From avant at sollegro.com Wed Apr 1 03:17:33 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:17:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese Message-ID: <20200331201733.Horde.uzIWuvpCPTWWImXK7ZvcnPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > I regarded all 'news' from authoritarian governments to be propaganda. > There is no way to validate anything. There are no independent sources to > quote. It's all what they want us to believe. Why are we even questioning > this? What is there to discuss? Maybe there is some truth mixed in with > the lies, but how could we ever tell? People who blow the whistle get > disappeared. That's what they call the Great Firewall of China. Authoritarianism aside, you don't get more Byzantine than a millennia-old civilization of over a billion people whose military doctrine is based on the premise: "All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near." While it is obvious that they are lying, the question that needs to be addressed is why? Furthermore, why is the western-left trying to paint every criticism or doubt of China's official story as racism, while being perfectly willing to throw the Republic of China aka Taiwan under the bus? Are not Taiwan and China peopled by the same race? Does not the left understand that race is a genetic thing while politics is memetic? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLvg0KnTKhU&t=1185s Stuart LaForge From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Wed Apr 1 06:52:39 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:22:39 +0530 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 ecology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. A few days ago, I was sitting in the backyard of my home, working away on my laptop. My father was sitting opposite of me. He whispered to me to stay still, and that there was a pair of monkeys behind me, on the wall. I turned and we quietly moved away. I had never encountered a monkey before. I like to stay outside at night sometimes and look at the stars. The sky is free of pollution and so clear these days. All the river cleaning projects needed lots of money are on hold because of covid, and the rivers are still getting cleaned up by themselves. People are sanitizing every surface they find, surely there must be some effects on the microbe level. Another thing I like about the lockdowns is that the noise levels, the constant chatter in the background of cars has been replaced with birds chirping. I find it very enjoyable. As for the spread of other viruses, since they are not alive when not with a host, they should not be impacted much. The house cats example would have some effect on the mouse population and that in turn could be a cascade effect. I'd like to hear more on this. &Kunvar. On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:00 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Maybe someone here or even in media has speculated on this... With over > seven billion people around, many of them discussing this pandemic, it?s > probably been mentioned but I?ve missed it. Anyhow, I was thinking that the > responses to the pandemic, especially physical distancing, must have an > impact on the wider ecosystem. After all, humans (and their pets*) > transport around microbes and macrobes (think of fleas and mites), and the > responses have mostly gone in the direction that would slow down if not > stop this living transportation network. > > I recall years ago reading about ?citizen scientists? swabbing railings in > major metro areas to see what kind of bacteria folks were carrying around. > I wonder if that sort of thing has been continued and if there are reliable > censuses that we can refer to to see if COVID-19 measures have radically > changed. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > > * I?m used to interacting with cats and dogs on my neighborhood. That?s > basically stopped due to physical distancing. In fact, many of my neighbors > now keep their cats indoors all day long. This not changes/stops the > transport network, but will likely mean less predation by house cats ? > another ecosystem impact. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 11:20:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:20:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 5:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Note that if the incessant political whining were to ever actually > cease, John could face defeat and even disqualification from the regional > Incessant Political Complaining competition, for failing to meet the > ?Incessant? requirement, explicitly spelled out in the rules.* Yeah, that's whiny old John Clark complaining and overreacting about trivial stuff like 770 Americans dying of COVID-19 yesterday alone. And as you point out, John Clark is arrogant too, but at least he's not as arrogant as some who think they understand how diseases can spread and grow exponentially better than every expert epidemiologist in the nation (if not the world) and insist that early testing is not vitally important. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 12:38:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:38:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Not Winning This Fight Message-ID: Not Winning This Fight John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 13:05:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 06:05:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 5:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Note that if the incessant political whining were to ever actually cease, John could face defeat and even disqualification from the regional Incessant Political Complaining competition, for failing to meet the ?Incessant? requirement, explicitly spelled out in the rules. >?Yeah, that's whiny old John Clark complaining and overreacting about trivial stuff like 770 Americans dying of COVID-19 yesterday alone. And as you point out, John Clark is arrogant too, but at least he's not as arrogant as some who think they understand how diseases can spread and grow exponentially better than every expert epidemiologist in the nation (if not the world) and insist that early testing is not vitally important. John K Clark The articles in the popular press often contain a few sentences about epidemiology, then immediately devolve into politics. When science is mixed with politics, the result is pure politics. Infection numbers are being tossed around rather than per capita rates. If we wish to speak of numbers of cases, we should be comparing Italy with the combination of the New England states, which total to somewhere around Italy?s 60 million. Or we should take our infection numbers and divide by about 6 to match Italy?s population. If we look at per capita infection rates, note that all of the western countries converge to similar values over time, regardless of what medical technologies or policies are in play. We see that infection per capita is way higher in densely packed areas (no surprise there) and way higher in wealthier areas (no surprise, more international travel.) Combine higher wealth with high population density, such as California?s Bay Area, or a cruise ship, and there you have the ideal place for contagion. I didn?t need to promote any particular politician or party to write the above, for that is nearly irrelevant. Diseases evolve. International travelers carry it across the globe to every country they visit. These isn?t much we can do about that, or rather not much we will do: every economy needs tourism. Tourists spend a lotta money everywhere they go. So? So have a home respirator for every member of the family, find all the ways to work and study from home, ramp up delivery of necessities, find other ways to have fun besides travelling abroad, compensate by looking into virtual travel where a camera bot walks around the big tourist attractors and lets you see what is there. Do those things, and you have done your part. I have done mine, except for the respirators. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:13:07 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:13:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 6:43 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > There would seem to be little reason to upload if the process didn't > make you more intelligent. > Lifespan extension, whether objective or subjective Avoiding death and disease Being able to acquire abilities not possible in the real world Those seem like good reasons to me. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:15:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:15:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: <20200331201733.Horde.uzIWuvpCPTWWImXK7ZvcnPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200331201733.Horde.uzIWuvpCPTWWImXK7ZvcnPH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: I am a member of 'the left' but do not support, nor have I even seen, reports of claimed racism re China. Why is it that only the weird, radical left gets any news coverage? I do know why. Why are they lying? You have to ask? First they want to blame the whole thing on us, and second they want to look as though they have done all the right things in confronting the virus threat. Why do the numbers even matter anyhow? bill w On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:34 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Bill Wallace: > > > I regarded all 'news' from authoritarian governments to be propaganda. > > There is no way to validate anything. There are no independent sources > to > > quote. It's all what they want us to believe. Why are we even > questioning > > this? What is there to discuss? Maybe there is some truth mixed in with > > the lies, but how could we ever tell? People who blow the whistle get > > disappeared. > > That's what they call the Great Firewall of China. Authoritarianism > aside, you don't get more Byzantine than a millennia-old civilization > of over a billion people whose military doctrine is based on the > premise: > > "All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we > must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when > we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far > away, we must make him believe we are near." > > While it is obvious that they are lying, the question that needs to be > addressed is why? Furthermore, why is the western-left trying to paint > every criticism or doubt of China's official story as racism, while > being perfectly willing to throw the Republic of China aka Taiwan > under the bus? Are not Taiwan and China peopled by the same race? Does > not the left understand that race is a genetic thing while politics is > memetic? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLvg0KnTKhU&t=1185s > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:17:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:17:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 ecology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pollution-free air, monkeys -it would be helpful to know where you are writing from. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:55 AM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Yes. A few days ago, I was sitting in the backyard of my home, working > away on my laptop. My father was sitting opposite of me. He whispered to me > to stay still, and that there was a pair of monkeys behind me, on the wall. > I turned and we quietly moved away. I had never encountered a monkey > before. I like to stay outside at night sometimes and look at the stars. > The sky is free of pollution and so clear these days. All the river > cleaning projects needed lots of money are on hold because of covid, and > the rivers are still getting cleaned up by themselves. > > People are sanitizing every surface they find, surely there must be some > effects on the microbe level. Another thing I like about the lockdowns is > that the noise levels, the constant chatter in the background of cars has > been replaced with birds chirping. I find it very enjoyable. > > As for the spread of other viruses, since they are not alive when not with > a host, they should not be impacted much. The house cats example would have > some effect on the mouse population and that in turn could be a cascade > effect. I'd like to hear more on this. > > &Kunvar. > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:00 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Maybe someone here or even in media has speculated on this... With over >> seven billion people around, many of them discussing this pandemic, it?s >> probably been mentioned but I?ve missed it. Anyhow, I was thinking that the >> responses to the pandemic, especially physical distancing, must have an >> impact on the wider ecosystem. After all, humans (and their pets*) >> transport around microbes and macrobes (think of fleas and mites), and the >> responses have mostly gone in the direction that would slow down if not >> stop this living transportation network. >> >> I recall years ago reading about ?citizen scientists? swabbing railings >> in major metro areas to see what kind of bacteria folks were carrying >> around. I wonder if that sort of thing has been continued and if there are >> reliable censuses that we can refer to to see if COVID-19 measures have >> radically changed. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books at: >> >> http://author.to/DanUst >> >> >> * I?m used to interacting with cats and dogs on my neighborhood. That?s >> basically stopped due to physical distancing. In fact, many of my neighbors >> now keep their cats indoors all day long. This not changes/stops the >> transport network, but will likely mean less predation by house cats ? >> another ecosystem impact. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:18:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:18:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If we look at per capita infection rates, note that all of the western > countries converge to similar values over time* https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/opinion/coronavirus-cases-united-states.html?algo=top_conversion&fellback=false&imp_id=786042648&imp_id=868864423&action=click&module=Most%20Popular&pgtype=Homepage John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 13:26:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:26:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just what is lost with uploading? bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 8:16 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 6:43 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> There would seem to be little reason to upload if the process didn't >> make you more intelligent. >> > > Lifespan extension, whether objective or subjective > Avoiding death and disease > Being able to acquire abilities not possible in the real world > > Those seem like good reasons to me. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 13:29:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 06:29:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virtual travel Message-ID: <009b01d60829$8a4c5cf0$9ee516d0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?Diseases evolve. International travelers carry it across the globe to every country they visit. There isn?t much we can do about that, or rather not much we will do: every economy needs tourism. Tourists spend a lotta money everywhere they go. So? find other ways to have fun besides travelling abroad, compensate by looking into virtual travel where a camera bot walks around the big tourist attractors and lets you see what is there?spike I am not an international traveler. Been to Canada on road trips twice, had a good time, never anywhere else. I would like to go traipse about Europe at some point, perhaps do the Sound of Music tour, genealogy, that kinda thing, so I listen carefully to my friends who mostly have done some international travel, see if I can improve on their experience. I have no wealthy friends, but all are doing well enough that it was typical for them to tour Europe for the first time in their mid fifties, after their children were in college. Mine is in grade 8, so I have time. A persistent message I have heard from those who do package-deal tours is that they are always too crowded and too hurried. They go see that Angelo feller?s marble statue or the Mona Lisa, but a million others want to see that too, so it is shoulder to shoulder, like being in a cattle chute, not enough time, too many others. The travel brochure showed one person standing there admiring it. They paid, they went, joined a stampede eager to glance over, check off a box, OK been there saw it let?s go watch football. My friends wanted to see the art works. OK so now we can see that it isn?t a good idea to join a tourist stampede and won?t be again in the easily foreseeable. So how can we compensate for that? I can imagine a form of virtual tourism which not only mimics the experience, in some ways it exceeds it. For instance, take the famous marble statue Michael created. Wait until all the touristas go away, then set up a kind of controllable camera where a prole can see everywhere on that art work, in places you can?t see if you are there in person and can?t see even if a stampede of football fans isn?t herding you along. What does the top of David?s head look like? To what level of detail did the artist find it necessary to carve hair? A virtual tour could answer that. Being there would merely give you practice mooing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 13:58:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 06:58:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d301d6082d$a86fd460$f94f7d20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > If we look at per capita infection rates, note that all of the western countries converge to similar values over time https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/opinion/coronavirus-cases-united-states.html?algo=top_conversion &fellback=false&imp_id=786042648&imp_id=868864423&action=click&module=Most%20Popular&pgtype=Homepage John K Clark That chart shows China with the lowest per capita rate about a tenth the infection rate of the US, US with the second lowest, Spain about 4 times higher and Italy about 3 times higher. Switzerland is another big loser here, not on the chart, with about 3.3 times higher infection rate than the US. Conclusion: don?t travel to Switzerland, France, Germany, Spain or Austria, and only travel to China if you believe their numbers (I don?t.) The sub-headline of the article is the sentence ?this chart shows why.? But that chart didn?t show why because it wasn?t in per-capita infection rates. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 14:17:21 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:17:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Just what is lost with uploading? > We don't know because it hasn't been done and it depends a lot on the details of the implementation. Potentially nothing. We could be uploads right now. In an environment that allows things to be dramatically different than the real world, you'd be giving up familiarity, stability, predictability, etc. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 14:24:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:24:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice Message-ID: <00eb01d60831$35fa1590$a1ee40b0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >... Are not Taiwan and China peopled by the same race? Does not the left understand that race is a genetic thing while politics is memetic? Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Stuart, the concept of race was once thought to be genetic, but it generally isn't now. We have found ways to stretch the definition of the term "race" to include nationalities, religions, economic classes and even philosophies. I like the new way better, for it makes race a choice. We live in times when gender has become a choice, when that is very clearly genetic (every diploid person is either XX or XY.) With modern DNA tests, we have discovered that race cannot be determined unambiguously by even a complete DNA sequence. So... we have introduced such concepts as Hispanic as a race, but does not necessarily include all people born in... Spain. Figure that one out. After doing the commercial 60 dollar DNA test, I discovered I am 1/32 African American. None of us even knew. But we traced it back and found where it came from (an apparent rape during the Civil War.) So now I can continue to present as white if I wish, or otherwise. For me, and for most people who have their DNA results in hand, race is a choice. The 2020 census will have me as multi-racial and gender unknown (how the heck should I know what gender I am (I feel like a man (and people tell me I am a man (what what about deep inside? (for we live in times when a person's true gender cannot be determined in a nudist colony while he or she is in the process of giving birth (and perhaps I am not sufficiently in touch with my inner innerness (ya never really know.)))))) Gender is now a choice, and race certainly has been for a long time. spike From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 14:29:58 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:29:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] virtual travel In-Reply-To: <009b01d60829$8a4c5cf0$9ee516d0$@rainier66.com> References: <009b01d60829$8a4c5cf0$9ee516d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > OK so now we can see that it isn?t a good idea to join a tourist stampede > and won?t be again in the easily foreseeable. So how can we compensate for > that? I can imagine a form of virtual tourism which not only mimics the > experience, in some ways it exceeds it. For instance, take the famous > marble statue Michael created. Wait until all the touristas go away, then > set up a kind of controllable camera where a prole can see everywhere on > that art work, in places you can?t see if you are there in person and can?t > see even if a stampede of football fans isn?t herding you along. What does > the top of David?s head look like? To what level of detail did the artist > find it necessary to carve hair? A virtual tour could answer that. Being > there would merely give you practice mooing. > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=virtual+museum+tours -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 14:57:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:57:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel Message-ID: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] virtual travel On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: OK so now we can see that it isn?t a good idea to join a tourist stampede and won?t be again in the easily foreseeable. So how can we compensate for that? I can imagine a form of virtual tourism which not only mimics the experience, in some ways it exceeds it? A virtual tour could answer that. Being there would merely give you practice mooing. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=virtual+museum+tours -Dave OK cool thanks for that Dave. This suggests the next question. As we temporarily suspend our civilization, of course the economy takes a lightning-bolt hit, even as we discover far more efficient new ways to take care of our necessities. How much of our economy is completely dependent on inefficiencies? I am already seeing the answer to that in our education system: most of it. Do let us focus on education as a sub-economy. We can already see that most of the time spent in physical school is mostly a waste, if we consider education as the primary desired end-state. Is it? If so, virtual education is available, has been for a long time and is vastly superior to anything the students can get in school, along with being far cheaper and safer. Socialization is more difficult if done virtually of course. The teachers union is not liking this one bit, for perfectly understandable reasons. I am doing a project for our local superintendent: collecting parent-eye view feedback on virtual learning. The one overwhelming message coming thru loud and clear: the academically rich are getting dramatically richer, the academically otherwise are getting little or nothing. Sal Kahn started his online Academy as a humanitarian effort to close the global academic achievement gap. The gap he hoped to narrow and bridge with the virtual classroom opens to a yawning chasm. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:19:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:19:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: 'vastly superior' - research studies, please. I will never be convinced that for some topics, some students, a live person is not essential. I answer thousands of questions on Quora and if the person who wrote the question could be questioned there are many times I would do so, as the question doesn't make sense, is vague, etc. If we could talk we could straighten it out. I cannot imagine what an AI would do with these questions. Crash, I think. I will refer again to the TV-taught psych 101 course I monitored. The students hated it. OK, so the teacher was boring and a better personality would have had better ratings, I suppose. the academically rich are getting dramatically richer, the academically otherwise are getting little or nothing. Did you just contradict your 'vastly superior' statement? For psych 101 and some others, most of the A students and some of the B students just don't need to come to class if all you want from them is good test scores. Is that all we want from students? What about developing the ability to interact with a superior? How to ask questions is far more important than a bunch of rote-memorized answers. What about collaborative learning? Putting people in groups to solve problems and learn to interact with peers? (could add, perhaps, pages of stuff to this) Virtual learning has a big place, but it's not the only one for sure. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 10:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dave Sill via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] virtual travel > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > OK so now we can see that it isn?t a good idea to join a tourist stampede > and won?t be again in the easily foreseeable. So how can we compensate for > that? I can imagine a form of virtual tourism which not only mimics the > experience, in some ways it exceeds it? A virtual tour could answer that. > Being there would merely give you practice mooing. > > > > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=virtual+museum+tours > > > > -Dave > > > > OK cool thanks for that Dave. > > > > This suggests the next question. As we temporarily suspend our > civilization, of course the economy takes a lightning-bolt hit, even as we > discover far more efficient new ways to take care of our necessities. > > > > How much of our economy is completely dependent on inefficiencies? I am > already seeing the answer to that in our education system: most of it. > > > > Do let us focus on education as a sub-economy. We can already see that > most of the time spent in physical school is mostly a waste, if we consider > education as the primary desired end-state. Is it? If so, virtual > education is available, has been for a long time and is vastly superior to > anything the students can get in school, along with being far cheaper and > safer. Socialization is more difficult if done virtually of course. > > > > The teachers union is not liking this one bit, for perfectly > understandable reasons. > > > > I am doing a project for our local superintendent: collecting parent-eye > view feedback on virtual learning. The one overwhelming message coming > thru loud and clear: the academically rich are getting dramatically richer, > the academically otherwise are getting little or nothing. > > > > Sal Kahn started his online Academy as a humanitarian effort to close the > global academic achievement gap. The gap he hoped to narrow and bridge > with the virtual classroom opens to a yawning chasm. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:27:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:27:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virtual travel In-Reply-To: <009b01d60829$8a4c5cf0$9ee516d0$@rainier66.com> References: <009b01d60829$8a4c5cf0$9ee516d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There is a copy of David in a gay bar in Las Vegas. Has a fig leaf. Once an hour the fig leaf is raised to wild applause. Just some of my trivia. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 8:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > >?Diseases evolve. International travelers carry it across the globe to > every country they visit. There isn?t much we can do about that, or rather > not much we will do: every economy needs tourism. Tourists spend a lotta > money everywhere they go. So? find other ways to have fun besides > travelling abroad, compensate by looking into virtual travel where a camera > bot walks around the big tourist attractors and lets you see what is > there?spike > > > > I am not an international traveler. Been to Canada on road trips twice, > had a good time, never anywhere else. I would like to go traipse about > Europe at some point, perhaps do the Sound of Music tour, genealogy, that > kinda thing, so I listen carefully to my friends who mostly have done some > international travel, see if I can improve on their experience. > > > > I have no wealthy friends, but all are doing well enough that it was > typical for them to tour Europe for the first time in their mid fifties, > after their children were in college. Mine is in grade 8, so I have time. > > > > A persistent message I have heard from those who do package-deal tours is > that they are always too crowded and too hurried. They go see that Angelo > feller?s marble statue or the Mona Lisa, but a million others want to see > that too, so it is shoulder to shoulder, like being in a cattle chute, not > enough time, too many others. The travel brochure showed one person > standing there admiring it. They paid, they went, joined a stampede eager > to glance over, check off a box, OK been there saw it let?s go watch > football. My friends wanted to see the art works. > > > > OK so now we can see that it isn?t a good idea to join a tourist stampede > and won?t be again in the easily foreseeable. So how can we compensate for > that? I can imagine a form of virtual tourism which not only mimics the > experience, in some ways it exceeds it. For instance, take the famous > marble statue Michael created. Wait until all the touristas go away, then > set up a kind of controllable camera where a prole can see everywhere on > that art work, in places you can?t see if you are there in person and can?t > see even if a stampede of football fans isn?t herding you along. What does > the top of David?s head look like? To what level of detail did the artist > find it necessary to carve hair? A virtual tour could answer that. Being > there would merely give you practice mooing. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:29:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:29:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oddly, I am still thinking about golf - being somewhere in person and doing something physical, perhaps through an avatar if uploaded. If we needed avatars for certain experiences then that's a downside. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:20 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Just what is lost with uploading? >> > > We don't know because it hasn't been done and it depends a lot on the > details of the implementation. > > Potentially nothing. We could be uploads right now. > > In an environment that allows things to be dramatically different than the > real world, you'd be giving up familiarity, stability, predictability, etc. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:35:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:35:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <00eb01d60831$35fa1590$a1ee40b0$@rainier66.com> References: <00eb01d60831$35fa1590$a1ee40b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Congratulations! You are just like the character in Sinclair Lewis' Kingsblood Royal, who discovered he is 1/32 black. Despite being red-headed and freckled, he was scorned by society after that fact is discovered. Nobel Prize More trivia. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:29 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > > > >... Are not Taiwan and China peopled by the same race? Does not the left > understand that race is a genetic thing while politics is memetic? Stuart > LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > > Stuart, the concept of race was once thought to be genetic, but it > generally > isn't now. We have found ways to stretch the definition of the term "race" > to include nationalities, religions, economic classes and even > philosophies. > I like the new way better, for it makes race a choice. We live in times > when gender has become a choice, when that is very clearly genetic (every > diploid person is either XX or XY.) > > With modern DNA tests, we have discovered that race cannot be determined > unambiguously by even a complete DNA sequence. > > So... we have introduced such concepts as Hispanic as a race, but does not > necessarily include all people born in... Spain. Figure that one out. > > After doing the commercial 60 dollar DNA test, I discovered I am 1/32 > African American. None of us even knew. But we traced it back and found > where it came from (an apparent rape during the Civil War.) So now I can > continue to present as white if I wish, or otherwise. For me, and for most > people who have their DNA results in hand, race is a choice. > > The 2020 census will have me as multi-racial and gender unknown (how the > heck should I know what gender I am (I feel like a man (and people tell me > I > am a man (what what about deep inside? (for we live in times when a > person's true gender cannot be determined in a nudist colony while he or > she > is in the process of giving birth (and perhaps I am not sufficiently in > touch with my inner innerness (ya never really know.)))))) > > Gender is now a choice, and race certainly has been for a long time. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:47:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:47:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: <00d301d6082d$a86fd460$f94f7d20$@rainier66.com> References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d6082d$a86fd460$f94f7d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 10:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> that chart didn?t show why because it wasn?t in per-capita infection > rates.* > Speaking of per-capita, we don't know the true number of people in the USA that are infected because the USA has done far fewer testing per-capita than any other modern industrial nation and started doing them far later, even later and fewer than some third world nations. As a result we're flying blind, all we have is a lower bound. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:57:02 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:57:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads Message-ID: Dave Sill wrote: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 6:43 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There would seem to be little reason to upload if the process didn't > make you more intelligent. > > Lifespan extension, whether objective or subjective > Avoiding death and disease > Being able to acquire abilities not possible in the real world > Those seem like good reasons to me. Let's put it this way. Can you imagine any kind of upload process that could not make you more intelligent? Keith From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 16:11:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:11:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017e01d60840$3c7fdcb0$b57f9610$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel >?'vastly superior' - research studies, please. I will never be convinced that for some topics, some students, a live person is not essential? Agreed, no dispute there at all. For subjective fields of learning I do agree collaborative efforts and personal interactions are required (humans in physical contact, eeewww, ick, take me away Calgon.) The fields of study which interest me and those which I know about are mostly solitary vices. Interaction with other humans often involves reading what someone wrote a century ago, such as the marvelous accomplishment of Andrey Markov, which has kept my son and me entertained for the past week: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Markov >?I answer thousands of questions on Quora? BillW I am one of your followers over there. I haven?t posted anything on your responses, but might eventually do so if I deem myself sufficiently knowledgeable on the topic. Quora has noted the number of responses to my posts there and have offered to pay me a pittance for each one, if I register. So now I am a professional internet influencer, or would be if I were to follow thru with registration, which I will not do. Reason: I have casually mentioned what firearms I own in that forum. I do not wish the world knowing who I am or being able to figure out where I live: it makes me a burglary target. >?I will refer again to the TV-taught psych 101 course I monitored. The students hated it. If you have ever tried to watch even excellent lectures, such as those available thru Great Courses, https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/ you already know why: a video tape of a classroom lecture introduces all the traditional shortcomings of any other course taught in a classroom with few advantages. >>?the academically rich are getting dramatically richer, the academically otherwise are getting little or nothing. >?Did you just contradict your 'vastly superior' statement? Not at all. If one?s goal is increasing the average, then online instruction is superior. If one?s goal is reducing the standard deviation of the bell curve inherent in education, then online learning is not only a failure, it is a catastrophe. If one is over on the right side of the bell curve, online education pushes one farther to the right. In that sense it is vastly superior: it is more concentrated and more focused learning. >?For psych 101 and some others, most of the A students and some of the B students just don't need to come to class if all you want from them is good test scores. Is that all we want from students? Sure. I am not suggesting I know how to help the unmotivated or under-skilled. In my educational volunteer efforts, I work with the highly motivated highly skilled students only, for that is the only area in which I have anything to offer. I have been repeatedly asked to help struggling students, and have repeatedly turned down those opportunities. Reason: I don?t know how. I justify my existence however, since there are other volunteers who are willing and able to help struggling students, along with many local businesses in tutoring. I modestly claim that there are very few volunteers available who know how to create a Markov Chain, derive a transition matrix from it, calculate an absorbing matrix, take the determinant and find the answer. I might be the only one of the volunteers who knows how to do that. So? I do. >?What about developing the ability to interact with a superior? I see your point. If my students work at it, they are the superior. They need to interact with inferiors. >?Virtual learning has a big place, but it's not the only one for sure. bill w For sure. No argument there. This loops all the way back to the efficiency available to us in education, at least in some areas. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:21:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:21:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let's put it this way. Can you imagine any kind of upload process that could not make you more intelligent? Keith I have assumed that we are talking about exact and complete copies. I cannot see how that changes anything without modifying the words 'exact' and 'complete'. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 11:11 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dave Sill wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 6:43 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > There would seem to be little reason to upload if the process didn't > > make you more intelligent. > > > > > Lifespan extension, whether objective or subjective > > Avoiding death and disease > > Being able to acquire abilities not possible in the real world > > > Those seem like good reasons to me. > > Let's put it this way. Can you imagine any kind of upload process > that could not make you more intelligent? > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 16:22:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:22:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d6082d$a86fd460$f94f7d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018501d60841$b1e35350$15a9f9f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > that chart didn?t show why because it wasn?t in per-capita infection rates. Speaking of per-capita, we don't know the true number of people in the USA that are infected because the USA has done far fewer testing per-capita than any other modern industrial nation and started doing them far later, even later and fewer than some third world nations. As a result we're flying blind, all we have is a lower bound. John K Clark Agreed. Eventually we will be able to estimate it by looking at mortality above background. We don?t know and will not know mortality rates in China, but in Europe we will. My theory is that we are seeing that infection rates per capita is mostly a function of a country?s wealth. People who have a ton of money spend it traveling internationally and domestically, where they catch stuff, then bring in home to their poorer brethren. I am a poorer brethra (well, the singular damn well should be brethra (or the plural should be brothers (one or the other.))) Our world has grown beyond national boundaries. People with money can go anywhere they want. We are already seeing that contagion follows big careless celebrations such as Mardi Gras and Spring break at the beach, neither of which the federal government controls. We can study per capita infection rates for those who attended these ill-advised activities if we wish. We can study contagion as a function of lifestyle choices (well, imagine that.) If we choose that route however, the result could be tragic: we risk having a perfectly good crisis go to waste. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:32:21 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:32:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > This suggests the next question. As we temporarily suspend our > civilization, of course the economy takes a lightning-bolt hit, even as we > discover far more efficient new ways to take care of our necessities. > > > > How much of our economy is completely dependent on inefficiencies? > Too much. If we don't start correcting that gradually then we're in for collapse...if it's even avoidable. I am already seeing the answer to that in our education system: most of it. > Agreed. Do let us focus on education as a sub-economy. We can already see that > most of the time spent in physical school is mostly a waste, if we consider > education as the primary desired end-state. Is it? > I think indoctrination is a good part of it. > I am doing a project for our local superintendent: collecting parent-eye > view feedback on virtual learning. The one overwhelming message coming > thru loud and clear: the academically rich are getting dramatically richer, > the academically otherwise are getting little or nothing. > > > > Sal Kahn started his online Academy as a humanitarian effort to close the > global academic achievement gap. The gap he hoped to narrow and bridge > with the virtual classroom opens to a yawning chasm. > I think we can narrow the opportunity gap, but the achievement gap will vary with the abilities and motivation of our children. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Apr 1 16:32:52 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 17:32:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a9fb435-aaa2-d4c3-2481-7caeee74e5ea@zaiboc.net> On 01/04/2020 16:36, billw asked: > Just what is lost with uploading? Oh, loads of things! Inevitable decay and death, the inability to access (and reversibly modify) your inner workings, the limitations of biological senses, lack of a means to back-up your mind and potentially restore it at a later date, unavoidable pain and suffering, a physiology that you can't really control, an unchosen morphology, an inability to easily and accurately store any memory, including memories of thought processes, meaning that you can't reliably trace a thought back to its origins. There are more things that are lost with uploading, but those are a few that occur to me straight away. Those are some negative things that are lost. Are there any positive things that would be lost? Hmm, nothing comes immediately to mind. I'll think about it and post later if any occur to me. -- Ben Zaiboc From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:33:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:33:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: <017e01d60840$3c7fdcb0$b57f9610$@rainier66.com> References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> <017e01d60840$3c7fdcb0$b57f9610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Bear Bryant once said that he thought that he was a better coach of the average player than of the great player. I was the reverse. My usual problem was assuming too much of the students, as I found out on the tests. A colleague of mine had to hand over a class to me - gall bladder operation. They were due for a test on reliability and they flunked very badly. She assumed too much. A related problem: I am type A - impatient. Too impatient for the struggling student. Those students I tried to get mentors for. Are you saying that online education is mostly for the people to the right in the distribution? If so, then different teachers or methods or something could be provided for those to the left. One things about this: the curve has changed along the way, as those to the left are dropping out at every level (you can flunk first grade - "one, two, three, many"). So the whole curve shifts right as time goes on. It, just guessing, probably becomes skewed to the left rather than maintaining a normal shape. I tried to 'follow' someone on Quora and never did get anything about her in my email. I am glad you are following and wish you would comment. Do my answers show up in your email. or what? bill w - more later maybe on this topic On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 11:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel > > > > >?'vastly superior' - research studies, please. I will never be > convinced that for some topics, some students, a live person is not > essential? > > > > Agreed, no dispute there at all. For subjective fields of learning I do > agree collaborative efforts and personal interactions are required (humans > in physical contact, eeewww, ick, take me away Calgon.) > > > > The fields of study which interest me and those which I know about are > mostly solitary vices. Interaction with other humans often involves > reading what someone wrote a century ago, such as the marvelous > accomplishment of Andrey Markov, which has kept my son and me entertained > for the past week: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Markov > > > > >?I answer thousands of questions on Quora? > > > > BillW I am one of your followers over there. I haven?t posted anything on > your responses, but might eventually do so if I deem myself sufficiently > knowledgeable on the topic. > > > > Quora has noted the number of responses to my posts there and have offered > to pay me a pittance for each one, if I register. So now I am a > professional internet influencer, or would be if I were to follow thru with > registration, which I will not do. Reason: I have casually mentioned what > firearms I own in that forum. I do not wish the world knowing who I am or > being able to figure out where I live: it makes me a burglary target. > > > > >?I will refer again to the TV-taught psych 101 course I monitored. The > students hated it. > > > > If you have ever tried to watch even excellent lectures, such as those > available thru Great Courses, > > > > https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/ > > > > you already know why: a video tape of a classroom lecture introduces all > the traditional shortcomings of any other course taught in a classroom with > few advantages. > > > > >>?the academically rich are getting dramatically richer, the > academically otherwise are getting little or nothing. > > > > >?Did you just contradict your 'vastly superior' statement? > > > > Not at all. If one?s goal is increasing the average, then online > instruction is superior. If one?s goal is reducing the standard deviation > of the bell curve inherent in education, then online learning is not only a > failure, it is a catastrophe. If one is over on the right side of the bell > curve, online education pushes one farther to the right. In that sense it > is vastly superior: it is more concentrated and more focused learning. > > > > >?For psych 101 and some others, most of the A students and some of the B > students just don't need to come to class if all you want from them is good > test scores. Is that all we want from students? > > > > Sure. I am not suggesting I know how to help the unmotivated or > under-skilled. In my educational volunteer efforts, I work with the highly > motivated highly skilled students only, for that is the only area in which > I have anything to offer. I have been repeatedly asked to help struggling > students, and have repeatedly turned down those opportunities. Reason: I > don?t know how. > > > > I justify my existence however, since there are other volunteers who are > willing and able to help struggling students, along with many local > businesses in tutoring. I modestly claim that there are very few > volunteers available who know how to create a Markov Chain, derive a > transition matrix from it, calculate an absorbing matrix, take the > determinant and find the answer. I might be the only one of the volunteers > who knows how to do that. So? I do. > > > > >?What about developing the ability to interact with a superior? > > > > I see your point. If my students work at it, they are the superior. They > need to interact with inferiors. > > > > >?Virtual learning has a big place, but it's not the only one for sure. bill > w > > > > For sure. No argument there. > > > > This loops all the way back to the efficiency available to us in > education, at least in some areas. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:36:29 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:36:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d6082d$a86fd460$f94f7d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This is true. Every piece of data we are given in the media is pure garbage, and the academic numbers, even fully qualified, aren't much better, Fivethirtyeight ran an [uncharacteristically for them, these days] excellent piece on the difficulties in creating a data model for COVID that isn't a pure, panic-mongering, stab in the dark. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-freaking-hard-to-make-a-good-covid-19-model/ Fortunately, there's a lot of media organizations form whom panic-mongering is their bread and butter, so we have no shortage of models to work with, all of which are terrible. The correct response to complete ignorance is a the null hypothesis, not the worst-case scenario. But worst-case scenarios get WAY more clicks.. So here we are. On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 10:01 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 10:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> *> that chart didn?t show why because it wasn?t in per-capita infection >> rates.* >> > > Speaking of per-capita, we don't know the true number of people in the USA > that are infected because the USA has done far fewer testing per-capita > than any other modern industrial nation and started doing them far later, > even later and fewer than some third world nations. As a result we're > flying blind, all we have is a lower bound. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:39:50 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:39:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 11:21 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > 'vastly superior' - research studies, please. I will never be > convinced that for some topics, some students, a live person is not > essential. > "Virtual" doesn't mean prerecorded or AI-taught. Real human teachers can be available as needed. I answer thousands of questions on Quora and if the person who wrote the > question could be questioned there are many times I would do so, as the > question doesn't make sense, is vague, etc. If we could talk we could > straighten it out. I cannot imagine what an AI would do with these > questions. Crash, I think. > Quora should have a way for questioners and answerers to interact. > I will refer again to the TV-taught psych 101 course I monitored. The > students hated it. OK, so the teacher was boring and a better personality > would have had better ratings, I suppose. > We can do much better than televising poor instructors. For psych 101 and some others, most of the A students and some of the B > students just don't need to come to class if all you want from them is good > test scores. Is that all we want from students? What about developing the > ability to interact with a superior? How to ask questions is far more > important than a bunch of rote-memorized answers. What about collaborative > learning? Putting people in groups to solve problems and learn to interact > with peers? (could add, perhaps, pages of stuff to this) > All of that can be done remotely, too. Virtual learning has a big place, but it's not the only one for sure. > Of course. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:42:05 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:42:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 11:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Oddly, I am still thinking about golf - being somewhere in person and > doing something physical, perhaps through an avatar if uploaded. If we > needed avatars for certain experiences then that's a downside. > You think simulations capable of supporting human-level entities can't simulate golf? :-) Golf is a cakewalk compared simulating people. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:42:48 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:42:48 -0600 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: <018501d60841$b1e35350$15a9f9f0$@rainier66.com> References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d6082d$a86fd460$f94f7d20$@rainier66.com> <018501d60841$b1e35350$15a9f9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >...If we choose that route however, the result could be tragic: we risk having a perfectly good crisis go to waste. "Mr. Dascombe, what we need right now is a clear message to the people of the country! This message should be read in every newspaper, heard on every radio, seen on every television. This message must resound throughout the ENTIRE INTERLINK! I want this country to realize that we stand on the edge of oblivion! I want every man, woman, and child to understand how close we are to chaos! I WANT EVERYONE to remember *WHY THEY NEED US*!" On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 10:34 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > *> **that chart didn?t show why because it wasn?t in per-capita infection > rates.* > > > > Speaking of per-capita, we don't know the true number of people in the USA > that are infected because the USA has done far fewer testing per-capita > than any other modern industrial nation and started doing them far later, > even later and fewer than some third world nations. As a result we're > flying blind, all we have is a lower bound. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > Agreed. Eventually we will be able to estimate it by looking at mortality > above background. We don?t know and will not know mortality rates in > China, but in Europe we will. > > > > My theory is that we are seeing that infection rates per capita is mostly > a function of a country?s wealth. People who have a ton of money spend it > traveling internationally and domestically, where they catch stuff, then > bring in home to their poorer brethren. I am a poorer brethra (well, the > singular damn well should be brethra (or the plural should be brothers (one > or the other.))) > > > > Our world has grown beyond national boundaries. People with money can go > anywhere they want. We are already seeing that contagion follows big > careless celebrations such as Mardi Gras and Spring break at the beach, > neither of which the federal government controls. We can study per capita > infection rates for those who attended these ill-advised activities if we > wish. We can study contagion as a function of lifestyle choices (well, > imagine that.) If we choose that route however, the result could be > tragic: we risk having a perfectly good crisis go to waste. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:43:53 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:43:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 12:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dave Sill wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 6:43 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > There would seem to be little reason to upload if the process didn't > > make you more intelligent. > > > > > Lifespan extension, whether objective or subjective > > Avoiding death and disease > > Being able to acquire abilities not possible in the real world > > > Those seem like good reasons to me. > > Let's put it this way. Can you imagine any kind of upload process > that could not make you more intelligent? > Sure, boosting intelligence should be easy, if desired. But that's not the only, or even the best, reason to upload. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:51:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:51:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think we can narrow the opportunity gap, but the achievement gap will vary with the abilities and motivation of our children. -Dave The far left has a problem - it's all nurture and no nature. Assuming that people of every achievement level have the same aptitude level is just absurd, and leads to educational practices that are equally absurd. "If they are not getting better then we are doing something wrong." WRONG. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 11:43 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> This suggests the next question. As we temporarily suspend our >> civilization, of course the economy takes a lightning-bolt hit, even as we >> discover far more efficient new ways to take care of our necessities. >> >> >> >> How much of our economy is completely dependent on inefficiencies? >> > > Too much. If we don't start correcting that gradually then we're in for > collapse...if it's even avoidable. > > I am already seeing the answer to that in our education system: most of >> it. >> > > Agreed. > > Do let us focus on education as a sub-economy. We can already see that >> most of the time spent in physical school is mostly a waste, if we consider >> education as the primary desired end-state. Is it? >> > > I think indoctrination is a good part of it. > > >> I am doing a project for our local superintendent: collecting parent-eye >> view feedback on virtual learning. The one overwhelming message coming >> thru loud and clear: the academically rich are getting dramatically richer, >> the academically otherwise are getting little or nothing. >> >> >> >> Sal Kahn started his online Academy as a humanitarian effort to close the >> global academic achievement gap. The gap he hoped to narrow and bridge >> with the virtual classroom opens to a yawning chasm. >> > > I think we can narrow the opportunity gap, but the achievement gap will > vary with the abilities and motivation of our children. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 16:53:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:53:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: <8a9fb435-aaa2-d4c3-2481-7caeee74e5ea@zaiboc.net> References: <8a9fb435-aaa2-d4c3-2481-7caeee74e5ea@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Those are some negative things that are lost. Are there any positive things that would be lost? Hmm, nothing comes immediately to mind. I'll think about it and post later if any occur to me. -- Ben Zaiboc *That's what I was really asking. bill w* On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 11:51 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 01/04/2020 16:36, billw asked: > > Just what is lost with uploading? > > Oh, loads of things! > > Inevitable decay and death, the inability to access (and reversibly > modify) your inner workings, the limitations of biological senses, lack > of a means to back-up your mind and potentially restore it at a later > date, unavoidable pain and suffering, a physiology that you can't really > control, an unchosen morphology, an inability to easily and accurately > store any memory, including memories of thought processes, meaning that > you can't reliably trace a thought back to its origins. > > There are more things that are lost with uploading, but those are a few > that occur to me straight away. > > Those are some negative things that are lost. Are there any positive > things that would be lost? Hmm, nothing comes immediately to mind. I'll > think about it and post later if any occur to me. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 17:00:10 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:00:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: <018501d60841$b1e35350$15a9f9f0$@rainier66.com> References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d6082d$a86fd460$f94f7d20$@rainier66.com> <018501d60841$b1e35350$15a9f9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 12:35 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> My theory is that we are seeing that infection rates per capita is > mostly a function of a country?s wealth.* Your theory can't explain South Korea or Japan or Hong Kong or Kuwait or New Zealand or Singapore. And once a country has more than a few hundred cases it's far too late to expect that closing the borders would have any significant effect on the rate of growth of the epidemic. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Apr 1 17:00:56 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 18:00:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/04/2020 16:36, billw wrote: > Oddly, I am still thinking about golf - being somewhere in person and > doing something physical, perhaps through an avatar if uploaded. If we > needed avatars for certain experiences then that's a downside Ah, obvously I misunderstood something from one of your earlier posts, when you said something like 'heaven, but without golf'. I assumed from that that like me, you didn't like golf. It seems you do. And it seems you think that an upload wouldn't be able to play golf, if they wanted to. Is that correct? If so, it seems that some fundamental concepts about uploading are being missed here. Although I don't like golf, I do like skiing, and snowboarding. One of the things that I'd like to do if I'm ever uploaded, is to snowboard down Mt. Everest. I expect that constructing the environment and tweaking the physics engine would be almost as enjoyable as the actual experience (maybe that's just me). I don't expect to need an avatar. The whole thing would be entirely virtual, and, provided I got the programming right, would also be more 'real' (as well as more satisfying, I'm sure) than the real thing. It seems you think, or suspect, that being an upload and the experience of 'being somewhere in person and doing something physical' are incompatible? If I'm right about this, would you mind explaining why? because I just don't get it, and it's probably important to understand. Maybe I'm missing something important about why more people aren't enthusiastic about uploading. -- Ben Zaiboc From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 17:07:17 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:07:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice Message-ID: wrote: > Stuart, the concept of race was once thought to be genetic, but it generally isn't now. That's really silly. We can distinguish race and measure the average differences between races. We know where some of those differences came from, there was intense selection in the UK over a 400 year period for the psychological traits that led to wealth. I think this happened widely in northwest Europe, Clark thinks the same selection happened in China and Japan, less intense but for a longer time. Not that this means much in the long term as humans get control of their DNA, but it does explain a lot of the present situations worldwide as the outcome of intense genetic selection. Keith From interzone at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 17:08:20 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:08:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d6082d$a86fd460$f94f7d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: +1. I'll have to check out the 538 piece. I'm shocked they're still putting out anything of value these days. On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:06 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This is true. Every piece of data we are given in the media is pure > garbage, and the academic numbers, even fully qualified, aren't much better, > > Fivethirtyeight ran an [uncharacteristically for them, these days] > excellent piece on the difficulties in creating a data model for COVID that > isn't a pure, panic-mongering, stab in the dark. > > > https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-freaking-hard-to-make-a-good-covid-19-model/ > > > Fortunately, there's a lot of media organizations form whom > panic-mongering is their bread and butter, so we have no shortage of models > to work with, all of which are terrible. > > The correct response to complete ignorance is a the null hypothesis, not > the worst-case scenario. But worst-case scenarios get WAY more clicks.. So > here we are. > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 10:01 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 10:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >>> *> that chart didn?t show why because it wasn?t in per-capita infection >>> rates.* >>> >> >> Speaking of per-capita, we don't know the true number of people in the >> USA that are infected because the USA has done far fewer testing per-capita >> than any other modern industrial nation and started doing them far later, >> even later and fewer than some third world nations. As a result we're >> flying blind, all we have is a lower bound. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 17:47:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:47:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans have died from COVID-19 than the Iraq War Message-ID: Another milestone, 4418 Americans died in the Iraq War and as of today at 17 :34 GMT 4,516 Americans have died from COVID-19. The US had its first death from COVID-19 on March 1, so in one month it has managed to kill more Americans than the Iraq war has in two decades, and it has almost certainly destroyed more wealth too. I'm old enough to have been alive during the administration of Lyndon Johnson and at the time I was certain he would be the worst president in my lifetime, but one can be absolutely positively 100% certain of something and still be dead wrong, and a few years later George W Bush came along and showed me that I was indeed dead wrong. And now I've been proven to be wrong yet again. I guess there is just no bottom to bad. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 18:04:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:04:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> <017e01d60840$3c7fdcb0$b57f9610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <021101d6084f$f62affa0$e280fee0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel Bear Bryant once said that he thought that he was a better coach of the average player than of the great player? Ja that isn?t me. I am the average coach of the greatest players. I am the averagest person you ever saw, averager than thou (I miss the word thou (now seldom used outside of a few oddball competitions (I go about uttering the word thou for no apparent reason (strolling about uttering thou thou thou thou... (passersby are so puzzled (and mildly alarmed at my apparent insanity (but I digress.))))))) We have plenty of contests on the two extremes, who can jump the highest and who can sink the ball in the hole with the fewest strokes and so on, but every sport has a bell curve in performance and someone hasta be the most in the center, right at the peak of the performance bell curve, looking down in a sense at those who suck the most and those who suck the least, ja? That person is the averagest of all, the cee-est of the c students. We tried to have a contest to see who was the most average person, but it didn?t work out for us: everyone chose their favored event, won that, so it was a multiple tie. Naturally the logical champion of average would go to whoever was the most average in the greatest number of events. Then he or she would become the multi-athlon average-lete. I was getting creamed in that, but then I pointed out the obvious: the most average-lete would be one who is most average, not in a single event nor the greatest number of events, but rather the most average in the most average number of events. Chaos ensued. Chaos often ensues when I arrive. I don?t know why. >?A related problem: I am type A ? impatient? Not me. I am exactly in the middle between patient and impatient. I won that event. Winning that event caused me to lose because it put me one over the average in the number of events where I was most average, damn. >?Are you saying that online education is mostly for the people to the right in the distribution? Eeeehhhh, kinda sorta. Prepare yourself Bill, me lad, for what follows is the honest insight in all the silliness: The resources are there. If people use those, they move smartly to the right on the smartness distribution. Like many human endeavors, the more you know about something, the faster you learn about that something and the more enjoyable becomes that something and the more you know about it. And so on. That?s why we have people who know everything about even boring stuff, like rare coins and? dust. There are many positive feedback loops in learning, and even in attitude: people with a positive outlook tend to look at the bright side and become still more positive. Those whose outlook is negative become more negative by always seeing the dark side. These feedback loops can cause people to be unrealistically optimistic, introducing risk of failure, or to make themselves needlessly miserable, wasting perfectly good happiness. I strive to be exactly balanced between optimism and pessimism. Consequently, I won that event. This caused me to become more optimistic, but that subsequently caused me to lose that event. BillW, educational resources are there. They are abundant, they are excellent and they are free as a bird. Some students gobble them up like an information pac-man, others have no interest and have never even visited there, They wait for the beleaguered teacher to spoon-feed them an education. The result of doing that is pretty much what you already know happens, being as you are a professional educator. The academically rich get dramatically richer, the poor unmotivated wretches get little or nothing. Their time in the classroom is mostly a waste of everyone?s time and patience. >?If so, then different teachers or methods or something could be provided for those to the left? True. This one of the frustrations of modern teachers. The best students are a joy to teach: you give them just a little, just an idea, and they take off and fly. Its fun to watch. Others sit there imitating a corpse, no interest, bad attitude, no motivation, not rewarding at all to teach. Fortunately I am a volunteer, so I get to choose my own students. >?One things about this: the curve has changed along the way, as those to the left are dropping out at every level? A math teacher friend of mine estimates that as many as a third of her students haven?t even logged on at all and are doing nothing point nothing during the time school is closed. They are treating this time like an extended Spring break. Others are prospering wildly, all the usual suspects of course. The performance predicted by previous classroom participation about is amplified 20 dB. Academic winners win. Losers lose. Non-participants join the losers. >?I tried to 'follow' someone on Quora and never did get anything about her in my email. I am glad you are following and wish you would comment. Do my answers show up in your email. or what? It?s a setting. I had mine set to send me a notice when someone I was following posted a comment. I have that switched off at the moment but hope to get active again at some point when I get settled a bit with my Markov Chain discovery which is so crazy cool I am struggling to maintain an outlook perfectly balanced between optimism and pessimism. I may just give up in that event, recognizing I am the dwarf trying to compete in the high-jump. They don?t even have an officially-sanctioned low-jump competition. I am the current champion and world record holder in the average-jump contest. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 18:45:43 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 14:45:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans have died from COVID-19 than the Iraq War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John- Serious question, why don't you have this kind of outrage over the number of people killed by flu every year? These milestones are window dressing and meaningless. What does 9/11 or war deaths have to do with what is happening now? Also, you may want to point some of that righteous indignation over at the PRC and WHO. On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:27 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Another milestone, 4418 Americans died in the Iraq War and as of today at > 17:34 GMT 4,516 Americans have died from COVID-19. The US had its first > death from COVID-19 on March 1, so in one month it has managed to kill more > Americans than the Iraq war has in two decades, and it has almost certainly > destroyed more wealth too. I'm old enough to have been alive during the > administration of Lyndon Johnson and at the time I was certain he would be > the worst president in my lifetime, but one can be absolutely positively > 100% certain of something and still be dead wrong, and a few years later > George W Bush came along and showed me that I was indeed dead wrong. And > now I've been proven to be wrong yet again. I guess there is just no bottom > to bad. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:01:46 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 15:01:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> <007101d60826$3b71c6e0$b25554a0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d6082d$a86fd460$f94f7d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This is pretty good: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2020/03/exponential-growth-and-logarithmic-graphs/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Wed Apr 1 18:59:43 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:59:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] virtual travel Message-ID: > I am not an international traveler. Been to Canada on > road trips twice, had a good time, never anywhere else. Japan! I just loved it! From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:21:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 14:21:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know if I can explain it. I come back to the idea that the brain is just going to be, no matter how advanced our sciences are, too complex for any sim to be that close to the real thing. It's just a prejudice of mine. Like most prejudices, mostly irrational. I like natural things, not gimmicks,like video games (the golf one is just totally stupid - you can see it on the Golf Channel - in time? Who can tell?). Maybe I just want a natural world and corridors of uploaded people is just as far from that as possible, no matter what they are experiencing. Don't waste your time with me on this, or an other prejudiced people. If I were in the future where the upload and the real person were indistinguishable, I am quite sure I would get over the prejudice. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:07 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 01/04/2020 16:36, billw wrote: > > Oddly, I am still thinking about golf - being somewhere in person and > > doing something physical, perhaps through an avatar if uploaded. If we > > needed avatars for certain experiences then that's a downside > > Ah, obvously I misunderstood something from one of your earlier posts, > when you said something like 'heaven, but without golf'. > > I assumed from that that like me, you didn't like golf. It seems you do. > And it seems you think that an upload wouldn't be able to play golf, if > they wanted to. > > Is that correct? > > If so, it seems that some fundamental concepts about uploading are being > missed here. > > Although I don't like golf, I do like skiing, and snowboarding. One of > the things that I'd like to do if I'm ever uploaded, is to snowboard > down Mt. Everest. I expect that constructing the environment and > tweaking the physics engine would be almost as enjoyable as the actual > experience (maybe that's just me). > > I don't expect to need an avatar. The whole thing would be entirely > virtual, and, provided I got the programming right, would also be more > 'real' (as well as more satisfying, I'm sure) than the real thing. > > It seems you think, or suspect, that being an upload and the experience > of 'being somewhere in person and doing something physical' are > incompatible? > > If I'm right about this, would you mind explaining why? because I just > don't get it, and it's probably important to understand. Maybe I'm > missing something important about why more people aren't enthusiastic > about uploading. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:23:50 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 14:23:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am with Keith. Take the average black person and average white person: there are dozens of differences between them - ask any anatomist or physiologist. Now it could be that, like us and chimps, there are far more similarities than there are differences. But to say that those two people are the same is very ignorant. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:14 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > wrote: > > > Stuart, the concept of race was once thought to be genetic, but it > generally > isn't now. > > That's really silly. We can distinguish race and measure the average > differences between races. We know where some of those differences > came from, there was intense selection in the UK over a 400 year > period for the psychological traits that led to wealth. I think this > happened widely in northwest Europe, Clark thinks the same selection > happened in China and Japan, less intense but for a longer time. > > Not that this means much in the long term as humans get control of > their DNA, but it does explain a lot of the present situations > worldwide as the outcome of intense genetic selection. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:35:26 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:35:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <00eb01d60831$35fa1590$a1ee40b0$@rainier66.com> References: <00eb01d60831$35fa1590$a1ee40b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 7:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The 2020 census will have me as multi-racial > Filling out the census for my family, the form has one select one or more of White and the other standard choices, but fill-in-the-blank subraces. I listed "Dutch" for myself. My half-brother requested that I list Viking as one of his subraces. Thus, so far as the Census is concerned, he's Viking (and Norwegian, and a few other linked-to-current-nation subraces). His wife is part Alaskan Native. They identify by corporations. Thus, she is listed as Doyon - a corporate identity - for part of her ethnicity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:39:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 14:39:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: <021101d6084f$f62affa0$e280fee0$@rainier66.com> References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> <017e01d60840$3c7fdcb0$b57f9610$@rainier66.com> <021101d6084f$f62affa0$e280fee0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I wonder how many of us are truly inner-motivated. I love knowledge. No one had to teach me that,and no one had to encourage me, and no one has rewarded me in any way for it. It is self-reinforcing. Sure, I can come up some trivia for somebody, but just knowing it is enough. Maybe many don't get online because they are not like me in that respect. They need immediate gratification of some sort. They need motivation,like a test in a class. A degree. A raise at work. I bought a book for my Learning class and told them no test would come from it. Several got huffy about buying it ($5). Some might keep it on their shelves till death. My guess is that the learning style fad flunked because most people learn much the same way. It's motivation that matters. For many if they can't use it they don't want it. For some it's time - like the Mischel study of kids putting off eating the marshmallow (yes, there is a mallow tree and you original article was made from it - more trivia). Time sense is missing in some, like those who don't save for retirement. Spend money now, worry later. Also like my students of yore: I taught every one of them the best way to study for tests, and few did it my way - most crammed and did not get any sleep the night before. Just totally stupid, dumb, won't help themselves when their own grade depends on doing it the right way, which, in fact, is far easier than what they did!!! Oh well, immature brains - I'll put it down to that. I use the web a lot, but when I want to know something in some detail, I buy a book. That's what I like. Books. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel > > > > Bear Bryant once said that he thought that he was a better coach of the > average player than of the great player? > > > > Ja that isn?t me. I am the average coach of the greatest players. > > > > I am the averagest person you ever saw, averager than thou (I miss the > word thou (now seldom used outside of a few oddball competitions (I go > about uttering the word thou for no apparent reason (strolling about > uttering thou thou thou thou... (passersby are so puzzled (and mildly > alarmed at my apparent insanity (but I digress.))))))) > > > > We have plenty of contests on the two extremes, who can jump the highest > and who can sink the ball in the hole with the fewest strokes and so on, > but every sport has a bell curve in performance and someone hasta be the > most in the center, right at the peak of the performance bell curve, > looking down in a sense at those who suck the most and those who suck the > least, ja? That person is the averagest of all, the cee-est of the c > students. > > > > We tried to have a contest to see who was the most average person, but it > didn?t work out for us: everyone chose their favored event, won that, so it > was a multiple tie. Naturally the logical champion of average would go to > whoever was the most average in the greatest number of events. Then he or > she would become the multi-athlon average-lete. > > > > I was getting creamed in that, but then I pointed out the obvious: the > most average-lete would be one who is most average, not in a single event > nor the greatest number of events, but rather the most average in the most > average number of events. > > > > Chaos ensued. Chaos often ensues when I arrive. I don?t know why. > > > > >?A related problem: I am type A ? impatient? > > > > Not me. I am exactly in the middle between patient and impatient. I won > that event. Winning that event caused me to lose because it put me one > over the average in the number of events where I was most average, damn. > > > > >?Are you saying that online education is mostly for the people to the > right in the distribution? > > > > Eeeehhhh, kinda sorta. Prepare yourself Bill, me lad, for what follows is > the honest insight in all the silliness: > > > > The resources are there. If people use those, they move smartly to the > right on the smartness distribution. Like many human endeavors, the more > you know about something, the faster you learn about that something and the > more enjoyable becomes that something and the more you know about it. And > so on. That?s why we have people who know everything about even boring > stuff, like rare coins and? dust. > > > > There are many positive feedback loops in learning, and even in attitude: > people with a positive outlook tend to look at the bright side and become > still more positive. Those whose outlook is negative become more negative > by always seeing the dark side. These feedback loops can cause people to > be unrealistically optimistic, introducing risk of failure, or to make > themselves needlessly miserable, wasting perfectly good happiness. > > > > I strive to be exactly balanced between optimism and pessimism. > Consequently, I won that event. This caused me to become more optimistic, > but that subsequently caused me to lose that event. > > > > BillW, educational resources are there. They are abundant, they are > excellent and they are free as a bird. Some students gobble them up like > an information pac-man, others have no interest and have never even visited > there, They wait for the beleaguered teacher to spoon-feed them an > education. The result of doing that is pretty much what you already know > happens, being as you are a professional educator. The academically rich > get dramatically richer, the poor unmotivated wretches get little or > nothing. Their time in the classroom is mostly a waste of everyone?s time > and patience. > > > > >?If so, then different teachers or methods or something could be > provided for those to the left? > > > > True. This one of the frustrations of modern teachers. The best students > are a joy to teach: you give them just a little, just an idea, and they > take off and fly. Its fun to watch. Others sit there imitating a corpse, > no interest, bad attitude, no motivation, not rewarding at all to teach. > Fortunately I am a volunteer, so I get to choose my own students. > > > > >?One things about this: the curve has changed along the way, as those > to the left are dropping out at every level? > > > > A math teacher friend of mine estimates that as many as a third of her > students haven?t even logged on at all and are doing nothing point nothing > during the time school is closed. They are treating this time like an > extended Spring break. Others are prospering wildly, all the usual > suspects of course. The performance predicted by previous classroom > participation about is amplified 20 dB. Academic winners win. Losers > lose. Non-participants join the losers. > > > > >?I tried to 'follow' someone on Quora and never did get anything about > her in my email. I am glad you are following and wish you would comment. > Do my answers show up in your email. or what? > > > > It?s a setting. I had mine set to send me a notice when someone I was > following posted a comment. I have that switched off at the moment but > hope to get active again at some point when I get settled a bit with my > Markov Chain discovery which is so crazy cool I am struggling to maintain > an outlook perfectly balanced between optimism and pessimism. I may just > give up in that event, recognizing I am the dwarf trying to compete in the > high-jump. They don?t even have an officially-sanctioned low-jump > competition. I am the current champion and world record holder in the > average-jump contest. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:40:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 14:40:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virtual travel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The loss of my life - not to get to visit Japan, the world's best gardeners. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:10 PM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I am not an international traveler. Been to Canada on > > road trips twice, had a good time, never anywhere else. > > Japan! I just loved it! > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:49:13 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 12:49:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:10 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Let's put it this way. Can you imagine any kind of upload process > that could not make you more intelligent? > Quite easily: one that essentially just substitutes a vast virtual reality for the reality my meat body used to experience, as depicted in several movies. Tron comes to mind quickly: the person's body was completely deconstructed and they existed only as an electronic consciousness, with apparently equal intelligence before and after. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 20:08:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:08:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02a401d60861$4554e5d0$cffeb170$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 10:07 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Keith Henson Subject: [ExI] it's your choice wrote: >>... Stuart, the concept of race was once thought to be genetic, but it > generally isn't now. >...That's really silly. We can distinguish race and measure the average differences between races. We know where some of those differences came from, there was intense selection in the UK over a 400 year period for the psychological traits that led to wealth. I think this happened widely in northwest Europe, Clark thinks the same selection happened in China and Japan, less intense but for a longer time. >...Not that this means much in the long term as humans get control of their DNA, but it does explain a lot of the present situations worldwide as the outcome of intense genetic selection. Keith _______________________________________________ Keith where I was going with that is when we hear a person was born this gender but identifies as that one. I am merely extending the notion slightly. We are all a mixture of races. If you go back far enough we are all Africans. I know of no absolute criterion which dictates when we stop being African. However for a long time I identified as European, for I didn't know I was part (recent) African. Did the DNA test. Now I know. We know of people of a particular genetic makeup who do not identify with others of similar DNA: you might say something like "He's a Latino who identifies as white." We know what that is and what it looks like. So now I have the DNA results, I identify as a DNA-based African American who culturally identifies as European. By skilful use of logic, there is no logical system that we can't mess up. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 20:09:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:09:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans have died from COVID-19 than the Iraq War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:48 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John-* > > *Serious question, why don't you have this kind of outrage over the number > of people killed by flu every year? * > Well Dylan, I would have been outraged indeed if in 1918 somebody had engaged in wishful thinking rather than action at the very start of the epidemic and said "*We have the fue very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment ? five. And I think the numbers are going to get progressively better as we go along*". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 20:15:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:15:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More Americans have died from COVID-19 than the Iraq War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02d801d60862$40f4ca90$c2de5fb0$@rainier66.com> On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:27 PM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Another milestone? 4,516 Americans have died from COVID-19. ? Lyndon Johnson and at the time I was certain he would be the worst president in my lifetime?John K Clark _______________________________________________ > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] More Americans have died from COVID-19 than the Iraq War John- >?Serious question, why don't you have this kind of outrage over the number of people killed by flu every year? These milestones are window dressing and meaningless. What does 9/11 or war deaths have to do with what is happening now? Also, you may want to point some of that righteous indignation over at the PRC and WHO? Ja, Dylan the ordinary flu is a perfectly good crisis going to waste every year. I need to find a way to leverage that to political advantage. And unimaginable wealth of course, but that is always the case. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 20:20:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:20:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans have died from COVID-19 than the Iraq War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh by the way Dylan, two and a half hours ago I said: "*as of today at 17**:**34 GMT 4,516 Americans have died from COVID-19*." But that number is already out of date, as of today at 20:11 GMT the number of American deaths is 4697. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 1 20:35:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:35:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02fa01d60865$16435980$42ca0c80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] it's your choice I am with Keith. Take the average black person and average white person: there are dozens of differences between them? bill w On the contrary: there are no differences between them, because they are the same guy: me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 20:53:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:53:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <02fa01d60865$16435980$42ca0c80$@rainier66.com> References: <02fa01d60865$16435980$42ca0c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace Wrote > > I am with Keith. Take the average black person and average white > person: there are dozens of differences between them? bill w > True, but if you pick 2 chimpanzees at random you will find far greater genetic diversity between the chimps than with 2 humans picked at random. It's thought that for reasons that remain unclear the human population seems to have dropped to very low numbers about 80,000 years ago, perhaps to only a few hundred, and all of us are descendants of those survivors. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 22:34:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 17:34:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: <02fa01d60865$16435980$42ca0c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I read awhile back (sorry excuse for not remembering my sources) that the genetic diversity in a small pygmy village was greater than the diversity in all of the U.S. Aside from not knowing what to do with data like this, it makes me wonder just what did happen to diversity among those who left AFrica long ago. bill w On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:55 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > William Flynn Wallace Wrote > > >> > I am with Keith. Take the average black person and average white >> person: there are dozens of differences between them? bill w >> > > True, but if you pick 2 chimpanzees at random you will find far greater > genetic diversity between the chimps than with 2 humans picked at random. > It's thought that for reasons that remain unclear the human population > seems to have dropped to very low numbers about 80,000 years ago, perhaps > to only a few hundred, and all of us are descendants of those survivors. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Apr 1 20:30:30 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 13:30:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What's up with the WHO? Message-ID: <20200401133030.Horde.Jc-6MzHF4VFrxrF6lZIf9qz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Is it my imagination or is the WHO (yes that WHO) being very unhelpful in this outbreak? It seems strange that an organization called the World Health Organization would: 1. Wait until COVID-19 reached American soil before calling it a pandemic despite over half of the world's countries being affected at the time. 2. Recommend that people in western countries other than medical professionals not wear masks despite heavy mask use in Asia by non-doctors. 3. Report an increase in the Case Fatality Rate from the 2.3% reported by China to an outrageous 3.4% right when the virus started infecting western nations despite data suggesting it is less than 1%. And then of course there is all the awkwardness over Taiwan. Has the WHO become a proxy of the Chinese government? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-taiwan-idUSKBN21B160 ----------------------- TAIPEI (Reuters) - Taiwan accused the World Heath Organization of ignoring its questions at the start of the coronavirus outbreak, part of what it has long described as a pattern that puts it at risk because of Chinese pressure to exclude it from international bodies. Taiwan is barred from membership in the WHO under pressure from China, which views it as a province rather than a state. It responded early to the coronavirus outbreak in China, and has had notable success in limiting contagion so far, with just two deaths and 215 cases. Taiwan?s government has said that keeping it out of the WHO during the outbreak amounts to playing politics with Taiwanese lives, and it has been denied access to first-hand information. Both the WHO and China say Taiwan has been provided with the help it needs. Speaking to reporters in Taipei, the island?s Centres for Disease Control chief Chou Jih-haw said that it written to the WHO and China as early as Dec. 31, asking for information about the newly uncovered virus outbreak in China?s Wuhan city, including whether there was human-to-human transmission. ?We asked them whether there?s a possibility of human-to-human transmission. We indeed asked them and reminded them of the matter,? Chou said. He said the WHO confirmed it had received the letter but did not respond to it. ---------------------- Stuart LaForge From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 23:37:27 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 18:37:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: <02fa01d60865$16435980$42ca0c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <51E3B0AD-19AC-4C56-AA95-93DD38E9D0AA@gmail.com> There is also the awkward point where you have to decide how many races there are. If difference between races are both ?obvious? and ?non-trivial?, then this is simple. How many races are there? ?White? and ?not white?? ?White, Black, Red, Yellow, and Brown?? Is ?Latino? a race? Are Japanese people and Indian people the same race? If I am (Irish, Scottish, Welsh, British), (Russian, Belarusian), (Peruvian: Native and Spaniard), a tiny smidgen Blackfoot, and Israeli, am I White? Am I Latino? Am I Jewish? How ?White? do you have to be to be white? How ?Black? do you have to be to be black? Am I mixed race? Is Latino a race? From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 23:40:20 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 18:40:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virtual travel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A01BCAC-CFE5-457D-B9CD-B592A4FAF3D3@gmail.com> It?s never too late, just gotta wait until next year! I can?t wait to go back to Japan... I?m strongly considering living there. SR Ballard > On Apr 1, 2020, at 2:40 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > The loss of my life - not to get to visit Japan, the world's best gardeners. bill w > >> On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:10 PM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat wrote: >> > I am not an international traveler. Been to Canada on >> > road trips twice, had a good time, never anywhere else. >> >> Japan! I just loved it! >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 14:34:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 09:34:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trivia for the day Message-ID: My first and last video game was Pong. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 14:51:57 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 09:51:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trivia for the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2BFFB184-F65A-4A0A-8C64-79C119468CBB@gmail.com> I find that a little sad. SR Ballard > On Apr 2, 2020, at 9:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > My first and last video game was Pong. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 15:31:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 10:31:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trivia for the day In-Reply-To: <2BFFB184-F65A-4A0A-8C64-79C119468CBB@gmail.com> References: <2BFFB184-F65A-4A0A-8C64-79C119468CBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: I find that a little sad. SR Ballard Well. I did try Myst and it did not interest me - also the flying program around 1980. If I liked it I would do it and no one could stop me or shame me out of it. So what's sad? I did not miss anything I liked. I had some experience at programming in grad school, and did not like that either. I went to law school - dropped out- hated it. I can go down a rack of 100 coats and not like any of them. And so on - picky. Born picky. Not apologizing for it either. I had to learn to cook in self-defense. I don't like most of Mozart. Is that a sin? What I do like I love! I was within 10 feet of the Mona Lisa and did not go over and look at it. Just gimme the best you got, world. I don't know who or what is in charge of my brain, but I like it or I don't. Doesn't matter how famous it is. bill w On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I find that a little sad. > > SR Ballard > > On Apr 2, 2020, at 9:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > My first and last video game was Pong. > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 2 16:02:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 09:02:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day Message-ID: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?I had to learn to cook in self-defense. bill w Me too! I fix one of those French bread recipes, leave out the yeast, set the oven 100 degrees over, bad guy comes in, swat the bastard with it, done. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 16:22:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 11:22:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: So you floured him, eh? bill w On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *>?*I had to learn to cook in self-defense. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Me too! I fix one of those French bread recipes, leave out the yeast, set > the oven 100 degrees over, bad guy comes in, swat the bastard with it, done. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 2 16:34:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 09:34:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day So you floured him, eh? bill w When he regained consciousness, he inquired: Wheat happened? I responded: Ja. spike On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?I had to learn to cook in self-defense. bill w Me too! I fix one of those French bread recipes, leave out the yeast, set the oven 100 degrees over, bad guy comes in, swat the bastard with it, done. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Apr 2 16:24:47 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 12:24:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] trivia for the day In-Reply-To: References: <2BFFB184-F65A-4A0A-8C64-79C119468CBB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <80b29c29732af5dbdec58b1871c3fa97.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> I played with DonkeyKong and with Xaxxon (sp?) until I could beat the other folks in my home. Then I quit. It wasn't as much fun as gardening or reading a book or taking a nap. Tremendous time waster though, if I had nothing better to do, which wasn't often with a family to raise. About on the level of Solitaire. Regards, MB On Thu, April 2, 2020 11:31, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I find that a little sad. > > SR Ballard > Well. I did try Myst and it did not interest me - also the flying program > around 1980. If I liked it I would do it and no one could stop me or > shame > me out of it. So what's sad? I did not miss anything I liked. I had > some > experience at programming in grad school, and did not like that either. I > went to law school - dropped out- hated it. > > I can go down a rack of 100 coats and not like any of them. > And so on - picky. Born picky. Not apologizing for it either. > I had to learn to cook in self-defense. > I don't like most of Mozart. Is that a sin? What I do like I love! I > was > within 10 feet of the Mona Lisa and did not go over and look at it. > > Just gimme the best you got, world. I don't know who or what is in charge > of my brain, but I like it or I don't. Doesn't matter how famous it is. > > bill w > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I find that a little sad. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Apr 2, 2020, at 9:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> My first and last video game was Pong. >> >> bill w >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 2 16:49:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 09:49:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b701d6090e$ba353690$2e9fa3b0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 9:35 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day So you floured him, eh? bill w He was toast. For a minute or two he was naan responsive, then he pleaded, Please sir, dough not do that again. I inquired: Very well. Butter you going to mend your errant ways? He responded: Yes sir! I knead to go away forthwith! He fled hastily. An observer might say he hauled buns. spike On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?I had to learn to cook in self-defense. bill w Me too! I fix one of those French bread recipes, leave out the yeast, set the oven 100 degrees over, bad guy comes in, swat the bastard with it, done. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 17:40:54 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 10:40:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] trivia for the day In-Reply-To: <80b29c29732af5dbdec58b1871c3fa97.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <2BFFB184-F65A-4A0A-8C64-79C119468CBB@gmail.com> <80b29c29732af5dbdec58b1871c3fa97.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: Video games have diversified a lot since then. Some of the less interactive ones, these days, are practically like reading a book - or watching a movie, depending on how they use their visual component. Most of them are more involved, though. Some appeal to creators - write a story within certain constraints and see how it turns out. Many are, of course, mindless action - but to dismiss all video games as that is quite similar to dismissing all movies as plot-what-plot action flicks. On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:45 AM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I played with DonkeyKong and with Xaxxon (sp?) until I could beat the > other folks in my home. Then I quit. It wasn't as much fun as gardening > or reading a book or taking a nap. > > Tremendous time waster though, if I had nothing better to do, which wasn't > often with a family to raise. About on the level of Solitaire. > > Regards, > MB > > On Thu, April 2, 2020 11:31, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I find that a little sad. > > > > SR Ballard > > Well. I did try Myst and it did not interest me - also the flying program > > around 1980. If I liked it I would do it and no one could stop me or > > shame > > me out of it. So what's sad? I did not miss anything I liked. I had > > some > > experience at programming in grad school, and did not like that either. > I > > went to law school - dropped out- hated it. > > > > I can go down a rack of 100 coats and not like any of them. > > And so on - picky. Born picky. Not apologizing for it either. > > I had to learn to cook in self-defense. > > I don't like most of Mozart. Is that a sin? What I do like I love! I > > was > > within 10 feet of the Mona Lisa and did not go over and look at it. > > > > Just gimme the best you got, world. I don't know who or what is in > charge > > of my brain, but I like it or I don't. Doesn't matter how famous it is. > > > > bill w > > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> I find that a little sad. > >> > >> SR Ballard > >> > >> On Apr 2, 2020, at 9:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >> My first and last video game was Pong. > >> > >> bill w > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Apr 2 19:03:51 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:03:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] trivia for the day In-Reply-To: References: <2BFFB184-F65A-4A0A-8C64-79C119468CBB@gmail.com> <80b29c29732af5dbdec58b1871c3fa97.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <85ffca6067a8c1e2051d0ab72f2f2abb.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Thu, April 2, 2020 13:40, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > Video games have diversified a lot since then. Some of the less > interactive ones, these days, are practically like reading a book - or > watching a movie, depending on how they use their visual component. > > Most of them are more involved, though. Some appeal to creators - write a > story within certain constraints and see how it turns out. Many are, of > course, mindless action - but to dismiss all video games as that is quite > similar to dismissing all movies as plot-what-plot action flicks. > I am sure this is true. However, nowadays I am so busy with other things I cannot imagine having time to study playing a video game. Already spend way too much time on the computer! ;) Regards, MB From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 19:04:48 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:04:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trivia for the day In-Reply-To: References: <2BFFB184-F65A-4A0A-8C64-79C119468CBB@gmail.com> <80b29c29732af5dbdec58b1871c3fa97.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: I don't watch movies either. I have enjoyed many in the past but now it's all books. The difference between a good book and a good movie is just enormous, especially a movie from a book. Finding a good movie or video game would be like going to the library and picking a book at random and enjoying it. Very, very low probability. TV consists of tennis and golf, so mine has not been on for some time now. News is Google or NYT or look around the web. For at most 10 minutes. You know? I think some of it is speed. Movies are so slow. Did I ever tell you that I was peculiar? And picky? bill w On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 12:43 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Video games have diversified a lot since then. Some of the less > interactive ones, these days, are practically like reading a book - or > watching a movie, depending on how they use their visual component. > > Most of them are more involved, though. Some appeal to creators - write a > story within certain constraints and see how it turns out. Many are, of > course, mindless action - but to dismiss all video games as that is quite > similar to dismissing all movies as plot-what-plot action flicks. > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:45 AM MB via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I played with DonkeyKong and with Xaxxon (sp?) until I could beat the >> other folks in my home. Then I quit. It wasn't as much fun as gardening >> or reading a book or taking a nap. >> >> Tremendous time waster though, if I had nothing better to do, which wasn't >> often with a family to raise. About on the level of Solitaire. >> >> Regards, >> MB >> >> On Thu, April 2, 2020 11:31, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> > I find that a little sad. >> > >> > SR Ballard >> > Well. I did try Myst and it did not interest me - also the flying >> program >> > around 1980. If I liked it I would do it and no one could stop me or >> > shame >> > me out of it. So what's sad? I did not miss anything I liked. I had >> > some >> > experience at programming in grad school, and did not like that >> either. I >> > went to law school - dropped out- hated it. >> > >> > I can go down a rack of 100 coats and not like any of them. >> > And so on - picky. Born picky. Not apologizing for it either. >> > I had to learn to cook in self-defense. >> > I don't like most of Mozart. Is that a sin? What I do like I love! I >> > was >> > within 10 feet of the Mona Lisa and did not go over and look at it. >> > >> > Just gimme the best you got, world. I don't know who or what is in >> charge >> > of my brain, but I like it or I don't. Doesn't matter how famous it is. >> > >> > bill w >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> >> I find that a little sad. >> >> >> >> SR Ballard >> >> >> >> On Apr 2, 2020, at 9:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> My first and last video game was Pong. >> >> >> >> bill w >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 19:05:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:05:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: So you told him that you were just loafing around when he came in. bill w On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day > > > > So you floured him, eh? bill w > > > > > > > > > > When he regained consciousness, he inquired: Wheat happened? > > > > I responded: Ja. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *>?*I had to learn to cook in self-defense. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Me too! I fix one of those French bread recipes, leave out the yeast, set > the oven 100 degrees over, bad guy comes in, swat the bastard with it, done. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 19:08:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:08:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] making out questionnaires Message-ID: As a social psychologist I am somewhat of an expert at this, and so real boners are appreciated. I was answering one from 23 and Me when I was asked if I had donated an organ. 1 - yes 2 - no 3 - I am not sure bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 19:20:24 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 12:20:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: <00b701d6090e$ba353690$2e9fa3b0$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> <00b701d6090e$ba353690$2e9fa3b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Now that's an all-rye-t pun. Copied and pasted to others. On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Thursday, April 2, 2020 9:35 AM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day > > > > So you floured him, eh? bill w > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He was toast. For a minute or two he was naan responsive, then he > pleaded, Please sir, dough not do that again. > > > > I inquired: Very well. Butter you going to mend your errant ways? > > > > He responded: Yes sir! I knead to go away forthwith! > > > > He fled hastily. An observer might say he hauled buns. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *>?*I had to learn to cook in self-defense. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Me too! I fix one of those French bread recipes, leave out the yeast, set > the oven 100 degrees over, bad guy comes in, swat the bastard with it, done. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:00:26 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 13:00:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice Message-ID: spike wrote: > By skilful use of logic, there is no logical system that we can't mess up. I.e., you know what you posted is BS. I can't respond to that. Keith From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:19:42 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 13:19:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] making out questionnaires In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F405BB9-5718-4BF0-AA1B-E013EA04DFCE@gmail.com> On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:34 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? > > As a social psychologist I am somewhat of an expert at this, and so real boners are appreciated. I was answering one from 23 and Me when I was asked if I had donated an organ. > > 1 - yes > 2 - no > 3 - I am not sure Do the have the same answer set for an organ recipient question? And they forgot ?none of the above.? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 2 20:36:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 13:36:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007101d6092e$57a3b360$06eb1a20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day >?So you told him that you were just loafing around when he came in. bill w Ja. Apparently the impact was so severe it caused his prosthetic eye to pop out. I decided to let him go. As he staggered out I called out: Wait, you focaccia rye. spike On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day So you floured him, eh? bill w When he regained consciousness, he inquired: Wheat happened? I responded: Ja. spike On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?I had to learn to cook in self-defense. bill w Me too! I fix one of those French bread recipes, leave out the yeast, set the oven 100 degrees over, bad guy comes in, swat the bastard with it, done. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 2 20:52:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 13:52:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: <007101d6092e$57a3b360$06eb1a20$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> <007101d6092e$57a3b360$06eb1a20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a401d60930$ac1dc280$04594780$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 1:36 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day >?So you told him that you were just loafing around when he came in. bill w Ja. Apparently the impact was so severe it caused his prosthetic eye to pop out. I decided to let him go. As he staggered out I called out: Wait, you focaccia rye. spike In case you were wondering, the young miscreant suffered no serious Injera. As he departed I did re quistibi more judicious in his choice of where to perpetrate his crimes. Oh mercy, I die laughing, I just kill me. I slay myself. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:52:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:52:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] making out questionnaires In-Reply-To: <8F405BB9-5718-4BF0-AA1B-E013EA04DFCE@gmail.com> References: <8F405BB9-5718-4BF0-AA1B-E013EA04DFCE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes they did. I sent the first one before I got to that question. How did they think that someone would not know that they were a donor or recipient? bill w On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 3:21 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:34 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:? > > As a social psychologist I am somewhat of an expert at this, and so real > boners are appreciated. I was answering one from 23 and Me when I was > asked if I had donated an organ. > > 1 - yes > 2 - no > 3 - I am not sure > > > Do the have the same answer set for an organ recipient question? > > And they forgot ?none of the above.? > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:54:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:54:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: <007101d6092e$57a3b360$06eb1a20$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> <007101d6092e$57a3b360$06eb1a20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am going to think of another one, but for the nonce, I just have to share this metaphor from a book I am reading: "I have a tongue that can open oysters." bill On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 3:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day > > > > >?So you told him that you were just loafing around when he came in. > bill w > > > > > > > > Ja. Apparently the impact was so severe it caused his prosthetic eye to > pop out. I decided to let him go. As he staggered out I called out: Wait, > you focaccia rye. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day > > > > So you floured him, eh? bill w > > > > > > > > > > When he regained consciousness, he inquired: Wheat happened? > > > > I responded: Ja. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *>?*I had to learn to cook in self-defense. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Me too! I fix one of those French bread recipes, leave out the yeast, set > the oven 100 degrees over, bad guy comes in, swat the bastard with it, done. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:57:13 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:57:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: <00a401d60930$ac1dc280$04594780$@rainier66.com> References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> <007101d6092e$57a3b360$06eb1a20$@rainier66.com> <00a401d60930$ac1dc280$04594780$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You're a good man, Spike. Not many people would have taken pita on him. bill w On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 3:54 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Thursday, April 2, 2020 1:36 PM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day > > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day > > > > >?So you told him that you were just loafing around when he came in. > bill w > > > > > > > > Ja. Apparently the impact was so severe it caused his prosthetic eye to > pop out. I decided to let him go. As he staggered out I called out: Wait, > you focaccia rye. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In case you were wondering, the young miscreant suffered no serious > Injera. As he departed I did re quistibi more judicious in his choice of > where to perpetrate his crimes. > > > > > > > > > > Oh mercy, I die laughing, I just kill me. I slay myself. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 21:08:18 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:08:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] making out questionnaires In-Reply-To: References: <8F405BB9-5718-4BF0-AA1B-E013EA04DFCE@gmail.com> Message-ID: One is generally unconscious during the procedure, so one could go in for surgery and not think it will involve organ extraction or replacement. I can especially see this in cases of involuntary organ donation, as practiced in western China. On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 2:02 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Yes they did. I sent the first one before I got to that question. How > did they think that someone would not know that they were a donor or > recipient? bill w > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 3:21 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Apr 2, 2020, at 12:34 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:? >> >> As a social psychologist I am somewhat of an expert at this, and so real >> boners are appreciated. I was answering one from 23 and Me when I was >> asked if I had donated an organ. >> >> 1 - yes >> 2 - no >> 3 - I am not sure >> >> >> Do the have the same answer set for an organ recipient question? >> >> And they forgot ?none of the above.? >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books at: >> >> http://author.to/DanUst >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 2 21:22:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:22:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00eb01d60934$d6c96300$845c2900$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 1:00 PM Subject: [ExI] it's your choice spike wrote: > By skilful use of logic, there is no logical system that we can't mess up. I.e., you know what you posted is BS. I can't respond to that. Keith Keith, sensa huma, me lad. We know how race is used in our modern world, but at some point we must recognize that we moderns are in a rather absurd situation where gender is a choice but race is not. Clearly everyone is a mixture of races. That one really is ambiguous. A few of us (perhaps a tenth of a percent) are genetically ambiguous gender (trisomy or ring chromosome 13) but for everyone else, it is either XX or XY. But most of us have ancestors from all over. If you do just the 60 dollar DNA test, you can see that, and if you have a friend interested in this sorta thing, you can find out all kindsa cool stuff, including. most of us are a mixture of what we are now calling races, which are multiplying daily it seems. So now we are in a society where men can compete in womens' sports, where gender is a choice but one cannot change by choice from one's assigned race? Indeed? Of course we can. Anything represented anywhere in our DNA is among our choices. I know of no rule that specifies we are always stuck with the majority race found in our DNA, and know examples where people have been assigned against their will to a trace of their DNA content. Are we really now in a place where gender is a choice but race is not? I recommend that people do one of those DNA tests. If you are concerned with privacy, I can explain how to do those where the identity of the DNA cannot be determined. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 2 21:27:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:27:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] making out questionnaires In-Reply-To: References: <8F405BB9-5718-4BF0-AA1B-E013EA04DFCE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f401d60935$85134e80$8f39eb80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] making out questionnaires I was asked if I had donated an organ. 1 - yes 2 - no 3 - I am not sure bill w >? How did they think that someone would not know that they were a donor or recipient? bill w The respondent reasoned he may have been a brain donor, but the surgeons took the hemisphere which contains memory. If so, the donor only needs to find a person who knows all the stuff the donor used to know. The problem is that donor no longer knows what he used to know, so if he meets a really smart person, he has no way of knowing how the recipient got that way. I don?t know how I got this way, but every time I see Anders Sandberg, I grow suspicious. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 2 21:40:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:40:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day In-Reply-To: References: <006e01d60908$1355b260$3a011720$@rainier66.com> <009601d6090c$9adb01f0$d09105d0$@rainier66.com> <007101d6092e$57a3b360$06eb1a20$@rainier66.com> <00a401d60930$ac1dc280$04594780$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011201d60937$4654c460$d2fe4d20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kung food was: RE: trivia for the day You're a good man, Spike. Not many people would have taken pita on him. bill w Well there is that, but I figure when you vanocka guy on the head with a loaf, yufka to let him retreat under his own power, obi responsible for his medical bills. BillW, since you are the new guy here, you may not know that in the glory days now tragically past, these kinds of pun storms periodically broke out on ExI, and could take days to settle down. The wordplayers would be quite lavash in their use of self-defined witticism and paranomasia. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 12:47:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 08:47:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Death doubling time Message-ID: Just thought I'd give you some statistics. Only 2 countries in the world have a higher number of COVID-19 deaths than the US, Italy and Spain. Italy's number of deaths is doubling every 10 days. Spain's number of deaths is doubling every 6 days. The number of deaths in the US is doubling every 3 days, and no nation that has had more than 25 deaths has a faster doubling time than that. Iran, which not long ago was considered the prototypical example of a nation that had totally bungled it's response to the virus, has a doubling time of 2 weeks. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 13:45:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 08:45:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] race Message-ID: There was a snail race for people who had plenty of time. Each snail had a letter on its shell. Here is the call of the race: And they're off! A takes the lead, at least an inch in front of I. (90 minute time break ) Now they are coming down the stretch. A is still leading but here comes a long shot, really putting on the speed and passing A! It looks he is going to win! Yes! Look at that S car go! bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Apr 3 16:28:44 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 17:28:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f87cff7-c1fb-d11a-40d0-ed5b68b39911@zaiboc.net> On 31/03/2020 17:26, billw wrote: > I dunno.? A lot of this seems so artificial, and of course that's all > it is.? I am deeply romantic and would hate to see that changed in any > way.? I hate what we are doing to this planet and don't want to live > in a habitat circling Jupiter or somewhere.? Why mess with perfection? 'Artificial' is what we do. What we strive for. Nature is far from perfection, and we are constantly trying to make it better. It's what we have been doing since we began. If that were not true, we'd still be swinging from tree branches. What we are doing to the planet (that bad things we are doing to it, that is) is unintended fall-out from that process, and we will learn to do it better, do less damage, fix the damage we have done, and continue to improve on nature. We will do that or destroy ourselves in the process. There is no middle course, no 'sustainability'. That's just shorthand for failure. It's either up or down for us. Anything else is just balancing on a knife-edge and we know where that leads. There's nothing wrong with 'artificial'. Think about what the word means, where it comes from. It's the expression of our highest impulse. The word is unfairly denigrated, and I think this is just luddite propaganda. There's a tendency to idealise nature, to regard anything 'natural' as necessarily good, but a moment's thought should expose that for the dangerous lie it is. Rather than the conflict between 'natural' and 'artificial', we should have a conflict between doing things well and doing them badly. We can better ourselves and the world well, or we can do it badly. Mostly, we've been doing it pretty badly so far, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it at all, it means we need to get better at it. Lots better. And we are learning all the time. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Apr 3 16:35:43 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 17:35:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 31/03/2020 17:26, John K Clark wrote: > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > /> The solution is simply to write about uploads that are not more > intelligent than you are. Which is what Greg Egan did/ > > > That's a good solution if you want to write a story that bipedal > hominids could read with understanding and enjoyment, in fact it's the > only possible solution a fiction writer has, but it's not realistic. > It's called a singularity for a reason, beyond a certain point human > imagination and intelligence just isn't good enough to figure out how > things would really be. > Agreed. Not realistic. But that doesn't mean not worth doing. The bioluddites don't know what will happen after a singularity any more than anyone else does, but that doesn't stop them from making their panic-mongering doom-laden predictions. It shouldn't stop us from making optimistic projections. Or good, entertaining and positive stories. Nobody needs to figure out how things will really be, they need to try and steer things in the direction they want them to go. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 17:05:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 13:05:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined Message-ID: On Wednesday April 1 at 17:34 GMT 4,516 Americans had died from COVID-19 and that is greater than the 4415 that died in the Iraq war. Today Friday April 3 at 17:00 GMT 6714 Americans had died from COVID-19 and that is greater than the 6637 Americans that had died in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined. And the US only had its first COVID-19 death on March 1. Does anybody still think the quarantine was an overreaction? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 17:08:38 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:08:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: <7f87cff7-c1fb-d11a-40d0-ed5b68b39911@zaiboc.net> References: <7f87cff7-c1fb-d11a-40d0-ed5b68b39911@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I knew I was going to get a lecture on 'artificial'. I am more nuanced than you think. A great deal of me is artificial: eyeglasses, hearing aids, replaced spinal disc, dental implants and so on. I won't eat every 'natural' mushroom, either. So I wouldn't need any of that if I were uploaded, I get it. It's just not going to apply to me, so I should just shut up and let y'all speculate and dream. bill w On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:32 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 31/03/2020 17:26, billw wrote: > > I dunno. A lot of this seems so artificial, and of course that's all it > is. I am deeply romantic and would hate to see that changed in any way. I > hate what we are doing to this planet and don't want to live in a habitat > circling Jupiter or somewhere. Why mess with perfection? > > > 'Artificial' is what we do. What we strive for. Nature is far from > perfection, and we are constantly trying to make it better. It's what we > have been doing since we began. If that were not true, we'd still be > swinging from tree branches. What we are doing to the planet (that bad > things we are doing to it, that is) is unintended fall-out from that > process, and we will learn to do it better, do less damage, fix the damage > we have done, and continue to improve on nature. > > We will do that or destroy ourselves in the process. There is no middle > course, no 'sustainability'. That's just shorthand for failure. It's either > up or down for us. Anything else is just balancing on a knife-edge and we > know where that leads. > > There's nothing wrong with 'artificial'. Think about what the word means, > where it comes from. It's the expression of our highest impulse. The word > is unfairly denigrated, and I think this is just luddite propaganda. > There's a tendency to idealise nature, to regard anything 'natural' as > necessarily good, but a moment's thought should expose that for the > dangerous lie it is. > > Rather than the conflict between 'natural' and 'artificial', we should > have a conflict between doing things well and doing them badly. We can > better ourselves and the world well, or we can do it badly. Mostly, we've > been doing it pretty badly so far, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it > at all, it means we need to get better at it. Lots better. > > And we are learning all the time. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 17:16:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:16:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anybody still think the quarantine was an overreaction? John K Clark Just finished reading The Week. Two page story at the end about some Republican followers in Louisiana who followed Trump and Hannity and thought the whole thing was a hoax. Then a guy comes down with it and is on a machine to breath. (I recommend that mag - $1 a week if worth it). I just cannot fathom how strongly political party affiliation leads people to stupid ideas and myths and superstitions and paranoia. I keep harping on cognitive errors and this is why. We all are quite intelligent but even we (even we!!) are not immune to them. bill w On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 12:09 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wednesday April 1 at 17:34 GMT 4,516 Americans had died from COVID-19 > and that is greater than the 4415 that died in the Iraq war. Today Friday > April 3 at 17:00 GMT 6714 Americans had died from COVID-19 and that is > greater than the 6637 Americans that had died in the Iraq and Afghanistan > wars combined. And the US only had its first COVID-19 death on March 1. > Does anybody still think the quarantine was an overreaction? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Apr 3 17:17:20 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 18:17:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/04/2020 14:17, Keith Henson wrote: > Ben Zaiboc wrote: > > snip > >> Ah, I see. >> OK, that's not a problem with stories about uploads per se., it's a > problem with stories about anything more intelligent than the author (or > the readers). And it only holds true for uploads if you assume they will > inevitably be more intelligent (I'm not saying that's not a fair > assumption, just pointing it out). > > There would seem to be little reason to upload if the process didn't > make you more intelligent. > >> The solution is simply to write about uploads that are not more > intelligent than you are. > > That works if you are just interested in writing stories. It doesn't > work so well when you are trying to depict a post-singularity world. > All I could do in the story I wrote was to hint that the AI/uploads > who are assumed to be in control of the world had decided to stabilize > the human population. Why? Unknown, sentimental reasons perhaps. > > snip > >> Telling stories isn't an exercise > in trying to get things right, or predicting the future. > > In most cases this is true. I, on the other hand, strive for > plausibility in the context of the early discussions on this list. > >> I'd be quite > happy to read good stories about uploads that are no more intelligent > than I am, and I think it would be a worthwhile effort, because it's a > way to familiarise readers with some concepts that they may otherwise > find bizarre and uncomfortable (and frightening) when they actually turn > up in real life. > > That's Accelerando. Have you read it? Stross was a regular on this > last way back in the dark ages. > >> That seems to me a very good reason for writing such stories, no matter > how unrealistic they might be in terms of the psychology and motivations > of real uploads. If you want to frighten people and foster resistance to > a new idea, keep it unfamiliar, unknowable and intrinsically different > to what they know. I suggest doing the opposite with the idea of > uploading. I'd rate the chances of successful acceptance far higher if > there was at least a segment of society (beyond geeks like us) who find > the idea of uploading exciting, full of possibilities, something to look > forward to (even if they think it's all a bit pie-in-the-sky) than if > the only exposure to the idea that most people had was from the luddites > and bioconservatives, etc. > > We are a long way from marketing uploads. However, I suspect that it > will require being able to try reversible uploading. > >> I just wish I had some skill as an author, or I'd be doing it myself! > This is a bad topic to try to write about. It is hard to work in a > story arc. In fact, The Clinic Seed does not have much of a story > arc. "That works if you are just interested in writing stories. It doesn't work so well when you are trying to depict a post-singularity world". Indeed. I wouldn't even think of trying to depict a post-singularity world. I maintain, though, that good stories that present uploading in a positive light would be worth writing. "That's Accelerando. Have you read it? Stross was a regular on this last way back in the dark ages." Absolutely. Several times (as well as 'Scratch Monkey', and 'Singularity Sky', and others, all of which I recommend: https://graycity.net/charles-stross/484615-scratch_monkey.html). It was the first real illustration to me of how giving things away for free can actually generate a living for an author. I first read it online, for free. Then, a while later, I read it from printouts I'd made, at the cost of the printer paper. A while after that, I bought the paperback on Amazon and read it a third time. Something I'd probably never had done if it hadn't been available in full online in the first place. If Charlie is still lurking here (I know he used to), thanks to him for both things, the story and the lesson. However, good as it was, I don't think it was so good at promoting uploading. Not in the way I'm thinking about, anyway. "This is a bad topic to try to write about. It is hard to work in a story arc". Damn, that sounds like a challenge to me. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 3 17:22:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:22:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined >? And the US only had its first COVID-19 death on March 1. Does anybody still think the quarantine was an overreaction? John K Clark These news people are failing to maintain sufficient social distancing: https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Last-to-leave-Pelosi-has-no-plans-to-close-15131648.php News people are accustomed to tightly-packed crowds. Engineers scarcely noticed the difference from before. People already didn?t like us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 17:42:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 13:42:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 1:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Just finished reading The Week. Two page story at the end about some > Republican followers in Louisiana who followed Trump and Hannity and > thought the whole thing was a hoax. Then a guy comes down with it and is > on a machine to breath. (I recommend that mag - $1 a week if worth it). I > just cannot fathom how strongly political party affiliation leads people to > stupid ideas and myths and superstitions and paranoia. > Speaking of stupid, the Republican governor of Georgia Brian Kemp said he didn't issue a stay at home order for everybody in his state until yesterday because he didn't know until yesterday that somebody could spread COVID-19 without showing any symptoms of being sick! Twelve states still haven't issued stay at home orders and every one of then has a Republican governor. And stupidity is killing people. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Apr 3 18:06:23 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 19:06:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8fcec8f4-f16a-5285-0232-b4a3885eb2df@zaiboc.net> On 03/04/2020 18:22, spike wrote: > I recommend that people do one of those DNA tests. If you are concerned > with privacy, I can explain how to do those where the identity of the DNA > cannot be determined. Spike, how can that possibly work? We can't edit our DNA sample so as to only provide a set of sequences, and not the rest. And your DNA /is/ your identity, how can it not be? Anyone who claims that they can 'anonymise' your DNA sample is probably lying, or even worse, doesn't understand what they are saying. The attachment of conventional identifiers like name, address, age, etc., is trivial compared to the DNA itself, which is the best identifier there could ever be. There are way better biologists than me on this list. Can any of them demonstrate that I'm wrong here? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 3 18:36:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 11:36:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <8fcec8f4-f16a-5285-0232-b4a3885eb2df@zaiboc.net> References: <8fcec8f4-f16a-5285-0232-b4a3885eb2df@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <00ae01d609e6$babf36f0$303da4d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 11:06 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Ben Zaiboc Subject: Re: [ExI] it's your choice On 03/04/2020 18:22, spike wrote: I recommend that people do one of those DNA tests. If you are concerned with privacy, I can explain how to do those where the identity of the DNA cannot be determined. Spike, how can that possibly work? -- Ben Zaiboc Hi Ben, What I meant was a way to purchase the kit using a third party, they buy the kit on their card, then I show you how to register it without putting anything identifying you by name, place, phone number, any of that. Reason: if you sired children you don't know about, they can't find you. I have helped several people that way, and registered the kits as my dependent. I now have at least one DNA file I do not know myself who used it, and have no good way to find out. I registered a kit, sent it to my cousin to use on his granddaughter, but he died before he sent it, his ex-wife ended up with it we think but something else happened and she didn't have it anymore. Then a coupla years later up shows this result and I don't know who eventually used that kit, but it isn't my cousin's relative and I haven't pursued figuring it out. Whoever it is, I know her multiple nationalities. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 3 18:39:53 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 11:39:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] hmmmmm, perhaps not... Message-ID: <00b501d609e7$4444e730$ccceb590$@rainier66.com> I signed up to get groceries delivered. I do hope we don't start another round of absurdity as we did yesterday around this topic, however. Shopping online, I ran across this item: I have always eschewed devouring anything that openly threatens to kill me. If it is right there in the name, I might avoid that particular brand, perhaps feeling a vague discomfort in suicidal sustenance. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21467 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 19:04:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 14:04:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <8fcec8f4-f16a-5285-0232-b4a3885eb2df@zaiboc.net> References: <8fcec8f4-f16a-5285-0232-b4a3885eb2df@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: My attitude is that my privacy is not important compared to helping science. (which you obviously already know about me, as I have mentioned weed, guns etc. in my posts). Who is going to knock on my door and for what? I not only did the test but I fill out every questionnaire they send me as to my health, my parents' health and so on. The more they can find correlations between genes and health the better I say. bill w On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 1:08 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 03/04/2020 18:22, spike wrote: > > I recommend that people do one of those DNA tests. If you are concerned > with privacy, I can explain how to do those where the identity of the DNA > cannot be determined. > > > Spike, how can that possibly work? > > We can't edit our DNA sample so as to only provide a set of sequences, and > not the rest. > > And your DNA *is* your identity, how can it not be? > > Anyone who claims that they can 'anonymise' your DNA sample is probably > lying, or even worse, doesn't understand what they are saying. > > The attachment of conventional identifiers like name, address, age, etc., > is trivial compared to the DNA itself, which is the best identifier there > could ever be. > > There are way better biologists than me on this list. Can any of them > demonstrate that I'm wrong here? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 19:07:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 14:07:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mississippi just did, very reluctantly, but they exempted all shopping, manufacturing, offices. Some hoax, right? bill w On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 12:54 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 1:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Just finished reading The Week. Two page story at the end about some >> Republican followers in Louisiana who followed Trump and Hannity and >> thought the whole thing was a hoax. Then a guy comes down with it and is >> on a machine to breath. (I recommend that mag - $1 a week if worth it). I >> just cannot fathom how strongly political party affiliation leads people to >> stupid ideas and myths and superstitions and paranoia. >> > > Speaking of stupid, the Republican governor of Georgia Brian Kemp said he > didn't issue a stay at home order for everybody in his state until > yesterday because he didn't know until yesterday that somebody could spread > COVID-19 without showing any symptoms of being sick! Twelve states still > haven't issued stay at home orders and every one of then has a Republican > governor. And stupidity is killing people. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 19:11:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 14:11:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virus Message-ID: Here in good ol Mississippi, the most cases are coming from those who went to church or a funeral. Maybe our preachers are telling people what the president of Hobby Lobby is telling everyone : God will take care of my people. (they are currently being sued for it). Wonder what Limbaugh is saying now? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 19:14:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 14:14:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] MS correction Message-ID: The most cases are coming from nursing homes. The chief of those won't even release the data, saying it would freak people out. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 19:30:45 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:30:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50B83588-C96B-4371-BE6F-05D2774B9259@gmail.com> On Mar 30, 2020, at 1:54 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > From what I read, solitary confinement is truly a horrible form of punishment. Some people go bats after just a few days. There is something very basic about being around other people Way back in history being kicked out of a tribe was the worst punishment possible. The victim usually tried to get into another one rather than live alone, which would have been a very spare life at that. I think in many cases back then, exile meant death or certainly can increased likelihood of death. > I don't know if the mind is totally changeable. I suspect it isn't. On Quora I find a lot of questions about changing one's self, one's habits. The reason is that they are difficult to very difficult to accomplish. In uploads it might be easy, but if I liked sour cream blueberry pie, which is in the oven as we speak, why would I want to change that? If I were an introvert upload and wanted to change to extrovert, I could, but why would I? I am comfortable with what I have. Curiosity, maybe. I have done many things I felt uncomfortable about initially that later I enjoyed. > I dunno. A lot of this seems so artificial, and of course that's all it is. I am deeply romantic and would hate to see that changed in any way. I hate what we are doing to this planet and don't want to live in a habitat circling Jupiter or somewhere. Why mess with perfection? Is there any perfection in just embracing WIKIWIL? (What I Know Is What I Like)Mind you, I?m not saying anyone should be forced to alter their core personality. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 20:37:50 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 16:37:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE Message-ID: The U.S. Embassy in Tokyo has just issued a very strange warning, it says due to a "*significant increase in the number of coronavirus infections* " US citizens should leave Japan. But where are they supposed to go, the US? Japan has 2306 cases of COVID-19 and deaths from it are doubling every 3 weeks, the US has 271,152 cases of COVID-19 and deaths from it are doubling every 3 days. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 21:43:53 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 17:43:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 3, 2020, 4:41 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The U.S. Embassy in Tokyo has just issued a very strange warning, it says > due to a "*significant increase in the number of coronavirus infections* > " US citizens should leave Japan. But where are they supposed to go, the > US? Japan has 2306 cases of COVID-19 and deaths from it are doubling every > 3 weeks, the US has 271,152 cases of COVID-19 and deaths from it are > doubling every 3 days. > > Given the ignorant a-holes attacking asian americans for no other reason than this virus was first identified in Asia, perhaps the embassy wanted filthy Americans to gtfo - for exactly the reason you noticed about how well our culturally conditioned stupidity turns information into behavior. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 22:36:21 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 18:36:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Millions more Americans have died from corrupt politicians giving concessions to the tobacco lobby. And even more have died from concessions to sugar and big agriculture which has led to insane rates of heart disease. These are far worse moral failings than an inept response to an acute crisis with little precedent. We have had a CHRONIC health crisis here in the past few decades--far long enough to know better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 22:44:30 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 17:44:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] hmmmmm, perhaps not... In-Reply-To: <00b501d609e7$4444e730$ccceb590$@rainier66.com> References: <00b501d609e7$4444e730$ccceb590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <378E1378-AE4F-4B47-AF83-F7BA113BC736@gmail.com> But it?s amazing bread. Really. SR Ballard > On Apr 3, 2020, at 1:39 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > I signed up to get groceries delivered. I do hope we don?t start another round of absurdity as we did yesterday around this topic, however? > > Shopping online, I ran across this item: > > > > > I have always eschewed devouring anything that openly threatens to kill me. If it is right there in the name, I might avoid that particular brand, perhaps feeling a vague discomfort in suicidal sustenance. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 3 22:57:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 15:57:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] hmmmmm, perhaps not... In-Reply-To: <378E1378-AE4F-4B47-AF83-F7BA113BC736@gmail.com> References: <00b501d609e7$4444e730$ccceb590$@rainier66.com> <378E1378-AE4F-4B47-AF83-F7BA113BC736@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008d01d60a0b$4c375120$e4a5f360$@rainier66.com> On Apr 3, 2020, at 1:39 PM, spike jones ? >>?I have always eschewed devouring anything that openly threatens to kill me. If it is right there in the name, I might avoid that particular brand, perhaps feeling a vague discomfort in suicidal sustenance. spike _______________________________________________ From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] hmmmmm, perhaps not... >?But it?s amazing bread. Really. SR Ballard I see. We might be seeing a failure in marketing. If they were to call it Amazing Bread, rather that Killer, I might be more willing to devour it. Perhaps the makers of Wonderbread had the same idea after the abject failure of their first marketing attempt, in which they named their product Barf Bread. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 23:09:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 18:09:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One thing you can say about our politicians: Maybe they are the best in the world at staying bought. bill w On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:38 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Millions more Americans have died from corrupt politicians giving > concessions to the tobacco lobby. And even more have died from concessions > to sugar and big agriculture which has led to insane rates of heart > disease. These are far worse moral failings than an inept response to an > acute crisis with little precedent. We have had a CHRONIC health crisis > here in the past few decades--far long enough to know better. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 23:14:03 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 10:14:03 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: <80585f0d-a438-3264-b9f8-00e6ece128a1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 07:41, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Why would they do that? The chief pleasure of many extroverts in >> talking with people and sharing ideas and so on. >> > > But if somebody had total control of their emotional control panel then > they could change that so their chief pleasure would come from whatever > they wanted it to come from. John > > From what I read, solitary confinement is truly a horrible form of > punishment. Some people go bats after just a few days. There is > something very basic about being around other people Way back in history > being kicked out of a tribe was the worst punishment possible. The victim > usually tried to get into another one rather than live alone, which would > have been a very spare life at that. > > I don't know if the mind is totally changeable. I suspect it isn't. On > Quora I find a lot of questions about changing one's self, one's habits. > The reason is that they are difficult to very difficult to accomplish. In > uploads it might be easy, but if I liked sour cream blueberry pie, which is > in the oven as we speak, why would I want to change that? If I were an > introvert upload and wanted to change to extrovert, I could, but why would > I? I am comfortable with what I have. > It is indeed difficult to literally change your mind. We have psychotherapy and drugs, which can help, but are quite crude. But imagine that everyone could change mental attributes such as personality, motivations, likes and dislikes as easily as we can change our clothes. What sort of people would we be? I think that most people?s ideal version of themselves is better than the actual version, so the ability to attain it would result in a better society. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 23:15:27 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 18:15:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] un ballo in maschera Message-ID: from the NYT - reversal To mask or not to mask? For the past few months, public health officials have been unyielding in their stance that healthy people should not wear masks as a way to protect themselves from coronavirus. But with new information about how the virus is spread ? potentially through the air and by people with no symptoms ? the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Friday recommended that everyone wear nonmedical face coverings in public settings. So if a husband and wife make love while wearing masks they are simulating the opera! bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 23:32:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 19:32:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 3:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Here in good ol Mississippi, the most cases are coming from those who > went to church or a funeral. > The Republican governors of Ohio and Florida finally issued a stay at home order a few days ago but both made sure to make an exception if hundreds or thousands of people want to gather in one room so they could talk to an invisible man in the sky. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 00:03:34 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 19:03:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Death doubling time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7925F15D-8E38-4439-BF4E-A3DC6E2F8456@gmail.com> I doubt Iran?s number even more than China?s. SR Ballard > On Apr 3, 2020, at 7:47 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > Just thought I'd give you some statistics. Only 2 countries in the world have a higher number of COVID-19 deaths than the US, Italy and Spain. Italy's number of deaths is doubling every 10 days. Spain's number of deaths is doubling every 6 days. The number of deaths in the US is doubling every 3 days, and no nation that has had more than 25 deaths has a faster doubling time than that. Iran, which not long ago was considered the prototypical example of a nation that had totally bungled it's response to the virus, has a doubling time of 2 weeks. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 00:03:05 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 17:03:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: snip > However, good as it [Accelerando] was, I don't think it was so good at promoting uploading. Not in the way I'm thinking about, anyway. That could be because Charles has reservations about uploading (like I do) and does not want to promote it that much. _Rapture of the Nerds_ a 2012 novel by Cory Doctorow and Charles Stross has some of the same ambiguous flavor. [Keith] "This is a bad topic to try to write about. It is hard to work in a story arc". > Damn, that sounds like a challenge to me. As close as The Clinic Seed has to a story arc is the bit about the leopard. "The tata was home to the leopard for the rest of his life." Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 4 00:13:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 17:13:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Death doubling time In-Reply-To: <7925F15D-8E38-4439-BF4E-A3DC6E2F8456@gmail.com> References: <7925F15D-8E38-4439-BF4E-A3DC6E2F8456@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f701d60a15$e644d530$b2ce7f90$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Death doubling time I doubt Iran?s number even more than China?s. SR Ballard On Apr 3, 2020, at 7:47 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: Just thought I'd give you some statistics. Only 2 countries in ? John K Clark _______________________________________________ We have seen plenty of different governance models with results converging to similar endpoints. I am beginning to suspect that governments cannot control disease. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 01:46:46 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 20:46:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: <80585f0d-a438-3264-b9f8-00e6ece128a1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I think that most people?s ideal version of themselves is better than the actual version, so the ability to attain it would result in a better society. > -- Stathis Papaioannou So we are going to have an Earth covered with movie stars - you realize that, don't you? Women are going to design themselves anew every season, just like they get new clothes designs every year. And women do it to please other women - they are not doing it for males. Intragender competition. Stay out of it. Stay out of women's hair in every sense you can think of for it. Married four times - take my word for it. bill w On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 6:19 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 07:41, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Why would they do that? The chief pleasure of many extroverts in >>> talking with people and sharing ideas and so on. >>> >> >> But if somebody had total control of their emotional control panel then >> they could change that so their chief pleasure would come from whatever >> they wanted it to come from. John >> >> From what I read, solitary confinement is truly a horrible form of >> punishment. Some people go bats after just a few days. There is >> something very basic about being around other people Way back in history >> being kicked out of a tribe was the worst punishment possible. The victim >> usually tried to get into another one rather than live alone, which would >> have been a very spare life at that. >> >> I don't know if the mind is totally changeable. I suspect it isn't. On >> Quora I find a lot of questions about changing one's self, one's habits. >> The reason is that they are difficult to very difficult to accomplish. In >> uploads it might be easy, but if I liked sour cream blueberry pie, which is >> in the oven as we speak, why would I want to change that? If I were an >> introvert upload and wanted to change to extrovert, I could, but why would >> I? I am comfortable with what I have. >> > > It is indeed difficult to literally change your mind. We have > psychotherapy and drugs, which can help, but are quite crude. But imagine > that everyone could change mental attributes such as personality, > motivations, likes and dislikes as easily as we can change our clothes. > What sort of people would we be? I think that most people?s ideal version > of themselves is better than the actual version, so the ability to attain > it would result in a better society. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 01:48:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 20:48:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] no sense money Message-ID: If I am reading the criteria correctly, my wife and I will get $2400. Why? Both retired. Stay at home costs me nothing - saves a bit in fact. >From the taxpayer's view I am ripping the system off. I'll take the money but I don't like it. It's not the money's fault - it's neutral - no such thing as tainted money. I will buy some if you want to get rid of tainted money. Price negotiable. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 02:58:01 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 19:58:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice Message-ID: wrote: > Keith, sensa huma, me lad. Some of this stuff is *not* funny. > We know how race is used in our modern world, but at some point we must recognize that we moderns are in a rather absurd situation where gender is a choice but race is not. Gender reassignment (Christine Jorgensen) has been a reality since I was ten years old. As you point out, it does not change whatever sex chromosomes a person has. > Clearly everyone is a mixture of races. Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." (Wikipedia) Races came about from the common selection of a group over a long enough time for certain patterns of genes to become common. In some cases, the groups have existed for 200,000 years or more. And everyone is *not* a mix of present-day races. > That one really is ambiguous. A few of us (perhaps a tenth of a percent) are genetically ambiguous gender (trisomy or ring chromosome 13) but for everyone else, it is either XX or XY. You left out 47,XXX, 47,XXY, 47,XYY and 48,XXYY plus some other rare cases. > But most of us have ancestors from all over. If you intend "us* to mean humans, I doubt it. The vast majority of Chinese are not of mixed origin. Neither are most of the Europeans. That's is a US pattern and more generally places the Europeans (particularly the northwest Europeans) colonized. You might note that the Europeans did not do well in the tropics. They were selected for other characteristics than parasite resistance. > If you do just the 60 dollar DNA test, you can see that, and if you have a friend interested in this sorta thing, you can find out all kindsa cool stuff, including. most of us are a mixture of what we are now calling races, which are multiplying daily it seems. 23andMe claims that I am 100% whitebread. Big deal. I clearly lack the genes to accumulate wealth. > So now we are in a society where men can compete in womens' sports, where gender is a choice but one cannot change by choice from one's assigned race? Indeed? Of course we can. Anything represented anywhere in our DNA is among our choices. I know of no rule that specifies we are always stuck with the majority race found in our DNA, and know examples where people have been assigned against their will to a trace of their DNA content. You cannot change your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. Where you came from is significant because in some places (northwest Europe, China, Japan) there has been substantial selection for the characteristics that made them able to host the industrial revolution and (for a while) dominate the world. Read Clark for the evidence that our UK ancestors were under intense selection for at least 400 years. Clark points out that the selection pressures were really odd in the UK. The "stable agrarian society" selected for a very different set of characteristics from places where parasite resistance was more important than literacy or impulse control. I was amazed to find that about 6000 genes (out of 20,000) are thought to be involved in RNA or DNA virus resistance. Tropical parasite resistance might involve even more genes. > Are we really now in a place where gender is a choice but race is not? DNA gender is not a choice, neither are your parents or your genetic selection history. > I recommend that people do one of those DNA tests. They certainly do lead to some strange places. For example, I am related to one Donald Funcannon through Nancy (born 1796), a sister of John Henson, my ggg grandfather. Her life was interesting enough to have left tracks, including mixed-race children. I should put more effort into finding some of the papers and perhaps more of her descendants. I think you mentioned your mixed-race ancestry was 5 generations back. I am more Neanderthal (different species!) than you are mixed from that event. It would be silly, but I could claim to be Neanderthal to the same extent you are (fallaciously?) are claiming to be African. Keith PS. If you project into the future far enough, then forget minor stuff like changing gender. Changing species will be an option. From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 4 03:31:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 20:31:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015901d60a31$99b79970$cd26cc50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] it's your choice < spike at rainier66.com> wrote: I do take the notion lightly, for I am watching a time when the concept of race is being stretched beyond recognition. It used to be pretty simple. But now, it really isn't. For instance... We have a system for rating local schools. It uses test scores, social factors, all the usual stuff, but it takes into account race. A two schools with all the same numbers in every category can raise its rating by claiming more racial minorities in its demographics. It wasn't that big of a deal really until Mr. Musk set up his car factory and imported Indians as fast as he could get them. Some Indians have very dark skin. Naturally, they began to claim to be black, in order to raise the local school's rating, which dramatically improves real estate values. I am not kidding: if Mr. Srinivasa Subramanian comes in claiming to be black, wellllll... he is that. Who gets to tell him he is not? GreatSchools breaks down student performance into six categories. I took this from their site: They don't really know what to do when a Pakistani guy shows up speaking flawless Spanish and claiming to be Hispanic. They don't really question it. Plenty of Vietnamese are claiming to be part Filipino, and they identify as that. So. who gets to tell them no? Answer: no one does. In those cases for sure, the school takes their word for how they identify, and the school's rating goes up, and real estate values go up. All ya hafta do is log on to Zillow.com to see some dramatic results from creative identity. spike >.I think you mentioned your mixed-race ancestry was 5 generations back. I am more Neanderthal (different species!) than you are mixed from that event. Keith The Neanderthal business is controversial. There hasta be a pile of money to be made off it however. We could invent a system for excusing much of male behavior, create kind of a license or something, provide an excuse for the stuff we boys do: we are part cave man. That actually sounds quite appealing: a kind of specialized version of Burning Man, but it is Neanderthal parties. We temporarily put away our cell phones, FitBit watches, sense of propriety, show up in animal skins, eat lotsa red meat, act on our basest instincts, that sorta thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21475 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 03:39:50 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 23:39:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <015901d60a31$99b79970$cd26cc50$@rainier66.com> References: <015901d60a31$99b79970$cd26cc50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Sometimes y'all really act like professional word mincers. Arguing over definitions seems so very nebulous -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 04:41:14 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 23:41:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] no sense money In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You?re supposed to spend it :) SR Ballard > On Apr 3, 2020, at 8:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > If I am reading the criteria correctly, my wife and I will get $2400. > > Why? Both retired. Stay at home costs me nothing - saves a bit in fact. From the taxpayer's view I am ripping the system off. I'll take the money but I don't like it. It's not the money's fault - it's neutral - no such thing as tainted money. I will buy some if you want to get rid of tainted money. Price negotiable. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 04:47:56 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 23:47:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A22C61D-8715-44AC-B3A5-AE8C161D980C@gmail.com> >Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. >?A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." (Wikipedia) You literally just ruined your own argument. A race is ... shared social qualities. That means literally nothing genetically. By this definition of race it?s just a type of grouping with no objective genetic basis. > On Apr 3, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. > > "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social > qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." > (Wikipedia) From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 05:20:41 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 22:20:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice Message-ID: wrote: > I do take the notion lightly, for I am watching a time when the concept of race is being stretched beyond recognition. It used to be pretty simple. But now, it really isn't. > For instance... > We have a system for rating local schools. It uses test scores, social factors, all the usual stuff, but it takes into account race. At two schools with all the same numbers in every category can raise its rating by claiming more racial minorities in its demographics. I wonder what possible reasoning was involved? > It wasn't that big of a deal really until Mr. Musk set up his car factory and imported Indians as fast as he could get them. Some Indians have very dark skin. Naturally, they began to claim to be black, That list you included as a .jpg did not include "black." If they are claiming to be African American, that's serious lying. > in order to raise the local school's rating, which dramatically improves real estate values. I am not kidding: if Mr. Srinivasa Subramanian comes in claiming to be black, wellllll... he is that. Who gets to tell him he is not? This makes no sense. Is this really happening? > GreatSchools breaks down student performance into six categories. I took this from their site: I looked at that site. It's huge but the underlying sampling looks sparse. Can you point me to where they raise the status of the school by having *more* African Americans in it? > They don't really know what to do when a Pakistani guy shows up speaking flawless Spanish and claiming to be Hispanic. They don't really question it. Plenty of Vietnamese are claiming to be part Filipino, and they identify as that. So. who gets to tell them no? Who cares? Your Pakistani example--my guess is that's so rare as to doubt there is even one person in this category. > Answer: no one does. In those cases for sure, the school takes their word for how they identify, and the school's rating goes up, and real estate values go up. All ya hafta do is log on to Zillow.com to see some dramatic results from creative identity. If this is true, it would make a rather interesting study. Do you have a pointer to any such study? > The Neanderthal business is controversial. Not really. Don't forget that it has been some time since a Neanderthal genome was sequenced. > There hasta be a pile of money to be made off it, however. For sure! I have talked about this for a long time. Neanderthals were very strong and engaged in "close confrontation hunting." Selected human surrogates could carry reconstructed zygotes to term. The first guy who raised enough of them for a football team will clean up. However, times change. The brain damage problems may end American football before a Neanderthal team could grow up. Keith From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Apr 4 09:27:09 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 10:27:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <844791da-1941-42d5-8db0-2c15819d41ad@zaiboc.net> On 04/04/2020 04:32, Stathis wrote: > imagine that everyone could change mental attributes such as > personality, motivations, likes and dislikes as easily as we can > change our clothes. What sort of people would we be? That's a very good question. I suspect the kind of people who tend to haunt lists like this one would mostly answer "better people". Personally, I'd mean it in the sense that someone who can make those changes is better than someone who can't, rather than in the sense that they'd inevitably turn themselves into better people. I suspect that a large proportion of the general population, though, would have different answers. Many would answer "worse people", on the basis that such abilities would be 'unnatural', and therefore bad. Many would also assume that it could only go horribly wrong, and we can't be trusted with such abilities. I suppose the most significant thing, though, would be how many people would want a ban on such abilities? -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 12:51:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 08:51:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The German oddity Message-ID: Germany has over 90,000 people infected with COVID-19, only the US, Italy and Spain have more, but for some reason the deaths from it is remarkably low there, only 1.3%; in comparison the death rate in Italy is 12%, in Spain it's 10%, in the US it's 2.5%. Part of the reason may be Germany's aggressive use of testing and their excellent health care system, they tend to hospitalize people who test positive for the virus even if their symptoms are mild because they have built lots of intensive care beds for them and they know their condition can change for the worse very rapidly and their chances of survival are much better if they're in a hospital when that happens. The death rate in the US will certainly increase when doctors start rationing ventilators and are forced to decide who should live and who should die, and that will probably begin in the next week. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 4 13:07:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 06:07:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] no sense money In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002f01d60a81$f5cf97d0$e16ec770$@rainier66.com> If I am reading the criteria correctly, my wife and I will get $2400. Why? Both retired. bill w From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] no sense money You?re supposed to spend it :) SR Ballard So true, SR. I intend to spend mine on some terrific stock deals available recently. It is pretty close to a buy two get one free sale on the industrials and blue chips, the steady dividend yielders, loooootsa bargains out there. There are a hundred ways to capitalize on this and help mankind at the same time: invest in companies that shape the future. Consider this idea: there is a general shutdown of stores, but the essential businesses stay open, grocery stores, pharmacies, gun shops for instance. All three are doing well, but the gun shops are doing a booming business. Figuratively! (Note this is the old-time definition, where I mean ?figuratively? literally. I am from back in the days before people started claiming figuratively spoken comments were literally. Quite annoying was that habit of calling everything literally when the intended adjective was ?extremely.? I never switched those definitions, where literal is figurative and figurative is literal. But I digress in a most annoying manner. The gun shops are doing a figuratively booming business, so all these goofy proles who don?t know what the heck they are doing are panic buying all this expensive gear with no idea which end to point downrange, or how to operate it safely, then once they settle down, they will realize they bought the wrong thing. For instance, AR-15 ammo is spendy expensive for indoor ranges, and ill-suited for that purpose anyway really. It is kind of a status symbol there, but if ya can?t hit target, the others know you are some silly yahoo with more dollars than cents. To take full advantage of that type of gear, one needs a lot of open space, which means a road trip, an all-day excursion for people who live around here, and plenty of the goofballs who bought those don?t have a day to invest in that sport because they work in their leisure time, so they bought the wrong thing. A potential market emerges: lotsa people with something they don?t want or who want something else which costs less, we figure out way to educate them a bit, work out a deal, they get safety instruction, we end up with their high-end shootin arns which we sell back to the shops, some of it still in the shrink-wrapped boxes for 70 cents on the dollar, the consumer gets lower cost better suited devices for what they originally intended (a false sense of security), they benefit, we make a buttload. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 4 13:13:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 06:13:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <6A22C61D-8715-44AC-B3A5-AE8C161D980C@gmail.com> References: <6A22C61D-8715-44AC-B3A5-AE8C161D980C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003701d60a82$c67ee700$537cb500$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 9:48 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: SR Ballard Subject: Re: [ExI] it's your choice >Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. >?A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." (Wikipedia) You literally just ruined your own argument. A race is ... shared social qualities. That means literally nothing genetically. By this definition of race it?s just a type of grouping with no objective genetic basis. > On Apr 3, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. > > "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social > qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." > (Wikipedia) _______________________________________________ The above comment suddenly makes sense of a puzzling observation. We can't change our DNA (yet) but we can choose what culture we embrace. Certainly we can convert to any religion we want, ja? We can even become one of the DNA-related religions, such as ultra-orthodox Jew, if we work at it a bit and have enough money. If race is a shared culture and shared social qualities, and if we wish to embrace the notion that race is not a choice, then we are not completely free to embrace a culture into which we weren't born. This would explain why society is exploring the puzzling new sin of "cultural appropriation." Thanks SR! spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 13:13:40 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 08:13:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am more Neanderthal (different species!) Keith Huh? I thought that the definition of a species was that members of different species can't breed successfully. bill w On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 10:00 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > wrote: > > > Keith, sensa huma, me lad. > > Some of this stuff is *not* funny. > > > We know how race is used in our modern world, > but at some point we must recognize that we moderns are in a rather absurd > situation where gender is a choice but race is not. > > Gender reassignment (Christine Jorgensen) has been a reality since I > was ten years old. As you point out, it does not change whatever sex > chromosomes a person has. > > > Clearly everyone is a mixture of races. > > Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. > > "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social > qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." > (Wikipedia) > > Races came about from the common selection of a group over a long > enough time for certain patterns of genes to become common. In some > cases, the groups have existed for 200,000 years or more. > > And everyone is *not* a mix of present-day races. > > > That one really is ambiguous. A few of us (perhaps a > tenth of a percent) are genetically ambiguous gender (trisomy or ring > chromosome 13) but for everyone else, it is either XX or XY. > > You left out 47,XXX, 47,XXY, 47,XYY and 48,XXYY plus some other rare cases. > > > But most of us have ancestors from all over. > > If you intend "us* to mean humans, I doubt it. The vast majority of > Chinese are not of mixed origin. Neither are most of the Europeans. > That's is a US pattern and more generally places the Europeans > (particularly the northwest Europeans) colonized. You might note that > the Europeans did not do well in the tropics. They were selected for > other characteristics than parasite resistance. > > > If you do just the 60 dollar > DNA test, you can see that, and if you have a friend interested in this > sorta thing, you can find out all kindsa cool stuff, including. most of us > are a mixture of what we are now calling races, which are multiplying daily > it seems. > > 23andMe claims that I am 100% whitebread. Big deal. I clearly lack > the genes to accumulate wealth. > > > So now we are in a society where men can compete in womens' sports, > where gender is a choice but one cannot change by choice from one's > assigned race? Indeed? Of course we can. Anything represented anywhere > in our DNA is among our choices. I know of no rule that specifies we are > always stuck > with the majority race found in our DNA, and know examples where > people have been assigned against their will to a trace of their DNA > content. > > You cannot change your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. > Where you came from is significant because in some places (northwest > Europe, China, Japan) there has been substantial selection for the > characteristics that made them able to host the industrial revolution > and (for a while) dominate the world. Read Clark for the evidence > that our UK ancestors were under intense selection for at least 400 > years. > > Clark points out that the selection pressures were really odd in the > UK. The "stable agrarian society" selected for a very different set > of characteristics from places where parasite resistance was more > important than literacy or impulse control. > > I was amazed to find that about 6000 genes (out of 20,000) are thought > to be involved in RNA or DNA virus resistance. Tropical parasite > resistance might involve even more genes. > > > Are we really now in a place where gender is a choice but race is not? > > DNA gender is not a choice, neither are your parents or your genetic > selection history. > > > I recommend that people do one of those DNA tests. > > They certainly do lead to some strange places. For example, I am > related to one Donald Funcannon through Nancy (born 1796), a sister of > John Henson, my ggg grandfather. Her life was interesting enough to > have left tracks, including mixed-race children. I should put more > effort into finding some of the papers and perhaps more of her > descendants. > > I think you mentioned your mixed-race ancestry was 5 generations back. > I am more Neanderthal (different species!) than you are mixed from > that event. It would be silly, but I could claim to be Neanderthal to > the same extent you are (fallaciously?) are claiming to be African. > > Keith > > PS. If you project into the future far enough, then forget minor > stuff like changing gender. Changing species will be an option. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 13:21:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 08:21:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] no sense money In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well thanks! As I am a contrarian, I'll save it and let the country go down the drain. bill w On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 11:43 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You?re supposed to spend it :) > > SR Ballard > > On Apr 3, 2020, at 8:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > If I am reading the criteria correctly, my wife and I will get $2400. > > Why? Both retired. Stay at home costs me nothing - saves a bit in fact. > From the taxpayer's view I am ripping the system off. I'll take the money > but I don't like it. It's not the money's fault - it's neutral - no such > thing as tainted money. I will buy some if you want to get rid of tainted > money. Price negotiable. > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 13:39:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 08:39:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <003701d60a82$c67ee700$537cb500$@rainier66.com> References: <6A22C61D-8715-44AC-B3A5-AE8C161D980C@gmail.com> <003701d60a82$c67ee700$537cb500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This would explain why society is exploring the puzzling new sin of "cultural appropriation." spike People are scared of being overwhelmed by other cultures - the result of widespread immigration, worldwide communication, worldwide travel and so on. They want to retain their cultural identity,like the problem the French have with Muslims - Muslims will never be 'French'. They will hold to their own culture wherever they are. Other groups are like this too. Thus people who identify with a different culture (race?) are horning in something they are not entitled to, whether as a matter of skin color, country of origin, or something else. Stick with your group, your customs, your music, your art and so on and don't steal ours. Now why a group would not be proud that someone from another culture loved theirs is another question. The Asians are taking over classical music, most of which is European. Some don't like this at all, and some are glad that someone is keeping it alive. The whole concept of appropriation was created by the East Coast liberals, I think. Stupid, if you ask me - or if you don't. bill w On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 8:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 9:48 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: SR Ballard > Subject: Re: [ExI] it's your choice > > >Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. > > >?A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social > qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." > (Wikipedia) > > You literally just ruined your own argument. > > A race is ... shared social qualities. > > That means literally nothing genetically. > > By this definition of race it?s just a type of grouping with no objective > genetic basis. > > > On Apr 3, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. > > > > "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social > > qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." > > (Wikipedia) > > _______________________________________________ > > > The above comment suddenly makes sense of a puzzling observation. > > We can't change our DNA (yet) but we can choose what culture we embrace. > Certainly we can convert to any religion we want, ja? We can even become > one of the DNA-related religions, such as ultra-orthodox Jew, if we work at > it a bit and have enough money. > > If race is a shared culture and shared social qualities, and if we wish to > embrace the notion that race is not a choice, then we are not completely > free to embrace a culture into which we weren't born. > > This would explain why society is exploring the puzzling new sin of > "cultural appropriation." > > Thanks SR! > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidmc at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 14:58:01 2020 From: davidmc at gmail.com (David McFadzean) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 10:58:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keith Henson via extropy-chat >> But most of us have ancestors from all over. > If you intend "us* to mean humans, I doubt it. The vast majority of > Chinese are not of mixed origin. Neither are most of the Europeans. You may be surprised to learn that the identical ancestors point is only 5000-15000 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_ancestors_point On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 10:59 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > wrote: > > > Keith, sensa huma, me lad. > > Some of this stuff is *not* funny. > > > We know how race is used in our modern world, > but at some point we must recognize that we moderns are in a rather absurd > situation where gender is a choice but race is not. > > Gender reassignment (Christine Jorgensen) has been a reality since I > was ten years old. As you point out, it does not change whatever sex > chromosomes a person has. > > > Clearly everyone is a mixture of races. > > Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. > > "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social > qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." > (Wikipedia) > > Races came about from the common selection of a group over a long > enough time for certain patterns of genes to become common. In some > cases, the groups have existed for 200,000 years or more. > > And everyone is *not* a mix of present-day races. > > > That one really is ambiguous. A few of us (perhaps a > tenth of a percent) are genetically ambiguous gender (trisomy or ring > chromosome 13) but for everyone else, it is either XX or XY. > > You left out 47,XXX, 47,XXY, 47,XYY and 48,XXYY plus some other rare cases. > > > But most of us have ancestors from all over. > > If you intend "us* to mean humans, I doubt it. The vast majority of > Chinese are not of mixed origin. Neither are most of the Europeans. > That's is a US pattern and more generally places the Europeans > (particularly the northwest Europeans) colonized. You might note that > the Europeans did not do well in the tropics. They were selected for > other characteristics than parasite resistance. > > > If you do just the 60 dollar > DNA test, you can see that, and if you have a friend interested in this > sorta thing, you can find out all kindsa cool stuff, including. most of us > are a mixture of what we are now calling races, which are multiplying daily > it seems. > > 23andMe claims that I am 100% whitebread. Big deal. I clearly lack > the genes to accumulate wealth. > > > So now we are in a society where men can compete in womens' sports, > where gender is a choice but one cannot change by choice from one's > assigned race? Indeed? Of course we can. Anything represented anywhere > in our DNA is among our choices. I know of no rule that specifies we are > always stuck > with the majority race found in our DNA, and know examples where > people have been assigned against their will to a trace of their DNA > content. > > You cannot change your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. > Where you came from is significant because in some places (northwest > Europe, China, Japan) there has been substantial selection for the > characteristics that made them able to host the industrial revolution > and (for a while) dominate the world. Read Clark for the evidence > that our UK ancestors were under intense selection for at least 400 > years. > > Clark points out that the selection pressures were really odd in the > UK. The "stable agrarian society" selected for a very different set > of characteristics from places where parasite resistance was more > important than literacy or impulse control. > > I was amazed to find that about 6000 genes (out of 20,000) are thought > to be involved in RNA or DNA virus resistance. Tropical parasite > resistance might involve even more genes. > > > Are we really now in a place where gender is a choice but race is not? > > DNA gender is not a choice, neither are your parents or your genetic > selection history. > > > I recommend that people do one of those DNA tests. > > They certainly do lead to some strange places. For example, I am > related to one Donald Funcannon through Nancy (born 1796), a sister of > John Henson, my ggg grandfather. Her life was interesting enough to > have left tracks, including mixed-race children. I should put more > effort into finding some of the papers and perhaps more of her > descendants. > > I think you mentioned your mixed-race ancestry was 5 generations back. > I am more Neanderthal (different species!) than you are mixed from > that event. It would be silly, but I could claim to be Neanderthal to > the same extent you are (fallaciously?) are claiming to be African. > > Keith > > PS. If you project into the future far enough, then forget minor > stuff like changing gender. Changing species will be an option. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 4 15:42:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 08:42:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d60a97$b79a23c0$26ce6b40$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > I do take the notion lightly, for I am watching a time when the > concept of race is being stretched beyond recognition. It used to be pretty simple. But now, it really isn't... Clarification of my earlier comment please, regarding the 60 dollar DNA tests. There is plenty of guesswork and wishful thinking in the genealogy game. What those DNA tests are really good for is connecting you with 3rd and 4th cousins who you really can verify are actual genetic relatives with these cheapy tests. If you have a group of those, often 300 to 1000 people, someone or some-many in that group are going to know one hell of a lot about your common ancestor. They might have inherited the actual documentation, or live near where the old timers lived and know the family stories from a loooong time ago, in some cases know right where the family originated in the old country. Wishful thinking: we were discussing how people somehow identify with a particular culture, perhaps they just dig their style there, even if there is no genetic component. Example: Japan. I like theirs: clean, orderly, high tech, all the stuff I like and admire in a society, but I can assure you I have no Japanese ancestors. Consider the American, such as my mother, who went on a tour of Europe when she was about 50. She knew nothing of her ancestry, just went with a tour group, was there four weeks, did all the tourist stuff, had fun, went to the art museums and the castles and all the usual things, but there was one standout experience: the group was in Germany and they went somewhere and had a big party completely had a blast. They loved it. My mother considered it the highlight of the trip. 20 yrs went by, cheap DNA tests became available, we did them, part of our DNA traced back to a region in Germany, not all that far from where they had the big German party on the tour. She learned of the German connection for the first time, after the DNA test. But as far as my mother is concerned, she is German now (Jewish at that.) Well OK then. I can show her that I am more German than she is, and that we are both more Scotch than German, but I just play along. There is wishful thinking mixed with the science if you go in for that sorta thing. Still I am looking forward to going to Germany in the next few years and finding the ancestral homeland. I have a 3rd cousin who has been there and verified the stories. I'll take my yarmulke. Might go to Scotland and find the other homeland as well. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 16:16:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 11:16:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <000001d60a97$b79a23c0$26ce6b40$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d60a97$b79a23c0$26ce6b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: My aunt went to the Isle of Man searching for relatives, before DNA testing. She was in some shop and told a person who she was looking for. The clerk was a member of that family! They hugged and cried and so on. Good for them. I just have no feelings for 3 cousins - there must be hundreds or thousands of them. All of my 'first cousins' were adopted. Only Mama had kids out of four siblings. I don't know what you get out of it, Spike, but I hope you get all you want. You could say hello to my cousins in Scotland - but there must be thousands of William Wallaces around, so if you mention my name they will likely say "So?" bill w On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Keith Henson via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > I do take the notion lightly, for I am watching a time when the > > concept of race is being stretched beyond recognition. It used to be > pretty simple. But now, it really isn't... > > > > Clarification of my earlier comment please, regarding the 60 dollar DNA > tests. > > There is plenty of guesswork and wishful thinking in the genealogy game. > What those DNA tests are really good for is connecting you with 3rd and 4th > cousins who you really can verify are actual genetic relatives with these > cheapy tests. If you have a group of those, often 300 to 1000 people, > someone or some-many in that group are going to know one hell of a lot > about > your common ancestor. They might have inherited the actual documentation, > or live near where the old timers lived and know the family stories from a > loooong time ago, in some cases know right where the family originated in > the old country. > > Wishful thinking: we were discussing how people somehow identify with a > particular culture, perhaps they just dig their style there, even if there > is no genetic component. Example: Japan. I like theirs: clean, orderly, > high tech, all the stuff I like and admire in a society, but I can assure > you I have no Japanese ancestors. > > Consider the American, such as my mother, who went on a tour of Europe when > she was about 50. She knew nothing of her ancestry, just went with a tour > group, was there four weeks, did all the tourist stuff, had fun, went to > the > art museums and the castles and all the usual things, but there was one > standout experience: the group was in Germany and they went somewhere and > had a big party completely had a blast. They loved it. My mother > considered it the highlight of the trip. > > 20 yrs went by, cheap DNA tests became available, we did them, part of our > DNA traced back to a region in Germany, not all that far from where they > had > the big German party on the tour. She learned of the German connection for > the first time, after the DNA test. But as far as my mother is concerned, > she is German now (Jewish at that.) Well OK then. > > I can show her that I am more German than she is, and that we are both more > Scotch than German, but I just play along. > > There is wishful thinking mixed with the science if you go in for that > sorta > thing. > > Still I am looking forward to going to Germany in the next few years and > finding the ancestral homeland. I have a 3rd cousin who has been there and > verified the stories. I'll take my yarmulke. Might go to Scotland and > find > the other homeland as well. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 4 16:42:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 09:42:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: <000001d60a97$b79a23c0$26ce6b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d60aa0$04da7880$0e8f6980$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?I just have no feelings for 3 cousins - there must be hundreds or thousands of them? Ja. >? I don't know what you get out of it, Spike, but I hope you get all you want? bill w I want to see if we can succeed where 23&Me failed. The idea behind 23 was get a bunch of people to do DNA tests, group them, have them fill out surveys about their health, see if there are certain conditions that run in certain DNA-clades. Good idea, but I would call it generally a failure for a reason we mighta anticipated: surveys by users on their own health is some of the lowest quality data there is. Reason: plenty of people, really most people, don?t really know what is wrong with them and don?t know what is right with them. For instance? plenty of people imagine they have conditions they do not have. Or they imagine they have conditions that they keep under control by drinking four drops of {grapefruit seed extract, vitamin x, supply condition and treatment} but they don?t have that condition, never did. Populations don?t know what is right with them either, because they aren?t aware of that condition at all, they never heard of it. They miss some signals, such as a group relative immunity to something that rips a different DNA group elsewhere. For instance: suppose an Eastern European DNA group doesn?t ever get acne during adolescence. We already know some teens never get that, but it would be easy to miss if they is a genetic component in there somewhere. They can ask about it on the survey and still miss it, but I realized long after the fact that I went thru those years and never did have more than a very slight case of that, while others were torn up with it. Something like that would be easy to miss. Well, OK then, the 23 experiment may have been a general failure, but the idea was good. Now suppose we can put together some kind of database which allows software to scour through and look for signals. And suppose that over time, accurate DNA genealogical information does accumulate, along with reliable information on the location of the roots back when people travelled less than the do now and hundreds of generations went by with not a lot of DNA coming in or going out. We find better ways to map out all that, then we try the 23&Me experiment again, but this time with more and better medical diagnostics, more and better DNA-genealogy and so forth. BillW, regarding all I want: I am setting up a database to collect groups of descendants of a common ancestor. Then we can look for medical conditions within those groups, searching for stuff that might be out of the normal range. When you think about it, evolutionary psychology is kinda sorta that same idea, only that looks at behaviors, rather than medical conditions or physical traits. I will leave that to the experts, while I do my thing: looking for stuff like a particular oddball medical condition that seems more prevalent in a group for instance. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 17:00:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 12:00:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <001b01d60aa0$04da7880$0e8f6980$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d60a97$b79a23c0$26ce6b40$@rainier66.com> <001b01d60aa0$04da7880$0e8f6980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You must know things I don't about 23 and me. How do you know the surveys are failures? bill w On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > > >?I just have no feelings for 3 cousins - there must be hundreds or > thousands of them? > > > > Ja. > > > > >? I don't know what you get out of it, Spike, but I hope you get all > you want? > > bill w > > > > I want to see if we can succeed where 23&Me failed. > > > > The idea behind 23 was get a bunch of people to do DNA tests, group them, > have them fill out surveys about their health, see if there are certain > conditions that run in certain DNA-clades. > > > > Good idea, but I would call it generally a failure for a reason we mighta > anticipated: surveys by users on their own health is some of the lowest > quality data there is. Reason: plenty of people, really most people, don?t > really know what is wrong with them and don?t know what is right with them. > > > > For instance? plenty of people imagine they have conditions they do not > have. Or they imagine they have conditions that they keep under control by > drinking four drops of {grapefruit seed extract, vitamin x, supply > condition and treatment} but they don?t have that condition, never did. > > > > Populations don?t know what is right with them either, because they aren?t > aware of that condition at all, they never heard of it. They miss some > signals, such as a group relative immunity to something that rips a > different DNA group elsewhere. For instance: suppose an Eastern European > DNA group doesn?t ever get acne during adolescence. We already know some > teens never get that, but it would be easy to miss if they is a genetic > component in there somewhere. They can ask about it on the survey and > still miss it, but I realized long after the fact that I went thru those > years and never did have more than a very slight case of that, while others > were torn up with it. Something like that would be easy to miss. > > > > Well, OK then, the 23 experiment may have been a general failure, but the > idea was good. > > > > Now suppose we can put together some kind of database which allows > software to scour through and look for signals. And suppose that over > time, accurate DNA genealogical information does accumulate, along with > reliable information on the location of the roots back when people > travelled less than the do now and hundreds of generations went by with not > a lot of DNA coming in or going out. We find better ways to map out all > that, then we try the 23&Me experiment again, but this time with more and > better medical diagnostics, more and better DNA-genealogy and so forth. > > > > BillW, regarding all I want: I am setting up a database to collect groups > of descendants of a common ancestor. Then we can look for medical > conditions within those groups, searching for stuff that might be out of > the normal range. > > > > When you think about it, evolutionary psychology is kinda sorta that same > idea, only that looks at behaviors, rather than medical conditions or > physical traits. I will leave that to the experts, while I do my thing: > looking for stuff like a particular oddball medical condition that seems > more prevalent in a group for instance. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 4 17:16:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 10:16:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: <001b01d60aa0$04da7880$0e8f6980$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d60a97$b79a23c0$26ce6b40$@rainier66.com> <001b01d60aa0$04da7880$0e8f6980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d60aa4$be4efc10$3aecf430$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?I want to see if we can succeed where 23&Me failed. >?The idea behind 23 was get a bunch of people to do DNA tests, group them, have them fill out surveys about their health, see if there are certain conditions that run in certain DNA-clades? spike When the consumer-level DNA tests became available in 2006, 23&Me was originally set up as a medical experiment, so it has features inherently designed into its structure to protect privacy. 23&Me is really good that: all the default setting there go toward privacy. If you want your identity known in 23, you hafta go in and set it that way, but most users never do that. This makes 23&Me inherently limited and difficult to use as a genealogy tool: too privacy-oriented. Ancestry.com was originally designed to be used as a genealogy tool, so if a user is concerned with privacy there, she really need to know what she is doing. The default settings blab there. It is hard to hide on Ancestry, but that outfit was never designed for secrecy, it was designed for sharing. My theory: the idea behind 23&Me was good, but? you can?t effectively map out DNA clades until you have both the DNA and the family histories. DNA alone is too limited: you can?t effectively create family trees with just DNA. However, if you have people who work on family trees and have them share and compare, you figure out where the mistakes are, where is the false documentation (both intentional and otherwise) you eventually solve mysteries and put together accurate DNA-based trees, which is necessary if you are going to succeed at what 23&Me tried to do (and mostly failed in my opinion.) Fun aside: 23&Me recognized that DNA-based genealogy is popular, fun and useful, and Ancestry.com recognized that medical surveys are enlightening, potentially the greatest benefit of genealogy, so both companies attempted after the fact to establish those things. After all this time, the genealogy stuff they added in 23 is cobby and hard to use, and the medical survey stuff in Ancestry.com is worse than cobby, it is frustrating and practically useless. This leads me to this observation: later efforts cannot effectively design into a system that which the original system was designed to defeat. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 4 17:46:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 10:46:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: <000001d60a97$b79a23c0$26ce6b40$@rainier66.com> <001b01d60aa0$04da7880$0e8f6980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007201d60aa8$f96d4640$ec47d2c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] it's your choice You must know things I don't about 23 and me. How do you know the surveys are failures? bill w The reports they offer regarding individual disease have not proven particularly helpful. For instance, my report came back showing the most prevalent risk (8 times higher than the normal range) is type 1 diabetes. I have found not one relative anywhere with that condition. I have a good friend who is a doctor who has actual adult-onset type 1, so I got her interested, she took the test, no indication in the survey she was at increased risk. Over time, that might become a more useful tool, but I fear the whole notion is too vulnerable to actual type 2 diabetics who don?t know the difference. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 19:23:08 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 12:23:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 7:58 AM David McFadzean wrote: > > Keith Henson via extropy-chat > > >> But most of us have ancestors from all over. > > > If you intend "us* to mean humans, I doubt it. The vast majority of > > Chinese are not of mixed origin. Neither are most of the Europeans. > > You may be surprised to learn that the identical ancestors point is only 5000-15000 years ago. Good point but the selection events leading to the present economic divergence and races are not that far back, perhaps 1000 years for the UK and 2-3000 for China. Though it is not much discussed, there must have been considerable psychological selection when farming was developed starting around 12,000 years ago. The difference in psychological traits between farmers and hunter-gathers is considerable. It's really interesting that the Chinese can be sorted by observation into those with ancestors who grew rice and those who grew wheat. Keith > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_ancestors_point > > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 10:59 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> wrote: >> >> > Keith, sensa huma, me lad. >> >> Some of this stuff is *not* funny. >> >> > We know how race is used in our modern world, >> but at some point we must recognize that we moderns are in a rather absurd >> situation where gender is a choice but race is not. >> >> Gender reassignment (Christine Jorgensen) has been a reality since I >> was ten years old. As you point out, it does not change whatever sex >> chromosomes a person has. >> >> > Clearly everyone is a mixture of races. >> >> Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. >> >> "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social >> qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." >> (Wikipedia) >> >> Races came about from the common selection of a group over a long >> enough time for certain patterns of genes to become common. In some >> cases, the groups have existed for 200,000 years or more. >> >> And everyone is *not* a mix of present-day races. >> >> > That one really is ambiguous. A few of us (perhaps a >> tenth of a percent) are genetically ambiguous gender (trisomy or ring >> chromosome 13) but for everyone else, it is either XX or XY. >> >> You left out 47,XXX, 47,XXY, 47,XYY and 48,XXYY plus some other rare cases. >> >> > But most of us have ancestors from all over. >> >> If you intend "us* to mean humans, I doubt it. The vast majority of >> Chinese are not of mixed origin. Neither are most of the Europeans. >> That's is a US pattern and more generally places the Europeans >> (particularly the northwest Europeans) colonized. You might note that >> the Europeans did not do well in the tropics. They were selected for >> other characteristics than parasite resistance. >> >> > If you do just the 60 dollar >> DNA test, you can see that, and if you have a friend interested in this >> sorta thing, you can find out all kindsa cool stuff, including. most of us >> are a mixture of what we are now calling races, which are multiplying daily >> it seems. >> >> 23andMe claims that I am 100% whitebread. Big deal. I clearly lack >> the genes to accumulate wealth. >> >> > So now we are in a society where men can compete in womens' sports, where gender is a choice but one cannot change by choice from one's assigned race? Indeed? Of course we can. Anything represented anywhere in our DNA is among our choices. I know of no rule that specifies we are always stuck >> with the majority race found in our DNA, and know examples where >> people have been assigned against their will to a trace of their DNA >> content. >> >> You cannot change your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. >> Where you came from is significant because in some places (northwest >> Europe, China, Japan) there has been substantial selection for the >> characteristics that made them able to host the industrial revolution >> and (for a while) dominate the world. Read Clark for the evidence >> that our UK ancestors were under intense selection for at least 400 >> years. >> >> Clark points out that the selection pressures were really odd in the >> UK. The "stable agrarian society" selected for a very different set >> of characteristics from places where parasite resistance was more >> important than literacy or impulse control. >> >> I was amazed to find that about 6000 genes (out of 20,000) are thought >> to be involved in RNA or DNA virus resistance. Tropical parasite >> resistance might involve even more genes. >> >> > Are we really now in a place where gender is a choice but race is not? >> >> DNA gender is not a choice, neither are your parents or your genetic >> selection history. >> >> > I recommend that people do one of those DNA tests. >> >> They certainly do lead to some strange places. For example, I am >> related to one Donald Funcannon through Nancy (born 1796), a sister of >> John Henson, my ggg grandfather. Her life was interesting enough to >> have left tracks, including mixed-race children. I should put more >> effort into finding some of the papers and perhaps more of her >> descendants. >> >> I think you mentioned your mixed-race ancestry was 5 generations back. >> I am more Neanderthal (different species!) than you are mixed from >> that event. It would be silly, but I could claim to be Neanderthal to >> the same extent you are (fallaciously?) are claiming to be African. >> >> Keith >> >> PS. If you project into the future far enough, then forget minor >> stuff like changing gender. Changing species will be an option. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 19:35:49 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 12:35:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice Message-ID: SR Ballard wrote: [Keith] .>Only if you completely ignore the definition of the word. >> A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." (Wikipedia) > You literally just ruined your own argument. > A race is ... shared social qualities. > That means literally nothing genetically. You clipped "shared physical." Do you doubt that things like hair color, eye color or skin color are o genetic origin? How about the psychological traits Gregory Clark discusses? > By this definition of race it?s just a type of grouping with no objective genetic basis. Don't forget that the concept of "race" developed long before people had an idea of genes. My point is that races differ at the genetic level because they have been subjected to different selection pressures. We should not be the least surprised about this. Keith From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 20:59:46 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 06:59:46 +1000 Subject: [ExI] The German oddity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Apr 2020 at 23:53, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Germany has over 90,000 people infected with COVID-19, only the US, Italy > and Spain have more, but for some reason the deaths from it is remarkably > low there, only 1.3%; in comparison the death rate in Italy is 12%, in > Spain it's 10%, in the US it's 2.5%. Part of the reason may be Germany's > aggressive use of testing and their excellent health care system, they tend > to hospitalize people who test positive for the virus even if their > symptoms are mild because they have built lots of intensive care beds for > them and they know their condition can change for the worse very rapidly > and their chances of survival are much better if they're in a hospital when > that happens. The death rate in the US will certainly increase when doctors > start rationing ventilators and are forced to decide who should live and > who should die, and that will probably begin in the next week. > It?s a mystery as to why death rates are so different in different countries. Australia had 5548 cases and 30 deaths as of 4th April. There is widespread testing, about 100,000 people, but only sick people are hospitalised. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 21:48:43 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 15:48:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The German oddity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Coronavirus Case Counts Are Meaningless**Unless you know something about testing. And even then, it gets complicated. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/coronavirus-case-counts-are-meaningless/ On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 3:01 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 4 Apr 2020 at 23:53, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Germany has over 90,000 people infected with COVID-19, only the US, Italy >> and Spain have more, but for some reason the deaths from it is remarkably >> low there, only 1.3%; in comparison the death rate in Italy is 12%, in >> Spain it's 10%, in the US it's 2.5%. Part of the reason may be Germany's >> aggressive use of testing and their excellent health care system, they tend >> to hospitalize people who test positive for the virus even if their >> symptoms are mild because they have built lots of intensive care beds for >> them and they know their condition can change for the worse very rapidly >> and their chances of survival are much better if they're in a hospital when >> that happens. The death rate in the US will certainly increase when doctors >> start rationing ventilators and are forced to decide who should live and >> who should die, and that will probably begin in the next week. >> > > It?s a mystery as to why death rates are so different in different > countries. Australia had 5548 cases and 30 deaths as of 4th April. There is > widespread testing, about 100,000 people, but only sick people are > hospitalised. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 22:12:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 18:12:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The German oddity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 5:51 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Coronavirus Case Counts Are Meaningless* > Those numbers are not meaningless, they give you a good lower bound for the true number infected with COVID-19, but the less testing a nation does, such as in the US, the further from the grim reality those numbers will be. Also, unlike determining infection it's rather easy to tell if somebody is alive or dead, so the death doubling time needs little interpretation or spin. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 12:14:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 08:14:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment Message-ID: Things are happening so fast it's difficult to be certain but right now the unemployment rate in the US is probably about 13%, the highest since 1937; 16 million Americans who had a job 2 weeks ago don't have one today, not because they don't want to work but because if they did work they'd not only be risking their lives they'd be risking yours too, the more people infected with COVID-19 the greater the chance you will become infected too. And the number of unemployed will certainly go higher, much higher, in the immediate future. Even under the most optimistic scenario I don't see things getting better for at least 2 months, and even then only very slowly, and 69% of Americans have less than $1000 in savings and tens of millions have no health insurance, but nearly all Americans have guns. So what to do? With great fanfare congress passed legislation giving a one time payment of $1,200 but that won't get people very far, and due to bureaucracy they won't even get their checks for weeks if not months. I think congress is going to have to pass legislation for something like $2000 a month and free health care until this pandemic is over. I know this rubs hard core libertarians the wrong way but what is your alternative if you want civilization to continue? Remember, those tens of millions of people may not have a job or savings or insurance or hope but they do have guns. There is another problem, how can congress pass any legislation if it becomes unsafe for hundreds of elderly men to meet in one room? It seems to me in that case you've got to have online virtual meeting and voting, but one of the very few things that both House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell agree about is they don't like that idea. But neither has offered an alternative solution. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 5 12:49:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 05:49:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Remember, those tens of millions of people may not have a job or savings or insurance or hope but they do have guns?. That should put the second amendment debates to bed for good. Imagine what a fix we would be in if we didn?t have the guns. The bad guys would kill us all. Now they know to go to the much safer the community food security stations, such as the one they set up locally, first as a fallback for students, but they aren?t turning anyone away. Plenty of the neighbors took a chance and are not armed. But the bad guys don?t know which ones they are. I used to do two food drives with the scouts every year. We collected a loooootta lotta stuff, most of which perished of old age in a storage container at one of our local food banks because there were not enough takers. Now perhaps we can freshen that up a bit. >?There is another problem, how can congress pass any legislation if it becomes unsafe for hundreds of elderly men to meet in one room? It seems to me in that case you've got to have online virtual meeting and voting, but one of the very few things that both House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell agree about is they don't like that idea. But neither has offered an alternative solution. John K Clark I can see this going several different ways. It might cause people to stop depending on congress (my fond hope) and focus on the community resources where the meetings continue online and help is available. Zoom works for those. The schools are using it successfully. Churches not so much, because they depend on stirring emotion to get people to drop cash in the offering plate. Without Easter services, plenty of churches may fold. But the city leadership meetings are continuing and it mostly works. The public comment stuff has to be written comments only, so of course the digital divide goes from a gap to a yawning chasm: those without the equipment or inclination are shut out completely. On the other hand, if one can attend city hall meetings from home, that brings in new participants. We have plenty of reason to think the quarantine can transform society such that we take advantage of the technological advances that have been sitting there waiting for us for years. One can get a ChromeBook free on loan from the local high school, equipped with a camera, microphone and even public bandwidth if one doesn?t have internet. I am involved with the local schools. One of our biggest challenges is getting the teachers union to settle down and work with the new system. We also struggle to somehow get the usual idlers among the student body to get their asses in gear. We are mostly succeeding with the teachers, mostly failing with the idlers. The teachers union people are very nervous, even though they are still getting paid, while plenty of the locals are not. It could be that a lot of them are not armed, hard to say. There are food banks, but we don?t yet have gun banks. ?heeeeeeeyyyyyyyy now THERE?s an idea? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 13:20:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 09:20:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> References: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 8:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>>?*Remember, those tens of millions of people may not have a job or >> savings or insurance or hope but they do have guns?. > > > > *> That should put the second amendment debates to bed for good.* > At this point my primary concern is not how to preserve the second amendment or even the constitution, it's how to preserve civilization. And I don't see how you expect to do that in the middle of a global pandemic with tens of millions of armed people with no income no savings no insurance and as a result no health care. If that isn't a recipe for a revolution I don't know what is, and very very few armed revolutions end up as well as the one in 1776 did. And speaking of the Revolutionary War, about 8,000 Americans died in it, and on Sunday April 5 at 13:01 GMT 8,454 Americans have died from COVID-19 since March 1. And the number of deaths is still doubling every 3 days. > > *Without Easter services, plenty of churches may fold.* > I predict that on Easter some churches will still be "packed", but I don't predict it will be "beautiful". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 5 13:53:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 06:53:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <020401d60b51$a1c99ed0$e55cdc70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 6:21 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Unemployment On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 8:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Remember, those tens of millions of people may not have a job or savings or insurance or hope but they do have guns?. > That should put the second amendment debates to bed for good. >?At this point my primary concern is not how to preserve the second amendment or even the constitution, it's how to preserve civilization? John K Clark The second amendment preserves itself (and the other rights.) Note that war has been fought on American soil twice, and the good guys won both times. The difference between then and now is that the good guys have waaaay more advantages than they did either of the other two times. I have seen what looks like an important lesson for civilization: do not depend on help from a distant bureaucracy which has already been at war with itself for well over three years and isn?t anywhere near a truce. Focus on the nearby resources, community efforts, food banks, city and county level organizations which are not battling themselves for power but are using their power and influence effectively. If the distant bureaucracy wants to help, the clumsy distribution of money isn?t the right thing. They should give to suppliers to enable them to give out food directly from the trucks. That would keep the unprepared out of immediate danger. 1200 bucks will go a looooong ways if it goes for canned goods and durable storable dense-calorie food items, and never mind the damn TP. Our grandparents did without it. Fun parting note: voluntary unemployment is sudden zero point zero. Anyone who wants a job or even wants to volunteer, can go down to the local grocer, pack boxes for home delivery. Anyone with a car can take boxes around to neighborhoods. The local grocers have unmet demand for home delivery but not enough people, not neeeearly enough people to box and haul it. You will not get rich off of this (even I haven?t figured out a way to cash in bigtime, not yet I haven?t) but the suddenly unemployed have an option if they really need it or feel charitable. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 14:05:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 09:05:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: <020401d60b51$a1c99ed0$e55cdc70$@rainier66.com> References: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> <020401d60b51$a1c99ed0$e55cdc70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: never mind the damn TP. Our grandparents did without it. spike There is a book I read long ago, Life On Man, which I call bacteriology and the history of shit. In it I learned what 'getting the short end of the stick means'. The Royal person stopped at a bush, did his number, used a stick (no, not just any stick, a royal stick), then handed it to his lackey. bill w On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 8:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, April 5, 2020 6:21 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* John Clark > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Unemployment > > > > On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 8:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *>**>?*Remember, those tens of millions of people may not have a job or > savings or insurance or hope but they do have guns?. > > > > *> **That should put the second amendment debates to bed for good.* > > > > >?At this point my primary concern is not how to preserve the second > amendment or even the constitution, it's how to preserve civilization? John > K Clark > > > > > > The second amendment preserves itself (and the other rights.) > > > > Note that war has been fought on American soil twice, and the good guys > won both times. The difference between then and now is that the good guys > have waaaay more advantages than they did either of the other two times. > > > > I have seen what looks like an important lesson for civilization: do not > depend on help from a distant bureaucracy which has already been at war > with itself for well over three years and isn?t anywhere near a truce. > Focus on the nearby resources, community efforts, food banks, city and > county level organizations which are not battling themselves for power but > are using their power and influence effectively. > > > > If the distant bureaucracy wants to help, the clumsy distribution of money > isn?t the right thing. They should give to suppliers to enable them to > give out food directly from the trucks. That would keep the unprepared out > of immediate danger. 1200 bucks will go a looooong ways if it goes for > canned goods and durable storable dense-calorie food items, and never mind > the damn TP. Our grandparents did without it. > > > > Fun parting note: voluntary unemployment is sudden zero point zero. > Anyone who wants a job or even wants to volunteer, can go down to the local > grocer, pack boxes for home delivery. Anyone with a car can take boxes > around to neighborhoods. The local grocers have unmet demand for home > delivery but not enough people, not neeeearly enough people to box and haul > it. You will not get rich off of this (even I haven?t figured out a way to > cash in bigtime, not yet I haven?t) but the suddenly unemployed have an > option if they really need it or feel charitable. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 14:18:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:18:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: <020401d60b51$a1c99ed0$e55cdc70$@rainier66.com> References: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> <020401d60b51$a1c99ed0$e55cdc70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 9:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The second amendment preserves itself (and the other rights.) Note that > war has been fought on American soil twice, and the good guys won both > times.* I don't think the tens of millions of Americans with no jobs and no money and no way to pay for a ventilator as they watch their wife gasping for breath are the good guys or the bad guys, I think they are the desperate guys, desperate guys with plenty of guns. But I have a somewhat more concrete idea of where to place certain frequenters to Mar-A-Lago along the moral spectrum. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 5 14:45:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 07:45:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> <020401d60b51$a1c99ed0$e55cdc70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <024001d60b58$c969a5a0$5c3cf0e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Unemployment never mind the damn TP. Our grandparents did without it. spike There is a book I read long ago, Life On Man, which I call bacteriology and the history of shit. In it I learned what 'getting the short end of the stick means'. The Royal person stopped at a bush, did his number, used a stick (no, not just any stick, a royal stick), then handed it to his lackey bill w Well there ya go. Do you still have the book? Are you likely to read it again? If not, that will do you for as many as there are pages. I had an idea: super-compressed TP in a pill form. You eat a meal, wait a coupla hours, swallow one or two of those with plenty of water, outer coating dissolves, TP expands, then when the remains of the meal is ready to go out to sea, the expanded wad of TP has caught up to it, done, no problem. The whole notion gives a whole new and literally literal meaning to the term buttload. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 5 14:52:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 07:52:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> <020401d60b51$a1c99ed0$e55cdc70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <024d01d60b59$ca7071d0$5f515570$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Unemployment On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 9:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > The second amendment preserves itself (and the other rights.) Note that war has been fought on American soil twice, and the good guys won both times. >?I don't think the tens of millions of Americans with no jobs and no money and no way to pay for a ventilator as they watch their wife gasping for breath are the good guys or the bad guys, I think they are the desperate guys, desperate guys with plenty of guns. But I have a somewhat more concrete idea of where to place certain frequenters to Mar-A-Lago along the moral spectrum. John K Clark Using a gun to rob a hospital of a ventilator: hmmm, I don?t think that is a high-risk scenario. At some point however, the popularity of the political blame game might decline. I do hope some here will take the ten minutes to view this video. Of all the notions I have seen, this one appears to be the most credible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU &feature=youtu.be It suggests that China is the bad guy, but if you can get past that, he raises some very interesting questions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 16:36:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 12:36:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: <024d01d60b59$ca7071d0$5f515570$@rainier66.com> References: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> <020401d60b51$a1c99ed0$e55cdc70$@rainier66.com> <024d01d60b59$ca7071d0$5f515570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *At some point however, the popularity of the political blame game might > decline.* Would you still be saying that if Obama were still president and had performed in the same way, or Hillary? *> I do hope some here will take the ten minutes to view this video. Of > all the notions I have seen, this one appears to be the most credible: * > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU&feature=youtu.be > That was a very interesting video, thanks for posting the link. I have absolutely no difficulty in believing China is not telling us everything it knows about how this all started, and no American politician can be blamed for that; but they can be blamed for their preparations, or rather lack of preparations, that they made after mid January when it was obvious we could be headed for an existential threat. And they could also be blamed for, just 2 months before COVID-19 first showed up, cutting a 200 million dollar program (ironically called PREDICT) that was to train scientists to find viruses that have the potential to become a pandemic. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 5 16:50:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 09:50:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: <01cc01d60b48$97adf800$c709e800$@rainier66.com> <020401d60b51$a1c99ed0$e55cdc70$@rainier66.com> <024d01d60b59$ca7071d0$5f515570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <028501d60b6a$61f95f20$25ec1d60$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Unemployment On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? At some point however, the popularity of the political blame game might decline. >?Would you still be saying that if Obama were still president and had performed in the same way, or Hillary John K Clark Ja of course John. To bring politics into this situation is most unseemly; it feels far too Alinsky-ish. In his Rules for Radicals, Alinsky urged his followers to never let a crisis go to waste, for that would risk having an opportunity become a tragedy, which would be the real tragedy rather than a real opportunity. Alinsky is the Anti-Rand. That video really makes a lot of sense to me. I hope a lot of people view it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU &feature=youtu.be spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 5 17:12:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:12:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: <000201d60b6d$6fc30180$4f490480$@rainier66.com> After all the insane stunts I have pulled in my day, if I die from touching my face, I?m gonna be really pissed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 17:24:00 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:24:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: <000201d60b6d$6fc30180$4f490480$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d60b6d$6fc30180$4f490480$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Death via facepalm, anyone? On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > After all the insane stunts I have pulled in my day, if I die from > touching my face, I?m gonna be really pissed. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 5 17:44:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 10:44:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: References: <000201d60b6d$6fc30180$4f490480$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003101d60b71$dec7bbd0$9c573370$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day >?Death via facepalm, anyone? Doh! Adrian, thanks for keeping a sensa huma in a tragic time, me lad. It promotes sanity. When we were discussing earlier societal breakdown and chaos, one?s attention is drawn to those places where societal breakdown and chaos already existed before the crisis, such as the south side of Chicago (the baddest part of town) where they can?t afford paper targets so they use real ones. I am told the murder rate is down, but that it cannot necessarily be attributed to the quarantine. Might be random fluctuation or that the surrounding areas are buying up all the ammo. I am surprised more people are not sharing observations about how their community is coping. I am pleasantly surprised by mine. The school is stepping up to the task, the support structure for the poor seems to be working, life mostly goes on. My bride cut up some pillowcases and made reusable surgical masks. We are eating up the failed food in our house, as I can confidently speculate plenty of other local proles are doing likewise. The trucks are still rolling in with supplies and life-sustaining TP. Life goes on. If you have local observations, do share please. Are your neighborhoods staying sane? Are your schools OK? Are the hungry being fed? Are the naked being clothed? (If not, do specify offlist your location please, or send photos.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 18:27:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:27:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: <003101d60b71$dec7bbd0$9c573370$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d60b6d$6fc30180$4f490480$@rainier66.com> <003101d60b71$dec7bbd0$9c573370$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am happy to report that the naked are not being clothed. Failed food? Is that akin to used food? As in a head full of used food? Aren't the chefs in SF doing something newsworthy? Seems I saw something in the NYT about them the other day. Since the gov's order, streets are bare - a few people in masks, flaunting the laws against wearing masks. Robbers welcome in stores..Gloves rare. Tp isle bare. Cooking out of the freezer mainly - black beans and rice today w/ Italian sausage (no andouille available). bill w On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 12:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] quote of the day > > > > >?Death via facepalm, anyone? > > > > Doh! > > > > Adrian, thanks for keeping a sensa huma in a tragic time, me lad. It > promotes sanity. > > > > When we were discussing earlier societal breakdown and chaos, one?s > attention is drawn to those places where societal breakdown and chaos > already existed before the crisis, such as the south side of Chicago (the > baddest part of town) where they can?t afford paper targets so they use > real ones. I am told the murder rate is down, but that it cannot > necessarily be attributed to the quarantine. Might be random fluctuation > or that the surrounding areas are buying up all the ammo. > > > > I am surprised more people are not sharing observations about how their > community is coping. I am pleasantly surprised by mine. The school is > stepping up to the task, the support structure for the poor seems to be > working, life mostly goes on. My bride cut up some pillowcases and made > reusable surgical masks. We are eating up the failed food in our house, as > I can confidently speculate plenty of other local proles are doing > likewise. The trucks are still rolling in with supplies and > life-sustaining TP. Life goes on. > > > > If you have local observations, do share please. Are your neighborhoods > staying sane? Are your schools OK? Are the hungry being fed? Are the > naked being clothed? (If not, do specify offlist your location please, or > send photos.) > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 18:54:19 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 11:54:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 5:17 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It seems to me in that case you've got to have online virtual meeting and > voting, but one of the very few things that both House Speaker Nancy Pelosi > and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell agree about is they don't like > that idea. But neither has offered an alternative solution. > Nor are they likely to. I've read the report; while there are some cybersecurity challenges, those can be overcome to secure the votes of a few hundred people which the US government really does depend on. The other excuses they offer are BS. The real problem is that, without everyone being in person and thus subject to well-practiced in-person methods of influencing them, members would more likely vote the interests of their states or districts, rather than the interests of the political parties. This is of course completely unacceptable to Congressional leadership. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 5 18:54:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 11:54:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: References: <000201d60b6d$6fc30180$4f490480$@rainier66.com> <003101d60b71$dec7bbd0$9c573370$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006a01d60b7b$b2b5cc30$18216490$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day >?I am happy to report that the naked are not being clothed? What, no photos? We want EVIDENCE! Cool, that?s the spirit, lad. >?Failed food? Is that akin to used food? No, it is stuff you bought a long time ago when you went to the grocery store hungry, looked good at the time, you came home, gobbled the fried chicken, then the exotic stuff doesn?t look so good and was never devoured, but was pushed to the back of the cabinet behind the cream of celery and forgotten. Working with the food bank and from experimentation with my own failed food, I already know the sell-by date on canned food is irrelevant. That stuff can be years old and be indistinguishable from fresh. I am not kidding: see if you can find a 5 yr old can or something back there, try it. I found some canned peaches that were over 10 yrs old. Nothing wrong with them. >?Aren't the chefs in SF doing something newsworthy? Seems I saw something in the NYT about them the other day? I don?t know BillW. I didn?t employ them before and haven?t taken it up since. I don?t think the people working behind the counter at Taco Bell, Burger King and KFC qualify as chefs, or if so, I know of nothing newsworthy. They are still handing their product out the window as before. >?Since the gov's order, streets are bare - a few people in masks, flaunting the laws against wearing masks. Robbers welcome in stores..Gloves rare. Tp isle bare. Cooking out of the freezer mainly - black beans and rice today w/ Italian sausage (no andouille available). bill w Streets are mostly bare here too, as many proles think it is illegal go outdoors. It isn?t, but plenty of the locals think it is. So? I am lonely out there, which is perfectly OK with me. I am determined to devour every morsel of food in my home before I return to the merchants. So far so good. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 19:45:48 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:45:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: <006a01d60b7b$b2b5cc30$18216490$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d60b6d$6fc30180$4f490480$@rainier66.com> <003101d60b71$dec7bbd0$9c573370$@rainier66.com> <006a01d60b7b$b2b5cc30$18216490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Naw, you are not going to eat the cream of celery, are you? I am certainly not going to eat a bagful of dried shiitake mushrooms or garbanzo beans. I am going out tomorrow for phys therapy for my back and will stop at Walmart and buy a mouse (logitech trackball if you are interested). The reason I will keep going to the stores is Breyer's vanilla ice cream. I cannot find enough to hoard a bunch of cartons so I must go back. Life is not worth living without it and Nutty Bars mixed in with it. Nutella is great too - tried to make it myself before I read the label - you cannot make it from milk chocolate and roasted hazelnuts - added flavors (can cover a lot of things, eh?) My understanding is that the mask is for not infecting other people, not protecting oneself, unless someone coughs in my face, which if it happens will insure that he does not die of the virus. And yeah, my yard man thought that there was a curfew. Nope, not even in NYC. Three cheers for Amazon! Still delivering on time - Prime member. bill w On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 2:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] quote of the day > > > > >?I am happy to report that the naked are not being clothed? > > > > What, no photos? We want EVIDENCE! > > > > Cool, that?s the spirit, lad. > > > > >?Failed food? Is that akin to used food? > > > > No, it is stuff you bought a long time ago when you went to the grocery > store hungry, looked good at the time, you came home, gobbled the fried > chicken, then the exotic stuff doesn?t look so good and was never > devoured, but was pushed to the back of the cabinet behind the cream of > celery and forgotten. > > > > Working with the food bank and from experimentation with my own failed > food, I already know the sell-by date on canned food is irrelevant. That > stuff can be years old and be indistinguishable from fresh. I am not > kidding: see if you can find a 5 yr old can or something back there, try > it. I found some canned peaches that were over 10 yrs old. Nothing wrong > with them. > > > > > > >?Aren't the chefs in SF doing something newsworthy? Seems I saw > something in the NYT about them the other day? > > > > I don?t know BillW. I didn?t employ them before and haven?t taken it up > since. I don?t think the people working behind the counter at Taco Bell, > Burger King and KFC qualify as chefs, or if so, I know of nothing > newsworthy. They are still handing their product out the window as before. > > > > > > >?Since the gov's order, streets are bare - a few people in masks, > flaunting the laws against wearing masks. Robbers welcome in > stores..Gloves rare. Tp isle bare. Cooking out of the freezer mainly - > black beans and rice today w/ Italian sausage (no andouille available). > bill w > > > > Streets are mostly bare here too, as many proles think it is illegal go > outdoors. It isn?t, but plenty of the locals think it is. So? I am lonely > out there, which is perfectly OK with me. I am determined to devour every > morsel of food in my home before I return to the merchants. So far so good. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 19:57:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:57:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point. Do you and does anyone have any idea how to get rid of the gridlock and hostility in D.C.? Our so-called democracy is not working as such. Members of Congress are expected to toe the party line and if they don't their state doesn't get much help re anything. Leaders have all the power (though I did read where that late and not lamented Senator from South Carolina, Strom Thurmond, held up legislation just by himself). bill w On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 1:56 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 5:17 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It seems to me in that case you've got to have online virtual meeting and >> voting, but one of the very few things that both House Speaker Nancy Pelosi >> and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell agree about is they don't like >> that idea. But neither has offered an alternative solution. >> > > Nor are they likely to. I've read the report; while there are some > cybersecurity challenges, those can be overcome to secure the votes of a > few hundred people which the US government really does depend on. The > other excuses they offer are BS. > > The real problem is that, without everyone being in person and thus > subject to well-practiced in-person methods of influencing them, members > would more likely vote the interests of their states or districts, rather > than the interests of the political parties. This is of course completely > unacceptable to Congressional leadership. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 20:06:37 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:06:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: <028501d60b6a$61f95f20$25ec1d60$@rainier66.com> References: <028501d60b6a$61f95f20$25ec1d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0F51E328-AEAE-43A0-BDB2-5101AA482231@gmail.com> Um, even if Alinsky were the first to say that ? never let a crisis go to waste ? it?s definitely not a new sentiment. (Similarly, Machiavelli didn?t invent the Machiavellian approach; he merely wrote what rulers had been practicing long before him.) And it?s not even limited to the supposed Left. Jay Edgar Hoover used fear of communists to crack down on the Civil Rights movement. Bush the Younger?s Administration used the 2001 attacks as a pretext for war in Iraq. Etc. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Apr 5, 2020, at 9:53 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Unemployment > > On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > >>? At some point however, the popularity of the political blame game might decline. > > >?Would you still be saying that if Obama were still president and had performed in the same way, or Hillary John K Clark > > Ja of course John. To bring politics into this situation is most unseemly; it feels far too Alinsky-ish. In his Rules for Radicals, Alinsky urged his followers to never let a crisis go to waste, for that would risk having an opportunity become a tragedy, which would be the real tragedy rather than a real opportunity. Alinsky is the Anti-Rand. > > That video really makes a lot of sense to me. I hope a lot of people view it. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU&feature=youtu.be > spike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 5 20:44:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:44:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010b01d60b8b$09d78fd0$1d86af70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Unemployment Do you and does anyone have any idea how to get rid of the gridlock and hostility in D.C.? bill w Why would we want to? We elect people who run on deep tax cuts, the amount of money available to the politicians goes down, then it doesn?t much matter which yahoos are running the show. That also frees up money for the state and local level governments, which are going to be called upon very soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 22:18:42 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 17:18:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] transfer of guilt Message-ID: Most of my life I have known about the American Japanese being rounded up and put in camps during WWII I have always thought that it was such a terrible thing. Now I realize that the result, however unintended, was to protect them. Probably few if any spies. Now? I am glad they did it. Have you read the news stories of Chinese people being targeted in the U.S.? Spat at? It just boggles my poor mind that someone could blame an American Chinese for the virus. Sometimes I think I just don't understand people at all. I wish I knew the IQs of the people that do these things. Then I would have some reason, however poor. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Apr 5 20:30:22 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2020 13:30:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cruise ship mortality rate was Re: The German oddity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200405133022.Horde.8LpYHboc7YcYsWEivFBRn8R@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > On Sat, 4 Apr 2020 at 23:53, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Germany has over 90,000 people infected with COVID-19, only the US, Italy >> and Spain have more, but for some reason the deaths from it is remarkably >> low there, only 1.3%; in comparison the death rate in Italy is 12%, in >> Spain it's 10%, in the US it's 2.5%. Part of the reason may be Germany's >> aggressive use of testing and their excellent health care system, they tend >> to hospitalize people who test positive for the virus even if their >> symptoms are mild because they have built lots of intensive care beds for >> them and they know their condition can change for the worse very rapidly >> and their chances of survival are much better if they're in a hospital when >> that happens. The death rate in the US will certainly increase when doctors >> start rationing ventilators and are forced to decide who should live and >> who should die, and that will probably begin in the next week. The US can prevent the death rate from rising by testing a lot more people so that asymptomatic carriers can be found and included in the calculations. Also, those people can be further isolated, to help prevent further spread. Absolute death can minimized with adequate ventilators. Relative death can be minimized with adequate testing. > It?s a mystery as to why death rates are so different in different > countries. Australia had 5548 cases and 30 deaths as of 4th April. There is > widespread testing, about 100,000 people, but only sick people are > hospitalised. It's not a mystery. It simply means that Australia is doing an excellent job of keeping tabs on the virus. According to studies of Diamond Princess and other cruise ships, the virus' mortality rate under controlled conditions where you know exactly how many people have it is 0.5% https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00885-w https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-outbreak-diamond-princess-cruise-ship-death-rate So kudos on Australia for keeping it real. Stuart LaForge From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 05:58:40 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 00:58:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] transfer of guilt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If they could just, not steal all their land that would have been cool though. The reason for these attacks is very obvious, they are being encouraged to via the media they watch. SR Ballard > On Apr 5, 2020, at 5:18 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Most of my life I have known about the American Japanese being rounded up and put in camps during WWII I have always thought that it was such a terrible thing. Now I realize that the result, however unintended, was to protect them. Probably few if any spies. > > Now? I am glad they did it. Have you read the news stories of Chinese people being targeted in the U.S.? Spat at? > > It just boggles my poor mind that someone could blame an American Chinese for the virus. > > Sometimes I think I just don't understand people at all. I wish I knew the IQs of the people that do these things. Then I would have some reason, however poor. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Mon Apr 6 09:28:13 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 04:28:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 spike jones wrote: > I am surprised more people are not sharing observations > about how their community is coping. The very progressive city of Madison, WI is doing a good job of staying home and social distancing. However, we have this very ugly story to fill our time: https://wkow.com/2020/04/03/teenager-arrested-in-connection-to-homicides-of-madison-doctor-husband/ https://www.channel3000.com/uwpd-makes-second-arrest-in-double-homicide-investigation/ Digging into social media makes it even uglier: https://heavy.com/news/2020/04/khari-sanford/ https://davidblaska.com/2020/04/03/car-thief-jailed-in-deaths-of-two-in-madison/ https://davidblaska.com/2020/04/04/the-other-shoe-just-dropped/ From giulio at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 09:36:29 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:36:29 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Einstein, Michael Jackson & Howard Bloom (& Me) Message-ID: Einstein, Michael Jackson & Howard Bloom (& Me) Howard Bloom?s new book ?Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: A Search for Soul in the Power Pits of Rock and Roll? will be released on April 15... https://turingchurch.net/einstein-michael-jackson-howard-bloom-me-48043a416eab From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 10:39:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 06:39:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: <010b01d60b8b$09d78fd0$1d86af70$@rainier66.com> References: <010b01d60b8b$09d78fd0$1d86af70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Do you and does anyone have any idea how to get rid of the gridlock >> and hostility in D.C.? bill w > > > > *> Why would we want to? * > To slow down the death doubling time and perhaps save civilization. > *>it doesn?t much matter which yahoos are running the show. * > I've been hearing that line all my life and I have concluded it just doesn't fit the facts, and so I must reject your theory because my only loyalty is to the scientific method. *> That also frees up money for the state and local level governments,* > If there is one thing that requires a national response it's an epidemic because the virus does not respect state borders, but we don't have coordinated leadership or any sort of strategy in dealing with this so we get 50 stated bidding against themselves and driving up the price of medical supplies and absurd pictures like this one because one Florida county has closed the beaches while a neighboring county has not: https://cdn2.creativecirclemedia.com/pontevedra/original/20200401-140521-Beach%20closed%20county%20line%20040220.jpg Even at this late date 8 governors have STILL not issued stay at home orders, all 8 are Republicans of course because Republicans have pretty much cornered the market on concentrated stupidity. The President has not issued a national stay at home polacy either, and if you knew nothing else about him that alone would be enough information to correctly guess his political party. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:15:08 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:15:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] transfer of guilt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 6:21 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Sometimes I think I just don't understand people at all. I feel exactly the same way every time I watch one of Trump's daily COVID-19 news conferences/campaign rallies where he "has higher tv ratings than the finale of The Bachelor" and is "number one on Facebook" and he won't take a Governor's phone call pleading for help "unless he's nice to me". I just don't understand how anyone can watch that spectacle and not become enraged. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:37:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:37:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A glimmer of light? Message-ID: As of April 6 at 12:27 GMT 9,620 Americans have died of COVID-19, but the doubling time for the number of deaths in the US is no longer every 3 days, it is now every 4 days. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 13:35:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:35:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quora Message-ID: Here is a question I got on Quora and have not answered it yet: Are my neighbors obligated to inform me and other neighbors of their Covid-19 test results? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 6 13:54:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 06:54:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] transfer of guilt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ab01d60c1a$d96ab3a0$8c401ae0$@rainier66.com> Most of my life I have known about the American Japanese being rounded up and put in camps during WWII bill w From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] transfer of guilt If they could just, not steal all their land that would have been cool though. The reason for these attacks is very obvious, they are being encouraged to via the media they watch. SR Ballard They didn?t steal all their land. In some areas such as San Jose, the authorities and neighbors carefully protected the Japantown area, which is that neighborhood adjacent to and NNW of San Jose State U. There were Chinese gangs around there. The local constabulary let the Chinese gangs know that if they went in there while the residents were away, they would assume the interlopers were Japanese and would send them to one of the internment camps. When the residents returned, they expected their homes would be wrecked and ransacked. They returned and were amazed to find things exactly as they left them. In some cases, a volunteers had come in and tidied up the lawns and gardens. Certainly things didn?t go as well for all Japanese, but I did have an interesting experience. I am a big fan of Japanese culture and for a while toyed with Buddhism about 30 yrs ago. I had several colleagues who were Buddhist. The temple had an annual Obon festival, so I volunteered to help. They were going to try an experiment that year: have the men making the Udon, so I volunteered to do that. Tells ya what, that was a grand adventure and I wish to write about that under a separate title for it is a story worth telling, but drifts off the topic. My colleague?s family was 10 sons, 2 daughters. He was the youngest, age 7 when they were sent to the camp. When they returned, they still owned the rice field which was just north of SR 237 in Alviso, but they owed four years of taxes on it, so they sold the land, which is the site north and east of the Los Esteros power plant where the Microsloth facility is now planned. They let that go, but the family prospered in the San Jose State U area. The reason I mentioned the Obon Festival is that former mayor Norm Mineta showed up, who was one of those from that neighborhood. My colleague, Mineta and several others started sharing their experiences while in the camp, and it changed my whole outlook. I had imagined it like a Nazi concentration camp, but it wasn?t that at all, not even close. I was astonished to hear these men describe what sounded to me like they had the time of their lives there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 6 14:20:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 07:20:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: <010b01d60b8b$09d78fd0$1d86af70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ca01d60c1e$8facb160$af061420$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 3:39 AM >?If there is one thing that requires a national response it's an epidemic because the virus does not respect state borders? Indeed? You mean every government in the world didn?t do it wrong? I was told this was the fault of government. >?but we don't have coordinated leadership or any sort of strategy? The US Constitution intentionally distributes power, and it maintains power at the state and local level. The Federal government does what it can do. But it is limited. They can close national borders. >?Even at this late date 8 governors have STILL not issued stay at home orders, all 8 are Republicans? Campaign opportunity! >? of course because Republicans? Campaign opportunity! >? The President Campaign opportunity! >? has not issued a national stay at home policy? To issue such an order requires POTUS to declare martial law. There are some disadvantages to doing that. >? correctly guess his political party. John K Clark John you should run for office. You are retired now, and the virus is handing you the opportunity. Never let a crisis go to waste. Failing to make an opportunity of a tragedy is a tragedy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 6 14:24:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 07:24:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] transfer of guilt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d701d60c1f$04d425e0$0e7c71a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? every time I watch one of Trump's Campaign opportunity! >? where he "has higher tv ratings than? Campaign opportunity! >? and he won't? Campaign opportunity! >? I just don't understand how anyone can watch that spectacle and not become enraged. John K Clark Apparently they do get enraged. It is working on you. One solution is to not watch that spectacle. Another solution is to run for political office, but you need a bigger audience than the paltry few dozen we have here. There aren?t enough voters here to make a hill of beans difference, and even then, most of us here live in free states, so our vote means nothing at all. Run John Run! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 6 14:27:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 07:27:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00de01d60c1f$72e925d0$58bb7170$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 6:35 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] quora Here is a question I got on Quora and have not answered it yet: Are my neighbors obligated to inform me and other neighbors of their Covid-19 test results? bill w My neighbor did. He posts his condition on FaceBook regularly. This is day 19. His comment was that he is not yet well but feeling a lot better than he did 8 days ago. He still looks like hell. Obliged to inform: ethically yes, legally no. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 15:29:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:29:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:20 AM wrote: > >>?If there is one thing that requires a national response it's an > epidemic because the virus does not respect state borders? > > > > *> Indeed? * > Yes indeed. > *You mean every government in the world didn?t do it wrong?* > I mean some governments handled this crisis in ways that were less wrong than others, South Korea for example. And I mean, with the possible exception of Belarus, no nation has managed this crisis in a way that was more wrong than the USA. >>?we don't have coordinated leadership or any sort of strategy? > > > > *>The US Constitution intentionally distributes power, and* > And that's why on December 7 1941 Franklin Roosevelt, a wartime president just like Donald (Captain Bonespurs) Trump, said "*the only thing we have to fear is bad radio ratings" and told North Dakota *"*Good luck in building battleships, as you go into harm's way I'll be standing right next to you,... in spirit*". *> it maintains power at the state and local level. The Federal government > does what it can do. * > The Federal government could have placed the nation on a wartime footing by mid January and started building ventilators and virus test kits that actually worked on a massive scale, but nothing even close to this actually happened, and so the Democratic hoax virus spread uncontrollably. If Trump is a wartime president as he claims then he had lost the war by February 1. >>? it has not issued a national stay at home policy? > > > > *> To issue such an order requires POTUS to declare martial law. There > are some disadvantages to doing that.* > No state has declared martial law but 42 have nevertheless issued stay at home orders, and the Federal government wouldn't need martial law to do the same. > *> John you should run for office. You are retired now, and the virus is > handing you the opportunity. * > That would never work in a million years. I have a tendency to say what I think and a politician can have no greater flaw. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 6 15:59:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:59:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001c01d60c2c$609a5630$21cf0290$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?That would never work in a million years. I have a tendency to say what I think and a politician can have no greater flaw? John K Clark Many voters see that as a virtue. Go for it! Don?t bother with it here please, because there are only a few voters and many here are in free states. Many on this list consider it politicking to argue that politics is the answer to a medical crisis. Many here consider it unseemly to engage in politicking on this site. It?s not what we are about. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 16:58:49 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:58:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quora In-Reply-To: <00de01d60c1f$72e925d0$58bb7170$@rainier66.com> References: <00de01d60c1f$72e925d0$58bb7170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Legally they are not obligated, and the hospital cannot inform you (of their status) either. HIPAA SR Ballard > On Apr 6, 2020, at 9:27 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 6:35 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: William Flynn Wallace > Subject: [ExI] quora > > Here is a question I got on Quora and have not answered it yet: > > Are my neighbors obligated to inform me and other neighbors of their Covid-19 test results? > > bill w > > > My neighbor did. He posts his condition on FaceBook regularly. This is day 19. His comment was that he is not yet well but feeling a lot better than he did 8 days ago. He still looks like hell. > > Obliged to inform: ethically yes, legally no. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 17:01:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 13:01:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] An interesting talk Message-ID: Dr. Anthony Fauci gave a talk in January 2017 just a few days before the inauguration, one interesting quote in it is "*there is no question that there will be a challenge to the incoming administration in the area of infectious diseases*". Pandemic Preparedness in the Next Administration: Keynote Address by Anthony S. Fauci John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 6 17:31:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 10:31:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] An interesting talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002401d60c39$282c4f30$7884ed90$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] An interesting talk Dr. Anthony Fauci gave a talk in January 2017 ? John K Clark Pandemic Preparedness in the Next Administration: Keynote Address by Anthony S. Fauci Bioterrorism has been on the minds of a lot of us for a long time. I don?t believe that?s what this was, but a natural event might have helped prepare us for bioterrorism in the future. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 20:19:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 15:19:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] stay home Message-ID: What's the difference between urging people to stay home, which several of the Repub governors who have not issued an order have done, and issuing an order to do so? There is no way in Heaven or Hell to enforce such an order. The difference is that if the governor tells them to stay home, more people will take the situation seriously than if they are just urged to do so. This difference will cost lives. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 6 20:49:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 13:49:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] stay home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d301d60c54$d7e0abe0$87a203a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] stay home What's the difference between urging people to stay home, which several of the Repub governors who have not issued an order have done, and issuing an order to do so? There is no way in Heaven or Hell to enforce such an order. The difference is that if the governor tells them to stay home, more people will take the situation seriously than if they are just urged to do so. This difference will cost lives. bill w There are strict limits to what a state government has the authority to do. If the constables pull someone over for being out for a joy ride, they need to find some legal violation on which to write a ticket. If that is endangering public safety, it likely won?t hold up in court if they were not at a gathering. One cannot spread a virus while alone in one?s car. I find it possibly more alarming than the virus that so many Americans assume the government has the authority to order them to do anything. The federal government has very little legal authority for influencing the behavior of the citizens (by careful design.) Executive orders do not apply to me, since I am not part of the presidential cabinet. Orders to move anywhere do not apply to me since I am not in the military (only the well-regulated militia.) The states may pass laws contradictory to federal law (California drug and immigration law for instance.) The states may strongly recommend that people stay home, but when it comes to enforcement, it isn?t clear how that would be done. I go out walking every day. None of the local constables has stopped for a chat. They wave and go on their way, as do I. If I am walking, I cannot be required to produce ID or provide an address. Governments advise, but generally cannot command the citizens. Fortunately most people are reasonable. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 20:55:54 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 15:55:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] stay home In-Reply-To: <00d301d60c54$d7e0abe0$87a203a0$@rainier66.com> References: <00d301d60c54$d7e0abe0$87a203a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: All of what you said is true, I suppose, but it misses the point. The point is what people believe. The higher up the person who tells them to do something the more they will believe it. Some will believe that they will get into trouble if they don't follow the order even though as I said they could not enforce it. All a person would have to do is say they are on their way to the grocery store. (or in MS any store). As it is, some will go out and catch the virus when they would have stayed home per the governor's order. bill w On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] stay home > > > > What's the difference between urging people to stay home, which several of > the Repub governors who have not issued an order have done, and issuing an > order to do so? > > > > There is no way in Heaven or Hell to enforce such an order. > > > > The difference is that if the governor tells them to stay home, more > people will take the situation seriously than if they are just urged to do > so. > > > > This difference will cost lives. > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > There are strict limits to what a state government has the authority to > do. If the constables pull someone over for being out for a joy ride, they > need to find some legal violation on which to write a ticket. If that is > endangering public safety, it likely won?t hold up in court if they were > not at a gathering. One cannot spread a virus while alone in one?s car. > > > > I find it possibly more alarming than the virus that so many Americans > assume the government has the authority to order them to do anything. The > federal government has very little legal authority for influencing the > behavior of the citizens (by careful design.) Executive orders do not > apply to me, since I am not part of the presidential cabinet. Orders to > move anywhere do not apply to me since I am not in the military (only the > well-regulated militia.) > > > > The states may pass laws contradictory to federal law (California drug and > immigration law for instance.) The states may strongly recommend that > people stay home, but when it comes to enforcement, it isn?t clear how that > would be done. > > > > I go out walking every day. None of the local constables has stopped for > a chat. They wave and go on their way, as do I. If I am walking, I cannot > be required to produce ID or provide an address. Governments advise, but > generally cannot command the citizens. > > > > Fortunately most people are reasonable. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 6 21:13:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 14:13:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] stay home In-Reply-To: References: <00d301d60c54$d7e0abe0$87a203a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00fa01d60c58$2f1c5690$8d5503b0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] stay home All of what you said is true, I suppose, but it misses the point. The point is what people believe. The higher up the person who tells them to do something the more they will believe it. Some will believe that they will get into trouble if they don't follow the order even though as I said they could not enforce it. All a person would have to do is say they are on their way to the grocery store. (or in MS any store). As it is, some will go out and catch the virus when they would have stayed home per the governor's order. bill w Sure BillW, but I do recommend an alternative: tell the truth and remind the constable of her legal obligations. She is not free to enforce a law that does not exist. If you wish, you can always tell the constable you were heading toward a gun shop, for there is one of those in any direction you choose, and some are specialty shops. We must be very careful about assuming over powers to the state which it does not have. Trading away freedom for security will result in less of both. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darren.greer3 at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 22:19:15 2020 From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 18:19:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] stay home In-Reply-To: <00fa01d60c58$2f1c5690$8d5503b0$@rainier66.com> References: <00d301d60c54$d7e0abe0$87a203a0$@rainier66.com> <00fa01d60c58$2f1c5690$8d5503b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat *Subject:* Re: [ExI] stay home The higher up the person who tells them to do something the more they will believe it. Some will believe that they will get into trouble if they don't follow the order even though as I said they could not enforce it. In the Canadian city where I live there is a provincial order not to be out for any reason than a job in an essential industry or going to the grocery store. or pharmacy. You can be fined for being in a park, or being in the immediate vicinity of anyone else for extended periods.. There is a high degree of compliance, but some are now now saying that the provincial orders are an overreaction and COVID-19 is not as infectious or as deadly as other diseases and no worse than the seasonal flu. On the occasions I've run across this particular attitude I've discovered that these ideas are cemented in, and no amount of proffered information will dislodge them. I think the only thing keeping people like this, and there are more of them in my experience every day, are the provincial orders. I agree with Spike--and Benjamin Franklin--when he (Franklin) wrote that bit about those sacrificing liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both. But Franklin had never lived in a time when the human race was trying to real-time control a pandemic through technology and social engineering. To balance that statement out, here is an interesting article that came out here in in Canada yesterday about "force drift" and the danger to civil liberties in Canada during the crisis. https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/the-charter-still-applies-canadians-urged-to-monitor-civil-liberties-during-pandemic-1.4882742 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 00:44:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 19:44:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] stupid astrophysics trick Message-ID: >From This Is True; ?This is not my expertise,? admitted Daniel Reardon, 27, a astrophysics research fellow at Swinburne University in Melbourne, Vic., Australia. ?It?s just something I was working on in my spare time.? His idea was to come up with a way to actively remind people not to touch their faces, which can lead to COVID-19 infections. To do that, he designed a necklace with circuitry coupled with bracelets with strong neodymium magnets, and when the necklace detects the wrist-worn magnets, an alarm sounds. ?But I had problems when I stupidly attached these magnets? to his nose, and they, ?of course were attracted to each other across my nose and pinched together.? Further experiments resulted in several inside his nose ? and he couldn?t get them out. He ended up in the emergency room. ?I had two doctors working on me,? he said: ?one doctor in each nostril.? They got the magnets out and sent Dr. Reardon on his way. Same source: two newborns in India; Corona and Covid bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Tue Apr 7 03:32:07 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 20:32:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Ant Game Message-ID: <20200406203207.Horde.8vNccuFw6KCcCXfKPERvmGz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Ants are such awesomely successful creatures. They rival us for dominance of the world. Scientists estimate that 20% of all land-animal biomass is contained in ants. Army ants are particularly noted as being one of the top predators in the South and Central American tropics where they devour anything that cannot get out of their way. Here is a cool video of army ant attacking a nest of their larger but nowhere near as sophisticated cousins the wasps. Notice the wild bridge they built out of their own bodies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_mNC81fnyY They build such bridges to cross obstacles like rivers that are many meters across. The game is try to guess *why* these army ants built that particular bridge. Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 12:13:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:13:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A puzzle Message-ID: Hospitals in the US and around the world are not as overwhelmed as they might have been because emergency rooms report a 50% reduction in non-COVID19 cases such as heart attacks, strokes, and even appendicitis. It's reasonable to assume part of the reason for this is sick people are reluctant to go to a hospital and possibly get infected, but that may not be the entire answer. People are probably exercising less now, could they have been doing too much before? Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darren.greer3 at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 12:31:29 2020 From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A puzzle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue., Apr. 7, 2020, 8:15 a.m. John Clark via extropy-chat, < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: "It's reasonable to assume part of the reason for this is sick people are reluctant to go to a hospital and possibly get infected, but that may not be the entire answer. People are probably exercising less now, could they have been doing too much before?" It's possible that people may minimize many types of symptoms, and not just those of respiratory illness, to avoid uncomfortable considerations of physical health and interaction with the health care system. I wonder, on the other end of the spectrum, how many asymptomatic hypochondriacs are showing up at testing centers and emergency departments? I've had a half dozen 20 minute phantom sore throats in the last month. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Apr 7 12:45:26 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:45:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A puzzle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31075dec769faf293fa31235e69e63dc.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > It's possible that people may minimize many types of symptoms, and not > just > those of respiratory illness, to avoid uncomfortable considerations of > physical health and interaction with the health care system. I wonder, on > the other end of the spectrum, how many asymptomatic hypochondriacs are > showing up at testing centers and emergency departments? I've had a half > dozen 20 minute phantom sore throats in the last month. > You've had sore throats, I've had headaches. I am convinced mine were tension headaches, as they came on during the day as I read the news. Could feel my neck and shoulders getting tense and hunched. Went away completely during the night. So I quit reading the news (and the frantic negative posts) and that took care of the problem. Here it is coming into major allergy season. Whoopee! Regards, MB From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 7 13:38:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 06:38:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Ant Game In-Reply-To: <20200406203207.Horde.8vNccuFw6KCcCXfKPERvmGz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200406203207.Horde.8vNccuFw6KCcCXfKPERvmGz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <005901d60ce1$c93e3340$5bba99c0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 8:32 PM To: ExI Chat Cc: Stuart LaForge Subject: [ExI] The Ant Game Ants are such awesomely successful creatures. They rival us for dominance of the world. Scientists estimate that 20% of all land-animal biomass is contained in ants. Army ants are particularly noted as being one of the top predators in the South and Central American tropics where they devour anything that cannot get out of their way. Here is a cool video of army ant attacking a nest of their larger but nowhere near as sophisticated cousins the wasps. Notice the wild bridge they built out of their own bodies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_mNC81fnyY They build such bridges to cross obstacles like rivers that are many meters across. The game is try to guess *why* these army ants built that particular bridge. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Stuart, if one is of a mind to do this kind of thing, you can arrange for an ant bridge like this using a piece of string or a strip of duct tape. It is a low-cost way of getting rid of a wasp nest. If the building is a storage shed rather than a casa, keeping ants makes sense: they control your termites. This is not to detract from the brilliance of the ants. I love ants (to watch I mean, I don't eat them.) I have seen cool ant-bridges in my misspent youth in Florida, not made with any technical assistance. Nothing like this however. But... that does give me an idea. Create a hanging ant bridge like this one, use it as a prize for an aardvark race. Then we sell them the aardvarks. And the specialty bridge-twine made of crushed ant-bodies, so it is all aardvark-edible, kind of like those treats your dog loves so well, only for aardvarks. spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 7 13:54:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 06:54:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A puzzle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006701d60ce4$1f39d950$5dad8bf0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 5:13 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: [ExI] A puzzle Hospitals in the US and around the world are not as overwhelmed as they might have been because emergency rooms report a 50% reduction in non-COVID19 cases such as heart attacks, strokes, and even appendicitis. It's reasonable to assume part of the reason for this is sick people are reluctant to go to a hospital and possibly get infected, but that may not be the entire answer. People are probably exercising less now, could they have been doing too much before? Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone? John K Clark Alternative explanation: they are home so they are exercising more? The strokes and appendicitis are hard to explain, being two conditions that would send one to the shop regardless of the risk of C-19. Ya just gotta go in there at those times. I am exercising a hell of a lot more now than before. I am particularly interested in what the quarantine will do to the shooting season in those places where guns are illegal. I don?t know when the season is for that, but they seem to be constantly holding the championships in the south side of Chicago. If those go down, we have learned a good alternative means of controlling crime. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 14:13:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 09:13:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] good source Message-ID: There is a long article in the People's Pharmacy about the CDC. This site is run by a pharmacist and a doctorate in physiology and I have gotten their feed for many years. Independent, critical, comments on supplements and even folk remedies (soap under the sheets for muscle cramps - it works!) https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/ bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 7 19:54:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 12:54:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs Message-ID: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> Quote of the day: I used to spin that TP roll like I was on Wheel of Fortune. Now I turn it like I am cracking a safe. We are a few weeks into the quarantine and generally see how it is going. We can now do some extrapolations and make reasonable scenarios for the next few years perhaps. For instance, what if? some gradually go back to work, some go into fulfilling new needs while shutting down old ones, a rapid but not necessarily jarring transition takes place, where we are just more careful in what we use and how much. We find we can live just fine on 20% less of everything, scarcely noticing. That first 20% is relatively painless: we cut away the trendy spendy high-endy stuff, the pricey wine, the ocean cruises, the European tours and such, but life goes on. The CEO calls the company all-hands, tells em: We all get to keep our jobs? Everyone cheers. So what?s the bad news? She continues: You didn?t let me finish. I was going to add: ? if you still want them. Starting today, we are all working for a 20% discount. Stunned silence. One of the MVPs calls out: I QUIT! CEO: Adios amigo. Anyone else? Silence. The others shuffle back to their desks, dispirited, wondering how the hell they are going to service their debt payments, but glad to still have 80 yen on the yang. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Tue Apr 7 21:35:27 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 14:35:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ant Games In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200407143527.Horde.IJecf0TyCuG6e8xfwXn9VtM@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: > Stuart, if one is of a mind to do this kind of thing, you can arrange for an > ant bridge like this using a piece of string or a strip of duct tape. It is > a low-cost way of getting rid of a wasp nest. If the building is a storage > shed rather than a casa, keeping ants makes sense: they control your > termites. > > This is not to detract from the brilliance of the ants. I love ants (to > watch I mean, I don't eat them.) I have seen cool ant-bridges in my > misspent youth in Florida, not made with any technical assistance. Nothing > like this however. > > But... that does give me an idea. Create a hanging ant bridge like this > one, use it as a prize for an aardvark race. Then we sell them the > aardvarks. And the specialty bridge-twine made of crushed ant-bodies, so it > is all aardvark-edible, kind of like those treats your dog loves so well, > only for aardvarks. While your idea of using a string to get ants to get rid of wasps is very clever, the guy who took the video who is an amateur ant enthusiast claims that this is completely an ant construction with no help from him. Since he would have gotten just as much attention if not more for finding a way to get ants to attack wasp nests they might not otherwise attack, I tend to believe him. Of course there is the whole problem of getting close enough to both army ants on the march and a wasp nest to pull the trick off. This requires some measure of courage but you have kept bees so it would probably be a piece of cake for you. Nonetheless, you answer is not correct. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_mNC81fnyY Want to take a stab at figuring out why the army ants in the video built the bridge that they did? Anyone? Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Tue Apr 7 21:47:01 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 14:47:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200407144701.Horde.azCKMPD-yL-pGFD4TFjnq1Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: > Hospitals in the US and around the world are not as overwhelmed as they > might have been because emergency rooms report a 50% reduction in > non-COVID19 cases such as heart attacks, strokes, and even appendicitis. > It's reasonable to assume part of the reason for this is sick people are > reluctant to go to a hospital and possibly get infected, but that may not > be the entire answer. People are probably exercising less now, could they > have been doing too much before? > > Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone? > My guess? Mornings where they have to get up early and rush off to work are very stressful for people with CVD. Since most heart attacks happen in the morning, people sleeping in every day because they have nowhere to go means a lot less heart attacks. No mornings means fewer heart attacks. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 7 22:18:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 15:18:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ant Games In-Reply-To: <20200407143527.Horde.IJecf0TyCuG6e8xfwXn9VtM@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200407143527.Horde.IJecf0TyCuG6e8xfwXn9VtM@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <009201d60d2a$6f1cbc30$4d563490$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 2:35 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Stuart LaForge Subject: Re: [ExI] Ant Games Quoting Spike: > Stuart, if one is of a mind to do this kind of thing, you can arrange > for an ant bridge like this using a piece of string or a strip of duct > tape... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_mNC81fnyY >...While your idea of using a string to get ants to get rid of wasps is very clever, the guy who took the video who is an amateur ant enthusiast claims that this is completely an ant construction with no help from him... Stuart LaForge Hmmmm. I have seen ant bridges in my tragically misspent youth, but they were vertical hangers. If one works thru the mechanics of the thing, to do this without a structure would require the ants went from the attachment points in tight formation along the eve, clasped paws (or claws or anything they got now) and subsequently released their grip on the underside of the eve. I can't imagine ants doing this, or why they would do it. There must be something more going on, for photography has been with us for a long time, yet I find no other examples of anything distantly analogous to this bridge. Could it have been assisted by some other agent who then called upon him after the ant bridge was in place? Regarding messing with wasps and bees: just get a good sair of "overhauls" and a mosquito net helmet, boots, tape your sleeves, you are good to go. Wasps can't get you. If you are still worried, just mess with them at night. Bees and wasps don't fly at night and seldom sting even if they walk aboard. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 22:30:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 18:30:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 needs a Manhattan Project Message-ID: A single vaccine factory can cost half a billion dollars and 44 vaccines are in early stage development, and even after you find one that works and is safe you're going to need billions of doses to vaccinate everybody. Because nobody else is doing anything Bill Gates picked 7 out of those 44 that he thought were most promising and decided to build factories right now for all 7 with full knowledge that he will end up wasting billions of dollars. Gates said: "*Even though we?ll end up picking at most two of them, we?re going to fund factories for all seven, just so that we don?t waste time in serially saying, ?OK, which vaccine works?? and then building the factory. We can start now by building the facilities where these vaccines will be made. Because many of the top candidates are made using unique equipment, we?ll have to build facilities for each of them, knowing that some won?t get used. Private companies can?t take that kind of risk, but the federal government can.*" Gates can take the risk but so can the federal government, and they can do things on an even larger scale than he can. And we're not going to get back to normal until a vaccine is found and we're mass producing it. The following is from an editorial in the March 27 2020 issue of the journal Science: *"There is an unprecedented race to develop a vaccine against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). With at least 44 vaccines in early-stage development, what outcome can we expect? Will the first vaccine to cross the finish line be the safest and most effective? Or will it be the most well-funded vaccines that first become available, or perhaps those using vaccine technologies with the fewest regulatory hurdles? The answer could be a vaccine that ticks all these boxes. If we want to maximize the chances for success, however, and have enough doses to end the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, current piecemeal efforts won't be enough. If ever there was a case for a coordinated global vaccine development effort using a ?big science? approach, it is now.There is a strong track record for publicly funded, large-scale scientific endeavors that bring together global expertise and resources toward a common goal. The Manhattan Project brought about nuclear weapons quickly (although with terrible implications for humanity) through an approach that led to countless changes in how scientists from many countries work together. The Human Genome Project and CERN (the European Organization for Nuclear Research) engaged scientists from around the world to drive basic research from their home labs through local and virtual teamwork. Taking this big, coordinated approach to developing a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine will not only potentially save hundreds of thousands of lives, but will also help the world be better prepared for the next pandemic.An initiative of this scale won't be easy. Extraordinary sharing of information and resources will be critical, including data on the virus, the various vaccine candidates, vaccine adjuvants, cell lines, and manufacturing advances. Allowing different efforts to follow their own leads during the early stages will take advantage of healthy competition that is vital to the scientific endeavor. We must then decide which vaccine candidates warrant further exploration purely on the basis of scientific merit. This will require drawing on work already supported by many government agencies, independent organizations like the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations, and pharmaceutical and biotech companies to ensure that no potentially important candidate vaccines are missed. Only then can we start to narrow in on those candidates to be advanced through all clinical trial phases. This shortlist also needs to be based on which candidates can be developed, approved, and manufactured most efficiently.Trials need to be carried out in parallel, not sequentially, using adaptive trial designs, optimized for speed and tested in different populations?rich and developing countries, from children to the elderly?so that we can ultimately protect everyone. Because the virus is spreading quickly, testing will be needed in communities where we can get answers fast?that means running trials anywhere in the world, not just in preset testing locations. Working with regulators early in the process will increase the likelihood of rapid approvals, and then once approved, a coordinated effort will ensure that sufficient quantities are available to all who need the vaccine, not just to the highest bidder.All of this will require substantial funding, which is the big ask of big science. Late-stage clinical trials are not cheap, nor is vaccine manufacturing. Although new modular manufacturing methods may speed up the process and cut costs, a single vaccine facility can cost half a billion dollars. Distribution comes at a cost, too. So, to guarantee sufficient production of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, incentives are needed to engage manufacturers for large-scale capacity. As for dissemination, those organizations with experience in global vaccine distribution, like Gavi, will be at the ready.Ideally, this effort would be led by a team with a scientific advisory mechanism of the highest quality that could operate under the auspices of the World Health Organization (WHO), for example. But none of this will be possible without political will and a global commitment from leaders of the G7 and G20 countries and multilateral organizations, like the WHO and the World Bank. A pandemic of this magnitude, affecting so many lives, livelihoods, and economies, demands this.In many ways, COVID-19 is more like the Manhattan Project than other big science efforts, not just because it involves the application of science and not just in terms of scale, but because it is a global security issue. In the race to develop a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine, everyone must win."* John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 23:41:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 18:41:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A puzzle In-Reply-To: <20200407144701.Horde.azCKMPD-yL-pGFD4TFjnq1Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200407144701.Horde.azCKMPD-yL-pGFD4TFjnq1Z@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: means a lot less heart attacks. No mornings means fewer heart attacks. Stuart LaForge Good for you! My mother, an English teacher would think well of you. bill w On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 4:49 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting John Clark: > > > Hospitals in the US and around the world are not as overwhelmed as they > > might have been because emergency rooms report a 50% reduction in > > non-COVID19 cases such as heart attacks, strokes, and even appendicitis. > > It's reasonable to assume part of the reason for this is sick people are > > reluctant to go to a hospital and possibly get infected, but that may not > > be the entire answer. People are probably exercising less now, could they > > have been doing too much before? > > > > Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone? > > < > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/well/live/coronavirus-doctors-hospitals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html?algo=identity&fellback=false&imp_id=517932151&imp_id=478355170&action=click&module=Science%20%20Technology&pgtype=Homepage > > > > My guess? Mornings where they have to get up early and rush off to > work are very stressful for people with CVD. Since most heart attacks > happen in the morning, people sleeping in every day because they have > nowhere to go means a lot less heart attacks. No mornings means fewer > heart attacks. > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 11:40:54 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 07:40:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 3:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > She continues: You didn?t let me finish. I was going to add: ? if you > still want them. Starting today, we are all working for a 20% discount. > I'd gladly take a 20% cut if I could work from home, as I've been doing for the past three weeks. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 8 13:50:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 06:50:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> From: Dave Sill Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 4:41 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Spike Jones Subject: Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 3:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: She continues: You didn?t let me finish. I was going to add: ? if you still want them. Starting today, we are all working for a 20% discount. I'd gladly take a 20% cut if I could work from home, as I've been doing for the past three weeks. -Dave Dave there are plenty of people who would, but that might be an optimistic scenario. Information workers whose work is relevant will likely have options, but not all will. My neighbor is a production engineer in a local electronics factory which is closed. There is nothing he can do from home while the machines are idle, so he is out of luck. Some of the locals work from home. So imagine a scenario where we realize that we have the tech to do work from home and our needs change a lot. For starters, I am looking for grocery delivery services. I used them a few times a coupla years ago and found they work, but they weren?t compelling. Now they are. But now they are not available. They can?t hire enough people to put the products in the boxes and tape them shut. We have enough Uber drivers I think, but not enough packers willing to work for 12 bucks an hour after they have been making 50 on average at their other jobs. What I am doing is envisioning a new normal where people generally don?t do the high-luxury stuff nearly as much, don?t eat at restaurants much, don?t go on road trips or fly across the sea. We could still feed everyone and lotsa stuff would be done from home. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 14:21:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:21:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What I am doing is envisioning a new normal where people generally don?t do the high-luxury stuff nearly as much, don?t eat at restaurants much, don?t go on road trips or fly across sea. We could still feed everyone and lotsa stuff would be done from home. spike Lotsa luck getting people to lower their standards of living voluntarily. What you describe would appear to most folks as what went on in the Depression (which was far worse, but they don't know that). If people can afford luxuries, they will buy them - ditto all the other things you mention. Most people out there are not minimalists like you , Spike. bill w On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 8:53 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* Dave Sill > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 8, 2020 4:41 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Spike Jones > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs > > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 3:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > She continues: You didn?t let me finish. I was going to add: ? if you > still want them. Starting today, we are all working for a 20% discount. > > > > I'd gladly take a 20% cut if I could work from home, as I've been doing > for the past three weeks. > > > > -Dave > > > > > > Dave there are plenty of people who would, but that might be an optimistic > scenario. Information workers whose work is relevant will likely have > options, but not all will. My neighbor is a production engineer in a local > electronics factory which is closed. There is nothing he can do from home > while the machines are idle, so he is out of luck. Some of the locals work > from home. > > > > So imagine a scenario where we realize that we have the tech to do work > from home and our needs change a lot. For starters, I am looking for > grocery delivery services. I used them a few times a coupla years ago and > found they work, but they weren?t compelling. Now they are. But now they > are not available. They can?t hire enough people to put the products in > the boxes and tape them shut. We have enough Uber drivers I think, but not > enough packers willing to work for 12 bucks an hour after they have been > making 50 on average at their other jobs. > > > > What I am doing is envisioning a new normal where people generally don?t > do the high-luxury stuff nearly as much, don?t eat at restaurants much, > don?t go on road trips or fly across the sea. We could still feed everyone > and lotsa stuff would be done from home. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 8 15:23:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 08:23:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs >>?What I am doing is envisioning a new normal where people generally don?t do the high-luxury stuff nearly as much?spike >?Lotsa luck getting people to lower their standards of living voluntarily. What you describe would appear to most folks as what went on in the Depression (which was far worse, but they don't know that). If people can afford luxuries, they will buy them - ditto all the other things you mention. Most people out there are not minimalists like you , Spike. bill w Of course. I am not suggesting any form of personal austerity would be voluntary. I am envisioning people who once worked in businesses much more in demand (higher end restaurants for instance) transitioning in to fill a much greater need that pays less (boxing groceries for delivery.) Perhaps one of the biggest transitions will be dependent on one?s debt load. I have always considered it a very bad idea to carry debt beyond what is necessary. Carrying debt bets on the future being like the past. That works, right up until it suddenly doesn?t. But the lender still wants and fully expects her regular payment in full on time even if your salary suddenly dropped to half what it was before. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 16:44:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 11:44:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: My wife and I feel really protected: Medicare is not going under; my pension is not going under; I have no debt other than a mortgage. It would take massive changes in our economy to alter any of that. I do feel for people who are out of work. In other countries,like Britain, people who are off are guaranteed their jobs back. Not here. BTW - online learning doesn't work well according to an article in the Washington Post. Over summer students lose large percentages of their math skills, for one - called summer slide. bill w On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 10:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs > > > > >>?What I am doing is envisioning a new normal where people generally > don?t do the high-luxury stuff nearly as much?spike > > >?Lotsa luck getting people to lower their standards of living > voluntarily. What you describe would appear to most folks as what went on > in the Depression (which was far worse, but they don't know that). If > people can afford luxuries, they will buy them - ditto all the other things > you mention. > > Most people out there are not minimalists like you , Spike. > > bill w > > > > > > Of course. I am not suggesting any form of personal austerity would be > voluntary. I am envisioning people who once worked in businesses much more > in demand (higher end restaurants for instance) transitioning in to fill a > much greater need that pays less (boxing groceries for delivery.) > > Perhaps one of the biggest transitions will be dependent on one?s debt > load. I have always considered it a very bad idea to carry debt beyond > what is necessary. Carrying debt bets on the future being like the past. > That works, right up until it suddenly doesn?t. But the lender still wants > and fully expects her regular payment in full on time even if your salary > suddenly dropped to half what it was before. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 19:50:35 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 15:50:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ventilators Message-ID: The good news is that today in the very first contract made under the Defense Production Act GM was ordered to make 30,000 ventilators for $489.4 million. The bad news is they won't be ready until late August. Pity this was done on April 8 not January 8. Meanwhile as of 19:17 GMT 14,369 Americans have died of COVID-19 and at its rate of increase in a few hours it will overtake Spain and become #2 in the total death count category. It won't take long for the USA to overtake Italy and become #1 because Italy's death count is now only doubling every 2 weeks, but the USA's death count is still doubling every 4 days. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 07:34:14 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 02:34:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What does summer slide have to do with online learning? The best recommendation given for parents is just to keep kids using their skills over the summer ? via online games or exercises for example. SR Ballard > On Apr 8, 2020, at 11:44 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > My wife and I feel really protected: Medicare is not going under; my pension is not going under; I have no debt other than a mortgage. It would take massive changes in our economy to alter any of that. I do feel for people who are out of work. In other countries,like Britain, people who are off are guaranteed their jobs back. Not here. > > BTW - online learning doesn't work well according to an article in the Washington Post. Over summer students lose large percentages of their math skills, for one - called summer slide. > > bill w > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 10:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> Subject: Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs >> >> >> >> >>?What I am doing is envisioning a new normal where people generally don?t do the high-luxury stuff nearly as much?spike >> >> >?Lotsa luck getting people to lower their standards of living voluntarily. What you describe would appear to most folks as what went on in the Depression (which was far worse, but they don't know that). If people can afford luxuries, they will buy them - ditto all the other things you mention. >> >> Most people out there are not minimalists like you , Spike. >> >> bill w >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course. I am not suggesting any form of personal austerity would be voluntary. I am envisioning people who once worked in businesses much more in demand (higher end restaurants for instance) transitioning in to fill a much greater need that pays less (boxing groceries for delivery.) >> >> Perhaps one of the biggest transitions will be dependent on one?s debt load. I have always considered it a very bad idea to carry debt beyond what is necessary. Carrying debt bets on the future being like the past. That works, right up until it suddenly doesn?t. But the lender still wants and fully expects her regular payment in full on time even if your salary suddenly dropped to half what it was before. >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Wed Apr 8 16:54:15 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 12:54:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 needs a Manhattan Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <906257034faaacdce2aec924eb3cde6d@ultimax.com> The subject line was well-chosen. This is exactly what General Groves decided to do in 1942. He didn't know which path to producing enough fissionable fuel for The Bomb would work, but felt sure that one of them would. So he covered all four bets simultaneously: for uranium-235 gun-type weapon, which they were so sure would work that they never bothered testing it: . calutrons (electromagnetic separation), aka "Y-12" . gaseous diffusion aka "K-25" . thermal diffusion aka "S-50". and also a completely separate path to a much trickier weapon, one based on the implosion of plutonium-239, aka "X-10". The pilot for transmuting U into Pu was in Oak Ridge, Tenn. at the Graphite Reactor; the giant plute production reactors were at Hanford, Wash. Both atomic weapon themselves were designed and fabricated at Los Alamos, New Mex. In the fullness of time, three of the four methods worked out. S-50 was dropped for being an energy hog once they realized that gaseous separation of U-235 to low enrichment would work for heavy lifting bulk separation, with the calutrons @ Y-12 taking the stuff the rest of the way to weapons grade in two stages. I always wondered why Groves wasn't more lauded than he was for such bold visionary decision-making early in the War when it really made a difference. Anyway, that's why the subject line is a good analogy. Apparently the founder of Microsoft has cracked a history book or two. However, this pandemic is beyond war. People who cite the Apollo program or the Manhattan project are under-scaling the "all of society" (as the WHO terms it) "all hands on deck" (as we say) response that will be required. Robert G. Kennedy III, PE (resident of Oak Ridge, Tenn.) www.ultimax.com 1994 AAAS/ASME Congressional Fellow U.S. House Subcommittee on Space On 2020-04-08 11:24, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 18:30:07 -0400 > From: John Clark > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 needs a Manhattan Project [snip] > > A single vaccine factory can cost half a billion dollars and 44 > vaccines are in early stage development, and even after you find one > that > works and is safe you're going to need billions of doses to vaccinate > everybody. Because nobody else is doing anything Bill Gates picked 7 > out of > those 44 that he thought were most promising and decided to build > factories > right now for all 7 with full knowledge that he will end up wasting > billions of dollars. Gates said: > > "*Even though we?ll end up picking at most two of them, we?re going to > fund > factories for all seven, just so that we don?t waste time in serially > saying, ?OK, which vaccine works?? and then building the factory. We > can > start now by building the facilities where these vaccines will be made. > Because many of the top candidates are made using unique equipment, > we?ll > have to build facilities for each of them, knowing that some won?t get > used. Private companies can?t take that kind of risk, but the federal > government can.*" > > Gates can take the risk but so can the federal government, and they can > do > things on an even larger scale than he can. And we're not going to get > back > to normal until a vaccine is found and we're mass producing it. The > following is from an editorial in the March 27 2020 issue of the > journal > Science: > > *"There is an unprecedented race to develop a vaccine against severe > acute > respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). With at least 44 > vaccines > in early-stage development, what outcome can we expect? Will the first > vaccine to cross the finish line be the safest and most effective? Or > will > it be the most well-funded vaccines that first become available, or > perhaps > those using vaccine technologies with the fewest regulatory hurdles? > The > answer could be a vaccine that ticks all these boxes. If we want to > maximize the chances for success, however, and have enough doses to end > the > coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, current piecemeal efforts > won't be enough. If ever there was a case for a coordinated global > vaccine > development effort using a ?big science? approach, it is now.There is a > strong track record for publicly funded, large-scale scientific > endeavors > that bring together global expertise and resources toward a common > goal. > The Manhattan Project brought about nuclear weapons quickly (although > with > terrible implications for humanity) through an approach that led to > countless changes in how scientists from many countries work together. > The > Human Genome Project and CERN (the European Organization for Nuclear > Research) engaged scientists from around the world to drive basic > research > from their home labs through local and virtual teamwork. Taking this > big, > coordinated approach to developing a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine will not only > potentially save hundreds of thousands of lives, but will also help the > world be better prepared for the next pandemic.An initiative of this > scale > won't be easy. Extraordinary sharing of information and resources will > be > critical, including data on the virus, the various vaccine candidates, > vaccine adjuvants, cell lines, and manufacturing advances. Allowing > different efforts to follow their own leads during the early stages > will > take advantage of healthy competition that is vital to the scientific > endeavor. We must then decide which vaccine candidates warrant further > exploration purely on the basis of scientific merit. This will require > drawing on work already supported by many government agencies, > independent > organizations like the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations, > and > pharmaceutical and biotech companies to ensure that no potentially > important candidate vaccines are missed. Only then can we start to > narrow > in on those candidates to be advanced through all clinical trial > phases. > This shortlist also needs to be based on which candidates can be > developed, > approved, and manufactured most efficiently.Trials need to be carried > out > in parallel, not sequentially, using adaptive trial designs, optimized > for > speed and tested in different populations?rich and developing > countries, > from children to the elderly?so that we can ultimately protect > everyone. > Because the virus is spreading quickly, testing will be needed in > communities where we can get answers fast?that means running trials > anywhere in the world, not just in preset testing locations. Working > with > regulators early in the process will increase the likelihood of rapid > approvals, and then once approved, a coordinated effort will ensure > that > sufficient quantities are available to all who need the vaccine, not > just > to the highest bidder.All of this will require substantial funding, > which > is the big ask of big science. Late-stage clinical trials are not > cheap, > nor is vaccine manufacturing. Although new modular manufacturing > methods > may speed up the process and cut costs, a single vaccine facility can > cost > half a billion dollars. Distribution comes at a cost, too. So, to > guarantee > sufficient production of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, incentives are needed to > engage manufacturers for large-scale capacity. As for dissemination, > those > organizations with experience in global vaccine distribution, like > Gavi, > will be at the ready.Ideally, this effort would be led by a team with a > scientific advisory mechanism of the highest quality that could operate > under the auspices of the World Health Organization (WHO), for example. > But > none of this will be possible without political will and a global > commitment from leaders of the G7 and G20 countries and multilateral > organizations, like the WHO and the World Bank. A pandemic of this > magnitude, affecting so many lives, livelihoods, and economies, demands > this.In many ways, COVID-19 is more like the Manhattan Project than > other > big science efforts, not just because it involves the application of > science and not just in terms of scale, but because it is a global > security > issue. In the race to develop a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine, everyone must > win."* [snippissimo] From avant at sollegro.com Wed Apr 8 22:40:26 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 15:40:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ant Games In-Reply-To: <836874541.1491337.1586300858320@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200407143527.Horde.IJecf0TyCuG6e8xfwXn9VtM@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <009201d60d2a$6f1cbc30$4d563490$@rainier66.com> <836874541.1491337.1586300858320@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200408154026.Horde.cATW2VFDY1Tem6lmOQoQiCy@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: >> ...While your idea of using a string to get ants to get rid of wasps is > very clever, the guy who took the video who is an amateur ant enthusiast > claims that this is completely an ant construction with no help from him... > Stuart LaForge > > Hmmmm.? I have seen ant bridges in my tragically misspent youth, but they > were vertical hangers. > > If one works thru the mechanics of the thing, to do this without a structure > would require the ants went from the attachment points in tight formation > along the eve, clasped paws (or claws or anything they got now) and > subsequently released their grip on the underside of the eve.? I can't > imagine ants doing this, or why they would do it. The why of the matter is a little easier than the how. An unladen worker ant has claws that enable it to crawl across the ceiling inverted. Notice the ones scurrying around the base of the wasp nest in the video thus the scouts being able to discover the wasp nest and set down a pheromone trail. The problem is that the fat white wasp larvae probably weigh several times what a worker ant does, and tarsal claws are not good enough for that, unlike a fly or a gecko's adhesion pads. The how is harder to ascertain. It is because this genus of ant, Eciton, is known for building bridges. Normally they build cantilever bridges to cross gaps right side up. But in this case, since they are inverted, they built a suspension bridge. It is of note that this species builds nests out of their own bodies called bivouacs that hang from support structures. https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/army-ant-bivouac.html These hanging bivouacs have millions of individuals inside as well as, if I recall correctly, the largest queen of any ant species. They can get away with that long massive suspension bridge because their bodies are much stronger under tension than they are under compression or shear. https://fineartamerica.com/featured/army-ants-building-bivouac-mark-moffett.html?product=duvet-cover-bodies The Eciton ant colony forms a very smart swarm mind composed of ants whose tiny brain are a larger percent of their mass than our brains are ours. Each such ant is in dynamic pheromone and touch contact with millions of other individuals within the colony. In the case of army ants of the genus Eciton, this hive mind is obsessed with efficiency as can be demonstrated by this article from PNAS about the pattern/algorithm that army ants use to cross gaps. https://www.pnas.org/content/112/49/15113#ref-1 https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-simple-algorithm-that-ants-use-to-build-bridges-20180226/ In short, if an ant encounters a gap, then it slows down and tries to reach across the gap. If the ant slowing down causes another ant to crawl atop it, then the ant that gets walked on essentially grabs on tight and freezes in place, becoming a girder in the bridge. > There must be something more going on, for photography has been with us for > a long time, yet I find no other examples of anything distantly analogous to > this bridge. If you look at the bivouac structures in the alamy link, then you will see several structures that are somewhat analogous. Also look closely at the video. Here is a better quality copy without any annoying music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUNKQqCRFuQ Notice that there are "bridging" workers. Workers who are stationary and acting like support cables. If a man-made string was there, there would be no need for the ants to bridge, those bridging workers would simply use the string to gather the wasp larvae faster, better, and cheaper. > Could it have been assisted by some other agent who then called upon him > after the ant bridge was in place? I did notice that the videographer had his Twitter account deleted so maybe you are right. It just seems odd that a hoaxster would use such a long string when a much shorter one would have sufficed. Whereas small living cables of high tensile strength and low shear modulus, would likely try that elongated catenary curve so as to minimize gravitational shear forces and exploit their tensile strength. My guess is that started somewhere near the middle and worked its way outward. Because the guy deleted his Twitter account, I admit it might be a hoax. He is an electrical engineer after all. But there is sufficient physical evidence to give it the benefit of the doubt, don't you think? Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 8 16:43:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:43:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d501d60dc4$e020ded0$a0629c70$@rainier66.com> Hey here ya go: U.S. reports 1,264 coronavirus deaths in over 24 hours. Meanwhile in China, where the pandemic broke out, not a single new coronavirus death was reported. https://t.co/ooXkR9X2L5 ? NBC News (@NBCNews) April 7, 2020 If the rest of the world follows the same pattern, this pandemic should just disappear without a trace. Or China is lying. I used to talk to my grandparents about what it was like when they were growing up. They lived in West Virginia coal country, which was perpetually depressed compared to the rest of the country, so they weren?t much impacted by the 1929 crash or the aftermath. It was interesting to hear my grandfathers? experiences during those years. In both cases they considered the 1930s generally better years than the 1920s, and questioned why the earlier decade was considered roaring while the latter the depression. For them, it was almost the other way around. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 11:09:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 07:09:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How confirmed cases of coronavirus have spread Message-ID: Anybody who still thinks the US has not totally bungled its response to the COVID-19 Coronavirus should watch this animated chart, it's only 53 seconds long and things don't get really interesting until about second 25, but then you see its number of cases exploud at an astonishing speed that dwarfs every other country in the world. How confirmed cases of coronavirus have spread As of April 9 2020 at 11:07 GMT 14,820 Americans have died of COVID-19, the good news is the death numbers are only doubling every 5 days not every 4 as they were before, although even now no country has a higher rate of virus growth than the US. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 11:47:51 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 07:47:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Will the summer heat help with the virus? Message-ID: >From the 9 page report of The National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine, sent to the White House: *?Given current data, we believe that the pandemic likely will not diminish because of summer, and we should be careful not to base policies and strategies around the hope that it will. We might very well see a reduction in spread in the beginning of the summer, but we have to be careful not to put that down to a changing climate ? it is plausible that such a reduction could be due to other measures put in place. Human behavior will be most important. If a human coughs or sneezes enough virus close enough to the next susceptible person, then temperature and humidity just won?t matter that much. Given that countries currently in ?summer? climates, such as Australia and Iran, are experiencing rapid virus spread, a decrease in cases with increases in humidity and temperature elsewhere should not be assumed.?* John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 12:55:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 07:55:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] good news/bad news Message-ID: In our paper this morning is a report of a local anesthesiologist building a ventilator for less than $100 from parts available at Lowe's or Home Depot. They can be made in under an hour and more than 100 have been made. Parts include garden hose and a lamp timer. The MS medical center is applying for emergency use permission. In a state where 59% are white, 38% black, 72% of the deaths are of black people. Of those diagnosed 56% are black and 37% white. No explanation was offered in the paper. I don't have the figures at the moment, but this may be related to the fact that blacks are overwhelmingly obese, particularly the women, and of course diabetes and high blood pressure go with obesity. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 13:01:05 2020 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:01:05 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Will the summer heat help with the virus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > * Given that countries currently in ?summer? climates, such as Australia and Iran* There is nothing like summer in Iran now. Quite a big mistake for such a distinguished body. On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 1:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > From the 9 page report of The National Academies of Sciences, Engineering > and Medicine, sent to the White House: > > *?Given current data, we believe that the pandemic likely will not > diminish because of summer, and we should be careful not to base policies > and strategies around the hope that it will. We might very well see a > reduction in spread in the beginning of the summer, but we have to be > careful not to put that down to a changing climate ? it is plausible that > such a reduction could be due to other measures put in place. Human > behavior will be most important. If a human coughs or sneezes enough virus > close enough to the next susceptible person, then temperature and humidity > just won?t matter that much. Given that countries currently in ?summer? > climates, such as Australia and Iran, are experiencing rapid virus spread, > a decrease in cases with increases in humidity and temperature elsewhere > should not be assumed.?* > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 13:23:37 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:23:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] good news/bad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:58 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In our paper this morning is a report of a local anesthesiologist building > a ventilator for less than $100 from parts available at Lowe's or Home > Depot. They can be made in under an hour and more than 100 have been > made. Parts include garden hose and a lamp timer. The MS medical center > is applying for emergency use permission. > Ventilators aren't very effective. This preprint might explain why: https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173/6 "The novel coronavirus pneumonia (COVID-19) is an infectious acute respiratory infection caused by the novel coronavirus. The virus is a positive-strand RNA virus with high homology to bat coronavirus. In this study, conserved domain analysis, homology modeling, and molecular docking were used to compare the biological roles of certain proteins of the novel coronavirus. The results showed the ORF8 and surface glycoprotein could bind to the porphyrin, respectively. At the same time, orf1ab, ORF10, and ORF3a proteins could coordinate attack the heme on the 1-beta chain of hemoglobin to dissociate the iron to form the porphyrin. The attack will cause less and less hemoglobin that can carry oxygen and carbon dioxide. The lung cells have extremely intense poisoning and inflammatory due to the inability to exchange carbon dioxide and oxygen frequently, which eventually results in ground-glass-like lung images. The mechanism also interfered with the normal heme anabolic pathway of the human body, is expected to result in human disease. According to the validation analysis of these finds, chloroquine could prevent orf1ab, ORF3a, and ORF10 to attack the heme to form the porphyrin, and inhibit the binding of ORF8 and surface glycoproteins to porphyrins to a certain extent, effectively relieve the symptoms of respiratory distress. Since the ability of chloroquine to inhibit structural proteins is not particularly obvious, the therapeutic effect on different people may be different. Favipiravir could inhibit the envelope protein and ORF7a protein bind to porphyrin, prevent the virus from entering host cells, and catching free porphyrins. This paper is only for academic discussion, the correctness needs to be confirmed by other laboratories. Due to the side effects and allergic reactions of drugs such as chloroquine, please consult a qualified doctor for treatment details, and do not take the medicine yourself." Basically, they think the virus binds to hemoglobin and doesn't unbind. So forcing oxygen into the lungs is of limited use since the blood's capacity to carry oxygen is diminished. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 13:43:40 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:43:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] good news/bad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I saw this paper yesterday, and speculate that a combination of iron chelation agents and blood transfusions should be effective if this turns out to be true. On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 9:24 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:58 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> In our paper this morning is a report of a local anesthesiologist >> building a ventilator for less than $100 from parts available at Lowe's or >> Home Depot. They can be made in under an hour and more than 100 have been >> made. Parts include garden hose and a lamp timer. The MS medical center >> is applying for emergency use permission. >> > > Ventilators aren't very effective. This preprint might explain why: > > > https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173/6 > > "The novel coronavirus pneumonia (COVID-19) is an infectious acute > respiratory infection caused by the novel coronavirus. The virus is a > positive-strand RNA virus with high homology to bat coronavirus. In this > study, conserved domain analysis, homology modeling, and molecular docking > were used to compare the biological roles of certain proteins of the novel > coronavirus. The results showed the ORF8 and surface glycoprotein could > bind to the porphyrin, respectively. At the same time, orf1ab, ORF10, and > ORF3a proteins could coordinate attack the heme on the 1-beta chain of > hemoglobin to dissociate the iron to form the porphyrin. The attack will > cause less and less hemoglobin that can carry oxygen and carbon dioxide. > The lung cells have extremely intense poisoning and inflammatory due to the > inability to exchange carbon dioxide and oxygen frequently, which > eventually results in ground-glass-like lung images. The mechanism also > interfered with the normal heme anabolic pathway of the human body, is > expected to result in human disease. According to the validation analysis > of these finds, chloroquine could prevent orf1ab, ORF3a, and ORF10 to > attack the heme to form the porphyrin, and inhibit the binding of ORF8 and > surface glycoproteins to porphyrins to a certain extent, effectively > relieve the symptoms of respiratory distress. Since the ability of > chloroquine to inhibit structural proteins is not particularly obvious, the > therapeutic effect on different people may be different. Favipiravir could > inhibit the envelope protein and ORF7a protein bind to porphyrin, prevent > the virus from entering host cells, and catching free porphyrins. This > paper is only for academic discussion, the correctness needs to be > confirmed by other laboratories. Due to the side effects and allergic > reactions of drugs such as chloroquine, please consult a qualified doctor > for treatment details, and do not take the medicine yourself." > > Basically, they think the virus binds to hemoglobin and doesn't unbind. So > forcing oxygen into the lungs is of limited use since the blood's capacity > to carry oxygen is diminished. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 9 14:04:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 07:04:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e401d60e77$ba795820$2f6c0860$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs >? In other countries,like Britain, people who are off are guaranteed their jobs back. Not here? What happens in Britain if their former place of employment has gone out of business during the quarantine? Plenty of US workers will find that is the case here. I don?t see what the government can do for them. There are plenty of new jobs opening up, but they don?t pay as well. >?BTW - online learning doesn't work well according to an article in the Washington Post? It depends on the student. Some use the resources effectively, others use it as an extended vacation. We are seeing both kinds here. >?Over summer students lose large percentages of their math skills, for one - called summer slide. bill w Some students do. Others move ahead smartly in all areas, particularly the ones they already know well and like. During a period of online learning, the academically rich get rich and the poor get nothing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 9 14:23:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 07:23:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f901d60e7a$78d1e970$6a75bc50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:34 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: SR Ballard Subject: Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs What does summer slide have to do with online learning? The best recommendation given for parents is just to keep kids using their skills over the summer ? via online games or exercises for example. SR Ballard I have friends particularly in the math departments who will tell me how it is going. One strategy for teachers is to double the work load in the hope that the students will do half of it. Some will do all of it, and will charge ahead. A math teacher friend of mine told me that she estimates as many as a third of her students are doing little to nothing. There?s another signal I hope to extract: the benefit of having the school district ready to crank up on an hour?s notice. Our district did, the surrounding districts did not. They took two weeks to get going, some longer. Once the students sat around with nothing to do for two or three weeks while their districts farted around tripping over themselves, many never really got started again. The notice of shutdown came out on a Friday. Our district fired up and ran the following Monday. They had piles of ChromeBooks ready to give out to any student who didn?t have his or her own computer, the free WiFi was already up and running before that. Now, when state wide testing happens next year, our lower-middle class district out here on the eastern edge of civilization is going to politely whoop aaassssss? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 14:34:54 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:34:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How confirmed cases of coronavirus have spread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Everyone knows we've bungled the response. Thread over On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 07:11 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Anybody who still thinks the US has not totally bungled its response to > the COVID-19 Coronavirus should watch this animated chart, it's only 53 > seconds long and things don't get really interesting until about second 25, > but then you see its number of cases exploud at an astonishing speed that > dwarfs every other country in the world. > > How confirmed cases of coronavirus have spread > > > As of April 9 2020 at 11:07 GMT 14,820 Americans have died of COVID-19, > the good news is the death numbers are only doubling every 5 days not every > 4 as they were before, although even now no country has a higher rate of > virus growth than the US. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 14:43:59 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:43:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] How confirmed cases of coronavirus have spread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6725FDF2-01B5-431A-9DB1-F62A54229620@gmail.com> I think we are all in agreement it was bungled. SR Ballard > On Apr 9, 2020, at 9:34 AM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > Everyone knows we've bungled the response. Thread over > >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020, 07:11 John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >> Anybody who still thinks the US has not totally bungled its response to the COVID-19 Coronavirus should watch this animated chart, it's only 53 seconds long and things don't get really interesting until about second 25, but then you see its number of cases exploud at an astonishing speed that dwarfs every other country in the world. >> >> How confirmed cases of coronavirus have spread >> >> As of April 9 2020 at 11:07 GMT 14,820 Americans have died of COVID-19, the good news is the death numbers are only doubling every 5 days not every 4 as they were before, although even now no country has a higher rate of virus growth than the US. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 15:20:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:20:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: <00e401d60e77$ba795820$2f6c0860$@rainier66.com> References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> <00e401d60e77$ba795820$2f6c0860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: During a period of online learning, the academically rich get rich and the poor get nothing. spike *Isn't this nearly always true in any situation? You have the cannots, the do-nots and the can do and will. Bimodal distribution.* On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 9:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs > > > > >? In other countries,like Britain, people who are off are > guaranteed their jobs back. Not here? > > > > What happens in Britain if their former place of employment has gone out > of business during the quarantine? Plenty of US workers will find that is > the case here. I don?t see what the government can do for them. There are > plenty of new jobs opening up, but they don?t pay as well. > > > > > > >?BTW - online learning doesn't work well according to an article in the > Washington Post? > > > > It depends on the student. Some use the resources effectively, others use > it as an extended vacation. We are seeing both kinds here. > > > > >?Over summer students lose large percentages of their math skills, for > one - called summer slide. bill w > > > > Some students do. Others move ahead smartly in all areas, particularly > the ones they already know well and like. > > > > During a period of online learning, the academically rich get rich and the > poor get nothing. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 15:23:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:23:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: <00f901d60e7a$78d1e970$6a75bc50$@rainier66.com> References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> <00f901d60e7a$78d1e970$6a75bc50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Now, when state wide testing happens next year, our lower-middle class district out here on the eastern edge of civilization is going to politely whoop aaassssss? spike *In what sense is your district middle class? Compared to whom? What would it be if it were here? Lower upper?* *I do not have a link to the research showing going online is about as bad as the summer slide. It was not in the article.* *bill w* On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 9:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:34 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* SR Ballard > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs > > > > What does summer slide have to do with online learning? The best > recommendation given for parents is just to keep kids using their skills > over the summer ? via online games or exercises for example. > > SR Ballard > > > > I have friends particularly in the math departments who will tell me how > it is going. One strategy for teachers is to double the work load in the > hope that the students will do half of it. Some will do all of it, and > will charge ahead. A math teacher friend of mine told me that she > estimates as many as a third of her students are doing little to nothing. > > > > There?s another signal I hope to extract: the benefit of having the school > district ready to crank up on an hour?s notice. Our district did, the > surrounding districts did not. They took two weeks to get going, some > longer. Once the students sat around with nothing to do for two or three > weeks while their districts farted around tripping over themselves, many > never really got started again. > > > > The notice of shutdown came out on a Friday. Our district fired up and > ran the following Monday. They had piles of ChromeBooks ready to give out > to any student who didn?t have his or her own computer, the free WiFi was > already up and running before that. > > > > Now, when state wide testing happens next year, our lower-middle class > district out here on the eastern edge of civilization is going to politely > whoop aaassssss? > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 9 15:57:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 08:57:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> <00f901d60e7a$78d1e970$6a75bc50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004101d60e87$a2f3d170$e8db7450$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs >>?Now, when state wide testing happens next year, our lower-middle class district out here on the eastern edge of civilization is going to politely whoop aaassssss? spike In what sense is your district middle class? Compared to whom? Compared to the neighbors in any direction. One can go north and see nice upscale homes everywhere, high performing schools and so on. To the south is the nicer areas of San Jose, comparable homes but higher value on Zillow. To the west is the hills where there are few homes but what is there is specialty stuff: walled communities with a guard, rap star estates (such as the monstrosity MC Hammer built up there) and to the east is Santa Clara, with smaller but pricier homes generally. Out here we were once the slummy area. But Mr. Musk came along and now we aren?t anymore. He started importing Indian engineers to build his electric cars. They transformed the place. Our town is very different now compared to a decade ago. What would it be if it were here? Lower upper? BillW I don?t know BillW. I am not sure how to answer that. It is different in many ways. I remember how hard it was to get a job when I grew up in rural Florida. Here aaaaanybody who can show up on time can get a minimum wage job and work as many hours as they wish. They can?t fill all the openings. Jobs go undone. The big need right now is for people who will fill boxes with groceries for home delivery. Can?t get em. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 9 16:24:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:24:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> <00e401d60e77$ba795820$2f6c0860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000a01d60e8b$488c3700$d9a4a500$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs >?During a period of online learning, the academically rich get rich and the poor get nothing. spike Isn't this nearly always true in any situation? You have the cannots, the do-nots and the can do and will. Bimodal distribution. Reasonable extrapolation suggests the same would apply to local businesses. Some were growing and really cooking, others just holding on and paying the bills. While everything is shut down, many have time to really think about how to be competitive, find more efficient ways to do their operations and so on. When the CDC suggests it is OK to get back to work, we will see new, highly efficient operating modes in some of those businesses, and others will be on their way outta town. We will soon be a new world with new needs and new don?t need anymores. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 16:55:02 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:55:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Will the summer heat help with the virus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 6:07 AM Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > * Given that countries currently in ?summer? climates, such as > Australia and Iran* > > There is nothing like summer in Iran now. Quite a big mistake for such a > distinguished body. > Australia, though. But yes, Iran's latitude is roughly Texas's, so it should get about the same range of seasonal temperatures. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 16:56:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:56:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: <000a01d60e8b$488c3700$d9a4a500$@rainier66.com> References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> <00e401d60e77$ba795820$2f6c0860$@rainier66.com> <000a01d60e8b$488c3700$d9a4a500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In Florida low median income is $26,000, middle is $75,000 and upper is $185,000. Where would your neighborhood fit? bill w On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:26 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, April 9, 2020 8:20 AM > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] reasonable what ifs > > > > >?During a period of online learning, the academically rich get rich and > the poor get nothing. > > > > spike > > > > *Isn't this nearly always true in any situation? You have the cannots, > the do-nots and the can do and will. Bimodal distribution.* > > > > > > Reasonable extrapolation suggests the same would apply to local > businesses. Some were growing and really cooking, others just holding on > and paying the bills. While everything is shut down, many have time to > really think about how to be competitive, find more efficient ways to do > their operations and so on. > > When the CDC suggests it is OK to get back to work, we will see new, > highly efficient operating modes in some of those businesses, and others > will be on their way outta town. We will soon be a new world with new > needs and new don?t need anymores. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 17:06:50 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:06:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: <004101d60e87$a2f3d170$e8db7450$@rainier66.com> References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> <00f901d60e7a$78d1e970$6a75bc50$@rainier66.com> <004101d60e87$a2f3d170$e8db7450$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *I remember how hard it was to get a job when I grew up in rural Florida. > Here aaaaanybody who can show up on time can get a minimum wage job and > work as many hours as they wish. They can?t fill all the openings. Jobs > go undone. The big need right now is for people who will fill boxes with > groceries for home delivery. Can?t get em.* > Hmm... It's almost like people can't afford to work there on minimum wage, or something. Is housing ridiculously expensive there or something? :-) I guess if employers can't hire people at minimum wage they could do something wacky like try offering them more. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 9 18:08:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:08:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reasonable what ifs In-Reply-To: References: <007001d60d16$4b986b10$e2c94130$@rainier66.com> <002d01d60dac$a60ffd10$f22ff730$@rainier66.com> <006401d60db9$b853f870$28fbe950$@rainier66.com> <00f901d60e7a$78d1e970$6a75bc50$@rainier66.com> <004101d60e87$a2f3d170$e8db7450$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006d01d60e99$e629e9e0$b27dbda0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat >?Hmm... It's almost like people can't afford to work there on minimum wage, or something. Is housing ridiculously expensive there or something? :-) Ehhh, yes. >? I guess if employers can't hire people at minimum wage they could do something wacky like try offering them more. -Dave Ja, there is that strategy. They already pay more than minimum. Typically about 15 bucks an hour is a typical starting wage, but it is hard to find people who will work for that. The real challenge is for grocery stores to hire enough people who will come down to half their previous salary to box groceries. As a grocer, you would need to compete with unemployment benefits for the next six months, which would pay better than they can afford. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 19:24:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:24:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 vaccine development landscape Message-ID: COVID-19 vaccine development landscape John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 20:51:25 2020 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 22:51:25 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Will the summer heat help with the virus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, those experts neglected something quite crucial, that's the point. So, I'll continue to doubt them. On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 6:56 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 6:07 AM Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > * Given that countries currently in ?summer? climates, such as >> Australia and Iran* >> >> There is nothing like summer in Iran now. Quite a big mistake for such a >> distinguished body. >> > > Australia, though. But yes, Iran's latitude is roughly Texas's, so it > should get about the same range of seasonal temperatures. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 10:43:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 06:43:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents Message-ID: *The following was in the April 10 2020 New York Times* *======* *Trump Has Emergency Powers We Aren?t Allowed to Know About* By Elizabeth Goitein and Andrew Boyle The past few weeks have given Americans a crash course in the powers that federal, state and local governments wield during emergencies. We?ve seen businesses closed down, citizens quarantined and travel restricted. When President Trump declared emergencies on March 13 under both the Stafford Act and the National Emergencies Act, he boasted, ?I have the right to do a lot of things that people don?t even know about.? The president is right. Some of the most potent emergency powers at his disposal are likely ones we can?t know about, because they are not contained in any publicly available laws. Instead, they are set forth in classified documents known as ?presidential emergency action documents.? These documents consist of draft proclamations, executive orders and proposals for legislation that can be quickly deployed to assert broad presidential authority in a range of worst-case scenarios. They are one of the government?s best-kept secrets. No presidential emergency action document has ever been released or even leaked. And it appears that none has ever been invoked. Given the real possibility that these documents could make their first appearance in the coronavirus crisis, Congress should insist on having full access to them to ensure that they are consistent with the Constitution and basic principles of democracy. Presidential emergency action documents emerged during the Eisenhower administration as a set of plans to provide for continuity of government after a Soviet nuclear attack. Over time, they were expanded to include proposed responses to other types of emergencies. As described in one declassified government memorandum , they are designed ?*to implement extraordinary presidential authority in response to extraordinary situations*.? Other government documents have revealed some of the actions that older presidential emergency action documents ? those issued up through the 1970s ? purported to authorize. These include suspension of habeas corpus by the president (not by Congress, as assigned in the Constitution), detention of United States citizens who are suspected of being ?subversives,? warrantless searches and seizures and the imposition of martial law. Some of these actions would seem unconstitutional, at least in the absence of authorization by Congress. Past presidential emergency action documents, however, have tested the line of how far presidents? constitutional authority may stretch in an emergency. For example, a Department of Justice memorandum from the Lyndon B. Johnson administration discusses a presidential emergency action document that would impose censorship on news sent abroad. The memo notes that while no ?express statutory authority? exists for such a measure, ?it can be argued that these actions would be legal in the aftermath of a devastating nuclear attack based on the president?s constitutional powers to preserve the national security.? It then recommends that the president seek ratifying legislation from Congress after issuing the orders. Much less is known about the contents of more recent presidential emergency action documents ? but we do know they exist. They undergo periodic revision to take into account new laws, conditions and concerns. The Department of Justice reviews the proposed changes for legal soundness, the Federal Emergency Management Agency plays a coordinating role and the National Security Council provides policy direction and final approval. Based on budgetary requests from the Department of Justice to Congress and other documents, it appears that presidential emergency action documents were revised in the late 1980s, in the 2000s and again starting in 2012 and continuing into the Trump administration. The latest numbers available suggest there are between 50 and 60 such documents in existence. There is no question that presidential emergency action documents could be used in a pandemic like that caused by the coronavirus. A 2006 Nuclear Regulatory Commission memorandum addressed that agency?s plan under President Bush?s 2005 ?National Strategy for Pandemic Influenza.? The concern was how to maintain operations in response to a pandemic that proved to be ?persistent, widespread, and prolonged.? The memo?s authors offered the Nuclear Regulatory Commission 14 bullet points of actions, including to ?review presidential emergency action documents? and ?select those most likely to be needed? by the commission. The most notable aspect of presidential emergency action documents might be their extreme secrecy. It?s not uncommon for the government to classify its plans or activities in the area of national security. However, even the most sensitive military operations or intelligence activities must be reported to at least some members of Congress. By contrast, we know of no evidence that the executive branch has ever consulted with Congress ? or even informed any of its members ? regarding the contents of presidential emergency action documents. That is a dangerous state of affairs. The coronavirus pandemic is fast becoming the most serious crisis to face this country since World War II. And it is happening under the watch of a president who has claimed that Article II of the Constitution gives him ?the right to do whatever I want.? It is not far-fetched to think that we might see the deployment of these documents for the first time and that they will assert presidential powers beyond those granted by Congress or recognized by the courts as flowing from the Constitution. Even in the most dire of emergencies, the president of the United States should not be able to operate free from constitutional checks and balances. The coronavirus crisis should serve as a wake-up call. Presidential emergency action documents have managed to escape democratic oversight for nearly 70 years. Congress should move quickly to remedy that omission and assert its authority to review these documents, before we all learn just how far this administration believes the president?s powers reach. *Elizabeth Goitein is a co-director and Andrew Boyle is a lawyer at the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:56:27 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 08:56:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gun shops Message-ID: Does anyone know if there are special requirements to get a license to sell guns? Gun shops. Pawn shops. Walmart. My point: if you could obtain such a license, you could presumably order guns wholesale in any quantity you wanted. Are there laws on the books to prevent this? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 11 14:19:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 07:19:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] gun shops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501d6100c$3e271910$ba754b30$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] gun shops Does anyone know if there are special requirements to get a license to sell guns? Gun shops. Pawn shops. Walmart. My point: if you could obtain such a license, you could presumably order guns wholesale in any quantity you wanted. Are there laws on the books to prevent this? bill w BillW it depends on the state. In general for handguns there is a lot of licensing and bother, but I don?t do much with those. That?s a different sport. In general in most places, long guns can be bought anywhere and are what you need for the kinds of shooting I want to do anyway. Handguns are really a different sport from rifles. Interesting point: I was travelling back east every other Wednesday for business, and for a while was arriving first flight in Newark NJ on Wednesday morning and leaving first flight Thursday AM. There was a guy working the early shift at passenger screening. Not many passengers that time of day, and we got used to seeing each other. I even struck up conversations a few times. He was the guy on duty in Newark when the bad guys came thru on 9/11. At some later time, he was in the news again when they somehow raided his house and found he owned hundreds of guns. They carefully checked and everything he owned was legal. NJ doesn?t like guns, but you can own them if you go thru the hoops, and he did. So? they brought them all back. I kept hearing the question: why does this guy need all these guns? My answer: define this term ?need? please. NJ is one of the strictest states. Someone here might know, but I think their laws are mostly about handguns rather than long guns. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 15:47:38 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:47:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] gun shops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 9:59 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Does anyone know if there are special requirements to get a license to > sell guns? Gun shops. Pawn shops. Walmart. > Yes, It requires a Federal Firearms License. My point: if you could obtain such a license, you could presumably order > guns wholesale in any quantity you wanted. > > Are there laws on the books to prevent this? > You need an FFL to buy an unlimited quantity of guns. The FFL might get you a discount but it's not automatic. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 17:18:25 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 10:18:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] gun shops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave's already answered the question, but I'll note an exception: DIY. Gunsmiths get a lot of leeway and deference. So far as I know, they can make their own guns in whatever quantity they want. Selling or giving those guns to others is where legal restrictions start to come into play. And of course, past a certain quantity, it's generally cheaper to buy the manufacturing means and raw materials than to buy the finished product. Consider the cost of a million pistols, versus the price of an equivalent weight of steel or aluminum, some tooling, a few industrial robot arms, and solar panels to power them. Of course, this is a high enough price that it rarely comes up in practice: those who believe they would gain value from having that many guns, are rarely able to think of - let alone pull off - such an approach. Also, if you're thinking of running a gun store in these times, perhaps take a clue from Walmart and sell groceries too. Perhaps canned goods and other long-lasting survivalist chow; you could probably sell hand sanitizer and masks too. Just make that over 50% (by area and by money) of your store, with guns being less than half. On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 6:58 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Does anyone know if there are special requirements to get a license to > sell guns? Gun shops. Pawn shops. Walmart. > > My point: if you could obtain such a license, you could presumably order > guns wholesale in any quantity you wanted. > > Are there laws on the books to prevent this? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 17:22:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:22:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Computers and Anyons Message-ID: In the April 10 2020 issue of the Journal Science the best evidence yet for the existence of a quasiparticle called a "Anyon" is presented. Anyon's are important because when 2 Anyon's loop around each other their quantum state is altered and so that brading can be used to encode information. Such brading would be far less susceptible to quantum decoherence than other ways of encoding information, and decoherence is the only reason we don't have practical and scalable Quantum Computers right now. Fractional statistics in anyon collisions John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 21:51:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:51:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] new neurons Message-ID: Two parts of the brain can continue growing through neurogenesis https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/neurogenesis-in-adults?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1 Good time to take up the bassoon? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 12:06:34 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:06:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> It?s not that Trump has these powers. The articles clearly state that every president since the Cold War has had them. And clearly, based on the subject matter, their contents should not be made public due to matters of national security. If the public new how we would respond to a bio-terrorism incident, people could use that knowledge to make the attack even more deadly. It?s got nothing to do with Trump. SR Ballard > On Apr 11, 2020, at 5:43 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > The following was in the April 10 2020 New York Times > ====== > Trump Has Emergency Powers We Aren?t Allowed to Know About > > By Elizabeth Goitein and Andrew Boyle > > The past few weeks have given Americans a crash course in the powers that federal, state and local governments wield during emergencies. We?ve seen businesses closed down, citizens quarantined and travel restricted. When President Trump declared emergencies on March 13 under both the Stafford Act and the National Emergencies Act, he boasted, ?I have the right to do a lot of things that people don?t even know about.? > > The president is right. Some of the most potent emergency powers at his disposal are likely ones we can?t know about, because they are not contained in any publicly available laws. Instead, they are set forth in classified documents known as ?presidential emergency action documents.? > > These documents consist of draft proclamations, executive orders and proposals for legislation that can be quickly deployed to assert broad presidential authority in a range of worst-case scenarios. They are one of the government?s best-kept secrets. No presidential emergency action document has ever been released or even leaked. And it appears that none has ever been invoked. > > Given the real possibility that these documents could make their first appearance in the coronavirus crisis, Congress should insist on having full access to them to ensure that they are consistent with the Constitution and basic principles of democracy. > > Presidential emergency action documents emerged during the Eisenhower administration as a set of plans to provide for continuity of government after a Soviet nuclear attack. Over time, they were expanded to include proposed responses to other types of emergencies. > > As described in one declassified government memorandum , they are designed ?to implement extraordinary presidential authority in response to extraordinary situations.? > > Other government documents have revealed some of the actions that older presidential emergency action documents ? those issued up through the 1970s ? purported to authorize. These include suspension of habeas corpus by the president (not by Congress, as assigned in the Constitution), detention of United States citizens who are suspected of being ?subversives,? warrantless searches and seizures and the imposition of martial law. > > Some of these actions would seem unconstitutional, at least in the absence of authorization by Congress. Past presidential emergency action documents, however, have tested the line of how far presidents? constitutional authority may stretch in an emergency. > > For example, a Department of Justice memorandum from the Lyndon B. Johnson administration discusses a presidential emergency action document that would impose censorship on news sent abroad. The memo notes that while no ?express statutory authority? exists for such a measure, ?it can be argued that these actions would be legal in the aftermath of a devastating nuclear attack based on the president?s constitutional powers to preserve the national security.? It then recommends that the president seek ratifying legislation from Congress after issuing the orders. > > Much less is known about the contents of more recent presidential emergency action documents ? but we do know they exist. They undergo periodic revision to take into account new laws, conditions and concerns. The Department of Justice reviews the proposed changes for legal soundness, the Federal Emergency Management Agency plays a coordinating role and the National Security Council provides policy direction and final approval. > > Based on budgetary requests from the Department of Justice to Congress and other documents, it appears that presidential emergency action documents were revised in the late 1980s, in the 2000s and again starting in 2012 and continuing into the Trump administration. The latest numbers available suggest there are between 50 and 60 such documents in existence. > > There is no question that presidential emergency action documents could be used in a pandemic like that caused by the coronavirus. A 2006 Nuclear Regulatory Commission memorandum addressed that agency?s plan under President Bush?s 2005 ?National Strategy for Pandemic Influenza.? The concern was how to maintain operations in response to a pandemic that proved to be ?persistent, widespread, and prolonged.? The memo?s authors offered the Nuclear Regulatory Commission 14 bullet points of actions, including to ?review presidential emergency action documents? and ?select those most likely to be needed? by the commission. > > The most notable aspect of presidential emergency action documents might be their extreme secrecy. It?s not uncommon for the government to classify its plans or activities in the area of national security. However, even the most sensitive military operations or intelligence activities must be reported to at least some members of Congress. By contrast, we know of no evidence that the executive branch has ever consulted with Congress ? or even informed any of its members ? regarding the contents of presidential emergency action documents. > > That is a dangerous state of affairs. The coronavirus pandemic is fast becoming the most serious crisis to face this country since World War II. And it is happening under the watch of a president who has claimed that Article II of the Constitution gives him ?the right to do whatever I want.? It is not far-fetched to think that we might see the deployment of these documents for the first time and that they will assert presidential powers beyond those granted by Congress or recognized by the courts as flowing from the Constitution. > > Even in the most dire of emergencies, the president of the United States should not be able to operate free from constitutional checks and balances. The coronavirus crisis should serve as a wake-up call. Presidential emergency action documents have managed to escape democratic oversight for nearly 70 years. Congress should move quickly to remedy that omission and assert its authority to review these documents, before we all learn just how far this administration believes the president?s powers reach. > > Elizabeth Goitein is a co-director and Andrew Boyle is a lawyer at the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 13:23:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 09:23:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> References: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 8:09 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *based on the subject matter, their contents should not be made public > due to matters of national security. If the public new how we would respond > to a bio-terrorism incident, people could use that knowledge to make the > attack even more deadly.* > Those documents are about 45 years old, so any science or tactical plans they may contain on how to contain a bioterrorism incident would be ridiculously out of date and technologically useless to anybody, but politics is much the same now as it was then so they could still be very useful to somebody who wants to become a dictator, and that's why the powers that be don't want the American people to know anything about them. This is a detailed plan on how a president can ignore the Constitution and get away with it. By the way, was anybody else disturbed by the recent farcical election in Wisconsin and the 5 to 4 decision by the Vichy Justices on the Supreme Court not to extend the deadline for absentee voting and what this may bode for the November 3 2020 Presidential election? > *It?s got nothing to do with Trump.* > The Commander In Chief would strongly disagree with you. On March 13 he issued a decree that started "*I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including sections 201 and 301 of the National Emergencies Act...*" Apparently he thought the authority vested in him by the Constitution were not enough. And on that very same day he said "*I have the right to do a lot of things that people don?t even know about*". He's right, and that's something I rarely say about Trump, it's absolutely true that almost nobody knows about those extraconstitutional powers, but unfortunatly I think we're going to find out. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 12 17:06:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:06:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: References: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01d610ec$ae66fe80$0b34fb80$@rainier66.com> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 8:09 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: > It?s got nothing to do with Trump. (SR Ballard) Ja. I was given an insight yesterday into what might influence this: hospital administration intentionally attributing fatalities to C-19 which were really caused by something else. it isn?t so much that anyone is intentionally inflating their C-19 numbers, but rather the policies in place encourage inflating the numbers. We know how China solved their coronavirus problem. They produced billions of home test kits which work in less than 2 minutes and cost about 11 US cents. They return about a 10% false negative rate, but their false positive rate is zero point zero zero. None of those kits have ever returned a positive result. In the USA, a test kit has a very low error rate, but they cost about 14000 bucks for the whole cycle. So? we have cases where we have presumed positive without test (one of my neighbors for instance.) Any fatality during the presumed positive period (which extends indefinitely (including those fatalities with a plausible co-morbidity factor (such a bullet through the brain))) can be counted as a corona virus fatality. This allows the hospital and coroner to bill a much richer insurance fund than the one the patient was eligible to receive free (but never bothered to apply for (a remarkably common occurrence.) This would explain why we suddenly have fewer of everything such as heart attack and stroke. Even the case where the local was fired upon by another local can qualify as a WuFlu fatality. The shooter had the sniffles last week, so she could be counted as presumed C-19 positive, she handled the bullet, transferring the virus to the projectile which infected the victim on its way through. The victim had the virus for her last three seconds of life, good enough to qualify for the insurance policy the hospital desperately needs to stay in business during the current financially-devastating dearth of patients. Result: fewer heart attacks and strokes! It?s a miracle! I don?t trust any of these numbers. I suspect China is understating and the US is overstating, not for political reasons but rather for financial motives. The invisible hand of capitalism is playing tricks on us. However? when it is all over, we can compare the overall mortality rate to previous years and get a pretty good picture of how many fatalities were really caused by C-19. China doesn?t tell how many perished, but most countries outside of there will tell. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Sun Apr 12 17:40:23 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 23:10:23 +0530 Subject: [ExI] new neurons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It was a good read. I started playing the keyboard 2 days ago as well, so this is additional motivation. I remember reading somewhere that exercising (running) for 45 minutes a day promotes neurogenesis. Any thoughts on that? &Kunvar On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 3:23 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Two parts of the brain can continue growing through neurogenesis > > > https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/neurogenesis-in-adults?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1 > > Good time to take up the bassoon? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Apr 12 17:50:52 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:50:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents Message-ID: > By the way, was anybody else disturbed by the recent > farcical election in Wisconsin Both the GOP and the Dems were gaming the WI election: https://davidblaska.com/2020/04/09/why-cant-democrats-run-an-election/ From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 17:55:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:55:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my dreams: in the next elections all of the members of Congress are replaced by independents. What we have now is just totally embarrassing. bill w On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 12:52 PM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > By the way, was anybody else disturbed by the recent > > farcical election in Wisconsin > > Both the GOP and the Dems were gaming the WI election: > https://davidblaska.com/2020/04/09/why-cant-democrats-run-an-election/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 17:57:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:57:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] new neurons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By keyboard do you mean a Clavinova or similar? I have the top of the line Yamaha and it sounds like a grand piano (or any other instrument you can think of). In fact I sold my grand piano when I bought it. You will have to Google about new neurons and running. bill w On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 12:43 PM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It was a good read. I started playing the keyboard 2 days ago as well, so > this is additional motivation. I remember reading somewhere that exercising > (running) for 45 minutes a day promotes neurogenesis. Any thoughts on that? > > &Kunvar > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 3:23 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Two parts of the brain can continue growing through neurogenesis >> >> >> https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/neurogenesis-in-adults?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1 >> >> Good time to take up the bassoon? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 12 18:33:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 11:33:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new neurons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007801d610f8$e2665760$a7330620$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] new neurons By keyboard do you mean a Clavinova or similar? I have the top of the line Yamaha and it sounds like a grand piano (or any other instrument you can think of). In fact I sold my grand piano when I bought it. bill w BillW, my comment isn?t about pianos, but you inspired it with your observation. When Kurzweil came along we could make a hell of a good sound with those electronic keyboards, which can be weighted to feel just like a grand and sound better in a way: they can be perfectly in tune. If you really go in for the expensive ones, they can even resonate nearby pitches the way piano strings do. We know how much room a grand piano takes in a house. Those electronic keyboards take up only a fraction of that space, never need tuning, and two fellers can easily move one, so they are better in that sense. Being in an area where floor space is absurdly expensive, I tend to focus on footprint. How many examples can you think of where modern technology has allowed us to pack more tightly and do so comfortably? Camera gear used to be suitcases of specialty lenses, now nearly all obsolete, with a camera in your phone the smaller than the eraser on a standard number 2 pencil. The computer has obviated the filing cabinet for the most part, and bookshelves, both bigfoot obsolete systems now. Because of improved technology, we can now pack tighter more comfortably. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 18:36:51 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:36:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: References: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Those documents are about 45 years old > John K Clark 2001 was 45 years ago? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 18:51:11 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:51:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: <001f01d610ec$ae66fe80$0b34fb80$@rainier66.com> References: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> <001f01d610ec$ae66fe80$0b34fb80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 1:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> We know how China solved their coronavirus problem. They produced > billions of home test kits which work in less than 2 minutes and cost about > 11 US cents. They return about a 10% false negative rate, but their false > positive rate is zero point zero zero. None of those kits have ever > returned a positive result. In the USA, a test kit has a very low error > rate, but they cost about 14000 bucks for the whole cycle.* Theorizing becomes ever so much easier a profession if one is allowed to generate one's own facts as needed. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:07:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:07:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] new neurons In-Reply-To: <007801d610f8$e2665760$a7330620$@rainier66.com> References: <007801d610f8$e2665760$a7330620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, April 12, 2020 10:57 AM > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new neurons > > > > By keyboard do you mean a Clavinova or similar? I have the top of the > line Yamaha and it sounds like a grand piano (or any other instrument you > can think of). In fact I sold my grand piano when I bought it. > > > > bill w > > > > > > BillW, my comment isn?t about pianos, but you inspired it with your > observation. > > > > When Kurzweil came along we could make a hell of a good sound with those > electronic keyboards, which can be weighted to feel just like a grand and > sound better in a way: they can be perfectly in tune. If you really go in > for the expensive ones, they can even resonate nearby pitches the way piano > strings do. > > > > We know how much room a grand piano takes in a house. Those electronic > keyboards take up only a fraction of that space, never need tuning, and two > fellers can easily move one, so they are better in that sense. Being in an > area where floor space is absurdly expensive, I tend to focus on footprint. > > > > How many examples can you think of where modern technology has allowed us > to pack more tightly and do so comfortably? Camera gear used to be > suitcases of specialty lenses, now nearly all obsolete, with a camera in > your phone the smaller than the eraser on a standard number 2 pencil. The > computer has obviated the filing cabinet for the most part, and > bookshelves, both bigfoot obsolete systems now. > > > > Because of improved technology, we can now pack tighter more comfortably. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:12:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:12:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] new neurons In-Reply-To: <007801d610f8$e2665760$a7330620$@rainier66.com> References: <007801d610f8$e2665760$a7330620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, the average person does not need any more camera than what is in his phone. The pros still have a big bag. When I sold my piano the buyers' tuner came over and moved the piano all by himself with little muscle involved. I watched him do it. He had a dolly that put the piano on its side.He had a rachet thing on the back of his truck. bill w On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, April 12, 2020 10:57 AM > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new neurons > > > > By keyboard do you mean a Clavinova or similar? I have the top of the > line Yamaha and it sounds like a grand piano (or any other instrument you > can think of). In fact I sold my grand piano when I bought it. > > > > bill w > > > > > > BillW, my comment isn?t about pianos, but you inspired it with your > observation. > > > > When Kurzweil came along we could make a hell of a good sound with those > electronic keyboards, which can be weighted to feel just like a grand and > sound better in a way: they can be perfectly in tune. If you really go in > for the expensive ones, they can even resonate nearby pitches the way piano > strings do. > > > > We know how much room a grand piano takes in a house. Those electronic > keyboards take up only a fraction of that space, never need tuning, and two > fellers can easily move one, so they are better in that sense. Being in an > area where floor space is absurdly expensive, I tend to focus on footprint. > > > > How many examples can you think of where modern technology has allowed us > to pack more tightly and do so comfortably? Camera gear used to be > suitcases of specialty lenses, now nearly all obsolete, with a camera in > your phone the smaller than the eraser on a standard number 2 pencil. The > computer has obviated the filing cabinet for the most part, and > bookshelves, both bigfoot obsolete systems now. > > > > Because of improved technology, we can now pack tighter more comfortably. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:16:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 15:16:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: References: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 2:44 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> *every president since the Cold War has had them.* >> >> >> > >> Those documents are about 45 years old > > *> 2001 was 45 years ago?* The cold war didn't end till 2001? Never mind it doesn't matter, even 2001 is scientifically far too old for a tactic to fight bioterrorism to be relevant; the reason those documents are being kept secret from the American people has nothing to do with science, it's because they know the people wouldn't like it and to them politics is far more important than truth. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:33:50 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 15:33:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! Message-ID: The USA has blown Italy out of the water to claim the undisputed number one position not only in the number of COVID-19 cases but in the number of deaths produced by it too with 21,668. Italy is now a distant second with 19,899 deaths. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 12 19:55:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:55:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 12:34 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! The USA has blown Italy out of the water to claim the undisputed number one position not only in the number of COVID-19 cases but in the number of deaths produced by it too with 21,668. Italy is now a distant second with 19,899 deaths. John K Clark The USA has more Covid-19 deaths than that ship where they had the early outbreak. The USA has more Covid-19 deaths than my state as well, and way more than my town. Of course Italy has suffered over five times the C-19 death rate per capita compared to the USA, but we don?t talk about per capita, for that would be politically inconvenient, ja? It suggests something is wrong with Italy: about twice the number of cases per capita but about five times the per capita mortality. We still don?t know how many deaths being called C-19 deaths are due to C-19 rather than those deaths where people have it or are presumed to have it identified as C-19 for insurance purposes. I suggest we wait until after the data is all in, then compare mortality rates compared to background. spike (?stand by for shrieky rebuttal to above?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 20:23:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 16:23:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 3:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Of course Italy has suffered over five times the C-19 death rate per > capita compared to the USA, but we don?t talk about per capita,* The race between Italy and the US is far from over and the death rate for Italy is only doubling every 3 weeks but for the US it's every 5 days. And of course the US has suffered about 20 times the C-19 death rate per capita as compared to China despite the fact that is where it all started, and its lead over both countries is growing FAST. Oh and that number of 21,668 deaths in the US that I quoted way back in the olden days of 35 minutes ago is now out of date, the new number as of 20:11 GMT is that C-19 has produced 21,952 dead bodies in the US. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 12 20:55:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:55:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 1:23 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] The USA is number one! On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 3:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Of course Italy has suffered over five times the C-19 death rate per capita compared to the USA, but we don?t talk about per capita, >?The race between Italy and the US is far from over? The race? >?and the death rate for Italy is only doubling every 3 weeks but for the US it's every 5 days. And of course the US has suffered about 20 times the C-19 death rate per capita as compared to China? It?s a miracle! Or? not. >?Oh and that number of 21,668 deaths in the US that I quoted way back in the olden days of 35 minutes ago is now out of date, the new number as of 20:11 GMT is that C-19 has produced 21,952 dead bodies in the US. ?John K Clark John, please review what you wrote. I don?t think you intended to, but it comes across as if you are celebrating. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 21:03:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 17:03:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 4:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I don?t think you intended to, but it comes across as if you are > celebrating.* My intention was to get people to recognize the quality of leadership the US has at the most dangerous time in any of our lifetimes, but it looks like I failed. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 12 21:24:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:24:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The USA is number one! On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 4:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > I don?t think you intended to, but it comes across as if you are celebrating. My intention was to get people to recognize the quality of leadership the US has at the most dangerous time in any of our lifetimes, but it looks like I failed. John K Clark If you need to keep citing death rates from a flu that originated in China to somehow promote your political views, that is not only a fail, it is an epic fail. If you have a cause, linking it to Covid-19 is definitely is harming that view. If you must endorse dubious numbers offered by a government which chose to put the entire planet in peril by covering up the contagion and threatening those who would warn the public, then that is an epic fail. Covid-19 is a disease, not a political talking point. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 21:37:52 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 17:37:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 5:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> If you need to keep citing death rates from a flu that originated in > China to somehow promote your political views, that is not only a fail, it > is an epic fail.* > I can believe China could be somewhat fudging its death numbers, but I can not believe it is doing so by a factor of 20. > *Covid-19 is a disease, not a political talking point.* > Yes, and that's why I disagreed with He Who Must Not Be Named when he said Covid-19 was a Democratic hoax dreamed up by liberals after the Ukraine impeachment stuff failed to get rid of him. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 21:45:10 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:45:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 2:40 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 5:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> *> If you need to keep citing death rates from a flu that originated in >> China to somehow promote your political views, that is not only a fail, it >> is an epic fail.* >> > > I can believe China could be somewhat fudging its death numbers, but I can > not believe it is doing so by a factor of 20. > You completely missed what Spike said. Also, why not? It is within China's power to say it has completely eradicated the coronavirus within its borders, and that all the deaths it is experiencing are due to other causes - or even to claim that death has taken a holiday within China because it is so busy elsewhere. Truth is mostly disconnected from their willingness to make whatever claims they think make them look better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 12 21:55:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:55:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001701d61115$1e735a70$5b5a0f50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The USA is number one! On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 5:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > If you need to keep citing death rates from a flu that originated in China to somehow promote your political views, that is not only a fail, it is an epic fail. I can believe China could be somewhat fudging its death numbers, but I can not believe it is doing so by a factor of 20? If it makes you feel any better, I don?t believe the factor of 20 either. I think it is probably more like a factor of 50. After this year is over, we can look at the death rates by country, take the delta of this year vs a five year average and estimate that excess as the real Covid-19 numbers. We can easily see how US numbers can be inflated if desperate hospitals are furloughing workers because of light patient load and the availability of federal funding if the patient is C-19 positive. Of course that is going to influence the numbers. > Covid-19 is a disease, not a political talking point. Yes, and that's why I disagreed with He Who Must Not Be Named when he said Covid-19 was a Democratic hoax dreamed up by liberals after the Ukraine impeachment stuff failed to get rid of him. John K Clark But he didn?t say that: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/ The alleged hoax remark was made four weeks after restrictions were put in place for travel from China. Those restrictions are not consistent with a belief that the virus is a hoax. Covid-19 is a disease, not a political talking point. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 21:59:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 17:59:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 5:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Also, why not? It is within China's power to say it has completely > eradicated the coronavirus within its borders, and that all the deaths it > is experiencing are due to other causes - or even to claim that death has > taken a holiday* > China has the power to say whatever it wants but it is not omnipotent, if 20 times as many people are dying from the virus than what they say and they reopen their economy then that discrepancy between fact and fiction will become very VERY obvious to the entire world almost immediately because truth is more important than public relations and nature can not be fooled. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 22:05:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 18:05:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <001701d61115$1e735a70$5b5a0f50$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <001701d61115$1e735a70$5b5a0f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 5:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If it makes you feel any better, I don?t believe the factor of 20 > either. I think it is probably more like a factor of 50.* Well Spike there is not much I can say to that, if one doesn't come to a belief through logic nobody can destroy it through logic. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 22:21:03 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 15:21:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 3:03 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 5:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> *> Also, why not? It is within China's power to say it has completely >> eradicated the coronavirus within its borders, and that all the deaths it >> is experiencing are due to other causes - or even to claim that death has >> taken a holiday* >> > > China has the power to say whatever it wants but it is not omnipotent, if > 20 times as many people are dying from the virus than what they say and > they reopen their economy then that discrepancy between fact and fiction > will become very VERY obvious to the entire world almost immediately > because truth is more important than public relations and nature can not be > fooled. > Actually, to China, public relations is more important than truth. Has been for ages, apparently for millennia. Their history has been, in part, about a civilization stubbornly unwilling to acknowledge the existence, let alone the importance, of objective, verifiable truth. (Individuals have been willing. In recent times when this has become more feasible, many such individuals wound up leaving, for places more appreciative of their point of view.) https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/02/08/803766743/critics-say-china-has-suppressed-and-censored-information-in-coronavirus-outbrea lists some of the evidence, but that hasn't stopped China from just claiming whatever. So I can very easily believe that China's numbers bear zero relation to the truth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 22:25:52 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 15:25:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! Message-ID: wrote: snip > John, please review what you wrote. I don?t think you intended to, but it comes across as if you are celebrating. Humor Spike. Keith PS. On the other hand, it does show the relative effectiveness of our government vs the Chinese. From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 12 22:35:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 15:35:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003801d6111a$abc9f690$035de3b0$@rainier66.com> Actually, to China, public relations is more important than truth? https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/02/08/803766743/critics-say-china-has-suppressed-and-censored-information-in-coronavirus-outbrea lists some of the evidence, but that hasn't stopped China from just claiming whatever? Adrian >From the article: Those restrictions were put to the test on Friday after the death of Dr. Li Wenliang, one of the eight whistleblowers reprimanded by police for warning others about a mysterious pneumonialike disease in December. Less than 90 minutes after his death on Friday morning, the hashtag "I want freedom of speech" was trending on Weibo, a popular Chinese blogging site, with nearly 2 million posts. The posts were gone by sunrise? It?s 5 am in China right now, but many people did not sleep tonight ? hashtag ?I want freedom of speech? started to trend on Weibo from 1 am and now has nearly 2 million views. pic.twitter.com/CA6lqy4ey2 ? Muyi Xiao (@muyixiao) February 6, 2020 Thanks for that reminder Adrian. The Chinese do not have freedom of speech. That which we take for granted is a fond hope for them, a dream. The government controls the message there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 22:43:50 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 18:43:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a big leap of faith to take anything coming out of the CCP as fact. The numbers out of China should be taken with a grain of salt. On Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 6:28 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > wrote: > > snip > > > John, please review what you wrote. I don?t think you intended to, but > it comes across as if you are celebrating. > > Humor Spike. > > Keith > > PS. On the other hand, it does show the relative effectiveness of our > government vs the Chinese. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Mon Apr 13 10:17:35 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:47:35 +0530 Subject: [ExI] new neurons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Haha yes, mine is one from Casio, and since I have just started learning, I didn't invest much for my first keyboard. How long have you been playing piano? &Kunvar On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 11:35 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > By keyboard do you mean a Clavinova or similar? I have the top of the > line Yamaha and it sounds like a grand piano (or any other instrument you > can think of). In fact I sold my grand piano when I bought it. > > You will have to Google about new neurons and running. > > bill w > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 12:43 PM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It was a good read. I started playing the keyboard 2 days ago as well, so >> this is additional motivation. I remember reading somewhere that exercising >> (running) for 45 minutes a day promotes neurogenesis. Any thoughts on that? >> >> &Kunvar >> >> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 3:23 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Two parts of the brain can continue growing through neurogenesis >>> >>> >>> https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/neurogenesis-in-adults?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1 >>> >>> Good time to take up the bassoon? >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Mon Apr 13 10:21:40 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:51:40 +0530 Subject: [ExI] new neurons In-Reply-To: <007801d610f8$e2665760$a7330620$@rainier66.com> References: <007801d610f8$e2665760$a7330620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > Because of improved technology, we can now pack tighter more comfortably. Surely, but it may not be better in all cases. I own a kindle but I still prefer reading on physical books (except when I'm traveling or short on space or a there's a huge price difference). We can use electronic music and tune it to sound like a piano but that is not why we play the piano always. For some, it may be about being able to move their fingers over the keys, feeling it, being able to enter a flow experience, etc. &Kunvar. On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, April 12, 2020 10:57 AM > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new neurons > > > > By keyboard do you mean a Clavinova or similar? I have the top of the > line Yamaha and it sounds like a grand piano (or any other instrument you > can think of). In fact I sold my grand piano when I bought it. > > > > bill w > > > > > > BillW, my comment isn?t about pianos, but you inspired it with your > observation. > > > > When Kurzweil came along we could make a hell of a good sound with those > electronic keyboards, which can be weighted to feel just like a grand and > sound better in a way: they can be perfectly in tune. If you really go in > for the expensive ones, they can even resonate nearby pitches the way piano > strings do. > > > > We know how much room a grand piano takes in a house. Those electronic > keyboards take up only a fraction of that space, never need tuning, and two > fellers can easily move one, so they are better in that sense. Being in an > area where floor space is absurdly expensive, I tend to focus on footprint. > > > > How many examples can you think of where modern technology has allowed us > to pack more tightly and do so comfortably? Camera gear used to be > suitcases of specialty lenses, now nearly all obsolete, with a camera in > your phone the smaller than the eraser on a standard number 2 pencil. The > computer has obviated the filing cabinet for the most part, and > bookshelves, both bigfoot obsolete systems now. > > > > Because of improved technology, we can now pack tighter more comfortably. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 11:28:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 07:28:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 6:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Actually, to China, public relations is more important than truth.* If that is what's happening in this case and happening to a factor of 20 (much less to a factor of 50 as Spike claims) then, as I've said before, that fact will become very obvious even to a blind man in a fog bank the minute China reopens its economy and tries to get back to business as usual. And we both know that's not going to happen. Reformulating facts to fit theories rather than reformulating theories to fit the facts is the very reason the US's response to the virus was so dismally poor. And rot starts at the head so the theory that Trump is doing a good job and the US's response was more effective than China's simply isn't scientifically viable. And no, that doesn't mean I'm a communist, it means I respect the scientific method more than any political idiot-ology. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 11:51:02 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 07:51:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Maybe things are getting better in the US Message-ID: For the last 3 days the number of new COVID-19 deaths in the US has declined, from 33,752 to 27,421, and the number of deaths from it has declined from 2035 to 1528. Let's hope it's part of a long term trend and not just a blip. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 13:52:42 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:52:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Maybe things are getting better in the US In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3AC6BD8D-0862-4C1B-8DCC-F67854FD6290@gmail.com> > number of new COVID-19 deaths in the US has declined, from 33,752 to 27,421, Infections SR Ballard > On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:51 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > For the last 3 days the number of new COVID-19 deaths in the US has declined, from 33,752 to 27,421, and the number of deaths from it has declined from 2035 to 1528. Let's hope it's part of a long term trend and not just a blip. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 14:00:56 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:00:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: References: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> Message-ID: <298CA410-42B3-493A-9911-1367C8C83EC7@gmail.com> Did you read your own article? ?Based on budgetary requests from the Department of Justice to Congress and other documents, it appears that presidential emergency action documents were revised in the late 1980s, in the 2000s and again starting in 2012 and continuing into the Trump administration. The latest numbers available suggest there are between 50 and 60 such documents in existence.? So they are update probably every 10 years. > even 2001 is scientifically far too old for a tactic to fight bioterrorism I find it difficult to believe that our governmental assets and mobilization strategies would change so violently in a 10 year period as to become completely irrelevant. This agency contacts that agency. That phone tree is activated. The emergency declaration is signed. Congress is informed in this manner. We use this bunker here. We close all blast doors on mountain bases. We contact these allies in this order. The other team is activated. Seems like it wouldn?t change dramatically over ten years, and the emergency power declarations likely wouldn?t either. SR Ballard > The cold war didn't end till 2001? Never mind it doesn't matter, even 2001 is scientifically far too old for a tactic to fight bioterrorism to be relevant; the reason those documents are being kept secret from the American people has nothing to do with science, it's because they know the people wouldn't like it and to them politics is far more important than truth. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 13 14:20:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 07:20:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:29 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] The USA is number one! On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 6:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? Actually, to China, public relations is more important than truth. >?If that is what's happening in this case and happening to a factor of 20 (much less to a factor of 50 as Spike claims) then, as I've said before, that fact will become very obvious even to a blind man in a fog bank the minute China reopens its economy and tries to get back to business as usual. And we both know that's not going to happen. Reformulating facts to fit theories rather than reformulating theories to fit the facts is the very reason the US's response to the virus was so dismally poor. And rot starts at the head so the theory that Trump is doing a good job and the US's response was more effective than China's simply isn't scientifically viable. And no, that doesn't mean I'm a communist, it means I respect the scientific method more than any political idiot-ology. ? John K Clark How would it be obvious if the Chinese understated their numbers by a factor of 50? And why is the comparison between a communist dictator and a US president relevant? A communist dictator can do anything he wants. POTUS has nowhere near the power (which is a good thing.) The real power of POTUS has been declining for the first time in decades (another good thing) because of rigorous scrutiny and increased avenues to leak information.) China doesn?t have freedom of speech or free press. A Chinese citizen can face execution for something they posted on Twitter. Can you imagine being hauled off to prison and sitting there while the authorities review everything you have posted on ExI? It isn?t that way here, because we have first amendment rights and second amendment protections of first amendment rights. I love America. What a great country! It?s a shining beacon on the hill, beckoning the world to greater personal freedom. Set your people free, Mr. Xi. Let them speak their minds and hearts. Make it the law of the land. We will sell them the guns to make sure you never change your totalitarian mind. Back to question 1: imagine China understated its cases by a factor of 50 and they have not 83k but rather 4mega cases. The fatality rate is about 1 percent, so about 40k deaths in a tightly-controlled country of 1.4 billion. That wouldn?t show up in the noise out of a sound-proof room. >?For the last 3 days the number of new COVID-19 deaths in the US has declined, from 33,752 to 27,421 I expected the total number of deaths to decline once we realize they were intentionally overcounted: : DR. DEBORAH BIRX: So, I think in this country we've taken a very liberal approach to mortality. And I think the reporting here has been pretty straightforward over the last five to six weeks. Prior to that when there wasn't testing in January and February that's a very different situation and unknown. There are other countries that if you had a preexisting condition and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU and then have a heart or kidney problem some countries are recording as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death. Right now we are still recording it and we will I mean the great thing about having forms that come in and a form that has the ability to market as COVID-19 infection the intent is right now that those if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that as a COVID-19 death. Dying with Covid-19 is counted as dying of Covid-19 in the US, because that allows the hospital to tap into a deeper insurance pool. This makes perfect sense to do this, it doesn?t requires any conspiracy, it isn?t political, it is perfectly understandable economic pressure. Hospitals are under enormous economic pressure as their customer load is way down: elective surgery people are deciding they really don?t need a butt-lift all that badly. Hospitals are suffering from low customer load. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 14:37:47 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:37:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > ... And why is the comparison between a communist dictator and a US > president relevant? A communist dictator can do anything he wants. POTUS > has nowhere near the power (which is a good thing.) The real power of > POTUS has been declining for the first time in decades (another good thing) > because of rigorous scrutiny and increased avenues to leak information.) > POTUS' power is only limited theoretically. The current POTUS has exceeded those limits pretty much with impunity. He's subject to lots of scrutiny but only the courts have done anything to curtail his overreach. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 13 14:38:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 07:38:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009d01d611a1$24be33a0$6e3a9ae0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ubject: RE: [ExI] The USA is number one! From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:29 AM To: ExI chat list > Cc: John Clark > Subject: Re: [ExI] The USA is number one! On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 6:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? Actually, to China, public relations is more important than truth. >?If that is what's happening in this case and happening to a factor of 20 (much less to a factor of 50 as Spike claims) then, as I've said before, that fact will become very obvious even to a blind man in a fog bank the minute China reopens its economy and tries to get back to business as usual? https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dr-fauci-well-take-a-look-at-chinas-handling-of-coronavirus-when-this-is-all-over.661077/ "[W]hen we finally did get the virus here, it [became] clear that when we started looking [at what] was going on, [that] was misinformation right from the beginning. So whose ever fault that was, you know, we're gonna go back and take a look at that when this is all over. But clearly, it was not the right information that was given to us." Anthony Fauci "When it became clear that not only is it transmitted efficiently from human to human, but that it was very, very contagious in the sense of easily transmittable, and it also had a high degree of morbidity and mortality. At that point, it became very clear that we were in for a problem because we were getting travel cases from China. And even though we cut off the Chinese pretty quickly, once it seeded in this country, then it does what any highly transmissible virus does. So there's nothing inconsistent about the information we had." Anthony Fauci China was still claiming no human to human transmission by the end of December. They had to know otherwise weeks earlier. They let it spread across the globe. This pandemic is a crime against humanity. I don?t trust anything China is claiming and I won?t believe what they publish later. I do not and will not believe our press either. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 15:45:18 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:45:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> How would it be obvious if the Chinese understated their numbers by a > factor of 50?* > Because if things were 50 times worse in China than what they claim that would mean that even when everybody was under strict quarantine, much stricter than anything seen in the west, the epidemic would still be raging at a rate not seen since medieval times, so when they stop the quarantine to restart their economy the epidemic would very quickly escalate to Stephen King levels never seen before on this planet, and their huge economy would be permanently destroyed. The idea you could keep something that astronomically huge secret from the world is absolutely ridiculous > > A communist dictator can do anything he wants. > No he can not. A communist dictator like Mr. Xi does not have the power to bend the laws of nature and reality to his wishes, and neither does a wannabe Fascist dictator like He Who Must Not Be Named. > *> POTUS has nowhere near the power* > But he does have the power to tell the truth if he wishes to exercise that power, unfortunatly the current POTUS does not have that wish. You have challenged my assertion in a previous post that he has engaged in wishful thinking and happy talk with regard to the virus, so here is a timeline of some of the potentially deadly misinformation and flat out lies he has spewed out in just the last few months. On January 22 2020 He Who Must Not Be Named was asked "*Are there worries about a pandemic at this point?*" his answer was: *?No. Not at all. And we have it totally under control. It?s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It?s going to be just fine.?* On January 24 he said: *?It will all work out well.?* On January 30 he said: *?We have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment ? five. And those people are all recuperating successfully.?* On January 31 he said: *?We pretty much shut it down coming in from China. We have a tremendous relationship with China, which is a very positive thing. Getting along with China, getting along with Russia, getting along with these countries.?* On February 10 he said: *?Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away. We?re in great shape though. We have 12 cases ? 11 cases, and many of them are in good shape now."* On February 19 he said: *?I think the numbers are going to get progressively better as we go along.?* On February 23 he said: *?We had 12, at one point. And now they?ve gotten very much better. Many of them are fully recovered. We have it very much under control in this country."* On February 24 he said: *"The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!"* On February 26 he said: *?We?re going down, not up. We?re going very substantially down, not up. **So we?re at the low level. As they get better, we take them off the list, so that we?re going to be pretty soon at only five people. And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. So we?ve had very good luck. **And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that?s a pretty good job we?ve done."* On February 27 he said: *?It?s going to disappear. One day ? it?s like a miracle ? it will disappear.* On February 29 he said: *"A vaccine would be available very quickly, very rapidly. And everything is under control. Everything is really under control.* On March 2 he said: *"We?re talking about a much smaller range of deaths than from the flu. It?s very mild."* On March 4 he said: *"**We have a very small number of people in this country infected. We have a big country. We?re talking about very small numbers in the United States.?* On March 6 he said: *?Anybody that wants a test can get a test. **I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it. Every one of these doctors said, ?How do you know so much about this?? Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for president."* On March 7 he said: *"**I?m not concerned at all."* On March 10 he said: *?We?re prepared, and we?re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.?* And in an attempt to rewrite history 1984 style on March 17 he said: *?I've always known this is a ? this is a real ? this is a pandemic. I?ve felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic. All you had to do is look at other countries, I've always viewed it as very serious."* John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 13 16:04:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:04:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d501d611ad$36230f10$a2692d30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >>? A communist dictator can do anything he wants. >?No he can not. A communist dictator like Mr. Xi does not have the power to bend the laws of nature and reality to his wishes, and neither does a wannabe Fascist dictator like He Who Must Not Be Named? Mr. Xi controls the press. He can have people executed for posting things he doesn?t like. We don?t know what is going on in China, and may never know what happened. I don?t see how we could ever know if most of their population caught C-19 and 1% died. Of course their productivity would drop, but so is everyone else?s. > POTUS has nowhere near the power But he does have the power to tell the truth if he wishes ?John K Clark OK so don?t listen to him. Wasn?t that easy John? That?s the strategy I take. The information coming of DC is sound and fury, signifying nothing. I don?t listen to the daily briefings and don?t know what is said there. I don?t intend to take it up now. Governments cannot stop this. No government successfully stopped it. International travelers carried C-19 everywhere on the globe before they knew what it was. Over time, infection rates and death rates converge to similar numbers, regardless of government actions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:10:02 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:10:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 11:47 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *> How would it be obvious if the Chinese understated their numbers by a >> factor of 50?* >> > > Because if things were 50 times worse in China than what they claim that > would mean that even when everybody was under strict quarantine, much > stricter than anything seen in the west, the epidemic would still be raging > at a rate not seen since medieval times, so when they stop the quarantine > to restart their economy the epidemic would very quickly escalate to > Stephen King levels never seen before on this planet, and their huge > economy would be permanently destroyed. The idea you could keep something > that astronomically huge secret from the world is absolutely ridiculous > > >> >> So are you saying you believe the Chinese numbers in a city of 11 million? You truly believe that China has ~89K total cases despite THEIR mishandling of the initial crisis and attempted cover ups (that I'll point out again have cost Western lives). Not only did they allow travel out of country knowing what it would mean, they also covered up human to human transmission until it was impossible to hide any longer. If you want to be pissed at someone, blame the CCP for this mess. From the VERY beginning, they were bad actors and the WHO were willing participants in their deception. US deaths will likely total around ~60K based on current estimates. While anyone personally impacted is the victim of a terrible tragedy, those numbers still add up to a bad flu season, like it or not, and we should be asking ourselves how much economic damage we are going to tolerate in flattening the curve, and how many liberties we are willing to lose. Once the healthcare system is better prepared to deal with this, we should be letting this thing burn itself out in the general population with those at highest risk taking more extraordinary steps to remain safe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:11:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:11:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Maybe things are getting better in the US In-Reply-To: <3AC6BD8D-0862-4C1B-8DCC-F67854FD6290@gmail.com> References: <3AC6BD8D-0862-4C1B-8DCC-F67854FD6290@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 9:55 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> number of new COVID-19 deaths in the US has declined, from 33,752 to > 27,421, > > > >Infections > You are correct. Sorry for the error. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 13 16:21:36 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:21:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <009d01d611a1$24be33a0$6e3a9ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> <009d01d611a1$24be33a0$6e3a9ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010501d611af$9ae0efb0$d0a2cf10$@rainier66.com> Sweden is the world?s mine canary: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/30/sweden-coronavirus-approach-is-very-different-from-the-rest-of-europe.html They didn?t shut down the borders or their schools or much of anything. Here are their numbers: https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa Notice there are no political motives at play that I can see, no power grabs, no economic incentives at work, no celebrating death, of if so I can?t see why any of that would apply. I don?t know what the heck is a sjukdomfall is, but by context I am guessing ?per dag? means ?by day? so a sjukdomsfall is perhaps a new case of C-19. Leave it to those ballsy Vikings to go ahead and run this experiment. Somebody had to do it, ja? I can?t find similar data for Finland and Norway, but that?s what we really need here: a direct comparison between those three guys. If Sweden is telling the truth, this is good news indeed. Perhaps we really don?t need to shut down our economy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:28:54 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:28:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] new neurons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh about 70 years, but don't take that as how well I can play. I am extremely fast but error-prone and most of all, memorize poorly. I have not played a Casio in many years, but think probably that the touch won't be much like a real piano - more like an organ, I suspect. Practice, practice, practice. bill w On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:21 AM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Haha yes, mine is one from Casio, and since I have just started learning, > I didn't invest much for my first keyboard. How long have you been > playing piano? > > &Kunvar > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 11:35 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> By keyboard do you mean a Clavinova or similar? I have the top of the >> line Yamaha and it sounds like a grand piano (or any other instrument you >> can think of). In fact I sold my grand piano when I bought it. >> >> You will have to Google about new neurons and running. >> >> bill w >> >> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 12:43 PM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> It was a good read. I started playing the keyboard 2 days ago as well, >>> so this is additional motivation. I remember reading somewhere that >>> exercising (running) for 45 minutes a day promotes neurogenesis. Any >>> thoughts on that? >>> >>> &Kunvar >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 3:23 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Two parts of the brain can continue growing through neurogenesis >>>> >>>> >>>> https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/neurogenesis-in-adults?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1 >>>> >>>> Good time to take up the bassoon? >>>> >>>> bill w >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:30:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:30:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] new neurons In-Reply-To: References: <007801d610f8$e2665760$a7330620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Other than practice the key to playing the piano is how you use your thumb. I highly recommend playing scales and that will teach you how to use it by turning it under. bill w On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:29 AM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Because of improved technology, we can now pack tighter more comfortably. > > > Surely, but it may not be better in all cases. I own a kindle but I still > prefer reading on physical books (except when I'm traveling or short on > space or a there's a huge price difference). > > We can use electronic music and tune it to sound like a piano but that is > not why we play the piano always. For some, it may be about being able to > move their fingers over the keys, feeling it, being able to enter a flow > experience, etc. > > &Kunvar. > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> *Sent:* Sunday, April 12, 2020 10:57 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new neurons >> >> >> >> By keyboard do you mean a Clavinova or similar? I have the top of the >> line Yamaha and it sounds like a grand piano (or any other instrument you >> can think of). In fact I sold my grand piano when I bought it. >> >> >> >> bill w >> >> >> >> >> >> BillW, my comment isn?t about pianos, but you inspired it with your >> observation. >> >> >> >> When Kurzweil came along we could make a hell of a good sound with those >> electronic keyboards, which can be weighted to feel just like a grand and >> sound better in a way: they can be perfectly in tune. If you really go in >> for the expensive ones, they can even resonate nearby pitches the way piano >> strings do. >> >> >> >> We know how much room a grand piano takes in a house. Those electronic >> keyboards take up only a fraction of that space, never need tuning, and two >> fellers can easily move one, so they are better in that sense. Being in an >> area where floor space is absurdly expensive, I tend to focus on footprint. >> >> >> >> How many examples can you think of where modern technology has allowed us >> to pack more tightly and do so comfortably? Camera gear used to be >> suitcases of specialty lenses, now nearly all obsolete, with a camera in >> your phone the smaller than the eraser on a standard number 2 pencil. The >> computer has obviated the filing cabinet for the most part, and >> bookshelves, both bigfoot obsolete systems now. >> >> >> >> Because of improved technology, we can now pack tighter more comfortably. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:33:24 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:33:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: <298CA410-42B3-493A-9911-1367C8C83EC7@gmail.com> References: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> <298CA410-42B3-493A-9911-1367C8C83EC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:04 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I find it difficult to believe that our governmental assets and > mobilization strategies would change so violently in a 10 year period as to > become completely irrelevant. * Given the huge advance in biological knowledge I find it remarkably easy to believe a plan to stop bioterrorism that was 10 years old would be utterly useless. > *This agency contacts that agency. That phone tree is activated. * I'll be damned if I know why knowledge of a phone tree would help a terrorist spread a pandemic faster, but I find it very easy to understand why the powers that be wouldn't want certain people to know about the extraconstitutional stuff mentioned in those documents, and it's not terrorists they're worried about it's the American people, they don't want them to know those embarrassing details. > > *The emergency declaration is signed. Congress is informed in this > manner. We use this bunker here. We close all blast doors on mountain > bases. We contact these allies in this order. The other team is activated.* Those decisions are pretty obvious, a terrorist could figure them out on his own if he thought it was worth his time, although I can't imagine why he would. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:54:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:54:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:13 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: if things were 50 times worse in China than what they claim that would mean >> that even when everybody was under strict quarantine, much stricter than >> anything seen in the west, the epidemic would still be raging at a rate not >> seen since medieval times, so when they stop the quarantine to restart >> their economy the epidemic would very quickly escalate to Stephen King >> levels never seen before on this planet, and their huge economy would be >> permanently destroyed. The idea you could keep something that >> astronomically huge secret from the world is absolutely ridiculous >> > > > *You truly believe that China has ~89K total cases despite THEIR > mishandling of the initial crisis and attempted cover ups* > The Chinese shamefully tried to cover up and minimize things in the early days so the real numbers may be higher than that, but if they were 50 times higher as Spike says, 50 times higher even with the strictest quarantine in the world, then when they went back to normal, opened up and tried to restart the economy, there would be a biological supernova and well..., you tell me how they could keep a billion or so deaths and zero exports a secret. They're totalitarians not omnipotent Gods. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 17:03:48 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:03:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <010501d611af$9ae0efb0$d0a2cf10$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> <009d01d611a1$24be33a0$6e3a9ae0$@rainier66.com> <010501d611af$9ae0efb0$d0a2cf10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/30/sweden-coronavirus-approach-is-very-different-from-the-rest-of-europe.html > That article is long out of date. It says Sweden had 110 deaths but that was on March 30, today it has 919 deaths and its death rate is doubling every 5 days. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 13 17:13:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:13:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015801d611b6$c93a0070$5bae0150$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?The Chinese shamefully tried to cover up and minimize things in the early days so the real numbers may be higher than that, but if they were 50 times higher as Spike says, 50 times higher even with the strictest quarantine in the world, then when they went back to normal, opened up and tried to restart the economy, there would be a biological supernova and well..., you tell me how they could keep a billion or so deaths and zero exports a secret. They're totalitarians not omnipotent Gods. John K Clark A factor of 50 under-reporting by China would be about 4 million cases with about 40k deaths. We would scarcely notice that in a country of 1.4 billion people, about 3 deaths per million proles. If they have a huge new outbreak after they restart their economy, then we might find most people don?t suffer much or not at all, others perish. Time will tell, but China has a manufacturing economy, so they don?t really have the option of staying closed very long. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 17:12:28 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:12:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John- I'm not sure that your assertion is actually ironclad. Let's suppose they were 50 times higher. As Spike pointed out, that would assume roughly 4,450,000 infected, many of them asymptomatic based on numbers out of Iceland. This would imply somewhere around ~50K deaths give or take depending on which IFR you are assuming. It is certainly within the CCP's abilities to cover up the difference between the real death number and the reported one if the numbers above held true. Their aggressive quarantine would likely have led to the same pattern of spread we're seeing in Italy and Spain where extreme social distancing is pointing to CV burning out there. Both are over the hump based on current data. I'm not suggesting they were entirely unsuccessful with containing it, just that it is extremely likely the real numbers during containment were WAY higher than reported before it was burned out for the most part. On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 1:01 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:13 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > if things were 50 times worse in China than what they claim that would >>> mean that even when everybody was under strict quarantine, much stricter >>> than anything seen in the west, the epidemic would still be raging at a >>> rate not seen since medieval times, so when they stop the quarantine to >>> restart their economy the epidemic would very quickly escalate to Stephen >>> King levels never seen before on this planet, and their huge economy >>> would be permanently destroyed. The idea you could keep something that >>> astronomically huge secret from the world is absolutely ridiculous >>> >> >> > > *You truly believe that China has ~89K total cases despite THEIR >> mishandling of the initial crisis and attempted cover ups* >> > > The Chinese shamefully tried to cover up and minimize things in the early > days so the real numbers may be higher than that, but if they were 50 times > higher as Spike says, 50 times higher even with the strictest quarantine in > the world, then when they went back to normal, opened up and tried to > restart the economy, there would be a biological supernova and well..., you > tell me how they could keep a billion or so deaths and zero exports a > secret. They're totalitarians not omnipotent Gods. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 13 17:16:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:16:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <015801d611b6$c93a0070$5bae0150$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> <015801d611b6$c93a0070$5bae0150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017d01d611b7$3d4333b0$b7c99b10$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >? We would scarcely notice that in a country of 1.4 billion people, about 3 deaths per million proles? spike 30 deaths per million, sheesh even I can?t do math anymore. If that billioneh who spent 500 million on political ads would have just given me the million dollars, I wouldn?t need to worry about it. sheesh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 17:16:08 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:16:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:13 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > US deaths will likely total around ~60K based on current estimates. While > anyone personally impacted is the victim of a terrible tragedy, those > numbers still add up to a bad flu season, like it or not, and we should be > asking ourselves how much economic damage we are going to tolerate in > flattening the curve, and how many liberties we are willing to lose. > Whatever the tally, it's likely lower than it would have been without the shutdowns and social distancing. And lacking a crystal ball, how could we know at the beginning the cost/benefit of various preventive actions? Flu is a known quantity. We have vaccines. We know what it can do and we try to minimize it. C-19 was an unknown--and still is, for the most part. Once the healthcare system is better prepared to deal with this, we should > be letting this thing burn itself out in the general population with those > at highest risk taking more extraordinary steps to remain safe. > There are a LOT of lessons to be learned from this. Let's hope we learn some of them. Former list member Robin Hanson has been a big proponent of letting volunteers catch C-19 under controlled circumstances and isolated until they're recovered, like variolation was done for smallpox before there was a vaccine. Having plans for that in place *before* an outbreak could save many lives in the next pandemic. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:40:14 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:40:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Oh my god, another one of these fucking threads -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:43:14 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:43:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 14:40 Will Steinberg wrote: > Oh my god, another one of these fucking threads > At this point I think it should be mandatory to mark political threads. I guess it's obvious from the title but I was thinking more like a 'Scarlet Letter' kind of thing. Like how about you have to post a big [T] for Talking Tirelessly Too much about Trump > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:44:32 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:44:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: <298CA410-42B3-493A-9911-1367C8C83EC7@gmail.com> References: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> <298CA410-42B3-493A-9911-1367C8C83EC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 10:03 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Did you read your own article? > Probably not lol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:45:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:45:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] nyt Putin Message-ID: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/science/putin-russia-disinformation-health-coronavirus.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:48:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:48:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: will wrote Oh my god, another one of these fucking threads My feelings exactly. If I want to know death tolls I'll find out for myself. From now on I will delete these without reading them. Too morbid for me. bill w On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 1:42 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Oh my god, another one of these fucking threads > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Apr 13 19:21:37 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:21:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: References: <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: But isn't that the point? To get everyone wound up and upset? Clickbait? Learned from the News Media, no doubt. :( One is tempted to go "no email" but then there would be some wonderful stuff posted and I'd miss it all. :( Regards, MB On Mon, April 13, 2020 14:48, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > will wrote Oh my god, another one of these fucking threads > My feelings exactly. If I want to know death tolls I'll find out for > myself. From now on I will delete these without reading them. Too morbid > for me. bill w > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 1:42 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Oh my god, another one of these fucking threads >> _______________________________________________ >> From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 19:56:51 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:56:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Presidential emergency action documents In-Reply-To: References: <44BD8B86-8DCA-44A0-8248-AD8D6DB48057@gmail.com> <298CA410-42B3-493A-9911-1367C8C83EC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 3:03 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 10:03 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> Did you read your own article? >> > > > Probably not lol > Well, I sure as hell didn't read all these documents and I'd bet my life you won't either: Presidential Emergency Action Documents John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 13 20:02:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:02:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] direct comparison, was: RE: The USA is number one! Message-ID: <021101d611ce$7d28cf50$777a6df0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat >...But isn't that the point? To get everyone wound up and upset? Clickbait?...MB We have been handed the perfect laboratory. Three adjacent nations, Finland, Sweden, Norway, similar climates, similar genetic demographics, similar economic activity, similar international travel, similar governments. The one in the middle decides to do a gutsy experiment by keeping their economies open. The attention of the world would be best invested focusing on the outcomes of those three countries in comparison to each other. If anyone knows who is doing that or where they are posting, do share por favor. spike From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 13 20:23:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:23:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles Message-ID: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> I have been doing some what-if thinking. China is watching the goings on in Hong Kong and so are the commies running the government over there. It is getting pretty easy to envision the Chinese people deciding that freedom of speech business would be a nice thing to have. Perhaps they are collectively thinking how nice it would be if they could post anything they want on the internet and not need to worry it might cost them their lives. So what if... this whole virus catastrophe really is as bad as I think it is now. Recall what happened in 1986 when the power plant exploded in Chernobyl and the commies tried to cover it up. If you talk to Ukranians who were there (I have close friends who were) and Russians, many will agree that was the one event that really changed everything. Ukraine just didn't want this anymore. The ball started rolling right then, and didn't stop until the communist party in Russia was overthrown and replaced. If the virus really does slay as many proles in China as I think it is going to, those 1.4 billion proles may decide they don't want this anymore. They want freedom of speech, they want the right to bear arms, they want the kinds of freedoms Americans have taken for granted since forever. Do let us hope. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 20:50:42 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:50:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Protests have been going on in Hong Kong for quite some time, so it seems that they will not be gunned down or otherwise dispatched. bill w On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 3:25 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I have been doing some what-if thinking. > > China is watching the goings on in Hong Kong and so are the commies running > the government over there. It is getting pretty easy to envision the > Chinese people deciding that freedom of speech business would be a nice > thing to have. Perhaps they are collectively thinking how nice it would be > if they could post anything they want on the internet and not need to worry > it might cost them their lives. > > So what if... this whole virus catastrophe really is as bad as I think it > is > now. Recall what happened in 1986 when the power plant exploded in > Chernobyl and the commies tried to cover it up. If you talk to Ukranians > who were there (I have close friends who were) and Russians, many will > agree > that was the one event that really changed everything. Ukraine just didn't > want this anymore. The ball started rolling right then, and didn't stop > until the communist party in Russia was overthrown and replaced. > > If the virus really does slay as many proles in China as I think it is > going > to, those 1.4 billion proles may decide they don't want this anymore. They > want freedom of speech, they want the right to bear arms, they want the > kinds of freedoms Americans have taken for granted since forever. Do let > us > hope. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 21:20:10 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:20:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That may hold true (to some extent, for now) in HK, but it most certainly doesn't apply in mainland China. HK is a special case (for the time being) due to its history as a UK possession. On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 4:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Protests have been going on in Hong Kong for quite some time, so it seems > that they will not be gunned down or otherwise dispatched. bill w > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 3:25 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> I have been doing some what-if thinking. >> >> China is watching the goings on in Hong Kong and so are the commies >> running >> the government over there. It is getting pretty easy to envision the >> Chinese people deciding that freedom of speech business would be a nice >> thing to have. Perhaps they are collectively thinking how nice it would >> be >> if they could post anything they want on the internet and not need to >> worry >> it might cost them their lives. >> >> So what if... this whole virus catastrophe really is as bad as I think it >> is >> now. Recall what happened in 1986 when the power plant exploded in >> Chernobyl and the commies tried to cover it up. If you talk to Ukranians >> who were there (I have close friends who were) and Russians, many will >> agree >> that was the one event that really changed everything. Ukraine just >> didn't >> want this anymore. The ball started rolling right then, and didn't stop >> until the communist party in Russia was overthrown and replaced. >> >> If the virus really does slay as many proles in China as I think it is >> going >> to, those 1.4 billion proles may decide they don't want this anymore. >> They >> want freedom of speech, they want the right to bear arms, they want the >> kinds of freedoms Americans have taken for granted since forever. Do let >> us >> hope. >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 21:34:53 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:34:53 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 06:25, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I have been doing some what-if thinking. > > China is watching the goings on in Hong Kong and so are the commies running > the government over there. It is getting pretty easy to envision the > Chinese people deciding that freedom of speech business would be a nice > thing to have. Perhaps they are collectively thinking how nice it would be > if they could post anything they want on the internet and not need to worry > it might cost them their lives. > > So what if... this whole virus catastrophe really is as bad as I think it > is > now. Recall what happened in 1986 when the power plant exploded in > Chernobyl and the commies tried to cover it up. If you talk to Ukranians > who were there (I have close friends who were) and Russians, many will > agree > that was the one event that really changed everything. Ukraine just didn't > want this anymore. The ball started rolling right then, and didn't stop > until the communist party in Russia was overthrown and replaced. > > If the virus really does slay as many proles in China as I think it is > going > to, those 1.4 billion proles may decide they don't want this anymore. They > want freedom of speech, they want the right to bear arms, they want the > kinds of freedoms Americans have taken for granted since forever. Do let > us > hope. Do not conflate free speech with ?the right to bear arms?. The latter is a peculiarly American idea. The rest of the world for the most part thinks it?s crazy. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 13 21:52:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:52:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 06:25, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: If the virus really does slay as many proles in China as I think it is going to, those 1.4 billion proles may decide they don't want this anymore. They want freedom of speech, they want the right to bear arms, they want the kinds of freedoms Americans have taken for granted since forever. Do let us hope. >?Do not conflate free speech with ?the right to bear arms?. The latter is a peculiarly American idea. The rest of the world for the most part thinks it?s crazy. -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, without the right to bear arms, the people have no rights at all, but rather only a list of grudging permissions which may be taken away at the government?s whim. There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be rescinded at the government?s whim, but those will all have a common characteristic: they have not exercised their right to be armed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 21:54:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:54:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Do not conflate free speech with ?the right to bear arms?. The latter is a peculiarly American idea. The rest of the world for the most part thinks it?s crazy. > -- *Stathis Papaioannou* *Not Switzerland bill w* On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 06:25, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> I have been doing some what-if thinking. >> >> China is watching the goings on in Hong Kong and so are the commies >> running >> the government over there. It is getting pretty easy to envision the >> Chinese people deciding that freedom of speech business would be a nice >> thing to have. Perhaps they are collectively thinking how nice it would >> be >> if they could post anything they want on the internet and not need to >> worry >> it might cost them their lives. >> >> So what if... this whole virus catastrophe really is as bad as I think it >> is >> now. Recall what happened in 1986 when the power plant exploded in >> Chernobyl and the commies tried to cover it up. If you talk to Ukranians >> who were there (I have close friends who were) and Russians, many will >> agree >> that was the one event that really changed everything. Ukraine just >> didn't >> want this anymore. The ball started rolling right then, and didn't stop >> until the communist party in Russia was overthrown and replaced. >> >> If the virus really does slay as many proles in China as I think it is >> going >> to, those 1.4 billion proles may decide they don't want this anymore. >> They >> want freedom of speech, they want the right to bear arms, they want the >> kinds of freedoms Americans have taken for granted since forever. Do let >> us >> hope. > > > Do not conflate free speech with ?the right to bear arms?. The latter is a > peculiarly American idea. The rest of the world for the most part thinks > it?s crazy. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 22:02:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:02:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be > rescinded at the government?s whim, but those will all have a common > characteristic: they have not exercised their right to be armed. spike > __________Can you even imagine how many people would march on Washington > if something like that happened? Many millions - all armed. And I suspect > the military would not follow orders either. I won't say that it can't > happen, but I think it's very close to can't. bill w > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 22:07:46 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:07:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 2:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Stathis, without the right to bear arms, the people have no rights at all, > but rather only a list of grudging permissions which may be taken away at > the government?s whim. > > > > There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be > rescinded at the government?s whim, but those will all have a common > characteristic: they have not exercised their right to be armed. > Nice theory, but in practice, the police are so thoroughly armed that when they perceive a need to break out their most lethal weapons, citizens bearing arms tend to be among the first to lose their rights permanently. (Last I checked, the dead have no rights.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 22:22:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:22:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Let's hope we never find out, adrian bill w On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:16 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 2:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Stathis, without the right to bear arms, the people have no rights at >> all, but rather only a list of grudging permissions which may be taken away >> at the government?s whim. >> >> >> >> There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be >> rescinded at the government?s whim, but those will all have a common >> characteristic: they have not exercised their right to be armed. >> > > Nice theory, but in practice, the police are so thoroughly armed that when > they perceive a need to break out their most lethal weapons, citizens > bearing arms tend to be among the first to lose their rights permanently. > (Last I checked, the dead have no rights.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 23:16:49 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:16:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Moon Treaty Message-ID: 40 years ago I was head of the L5 Society committee that defeated the Moon Treaty. What our lawyer did was to get every member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to sign letters to the Secretary of State saying what a bad idea the Moon Treaty was. A couple of hours ago, this showed up in my email. BREAKING NEWS: The Trump administration has just repudiated the Moon Treaty. The Executive Order of April 6 states that "The Secretary of State shall object to any attempt by any other state or international organization to treat the Moon Agreement as reflecting or otherwise expressing customary international law." In doing so, the administration has chosen the path of dominance over the path of cooperation. As VP Pence stated in 2018, "Space is a warfighting domain. It is not enough to have an American presence in space. We must have American dominance in space. Full order at https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/ executive-order-encouraging-international-support-recovery-use-space-resources/. If by some chance you want to see what Arel and I wrote about the treaty in 1982, it's here: https://www.unz.com/print/Reason-1982aug-00033 It's very strange to have this ancient episode still banging about. Keith From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 23:44:46 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:44:46 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 07:55, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles > > > > > > > > On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 06:25, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > If the virus really does slay as many proles in China as I think it is > going > to, those 1.4 billion proles may decide they don't want this anymore. They > want freedom of speech, they want the right to bear arms, they want the > kinds of freedoms Americans have taken for granted since forever. Do let > us > hope. > > > > >?Do not conflate free speech with ?the right to bear arms?. The latter is > a peculiarly American idea. The rest of the world for the most part thinks > it?s crazy. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Stathis, without the right to bear arms, the people have no rights at all, > but rather only a list of grudging permissions which may be taken away at > the government?s whim. > > > > There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be > rescinded at the government?s whim, but those will all have a common > characteristic: they have not exercised their right to be armed. > Even in America, the right to bear arms is not accompanied by a right to shoot Government officials if you disagree with them, which is what would be needed. The arms can be legally used by citizens for hunting, target practice and self-defence, and illegally used for homicide or rebellion. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 00:09:36 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:09:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be rescinded at the government?s whim, but those will all have a common characteristic: they have not exercised their right to be armed. >?Even in America, the right to bear arms is not accompanied by a right to shoot Government officials if you disagree with them, which is what would be needed. The arms can be legally used by citizens for hunting, target practice and self-defence, and illegally used for homicide or rebellion. -- Stathis Papaioannou Hi Stathis, Of course. I am in full agreement. The right to bear arms is never for shooting US government officials, for they are on our side. Any former government official who does not uphold the constitution and American civil rights clearly stated therein is no longer a US government official. The military is on our side too: the militias, the military, the US government and I all agree on this. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 00:13:31 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:13:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Moon Treaty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now that the capability is actually becoming possible, people look and think they see an absence of established law - precisely because no one has been engaging in the activity. If there is desire to further concrete that we can legally mine the Moon, effective effort would be spent actually mining the Moon (and doing the engineering things necessary to do so), not just pounding the law further. On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 4:19 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > 40 years ago I was head of the L5 Society committee that defeated the > Moon Treaty. What our lawyer did was to get every member of the > Senate Foreign Relations Committee to sign letters to the Secretary of > State saying what a bad idea the Moon Treaty was. > > A couple of hours ago, this showed up in my email. > > BREAKING NEWS: The Trump administration has just repudiated the Moon > Treaty. The Executive Order of > > April 6 states that "The Secretary of State shall object to any > attempt by any other state or international organization to treat the > Moon Agreement as reflecting or otherwise expressing customary > international law." In doing so, the administration has chosen the > path of dominance over the > path of cooperation. As VP Pence stated in 2018, "Space is a > warfighting domain. It is not enough to have an American presence in > space. We must have American dominance in space. Full order at > https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/ > > executive-order-encouraging-international-support-recovery-use-space-resources/. > > If by some chance you want to see what Arel and I wrote about the > treaty in 1982, it's here: > > https://www.unz.com/print/Reason-1982aug-00033 > > It's very strange to have this ancient episode still banging about. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 00:15:04 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:15:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There are already far too many examples in practice. Most of them only involved a few individuals and thus have resulted in few casualties, fortunately. On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 3:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Let's hope we never find out, adrian bill w > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:16 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 2:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Stathis, without the right to bear arms, the people have no rights at >>> all, but rather only a list of grudging permissions which may be taken away >>> at the government?s whim. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be >>> rescinded at the government?s whim, but those will all have a common >>> characteristic: they have not exercised their right to be armed. >>> >> >> Nice theory, but in practice, the police are so thoroughly armed that >> when they perceive a need to break out their most lethal weapons, citizens >> bearing arms tend to be among the first to lose their rights permanently. >> (Last I checked, the dead have no rights.) >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 04:15:02 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 14:15:02 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 10:11, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be > rescinded at the government?s whim, but those will all have a common > characteristic: they have not exercised their right to be armed. > > >?Even in America, the right to bear arms is not accompanied by a right to > shoot Government officials if you disagree with them, which is what would > be needed. The arms can be legally used by citizens for hunting, target > practice and self-defence, and illegally used for homicide or rebellion. > > -- Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Hi Stathis, > > > > Of course. I am in full agreement. The right to bear arms is never for > shooting US government officials, for they are on our side. Any former > government official who does not uphold the constitution and American civil > rights clearly stated therein is no longer a US government official. The > military is on our side too: the militias, the military, the US government > and I all agree on this. > If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were unconstitutional. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 04:41:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:41:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were unconstitutional. -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis of course. Police are generally good people and know the law a lot better than average citizens. All of them I know are good guys. They know what they can do and what they cannot do. I have no quarrels with law enforcement. A good case in point: the local police were sent around to encourage any remaining open non-essential businesses to close up and go home. The gun shops stayed open (and still are.) The mayor and council argued around about it for a while, then decided to let it go. California is one of those states which chose to pull rank on the Fed based on the 10 amendment in the area of marijuana. If the state can pull 10th amendment rank on the Fed, then the cities can pull 9th amendment rank on the state. Most cities decided to leave the gun shops to their booming business, at trade levels not seen since the days of the previous POTUS, whose name I cannot recall at the moment, the most successful gun salesman in history. The current POTUS is terrible for gun sales, a catastrophe for that industry. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 05:15:13 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:15:13 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 14:43, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is > unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten > to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to > shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate > from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were > unconstitutional. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Stathis of course. Police are generally good people and know the law a > lot better than average citizens. All of them I know are good guys. They > know what they can do and what they cannot do. I have no quarrels with law > enforcement. > > > > A good case in point: the local police were sent around to encourage any > remaining open non-essential businesses to close up and go home. The gun > shops stayed open (and still are.) The mayor and council argued around > about it for a while, then decided to let it go. > > > > California is one of those states which chose to pull rank on the Fed > based on the 10 amendment in the area of marijuana. If the state can pull > 10th amendment rank on the Fed, then the cities can pull 9th amendment > rank on the state. Most cities decided to leave the gun shops to their > booming business, at trade levels not seen since the days of the previous > POTUS, whose name I cannot recall at the moment, the most successful gun > salesman in history. The current POTUS is terrible for gun sales, a > catastrophe for that industry. > But ?the right to bear arms? does not protect other rights, as you claimed, unless there is an additional right to use the arms against agents of the state who the individual believes are acting unconstitutionally. If the police decided to force the gun shops to close the gun shop owners would not have had the right to shoot the police on the grounds that in their opinion the police are acting unconstitutionally. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 11:32:26 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:32:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 7:47 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Even in America, the right to bear arms is not accompanied by a right to > shoot Government officials if you disagree with them, which is what would > be needed. The arms can be legally used by citizens for hunting, target > practice and self-defence, and illegally used for homicide or rebellion. > There's "legal" and there's "right". If the law is wrong in the minds of citizens, it's not wrong to use force in defense against it. Does it really surprise anyone that a country founded by rebellion recognizes that? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 11:35:36 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:35:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:37 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Do not conflate free speech with ?the right to bear arms?. The latter is > a peculiarly American idea. The rest of the world for the most part thinks > it?s crazy.* > Very good point Stathis. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 12:39:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 05:39:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?But ?the right to bear arms? does not protect other rights, as you claimed, unless there is an additional right to use the arms against agents of the state who the individual believes are acting unconstitutionally. If the police decided to force the gun shops to close the gun shop owners would not have had the right to shoot the police on the grounds that in their opinion the police are acting unconstitutionally. -- Stathis Papaioannou Oh OK I see what you meant, cool. We were on two completely different topics. Times like these are unusual, so the legalities are not well known, but gun shop owners are specialty lawyers in a way. The constables who come to ask them to close have only the option of issuing a 50 dollar fine if they refuse, a misdemeanor, where constables do not use force. That task of closing businesses has nothing to do with the right to bear arms. The cops fully recognize (and support) the right to bear arms, and the rights of the steady stream of customers walking out with guns and ammo. Cops don?t want to raid a home unarmed where they suspect the homeowner is armed. That would be very dangerous. The California governor issued orders that non-essential businesses close. Gun shops point out that they are essential businesses, because a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. California is a free state, always has been, even before 1863 when Mr. Lincoln declared all states free. The gun shops arm the militia. The militia is necessary. Therefore the gun shops are necessary. They can stay open. The constables chose to not fight that in court. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 12:43:26 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:43:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Stathis, without the right to bear arms, the people have no rights at > all,* > And that's why today life in New Zealand, Canada and Denmark is indistinguishable from what life was like under Stalin in the USSR or in Nazi Germany,..... oh wait... > *> but rather only a list of grudging permissions which may be taken away > at the government?s whim.* > But things are very different in America because the US army knows that an angry redneck with a shotgun could easily destroy a M1 Abrams battle tank or a F-22 jet fighter. Because of this 19,510 Americans had the freedom to get murdered last year (6 per 100,000) but only 660 Canadians had that privilege (1.6 per 100,000). I said it before I'll say it again, regardless of how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned. *> There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be > rescinded at the government?s whim,* > That is true. I've even heard of an American who I believe happens to be the head of the government's executive branch say "*I have the right to do anything*" and "*I have the right to do a lot of things that people don?t even know about*" and "*The federal government has absolute power*" and "*When somebody is the president of the United States their authority is total*." But we have rednecks with shotguns so we have no need to worry. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 12:44:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:44:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Nowhere that I know of do we have a militia. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 7:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > *>?*But ?the right to bear arms? does not protect other rights, as you > claimed, unless there is an additional right to use the arms against agents > of the state who the individual believes are acting unconstitutionally. If > the police decided to force the gun shops to close the gun shop owners > would not have had the right to shoot the police on the grounds that in > their opinion the police are acting unconstitutionally. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Oh OK I see what you meant, cool. We were on two completely different > topics. > > > > Times like these are unusual, so the legalities are not well known, but > gun shop owners are specialty lawyers in a way. The constables who come to > ask them to close have only the option of issuing a 50 dollar fine if they > refuse, a misdemeanor, where constables do not use force. That task of > closing businesses has nothing to do with the right to bear arms. The cops > fully recognize (and support) the right to bear arms, and the rights of the > steady stream of customers walking out with guns and ammo. Cops don?t want > to raid a home unarmed where they suspect the homeowner is armed. That > would be very dangerous. > > > > The California governor issued orders that non-essential businesses > close. Gun shops point out that they are essential businesses, because a > well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. > California is a free state, always has been, even before 1863 when Mr. > Lincoln declared all states free. The gun shops arm the militia. The > militia is necessary. Therefore the gun shops are necessary. They can > stay open. The constables chose to not fight that in court. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 13:01:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 06:01:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Stathis, without the right to bear arms, the people have no rights at all, And that's why today life in New Zealand, Canada and Denmark is indistinguishable from what life was like under Stalin in the USSR or in Nazi Germany,..... oh wait... John, I had perceived you as a guy who doesn?t trust the US government. > but rather only a list of grudging permissions which may be taken away at the government?s whim. >?But things are very different in America because the US army knows that an angry redneck with a shotgun? The angry redneck and the military are on the same side. >?could easily destroy a M1 Abrams battle tank or a F-22 jet fighter? Neither of those weapons are brought to bear against angry rednecks on American soil. >?Because of this 19,510 Americans had the freedom to get murdered last year (6 per 100,000)? Had we no right to bear arms, that number would have been in the millions. The right to bear arms protects Americans against the bad guys. >?I said it before I'll say it again, regardless of how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned? John feel free to abandon any theory you wish. That is why we have a second amendment, for those who wish to abandon the theory that Americans have rights. > There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be rescinded at the government?s whim, >?That is true. I've even heard of an American who I believe happens to be the head of the government's executive branch say "I have the right to do anything" and "I have the right to do a lot of things that people don?t even know about" and "The federal government has absolute power" and "When somebody is the president of the United States their authority is total." But we have rednecks with shotguns so we have no need to worry. John K Clark It worked: the federal government did not take over and assume dictatorial control of the country or violate Americans? constitutional rights. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? So am I. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 13:03:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 06:03:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008201d6125d$0f4d48f0$2de7dad0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles >?Nowhere that I know of do we have a militia. bill w Everywhere that I know of we have a militia. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 13:14:08 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:14:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 8:42 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Gun shops point out that they are essential businesses, because a > well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. * Regardless of what the Constitution says it is crystal clear that a well-regulated militia is NOT necessary to the security of a free state. And the vast majority of gun shop customers are not part of a militia, well-regulated or otherwise. And besides, what exactly did the framers of the Constitution mean by "arms"? It is usually difficult to say what they were thinking 250 years ago but in this case I believe we can definitely say they were NOT thinking about AK47's, they were thinking about muzzle loading muskets and single shot flintlock pistols. So is a 50 caliber machine gun an "arm"? Is a nerve gas grenade an "arm"? Are there any limits or does the second amendment allow Walmart to sell H-bombs in their Armageddon department next to kitchenware? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 13:27:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 06:27:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <008201d6125d$0f4d48f0$2de7dad0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <008201d6125d$0f4d48f0$2de7dad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a301d61260$719ddda0$54d998e0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 6:03 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] ccp struggles > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles >?Nowhere that I know of do we have a militia. bill w Everywhere that I know of we have a militia. spike Being over age 45 and my son under the age of 17, and my bride female, the three of us are not part of the militia, but rather are allies of it. 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia: composition and classes * U.S. Code * Notes prev | next (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b)The classes of the militia are? (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. That exception is for people up to age 64 who are former military. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 13:30:29 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:30:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *John, I had perceived you as a guy who doesn?t trust the US > government. * > I sure as hell do not trust the current head of the US government, but most rednecks with shotguns believe every word he says with religious fervor, so I don't trust them either. >>?But things are very different in America because the US army knows that >> an angry redneck with a shotgun? > > > > *> The angry redneck and the military are on the same side.* > Then why the hell do we need the damn redneck and his idiotic shotgun? >>?Because of this 19,510 Americans had the freedom to get murdered last >> year (6 per 100,000)? > > > *Had we no right to bear arms, that number would have been in the > millions. * > And that's why millions of Canadians were murdered last year.... oh wait.... 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URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 13:39:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 06:39:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 6:14 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 8:42 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Gun shops point out that they are essential businesses, because a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. >?Regardless of what the Constitution says it is crystal clear that a well-regulated militia is NOT necessary to the security of a free state? John, starting out a post with the comment ??Regardless of what the Constitution says?? is not a good way to develop credibility. I regard what the Constitution says. I am highly regardful of what the constitution says. I am highly regardful of the constitution regardless of what you say, but I support your right to say it anyway. I am exercising my constitutional rights at this moment, to post freely my comments without worrying that I can sit in prison for arbitrary lengths of time as government agents read over my voluminous posts on the internet deciding if I will live or die. Reason: the constitution insures me the right to free speech. Reason we have the right to free speech: we have the right to bear arms. >?And the vast majority of gun shop customers are not part of a militia, well-regulated or otherwise? John K Clark Indeed? The vast majority of the gun shop customers are not male between the ages of 17 and 45? Have you visited a gun shop and made some kind of survey in which you inquired regarding the customers? gender and age? Last time I was over there, most of the customers were the militia. >?And besides, what exactly did the framers of the Constitution mean by "arms"? The framers had just survived a bitter struggle against tyranny with only muzzle-loading flintlocks. Those guys would have loooooved modern military arms. The fact that we have those now is why we don?t face the risk of a modern civil war as well. Modern military arms and the presence of the militia is why we aren?t at war with ourselves right now as our own government is at war with itself. The militia protects the peace. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 13:52:46 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:52:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Had we no right to bear arms, that number would have been in the millions. The right to bear arms protects Americans against the bad guys That isn't happening anywhere else despite the fact that other countries are populated by humans. Just what is a militia in your opinion? The name suggests to me an organized group, like the Nat'l Guard. All we have are survivalists and the like. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 8:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 6:14 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* John Clark > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 8:42 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **Gun shops point out that they are essential businesses, because a > well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. * > > > > >?Regardless of what the Constitution says it is crystal clear that > a well-regulated militia is NOT necessary to the security of a free state? > > > > John, starting out a post with the comment ??Regardless of what the > Constitution says?? is not a good way to develop credibility. I regard > what the Constitution says. I am highly regardful of what the constitution > says. I am highly regardful of the constitution regardless of what you > say, but I support your right to say it anyway. > > > > I am exercising my constitutional rights at this moment, to post freely my > comments without worrying that I can sit in prison for arbitrary lengths of > time as government agents read over my voluminous posts on the internet > deciding if I will live or die. Reason: the constitution insures me the > right to free speech. Reason we have the right to free speech: we have the > right to bear arms. > > > > >?And the vast majority of gun shop customers are not part of a militia, > well-regulated or otherwise? John K Clark > > > > Indeed? The vast majority of the gun shop customers are not male between > the ages of 17 and 45? Have you visited a gun shop and made some kind of > survey in which you inquired regarding the customers? gender and age? Last > time I was over there, most of the customers were the militia. > > > > >?And besides, what exactly did the framers of the Constitution mean by > "arms"? > > > > The framers had just survived a bitter struggle against tyranny with only > muzzle-loading flintlocks. Those guys would have loooooved modern military > arms. The fact that we have those now is why we don?t face the risk of a > modern civil war as well. Modern military arms and the presence of the > militia is why we aren?t at war with ourselves right now as our own > government is at war with itself. The militia protects the peace. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 14:08:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:08:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003201d61266$3d571650$b80542f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?I sure as hell do not trust the current head of the US government, but most rednecks with shotguns believe every word he says with religious fervor, so I don't trust them either? I see, so you have done some kind of survey of rednecks with shotguns, so you are an authority on what most rednecks with shotguns believe? Indeed? Do share your survey results please. In order to show racial sensitivity, I feel these shotgun-wielders should be referred to as necks of color. >> The angry redneck and the military are on the same side. >?Then why the hell do we need the damn redneck and his idiotic shotgun? Are you suggesting we must do away with necks of color? Or only the necks of color with shotguns? Some of those necks of color may have arms much more sincere that shotguns, and many have both a shotgun and a long-range rifle. Are you volunteering to go do away with these necks? In any case, your comment demonstrates why we have a second amendment: it?s to protect those of us who are necks of color against those who wonder why we need necks of color. We need us to protect us. It works. >?And that's why millions of Canadians were murdered last year.... oh wait.... John K Clark The Canadian government is not at war with itself. The US government is. But the American people are at peace with ourselves, because we have the means to protect ourselves. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 14:24:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:24:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005101d61268$6360df00$2a229d00$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles >? Just what is a militia in your opinion? All able-bodies males between the ages of 17 and 45, plus former military up to age 64. It isn?t really an opinion, but rather the actual legal definition. See US legal code section 246 of title 10 and US legal code section 313 of title 32. It really isn?t a bit complicated or subject to whimsical opinions on what arms necks of color need or should be allowed to have. It?s the law. >?The name suggests to me an organized group, like the Nat'l Guard? The National Guard is part of the militia. From US legal code section 246 of title 10: (b)The classes of the militia are? (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246 I was never part of the organized militia, but was part of the organized militia for 28 years. You and John Clark were as well (I am assuming both are male.) Now I am an ally of the militia. All we have are survivalists and the like. bill w Billw, are you not a survivalist? What is a non-survivalist to be called? A die-ist? A deadist? I am neither a die-ist or deadist but rather I am a survivalist. I like survival. I like life. This would make me an alivist. Life is good. Therefore survival is good. That makes me a survivalist neck of color, aged out of the militia but still an ally and willing volunteer trainer of militia should my services be called upon. spike spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 14:27:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:27:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <005101d61268$6360df00$2a229d00$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <005101d61268$6360df00$2a229d00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005801d61268$d202b5a0$760820e0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?I was never part of the organized militia, but was part of the organized militia for 28 years. You and John Clark were as well (I am assuming both are male.) Now I am an ally of the militia? Ooops typo, should be: ?but was part of the unorganized militia for 28 yrs. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 14:52:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:52:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <005801d61268$d202b5a0$760820e0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <005101d61268$6360df00$2a229d00$@rainier66.com> <005801d61268$d202b5a0$760820e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have no idea what you are talking about (re militia). If millions of lives are being saved by people having weapons why is 'homeowner shoots intruder' fairly rare? Have you had your coffee yet? bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:38 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > >?I was never part of the organized militia, but was part of the organized > militia for 28 years. You and John Clark were as well (I am assuming both > are male.) Now I am an ally of the militia? > > > > > > Ooops typo, should be: ?but was part of the unorganized militia for 28 > yrs. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 15:02:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:02:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008a01d6126d$ad8247e0$0886d7a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles >>?Had we no right to bear arms, that number would have been in the millions. The right to bear arms protects Americans against the bad guys >?That isn't happening anywhere else despite the fact that other countries are populated by humans?. bill w BillW, this is a paradoxical comment coming from you, for you are the one among us who was living during a time when the last western nation to have slavery murdered millions of its own unarmed citizens. This happened during your lifetime. During my lifetime, the Vietnam attacked its own and murdered unknown numbers. In the present day, the people of the People?s Republic of China live in fear of the government of the People?s Republic of China, for good reason. The doctor and several others who warned of a new viral pneumonia in Wuhan were imprisoned, forced to recant and repudiate their warnings, a murderous act which resulted in the virus to spreading across the globe resulting in untold suffering and the deaths of over a hundred thousand people outside of People?s Republic of China, and unknown numbers within. If the people of the People?s Republic of China had freedom of speech and the right to bear arms to maintain it, the government of the People?s Republic of China would have a bit more respect of the people of the People?s Republic of China, and would refrain from arresting them on an arbitrary whim because of what they post on the internet. The people of the People?s Republic of China must demand freedom of speech and the recognition of their right to bear arms. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:05:36 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:05:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> John, starting out a post with the comment ??Regardless of what the > Constitution says?? is not a good way to develop credibility. * > Why the hell not?! The Constitution was written by human beings and it is not the word of God, it's full of compromises and errors and I'd even say as originally written before its many amendments and judged by today's standards (which I admit is not entirely fair) it was an evil document. And I stand by every word I said, the Constitution does not have a monopoly on the truth nor does it give us a unique insight into the nature of reality, and the evidence clearly shows that a well-regulated militia is NOT necessary to the security of a free state. It is one thing to respect the Constitution it is quite another thing to worship it, the only thing I worship is the scientific method. > >>?And the vast majority of gun shop customers are not part of a militia, >> well-regulated or otherwise? > > *Indeed? * > Yes indeed. *> Have you visited a gun shop and made some kind of survey in which you > inquired regarding the customers? gender and age?* No I have not. I have not inquired how many zipper factories there are in Paraguay either. > >> ?And besides, what exactly did the framers of the Constitution mean by >> "arms"? > > > *> The framers had just survived a bitter struggle against tyranny with > only muzzle-loading flintlocks. * > Then why does Joe Redneck need anything more, why does he need a AK-47? And you didn't answer my question, are there any limits or does the second amendment allow Walmart to sell H-Bombs? * > Modern military arms and the presence of the militia is why we aren?t > at war* > And you didn't answer my other question either, if the crackpot militias and a modern professional army are really on the same side then why on earth do we need the redneck's shotgun? > * > with ourselves right now as our own government is at war with itself. > The militia protects the peace.* > The only well regulated militias in the US are the National Guard, the Navy Militia, and 23 state militias. Most of the others are crackpots and are not regulated at all, the 2 largest are the Oath Keepers and the Three Percenters , neither one exactly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, in fact I'd trust them about as far as I could comfortably spit out a rat. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 15:11:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:11:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <005101d61268$6360df00$2a229d00$@rainier66.com> <005801d61268$d202b5a0$760820e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009301d6126e$fbd1edf0$f375c9d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles I have no idea what you are talking about (re militia). This: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246 Are you not male? Were you not between the ages of 17 and 45 for 28 years? Me too. >?If millions of lives are being saved by people having weapons why is 'homeowner shoots intruder' fairly rare? Because the bad guys know any time they intrude into any home, that home might have exercised their second article rights, so that might well be the bad guy?s last day at the office. They go into alternative occupations. If OSHA would step up and require all homeowner weapons to be non-functional, the occupation of home intruder would be so much safer, millions would take up that trade, resulting in the deaths of the homeowners. We save the lives of the bad guys by making their trade too dangerous. Then they take up safer and often honest professions, at which time they are no longer bad guys. The constitution outranks OSHA, so millions of lives are saved. Have you had your coffee yet? bill w I have, thanks! Marvelous stuff it is. We didn?t drink it as much in the olden days, but taxation got out of hand, the Boston boys dumped the tea into the harbor, we switched over to coffee and I like it better than tea anyway. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:50:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:50:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <009301d6126e$fbd1edf0$f375c9d0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <005101d61268$6360df00$2a229d00$@rainier66.com> <005801d61268$d202b5a0$760820e0$@rainier66.com> <009301d6126e$fbd1edf0$f375c9d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I was not thinking of governments killing their citizens. And you are making a big assumption by saying that if those people were armed Mao's rule would have been much different - ditto Stalin, ditto Pol Pot etc. I need an example of citizens who rose up and with arms stopped a government from harassing its citizens. People are like sheep, mostly. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 10:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles > > > > I have no idea what you are talking about (re militia). > > > > This: > > > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246 > > > > Are you not male? Were you not between the ages of 17 and 45 for 28 > years? Me too. > > > > > > >?If millions of lives are being saved by people having weapons why is > 'homeowner shoots intruder' fairly rare? > > > > Because the bad guys know any time they intrude into any home, that home > might have exercised their second article rights, so that might well be the > bad guy?s last day at the office. They go into alternative occupations. > > > > If OSHA would step up and require all homeowner weapons to be > non-functional, the occupation of home intruder would be so much safer, > millions would take up that trade, resulting in the deaths of the > homeowners. We save the lives of the bad guys by making their trade too > dangerous. Then they take up safer and often honest professions, at which > time they are no longer bad guys. > > > > The constitution outranks OSHA, so millions of lives are saved. > > > > Have you had your coffee yet? > > > > bill w > > > > I have, thanks! Marvelous stuff it is. We didn?t drink it as much in the > olden days, but taxation got out of hand, the Boston boys dumped the tea > into the harbor, we switched over to coffee and I like it better than tea > anyway. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 16:03:31 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:03:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <005101d61268$6360df00$2a229d00$@rainier66.com> <005801d61268$d202b5a0$760820e0$@rainier66.com> <009301d6126e$fbd1edf0$f375c9d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:53 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I need an example of citizens who rose up and with arms stopped a > government from harassing its citizens. People are like sheep, mostly. > The American Revolution. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 16:07:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:07:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <005101d61268$6360df00$2a229d00$@rainier66.com> <005801d61268$d202b5a0$760820e0$@rainier66.com> <009301d6126e$fbd1edf0$f375c9d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ba01d61276$bd1c7cd0$37557670$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles >?Spike, I was not thinking of governments killing their citizens? I am, and I do. I think about that a lot. >?I need an example of citizens who rose up and with arms stopped a government from harassing its citizens? You are living in an example. The US government does not and cannot imprison people for what they write on the internet. That is a good example. The citizens rose up with arms in 1776 and saw to it that it stays that way. >? People are like sheep, mostly. bill w But partly not. The sheep are safe from the wolves, because of the sheep dogs. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 16:22:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:22:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 8:06 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > John, starting out a post with the comment ??Regardless of what the Constitution says?? is not a good way to develop credibility. Why the hell not?! Because the Constitution is the law of our land. When you repudiate the ConUS, you repudiate our legal system, which is why we need a militia. > Have you visited a gun shop and made some kind of survey in which you inquired regarding the customers? gender and age? >?No I have not? You should, John. It is educational. Visit the local firing range too. Talk and listen there. > The framers had just survived a bitter struggle against tyranny with only muzzle-loading flintlocks. >?Then why does Joe Redneck need anything more? For protection against those who treat the militia with disrespect and contempt. Note the second amendment doesn?t say what arms are necessary, only that a militia is necessary to the security of a free state. I live in a free state. I agree with the constitution. John do you agree with the constitution? If not, I agree with it enough for the both of us, with change left over. >? And you didn't answer my question, are there any limits or does the second amendment allow Walmart to sell H-Bombs? I don?t know that this has come to the Supreme Court, but I can imagine they would say it is the states? call. As far as I know, Walmart has never had H-Bomb in its catalog. >?And you didn't answer my other question either, if the crackpot militias and a modern professional army are really on the same side then why on earth do we need the redneck's shotgun? We don?t need the redneck?s shotgun. If you wish to take up with the neck of color why she needs her shotgun, then do go right ahead. Good chance she will tell you it is to hunt ducks and protect her from people like you. Fortunately we don?t need to know why we need the neck of color?s shotgun. By the way John, how much free speech do you need? Do you need high capacity free speech? Or can the government put a legal limit on your words, and the type of words you use? I like my free speech and I do not wish for government people telling me how many words and which words I can use. >?The only well regulated militias in the US are the National Guard, the Navy Militia, and 23 state militias? You left out the unorganized militia, which is none of the above. You were part of the unorganized militia for 28 years: 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia: composition and classes * U.S. Code * Notes prev | next (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b)The classes of the militia are? (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. >? Most of the others are crackpots and are not regulated at all, the 2 largest are the Oath Keepers and the Three Percenters , neither one exactly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, in fact I'd trust them about as far as I could comfortably spit out a rat? John K Clark No worries, John, you don?t give them a warm and fuzzy feeling either, and they don?t trust you as far as they could spit a rat. They exist to protect you and to protect themselves if you attack them. However, they are peaceful types. None of the murders in the worst hotspots are carried out by these organizations. If they were the problem, we would know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 16:31:18 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:31:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: +1 on all of Spike's points. The disconnect with gun owners and general contempt for a key part of the Constitution by John is somewhat surprising. The only rights you are guaranteed are secured by the end of a gun barrel. I'd also expect most libertarian leaning types to be prepared to defend their family and homestead without waiting for police to arrive when it will be too late. On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 8:06 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* John Clark > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **John, starting out a post with the comment ??Regardless of what the > Constitution says?? is not a good way to develop credibility. * > > > > Why the hell not?! > > > > Because the Constitution is the law of our land. When you repudiate the > ConUS, you repudiate our legal system, which is why we need a militia. > > > > > > *> **Have you visited a gun shop and made some kind of survey in which > you inquired regarding the customers? gender and age?* > > > > >?No I have not? > > > > You should, John. It is educational. Visit the local firing range too. > Talk and listen there. > > > > *> **The framers had just survived a bitter struggle against tyranny with > only muzzle-loading flintlocks. * > > > > >?Then why does Joe Redneck need anything more? > > > > For protection against those who treat the militia with disrespect and > contempt. > > > > Note the second amendment doesn?t say what arms are necessary, only that a > militia is necessary to the security of a free state. I live in a free > state. I agree with the constitution. John do you agree with the > constitution? If not, I agree with it enough for the both of us, with > change left over. > > > > >? And you didn't answer my question, are there any limits or does the > second amendment allow Walmart to sell H-Bombs? > > > > I don?t know that this has come to the Supreme Court, but I can imagine > they would say it is the states? call. As far as I know, Walmart has never > had H-Bomb in its catalog. > > > > > > >?And you didn't answer my other question either, if the crackpot militias > and a modern professional army are really on the same side then why on > earth do we need the redneck's shotgun? > > > > We don?t need the redneck?s shotgun. If you wish to take up with the neck > of color why she needs her shotgun, then do go right ahead. Good chance > she will tell you it is to hunt ducks and protect her from people like > you. Fortunately we don?t need to know why we need the neck of color?s > shotgun. > > > > By the way John, how much free speech do you need? Do you need high > capacity free speech? Or can the government put a legal limit on your > words, and the type of words you use? I like my free speech and I do not > wish for government people telling me how many words and which words I can > use. > > > > >?The only well regulated militias in the US are the National Guard, the > Navy Militia, and 23 state militias? > > > > You left out the unorganized militia, which is none of the above. You > were part of the unorganized militia for 28 years: > > > > 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia: composition and classes > > ? U.S. Code > > > ? Notes > > > prev | next > > *(a)* > > The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at > least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32 > , under 45 years of age > who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of > the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are > members of the National Guard. > > *(b)*The classes of the militia are? > > *(1)* > > the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval > Militia; and > > *(2)* > > the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who > are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. > > > > >? Most of the others are crackpots and are not regulated at all, the 2 > largest are the Oath Keepers > and the Three Percenters , > neither one exactly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, in fact I'd trust > them about as far as I could comfortably spit out a rat? John K Clark > > > > > > No worries, John, you don?t give them a warm and fuzzy feeling either, and > they don?t trust you as far as they could spit a rat. They exist to > protect you and to protect themselves if you attack them. However, they > are peaceful types. None of the murders in the worst hotspots are carried > out by these organizations. If they were the problem, we would know. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 16:46:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:46:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virus scenario Message-ID: <00f101d6127c$3bdca950$b395fbf0$@rainier66.com> This scenario doesn?t require a conspiracy. The virus research center in Wuhan uses bats a lot because they are known to carry corona viruses. Imagine some low level employee, a slacker who never studied at all, hired by the lab to clean the bat cages for 10 yuan an hour (about 1.40 USD.) She removes dead or dying bats every day. End of shift, the hungry employee takes the sack of dead and dying bats to the nearby wet market, trades them for a bowl of rice, one of the bats is carrying Covid19, it spreads from there, the Chinese government covers it up going so far as to arrest, threaten and silence any people within the People?s Republic of China would warn the world, people die. No conspiracy theory needed, the entire scenario perfectly plausible. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 16:47:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:47:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <005101d61268$6360df00$2a229d00$@rainier66.com> <005801d61268$d202b5a0$760820e0$@rainier66.com> <009301d6126e$fbd1edf0$f375c9d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, Dave, of course that's right, but the government was far away and often got tired of bothering with us. If the English really wanted to put us down, it is obvious to me that they could have sent ten times as many soldiers etc. as they did. They got no leadership from King George III. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:06 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:53 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> I need an example of citizens who rose up and with arms stopped a >> government from harassing its citizens. People are like sheep, mostly. >> > > The American Revolution. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 16:50:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:50:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Dylan, did you know that at the time of the American Revolution, the majority of people were against the revolution? They were Tories, conservative, and wanted to stay under the King of England. However, they did nothing to impede our efforts, to my knowledge. The excesses of the English energized only a small part of us, but they got the job done. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:36 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > +1 on all of Spike's points. The disconnect with gun owners and general > contempt for a key part of the Constitution by John is somewhat > surprising. The only rights you are guaranteed are secured by the end of a > gun barrel. > > I'd also expect most libertarian leaning types to be prepared to defend > their family and homestead without waiting for police to arrive when it > will be too late. > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 8:06 AM >> *To:* ExI chat list >> *Cc:* John Clark >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> *> **John, starting out a post with the comment ??Regardless of what the >> Constitution says?? is not a good way to develop credibility. * >> >> >> >> Why the hell not?! >> >> >> >> Because the Constitution is the law of our land. When you repudiate the >> ConUS, you repudiate our legal system, which is why we need a militia. >> >> >> >> >> >> *> **Have you visited a gun shop and made some kind of survey in which >> you inquired regarding the customers? gender and age?* >> >> >> >> >?No I have not? >> >> >> >> You should, John. It is educational. Visit the local firing range too. >> Talk and listen there. >> >> >> >> *> **The framers had just survived a bitter struggle against tyranny >> with only muzzle-loading flintlocks. * >> >> >> >> >?Then why does Joe Redneck need anything more? >> >> >> >> For protection against those who treat the militia with disrespect and >> contempt. >> >> >> >> Note the second amendment doesn?t say what arms are necessary, only that >> a militia is necessary to the security of a free state. I live in a free >> state. I agree with the constitution. John do you agree with the >> constitution? If not, I agree with it enough for the both of us, with >> change left over. >> >> >> >> >? And you didn't answer my question, are there any limits or does the >> second amendment allow Walmart to sell H-Bombs? >> >> >> >> I don?t know that this has come to the Supreme Court, but I can imagine >> they would say it is the states? call. As far as I know, Walmart has never >> had H-Bomb in its catalog. >> >> >> >> >> >> >?And you didn't answer my other question either, if the crackpot >> militias and a modern professional army are really on the same side then >> why on earth do we need the redneck's shotgun? >> >> >> >> We don?t need the redneck?s shotgun. If you wish to take up with the >> neck of color why she needs her shotgun, then do go right ahead. Good >> chance she will tell you it is to hunt ducks and protect her from people >> like you. Fortunately we don?t need to know why we need the neck of >> color?s shotgun. >> >> >> >> By the way John, how much free speech do you need? Do you need high >> capacity free speech? Or can the government put a legal limit on your >> words, and the type of words you use? I like my free speech and I do not >> wish for government people telling me how many words and which words I can >> use. >> >> >> >> >?The only well regulated militias in the US are the National Guard, the >> Navy Militia, and 23 state militias? >> >> >> >> You left out the unorganized militia, which is none of the above. You >> were part of the unorganized militia for 28 years: >> >> >> >> 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia: composition and classes >> >> ? U.S. Code >> >> >> ? Notes >> >> >> prev | next >> >> *(a)* >> >> The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at >> least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32 >> , under 45 years of age >> who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of >> the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are >> members of the National Guard. >> >> *(b)*The classes of the militia are? >> >> *(1)* >> >> the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval >> Militia; and >> >> *(2)* >> >> the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who >> are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. >> >> >> >> >? Most of the others are crackpots and are not regulated at all, the 2 >> largest are the Oath Keepers >> and the Three Percenters >> , neither one exactly >> gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, in fact I'd trust them about as far as I >> could comfortably spit out a rat? John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> No worries, John, you don?t give them a warm and fuzzy feeling either, >> and they don?t trust you as far as they could spit a rat. They exist to >> protect you and to protect themselves if you attack them. However, they >> are peaceful types. None of the murders in the worst hotspots are carried >> out by these organizations. If they were the problem, we would know. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 16:52:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:52:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'd also expect most libertarian leaning types to be prepared to defend their family and homestead without waiting for police to arrive when it will be too late. I suspect that that's true of left libertarians like myself, as well as the right wing ones. I am not sure that politics has anything to do with home protection. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:36 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > +1 on all of Spike's points. The disconnect with gun owners and general > contempt for a key part of the Constitution by John is somewhat > surprising. The only rights you are guaranteed are secured by the end of a > gun barrel. > > I'd also expect most libertarian leaning types to be prepared to defend > their family and homestead without waiting for police to arrive when it > will be too late. > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 8:06 AM >> *To:* ExI chat list >> *Cc:* John Clark >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> *> **John, starting out a post with the comment ??Regardless of what the >> Constitution says?? is not a good way to develop credibility. * >> >> >> >> Why the hell not?! >> >> >> >> Because the Constitution is the law of our land. When you repudiate the >> ConUS, you repudiate our legal system, which is why we need a militia. >> >> >> >> >> >> *> **Have you visited a gun shop and made some kind of survey in which >> you inquired regarding the customers? gender and age?* >> >> >> >> >?No I have not? >> >> >> >> You should, John. It is educational. Visit the local firing range too. >> Talk and listen there. >> >> >> >> *> **The framers had just survived a bitter struggle against tyranny >> with only muzzle-loading flintlocks. * >> >> >> >> >?Then why does Joe Redneck need anything more? >> >> >> >> For protection against those who treat the militia with disrespect and >> contempt. >> >> >> >> Note the second amendment doesn?t say what arms are necessary, only that >> a militia is necessary to the security of a free state. I live in a free >> state. I agree with the constitution. John do you agree with the >> constitution? If not, I agree with it enough for the both of us, with >> change left over. >> >> >> >> >? And you didn't answer my question, are there any limits or does the >> second amendment allow Walmart to sell H-Bombs? >> >> >> >> I don?t know that this has come to the Supreme Court, but I can imagine >> they would say it is the states? call. As far as I know, Walmart has never >> had H-Bomb in its catalog. >> >> >> >> >> >> >?And you didn't answer my other question either, if the crackpot >> militias and a modern professional army are really on the same side then >> why on earth do we need the redneck's shotgun? >> >> >> >> We don?t need the redneck?s shotgun. If you wish to take up with the >> neck of color why she needs her shotgun, then do go right ahead. Good >> chance she will tell you it is to hunt ducks and protect her from people >> like you. Fortunately we don?t need to know why we need the neck of >> color?s shotgun. >> >> >> >> By the way John, how much free speech do you need? Do you need high >> capacity free speech? Or can the government put a legal limit on your >> words, and the type of words you use? I like my free speech and I do not >> wish for government people telling me how many words and which words I can >> use. >> >> >> >> >?The only well regulated militias in the US are the National Guard, the >> Navy Militia, and 23 state militias? >> >> >> >> You left out the unorganized militia, which is none of the above. You >> were part of the unorganized militia for 28 years: >> >> >> >> 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia: composition and classes >> >> ? U.S. Code >> >> >> ? Notes >> >> >> prev | next >> >> *(a)* >> >> The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at >> least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32 >> , under 45 years of age >> who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of >> the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are >> members of the National Guard. >> >> *(b)*The classes of the militia are? >> >> *(1)* >> >> the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval >> Militia; and >> >> *(2)* >> >> the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who >> are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. >> >> >> >> >? Most of the others are crackpots and are not regulated at all, the 2 >> largest are the Oath Keepers >> and the Three Percenters >> , neither one exactly >> gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, in fact I'd trust them about as far as I >> could comfortably spit out a rat? John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> No worries, John, you don?t give them a warm and fuzzy feeling either, >> and they don?t trust you as far as they could spit a rat. They exist to >> protect you and to protect themselves if you attack them. However, they >> are peaceful types. None of the murders in the worst hotspots are carried >> out by these organizations. If they were the problem, we would know. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 16:55:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:55:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virus scenario In-Reply-To: <00f101d6127c$3bdca950$b395fbf0$@rainier66.com> References: <00f101d6127c$3bdca950$b395fbf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Surely any conspiracy theory or any ordinary theory would predict that if biological warfare were to be attempted, it would have a kill factor far, far higher than this virus. What is accomplished by killing a couple of hundred thousand people? (well yes, terror, of course, but not of people against the USA) bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > This scenario doesn?t require a conspiracy. > > > > The virus research center in Wuhan uses bats a lot because they are known > to carry corona viruses. > > > > Imagine some low level employee, a slacker who never studied at all, hired > by the lab to clean the bat cages for 10 yuan an hour (about 1.40 USD.) > She removes dead or dying bats every day. > > > > End of shift, the hungry employee takes the sack of dead and dying bats to > the nearby wet market, trades them for a bowl of rice, one of the bats is > carrying Covid19, it spreads from there, the Chinese government covers it > up going so far as to arrest, threaten and silence any people within the > People?s Republic of China would warn the world, people die. > > > > No conspiracy theory needed, the entire scenario perfectly plausible. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 17:09:33 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 13:09:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I agree, Bill, but get the feeling John would be fine with depriving the rest of us of the right to do so. On Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'd also expect most libertarian leaning types to be prepared to defend > their family and homestead without waiting for police to arrive when it > will be too late. > > I suspect that that's true of left libertarians like myself, as well as > the right wing ones. I am not sure that politics has anything to do with > home protection. > > bill w > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 11:36 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> +1 on all of Spike's points. The disconnect with gun owners and general >> contempt for a key part of the Constitution by John is somewhat >> surprising. The only rights you are guaranteed are secured by the end of a >> gun barrel. >> >> I'd also expect most libertarian leaning types to be prepared to defend >> their family and homestead without waiting for police to arrive when it >> will be too late. >> >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* extropy-chat *On >>> Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 8:06 AM >>> *To:* ExI chat list >>> *Cc:* John Clark >>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> *> **John, starting out a post with the comment ??Regardless of what >>> the Constitution says?? is not a good way to develop credibility. * >>> >>> >>> >>> Why the hell not?! >>> >>> >>> >>> Because the Constitution is the law of our land. When you repudiate the >>> ConUS, you repudiate our legal system, which is why we need a militia. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *> **Have you visited a gun shop and made some kind of survey in which >>> you inquired regarding the customers? gender and age?* >>> >>> >>> >>> >?No I have not? >>> >>> >>> >>> You should, John. It is educational. Visit the local firing range >>> too. Talk and listen there. >>> >>> >>> >>> *> **The framers had just survived a bitter struggle against tyranny >>> with only muzzle-loading flintlocks. * >>> >>> >>> >>> >?Then why does Joe Redneck need anything more? >>> >>> >>> >>> For protection against those who treat the militia with disrespect and >>> contempt. >>> >>> >>> >>> Note the second amendment doesn?t say what arms are necessary, only that >>> a militia is necessary to the security of a free state. I live in a free >>> state. I agree with the constitution. John do you agree with the >>> constitution? If not, I agree with it enough for the both of us, with >>> change left over. >>> >>> >>> >>> >? And you didn't answer my question, are there any limits or does the >>> second amendment allow Walmart to sell H-Bombs? >>> >>> >>> >>> I don?t know that this has come to the Supreme Court, but I can imagine >>> they would say it is the states? call. As far as I know, Walmart has never >>> had H-Bomb in its catalog. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >?And you didn't answer my other question either, if the crackpot >>> militias and a modern professional army are really on the same side then >>> why on earth do we need the redneck's shotgun? >>> >>> >>> >>> We don?t need the redneck?s shotgun. If you wish to take up with the >>> neck of color why she needs her shotgun, then do go right ahead. Good >>> chance she will tell you it is to hunt ducks and protect her from people >>> like you. Fortunately we don?t need to know why we need the neck of >>> color?s shotgun. >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way John, how much free speech do you need? Do you need high >>> capacity free speech? Or can the government put a legal limit on your >>> words, and the type of words you use? I like my free speech and I do not >>> wish for government people telling me how many words and which words I can >>> use. >>> >>> >>> >>> >?The only well regulated militias in the US are the National Guard, the >>> Navy Militia, and 23 state militias? >>> >>> >>> >>> You left out the unorganized militia, which is none of the above. You >>> were part of the unorganized militia for 28 years: >>> >>> >>> >>> 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia: composition and classes >>> >>> ? U.S. Code >>> >>> >>> ? Notes >>> >>> >>> prev | next >>> >>> *(a)* >>> >>> The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at >>> least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32 >>> , under 45 years of age >>> who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of >>> the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are >>> members of the National Guard. >>> >>> *(b)*The classes of the militia are? >>> >>> *(1)* >>> >>> the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the >>> Naval Militia; and >>> >>> *(2)* >>> >>> the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia >>> who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. >>> >>> >>> >>> >? Most of the others are crackpots and are not regulated at all, the 2 >>> largest are the Oath Keepers >>> and the Three Percenters >>> , neither one exactly >>> gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, in fact I'd trust them about as far as I >>> could comfortably spit out a rat? John K Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> No worries, John, you don?t give them a warm and fuzzy feeling either, >>> and they don?t trust you as far as they could spit a rat. They exist to >>> protect you and to protect themselves if you attack them. However, they >>> are peaceful types. None of the murders in the worst hotspots are carried >>> out by these organizations. If they were the problem, we would know. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 17:48:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 13:48:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:25 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>> >**The framers had just survived a bitter struggle against tyranny > with only muzzle-loading flintlocks. * > > >> ?Then why does Joe Redneck need anything more? > > > *> For protection against those who treat the militia with disrespect and > contempt.* > Rednecks need automatic firearms to protect themselves from insults? Muzzle loading muskets can't get the job done? I believe it is my constitutional right to treat anybody I want with disrespect and contempt and I intend to do so if they are disreputable and contemptible. > *John do you agree with the constitution?* Which part? I sure don't agree with the Electoral College, nor do I think its right that Dakota with 1.16 million people in it get 4 Senators but California with 39.51 million people in it only get 2. And I don't think religious freedom should have been specifically mentioned because if you have freedom of speech and assembly you get that automatically; so as it is if I do something for a non-religious reason it could be unconstitutional but if I do the exact same thing for a religious reason it's constitutional. Oh and I don't think slavery was a very good idea either. > *> I agree with the constitution.* > You agree completely with every single word? Don't you think a black man might be worth a little bit more than 3/5 of a white man, don't you think he's at least 65% as good? > >? And you didn't answer my question, are there any limits or does the >> second amendment allow Walmart to sell H-Bombs? > > > *> I don?t know that this has come to the Supreme Court, but I can imagine > they would say it is the states? call. * > Yeah you're probably right, the Vichy judges would vote as a block in a 5 to 4 decision, the NRA would start a lobbying campaign, and in a matter of weeks private citizens owning H-Bombs would be legal in Wyoming, Oklahoma, and West Virginia. *> By the way John, how much free speech do you need?* > 42. * > I like my free speech * > Me too. I also like my mother and apple pie. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:25:06 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 04:25:06 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 23:08, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles > > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **Stathis, without the right to bear arms, the people have no rights > at all,* > > > > And that's why today life in New Zealand, Canada and Denmark is > indistinguishable from what life was like under Stalin in the USSR or in > Nazi Germany,..... oh wait... > > > > > > John, I had perceived you as a guy who doesn?t trust the US government. > > > > *> **but rather only a list of grudging permissions which may be taken > away at the government?s whim.* > > > > >?But things are very different in America because the US army knows that > an angry redneck with a shotgun? > > > > The angry redneck and the military are on the same side. > > > > >?could easily destroy a M1 Abrams battle tank or a F-22 jet fighter? > > > > Neither of those weapons are brought to bear against angry rednecks on > American soil. > Because those who control these weapons don?t want to massacre the population, not because they are afraid of them being armed. > >?Because of this 19,510 Americans had the freedom to get murdered last > year (6 per 100,000)? > > > > Had we no right to bear arms, that number would have been in the > millions. The right to bear arms protects Americans against the bad guys. > You think that there would have been millions of murders in America if there were no ?right to bear arms??? Why is America so different to other countries in this regard? > >?I said it before I'll say it again, regardless of how beautiful a theory > is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned? > > > > John feel free to abandon any theory you wish. That is why we have a > second amendment, for those who wish to abandon the theory that Americans > have rights. > > > > > > *> **There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be > rescinded at the government?s whim,* > > > > >?That is true. I've even heard of an American who I believe happens to be > the head of the government's executive branch say "*I have the right to > do anything*" and "*I have the right to do a lot of things that people > don?t even know about*" and "*The federal government has absolute power*" > and "*When somebody is the president of the United States their authority > is total*." But we have rednecks with shotguns so we have no need to > worry. John K Clark > > > > It worked: the federal government did not take over and assume dictatorial > control of the country or violate Americans? constitutional rights. > > > > Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? So am I. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Tue Apr 14 18:19:03 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 14:19:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] virus scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a4dafe4cb542f06c0dc46556e82cc7d@ultimax.com> Not that I think anybody will respond, because there never is, but: Spike's scenario doesn't explain the crossover event. SARS-CoV-2 is not 100% bat content. Mostly it is -- 80%?? The balance, 20%??, came from some other mammal. Pangolin (an Asian anteater, looks a lot like an armadillo) is the thinking, but, whatever. So a crossover event was necessary to create this hybrid. We know for a fact that virions, disrobed of their outer protective sheaths, submerged in a living liquid environment exchange chunks of genetic material, swap genetic material like crazy, with each other and with their hosts. You and I have a ton of junk DNA in our genome that originated in virions. Hell, I just interviewed someone who discovered a "lateral gene transfer event" between **fungi** and an animal (a tiny fly called a midge). Yes, the fungus among us. Not only that, but the recipient organism (the midge) *expressed* the new gene (!), in a functional non-lethal way (!! self-synthesizing the essential nutrient beta carotene, one of a very rare few animals on Earth that can do that), and furthermore, *transmitted* the new genetic capability to her progeny. This gene-swapping phenomenon is *especially* common for RNA viruses since they lack the redundancy / error correction of DNA viruses. (The whole point of a double helix is to catch the weird sh*t and nip it in the bud.) This phenomenon is common enough with two different animals (think, pigs and ducks wrt H1N1); highly unlikely with three different animals at the same time. So we'll go with two. So where did that crossover happen? /in vivo/ or /in vitro/? I have no intuition about the answer to that, haven't read enough yet. But one plausible scenario is that one single human being, Patient Zero, some schmo swabbing out some messy place, was simultaneously infected with *both* virions at the same time, either due to bad luck/carelessness, bad management/carelessness, or design. Then P.Z. walked around for awhile, a living laboratory, shedding a gift that keeps on giving. Robert G Kennedy III, PE 1994 AAAS/ASME Congressional Fellow U.S. House Subcommittee on Space On 2020-04-14 12:56, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:46:23 -0700 > From: > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Cc: > Subject: [ExI] virus scenario > > This scenario doesn't require a conspiracy. > [snippissimo] From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 19:37:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:37:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Rednecks need automatic firearms? Automatic firearms are damn hard to license. Most states disallow them or make it such a pain in the ass to get them, it is a rich man?s toy. They are extremely rare. I have never seen one. >?to protect themselves from insults? No, to protect us from the bad guys. We don?t care about insults. >?Muzzle loading muskets can't get the job done? Not at all. >?I believe it is my constitutional right to treat anybody I want with disrespect and contempt? On that you are right. Aren?t you glad the constitution protects your attitude? >?and I intend to do so Somehow I am not the least bit surprised by that. >?if they are disreputable and contemptible? Did this neck of color actually do anything to earn your attitude of contempt and disrepute? Or do you feel worthy to label others disreputable and contemptable at your whim? Or are you the kind of person who holds others in contempt without any particular reason? > John do you agree with the constitution? >?Which part? I sure don't agree with the Electoral College? The letters US stand for United States of America. Not United People of America. The USA is a Republic made up of state governments working in unison. The Electoral College protects us from all manner of evil. >? And I don't think religious freedom should have been specifically mentioned? I do. >? Oh and I don't think slavery was a very good idea either. I agree. See Amendment 13. My ancestors fought to establish that amendment. >?You agree completely with every single word? Don't you think a black man might be worth a little bit more than 3/5 of a white man? The constitution doesn?t say anything about color. Where are you getting these terms ?white? and ?black? please? Neither word is found anywhere in the constitution, even if you include Amendment 15. > By the way John, how much free speech do you need? >?42. Not me. I want as much as I want, arbitrary numbers of words, any words I choose. > I like my free speech >?Me too. I also like my mother and apple pie. John K Clark There ya go, we agree more than we disagree. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 19:52:19 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:52:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 3:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > >?Rednecks need automatic firearms? > > > > Automatic firearms are damn hard to license. Most states disallow them or > make it such a pain in the ass to get them, it is a rich man?s toy. They > are extremely rare. I have never seen one. > > > I suspect John is confusing semi-automatic weapons with automatic ones based on a very cursory investigation into what gun laws in the US actually cover. As mentioned, an extremely small number of people are licensed to own and operate automatic weapons. A semi-automatic weapon is no different than a revolver in terms of outcome (in fact, the revolver is more reliable!) other than the potential number of bullets in the magazine versus revolvers. CT (helpfully?) where I am domiciled now limits those magazines to 10 rounds which is not many more than a revolver holds depending on caliber. When I was recently legally purchasing a 9mm semi-automatic handgun, the well mannered, and extremely knowledgeable guys in the shop were laughing over the formerly gun hating liberals calling into the store in a panic now wanting to get guns worried over COVID-19 negative outcomes. One of them got extremely irate when they found out you couldn't just walk in and purchase a gun without a permit, and asked in all seriousness for them to apply (the non-existent) gunshow loophole so they could grab one same day. Another woman called in asking if they had any sawed off shotguns in stock. The guy behind the counter laughingly replied that yes, they're in the banned weapons room we use in the back. It would behoove anyone who has never dealt with firearms in the US to actually get some experience with them, and find out that the large majority of legal firearm owners are responsible actors who take gun safety seriously. You may even make a few friends, and discover that it is a lot of fun to fire them at the range! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 20:10:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:10:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Just another note on liberals, unlike me: just about everything you read about liberals in the media refer to radical, far left radicals, who make up a tiny portion of the liberals. Squeaking wheel, and all that. So just put a 'radical' in front on the word liberal and you'll describe the true idiots who are liberal. Unlike the rational, highly intelligent, creative, kind, loving etc. liberals like me. If we were mandated to own weapons, like the Swiss, I would object to the power of the government being used to take away freedoms but I would not object to everyone owning a gun. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 2:54 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 3:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >> >> >> >> >?Rednecks need automatic firearms? >> >> >> >> Automatic firearms are damn hard to license. Most states disallow them >> or make it such a pain in the ass to get them, it is a rich man?s toy. >> They are extremely rare. I have never seen one. >> >> >> > > I suspect John is confusing semi-automatic weapons with automatic ones > based on a very cursory investigation into what gun laws in the US actually > cover. As mentioned, an extremely small number of people are licensed to > own and operate automatic weapons. A semi-automatic weapon is no different > than a revolver in terms of outcome (in fact, the revolver is more > reliable!) other than the potential number of bullets in the magazine > versus revolvers. CT (helpfully?) where I am domiciled now limits those > magazines to 10 rounds which is not many more than a revolver holds > depending on caliber. > > When I was recently legally purchasing a 9mm semi-automatic handgun, the > well mannered, and extremely knowledgeable guys in the shop were laughing > over the formerly gun hating liberals calling into the store in a panic now > wanting to get guns worried over COVID-19 negative outcomes. One of them > got extremely irate when they found out you couldn't just walk in and > purchase a gun without a permit, and asked in all seriousness for them to > apply (the non-existent) gunshow loophole so they could grab one same day. > Another woman called in asking if they had any sawed off shotguns in > stock. The guy behind the counter laughingly replied that yes, they're in > the banned weapons room we use in the back. > > It would behoove anyone who has never dealt with firearms in the US to > actually get some experience with them, and find out that the large > majority of legal firearm owners are responsible actors who take gun safety > seriously. You may even make a few friends, and discover that it is a lot > of fun to fire them at the range! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 20:29:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 13:29:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d6129b$6ecc4540$4c64cfc0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 12:52 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Dylan Distasio Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 3:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Rednecks need automatic firearms? Automatic firearms are damn hard to license. Most states disallow them or make it such a pain in the ass to get them, it is a rich man?s toy. They are extremely rare. I have never seen one. >?I suspect John is confusing semi-automatic weapons with automatic ones based on a very cursory investigation into what gun laws in the US actually cover. As mentioned, an extremely small number of people are licensed to own and operate automatic weapons. A semi-automatic weapon is no different than a revolver in terms of outcome (in fact, the revolver is more reliable!) ? I think you are right on that. The people who have the strongest opinion on firearms are often those who know the least about them. Consider the former presidential candidate whose campaign abruptly ended when he opined ?Hell yes we are going to take your AR-15!? When queried on the comment, he demonstrated he had no idea why that particular model. Perhaps he is against ergonomics and low weight. Since the AR-15 is well suited for women, smaller people, the handicapped, people with carpal tunnel syndrome and so forth, he was perhaps indicating he does not favor those kinds of people. Game over man. >?When I was recently legally purchasing a 9mm semi-automatic handgun, the well mannered, and extremely knowledgeable guys in the shop were laughing over the formerly gun hating liberals calling into the store in a panic now wanting to get guns worried over COVID-19 negative outcomes. One of them got extremely irate when they found out you couldn't just walk in and purchase a gun without a permit? You can go over to the gun shop now and find that perhaps most of the buyers had no idea how much bother it is to buy a handgun today. They thought the laws were about preventing bad guys from an easy fast gun purchase. It never occurs to them that the law applies to everyone, and that if they go around those laws, they are the bad guy. >?and asked in all seriousness for them to apply (the non-existent) gunshow loophole so they could grab one same day? Ja, and they are shocked when you point out that this isn?t a gun show, it is a gun shop. If they went to a gun show, they would be again surprised that so much of what they know isn?t so. >?Another woman called in asking if they had any sawed off shotguns in stock. The guy behind the counter laughingly replied that yes, they're in the banned weapons room we use in the back? They could go on to explain that shotguns are relatively easy to purchase, being long guns, and hacksaws are relatively easy to purchase. >?It would behoove anyone who has never dealt with firearms in the US to actually get some experience with them, and find out that the large majority of legal firearm owners are responsible actors who take gun safety seriously? It terrifies many today to even think of going into a shooting range. It isn?t even so much the fear of being shot, it is the fear of finding out that which one has so long believed isn?t true. >?You may even make a few friends? Oh the guys who hang out down there are so nice. Helpful, willing to teach the silly yahoos showing up there not knowing which direction the pointy end of the bullet is supposed to go. >? and discover that it is a lot of fun to fire them at the range! It really is a fun sport, one of the few a person can still participate in past the age of 50. Don?t worry, a day at the firing range will not make one deplorable, will not impact the color of one?s neck. It might make one a bit more open minded and less arrogant, but if one can tolerate that risk, it is a fun sport. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:44:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 17:44:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 3:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Automatic firearms are damn hard to license.* > Why isn't the same thing true for semi-automatic firearms? A bolt action rifle was good enough for all infantry soldiers in the first world war and good enough for the Germans and Japanese and British in the second, why isn't it good enough for home protection? > *Most states disallow them* > That would certainly be a very wise thing for them to do, but do you think It's constitutional? Does that mean you think the second amendment has limits, or to maintain consistency do you still feel compelled to defend the retail sale of Nerve Gas and H-Bombs at Walmart? *> are you the kind of person who holds others in contempt without any > particular reason?* > No, I need a particular reason to hold someone in contempt, being contemptible would do the trick. > *> The Electoral College protects us from all manner of evil.* > If California was as conservative as Wyoming and Wyoming as liberal as California I don't believe you'd be saying that. And the Electoral College sure as hell didn't protect us from the evil that resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue right now. >>? And I don't think religious freedom should have been specifically >> mentioned? > > > *> I do.* > Why? There are a infinite number of things you can do with freedom of the press and freedom of assembly, what makes talking to an invisible man in the sky fundamentally different from all the others? >>? Oh and I don't think slavery was a very good idea either. > > > > *> I agree. See Amendment 13. My ancestors fought to establish that > amendment.* > OK you got me on that one, my ancestors fought to continue slavery. Fortunately they lost. And one of my ancestors was hanged for grave robbery, but I don't think that was as disgraceful. >> ?You agree completely with every single word? Don't you think a black >> man might be worth a little bit more than 3/5 of a white man? > > > > *> The constitution doesn?t say anything about color. Where are you > getting these terms ?white? and ?black? please? Neither word is found > anywhere in the constitution, * > Come on Spike, don't you think you're being a tad disingenuous here? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 21:51:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 14:51:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?You think that there would have been millions of murders in America if there were no ?right to bear arms??? No. There would have been hundreds of millions. We would never have had the War of 1812. It would be the War of 1795, and the British would have won. We would be subjects of the queen today, bowing and meekly paying any tax she wished to dictate to us. >?Why is America so different to other countries in this regard? America was born out of overthrowing tyranny. It is in our DNA. That?s why we don?t have runaway government power here. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. Which do you prefer? Me too. >?I said it before I'll say it again, regardless of how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned? John feel free to abandon any theory you wish. That is why we have a second amendment, for those who wish to abandon the theory that Americans have rights. > There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be rescinded at the government?s whim, >?That is true. I've even heard of an American who I believe happens to be the head of the government's executive branch say "I have the right to do anything" and "I have the right to do a lot of things that people don?t even know about" and "The federal government has absolute power" and "When somebody is the president of the United States their authority is total." But we have rednecks with shotguns so we have no need to worry. John K Clark It worked: the federal government did not take over and assume dictatorial control of the country or violate Americans? constitutional rights. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? So am I. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:53:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:53:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <002501d6129b$6ecc4540$4c64cfc0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> <002501d6129b$6ecc4540$4c64cfc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It might make one a bit more open minded and less arrogant, but if one can tolerate that risk, it is a fun sport. spike So many of our sports involve control: where a ball goes, such as golf or basketball; where a bullet or arrow goes (why not knife-throwing?). Some sports,like running exhibit control over pain (marathon) and other aspects of the body. Perhaps people think that being able to control one thing generalizes to control over other things, like people. If so, I think they are wrong. Not only that: success at one sport generalizes very poorly to other sports, as recent superstars have demonstrated. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 3:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2020 12:52 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Dylan Distasio > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 3:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > >?Rednecks need automatic firearms? > > > > Automatic firearms are damn hard to license. Most states disallow them or > make it such a pain in the ass to get them, it is a rich man?s toy. They > are extremely rare. I have never seen one. > > > > > > >?I suspect John is confusing semi-automatic weapons with automatic ones > based on a very cursory investigation into what gun laws in the US actually > cover. As mentioned, an extremely small number of people are licensed to > own and operate automatic weapons. A semi-automatic weapon is no different > than a revolver in terms of outcome (in fact, the revolver is more > reliable!) ? > > > > I think you are right on that. The people who have the strongest opinion > on firearms are often those who know the least about them. > > > > Consider the former presidential candidate whose campaign abruptly ended > when he opined ?Hell yes we are going to take your AR-15!? When queried on > the comment, he demonstrated he had no idea why that particular model. > Perhaps he is against ergonomics and low weight. Since the AR-15 is well > suited for women, smaller people, the handicapped, people with carpal > tunnel syndrome and so forth, he was perhaps indicating he does not favor > those kinds of people. Game over man. > > > > >?When I was recently legally purchasing a 9mm semi-automatic handgun, the > well mannered, and extremely knowledgeable guys in the shop were laughing > over the formerly gun hating liberals calling into the store in a panic now > wanting to get guns worried over COVID-19 negative outcomes. One of them > got extremely irate when they found out you couldn't just walk in and > purchase a gun without a permit? > > > > You can go over to the gun shop now and find that perhaps most of the > buyers had no idea how much bother it is to buy a handgun today. They > thought the laws were about preventing bad guys from an easy fast gun > purchase. It never occurs to them that the law applies to everyone, and > that if they go around those laws, they are the bad guy. > > > > >?and asked in all seriousness for them to apply (the non-existent) > gunshow loophole so they could grab one same day? > > > > Ja, and they are shocked when you point out that this isn?t a gun show, it > is a gun shop. If they went to a gun show, they would be again surprised > that so much of what they know isn?t so. > > > > >?Another woman called in asking if they had any sawed off shotguns in > stock. The guy behind the counter laughingly replied that yes, they're in > the banned weapons room we use in the back? > > > > They could go on to explain that shotguns are relatively easy to purchase, > being long guns, and hacksaws are relatively easy to purchase. > > > > >?It would behoove anyone who has never dealt with firearms in the US to > actually get some experience with them, and find out that the large > majority of legal firearm owners are responsible actors who take gun safety > seriously? > > > > It terrifies many today to even think of going into a shooting range. It > isn?t even so much the fear of being shot, it is the fear of finding out > that which one has so long believed isn?t true. > > > > >?You may even make a few friends? > > > > Oh the guys who hang out down there are so nice. Helpful, willing to > teach the silly yahoos showing up there not knowing which direction the > pointy end of the bullet is supposed to go. > > > > >? and discover that it is a lot of fun to fire them at the range! > > > > It really is a fun sport, one of the few a person can still participate in > past the age of 50. Don?t worry, a day at the firing range will not make > one deplorable, will not impact the color of one?s neck. It might make one > a bit more open minded and less arrogant, but if one can tolerate that > risk, it is a fun sport. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 22:09:05 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:09:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 07:55, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > >?You think that there would have been millions of murders in America if > there were no ?right to bear arms??? > > > > No. > > > > There would have been hundreds of millions. > > > > We would never have had the War of 1812. It would be the War of 1795, and > the British would have won. We would be subjects of the queen today, > bowing and meekly paying any tax she wished to dictate to us. > > > > >?Why is America so different to other countries in this regard? > > > > America was born out of overthrowing tyranny. It is in our DNA. That?s > why we don?t have runaway government power here. > > > > When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the > government fears the people, there is liberty. > > > > Which do you prefer? Me too. > I don?t think that the main reason the US Government is not a tyranny is that they are afraid you have have a gun. If it were the case, why is the US different to other stable non-tyrannies where citizens lack guns? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zoielsoy at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 22:17:37 2020 From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 18:17:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] virus scenario In-Reply-To: <3a4dafe4cb542f06c0dc46556e82cc7d@ultimax.com> References: <3a4dafe4cb542f06c0dc46556e82cc7d@ultimax.com> Message-ID: Well, I'll tell you this much--the current virus revolving around the earth can we naturalized with hydrogen peroxide therapy. Also, increasing our tripeptide structure--most importantly our glutathione will most definitely hold a very strong defense. On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 2:35 PM Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Not that I think anybody will respond, because there never is, but: > > Spike's scenario doesn't explain the crossover event. > > SARS-CoV-2 is not 100% bat content. Mostly it is -- 80%?? The balance, > 20%??, came from some other mammal. Pangolin (an Asian anteater, looks > a lot like an armadillo) is the thinking, but, whatever. > > So a crossover event was necessary to create this hybrid. We know for a > fact that virions, disrobed of their outer protective sheaths, submerged > in a living liquid environment exchange chunks of genetic material, swap > genetic material like crazy, with each other and with their hosts. You > and I have a ton of junk DNA in our genome that originated in virions. > Hell, I just interviewed someone who discovered a "lateral gene transfer > event" between **fungi** and an animal (a tiny fly called a midge). > Yes, the fungus among us. Not only that, but the recipient organism > (the midge) *expressed* the new gene (!), in a functional non-lethal way > (!! self-synthesizing the essential nutrient beta carotene, one of a > very rare few animals on Earth that can do that), and furthermore, > *transmitted* the new genetic capability to her progeny. This > gene-swapping phenomenon is *especially* common for RNA viruses since > they lack the redundancy / error correction of DNA viruses. (The whole > point of a double helix is to catch the weird sh*t and nip it in the > bud.) This phenomenon is common enough with two different animals > (think, pigs and ducks wrt H1N1); highly unlikely with three different > animals at the same time. So we'll go with two. > > So where did that crossover happen? /in vivo/ or /in vitro/? I have no > intuition about the answer to that, haven't read enough yet. But one > plausible scenario is that one single human being, Patient Zero, some > schmo swabbing out some messy place, was simultaneously infected with > *both* virions at the same time, either due to bad luck/carelessness, > bad management/carelessness, or design. Then P.Z. walked around for > awhile, a living laboratory, shedding a gift that keeps on giving. > > Robert G Kennedy III, PE > 1994 AAAS/ASME Congressional Fellow > U.S. House Subcommittee on Space > > On 2020-04-14 12:56, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:46:23 -0700 > > From: > > To: "'ExI chat list'" > > Cc: > > Subject: [ExI] virus scenario > > > > This scenario doesn't require a conspiracy. > > > [snippissimo] > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 14 22:24:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:24:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c401d612ab$705b0850$511118f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 3:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Automatic firearms are damn hard to license. >?Why isn't the same thing true for semi-automatic firearms? You just demonstrated why. You argued against automatics, which are already (functionally) illegal. Then move on to equating those with semi-autos. As soon as you get those under more rigorous control, you move right on to the next step. The NRA exists for a reason: to stop that creeping compromise in its tracks. This has been a good month for the NRA. >?A bolt action rifle was good enough for all infantry soldiers in the first world war? That was a century ago. Now we have more reliable, lighter, more ergonomic, more accurate alternatives. If you decide at what point the unorganized militia must stop upgrading their equipment, let?s set it a century in the future rather than a century in the past. >?and good enough for the Germans? ?when they became the last western nation to institute slavery and murder millions of their own people, ja. I can scarcely see that as a powerful argument. >?and Japanese? When they murdered 4 million unarmed Chinese civilians, ja. Scarcely a powerful argument. >? why isn't it good enough for home protection? It isn?t only about homeland defense. It is about arming the unorganized militia. > Most states disallow them >?That would certainly be a very wise thing for them to do, but do you think It's constitutional? The Constitution isn?t about what the states can do, it?s about what the Federal government can do. >?Does that mean you think the second amendment has limits, or to maintain consistency do you still feel compelled to defend the retail sale of Nerve Gas and H-Bombs at Walmart? I don?t think Walmart sells these things. > are you the kind of person who holds others in contempt without any particular reason? No, I need a particular reason to hold someone in contempt, being contemptible would do the trick? John if you need no particular reason to hold someone in contempt, that says a lot about you. > The Electoral College protects us from all manner of evil. >?If California was as conservative as Wyoming and Wyoming as liberal as California I don't believe you'd be saying that? On the contrary. What states are conservative is up to the states. We are discussing the US Constitution, which I have always believed in, and still do. The reason it still stands today is that it has a second amendment. The bad guys would have overthrown it a long time ago otherwise. >?And the Electoral College sure as hell didn't protect us from the evil that resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue right now? On the contrary. The Constitution gives you the right to vote against whoever you wish and write whatever you wish without the fear the government will come and snatch you out of bed in the night, after which you are never heard from again. The constitution protects you John. >>? And I don't think religious freedom should have been specifically mentioned? > I do. >?Why? There are a infinite number of things you can do with freedom of the press and freedom of assembly, what makes talking to an invisible man in the sky fundamentally different from all the others? Don?t know, but that isn?t my burden. I don?t worry about that one and don?t think the Constitution needs amending to fix that. Good thing: the first ten amendments cannot be amended. Those are rights. >>? Oh and I don't think slavery was a very good idea either. > I agree. See Amendment 13. My ancestors fought to establish that amendment. > The constitution doesn?t say anything about color. Where are you getting these terms ?white? and ?black? please? Neither word is found anywhere in the constitution, Come on Spike, don't you think you're being a tad disingenuous here? John K Clark Not at all. The exact wording of the Constitution is important. The 3/5th counting didn?t apply to free blacks in America. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 00:01:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 17:01:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f301d612b8$f63c7cd0$e2b57670$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. Which do you prefer? Me too. I don?t think that the main reason the US Government is not a tyranny is that they are afraid you have have a gun. If it were the case, why is the US different to other stable non-tyrannies where citizens lack guns? -- Stathis Papaioannou Hi Stathis, given time, other governments will turn to tyranny. They aren?t there yet. The US government would be there already if it had been given the chance. In the US, it is always the scariest power-grabbers who want to get our guns from us. It?s our job to see they don?t get them and don?t get power either. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 00:05:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:05:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The main reason we won the Revolutionary war was France. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > >?You think that there would have been millions of murders in America if > there were no ?right to bear arms??? > > > > No. > > > > There would have been hundreds of millions. > > > > We would never have had the War of 1812. It would be the War of 1795, and > the British would have won. We would be subjects of the queen today, > bowing and meekly paying any tax she wished to dictate to us. > > > > >?Why is America so different to other countries in this regard? > > > > America was born out of overthrowing tyranny. It is in our DNA. That?s > why we don?t have runaway government power here. > > > > When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the > government fears the people, there is liberty. > > > > Which do you prefer? Me too. > > > > > > > > >?I said it before I'll say it again, regardless of how beautiful a theory > is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned? > > > > John feel free to abandon any theory you wish. That is why we have a > second amendment, for those who wish to abandon the theory that Americans > have rights. > > > > > > *> **There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be > rescinded at the government?s whim,* > > > > >?That is true. I've even heard of an American who I believe happens to be > the head of the government's executive branch say "*I have the right to > do anything*" and "*I have the right to do a lot of things that people > don?t even know about*" and "*The federal government has absolute power*" > and "*When somebody is the president of the United States their authority > is total*." But we have rednecks with shotguns so we have no need to > worry. John K Clark > > > > It worked: the federal government did not take over and assume dictatorial > control of the country or violate Americans? constitutional rights. > > > > Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? So am I. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 00:07:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:07:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I am lost. Describe for me the scenario where hundreds of millions of Americans are murdered. That's a number that is at least four times as high as any dictator achieved. Just who is murdering whom? bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 7:05 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > The main reason we won the Revolutionary war was France. bill w > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >> >> >> >> >?You think that there would have been millions of murders in America if >> there were no ?right to bear arms??? >> >> >> >> No. >> >> >> >> There would have been hundreds of millions. >> >> >> >> We would never have had the War of 1812. It would be the War of 1795, >> and the British would have won. We would be subjects of the queen today, >> bowing and meekly paying any tax she wished to dictate to us. >> >> >> >> >?Why is America so different to other countries in this regard? >> >> >> >> America was born out of overthrowing tyranny. It is in our DNA. That?s >> why we don?t have runaway government power here. >> >> >> >> When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the >> government fears the people, there is liberty. >> >> >> >> Which do you prefer? Me too. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >?I said it before I'll say it again, regardless of how beautiful a >> theory is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned? >> >> >> >> John feel free to abandon any theory you wish. That is why we have a >> second amendment, for those who wish to abandon the theory that Americans >> have rights. >> >> >> >> >> >> *> **There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be >> rescinded at the government?s whim,* >> >> >> >> >?That is true. I've even heard of an American who I believe happens to >> be the head of the government's executive branch say "*I have the right >> to do anything*" and "*I have the right to do a lot of things that >> people don?t even know about*" and "*The federal government has absolute >> power*" and "*When somebody is the president of the United States their >> authority is total*." But we have rednecks with shotguns so we have no >> need to worry. John K Clark >> >> >> >> It worked: the federal government did not take over and assume >> dictatorial control of the country or violate Americans? constitutional >> rights. >> >> >> >> Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? So am I. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> -- >> >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 00:17:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 17:17:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <00f301d612b8$f63c7cd0$e2b57670$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> <00f301d612b8$f63c7cd0$e2b57670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010b01d612bb$430e18f0$c92a4ad0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?In the US, it is always the scariest power-grabbers who want to get our guns from us. It?s our job to see they don?t get them and don?t get power either?spike Let us engage in some what if? For years you have seen my post asking what happens if China suddenly stops lending money to the US, which has been borrowing money like crazy during peacetime and full employment. It borrows to make routine budgets. OK. But now several things happen simultaneously, as implausible as they seem. A novel virus breaks out in China. They cover it up, it spreads everywhere on the globe. It is so serious and so contagious that governments everywhere choose to shut down their own economies. China is hit much harder than they admit, which causes their economy to go into a tailspin. This reduces their productivity, which causes shortages of manufactured goods all over the world, which sends the price of these goods upward in a time when unemployment in the USA and elsewhere is increasing dramatically because of the businesses which failed because of the quarantine. So? suddenly China stops lending. Just as well, because it is unclear the US could pay it back anyway, or if so, it would be in dollars we can no longer afford. In the meantime? the US is in a position where we might need to quickly figure out how to balance a budget which hasn?t balanced in years. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Apr 15 01:08:55 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 18:08:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Help! - Fwd: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender Message-ID: <20200414180855.Horde.holbzM0Y2lTcsZ2nXG64McA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Any clue as to why about every other email I try to post to the list gets returned to me saying that my "PTR is likely forged". What does that even mean? How do I fix this? Should I switch back to my old Yahoo account? Thanks, Stuart LaForge ----- Forwarded message from Mail Delivery System ----- Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 17:17:02 -0400 From: Mail Delivery System Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender To: avant at sollegro.com This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org host athena.zia.io [192.80.49.4] SMTP error from remote mail server after pipelined MAIL FROM: SIZE=6267: 550 5.7.1 ... Relaying denied. PTR likely forged [192.249.122.218] ----- End forwarded message ----- -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Mail Delivery System Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 17:17:02 -0400 Size: 7380 URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 01:13:28 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 01:13:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were unconstitutional. An armed American might not have the explicit right to shoot a policeman for violating his constitutional rights, but he certainly does have the option to do so. That option alone might prevent the policeman from barging into that American's home to see if he has anything he might want to take, demand free room and board from him, or otherwise excessively abuse police powers. Both the American citizen and the policeman have to deal with the consequences of their actions. By being armed, you can make sure those consequences are evident to the policeman. Armed citizenry keep the police honest. Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can now just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if they write or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that power here in America? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/abc-raids-australian-federal-police-press-freedom/11309810 Stuart LaForge -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 01:27:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 18:27:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015701d612c4$f8af3410$ea0d9c30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles Spike, I am lost. Describe for me the scenario where hundreds of millions of Americans are murdered. That's a number that is at least four times as high as any dictator achieved. Just who is murdering whom? bill w Imagine if everything between the Rio Grande and the 49th parallel had never been unified. Imagine endless tribal warfare, a continuous power struggle, an enormously scaled up version of the South Side of Chicago, the baddest part of town. The USA is sitting on a very valuable piece of real estate. If people had the option to fight over it, they would. The result would be very bad. Over time, the cumulative body count would be appalling. Bill if you get a chance, talk to someone who is from China and mention our civil war. To us, that was a huge event. They will talk about that kind of thing as something that happens in China, 640k deaths, not so unusual. The Great Leap, which was recent had a body count of an estimated over 40 million. We could have had that kind of thing happening on the American continent. But we didn?t. Had the Chinese citizens been armed, they may have been able to avert that Great Leap. spike On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 7:05 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: The main reason we won the Revolutionary war was France. bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?You think that there would have been millions of murders in America if there were no ?right to bear arms??? No. There would have been hundreds of millions. We would never have had the War of 1812. It would be the War of 1795, and the British would have won. We would be subjects of the queen today, bowing and meekly paying any tax she wished to dictate to us. >?Why is America so different to other countries in this regard? America was born out of overthrowing tyranny. It is in our DNA. That?s why we don?t have runaway government power here. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. Which do you prefer? Me too. >?I said it before I'll say it again, regardless of how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned? John feel free to abandon any theory you wish. That is why we have a second amendment, for those who wish to abandon the theory that Americans have rights. > There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be rescinded at the government?s whim, >?That is true. I've even heard of an American who I believe happens to be the head of the government's executive branch say "I have the right to do anything" and "I have the right to do a lot of things that people don?t even know about" and "The federal government has absolute power" and "When somebody is the president of the United States their authority is total." But we have rednecks with shotguns so we have no need to worry. John K Clark It worked: the federal government did not take over and assume dictatorial control of the country or violate Americans? constitutional rights. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? So am I. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Stathis Papaioannou _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 01:28:31 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 18:28:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virus scenario Message-ID: robot at ultimax.com wrote: > Not that I think anybody will respond, because there never is, but: Not getting a reply to a post is usual for me. There are two main reasons, the readers didn't understand it or it was so clear that people didn't find anything to respond to. < Spike's scenario doesn't explain the crossover event. Agree. But I have followed gene engineering for decades. I can state from such personal knowledge that making this virus in a lab is beyond the state of the art. Not really far beyond the state of the art but it is at least 5 years out and more likely ten years. The showstopper would be designing the entry protein. > SARS-CoV-2 is not 100% bat content. Mostly it is -- 80%?? The balance, 20%??, came from some other mammal. Pangolin (an Asian anteater, looks a lot like an armadillo) is the thinking, but, whatever. The path that seems most likely is that the virus made the jump from bats to pangolins some time ago. I don't remember where I saw it, but COVID-19 was found to be 99% similar to a coronavirus from pangolins. snip influenza data > So where did that crossover happen? /in vivo/ or /in vitro/? Flu is very different from coronavirus. It does not swap pieces of its genome with other viruses like flu does. The first human who got it was just unlucky that it was able to infect him. The second human was unlucky that the virus was able to infect from the first. It certainly could be worse. The related MERS virus kills about 70% of the people it infects. That's the pandemic that could cut the world population by half. As it is, too many people being sick at the same time is starting to have effects on the food supply. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 01:38:55 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 20:38:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <015701d612c4$f8af3410$ea0d9c30$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> <015701d612c4$f8af3410$ea0d9c30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: OK, I get it, Spike, though I think the reference to China may not work very well. Asians are conformists and authoritarians, highly unlike ourselves. They are also worshipers of the generations older than them. Not natural rebels to say the very least. Balkanization of America, eh? Now I wonder why it didn't happen. No one was holding a gun to the heads of the people in the states which decided to join America. I am very short in the history knowledge dept. Why did for instance, Utah join the U.S.? Or pick another one. Help with Indian wars? bill w On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 8:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ccp struggles > > > > Spike, I am lost. Describe for me the scenario where hundreds of millions > of Americans are murdered. That's a number that is at least four times as > high as any dictator achieved. Just who is murdering whom? bill w > > > > > > > > Imagine if everything between the Rio Grande and the 49th parallel had > never been unified. Imagine endless tribal warfare, a continuous power > struggle, an enormously scaled up version of the South Side of Chicago, the > baddest part of town. The USA is sitting on a very valuable piece of real > estate. If people had the option to fight over it, they would. The result > would be very bad. Over time, the cumulative body count would be appalling. > > > > Bill if you get a chance, talk to someone who is from China and mention > our civil war. To us, that was a huge event. They will talk about that > kind of thing as something that happens in China, 640k deaths, not so > unusual. The Great Leap, which was recent had a body count of an estimated > over 40 million. > > > > We could have had that kind of thing happening on the American continent. > But we didn?t. Had the Chinese citizens been armed, they may have been > able to avert that Great Leap. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 7:05 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > The main reason we won the Revolutionary war was France. bill w > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > >?You think that there would have been millions of murders in America if > there were no ?right to bear arms??? > > > > No. > > > > There would have been hundreds of millions. > > > > We would never have had the War of 1812. It would be the War of 1795, and > the British would have won. We would be subjects of the queen today, > bowing and meekly paying any tax she wished to dictate to us. > > > > >?Why is America so different to other countries in this regard? > > > > America was born out of overthrowing tyranny. It is in our DNA. That?s > why we don?t have runaway government power here. > > > > When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the > government fears the people, there is liberty. > > > > Which do you prefer? Me too. > > > > > > > > >?I said it before I'll say it again, regardless of how beautiful a theory > is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned? > > > > John feel free to abandon any theory you wish. That is why we have a > second amendment, for those who wish to abandon the theory that Americans > have rights. > > > > > > *> There are Americans who will argue Americans? civil rights can be > rescinded at the government?s whim,* > > > > >?That is true. I've even heard of an American who I believe happens to be > the head of the government's executive branch say "*I have the right to > do anything*" and "*I have the right to do a lot of things that people > don?t even know about*" and "*The federal government has absolute power*" > and "*When somebody is the president of the United States their authority > is total*." But we have rednecks with shotguns so we have no need to > worry. John K Clark > > > > It worked: the federal government did not take over and assume dictatorial > control of the country or violate Americans? constitutional rights. > > > > Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? So am I. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 01:46:49 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 18:46:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:18 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can now > just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if they write > or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that power here in > America? > Yes. I can imagine it very easily. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48696131 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/08/liberty-university-falwell-reporters-warrants-176346 And Trump certainly makes detailed representation of what more he would like to do. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 03:22:23 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 03:22:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <141185187.481559.1586920943067@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 06:52:38 PM PDT, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:18 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat wrote: Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can now just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if they write or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that power here in America? ?Yes.? I can imagine it very easily. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48696131? https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/08/liberty-university-falwell-reporters-warrants-176346? And Trump certainly makes detailed representation of what more he would like to do.?? In the BBC article, Trump was bluffing. The POTUS can't issue arrest warrants. It would take a judge and probable cause meaning suspicion of commission of an actual crime. Publishing Trump's unclassified fan mail from Kim Jung Un does not qualify. That being said, if the photographer was intent on publishing the photograph, he might sleep better at night if he bought a firearm. The second link doesn't involve the federal government at all. Stuart LaForge. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 03:24:02 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:24:02 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 11:18, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is > unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten > to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to > shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate > from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were > unconstitutional. > An armed American might not have the explicit right to shoot a policeman > for violating his constitutional rights, but he certainly does have the > option to do so. That option alone might prevent the policeman from barging > into that American's home to see if he has anything he might want to take, > demand free room and board from him, or otherwise excessively abuse police > powers. Both the American citizen and the policeman have to deal with the > consequences of their actions. By being armed, you can make sure those > consequences are evident to the policeman. Armed citizenry keep the police > honest. > > Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can now > just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if they write > or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that power here in > America? > > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/abc-raids-australian-federal-police-press-freedom/11309810 > > Stuart LaForge > Do you really think the Australian Federal Police would not have pursued the journalists if they feared they had guns? Do you think that the US Government might have not have pursued Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning if they had guns? -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Apr 15 01:02:09 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 18:02:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles Message-ID: <20200414180209.Horde.rrZ9k9LCYoV9tCyKCjpYghu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is > unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten > to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to > shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate > from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were > unconstitutional. An armed American might not have the explicit right to shoot a policeman for violating his constitutional rights, but he certainly does have the option to do so. That option alone might prevent the policeman from barging into that American's home to see if he has anything he might want to take, demand free room and board from him, or otherwise excessively abuse police powers. Both the American citizen and the policeman have to deal with the consequences of their actions. By being armed, you can make sure those consequences are evident to the policeman. Armed citizenry keep the police honest. Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can now just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if they write or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that power here in America? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/abc-raids-australian-federal-police-press-freedom/11309810 Stuart LaForge From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 06:03:31 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 06:03:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> ? On Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 08:33:11 PM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 11:18, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat wrote: Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were unconstitutional. An armed American might not have the explicit right to shoot a policeman for violating his constitutional rights, but he certainly does have the option to do so. That option alone might prevent the policeman from barging into that American's home to see if he has anything he might want to take, demand free room and board from him, or otherwise excessively abuse police powers. Both the American citizen and the policeman have to deal with the consequences of their actions. By being armed, you can make sure those consequences are evident to the policeman. Armed citizenry keep the police honest. Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can now just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if they write or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that power here in America? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/abc-raids-australian-federal-police-press-freedom/11309810 Do you really think the Australian Federal Police would not have pursued the journalists if they feared they had guns? Do you think that the US Government might have not have pursued Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning if they had guns? Those individuals would probably still have been pursued in those specific cases, but if the government started targeting a specific class of people,?let's say journalists or jews. In that case guns would allow those people a chance to band together and formed a meaningful resistance.? There is ancient saying: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who watches the watchers if not for we the people? The capacity for violence is like a currency accepted and appreciated not just by a single country or government but by all living things both known and unknown. Stuart LaForge -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 03:52:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 20:52:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01b401d612d9$48aa4590$d9fed0b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?Do you really think the Australian Federal Police would not have pursued the journalists if they feared they had guns? Do you think that the US Government might have not have pursued Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning if they had guns? -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, these questions go off in the wrong direction. The kinds of scenarios where the militia comes into play is if the regular army is not here for us. They are professionals: if they are not paid, they don?t come. The militia is made of citizens, not paid. It is easy enough to imagine ways in which the government cannot pay its military. An example of the kind of scenarios I am thinking of is when Germany instituted slavery and rounded up millions of its own people, unarmed, unable to defend. That whole episode would have played much differently if the Nazis had known a bullet could come from any direction at any time. Had the German people been individually armed, the horrifying experience of the concentration camps would never have happened. Never forget those lessons of history. I can easily envision a change coming to this exotic hybrid of communism and capitalism in China today. They want the material wealth that capitalism brings, while keeping the iron fist grip on power that governments enjoy holding. But what if the people of the People?s Republic decide they want freedom of speech and the right to bear arms? We could see a second Great Leap, but it really would be forward this time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 06:48:20 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 16:48:20 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 16:11, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 08:33:11 PM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via > extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 11:18, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is > unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten > to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to > shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate > from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were > unconstitutional. > An armed American might not have the explicit right to shoot a policeman > for violating his constitutional rights, but he certainly does have the > option to do so. That option alone might prevent the policeman from barging > into that American's home to see if he has anything he might want to take, > demand free room and board from him, or otherwise excessively abuse police > powers. Both the American citizen and the policeman have to deal with the > consequences of their actions. By being armed, you can make sure those > consequences are evident to the policeman. Armed citizenry keep the police > honest. > > Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can now > just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if they write > or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that power here in > America? > > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/abc-raids-australian-federal-police-press-freedom/11309810 > > > > Do you really think the Australian Federal Police would not have pursued > the journalists if they feared they had guns? Do you think that the US > Government might have not have pursued Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning > if they had guns? > > Those individuals would probably still have been pursued in those specific > cases, but if the government started targeting a specific class of people, let's > say journalists or jews. In that case guns would allow those people a > chance to band together and formed a meaningful resistance. There is > ancient saying: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who watches the watchers if > not for we the people? The capacity for violence is like a currency > accepted and appreciated not just by a single country or government but by > all living things both known and unknown. > The obvious example is not the journalists or the Jews but the criminals with guns: why do the police and the courts keep pursuing them? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 07:00:07 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:00:07 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <01b401d612d9$48aa4590$d9fed0b0$@rainier66.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <01b401d612d9$48aa4590$d9fed0b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 16:43, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > >?Do you really think the Australian Federal Police would not have pursued > the journalists if they feared they had guns? Do you think that the US > Government might have not have pursued Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning > if they had guns? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Stathis, these questions go off in the wrong direction. The kinds of > scenarios where the militia comes into play is if the regular army is not > here for us. They are professionals: if they are not paid, they don?t > come. The militia is made of citizens, not paid. It is easy enough to > imagine ways in which the government cannot pay its military. > > > > An example of the kind of scenarios I am thinking of is when Germany > instituted slavery and rounded up millions of its own people, unarmed, > unable to defend. That whole episode would have played much differently if > the Nazis had known a bullet could come from any direction at any time. > Had the German people been individually armed, the horrifying experience of > the concentration camps would never have happened. Never forget those > lessons of history. > > > > I can easily envision a change coming to this exotic hybrid of communism > and capitalism in China today. They want the material wealth that > capitalism brings, while keeping the iron fist grip on power that > governments enjoy holding. But what if the people of the People?s Republic > decide they want freedom of speech and the right to bear arms? We could > see a second Great Leap, but it really would be forward this time. > I?m pretty sure that if Chinese citizens were armed and rebellious due to disagreeing with the Government they would be shown no mercy; and the same goes for US citizens. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 07:10:44 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:10:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2052992412.526205.1586934644286@mail.yahoo.com> "We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring." - Carl Sagan On Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 11:49:03 PM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 16:11, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat wrote: ? On Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 08:33:11 PM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 11:18, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat wrote: Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were unconstitutional. An armed American might not have the explicit right to shoot a policeman for violating his constitutional rights, but he certainly does have the option to do so. That option alone might prevent the policeman from barging into that American's home to see if he has anything he might want to take, demand free room and board from him, or otherwise excessively abuse police powers. Both the American citizen and the policeman have to deal with the consequences of their actions. By being armed, you can make sure those consequences are evident to the policeman. Armed citizenry keep the police honest. Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can now just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if they write or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that power here in America? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/abc-raids-australian-federal-police-press-freedom/11309810 Do you really think the Australian Federal Police would not have pursued the journalists if they feared they had guns? Do you think that the US Government might have not have pursued Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning if they had guns? Those individuals would probably still have been pursued in those specific cases, but if the government started targeting a specific class of people,?let's say journalists or jews. In that case guns would allow those people a chance to band together and formed a meaningful resistance.? There is ancient saying: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who watches the watchers if not for we the people? The capacity for violence is like a currency accepted and appreciated not just by a single country or government but by all living things both known and unknown. The obvious example is not the journalists or the Jews but the criminals with guns: why do the police and the courts keep pursuing them? -- Stathis Papaioannou In theory, because it is the duty of the criminal justice system to do so. In Mexico, however, the well-armed drug cartels and the police seldom clash and instead they usually victimize the unarmed citizens. Low hanging fruit and all. Stuart LaForge -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 07:53:17 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:53:17 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <2052992412.526205.1586934644286@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> <2052992412.526205.1586934644286@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 17:12, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > "We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to > ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring." > - Carl Sagan > > > On Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 11:49:03 PM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via > extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 16:11, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, April 14, 2020, 08:33:11 PM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via > extropy-chat wrote: > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 11:18, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is > unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten > to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to > shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate > from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were > unconstitutional. > An armed American might not have the explicit right to shoot a policeman > for violating his constitutional rights, but he certainly does have the > option to do so. That option alone might prevent the policeman from barging > into that American's home to see if he has anything he might want to take, > demand free room and board from him, or otherwise excessively abuse police > powers. Both the American citizen and the policeman have to deal with the > consequences of their actions. By being armed, you can make sure those > consequences are evident to the policeman. Armed citizenry keep the police > honest. > > Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can now > just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if they write > or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that power here in > America? > > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/abc-raids-australian-federal-police-press-freedom/11309810 > > > > Do you really think the Australian Federal Police would not have pursued > the journalists if they feared they had guns? Do you think that the US > Government might have not have pursued Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning > if they had guns? > > Those individuals would probably still have been pursued in those specific > cases, but if the government started targeting a specific class of people, let's > say journalists or jews. In that case guns would allow those people a > chance to band together and formed a meaningful resistance. There is > ancient saying: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who watches the watchers if > not for we the people? The capacity for violence is like a currency > accepted and appreciated not just by a single country or government but by > all living things both known and unknown. > > > The obvious example is not the journalists or the Jews but the criminals > with guns: why do the police and the courts keep pursuing them? > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > In theory, because it is the duty of the criminal justice system to do so. > In Mexico, however, the well-armed drug cartels and the police seldom clash > and instead they usually victimize the unarmed citizens. Low hanging fruit > and all. > The Mexican drug cartels are organised and have huge amounts of money to spend on weapons. This is what it would take to oppose the Government; but as in Mexico, there would then be the problem of what such a militia would do with the power. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 07:56:36 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:56:36 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <00f301d612b8$f63c7cd0$e2b57670$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> <00f301d612b8$f63c7cd0$e2b57670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 10:03, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On * > > When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the > government fears the people, there is liberty. > > > > Which do you prefer? Me too. > > I don?t think that the main reason the US Government is not a tyranny is > that they are afraid you have have a gun. If it were the case, why is the > US different to other stable non-tyrannies where citizens lack guns? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > > > Hi Stathis, given time, other governments will turn to tyranny. They > aren?t there yet. The US government would be there already if it had been > given the chance. > > > > In the US, it is always the scariest power-grabbers who want to get our > guns from us. It?s our job to see they don?t get them and don?t get power > either. > But why aren?t countries with a long history of much lower gun ownership rates than the US, say the Netherlands or Australia, closer to tyranny than the US? On the contrary, the US is more authoritarian than these countries, with more restrictions of personal freedoms and harsher treatment of lawbreakers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 08:26:05 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 10:26:05 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics Message-ID: Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics Stephen Wolfram has announced the Wolfram Physics Project, based on a new framework for fundamental physics. https://turingchurch.net/stephen-wolfram-proposes-new-framework-for-fundamental-physics-629833845470 From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Wed Apr 15 09:15:05 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 14:45:05 +0530 Subject: [ExI] virus scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I can state from such personal knowledge that making this virus in a lab > is beyond the state of the art Please elaborate? On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:06 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > robot at ultimax.com wrote: > > > Not that I think anybody will respond, because there never is, but: > > Not getting a reply to a post is usual for me. There are two main > reasons, the readers didn't understand it or it was so clear that > people didn't find anything to respond to. > > < Spike's scenario doesn't explain the crossover event. > > Agree. But I have followed gene engineering for decades. I can state > from such personal knowledge that making this virus in a lab is beyond > the state of the art. Not really far beyond the state of the art but > it is at least 5 years out and more likely ten years. The showstopper > would be designing the entry protein. > > > SARS-CoV-2 is not 100% bat content. Mostly it is -- 80%?? The balance, > 20%??, came from some other mammal. Pangolin (an Asian anteater, looks > a lot like an armadillo) is the thinking, but, whatever. > > The path that seems most likely is that the virus made the jump from > bats to pangolins some time ago. I don't remember where I saw it, but > COVID-19 was found to be 99% similar to a coronavirus from pangolins. > > snip influenza data > > > So where did that crossover happen? /in vivo/ or /in vitro/? > > Flu is very different from coronavirus. It does not swap pieces of > its genome with other viruses like flu does. The first human who got > it was just unlucky that it was able to infect him. The second human > was unlucky that the virus was able to infect from the first. > > It certainly could be worse. The related MERS virus kills about 70% > of the people it infects. That's the pandemic that could cut the > world population by half. > > As it is, too many people being sick at the same time is starting to > have effects on the food supply. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 11:41:13 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:41:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Help! - Fwd: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender In-Reply-To: <20200414180855.Horde.holbzM0Y2lTcsZ2nXG64McA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200414180855.Horde.holbzM0Y2lTcsZ2nXG64McA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:11 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Any clue as to why about every other email I try to post to the list > gets returned to me saying that my "PTR is likely forged". What does > that even mean? It's a DNS thing. Normal DNS lookups turn a domain name like sollegro.com into an IP address. A PTR lookup turns an IP address into a domain name. Only the authoritative DNS server for a domain can do the name->IP association, but whoever owns an IP address can do IP->name association to any domain. So a mail server can do simple authentication by taking the IP of another server submitting mail, lookup up the domain name associated with it, then looking up the official IP for that name. If those two IPs don't match, that's a "likely forgery" (or an honest configuration error). How do I fix this? Pass the error on to your ISP. > Should I switch back to my old Yahoo account? > Maybe, if they won't/can't resolve the error. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 12:32:15 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:32:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:50 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The obvious example is not the journalists or the Jews but the criminals > with guns: why do the police and the courts keep pursuing them? > They believe in the system. It's their job. It's a source of money/power. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 12:56:51 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:56:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <00c401d612ab$705b0850$511118f0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> <00c401d612ab$705b0850$511118f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> You argued against automatics, which are already (functionally) > illegal. * > I asked this before but maybe this time you'll give me an answer, do you think the second amendment has limits or do you think making machine guns illegal is unconstitutional? > *> Then move on to equating those with semi-autos. As soon as you get > those under more rigorous control, you move right on to the next step.* > OK let's go there, why isn't a flintlock pistol good enough for home defense? It was after all the original intent of the framers of the Constitution. And conservatives are always talking about original intent. > *> This has been a good month for the NRA.* > And a very bad month for the world. > >>?A bolt action rifle was good enough for all infantry soldiers in the >> first world war? > > > *> That was a century ago. Now we have more reliable, lighter, more > ergonomic, more accurate alternatives.* > Bolt action rifles are very reliable, they jam far less often than automatics and they're more accurate too, Marine snipers use them to this day. And lightness and ergonomics are not important in defending your home because you are unlikely to need to lug it around on a 50 mile hike. > *If you decide at what point the unorganized militia must stop upgrading > their equipment, let?s set it a century in the future rather than a century > in the past.* > So we're right back to the retail sale of H-Bombs question which you refuse to answer. > >>?and good enough for the Germans? > > > *> ?when they became the last western nation to institute slavery and > murder millions of their own people, ja. I can scarcely see that as a > powerful argument.* > I see, so the reason the Nazis committed atrocities is that they use bolt action rifles not semi-automatics as the US did. No I take that back, I don't see. >>?and Japanese? > > > *> When they murdered 4 million unarmed Chinese civilians, ja. Scarcely a > powerful argument.* > Spike, you're getting very silly. *> The Constitution isn?t about what the states can do, it?s about what the > Federal government can do.* > So you think the Constitution isn?t important, an individual state could ignore it and abolish freedom of the press, or decree that any sort of firearm is illegal even flintlocks, or reintroduce slavery, or make their governor king, or do anything else they wanted. > >>?Does that mean you think the second amendment has limits, or to >> maintain consistency do you still feel compelled to defend the retail sale >> of Nerve Gas and H-Bombs at Walmart? > > > *> I don?t think Walmart sells these things.* > Stop being cute and have the guts to answer the question, does the second amendment demand that retail sales of H-bombs be allowed or does it not? This only requires a yes or no answer. >> I need a particular reason to hold someone in contempt, being >> contemptible would do the trick? > > > *> John if you need no particular reason to hold someone in contempt, that > says a lot about you.* > Spike, what does that have to do with me? I said "*I need a particular reason to hold someone in contempt*". I certainly hold the current POTUS in contempt and I have a huge number of particular reasons for doing so. I'd love to state them in detail but you wouldn't like that. > *>>> **The Electoral College protects us from all manner of evil.* > > >>?If California was as conservative as Wyoming and Wyoming as liberal as > California I don't believe you'd be saying that? > > > *> On the contrary. * > I'm not buying it. There is no rational reason a Wyoming voter should have 66.7 times as much power to determine who the president will be than a California voter and 68.3 times as much influence over what happens in the US Senate. Therefore I conclude someone must have other reasons for saying "*The Electoral College protects us from all manner of evil*". > *> We are discussing the US Constitution, which I have always believed in, > and still do. * Bible Thumpers believe that every word in their book is perfect in every way, do you feel the same about the US Constitution? > >?And the Electoral College sure as hell didn't protect us from the evil >> that resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue right now? > > > *> On the contrary. * > The Electoral College gave us the 2 worst presidents in my lifetime, in both cases the people voted for somebody else but thanks to the Constitution their votes weren't relevant, only the votes of 538 individuals in that elite organization are important, they are the votes that counted, and they voted for a fool in the first case and a fool who was also a fascist in the second. *> The Constitution gives you the right to vote against whoever you wish* > And on a whim the Constitution gives some votes 66.7 times as much power as other votes. Some people get to cast real votes but others must make do with the pretend version, like an infant in a car seat turning a toy steering wheel while he makes vroom vroom noises. > >>There are a infinite number of things you can do with freedom of the >> press and freedom of assembly, what makes talking to an invisible man in >> the sky fundamentally different from all the others? > > > Don?t know, > I don't know either. I don't know why putting a building on top of a mountain to talk to an invisible man in the sky is constitutional but putting a telescope on a mountain is not. Well actually I do know why, it's because the Constitution specifically mentions that you're free to engage in religion but it does NOT specifically mention that you're free to engage in astronomy. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 13:01:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 06:01:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007401d61325$edd11a70$c9734f50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?The obvious example is not the journalists or the Jews but the criminals with guns: why do the police and the courts keep pursuing them? -- Stathis Papaioannou Criminals aren?t allowed to have guns. They gave up that right when they became criminals. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 13:04:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 06:04:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <01b401d612d9$48aa4590$d9fed0b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009001d61326$64ffa990$2efefcb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?I?m pretty sure that if Chinese citizens were armed and rebellious due to disagreeing with the Government they would be shown no mercy; and the same goes for US citizens. -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis the point of Chinese citizens being armed is that their government would show more respect to its own people. Currently the Chinese government can do anything it wants, such as arresting the doctor who sounded the alarm on C-19. If they had freedom of speech and guns, that warning would have gone out in time to save thousands of lives. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 13:10:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 06:10:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> <00f301d612b8$f63c7cd0$e2b57670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009901d61327$30d00600$92701200$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?But why aren?t countries with a long history of much lower gun ownership rates than the US, say the Netherlands or Australia, closer to tyranny than the US? On the contrary, the US is more authoritarian than these countries, with more restrictions of personal freedoms and harsher treatment of lawbreakers? You gave the reason why the US has, and carefully protects, our rights to own guns: we have more restrictions of personal freedoms. If the government gets guns away from the citizens, we don?t drift towards being more like the Netherlands, we drift toward being more like Nazi Germany or China. I don?t trust the US government. I haven?t seen a trustworthy in there in several decades, not a single one. Of course every US citizen has the option to not be armed. Do feel free to not be armed, by all means. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 13:32:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 06:32:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virus scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00bd01d6132a$457d44c0$d077ce40$@rainier66.com> Subject: Re: [ExI] virus scenario robot at ultimax.com wrote: > Not that I think anybody will respond, because there never is, but: Your posts are filled with content. It takes a while to think through and offer a response that makes sense. >... But I have followed gene engineering for decades. I can state from such personal knowledge that making this virus in a lab is beyond the state of the art. Not really far beyond the state of the art but it is at least 5 years out and more likely ten years. The showstopper would be designing the entry protein... ... This is not my area of expertise, but I have been thinking: we assume (I do) that this virus was not created in the lab, but rather that it somehow evolved there and infected a human there. Or it somehow evolved in a bat and a lab worker sold the bat at the local wet market. I have no idea on that pangolin business. Or something happened, some clueless goofball with no harmful intent was poking around with genetic material, but I have little doubt that one of those scenarios is plausible. In any case, the virus exists now, and viruses can be preserved in dry form somehow (they can, ja? (help me out here if you know.)) Regardless of how the virus came about, a hell of a potential bio-weapon has now presented itself, and every country in the world has access to it. Every country has the option now to isolate the virus and release it aboard an international flight or cruise liner on the last day of the voyage, causing global chaos once more. We have no vaccine and no guarantee we will ever have one: we still don't have an HIV vaccine, ja? All along our survivalists envisioned nuclear war, but this looks like a more likely scenario. The buildings and farms don't get wrecked in this one, so our civilization would at least leave behind a beautiful corpse. We are glad you are here Mr. Kennedy: we can sure use a biology guru among us right now. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 13:46:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:46:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mississippi governor Message-ID: He said that he did not want to issue a stay-home order because it was a liberal plot to keep people out of church. He finally did. That's the mentality we are dealing with down here. Paranoid morons. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 13:52:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:52:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virus scenario In-Reply-To: <00bd01d6132a$457d44c0$d077ce40$@rainier66.com> References: <00bd01d6132a$457d44c0$d077ce40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: All along our survivalists envisioned nuclear war, but this looks like a more likely scenario. The buildings and farms don't get wrecked in this one, so our civilization would at least leave behind a beautiful corpse. spike It seems that I read awhile back that neutron bombs killed people but left buildings etc. As for the virus, we had many bioweapons before it. bill w On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 8:34 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Subject: Re: [ExI] virus scenario > > robot at ultimax.com wrote: > > > Not that I think anybody will respond, because there never is, but: > > Your posts are filled with content. It takes a while to think through and > offer a response that makes sense. > > > >... But I have followed gene engineering for decades. I can state > from such personal knowledge that making this virus in a lab is beyond > the state of the art. Not really far beyond the state of the art but > it is at least 5 years out and more likely ten years. The showstopper > would be designing the entry protein... > > ... > > > This is not my area of expertise, but I have been thinking: we assume (I > do) > that this virus was not created in the lab, but rather that it somehow > evolved there and infected a human there. Or it somehow evolved in a bat > and a lab worker sold the bat at the local wet market. I have no idea on > that pangolin business. Or something happened, some clueless goofball with > no harmful intent was poking around with genetic material, but I have > little > doubt that one of those scenarios is plausible. > > In any case, the virus exists now, and viruses can be preserved in dry form > somehow (they can, ja? (help me out here if you know.)) Regardless of how > the virus came about, a hell of a potential bio-weapon has now presented > itself, and every country in the world has access to it. Every country has > the option now to isolate the virus and release it aboard an international > flight or cruise liner on the last day of the voyage, causing global chaos > once more. We have no vaccine and no guarantee we will ever have one: we > still don't have an HIV vaccine, ja? > > All along our survivalists envisioned nuclear war, but this looks like a > more likely scenario. The buildings and farms don't get wrecked in this > one, so our civilization would at least leave behind a beautiful corpse. > > We are glad you are here Mr. Kennedy: we can sure use a biology guru among > us right now. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 13:58:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:58:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <009901d61327$30d00600$92701200$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> <007d01d612a6$e5833260$b0899720$@rainier66.com> <00f301d612b8$f63c7cd0$e2b57670$@rainier66.com> <009901d61327$30d00600$92701200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Gun confiscation is the right wing's nightmare. I never have been able to buy this one. I see no evidence that it could occur here. Politicians are deathly afraid of the NRA. It just makes no sense to me. Even East Coast liberals don't support confiscation (which would destroy their credibility with just about everyone), just strong laws concerning ownership. Trying to take away guns would alarm everyone, who would think "What's next?" Even if it started, people would hide guns. I think it would be an impossibility to take away most of our guns. bill w On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 8:21 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > >?But why aren?t countries with a long history of much lower gun ownership > rates than the US, say the Netherlands or Australia, closer to tyranny than > the US? On the contrary, the US is more authoritarian than these countries, > with more restrictions of personal freedoms and harsher treatment of > lawbreakers? > > > > > > > > You gave the reason why the US has, and carefully protects, our rights to > own guns: we have more restrictions of personal freedoms. If the > government gets guns away from the citizens, we don?t drift towards being > more like the Netherlands, we drift toward being more like Nazi Germany or > China. > > > > I don?t trust the US government. I haven?t seen a trustworthy in there in > several decades, not a single one. > > > > Of course every US citizen has the option to not be armed. Do feel free > to not be armed, by all means. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 14:04:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 10:04:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Maybe things are getting better in the US In-Reply-To: References: <3AC6BD8D-0862-4C1B-8DCC-F67854FD6290@gmail.com> Message-ID: The bad news is COVID-19 killed 2407 Americans yesterday, the most ever for one day bringing the total up to 26,112. The good news is the number of new cases has declined for 4 days in a row. The other bad news is Trump will probably try to reopen things way too soon, most governors have the brains to ignore him but some in red states do not, so the new cases will probably go up again. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 14:10:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] mississippi governor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:48 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > He said that he did not want to issue a stay-home order because it was a > liberal plot to keep people out of church. He finally did. That's the > mentality we are dealing with down here. Paranoid morons. > Unfortunately you're correct. We could probably live with the paranoia, but moronic behavior by leaders in a pandemic kills people, lots of people. 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URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 14:12:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:12:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> <00c401d612ab$705b0850$511118f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ec01d6132f$e8f96f20$baec4d60$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 6:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > You argued against automatics, which are already (functionally) illegal. >?I asked this before but maybe this time you'll give me an answer, do you think the second amendment has limits or do you think making machine guns illegal is unconstitutional? States can do that legally, ja. The second amendment refers to what the Fed can do. Militias do not need machine guns. > Then move on to equating those with semi-autos. As soon as you get those under more rigorous control, you move right on to the next step. >?OK let's go there, why isn't a flintlock pistol good enough for home defense? It was after all the original intent of the framers of the Constitution. And conservatives are always talking about original intent? On the contrary, the original intent was arming the militia. The second amendment is about the militia, not about defending homes, farms, hunting, crime, any of that. The second amendment establishes a volunteer militia, a defense force which comes into play if the military isn?t there, such as if they cannot be paid. Do feel free to arm your home with a flintlock pistol however. >?Bolt action rifles are very reliable, they jam far less often than automatics and they're more accurate too, Marine snipers use them to this day. And lightness and ergonomics are not important in defending your home because you are unlikely to need to lug it around on a 50 mile hike? It is an option for you of course. The arms chosen by the militia is up to the individual members. > If you decide at what point the unorganized militia must stop upgrading their equipment, let?s set it a century in the future rather than a century in the past. So we're right back to the retail sale of H-Bombs question which you refuse to answer? I don?t refuse to answer: anyone with those kinds of resources has the option of buying an island in international waters and going ahead with it. On US soil they would need to get the state government to buy in, which is quite unlikely. They would likely need to deal with the international courts on the island, but we are talking about hundreds of billions of dollars to get one of these in any case, so paying off international authorities with a few trillion shouldn?t be difficult. John are you worried someone is going to do this? Why? I am far more concerned amateurs will try to isolate Covid-19 rather than try to get a nuke. >?Spike, you're getting very silly? Sure, as is the notion anyone has the right to dictate to an army or militia what weapons they may have. Of course the militias will have the most up to date equipment, but if you really think going into the past is the answer, the AR-15 is a 60 year old design, and the AK-47 is older than that. > The Constitution isn?t about what the states can do, it?s about what the Federal government can do. >?So you think the Constitution isn?t important? The constitution is important, and the reason we still have a unified country. >?an individual state could ignore it and abolish freedom of the press, or decree that any sort of firearm is illegal even flintlocks, or reintroduce slavery, or make their governor king, or do anything else they wanted? In a sense all of these things are possible. The reason it isn?t done is that people can go across state lines unimpeded. I said in a sense: a state can set its real estate taxes, corporate taxes and sales taxes at any level it wants. This is the functional equivalent of instituting communism in that state if it wants: if it controls the price of real estate, it controls business in a sense. The don?t do it because states must compete with other states. This is the beauty of our system: we have 50 competing laboratories for government. Anyone can go to the one which suits them. But Americans cannot necessarily go to any country which suits them: the other guy doesn?t want us. Unless we have money. Some states restrict firearms to such a degree that they are already functionally illegal, such as New Jersey. In Chicago, guns are pretty much illegal, which is why they don?t have gun violence there. Sure that is an option for states and city governments. The Fed can?t do that however. Easy solution: move to Chicago. Leave your flintlock pistol behind. >?Stop being cute and have the guts to answer the question, does the second amendment demand that retail sales of H-bombs be allowed or does it not? This only requires a yes or no answer? OK sure. A person can own an H-bomb legally, if that person can find a seller I suppose. It is more money than any individual is likely to own ever fortunately. >?Spike, what does that have to do with me? John do you not read your own posts? Are you really so self unaware and to not realize how you present yourself here? You are the kind of guy that causes us to hug the constitution. >? I said "I need a particular reason to hold someone in contempt". I certainly hold the current POTUS in contempt and I have a huge number of particular reasons for doing so. I'd love to state them in detail but you wouldn't like that? John for some time, some of us here have suspected that your posts are all part of an elaborate false-flag attack on liberals. You present yourself as one, but your arguments are so arrogant and play right into all the distasteful caricatures of the angry left, the notion you are playing false flag seems plausible and that you are a Trump supporter. You have had no leftward influence with your bitter, arrogant and often apparently unhinged screeds pretending to promote gun control and Trump hatred. Is it real? If you really are a gun-hating Trump-hating libertarian, your attempts at influencing others have been an epic fail. >>> The Electoral College protects us from all manner of evil. >?I'm not buying it? Ja, so get a constitutional amendment eliminating the EC. > We are discussing the US Constitution, which I have always believed in, and still do. >?Bible Thumpers believe that every word in their book is perfect in every way, do you feel the same about the US Constitution? I do not argue every word in the Constitution is perfect, nor in the bible, but that constitution has effectively protected us against people who would overthrow the government and grab power, resulting in the deaths of millions. We don?t have chaos on this continent, and we have had a civil war but nothing equivalent to the wars on the European continent. The constitution works. You have the option of forming the anti-constitution party however, and run for high office. Do let me encourage you to do that. >?The Electoral College gave us the 2 worst presidents in my lifetime? Ja, so start the anti-constitution party. The EC keeps state governments powerful and influential. Governors make the final call on this current shutdown, regardless of what POTUS says. > The Constitution gives you the right to vote against whoever you wish >?And on a whim the Constitution gives some votes 66.7 times as much power as other votes? So move to one of those states. Wasn?t that easy? It wasn?t a whim either. The USA is the United STATES of America, not the United People of America. States are their own governments. >?I don't know either. I don't know why putting a building on top of a mountain to talk to an invisible man in the sky is constitutional but putting a telescope on a mountain is not. Well actually I do know why, it's because the Constitution specifically mentions that you're free to engage in religion but it does NOT specifically mention that you're free to engage in astronomy? John K Clark We know there are those kinds of problems. John I do encourage you to run for office in the anti-constitution platform, promise to rewrite the constitution with no freedom of religion, since that is contained in the other freedom, no second amendment and you in charge. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 14:16:41 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 00:16:41 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <007401d61325$edd11a70$c9734f50$@rainier66.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> <007401d61325$edd11a70$c9734f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 23:07, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > >?The obvious example is not the journalists or the Jews but the criminals > with guns: why do the police and the courts keep pursuing them? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Criminals aren?t allowed to have guns. They gave up that right when they > became criminals. > If the police are not deterred by criminals with guns why would they be deterred by citizens who don?t believe themselves to be criminals (because they think the laws they are breaking are unconstitutional) with guns? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 15:10:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:10:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> <007401d61325$edd11a70$c9734f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001a01d61338$10df8a30$329e9e90$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Criminals aren?t allowed to have guns. They gave up that right when they became criminals. If the police are not deterred by criminals with guns why would they be deterred by citizens who don?t believe themselves to be criminals (because they think the laws they are breaking are unconstitutional) with guns? -- Stathis Papaioannou Several things are wrong with the premise. Police are deterred by criminals with guns, which is why they face so much danger when they must go into areas where guns are illegal: it is very dangerous there. Their risk of being shot is very high. Example: south Chicago. If police are asked to disarm citizens who have not committed a crime, many or most would likely refuse: that job is too dangerous. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 17:27:53 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 10:27:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He would seem to have rediscovered the concept of Planck scale. On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 1:28 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics > > Stephen Wolfram has announced the Wolfram Physics Project, based on a > new framework for fundamental physics. > > > https://turingchurch.net/stephen-wolfram-proposes-new-framework-for-fundamental-physics-629833845470 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 15 19:18:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 12:18:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001d01d6135a$9b799830$d26cc890$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics https://turingchurch.net/stephen-wolfram-proposes-new-framework-for-fundamental-physics-629833845470 >?He would seem to have rediscovered the concept of Planck scale. The thing to worry about is if he discovers this is all a digital simulation. If you really ponder Church-Turing, it doesn?t seem too far-fetched. But hey, perhaps it is a good thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 21:18:16 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 07:18:16 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <001a01d61338$10df8a30$329e9e90$@rainier66.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> <007401d61325$edd11a70$c9734f50$@rainier66.com> <001a01d61338$10df8a30$329e9e90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Apr 2020 at 01:12, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > Criminals aren?t allowed to have guns. They gave up that right when they > became criminals. > > If the police are not deterred by criminals with guns why would they be > deterred by citizens who don?t believe themselves to be criminals (because > they think the laws they are breaking are unconstitutional) with guns? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Several things are wrong with the premise. Police are deterred by > criminals with guns, which is why they face so much danger when they must > go into areas where guns are illegal: it is very dangerous there. Their > risk of being shot is very high. Example: south Chicago. > > > > If police are asked to disarm citizens who have not committed a crime, > many or most would likely refuse: that job is too dangerous. > If the police honestly thought they were being ordered to take illegal action hopefully they would refuse on principle. The problem you raised is when the police think the citizens are criminals but the citizens have a different opinion. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 21:24:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:24:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Why is there more matter than antimatter? Message-ID: Why is there more matter than antimatter when the properties of the 2 things seem symmetrical? Back in 1964 a particle called the "kaon" was discover that showed the symmetry between the two was not quite perfect and slightly favored matter over antimatter, but kaons are rare and that effect was much too slight to explain why the Big Bang didn't annihilate nearly all the matter in the universe. But now in today's issue of the journal Nature indications of a far larger discrepancy was found between neutrinos and antineutrinos, and matter is winning. More muon neutrinos are oscillating into electron neutrinos than muon antineutrinos are oscillating into electron antineutrinos. The evadens is only 3 sigma so there is still one chance in a thousand it's just a statistical fluke and 5 sigma (one in a million) is required to officially claim a discovery but it's still a pretty big deal. Constraint on the matter?antimatter symmetry-violating phase in neutrino oscillations John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 02:52:36 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 22:52:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:46 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The far left has a problem - it's all nurture and no nature. Assuming > that people of every achievement > level have the same aptitude level is just absurd, and leads to > educational practices that are equally > absurd. "If they are not getting better then we are doing something > wrong." WRONG. > > bill w > ### From a leftist point of view these practices are not absurd, they serve their political purpose splendidly. Education is just collateral damage here. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 02:55:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 22:55:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] nutrition 'science'?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 12:56 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Just forget everything you have read on this subject, according to this > article (except salt,folate for pregnant women, and vitamin D) > > > https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3076863/food-science-should-we-believe-anything-we-read > > I also assume that many studies have the defects we now know about > resulting from using significance tests a la Fisher. All Bayes all the > time? > > ### Not even salt. Salt restriction as a method for reducing cardiovascular morbidity has been debunked in the past few years. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 02:57:13 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 22:57:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What's up with the WHO? In-Reply-To: <20200401133030.Horde.Jc-6MzHF4VFrxrF6lZIf9qz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200401133030.Horde.Jc-6MzHF4VFrxrF6lZIf9qz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 6:53 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Has the > WHO become a proxy of the Chinese government? > > ### Yes. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 03:29:12 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 20:29:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] serene and calm Message-ID: John Clark wrote > On US soil they would need to get the state government to buy in, which is quite unlikely. "We'll try to stay serene and calm When Alabama gets the bomb!" Keith PS. The real problem is that not everyone is responsible enough to possess and use a gun. Some of them could not be trusted with a pair of scissors. I have thought a long time on how to solve this, but my proposals would be hard or impossible to implement. From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 03:35:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 23:35:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:46 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Given the ignorant a-holes attacking asian americans for no other reason > than this virus was first identified in Asia, perhaps the embassy wanted > filthy Americans to gtfo - for exactly the reason you noticed about how > well our culturally conditioned stupidity turns information into behavior. > ### Attacks on Americans of Asian descent motivated by fear of the Chinese virus? This sounds like a CNN lede. Did it actually happen? Not another fake hate crime story? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 03:15:23 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 23:15:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] virtual travel In-Reply-To: <009b01d60829$8a4c5cf0$9ee516d0$@rainier66.com> References: <009b01d60829$8a4c5cf0$9ee516d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > OK so now we can see that it isn?t a good idea to join a tourist stampede > and won?t be again in the easily foreseeable > ### Stampedes, ugh. Package tours must be the worst - speaking theoretically, I never joined one. Rent a car or motorbike, start touring German cities with castles in them. Cities with castles are generally more interesting than the ones without, in my experience. Don't hurry. Make sure to visit good restaurants on the way. In two weeks you can leisurely visit 6 - 7 castles, never bump into a crowd (well, Neuschwanstein can be busy sometimes) but still see amazing history and talk to actual Germans rather than just other American tourists. That's my recipe for a good time. [image: _DSC1208.JPG] [image: _DSC1220.JPG] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: _DSC1220.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 4117605 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: _DSC1208.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 5328683 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 03:42:03 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 23:42:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark: > > > > Does anybody still think the quarantine was an overreaction? > > > ### I think that putting most Americans under house arrest to control the > Chinese virus, instead of using standard methods of infection control, is > insane and stupid. > > Rafal > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 03:49:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 20:49:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virtual education, was: RE: virtual travel In-Reply-To: References: <00fb01d60835$ef8ea440$ceabecc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006001d613a2$08198c10$184ca430$@rainier66.com> Rafal posted a couple of beautiful photos that were held for moderation because of their size. I approved it but I don?t see it coming thru. While we wait for that, I took the liberty to paste the text and forward that, since it is written by one who knows. I have half a mind to go do it, because the DNA genealogy I do traced me back to the castle in Germany where the old ones lived in the 1750s. It will likely be most astonishing, as I grew up in Florida on the Space Coast where everything was new, then lived my adult life in California where our historic district consists of one building constructed in 1910. San Jose has a few buildings from the mission days of the 1700s, a piece of a wall, that sorta thing. I have never seen a building older than 300 yrs, but I am told all the European castles were already very old by 1700. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: spike at rainier66.com > OK so now we can see that it isn?t a good idea to join a tourist stampede and won?t be again in the easily foreseeable ### Stampedes, ugh. Package tours must be the worst - speaking theoretically, I never joined one. Rent a car or motorbike, start touring German cities with castles in them. Cities with castles are generally more interesting than the ones without, in my experience. Don't hurry. Make sure to visit good restaurants on the way. In two weeks you can leisurely visit 6 - 7 castles, never bump into a crowd (well, Neuschwanstein can be busy sometimes) but still see amazing history and talk to actual Germans rather than just other American tourists. That's my recipe for a good time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 04:02:47 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 00:02:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] it's your choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 11:00 AM David McFadzean via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Keith Henson via extropy-chat > > >> But most of us have ancestors from all over. > > > If you intend "us* to mean humans, I doubt it. The vast majority of > > Chinese are not of mixed origin. Neither are most of the Europeans. > > You may be surprised to learn that the identical ancestors point is only > 5000-15000 years ago. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_ancestors_point > > ### I completely disbelieve this estimate. Major races split between 100+ and 50 kyr ago, with zero gene flow between the most geographically isolated subgroups. There must be multiple Pygmy ancestors at 15 kyr who made absolutely no contributions to Aborigine or Amerind populations and vice versa. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 04:11:21 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 00:11:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Unemployment In-Reply-To: References: <010b01d60b8b$09d78fd0$1d86af70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > perhaps save civilization. > ### Oh, the doom! Unbearable! Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 04:26:24 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 00:26:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A puzzle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 8:16 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hospitals in the US and around the world are not as overwhelmed as they > might have been because emergency rooms report a 50% reduction in > non-COVID19 cases such as heart attacks, strokes, and even appendicitis. > It's reasonable to assume part of the reason for this is sick people are > reluctant to go to a hospital and possibly get infected, but that may not > be the entire answer. People are probably exercising less now, could they > have been doing too much before? > > Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone? > > > ### Heart attacks didn't "go" anywhere. People are still having heart attacks (MI) but because of the 24/7 breathless Chinese virus hype they are more scared of going to hospitals than usual, so many just wait at home until the pain is over. This isn't good, since failing to get promptly treated for MI does increase your mortality and morbidity. OTOH, crazies are also more scared of hospitals so they aren't clogging up EDs with their made up diseases. Amazingly, I haven't seen a conversion disorder patient in .... 3 weeks? Wow, in normal times I see conversion disorder (fake seizures, paralysis) many times a week. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 04:56:36 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:56:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d6135a$9b799830$d26cc890$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:06 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > From the FAQ: > > Q: What does your model say about the simulation argument? > > A: The model implies that there is a definite computational rule that > determines every aspect of what happens in our universe. If the > universe is to be considered a ?simulation? this would suggest that > the rule is being determined by something outside the system, and > presumably in an ?intentional? way. It is difficult enough to extend > the notion of intentionality far beyond the specifics of what humans > do, making it unrealistic to attribute it to something beyond even the > universe. In addition, the concept of rule-space relativity implies > that in a sense all possible rules are equivalent, at least to an > appropriate observer, and therefore there would be nothing for an > entity setting up the simulation to ?intentionally decide??since any > rule they could choose would appear to be the same universe to > observers embedded within it. > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://turingchurch.net/stephen-wolfram-proposes-new-framework-for-fundamental-physics-629833845470 > > > > > > > > >?He would seem to have rediscovered the concept of Planck scale. > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing to worry about is if he discovers this is all a digital simulation. If you really ponder Church-Turing, it doesn?t seem too far-fetched. But hey, perhaps it is a good thing. > > > > > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 04:56:52 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 00:56:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The USA is number one! In-Reply-To: <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d61104$529312c0$f7b93840$@rainier66.com> <013501d6110c$a54d3ab0$efe7b010$@rainier66.com> <001601d61110$b59f4030$20ddc090$@rainier66.com> <008c01d6119e$b6fedfb0$24fc9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Hospitals are under enormous economic pressure as their customer load is > way down: elective surgery people are deciding they really don?t need a > butt-lift all that badly. Hospitals are suffering from low customer load. > ### Hospitals are hemorrhaging money because of all the insane overreaction to the Chinese virus, with elective surgeries eliminated by fiat, in expectation of a flood of Covid cases that have not materialized. And the overreaction happened in part because of overestimates of mortality. And the overestimates happened, aside from CDC incompetence, due to Chinese misinformation. A few Chicom lies, some of them chaotic, some of them well-crafted, dealt a 10 trillion dollar blow to the US. This rivals the boxcutters of 9/11 for the best damage-inflicted-to-weapon-price ratio. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 05:07:11 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 01:07:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Moon Treaty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 7:19 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > BREAKING NEWS: The Trump administration has just repudiated the Moon > Treaty. The Executive Order of > > April 6 states that "The Secretary of State shall object to any > attempt by any other state or international organization to treat the > Moon Agreement as reflecting or otherwise expressing customary > international law." In doing so, the administration has chosen the > path of dominance over the > path of cooperation. ### Note the language "path of dominance over the path of cooperation". The journos who wrote the report hate America with a vengeance. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 06:07:20 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 02:07:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <007b01d6125c$cd415370$67c3fa50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > And that's why millions of Canadians were murdered last year.... oh > wait.... > > ### Yes, you may have no guns and things can still turn out OK. But what if they don't? Canadians may count themselves lucky but the equally-gunless Armenians, kulaks, Ukrainians, Jews died helplessly. And the Falun Gong, butchered, their hearts and kidneys are still alive in the bodies of transplant recipients. That harvest would be so much more difficult if they had guns. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 06:19:18 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 02:19:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:11 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: The capacity for violence is like a currency accepted and appreciated not > just by a single country or government but by all living things both known > and unknown. > > ### Yes! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 05:29:46 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 01:29:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] virus scenario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:37 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > But I have followed gene engineering for decades. I can state > from such personal knowledge that making this virus in a lab is beyond > the state of the art. Not really far beyond the state of the art but > it is at least 5 years out and more likely ten years. The showstopper > would be designing the entry protein. ### Making the C-19 virus is trivially easy, if you have a library of viral samples from various species. Just PCR, ligate, package and infect. No need to evolve new proteins. I used to think that the Chinese virus happened naturally, was collected from an infected wild animal and then accidentally transferred to humans at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. However, according to recent reports the WIV has for years been generating multiple new SARS variants for research purposes. Furthermore, the work was done in a biosafety level 2 (BSL-2) lab, rather than in the BSL-4 lab, which makes it incredibly sloppy and dangerous. So the Chinese virus is actually CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus. China is a great nation in the grip of an evil force. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 05:48:19 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 01:48:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 1:17 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > But ?the right to bear arms? does not protect other rights, as you > claimed, unless there is an additional right to use the arms against agents > of the state > ### If, as a matter of fact, you bear arms, you do not necessarily need rights to get what you want. Facts trump rights, quite often. The Catholics didn't have the right to gun down Englishmen during the Troubles, they didn't have big numbers, didn't have advanced weaponry but they had guns (many of them sent from loving relatives in the US), they had C4 and see what happened - the mighty government of Her Majesty had to parlay for peace. Asymmetric warfare is a thing. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Apr 16 08:00:01 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 09:00:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <825d4ad2-da7e-b842-1442-06b6d3d8a7cf@zaiboc.net> If this thread is going to continue, would you mind renaming it to something more accurate, please? I don't mind deleting posts about american politics, but I do mind when they have misleading subject lines, and I have to keep reading them to decide if they are interesting or not. Thanks. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 09:48:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 05:48:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 12:28 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> >> > *On Behalf Of *John Clark: >> >> >> >> Does anybody still think the quarantine was an overreaction? >> >> >> ### I think that putting most Americans under house arrest to control the >> Chinese virus, instead of using standard methods of infection control, is >> insane and stupid. >> > So you think you are the world authority on this and understand how viruses spread better than virtually every expert epidemiologist in the world. I think quarantine *IS *the standard method of infection control. And yesterday alone 2,482 Americans died of COVID-19, without a quarantine it would be 10 or 20 times higher. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 13:24:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:24:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A puzzle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007601d613f2$4b9b9870$e2d2c950$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 9:26 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Rafal Smigrodzki Subject: Re: [ExI] A puzzle On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 8:16 AM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: Hospitals in the US and around the world are not as overwhelmed as they might have been because emergency rooms report a 50% reduction in non-COVID19 cases such as heart attacks, strokes, and even appendicitis. It's reasonable to assume part of the reason for this is sick people are reluctant to go to a hospital and possibly get infected, but that may not be the entire answer. People are probably exercising less now, could they have been doing too much before? Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone? ### Heart attacks didn't "go" anywhere. People are still having heart attacks (MI) but because of the 24/7 breathless Chinese virus hype they are more scared of going to hospitals than usual, so many just wait at home until the pain is over. This isn't good, since failing to get promptly treated for MI does increase your mortality and morbidity. OTOH, crazies are also more scared of hospitals so they aren't clogging up EDs with their made up diseases. Amazingly, I haven't seen a conversion disorder patient in .... 3 weeks? Wow, in normal times I see conversion disorder (fake seizures, paralysis) many times a week. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 13:29:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:29:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A puzzle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008301d613f3$151cd4c0$3f567e40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone? ### Heart attacks didn't "go" anywhere. People are still having heart attacks (MI) but because of the 24/7 breathless Chinese virus hype they are more scared of going to hospitals than usual, so many just wait at home until the pain is over. This isn't good, since failing to get promptly treated for MI does increase your mortality and morbidity. Rafal Alternative explanation: the heart attacks are being counted as Covid-19 deaths rather than their co-morbidities. Dr. Birx has honestly admitted that patients who die with Covid-19 are counted as dying of Covid-19. https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1247669966939262977 I understand the motive for doing that, but it has consequences. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 13:53:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:53:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] pangolin? Message-ID: <00ab01d613f6$781dcdb0$68596910$@rainier66.com> A Kennedy post from a few days ago has been rattling around in my brain like a golf ball in a 55 gallon drum. There was a piece of DNA from a pangolin and bat DNA in Covid-19? Is there a resource somewhere written in language a space guy can understand? That is astonishing, and even suggests something done in a lab. Or what if? mosquito bites pangolin, bat devours mosquito, somehow the virus mutates inside bat, bat perishes, cage cleaner takes dead bats to wet market, humans devouring bat soup catch virys, Chinese cover it up, WHO covers for Chinese, virus spreads to every country on the globe, American press leverages the tragedy to political advantage, hospitals overcount for financial reasons, economies across the globe suffer a crushing blow, the consequences of which will be felt for a generation. Mr. Kennedy, how can pangolin DNA and bad DNA get in that virus together? Is that what you posted earlier? Or did I misunderstand (entirely possible I goofed that completely) or misinterpret? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 14:07:20 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:07:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There are nearly 300,000 obesity-attributable deaths per year in the US. Cancer: ~600,000 Tobacco related (actually, just for cigarettes here): 500,000 Alcohol-related: ~100,000 Are these not bigger health crises? Particularly cigarettes. You'd probably be pretty shocked if they were selling the novel coronavirus at 7-Eleven. And much like the virus, tobacco can harm those besides the user (the 'infected'). And what's worse, imagine if selling coronavirus was a MASSIVE industry worth billions. And it heavily lobbied the government at every turn, and even had former execs in government and vice versa. And the industry did its best to hide evidence of deadliness, and did not care about the deadliness, but just sat on their fat piles of death money. I fail to see why people are freaking out about the virus when they have been so silent about issues that--by the numbers--are far worse. And yes, many of those tobacco-related deaths are (surprise surprise) respiratory problems that may even (gasp!) require ventilators! The difference is, those ventilators might be needed indefinitely--not just for two weeks. The other day an elderly woman yelled at us for being too close in line; we were over 10 feet away. She was buying 4 packs of cigarettes. When I pointed this out, she said "that's probably why I won't get the virus" and that "I also used to ride my bike behind the mosquito sprayer truck". Come to think of it, it seems like lack of education is probably killing a lot of people as well... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 14:11:24 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:11:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020, 12:15 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:46 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Given the ignorant a-holes attacking asian americans for no other reason >> than this virus was first identified in Asia, perhaps the embassy wanted >> filthy Americans to gtfo - for exactly the reason you noticed about how >> well our culturally conditioned stupidity turns information into behavior. >> > > ### Attacks on Americans of Asian descent motivated by fear of the Chinese > virus? This sounds like a CNN lede. Did it actually happen? Not another > fake hate crime story? > So "fake news"? If i read that a bar in houston's chinatown is giving away free beer upon showing a receipt from any of the local chinatown businesses because people are avoiding that part of the city, out of ignorance and fear... is it so difficult to imagine misdirected frustration could turn violent? I've seen fb posts "fuck china" from people who i know haven't been more than 50 miles from their rural American home their whole life. But you're right, i wasn't personally attacked and was not firsthand accounting any violence towards asians. From the position that you can't trust news, no gay people have been beaten or killed for being gay and nobody is ever robbed or killed in cities, and I've never seen anyone die from covid. I lead a very privileged life where nothing interesting happens... i guess i'm good with that. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 14:19:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:19:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <00ec01d6132f$e8f96f20$baec4d60$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> <00c401d612ab$705b0850$511118f0$@rainier66.com> <00ec01d6132f$e8f96f20$baec4d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The second amendment is about the militia, not about defending homes, > farms, hunting, crime, any of that.* Then the second amendment isn't about much. The only real militias are the National Guard and the Navy militia, the others are just a gaggle of white supremacist nut jobs marching around and pretending to be soldiers. And just because some jerkwater politician writes a law that says every male between 17 and 45 is a member of a militia does not make that a reality, most males between 17 and 45 have never even heard of a militia much less think they're in one. > >?I asked this before but maybe this time you'll give me an answer, do you > think the second amendment has limits or do you think making machine guns > illegal is unconstitutional? > > > > *> States can do that legally, ja. * > So does that mean the Constitution is NOT the law of the land and states are free to ignore it, or does it mean the word "arms" in the second amendment is not a synonym for "anything that can kill lots of people"? > *> The second amendment refers to what the Fed can do. Militias do not > need machine guns.* > Why not? The US Army needs machine guns and has them, if militias don't and are on the same side then they can't help the army much, and if they're on different sides the professional army could push militias out of the way pretty easily. >> So we're right back to the retail sale of H-Bombs question which you >> refuse to answer? > > > > *> I don?t refuse to answer: anyone with those kinds of resources has the > option of buying an island in international waters and going ahead with it. > On US soil they would need to get the state government to buy in*, > So before the Second Amendment can go into effect a state must put their seal of approval on it? Does that work for the First Amendment too, would it be OK with the Constitution if California put anyone in jail who said something unflattering about their Democratic governor? If so then the Bill of Rights isn't worth much. > *> They would likely need to deal with the international courts on the > island, but we are talking about hundreds of billions of dollars to get one > of these in any case,* > If the nuclear industry were starting from zero that would be true but it isn't. And the beauty of the Teller?Ulam H-Bomb design and the reason the number of thermonuclear warheads increased enormously in the late 1950's and early 60's is it allowed you to make multi megaton weapons very cheaply, you only needed a small amount of relatively expensive Plutonium and and a even smaller amount of Tritium, most of the bomb is made of cheap U238, deuterium, and Lithium. And these days Plutonium is cheaper than it has ever been because commercial power reactors crank out the stuff by the ton as a byproduct of operation. I imagine you could make a 10 megaton bomb for about a million dollars, less if you started mass producing the damn things. And because of this it's not just megatons that are cheap, megadeath is dirt cheap too, just pennies per death. But if H-Bombs are "arms" and we follow the Constitution I guess that's the way we have to go. > *John are you worried someone is going to do this? * > I'm worried that somebody is crazy enough to think retail sales of H-Bombs is not a crazy idea because his belief system is inflexible and remains static regardless of what new information is received. > >>?an individual state could ignore it and abolish freedom of the press, >> or decree that any sort of firearm is illegal even flintlocks, or >> reintroduce slavery, or make their governor king, or do anything else they >> wanted? >> > > > *> In a sense all of these things are possible. * > Then the Constitution is a joke, and a joke in very poor taste. But retail sales of H-bombs is an even worse joke and there is something fundamentally wrong with any political philosophy that rates it as a good idea. > *> This is the beauty of our system: we have 50 competing laboratories for > government. * > But there were ethical concerns so limits were placed on how human laboratory specimens could be treated. The first 3 words of the Constitution are "We the people" not "We the states", and it claims to grant those people certain unalienable Rights. If it can't do that then the Constitution is a fraud. > >> does the second amendment demand that retail sales of H-bombs be >> allowed or does it not? This only requires a yes or no answer? > > > > *> OK sure. A person can own an H-bomb legally, * > Wow! If your political philosophy leads you to this point then it's time to reassess your political philosophy. *> John for some time, some of us here have suspected that your posts are > all part of an elaborate false-flag attack on liberals. You present > yourself as one,* > No, I present myself as a small l libertarian, not to be confused with a very silly American political party with a similar sounding name. I'm probably the most libertarian member of this list, I say that because I seem to be the one most upset that the most ferociously anti-libertarian president in American history is now leading the nation. But as much as I love libertarianism I fully admit I love the scientific method even more. > > your bitter, arrogant and often apparently unhinged screeds > If I'm being unhinged I don't see why that would offend you, after all your Commander In Chief has done unhinged things every single day for the last three and a half years and that doesn't seem to bother you one bit; the latest example is defunding the World Health Organization in the middle of the largest global pandemic seen in a century. Idiocy of that colossal magnitude would have once been the talk of the land, but it's so common now it's hardly worth mentioning. Stupidity and monumental incompetence is the new normal. > *your attempts at influencing others have been an epic fail.* > I say what I think, that's the only skill I have and I know it doesn't work very well. Politicians are more successful because they never say what they think, they say what people want to hear, but I don't have that skill. >> ?And on a whim the Constitution gives some votes 66.7 times as much >> power as other votes? > > > *>So move to one of those states. * > Why should I have to move because of a idiotic whim that makes no sense? And besides if California and Wyoming swapped populations you'd end up in the exact same ridiculous situation. And why on earth should that even be necessary, why should some citizens be given more rights than others to begin with? What is the rationale for believing a Wyoming voter is 66.7 times wiser than a California voter? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 14:32:59 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 09:32:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pangolin? In-Reply-To: <00ab01d613f6$781dcdb0$68596910$@rainier66.com> References: <00ab01d613f6$781dcdb0$68596910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1D3F4F4E-6F0B-4804-817F-5C7A5045EF69@gmail.com> Pangolins are natural reservoirs of Coronavirus anyway. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/science-environment-52048195 Pangolin: ?Most pangolins are nocturnal animals which use their well-developed sense of smell to find insects. ? Compare bats: ?Many bats are insectivores, and most of the rest are frugivores (fruit-eaters). A few species feed on animals other than insects; for example, the vampire bats feed on blood. Most bats are nocturnal? Thought experiment: Corona bat, of fruit or insect variety is eating some insects around fruit tree and poops. Pangolin walks in it when going to eat the same insects. We know fecal-oral is a transmission route. Now pangolin gets trafficked into wet market. SR Ballard > On Apr 16, 2020, at 8:53 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > A Kennedy post from a few days ago has been rattling around in my brain like a golf ball in a 55 gallon drum. > > There was a piece of DNA from a pangolin and bat DNA in Covid-19? Is there a resource somewhere written in language a space guy can understand? That is astonishing, and even suggests something done in a lab. > > Or what if? mosquito bites pangolin, bat devours mosquito, somehow the virus mutates inside bat, bat perishes, cage cleaner takes dead bats to wet market, humans devouring bat soup catch virys, Chinese cover it up, WHO covers for Chinese, virus spreads to every country on the globe, American press leverages the tragedy to political advantage, hospitals overcount for financial reasons, economies across the globe suffer a crushing blow, the consequences of which will be felt for a generation. > > Mr. Kennedy, how can pangolin DNA and bad DNA get in that virus together? Is that what you posted earlier? Or did I misunderstand (entirely possible I goofed that completely) or misinterpret? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 14:38:10 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:38:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:10 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I fail to see why people are freaking out about the virus when they have > been so silent about issues that--by the numbers--are far worse.* Because deaths from cigarettes and obesity are not increasing exponentially, deaths from this novel virus are. The US didn't get its first death from COVID-19 until March 1. Yesterday April 15 2,482 Americans died of it. And nobody is sure when it will stop. And you expect business as usual? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 14:38:36 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:38:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:10 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There are nearly 300,000 obesity-attributable deaths per year in the US. > Cancer: ~600,000 > Tobacco related (actually, just for cigarettes here): 500,000 > Alcohol-related: ~100,000 > > Are these not bigger health crises? > They're certainly killing more people. > I fail to see why people are freaking out about the virus when they have > been so silent about issues that--by the numbers--are far worse. > With the exception of cancer, in some case, those are all either conscious decisions or the result of lifestyle choices. Sure, second-hand smoke affects others--especially the children of smokers--but, for the most part, the victims accept the risk of their behavior. That's not the case with COVID. And since COVID was novel we really had no idea how bad it would be. We fear the unknown. > Come to think of it, it seems like lack of education is probably killing a > lot of people as well... > Stupidity kills people, too. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 14:53:36 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:53:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John, as usual you are being over dramatic here. Current estimates for this outbreak in the US are at bad flu season levels. Many people end up asymptomatic, and most people who do not have underlying comorbidities or who are not elderly (who frequently have 1 or more comorbidities) recover without the need for hospitalization or ventilation. We're going to have much larger problems to deal with if we don't start to reopen the economy once we're on the far right side of the curve. The current hide in your hole scenario is not sustainable past the end of May, and quite frankly I don't expect people to put it up with much longer. They are already protesting in Michigan over the particularly draconian measures put in place by the idiot currently running that state. I'm not trivializing anyone personally impacted by this disease, and every death is a great loss, but we have to make decisions at a societal level here, and keeping the entire economy shut is not sustainable. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:43 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:10 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I fail to see why people are freaking out about the virus when they >> have been so silent about issues that--by the numbers--are far worse.* > > > Because deaths from cigarettes and obesity are not increasing > exponentially, deaths from this novel virus are. The US didn't get its > first death from COVID-19 until March 1. Yesterday April 15 2,482 > Americans died of it. And nobody is sure when it will stop. And you expect > business as usual? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 15:00:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:00:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] serene and calm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 11:32 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: John Clark wrote > > > On US soil they would need to get the state government to buy in, > which is quite unlikely. > I didn't write that Spike did. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 15:26:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:26:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:58 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John, as usual you are being over dramatic here. Current estimates for > this outbreak in the US are at bad flu season levels. * > Well, in 1918 we had a rather bad flu season and it started in early March just like this one, in less than a year it killed 675,000 Americans, ten times the number that died in WW1, and it made tens of millions of them sick. Worldwide it killed between 50 and 100 million people. And all "current estimates for this outbreak" are based on the assumption that no political leader does anything as colossally stupid as stopping the quarantine way too early. But I can think of one political leader who just might be that stupid. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 15:35:27 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:35:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This is not the Spanish flu. The CFR for COVID-19 is MUCH lower. It is also not killing most people below 60. I think you already know this though. I'd rather have the economy reopen in June, have at risk groups continue to shelter in place, delay reopening extremely large gatherings like concert venues and stadiums, and get on with things before we end up in a global depression that may result in A LOT more deaths once people and nation states start scrambling for diminishing resources. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:28 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:58 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> John, as usual you are being over dramatic here. Current estimates for >> this outbreak in the US are at bad flu season levels. * >> > > Well, in 1918 we had a rather bad flu season and it started in early March > just like this one, in less than a year it killed 675,000 Americans, ten > times the number that died in WW1, and it made tens of millions of them > sick. Worldwide it killed between 50 and 100 million people. And all > "current estimates for this outbreak" are based on the assumption that no > political leader does anything as colossally stupid as stopping the > quarantine way too early. But I can think of one political leader who just > might be that stupid. > > John K Clark > >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 15:41:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 08:41:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> <00c401d612ab$705b0850$511118f0$@rainier66.com> <00ec01d6132f$e8f96f20$baec4d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012301d61405$8fdc2690$af9473b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? The second amendment is about the militia, not about defending homes, farms, hunting, crime, any of that. >?Then the second amendment isn't about much? On the contrary. It is because we have second amendment rights that we still have rights. >? The only real militias are the National Guard and the Navy militia? On the contrary. Read the legal definition of militia, 10US code 246, b.2. unorganized militia. If you dispute the US legal code, your disagreement isn?t with me, it is with the legal system of the US. 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia: composition and classes * U.S. Code * Notes prev | next (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b)The classes of the militia are? (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. >? the others are just a gaggle of white supremacist? John are you resorting to racism now? The others are every race in the USA between the ages of 17 and 45. >?nut jobs? John you are the one arguing we don?t need a second amendment, not those you label as nut jobs. >?marching around? The militias do not march. >?and pretending to be soldiers? Nor do they pretend to be soldiers. >?just because some jerkwater politician writes a law that says every male between 17 and 45 is a member of a militia does not make that a reality? That makes it the law. If you disagree with it, an option is to run for office and work to change the law. Until then, it is the law. John I do urge to stick the topics on which you have actual demonstrated knowledge. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 15:42:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:42:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] psychosomatics Message-ID: All this about not touching your face has made me aware of just how often I do that. Furthermore, I think my nose itches far more than it usually does, although I never paid any attention to that and so I have no data. But it strongly suggests that my itching is psychosomatic. Now if I can just find out how astronauts deal with nose itching while wearing a space helmet maybe I can get on with my life. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 15:58:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 08:58:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat ? >?I'd rather have the economy reopen in June, have at risk groups continue to shelter in place, delay reopening extremely large gatherings like concert venues and stadiums, and get on with things before we end up in a global depression that may result in A LOT more deaths once people and nation states start scrambling for diminishing resources? Dylan Hi Dylan, ja, I have been pondering this for some time. I don?t know from viruses, but I have heard they can be preserved in a dry form somehow, like a powder in a vial. Virus hipsters is this correct? If so, a terrorist with a vial of the stuff could be released over a packed stadium or rock concert, infecting huge numbers of proles simultaneously, sort of a more modern version of anthrax. But this could be worse than anthrax because of its ability to spread. What I don?t know is if Covid-19 can be preserved in a dry form. I damn sure hope it cannot. I live close enough to a football stadium that I can sometimes hear the crowds cheering. Imagine a terrorist set up an automated quadrotor drone, the cheap toy ones, with some kind of system that would disperse something visible, such as flour. She programs it to fly over the stadium, release the flour, the fans panic and trample each other to get away from it. That is an example of a terrorist attack which could be done with little expense, risk to the bad guy, technical expertise or collaboration. It would cause sports fans to trample each other even if this virus cannot be preserved in dry form, for those being trampled do not know that, nor do I. I will offer that I will refuse to go to stadium events in the foreseeable. (Full disclosure: I was present at the Led Zeppelin ?concert? in Tampa Florida 3 June 1977 (as the designated driver (oh mercy (details available on request.))) Every country in the world now has access to Covid-19. This could singlehandedly kill stadium events of all kinds. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 16:51:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 09:51:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] science teacher Message-ID: <002e01d6140f$44796640$cd6c32c0$@rainier66.com> My former college roommate was an electrical engineer but went into management, rose up thru the ranks, earned a PhD in operations research, retired, took up teaching 7th grade science at a small private school in Tennessee just east of Chattanooga (he's that kind of guy.) He was hit by the tornado Monday but his house was OK, broke down some trees and minor structural damage to a toolshed from a falling branch. While I was on his Face Book page, I saw this, written a coupla weeks ago: This year I began a grand adventure as a 7th grade science teacher at Collegedale Academy. Right after Christmas break we were studying infectious diseases. So I began sharing with my classes the data from a novel Coronavirus in China. This was a month before the WHO designated it COVID-19. My students kept asking me when I was going to stop talking about it. As soon as we finish the chapter on infectious disease, I stopped talking about it. Just before spring break I gave one last update: WHO had designated COVID-19 a pandemic and the NBA had suspended all games. We also told the students that they were getting a 2 week spring break and that they needed to take all their books and journals home in case we needed to switch to online classes. This week we have been putting all of our classes online. Today we had an optional practice zoom meeting with my home room. Most of my students participated. Monday we begin classes online. The adventure grand continues. spike again: Cool, we are having mixed success with online learning here, but I would call it more success than failure. Plenty of both. Our scouts are doing well with it: we are still doing ranks and badges over email and video. The schools are reporting mostly successful results, with a small percentage of students who have never logged on or demonstrated any form of participation in the online program since 17 March, in spite of the school offering free ChromeBooks and internet to anyone who wants them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 17:08:53 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:08:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) Message-ID: John Clark wrote: > I didn't write that Spike did. Sorry for the misattribution. Spike mixed up me and Robert Kennedy recently. Keith From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 17:24:15 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:24:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020, 10:43 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:10 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I fail to see why people are freaking out about the virus when they >> have been so silent about issues that--by the numbers--are far worse.* > > > Because deaths from cigarettes and obesity are not increasing > exponentially, deaths from this novel virus are. > Completely ignoring a huge piece of information--covid pretty much has a maximum death count. 2 million in US with no distancing (so they say). The deaths from tobacco are many fold higher and have no sign of ending any time soon. You're acting like covid could exponentially increase forever. You understand the models, yes? There is a peak. There is a highest estimate for deaths. For tobacco, no such peak--just an ever climbing slope. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 17:26:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 12:26:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prisons Message-ID: Many places are sending those in prison home, esp. those who committed drug crimes or other nonviolent offenses, including just possession of small amounts. Get tough with crime politicians passed laws to jail many of these drug offenders (esp. blacks here in MS) only to find that they could not afford to keep them in prison (and so in MS they just reduced services etc.) I wish all states would decriminilize possession asap. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 17:46:13 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 12:46:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] nose continued Message-ID: I wonder what effect the 'don't touch your face' has on those young people who spend much time spelunking for ossified mucus ore in nasal caves to dig out. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 17:51:21 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:51:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 16, 2020, at 10:35 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > Many places are sending those in prison home, esp. those who committed drug crimes or other nonviolent offenses, including just possession of small amounts. Get tough with crime politicians passed laws to jail many of these drug offenders (esp. blacks here in MS) only to find that they could not afford to keep them in prison (and so in MS they just reduced services etc.) > > I wish all states would decriminilize possession asap. Agreed. And let?s consider abolishing prisons too: https://c4ss.org/content/30340 By the way, I live in Washington, where recreational cannabis use is legal (for those over 21). Yet folks here are still shocked when I advocate decriminalizing all recreational drugs. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 17:57:53 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 10:57:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002001d61418$8dccace0$a96606a0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat John Clark wrote: > I didn't write that Spike did. Sorry for the misattribution. Spike mixed up me and Robert Kennedy recently. Keith _______________________________________________ Owww, dang, Keith my apologies sir. If I am conflated with another, I don't mind a bit if the person with whom I am conflated is either you or Robert Kennedy. Or Rafal, or Adrian, or a number of our other gentlemanly hipsters. Someone, I thought it was Robert, wrote a comment which worries me. It was about creating a virus in the lab. That person (Robert or you, I think it was Robert) commented that this technology was beyond the current state of the art but is conceivable in 5 to 10 years. This is scarcely comforting, for my notion is that any technology which is 5 to 10 years away might happen unexpectedly. Technology does stuff like that. My formative years were misspent in proximity to the space program, where that whole stunt of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely was a technology that feels like it was ripped from the 1990s and plunked down in the 1960s, an achievement which still feels 30 years ahead of its time. So it is really out of the question that this happened 5 to 10 years ahead of schedule? That some prole figured out how to somehow splice bat DNA and pangolin DNA into a virus, and the lab safety protocol was inadequate and she somehow caught it and gave it to others? Or that it evolved somehow in a bat and the bat was fed to a soup-devourer, who then gave it to others? Both of those horrifying scenarios feel plausible to me, and considering that both the virus research lab and the bat soup purveyor were within walking distance of each other suggests to me one of those two scenarios has the ring of truth. Robert and Keith, do guide us here, lads. spike From atymes at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 18:09:48 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:09:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 8:38 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is also not killing most people below 60. > I note that the average age of members of the House of Representatives is about 59, and for Senators it's about 63. As has happened before, there appears to be some confusion between the needs of the public and the personal needs of Congress when drafting and passing legislation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 18:24:28 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:24:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:57 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Agreed. And let?s consider abolishing prisons too: > > https://c4ss.org/content/30340 > That link kept teasing but didn't actually answer the question, "And replace them with what?" So, if you're promoting that point of view, I ask that question of you. Let us say there is an individual who routinely burgles houses for a living. What is to be done to make said individual stop doing this? The court and penal system is presented as a preferred alternative to aggrieved people lynching and executing a suspected or alleged burglar. How shall we deter murder - especially deliberate assassination by private individuals accountable to no one or almost no one? What is to be done about rapists? And that's just some of the basic types of crime. Drugs might be decriminalized, hate crimes might result in counseling (or lead to an assessment of mental disorders), but these measures by themselves are a far cry from abolishing all prisons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 19:45:02 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 15:45:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <012301d61405$8fdc2690$af9473b0$@rainier66.com> References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> <00c401d612ab$705b0850$511118f0$@rainier66.com> <00ec01d6132f$e8f96f20$baec4d60$@rainier66.com> <012301d61405$8fdc2690$af9473b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >>? The only real militias are the National Guard and the Navy militia? > > > *> On the contrary. Read the legal definition of militia, 10US code 246, > b.2.* > Spike, I'd rather have my teeth pulled. Just because some brainless political bozo from Bumblefuck Arkansas writes something called "10US code 246, b.2." doesn't change the reality that most males between the ages of 17 and 45 have never even heard of a militia much less think they're in one. And as a practical matter the aforementioned males have no need to ever read an obscure document like "10US code 246, b.2." nor does any other human being. I pity the poor trees that have pointlessly given their lives so millions of copies of "10US code 246, b.2." that nobody will ever read could be printed out that I'm sure must exist and be gathering mold in a government warehouse somewhere. > >? the others are just a gaggle of white supremacist? > > > *> John are you resorting to racism now?* > I'm saying I'd be embarrassed to be associated with any "unorganized militia" that actually exist in something other than a politician's mind, and I'm surprised and disappointed you don't feel the same way. >>?just because some jerkwater politician writes a law that says every male >> between 17 and 45 is a member of a militia does not make that a reality? > > > > *> That makes it the law. * > And with that law and some cream you could have peaches and cream,... if you had some peaches. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 20:24:17 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:24:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8FE1F2E7-D036-40BF-B80A-8EC273AB41B7@gmail.com> On Apr 16, 2020, at 11:27 AM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:57 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Agreed. And let?s consider abolishing prisons too: >> >> https://c4ss.org/content/30340 > > That link kept teasing but didn't actually answer the question, "And replace them with what?" So, if you're promoting that point of view, I ask that question of you. > > Let us say there is an individual who routinely burgles houses for a living. What is to be done to make said individual stop doing this? The court and penal system is presented as a preferred alternative to aggrieved people lynching and executing a suspected or alleged burglar. > > How shall we deter murder - especially deliberate assassination by private individuals accountable to no one or almost no one? > > What is to be done about rapists? I believe the starting point for this would be to ask two fundamental questions: 1. Is imprisonment moral per se? 2. Does imprisonment actually achieve positive results? I agree that the first question is going to be tougher because of disagreements over morality/ethics. However, the second question seems like one folks here could make some headway on. A subsidiary question to my second one is: Does prison achieve better positive results against other means of dealing with crime? (A good reason to consider this is the overall high cost of prison in purely monetary terms. For instance, imprisoning the serial burglar might be far far more costly in monetary terms than the monetary loss from their burglaries. There might other factors to consider here, as I know as a person who?s been burglarized before.) > And that's just some of the basic types of crime. Drugs might be decriminalized, hate crimes might result in counseling (or lead to an assessment of mental disorders), but these measures by themselves are a far cry from abolishing all prisons. I wasn?t identifying the two positions (decriminalizing victimless crimes and prison abolition, respectively). I introduced the abolitionist merely as something to consider. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Thu Apr 16 20:22:18 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 16:22:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] pangolin? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b0a210dc348c6c057545aa7458e8e96@ultimax.com> First, you should know that *every* infectious disease of mankind ultimately originated inside some other animal. This is called /zoonosis/. Every one. This phenomenon is at least as old as the domestication of animals (which is way older than agriculture), and may go all the way back to our hunter-gatherer origins. Secondly, like I said, it's not DNA, it's RNA. *Whole* different kettle of fish. A single helix (RNA) doesn't have error correction like a double helix, that's a big part of the problem. RNA virii mutate like crazy compared to DNA ones. Third, in answer to your scenario, Spike, no, not something simple like just eating. Not by an oral route. SARS-CoV-2 is a wimpy virus, so stomach acid would kill it immediately. Hell, *soap* kills it *instantly*. Fourth, yes. In my original post, I posited a "crossover event" that happened within a living liquid milieu. The bat virus's genome got a contribution from a virus belonging to some other creature. The result is still predominantly bat, but now supplemented with additional non-bat-origin functionality making it even deadlier. That's what I meant by /in vivo/ (inside a living cell) or /in vitro/ (technically means, "within glass" but functionally means, "in a laboratory"). We know for a fact that crossover events happen. H1N1 is an example. It started in birds (ducks) and then crossed over to swine (pigs). As everybody knows, ducks and pigs live cheek by jowl in SE Asia. Once something's in pigs, it's a very small jump to us. I think most of you are aware of how much pigs are used in bio-research as analogues for humans. And, speaking of cheek by jowl, it seems unwise to put a bio-lab a stone's throw from a wet market. If it was me, I'd put all such activity in the middle of the Sahara, or the Gobi Desert, or whatever. An asteroid once that becomes available. The part of the question I have no feel for yet is, could this have happened "naturally" (without malignant intent) due to simple stupidity / bad luck / bad practice. Like one very unlucky sloppy worker with no safety culture in a milieu of retribution for bringing up a problem, managed to get him/herself infected by two different pathogens at once. Once a virion manages to unlock a passage thru cell walls (that's what the ACE2 receptor is) it sheds its protective outer sheath, opening the RNA directly to the cell's fluids. If a different virion happened to do that at the same time, then two naked strands of genetic material could have had themselves a wet party. Remember what Napoleon is said to have said: "Never attribute to malevolence what can be explained by stupidity." Or there's a wonderful line that I never forgot in the TV thriller /The Americans/ in which the "science attache" Oleg (same actor who portraying the GRU officer in the current season of /Homeland/) says to the FBI guy Stan: "I graduated from Moscow Bauman Technical Institute." (The Russkiis' top STEM school, hands down.) "We have the best scientists on Earth." (I won't argue.) "But we have no money, very little resources." (Also true, and still is in the civil space arena, just about.) "It's a bad combination." (Meaning that brilliant people with limited resources are going to try some crazy things to keep up with the competition. I can absolutely attest to this.) K3 On 2020-04-16 11:36, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:53:54 -0700 > From: > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Cc: > Subject: [ExI] pangolin? > > A Kennedy post from a few days ago has been rattling around in my > brain like a golf ball in a 55 gallon drum. > > There was a piece of DNA from a pangolin and bat DNA in Covid-19? Is > there a resource somewhere written in language a space guy can > understand? That is astonishing, and even suggests something done in > a lab. > > Or what if? mosquito bites pangolin, bat devours mosquito, somehow the > virus mutates inside bat, bat perishes, cage cleaner takes dead bats > to wet market, humans devouring bat soup catch virys, Chinese cover it > up, WHO covers for Chinese, virus spreads to every country on the > globe, American press leverages the tragedy to political advantage, > hospitals overcount for financial reasons, economies across the globe > suffer a crushing blow, the consequences of which will be felt for a > generation. > > Mr. Kennedy, how can pangolin DNA and bad DNA get in that virus > together? Is that what you posted earlier? Or did I misunderstand > (entirely possible I goofed that completely) or misinterpret? From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 20:25:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 16:25:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:38 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> This is not the Spanish flu. * > That's true it's not the Spanish flu, it's not even a variation of the Spanish flu, it's not the flu at all, it's something completely new under the sun; so optimistic predictions about this unknown quantity and the point at which the death rate will stop growing don't fill me with a lot of confidence. I hope the optimists are right, but I don't want to bet my like on it. > * > The CFR for COVID-19 is MUCH lower. * > That's just a guess because nobody knows what the true fatality rate of the 1918 flu was or what this 2020 virus is either because nobody knows how many people had mild cases that were never reported; in 1918 you had to be pretty damn sick before you were even diagnosed with having the disease which would drive the CFR up. And even if the CFR for COVID-19 is MUCH lower that doesn't necessarily mean the number of dead bodies would be much lower too, it wouldn't be if COVID-19 is MUCH more infectious than the flu and we know so little about it that remains a possibility. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 20:30:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:30:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: References: <022001d611d1$6df63f60$49e2be20$@rainier66.com> <025501d611dd$cb80aa60$6281ff20$@rainier66.com> <02d401d611f0$fbdaebe0$f390c3a0$@rainier66.com> <005b01d61216$f3fcf4b0$dbf6de10$@rainier66.com> <006101d61259$bfe95ea0$3fbc1be0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d61262$142ff2f0$3c8fd8d0$@rainier66.com> <00d601d61278$e7f2c1b0$b7d84510$@rainier66.com> <005101d61294$24c2bc10$6e483430$@rainier66.com> <00c401d612ab$705b0850$511118f0$@rainier66.com> <00ec01d6132f$e8 f96f20$baec4d60$@rainier66.com> <012301d61405$8fdc2690$af9473b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004301d6142d$dfcfcdf0$9f6f69d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ccp struggles spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? The only real militias are the National Guard and the Navy militia? > On the contrary. Read the legal definition of militia, 10US code 246, b.2. Spike, I'd rather have my teeth pulled. Just because some brainless political bozo from Bumblefuck Arkansas ? John K Clark {?bitter arrogant political screed deleted?} Run John run! Start a party based on your views, get a polished politician to promote it if you feel you are not able, or promote it yourself, run for high office. There may be others who agree with you that law as written is irrelevant for it was written by someone beneath your dignity, scarcely worthy of even your contempt. So run on that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 20:43:39 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 16:43:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020, 16:39 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:38 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> This is not the Spanish flu. * >> > > That's true it's not the Spanish flu, it's not even a variation of the > Spanish flu, it's not the flu at all, it's something completely new under > the sun; so optimistic predictions about this unknown quantity and the > point at which the death rate will stop growing don't fill me with a lot of > confidence. I hope the optimists are right, but I don't want to bet my like > on it. > > >> * > The CFR for COVID-19 is MUCH lower. * >> > > That's just a guess because nobody knows what the true fatality rate of > the 1918 flu was or what this 2020 virus is either because nobody knows how > many people had mild cases that were never reported; in 1918 you had to be > pretty damn sick before you were even diagnosed with having the disease > which would drive the CFR up. And even if the CFR for COVID-19 is MUCH > lower that doesn't necessarily mean the number of dead bodies would be much > lower too, it wouldn't be if COVID-19 is MUCH more infectious than the flu > and we know so little about it that remains a possibility. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat I feel like you're talking from a month ago. Seems like we have a pretty good handle on everything now, including models. It's not gonna be so bad. Why are you living in hate and fear? That will kill you just like a virus. Chill out dude -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 20:53:13 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:53:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: <8FE1F2E7-D036-40BF-B80A-8EC273AB41B7@gmail.com> References: <8FE1F2E7-D036-40BF-B80A-8EC273AB41B7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 1:26 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > 1. Is imprisonment moral per se? > As opposed to...? There are cases where it apparently is, such as where the only alternative being considered is no action, which results in a murderer killing other people, a rapist raping more people, and so on. > 2. Does imprisonment actually achieve positive results? > As opposed to...? See above. > A subsidiary question to my second one is: Does prison achieve better > positive results against other means of dealing with crime? > What are the other means? > (A good reason to consider this is the overall high cost of prison in > purely monetary terms. For instance, imprisoning the serial burglar might > be far far more costly in monetary terms than the monetary loss from their > burglaries. There might other factors to consider here, as I know as a > person who?s been burglarized before.) > It seems highly unlikely that it imprisonment would usually cost more. https://www.google.com/search?q=cost+of+imprisoning+someone+for+a+year shows as the top result $31K per year. Just one burglary can easily result in more than $31,000 of cost and damages, and a burglar can burgle more than one time per year - and that's just burglarly. If we want to phrase things in monetary costs, then what's the economic damage of an average rape or an average murder? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 20:57:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 16:57:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Computers Message-ID: In today's issue of the journal Nature there is a article about a Silicon based Quantum Computer that operates at temperatures as high as 1.25 degrees Kelvin with an error rate of only 0.7%. That may seem pretty cold but previous Silicon based Quantum Computers, the type corporate investors like best, needed 0.01 degrees Kelvin. Compared with that 1.25 is blistering hot. Universal quantum logic in hot silicon qubits John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 16 21:20:53 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 14:20:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006c01d61434$e9c58820$bd509860$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Quantum Computers In today's issue of the journal Nature there is a article about a Silicon based Quantum Computer that operates at temperatures as high as 1.25 degrees Kelvin with an error rate of only 0.7%. That may seem pretty cold but previous Silicon based Quantum Computers, the type corporate investors like best, needed 0.01 degrees Kelvin. Compared with that 1.25 is blistering hot. Universal quantum logic in hot silicon qubits John K Clark It?s a coupla orders of magnitude cheaper to maintain something at 1.25K compared to .01K as well. I don?t have the exact numbers on that, but commercially it is a game changer if it is proven. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 21:44:38 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:44:38 +1000 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:06, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >?I'd rather have the economy reopen in June, have at risk groups continue > to shelter in place, delay reopening extremely large gatherings like > concert venues and stadiums, and get on with things before we end up in a > global depression that may result in A LOT more deaths once people and > nation states start scrambling for diminishing resources? Dylan > > > > > > Hi Dylan, ja, I have been pondering this for some time. > > > > I don?t know from viruses, but I have heard they can be preserved in a dry > form somehow, like a powder in a vial. Virus hipsters is this correct? > > > > If so, a terrorist with a vial of the stuff could be released over a > packed stadium or rock concert, infecting huge numbers of proles > simultaneously, sort of a more modern version of anthrax. > > > > But this could be worse than anthrax because of its ability to spread. > What I don?t know is if Covid-19 can be preserved in a dry form. I damn > sure hope it cannot. > > > > I live close enough to a football stadium that I can sometimes hear the > crowds cheering. Imagine a terrorist set up an automated quadrotor drone, > the cheap toy ones, with some kind of system that would disperse something > visible, such as flour. She programs it to fly over the stadium, release > the flour, the fans panic and trample each other to get away from it. That > is an example of a terrorist attack which could be done with little > expense, risk to the bad guy, technical expertise or collaboration. It > would cause sports fans to trample each other even if this virus cannot be > preserved in dry form, for those being trampled do not know that, nor do > I. I will offer that I will refuse to go to stadium events in the > foreseeable. (Full disclosure: I was present at the Led Zeppelin ?concert? > in Tampa Florida 3 June 1977 (as the designated driver (oh mercy (details > available on request.))) > > > > Every country in the world now has access to Covid-19. > > > > This could singlehandedly kill stadium events of all kinds. > Why not give everyone access to the virus under the right to bear arms? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 22:01:47 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:01:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You and John with the straw men around the 2nd amendment. There are already reasonable limitations on which arms are allowed for Spike's militia. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:46 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:06, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> *?* >> >> >> >> >?I'd rather have the economy reopen in June, have at risk groups >> continue to shelter in place, delay reopening extremely large gatherings >> like concert venues and stadiums, and get on with things before we end up >> in a global depression that may result in A LOT more deaths once people and >> nation states start scrambling for diminishing resources? Dylan >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Dylan, ja, I have been pondering this for some time. >> >> >> >> I don?t know from viruses, but I have heard they can be preserved in a >> dry form somehow, like a powder in a vial. Virus hipsters is this correct? >> >> >> >> If so, a terrorist with a vial of the stuff could be released over a >> packed stadium or rock concert, infecting huge numbers of proles >> simultaneously, sort of a more modern version of anthrax. >> >> >> >> But this could be worse than anthrax because of its ability to spread. >> What I don?t know is if Covid-19 can be preserved in a dry form. I damn >> sure hope it cannot. >> >> >> >> I live close enough to a football stadium that I can sometimes hear the >> crowds cheering. Imagine a terrorist set up an automated quadrotor drone, >> the cheap toy ones, with some kind of system that would disperse something >> visible, such as flour. She programs it to fly over the stadium, release >> the flour, the fans panic and trample each other to get away from it. That >> is an example of a terrorist attack which could be done with little >> expense, risk to the bad guy, technical expertise or collaboration. It >> would cause sports fans to trample each other even if this virus cannot be >> preserved in dry form, for those being trampled do not know that, nor do >> I. I will offer that I will refuse to go to stadium events in the >> foreseeable. (Full disclosure: I was present at the Led Zeppelin ?concert? >> in Tampa Florida 3 June 1977 (as the designated driver (oh mercy (details >> available on request.))) >> >> >> >> Every country in the world now has access to Covid-19. >> >> >> >> This could singlehandedly kill stadium events of all kinds. >> > Why not give everyone access to the virus under the right to bear arms? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 22:23:27 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 15:23:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Misattribution was no subject Message-ID: wrote: > If I am conflated with another, I don't mind a bit if the person with whom I am conflated is either you or Robert Kennedy. Or Rafal, or Adrian, or a number of our other gentlemanly hipsters. > Someone, I thought it was Robert, wrote a comment which worries me. It was about creating a virus in the lab. That person (Robert or you, I think it was Robert) commented that this technology was beyond the current state of the art but is conceivable in 5 to 10 years. That was me. ? This is scarcely comforting, for my notion is that any technology which is 5 to 10 years away might happen unexpectedly. Technology does stuff like that. My formative years were misspent in proximity to the space program, where that whole stunt of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely was a technology that feels like it was ripped from the 1990s and plunked down in the 1960s, an achievement which still feels 30 years ahead of its time. > So it is really out of the question that this happened 5 to 10 years ahead of schedule? It's really out of the question. I don't work in this field, but I have followed it closely since the late 50s. I still read _Science_ where the cutting edge progress is reported. > That some prole figured out how to somehow splice bat DNA and pangolin DNA into a virus, You seriously misunderstand the story. First, splicing genetic material is something the scientists in the field figured out decades ago. Second, pangolin DNA was *not* involved. It's also an RNA virus, not DNA. A pangolin _coronavirus_ sequence was a very close match to COVID-19, much closer than bat viruses. Coronaviruses circulate in bats, but they infect many other mammals, including four that cause colds in humans plus the original SARS and MERS. COVID-19 is the 7th one to infect people. The original SARS seems to have been a bat virus that infected civet cats. They passed it on to humans. For MERS the intermediate host is camels. > and the lab safety protocol was inadequate and she somehow caught it and gave it to others? This is more likely than someone designing COVID-19, but still extremely unlikely. > Or that it evolved somehow in a bat and the bat was fed to a soup-devourer, who then gave it to others? COVID-19 did not come directly from a bat. Plus cooking would eliminate the virus. > Both of those horrifying scenarios feel plausible to me, and considering that both the virus research lab and the bat soup purveyor were within walking distance of each other suggests to me one of those two scenarios has the ring of truth. Fake news. There is no reason to think someone was weaponizing a pangolin coronavirus. Far, far more likely this was a random natural spillover event. I know humans crave a story to account for random events, but your speculations are not consistent with the science and can be ruled out on those grounds. Designing COVID-19 from the ground up or even starting with SARS is what I was talking about as being beyond the state of the art. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 22:58:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 17:58:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the case of murder, in most cases there is nothing rational to be done. Unless we are talking about gang murders, most murders are within family. OK, so put them in jail. Let them out and see what happens. Extremely low recividism rate for that type of murder. You accomplish nothing by a prison term. They knew it was wrong. They will never do it again. Why pay $30K a year to keep them in prison when nothing good comes out of it? Yeah, they get away with it, and that might encourage others to do the same, expecting no punishment. We have here is MS a lot of killings in prison whether from gangs or who knows. What to do with them? For rapists: nonremovable patches of female hormones, taking the sex drive down to zero - chemical castration. For burglars: State jobs while they learn a trade. On parole, with jail if they break it. Some money to go to those burgled. Ankle bracelets for GPS For white collar crime,like losing trillions of dollars : the stocks, so people can come by and spit on them. Certainly no comfy prison. PUt them in with the black gangs and see how the word spreads about white collar crime. This is certainly the class of crime that needs the most attention. bill w On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 1:27 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:57 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Agreed. And let?s consider abolishing prisons too: >> >> https://c4ss.org/content/30340 >> > > That link kept teasing but didn't actually answer the question, "And > replace them with what?" So, if you're promoting that point of view, I ask > that question of you. > > Let us say there is an individual who routinely burgles houses for a > living. What is to be done to make said individual stop doing this? The > court and penal system is presented as a preferred alternative to > aggrieved people lynching and executing a suspected or alleged burglar. > > How shall we deter murder - especially deliberate assassination by private > individuals accountable to no one or almost no one? > > What is to be done about rapists? > > And that's just some of the basic types of crime. Drugs might be > decriminalized, hate crimes might result in counseling (or lead to an > assessment of mental disorders), but these measures by themselves are a far > cry from abolishing all prisons. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu Apr 16 23:34:43 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 19:34:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Design of viruses Message-ID: Haloo all, I must disagree with the assertion that gene engineering is "nowhere near" the level of designing viruses. Alas, that is not true, the technology is already there. For example, Dr. Shi Zhengli's lab has published many papers on multiple aspects of viral design, including for coronavirus specifically - facilitating zoonotic transfer, reusing viral capsid "shells" to create active virus, and design of SARS entry proteins. There are many papers from Zhengli's lab specifically, as well as other labs, on the design of an entry protein (I assume you mean the spike protein in the case of covid19), including identification of mutational hotspots, and which amino acids to mutate the hotspots to. Zhengli's academic papers and many others on covid19 can be perused in this pretty darn amazing repository: https://ipfs.io/ipfs/bafykbzaced4xstofs4tc5q4irede6uzaz3qzcdvcb2eedxgfakzwdyjnxgohq/pdfs/ But don't only look there, there are many papers on viral engineeering. The technology is here. --Regina Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 18:28:31 -0700 From: Keith Henson To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] virus scenario Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" robot at ultimax.com wrote: >> Spike's scenario doesn't explain the crossover event. >Agree. But I have followed gene engineering for decades. I can state >from such personal knowledge that making this virus in a lab is >beyond the state of the art. Not really far beyond the state of the art > but it is at least 5 years out and more likely ten years. The >showstopper would be designing the entry protein. >> SARS-CoV-2 is not 100% bat content. Mostly it is -- 80%?? The >>balance, 20%??, came from some other mammal. Pangolin (an >>Asian anteater, looks a lot like an armadillo) is the thinking, but, >> whatever. >As it is, too many people being sick at the same time is starting to > have effects on the food supply. Or too many people not working at the same time.... back to lurking, Regina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 23:48:03 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 16:48:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Misattribution was no subject In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "The genomic features described here may explain in part the infectiousness and transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 in humans. Although the evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 is not a purposefully manipulated virus, it is currently impossible to prove or disprove the other theories of its origin described here. However, since we observed all notable SARS-CoV-2 features, including the optimized RBD and polybasic cleavage site, in related coronaviruses in nature, we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible." https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 The authors are from Tulane (New Orleans), U of Sydney (Australia), Columbia University (New York), Edinburgh University (Scotland), and Scripps (La Jolla, California). So it's definitely a Chinese government coverup. (Sarcasm/humor) Keith From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 00:06:24 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 20:06:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <002001d61418$8dccace0$a96606a0$@rainier66.com> References: <002001d61418$8dccace0$a96606a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 2:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: So it is really out of the question that this happened 5 to 10 years ahead > of schedule? ### As I wrote in response to the post (maybe misattributing the quote), making a new SARS virus is trivially easy, if you have a library of viral samples. You PCR amplify, ligate, insert into proper feeder cells and wait a little bit. Can be done in about a day of work for simple viruses. There is no doubt that the Wuhan Institute of Virology generated lots of new viruses, they published on it. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 00:15:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 17:15:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> >?Why not give everyone access to the virus under the right to bear arms? -- Stathis Papaioannou Give? Everyone already HAS access to the virus, way more than we want. What are you suggesting we give anyone? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 00:15:27 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 20:15:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Misattribution was no subject In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:26 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Designing COVID-19 from the ground up or even starting with SARS is > what I was talking about as being beyond the state of the art. > > ### Here I agree - making a new bad virus completely from scratch, without copying large chunks of code from existing viruses, is still beyond the state of the art. But, the Wuhan virus is not very novel, it's definitely doable with the right viral sample library in your freezer. I am sure the Wuhan freezers are full of very... interesting viral samples. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 00:21:20 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 20:21:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: <8FE1F2E7-D036-40BF-B80A-8EC273AB41B7@gmail.com> References: <8FE1F2E7-D036-40BF-B80A-8EC273AB41B7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > A subsidiary question to my second one is: Does prison achieve better > positive results against other means of dealing with crime? (A good reason > to consider this is the overall high cost of prison in purely monetary > terms. For instance, imprisoning the serial burglar might be far far more > costly in monetary terms than the monetary loss from their burglaries. > ### I actually agree with you that keeping serial burglars in prison is a poor solution to the problem. My inclination would be to just kill them. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 00:26:00 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:26:00 +1000 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 10:16, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >?Why not give everyone access to the virus under the right to bear arms? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Give? Everyone already HAS access to the virus, way more than we want. > What are you suggesting we give anyone? > The legal right to use whatever weapons you might feel you need to protect yourself. A rifle will not deter the Government from arresting you if you disagree with them, but weapons of mass destruction might. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 00:52:45 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 20:52:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:11 AM Mike Dougherty wrote: > > So "fake news"? > > If i read that a bar in houston's chinatown is giving away free beer upon > showing a receipt from any of the local chinatown businesses because people > are avoiding that part of the city, out of ignorance and fear... is it so > difficult to imagine misdirected frustration could turn violent? > ### Ignorance? The Chinese virus was brought to the US by travelers, many of them travelers from China. In the absence of testing it's a reasonable presumption that your risk of getting infected by a Chinese virus is higher in Chinatown, at least initially. Does avoiding Chinatown make you into an "ignorant asshole"? So did this "misdirected frustration" actually turn violent? Is there a spike in anti-Asian hate crimes? How many Asians have been victimized recently? Who were the perpetrators? Anything similar to the Rodney King riots? Anti-American, leftist mass media (I am repeating myself here) promote the narrative of Americans being just bad, hateful people. When the facts on the ground do not fit the story, when the supply of real hate crimes does not meet the demand, there are many Jussie Smollets willing to create fake ones. That's why I am highly suspicious of those ritual condemnation stories about the ugly mainstream Americans, ignorant assholes, stupid, filthy and rural. -------------------------- > > I've seen fb posts "fuck china" from people who i know haven't been more > than 50 miles from their rural American home their whole life. > > ### Well, the CCP fucked us and the rest of the world royally. It's time for some disengagement, for mounting a defense against the economic warfare Chicoms employed against the US. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 01:07:57 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 21:07:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 particularly on disengaging from this supply chain, and total condemnation of the CCP and WHO. Yes, I'm perfectly happy the US has defunded them. Their current president is an incompetent, corrupt actor with blood on his hands. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020, 8:54 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:11 AM Mike Dougherty wrote: > >> >> So "fake news"? >> >> If i read that a bar in houston's chinatown is giving away free beer upon >> showing a receipt from any of the local chinatown businesses because people >> are avoiding that part of the city, out of ignorance and fear... is it so >> difficult to imagine misdirected frustration could turn violent? >> > > ### Ignorance? The Chinese virus was brought to the US by travelers, many > of them travelers from China. In the absence of testing it's a reasonable > presumption that your risk of getting infected by a Chinese virus is higher > in Chinatown, at least initially. Does avoiding Chinatown make you into an > "ignorant asshole"? > > So did this "misdirected frustration" actually turn violent? Is there a > spike in anti-Asian hate crimes? How many Asians have been victimized > recently? Who were the perpetrators? Anything similar to the Rodney King > riots? > > Anti-American, leftist mass media (I am repeating myself here) promote the > narrative of Americans being just bad, hateful people. When the facts on > the ground do not fit the story, when the supply of real hate crimes does > not meet the demand, there are many Jussie Smollets willing to create fake > ones. That's why I am highly suspicious of those ritual condemnation > stories about the ugly mainstream Americans, ignorant assholes, stupid, > filthy and rural. > -------------------------- > >> >> I've seen fb posts "fuck china" from people who i know haven't been more >> than 50 miles from their rural American home their whole life. >> >> > ### Well, the CCP fucked us and the rest of the world royally. It's time > for some disengagement, for mounting a defense against the economic warfare > Chicoms employed against the US. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 01:14:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:14:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 5:26 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Stathis Papaioannou Subject: Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 10:16, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >?Why not give everyone access to the virus under the right to bear arms? -- Stathis Papaioannou Give? Everyone already HAS access to the virus, way more than we want. What are you suggesting we give anyone? >?The legal right to use whatever weapons you might feel you need to protect yourself. A rifle will not deter the Government from arresting you if you disagree with them, but weapons of mass destruction might. -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, this is a weird tangent about police. The militia isn?t about the police or fighting the army or any of that. That isn?t what the second amendment is about. The police, the militia and the army are all allies. We are all on the same side: protecting the security of the free state. We are not rednecks or stupid. We aren?t from any particular state. We are all beneath the contempt of some, but no worries, we are here to protect them as well. The army and law enforcement are professionals. The militia is citizen volunteers. In the scenario where the militia is necessary to the security of a free state, there is no army or police, for the government cannot pay them. If the government cannot pay the police, they go into other professions. I notice a common notion among those who do not believe that a militia is necessary to the security of the free state: they cannot fathom a situation where the government cannot pay the soldiers and police. They cannot understand how a government would not be able to pay. That isn?t the least bit difficult for me to imagine, and hasn?t been for decades. Now it must be far easier to envision. What if? we try to re-open the economy, but every time we do, there is a massive new outbreak, resulting in a new lockdown? And what if that continues? For months? What if longer than that? Then businesses fail in unison. Tax revenues dwindle to nearly nothing. Is that difficult to imagine? In that scenario, the militia would defend against those who would use weapons of mass destruction such as a virus. Please, what part of that horrifying scenario is hard to envision? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 01:17:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:17:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004101d61456$01a4d150$04ee73f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy- > Subject: Re: [ExI] BIZARRE >?+1 particularly on disengaging from this supply chain, and total condemnation of the CCP and WHO. Yes, I'm perfectly happy the US has defunded them. Their current president is an incompetent, corrupt actor with blood on his hands? Dylan Incompetent doesn?t go far enough. This appears to be active malice. The coverup is a crime against humanity. It is the functional equivalent of declaring war on the entire planet. He comes the closest, but even our noble Rafal understates the appalling reality. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 01:25:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 21:25:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 8:36 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The legal right to use whatever weapons you might feel you need to protect > yourself. A rifle will not deter the Government from arresting you if you > disagree with them, but weapons of mass destruction might. > ### Indeed, universal ownership of e.g. high-yield thermonuclear weapons would very effectively deter the sheriff from arresting you, as long as you are serious about that "Live free or die" thing. However, your attempt at a reductio ad absurdum doesn't provide a strong argument against gun ownership. A successful society is a marvel of precise control, of balance between various parts and forces. Finding that balance is not easy and the precise control solutions that work in one situation will not necessarily work in others. Your reductio hints that turning one parameter up to eleven is likely to destroy balance - but it does not prove that turning that parameter down to zero is the best solution. Common ownership of WMDs would be a very unstable, unbalanced situation, likely to result in a lot more dying than freedom, where the risk of death from private violence greatly outweighs any reductions in state oppression. On the other extreme, absolute disarmament of the populace in many situations leads to unopposed slaughter. Somewhere in between the extremes we have common gun ownership in some Western societies which makes state oppression more difficult and it doesn't much increase death count from private violence. This is a balanced, workable and proven control solution for a difficult societal problem. I own a Glock 27. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 01:34:25 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 21:34:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Mine is a FN509 midsize. On Thu, Apr 16, 2020, 9:32 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I own a Glock 27. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 01:37:54 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:37:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thursday, April 16, 2020, 02:06:31 PM PDT, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 1:26 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> 1. Is imprisonment moral per se? > > As opposed to...? There are cases where it apparently is, such as where > the only alternative being considered is no action, which results in a > murderer killing other people, a rapist raping more people, and so on. Sometimes no action might be better than imprisonment. Imagine someone who isn't infected and both they and you (and everyone else knows this) spits on you. Imagine in this supposed incident, there's a bizarre legal system where either the spitter gets a year in prison or no action at all is taken. Would you say a year in prison in this case is better than no action? Now, in the real world, there's almost always many more actions to be taken than merely "no action" (by which I take it you mean the person suffers no penalties whatsoever, including, in the case of spitting, you don't change your behavior regarding them, such as you see them getting ready to do the same thing and you just let it happen). Let me return to the alternatives. >> 2. Does imprisonment actually achieve positive results? > > As opposed to...? See above. As opposed to not imprisoning someone. See below. >> A subsidiary question to my second one is: Does prison achieve >> better positive results against other means of dealing with crime? > > What are the other means? Fines, restitution, loss of property, loss of social status, and monitoring (such as probation). >> (A good reason to consider this is the overall high cost of prison in purely >> monetary terms. For instance, imprisoning the serial burglar might be far >> far more costly in monetary terms than the monetary loss from their >> burglaries. There might other factors to consider here, as I know as a >> person who?s been burglarized before.) > > It seems highly unlikely that it imprisonment would usually cost more. > https://www.google.com/search?q=cost+of+imprisoning+someone+for+a+year > shows as the top result $31K per year. Actually, it states "incarceration costs an average of more than $31,000 per inmate, per year, nationwide." It doesn't say how much more than that, so let's accept that as the low end of the average... > Just one burglary can easily result in more than $31,000 of cost and damages, > and a burglar can burgle more than one time per year - and that's just burglarly. Now you've moved from average to what you believe a good burglary might net. In fact, the average burglary nets about $2,000.* So the average burglar would have to commit over 15 average acts of burglary over a year to balance out the average prison cost. To be fair here, the article citing this figure mentions there are other costs. > If we want to phrase things in monetary costs, then what's the economic > damage of an average rape or an average murder? Crimes like these and including other acts of physical violence (what's the "cost" of having one's face kicked in?) are a tougher sell for prison abolition, of course. Regards, Dan From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 01:42:02 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:42:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A6654F7-8CBF-40AC-92B6-CF622B2D8A2D@gmail.com> On Apr 16, 2020, at 5:30 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> A subsidiary question to my second one is: Does prison achieve better positive results against other means of dealing with crime? (A good reason to consider this is the overall high cost of prison in purely monetary terms. For instance, imprisoning the serial burglar might be far far more costly in monetary terms than the monetary loss from their burglaries. > > ### I actually agree with you that keeping serial burglars in prison is a poor solution to the problem. My inclination would be to just kill them. Which would result in, no doubt, many cases of serial burglars becoming more violent. In other words, likely a case of the cure being worse than the disease. (This is over and above the moral problem of whether someone should be killed for multiple acts of theft.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 02:09:42 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 22:09:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: <7A6654F7-8CBF-40AC-92B6-CF622B2D8A2D@gmail.com> References: <7A6654F7-8CBF-40AC-92B6-CF622B2D8A2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Apr 16, 2020, at 5:30 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > ### I actually agree with you that keeping serial burglars in prison is a > poor solution to the problem. My inclination would be to just kill them. > > > Which would result in, no doubt, many cases of serial burglars becoming > more violent. In other words, likely a case of the cure being worse than > the disease. > ### A increased threat of being killed (by homeowners indemnified for shooting invaders, or by automated security devices, or by constables identifying you from security or traffic camera footage or by the hangman after a quick trial) would be an inducement to commit more violence, rather than back down? How would that inducement to violence work, precisely? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 02:49:57 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 19:49:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: <7A6654F7-8CBF-40AC-92B6-CF622B2D8A2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 7:11 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Apr 16, 2020, at 5:30 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >> >> ### I actually agree with you that keeping serial burglars in prison is a >> poor solution to the problem. My inclination would be to just kill them. >> >> >> Which would result in, no doubt, many cases of serial burglars becoming >> more violent. In other words, likely a case of the cure being worse than >> the disease. >> > > ### A increased threat of being killed (by homeowners indemnified for > shooting invaders, or by automated security devices, or by constables > identifying you from security or traffic camera footage or by the hangman > after a quick trial) would be an inducement to commit more violence, rather > than back down? > > How would that inducement to violence work, precisely? > Destroy the cameras and kill all witnesses. It's one thing if they're just going to jail, but if they will probably die if they leave anyone or anything that would recognize them, the cost of such destruction becomes worth it in more cases. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 04:38:58 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 21:38:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined Message-ID: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: snip > A rifle will not deter the Government from arresting you if you disagree with them, but weapons of mass destruction might. Vernor Vinge, Extropian author extraordinary, explored citizens with nuclear weapons in his Peace War stories. The stories included time stopping "bobbles" that were proof against nuclear blasts. When the Sheriff showed up, you tossed out a nuke and bobbled up for some years to let the radiation decay. Keith From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 04:43:13 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:43:13 +1000 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 11:17, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2020 5:26 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Stathis Papaioannou > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq > wars combined > > > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 10:16, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > >?Why not give everyone access to the virus under the right to bear arms? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Give? Everyone already HAS access to the virus, way more than we want. > What are you suggesting we give anyone? > > > > >?The legal right to use whatever weapons you might feel you need to > protect yourself. A rifle will not deter the Government from arresting you > if you disagree with them, but weapons of mass destruction might. > > > > > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Stathis, this is a weird tangent about police. The militia isn?t about > the police or fighting the army or any of that. That isn?t what the second > amendment is about. The police, the militia and the army are all allies. > We are all on the same side: protecting the security of the free state. We > are not rednecks or stupid. We aren?t from any particular state. We are > all beneath the contempt of some, but no worries, we are here to protect > them as well. > > > > The army and law enforcement are professionals. The militia is citizen > volunteers. In the scenario where the militia is necessary to the security > of a free state, there is no army or police, for the government cannot pay > them. If the government cannot pay the police, they go into other > professions. > > > > I notice a common notion among those who do not believe that a militia is > necessary to the security of the free state: they cannot fathom a situation > where the government cannot pay the soldiers and police. They cannot > understand how a government would not be able to pay. That isn?t the least > bit difficult for me to imagine, and hasn?t been for decades. > > > > Now it must be far easier to envision. What if? we try to re-open the > economy, but every time we do, there is a massive new outbreak, resulting > in a new lockdown? And what if that continues? For months? What if > longer than that? Then businesses fail in unison. Tax revenues dwindle to > nearly nothing. Is that difficult to imagine? > > > > In that scenario, the militia would defend against those who would use > weapons of mass destruction such as a virus. > > > > Please, what part of that horrifying scenario is hard to envision? > Well, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the citizens should have arms so that they can resist the Government if they tried to abuse their power. The only real power the Government has is through employees that can use force, such as the police and the armed forces; surely you don?t believe that Donald Trump himself will force his way into your home in order to take the gold you have buried in the garden. Now you are talking about something quite different: what if the Government cannot pay its employees? Then I suppose they will ask for volunteers, or reintroduce the draft, which is essentially a form of slavery. That would suck, but it would probably wouldn?t suck any less if there were millions of people running around with guns. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Fri Apr 17 07:14:05 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:44:05 +0530 Subject: [ExI] Why is there more matter than antimatter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have evidence that the laws of nature aren't the same for matter and antimatter (of course, we don't know the reason for so). The asymmetry problem, I think, is similar to the C-reversed, P-reversed, and T-reversed universe combinations, not all of them can exist. Similarly, antimatter particles, in principle, should be perfect mirror images of matter. However, the kaons effect is rare today, can we say the same for the early universe? The asymmetry you mention in the 1964 experiment, also happens in D-mesons. Perhaps, the source of quark-asymmetry isn't the reason, and there is some other unknown (so far) source contributing to the matter-antimatter asymmetry. Antiproton decelerator's work could be relevant in the coming years to this. &Kunvar On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 2:58 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Why is there more matter than antimatter when the properties of the 2 > things seem symmetrical? Back in 1964 a particle called the "kaon" was > discover that showed the symmetry between the two was not quite perfect and > slightly favored matter over antimatter, but kaons are rare and that effect > was much too slight to explain why the Big Bang didn't annihilate nearly > all the matter in the universe. But now in today's issue of the journal > Nature indications of a far larger discrepancy was found between neutrinos > and antineutrinos, and matter is winning. More muon neutrinos are > oscillating into electron neutrinos than muon antineutrinos are oscillating > into electron antineutrinos. The evadens is only 3 sigma so there is still > one chance in a thousand it's just a statistical fluke and 5 sigma (one in > a million) is required to officially claim a discovery but it's still a > pretty big deal. > > Constraint on the matter?antimatter symmetry-violating phase in neutrino > oscillations > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 07:52:51 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:52:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Tooth and Claw (was ccp struggles) In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> <2052992412.526205.1586934644286@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1755590871.1364629.1587109971743@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, April 15, 2020, 12:54:26 AM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: >> In theory, because it is the duty of the criminal justice system to do so. In Mexico, however, the well-armed drug cartels and the police seldom clash and instead they usually victimize the unarmed citizens. Low hanging fruit and all. > The Mexican drug cartels are organised and have huge amounts of money to spend on weapons. This is what it would take to oppose the Government; but as in Mexico, there would then be the problem of what such a militia would do with the power. That is a common misconception. The 2nd Amendment is not about opposing the government, it is about BEING the government. Perhaps there is something you don't quite get about Americans. It is something that many Americans don't get about themselves because they try to interpret the 2nd Amendment in a vacuum. One has to take into account not just the Constitution but also the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." The founding principle of America is that the people ARE the government. Whereas other countries have rulers, we Americans have representatives.?In other words, we consent to be governed by our equals (i.e. morally equivalent peers) for the sake of schools and highways and the common good. But an armed person and an unarmed person are not equal, they cannot be, for one can coerce the other. Another way to think about it is this. Max Weber defined a state as an entity that maintained a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within its borders. In most countries when there arises a group of people like an armed gang, cartel, militia, or terrorist organization, then that monopoly on violence is broken and the existence of the state is questioned. Here in the United States of America however, since we have a "government of the people, by the people, for the people", we prevent this from happening by allowing almost everyone to have access to weapons and be part of the militia. An all-inclusive monopoly on the legitimate use of force can never be broken. The use of force for self-defense is legitimatized by natural law.. At least that was the intent of the Founders as near as I can tell. In America, if you can't govern an armed populace, then you are not fit to govern. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 09:13:18 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 05:13:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: <7A6654F7-8CBF-40AC-92B6-CF622B2D8A2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:50 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 7:11 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Apr 16, 2020, at 5:30 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >>> >>> ### I actually agree with you that keeping serial burglars in prison is >>> a poor solution to the problem. My inclination would be to just kill them. >>> >>> >>> Which would result in, no doubt, many cases of serial burglars becoming >>> more violent. In other words, likely a case of the cure being worse than >>> the disease. >>> >> >> ### A increased threat of being killed (by homeowners indemnified for >> shooting invaders, or by automated security devices, or by constables >> identifying you from security or traffic camera footage or by the hangman >> after a quick trial) would be an inducement to commit more violence, rather >> than back down? >> >> How would that inducement to violence work, precisely? >> > > Destroy the cameras and kill all witnesses. It's one thing if they're > just going to jail, but if they will probably die if they leave anyone or > anything that would recognize them, the cost of such destruction becomes > worth it in more cases. > ### Well, destroying *all* cameras? That's a tall order, mechanically, whenever premises are protected by hidden or cloud-connected cameras. If destroying cameras is easy, they would do it even if not threatened with death. If it's difficult - they won't burglarize, knowing they will die for their crime. Yes, there is a risk that a burglar might be more inclined to kill random homeowners and bystanders if he feels he has nothing much to lose. That's a risk I would be willing to take. I would like to have the option of killing burglars who invade my house, or having them killed by hired enforcers, without fear of prosecution and I would be willing to advertise that option on my house, clearly stating that burglary there will be punished by death. Somebody who does not want to take that risk should be able to opt out. His house will advertise leniency to burglars, thus enticing them not to kill during their visits. Different strokes for different folks. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 09:21:21 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 05:21:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:42 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Vernor Vinge, Extropian author extraordinary, explored citizens with > nuclear weapons in his Peace War stories. ### Was Vinge ever on ExI list? I'm such a fan of Peace War and Marooned in Realtime, and most of his other books! I first read Peace War in German, still have the German paperback and the English original. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 12:34:08 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:34:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea Message-ID: There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as if today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It took the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number of cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots of theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is lifted too soon. And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about 1,770 deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the quarantine right now is a good idea? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 13:02:34 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 23:02:34 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Tooth and Claw (was ccp struggles) In-Reply-To: <1755590871.1364629.1587109971743@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> <2052992412.526205.1586934644286@mail.yahoo.com> <1755590871.1364629.1587109971743@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 17:54, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wednesday, April 15, 2020, 12:54:26 AM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via > extropy-chat wrote: > > >> In theory, because it is the duty of the criminal justice system to do > so. In Mexico, however, the well-armed drug cartels and the police seldom > clash and instead they usually victimize the unarmed citizens. Low hanging > fruit and all. > > > The Mexican drug cartels are organised and have huge amounts of money to > spend on weapons. This is what it would take to oppose the Government; but > as in Mexico, there would then be the problem of what such a militia would > do with the power. > > That is a common misconception. The 2nd Amendment is not about opposing > the government, it is about BEING the government. Perhaps there is > something you don't quite get about Americans. It is something that many > Americans don't get about themselves because they try to interpret the 2nd > Amendment in a vacuum. One has to take into account not just the > Constitution but also the Declaration of Independence: > > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, > that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, > that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to > secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their > just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of > Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People > to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its > foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to > them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." > > The founding principle of America is that the people ARE the government. > Whereas other countries have rulers, we Americans have representatives. In > other words, we consent to be governed by our equals (i.e. morally > equivalent peers) for the sake of schools and highways and the common good. > But an armed person and an unarmed person are not equal, they cannot be, > for one can coerce the other. > > Another way to think about it is this. Max Weber defined a state as an > entity that maintained a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within its > borders. In most countries when there arises a group of people like an > armed gang, cartel, militia, or terrorist organization, then that monopoly > on violence is broken and the existence of the state is questioned. Here in > the United States of America however, since we have a "government of the > people, by the people, for the people", we prevent this from happening by > allowing almost everyone to have access to weapons and be part of the > militia. An all-inclusive monopoly on the legitimate use of force can never > be broken. The use of force for self-defense is legitimatized by natural > law.. At least that was the intent of the Founders as near as I can tell. > > In America, if you can't govern an armed populace, then you are not fit to > govern. I can see that you believe this, but it is not an idea that people elsewhere in the world have, even if they support gun rights. It is like a religious idea, which has the characteristic that it seems crazy to anyone not already in the religion. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 13:07:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:07:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> high-yield thermonuclear weapons would very effectively deter the > sheriff from arresting you, as long as you are serious about that "Live > free or die" thing. However, your attempt at a reductio ad absurdum doesn't > provide a strong argument against gun ownership.* True, but that reductio ad absurdum is a strong argument against the case that the Second Amendment is absolute, and it's a strong argument in favor of differentiating between what is an "arm" and what is a "weapon of mass destruction". So for example it would be constitutional to make individual ownership of anything more advanced than a revolver or a bolt action rifle illegal, as those things would still be more advanced than the original intent of the framers of the Constitution, when they wrote that document they were thinking about single shot flintlock pistols and muzzle loading muskets. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 13:09:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 06:09:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ? Subject: Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat: On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 11:17, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?I notice a common notion among those who do not believe that a militia is necessary to the security of the free state: they cannot fathom a situation where the government cannot pay the soldiers and police. They cannot understand how a government would not be able to pay. That isn?t the least bit difficult for me to imagine, and hasn?t been for decades. ?What if? we try to re-open the economy, but every time we do, there is a massive new outbreak, resulting in a new lockdown? And what if that continues? For months? What if longer than that? Then businesses fail in unison. Tax revenues dwindle to nearly nothing. Is that difficult to imagine? ?spike >?Well, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the citizens should have arms so that they can resist the Government if they tried to abuse their power? Hi Stathis, In the scenario easily envisioned, the government fails and isn?t really in the picture. >?The only real power the Government has is through employees that can use force, such as the police and the armed forces; surely you don?t believe that Donald Trump himself will force his way into your home in order to take the gold you have buried in the garden? No, governments abusing power would come in other forms besides breaking into homes where there isn?t much to seize. It would be in the form of seizing 401Ks, bank accounts and retirement accounts. Gold isn?t worth much in these scenarios. The currency of choice is food and ammo, but the government already has plenty of that. >?Now you are talking about something quite different: what if the Government cannot pay its employees? Then I suppose they will ask for volunteers, or reintroduce the draft, which is essentially a form of slavery? Draft: there would be no draft. The Fed would need to furlough most of the military it already employs. They don?t need to ask for volunteers, they already have them: the militias. The government doesn?t pay the militias, nor does it feed, arm or clothe them. They already thought of that and wrote it into the constitution from the start, over 230 yrs ago. In 1789, the notion that the Federal government could go bankrupt was a very real and present danger. They needed a contingency plan, for their finances back then were nearly as shaky and dubious as the US government?s finances are today. (Well, OK that?s a bit of a stretch, but they were on some pretty shaky ground back in the 1780s.) >?That would suck, but it would probably wouldn?t suck any less if there were millions of people running around with guns. -- Stathis Papaioannou In the USA, there are already millions of people running around with guns; it has always been that way. The best estimates are that there are somewhere around 400 million guns in America. Some of us have more than one of course. Those millions of people running around with guns are why the US government hasn?t already seized more power than the Constitution allows. There are somewhere between 8 billion and 15 billion rounds of ammo sold in the USA per year, and not all of that is fired. Ammo tends to accumulate, because it keeps forever (army surplus WW1 ammo still works perfectly even though it is over 100 yrs old) and is an excellent reserve currency (better than gold.) Reasonable estimates suggest there are perhaps half a trillion rounds of ammo in the US alone. The NRA bumper sticker has the ring of truth: if we were the problem, believe me, you would know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 13:24:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:24:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The militia isn?t about the police or fighting the army or any of that. > That isn?t what the second amendment is about. The police, the militia and > the army are all allies* But I thought the second amendment was about making sure the government never gets too big for their britches, if so then it only becomes useful when the army and the militia are *NOT* on the same side, and even then it's not very useful because we're right back to redneck with shotgun versus M1 Abrams Battle Tank. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 13:28:53 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 06:28:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007d01d614bc$23bf38f0$6b3daad0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?So for example it would be constitutional to make individual ownership of anything more advanced than a revolver or a bolt action rifle illegal? No worries, there are revolvers and bolt action rifles that are more advanced than anything currently going out the door at the gun shop today: the titanium firing pin for instance. Note that the AR-15 design was mature in the 1960s when the military adopted a variant. Newer models of firearms of all types would be considered more advanced since they were introduced later. A common characteristic of those who would infringe on the militia?s choice of firearms is a stunning ignorance of the subject. They don?t go to the local gun shop and listen, they don?t go to the shooting range. Perhaps they fear they will discover the people there are not ignorant stupid rednecks with shotguns. They may discover that which they have long believed and attempted to sell to others is not so. Horrifying! >? as those things would still be more advanced than the original intent of the framers of the Constitution, when they wrote that document they were thinking about single shot flintlock pistols and muzzle loading muskets?John K Clark On the contrary, they were thinking about arming the militia. It is clearly stated right there in Article 2. They don?t specify what arms are to not be infringed. I checked with Walmart, they don?t have a nuclear weapons aisle. They suggested talking to China to buy that kind of thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 13:36:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:36:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Those millions of people running around with guns are why the US government hasn?t already seized more power than the Constitution allows. This is an unsupported belief not a fact. Do you think that is has ever been at the highest levels of government "Hey, let's just take over and junk the Constitution." "Are you crazy? Look at all the guns out there." I think you would have to be very credulous to believe anything anywhere close to that has been said or even thought. If it had, I think it would have showed up in memoirs and such. I think this is as hard to believe as confiscation. Harder. bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *?* > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq > wars combined > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat: > > > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 11:17, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > >>?I notice a common notion among those who do not believe that a militia > is necessary to the security of the free state: they cannot fathom a > situation where the government cannot pay the soldiers and police. They > cannot understand how a government would not be able to pay. That isn?t > the least bit difficult for me to imagine, and hasn?t been for decades. > ?What if? we try to re-open the economy, but every time we do, there is a > massive new outbreak, resulting in a new lockdown? And what if that > continues? For months? What if longer than that? Then businesses fail in > unison. Tax revenues dwindle to nearly nothing. Is that difficult to > imagine? > > ?spike > > > > >?Well, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the citizens should > have arms so that they can resist the Government if they tried to abuse > their power? > > > > Hi Stathis, > > > > In the scenario easily envisioned, the government fails and isn?t really > in the picture. > > > > >?The only real power the Government has is through employees that can use > force, such as the police and the armed forces; surely you don?t believe > that Donald Trump himself will force his way into your home in order to > take the gold you have buried in the garden? > > > > No, governments abusing power would come in other forms besides breaking > into homes where there isn?t much to seize. It would be in the form of > seizing 401Ks, bank accounts and retirement accounts. Gold isn?t worth > much in these scenarios. The currency of choice is food and ammo, but the > government already has plenty of that. > > > > >?Now you are talking about something quite different: what if the > Government cannot pay its employees? Then I suppose they will ask for > volunteers, or reintroduce the draft, which is essentially a form of > slavery? > > > > Draft: there would be no draft. The Fed would need to furlough most of > the military it already employs. > > > > They don?t need to ask for volunteers, they already have them: the > militias. The government doesn?t pay the militias, nor does it feed, arm > or clothe them. They already thought of that and wrote it into the > constitution from the start, over 230 yrs ago. > > > > In 1789, the notion that the Federal government could go bankrupt was a > very real and present danger. They needed a contingency plan, for their > finances back then were nearly as shaky and dubious as the US government?s > finances are today. > > > > (Well, OK that?s a bit of a stretch, but they were on some pretty shaky > ground back in the 1780s.) > > > > >?That would suck, but it would probably wouldn?t suck any less if there > were millions of people running around with guns. -- Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > In the USA, there are already millions of people running around with guns; > it has always been that way. The best estimates are that there are > somewhere around 400 million guns in America. Some of us have more than > one of course. Those millions of people running around with guns are why > the US government hasn?t already seized more power than the Constitution > allows. > > > > There are somewhere between 8 billion and 15 billion rounds of ammo sold > in the USA per year, and not all of that is fired. Ammo tends to > accumulate, because it keeps forever (army surplus WW1 ammo still works > perfectly even though it is over 100 yrs old) and is an excellent reserve > currency (better than gold.) Reasonable estimates suggest there are > perhaps half a trillion rounds of ammo in the US alone. The NRA bumper > sticker has the ring of truth: if we were the problem, believe me, you > would know. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 13:38:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:38:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I own a Glock 27.* I own a Smith & Wesson 38 Special revolver, I didn't buy it I inherited it from my father. It's still in perfect condition because it has never been fired by anyone, but if they said I couldn't have anything better than a flintlock I'd be willing to trade it in. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 13:40:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:40:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as if > today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It took > the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number of > cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots of > theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only > thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is > lifted too soon. > > And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the USA > killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about 1,770 > deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday > COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the > quarantine right now is a good idea? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 14:03:00 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:03:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <007d01d614bc$23bf38f0$6b3daad0$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <007d01d614bc$23bf38f0$6b3daad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Someone wrote: > > > ? as those things would still be more advanced than the original intent > of the framers of the Constitution, when they wrote that document they were > thinking about single shot flintlock pistols and muzzle loading muskets? > That's exactly why Freedom of the Press only applies to publishers using screw presses, ink, and paper, and has no bearing on electronic communications. :-) -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 14:20:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:20:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <007d01d614bc$23bf38f0$6b3daad0$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <007d01d614bc$23bf38f0$6b3daad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> it would be constitutional to make individual ownership of anything more >> advanced than a revolver or a bolt action rifle illegal? > > > > *No worries, there are revolvers and bolt action rifles that are more > advanced than anything currently going out the door at the gun shop today* Fine. Gun Digest magazine lists the 8 best manual bolt action rifles of all time, take your pick: Top 8 Bolt-Action Rifles >*Note that the AR-15 design was mature in the 1960s * The AR-15 is not a manual bolt action rifle, neither is the AK-47. > *I checked with Walmart, they don?t have a nuclear weapons aisle.* And there is only one reason for that, most people are not insane and so they know that if the human race is not to go extinct there must be limits placed on the Second Amendment; reasonable people can disagree on exactly where to draw the line, but once you get to Nerve Gas, Anthrax Bombs, and Thermonuclear Warheads you're clearly in the land of the looney. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 14:24:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:24:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 10:05 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you can't, > can you? You just cannot control it. bill w > William, personally I wish you'd just stop reading my posts instead of sending us complaints about them. But you can't, can you? You just cannot control it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 14:57:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:57:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > The militia isn?t about the police or fighting the army or any of that. That isn?t what the second amendment is about. The police, the militia and the army are all allies >?But I thought the second amendment was about making sure the government never gets too big for their britches? That?s right. That is why it has never happened: the government has never gotten too big for its britches. The second amendment protects the other rights. It serves to remind the government who they are working for and who is paying them: we the people are doing that. The government works for us. I do recommend a trip down to the local gun shop. Speak little, listen much. >?if so then it only becomes useful when the army and the militia are NOT on the same side? Not at all. As long as the military exists, the militia isn?t called upon to maintain the security of the free state. The military does that. The militia is for when the military isn?t there. >? and even then it's not very useful because we're right back to redneck with shotgun versus M1 Abrams Battle Tank. John K Clark John who do you think the army is going to fire upon with a tank? Do explain your scenario. I have explained mine: the militia is a volunteer force that is there if the government cannot pay the military. With the current plummeting government revenue, is it so hard to envision? Still? Does it ever occur to you that the militia is not stupid rednecks with shotguns? That is a cartoon character or Hollywood figure. In reality the militia is made up of people who are smarter than you and I are in many areas. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 15:05:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:05:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> < CAO+xQEZzJh-aRyJ0Lur-JmKvPLJirPR5OyGY=4G=nyMUbOnEZw@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006f01d614c9$a38da780$eaa8f680$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?"Hey, let's just take over and junk the Constitution." "Are you crazy? Look at all the guns out there." It prevents people who would violate the constitution from being elected to start with. >? I think this is as hard to believe as confiscation. Harder. bill w ??hell yes, we?re gonna take your AR-15, your AK7?? Beto O?Rourke. This is the comment that abruptly ended an emergent political career. He was considered one of the front runners when that comment was uttered on 12 September 2019. Now he is a forgotten nightmare. He couldn?t be elected to Neighborhood Watch Captain now with that on his record. Adios amigo. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 15:06:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:06:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only reason for reading your posts, John, is that I might miss an intelligent comment on what you wrote. bill w (please note - not William) On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:29 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 10:05 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you >> can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w >> > > William, personally I wish you'd just stop reading my posts instead of > sending us complaints about them. But you can't, can you? You just cannot > control it. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 15:08:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:08:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <007d01d614bc$23bf38f0$6b3da ad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007801d614ca$0efe6270$2cfb2750$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined Someone wrote: >> ? when they wrote that document they were thinking about single shot flintlock pistols and muzzle loading muskets? >?That's exactly why Freedom of the Press only applies to publishers using screw presses, ink, and paper, and has no bearing on electronic communications. :-) -Dave Ja. The framers of the Constitution never envisioned the internet. It was never their intent to let just anyone say anything they want and blast it out everywhere. Isn?t that right, John? By the way, how many words of free speech do you really need? What words should you be allowed to have? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 15:12:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:12:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <007d01d614bc$23bf38f0$6b3da ad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007f01d614ca$993d9eb0$cbb8dc10$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? if the human race is not to go extinct there must be limits placed on the Second Amendment? John K Clark Run John run! Beto O?Rourke might agree to be your running mate. I understand he isn?t employed at the moment. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 15:20:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:20:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shops opening Message-ID: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> I was out for a walk this morning and noticed two shops had opened: a pastry shop, a Starbucks and a dry cleaner. There were two police cars sitting in the parking lot, watching as customers came in and out (plenty of them.) I didn?t see anyone packing close. This is an interesting development. In California, the state government outranks the Fed, so by extension the city government outranks the state. Clearly they aren?t stopping these donut shops from opening for business, along with at least one dry cleaner. I don?t really know what happens if a local shop declares itself an essential business, but I see three examples which have done so without consequence. Perhaps they could accept the 50 dollar misdemeanor ticket then request a trial, which won?t be until after the quarantine, then just pay it at that time. They are standing orders from the governor to shut down. OK, so what if they defy that and stay open, then the local constables do nothing? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 15:39:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:39:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? Message-ID: <002601d614ce$56056160$02102420$@rainier66.com> Stanford weekly seminars are quite good. I have half a mind to tune in to this discussion today. https://hai.stanford.edu/events/hai-weekly-seminar-vinay-uday-prabhu-four-horsemen-ethical-malice-peer-reviewed-machine?utm_source=Stanford+University &utm_campaign=0f2d627924-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_03_13_10_26_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_aaf04f4a4b-0f2d627924-199837799 This comment about thawing of the AI winter caught my attention. What is that? I didn?t realize we were in an AI winter. AI hipsters, do offer an educational comment please. spike EVENT TODAY! HAI Weekly Seminar with Vinay Uday Prabhu On the Four Horsemen of Ethical Malice in Peer-Reviewed Machine Learning Literature April 17, 2020 11:00AM PDT Add to Calendar Speaker Bio: Vinay Prabhu is currently the Chief Scientist at UnifyID Inc, where he leads efforts towards architecting and deploying the state-of-the-art passive mobile biometrics solution by bringing together machine learning algorithms and smart-sensor data to model the human behind the device. Abstract: The thawing of the AI winter and the subsequent deep learning revolution has been marked by large scale open-source-driven democratization efforts and a paper publishing frenzy. As we navigate through this massive corpus of technical literature, four categories of ethical transgressions come to fore: Dataset curation, Modeling, Problem definitions and sycophantic tech-journalism. In this talk, we will explore specific examples in each of these categories with a strong focus on computer vision. The goal of this talk is to not just demonstrate the widespread usage of these datasets and models, but to also elicit a commitment from the attending scholars to either not use these datasets or models, or to insert an ethical caveat in case of unavoidable usage? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 15:43:03 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:43:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I would point out donut shops ARE essential services for the boys/gals in blue! On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 11:40 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > I was out for a walk this morning and noticed two shops had opened: a > pastry shop, a Starbucks and a dry cleaner. There were two police cars > sitting in the parking lot, watching as customers came in and out (plenty > of them.) I didn?t see anyone packing close. > > > > This is an interesting development. In California, the state government > outranks the Fed, so by extension the city government outranks the state. > Clearly they aren?t stopping these donut shops from opening for business, > along with at least one dry cleaner. > > > > I don?t really know what happens if a local shop declares itself an > essential business, but I see three examples which have done so without > consequence. Perhaps they could accept the 50 dollar misdemeanor ticket > then request a trial, which won?t be until after the quarantine, then just > pay it at that time. They are standing orders from the governor to shut > down. OK, so what if they defy that and stay open, then the local > constables do nothing? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 15:52:08 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:52:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: <002601d614ce$56056160$02102420$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d614ce$56056160$02102420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hi Spike- I believe they're referring to the thaw in the AI winter DUE to deep learning's success in recent years (so the thaw has been going on for quite some while, really at least a decade). That said, I personally think we may be ended up heading back into the winter. As impressive as deep learning has been for SOME applications, it remains brittle and we seem to be hitting walls (i.e. it is becoming apparent that Level 5 driving cars are going to be extremely difficult to release into the real world wild with multiple complications, bad weather, etc. than people originally predicted based on the limits of current algos). I remain skeptical that we'll see a true level 5 vehicle without a breakthrough in strong AI. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 11:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Stanford weekly seminars are quite good. I have half a mind to tune in to > this discussion today. > > > > > https://hai.stanford.edu/events/hai-weekly-seminar-vinay-uday-prabhu-four-horsemen-ethical-malice-peer-reviewed-machine?utm_source=Stanford+University&utm_campaign=0f2d627924-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_03_13_10_26_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_aaf04f4a4b-0f2d627924-199837799 > > > > This comment about thawing of the AI winter caught my attention. What is > that? I didn?t realize we were in an AI winter. > > > > AI hipsters, do offer an educational comment please. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > EVENT TODAY! > > HAI Weekly Seminar with Vinay Uday Prabhu > > On the Four Horsemen of Ethical Malice in Peer-Reviewed Machine Learning > Literature > > > > April 17, 2020 > > 11:00AM PDT > > Add to Calendar > > > > > > Speaker Bio: Vinay Prabhu is currently the Chief Scientist at UnifyID Inc, > where he leads efforts towards architecting and deploying the > state-of-the-art passive mobile biometrics solution by bringing together > machine learning algorithms and smart-sensor data to model the human behind > the device. > > > > Abstract: The thawing of the AI winter and the subsequent deep learning > revolution has been marked by large scale open-source-driven > democratization efforts and a paper publishing frenzy. As we navigate > through this massive corpus of technical literature, four categories of > ethical transgressions come to fore: Dataset curation, Modeling, Problem > definitions and sycophantic tech-journalism. In this talk, we will explore > specific examples in each of these categories with a strong focus on > computer vision. The goal of this talk is to not just demonstrate the > widespread usage of these datasets and models, but to also elicit a > commitment from the attending scholars to either not use these datasets or > models, or to insert an ethical caveat in case of unavoidable usage? > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 15:59:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:59:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <006f01d614c9$a38da780$eaa8f680$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> <006f01d614c9$a38da780$eaa8f680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It prevents people who would violate the constitution from being elected to start with. Spike So what are you worried about? If you are right, then confiscation and planning to take over the country doesn't get to first base once we learn their ideas. To take over the country would require the collusion of many thousands of people -few of whom could keep their mouth shut about it in the first place. bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 10:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *>?*"Hey, let's just take over and junk the Constitution." > > > > "Are you crazy? Look at all the guns out there." > > > > It prevents people who would violate the constitution from being elected > to start with. > > > > > > > > >? I think this is as hard to believe as confiscation. Harder. > > > > bill w > > > > > > ??hell yes, we?re gonna take your AR-15, your AK7?? Beto O?Rourke. > > > > This is the comment that abruptly ended an emergent political career. He > was considered one of the front runners when that comment was uttered on 12 > September 2019. Now he is a forgotten nightmare. He couldn?t be elected > to Neighborhood Watch Captain now with that on his record. Adios amigo. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 16:18:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:18:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] shops opening >?I would point out donut shops ARE essential services for the boys/gals in blue! Well ja, there is that. Donut shops are perhaps the safest place to hang out in the whole city: always constables hanging around. Dylan et al, what is your take on this please? Does it seem plausible? If true, it is important: https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/coronavirus-clue-most-cases-aboard-stricken-us-aircraft-carrier-are-symptom-free ?The Navy's testing of the entire 4,800-member crew of the aircraft carrier - which is about 94 per cent complete - was an extraordinary move... ?Roughly 60 per cent of the over 600 sailors who tested positive so far have not shown symptoms of Covid-19, the potentially lethal respiratory disease caused by the coronavirus, the Navy says? We know that some people can carry HIV for decades and never develop AIDS. Others just spin right into the ground almost immediately. This carrier represents a big enough sample, carefully controlled (they have been quarantined together) where they know their medical histories, so this might be a really important dataset. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 16:31:55 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:31:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> >>* > *The militia isn?t about the police or fighting the army or any of that. > That isn?t what the second amendment is about. The police, the militia and > the army are all allies* >>?But I thought the second amendment was about making sure the government > never gets too big for their britches? *> That?s right. * > Then the US Army and the militia may not always be on the same side. *> John who do you think the army is going to fire upon with a tank?* Somebody who is not on the US Army's side. > Does it ever occur to you that the militia is not stupid rednecks with > shotguns? No that has not occurred to me, not after I read this: White Rabbit militia And this: Three Percenters and this: Oath Keepers Yep, it's stupid white supremacist rednecks with shotguns. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 16:36:01 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:36:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The pastry shop and Starbucks may have figured out that they are arguably "restaurants...for pickup/takeout only". So long as customers do not linger in the store after they have gotten their goods, the customers' activity - and thus level of exposure - is the same. Not sure about the dry cleaner's case. Maybe some bankers view them as essential support? Or do they offer to clean PPE? On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > I was out for a walk this morning and noticed two shops had opened: a > pastry shop, a Starbucks and a dry cleaner. There were two police cars > sitting in the parking lot, watching as customers came in and out (plenty > of them.) I didn?t see anyone packing close. > > > > This is an interesting development. In California, the state government > outranks the Fed, so by extension the city government outranks the state. > Clearly they aren?t stopping these donut shops from opening for business, > along with at least one dry cleaner. > > > > I don?t really know what happens if a local shop declares itself an > essential business, but I see three examples which have done so without > consequence. Perhaps they could accept the 50 dollar misdemeanor ticket > then request a trial, which won?t be until after the quarantine, then just > pay it at that time. They are standing orders from the governor to shut > down. OK, so what if they defy that and stay open, then the local > constables do nothing? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 16:45:02 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:45:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea Message-ID: John Clark wrote: >. Yesterday COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the quarantine right now is a good idea? If we don't get a vaccine and/or treatments, the only effect of the quarantine will be to slow down the spread. This keeps the medical sector from being overwhelmed which is a good thing. It decreases the death toll, but not a lot since the ones who wind up on ventilators usually die. Some countries, (Iran) and some states are not making any attempt to slow down the spread. We will be able to see the relative results. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 16:52:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:52:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> < CAO+xQEZzJh-aRyJ0Lur-JmKvPLJirPR5OyGY=4G=nyMUbOnEZw@mail.gmail.com> <006f01d614c9$a38da780$eaa8f680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006901d614d8$8fe57780$afb06680$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined It prevents people who would violate the constitution from being elected to start with. Spike So what are you worried about? If you are right, then confiscation and planning to take over the country doesn't get to first base once we learn their ideas. To take over the country would require the collusion of many thousands of people -few of whom could keep their mouth shut about it in the first place. bill w What am I worried about? That cascading business failures and subsequent failure of the federal government and state governments could cause suffering beyond our current imagination. All those scenarios the survivalists have been discussing since forever suddenly look a lot more plausible. Never mind government: I can imagine we are forced by circumstance re-open our economies and hope for the best, knowing that many may die of C-19. China lied, people died. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 16:55:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:55:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If I understood it correctly, the militia is every man from 17 to 45. All white supremicists, eh? bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 11:45 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> >>* >> *The militia isn?t about the police or fighting the army or any of that. >> That isn?t what the second amendment is about. The police, the militia and >> the army are all allies* > > > > >>?But I thought the second amendment was about making sure the >> government never gets too big for their britches? > > > > *> That?s right. * >> > > Then the US Army and the militia may not always be on the same side. > > *> John who do you think the army is going to fire upon with a tank?* > > > Somebody who is not on the US Army's side. > > > Does it ever occur to you that the militia is not stupid rednecks with >> shotguns? > > > No that has not occurred to me, not after I read this: > > White Rabbit militia > > > And this: > > Three Percenters > > and this: > > Oath Keepers > > Yep, it's stupid white supremacist rednecks with shotguns. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 17:02:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:02:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> < CAJPayv0=VkVKJdY83OjTTB836gGHK_u4+-9jbd08jex6UwWX2A@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 9:32 AM > Does it ever occur to you that the militia is not stupid rednecks with shotguns? No that has not occurred to me, not after I read this: White Rabbit militia And this: Three Percenters and this: Oath Keepers Yep, it's stupid white supremacist rednecks with shotguns. John K Clark John these links to White Rabbit, Three Percenters and Oath Keepers implicate you more than it does the militia: these groups are anti-government. The militia are pro-government. They are the backup government if the constitutional government fails. You have posted plenty of anti-government material here. You do realize that the current POTUS is the legally-elected head of the executive branch, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:21:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:21:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bought this book thinking that I could understand it more than it appears that I can. It is written by a man who has been in the field of AI for a long time, and now wants to create a math that does what statistics cannot do: answer why. The book is The Book of Why: The New Science of Cause and Effect. by Judea Pearl (winner of the 2011 Turing Award) Check it out on Amazon. I will consider requests and send it to someone who tells me it's in their field. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:28:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:28:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If I understood it correctly, the militia is every man from 17 to 45. > Where in the world did you get that very silly idea? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:35:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:35:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> You do realize that the current POTUS is the legally-elected head of the > executive branch, ja?* Elected in an election with only 538 voters. I was not one of them and as far as I know neither was any member of this list. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:48:36 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:48:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: <7A6654F7-8CBF-40AC-92B6-CF622B2D8A2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:15 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:50 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 7:11 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Apr 16, 2020, at 5:30 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >>>> >>>> ### I actually agree with you that keeping serial burglars in prison is >>>> a poor solution to the problem. My inclination would be to just kill them. >>>> >>>> >>>> Which would result in, no doubt, many cases of serial burglars becoming >>>> more violent. In other words, likely a case of the cure being worse than >>>> the disease. >>>> >>> >>> ### A increased threat of being killed (by homeowners indemnified for >>> shooting invaders, or by automated security devices, or by constables >>> identifying you from security or traffic camera footage or by the hangman >>> after a quick trial) would be an inducement to commit more violence, rather >>> than back down? >>> >>> How would that inducement to violence work, precisely? >>> >> >> Destroy the cameras and kill all witnesses. It's one thing if they're >> just going to jail, but if they will probably die if they leave anyone or >> anything that would recognize them, the cost of such destruction becomes >> worth it in more cases. >> > > ### Well, destroying *all* cameras? That's a tall order, mechanically, > whenever premises are protected by hidden or cloud-connected cameras. If > destroying cameras is easy, they would do it even if not threatened with > death. If it's difficult - they won't burglarize, knowing they will die for > their crime. > Their perceived choices: * Burgle but don't destroy, get caught, and die. * Don't burgle, starve, and die. (This is almost always a false perception - there are many other ways to not starve - but it is what they believe.) * Burgle and be as destructive as possible, leaving no witnesses mechanical or living, and don't die. Pillaging - thorough destruction - is remarkably easy, if one is committed to destruction as one's only choice for survival. > I would like to have the option of killing burglars who invade my house, > or having them killed by hired enforcers, without fear of prosecution > You have that option today, if you are bloody minded enough. Just make sure to kill them all, and that all surviving witnesses will agree there was the perception of a threat that merited deadly force in response. Should the burglar escape wounded - or should some burglars escape while others in the same burglary die - then the escapees may sue. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:52:14 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:52:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike- Thanks for posting this, as I had not seen it yet, but for me, it is one more plank for the hypothesis that I have been working with based strictly on my own armchair analysis. We have seen prior evidence that a very large portion of CV-19 positive carriers are completely asymptomatic (especially younger, healthy ones). My working theory is that CV-19 got to the US earlier than suspected by many, and has spread to way more people than many suspect in areas like the NYC metro region. I think it is extremely contagious and aerolizes very easily despite what we were originally told, and that if we had been encouraged to wear masks early on (assuming one could find them) that the spread would have been greatly slowed. My buddy who is a paramedic who did have very good proper PPE and followed best practices still ended up with it. People on the cruise ship also got it even in quarantine which points to it easily getting onto food service items from those workers or through the ventilation system. I also suspect the real CFR is pretty close to typical influenza and that the German CFR is not an outlier due to the total infected counts being WAY under counted. Based on SARs patterns alone (a very simple model), I suspect this will have run its course in the US by early June (with some possible flare ups in localized hot spots). I also find it highly likely that it will be seasonal and die off over the summer despite some of the "experts" saying otherwise. Since we've already gone down the path of destroying the US economy (which I was against), I think we should probably keep the NYC metro region in the status quo through the end of May and then start reopening it in stages as proposed by the Feds. I think any states that don't have a big problem with it should begin that phased reopening TODAY. I think high risk groups should continue to avoid going out more than necessary and continue more extreme measures until better treatment or a vaccine is developed. There are still a lot of open questions around immunity and the possibility of recurrence, but for me, this entire exercise has been a HUGE overreaction. Sweden may be getting a lot of bad press recently with the number of deaths, but their curves on active cases look the same as everyone else's at far less economic cost. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] shops opening > > > > > > > > >?I would point out donut shops ARE essential services for the boys/gals > in blue! > > > > Well ja, there is that. Donut shops are perhaps the safest place to hang > out in the whole city: always constables hanging around. > > > > Dylan et al, what is your take on this please? Does it seem plausible? > If true, it is important: > > > > > https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/coronavirus-clue-most-cases-aboard-stricken-us-aircraft-carrier-are-symptom-free > > > > ?The Navy's testing of the entire 4,800-member crew of the aircraft > carrier - which is about 94 per cent complete - was an extraordinary move... > > ?Roughly 60 per cent of the over 600 sailors who tested positive so far > have not shown symptoms of Covid-19, the potentially lethal respiratory > disease caused by the coronavirus, the Navy says? > > We know that some people can carry HIV for decades and never develop > AIDS. Others just spin right into the ground almost immediately. > > > > This carrier represents a big enough sample, carefully controlled (they > have been quarantined together) where they know their medical histories, so > this might be a really important dataset. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 17:57:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:57:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> < CAJPayv0=VkVKJdY83OjTTB836gGHK_u4+-9jbd08jex6UwWX2A@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c001d614e1$a30f3bd0$e92db370$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > If I understood it correctly, the militia is every man from 17 to 45. Where in the world did you get that very silly idea? John K Clark 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia: composition and classes * U.S. Code * Notes prev | next (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b)The classes of the militia are? (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. John offered us three examples of terrorist groups, claiming they were militia. Does everyone (else) see the problem here? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:02:05 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:02:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Government force and the constitution (was: more deaths...) Message-ID: All this talk about the constitution's bearing on WMDs is pointless. If you have one, you will be attacked by the government. Period. If you're amassing weapons--same deal. Just look at what happened in Waco. In the end it is all about power. We have a social contract with the government. Each party has certain kinds of power. The government's power is derived from the people, but as it grows, it becomes self-sustaining. One of the things the government can do with all the power (literally, as in physics: work/time) amassed from us is stockpile a huge amount of weapons and pay people to use them in enforcement. If the government decides you are violating the social contract--well, they make the rules. No legal argument will fly in the case of someone stockpiling something like anthrax or nuclear weapons. I think a case could be made for not prosecuting someone stockpiling weapons and conventional bombs, but that could be a tough case if you are engaging in ANY kind of anti-government activity, even just protesting or posting online. The government has the power to get the best lawyers, do the best investigative work on you and all your skeletons, and even influence the media against you. The constitution is more fragile than you may think. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 18:05:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:05:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> < CAJPayv0=VkVKJdY83OjTTB836gGHK_u4+-9jbd08jex6UwWX2A@mail.gmail.com> <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00cc01d614e2$c8fce670$5af6b350$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > You do realize that the current POTUS is the legally-elected head of the executive branch, ja? Elected in an election with only 538 voters. I was not one of them and as far as I know neither was any member of this list. John K Clark John, your quarrel is with the US government and the US constitution, not us. I am pro-government and pro-constitution. I am an ally of the militia. You are anti-government and anti-militia. You have become the exact thing you claim to loathe. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:15:07 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:15:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John- Are you originally from another country? I ask because the US has never been a direct democracy. Have you been lobbying your entire adult life to get rid of the electoral college or only when you get results out of it that you don't like? It's the United STATES of America BTW. We are not governed from the top outside of powers granted to the Federal government explicitly by the Constitution. We're also not governed by the direct wishes of the unwashed masses in their entirety (which I would think you'd be happy about with your disdain for most of them). The US model is shared sovereignty between individual states and the Feds. It's a feature, not a bug. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:56 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> You do realize that the current POTUS is the legally-elected head of >> the executive branch, ja?* > > > Elected in an election with only 538 voters. I was not one of them and as > far as I know neither was any member of this list. > > John K Clark > > > > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:28:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:28:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <00c001d614e1$a30f3bd0$e92db370$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <00c001d614e1$a30f3bd0$e92db370$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia* What does "10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia" have to do with the nature of reality? If some bozo in Washington says I'm in a militia but I've never even heard of a militia then I'm not in a militia. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 19:17:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:17:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> < CAO+xQEbvvR4-8Xqi5pExp1GAQ3ECWWikzfs_v0MiBGooCTWhzA@mail.gmail.com> <00c001d614e1$a30f3bd0$e92db370$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005601d614ec$e643d1d0$b2cb7570$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 11:29 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia What does "10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia" have to do with the nature of reality? If some bozo in Washington says I'm in a militia but I've never even heard of a militia then I'm not in a militia. John K Clark John you substituted the legal definition of militia with your own definition of militia, and offered three examples of terrorist groups, none of which are militias. Then you made arrogantly racist comments regarding people of body parts of color (red is a color and neck is a body part.) Then you expect us to accept your version of reality? Indeed? I reject your version of reality. You really don?t make it sound like fun to be you. You make it sound like constant bitter suffering to be you. On the other hand, I am really enjoying being me. I did even during the previous two administrations, for I know that government isn?t everything. Some of your posts are about science, and we read your stuff because of that. But you come across as two different people. Be the science guy. Don?t let your science knowledge go to your head or cloud your judgment. If you understand particle physics, you don?t necessarily understand everything. I know I don?t; I don?t claim to. So I take the road of tolerance. Do ye likewise please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:33:11 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:33:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:45 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > t*he US has never been a direct democracy. * > I know, it's never even been indirect democracy, its had that flaw from day one. > Have you been lobbying your entire adult life to get rid of the electoral > college > More than my adult life, I thought the electoral college was stupid from the very first day I learned of its existence in my fifth grade civics class, I kept asking my teacher to explain what the point of it was but I didn't get a satisfactory answer, and I still haven't. > or only when you get results out of it that you don't like? > I asked this of Spike now let me ask you, would you still be a big fan of the electoral college if California was as conservative as Wyoming and Wyoming as liberal as California? Would you still be saying the electoral college leads to better government if a liberal voter had 66.7 times as much influence over who the next commander in chief would be as a conservative voter? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 19:47:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:47:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new theory Message-ID: <000501d614f1$0d317ff0$27947fd0$@rainier66.com> With the recent surge in chatter here, and since there aren?t that many of us left, I propose relaxing guidelines on number of posts per day. We instituted that back in the 90s when there were a coupla hundred regular posters. Now it is down to the usual suspects, about a dozen. I propose we all just post away. Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 exposure than we previously thought. My doctor contacted and wants me to come in for testing when the quarantine is over. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know what it was. I landed in the hospital. It was most unpleasant, but afterwards I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid. I assumed it was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of magnitude. We have a lot of regular travelers to and from China in the area. In retrospect, it is very possible that I had Covid-19. It took me four weeks to feel better, and about seven weeks before I really felt completely back to normal. If so, it would agree with what Stanford U found. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:50:06 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:50:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'll answer you, yes, I would. Putting aside the political implications, I believe states that have less population than others should still have *some* influence on an election that avoids completely disregarding the will of that state compared to others. I'll remind you that the Federal government does not have absolute authority over the states that have agreed to be part of this republic, and neither do voters in other states. California is still compensated for its larger population under the electoral system which I'm sure you understand since you're probably capable of a lot more advanced math than I am based on your posts where you stick to science. Do you also think that states with greater populations should have the same number of US representatives as every other state? Why should state population be taken into account in Congress if it's not in the POTUS voting? I live in CT. If I don't vote D, my vote is thrown away since this state inexplicably runs blue despite a lot of wealth and is determined to self destruct regardless of how bad it gets here. I don't like this, but never once have I thought I would shift to a popular vote model if given a choice. If things get beyond the point where I'm willing to put up with them, I'll move to another state that has more of what I'm looking for. As Spike mentioned, it's one of the biggest strengths of our system of government. It's a n=50 lab for experimenting with policy. For me, the electoral system is part of the genius of the system as it was defined all those years ago. I think popular vote would be disastrous for the long term cohesion of this country. As it is, we're hanging by a thread. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:34 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:45 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I asked this of Spike now let me ask you, would you still be a big fan of > the electoral college if California was as conservative as Wyoming and > Wyoming as liberal as California? Would you still be saying the electoral > college leads to better government if a liberal voter had 66.7 times as > much influence over who the next commander in chief would be as a > conservative voter? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:51:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:51:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <005601d614ec$e643d1d0$b2cb7570$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <00c001d614e1$a30f3bd0$e92db370$@rainier66.com> <005601d614ec$e643d1d0$b2cb7570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John you substituted the legal definition of militia with your own > definition of militia, * No, I just recognized the fact that a legal definition does not necessarily change the nature of reality, and it most certainly hasn't in this case. > you made arrogantly racist comments regarding people of body parts of > color No, I made contemptuous comments about people who think the amount of melanin in a person's skin is of SUPREME importance and there is a inverse relationship between inherent virtue and the amount of that pigment. And I stand by every word. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 20:00:39 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:00:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] new theory In-Reply-To: <000501d614f1$0d317ff0$27947fd0$@rainier66.com> References: <000501d614f1$0d317ff0$27947fd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I have a similar story that I shared with another list prior to any mention of CV-19 in the US. I had an extremely virulent viral respiratory infection (quick tested negative for flu) in mid January (I am exposed to NYC a lot and commute there as well from CT). After it getting worse and worse over the course of a week and a cough that resulted in a cracked rib due to its severity, I drove myself to the ER when I felt like something was wrong with my oxygen levels. It turned out I was right, and ended up on O2, nebulizers, and IV steroids. CT scan was negative for visible pneumonia, but my lymphocytes were extremely low on intake bloodwork (a calling card of CV-19, although in fairness, it's possible a different virus could do the same). I was finally able to get my O2 levels up to normal after a day in the ER after begging the doc not to admit me (he was planning on it, and only let me out after my O2 came back). After a week on oral steroids, I finally started to feel a great deal better, but it took me around 3 weeks for full recovery, and I had a chronic cough for months afterwards. I can't remember ever getting a severe flu, and tend to not get respiratory infections at all. This was like nothing I've ever experienced. I would love to get an ELISA done (or other serological test) to see if I am running an antibody titre but that possibility seems slim right now. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:48 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > With the recent surge in chatter here, and since there aren?t that many of > us left, I propose relaxing guidelines on number of posts per day. We > instituted that back in the 90s when there were a coupla hundred regular > posters. Now it is down to the usual suspects, about a dozen. I propose > we all just post away. > > > > Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 exposure > than we previously thought. My doctor contacted and wants me to come in > for testing when the quarantine is over. > > > > > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA > > > > I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know what > it was. I landed in the hospital. It was most unpleasant, but afterwards > I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid. I assumed it > was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of magnitude. > > > > We have a lot of regular travelers to and from China in the area. In > retrospect, it is very possible that I had Covid-19. It took me four weeks > to feel better, and about seven weeks before I really felt completely back > to normal. If so, it would agree with what Stanford U found. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Fri Apr 17 20:02:41 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 01:32:41 +0530 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: References: <002601d614ce$56056160$02102420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: And deep learning is *incredibly* data hungry. I've worked in a start-up trying to build self driving cars (I worked on navigation) and i had to quit because of how frustrating it got - it really showed me how much data deep learning demands to be good and how brittle it is. We're very far from a AI. As for Stanford weekly seminars, I didn't know about them, I'll check them out. &Kunvar On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 9:40 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Spike- > > I believe they're referring to the thaw in the AI winter DUE to deep > learning's success in recent years (so the thaw has been going on for quite > some while, really at least a decade). That said, I personally think we > may be ended up heading back into the winter. As impressive as deep > learning has been for SOME applications, it remains brittle and we seem to > be hitting walls (i.e. it is becoming apparent that Level 5 driving cars > are going to be extremely difficult to release into the real world wild > with multiple complications, bad weather, etc. than people originally > predicted based on the limits of current algos). I remain skeptical that > we'll see a true level 5 vehicle without a breakthrough in strong AI. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 11:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Stanford weekly seminars are quite good. I have half a mind to tune in >> to this discussion today. >> >> >> >> >> https://hai.stanford.edu/events/hai-weekly-seminar-vinay-uday-prabhu-four-horsemen-ethical-malice-peer-reviewed-machine?utm_source=Stanford+University&utm_campaign=0f2d627924-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_03_13_10_26_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_aaf04f4a4b-0f2d627924-199837799 >> >> >> >> This comment about thawing of the AI winter caught my attention. What is >> that? I didn?t realize we were in an AI winter. >> >> >> >> AI hipsters, do offer an educational comment please. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> EVENT TODAY! >> >> HAI Weekly Seminar with Vinay Uday Prabhu >> >> On the Four Horsemen of Ethical Malice in Peer-Reviewed Machine Learning >> Literature >> >> >> >> April 17, 2020 >> >> 11:00AM PDT >> >> Add to Calendar >> >> >> >> >> >> Speaker Bio: Vinay Prabhu is currently the Chief Scientist at UnifyID >> Inc, where he leads efforts towards architecting and deploying the >> state-of-the-art passive mobile biometrics solution by bringing together >> machine learning algorithms and smart-sensor data to model the human behind >> the device. >> >> >> >> Abstract: The thawing of the AI winter and the subsequent deep learning >> revolution has been marked by large scale open-source-driven >> democratization efforts and a paper publishing frenzy. As we navigate >> through this massive corpus of technical literature, four categories of >> ethical transgressions come to fore: Dataset curation, Modeling, Problem >> definitions and sycophantic tech-journalism. In this talk, we will explore >> specific examples in each of these categories with a strong focus on >> computer vision. The goal of this talk is to not just demonstrate the >> widespread usage of these datasets and models, but to also elicit a >> commitment from the attending scholars to either not use these datasets or >> models, or to insert an ethical caveat in case of unavoidable usage? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 20:24:51 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:24:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <00c001d614e1$a30f3bd0$e92db370$@rainier66.com> <005601d614ec$e643d1d0$b2cb7570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John--why not move to Wyoming so your vote counts more? Why don't the coastal elites move to Kansas and become farmers? Because it sucks. Those votes are the prize for being farm slaves for the entire country. Not worth it in my opinion, and most people I know agree. They seem happy to have theoretically less vote power in exchange for living somewhere with interesting food and culture, etc. Not to rag on the boonies but, yeah. Living in a city is a fair trade imo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 20:45:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:45:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <00c001d614e1$a30f3bd0$e92db370$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <00c001d614e1$a30f3bd0$e92db370$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > *Silly old Constitution, eh? But not silly old Bill, eh John? C'mon, be > a man and admit you made a mistake stemming from an ad hominem argument > (silly man)* and not reading the post the other day. > bill not silly W (thanks to Spike for the U S code) > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > If I understood it correctly, the militia is every man from 17 to 45. > > > > Where in the world did you get that very silly idea? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > 10 U.S. Code ??246.Militia: composition and classes > > ? U.S. Code > > > ? Notes > > > prev | next > > *(a)* > > The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at > least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32 > , under 45 years of age > who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of > the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are > members of the National Guard. > > *(b)*The classes of the militia are? > > *(1)* > > the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval > Militia; and > > *(2)* > > the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who > are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. > > > > > > John offered us three examples of terrorist groups, claiming they were > militia. > > > > Does everyone (else) see the problem here? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 20:50:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:50:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Government force and the constitution (was: more deaths...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: will wrote: I think a case could be made for not prosecuting someone stockpiling weapons and conventional bombs Hah! Do you think that since the gov already monitors fertilizer sales that they would pay no attention to people buying bombs? Legally, I dunno, but I would bet that that person will have the FBI on his neck the rest of his life, should he live so long. bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:33 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > All this talk about the constitution's bearing on WMDs is pointless. If > you have one, you will be attacked by the government. Period. If you're > amassing weapons--same deal. Just look at what happened in Waco. > > In the end it is all about power. We have a social contract with the > government. Each party has certain kinds of power. The government's power > is derived from the people, but as it grows, it becomes self-sustaining. > > One of the things the government can do with all the power (literally, as > in physics: work/time) amassed from us is stockpile a huge amount of > weapons and pay people to use them in enforcement. If the government > decides you are violating the social contract--well, they make the rules. > No legal argument will fly in the case of someone stockpiling something > like anthrax or nuclear weapons. > > I think a case could be made for not prosecuting someone stockpiling > weapons and conventional bombs, but that could be a tough case if you are > engaging in ANY kind of anti-government activity, even just protesting or > posting online. The government has the power to get the best lawyers, do > the best investigative work on you and all your skeletons, and even > influence the media against you. > > The constitution is more fragile than you may think. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:03:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:03:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: <7A6654F7-8CBF-40AC-92B6-CF622B2D8A2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: re burglary: There is an interesting mental disorder, a fetish, in which the person cannot have an orgasm unless they break into a house (think Freudian symbolism). This explains those cases where there is a breakin but nothing stolen. But the good part comes (so to speak) when the police catch him and find out the reason he breaks in but do not believe him. They set up a window and yell at him: All right you! Go through that window!! They then arrest the ones with the wet pants. Actually true (though not about the police test) bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:15 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:50 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 7:11 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Apr 16, 2020, at 5:30 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >>>>> >>>>> ### I actually agree with you that keeping serial burglars in prison >>>>> is a poor solution to the problem. My inclination would be to just kill >>>>> them. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Which would result in, no doubt, many cases of serial burglars >>>>> becoming more violent. In other words, likely a case of the cure being >>>>> worse than the disease. >>>>> >>>> >>>> ### A increased threat of being killed (by homeowners indemnified for >>>> shooting invaders, or by automated security devices, or by constables >>>> identifying you from security or traffic camera footage or by the hangman >>>> after a quick trial) would be an inducement to commit more violence, rather >>>> than back down? >>>> >>>> How would that inducement to violence work, precisely? >>>> >>> >>> Destroy the cameras and kill all witnesses. It's one thing if they're >>> just going to jail, but if they will probably die if they leave anyone or >>> anything that would recognize them, the cost of such destruction becomes >>> worth it in more cases. >>> >> >> ### Well, destroying *all* cameras? That's a tall order, mechanically, >> whenever premises are protected by hidden or cloud-connected cameras. If >> destroying cameras is easy, they would do it even if not threatened with >> death. If it's difficult - they won't burglarize, knowing they will die for >> their crime. >> > > Their perceived choices: > * Burgle but don't destroy, get caught, and die. > * Don't burgle, starve, and die. (This is almost always a false > perception - there are many other ways to not starve - but it is what they > believe.) > * Burgle and be as destructive as possible, leaving no witnesses > mechanical or living, and don't die. > > Pillaging - thorough destruction - is remarkably easy, if one is committed > to destruction as one's only choice for survival. > > >> I would like to have the option of killing burglars who invade my house, >> or having them killed by hired enforcers, without fear of prosecution >> > > You have that option today, if you are bloody minded enough. Just make > sure to kill them all, and that all surviving witnesses will agree there > was the perception of a threat that merited deadly force in response. > Should the burglar escape wounded - or should some burglars escape while > others in the same burglary die - then the escapees may sue. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:21:22 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:21:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Government force and the constitution (was: more deaths...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree, but I don't think it would be a 100% conviction like it would with anthrax or something like that. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 16:53 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > will wrote: I think a case could be made for not prosecuting someone > stockpiling weapons and conventional bombs > Hah! Do you think that since the gov already monitors fertilizer sales > that they would pay no attention to people buying bombs? Legally, I dunno, > but I would bet that that person will have the FBI on his neck the rest of > his life, should he live so long. bill w > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:33 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> All this talk about the constitution's bearing on WMDs is pointless. If >> you have one, you will be attacked by the government. Period. If you're >> amassing weapons--same deal. Just look at what happened in Waco. >> >> In the end it is all about power. We have a social contract with the >> government. Each party has certain kinds of power. The government's power >> is derived from the people, but as it grows, it becomes self-sustaining. >> >> One of the things the government can do with all the power (literally, as >> in physics: work/time) amassed from us is stockpile a huge amount of >> weapons and pay people to use them in enforcement. If the government >> decides you are violating the social contract--well, they make the rules. >> No legal argument will fly in the case of someone stockpiling something >> like anthrax or nuclear weapons. >> >> I think a case could be made for not prosecuting someone stockpiling >> weapons and conventional bombs, but that could be a tough case if you are >> engaging in ANY kind of anti-government activity, even just protesting or >> posting online. The government has the power to get the best lawyers, do >> the best investigative work on you and all your skeletons, and even >> influence the media against you. >> >> The constitution is more fragile than you may think. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:39:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:39:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Government force and the constitution (was: more deaths...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:23 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I agree, but I don't think it would be a 100% conviction like it would > with anthrax or something like that. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 16:53 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> will wrote: I think a case could be made for not prosecuting someone >> stockpiling weapons and conventional bombs >> Hah! Do you think that since the gov already monitors fertilizer sales >> that they would pay no attention to people buying bombs? Legally, I dunno, >> but I would bet that that person will have the FBI on his neck the rest of >> his life, should he live so long. bill w >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:33 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> All this talk about the constitution's bearing on WMDs is pointless. If >>> you have one, you will be attacked by the government. Period. If you're >>> amassing weapons--same deal. Just look at what happened in Waco. >>> >>> In the end it is all about power. We have a social contract with the >>> government. Each party has certain kinds of power. The government's power >>> is derived from the people, but as it grows, it becomes self-sustaining. >>> >>> One of the things the government can do with all the power (literally, >>> as in physics: work/time) amassed from us is stockpile a huge amount of >>> weapons and pay people to use them in enforcement. If the government >>> decides you are violating the social contract--well, they make the rules. >>> No legal argument will fly in the case of someone stockpiling something >>> like anthrax or nuclear weapons. >>> >>> I think a case could be made for not prosecuting someone stockpiling >>> weapons and conventional bombs, but that could be a tough case if you are >>> engaging in ANY kind of anti-government activity, even just protesting or >>> posting online. The government has the power to get the best lawyers, do >>> the best investigative work on you and all your skeletons, and even >>> influence the media against you. >>> >>> The constitution is more fragile than you may think. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:44:42 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:44:42 +1000 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 23:27, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *?* > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq > wars combined > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat: > > > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 11:17, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > >>?I notice a common notion among those who do not believe that a militia > is necessary to the security of the free state: they cannot fathom a > situation where the government cannot pay the soldiers and police. They > cannot understand how a government would not be able to pay. That isn?t > the least bit difficult for me to imagine, and hasn?t been for decades. > ?What if? we try to re-open the economy, but every time we do, there is a > massive new outbreak, resulting in a new lockdown? And what if that > continues? For months? What if longer than that? Then businesses fail in > unison. Tax revenues dwindle to nearly nothing. Is that difficult to > imagine? > > ?spike > > > > >?Well, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the citizens should > have arms so that they can resist the Government if they tried to abuse > their power? > > > > Hi Stathis, > > > > In the scenario easily envisioned, the government fails and isn?t really > in the picture. > > > > >?The only real power the Government has is through employees that can use > force, such as the police and the armed forces; surely you don?t believe > that Donald Trump himself will force his way into your home in order to > take the gold you have buried in the garden? > > > > No, governments abusing power would come in other forms besides breaking > into homes where there isn?t much to seize. It would be in the form of > seizing 401Ks, bank accounts and retirement accounts. Gold isn?t worth > much in these scenarios. The currency of choice is food and ammo, but the > government already has plenty of that. > > > > >?Now you are talking about something quite different: what if the > Government cannot pay its employees? Then I suppose they will ask for > volunteers, or reintroduce the draft, which is essentially a form of > slavery? > > > > Draft: there would be no draft. The Fed would need to furlough most of > the military it already employs. > > > > They don?t need to ask for volunteers, they already have them: the > militias. The government doesn?t pay the militias, nor does it feed, arm > or clothe them. They already thought of that and wrote it into the > constitution from the start, over 230 yrs ago. > > > > In 1789, the notion that the Federal government could go bankrupt was a > very real and present danger. They needed a contingency plan, for their > finances back then were nearly as shaky and dubious as the US government?s > finances are today. > > > > (Well, OK that?s a bit of a stretch, but they were on some pretty shaky > ground back in the 1780s.) > > > > >?That would suck, but it would probably wouldn?t suck any less if there > were millions of people running around with guns. -- Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > In the USA, there are already millions of people running around with guns; > it has always been that way. The best estimates are that there are > somewhere around 400 million guns in America. Some of us have more than > one of course. Those millions of people running around with guns are why > the US government hasn?t already seized more power than the Constitution > allows. > So you say, but is there any evidence of large numbers of Government officials who dream of increasing their power but haven?t done so due to a fear of citizens with guns? Some sort of survey, or even a series of anecdotes? > There are somewhere between 8 billion and 15 billion rounds of ammo sold > in the USA per year, and not all of that is fired. Ammo tends to > accumulate, because it keeps forever (army surplus WW1 ammo still works > perfectly even though it is over 100 yrs old) and is an excellent reserve > currency (better than gold.) Reasonable estimates suggest there are > perhaps half a trillion rounds of ammo in the US alone. The NRA bumper > sticker has the ring of truth: if we were the problem, believe me, you > would know. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 22:05:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:05:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> < CAH=2ypUhjesue3-jnrb710RmcpWDmR=UA1C6gbuRhrrGHfAe3w@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003e01d61504$5ed3a730$1c7af590$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat In the USA, there are already millions of people running around with guns?Those millions of people running around with guns are why the US government hasn?t already seized more power than the Constitution allows. >?So you say, but is there any evidence of large numbers of Government officials who dream of increasing their power but haven?t done so due to a fear of citizens with guns? Some sort of survey, or even a series of anecdotes? The office we really need to watch is POTUS. That one attracts power-grabbers. The classic example is worrying a POTUS will refuse to leave office if he loses re-election or terms out. The CONUS was set up to deal with that: the Supreme Court is in charge of swearing in whoever they judge won the election. Then the military takes orders from whoever is sworn in. Stathis, the US system works extremely well. It has remained stable all this time, even through a civil war, a crushing extended depression, a disputed election in 2000, all these things, the system has demonstrated itself to be robust. If you wish to argue that the shooting gallery which is Chicago and a few other hot spots would be safer, a stabbing gallery instead if not for the second amendment, eh, I consider that mess a reasonable price to pay for keeping government in check. The obvious solution is to stay out of those areas where people shoot each other. It is pretty easy to avoid them: outsiders have no business in there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 17 22:37:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:37:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <003e01d61504$5ed3a730$1c7af590$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> < CAH=2ypUhjesue3-jnrb710RmcpWDmR=UA1C6gbuRhrrGHfAe3w@mail.gmail.com> <003e01d61504$5ed3a730$1c7af590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001801d61508$ca75ae80$5f610b80$@rainier66.com> Cool we get a test case for those who claim government power is whatever it is. I say it is whatever the constitution allows. This is a case where a teen suspected she had C-19, she tested negative, but the doctors couldn?t rule out they had passed the testing window or that they had gotten a test kit made in China (nearly all of which return negative results.) The sheriff demanded she remove the Instagram post in which she warned others of possible exposure. The family complied. Now they are suing the pants offa that sheriff. Good for her: check that power-drunk fool: https://reason.com/2020/04/17/a-teenager-posted-about-her-covid-19-infection-on-instagram-a-deputy-threatened-to-arrest-her-if-she-didnt-delete-it/?utm_medium=email spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 22:49:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:49:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the citizens should have arms so that they can resist the Government if they tried to abuse their power? stathis A lot of people think that way. Some of the radical militias, such as white supramacists, envision battling U S military trying to take over their possessions, esp. their guns. I think that if the U S gov. tried to reduce constitutional rights, there would be a big march on Washington - millions of people, preferably *without* weapons. Guiness level sitins. bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:48 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 23:27, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >> *?* >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq >> wars combined >> >> >> >> *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat: >> >> >> >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 11:17, spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>?I notice a common notion among those who do not believe that a >> militia is necessary to the security of the free state: they cannot fathom >> a situation where the government cannot pay the soldiers and police. They >> cannot understand how a government would not be able to pay. That isn?t >> the least bit difficult for me to imagine, and hasn?t been for decades. >> ?What if? we try to re-open the economy, but every time we do, there is a >> massive new outbreak, resulting in a new lockdown? And what if that >> continues? For months? What if longer than that? Then businesses fail in >> unison. Tax revenues dwindle to nearly nothing. Is that difficult to >> imagine? >> >> ?spike >> >> >> >> >?Well, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying the citizens should >> have arms so that they can resist the Government if they tried to abuse >> their power? >> >> >> >> Hi Stathis, >> >> >> >> In the scenario easily envisioned, the government fails and isn?t really >> in the picture. >> >> >> >> >?The only real power the Government has is through employees that can >> use force, such as the police and the armed forces; surely you don?t >> believe that Donald Trump himself will force his way into your home in >> order to take the gold you have buried in the garden? >> >> >> >> No, governments abusing power would come in other forms besides breaking >> into homes where there isn?t much to seize. It would be in the form of >> seizing 401Ks, bank accounts and retirement accounts. Gold isn?t worth >> much in these scenarios. The currency of choice is food and ammo, but the >> government already has plenty of that. >> >> >> >> >?Now you are talking about something quite different: what if the >> Government cannot pay its employees? Then I suppose they will ask for >> volunteers, or reintroduce the draft, which is essentially a form of >> slavery? >> >> >> >> Draft: there would be no draft. The Fed would need to furlough most of >> the military it already employs. >> >> >> >> They don?t need to ask for volunteers, they already have them: the >> militias. The government doesn?t pay the militias, nor does it feed, arm >> or clothe them. They already thought of that and wrote it into the >> constitution from the start, over 230 yrs ago. >> >> >> >> In 1789, the notion that the Federal government could go bankrupt was a >> very real and present danger. They needed a contingency plan, for their >> finances back then were nearly as shaky and dubious as the US government?s >> finances are today. >> >> >> >> (Well, OK that?s a bit of a stretch, but they were on some pretty shaky >> ground back in the 1780s.) >> >> >> >> >?That would suck, but it would probably wouldn?t suck any less if there >> were millions of people running around with guns. -- Stathis Papaioannou >> >> >> >> >> >> In the USA, there are already millions of people running around with >> guns; it has always been that way. The best estimates are that there are >> somewhere around 400 million guns in America. Some of us have more than >> one of course. Those millions of people running around with guns are why >> the US government hasn?t already seized more power than the Constitution >> allows. >> > So you say, but is there any evidence of large numbers of Government > officials who dream of increasing their power but haven?t done so due to a > fear of citizens with guns? Some sort of survey, or even a series of > anecdotes? > >> There are somewhere between 8 billion and 15 billion rounds of ammo sold >> in the USA per year, and not all of that is fired. Ammo tends to >> accumulate, because it keeps forever (army surplus WW1 ammo still works >> perfectly even though it is over 100 yrs old) and is an excellent reserve >> currency (better than gold.) Reasonable estimates suggest there are >> perhaps half a trillion rounds of ammo in the US alone. The NRA bumper >> sticker has the ring of truth: if we were the problem, believe me, you >> would know. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 23:40:47 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:40:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:43 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I bought this book thinking that I could understand it more than it > appears that I can. It is written by a man who has been in the field of AI > for a long time, and now wants to create a math that does what statistics > cannot do: answer why. > > The book is The Book of Why: The New Science of Cause and Effect. by > Judea Pearl (winner of the 2011 Turing Award) > > Check it out on Amazon. I will consider requests and send it to someone > who tells me it's in their field. > > ### It's the best book I read last year! Pearl is a genius, he should be much better known. I learned a lot from this book. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 23:42:24 2020 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 23:42:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Spike and ExI friends, ? ? ?How are you doing? I am not a regular writer here, but I do try to read most messages since there are excellent contributions, and some people here that I admire and follow from many years! ? ? ?How many participants are there in the list now? I imagine most are like me, who do not participate actively? ? ? ?By the way, I am planning to organize the next TransVision conference in Madrid, during October 16-18, or later depending on the pandemic, and I would like to invite you all to come. It will be safe, fun, educational, and immortal, so kindly share with others too, and let me know if you can participate, please:?https://www.transvisionmadrid.com/ ? ? ?Finally, let me share with you my interview/article/profile in the latest issue of the Alcor Cryonics magazine, I hope that you have a few minutes to take a look and comment:?Cryonics Magazine 2019 | | | | Cryonics Magazine 2019 | | | ? ? ?Best of luck, keep safe, wash your hands, and welcome to Spain after the pandemic... ? ? ?Futuristically yours, ? ? ?La vie est belle! Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD?(www.cordeiro.org) On Friday, April 17, 2020, 09:48:44 PM GMT+2, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: ? ? With the recent surge in chatter here, and since there aren?t that many of us left, I propose relaxing guidelines on number of posts per day.? We instituted that back in the 90s when there were a coupla hundred regular posters.? Now it is down to the usual suspects, about a dozen.? I propose we all just post away. ? Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 exposure than we previously thought.? My doctor contacted and wants me to come in for testing when the quarantine is over. ? https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA ? I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know what it was.? I landed in the hospital.? It was most unpleasant, but afterwards I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid.? I assumed it was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of magnitude.? ? We have a lot of regular travelers to and from China in the area.? In retrospect, it is very possible that I had Covid-19.? It took me four weeks to feel better, and about seven weeks before I really felt completely back to normal.? If so, it would agree with what Stanford U found. ? spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 23:47:13 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:47:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Why farmers? was more deaths Message-ID: Will Steinberg wrote: > Why don't the coastal elites move to Kansas and become farmers? > Because it sucks. Those votes are the prize for being farm slaves for the entire country. Not worth it in my opinion, and most people I know agree. This can be understood from evolution. For the last 12,000 years or so, most of our ancestors were farmers--mine were up to a couple of generations ago. That's enough time for selection to have acted on genes for whatever psychological traits are important for being a successful farmer. There are a fair number of such psychological traits. I can't name all of them, but I remember reading about some people who did not have the genetic (and cultural) background for being a farmer. Even *given* a working farm, it was beyond them. They could not grok that cows have to be milked twice a day. The people who are farmers in the current world are the result of 12,000 years of selection. They are highly self-motivated and *like* farming. That's fortunate for us who live in cities and like that. Keith From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 23:53:17 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:53:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 on Pearl although I haven't read his book yet. Sam Harris has a good podcast with him I'd recommend. Sadly, he's also Daniel Pearl's dad. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 7:42 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:43 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I bought this book thinking that I could understand it more than it >> appears that I can. It is written by a man who has been in the field of AI >> for a long time, and now wants to create a math that does what statistics >> cannot do: answer why. >> >> The book is The Book of Why: The New Science of Cause and Effect. by >> Judea Pearl (winner of the 2011 Turing Award) >> >> Check it out on Amazon. I will consider requests and send it to someone >> who tells me it's in their field. >> >> > ### It's the best book I read last year! Pearl is a genius, he should be > much better known. I learned a lot from this book. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 23:59:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:59:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:12 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Since we've already gone down the path of destroying the US economy (which > I was against), I think we should probably keep the NYC metro region in the > status quo through the end of May > ### Some say we should keep NYC under lockdown longer, just to be sure. Maybe indefinitely. Snake Plissken would approve. > > There are still a lot of open questions around immunity and the > possibility of recurrence, but for me, this entire exercise has been a HUGE > overreaction. Sweden may be getting a lot of bad press recently with the > number of deaths, but their curves on active cases look the same as > everyone else's at far less economic cost. > ### The press is mostly left-wing, which usually means authoritarian and they followed that impulse when they wholeheartedly supported the recent mass house arrests. Now they experience powerful cognitive dissonance when they see reports that imply the justification for lockdowns, "flattening the curve", was very misguided. So they attack the country that didn't join in the stampede into mass incarceration and showed us a better way. Rafal Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 00:04:45 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:04:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: More evidence from Spike's neck of the woods that the real rate of spread is likely massively higher: The most important implication of these findings is that the number of infections is much greater than the reported number of cases. Our data imply that, by April 1 (three days prior to the end of our survey) between 48,000 and 81,000 people had been infected in Santa Clara County. The reported number of confirmed positive cases in the county on April 1 was 956, 50-85-fold lower than the number of infections predicted by this study.17 The infection to case ratio, also referred to as an under-ascertainment rate, of at least 50, is meaningfully higher than current estimates.10,18 This ascertainment rate is a fundamental parameter of many projection and epidemiologic models, and is used as a calibration target for understanding epidemic stage and calculating fatality rates.19,20 The under-ascertainment for COVID19 is likely a function of reliance on PCR for case identification which misses convalescent cases, early spread in the absence of systematic testing, and asymptomatic or lightly symptomatic infections that go undetected. https://tinyurl.com/ydgsj8av On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 1:52 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > Spike- > > Thanks for posting this, as I had not seen it yet, but for me, it is one > more plank for the hypothesis that I have been working with based strictly > on my own armchair analysis. We have seen prior evidence that a very large > portion of CV-19 positive carriers are completely asymptomatic (especially > younger, healthy ones). My working theory is that CV-19 got to the US > earlier than suspected by many, and has spread to way more people than many > suspect in areas like the NYC metro region. > > I think it is extremely contagious and aerolizes very easily despite what > we were originally told, and that if we had been encouraged to wear masks > early on (assuming one could find them) that the spread would have been > greatly slowed. My buddy who is a paramedic who did have very good proper > PPE and followed best practices still ended up with it. People on the > cruise ship also got it even in quarantine which points to it easily > getting onto food service items from those workers or through the > ventilation system. I also suspect the real CFR is pretty close to typical > influenza and that the German CFR is not an outlier due to the total > infected counts being WAY under counted. > > Based on SARs patterns alone (a very simple model), I suspect this will > have run its course in the US by early June (with some possible flare ups > in localized hot spots). I also find it highly likely that it will be > seasonal and die off over the summer despite some of the "experts" saying > otherwise. > > Since we've already gone down the path of destroying the US economy (which > I was against), I think we should probably keep the NYC metro region in the > status quo through the end of May and then start reopening it in stages as > proposed by the Feds. I think any states that don't have a big problem > with it should begin that phased reopening TODAY. I think high risk > groups should continue to avoid going out more than necessary and continue > more extreme measures until better treatment or a vaccine is developed. > > There are still a lot of open questions around immunity and the > possibility of recurrence, but for me, this entire exercise has been a HUGE > overreaction. Sweden may be getting a lot of bad press recently with the > number of deaths, but their curves on active cases look the same as > everyone else's at far less economic cost. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] shops opening >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >?I would point out donut shops ARE essential services for the boys/gals >> in blue! >> >> >> >> Well ja, there is that. Donut shops are perhaps the safest place to hang >> out in the whole city: always constables hanging around. >> >> >> >> Dylan et al, what is your take on this please? Does it seem plausible? >> If true, it is important: >> >> >> >> >> https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/coronavirus-clue-most-cases-aboard-stricken-us-aircraft-carrier-are-symptom-free >> >> >> >> ?The Navy's testing of the entire 4,800-member crew of the aircraft >> carrier - which is about 94 per cent complete - was an extraordinary move... >> >> ?Roughly 60 per cent of the over 600 sailors who tested positive so far >> have not shown symptoms of Covid-19, the potentially lethal respiratory >> disease caused by the coronavirus, the Navy says? >> >> We know that some people can carry HIV for decades and never develop >> AIDS. Others just spin right into the ground almost immediately. >> >> >> >> This carrier represents a big enough sample, carefully controlled (they >> have been quarantined together) where they know their medical histories, so >> this might be a really important dataset. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 00:09:14 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:09:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] new theory In-Reply-To: <000501d614f1$0d317ff0$27947fd0$@rainier66.com> References: <000501d614f1$0d317ff0$27947fd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 exposure > than we previously thought. My doctor contacted and wants me to come in > for testing when the quarantine is over. > > > > > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA > ### 50 - 85 times more previously undetected mild cases than known confirmed cases! That brings the CFR into the flu range. Trillions of dollars down the drain and civil liberties under siege, all for a bad flu. --------------- > > > I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know what > it was. I landed in the hospital. It was most unpleasant, but afterwards > I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid. I assumed it > was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of magnitude. > ### I am glad you made it! My Nebula Genomics reports show that I don't have most of the polymorphisms that are protective against severe SARS infection. I wonder if my minor cough a few weeks ago was the Wuflu or just my ACE inhibitor acting up. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 00:12:07 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:12:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Yesterday COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending > the quarantine right now is a good idea? > > ### Universal quarantine should have never started. Wearing masks and quarantine for male elderly obese diabetics should have been the end of the story. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 00:51:04 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:51:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: References: <002601d614ce$56056160$02102420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:18 PM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And deep learning is *incredibly* data hungry. I've worked in a start-up > trying to build self driving cars (I worked on navigation) and i had to > quit because of how frustrating it got - it really showed me how much data > deep learning demands to be good and how brittle it is. We're very far from > a AI. > ### This is an interesting question, in fact, it's a trillion-dollar question. Why does deep learning work so incredibly well in little walled gardens (chess, go, DotA) and yet it struggles in real-time real-world applications? Here is my guess - deep learning learns from scratch, optimizes for every new problem from the ground up. If the problem is circumscribed in terms of its complexity and yet data-rich, it can meander its way to a reasonably efficient solution quickly, especially if it can generate its own data, as in GANs. But when the problem has many layers of complexity, with different rules at each level, deep learning algorithms struggle at building the many-layered structures needed to address each level of complexity. Biological brains are pre-wired genetically to create the layers of processors needed to cope with tasks they evolved to solve. As the brain matures in contact with the real world, each of the pre-wired layers is then fleshed out, and thanks to the pre-wired scaffold the amount of data needed to optimize each layer is low. Observing a child who learns from just a few examples gives us the mistaken impression that the brain can utilize data to learn much more efficiently than deep learning networks but in fact we see the culmination of about 600 million years of evolution, learning on quadrillions (gazillions?) of data points to first create a pre-wired scaffold and then fill out the blanks with data from a few years of sensory input. This would mean that brains are not fundamentally better than deep learning in their ability to utilize data in general, however, they have the advantage of using solutions pre-computed by evolution in real-world applications. So to replicate the success of biological brains we don't need to invent anything radically different from deep learning but we do need to find the proper high-level layered scaffold specifically effective for real-world data and then graft deep learning onto that scaffold. There may be two ways of doing it. The Tesla way is to use gazillions of data points from millions of drivers to force the deep learning network to generate all the solutions for multi-layered analysis of the world, in a way recapitulating the evolution from the lowly worm all the way to near-human understanding. Since the original evolutionary process took 600 million years, this method might take longer than expected. The other way is to look at the pre-wired brain structure and try to transfer insights from there to pre-wire a deep learning network. Does it make sense? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 01:24:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:24:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Why farmers? was more deaths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 90% of farms in the US are corporate. About 5% single family farms. So I wonder what the people who are blessed with farming genes are doing nowadays? My grandfather inherited 10K acres of flat central Louisiana farm land, had two wives and eight children and I wound up with nothing. The cousin who lives there watches the farm being farmed. A corporation comes in, plants, comes back and poisons, comes back and harvests and hauls it off. He spends no time farming. This is not atypical. bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 6:56 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Will Steinberg wrote: > > > Why don't the coastal elites move to Kansas and become farmers? > > > Because it sucks. Those votes are the prize for being farm slaves for > the > entire country. Not worth it in my opinion, and most people I know agree. > > This can be understood from evolution. For the last 12,000 years or > so, most of our ancestors were farmers--mine were up to a couple of > generations ago. That's enough time for selection to have acted on > genes for whatever psychological traits are important for being a > successful farmer. > > There are a fair number of such psychological traits. I can't name > all of them, but I remember reading about some people who did not have > the genetic (and cultural) background for being a farmer. Even > *given* a working farm, it was beyond them. They could not grok that > cows have to be milked twice a day. > > The people who are farmers in the current world are the result of > 12,000 years of selection. They are highly self-motivated and *like* > farming. That's fortunate for us who live in cities and like that. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 01:54:09 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:54:09 +1000 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <003e01d61504$5ed3a730$1c7af590$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> <003e01d61504$5ed3a730$1c7af590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 at 08:07, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > In the USA, there are already millions of people running around with > guns?Those millions of people running around with guns are why the US > government hasn?t already seized more power than the Constitution allows. > > >?So you say, but is there any evidence of large numbers of Government > officials who dream of increasing their power but haven?t done so due to a > fear of citizens with guns? Some sort of survey, or even a series of > anecdotes? > > > > The office we really need to watch is POTUS. That one attracts > power-grabbers. The classic example is worrying a POTUS will refuse to > leave office if he loses re-election or terms out. The CONUS was set up to > deal with that: the Supreme Court is in charge of swearing in whoever they > judge won the election. Then the military takes orders from whoever is > sworn in. > > > > Stathis, the US system works extremely well. It has remained stable all > this time, even through a civil war, a crushing extended depression, a > disputed election in 2000, all these things, the system has demonstrated > itself to be robust. > > > > If you wish to argue that the shooting gallery which is Chicago and a few > other hot spots would be safer, a stabbing gallery instead if not for the > second amendment, eh, I consider that mess a reasonable price to pay for > keeping government in check. The obvious solution is to stay out of those > areas where people shoot each other. It is pretty easy to avoid them: > outsiders have no business in there. > The commander in chief, generals and soldiers are reluctant to give or obey an illegal order because they think it is the wrong thing to do and, failing that, they are afraid of the reactions of others in the chain of command. If fear of citizens with guns were a deterrent then the US would never have been able to invade well-armed states such as Iraq. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 05:21:17 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:21:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics In-Reply-To: <001d01d6135a$9b799830$d26cc890$@rainier66.com> References: <001d01d6135a$9b799830$d26cc890$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I tried to post this a couple of days ago, but there was an error. Retrying. >From the FAQ: Q: What does your model say about the simulation argument? A: The model implies that there is a definite computational rule that determines every aspect of what happens in our universe. If the universe is to be considered a ?simulation? this would suggest that the rule is being determined by something outside the system, and presumably in an ?intentional? way. It is difficult enough to extend the notion of intentionality far beyond the specifics of what humans do, making it unrealistic to attribute it to something beyond even the universe. In addition, the concept of rule-space relativity implies that in a sense all possible rules are equivalent, at least to an appropriate observer, and therefore there would be nothing for an entity setting up the simulation to ?intentionally decide??since any rule they could choose would appear to be the same universe to observers embedded within it. On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics > > > > > > > https://turingchurch.net/stephen-wolfram-proposes-new-framework-for-fundamental-physics-629833845470 > > > > >?He would seem to have rediscovered the concept of Planck scale. > > > > > > The thing to worry about is if he discovers this is all a digital simulation. If you really ponder Church-Turing, it doesn?t seem too far-fetched. But hey, perhaps it is a good thing. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 05:50:32 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 01:50:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> <003e01d61504$5ed3a730$1c7af590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:56 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > The commander in chief, generals and soldiers are reluctant to give or > obey an illegal order because they think it is the wrong thing to do and, > failing that, they are afraid of the reactions of others in the chain of > command. If fear of citizens with guns were a deterrent then the US would > never have been able to invade well-armed states such as Iraq. > ### Oh, the US invaded some countries with well-armed citizens, and time-and-again got their asses Kalashnikov-whipped in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and other places. And remember Geronimo? A few savages with guns, managed to terrorize huge swathes of land and were only captured once they got more or less bored with living on the run. Guns work. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 05:59:35 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 01:59:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:08 AM John Clark wrote: > So for example it would be constitutional to make individual ownership of > anything more advanced than a revolver or a bolt action rifle illegal, as > those things would still be more advanced than the original intent of the > framers of the Constitution, when they wrote that document they were > thinking about single shot flintlock pistols and muzzle loading muskets. > ### No, John, the Framers were not stupid. They thought about weapons dangerous enough to deter a rogue government but not dangerous enough to allow minor criminals to destroy the society. The precise type of weapon that meets above criteria changes in time and space but the idea of the Equalizer is persistent. When Leonidas said "Molon labe!" he meant a sharp stick and a long knife. When we say "Molon labe!" we mean AR-15. When the Moon Confederacy defies the Terran Hegemony, they will talk about gigawatt lasers and grey goo. Molon labe, John. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 06:03:41 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 02:03:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Yep, it's stupid white supremacist rednecks with shotguns. > > ### When did you get so racist, John? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 06:06:43 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 02:06:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:57 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Elected in an election with only 538 voters. I was not one of them and as > far as I know neither was any member of this list. > > ### I mildly regret not voting. Not that I would think my vote would matter in the greater scheme of things, it just would be nice to be able to tell them "MAGA! In ur face, biches!" Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 06:20:19 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 02:20:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: <7A6654F7-8CBF-40AC-92B6-CF622B2D8A2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Their [burglars] perceived choices: > * Burgle but don't destroy, get caught, and die. > ### Yes, that's how it goes down in Smigtown. ----------------------- > * Don't burgle, starve, and die. (This is almost always a false > perception - there are many other ways to not starve - but it is what they > believe.) > ### Nah, it's mostly about getting money for drugs, not food. In Smigtown all drugs you can imagine can be had at free market prices. So don't burgle, mow a lawn, peace out. -------------------- > * Burgle and be as destructive as possible, leaving no witnesses > mechanical or living, and don't die. > ### Now, that's technically difficult in Smigtown, with all those private, corporate, municipal, state, federal and international cameras pointing every which way. ----------------- > > You have that option today, if you are bloody minded enough. Just make > sure to kill them all, and that all surviving witnesses will agree there > was the perception of a threat that merited deadly force in response. > Should the burglar escape wounded - or should some burglars escape while > others in the same burglary die - then the escapees may sue. > > ### A problem-solving option that is too costly, difficult and dangerous is not really an option, even if theoretically possible. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 07:06:37 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:06:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Tooth and Claw (was ccp struggles) In-Reply-To: References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> <2052992412.526205.1586934644286@mail.yahoo.com> <1755590871.1364629.1587109971743@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1451580422.1731368.1587193597939@mail.yahoo.com> On Friday, April 17, 2020, 06:03:19 AM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: >> The founding principle of America is that the people ARE the government. Whereas other countries have rulers, we Americans have representatives.?In other words, we consent to be governed by our equals (i.e. morally equivalent peers) for the sake of schools and highways and the common good. But an armed person and an unarmed person are not equal, they cannot be, for one can coerce the other. >> >> Another way to think about it is this. Max Weber defined a state as an entity that maintained a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within its borders. In most countries when there arises a group of people like an armed gang, cartel, militia, or terrorist organization, then that monopoly on violence is broken and the existence of the state is questioned. Here in the United States of America however, since we have a "government of the people, by the people, for the people", we prevent this from happening by allowing almost everyone to have access to weapons and be part of the militia. An all-inclusive monopoly on the legitimate use of force can never be broken. The use of force for self-defense is legitimatized by natural law.. At least that was the intent of the Founders as near as I can tell. >>? >> In America, if you can't govern an armed populace, then you are not fit to govern. > I can see that you believe this, but it is not an idea that people elsewhere in the world have, even if they support gun rights. It is like a religious idea, which has the characteristic that it seems crazy to anyone not already in the religion. Do you mean crazy in a clinical sense, Dr. Papaoinnnou? More or less crazy than your Spartan ancestors? Could you be more specific? :-) Stuart LaForge From giulio at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 07:55:23 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:55:23 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d6135a$9b799830$d26cc890$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: More thoughts: Wolfram?s digital physics is fully deterministic, which seems to exclude free will. But there is computational irreducibility... https://turingchurch.net/computational-irreducibility-in-wolframs-digital-physics-and-free-will-e413e496eb0a On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 7:21 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > I tried to post this a couple of days ago, but there was an error. Retrying. > > From the FAQ: > > Q: What does your model say about the simulation argument? > > A: The model implies that there is a definite computational rule that > determines every aspect of what happens in our universe. If the > universe is to be considered a ?simulation? this would suggest that > the rule is being determined by something outside the system, and > presumably in an ?intentional? way. It is difficult enough to extend > the notion of intentionality far beyond the specifics of what humans > do, making it unrealistic to attribute it to something beyond even the > universe. In addition, the concept of rule-space relativity implies > that in a sense all possible rules are equivalent, at least to an > appropriate observer, and therefore there would be nothing for an > entity setting up the simulation to ?intentionally decide??since any > rule they could choose would appear to be the same universe to > observers embedded within it. > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://turingchurch.net/stephen-wolfram-proposes-new-framework-for-fundamental-physics-629833845470 > > > > > > > > >?He would seem to have rediscovered the concept of Planck scale. > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing to worry about is if he discovers this is all a digital simulation. If you really ponder Church-Turing, it doesn?t seem too far-fetched. But hey, perhaps it is a good thing. > > > > > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Apr 18 09:00:26 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:00:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d91a0ac-15e2-de1b-166a-02036f0cca87@zaiboc.net> On 18/04/2020 01:51, Rafal wrote: > There may be two ways of doing it. The Tesla way is to use gazillions > of data points from millions of drivers to force the deep learning > network to generate all the solutions for multi-layered analysis of > the world, in a way recapitulating the evolution from the lowly worm > all the way to near-human understanding. Since the original > evolutionary process took 600 million years, this method might take > longer than expected. The other way is to look at the pre-wired brain > structure and try to transfer insights from there to pre-wire a deep > learning network. > > Does it make sense? Makes a great deal of sense to me, but it's not the people on this list that need convincing, and I'm the wrong Ben. I had an exchange years ago with a more relevant Ben (Goertzel) about the relevance of modelling existing brains to AI research, but he wasn't a fan, and thought a more direct computational approach was the way to go, bypassing biological brains altogether. Maybe he, or other AI researchers can be persuaded otherwise now. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 09:04:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:04:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:29 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Universal quarantine should have never started* Any particular reason why? We know from centuries of experience with diseases that quarantines work. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Sat Apr 18 11:16:35 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:46:35 +0530 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: References: <002601d614ce$56056160$02102420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The convergence of GANs is still not proved, correct? >As the brain matures in contact with the real world, each of the pre-wired layers is then fleshed out, and thanks to the pre-wired scaffold the amount of data needed to optimize each layer is low. We don't yet know distributed information is coded in brains, but we do know that the cortex is not so specialized as to be able to represent only one modality in one region. For example, consider experiments of re-wiring to enable seeing with tongue, etc. So, is it pre-wired, really? >Observing a child who learns from just a few examples gives us the mistaken impression that the brain can utilize data to learn much more efficiently than deep learning networks but in fact we see the culmination of about 600 million years of evolution, learning on quadrillions (gazillions?) of data points to first create a pre-wired scaffold and then fill out the blanks with data from a few years of sensory input. How could the brain obtain relevant information from ONE example in a CHANGING environment and transform that signal to some representation that can be stored and retrieved later? I think that we form invariants in our brains. For example, I can tilt my head and look at my laptop from a different angle, obtaining a totally different image, yet I instantly recognize it as my laptop. >The other way is to look at the pre-wired brain structure and try to transfer insights from there to pre-wire a deep learning network. What do you mean pre-wired? Our brains are constantly changing, in fact, every bye of information you process causes a physical change in the brain structure. &Kunvar On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 6:23 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:18 PM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> And deep learning is *incredibly* data hungry. I've worked in a start-up >> trying to build self driving cars (I worked on navigation) and i had to >> quit because of how frustrating it got - it really showed me how much data >> deep learning demands to be good and how brittle it is. We're very far from >> a AI. >> > > ### This is an interesting question, in fact, it's a trillion-dollar > question. Why does deep learning work so incredibly well in little walled > gardens (chess, go, DotA) and yet it struggles in real-time real-world > applications? > > Here is my guess - deep learning learns from scratch, optimizes for every > new problem from the ground up. If the problem is circumscribed in terms of > its complexity and yet data-rich, it can meander its way to a > reasonably efficient solution quickly, especially if it can generate its > own data, as in GANs. But when the problem has many layers of complexity, > with different rules at each level, deep learning algorithms struggle at > building the many-layered structures needed to address each level of > complexity. > > Biological brains are pre-wired genetically to create the layers of > processors needed to cope with tasks they evolved to solve. As the brain > matures in contact with the real world, each of the pre-wired layers is > then fleshed out, and thanks to the pre-wired scaffold the amount of data > needed to optimize each layer is low. Observing a child who learns from > just a few examples gives us the mistaken impression that the brain can > utilize data to learn much more efficiently than deep learning networks but > in fact we see the culmination of about 600 million years of evolution, > learning on quadrillions (gazillions?) of data points to first create a > pre-wired scaffold and then fill out the blanks with data from a few years > of sensory input. > > This would mean that brains are not fundamentally better than deep > learning in their ability to utilize data in general, however, they have > the advantage of using solutions pre-computed by evolution in real-world > applications. So to replicate the success of biological brains we don't > need to invent anything radically different from deep learning but we do > need to find the proper high-level layered scaffold specifically effective > for real-world data and then graft deep learning onto that scaffold. > > There may be two ways of doing it. The Tesla way is to use gazillions of > data points from millions of drivers to force the deep learning network to > generate all the solutions for multi-layered analysis of the world, in a > way recapitulating the evolution from the lowly worm all the way to > near-human understanding. Since the original evolutionary process took 600 > million years, this method might take longer than expected. The other way > is to look at the pre-wired brain structure and try to transfer insights > from there to pre-wire a deep learning network. > > Does it make sense? > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 13:20:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:20:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prisons In-Reply-To: References: <7A6654F7-8CBF-40AC-92B6-CF622B2D8A2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Should the burglar escape wounded - or should some burglars escape while others in the same burglary die - then the escapees may sue. I have seen cases where a burglar was shot in the back running away from the house and the homeowner got off. I have also seen police officers get off after shooting a guy in the back. Juries think that criminals deserve to be punished. That's the way it is here in the Deep South. bill w On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 1:22 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Their [burglars] perceived choices: >> * Burgle but don't destroy, get caught, and die. >> > > ### Yes, that's how it goes down in Smigtown. > > ----------------------- > > >> * Don't burgle, starve, and die. (This is almost always a false >> perception - there are many other ways to not starve - but it is what they >> believe.) >> > > ### Nah, it's mostly about getting money for drugs, not food. In > Smigtown all drugs you can imagine can be had at free market prices. So > don't burgle, mow a lawn, peace out. > > -------------------- > > >> * Burgle and be as destructive as possible, leaving no witnesses >> mechanical or living, and don't die. >> > > ### Now, that's technically difficult in Smigtown, with all those private, > corporate, municipal, state, federal and international cameras pointing > every which way. > ----------------- > >> >> You have that option today, if you are bloody minded enough. Just make >> sure to kill them all, and that all surviving witnesses will agree there >> was the perception of a threat that merited deadly force in response. >> Should the burglar escape wounded - or should some burglars escape while >> others in the same burglary die - then the escapees may sue. >> >> ### A problem-solving option that is too costly, difficult and dangerous > is not really an option, even if theoretically possible. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sat Apr 18 13:49:17 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:49:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Why farmers? Message-ID: Keith Henson wrote: > Will Steinberg wrote: > > Why don't the coastal elites move to Kansas and become farmers? > Because it sucks. Those votes are the prize for being farm slaves > for the entire country. Not worth it in my opinion, and most people > I know agree. A family farm is a wonderful life for those willing to work hard, but economies of scale are killing small farms. As Earl Butz, Nixon's Sec'y of Ag, said to farmers, "Get big or get out." Wife (MD horse owner) and self (PhD Comp Sci) are becoming more typical of modern farm owners. We lease most of our land to real farmers, who could never be confused with coastal elites. No doubt some coastal elites own stock in the agribusinesses that are the new reality of farming. Part of our house was built in the 19th century and an old outhouse still stands, it's pit filled in. Imagine using it on an old fashioned -30F Wisconsin winter night. By the way, Butz was forced to resign after saying that "coloreds" only wanted three things: tight pussy, loose shoes and a warm place to shit. Won't find the latter on a 19th century WI farm. From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 13:57:20 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:57:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have to agree. If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the pandemic news will make the same comparison for me. I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. SR Ballard > On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w > >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as if today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It took the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number of cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots of theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is lifted too soon. >> >> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about 1,770 deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the quarantine right now is a good idea? >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 14:00:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:00:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:57 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I'll answer you, yes, I would. * > So if you were devising a system from scratch and were looking at a map of the country but knew nothing about the states or how liberal or conservative they were you'd say "to make a better government for no particular reason lets pick a few states at random and give the voters in them 66.7 times as much power to determine their fate as voters in other states". * > I believe states that have less population than others should still > have some influence on an election that avoids completely disregarding the > will of that state compared to others.* > I too believe that states with smaller populations should have *some* influence on an election, and I'll tell you exactly how much, if it has 1/60 the population it should have 1/60 the influence. What I don't understand is why land should determine how much weight a vote should have rather than some other form of wealth. If wealth really should be a consideration would you be OK with determining a voter's power based on how much stock in Fortune 500 companies the residents of his state have in addition to how much land they have? >* I'll remind you that the Federal government does not have absolute > authority over the states* > In the past when state law and Federal law came into conflict the Supreme Court almost always decided in favor of Federal law, but of course now with the 5 Vichy Justices they will favor neither, they will favor Trump. *> Do you also think that states with greater populations should have the > same number of US representatives as every other state? * > No, of course all states should not have the same number of representatives, and all states should not have the same number of Senators either. > *I live in CT. If I don't vote D, my vote is thrown away since this > state inexplicably runs blue * > That's another completely different flaw that makes the Electoral College even worse. In nearly every state if candidate X gets 50.001% of the popular vote and candidate Y gets 49.999% then X gets 100% of the Electoral votes and Y gets 0%. That's just nuts. We wouldn't have had the multi Trillion dollar Iraq war if 269 people out of 6 million voters in Florida in 2000 had voted differently, or if the 25 members of Florida's Electoral College had not voted as a block and just 5 of them had voted differently. * > I don't like this, but never once have I thought I would shift to a > popular vote model if given a choice. * > Have you never once wondered how every other democratic nation on this planet manages to get along just fine without anything even close to our crazy system? *> As Spike mentioned, it's one of the biggest strengths of our system of > government. It's a n=50 lab for experimenting with policy.* > In the scientific method you don't give the evidence obtained in one lab 66.7 times more weight than evidence found in another lab without very good reason. I've been waiting to hear that very good reason since I was in the fifth grade and first heard about this crazy thing, and I'm still waiting. > I think popular vote would be disastrous for the long term cohesion of > this country. As it is, we're hanging by a thread. > If staying with our lunatic system is the price we must pay to appease Wyoming I say cut them loose and let them hang with central African countries and become "The People's Democratic Republic of Wyoming". I'd take that drastic step because leadership that doesn't reflect the will of the people is a recipe for instability. In 2012 1.5 million more people voted for Democratic House candidates than Republican candidates, but due to gerrymandering the Republicans won the third largest House majority in a century. And the House is supposed to be the most democratic part of the entire system! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 14:09:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:09:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >*I have to agree. * > *If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the pandemic > news will make the same comparison for me.* > If my words were worthless then why did both you and Bill take the time out of your busy lives to *REPEAT EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE?!* John K Clark I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. > > SR Ballard > > On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I missed? > Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you can't, can > you? You just cannot control it. bill w > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as if >> today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It took >> the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number of >> cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots of >> theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only >> thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is >> lifted too soon. >> >> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the USA >> killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about 1,770 >> deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday >> COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the >> quarantine right now is a good idea? >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 18 14:26:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:26:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c701d6158d$56057aa0$02106fe0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea >?I have to agree. >?If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the pandemic news will make the same comparison for me. >?I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. SR Ballard On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >>John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w Ja. What we need are not total counts by country; that is not actionable data. But comparisons between Sweden (with the much more open-minded approach) to their neighbors is very valuable data. We already know that the virus cannot be stopped by national borders. Everyone everywhere travels. Even North Korea and the remote tribes are getting it. If I had C-19 in December I already know where I might have caught it: one of the scout parents is a stewardess who routinely travels to China (used to.) We were doing Boards of Review in December. If it turns out that 60% of the cases have few or now symptoms, that theory is plausible. A more useful data point would be the ratio of new cases each day to the number of existing cases sorted by country. The US should be broken down by state. Reason: in the US, regardless of the opinion of the federal government, the states make the call on what gets shut down and what can stay open. That system allows data comparison, invites it. It is one of the many reasons why state governments are so valuable and why the US system works so well: it protects minority rights, such as those sparse and sturdy inhabitants of Wyoming, who have been practicing social distancing since at least 1979 which was the last time I drove thru there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 14:29:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:29:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Why farmers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:52 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > A family farm is a wonderful life for those willing to work hard,* Yeah but working hard, especially on a farm, is not a wonderful life. At least not for me. *> As Earl Butz, Nixon's Sec'y of Ag, said to farmers, "Get big or get > out."* Earl Butz also said "*Food is a tool. It is a weapon in the U.S. negotiating kit*" and my favorite "*No, I try not to be a negative thinker*". I couldn't fail to disagree with him less. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 14:51:24 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:51:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: <00c701d6158d$56057aa0$02106fe0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c701d6158d$56057aa0$02106fe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:29 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *comparisons between Sweden (with the much more open-minded approach) to > their neighbors is very valuable data.* For some reason Sweden took the quarantine much less seriously than other scandinavian countries, and they're now paying the price. In Sweden 1,333 people have so far died of COVID-19, in Denmark only 321 died, in Norway 152, and in Finland just 75. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat Apr 18 14:51:32 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:51:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <430dd5d80c31266c4a19a88ae41f27eb@ultimax.com> 37K, per Johns Hopkins -- we're past Korea now. "Next stop: Vietnam!" (per Country Joe McDonald live @ Woodstock) That is, at the current rate of accumulation of fatalities (~5K/day), we should hit that sad milestone, 58K, by early-middle next week. Next to come would be total American military deaths in WWI (combat + disease), 118K, which is just about double the butcher's bill for Vietnam. Again, at current rates of dying, we should expect to see that milestone hit by the 1st of May. Whether or not we do hit that will indicate whether those projections we're hearing from the White House ("plateau at 60K") are worth anything or not. Absent continued intervention, positive-feedback processes tend to run to completion, so it's difficult for me to believe that this one we're in is going to come to a sudden screeching halt in just a week. Wait and see, or, wait and not see... K3 PS. This listserver's subject line management needs tightening up. This discourse in this thread hasn't been about the ostensible subject line for a long time now, hundreds of posts. PPS. I've been studying pandemics and history for a long time. See: http://www.ultimax.com/whitepapers/deadmediarev.html . For decades, I've been citing Hans Zinsser's /Rats Lice and History/ (1935 & 1960), William McNeill's /Plagues and Peoples/ (1976) (he was required reading in National Security Studies), and Jared Diamond's /Guns Germs and Steel/ (1997). You should read them too if you want to understand what really shapes human history. Just started a book recommended by a hacker friend: /The Fate of Rome/ by Kyle Harper, 2017, Princeton University Press. Good interview here on Utah public radio: "Plagues And The Fate Of Rome" https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/plagues-and-fate-rome . On 2020-04-18 09:20, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:04:37 -0400 > From: John Clark > To: rafal at smigrodzki.org, ExI chat list > > Subject: Re: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle > in Korea > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:29 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Universal quarantine should have never started* > > Any particular reason why? We know from centuries of experience with > diseases that quarantines work. From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 18 15:05:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:05:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> < CAJPayv0=VkVKJdY83OjTTB836gGHK_u4+-9jbd08jex6UwWX2A@mail.gmail.com> <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ee01d61592$cdadb450$69091cf0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?So if you were devising a system from scratch and were looking at a map of the country but knew nothing about the states? If you were devising a system from scratch you would have a map of the states but would know nothing about the country. It wasn?t yet a country in the 1780s. But there were governments for the colonies. The United States was formed by unifying 13 countries, which is why this sentence starts with ?The United Sates was?? rather than ?The United States were?? Unifying 13 independent countries into one powerful union made the transition from our saying ?the US are? to the ?the US is.? It can be undone however. All you need is a constitutional convention to abolish the electoral college. You need to get 38 of the states to buy in, most of which would be giving up power. So do it. Go for it. I will even take one of your bumper stickers. Then I will put it in my filing cabinet along with my Johnson/Weld sticker I never put on my truck. Since we are talking about data, and Wyoming keeps coming up, notice if you go by total counts, Wyoming is doing the best job of any state. California and New York were the first to turn dark red. If that is a useful data, then Wyoming, Montana and North Dakota are the government models we should be following, ja? I read disparaging comments here about Arkansas, but they are doing well, far better in total cases than California and New York. Perhaps that anonymous politician from Arkansas who wrote the legal definition the militia isn?t stupid, but rather knows what she is doing. Whatever California and New York are doing is clearly failing. Wyoming Montana and North Dakota are succeeding. See the value of states? I love state governments and the whole notion of uniting states in common defense, in establishing justice, ensuring domestic tranquility, promoting the general welfare and securing to ourselves and our posterity the blessings of liberty. State governments are our friends. States show us the way. Unite them, support them, salute them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18154 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 15:13:35 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:13:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: <00ee01d61592$cdadb450$69091cf0$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <006001d614c8$77f02590$67d070b0$@rainier66.com> <007801d614d9$ee071a70$ca154f50$@rainier66.com> <00ee01d61592$cdadb450$69091cf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That map kinda sucks though. It should really be per capita. On Sat, Apr 18, 2020, 11:06 spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > >?So if you were devising a system from scratch and were looking at a map > of the country but knew nothing about the states? > > > > If you were devising a system from scratch you would have a map of the > states but would know nothing about the country. It wasn?t yet a country > in the 1780s. But there were governments for the colonies. The United > States was formed by unifying 13 countries, which is why this sentence > starts with ?The United Sates was?? rather than ?The United States were?? > Unifying 13 independent countries into one powerful union made the > transition from our saying ?the US are? to the ?the US is.? > > > > It can be undone however. All you need is a constitutional convention to > abolish the electoral college. You need to get 38 of the states to buy in, > most of which would be giving up power. So do it. Go for it. I will even > take one of your bumper stickers. Then I will put it in my filing cabinet > along with my Johnson/Weld sticker I never put on my truck. > > > > Since we are talking about data, and Wyoming keeps coming up, notice if > you go by total counts, Wyoming is doing the best job of any state. > California and New York were the first to turn dark red. If that is a > useful data, then Wyoming, Montana and North Dakota are the government > models we should be following, ja? > > > > I read disparaging comments here about Arkansas, but they are doing well, > far better in total cases than California and New York. Perhaps that > anonymous politician from Arkansas who wrote the legal definition the > militia isn?t stupid, but rather knows what she is doing. > > > > > > Whatever California and New York are doing is clearly failing. Wyoming > Montana and North Dakota are succeeding. > > > > See the value of states? I love state governments and the whole notion of > uniting states in common defense, in establishing justice, ensuring > domestic tranquility, promoting the general welfare and securing to > ourselves and our posterity the blessings of liberty. State governments > are our friends. States show us the way. Unite them, support them, salute > them. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18154 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18154 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 15:21:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:21:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: <430dd5d80c31266c4a19a88ae41f27eb@ultimax.com> References: <430dd5d80c31266c4a19a88ae41f27eb@ultimax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 11:00 AM Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat wrote: > > > *> 37K, per Johns Hopkins -- we're past Korea now."Next stop: Vietnam!" > (per Country Joe McDonald live @ Woodstock)That is, at the current rate of > accumulation of fatalities (~5K/day), we should hit that sad milestone, > 58K, by early-middle next week.* > The good news is in the US the acceleration of the death rate has slowed, it now takes 8 days for the total number of deaths to double. But I keep thinking of the 1918 flu, it's called the "Spanish Flu" but the first recorded case was in the USA, in Kansas, in March. It killed thousands of people but in the summer things got a lot better and most people thought the worst was over, but then it came roaring back far stronger than before and the vast majority of deaths occurred in the second wave in September October and November. If that happens again how are we going to run the November 3 presidential election? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 17:42:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:42:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Free book. Free shipping. Rave review by Rafal. Why is no one wanting this book? bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:03 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > +1 on Pearl although I haven't read his book yet. Sam Harris has a good > podcast with him I'd recommend. > > Sadly, he's also Daniel Pearl's dad. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 7:42 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:43 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I bought this book thinking that I could understand it more than it >>> appears that I can. It is written by a man who has been in the field of AI >>> for a long time, and now wants to create a math that does what statistics >>> cannot do: answer why. >>> >>> The book is The Book of Why: The New Science of Cause and Effect. by >>> Judea Pearl (winner of the 2011 Turing Award) >>> >>> Check it out on Amazon. I will consider requests and send it to >>> someone who tells me it's in their field. >>> >>> >> ### It's the best book I read last year! Pearl is a genius, he should be >> much better known. I learned a lot from this book. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 17:58:37 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:58:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Fwd: why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1583866099.1826825.1587232717451@mail.yahoo.com> I think it was because you restricted your offer to people "in the field". While I dabble in AI, I am nowhere near expert enough to claim to be in the field of AI. That being said, if you want to send me the book, I would certainly appreciate it. I can email you my shipping address offlist, if you want. Stuart LaForge On Saturday, April 18, 2020, 10:43:44 AM PDT, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: Free book.? Free shipping.? Rave review by Rafal. Why is no one wanting this book? bill w On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:03 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > +1 on Pearl although I haven't read his book yet.? Sam Harris has a good podcast with him I'd recommend.?? > > Sadly, he's also Daniel Pearl's dad.?? > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 7:42 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:43 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> I bought this book thinking that I could understand it more than it appears that I can.? It is written by a man who has been in the field of AI for a long time, and now wants to create a math that does what statistics cannot do:? answer why. >>> >>> The book is The Book of Why:? The New Science of Cause and Effect.? by Judea Pearl (winner of the 2011 Turing Award) >>> >>> Check it out on Amazon.??I will consider requests and send it to someone who tells me it's in their field. >>> >> >> ### It's the best book I read last year! Pearl is a genius, he should be much better known. I learned a lot from this book. >> >> Rafal? >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 18:09:37 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:09:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Message-ID: <2d91a0ac-15e2-de1b-166a-02036f0cca87 at zaiboc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 18/04/2020 01:51, Rafal wrote: >> There may be two ways of doing it. The Tesla way is to use gazillions >> of data points from millions of drivers to force the deep learning >> network to generate all the solutions for multi-layered analysis of >> the world, in a way recapitulating the evolution from the lowly worm >> all the way to near-human understanding. Since the original >> evolutionary process took 600 million years, this method might take >> longer than expected. The other way is to look at the pre-wired brain >> structure and try to transfer insights from there to pre-wire a deep >> learning network. > >> Does it make sense? > Makes a great deal of sense to me, but it's not the people on this list that need convincing, and I'm the wrong Ben. I had an exchange years ago with a more relevant Ben (Goertzel) about the relevance of modelling existing brains to AI research, but he wasn't a fan, and thought a more direct computational approach was the way to go, bypassing biological brains altogether. My work in evolutionary psychology makes me think that building AI based on human brains is an intolerably dangerous approach. Humans have rarely invoked psychological traits such as capture-bonding and those related to going to war and the perhaps related trait of being infested with religions. A human-based AI that understood a looming resource crisis could go to war with humans. > Maybe he, or other AI researchers can be persuaded otherwise now. I hope not. Keith From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 19:37:26 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:37:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just information for atheist trans humanists who can't organize, The membership of the Mormon Transumanists Association continues to grow exponentially. I believe they are now approaching 1000 members, and they are now actively involved in their bi annual elections. You should definitely keep them in the loop for any transhumanist activities, if you want to expand participation. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 5:49 PM Jose Cordeiro via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dear Spike and ExI friends, > > How are you doing? I am not a regular writer here, but I do try to > read most messages since there are excellent contributions, and some people > here that I admire and follow from many years! > > How many participants are there in the list now? I imagine most are > like me, who do not participate actively? > > By the way, I am planning to organize the next TransVision conference > in Madrid, during October 16-18, or later depending on the pandemic, and I > would like to invite you all to come. It will be safe, fun, educational, > and immortal, so kindly share with others too, and let me know if you can > participate, please: https://www.transvisionmadrid.com/ > > Finally, let me share with you my interview/article/profile in the > latest issue of the Alcor Cryonics magazine, I hope that you have a few > minutes to take a look and comment: Cryonics Magazine 2019 > > > Cryonics Magazine 2019 > > > > Best of luck, keep safe, wash your hands, and welcome to Spain after > the pandemic... > > Futuristically yours, > > La vie est belle! > > Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD (www.cordeiro.org) > > > On Friday, April 17, 2020, 09:48:44 PM GMT+2, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > > With the recent surge in chatter here, and since there aren?t that many of > us left, I propose relaxing guidelines on number of posts per day. We > instituted that back in the 90s when there were a coupla hundred regular > posters. Now it is down to the usual suspects, about a dozen. I propose > we all just post away. > > > > Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 exposure > than we previously thought. My doctor contacted and wants me to come in > for testing when the quarantine is over. > > > > > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA > > > > I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know what > it was. I landed in the hospital. It was most unpleasant, but afterwards > I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid. I assumed it > was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of magnitude. > > > > We have a lot of regular travelers to and from China in the area. In > retrospect, it is very possible that I had Covid-19. It took me four weeks > to feel better, and about seven weeks before I really felt completely back > to normal. If so, it would agree with what Stanford U found. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 20:09:39 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:09:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wish I had known about that during my years as a hardcore Mormon. And what do you mean by ?biannual elections?? Church conferences? That?s not real voting. SR Ballard > On Apr 18, 2020, at 2:37 PM, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Just information for atheist trans humanists who can't organize, The membership of the Mormon Transumanists Association continues to grow exponentially. I believe they are now approaching 1000 members, and they are now actively involved in their bi annual elections. > > You should definitely keep them in the loop for any transhumanist activities, if you want to expand participation. > > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 5:49 PM Jose Cordeiro via extropy-chat wrote: >> Dear Spike and ExI friends, >> >> How are you doing? I am not a regular writer here, but I do try to read most messages since there are excellent contributions, and some people here that I admire and follow from many years! >> >> How many participants are there in the list now? I imagine most are like me, who do not participate actively? >> >> By the way, I am planning to organize the next TransVision conference in Madrid, during October 16-18, or later depending on the pandemic, and I would like to invite you all to come. It will be safe, fun, educational, and immortal, so kindly share with others too, and let me know if you can participate, please: https://www.transvisionmadrid.com/ >> >> Finally, let me share with you my interview/article/profile in the latest issue of the Alcor Cryonics magazine, I hope that you have a few minutes to take a look and comment: Cryonics Magazine 2019 >> >> Cryonics Magazine 2019 >> >> Best of luck, keep safe, wash your hands, and welcome to Spain after the pandemic... >> >> Futuristically yours, >> >> La vie est belle! >> >> Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD (www.cordeiro.org) >> >> >> On Friday, April 17, 2020, 09:48:44 PM GMT+2, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> With the recent surge in chatter here, and since there aren?t that many of us left, I propose relaxing guidelines on number of posts per day. We instituted that back in the 90s when there were a coupla hundred regular posters. Now it is down to the usual suspects, about a dozen. I propose we all just post away. >> >> >> >> Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 exposure than we previously thought. My doctor contacted and wants me to come in for testing when the quarantine is over. >> >> >> >> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA >> >> >> >> I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know what it was. I landed in the hospital. It was most unpleasant, but afterwards I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid. I assumed it was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of magnitude. >> >> >> >> We have a lot of regular travelers to and from China in the area. In retrospect, it is very possible that I had Covid-19. It took me four weeks to feel better, and about seven weeks before I really felt completely back to normal. If so, it would agree with what Stanford U found. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 18 20:17:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:17:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> From: Brent Allsop Subject: Re: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? Just information for atheist trans humanists who can't organize, The membership of the Mormon Transumanists Association continues to grow exponentially. I believe they are now approaching 1000 members, and they are now actively involved in their bi annual elections. You should definitely keep them in the loop for any transhumanist activities, if you want to expand participation. Brent?s comments should be considered carefully in the context of our focus here. Plenty of us are atheists here, but he is right: atheism doesn?t do for people what the mainstream religions do so well: provide a social context upon which people organize and work together. Even if a religion is based on dubious or known-false infrastructure, they do meet the emotional needs of people. This works, even if the believer doesn?t actually believe the theory. I know LDS people who will openly admit they don?t accept the basic theory at all: they are Latter Day Atheists. But they keep it to themselves, and recognize the benefits of going along. Note that Stephen Jay Gould sang in the church choir and Niels Bohr kept a horseshoe over his door for good luck. When asked if he believed it would do so, he answered of course not, it was a silly superstition. But he was told it brings good luck even if one does not believe in it. Note that I am not making any commentary or inquiry on Brent?s religious views, (and encourage others to not ask (for that is poor form)) but I do recognize that religion in general, and LDS specifically is a religion that has its socially-redeeming qualities, such as promotion of family life (note that I am definitely not promoting over-breeding (keep it to two or less.)) I will unapologetically observe that Brent Alsop is a most pleasant person with which to hang. Seventh Day Adventism is a religion I embraced up until about age 20, when I discovered Darwin. I realized Darwin was right. Therefore? my religion was wrong, dead wrong, pi radians wrong. However? it too has its culturally and socially redeeming qualities. For instance: a strict, very strict rule in that ideology is noooo druuuuugs, no dope of any kind, no alcohol, no tobacco, none of that junk. Well, OK then. When I realized SDA was pi wrong, I examined carefully which concepts were redeemable, and decided that one definitely is. I hold to this day: lives are generally better without that stuff. I am a Seventh Day Atheist. But I am a quiet one, and I recognize there are social benefits to going along. (Inquiry or commentary on that last part is welcome.) I don?t try to promote my atheism, even though I know there are others. They do not try to draw it out of me, and I do not volunteer it. Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person perishes, they are on hold, no conscious existence in any form. They exist as stored data until they are re-assembled at a later time. This notion turns out to be perfectly compatible with cryonics. The SDA people I talk to are very open-minded to the idea of cryonics, generally more so than other religions. The SDA people recognize that a cryonaut is not going to be re-created in the flesh, but rather are candidates for a future software existence, such as Startrek Next Generation holodeck. The SDA people can see definite advantages to that: their holodeck avatar can teach their great^5 grandchildren about their religion. Shrugs, OK then. Whatever works for you. LDS: the theory has humans becoming gods. I don?t claim to be an authority on LDS, but that looks to me to be very compatible with the notion of transhumanism. Imagine? we find that most transhumanists come from an LDS background and most cryonicists come from SDA. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat Apr 18 22:02:08 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:02:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Why farmers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1879c5a092e33bf977529d4b8a0e7e72@ultimax.com> That's funny, I thought Earl Butz was forced to resign when he said in a media interview after the Pope (of Italian descent like most of them) had made some statement about contraception (this would be in the era of the Roe v. Wade decision): "hey, you no-playa the game, you no make-a the rules". Jeez, we could use that kind of hi/lo state comedy today. Oh, wait a minute... K3 On 2020-04-18 11:05, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:49:17 -0500 (CDT) > From: Bill Hibbard > To: ExI chat list > Cc: hibbard at wisc.edu > Subject: Re: [ExI] Why farmers? > By the way, Butz was forced to resign after saying that . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [snippissimo] From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 18 22:23:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:23:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Why farmers? In-Reply-To: <1879c5a092e33bf977529d4b8a0e7e72@ultimax.com> References: <1879c5a092e33bf977529d4b8a0e7e72@ultimax.com> Message-ID: <01e201d615cf$f4c65320$de52f960$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Why farmers? >...Jeez, we could use that kind of hi/lo state comedy today. >...Oh, wait a minute... >...K3 >...[snippissimo] Ja. In our world today, it helps if one has the right sensa huma. >... after the Pope (of Italian descent like most of them) ... K3 you make an excellent point and causes one to wonder. They have had all those Italian popes, and now they are getting a lot of cardinals outside of Europe, but I have never heard of a black pope or even a black cardinal, not even an Indian pretending to be black. That doesn't seem right. spike From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 22:34:10 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:34:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hi Spike, On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 2:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* Brent Allsop > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? > > > > Just information for atheist trans humanists who can't organize, The > membership of the Mormon Transumanists Association > continues to grow exponentially. I believe > they are now approaching 1000 members, and they are now actively involved > in their bi annual elections. > > > > You should definitely keep them in the loop for any transhumanist > activities, if you want to expand participation. > > Brent?s comments should be considered carefully in the context of our > focus here. > Thanks > Note that I am not making any commentary or inquiry on Brent?s religious > views, (and encourage others to not ask (for that is poor form)) > I disagree with this, please ask away. And I've probably expressed all the below before, here, so just skip, if you've already heard. I'm a "Mormon Transhumansit Atheists", if anyone is asking. I keep the best of the beliefs, and chuck the obviously absurd junk in any of it, including atheists' inability to work together on anything. Where is the local atheists choir, let alone local meeting place. That's' what I want to know. The closest you come are Universal Unitarian churches, I tried that a bit, but that is more proof that they can't organize, compared to any LDS ward, and their ward choir, home teachers, visiting teachers, a member in the ward responsible for the Marine's at Camp Pendleton near San Diego, driving out to Camp Pendelton every sunday to pick them up and take them to church, and serve them dinner!!! at a time we are VERY wordies about him. a meetinghouse in every neighborhood......... I tried to join "Atheists of Utah". When I moved back to Utah, I found them meeting in a coffee shop. I was so happy to find them, and was asking how do I become one of them. They said: "I think you talk to that guy over there." So I went up to talk to him. He told me I just needed to donate $35, and I'd be in, and he gave me the PayPall address of the organization so I could do that. I went home sent in my $35, and was so proud to be an atheist of utah. That is, until a few months latter, I got a letter from PayPal saying there was nobody willing to take the money, so they were refunding the $35 back to my account!! Mormons would NEVER have a problem taking you your money, and boy the things they are able to do with it. > but I do recognize that religion in general, and LDS specifically is a > religion that has its socially-redeeming qualities, such as promotion of > family life (note that I am definitely not promoting over-breeding (keep it > to two or less.)) > I disagree with this also, How are we ever going to fill the galaxy with life, without having LOTS of children? I have 3 great adult kids, and consider not having more the biggest mistake of my life. > Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person perishes, they > are on hold, no conscious existence in any form. They exist as stored data > until they are re-assembled at a later time. This notion turns out to be > perfectly compatible with cryonics. The SDA people I talk to are very > open-minded to the idea of cryonics, generally more so than other > religions. The SDA people recognize that a cryonaut is not going to be > re-created in the flesh, but rather are candidates for a future software > existence, such as Startrek Next Generation holodeck. The SDA people can > see definite advantages to that: their holodeck avatar can teach their > great^5 grandchildren about their religion. Shrugs, OK then. Whatever > works for you. > Interesting. I didn't know you had this much to do with SDA. Yes, I think the Jehovah's witnesses have this same belief about nothing after death. I'm doing my best to convert the LDS to this doctrine, that is really hard for me. Can you imagine dying, then being a ghost in some neither world of the dead??? There is no way, being separated from the living as a ghost could be anything other than eternal damnation. Yet everyone just completely ignores that necessary truth/fact and appears to receive so much warmth and joy from the idea. They almost didn't allow us to have my father's (a long time dedicated truly believing member and good friends with everyone in his ward) funeral in their ward building, because I had him cryonically preserved. Just a neuro, we had the body in a closed casket at the funeral. In addition to having funerals in church buildings for almost anyone, the LDS Relief Society fixes dinner for the extended family, after the funeral, all for free. But all this was conditional on not mentioning cryonic preservation (at least in that ward with their particular bishop). That just ripped me apart. > LDS: the theory has humans becoming gods. I don?t claim to be an > authority on LDS, but that looks to me to be very compatible with the > notion of transhumanism. Imagine? we find that most transhumanists come > from an LDS background and most cryonicists come from SDA. > Yes, very interesting observations. Brent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 18 23:22:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:22:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01fe01d615d8$37d62a70$a7827f50$@rainier66.com> From: Brent Allsop ? Note that I am not making any commentary or inquiry on Brent?s religious views, (and encourage others to not ask (for that is poor form)) >?I disagree with this, please ask away? Brent Likewise here Brent. I don?t want to volunteer your system, but mine is open to examination. I'm a "Mormon Transhumansit Atheists", if anyone is asking. I keep the best of the beliefs, and chuck the obviously absurd junk in any of it, including atheists' inability to work together on anything. Where is the local atheists choir? Ja. There are plenty of atheists in the choir, for you and I are not the only ones who have recognized the benefits of religions if you can get over the obviously false components. >? Mormons would NEVER have a problem taking you your money, and boy the things they are able to do with it? It is very impressive. I have been back to Salt Lake City twice to do genealogy (back in the old days before the internet.) Marvelous accomplishments there. >>? (note that I am definitely not promoting over-breeding (keep it to two or less.)) >?I disagree with this also, How are we ever going to fill the galaxy with life, without having LOTS of children? I have 3 great adult kids, and consider not having more the biggest mistake of my life? Brent I recognize that those who are emotionally well-suited for family life should do family, by all means. I am also one who recognizes we haven?t reached any kind of equilibrium on our planet and do not have reason to expect we will given the current population. Ideally I can envision humanity leveling out at about 5 billion people as we move us all forward together. >?Interesting. I didn't know you had this much to do with SDA. Yes, I think the Jehovah's witnesses have this same belief about nothing after death. I'm doing my best to convert the LDS to this doctrine, that is really hard for me. Can you imagine dying, then being a ghost in some neither world of the dead??? There is no way, being separated from the living as a ghost could be anything other than eternal damnation. Yet everyone just completely ignores that necessary truth/fact and appears to receive so much warmth and joy from the idea. SDA and JW came from a common root. The two split over education: SDA wanted colleges and hospitals, JW argued there was no time for college degrees and hospitals, the job at hand was to get moving now, go knock on doors, harvest the sheaves before the apocalypse. In that sense, JWs were harder core more fundamentalist than those who went with SDA. Keith?s notions on evolutionary psychology might be interesting here with regard to people of common origins who split over something. My notion is that they intentionally emphasize that area of contention in a way that shapes culture. For instance: the Celtic Scots and Irish came from common roots with a common language. For some reason I don?t understand, the two cultures split hard on the propriety of frugality. The Scots went toward austerity and self-sufficiency, whereas the Irish was more toward generosity and extravagance. Both cultures took pride in the way their side did things, and both exaggerated the difference. Now? the upland Scottish culture and the Irish cultures are very different. SDA and JW doctrine is very similar, but there was a definite split in the area of higher education. The emphasized the difference. Today JW is culturally very different, having eschewed higher education, whereas SDA embraced it. So now there are a lot of SDA professionals, hospitals and universities (such as Loma Linda University where tumor treatment with proton accelerators was researched.) >?They almost didn't allow us to have my father's (a long time dedicated truly believing member and good friends with everyone in his ward) funeral in their ward building, because I had him cryonically preserved? Ja, you wouldn?t see that problem in an SDA funeral. >?just a neuro? Brent I had an idea I will hold until a later post, to see if Keith wants to comment on the notion that cultural splits (Scottish vs Irish Celts) could possibly have anything to offer to the field of evolutionary psychology, or if the cultural split is too recent to have had any useful contribution (I think it is.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 23:31:58 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:31:58 +1000 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> <003e01d61504$5ed3a730$1c7af590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 at 15:52, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:56 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> The commander in chief, generals and soldiers are reluctant to give or >> obey an illegal order because they think it is the wrong thing to do and, >> failing that, they are afraid of the reactions of others in the chain of >> command. If fear of citizens with guns were a deterrent then the US would >> never have been able to invade well-armed states such as Iraq. >> > > ### Oh, the US invaded some countries with well-armed citizens, and > time-and-again got their asses Kalashnikov-whipped in Vietnam, Iraq, > Afghanistan and other places. > > And remember Geronimo? A few savages with guns, managed to terrorize huge > swathes of land and were only captured once they got more or less bored > with living on the run. > > Guns work. > But do you really think the main reason Trump does not make himself supreme leader for life is that he is afraid of people in their homes with guns? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 18 23:50:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:50:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> < CAH=2ypUhjesue3-jnrb710RmcpWDmR=UA1C6gbuRhrrGHfAe3w@mail.gmail.com> <003e01d61504$5ed3a730$1c7af590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <021301d615dc$1da02030$58e06090$@rainier66.com> >> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >>?Guns work. Rafal >?But do you really think the main reason Trump does not make himself supreme leader for life is that he is afraid of people in their homes with guns? -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, it isn?t Trump but rather all the followers he would need in order to make himself supreme leader. They won?t come along, because they are the ones who would be tasked with securing the 400 million existing guns, a likely fatal assignment. Guns work: they discourage those who would break into homes. Plenty of Americans keep a burglar-discourager in the nightstand beside the bed. The bad guys know this, and go into other lines of work. Untold numbers of lives are saved as a result. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 23:53:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:53:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the book of why Message-ID: I am making another go at the this book, though I now have a person who wants it and will get it when I am through. more algorithms, Spike "Counterfactuals are the building blocks of moral behavior as well as scientific thought. The ability to reflect on one's past actions and envision alternatuve scenarios is the basis of free will and social responsibility. The algorithmization of counterfactuals invites thinking machines to benefit from this ability and participate in this (until now) uniquely human way of thinking about the world." Whew and wow. Quite a statement, eh? Chew on that. (Initially confused years ago, I now understand the Let's Make a Deal paradox perfectly. Then I just accepted that some of Monte's choices were random and some weren't.) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 00:15:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 19:15:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Brent wrote: How are we ever going to fill the galaxy with life, without having LOTS of children? I have 3 great adult kids, and consider not having more the biggest mistake of my life. The problem with this is that we are going to overfill the world long before we can establish colonies in outer space, which in any case will not be able to reduce the overpopulation on Earth. However, I support people having more than two children. In fact I support having a dozen or more IF the couple has significantly above average IQ. (Cheaper bythe Dozen - first movie I went to by myself - oddly the main character was a psychologist!). Where is the local atheists choir, let alone local meeting place. That's' what I want to know. Aside from the fact that having atheists meet for anything would be dangerous in many parts of the country, where is the reason to have a choir? Church people have hymns (except the Church of God, or is it the Church of Christ?) and thus have perfect reason to form choirs. Or an atheist bowling league? Or knitting circle? because I had him cryonically preserved. Interesting that many people believe that it takes a body to be resurrected when the world ends. Cremated people cannot be resurrected, they think. bill w On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 5:36 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Hi Spike, > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 2:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> *From:* Brent Allsop >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? >> >> >> >> Just information for atheist trans humanists who can't organize, The >> membership of the Mormon Transumanists Association >> continues to grow exponentially. I believe >> they are now approaching 1000 members, and they are now actively involved >> in their bi annual elections. >> >> >> >> You should definitely keep them in the loop for any transhumanist >> activities, if you want to expand participation. >> > > > >> Brent?s comments should be considered carefully in the context of our >> focus here. >> > Thanks > > >> Note that I am not making any commentary or inquiry on Brent?s religious >> views, (and encourage others to not ask (for that is poor form)) >> > > I disagree with this, please ask away. And I've probably expressed all > the below before, here, so just skip, if you've already heard. > > I'm a "Mormon Transhumansit Atheists", if anyone is asking. I keep the > best of the beliefs, and chuck the obviously absurd junk in any of it, > including atheists' inability to work together on anything. Where is the > local atheists choir, let alone local meeting place. That's' what I want to > know. The closest you come are Universal Unitarian churches, I tried that > a bit, but that is more proof that they can't organize, compared to any LDS > ward, and their ward choir, home teachers, visiting teachers, a member in > the ward responsible for the Marine's at Camp Pendleton near San Diego, > driving out to Camp Pendelton every sunday to pick them up and take them to > church, and serve them dinner!!! at a time we are VERY wordies about him. > a meetinghouse in every neighborhood......... > > I tried to join "Atheists of Utah". When I moved back to Utah, I found > them meeting in a coffee shop. I was so happy to find them, and was asking > how do I become one of them. They said: "I think you talk to that guy over > there." So I went up to talk to him. He told me I just needed to donate > $35, and I'd be in, and he gave me the PayPall address of the organization > so I could do that. I went home sent in my $35, and was so proud to be an > atheist of utah. That is, until a few months latter, I got a letter from > PayPal saying there was nobody willing to take the money, so they were > refunding the $35 back to my account!! Mormons would NEVER have a problem > taking you your money, and boy the things they are able to do with it. > > >> but I do recognize that religion in general, and LDS specifically is a >> religion that has its socially-redeeming qualities, such as promotion of >> family life (note that I am definitely not promoting over-breeding (keep it >> to two or less.)) >> > > I disagree with this also, How are we ever going to fill the galaxy with > life, without having LOTS of children? I have 3 great adult kids, and > consider not having more the biggest mistake of my life. > > > >> Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person perishes, >> they are on hold, no conscious existence in any form. They exist as stored >> data until they are re-assembled at a later time. This notion turns out to >> be perfectly compatible with cryonics. The SDA people I talk to are very >> open-minded to the idea of cryonics, generally more so than other >> religions. The SDA people recognize that a cryonaut is not going to be >> re-created in the flesh, but rather are candidates for a future software >> existence, such as Startrek Next Generation holodeck. The SDA people can >> see definite advantages to that: their holodeck avatar can teach their >> great^5 grandchildren about their religion. Shrugs, OK then. Whatever >> works for you. >> > > Interesting. I didn't know you had this much to do with SDA. Yes, I > think the Jehovah's witnesses have this same belief about nothing after > death. I'm doing my best to convert the LDS to this doctrine, that is > really hard for me. Can you imagine dying, then being a ghost in some > neither world of the dead??? There is no way, being separated from the > living as a ghost could be anything other than eternal damnation. Yet > everyone just completely ignores that necessary truth/fact and appears to > receive so much warmth and joy from the idea. > > They almost didn't allow us to have my father's (a long time dedicated > truly believing member and good friends with everyone in his ward) funeral > in their ward building, because I had him cryonically preserved. Just a > neuro, we had the body in a closed casket at the funeral. In addition to > having funerals in church buildings for almost anyone, the LDS Relief > Society fixes dinner for the extended family, after the funeral, all for > free. But all this was conditional on not mentioning cryonic preservation > (at least in that ward with their particular bishop). That just ripped me > apart. > > > >> LDS: the theory has humans becoming gods. I don?t claim to be an >> authority on LDS, but that looks to me to be very compatible with the >> notion of transhumanism. Imagine? we find that most transhumanists come >> from an LDS background and most cryonicists come from SDA. >> > > Yes, very interesting observations. > > Brent > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 00:51:26 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 19:51:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did not repeat any words you wrote, except incidentally. SR Ballard > On Apr 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >I have to agree. >> If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the pandemic news will make the same comparison for me. > > If my words were worthless then why did both you and Bill take the time out of your busy lives to REPEAT EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE?! > > John K Clark > >> I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w >>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as if today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It took the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number of cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots of theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is lifted too soon. >>>> >>>> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about 1,770 deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the quarantine right now is a good idea? >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 01:06:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 21:06:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:54 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *>I did not repeat any words you wrote, except incidentally.* > *SR Ballard* > And you've repeated EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE YET AGAIN! Would you care to try for a third iteration? John K Clark On Apr 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >*I have to agree. * >> *If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the pandemic >> news will make the same comparison for me.* >> > > If my words were worthless then why did both you and Bill take the time > out of your busy lives to *REPEAT EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE?!* > > John K Clark > > I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I >> missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you >> can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as if >>> today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It took >>> the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number of >>> cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots of >>> theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only >>> thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is >>> lifted too soon. >>> >>> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the >>> USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about 1,770 >>> deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday >>> COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the >>> quarantine right now is a good idea? >>> >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 01:11:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:11:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Patience is a virtue, and so is tolerance. Also, no shouting please. Never called for in this group. bill w On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:09 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:54 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> >> *>I did not repeat any words you wrote, except incidentally.* >> *SR Ballard* >> > > > And you've repeated EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE YET AGAIN! Would you care to > try for a third iteration? > > John K Clark > > On Apr 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >*I have to agree. * >>> *If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the pandemic >>> news will make the same comparison for me.* >>> >> >> If my words were worthless then why did both you and Bill take the time >> out of your busy lives to *REPEAT EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE?!* >> >> John K Clark >> >> I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I >>> missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you >>> can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as if >>>> today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It took >>>> the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number of >>>> cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots of >>>> theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only >>>> thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is >>>> lifted too soon. >>>> >>>> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the >>>> USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about 1,770 >>>> deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday >>>> COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the >>>> quarantine right now is a good idea? >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 01:35:08 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:35:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> John K Clark, do you understand how email works? Did you know that your replies are automatically placed underneath my own writing by my mail program? Did you know it actually takes more energy for me to remove them, and so them existing is actually the default? Did you know anyone who is used to reading emails, such as yourself, would not actually read that part of the email, and in fact your mail program likely hid it from you unless you went out of your way to read it? ?I? didn?t copy or repeat anything you write, a mindless program did. I?m surprised you would be upset about such a thing. It?s like getting upset because a ball dropped when you let go of it. Should I develop a similar verbal style to yours? To be extremely aggressive, flippant, and juvenile? This is literally the online equivalent of ?I?m not touching you? in it?s level of maturity. I don?t understand your need to get so aggressive when so many people agree with you. Endless screeds about a certain President (who I also hate), constant comparison of infection statistics to previous wars (I think it was mishandled but it?s not a war), crusader imagery against the anti-scientific ?barbarian? infidels (and somehow considering any of us science haters because we think that dehumanizing people is maybe a bit too much), you frothing attacks when someone wants to use the word ?but?... what gives? Why? Why do you think that just because we disagree with you that we are somehow thick, or anti-science? Why are nuanced opinions wrong? Why does everything have to be black or white? And regardless of why you are so angry, why do you have to take it out on us? Maybe I don?t contribute as much as all of you wish I could. I often feel inferior to y?all because I?m much younger and don?t have a college degree. Maybe I don?t belong here. But if there isn?t a place in the transhumanist sphere for someone without a degree, despite any interest I have or my desire to be involved, then I don?t think that?s such a good thing. I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list but it?s getting to the point where maybe I?ll unsubscribe. And I?m sure y?all wouldn?t miss me, even though I?ve been reading for almost a decade, but it?s still really sad. From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 02:39:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 19:39:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <029001d615f3$bc1a3a40$344eaec0$@rainier66.com> SR we would miss you if you were not here. All points of view offer additional perspective. We ask you to stay with us please. spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat ... I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list but it?s getting to the point where maybe I?ll unsubscribe. And I?m sure y?all wouldn?t miss me, even though I?ve been reading for almost a decade, but it?s still really sad. _______________________________________________ From interzone at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 03:30:47 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 23:30:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <029001d615f3$bc1a3a40$344eaec0$@rainier66.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <029001d615f3$bc1a3a40$344eaec0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: +1. I have not been on the list anywhere near as long as most of the remaining folks on here, but it would be disappointing to see you go. On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > SR we would miss you if you were not here. All points of view offer > additional perspective. > > We ask you to stay with us please. > > spike > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > SR Ballard via extropy-chat > ... > > I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list but it?s getting > to the point where maybe I?ll unsubscribe. And I?m sure y?all wouldn?t miss > me, even though I?ve been reading for almost a decade, but it?s still > really sad. > _______________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 04:39:17 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 00:39:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: References: <002601d614ce$56056160$02102420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 7:17 AM Kunvar Thaman < f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in> wrote: > The convergence of GANs is still not proved, correct? > ### Explain? > >As the brain matures in contact with the real world, each of the > pre-wired layers is then fleshed out, and thanks to the pre-wired scaffold > the amount of data needed to optimize each layer is low. > > We don't yet know distributed information is coded in brains, but we do > know that the cortex is not so specialized as to be able to represent only > one modality in one region. For example, consider experiments of re-wiring > to enable seeing with tongue, etc. So, is it pre-wired, really? > ### Yes, the cortex has a relatively uniform general wiring pattern throughout, and many cortical areas can take on tasks that are different from their usual ones. However, you need to consider the larger picture, of which the cortex is but one part. Our nervous system is much more than the cortex, most of it is hardwired or partially hardwired. The pattern of nuclei and tracts within the spinal cord, brainstem and the peripheral nervous system is coded in the genome, with automated routines achieving connection milestones well before birth. This is why babies in the womb kick - they are calibrating the reciprocal reflexive connections within the spinal cord. The pattern of connections in the basal ganglia is very complex and innate. The cortex cannot work at all without a huge amount of input from the basal ganglia - if your caudate or thalamus are destroyed, you become severely demented, even if the cortex is untouched. And of course, the ability of one cortical area to learn different tasks does not mean that all cortical areas are computationally equivalent. While the general pattern of short intracortical connections is as I said relatively uniform, there is variability, not as much as the differences between various subcortical structures but still substantial. If you look at the cortex under the microscope, which is a very crude tool, you can already discern a lot of subtle variability (Broadman's cortical areas), and the closer you look, using various functional techniques, the more complex it is. The wiring pattern for the macaque visual cortex has more than a hundred distinct functional parts, and it's just a very small part of the overall structure. Some of that is likely to be encoded genetically, with a suite of task-specific connection patterns (routines) ready to be deployed in a cortical area, and the specific routine depending on pattern of input from basal ganglia. This accounts for the ability to re-wire sensory areas to respond to different formats of sensory input (visual, tactile, etc.) and it is still pre-wired, in the genome. It is estimated that the brain contains more than 10,000 distinct types of neurons and hundreds of thousands of distinct neuroanatomical areas. But this is not all - the pattern of connections between cortical areas is also very non-random. There are hundreds of thousands of tracts connecting different areas of the cortex, and many of these connections are under close genetic (i.e. pre-wired) control. For example, disruption of the Foxp2 gene causes a language development impairment due to mis-wired connections to and from the Broca's area. Doubtless there are thousands of other specific genetically determined connections within the cortex. This clearly shows that the cortex does not just wire itself up from scratch, like deep-learning networks did when research on them started years ago. The cortex is built atop a huge hardwired pile of complex computing machinery, it is dependent on the pre-processed input from that machinery and it relies on a lot of hardwired machinery to process its outputs. Intracortical connections are also pre-wired and genetically controlled, not relying on a uniform simple algorithm for creating connections. ------------------------------------------ > What do you mean pre-wired? Our brains are constantly changing, in fact, > every bye of information you process causes a physical change in the brain > structure. > > ### As I was explaining above, by "pre-wired" I mean the complex pattern of nuclei and tracts throughout the spinal cord, brainstem, cerebellum, basal ganglia that is largely or even exclusively genetically determined, as well as the more responsive to experience but still genetically planned pattern of connections within the cortex. The process of individual learning changes very little on the general wiring pattern, instead works on the microscale of individual synapses and cortical columns. This is a bit analogous to hardware and software in a computer. The general inherited (genetic) wiring pattern is the hardware, and individual synapse creation in response to various inputs is analogous to software. In this analogy, the contest between modern deep learning systems and biological brains is like a contest between a general software emulation competing against a hardware-accelerated machine highly optimized for a complex task. You need stupendous general computing power to develop an emulator capable of outrunning a task-oriented hardware accelerated machine. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 04:49:21 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 00:49:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Don't go! Rafal On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:37 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list but it?s getting > to the point where maybe I?ll unsubscribe. And I?m sure y?all wouldn?t miss > me, even though I?ve been reading for almost a decade, but it?s still > really sad. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 04:52:58 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 06:52:58 +0200 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Strong beliefs (including atheism) come before rational thought and are much more powerful than rational thought. So there's no way to talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, and discussions are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual understanding. Therefore I think atheists and believers should focus on points of agreement and constructive collaboration. Like you say, cryonics is good regardless of whether you believe or not. Also scientific progress, space exploration etc. On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > From: Brent Allsop > Subject: Re: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? > > > > > > Just information for atheist trans humanists who can't organize, The membership of the Mormon Transumanists Association continues to grow exponentially. I believe they are now approaching 1000 members, and they are now actively involved in their bi annual elections. > > > > You should definitely keep them in the loop for any transhumanist activities, if you want to expand participation. > > > > > > > > > > Brent?s comments should be considered carefully in the context of our focus here. > > > > Plenty of us are atheists here, but he is right: atheism doesn?t do for people what the mainstream religions do so well: provide a social context upon which people organize and work together. Even if a religion is based on dubious or known-false infrastructure, they do meet the emotional needs of people. > > > > This works, even if the believer doesn?t actually believe the theory. I know LDS people who will openly admit they don?t accept the basic theory at all: they are Latter Day Atheists. But they keep it to themselves, and recognize the benefits of going along. Note that Stephen Jay Gould sang in the church choir and Niels Bohr kept a horseshoe over his door for good luck. When asked if he believed it would do so, he answered of course not, it was a silly superstition. But he was told it brings good luck even if one does not believe in it. > > > > Note that I am not making any commentary or inquiry on Brent?s religious views, (and encourage others to not ask (for that is poor form)) but I do recognize that religion in general, and LDS specifically is a religion that has its socially-redeeming qualities, such as promotion of family life (note that I am definitely not promoting over-breeding (keep it to two or less.)) I will unapologetically observe that Brent Alsop is a most pleasant person with which to hang. > > > > Seventh Day Adventism is a religion I embraced up until about age 20, when I discovered Darwin. I realized Darwin was right. Therefore? my religion was wrong, dead wrong, pi radians wrong. However? it too has its culturally and socially redeeming qualities. For instance: a strict, very strict rule in that ideology is noooo druuuuugs, no dope of any kind, no alcohol, no tobacco, none of that junk. Well, OK then. > > > > When I realized SDA was pi wrong, I examined carefully which concepts were redeemable, and decided that one definitely is. I hold to this day: lives are generally better without that stuff. I am a Seventh Day Atheist. But I am a quiet one, and I recognize there are social benefits to going along. (Inquiry or commentary on that last part is welcome.) I don?t try to promote my atheism, even though I know there are others. They do not try to draw it out of me, and I do not volunteer it. > > > > Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person perishes, they are on hold, no conscious existence in any form. They exist as stored data until they are re-assembled at a later time. This notion turns out to be perfectly compatible with cryonics. The SDA people I talk to are very open-minded to the idea of cryonics, generally more so than other religions. The SDA people recognize that a cryonaut is not going to be re-created in the flesh, but rather are candidates for a future software existence, such as Startrek Next Generation holodeck. The SDA people can see definite advantages to that: their holodeck avatar can teach their great^5 grandchildren about their religion. Shrugs, OK then. Whatever works for you. > > > > LDS: the theory has humans becoming gods. I don?t claim to be an authority on LDS, but that looks to me to be very compatible with the notion of transhumanism. Imagine? we find that most transhumanists come from an LDS background and most cryonicists come from SDA. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 05:07:50 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 01:07:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 2:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > My work in evolutionary psychology makes me think that building AI > based on human brains is an intolerably dangerous approach. > > Humans have rarely invoked psychological traits such as > capture-bonding and those related to going to war and the perhaps > related trait of being infested with religions. > > A human-based AI that understood a looming resource crisis could go to > war with humans. ### What I am talking about in my post is still miles away from general AI that could to to war with humans. I was discussing the reasons for the fragility of deep learning algorithms in processing real-life sensory inputs, which is surprising given their phenomenal performance in some circumscribed, artificial domains like games. I think it's perfectly OK to take inspiration from the human brain in the development of sensory analysis systems and knowledge representation systems since these devices don't act on their own and don't have much a goal system. As we get closer to recapitulating a whole mind in AI, we will need to be more circumspect but this is still a few years away, according to the prophecy I published decades ago, nine years and five months away. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 06:23:09 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:23:09 +1000 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 11:36, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John K Clark, do you understand how email works? > > Did you know that your replies are automatically placed underneath my own > writing by my mail program? > > Did you know it actually takes more energy for me to remove them, and so > them existing is actually the default? Did you know anyone who is used to > reading emails, such as yourself, would not actually read that part of the > email, and in fact your mail program likely hid it from you unless you went > out of your way to read it? > > ?I? didn?t copy or repeat anything you write, a mindless program did. I?m > surprised you would be upset about such a thing. It?s like getting upset > because a ball dropped when you let go of it. > > Should I develop a similar verbal style to yours? To be extremely > aggressive, flippant, and juvenile? This is literally the online equivalent > of ?I?m not touching you? in it?s level of maturity. > > I don?t understand your need to get so aggressive when so many people > agree with you. Endless screeds about a certain President (who I also > hate), constant comparison of infection statistics to previous wars (I > think it was mishandled but it?s not a war), crusader imagery against the > anti-scientific ?barbarian? infidels (and somehow considering any of us > science haters because we think that dehumanizing people is maybe a bit too > much), you frothing attacks when someone wants to use the word ?but?... > what gives? Why? > > Why do you think that just because we disagree with you that we are > somehow thick, or anti-science? Why are nuanced opinions wrong? Why does > everything have to be black or white? And regardless of why you are so > angry, why do you have to take it out on us? > > Maybe I don?t contribute as much as all of you wish I could. I often feel > inferior to y?all because I?m much younger and don?t have a college degree. > Maybe I don?t belong here. But if there isn?t a place in the transhumanist > sphere for someone without a degree, despite any interest I have or my > desire to be involved, then I don?t think that?s such a good thing. > > I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list but it?s getting > to the point where maybe I?ll unsubscribe. And I?m sure y?all wouldn?t miss > me, even though I?ve been reading for almost a decade, but it?s still > really sad. > Please stay. -- Stathis Papaioannou Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 07:35:27 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:35:27 +1000 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 15:03, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Strong beliefs (including atheism) come before rational thought and > are much more powerful than rational thought. So there's no way to > talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, and discussions > are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual > understanding. But atheists will accept the evidence that Zeus lives on Mount Olympus if such evidence is provided; what reason do you have to suggest they would not? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Apr 19 07:57:34 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:57:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] How email works Message-ID: SR Ballard wrote:: > I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list > but it's getting to the point where maybe I'll unsubscribe. > And I'm sure y'all wouldn't miss me, even though I've been > reading for almost a decade, but it's still really sad. Please don't leave. I always enjoy what you have to say. Sent from my IBM Pluggable Sequence Relay Calculator From atymes at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 08:16:25 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 01:16:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Why farmers? In-Reply-To: <01e201d615cf$f4c65320$de52f960$@rainier66.com> References: <1879c5a092e33bf977529d4b8a0e7e72@ultimax.com> <01e201d615cf$f4c65320$de52f960$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > They have had all > those Italian popes, and now they are getting a lot of cardinals outside of > Europe, but I have never heard of a black pope or even a black cardinal, > not > even an Indian pretending to be black. That doesn't seem right. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Arinze https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sarah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Turkson All three of these look black to me, and Wikipedia says they are cardinals of the Catholic Church. They aren't the only examples I found. As to black popes, there is speculation that Victor I (189-198 A.D.), Miltiades (311-314 A.D.), and/or Gelasius I (492-496 A.D.) may have been black, with Victor I the most likely. But you are probably thinking of modern popes only. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 08:17:52 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 01:17:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 6:37 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list but it?s getting > to the point where maybe I?ll unsubscribe. And I?m sure y?all wouldn?t miss > me, even though I?ve been reading for almost a decade, but it?s still > really sad. > I'd sooner have you here than John, if that choice was necessary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 09:31:15 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 11:31:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You can always find apparently rational ways to reject any evidence that you don?t want to accept. On 2020. Apr 19., Sun at 9:37, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 15:03, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Strong beliefs (including atheism) come before rational thought and >> are much more powerful than rational thought. So there's no way to >> talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, and discussions >> are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual >> understanding. > > > But atheists will accept the evidence that Zeus lives on Mount Olympus if > such evidence is provided; what reason do you have to suggest they would > not? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 09:37:14 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 11:37:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In my previous email ?you? is generic, not specifically directed at atheists. Rewording: People can always find apparently rational ways to reject any evidence that they don?t want to accept. On 2020. Apr 19., Sun at 11:31, Giulio Prisco wrote: > You can always find apparently rational ways to reject any evidence that > you don?t want to accept. > > On 2020. Apr 19., Sun at 9:37, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 15:03, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Strong beliefs (including atheism) come before rational thought and >>> are much more powerful than rational thought. So there's no way to >>> talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, and discussions >>> are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual >>> understanding. >> >> >> But atheists will accept the evidence that Zeus lives on Mount Olympus if >> such evidence is provided; what reason do you have to suggest they would >> not? >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Apr 19 10:49:07 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 06:49:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list but it?s getting > to the point where maybe I?ll unsubscribe. And I?m sure y?all wouldn?t > miss me, even though I?ve been reading for almost a decade, but it?s still > really sad. > I'm with you, SR. I've been here since 2000. April 8 was my first post and the first person who replied to me was Robert Bradbury who liked my post. Then I went on moderation, but I never knew why - suspect it was a computer issue, not something I said. That disappeared only recently. This can be a most interesting list, but lately it's not so much, it's just diatribe after diatribe. I'm right tired of it too. Regards, MB From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 11:29:29 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 07:29:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Patience is a virtue, and so is tolerance. Also, no shouting please. > > bill w > And incredibly you've taken me up on my invitation and generated another iteration, and so you too have just REPEATED EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THE VERY POST YOU CLAIM HAS NO VALUE!. A libertarian would not pressure somebody to stop promoting ideas he didn't like, he'd either have the courage to debate them or simply ignore posts from authors he did not think have anything worthwhile to say; but there aren't many libertarians on the Extropian list anymore and so you and SR Ballard just want to make the bad man stop. But feel free to make another iteration and repeat the post you're complaining about word for word yet again, we've already got 7 layers of nested quotes, let's try for 8. *> Never called for in this group.* NEVER? Mr. Newbie, I believe I know more about the history of this group than you do. John K Clark On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:09 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:54 PM SR Ballard vi extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> *>I did not repeat any words you wrote, except incidentally.* >>> *SR Ballard* >>> >> >> >> And you've repeated EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE YET AGAIN! Would you care >> to try for a third iteration? >> >> John K Clark >> >> On Apr 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, John Clark vi extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> >*I have to agree. * >>>> *If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the >>>> pandemic news will make the same comparison for me.* >>>> >>> >>> If my words were worthless then why did both you and Bill take the time >>> out of your busy lives to *REPEAT EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE?!* >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>> On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I >>>> missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you >>>> can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as if >>>>> today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It took >>>>> the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number of >>>>> cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots of >>>>> theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only >>>>> thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is >>>>> lifted too soon. >>>>> >>>>> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the >>>>> USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about 1,770 >>>>> deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday >>>>> COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the >>>>> quarantine right now is a good idea? >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zoielsoy at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 11:50:52 2020 From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 07:50:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: References: <002601d614ce$56056160$02102420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: if the brain doesn't have the ability to recondition itself then maybe this game of life is in fact all a predetermined outcome? On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 12:41 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 7:17 AM Kunvar Thaman < > f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in> wrote: > >> The convergence of GANs is still not proved, correct? >> > > ### Explain? > > >> >As the brain matures in contact with the real world, each of the >> pre-wired layers is then fleshed out, and thanks to the pre-wired scaffold >> the amount of data needed to optimize each layer is low. >> >> We don't yet know distributed information is coded in brains, but we do >> know that the cortex is not so specialized as to be able to represent only >> one modality in one region. For example, consider experiments of re-wiring >> to enable seeing with tongue, etc. So, is it pre-wired, really? >> > > ### Yes, the cortex has a relatively uniform general wiring pattern > throughout, and many cortical areas can take on tasks that are different > from their usual ones. However, you need to consider the larger picture, of > which the cortex is but one part. > > Our nervous system is much more than the cortex, most of it is hardwired > or partially hardwired. The pattern of nuclei and tracts within the spinal > cord, brainstem and the peripheral nervous system is coded in the genome, > with automated routines achieving connection milestones well before birth. > This is why babies in the womb kick - they are calibrating the reciprocal > reflexive connections within the spinal cord. The pattern of connections in > the basal ganglia is very complex and innate. The cortex cannot work at all > without a huge amount of input from the basal ganglia - if your caudate or > thalamus are destroyed, you become severely demented, even if the cortex is > untouched. > > And of course, the ability of one cortical area to learn different tasks > does not mean that all cortical areas are computationally equivalent. While > the general pattern of short intracortical connections is as I said > relatively uniform, there is variability, not as much as the differences > between various subcortical structures but still substantial. If you look > at the cortex under the microscope, which is a very crude tool, you can > already discern a lot of subtle variability (Broadman's cortical areas), > and the closer you look, using various functional techniques, the more > complex it is. The wiring pattern for the macaque visual cortex has more > than a hundred distinct functional parts, and it's just a very small part > of the overall structure. Some of that is likely to be encoded > genetically, with a suite of task-specific connection patterns (routines) > ready to be deployed in a cortical area, and the specific routine depending > on pattern of input from basal ganglia. This accounts for the ability to > re-wire sensory areas to respond to different formats of sensory input > (visual, tactile, etc.) and it is still pre-wired, in the genome. > > It is estimated that the brain contains more than 10,000 distinct types of > neurons and hundreds of thousands of distinct neuroanatomical areas. But > this is not all - the pattern of connections between cortical areas is also > very non-random. There are hundreds of thousands of tracts connecting > different areas of the cortex, and many of these connections are under > close genetic (i.e. pre-wired) control. For example, disruption of the > Foxp2 gene causes a language development impairment due to mis-wired > connections to and from the Broca's area. Doubtless there are thousands of > other specific genetically determined connections within the cortex. > > This clearly shows that the cortex does not just wire itself up from > scratch, like deep-learning networks did when research on them started > years ago. The cortex is built atop a huge hardwired pile of complex > computing machinery, it is dependent on the pre-processed input from that > machinery and it relies on a lot of hardwired machinery to process its > outputs. Intracortical connections are also pre-wired and genetically > controlled, not relying on a uniform simple algorithm for creating > connections. > > ------------------------------------------ > >> What do you mean pre-wired? Our brains are constantly changing, in fact, >> every bye of information you process causes a physical change in the brain >> structure. >> >> > ### As I was explaining above, by "pre-wired" I mean the complex pattern > of nuclei and tracts throughout the spinal cord, brainstem, cerebellum, > basal ganglia that is largely or even exclusively genetically determined, > as well as the more responsive to experience but still genetically planned > pattern of connections within the cortex. The process of individual > learning changes very little on the general wiring pattern, instead works > on the microscale of individual synapses and cortical columns. This is a > bit analogous to hardware and software in a computer. The general inherited > (genetic) wiring pattern is the hardware, and individual synapse creation > in response to various inputs is analogous to software. > > In this analogy, the contest between modern deep learning systems and > biological brains is like a contest between a general software emulation > competing against a hardware-accelerated machine highly optimized for a > complex task. You need stupendous general computing power to develop an > emulator capable of outrunning a task-oriented hardware accelerated machine. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Apr 19 11:52:37 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:52:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data (Was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <771f4411-ace5-74cc-9a77-bc4d21b93168@zaiboc.net> On 19/04/2020 00:53, Spike wrote: > Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person perishes, > they are on hold, no conscious existence in any form.? They exist as > stored data until they are re-assembled at a later time. I'm curious, Spike: Where or in what form what do they think this stored data is? I'm presuming this is not thought to require any particular actions on behalf of the person in question (apart, possibly, from membership of the SDA), but just happens magically? -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 12:04:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:04:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:37 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *John K Clark, do you understand how email works?* > Yes. * > Did you know that your replies are automatically placed underneath my > own writing by my mail program?* > My mail program works the same way, they all do, but I have enough brains to know how to override it, I'm not bragging because it doesn't take much brains. > *Did you know it actually takes more energy for me to remove them,* If I had enough energy to write a long post about another post that I thought was absolutely worthless then I'd sure as hell find the energy to remove the aforementioned worthless post so it's not repeated in a nest of endless iterations. Or at least that's what I think I'd do, but to tell the truth in the quarter century I've been on this list I can't recall ever writing a long post asking another poster not to ever write a post like the one he just wrote again. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 12:51:20 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:51:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: John you absolute twat, you know that replies will typically include the last emails to provide context? YOU DO THIS. What if I came at you saying, why are you quoting shit if you don't agree with it? This is the worst and most idiotic take you have EVER had, because it's completely delusional. It's not correct in anyone's version of reality. I'd rather have you go back to bashing Trump for things some people agree with, than bashing SR for things no people agree with. SR--aforementioned--please do stay. We like your posts. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 08:11 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:37 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *John K Clark, do you understand how email works?* >> > > Yes. > > * > Did you know that your replies are automatically placed underneath my >> own writing by my mail program?* >> > > My mail program works the same way, they all do, but I have enough brains > to know how to override it, I'm not bragging because it doesn't take much > brains. > > > *Did you know it actually takes more energy for me to remove them,* > > > If I had enough energy to write a long post about another post that I > thought was absolutely worthless then I'd sure as hell find the energy to > remove the aforementioned worthless post so it's not repeated in a nest of > endless iterations. > > Or at least that's what I think I'd do, but to tell the truth in the > quarter century I've been on this list I can't recall ever writing a long > post asking another poster not to ever write a post like the one he just > wrote again. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 12:55:59 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:55:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: JOHN YOU ARE NESTING QUOTES TOO. How daft are you? Are you literally mentally disturbed? Look, I'll play your game, I won't quote your stupid shit. Anyone interested will have to go back and look themselves (note to reader: don't, it's not worth it, just trust me on this one.) How are you possibly arguing with people for nesting quotes when you are doing it yourself?! Your next argument will be "why are you disagreeing with me if we're on the same email list?" PLEASE shut the fuck up. Please? :) On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 07:31 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Patience is a virtue, and so is tolerance. Also, no shouting please. >> >> bill w >> > > And incredibly you've taken me up on my invitation and generated another > iteration, and so you too have just REPEATED EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THE VERY > POST YOU CLAIM HAS NO VALUE!. A libertarian would not pressure somebody to > stop promoting ideas he didn't like, he'd either have the courage to debate > them or simply ignore posts from authors he did not think have anything > worthwhile to say; but there aren't many libertarians on the Extropian list > anymore and so you and SR Ballard just want to make the bad man stop. But > feel free to make another iteration and repeat the post you're complaining > about word for word yet again, we've already got 7 layers of nested quotes, > let's try for 8. > > *> Never called for in this group.* > > > NEVER? Mr. Newbie, I believe I know more about the history of this group > than you do. > > John K Clark > > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:09 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:54 PM SR Ballard vi extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> *>I did not repeat any words you wrote, except incidentally.* >>>> *SR Ballard* >>>> >>> >>> >>> And you've repeated EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE YET AGAIN! Would you care >>> to try for a third iteration? >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> On Apr 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, John Clark vi extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >*I have to agree. * >>>>> *If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the >>>>> pandemic news will make the same comparison for me.* >>>>> >>>> >>>> If my words were worthless then why did both you and Bill take the time >>>> out of your busy lives to *REPEAT EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE?!* >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. >>>>> >>>>> SR Ballard >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I >>>>> missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you >>>>> can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as >>>>>> if today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It >>>>>> took the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number >>>>>> of cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots >>>>>> of theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only >>>>>> thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is >>>>>> lifted too soon. >>>>>> >>>>>> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the >>>>>> USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about 1,770 >>>>>> deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday >>>>>> COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the >>>>>> quarantine right now is a good idea? >>>>>> >>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 12:56:58 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:56:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aw shit, I did quote him by mistake. I thought I deleted that. Well: I look forward to him invalidating my argument because of this mistake. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 08:55 Will Steinberg wrote: > JOHN YOU ARE NESTING QUOTES TOO. How daft are you? Are you literally > mentally disturbed? Look, I'll play your game, I won't quote your stupid > shit. Anyone interested will have to go back and look themselves (note to > reader: don't, it's not worth it, just trust me on this one.) How are you > possibly arguing with people for nesting quotes when you are doing it > yourself?! > > Your next argument will be "why are you disagreeing with me if we're on > the same email list?" > > PLEASE shut the fuck up. Please? :) > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 07:31 John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > Patience is a virtue, and so is tolerance. Also, no shouting please. >>> >>> bill w >>> >> >> And incredibly you've taken me up on my invitation and generated another >> iteration, and so you too have just REPEATED EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THE VERY >> POST YOU CLAIM HAS NO VALUE!. A libertarian would not pressure somebody to >> stop promoting ideas he didn't like, he'd either have the courage to debate >> them or simply ignore posts from authors he did not think have anything >> worthwhile to say; but there aren't many libertarians on the Extropian list >> anymore and so you and SR Ballard just want to make the bad man stop. But >> feel free to make another iteration and repeat the post you're complaining >> about word for word yet again, we've already got 7 layers of nested quotes, >> let's try for 8. >> >> *> Never called for in this group.* >> >> >> NEVER? Mr. Newbie, I believe I know more about the history of this group >> than you do. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:09 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:54 PM SR Ballard vi extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> *>I did not repeat any words you wrote, except incidentally.* >>>>> *SR Ballard* >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And you've repeated EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE YET AGAIN! Would you care >>>> to try for a third iteration? >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> On Apr 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, John Clark vi extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >*I have to agree. * >>>>>> *If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the >>>>>> pandemic news will make the same comparison for me.* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If my words were worthless then why did both you and Bill take the >>>>> time out of your busy lives to *REPEAT EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE?!* >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. >>>>>> >>>>>> SR Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I >>>>>> missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you >>>>>> can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as >>>>>>> if today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It >>>>>>> took the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number >>>>>>> of cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots >>>>>>> of theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only >>>>>>> thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is >>>>>>> lifted too soon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in >>>>>>> the USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about >>>>>>> 1,770 deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday >>>>>>> COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the >>>>>>> quarantine right now is a good idea? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 13:12:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:12:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 8:54 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John you absolute twat* [...] > I remind readers that this entire thread started and it's total reason for existing is a complaint about a post that you claim is worthless. And you have just repeated every word of the very post which caused you to conclude that I am an absolute twat. And when you complain about this post you will probably repeat all of it too as well as my previous absolute twat producing post. It has always been my polacy to trim things so we don't get endless repetitions but I'm deliberately not doing so this time to see what happens, so far you've got 2 iterations why don't you try for 3. John K Clark > , you know that replies will typically include the last emails to provide > context? YOU DO THIS. What if I came at you saying, why are you quoting > shit if you don't agree with it? This is the worst and most idiotic take > you have EVER had, because it's completely delusional. It's not correct in > anyone's version of reality. I'd rather have you go back to bashing Trump > for things some people agree with, than bashing SR for things no people > agree with. > > SR--aforementioned--please do stay. We like your posts. > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 08:11 John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:37 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > *John K Clark, do you understand how email works?* >>> >> >> Yes. >> >> * > Did you know that your replies are automatically placed underneath my >>> own writing by my mail program?* >>> >> >> My mail program works the same way, they all do, but I have enough brains >> to know how to override it, I'm not bragging because it doesn't take much >> brains. >> >> > *Did you know it actually takes more energy for me to remove them,* >> >> >> If I had enough energy to write a long post about another post that I >> thought was absolutely worthless then I'd sure as hell find the energy to >> remove the aforementioned worthless post so it's not repeated in a nest of >> endless iterations. >> >> Or at least that's what I think I'd do, but to tell the truth in the >> quarter century I've been on this list I can't recall ever writing a long >> post asking another poster not to ever write a post like the one he just >> wrote again. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 13:25:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:25:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 9:01 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *PLEASE shut the fuck up. Please? :)* If you were a libertarian you could solve your problem very easily, rather than write long eloquent posts with detailed logical arguments such as "shut the fuck up" he would simply stop reading my posts, but as I said there aren't many libertarians on this list anymore. And you're up to 9 levels of nested iterations of worthless posts, why not try for 10. John K Clark JOHN YOU ARE NESTING QUOTES TOO. How daft are you? Are you literally > mentally disturbed? Look, I'll play your game, I won't quote your stupid > shit. Anyone interested will have to go back and look themselves (note to > reader: don't, it's not worth it, just trust me on this one.) How are you > possibly arguing with people for nesting quotes when you are doing it > yourself?! > > > Your next argument will be "why are you disagreeing with me if we're on > the same email list?" > > PLEASE shut the fuck up. Please? :) > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 07:31 John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > Patience is a virtue, and so is tolerance. Also, no shouting please. >>> >>> bill w >>> >> >> And incredibly you've taken me up on my invitation and generated another >> iteration, and so you too have just REPEATED EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THE VERY >> POST YOU CLAIM HAS NO VALUE!. A libertarian would not pressure somebody to >> stop promoting ideas he didn't like, he'd either have the courage to debate >> them or simply ignore posts from authors he did not think have anything >> worthwhile to say; but there aren't many libertarians on the Extropian list >> anymore and so you and SR Ballard just want to make the bad man stop. But >> feel free to make another iteration and repeat the post you're complaining >> about word for word yet again, we've already got 7 layers of nested quotes, >> let's try for 8. >> >> *> Never called for in this group.* >> >> >> NEVER? Mr. Newbie, I believe I know more about the history of this group >> than you do. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:09 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:54 PM SR Ballard vi extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> *>I did not repeat any words you wrote, except incidentally.* >>>>> *SR Ballard* >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And you've repeated EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE YET AGAIN! Would you care >>>> to try for a third iteration? >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> On Apr 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, John Clark vi extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >*I have to agree. * >>>>>> *If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the >>>>>> pandemic news will make the same comparison for me.* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If my words were worthless then why did both you and Bill take the >>>>> time out of your busy lives to *REPEAT EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE?!* >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. >>>>>> >>>>>> SR Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I >>>>>> missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you >>>>>> can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as >>>>>>> if today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It >>>>>>> took the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number >>>>>>> of cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots >>>>>>> of theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only >>>>>>> thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is >>>>>>> lifted too soon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in >>>>>>> the USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about >>>>>>> 1,770 deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday >>>>>>> COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the >>>>>>> quarantine right now is a good idea? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Apr 19 13:29:22 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:29:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture Message-ID: Like other old folks I look back on my life and regret mistakes I made, some of them real whoppers. But it occurs to me that if I had avoided those mistakes, my life may not have turned out any better. This gives me some humility about my social/political opinions. From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 13:29:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:29:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: This an excellent post. I too wish you would stay and try to ignore what you don't like. billw On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:37 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John K Clark, do you understand how email works? > > Did you know that your replies are automatically placed underneath my own > writing by my mail program? > > Did you know it actually takes more energy for me to remove them, and so > them existing is actually the default? Did you know anyone who is used to > reading emails, such as yourself, would not actually read that part of the > email, and in fact your mail program likely hid it from you unless you went > out of your way to read it? > > ?I? didn?t copy or repeat anything you write, a mindless program did. I?m > surprised you would be upset about such a thing. It?s like getting upset > because a ball dropped when you let go of it. > > Should I develop a similar verbal style to yours? To be extremely > aggressive, flippant, and juvenile? This is literally the online equivalent > of ?I?m not touching you? in it?s level of maturity. > > I don?t understand your need to get so aggressive when so many people > agree with you. Endless screeds about a certain President (who I also > hate), constant comparison of infection statistics to previous wars (I > think it was mishandled but it?s not a war), crusader imagery against the > anti-scientific ?barbarian? infidels (and somehow considering any of us > science haters because we think that dehumanizing people is maybe a bit too > much), you frothing attacks when someone wants to use the word ?but?... > what gives? Why? > > Why do you think that just because we disagree with you that we are > somehow thick, or anti-science? Why are nuanced opinions wrong? Why does > everything have to be black or white? And regardless of why you are so > angry, why do you have to take it out on us? > > Maybe I don?t contribute as much as all of you wish I could. I often feel > inferior to y?all because I?m much younger and don?t have a college degree. > Maybe I don?t belong here. But if there isn?t a place in the transhumanist > sphere for someone without a degree, despite any interest I have or my > desire to be involved, then I don?t think that?s such a good thing. > > I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list but it?s getting > to the point where maybe I?ll unsubscribe. And I?m sure y?all wouldn?t miss > me, even though I?ve been reading for almost a decade, but it?s still > really sad. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 13:36:10 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:36:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 9:09 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Aw shit, I did quote him by mistake. I thought I deleted that. > And you quoted me not only on that post but on this one too! And remember you claim even the first iteration was worthless. I'm not sure of the math but I guess that make your post 2^9 times worthless, or would it be 9! worthless? Try for 10. John K Clark > Well: I look forward to him invalidating my argument because of this > mistake. > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 08:55 Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> JOHN YOU ARE NESTING QUOTES TOO. How daft are you? Are you literally >> mentally disturbed? Look, I'll play your game, I won't quote your stupid >> shit. Anyone interested will have to go back and look themselves (note to >> reader: don't, it's not worth it, just trust me on this one.) How are you >> possibly arguing with people for nesting quotes when you are doing it >> yourself?! >> >> Your next argument will be "why are you disagreeing with me if we're on >> the same email list?" >> >> PLEASE shut the fuck up. Please? :) >> >> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 07:31 John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> > Patience is a virtue, and so is tolerance. Also, no >>>> shouting please. >>>> >>>> bill w >>>> >>> >>> And incredibly you've taken me up on my invitation and generated another >>> iteration, and so you too have just REPEATED EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THE VERY >>> POST YOU CLAIM HAS NO VALUE!. A libertarian would not pressure somebody to >>> stop promoting ideas he didn't like, he'd either have the courage to debate >>> them or simply ignore posts from authors he did not think have anything >>> worthwhile to say; but there aren't many libertarians on the Extropian list >>> anymore and so you and SR Ballard just want to make the bad man stop. But >>> feel free to make another iteration and repeat the post you're complaining >>> about word for word yet again, we've already got 7 layers of nested quotes, >>> let's try for 8. >>> >>> *> Never called for in this group.* >>> >>> >>> NEVER? Mr. Newbie, I believe I know more about the history of this group >>> than you do. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:09 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:54 PM SR Ballard vi extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *>I did not repeat any words you wrote, except incidentally.* >>>>>> *SR Ballard* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And you've repeated EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE YET AGAIN! Would you >>>>> care to try for a third iteration? >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 18, 2020, at 9:09 AM, John Clark vi extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:59 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >*I have to agree. * >>>>>>> *If I want to compare the deaths, a quick google search for the >>>>>>> pandemic news will make the same comparison for me.* >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If my words were worthless then why did both you and Bill take the >>>>>> time out of your busy lives to *REPEAT EVERY SINGLE WORD I WROTE?!* >>>>>> >>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>> >>>>>> I?m sure all of us know the counts in our own country. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> SR Ballard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John - who are you talking to? Is someone advocating that that I >>>>>>> missed? Personally I wish you would stop sending us the counts. But you >>>>>>> can't, can you? You just cannot control it. bill w >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There were 33,643 American battle deaths during the Korean war, as >>>>>>>> if today April 17 at 11:54 GMT there were 34,641 deaths from COVID-19. It >>>>>>>> took the Korean war 3 years one month and 2 days to manufacture that number >>>>>>>> of cadavers. COVID-19 beat that number in just 48 days. And there are lots >>>>>>>> of theories but nobody is certain how high that number will get, the only >>>>>>>> thing that's certain is the number will be much higher if the quarantine is >>>>>>>> lifted too soon. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in >>>>>>>> the USA killing more people per day than heart disease (on average about >>>>>>>> 1,770 deaths per day) or cancer (about 1,640) or anything else. Yesterday >>>>>>>> COVID-19 killed 2,174 Americans. Do you *really* think ending the >>>>>>>> quarantine right now is a good idea? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 13:47:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:47:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 9:40 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Like other old folks I look back on my life and regret mistakes I made, > some of them real whoppers. Not me, I've always been perfect and never said anything that wasn't absolutely true. Oh damn, I just did, my 70 year record of perfection is ruined! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 13:59:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 06:59:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ca01d61652$cc9cdd50$65d697f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 Don't go! Rafal There ya go, SR, doctor?s orders. {8-] Besides that, in light of this latest revelation, there are some things we would like to know about you if you are willing to share. No pressure or anything. How did you find us? spike On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 9:37 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: I enjoy reading the majority of things posted on the list but it?s getting to the point where maybe I?ll unsubscribe? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 15:29:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:29:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] deaths Message-ID: Some are protesting the economic shutdown while death rates are still fairly high in the Northeast. What will be the effect of opening up? More deaths. Waiting too long with hurt the economy more than it needs to be hurt, and not waiting long enough means more unnecessary deaths. How in the world can a rational decision be made as to when to open up? I think doing so now is too soon, but what do I know? What does anybody know that can solve this problem? Tradeoff - more deaths, or more harm to the economy? I vote for as late as possible, not any earlier. The economy will recover, if more slowly. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 15:40:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:40:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f901d61660$cdc8d1d0$695a7570$@rainier66.com> >...> On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? >...Strong beliefs (including atheism) come before rational thought and are much more powerful than rational thought. So there's no way to talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, and discussions are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual understanding. Therefore I think atheists and believers should focus on points of agreement and constructive collaboration. Like you say, cryonics is good regardless of whether you believe or not. Also scientific progress, space exploration etc... Giulio Well said Giulio. I pointed out to one of my true believer friends: cryonics is different from religion in that it does not matter at all what you believe. If it works it will work regardless. Then you might be one of the few believers who have a chance to influence the far future. Regarding your comment about strong beliefs being more powerful than rational thought: my own experience in life was reading Darwin and being convinced he was right with no external real-time influences at all. I spoke to no one about it. I am and always have been an observer of nature. As soon as I learned of the evolution paradigm, I looked around and realized there are tall mountains of evidence everywhere one looks. It is impossible to look anywhere and not notice clear evidence of evolution. I was convinced against my will but convinced just the same. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 15:59:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:59:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <00fa01d61663$902fe680$b08fb380$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Then I went on moderation, but I never knew why - suspect it was a computer issue, not something I said. That disappeared only recently. This can be a most interesting list, but lately it's not so much, it's just diatribe after diatribe. I'm right tired of it too. Regards, MB MB we had a hell of a problem with the flimsy excuse for a company which hosted our ExI server for a long time wouldn't play nice with the other servers. It would cause bounces for some reason which would cause the moderator flag to be automatically set. If I didn't notice it, and the person didn't say anything, it wouldn't get fixed. We wondered what happened to you. Do post and ask if you are on moderation: recently I went thru and reset a bunch of moderation flags which were set because of access bounces. The current server appears to be more cooperative and friendly. My warm thanks goes to John Kloz who paid for that and did all the work to make it happen. I have only intentionally moderated one person in the past 15 yrs and that lasted only 4 hrs. We like to have an open forum, even recognizing that outlook has its price. Everyone has the option to filter any one user. I don't have that option because I agreed with Max to be the hapless prole tasked with pouring water on the grass fires, oy vey. spike From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Apr 19 16:10:19 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:10:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> On 19/04/2020 12:51, Guiio Prisco wrote: > Strong beliefs (including atheism) ... We've already had this discussion. Atheism, by definition, is /not/ a belief. Your later comments ("atheists or believers...", "atheists and believers...") admit as much. Saying things like the above is simply inflammatory. If someone believes there are no gods, they are not an atheist. If someone refuses to change their opinion when presented with incontrovertible evidence that contradicts their opinion, that's not atheism. If it can be proven that a god exists, then accepting that the god exists is no longer believing in it. An atheist can say "Yes, I now know that this god exists", without becoming a non-atheist, as long as there is proof for the existence of the god. "there's no way to talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, and discussions are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual understanding" You said it. In this case, the name-calling is the "there's no way to talk atheists ... out of their convictions" bit. The opinions of atheists are not convictions. They are evidence-based opinions. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 16:18:18 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 11:18:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <00ca01d61652$cc9cdd50$65d697f0$@rainier66.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <00ca01d61652$cc9cdd50$65d697f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7A1CECAE-897A-4F3C-9B6F-E94FAE90AE2A@gmail.com> > How did you find us? spike I think that?s actually sort of funny story! So growing up I used to build computers from ones we found in the trash, because we were too poor to buy computers but both thought they were cool. We started with Win 3.1 (who remember that monstrosity?) but picked up a Win95 unlimited boot disk at a garage sale when Win98 came out and so spend most of when I saw a kid tinkering with computers and (mostly) getting them to work. After watching the Matrix, I became pretty interested in the idea of what hacking was and how it worked. The idea of computer hacking actually wasn?t all that interesting to me, but it did lead me to something that I still find interesting, which is roof and tunnel hacking, and by extension Urbex. YouTube was still young then, but I was binging videos related to that, then one of the suggested videos was about this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/7/21/15999544/biohacking-finger-magnet-human-augmentation-loss Perhaps not her specifically, but it was a woman who did this. I was so jealous. I wanted a magnet! And in her talk, she names a group of people who think biohacking is a cool thing to do: transhumanists. So I looked around and found Humanity+ by our own Natasha Vita-More, who linked to the Institute page, which linked to the mail list. So I joined sometime 2010-2013, and made like... 1 post then, and was totally shot down at the time (I forget what it was, I just remember how I felt) and kept reading but didn?t post again for what, maybe 5 years? So yeah, I joined somewhere between grade ten and the first time I dropped out of college. SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 16:25:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:25:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data (Was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: <771f4411-ace5-74cc-9a77-bc4d21b93168@zaiboc.net> References: <771f4411-ace5-74cc-9a77-bc4d21b93168@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <010b01d61667$366acda0$a34068e0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Existing as stored data (Was: How many current members of ExI?) On 19/04/2020 00:53, Spike wrote: > Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person perishes, > they are on hold, no conscious existence in any form.? They exist as > stored data until they are re-assembled at a later time. I'm curious, Spike: Where or in what form what do they think this stored data is? I'm presuming this is not thought to require any particular actions on behalf of the person in question (apart, possibly, from membership of the SDA), but just happens magically? -- Ben Zaiboc _______________________________________________ Eh, I don't know that it is commonly pondered Ben. The religion was invented before computers were a thing. They might be asking that question now, but it has been over 30 yrs since I had any deep philosophical discussions with true believers. I do not wish to challenge their belief system, for good reason: salvation in most religions requires belief in that religion. If you damage their faith, you could cause them eternal damnation. I wouldn't want to be responsible for even fictitious eternal damnation. I would feel so bad about that, even if my religion is right and I managed to get an upload existence in a holodecky kind of simulated reality, knowing that I mighta caused some true believer to go to eternal destruction, regardless of the fact that the feared eternal destruction doesn't exist. If it did exist, I mighta contributed to the bastard going there, because I contributed to his disbelief. ...emmm... OK so perhaps that whole thought paradigm needs some work. In any case, I like to help people and encourage people where they are, never mind trying to convert them to atheism. Atheism works for me, for I am a person who cannot stand cognitive dissonance, not a trace of it, not one nanoparticle of internal conflict. I do know smart people who are built differently from me psychologically. I know personally a civil engineer who I went to school with, who is a literal recent creationist. Part of his job is to do core samples and map out historic mud flows in the Seattle area, so they know where are the best evacuation routes in case the mountain blows and dumps a wall of snow and mud on the towns north and west of there. He has to look at the mud cores, and calculate dates on the various features and fossils they find in the cores. He can clearly see evidence that life is old. But he has two different hemispheres, each capable of its own belief system, and he uses both. He fully recognizes he believes two different things which are mutually incompatible, and has done that for over 30 years, but... on he goes. This is a calculus I cannot do. But if he can, then it isn't my job to disabuse him. Ben I have wandered far from your original question. So here's the answer: I don't know spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 16:27:44 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 11:27:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Why farmers? In-Reply-To: <01e201d615cf$f4c65320$de52f960$@rainier66.com> References: <1879c5a092e33bf977529d4b8a0e7e72@ultimax.com> <01e201d615cf$f4c65320$de52f960$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7EF2270E-495E-4718-A77E-24C8D4335CEF@gmail.com> There are at least 14 black cardinals in Africa (I believe they have 17-19 in all.) One would have to track down all other black cardinals by hand as I don?t believe that the Church keeps demographic information on them beyond age. (Cardinals are ineligible to vote after 80.) https://secam.org/african-cardinals/ SR Ballard > On Apr 18, 2020, at 5:23 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Why farmers? > > >> ...Jeez, we could use that kind of hi/lo state comedy today. > >> ...Oh, wait a minute... > >> ...K3 > >> ...[snippissimo] > > Ja. In our world today, it helps if one has the right sensa huma. > >> ... after the Pope (of Italian descent like most of them) ... > > K3 you make an excellent point and causes one to wonder. They have had all > those Italian popes, and now they are getting a lot of cardinals outside of > Europe, but I have never heard of a black pope or even a black cardinal, not > even an Indian pretending to be black. That doesn't seem right. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Apr 19 16:30:42 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:30:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] This List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41ec627e-27c4-940e-034c-3b13d85b913c@zaiboc.net> On 19/04/2020 12:51, MB wrote: > This can be a most interesting list, but lately it's not so much, it's > just diatribe after diatribe. I'm right tired of it too. Glad your moderation has ended. I agree with you, but there are interesting posts and there are tiresome posts, always. I'd suggest doing what I do, and delete or ignore the tiresome ones. I get the email digests, and sometimes I delete entire digests because every single post is about american politics, gun ownership, 'philosophy of mind' (when I'm not in the mood for levity), etc. But I've rarely seriously considered unsubscribing (well, only during the run-up to american presidential election time, and I realise the best thing, for people like myself, is to just ignore the list for a while, until sanity prevails again). This is the main reason I'm keen on Subject-line discipline, as often a thread that starts out as something like "Cryonics membership" ends up being an argument about american senators and their religious convictions, or some such, with the same subject line. Another point is, the same person can emit both interesting/intelligent posts and tiresome/ranty ones. Very few posters here are all one or the other. It's worth sticking with it, in my humble opinion. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 16:35:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:35:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011701d61668$97339bc0$c59ad340$@rainier66.com> >...> On Behalf Of Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture Like other old folks I look back on my life and regret mistakes I made, some of them real whoppers. But it occurs to me that if I had avoided those mistakes, my life may not have turned out any better. This gives me some humility about my social/political opinions. _______________________________________________ HAH! That sounds like a CHALLENGE! We are putting together a team for the upcoming international humility Olympics. We have Anders Sandberg and that religion guy (with all those churches and songs about him (can't remember the name)) we get you and me on there, we will totally whoop ass in the humility events! Oh wait, I just disqualified myself, damn. Bill thanks for that comment. The last decade of my life has given me some humanizing humility as well (that's how I became a silver medalist to start with.) Why did Forest Gump shock people winning best picture? I really liked that movie. If you are a Tom Hanks fan, do catch Mr. Rogers. I would say that is his best work, and is saying a lot in his case. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 16:53:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:53:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <7A1CECAE-897A-4F3C-9B6F-E94FAE90AE2A@gmail.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <00ca01d61652$cc9cdd50$65d697f0$@rainier66.com> <7A1CECAE-897A-4F3C-9B6F-E94FAE90AE2A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012d01d6166b$0293a2f0$07bae8d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat? >?So I looked around and found Humanity+ by our own Natasha Vita-More? SR Thanks for that! Natasha and Max are the real owners of this list. I am just the volunteer caretaker until they get back to being ready to do their thing. I do apologize for your being shut down in 2010. This has always been a rough neighborhood because of intentionally light moderation. The price of that philosophy is this current flame war. >From your commentary we kinda knew you were young but the bit about college was new and surprising. People who have college degrees know how little of what is offered there is truly perspective-changing. Consider our kindhearted Dr. Rafal: that man has more degrees than a thermometer, but has always treated me as his equal. This caused him to whoop my ass in the Humility Olympics. Well, temporarily anyway. We tied for second, with all the others. SR, I think you are the only woman left here. They get tired of lonely men wanting to get to know them better perhaps. Or it could be they are repulsed by the tone which is often a sinusoid, alternating between abrasive and abusive. I find that atmosphere most regrettable. Regarding moderation, I have contacted one who has agreed to be a shadow moderator. That person and I will not moderate-flag anyone until we agree it just hasta be done. We are intentionally keeping a lid on the identity of that volunteer second moderator, for reasons that might be clear enough. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 16:58:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 11:58:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Two types of epistemology are involved in beliefs - authoritarianism and intuitionism. (one other is called rationalism, like math). In authoritarianism one believes because of the authority of the Bible or Koran or Buddha's teachings, your local guru, etc. The glitch here is: who is the authority? What is the basis for accepting one authority and not another? Then one has to leave authoritarianism behind and rely on intutionism (which nobody seems to be able to define - check out a philosophical dictionary and get 14 pages of gabbledegook). Or you could say that you are the authority on authorities. You decide which authority is best. Beliefs, then, are acquired by social learning: from teachers, parents, books, etc. Authorities all, many of whom are rejected during maturation, and new authorities brought in. Empiricism is science and its methods and belief has no place in it. We don't believe in Darwin's ideas: we follow them because they are the best at predicting and explaining phenomena we study. Empirical facts like the finches. There is no way a person who is basically an empiricist and another who uses authoritarianism and intuition, to have a debate. They are accepting things based on entirely different criteria and so are talking at cross purposes. Comments welcome. bill w On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:12 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 19/04/2020 12:51, Guiio Prisco wrote: > > Strong beliefs (including atheism) ... > > > We've already had this discussion. Atheism, by definition, is *not* a > belief. Your later comments ("atheists or believers...", "atheists and > believers...") admit as much. Saying things like the above is simply > inflammatory. > > If someone believes there are no gods, they are not an atheist. If someone > refuses to change their opinion when presented with incontrovertible > evidence that contradicts their opinion, that's not atheism. If it can be > proven that a god exists, then accepting that the god exists is no longer > believing in it. An atheist can say "Yes, I now know that this god exists", > without becoming a non-atheist, as long as there is proof for the existence > of the god. > > "there's no way to talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, > and discussions are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual > understanding" > > You said it. In this case, the name-calling is the "there's no way to talk > atheists ... out of their convictions" bit. The opinions of atheists are > not convictions. They are evidence-based opinions. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 17:05:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:05:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data (Was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: <010b01d61667$366acda0$a34068e0$@rainier66.com> References: <771f4411-ace5-74cc-9a77-bc4d21b93168@zaiboc.net> <010b01d61667$366acda0$a34068e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't believe in pushing back against religion. I believe in pushing empiricism and skepticism. You can do that without challenging a person's beliefs. Of course you are challenging his whole system, but that's his worry, I think bill w On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:27 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Existing as stored data (Was: How many current members > of > ExI?) > > On 19/04/2020 00:53, Spike wrote: > > Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person perishes, > > they are on hold, no conscious existence in any form. They exist as > > stored data until they are re-assembled at a later time. > > I'm curious, Spike: Where or in what form what do they think this stored > data is? I'm presuming this is not thought to require any particular > actions > on behalf of the person in question (apart, possibly, from membership of > the > SDA), but just happens magically? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > > > Eh, I don't know that it is commonly pondered Ben. The religion was > invented before computers were a thing. They might be asking that question > now, but it has been over 30 yrs since I had any deep philosophical > discussions with true believers. I do not wish to challenge their belief > system, for good reason: salvation in most religions requires belief in > that > religion. If you damage their faith, you could cause them eternal > damnation. I wouldn't want to be responsible for even fictitious eternal > damnation. I would feel so bad about that, even if my religion is right > and > I managed to get an upload existence in a holodecky kind of simulated > reality, knowing that I mighta caused some true believer to go to eternal > destruction, regardless of the fact that the feared eternal destruction > doesn't exist. If it did exist, I mighta contributed to the bastard going > there, because I contributed to his disbelief. > > ...emmm... OK so perhaps that whole thought paradigm needs some work. > > In any case, I like to help people and encourage people where they are, > never mind trying to convert them to atheism. Atheism works for me, for I > am a person who cannot stand cognitive dissonance, not a trace of it, not > one nanoparticle of internal conflict. I do know smart people who are > built > differently from me psychologically. > > I know personally a civil engineer who I went to school with, who is a > literal recent creationist. Part of his job is to do core samples and map > out historic mud flows in the Seattle area, so they know where are the best > evacuation routes in case the mountain blows and dumps a wall of snow and > mud on the towns north and west of there. He has to look at the mud cores, > and calculate dates on the various features and fossils they find in the > cores. He can clearly see evidence that life is old. But he has two > different hemispheres, each capable of its own belief system, and he uses > both. He fully recognizes he believes two different things which are > mutually incompatible, and has done that for over 30 years, but... on he > goes. This is a calculus I cannot do. But if he can, then it isn't my job > to disabuse him. > > Ben I have wandered far from your original question. So here's the answer: > I don't know > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 17:09:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:09:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture In-Reply-To: <011701d61668$97339bc0$c59ad340$@rainier66.com> References: <011701d61668$97339bc0$c59ad340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If you are a Tom Hanks fan, do catch Mr. Rogers. I would say that is his best work, and is saying a lot in his case. spike *My kids loved Mr Rogers. I thought he was smarmy at the least. Did not make me literally sick, but it was a close thing. I vastly preferred Sesame Street*. bill w On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >...> On Behalf Of Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat > > Subject: [ExI] More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when > Forrest Gump won best picture > > Like other old folks I look back on my life and regret mistakes I made, > some > of them real whoppers. But it occurs to me that if I had avoided those > mistakes, my life may not have turned out any better. > > This gives me some humility about my social/political opinions. > _______________________________________________ > > > HAH! That sounds like a CHALLENGE! We are putting together a team for the > upcoming international humility Olympics. We have Anders Sandberg and that > religion guy (with all those churches and songs about him (can't remember > the name)) we get you and me on there, we will totally whoop ass in the > humility events! > > Oh wait, I just disqualified myself, damn. > > Bill thanks for that comment. The last decade of my life has given me some > humanizing humility as well (that's how I became a silver medalist to start > with.) > > Why did Forest Gump shock people winning best picture? I really liked that > movie. If you are a Tom Hanks fan, do catch Mr. Rogers. I would say that > is his best work, and is saying a lot in his case. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 17:33:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:33:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] seattle and mt. rainier Message-ID: <015801d61670$9f7520d0$de5f6270$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...I know personally a civil engineer who I went to school with, who is a literal recent creationist. Part of his job is to do core samples and map out historic mud flows in the Seattle area, so they know where are the best evacuation routes in case the mountain blows and dumps a wall of snow and mud on the towns north and west of there...spike By way of explaining that comment, since plenty of our ExI posters live in the Seattle area: that city is built on historic mud flows from Mount Rainier. We saw what happened when Mount. St. Helens blew and we know that Mt. Rainier is an active volcano. Sooner or later, good chance the same will happen there, but... if it does nearly everyone can survive, assuming they know exactly what to do. My friend lives a little less than 17 miles from the mountain as the crow flies. There is an evacuation route and a reasonable estimated time before the mud gets there. If a person is prepared and that person will moooooove her aaasssssss along the known route, she can escape and live. But there is no time to lose. It's a cool thing, most worthwhile to be one who helps develop escape routes and procedures based on historic mud flows. Deciding where to send the crew to collect an informative core sample then interpreting it after the fact with a microscope would be a career I would consider if I had it to do over again. spike From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Apr 19 17:35:01 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:35:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Mr Rogers (was More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture In-Reply-To: References: <011701d61668$97339bc0$c59ad340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <6f785523c757a023a4caca5b05912a6e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Sun, April 19, 2020 13:09, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > If you are a Tom Hanks fan, do catch Mr. Rogers. I would say that > is his best work, and is saying a lot in his case. > > spike > > *My kids loved Mr Rogers. I thought he was smarmy at the least. Did not > make me literally sick, but it was a close thing. I vastly preferred > Sesame Street*. bill w > My kids also loved Mr Rogers. I was grateful for the low key presentation. IMHO there was too much hype in most of the TV programs, and Mr Rogers simply did not have that. It was quiet and calm, friendly and ... sometimes rather dull. (Sesame Street was more exciting/fun, I agree.) Now I am seeing much hype in the programs my grands watch on their tablets. The action is so fast I'm not sure the kids get a chance to think it through. My son has had the grands at home now for a month (while also working from home), and he's not at all sure that they'll be glad to go back to daycare. I asked if they were better behaved now, and he said, well, in some ways. They're less wound up. Regards, MB From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 17:41:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:41:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture In-Reply-To: References: <011701d61668$97339bc0$c59ad340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017201d61671$cfe53970$6fafac50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture If you are a Tom Hanks fan, do catch Mr. Rogers. I would say that is his best work, and is saying a lot in his case. spike My kids loved Mr Rogers. I thought he was smarmy at the least. Did not make me literally sick, but it was a close thing. I vastly preferred Sesame Street. bill w BillW, the Mister Rogers movie isn?t what you might think. It really is good. Tom Hanks was brilliant in that. It isn?t a comedy definitely not anything like this: https://youtu.be/whfQf3Pd5bU The Hanks movie is dark, but rewarding. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 17:56:57 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:56:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data (Was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: <771f4411-ace5-74cc-9a77-bc4d21b93168@zaiboc.net> References: <771f4411-ace5-74cc-9a77-bc4d21b93168@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Just happens *physically* On 2020. Apr 19., Sun at 14:05, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 19/04/2020 00:53, Spike wrote: > > Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person perishes, > > they are on hold, no conscious existence in any form. They exist as > > stored data until they are re-assembled at a later time. > > I'm curious, Spike: Where or in what form what do they think this stored > data is? I'm presuming this is not thought to require any particular > actions on behalf of the person in question (apart, possibly, from > membership of the SDA), but just happens magically? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 18:08:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 11:08:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mr Rogers (was More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture In-Reply-To: <6f785523c757a023a4caca5b05912a6e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <011701d61668$97339bc0$c59ad340$@rainier66.com> <6f785523c757a023a4caca5b05912a6e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <000d01d61675$8adecbd0$a09c6370$@rainier66.com> >> If you are a Tom Hanks fan, do catch Mr. Rogers...spike > > *My kids loved Mr Rogers. I thought he was smarmy at the least.... bill w > >...My kids also loved Mr Rogers. I was grateful for the low key presentation. IMHO there was too much hype in most of the TV programs, and Mr Rogers simply did not have that. It was quiet and calm, friendly and ... sometimes rather dull...MB _______________________________________________ After the camera stopped, what kind of person was Fred Rogers? How did it go when he interacted with others? What did he do for fun? What happens if a magazine wants to do a hit piece on him? It sounds like I am setting you up for a culture clash comedy, but that isn't what they did with it. There is a line which did make me laugh out loud. The writer tells his wife he is going to interview Mister Rogers and write a piece for the magazine. She is shocked. She says "Please, oh please Lloyd... don't fuck up my childhood..." {8^D My bride failed to see the humor, having never seen the original. I thought it was a hilarious comment, in an otherwise kinda dark movie. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 18:19:10 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 11:19:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Seventh Day was how many Message-ID: wrote: snip > Seventh Day Adventism is a religion I embraced up until about age 20, when I discovered Darwin. SDA is something I wrote about almost 20 years ago. Sending Spike a post from 18 years ago. He can post whatever he likes of this long public document. Little more looking, Spike discussed this topic in a reply to me in 2012. There are one or two other religions that seem to have started with temporal lobe epilepsy from head injuries. I wrote about this on this list in 2016, search for ?Mary Baker Eddy? > realized Darwin was right. Therefore? my religion was wrong, dead wrong, pi radians wrong. However? it too has its culturally and socially redeeming qualities. For instance: a strict, very strict rule in that ideology is noooo druuuuugs, no dope of any kind, no alcohol, no tobacco, none of that junk. Well, OK then. I was about the same age when religions became intolerable. I am well known for favoring drugs, worked for NORML clear back in 1972 collecting signatures to decriminalize pot, drink alcohol on a regular basis. Don't have a use for tobacco, but opiates are fine. (I have genes such that I don't get addicted.) Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 18:20:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 11:20:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data (Was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: <771f4411-ace5-74cc-9a77-bc4d21b93168@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <000e01d61677$27f5ae60$77e10b20$@rainier66.com> I'm curious, Spike: Where or in what form what do they think this stored data is? ?just happens magically? -- Ben Zaiboc > On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Existing as stored data (Was: How many current members of ExI?) >?Just happens *physically*? Giulio Oh OK I mighta misinterpreted Ben?s question. An innovation provided by SDA teaching is that the future eternity is not some floating-on-clouds and harps stuff in the paintings and cartoons, but rather a physical existence like we have now, only where all humanity?s problems are fully resolved. People can still fall and get injured and that sorta thing, but of course there is instant healing available, including resurrection, the farms (ja, farms, literal crops and all that, no bugs) are abundant, the weather is always perfect, etc, but it is a literal physical existence with matter and energy. It is paradoxical perhaps that transhumanist atheists envision a kind of uploady softwarey holodeck future sim-life in some meta-computer or M-brain, while religious fundamentalists envision the future as an idealized literal physical matter-energy existence on planet earth. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 18:31:28 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 14:31:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ... (Cheaper bythe Dozen - first movie I went to by myself - oddly the > main character was a psychologist!). > Frank Gilbreth was an efficiency expert. He never went to college but is one of the founders of the field of industrial engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Bunker_Gilbreth -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 18:45:46 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 14:45:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:01 AM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > This can be a most interesting list, but lately it's not so much, it's > just diatribe after diatribe. I'm right tired of it too. > I resisted the urge send a certain person's emails to the butbucket for far too long. I knew this person occasionally posted worthwhile material and didn't want to miss that. Eventually, I gave in. My life here has improved immeasurably. Unfortunately, I still see the saner half of the endless discussions, but my BP has dropped 10 points. :-) I encourage others to do the same: if someone on this list doesn't contribute to your experience on the list, just block them. And please, PLEASE, don't continue to try to talk sense to them. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 19:16:39 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:16:39 +1000 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 19:33, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You can always find apparently rational ways to reject any evidence that > you don?t want to accept. > There is a difference with believers because they think irrationality is a positive rather than a negative, and call it ?faith?. On 2020. Apr 19., Sun at 9:37, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 15:03, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Strong beliefs (including atheism) come before rational thought and >>> are much more powerful than rational thought. So there's no way to >>> talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, and discussions >>> are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual >>> understanding. >> >> >> But atheists will accept the evidence that Zeus lives on Mount Olympus if >> such evidence is provided; what reason do you have to suggest they would >> not? >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 19:42:06 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:42:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] seattle and mt. rainier In-Reply-To: <015801d61670$9f7520d0$de5f6270$@rainier66.com> References: <015801d61670$9f7520d0$de5f6270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <4E948312-E5FF-46E2-AC74-F69D96139B61@gmail.com> On Apr 19, 2020, at 10:41 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: spike at rainier66.com > ... > >> ...I know personally a civil engineer who I went to school with, who is a > literal recent creationist. Part of his job is to do core samples and map > out historic mud flows in the Seattle area, so they know where are the best > evacuation routes in case the mountain blows and dumps a wall of snow and > mud on the towns north and west of there...spike > > > By way of explaining that comment, since plenty of our ExI posters live in > the Seattle area: that city is built on historic mud flows from Mount > Rainier. We saw what happened when Mount. St. Helens blew and we know that > Mt. Rainier is an active volcano. Sooner or later, good chance the same > will happen there, but... if it does nearly everyone can survive, assuming > they know exactly what to do. > > My friend lives a little less than 17 miles from the mountain as the crow > flies. There is an evacuation route and a reasonable estimated time before > the mud gets there. If a person is prepared and that person will moooooove > her aaasssssss along the known route, she can escape and live. But there is > no time to lose. > > It's a cool thing, most worthwhile to be one who helps develop escape routes > and procedures based on historic mud flows. Deciding where to send the crew > to collect an informative core sample then interpreting it after the fact > with a microscope would be a career I would consider if I had it to do over > again. Minor correction: Seattle itself is not built on any recent volcanic mud flows (or lahars). Its hills are mostly the more recent work of glaciers. No part of Seattle itself is within 17 miles (27 km) of Rainier. Mount Rainier is about 100 km away and the volcanic activity that did form some of Seattle's landforms were during the Oligocene according to my reading. Those volcanoes are long gone (mashed into the Cascades, no doubt.) Rainier is a relative baby and far away. By the way, if you live near Rainier (or Baker, which is far to the north of Seattle), the evacuation routes are marked in many areas. I believe some of the schools do drills in that area. Personally, I wouldn't want to live in that area -- even though it's spectacular and I often hike through it. (I hike near Mt Rainier and Mt. Baker a few times a year.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Apr 19 20:01:17 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:01:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] More die of heart attacks during sex than died of shock when Forrest Gump won best picture Message-ID: Spike wrote: > If you are a Tom Hanks fan, do catch Mr. Rogers. I am a Tom Hanks fan so thanks for the tip Spike. I did like "Won't You Be My Neighbor?" > Why did Forest Gump shock people winning best picture? Wife and I were in Wales during the 1994 Academy Awards and since I was a big Letterman fan (I think 1994 was the year he read my viewer mail) we set the alarm for 1 AM or so to watch his monologue, and the awards. When they cut to commercials the UK broadcast filled with a panel of film buffs bitching about what a crap movie Forrest Gump was. That's really the reference for my "shock' comment. From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 20:03:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:03:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] seattle and mt. rainier In-Reply-To: <4E948312-E5FF-46E2-AC74-F69D96139B61@gmail.com> References: <015801d61670$9f7520d0$de5f6270$@rainier66.com> <4E948312-E5FF-46E2-AC74-F69D96139B61@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006701d61685$a0899180$e19cb480$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat ? Subject: Re: [ExI] seattle and mt. rainier On Apr 19, 2020, at 10:41 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?My friend lives a little less than 17 miles from the mountain as the crow flies. ?It's a cool thing, most worthwhile to be one who helps develop escape routes and procedures based on historic mud flows. ? >? By the way, if you live near Rainier (or Baker, which is far to the north of Seattle), the evacuation routes are marked in many areas. ? Regards, Dan Thanks for that Dan. If you have ever done the RAMROD bicycle run around Mt. Rainier, you started and ended near where my friend lives and does most of his work. There is a high place near there called Mount Peak, also known as Pinnacle Peak. It looks to me like his best bet would be to scramble on over there and climb quickly. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sun Apr 19 20:05:46 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:05:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle in Korea In-Reply-To: <430dd5d80c31266c4a19a88ae41f27eb@ultimax.com> References: <430dd5d80c31266c4a19a88ae41f27eb@ultimax.com> Message-ID: <5e6414a091b45bc817ad2d50a0b8159a@ultimax.com> Yesterday, I posted an incorrect estimate because I hit "SEND" before thinking the post thru and re-checking my numbers. I regret the error. Fatalities per day yesterday were half what I wrote, 2.5K/day not 5K/day. And, the second derivative has been negative for a week. (However, anything on than first derivatives are notoriously squirrely.) Cumulative figure as of midday is 40K Americans. So "next stop Vietnam" won't be until sometime next week. We came close to, but did not exceed, a 9/11 per day. I hope we never do, but I am a student of history. K3 On 2020-04-18 10:51, robot at ultimax.com wrote: > 37K, per Johns Hopkins -- we're past Korea now. > > "Next stop: Vietnam!" (per Country Joe McDonald live @ Woodstock) > > That is, at the current rate of accumulation of fatalities (~5K/day), > we should hit that sad milestone, 58K, by early-middle next week. > > Next to come would be total American military deaths in WWI (combat + > disease), 118K, which is just about double the butcher's bill for > Vietnam. Again, at current rates of dying, we should expect to see > that milestone hit by the 1st of May. > > Whether or not we do hit that will indicate whether those projections > we're hearing from the White House ("plateau at 60K") are worth > anything or not. Absent continued intervention, positive-feedback > processes tend to run to completion, so it's difficult for me to > believe that this one we're in is going to come to a sudden screeching > halt in just a week. > > Wait and see, or, wait and not see... > > K3 > > PS. This listserver's subject line management needs tightening up. > This discourse in this thread hasn't been about the ostensible subject > line for a long time now, hundreds of posts. > > PPS. I've been studying pandemics and history for a long time. > See: http://www.ultimax.com/whitepapers/deadmediarev.html . > For decades, I've been citing > Hans Zinsser's /Rats Lice and History/ (1935 & 1960), > William McNeill's /Plagues and Peoples/ (1976) (he was required > reading in National Security Studies), and > Jared Diamond's /Guns Germs and Steel/ (1997). > You should read them too if you want to understand what really shapes > human history. > Just started a book recommended by a hacker friend: /The Fate of Rome/ > by Kyle Harper, 2017, Princeton University Press. Good interview here > on Utah public radio: "Plagues And The Fate Of Rome" > https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/plagues-and-fate-rome . > > > On 2020-04-18 09:20, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: >> Message: 12 >> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:04:37 -0400 >> From: John Clark >> To: rafal at smigrodzki.org, ExI chat list >> >> Subject: Re: [ExI] More Americans died of COVID-19 than died in battle >> in Korea >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:29 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> Universal quarantine should have never started* >> >> Any particular reason why? We know from centuries of experience with >> diseases that quarantines work. From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 20:23:36 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:23:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] seattle and mt. rainier In-Reply-To: <006701d61685$a0899180$e19cb480$@rainier66.com> References: <006701d61685$a0899180$e19cb480$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <9086BA32-6627-4EA0-92A0-1BEF07683B2B@gmail.com> On Apr 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Thanks for that Dan. My pleasure. > If you have ever done the RAMROD bicycle run around Mt. Rainier, you started and ended near where my friend lives and does most of his work. No, but I have friends who?ve done the STP ? Seattle to Portland. Also, on foot, friends have hiked completely around Rainier, which takes about a week to ten days. I do day hikes, so nothing epic like that for me. > There is a high place near there called Mount Peak, also known as Pinnacle Peak. It looks to me like his best bet would be to scramble on over there and climb quickly. I have yet to hike Pinnacle, but the views are supposed to be great from there. The sad thing is that would be a very popular area ? near Paradise ? which means crowded. I?m not antisocial, but it?s nice in and to hike to an area where it?s not crowded. I usually go with a group anyhow ? typically a half dozen people. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 21:22:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 14:22:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] seattle and mt. rainier In-Reply-To: <9086BA32-6627-4EA0-92A0-1BEF07683B2B@gmail.com> References: <006701d61685$a0899180$e19cb480$@rainier66.com> <9086BA32-6627-4EA0-92A0-1BEF07683B2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005701d61690$9627c9e0$c2775da0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] seattle and mt. rainier On Apr 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Thanks for that Dan. My pleasure. If you have ever done the RAMROD bicycle run around Mt. Rainier, you started and ended near where my friend lives and does most of his work. >?Also, on foot, friends have hiked completely around Rainier, which takes about a week to ten days... You sure do, if you consider me a friend: my bride and I did the Wonderland Trail in summer of 2004. It was an epic adventure. There was one day on the west side trail when we saw more bears than we saw people. We are trying to score permits to do the west side again this summer from Cougar Rock to Mowich Lake. If we get permits, we will take the afore-mentioned friend and my son. >?I have yet to hike Pinnacle, but the views are supposed to be great from there. The sad thing is that would be a very popular area ? near Paradise? We are talking about two different Pinnacle Peaks. The one I meant is near Enumclaw. The one near Paradise is stunning indeed. We were up there last summer. Ja it is crowded there at times. Go during the week. Be ye very careful: lots of loose rock and ways to hurt yourself on that trail. >?I?m not antisocial, but it?s nice in and to hike to an area where it?s not crowded. I usually go with a group anyhow ? typically a half dozen people. Regards, Dan Dan that trail, particularly the west side, is all about solitude. That year we made the full loop, we had back-country permits which are damn hard to get (good thing they are.) We were overlooking Golden Lakes from part way up the mountain when I took this picture looking east: Thanks for mentioning that trail, for they are fond memories indeed. I do hope we get permits again soon, for we have few remaining years in which we will be strong enough to do that 4 day hike which is the west side. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Sun Apr 19 21:40:28 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:40:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 Message-ID: Hi, Spike's comment below made me remember I am also a woman, not that there's anything worong with that. (Seinfeld humor ~ lol) Also, I have been ignoring the flying flames about deleting email tails, they do seem quite silly. SR, I didn't know you were a woman, but I also agree that you should stick around. As a long-time mostly lurker, I enjoy your posts. Plus, evidently we share a lack that pesky y-chromosome, so there's that too :) best to all, Regina --------truncated mail-tail below!!--------- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:53:10 -0700 From: To: "'ExI chat list'" Cc: Subject: Re: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 Message-ID: <012d01d6166b$0293a2f0$07bae8d0$@rainier66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat? >?So I looked around and found Humanity+ by our own Natasha Vita-More? SR Thanks for that! Natasha and Max are the real owners of this list. I am just the volunteer caretaker until they get back to being ready to do their thing. I do apologize for your being shut down in 2010. This has always been a rough neighborhood because of intentionally light moderation. The price of that philosophy is this current flame war. >From your commentary we kinda knew you were young but the bit about college was new and surprising. People who have college degrees know how little of what is offered there is truly perspective-changing. Consider our kindhearted Dr. Rafal: that man has more degrees than a thermometer, but has always treated me as his equal. This caused him to whoop my ass in the Humility Olympics. Well, temporarily anyway. We tied for second, with all the others. SR, I think you are the only woman left here. They get tired of lonely men wanting to get to know them better perhaps. Or it could be they are repulsed by the tone which is often a sinusoid, alternating between abrasive and abusive. I find that atmosphere most regrettable. Regarding moderation, I have contacted one who has agreed to be a shadow moderator. That person and I will not moderate-flag anyone until we agree it just hasta be done. We are intentionally keeping a lid on the identity of that volunteer second moderator, for reasons that might be clear enough. spike ------end, whew-------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 21:55:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 14:55:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101d61695$4cdb7fc0$e6927f40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 Hi, Spike's comment below made me remember I am also a woman, not that there's anything worong with that. (Seinfeld humor ~ lol) Also, I have been ignoring the flying flames about deleting email tails, they do seem quite silly. SR, I didn't know you were a woman, but I also agree that you should stick around. As a long-time mostly lurker, I enjoy your posts. Plus, evidently we share a lack that pesky y-chromosome, so there's that too :) best to all, Regina OOOOPS, my apologies Regina Rose. I feared all our Y-less people were driven away, and ja, there is a lot wrong with that. It isn?t the first time that has happened. {8-[ Ladies make this into a world worth living. Far too often we Y-guys fail to return the favor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Apr 19 22:00:15 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:00:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39afad560d6ff2c47156142a36a1dac0.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> I'm here too, a grandma. (spike knows that, he just forgot....) Ended up here 20 years ago because I was foster mom to a Python regius. Long complicated silly story. ;) Be well, y'all. MB On Sun, April 19, 2020 17:40, Re Rose via extropy-chat wrote: > Hi, Spike's comment below made me remember I am also a woman, not that > there's anything worong with that. > > (Seinfeld humor ~ lol) > > Also, I have been ignoring the flying flames about deleting email tails, > they do seem quite silly. > > SR, I didn't know you were a woman, but I also agree that you should stick > around. As a long-time mostly lurker, I enjoy your posts. Plus, > evidently we share a lack that pesky y-chromosome, so there's that too :) > > best to all, > Regina > > --------truncated mail-tail below!!--------- > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:53:10 -0700 > From: > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Cc: > Subject: Re: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of > COVID-19 > Message-ID: <012d01d6166b$0293a2f0$07bae8d0$@rainier66.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > SR > Ballard via extropy-chat? > > > >>?So I looked around and found Humanity+ by our own Natasha Vita-More? SR > > Thanks for that! > > Natasha and Max are the real owners of this list. I am just the volunteer > caretaker until they get back to being ready to do their thing. > > I do apologize for your being shut down in 2010. This has always been a > rough neighborhood because of intentionally light moderation. The price > of > that philosophy is this current flame war. > >>From your commentary we kinda knew you were young but the bit about > college was new and surprising. People who have college degrees know how > little of what is offered there is truly perspective-changing. Consider > our kindhearted Dr. Rafal: that man has more degrees than a thermometer, > but has always treated me as his equal. This caused him to whoop my ass > in > the Humility Olympics. Well, temporarily anyway. We tied for second, > with > all the others. > > SR, I think you are the only woman left here. They get tired of lonely > men > wanting to get to know them better perhaps. Or it could be they are > repulsed by the tone which is often a sinusoid, alternating between > abrasive and abusive. I find that atmosphere most regrettable. > > Regarding moderation, I have contacted one who has agreed to be a shadow > moderator. That person and I will not moderate-flag anyone until we agree > it just hasta be done. We are intentionally keeping a lid on the identity > of that volunteer second moderator, for reasons that might be clear > enough. > > spike > > ------end, whew-------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 22:59:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:59:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] best web site for virus Message-ID: webmd.com bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 19 23:13:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:13:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <39afad560d6ff2c47156142a36a1dac0.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <39afad560d6ff2c47156142a36a1dac0.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <003301d616a0$2bbc2fa0$83348ee0$@rainier66.com> I'm here too, a grandma. (spike knows that, he just forgot....) Ended up here 20 years ago because I was foster mom to a Python regius. Long complicated silly story. ;) Be well, y'all. MB Oh dang, so right you are MB. I did forget that. You showed up right about the time Mike Butler disappeared, and I, well several of us, assumed MB was Mike, but he had discovered nice pills or something. I do remember your setting me straight on that once before. OK excellent. >...Ended up here 20 years ago because I was foster mom to a Python regius. Long complicated silly story. ;) We like long complicated silly stories. They don't hafta read them if they don't want to. Do tell please madam. I don't recall we had any herpetology hipsters here to consult. How did you become a foster mom to a python regius please and how did that result in your landing here? spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 23:36:19 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:36:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: I was about to reply to John but I had the revelation that it will just make him post more. SR I for one am glad you are here--not just because of the little female representation here, but because of the little YOUNG representation here. I am 28 next month and sometimes I feel like a fetus round these parts On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 14:47 Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:01 AM MB via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> This can be a most interesting list, but lately it's not so much, it's >> just diatribe after diatribe. I'm right tired of it too. >> > > I resisted the urge send a certain person's emails to the butbucket for > far too long. I knew this person occasionally posted worthwhile material > and didn't want to miss that. Eventually, I gave in. My life here has > improved immeasurably. Unfortunately, I still see the saner half of the > endless discussions, but my BP has dropped 10 points. :-) > > I encourage others to do the same: if someone on this list doesn't > contribute to your experience on the list, just block them. And please, > PLEASE, don't continue to try to talk sense to them. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 23:39:46 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:39:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: I feel like a fetus around these parts and I'm 49! On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 7:37 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I was about to reply to John but I had the revelation that it will just > make him post more. > > SR I for one am glad you are here--not just because of the little female > representation here, but because of the little YOUNG representation here. > I am 28 next month and sometimes I feel like a fetus round these parts > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 14:47 Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:01 AM MB via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> This can be a most interesting list, but lately it's not so much, it's >>> just diatribe after diatribe. I'm right tired of it too. >>> >> >> I resisted the urge send a certain person's emails to the butbucket for >> far too long. I knew this person occasionally posted worthwhile material >> and didn't want to miss that. Eventually, I gave in. My life here has >> improved immeasurably. Unfortunately, I still see the saner half of the >> endless discussions, but my BP has dropped 10 points. :-) >> >> I encourage others to do the same: if someone on this list doesn't >> contribute to your experience on the list, just block them. And please, >> PLEASE, don't continue to try to talk sense to them. >> >> -Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 23:43:29 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:43:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism Message-ID: What are y'all? I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my beliefs on consciousness. I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe not? I know Stathis is something trippy too. Just wondering -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 23:54:43 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:54:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8067AEF7-9C58-4270-B85E-2BB4448EC4E2@gmail.com> Atheist. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Apr 19, 2020, at 4:52 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > What are y'all? > > I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my beliefs on consciousness. I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe not? I know Stathis is something trippy too. Just wondering -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 00:30:47 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:30:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: <8067AEF7-9C58-4270-B85E-2BB4448EC4E2@gmail.com> References: <8067AEF7-9C58-4270-B85E-2BB4448EC4E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Atheist. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 4:57 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Atheist. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > On Apr 19, 2020, at 4:52 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ? > > What are y'all? > > I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my > beliefs on consciousness. I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe > not? I know Stathis is something trippy too. Just wondering > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 00:35:40 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:35:40 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 09:51, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What are y'all? > > I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my > beliefs on consciousness. I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe > not? I know Stathis is something trippy too. Just wondering > Atheist. However, weird conclusions come from the assumption that consciousness is not tied to a biological substrate and can result from computation. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 00:49:01 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:49:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks, everyone, for all the great comments, they all mean a lot to me. Just a few comments: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 1:17 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > There is a difference with believers because they think irrationality is a > positive rather than a negative, and call it ?faith?. > I think it is positive, if it really is positive. For example, typical Mormons think they have faith that there is a devil. I love to point out believing there is a devil, is neither faith nor hope. It it the opposite. It is faithlessly giving up and accepting as true, the more terrible of two alternatives as being true or necessary. While at the same time Mormon Transhumanist (non atheists) have their "New God Argument ". I understand the compelling mathematical arguments being made, there, so it is devastating to my atheistic faith and hope, that it isn't necessary for Gods to hide. Because of those arguments, I feel I must accept that there is far more chance that there is a God, hiding from us, than there isn't. But I can also, rationally, point out that it isn't absolutely certain. There is still some small chance we might be the first, or something. So, this is where my faith and hope reside, even though I must rationally accept that it is unlikely, at least until my faith is 100% falsified (i.e. god really appears to us all or something) On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 11:03 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Strong beliefs (including atheism) come before rational thought and > are much more powerful than rational thought. So there's no way to > talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, and discussions > are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual > understanding. This is only true for beliefs that aren't falsifiable (Strawberry is better than Chocolate) or beliefs that haven't YET been falsified. (Functionalism vs Materialism vs Dualism , there is a god, and so on). As long as experimentalists remain qualia blind (only using one word for all things 'red') there will remain a huge gap in our understanding of qualitative consciousness, qualia, or the "spiritual". Any belief that hasn't yet been fully falsified, can still be justifiably hoped for, resulting in all the many remaining "crap in the gap" theories of consciousness. This is similar to the God of the Gaps idea in the field of evolution. That is why Canonizes is all about falsifiability. The only good camps, are those that are falsifiable. Once each camp admits how their camp can be falsified, then it is up to the experimentalists to force us all into THE "scientific consensus" camp. We've already seen one camp abandoned by it's supporter, because of falsifying data coming from the large Hadron Collider. I talk about 'qualia blindness' below. Check out this new set of 13 questions to find out if you understand qualia blindness and let me know if that helps. Falsifiability is the power of the "Representational Qualia Theory " super camp which has a near unanimous consensus. Even Dennett's "Predictive Bayesian Coding Theory " supports it. It shows how all the many subcamps mentioned above, making different falsifiable predictions about the the nature of qualia, can be falsified. Once experimentalists start focusing on finding out, which of all our abstract descriptions of stuff in the brain, is a description of redness, (by using more than one word for all things red) they will be able to discover what it is that is intrinsically red, falsifying all but THE ONE theory that can't be falsified. Once experimentalists demonstrate to us what it is (in nature or out) that has an intrinsic redness quality, that will finally falsify all the crap in the gap theories, and we will finally be able to see a definitive "scientific consensus" in this field with no more supported crap theories. Yes, if experimentalists can prove how redness is more than only an intrinsic property of something like glutamate as it reacts in a synapse, by demonstrating that redness can be substrate independent, I will have to join Stathis' (more hopeful?) functionalist camp. But, then, Stathis, what if no matter what people try, redness is never possible, without glutamate...? I just hope that they don't work through all know physics, proving that none of it has an intrinsic redness quality. Because that would mean redness is some type of new physics or some type of dualism , some of which is still hiding from us, or worse even possibly not approachable via science . ;( We just need to start distinguishing between reality, and knowledge of reality, so we can start looking for intrinsic colors of physics , before we can finally find out what it is in this world that really has all the intrinsic colors we can't deny exist. Brent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 00:50:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:50:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How email works; was: More Americans died of COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <00b001d616ad$c1e8c8a0$45ba59e0$@rainier66.com> SR I for one am glad you are here--not just because of the little female representation here, but because of the little YOUNG representation here. I am 28 next month and sometimes I feel like a fetus round these parts? Fetus? At 28? Scarcely an embryo! Youthful wards you are, barely sperm, potential lifeforms! The definition is simple. Anyone older than I am is old. Anyone younger than I am is crazy. I am neither of these. We value our young people here. Glad to have you, Will and SR, and the rest of you children. I envy you in a way: you will be around long enough to see how this all turns out. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 00:51:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:51:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: <8067AEF7-9C58-4270-B85E-2BB4448EC4E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b501d616ad$e3b791a0$ab26b4e0$@rainier66.com> Flaming atheist. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 5:31 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] Atheism Atheist. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 4:57 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > wrote: Atheist. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst On Apr 19, 2020, at 4:52 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > wrote: ? What are y'all? I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my beliefs on consciousness. I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe not? I know Stathis is something trippy too. Just wondering _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 01:02:26 2020 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:02:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I read all the time but I rarely communicate but I want to say hello at this invitation. In my conversation with Stephen Hawking in 2012. I've come to understand that faith is a non-material path to Infiniti, the way that education leads to a path, and can be described, but I'm not going to do it. I'm just saying it's probably in the young adult version of Stephen Hawking's seminal book. With delight to be feeding my mind with your lovely conversations over the last 15 plus years. Respect and gratitude, ilsa On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 4:49 PM Jose Cordeiro via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dear Spike and ExI friends, > > How are you doing? I am not a regular writer here, but I do try to > read most messages since there are excellent contributions, and some people > here that I admire and follow from many years! > > How many participants are there in the list now? I imagine most are > like me, who do not participate actively? > > By the way, I am planning to organize the next TransVision conference > in Madrid, during October 16-18, or later depending on the pandemic, and I > would like to invite you all to come. It will be safe, fun, educational, > and immortal, so kindly share with others too, and let me know if you can > participate, please: https://www.transvisionmadrid.com/ > > Finally, let me share with you my interview/article/profile in the > latest issue of the Alcor Cryonics magazine, I hope that you have a few > minutes to take a look and comment: Cryonics Magazine 2019 > > > Cryonics Magazine 2019 > > > > Best of luck, keep safe, wash your hands, and welcome to Spain after > the pandemic... > > Futuristically yours, > > La vie est belle! > > Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD (www.cordeiro.org) > > > On Friday, April 17, 2020, 09:48:44 PM GMT+2, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > > With the recent surge in chatter here, and since there aren?t that many of > us left, I propose relaxing guidelines on number of posts per day. We > instituted that back in the 90s when there were a coupla hundred regular > posters. Now it is down to the usual suspects, about a dozen. I propose > we all just post away. > > > > Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 exposure > than we previously thought. My doctor contacted and wants me to come in > for testing when the quarantine is over. > > > > > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA > > > > I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know what > it was. I landed in the hospital. It was most unpleasant, but afterwards > I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid. I assumed it > was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of magnitude. > > > > We have a lot of regular travelers to and from China in the area. In > retrospect, it is very possible that I had Covid-19. It took me four weeks > to feel better, and about seven weeks before I really felt completely back > to normal. If so, it would agree with what Stanford U found. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 01:08:42 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 21:08:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Athiest, although I'd rather be a pantheist! On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 7:51 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What are y'all? > > I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my > beliefs on consciousness. I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe > not? I know Stathis is something trippy too. Just wondering > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 01:10:20 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:10:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Stathis, On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:39 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Atheist. However, weird conclusions come from the assumption that > consciousness is not tied to a biological substrate and can result from > computation. > Do tell us more. And Great Question, Will, asking everyone about their beliefs in God. Although, how many times has this question been asked and/or answered on this list, alone? And how many more times will someone need to ask this? It'd help amplify they wisdom of the crowd on this topic, and stop all the useless repetition, if everyone would just canonize their views, once and for all, someplace like here . Brent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 01:12:08 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 21:12:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Said conclusions are why I switched. I think it's illogical to believe that two hemispheres of a brain can form a consciousness, but not two brains. To look at it another way, does one consider their brain themself? What about brain cells necessary for computation but not making the computations themselves? What about further reaches of the nervous system that exchange information with the brain? What about the rest of the body, like your arm? What about a controllable prosthetic arm? What about a hammer you hold in it? What about a diary you store memories in? What about your online presence? What about another brain you have given and exchanged information with? What about your house and all the ways you have modified it to suit you? What about everything you cause? What about everything that causes you? I don't think there is a rational end to this slippery slope. Ergo, God. In my opinion, simulation arguments are also equivalent to theism. I consider simulationists to have very similar viewpoints to my own--perhaps they are even stricter theists, because I don't believe in divine intervention unless we are in a simulation. Even if we are in a simulation, our masters are probably in one too, no? The idea of a God allows for infinitely recurring simulations. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 20:39 Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 09:51, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> What are y'all? >> >> I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my >> beliefs on consciousness. I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe >> not? I know Stathis is something trippy too. Just wondering >> > > Atheist. However, weird conclusions come from the assumption that > consciousness is not tied to a biological substrate and can result from > computation. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 01:28:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:28:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002401d616b2$f9879390$ec96bab0$@rainier66.com> >?I read all the time but I rarely communicate but I want to say hello at this invitation. >?In my conversation with Stephen Hawking in 2012. I've come to understand that faith is a non-material path to Infiniti, the way that education leads to a path, and can be described, but I'm not going to do it. I'm just saying it's probably in the young adult version of Stephen Hawking's seminal book. Ilsa! You spoke with Stephen Hawking! I am no longer an atheist, there is a god and she is YOU! Oh this is cool, I didn?t even know you were still on the list. Glad to see you are still here my young friend. This is why I never could answer Jose?s subject-line question: I don?t know. I can estimate a couple dozen regular posters, and we know we have lurkers, but beyond that I suck. >?With delight to be feeding my mind with your lovely conversations over the last 15 plus years? ilsa Lovely conversations? Where you find? A more moderate form of the word ?love? would be ?like? so I could go with we have likely conversations. But English is screwed up and we already used up the term likely for something else. Of course it is also an open-minded language, so we can add more definitions to the same word. If halfway between like and dislike is meh, then I propose the term likely to mean somewhere between lovely and mehly. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 01:28:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:28:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: <00b501d616ad$e3b791a0$ab26b4e0$@rainier66.com> References: <8067AEF7-9C58-4270-B85E-2BB4448EC4E2@gmail.com> <00b501d616ad$e3b791a0$ab26b4e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Naturalist. I dislike words, like 'nondairy creamer' that tell you what something isn't rather than what something is. So I believe in the natural world - what we can see, hear, etc. Often called 'materialism'. Nothing metaphysical in the sense of beyond the physical. I can't say 'don't believe in something I cannot understand' because that would include quantum, which I don't understand. But I suppose 'naturalist' is not going to catch on despite this definition: "one who studies natural, rather than spiritual, things" bill w On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 8:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Flaming atheist. > > > > spike > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, April 19, 2020 5:31 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Adrian Tymes > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Atheism > > > > Atheist. > > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 4:57 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Atheist. > > Regards, > > > > Dan > > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > > > On Apr 19, 2020, at 4:52 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ? > > What are y'all? > > > > I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my > beliefs on consciousness. I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe > not? I know Stathis is something trippy too. Just wondering > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 01:29:30 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:29:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Hi Ben, On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:11 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The opinions of atheists are not convictions. They are evidence-based > opinions. > Not for those of us in the in the "hope based atheist opinion " camp. As I indicated on the other related thread that spawned all this repetitive discussion, Mormon Transhumanist (non atheists) have their "New God Argument " which is basically the same argument that we are in a simulation. This argument is devastating to my hope that Gods don't have to hide. It forces me to accept that there is a good chance that we are in a simulation (and that there is a creator of that simulation, hiding from us). But, I can also rationally point out that there is a small possibility that we may be the first, or something like that. So, for me, this evidence based most likely possibility that we are in a simulation is overridden by my faith and hope that we are not. Brent Allsop -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 01:32:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:32:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> <01ca01d615be$54d25b90$fe7712b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: if we trust in our own superhuman potential then we should trust that we have a compassionate creator. from a web page I see no connection there, so it is a non sequitor. bill w On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:51 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Thanks, everyone, for all the great comments, they all mean a lot to me. > Just a few comments: > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 1:17 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> There is a difference with believers because they think irrationality is >> a positive rather than a negative, and call it ?faith?. >> > > I think it is positive, if it really is positive. > > For example, typical Mormons think they have faith that there is a devil. > I love to point out believing there is a devil, is neither faith nor hope. > It it the opposite. It is faithlessly giving up and accepting as true, the > more terrible of two alternatives as being true or necessary. > > While at the same time Mormon Transhumanist (non atheists) have their "New > God Argument ". I understand the > compelling mathematical arguments being made, there, so it is > devastating to my atheistic faith and hope, that it isn't necessary for > Gods to hide. Because of those arguments, I feel I must accept that there > is far more chance that there is a God, hiding from us, than there isn't. > But I can also, rationally, point out that it isn't absolutely certain. > There is still some small chance we might be the first, or something. So, > this is where my faith and hope reside, even though I must rationally > accept that it is unlikely, at least until my faith is 100% falsified (i.e. > god really appears to us all or something) > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 11:03 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Strong beliefs (including atheism) come before rational thought and >> are much more powerful than rational thought. So there's no way to >> talk atheists or believers out of their convictions, and discussions >> are much more likely to end in name calling than in mutual >> understanding. > > > This is only true for beliefs that aren't falsifiable (Strawberry is > better than Chocolate) or beliefs that haven't YET been falsified. ( > Functionalism > vs > Materialism > vs > Dualism , there is a > god, and so on). > As long as experimentalists remain qualia blind (only using one word for > all things 'red') there will remain a huge gap in our understanding of > qualitative consciousness, qualia, or the "spiritual". Any belief that > hasn't yet been fully falsified, can still be justifiably hoped for, > resulting in all the many remaining "crap in the gap" theories of > consciousness. This is similar to the God of the Gaps idea in the field of > evolution. > > That is why Canonizes is all about falsifiability. The only good camps, > are those that are falsifiable. Once each camp admits how their camp can > be falsified, then it is up to the experimentalists to force us all into > THE "scientific consensus" camp. We've already seen one camp abandoned by > it's supporter, because of falsifying data coming from the large Hadron > Collider. > > I talk about 'qualia blindness' below. Check out this new set of 13 > questions to find out if you understand qualia blindness > and let me know if that > helps. > > Falsifiability is the power of the "Representational Qualia Theory > " super camp > which has a near unanimous consensus. Even Dennett's "Predictive > Bayesian Coding Theory > " supports it. > > It shows how all the many subcamps mentioned above, making different > falsifiable predictions about the the nature of qualia, can be falsified. > Once experimentalists start focusing on finding out, which of all our > abstract descriptions of stuff in the brain, is a description of redness, > (by using more than one word for all things red) they will be able to > discover what it is that is intrinsically red, falsifying all but THE ONE > theory that can't be falsified. Once experimentalists demonstrate to us > what it is (in nature or out) that has an intrinsic redness quality, that > will finally falsify all the crap in the gap theories, and we will finally > be able to see a definitive "scientific consensus" in this field with no > more supported crap theories. > > Yes, if experimentalists can prove how redness is more than only an > intrinsic property of something like glutamate as it reacts in a synapse, > by demonstrating that redness can be substrate independent, I will have to > join Stathis' (more hopeful?) functionalist > camp. But, > then, Stathis, what if no matter what people try, redness is never > possible, without glutamate...? I just hope that they don't work through > all know physics, proving that none of it has an intrinsic redness > quality. Because that would mean redness is some type of new physics > or some type of dualism > , some of > which is still hiding from us, or worse even possibly not approachable > via science . > ;( > > We just need to start distinguishing between reality, and knowledge of > reality, so we can start looking for intrinsic colors of physics > , before we can finally find > out what it is in this world that really has all the intrinsic colors we > can't deny exist. > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 01:34:57 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:34:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Ilsa, Good to hear these wonderful comments from you. Wow, you've had such an interesting conversation with Stephen Hawking? That gives you as at least as much credibility as those of us who went out to lunch with Elon Musk, back at the 2001 extropy conference, before he sold PayPall. Looking forward to hearing more. Brent On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:13 PM ilsa via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I read all the time but I rarely communicate but I want to say hello at > this invitation. > > In my conversation with Stephen Hawking in 2012. I've come to understand > that faith is a non-material path to Infiniti, the way that education leads > to a path, and can be described, but I'm not going to do it. I'm just > saying it's probably in the young adult version of Stephen Hawking's > seminal book. > > With delight to be feeding my mind with your lovely conversations over the > last 15 plus years. > > Respect and gratitude, ilsa > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 4:49 PM Jose Cordeiro via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Dear Spike and ExI friends, >> >> How are you doing? I am not a regular writer here, but I do try to >> read most messages since there are excellent contributions, and some people >> here that I admire and follow from many years! >> >> How many participants are there in the list now? I imagine most are >> like me, who do not participate actively? >> >> By the way, I am planning to organize the next TransVision >> conference in Madrid, during October 16-18, or later depending on the >> pandemic, and I would like to invite you all to come. It will be safe, fun, >> educational, and immortal, so kindly share with others too, and let me know >> if you can participate, please: https://www.transvisionmadrid.com/ >> >> Finally, let me share with you my interview/article/profile in the >> latest issue of the Alcor Cryonics magazine, I hope that you have a few >> minutes to take a look and comment: Cryonics Magazine 2019 >> >> >> Cryonics Magazine 2019 >> >> >> >> Best of luck, keep safe, wash your hands, and welcome to Spain after >> the pandemic... >> >> Futuristically yours, >> >> La vie est belle! >> >> Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD (www.cordeiro.org) >> >> >> On Friday, April 17, 2020, 09:48:44 PM GMT+2, spike jones via >> extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> With the recent surge in chatter here, and since there aren?t that many >> of us left, I propose relaxing guidelines on number of posts per day. We >> instituted that back in the 90s when there were a coupla hundred regular >> posters. Now it is down to the usual suspects, about a dozen. I propose >> we all just post away. >> >> >> >> Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 >> exposure than we previously thought. My doctor contacted and wants me to >> come in for testing when the quarantine is over. >> >> >> >> >> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA >> >> >> >> I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know >> what it was. I landed in the hospital. It was most unpleasant, but >> afterwards I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid. I >> assumed it was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of >> magnitude. >> >> >> >> We have a lot of regular travelers to and from China in the area. In >> retrospect, it is very possible that I had Covid-19. It took me four weeks >> to feel better, and about seven weeks before I really felt completely back >> to normal. If so, it would agree with what Stanford U found. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 01:37:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:37:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003b01d616b4$35a505a0$a0ef10e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Atheism >?Athiest, although I'd rather be a pantheist! That does kinda sound like fun, but it leads to a good question: if one would rather be something else, a different faith, does one really have a choice? If one sees clear evidence of evolution for instance, but one?s belief system says no evolution, but one likes his belief system as is, does it come crashing down anyway? Can we choose what we believe? Does it depend on the person? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 01:44:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:44:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005601d616b5$4ccbe1d0$e663a570$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Atheism Hi Stathis, On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:39 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > wrote: Atheist. However, weird conclusions come from the assumption that consciousness is not tied to a biological substrate and can result from computation. >?Do tell us more? Agreed. >?And Great Question, Will, asking everyone about their beliefs in God. Although, how many times has this question been asked and/or answered on this list, alone? And how many more times will someone need to ask this? It'd help amplify they wisdom of the crowd on this topic, and stop all the useless repetition, if everyone would just canonize their views, once and for all, someplace like here . Brent Views change. Mine have. I am intrigued by Stathis? notion that weird conclusions come from the assumption that consciousness is not tied to a bio-substrate. I can?t think of any reason to believe it has to exist only in that form. We haven?t seen it in nature, but for 99.9999 percent of the history of life on earth, we didn?t see flight in any substrate other than biological either. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 02:37:13 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:37:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: <003b01d616b4$35a505a0$a0ef10e0$@rainier66.com> References: <003b01d616b4$35a505a0$a0ef10e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Dylan: never too late! I believe it is the most rational position to take as a scientist. William: I too am a naturalist. I believe in physics, and by extension, consciousness. This is all that is required, in my opinion, for rational pantheism. It is extremely illogical and unscientific to believe that consciousness somehow stops outside a single human brain, just like it would be similarly illogical to believe that consciousness stopped outside a single brain hemisphere. Materialism is needed, in my opinion, to validate by belief in God. It provides a consistently similar-acting substrate whereby conclusions regarding my own consciousness can be rationally extended to things beyond myself. In essence: 1. I am conscious 2. I am material 3. I am made of disparate parts forming a larger system of information movement and exchange 4. I am a disparate part forming a larger system of information movement and exchange 5a. Information is moved or exchanged in all events taking place in the universe 5b. The universe is material 6. The universe is conscious I believe the China brain is conscious. But I also have relaxed the restrictions and boundaries of such a system widely enough to encompass the universe and whatever is beyond. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 22:23 spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Atheism > > > > >?Athiest, although I'd rather be a pantheist! > > That does kinda sound like fun, but it leads to a good question: if one > would rather be something else, a different faith, does one really have a > choice? If one sees clear evidence of evolution for instance, but one?s > belief system says no evolution, but one likes his belief system as is, > does it come crashing down anyway? Can we choose what we believe? > > Does it depend on the person? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 02:42:27 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:42:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 12:11 Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The opinions of atheists are not convictions. They are evidence-based > opinions. > You have evidence that there is no God? Please let me know > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 02:43:21 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:43:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: P.S. Russell's teapot doesn't count On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 22:42 Will Steinberg wrote: > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 12:11 Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The opinions of atheists are not convictions. They are evidence-based >> opinions. >> > > You have evidence that there is no God? Please let me know > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 03:02:13 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 03:02:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <982392158.2171742.1587351733512@mail.yahoo.com> I think this is a wonderful argument. I really appreciate the way you guys precisely laid out the assumptions you were making as well as alternatives. The MTA has come a long way over the years in really nailing down their doctrine. Are we the first, or are we the flame that gets passed from torch to torch? Regardless, I am impressed with you guys. :-) Stuart LaForge On Sunday, April 19, 2020, 07:03:51 PM PDT, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote: Hi Ben, On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:11 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >?? > > ?The opinions of atheists are not convictions. They are evidence-based opinions. Not for those of us in the? in?the "hope based atheist opinion" camp.? As I indicated on the other related thread that spawned all this repetitive?discussion, Mormon Transhumanist (non atheists) have their "New God Argument"? which is basically the same argument?that we are in a simulation. This argument is devastating?to my hope that Gods don't have to hide.? It forces me to accept that there is a good chance that we are in a simulation (and that there is a creator of that simulation, hiding from us).? But, I can also rationally point out that there is a small possibility?that we may be the first, or something like that.? So, for me, this evidence based most likely possibility that we are in a simulation is overridden?by my faith and hope that we are not. Brent Allsop ? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 03:06:40 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:06:40 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 11:10, Brent Allsop wrote: > > Hi Stathis, > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:39 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Atheist. However, weird conclusions come from the assumption that >> consciousness is not tied to a biological substrate and can result from >> computation. >> > > Do tell us more. > Any physical process can be interpreted as a Turing machine implementing a particular computation. Generally this can be dismissed as true but trivial, like the assertion that a block of marble contains every possible statue: only computations that are recognisable as such because they are implemented on machines that can interact with their environment need be taken seriously. However, if we allow that computations can give rise to self-awareness, the requirement that they interact with their environment can be ignored, since we can consider a virtual environment with self-aware inhabitants forever isolated from the substrate of its implementation. Therefore, every possible conscious computation necessarily exists, without anyone deliberately programming it. This conclusion has been used by some philosophers, such as Hilary Putnam and John Searle, as a reductio ad absurdum against computationalism, but I don't see why it should be so, and any alternative to computationalism is even more absurd. Stathis Papaioannou Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 03:19:37 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:19:37 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 11:43, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Said conclusions are why I switched. I think it's illogical to believe > that two hemispheres of a brain can form a consciousness, but not two > brains. > > To look at it another way, does one consider their brain themself? What > about brain cells necessary for computation but not making the computations > themselves? What about further reaches of the nervous system that exchange > information with the brain? What about the rest of the body, like your > arm? What about a controllable prosthetic arm? What about a hammer you > hold in it? What about a diary you store memories in? What about your > online presence? What about another brain you have given and exchanged > information with? What about your house and all the ways you have modified > it to suit you? What about everything you cause? What about everything > that causes you? > > I don't think there is a rational end to this slippery slope. Ergo, God. > > In my opinion, simulation arguments are also equivalent to theism. I > consider simulationists to have very similar viewpoints to my own--perhaps > they are even stricter theists, because I don't believe in divine > intervention unless we are in a simulation. > > Even if we are in a simulation, our masters are probably in one too, no? > The idea of a God allows for infinitely recurring simulations. > If the corpus callosum were cut and the hemispheres of my brain somehow transferred to different bodies then the two bodies would consider themselves different people, albeit sharing some memories. On the other hand, if my brain could somehow be merged with another person's we would consider ourselves as one. If I had a neural implant I would also accept that as part of me, as I have accepted the changes in my brain as i have developed as part of me. The sense of self has no objective basis, but is a contingent fact about human psychology. -- Stathis Papaioannou Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 03:27:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:27:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <00fe01d616c3$999438b0$ccbcaa10$@rainier66.com> The form of atheism that holds that consciousness is not substrate-dependent has consequences. For instance? Suppose we accept the notion of uploading in some future super-computer, perhaps in the form of an M-brain but not necessarily that far future. Imagine we get quantum computing with a breakthrough currently unforeseen and end up with the ability to experience something that feels like our current consciousness, along with memories of stuff we did. It is kind of an idealized version of the nanotech dream, coupled with cryonics. Now you find yourself a coupla hundred years future, as Hawking did in Star Trek TNG, in the holodeck. His avatar interacts with people and learns, so imagine yours does. OK then. Sooner or later you realize that by the time you perished, say 2050, most things were recorded in some form and stored in the cloud since memory was too cheap to meter, so you realize you can attend your own funeral. Hey cool, you get to see who was weeping and who was high-fiving and so forth. So you look it up, find nobody showed. Father McKinsey, the guy who specialized in lonely nobody?s funerals such as Eleanor Rigby?s did the service. No one else showed up. Wouldn?t that suck? So? imagine you believe in the form of atheism that needs its own name, the one that believes consciousness can exist in alternate substrates. Substrate Independent consciousness atheism. Call it subind atheism. Observer that plenty of religions promote themselves by claiming that believing in that can make you a better person. OK. Subind atheism will make you a better person, for it would theoretically allow you to go virtually to your own funeral. If you were an evil bastard during your carbon-phase life, it?s Father McKinsey and no one else, with Beatles songs about all the lonely people. But if you were a good person, there will be dozens of mourners weeping and saying good stuff about you, which would be gratifying indeed. Clearly this is a motive for a subind atheist to be a good person, making it equal in a sense to other religions, even if one wishes to argue that subind atheism is not a religion. It is religion-like, at least in that sense: it provides a motive for being a good person. In any case, as soon as I realized that, I gave up being an evil bastard. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 03:52:54 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:52:54 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Given the binary choice atheist/believer I call myself a believer. In more detail, panentheism comes close to my ideas. And Mormon transhumanism. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:51 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > What are y'all? > > I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my beliefs on consciousness. I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe not? I know Stathis is something trippy too. Just wondering > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 04:04:41 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 04:04:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <157497837.2197541.1587355481130@mail.yahoo.com> Two or more brains can form something like a shared consciousness but only under special conditions. The brains have to be in phase with one another. Two brains that are out phase can cancel each other's efforts. So long as there is conflict above a certain threshold, the whole of the universe cannot be conscious. But it can be omniscient because it is unitary under quantum mechanics. The universe is naught but flux and vibration until it collides with a conscious mind. The universe cannot be conscious and in superposition both. Stuart LaForge On Sunday, April 19, 2020, 06:42:46 PM PDT, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: Said conclusions are why I switched.? I think it's illogical to believe that two hemispheres of a brain can form a consciousness, but not two brains. To look at it another way, does one consider their brain themself?? What about brain cells necessary for computation but not making the computations themselves?? What about further reaches of the nervous system that exchange information with the brain?? What about the rest of the body, like your arm?? What about a controllable prosthetic arm?? What about a hammer you hold in it?? What about a diary you store memories in?? What about your online presence?? What about another brain you have given and exchanged information with?? What about your house and all the ways you have modified it to suit you?? What about everything you cause?? What about everything that causes you??? I don't think there is a rational end to this slippery slope.? Ergo, God. In my opinion, simulation arguments are also equivalent to theism.? I consider simulationists to have very similar viewpoints to my own--perhaps they are even stricter theists, because I don't believe in divine intervention unless we are in a simulation. Even if we are in a simulation, our masters are probably in one too, no?? The idea of a God allows for infinitely recurring simulations. On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 20:39 Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 at 09:51, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> What are y'all? >> >> I am somewhere in the Deist/Pantheist/Panentheist realm, stemming from my beliefs on consciousness.? I always assume you're mostly atheists but maybe not?? I know Stathis is something trippy too.? Just wondering > > Atheist. However, weird conclusions come from the assumption that consciousness is not tied to a biological substrate and can result from computation. >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hibbard at wisc.edu Mon Apr 20 07:08:31 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:08:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Atheism Message-ID: Will Steinberg wrote: > What are y'all? Science is the source of statements of fact about the world and religion is just feelings, which are not the source of statements of fact about the world. When I was a kid I would lie in bed and wonder why there was anything. It seemed to me so much more natural that there should just be nothing, no time, no space, just nothing. That there was anything seemed so improbable. These feelings were very intense - they freaked me right out. They were my true religion: awe and wonder at the "miracle" of existence, and gratitude to be alive and able to perceive existence. What I heard in Episcopal church and Sunday school seemed to have no bearing. No doubt primitive people shared my intense feelings but at some point made the error of using these feelings as the source of statements of fact about the world. Perhaps this error was made in service of the great scam where one person (e.g., priest) claims to represent "god" to other people. The religion scam was useful for organizing and controlling social groups of humans, and hence the scam flourished. I also have strong feelings about not inflicting suffering. It is natural that these feelings get mixed up with religous feelings and are no doubt the source of religous morality. And of course religous morality is useful for promoting the religion scam. So I see the question "Is there a god?" as a category error. It is looking for a statement of fact in a category that does not include statements of fact. From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 09:02:43 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:02:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:52 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What are y'all? > ### Polytheist. Multiple gods exist, at least a countable infinity of them but most likely well over 10e10 light years from us. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 09:41:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:41:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:57 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >* P.S. Russell's teapot doesn't count* > Why not? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 09:57:09 2020 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:57:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was very fortunate if I were to tell you the story you would get a giggle. when Stephen Hawking's book the history of everything came out I was in Princeton New Jersey for one reason or another. I got a copy of his book and I read about a dozen pages and it was going to be work and it was over my head but I really wanted to know what was going on so I took myself across the street to the public library there in downtown Princeton. I walked up to the information desk and I asked if they had a young adult version of Stephen Hawking's book. Much to my surprise she stepped from behind the desk and took me downstairs and walked right over to the little thin volume and handed it to me. At that moment all those years ago I said like a Little dream not even a wish just a girly thought like wow! I thought I would love to thank Stephen Hawking for caring so much to make sure that this came out so that many generations all sorts of people could understand his work. and there I was with all of his physics friends from all over because he was going to present his two black holes colliding finished work he had a PowerPoint and everything which I have taken some photographs of I have on my phone if somebody wants to do it I don't I didn't organize my pictures well enough. And my first thing that I wanted to say to Stephen Hawking was a little Princeton story and how to light it I was and he looked up at me with his nice with such gratitude but I didn't try to be somebody else that I could tell him that I really enjoyed the young adult version and it was a just such a gift. I'm part of why he was in California was to make a plan for which movie making or television group wood be trusted with passing his work on two young people and too interested adults who are not scientific to try and let as many people follow the new way of thinking. My plus-one friend took pictures so somewhere there pictures of me with Stephen Hawking a few in 2012. It was one of the Great moments of my life and I've had so many opportunities to me and talk to people in a casual setting I've been very fortunate. Thank you for being interested in my little story about adjust a really great man just standing next to him was such a pleasure he had so little arrogance. I don't know when I'll speak again but I want to thank you so much for allowing me to be here and to follow along and your wonderful inspirational threads yeah On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 7:16 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Hi Ilsa, > Good to hear these wonderful comments from you. > Wow, you've had such an interesting conversation with Stephen Hawking? > That gives you as at least as much credibility as those of us who went out > to lunch with Elon Musk, back at the 2001 extropy conference, before he > sold PayPall. > Looking forward to hearing more. > Brent > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:13 PM ilsa via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I read all the time but I rarely communicate but I want to say hello at >> this invitation. >> >> In my conversation with Stephen Hawking in 2012. I've come to >> understand that faith is a non-material path to Infiniti, the way that >> education leads to a path, and can be described, but I'm not going to do >> it. I'm just saying it's probably in the young adult version of Stephen >> Hawking's seminal book. >> >> With delight to be feeding my mind with your lovely conversations over >> the last 15 plus years. >> >> Respect and gratitude, ilsa >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 4:49 PM Jose Cordeiro via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Dear Spike and ExI friends, >>> >>> How are you doing? I am not a regular writer here, but I do try to >>> read most messages since there are excellent contributions, and some people >>> here that I admire and follow from many years! >>> >>> How many participants are there in the list now? I imagine most are >>> like me, who do not participate actively? >>> >>> By the way, I am planning to organize the next TransVision >>> conference in Madrid, during October 16-18, or later depending on the >>> pandemic, and I would like to invite you all to come. It will be safe, fun, >>> educational, and immortal, so kindly share with others too, and let me know >>> if you can participate, please: https://www.transvisionmadrid.com/ >>> >>> Finally, let me share with you my interview/article/profile in the >>> latest issue of the Alcor Cryonics magazine, I hope that you have a few >>> minutes to take a look and comment: Cryonics Magazine 2019 >>> >>> >>> Cryonics Magazine 2019 >>> >>> >>> >>> Best of luck, keep safe, wash your hands, and welcome to Spain >>> after the pandemic... >>> >>> Futuristically yours, >>> >>> La vie est belle! >>> >>> Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD (www.cordeiro.org) >>> >>> >>> On Friday, April 17, 2020, 09:48:44 PM GMT+2, spike jones via >>> extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> With the recent surge in chatter here, and since there aren?t that many >>> of us left, I propose relaxing guidelines on number of posts per day. We >>> instituted that back in the 90s when there were a coupla hundred regular >>> posters. Now it is down to the usual suspects, about a dozen. I propose >>> we all just post away. >>> >>> >>> >>> Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 >>> exposure than we previously thought. My doctor contacted and wants me to >>> come in for testing when the quarantine is over. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA >>> >>> >>> >>> I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know >>> what it was. I landed in the hospital. It was most unpleasant, but >>> afterwards I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid. I >>> assumed it was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of >>> magnitude. >>> >>> >>> >>> We have a lot of regular travelers to and from China in the area. In >>> retrospect, it is very possible that I had Covid-19. It took me four weeks >>> to feel better, and about seven weeks before I really felt completely back >>> to normal. If so, it would agree with what Stanford U found. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 12:19:38 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 06:19:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] How many current members of ExI? In-Reply-To: References: <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166119479.2495842.1587166944942@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Elsa, Wow, what a great story. Do you have any of those pictures? I would love to hear more about your beliefs. What do you think we are, where is humanity likely going in the near and long term future, after we die and all that? Thanks Brent. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 3:58 AM ilsa via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I was very fortunate if I were to tell you the story you would get a > giggle. > when Stephen Hawking's book the history of everything came out I was in > Princeton New Jersey for one reason or another. > I got a copy of his book and I read about a dozen pages and it was going > to be work and it was over my head but I really wanted to know what was > going on so I took myself across the street to the public library there in > downtown Princeton. I walked up to the information desk and I asked if they > had a young adult version of Stephen Hawking's book. Much to my surprise > she stepped from behind the desk and took me downstairs and walked right > over to the little thin volume and handed it to me. > At that moment all those years ago I said like a Little dream not even a > wish just a girly thought like wow! > I thought I would love to thank Stephen Hawking for caring so much to make > sure that this came out so that many generations all sorts of people could > understand his work. and there I was with all of his physics friends from > all over because he was going to present his two black holes colliding > finished work he had a PowerPoint and everything which I have taken some > photographs of I have on my phone if somebody wants to do it I don't I > didn't organize my pictures well enough. > > And my first thing that I wanted to say to Stephen Hawking was a little > Princeton story and how to light it I was and he looked up at me with his > nice with such gratitude but I didn't try to be somebody else that I could > tell him that I really enjoyed the young adult version and it was a just > such a gift. > > I'm part of why he was in California was to make a plan for which movie > making or television group wood be trusted with passing his work on two > young people and too interested adults who are not scientific to try and > let as many people follow the new way of thinking. > > My plus-one friend took pictures so somewhere there pictures of me with > Stephen Hawking a few in 2012. It was one of the Great moments of my life > and I've had so many opportunities to me and talk to people in a casual > setting I've been very fortunate. > > Thank you for being interested in my little story about adjust a really > great man just standing next to him was such a pleasure he had so little > arrogance. > I don't know when I'll speak again but I want to thank you so much for > allowing me to be here and to follow along and your wonderful inspirational > threads yeah > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 7:16 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Hi Ilsa, >> Good to hear these wonderful comments from you. >> Wow, you've had such an interesting conversation with Stephen Hawking? >> That gives you as at least as much credibility as those of us who went out >> to lunch with Elon Musk, back at the 2001 extropy conference, before he >> sold PayPall. >> Looking forward to hearing more. >> Brent >> >> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:13 PM ilsa via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I read all the time but I rarely communicate but I want to say hello at >>> this invitation. >>> >>> In my conversation with Stephen Hawking in 2012. I've come to >>> understand that faith is a non-material path to Infiniti, the way that >>> education leads to a path, and can be described, but I'm not going to do >>> it. I'm just saying it's probably in the young adult version of Stephen >>> Hawking's seminal book. >>> >>> With delight to be feeding my mind with your lovely conversations over >>> the last 15 plus years. >>> >>> Respect and gratitude, ilsa >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020, 4:49 PM Jose Cordeiro via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Spike and ExI friends, >>>> >>>> How are you doing? I am not a regular writer here, but I do try to >>>> read most messages since there are excellent contributions, and some people >>>> here that I admire and follow from many years! >>>> >>>> How many participants are there in the list now? I imagine most >>>> are like me, who do not participate actively? >>>> >>>> By the way, I am planning to organize the next TransVision >>>> conference in Madrid, during October 16-18, or later depending on the >>>> pandemic, and I would like to invite you all to come. It will be safe, fun, >>>> educational, and immortal, so kindly share with others too, and let me know >>>> if you can participate, please: https://www.transvisionmadrid.com/ >>>> >>>> Finally, let me share with you my interview/article/profile in the >>>> latest issue of the Alcor Cryonics magazine, I hope that you have a few >>>> minutes to take a look and comment: Cryonics Magazine 2019 >>>> >>>> >>>> Cryonics Magazine 2019 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best of luck, keep safe, wash your hands, and welcome to Spain >>>> after the pandemic... >>>> >>>> Futuristically yours, >>>> >>>> La vie est belle! >>>> >>>> Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD (www.cordeiro.org) >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, April 17, 2020, 09:48:44 PM GMT+2, spike jones via >>>> extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> With the recent surge in chatter here, and since there aren?t that many >>>> of us left, I propose relaxing guidelines on number of posts per day. We >>>> instituted that back in the 90s when there were a coupla hundred regular >>>> posters. Now it is down to the usual suspects, about a dozen. I propose >>>> we all just post away. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Stanford did a study which suggests there is waaaay more Covid-19 >>>> exposure than we previously thought. My doctor contacted and wants me to >>>> come in for testing when the quarantine is over. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=be77753b5f9c509cb865d14fbdaf97eeb78e11d5-1587139595-0-AWIUFx6wN0uXOvkl2GvKJJc-Ig8sPLjxRzO454lTi9KpWYjKbxnVGQzEHGD9bYZUKYUUOdrfRQ_wQREzNDVmpdEWVIZYt6UTI9m_LD7byikYQA-loXE677ZRO1gHfKAz7mccB9JD5q3Y8YVehLtYCxNulZzxgq75-rzgoHZ2Heyj5PDAftyTcJ9j-gS_9XvqhP1w_lcrCrvVy9EM4vDfOYSqAiDYODT4O2PXN776dtAuibDok5gMCdzZYcCoRi69cdjoFoqV7X4-dhUOTFhjUA5EzGIOpkN7fsqrkufnBv0pOXqb3nOUoVRFDs5ZdBzO9w_yicdwyhIdvht3lBZyMgA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was very sick in December with viral pneumonia and they didn?t know >>>> what it was. I landed in the hospital. It was most unpleasant, but >>>> afterwards I self-quarantined, a long time before anyone heard of Covid. I >>>> assumed it was the worst damn flu I have ever had by an order of >>>> magnitude. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have a lot of regular travelers to and from China in the area. In >>>> retrospect, it is very possible that I had Covid-19. It took me four weeks >>>> to feel better, and about seven weeks before I really felt completely back >>>> to normal. If so, it would agree with what Stanford U found. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> spike >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 13:33:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:33:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> ### The press is mostly left-wing, which usually means authoritarian and > they followed that impulse when they wholeheartedly supported the recent > mass house arrests. Now they experience powerful cognitive dissonance when > they see reports that imply the justification for lockdowns, "flattening > the curve", was very misguided. So they attack the country that didn't join > in the stampede into mass incarceration and showed us a better way. * > Since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the USA, beating cancer and stroke and heart disease and everything else. Stampedes are not always a bad thing, it seems to me the prospect of mass death would be a very good reason to start a mass stampede. COVID-19 is now the leading cause of death in the United States John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 13:48:44 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:48:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure why I continue to bite, but I can't help myself. How are you defining mass death? The numbers, while tragic, are still within the range of a bad flu season in the US and growth is slowing. Sweden seems the only sane nation to me right now. The impact of this outbreak does not warrant potentially sending the entire global economy into a severe depression. Are you aware of the fact that they have pretty much run out of storage for oil as of this morning? On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 9:35 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> ### The press is mostly left-wing, which usually means authoritarian >> and they followed that impulse when they wholeheartedly supported the >> recent mass house arrests. Now they experience powerful cognitive >> dissonance when they see reports that imply the justification for >> lockdowns, "flattening the curve", was very misguided. So they attack the >> country that didn't join in the stampede into mass incarceration and showed >> us a better way. * >> > > Since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the USA, > beating cancer and stroke and heart disease and everything else. Stampedes > are not always a bad thing, it seems to me the prospect of mass death would > be a very good reason to start a mass stampede. > > COVID-19 is now the leading cause of death in the United States > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 14:54:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:54:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 9:51 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> How are you defining mass death? * > How are you defining "define"? I think the leading cause of death is pretty massive but that's just me. > > *The numbers, while tragic, are still within the range of a bad flu* > If it's the leading cause of death in the USA then it's a bad flu indeed! > and growth is slowing And in 1918 things started to get bad in March but started to get better in late April and by summer it was almost gone, but not quite. It came back far stronger than before in early September and it was the next 3 months when the real mega death happened. I'm not saying the same thing is going to happen in 2020 but I don't want to bet my life that it won't. It sounds to me like you want to play Russian Roulette. *> Sweden seems the only sane nation to me right now.* > And the result of all that sanity is that Sweden has had far more deaths from COVID-19 than any of its scandinavian neighbors that insanely took the quarantine very seriously. In Sweden 1580 have died, In Denmark 364 have died, in Norway 168, and in Finland just 94. If insanity works better than sanity I'll take insanity. > *> Are you aware of the fact that they have pretty much run out of storage > for oil as of this morning? * > I'll tell you exactly what I'm aware of this morning at 9:15 AM EDT: *"Oil suffered its biggest one-day price plunge in the modern era, at one point crashing about 40% to below $11 a barrel as traders contended with an historic glut. There is no limit to the downside to prices when inventories and pipelines are full. Buyers in Texas are offering as little as $2 a barrel for some oil streams, raising the possibility that producers may soon have to pay to have crude taken off their hands."* Oil Plunges by Record to Below $11 With Storage Rapidly Filling And this morning I'm also aware that: *"Oil demand is set to fall some 30% from last year. At least 160 million barrels in unwanted crude are floating on tankers around the world"* U.S. Oil Prices Crash To 20-Year Lows As Coronavirus Crushes Demand and Storage Facilities Swell John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 14:56:21 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:56:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 05:43 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:57 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >* P.S. Russell's teapot doesn't count* >> > > Why not? > Because it makes an assumption that it does not attempt to prove--that believing in God is as ridiculous as believing in the teapot. It uses the most ridiculous forms of belief in God, man-in-the-sky stuff, to paint over all belief with a broad brush. I believe that God is a rational deduction which only requires materialism and the experience of one's own consciousness. So for me it is atheism--which has NO logical grounding--that is more crazy and more rooted in faith. Agnosticism is more palatable because I won't fault anyone for having no belief. But it is still true in my eyes that any scientist should rationally believe in substrate independent consciousness (unless they are a vitalist scientist from the 1700s.) So to me--with all due* respect--you are the fool. *You may deduce for yourself how much may be due ;) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 15:10:06 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:10:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:56 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 9:51 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> How are you defining mass death? * >> > > How are you defining "define"? I think the leading cause of death is > pretty massive but that's just me. > > >> > *The numbers, while tragic, are still within the range of a bad flu* >> > > If it's the leading cause of death in the USA then it's a bad flu indeed! > There's a new bug, it's killing almost entirely well defined high risk populations. The IFR is likely way lower than originally thought. This is not the black death or small pox. Again, I'm not attempting to trivialize anyone's personal loss, but decisions need to be made for the entire population here. > > > and growth is slowing > > > And in 1918 things started to get bad in March but started to get better > in late April and by summer it was almost gone, but not quite. It came back > far stronger than before in early September and it was the next 3 months > when the real mega death happened. I'm not saying the same thing is going > to happen in 2020 but I don't want to bet my life that it won't. It sounds > to me like you want to play Russian Roulette. > > *> Sweden seems the only sane nation to me right now.* >> > > And the result of all that sanity is that Sweden has had far more deaths > from COVID-19 than any of its scandinavian neighbors that insanely took the > quarantine very seriously. In Sweden 1580 have died, In Denmark 364 have > died, in Norway 168, and in Finland just 94. If insanity works better than > sanity I'll take insanity. > 1,580 people have died, and their economy for the most part is still open. They're recommending common sense social distancing. If that's Russian Roulette, yes, I'd like to play Russian Roulette. What is your end game here, John, if you were running the show? There is a real possibility that there will not be an effective vaccine developed for this. So then what, we're going to live like scared animals for the rest of our lives until the economy completely implodes, and you end up potentially getting killed by someone in the societal breakdown? All over an illness that probably has a maximum IFR of 1% (and BTW, I think it's closer to .3% but I will give you 1% for the sake of argument)? Please do tell, what should we be doing here? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Apr 20 15:38:02 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:38:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> On 19/04/2020 19:46, billw wrote: > Empiricism is science and its methods and belief has no place in it.? > We don't believe in Darwin's ideas:? we follow them because they are > the best at predicting and explaining phenomena we study.? Empirical > facts like the finches. > > There is no way a person who is basically an empiricist and another > who uses authoritarianism and intuition, to have a debate.? They are > accepting things based on entirely different criteria and so are > talking at cross purposes. Thank you, bill w, for putting much more clearly and concisely than I've been able to do, why religion and transhumanism are not compatible. This doesn't mean that a religious person can't also be a transhumanist, or vice-versa, but just as with the civil engineer that Spike was talking about, they are going to have two incompatible world-views going on (assuming that 'religious' and 'transhumanist' keep their normal meanings, as I've discussed before), and just like Spike, I can't really imagine what kind of mental gymnastics you'd have to go through to sustain that and not go crazy. In fact, I suspect that 'crazy' is really the only sensible way to describe such a person. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Apr 20 15:46:59 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:46:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52fa2f5f-8ff3-17e9-a071-7b5e5f5d4992@zaiboc.net> On 19/04/2020 19:46, Guilio Prisco wrote: > Just happens *physically* > > On 2020. Apr 19., Sun at 14:05, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On 19/04/2020 00:53, Spike wrote: > > Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person > perishes, > > they are on hold, no conscious existence in any form. They exist as > > stored data until they are re-assembled at a later time. > > I'm curious, Spike: Where or in what form what do they think this > stored > data is? I'm presuming this is not thought to require any particular > actions on behalf of the person in question (apart, possibly, from > membership of the SDA), but just happens magically? > OK, but that doesn't answer my question. How does it happen? What is the mechanism, what is the medium? Where is the information stored? If the answer is "We don't know", "We don't know", "We don't know", and "We don't know, but we think it's true anyway", I'd call that magical thinking. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 15:56:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:56:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c401d6172c$33b46ab0$9b1d4010$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] shops opening >? The numbers, while tragic, are still within the range of a bad flu season in the US and growth is slowing? Dylan Hi Dylan, The range of numbers should be telling us something important. I used to travel to New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Jersey a lot for business. The biggest difference in those states is they all use mass transit a lot and their cities are very tightly packed, even more so than western US cities generally. I don?t know about Louisiana, never went there on business or for any other reason. I don?t know why their numbers are so high. Mardi Gras? When the quarantine started last month, they wanted people to stay home, but public transit continued. The three states I know about all kept their public transit going while packing people into homes. It could be that the strategy is wrong: they shoulda stopped mass transit and encouraged people to get out of homes where a new risk is one resident can infect all the residents, as we are seeing in nursing homes. These numbers are stunning: Reported cases and deaths The figures below are based on data from the Johns Hopkins University Center for Systems Science and Engineering. These numbers are updated every 15 minutes but may differ from other sources due to differences in reporting times. For up-to-the-minute updates, follow our live coverage. Cases ?per 100K residents Deaths ?per 100K residents New York 248,431 1,277 18,298 94 New Jersey 85,301 960 4,362 49 Massachusetts 38,077 552 1,706 25 Pennsylvania 32,991 258 1,276 10 California 31,531 80 1,180 3 Michigan 31,424 315 2,391 24 Illinois 30,357 240 1,290 10 Florida 26,314 123 774 4 Louisiana 23,928 515 1,296 28 Texas 19,411 67 500 2 Georgia 18,489 174 689 6 Connecticut 17,962 504 1,127 32 Maryland 12,847 212 461 8 Washington 12,025 158 634 8 Ohio 11,602 99 471 4 Indiana 11,211 167 562 8 Colorado 9,730 169 420 7 Virginia 8,669 102 277 3 Tennessee 7,070 104 148 2 North Carolina 6,621 63 200 2 Missouri 5,807 95 199 3 Arizona 4,933 68 184 3 Alabama 4,923 100 164 3 Rhode Island 4,706 444 150 14 South Carolina 4,377 85 120 2 Wisconsin 4,346 75 220 4 Mississippi 4,274 144 159 5 Nevada 3,728 121 158 5 Utah 3,069 96 27 < 1 Kentucky 2,960 66 148 3 District of Columbia 2,927 415 105 15 Iowa 2,902 92 75 2 Oklahoma 2,599 66 140 4 Delaware 2,538 261 67 7 Minnesota 2,356 42 134 2 Kansas 1,948 67 95 3 Oregon 1,910 45 74 2 Arkansas 1,853 61 41 1 New Mexico 1,845 88 55 3 Idaho 1,672 94 44 2 South Dakota 1,635 185 7 < 1 Nebraska 1,474 76 28 1 New Hampshire 1,390 102 41 3 Puerto Rico 1,252 39 63 2 West Virginia 890 50 20 1 Maine 867 64 34 3 Vermont 813 130 38 6 North Dakota 585 77 9 1 Hawaii 580 41 10 < 1 Montana 433 41 10 < 1 Alaska 319 44 9 1 Wyoming 313 54 2 < 1 Guam 136 5 US Virgin Islands 53 3 Northern Mariana Islands 14 2 Repatriations 152 0 I am assuming all countries have something analogous to US states, provinces or some means of distributing political power. So they should have numbers like this somewhere, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:21:36 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:21:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: <00c401d6172c$33b46ab0$9b1d4010$@rainier66.com> References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> <00c401d6172c$33b46ab0$9b1d4010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike- A timely piece to your point: The Subways Seeded the Massive Coronavirus Epidemic in New York City Jeffrey E. Harris NBER Working Paper No. 27021 Issued in April 2020 NBER Program(s):Health Economics New York City?s multitentacled subway system was a major disseminator ? if not the principal transmission vehicle ? of coronavirus infection during the initial takeoff of the massive epidemic that became evident throughout the city during March 2020. The near shutoff of subway ridership in Manhattan ? down by over 90 percent at the end of March ? correlates strongly with the substantial increase in the doubling time of new cases in this borough. Maps of subway station turnstile entries, superimposed upon zip code-level maps of reported coronavirus incidence, are strongly consistent with subway-facilitated disease propagation. Local train lines appear to have a higher propensity to transmit infection than express lines. Reciprocal seeding of infection appears to be the best explanation for the emergence of a single hotspot in Midtown West in Manhattan. Bus hubs may have served as secondary transmission routes out to the periphery of the city. https://www.nber.org/papers/w2702 On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] shops opening > > > > >? The numbers, while tragic, are still within the range of a bad flu > season in the US and growth is slowing? Dylan > > > > Hi Dylan, > > > > The range of numbers should be telling us something important. > > > > I used to travel to New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Jersey a > lot for business. The biggest difference in those states is they all use > mass transit a lot and their cities are very tightly packed, even more so > than western US cities generally. I don?t know about Louisiana, never went > there on business or for any other reason. I don?t know why their numbers > are so high. Mardi Gras? > > > > When the quarantine started last month, they wanted people to stay home, > but public transit continued. The three states I know about all kept their > public transit going while packing people into homes. It could be that the > strategy is wrong: they shoulda stopped mass transit and encouraged people > to get out of homes where a new risk is one resident can infect all the > residents, as we are seeing in nursing homes. > > > > These numbers are stunning: > > > > > > *Reported cases and deaths* > > The figures below are based on data from the Johns Hopkins University > Center for Systems Science and Engineering > . These numbers are updated every > 15 minutes but may differ from other sources due to differences in > reporting times. For up-to-the-minute updates, follow our live coverage > . > > *Cases* > > *?per 100K residents* > > *Deaths* > > *?per 100K residents* > > New York > > 248,431 > > 1,277 > > 18,298 > > 94 > > New Jersey > > 85,301 > > 960 > > 4,362 > > 49 > > Massachusetts > > 38,077 > > 552 > > 1,706 > > 25 > > Pennsylvania > > 32,991 > > 258 > > 1,276 > > 10 > > California > > 31,531 > > 80 > > 1,180 > > 3 > > Michigan > > 31,424 > > 315 > > 2,391 > > 24 > > Illinois > > 30,357 > > 240 > > 1,290 > > 10 > > Florida > > 26,314 > > 123 > > 774 > > 4 > > Louisiana > > 23,928 > > 515 > > 1,296 > > 28 > > Texas > > 19,411 > > 67 > > 500 > > 2 > > Georgia > > 18,489 > > 174 > > 689 > > 6 > > Connecticut > > 17,962 > > 504 > > 1,127 > > 32 > > Maryland > > 12,847 > > 212 > > 461 > > 8 > > Washington > > 12,025 > > 158 > > 634 > > 8 > > Ohio > > 11,602 > > 99 > > 471 > > 4 > > Indiana > > 11,211 > > 167 > > 562 > > 8 > > Colorado > > 9,730 > > 169 > > 420 > > 7 > > Virginia > > 8,669 > > 102 > > 277 > > 3 > > Tennessee > > 7,070 > > 104 > > 148 > > 2 > > North Carolina > > 6,621 > > 63 > > 200 > > 2 > > Missouri > > 5,807 > > 95 > > 199 > > 3 > > Arizona > > 4,933 > > 68 > > 184 > > 3 > > Alabama > > 4,923 > > 100 > > 164 > > 3 > > Rhode Island > > 4,706 > > 444 > > 150 > > 14 > > South Carolina > > 4,377 > > 85 > > 120 > > 2 > > Wisconsin > > 4,346 > > 75 > > 220 > > 4 > > Mississippi > > 4,274 > > 144 > > 159 > > 5 > > Nevada > > 3,728 > > 121 > > 158 > > 5 > > Utah > > 3,069 > > 96 > > 27 > > < 1 > > Kentucky > > 2,960 > > 66 > > 148 > > 3 > > District of Columbia > > 2,927 > > 415 > > 105 > > 15 > > Iowa > > 2,902 > > 92 > > 75 > > 2 > > Oklahoma > > 2,599 > > 66 > > 140 > > 4 > > Delaware > > 2,538 > > 261 > > 67 > > 7 > > Minnesota > > 2,356 > > 42 > > 134 > > 2 > > Kansas > > 1,948 > > 67 > > 95 > > 3 > > Oregon > > 1,910 > > 45 > > 74 > > 2 > > Arkansas > > 1,853 > > 61 > > 41 > > 1 > > New Mexico > > 1,845 > > 88 > > 55 > > 3 > > Idaho > > 1,672 > > 94 > > 44 > > 2 > > South Dakota > > 1,635 > > 185 > > 7 > > < 1 > > Nebraska > > 1,474 > > 76 > > 28 > > 1 > > New Hampshire > > 1,390 > > 102 > > 41 > > 3 > > Puerto Rico > > 1,252 > > 39 > > 63 > > 2 > > West Virginia > > 890 > > 50 > > 20 > > 1 > > Maine > > 867 > > 64 > > 34 > > 3 > > Vermont > > 813 > > 130 > > 38 > > 6 > > North Dakota > > 585 > > 77 > > 9 > > 1 > > Hawaii > > 580 > > 41 > > 10 > > < 1 > > Montana > > 433 > > 41 > > 10 > > < 1 > > Alaska > > 319 > > 44 > > 9 > > 1 > > Wyoming > > 313 > > 54 > > 2 > > < 1 > > Guam > > 136 > > 5 > > US Virgin Islands > > 53 > > 3 > > Northern Mariana Islands > > 14 > > 2 > > Repatriations > > 152 > > 0 > > > > > > I am assuming all countries have something analogous to US states, > provinces or some means of distributing political power. So they should > have numbers like this somewhere, ja? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 16:23:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:23:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: <52fa2f5f-8ff3-17e9-a071-7b5e5f5d4992@zaiboc.net> References: <52fa2f5f-8ff3-17e9-a071-7b5e5f5d4992@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <00f301d61730$02166720$06433560$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat On 2020. Apr 19., Sun at 14:05, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > wrote: > .I'm curious, Spike: Where or in what form what do they think this stored data is? . just happens magically? OK, but that doesn't answer my question. How does it happen? What is the mechanism, what is the medium? Where is the information stored? If the answer is "We don't know", "We don't know", "We don't know", and "We don't know, but we think it's true anyway", I'd call that magical thinking. Ben -- Ben Zaiboc Ja of course. That's the nature of faith: believing some things are true even if you don't understand how it works or why it works. That's where I am with the notion of substrate independent consciousness. We can see that consciousness (as we define it) exists in a known hydrocarbon substrate. We know that the brain is a machine, made of matter, operating on chemical reactions. So consciousness can clearly exist in a machine. It can still operate with mechanical devices and interfaces (a cochlear implant for instance.) I don't know how the hell those things work or how consciousness works, but I can see that it does already in a machines, and I can see that implants have gotten better over the years, and in a sense consciousness has gotten better over time (because our brains have evolved to do all the cool stuff we do with consciousness.) All this leads me to have faith that since consciousness can exists in a machine it can theoretically exist in some other substrate besides hydrocarbon. I can't prove that. But believe it is true. I am nowhere near a proof or even compelling handwavy reason to claim that it cannot exist in an alternate substrate. So. I think it can. I think it will eventually be discovered. I hope it will. That hope is what compels me toward cryonics. In that light, then everything transhumanists generally hold makes sense. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:23:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:23:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:14 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> There's a new bug, * > Yes it's new, nobody has seen anything like it before so our knowledge of it is slight. You keep assuming that things are really better than they seem, well maybe so, but maybe things are worse than they seem. > > *The IFR is likely way lower than originally thought. * > And it's likely the virus is way more infectious than originally thought. *> 1,580 people have died, and their economy for the most part is still > open. * > Yes 1,580 people have died in Sweden, and the population of Sweden is 32 times smaller than the population of the USA. And Sweden's death numbers double every 8 days. How long will that rate of doubling continue? Nobody knows because as you say this is a new bug, and in Sweden's case there is the complication that some think extreme cold slows the spread of the virus and Sweden is currently very cold. Summer is coming. > *> What is your end game here, John, if you were running the show? * > If we'd acted aggressively very early in the pandemic as South Korea and Japan did much of this nightmare could have been avoided, but it's too late now. At this late date I have no magical end game solution that does not involve a tragic amount of economic pain and human death, all we can do is try to minimize it the best we can. > *> There is a real possibility that there will not be an effective vaccine > developed for t*his. > I'm not as pessimistic as you are. Given the fact that the virus doesn't mutate much and most people form antibodies and recover I think it's very unlikely that a vaccine can not be found, but if I'm wrong and a prevention or an effective treatment turns out to be as difficult as with cancer then we'd just have to accept a permanent and significant reduction of the human lifespan and of our standard of living. But right now we're a hell of a long way from that point of desperation. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:30:53 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:30:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:06 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I believe that God is a rational deduction which only requires materialism > and the experience of one's own consciousness. > Which isn't what 99.999% of the population means when they say "God". You're welcome to define it however you want, but that's going to cause a lot of confusion. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:39:16 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:39:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] M brains was atheism again Message-ID: wrote: snip > Suppose we accept the notion of uploading in some future super-computer, perhaps in the form of an M-brain but not necessarily that far future. Perry Metzger came up with this idea back in the early days of this list. I wound up with credit for the "Jupiter brains" idea even though my response at the time was to throw cold water on the idea. There are two problems with M-brains (or any large aggregate). First is that being spread out over an AU, they are *slow* due to the speed of light. Second is that computation releases waste heat. Getting rid of waste heat in space is not easy. > Imagine we get quantum computing with a breakthrough currently unforeseen and end up with the ability to experience something that feels like our current consciousness, along with memories of stuff we did. It is kind of an idealized version of the nanotech dream, coupled with cryonics. Anyone who is serious about this should look into the engineering aspects. Keith From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 16:39:45 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:39:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: <52fa2f5f-8ff3-17e9-a071-7b5e5f5d4992@zaiboc.net> References: <52fa2f5f-8ff3-17e9-a071-7b5e5f5d4992@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <2115842325.2354457.1587400785037@mail.yahoo.com> Ben Zaiboc wrote: "OK, but that doesn't answer my question. How does it happen? What is the mechanism, what is the medium? Where is the information stored?" I can't speak for Seventh Day Adventists, but according to string theory, the answers would be: 1. The holographic principle theorizes that all the information about everything that has ever happened within our causal patch of the universe is forever mirrored in two dimensions on the surface of the cosmic horizon. 2. The mechanism is?anti-de Sitter/conformal field theory correspondence. 3. The medium is light or more properly electromagnetic radiation. 4. The information is stored on the event horizon. Watch some of Leonard Susskind's lectures on the topic for more details. Whether that information is accessible to any being(s) with the will and technological wherewithal to resurrect, recreate, or simulate any being(s) from within the causal patch is unknown. Stuart LaForge On 19/04/2020 19:46, Guilio Prisco wrote: >?? >?? > Just happens *physically* > > > > >?? > On 2020. Apr 19., Sun at 14:05, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > >> On 19/04/2020 00:53, Spike wrote: >>> Second thing in SDA: that religion holds that when a person perishes, >>> they are on hold, no conscious existence in any form.? They exist as >>> stored data until they are re-assembled at a later time. >> >> I'm curious, Spike: Where or in what form what do they think this stored >> data is? I'm presuming this is not thought to require any particular >> actions on behalf of the person in question (apart, possibly, from >> membership of the SDA), but just happens magically? >> > > > OK, but that doesn't answer my question. How does it happen? What is the mechanism, what is the medium? Where is the information stored? If the answer is "We don't know", "We don't know", "We don't know", and "We don't know, but we think it's true anyway", I'd call that magical thinking. -- Ben Zaiboc _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 16:43:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:43:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> <00c401d6172c$33b46ab0$9b1d4010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010701d61732$e25a9840$a70fc8c0$@rainier66.com> >>?I used to travel to New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Jersey a lot for business. The biggest difference in those states is they all use mass transit a lot and their cities are very tightly packed? spike > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] shops opening Spike- A timely piece to your point: The Subways Seeded the Massive Coronavirus Epidemic in New York City Jeffrey E. Harris NBER Working Paper No. 27021 Issued in April 2020 NBER Program(s):Health Economics >?New York City?s multitentacled subway system was a major disseminator ? if not the principal transmission vehicle ? of coronavirus infection? Reciprocal seeding of infection appears to be the best explanation for the emergence of a single hotspot in Midtown West in Manhattan. Bus hubs may have served as secondary transmission routes out to the periphery of the city? https://www.nber.org/papers/w2702 Oh Dylan, you don?t want to get me started on this topic. Hmmm, retract, perhaps you do, or if not, I want to get me started enough for both of us. I have recently been involved in a most distasteful experience with urban planners who keep plunking down high-density residential developments which are completely dependent on mass transit. I opposed the hell outta the notion, since always, because it looks to me like it is inherently vulnerable to transit worker strikes. I hadn?t even thought of the contagion angle, but that just adds fuel to my inferno. I can see that dependency on mass transit does bad things to peoples? minds: it causes them to become more dependent and less able to work out the problems associated with maintaining a system (your own car.) It pushes people into face to face with each other, which would make them inherently vulnerable in ways people in their own cars are not. Whether or not this is as dangerous as it feels, I don?t like the notion of being forced into contact with the other proles. It is already so difficult to keep away from the riff raff when one is riff raff oneself. Mass transit is an answer to some urban problems, but I have long held it isn?t necessarily a good answer. Becoming completely dependent on mass transit is a bad answer. Better ones: find more ways people can travel less. Then they would be OK with smaller, lighter, slower cars, which cost less and do less, but are still adequate for promoting a sense of independence and serve as a mobile suit of armor. Besides that? I like cars. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Apr 20 16:47:49 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:47:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Omnitheism (was: Re: Atheism) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/04/2020 10:57, Will Steinberg asked: > What are y'all? I have an atheistic world-view, which stems from being a materialist, so I call myself an atheist. But I also call myself an 'Omnitheist', which is not about religious _faith_, but about _membership_ of religions. An Omnitheist claims membership of (although not belief in) ALL religions, past, present, future, real and imaginary. As an Omnitheist I can call myself a muslim, a zoroastrian, a sock-puppetarian, a pastafarian, a mormon, a wiccan, etc., etc. Absolutely everything. Anyone who wants to become an Omnitheist just needs to read, print out and sign the following declaration, and voila, you are a fully-signed up member of every single religion that does, did, will, could and couldn't exist, with all the associated rights, privileges, obligations (automatically deemed to have been satisfactorily met), the holidays, and so-on. And this is perfectly compatible with atheism, you don't have to believe a thing (if any religion /requires/ that you believe something, that requirement is simply deemed to have been met): =========================================================== OMNITHEIST DECLARATION By the reading and signing of this document, I the undersigned hereby declare, affirm and otherwise state: That I am henceforth a full member of every religion that exists, has ever existed, will exist and could exist, as well as every religion that cannot exist for whatever reason. In the case where membership of any religion requires the performance of a ritual, the utterance of a statement, or any other voluntary action, that action is hereby deemed to have been taken. In the case where membership of any religion requires the explicit permission of an existing authority of that religion, a sect or splinter group of that religion is deemed to have been created which does not require such permission, and membership of such sect or splinter group is hereby asserted, claimed, granted and confirmed. In the case where membership of any religion requires specific or general physical criteria to be met, such as bodily modifications, possession of certain bodily forms, gender, age, weight, etc., or pre-existing membership of some other group, such criteria are deemed to have been met. In the case where membership of any religion requires any other conditions or circumstances, these are deemed to have been satisfied. I hereby assume all the rights, responsibilities, duties and benefits that membership of the above-mentioned religions confers, and deem and certify that all such duties and obligations have been, are and will be carried out in a satisfactory manner. This by the power, assent and indulgence of all the gods, demigods, devils, demons, elemental powers, spirits, sprites, ghosts, any other supernatural or imaginary beings and abstract concepts, past present and future, eternal and transient, real and imaginary, of my own free will, in solemnity and absurdity, in mockery and in reverence, permanently and irrevocably, unless and until I change my mind. Signed: =========================================================== -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 17:00:11 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:00:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:14 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> There's a new bug, * >> > > Yes it's new, nobody has seen anything like it before so our knowledge of > it is slight. You keep assuming that things are really better than they > seem, well maybe so, but maybe things are worse than they seem. > It's not true that we haven't seen anything like it. It appears to be another coronavirus similar to SARS (and thankfully dissimilar to MERS). I'm not assuming anything, I'm looking at a number of data points and preprints and coming up with my best guess like everyone else. I'm not pulling my hypothesis out of thin air or how I want things to be. > > >> >> *> 1,580 people have died, and their economy for the most part is still >> open. * >> > > Yes 1,580 people have died in Sweden, and the population of Sweden is 32 > times smaller than the population of the USA. And Sweden's death numbers > double every 8 days. How long will that rate of doubling continue? Nobody > knows because as you say this is a new bug, and in Sweden's case there is > the complication that some think extreme cold slows the spread of the virus > and Sweden is currently very cold. Summer is coming. > Some people think summer will be good for it dying off. Australia has very few cases of it, yet tons of traffic with Asia and China. I don't believe that Australia has been any more effective at containing it than anywhere else, yet their counts remain very low. > > >> *> What is your end game here, John, if you were running the show? * >> > > I have no magical end game solution that does not involve a tragic amount > of economic pain and human death, all we can do is try to minimize it the > best we can. > Don't you think there needs to be a balance between economic pain and human death? How long are you willing to keep the economy shuttered, particularly in states with very low current counts (likely due to population density). > > >> *> There is a real possibility that there will not be an effective >> vaccine developed for t*his. >> > > I'm not as pessimistic as you are. Given the fact that the virus doesn't > mutate much and most people form antibodies and recover I think it's very > unlikely that a vaccine can not be found, but if I'm wrong and a prevention > or an effective treatment turns out to be as difficult as with cancer then > we'd just have to accept a permanent and significant reduction of the human > lifespan and of our standard of living. But right now we're a hell of a > long way from that point of desperation. > I'm not pessimistic about a vaccine, John, but I'm not optimistic about one either. Coronavirus vaccines are not an easy task even if you assume that there is a stable antigenic target. Prior vaccine attempts have resulted in very nasty inflammatory responses in a subset of those innoculated. I would guess that is going to be a challenge here, and you won't find me personally going near a CV-19 vaccine for quite some time. I certainly won't be first in line to get one, I can tell you that. Either way though, I hope your optimism is warranted, and we get one, but I think economic policy should assume we don't get one, not that we do. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 17:05:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:05:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: > > I believe that God is a rational deduction which only requires materialism > and the experience of one's own consciousness. > Which isn't what 99.999% of the population means when they say "God". You're welcome to define it however you want, but that's going to cause a lot of confusion. -Dave Maybe Will ought to start his own religion. Then he will be forced to explain it to people in ways they can understand. Not likely. bill w On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:55 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:06 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> I believe that God is a rational deduction which only requires >> materialism and the experience of one's own consciousness. >> > > Which isn't what 99.999% of the population means when they say "God". > You're welcome to define it however you want, but that's going to cause a > lot of confusion. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Apr 20 17:07:01 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:07:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7c567b26-b7f3-0bcd-4e08-456377cc4a24@zaiboc.net> It seems to me that all this finger-pointing is a bit pointless, and that the data we have is consistent with the idea that this virus was already pretty widely spread long before anyone (outside China) had any idea it even existed, and that individual responses to it vary very widely, from complete indifference to quick death. -- Ben Zaiboc From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 17:08:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:08:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> References: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Thank you, bill w, for putting much more clearly and concisely than I've been able to do, why religion and transhumanism are not compatible. And thank you, Ben. Thanks are extremely rare in the group (???). I think you cannot get more basic than epistemology. "How do you know?" is the most basic question. I wish school children were taught the ways to answer this. bill w On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:40 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 19/04/2020 19:46, billw wrote: > > Empiricism is science and its methods and belief has no place in it. We > don't believe in Darwin's ideas: we follow them because they are the best > at predicting and explaining phenomena we study. Empirical facts like the > finches. > > There is no way a person who is basically an empiricist and another who > uses authoritarianism and intuition, to have a debate. They are accepting > things based on entirely different criteria and so are talking at cross > purposes. > > > Thank you, bill w, for putting much more clearly and concisely than I've > been able to do, why religion and transhumanism are not compatible. > > This doesn't mean that a religious person can't also be a transhumanist, > or vice-versa, but just as with the civil engineer that Spike was talking > about, they are going to have two incompatible world-views going on > (assuming that 'religious' and 'transhumanist' keep their normal meanings, > as I've discussed before), and just like Spike, I can't really imagine what > kind of mental gymnastics you'd have to go through to sustain that and not > go crazy. In fact, I suspect that 'crazy' is really the only sensible way > to describe such a person. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Apr 20 17:21:55 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:21:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18/04/2020 20:36, Keith Henson wrote: > My work in evolutionary psychology makes me think that building AI > based on human brains is an intolerably dangerous approach. > > Humans have rarely invoked psychological traits such as > capture-bonding and those related to going to war and the perhaps > related trait of being infested with religions. > > A human-based AI that understood a looming resource crisis could go to > war with humans. The idea, as far as I understand, is not to build an AI that is a copy of a human brain, but to learn the principles of operation of human brains and apply them, as appropriate, to building AI. If nothing else, more understanding has to be better than less. The more we understand about how our own brains work, the better position we will be in to understand how to avoid the undesirable aspects. I'm sure the designers of a computer language like Python learned a lot from a language like C, which helped them to make something similar (a programing language), without the undesirable aspects of C. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Apr 20 17:55:08 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:55:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> On 20/04/2020 10:57, Will Steinberg wrote: > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 12:11 Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > The opinions of atheists are not convictions. They are > evidence-based opinions. > > > You have evidence that there is no God?? Please let me know Evidence-based opinions take into account a lack of evidence, as well as its presence. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:07:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:07:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Besides that? I like cars. spike *I can just see Tokyo, London, Shanghai moving from trains and subways to cars. Car parking buildings thousands of feet high........... * * What is the use of financial analysts going to work in downtown NYC. Just to sit in front of a PC? Could all computer work be done from home? Why not? *Does anyone know? *bill w* On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:33 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:14 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> There's a new bug, * >>> >> >> Yes it's new, nobody has seen anything like it before so our knowledge of >> it is slight. You keep assuming that things are really better than they >> seem, well maybe so, but maybe things are worse than they seem. >> > > It's not true that we haven't seen anything like it. It appears to be > another coronavirus similar to SARS (and thankfully dissimilar to MERS). > I'm not assuming anything, I'm looking at a number of data points and > preprints and coming up with my best guess like everyone else. I'm not > pulling my hypothesis out of thin air or how I want things to be. > > >> >> >>> >>> *> 1,580 people have died, and their economy for the most part is still >>> open. * >>> >> >> Yes 1,580 people have died in Sweden, and the population of Sweden is 32 >> times smaller than the population of the USA. And Sweden's death numbers >> double every 8 days. How long will that rate of doubling continue? Nobody >> knows because as you say this is a new bug, and in Sweden's case there is >> the complication that some think extreme cold slows the spread of the virus >> and Sweden is currently very cold. Summer is coming. >> > > Some people think summer will be good for it dying off. Australia has > very few cases of it, yet tons of traffic with Asia and China. I don't > believe that Australia has been any more effective at containing it than > anywhere else, yet their counts remain very low. > > >> >> >>> *> What is your end game here, John, if you were running the show? * >>> >> >> I have no magical end game solution that does not involve a tragic amount >> of economic pain and human death, all we can do is try to minimize it the >> best we can. >> > > Don't you think there needs to be a balance between economic pain and > human death? How long are you willing to keep the economy shuttered, > particularly in states with very low current counts (likely due to > population density). > > >> >> >>> *> There is a real possibility that there will not be an effective >>> vaccine developed for t*his. >>> >> >> I'm not as pessimistic as you are. Given the fact that the virus doesn't >> mutate much and most people form antibodies and recover I think it's very >> unlikely that a vaccine can not be found, but if I'm wrong and a prevention >> or an effective treatment turns out to be as difficult as with cancer then >> we'd just have to accept a permanent and significant reduction of the human >> lifespan and of our standard of living. But right now we're a hell of a >> long way from that point of desperation. >> > > I'm not pessimistic about a vaccine, John, but I'm not optimistic about > one either. Coronavirus vaccines are not an easy task even if you assume > that there is a stable antigenic target. Prior vaccine attempts have > resulted in very nasty inflammatory responses in a subset of those > innoculated. I would guess that is going to be a challenge here, and you > won't find me personally going near a CV-19 vaccine for quite some time. I > certainly won't be first in line to get one, I can tell you that. Either > way though, I hope your optimism is warranted, and we get one, but I think > economic policy should assume we don't get one, not that we do. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:14:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:14:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: And in any case. you can't prove a negative. bill w On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:13 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 20/04/2020 10:57, Will Steinberg wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020, 12:11 Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The opinions of atheists are not convictions. They are evidence-based >> opinions. >> > > You have evidence that there is no God? Please let me know > > > Evidence-based opinions take into account a lack of evidence, as well as > its presence. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:21:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:21:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] word of the day Message-ID: Fritinancy Now why did I think of that while reading today's ex chat postings? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:36:22 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:36:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Bill- To answer your question, pretty much all of Wall St work could be done from home, but you do face the same challenges of interacting with the rest of a team that any other industry faces. Even Goldman Sachs is working from home, and has installed some industry specific devices in people's homes to make things easier (like trading turrets for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_turret). Bloomberg terminals can now be run from any PC as well, so that is not a limiting factor. Also, just an aside, but after 9/11, financial firms moved most of their personnel up to mid-town and never returned. There are still presences downtown of course, but Wall St is more of a symbol than a reality these days. Even the floor of the NYSE is mostly empty of anything beyond computers, and very little business had been transacted by floor brokers even prior to CV-19. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:21 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Besides that? I like cars. > > > > spike > > *I can just see Tokyo, London, Shanghai moving from trains and subways > to cars. Car parking buildings thousands of feet high........... * > > > * What is the use of financial analysts going to work in downtown NYC. > Just to sit in front of a PC? Could all computer work be done from home? > Why not? *Does anyone know? *bill w* > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:33 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:14 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> *> There's a new bug, * >>>> >>> >>> Yes it's new, nobody has seen anything like it before so our knowledge >>> of it is slight. You keep assuming that things are really better than they >>> seem, well maybe so, but maybe things are worse than they seem. >>> >> >> It's not true that we haven't seen anything like it. It appears to be >> another coronavirus similar to SARS (and thankfully dissimilar to MERS). >> I'm not assuming anything, I'm looking at a number of data points and >> preprints and coming up with my best guess like everyone else. I'm not >> pulling my hypothesis out of thin air or how I want things to be. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> *> 1,580 people have died, and their economy for the most part is still >>>> open. * >>>> >>> >>> Yes 1,580 people have died in Sweden, and the population of Sweden is 32 >>> times smaller than the population of the USA. And Sweden's death numbers >>> double every 8 days. How long will that rate of doubling continue? Nobody >>> knows because as you say this is a new bug, and in Sweden's case there is >>> the complication that some think extreme cold slows the spread of the virus >>> and Sweden is currently very cold. Summer is coming. >>> >> >> Some people think summer will be good for it dying off. Australia has >> very few cases of it, yet tons of traffic with Asia and China. I don't >> believe that Australia has been any more effective at containing it than >> anywhere else, yet their counts remain very low. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> *> What is your end game here, John, if you were running the show? * >>>> >>> >>> I have no magical end game solution that does not involve a tragic >>> amount of economic pain and human death, all we can do is try to >>> minimize it the best we can. >>> >> >> Don't you think there needs to be a balance between economic pain and >> human death? How long are you willing to keep the economy shuttered, >> particularly in states with very low current counts (likely due to >> population density). >> >> >>> >>> >>>> *> There is a real possibility that there will not be an effective >>>> vaccine developed for t*his. >>>> >>> >>> I'm not as pessimistic as you are. Given the fact that the virus doesn't >>> mutate much and most people form antibodies and recover I think it's very >>> unlikely that a vaccine can not be found, but if I'm wrong and a prevention >>> or an effective treatment turns out to be as difficult as with cancer then >>> we'd just have to accept a permanent and significant reduction of the human >>> lifespan and of our standard of living. But right now we're a hell of a >>> long way from that point of desperation. >>> >> >> I'm not pessimistic about a vaccine, John, but I'm not optimistic about >> one either. Coronavirus vaccines are not an easy task even if you assume >> that there is a stable antigenic target. Prior vaccine attempts have >> resulted in very nasty inflammatory responses in a subset of those >> innoculated. I would guess that is going to be a challenge here, and you >> won't find me personally going near a CV-19 vaccine for quite some time. I >> certainly won't be first in line to get one, I can tell you that. Either >> way though, I hope your optimism is warranted, and we get one, but I think >> economic policy should assume we don't get one, not that we do. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:39:55 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:39:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What is the use of financial analysts going to work in downtown NYC. Just > to sit in front of a PC? Could all computer work be done from home? Why > not? Does anyone know? > As an IT worker who's been working from home for six weeks, I think I can answer those questions. There probably isn't any good reason that people who sit in front of a computer can't do their work from home. Some sectors/employers will be more sensitive to the security risks, e.g., those working with classified information and those dealing with big money (banking, trading, etc.). Some jobs, like mine, are doable 95% online, but there are times when we need to do things in person, like swapping a failed disk drive, hooking up new equipment, etc. I could easily get by with 1/2 day/week or less on site. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:50:44 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:50:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And in any case. you can't prove a negative. > Wrong. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/believing-bull/201109/you-can-prove-negative "The fact is, however, that this supposed "law of logic" is no such thing. As Steven D. Hales points in his paper "You Can Prove a Negative," "You can't prove a negative" is a principle of folk logic, not actual logic. Notice, for a start, that "You cannot prove a negative" is itself a negative. So, if it were true, it would itself be unprovable. Notice that any claim can be transformed into a negative by a little rephrasing?most obviously, by negating the claim and then negating it again. "I exist" is logically equivalent to "I do not not exist," which is a negative. Yet here is a negative it seems I might perhaps be able to prove (in the style of Descartes?I think, therefore I do not not exist!). Of course, those who say "You can't prove a negative" will insist that I have misunderstood their point. As Hales notes, when people say, "You can't prove a negative," what they really mean is that you cannot prove that something does not exist. If this point were correct, it would apply not just to supernatural beings lying beyond the cosmic veil but also to things that might be supposed to exist on this side of the veil, such as unicorns, Martians, rabbits with 20 heads, and so on. We would not be able to prove the nonexistence of any of these things either." -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:51:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:51:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>Yes it's new, nobody has seen anything like it before so our knowledge of >> it is slight. >> > > I*t's not true that we haven't seen anything like it. It appears to be > another coronavirus similar to SARS* > They're both coronaviruses but squirrels and whales are both mammals. The genetic differences between COVID-19 and SARS is far greater than the difference between last years mild seasonal flu and the 1918 Spanish flu that killed tens of millions. > *I'm not pessimistic about a vaccine, John, but I'm not optimistic about > one either. Coronavirus vaccines are not an easy task even if you assume > that there is a stable antigenic target. * > A Phase 1 clinical trial of a COVID-19 vaccine started on March 16, and there will be lots more, the amount of resources poured into finding a vaccine for this thing and finding it fast is unprecedented . NIH Clinical Trial of a Vaccine for COVID-19 John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:59:11 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:59:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Omnitheism (was: Re: Atheism) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3003AA2C-569F-47B4-86EB-A3BAD51205BC@gmail.com> I have to nitpick. Theism means the view that there are gods or a god. That doesn?t entail religion necessarily. For instance, once can believe there are gods but one owes no alleigance to them and no rituals or practices that can alter their disposition. (Aristotle view of god seems like this.) Religion on the hand usually involves devotional practices or rituals and a view that one can affect the gods, one owes allegiance or service to them, that they take an interest in one?s affairs. (Again, Aristotle?s god seems to be utterly devoid of interest in people.) There?s another problem with this view as anything other than a joke: various theistic views can be contradictory. At an abstract level, for instance, it seems monotheism (there is one and only one god) contradicts polytheism (there are more than one god). Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Apr 20, 2020, at 10:32 AM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? On 20/04/2020 10:57, Will Steinberg asked: >> What are y'all? > > I have an atheistic world-view, which stems from being a materialist, so I call myself an atheist. But I also call myself an 'Omnitheist', which is not about religious faith, but about membership of religions. > > An Omnitheist claims membership of (although not belief in) ALL religions, past, present, future, real and imaginary. As an Omnitheist I can call myself a muslim, a zoroastrian, a sock-puppetarian, a pastafarian, a mormon, a wiccan, etc., etc. Absolutely everything. > > Anyone who wants to become an Omnitheist just needs to read, print out and sign the following declaration, and voila, you are a fully-signed up member of every single religion that does, did, will, could and couldn't exist, with all the associated rights, privileges, obligations (automatically deemed to have been satisfactorily met), the holidays, and so-on. And this is perfectly compatible with atheism, you don't have to believe a thing (if any religion requires that you believe something, that requirement is simply deemed to have been met): > > =========================================================== > OMNITHEIST DECLARATION > > By the reading and signing of this document, I the undersigned hereby declare, affirm and otherwise state: > > That I am henceforth a full member of every religion that exists, has ever existed, will exist and could exist, as well as every religion that cannot exist for whatever reason. > > In the case where membership of any religion requires the performance of a ritual, the utterance of a statement, or any other voluntary action, that action is hereby deemed to have been taken. > > In the case where membership of any religion requires the explicit permission of an existing authority of that religion, a sect or splinter group of that religion is deemed to have been created which does not require such permission, and membership of such sect or splinter group is hereby asserted, claimed, granted and confirmed. > > In the case where membership of any religion requires specific or general physical criteria to be met, such as bodily modifications, possession of certain bodily forms, gender, age, weight, etc., or pre-existing membership of some other group, such criteria are deemed to have been met. > > In the case where membership of any religion requires any other conditions or circumstances, these are deemed to have been satisfied. > > I hereby assume all the rights, responsibilities, duties and benefits that membership of the above-mentioned religions confers, and deem and certify that all such duties and obligations have been, are and will be carried out in a satisfactory manner. > > This by the power, assent and indulgence of all the gods, demigods, devils, demons, elemental powers, spirits, sprites, ghosts, any other supernatural or imaginary beings and abstract concepts, past present and future, eternal and transient, real and imaginary, of my own free will, in solemnity and absurdity, in mockery and in reverence, permanently and irrevocably, unless and until I change my mind. > > > Signed: > =========================================================== > -- > Ben Zaiboc > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 19:17:12 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:17:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 3:00 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >>Yes it's new, nobody has seen anything like it before so our knowledge >>> of it is slight. >>> >> > > > I*t's not true that we haven't seen anything like it. It appears to >> be another coronavirus similar to SARS* >> > > They're both coronaviruses but squirrels and whales are both mammals. The > genetic differences between COVID-19 and SARS is far greater than the > difference between last years mild seasonal flu and the 1918 Spanish flu > that killed tens of millions. > Are you being particularly difficult intentionally? Your comparison is not an apt one. Both SARS and COVID-19 are in the same family of a very specific type of virus. They share 78% of their genetic code which may not seem like alot, but MUCH MORE importantly, they use the same binding receptor, although COVID-19 appears to bind it more tightly which may explain why it is more contagious. Many of the symptoms overlap. We're not comparing squirrels and whales here. > > > *I'm not pessimistic about a vaccine, John, but I'm not optimistic >> about one either. Coronavirus vaccines are not an easy task even if you >> assume that there is a stable antigenic target. * >> > > A Phase 1 clinical trial of a COVID-19 vaccine started on March 16, and > there will be lots more, the amount of resources poured into finding a > vaccine for this thing and finding it fast is unprecedented . > > NIH Clinical Trial of a Vaccine for COVID-19 > > > John K Clark > I'm aware of the resources being poured into vaccine development. Like I said, I hope your optimism is warranted. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 19:20:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:20:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again (was: How many current members of ExI?) In-Reply-To: References: <34770b97-a25d-2f48-108c-0ca3e8bf6ec1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:06 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >* P.S. Russell's teapot doesn't count* >>> >> >> Why not? >> > > *> Because it makes an assumption that it does not attempt to prove--that > believing in God is as ridiculous as believing in the teapot. * > I think it's more ridiculous. Granted I've never seen a teapot in orbit around Uranus but I have at least seen teapots before, I have never seen a omniscient omnipotent being who created the universe around anything. > > I believe that God is a rational deduction which only requires > materialism and the experience of one's own consciousness. > Trying to explain why there is something rather than nothing by kicking the problem upstairs and then declaring it is strictly off limits to ask the next obvious question doesn't sound very rational to me. > *> Agnosticism is more palatable because I won't fault anyone for having > no belief. * > I think that's a weasel word, I willing to make a stand and boldly declare that I am a teapot atheist. I'm a Bugs Bunny atheist too, I just don't think Bugs really exists. * > it is still true in my eyes that any scientist should rationally > believe in substrate independent consciousness* > I agree, but I don't know what that has to do with God. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 19:40:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:40:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= Message-ID: "*West Texas Crude oil priced at $0.01 at 14:20 eastern time. At 14:22 eastern time, it collapsed to -$1.43 and fifteen minutes later, fell to -$20 for the May contract. For the first time in the history of the oil and gas industry, oil became absolutely worthless today*." Historic Day For World?s Oil Markets As American Crude Becomes Worthless John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:51:29 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:51:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] seattle and mt. rainier In-Reply-To: <005701d61690$9627c9e0$c2775da0$@rainier66.com> References: <005701d61690$9627c9e0$c2775da0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat On Apr 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>?Also, on foot, friends have hiked completely around Rainier, which takes about a week to ten days.. > > You sure do, if you consider me a friend: my bride and I did > the Wonderland Trail in summer of 2004. It was an epic adventure. Sounds like it. I consider you and everyone here friends... I meant my local friends. :) > There was one day on the west side trail when we saw more bears > than we saw people. I can believe that. Funny thing is, since I tend to hike in a group -- usually from four to twelve people -- this tends to mean we don't get to see many bears, especially up close. But last year was an exception. We were hiking in the North Cascades, IIRC, and came up one bear and then another. I also ran into a bear on the hike up to Burroughs (near Rainier). Well, it wasn't exactly on the trail. In both cases, these weren't trails way out in the wilderness. > We are trying to score permits to do the west side again this summer > from Cougar Rock to Mowich Lake. If we get permits, we will take the > afore-mentioned friend and my son. Near Mowich, I've done Tolmie Peak, which is small, easy to get too, and can be crowded. But great views of Rainier. And you can get away from the crowds there by hiking the ridge away from the station there. (It's just over 200 m prominence, so fairly easy and given what you've done so far nothing to hike up.) That was a few years back -- probably 2015. Time flies. Anyhow, see the photo. That's Eunice Lake, a rather small lake, from up on the peak. >>?I have yet to hike Pinnacle, but the views are supposed to be >> great from there. The sad thing is that would be a very popular >> area ? near Paradise? > > We are talking about two different Pinnacle Peaks. The one I meant > is near Enumclaw. The one near Paradise is stunning indeed. We > were up there last summer. Ja it is crowded there at times. Go > during the week. If this virus thing blows over, I'll try to convince my mid-week hiking companions about that one. (Smaller group, though that works for me.) Also, have to check on the trail conditions. I generally for things to thaw out before hiking. I have gear for hiking in snow, but I prefer not to. > Be ye very careful: lots of loose rock and ways > to hurt yourself on that trail. Thanks! >>?I?m not antisocial, but it?s nice in and to hike to an area where it?s >> not crowded. I usually go with a group anyhow ? typically a half >> dozen people. > > Dan that trail, particularly the west side, is all about solitude. That year > we made the full loop, we had back-country permits which are damn > hard to get (good thing they are.) We were overlooking Golden Lakes > from part way up the mountain when I took this picture looking east: Nice view. I'm thinking that if you're into that, have you done the Enchantments? There's limited passes there, but it's supposed to be spectacular. In fact, I've never heard anyone say it wasn't. :) I limit myself to day hikes and though the Enchantments can be a a day hike if you're fast and hike through, it's a bit too grueling for me to do that in a day. I know my limits. :) > Thanks for mentioning that trail, for they are fond memories indeed. > I do hope we get permits again soon, for we have few remaining > years in which we will be strong enough to do that 4 day hike > which is the west side. Wishing you luck! Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Inline image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 233445 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 19:48:23 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:48:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's historic in a disastrous way that may have terrible 2nd order effects on overall financial markets and more importantly the real world. It's another factor in arguing that shutting things down completely is a terrible idea. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 3:42 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "*West Texas Crude oil priced at $0.01 at 14:20 eastern time. At 14:22 > eastern time, it collapsed to -$1.43 and fifteen minutes later, fell to > -$20 for the May contract. For the first time in the history of the oil and > gas industry, oil became absolutely worthless today*." > > Historic Day For World?s Oil Markets As American Crude Becomes Worthless > > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 20:02:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:02:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has oil ever been any cheaper, adjusting for inflation and all that? bill w On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:43 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "*West Texas Crude oil priced at $0.01 at 14:20 eastern time. At 14:22 > eastern time, it collapsed to -$1.43 and fifteen minutes later, fell to > -$20 for the May contract. For the first time in the history of the oil and > gas industry, oil became absolutely worthless today*." > > Historic Day For World?s Oil Markets As American Crude Becomes Worthless > > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 20:13:36 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:13:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't believe so. Because there is a cost to store oil (like all commodities), and all storage appears to be full, there is the possibility of negative prices. I may be wrong, but I cannot recall another situation where there was more oil than storage. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 4:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Has oil ever been any cheaper, adjusting for inflation and all that? bill > w > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:43 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> "*West Texas Crude oil priced at $0.01 at 14:20 eastern time. At 14:22 >> eastern time, it collapsed to -$1.43 and fifteen minutes later, fell to >> -$20 for the May contract. For the first time in the history of the oil and >> gas industry, oil became absolutely worthless today*." >> >> Historic Day For World?s Oil Markets As American Crude Becomes Worthless >> >> >> John K Clark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 20:15:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:15:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] seattle and mt. rainier In-Reply-To: References: <005701d61690$9627c9e0$c2775da0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <029e01d61750$61b1e7c0$2515b740$@rainier66.com> We have a situation where oil prices are (temporarily) negative: it is harder to shut off an oil well than one might imagine, and once it is, that well is a job to start back up. This caused me to ponder something related to your post. Dan, that gorgeous photo of Eunice Lake brings back fond memories. My bride and I have been up to the fire lookout near where your photo was taken, and I agree, it is a beauty up there. I hike in the Mount Rainier area every summer, backpacking sometimes, hiking always. Seattle is filled with people. Many of them go to the airport, fly across the world to visit the Alps, when that gorgeous mountain with all its beautiful trails are an hour?s drive. It can be done in an easy day trip. Yet they wing it elsewhere, even if they have never been to Mt. Rainier. Meanwhile? many if not most of the people I talk to on the trail at Mount Rainier? came over from Europe, to see the place. Evidence: go up to Sunrise Point parking lot and notice how many cars look like rentals. We do so much wasteful activity, it is appalling. In this time of emergency, my fond hope is we ponder what can be done far more efficiently, then do it that way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 20:36:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:36:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe this is not relevant to the situation, but I have read where there are abandoned salt mines (in Louisiana?) where the government has stored oil for emergencies etc. Here is a table that you might find interesting beyond the price of gas, such as the cost of unskilled labor. https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/uscompare/2019.html bill w On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 3:15 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't believe so. Because there is a cost to store oil (like all > commodities), and all storage appears to be full, there is the possibility > of negative prices. I may be wrong, but I cannot recall another situation > where there was more oil than storage. > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 4:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Has oil ever been any cheaper, adjusting for inflation and all that? >> bill w >> >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:43 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> "*West Texas Crude oil priced at $0.01 at 14:20 eastern time. At 14:22 >>> eastern time, it collapsed to -$1.43 and fifteen minutes later, fell to >>> -$20 for the May contract. For the first time in the history of the oil and >>> gas industry, oil became absolutely worthless today*." >>> >>> Historic Day For World?s Oil Markets As American Crude Becomes Worthless >>> >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 20:40:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:40:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] transition to online learning Message-ID: <02b201d61753$f5a4a1e0$e0ede5a0$@rainier66.com> If you haven?t already suffered far too much of this kind of thing, this young mother has written a song about the transition to online learning. It is beautiful in its authenticity, its heartfelt honesty: https://twitter.com/TreyCallaway/status/1251273373922897920 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 20:45:19 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:45:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From what I'm hearing, you are correct. The negative price (which appears to have already recovered to over zero, though still quite low) was because of the cost of storage. Contracts which were up for physical delivery were running into a lack of storage space. (This isn't including that massive Saudi Arabian tanker fleet apparently due to arrive next month, which is already full of oil.) People with lots of spare storage, though not previously seen worth keeping oil there, have already stepped up - so if you're thinking of offering your back yard for a few months, sorry, it's already too late for you to make a buck that way. Even adjusting for inflation, negative is negative; inflation is only a multiplier. If this is the first time it's gone negative, then this was the lowest price ever. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:15 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't believe so. Because there is a cost to store oil (like all > commodities), and all storage appears to be full, there is the possibility > of negative prices. I may be wrong, but I cannot recall another situation > where there was more oil than storage. > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 4:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Has oil ever been any cheaper, adjusting for inflation and all that? >> bill w >> >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:43 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> "*West Texas Crude oil priced at $0.01 at 14:20 eastern time. At 14:22 >>> eastern time, it collapsed to -$1.43 and fifteen minutes later, fell to >>> -$20 for the May contract. For the first time in the history of the oil and >>> gas industry, oil became absolutely worthless today*." >>> >>> Historic Day For World?s Oil Markets As American Crude Becomes Worthless >>> >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 21:13:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:13:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. You mean I can go fill up and they pay me? bill w On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 3:51 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > From what I'm hearing, you are correct. The negative price (which appears > to have already recovered to over zero, though still quite low) was because > of the cost of storage. Contracts which were up for physical delivery were > running into a lack of storage space. (This isn't including that massive > Saudi Arabian tanker fleet apparently due to arrive next month, which is > already full of oil.) People with lots of spare storage, though not > previously seen worth keeping oil there, have already stepped up - so if > you're thinking of offering your back yard for a few months, sorry, it's > already too late for you to make a buck that way. > > Even adjusting for inflation, negative is negative; inflation is only a > multiplier. If this is the first time it's gone negative, then this was > the lowest price ever. > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:15 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I don't believe so. Because there is a cost to store oil (like all >> commodities), and all storage appears to be full, there is the possibility >> of negative prices. I may be wrong, but I cannot recall another situation >> where there was more oil than storage. >> >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 4:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Has oil ever been any cheaper, adjusting for inflation and all that? >>> bill w >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:43 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> "*West Texas Crude oil priced at $0.01 at 14:20 eastern time. At 14:22 >>>> eastern time, it collapsed to -$1.43 and fifteen minutes later, fell to >>>> -$20 for the May contract. For the first time in the history of the oil and >>>> gas industry, oil became absolutely worthless today*." >>>> >>>> Historic Day For World?s Oil Markets As American Crude Becomes Worthless >>>> >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 21:14:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:14:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 4:02 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: shutting things down completely is a terrible idea. I agree. The only thing worse is not shutting down completely. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Apr 20 21:27:21 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:27:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Omnitheism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ab67f28-94e0-d048-393f-4039111b3dd2@zaiboc.net> On 20/04/2020 20:18, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > I have to nitpick. Theism means the view that there are gods or a god. > That doesn?t entail religion necessarily. I do agree with this nitpick. It's not the most accurate name. I invite suggestions for a better name than 'Omnitheism'. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 21:28:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:28:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] John Conway is dead Message-ID: John Conway, the inventor of the Game Of Life and one of the greatest mathematicians in the world has died of COVID-19. John Conway Solved Mathematical Problems With His Bare Hands John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 21:40:46 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:40:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Omnitheism In-Reply-To: <2ab67f28-94e0-d048-393f-4039111b3dd2@zaiboc.net> References: <2ab67f28-94e0-d048-393f-4039111b3dd2@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I think you are going to have to define religion. Usually it entails worship, but of course you are free to define it any way you want to. bill w On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 4:32 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 20/04/2020 20:18, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > I have to nitpick. Theism means the view that there are gods or a god. > > That doesn?t entail religion necessarily. > > I do agree with this nitpick. It's not the most accurate name. I invite > suggestions for a better name than 'Omnitheism'. > > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Apr 20 21:11:53 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:11:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <838f71de-edc4-fcff-9626-5501fa3f6f81@zaiboc.net> On 20/04/2020 18:22, Spike wrote: > > *From:* extropy-chat *On > Behalf Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > On 2020. Apr 19., Sun at 14:05, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > > ?I'm curious, Spike: Where or in what form what do they > think this stored > data is? ? just happens magically? > > > OK, but that doesn't answer my question. How does it happen? What is > the mechanism, what is the medium? Where is the information stored? > If the answer is "We don't know", "We don't know", "We don't know", > and "We don't know, but we think it's true anyway", I'd call that > magical thinking? Ben > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > Ja of course. ... Sorry, Spike. This wasn't directed at you. Somehow I missed off Giulio's remark "Just happens *physically*", which was in response to me saying "just happens magically". -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 21:48:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:48:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:55 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> You Can Prove a Negative* You can prove negative things in formal logic and mathematics but not in science, you can only say some things are unnecessary or some things are very very unlikely. It would be better to say you can't outsmart a omniscient omnipotent being. So if God wants to fool you and make you think He doesn't exist when He really does then He has the power to do exactly that and make a fool of you, hence the dinosaur bones that were made and buried in 4004 BC that were never part of any living animal. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 22:04:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:04:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: <838f71de-edc4-fcff-9626-5501fa3f6f81@zaiboc.net> References: <838f71de-edc4-fcff-9626-5501fa3f6f81@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <030b01d6175f$ad013dc0$0703b940$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat -- Ben Zaiboc Ja of course. ... Sorry, Spike. This wasn't directed at you. Somehow I missed off Giulio's remark "Just happens *physically*", which was in response to me saying "just happens magically". -- Ben Zaiboc No worries Ben, religion always requires inventiveness and imagination. The problem is when a hardcore empiricist examines his own long-held religious convictions. I had an experience that may be relevant, a commend made by the bride of my friend from Washington who lives near Mount Peak. She was well aware of my philosophical path. Her comment went along these lines: If atheism is right, then the things we do in this life are irrelevant for they all lead to the same place in a short enough time. Even if we think of our children and how to improve their world, that too is irrelevant for they too face the same short time in a meaningless existence with no real destiny, and so on with their children. The notion that all of our existence is all perfectly meaningless is not acceptable. Therefore, we assume there is a point to it all. I chose to not contest the notion. She too seemed to be able to do something I am utterly unable to do: choose one's belief. I am one who cannot choose what I believe, for if I could, I would never have rejected my comfortable religion to start with. I was happy there. It was very difficult for me when I began to realize it was all wrong, and I don't feel as if I had the option to both believe and disbelieve at the same time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 22:10:23 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:10:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] John Conway is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://xkcd.com/2293/ (a tribute comic) On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:37 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John Conway, the inventor of the Game Of Life and one of the greatest > mathematicians in the world has died of COVID-19. > > John Conway Solved Mathematical Problems With His Bare Hands > > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 22:31:24 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:31:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the negative prices had lasted long enough for effects to come down the supply chain all the way to your local gas station, that might indeed have happened eventually. They didn't, and it was expected they wouldn't. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Wow. You mean I can go fill up and they pay me? bill w > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 3:51 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> From what I'm hearing, you are correct. The negative price (which >> appears to have already recovered to over zero, though still quite low) was >> because of the cost of storage. Contracts which were up for physical >> delivery were running into a lack of storage space. (This isn't including >> that massive Saudi Arabian tanker fleet apparently due to arrive next >> month, which is already full of oil.) People with lots of spare storage, >> though not previously seen worth keeping oil there, have already stepped up >> - so if you're thinking of offering your back yard for a few months, sorry, >> it's already too late for you to make a buck that way. >> >> Even adjusting for inflation, negative is negative; inflation is only a >> multiplier. If this is the first time it's gone negative, then this was >> the lowest price ever. >> >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 1:15 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I don't believe so. Because there is a cost to store oil (like all >>> commodities), and all storage appears to be full, there is the possibility >>> of negative prices. I may be wrong, but I cannot recall another situation >>> where there was more oil than storage. >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 4:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Has oil ever been any cheaper, adjusting for inflation and all that? >>>> bill w >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:43 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> "*West Texas Crude oil priced at $0.01 at 14:20 eastern time. At >>>>> 14:22 eastern time, it collapsed to -$1.43 and fifteen minutes later, fell >>>>> to -$20 for the May contract. For the first time in the history of the oil >>>>> and gas industry, oil became absolutely worthless today*." >>>>> >>>>> Historic Day For World?s Oil Markets As American Crude Becomes >>>>> Worthless >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 22:43:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:43:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: <030b01d6175f$ad013dc0$0703b940$@rainier66.com> References: <838f71de-edc4-fcff-9626-5501fa3f6f81@zaiboc.net> <030b01d6175f$ad013dc0$0703b940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: God said: "Believe in me and be nice to people." That's it (Episcopal summary of the commandments). Why does religion have the only answer to meaning? I am a humanist. We think that being human is a good thing, so let's keep it going. Not only keep it going, but improve ourselves and our planet (the latter we have utterly failed at so far). I think improving humans is a great task, an endless task, and everyone can contribute to it by developing AI or growing beets. Bloom where you are planted. Develop yourself according to the DNA you received. Contribute your gifts to your society. Raise good children. Die happy. Maybe that can be improved on, but for now I'll go with it. bill w On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 5:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > -- > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > > > Ja of course. ... > > > Sorry, Spike. This wasn't directed at you. Somehow I missed off Giulio's > remark "Just happens *physically*", which was in response to me saying > "just happens magically". > > -- > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > > > > > No worries Ben, religion always requires inventiveness and imagination. > > > > The problem is when a hardcore empiricist examines his own long-held religious convictions. > > > > I had an experience that may be relevant, a commend made by the bride of my friend from Washington who lives near Mount Peak. She was well aware of my philosophical path. Her comment went along these lines: > > > > If atheism is right, then the things we do in this life are irrelevant for they all lead to the same place in a short enough time. Even if we think of our children and how to improve their world, that too is irrelevant for they too face the same short time in a meaningless existence with no real destiny, and so on with their children. The notion that all of our existence is all perfectly meaningless is not acceptable. Therefore, we assume there is a point to it all. > > > > I chose to not contest the notion. She too seemed to be able to do something I am utterly unable to do: choose one?s belief. I am one who cannot choose what I believe, for if I could, I would never have rejected my comfortable religion to start with. I was happy there. It was very difficult for me when I began to realize it was all wrong, and I don?t feel as if I had the option to both believe and disbelieve at the same time. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 23:06:52 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:06:52 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 04:54, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> And in any case. you can't prove a negative. >> > > Wrong. > > > https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/believing-bull/201109/you-can-prove-negative > > "The fact is, however, that this supposed "law of logic" is no such thing. > As Steven D. Hales points in his paper "You Can Prove a Negative," "You > can't prove a negative" is a principle of folk logic, not actual logic. > > Notice, for a start, that "You cannot prove a negative" is itself a > negative. So, if it were true, it would itself be unprovable. Notice that > any claim can be transformed into a negative by a little rephrasing?most > obviously, by negating the claim and then negating it again. "I exist" is > logically equivalent to "I do not not exist," which is a negative. Yet here > is a negative it seems I might perhaps be able to prove (in the style of > Descartes?I think, therefore I do not not exist!). > > Of course, those who say "You can't prove a negative" will insist that I > have misunderstood their point. As Hales notes, when people say, "You can't > prove a negative," what they really mean is that you cannot prove that > something does not exist. If this point were correct, it would apply not > just to supernatural beings lying beyond the cosmic veil but also to things > that might be supposed to exist on this side of the veil, such as unicorns, > Martians, rabbits with 20 heads, and so on. We would not be able to prove > the nonexistence of any of these things either." > In general, you can only prove things in mathematics, not in science. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 20 23:09:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:09:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <035101d61768$c5557cc0$50007640$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Wow. You mean I can go fill up and they pay me? bill w >?If the negative prices had lasted long enough for effects to come down the supply chain all the way to your local gas station, that might indeed have happened eventually. >?They didn't, and it was expected they wouldn't? Adrian The kind of oil whose price went negative is the sour crude (high sulfur) which is more expensive to refine to the standards we demand, not the sweet crude we get from Saudi Arabia. If your car burned sour crude oil you would be in good shape. It doesn?t, so you still need to pay people to refine the crude into gasoline, transport it to the gas station, pay the gas station to maintain the equipment to pump it out of the underground tank into your car and measure the amount you used in order to bill you. You also still need to pay the taxes on the fuel. Add all that together and it still goes over 3 bucks a gallon, which is what I paid this morning. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 23:26:54 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:26:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Getting ready for July launch Message-ID: <8507AEC1-39E2-44F5-A8BC-7628B773DED8@gmail.com> https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/ A bit of good news... And this over will Be carrying a drone. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 23:28:01 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:28:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Exactly. We may wake up tomorrow, and almost all physics (and historical e evidence) will have radically changed right? Brent On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 5:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 04:54, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> And in any case. you can't prove a negative. >>> >> >> Wrong. >> >> >> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/believing-bull/201109/you-can-prove-negative >> >> "The fact is, however, that this supposed "law of logic" is no such >> thing. As Steven D. Hales points in his paper "You Can Prove a Negative," >> "You can't prove a negative" is a principle of folk logic, not actual logic. >> >> Notice, for a start, that "You cannot prove a negative" is itself a >> negative. So, if it were true, it would itself be unprovable. Notice that >> any claim can be transformed into a negative by a little rephrasing?most >> obviously, by negating the claim and then negating it again. "I exist" is >> logically equivalent to "I do not not exist," which is a negative. Yet here >> is a negative it seems I might perhaps be able to prove (in the style of >> Descartes?I think, therefore I do not not exist!). >> >> Of course, those who say "You can't prove a negative" will insist that I >> have misunderstood their point. As Hales notes, when people say, "You can't >> prove a negative," what they really mean is that you cannot prove that >> something does not exist. If this point were correct, it would apply not >> just to supernatural beings lying beyond the cosmic veil but also to things >> that might be supposed to exist on this side of the veil, such as unicorns, >> Martians, rabbits with 20 heads, and so on. We would not be able to prove >> the nonexistence of any of these things either." >> > > In general, you can only prove things in mathematics, not in science. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 23:38:32 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:38:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Age and the Future In-Reply-To: References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: > I was about to reply to John but I had the revelation that it will just > make him post more. > > SR I for one am glad you are here--not just because of the little female > representation here, but because of the little YOUNG representation here. > I am 28 next month and sometimes I feel like a fetus round these parts > Haha, I remember how shocked I was to learn how old you are! I?m 26. It?s sad to me that there are so few 20-35 y/o people on the list, but I think it might be a function of the list being an email list. I think the majority of people in this age group would probably not even know what an email list is. Just like the lack of understanding about IRC. Speaking of being young, I got engaged recently, and we?re planning on getting married around Feb 22 in/around SATX, depending on work, money, Covid, etc. Keep you updated. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 23:42:43 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:42:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: <035101d61768$c5557cc0$50007640$@rainier66.com> References: <035101d61768$c5557cc0$50007640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Gasoline prices lage behind North American crude prices, and are dampened somewhat from the extremes. Gasoline won't go negative, or even sub-one-dollar, but they can reasonably be expected to dip substantially in the next 2-4 weeks. Now might be a good time to buy some extra jerry-cans for when that happens. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 5:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > >>?Wow. You mean I can go fill up and they pay me? bill w > > > > >?If the negative prices had lasted long enough for effects to come down > the supply chain all the way to your local gas station, that might indeed > have happened eventually. > > > > >?They didn't, and it was expected they wouldn't? Adrian > > > > The kind of oil whose price went negative is the sour crude (high sulfur) > which is more expensive to refine to the standards we demand, not the sweet > crude we get from Saudi Arabia. > > > > If your car burned sour crude oil you would be in good shape. > > > > It doesn?t, so you still need to pay people to refine the crude into > gasoline, transport it to the gas station, pay the gas station to maintain > the equipment to pump it out of the underground tank into your car and > measure the amount you used in order to bill you. You also still need to > pay the taxes on the fuel. Add all that together and it still goes over 3 > bucks a gallon, which is what I paid this morning. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 00:00:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:00:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: References: <035101d61768$c5557cc0$50007640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In my area, it might be possible, I think, to see sub $1. As of yesterday you could get gas here for $1.30. And it?s already sub $1 in some areas, per the news: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5160056002 On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 6:49 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Gasoline prices lage behind North American crude prices, and are dampened > somewhat from the extremes. > > Gasoline won't go negative, or even sub-one-dollar, but they can > reasonably be expected to dip substantially in the next 2-4 weeks. > > Now might be a good time to buy some extra jerry-cans for when that > happens. > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 5:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>?Wow. You mean I can go fill up and they pay me? bill w >> >> >> >> >?If the negative prices had lasted long enough for effects to come down >> the supply chain all the way to your local gas station, that might indeed >> have happened eventually. >> >> >> >> >?They didn't, and it was expected they wouldn't? Adrian >> >> >> >> The kind of oil whose price went negative is the sour crude (high sulfur) >> which is more expensive to refine to the standards we demand, not the sweet >> crude we get from Saudi Arabia. >> >> >> >> If your car burned sour crude oil you would be in good shape. >> >> >> >> It doesn?t, so you still need to pay people to refine the crude into >> gasoline, transport it to the gas station, pay the gas station to maintain >> the equipment to pump it out of the underground tank into your car and >> measure the amount you used in order to bill you. You also still need to >> pay the taxes on the fuel. Add all that together and it still goes over 3 >> bucks a gallon, which is what I paid this morning. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 21 00:02:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:02:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Age and the Future In-Reply-To: References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <039601d61770$2fbd00e0$8f3702a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat I was about to reply to John but I had the revelation that it will just make him post more. SR I for one am glad you are here--not just because of the little female representation here, but because of the little YOUNG representation here. I am 28 next month and sometimes I feel like a fetus round these parts >?Haha, I remember how shocked I was to learn how old you are! I?m 26. >?It?s sad to me that there are so few 20-35 y/o people on the list, but I think it might be a function of the list being an email list. I think the majority of people in this age group would probably not even know what an email list is. Just like the lack of understanding about IRC. >?Speaking of being young, I got engaged recently, and we?re planning on getting married around Feb 22 in/around SATX, depending on work, money, Covid, etc. Keep you updated. Good for you SR. My bride and I had already been married ten years before you were born. It has worked out extremely well for us. Best wishes to you. Another email group I was on tried to go over to another medium besides email, but it generally didn?t work out. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerhorne at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 23:54:36 2020 From: emerhorne at gmail.com (Tristan Linck) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:54:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Age and the Future In-Reply-To: References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <6d4e842d-02a2-fe28-ee40-1508612ea580@gmail.com> On 2020-04-20 19:38, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > I was about to reply to John but I had the revelation that it will > just make him post more. > > SR I for one am glad you are here--not just because of the little > female representation here, but because of the little YOUNG > representation here. I am 28 next month and sometimes I feel like > a fetus round these parts > > > Haha, I remember how shocked I was to learn how old you are! I?m 26. > > It?s sad to me that there are so few 20-35 y/o people on the list, but > I think it might be a function of the list being an email list. I > think the majority of people in this age group would probably not even > know what an email list is. Just like the lack of understanding about > IRC. > > Speaking of being young, I got engaged recently, and we?re planning on > getting married around Feb 22 in/around SATX, depending on work, > money, Covid, etc. Keep you updated. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat I suppose I am a little guilty here. Another one in the 20-35 range, but I tend not to post. Maybe this will be the nudge that gets me active! Also, congratulations and/or condolences! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 00:42:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:42:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?This_is_a_Historic_Day_For_World=E2=80=99s_Oil_M?= =?utf-8?q?arkets?= In-Reply-To: <035101d61768$c5557cc0$50007640$@rainier66.com> References: <035101d61768$c5557cc0$50007640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Add all that together and it still goes over 3 bucks a gallon, which is what I paid this morning. spike It's $1.49 here and dropping. bill w On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 6:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > >>?Wow. You mean I can go fill up and they pay me? bill w > > > > >?If the negative prices had lasted long enough for effects to come down > the supply chain all the way to your local gas station, that might indeed > have happened eventually. > > > > >?They didn't, and it was expected they wouldn't? Adrian > > > > The kind of oil whose price went negative is the sour crude (high sulfur) > which is more expensive to refine to the standards we demand, not the sweet > crude we get from Saudi Arabia. > > > > If your car burned sour crude oil you would be in good shape. > > > > It doesn?t, so you still need to pay people to refine the crude into > gasoline, transport it to the gas station, pay the gas station to maintain > the equipment to pump it out of the underground tank into your car and > measure the amount you used in order to bill you. You also still need to > pay the taxes on the fuel. Add all that together and it still goes over 3 > bucks a gallon, which is what I paid this morning. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 01:00:36 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:00:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I can prove that God may exist: P = God exists >> -P = God does not exist P v -P QED -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 06:01:27 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:01:27 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I think physical reality is infinitely rich, with room for all the promises of religions, including universal resurrection, and more, and God-like entities more powerful than anything that we can imagine. This worldview sounds too religious to atheists and too atheistic to believers, so I am often insulted by both (not that I care :-) But I can choose to call myself a believer or an atheist, depending on where I put the emphasis. I have pleasant and constructive discussions with both believers and atheists. Thought policing is one of the thing that really drives me mad. Now, in other places and times, thought policing was mainly practiced by believers against atheists. In those places and times, I would have chosen to call myself an atheist. But here and now, in the cultural climate of the West, especially in academy and media, thought policing is mainly practiced by atheists against believers. Therefore, here and now, I choose to call myself a believer. To those fundamentalists (believers and atheists) who can't live without policing thoughts, my message is: What business of yours is policing the belief, or the lack of belief, of others? I believe in everyone's right to pursue meaning and happiness in their own personal way. If someone finds meaning happiness in a belief, or in the lack thereof, leave them in peace and be happy for them. Get a life, for fuck's sake. From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 07:44:56 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:44:56 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 11:02, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I can prove that God may exist: > > P = God exists > >> -P = God does not exist > P v -P > QED > This is an assertion that it is not logically impossible for God to exist, which is reasonable. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 08:16:41 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 03:16:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Age and the Future In-Reply-To: <6d4e842d-02a2-fe28-ee40-1508612ea580@gmail.com> References: <8D6FBA8B-9963-4D5A-A7A3-EF1F175276F2@gmail.com> <8322c37dbfbb8db486205eafdf6114c3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <6d4e842d-02a2-fe28-ee40-1508612ea580@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Also, congratulations and/or condolences! > Hey Tristan, This is my third engagement, so it better work out or I?m giving up! Haha Although I?ve been proposed to 5.5 times... Well, what can ya do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 10:11:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:11:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 2:04 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> here and now, in the cultural climate of the West, especially in academy > and media, thought policing is mainly practiced by atheists against > believers.* Speaking of the Thought Police and George Orwell, it would be entirely appropriate for academics to have a strong bias against an Astronomy professor who believed the universe was created on October 23 4004 BC, or a professor of Evolutionary Biology who thought every word of the Noah Ark story was literally true because, according to my Newspeak dictionary, the best word to describe that sort of behavior is Doublethink. And that is not conducive to competence or even sanity. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Apr 21 11:52:57 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:52:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> On 21/04/2020 01:01, Spike wrote: "I had an experience that may be relevant, a commend made by the bride of my friend from Washington who lives near Mount Peak.? She was well aware of my philosophical path.? Her comment went along these lines: If atheism is right, then the things we do in this life are irrelevant for they all lead to the same place in a short enough time.? Even if we think of our children and how to improve their world, that too is irrelevant for they too face the same short time in a meaningless existence with no real destiny, and so on with their children.? The notion that all of our existence is all perfectly meaningless is not acceptable.? Therefore, we assume there is a point to it all." I would take issue with the idea that atheism can be right or wrong. It's not asserting anything, it's just a lack of belief. It may lead to assertions which may be right or wrong, but I don't think it can be right or wrong in itself. Apart from that, the statement "then the things we do in this life are irrelevant" is a bit of a stretch (actually I really object to it, see below). I remember when I was young, and my dad was keen to show me the stars, and get me to understand just how damned many of them are up there. We had a pair of powerful binoculars, and I saw a mind-boggling number of stars. And I knew that what I was seeing was just the teeniest tiniest fraction of what was actually there. That was a really humbling experience, and made me think just how utterly insignificant, tiny and fleeting everything we are and know is. The funny thing is, I didn't find this at all depressing. I found it enormously liberating, and felt kind of buoyed up by it. I really think I discovered the meaning of life at that moment (/My/ meaning of life, I should say): "You Decide". That was a real revelation to me, and I still feel exhilarated and even uplifted by it now, decades later. Such a contrast to the dreary oppression of christianity and its bedfellows! That's my answer if anyone ever asks me what the meaning of life is. You Decide. It works on a couple of levels, and it reinforced my atheism which was developing around that time (I was reading a great big fancy old leather-and-brass-bound bible, which was an enormous help. I thoroughly recommend actually reading the bible (and the koran, etc.), for anyone who has a tendency to think there might be more to all this than a bunch of people making things up). The reason I find the 'things we do are irrelevant' remark objectionable is that it assumes that if there are gods, the things we do are not irrelevant and meaningless, but if there aren't, they are. Why should that be? Even if gods exist, they are just another kind of being. What makes our actions meaningful if they exist, but not if they don't? It sounds kind of stupid when you think about it. There's only one person who has the right to decide if my life, my decisions and actions and thoughts, are meaningful or not. And it's not some beardy insecure bully who lives in the sky (even if such a being really does exist). I long ago decided that if this much-touted god turns out to be real, it doesn't deserve even my respect, much less 'worship'. In fact, it needs a bloody good talking-to, at the very least. "Therefore, we assume there is a point to it all". What point would that be? Just think about it. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 12:56:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:56:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 7:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> That's my answer if anyone ever asks me what the meaning of life is. You > Decide.* I agree good answer. You and I are the ones in the meaning conferring business not the external universe. A cloud of hydrogen gas ten billion light years away can't give us meaning but we can give meaning to it. I don't need God or anything else to pat me on the head and give me His seal of approval. * > I would take issue with the idea that atheism can be right or wrong. * > God either exists or He does not. * > It's not asserting anything, it's just a lack of belief.* > And one can be absolutely positively 100% certain about something and still be dead wrong; for example the 88 virgins (or was it 77?) the 911 hijackers were supposed to get in the afterlife. > > I thoroughly recommend actually reading the bible (and the koran, etc.), > I also think people should actually read the bible because it's a great advertisement for atheism, as Richard Dawkins said: *?The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.?* *> Even if gods exist, they are just another kind of being. What makes our > actions meaningful if they exist, but not if they don't?* > Beats me. And even if God does exist He must be asking Himself "what is my purpose?" and "why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed?". > > *It sounds kind of stupid when you think about it.* > Yep. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 13:45:40 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:45:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: This sounds way cool, if I could understand. Help me out, here. What does the "v" in "P v -P" mean? On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 1:46 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 11:02, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I can prove that God may exist: >> >> P = God exists >> >> -P = God does not exist >> P v -P >> QED >> > > This is an assertion that it is not logically impossible for God to exist, > which is reasonable. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 13:59:57 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:59:57 +1000 Subject: [ExI] ccp struggles In-Reply-To: <20200414180209.Horde.rrZ9k9LCYoV9tCyKCjpYghu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200414180209.Horde.rrZ9k9LCYoV9tCyKCjpYghu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 16:02, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > > > If a policeman tries to arrest you for something that you think is > > unconstitutional, you don?t have the right to shoot him, or even threaten > > to shoot him. You will likely be punished if you shoot him or threaten to > > shoot him even if it is subsequently agreed in court (in a case separate > > from your criminal trial) that the policeman was acting on laws that were > > unconstitutional. > > An armed American might not have the explicit right to shoot a > policeman for violating his constitutional rights, but he certainly > does have the option to do so. That option alone might prevent the > policeman from barging into that American's home to see if he has > anything he might want to take, demand free room and board from him, > or otherwise excessively abuse police powers. Both the American > citizen and the policeman have to deal with the consequences of their > actions. By being armed, you can make sure those consequences are > evident to the policeman. Armed citizenry keep the police honest. > > Ever since Australians gave up their gun rights, the government can > now just arrest their journalists and treat them like criminals, if > they write or say the wrong thing. Can you imagine if Trump had that > power here in America? > > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-15/abc-raids-australian-federal-police-press-freedom/11309810 I came across this ranking of press freedom from Reporters Without Borders: https://rsf.org/en/ranking The US is at number 45 out of 180 countries. North Korea is number 180 and China is a little higher at number 177. Norway is first, followed by Finland and Denmark. Australia is number 26. > > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 14:21:32 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:21:32 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: <030b01d6175f$ad013dc0$0703b940$@rainier66.com> References: <838f71de-edc4-fcff-9626-5501fa3f6f81@zaiboc.net> <030b01d6175f$ad013dc0$0703b940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 08:10, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > -- > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > > > Ja of course. ... > > > Sorry, Spike. This wasn't directed at you. Somehow I missed off Giulio's > remark "Just happens *physically*", which was in response to me saying > "just happens magically". > > -- > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > > > > > No worries Ben, religion always requires inventiveness and imagination. > > > > The problem is when a hardcore empiricist examines his own long-held religious convictions. > > > > I had an experience that may be relevant, a commend made by the bride of my friend from Washington who lives near Mount Peak. She was well aware of my philosophical path. Her comment went along these lines: > > > > If atheism is right, then the things we do in this life are irrelevant for they all lead to the same place in a short enough time. Even if we think of our children and how to improve their world, that too is irrelevant for they too face the same short time in a meaningless existence with no real destiny, and so on with their children. The notion that all of our existence is all perfectly meaningless is not acceptable. Therefore, we assume there is a point to it all. > > Relevance and meaning are value judgements made up by humans, without any objective basis. There is nothing in physics to say that a speck of dust is less meaningful than a galaxy. > I chose to not contest the notion. She too seemed to be able to do something I am utterly unable to do: choose one?s belief. I am one who cannot choose what I believe, for if I could, I would never have rejected my comfortable religion to start with. I was happy there. It was very difficult for me when I began to realize it was all wrong, and I don?t feel as if I had the option to both believe and disbelieve at the same time. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 14:22:40 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:22:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I believe that means "or", as in "P or not P". On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 6:47 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This sounds way cool, if I could understand. > Help me out, here. What does the "v" in "P v -P" mean? > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 1:46 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 11:02, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I can prove that God may exist: >>> >>> P = God exists >>> >> -P = God does not exist >>> P v -P >>> QED >>> >> >> This is an assertion that it is not logically impossible for God to >> exist, which is reasonable. >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:28:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:28:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 9:03 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: I can prove that God may exist: > > P = God exists > >> -P = God does not exist > P v -P > QED > So you have proved that God exists OR God does not exist, but you could make the proof more general by replacing "P = God exists" with "P = X exists". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:29:40 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:29:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] logic Message-ID: If you can prove that God could exist by symbolic logic, higher math, or whatever you are using, then could you say the same thing for the Devil. empathy, witchcraft, a wife's love - just about anything? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:37:38 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:37:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] plasma Message-ID: I just learned that virus survivors can donate plasma for those who are suffering from it and may save lives. Urge those you know who have had it (Spike?) to donate. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:40:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:40:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] birth Message-ID: A severe case of lack of patience while searching: A woman was taking her in-labor adult daughter to the hospital in an SUV, and crashed on slick roads. The sequence is clear because the police officers who arrived quickly were wearing body cameras. The daughter tells an officer, ?I gave birth in the car,? but ?couldn?t find? it after the crash. As some officers search the area around the SUV, Ofc. Cepeda Huff learned the woman was sitting in the back seat, and searched there. He found the baby under the seat in front of where she was sitting. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:42:44 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:42:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I thought 'v' was "or', but how does that get you to logically possible? On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:37 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I believe that means "or", as in "P or not P". > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 6:47 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> This sounds way cool, if I could understand. >> Help me out, here. What does the "v" in "P v -P" mean? >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 1:46 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 11:02, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I can prove that God may exist: >>>> >>>> P = God exists >>>> >> -P = God does not exist >>>> P v -P >>>> QED >>>> >>> >>> This is an assertion that it is not logically impossible for God to >>> exist, which is reasonable. >>> >>>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 16:21:29 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:21:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As I started in the other thread, I would say not. Tell me if line of ?proof? works: In the other thread, we had crossed the ?is-aught ? line with: 1. Survival (more fit) is better than non survival (less fit). 2. All sufficiently complex, or turing complete , system must evolutionarily progress towards that which is better. 3. All sufficiently complex system must progress towards god, or the best possible. And a corollary proves there can't be 'true evil'. 1. No sufficiently complex system can 'devolve'. 2. God is possible, true evil isn't possible. On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If you can prove that God could exist by symbolic logic, higher math, or > whatever you are using, then could you say the same thing for the Devil. > empathy, witchcraft, a wife's love - just about anything? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 16:31:08 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:31:08 -0600 Subject: [ExI] logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And can't we go further? 1. Survival (more fit) is better than non survival (less fit). 2. All sufficiently complex, or turing complete , system must evolutionarily progress towards that which is better. 3. All sufficiently complex system must progress towards god, or the best possible. 4. If there is still evil, God (perfection) doesn't exist, by definition. And a corollary proves there can't be 'true evil'. 1. No sufficiently complex system can 'devolve'. So we have all of: 1. God (perfection) does not yet exist. 2. Evil can't exist. 3. All systems must progress away from evil and towards perfection/god. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 21 16:56:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:56:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] plasma In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006f01d617fd$d49be6c0$7dd3b440$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 8:38 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] plasma I just learned that virus survivors can donate plasma for those who are suffering from it and may save lives. Urge those you know who have had it (Spike?) to donate. bill w I plan to do that after the quarantine expires. My doctor advised staying back until then. Fortunately our local case load is merciful and manageable. I do what she says. The one time I didn?t, things went badly and could have been much worse. Check this: https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-us-maps-and-cases/ Clearly the governors of New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Connecticut are to blame, the scoundrels. Or mass transit is to blame: that is something all four of those states share, and it has the added bonus that it is a perfectly plausible vector. It would be interesting to see a comparison with European cities where they have subways and trains. Does the case load follow those tracks? They do in New York. The worrisome part: I contracted the viral pneumonia (we don?t know if it was C-19) about a week after I donated blood. None of the workers wore masks in December. If I caught whatever that was somewhere, good chance that is where. I also had contact with another scout parent when we did Boards of Review, a stewardess who regularly travels to China, and we had a small room. I think those two sources are the most plausible, but of course it could be just a grocery store source: we have a lot of regular China-travelers in this neighborhood. There was a huge howl of local protest on 31 January when travel restrictions to and from China went in place: the US had no C-19 related deaths at that time and plenty of locals have manufacturing businesses in China, which were immediately impacted. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 17:14:06 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:14:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] plasma In-Reply-To: <006f01d617fd$d49be6c0$7dd3b440$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d617fd$d49be6c0$7dd3b440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I had to give up donating blood. They listened to my heart and waved me off. Now every doctor I go to listens and nobody says anything and I went to a heart doctor who said I was fine and don't come back unless you have symptoms. So I don't know why they won't let me. I do have PVCs (no plastic pipe: preventricvular contractions, supposedly harmless, and a little leak in the atrial valve, which all above say is normal.) So I am frustrated. Do you think that the freedom of worship means that they can congregate all they want? bill w On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2020 8:38 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* [ExI] plasma > > > > I just learned that virus survivors can donate plasma for those who are > suffering from it and may save lives. > > > > Urge those you know who have had it (Spike?) to donate. > > > > bill w > > > > > > I plan to do that after the quarantine expires. My doctor advised staying > back until then. Fortunately our local case load is merciful and > manageable. I do what she says. The one time I didn?t, things went badly > and could have been much worse. > > > > Check this: > > > > https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-us-maps-and-cases/ > > > > Clearly the governors of New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and > Connecticut are to blame, the scoundrels. > > > > Or mass transit is to blame: that is something all four of those states > share, and it has the added bonus that it is a perfectly plausible vector. > > > > It would be interesting to see a comparison with European cities where > they have subways and trains. Does the case load follow those tracks? > They do in New York. > > > > The worrisome part: I contracted the viral pneumonia (we don?t know if it > was C-19) about a week after I donated blood. None of the workers wore > masks in December. If I caught whatever that was somewhere, good chance > that is where. > > > > I also had contact with another scout parent when we did Boards of Review, > a stewardess who regularly travels to China, and we had a small room. I > think those two sources are the most plausible, but of course it could be > just a grocery store source: we have a lot of regular China-travelers in > this neighborhood. There was a huge howl of local protest on 31 January > when travel restrictions to and from China went in place: the US had no > C-19 related deaths at that time and plenty of locals have manufacturing > businesses in China, which were immediately impacted. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Apr 21 17:17:30 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:17:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> On 21/04/2020 15:21, Giulio Prisco wrote: > To those fundamentalists ... who can't live without policing thoughts, my message is: What business of yours is > policing the belief, or the lack of belief, of others? > I believe in everyone's right to pursue meaning and happiness in their > own personal way Amen to that. As long as it remains a private matter. The trouble begins when the beliefs or convictions of one person tell them that they have the right to dictate the beliefs, convictions, behaviour, etc., of others. These don't have to be religious beliefs or convictions, of course, but in practice they usually are, to an overwhelming extent. The trouble becomes especially bad when beliefs are wormed into legislation, affecting whole populations. I don't need to give examples, almost every country in the world suffers from this, but some are a lot worse than others. There's also a big difference between 'policing someones belief' and 'arguing for or against a viewpoint'. That includes satire and ridicule. I think everyone has the right to be offended, but no-one has the right to prevent others from giving offence, as many muslims, christians, and others are constantly trying to do. -- Ben Zaiboc From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 17:34:09 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:34:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I would consider (P v -P) to be congruent to (maybe P) On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 12:05 Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I thought 'v' was "or', but how does that get you to logically possible? > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:37 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I believe that means "or", as in "P or not P". >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 6:47 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> This sounds way cool, if I could understand. >>> Help me out, here. What does the "v" in "P v -P" mean? >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 1:46 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 11:02, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I can prove that God may exist: >>>>> >>>>> P = God exists >>>>> >> -P = God does not exist >>>>> P v -P >>>>> QED >>>>> >>>> >>>> This is an assertion that it is not logically impossible for God to >>>> exist, which is reasonable. >>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 21 17:41:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:41:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] plasma In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d617fd$d49be6c0$7dd3b440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009a01d61804$194dc030$4be94090$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] plasma >?I had to give up donating blood. They listened to my heart and waved me off. ?So I am frustrated? Luxury! I had one doctor, one silly yahoo, write in my medical records 30 yrs ago that I was anorexic, the silly ass. After that, every time, ever single time? I have a new doctor, they interview me for 20 minutes fishing around to see if it is some kind of self-starvation thing I have going. It isn?t, but my first task is convincing the doctor: I just don?t eat much. Then about 15 yrs ago I was assigned a doctor who is herself a boney one and doesn?t eat, so she understands. Fortunately she is also a very competent doctor and has never given me bad advice. Furthermore? she is young enough that she will likely still be in practice when it is time for me to shuffle off this mortal coil, so cool, I don?t need to break in a new doctor. >?Do you think that the freedom of worship means that they can congregate all they want? bill w Interesting legal question: the governor issued orders, but he didn?t declare a state of emergency. So his orders aren?t law. To make a state law, the legislature has to pass it, but they didn?t do that, so congregating isn?t an actual violation of law. They wrote a few 50 dollar violation fines about a month ago to businesses that refused to close, but I don?t see that the local court can collect on those if the business owner refuses to pay. One of the biggest dangers I can see in these times is how willingly free citizens handed away their civil rights. If they don?t seize them back immediately after the quarantine, those civil rights may never return. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 18:53:34 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:53:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> Well, I think some people need (psychologically) to have something external which gives their lives meaning. I find myself to be that kind of person, but it?s okay. A lot of people want to be part of something bigger than themselves. And it can be hard for people to understand that it is possible without God. SR Ballard > On Apr 21, 2020, at 6:52 AM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 21/04/2020 01:01, Spike wrote: > "I had an experience that may be relevant, a commend made by the bride of my friend from Washington who lives near Mount Peak. She was well aware of my philosophical path. Her comment went along these lines: > > If atheism is right, then the things we do in this life are irrelevant for they all lead to the same place in a short enough time. Even if we think of our children and how to improve their world, that too is irrelevant for they too face the same short time in a meaningless existence with no real destiny, and so on with their children. The notion that all of our existence is all perfectly meaningless is not acceptable. Therefore, we assume there is a point to it all." > > > > I would take issue with the idea that atheism can be right or wrong. It's not asserting anything, it's just a lack of belief. It may lead to assertions which may be right or wrong, but I don't think it can be right or wrong in itself. > > Apart from that, the statement "then the things we do in this life are irrelevant" is a bit of a stretch (actually I really object to it, see below). I remember when I was young, and my dad was keen to show me the stars, and get me to understand just how damned many of them are up there. We had a pair of powerful binoculars, and I saw a mind-boggling number of stars. And I knew that what I was seeing was just the teeniest tiniest fraction of what was actually there. That was a really humbling experience, and made me think just how utterly insignificant, tiny and fleeting everything we are and know is. The funny thing is, I didn't find this at all depressing. I found it enormously liberating, and felt kind of buoyed up by it. I really think I discovered the meaning of life at that moment (My meaning of life, I should say): "You Decide". That was a real revelation to me, and I still feel exhilarated and even uplifted by it now, decades later. Such a contrast to the dreary oppression of christianity and its bedfellows! > > That's my answer if anyone ever asks me what the meaning of life is. You Decide. It works on a couple of levels, and it reinforced my atheism which was developing around that time (I was reading a great big fancy old leather-and-brass-bound bible, which was an enormous help. I thoroughly recommend actually reading the bible (and the koran, etc.), for anyone who has a tendency to think there might be more to all this than a bunch of people making things up). > > The reason I find the 'things we do are irrelevant' remark objectionable is that it assumes that if there are gods, the things we do are not irrelevant and meaningless, but if there aren't, they are. Why should that be? Even if gods exist, they are just another kind of being. What makes our actions meaningful if they exist, but not if they don't? It sounds kind of stupid when you think about it. > > There's only one person who has the right to decide if my life, my decisions and actions and thoughts, are meaningful or not. And it's not some beardy insecure bully who lives in the sky (even if such a being really does exist). I long ago decided that if this much-touted god turns out to be real, it doesn't deserve even my respect, much less 'worship'. In fact, it needs a bloody good talking-to, at the very least. > > "Therefore, we assume there is a point to it all". What point would that be? Just think about it. > -- > Ben Zaiboc > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 19:16:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:16:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: no-one has the right to prevent others from giving offence, as many muslims, christians, and others are constantly trying to do. Ben Zaiboc *What that tells this psychologist is that those people have a shaky belief system - sort of like a weak ego that cannot stand criticism. One strong in belief can enjoy satire, jokes, drawings, or any kind of criticism. We do know that the radicals in each group are a small minority.* *How would you react if someone challenged your belief in science? With patience, I hope, a shake of the head, perhaps a tendency to preach the values of science, but nothing remotely violent or even harsh.* *bill w* On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:24 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 21/04/2020 15:21, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > To those fundamentalists ... who can't live without policing thoughts, > my message is: What business of yours is > > policing the belief, or the lack of belief, of others? > > I believe in everyone's right to pursue meaning and happiness in their > > own personal way > > Amen to that. As long as it remains a private matter. > > The trouble begins when the beliefs or convictions of one person tell > them that they have the right to dictate the beliefs, convictions, > behaviour, etc., of others. These don't have to be religious beliefs or > convictions, of course, but in practice they usually are, to an > overwhelming extent. > > The trouble becomes especially bad when beliefs are wormed into > legislation, affecting whole populations. I don't need to give examples, > almost every country in the world suffers from this, but some are a lot > worse than others. > > There's also a big difference between 'policing someones belief' and > 'arguing for or against a viewpoint'. That includes satire and ridicule. > I think everyone has the right to be offended, but no-one has the right > to prevent others from giving offence, as many muslims, christians, and > others are constantly trying to do. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 19:20:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:20:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] plasma In-Reply-To: <009a01d61804$194dc030$4be94090$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d617fd$d49be6c0$7dd3b440$@rainier66.com> <009a01d61804$194dc030$4be94090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: When I get anything from my doctor about my lifestyle, I just point at my perfect blood work. Hemoglobin was a tad low so I told him I'd eat some stew. If they don?t seize them back immediately after the quarantine, those civil rights may never return. ever the pessimist - bill w On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] plasma > > > > >?I had to give up donating blood. They listened to my heart and waved > me off. ?So I am frustrated? > > > > Luxury! I had one doctor, one silly yahoo, write in my medical records 30 > yrs ago that I was anorexic, the silly ass. After that, every time, ever > single time? I have a new doctor, they interview me for 20 minutes fishing > around to see if it is some kind of self-starvation thing I have going. It > isn?t, but my first task is convincing the doctor: I just don?t eat much. > Then about 15 yrs ago I was assigned a doctor who is herself a boney one > and doesn?t eat, so she understands. Fortunately she is also a very > competent doctor and has never given me bad advice. Furthermore? she is > young enough that she will likely still be in practice when it is time for > me to shuffle off this mortal coil, so cool, I don?t need to break in a new > doctor. > > > > >?Do you think that the freedom of worship means that they can congregate > all they want? > > > > bill w > > > > Interesting legal question: the governor issued orders, but he didn?t > declare a state of emergency. So his orders aren?t law. To make a state > law, the legislature has to pass it, but they didn?t do that, so > congregating isn?t an actual violation of law. > > > > They wrote a few 50 dollar violation fines about a month ago to businesses > that refused to close, but I don?t see that the local court can collect on > those if the business owner refuses to pay. > > > > One of the biggest dangers I can see in these times is how willingly free > citizens handed away their civil rights. If they don?t seize them back > immediately after the quarantine, those civil rights may never return. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 19:28:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:28:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> Message-ID: A lot of people want to be part of something bigger than themselves. And it can be hard for people to understand that it is possible without God.SR Ballard Churches et al have big meetings places often, as in the Catholic, beautiful architechture, beautiful music, and so on - perhaps a sip of wine. No other group that could give meaning to life has anything remotely similar. And who do you see recruiting to such secular groups? bill wfffffffdchur On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 1:56 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, I think some people need (psychologically) to have something > external which gives their lives meaning. I find myself to be that kind of > person, but it?s okay. > > A lot of people want to be part of something bigger than themselves. And > it can be hard for people to understand that it is possible without God. > > SR Ballard > > On Apr 21, 2020, at 6:52 AM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On 21/04/2020 01:01, Spike wrote: > "I had an experience that may be relevant, a commend made by the bride of > my friend from Washington who lives near Mount Peak. She was well aware of > my philosophical path. Her comment went along these lines: > > If atheism is right, then the things we do in this life are irrelevant for > they all lead to the same place in a short enough time. Even if we think > of our children and how to improve their world, that too is irrelevant for > they too face the same short time in a meaningless existence with no real > destiny, and so on with their children. The notion that all of our > existence is all perfectly meaningless is not acceptable. Therefore, we > assume there is a point to it all." > > > > I would take issue with the idea that atheism can be right or wrong. It's > not asserting anything, it's just a lack of belief. It may lead to > assertions which may be right or wrong, but I don't think it can be right > or wrong in itself. > > Apart from that, the statement "then the things we do in this life are > irrelevant" is a bit of a stretch (actually I really object to it, see > below). I remember when I was young, and my dad was keen to show me the > stars, and get me to understand just how damned many of them are up there. > We had a pair of powerful binoculars, and I saw a mind-boggling number of > stars. And I knew that what I was seeing was just the teeniest tiniest > fraction of what was actually there. That was a really humbling experience, > and made me think just how utterly insignificant, tiny and fleeting > everything we are and know is. The funny thing is, I didn't find this at > all depressing. I found it enormously liberating, and felt kind of buoyed > up by it. I really think I discovered the meaning of life at that moment ( > *My* meaning of life, I should say): "You Decide". That was a real > revelation to me, and I still feel exhilarated and even uplifted by it now, > decades later. Such a contrast to the dreary oppression of christianity and > its bedfellows! > > That's my answer if anyone ever asks me what the meaning of life is. You > Decide. It works on a couple of levels, and it reinforced my atheism which > was developing around that time (I was reading a great big fancy old > leather-and-brass-bound bible, which was an enormous help. I thoroughly > recommend actually reading the bible (and the koran, etc.), for anyone who > has a tendency to think there might be more to all this than a bunch of > people making things up). > > The reason I find the 'things we do are irrelevant' remark objectionable > is that it assumes that if there are gods, the things we do are not > irrelevant and meaningless, but if there aren't, they are. Why should that > be? Even if gods exist, they are just another kind of being. What makes our > actions meaningful if they exist, but not if they don't? It sounds kind of > stupid when you think about it. > > There's only one person who has the right to decide if my life, my > decisions and actions and thoughts, are meaningful or not. And it's not > some beardy insecure bully who lives in the sky (even if such a being > really does exist). I long ago decided that if this much-touted god turns > out to be real, it doesn't deserve even my respect, much less 'worship'. In > fact, it needs a bloody good talking-to, at the very least. > > "Therefore, we assume there is a point to it all". What point would that > be? Just think about it. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 20:02:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:02:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:24 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > 1. *Survival (more fit) is better than non survival (less fit).* > 2. *All sufficiently complex, or turing complete > , system must > evolutionarily progress towards that which is better.* > 3. *All sufficiently complex system must progress towards god, or the > best possible.* > > But "better" is a subjective word, to Evolution "better" means more copies and "best" means the most copies, it means nothing more. So to Evolution COVOD-19 is very good indeed. > > *No sufficiently complex system can 'devolve'.* Parasites devolve. The ansestors of Leeches, tapeworms and all parasites were all more complex than what they have become that you see today. The advantage in being a parasite is that you can simplify yourself by enslaving another creature to do many of the metabolic things you previously had to do yourself. To Evolution that is a very virtuous strategy because it allows you to put a larger percentage of your finite resources into reproduction which is the ultimate good. > > *God is possible, true evil isn't possible.* I can't imagine a crueler way of making complex objects, like a conscious brain for example, than Darwinian Evolution. If that's the method an omnipotent being decided to do it when He could have done it by just snapping His metaphorical fingers then He isn't a God, He is a demon of ultimate evil. I agree with the Bible Thumpers on one thing, Darwinian Evolution and a benelavent God are not compatible ideas. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 21 20:22:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:22:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> >>>?Spike wrote: "I had an experience that may be relevant, a commend made by the bride of my friend from Washington who lives near Mount Peak. She was well aware of my philosophical path. Her comment went along these lines: If atheism is right, then the things we do in this life are irrelevant for they all lead to the same place in a short enough time. Even if we think of our children and how to improve their world, that too is irrelevant for they too face the same short time in a meaningless existence with no real destiny, and so on with their children. The notion that all of our existence is all perfectly meaningless is not acceptable. Therefore, we assume there is a point to it all."? >>?A lot of people want to be part of something bigger than themselves. And it can be hard for people to understand that it is possible without God. SR Ballard >?Churches et al have big meetings places often, as in the Catholic, beautiful architechture, beautiful music, and so on - perhaps a sip of wine. No other group that could give meaning to life has anything remotely similar. And who do you see recruiting to such secular groups? bill wfffffffdchur Consider the scenario of a planet a few thousand light years distant, nice place, not too hot or cold, life evolves, eventually consciousness, technology, culture, all the stuff we have here, and they get up to about where humans were in about the 1860s: they figured out a lot of stuff, discovered Maxwell?s equations (those work there too) orbit mechanics (two areas of theory humans had worked out during the 1860s (while the Union and the rebs were popping cannon balls at each other (but well before radio.))) Then something bad happened, a disease perhaps that caused societal breakdown, and evolutionary pressure was against increasing intelligence. One could perhaps argue that there has been evolutionary pressure against increasing intelligence in every technologically-advanced human culture for the past 50 to 100 years and that the average intelligence of humanity is declining. OK so that level of tech was their pinnacle but they didn?t achieve radio, and so their artifacts are completely on the surface of that planet. They decay with age and are never discovered. No intelligence outside that planet ever knows they came and went. Gone without a trace. >From our point of view, the lives, struggles, everything about that civilization was completely irrelevant. If they don?t leave something to somehow be visible from the outside, they are irrelevant. Humans blasted out a signal into space in 1974. That signal is the brightest object in the galaxy at that frequency. If we end up going extinct, we could argue that signal differentiates us from complete irrelevance. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 20:35:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:35:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Humans blasted out a signal into space in 1974. That signal is the brightest object in the galaxy at that frequency. If we end up going extinct, we could argue that signal differentiates us from complete irrelevance. spike "Hey! Look at me. Look what I did! " - two year old showing Mama his bowel output. OK for two, how about 18? I had a guy who wanted me to come to the bathroom and look at his turd. It was quite impressive - maybe 18". This is how pathetic humans can be, no? If someone else doesn't appreciate me I am nothing. Maybe I am part solipsistic (is that possible?). If I am satisfied with my *garden, my piano playing, my cooking, my philosophies, then that's all I care for. That is not incompatible with being a sharer, as I am. But if others don't like my works, it's their loss. No reflection on me. bill w* On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >>>?Spike wrote: > "I had an experience that may be relevant, a commend made by the bride of > my friend from Washington who lives near Mount Peak. She was well aware of > my philosophical path. Her comment went along these lines: If atheism is > right, then the things we do in this life are irrelevant for they all lead > to the same place in a short enough time. Even if we think of our children > and how to improve their world, that too is irrelevant for they too face > the same short time in a meaningless existence with no real destiny, and so > on with their children. The notion that all of our existence is all > perfectly meaningless is not acceptable. Therefore, we assume there is a > point to it all."? > > >>?A lot of people want to be part of something bigger than themselves. > And it can be hard for people to understand that it is possible without > God. SR Ballard > > > > >?Churches et al have big meetings places often, as in the Catholic, > beautiful architechture, beautiful music, and so on - perhaps a sip of > wine. No other > > group that could give meaning to life has anything remotely similar. > And who > > do you see recruiting to such secular groups? bill wfffffffdchur > > > > > > > > Consider the scenario of a planet a few thousand light years distant, nice > place, not too hot or cold, life evolves, eventually consciousness, > technology, culture, all the stuff we have here, and they get up to about > where humans were in about the 1860s: they figured out a lot of stuff, > discovered Maxwell?s equations (those work there too) orbit mechanics (two > areas of theory humans had worked out during the 1860s (while the Union and > the rebs were popping cannon balls at each other (but well before radio.))) > > > > Then something bad happened, a disease perhaps that caused societal > breakdown, and evolutionary pressure was against increasing intelligence. > One could perhaps argue that there has been evolutionary pressure against > increasing intelligence in every technologically-advanced human culture for > the past 50 to 100 years and that the average intelligence of humanity is > declining. > > > > OK so that level of tech was their pinnacle but they didn?t achieve radio, > and so their artifacts are completely on the surface of that planet. They > decay with age and are never discovered. No intelligence outside that > planet ever knows they came and went. Gone without a trace. > > > > From our point of view, the lives, struggles, everything about that > civilization was completely irrelevant. If they don?t leave something to > somehow be visible from the outside, they are irrelevant. > > > > Humans blasted out a signal into space in 1974. That signal is the > brightest object in the galaxy at that frequency. If we end up going > extinct, we could argue that signal differentiates us from complete > irrelevance. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 21:35:29 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:35:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Atheism is clearly an assertion. If it wasn't, then "God does not exist" would be logically congruent to "meatballs don't exist" or "[anything] doesn't exist". Clearly the statement has informational content. Saying it's a lack of belief is a cop out. It is a belief because it is a logical assertion: God does not exist. Just own it for fucks sake. If you want to not have a belief, perhaps agnosticism is right for you. In fact, there is literally a branch of logic (predicate logic) which is designed to perfectly quantify statements of existence or non-existence. It's like saying that the phrase "There does not exist any polynomial with pi as a root" isn't a logic statement because it asserts non belief. You are objectively wrong, sorry to say. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 21:38:52 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:38:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> Message-ID: > No other group that could give meaning to life has anything remotely similar. And who do you see recruiting to such secular groups? bill wfffffffdchu High energy, big architecture, drinking, music: Concert Culture. No recruitment as far as I can really tell. Overarching, all-consuming meaning: non-religious cults. Insular political movements such as modern neo-Nazis, or ELF, ALF. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Wed Apr 22 00:11:36 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:11:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Exl] logic Message-ID: I think there is a flaw in the discussion of the proof(s) for the existance of God and that evil cannot evolve, and in fact should devolve, as it uses a parameter that is not objective, which is: "better". In evolution, systems evolve to increase their *fitness* parameter, which is a pretty rigourously defined parameter in the evolution literature. Here's a paper by Manfred Eigen on evolution, but there are lots of other papers on this topic. https://www.mit.edu/~kardar/research/seminars/HIV/articles/Eigen.pdf Another tendency of complex biological systems is that they evolve to increase their system complexity, or *information*. Neither of these patrameters is related to "better" in the sense of "not evil". There are nasty creatures - I'd call them evil, but that's just my opinion - that can be observed to have evolved, for example: komodo dragons, hippopottami, sharks, animals with rabies (the rabies virus being the evolutionary agent in question here), cowbirds, deer ticks, eyelash bacteria, crabgrass, grizzly bears, and wasps. Not an exhaustive list. But these creatures are all fitter than their ancestors, and are exquisitely designed for their evolutionary niche. Their biological design is more information rich than their ancestors :) And so, alas, I think the proof doesn't work and true evil remains possible, and can exist :( -Regina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 00:28:10 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:28:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 4:04 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I can't imagine a crueler way of making complex objects, like a conscious > brain for example, than Darwinian Evolution. If that's the method an > omnipotent being decided to do it when He could have done it by just > snapping His metaphorical fingers then He isn't a God, He is a demon of > ultimate evil. I agree with the Bible Thumpers on one thing, Darwinian > Evolution and a benelavent God are not compatible ideas. > Yes--God is not good. It is neutral. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 22 05:13:57 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 05:13:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <45689190.501224.1587532437796@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 01:23:18 PM PDT, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: ? Consider the scenario of a planet a few thousand light years distant, nice place, not too hot or cold, life evolves, eventually consciousness, technology, culture, all the stuff we have here, and they get up to about where humans were in about the 1860s: they figured out a lot of stuff, discovered Maxwell?s equations (those work there too) orbit mechanics (two areas of theory humans had worked out during the 1860s (while the Union and the rebs were popping cannon balls at each other (but well before radio.))) ? Then something bad happened, a disease perhaps that caused societal breakdown, and evolutionary pressure was against increasing intelligence.? One could perhaps argue that there has been evolutionary pressure against increasing intelligence in every technologically-advanced human culture for the past 50 to 100 years and that the average intelligence of humanity is declining. ? OK so that level of tech was their pinnacle but they didn?t achieve radio, and so their artifacts are completely on the surface of that planet.? They decay with age and are never discovered.? No intelligence outside that planet ever knows they came and went.? Gone without a trace. ? >From our point of view, the lives, struggles, everything about that civilization was completely irrelevant.? If they don?t leave something to somehow be visible from the outside, they are irrelevant. ? Humans blasted out a signal into space in 1974.? That signal is the brightest object in the galaxy at that frequency.? If we end up going extinct, we could argue that signal differentiates us from complete irrelevance. ? spike Worry not, Spike, the universe remembers. The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of the universe always increases. That means that information just sort of happens and then sticks around. Erasing information on the other hand takes a lot of work and that is the gist of Landauer's Law.. Think about the impact that the age of dinosaurs has had on modern culture. If we were to go extinct tomorrow, then imagine the impact that finding the Statue of Liberty would have on some none-human archaeologist in a few billion years. I have spent some time now studying semantics and the meaning of meaning. There actually exists two kinds of meaning: purport and import. Purport is meaning intended by the sender of a message. Import is the meaning as interpreted by the recipient of a message. Consider your life to be your message to the world. So tailor your life according to your intentions, and let others interpret the meaning of your life as they will. Stuart LaForge "Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather he must recognize that it is he who is asked." - Victor Frankl ? From giulio at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 05:40:07 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:40:07 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Of course I am aware of the violent authoritarian practices of organized religions in history. But looking at the more recent history of the West, I find that the religion of atheism, when sanctioned by state power, has been more authoritarian. Here in Eastern Europe everyone has horror stories to tell about how someone in their family was violently harassed (I am talking of real harassment, sticks and stones, not words) by a state atheist regime for wearing a cross or going to church. This confirms my main (actually only) point: That atheism IS a religion because it acts like one. Re "a big difference between 'policing someones belief' and 'arguing for or against a viewpoint'" - I agree, and I enjoy polite and respectful discussions with atheists. But my experience tells me that nobody will change their mind after discussing these things. So I tend not to participate too much in these discussions, and I don't try to convert atheists. Better live and let live, and work together on common goals. On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 7:23 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 21/04/2020 15:21, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > To those fundamentalists ... who can't live without policing thoughts, my message is: What business of yours is > > policing the belief, or the lack of belief, of others? > > I believe in everyone's right to pursue meaning and happiness in their > > own personal way > > Amen to that. As long as it remains a private matter. > > The trouble begins when the beliefs or convictions of one person tell > them that they have the right to dictate the beliefs, convictions, > behaviour, etc., of others. These don't have to be religious beliefs or > convictions, of course, but in practice they usually are, to an > overwhelming extent. > > The trouble becomes especially bad when beliefs are wormed into > legislation, affecting whole populations. I don't need to give examples, > almost every country in the world suffers from this, but some are a lot > worse than others. > > There's also a big difference between 'policing someones belief' and > 'arguing for or against a viewpoint'. That includes satire and ridicule. > I think everyone has the right to be offended, but no-one has the right > to prevent others from giving offence, as many muslims, christians, and > others are constantly trying to do. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 05:41:28 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:41:28 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: John, I expect better arguments from you!!! :-) Perhaps you have more realistic examples? On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:14 PM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 2:04 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > >> > here and now, in the cultural climate of the West, especially in academy and media, thought policing is mainly practiced by atheists against believers. > > > Speaking of the Thought Police and George Orwell, it would be entirely appropriate for academics to have a strong bias against an Astronomy professor who believed the universe was created on October 23 4004 BC, or a professor of Evolutionary Biology who thought every word of the Noah Ark story was literally true because, according to my Newspeak dictionary, the best word to describe that sort of behavior is Doublethink. And that is not conducive to competence or even sanity. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 06:47:24 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:47:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <5162a9ec-d4e5-7ac5-cc2f-b29f7057b64a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: By ignoring what you are probably thinking of. The only axiom considered is that "P means God exists". Applying a not to both sides, "not P means God does not exist". These are mutually exclusive states, so "(P or not P) is true". Therefore...we can conclude nothing about God's existence just because the statement "God exists" itself exists and can be given a label. On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 9:05 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I thought 'v' was "or', but how does that get you to logically possible? > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:37 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I believe that means "or", as in "P or not P". >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 6:47 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> This sounds way cool, if I could understand. >>> Help me out, here. What does the "v" in "P v -P" mean? >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 1:46 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 at 11:02, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I can prove that God may exist: >>>>> >>>>> P = God exists >>>>> >> -P = God does not exist >>>>> P v -P >>>>> QED >>>>> >>>> >>>> This is an assertion that it is not logically impossible for God to >>>> exist, which is reasonable. >>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Apr 22 08:01:27 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:01:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c5026e5-b7b5-9237-674b-0f431eef605c@zaiboc.net> On 22/04/2020 01:12, bill w wrote: > *How would you react if someone challenged your belief in science? > With patience, I hope, a shake of the head, perhaps a tendency to > preach the values of science* I don't have a belief in science to be challenged. Any challenge to the scientific method (which currently seems to me to be the best way of understanding the world) would be evaluated in the same way as anything else, and if it turned out to be a valid challenge, showing there was a better method, I'd adopt the better method. It's possible that the scientific method as we know it now, is improvable. I'd welcome any improvement. A? challenge such as "but WHY do you think the scientific method is the best way of understanding the world?" is easy to answer: Because it's the only system that has been shown consistently to work. So it makes sense to use it. It has been demonstrated, again and again, that sandbags are better than prayers when it comes to flood defence, for example. I think that's the key thing. I don't 'believe' in science, i use it. So I'd rephrase the question to "How would you react if someone challenged the superiority of the scientific method over belief?" Sometimes I'm patient, sometimes not, but I'd just point to some of the innumerable instances where science worked and belief did not. My own attitude to these things is simply 'go with what works'. If prayer reliably restored amputated limbs, and I lost a limb, do you think I'd refuse to pray? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 11:11:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:11:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:51 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> John, I expect better arguments from you!!! :-) Perhaps you have more > realistic examples?* > In 1984 Doctor Leonard Lee Bailey, a Seventh-day Adventist performed the first baboon to human heart transplant in a hospital run by that same religion. The patient lived for less than a month before the heart was powerfully rejected just as nearly all biologists predicted it would be. Dr. Bailey was criticised and asked why he didn't pick a primate that was evolutionarily more closely related to humans, he replied "*Er, I find that difficult to answer. You see, I don't believe in evolution.*" I don't want my doctor to engage in doublethink, or my president. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 11:50:35 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:50:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:43 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I find that the religion of atheism* [...] By "religion" I mean an organization that claims to have important facts about an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe, so I can't say anything specific about what you say in the above because I'm not familiar with that religion. > > > * > everyone has horror stories to tell about how someone in their family > was violently harassed (I am talking of real harassment, sticks and stones, > not words) by a state atheist regime for wearing a cross or going to > church.* > I grant you that one religion persecuting another religion is very very far from rare, in fact it's pretty much the norm, but logically it would be premature to jump to the conclusion that if organization X persecutes religion Y then organization X must be a religion. Eating shit will almost always cause somebody to vomit, but if somebody is vomiting that doesn't prove they've eaten shit. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 12:04:55 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:04:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 4:25 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > From our point of view, the lives, struggles, everything about that > civilization was completely irrelevant. If they don?t leave something to > somehow be visible from the outside, they are irrelevant. > > > > Humans blasted out a signal into space in 1974. That signal is the > brightest object in the galaxy at that frequency. If we end up going > extinct, we could argue that signal differentiates us from complete > irrelevance. > It's all about POV. Yes, the lost civilization is irrelevant to us. To them I'm sure their lives mattered. We sent a signal. Whoop de do. That doesn't make me feel more relevant. What if no intelligence ever receives the signal? Are we still more relevant? I don't measure my life by the impact I've had on the Universe, I measure it by how I feel about my accomplishments and impact I've had on the lives of friends, family, and strangers I've interacted with. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 12:15:11 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:15:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 5:38 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Atheism is clearly an assertion. If it wasn't, then "God does not exist" > would be logically congruent to "meatballs don't exist" or "[anything] > doesn't exist". Clearly the statement has informational content. Saying > it's a lack of belief is a cop out. It is a belief because it is a logical > assertion: God does not exist. Just own it for fucks sake. If you want to > not have a belief, perhaps agnosticism is right for you. > I don't think God, in the Judeo-Christian sense, exists. I consider myself an atheist, yet, I'm willing to admit there's a tiny probability that I'm wrong. Agnosticism is too weak, in my opinion, for how I feel. Bottom line: I don't think the labels are too important. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 22 13:04:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:04:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: <45689190.501224.1587532437796@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> <45689190.501224.1587532437796@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005501d618a6$a06c05c0$e1441140$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) On Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 01:23:18 PM PDT, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>... If they don?t leave something to somehow be visible from the outside, they are irrelevant. Humans blasted out a signal into space in 1974. That signal is the brightest object in the galaxy at that frequency. If we end up going extinct, we could argue that signal differentiates us from complete irrelevance...spike >...Worry not, Spike, the universe remembers.... Think about the impact that the age of dinosaurs has had on modern culture. If we were to go extinct tomorrow, then imagine the impact that finding the Statue of Liberty would have on some none-human archaeologist in a few billion years... Stuart Cool idea, but your example fails in the numbers: the statue of liberty is made of a material sufficiently reactive with oxygen, catalyzed by sea salt that in a billion years there would be no indication of a statue. The site would be anomalously high in copper and zinc. The 1974 radio blast is our most persistent signal, but outside of that, we have very little that would remain after even a few million years. We modern humans are very plentiful, but we dispose of ourselves in a manner not conducive to making fossils. >...Consider your life to be your message to the world.... Stuart LaForge My most persistent message to the world will be the stuff I posted on this site. Now there's a scary thought. Heeeeeeyyyy, that's an idea: create a business for those who want to be million year-fossils, as a message to future generations and life forms. It could even work with cryonics: your body, pay someone else to let them use their head after they are done with it (they could even have it on there at their funeral) then afterwards put it with your body, fill the thing with some kind of stable acrylic polymer resin (like the stuff they use to make a souvenir (such as those who get a later-life circumcision and have a sense of humor (put it in that stuff, keep it in your desk, bring it out when your company won't go away, that sorta thing.))) Make a big rectangular box, fill it with that stuff, in ya go, someone else's head (preferably someone better looking than I am) put an ID plate in there, the stuff hardens, into the ground near the sea where some future lifeform might want to build something that needs a parking structure so their bulldozer finds you. We might be able to put together a viable business with that. Better idea: same notion, preserve your remains in acrylic polymer but we charge extra to remove adipose and insert silicon prosthetics to make the corpse look great for the next several million years. Stuart forget those hangars over there at Moffett. We could make a buttload off this notion. Or rather I could, then I would say nice things about your giving me the idea, by mentioning the Statue of Liberty, which of course leads directly to the notion of preserving cosmetically enhanced corpses in resin blocks for future archaeologists for insane profits. spike (Note, that last part is a joke. There is no such thing as insane profits. All profits are sane.) From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 13:48:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:48:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: <45689190.501224.1587532437796@mail.yahoo.com> References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> <45689190.501224.1587532437796@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hayakawa, S. I., ed. *The Use and Misuse of Language*. I have spent some time now studying semantics stuart Delightful book billw On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 12:16 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 01:23:18 PM PDT, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Consider the scenario of a planet a few thousand light years distant, nice > place, not too hot or cold, life evolves, eventually consciousness, > technology, culture, all the stuff we have here, and they get up to about > where humans were in about the 1860s: they figured out a lot of stuff, > discovered Maxwell?s equations (those work there too) orbit mechanics (two > areas of theory humans had worked out during the 1860s (while the Union and > the rebs were popping cannon balls at each other (but well before radio.))) > > Then something bad happened, a disease perhaps that caused societal > breakdown, and evolutionary pressure was against increasing intelligence. > One could perhaps argue that there has been evolutionary pressure against > increasing intelligence in every technologically-advanced human culture for > the past 50 to 100 years and that the average intelligence of humanity is > declining. > > OK so that level of tech was their pinnacle but they didn?t achieve radio, > and so their artifacts are completely on the surface of that planet. They > decay with age and are never discovered. No intelligence outside that > planet ever knows they came and went. Gone without a trace. > > From our point of view, the lives, struggles, everything about that > civilization was completely irrelevant. If they don?t leave something to > somehow be visible from the outside, they are irrelevant. > > Humans blasted out a signal into space in 1974. That signal is the > brightest object in the galaxy at that frequency. If we end up going > extinct, we could argue that signal differentiates us from complete > irrelevance. > > spike > > Worry not, Spike, the universe remembers. The second law of thermodynamics > says that the entropy of the universe always increases. That means that > information just sort of happens and then sticks around. Erasing > information on the other hand takes a lot of work and that is the gist of > Landauer's Law.. Think about the impact that the age of dinosaurs has had > on modern culture. If we were to go extinct tomorrow, then imagine the > impact that finding the Statue of Liberty would have on some none-human > archaeologist in a few billion years. > > I have spent some time now studying semantics and the meaning of meaning. > There actually exists two kinds of meaning: purport and import. Purport is > meaning intended by the sender of a message. Import is the meaning as > interpreted by the recipient of a message. Consider your life to be your > message to the world. So tailor your life according to your intentions, and > let others interpret the meaning of your life as they will. > > Stuart LaForge > > "Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but > rather he must recognize that it is he who is asked." - Victor Frankl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 13:53:14 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:53:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: The religion of atheism claims to have the important fact, established without doubt, that an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe doesn't exist. Therefore it qualifies as a religion according to your definition. On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:09 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:43 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I find that the religion of atheism* [...] > > > By "religion" I mean an organization that claims to have important facts > about an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe, so I can't > say anything specific about what you say in the above because I'm not > familiar with that religion. > > >> >> >> * > everyone has horror stories to tell about how someone in their family >> was violently harassed (I am talking of real harassment, sticks and stones, >> not words) by a state atheist regime for wearing a cross or going to >> church.* >> > > I grant you that one religion persecuting another religion is very very > far from rare, in fact it's pretty much the norm, but logically it would be > premature to jump to the conclusion that if organization X persecutes > religion Y then organization X must be a religion. Eating shit will almost > always cause somebody to vomit, but if somebody is vomiting that doesn't > prove they've eaten shit. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 14:14:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:14:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> <76ADB131-50B2-4FED-9A55-7665D0E92836@gmail.com> <004b01d6181a$9e640660$db2c1320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 9:34 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Agnosticism is too weak, in my opinion, for how I feel. Bottom line: I > don't think the labels are too important.* I agree with both assertions, that's why I'm not embarrassed to say I'm an atheist and not an agnostic. It's the same reason I'm comfortable in saying "I don't believe in the tooth fairy" and don't feel obligated to say "the existence of the tooth fairy has not met the statistical 5 sigma standard required to claim a discovery". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 22 15:05:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:05:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] becoming a fossil, ip and governors, was: RE: No gods, no meaning? Message-ID: <008c01d618b7$791a0b00$6b4e2100$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat Damn, I might get sued. I want to patent the notion of taking your earthly remains, having your head frozen, buying some else's dead head, putting it with your body, using one of those ultrasound water jet wands they use to do liposuction to remove flab from your ass and injecting it into your chest and upper arms so you look like a humility champion, preserving your newly-sculpted body and younger better-looking head in a coffin-shaped block of clear epoxy-resin and placed where some revolting but intelligent creature might find it a few million years from now. I would like that to be my intellectual property, but if I did, Stuart Avantguardian LaForge would point out that it was his idea to start with, for he posted thus: >...Worry not, Spike...imagine the impact that finding the Statue of Liberty would have on some none-human archaeologist in a few billion years... Stuart LaForge ...which the casual observer can easily see leads directly to the notion of paying old spike money (lots of it) to become a great-looking fossil. Stuart could sit and wait for me to make a scandalous fortune off the idea, then sue my goddam brains out. Meanwhile...the governor of California is dealing with the consequences of his own actions. He wants to start opening up the state, but some cities are already opening up some functions, in possible defiance of state "orders" which never passed the state legislature so they aren't laws. Yesterday he was talking about what happens if cities just say OK go ahead and open your shops. He commented thus: ?I imagine there?ll be some examples of people just getting ahead of that collaborative spirit. And we may have to dial a little bit of that back.? Governor Newsom OK so now we have a governor who led the way in declaring marijuana legal in California when federal law still prohibits it in defiance of federal law, dealing with what happens if local governments declare opening your own shop legal in defiance of governor's orders, but without an actual state law to back it up. Power struggle! I think we need a showdown here, ja? Heh. Stuart, perhaps we can work out some kind of IP-sharing agreement? I will agree to take the profits, you can have all the credit for being the originator of the imaginative idea. spike From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Apr 22 08:37:36 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:37:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a73dff5-4cc6-4807-bbf9-469a0aac99e7@zaiboc.net> On 22/04/2020 01:12, Will Steinberg wrote: > Atheism is clearly an assertion.? If it wasn't, then "God does not > exist"... Whoa. You're saying atheism asserts "god does not exist"? You've heard the saying "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", right? Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, not a belief in the lack of gods. Completely different things (although many people don't seem to appreciate this). It's normally, in my experience, religious folks who claim that atheism is a belief system, in an attempt to 'demonstrate' that even the dreaded atheists /believe/ something. "See? Everybody believes! I believe there is a god, you believe there isn't!!". That's not how it works. I do not say "god does not exist" (Of course, the obvious first question in resonse to that would be "Which god are you talking about?", as we have records of literally thousands of gods, globally, throughout history. I once started counting them, but eventually gave up, after passing the 2000 mark, I think it was. Some people say this is nitpicking, and they are just different names for the same god. If so, it's one hell of a confused and contradictory being!). I don't even say "gods do not exist". How could I? I don't know that. I can't prove that. All I can say is "I don't believe in any gods". That's not a cop-out at all. Neither is it agnosticism. Agnosticism is nothing to do with belief, it's to do with knowledge (Gnosis). An agnostic doesn't /know/ if gods exist. I say I'm an atheist, a more precise description would be 'an agnostic atheist', because (obviously) i don't know if any gods exist (although I do suspect it's highly unlikely), but more importantly, I don't believe they do (again, note that this is not the same as "I believe they don't"). But that's more of a mouthful, and lots of people just get confused by it, so I just say 'atheist'. So, no, atheism is not an assertion. It's an opinion, or an attitude. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 15:18:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:18:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:01 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The religion of atheism claims to have the important fact, established > without doubt, that an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe > doesn't exist.* > Perhaps it does say that but I really couldn't say because I don't know anything about the religion of atheism. All I know is the scientific method never says something has been established beyond all doubt, although on occasion it does say some things are too silly to talk about. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Apr 22 08:44:17 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:44:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 71 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22/04/2020 01:12, Re Rose wrote: > Another tendency of complex biological systems is that they evolve to > increase their system complexity, or /information/. > This is new to me. Do you have any references for it? Viruses surely have to be simpler than their evolutionary predecessors? I can't see how they could have evolved from something even simpler. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 15:45:40 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:45:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: You've decided what is silly and you act like you're making objective claims. This is how you, John, argue: you state a silly claim that nobody here is ever making, and then you attack it and somehow feel good about yourself for destroying a straw man. I don't believe it's silly to believe that consciousness is universal. In fact, as a materialist, I think it is patently stupid to believe consciousness for some reason stops at the brain--a silly, 1700s, vitalist view--as opposed to believing that computation and information exchange are everywhere and thus consciousness is to (to considerably simplify my argument.) In fact, I believe you actually AGREE with me, but for some reason you are arguing against a stupid idea of God that nobody here even cares about. For other unrelated bullshit to dredge up, how about those damn Hawaiian natives and their stupid gods? Eh? Is that bait tempting enough? On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 11:37 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:01 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> The religion of atheism claims to have the important fact, established >> without doubt, that an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe >> doesn't exist.* >> > > Perhaps it does say that but I really couldn't say because I don't know > anything about the religion of atheism. All I know is the scientific > method never says something has been established beyond all doubt, although > on occasion it does say some things are too silly to talk about. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 15:46:03 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:46:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Too* On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 11:45 Will Steinberg wrote: > You've decided what is silly and you act like you're making objective > claims. This is how you, John, argue: you state a silly claim that nobody > here is ever making, and then you attack it and somehow feel good about > yourself for destroying a straw man. > > I don't believe it's silly to believe that consciousness is universal. In > fact, as a materialist, I think it is patently stupid to believe > consciousness for some reason stops at the brain--a silly, 1700s, vitalist > view--as opposed to believing that computation and information exchange are > everywhere and thus consciousness is to (to considerably simplify my > argument.) > > In fact, I believe you actually AGREE with me, but for some reason you are > arguing against a stupid idea of God that nobody here even cares about. > > For other unrelated bullshit to dredge up, how about those damn Hawaiian > natives and their stupid gods? Eh? Is that bait tempting enough? > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 11:37 John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:01 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> The religion of atheism claims to have the important fact, established >>> without doubt, that an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe >>> doesn't exist.* >>> >> >> Perhaps it does say that but I really couldn't say because I don't know >> anything about the religion of atheism. All I know is the scientific >> method never says something has been established beyond all doubt, although >> on occasion it does say some things are too silly to talk about. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Apr 22 15:55:39 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:55:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46187b3f-1184-a528-3620-88dff84132bd@zaiboc.net> On 22/04/2020 15:15, Giulio Prisco wrote: > The religion of atheism claims to have the important fact, established > without doubt, that an omnipotent omniscient being who created the > universe doesn't exist Ah, that religion. Maybe it does exist, but if so, it's not called atheism. Antitheism, maybe? When I say 'atheism' I mean the lack of belief in gods, not what you said above. I'm sure you're not one of the people, mentioned in my earlier post, that doesn't understand the difference between an absence of evidence and evidence of absence. This is what happens when someone takes a word and makes it mean something different to what other people understand by it. Confusion, misunderstanding, arguments. Your 'atheism' is a totally different thing to mine. -- Ben Zaiboc From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 16:00:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:00:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: How many times must a prediction be made and fail before you stop thinking that it will come true? Thousands? Jesus preached that the end of the world was near. Paul believed that and based a lot of his teachings on it; otherwise some of what he said makes little sense. (don't marry, he said - good advice at any time, some say, but esp. when the end of the world is upon us). Christianity would be a better religion if we ignored Paul. Keeping a belief in a religion that keeps predicting the end of the world would seem to be way beyond obstinate. If you can prove anything about religion it is that it is not rational - fails to respond to failed predictions by people who have a lot respect, charisma, and so on, one of them being a god, or half a god or however you view Jesus if you are a follower of his. (I am, on certain things, like forgiveness). Are failed predictions evidence of absence? bill w I keep being reminded of that book When Prophecy Fails, by two psychologists who joined a cult - long ago. On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 10:38 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:01 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> The religion of atheism claims to have the important fact, established >> without doubt, that an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe >> doesn't exist.* >> > > Perhaps it does say that but I really couldn't say because I don't know > anything about the religion of atheism. All I know is the scientific > method never says something has been established beyond all doubt, although > on occasion it does say some things are too silly to talk about. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 22 16:12:00 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:12:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] becoming a fossil, ip and governors, was: RE: No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: <008c01d618b7$791a0b00$6b4e2100$@rainier66.com> References: <008c01d618b7$791a0b00$6b4e2100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2010049448.657798.1587571920554@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 08:21:21 AM PDT, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: Stuart, perhaps we can work out some kind of IP-sharing agreement?? I will agree to take the profits, you can have all the credit for being the originator of the imaginative idea. spike Spike you are free to pursue this particular idea to your heart's content. Especially since you let me pursue your idea of a AI companion for Alzheimer's patients. I actually made some progress with that to the point where I had a functional chat bot on my laptop that could hold verbal or text conversations with humans. This was actually an accomplishment because I found a way to make the whole thing run entirely on my local machine. Most AI these days like Siri, Google voice, Alexa, or Cortana dwell on a remote server that logs your entire conversation for the benefit of their respective companies. This however will not work for a medical type AI because HIPAA laws require such conversations to be kept strictly confidential. So I had to come with a different solution. The? voice recognition in my prototype is not as accurate as the big guy's AI but as long as background noise is kept to minimum, I am happy to say it does work and it is completely local. However, further progress on my project has halted because my laptop has insufficient computing power to train a truly robust machine learning algorithm. So I will need to upgrade to a desktop with GPU in a dedicated workshop to make any further progress.? Anyhow, you are free to run with the fossilization idea if you so choose as I hereby relinquish any and all claim to it.. :-) Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 22 16:24:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:24:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] becoming a fossil, ip and governors, was: RE: No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: <008c01d618b7$791a0b00$6b4e2100$@rainier66.com> References: <008c01d618b7$791a0b00$6b4e2100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010a01d618c2$7992e380$6cb8aa80$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com >...Damn, I might get sued...Stuart, perhaps we can work out some kind of IP-sharing agreement? ...spike Hey cool, never mind, that NRA feller with the cold dead hands already thought of the idea before Avant was born and when I was a callow youth, long before I became a callow geezer: https://youtu.be/mDLS12_a-fk Stuart no worries, I will still say kind words about you, while enjoying the view from up here: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XTAa6d1R0d0/Tw1qtmjua8I/AAAAAAAAABo/gZluXUh0Kd0/s1600/New+york+times+money+bags.jpg spike From hibbard at wisc.edu Wed Apr 22 16:38:23 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:38:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] John Conway is dead Message-ID: In 1971 I programmed a PDP-8 (unwind 49 years of Moore's Law: with 4K 12-bit words of memory, the PDP-8 could add two 12-bit integers in 3 microseconds) to run Conway's Game of Life and display it on a CRT screen. Friends and I would get stoned and go to the lab to watch it. In 1992 I saw Conway deliver the keynote speech at the IEEE Visualization Conference. Keynote speakers usually wear suits, but Conway wore a t-shirt and gym shorts. There was a moment of confusion about where to attach the microphone to his clothes. From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 22 16:44:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:44:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] becoming a fossil, ip and governors, was: RE: No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: <2010049448.657798.1587571920554@mail.yahoo.com> References: <008c01d618b7$791a0b00$6b4e2100$@rainier66.com> <2010049448.657798.1587571920554@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012901d618c5$39ce3e90$ad6abbb0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] becoming a fossil, ip and governors, was: RE: No gods, no meaning? On Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 08:21:21 AM PDT, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>...Stuart, perhaps we can work out some kind of IP-sharing agreement? I will agree to take the profits, you can have all the credit for being the originator of the imaginative idea. spike >...Spike you are free to pursue this particular idea to your heart's content...Anyhow, you are free to run with the fossilization idea if you so choose as I hereby relinquish any and all claim to it.. :-) Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Cool thanks Stuart. Let's have a gentleman's agreement: each of us will toss down a sack of money to the other should our ideas work out. We make a second gentleman's agreement to make it a sack of paper money, in order to reduce the risk of injury. Hal Finney and I had a similar agreement but his condition made him unable to hurl the sack of coins, and so that didn't work out for me. I am not a bit surprised the government would find a way to interfere with your robo-companion. They did that with Fit Bit: some doctor used the pulse data from it to determine how to treat a fibrillation patient, they declared it a medical instrument, made big headaches for the company. Same happened to 23&Me, which is why its price doubled and the info they offered went down. The market is there: if we can work out good online speech recognition avatars and satisfy the power-grabby authorities that of course it neither a medical device nor a spy machine, the proles will buy the hell outta that product. The rich ones might even pop for a 3-D version and pay even more if she has convincing anatomically-correct everything. Hell never mind them, I would buy that. spike From atymes at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 16:47:51 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:47:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: <3a73dff5-4cc6-4807-bbf9-469a0aac99e7@zaiboc.net> References: <3a73dff5-4cc6-4807-bbf9-469a0aac99e7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:30 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 22/04/2020 01:12, Will Steinberg wrote: > > Atheism is clearly an assertion. If it wasn't, then "God does not > exist"... > > > Whoa. > You're saying atheism asserts "god does not exist"? > > You've heard the saying "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", > right? > > Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, not a belief in the lack of gods. > No, agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in the lack of gods. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 22 16:54:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:54:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] becoming a fossil, ip and governors, was: RE: No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: <012901d618c5$39ce3e90$ad6abbb0$@rainier66.com> References: <008c01d618b7$791a0b00$6b4e2100$@rainier66.com> <2010049448.657798.1587571920554@mail.yahoo.com> <012901d618c5$39ce3e90$ad6abbb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012a01d618c6$c01bd8d0$40538a70$@rainier66.com> >...Hal Finney and I had a similar agreement ...spike Hal has been gone well over years now. I miss that man like he left us yesterday. He was the nicest guy you ever met, treated me like his equal, such a fine person. Curse death, that evil scourge of all lifeforms. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 17:01:54 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:01:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again Message-ID: Giulio Prisco wrote: > Of course, I am aware of the violent authoritarian practices of organized religions in history. But looking at the more recent history of the West, I find that the religion of atheism, when sanctioned by state power has been more authoritarian. Here in Eastern Europe everyone has horror stories to tell about how someone in their family was violently harassed (I am talking of real harassment, sticks and stones, not words) by a state atheist regime for wearing a cross or going to church. > This confirms my main (actually only) point: That atheism IS a religion because it acts like one. If you want to make the case that Communism is either a religion or something that occupies the same function in human "mental space" I would agree with you. I have written about this for decades. I make a case that religions are mutually exclusive. So someone would not be a Baptist and a Mormon at the same time. A human organization would be a religion if it demonstrates this exclusive mechanism. An example that is not a religion would be a bowling league. Membership in a bowling league probably does not affect the chances of members being in a religion. Atheism is a lack of religion rather than a religion, though, by the measure above, it would be unexpected to find an "atheist Methodist". Still, there is no organized atheist religion. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 17:08:40 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:08:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again Message-ID: In the early days of this list, the conclusion was reached. "There are no gods . . . Yet." Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 17:38:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:38:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:53 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't believe it's silly to believe that consciousness is universal. > I don't think it's silly either and never said it was. *> In fact, as a materialist, I think it is patently stupid to believe > consciousness for some reason stops at the brain--a silly, 1700s, vitalist > view--as opposed to believing that computation and information exchange are > everywhere and thus consciousness is to* > I might add a few caveats but have no great problem with that. *> In fact, I believe you actually AGREE with me,* > I more of less do. So why are you so upset? * > but for some reason you are arguing against a stupid idea of God that > nobody here even cares about.* > I hope you're right and nobody around here cares about a omnipotent omniscient being that created the universe, I can't prove the idea is wrong but I can prove the idea is silly. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 17:50:28 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:50:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 13:40 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I hope you're right and nobody around here cares about a omnipotent > omniscient being that created the universe, I can't prove the idea is wrong > but I can prove the idea is silly. > To the contrary, Bostrom has shown just how probable this scenario is. However--even not in a simulation--I believe that reality requires an ultimate contingency. The big bang has a reason, and that has a reason, and so does that. The only way to rationalize these infinitely recurring causes is to assume said contingency, which I would call God. Even a simulator's world may have the some argument attached to it. So if reality is an endless series of creators--what's the difference? The creative force is God -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Wed Apr 22 09:00:31 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:00:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] John Conway is dead Message-ID: In 1971 I programmed a PDP-8 (unwind 49 years of Moore's Law: with 4K 12-bit words of memory, the PDP-8 could add two 12-bit integers in 3 microseconds) to run Conway's Game of Life and display it on a CRT screen. Friends and I would get stoned and go to the lab to watch it. In 1992 I saw Conway deliver the keynote speech at the IEEE Visualization Conference. Keynote speakers usually wear suits, but Conway wore a t-shirt and gym shorts. There was a moment of confusion about where to attach the microphone to his clothes. From atymes at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 18:10:03 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:10:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: <1c5026e5-b7b5-9237-674b-0f431eef605c@zaiboc.net> References: <1c5026e5-b7b5-9237-674b-0f431eef605c@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:03 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If prayer reliably restored amputated limbs, and I lost a limb, do you > think I'd refuse to pray? > That's the problem. Those who insist on challenging "belief" in science will often then assert that prayer does restore limbs, and any other miracle desired - except when they don't, but perhaps they restore someone else's, et cetera. It's not the reasoning they really challenge. It's the basic data - the basic truth of the world. They insist a priori that prayer works, so all the evidence must (in their opinion) be altered to support that conclusion. So the real problem is, how do you deal with those who try to alter the data of reality in that manner (and fail, though they may preach their claims loudly enough to convince some people), rather than accepting the world as it is and adjusting their beliefs accordingly? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Wed Apr 22 18:29:11 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:29:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 71 Message-ID: Ben - Great question! People have attempted to answer this over decades and along the way discovered transposons and "jumping genes". For the details you could look up the work of prof Barbara McClintock, also profs Andrew Pohorille (of NASA Ames) and Stuart Kauffman. Basic idea is that sub-systems of highly complex, hierarchical systems can split off and transfer from one system to another. Viruses are usually considered non living because they are obligate parasites and co-opt other organisims' metabolisms to propagate. So they did not evolve to be a simpler system. They evolved from complex systems as a sub-system, not as separate self-sufficient organisms. They are not even metabolically complete - ie, they can't live on their own, or replicate on their own, and instead depend utterly on hosts. Cool, right? Regina ---------- On 22/04/2020 01:12, Re Rose wrote: > Another tendency of complex biological systems is that they evolve to > increase their system complexity, or /information/. > This is new to me. Do you have any references for it? Viruses surely have to be simpler than their evolutionary predecessors? I can't see how they could have evolved from something even simpler. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 18:46:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:46:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:55 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I hope you're right and nobody around here cares about a omnipotent >> omniscient being that created the universe, I can't prove the idea is wrong >> but I can prove the idea is silly. >> > > *> To the contrary, Bostrom has shown just how probable this scenario is.* > The guy running the computer that's simulating our universe is not omnipotent, he apparently can't simulate our natural laws so that they can solve non-deterministic polynomial time problems in polynomial time, nor is there any reason to think he could stop a tornado in his world from hitting his computer. And even if the master simulator's existence could be proven that certainly wouldn't explain why there is something rather than nothing. *>The big bang has a reason, and that has a reason, and so does that. The > only way to rationalize these infinitely recurring causes is to assume said > contingency, which I would call God. * > I would need more than that to call it God, an infinite amount more. A chain of "why" questions either comes to a halt or it doesn't and things terminate in a brute fact, but that brute fact need not have any intentionality or consciousness or even a hint of intelligence, it could be as dumb as a sack full of doorknobs. It would be a pretty low rent God if both you and I are smarter than God. And a different chain of "why" questions probably terminates in a different brute fact if it ever terminates at all. In my opinion one brute fact is consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed, but it would be silly and very misleading to call that fact God. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 19:37:49 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:37:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 14:47 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In my opinion one brute fact is consciousness is the way data feels when > it is being processed, but it would be silly and very misleading to call > that fact God. > I think this explanation still lacks parsimony, because where does the data come from? Your version needs 2 things: 1) brute fact 2) source of data Mine has only 1: 1) consciousness is prime and creates data > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 20:28:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:28:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:41 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> In my opinion one brute fact is consciousness is the way data feels when >> it is being processed, but it would be silly and very misleading to call >> that fact God. >> > > *> I think this explanation still lacks parsimony, because where does the > data come from? * > I don't claim that is the only brute fact or that particular one is the source or ultimate explanation of everything, it certainly can't explain why there is something rather than nothing, I just think that's as far as you can go in figuring out what consciousness is. > *consciousness is prime and creates data * Consciousness doesn't create data intelligence does, and that's why it's a far richer area of study. Consciousness research has gone nowhere in the last century or even millennium, but intelligence research sure has. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 22:19:56 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:19:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16407A9B-E96F-41D0-ABAA-5D175EBD534C@gmail.com> > I make a case that religions are mutually exclusive. So someone would > not be a Baptist and a Mormon at the same time. > > Keith Shinto. Most Japanese would say they are both Shinto and Buddhist. Roman Polytheism. All forms of worship, all cults acceptable, as long as they do not interfere with important Roman Religious Functions. I think the idea of ?only one religion? mostly only applies to monotheism. SR Ballard From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 22:20:15 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:20:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8325C671-B646-4E90-A652-DA5CC99D7737@gmail.com> > On Apr 21, 2020, at 8:42 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > If you can prove that God could exist by symbolic logic, higher math, or whatever you are using, then could you say the same thing for the Devil. empathy, witchcraft, a wife's love - just about anything? > > bill w A problem here would be what is meant by 'god' above. I think you're positing something like the god of Christianity, in which case the problem is if you can prove it exists, then would this prove the whole package of Christian beliefs? (Or which flavor given that Christianity is a fairly diverse religion -- even more diverse in its early years if scholars like Bart Ehrman (see his _Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew_)?) Many existence [of god] proofs involve simply proving there is a god -- often by only loosely defining what's meant by 'god' -- and not that there's a god of, say, Judaism or Christianity. For instance, many of the classic proofs (all of which seem to have been refuted or, if not, require accepting questionable premises) merely conclude there is something like a perfect being (ontological argument) or a creator (cosmological argument) or a guiding intelligence (design argument). These don't conclude -- at least not in their usual form -- in stating something like modern Christian theology is true. (This is ignoring that even modern Christian views are fairly diverse.) You can use symbolic logic to examine the syntax of a given proof, given that you can treat elements of your proof as terms in first order or higher order logics. But the problem then is does this mean anything if the terms themselves are questionable? Therein lies the rub. Merely putting stuff into symbolic logic might help to spot problems with the overall structure of a given argument, but it won't necessarily help one to accept the terms or premises of the argument. For instance, imagine I put forth the argument that: 1. P -> Q (P implies Q) 2. P (positing P) 3. Q (therefore Q) [conclusion] This is pretty solid (for classical propositional logic, but note not for relevance logic), but for any given argument, you'd have to know that 1 and 2 are true. If not, syntactically, the proof is valid, but it might not be true. By the way, some here mentioned one can't prove there is no god. Well, this seems like a bit of nerd lore. Looking at actual non-existence proofs, it looks as if some people working in the field believe you can prove there is no god. See, for example, _The Impossibility of God_, edited by Michael Martin and Ricki Monnier. Whether you accept any of these proofs is another matter. (The same duo also edited another volume of improbability (of god) arguments, titled, not surprisingly, _The Improbability of God_. Haven't read that one yet.) Of course, if you meant jumping from say pure logic or pure math (say, set theory or category theory) to god, I've seen attempts made, but none seems to pass muster as anything more then sneaking in what is to be proved. There is a famous story, which seems to be false, that Euler presented Denis Diderot with a mathematical proof of god's existence. (See http://www.fen.bilkent.edu.tr/~franz/M300/bell2.pdf ) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 22:23:35 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:23:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2020, at 10:48 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I bought this book thinking that I could understand it more than it appears that I can. It is written by a man who has been in the field of AI for a long time, and now wants to create a math that does what statistics cannot do: answer why. > > The book is The Book of Why: The New Science of Cause and Effect. by Judea Pearl (winner of the 2011 Turing Award) > > Check it out on Amazon. I will consider requests and send it to someone who tells me it's in their field. It's on my reading list, though not so much because of the AI stuff but because of the causality stuff... By the way, if you're interested in causality per se, a great book I have read is Phil Dowe's _Physical Causation_. I also recommend _The Oxford Handbook of Causation_. In fact, all the Oxford Handbooks I've read so far have been very helpful and great references. I don't pretend to comprehend them, but they're good to have around. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 22:28:09 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:28:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <2AA98CBA-AD3F-41D3-953E-86E0FDE07F71@gmail.com> ?Bailey became later recognized for transplantations, which consisted of all types of pediatric and infant-open heart surgeries.? SR Ballard > On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:11 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:51 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > John, I expect better arguments from you!!! :-) Perhaps you have more >> realistic examples? > > In 1984 Doctor Leonard Lee Bailey, a Seventh-day Adventist performed the first baboon to human heart transplant in a hospital run by that same religion. The patient lived for less than a month before the heart was powerfully rejected just as nearly all biologists predicted it would be. Dr. Bailey was criticised and asked why he didn't pick a primate that was evolutionarily more closely related to humans, he replied "Er, I find that difficult to answer. You see, I don't believe in evolution." > > I don't want my doctor to engage in doublethink, or my president. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Apr 22 22:28:21 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 23:28:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3cc0fec1-70d7-81d5-fe1c-1c5213ea3c52@zaiboc.net> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods.? Atheism is a belief in the > lack of gods. This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. Some people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an assertion that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. These things are easy to look up. Try, for example: https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/ https://www.atheistalliance.org/about-atheism/what-is-atheism/ https://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.htm These are websites written by atheists themselves. You can hardly get a better source. After all, if you wanted to know what the word 'entomology' means, who would be the most accurate source, an entomologist or a fireman? -- Ben Zaiboc From atymes at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 23:13:04 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:13:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: <3cc0fec1-70d7-81d5-fe1c-1c5213ea3c52@zaiboc.net> References: <3cc0fec1-70d7-81d5-fe1c-1c5213ea3c52@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in the > > lack of gods. > > This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about > belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning > knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. > And thus, a lack of belief. > Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. Some > people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an assertion > that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. > > These things are easy to look up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities." I guess both meanings are in use. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 22 23:17:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:17:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ants again, was: RE: No gods, no meaning? Message-ID: <003b01d618fc$4123aa90$c36affb0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat ...if you wanted to know what the word 'entomology' means, who would be the most accurate source, an entomologist or a fireman? -- Ben Zaiboc _______________________________________________ Ben you gave me a terrific idea, a slight extension on your question. Suppose you think it would be cool to be a fossil, but it is too expensive, but you are like me and you like ants, so you figure OK, head frozen, don't want to pay the money for a coffin and the plot of ground for the rest of you, but you can envision getting your carbon atoms back into the atmosphere without the expense and smoke of cremation and the whole question of what to do with the ashes and all that. Hey it's Earth Day, of course I am going to be thinking smoke and ashes. So suppose you find a way to get your temperature down to where the covalent bonds are just giving up, such as at liquid neon temperature, 27 Kelvin at 1 atmosphere. Grind or bash you to about #10 gravel size while hard frozen, then distribute the bits on a big field where the ants can devour you. Since ants are about a third head, we hope they don't get an ice-person headache. Ben your notion of defining the term entomology leads directly to hard freezing, grinding to gravel and feeding corpses to ants. I still haven't figured out a way to work the firemen in there. Can we work out an intellectual property sharing agreement? I will offer you the same deal I proposed to Avantguardian: we make a team, I'll be rich, you can be famous. spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 23:31:42 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:31:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: <2AA98CBA-AD3F-41D3-953E-86E0FDE07F71@gmail.com> References: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> <2AA98CBA-AD3F-41D3-953E-86E0FDE07F71@gmail.com> Message-ID: The classic JKC quote cut. Never change, sweet prince On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 18:44 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ?Bailey became later recognized for transplantations, which consisted of > all types of pediatric and infant-open heart surgeries.? > > SR Ballard > > On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:11 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:51 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *> John, I expect better arguments from you!!! :-) Perhaps you have more >> realistic examples?* >> > > In 1984 Doctor Leonard Lee Bailey, a Seventh-day Adventist performed the > first baboon to human heart transplant in a hospital run by that same > religion. The patient lived for less than a month before the heart was > powerfully rejected just as nearly all biologists predicted it would be. > Dr. Bailey was criticised and asked why he didn't pick a primate that was > evolutionarily more closely related to humans, he replied "*Er, I find > that difficult to answer. You see, I don't believe in evolution.*" > > I don't want my doctor to engage in doublethink, or my president. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 23:44:32 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:44:32 +1000 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <3a73dff5-4cc6-4807-bbf9-469a0aac99e7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 at 03:00, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:30 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 22/04/2020 01:12, Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> Atheism is clearly an assertion. If it wasn't, then "God does not >> exist"... >> >> >> Whoa. >> You're saying atheism asserts "god does not exist"? >> >> You've heard the saying "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", >> right? >> >> Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, not a belief in the lack of gods. >> > > No, agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in the > lack of gods. > Atheists and agnostics may assign different probabilities to the existence of God. Theists, on the other had, have a fundamentally different way of thinking: they believe with certainty despite the absence of supporting evidence. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 23:49:20 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:49:20 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1d917d03-05c3-778b-6066-6df441bb7278@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 at 01:00, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The religion of atheism claims to have the important fact, established > without doubt, that an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe > doesn't exist. Therefore it qualifies as a religion according to your > definition. > I don't think atheists say "without doubt". -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 00:04:54 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:04:54 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Tooth and Claw (was ccp struggles) In-Reply-To: <1451580422.1731368.1587193597939@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1105182926.450787.1586913208529.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1105182926.450787.1586913208529@mail.yahoo.com> <1390637335.518528.1586930611935@mail.yahoo.com> <2052992412.526205.1586934644286@mail.yahoo.com> <1755590871.1364629.1587109971743@mail.yahoo.com> <1451580422.1731368.1587193597939@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 at 17:08, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Friday, April 17, 2020, 06:03:19 AM PDT, Stathis Papaioannou via > extropy-chat wrote: > > >> The founding principle of America is that the people ARE the > government. Whereas other countries have rulers, we Americans have > representatives. In other words, we consent to be governed by our equals > (i.e. morally equivalent peers) for the sake of schools and highways and > the common good. But an armed person and an unarmed person are not equal, > they cannot be, for one can coerce the other. > >> > >> Another way to think about it is this. Max Weber defined a state as an > entity that maintained a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within its > borders. In most countries when there arises a group of people like an > armed gang, cartel, militia, or terrorist organization, then that monopoly > on violence is broken and the existence of the state is questioned. Here in > the United States of America however, since we have a "government of the > people, by the people, for the people", we prevent this from happening by > allowing almost everyone to have access to weapons and be part of the > militia. An all-inclusive monopoly on the legitimate use of force can never > be broken. The use of force for self-defense is legitimatized by natural > law.. At least that was the intent of the Founders as near as I can tell. > >> > >> In America, if you can't govern an armed populace, then you are not fit > to govern. > > > I can see that you believe this, but it is not an idea that people > elsewhere in the world have, even if they support gun rights. It is like a > religious idea, which has the characteristic that it seems crazy to anyone > not already in the religion. > > Do you mean crazy in a clinical sense, Dr. Papaoinnnou? More or less crazy > than your Spartan ancestors? Could you be more specific? :-) > A delusion is defined as a fixed false belief which is not in keeping with the patient's culture or subculture. The last part is added because otherwise all sorts of human beliefs would be called delusional. But I can only tell you that outside of the US, the American attitude to guns is mystifying. This is even more so because we are all very familiar with American culture and consider Americans to be generally quite similar to ourselves, unlike the ancient Spartans, for example. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 23 00:13:52 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:13:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] becoming a fossil, ip and governors, was: RE: No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: <012901d618c5$39ce3e90$ad6abbb0$@rainier66.com> References: <008c01d618b7$791a0b00$6b4e2100$@rainier66.com> <2010049448.657798.1587571920554@mail.yahoo.com> <012901d618c5$39ce3e90$ad6abbb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1180587874.43924.1587600832551@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 09:46:58 AM PDT, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:? Cool thanks Stuart.? Let's have a gentleman's agreement: each of us will toss down a sack of money to the other should our ideas work out.? We make a second gentleman's agreement to make it a sack of paper money, in order to reduce the risk of injury.? Hal Finney and I had a similar agreement but his condition made him unable to hurl the sack of coins, and so that didn't work out for me. ----------------------------- I agree to your terms, Spike. Hal Finney's coins are not the kind that can be tossed any way but rumor has it that if he is ever restored with his memory intact, he would be a very wealthy man due to his cryptocurrency holdings. It would be nice to see you collect. ----------------------------- I am not a bit surprised the government would find a way to interfere with your robo-companion.? They did that with Fit Bit: some doctor used the pulse data from it to determine how to treat a fibrillation patient, they declared it a medical instrument, made big headaches for the company.? Same happened to 23&Me, which is why its price doubled and the info they offered went down. ----------------------------------- The government has not actually interfered yet, as I am still well beneath their notice. But I am just thinking ahead and trying to head them off at the pass so to speak. -------------------------------------- The market is there: if we can work out good online speech recognition avatars and satisfy the power-grabby authorities that of course it neither a medical device nor a spy machine, the proles will buy the hell outta that product.? The rich ones might even pop for a 3-D version and pay even more if she has convincing anatomically-correct everything.? Hell never mind them, I would buy that. ---------------------------------------- If it gets that far, I could sign you up to be a beta-tester. :-) Stuart LaForge From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 04:14:22 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 21:14:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5016463B-7B35-4490-B30B-AAB16D1D5D1A@gmail.com> Again, I feel compelled to not let the word 'radical' be used to mean something bad. You're using it, it seems, as a stand in for someone who can't take criticism, satire, jokes, etc. But there are already other, better words for that. Why not just say 'dogmatist'? Also, there are different behaviors to react to criticism depending on context. Sometimes, one's patience can reasonably be at its limit. I've run into cases where people simply repeat their criticisms as if they've never been answered. In one discussion forum, there was a guy who went on about Georgism and would simply repeat his criticisms of non-Georgist approaches as if no one had bothered to answer them. After a while, people in the forum simply ignored him and many blocked his posts. No one, of course, advocated he be forced to recant or retract. In fact, no one even suggested he be banned from the forum. Eventually, he just stopped posting. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Apr 21, 2020, at 12:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > no-one has the right > to prevent others from giving offence, as many muslims, christians, and > others are constantly trying to do. > Ben Zaiboc > > What that tells this psychologist is that those people have a shaky belief system - sort of like a weak ego that cannot stand criticism. One strong in belief can enjoy satire, jokes, drawings, or any kind of criticism. We do know that the radicals in each group are a small minority. > > How would you react if someone challenged your belief in science? With patience, I hope, a shake of the head, perhaps a tendency to preach the values of science, but nothing remotely violent or even harsh. > > bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 04:49:14 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 06:49:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Keith. I think atheism is, as you say, "a lack of religion rather than a religion" in non-militant atheists. But in those militant atheists who passionately want to convert others, and even more so in those militant atheists who discriminate against believers in academy, culture, media etc., atheism becomes a religion, and of the worst kind. On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 7:21 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > Giulio Prisco wrote: > > > Of course, I am aware of the violent authoritarian practices of > organized religions in history. But looking at the more recent history > of the West, I find that the religion of atheism, when sanctioned by > state power has been more authoritarian. Here in Eastern Europe > everyone has horror stories to tell about how someone in their family > was violently harassed (I am talking of real harassment, sticks and > stones, not words) by a state atheist regime for wearing a cross or > going to church. > > > This confirms my main (actually only) point: That atheism IS a > religion because it acts like one. > > If you want to make the case that Communism is either a religion or > something that occupies the same function in human "mental space" I > would agree with you. I have written about this for decades. > > I make a case that religions are mutually exclusive. So someone would > not be a Baptist and a Mormon at the same time. A human organization > would be a religion if it demonstrates this exclusive mechanism. An > example that is not a religion would be a bowling league. Membership > in a bowling league probably does not affect the chances of members > being in a religion. > > Atheism is a lack of religion rather than a religion, though, by the > measure above, it would be unexpected to find an "atheist Methodist". > Still, there is no organized atheist religion. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 04:56:09 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 06:56:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "There are no gods . . . Yet." is a good conclusion. Arthur Clarke said that, and who am I to contradict him. Yes, perhaps our descendants will create/become God. Or other civilizations in the universe have already created/became God(s).... Or the potential for God-like awareness and power exists in the very fabric of reality, and God-like entities implemented in quantum fields or underneath came into being immediately after the beginning of the universe... Or one or another version of the simulation hypothesis... Or God will emerge in the far future but then is present at all places and times... All that is in my book. There are more things in heaven and earth... On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 7:28 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > In the early days of this list, the conclusion was reached. > > "There are no gods . . . Yet." > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 05:01:31 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:01:31 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: <46187b3f-1184-a528-3620-88dff84132bd@zaiboc.net> References: <46187b3f-1184-a528-3620-88dff84132bd@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: That would be agnosticism. Of course I have no issue with agnostics. Strictly speaking, I am one: I don't *know* that God/afterlife exist, I just hope so and try to find supporting clues in science and philosophy. I call a "militant atheist" someone who totally, blindly, passionately, and intolerantly affirms that there's no God/afterlife. So what is an atheist? Someone halfwar between agnosticism and militant atheism? On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 6:08 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 22/04/2020 15:15, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > The religion of atheism claims to have the important fact, established > > without doubt, that an omnipotent omniscient being who created the > > universe doesn't exist > > Ah, that religion. Maybe it does exist, but if so, it's not called > atheism. Antitheism, maybe? > > When I say 'atheism' I mean the lack of belief in gods, not what you > said above. I'm sure you're not one of the people, mentioned in my > earlier post, that doesn't understand the difference between an absence > of evidence and evidence of absence. > > This is what happens when someone takes a word and makes it mean > something different to what other people understand by it. Confusion, > misunderstanding, arguments. > > Your 'atheism' is a totally different thing to mine. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 05:47:31 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:47:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again Message-ID: Will Steinberg wrote: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 13:40 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> I hope you're right and nobody around here cares about an omnipotent >> omniscient being that created the universe, I can't prove the idea is wrong >> but I can prove the idea is silly. > To the contrary, Bostrom has shown just how probable this scenario is. Ah, are you aware that the modern simulation idea originated in a joke between me and Hans Moravec at the1986 Artificial Life Conference? Hans and I discussed this origin on this list. I think I could find it if anyone cares. (The idea dates back to Simulacron-3 (1964) by Daniel F. Galouye though I didn't make the connection at the time.) > However--even not in a simulation--I believe that reality requires an ultimate contingency. The big bang has a reason, and that has a reason, and so does that. I have read that the universe came about in a way similar to a bubble forming in a pot of boiling water and no reason was involved. > The only way to rationalize these infinitely recurring causes is to assume said contingency, which I would call God. Even a simulator's world may have the some argument attached to it. So if reality is an endless series of creators--what's the difference? The creative force is God I don't need to rationalize the origin of the universe. It happened, that's enough for me. But if you feel the need for a god, that's OK too. Keith PS. I am starting to think there is a need for a book about the early development of a long list of Extropian ideas. Max More would be the obvious one to write it, but I *might* consider doing it if he does not want to write it. Max gave me the early archives a couple of years ago. The book would be largely one of postings and explanations from the early days. Perry Metzger and maybe some of the other early posters would need to review it. From giulio at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 06:03:56 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:03:56 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re "I am starting to think there is a need for a book about the early development of a long list of Extropian ideas..." PLEASE WRITE IT!!!! On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:50 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > Will Steinberg wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 13:40 John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> I hope you're right and nobody around here cares about an omnipotent > >> omniscient being that created the universe, I can't prove the idea is wrong > >> but I can prove the idea is silly. > > > To the contrary, Bostrom has shown just how probable this scenario is. > > Ah, are you aware that the modern simulation idea originated in a joke > between me and Hans Moravec at the1986 Artificial Life Conference? > Hans and I discussed this origin on this list. I think I could find > it if anyone cares. (The idea dates back to Simulacron-3 (1964) by > Daniel F. Galouye though I didn't make the connection at the time.) > > > However--even not in a simulation--I believe that reality requires an > ultimate contingency. The big bang has a reason, and that has a reason, > and so does that. > > I have read that the universe came about in a way similar to a bubble > forming in a pot of boiling water and no reason was involved. > > > The only way to rationalize these infinitely recurring > causes is to assume said contingency, which I would call God. Even a > simulator's world may have the some argument attached to it. So if reality > is an endless series of creators--what's the difference? The creative > force is God > > I don't need to rationalize the origin of the universe. It happened, > that's enough for me. But if you feel the need for a god, that's OK > too. > > Keith > > PS. I am starting to think there is a need for a book about the early > development of a long list of Extropian ideas. Max More would be the > obvious one to write it, but I *might* consider doing it if he does > not want to write it. Max gave me the early archives a couple of > years ago. The book would be largely one of postings and explanations > from the early days. Perry Metzger and maybe some of the other early > posters would need to review it. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Apr 23 07:29:43 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:29:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 74 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2348d4f6-0a79-c206-96e8-dc15c3a984a9@zaiboc.net> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods.? Atheism is a belief in > the > > lack of gods. > > This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about > belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning > knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. > > > And thus, a lack of belief. Not necessarily. Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite knowledge about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I know that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. In fact it rejects logic. > Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. > Some > people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an > assertion > that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. > > These things are easy to look up. > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism > > "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the > existence of deities.? Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the > belief that any deities exist.? In an even narrower sense, atheism is > specifically the position that there are no deities." > > I guess both meanings are in use. Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe to a minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not so much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the broadest one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just world-views. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Apr 23 07:32:14 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:32:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Dammit, done it again! Reposted, with correct Subject line :( On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods.? Atheism is a belief in > the > > lack of gods. > > This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about > belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning > knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. > > > And thus, a lack of belief. Not necessarily. Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite knowledge about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I know that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. In fact it rejects logic. > Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. > Some > people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an > assertion > that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. > > These things are easy to look up. > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism > > "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the > existence of deities.? Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the > belief that any deities exist.? In an even narrower sense, atheism is > specifically the position that there are no deities." > > I guess both meanings are in use. Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe to a minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not so much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the broadest one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just world-views. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Apr 23 07:55:58 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:55:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ants again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4511d28a-3468-90de-3031-aa80ae95c5d6@zaiboc.net> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Spike wrote: > Ben your notion of defining the term entomology leads directly to hard > freezing, grinding to gravel and feeding corpses to ants. I still haven't > figured out a way to work the firemen in there. Can we work out an > intellectual property sharing agreement? I will offer you the same deal I > proposed to Avantguardian: we make a team, I'll be rich, you can be famous. Spike, my answer is the same as Stuart's. I hereby relinquish any and all claim to it If you can figure out how to (and actually achieve) a way to make cubic buttloads of money from these crazy ideas, you have my blessing. Attribution not required. Oh, and the firemen can squirt the frozen particles through their hoses to an ant-rich environment. Or maybe squirt the ants onto a field of frozen corpse-particles. I don't know how to solve the ant-brain-freeze problem, though. Or, you know, killing the ants by blasting them with meat at 27K. I actually think the fossilisation idea might have some potential, though. I reckon there will be folks willing to pay for a service that literally fossilises them after death (how cool would it be to be up there with T-Rex, H. Floresiensis and Carcharodon Megalodon?!). The problem is we don't know how to do it other than marinading someone's body in the appropriate chemical environment for millions of years. But, you could offer to do just that. Nobody is going to sue you if it doesn't work. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 08:16:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 04:16:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:51 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > *I am starting to think there is a need for a book about the > earlydevelopment of a long list of Extropian ideas. Max More would be > theobvious one to write it, but I *might* consider doing it if he doesnot > want to write it. Max gave me the early archives a couple ofyears ago. > The book would be largely one of postings and explanationsfrom the early > days. Perry Metzger and maybe some of the other earlyposters would need to > review it.* I hope somebody writes such a book, I'd love to read it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 08:45:41 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 01:45:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again Message-ID: Giulio Prisco wrote: > Hi Keith. I think atheism is, as you say, "a lack of religion rather than a religion" in non-militant atheists. But in those militant atheists who passionately want to convert others, and even more so in those militant atheists who discriminate against believers in academy, culture, media etc., atheism becomes a religion, and of the worst kind. Is this a real problem? Can you provide some examples? The best-known atheist might be Richard Dawkins. I may just not be aware, but has he advocated discrimination against believers? If not Dawkins, are there others? Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 09:23:20 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:23:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again Message-ID: Giulio Prisco wrote: > "There are no gods . . . Yet." is a good conclusion. Arthur Clarke said that, and who am I to contradict him. > Yes, perhaps our descendants will create/become God. We can sort of see a way to modify the upcoming collision with the Andromeda galaxy. At least by current standards, that's close to godlike power. > Or other civilizations in the universe have already created/became God(s).... We may be alone. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1806.02404.pdf "Dissolving the Fermi Paradox" Anders Sandberg, Eric Drexler and Toby Ord Anders is a highly respected researcher who used to post here, Eric is, of course, the founder of nanotech upon which extropianism is largely based. > Or the potential for God-like awareness and power exists in the very fabric of reality, and God-like entities implemented in quantum fields or underneath came into being immediately after the beginning of the universe... I can't see any way to make this case from the evidence we have access to. Can you? > Or one or another version of the simulation hypothesis... I am not aware of any way to prove or disprove the simulation hypothesis. The only proposal I know about would end the simulation if it worked. > Or God will emerge in the far future but then is present at all places and times... That makes a case that something in the future can travel backward in time. If that is possible, it invokes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niven%27s_laws#Niven's_Law_(re_Time_travel) "If the universe of discourse permits the possibility of time travel and of changing the past, then no time machine will be invented in that universe." snip Time travel may thus act to erase itself . . . . And there goes this kind of god in a puff of logic. I find the universe strange enough and interesting enough that I can get by without gods. However, I have no problem with people who need them except to wonder how evolution shaped humans to believe in gods. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 13:25:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:25:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: Some politicians, republicans all, think the worst is over so it's time to end the quarantine and go back to normal. On Tuesday COVID-19 killed 2804 Americans and that's the largest one day number of deaths so far. Granted 911 killed a few more, 2977, but yesterday 29,973 more Americans got sick from it and about a third of all COVID-19 cases in the entire world are in the USA. So has America really been working too hard to slow the spread of this disease? I'm just asking. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 14:26:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:26:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] psychology Message-ID: to wonder how evolution shaped humans to believe in gods. Keith That's my question. Perhaps there is some cognitive function that we absolutely need to function properly that has the consequence, or side effect, or extension, of believing in things without data or reason. Speculation invited. I am going to wade through the books of the Masks of God, by Joseph Campbell, and see if he has some answers. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 23 15:14:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:14:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ants again Message-ID: <006301d61981$ee5546d0$caffd470$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 12:56 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Ben Zaiboc Subject: Re: [ExI] ants again On 23/04/2020 00:18, Spike wrote: >>... Ben your notion of defining the term entomology leads directly to hard > freezing, grinding to gravel and feeding corpses to ants... I'll be rich, you can be famous. >...Spike... I hereby relinquish any and all claim to it...If you can figure out how to (and actually achieve) a way to make cubic buttloads of money from these crazy ideas, you have my blessing. Attribution not required... Crazy? Whaddya mean crazy? They thought Bill Gates was crazy for buying DOS! They thought Carly Fiorina was crazy for buying... oh wait never mind, back up. They thought Bill Gates was crazy. They thought Howard Hughes was cr... emmm... Gates! He wasn't crazy at all. >...I actually think the fossilisation idea might have some potential, though. I reckon there will be folks willing to pay for a service that literally fossilises them after death (how cool would it be to be up there with T-Rex, H. Floresiensis and Carcharodon Megalodon?!)... Ja it would be more like ants fossilized in amber. You can see them in there, perfectly preserved, inside a resin that hardened to a rock: https://www.google.com/search?q=fossils+in+amber&sxsrf=ALeKk02qzErOAPwihCfor lvOSxoRiOOhlA:1587653578780&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi6p9u85v7oA hXGl54KHZA1A-8Q_AUoAXoECA0QAw&biw=1329&bih=929 >...The problem is we don't know how to do it other than marinading someone's body in the appropriate chemical environment for millions of years. But, you could offer to do just that. Nobody is going to sue you if it doesn't work...-- Ben Zaiboc _______________________________________________ Ja I suppose you could soak the client in formaldehyde beforehand (not amino-stabilized laboratory formaldehyde but rather the intentionally volatile methanal (CH2O which vaporizes at around -19C)) soak for a coupla days, take her out and into a refrigerator, let the volatile formaldehyde boil off slowly so it doesn't discolor the skin (temporarily storing a headless corpse inside a refrigerator opens up a whole new class of possible practical jokes), formaldehyde boils off, coffin-shaped box of clear-epoxy resin, in goes the enhanced body and the younger better-looking head, along with a plate with clever sayings and an eternal website offering information about what a fun person this was (the body, not the head.) But of course, this whole notion leads to a better idea, which someone somewhere has probably already done: eternal websites. Suppose I want to write about what a great guy I was, how fun, imaginative, humble and all that, then put it on a website, then have that URL carved into my gravestone where the rest of me would be disposed of should my epoxy resin notion and my ant-food notion both fail. Does anyone offer a service that promises to do a data cemetery, where information is preserved for eternity? Where? Couldn't we make buttload on that? spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 23 15:21:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:21:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006c01d61982$dba1b860$92e52920$@rainier66.com> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:51 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: > I am starting to think there is a need for a book about the early development of a long list of Extropian ideas. Max More would be the obvious one to write it, but I *might* consider doing it if he does not want to write it. Max gave me the early archives a couple of years ago. The book would be largely one of postings and explanations from the early days. Perry Metzger and maybe some of the other early posters would need to review it. Keith there is a lot of terminology to be explained. You could do the book as an Extropian dictionary, with examples of how it was used. I had a guy recently post me offlist saying there are terms and assumptions unfamiliar to him that makes the posts hard to understand. I explained that the term ?buttload? means a large amount of money. He already understood that, but what is an M-brain, that sorta thing. Do let me volunteer my editorial services sir. I might be able to help with Robert Bradburyisms. He by himself contributed a lot of fun stuff back in the olden days. We might need a separate chapter on Bradburyisms. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 15:39:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:39:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ants again In-Reply-To: <006301d61981$ee5546d0$caffd470$@rainier66.com> References: <006301d61981$ee5546d0$caffd470$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: to wonder how evolution shaped humans to believe in gods. Does anyone offer a service that promises to do a data cemetery, where information is preserved for eternity? spike I have been wondering the same thing. Parts of my brain have been stored in Gmail, Facebook, Quora and so on. How long are they going to keep these things on the servers? These are in a sense mines my offspring (what is an onspring? Is that what happens when tiger notices you?) can access to find out just what I was like, if they care to. bill w On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:17 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Ben > Zaiboc via extropy-chat > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 12:56 AM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Cc: Ben Zaiboc > Subject: Re: [ExI] ants again > > On 23/04/2020 00:18, Spike wrote: > >>... Ben your notion of defining the term entomology leads directly to > hard > > > freezing, grinding to gravel and feeding corpses to ants... I'll be rich, > you can be famous. > > >...Spike... I hereby relinquish any and all claim to it...If you can > figure > out how to (and actually achieve) a way to make cubic buttloads of money > from these crazy ideas, you have my blessing. > Attribution not required... > > Crazy? Whaddya mean crazy? They thought Bill Gates was crazy for buying > DOS! They thought Carly Fiorina was crazy for buying... oh wait never > mind, > back up. They thought Bill Gates was crazy. They thought Howard Hughes > was > cr... emmm... Gates! He wasn't crazy at all. > > >...I actually think the fossilisation idea might have some potential, > though. I reckon there will be folks willing to pay for a service that > literally fossilises them after death (how cool would it be to be up there > with T-Rex, H. Floresiensis and Carcharodon Megalodon?!)... > > Ja it would be more like ants fossilized in amber. You can see them in > there, perfectly preserved, inside a resin that hardened to a rock: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=fossils+in+amber&sxsrf=ALeKk02qzErOAPwihCfor > > lvOSxoRiOOhlA:1587653578780&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi6p9u85v7oA > hXGl54KHZA1A-8Q_AUoAXoECA0QAw&biw=1329&bih=929 > > > >...The problem is we don't know how to do it other than marinading > someone's body in the appropriate chemical environment for millions of > years. But, you could offer to do just that. Nobody is going to sue you if > it doesn't work...-- Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > > Ja I suppose you could soak the client in formaldehyde beforehand (not > amino-stabilized laboratory formaldehyde but rather the intentionally > volatile methanal (CH2O which vaporizes at around -19C)) soak for a coupla > days, take her out and into a refrigerator, let the volatile formaldehyde > boil off slowly so it doesn't discolor the skin (temporarily storing a > headless corpse inside a refrigerator opens up a whole new class of > possible > practical jokes), formaldehyde boils off, coffin-shaped box of clear-epoxy > resin, in goes the enhanced body and the younger better-looking head, along > with a plate with clever sayings and an eternal website offering > information > about what a fun person this was (the body, not the head.) > > But of course, this whole notion leads to a better idea, which someone > somewhere has probably already done: eternal websites. > > Suppose I want to write about what a great guy I was, how fun, imaginative, > humble and all that, then put it on a website, then have that URL carved > into my gravestone where the rest of me would be disposed of should my > epoxy > resin notion and my ant-food notion both fail. Does anyone offer a service > that promises to do a data cemetery, where information is preserved for > eternity? > > Where? > > Couldn't we make buttload on that? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 16:26:04 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:26:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It seems to me we are way to fearful and tend to way over-react. Sure 9-11 was bad, but not nearly as bad as the hell we all still suffer every day at airports, completely failing at doing any good. That continuing suffering at the airports, for all of us, in total, is far worse than 9-11, ever was. I want to move to sweden: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/17/coronavirus-how-countries-across-globe-responding-covid-19/5065867002/ Sure, they have a few more sick than their restrictive neighbors, Denmark and Norway, but they also have twice the population. So, per capita, they are doing far better, via bottom up volunteering, rather than top down force. Brent On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:27 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Some politicians, republicans all, think the worst is over so it's time to > end the quarantine and go back to normal. On Tuesday COVID-19 killed 2804 > Americans and that's the largest one day number of deaths so far. Granted > 911 killed a few more, 2977, but yesterday 29,973 more Americans got sick > from it and about a third of all COVID-19 cases in the entire world are in > the USA. So has America really been working too hard to slow the spread of > this disease? I'm just asking. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 23 16:44:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:44:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? >?It seems to me we are way to fearful and tend to way over-react. Sure 9-11 was bad, but not nearly as bad as the hell we all still suffer every day at airports, completely failing at doing any good. That continuing suffering at the airports, for all of us, in total, is far worse than 9-11, ever was. >?I want to move to sweden: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/17/coronavirus-how-countries-across-globe-responding-covid-19/5065867002/ Sure, they have a few more sick than their restrictive neighbors, Denmark and Norway, but they also have twice the population. So, per capita, they are doing far better, via bottom up volunteering, rather than top down force. >?Brent Hi Brent, When anyone expresses an opinion on whether a government is doing too much or too little, consider the source. Our world today is divided into those who are still getting their paychecks and those who are not. If someone expresses an opinion one way or the other, try to determine which group that person is in, and how it might influence their view. I am one who sees shops declaring themselves essential and opening back up. The local authorities are doing nothing, and of course the local government outranks the governor ever since the governor declared the state to outrank the Federal government. I expect more shops to open soon. WeI can see that introduces risk, but these shop owners and employees are not getting a paycheck until the doors open, so I can see how that paycheck is an essential service to them. The notion of closing a society is not sustainable. It divides societies between the paid and not paid. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 23 17:35:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:35:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chameleon tree Message-ID: <00e101d61995$9eb98c30$dc2ca490$@rainier66.com> This note is for the amateur naturalists among us. I have two lace leaf maples in my back yard, a green one and a red one. The green one was crowding the red, so I decided reluctantly to take it out. The red one is a trophy. I started to trim from the outside in, but stopped when I saw something astonishing. The branch I am pointing to was perfectly green. I had assumed it to be part of the green tree, but I traced the branch back to the red tree. The green tree is over on the far left of this photo with the slightly broader leaves. Almost all the foliage in this photo including the part I am pointing to, is connected to the red lace leaf. Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 87509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 18:15:27 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:15:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:26 PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Sure 9-11 was bad, but not nearly as bad as the hell we all still > suffer every day at airports, completely failing at doing any good. > It seems to me the massive security upgrades at airports although annoying has saved many lives. > >I want to move to sweden: > > https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/17/coronavirus-how-countries-across-globe-responding-covid-19/5065867002/ > > > Sure, they have a few more sick than their restrictive neighbors, Denmark > and Norway, but they also have twice the population. That article is ancient, a lot has happened in the last week. It says 146 have died of COVID-19 in Sweden but as of today at 17:37 GMT 2021 people in Sweden have died of it and the death doubling time is 12 days. In Denmark 394 have died and the doubling time is 28 days. In Norway 191 have died and the doubling time is 21 days. I want to move to South Korea, it's far closer to where it all started and yet only 240 people have died from it and the doubling time is 92 days, and they acted early and were super aggressive with testing so unlike the latecomers and magical thinkers they didn't have to shut down their economy to obtain those wonderful results. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Apr 23 18:20:15 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:20:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23/04/2020 18:36, bill w wrote: > to wonder how evolution shaped humans to believe in gods. > > Keith > > That's my question.? Perhaps there is some cognitive function that we > absolutely need to function properly that has the consequence, or side > effect, or extension, of believing in things without data or reason. > > Speculation invited. I always thought that religion was the result of our desire to understand how the world works, but kind of gone wrong. I remember writing a little story a long time ago called "The Heavy Breathing Sea Slapper" or something similar, which was about how people managed to come up with the idea of a crazy invisible being, on the basis of their observations of the weather, and a desire to /explain/ things, at any cost. Another factor is probably our tendency to attribute agency to things, even when it's not appropriate. Kids do this all the time to inanimate objects. Something only needs to have a suggestion of big eyes, and it becomes a friend. There might be a good evolutionary explanation, in the idea that it's better to assume that the rustling in the bushes is a lion, and run away, than to assume it's just the wind, and ignore it. So everything that moves becomes associated with something with (usually malicious) intent. It seems to me that religions started off as just our own curiosity and drive to understand (with maybe a bit of fear and drive to survive, as well), then somehow turned sour. In that view, science and religion have the same roots, just very different outcomes. The real puzzle, to me, is not how religion came to be, but how it persists. There are signs that it might not, in the long term, but that might just be wishful thinking. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 18:21:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:21:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chameleon tree In-Reply-To: <00e101d61995$9eb98c30$dc2ca490$@rainier66.com> References: <00e101d61995$9eb98c30$dc2ca490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I do not know how that happened, but I have what might be a parallel case: variegated privet (ligustrum) is sold to people as an ornamental. Then it starts to revert to the species - putting out all green leaves unlike the two-toned ones which is all it had when it was sold. I am assuming you know privet - vicious weed, spreads everywhere, hard to get rid of. Maybe you will follow this up and tell us what's going on. Tangent: I had hoped that you would respond to my post about the failure of the end of the world to occur as Jesus, Paul and many others since have taught it was happening now. Did it ever occur to you to question that before you gave up your beliefs? bill w On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > This note is for the amateur naturalists among us. > > > > I have two lace leaf maples in my back yard, a green one and a red one. > The green one was crowding the red, so I decided reluctantly to take it > out. The red one is a trophy. > > > > I started to trim from the outside in, but stopped when I saw something > astonishing. The branch I am pointing to was perfectly green. I had > assumed it to be part of the green tree, but I traced the branch back to > the red tree. > > > > The green tree is over on the far left of this photo with the slightly > broader leaves. Almost all the foliage in this photo including the part I > am pointing to, is connected to the red lace leaf. > > > > Cool! > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 87509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 23 18:59:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:59:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] chameleon tree In-Reply-To: References: <00e101d61995$9eb98c30$dc2ca490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011501d619a1$4ae9e580$e0bdb080$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?Tangent: I had hoped that you would respond to my post about the failure of the end of the world to occur as Jesus, Paul and many others since have taught it was happening now. Did it ever occur to you to question that before you gave up your beliefs? bill w Hi BillW, that one can be handled a number of ways. Human lifetimes are short, time is long, even for the literal creationist. If one is an observer of nature however, regardless of one?s pre-existing paradigms and mental filters already in place and firmly established, there are observations that are difficult to miss. These observations brutally overpowered my ability to miss them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 19:04:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:04:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If we think of atheism as a religion, and I don't, then we can think of what religion offers - here is a start: rapture - feeling of oneness with the universe and god- nirvana - peak experiences accompanied by speaking in tongues - feeling of lost identity forgiveness of sins - purification into a better person perhaps through suffering and flagellation and fasting - being forgiven by an agency of the church and thus a god (Jesus loves me) merging identity with fellow believers - being a part of a whole - loved and loving in return more to come - what do you think atheism offers comparable to those things above? bill w On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:26 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 23/04/2020 18:36, bill w wrote: > > to wonder how evolution shaped humans to believe in gods. > > Keith > > That's my question. Perhaps there is some cognitive function that we > absolutely need to function properly that has the consequence, or side > effect, or extension, of believing in things without data or reason. > > Speculation invited. > > > I always thought that religion was the result of our desire to understand > how the world works, but kind of gone wrong. I remember writing a little > story a long time ago called "The Heavy Breathing Sea Slapper" or something > similar, which was about how people managed to come up with the idea of a > crazy invisible being, on the basis of their observations of the weather, > and a desire to *explain* things, at any cost. > > Another factor is probably our tendency to attribute agency to things, > even when it's not appropriate. Kids do this all the time to inanimate > objects. Something only needs to have a suggestion of big eyes, and it > becomes a friend. > > There might be a good evolutionary explanation, in the idea that it's > better to assume that the rustling in the bushes is a lion, and run away, > than to assume it's just the wind, and ignore it. So everything that moves > becomes associated with something with (usually malicious) intent. > > It seems to me that religions started off as just our own curiosity and > drive to understand (with maybe a bit of fear and drive to survive, as > well), then somehow turned sour. In that view, science and religion have > the same roots, just very different outcomes. > > The real puzzle, to me, is not how religion came to be, but how it > persists. There are signs that it might not, in the long term, but that > might just be wishful thinking. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 20:01:11 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:01:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] psychology Message-ID: <05CD5C58-68B8-429E-A960-E74700389A09@gmail.com> Speculations I?ve seen by evolutionary psychologists and others range from spandrel ones (it arose from other adaptations, such as cognitive biases to pattern matching and agency) to more directly adaptive ones (such as it evolved to bond groups more tightly together which made for better survival during crises and conflicts between groups). There are approaches like Justin Barrett?s (see his _Why Would Anyone Believe in God?_) that use cognitive science to analyze religious believe. These are not strictly evolutionary, though the presumption could be that the cognitive structures responsible for religious belief evolved. I?d recommend him over Campbell if you?re looking for a more (and less dated?) scientific approach. (Kind of like Frazer is dated even if he?s immensely popular.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Apr 23, 2020, at 7:28 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 23 20:49:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:49:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas Message-ID: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> One of the most scary things I see in the response to the epidemic is the willingness with which citizens handed away their civil rights. I can see lower-level higher-ranking governments allowing something forbidden by a higher-level lower-ranking government (such as California did with drug laws) but I don't quite see how it works legally if it is the other way around. Under what legal structure does this county propose to prosecute violators? How does it deal with homeless people who have no access to orders from some county bureaucrat and no mask, scarf or banana? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 21:57:53 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:57:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > Under what legal structure does this county propose to prosecute violators? Because they can, until and unless someone files suit to make them stop. > How does it deal with homeless people who have no access to orders from some county bureaucrat and no mask, scarf or banana? It's another excuse to make homelessness a crime, without directly doing so (which they aren't allowed to do, given court precedent that such laws violate the 4th, 8th, and 14th amendments; if this finds its way to court and the lawyer opposing this law is competent at looking up precedent, a few quick citations and this law is legally indefensible). On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > One of the most scary things I see in the response to the epidemic is the > willingness with which citizens handed away their civil rights. > > > > > > > > > > I can see lower-level higher-ranking governments allowing something > forbidden by a higher-level lower-ranking government (such as California > did with drug laws) but I don?t quite see how it works legally if it is the > other way around. > > > > Under what legal structure does this county propose to prosecute violators? > > > > How does it deal with homeless people who have no access to orders from > some county bureaucrat and no mask, scarf or banana? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 22:32:07 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:32:07 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 08:00, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Under what legal structure does this county propose to prosecute > violators? > > > Because they can, until and unless someone files suit to make them stop. > > > > How does it deal with homeless people who have no access to orders from > some county bureaucrat and no mask, scarf or banana? > > > > It's another excuse to make homelessness a crime, without directly doing > so (which they aren't allowed to do, given court precedent that such laws > violate the 4th, 8th, and 14th amendments; if this finds its way to court > and the lawyer opposing this law is competent at looking up precedent, a > few quick citations and this law is legally indefensible). > So is there a mechanism to make people wear masks, if it should be shown that wearing masks will help? On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 1:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> One of the most scary things I see in the response to the epidemic is the >> willingness with which citizens handed away their civil rights. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I can see lower-level higher-ranking governments allowing something >> forbidden by a higher-level lower-ranking government (such as California >> did with drug laws) but I don?t quite see how it works legally if it is the >> other way around. >> >> >> >> Under what legal structure does this county propose to prosecute >> violators? >> >> >> >> How does it deal with homeless people who have no access to orders from >> some county bureaucrat and no mask, scarf or banana? >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 22:36:39 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:36:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] psychology and evolution Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: snip > I always thought that religion was the result of our desire to understand how the world works, but kind of gone wrong. Selection occurs only by individuals failing to reproduce. (Often by dying.) For some trait to become as widespread as religion, at some point in our past having this trait made a big difference in survival. For the traits behind capture-bonding, the selection forces are obvious. Captives who did not bond to captors did not reproduce, most likely they were killed. This selection was around 10% per generation and the result is the trait is widespread if not nearly universal. I am at a loss to imagine how the psychological traits behind religion were directly selected. In addition, what we now consider religions have not been around long enough to cause this selection. When you can't come up with a direct selection story (which you can't for drug addiction) then you need to consider an indirect selection. Wars provide enough evolutionary selection to make those psychological traits close to universal. But the selection path between psychological traits for wars and those for religion is not obvious. I suppose that the psychological traits that allow the warriors to get whipped up on xenophobic memes and go off to kill neighbors might also make them vulnerable to religions. A lot of religions seem to have xenophobic origins. When you invoke Darwinian selection for a psychological trait that has become widespread, you have to consider strong selection over a considerable time. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 23 22:45:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:45:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <019601d619c0$f2bd3630$d837a290$@rainier66.com> >? Because they can, until and unless someone files suit to make them stop? Adrian The governor of New York said today that as many as 13 percent of people tested had antibodies for Covid-19. If so, it suggests perhaps 2.7 million New Yorkers had it or were exposed. If so, New York?s 20k deaths represents about 1% death rate, which isn?t much different from ordinary flu. The studies so far are indicating that UV is a great virus killer. If so, the stay-home orders, as widely interpreted to mean stay indoors, was exactly the wrong advice. This all stands to reason: Covid-19 came from bats, bats live in dark places and come out at night. If all this is right, shutting down the world?s economies will go down as the biggest over-reaction in the history of history, and also the biggest government overreach in the history of history. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 22:47:01 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:47:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: <05CD5C58-68B8-429E-A960-E74700389A09@gmail.com> References: <05CD5C58-68B8-429E-A960-E74700389A09@gmail.com> Message-ID: What if it?s contributed to by the need to coalesce behind a leader? What if ?religion? is just an extension of our drive to be in groups and follow leaders? To be a member of a tribe. For example, many religions feature a high degree on interior cooperation, and sharing of resources. Religious observation is a mechanism to remove free riders and dissent, and integrate multiple Kim groups under a central leader. Being the Patriarch of a family is not enough if you?re trying to rule over 2+ families. From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 23 22:52:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:52:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas >> Under what legal structure does this county propose to prosecute violators? >?So is there a mechanism to make people wear masks, if it should be shown that wearing masks will help? Hi Stathis, this power-tripping county judge thinks so, but I think not. I can?t imagine how the prosecution would continue, should the defendant show up and say she didn?t have a mask. The government cannot make you buy something. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 23:01:25 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:01:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:34 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So is there a mechanism to make people wear masks, if it should be shown > that wearing masks will help? > Whether or not there is sufficient evidence (there is in the eyes of those who gave the orders, and that's what counts), the mechanism is the police arresting people who aren't wearing masks. Most likely, they would confine their results to the most egregious cases, such as people running mass close-contact public events (which are likely to cause spikes in coronavirus cases). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 23 23:26:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:26:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c601d619c6$a80be860$f823b920$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:34 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?So is there a mechanism to make people wear masks, if it should be shown that wearing masks will help? >?Whether or not there is sufficient evidence (there is in the eyes of those who gave the orders, and that's what counts), the mechanism is the police arresting people who aren't wearing masks? It looks like the order itself is on shaky legal ground. It isn?t a law because it wasn?t passed by the state legislature, the government can?t make anyone buy something, so it is legal to not have a mask, and they cannot legally make residents stay indoors. So? they can?t say it is illegal to be outdoors without a maks. This is cool: the number of deaths by C-19 dropped for the first time ever according to the Johns Hopkins site. Let?s hope it drops again tomorrow. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27075 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 23:34:29 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:34:29 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 09:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas > > > > > > > > > > >> Under what legal structure does this county propose to prosecute > violators? > > > > > > >?So is there a mechanism to make people wear masks, if it should be shown > that wearing masks will help? > > > > > > > > Hi Stathis, this power-tripping county judge thinks so, but I think not. > I can?t imagine how the prosecution would continue, should the defendant > show up and say she didn?t have a mask. The government cannot make you buy > something. > But in general, is there a mechanism to make people wear masks, perhaps provided for free? It doesn?t seem to make a huge difference in this pandemic but we can imagine a situation where it would. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 00:05:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:05:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas Hi Stathis, this power-tripping county judge thinks so, but I think not. I can?t imagine how the prosecution would continue, should the defendant show up and say she didn?t have a mask. The government cannot make you buy something. >?But in general, is there a mechanism to make people wear masks, perhaps provided for free? It doesn?t seem to make a huge difference in this pandemic but we can imagine a situation where it would. -- Stathis Papaioannou Eh, good question Stathis. It wouldn?t be enough to just provide them for free. The government would need to deliver the masks to the homes. Otherwise, the resident still doesn?t have them and has no mechanism for acquiring one without leaving the home without one. OK, so this judge proposes (we assume) delivering masks (a whooooolllle loooootta masks) to each home (about 100 day per person would be a good start) and keep delivering them on that schedule, free to the residents, in order to be able to hold to the court that the residents were not obeying her silly orders. But this isn?t sustainable. This judge can order the citizens to wear bananas, but I have no bananas. A question like this came up and continues to come up in the USA with regard to health insurance. The government cannot make the citizens buy something, but they can charge a tax penalty for not having it. That still doesn?t cover the people who don?t have any income, so the Federal government will provide health insurance free. Problem: the government still does not have the authority to make people sign up for free health insurance. So? plenty of them don?t. They just show up at the hospital with no insurance, no money, no nothing, and hospital must somehow cover the costs itself. It?s a hell of a problem. With the masks, what you have are authorities (JUDGES no less) who are a bit unclear on what authority of the ?authorities? have in a case such as this. My prediction is that few if any fines will ever be collected for those who disregarded governors? and sheriff?s orders. The authorities pressured businesses into closing, but pressure is now pressuring back: economic necessity is pressuring them to open back up. They are the part of America whose paychecks don?t keep coming. I find it distressing that America has such a large contingent who disregard the needs of those who rely on paychecks coming at regular intervals without interruption. We have a sloppy stopgap measure with the 1300 bucks to every adult, but a casual observer can see that isn?t sustainable. People need their jobs and they need their paychecks. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 00:57:55 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:57:55 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 10:07, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas > > > > Hi Stathis, this power-tripping county judge thinks so, but I think not. > I can?t imagine how the prosecution would continue, should the defendant > show up and say she didn?t have a mask. The government cannot make you buy > something. > > >?But in general, is there a mechanism to make people wear masks, perhaps > provided for free? It doesn?t seem to make a huge difference in this > pandemic but we can imagine a situation where it would. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Eh, good question Stathis. It wouldn?t be enough to just provide them for > free. The government would need to deliver the masks to the homes. > Otherwise, the resident still doesn?t have them and has no mechanism for > acquiring one without leaving the home without one. > > > > OK, so this judge proposes (we assume) delivering masks (a whooooolllle > loooootta masks) to each home (about 100 day per person would be a good > start) and keep delivering them on that schedule, free to the residents, in > order to be able to hold to the court that the residents were not obeying > her silly orders. But this isn?t sustainable. This judge can order the > citizens to wear bananas, but I have no bananas. > > > > A question like this came up and continues to come up in the USA with > regard to health insurance. The government cannot make the citizens buy > something, but they can charge a tax penalty for not having it. That still > doesn?t cover the people who don?t have any income, so the Federal > government will provide health insurance free. > > > > Problem: the government still does not have the authority to make people > sign up for free health insurance. So? plenty of them don?t. They just > show up at the hospital with no insurance, no money, no nothing, and > hospital must somehow cover the costs itself. It?s a hell of a problem. > > > > With the masks, what you have are authorities (JUDGES no less) who are a > bit unclear on what authority of the ?authorities? have in a case such as > this. My prediction is that few if any fines will ever be collected for > those who disregarded governors? and sheriff?s orders. > > > > The authorities pressured businesses into closing, but pressure is now > pressuring back: economic necessity is pressuring them to open back up. > They are the part of America whose paychecks don?t keep coming. > > > > I find it distressing that America has such a large contingent who > disregard the needs of those who rely on paychecks coming at regular > intervals without interruption. We have a sloppy stopgap measure with the > 1300 bucks to every adult, but a casual observer can see that isn?t > sustainable. People need their jobs and they need their paychecks. > Suppose a new virus emerges which will infect anyone that comes within 10 metres of an asymptomatic carrier, unless the carrier is wearing a mask, and this virus will kill half of the people who are infected. If everyone wears a mask, then in a few weeks the virus will disappear. Given this information, most people will probably voluntarily wear a mask, but not all. Are you saying there is no legal mechanism to enforce mask wearing, with the result that either half the population will die or the economy will permanently shut down because everyone is too afraid to go outside? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 02:45:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:45:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 10:07, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >?Suppose a new virus emerges which will infect anyone that comes within 10 metres of an asymptomatic carrier, unless the carrier is wearing a mask, and this virus will kill half of the people who are infected. If everyone wears a mask, then in a few weeks the virus will disappear. Given this information, most people will probably voluntarily wear a mask, but not all. Are you saying there is no legal mechanism to enforce mask wearing, with the result that either half the population will die or the economy will permanently shut down because everyone is too afraid to go outside? -- >?Stathis Papaioannou Legal mechanism in that case, not that I know of. A president has the power to declare martial law, which would give him extraordinary legal powers, but there are some really really good reasons to not do that. The possibility that a president could declare martial law is a good reason why Americans are heavily armed: under those conditions there aren?t enough military, so the militia is in charge of keeping order in their absence or scarcity. As far as I know, there is nothing analogous to declaring extraordinary war powers that apply at the state level to governors. I have never heard of such a thing. Your scenario brings fresh meaning into the comment ??A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state?? The threat of the Federal government attempting to seize extra-constitutional powers and take over the country is always one that must be taken very seriously. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 03:28:10 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:28:10 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 12:47, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > > > > > On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 10:07, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > >?Suppose a new virus emerges which will infect anyone that comes within > 10 metres of an asymptomatic carrier, unless the carrier is wearing a mask, > and this virus will kill half of the people who are infected. If everyone > wears a mask, then in a few weeks the virus will disappear. Given this > information, most people will probably voluntarily wear a mask, but not > all. Are you saying there is no legal mechanism to enforce mask wearing, > with the result that either half the population will die or the economy > will permanently shut down because everyone is too afraid to go outside? > > -- > > >?Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Legal mechanism in that case, not that I know of. A president has the > power to declare martial law, which would give him extraordinary legal > powers, but there are some really really good reasons to not do that. The > possibility that a president could declare martial law is a good reason why > Americans are heavily armed: under those conditions there aren?t enough > military, so the militia is in charge of keeping order in their absence or > scarcity. > > > > As far as I know, there is nothing analogous to declaring extraordinary > war powers that apply at the state level to governors. I have never heard > of such a thing. > > > > Your scenario brings fresh meaning into the comment ??A well-regulated > militia, being necessary to the security of a free state?? The threat of > the Federal government attempting to seize extra-constitutional powers and > take over the country is always one that must be taken very seriously. > So you are saying that if my scenario occurs, that will be the end of the United States? -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 03:39:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:39:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?So you are saying that if my scenario occurs, that will be the end of the United States? -- Stathis Papaioannou No I don?t think so. Our federal government would be bankrupt and would default on their obligations, but if they held to their constitutional limits it would still be there. Many state governments would also be bankrupt but would still exist, and would still be united, for some of the people survive in your proposed scenario. The United States would still be united with half our current population. Presumably the rest of the world would lose half their populations as well, for viruses do not respect boundaries or borders, as we have seen. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 05:11:17 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 00:11:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <20326493-8769-4DBE-BD34-F4847566CA46@gmail.com> > The government cannot make you buy something. - spike Not true. You are legally obligated to wear clothes in public or you will be a registered sex offender for the rest of your life. SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 05:46:48 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 15:46:48 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 13:41, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > > > > > >?So you are saying that if my scenario occurs, that will be the end of > the United States? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > No I don?t think so. Our federal government would be bankrupt and would > default on their obligations, but if they held to their constitutional > limits it would still be there. Many state governments would also be > bankrupt but would still exist, and would still be united, for some of the > people survive in your proposed scenario. > > > > The United States would still be united with half our current population. > > > > Presumably the rest of the world would lose half their populations as > well, for viruses do not respect boundaries or borders, as we have seen. > But in the rest of the world, even in anarchist societies, they would make everyone wear masks. You are saying there is no legal way to do this in the US, even if almost everyone agrees that it would be a good idea. This would seem to be a problem with the system, if true. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 09:12:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 05:12:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Texas county judge demands residents wear bananas Message-ID: spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > *> One of the most scary things I see in the response to the epidemic is > the willingness with which citizens handed away their civil rights.* It's weird. For 4 years I have been pointing to the many many warning signs that the USA is making a terrifying march toward fascist dictatorship, and I have been severely criticized by you and others for doing so; but apparently you draw the line at this, emergency sanitation and public health measures made in the middle of the worst global pandemic in a century. > *> it suggests perhaps 2.7 million New Yorkers had it or were exposed. If > so, New York?s 20k deaths represents about 1% death rate, which isn?t much > different from ordinary flu. * The 1918 variety perhaps but ordinary flu does not kill 50,243 Americans in less than 2 months with no sign of stopping or even slowing down. The death rate is only one factor that determines how many cadavers a virus can generate, and we know for a fact COVID-19 can produce one hell of a lot of them. *> The studies so far are indicating that UV is a great virus killer. * You must have been watching the daily WrestleMania virus show, the one where after learning that bleach and isopropyl alcohol disinfectant could kill the virus Trump asked on national TV if injecting those disinfectants into the body and somehow shining UV on internal organs could be a wonder cure. And he's the guy in charge of fighting this! *> If so, the stay-home orders, as widely interpreted to mean stay indoors, > was exactly the wrong advice.* And you said I should enter the arrogant olympics, well maybe I could win a silver metal but it's hard to beat claiming to understand how a virus spreads better than every expert epidemiologist on the planet. *> This all stands to reason: Covid-19 came from bats, bats live in dark > places and come out at night.* The evidence Covid-19 came from bats is mediocre at best, and in terms of fighting the virus where it originally came from is irrelevant, today Covid-19 is spread by a species called Homo sapiens. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 11:50:36 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 07:50:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] So much for it being no worse than the ordinary flu Message-ID: Forget Cancer, forget Heart Disease, forget the flu, forget car crashes; Covid-19 is now the leading cause of death for Americans. Take a look at this very interesting graph: Graph of deaths per million versus time John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 12:35:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 05:35:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 13:41, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat . >?.But in the rest of the world, even in anarchist societies, they would make everyone wear masks. You are saying there is no legal way to do this in the US, even if almost everyone agrees that it would be a good idea. This would seem to be a problem with the system, if true. -- Stathis Papaioannou I agree that is a problem with the system but it can be fixed. The rest of the world, even anarchist societies, could adopt the US constitution. Problem fixed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 14:54:14 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:54:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] So much for it being no worse than the ordinary flu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bit scary but the integral is still far lower than those 2 and the difference is those 2 don't have a peak, the integral just keeps growing forever. The integral for covid flattens off soon. Also since deaths follow cases this was obvious and would have been news about a week or two ago when cases peaked. Meaning: we almost definitively know the future for this graph (as long as CFR doesn't change) and it will be below those rates again if it is proportional to cases (it is.) So the real story is: weekly deaths from covid BRIEFLY OUTSTRIPPED those others. Still scary but much less fearmongering (and more true) than what you said. On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 07:53 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Forget Cancer, forget Heart Disease, forget the flu, forget car crashes; > Covid-19 is now the leading cause of death for Americans. Take a look at > this very interesting graph: > > Graph of deaths per million versus time > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 15:04:13 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:04:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thursday, April 23, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dammit, done it again! > > Reposted, with correct Subject line :( > > > > On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in the >> > lack of gods. >> >> This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about >> belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning >> knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. >> > > And thus, a lack of belief. > > > Not necessarily. > Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite knowledge > about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I know > that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. In > fact it rejects logic. > > > > >> Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. Some >> people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an assertion >> that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. >> >> These things are easy to look up. > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism > > "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the existence > of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any > deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the > position that there are no deities." > > I guess both meanings are in use. > > > Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. > > When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe to a > minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not so > much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not > believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a > shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). > > The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the broadest > one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just world-views. > > They're also definitions of God held by different religions or different believers which are scientifically consistent. For example, God as the creator (consistent with the simulation hypothesis), or God as the "world soul" -- the collection of all conscious brings (consistent with open individualism), or God as Truth/Reality (consistent with mathematical realism). It's easy to forget that there's any different religions and God's out there, as well as varying levels sophistications of belief, even within those religions. There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and grow together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume otherwise and say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not only religion but science as well. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 15:20:21 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:20:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 5:39 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I agree that is a problem with the system but it can be fixed. The rest > of the world, even anarchist societies, could adopt the US constitution. > Problem fixed. > But if they did that, they would no longer be anarchist societies. And we couldn't have that, could we? (Or more specifically, they wouldn't permit it.) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 15:23:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:23:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sustainability Message-ID: <009201d61a4c$4e4b1b30$eae15190$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >?Bit scary but the integral is still far lower than those 2 and the difference is those 2 don't have a peak, the integral just keeps growing forever. The integral for covid flattens off soon? Will Hi Will, Ja I have little doubt it is worse than other flu viruses since the 1918 epidemic. Now I am thinking about end games. The whole world recognizes we cannot shut down entire economies for long. It doesn?t matter what kind of safety net a society has: none of them are sustainable with their economies shut down. Without the masses having jobs, these safety nets have nothing to fund them for anything but the short term. People will soon see these safety nets are an illusion, providing only a false sense of security. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 15:37:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:37:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] So much for it being no worse than the ordinary flu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:03 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Graph of deaths per million versus time >*since deaths follow cases this was obvious and would have been news > about a week or two ago when cases peaked. * > I don't know that new cases have peaked. Yesterday April 23 31,900 more Americans got sick from Covid-19, on April 19 only 26,183 did, you'd have to go back to April 17 to find a larger number and even then it was only slightly larger. The shape of this thing's curve is frightening and looks nothing like any flu variety we've ever seen before, perhaps that is to be expected because this is not the flu. But that makes me think confident predictions on what it will do aren't worth much. I sure don't want to bet my life on one. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 15:59:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:59:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] So much for it being no worse than the ordinary flu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What is so frightening about the shape of the curve? On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:39 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The shape of this thing's curve is frightening and looks nothing like any > flu variety we've ever seen before, perhaps that is to be expected because > this is not the flu. But that makes me think confident predictions on what > it will do aren't worth much. I sure don't want to bet my life on one. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 16:38:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:38:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: One thing about religion that may be incompatible with science is worship. Where does a need to worship come from? Why do people get together and say how God is great? Sing hymns to God. Doesn't God know that? So that's irrelevant. Can you see anyone in science worshipping Darwin or Galileo? Tons of respect, all earned - yes. Worship - no. Atheism cannot offer people for people to worship. How about prayer? I think that a study of prayer would show that it just doesn't work on any basis reliable enough to stand up to scientific standards. But some people love to pray , so that's another thing science cannot offer the religious person. And I don't see how science can get along with metaphysics. Science cannot deal with anything unobservable. It's going to take a lot for me to swallow any idea that science and religion can get together somehow. Differen epistemologies, as I said. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thursday, April 23, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Dammit, done it again! >> >> Reposted, with correct Subject line :( >> >> >> >> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>> > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in the >>> > lack of gods. >>> >>> This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about >>> belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning >>> knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. >>> >> >> And thus, a lack of belief. >> >> >> Not necessarily. >> Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite knowledge >> about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I know >> that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. In >> fact it rejects logic. >> >> >> >> >>> Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. Some >>> people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an assertion >>> that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. >>> >>> These things are easy to look up. >> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism >> >> "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the existence >> of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any >> deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the >> position that there are no deities." >> >> I guess both meanings are in use. >> >> >> Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. >> >> When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe to a >> minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not so >> much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not >> believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a >> shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). >> >> The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the broadest >> one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just world-views. >> >> > They're also definitions of God held by different religions or different > believers which are scientifically consistent. > > For example, God as the creator (consistent with the simulation > hypothesis), or God as the "world soul" -- the collection of all conscious > brings (consistent with open individualism), or God as Truth/Reality > (consistent with mathematical realism). > > It's easy to forget that there's any different religions and God's out > there, as well as varying levels sophistications of belief, even within > those religions. > > There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and grow > together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume otherwise and > say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not only religion > but science as well. > > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 16:39:59 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 02:39:59 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 22:38, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 13:41, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > . > > > > > > >?.But in the rest of the world, even in anarchist societies, they would > make everyone wear masks. You are saying there is no legal way to do this > in the US, even if almost everyone agrees that it would be a good idea. > This would seem to be a problem with the system, if true. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > I agree that is a problem with the system but it can be fixed. The rest > of the world, even anarchist societies, could adopt the US constitution. > Problem fixed. > The US constitution can be changed in any way by agreement, and it can also be interpreted in any way by the legislature, so I don?t think you are right that it would force the destruction of the country contrary to the wishes of the population. It may be an impediment to tyrannical takeover, but many countries in the world have fine-sounding constitutions including ones which were or have become tyrannies. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 17:04:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:04:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] psychology and evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Having a god dictate to you is far more impressive than having a chief or shaman tell you what to do. So to answer the question posed to the leader "What makes you so special?" is answered by a god or gods telling the leader what to do. Being directly in touch with a god is an awesome thing, and if you can get people to believe that, you can ask of them anything, including human sacrifice. You start off treating your parents as authorities, then by generalization your other relatives, then tribal leaders and ultimately the tribe's gods. Just generalization is all that is needed to explain this sequence. I probably could get some data to support this (but haven't): I suspect that more people are authoritarian than libertarian and contrarian. 'All we like sheep....' bill w On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 5:43 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ben Zaiboc wrote: > > snip > > > I always thought that religion was the result of our desire to > understand how the world works, but kind of gone wrong. > > Selection occurs only by individuals failing to reproduce. (Often by > dying.) > > For some trait to become as widespread as religion, at some point in > our past having this trait made a big difference in survival. For the > traits behind capture-bonding, the selection forces are obvious. > Captives who did not bond to captors did not reproduce, most likely > they were killed. This selection was around 10% per generation and > the result is the trait is widespread if not nearly universal. > > I am at a loss to imagine how the psychological traits behind religion > were directly selected. In addition, what we now consider religions > have not been around long enough to cause this selection. > > When you can't come up with a direct selection story (which you can't > for drug addiction) then you need to consider an indirect selection. > Wars provide enough evolutionary selection to make those psychological > traits close to universal. But the selection path between > psychological traits for wars and those for religion is not obvious. > > I suppose that the psychological traits that allow the warriors to get > whipped up on xenophobic memes and go off to kill neighbors might also > make them vulnerable to religions. A lot of religions seem to have > xenophobic origins. > > When you invoke Darwinian selection for a psychological trait that has > become widespread, you have to consider strong selection over a > considerable time. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 17:05:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:05:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Papaioannou I agree that is a problem with the system but it can be fixed. The rest of the world, even anarchist societies, could adopt the US constitution. Problem fixed. >?The US constitution ? may be an impediment to tyrannical takeover? Ja. It really works well for that. >?but many countries in the world have fine-sounding constitutions including ones which were or have become tyrannies. -- Stathis Papaioannou The countries which were or have become tyrannies do not have a second amendment. Without second amendment rights, every country is vulnerable to becoming a tyranny. The fine-sounding constitutions without that critical factor do not sound fine to me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 17:16:26 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:16:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:40 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > One thing about religion that may be incompatible with science is > worship. Where does a need to worship come from? Why do people get > together and say how God is great? Sing hymns to God. Doesn't God know > that? So that's irrelevant. Can you see anyone in science worshipping > Darwin or Galileo? Tons of respect, all earned - yes. Worship - no. > Atheism cannot offer people for people to worship. > > How about prayer? I think that a study of prayer would show that it just > doesn't work on any basis reliable enough to stand up to scientific > standards. But some people love to pray , so that's another thing science > cannot offer the religious person. > > And I don't see how science can get along with metaphysics. Science > cannot deal with anything unobservable. > Our theories do. We have theories that describe the interiors of black holes, other branches of the wave function, galaxies and radiation beyond the cosmological horizon, etc. despite none of them being observable. Science tests theories by checking their observable consequences. Often these theories include phenomenon which themselves are not observable (like the big bang/inflation implying the existence of matter beyond the horizon, or the operation of a quantum computer implying the existence of other unobserved parts of the wave function). If we verify the parts of those theories we can observe, then we ought to have confidence in those other parts of the theory that remain unobserved. > It's going to take a lot for me to swallow any idea that science and > religion can get together somehow. Differen epistemologies, as I said. > > The theory of energy underwent many reformulations as our understanding improved. Cannot the same happen for our understanding of God, souls, reality, afterlives, etc.? Can science not investigate these subjects merely because some religion claimed them first? The Bah??? Faith, for instance, is very explicit in its belief that science and religion must be united in harmony. As it's leader described: "*The independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or tradition; *the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal principle and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all religions; the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial, class or national;* the harmony which must exist between religion and science; *the equality of men and women, the two wings on which the bird of human kind is able to soar; the introduction of compulsory education; the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the abolition of the extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world tribunal for the adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation of work, performed in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the glorification of justice as the ruling principle in human society, and of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations; and the establishment of a permanent and universal peace as the supreme goal of all mankind?these stand out as the essential elements [which Bah??u'll?h proclaimed]." Jason > bill w > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thursday, April 23, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Dammit, done it again! >>> >>> Reposted, with correct Subject line :( >>> >>> >>> >>> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>> > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in the >>>> > lack of gods. >>>> >>>> This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about >>>> belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning >>>> knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. >>>> >>> >>> And thus, a lack of belief. >>> >>> >>> Not necessarily. >>> Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite knowledge >>> about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I know >>> that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. In >>> fact it rejects logic. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. Some >>>> people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an >>>> assertion >>>> that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. >>>> >>>> These things are easy to look up. >>> >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism >>> >>> "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the >>> existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief >>> that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically >>> the position that there are no deities." >>> >>> I guess both meanings are in use. >>> >>> >>> Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. >>> >>> When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe to >>> a minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not so >>> much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not >>> believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a >>> shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). >>> >>> The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the >>> broadest one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just >>> world-views. >>> >>> >> They're also definitions of God held by different religions or different >> believers which are scientifically consistent. >> >> For example, God as the creator (consistent with the simulation >> hypothesis), or God as the "world soul" -- the collection of all conscious >> brings (consistent with open individualism), or God as Truth/Reality >> (consistent with mathematical realism). >> >> It's easy to forget that there's any different religions and God's out >> there, as well as varying levels sophistications of belief, even within >> those religions. >> >> There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and grow >> together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume otherwise and >> say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not only religion >> but science as well. >> >> Jason >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Apr 24 17:23:16 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:23:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04e03013-e607-f782-c1d0-f2f0a4821399@zaiboc.net> On 23/04/2020 22:58, bill w wrote: > If we think of atheism as a religion, and I don't, then we can think > of what religion offers - here is a start: > > rapture - feeling of oneness with the universe and god- nirvana - peak > experiences accompanied by speaking in tongues - feeling of lost identity > > forgiveness of sins - purification into a better person perhaps > through suffering and flagellation and fasting - being forgiven by an > agency of the church and thus a god (Jesus loves me) > > merging identity with fellow believers - being a part of a whole - > loved and loving in return > > more to come - what do you think atheism offers comparable to those > things above? > The 'forgiveness of sins' assumes that 'sin' actually means anything real, and to atheists, I should think it doesn't, seeing as how the term relates to the concept of a god. If you don't believe in gods, you don't think 'sin' is a meaningful term. The other things for the most part still seem irrelevant and possibly delusional, but for me, all those things mentioned aren't anything positive at all, so I don't need or want anything to replace them, and there's no need for atheism to offer anything like them. With perhaps two exceptions. The 'oneness with the universe' thing, and love. I am one with the universe, that's just a simple fact, no need for anything mystical or special about it. It certainly doesn't involve a feeling of lost identity. I have no idea why anyone would want that! You can love and be loved without merging identity. Again, nothing special about it, just part of human nature. So, I see no need for atheism to compete with religion for delusional fantasies. That's what we're trying to rise above. Becoming a better person, though, well, that's transhumanism. Except it won't be achieved through daft things like suffering and flagellation, but through technology. And probably the definition of 'better' is going to be different. It definitely doesn't mean becoming more of an abject slave, which is what most religions seem to mean by the term. Bottom line, atheism doesn't offer anything comparable to those things mentioned. It offers far better things, especially when coupled with transhumanism. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Apr 24 17:32:13 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:32:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/04/2020 13:35, SR Ballard wrote: > > The government cannot make you buy something.?- spike > > Not true. You are legally obligated (sic) to wear clothes in public or > you will be a registered sex offender for the rest of your life. > Whaaaat???? How does being naked in public turn you into a sex offender?? I don't know about american law, but in blighty, there's an offence known as 'outraging public decency', and this can potentially be used against naked people, but often isn't. The obligation to wear clothes in public is more of a social norm than a legal thing. As it should be. This flabbergasts me almost as much as the idea of 'school police'. America appears to be a deeply weird place. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 17:47:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:47:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: <04e03013-e607-f782-c1d0-f2f0a4821399@zaiboc.net> References: <04e03013-e607-f782-c1d0-f2f0a4821399@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <001d01d61a60$78ab6790$6a0236b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >.The 'forgiveness of sins' assumes that 'sin' actually means anything real, and to atheists, I should think it doesn't, seeing as how the term relates to the concept of a god. If you don't believe in gods, you don't think 'sin' is a meaningful term. -- Ben Zaiboc Hi Ben, on the contrary sir, the concept of sin survives religion, certainly in my mind it does. There are things I regret having done and said in my life, and I see it perfectly appropriate to call these things my sins. There are those who argue the point: without god you have no concept of sin and no conscience. I have always disputed that notion. As a fun aside. the more rigorous religions have a task ahead of them. To create and maintain a market for their product, they not only need to make the believers feel guilty for their sins, there are plenty of cases where they must make the young believer feel guilty for sins they didn't actually do. Hilarity ensues. I will let you ponder that if you wish, and offer an example if you want it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 17:49:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:49:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002401d61a60$ba8a80b0$2f9f8210$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >.America appears to be a deeply weird place. -- Ben Zaiboc Ja! The weirdest part is we like it this way. Keep America weird! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Apr 24 17:55:22 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:55:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/04/2020 18:16, Jason Resch wrote: Various things. The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not figuring things out. Religions are about prescriptions and proscriptions. You have to do this, you can't do that. You must believe this, you can't question that. That's one problem, rather. Another one is that science is about /finding out/. Religion is about /believing/. In science, evidence is king. In religion, evidence is the enemy. You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things. Fine. Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get. All the things you mention might (or might not) be reasonable, but none of them are any reason to worship, obey a set of commandments, or otherwise bow down and accept unquestioningly what some priest or ancient book tells you. And /that/ is what religion is about. If you, or anyone else, wants to start a religion that's not about power and control, doesn't assert that magic (the supernatural) is real, that doesn't care who you have sex with or what you eat or wear, and doesn't tell you that you must believe certain things without question, great. Go ahead. I might even join it (of course, I'm already a member, on account of being an Omnitheist :D ). But I'd have to ask, what makes it a 'religion'? PS Please don't CC your replies to the list, to my email address. There's no need, and it's annoying. Thanks. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 17:59:48 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:59:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: <001d01d61a60$78ab6790$6a0236b0$@rainier66.com> References: <04e03013-e607-f782-c1d0-f2f0a4821399@zaiboc.net> <001d01d61a60$78ab6790$6a0236b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Ben, of course atheism cannot offer those things, but my point is that people want those things, or many of them do, those that are not just in there for the socializing and business implications. I am with Spike on sin. Big mistakes can certainly be equal to sins. You are sinning not against a god, but against other people and ultimately yourself (since you need to forgive yourself for them). spike, examples from you are always welcome bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > > > >?The 'forgiveness of sins' assumes that 'sin' actually means anything > real, and to atheists, I should think it doesn't, seeing as how the term > relates to the concept of a god. If you don't believe in gods, you don't > think 'sin' is a meaningful term? > > -- > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > > > Hi Ben, on the contrary sir, the concept of sin survives religion, certainly in my mind it does. There are things I regret having done and said in my life, and I see it perfectly appropriate to call these things my sins. > > > > There are those who argue the point: without god you have no concept of sin and no conscience. I have always disputed that notion. > > > > As a fun aside? the more rigorous religions have a task ahead of them. To create and maintain a market for their product, they not only need to make the believers feel guilty for their sins, there are plenty of cases where they must make the young believer feel guilty for sins they didn?t actually do. > > > > Hilarity ensues. > > > > I will let you ponder that if you wish, and offer an example if you want it. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 18:03:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:03:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <002401d61a60$ba8a80b0$2f9f8210$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d61a60$ba8a80b0$2f9f8210$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Ben, by world-wide standards American is a moderately repressive culture when it come to sex. What you see is not what you get. The porn and movies and magazines do not depict at all the values of the population. You have to take a look at laws and customs for those. Trivia: in certain states, a man peeking at a window is guilty of voyeurism, while a woman peeking at a man gets the man a charge of exhibitionism! Trivia; in some states if a married man has sex with another woman, he is guilty of adultery, a felony. If a woman have sex with a man she is not married to, she is guilty of a misdeameanor. (never mind how these are enforced - mostly they aren't) bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > > > >?America appears to be a deeply weird place. > > -- > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > > > Ja! The weirdest part is we like it this way. > > > > Keep America weird! > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 18:05:05 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 04:05:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 03:13, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > Papaioannou > > I agree that is a problem with the system but it can be fixed. The rest > of the world, even anarchist societies, could adopt the US constitution. > Problem fixed. > > > > >?The US constitution ? may be an impediment to tyrannical takeover? > > > > Ja. It really works well for that. > > > > >?but many countries in the world have fine-sounding constitutions > including ones which were or have become tyrannies. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > The countries which were or have become tyrannies do not have a second > amendment. Without second amendment rights, every country is vulnerable to > becoming a tyranny. The fine-sounding constitutions without that critical > factor do not sound fine to me. > The US constitution can easily be interpreted by the judiciary to allow banning of weapons, or formally amended by the legislature. Also, there are countries where citizens have the constitutional right to weapons, such as Mexico and Guatemala, and others where the citizens actually have a lot of weapons, such as Afghanistan and Somalia, and they are not models of democracy. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 18:12:57 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:12:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/04/2020 13:35, SR Ballard wrote: > > > The government cannot make you buy something. - spike > > Not true. You are legally obligated (sic) to wear clothes in public or you > will be a registered sex offender for the rest of your life. > > > Whaaaat???? > > How does being naked in public turn you into a sex offender?? > Nudity, aka public indecency if you're not somewhere where being nude in public is explicitly okay. The "sex offender" might require being somewhere specific, such as wandering around an elementary school naked (while there are children present, so before or after the current coronavirus lockdown). I don't know about american law, but in blighty, there's an offence known > as 'outraging public decency', and this can potentially be used against > naked people, but often isn't. The obligation to wear clothes in public is > more of a social norm than a legal thing. As it should be. > Part of the problem is turning social norms into laws, out of a reaction to people who don't share said norms. > This flabbergasts me almost as much as the idea of 'school police'. > > America appears to be a deeply weird place. > It is. So's everywhere else, save the sliver of the world that any given person deems "normal". Parts of America view each other as weird - for instance, the portions that accept (or at least tolerate) atheism vs. the portions that very much do not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 18:15:47 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:15:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: <001d01d61a60$78ab6790$6a0236b0$@rainier66.com> References: <04e03013-e607-f782-c1d0-f2f0a4821399@zaiboc.net> <001d01d61a60$78ab6790$6a0236b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As a fun aside? the more rigorous religions have a task ahead of them. > To create and maintain a market for their product, they not only need to > make the believers feel guilty for their sins, there are plenty of cases > where they must make the young believer feel guilty for sins they didn?t > actually do. > That's easy: "original sin". The theory is, you were created out of a process that involved sin, therefore you bear part of the burden of that sin just by existing. Just like debt slavery, there might be a notion that you could theoretically do enough good to get out of it, but the people in control keep changing the numbers and moving the goalposts so that you can never escape their clutches. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 24 18:23:16 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:23:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <1067906817.226535.1587752596360@mail.yahoo.com> I agree with Jason. Religion is not going away. It will just evolve into diverse and complex forms. I think that religion and other social institutions are like cultural chromosomes. A collection of memes that mutually reinforce one another and provide a common cultural basis for a given tribe or demographic subculture. What you call "worship" might operate as a memetic greenbeard effect. Similar to Dawkin's greenbeard gene. As such it would be a social display that would be unlikely to be mistaken for "ordinary" behavior. It would serve no rational purpose other than to signal to one another that they belong to the same tribe. Prayer on the other hand might be like the "close door" button in an elevator. It just give someone something to do while they wait for the doors to close or some other desired event, over which they have little control.? Science does not need to get "get together" with religion in order to coexist and evolve side by side with it. Although as a scientist I must say that scientific epiphanies are every bit as spiritually fulfilling as the religious sort. I will never forget the first time I precipitated DNA out of solution and a mass long white threads seemed to appear out of nowhere or the rush I felt when I first understood orbital mechanics. Those experiences were far more moving for me than getting baptized. Perhaps as I scientist, I can be said to worship truth by approximation. Stuart LaForge On Friday, April 24, 2020, 09:39:00 AM PDT, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: One thing about religion that may be incompatible with science is worship.? Where does a need to worship come from?? Why do people get together and say how God is great?? Sing hymns to God.? Doesn't God know that?? So that's irrelevant.? Can you see anyone in science worshipping Darwin or Galileo?? Tons of respect, all earned - yes.? Worship - no.? Atheism cannot offer people for people to worship.?? How about prayer? I think that a study of prayer would show that it just doesn't work on any basis reliable enough to stand up to scientific standards.? But some people love to pray , so that's another thing science cannot offer the religious person. And I don't see how science can get along with metaphysics.? Science cannot deal with anything unobservable.? It's going to take a lot for me to swallow any idea that science and religion can get together somehow.? Different epistemologies, as I said. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Thursday, April 23, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >>?? >>?? >>??Dammit, done it again! >> >> Reposted, with correct Subject line :( >> >> >> >> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >>>?? >>>?? >>>?? >>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>>?? >>>> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>>> agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods.? Atheism is a belief in the >>>>> lack of gods. >>>> >>>> This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about >>>> belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning >>>> knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> And thus, a lack of belief. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> Not necessarily. >> Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite knowledge about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I know that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. In fact it rejects logic. >> >> >> >>>?? >>>?? >>>?? >>>?? >>> ? >>> >>>> Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. Some >>>> people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an assertion >>>> that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. >>>> >>>> These things are easy to look up. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism?? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the existence of deities.? Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist.? In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I guess both meanings are in use. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. >> >> When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe to a minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not so much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). >> >> The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the broadest one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just world-views. >> >> > > They're also definitions of God held by different religions or different believers which are scientifically consistent. > > For example, God as the creator (consistent with the simulation hypothesis), or God as the "world soul" -- the collection of all conscious brings (consistent with open individualism), or God as Truth/Reality (consistent with mathematical realism). > > It's easy to forget that there's any different religions and God's out there, as well as varying levels sophistications of belief, even within those religions. > > There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and grow together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume otherwise and say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not only religion but science as well. > > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 18:42:59 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 04:42:59 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 04:33, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 24/04/2020 13:35, SR Ballard wrote: >> >> > The government cannot make you buy something. - spike >> >> Not true. You are legally obligated (sic) to wear clothes in public or >> you will be a registered sex offender for the rest of your life. >> >> >> Whaaaat???? >> >> How does being naked in public turn you into a sex offender?? >> > > Nudity, aka public indecency if you're not somewhere where being nude in > public is explicitly okay. The "sex offender" might require being > somewhere specific, such as wandering around an elementary school naked > (while there are children present, so before or after the current > coronavirus lockdown). > > I don't know about american law, but in blighty, there's an offence known >> as 'outraging public decency', and this can potentially be used against >> naked people, but often isn't. The obligation to wear clothes in public is >> more of a social norm than a legal thing. As it should be. >> > > Part of the problem is turning social norms into laws, out of a reaction > to people who don't share said norms. > > >> This flabbergasts me almost as much as the idea of 'school police'. >> >> America appears to be a deeply weird place. >> > > It is. So's everywhere else, save the sliver of the world that any given > person deems "normal". Parts of America view each other as weird - for > instance, the portions that accept (or at least tolerate) atheism vs. the > portions that very much do not. > Is there anywhere in the US where an atheist who simply ignored anything to do with religion (which describes most atheists) would be noticed and frowned upon? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 18:44:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:44:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009301d61a68$66a293e0$33e7bba0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >>?The countries which were or have become tyrannies do not have a second amendment. Without second amendment rights, every country is vulnerable to becoming a tyranny. The fine-sounding constitutions without that critical factor do not sound fine to me? spike >?The US constitution can easily be interpreted by the judiciary to allow banning of weapons? That?s why we have weapons: in case the ?judiciary? decides it is allowed to ban weapons. >? or formally amended by the legislature? Not the legislature. The constitution needs a 2/3 majority of the states to agree to any constitutional amendment and ? of the states to ratify. Regarding the first ten amendments, those are not really amendments, but rather acknowledgement of rights that pre-existed before that particular government was invented. The right to free speech, freedom to assemble, to bear arms and so forth, all existed before the US government. The US government does not have the authority to amend or repeal human rights. If it asserts that authority in the future, it no longer the US government and is not entitled to the authorities granted to it by the constitution. At that time, there is no professional army, for there is no authority to collect taxes, and no means of paying them. The absence of a professional army is why we have the militia, as the backup. >?Also, there are countries where citizens have the constitutional right to weapons, such as Mexico and Guatemala, and others where the citizens actually have a lot of weapons, such as Afghanistan and Somalia, and they are not models of democracy. -- Stathis Papaioannou See there, now we are even more thankful that we have a heavily-armed nation which is the model of democracy. Thanks for pointing that out Stathis. Oh I love the constitution. May it live forever. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 19:23:38 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:23:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <009301d61a68$66a293e0$33e7bba0$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> <009301d61a68$66a293e0$33e7bba0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The US government does not have the authority to amend or repeal human > rights. > Yes it does. It also has the authority to establish new human rights, such as freedom from slavery. > If it asserts that authority in the future, it no longer the US government > and is not entitled to the authorities granted to it by the constitution. > No, it would remain the US government. De jure arguments aside, there would without question be enough people still supporting the US government even if it turned fascist, that it would remain the de facto US government. > At that time, there is no professional army, for there is no authority to > collect taxes, and no means of paying them. > Do you really think that none of the professional army would stay on if the US government redefined human rights again? Granted, that whole Civil War issue saw a large chunk of the US's professional army turn against it, but another large chunk continued to serve. Redefining rights to the positive is a more well known example than redefining rights to the negative, though there have arguably been cases where the US Army got involved in police actions of questionable legality, and in those cases things did not end well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 19:24:46 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:24:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> Science cannot deal with anything unobservable. >> > > Our theories do. We have theories that describe the interiors of black > holes, other branches of the wave function, galaxies and radiation beyond > the cosmological horizon, etc. despite none of them being observable. > Yes but, your theories start from observed facts about atoms and molecules and fission and fusion and the spectrums of the black holes, which are observed indirectly via their influence on bodies near them. This is hardly without observations. All scientific theories start with observed facts. Many things are not observable directly, but indirectly. As long as the scientific method is use, with replication etc., you are still doing science. > > It's going to take a lot for me to swallow any idea that science and > religion can get together somehow. Differen epistemologies, as I said. > >> >> > The theory of energy underwent many reformulations as our understanding > improved. Cannot the same happen for our understanding of God, souls, > reality, afterlives, etc.? Can science not investigate these subjects > merely because some religion claimed them first? > You can investigage anything if you can find something to observe. Find my soul, will you? I am going to donate it to any god who will accept it. > > The Bah??? Faith, for instance, is very explicit in its belief that > science and religion must be united in harmony. As it's leader described: > > > "*The independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or > tradition; *the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal principle > and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all religions; > the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial, > class or national;* the harmony which must exist between religion and > science; *the equality of men and women, the two wings on which the bird > of human kind is able to soar; the introduction of compulsory education; > the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the abolition of the > extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world tribunal for the > adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation of work, performed > in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the glorification of > justice as the ruling principle in human society, and > > Th above part is great and wonderful and is more politics than religion. of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations; and > the establishment of a permanent and universal peace as the supreme goal of > all mankind?these stand out as the essential elements [which Bah??u'll?h > proclaimed]." > > This part is too vague to understand. > > Jason > > >> bill w >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 23, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Dammit, done it again! >>>> >>>> Reposted, with correct Subject line :( >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>>> > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in the >>>>> > lack of gods. >>>>> >>>>> This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about >>>>> belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning >>>>> knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. >>>>> >>>> >>>> And thus, a lack of belief. >>>> >>>> >>>> Not necessarily. >>>> Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite knowledge >>>> about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I know >>>> that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. In >>>> fact it rejects logic. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. Some >>>>> people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an >>>>> assertion >>>>> that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. >>>>> >>>>> These things are easy to look up. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism >>>> >>>> "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the >>>> existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief >>>> that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically >>>> the position that there are no deities." >>>> >>>> I guess both meanings are in use. >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. >>>> >>>> When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe to >>>> a minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not so >>>> much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not >>>> believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a >>>> shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). >>>> >>>> The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the >>>> broadest one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just >>>> world-views. >>>> >>>> >>> They're also definitions of God held by different religions or different >>> believers which are scientifically consistent. >>> >>> For example, God as the creator (consistent with the simulation >>> hypothesis), or God as the "world soul" -- the collection of all conscious >>> brings (consistent with open individualism), or God as Truth/Reality >>> (consistent with mathematical realism). >>> >>> It's easy to forget that there's any different religions and God's out >>> there, as well as varying levels sophistications of belief, even within >>> those religions. >>> >>> There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and grow >>> together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume otherwise and >>> say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not only religion >>> but science as well. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 19:27:05 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:27:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: References: <04e03013-e607-f782-c1d0-f2f0a4821399@zaiboc.net> <001d01d61a60$78ab6790$6a0236b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Without original sin people have nothing to be saved from - ergo, they (Baptists, for instance) have to keep believing in it or their religion fails. I hate this idea more than anything I can think of at the moment. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:40 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> As a fun aside? the more rigorous religions have a task ahead of them. >> To create and maintain a market for their product, they not only need to >> make the believers feel guilty for their sins, there are plenty of cases >> where they must make the young believer feel guilty for sins they didn?t >> actually do. >> > > That's easy: "original sin". The theory is, you were created out of a > process that involved sin, therefore you bear part of the burden of that > sin just by existing. Just like debt slavery, there might be a notion that > you could theoretically do enough good to get out of it, but the people in > control keep changing the numbers and moving the goalposts so that you can > never escape their clutches. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 19:37:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:37:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That religion is about control, being the authority, is exactly why the Chinese fight it. Religion is an enemy, another contestant for the hearts of the people. Look at the incredible influence the Roman church had for hundreds of years. Not only influencing politicians, but becoming politicians as well. Politicians had to bow to them. That this is not longer the case, for the most part, is a great and wonderful achievement for the human race. The church just got outrageous and got knocked around and then down. But not out. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:04 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/04/2020 18:16, Jason Resch wrote: > Various things. > > > The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not figuring > things out. Religions are about prescriptions and proscriptions. You have > to do this, you can't do that. You must believe this, you can't question > that. That's one problem, rather. Another one is that science is about *finding > out*. Religion is about *believing*. In science, evidence is king. In > religion, evidence is the enemy. > > You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things. Fine. > Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get. All the things you > mention might (or might not) be reasonable, but none of them are any reason > to worship, obey a set of commandments, or otherwise bow down and accept > unquestioningly what some priest or ancient book tells you. And *that* is > what religion is about. > > If you, or anyone else, wants to start a religion that's not about power > and control, doesn't assert that magic (the supernatural) is real, that > doesn't care who you have sex with or what you eat or wear, and doesn't > tell you that you must believe certain things without question, great. Go > ahead. I might even join it (of course, I'm already a member, on account of > being an Omnitheist :D ). But I'd have to ask, what makes it a 'religion'? > > PS Please don't CC your replies to the list, to my email address. There's > no need, and it's annoying. Thanks. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 19:40:05 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:40:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:52 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is there anywhere in the US where an atheist who simply ignored anything > to do with religion (which describes most atheists) would be noticed and > frowned upon? > Yes, mostly in the South. I stay away from those places. (Theoretically I might visit for work, but if so I would keep my interactions strictly to the work-related area - which would likely be protected by police biased toward those there to do the work.) Even in California, I have received death threats after I explained to an evangelist, who was trying to get me personally to convert, that I was an atheist, though this was some decades ago and atypical for the region. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 19:40:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:40:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> <009301d61a68$66a293e0$33e7bba0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The Bill of Rights is the greatest secular document in history. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:26 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The US government does not have the authority to amend or repeal human >> rights. >> > > Yes it does. It also has the authority to establish new human rights, > such as freedom from slavery. > > >> If it asserts that authority in the future, it no longer the US >> government and is not entitled to the authorities granted to it by the >> constitution. >> > > No, it would remain the US government. De jure arguments aside, there > would without question be enough people still supporting the US government > even if it turned fascist, that it would remain the de facto US government. > > >> At that time, there is no professional army, for there is no authority to >> collect taxes, and no means of paying them. >> > > Do you really think that none of the professional army would stay on if > the US government redefined human rights again? Granted, that whole Civil > War issue saw a large chunk of the US's professional army turn against it, > but another large chunk continued to serve. Redefining rights to the > positive is a more well known example than redefining rights to the > negative, though there have arguably been cases where the US Army got > involved in police actions of questionable legality, and in those cases > things did not end well. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 19:45:26 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 05:45:26 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <009301d61a68$66a293e0$33e7bba0$@rainier66.com> References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> <009301d61a68$66a293e0$33e7bba0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > *>>?*The countries which were or have become tyrannies do not have a > second amendment. Without second amendment rights, every country is > vulnerable to becoming a tyranny. The fine-sounding constitutions without > that critical factor do not sound fine to me? spike > > > > >?The US constitution can easily be interpreted by the judiciary to allow > banning of weapons? > > > > That?s why we have weapons: in case the ?judiciary? decides it is allowed > to ban weapons. > If you are saying the law can be ignored if you don?t like it, why go on about the constitution? > >? or formally amended by the legislature? > > > > Not the legislature. The constitution needs a 2/3 majority of the states > to agree to any constitutional amendment and ? of the states to ratify. > State legislature. > Regarding the first ten amendments, those are not really amendments, but > rather acknowledgement of rights that pre-existed before that particular > government was invented. The right to free speech, freedom to assemble, to > bear arms and so forth, all existed before the US government. > > > > The US government does not have the authority to amend or repeal human > rights. If it asserts that authority in the future, it no longer the US > government and is not entitled to the authorities granted to it by the > constitution. At that time, there is no professional army, for there is no > authority to collect taxes, and no means of paying them. The absence of a > professional army is why we have the militia, as the backup. > Different humans may have different views of what is a human right. The right to bear arms is a good example of this. The people who disagree with you may vote for politicians or appoint judges who will then act accordingly. You can, of course, resist, but you are then going against due legal process, which is in part what you claim to be defending. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 19:47:57 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:47:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <344BDE97-7460-46BC-A006-5F813846FDF5@gmail.com> I?m sorry but (1) women are not allowed to be topless in public in most cities/states. See: https://gotopless.org/topless-laws And (2) Nudity is not legal in most places in the us ?In the United States, states have differing nudity and public decency laws.In most states, state law prohibits exposure of the genitals and/or the female nipples in a public place, while in other states simple nudity is legal? (per wiki) SR Ballard > On Apr 24, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On 24/04/2020 13:35, SR Ballard wrote: >> > The government cannot make you buy something. - spike >> >> Not true. You are legally obligated (sic) to wear clothes in public or you will be a registered sex offender for the rest of your life. >> > > Whaaaat???? > > How does being naked in public turn you into a sex offender?? > > I don't know about american law, but in blighty, there's an offence known as 'outraging public decency', and this can potentially be used against naked people, but often isn't. The obligation to wear clothes in public is more of a social norm than a legal thing. As it should be. > > This flabbergasts me almost as much as the idea of 'school police'. > > America appears to be a deeply weird place. > -- > Ben Zaiboc > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:02:15 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 06:02:15 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:52 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Is there anywhere in the US where an atheist who simply ignored anything >> to do with religion (which describes most atheists) would be noticed and >> frowned upon? >> > > Yes, mostly in the South. I stay away from those places. (Theoretically > I might visit for work, but if so I would keep my interactions strictly to > the work-related area - which would likely be protected by police biased > toward those there to do the work.) > > Even in California, I have received death threats after I explained to an > evangelist, who was trying to get me personally to convert, that I was an > atheist, though this was some decades ago and atypical for the region. > I imagine you would attract attention if you announced that you were an atheist, but if you lived and worked in the South and just never mentioned religion, or politely smiled and moved to the next topic when someone else did, would you be OK? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:17:47 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:17:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: <001d01d61a60$78ab6790$6a0236b0$@rainier66.com> References: <001d01d61a60$78ab6790$6a0236b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0D68BFEC-7249-49E2-8CCC-7F54F9923316@gmail.com> On Apr 24, 2020, at 10:50 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > > >?The 'forgiveness of sins' assumes that 'sin' actually means anything real, and to atheists, I should think it doesn't, seeing as how the term relates to the concept of a god. If you don't believe in gods, you don't think 'sin' is a meaningful term? > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > > Hi Ben, on the contrary sir, the concept of sin survives religion, certainly in my mind it does. There are things I regret having done and said in my life, and I see it perfectly appropriate to call these things my sins. > > There are those who argue the point: without god you have no concept of sin and no conscience. I have always disputed that notion. > > As a fun aside? the more rigorous religions have a task ahead of them. To create and maintain a market for their product, they not only need to make the believers feel guilty for their sins, there are plenty of cases where they must make the young believer feel guilty for sins they didn?t actually do. > > Hilarity ensues. > > I will let you ponder that if you wish, and offer an example if you want it. I believe you?re conflating the concept of sin with morality, guilt, and conscience ? or making them interdependent. I believe without religion, one can still have morality and the like. In fact, atheist moral philosophers do not rest their morality on sin (or divine command theory). Of course, people might bring using ?sin? metaphorically, but then there?s the problem: what?s meant by sin. Sin in religious terms doesn?t mean doing something wrong, it means doing something against god or the gods. For instance, in Christianity the sin of Eve and Adam isn?t that they did something wrong aside from disobeying a divine command. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:29:17 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:29:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19A09A67-068D-4FAB-B65A-D115C88ABA2C@gmail.com> On Apr 24, 2020, at 11:11 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? > Ben, of course atheism cannot offer those things, but my point is that people want those things, or many of them do, those that are not just in there for the socializing and business implications. > > I am with Spike on sin. Big mistakes can certainly be equal to sins. You are sinning not against a god, but against other people and ultimately yourself (since you need to forgive yourself for them). > > spike, examples from you are always welcome > > bill w Again, this conflates sin with mistakes, errors... That can work metaphorically, but then we?re not talking about sin in the religious sense. If me playing piano badly is a sin against music in the metaphorical sense, this really isn?t akin to Original Sin. Ditto for sins against others. This is just a way of stating one has wronged another and needn?t have any religious basis. Likewise, the repudiation of the theological concept of sin doesn?t mean the repudiator is free from blemishes. Finally, with forgiveness, the everyday notion is really unlike the Christian concept. I can forgive a person who wronged me often because they?ve changed, made up for the wrong, etc. But the Christian god is forgiving because the sinner can?t possibly correct the wrong or the flaw and payment is too much ? at least in conventional Christian theology. God?s forgiveness makes up for the human inability to live without sin. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:38:49 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:38:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:23 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:52 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Is there anywhere in the US where an atheist who simply ignored anything >>> to do with religion (which describes most atheists) would be noticed and >>> frowned upon? >>> >> >> Yes, mostly in the South. I stay away from those places. (Theoretically >> I might visit for work, but if so I would keep my interactions strictly to >> the work-related area - which would likely be protected by police biased >> toward those there to do the work.) >> >> Even in California, I have received death threats after I explained to an >> evangelist, who was trying to get me personally to convert, that I was an >> atheist, though this was some decades ago and atypical for the region. >> > > I imagine you would attract attention if you announced that you were an > atheist, but if you lived and worked in the South and just never mentioned > religion, or politely smiled and moved to the next topic when someone else > did, would you be OK? > For a while, yes. (Thus my being willing to attend, say, a week-long conference.) The problem comes when you run into folks who don't let you move on, who insist on talking religion and finding out whether you are a believer or if you are one of the "enemy" who they think that punishing publicly will let them gain, or stay in, control of their community. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 20:43:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:43:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] baby fae Message-ID: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> The theory at the time was that a baby's immune system is not fully formed at birth and could be trained to some extent. Baby Fae was given an outside chance than the baboon heart would last long enough to keep her alive until a suitable human donor could be found. My memories of that are 36 years old, but I remember it well because my former college roommate was in medical school at Loma Linda at the time, and later worked with Dr. Bailey. I was starting my career. I remember how the men would gather around the newspaper first thing in the morning, cheer when it was unrolled and they heard Baby Fae was holding on another day. I remember seeing men weep for her on the day she died. The baboon had type AB blood, Fae had type 0. They knew it was a temporary and they knew it was a longshot. The lessons learned that fall paved the way for later successful cross-species transplants. If you really can't see why that experiment has any value, don't worry, Dr. Bailey wouldn't want you as a patient either. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:43:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 16:43:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] So much for it being no worse than the ordinary flu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:04 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *What is so frightening about the shape of the curve? * > That can't be a serious question but I don't get the joke. Maybe these people can explain it to me. How to medical John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:49:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 15:49:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> <009301d61a68$66a293e0$33e7bba0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The people who disagree with you may vote for politicians or appoint judges who will then act accordingly. You can, of course, resist, but you are then going against due legal process, which is in part what you claim to be defending. Laws are passed all the time which turn out to be erased because a court, all the way up to the Supreme Court, has decided that they are unconstitutional and are then overturned. Abortion laws are passed by states hoping to get some votes from their people, and spend a lot of money defending them, only to have them, like all the other ones they passed, overturned by the Supreme Court - or lower. These cost our very poor state a lot of lawyers' bills. The lawyers know the laws will be overturned but are glad to accept the money. Gun restrictions can go the same way. Thus all of it is just political posturing. bill w -- Stathis Papaioannou On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:09 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >> >> *>>?*The countries which were or have become tyrannies do not have a >> second amendment. Without second amendment rights, every country is >> vulnerable to becoming a tyranny. The fine-sounding constitutions without >> that critical factor do not sound fine to me? spike >> >> >> >> >?The US constitution can easily be interpreted by the judiciary to allow >> banning of weapons? >> >> >> >> That?s why we have weapons: in case the ?judiciary? decides it is allowed >> to ban weapons. >> > If you are saying the law can be ignored if you don?t like it, why go on > about the constitution? > >> >? or formally amended by the legislature? >> >> >> >> Not the legislature. The constitution needs a 2/3 majority of the states >> to agree to any constitutional amendment and ? of the states to ratify. >> > State legislature. > >> Regarding the first ten amendments, those are not really amendments, but >> rather acknowledgement of rights that pre-existed before that particular >> government was invented. The right to free speech, freedom to assemble, to >> bear arms and so forth, all existed before the US government. >> >> >> >> The US government does not have the authority to amend or repeal human >> rights. If it asserts that authority in the future, it no longer the US >> government and is not entitled to the authorities granted to it by the >> constitution. At that time, there is no professional army, for there is no >> authority to collect taxes, and no means of paying them. The absence of a >> professional army is why we have the militia, as the backup. >> > Different humans may have different views of what is a human right. The > right to bear arms is a good example of this. The people who disagree with > you may vote for politicians or appoint judges who will then act > accordingly. You can, of course, resist, but you are then going against due > legal process, which is in part what you claim to be defending. > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:54:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 15:54:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I imagine you would attract attention if you announced that you were an atheist, but if you lived and worked in the South and just never mentioned religion, or politely smiled and moved to the next topic when someone else did, would you be OK? > -- Stathis Papaioannou O*n college campuses atheism is fairly common and accepted, which is where I worked. We have a Unitarian church which is mostly composed of atheists and I have never heard of them being attacked. *Common people would be afraid of you and maybe disgusted by you. *So I would not worry and I have lived in four states in the Deep South. Not one worry. * *bill w* On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:24 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:52 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Is there anywhere in the US where an atheist who simply ignored anything >>> to do with religion (which describes most atheists) would be noticed and >>> frowned upon? >>> >> >> Yes, mostly in the South. I stay away from those places. (Theoretically >> I might visit for work, but if so I would keep my interactions strictly to >> the work-related area - which would likely be protected by police biased >> toward those there to do the work.) >> >> Even in California, I have received death threats after I explained to an >> evangelist, who was trying to get me personally to convert, that I was an >> atheist, though this was some decades ago and atypical for the region. >> > > I imagine you would attract attention if you announced that you were an > atheist, but if you lived and worked in the South and just never mentioned > religion, or politely smiled and moved to the next topic when someone else > did, would you be OK? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:57:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 15:57:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Huh? This is in response to what? bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > The theory at the time was that a baby?s immune system is not fully formed > at birth and could be trained to some extent. Baby Fae was given an > outside chance than the baboon heart would last long enough to keep her > alive until a suitable human donor could be found. > > > > My memories of that are 36 years old, but I remember it well because my > former college roommate was in medical school at Loma Linda at the time, > and later worked with Dr. Bailey. I was starting my career. I remember > how the men would gather around the newspaper first thing in the morning, > cheer when it was unrolled and they heard Baby Fae was holding on another > day. I remember seeing men weep for her on the day she died. > > > > The baboon had type AB blood, Fae had type 0. They knew it was a > temporary and they knew it was a longshot. The lessons learned that fall > paved the way for later successful cross-species transplants. > > > > If you really can?t see why that experiment has any value, don?t worry, > Dr. Bailey wouldn?t want you as a patient either. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 21:08:29 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:08:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > One thing about religion that may be incompatible with science is > worship. Where does a need to worship come from? Why do people get > together and say how God is great? Sing hymns to God. Doesn't God know > that? > God, an omniscient being, doesn't know that and hence has a massive inferiority complex and must be constantly told how great He is. But fortunately Monty Python can teach us The Meaning of Life: Praising God John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 21:09:01 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:09:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] So much for it being no worse than the ordinary flu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a serious question, John. Do you believe this virus is going to continue to grow exponentially until the entire population of the US is infected? On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:01 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:04 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *What is so frightening about the shape of the curve? * >> > > That can't be a serious question but I don't get the joke. Maybe these > people can explain it to me. > > How to medical > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 21:12:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:12:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: <19A09A67-068D-4FAB-B65A-D115C88ABA2C@gmail.com> References: <19A09A67-068D-4FAB-B65A-D115C88ABA2C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018301d61a7d$022ac580$06805080$@rainier66.com> On Apr 24, 2020, at 11:11 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote:? >?I am with Spike on sin? No way Jose! I left before that. As soon as you started talking about? cod? I knew that party was going the wrong direction, then when those fellers brought out that wacky terbacky I said Adios Amigos, I am OUTTA HERE! I wasn?t even there when that business went down. >?spike, examples from you are always welcome bill w When I was at my wedding 36 years ago, I took several of my bride?s old friends aside and asked them what she had ever done wrong. I had been dating her for nearly 3 years and I had never seen anything. What was the biggest mischief she ever got into, that sorta thing. They pondered, and thought, nobody could think of a single thing. Then the husband of one of them said ?Pal, the closest Shelly has ever come to committing a sin is marrying you.? {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 21:33:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 16:33:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Yeah, and the Life of Brian was pretty good too. Prayer helps some people. It really does. Doesn't matter if the prayers aren't answered, mostly. Talking to yourself can be good therapy. Great placebo effect. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 4:29 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > One thing about religion that may be incompatible with science is >> worship. Where does a need to worship come from? Why do people get >> together and say how God is great? Sing hymns to God. Doesn't God know >> that? >> > > God, an omniscient being, doesn't know that and hence has a massive > inferiority complex and must be constantly told how great He is. But > fortunately Monty Python can teach us The Meaning of Life: > > Praising God > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Apr 24 21:33:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:33:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002b01d61a80$110bcb50$332361f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] baby fae Huh? This is in response to what? bill w >>?In 1984 Doctor Leonard Lee Bailey, a Seventh-day Adventist performed the first baboon to human heart transplant? >?I don't want my doctor to engage in doublethink... John K Clark On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: The theory at the time was that a baby?s immune system is not fully formed at birth and could be trained to some extent. Baby Fae was given an outside chance than the baboon heart would last long enough to keep her alive until a suitable human donor could be found. My memories of that are 36 years old, but I remember it well because my former college roommate was in medical school at Loma Linda at the time, and later worked with Dr. Bailey. I was starting my career. I remember how the men would gather around the newspaper first thing in the morning, cheer when it was unrolled and they heard Baby Fae was holding on another day. I remember seeing men weep for her on the day she died. The baboon had type AB blood, Fae had type 0. They knew it was a temporary and they knew it was a longshot. The lessons learned that fall paved the way for later successful cross-species transplants. If you really can?t see why that experiment has any value, don?t worry, Dr. Bailey wouldn?t want you as a patient either. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 21:35:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:35:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] sustainability In-Reply-To: <009201d61a4c$4e4b1b30$eae15190$@rainier66.com> References: <009201d61a4c$4e4b1b30$eae15190$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *It doesn?t matter what kind of safety net a society has: none of them > are sustainable with their economies shut down. * The economies are not totally shut down, not really, I estimate about 30% is still operational. That's not enough to keep everybody at the lifestyle they have been accustomed to but that combined with the huge amount of wealth already stored up is, if properly managed, more than enough to keep great masses of people from starving to death until a vaccine is found, at least in technologically advanced nations. *> Without the masses having jobs, these safety nets have nothing to fund > them for anything but the short term. People will soon see these safety > nets are an illusion, providing only a false sense of security.* If that point is ever reached then society breaks down and civilization ends, so if they're smart Republicans had better wish that point is never reached, especially billionaire Republicans. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 21:43:11 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:43:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? Message-ID: Jason Resch wrote: snip > There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and grow together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume otherwise and say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not only religion but science as well. The only way I can see this sort of convergence is if science eventually understands the psychological mechanisms that result in religions. Science is supposed to lead to an understanding of everything. At some point, it should lead to an understanding of why humans have religions. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 21:58:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:58:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] So much for it being no worse than the ordinary flu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:36 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> It's a serious question, John. Do you believe this virus is going to > continue to grow exponentially until the entire population of the US is > infected?* > That's a entirely different question than the one you previously asked, and I don't claim to have a definitive answer to it but we know for sure that this thing is super infectious so with no quarantine of any sort that is a entirely possible scenario. And if that happens then you'd get about a hundred million people that will be too sick to function for several weeks, and you'd also get several million dead Americans. And the curve tells us this thing works fast so you'd get the entire nightmare at almost the same time overwhelming the medical community. That's why it would be totally irresponsible to pretend we can go back to normal right now. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Apr 24 22:00:07 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 23:00:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] psychology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/04/2020 21:02, bill w wrote: > Without original sin people have nothing to be saved from - ergo, they > (Baptists, for instance) have to keep believing in it or their > religion fails.? I hate this idea more than anything I can think of at > the moment.? bill w I can't emphasise enough how much I agree with this. The concept of 'original sin' is just about the most perverted, evil thing I've ever come across. It is pure evil, and one of the things that made me realise what religion (Judaeo-Christian, at least) really is. On a more light-hearted note, I remember a comedian satirising the absurd idea of jesus dying for our 'sins', saying something like "I hit myself in the foot with a shovel for your mortgage". You're guilty for something someone else supposedly did long ago, then a complete stranger suffers to make up for it. Where is the sense in that? The whole package is so absurd it hurts. And they teach this to little kids! If that's not child abuse, I don't know what is. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Apr 24 22:05:41 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 23:05:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/04/2020 21:02, SR Ballard wrote: > I?m sorry but (1) women are not allowed to be topless in public in > most cities/states. > > See: https://gotopless.org/topless-laws > > And (2) Nudity is not legal in most places in the us Yeah, I'm sorry too. -- Ben Zaiboc From jasonresch at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 22:19:27 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:19:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >>> Science cannot deal with anything unobservable. >>> >> >> Our theories do. We have theories that describe the interiors of black >> holes, other branches of the wave function, galaxies and radiation beyond >> the cosmological horizon, etc. despite none of them being observable. >> > > Yes but, your theories start from observed facts about atoms and molecules > and fission and fusion and the spectrums of the black holes, which are > observed indirectly via their influence on bodies near them. This is > hardly without observations. All scientific theories start with observed > facts. Many things are not observable directly, but indirectly. As long > as the scientific method is use, with replication etc., you are still doing > science. > >> >> It's going to take a lot for me to swallow any idea that science and >> religion can get together somehow. Differen epistemologies, as I said. >> >>> >>> >> The theory of energy underwent many reformulations as our understanding >> improved. Cannot the same happen for our understanding of God, souls, >> reality, afterlives, etc.? Can science not investigate these subjects >> merely because some religion claimed them first? >> > > You can investigage anything if you can find something to observe. Find > my soul, will you? I am going to donate it to any god who will accept it. > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul. There is much that we can glean about the soul just using science. There is scientific support for many ideas that one would typically assume fall into the sphere of religion. For example: eternal life, immortality, reincarnation, afterlives, divine union, the immateriality of the soul and its distinction from the body. In many cases, these conclusions are inevitable if you start from the standard scientific ideas about consciousness (e.g. mechanism). If it can be scientifically demonstrated that your consciousness possesses some or all of these traits, would you call it a soul? Jason > >> The Bah??? Faith, for instance, is very explicit in its belief that >> science and religion must be united in harmony. As it's leader described: >> >> >> "*The independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or >> tradition; *the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal principle >> and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all religions; >> the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial, >> class or national;* the harmony which must exist between religion and >> science; *the equality of men and women, the two wings on which the bird >> of human kind is able to soar; the introduction of compulsory education; >> the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the abolition of the >> extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world tribunal for the >> adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation of work, performed >> in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the glorification of >> justice as the ruling principle in human society, and >> >> > Th above part is great and wonderful and is more politics than religion. > How do you draw a line that separates the two? > > of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations; >> and the establishment of a permanent and universal peace as the supreme >> goal of all mankind?these stand out as the essential elements [which >> Bah??u'll?h proclaimed]." >> >> > This part is too vague to understand. > I take it to mean that having a set of ideals to hold in esteem inoculates society against commuting the worst of atrocities, and also provides a placeholder to prevent the worship of human leaders or nations. Jason > >> Jason >> >> >>> bill w >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, April 23, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dammit, done it again! >>>>> >>>>> Reposted, with correct Subject line :( >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>>>> > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in >>>>>> the >>>>>> > lack of gods. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about >>>>>> belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning >>>>>> knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And thus, a lack of belief. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not necessarily. >>>>> Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite >>>>> knowledge about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I >>>>> know that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. >>>>> In fact it rejects logic. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. >>>>>> Some >>>>>> people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an >>>>>> assertion >>>>>> that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. >>>>>> >>>>>> These things are easy to look up. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism >>>>> >>>>> "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the >>>>> existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief >>>>> that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically >>>>> the position that there are no deities." >>>>> >>>>> I guess both meanings are in use. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. >>>>> >>>>> When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe >>>>> to a minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not >>>>> so much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not >>>>> believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a >>>>> shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). >>>>> >>>>> The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the >>>>> broadest one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just >>>>> world-views. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> They're also definitions of God held by different religions or >>>> different believers which are scientifically consistent. >>>> >>>> For example, God as the creator (consistent with the simulation >>>> hypothesis), or God as the "world soul" -- the collection of all conscious >>>> brings (consistent with open individualism), or God as Truth/Reality >>>> (consistent with mathematical realism). >>>> >>>> It's easy to forget that there's any different religions and God's out >>>> there, as well as varying levels sophistications of belief, even within >>>> those religions. >>>> >>>> There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and >>>> grow together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume >>>> otherwise and say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not >>>> only religion but science as well. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 22:31:48 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:31:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: an understanding of why humans have religions.Keith What religions offer: freedom from fear - "I know where I am going when I die." "I know that my sins are forgiven." "God will protect me from .........." - (fears are the most powerful motivators we know of) rapture - feeling of oneness with the universe and god- nirvana - feeling of lost identity forgiveness of sins by a representative of higher powers- purification into a better person perhaps through suffering and flagellation and fasting merging identity with fellow believers - being a part of a whole - loved and loving in return - getting out of yourself focuses on values beyond materialism, sex, appetites, violence offers opportunites to talk to god through prayer offers opportunities to worship the god through hymns and such So - these are a gracious plenty of good reasons for people to have a religion that in most cases in history were taught to children from birth. To deviate from their religion might, and I will suspect usually did, result in expulsion from the tribe - or worse (see current Muslim thinking on this one) bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:18 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Jason Resch wrote: > > snip > > > There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and grow > together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume otherwise and > say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not only religion > but science as well. > > The only way I can see this sort of convergence is if science > eventually understands the psychological mechanisms that result in > religions. Science is supposed to lead to an understanding of > everything. At some point, it should lead to an understanding of why > humans have religions. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 22:49:56 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:49:56 +1000 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> <009301d61a68$66a293e0$33e7bba0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 07:10, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The people who disagree with you may vote for politicians or appoint > judges who will then act accordingly. You can, of course, resist, but you > are then going against due legal process, which is in part what you claim > to be defending. > > Laws are passed all the time which turn out to be erased because a court, > all the way up to the Supreme Court, has decided that they are > unconstitutional and are then overturned. Abortion laws are passed by > states hoping to get some votes from their people, and spend a lot of money > defending them, only to have them, like all the other ones they passed, > overturned by the Supreme Court - or lower. These cost our very poor state > a lot of lawyers' bills. The lawyers know the laws will be overturned but > are glad to accept the money. Gun restrictions can go the same way. Thus > all of it is just political posturing. > A different Supreme Court, or the same on a different day, might decide differently given exactly the same written law. It is certainly possible they might decide that the right to bear arms does not mean that any ordinary citizen can easily buy a gun. bill w > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:09 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* extropy-chat *On >>> Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >>> >>> *>>?*The countries which were or have become tyrannies do not have a >>> second amendment. Without second amendment rights, every country is >>> vulnerable to becoming a tyranny. The fine-sounding constitutions without >>> that critical factor do not sound fine to me? spike >>> >>> >>> >>> >?The US constitution can easily be interpreted by the judiciary to >>> allow banning of weapons? >>> >>> >>> >>> That?s why we have weapons: in case the ?judiciary? decides it is >>> allowed to ban weapons. >>> >> If you are saying the law can be ignored if you don?t like it, why go on >> about the constitution? >> >>> >? or formally amended by the legislature? >>> >>> >>> >>> Not the legislature. The constitution needs a 2/3 majority of the >>> states to agree to any constitutional amendment and ? of the states to >>> ratify. >>> >> State legislature. >> >>> Regarding the first ten amendments, those are not really amendments, but >>> rather acknowledgement of rights that pre-existed before that particular >>> government was invented. The right to free speech, freedom to assemble, to >>> bear arms and so forth, all existed before the US government. >>> >>> >>> >>> The US government does not have the authority to amend or repeal human >>> rights. If it asserts that authority in the future, it no longer the US >>> government and is not entitled to the authorities granted to it by the >>> constitution. At that time, there is no professional army, for there is no >>> authority to collect taxes, and no means of paying them. The absence of a >>> professional army is why we have the militia, as the backup. >>> >> Different humans may have different views of what is a human right. The >> right to bear arms is a good example of this. The people who disagree with >> you may vote for politicians or appoint judges who will then act >> accordingly. You can, of course, resist, but you are then going against due >> legal process, which is in part what you claim to be defending. >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 22:56:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:56:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: What I read about consciousness I regard as extremely primitive. To me it is just a normal function of most animals' brains. As I am a materialist I think of it as neurons firing, etc. I do not think that consciousness will be able to occur when the brain is dead, so any idea that it could be a soul is itself a dead idea. The idea that the universe is conscious strikes me as something coming out of an LSD experience. If it is immaterial then how are you going to measure it? bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:46 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Science cannot deal with anything unobservable. >>>> >>> >>> Our theories do. We have theories that describe the interiors of black >>> holes, other branches of the wave function, galaxies and radiation beyond >>> the cosmological horizon, etc. despite none of them being observable. >>> >> >> Yes but, your theories start from observed facts about atoms and >> molecules and fission and fusion and the spectrums of the black holes, >> which are observed indirectly via their influence on bodies near them. >> This is hardly without observations. All scientific theories start with >> observed facts. Many things are not observable directly, but indirectly. >> As long as the scientific method is use, with replication etc., you are >> still doing science. >> >>> >>> It's going to take a lot for me to swallow any idea that science and >>> religion can get together somehow. Differen epistemologies, as I said. >>> >>>> >>>> >>> The theory of energy underwent many reformulations as our understanding >>> improved. Cannot the same happen for our understanding of God, souls, >>> reality, afterlives, etc.? Can science not investigate these subjects >>> merely because some religion claimed them first? >>> >> >> You can investigage anything if you can find something to observe. Find >> my soul, will you? I am going to donate it to any god who will accept it. >> > > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul. There is much > that we can glean about the soul just using science. There is scientific > support for many ideas that one would typically assume fall into the sphere > of religion. For example: eternal life, immortality, reincarnation, > afterlives, divine union, the immateriality of the soul and its distinction > from the body. > > In many cases, these conclusions are inevitable if you start from the > standard scientific ideas about consciousness (e.g. mechanism). > > If it can be scientifically demonstrated that your consciousness possesses > some or all of these traits, would you call it a soul? > > Jason > > > >> >>> The Bah??? Faith, for instance, is very explicit in its belief that >>> science and religion must be united in harmony. As it's leader described: >>> >>> >>> "*The independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or >>> tradition; *the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal principle >>> and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all religions; >>> the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial, >>> class or national;* the harmony which must exist between religion and >>> science; *the equality of men and women, the two wings on which the >>> bird of human kind is able to soar; the introduction of compulsory >>> education; the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the abolition of >>> the extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world tribunal for >>> the adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation of work, >>> performed in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the >>> glorification of justice as the ruling principle in human society, and >>> >>> >> Th above part is great and wonderful and is more politics than religion. >> > > > How do you draw a line that separates the two? > > >> >> of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations; >>> and the establishment of a permanent and universal peace as the supreme >>> goal of all mankind?these stand out as the essential elements [which >>> Bah??u'll?h proclaimed]." >>> >>> >> This part is too vague to understand. >> > > I take it to mean that having a set of ideals to hold in esteem > inoculates society against commuting the worst of atrocities, and also > provides a placeholder to prevent the worship of human leaders or nations. > > Jason > > > >> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>>> bill w >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, April 23, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dammit, done it again! >>>>>> >>>>>> Reposted, with correct Subject line :( >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>>>>> > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > lack of gods. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about >>>>>>> belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning >>>>>>> knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And thus, a lack of belief. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Not necessarily. >>>>>> Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite >>>>>> knowledge about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I >>>>>> know that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. >>>>>> In fact it rejects logic. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. >>>>>>> Some >>>>>>> people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an >>>>>>> assertion >>>>>>> that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These things are easy to look up. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism >>>>>> >>>>>> "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the >>>>>> existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief >>>>>> that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically >>>>>> the position that there are no deities." >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess both meanings are in use. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. >>>>>> >>>>>> When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe >>>>>> to a minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not >>>>>> so much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not >>>>>> believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a >>>>>> shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). >>>>>> >>>>>> The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the >>>>>> broadest one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just >>>>>> world-views. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> They're also definitions of God held by different religions or >>>>> different believers which are scientifically consistent. >>>>> >>>>> For example, God as the creator (consistent with the simulation >>>>> hypothesis), or God as the "world soul" -- the collection of all conscious >>>>> brings (consistent with open individualism), or God as Truth/Reality >>>>> (consistent with mathematical realism). >>>>> >>>>> It's easy to forget that there's any different religions and God's out >>>>> there, as well as varying levels sophistications of belief, even within >>>>> those religions. >>>>> >>>>> There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and >>>>> grow together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume >>>>> otherwise and say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not >>>>> only religion but science as well. >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 22:59:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:59:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nah, you are not sorry. If all women went topless and braless the sagging alone would turn you off,much less the overexposure (intended). So I am saying that baring them all the time takes the mystery and the sexiness out of them. No, I cannot explain why some men spend hours on the web drooling over topless women, unless they have way more hormones than I do. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:40 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/04/2020 21:02, SR Ballard wrote: > > I?m sorry but (1) women are not allowed to be topless in public in > > most cities/states. > > > > See: https://gotopless.org/topless-laws > > > > And (2) Nudity is not legal in most places in the us > > Yeah, I'm sorry too. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 23:02:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:02:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <015c01d619b0$9e3c9fc0$dab5df40$@rainier66.com> <01a501d619c1$e140c830$a3c25890$@rainier66.com> <01f401d619cc$20f2e3a0$62d8aae0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d619e2$77fe0dd0$67fa2970$@rainier66.com> <002f01d619ea$024de7b0$06e9b710$@rainier66.com> <003c01d61a34$d96ed7f0$8c4c87d0$@rainier66.com> <010901d61a5a$87bb0d90$973128b0$@rainier66.com> <009301d61a68$66a293e0$33e7bba0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The possibility of a change in abortion laws as a result of a Supreme Court decision is with us. Some would regard a change as likely, unlike the possibility of changes in the gun laws. What might happen with gun laws is that the ability to buy one might be curbed if the person is mentally ill, has a certain criminal record, and so on Some states have these already in place and others not. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:59 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 07:10, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The people who disagree with you may vote for politicians or appoint >> judges who will then act accordingly. You can, of course, resist, but you >> are then going against due legal process, which is in part what you claim >> to be defending. >> >> Laws are passed all the time which turn out to be erased because a court, >> all the way up to the Supreme Court, has decided that they are >> unconstitutional and are then overturned. Abortion laws are passed by >> states hoping to get some votes from their people, and spend a lot of money >> defending them, only to have them, like all the other ones they passed, >> overturned by the Supreme Court - or lower. These cost our very poor state >> a lot of lawyers' bills. The lawyers know the laws will be overturned but >> are glad to accept the money. Gun restrictions can go the same way. Thus >> all of it is just political posturing. >> > > A different Supreme Court, or the same on a different day, might decide > differently given exactly the same written law. It is certainly possible > they might decide that the right to bear arms does not mean that any > ordinary citizen can easily buy a gun. > > bill w >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 3:09 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* extropy-chat *On >>>> Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >>>> >>>> *>>?*The countries which were or have become tyrannies do not have a >>>> second amendment. Without second amendment rights, every country is >>>> vulnerable to becoming a tyranny. The fine-sounding constitutions without >>>> that critical factor do not sound fine to me? spike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >?The US constitution can easily be interpreted by the judiciary to >>>> allow banning of weapons? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That?s why we have weapons: in case the ?judiciary? decides it is >>>> allowed to ban weapons. >>>> >>> If you are saying the law can be ignored if you don?t like it, why go on >>> about the constitution? >>> >>>> >? or formally amended by the legislature? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Not the legislature. The constitution needs a 2/3 majority of the >>>> states to agree to any constitutional amendment and ? of the states to >>>> ratify. >>>> >>> State legislature. >>> >>>> Regarding the first ten amendments, those are not really amendments, >>>> but rather acknowledgement of rights that pre-existed before that >>>> particular government was invented. The right to free speech, freedom to >>>> assemble, to bear arms and so forth, all existed before the US government. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The US government does not have the authority to amend or repeal human >>>> rights. If it asserts that authority in the future, it no longer the US >>>> government and is not entitled to the authorities granted to it by the >>>> constitution. At that time, there is no professional army, for there is no >>>> authority to collect taxes, and no means of paying them. The absence of a >>>> professional army is why we have the militia, as the backup. >>>> >>> Different humans may have different views of what is a human right. The >>> right to bear arms is a good example of this. The people who disagree with >>> you may vote for politicians or appoint judges who will then act >>> accordingly. You can, of course, resist, but you are then going against due >>> legal process, which is in part what you claim to be defending. >>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 23:13:41 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:13:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:03 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/04/2020 18:16, Jason Resch wrote: > Various things. > > > The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not figuring > things out. > I would say that depends on the religion. What about Bahai Faith , Unitarian Universalism , the Universal Life Church , and countless others? > Religions are about prescriptions and proscriptions. You have to do this, > you can't do that. You must believe this, you can't question that. That's > one problem, rather. Another one is that science is about *finding out*. > Religion is about *believing*. > In my view, both religion and science are about believing. You can say religion is the set of beliefs one holds. Science is a tool by which we can refine, deepen and correct errors in our beliefs. > In science, evidence is king. In religion, evidence is the enemy. > Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. Take these words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith: "If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism." According to Carl Sagan, "[Science] works. It is not perfect. It can be misused. It is only a tool. But it is by far the best tool we have, self-correcting, ongoing, applicable to everything. It has two rules. First: there are no sacred truths; all assumptions must be critically examined; arguments from authority are worthless. Second: whatever is inconsistent with the facts must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Cosmos as it is and not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. The obvious is sometimes false; the unexpected is sometimes true." Could we say that Carl Sagan's belief in science his "religion"? Why or why not? What elements of belief are necessary for something to be labeled a religion in your view? How does it square with what these scientists have said about the nature of the relation between religion and science? "Science and religion are both still close to their beginnings, with no ends in sight. Science and religion are both destined to grow and change in the millennia that lie ahead of us, perhaps solving some old mysteries, certainly discovering new mysteries of which we yet have no inkling." -- Freeman Dyson "Science can now offer precisely the consolations in facing death that religion once offered. Religion is now part of science." -- Frank Tippler "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein > > You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things. Fine. > Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get. > I don't need to. All of those examples of different concepts of God I provided are core elements of existing religions. Creator, Truth, Reality, and Consciousness, are the most common descriptions of God across most of the major religions today. For example, just sticking to God as Truth, you find: *Judaism/Christianity:* ?Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth.? -- Psalm 31:5 The mathematician Hilda Phoebe Hudson said ?To all of us who hold the Christian belief that God is truth, anything that is true is a fact about God, and mathematics is a branch of theology.? *Islam*: "Al-?aqq (The Truth, The Real)" -- One of the 99 names of God given in the Koran The Muslim polymath Ibn al-Haytham described his theology saying, ?I constantly sought knowledge and truth, and it became my belief that for gaining access to the effulgence and closeness to God, there is no better way than that of searching for truth and knowledge.? *Hinduism*: "Parabrahmana (The Supreme Absolute Truth)" -- One of the 108 names of Krishna ?I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of the nondifferentiated Brahman mentioned in the Upanishads, being differentiated from the infinity of glories of the mundane universe appears as the indivisible, infinite, limitless, truth.? -- Hymn to the Absolute Truth in the Brahma Sa?hit? Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi said "If it is possible for the human tongue to give the fullest description of God, I have come to the conclusion that God is Truth.? *Sikhism*: ?There is one creator, whose name is truth" -- The Mul Mantar (Root Mantra) These religions account for about half the world's population. It shows that when you get past the fables and mythology, and into the theology of various religions, the concepts of God become much more nuanced. If you want more examples, such as the idea of God as a Creator or God as Consciousness, I can provide those as well. > All the things you mention might (or might not) be reasonable, but none of > them are any reason to worship, obey a set of commandments, or otherwise > bow down and accept unquestioningly what some priest or ancient book tells > you. And *that* is what religion is about. > That perhaps is what it is about to you and perhaps others. But it doesn't have to be that way. There are sets of beliefs compatible with science, and there are ways of believing that incorporate scientific understanding to evolve one's beliefs over time. I agree with you that a static belief system is not as good as one that can adapt in response to new evidence and understanding. I am not arguing for a static belief system, only pointing out that there are frameworks of belief (what you might call religious systems) that transcend the definition of religion that you provide. Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a static belief? How could it ever change? > > If you, or anyone else, wants to start a religion that's not about power > and control, doesn't assert that magic (the supernatural) is real, > To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have. > that doesn't care who you have sex with or what you eat or wear, and > doesn't tell you that you must believe certain things without question, > great. Go ahead. I might even join it (of course, I'm already a member, on > account of being an Omnitheist :D ). But I'd have to ask, what makes it a > 'religion'? > A religion, in my definition, is just a set of beliefs. Perhaps more specifically, a set of basic or fundamental beliefs about reality. > > PS Please don't CC your replies to the list, to my email address. There's > no need, and it's annoying. Thanks. > My apologies. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 23:34:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:34:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have This is a non sequitur and hence false. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:03 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 24/04/2020 18:16, Jason Resch wrote: >> Various things. >> >> >> The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not >> figuring things out. >> > > I would say that depends on the religion. What about Bahai Faith > , Unitarian > Universalism , the Universal Life > Church , and > countless others? > > >> Religions are about prescriptions and proscriptions. You have to do this, >> you can't do that. You must believe this, you can't question that. That's >> one problem, rather. Another one is that science is about *finding out*. >> Religion is about *believing*. >> > > In my view, both religion and science are about believing. You can say > religion is the set of beliefs one holds. Science is a tool by which we can > refine, deepen and correct errors in our beliefs. > > >> In science, evidence is king. In religion, evidence is the enemy. >> > > Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. Take these > words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith: > > "If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a > religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings > upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the > human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! > Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly > fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the > wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the > despairing slough of materialism." > > > According to Carl Sagan, > > "[Science] works. It is not perfect. It can be misused. It is only a tool. > But it is by far the best tool we have, self-correcting, ongoing, > applicable to everything. It has two rules. First: there are no sacred > truths; all assumptions must be critically examined; arguments from > authority are worthless. Second: whatever is inconsistent with the facts > must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Cosmos as it is and > not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. The obvious is sometimes > false; the unexpected is sometimes true." > > > Could we say that Carl Sagan's belief in science his "religion"? Why or > why not? What elements of belief are necessary for something to be labeled > a religion in your view? > > How does it square with what these scientists have said about the nature > of the relation between religion and science? > > "Science and religion are both still close to their beginnings, with no > ends in sight. Science and religion are both destined to grow and change in > the millennia that lie ahead of us, perhaps solving some old mysteries, > certainly discovering new mysteries of which we yet have no inkling." > -- Freeman Dyson > > "Science can now offer precisely the consolations in facing death that > religion once offered. Religion is now part of science." -- Frank Tippler > > "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- > Albert Einstein > > > > >> >> You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things. Fine. >> Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get. >> > > I don't need to. All of those examples of different concepts of God I > provided are core elements of existing religions. Creator, Truth, Reality, > and Consciousness, are the most common descriptions of God across most of > the major religions today. For example, just sticking to God as Truth, you > find: > > > *Judaism/Christianity:* ?Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O > LORD, the God of truth.? -- Psalm 31:5 > The mathematician Hilda Phoebe Hudson said ?To all of us who hold the > Christian belief that God is truth, anything that is true is a fact about > God, and mathematics is a branch of theology.? > > *Islam*: "Al-?aqq (The Truth, The Real)" -- One of the 99 names of God > given in the Koran > The Muslim polymath Ibn al-Haytham described his theology saying, ?I > constantly sought knowledge and truth, and it became my belief that for > gaining access to the effulgence and closeness to God, there is no better > way than that of searching for truth and knowledge.? > > *Hinduism*: "Parabrahmana (The Supreme Absolute Truth)" -- One of the 108 > names of Krishna > ?I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of > the nondifferentiated Brahman mentioned in the Upanishads, being > differentiated from the infinity of glories of the mundane universe appears > as the indivisible, infinite, limitless, truth.? -- Hymn to the Absolute > Truth in the Brahma Sa?hit? > Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi said "If it is possible for the human tongue to > give the fullest description of God, I have come to the conclusion that God > is Truth.? > > *Sikhism*: ?There is one creator, whose name is truth" -- The Mul Mantar > (Root Mantra) > > > These religions account for about half the world's population. It shows > that when you get past the fables and mythology, and into the theology of > various religions, the concepts of God become much more nuanced. If you > want more examples, such as the idea of God as a Creator or God as > Consciousness, I can provide those as well. > > > >> All the things you mention might (or might not) be reasonable, but none >> of them are any reason to worship, obey a set of commandments, or otherwise >> bow down and accept unquestioningly what some priest or ancient book tells >> you. And *that* is what religion is about. >> > > That perhaps is what it is about to you and perhaps others. But it doesn't > have to be that way. There are sets of beliefs compatible with science, and > there are ways of believing that incorporate scientific understanding to > evolve one's beliefs over time. > > I agree with you that a static belief system is not as good as one that > can adapt in response to new evidence and understanding. I am not arguing > for a static belief system, only pointing out that there are frameworks of > belief (what you might call religious systems) that transcend the > definition of religion that you provide. > > Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a static > belief? How could it ever change? > > >> >> If you, or anyone else, wants to start a religion that's not about power >> and control, doesn't assert that magic (the supernatural) is real, >> > > To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently > possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have. > > >> that doesn't care who you have sex with or what you eat or wear, and >> doesn't tell you that you must believe certain things without question, >> great. Go ahead. I might even join it (of course, I'm already a member, on >> account of being an Omnitheist :D ). But I'd have to ask, what makes it a >> 'religion'? >> > > A religion, in my definition, is just a set of beliefs. Perhaps more > specifically, a set of basic or fundamental beliefs about reality. > > >> >> PS Please don't CC your replies to the list, to my email address. There's >> no need, and it's annoying. Thanks. >> > > My apologies. > > Jason > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 23:36:00 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:36:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What I read about consciousness I regard as extremely primitive. To me it > is just a normal function of most animals' brains. As I am a materialist I > think of it as neurons firing, etc. I do not think that consciousness will > be able to occur when the brain is dead, so any idea that it could be a > soul is itself a dead idea. The idea that the universe is conscious > strikes me as something coming out of an LSD experience. If it is > immaterial then how are you going to measure it? > > According to mechanism (the idea that the brain is a machine and that consciousness is merely a product of this machine's operation), then: 1. survival of consciousness beyond the death of a body, 2. reincarnation, 3. the ability for the consciousness to travel to other universes, and 4. the distinction between the body and the consciousness are direct consequences. Mechanism holds that consciousness results from the operation of a machine (the brain). Therefore, consciousness is the result of a pattern of behaviors, not the underlying physical material or matter. If a body dies, you could use a different pile of matter to rebuild that machine and recover the consciousness. The consciousness then would survive beyond the death of any particular incarnation (body) and could reincarnate into new bodies. The analogy is similar to the notion of a story surviving the destruction of one copy of it in a book. The book, like the body, is just one particular token, representing a type (the story). But the type can exist as many different tokens. Most scientists and philosophers of mind ascribe to mechanism. Consciousness then is an informational pattern, not matter or energy. Consciousness has no mass, definite location, nor is it bound to the confines of this universe like the matter is. If in another universe someone recreated on a computer the same patterns the atoms in your brain here follow, then according to mechanism (what nearly every scientist will tell you) your consciousness would be recreated in that other universe. So here we have your "soul"--if you will call it that, surviving the death of the body, reincarnating into new bodies unassociated with the matter, and even leaving the universe to exist in some physically inaccessible realm. You may object that in practice we never re-create brains in such a way to enable reincarnation or allow the consciousness to survive the death of the body, but I disagree. The many worlds of quantum mechanics provides exactly the form of duplication necessary, and results in your consciousness travelling to now physically inaccesible corners of reality. Secondly, if a dying brain approaches zero information content, it results in there being a singular state (the consciousness of zero information). If this conscious state is identical in content to a newly forming brain in a womb, then this provides a mechanism of reincarnating into a new body. Then there is also the simulation hypothesis, where you are a descendent, or jupiter brain, or advanced alien playing sim human, and when you awaken from this game/dream/life you will find yourself in an "immaterial" (simulated/VR) realm where you are free to play "Sim Martian" or have any life of any mortal being you choose. Or, if this is too much, you might just say when your dead that's it. (but then you need to find an alternate theory of consciousness which prohibits these possibilities). Jason > bill w > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:46 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Science cannot deal with anything unobservable. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Our theories do. We have theories that describe the interiors of black >>>> holes, other branches of the wave function, galaxies and radiation beyond >>>> the cosmological horizon, etc. despite none of them being observable. >>>> >>> >>> Yes but, your theories start from observed facts about atoms and >>> molecules and fission and fusion and the spectrums of the black holes, >>> which are observed indirectly via their influence on bodies near them. >>> This is hardly without observations. All scientific theories start with >>> observed facts. Many things are not observable directly, but indirectly. >>> As long as the scientific method is use, with replication etc., you are >>> still doing science. >>> >>>> >>>> It's going to take a lot for me to swallow any idea that science and >>>> religion can get together somehow. Differen epistemologies, as I said. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> The theory of energy underwent many reformulations as our understanding >>>> improved. Cannot the same happen for our understanding of God, souls, >>>> reality, afterlives, etc.? Can science not investigate these subjects >>>> merely because some religion claimed them first? >>>> >>> >>> You can investigage anything if you can find something to observe. Find >>> my soul, will you? I am going to donate it to any god who will accept it. >>> >> >> I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul. There is much >> that we can glean about the soul just using science. There is scientific >> support for many ideas that one would typically assume fall into the sphere >> of religion. For example: eternal life, immortality, reincarnation, >> afterlives, divine union, the immateriality of the soul and its distinction >> from the body. >> >> In many cases, these conclusions are inevitable if you start from the >> standard scientific ideas about consciousness (e.g. mechanism). >> >> If it can be scientifically demonstrated that your consciousness >> possesses some or all of these traits, would you call it a soul? >> >> Jason >> >> >> >>> >>>> The Bah??? Faith, for instance, is very explicit in its belief that >>>> science and religion must be united in harmony. As it's leader described: >>>> >>>> >>>> "*The independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or >>>> tradition; *the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal >>>> principle and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all >>>> religions; the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, >>>> racial, class or national;* the harmony which must exist between >>>> religion and science; *the equality of men and women, the two wings on >>>> which the bird of human kind is able to soar; the introduction of >>>> compulsory education; the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the >>>> abolition of the extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world >>>> tribunal for the adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation >>>> of work, performed in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the >>>> glorification of justice as the ruling principle in human society, and >>>> >>>> >>> Th above part is great and wonderful and is more politics than religion. >>> >> >> >> How do you draw a line that separates the two? >> >> >>> >>> of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations; >>>> and the establishment of a permanent and universal peace as the supreme >>>> goal of all mankind?these stand out as the essential elements [which >>>> Bah??u'll?h proclaimed]." >>>> >>>> >>> This part is too vague to understand. >>> >> >> I take it to mean that having a set of ideals to hold in esteem >> inoculates society against commuting the worst of atrocities, and also >> provides a placeholder to prevent the worship of human leaders or nations. >> >> Jason >> >> >> >>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>>> bill w >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, April 23, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dammit, done it again! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reposted, with correct Subject line :( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>>>>>> > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods. Atheism is a belief in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> > lack of gods. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about >>>>>>>> belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning >>>>>>>> knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And thus, a lack of belief. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not necessarily. >>>>>>> Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite >>>>>>> knowledge about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I >>>>>>> know that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic. >>>>>>> In fact it rejects logic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods. >>>>>>>> Some >>>>>>>> people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an >>>>>>>> assertion >>>>>>>> that no gods exist, but that is a minority view. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> These things are easy to look up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the >>>>>>> existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief >>>>>>> that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically >>>>>>> the position that there are no deities." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess both meanings are in use. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe >>>>>>> to a minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not >>>>>>> so much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not >>>>>>> believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a >>>>>>> shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the >>>>>>> broadest one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just >>>>>>> world-views. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> They're also definitions of God held by different religions or >>>>>> different believers which are scientifically consistent. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example, God as the creator (consistent with the simulation >>>>>> hypothesis), or God as the "world soul" -- the collection of all conscious >>>>>> brings (consistent with open individualism), or God as Truth/Reality >>>>>> (consistent with mathematical realism). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's easy to forget that there's any different religions and God's >>>>>> out there, as well as varying levels sophistications of belief, even within >>>>>> those religions. >>>>>> >>>>>> There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and >>>>>> grow together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume >>>>>> otherwise and say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not >>>>>> only religion but science as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 23:43:38 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:43:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently > possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have > > This is a non sequitur and hence false. bill w > How would you recognize something as supernatural if you saw it? How do you define supernatural? If it's something that by definition can't exist, then it's simply inconsistent to assert it exists. If it's something that goes beyond the contemporary understanding of nature, then the supernatural exists (unless the contemporary understanding of nature is complete.) Though perhaps you have a better definition that avoids this. Jason > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:03 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On 24/04/2020 18:16, Jason Resch wrote: >>> Various things. >>> >>> >>> The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not >>> figuring things out. >>> >> >> I would say that depends on the religion. What about Bahai Faith >> , Unitarian >> Universalism , the Universal Life >> Church , and >> countless others? >> >> >>> Religions are about prescriptions and proscriptions. You have to do >>> this, you can't do that. You must believe this, you can't question that. >>> That's one problem, rather. Another one is that science is about *finding >>> out*. Religion is about *believing*. >>> >> >> In my view, both religion and science are about believing. You can say >> religion is the set of beliefs one holds. Science is a tool by which we can >> refine, deepen and correct errors in our beliefs. >> >> >>> In science, evidence is king. In religion, evidence is the enemy. >>> >> >> Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. Take these >> words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith: >> >> "If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a >> religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings >> upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the >> human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! >> Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly >> fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the >> wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the >> despairing slough of materialism." >> >> >> According to Carl Sagan, >> >> "[Science] works. It is not perfect. It can be misused. It is only a >> tool. But it is by far the best tool we have, self-correcting, ongoing, >> applicable to everything. It has two rules. First: there are no sacred >> truths; all assumptions must be critically examined; arguments from >> authority are worthless. Second: whatever is inconsistent with the facts >> must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Cosmos as it is and >> not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. The obvious is sometimes >> false; the unexpected is sometimes true." >> >> >> Could we say that Carl Sagan's belief in science his "religion"? Why or >> why not? What elements of belief are necessary for something to be labeled >> a religion in your view? >> >> How does it square with what these scientists have said about the nature >> of the relation between religion and science? >> >> "Science and religion are both still close to their beginnings, with no >> ends in sight. Science and religion are both destined to grow and change in >> the millennia that lie ahead of us, perhaps solving some old mysteries, >> certainly discovering new mysteries of which we yet have no inkling." >> -- Freeman Dyson >> >> "Science can now offer precisely the consolations in facing death that >> religion once offered. Religion is now part of science." -- Frank Tippler >> >> "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- >> Albert Einstein >> >> >> >> >>> >>> You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things. >>> Fine. Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get. >>> >> >> I don't need to. All of those examples of different concepts of God I >> provided are core elements of existing religions. Creator, Truth, Reality, >> and Consciousness, are the most common descriptions of God across most of >> the major religions today. For example, just sticking to God as Truth, you >> find: >> >> >> *Judaism/Christianity:* ?Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, >> O LORD, the God of truth.? -- Psalm 31:5 >> The mathematician Hilda Phoebe Hudson said ?To all of us who hold the >> Christian belief that God is truth, anything that is true is a fact about >> God, and mathematics is a branch of theology.? >> >> *Islam*: "Al-?aqq (The Truth, The Real)" -- One of the 99 names of God >> given in the Koran >> The Muslim polymath Ibn al-Haytham described his theology saying, ?I >> constantly sought knowledge and truth, and it became my belief that for >> gaining access to the effulgence and closeness to God, there is no better >> way than that of searching for truth and knowledge.? >> >> *Hinduism*: "Parabrahmana (The Supreme Absolute Truth)" -- One of the >> 108 names of Krishna >> ?I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of >> the nondifferentiated Brahman mentioned in the Upanishads, being >> differentiated from the infinity of glories of the mundane universe appears >> as the indivisible, infinite, limitless, truth.? -- Hymn to the Absolute >> Truth in the Brahma Sa?hit? >> Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi said "If it is possible for the human tongue to >> give the fullest description of God, I have come to the conclusion that God >> is Truth.? >> >> *Sikhism*: ?There is one creator, whose name is truth" -- The Mul Mantar >> (Root Mantra) >> >> >> These religions account for about half the world's population. It shows >> that when you get past the fables and mythology, and into the theology of >> various religions, the concepts of God become much more nuanced. If you >> want more examples, such as the idea of God as a Creator or God as >> Consciousness, I can provide those as well. >> >> >> >>> All the things you mention might (or might not) be reasonable, but none >>> of them are any reason to worship, obey a set of commandments, or otherwise >>> bow down and accept unquestioningly what some priest or ancient book tells >>> you. And *that* is what religion is about. >>> >> >> That perhaps is what it is about to you and perhaps others. But it >> doesn't have to be that way. There are sets of beliefs compatible with >> science, and there are ways of believing that incorporate scientific >> understanding to evolve one's beliefs over time. >> >> I agree with you that a static belief system is not as good as one that >> can adapt in response to new evidence and understanding. I am not arguing >> for a static belief system, only pointing out that there are frameworks of >> belief (what you might call religious systems) that transcend the >> definition of religion that you provide. >> >> Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a static >> belief? How could it ever change? >> >> >>> >>> If you, or anyone else, wants to start a religion that's not about power >>> and control, doesn't assert that magic (the supernatural) is real, >>> >> >> To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently >> possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have. >> >> >>> that doesn't care who you have sex with or what you eat or wear, and >>> doesn't tell you that you must believe certain things without question, >>> great. Go ahead. I might even join it (of course, I'm already a member, on >>> account of being an Omnitheist :D ). But I'd have to ask, what makes it a >>> 'religion'? >>> >> >> A religion, in my definition, is just a set of beliefs. Perhaps more >> specifically, a set of basic or fundamental beliefs about reality. >> >> >>> >>> PS Please don't CC your replies to the list, to my email address. >>> There's no need, and it's annoying. Thanks. >>> >> >> My apologies. >> >> Jason >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 02:00:05 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 19:00:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Original sin, was psychology Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: snip > The concept of 'original sin' is just about the most perverted, evil thing I've ever come across. It is pure evil, and one of the things that made me realise what religion (Judaeo-Christian, at least) really is. I can't say I disagree with you, but I think the concept of original sin was brilliant. It is an observable fact that babies and children die, often quite horribly, before they reach an age where they _can_ sin. If you stipulate an all-powerful and just god, that should not happen. But add in original sin and you have rescued God from logic. I think science and medician are better than original sin for explaining the death of kids too young to sin, but if you don't have them . . . . Keith PS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 02:49:11 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 12:49:11 +1000 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 08:45, Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Science cannot deal with anything unobservable. >>>> >>> >>> Our theories do. We have theories that describe the interiors of black >>> holes, other branches of the wave function, galaxies and radiation beyond >>> the cosmological horizon, etc. despite none of them being observable. >>> >> >> Yes but, your theories start from observed facts about atoms and >> molecules and fission and fusion and the spectrums of the black holes, >> which are observed indirectly via their influence on bodies near them. >> This is hardly without observations. All scientific theories start with >> observed facts. Many things are not observable directly, but indirectly. >> As long as the scientific method is use, with replication etc., you are >> still doing science. >> >>> >>> It's going to take a lot for me to swallow any idea that science and >>> religion can get together somehow. Differen epistemologies, as I said. >>> >>>> >>>> >>> The theory of energy underwent many reformulations as our understanding >>> improved. Cannot the same happen for our understanding of God, souls, >>> reality, afterlives, etc.? Can science not investigate these subjects >>> merely because some religion claimed them first? >>> >> >> You can investigage anything if you can find something to observe. Find >> my soul, will you? I am going to donate it to any god who will accept it. >> > > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul. There is much > that we can glean about the soul just using science. There is scientific > support for many ideas that one would typically assume fall into the sphere > of religion. For example: eternal life, immortality, reincarnation, > afterlives, divine union, the immateriality of the soul and its distinction > from the body. > > In many cases, these conclusions are inevitable if you start from the > standard scientific ideas about consciousness (e.g. mechanism). > > If it can be scientifically demonstrated that your consciousness possesses > some or all of these traits, would you call it a soul? > Good luck with your book, I?d be very interested in reading it. My only problem, and probably this is just prejudice, is with the terminology. I think the word ?soul? is tainted by its use in religion. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 02:52:58 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 21:52:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> Caviat: The scientific study of the human breast is very poor. Bras actually promote the sagging of breasts, according to Rouillon, who wrote a paper on this after 15 years of study. Can?t find a link to the paper itself (should be in French). Though the study has been challenged because it relies on anecdotal reporting on the frequency of bra wearing. Many other factors are the main culprit of sagging breasts. https://journals.lww.com/annalsplasticsurgery/Abstract/2010/05000/Breast_Ptosis__Causes_and_Cure.16.aspx Also, I see no reason why a breast should be seen as sexual. So perhaps increased exposure would be good and people could stop harassing breastfeeding mothers. SR Ballard > On Apr 24, 2020, at 5:59 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Nah, you are not sorry. If all women went topless and braless the sagging alone would turn you off,much less the overexposure (intended). So I am saying that baring them all the time takes the mystery and the sexiness out of them. No, I cannot explain why some men spend hours on the web drooling over topless women, unless they have way more hormones than I do. > > bill w > >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:40 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> On 24/04/2020 21:02, SR Ballard wrote: >> > I?m sorry but (1) women are not allowed to be topless in public in >> > most cities/states. >> > >> > See: https://gotopless.org/topless-laws >> > >> > And (2) Nudity is not legal in most places in the us >> >> Yeah, I'm sorry too. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 02:57:04 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 21:57:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No. People will (eventually) actively bring it up and harass you into talking about it. SR Ballard > On Apr 24, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:52 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> Is there anywhere in the US where an atheist who simply ignored anything to do with religion (which describes most atheists) would be noticed and frowned upon? >> >> Yes, mostly in the South. I stay away from those places. (Theoretically I might visit for work, but if so I would keep my interactions strictly to the work-related area - which would likely be protected by police biased toward those there to do the work.) >> >> Even in California, I have received death threats after I explained to an evangelist, who was trying to get me personally to convert, that I was an atheist, though this was some decades ago and atypical for the region. > > I imagine you would attract attention if you announced that you were an atheist, but if you lived and worked in the South and just never mentioned religion, or politely smiled and moved to the next topic when someone else did, would you be OK? > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 04:58:24 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 00:58:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You picked out the one part of his response that didn't completely destroy your own argument, and singled it out. Jason--they do that here. Express unpopular views at your own risk. William--mind replying to the other parts? On Fri, Apr 24, 2020, 19:37 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently > possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have > > This is a non sequitur and hence false. bill w > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:03 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On 24/04/2020 18:16, Jason Resch wrote: >>> Various things. >>> >>> >>> The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not >>> figuring things out. >>> >> >> I would say that depends on the religion. What about Bahai Faith >> , Unitarian >> Universalism , the Universal Life >> Church , and >> countless others? >> >> >>> Religions are about prescriptions and proscriptions. You have to do >>> this, you can't do that. You must believe this, you can't question that. >>> That's one problem, rather. Another one is that science is about *finding >>> out*. Religion is about *believing*. >>> >> >> In my view, both religion and science are about believing. You can say >> religion is the set of beliefs one holds. Science is a tool by which we can >> refine, deepen and correct errors in our beliefs. >> >> >>> In science, evidence is king. In religion, evidence is the enemy. >>> >> >> Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. Take these >> words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith: >> >> "If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a >> religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings >> upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the >> human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! >> Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly >> fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the >> wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the >> despairing slough of materialism." >> >> >> According to Carl Sagan, >> >> "[Science] works. It is not perfect. It can be misused. It is only a >> tool. But it is by far the best tool we have, self-correcting, ongoing, >> applicable to everything. It has two rules. First: there are no sacred >> truths; all assumptions must be critically examined; arguments from >> authority are worthless. Second: whatever is inconsistent with the facts >> must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Cosmos as it is and >> not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. The obvious is sometimes >> false; the unexpected is sometimes true." >> >> >> Could we say that Carl Sagan's belief in science his "religion"? Why or >> why not? What elements of belief are necessary for something to be labeled >> a religion in your view? >> >> How does it square with what these scientists have said about the nature >> of the relation between religion and science? >> >> "Science and religion are both still close to their beginnings, with no >> ends in sight. Science and religion are both destined to grow and change in >> the millennia that lie ahead of us, perhaps solving some old mysteries, >> certainly discovering new mysteries of which we yet have no inkling." >> -- Freeman Dyson >> >> "Science can now offer precisely the consolations in facing death that >> religion once offered. Religion is now part of science." -- Frank Tippler >> >> "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- >> Albert Einstein >> >> >> >> >>> >>> You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things. >>> Fine. Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get. >>> >> >> I don't need to. All of those examples of different concepts of God I >> provided are core elements of existing religions. Creator, Truth, Reality, >> and Consciousness, are the most common descriptions of God across most of >> the major religions today. For example, just sticking to God as Truth, you >> find: >> >> >> *Judaism/Christianity:* ?Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, >> O LORD, the God of truth.? -- Psalm 31:5 >> The mathematician Hilda Phoebe Hudson said ?To all of us who hold the >> Christian belief that God is truth, anything that is true is a fact about >> God, and mathematics is a branch of theology.? >> >> *Islam*: "Al-?aqq (The Truth, The Real)" -- One of the 99 names of God >> given in the Koran >> The Muslim polymath Ibn al-Haytham described his theology saying, ?I >> constantly sought knowledge and truth, and it became my belief that for >> gaining access to the effulgence and closeness to God, there is no better >> way than that of searching for truth and knowledge.? >> >> *Hinduism*: "Parabrahmana (The Supreme Absolute Truth)" -- One of the >> 108 names of Krishna >> ?I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of >> the nondifferentiated Brahman mentioned in the Upanishads, being >> differentiated from the infinity of glories of the mundane universe appears >> as the indivisible, infinite, limitless, truth.? -- Hymn to the Absolute >> Truth in the Brahma Sa?hit? >> Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi said "If it is possible for the human tongue to >> give the fullest description of God, I have come to the conclusion that God >> is Truth.? >> >> *Sikhism*: ?There is one creator, whose name is truth" -- The Mul Mantar >> (Root Mantra) >> >> >> These religions account for about half the world's population. It shows >> that when you get past the fables and mythology, and into the theology of >> various religions, the concepts of God become much more nuanced. If you >> want more examples, such as the idea of God as a Creator or God as >> Consciousness, I can provide those as well. >> >> >> >>> All the things you mention might (or might not) be reasonable, but none >>> of them are any reason to worship, obey a set of commandments, or otherwise >>> bow down and accept unquestioningly what some priest or ancient book tells >>> you. And *that* is what religion is about. >>> >> >> That perhaps is what it is about to you and perhaps others. But it >> doesn't have to be that way. There are sets of beliefs compatible with >> science, and there are ways of believing that incorporate scientific >> understanding to evolve one's beliefs over time. >> >> I agree with you that a static belief system is not as good as one that >> can adapt in response to new evidence and understanding. I am not arguing >> for a static belief system, only pointing out that there are frameworks of >> belief (what you might call religious systems) that transcend the >> definition of religion that you provide. >> >> Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a static >> belief? How could it ever change? >> >> >>> >>> If you, or anyone else, wants to start a religion that's not about power >>> and control, doesn't assert that magic (the supernatural) is real, >>> >> >> To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently >> possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have. >> >> >>> that doesn't care who you have sex with or what you eat or wear, and >>> doesn't tell you that you must believe certain things without question, >>> great. Go ahead. I might even join it (of course, I'm already a member, on >>> account of being an Omnitheist :D ). But I'd have to ask, what makes it a >>> 'religion'? >>> >> >> A religion, in my definition, is just a set of beliefs. Perhaps more >> specifically, a set of basic or fundamental beliefs about reality. >> >> >>> >>> PS Please don't CC your replies to the list, to my email address. >>> There's no need, and it's annoying. Thanks. >>> >> >> My apologies. >> >> Jason >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 05:44:40 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 00:44:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Monday, April 20, 2020, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thank you, bill w, for putting much more clearly and concisely than I've > been able to do, why religion and transhumanism are not compatible. > I'm curious what you make of the Mormon Transhumanist Association: https://transfigurism.org/ Are they not religious or not Transhumanist? Why couldn't one have, for example, the religious belief that one day we will create or become God? For example: Ray Kurzweil says, ?Evolution moves toward greater complexity, greater elegance, greater knowledge, greater intelligence, greater beauty, greater creativity, greater love. And God has been called all these things, only without any limitation: infinite knowledge, infinite intelligence, infinite beauty, infinite creativity, and infinite love. Evolution does not achieve an infinite level, but as it explodes exponentially, it certainly moves in that direction. So evolution moves inexorably toward our conception of God, albeit never reaching this ideal." Frank Tipler, in his book The Physics of Immortality writes, "Any cosmology with progress to infinity will necessarily end in God." David Deutsch writes, "In the final anthropic principle or if anything like an infinite amount of computation taking place is going to be true, which I think is highly plausible one way or another, then the universe is heading towards something that might be called omniscience." These transhumanist ideas have a conception that we are evolving towards God. And that one day we may be "Gods" from the perspective of life/universe/simulations we create. For example, we might have the power to create a black hole computer (which in a sense is a pocket universe cut off from our own), in creating the blackhole we control the inputs and the computation it performs. Would that make the beings who designed and created such a universe a God from the perspective of those beings who might arise within it? Are we gods to the Game of Life gliders that wiggle across our screens, or the worm brains that we've uploaded into the Worm Matrix ? Jason > And thank you, Ben. Thanks are extremely rare in the group (???). > > I think you cannot get more basic than epistemology. "Hyou know?" is the > most basic question. I wish school children were taught the ways to answer > this. > > bill w > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:40 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 19/04/2020 19:46, billw wrote: >> >> Empiricism is science and its methods and belief has no place in it. We >> don't believe in Darwin's ideas: we follow them because they are the best >> at predicting and explaining phenomena we study. Empirical facts like the >> finches. >> >> There is no way a person who is basically an empiricist and another who >> uses authoritarianism and intuition, to have a debate. They are accepting >> things based on entirely different criteria and so are talking at cross >> purposes. >> >> >> Thank you, bill w, for putting much more clearly and concisely than I've >> been able to do, why religion and transhumanism are not compatible. >> >> This doesn't mean that a religious person can't also be a transhumanist, >> or vice-versa, but just as with the civil engineer that Spike was talking >> about, they are going to have two incompatible world-views going on >> (assuming that 'religious' and 'transhumanist' keep their normal meanings, >> as I've discussed before), and just like Spike, I can't really imagine what >> kind of mental gymnastics you'd have to go through to sustain that and not >> go crazy. In fact, I suspect that 'crazy' is really the only sensible way >> to describe such a person. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Apr 25 06:32:47 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 07:32:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Soul (was: Re: No gods, no meaning?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/04/2020 23:57, Jason Resch wrote: > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul Oh, wow! You realise how revolutionary this is? Before you write your book, I think you should publish your scientific evidence for the existence of a soul. I always thought it was just a fantasy, some non-falsifiable made-up idea to make it easier to control people. Be prepared for lots of questions. Personally, I'm interested to know: What is it, exactly? Does your soul remember your past? How does it relate to the mind and the brain? What is it made of? What is its mass? Do dogs have souls? (Socialists, Canadians, hamsters, goldfish, etc...?) How does it arise? (can we make one in the laboratory?) and, of course, what is your proof that it exists? I'm sure there will be many more questions, if you can demonstrate that you're actually on to something. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Apr 25 06:47:41 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 07:47:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Clothing laws (was: Re: e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f13259c-91a8-9c67-7a43-b3aa1560b9e2@zaiboc.net> On 25/04/2020 00:36, bill w wrote: > Nah, you are not sorry.? If all women went topless and braless the > sagging alone would turn you off,much less the overexposure > (intended).? ?So I am saying that baring them all the time takes the > mystery and the sexiness out of them.? No, I cannot explain why some > men spend hours on the web drooling over topless women, unless they > have way more hormones than I do. > > bill w > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:40 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On 24/04/2020 21:02, SR Ballard wrote: > > I?m sorry but (1) women are not allowed to be topless in public in > > most cities/states. > > > > See: https://gotopless.org/topless-laws > > > > And (2) Nudity is not legal in most places in the us > > Yeah, I'm sorry too. > What I'm sorry about is the fact that these things are thought to be suitable subjects for legislation. If there were no such laws, I'm confident all women wouldn't go topless, the point is not the toplessness/nudity, but the forbidding of it. By law! Ha, I just thought of something. In light of what was said earlier, about the law being unable to compel someone to buy facemasks, or anything else, what if someone manages to get rid of all their clothes? "Sorry officer, I'm not wearing clothes because I don't have any" :D -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 07:00:30 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:00:30 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <93c9074d-8e83-1dca-195c-628039c7071f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Yes, Jason, scientific imagination brings us to contemplate visions that are indistinguishable from religion. Rejecting these visions brings us to reject scientific imagination, and the resulting "science" is too dull and boring to be worth paying attention to. I am a member of the MTA (of course). On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 7:46 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Monday, April 20, 2020, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Thank you, bill w, for putting much more clearly and concisely than I've been able to do, why religion and transhumanism are not compatible. > > > I'm curious what you make of the Mormon Transhumanist Association: https://transfigurism.org/ > > Are they not religious or not Transhumanist? > > > Why couldn't one have, for example, the religious belief that one day we will create or become God? For example: > > Ray Kurzweil says, ?Evolution moves toward greater complexity, greater elegance, greater knowledge, greater intelligence, greater beauty, greater creativity, greater love. And God has been called all these things, only without any limitation: infinite knowledge, infinite intelligence, infinite beauty, infinite creativity, and infinite love. Evolution does not achieve an infinite level, but as it explodes exponentially, it certainly moves in that direction. So evolution moves inexorably toward our conception of God, albeit never reaching this ideal." > > Frank Tipler, in his book The Physics of Immortality writes, "Any cosmology with progress to infinity will necessarily end in God." > > David Deutsch writes, "In the final anthropic principle or if anything like an infinite amount of computation taking place is going to be true, which I think is highly plausible one way or another, then the universe is heading towards something that might be called omniscience." > > > These transhumanist ideas have a conception that we are evolving towards God. And that one day we may be "Gods" from the perspective of life/universe/simulations we create. For example, we might have the power to create a black hole computer (which in a sense is a pocket universe cut off from our own), in creating the blackhole we control the inputs and the computation it performs. Would that make the beings who designed and created such a universe a God from the perspective of those beings who might arise within it? Are we gods to the Game of Life gliders that wiggle across our screens, or the worm brains that we've uploaded into the Worm Matrix? > > Jason > >> >> And thank you, Ben. Thanks are extremely rare in the group (???). >> >> I think you cannot get more basic than epistemology. "Hyou know?" is the most basic question. I wish school children were taught the ways to answer this. >> >> bill w >> >> On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:40 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> On 19/04/2020 19:46, billw wrote: >>> >>> Empiricism is science and its methods and belief has no place in it. We don't believe in Darwin's ideas: we follow them because they are the best at predicting and explaining phenomena we study. Empirical facts like the finches. >>> >>> There is no way a person who is basically an empiricist and another who uses authoritarianism and intuition, to have a debate. They are accepting things based on entirely different criteria and so are talking at cross purposes. >>> >>> >>> Thank you, bill w, for putting much more clearly and concisely than I've been able to do, why religion and transhumanism are not compatible. >>> >>> This doesn't mean that a religious person can't also be a transhumanist, or vice-versa, but just as with the civil engineer that Spike was talking about, they are going to have two incompatible world-views going on (assuming that 'religious' and 'transhumanist' keep their normal meanings, as I've discussed before), and just like Spike, I can't really imagine what kind of mental gymnastics you'd have to go through to sustain that and not go crazy. In fact, I suspect that 'crazy' is really the only sensible way to describe such a person. >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Zaiboc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From jasonresch at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 07:21:24 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 02:21:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul (was: Re: No gods, no meaning?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/04/2020 23:57, Jason Resch wrote: > > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul > > Oh, wow! > > You realise how revolutionary this is? > > Before you write your book, I think you should publish your scientific > evidence for the existence of a soul. > > The evidence and theories are already published and out there. These theories aren't my theories, I only demonstrate what these theories imply for the properties of the soul (consciousness). > I always thought it was just a fantasy, some non-falsifiable made-up > idea to make it easier to control people. > You're conscious aren't you? You probably are thinking "I have a consciousness, but I don't have a soul" Consider if my book shows how well-established scientific theories (special relativity, quantum mechanics, the computational theory of mind, mathematical platonism, etc.) -- all standard theories by scientists in those domains--inevitably lead to the conclusion that your consciousness is eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, resurrect, and is in a manner one with all other consciousnesses. If your consciousness indeed possesses these properties, would it not be more apt to call it a soul? > Be prepared for lots of questions. Personally, I'm interested to know: > > What is it, exactly? > Consciousness. > Does your soul remember your past? > There are situations in which you will find yourself in a position where you have consolidated memories from many experienced lives. For instance, awaking as a Jupiter brain that just spent the last hour living the lives of every being on a particular planet it chose to simulate. To put this in a more human-relatable example, do you remember playing as Link from Zelda, and Mario from Super Mario Brothers? Now consider the perspective of a billion year old uploaded being who has lived a million lifetimes in fully immersive VR (and uses memory blockers while in game) and wakes up after dying in the game. How does it relate to the mind and the brain? > Consciousness is a result of the computation performed by the brain or any other computational substrate. If you believe in mathematical platonism, some minds can exist as the mathematical equivalent of a Boltzmann brain, i.e. as a Turing machine with unlimited computational resources where that Turing machine exists purely as a mathematical object without a base universe. But those are probably far more rare compared to brains that evolve from simpler systems such as ourselves. > What is it made of? > Patterns of information; computation. > What is its mass? > Information has no mass, however the machinery of one particular instance (incarnation) of a mind can have a mass. > Do dogs have souls? (Socialists, Canadians, hamsters, goldfish, etc...?) > As far as we know. Though I don't know if it can ever be proved, the cost of being wrong (wrongly assuming something doesn't have a soul) can be very high. Descartes for example performed vivisections on his own dogs, under the assumption that they has no consciousness and despite their cries were not suffering. > How does it arise? (can we make one in the laboratory?) > > Many computer programs running on our laptops or phones may possess some minimum consciousness. Consciousness is awareness of information. Self-driving cars probably have at least insect-level consciousness. I like to say that the "If statement " is the atom of consciousness, since it is the most basic aspect in programming where a system can react differently based on the state of some information. For there to be information, some system or processed must be informed, which means that system or process has to enter a different state based on that information. > and, of course, what is your proof that it exists? > > Roughly it comes down to these two things: 1. The fact that you know you are conscious (consciousness exists) + 2. The rational conclusions that can be drawn from assuming our best scientific theories are true, which imply all the aforementioned properties of consciousness. > I'm sure there will be many more questions, if you can demonstrate that > you're actually on to something. > Let me know if you have any others. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 08:01:34 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:01:34 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Soul (was: Re: No gods, no meaning?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason is right, scientific theories of the soul are already published and out there. Not by lesser scientists, but by top Nobel-level scientists. I outline some of these theories in my book: https://turingchurch.net/tales-of-the-turing-church-23f4aa4050c6 On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:23 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> On 24/04/2020 23:57, Jason Resch wrote: >> > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul >> >> Oh, wow! >> >> You realise how revolutionary this is? >> >> Before you write your book, I think you should publish your scientific >> evidence for the existence of a soul. >> > > The evidence and theories are already published and out there. These theories aren't my theories, I only demonstrate what these theories imply for the properties of the soul (consciousness). > > >> >> I always thought it was just a fantasy, some non-falsifiable made-up >> idea to make it easier to control people. > > > You're conscious aren't you? > > You probably are thinking "I have a consciousness, but I don't have a soul" > > Consider if my book shows how well-established scientific theories (special relativity, quantum mechanics, the computational theory of mind, mathematical platonism, etc.) -- all standard theories by scientists in those domains--inevitably lead to the conclusion that your consciousness is eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, resurrect, and is in a manner one with all other consciousnesses. > > If your consciousness indeed possesses these properties, would it not be more apt to call it a soul? > >> >> Be prepared for lots of questions. Personally, I'm interested to know: >> >> What is it, exactly? > > > Consciousness. > >> >> Does your soul remember your past? > > > There are situations in which you will find yourself in a position where you have consolidated memories from many experienced lives. For instance, awaking as a Jupiter brain that just spent the last hour living the lives of every being on a particular planet it chose to simulate. > > To put this in a more human-relatable example, do you remember playing as Link from Zelda, and Mario from Super Mario Brothers? Now consider the perspective of a billion year old uploaded being who has lived a million lifetimes in fully immersive VR (and uses memory blockers while in game) and wakes up after dying in the game. > >> How does it relate to the mind and the brain? > > > Consciousness is a result of the computation performed by the brain or any other computational substrate. If you believe in mathematical platonism, some minds can exist as the mathematical equivalent of a Boltzmann brain, i.e. as a Turing machine with unlimited computational resources where that Turing machine exists purely as a mathematical object without a base universe. But those are probably far more rare compared to brains that evolve from simpler systems such as ourselves. > >> >> What is it made of? > > > Patterns of information; computation. > >> >> What is its mass? > > > Information has no mass, however the machinery of one particular instance (incarnation) of a mind can have a mass. > >> >> Do dogs have souls? (Socialists, Canadians, hamsters, goldfish, etc...?) > > > As far as we know. Though I don't know if it can ever be proved, the cost of being wrong (wrongly assuming something doesn't have a soul) can be very high. Descartes for example performed vivisections on his own dogs, under the assumption that they has no consciousness and despite their cries were not suffering. > >> >> How does it arise? (can we make one in the laboratory?) >> > > Many computer programs running on our laptops or phones may possess some minimum consciousness. Consciousness is awareness of information. Self-driving cars probably have at least insect-level consciousness. > > I like to say that the "If statement" is the atom of consciousness, since it is the most basic aspect in programming where a system can react differently based on the state of some information. For there to be information, some system or processed must be informed, which means that system or process has to enter a different state based on that information. > >> >> and, of course, what is your proof that it exists? >> > > Roughly it comes down to these two things: > 1. The fact that you know you are conscious (consciousness exists) + 2. The rational conclusions that can be drawn from assuming our best scientific theories are true, which imply all the aforementioned properties of consciousness. > >> >> I'm sure there will be many more questions, if you can demonstrate that >> you're actually on to something. > > > Let me know if you have any others. > > Jason > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 08:05:32 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:05:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Soul (was: Re: No gods, no meaning?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: btw I propose answers to all Ben's questions in the book. On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:01 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > Jason is right, scientific theories of the soul are already published > and out there. Not by lesser scientists, but by top Nobel-level > scientists. I outline some of these theories in my book: > https://turingchurch.net/tales-of-the-turing-church-23f4aa4050c6 > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:23 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > >> > >> On 24/04/2020 23:57, Jason Resch wrote: > >> > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul > >> > >> Oh, wow! > >> > >> You realise how revolutionary this is? > >> > >> Before you write your book, I think you should publish your scientific > >> evidence for the existence of a soul. > >> > > > > The evidence and theories are already published and out there. These theories aren't my theories, I only demonstrate what these theories imply for the properties of the soul (consciousness). > > > > > >> > >> I always thought it was just a fantasy, some non-falsifiable made-up > >> idea to make it easier to control people. > > > > > > You're conscious aren't you? > > > > You probably are thinking "I have a consciousness, but I don't have a soul" > > > > Consider if my book shows how well-established scientific theories (special relativity, quantum mechanics, the computational theory of mind, mathematical platonism, etc.) -- all standard theories by scientists in those domains--inevitably lead to the conclusion that your consciousness is eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, resurrect, and is in a manner one with all other consciousnesses. > > > > If your consciousness indeed possesses these properties, would it not be more apt to call it a soul? > > > >> > >> Be prepared for lots of questions. Personally, I'm interested to know: > >> > >> What is it, exactly? > > > > > > Consciousness. > > > >> > >> Does your soul remember your past? > > > > > > There are situations in which you will find yourself in a position where you have consolidated memories from many experienced lives. For instance, awaking as a Jupiter brain that just spent the last hour living the lives of every being on a particular planet it chose to simulate. > > > > To put this in a more human-relatable example, do you remember playing as Link from Zelda, and Mario from Super Mario Brothers? Now consider the perspective of a billion year old uploaded being who has lived a million lifetimes in fully immersive VR (and uses memory blockers while in game) and wakes up after dying in the game. > > > >> How does it relate to the mind and the brain? > > > > > > Consciousness is a result of the computation performed by the brain or any other computational substrate. If you believe in mathematical platonism, some minds can exist as the mathematical equivalent of a Boltzmann brain, i.e. as a Turing machine with unlimited computational resources where that Turing machine exists purely as a mathematical object without a base universe. But those are probably far more rare compared to brains that evolve from simpler systems such as ourselves. > > > >> > >> What is it made of? > > > > > > Patterns of information; computation. > > > >> > >> What is its mass? > > > > > > Information has no mass, however the machinery of one particular instance (incarnation) of a mind can have a mass. > > > >> > >> Do dogs have souls? (Socialists, Canadians, hamsters, goldfish, etc...?) > > > > > > As far as we know. Though I don't know if it can ever be proved, the cost of being wrong (wrongly assuming something doesn't have a soul) can be very high. Descartes for example performed vivisections on his own dogs, under the assumption that they has no consciousness and despite their cries were not suffering. > > > >> > >> How does it arise? (can we make one in the laboratory?) > >> > > > > Many computer programs running on our laptops or phones may possess some minimum consciousness. Consciousness is awareness of information. Self-driving cars probably have at least insect-level consciousness. > > > > I like to say that the "If statement" is the atom of consciousness, since it is the most basic aspect in programming where a system can react differently based on the state of some information. For there to be information, some system or processed must be informed, which means that system or process has to enter a different state based on that information. > > > >> > >> and, of course, what is your proof that it exists? > >> > > > > Roughly it comes down to these two things: > > 1. The fact that you know you are conscious (consciousness exists) + 2. The rational conclusions that can be drawn from assuming our best scientific theories are true, which imply all the aforementioned properties of consciousness. > > > >> > >> I'm sure there will be many more questions, if you can demonstrate that > >> you're actually on to something. > > > > > > Let me know if you have any others. > > > > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 10:05:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 06:05:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:31 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Could we say that Carl Sagan's belief in science his "religion"?* Sure, I don't know if it will still be true after the November 3 election (or non-election) but right now you have freedom of speech. *> Why or why not? What elements of belief are necessary for something to > be labeled a religion in your view?* You can define a word any way you want, but some resulting sentences using those redefined words contain more information than others. If you say "I am religious" with religious defined as a belief in God and God defined as a omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe then I have obtained new information about you. But if God is not omnipotent or omniscient and hasn't created anything and isn't even a being but instead God is defined as an amorphous grey blob of indeterminate size that doesn't do anything specific then if you tell me "I am religious" I have received zero bits of new information about you because everybody believes in amorphous grey blobs that don't do much of anything. In spite of this many intellectuals insist on defining "God" in just this vague nebulous sort of way, although they long ago abandoned the idea of God for some reason that I don't understand they're still in love with the 3 character ASCII sequence G-O-D and still want to say "I believe in God" even though the word no longer means anything. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Apr 25 10:06:49 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:06:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39ed8efc-4161-be6b-490d-438d52b67eed@zaiboc.net> Ben: "The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not figuring things out." Jason: "I would say that depends on the religion. What about Bahai Faith, Unitarian Universalism, the Universal Life Church, and countless others?" Almost all religions forbid (sometimes with severe penalties), or at least strongly discourage, homosexuality. Even Sikhism, which is one of the least offensive religions I know of, prohibits a bunch of silly things like getting your hair cut, having sex with the wrong person, drinking, etc. And of course there's no need to even mention the Judaeo-Christian religions, we all know what they're like. The Bahai faith forbids homosexuality and gambling. Hinduism has various food rules, taboos concerning women and feet, and of course the 'sex with the wrong person' thing that just about every religion has (question: do you know of /any/ contemporary religion that doesn't have this? Why do religions arrogate to themselves the right to tell you who you can and can't have sex with? Why do they even think it's any of their business?) Notice I'm not talking about things like a ban on murder, theft or extortion (in fact, some of those things are even encouraged in some religions, under some circumstances), but things that are either literally harmless or a matter of opinion. This is symptomatic of systems that have control as one of their goals. "No, you can't do that". "Why not, it's not hurting anyone?". "Because I (or this book, or that imaginary man in the sky) say so, that's why not. Just do as you're told". Or some pathetic attempt to disguise 'because I said so' such as "Because it makes baby jesus cry". Some of the major prohibitions: Sikhism Haircuts: Cutting or removing hair from any body part is strictly forbidden Intoxication: Consumption of drugs, Alcohol and tobacco, and other intoxicants is not allowed for Amritdhari Sikhs and Keshdhari Sikhs. Drugs and tobacco are forbidden for all. Strict prohibition on eating meat killed in a ritualistic manner (such as halal or kosher) Having extramarital sexual relations Bahai Homosexuality Gambling Islam Just about everything, including leaving Islam Christianity Homosexuality, a ton of other things Jason: "In my view, both religion and science are about believing" Science is manifestly not about believing. It's about observing, theorising, testing and revising. Belief is about holding something to be true, no matter what. Belief is static. You can believe something that is true, but you can just as easily believe something that is false. There is no difference between the two in a belief. A difference in the real-world consequences, yes, but not in the belief itself. Science is fluid, responsive, and is always getting closer to the truth, while never quite getting there. Belief already has 'The Truth' (in the minds of believers, at least), so there's no need to investigate further. In fact, it's usually discouraged. Ben: "In science, evidence is king. In religion, evidence is the enemy" Jason: 'Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. Take these words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith: ??? "If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism."' Religion, in general is contrary to logical reason. That's one of the things that usuallly characterise it. Otherwise, we'd call it 'logical reason'. "the despairing slough of materialism" is a revealing phrase. Why call it that? I'm a card-carrying, dyed-in-the-wool hard-core materialist. Odd, then, that I'm not wallowing in a slough of despair, is it not? In fact, my attitude to life is very far from despair. About as far as you can get (although I sometimes despair of /people/. Usually religious people). So just what does that phrase reveal? Personally, I think it reveals fear. Fear that magic might not be true. Existential angst. Fear that Kierkegaard might have been right. Perhaps even fear of the personal responsibility that's implied by relinquishing supernatural fantasies and embracing materialism. After all, if you can't rely on a god to guide and look after you, you're on your own, and that can be scary. I remember being scared like that, as a kid, and not wanting to grow up and have to look after myself. Then I grew up, and started to look after myself. In my opinion, religion and science are not like two wings, but two propellers, one pointing forwards, and one pointing backwards. Ben: "You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things. Fine. Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get" Jason: "I don't need to. All of those examples of different concepts of God I provided are core elements of existing religions" Yes, you can cherry-pick whatever you like, to be compatible with whatever argument you like. For example, I've heard people use Einstein's remark about god not playing dice with the universe to be proof that he believed in god. We can play that game all day, it doesn't resolve anything. Give that Hilda Phoebe Hudson to your average christian, what do you think they'll make of it? Also, of course every religion claims 'truth' for itself. The problem is, they're very often conflicting 'truths'. For most believers, their god is not some abstract concept like Truth or Consciousness, but an all-powerful nosy and vindictive being that watches your every move, and punishes you for disobeying your priest. If you're very lucky (and obedient), you might get rewarded with some ill-defined paradise. After you're dead. Core elements of religions tend to be things like the baffling holy trinity, the obnoxious concept of original sin, the insecurity of the god in question, it's interest in our sex lives, punishments and rewards for obeying or not, the imperative to convert non-believers, a ton of rules about things you can't do, or must do, great detail about the horrors that await the naughty, much vaguer ideas about the rewards that await the compliant, and lots and lots of stories, most of which are irrelevant to modern life, baffling to most people, and hence in need of interpretation by the priests. "There are sets of beliefs compatible with science" Only if you redefine the word 'beliefs'. Science requires evidence. Belief does not. I suppose you could claim that the belief that the sun will rise tomorrow is compatible with the scientific observations that lead to the same conclusion. But they are different things. One does not need evidence, the other does. One doesn't have to be explained, the other does. Maybe not such a problem with things like the sunrise, but a big, big problem when it comes to things like whether or not you should eat peanut butter on the second thursday of the month. Or the existence of a soul. Or the age of the earth. So if you confine your 'beliefs' to things that can be demonstrated to be true using the scientific method, yes, there are beliefs that are compatible with science. But can you really call them 'beliefs'? We need to distinguish between things that are held to be true because we can show evidence or a good logical argument, and things that are held to be true just because. Which usually means some emotional investment in an idea. "I agree with you that a static belief system is not as good as one that can adapt in response to new evidence and understanding. I am not arguing for a static belief system, only pointing out that there are frameworks of belief (what you might call religious systems) that transcend the definition of religion that you provide" What I'm saying is that a 'belief system that can adapt in response to new evidence' is not a belief system at all, it's science. If you are not arguing for a static belief system, you're arguing for science. And if you say Science is a religion, again we have a problem with words. If you say that whales are fish, you've lost the ability to distinguish the real differences between them. You have to start using qualifiers such as 'milk-producing fish', which just leads back to needing different words for the two different things. If you want a word that encompasses both, then I'd suggest 'world-view'. This seems to fit, as a scientific world-view and a religious one are both ways of trying to understand the world, taking different approaches. If you say "Ah, but this religion takes the same approach as science", then it's no longer a religion, it's science. Jason: "Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a static belief? How could it ever change?" No, his definition is not a static belief. Because it's not based on dogma. It's based on observation. "Science works" is not an unsupported belief, it's an observation. To say that Sagan had a belief in science is not correct. Everything in your quote is subject to falsification and if necessary, revision. You can't say that about any 'holy gospels' which are held to be eternally true, inviolable, infallible. Which of course is utter nonsense. How could it ever change? Through observation of conflicting evidence. If, for example, we observed that how we wish things to be, consistently and reliably changed reality, then the statement "We must understand the Cosmos as it is and not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be" would be falsified. I can't speak for Sagan, and neither can anyone else now that he's dead, but I would certainly change my own opinions if the example above came to pass. And anyone who wouldn't, couldn't say that they have a scientific world-view. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 10:12:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 06:12:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Huh? This is in response to what? bill w > On April 21 I said this: "Speaking of the Thought Police and George Orwell, it would be entirely appropriate for academics to have a strong bias against an Astronomy professor who believed the universe was created on October 23 4004 BC, or a professor of Evolutionary Biology who thought every word of the Noah Ark story was literally true because, according to my Newspeak dictionary, the best word to describe that sort of behavior is Doublethink. And that is not conducive to competence or even sanity." John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Apr 25 10:31:05 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:31:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25/04/2020 00:36, Jason Resch wrote: > According to mechanism (the idea that the brain is a machine and that > consciousness is merely a product of this machine's operation), then: > 1. survival of consciousness beyond the death of a body, > 2. reincarnation, > 3. the ability for the consciousness to travel to other universes, and > 4. the distinction between the body and the consciousness are direct > consequences. > > Mechanism?holds that consciousness results from the operation of a > machine (the brain). Therefore, consciousness is the result of a > pattern of behaviors, not the underlying physical material or matter. > If a body dies, you could use a different pile of matter to rebuild > that machine and recover the consciousness. The consciousness then > would survive beyond the death of any particular incarnation (body) > and could reincarnate into new bodies. The analogy is similar to the > notion of a story surviving the destruction of one copy of it in a > book. The book, like the body, is just one particular token, > representing a type (the story). But the type can exist as many > different tokens. > > Most scientists and philosophers of mind ascribe to mechanism.? > Consciousness then is an informational pattern, not matter or energy. > Consciousness has no mass, definite location, nor is it bound to the > confines of this universe like the matter is.? If in another universe > someone recreated on a computer the same patterns the atoms in your > brain here follow, then according to mechanism (what nearly every > scientist will tell you) your consciousness?would be recreated in that > other universe. > > So here we have your "soul"--if you will call it that, surviving the > death of the body, reincarnating into new bodies unassociated with the > matter, and even leaving the universe to exist in some physically > inaccessible realm. > > You may object that in practice we never re-create?brains in such a > way to enable reincarnation or allow the consciousness to survive the > death of the body, but I disagree. The many worlds of quantum > mechanics provides exactly the form of duplication necessary, and > results in your consciousness travelling to now physically inaccesible > corners of reality.? Secondly, if a dying brain approaches zero > information content, it results in there being a singular state (the > consciousness of zero information). If this conscious state is > identical in content to a newly forming brain in a womb, then this > provides a mechanism of reincarnating into a new body.? Then there is > also the simulation hypothesis, where you are a descendent, or jupiter > brain, or advanced alien playing sim human, and when you awaken from > this game/dream/life you will find yourself in an "immaterial" > (simulated/VR) realm where you are free to play "Sim Martian" or have > any life of any mortal being you choose. > > Or, if this is too much, you might just say when your dead that's it. > (but then you need to find an alternate theory of consciousness which > prohibits these possibilities). > Your terminology is more suggestive of supernatural concepts than scientific ones, but I see what you're getting at. However, you seem to be ignoring the vital role of matter and energy in implementing information. There's no such thing as information without matter and/or energy. There's no such thing as a mind without a brain. I do say that when you're dead, that's it. In the absence of some intervention to record, transfer and restore the information in the brain. I'm saying nothing about other universes or quantum physics, I'm not qualified to, but in this universe, in the macroscopic world we're all familiar with, it seems that minds are produced by the functioning of brains. If we can reproduce the functions exactly, as you say, we have reproduced the mind. That doesn't mean that if a brain is destroyed, the mind isn't also destroyed. The things you are calling 'reincarnation' (I really don't like using that term, for the reason above) can indeed happen, but only if someone does something to achieve it. Absent that, you're dead, Jim. Some people dispute this, quoting things like the holographic universe theory, but again, I'm not qualified to comment on that, and I certainly wouldn't want to rely on it. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 10:34:39 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 06:34:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul. There is much > that we can glean about the soul just using science. There is scientific > support for many ideas that one would typically assume fall into the sphere > of religion. For example: eternal life, immortality, reincarnation, > afterlives, divine union, the immateriality of the soul and its distinction > from the body.* I'm not sure what "divine union" means but all those other ideas are not incompatible with information as Claude Shannon described the word. But there are important differences too, the soul can't be duplicated but information can be, and the inner workings of the soul can never be understood but information can be, in fact information is the only thing that can be understood. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 11:48:05 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 21:48:05 +1000 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 20:32, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 25/04/2020 00:36, Jason Resch wrote: > > According to mechanism (the idea that the brain is a machine and that > > consciousness is merely a product of this machine's operation), then: > > 1. survival of consciousness beyond the death of a body, > > 2. reincarnation, > > 3. the ability for the consciousness to travel to other universes, and > > 4. the distinction between the body and the consciousness are direct > > consequences. > > > > Mechanism holds that consciousness results from the operation of a > > machine (the brain). Therefore, consciousness is the result of a > > pattern of behaviors, not the underlying physical material or matter. > > If a body dies, you could use a different pile of matter to rebuild > > that machine and recover the consciousness. The consciousness then > > would survive beyond the death of any particular incarnation (body) > > and could reincarnate into new bodies. The analogy is similar to the > > notion of a story surviving the destruction of one copy of it in a > > book. The book, like the body, is just one particular token, > > representing a type (the story). But the type can exist as many > > different tokens. > > > > Most scientists and philosophers of mind ascribe to mechanism. > > Consciousness then is an informational pattern, not matter or energy. > > Consciousness has no mass, definite location, nor is it bound to the > > confines of this universe like the matter is. If in another universe > > someone recreated on a computer the same patterns the atoms in your > > brain here follow, then according to mechanism (what nearly every > > scientist will tell you) your consciousness would be recreated in that > > other universe. > > > > So here we have your "soul"--if you will call it that, surviving the > > death of the body, reincarnating into new bodies unassociated with the > > matter, and even leaving the universe to exist in some physically > > inaccessible realm. > > > > You may object that in practice we never re-create brains in such a > > way to enable reincarnation or allow the consciousness to survive the > > death of the body, but I disagree. The many worlds of quantum > > mechanics provides exactly the form of duplication necessary, and > > results in your consciousness travelling to now physically inaccesible > > corners of reality. Secondly, if a dying brain approaches zero > > information content, it results in there being a singular state (the > > consciousness of zero information). If this conscious state is > > identical in content to a newly forming brain in a womb, then this > > provides a mechanism of reincarnating into a new body. Then there is > > also the simulation hypothesis, where you are a descendent, or jupiter > > brain, or advanced alien playing sim human, and when you awaken from > > this game/dream/life you will find yourself in an "immaterial" > > (simulated/VR) realm where you are free to play "Sim Martian" or have > > any life of any mortal being you choose. > > > > Or, if this is too much, you might just say when your dead that's it. > > (but then you need to find an alternate theory of consciousness which > > prohibits these possibilities). > > > > Your terminology is more suggestive of supernatural concepts than > scientific ones, but I see what you're getting at. However, you seem to > be ignoring the vital role of matter and energy in implementing > information. There's no such thing as information without matter and/or > energy. There's no such thing as a mind without a brain. > > I do say that when you're dead, that's it. In the absence of some > intervention to record, transfer and restore the information in the > brain. I'm saying nothing about other universes or quantum physics, I'm > not qualified to, but in this universe, in the macroscopic world we're > all familiar with, it seems that minds are produced by the functioning > of brains. If we can reproduce the functions exactly, as you say, we > have reproduced the mind. That doesn't mean that if a brain is > destroyed, the mind isn't also destroyed. The things you are calling > 'reincarnation' (I really don't like using that term, for the reason > above) can indeed happen, but only if someone does something to achieve > it. Absent that, you're dead, Jim. > > Some people dispute this, quoting things like the holographic universe > theory, but again, I'm not qualified to comment on that, and I certainly > wouldn't want to rely on it. > What Jason is saying is, in my view, quite rational, but using words such as "soul" will make some people assume it's mumbo jumbo. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 13:31:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:31:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:05 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > No. People will (eventually) actively bring it up and harass you into > talking about it. > > SR Ballard > I am sorry that that has been your experience. It has not been mine. bill w > > On Apr 24, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:52 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Is there anywhere in the US where an atheist who simply ignored anything >>> to do with religion (which describes most atheists) would be noticed and >>> frowned upon? >>> >> >> Yes, mostly in the South. I stay away from those places. (Theoretically >> I might visit for work, but if so I would keep my interactions strictly to >> the work-related area - which would likely be protected by police biased >> toward those there to do the work.) >> >> Even in California, I have received death threats after I explained to an >> evangelist, who was trying to get me personally to convert, that I was an >> atheist, though this was some decades ago and atypical for the region. >> > > I imagine you would attract attention if you announced that you were an > atheist, but if you lived and worked in the South and just never mentioned > religion, or politely smiled and moved to the next topic when someone else > did, would you be OK? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 13:38:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:38:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: the best word to describe that sort of behavior is Doublethink. And that is not conducive to competence or even sanity." John K Clark Then how would you regard Isaac Newton? He was a spiritualist according to what I have read (not a lot),and out side of math he was wacky (to use the proper term). bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 5:23 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Huh? This is in response to what? bill w >> > > On April 21 I said this: > > "Speaking of the Thought Police and George Orwell, it would be entirely > appropriate for academics to have a strong bias against an Astronomy > professor who believed the universe was created on October 23 4004 BC, or a > professor of Evolutionary Biology who thought every word of the Noah Ark > story was literally true because, according to my Newspeak dictionary, the > best word to describe that sort of behavior is Doublethink. And that is not > conducive to competence or even sanity." > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 13:54:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:54:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Maybe you don't want to hear this, but there is a theory that the sight of cleavage is very similar to that of the bare buttocks, which is a very strong sexual signal. A well-built woman at the beach is going to get lots more looks if she is wearing a thong than if she is showing a lot of cleavage. (How abut it, oldtimers? Did you ever think these things would be posted?) It is sad about the nursing mothers. But we all know that some men are just jerks and there is no help for it. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:58 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Caviat: The scientific study of the human breast is very poor. > > Bras actually promote the sagging of breasts, according to Rouillon, who > wrote a paper on this after 15 years of study. Can?t find a link to the > paper itself (should be in French). Though the study has been challenged > because it relies on anecdotal reporting on the frequency of bra wearing. > > Many other factors are the main culprit of sagging breasts. > https://journals.lww.com/annalsplasticsurgery/Abstract/2010/05000/Breast_Ptosis__Causes_and_Cure.16.aspx > > Also, I see no reason why a breast should be seen as sexual. So perhaps > increased exposure would be good and people could stop harassing > breastfeeding mothers. > > SR Ballard > > On Apr 24, 2020, at 5:59 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Nah, you are not sorry. If all women went topless and braless the sagging > alone would turn you off,much less the overexposure (intended). So I am > saying that baring them all the time takes the mystery and the sexiness out > of them. No, I cannot explain why some men spend hours on the web drooling > over topless women, unless they have way more hormones than I do. > > bill w > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:40 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 24/04/2020 21:02, SR Ballard wrote: >> > I?m sorry but (1) women are not allowed to be topless in public in >> > most cities/states. >> > >> > See: https://gotopless.org/topless-laws >> > >> > And (2) Nudity is not legal in most places in the us >> >> Yeah, I'm sorry too. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 13:59:59 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:59:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 6:07 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > [...]everybody believes in amorphous grey blobs that don't do much of > anything. > Au contraire, I am an ablobbist. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 14:08:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:08:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> the best word to describe that sort of behavior is Doublethink. And >> that is not conducive to competence or even sanity. > > > Then how would you regard Isaac Newton? He was a spiritualist according > to what I have read (not a lot),and out side of math he was wacky (to use > the proper term). bill w > Newton was probably the most intelligent man who ever lived but he was also a very unpleasant human being, and there is a fine line between genius and insanity. It can't be denied that Newton devoted most of his brilliant mind to wacky religious ideas that nobody today thinks have any value. In his defence Newton was a man of his time and back then nearly everyone suffered from the same form of Doublethink, although even judged by the standards of his own era Newton was a son of a bitch. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Apr 25 14:09:45 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:09:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2973e1a5c44f6b8fdc2c4441b0d4d687.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Sat, April 25, 2020 09:54, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > It is sad about the nursing mothers. But we all know that some men are > just jerks and there is no help for it. In my experience, it is often *other women* who are the problem, but my experience was 50 years ago, so that may have changed. I sure hope so. Yes, some men are jerks. So are some women. And some folks are just plain hateful and mean. Regards, MB From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 14:29:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:29:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Supernatural to me is something not of this universe and its natural laws. No I would not know one if it bit me on the ear. I don't know that anyone can say that something cannot exist. We still know very little of nature. We will never know everything about nature. We don't have the brains or the sense organs for that. bill w On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:58 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently >> possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have >> >> This is a non sequitur and hence false. bill w >> > > How would you recognize something as supernatural if you saw it? How do > you define supernatural? > > If it's something that by definition can't exist, then it's simply > inconsistent to assert it exists. > If it's something that goes beyond the contemporary understanding of > nature, then the supernatural exists (unless the contemporary understanding > of nature is complete.) > > Though perhaps you have a better definition that avoids this. > > Jason > > >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 1:03 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On 24/04/2020 18:16, Jason Resch wrote: >>>> Various things. >>>> >>>> >>>> The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not >>>> figuring things out. >>>> >>> >>> I would say that depends on the religion. What about Bahai Faith >>> , Unitarian >>> Universalism , >>> the Universal Life Church >>> , and countless >>> others? >>> >>> >>>> Religions are about prescriptions and proscriptions. You have to do >>>> this, you can't do that. You must believe this, you can't question that. >>>> That's one problem, rather. Another one is that science is about *finding >>>> out*. Religion is about *believing*. >>>> >>> >>> In my view, both religion and science are about believing. You can say >>> religion is the set of beliefs one holds. Science is a tool by which we can >>> refine, deepen and correct errors in our beliefs. >>> >>> >>>> In science, evidence is king. In religion, evidence is the enemy. >>>> >>> >>> Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. Take these >>> words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith: >>> >>> "If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a >>> religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings >>> upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the >>> human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! >>> Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly >>> fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the >>> wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the >>> despairing slough of materialism." >>> >>> >>> According to Carl Sagan, >>> >>> "[Science] works. It is not perfect. It can be misused. It is only a >>> tool. But it is by far the best tool we have, self-correcting, ongoing, >>> applicable to everything. It has two rules. First: there are no sacred >>> truths; all assumptions must be critically examined; arguments from >>> authority are worthless. Second: whatever is inconsistent with the facts >>> must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Cosmos as it is and >>> not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. The obvious is sometimes >>> false; the unexpected is sometimes true." >>> >>> >>> Could we say that Carl Sagan's belief in science his "religion"? Why or >>> why not? What elements of belief are necessary for something to be labeled >>> a religion in your view? >>> >>> How does it square with what these scientists have said about the nature >>> of the relation between religion and science? >>> >>> "Science and religion are both still close to their beginnings, with no >>> ends in sight. Science and religion are both destined to grow and change in >>> the millennia that lie ahead of us, perhaps solving some old mysteries, >>> certainly discovering new mysteries of which we yet have no inkling." >>> -- Freeman Dyson >>> >>> "Science can now offer precisely the consolations in facing death that >>> religion once offered. Religion is now part of science." -- Frank Tippler >>> >>> "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." >>> -- Albert Einstein >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things. >>>> Fine. Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get. >>>> >>> >>> I don't need to. All of those examples of different concepts of God I >>> provided are core elements of existing religions. Creator, Truth, Reality, >>> and Consciousness, are the most common descriptions of God across most of >>> the major religions today. For example, just sticking to God as Truth, you >>> find: >>> >>> >>> *Judaism/Christianity:* ?Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, >>> O LORD, the God of truth.? -- Psalm 31:5 >>> The mathematician Hilda Phoebe Hudson said ?To all of us who hold the >>> Christian belief that God is truth, anything that is true is a fact about >>> God, and mathematics is a branch of theology.? >>> >>> *Islam*: "Al-?aqq (The Truth, The Real)" -- One of the 99 names of God >>> given in the Koran >>> The Muslim polymath Ibn al-Haytham described his theology saying, ?I >>> constantly sought knowledge and truth, and it became my belief that for >>> gaining access to the effulgence and closeness to God, there is no better >>> way than that of searching for truth and knowledge.? >>> >>> *Hinduism*: "Parabrahmana (The Supreme Absolute Truth)" -- One of the >>> 108 names of Krishna >>> ?I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of >>> the nondifferentiated Brahman mentioned in the Upanishads, being >>> differentiated from the infinity of glories of the mundane universe appears >>> as the indivisible, infinite, limitless, truth.? -- Hymn to the Absolute >>> Truth in the Brahma Sa?hit? >>> Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi said "If it is possible for the human tongue to >>> give the fullest description of God, I have come to the conclusion that God >>> is Truth.? >>> >>> *Sikhism*: ?There is one creator, whose name is truth" -- The Mul >>> Mantar (Root Mantra) >>> >>> >>> These religions account for about half the world's population. It shows >>> that when you get past the fables and mythology, and into the theology of >>> various religions, the concepts of God become much more nuanced. If you >>> want more examples, such as the idea of God as a Creator or God as >>> Consciousness, I can provide those as well. >>> >>> >>> >>>> All the things you mention might (or might not) be reasonable, but none >>>> of them are any reason to worship, obey a set of commandments, or otherwise >>>> bow down and accept unquestioningly what some priest or ancient book tells >>>> you. And *that* is what religion is about. >>>> >>> >>> That perhaps is what it is about to you and perhaps others. But it >>> doesn't have to be that way. There are sets of beliefs compatible with >>> science, and there are ways of believing that incorporate scientific >>> understanding to evolve one's beliefs over time. >>> >>> I agree with you that a static belief system is not as good as one that >>> can adapt in response to new evidence and understanding. I am not arguing >>> for a static belief system, only pointing out that there are frameworks of >>> belief (what you might call religious systems) that transcend the >>> definition of religion that you provide. >>> >>> Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a static >>> belief? How could it ever change? >>> >>> >>>> >>>> If you, or anyone else, wants to start a religion that's not about >>>> power and control, doesn't assert that magic (the supernatural) is real, >>>> >>> >>> To presume the supernatural is not real is to assume we currently >>> possesses a complete understanding of nature, which I am sure we don't have. >>> >>> >>>> that doesn't care who you have sex with or what you eat or wear, and >>>> doesn't tell you that you must believe certain things without question, >>>> great. Go ahead. I might even join it (of course, I'm already a member, on >>>> account of being an Omnitheist :D ). But I'd have to ask, what makes it a >>>> 'religion'? >>>> >>> >>> A religion, in my definition, is just a set of beliefs. Perhaps more >>> specifically, a set of basic or fundamental beliefs about reality. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> PS Please don't CC your replies to the list, to my email address. >>>> There's no need, and it's annoying. Thanks. >>>> >>> >>> My apologies. >>> >>> Jason >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 25 14:29:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 07:29:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00be01d61b0d$f624cce0$e26e66a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas Maybe you don't want to hear this, but there is a theory that the sight of cleavage is very similar to that of the bare buttocks, which is a very strong sexual signal. A well-built woman at the beach is going to get lots more looks if she is wearing a thong than if she is showing a lot of cleavage. (How abut it, oldtimers? Did you ever think these things would be posted?) It is sad about the nursing mothers. But we all know that some men are just jerks and there is no help for it. bill w Eh, it is the way evolution has wired us psychologically. We are attracted to fertility signals even as we go to great effort to prevent fertility. I am reminded of a friend in college who was a sociology major. She studied how the female test administrators would do the arm thing to create cleavage if the test taker was attractive. They might not have even been aware they were doing it. Of course they were aware they were pissed off when it was discovered, very aware of that, but it started a much-needed discussion on ethics in sociological experimentation. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 14:29:24 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:29:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:31 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *In my view, both religion and science are about believing.* > Yes but a scientist's core beliefs are much more compact than his religious counterpart, namely "some things work and some things don't, and the ones that work are worth spending more of your time on than the ones that don't, so learn the difference with observation and experiment". > *> Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. [...] Take > these words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith: "If religion > were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be > merely a tradition".* > Taoism and Buddhism in the form originally taught by Buda (before his followers turned him into a God after his death) are not really religions at all because they say nothing about God and make very modest claims about knowing the true nature of reality and leave that to science, rather they are states of mind that they think, perhaps with some justification, will make people happy. All true religions are stupid, but some are stupider than others and Baha'i is in the less stupid end of the spectrum, but no religion can harmonize a belief in a omnipotent benevolent God with Darwinian Evolution. At the other end of the spectrum well inside the very stupid area you have Christian young earth creationists who make it no secret that regardless of how much scientific evidence is brought against it in the future they will continue to believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis because it was written by God and thus is the ultimate truth. > *Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a static > belief? How could it ever change?* > Basically all science says is keep following an idea to see where it leads until it stops working and then abandon it and find a better idea; but you wouldn't want to abandon science as long as it's working, and if the scientific method stops working the only way you would know its not working is by following the scientific method, although you're going to have one hell of a time finding something better. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 14:30:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:30:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: there is a fine line between genius and insanity. John This is one of the myths about psychology that doesn't seem to want to die. Completely false. Perhaps because most people cannot understand geniuses they call them crazy. bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:11 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> the best word to describe that sort of behavior is Doublethink. And >>> that is not conducive to competence or even sanity. >> >> > > > Then how would you regard Isaac Newton? He was a spiritualist >> according to what I have read (not a lot),and out side of math he was wacky >> (to use the proper term). bill w >> > > Newton was probably the most intelligent man who ever lived but he was > also a very unpleasant human being, and there is a fine line between genius > and insanity. It can't be denied that Newton devoted most of his brilliant > mind to wacky religious ideas that nobody today thinks have any value. In > his defence Newton was a man of his time and back then nearly everyone > suffered from the same form of Doublethink, although even judged by the > standards of his own era Newton was a son of a bitch. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 14:34:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:34:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <2973e1a5c44f6b8fdc2c4441b0d4d687.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> <2973e1a5c44f6b8fdc2c4441b0d4d687.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: MB In my personal experience, if that is not superfluous, I have met very few women I would call jerks, and many men. Girls, women are fairly far apart growing up, the females with more social and emotional intelligence. I don't think most men ever catch up with the women. Men are likely not to see any reason for manners, muchless etiquette, and have to be trained by their girl friends and wives how to act in many situations. Do you agree, men? bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:20 AM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, April 25, 2020 09:54, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > It is sad about the nursing mothers. But we all know that some men are > > just jerks and there is no help for it. > > > In my experience, it is often *other women* who are the problem, but my > experience was 50 years ago, so that may have changed. I sure hope so. > > Yes, some men are jerks. So are some women. And some folks are just plain > hateful and mean. > > Regards, > MB > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 15:13:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:13:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] So much for it being no worse than the ordinary flu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yesterday, a very long time ago in the world of viruses, I said: "I don't know that new cases have peaked. Yesterday April 23 31,900 more Americans got sick from Covid-19, on April 19 only 26,183 did, you'd have to go back to April 17 to find a larger number and even then it was only slightly larger." And today one day later we know for sure that new cases have NOT peaked. On Friday April 24 38,958 more Americans got sick from Covid-19, and that is the largest number ever by a considerable margin. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 25 15:17:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:17:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> <2973e1a5c44f6b8fdc2c4441b0d4d687.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <003801d61b14$b11a8750$134f95f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas MB >?In my personal experience, if that is not superfluous, I have met very few women I would call jerks, and many men. Girls, women are fairly far apart growing up, the females with more social and emotional intelligence. I don't think most men ever catch up with the women. Men are likely not to see any reason for manners, muchless etiquette, and have to be trained by their girl friends and wives how to act in many situations. Do you agree, men? bill w BillW, can you see any differences in the way guys act when it is only guys present, vs how they act when there is mixed company? Is it not reasonable to extrapolate that women have some kind of analogous difference in the way they carry on when it is only women present? The problem is that there is no completely ethical way to find out. If a hidden camera/audio recorder were placed and the single-gender meeting took place where none of the participants knew the interaction was being recorded, it would be unethical to make the recording or view it once it was recorded. This is the sociologists? dilemma: much or nearly all their data must be collected in such a way that it doesn?t impact the test subjects. The best way to do that is to be deceptive. We wouldn?t know if women were jerks when they are with only women, but I have heard women bully each other in a way analogous to but not exactly like the way men do. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Apr 25 15:31:21 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 16:31:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25/04/2020 11:35, Jason Resch wrote: > The evidence and theories are already published and out there Oh, dear. Poe's law strikes again. OK, then. You seem to be vacillating between the normal concept of a mind and the normal concept of a soul. I think you mean 'mind' when you say 'soul', but then you invite accusations of supernatural thinking by saying things like "your consciousness is eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, resurrect, and is in a manner one with all other consciousnesses". Of course, answering "what is the soul, exactly?" with "Consciousness" is no answer at all. You might as well have said "Flargness" or "Domaghen" or any other word without a definition. I suppose the next step is to ask "So what, exactly, is Consciousness?". But don't worry if you can't answer that. Nobody else can either. I hope you don't really mean what you say with "If you believe in mathematical platonism, some minds can exist as the mathematical equivalent of a Boltzmann brain". Because that means that reality bends to belief. I'm pretty certain that's not the case. How could you resolve the fact that some people do believe in mathematical platonism and some don't? It's irrelevant, anyway, because as I've already mentioned, information isn't something independent of matter and energy, so minds can only exist as physical incarnations, such as functioning brains. 'You probably are thinking "I have a consciousness, but I don't have a soul"' ?Nope I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking I am a mind (not "I have a mind", because that would raise the question "What am I, that has a mind?"). A fragile, mortal, singular, emergent, and soon-to-be permanently-snuffed-out (unless someone does something to prevent that) mind. I don't have a workable definition of 'consciousness' and as far as I'm aware a 'soul' is just a made-up concept used by religious organisations to scare their congregations into obeying the rules. Unless its your special definition of 'soul', which means 'mind'. Except when it doesn't. Unless it means 'Flargness' as you claim (or some such term), which doesn't have a definition. And around and around we frustratingly and pointlessly go. Remind you of anything? (Hint: it starts with 'R' and ends with 'eligion'). -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 15:38:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:38:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 11:01 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> there is a fine line between genius and insanity. John > > > *> This is one of the myths about psychology that doesn't seem to want to > die. Completely false. Perhaps because most people cannot understand > geniuses they call them crazy. bill w* > It's no myth in Newton's case, he suffered a complete mental breakdown in 1692, he had hallucinations, had fits of inappropriate rage against his few friends and was completely non-functional for 18 months. He eventually got better but he never stopped being very odd and he never stopped being very unpleasant. The Madness of Sir Isaac Newton John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Apr 25 15:38:37 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:38:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> <2973e1a5c44f6b8fdc2c4441b0d4d687.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <6472db2de3687d6a15057e930053e369.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> I agree that "jerk" seems to refer to men. What's the female version, "jerkette"? :D Perhaps the women I'm remembering might better be called "b*tches*. They were a problem for nursing mothers. Playing a Modesty card or a That's-Sexual card which they didn't half follow themselves, and acting like nursing a baby was a disgusting display - if not just plain disgusting. Even covered with a shawl was not enough to dodge disapproving looks and sometimes comments from that kind of woman. Men found it sorta amusing that they always thought of breasts as sexual, but knew that really nursing was what breasts were for. They were laughing a bit at themselves, in a friendly amused way. The ones who spoke to me seemed to approve, not only of breastfeeding, but of my not being ashamed to do so outside the privacy of my home. Oh the other hand, I did meet one fellow who wouldn't let his wife nurse their baby while I was there for a visit. She either had to leave the room or I had to leave the house. Struck me as very strange, sorta sick. Regards, MB On Sat, April 25, 2020 10:34, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > MB > > In my personal experience, if that is not superfluous, I have met very few > women I would call jerks, and many men. Girls, women are fairly far apart > growing up, the females with more social and emotional intelligence. I > don't think most men ever catch up with the women. Men are likely not to > see any reason for manners, muchless etiquette, and have to be trained by > their girl friends and wives how to act in many situations. Do you agree, > men? > > bill w > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:20 AM MB via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, April 25, 2020 09:54, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > It is sad about the nursing mothers. But we all know that some men >> are >> > just jerks and there is no help for it. >> >> >> In my experience, it is often *other women* who are the problem, but my >> experience was 50 years ago, so that may have changed. I sure hope so. >> >> Yes, some men are jerks. So are some women. And some folks are just >> plain >> hateful and mean. >> >> Regards, >> MB >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 15:41:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:41:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At the other end of the spectrum well inside the very stupid area you have Christian young earth creationists who make it no secret that regardless of how much scientific evidence is brought against it in the future they will continue to believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis because it was written by God and thus is the ultimate truth. John In my estimation, members of our group are in the top 1%, 5%, or something and would not be described as 'needy' by anyone in their right mind. But see what John wrote: many people are desperate for an authority to follow, no matter what. Very needy people that we cannot relate to very much, if at all. So I ask: is religion playing a good role in their lives, or a bad one? Bad might mean that they deny reality in other areas of their lives, are way too credulous ($ to Nigeria maybe?), and so on. Opiates of the people - necessary? bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:46 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:31 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *In my view, both religion and science are about believing.* >> > > Yes but a scientist's core beliefs are much more compact than his > religious counterpart, namely "some things work and some things don't, and > the ones that work are worth spending more of your time on than the ones > that don't, so learn the difference with observation and experiment". > > >> *> Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. [...] Take >> these words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith: "If religion >> were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be >> merely a tradition".* >> > > Taoism and Buddhism in the form originally taught by Buda (before his > followers turned him into a God after his death) are not really religions > at all because they say nothing about God and make very modest claims about > knowing the true nature of reality and leave that to science, rather they > are states of mind that they think, perhaps with some justification, will > make people happy. All true religions are stupid, but some are stupider > than others and Baha'i is in the less stupid end of the spectrum, but no > religion can harmonize a belief in a omnipotent benevolent God with > Darwinian Evolution. > > At the other end of the spectrum well inside the very stupid area you have > Christian young earth creationists who make it no secret that regardless > of how much scientific evidence is brought against it in the future they > will continue to believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis because > it was written by God and thus is the ultimate truth. > > > *Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a static >> belief? How could it ever change?* >> > > Basically all science says is keep following an idea to see where it leads > until it stops working and then abandon it and find a better idea; but you > wouldn't want to abandon science as long as it's working, and if the > scientific method stops working the only way you would know its not working > is by following the scientific method, although you're going to have one > hell of a time finding something better. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 15:44:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:44:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <003801d61b14$b11a8750$134f95f0$@rainier66.com> References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> <2973e1a5c44f6b8fdc2c4441b0d4d687.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <003801d61b14$b11a8750$134f95f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, a female student answered your question some time aga. I said that I wanted to be a fly on the wall when girls got together in the dorm and talked about boys or God, or whatever. She said "No, you don't." So I said "You mean that girls can be just as nasty, mean, crude, etc. as guys?" She said Yes. Dashed my opinion of women in a way. But them I have always been rather naive' in some ways. bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas > > > > MB > > > > >?In my personal experience, if that is not superfluous, I have met very > few women I would call jerks, and many men. Girls, women are fairly far > apart growing up, the females with more social and emotional intelligence. > I don't think most men ever catch up with the women. Men are likely not to > see any reason for manners, muchless etiquette, and have to be trained by > their girl friends and wives how to act in many situations. Do you agree, > men? > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > BillW, can you see any differences in the way guys act when it is only > guys present, vs how they act when there is mixed company? > > > > Is it not reasonable to extrapolate that women have some kind of analogous > difference in the way they carry on when it is only women present? > > > > The problem is that there is no completely ethical way to find out. If a > hidden camera/audio recorder were placed and the single-gender meeting took > place where none of the participants knew the interaction was being > recorded, it would be unethical to make the recording or view it once it > was recorded. > > > > This is the sociologists? dilemma: much or nearly all their data must be > collected in such a way that it doesn?t impact the test subjects. The best > way to do that is to be deceptive. > > > > We wouldn?t know if women were jerks when they are with only women, but I > have heard women bully each other in a way analogous to but not exactly > like the way men do. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 15:47:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:47:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John, my point is that insanity (wrong word, really) and genius have no causal connection. Newton is just an example of both occurring in one person - no cause running either way. bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:40 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 11:01 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> there is a fine line between genius and insanity. John >> >> >> *> This is one of the myths about psychology that doesn't seem to want to >> die. Completely false. Perhaps because most people cannot understand >> geniuses they call them crazy. bill w* >> > > It's no myth in Newton's case, he suffered a complete mental breakdown in > 1692, he had hallucinations, had fits of inappropriate rage against his few > friends and was completely non-functional for 18 months. He eventually got > better but he never stopped being very odd and he never stopped being very > unpleasant. > > The Madness of Sir Isaac Newton > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 15:52:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:52:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <6472db2de3687d6a15057e930053e369.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> <2973e1a5c44f6b8fdc2c4441b0d4d687.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <6472db2de3687d6a15057e930053e369.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: MB, I taught a course in Human Sexuality and you likely have no idea just how strange men can be. All of the sexual fetishes and paraphilias are found in men; almost never in women, who might play along with men's games, but might not initiate them. (read Bonk - wonderful book on sex by a woman, Mary Roach, who has written other books I thoroughly enjoyed) "Jerk" of course refers to masturbation and so I think it's a bit odd to call a woman that. Clueless blockhead would fit, but then I simply have not met any women who I would call that. I suppose I am still thinking of men because of their social ineptitude, which I shared for much of my early life. bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:47 AM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I agree that "jerk" seems to refer to men. What's the female version, > "jerkette"? :D > > Perhaps the women I'm remembering might better be called "b*tches*. They > were a problem for nursing mothers. Playing a Modesty card or a > That's-Sexual card which they didn't half follow themselves, and acting > like nursing a baby was a disgusting display - if not just plain > disgusting. Even covered with a shawl was not enough to dodge > disapproving looks and sometimes comments from that kind of woman. > > Men found it sorta amusing that they always thought of breasts as sexual, > but knew that really nursing was what breasts were for. They were > laughing a bit at themselves, in a friendly amused way. The ones who > spoke to me seemed to approve, not only of breastfeeding, but of my not > being ashamed to do so outside the privacy of my home. > > Oh the other hand, I did meet one fellow who wouldn't let his wife nurse > their baby while I was there for a visit. She either had to leave the > room or I had to leave the house. Struck me as very strange, sorta sick. > > Regards, > MB > > > > On Sat, April 25, 2020 10:34, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > MB > > > > In my personal experience, if that is not superfluous, I have met very > few > > women I would call jerks, and many men. Girls, women are fairly far > apart > > growing up, the females with more social and emotional intelligence. I > > don't think most men ever catch up with the women. Men are likely not to > > see any reason for manners, muchless etiquette, and have to be trained by > > their girl friends and wives how to act in many situations. Do you > agree, > > men? > > > > bill w > > > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:20 AM MB via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On Sat, April 25, 2020 09:54, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > >> wrote: > >> > It is sad about the nursing mothers. But we all know that some men > >> are > >> > just jerks and there is no help for it. > >> > >> > >> In my experience, it is often *other women* who are the problem, but my > >> experience was 50 years ago, so that may have changed. I sure hope so. > >> > >> Yes, some men are jerks. So are some women. And some folks are just > >> plain > >> hateful and mean. > >> > >> Regards, > >> MB > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 15:59:59 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:59:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 6:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:05 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> No. People will (eventually) actively bring it up and harass you into >> talking about it. >> >> SR Ballard >> > > I am sorry that that has been your experience. It has not been mine. > bill w > You are safe until suddenly you are not. That is how this goes. If you avoid carrying in the bad areas, though, you may avoid those who press the issue. That doesn't mean they aren't there, just that you never have to deal with them. >> On Apr 24, 2020, at 3:02 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 05:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:52 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Is there anywhere in the US where an atheist who simply ignored >>>> anything to do with religion (which describes most atheists) would be >>>> noticed and frowned upon? >>>> >>> >>> Yes, mostly in the South. I stay away from those places. >>> (Theoretically I might visit for work, but if so I would keep my >>> interactions strictly to the work-related area - which would likely be >>> protected by police biased toward those there to do the work.) >>> >>> Even in California, I have received death threats after I explained to >>> an evangelist, who was trying to get me personally to convert, that I was >>> an atheist, though this was some decades ago and atypical for the region. >>> >> >> I imagine you would attract attention if you announced that you were an >> atheist, but if you lived and worked in the South and just never mentioned >> religion, or politely smiled and moved to the next topic when someone else >> did, would you be OK? >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 25 16:11:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:11:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008601d61b1c$23c81e00$6b585a00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?So I ask: is religion playing a good role in their lives, or a bad one? Perhaps I am the wrong one to ask, for I know personally people who have been changed for the better by religion. Hey it works for them, even doublethink. I am not capable of it myself, but if it works for them, who the hell am I to judge? Thinking right isn?t everything, it isn?t the only thing that matters. Another way to say it: if you needed surgery who would you rather have, Dr. Leonard Bailey, or? the right-thinking you know who? So would I. >?Bad might mean that they deny reality in other areas of their lives, are way too credulous ($ to Nigeria maybe?), and so on. It has long been a fantasy of mine if I made a buttload, a really fun gag I would play: get an actual literal Nigerian prince, put up the money behind him, say 2.47 million US dollars, and see how long it takes him to give it away to an American person he heard was a worthy sort, reliable, of good character, that sorta thing. The prince could send one email a day, worded in his own perfectly authentic classic Nigerian prince style. He would get a commission if he managed to give away the money. He has to get the gullible person to hand over their bank account number, at which time the Prince would deposit the actual literal money into that account, exactly as he said he would. Then we watch what the gullible victim does once he or she sees all that money show up in the account. Oh that would be a hoot. I suspect that prince would go thru a lot of people before he managed to get anyone who would believe. Opiates of the people - necessary? bill w Whelp. Billw, I would hafta conclude that opiates really are necessary for some people. But hey I don?t know everything there is to know. Do you? Does anyone here know everything there is to know? Neither do I. But I am learning. I will let ya know when I know everything. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 16:16:35 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:16:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 8:59 AM Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 6:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:05 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> No. People will (eventually) actively bring it up and harass you into >>> talking about it. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >> >> I am sorry that that has been your experience. It has not been mine. >> bill w >> > > You are safe until suddenly you are not. That is how this goes. If you > avoid carrying in the bad areas, though, you may avoid those who press the > issue. That doesn't mean they aren't there, just that you never have to > deal with them. > Tarrying, not carrying. (Mobile autocorrect.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 25 16:22:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:22:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> <2973e1a5c44f6b8fdc2c4441b0d4d687.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <003801d61b14$b11a8750$134f95f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009a01d61b1d$c52f20d0$4f8d6270$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas Spike, a female student answered your question some time aga. I said that I wanted to be a fly on the wall when girls got together in the dorm and talked about boys or God, or whatever. She said "No, you don't." So I said "You mean that girls can be just as nasty, mean, crude, etc. as guys?" She said Yes. Dashed my opinion of women in a way. But them I have always been rather naive' in some ways. bill w Well sure, but again please: there is no ethical way to be that fly on the wall. If a secret recording is made, even just audio, then listening to that is as unethical as viewing the secret hidden camera video made in a hotel or locker room. In some ways, the secret audio is worse than the locker room video, for one is mere nudity, and we all know exactly what that looks like (which is not to say we ever get tired of it (I don?t.)) But a private discussion is secret, and I would not be a fly on the wall. If I woke up and discovered I was a fly on the wall, I would buzz around the faces of the participants until she swatted my ass. I would deserve it. Your student who said ?No, you don?t? was right. I choose to keep my ignorance and embrace my illusions about the fairer sex. There really are things I don?t want to know and some things I would unknow if that could be made possible. My sociologist friend?s project from college was one of the most educational experiences I had there. spike On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas MB >?In my personal experience, if that is not superfluous, I have met very few women I would call jerks, and many men. Girls, women are fairly far apart growing up, the females with more social and emotional intelligence. I don't think most men ever catch up with the women. Men are likely not to see any reason for manners, muchless etiquette, and have to be trained by their girl friends and wives how to act in many situations. Do you agree, men? bill w BillW, can you see any differences in the way guys act when it is only guys present, vs how they act when there is mixed company? Is it not reasonable to extrapolate that women have some kind of analogous difference in the way they carry on when it is only women present? The problem is that there is no completely ethical way to find out. If a hidden camera/audio recorder were placed and the single-gender meeting took place where none of the participants knew the interaction was being recorded, it would be unethical to make the recording or view it once it was recorded. This is the sociologists? dilemma: much or nearly all their data must be collected in such a way that it doesn?t impact the test subjects. The best way to do that is to be deceptive. We wouldn?t know if women were jerks when they are with only women, but I have heard women bully each other in a way analogous to but not exactly like the way men do. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 16:24:34 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:24:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1C530CC4-6D20-44D8-AFB7-F34B7AC48A6C@gmail.com> > It is sad about the nursing mothers. But we all know that some men are just jerks and there is no help for it. > > bill w Men rarely harass breastfeeding mothers, usually other women are doing the harassing. SR Ballard > On Apr 25, 2020, at 8:54 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Maybe you don't want to hear this, but there is a theory that the sight of cleavage is very similar to that of the bare buttocks, which is a very strong sexual signal. A well-built woman at the beach is going to get lots more looks if she is wearing a thong than if she is showing a lot of cleavage. (How abut it, oldtimers? Did you ever think these things would be posted?) > > >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:58 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Caviat: The scientific study of the human breast is very poor. >> >> Bras actually promote the sagging of breasts, according to Rouillon, who wrote a paper on this after 15 years of study. Can?t find a link to the paper itself (should be in French). Though the study has been challenged because it relies on anecdotal reporting on the frequency of bra wearing. >> >> Many other factors are the main culprit of sagging breasts. https://journals.lww.com/annalsplasticsurgery/Abstract/2010/05000/Breast_Ptosis__Causes_and_Cure.16.aspx >> >> Also, I see no reason why a breast should be seen as sexual. So perhaps increased exposure would be good and people could stop harassing breastfeeding mothers. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Apr 24, 2020, at 5:59 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> Nah, you are not sorry. If all women went topless and braless the sagging alone would turn you off,much less the overexposure (intended). So I am saying that baring them all the time takes the mystery and the sexiness out of them. No, I cannot explain why some men spend hours on the web drooling over topless women, unless they have way more hormones than I do. >>> >>> bill w >>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:40 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> On 24/04/2020 21:02, SR Ballard wrote: >>>> > I?m sorry but (1) women are not allowed to be topless in public in >>>> > most cities/states. >>>> > >>>> > See: https://gotopless.org/topless-laws >>>> > >>>> > And (2) Nudity is not legal in most places in the us >>>> >>>> Yeah, I'm sorry too. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ben Zaiboc >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 16:44:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:44:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, right, but 'carrying' in the bad areas is a rather good idea - something to shoot back with. bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 11:38 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 8:59 AM Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 6:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:05 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> No. People will (eventually) actively bring it up and harass you into >>>> talking about it. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>> >>> I am sorry that that has been your experience. It has not been mine. >>> bill w >>> >> >> You are safe until suddenly you are not. That is how this goes. If you >> avoid carrying in the bad areas, though, you may avoid those who press the >> issue. That doesn't mean they aren't there, just that you never have to >> deal with them. >> > > Tarrying, not carrying. (Mobile autocorrect.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 16:52:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:52:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <009a01d61b1d$c52f20d0$4f8d6270$@rainier66.com> References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> <2973e1a5c44f6b8fdc2c4441b0d4d687.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <003801d61b14$b11a8750$134f95f0$@rainier66.com> <009a01d61b1d$c52f20d0$4f8d6270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I have found that the best way to treat women is to treat them like ladies. If they are not ladies, I will find out sooner or later. In fact, I think that treating girls like women, and women like ladies actually helps girls to become ladies, if they can get over the teenage embarrassment. bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 11:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas > > > > Spike, a female student answered your question some time aga. I said that > I wanted to be a fly on the wall when girls got together in the dorm and > talked about boys or God, or whatever. > > > > She said "No, you don't." So I said "You mean that girls can be just as > nasty, mean, crude, etc. as guys?" She said Yes. Dashed my opinion of > women in a way. But them I have always been rather naive' in some ways. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Well sure, but again please: there is no ethical way to be that fly on the > wall. If a secret recording is made, even just audio, then listening to > that is as unethical as viewing the secret hidden camera video made in a > hotel or locker room. In some ways, the secret audio is worse than the > locker room video, for one is mere nudity, and we all know exactly what > that looks like (which is not to say we ever get tired of it (I don?t.)) > But a private discussion is secret, and I would not be a fly on the wall. > If I woke up and discovered I was a fly on the wall, I would buzz around > the faces of the participants until she swatted my ass. I would deserve it. > > > > Your student who said ?No, you don?t? was right. I choose to keep my > ignorance and embrace my illusions about the fairer sex. There really are > things I don?t want to know and some things I would unknow if that could be > made possible. > > > > My sociologist friend?s project from college was one of the most > educational experiences I had there. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas > > > > MB > > > > >?In my personal experience, if that is not superfluous, I have met very > few women I would call jerks, and many men. Girls, women are fairly far > apart growing up, the females with more social and emotional intelligence. > I don't think most men ever catch up with the women. Men are likely not to > see any reason for manners, muchless etiquette, and have to be trained by > their girl friends and wives how to act in many situations. Do you agree, > men? > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > BillW, can you see any differences in the way guys act when it is only > guys present, vs how they act when there is mixed company? > > > > Is it not reasonable to extrapolate that women have some kind of analogous > difference in the way they carry on when it is only women present? > > > > The problem is that there is no completely ethical way to find out. If a > hidden camera/audio recorder were placed and the single-gender meeting took > place where none of the participants knew the interaction was being > recorded, it would be unethical to make the recording or view it once it > was recorded. > > > > This is the sociologists? dilemma: much or nearly all their data must be > collected in such a way that it doesn?t impact the test subjects. The best > way to do that is to be deceptive. > > > > We wouldn?t know if women were jerks when they are with only women, but I > have heard women bully each other in a way analogous to but not exactly > like the way men do. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Apr 25 16:54:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:54:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c601d61b22$389623d0$a9c26b70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 8:59 AM Adrian Tymes > wrote: You are safe until suddenly you are not. That is how this goes. If you avoid carrying in the bad areas, though, you may avoid those who press the issue. That doesn't mean they aren't there, just that you never have to deal with them. Tarrying, not carrying. (Mobile autocorrect.) {8^D I wondered what you meant there Adrian. Note to our non-US friends: in the states, the term ?carrying? means to have a concealed firearm on one?s person. Auto-correct assigned a completely different meaning to Adrian?s correctly-typed original comment. I took it as ?don?t go into bad areas where it isn?t safe to avoid carrying.? {8^D That?s how I do it anyway: if it isn?t safe to be there while not carrying, don?t be there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 16:54:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 12:54:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 12:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John, my point is that insanity (wrong word, really) and genius have no > causal connection. Newton is just an example of both occurring in one > person - no cause running either way. bill w > Going insane seems to be a occupational hazard for mathematicians, especially for great mathematicians; Georg Cantor, Kurt Godel, John Nash, Alexander Grothendieck, Grigori Perelman all went nuts. I don't know if Paul Erd?s was insane but he was certainly very very odd. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Apr 25 17:06:06 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:06:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] e: texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <1C530CC4-6D20-44D8-AFB7-F34B7AC48A6C@gmail.com> References: <669E453F-F575-4E15-98C7-CB76F872ACAE@gmail.com> <1C530CC4-6D20-44D8-AFB7-F34B7AC48A6C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6a1447fe37b58ff43b8e365e69bb38ea.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Sat, April 25, 2020 12:24, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > Men rarely harass breastfeeding mothers, usually other women are doing the > harassing. > Thanks, SR, that's what I was trying to say in a rather longer roundabout manner. Regards, MB From atymes at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 17:23:19 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:23:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] texas county judge demands residents wear bananas In-Reply-To: <00c601d61b22$389623d0$a9c26b70$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d61b22$389623d0$a9c26b70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That?s how I do it anyway: if it isn?t safe to be there while not > carrying, don?t be there. > Honestly, I wouldn't even go there if I was carrying. My own gun might get revenge, but it doesn't stop them from shooting first. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 17:49:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 12:49:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What sort of mental illnesses did these people have - if you know? We all know there is a correlation between IQ and manic-depression. That diagnosis might not strike people as being crazy, like a diagnosis of schizophrenia and its hallucinations and delusions would, although a full blown manic episode would do it.. bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 12:22 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 12:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > John, my point is that insanity (wrong word, really) and genius have no >> causal connection. Newton is just an example of both occurring in one >> person - no cause running either way. bill w >> > > Going insane seems to be a occupational hazard for mathematicians, > especially for great mathematicians; Georg Cantor, Kurt Godel, John Nash, > Alexander Grothendieck, Grigori Perelman all went nuts. I don't know if > Paul Erd?s was insane but he was certainly very very odd. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 18:01:07 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 14:01:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "Newton only believed in God because it was in vogue", as I predicted, someone was bound to make that shitty argument here. Newton would be the same today. Give the man some fucking credit -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 18:50:22 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:50:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A fly on the wall Message-ID: Spike writes that he would not be a fly on the wall listening to the fems gossip. Here is a bit about long-delayed gossip from writing up the adventures I had around 1970. Dress code After I graduated with a BSEE, I kept working (mostly programming) for Heinrich GeoExplorlation for a few months. They then hit a downturn in the mineral exploration business and I had to find another job. Wound up at Burr-Brown working as an analog design engineer under Howard Handler--who had been my advisor at the U of Arizona. It was an interesting job and Howard was a decent boss. While there I made my first invention, a 4 quadrant log-antilog multiplier. It was in general a reasonable place to work and I had a few interesting adventures. But this is about how I reacted to the dress code. It was not very onerous, but at Heinrich, it had been comfortable jeans all the time. So I bought four light blue shirts and three pairs of grey pants. Figured I would go for a uniform look long as I had to meet some dress code. For rare cases where we had to be more formal, I kept a clip-on tie in a desk drawer. I wore this outfit every day of the two years I worked there. Toward the end of that time, the shirts developed a subtle degree of distinctiveness due to different ink stains on the pockets. I never had any of the other engineers or production people make a comment. Not sure any of them noticed. I doubt it; engineers are not much into fashion. But a couple of years after I left, one of the engineers I had known there visited Analog Precision, the company I set up after being fired from Arizona Gear. He had married one of the Burr-Brown secretaries and she was with him. I don?t remember exactly how the subject came up. The engineer?s wife went into considerable detail about the gossip my clothing inspired among the secretaries. (Talk about an out-of-date word, ?secretaries?!) Anyway, my effort was not wasted; according to her this guy who had only one set of clothes was a constant subject of gossip. I explained that I had bought four identical shirts and three identical sets of pants to give the impression I had only one set of clothes. She thought it was very funny. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 18:59:30 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:59:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 7:04 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 6:07 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> [...]everybody believes in amorphous grey blobs that don't do much of >> anything. >> > > Au contraire, I am an ablobbist. > Some of my friends have a joke-quasi-religion about blobs, and asked me to send https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX2tDqiuLGc in response to this. Granted, those are yellow blobs, not grey. ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 19:25:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:25:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 1:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What sort of mental illnesses did these people have - if you know? We > all know there is a correlation between IQ and manic-depression. That > diagnosis might not strike people as being crazy, like a diagnosis of > schizophrenia and its hallucinations and delusions would, although a full > blown manic episode would do it. > I don't know the technical term for the illness but John Nash went so crazy they made a very good movie about him, "A Beautiful Mind". Alexander Grothendieck and Grigori Perelman suddenly renounce mathematics at the very height of their productivity and became hermits refusing to talk to anybody for decades; Grothendieck lived on nothing but dandelion soup and Perelman was offered the Fields Medal, the mathematical equivalent to the Nobel Prize, but he refused it and for some weird reason thought it a insult, he even refused a million dollars The Clay Mathematical Institute wanted to give him as a sign of appreciation for proving the Poincar? conjecture. Georg Cantor suffered from chronic depression all his life and it was so bad he had to be hospitalized for it many times, and the eccentricities of Paul Erd?s were legendary although he seems like a nice guy. As for Godel, he was the greatest logician of all time but he had some very illogical ideas. Godel was always a very odd man and he got odder as he got older especially after his best friend, Albert Einstein, died in 1955 . He sealed his windows shut because he thought somebody would try to murder hi m with poison gas. He wore a heavy woolen coat on the hottest day of summer , Godel believed in ghosts and for unknown reasons he insisted on putting lots of cheap plastic flamingos on his front lawn. Godel disliked talking to people but if he had to he insisted they do it on the telephone even if they were just a few feet away. Godel ended up starving himself to death, he refused to eat because he thought unnamed sinister forces were trying to poison him. The great logician weighed 65 pounds when he died in 1978 from, according to the official death certificate, " lack of food brought on by paranoia " . John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 20:12:51 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:12:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 10:32 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 25/04/2020 11:35, Jason Resch wrote: > > The evidence and theories are already published and out there > > Oh, dear. Poe's law strikes again. > > OK, then. > > You seem to be vacillating between the normal concept of a mind and the > normal concept of a soul. > I'm not vacillating between the two, rather I intend to show that the mind goes much further than is normally conceived. The mind possesses many of the properties normally associated with the "normal concept of the soul". > I think you mean 'mind' when you say 'soul', but then you invite > accusations of supernatural thinking by saying things like "your > consciousness is eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, > resurrect, and is in a manner one with all other consciousnesses". > It may sound supernatural, but those are just natural consequences of standard scientific theories. > Of course, answering "what is the soul, exactly?" with "Consciousness" > is no answer at all. You might as well have said "Flargness" or > "Domaghen" or any other word without a definition. I suppose the next > step is to ask "So what, exactly, is Consciousness?". But don't worry if > you can't answer that. Nobody else can either. > I provided a definition and example in my previous email. > I hope you don't really mean what you say with "If you believe in > mathematical platonism, some minds can exist as the mathematical > equivalent of a Boltzmann brain". Because that means that reality bends > to belief. I'm pretty certain that's not the case. How could you resolve > the fact that some people do believe in mathematical platonism and some > don't? > I mean mathematical platonism implies mathematical Boltzmann brains. Platonism is the default theory among most mathematicians. You don't need to believe in it, but if the theory is true, then mathematical Boltzmann brains exist. Actually then all self consistent mathematical objects exist: all minds and universes and program executions would exist. > It's irrelevant, anyway, because as I've already mentioned, information > isn't something independent of matter and energy, so minds can only > exist as physical incarnations, such as functioning brains. > What about a mathematical Boltzmann brain? Is that not independent if matter and energy? > 'You probably are thinking "I have a consciousness, but I don't have a > soul"' > Nope I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking I am a mind (not "I have a > mind", because that would raise the question "What am I, that has a > mind?"). A fragile, mortal, singular, emergent, and soon-to-be > permanently-snuffed-out (unless someone does something to prevent that) > mind. I don't have a workable definition of 'consciousness' and as far > as I'm aware a 'soul' is just a made-up concept used by religious > organisations to scare their congregations into obeying the rules. > Unless its your special definition of 'soul', which means 'mind'. Except > when it doesn't. Unless it means 'Flargness' as you claim (or some such > term), which doesn't have a definition. And around and around we > frustratingly and pointlessly go. Remind you of anything? (Hint: it > starts with 'R' and ends with 'eligion'). > If you don't attempt to or want to understand my points then you're right, this is going to be frustrating and pointless for the both of us. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 20:21:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:21:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: >From historian John M. Barry: "When you mix politics and science, you get politics." bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 20:52:59 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:52:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul (was: Re: No gods, no meaning?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Giulio, Your book sounds fascinating! I just ordered a copy and can't wait to read it. Best, Jason On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 3:03 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Jason is right, scientific theories of the soul are already published > and out there. Not by lesser scientists, but by top Nobel-level > scientists. I outline some of these theories in my book: > https://turingchurch.net/tales-of-the-turing-church-23f4aa4050c6 > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:23 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >> On 24/04/2020 23:57, Jason Resch wrote: > >> > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul > >> > >> Oh, wow! > >> > >> You realise how revolutionary this is? > >> > >> Before you write your book, I think you should publish your scientific > >> evidence for the existence of a soul. > >> > > > > The evidence and theories are already published and out there. These > theories aren't my theories, I only demonstrate what these theories imply > for the properties of the soul (consciousness). > > > > > >> > >> I always thought it was just a fantasy, some non-falsifiable made-up > >> idea to make it easier to control people. > > > > > > You're conscious aren't you? > > > > You probably are thinking "I have a consciousness, but I don't have a > soul" > > > > Consider if my book shows how well-established scientific theories > (special relativity, quantum mechanics, the computational theory of mind, > mathematical platonism, etc.) -- all standard theories by scientists in > those domains--inevitably lead to the conclusion that your consciousness is > eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, resurrect, and is in a > manner one with all other consciousnesses. > > > > If your consciousness indeed possesses these properties, would it not be > more apt to call it a soul? > > > >> > >> Be prepared for lots of questions. Personally, I'm interested to know: > >> > >> What is it, exactly? > > > > > > Consciousness. > > > >> > >> Does your soul remember your past? > > > > > > There are situations in which you will find yourself in a position where > you have consolidated memories from many experienced lives. For instance, > awaking as a Jupiter brain that just spent the last hour living the lives > of every being on a particular planet it chose to simulate. > > > > To put this in a more human-relatable example, do you remember playing > as Link from Zelda, and Mario from Super Mario Brothers? Now consider the > perspective of a billion year old uploaded being who has lived a million > lifetimes in fully immersive VR (and uses memory blockers while in game) > and wakes up after dying in the game. > > > >> How does it relate to the mind and the brain? > > > > > > Consciousness is a result of the computation performed by the brain or > any other computational substrate. If you believe in mathematical > platonism, some minds can exist as the mathematical equivalent of a > Boltzmann brain, i.e. as a Turing machine with unlimited computational > resources where that Turing machine exists purely as a mathematical object > without a base universe. But those are probably far more rare compared to > brains that evolve from simpler systems such as ourselves. > > > >> > >> What is it made of? > > > > > > Patterns of information; computation. > > > >> > >> What is its mass? > > > > > > Information has no mass, however the machinery of one particular > instance (incarnation) of a mind can have a mass. > > > >> > >> Do dogs have souls? (Socialists, Canadians, hamsters, goldfish, etc...?) > > > > > > As far as we know. Though I don't know if it can ever be proved, the > cost of being wrong (wrongly assuming something doesn't have a soul) can be > very high. Descartes for example performed vivisections on his own dogs, > under the assumption that they has no consciousness and despite their cries > were not suffering. > > > >> > >> How does it arise? (can we make one in the laboratory?) > >> > > > > Many computer programs running on our laptops or phones may possess some > minimum consciousness. Consciousness is awareness of information. > Self-driving cars probably have at least insect-level consciousness. > > > > I like to say that the "If statement" is the atom of consciousness, > since it is the most basic aspect in programming where a system can react > differently based on the state of some information. For there to be > information, some system or processed must be informed, which means that > system or process has to enter a different state based on that information. > > > >> > >> and, of course, what is your proof that it exists? > >> > > > > Roughly it comes down to these two things: > > 1. The fact that you know you are conscious (consciousness exists) + 2. > The rational conclusions that can be drawn from assuming our best > scientific theories are true, which imply all the aforementioned properties > of consciousness. > > > >> > >> I'm sure there will be many more questions, if you can demonstrate that > >> you're actually on to something. > > > > > > Let me know if you have any others. > > > > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sat Apr 25 21:43:10 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:43:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] So much for it being no worse than the ordinary flu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am getting tired of seeing this ?it?s just a bad flu? meme/talking point on social media and seemingly supported by Dylan, Rafal, and Zoltan. I work in healthcare and keep hearing how we?ve never seen anything like this, how frontline staff are tired from working so much and going non stop at high intensity. Did anyone see 60 Minutes last week? It?s reported on their page here in addition to the video https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-new-york-city-deaths-60-minutes-2020-04-19/ on how freezer trucks are needed for bodies in NYC and how mass graves are being dug for non claimed bodies? Also, did anyone see the news today about it seems to be causing stokes and not just in older folks. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/ The doc talks about how he watched clots forming in real time as he was doing the procedure to remove one. I do get that it?s not deadly for the most part and that that risk increases with age and if one has cooccurring illnesses. According to this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3357941/ seasonal flu typically kills 0.1 percent of patients. That Post article has data on death rates: ?In the vast majority of younger adults, covid-19 appears to result in mild illness with the risk of more severe consequences rising with every decade of age. According to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data, 0.8 percent of U.S. deaths as of Apr. 18 were in people ages 25 to 34; 2 percent among those 35 to 44; and 5.4 percent among those 45 to 54.? That 5.4 percent for 45-54s does startle me as one of them. I don?t feel that concern regarding the flu. Also I think there is underreporting of deaths caused by covid-19 like in those stoke cases and people not tested at death. -Henry >> On Apr 25, 2020, at 11:14 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > Yesterday, a very long time ago in the world of viruses, I said: > > "I don't know that new cases have peaked. Yesterday April 23 31,900 more Americans got sick from Covid-19, on April 19 only 26,183 did, you'd have to go back to April 17 to find a larger number and even then it was only slightly larger." > > And today one day later we know for sure that new cases have NOT peaked. On Friday April 24 38,958 more Americans got sick from Covid-19, and that is the largest number ever by a considerable margin. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 22:56:40 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 08:56:40 +1000 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: <008601d61b1c$23c81e00$6b585a00$@rainier66.com> References: <008601d61b1c$23c81e00$6b585a00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 at 02:32, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > > >?So I ask: is religion playing a good role in their lives, or a bad one? > > > > Perhaps I am the wrong one to ask, for I know personally people who have > been changed for the better by religion. Hey it works for them, even > doublethink. I am not capable of it myself, but if it works for them, who > the hell am I to judge? Thinking right isn?t everything, it isn?t the only > thing that matters. > > > > Another way to say it: if you needed surgery who would you rather have, > Dr. Leonard Bailey, or? the right-thinking you know who? > > > > So would I. > > > > >?Bad might mean that they deny reality in other areas of their lives, > are way too credulous ($ to Nigeria maybe?), and so on. > > > > It has long been a fantasy of mine if I made a buttload, a really fun gag > I would play: get an actual literal Nigerian prince, put up the money > behind him, say 2.47 million US dollars, and see how long it takes him to > give it away to an American person he heard was a worthy sort, reliable, of > good character, that sorta thing. > > > > The prince could send one email a day, worded in his own perfectly > authentic classic Nigerian prince style. He would get a commission if he > managed to give away the money. He has to get the gullible person to hand > over their bank account number, at which time the Prince would deposit the > actual literal money into that account, exactly as he said he would. Then > we watch what the gullible victim does once he or she sees all that money > show up in the account. > > > > Oh that would be a hoot. > > > > I suspect that prince would go thru a lot of people before he managed to > get anyone who would believe. > > > > Opiates of the people - necessary? > > > > bill w > > > > Whelp. Billw, I would hafta conclude that opiates really are necessary > for some people. But hey I don?t know everything there is to know. Do > you? Does anyone here know everything there is to know? Neither do I. > But I am learning. I will let ya know when I know everything. > I have an associate who, when she was a student, had a job in a shopping centre promoting a certain telephone company. One of the promotions involved standing with a basket full of $5 notes and handing out the notes to anyone who walked past (because the company?s phone deals were so good it was as if they were handing out money, get it?). The surprising thing was that a large number of people refused the cash, looking at her suspiciously, even avoiding getting too close to her as they walked past as if afraid she was going to hurt them in some way. There was no catch, just take the $5 from the charming young woman and walk off! > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 00:13:28 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:13:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40194F01-9973-4F56-86B7-2C39B295A09D@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? > From historian John M. Barry: "When you mix politics and science, you get politics." > > bill w That?s probably generalizable: When you mix politics with X, you get politics. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Apr 26 00:22:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:22:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <008601d61b1c$23c81e00$6b585a00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e801d61b60$d37d4160$7a77c420$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2020 3:57 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Stathis Papaioannou Subject: Re: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 at 02:32, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?So I ask: is religion playing a good role in their lives, or a bad one? ? - necessary? bill w Whelp. Billw, I would hafta conclude that opiates really are necessary for some people. But hey I don?t know everything there is to know. Do you? Does anyone here know everything there is to know? Neither do I. But I am learning. I will let ya know when I know everything. >?I have an associate who, when she was a student, had a job in a shopping centre promoting a certain telephone company. One of the promotions involved standing with a basket full of $5 notes and handing out the notes to anyone who walked past (because the company?s phone deals were so good it was as if they were handing out money, get it?). The surprising thing was that a large number of people refused the cash, looking at her suspiciously, even avoiding getting too close to her as they walked past as if afraid she was going to hurt them in some way. There was no catch, just take the $5 from the charming young woman and walk off! -- Stathis Papaioannou It would be such a kick to do that. I will do it should I ever become a buttloadaire. Suppose you did. Then you dump all this money into some gullible rube?s account, and now she does her taxes, the IRS sees all this interest (because she is afraid to actually spend any of it.) Or she declares the pile as gift. They aren?t going to believe it either, so they start threatening her with jail if she doesn?t confess everything, leads back to the actual literal generous Nigerian prince. So now all these IRS agents start scrambling thru their own spam email folders looking to cash in themselves or to see how much money they refused, and they urge their children and parents to do likewise. Pretty soon the story leaks, and now? any time anyone gets one of those spams, they can never be sure if it is some American scammer or an actual Nigerian prince. Or a Nigerian scammer or an American prince, but in any case? it would sow utter chaos and delightful uncertainty. Then of course I would benefit, even if indirectly. They trace the dough back to me, I wasted 2.47 million bucks on a gag, everybody thinks I am crazy as a loon, therefore they assume I am a mathematical genius. Money well spent. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 00:50:42 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 19:50:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: <40194F01-9973-4F56-86B7-2C39B295A09D@gmail.com> References: <40194F01-9973-4F56-86B7-2C39B295A09D@gmail.com> Message-ID: So, does that make politics the highest profession or one of the lowest? It is certainly the most powerful. We have standards for dentists, hairdressers, and many more. We have no standards for politicians. Open to all. Many of the Founding Fathers thought this was a mistake, but they wanted to avoid kings. Maybe they were right. bill w bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 7:16 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:? > > From historian John M. Barry: "When you mix politics and science, you get > politics." > > bill w > > > That?s probably generalizable: > > When you mix politics with X, you get politics. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 02:31:39 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 21:31:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 5:40 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul. There is much >> that we can glean about the soul just using science. There is scientific >> support for many ideas that one would typically assume fall into the sphere >> of religion. For example: eternal life, immortality, reincarnation, >> afterlives, divine union, the immateriality of the soul and its distinction >> from the body.* > > > I'm not sure what "divine union" means > I mean Open Individualism . The idea that there is only one mind, and we are each a part of it. Many scientists have embraced this notion, for example Erwin Schr?dinger, Fred Hoyle, and Freeman Dyson. > but all those other ideas are not incompatible with information as Claude > Shannon described the word. > Thanks. > But there are important differences too, the soul can't be duplicated but > information can be, and the inner workings of the soul can never be > understood but information can be, in fact information is the only thing > that can be understood. > > I recognize the present difficulties, but I hesitate to use the word "never" when it comes to things we may learn or do in the future. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 03:02:44 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 22:02:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: References: <40194F01-9973-4F56-86B7-2C39B295A09D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, age and citizenship. And I believe some felonies are disqualifying. So take heart, it could be lower! SR Ballard > On Apr 25, 2020, at 7:50 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > So, does that make politics the highest profession or one of the lowest? It is certainly the most powerful. We have standards for dentists, hairdressers, and many more. We have no standards for politicians. Open to all. Many of the Founding Fathers thought this was a mistake, but they wanted to avoid kings. Maybe they were right. bill w > > bill w > >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 7:16 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> On Apr 25, 2020, at 1:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? >>> From historian John M. Barry: "When you mix politics and science, you get politics." >>> >>> bill w >> >> That?s probably generalizable: >> >> When you mix politics with X, you get politics. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books at: >> http://author.to/DanUst >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 04:54:56 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 21:54:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Running PPE supplies feels like running drugs sometimes Message-ID: "You got the goods, man?" "Right here." "Set them down and back away." "Doing so right now. And payment?" "Wired to your account from a source that's got no traceable connections to us, so no one here has to touch cash." "Cool. Take it and let's bail before the feds show up." No visible weapons. Didn't check for concealed. Didn't care to. (Granted, I knew the guy personally and trusted him not to bring guns.) Significant parts of the trip to and from the drop spot were spent at 90 mph. At one point, a police SUV slipped behind me - and let me go, apparently looking for people doing 100+. Though, 90 was speed of traffic at that time - on a section of freeway that's often been paralyzed to stop-and-go during morning/afternoon rush hour traffic over the past several years. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 05:09:37 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 07:09:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Soul (was: Re: No gods, no meaning?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Jason, I look forward to hearing your reactions to my book. Concerning this whole discussion, which I am following even if I don't intervene too much: This seems to confirm that words can't bridge this gap. When this discussion fades out, nobody will have been persuaded to change their mind. This and other gaps on fundamental issues depend too much on basic emotional stances that are much deeper than rational thought. I don't want to convert others - if their worldview makes them happy, then I am happy for them. I am tempted to say something when I see that others are NOT happy with their worldview, but then I remember that worldviews are deeper than words. It seems to me that the only thing we can do is to agree to disagree, and move on. There are many worthy goals that both believers and atheists can and should support. For example, making sure that all children have enough to eat, colonizing space, saving the koalas, developing futuristic tech... the list is long. Let's work on these things together. On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:54 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > Giulio, > > Your book sounds fascinating! I just ordered a copy and can't wait to read it. > > Best, > > Jason > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 3:03 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Jason is right, scientific theories of the soul are already published >> and out there. Not by lesser scientists, but by top Nobel-level >> scientists. I outline some of these theories in my book: >> https://turingchurch.net/tales-of-the-turing-church-23f4aa4050c6 >> >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:23 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> On 24/04/2020 23:57, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul >> >> >> >> Oh, wow! >> >> >> >> You realise how revolutionary this is? >> >> >> >> Before you write your book, I think you should publish your scientific >> >> evidence for the existence of a soul. >> >> >> > >> > The evidence and theories are already published and out there. These theories aren't my theories, I only demonstrate what these theories imply for the properties of the soul (consciousness). >> > >> > >> >> >> >> I always thought it was just a fantasy, some non-falsifiable made-up >> >> idea to make it easier to control people. >> > >> > >> > You're conscious aren't you? >> > >> > You probably are thinking "I have a consciousness, but I don't have a soul" >> > >> > Consider if my book shows how well-established scientific theories (special relativity, quantum mechanics, the computational theory of mind, mathematical platonism, etc.) -- all standard theories by scientists in those domains--inevitably lead to the conclusion that your consciousness is eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, resurrect, and is in a manner one with all other consciousnesses. >> > >> > If your consciousness indeed possesses these properties, would it not be more apt to call it a soul? >> > >> >> >> >> Be prepared for lots of questions. Personally, I'm interested to know: >> >> >> >> What is it, exactly? >> > >> > >> > Consciousness. >> > >> >> >> >> Does your soul remember your past? >> > >> > >> > There are situations in which you will find yourself in a position where you have consolidated memories from many experienced lives. For instance, awaking as a Jupiter brain that just spent the last hour living the lives of every being on a particular planet it chose to simulate. >> > >> > To put this in a more human-relatable example, do you remember playing as Link from Zelda, and Mario from Super Mario Brothers? Now consider the perspective of a billion year old uploaded being who has lived a million lifetimes in fully immersive VR (and uses memory blockers while in game) and wakes up after dying in the game. >> > >> >> How does it relate to the mind and the brain? >> > >> > >> > Consciousness is a result of the computation performed by the brain or any other computational substrate. If you believe in mathematical platonism, some minds can exist as the mathematical equivalent of a Boltzmann brain, i.e. as a Turing machine with unlimited computational resources where that Turing machine exists purely as a mathematical object without a base universe. But those are probably far more rare compared to brains that evolve from simpler systems such as ourselves. >> > >> >> >> >> What is it made of? >> > >> > >> > Patterns of information; computation. >> > >> >> >> >> What is its mass? >> > >> > >> > Information has no mass, however the machinery of one particular instance (incarnation) of a mind can have a mass. >> > >> >> >> >> Do dogs have souls? (Socialists, Canadians, hamsters, goldfish, etc...?) >> > >> > >> > As far as we know. Though I don't know if it can ever be proved, the cost of being wrong (wrongly assuming something doesn't have a soul) can be very high. Descartes for example performed vivisections on his own dogs, under the assumption that they has no consciousness and despite their cries were not suffering. >> > >> >> >> >> How does it arise? (can we make one in the laboratory?) >> >> >> > >> > Many computer programs running on our laptops or phones may possess some minimum consciousness. Consciousness is awareness of information. Self-driving cars probably have at least insect-level consciousness. >> > >> > I like to say that the "If statement" is the atom of consciousness, since it is the most basic aspect in programming where a system can react differently based on the state of some information. For there to be information, some system or processed must be informed, which means that system or process has to enter a different state based on that information. >> > >> >> >> >> and, of course, what is your proof that it exists? >> >> >> > >> > Roughly it comes down to these two things: >> > 1. The fact that you know you are conscious (consciousness exists) + 2. The rational conclusions that can be drawn from assuming our best scientific theories are true, which imply all the aforementioned properties of consciousness. >> > >> >> >> >> I'm sure there will be many more questions, if you can demonstrate that >> >> you're actually on to something. >> > >> > >> > Let me know if you have any others. >> > >> > Jason >> > _______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 07:42:18 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 02:42:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 86 In-Reply-To: <39ed8efc-4161-be6b-490d-438d52b67eed@zaiboc.net> References: <39ed8efc-4161-be6b-490d-438d52b67eed@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I just wanted to clarify some things in the digest below (if I don't respond to a particular point below, assume I accept the point / agree): On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 5:16 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ben: "The problem is, the very nature of religion is about control, not > figuring things out." > > Jason: "I would say that depends on the religion. What about Bahai Faith, > Unitarian Universalism, the Universal Life Church, and countless others?" > > Almost all religions forbid (sometimes with severe penalties), or at least > strongly discourage, homosexuality. > Even Sikhism, which is one of the least offensive religions I know of, > prohibits a bunch of silly things like getting your hair cut, having sex > with the wrong person, drinking, etc. And of course there's no need to even > mention the Judaeo-Christian religions, we all know what they're like. The > Bahai faith forbids homosexuality and gambling. Hinduism has various food > rules, taboos concerning women and feet, and of course the 'sex with the > wrong person' thing that just about every religion has (question: do you > know of *any* contemporary religion that doesn't have this? Why do > religions arrogate to themselves the right to tell you who you can and > can't have sex with? Why do they even think it's any of their business?) > That's a good question, I don't necessarily endorse or advocate any of those proscriptions. Perhaps something worth investigating is that religious systems, like businesses, and life forms, are probably subject to something like Darwinian forces. They have to out-compete others to survive in the long term, and that probably requires that they offer some benefit for their host societies, either in terms of greater stability, prosperity, cooperation, or whatever effects serve to increase the fitness of the society that hosts them. This is perhaps not unlike Dawkin's "meme " concept. > > Notice I'm not talking about things like a ban on murder, theft or > extortion (in fact, some of those things are even encouraged in some > religions, under some circumstances), but things that are either literally > harmless or a matter of opinion. This is symptomatic of systems that have > control as one of their goals. "No, you can't do that". "Why not, it's not > hurting anyone?". "Because I (or this book, or that imaginary man in the > sky) say so, that's why not. Just do as you're told". Or some pathetic > attempt to disguise 'because I said so' such as "Because it makes baby > jesus cry". > > Some of the major prohibitions: > > Sikhism > Haircuts: Cutting or removing hair from any body part is strictly forbidden > > Intoxication: Consumption of drugs, Alcohol and tobacco, and other > intoxicants is not allowed for Amritdhari Sikhs and Keshdhari Sikhs. Drugs > and tobacco are forbidden for all. > > Strict prohibition on eating meat killed in a ritualistic manner (such as > halal or kosher) > > Having extramarital sexual relations > > Bahai > Homosexuality > Gambling > > Islam > Just about everything, including leaving Islam > > Christianity > Homosexuality, a ton of other things > > > > Jason: "In my view, both religion and science are about believing" > > Science is manifestly not about believing. It's about observing, > theorising, testing and revising. Belief is about holding something to be > true, no matter what. Belief is static. You can believe something that is > true, but you can just as easily believe something that is false. There is > no difference between the two in a belief. A difference in the real-world > consequences, yes, but not in the belief itself. Science is fluid, > responsive, and is always getting closer to the truth, while never quite > getting there. Belief already has 'The Truth' (in the minds of believers, > at least), so there's no need to investigate further. In fact, it's usually > discouraged. > I think the above excerpt removes critical context and distorts my original meaning. I said they are both about believing because they both concern beliefs. Religion is one's set of beliefs, and science is a tool by which we can improve our beliefs. The above seems to equate belief with blind faith (a belief based on no evidence). I disagree with that equivalence. We all have beliefs, and we all have some reason we can point to for why we hold that belief. Some justifications are more rational than others, and probably most of the beliefs we hold are wrong. Or perhaps in Robert Anton Wilson's words, every belief may be "true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense. And if you repeat this 666 times, you will achieve supreme enlightenment ? IN SOME SENSE!" > > > > Ben: "In science, evidence is king. In religion, evidence is the enemy" > > Jason: 'Again, this is highly dependent on the particular religion. Take > these words, from the son of the founder of the Bahai Faith: > > "If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be > a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two > wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which > the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! > Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly > fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the > wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the > despairing slough of materialism."' > > > Religion, in general is contrary to logical reason. That's one of the > things that usuallly characterise it. Otherwise, we'd call it 'logical > reason'. > "the despairing slough of materialism" is a revealing phrase. Why call it > that? I'm a card-carrying, dyed-in-the-wool hard-core materialist. Odd, > then, that I'm not wallowing in a slough of despair, is it not? In fact, my > attitude to life is very far from despair. About as far as you can get > (although I sometimes despair of *people*. Usually religious people). So > just what does that phrase reveal? Personally, I think it reveals fear. > Fear that magic might not be true. Existential angst. Fear that Kierkegaard > might have been right. Perhaps even fear of the personal responsibility > that's implied by relinquishing supernatural fantasies and embracing > materialism. After all, if you can't rely on a god to guide and look after > you, you're on your own, and that can be scary. I remember being scared > like that, as a kid, and not wanting to grow up and have to look after > myself. Then I grew up, and started to look after myself. > Why are you a transhumanist (forgive me if this assumption is incorrect, I am assuming you are as you are active on this list)? Does transhumanism not for some of us provide hope of a brighter future? Perhaps in the past this role was served by such promises found in religious texts--especially if you consider living in an era where people saw little to no technological or cultural progress in their lifetime. If you were both atheist and a pessimist (a pessimist regarding the future, technology or progress), then I think that would be quite a despairing world view. If, however, you are a transhumanist, optimist, singulartarian, etc. then there are plenty of reasons to not despair. > > In my opinion, religion and science are not like two wings, but two > propellers, one pointing forwards, and one pointing backwards. > > > Perhaps you can only see religion as it is and not for what it can be. Here is the main question I would like you to answer: is it possible to apply science to ideas normally considered the exclusive domain of religion? Can, in some hypothetical future, science investigate things like: God, gods, afterlives, ressurection, reincarnation, reality creation and intervention? I say yes. > > Ben: "You can say that the word 'god' can mean a lot of different things. > Fine. Sell that to the religious folks, see how far you get" > > Jason: "I don't need to. All of those examples of different concepts of > God I provided are core elements of existing religions" > > Yes, you can cherry-pick whatever you like, to be compatible with whatever > argument you like. For example, I've heard people use Einstein's remark > about god not playing dice with the universe to be proof that he believed > in god. We can play that game all day, it doesn't resolve anything. > Did I cherry pick? I cited religions whose adherents represent a majority of the Earth's population. > > Give that Hilda Phoebe Hudson to your average christian, what do you think > they'll make of it? > Are we discussing religious ideas or religious people? > > Also, of course every religion claims 'truth' for itself. The problem is, > they're very often conflicting 'truths'. > > For most believers, their god is not some abstract concept like Truth or > Consciousness, but an all-powerful nosy and vindictive being that watches > your every move, and punishes you for disobeying your priest. If you're > very lucky (and obedient), you might get rewarded with some ill-defined > paradise. After you're dead. > I think you're describing only one sect of one religion. Perhaps this is the one you were raised in? There are as many Hindus as Catholics. The supreme God in Hinduism is Brahman , who is the ground of all being. In Hinduism one of the most common and sacred of phrases is "Brahman is Atman ". Atman is the world for Soul or Consciousness. Thus you have as many people on Earth as in all of Catholicism who take it as a core tenet that the ground of all being is consciousness. So it's perhaps a little myopic to say most believers believe in a God that is all-powerful, nosy, vindictive, and punishes you for disobeying your priest. I think only a small minority of people would agree that the former sentence describes the God they believe in. > > Core elements of religions tend to be things like the baffling holy > trinity, the obnoxious concept of original sin, the insecurity of the god > in question, it's interest in our sex lives, punishments and rewards for > obeying or not, the imperative to convert non-believers, a ton of rules > about things you can't do, or must do, great detail about the horrors that > await the naughty, much vaguer ideas about the rewards that await the > compliant, and lots and lots of stories, most of which are irrelevant to > modern life, baffling to most people, and hence in need of interpretation > by the priests. > > > > "There are sets of beliefs compatible with science" > Only if you redefine the word 'beliefs'. Science requires evidence. Belief > does not. > I agree with the last sentence, but I would add: Science takes in evidence as input, and as output refines our confidence in different beliefs. We can't separate science from its goal/output, which is to produce a better set of beliefs. I think at this point, we may be mainly arguing over definitions, and not really discussing ideas of substance that we hold actual disagreements on. > > I suppose you could claim that the belief that the sun will rise tomorrow > is compatible with the scientific observations that lead to the same > conclusion. But they are different things. One does not need evidence, the > other does. One doesn't have to be explained, the other does. Maybe not > such a problem with things like the sunrise, but a big, big problem when it > comes to things like whether or not you should eat peanut butter on the > second thursday of the month. Or the existence of a soul. Or the age of the > earth. > We all hold fundamental beliefs concerning reality. Some of those beliefs are informed by listening to priests, some are informed by reading ancient books, others by reading recent articles, a rarer few from actually performing experiments themselves. In the definition I am operating under, all of those fundamental beliefs concerning reality are religious beliefs, regardless of how they were informed. If an atheist comes to reason that a God that is both omnipotent and benevolent is incompatible with the reality he sees around himself, that is still a religious belief, even though it is informed by logical reasoning. It is a religious belief inasmuch as a theist who believes there must be some greatest thing that exists through some ontological reasoning. Again we are only talking definitions here, you probably disagree with my use of "religious" to refer to any fundamental belief concerning reality, gods, souls, existence, the afterlife, etc. If I were to attempt describe your definition of a religious belief, it is one that must be based on no evidence, static, and support some theistic concept for which there is no evidence. But the problem with such a definition is that it changes the definition of religious based on the present state and progress of science. What if we do find evidence for or against any of those fundamental concepts which today you call religious? Then, given that we now have evidence, such beliefs (under your definition) would no longer be religious beliefs. Take the simulation argument, for example, which makes a scientific argument for the high probability that this universe we find ourselves in was created by a vastly superior intelligence. Is someone who believes in such a God (the creator of the simulation) a religious belief or not? Under your definition, it is not clear if belief in God is now a religious idea or a scientific one. Under mine, I would say it is still a religious belief because it is remains a fundamental belief concerning the nature of reality. > > So if you confine your 'beliefs' to things that can be demonstrated to be > true using the scientific method, yes, there are beliefs that are > compatible with science. But can you really call them 'beliefs'? We need to > distinguish between things that are held to be true because we can show > evidence or a good logical argument, and things that are held to be true > just because. Which usually means some emotional investment in an idea. > > > > "I agree with you that a static belief system is not as good as one that > can adapt in response to new evidence and understanding. I am not arguing > for a static belief system, only pointing out that there are frameworks of > belief (what you might call religious systems) that transcend the > definition of religion that you provide" > > What I'm saying is that a 'belief system that can adapt in response to new > evidence' is not a belief system at all, it's science. If you are not > arguing for a static belief system, you're arguing for science. > > And if you say Science is a religion, again we have a problem with words. > If you say that whales are fish, you've lost the ability to distinguish the > real differences between them. You have to start using qualifiers such as > 'milk-producing fish', which just leads back to needing different words for > the two different things. > > If you want a word that encompasses both, then I'd suggest 'world-view'. > This seems to fit, as a scientific world-view and a religious one are both > ways of trying to understand the world, taking different approaches. > If you say "Ah, but this religion takes the same approach as science", > then it's no longer a religion, it's science. > > > > Jason: "Interesting thought: Is Sagan's definition of science itself a > static belief? How could it ever change?" > > No, his definition is not a static belief. Because it's not based on > dogma. It's based on observation. "Science works" is not an unsupported > belief, it's an observation. To say that Sagan had a belief in science is > not correct. Everything in your quote is subject to falsification and if > necessary, revision. You can't say that about any 'holy gospels' which are > held to be eternally true, inviolable, infallible. Which of course is utter > nonsense. > In what category would mathematical beliefs, such as the belief that "1 + 1 = 2" fall into? Are true mathematical beliefs falsifiable, subject to revision, eternally true? > > How could it ever change? Through observation of conflicting evidence. If, > for example, we observed that how we wish things to be, consistently and > reliably changed reality, then the statement "We must understand the Cosmos > as it is and not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be" would be > falsified. I can't speak for Sagan, and neither can anyone else now that > he's dead, but I would certainly change my own opinions if the example > above came to pass. And anyone who wouldn't, couldn't say that they have a > scientific world-view. > > > Given the evidence and examples I provided regarding the scientific theory of the mechanistic description of the mind, have you changed your own opinion regarding the physical possibility of reincarnation, resurrection, and the continuance of a mind beyond the death of one of its bodies? Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 07:53:23 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 02:53:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 5:32 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 25/04/2020 00:36, Jason Resch wrote: > > According to mechanism (the idea that the brain is a machine and that > > consciousness is merely a product of this machine's operation), then: > > 1. survival of consciousness beyond the death of a body, > > 2. reincarnation, > > 3. the ability for the consciousness to travel to other universes, and > > 4. the distinction between the body and the consciousness are direct > > consequences. > > > > Mechanism holds that consciousness results from the operation of a > > machine (the brain). Therefore, consciousness is the result of a > > pattern of behaviors, not the underlying physical material or matter. > > If a body dies, you could use a different pile of matter to rebuild > > that machine and recover the consciousness. The consciousness then > > would survive beyond the death of any particular incarnation (body) > > and could reincarnate into new bodies. The analogy is similar to the > > notion of a story surviving the destruction of one copy of it in a > > book. The book, like the body, is just one particular token, > > representing a type (the story). But the type can exist as many > > different tokens. > > > > Most scientists and philosophers of mind ascribe to mechanism. > > Consciousness then is an informational pattern, not matter or energy. > > Consciousness has no mass, definite location, nor is it bound to the > > confines of this universe like the matter is. If in another universe > > someone recreated on a computer the same patterns the atoms in your > > brain here follow, then according to mechanism (what nearly every > > scientist will tell you) your consciousness would be recreated in that > > other universe. > > > > So here we have your "soul"--if you will call it that, surviving the > > death of the body, reincarnating into new bodies unassociated with the > > matter, and even leaving the universe to exist in some physically > > inaccessible realm. > > > > You may object that in practice we never re-create brains in such a > > way to enable reincarnation or allow the consciousness to survive the > > death of the body, but I disagree. The many worlds of quantum > > mechanics provides exactly the form of duplication necessary, and > > results in your consciousness travelling to now physically inaccesible > > corners of reality. Secondly, if a dying brain approaches zero > > information content, it results in there being a singular state (the > > consciousness of zero information). If this conscious state is > > identical in content to a newly forming brain in a womb, then this > > provides a mechanism of reincarnating into a new body. Then there is > > also the simulation hypothesis, where you are a descendent, or jupiter > > brain, or advanced alien playing sim human, and when you awaken from > > this game/dream/life you will find yourself in an "immaterial" > > (simulated/VR) realm where you are free to play "Sim Martian" or have > > any life of any mortal being you choose. > > > > Or, if this is too much, you might just say when your dead that's it. > > (but then you need to find an alternate theory of consciousness which > > prohibits these possibilities). > > > > Your terminology is more suggestive of supernatural concepts than > scientific ones, but I see what you're getting at. However, you seem to > be ignoring the vital role of matter and energy in implementing > information. There's no such thing as information without matter and/or > energy. There's no such thing as a mind without a brain. > > I do say that when you're dead, that's it. In the absence of some > intervention to record, transfer and restore the information in the > brain. I'm saying nothing about other universes or quantum physics, I'm > not qualified to, but in this universe, in the macroscopic world we're > all familiar with, it seems that minds are produced by the functioning > of brains. If we can reproduce the functions exactly, as you say, we > have reproduced the mind. That doesn't mean that if a brain is > destroyed, the mind isn't also destroyed. The things you are calling > 'reincarnation' (I really don't like using that term, for the reason > above) can indeed happen, but only if someone does something to achieve > it. Absent that, you're dead, Jim. > In an infinite reality, the probability that your mind is not created elsewhere and will never reappear elsewhere is zero. You get this even without presuming quantum mechanics or alternate universes, just infinite space, which is the standard cosmological model used by cosmologists. (See the first page of Tegmark , which calculates you have an exact copy 10^(10^28) meters away). The only way to confidently proclaim someone is dead is if you knew that at no time, anywhere else in all of reality, will this person's mind ever recur. This requires knowledge of all of reality across all of time. You could conclude upon finding someone's body that they have died locally, but you cannot conclude their mind is gone, nor that it hasn't continued elsewhere in reality. > > Some people dispute this, quoting things like the holographic universe > theory, but again, I'm not qualified to comment on that, and I certainly > wouldn't want to rely on it. > > The idea of a huge/infinite reality is a direct consequence of a several disparate scientific theories: cosmic inflation, quantum mechanics, string theory landscape, and mathematical platonism. I would say then, it is an anti-scientific viewpoint, to argue that the consciousness/mind does not survive the death of the body--as in an infinite or sufficiently large reality (which is a scientifically supported idea), it is a certainty that the mechanism supporting the continued operation of that mind exists elsewhere. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Apr 26 10:14:26 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:14:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Beliefs (was: ,Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 86) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f84f6a3-4162-efee-ab53-3b35a3c6185d@zaiboc.net> On 26/04/2020 08:42, Jason Resch wrote: > The above seems to equate belief with blind faith (a belief based on > no evidence). I disagree with that equivalence. Do you not think it's important (if not essential) to be able to distinguish between the meanings of "I believe in God" and "I believe it will rain this afternoon"? Nobody expects that someone who's said the latter will insist that it really is raining when no rain appears in the afternoon, that the rain is invisible, undetectable, but nevertheless really there, etc. Personally, I try to avoid the word 'believe' unless it clearly means 'think' from the context (as in the rain example above), and even then I prefer not to use it, because it's far too easy to confuse the two meanings. The classic example is the arguments people get into about atheism. Atheists do not believe in the existence of gods. But if you're not careful, and use the word belief in the 'weak' sense, the statement 'Atheists think that gods don't exist' (which is generally true) can become 'Atheists believe that gods don't exist', which is not the case, at least for most atheists, as previously discussed on this list. If I think something, that's just my opinion, which is subject to revision. If I use the word 'believe', its far too easily (in many cases), interpreted as the 'strong' version of the word, the blind faith version. This is why I'm so insistent on challenging people when they say 'Atheists believe there are no gods'. They may /mean/ 'Atheists think there are no gods', but that's not what they're saying. Especially as we're talking about gods, the word 'believe' is almost certain to be taken the same way as religious people mean it when they say they do believe, rather than the way someone means it when they say 'I don't believe it will rain this aftenoon'. I think that magic is not real. I do not /believe/ that magic is not real. It's not that I think there's a likelihood that it is, but if sufficient good evidence was presented that it is, I would change my mind. You say you disagree with the equivalence of 'belief' with 'blind faith'. Then you need to persuade religous believers to stop using the word, and refer to their blind faith in gods, etc., instead of belief. Otherwise, the equivalence is a fact. When you say "we all have beliefs", you are saying "we all have blind faiths", unless you qualify it to mean "we all think certain things are true". Jason: "Why are you a transhumanist (forgive me if this assumption is incorrect, I am assuming you are as you are active on this list)? Does transhumanism not for some of us provide hope of a brighter future? Perhaps in the past this role was served?by such promises found in religious texts--especially if you consider living in an era where people saw little to no technological or cultural progress in their lifetime." Indeed I am a transhumanist. Yes, it does provide hope of a brighter future. Whether or not the same hope has anything to do with religion, I don't care. If it's true, that doesn't have any bearing at all on the validity or truth of religious texts, or any religious opinions. The reason I am a transhumanist is because it specifies that the improvement in the human condition is to be achieved via the rational application of science and technology, which in my experience, works, and not via superstitious means (magic, religion, wishful thinking, etc.), which in my experience, doesn't work. Jason: "Perhaps you can only see religion as it is and not for what it can be" I can certainly imagine religion transforming into something that it isn't today. People can imagine all sorts of things. I don't think that confusing what something could potentially be for what it actually is in the present, is very helpful, though. And, to become something good and useful, religion would have to transform so radically that to continue to use the word 'religion' for it would be misleading to say the least. Jason: "is it possible to apply science to ideas normally considered the exclusive domain of religion?" You have to be careful here. Science can only be applied to things that are falsifiable. Many things that are the domain of religion are not. But science has been applied to several things that are claimed by various religions (search for 'Does prayer work?', for instance), and found them to be false. Not that this deters any religious people, as they usually just squirm their way to an interpretation of their claims that can't be falsified. Jason: "Did I cherry pick?" Yes. You selected quotes from the large body of literature available from the religion in question that related to the relevant idea. But your claim was that these ideas are 'core themes'. I could claim that a core theme of entomology is interference patterns, and quote research on the colours of butterfly wings. I won't convince anybody, though. I don't know much about Hinduism, and maybe hindus aren't concerned about their gods rewards and punishments, perhaps there aren't any, in which case, good for them. I can't help wondering, though, where all those taboos come from. If someone eats a cow, what will (supposedly) happen? What's so bad about feet, or menstruation? Jason: "We all hold fundamental beliefs concerning reality" If you replace the word 'beliefs' with 'ideas', then I agree. In fact, things would be a lot clearer if, everywhere the word 'belief' was used, it was replaced with 'idea', and 'believe' was replaced with 'think', with appropriate qualifiers to distinguish between blind faith and rational thought. It seems that by 'religious belief', you mean 'world-view'. Use that term, and I'd agree that this encompasses atheism. Again, using the term 'religious belief' instead just causes confusion and resentment (and gives religious apologists ammunition). Jason: "What if we do find evidence for or against any of those fundamental concepts which today you call religious? Then, given that we now have evidence, such beliefs (under your definition) would no longer be religious beliefs" Correct. You've heard of 'the god of the gaps', haven't you? As soon as something mysterious is shown to have a rational explanation, there's no longer a need for the 'goddiddit' explanation any more. Nobody thinks that Thor or Zeus is the cause of lightning bolts anymore, because we now know how they really work. But maybe you mean something different when you say 'fundamental concepts'. The key question is: Are they falsifiable? If so, they can be disproved, and fall out of the realm of religion (there's no longer any need to 'believe' them (blind-faith version), they have been demonstrated to be true or false), but if not, science can't address them. Which usually means they aren't real, but anyway, they remain in the magical realm of the gods. The simulation argument is not a religious concept. It's a thought-experiment that, as far as we know, can't be proven. So, while it is (probably) unfalsifiable, neither is it a subject of blind faith. The people who think it's probably true, just assign a high probability to it, those who think it's probably false, don't. And there are plenty of people who think it's irrelevant anyway, so don't worry about it at all. The difference between a simulator and a god is clear, though. One is logically consistent with the laws of physics, the other is supernatural. Jason: "In what category would mathematical beliefs, such as the belief that "1?+ 1 = 2" fall into? Are true mathematical beliefs falsifiable, subject to revision, eternally true?" I don't know the full answer to that, I'm not? a mathematician. But there are no such things as 'mathematical beliefs'. There are Axioms. Things that are held to be true because other things depend on them. 1 + 1 = 2 is not a belief. You don't have to have blind faith in it, you can prove it. There are other systems of mathematics with other axioms, I think. I don't know anything about them, so someone who actually knows maths might want to comment on that, but my understanding is that maths is an (approximately) self-contained logical system. G?del shows that this is not quite true, of course, but I'm way out of my depth there. I think you're just asking the wrong question, here, to be honest. Jason: "Given the evidence and examples I provided regarding the scientific theory of the mechanistic description of the mind, have you changed your own opinion regarding the physical possibility of reincarnation, resurrection, and the continuance of a mind beyond the death of one of its bodies?" I think you misunderstand my position. I'm a materialist, and fully accept the 'mechanistic description of the mind'. I think that uploading, diverging identity, mind backups and possibly even merging of different versions of a mind are all theoretically possible, and have done for a long time. There's one important thing about materialism: It excludes the supernatural. I don't use the terms 'reincarnation', 'resurrection' etc., because these are words that come from the world of magical religious thinking (the supernatural), and give completely the wrong impression. There's a huge difference between saying "I believe in reincarnation" and "I think that uploading is theoretically possible". -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 12:07:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 08:07:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:35 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> I'm not sure what "divine union" means >> > > > *I mean Open Individualism > . The idea that there is > only one mind, and we are each a part of it.* > How would things be different if it wasn't true and there was more than one mind? If there was only one I should always know what you're thinking, but I don't. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Apr 26 13:46:47 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 14:46:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20af210b-5715-0149-b0d4-6a24d578ffc4@zaiboc.net> On 25/04/2020 06:45, Jason Resch wrote: > I'm curious what you make of the Mormon Transhumanist Association: > https://transfigurism.org/ Sorry, I seem to have missed a couple of digests. My spam filter is a bit slow to learn! The MTA suffers from confusion, in my opinion. The very first thing you see on their website is this: "As disciples of Jesus Christ, we believe in using technology to serve, lift, and love." So, they're disciples of a character that, as far as anyone knows, is a mythological composite, rather like Robin Hood or King Arthur, they hold a belief (presumably in the 'blind faith' sense), and they see their goals as to 'serve, lift, and love'. Who or what they intend to serve and love, is not stated here, I suspect it's not the human race. Further down: "We believe that scientific knowledge and technological power are among the means ordained of God ..." This is clearly a religion. They call themselves transhumanists, but they take as a given the existence of a supernatural deity, and then assume the role of willing slaves to it. One of the principles of transhumanism is autonomy. That seems to be missing here. Another is rationality. Ditto. It looks to me that they are a religion that has selected, adopted and adapted some of the principles of transhumanism, leaving behind what are arguably the most significant ones, and take that as justification for calling themselves 'transhumanist'. This is a bit like a meat-eater who adds salad to their diet and starts calling themselves a vegetarian. -- Ben Zaiboc From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 15:37:50 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 10:37:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beliefs (was: , Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 86) In-Reply-To: <2f84f6a3-4162-efee-ab53-3b35a3c6185d@zaiboc.net> References: <2f84f6a3-4162-efee-ab53-3b35a3c6185d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: And, to become something good and useful, religion would have to transform so radically that to continue to use the word 'religion' for it would be misleading to say the least. Ben I am going to stay out of this one except for this quote from you: there are plenty of religions that do good in observable ways. One of them is the Salvation ARmy. They often beat the Red Cross to disasters. They are a good example of people putting their faith into actions. They do not try to gain supporters from the people they are helping - they just help with food, shelter, linens etc. Granted: they are exceptions, but I do know of local churches that serve food to the homeless. bill w On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 26/04/2020 08:42, Jason Resch wrote: > > The above seems to equate belief with blind faith (a belief based on no > evidence). I disagree with that equivalence. > > > Do you not think it's important (if not essential) to be able to > distinguish between the meanings of "I believe in God" and "I believe it > will rain this afternoon"? Nobody expects that someone who's said the > latter will insist that it really is raining when no rain appears in the > afternoon, that the rain is invisible, undetectable, but nevertheless > really there, etc. > > Personally, I try to avoid the word 'believe' unless it clearly means > 'think' from the context (as in the rain example above), and even then I > prefer not to use it, because it's far too easy to confuse the two > meanings. The classic example is the arguments people get into about > atheism. Atheists do not believe in the existence of gods. But if you're > not careful, and use the word belief in the 'weak' sense, the statement > 'Atheists think that gods don't exist' (which is generally true) can become > 'Atheists believe that gods don't exist', which is not the case, at least > for most atheists, as previously discussed on this list. > > If I think something, that's just my opinion, which is subject to > revision. If I use the word 'believe', its far too easily (in many cases), > interpreted as the 'strong' version of the word, the blind faith version. > This is why I'm so insistent on challenging people when they say 'Atheists > believe there are no gods'. They may *mean* 'Atheists think there are no > gods', but that's not what they're saying. Especially as we're talking > about gods, the word 'believe' is almost certain to be taken the same way > as religious people mean it when they say they do believe, rather than the > way someone means it when they say 'I don't believe it will rain this > aftenoon'. > > I think that magic is not real. I do not *believe* that magic is not > real. It's not that I think there's a likelihood that it is, but if > sufficient good evidence was presented that it is, I would change my mind. > > You say you disagree with the equivalence of 'belief' with 'blind faith'. > Then you need to persuade religous believers to stop using the word, and > refer to their blind faith in gods, etc., instead of belief. > Otherwise, the equivalence is a fact. > > When you say "we all have beliefs", you are saying "we all have blind > faiths", unless you qualify it to mean "we all think certain things are > true". > > > Jason: "Why are you a transhumanist (forgive me if this assumption is > incorrect, I am assuming you are as you are active on this list)? > > Does transhumanism not for some of us provide hope of a brighter future? > Perhaps in the past this role was served by such promises found in > religious texts--especially if you consider living in an era where people > saw little to no technological or cultural progress in their lifetime." > > Indeed I am a transhumanist. Yes, it does provide hope of a brighter > future. Whether or not the same hope has anything to do with religion, I > don't care. If it's true, that doesn't have any bearing at all on the > validity or truth of religious texts, or any religious opinions. > > The reason I am a transhumanist is because it specifies that the > improvement in the human condition is to be achieved via the rational > application of science and technology, which in my experience, works, and > not via superstitious means (magic, religion, wishful thinking, etc.), > which in my experience, doesn't work. > > > Jason: "Perhaps you can only see religion as it is and not for what it > can be" > > I can certainly imagine religion transforming into something that it isn't > today. People can imagine all sorts of things. I don't think that confusing > what something could potentially be for what it actually is in the present, > is very helpful, though. And, to become something good and useful, religion > would have to transform so radically that to continue to use the word > 'religion' for it would be misleading to say the least. > > > Jason: "is it possible to apply science to ideas normally considered the > exclusive domain of religion?" > > You have to be careful here. Science can only be applied to things that > are falsifiable. Many things that are the domain of religion are not. But > science has been applied to several things that are claimed by various > religions (search for 'Does prayer work?', for instance), and found them to > be false. Not that this deters any religious people, as they usually just > squirm their way to an interpretation of their claims that can't be > falsified. > > > Jason: "Did I cherry pick?" > > Yes. > You selected quotes from the large body of literature available from the > religion in question that related to the relevant idea. But your claim was > that these ideas are 'core themes'. I could claim that a core theme of > entomology is interference patterns, and quote research on the colours of > butterfly wings. I won't convince anybody, though. > > > I don't know much about Hinduism, and maybe hindus aren't concerned about > their gods rewards and punishments, perhaps there aren't any, in which > case, good for them. I can't help wondering, though, where all those taboos > come from. If someone eats a cow, what will (supposedly) happen? What's so > bad about feet, or menstruation? > > > Jason: "We all hold fundamental beliefs concerning reality" > > If you replace the word 'beliefs' with 'ideas', then I agree. In fact, > things would be a lot clearer if, everywhere the word 'belief' was used, it > was replaced with 'idea', and 'believe' was replaced with 'think', with > appropriate qualifiers to distinguish between blind faith and rational > thought. > > It seems that by 'religious belief', you mean 'world-view'. Use that term, > and I'd agree that this encompasses atheism. Again, using the term > 'religious belief' instead just causes confusion and resentment (and gives > religious apologists ammunition). > > > Jason: "What if we do find evidence for or against any of those > fundamental concepts which today you call religious? Then, given that we > now have evidence, such beliefs (under your definition) would no longer be > religious beliefs" > > Correct. > You've heard of 'the god of the gaps', haven't you? > As soon as something mysterious is shown to have a rational explanation, > there's no longer a need for the 'goddiddit' explanation any more. Nobody > thinks that Thor or Zeus is the cause of lightning bolts anymore, because > we now know how they really work. > > But maybe you mean something different when you say 'fundamental > concepts'. The key question is: Are they falsifiable? If so, they can be > disproved, and fall out of the realm of religion (there's no longer any > need to 'believe' them (blind-faith version), they have been demonstrated > to be true or false), but if not, science can't address them. Which usually > means they aren't real, but anyway, they remain in the magical realm of the > gods. > > > The simulation argument is not a religious concept. It's a > thought-experiment that, as far as we know, can't be proven. So, while it > is (probably) unfalsifiable, neither is it a subject of blind faith. The > people who think it's probably true, just assign a high probability to it, > those who think it's probably false, don't. And there are plenty of people > who think it's irrelevant anyway, so don't worry about it at all. The > difference between a simulator and a god is clear, though. One is logically > consistent with the laws of physics, the other is supernatural. > > > Jason: "In what category would mathematical beliefs, such as the belief > that "1 + 1 = 2" fall into? Are true mathematical beliefs falsifiable, > subject to revision, eternally true?" > > I don't know the full answer to that, I'm not a mathematician. But there > are no such things as 'mathematical beliefs'. There are Axioms. Things that > are held to be true because other things depend on them. 1 + 1 = 2 is not a > belief. You don't have to have blind faith in it, you can prove it. There > are other systems of mathematics with other axioms, I think. I don't know > anything about them, so someone who actually knows maths might want to > comment on that, but my understanding is that maths is an (approximately) > self-contained logical system. G?del shows that this is not quite true, of > course, but I'm way out of my depth there. > I think you're just asking the wrong question, here, to be honest. > > > Jason: "Given the evidence and examples I provided regarding the > scientific theory of the mechanistic description of the mind, have you > changed your own opinion regarding the physical possibility of > reincarnation, resurrection, and the continuance of a mind beyond the death > of one of its bodies?" > > I think you misunderstand my position. I'm a materialist, and fully accept > the 'mechanistic description of the mind'. I think that uploading, > diverging identity, mind backups and possibly even merging of different > versions of a mind are all theoretically possible, and have done for a long > time. > There's one important thing about materialism: It excludes the > supernatural. > > I don't use the terms 'reincarnation', 'resurrection' etc., because these > are words that come from the world of magical religious thinking (the > supernatural), and give completely the wrong impression. There's a huge > difference between saying "I believe in reincarnation" and "I think that > uploading is theoretically possible". > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Apr 26 15:45:11 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 16:45:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> On 25/04/2020 23:57, Jason Resch wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 10:32 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > I think you mean 'mind' when you say 'soul', but then you invite > accusations of supernatural thinking by saying things like "your > consciousness is eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, > resurrect, and is in a manner one with all other consciousnesses". > > > It may sound supernatural, but those are just natural consequences of > standard scientific theories. > You have a strange idea of 'standard', and quite possibly 'scientific', too. No scientific theory I've heard of states that minds are eternal or 'uncreated' (what does that even mean?). Those are definitely religious concepts that take no notice of the natural world. The other words we've already dealt with, I think you're just using the wrong (or should i say misleading) terminology. Ben: So what, exactly, is Consciousness?. But don't worry if you can't answer that. Nobody else can either. Jason: I provided a definition and example in my previous email. An actual definition of consciousness? Strange that I don't remember reading that. Could you repeat it please? Jason: What about a mathematical Boltzmann brain? Is that not independent of matter and energy? No. (or Yes, in the same sense that Santa Claus is). As far as I understand, mathematical platonism is an arguing point for philosophers, of no real consequence to the real world. I don't know what a mathematical Boltzmann brain could be, or if it makes any sense, even in the context of mathematical platonism, but as far as I can tell, the idea is about as relevant as demonology. In the real world, information only exists as the arrangement of matter/energy, not an independent thing. Saying "if mathematical platonism is true..." is not an argument, unless you can send me the abstract number 42, without involving any matter or energy. Jason: If you don't attempt to or want to understand my points then you're right, this is going to be frustrating and pointless for the both of us I've been attempting to understand what you're saying, and so far I've come to the conclusion that either you have no intention or desire to distinguish between magic and reality, or you need to drastically revise your vocabulary if you expect anyone to understand you. If you'd (if it's possible to) drop the mystical terminology and stick to words that belong to the realm of the real world, that might help a lot. If that's not possible, I don't see how what you're saying is any more relevant to the real world than a Harry Potter story. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 16:17:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 11:17:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] baby fae In-Reply-To: References: <014401d61a79$01e94c80$05bbe580$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks! John bill w On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 2:28 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 1:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > What sort of mental illnesses did these people have - if you know? We >> all know there is a correlation between IQ and manic-depression. That >> diagnosis might not strike people as being crazy, like a diagnosis of >> schizophrenia and its hallucinations and delusions would, although a full >> blown manic episode would do it. >> > > I don't know the technical term for the illness but John Nash went so > crazy they made a very good movie about him, "A Beautiful Mind". > > Alexander Grothendieck and Grigori Perelman suddenly renounce mathematics > at the very height of their productivity and became hermits refusing to > talk to anybody for decades; Grothendieck lived on nothing but dandelion > soup and Perelman was offered the Fields Medal, the mathematical equivalent > to the Nobel Prize, but he refused it and for some weird reason thought it > a insult, he even refused a million dollars The Clay Mathematical Institute > wanted to give him as a sign of appreciation for proving the Poincar? > conjecture. > > Georg Cantor suffered from chronic depression all his life and it was so > bad he had to be hospitalized for it many times, and the eccentricities > of Paul Erd?s were legendary although he seems like a nice guy. > > As for > Godel, he was > the > > greatest > logician > of all time but he had some very illogical ideas. Godel > was always a very odd man and he got odder as he got older > especially after his best friend, Albert Einstein, died in 1955 > . He sealed his windows shut because he thought somebody > would > try to murder hi > m > with poison gas. > He > wore > a > heavy woolen coat on the hottest day > of summer > , > Godel believed in ghosts > and for unknown reasons he insisted on putting lots of cheap plastic > flamingos on his front lawn. > Godel disliked talking to people but if he had to he insisted they do it > on the telephone even if they were just a few feet away. Godel > ended up starving himself to death, he refused to eat because he thought > unnamed sinister forces were trying to poison him. The great logician > weighed 65 pounds when he died in 1978 from, according to the > official > death certificate, > " > lack of food brought on by paranoia > " > . > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 17:50:07 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 12:50:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sunday, April 26, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 25/04/2020 23:57, Jason Resch wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 10:32 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> I think you mean 'mind' when you say 'soul', but then you invite >> accusations of supernatural thinking by saying things like "your >> consciousness is eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, >> resurrect, and is in a manner one with all other consciousnesses". >> > > It may sound supernatural, but those are just natural consequences of > standard scientific theories. > > > You have a strange idea of 'standard', and quite possibly 'scientific', > too. > Or you could ask what scientific theories I am referring to. > > > No scientific theory I've heard of states that minds are eternal or > 'uncreated' (what does that even mean?). > > > I appreciate you asking for clarification. I'm happy to explain and clear up anything that's unclear. Special relativity implies spacetime, which means there is no such thing as an objective present point in time. This implies "block time" the idea that in reality the universe is a static unchanging 4 dimensional block rather than a 3d one evolving through time. Thus, all times are equally real, every thing in every time exists eternally and has always existed. See this paper for an explanation: http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/2408/1/Petkov-BlockUniverse.pdf But you don't have to take my word for it, or read that paper. It was Einstein's own conclusion regarding his own theory: http://everythingforever.com/einstein.htm "Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence." When his friend died, be wrote a letter to his widow, explaining, that though he died a little bit before Einstein that it means nothing, because: "for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one." Do you count special relativity as a standard scientific theory? Do you follow it's consequences that it implies everyone lives their lives in an eternal sense? That we each occupy all points in time across our lives forever. That Julius Caesars is from his perspective, still alive and back in 2000 BC, (or you might say, 2000 light years away from our location in spacetime.) > Those are definitely religious concepts that take no notice of the natural > world. The other words we've already dealt with, I think you're just using > the wrong (or should i say misleading) terminology. > > Ben: So what, exactly, is Consciousness?. But don't worry if > you can't answer that. Nobody else can either. > > Jason: I provided a definition and example in my previous email. > > An actual definition of consciousness? Strange that I don't remember > reading that. Could you repeat it please? > I defined consciousness as awareness of information, and said that it can arise in any information processing system which can enter different states based upon that information. Human consciousness is difficult to provide a reductionist account for because information processing systems are inherently non reductionist. A complex process cannot be reduced to simpler terms, as there's a notion of a minimum descriptive length for a program that achieves a certain feat. (See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity ) But I did say the simplest atom of consciousness might be a conditional (e.g. an if-statement). > > > Jason: What about a mathematical Boltzmann brain? Is that not independent > of matter and energy? > > No. (or Yes, in the same sense that Santa Claus is). > As far as I understand, mathematical platonism is an arguing point for > philosophers, of no real consequence to the real world. > Actually it's of the greatest consequence for the "real world". If true, it explains the appearance of what you call the real world, why the laws are simple, why they're fine tuned for life, why we live in a reality with quantum mechanics, and so on. These ideas have been explored by Bruno Marchal, Max Tegmark, Russell Standish and Markus Muller. For example see how much of physics can be recovered from assuming the existence of all computations: https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.01826 > > I don't know what a mathematical Boltzmann brain could be, or if it makes > any sense, even in the context of mathematical platonism, but as far as I > can tell, the idea is about as relevant as demonology. > I brought it up because you said information only exists if there's matter or energy. This was a counter example. You might say it's meaningless, but it's the default theory of mathematicians. That they are exploring and discovering things and truths that exist independently of them. This implies those mathematical structures have an existence independent of physical existence. But if you keep thinking on this, you might realize among those mathematical objects is something indistinguishable from our physical universe. Could it be? Might our physical universe might itself be a mathematical object? One among an infinity of all possible structures. This would explain the question that vexed Stephen Hawking, what breathes fire into the equations? The answer is simple. All universes described by all equations are real. There's nothing special about our own equations or universe except that they describe a universe where it's possible for life to evolve. > > In the real world, information only exists as the arrangement of > matter/energy, not an independent thing. Saying "if mathematical platonism > is true..." is not an argument, unless you can send me the abstract number > 42, without involving any matter or energy. > It's relevant as if some Turing machine elsewhere in reality simulates you then you have a nonzero chance of finding yourself kidnapped and in that new location beyond this universe. That Turing machine need not exist in a universe with quarks, photons, or leptons or anything else you might call matter or energy here. Here's a question for you: do you think Pi has infinite digits? If so, where do those infinite digits exist? > > > > > Jason: If you don't attempt to or want to understand my points then you're > right, this is going to be frustrating and pointless for the both of us > > I've been attempting to understand what you're saying, and so far I've > come to the conclusion that either you have no intention or desire to > distinguish between magic and reality, or you need to drastically revise > your vocabulary if you expect anyone to understand you. > Ask more questions. :-) It should be clear by now I'm not speaking about magic. My point is only that if we take existing theories seriously we're lead to conclusions that could easily be confused with magic. This shouldn't be entirely alien to Transhumanists who believe the future potential of technology will lead to near magic sounding capabilities. > > > If you'd (if it's possible to) drop the mystical terminology and stick to > words that belong to the realm of the real world, that might help a lot. If > that's not possible, I don't see how what you're saying is any more > relevant to the real world than a Harry Potter story. > What alternative words do you propose for the following concepts? "Dying in one body and being reborn in a new body?" (Reincarnation) "Not being able to experience death from a first person perspective and hence live indefinitely into the future" (immortality) "Living timelessly and eternally in all moments of your life forever" (eternal life) "Dying in one realm or universe and awakening as a new being in a different realm or universe with the memories of that life, or otherwise being brought back from the dead" (resurrection) "The immaterial, non destructible, non physical informational pattern that defines a person's mind and consciousness" (soul) I use these terms because they're the words that seem to fit best, but if you could recommend better words I will switch. Note that science didn't throw out the word Earth when we discovered it was round, nor did we throw out the word heat when we realized fire isn't an element. Instead we refined and improved our understanding if what those words mean. If we can do the same for concepts like reincarnation, why throw out the word? Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 18:46:18 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:46:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beliefs (was: , Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 86) In-Reply-To: References: <2f84f6a3-4162-efee-ab53-3b35a3c6185d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <8ABEA89C-681E-4FB4-A6E5-2FA3A5B81059@gmail.com> > And, to become something good and useful, religion would have to transform so radically that to continue to use the word 'religion' for it would be misleading to say the least. Ben > > I am going to stay out of this one except for this quote from you: there are plenty of religions that do good in observable ways. One of them is the Salvation ARmy. They often beat the Red Cross to disasters. They are a good example of people putting their faith into actions. They do not try to gain supporters from the people they are helping - they just help with food, shelter, linens etc. > > Granted: they are exceptions, but I do know of local churches that serve food to the homeless. bill w The Salvation Army, as an inherently Christian organization, is going to do some unlikable things. Volunteers are likely to foist their views off on those they are helping, and this has happened to me before. The only seasonable current accusation I would find is this: (so I think they are working hard to be more open/accepting) https://thinkprogress.org/transgender-substance-abuse-discrimination-salvation-army-6470b6abc397/ (However, with shared facilities I can see why it might be considered troubling, but how is it different than having a roommate. I live with three men.) I had other accusations, but I think anything pre-2010 isn?t really appropriate. Our culture has changed so much since then that it?s not really fair. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 19:04:43 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 14:04:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: <20af210b-5715-0149-b0d4-6a24d578ffc4@zaiboc.net> References: <20af210b-5715-0149-b0d4-6a24d578ffc4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 9:08 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 25/04/2020 06:45, Jason Resch wrote: > > I'm curious what you make of the Mormon Transhumanist Association: > > https://transfigurism.org/ > > Sorry, I seem to have missed a couple of digests. My spam filter is a > bit slow to learn! > > No worries, thanks for your reply. > The MTA suffers from confusion, in my opinion. > > The very first thing you see on their website is this: > > "As disciples of Jesus Christ, we believe in using technology to serve, > lift, and love." > > So, they're disciples of a character that, as far as anyone knows, is a > mythological composite, rather like Robin Hood or King Arthur, they hold > a belief (presumably in the 'blind faith' sense), and they see their > goals as to 'serve, lift, and love'. Who or what they intend to serve > and love, is not stated here, I suspect it's not the human race. > > Further down: > > "We believe that scientific knowledge and technological power are among > the means ordained of God ..." > > This is clearly a religion. They call themselves transhumanists, but > they take as a given the existence of a supernatural deity, and then > assume the role of willing slaves to it. One of the principles of > transhumanism is autonomy. That seems to be missing here. Another is > rationality. Ditto. > > Should autonomy include allowing someone to live as a servant, or devotee if that's how they want to live? If that gives them the most pleasure, fulfillment, or what have you, why shouldn't they live that way? Different people can have different values. I say "Whatever floats your boat" > It looks to me that they are a religion that has selected, adopted and > adapted some of the principles of transhumanism, leaving behind what are > arguably the most significant ones, and take that as justification for > calling themselves 'transhumanist'. This is a bit like a meat-eater who > adds salad to their diet and starts calling themselves a vegetarian. > > I can see your argument that transhumanism is founded on rationality and so anyone calling themselves a transhumanist ought to rid their mind of all irrational thought and beliefs, but I also worry this might be approaching a kind of "No true Scotsman " purism. I see nothing mentioned about rational beliefs in the opening paragraphs of the wikipedia article on transhumanism. Wikipedia defines transhumanism as "a philosophical movement that advocates for the transformation of the human condition by developing and making widely available sophisticated technologies to greatly enhance human intellect and physiology.[1][2]" So I would be open to a more open to the definition of transhumanism, as anyone who advocates for radically transforming and improving the human condition through technology. If you say no one with a belief you find to be irrational is a transhumanist, then there would be no transhumanists. Every human holds some irrational ideas in their head. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 19:14:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 15:14:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:10 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> So what, exactly, is Consciousness?. But don't worry if you can't answer > that. Nobody else can either.* I can, I can tell you exactly. Consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed intelligently. It must be true because if it were not Darwinian Evolution could never have produced it, and I know for a fact that it did at least once and probably many billions of times. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 19:22:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 14:22:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: John, or anyone: do you think that mathematics is more discovered than created? bill w On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 2:16 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 12:10 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> So what, exactly, is Consciousness?. But don't worry if you can't >> answer that. Nobody else can either.* > > > I can, I can tell you exactly. Consciousness is the way data feels when it > is being processed intelligently. It must be true because if it were not > Darwinian Evolution could never have produced it, and I know for a fact > that it did at least once and probably many billions of times. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 18:16:06 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:16:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sunday, April 26, 2020, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:35 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> I'm not sure what "divine union" means >>> >> >> > *I mean Open Individualism >> . The idea that there is >> only one mind, and we are each a part of it.* >> > > How would things be different if it wasn't true and there was more than > one mind? If there was only one I should always know what you're thinking, > but I don't. > If it weren't true that you were everyone, the odds of ever being born would be infinitesimally low. Zuboff explains the statistics in his "Oneself" paper. Actually, it turns out that all anthropic reasoning implicitly assumes open individualism; you can't make probabilistic statements concerning observers if you reject it. Finally, it is also the simplest theory consistent with the facts that answers survival questions like split brains, faulty transporters, consciousness mergers, duplications, clones, etc. The psychological and physiological continuity theories each have their breaking points which leads to absurdities. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 19:35:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 15:35:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 3:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John, or anyone: do you think that mathematics is more discovered than > created? > I think mathematics is the language of physics so if we ever meet ET we will at least have that in common, but there is more to reality than a language because you can't get milk from the word "cow". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 19:40:12 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 14:40:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beliefs (was: , Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 86) In-Reply-To: <2f84f6a3-4162-efee-ab53-3b35a3c6185d@zaiboc.net> References: <2f84f6a3-4162-efee-ab53-3b35a3c6185d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Hi Ben, I agree with most of what you write below. Just a few in-line comments. On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 5:38 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 26/04/2020 08:42, Jason Resch wrote: > > The above seems to equate belief with blind faith (a belief based on no > evidence). I disagree with that equivalence. > > > Do you not think it's important (if not essential) to be able to > distinguish between the meanings of "I believe in God" and "I believe it > will rain this afternoon"? Nobody expects that someone who's said the > latter will insist that it really is raining when no rain appears in the > afternoon, that the rain is invisible, undetectable, but nevertheless > really there, etc. > Ideally, all beliefs should have a probabilistic confidence level next to them, which we constantly adjust via Bayesian inference . In this way, there would be no fundamental difference between a belief in rain today and a belief in some god. The main difference is that new evidence will arrive in the afternoon to update the confidence in that belief, where it is less likely new evidence will emerge in the afternoon to update the confidence in the god belief. > > Personally, I try to avoid the word 'believe' unless it clearly means > 'think' from the context (as in the rain example above), and even then I > prefer not to use it, because it's far too easy to confuse the two > meanings. The classic example is the arguments people get into about > atheism. Atheists do not believe in the existence of gods. But if you're > not careful, and use the word belief in the 'weak' sense, the statement > 'Atheists think that gods don't exist' (which is generally true) can become > 'Atheists believe that gods don't exist', which is not the case, at least > for most atheists, as previously discussed on this list. > I agree, 'ideas' and 'think' are preferable, and we would do better to use such words more often in our discourse. > > If I think something, that's just my opinion, which is subject to > revision. If I use the word 'believe', its far too easily (in many cases), > interpreted as the 'strong' version of the word, the blind faith version. > This is why I'm so insistent on challenging people when they say 'Atheists > believe there are no gods'. They may *mean* 'Atheists think there are no > gods', but that's not what they're saying. Especially as we're talking > about gods, the word 'believe' is almost certain to be taken the same way > as religious people mean it when they say they do believe, rather than the > way someone means it when they say 'I don't believe it will rain this > aftenoon'. > > I think that magic is not real. I do not *believe* that magic is not > real. It's not that I think there's a likelihood that it is, but if > sufficient good evidence was presented that it is, I would change my mind. > > You say you disagree with the equivalence of 'belief' with 'blind faith'. > Then you need to persuade religous believers to stop using the word, and > refer to their blind faith in gods, etc., instead of belief. > Otherwise, the equivalence is a fact. > I see it like this: all blind faith is belief, but not all belief is blind faith. (but this is perhaps only a difference over terms and definitions, I agree with the content of what you say here). > > When you say "we all have beliefs", you are saying "we all have blind > faiths", unless you qualify it to mean "we all think certain things are > true". > > > Jason: "Why are you a transhumanist (forgive me if this assumption is > incorrect, I am assuming you are as you are active on this list)? > > Does transhumanism not for some of us provide hope of a brighter future? > Perhaps in the past this role was served by such promises found in > religious texts--especially if you consider living in an era where people > saw little to no technological or cultural progress in their lifetime." > > Indeed I am a transhumanist. Yes, it does provide hope of a brighter > future. Whether or not the same hope has anything to do with religion, I > don't care. If it's true, that doesn't have any bearing at all on the > validity or truth of religious texts, or any religious opinions. > > The reason I am a transhumanist is because it specifies that the > improvement in the human condition is to be achieved via the rational > application of science and technology, which in my experience, works, and > not via superstitious means (magic, religion, wishful thinking, etc.), > which in my experience, doesn't work. > > Do you see my point then, that someone born in the middle ages, who did not see technology as humanity's savoir, might find it less despairing to believe in a better next life rather than believe they would suffer now and that would be it? > > Jason: "Perhaps you can only see religion as it is and not for what it > can be" > > I can certainly imagine religion transforming into something that it isn't > today. People can imagine all sorts of things. I don't think that confusing > what something could potentially be for what it actually is in the present, > is very helpful, though. And, to become something good and useful, religion > would have to transform so radically that to continue to use the word > 'religion' for it would be misleading to say the least. > > > Jason: "is it possible to apply science to ideas normally considered the > exclusive domain of religion?" > > You have to be careful here. Science can only be applied to things that > are falsifiable. Many things that are the domain of religion are not. But > science has been applied to several things that are claimed by various > religions (search for 'Does prayer work?', for instance), and found them to > be false. Not that this deters any religious people, as they usually just > squirm their way to an interpretation of their claims that can't be > falsified. > > > Jason: "Did I cherry pick?" > > Yes. > You selected quotes from the large body of literature available from the > religion in question that related to the relevant idea. But your claim was > that these ideas are 'core themes'. I could claim that a core theme of > entomology is interference patterns, and quote research on the colours of > butterfly wings. I won't convince anybody, though. > > > I don't know much about Hinduism, and maybe hindus aren't concerned about > their gods rewards and punishments, perhaps there aren't any, in which > case, good for them. I can't help wondering, though, where all those taboos > come from. If someone eats a cow, what will (supposedly) happen? What's so > bad about feet, or menstruation? > > Perhaps these are questions best left to anthropologists and evolutionary biologists. It's easy to forget how far we have come since those were written. Only a few hundred years ago, about half of babies didn't survive to their first year. Disease killed many. No doubt this lead to all kinds of ideas about cleanliness, what foods could or should be eaten, etc. Many perhaps wrong or misguided, but I think with good intentions. Even today, much of nutrition science is bunk. Many medical practices, even those used until very recently (and surely some still today) are actively harmful. How will humans a thousand years from now judge today's (presumed to be rational and scientifically justified) proscriptions and prescriptions? > > Jason: "We all hold fundamental beliefs concerning reality" > > If you replace the word 'beliefs' with 'ideas', then I agree. In fact, > things would be a lot clearer if, everywhere the word 'belief' was used, it > was replaced with 'idea', and 'believe' was replaced with 'think', with > appropriate qualifiers to distinguish between blind faith and rational > thought. > > It seems that by 'religious belief', you mean 'world-view'. Use that term, > and I'd agree that this encompasses atheism. Again, using the term > 'religious belief' instead just causes confusion and resentment (and gives > religious apologists ammunition). > > I will use world-view from now on for that purpose. Thanks for the suggestion. > > Jason: "What if we do find evidence for or against any of those > fundamental concepts which today you call religious? Then, given that we > now have evidence, such beliefs (under your definition) would no longer be > religious beliefs" > > Correct. > You've heard of 'the god of the gaps', haven't you? > As soon as something mysterious is shown to have a rational explanation, > there's no longer a need for the 'goddiddit' explanation any more. Nobody > thinks that Thor or Zeus is the cause of lightning bolts anymore, because > we now know how they really work. > > But maybe you mean something different when you say 'fundamental > concepts'. The key question is: Are they falsifiable? If so, they can be > disproved, and fall out of the realm of religion (there's no longer any > need to 'believe' them (blind-faith version), they have been demonstrated > to be true or false), but if not, science can't address them. Which usually > means they aren't real, but anyway, they remain in the magical realm of the > gods. > > > The simulation argument is not a religious concept. It's a > thought-experiment that, as far as we know, can't be proven. So, while it > is (probably) unfalsifiable, neither is it a subject of blind faith. The > people who think it's probably true, just assign a high probability to it, > those who think it's probably false, don't. And there are plenty of people > who think it's irrelevant anyway, so don't worry about it at all. The > difference between a simulator and a god is clear, though. One is logically > consistent with the laws of physics, the other is supernatural. > I would argue that the entity and the computer who run the simulation are 'supernatural' in that they are beyond anything of our present nature/physical universe. They exist beyond nature, they don't adhere to our laws of physics. Though this is a terminology/definition disagreement, it restores the blur in the line between "God" and "simulator" -- when both can be considered beyond nature. > > > Jason: "In what category would mathematical beliefs, such as the belief > that "1 + 1 = 2" fall into? Are true mathematical beliefs falsifiable, > subject to revision, eternally true?" > > I don't know the full answer to that, I'm not a mathematician. But there > are no such things as 'mathematical beliefs'. There are Axioms. Things that > are held to be true because other things depend on them. 1 + 1 = 2 is not a > belief. You don't have to have blind faith in it, you can prove it. There > are other systems of mathematics with other axioms, I think. I don't know > anything about them, so someone who actually knows maths might want to > comment on that, but my understanding is that maths is an (approximately) > self-contained logical system. G?del shows that this is not quite true, of > course, but I'm way out of my depth there. > I think you're just asking the wrong question, here, to be honest. > You are right, axioms are still taken as beliefs which themselves can never be proven. G?del showed that no finite set of axioms is complete. That is, no finite set of axioms can be used to prove every mathematical statements that is true. In other words, mathematical truth cannot be defined, and transcends any attempts at specification. > > > Jason: "Given the evidence and examples I provided regarding the > scientific theory of the mechanistic description of the mind, have you > changed your own opinion regarding the physical possibility of > reincarnation, resurrection, and the continuance of a mind beyond the death > of one of its bodies?" > > I think you misunderstand my position. I'm a materialist, and fully accept > the 'mechanistic description of the mind'. I think that uploading, > diverging identity, mind backups and possibly even merging of different > versions of a mind are all theoretically possible, and have done for a long > time. > There's one important thing about materialism: It excludes the > supernatural. > > I don't use the terms 'reincarnation', 'resurrection' etc., because these > are words that come from the world of magical religious thinking (the > supernatural), and give completely the wrong impression. There's a huge > difference between saying "I believe in reincarnation" and "I think that > uploading is theoretically possible". > I think it is contextual. If reality is big enough such that "reincarnation" (let's say this is unintentional continuation of the mind, unlike mind uploading which is controlled and intentional) happens automatically, then there is a different flavor between 'reincarnation' and 'mind uploading'. With mind uploading you need to do something extra, do a brain scan, upload it into a computer, run the computer. In a large enough reality, the existence of other computers already running exact copies of your brain state when you die is implicitly assumed to exist within that infinite reality. Thus you get "uploaded for free". There's nothing supernatural about any of this. It's just what you get when you accept theories from different domains of science (mechanism, materialism, digital brain emulation, neuroscience, etc.) which says we can simulate and recreate the mind, with (cosmology, string theory, quantum mechanics, platonism, etc.) which say reality is very big and probably infinite. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 20:01:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 16:01:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? In-Reply-To: References: <72504e4f-d9b4-fbb7-0d0c-2910cd302b23@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 3:31 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Actually, it turns out that all anthropic reasoning implicitly assumes > open individualism; you can't make probabilistic statements concerning > observers if you reject it.* > I can make operational statements, if I go into a casino and follow probabilistic rules I will lose less money than you will if you don't follow those rules. And if I don't know what you're thinking then saying we have the same mind doesn't mean much. > *Finally, it is also the simplest theory consistent with the facts that > answers survival questions like split brains, faulty transporters, > consciousness mergers, duplications, clones, etc. The psychological and > physiological continuity theories each have their breaking points which > leads to absurdities.* > When technology becomes advanced enough to actually do those things, probably in less than a century and possibly much less, we will see some very odd things radically different from anything we're accustomed to today. If you want to call those strange things absurd that's your option but the point is they would not be paradoxes, they would not produce logical contradictions. They would just be very odd, and the universe doesn't care if we think something is odd or not. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 20:01:57 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 15:01:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 2:23 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John, or anyone: do you think that mathematics is more discovered than > created? > >> >> I think it is discovered, for several reasons. First, Godel proved that it is impossible to define mathematical truth. It is simply there. It is not created, invented, nor defined by mathematicians because it provably cannot be. Second, if we assume mathematics exists independently of the minds of mathematicians or the physical universe, then we can answer the following questions: Leibniz?s question: Why is there something rather than nothing? Einstein?s question: Why is the universe so comprehensible? Wheeler?s question: Why these physical laws and not others? Feynman?s question: Why quantum mechanics? Hawking?s question: What breathes fire into the equations? Third, we find much physical evidence to support this theory. If we starting purely from the assumption that all mathematical objects exist, we can derive the following facts about the world: - Why we find irreducible randomness at the quantum scale (even the existence of a quantum mechanics could have been predicted from first principles, without any experimentation) - Why we find unlimited complexity in the small scales and more the closer we look - Why there is a beginning to time and why we can only trace back so far before the possibilities explode (this align with our present picture of the big bang and inflation) - Why the laws are simple, computable, and probabilistic (it actually explains the effectiveness of occam's razor-- it is a consequence of algorithmic information theory applied to an infinite reality). - Why the laws of physics appear fine-tuned for life (all physical laws and universes are realized) Finally, this is merely a continuation of the trend of science which has been to give ever simpler descriptions which embody ever larger ontologies. Consider how our picture of reality has grown: 1. Our world and the sky above it are all that exist (since ancient times) 2. Our world is one of many worlds orbiting the Sun (Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543) 3. Our sun is one of many stars in this galaxy (Friedrich Bessel in 1838) 4. Our position in time is just one of all equally real points in time (Einstein in 1905) 5. Our galaxy is one of many galaxies (Edwin Hubble in 1920) 6. Our history is just one of many possible histories (Hugh Everett in 1957) 7. The observable universe is a tiny fraction of the whole (Alan Guth in 1980) 8. Our laws are one of 10^500 possible solutions in string theory (Steven Weinberg in 1987) 9. String theory is just one among the set of all valid structures (Max Tegmark in 1996) We get all this explanation, for a theory which is so simple it can be described in one sentence: "All self-consistent mathematical structures exist." Thus it is the pinnacle of Occam's razor. It is a theory that can explain almost everything, while making the fewest possible assumptions. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 20:36:55 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 16:36:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 4:12 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Godel proved that it is impossible to define mathematical truth.* Godel proved there are an infinite number of statements that are true but have no proof; on the bright side there are also an infinite number of true statements that do have proofs. But then a few years later Turing proved there is no general procedure that would always allow you to separate the provable statements from the unprovable sort, no way to separate the false statements from the true statements that have no proof. If the Goldbach Conjecture is one of these, and if it isn't there are an infinite number of similar statements that are, then we will always be looking, and failing, to find a proof to show it is true, and always be looking, and failing, to find a numerical example to show it is false. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 20:41:04 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 16:41:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: In my opinion, I define the soul and the mind differently, and I am not sure if they are the same. The mind: we all know what this means, I think. An organized, conscious thing. I will withhold my views on consciousness because I don't think they are necessarily relevant. Suffice to say that if it can think, it is a mind. I will leave it up to the reader to determine for themselves what thinking is. The soul: this one is tougher. Let me see if I can devise some 'axioms of the soul': 1. Presence: It must exist 1 --> 2. Permanence: It must exist for non-trivial periods of time 3. Integration: Its parts must be part of a clearly defined system with boundaries. 2 + 3 --> 4. Closeness: given a permanence period A to B, the probability that the parts of the system are integrated in the same manner at B as they were at A must be much higher than the probability that they are integrated with foreign parts at B. By this definition, an atom is a soul. Does it HAVE a soul? I am not sure; that is a kinda philosophical monist/dualist question. A solar system is a soul. A molecule is a soul. A body is a soul. What do these things have in common? There is something about angular momentum here. Whether it is spatial or chronological angular momentum. For example, I think something like the Krebs cycle is 'soulish'. Due to this, I don't think I can believe, in good conscience, in transmigration of the soul. In my opinion, souls are rather leaky. Something I do believe in is some kind of archetype-sharing-resonance taking place of transmigration. Sort of like Wheeler's One Electron Universe. The idea is that, for parsimony, things that are formed similarly are the same (at least to their degree of similarity.) So for every archetype within my pervasive, integrated system, I have experienced transmigration from many souls. I guess I believe the universe can't really tell the difference between things that are the same or extremely similar. I believe this is somehow connected to spooky action at a distance, and, if true, would provide some sort of mechanism for many 'supernatural' occurrences--telepathy, ancestral memories, ghostly things, in particular. If telekinesis exists it is probably not by this mechanism. Perhaps if 2 brains across history are very similar, the universe can't quite distinguish the 2, and so their waveforms leak between one another and possibly cause ancestral memories in the newer and premonitions in the older. For ghostly things--these are said to usually be engaging in some kind of repetitive motion: stuck in one place doing one thing. I think it is possible that there is some kind of resonance effect: if you walk up and down the stairs in a similar way every day, perhaps whatever way you are consistently altering the reality field (cellular automaton?) can have some kind of cumulative effect. So even in the future, your shadow may be seen to be engaging in this action. If there is enough resonance to muster your mind, perhaps this being could even do things that were not part of its training, because they have begun to actively think and decide. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 21:30:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 16:30:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I don't understand most of this, but I do understand that you left out most of the mind: the unconscious part. bill w On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 3:46 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In my opinion, I define the soul and the mind differently, and I am not > sure if they are the same. > > The mind: we all know what this means, I think. An organized, conscious > thing. I will withhold my views on consciousness because I don't think > they are necessarily relevant. Suffice to say that if it can think, it is > a mind. I will leave it up to the reader to determine for themselves what > thinking is. > > The soul: this one is tougher. Let me see if I can devise some 'axioms of > the soul': > > 1. Presence: It must exist > 1 --> 2. Permanence: It must exist for non-trivial periods of time > 3. Integration: Its parts must be part of a clearly defined system with > boundaries. > 2 + 3 --> 4. Closeness: given a permanence period A to B, the probability > that the parts of the system are integrated in the same manner at B as they > were at A must be much higher than the probability that they are integrated > with foreign parts at B. > > By this definition, an atom is a soul. Does it HAVE a soul? I am not > sure; that is a kinda philosophical monist/dualist question. A solar > system is a soul. A molecule is a soul. A body is a soul. What do these > things have in common? There is something about angular momentum here. > Whether it is spatial or chronological angular momentum. For example, I > think something like the Krebs cycle is 'soulish'. > > Due to this, I don't think I can believe, in good conscience, in > transmigration of the soul. In my opinion, souls are rather leaky. > Something I do believe in is some kind of archetype-sharing-resonance > taking place of transmigration. Sort of like Wheeler's One Electron > Universe. The idea is that, for parsimony, things that are formed > similarly are the same (at least to their degree of similarity.) So for > every archetype within my pervasive, integrated system, I have experienced > transmigration from many souls. I guess I believe the universe can't > really tell the difference between things that are the same or extremely > similar. I believe this is somehow connected to spooky action at a > distance, and, if true, would provide some sort of mechanism for many > 'supernatural' occurrences--telepathy, ancestral memories, ghostly things, > in particular. If telekinesis exists it is probably not by this mechanism. > > Perhaps if 2 brains across history are very similar, the universe can't > quite distinguish the 2, and so their waveforms leak between one another > and possibly cause ancestral memories in the newer and premonitions in the > older. > > For ghostly things--these are said to usually be engaging in some kind of > repetitive motion: stuck in one place doing one thing. I think it is > possible that there is some kind of resonance effect: if you walk up and > down the stairs in a similar way every day, perhaps whatever way you are > consistently altering the reality field (cellular automaton?) can have some > kind of cumulative effect. So even in the future, your shadow may be seen > to be engaging in this action. If there is enough resonance to muster your > mind, perhaps this being could even do things that were not part of its > training, because they have begun to actively think and decide. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 01:21:53 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 20:21:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Define Transhumanism Message-ID: <0482239D-3D8A-4FEA-97E9-69BD87290E94@gmail.com> PART ZERO: Introduction This is an extremely long email about what Transhumanism is and how well a Mormon might be able to align with the definitions we find. It is split into the following parts: (1) What is autonomy? & Various definitions (2) What is rationality? (3) Principles of Transhumanism per Wikipedia (the most likely resource for people who would join) (4) Principles of Extropianism per Max (5) General overview of Mormon Demographics (6) A well defined Minority of Mormons & how they are Mormon in name only (7) Conclusion Apologies about the length. And the fact I repeat myself... a lot. PART ONE: Autonomy Does Transhumanism require ?autonomy? from religious belief? >the right or condition of self-government. "Tatarstan demanded greater autonomy within the Russian Federation" One could argue that Mormon Transhumanists are autonomous in the sense that the Church and Scriptures make no explicit references to technology. >freedom from external control or influence; independence. "economic autonomy is still a long way off for many women" Sure, Mormons experience external influence, but not in matters pertaining to Transhumanism. If we look at the example sentence, isn?t that misleading? Nearly all people are slaves to wages, but the sentence implies that she controls her own wage slavery rather than being dependent on the goodwill of another wage slave (father, brother, husband, son). In this sense, Mormons are autonomous in the realm of Transhumanism. PART TWO: Rationality Does Transhumanism require ?rationality?? In the sense of being able to use common sense in scientific matters, yes. However religious beliefs do not inherently require the abandonment of rationality, only compartmentalization. If religious beliefs would Barr someone from being meaningfully Tranhumanist, then any person who has anxiety, depression, OCD, phobias, delusions, or hallucinations cannot be meaningfully Transhumanist, and I would argue that my irrational fear of bees does not invalidate me. For that matter I don?t think kinks are ?rational?, but I don?t think that invalidates transhumanist commitment either. PART THREE : Principles of Transhumanism What are the principles of Transhumanism, exactly? Do we mean this? https://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/Transhumanist_Principles.html For Max?s Extropian Principles, as outlined by himself, see part 4. Or what I found on Wikipedia: (1) Proactionary Principle (maybe can can comment if I?m misunderstanding) > People?s freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even critical, to humanity. This implies several imperatives when restrictive measures are proposed: Assess risks and opportunities according to available science, not popular perception. Account for both the costs of the restrictions themselves, and those of opportunities foregone. Favor measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of impacts, and that have a high expectation value. Protect people?s freedom to experiment, innovate, and progress. Mormons are not bound by almost any dogma in regards to science and technology, though ?designer babies? might be considered controversial. They are free to use science as much as anyone else to evaluate ideas and technology. I have met exactly 2 Mormon creationists, but I feel perhaps that might be more common in Utah Mormonism. However the Church usually does not take a hard stance on this, and prefers to focus on other things. In general, most Mormons are pretty compartmentalized and operate on a surprisingly secular framework outside of the religious context, likely due to college education. (2) Embrace of singularity There?s no reason to believe Mormons would oppose this. (3) Embrace technology Mormons are constantly urged by Church authorities to adopt and utilize new technologies, especially information technology. (4) Avoiding global annihilation and extermination of the species Mormons, in general, are split on the topic of environmentalism, but they also don?t have an Armageddon fetish like Jehovah?s Witnesses or most Evangelicals. (5) Immortality, Life Extension, and Rejuvenation I cannot think of any Mormon theology which would make this impossible or distasteful. PART FOUR: Extropian Principles (Per Max) (1) Perpetual Progress > Extropy means seeking more intelligence, wisdom, and effectiveness ?Seek not for riches but for wisdom? ? there is more to this quote but often this is the only part that is used > open-ended lifespan See above > removal of political, cultural, biological, and psychological limits to continuing development Other than ?designer babies? most scientific development is generally neutral or good in the Mormon context. (2) Self-Transformation > Extropy means affirming continual ethical, intellectual, and physical self-improvement Nearly any Mormon would agree to this > through critical and creative thinking, perpetual learning, personal responsibility, proactivity, and experimentation Mormons are perfectly capable of all of these. High on personal responsibility, low on experimentation. > Using technology ? in the widest sense to seek physiological and neurological augmentation along with emotional and psychological refinement. You?re not gonna hear Mormons reject any medical science (such as Jehovah?s Witnesses with blood transfusion) with the exception of ?designer babies?, and perhaps Gender reassignment surgery (Though you could make a strong theological case for it as well). There are maybe anti-vaxxers though in my experience I?ve never met one. Utah Mormons maybe. No one is going to say that neural interface prosthetics are bad, or cochlear implants are satanic. You?re not gonna hear Mormons reject computers, the internet, or VR. (3) Practical Optimism > Extropy means fueling action with positive expectations ? individuals and organizations being tirelessly proactive. Adopting a rational, action-based optimism or "proaction", in place of both blind faith and stagnant pessimism. Mormonism?s Relief society is notoriously optimistic, practical, and proactive. They sold the US government 200K bushels of wheat to combat hunger in 1918. They did the same for the San Francisco earthquake. They used sales of the wheat through the years to fund maternity hospitals. Many Female Mormon Pioneers were suffragists. Utah was among the first states to give women the right to vote. They sent many women to medical schools and funded their educations in the late 1800s, and were among the first women in the US to be trained as doctors, they then organized a program to have these doctors train female nurses. They ran the first hospital in the US with an all-female board of directors. They started one of the first female produced newspapers which often covered suffragette issues, and information on local medical classes. They spearheaded the US Geneological Movement, and the information they collect is available to everyone. This information might one day prove useful to scientists as well. The relief society created programs to eliminate poverty, and sent women to get degrees in social work (one of the most common majors for Mormon women today), then created monthly classes for them to teach. Source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/2014/3/13/20537258/10-accomplishments-of-the-relief-society Mormon women are excellent at community organizing, have high rates of stay at home wives and low rates of homeschooling while having the income to maintain a two car family, allowing Mormon women the ability to organize large scale social works projects. (4) Intelligent Technology > Extropy means designing and managing technologies not as ends in themselves but as effective means for improving life. Applying science and technology creatively and courageously to transcend "natural" but harmful, confining qualities derived from our biological heritage, culture, and environment. Well explained before this point. (5) Open Society - information and democracy > Extropy means supporting social orders that foster freedom of communication, freedom of action, experimentation, innovation, questioning, and learning. Mormons are not compelled in any real sense or cut off from information. >Opposing authoritarian social control and unnecessary hierarchy and Big fail here >favoring the rule of law Religious obligation to follow the law. >and decentralization of power and responsibility. Power is centralized but responsibility is personal. Many Mormons take initiative. (6) Self-Direction > Extropy means valuing independent thinking, individual freedom, personal responsibility, self-direction, self-respect, and a parallel respect for others. Yes, and no. Independent thinking on non-Church matters is perfectly fine. Self-direction in non-Church matters is again fine. Yes to the rest. (7) Rational Thinking > Extropy means favoring reason over blind faith and questioning over dogma. It means understanding, experimenting, learning, challenging, and innovating rather than clinging to beliefs. In non-Church contexts, this is fine. But including the church context is mixed. See part 6 PART FIVE: Mormons general Additionally, Mormons are an important demographic to win over. (Demographics of Mormonism: https://www.pewforum.org/2009/07/24/a-portrait-of-mormons-in-the-us/ ) They have higher birthdate, and thus are disproportionately young people, 66% under 50 (National average 59%), and 25% under 30 (national 20%). Therefore, it is an important religious demographic (about 2% of the US population) which is not opposed to Transhumanism. Mormons are more likely to graduate high school (91% versus avg of 86%), more likely to attend college (61% vs 50%) and slightly more likely to graduate (28% vs 26%). They also have a higher than average income with 54% having an income over 50K, compared to the average of 48%. This income, while partially offset by the cost of raising children, allows them more ability to donate to the sciences. 6% of Mormons say they believe in an impersonal God, which would allow this demographic to focus on more scientific pursuits than religious ones. Despite their belief that the Bible is the ?Word of God?, compared to many other Christian groups are more likely to consider it non-literal. PART SIX: A Mormon Transhumanist Minority. Throughout the data, we see a small minority: 4% that say they don?t take their religion seriously, 6% that believe in an impersonal god, 4% that reject miracles, 8% that say they attend church seldom or never, 4% that say the Bible is written by men, 13% who never read the Bible, 8% pray once per month or less, 5% say they have never had a prayer answered, 24% say they never ?share? their faith, 4% don?t think their religion leads to eternal life, 3% believe the Church should fully embrace modern practices, 10% are ?liberal? (versus conservative or moderate), 8% believe abortion should be legal in all cases. If a Mormon says: God is impersonal and I don?t talk to him ? if I did pray to him he doesn?t answer prayers and miracles don?t exist; my religion isn?t that important to me, doesn?t lead to eternal life, and is based on a man made book that shouldn?t be taken literally, so I don?t read it and I don?t attend Church or tell people about my religion; and I fully believe we should adopt modern values (whatever we are considering those to be) ? are they Mormon in a meaningful sense? Are their thoughts incompatible with reason and science, with transhumanism? This would be probably 4% of the Mormon Church in the US ? about 250,000 people. Why should we distrust them? The only thing you disagree on is their cultural artifact of identification with the label ?Mormon?. PART SEVEN: In Conclusion Despite the appearance, I?m not actually stanning the Mormon Church. What I am suggesting is that if as much as 4% of Mormons in the US, a quarter of a MILLION people could potentially embrace a transhumanist viewpoint amid a worsening anti-intellectual climate, that we shouldn?t write it off or shun it automatically. Given the state of affairs, the ideology needs as much help as it can get, people who will defend and support funding as well as those actually contributing the labor hours to that effort. People don?t need to be perfect to be helpful. And how many Extropian and transhumanist groups are there? Via self identification, how many people would say they are transhumanist or Extropian? How many people would even be familiar with these names? I think it?s wrong to dismiss it out of hand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jose.cordeiro at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 01:58:47 2020 From: jose.cordeiro at gmail.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 01:58:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Define Transhumanism In-Reply-To: <0482239D-3D8A-4FEA-97E9-69BD87290E94@gmail.com> References: <0482239D-3D8A-4FEA-97E9-69BD87290E94@gmail.com> Message-ID: <785782586.688472.1587952727188@mail.yahoo.com> Fyi... Enviado desde Yahoo Mail con Android El lun., abr. 27, 2020 a las 3:23 a. m., SR Ballard via extropy-chat escribi?: PART ZERO: Introduction This is an extremely long email about what Transhumanism is and how well a Mormon might be able to align with the definitions we find. It is split into the following parts: (1) What is autonomy? & Various definitions(2) What is rationality?(3) Principles of Transhumanism per Wikipedia (the most likely resource for people who would join)?(4) Principles of Extropianism per Max(5) General overview of Mormon Demographics(6) A well defined Minority of Mormons & how they are Mormon in name only(7) Conclusion Apologies about the length. And the fact I repeat myself... a lot.? PART ONE: Autonomy Does Transhumanism require ?autonomy? from religious belief? >the right or condition of self-government.?"Tatarstan demanded greater autonomy within the Russian Federation" One could argue that Mormon Transhumanists are autonomous in the sense that the Church and Scriptures make no explicit references to technology. >freedom from external control or influence; independence.?"economic autonomy is still a long way off for many women" Sure, Mormons experience external influence, but not in matters pertaining to Transhumanism. If we look at the example sentence, isn?t that misleading? Nearly all people are slaves to wages, but the sentence implies that she controls her own wage slavery rather than being dependent on the goodwill of another wage slave (father, brother, husband, son). In this sense, Mormons are autonomous in the realm of Transhumanism. PART TWO: Rationality Does Transhumanism require ?rationality?? In the sense of being able to use common sense in scientific matters, yes.? However religious beliefs do not inherently require the abandonment of rationality, only compartmentalization. If religious beliefs would Barr someone from being meaningfully Tranhumanist, then any person who has anxiety, depression, OCD, phobias, delusions, or hallucinations cannot be meaningfully Transhumanist, and I would argue that my irrational fear of bees does not invalidate me. For that matter I don?t think kinks are ?rational?, but I don?t think that invalidates transhumanist commitment either.? PART THREE : Principles of Transhumanism What are the principles of Transhumanism, exactly?? Do we mean this??https://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/Transhumanist_Principles.html For Max?s Extropian Principles, as outlined by himself, see part 4. Or what I found on Wikipedia: (1) ?Proactionary Principle (maybe can can comment if I?m misunderstanding)? >?People?s freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even critical, to humanity. This implies several imperatives when restrictive measures are proposed: Assess risks and opportunities according to available science, not popular perception. Account for both the costs of the restrictions themselves, and those of opportunities foregone. Favor measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of impacts, and that have a high expectation value. Protect people?s freedom to experiment, innovate, and progress. Mormons are not bound by almost any dogma in regards to science and technology, though ?designer babies? might be considered controversial. They are free to use science as much as anyone else to evaluate ideas and technology.? I have met exactly 2 Mormon creationists, but I feel perhaps that might be more common in Utah Mormonism. However the Church usually does not take a hard stance on this, and prefers to focus on other things. In general, most Mormons are pretty compartmentalized and operate on a surprisingly secular framework outside of the religious context, likely due to college education.? (2) Embrace of singularity There?s no reason to believe Mormons would oppose this. (3) Embrace technology Mormons are constantly urged by Church authorities to adopt and utilize new technologies, especially information technology. (4) Avoiding global annihilation and extermination of the species Mormons, in general, are split on the topic of environmentalism, but they also don?t have an Armageddon fetish like Jehovah?s Witnesses or most Evangelicals.? (5) Immortality, Life Extension, and Rejuvenation I cannot think of any Mormon theology which would make this impossible or distasteful.? PART FOUR: Extropian Principles (Per Max) (1)?Perpetual Progress >?Extropy means seeking more intelligence, wisdom, and effectiveness ?Seek not for riches but for wisdom? ? there is more to this quote but often this is the only part that is used >?open-ended lifespan See above >?removal of political, cultural, biological, and psychological limits to continuing development Other than ?designer babies? most scientific development is generally neutral or good in the Mormon context.? (2)?Self-Transformation >?Extropy means affirming continual ethical, intellectual, and physical self-improvement Nearly any Mormon would agree to this >?through critical and creative thinking, perpetual learning, personal responsibility, proactivity, and experimentation Mormons are perfectly capable of all of these. High on personal responsibility, low on experimentation. >?Using technology ? in the widest sense to seek physiological and neurological augmentation along with emotional and psychological refinement. You?re not gonna hear Mormons reject any medical science (such as Jehovah?s Witnesses with blood transfusion) with the exception of ?designer babies?, and perhaps Gender reassignment surgery (Though you could make a strong theological case for it as well).? There are maybe anti-vaxxers though in my experience I?ve never met one. Utah Mormons maybe. No one is going to say that neural interface prosthetics are bad, or cochlear implants are satanic.? You?re not gonna hear Mormons reject computers, the internet, or VR.? (3) Practical Optimism >?Extropy means fueling action with positive expectations ? individuals and organizations being tirelessly proactive. Adopting a rational, action-based optimism or "proaction", in place of both blind faith and stagnant pessimism. Mormonism?s Relief society is notoriously optimistic, practical, and proactive.? They sold the US government 200K bushels of wheat to combat hunger in 1918.? They did the same for the San Francisco earthquake.? They used sales of the wheat through the years to fund maternity hospitals.? Many Female Mormon Pioneers were suffragists. Utah was among the first states to give women the right to vote.? They sent many women to medical schools and funded their educations in the late 1800s, and were among the first women in the US to be trained as doctors, they then organized a program to have these doctors train female nurses. They ran the first hospital in the US with an all-female board of directors.? They started one of the first female produced newspapers which often covered suffragette issues, and information on local medical classes.? They spearheaded the US Geneological Movement, and the information they collect is available to everyone. This information might one day prove useful to scientists as well.? The relief society created programs to eliminate poverty, and sent women to get degrees in social work (one of the most common majors for Mormon women today), then created monthly classes for them to teach.? Source:?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/2014/3/13/20537258/10-accomplishments-of-the-relief-society Mormon women are excellent at community organizing, have high rates of stay at home wives and low rates of homeschooling while having the income to maintain a two car family, allowing Mormon women the ability to organize large scale social works projects.? (4)?Intelligent Technology >?Extropy means designing and managing technologies not as ends in themselves but as effective means for improving life. Applying science and technology creatively and courageously to transcend "natural" but harmful, confining qualities derived from our biological heritage, culture, and environment. Well explained before this point.? (5) Open Society - information and democracy >?Extropy means supporting social orders that foster freedom of communication, freedom of action, experimentation, innovation, questioning, and learning.? Mormons are not compelled in any real sense or cut off from information. >Opposing authoritarian social control and unnecessary hierarchy and? Big fail here >favoring the rule of law? Religious obligation to follow the law. >and decentralization of power and responsibility.? Power is centralized but responsibility is personal. Many Mormons take initiative. (6)?Self-Direction >?Extropy means valuing independent thinking, individual freedom, personal responsibility, self-direction, self-respect, and a parallel respect for others. Yes, and no. ?Independent thinking on non-Church matters is perfectly fine. Self-direction in non-Church matters is again fine.? Yes to the rest.? (7)?Rational Thinking >?Extropy means favoring reason over blind faith and questioning over dogma. It means understanding, experimenting, learning, challenging, and innovating rather than clinging to beliefs. In non-Church contexts, this is fine. But including the church context is mixed. See part 6 PART FIVE: Mormons general Additionally, Mormons are an important demographic to win over. (Demographics of Mormonism:?https://www.pewforum.org/2009/07/24/a-portrait-of-mormons-in-the-us/?) They have higher birthdate, and thus are disproportionately young people, 66% under 50 (National average 59%), and 25% under 30 (national 20%). Therefore, it is an important religious demographic (about 2% of the US population) which is not opposed to Transhumanism.? Mormons are more likely to graduate high school (91% versus avg of 86%), more likely to attend college (61% vs 50%) and slightly more likely to graduate (28% vs 26%).? They also have a higher than average income with 54% having an income over 50K, compared to the average of 48%. This income, while partially offset by the cost of raising children, allows them more ability to donate to the sciences.? 6% of Mormons say they believe in an impersonal God, which would allow this demographic to focus on more scientific pursuits than religious ones.? Despite their belief that the Bible is the ?Word of God?, compared to many other Christian groups are more likely to consider it non-literal.? PART SIX: A Mormon Transhumanist Minority. Throughout the data, we see a small minority: 4% that say they don?t take their religion seriously, 6% that believe in an impersonal god, 4% that reject miracles, 8% that say they attend church seldom or never, 4% that say the Bible is written by men, 13% who never read the Bible, 8% pray once per month or less, 5% say they have never had a prayer answered, 24% say they never ?share? their faith, 4% don?t think their religion leads to eternal life, 3% believe the Church should fully embrace modern practices, 10% are ?liberal? (versus conservative or moderate), 8% believe abortion should be legal in all cases.? If a Mormon says: God is impersonal and I don?t talk to him ? if I did pray to him he doesn?t answer prayers and miracles don?t exist; my religion isn?t that important to me, doesn?t lead to eternal life, and is based on a man made book that shouldn?t be taken literally, so I don?t read it and I don?t attend Church or tell people about my religion; and I fully believe we should adopt modern values (whatever we are considering those to be) ? are they Mormon in a meaningful sense? Are their thoughts incompatible with reason and science, with transhumanism?? This would be probably 4% of the Mormon Church in the US ? about 250,000 people. Why should we distrust them? The only thing you disagree on is their cultural artifact of identification with the label ?Mormon?.? PART SEVEN: In Conclusion? Despite the appearance, I?m not actually stanning the Mormon Church. What I am suggesting is that if as much as 4% of Mormons in the US, a quarter of a MILLION people could potentially embrace a transhumanist viewpoint amid a worsening anti-intellectual climate, that we shouldn?t write it off or shun it automatically.? Given the state of affairs, the ideology needs as much help as it can get, people who will defend and support funding as well as those actually contributing the labor hours to that effort.? People don?t need to be perfect to be helpful.? And how many Extropian and transhumanist groups are there? Via self identification, how many people would say they are transhumanist or Extropian? How many people would even be familiar with these names?? I think it?s wrong to dismiss it out of hand.? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Untitled URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 09:44:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 05:44:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 4:46 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> In my opinion, I define the soul and the mind differently, and I am not > sure if they are the same.The mind: we all know what this means, I think. > An organized, conscious thing.* And you thought that with your mind. > *> **The soul: this one is tougher. Let me see if I can devise some > 'axioms of the soul':* > *1. Presence: It must exist* > *1 --> 2. Permanence: It must exist for non-trivial periods of time* > The same is true for mind, and for anything of practical importance. > *> 3. Integration: Its parts must be part of a clearly defined system with > boundaries. * > That is also true for mind, and mind is what a brain does, so the amount of integration is determined by the number of connections between the parts of the brain and the amount of time it takes for a signal to travel from one part of the brain to another. And that's where this "we're all part of one mind" stuff falls apart. *> 2 + 3 --> 4. Closeness: given a permanence period A to B, the > probability that the parts of the system are integrated in the same manner > at B as they were at A must be much higher than the probability that they > are integrated with foreign parts at B.* > I think you're saying distant parts must have less influence than nearby parts, but that is not always true for computers or for biological brains. Sometimes the information a part needs to complete a calculation is on the other side of the brain; this slows things down but can't always be avoided because you can't always predict what information you'll need to complete a calculation before you've finished the calculation. > *By this definition, an atom is a soul. * > Then it's a bad definition. Meaning needs contrast, everything having a soul is equivalent to nothing having a soul. *> If telekinesis exists ...* > it would have been proven to everybody's satisfaction centuries if not millennia ago. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 13:21:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 08:21:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: So then, 'everybody has a house' is equivalent to 'nobody has a house'. ?? bill w On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:47 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 4:46 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *> In my opinion, I define the soul and the mind differently, and I am >> not sure if they are the same.The mind: we all know what this means, I >> think. An organized, conscious thing.* > > > And you thought that with your mind. > > >> *> **The soul: this one is tougher. Let me see if I can devise some >> 'axioms of the soul':* >> *1. Presence: It must exist* >> *1 --> 2. Permanence: It must exist for non-trivial periods of time* >> > > The same is true for mind, and for anything of practical importance. > > >> *> 3. Integration: Its parts must be part of a clearly defined system >> with boundaries. * >> > > That is also true for mind, and mind is what a brain does, so the amount > of integration is determined by the number of connections between the parts > of the brain and the amount of time it takes for a signal to travel from > one part of the brain to another. And that's where this "we're all part of > one mind" stuff falls apart. > > *> 2 + 3 --> 4. Closeness: given a permanence period A to B, the >> probability that the parts of the system are integrated in the same manner >> at B as they were at A must be much higher than the probability that they >> are integrated with foreign parts at B.* >> > > I think you're saying distant parts must have less influence than nearby > parts, but that is not always true for computers or for biological brains. > Sometimes the information a part needs to complete a calculation is on the > other side of the brain; this slows things down but can't always be avoided > because you can't always predict what information you'll need to complete a > calculation before you've finished the calculation. > > > *By this definition, an atom is a soul. * >> > > Then it's a bad definition. Meaning needs contrast, everything having a > soul is equivalent to nothing having a soul. > > *> If telekinesis exists ...* >> > > it would have been proven to everybody's satisfaction centuries if not > millennia ago. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 14:02:16 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 10:02:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: John--just because most things we know about are soulish does not mean that everything is. I don't think the CMBR is necessarily soulish. It also comes in degrees. A single atom bopping about is soulish on the atom level but not on a higher level of abstraction, as compared to a molecule. Again, I think souls are 'leaky' and I don't think things quite 'have' souls. If it were black and white, sure, your argument against mine might hold weight. But for example it's like saying "everything has mass or energy"--doesn't mean they are all the same and that the concept is invalid. The contrast is within degrees of the descriptor term itself. On your brain idea: would you still discount the fact that that foreign part had less influence than the closer parts? I also make no mention of distance, as it is relative. However, you say "sometimes", that distant part (let's say nodally distant to distinguish from metric distance) is used for the computation, well I am comparing that to parts that are *always* used for the computation. Like I said, leaky and ill-defined, and I have had numerous disagreements with those who believe in heaven/hell or transmigration of the soul because I haven't found a satisfactorily rational way that there could possibly be some kind of lossless translation of soul from 'being' to 'being'--whatever the hell they are. Let's not even use the word 'soul'--is 'system' a better word? Clearly an atom has something different about it than a mess of subatomic particles reeling to and fro. And similarly a solar system different from the detritus of a supernova. On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 9:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So then, 'everybody has a house' is equivalent to 'nobody has a house'. > ?? bill w > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:47 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 4:46 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >>> *> In my opinion, I define the soul and the mind differently, and I am >>> not sure if they are the same.The mind: we all know what this means, I >>> think. An organized, conscious thing.* >> >> >> And you thought that with your mind. >> >> >>> *> **The soul: this one is tougher. Let me see if I can devise some >>> 'axioms of the soul':* >>> *1. Presence: It must exist* >>> *1 --> 2. Permanence: It must exist for non-trivial periods of time* >>> >> >> The same is true for mind, and for anything of practical importance. >> >> >>> *> 3. Integration: Its parts must be part of a clearly defined system >>> with boundaries. * >>> >> >> That is also true for mind, and mind is what a brain does, so the amount >> of integration is determined by the number of connections between the parts >> of the brain and the amount of time it takes for a signal to travel from >> one part of the brain to another. And that's where this "we're all part of >> one mind" stuff falls apart. >> >> *> 2 + 3 --> 4. Closeness: given a permanence period A to B, the >>> probability that the parts of the system are integrated in the same manner >>> at B as they were at A must be much higher than the probability that they >>> are integrated with foreign parts at B.* >>> >> >> I think you're saying distant parts must have less influence than nearby >> parts, but that is not always true for computers or for biological brains. >> Sometimes the information a part needs to complete a calculation is on the >> other side of the brain; this slows things down but can't always be avoided >> because you can't always predict what information you'll need to complete a >> calculation before you've finished the calculation. >> >> > *By this definition, an atom is a soul. * >>> >> >> Then it's a bad definition. Meaning needs contrast, everything having a >> soul is equivalent to nothing having a soul. >> >> *> If telekinesis exists ...* >>> >> >> it would have been proven to everybody's satisfaction centuries if not >> millennia ago. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 14:08:55 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 09:08:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Define Transhumanism In-Reply-To: <0482239D-3D8A-4FEA-97E9-69BD87290E94@gmail.com> References: <0482239D-3D8A-4FEA-97E9-69BD87290E94@gmail.com> Message-ID: able to use common sense in scientific matters SR Ballard Good. I have always wanted a good definition of 'common sense'. Maybe you can supply one. Everybody knows what it is, but no one seems to be able to define it. bill w On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 8:25 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > PART ZERO: Introduction > > This is an extremely long email about what Transhumanism is and how well a > Mormon might be able to align with the definitions we find. It is split > into the following parts: > > (1) What is autonomy? & Various definitions > (2) What is rationality? > (3) Principles of Transhumanism per Wikipedia (the most likely resource > for people who would join) > (4) Principles of Extropianism per Max > (5) General overview of Mormon Demographics > (6) A well defined Minority of Mormons & how they are Mormon in name only > (7) Conclusion > > Apologies about the length. And the fact I repeat myself... a lot. > > PART ONE: Autonomy > > Does Transhumanism require ?autonomy? from religious belief? > > >the right or condition of self-government. "Tatarstan demanded greater > autonomy within the Russian Federation" > > One could argue that Mormon Transhumanists are autonomous in the sense > that the Church and Scriptures make no explicit references to technology. > > >freedom from external control or influence; independence. "economic > autonomy is still a long way off for many women" > > Sure, Mormons experience external influence, but not in matters pertaining > to Transhumanism. If we look at the example sentence, isn?t that > misleading? Nearly all people are slaves to wages, but the sentence implies > that she controls her own wage slavery rather than being dependent on the > goodwill of another wage slave (father, brother, husband, son). In this > sense, Mormons are autonomous in the realm of Transhumanism. > > PART TWO: Rationality > > Does Transhumanism require ?rationality?? > > In the sense of being able to use common sense in scientific matters, yes. > > However religious beliefs do not inherently require the abandonment of > rationality, only compartmentalization. If religious beliefs would Barr > someone from being meaningfully Tranhumanist, then any person who has > anxiety, depression, OCD, phobias, delusions, or hallucinations cannot be > meaningfully Transhumanist, and I would argue that my irrational fear of > bees does not invalidate me. For that matter I don?t think kinks are > ?rational?, but I don?t think that invalidates transhumanist commitment > either. > > PART THREE : Principles of Transhumanism > > What are the principles of Transhumanism, exactly? > > Do we mean this? > https://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/Transhumanist_Principles.html > > For Max?s *Extropian* Principles, as outlined by himself, see part 4. > > Or what I found on Wikipedia: > > (1) Proactionary Principle (maybe can can comment if I?m > misunderstanding) > > > People?s freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even > critical, to humanity. This implies several imperatives when restrictive > measures are proposed: Assess risks and opportunities according to > available science, not popular perception. Account for both the costs of > the restrictions themselves, and those of opportunities foregone. Favor > measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of > impacts, and that have a high expectation value. Protect people?s freedom > to experiment, innovate, and progress. > > Mormons are not bound by almost any dogma in regards to science and > technology, though ?designer babies? might be considered controversial. > They are free to use science as much as anyone else to evaluate ideas and > technology. > > I have met exactly 2 Mormon creationists, but I feel perhaps that might be > more common in Utah Mormonism. However the Church usually does not take a > hard stance on this, and prefers to focus on other things. In general, most > Mormons are pretty compartmentalized and operate on a surprisingly secular > framework outside of the religious context, likely due to college > education. > > (2) Embrace of singularity > > There?s no reason to believe Mormons would oppose this. > > (3) Embrace technology > > Mormons are constantly urged by Church authorities to adopt and utilize > new technologies, especially information technology. > > (4) Avoiding global annihilation and extermination of the species > > Mormons, in general, are split on the topic of environmentalism, but they > also don?t have an Armageddon fetish like Jehovah?s Witnesses or most > Evangelicals. > > (5) Immortality, Life Extension, and Rejuvenation > > I cannot think of any Mormon theology which would make this impossible or > distasteful. > > PART FOUR: Extropian Principles (Per Max) > > (1) Perpetual Progress > > > Extropy means seeking more intelligence, wisdom, and effectiveness > > ?Seek not for riches but for wisdom? ? there is more to this quote but > often this is the only part that is used > > > open-ended lifespan > > See above > > > removal of political, cultural, biological, and psychological limits to > continuing development > > Other than ?designer babies? most scientific development is generally > neutral or good in the Mormon context. > > (2) Self-Transformation > > > Extropy means affirming continual ethical, intellectual, and physical > self-improvement > > Nearly any Mormon would agree to this > > > through critical and creative thinking, perpetual learning, personal > responsibility, proactivity, and experimentation > > Mormons are perfectly capable of all of these. High on personal > responsibility, low on experimentation. > > > > Using technology ? in the widest sense to seek physiological and > neurological augmentation along with emotional and psychological refinement. > > You?re not gonna hear Mormons reject any medical science (such as > Jehovah?s Witnesses with blood transfusion) with the exception of ?designer > babies?, and perhaps Gender reassignment surgery (Though you could make a > strong theological case for it as well). > > There are maybe anti-vaxxers though in my experience I?ve never met one. > Utah Mormons maybe. > > No one is going to say that neural interface prosthetics are bad, or > cochlear implants are satanic. > > You?re not gonna hear Mormons reject computers, the internet, or VR. > > (3) Practical Optimism > > > Extropy means fueling action with positive expectations ? individuals > and organizations being tirelessly proactive. Adopting a rational, > action-based optimism or "proaction", in place of both blind faith and > stagnant pessimism. > > Mormonism?s Relief society is notoriously optimistic, practical, and > proactive. > > They sold the US government 200K bushels of wheat to combat hunger in > 1918. > > They did the same for the San Francisco earthquake. > > They used sales of the wheat through the years to fund maternity > hospitals. > > Many Female Mormon Pioneers were suffragists. Utah was among the first > states to give women the right to vote. > > They sent many women to medical schools and funded their educations in the > late 1800s, and were among the first women in the US to be trained as > doctors, they then organized a program to have these doctors train female > nurses. They ran the first hospital in the US with an all-female board of > directors. > > They started one of the first female produced newspapers which often > covered suffragette issues, and information on local medical classes. > > They spearheaded the US Geneological Movement, and the information they > collect is available to everyone. This information might one day prove > useful to scientists as well. > > The relief society created programs to eliminate poverty, and sent women > to get degrees in social work (one of the most common majors for Mormon > women today), then created monthly classes for them to teach. > > Source: > https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/2014/3/13/20537258/10-accomplishments-of-the-relief-society > > Mormon women are excellent at community organizing, have high rates of > stay at home wives and low rates of homeschooling while having the income > to maintain a two car family, allowing Mormon women the ability to organize > large scale social works projects. > > (4) Intelligent Technology > > > Extropy means designing and managing technologies not as ends in > themselves but as effective means for improving life. Applying science and > technology creatively and courageously to transcend "natural" but harmful, > confining qualities derived from our biological heritage, culture, and > environment. > > Well explained before this point. > > (5) Open Society - information and democracy > > > Extropy means supporting social orders that foster freedom of > communication, freedom of action, experimentation, innovation, questioning, > and learning. > > Mormons are not compelled in any real sense or cut off from information. > > >Opposing authoritarian social control and unnecessary hierarchy and > > Big fail here > > >favoring the rule of law > > Religious obligation to follow the law. > > >and decentralization of power and responsibility. > > Power is centralized but responsibility is personal. Many Mormons take > initiative. > > (6) Self-Direction > > > Extropy means valuing independent thinking, individual freedom, > personal responsibility, self-direction, self-respect, and a parallel > respect for others. > > Yes, and no. > > Independent thinking on non-Church matters is perfectly fine. > Self-direction in non-Church matters is again fine. > > Yes to the rest. > > (7) Rational Thinking > > > Extropy means favoring reason over blind faith and questioning over > dogma. It means understanding, experimenting, learning, challenging, and > innovating rather than clinging to beliefs. > > In non-Church contexts, this is fine. But including the church context is > mixed. See part 6 > > PART FIVE: Mormons general > > Additionally, Mormons are an important demographic to win over. > (Demographics of Mormonism: > https://www.pewforum.org/2009/07/24/a-portrait-of-mormons-in-the-us/ ) > > They have higher birthdate, and thus are disproportionately young people, > 66% under 50 (National average 59%), and 25% under 30 (national 20%). > Therefore, it is an important religious demographic (about 2% of the US > population) which is not opposed to Transhumanism. > > Mormons are more likely to graduate high school (91% versus avg of 86%), > more likely to attend college (61% vs 50%) and slightly more likely to > graduate (28% vs 26%). > > They also have a higher than average income with 54% having an income over > 50K, compared to the average of 48%. This income, while partially offset by > the cost of raising children, allows them more ability to donate to the > sciences. > > 6% of Mormons say they believe in an impersonal God, which would allow > this demographic to focus on more scientific pursuits than religious ones. > > Despite their belief that the Bible is the ?Word of God?, compared to many > other Christian groups are more likely to consider it non-literal. > > PART SIX: A Mormon Transhumanist Minority. > > Throughout the data, we see a small minority: 4% that say they don?t take > their religion seriously, 6% that believe in an impersonal god, 4% that > reject miracles, 8% that say they attend church seldom or never, 4% that > say the Bible is written by men, 13% who never read the Bible, 8% pray once > per month or less, 5% say they have never had a prayer answered, 24% say > they never ?share? their faith, 4% don?t think their religion leads to > eternal life, 3% believe the Church should fully embrace modern practices, > 10% are ?liberal? (versus conservative or moderate), 8% believe abortion > should be legal in all cases. > > If a Mormon says: God is impersonal and I don?t talk to him ? if I did > pray to him he doesn?t answer prayers and miracles don?t exist; my religion > isn?t that important to me, doesn?t lead to eternal life, and is based on a > man made book that shouldn?t be taken literally, so I don?t read it and I > don?t attend Church or tell people about my religion; and I fully believe > we should adopt modern values (whatever we are considering those to be) ? > are they Mormon in a meaningful sense? Are their thoughts incompatible with > reason and science, with transhumanism? > > This would be probably 4% of the Mormon Church in the US ? about 250,000 > people. Why should we distrust them? The only thing you disagree on is > their cultural artifact of identification with the label ?Mormon?. > > PART SEVEN: In Conclusion > > Despite the appearance, I?m not actually stanning the Mormon Church. What > I am suggesting is that if as much as 4% of Mormons in the US, a quarter of > a MILLION people could potentially embrace a transhumanist viewpoint amid a > worsening anti-intellectual climate, that we shouldn?t write it off or shun > it automatically. > > Given the state of affairs, the ideology needs as much help as it can get, > people who will defend and support funding as well as those actually > contributing the labor hours to that effort. > > People don?t need to be perfect to be helpful. > > And how many Extropian and transhumanist groups are there? Via self > identification, how many people would say they are transhumanist or > Extropian? How many people would even be familiar with these names? > > I think it?s wrong to dismiss it out of hand. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 14:29:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 10:29:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 9:24 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: So then, 'everybody has a house' is equivalent to 'nobody has a house'. > ?? bill w > No because, as it is usually defined, the word "house" has a meaning and so there is contrast between those two things. But if the word "house" is redefined in such a way that I have a house, and a dog has a house, and a bacteria has a house, and an atom has a house, and a quark has a house, then the word no longer has any meaning and the world would not be one bit different if nobody had a "house". And if everything has a soul then effectively nothing has a soul. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 14:55:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 10:55:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: <49ee8eae-c239-0a86-5d60-7a798e4c4f59@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 10:05 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John--just because most things we know about are soulish does not mean > that everything is. I don't think the CMBR is necessarily soulish. * > The CMBR is made of photons. Photons are particles. Atoms are particles. If one has a soul why not the other? *> On your brain idea: would you still discount the fact that that foreign > part had less influence than the closer parts? I also make no mention of > distance, as it is relative. However, you say "sometimes", that distant > part (let's say nodally distant to distinguish from metric distance) is > used for the computation, well I am comparing that to parts that are > *always* used for the computation. * > I don't know what you mean by that. The information required to perform a calculation and the part of the brain that contains it depends on the particular calculation you want to perform, it might be right next door or it might be on the other side of the brain. I suppose you could say a NAND circuit (or something equivalent) is needed for every calculation, but they are simple and ubiquitous. > *Let's not even use the word 'soul'--is 'system' a better word? * > Information would be a better word. Science can find no difference between the hydrogen carbon oxygen and nitrogen atoms in your body and the ones in my body, the only difference between you and me is the way those atoms are arranged. And that arrangement can be described with information. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 17:18:31 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 12:18:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Define Transhumanism In-Reply-To: References: <0482239D-3D8A-4FEA-97E9-69BD87290E94@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5AF701B6-1CF0-47BA-94ED-AEC91F821476@gmail.com> Common sense: Calling a horse, a horse. Occam?s Razor. ?When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not Zebras.? Knowing if the statistics actually support your findings, or if you are just manipulating them until they seem to. Identification of realistic dangers (?gee, if this Ebola comes out of the lab with me, that would be bad?) versus unrealistic (?CERN is gonna rip a hole in the fabric of reality, bringing forth primordially terrifying aliens who will devour the human race.?) Not doing things like this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core That is, following established safety protocol. Being able to say, ?I was wrong.? SR Ballard > On Apr 27, 2020, at 9:08 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > able to use common sense in scientific matters SR Ballard > > Good. I have always wanted a good definition of 'common sense'. Maybe you can supply one. Everybody knows what it is, but no one seems to be able to define it. > bill w > >> On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 8:25 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> PART ZERO: Introduction >> >> This is an extremely long email about what Transhumanism is and how well a Mormon might be able to align with the definitions we find. It is split into the following parts: >> >> (1) What is autonomy? & Various definitions >> (2) What is rationality? >> (3) Principles of Transhumanism per Wikipedia (the most likely resource for people who would join) >> (4) Principles of Extropianism per Max >> (5) General overview of Mormon Demographics >> (6) A well defined Minority of Mormons & how they are Mormon in name only >> (7) Conclusion >> >> Apologies about the length. And the fact I repeat myself... a lot. >> >> PART ONE: Autonomy >> >> Does Transhumanism require ?autonomy? from religious belief? >> >> >the right or condition of self-government. "Tatarstan demanded greater autonomy within the Russian Federation" >> >> One could argue that Mormon Transhumanists are autonomous in the sense that the Church and Scriptures make no explicit references to technology. >> >> >freedom from external control or influence; independence. "economic autonomy is still a long way off for many women" >> >> Sure, Mormons experience external influence, but not in matters pertaining to Transhumanism. If we look at the example sentence, isn?t that misleading? Nearly all people are slaves to wages, but the sentence implies that she controls her own wage slavery rather than being dependent on the goodwill of another wage slave (father, brother, husband, son). In this sense, Mormons are autonomous in the realm of Transhumanism. >> >> PART TWO: Rationality >> >> Does Transhumanism require ?rationality?? >> >> In the sense of being able to use common sense in scientific matters, yes. >> >> However religious beliefs do not inherently require the abandonment of rationality, only compartmentalization. If religious beliefs would Barr someone from being meaningfully Tranhumanist, then any person who has anxiety, depression, OCD, phobias, delusions, or hallucinations cannot be meaningfully Transhumanist, and I would argue that my irrational fear of bees does not invalidate me. For that matter I don?t think kinks are ?rational?, but I don?t think that invalidates transhumanist commitment either. >> >> PART THREE : Principles of Transhumanism >> >> What are the principles of Transhumanism, exactly? >> >> Do we mean this? https://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/Transhumanist_Principles.html >> >> For Max?s Extropian Principles, as outlined by himself, see part 4. >> >> Or what I found on Wikipedia: >> >> (1) Proactionary Principle (maybe can can comment if I?m misunderstanding) >> >> > People?s freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even critical, to humanity. This implies several imperatives when restrictive measures are proposed: Assess risks and opportunities according to available science, not popular perception. Account for both the costs of the restrictions themselves, and those of opportunities foregone. Favor measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of impacts, and that have a high expectation value. Protect people?s freedom to experiment, innovate, and progress. >> >> Mormons are not bound by almost any dogma in regards to science and technology, though ?designer babies? might be considered controversial. They are free to use science as much as anyone else to evaluate ideas and technology. >> >> I have met exactly 2 Mormon creationists, but I feel perhaps that might be more common in Utah Mormonism. However the Church usually does not take a hard stance on this, and prefers to focus on other things. In general, most Mormons are pretty compartmentalized and operate on a surprisingly secular framework outside of the religious context, likely due to college education. >> >> (2) Embrace of singularity >> >> There?s no reason to believe Mormons would oppose this. >> >> (3) Embrace technology >> >> Mormons are constantly urged by Church authorities to adopt and utilize new technologies, especially information technology. >> >> (4) Avoiding global annihilation and extermination of the species >> >> Mormons, in general, are split on the topic of environmentalism, but they also don?t have an Armageddon fetish like Jehovah?s Witnesses or most Evangelicals. >> >> (5) Immortality, Life Extension, and Rejuvenation >> >> I cannot think of any Mormon theology which would make this impossible or distasteful. >> >> PART FOUR: Extropian Principles (Per Max) >> >> (1) Perpetual Progress >> >> > Extropy means seeking more intelligence, wisdom, and effectiveness >> >> ?Seek not for riches but for wisdom? ? there is more to this quote but often this is the only part that is used >> >> > open-ended lifespan >> >> See above >> >> > removal of political, cultural, biological, and psychological limits to continuing development >> >> Other than ?designer babies? most scientific development is generally neutral or good in the Mormon context. >> >> (2) Self-Transformation >> >> > Extropy means affirming continual ethical, intellectual, and physical self-improvement >> >> Nearly any Mormon would agree to this >> >> > through critical and creative thinking, perpetual learning, personal responsibility, proactivity, and experimentation >> >> Mormons are perfectly capable of all of these. High on personal responsibility, low on experimentation. >> >> >> > Using technology ? in the widest sense to seek physiological and neurological augmentation along with emotional and psychological refinement. >> >> You?re not gonna hear Mormons reject any medical science (such as Jehovah?s Witnesses with blood transfusion) with the exception of ?designer babies?, and perhaps Gender reassignment surgery (Though you could make a strong theological case for it as well). >> >> There are maybe anti-vaxxers though in my experience I?ve never met one. Utah Mormons maybe. >> >> No one is going to say that neural interface prosthetics are bad, or cochlear implants are satanic. >> >> You?re not gonna hear Mormons reject computers, the internet, or VR. >> >> (3) Practical Optimism >> >> > Extropy means fueling action with positive expectations ? individuals and organizations being tirelessly proactive. Adopting a rational, action-based optimism or "proaction", in place of both blind faith and stagnant pessimism. >> >> Mormonism?s Relief society is notoriously optimistic, practical, and proactive. >> >> They sold the US government 200K bushels of wheat to combat hunger in 1918. >> >> They did the same for the San Francisco earthquake. >> >> They used sales of the wheat through the years to fund maternity hospitals. >> >> Many Female Mormon Pioneers were suffragists. Utah was among the first states to give women the right to vote. >> >> They sent many women to medical schools and funded their educations in the late 1800s, and were among the first women in the US to be trained as doctors, they then organized a program to have these doctors train female nurses. They ran the first hospital in the US with an all-female board of directors. >> >> They started one of the first female produced newspapers which often covered suffragette issues, and information on local medical classes. >> >> They spearheaded the US Geneological Movement, and the information they collect is available to everyone. This information might one day prove useful to scientists as well. >> >> The relief society created programs to eliminate poverty, and sent women to get degrees in social work (one of the most common majors for Mormon women today), then created monthly classes for them to teach. >> >> Source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/2014/3/13/20537258/10-accomplishments-of-the-relief-society >> >> Mormon women are excellent at community organizing, have high rates of stay at home wives and low rates of homeschooling while having the income to maintain a two car family, allowing Mormon women the ability to organize large scale social works projects. >> >> (4) Intelligent Technology >> >> > Extropy means designing and managing technologies not as ends in themselves but as effective means for improving life. Applying science and technology creatively and courageously to transcend "natural" but harmful, confining qualities derived from our biological heritage, culture, and environment. >> >> Well explained before this point. >> >> (5) Open Society - information and democracy >> >> > Extropy means supporting social orders that foster freedom of communication, freedom of action, experimentation, innovation, questioning, and learning. >> >> Mormons are not compelled in any real sense or cut off from information. >> >> >Opposing authoritarian social control and unnecessary hierarchy and >> >> Big fail here >> >> >favoring the rule of law >> >> Religious obligation to follow the law. >> >> >and decentralization of power and responsibility. >> >> Power is centralized but responsibility is personal. Many Mormons take initiative. >> >> (6) Self-Direction >> >> > Extropy means valuing independent thinking, individual freedom, personal responsibility, self-direction, self-respect, and a parallel respect for others. >> >> Yes, and no. >> >> Independent thinking on non-Church matters is perfectly fine. Self-direction in non-Church matters is again fine. >> >> Yes to the rest. >> >> (7) Rational Thinking >> >> > Extropy means favoring reason over blind faith and questioning over dogma. It means understanding, experimenting, learning, challenging, and innovating rather than clinging to beliefs. >> >> In non-Church contexts, this is fine. But including the church context is mixed. See part 6 >> >> PART FIVE: Mormons general >> >> Additionally, Mormons are an important demographic to win over. (Demographics of Mormonism: https://www.pewforum.org/2009/07/24/a-portrait-of-mormons-in-the-us/ ) >> >> They have higher birthdate, and thus are disproportionately young people, 66% under 50 (National average 59%), and 25% under 30 (national 20%). Therefore, it is an important religious demographic (about 2% of the US population) which is not opposed to Transhumanism. >> >> Mormons are more likely to graduate high school (91% versus avg of 86%), more likely to attend college (61% vs 50%) and slightly more likely to graduate (28% vs 26%). >> >> They also have a higher than average income with 54% having an income over 50K, compared to the average of 48%. This income, while partially offset by the cost of raising children, allows them more ability to donate to the sciences. >> >> 6% of Mormons say they believe in an impersonal God, which would allow this demographic to focus on more scientific pursuits than religious ones. >> >> Despite their belief that the Bible is the ?Word of God?, compared to many other Christian groups are more likely to consider it non-literal. >> >> PART SIX: A Mormon Transhumanist Minority. >> >> Throughout the data, we see a small minority: 4% that say they don?t take their religion seriously, 6% that believe in an impersonal god, 4% that reject miracles, 8% that say they attend church seldom or never, 4% that say the Bible is written by men, 13% who never read the Bible, 8% pray once per month or less, 5% say they have never had a prayer answered, 24% say they never ?share? their faith, 4% don?t think their religion leads to eternal life, 3% believe the Church should fully embrace modern practices, 10% are ?liberal? (versus conservative or moderate), 8% believe abortion should be legal in all cases. >> >> If a Mormon says: God is impersonal and I don?t talk to him ? if I did pray to him he doesn?t answer prayers and miracles don?t exist; my religion isn?t that important to me, doesn?t lead to eternal life, and is based on a man made book that shouldn?t be taken literally, so I don?t read it and I don?t attend Church or tell people about my religion; and I fully believe we should adopt modern values (whatever we are considering those to be) ? are they Mormon in a meaningful sense? Are their thoughts incompatible with reason and science, with transhumanism? >> >> This would be probably 4% of the Mormon Church in the US ? about 250,000 people. Why should we distrust them? The only thing you disagree on is their cultural artifact of identification with the label ?Mormon?. >> >> PART SEVEN: In Conclusion >> >> Despite the appearance, I?m not actually stanning the Mormon Church. What I am suggesting is that if as much as 4% of Mormons in the US, a quarter of a MILLION people could potentially embrace a transhumanist viewpoint amid a worsening anti-intellectual climate, that we shouldn?t write it off or shun it automatically. >> >> Given the state of affairs, the ideology needs as much help as it can get, people who will defend and support funding as well as those actually contributing the labor hours to that effort. >> >> People don?t need to be perfect to be helpful. >> >> And how many Extropian and transhumanist groups are there? Via self identification, how many people would say they are transhumanist or Extropian? How many people would even be familiar with these names? >> >> I think it?s wrong to dismiss it out of hand. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 19:25:50 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 15:25:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine Message-ID: A lab in Briton has used genetic engineering to jump ahead of everybody else and has developed a COVID-19 vaccine in record time. It seems safe in humans and has been shown to work with rhesus macaque monkeys. Six of the animals were given one shot of the vaccine and then exposed to very high levels of COVID-19. Animals that didn't get the vaccine consistently got sick, but after 28 days all 6 vaccinated monkeys remained healthy. Last week a Phase 1 clinical trial involving 1,100 humans started and next month a combined Phase 2 and Phase 3 trial involving 6,000 people will start, it will be the first time any COVID-19 vaccine is tested for effectiveness and not just safety. If it works in humans as well as it does in monkeys (a big IF) we could manufacture several million doses of the vaccine by September, much earlier than previously thought. Keep your fingers crossed, I don't believe that superstition helps but they say it works even if you don't believe it. In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 27 19:48:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 12:48:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019501d61ccc$d901d390$8b057ab0$@rainier66.com> >?> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine >?A lab in Briton has used genetic engineering to jump ahead of everybody else and has developed a COVID-19 vaccine in record time... If it works in humans as well as it does in monkeys (a big IF) we could manufacture several million doses of the vaccine by September, much earlier than previously thought? John this is the most positive thing you have posted in I don?t remember how long. Keep up the good work. >?Keep your fingers crossed, I don't believe that superstition helps but they say it works even if you don't believe it. In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead John K Clark Note that Oxford is where our own Anders Sandberg is living. Regarding that business about crossing fingers for good luck, I have invented a new religion that is the kind of thing one might expect from a controls engineer. In that field, we control machines and processes by setting up negative feedback loops and eliminating positive feedback loops. Traditional religions are filled with positive feedback loops, oh mercy, poles in the right half plane as we say in the biz. I thought of a way to deal with it: I have taken those positive feedbacks and converted them to negative feedbacks. In traditional religions, belief in that religion is a virtue: saved by faith, which is you get points for believing. In the religion I invented, it is the opposite: you get points for disbelieving. When I explain it to people, some say, oh that is silly. Of course that promotes them to higher status in the religion that values skepticism rather than faith. In one major religion, there is a formalized sainthood process, with one requirement being that miracles happen in the person?s presence. In spike-ism, the sainthood path is when natural occurrences happen in the presence of the skeptic. If a miracle occurs in the presence of a skeptic, that damages his or her standing in spike-ism, unless a natural explanation can be found. I can explain everything. And I disbelieve my own religion with all my heart, mind and? and that?s all because a heart and a mind I have, the rest of it, not so much, so heart and mind full stop. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 20:06:50 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 14:06:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <019501d61ccc$d901d390$8b057ab0$@rainier66.com> References: <019501d61ccc$d901d390$8b057ab0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "The sacred tradition of Discordians is to eat a hot dog on Fridays, thereby simultaneously violating the Jewish and Muslim prohibitions of pork, the Catholic prohibition of meat on Fridays, and the Discordian prohibition of hot dog buns." On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 1:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *>?*> *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine > > > > >?A lab in Briton has used genetic engineering to jump ahead of everybody > else and has developed a COVID-19 vaccine in record time... If it works in > humans as well as it does in monkeys (a big IF) we could manufacture > several million doses of the vaccine by September, much earlier than > previously thought? > > > > John this is the most positive thing you have posted in I don?t remember > how long. Keep up the good work. > > > > > > >?Keep your fingers crossed, I don't believe that superstition helps but > they say it works even if you don't believe it. > > > > In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead > > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > Note that Oxford is where our own Anders Sandberg is living. > > > > Regarding that business about crossing fingers for good luck, I have > invented a new religion that is the kind of thing one might expect from a > controls engineer. > > > > In that field, we control machines and processes by setting up negative > feedback loops and eliminating positive feedback loops. Traditional > religions are filled with positive feedback loops, oh mercy, poles in the > right half plane as we say in the biz. I thought of a way to deal with it: > I have taken those positive feedbacks and converted them to negative > feedbacks. > > > > In traditional religions, belief in that religion is a virtue: saved by > faith, which is you get points for believing. In the religion I invented, > it is the opposite: you get points for disbelieving. When I explain it to > people, some say, oh that is silly. Of course that promotes them to higher > status in the religion that values skepticism rather than faith. > > > > In one major religion, there is a formalized sainthood process, with one > requirement being that miracles happen in the person?s presence. In > spike-ism, the sainthood path is when natural occurrences happen in the > presence of the skeptic. If a miracle occurs in the presence of a skeptic, > that damages his or her standing in spike-ism, unless a natural explanation > can be found. > > > > I can explain everything. And I disbelieve my own religion with all my > heart, mind and? and that?s all because a heart and a mind I have, the rest > of it, not so much, so heart and mind full stop. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 20:56:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 15:56:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <019501d61ccc$d901d390$8b057ab0$@rainier66.com> References: <019501d61ccc$d901d390$8b057ab0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In the religion I invented, it is the opposite: you get points for disbelieving. When I explain it to people, some say, oh that is silly. Of course that promotes them to higher status in the religion that values skepticism rather than faith. spike But wait a minute here. If presented with a belief, I deny it, getting points. But then couldn't I deny my own denial, paradoxically believing in the presented belief, which you then have to deny again to maintain consistency, and then deny that... That reads like a positive feedback cycle to me. Your religion is based on a premise of not creating positive feedback loops and your own religion creates them, so in essence the religion is denying itself. Or.....? bill w On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 2:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *>?*> *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine > > > > >?A lab in Briton has used genetic engineering to jump ahead of everybody > else and has developed a COVID-19 vaccine in record time... If it works in > humans as well as it does in monkeys (a big IF) we could manufacture > several million doses of the vaccine by September, much earlier than > previously thought? > > > > John this is the most positive thing you have posted in I don?t remember > how long. Keep up the good work. > > > > > > >?Keep your fingers crossed, I don't believe that superstition helps but > they say it works even if you don't believe it. > > > > In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead > > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > Note that Oxford is where our own Anders Sandberg is living. > > > > Regarding that business about crossing fingers for good luck, I have > invented a new religion that is the kind of thing one might expect from a > controls engineer. > > > > In that field, we control machines and processes by setting up negative > feedback loops and eliminating positive feedback loops. Traditional > religions are filled with positive feedback loops, oh mercy, poles in the > right half plane as we say in the biz. I thought of a way to deal with it: > I have taken those positive feedbacks and converted them to negative > feedbacks. > > > > In traditional religions, belief in that religion is a virtue: saved by > faith, which is you get points for believing. In the religion I invented, > it is the opposite: you get points for disbelieving. When I explain it to > people, some say, oh that is silly. Of course that promotes them to higher > status in the religion that values skepticism rather than faith. > > > > In one major religion, there is a formalized sainthood process, with one > requirement being that miracles happen in the person?s presence. In > spike-ism, the sainthood path is when natural occurrences happen in the > presence of the skeptic. If a miracle occurs in the presence of a skeptic, > that damages his or her standing in spike-ism, unless a natural explanation > can be found. > > > > I can explain everything. And I disbelieve my own religion with all my > heart, mind and? and that?s all because a heart and a mind I have, the rest > of it, not so much, so heart and mind full stop. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Apr 27 21:15:15 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 22:15:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason Resch said: "Special relativity implies spacetime, which means there is no such thing as an objective present point in time. This implies "block time" the idea that in reality the universe is a static unchanging 4 dimensional block rather than a 3d one evolving through time. Thus, all times are equally real, every thing in every time exists eternally and has always existed." I think you are over-interpreting the significance of such theories. And this idea of 'block time' is irrelevant to people's actual lives, which begin and end. I'm not interested in whether I'm eternal in some sense because of an interpretation of a theory, I'm interested in extending my lifespan beyond its natural limit. For that, things must be done. For your 'immortality', what does anyone need to do? Nothing. Frank Tipler's Omega Point is just something that may happen in the far distant future. Without any input from me, or anyone else. Not interesting or relevant. In fact, it might as well be a religious concept. This '4-dimensional block time' doesn't prevent anyone from dying, does it? It doesn't prevent people from growing old and decrepit. In fact, it doesn't make one iota of difference to their lives. It applies just as much to Thog the Caveman, Rameses the second, Mrs Miggins and Napoleon as it does to me. So where is the progress, the improvement, and the expansion of human capabilities? There is none. It is simply irrelevant, an intellectual curiosity of no practical value. To paraphrase Woody Allen, I want immortality through not dying, not through being embedded in 4-dimensional block time. "I defined consciousness as awareness of information, and said that it can arise in any information processing system which can enter different states based upon that information" Ah, yes, so you did. Now I know why I didn't remember it. Seeing as nothing can be aware of anything but information, you're saying "consciousness is awareness". Great. Can you come up with something a little less trite? And can you prove that it can arise in any information processing system? Well, any system that processes information can be said to be 'aware' of the information, otherwise it wouldn't be able to process it. Entering different states is implicit in the word 'processing'. An information processing system that doesn't change its state in response to incoming information isn't processing the information. It seems we have a problem. Perhaps I should modify my question: How do you define 'consciousness' without using circular definitions? Yes, sorry, it's a trick question. I don't think it's possible. 'Consciousness' is just one of those wooly words that doesn't really mean anything definite at all. I propose we drop the word altogether, and just talk about Information Processing instead. This has the advantage of avoiding any potential supernatural implications or associations. Then we can get on with more interesting and useful questions, such as what kind of structure does an information processing system need to have in order to solve complex problems, model other such systems, model itself, remember the past, make predictions about the future based upon information gathered in the past, etc.? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Apr 27 21:16:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 14:16:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] spike-ism, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine Message-ID: <01d701d61cd9$19118d70$4b34a850$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine >>?In the religion I invented, it is the opposite: you get points for disbelieving. When I explain it to people, some say, oh that is silly. Of course that promotes them to higher status in the religion that values skepticism rather than faith. spike >?But wait a minute here. If presented with a belief, I deny it, getting points. But then couldn't I deny my own denial, paradoxically believing in the presented belief, which you then have to deny again to maintain consistency, and then deny that... >?That reads like a positive feedback cycle to me. Your religion is based on a premise of not creating positive feedback loops and your own religion creates them, so in essence the religion is denying itself. Or.....? >?bill w BillW, I nominate you as the second pope of spike-ism. I am the first of course. Since spike-ism is based on eliminating positive feedback loops. You demonstrated that this leads to a positive feedback loop: the religion based on skepticism refutes itself, thus reinforcing itself. Kurt G?del would be so proud of you sir. spike On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 2:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? >>?In traditional religions, belief in that religion is a virtue: saved by faith, which is you get points for believing. In the religion I invented, it is the opposite: you get points for disbelieving. When I explain it to people, some say, oh that is silly. Of course that promotes them to higher status in the religion that values skepticism rather than faith?spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 21:42:54 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 16:42:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:16 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Jason Resch said: > > "Special relativity implies spacetime, which means there is no such thing > as an objective present point in time. This implies "block time" the idea > that in reality the universe is a static unchanging 4 dimensional block > rather than a 3d one evolving through time. Thus, all times are equally > real, every thing in every time exists eternally and has always existed." > > I think you are over-interpreting the significance of such theories. > Can you explain why you think so? Was Einstein wrong about his own theory? > And this idea of 'block time' is irrelevant to people's actual lives, > which begin and end. > But you never die from your first-person perspective. Living eternally in every moment of your life is equivalent in effect to living your life over and over again forever. You might not care, but perhaps someone might find some comfort in knowing someone isn't gone, just present in a different time. (As Einstein through Besso's wife might when he explained that to her). > I'm not interested in whether I'm eternal in some sense because of an > interpretation of a theory, I'm interested in extending my lifespan beyond > its natural limit. For that, things must be done. > This is a consequence of quantum mechanics. You need not do anything if quantum mechanics is true. Special relativity and quantum mechanics are the two cornerstones of modern physics. Both of them imply different forms of living forever. > For your 'immortality', what does anyone need to do? Nothing. Frank > Tipler's Omega Point is just something that may happen in the far distant > future. Without any input from me, or anyone else. Not interesting or > relevant. In fact, it might as well be a religious concept. > It's relevant. You don't experience the passage of time while you're dead. So even if Tipler's or some other Omega point happens a trillion years from now, from your point of view you experience it immediately after you die. You feel as though you are instantaneously resurrected. > This '4-dimensional block time' doesn't prevent anyone from dying, does > it? > To be completely precise and avoid misinterpretation, I would phrase it as "Special relativity doesn't imply one's one's temporal borders will extend indefinitely into the future." (But quantum mechanics does imply this, from a first-person perspective). > It doesn't prevent people from growing old and decrepit. > Neither special relativity nor quantum mechanics prevent you from becoming older and more decrepit, but reincarnation through low-entropy brain state intersection (as implied by mechanist/materialist theories of mind) give you immortality without continued ageing, only loss of memories. If you want immortality, and continued accumulation of memories, then you need to posit a large universe and the simulation hypothesis. Then you have the possibility of awaking as an immortal being who collects lifetimes worth of memories as one might collect stamps. > In fact, it doesn't make one iota of difference to their lives. It applies > just as much to Thog the Caveman, > I thought it was Og. > Rameses the second, Mrs Miggins and Napoleon as it does to me. So where is > the progress, the improvement, and the expansion of human capabilities? > There is none. It is simply irrelevant, an intellectual curiosity of no > practical value. > You asked for an explanation of how special relativity implies eternal life. I can't make you like it. > > To paraphrase Woody Allen, I want immortality through not dying, not > through being embedded in 4-dimensional block time. > > Then you can study the consequences of the other theories I mentioned, which contain more favorable forms of continued experience. > > > "I defined consciousness as awareness of information, and said that it > can arise in any information processing system which can enter different > states based upon that information" > > Ah, yes, so you did. > Now I know why I didn't remember it. > > Seeing as nothing can be aware of anything but information, you're saying > "consciousness is awareness". Great. Can you come up with something a > little less trite? > Any definition is going to be simple if its to be inclusive about minimally conscious entities. If you dislike "awareness" you can substitute "awareness" with "having knowledge of" so the definition of consciousness becomes "having knowledge of information". What's your definition? Can you do better? > > And can you prove that it can arise in any information processing system? > Well, any system that processes information can be said to be 'aware' of > the information, otherwise it wouldn't be able to process it. Entering > different states is implicit in the word 'processing'. An information > processing system that doesn't change its state in response to incoming > information isn't processing the information. > > It seems we have a problem. > > Perhaps I should modify my question: How do you define 'consciousness' > without using circular definitions? > > Yes, sorry, it's a trick question. I don't think it's possible. > 'Consciousness' is just one of those wooly words that doesn't really mean > anything definite at all. > So you have no definition and think there cannot be one? > > I propose we drop the word altogether, and just talk about Information > Processing instead. This has the advantage of avoiding any potential > supernatural implications or associations. Then we can get on with more > interesting and useful questions, such as what kind of structure does an > information processing system need to have in order to solve complex > problems, model other such systems, model itself, remember the past, make > predictions about the future based upon information gathered in the past, > etc.? > > I can agree that debating "what is conscious" is the same class of question as "what is alive", there's no simple definition or boundary because there is a broad range of complexity of different things you might call alive. Nonetheless I still think consciousness is a useful word. It seems we agree it is related to information processing. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 21:54:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 16:54:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You don't experience the passage of time while you're dead. So even if Tipler's or some other Omega point happens a trillion years from now, from your point of view you experience it immediately after you die. You feel as though you are instantaneously resurrected Jason How do you know these things? Has some resurrected person told you? bill w On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:45 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:16 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Jason Resch said: >> >> "Special relativity implies spacetime, which means there is no such >> thing as an objective present point in time. This implies "block time" the >> idea that in reality the universe is a static unchanging 4 dimensional >> block rather than a 3d one evolving through time. Thus, all times are >> equally real, every thing in every time exists eternally and has always >> existed." >> >> I think you are over-interpreting the significance of such theories. >> > > Can you explain why you think so? Was Einstein wrong about his own theory? > > >> And this idea of 'block time' is irrelevant to people's actual lives, >> which begin and end. >> > > But you never die from your first-person perspective. > > Living eternally in every moment of your life is equivalent in effect to > living your life over and over again forever. You might not care, but > perhaps someone might find some comfort in knowing someone isn't gone, just > present in a different time. (As Einstein through Besso's wife might when > he explained that to her). > > >> I'm not interested in whether I'm eternal in some sense because of an >> interpretation of a theory, I'm interested in extending my lifespan beyond >> its natural limit. For that, things must be done. >> > > This is a consequence of quantum mechanics. You need not do anything if > quantum mechanics is true. > > Special relativity and quantum mechanics are the two cornerstones of > modern physics. Both of them imply different forms of living forever. > > >> For your 'immortality', what does anyone need to do? Nothing. Frank >> Tipler's Omega Point is just something that may happen in the far distant >> future. Without any input from me, or anyone else. Not interesting or >> relevant. In fact, it might as well be a religious concept. >> > > It's relevant. You don't experience the passage of time while you're dead. > So even if Tipler's or some other Omega point happens a trillion years from > now, from your point of view you experience it immediately after you die. > You feel as though you are instantaneously resurrected. > > >> This '4-dimensional block time' doesn't prevent anyone from dying, does >> it? >> > > To be completely precise and avoid misinterpretation, I would phrase it as > "Special relativity doesn't imply one's one's temporal borders will extend > indefinitely into the future." (But quantum mechanics does imply this, > from a first-person perspective). > > >> It doesn't prevent people from growing old and decrepit. >> > > Neither special relativity nor quantum mechanics prevent you from becoming > older and more decrepit, but reincarnation through low-entropy brain state > intersection (as implied by mechanist/materialist theories of mind) give > you immortality without continued ageing, only loss of memories. > > If you want immortality, and continued accumulation of memories, then you > need to posit a large universe and the simulation hypothesis. Then you have > the possibility of awaking as an immortal being who collects lifetimes > worth of memories as one might collect stamps. > > > >> In fact, it doesn't make one iota of difference to their lives. It >> applies just as much to Thog the Caveman, >> > > I thought it was Og. > > >> Rameses the second, Mrs Miggins and Napoleon as it does to me. So where >> is the progress, the improvement, and the expansion of human capabilities? >> There is none. It is simply irrelevant, an intellectual curiosity of no >> practical value. >> > > You asked for an explanation of how special relativity implies eternal > life. I can't make you like it. > > >> >> To paraphrase Woody Allen, I want immortality through not dying, not >> through being embedded in 4-dimensional block time. >> >> > Then you can study the consequences of the other theories I mentioned, > which contain more favorable forms of continued experience. > > >> >> >> "I defined consciousness as awareness of information, and said that it >> can arise in any information processing system which can enter different >> states based upon that information" >> >> Ah, yes, so you did. >> Now I know why I didn't remember it. >> >> Seeing as nothing can be aware of anything but information, you're saying >> "consciousness is awareness". Great. Can you come up with something a >> little less trite? >> > > Any definition is going to be simple if its to be inclusive about > minimally conscious entities. > > If you dislike "awareness" you can substitute "awareness" with "having > knowledge of" so the definition of consciousness becomes "having knowledge > of information". > > What's your definition? Can you do better? > > >> >> And can you prove that it can arise in any information processing system? >> Well, any system that processes information can be said to be 'aware' of >> the information, otherwise it wouldn't be able to process it. Entering >> different states is implicit in the word 'processing'. An information >> processing system that doesn't change its state in response to incoming >> information isn't processing the information. >> >> It seems we have a problem. >> >> Perhaps I should modify my question: How do you define 'consciousness' >> without using circular definitions? >> >> Yes, sorry, it's a trick question. I don't think it's possible. >> 'Consciousness' is just one of those wooly words that doesn't really mean >> anything definite at all. >> > > So you have no definition and think there cannot be one? > > >> >> I propose we drop the word altogether, and just talk about Information >> Processing instead. This has the advantage of avoiding any potential >> supernatural implications or associations. Then we can get on with more >> interesting and useful questions, such as what kind of structure does an >> information processing system need to have in order to solve complex >> problems, model other such systems, model itself, remember the past, make >> predictions about the future based upon information gathered in the past, >> etc.? >> >> > I can agree that debating "what is conscious" is the same class of > question as "what is alive", there's no simple definition or boundary > because there is a broad range of complexity of different things you might > call alive. > > Nonetheless I still think consciousness is a useful word. It seems we > agree it is related to information processing. > > Jason > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 21:56:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 16:56:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] spike-ism, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <01d701d61cd9$19118d70$4b34a850$@rainier66.com> References: <01d701d61cd9$19118d70$4b34a850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am duly honored. Since 'pope' means daddy, you will be the Big Daddy and I will be a Little DAddy. bill w On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine > > > > >>?In the religion I invented, it is the opposite: you get points for > disbelieving. When I explain it to people, some say, oh that is silly. Of > course that promotes them to higher status in the religion that values > skepticism rather than faith. spike > > > > >?But wait a minute here. If presented with a belief, I deny it, getting > points. But then couldn't I deny my own denial, paradoxically believing in > the presented belief, which you then have to deny again to maintain > consistency, and then deny that... > > > > >?That reads like a positive feedback cycle to me. Your religion is > based on a premise of not creating positive feedback loops and your own > religion creates them, so in essence the religion is denying itself. > Or.....? > > > > >?bill w > > > > > > > > > > BillW, I nominate you as the second pope of spike-ism. I am the first of > course. > > > > Since spike-ism is based on eliminating positive feedback loops. You > demonstrated that this leads to a positive feedback loop: the religion > based on skepticism refutes itself, thus reinforcing itself. > > > > Kurt G?del would be so proud of you sir. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 2:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > ? > > >>?In traditional religions, belief in that religion is a virtue: saved by > faith, which is you get points for believing. In the religion I invented, > it is the opposite: you get points for disbelieving. When I explain it to > people, some say, oh that is silly. Of course that promotes them to higher > status in the religion that values skepticism rather than faith?spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 22:17:38 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 17:17:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Monday, April 27, 2020, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You don't experience the passage of time while you're dead. So even if > Tipler's or some other Omega point happens a trillion years from now, from > your point of view you experience it immediately after you die. You feel as > though you are instantaneously resurrected Jason > > How do you know these things? Has some resurrected person told you? > bill w > >> >> It's a natural conclusion from any delayed teletransporter thought experiment. Consider step 2 described here: http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHAL.pdf Jason > On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:45 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:16 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason Resch said: >>> >>> "Special relativity implies spacetime, which means there is no such >>> thing as an objective present point in time. This implies "block time" the >>> idea that in reality the universe is a static unchanging 4 dimensional >>> block rather than a 3d one evolving through time. Thus, all times are >>> equally real, every thing in every time exists eternally and has always >>> existed." >>> >>> I think you are over-interpreting the significance of such theories. >>> >> >> Can you explain why you think so? Was Einstein wrong about his own theory? >> >> >>> And this idea of 'block time' is irrelevant to people's actual lives, >>> which begin and end. >>> >> >> But you never die from your first-person perspective. >> >> Living eternally in every moment of your life is equivalent in effect to >> living your life over and over again forever. You might not care, but >> perhaps someone might find some comfort in knowing someone isn't gone, just >> present in a different time. (As Einstein through Besso's wife might when >> he explained that to her). >> >> >>> I'm not interested in whether I'm eternal in some sense because of an >>> interpretation of a theory, I'm interested in extending my lifespan beyond >>> its natural limit. For that, things must be done. >>> >> >> This is a consequence of quantum mechanics. You need not do anything if >> quantum mechanics is true. >> >> Special relativity and quantum mechanics are the two cornerstones of >> modern physics. Both of them imply different forms of living forever. >> >> >>> For your 'immortality', what does anyone need to do? Nothing. Frank >>> Tipler's Omega Point is just something that may happen in the far distant >>> future. Without any input from me, or anyone else. Not interesting or >>> relevant. In fact, it might as well be a religious concept. >>> >> >> It's relevant. You don't experience the passage of time while you're >> dead. So even if Tipler's or some other Omega point happens a trillion >> years from now, from your point of view you experience it immediately after >> you die. You feel as though you are instantaneously resurrected. >> >> >>> This '4-dimensional block time' doesn't prevent anyone from dying, does >>> it? >>> >> >> To be completely precise and avoid misinterpretation, I would phrase it >> as "Special relativity doesn't imply one's one's temporal borders will >> extend indefinitely into the future." (But quantum mechanics does imply >> this, from a first-person perspective). >> >> >>> It doesn't prevent people from growing old and decrepit. >>> >> >> Neither special relativity nor quantum mechanics prevent you from >> becoming older and more decrepit, but reincarnation through low-entropy >> brain state intersection (as implied by mechanist/materialist theories of >> mind) give you immortality without continued ageing, only loss of memories. >> >> If you want immortality, and continued accumulation of memories, then you >> need to posit a large universe and the simulation hypothesis. Then you have >> the possibility of awaking as an immortal being who collects lifetimes >> worth of memories as one might collect stamps. >> >> >> >>> In fact, it doesn't make one iota of difference to their lives. It >>> applies just as much to Thog the Caveman, >>> >> >> I thought it was Og. >> >> >>> Rameses the second, Mrs Miggins and Napoleon as it does to me. So where >>> is the progress, the improvement, and the expansion of human capabilities? >>> There is none. It is simply irrelevant, an intellectual curiosity of no >>> practical value. >>> >> >> You asked for an explanation of how special relativity implies eternal >> life. I can't make you like it. >> >> >>> >>> To paraphrase Woody Allen, I want immortality through not dying, not >>> through being embedded in 4-dimensional block time. >>> >>> >> Then you can study the consequences of the other theories I mentioned, >> which contain more favorable forms of continued experience. >> >> >>> >>> >>> "I defined consciousness as awareness of information, and said that it >>> can arise in any information processing system which can enter different >>> states based upon that information" >>> >>> Ah, yes, so you did. >>> Now I know why I didn't remember it. >>> >>> Seeing as nothing can be aware of anything but information, you're >>> saying "consciousness is awareness". Great. Can you come up with something >>> a little less trite? >>> >> >> Any definition is going to be simple if its to be inclusive about >> minimally conscious entities. >> >> If you dislike "awareness" you can substitute "awareness" with "having >> knowledge of" so the definition of consciousness becomes "having knowledge >> of information". >> >> What's your definition? Can you do better? >> >> >>> >>> And can you prove that it can arise in any information processing >>> system? Well, any system that processes information can be said to be >>> 'aware' of the information, otherwise it wouldn't be able to process it. >>> Entering different states is implicit in the word 'processing'. An >>> information processing system that doesn't change its state in response to >>> incoming information isn't processing the information. >>> >>> It seems we have a problem. >>> >>> Perhaps I should modify my question: How do you define 'consciousness' >>> without using circular definitions? >>> >>> Yes, sorry, it's a trick question. I don't think it's possible. >>> 'Consciousness' is just one of those wooly words that doesn't really mean >>> anything definite at all. >>> >> >> So you have no definition and think there cannot be one? >> >> >>> >>> I propose we drop the word altogether, and just talk about Information >>> Processing instead. This has the advantage of avoiding any potential >>> supernatural implications or associations. Then we can get on with more >>> interesting and useful questions, such as what kind of structure does an >>> information processing system need to have in order to solve complex >>> problems, model other such systems, model itself, remember the past, make >>> predictions about the future based upon information gathered in the past, >>> etc.? >>> >>> >> I can agree that debating "what is conscious" is the same class of >> question as "what is alive", there's no simple definition or boundary >> because there is a broad range of complexity of different things you might >> call alive. >> >> Nonetheless I still think consciousness is a useful word. It seems we >> agree it is related to information processing. >> >> Jason >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 22:38:15 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:38:15 +1000 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 at 07:56, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You don't experience the passage of time while you're dead. So even if > Tipler's or some other Omega point happens a trillion years from now, from > your point of view you experience it immediately after you die. You feel as > though you are instantaneously resurrected Jason > > How do you know these things? Has some resurrected person told you? > bill w > It follows from the definition of the terms that if a person has a period of unconsciousness they do not experience it. On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:45 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 4:16 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason Resch said: >>> >>> "Special relativity implies spacetime, which means there is no such >>> thing as an objective present point in time. This implies "block time" the >>> idea that in reality the universe is a static unchanging 4 dimensional >>> block rather than a 3d one evolving through time. Thus, all times are >>> equally real, every thing in every time exists eternally and has always >>> existed." >>> >>> I think you are over-interpreting the significance of such theories. >>> >> >> Can you explain why you think so? Was Einstein wrong about his own theory? >> >> >>> And this idea of 'block time' is irrelevant to people's actual lives, >>> which begin and end. >>> >> >> But you never die from your first-person perspective. >> >> Living eternally in every moment of your life is equivalent in effect to >> living your life over and over again forever. You might not care, but >> perhaps someone might find some comfort in knowing someone isn't gone, just >> present in a different time. (As Einstein through Besso's wife might when >> he explained that to her). >> >> >>> I'm not interested in whether I'm eternal in some sense because of an >>> interpretation of a theory, I'm interested in extending my lifespan beyond >>> its natural limit. For that, things must be done. >>> >> >> This is a consequence of quantum mechanics. You need not do anything if >> quantum mechanics is true. >> >> Special relativity and quantum mechanics are the two cornerstones of >> modern physics. Both of them imply different forms of living forever. >> >> >>> For your 'immortality', what does anyone need to do? Nothing. Frank >>> Tipler's Omega Point is just something that may happen in the far distant >>> future. Without any input from me, or anyone else. Not interesting or >>> relevant. In fact, it might as well be a religious concept. >>> >> >> It's relevant. You don't experience the passage of time while you're >> dead. So even if Tipler's or some other Omega point happens a trillion >> years from now, from your point of view you experience it immediately after >> you die. You feel as though you are instantaneously resurrected. >> >> >>> This '4-dimensional block time' doesn't prevent anyone from dying, does >>> it? >>> >> >> To be completely precise and avoid misinterpretation, I would phrase it >> as "Special relativity doesn't imply one's one's temporal borders will >> extend indefinitely into the future." (But quantum mechanics does imply >> this, from a first-person perspective). >> >> >>> It doesn't prevent people from growing old and decrepit. >>> >> >> Neither special relativity nor quantum mechanics prevent you from >> becoming older and more decrepit, but reincarnation through low-entropy >> brain state intersection (as implied by mechanist/materialist theories of >> mind) give you immortality without continued ageing, only loss of memories. >> >> If you want immortality, and continued accumulation of memories, then you >> need to posit a large universe and the simulation hypothesis. Then you have >> the possibility of awaking as an immortal being who collects lifetimes >> worth of memories as one might collect stamps. >> >> >> >>> In fact, it doesn't make one iota of difference to their lives. It >>> applies just as much to Thog the Caveman, >>> >> >> I thought it was Og. >> >> >>> Rameses the second, Mrs Miggins and Napoleon as it does to me. So where >>> is the progress, the improvement, and the expansion of human capabilities? >>> There is none. It is simply irrelevant, an intellectual curiosity of no >>> practical value. >>> >> >> You asked for an explanation of how special relativity implies eternal >> life. I can't make you like it. >> >> >>> >>> To paraphrase Woody Allen, I want immortality through not dying, not >>> through being embedded in 4-dimensional block time. >>> >>> >> Then you can study the consequences of the other theories I mentioned, >> which contain more favorable forms of continued experience. >> >> >>> >>> >>> "I defined consciousness as awareness of information, and said that it >>> can arise in any information processing system which can enter different >>> states based upon that information" >>> >>> Ah, yes, so you did. >>> Now I know why I didn't remember it. >>> >>> Seeing as nothing can be aware of anything but information, you're >>> saying "consciousness is awareness". Great. Can you come up with something >>> a little less trite? >>> >> >> Any definition is going to be simple if its to be inclusive about >> minimally conscious entities. >> >> If you dislike "awareness" you can substitute "awareness" with "having >> knowledge of" so the definition of consciousness becomes "having knowledge >> of information". >> >> What's your definition? Can you do better? >> >> >>> >>> And can you prove that it can arise in any information processing >>> system? Well, any system that processes information can be said to be >>> 'aware' of the information, otherwise it wouldn't be able to process it. >>> Entering different states is implicit in the word 'processing'. An >>> information processing system that doesn't change its state in response to >>> incoming information isn't processing the information. >>> >>> It seems we have a problem. >>> >>> Perhaps I should modify my question: How do you define 'consciousness' >>> without using circular definitions? >>> >>> Yes, sorry, it's a trick question. I don't think it's possible. >>> 'Consciousness' is just one of those wooly words that doesn't really mean >>> anything definite at all. >>> >> >> So you have no definition and think there cannot be one? >> >> >>> >>> I propose we drop the word altogether, and just talk about Information >>> Processing instead. This has the advantage of avoiding any potential >>> supernatural implications or associations. Then we can get on with more >>> interesting and useful questions, such as what kind of structure does an >>> information processing system need to have in order to solve complex >>> problems, model other such systems, model itself, remember the past, make >>> predictions about the future based upon information gathered in the past, >>> etc.? >>> >>> >> I can agree that debating "what is conscious" is the same class of >> question as "what is alive", there's no simple definition or boundary >> because there is a broad range of complexity of different things you might >> call alive. >> >> Nonetheless I still think consciousness is a useful word. It seems we >> agree it is related to information processing. >> >> Jason >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 23:36:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 19:36:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason Resch said: > *Special relativity implies spacetime, which means there is no such thing > as an objective present point in time.* > You don't need special relativity to know "now" doesn't have a unique objective point. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 23:40:51 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 16:40:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 27, 2020, at 12:28 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote::? > > A lab in Briton has used genetic engineering to jump ahead of everybody else and has developed a COVID-19 vaccine in record time. It seems safe in humans and has been shown to work with rhesus macaque monkeys. Six of the animals were given one shot of the vaccine and then exposed to very high levels of COVID-19. Animals that didn't get the vaccine consistently got sick, but after 28 days all 6 vaccinated monkeys remained healthy. Last week a Phase 1 clinical trial involving 1,100 humans started and next month a combined Phase 2 and Phase 3 trial involving 6,000 people will start, it will be the first time any COVID-19 vaccine is tested for effectiveness and not just safety. If it works in humans as well as it does in monkeys (a big IF) we could manufacture several million doses of the vaccine by September, much earlier than previously thought. > > Keep your fingers crossed, I don't believe that superstition helps but they say it works even if you don't believe it. > > In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead Great news! But I don?t do the fingers crossed thing because I?m not superstitious for fear of it bringing me bad luck. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 23:41:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 19:41:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <019501d61ccc$d901d390$8b057ab0$@rainier66.com> References: <019501d61ccc$d901d390$8b057ab0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 3:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John this is the most positive thing you have posted in I don?t remember > how long. Well... it's the first news I've heard in I don?t remember how long that wasn't dreadful. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 28 00:21:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 17:21:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: References: <019501d61ccc$d901d390$8b057ab0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001901d61cf3$06e0ba30$14a22e90$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] A potential COVID-19 vaccine On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 3:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> John this is the most positive thing you have posted in I don?t remember how long. >?Well... it's the first news I've heard in I don?t remember how long that wasn't dreadful. John K Clark Indeed sir? With this coming in just this week? https://www.sciencenews.org/article/gravitational-waves-unevenly-sized-black-holes-ligo-virgo I have been going nuts trying to figure out why it would do the whole fifth overtone thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 28 01:08:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 18:08:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine Message-ID: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> An ever-clearer picture of what might be the most important factor in our current emergency. Four US states combined have more Covid-19 cases than the other 46 states combined: New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Illinois: I heard from a friend today who lives in upstate New York, who is very annoyed with this statistic. He explained that it isn?t New York, but rather New York New York. It?s the city doing all this. They don?t have many cases outside of downstate NY. The four states which are really being hit the hardest all have one thing in common: no not that? well that too, but that wasn?t the cause. The likely cause is that all four of those states have metropolis areas completely dependent on mass transit. The other states have metropolis areas, but those can be effectively accessed with one?s own car. Every time I have been in NY, the most striking thing is how difficult it is to move around the downtown area in your own car. It is terrifying. I completely see why they use the subways there. Any area which is completely dependent on subways make it impossible to do social distancing. Result: huge Covid numbers, and tragedy. They will not, or cannot shut down those subways, because those are the arteries and veins of the city. Mass transit was all the rage, such a great deal they told us. But yesterdays solutions are todays problems. Today, yesterday handed us a doozie. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 67843 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 01:21:07 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:21:07 +1000 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 at 11:10, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > An ever-clearer picture of what might be the most important factor in our > current emergency. > > > > Four US states combined have more Covid-19 cases than the other 46 states > combined: New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Illinois: > > > > > > > > > > I heard from a friend today who lives in upstate New York, who is very > annoyed with this statistic. He explained that it isn?t New York, but > rather New York New York. > > > > It?s the city doing all this. They don?t have many cases outside of > downstate NY. > > > > The four states which are really being hit the hardest all have one thing > in common: no not that? well that too, but that wasn?t the cause. The > likely cause is that all four of those states have metropolis areas > completely dependent on mass transit. > > > > The other states have metropolis areas, but those can be effectively > accessed with one?s own car. Every time I have been in NY, the most > striking thing is how difficult it is to move around the downtown area in > your own car. It is terrifying. I completely see why they use the subways > there. > > > > Any area which is completely dependent on subways make it impossible to do > social distancing. Result: huge Covid numbers, and tragedy. They will > not, or cannot shut down those subways, because those are the arteries and > veins of the city. > > > > Mass transit was all the rage, such a great deal they told us. But > yesterdays solutions are todays problems. > > > > Today, yesterday handed us a doozie. > In Australia, the culprit has been ships and aeroplanes. The highest number of cases have been in wealthy suburbs in cities, where citizens have a higher frequency of overseas travel, as well as the cases traced to people from particular cruise ships. Public transport is still running normally but usage is down at least 80%, as is usage of private cars. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 67843 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 28 01:48:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 18:48:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine Mass transit was all the rage, such a great deal they told us. But yesterdays solutions are todays problems. Today, yesterday handed us a doozie. >?In Australia, the culprit has been ships and aeroplanes. The highest number of cases have been in wealthy suburbs in cities, where citizens have a higher frequency of overseas travel, as well as the cases traced to people from particular cruise ships. Public transport is still running normally but usage is down at least 80%, as is usage of private cars. -- Stathis Papaioannou HI Stathis, Ja, so I hear. Now that we are far enough along in this crisis, that is a very clear and very important signal: it isn?t the testing, it isn?t the political anything, it isn?t the this or the that. It?s all about population density. Population density is the critical factor, which makes perfect sense. As human population densities increase everywhere, humans become an ever more suitable and attractive host for viruses. We have no reason to think this is the last one. Subways enable cities to pack tighter, and makes them more dangerous. We as a species recognize the way to control this sort of thing: spread out. We already knew that: the 1918 pandemic was as bad as it was because the war packed people close, on trains, ships, etc, to get men to the front where they camped in close quarters. Disease celebrated. We are reminded. It?s really pretty simple. Now we know: spread out, reduce risk. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Apr 28 10:24:45 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:24:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45d6d3c7-02de-7ce8-e925-e47342f4f6c6@zaiboc.net> Jason Resch said: A bunch of things. All I'm going to say is that i'm not interested in being a broken record, that repeats itself over and over again, indefinitely. I see no value or desirability in that. I'm interested in living for another 100 years, uploading, augmenting my natural abilities, and seeing what's possible after that. I certainly wouldn't put my trust in these theories, or rather your interpretation of them, and just do nothing. That may or may not be a recipe for oblivion, but even if it's not, the end result seems no better. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Apr 28 10:41:51 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:41:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Monday, April 27, 2020, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > You don't experience the passage of time while you're dead. So > even if Tipler's or some other Omega point happens a trillion > years from now, from your point of view you experience it > immediately after you die. You feel as though you are > instantaneously resurrected? Jason > > How do you know these things?? ?Has some resurrected person told > you?? bill w > > > > It's a natural conclusion from any delayed teletransporter thought > experiment. Consider step 2 described here: > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHAL.pdf Good grief. The fact that you're referring to that gobbledigook tells me all I need to know. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 11:20:01 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:20:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 9:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > We are reminded. It?s really pretty simple. Now we know: spread out, > reduce risk. > We need the "remote" work from home to continue as the new normal for those who can. I could live in a more remote location but have had to deal with commute of an hour+ to reach an office that connects to servers in Kansas City. Now i save 10 frustrating hours per week connecting to the same servers from my house. My employer could seat someone else at the now vacant office desk, or close that office completely since my whole office now works from home. I control hvac to my preference, additional environmentals such as lighting or music/quiet. Concern for productivity somehow being guaranteed or effectively monitored by managers observing ass-in-seat is a poor excuse- productivity should be measured by quality deliverables rather than time spent. I feel like we are on the verge of cementing this new norm. This would be the casualty of "returning to work" if we allow the [en]titled lords to send us peasants back to our toils. Worse now that we have seen what could be to have a taste of better only to have it taken away. I guess soon many will have to make a choice. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 28 12:36:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 05:36:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002201d61d59$a3e2c150$eba843f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine On Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 9:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: We are reminded. It?s really pretty simple. Now we know: spread out, reduce risk. >?We need the "remote" work from home to continue as the new normal for those who can?Now i save 10 frustrating hours per week connecting to the same servers from my house...I feel like we are on the verge of cementing this new norm. ? I guess soon many will have to make a choice? Mike A well written commentary by Mike Dougherty, thanks. Clearly there are big savings available to those companies which embrace remote work vs those which do not: you can save a ton of money on office space, office supplies, yakkity yak, the employees save time, wear on their cars if they drive, risk of death if they ride a subway, etc. I could see a new order of things, where remote-work companies pressure the old rigid nine to fivers aside. I can imagine a lotta societal benefits to the plan, with few drawbacks, but I will ask please the following question. The benefits to the expansion of remote working are obvious, but what is the downside? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 12:59:10 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:59:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <002201d61d59$a3e2c150$eba843f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> <002201d61d59$a3e2c150$eba843f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 8:39 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > The benefits to the expansion of remote working are obvious, but what is > the downside? > Off the top of my head: Less socialization/interaction with co-workers (may also be an upside :-) Potential for abuse (also exists with on-site work) Distractions (kids, pets, neighbors, etc.) Connectivity issues (not controlled by the employer) Security concerns Infrastructure support (e.g., how to do remote IT support/troubleshooting of employee's set-up) All of these can be addressed, more or less effectively, of course. And the cost savings from not providing office space should easily cover it. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 13:31:53 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:31:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: <45d6d3c7-02de-7ce8-e925-e47342f4f6c6@zaiboc.net> References: <45d6d3c7-02de-7ce8-e925-e47342f4f6c6@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Jason Resch said: > > A bunch of things. > > > > All I'm going to say is that i'm not interested in being a broken record, > that repeats itself over and over again, indefinitely. I see no value or > desirability in that. > > I'm interested in living for another 100 years, uploading, augmenting my > natural abilities, and seeing what's possible after that. I certainly > wouldn't put my trust in these theories, or rather your interpretation of > them, and just do nothing. That may or may not be a recipe for oblivion, > but even if it's not, the end result seems no better. > > I never suggested that you ought to do nothing. I only wanted to offer some good news for those who perhaps wanted to do something but couldn't or otherwise were born too early to do anything. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 13:57:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 09:57:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A preferred direction to the universe? Message-ID: The universe may have a preferred direction. A new study has found a spatial variation in the Fine Structure Constant (a pure number approximately equal to 1/137) with a 3.9 sigma level of confidence, that means there is a 0.8% chance it's just a statistical fluke. It's not good enough to claim a discovery, that requires 5 sigma or only 0.023% chance of it being bogus, but it's good enough to be interesting. The detected variation has a dipole structure, the laws of physics that govern electromagnetism seem to get stronger in one direction, and the further we look the stronger it gets, and it gets weaker when we look in the oposite direction, with no change in the perpendicular direction. In other words it has a dipole shape. If this turns out to be true then Noether's theorem tells us that the Law Of conservation Of Angular Momentum is only approximately true. Four direct measurements of the fine-structure constant 13 billion years ago This new optical work is consistent with a different study from a few weeks ago that used X rays instead of optical light, they also found a variation and along the same axis. Rethinking cosmology: Universe expansion may not be uniform John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Apr 28 14:03:34 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 10:03:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <002201d61d59$a3e2c150$eba843f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> <002201d61d59$a3e2c150$eba843f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <4f3bc1f58769db17e5b1e0743c064ec1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Tue, April 28, 2020 08:36, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > The benefits to the expansion of remote working are obvious, but what is > the downside? > You might want to look into the tax situation. In some places you might owe tax to the state where your office-job is *and* the state where your working-from-home is. https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2020/04/27/the_dangerous_tax_implication_of_tele-working_490075.html Regards, MB From interzone at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 14:47:32 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 10:47:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <4f3bc1f58769db17e5b1e0743c064ec1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> <002201d61d59$a3e2c150$eba843f0$@rainier66.com> <4f3bc1f58769db17e5b1e0743c064ec1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: It may vary from state to state but I've never had an issue working remotely in one state with the employer in another (at least CT/NY/NYC). Generally, you do have to file income tax in both states, but you get a credit from one and only end up paying once. They may attempt to change the laws, but I don't think this is an issue in many cases, but it's an interesting topic. On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, April 28, 2020 08:36, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > The benefits to the expansion of remote working are obvious, but what is > > the downside? > > > > You might want to look into the tax situation. In some places you might > owe tax to the state where your office-job is *and* the state where your > working-from-home is. > > > https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2020/04/27/the_dangerous_tax_implication_of_tele-working_490075.html > > Regards, > MB > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 15:06:15 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:06:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 9:59 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The universe may have a preferred direction. A new study has found a > spatial variation in the Fine Structure Constant (a pure number > approximately equal to 1/137) with a 3.9 sigma level of confidence, that > means there is a 0.8% chance it's just a statistical fluke. It's not good > enough to claim a discovery, that requires 5 sigma or only 0.023% chance of > it being bogus, but it's good enough to be interesting. The detected > variation has a dipole structure, the laws of physics that govern > electromagnetism seem to get stronger in one direction, and the further we > look the stronger it gets, and it gets weaker when we look in the oposite > direction, with no change in the perpendicular direction. In other words > it has a dipole shape. > > If this turns out to be true then Noether's theorem tells us that the Law > Of conservation Of Angular Momentum is only approximately true. > > Four direct measurements of the fine-structure constant 13 billion years > ago > > does this have any relation to that article from months ago about "time crystals" have something to do with why time only appears to flow in one direction also? I know, magnetism's direction isn't exactly the same as the flow time, but i'm assuming there's a topological principle that applies to both higher-level applications. also, something similar to spike's game of the idea ratio of pyramid height to base so that ... effectively either a fluid dynamic application or a center of gravity application; both of which are macro-scale understanding. topological explanation of fundamental forces/existential primitives involves interplay of "shapes" causing emergent features. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 28 15:20:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:20:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <4f3bc1f58769db17e5b1e0743c064ec1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> <002201d61d59$a3e2c150$eba843f0$@rainier66.com> <4f3bc1f58769db17e5b1e0743c064ec1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <007001d61d70$87405050$95c0f0f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine On Tue, April 28, 2020 08:36, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > >> The benefits to the expansion of remote working are obvious, but what > is the downside? > >...You might want to look into the tax situation. In some places you might owe tax to the state where your office-job is *and* the state where your working-from-home is. https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2020/04/27/the_dangerous_tax_impli cation_of_tele-working_490075.html Regards, MB _______________________________________________ How well we know that one. For several years I was commuting to New Jersey for business. That state doesn't care where you live: if you spend 30 or more nights in their state, they want to collect taxes. Several of my colleagues paid those (the company covered the cost) but they still had to fill out the tax returns and all that bother so some of us came up with alternative solutions. One was to drive into another state from our NJ office to stay the night. There were two states within reasonable driving distance, but that was a pain in the ass too, so as I approached the 30 day limit, I chose another solution which was unique to me: catch the last flight out of San Francisco at 1120, wheels down in Newark at 0610, run down to the rental car place with no checked luggage, never crowded that time of day and I was the first one there always, get a rental car, drive out to the office, low traffic still, get out there by 0730, work my ass off, drive the meetings (that was the important part, don't just go to the meetings, drive the meetings) try to finish that day, hustle on back to Newark, catch the 640 pm flight back to San Francisco, wheels down at 935 pm, drive home tired but back home just the same. Expense reports looked weird: four meals, no hotel. New Jersey never knew I was there (a hotel counts as there, a rental car does not.) One year I had 29 nights in New Jersey, and several more where I spent the night at 30k ft. I didn't like that assignment. I did end up with skerjillions of frequent flyer miles, none of which I ever used. I assume those points eventually died of old age, but no worries, I don't like flying. I love airplanes, so cool they are. I just don't like flying in airliners, forced into contact with all those other proles who I must assume are like me (ewwwww ick, gross, take me away Calgon (by car please.)) spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Apr 28 15:25:53 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:25:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007101d61d71$4eb4f3c0$ec1edb40$@rainier66.com> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 9:59 AM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: >? with a 3.9 sigma level of confidence, that means there is a 0.8% chance it's just a statistical fluke. It's not good enough to claim a discovery, that requires 5 sigma or only 0.023% chance of it being bogus? John why do you use 1.5 sigma shift for those confidence intervals? I am not saying it is wrong to use that, only curious why that applies there. Damn I need to study harder if those confidence levels are right. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 16:23:50 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:23:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: <007001d61d70$87405050$95c0f0f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> <002201d61d59$a3e2c150$eba843f0$@rainier66.com> <4f3bc1f58769db17e5b1e0743c064ec1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <007001d61d70$87405050$95c0f0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Isn't it the case that if you have a home office you can take the heating and cooling, elec. and so on off your taxes for that square footage? bill w On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine > > > > On Tue, April 28, 2020 08:36, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > >> The benefits to the expansion of remote working are obvious, but what > > is the downside? > > > > >...You might want to look into the tax situation. In some places you > might > owe tax to the state where your office-job is *and* the state where your > working-from-home is. > > > https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2020/04/27/the_dangerous_tax_impli > cation_of_tele-working_490075.html > > > Regards, > MB > > _______________________________________________ > > > How well we know that one. > > For several years I was commuting to New Jersey for business. That state > doesn't care where you live: if you spend 30 or more nights in their state, > they want to collect taxes. Several of my colleagues paid those (the > company covered the cost) but they still had to fill out the tax returns > and > all that bother so some of us came up with alternative solutions. > > One was to drive into another state from our NJ office to stay the night. > There were two states within reasonable driving distance, but that was a > pain in the ass too, so as I approached the 30 day limit, I chose another > solution which was unique to me: catch the last flight out of San Francisco > at 1120, wheels down in Newark at 0610, run down to the rental car place > with no checked luggage, never crowded that time of day and I was the first > one there always, get a rental car, drive out to the office, low traffic > still, get out there by 0730, work my ass off, drive the meetings (that was > the important part, don't just go to the meetings, drive the meetings) try > to finish that day, hustle on back to Newark, catch the 640 pm flight back > to San Francisco, wheels down at 935 pm, drive home tired but back home > just > the same. > > Expense reports looked weird: four meals, no hotel. New Jersey never knew > I > was there (a hotel counts as there, a rental car does not.) One year I had > 29 nights in New Jersey, and several more where I spent the night at 30k > ft. > I didn't like that assignment. I did end up with skerjillions of frequent > flyer miles, none of which I ever used. I assume those points eventually > died of old age, but no worries, I don't like flying. I love airplanes, so > cool they are. I just don't like flying in airliners, forced into contact > with all those other proles who I must assume are like me (ewwwww ick, > gross, take me away Calgon (by car please.)) > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 16:35:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:35:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:09 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> does this have any relation to that article from months ago about "time > crystals" have something to do with why time only appears to flow in one > direction also? * Not to my knowledge, but I don't know much, all I know for sure is this is weird. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 16:56:44 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:56:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine In-Reply-To: References: <002401d61cf9$9151cd20$b3f56760$@rainier66.com> <004b01d61cff$10b0f8c0$3212ea40$@rainier66.com> <002201d61d59$a3e2c150$eba843f0$@rainier66.com> <4f3bc1f58769db17e5b1e0743c064ec1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <007001d61d70$87405050$95c0f0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes, although I've always been advised not to get too aggressive with home office deductions, as historically they've increased the chances of an audit. That said, I still take what I can easily justify based on the accountant's feedback. On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 12:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Isn't it the case that if you have a home office you can take the heating > and cooling, elec. and so on off your taxes for that square footage? bill > w > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> > On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat >> Subject: Re: [ExI] subways, was: RE: A potential COVID-19 vaccine >> >> >> >> On Tue, April 28, 2020 08:36, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >> > >> >> The benefits to the expansion of remote working are obvious, but what >> > is the downside? >> > >> >> >...You might want to look into the tax situation. In some places you >> might >> owe tax to the state where your office-job is *and* the state where your >> working-from-home is. >> >> >> https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2020/04/27/the_dangerous_tax_impli >> cation_of_tele-working_490075.html >> >> >> Regards, >> MB >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> How well we know that one. >> >> For several years I was commuting to New Jersey for business. That state >> doesn't care where you live: if you spend 30 or more nights in their >> state, >> they want to collect taxes. Several of my colleagues paid those (the >> company covered the cost) but they still had to fill out the tax returns >> and >> all that bother so some of us came up with alternative solutions. >> >> One was to drive into another state from our NJ office to stay the night. >> There were two states within reasonable driving distance, but that was a >> pain in the ass too, so as I approached the 30 day limit, I chose another >> solution which was unique to me: catch the last flight out of San >> Francisco >> at 1120, wheels down in Newark at 0610, run down to the rental car place >> with no checked luggage, never crowded that time of day and I was the >> first >> one there always, get a rental car, drive out to the office, low traffic >> still, get out there by 0730, work my ass off, drive the meetings (that >> was >> the important part, don't just go to the meetings, drive the meetings) try >> to finish that day, hustle on back to Newark, catch the 640 pm flight back >> to San Francisco, wheels down at 935 pm, drive home tired but back home >> just >> the same. >> >> Expense reports looked weird: four meals, no hotel. New Jersey never >> knew I >> was there (a hotel counts as there, a rental car does not.) One year I >> had >> 29 nights in New Jersey, and several more where I spent the night at 30k >> ft. >> I didn't like that assignment. I did end up with skerjillions of frequent >> flyer miles, none of which I ever used. I assume those points eventually >> died of old age, but no worries, I don't like flying. I love airplanes, >> so >> cool they are. I just don't like flying in airliners, forced into contact >> with all those other proles who I must assume are like me (ewwwww ick, >> gross, take me away Calgon (by car please.)) >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Tue Apr 28 16:55:11 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:55:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Scientists to Stop COVID-19 Message-ID: https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/Scientists_to_Stop_COVID19_2020_04_23_FINAL.pdf From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 20:08:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:08:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War Message-ID: It took the Vietnam War 12 years to kill 47,424 Americans in combat, 58,209 if you include non combat deaths. As of today April 28 at 19:52 GMT COVID-19 has killed 58,269 Americans and it did it in less than 2 months. The US only has 4% of the world's population but, even though it is a rich technologically advanced country and had a month more time to prepare for the virus than other nations, it has 33% of the world's COVID-19 cases. There is a reason the US squandered those advantages, and if you're honest with yourself you know what that reason is. That reason thinks Clorox injections and sticking a UV flashlight up your ass can cure disease, and that's why I'm not a big fan of enablers of that reason, like Julian Assange for example. By the way, the official death numbers I gave above are almost certainly way too low. The Yale School of Public Health found that between March 1 and April 4 15,000 more Americans died than what you'd expect statistically, but only 8,000 officially had the word "COVID-19" on the death certificate, and the discrepancy was largest in places that were hit the hardest with COVID-19. Estimating the early death toll of COVID-19 in the United States John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 29 07:20:39 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 07:20:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Stranger than fiction References: <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788@mail.yahoo.com> The pandemic just keeps getting fishier and fishier. Apparently in 2014, the U.S. government called a moratorium on gain-of-function mutational research on respiratory viruses like SARS and influenza in U.S. labs citing recent accidents, risks of a pandemic, and biosecurity concerns. This caused the NIAID, lead by Anthony Fauci, to give the virus lab in Wuhan China a $3.7 million grant to perform gain-of-function research in bat-borne coranaviruses because our labs were not secure enough? What peaceful purpose could a gain-of-function mutation in the SARS virus possibly serve? And if it was a bioweapon program, why on Earth would we outsource it to China? https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/why-us-outsourced-bat-virus-research-to-wuhan/?fbclid=IwAR05XIyKjGNhcJO6RgdflBITizA_znxY05EA5ElaP4kSUm6T2sNFYI8X-U8 http://www.phe.gov/s3/dualuse/Documents/gain-of-function.pdf Stuart LaForge "History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 12:16:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 08:16:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stranger than fiction In-Reply-To: <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 3:44 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *This caused the NIAID, lead by Anthony Fauci, to give the virus lab in > Wuhan China a $3.7 million grant to perform gain-of-function research in > bat-borne coranaviruses because our labs were not secure enough?* That sentence may end in a question mark but it is not a question. > *>What peaceful purpose could a gain-of-function mutation in the SARS > virus possibly serve?* http://www.phe.gov/s3/dualuse/Documents/gain-of-function.pdf I would have thought you could have guessed that if one small mutation can turn a mild virus into a world killer (think 1918 flu) then that fact would be good to know, because then we can be prepared and start developing a vaccine for it. Like it or not it's probably only a matter of time before that mutation does happen. But if you couldn't guess the answer to your question the answer is in the first sentence of the very article you recommended: "*Gain-of-function studies, or research that improves the ability of a pathogen to cause disease, help define the fundamental nature of human-pathogen interactions, thereby enabling assessment of the pandemic potential of emerging infectious agents, informing public health and preparedness efforts, and furthering medical countermeasure development*." As for the other article you recommend: https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/why-us-outsourced-bat-virus-research-to-wuhan/?fbclid=IwAR05XIyKjGNhcJO6RgdflBITizA_znxY05EA5ElaP4kSUm6T2sNFYI8X-U8 I became a little suspicious of the article when it cited such world renowned virus experts as Fox News Lou Dobbs, and when it stated that Donald Trump was investigating the matter, the same very stable genius who investigated Barack Obama's birth certificate for years. I stopped reading when I came to this: *"in October 2014, because of public health concerns, the US government banned all federal funding on efforts to weaponize three viruses ? influenza, Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS)."* The US government hasn't authorized funds to weaponize any virus, or any bacteria either, since Nixon banned all offensive bioweapons research in 1969. > "History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte > Perhaps so, but the Extropian List should at least try to counteract that tendency not intensify it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 14:51:15 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 10:51:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Constants...We don't need no stinkin' constants... Message-ID: New findings suggest laws of nature 'downright weird,' not as constant as previously thought by Lachlan Gilbert, University of New South Wales Scientists examining the light from one of the furthermost quasars in the universe were astonished to find fluctuations in the electromagnetic force. Credit: Shutterstock Not only does a universal constant seem annoyingly inconstant at the outer fringes of the cosmos, it occurs in only one direction, which is downright weird. Those looking forward to a day when science's Grand Unifying Theory of Everything could be worn on a t-shirt may have to wait a little longer as astrophysicists continue to find hints that one of the cosmological constants is not so constant after all. In a paper published in Science Advances, scientists from UNSW Sydney reported that four new measurements of light emitted from a quasar 13 billion light years away reaffirm past studies that found tiny variations in the fine structure constant. UNSW Science's Professor John Webb says the fine structure constant is a measure of electromagnetism?one of the four fundamental forces in nature (the others are gravity, weak nuclear force and strong nuclear force). "The fine structure constant is the quantity that physicists use as a measure of the strength of the electromagnetic force," Professor Webb says. "It's a dimensionless number and it involves the speed of light, something called Planck's constant and the electron charge, and it's a ratio of those things. And it's the number that physicists use to measure the strength of the electromagnetic force." The electromagnetic force keeps electrons whizzing around a nucleus in every atom of the universe?without it, all matter would fly apart. Up until recently, it was believed to be an unchanging force throughout time and space. But over the last two decades, Professor Webb has noticed anomalies in the fine structure constant whereby electromagnetic force measured in one particular direction of the universe seems ever so slightly different. "We found a hint that that number of the fine structure constant was different in certain regions of the universe. Not just as a function of time, but actually also in direction in the universe, which is really quite odd if it's correct ... but that's what we found." https://phys.org/news/2020-04-laws-nature-downright-weird-constant.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 15:06:29 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 11:06:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Beautiful Avatar like glowing plants are now real Message-ID: People have made glowing plants before but they only glowed dimly and for a short amount of time, but for the first time scientists have used genetic engineering to make a plant that glowed permanently, from the day it sprouted from a seed to the day it died, and it's 10 times brighter than any previous plant so it's easily visible to the naked eye. Plants with genetically encoded autoluminescence There already plans to commercialize and offer a range of glowing houseplants, I think they would sell because they really are beautiful, they'd be even better when they have more colors than just green. Timelapse video of incredible glowing plants growing John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 16:51:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 11:51:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beautiful Avatar like glowing plants are now real In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let's see, we already have glowing fish, don't we? Then plants, then cats and dogs, then people. Even better would be if it were temporary so that we could glow in colors for special occasions. Or maybe the colors can be tied to our emotional states : we literally get red when we are mad ; blue when we are depressed; green with envy ;yellow with happy. These could be very useful signals of what the person is feeling. If red, stay away or even run. Even further: we could create patterns of color on our skin, like our Flag. Temporary tatooes with bright colors, unlike the usually dismal ones on tatooes. Create the abilities with genetics, and turn them off and on with epigenetics. Cool! bill w On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:10 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > People have made glowing plants before but they only glowed dimly and for > a short amount of time, but for the first time scientists have used genetic > engineering to make a plant that glowed permanently, from the day it > sprouted from a seed to the day it died, and it's 10 times brighter than > any previous plant so it's easily visible to the naked eye. > > Plants with genetically encoded autoluminescence > > > There already plans to commercialize and offer a range of glowing > houseplants, I think they would sell because they really are beautiful, > they'd be even better when they have more colors than just green. > > Timelapse video of incredible glowing plants growing > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 17:25:34 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:25:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Beautiful Avatar like glowing plants are now real In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very cool! I already want one. SR Ballard > On Apr 29, 2020, at 10:06 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > People have made glowing plants before but they only glowed dimly and for a short amount of time, but for the first time scientists have used genetic engineering to make a plant that glowed permanently, from the day it sprouted from a seed to the day it died, and it's 10 times brighter than any previous plant so it's easily visible to the naked eye. > > Plants with genetically encoded autoluminescence > > There already plans to commercialize and offer a range of glowing houseplants, I think they would sell because they really are beautiful, they'd be even better when they have more colors than just green. > > Timelapse video of incredible glowing plants growing > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 17:44:02 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 10:44:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Since we discussed the pyramids before... Message-ID: <3A3BD02D-0726-491D-8A94-AE9370DA7E3E@gmail.com> http://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2020/04/12/who-was-the-pharaoh-of-the-exodus-really/ I recall we discussed the myth about the pyramids being built by slaves. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 29 17:34:59 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:34:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Stranger than fiction In-Reply-To: References: <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <758924424.1554518.1588181699124@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 05:17:37 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 3:44 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat wrote: >> This caused the NIAID, lead by Anthony Fauci, to give the virus lab in Wuhan China a $3.7 million grant to perform gain-of-function research in bat-borne coranaviruses because our labs were not secure enough? > That sentence may end in a question mark but it is not a question. So you don't think that if this information is verified, then it would have been poor judgement on the part of the U.S. government to outsource viral gain-of-function research deemed too dangerous to conduct in the United States to another country with a reputation for poor quality control on their exports? ? >>What peaceful purpose could a gain-of-function mutation in the SARS virus possibly serve? >??http://www.phe.gov/s3/dualuse/Documents/gain-of-function.pdf > I would have thought you could have guessed that if one small mutation can turn a mild virus into a world killer (think 1918 flu) then that fact would be good to know, because then we can be prepared and start developing a vaccine for it. Like it or not it's probably only a matter of time before that mutation does happen. But if you couldn't guess the answer to your question the answer is in the first sentence of the very article you recommended: "Gain-of-function studies, or research that improves the ability of a pathogen to cause disease, help define the fundamental nature of human-pathogen interactions, thereby enabling assessment of the pandemic potential of emerging infectious agents, informing public health and preparedness efforts, and furthering medical countermeasure development." So we pay another country to develop potential world-killers in the lab so that we can have a head start fighting it if it evolved naturally? Maybe that's staring into the abyss a little too long even if our intentions were good. It sure didn't help us in this situation. > As for the other article you recommend:? > https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/why-us-outsourced-bat-virus-research-to-wuhan/?fbclid=IwAR05XIyKjGNhcJO6RgdflBITizA_znxY05EA5ElaP4kSUm6T2sNFYI8X-U8 > I became a little suspicious of the article when it cited such world renowned virus experts as Fox News Lou Dobbs, and when it stated that Donald Trump was investigating the matter, the same very stable genius who investigated Barack Obama's birth certificate for years. I stopped reading when I came to this: > "in October 2014, because of public health concerns, the US government banned all federal funding on efforts to weaponize three viruses ? influenza, Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS)." > The US government hasn't authorized funds to weaponize any virus, or any bacteria either, since Nixon banned all offensive bioweapons research in 1969. Developing potential world-killers in the lab is a bad idea even if the motivation is defensive instead of offensive. Paying another country to do it for you because they are less strict about that sort of thing is an even worse idea.? If the providence of the article bothers you, here is another one: The controversial experiments and Wuhan lab suspected of starting the coronavirus pandemic If SARS-CoV-2 evolved naturally, then viral gain-of-function research did not achieve its stated goal of preparing us for this pandemic. On the other hand, if SARS-CoV-2 is mad-made, then viral gain-of-function research flat out CAUSED the pandemic. Neither case is very supportive of the practice. Stuart LaForge From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 29 18:26:16 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 18:26:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Stranger than fiction In-Reply-To: <758924424.1554518.1588181699124@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788@mail.yahoo.com> <758924424.1554518.1588181699124@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1404305268.1569845.1588184776177@mail.yahoo.com> For some reason the link to the story came out as plain text instead of hypertext. Here is the link. https://www.newsweek.com/controversial-wuhan-lab-experiments-that-may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503 Stuart LaForge On Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 11:20:19 AM PDT, The Avantguardian via extropy-chat wrote: On Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 05:17:37 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 3:44 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat wrote: >> This caused the NIAID, lead by Anthony Fauci, to give the virus lab in Wuhan China a $3.7 million grant to perform gain-of-function research in bat-borne coranaviruses because our labs were not secure enough? > That sentence may end in a question mark but it is not a question. So you don't think that if this information is verified, then it would have been poor judgement on the part of the U.S. government to outsource viral gain-of-function research deemed too dangerous to conduct in the United States to another country with a reputation for poor quality control on their exports? ? >>What peaceful purpose could a gain-of-function mutation in the SARS virus possibly serve? >??http://www.phe.gov/s3/dualuse/Documents/gain-of-function.pdf > I would have thought you could have guessed that if one small mutation can turn a mild virus into a world killer (think 1918 flu) then that fact would be good to know, because then we can be prepared and start developing a vaccine for it. Like it or not it's probably only a matter of time before that mutation does happen. But if you couldn't guess the answer to your question the answer is in the first sentence of the very article you recommended: "Gain-of-function studies, or research that improves the ability of a pathogen to cause disease, help define the fundamental nature of human-pathogen interactions, thereby enabling assessment of the pandemic potential of emerging infectious agents, informing public health and preparedness efforts, and furthering medical countermeasure development." So we pay another country to develop potential world-killers in the lab so that we can have a head start fighting it if it evolved naturally? Maybe that's staring into the abyss a little too long even if our intentions were good. It sure didn't help us in this situation. > As for the other article you recommend:? > https://asiatimes.com/2020/04/why-us-outsourced-bat-virus-research-to-wuhan/?fbclid=IwAR05XIyKjGNhcJO6RgdflBITizA_znxY05EA5ElaP4kSUm6T2sNFYI8X-U8 > I became a little suspicious of the article when it cited such world renowned virus experts as Fox News Lou Dobbs, and when it stated that Donald Trump was investigating the matter, the same very stable genius who investigated Barack Obama's birth certificate for years. I stopped reading when I came to this: > "in October 2014, because of public health concerns, the US government banned all federal funding on efforts to weaponize three viruses ? influenza, Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS)." > The US government hasn't authorized funds to weaponize any virus, or any bacteria either, since Nixon banned all offensive bioweapons research in 1969. Developing potential world-killers in the lab is a bad idea even if the motivation is defensive instead of offensive. Paying another country to do it for you because they are less strict about that sort of thing is an even worse idea.? If the providence of the article bothers you, here is another one: The controversial experiments and Wuhan lab suspected of starting the coronavirus pandemic If SARS-CoV-2 evolved naturally, then viral gain-of-function research did not achieve its stated goal of preparing us for this pandemic. On the other hand, if SARS-CoV-2 is mad-made, then viral gain-of-function research flat out CAUSED the pandemic. Neither case is very supportive of the practice. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From robot at ultimax.com Wed Apr 29 19:58:38 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:58:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was one day off this sad milestone. I was not expecting the daily death rate to spike again to a near-9/11-equivalent per day. Granted, these curves are squirrelly. Spike, you gotta stop saying "this is like the flu". It is not flu. You are going to get people killed with that advice. K3 On 2020-04-29 15:07, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:08:49 -0400 > From: John Clark > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War > > It took the Vietnam War 12 years to kill 47,424 Americans in combat, > 58,209 > if you include non combat deaths. As of today April 28 at 19:52 GMT > COVID-19 has killed 58,269 Americans and it did it in less than 2 > months. > The US only has 4% of the world's population but, even though it is a > rich > technologically advanced country and had a month more time to prepare > for > the virus than other nations, it has 33% of the world's COVID-19 cases. > There is a reason the US squandered those advantages, and if you're > honest > with yourself you know what that reason is. That reason thinks Clorox > injections and sticking a UV flashlight up your ass can cure disease, > and > that's why I'm not a big fan of enablers of that reason, like Julian > Assange for example. > > By the way, the official death numbers I gave above are almost > certainly > way too low. The Yale School of Public Health found that between March > 1 > and April 4 15,000 more Americans died than what you'd expect > statistically, but only 8,000 officially had the word "COVID-19" on the > death certificate, and the discrepancy was largest in places that were > hit > the hardest with COVID-19. > > Estimating the early death toll of COVID-19 in the United States > From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 20:09:55 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:09:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] book why Message-ID: I am again offering this book to anyone who desires it, whether it is in your area or not. One of you first indicated a desire for it but has not replied to my request for an address to send it to, and so it is again available. First come, first serve. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 21:01:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:01:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stranger than fiction In-Reply-To: <758924424.1554518.1588181699124@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788@mail.yahoo.com> <758924424.1554518.1588181699124@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 2:22 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > So you don't think that if this information is verified, then it would > have been poor judgement on the part of the U.S. government to outsource > viral gain-of-function research deemed too dangerous to conduct in the > United States to another country with a reputation for poor quality control > on their exports?* I thought we were talking about China. Inside the Chinese lab poised to study world's most dangerous pathogens The Wuhan wet market may not know how to safely work with dangerous viruses but, according to Nature, the BLS-4 lab in Wuhan does; like all officially certified BLS-4 labs it has the highest level of biocontainment. If great minds at Fox News like Lou Dobbs makes a proclamation about viruses and Nature says the opposite I would tent to side with Nature until new facts come to light and Occam's razor makes me change my mind. > *So we pay another country to develop potential world-killers in the lab > so that we can have a head start fighting it if it evolved naturally?* Yes. > * >It sure didn't help us in this situation.* > It might have if we'd done it 5 years earlier. > *Paying another country to do it for you because they are less strict > about that sort of thing is an even worse idea. * > Yes that would be a bad idea, but I thought we were talking about China. In all this the one country that has demonstrated total ineptitude in the way they handle dangerous viruses is the USA. And by the way, the 1918 flu that killed close to 100 million people worldwide may have been called the "Spanish" flu but it probably started in the USA, in Haskell County Kansas. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 21:16:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:16:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 4:11 PM Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I was one day off this sad milestone. * Yes but that was way back in the olden days of 24 hours ago when COVID-19 had only officially killed 58,269 Americans, as of right now 21:03 GMT it has officially killed 61,112 Americans. The true number is probably 50% higher. But at least we have Clorox and a very stable genius to give us hope. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 29 21:45:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 14:45:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009601d61e6f$85a53c10$90efb430$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat Cc: robot at ultimax.com Subject: Re: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War I was one day off this sad milestone. I was not expecting the daily death rate to spike again to a near-9/11-equivalent per day. Granted, these curves are squirrelly. Spike, you gotta stop saying "this is like the flu". It is not flu. You are going to get people killed with that advice. K3 Hi K3, I don't recall saying this was like the flu or offering anyone advice. If what I had in December was C-19, do let me assure you, it was not like any flu I ever had, or anything else I have ever had. My suggestion is that the house-arrest notion might be exactly the wrong thing: they should be shutting down subways, airlines, cruise lines and buses. If we have strict house arrest, anyone infected in the family would infect everyone else in that home. I will note that New York and New Jersey, two states completely dependent on mass transit to get proles in and out of their mega-metropolis, account for more C-19 deaths than the other 48 states combined. My friend from upstate New York reminds me that nearly all of their case load is right down there in NYNY, not in New York state. Subways and overcrowding are the big factors spreading this, not the beaches and businesses. spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Apr 29 23:00:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 16:00:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War In-Reply-To: <009601d61e6f$85a53c10$90efb430$@rainier66.com> References: <009601d61e6f$85a53c10$90efb430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009a01d61e7a$0ab00700$20101500$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com >...My suggestion is that the house-arrest notion might be exactly the wrong thing: they should be shutting down subways, airlines, cruise lines and buses. If we have strict house arrest, anyone infected in the family would infect everyone else in that home...spike I had an idea. We are trying to count these C-19 cases by nation, by state, by county, etc, but we can see that over time, the case load converges to numbers that are more a function of how much international travel a country has. The US is a capitalist country, so there is a lot of money sloshing around, and proles tend to spend it on international travel. Businesses prosper from international business, which results in international travel. If we look at all the hardest-hit nations, they are ones with lots of travel. Makes sense. Now let's look at it a different way. Suppose we create a contour map based on population density. Analogous to how we make elevation contour maps by connecting places with the same altitude, we connect places which have the same population density to create a population density map. If we do that, we will find a huge population density map in the biggest and densest metropolis in the US: New York, with some of it spilling over into New Jersey. OK then. If you go to Google maps and choose anywhere at random in New York outside the city, select any place you want and zoom in, go to street view. Most of it is rural. Same with New Jersey: once you get very far from Newark, and the metropolis that is all part of NY city, that is rural too. Now overlay a map of C-19 cases, expressed in cases per million (the only metric which makes much sense (or deaths per million if you prefer.)) We will see that the case density follows the population density. This isn't a bit hard to understand why. It has little or nothing to do with politics, or if so, only indirectly: densely populated regions make a lotta money, so they do a lotta international travel. Result: case load goes up. The problem becomes clear: if decisions on how to deal are done at the federal level, the conditions are vastly different from one state to the next. If done at a state level the conditions are vastly different, with the metropolis areas making decisions that apply to the rural areas where the conditions are very different. Perhaps the best thing is for city governments to decide how to best handle the crisis. Do let me suggest shutting down the subways, planes, trains, ocean liners and buses forthwith. spike From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 23:52:05 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 19:52:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] deaths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > What will be the effect of opening up? More deaths > ### It does not seem that lock-down has a statistically detectable effect on the total number of deaths. States and countries without lockdowns are doing better than states with lockdowns. Lockdowns reduce the infectious agent R0 and thus reduce the incidence rate but the effect is minor. On the other hand lockdowns increase some other causes of death, for example due to depression, poverty, stress, and lack of medical care for people with deadly conditions who fail to to the hospital due to anxiety. The overall effect of lockdowns on crude all cause mortality is likely to be undetectable (on top of the Wuhan virus having a small effect on total mortality to begin with) or possibly even unfavorable. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 23:52:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 18:52:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War In-Reply-To: <009601d61e6f$85a53c10$90efb430$@rainier66.com> References: <009601d61e6f$85a53c10$90efb430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How do we feel about the NYC major breaking up a big crowd of Orthodox Jews? As libertarians we might say that if they want to expose themselves, it's their right, and of there is the Bill of Rights. But then their children are not being given a choice, so the mayor may be saving lives. bill w On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > On Behalf Of Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat > Cc: robot at ultimax.com > Subject: Re: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War > > I was one day off this sad milestone. I was not expecting the daily death > rate to spike again to a near-9/11-equivalent per day. Granted, these > curves are squirrelly. > > Spike, you gotta stop saying "this is like the flu". It is not flu. > You are going to get people killed with that advice. > > K3 > > > > > > > Hi K3, > > I don't recall saying this was like the flu or offering anyone advice. > > If what I had in December was C-19, do let me assure you, it was not like > any flu I ever had, or anything else I have ever had. > > My suggestion is that the house-arrest notion might be exactly the wrong > thing: they should be shutting down subways, airlines, cruise lines and > buses. If we have strict house arrest, anyone infected in the family would > infect everyone else in that home. > > I will note that New York and New Jersey, two states completely dependent > on > mass transit to get proles in and out of their mega-metropolis, account for > more C-19 deaths than the other 48 states combined. My friend from upstate > New York reminds me that nearly all of their case load is right down there > in NYNY, not in New York state. > > Subways and overcrowding are the big factors spreading this, not the > beaches > and businesses. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 00:03:35 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 20:03:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] thawing of ai winter? In-Reply-To: References: <002601d614ce$56056160$02102420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:51 AM Angel Z. Lopez wrote: > if the brain doesn't have the ability to recondition itself then maybe > this game of life is in fact all a predetermined outcome? > ### About 20 - 30% of most psychological traits (personality, IQ, various disease risks) is environmental or stochastic, while the remaining 70 - 80% is genetic. So yes, the game of life is to a large extent but not completely predetermined. However, I wouldn't say that the brain doesn't have the ability to recondition itself - while it does rely on a lot of prewired structure for various basic processing tasks, the highest levels of our cognition are much more responsive to new knowledge and allow us to rise above the level of automata. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 00:09:00 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 20:09:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] More deaths from COVID-19 than Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d609dc$72ad3f60$5807be20$@rainier66.com> <014d01d61407$d412b250$7c3816f0$@rainier66.com> <004401d6144d$3cd97590$b68c60b0$@rainier66.com> <003a01d61455$80744ed0$815cec70$@rainier66.com> <005901d614b9$7399e8a0$5acdb9e0$@rainier66.com> <003e01d61504$5ed3a730$1c7af590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 7:32 PM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > But do you really think the main reason Trump does not make himself > supreme leader for life is that he is afraid of people in their homes with > guns? > >> > ### Oh, Trump does not make himself the supreme leader because he is a nice, reasonable person. OTOH, Democratic party politicians, being status-maximizing psychopaths, want to become supreme leaders, each and every one of them, which is why they are so dead-set on taking our guns away. Once they succeed, one of them will rise to the top by defeating others (like Xi did recently in China), and with future life-extension medicine will rule forever. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 00:12:44 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 10:12:44 +1000 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War In-Reply-To: References: <009601d61e6f$85a53c10$90efb430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 at 10:00, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How do we feel about the NYC major breaking up a big crowd of Orthodox > Jews? As libertarians we might say that if they want to expose themselves, > it's their right, and of there is the Bill of Rights. > > But then their children are not being given a choice, so the mayor may be > saving lives. > > bill w > They are endangering everyone they come into contact with. On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> > On Behalf Of Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat >> Cc: robot at ultimax.com >> Subject: Re: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War >> >> I was one day off this sad milestone. I was not expecting the daily death >> rate to spike again to a near-9/11-equivalent per day. Granted, these >> curves are squirrelly. >> >> Spike, you gotta stop saying "this is like the flu". It is not flu. >> You are going to get people killed with that advice. >> >> K3 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi K3, >> >> I don't recall saying this was like the flu or offering anyone advice. >> >> If what I had in December was C-19, do let me assure you, it was not like >> any flu I ever had, or anything else I have ever had. >> >> My suggestion is that the house-arrest notion might be exactly the wrong >> thing: they should be shutting down subways, airlines, cruise lines and >> buses. If we have strict house arrest, anyone infected in the family >> would >> infect everyone else in that home. >> >> I will note that New York and New Jersey, two states completely dependent >> on >> mass transit to get proles in and out of their mega-metropolis, account >> for >> more C-19 deaths than the other 48 states combined. My friend from >> upstate >> New York reminds me that nearly all of their case load is right down there >> in NYNY, not in New York state. >> >> Subways and overcrowding are the big factors spreading this, not the >> beaches >> and businesses. >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 00:34:04 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 20:34:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d6135a$9b799830$d26cc890$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:57 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > More thoughts: > > Wolfram?s digital physics is fully deterministic, which seems to > exclude free will. But there is computational irreducibility... > > > https://turingchurch.net/computational-irreducibility-in-wolframs-digital-physics-and-free-will-e413e496eb0a > > ### It took me a few tries but I finally finished reading the article ( https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2020/04/finally-we-may-have-a-path-to-the-fundamental-theory-of-physics-and-its-beautiful/ and some companion texts) a few days ago and my mind is blown. This is the most amazing, fantastic and beautiful vision of physics that I ever encountered. I might be prejudiced here, since I have for a very long time believed that our world is made of simple mathematical objects. About 20 years ago on this list I wrote vaguely about these ideas, about sheaves of mathematical entities splitting and joining to produce the structure of the world, about finding the simplest mathematical object that could give rise to the observable world, about modal realism, this kind of philosophising. In my mind I envisioned graphs or trees of infinitely splitting branches that generate reality but of course I wasn't getting anywhere with my dreams. Now Wolfram presents a powerful way of generating mathematical structures that have amazing connections to many aspects of known physics. He and his collaborators found structures that create time, energy, entanglement, and space, all naturally developing without the need to put them in by hand. This is amazing and truly beautiful. I just wrote "amazing" three times! Amazing! Determinism is of course not a problem. Dennett provides a definitive analysis in... I think... "Freedom Evolves" - I am not sure in which one of his books I read it. Determinism is fully compatible with free will, in fact, physical determinism is necessary for free will to exist. But that's a whole another thread. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 01:20:34 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 21:20:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 9:34 AM John Clark wrote: > > Since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the USA, > beating cancer and stroke and heart disease and everything else. Stampedes > are not always a bad thing, it seems to me the prospect of mass death would > be a very good reason to start a mass stampede. > > COVID-19 is now the leading cause of death in the United States > > > ### Wuhan virus mortality is more like a rounding error on all cause mortality. About 2.8 million Americans will die this year. About 90 - 120 thousand of those deaths will be due to Wuhan virus. You won't even notice a bump on the decadal graph of mortality. Sad, but this is life - it goes on, and then you die. Unless you get frozen - Remember to work on your Alcor applications, dear list members! Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 01:22:29 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 11:22:29 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for fundamental physics In-Reply-To: References: <001d01d6135a$9b799830$d26cc890$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 at 5:57 pm, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > More thoughts: > > Wolfram?s digital physics is fully deterministic, which seems to > exclude free will. But there is computational irreducibility... > > > https://turingchurch.net/computational-irreducibility-in-wolframs-digital-physics-and-free-will-e413e496eb0a You assume that free will and determinism are incompatible, but that is not the view of the majority of philosophers or the majority of laypeople. It seems to be mainly amateur philosophers (which includes scientists) who assume incompatibility. > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 7:21 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > > > I tried to post this a couple of days ago, but there was an error. > Retrying. > > > > From the FAQ: > > > > Q: What does your model say about the simulation argument? > > > > A: The model implies that there is a definite computational rule that > > determines every aspect of what happens in our universe. If the > > universe is to be considered a ?simulation? this would suggest that > > the rule is being determined by something outside the system, and > > presumably in an ?intentional? way. It is difficult enough to extend > > the notion of intentionality far beyond the specifics of what humans > > do, making it unrealistic to attribute it to something beyond even the > > universe. In addition, the concept of rule-space relativity implies > > that in a sense all possible rules are equivalent, at least to an > > appropriate observer, and therefore there would be nothing for an > > entity setting up the simulation to ?intentionally decide??since any > > rule they could choose would appear to be the same universe to > > observers embedded within it. > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 9:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf > Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Stephen Wolfram proposes new framework for > fundamental physics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://turingchurch.net/stephen-wolfram-proposes-new-framework-for-fundamental-physics-629833845470 > > > > > > > > > > > > >?He would seem to have rediscovered the concept of Planck scale. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing to worry about is if he discovers this is all a digital > simulation. If you really ponder Church-Turing, it doesn?t seem too > far-fetched. But hey, perhaps it is a good thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 01:25:28 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 21:25:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shops opening In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d614cb$c99dd8d0$5cd98a70$@rainier66.com> <001d01d614d3$ddeb03f0$99c10bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't believe John has gotten this memo unfortunately. Meanwhile the world's economy burns while we suffer from a bad flu (yes, I'll own it, this is not much worse than a particularly bad flu that focuses on the elderly and/or those with one or more comorbidities). On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 9:22 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 9:34 AM John Clark wrote: > >> >> Since April 7 COVID-19 has been the leading cause of death in the USA, >> beating cancer and stroke and heart disease and everything else. Stampedes >> are not always a bad thing, it seems to me the prospect of mass death would >> be a very good reason to start a mass stampede. >> >> COVID-19 is now the leading cause of death in the United States >> >> >> > ### Wuhan virus mortality is more like a rounding error on all cause > mortality. About 2.8 million Americans will die this year. About 90 - 120 > thousand of those deaths will be due to Wuhan virus. You won't even notice > a bump on the decadal graph of mortality. > > Sad, but this is life - it goes on, and then you die. > > Unless you get frozen - Remember to work on your Alcor applications, dear > list members! > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 01:33:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 21:33:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: References: <838f71de-edc4-fcff-9626-5501fa3f6f81@zaiboc.net> <030b01d6175f$ad013dc0$0703b940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 10:23 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > levance and meaning are value judgements made up by humans, without any > objective basis. There is nothing in physics to say that a speck of dust is > less meaningful than a galaxy. > ### I disagree. Our feelings were produced after billions of years of living things' evolution, all according to physical law. This is a very objective basis. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 01:39:20 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 21:39:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] No gods, no meaning? (was: Re: Existing as stored data) In-Reply-To: References: <0ea87621-beeb-f7f1-cdc5-d8b83f37c25b@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:59 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 7:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> That's my answer if anyone ever asks me what the meaning of life is. >> You Decide.* > > > I agree good answer. You and I are the ones in the meaning conferring > business not the external universe. A cloud of hydrogen gas ten billion > light years away can't give us meaning but we can give meaning to it. I > don't need God or anything else to pat me on the head and give me His seal > of approval. > ### I completely agree with both of you here. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 01:51:05 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 21:51:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1c5026e5-b7b5-9237-674b-0f431eef605c@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:18 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > So the real problem is, how do you deal with those who try to alter the > data of reality in that manner (and fail, though they may preach their > claims loudly enough to convince some people), rather than accepting the > world as it is and adjusting their beliefs accordingly? > ### Non-Bayesian minds do not update on some aspects of available evidence. If you know a mind is such a non-Bayesian, it's useless to argue with it, since arguments are just another type of evidence that it cannot update on. All we can do is to observe, detect dangers that might be posed by such minds, and use appropriate defensive and offensive tactics to respond to danger. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 02:02:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 21:02:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1c5026e5-b7b5-9237-674b-0f431eef605c@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: If I may ask: would you summarize just what a Bayesian and a nonBayesian mind is? The formula and how it is used I know. Thanks! bill w On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 9:00 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:18 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> So the real problem is, how do you deal with those who try to alter the >> data of reality in that manner (and fail, though they may preach their >> claims loudly enough to convince some people), rather than accepting the >> world as it is and adjusting their beliefs accordingly? >> > > ### Non-Bayesian minds do not update on some aspects of available > evidence. If you know a mind is such a non-Bayesian, it's useless to argue > with it, since arguments are just another type of evidence that it cannot > update on. All we can do is to observe, detect dangers that might be posed > by such minds, and use appropriate defensive and offensive tactics to > respond to danger. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 02:09:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 22:09:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 71 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:31 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ben - Great question! People have attempted to answer this over decades > and along the way discovered transposons and "jumping genes". For the > details you could look up the work of prof Barbara McClintock, also profs > Andrew Pohorille (of NASA Ames) and Stuart Kauffman. > > Basic idea is that sub-systems of highly complex, hierarchical systems can > split off and transfer from one system to another. Viruses are usually > considered non living because they are obligate parasites and co-opt other > organisims' metabolisms to propagate. > > So they did not evolve to be a simpler system. They evolved from complex > systems as a sub-system, not as separate self-sufficient organisms. They > are not even metabolically complete - ie, they can't live on their own, or > replicate on their own, and instead depend utterly on hosts. > ### Dunno. There are multiple cases of animals and plants undergoing dramatic simplification of their function during both phylogeny and ontogeny. There are parasites that started out with having a nervous system and then devolved to just chunks of flesh. There are sessile marine animals that start out as free-swimming, active larvae and then radically simplify their body, while usually increasing in size. Animals that lose senses after moving to caves. There is no general tendency for any given species to become more complex. Depending on the situation, a species can evolve for more complexity or devolve - and the actual course of evolution depends on the availability of ecological niches adjacent to the niche currently occupied by that species. For many species, the mutational catastrophe imposes hard limits on available configuration space - they can't just build more complexity because the speed of information loss due to random mutations exceeds their ability to accumulate new and useful (i.e. fitness-enhancing) information. On the other hand, the ecosystem as a whole tends to become more complex - the existence of one level of complexity (i.e. improved intracellular signaling, improved DNA repair, targeted DNA mutation) opens the space to explore next levels of development (respectively for the above examples, multicellularity, long chromosomes, adaptive immune systems), and with enough species available these new levels are explored, eventually opening even more opportunities for building complexity. Some species evolve, some devolve but the whole ecosystem (ecosphere) gets bigger and more complicated, at least until the next asteroid strike. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 02:11:01 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 12:11:01 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: References: <838f71de-edc4-fcff-9626-5501fa3f6f81@zaiboc.net> <030b01d6175f$ad013dc0$0703b940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 at 11:48, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 10:23 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> levance and meaning are value judgements made up by humans, without any >> objective basis. There is nothing in physics to say that a speck of dust is >> less meaningful than a galaxy. >> > > ### I disagree. Our feelings were produced after billions of years of > living things' evolution, all according to physical law. This is a very > objective basis. > That is a description of how feelings came about; but where is the physical law that says something that was produced after billions of years of evolution is important, or more important than something produced after a shorter period? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 02:22:26 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 22:22:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:51 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Keith. I think atheism is, as you say, "a lack of religion rather > than a religion" in non-militant atheists. But in those militant > atheists who passionately want to convert others, and even more so in > those militant atheists who discriminate against believers in academy, > culture, media etc., atheism becomes a religion, and of the worst > kind. ### Militant atheism might fill up the god-shaped hole some people have in their minds, thus taking the place of religion as a focus of social and organized activity, but it still is not a religion. Same with communism, environmentalism or social justice - they are mental constructs that organize the activity of many people, just like religions, but although they may replace religion in their minds, they are not religions themselves. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 02:29:36 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 19:29:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War Message-ID: wrote: snip > If what I had in December was C-19, do let me assure you, Spike, I *really* doubt anyone in the US had Covid=19 in Dec. But you should get tested for antibodies against it. If you did have COVID-19 that early, it would be of great interest to the CDC. Keith From interzone at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 02:52:15 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 22:52:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FYI, Quest is now offering antibody tests. I'm relatively confident I had Covid-19 in mid January (I work in NYC and had a terrible upper respiratory infection at that point, and was flu negative based on quick test). Even if I didn't have it then, I'm relatively confident I was likely exposed at Madison Square Garden (~20K people in one spot in NYC) on March 10th for a concert the day before they shut the city down. I'm headed in on May 5th to Quest for the blood draw. I will report back to the list once I have results. On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:33 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > wrote: > > snip > > > If what I had in December was C-19, do let me assure you, > > Spike, I *really* doubt anyone in the US had Covid=19 in Dec. But you > should get tested for antibodies against it. If you did have COVID-19 > that early, it would be of great interest to the CDC. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 02:52:43 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 22:52:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It divides societies between the paid and not paid. > ### I am one of the paid ones. I have not missed a night off work, keep doing my 12 hour shifts seven nights a week, 31 days a month, hopefully 350 nights a year spent in the hospital. The lockdowns so far have not harmed, merely inconvenienced me. And yet I am quite passionately opposed to lockdowns, lock, stock and barrel. We the people must be allowed to make the tradeoffs regarding our lives. If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up on most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance of dying, depending on your demographic. But the rest of us must be able to decide what kind of risk to accept for what kind of reward. Us going out, mingling and sharing our diverse bacteria, viruses and even protozoa does not stop the cowering ones from cowering, does not inflict any added risk of infection on them, since they cower at home, while we mingle outside. To each his own. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 03:09:31 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 23:09:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A fly on the wall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 2:53 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I explained that I had bought four identical shirts and three > identical sets of pants to give the impression I had only one set of > clothes. She thought it was very funny. > > ### I have 60 pairs of identical black socks. Luckily, I never had to work in any place with a dress code. I'm wearing scrubs now... and black socks. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 30 03:34:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 20:34:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <018201d61ea0$53f6c450$fbe44cf0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] COVID-19 has killed more Americans than the Vietnam War wrote: snip > If what I had in December was C-19, do let me assure you, Spike, I *really* doubt anyone in the US had Covid=19 in Dec. But you should get tested for antibodies against it. If you did have COVID-19 that early, it would be of great interest to the CDC. Keith _______________________________________________ I would doubt it too, except for having had contact with person who had been in China the week before. Actually I doubt it anyway: estimate 20% chance: worth being tested, not worth getting overly worrying about it. Isolated carefully, long before it came in vogue. I dropped a note to my doctor to ask what I should do. spike From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 03:40:02 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 23:40:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stranger than fiction In-Reply-To: References: <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2089933478.1367486.1588144839788@mail.yahoo.com> <758924424.1554518.1588181699124@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 5:04 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 2:22 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> * > So you don't think that if this information is verified, then it >> would have been poor judgement on the part of the U.S. government to >> outsource viral gain-of-function research deemed too dangerous to conduct >> in the United States to another country with a reputation for poor quality >> control on their exports?* > > > I thought we were talking about China. > > Inside the Chinese lab poised to study world's most dangerous pathogens > > > The Wuhan wet market may not know how to safely work with dangerous > viruses but, according to Nature, the BLS-4 lab in Wuhan does; like all > officially certified BLS-4 labs it has the highest level of biocontainment. > ### They did their coronavirus work at BLS-2, which is why the State Department flagged that lab two years ago as problematic. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 04:55:18 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 00:55:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Existing as stored data In-Reply-To: References: <838f71de-edc4-fcff-9626-5501fa3f6f81@zaiboc.net> <030b01d6175f$ad013dc0$0703b940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:11 PM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 at 11:48, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 10:23 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> levance and meaning are value judgements made up by humans, without any >>> objective basis. There is nothing in physics to say that a speck of dust is >>> less meaningful than a galaxy. >>> >> >> ### I disagree. Our feelings were produced after billions of years of >> living things' evolution, all according to physical law. This is a very >> objective basis. >> > > That is a description of how feelings came about; but where is the > physical law that says something that was produced after billions of years > of evolution is important, or more important than something produced after > a shorter period? > ### I am not saying there are physical laws that say something is important, I am noting that our feelings about the importance of various things are not merely made up, they have an objective explanation. Perhaps I should remark that our feelings have an objective explanation but not an objective justification. The justification of feelings is still subjective. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 05:03:49 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 01:03:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1c5026e5-b7b5-9237-674b-0f431eef605c@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:03 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > If I may ask: would you summarize just what a Bayesian and a nonBayesian > mind is? The formula and how it is used I know. > ### I used this term in a clumsy way, more or less trying to say that a Bayesian mind ascribes P values from the interval between 0 and 1 to all beliefs, a completely non-Bayesian mind uses 1 or 0 for all beliefs, and then there are all those minds in between. That was an imprecise expression but I hope it gets the meaning across. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Apr 30 07:27:12 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 08:27:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Evolved Complexity (was: Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 105) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7208fc42-ac12-afad-bac6-56801ef788f9@zaiboc.net> On 30/04/2020 06:04, Rafal wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:31 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > Ben - Great question! People have attempted to answer this over > decades and along the way discovered transposons and "jumping > genes". For the details you could look up the work of prof Barbara > McClintock, also profs Andrew Pohorille (of NASA Ames) and Stuart > Kauffman. > > Basic idea is that sub-systems of highly complex, hierarchical > systems can split off and transfer from one system to another. > Viruses are usually considered non living because they are > obligate parasites and co-opt other organisims' metabolisms to > propagate. > > So they did not evolve to be a simpler system. They evolved from > complex systems as a sub-system, not as separate self-sufficient > organisms. They are not even metabolically complete - ie, they > can't live on their own, or replicate on their own, and instead > depend utterly on hosts. > > > ### Dunno. There are multiple cases of animals and plants undergoing > dramatic simplification of their function during both phylogeny and > ontogeny. There are parasites that started out with having a nervous > system and then devolved to just chunks of flesh. There are sessile > marine animals that start out as free-swimming, active larvae and then > radically simplify their body, while usually increasing in size. > Animals that lose senses after moving to caves. > > There is no general tendency for any given species to become more > complex. Depending on the situation, a species can evolve for more > complexity or devolve - and the actual course of evolution depends on > the availability of ecological niches adjacent to the niche currently > occupied by that species. For many species, the mutational catastrophe > imposes hard limits on available configuration space - they can't just > build more complexity because the speed of information loss due to > random mutations exceeds their ability to accumulate new and useful > (i.e. fitness-enhancing) information. > > On the other hand, the ecosystem as a whole tends to become more > complex - the existence of one level of complexity (i.e. improved > intracellular signaling, improved DNA repair, targeted DNA mutation) > opens the space to explore next levels of development (respectively > for the above examples, multicellularity, long chromosomes, adaptive > immune systems), and with enough species available these new levels > are explored, eventually opening even more opportunities for building > complexity. Some species evolve, some devolve but the whole ecosystem > (ecosphere) gets bigger and more complicated, at least until the next > asteroid strike. > The virus example may be arguable, they are rather bizarre things after all, but as Rafal points out, there are plenty of examples of metabolically complete organisms evolving less complexity. But ecosystems, or at least the ecosphere as a whole, tending toward more complexity is an interesting idea. If true (which it seems, at first glance, to be), then evolution /does/ produce more complexity. That's something I've never considered before, and I'm wondering what the implications of it might be. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Thu Apr 30 07:38:34 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 13:08:34 +0530 Subject: [ExI] book why In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are you referring to the 'book of why'? &Kunvar On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 1:48 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am again offering this book to anyone who desires it, whether it is in > your area or not. > > One of you first indicated a desire for it but has not replied to my > request for an address to send it to, and so it is again available. > > First come, first serve. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Apr 30 08:02:41 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 09:02:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30/04/2020 06:04, Rafal wrote: > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:51 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > Hi Keith. I think atheism is, as you say, "a lack of religion rather > than a religion" in non-militant atheists. But in those militant > atheists who passionately want to convert others, and even more so in > those militant atheists who discriminate against believers in academy, > culture, media etc., atheism becomes a religion, and of the worst > kind. > > > ### Militant atheism might fill up the god-shaped hole some people > have in their minds, thus taking the place of religion as a focus of > social and organized activity, but it still is not a religion. Same > with communism, environmentalism or social justice - they are mental > constructs that organize the activity of many people, just like > religions, but although they may replace religion in their minds, they > are not religions themselves. > Could anyone who feels the desire to use the term 'militant atheist/atheism', please at least read this before they do so? https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Militant_atheism In particular, the part about the term promoting a double-standard? Derogation is fair enough, but I do object to misrepresentation. Being outspoken is not militancy. If it were, every church and religious apologist would be a militant, and it would be more difficult to distinguish between people who talk a lot about their convictions, and people who shoot (and bomb, and behead, etc.) a lot about them. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 10:09:57 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 06:09:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolved Complexity (was: Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 105) In-Reply-To: <7208fc42-ac12-afad-bac6-56801ef788f9@zaiboc.net> References: <7208fc42-ac12-afad-bac6-56801ef788f9@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:29 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > But ecosystems, or at least the ecosphere as a whole, tending toward more > complexity is an interesting idea. If true (which it seems, at first > glance, to be), then evolution *does* produce more complexity. That's > something I've never considered before, and I'm wondering what the > implications of it might be. > ### Complexity is built on complexity. As soon as some spots in the universe accumulate some complexity, more complexity can develop in those areas. This goes beyond the living world and the ecosphere - it's a story arc that spans infinities. I keep coming back in my thoughts to Wolfram's new physics. He starts with the simplest possible, irreducible entities and the simplest possible, irreducible operations, concepts seemingly devoid of a relationship to physics and yet he finds they are capable of generating analogues of surprisingly high-level physical concepts. In his vision, what the naive mind might see as simple things, such as space, vacuum, or electrons are in fact made of a stupendous number of irreducible objects/relationships. The humble electron has 10e35 pieces of math in it. The final, indivisible, elementary length is 10e58 times smaller than Planck length. It takes a lot of moving parts to create a quark, it takes millions of years to transform a soup of quarks into galaxies made of boring hydrogen, it takes billions of years to cook up heavier elements out of the hydrogen, it takes hundreds of millions of years to create planets with alkaline seeps in the primordial seas, hundreds of millions of years to create the first self-replicating creatures, it takes about a billion years before some of the creatures to develop nervous systems, then another 700 million years before some of the nervous systems invent the scientific method, then another 500 years before non-biological thinking can develop on the substrate of biological creatures... (You notice the abrupt change in time-scale here, from billions to hundreds of years? An interesting tidbit). And what next? I don't know what's next but it's clear that complexity has created more complexity since forever, every step of the way enabled only after mind-bogglingly large numbers of moving parts come together in just the right way. There is more complexity coming, if not in our neck of the woods, then somewhere else in the infinite garden of all self-consistent mathematical objects (yes, Jason, if you read it, I am a modal realist, too). Wolfram's notion of time is much different from the concept of time in mainstream physics, including general relativity. His measure of time as the number of elementary operations needed to create a hypergraph is incredibly appealing to me in an intuitive way. Time so conceived has a beginning but not an end, since hypergraphs are not limited in the number of elements they can contain. There is no end to complexity in general, although not all branches of the mathematical tree go on forever. He is not the first thinker to come up with the "It from bit" idea but to the best of my knowledge he is the first researcher to move it from a neat quip, or Game of Life antics to an actual research program. I hope that more amazing things come out of it. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 10:22:09 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 06:22:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 4:04 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Could anyone who feels the desire to use the term 'militant > atheist/atheism', please at least read this before they do so? > > https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Militant_atheism > > In particular, the part about the term promoting a double-standard? > > Derogation is fair enough, but I do object to misrepresentation. > > Being outspoken is not militancy. If it were, every church and religious > apologist would be a militant, and it would be more difficult to > distinguish between people who talk a lot about their convictions, and > people who shoot (and bomb, and behead, etc.) a lot about them. > ### I used the "militant atheism" term at the risk of being misunderstood but I am most definitely not referring to Mssrs Dawkins et al. here. For me militant atheists are Russian Communists who blew up the Great Sobor and killed priests, and the Chicoms who persecute Christians, Muslims and just about everybody else, and some US officials who abuse their power to force various modern social fads on the rest of us. Oh, I just read the article you linked to and looks like I am using the term correctly. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu Apr 30 11:39:51 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 07:39:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 71 Message-ID: Nice comment Rafal, your post clarified what I glossed over - thank you! :) I posited that systems tend to increase in complexity, but as you correctly point out a biological system is not defined solely at the orgainismal level (such as, yes, poor little male barnacles, eyeless cave fish and toads, and even at the organ level such as the appendix, or at the DNA level such as in acumulation of some of the "junk" DNA, etc) but also at the ecosystem level. Individual orgamisims can and do adapt by simplifying, as often this is biologically "cheaper" and thus advantagous locally (to the organisim itself). One of my favorite examples of this loss-of-function happening at the biomoleular level is the Biebricher et al series of papers on Q-beta replicase, a viral RNA-replicating enzyme that, when put into an undemanding (i.e., nutrient rich, with no need to infect other cells to reproduce), loses much of its structure due to a rapid loss of sequence information as it undergoes multiple cycles of replication, as the structural function (for replication) is no longer needed. I thnk its fascinating that this enzyme loses so much information so fast - such is the power of evolutionary adaptation! best, Regina ----------------------------- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 22:09:12 -0400 From: Rafal Smigrodzki To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 199, Issue 71 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:31 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ben - Great question! People have attempted to answer this over decades > and along the way discovered transposons and "jumping genes". For the > details you could look up the work of prof Barbara McClintock, also profs > Andrew Pohorille (of NASA Ames) and Stuart Kauffman. > > Basic idea is that sub-systems of highly complex, hierarchical systems can > split off and transfer from one system to another. Viruses are usually > considered non living because they are obligate parasites and co-opt other > organisims' metabolisms to propagate. > > So they did not evolve to be a simpler system. They evolved from complex systems as a sub-system, not as separate self-sufficient organisms. They are not even metabolically complete - ie, they can't live on their own, or replicate on their own, and instead depend utterly on hosts. ### Dunno. There are multiple cases of animals and plants undergoing dramatic simplification of their function during both phylogeny and ontogeny. There are parasites that started out with having a nervous system and then devolved to just chunks of flesh. There are sessile marine animals that start out as free-swimming, active larvae and then radically simplify their body, while usually increasing in size. Animals that lose senses after moving to caves. There is no general tendency for any given species to become more complex. Depending on the situation, a species can evolve for more complexity or devolve - and the actual course of evolution depends on the availability of ecological niches adjacent to the niche currently occupied by that species. For many species, the mutational catastrophe imposes hard limits on available configuration space - they can't just build more complexity because the speed of information loss due to random mutations exceeds their ability to accumulate new and useful (i.e. fitness-enhancing) information. On the other hand, the ecosystem as a whole tends to become more complex - the existence of one level of complexity (i.e. improved intracellular signaling, improved DNA repair, targeted DNA mutation) opens the space to explore next levels of development (respectively for the above examples, multicellularity, long chromosomes, adaptive immune systems), and with enough species available these new levels are explored, eventually opening even more opportunities for building complexity. Some species evolve, some devolve but the whole ecosystem (ecosphere) gets bigger and more complicated, at least until the next asteroid strike. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 12:18:18 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 06:18:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] A fly on the wall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What great stories! Especially hearing about the "4 quadrant log-antilog multiplier" invented while wearing identical clothes. It's funny because it just so happened that last month I realized I have built up a large drawer full of radically different mismatched socks over time. 90% of which I hate. I guess the best gift anyone can think of getting me are different socks. Every morning it seems to get more and more time consuming just to find a good matched pair. Last month I realized the best solution would be to find a good pair of socks, which I (and anyone who wanted to gift me a pair) would always be able to find identical pairs to purchase, forever, then buy a bunch and throw out all the mismatched garbage I have now. I could refuse to accept any gifted pair of socks that weren't Identical. So glad to hear I am not the only person pushing in this direction for solutions to some of life's difficult problems. On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:10 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 2:53 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> I explained that I had bought four identical shirts and three >> identical sets of pants to give the impression I had only one set of >> clothes. She thought it was very funny. >> >> > ### I have 60 pairs of identical black socks. > > Luckily, I never had to work in any place with a dress code. I'm wearing > scrubs now... and black socks. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 12:34:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 07:34:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] book why In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Stuart decided that he wanted it after all. bill w On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 2:40 AM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Are you referring to the 'book of why'? > > &Kunvar > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 1:48 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I am again offering this book to anyone who desires it, whether it is in >> your area or not. >> >> One of you first indicated a desire for it but has not replied to my >> request for an address to send it to, and so it is again available. >> >> First come, first serve. >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 12:53:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 07:53:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A fly on the wall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In 1968 I had my first teaching job at a small liberal arts college. About halfway through the year the dean called me in and told me that a student had complained about me. Oops. Not a good start to my first job. Problem: I did not wear a tie. The Dean said wear one. He smiled just a tiny bit. I did for several months and then never again. Can you imagine a student now complaining about it? Nobody complained that I filled the room with smoke. Wearing black nylon socks worn up nearly to the knee with shorts is a fashion statement in Florida retirement communities. bill w On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:11 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 2:53 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> I explained that I had bought four identical shirts and three >> identical sets of pants to give the impression I had only one set of >> clothes. She thought it was very funny. >> >> > ### I have 60 pairs of identical black socks. > > Luckily, I never had to work in any place with a dress code. I'm wearing > scrubs now... and black socks. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Apr 30 12:57:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 05:57:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] book why In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006701d61eee$dd56a0a0$9803e1e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] book why Stuart decided that he wanted it after all. bill w Hey Bill, I know Stuart, he is a good sport. Play a little gag: send him your cod book. That one is the REAL book of why. Every time I tried to read it, I asked Whyyyy would anyone write about this? spike On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 2:40 AM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat > wrote: Are you referring to the 'book of why'? &Kunvar On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 1:48 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: I am again offering this book to anyone who desires it, whether it is in your area or not. One of you first indicated a desire for it but has not replied to my request for an address to send it to, and so it is again available. First come, first serve. bill w _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 13:46:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 09:46:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:13 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> There are multiple cases of animals and plants undergoing dramatic > simplification of their function during both phylogeny and ontogeny. There > are parasites that started out with having a nervous system and then > devolved to just chunks of flesh.* > True. > *> There is no general tendency for any given species to become more > complex. * > Well there is Cope's rule, the general tendency of species to get larger over geological time, although I'm not sure larger size and more complexity is necessarily the same thing. And there are exceptions to Cope's rule, large mammals that colonize islands tend to undergo dwarfism, the fossils of Elephants the size of ponies have been found on the islands of the Mediterranean. But although the average may decline I do think the most complex species in one age is more complex than the most complex creature in a previous age, at least usually. *> On the other hand, the ecosystem as a whole tends to become more complex* I think a good example of that would be the Carboniferous Age that started 359 million years ago and is where most of the oil, gas and coal we use today came from. Evolution had just figured out how to make Lignin, an organic polymer that gives wood its strength, and so it was the age of huge trees. There was probably more tonnage of living material during the Carboniferous than any other time in Earth's history, and as a result of all that photosynthesis the oxygen level in the air was about 35% versus 21% today; and so you could have 9 foot millipedes, dragonflies the size of falcons, and 18 inch long cockroaches. But Lignin is very tough stuff and nothing had yet figured out how to break it down, so when a tree died it didn't rot and, apart from some massive forest fires, the carbon in the dead trees didn't return to the atmosphere as CO2 and instead got buried and just piled up. Eventually after 60 million years a few species of fungi did find an enzyme that could break down Lignin, and so the Carboniferous Age ended 80 million years before the first dinosaur evolved. But by then there was a huge amount of inaccessible carbon in the ground, inaccessible until Homo sapiens came around. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 14:54:00 2020 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 16:54:00 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > large mammals that colonize islands tend to undergo dwarfism One counterexample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt-toothed_giant_hutia On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:48 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:13 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *> There are multiple cases of animals and plants undergoing dramatic >> simplification of their function during both phylogeny and ontogeny. There >> are parasites that started out with having a nervous system and then >> devolved to just chunks of flesh.* >> > > True. > > >> *> There is no general tendency for any given species to become more >> complex. * >> > > Well there is Cope's rule, the general tendency of species to get larger > over geological time, although I'm not sure larger size and more complexity > is necessarily the same thing. And there are exceptions to Cope's rule, > large mammals that colonize islands tend to undergo dwarfism, the fossils > of Elephants the size of ponies have been found on the islands of the > Mediterranean. But although the average may decline I do think the most > complex species in one age is more complex than the most complex creature > in a previous age, at least usually. > > *> On the other hand, the ecosystem as a whole tends to become more >> complex* > > > I think a good example of that would be the Carboniferous Age that started > 359 million years ago and is where most of the oil, gas and coal we use > today came from. Evolution had just figured out how to make Lignin, an > organic polymer that gives wood its strength, and so it was the age of huge > trees. There was probably more tonnage of living material during the > Carboniferous than any other time in Earth's history, and as a result of > all that photosynthesis the oxygen level in the air was about 35% versus > 21% today; and so you could have 9 foot millipedes, dragonflies the size of > falcons, and 18 inch long cockroaches. > > But Lignin is very tough stuff and nothing had yet figured out how to > break it down, so when a tree died it didn't rot and, apart from some > massive forest fires, the carbon in the dead trees didn't return to the > atmosphere as CO2 and instead got buried and just piled up. Eventually > after 60 million years a few species of fungi did find an enzyme that could > break down Lignin, and so the Carboniferous Age ended 80 million years > before the first dinosaur evolved. But by then there was a huge amount of > inaccessible carbon in the ground, inaccessible until Homo sapiens came > around. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 15:21:52 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 10:21:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: As a note, without government intervention, us ?cowerers? are not allowed to stay home. Due to government action, I was allowed to stay home without losing my job. AND in the South, we were not legally allowed to wear face masks, because KKK, before government intervention. SR Ballard > On Apr 29, 2020, at 9:52 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> It divides societies between the paid and not paid. >> > > ### I am one of the paid ones. I have not missed a night off work, keep doing my 12 hour shifts seven nights a week, 31 days a month, hopefully 350 nights a year spent in the hospital. The lockdowns so far have not harmed, merely inconvenienced me. > > And yet I am quite passionately opposed to lockdowns, lock, stock and barrel. > > We the people must be allowed to make the tradeoffs regarding our lives. > > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up on most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance of dying, depending on your demographic. But the rest of us must be able to decide what kind of risk to accept for what kind of reward. Us going out, mingling and sharing our diverse bacteria, viruses and even protozoa does not stop the cowering ones from cowering, does not inflict any added risk of infection on them, since they cower at home, while we mingle outside. > > To each his own. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 15:31:15 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 10:31:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89F572D2-95A2-4AEC-A6B6-B2C0B9FD5B52@gmail.com> See foster: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foster%27s_rule SR Ballard > On Apr 30, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat wrote: > > > large mammals that colonize islands tend to undergo dwarfism > > One counterexample: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt-toothed_giant_hutia > > > >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:48 PM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:13 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > There are multiple cases of animals and plants undergoing dramatic simplification of their function during both phylogeny and ontogeny. There are parasites that started out with having a nervous system and then devolved to just chunks of flesh. >> >> True. >> >>> > There is no general tendency for any given species to become more complex. >> >> Well there is Cope's rule, the general tendency of species to get larger over geological time, although I'm not sure larger size and more complexity is necessarily the same thing. And there are exceptions to Cope's rule, large mammals that colonize islands tend to undergo dwarfism, the fossils of Elephants the size of ponies have been found on the islands of the Mediterranean. But although the average may decline I do think the most complex species in one age is more complex than the most complex creature in a previous age, at least usually. >> >>> > On the other hand, the ecosystem as a whole tends to become more complex >> >> I think a good example of that would be the Carboniferous Age that started 359 million years ago and is where most of the oil, gas and coal we use today came from. Evolution had just figured out how to make Lignin, an organic polymer that gives wood its strength, and so it was the age of huge trees. There was probably more tonnage of living material during the Carboniferous than any other time in Earth's history, and as a result of all that photosynthesis the oxygen level in the air was about 35% versus 21% today; and so you could have 9 foot millipedes, dragonflies the size of falcons, and 18 inch long cockroaches. >> >> But Lignin is very tough stuff and nothing had yet figured out how to break it down, so when a tree died it didn't rot and, apart from some massive forest fires, the carbon in the dead trees didn't return to the atmosphere as CO2 and instead got buried and just piled up. Eventually after 60 million years a few species of fungi did find an enzyme that could break down Lignin, and so the Carboniferous Age ended 80 million years before the first dinosaur evolved. But by then there was a huge amount of inaccessible carbon in the ground, inaccessible until Homo sapiens came around. >> >> John K Clark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > -- > https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 15:49:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 10:49:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Not just because of KKK - store cameras could not pick up pictures of robbers if people could legally wear masks. Muslims are another issue. bill w On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 10:24 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As a note, without government intervention, us ?cowerers? are not allowed > to stay home. Due to government action, I was allowed to stay home without > losing my job. > > AND in the South, we were not legally allowed to wear face masks, because > KKK, before government intervention. > > SR Ballard > > On Apr 29, 2020, at 9:52 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> It divides societies between the paid and not paid. >> > > ### I am one of the paid ones. I have not missed a night off work, keep > doing my 12 hour shifts seven nights a week, 31 days a month, hopefully 350 > nights a year spent in the hospital. The lockdowns so far have not harmed, > merely inconvenienced me. > > And yet I am quite passionately opposed to lockdowns, lock, stock and > barrel. > > We the people must be allowed to make the tradeoffs regarding our lives. > > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up > on most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 > chance of dying, depending on your demographic. But the rest of us must be > able to decide what kind of risk to accept for what kind of reward. Us > going out, mingling and sharing our diverse bacteria, viruses and even > protozoa does not stop the cowering ones from cowering, does not inflict > any added risk of infection on them, since they cower at home, while we > mingle outside. > > To each his own. > > Rafal > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 15:57:40 2020 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:57:40 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: <89F572D2-95A2-4AEC-A6B6-B2C0B9FD5B52@gmail.com> References: <89F572D2-95A2-4AEC-A6B6-B2C0B9FD5B52@gmail.com> Message-ID: The size of an animal or plant species is something like a random walk, up and down the scale. Except, that it's not random, but a complex function of the environment. This holds not only for the body size but for every property imaginable. Like the brain size, oxygen handling, and everything at all. Is biology ever more complex? I don't know. Is the planet Earth heavier or lighter every day? I don't know even that. Surprisingly difficult question, but much easier than that about the complexity of life. I am an agnostic here. On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 5:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > See foster: > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foster%27s_rule > > SR Ballard > > On Apr 30, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > large mammals that colonize islands tend to undergo dwarfism > > One counterexample: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt-toothed_giant_hutia > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:48 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:13 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >>> *> There are multiple cases of animals and plants undergoing dramatic >>> simplification of their function during both phylogeny and ontogeny. There >>> are parasites that started out with having a nervous system and then >>> devolved to just chunks of flesh.* >>> >> >> True. >> >> >>> *> There is no general tendency for any given species to become more >>> complex. * >>> >> >> Well there is Cope's rule, the general tendency of species to get larger >> over geological time, although I'm not sure larger size and more complexity >> is necessarily the same thing. And there are exceptions to Cope's rule, >> large mammals that colonize islands tend to undergo dwarfism, the fossils >> of Elephants the size of ponies have been found on the islands of the >> Mediterranean. But although the average may decline I do think the most >> complex species in one age is more complex than the most complex creature >> in a previous age, at least usually. >> >> *> On the other hand, the ecosystem as a whole tends to become more >>> complex* >> >> >> I think a good example of that would be the Carboniferous Age that >> started 359 million years ago and is where most of the oil, gas and coal we >> use today came from. Evolution had just figured out how to make Lignin, an >> organic polymer that gives wood its strength, and so it was the age of huge >> trees. There was probably more tonnage of living material during the >> Carboniferous than any other time in Earth's history, and as a result of >> all that photosynthesis the oxygen level in the air was about 35% versus >> 21% today; and so you could have 9 foot millipedes, dragonflies the size of >> falcons, and 18 inch long cockroaches. >> >> But Lignin is very tough stuff and nothing had yet figured out how to >> break it down, so when a tree died it didn't rot and, apart from some >> massive forest fires, the carbon in the dead trees didn't return to the >> atmosphere as CO2 and instead got buried and just piled up. Eventually >> after 60 million years a few species of fungi did find an enzyme that could >> break down Lignin, and so the Carboniferous Age ended 80 million years >> before the first dinosaur evolved. But by then there was a huge amount of >> inaccessible carbon in the ground, inaccessible until Homo sapiens came >> around. >> >> John K Clark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > -- > https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 17:55:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 12:55:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] AI as inventor? No. Message-ID: >From the magazine Nature: The US Patent and Trademark Office has ruled that artificial-intelligence (AI) systems cannot be credited as inventors . The case was raised in response to patent applications for a food container and a flashing light, both created by software called DABUS. The organization behind it was not arguing that an AI should own intellectual property, only that it should be listed as an inventor. But patent law clearly refers to humans, using pronouns such as ?he? or ?she?, the agency concluded. The UK and European patent offices reached similar conclusions last year. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 18:37:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 13:37:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] religious question Message-ID: I think that maybe I asking the totally wrong group: What is your understanding of worship? Where does it come from? What does it accomplish? Can there be a religion without worship? Is it just a form of great esteem, like we might have for Maxwell or Newton? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johntc at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 19:13:59 2020 From: johntc at gmail.com (John Tracy Cunningham) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 15:13:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] religious question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Believing, card-carrying Latter-day Saint here. Worship off the top of my head is an act dedicated to the honor and glory of someone or something. Someone is much more satisfying, as someone may respond in some way. Acts of commemoration of themselves are not worship. On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 2:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think that maybe I asking the totally wrong group: > > What is your understanding of worship? Where does it come from? What does > it accomplish? Can there be a religion without worship? Is it just a form > of great esteem, like we might have for Maxwell or Newton? > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 19:38:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 14:38:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] lemurs Message-ID: a talented student, you have this to look forward to? 32.6K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 19:38:57 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 12:38:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17A5C072-8C03-4D4C-9E31-EA67E53E67C0@gmail.com> Not sure if I missed it, but there?s Dollo?s Law: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollo%27s_law_of_irreversibility I first ran into in Brooks? and Wiley?s _Evolution as Entropy_, an old book, but still worth a glance. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Thu Apr 30 20:18:46 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 01:48:46 +0530 Subject: [ExI] religious question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm an atheist but I grew up in a religious family and I think that their form of worship is alright. My mom is more religious than my dad, if we think in the conventional way. My dad thinks that's there's 'something' at play making everything around us so complex yet so simple. That something may not be someone. He's more of a 'some universal power' sort of person. He says that the more we find out the we know less. There's an inherent beauty to everything, and my dad calls that 'nature'. He believes that nature is cleverer than we are, and if there's something disagreeing with the nature, it's wrong. My mom is a bit more religious, but she worships by doing some praying for things like the better health of the family or better education for us, etc. She addresses no one in particular, just closes her eyes and says stuff like 'May you have ____' . Of course, it doesn't accomplish anything, but it gives her hope. She says that even if the thing she prayed for doesn't come true, she'd have hope and a reason to believe. It's sort of an emotional support system. On Fri, May 1, 2020, 12:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think that maybe I asking the totally wrong group: > > What is your understanding of worship? Where does it come from? What does > it accomplish? Can there be a religion without worship? Is it just a form > of great esteem, like we might have for Maxwell or Newton? > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > &Kunvar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 21:57:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 16:57:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] religious question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, Kunvar, in your Mom's case, worship is like prayer and both are talking to oneself as a form of pep talk. If it gives your Mom hope then something is definitively being accomplished. As an aside, a maker of OTC pills acknowledged that there was little research on any of them, but he said that taking the pills gives people hope, and that's not an insignificant thing. bill w On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:21 PM Kunvar Thaman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm an atheist but I grew up in a religious family and I think that their > form of worship is alright. My mom is more religious than my dad, if we > think in the conventional way. > > My dad thinks that's there's 'something' at play making everything around > us so complex yet so simple. That something may not be someone. He's more > of a 'some universal power' sort of person. He says that the more we find > out the we know less. There's an inherent beauty to everything, and my dad > calls that 'nature'. He believes that nature is cleverer than we are, and > if there's something disagreeing with the nature, it's wrong. > > My mom is a bit more religious, but she worships by doing some praying for > things like the better health of the family or better education for us, > etc. She addresses no one in particular, just closes her eyes and says > stuff like 'May you have ____' . > > Of course, it doesn't accomplish anything, but it gives her hope. She says > that even if the thing she prayed for doesn't come true, she'd have hope > and a reason to believe. It's sort of an emotional support system. > On Fri, May 1, 2020, 12:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think that maybe I asking the totally wrong group: >> >> What is your understanding of worship? Where does it come from? What >> does it accomplish? Can there be a religion without worship? Is it just a >> form of great esteem, like we might have for Maxwell or Newton? >> >> bill w >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > &Kunvar > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 22:12:59 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:12:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] religious question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77ABF314-7356-43A1-96DC-B7D556B8630F@gmail.com> Worship can be a lot of things. It can be communication, showing affection to ?god?, saying ?thank you?, sharing awe, dispelling fear. I think it comes from a natural impulse, a natural overflow of feelings. I don?t think Buddhism has to have Worship, though some kinds do. I think that it?s one step beyond a ?great esteem?. It goes jest a little further until it?s not based on objective facts anymore, emotional impulse takes over. SR Ballard > On Apr 30, 2020, at 1:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I think that maybe I asking the totally wrong group: > > What is your understanding of worship? Where does it come from? What does it accomplish? Can there be a religion without worship? Is it just a form of great esteem, like we might have for Maxwell or Newton? > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 22:15:03 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:15:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7F27BAB0-7171-41F9-BDB4-E7087FEAAB56@gmail.com> Most Muslims do not wear niqab. They usually only wear hijab in the US. Muslim men wear neither. SR Ballard > On Apr 30, 2020, at 10:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Not just because of KKK - store cameras could not pick up pictures of robbers if people could legally wear masks. Muslims are another issue. bill w > >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 10:24 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> As a note, without government intervention, us ?cowerers? are not allowed to stay home. Due to government action, I was allowed to stay home without losing my job. >> >> AND in the South, we were not legally allowed to wear face masks, because KKK, before government intervention. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Apr 29, 2020, at 9:52 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> It divides societies between the paid and not paid. >>>> >>> >>> ### I am one of the paid ones. I have not missed a night off work, keep doing my 12 hour shifts seven nights a week, 31 days a month, hopefully 350 nights a year spent in the hospital. The lockdowns so far have not harmed, merely inconvenienced me. >>> >>> And yet I am quite passionately opposed to lockdowns, lock, stock and barrel. >>> >>> We the people must be allowed to make the tradeoffs regarding our lives. >>> >>> If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up on most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance of dying, depending on your demographic. But the rest of us must be able to decide what kind of risk to accept for what kind of reward. Us going out, mingling and sharing our diverse bacteria, viruses and even protozoa does not stop the cowering ones from cowering, does not inflict any added risk of infection on them, since they cower at home, while we mingle outside. >>> >>> To each his own. >>> >>> Rafal >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Apr 30 22:28:27 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 23:28:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] religious question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52980575-1085-b074-d083-69530d7fffce@zaiboc.net> On 30/04/2020 20:39, bill w wrote: > I think that maybe I asking the totally wrong group: Maybe you are. > > What is your understanding of worship?? Where does it come from? What > does it accomplish?? Can there be a religion without worship?? Is it > just a form of great esteem, like we might have for Maxwell or Newton? > I understand it as abasing yourself before a being perceived as more powerful than yourself. It probably comes from human psychology, both from the perspective of people willing/wanting to be led, and from the perspective of people wanting to gain power, and realising that if they pose as the representative of an imaginary powerful being and encourage worship of said being, they can place themselves in a position of power as priests, etc. That's quite an accomplishment, I think. There may be religions without worship, but I'm sure they'd be a minority, as worship is a powerful tool for religion, so why would one not take advantage of it? Esteem? No, it seems to me to be a form of fear or insecurity. Those are much more powerful for controlling people. Making people fear their gods is more common, and more effective, than asking them to praise them. You can tell people to praise the gods or else, but that's not esteeming them. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 22:32:09 2020 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 00:32:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: <17A5C072-8C03-4D4C-9E31-EA67E53E67C0@gmail.com> References: <17A5C072-8C03-4D4C-9E31-EA67E53E67C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: This can't be really a law. It's only improbable, but not impossible to return to the previous version of the genome. On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Not sure if I missed it, but there?s Dollo?s Law: > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollo%27s_law_of_irreversibility > > I first ran into in Brooks? and Wiley?s _Evolution as Entropy_, an old > book, but still worth a glance. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 23:32:57 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 18:32:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: References: <17A5C072-8C03-4D4C-9E31-EA67E53E67C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <919B4744-24C0-43B8-B85D-AA7213F82CB9@gmail.com> It is a ?law? in the sense of Murphy?s law (anything that can go wrong, will go wrong), Godwin?s law (internet discussions, if they go one long enough, will always mention Hitler), Poe?s law (you can never tell if someone online is serious or joking), etc. Also, per the article: >?The statement is often misinterpreted as claiming that evolution is not reversible, or that lost structures and organs cannot reappear in the same form by any process of devolution.? Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 30, 2020, at 5:32 PM, Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat wrote: > > This can't be really a law. It's only improbable, but not impossible to return to the previous version of the genome. > >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 9:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> Not sure if I missed it, but there?s Dollo?s Law: >> >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollo%27s_law_of_irreversibility >> >> I first ran into in Brooks? and Wiley?s _Evolution as Entropy_, an old book, but still worth a glance. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books at: >> http://author.to/DanUst >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > -- > https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: