From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 1 11:28:59 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 11:28:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/02/2020 22:01, Giulio Prisco wrote: > my point is that the ?arguments? of atheists against believers can be > redirected at the atheists themselves, who often behave exactly like > fundamentalist believers. Can you give us some examples of these arguments? From your use of quotes, I take it you don't think they are valid arguments in the first place, but I'd like to hear what they are. I also take it that when you talk about the behaviour of fundamentalist believers, you are excluding the violence and coerciveness which most people think is the problem with fundamentalism. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 1 11:35:12 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 11:35:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Four pieces of evidence from before the Big Bang In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/02/2020 22:01, BillK wrote: > On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 at 15:07, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> Wait a minute, isn't this just re-defining the big bang as something that happened after inflation? >> > The meaning of the Big Bang Theory has developed and changed over the years. > Quote: > ?Despite its name, the big bang theory is not really a theory of a > bang at all. It is really only a theory of the aftermath of a bang.? > -Alan Guth > > Originally the big bang theory was that because we are in an > expanding, cooling universe we could extrapolate backwards to a point > of infinite density, a singularity, that the universe exploded from. > But evidence has shown that idea to be wrong. > > The inflation had to come first, creating a hot universe of matter and > radiation (quark-gluon plasma). This in turn created what we see today. > Detailed description here: > So, Yes, it is. Is there a (new) name then, for the event that started it all, before inflation? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 13:05:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:05:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Four pieces of evidence from before the Big Bang In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 6:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> is there a (new) name then, for the event that started it all, before > inflation?* If the idea is right then inflation IS the Big Bang. According to the theory all you need to do to get things going and create a new universe is to concentrate 10 grams of matter (about the mass of a pencil) into a volume with a diameter of 10^-26 meters; by comparison a proton has a diameter of 10^-15 meters and the Planck Length is 1.6*10^-35 meters. As far as I know there is no specific name for this. Perhaps a hyper advanced civilization could manage such compression but they might not think it would be worth the effort because they'd have no way of observing the new universe they created or even empirically confirm that the experiment had been successfully performed. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 13:25:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 08:25:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The biggest bang since the big one Message-ID: In the February 27 2020 Astrophysical Journal evidence is presented that in the distant past in a super giant galaxy 400 million light years away there was an explosion that released 100 billion times as much energy as the sun will during its entire lifetime. Discovery of a Giant Radio Fossil in the Ophiuchus Galaxy Cluster John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 21:46:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:46:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead Message-ID: Freeman Dyson has died at the age of 96. He didn't just dream up the Dyson Sphere he was a great physicist and wrote a number of wonderful books. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 07:54:45 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 08:54:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ben, I'm aware of the "violence and coerciveness" that has often been practiced by organized believers. I'm also aware of the equivalent violence and coerciveness that has often been practiced by organized atheists. Here in Eastern Europe, everyone has horror stories to tell about the violent and coercive persecution of believers that happened until a couple of decades ago. And this is my best example of how the "arguments" of atheists against believers fail: Their own camp is guilty of exactly the same violent and coercive behavior of which they accuse the other camp. As you say, philosophical convictions shouldn't be blamed for the violent and coercive behavior of assholes in both camps (just like football shouldn't be blamed for violent hooliganism). But I think that, in both camps, the reasonable majority should disown and denounce unreasonable minorities. On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 12:30 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 29/02/2020 22:01, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > my point is that the ?arguments? of atheists against believers can be > > redirected at the atheists themselves, who often behave exactly like > > fundamentalist believers. > > Can you give us some examples of these arguments? > > From your use of quotes, I take it you don't think they are valid > arguments in the first place, but I'd like to hear what they are. > > I also take it that when you talk about the behaviour of fundamentalist > believers, you are excluding the violence and coerciveness which most > people think is the problem with fundamentalism. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 14:47:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 08:47:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are lots of militant religious organizations and many violent deeds. I have yet to see any attributed to militant atheists. Examples please? bill w On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 1:57 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Ben, I'm aware of the "violence and coerciveness" that has often > been practiced by organized believers. I'm also aware of the > equivalent violence and coerciveness that has often been practiced by > organized atheists. Here in Eastern Europe, everyone has horror > stories to tell about the violent and coercive persecution of > believers that happened until a couple of decades ago. > > And this is my best example of how the "arguments" of atheists against > believers fail: Their own camp is guilty of exactly the same violent > and coercive behavior of which they accuse the other camp. > > As you say, philosophical convictions shouldn't be blamed for the > violent and coercive behavior of assholes in both camps (just like > football shouldn't be blamed for violent hooliganism). But I think > that, in both camps, the reasonable majority should disown and > denounce unreasonable minorities. > > On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 12:30 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > On 29/02/2020 22:01, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > > my point is that the ?arguments? of atheists against believers can be > > > redirected at the atheists themselves, who often behave exactly like > > > fundamentalist believers. > > > > Can you give us some examples of these arguments? > > > > From your use of quotes, I take it you don't think they are valid > > arguments in the first place, but I'd like to hear what they are. > > > > I also take it that when you talk about the behaviour of fundamentalist > > believers, you are excluding the violence and coerciveness which most > > people think is the problem with fundamentalism. > > > > -- > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 14:54:03 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:54:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism On 2020. Mar 2., Mon at 15:49, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There are lots of militant religious organizations and many violent > deeds. I have yet to see any attributed to militant atheists. Examples > please? bill w > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 1:57 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Hi Ben, I'm aware of the "violence and coerciveness" that has often >> been practiced by organized believers. I'm also aware of the >> equivalent violence and coerciveness that has often been practiced by >> organized atheists. Here in Eastern Europe, everyone has horror >> stories to tell about the violent and coercive persecution of >> believers that happened until a couple of decades ago. >> >> And this is my best example of how the "arguments" of atheists against >> believers fail: Their own camp is guilty of exactly the same violent >> and coercive behavior of which they accuse the other camp. >> >> As you say, philosophical convictions shouldn't be blamed for the >> violent and coercive behavior of assholes in both camps (just like >> football shouldn't be blamed for violent hooliganism). But I think >> that, in both camps, the reasonable majority should disown and >> denounce unreasonable minorities. >> >> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 12:30 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > On 29/02/2020 22:01, Giulio Prisco wrote: >> > > my point is that the ?arguments? of atheists against believers can be >> > > redirected at the atheists themselves, who often behave exactly like >> > > fundamentalist believers. >> > >> > Can you give us some examples of these arguments? >> > >> > From your use of quotes, I take it you don't think they are valid >> > arguments in the first place, but I'd like to hear what they are. >> > >> > I also take it that when you talk about the behaviour of fundamentalist >> > believers, you are excluding the violence and coerciveness which most >> > people think is the problem with fundamentalism. >> > >> > -- >> > Ben Zaiboc >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 15:50:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:50:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 2:57 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *Here in Eastern Europe, everyone has horror stories to tell about the > violent and coercive persecution ofbelievers * Yes, like the "coercive persecution" that Nazis who believed in the Christian religion inflicted on people who believed in the Jewish religion. Stories just don't get much more horrible than what happened in Poland, but Nazis certainly didn't invent these sort of horror stories, one religious franchise persecuting a different religious franchise is a tradition that goes back many thousands of years and is the norm not the exception. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 17:19:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 11:19:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The problem with state atheism as an example of militant actions is that atheism is not the cause of the actions. It's mainly territory and such, not trying to convert believers into nonbelievers. Come to think of it, I have never heard of that in my life. bill w On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 8:58 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism > > > On 2020. Mar 2., Mon at 15:49, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> There are lots of militant religious organizations and many violent >> deeds. I have yet to see any attributed to militant atheists. Examples >> please? bill w >> >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 1:57 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Ben, I'm aware of the "violence and coerciveness" that has often >>> been practiced by organized believers. I'm also aware of the >>> equivalent violence and coerciveness that has often been practiced by >>> organized atheists. Here in Eastern Europe, everyone has horror >>> stories to tell about the violent and coercive persecution of >>> believers that happened until a couple of decades ago. >>> >>> And this is my best example of how the "arguments" of atheists against >>> believers fail: Their own camp is guilty of exactly the same violent >>> and coercive behavior of which they accuse the other camp. >>> >>> As you say, philosophical convictions shouldn't be blamed for the >>> violent and coercive behavior of assholes in both camps (just like >>> football shouldn't be blamed for violent hooliganism). But I think >>> that, in both camps, the reasonable majority should disown and >>> denounce unreasonable minorities. >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 12:30 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > On 29/02/2020 22:01, Giulio Prisco wrote: >>> > > my point is that the ?arguments? of atheists against believers can be >>> > > redirected at the atheists themselves, who often behave exactly like >>> > > fundamentalist believers. >>> > >>> > Can you give us some examples of these arguments? >>> > >>> > From your use of quotes, I take it you don't think they are valid >>> > arguments in the first place, but I'd like to hear what they are. >>> > >>> > I also take it that when you talk about the behaviour of fundamentalist >>> > believers, you are excluding the violence and coerciveness which most >>> > people think is the problem with fundamentalism. >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Ben Zaiboc >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > extropy-chat mailing list >>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 21:26:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:26:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] transhumanism Message-ID: Hey - check out the guy in the yellow pants: https://www.designboom.com/art/cyborgs-robots-and-biohackers-the-first-ever-survey-of-transhumanism-03-01-2020/ bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 22:08:15 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 17:08:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] transhumanism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Between that outfit and the antenna, I would imagine he's swimming in trim! Pretty cool, but I think I'll stick with being able to not distinguish certain reds from greens for now. On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 4:28 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hey - check out the guy in the yellow pants: > > > https://www.designboom.com/art/cyborgs-robots-and-biohackers-the-first-ever-survey-of-transhumanism-03-01-2020/ > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 22:13:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:13:22 -0600 Subject: [ExI] transhumanism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: red plus green yields yellow, doesn't it? do you see any yellow when you view an object you know to be red? bill w On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 4:10 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Between that outfit and the antenna, I would imagine he's swimming in > trim! > > Pretty cool, but I think I'll stick with being able to not distinguish > certain reds from greens for now. > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 4:28 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Hey - check out the guy in the yellow pants: >> >> >> https://www.designboom.com/art/cyborgs-robots-and-biohackers-the-first-ever-survey-of-transhumanism-03-01-2020/ >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 22:45:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:45:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The world would be so much better if everyone knows everything In-Reply-To: References: <8c25bf9f-c282-38f1-85e7-93e2aae0a701@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: adrian wrote: And if the Saudi and Iranian citizens knew who the secret police were *and* how little threat different religions and homosexuality actually posed. (should have been sent weeks ago - sorry) Adrian, I don't think that the Iranians in government, or Islamists anywhere, care about the reality of threats. They are applying their religion as they were taught and while we regard some of those things as irrational, they don't care. It's about religion. It's about tradition. It's about honor and all that. To repeat a post of some while ago: a poll of the Iranian citizens showed that 2/3 of them thought a government should be secular. bill w On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 6:18 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 12:21 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 08/02/2020 19:29, Brent Allsop wrote: >> >> The world would be so much better if everyone knows everything. >> >> >> Yep, the world would be so much better if the Saudi government knew >> exactly who had exactly what opinions on religion, if the Iranian people >> knew for sure who was gay, >> > > And if the Saudi and Iranian citizens knew who the secret police were > *and* how little threat different religions and homosexuality actually > posed. > > "Everything" does not merely include the bad parts. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 22:49:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:49:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] cognitive errors - again Message-ID: Esp. to John, but to everybody: I keep reading the evolution just cobbles together the best thing it can with the materials at hand and the thing may not be the perfect thing. So - how do we explain irrationality and the very numerous errors in thinking, none of which seem to be supportive of survival? Aside from protecting the ego in certain instances, it would seem that distortion of reality works against survival. Eh? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 23:25:39 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:25:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cognitive errors - again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi bill w, My working hypothesis is that evolution has bread us to co-operate in groups, for the survival of the fittest group. The largest group, best able to cooperate, destroy and out compete, or consume all other groups is the most fit. And since hierarchies are the simplest way to organize and cooperate, that?s what we have been bread for. So, rather than ?rationality? it?s all about supporting the guy at the top better than all other groups. It?s all about us/vs them, and there is no morality, other than what the guy at the top says. We?ve been bread, for billions of years, to fear and to kill anything that is not supporting that hierarchy, and to listen only to the guy at the top. Is it any wonder, then, if when people ask Trump: ?How will we know when America is Great Again?? His answer is: ?I will tell you when it is great.? Sure, that?s completely irrational, but he is still winning and out competing anything else. We just need to find a way so that leaderless organization can know, concisely and quantitatively, what everyone at the bottom wants, easily and efficiently. Until we can know that, there will always be a leaderless vacuum that must be filled by something, telling us all what to do. Basically, that is what canonizer is trying to do with its consensus building system. Only when we know what all the people at the bottom want, concisely and quantitatively, at scale, will we be able to cooperate, enough to out compete hierarchies. Once we can all do that, when Trump or Kim Jon-un want to go off and fight, we can just say: ?Sure, go knock yourself out.? As for the rest of us, we now know, rationally, concisely and quantitatively what we all want to do, so we?re going to do that, instead. On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 3:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Esp. to John, but to everybody: > > I keep reading the evolution just cobbles together the best thing it can > with the materials at hand and the thing may not be the perfect thing. > > So - how do we explain irrationality and the very numerous errors in > thinking, none of which seem to be supportive of survival? Aside from > protecting the ego in certain instances, it would seem that distortion of > reality works against survival. Eh? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 23:30:53 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:30:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cognitive errors - again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25E609A9-6705-419C-93ED-4F320B0815C3@gmail.com> Many cognitive errors such as cognitive biases seem like heuristics that work well in many circumstances (often in the past) or seem like kludges. I doubt many of these are set in stone in the genome. It?s more like there?s a default setting that training or learning can overcome. For instance, by default, people seem bad at statistical reasoning, but they expend effort and learn to overcome this default setting. (An example? The availability bias. That seems to work well in some circumstances ? one bad recent encounter with, say, a barking dog might make one wary of dogs.) Some of these defaults seem to have strong survival value ? like perceptual biases. Mistaking a bush for a bear is better than the opposite mistake and in low information conditions or rapid decision-making a bias might be better than no bias. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 2, 2020, at 2:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Esp. to John, but to everybody: > > I keep reading the evolution just cobbles together the best thing it can with the materials at hand and the thing may not be the perfect thing. > > So - how do we explain irrationality and the very numerous errors in thinking, none of which seem to be supportive of survival? Aside from protecting the ego in certain instances, it would seem that distortion of reality works against survival. Eh? > > bill w > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 23:55:43 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 18:55:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] transhumanism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can see many shades of red, it's just certain ones look the same as green ones to me and vice versa. On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 5:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > red plus green yields yellow, doesn't it? do you see any yellow when you > view an object you know to be red? bill w > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 4:10 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Between that outfit and the antenna, I would imagine he's swimming in >> trim! >> >> Pretty cool, but I think I'll stick with being able to not distinguish >> certain reds from greens for now. >> >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 4:28 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Hey - check out the guy in the yellow pants: >>> >>> >>> https://www.designboom.com/art/cyborgs-robots-and-biohackers-the-first-ever-survey-of-transhumanism-03-01-2020/ >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 00:20:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 18:20:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] transhumanism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When you say 'shade'do you mean 'saturation'? Pink is a very unsaturated red by way of explanation. bill w On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 5:58 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I can see many shades of red, it's just certain ones look the same as > green ones to me and vice versa. > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 5:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> red plus green yields yellow, doesn't it? do you see any yellow when you >> view an object you know to be red? bill w >> >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 4:10 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Between that outfit and the antenna, I would imagine he's swimming in >>> trim! >>> >>> Pretty cool, but I think I'll stick with being able to not distinguish >>> certain reds from greens for now. >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 4:28 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey - check out the guy in the yellow pants: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.designboom.com/art/cyborgs-robots-and-biohackers-the-first-ever-survey-of-transhumanism-03-01-2020/ >>>> >>>> bill w >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 03:52:05 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 20:52:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found In-Reply-To: <20200225131712.Horde.d6h5SLVFlIYbMLyp3zaD4d_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200225131712.Horde.d6h5SLVFlIYbMLyp3zaD4d_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Hi Stuart, Thanks for the feedback on my terminology. That really helps. But, it would help if you could provide more evidence that you understand why I'm using the terminology I am. Much of what you are saying is evidence to me you don't yet understand the model I'm trying to describe and what "qualia blindness" means. On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 9:28 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Brent Allsop: > > > The only > > thing everyone disagrees about is the nature of qualia. Communicating > the > > high level RQT ideas about what 'qualia blindness' is, and how there is > not > > a "hard mind body problem", it's just a color problem is already very > > difficult to communicate. > > "Qualia blindness" sounds too pejorative to be useful as a term of > art. You should stop using it especially since you tend to apply it to > people who disagree with you and you have so much trouble explaining > what it means. Perhaps "qualia denial" or "qualia denier" would be a > better and more accurate term, since even Daniel Dennett experiences > qualia, even though he doesn't believe them to be important. > Saying this kind of stuff is strong evidence that you still don't understand the model I'm trying to describe. Notice that even Dennett's "Predictive Bayesian Coding theory " is in a supporting sub camp to RQT . Supporting sub camps agree with everything stated in all their parent camps. Sibling camps are the ones that disagree, and all the sibling sub camps to RQT are the ones predicting different things qualia could be. I don't know of any "qualia dinier"s (evidence for this is provided by the fact that RQT has near unanimous expert consensus) as that just would be irrational. Everyone knows, absolutely, more than they know anything, that they have qualia, and what their qualia are like. Both John and Dennett agree that we have qualia. John just thinks that we will never be able to objectively observe them, and Dennett says we should "quine" (means ignore) them. They aren't "deniers" as most people mistakenly think, and is falsely portrayed in Wikipedia . "Qualia Blindness" is similar to the "pejorative" term "Naive Realism". That fact that it is "pejorative" doesn't really matter compared to the facts it is describing. In fact, some people think the fact that "Naive Realism" is factually "Naive" is a good thing . I would bet that John would agree that his view is 'qualia blind' and that he is perfectly OK with using one word for all things 'red' as he has indicated multiple times. And of course, saying you should ignore qualia, as Dennett does, is the very definition of being qualia blind. Dennett openly admits that. Qualia blindness is as qualia blindness does. If you only have one word, for all things red, that is, by definition, qualia blindness. It is simply a fact that having one word for all things 'red' tells you nothing of the actual physical qualities of any of the many things it is a label for. Having a model (and the language of such) of the physical world that ignores, or does not include qualia, is, by definition, qualia blind. If you don't like the term "qualia blind" then every time I use it please substitute it with: "Have amy model of physical reality that does not include objectively observable qualia." Or anyone that claims we should "quine qualia" and so on. > > Incidentally, I think you might have been too reductionist in your > >> search for the material correlates of color. Material redness is not a > >> molecule, material redness is the L-cone cell in your retina that > >> fires more strongly in response to red light than green light. M-cone > >> cells conversely fire more strongly in response to green light than > >> red. > > > > > > Um, yea. What you say below (as illustrated in this "Perception Inverted > > >" > > section of the video) proves what you say above is mistaken, right? > > Not at all. Inverted perception in no way proves that qualia are not > "phantasms of the mind" to use Newton's terminology. In fact, the > rewiring I described between the retina and the visual cortex is > specifically in reference to the signalling pathway model. > More evidence you are not understanding what I'm trying to say. If you put a red green signal inverter in the optic nerve , The light and the "L-cone" will be firing 'red', but the knowledge will not have a redness quality, it will have a greeness quality. This fact necessarily proves that neither the L-cone, nore the 'red' light, (as you are claiming) have anything to do with the physical quality of knowledge (since it isn't redness, it is greeness when the inverter is in place). > This camp is the simplest and most importantly, easy to falsify. If > > someone experiences redness, with no glutamate, redness = glutamate > > prediction falsified. The ease of falsifiability is what is important. > > For example, I see no possible way to falsify most of the other theories, > > especially the leading consensus camp which Stathis supports: > "Functionalism > > ". If > they > > could provide any easily falsifiable example of what redness could be, > I'd > > be happy to use that in place of glutamate, but they never provide > anything > > even close to that. > > All these camps seem like little more than philosophical > hair-splitting to me. What distinguishes functionalism from RQT except > for the assumed material basis for qualia? Evidence that you don't understand RQT, nor the structure of camps in canonizer. RQT makes no predictions about what qualia are. It only says that we have qualia, and that conscious knowledge is qualitative. It is all the many supporting sibling sub camps making different predictions about what qualia are. It is only the minority sub camp "Molecular Materialism " (NOT RQT) that is predicting that our description of how redness behaves in a synapse could be the objective description of what we subjectively know to be redness. "The rays [of light], to speak properly, are not coloured. In them > there is nothing else than a certain power to stir up a sensation of > this or that colour . . . to determine by what modes or actions light > produceth in our minds the phantasm of colour is not so easie." > > In fact, Chalmers explicitly reframed Newton's "color problem" as the > hard problem so all you have done is undo Chalmers' contribution to > the field. > Yes, both Chalmers, Stathis, and the popular majority under RQT are functionalists. We all agree on RQT, Functionalists are just predicting that qualia are independent to any physical substrate. And Stathis agrees with "Chalmers" and all other functionalists that there is a "hard mind body problem". The primary reason so many people are "functionalists" is because of the Neural Substitution Argument . Reclassifying the color problem as a* hard problem* is what has made Chalmers so famous. I'm in a different camp . Functionalist are the only ones with a "hard problem" which they have no idea how to address, let alone having any way of verifying what they think must be. While my prediction is that they will first falsify "glutamate" as being the same as "redness" and then experimentalists will substitute glutamate with something else physical. Your "signalling pathway model" is a great model. It's about the only prediction of what qualia are that nobody has created a camp for yet. Experimental results could certainly verify it is a "readiness pathway" that we experience as redness right? Would you be willing to help us create a "signalling pathway model" camp, so experimentalists have another way to test for this qualia possibility? But if experimentalists found a particular "pathway" that always resulted in subjective redness, then this same "pathway" would always produce the same redness no matter what brain it was in, right? In other words, we would replace "glutamate" with whatever was the "redness pathway". Then we would have a qualitative definition of what the abstract description of what "pathway redness" was describing, right? And we would have an objective way to observe redness, whenever we saw "pathway redness." But if this was the case, a "signalling pathway model" couldn't be a functionalist model, because functionalism predicts qualia must be independent of anything physical, including any physical "pathway" right, Stathis? If an experimentalists discovers which of all our abstract descriptions of physical stuff in the brain is a description of subjective redness, that will falsify functionalism. In other words no matter what a functionalists attempts, they will never be able to produce redness. The only way to produce redness will be to produce whatever physics it is that can be directly experienced as redness. If someone discovers what it is that has a redness quality, this will falsify all but THE ONE competing sub camp to RQT which can't be falsified. If experimentalists prove what redness is, this will confirm how the substitution argument is a fallacy and that Chalmers, Stathes, and all the other functionalists just lead us down a mistaken rat hole, taking us away from a solution to what is not a 'hard problem' but is only an easy color problem. They will be judged by our children to have set the field of consciousness way back, and they will have stood in the way of what should have been resolved, many years ago, as a simple color problem. They will clearly understand how worrying about the substitution argument just took us away from understand consciousness. So, now, it's up to the experimentalists to prove which of the many sub camps of RQT, making competing predictions about the nature of qualia, is the one that can't be falsified. Reframing the "the hard mind-body problem" as the "color problem" does > not help in the slightest because the "color problem" has remained > unsolved for over 300 years and was first voiced by Isaac Newton in > the 17th century: > Exactly, and the only reason is, is because everyone has been, to date, qualia blind. Non of the sub camps of RQT can be falsified as long as all experimentalists are qualia blind. To me, most of the theories and all the religious stuff, are what I think of as 'crap in the gap'. (similar to the idea of the God of the Gaps in evolutionary theory) As long as we can't falsify things, people can believe any crap they want to believe. Qualia blind people "correct" for any physical differences observed in the brain, labeling it all with the single word 'red'. Again, doing this makes one blind to any different physical qualities they may be detecting. As long as experimentalists continue to do this, they can't falsify any of the sub camps to RQT. The prediction is that once experimentalists stop doing this, once they start using more than one word for all things red, and once they stop ignoring differences, and start tracking physical differences in our conscious physical knowledge, we will then have the tools required to discover what it is that does have a redness quality. This will give us the required dictionary to connect our abstract descriptions, like glutamate or 'redness channel" or whatever it turns out to be, to subjective redness. Discovering what it is that has a redness quality will finally falsify all but the one sub camp to RQT making the correct predictions about the nature of qualia. This will close the last remaining gap in our understanding of consciousness, and finally eliminate all the crap in this remaining wide open gap in our scientific understanding caused by "Naive Realism " in general and more specifically, qualia blindness . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 04:49:04 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 15:49:04 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found In-Reply-To: References: <20200225131712.Horde.d6h5SLVFlIYbMLyp3zaD4d_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 14:54, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Hi Stuart, > Thanks for the feedback on my terminology. That really helps. > But, it would help if you could provide more evidence that you understand > why I'm using the terminology I am. > Much of what you are saying is evidence to me you don't yet understand the > model I'm trying to describe and what "qualia blindness" means. > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 9:28 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Quoting Brent Allsop: >> >> > The only >> > thing everyone disagrees about is the nature of qualia. Communicating >> the >> > high level RQT ideas about what 'qualia blindness' is, and how there is >> not >> > a "hard mind body problem", it's just a color problem is already very >> > difficult to communicate. >> >> "Qualia blindness" sounds too pejorative to be useful as a term of >> art. You should stop using it especially since you tend to apply it to >> people who disagree with you and you have so much trouble explaining >> what it means. Perhaps "qualia denial" or "qualia denier" would be a >> better and more accurate term, since even Daniel Dennett experiences >> qualia, even though he doesn't believe them to be important. >> > > Saying this kind of stuff is strong evidence that you still don't > understand the model I'm trying to describe. > > Notice that even Dennett's "Predictive Bayesian Coding theory > " is in a > supporting sub camp to RQT > . Supporting > sub camps agree with everything stated in all their parent camps. Sibling > camps are the ones that disagree, and all the sibling sub camps to RQT are > the ones predicting different things qualia could be. I don't know of any > "qualia dinier"s (evidence for this is provided by the fact that RQT has > near unanimous expert consensus) as that just would be irrational. > Everyone knows, absolutely, more than they know anything, that they have > qualia, and what their qualia are like. Both John and Dennett agree that > we have qualia. John just thinks that we will never be able to objectively > observe them, and Dennett says we should "quine" (means ignore) them. They > aren't "deniers" as most people mistakenly think, and is falsely > portrayed in Wikipedia . > > "Qualia Blindness" is similar to the "pejorative" term "Naive Realism". > That fact that it is "pejorative" doesn't really matter compared to the > facts it is describing. In fact, some people think the fact that "Naive > Realism" is factually "Naive" is a good thing > . I would bet that > John would agree that his view is 'qualia blind' and that he is perfectly > OK with using one word for all things 'red' as he has indicated multiple > times. And of course, saying you should ignore qualia, as Dennett does, is > the very definition of being qualia blind. Dennett openly admits that. > Qualia blindness is as qualia blindness does. If you only have one word, > for all things red, that is, by definition, qualia blindness. It is simply > a fact that having one word for all things 'red' tells you nothing of the > actual physical qualities of any of the many things it is a label for. > Having a model (and the language of such) of the physical world that > ignores, or does not include qualia, is, by definition, qualia blind. If > you don't like the term "qualia blind" then every time I use it please > substitute it with: "Have amy model of physical reality that does not > include objectively observable qualia." Or anyone that claims we should > "quine qualia" and so on. > > > >> > Incidentally, I think you might have been too reductionist in your >> >> search for the material correlates of color. Material redness is not a >> >> molecule, material redness is the L-cone cell in your retina that >> >> fires more strongly in response to red light than green light. M-cone >> >> cells conversely fire more strongly in response to green light than >> >> red. >> > >> > >> > Um, yea. What you say below (as illustrated in this "Perception >> Inverted >> > < >> https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=Perception_Inverted>" >> > section of the video) proves what you say above is mistaken, right? >> >> Not at all. Inverted perception in no way proves that qualia are not >> "phantasms of the mind" to use Newton's terminology. In fact, the >> rewiring I described between the retina and the visual cortex is >> specifically in reference to the signalling pathway model. >> > > More evidence you are not understanding what I'm trying to say. If you put > a red green signal inverter in the optic nerve > , > The light and the "L-cone" will be firing 'red', but the knowledge will not > have a redness quality, it will have a greeness quality. This fact > necessarily proves that neither the L-cone, nore the 'red' light, (as you > are claiming) have anything to do with the physical quality of knowledge > (since it isn't redness, it is greeness when the inverter is in place). > > > This camp is the simplest and most importantly, easy to falsify. If >> > someone experiences redness, with no glutamate, redness = glutamate >> > prediction falsified. The ease of falsifiability is what is important. >> > For example, I see no possible way to falsify most of the other >> theories, >> > especially the leading consensus camp which Stathis supports: >> "Functionalism >> > ". If >> they >> > could provide any easily falsifiable example of what redness could be, >> I'd >> > be happy to use that in place of glutamate, but they never provide >> anything >> > even close to that. >> >> All these camps seem like little more than philosophical >> hair-splitting to me. What distinguishes functionalism from RQT except >> for the assumed material basis for qualia? > > > Evidence that you don't understand RQT, nor the structure of camps in > canonizer. > RQT makes no predictions about what qualia are. It only says that we have > qualia, and that conscious knowledge is qualitative. It is all the many > supporting sibling sub camps making different predictions about what qualia > are. It is only the minority sub camp "Molecular Materialism > " (NOT RQT) that > is predicting that our description of how redness behaves in a synapse > could be the objective description of what we subjectively know to be > redness. > > "The rays [of light], to speak properly, are not coloured. In them >> there is nothing else than a certain power to stir up a sensation of >> this or that colour . . . to determine by what modes or actions light >> produceth in our minds the phantasm of colour is not so easie." >> >> In fact, Chalmers explicitly reframed Newton's "color problem" as the >> hard problem so all you have done is undo Chalmers' contribution to >> the field. >> > > Yes, both Chalmers, Stathis, and the popular majority under RQT are > functionalists. We all agree on RQT, Functionalists are just predicting > that qualia are independent to any physical substrate. And Stathis agrees > with "Chalmers" and all other functionalists that there is a "hard mind > body problem". The primary reason so many people are "functionalists" is > because of the Neural Substitution Argument > . > Reclassifying the color problem as a* hard problem* is what has made > Chalmers so famous. > > I'm in a different camp > . Functionalist > are the only ones with a "hard problem" which they have no idea how to > address, let alone having any way of verifying what they think must be. > While my prediction is that they will first falsify "glutamate" as being > the same as "redness" and then experimentalists will substitute glutamate > with something else physical. Your "signalling pathway model" is a great > model. It's about the only prediction of what qualia are that nobody has > created a camp for yet. Experimental results could certainly verify it is > a "readiness pathway" that we experience as redness right? Would you be > willing to help us create a "signalling pathway model" camp, so > experimentalists have another way to test for this qualia possibility? But > if experimentalists found a particular "pathway" that always resulted in > subjective redness, then this same "pathway" would always produce the same > redness no matter what brain it was in, right? In other words, we would > replace "glutamate" with whatever was the "redness pathway". Then we would > have a qualitative definition of what the abstract description of what > "pathway redness" was describing, right? And we would have an objective > way to observe redness, whenever we saw "pathway redness." But if this was > the case, a "signalling pathway model" couldn't be a functionalist model, > because functionalism predicts qualia must be independent of anything > physical, including any physical "pathway" right, Stathis? > They must be independent of any PARTICULAR physical physics or physical substrate, because we can always imagine that the physical interactions due to that physics or substrate are replicated with different physics or a different substrate, and if this changes the qualia it would render the idea of qualia absurd. This is the one and only point of the substitution argument, which I don?t think you have ever understood. If an experimentalists discovers which of all our abstract descriptions of > physical stuff in the brain is a description of subjective redness, that > will falsify functionalism. In other words no matter what a functionalists > attempts, they will never be able to produce redness. The only way to > produce redness will be to produce whatever physics it is that can be > directly experienced as redness. If someone discovers what it is that has > a redness quality, this will falsify all but THE ONE competing sub camp to > RQT which can't be falsified. If experimentalists prove what redness is, > this will confirm how the substitution argument is a fallacy > and that > Chalmers, Stathes, and all the other functionalists just lead us down a > mistaken rat hole, taking us away from a solution to what is not a 'hard > problem' but is only an easy color problem. They will be judged by our > children to have set the field of consciousness way back, and they will > have stood in the way of what should have been resolved, many years ago, as > a simple color problem. They will clearly understand how worrying about > the substitution argument just took us away from understand consciousness. > > So, now, it's up to the experimentalists to prove which of the many sub > camps of RQT, making competing predictions about the nature of qualia, is > the one that can't be falsified. > > Reframing the "the hard mind-body problem" as the "color problem" does >> not help in the slightest because the "color problem" has remained >> unsolved for over 300 years and was first voiced by Isaac Newton in >> the 17th century: >> > > Exactly, and the only reason is, is because everyone has been, to date, > qualia blind. Non of the sub camps of RQT can be falsified as long as all > experimentalists are qualia blind. To me, most of the theories and all the > religious stuff, are what I think of as 'crap in the gap'. (similar to the > idea of the God of the Gaps in evolutionary theory) As long as we can't > falsify things, people can believe any crap they want to believe. Qualia > blind people "correct" for any physical differences observed in the brain, > labeling it all with the single word 'red'. Again, doing this makes one > blind to any different physical qualities they may be detecting. As long > as experimentalists continue to do this, they can't falsify any of the sub > camps to RQT. The prediction is that once experimentalists stop doing > this, once they start using more than one word for all things red, and once > they stop ignoring differences, and start tracking physical differences in > our conscious physical knowledge, we will then have the tools required to > discover what it is that does have a redness quality. This will give us > the required dictionary to connect our abstract descriptions, like > glutamate or 'redness channel" or whatever it turns out to be, to > subjective redness. Discovering what it is that has a redness quality will > finally falsify all but the one sub camp to RQT making the correct > predictions about the nature of qualia. This will close the last remaining > gap in our understanding of consciousness, and finally eliminate all the > crap in this remaining wide open gap in our scientific understanding caused > by "Naive Realism " in > general and more specifically, qualia blindness > . > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 05:44:06 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 21:44:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead Message-ID: John Clark wrote: > Freeman Dyson has died at the age of 96. He didn't just dream up the Dyson Sphere he was a great physicist and wrote a number of wonderful books. There is a story about one of his books where I was involved. I met Freeman at one of the early Space Manufacturing conferences. He was deeply involved and friends with fellow physics professor GK O'Neill At the1979 Conf, I talked him into asking his publisher to let the L5 News print the chapter "Pilgrims, Saints, and Spacemen" from his about to be published book _Disturbing the Universe_. If you don't have a copy handy, it is here: https://space.nss.org/media/L5-News-1979-08.pdf/ It is the first story in the issue. Dyson made a case in that chapter that the previous colonization models would not work for O'Neill's space colonies because the transportation cost was about 300 times too much to be self-funded. If you took his analysis seriously, it took away much of the personal motivation people had for space colonies. A few years ago (2016) he was in residence at UCSD. At the time the Beamed Energy Bootstrapping animation was new so I took it to his office and showed it to him. He was not much impressed. Keith PS The connection would be remote if at all, but one of my great grandmothers was a Dyson. Keith From avant at sollegro.com Tue Mar 3 04:39:21 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 20:39:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Four pieces of evidence from before the Big Bang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200302203921.Horde.PBjHDrecg1aN-TNVUY0F5Mk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: > If the idea is right then inflation IS the Big Bang. According to the > theory all you need to do to get things going and create a new universe is > to concentrate 10 grams of matter (about the mass of a pencil) into a > volume with a diameter of 10^-26 meters; by comparison a proton has a > diameter of 10^-15 meters and the Planck Length is 1.6*10^-35 meters. As > far as I know there is no specific name for this. That is kind of an odd figure. The Schwarzchild radius for 10 grams is approximately 1.5*10^-29 meters. So does this mean that every collapsing star creates a new universe on the way to becoming a black hole? Or does it have to be a very small amount of matter like literally 10 grams or close to it? Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Tue Mar 3 04:25:48 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 20:25:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? Message-ID: <20200302202548.Horde.ya1cdK4Tn4G5uPyH32TwDcE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> You might want to Google Uighurs (Mongolian-Chinese Muslims) and how the Chinese government sends them to re-education camps to break them of their religion and make them loyal communists. And if they persist in practicing their religious beliefs after being sent to re-education camps, then they get their organs harvested for transplant. https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9 Stuart LaForge Quoting Bill Wallace: > The problem with state atheism as an example of militant actions is that > atheism is not the cause of the actions. It's mainly territory and such, > not trying to convert believers into nonbelievers. Come to think of it, I > have never heard of that in my life. > bill w > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 8:58 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism >> >> >> On 2020. Mar 2., Mon at 15:49, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> There are lots of militant religious organizations and many violent >>> deeds. I have yet to see any attributed to militant atheists. Examples >>> please? bill w >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 1:57 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Ben, I'm aware of the "violence and coerciveness" that has often >>>> been practiced by organized believers. I'm also aware of the >>>> equivalent violence and coerciveness that has often been practiced by >>>> organized atheists. Here in Eastern Europe, everyone has horror >>>> stories to tell about the violent and coercive persecution of >>>> believers that happened until a couple of decades ago. >>>> >>>> And this is my best example of how the "arguments" of atheists against >>>> believers fail: Their own camp is guilty of exactly the same violent >>>> and coercive behavior of which they accuse the other camp. >>>> >>>> As you say, philosophical convictions shouldn't be blamed for the >>>> violent and coercive behavior of assholes in both camps (just like >>>> football shouldn't be blamed for violent hooliganism). But I think >>>> that, in both camps, the reasonable majority should disown and >>>> denounce unreasonable minorities. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 12:30 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 29/02/2020 22:01, Giulio Prisco wrote: >>>>> > my point is that the ?arguments? of atheists against believers can be >>>>> > redirected at the atheists themselves, who often behave exactly like >>>>> > fundamentalist believers. >>>>> >>>>> Can you give us some examples of these arguments? >>>>> >>>>> From your use of quotes, I take it you don't think they are valid >>>>> arguments in the first place, but I'd like to hear what they are. >>>>> >>>>> I also take it that when you talk about the behaviour of fundamentalist >>>>> believers, you are excluding the violence and coerciveness which most >>>>> people think is the problem with fundamentalism. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 10:02:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 05:02:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Four pieces of evidence from before the Big Bang In-Reply-To: <20200302203921.Horde.PBjHDrecg1aN-TNVUY0F5Mk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200302203921.Horde.PBjHDrecg1aN-TNVUY0F5Mk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 12:55 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Quoting John Clark: > If the idea is right then inflation IS the Big Bang. According to the >> > theory all you need to do to get things going and create a new universe >> is >> > to concentrate 10 grams of matter (about the mass of a pencil) into a >> > volume with a diameter of 10^-26 meters; by comparison a proton has a >> > diameter of 10^-15 meters and the Planck Length is 1.6*10^-35 meters. As >> > far as I know there is no specific name for this. > > > > *That is kind of an odd figure. * You're right I made an error. I quoted that number from memory after reading Brian Greens excellent book "The Hidden Reality" but forgot it was in centimeters not meters. This is the relevant paragraph: *"All the inflationary idea needs as a given is the small amount of initial energy which would start the process of inflation. According to calculations this would be a small speck of space 10 to the negative 26 centimeters in size and its mass would be roughly 10 grams. Such an infinitesimal grain would then experience a violent expansion such that its size will become bigger than our observable Universe in a fraction of a second.The main remaining question in our discussion is whether or not the inflation field actually exists."* > > > *So does this mean that every collapsing star creates a new universe on > the way to becoming a black hole?* The math says that is what would have to happen if the inflation field actually exists, but nobody knows for sure if it does. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 17:10:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:10:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: <20200302202548.Horde.ya1cdK4Tn4G5uPyH32TwDcE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200302202548.Horde.ya1cdK4Tn4G5uPyH32TwDcE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: I think the Chinese are acting on the part of communism, not atheism. That group of Muslims is a political problem, not a religious one. Religion is just an excuse to teach them a lesson in who is in charge. Other religions are getting left alone. If you know of any groups of atheists that behavior like terrorists, I'd like to read about it. bill w On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 2:37 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You might want to Google Uighurs (Mongolian-Chinese Muslims) and how > the Chinese government sends them to re-education camps to break them > of their religion and make them loyal communists. And if they persist > in practicing their religious beliefs after being sent to re-education > camps, then they get their organs harvested for transplant. > > > https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9 > > Stuart LaForge > > > > Quoting Bill Wallace: > > > The problem with state atheism as an example of militant actions is that > > atheism is not the cause of the actions. It's mainly territory and such, > > not trying to convert believers into nonbelievers. Come to think of it, I > > have never heard of that in my life. > > bill w > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 8:58 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism > >> > >> > >> On 2020. Mar 2., Mon at 15:49, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >>> There are lots of militant religious organizations and many violent > >>> deeds. I have yet to see any attributed to militant atheists. > Examples > >>> please? bill w > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 1:57 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Ben, I'm aware of the "violence and coerciveness" that has often > >>>> been practiced by organized believers. I'm also aware of the > >>>> equivalent violence and coerciveness that has often been practiced by > >>>> organized atheists. Here in Eastern Europe, everyone has horror > >>>> stories to tell about the violent and coercive persecution of > >>>> believers that happened until a couple of decades ago. > >>>> > >>>> And this is my best example of how the "arguments" of atheists against > >>>> believers fail: Their own camp is guilty of exactly the same violent > >>>> and coercive behavior of which they accuse the other camp. > >>>> > >>>> As you say, philosophical convictions shouldn't be blamed for the > >>>> violent and coercive behavior of assholes in both camps (just like > >>>> football shouldn't be blamed for violent hooliganism). But I think > >>>> that, in both camps, the reasonable majority should disown and > >>>> denounce unreasonable minorities. > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 12:30 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> On 29/02/2020 22:01, Giulio Prisco wrote: > >>>>> > my point is that the ?arguments? of atheists against believers can > be > >>>>> > redirected at the atheists themselves, who often behave exactly > like > >>>>> > fundamentalist believers. > >>>>> > >>>>> Can you give us some examples of these arguments? > >>>>> > >>>>> From your use of quotes, I take it you don't think they are valid > >>>>> arguments in the first place, but I'd like to hear what they are. > >>>>> > >>>>> I also take it that when you talk about the behaviour of > fundamentalist > >>>>> believers, you are excluding the violence and coerciveness which most > >>>>> people think is the problem with fundamentalism. > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Ben Zaiboc > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Mar 3 19:32:11 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 19:32:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/03/2020 22:49, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > The problem with state atheism as an example of militant actions is > that atheism is not the cause of the actions. This is exactly my point, which I don't feel that Guilio is getting. Atheism in itself, does not produce or encourage, or suggest in any way, any behaviour that could be called 'extreme', 'fundamentalist' or 'militant'. Or anything else, for that matter. This is why I'm saying there is no such thing, /can't/ be any such thing, as 'fundamentalist atheism'. Equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be atheists, with people who are violent, coercive, etc. /because of////their religion/ is false. There are very many examples of religious fundamentalists, but none of atheist 'fundamentalists'. It's a nonsensical concept (as I've said, I /really really/, furiously, in the extreme and with a passion, don't play football. How does this distinguish me from someone who merely doesn't play football? That's right, Not at all. It's a ridiculous thing to say (note: I'm not saying I hate football. I don't. I don't care about it one way or the other, I'm just not interested, and don't play it. I also don't think that football has any place in government or the law, that nobody should be required to play it, whether they want to or not, or judged by their ability at it or attitude towards it, and that it should not be given special preference over other sports, or that players should have any special privileges over other people)). I did ask for examples of this atheism-driven fundamentalism, and examples of the "the arguments of atheists against believers" that "can be redirected at the atheists themselves, who often behave exactly like fundamentalist believers", but so far have got nothing except that irrelevant link to State Mandated Atheism. What's the difference between that, and for example, State Mandated Islam? The latter is driven (certainly in many cases, if not all) by the religion itself. Is the former driven by the dictates of atheism (what are they? does anyone know?*)? Or is it driven by the controlling tendencies and political convictions of the people in power? I think we know the answer to that. * I do! But there's only one. And it's hardly a 'dictate', it's just a definition. You don't believe in gods. That's it. Nothing else required. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 00:03:22 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 17:03:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found In-Reply-To: References: <20200225131712.Horde.d6h5SLVFlIYbMLyp3zaD4d_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Hi Stathis, So I still haven't convinced you I fully understand absolutely everything about your beliefs, model, and thinking. OK, let me try again, yet again. I know that all of today's computational systems are made of discrete components, where each component has inputs which result in outputs. I know that any of these individual discrete components can be replaced with myriads of different physical instantiations, and that as long as all possible inputs map to the same output of that component, these sets of discrete systems must in all aspects, both internal and external, function the same, no matter what physics is used to implement them. If any of the physical changes to any of these discrete components, which didn't change the mapping of the inputs to the outputs, changed the qualia, that would render the idea of qualia absurd or contradictory, hence there is a "hard problem". So, did I miss anything? Now, can you describe to me any of the significant problems I see with any of that? Brent On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 9:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 14:54, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Hi Stuart, >> Thanks for the feedback on my terminology. That really helps. >> But, it would help if you could provide more evidence that you understand >> why I'm using the terminology I am. >> Much of what you are saying is evidence to me you don't yet understand >> the model I'm trying to describe and what "qualia blindness" means. >> >> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 9:28 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Quoting Brent Allsop: >>> >>> > The only >>> > thing everyone disagrees about is the nature of qualia. Communicating >>> the >>> > high level RQT ideas about what 'qualia blindness' is, and how there >>> is not >>> > a "hard mind body problem", it's just a color problem is already very >>> > difficult to communicate. >>> >>> "Qualia blindness" sounds too pejorative to be useful as a term of >>> art. You should stop using it especially since you tend to apply it to >>> people who disagree with you and you have so much trouble explaining >>> what it means. Perhaps "qualia denial" or "qualia denier" would be a >>> better and more accurate term, since even Daniel Dennett experiences >>> qualia, even though he doesn't believe them to be important. >>> >> >> Saying this kind of stuff is strong evidence that you still don't >> understand the model I'm trying to describe. >> >> Notice that even Dennett's "Predictive Bayesian Coding theory >> " is in a >> supporting sub camp to RQT >> . Supporting >> sub camps agree with everything stated in all their parent camps. Sibling >> camps are the ones that disagree, and all the sibling sub camps to RQT are >> the ones predicting different things qualia could be. I don't know of any >> "qualia dinier"s (evidence for this is provided by the fact that RQT has >> near unanimous expert consensus) as that just would be irrational. >> Everyone knows, absolutely, more than they know anything, that they have >> qualia, and what their qualia are like. Both John and Dennett agree that >> we have qualia. John just thinks that we will never be able to objectively >> observe them, and Dennett says we should "quine" (means ignore) them. They >> aren't "deniers" as most people mistakenly think, and is falsely >> portrayed in Wikipedia . >> >> "Qualia Blindness" is similar to the "pejorative" term "Naive Realism". >> That fact that it is "pejorative" doesn't really matter compared to the >> facts it is describing. In fact, some people think the fact that "Naive >> Realism" is factually "Naive" is a good thing >> . I would bet that >> John would agree that his view is 'qualia blind' and that he is perfectly >> OK with using one word for all things 'red' as he has indicated multiple >> times. And of course, saying you should ignore qualia, as Dennett does, is >> the very definition of being qualia blind. Dennett openly admits that. >> Qualia blindness is as qualia blindness does. If you only have one word, >> for all things red, that is, by definition, qualia blindness. It is simply >> a fact that having one word for all things 'red' tells you nothing of the >> actual physical qualities of any of the many things it is a label for. >> Having a model (and the language of such) of the physical world that >> ignores, or does not include qualia, is, by definition, qualia blind. If >> you don't like the term "qualia blind" then every time I use it please >> substitute it with: "Have amy model of physical reality that does not >> include objectively observable qualia." Or anyone that claims we should >> "quine qualia" and so on. >> >> >> >>> > Incidentally, I think you might have been too reductionist in your >>> >> search for the material correlates of color. Material redness is not a >>> >> molecule, material redness is the L-cone cell in your retina that >>> >> fires more strongly in response to red light than green light. M-cone >>> >> cells conversely fire more strongly in response to green light than >>> >> red. >>> > >>> > >>> > Um, yea. What you say below (as illustrated in this "Perception >>> Inverted >>> > < >>> https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/?chapter=Perception_Inverted >>> >" >>> > section of the video) proves what you say above is mistaken, right? >>> >>> Not at all. Inverted perception in no way proves that qualia are not >>> "phantasms of the mind" to use Newton's terminology. In fact, the >>> rewiring I described between the retina and the visual cortex is >>> specifically in reference to the signalling pathway model. >>> >> >> More evidence you are not understanding what I'm trying to say. If you put >> a red green signal inverter in the optic nerve >> , >> The light and the "L-cone" will be firing 'red', but the knowledge will not >> have a redness quality, it will have a greeness quality. This fact >> necessarily proves that neither the L-cone, nore the 'red' light, (as you >> are claiming) have anything to do with the physical quality of knowledge >> (since it isn't redness, it is greeness when the inverter is in place). >> >> > This camp is the simplest and most importantly, easy to falsify. If >>> > someone experiences redness, with no glutamate, redness = glutamate >>> > prediction falsified. The ease of falsifiability is what is important. >>> > For example, I see no possible way to falsify most of the other >>> theories, >>> > especially the leading consensus camp which Stathis supports: >>> "Functionalism >>> > ". If >>> they >>> > could provide any easily falsifiable example of what redness could be, >>> I'd >>> > be happy to use that in place of glutamate, but they never provide >>> anything >>> > even close to that. >>> >>> All these camps seem like little more than philosophical >>> hair-splitting to me. What distinguishes functionalism from RQT except >>> for the assumed material basis for qualia? >> >> >> Evidence that you don't understand RQT, nor the structure of camps in >> canonizer. >> RQT makes no predictions about what qualia are. It only says that we >> have qualia, and that conscious knowledge is qualitative. It is all the >> many supporting sibling sub camps making different predictions about what >> qualia are. It is only the minority sub camp "Molecular Materialism >> " (NOT RQT) >> that is predicting that our description of how redness behaves in a synapse >> could be the objective description of what we subjectively know to be >> redness. >> >> "The rays [of light], to speak properly, are not coloured. In them >>> there is nothing else than a certain power to stir up a sensation of >>> this or that colour . . . to determine by what modes or actions light >>> produceth in our minds the phantasm of colour is not so easie." >>> >>> In fact, Chalmers explicitly reframed Newton's "color problem" as the >>> hard problem so all you have done is undo Chalmers' contribution to >>> the field. >>> >> >> Yes, both Chalmers, Stathis, and the popular majority under RQT are >> functionalists. We all agree on RQT, Functionalists are just predicting >> that qualia are independent to any physical substrate. And Stathis agrees >> with "Chalmers" and all other functionalists that there is a "hard mind >> body problem". The primary reason so many people are "functionalists" is >> because of the Neural Substitution Argument >> . >> Reclassifying the color problem as a* hard problem* is what has made >> Chalmers so famous. >> >> I'm in a different camp >> . >> Functionalist are the only ones with a "hard problem" which they have no >> idea how to address, let alone having any way of verifying what they think >> must be. While my prediction is that they will first falsify "glutamate" >> as being the same as "redness" and then experimentalists will substitute >> glutamate with something else physical. Your "signalling pathway model" is >> a great model. It's about the only prediction of what qualia are that >> nobody has created a camp for yet. Experimental results could certainly >> verify it is a "readiness pathway" that we experience as redness right? >> Would you be willing to help us create a "signalling pathway model" camp, >> so experimentalists have another way to test for this qualia possibility? >> But if experimentalists found a particular "pathway" that always resulted >> in subjective redness, then this same "pathway" would always produce the >> same redness no matter what brain it was in, right? In other words, we >> would replace "glutamate" with whatever was the "redness pathway". Then we >> would have a qualitative definition of what the abstract description of >> what "pathway redness" was describing, right? And we would have an >> objective way to observe redness, whenever we saw "pathway redness." But >> if this was the case, a "signalling pathway model" couldn't be a >> functionalist model, because functionalism predicts qualia must be >> independent of anything physical, including any physical "pathway" right, >> Stathis? >> > > They must be independent of any PARTICULAR physical physics or physical > substrate, because we can always imagine that the physical interactions due > to that physics or substrate are replicated with different physics or a > different substrate, and if this changes the qualia it would render the > idea of qualia absurd. This is the one and only point of the substitution > argument, which I don?t think you have ever understood. > > If an experimentalists discovers which of all our abstract descriptions of >> physical stuff in the brain is a description of subjective redness, that >> will falsify functionalism. In other words no matter what a functionalists >> attempts, they will never be able to produce redness. The only way to >> produce redness will be to produce whatever physics it is that can be >> directly experienced as redness. If someone discovers what it is that has >> a redness quality, this will falsify all but THE ONE competing sub camp to >> RQT which can't be falsified. If experimentalists prove what redness is, >> this will confirm how the substitution argument is a fallacy >> and that >> Chalmers, Stathes, and all the other functionalists just lead us down a >> mistaken rat hole, taking us away from a solution to what is not a 'hard >> problem' but is only an easy color problem. They will be judged by our >> children to have set the field of consciousness way back, and they will >> have stood in the way of what should have been resolved, many years ago, as >> a simple color problem. They will clearly understand how worrying about >> the substitution argument just took us away from understand consciousness. >> >> So, now, it's up to the experimentalists to prove which of the many sub >> camps of RQT, making competing predictions about the nature of qualia, is >> the one that can't be falsified. >> >> Reframing the "the hard mind-body problem" as the "color problem" does >>> not help in the slightest because the "color problem" has remained >>> unsolved for over 300 years and was first voiced by Isaac Newton in >>> the 17th century: >>> >> >> Exactly, and the only reason is, is because everyone has been, to date, >> qualia blind. Non of the sub camps of RQT can be falsified as long as all >> experimentalists are qualia blind. To me, most of the theories and all the >> religious stuff, are what I think of as 'crap in the gap'. (similar to the >> idea of the God of the Gaps in evolutionary theory) As long as we can't >> falsify things, people can believe any crap they want to believe. Qualia >> blind people "correct" for any physical differences observed in the brain, >> labeling it all with the single word 'red'. Again, doing this makes one >> blind to any different physical qualities they may be detecting. As long >> as experimentalists continue to do this, they can't falsify any of the sub >> camps to RQT. The prediction is that once experimentalists stop doing >> this, once they start using more than one word for all things red, and once >> they stop ignoring differences, and start tracking physical differences in >> our conscious physical knowledge, we will then have the tools required to >> discover what it is that does have a redness quality. This will give us >> the required dictionary to connect our abstract descriptions, like >> glutamate or 'redness channel" or whatever it turns out to be, to >> subjective redness. Discovering what it is that has a redness quality will >> finally falsify all but the one sub camp to RQT making the correct >> predictions about the nature of qualia. This will close the last remaining >> gap in our understanding of consciousness, and finally eliminate all the >> crap in this remaining wide open gap in our scientific understanding caused >> by "Naive Realism " in >> general and more specifically, qualia blindness >> . >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 01:29:29 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:29:29 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found In-Reply-To: References: <20200225131712.Horde.d6h5SLVFlIYbMLyp3zaD4d_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 at 11:05, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Stathis, > So I still haven't convinced you I fully understand absolutely everything > about your beliefs, model, and thinking. > OK, let me try again, yet again. > > I know that all of today's computational systems are made of discrete > components, where each component has inputs which result in outputs. > I know that any of these individual discrete components can be replaced > with myriads of different physical instantiations, and that as long as all > possible inputs map to the same output of that component, these sets of > discrete systems must in all aspects, both internal and external, function > the same, no matter what physics is used to implement them. If any of the > physical changes to any of these discrete components, which didn't > change the mapping of the inputs to the outputs, changed the qualia, that > would render the idea of qualia absurd or contradictory, hence there is a > "hard problem". > > So, did I miss anything? > The last phrase, ?hence there is a ?hard problem??, should not be included. The ?hard problem? is quite a separate issue. Now, can you describe to me any of the significant problems I see with any > of that? > I may have this wrong, and if so please forgive me, but you have said that the qualia affect behaviour so the behaviour would change if the qualia change, and also you have said that behaviour could be the same even though the qualia are different, as in the example of the three strawberry-picking robots. I don?t think these are valid objections. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 06:22:20 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 00:22:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Graphene In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They actually have a link for joining their team. It?s exciting but sadly I don?t have any skills that might be useful for them. Maybe girl Friday. SR Ballard > On Feb 10, 2020, at 3:10 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > High quality Graphene (sheets of carbon only one atom thick) is 200 times stronger than the strongest steel and yet its lighter (2.27 grams per cubic centimeter compared with 7.75 for steel's lightest alloy), and it's a much better conductor of heat and electricity than steel or even copper. But making Graphene had been notoriously expensive because it took so much energy and could only be made in very small amounts. In the January 27 2020 issue of the journal Nature DuY X Luong and associates report on a new way to make it that would use only $100 worth of electricity for each ton of high quality Graphene produced. In addition the new method requires no furnace or solvents and produced no reactive waste gases, they make it by vaporizing carbon with a powerful electrical current in a vacuum chamber. And the starting carbon feedstock need not be purified, they say they can literally make high quality Graphene from garbage. > > Gram-scale bottom-up flash graphene synthesis > > A new company called "Universal Matter" has already started up to commercialize this discovery. A space elevator anyone? > > Universal Matter > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 07:01:01 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:01:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Freeman_Dyson_=281923=E2=80=932020=29=3A_Inspiri?= =?utf-8?q?ng_quotes_=282=29?= Message-ID: Freeman Dyson (1923?2020): Inspiring quotes (2) To celebrate Freeman Dyson, I?ve been reading again all his books. Here?s a selection of Dyson quotes about the space frontier... https://turingchurch.net/freeman-dyson-1923-2020-inspiring-quotes-2-ddefe14e73e1 From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Mar 4 07:47:12 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:47:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ec1eab9-7232-cbdc-0267-fbe32c065211@zaiboc.net> On 04/03/2020 06:22, billw wrote: > I think the Chinese are acting on the part of communism, not atheism.? > That group of Muslims is a political problem, not a religious one.? > Religion is just an excuse to teach them a lesson in who is in > charge.? Other religions are getting left alone.? If you know of any > groups of atheists that behavior like terrorists, I'd like to read > about it. I'd like to qualify that: If you know of any groups of atheists that behave like terrorists /because of their atheism/, I'd like to read about it. I'm sure there are groups of people who behave like terrorists and also happen to be atheists. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 09:05:36 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:05:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: re "Equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be atheists, with people who are violent, coercive, etc. because of their religion is false." Not so. I'm equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be atheists, with with people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be believers. If you insist on adding "because of their religion" to the second part, then I will insist on adding "because of their atheism" to the first part, because I really don't see any difference between these two totally symmetric cases. I can't be talked out my point. Assuming that you also can't be talked out of yours, I suggest to end this discussion here. On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 8:33 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 02/03/2020 22:49, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > The problem with state atheism as an example of militant actions is that atheism is not the cause of the actions. > > > This is exactly my point, which I don't feel that Guilio is getting. Atheism in itself, does not produce or encourage, or suggest in any way, any behaviour that could be called 'extreme', 'fundamentalist' or 'militant'. Or anything else, for that matter. This is why I'm saying there is no such thing, can't be any such thing, as 'fundamentalist atheism'. > > Equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be atheists, with people who are violent, coercive, etc. because of their religion is false. There are very many examples of religious fundamentalists, but none of atheist 'fundamentalists'. It's a nonsensical concept (as I've said, I really really, furiously, in the extreme and with a passion, don't play football. How does this distinguish me from someone who merely doesn't play football? That's right, Not at all. It's a ridiculous thing to say (note: I'm not saying I hate football. I don't. I don't care about it one way or the other, I'm just not interested, and don't play it. I also don't think that football has any place in government or the law, that nobody should be required to play it, whether they want to or not, or judged by their ability at it or attitude towards it, and that it should not be given special preference over other sports, or that players should have any special privileges over other people)). > > I did ask for examples of this atheism-driven fundamentalism, and examples of the "the arguments of atheists against believers" that "can be redirected at the atheists themselves, who often behave exactly like fundamentalist believers", but so far have got nothing except that irrelevant link to State Mandated Atheism. What's the difference between that, and for example, State Mandated Islam? The latter is driven (certainly in many cases, if not all) by the religion itself. Is the former driven by the dictates of atheism (what are they? does anyone know?*)? Or is it driven by the controlling tendencies and political convictions of the people in power? I think we know the answer to that. > > * I do! But there's only one. And it's hardly a 'dictate', it's just a definition. You don't believe in gods. That's it. Nothing else required. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From sparge at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 12:45:14 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:45:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 2:34 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This is exactly my point, which I don't feel that Guilio is getting. > Atheism in itself, does not produce or encourage, or suggest in any way, > any behaviour that could be called 'extreme', 'fundamentalist' or > 'militant'. Or anything else, for that matter. This is why I'm saying there > is no such thing, *can't* be any such thing, as 'fundamentalist atheism'. > I think "can't" is too strong. If someone so atheist that they feel compelled to rid the world of theists, I'd say "fundamentalist atheism" might be a label for that, though "fundamental antitheist" might be better. That said, I don't think that's what's behind state atheism. Equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be atheists, > with people who are violent, coercive, etc. *because of* *their religion* > is false. There are very many examples of religious fundamentalists, but > none of atheist 'fundamentalists'. It's a nonsensical concept (as I've > said, I *really really*, furiously, in the extreme and with a passion, > don't play football. How does this distinguish me from someone who merely > doesn't play football? > If you take an AR/AK and start shooting at football players, you become an antifootballer. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 13:14:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:14:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: <20200302202548.Horde.ya1cdK4Tn4G5uPyH32TwDcE@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: In his book "God Is Not Great" Christopher Hitchens tells of the time he was stopped by a roadblock in Northern Ireland. The guard asked him "are you a protestant or a catholic?", Hitchens replied "I'm a atheist", the guard said "but are you a catholic atheist or a protestant atheist?". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 13:40:09 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 08:40:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 4:08 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > I'm equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be > atheists, with with people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to > be believers.* In his novel "Quartet" Spinoza said "*Good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but to have good people do bad things, for that you need religion*". *> I can't be talked out my point.* I have absolutely no loyalty to ideas so I can be talked out of any point, all that's needed is a logical argument that is stronger than my own, when that happens I abandon my previous position and embrace the new one as my own until something even better comes along. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 15:48:13 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:48:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Graphene Message-ID: > On Feb 10, 2020, at 3:10 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: snip > > A new company called "Universal Matter" has already started up to commercialize this discovery. A space elevator anyone? Not likely. At the tensile strength required, the 6 member rings become unstable to 5 and 7 member rings and the graphene unzips like a run in a stocking. Sad since I am a space elevator fan. https://www.google.com/search?q=moving+cable+space+elevator+henson&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjTnqbZj4HoAhXP7Z4KHVNjBOMQ_AUoAXoECA0QAw&biw=1056&bih=503#imgrc=54id5T_1Q2oH8M The photo is a static model of a moving cable space elevator. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 23:21:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:21:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] book Message-ID: I cannot recommend more highly the 2011 masterpiece by Robert Trivers, with whom most of you will be familiar. He is a biologist and all-around intelligent guy who takes every social science to task (although he approves of the new evolutionary psychology). He analyzes all U.S. wars of the 20th century. Religion, economics, everything. He gives us examples from subhuman subjects such as ants. Very idea dense. Slow reading, a good thing. No vague concepts. Lots of studies of the best sort. Some humor: "The safety culture at Japanese nuclear reactors was so bad that NASA could admire it." Highest recommendation. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 23:27:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:27:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] book Message-ID: Excuse me: The Folly of Fools: The Logic of Deceit of Self-deception in Human Life - Trivers bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 04:16:47 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 21:16:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found In-Reply-To: References: <20200225131712.Horde.d6h5SLVFlIYbMLyp3zaD4d_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Hi Stathis, With this it still appears that you are just mapping what I am saying, into your model. There is still no evidence that you understand my model. In your simpler model, only the external behavior (picking the strawberries) matters. But my model is more complex and includes additional behavior you seem to ignore (are blind to?) like responses to: ?What is red knowledge like for you?? In other words, parsing what I say, into your model, it becomes a contradiction where I say both change in qualia results in change in behavior AND the change in qualia doesn?t result in change in behavior (as in the example of the three strawberry-picking robots). But correctly parsing what I say into my more complex model, it means something different, and isn?t a contradiction. And even if the 'hard problem' is a separate issue, no such "hard problem' exists in my more complex model, like it does in your simpler model. On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 6:30 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 at 11:05, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Hi Stathis, >> So I still haven't convinced you I fully understand absolutely everything >> about your beliefs, model, and thinking. >> OK, let me try again, yet again. >> >> I know that all of today's computational systems are made of discrete >> components, where each component has inputs which result in outputs. >> I know that any of these individual discrete components can be replaced >> with myriads of different physical instantiations, and that as long as all >> possible inputs map to the same output of that component, these sets of >> discrete systems must in all aspects, both internal and external, function >> the same, no matter what physics is used to implement them. If any of the >> physical changes to any of these discrete components, which didn't >> change the mapping of the inputs to the outputs, changed the qualia, that >> would render the idea of qualia absurd or contradictory, hence there is a >> "hard problem". >> >> So, did I miss anything? >> > > The last phrase, ?hence there is a ?hard problem??, should not be > included. The ?hard problem? is quite a separate issue. > > Now, can you describe to me any of the significant problems I see with any >> of that? >> > > I may have this wrong, and if so please forgive me, but you have said that > the qualia affect behaviour so the behaviour would change if the qualia > change, and also you have said that behaviour could be the same even though > the qualia are different, as in the example of the three strawberry-picking > robots. I don?t think these are valid objections. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 07:52:41 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:52:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John. Re "I have absolutely no loyalty to ideas so I can be talked out of any point,..," - I can be talked out of *almost* any point (if I hear good solid arguments). But some times you have heard an argument hundreds of times, always found it very weak, and know it by heart. In these cases, I don't spend too much time on the issue: I know that their argument won't persuade me, and I know that my counter-argument won't persuade them. I am perfectly happy with agreeing to disagree. If you remember my posts to this list of 20 years ago you remember that I was leaning toward atheism (though never militant atheism). Today, I lean toward some sort of religious faith. So I have changed my mind on this point, also as a result of discussions with militant atheists on this very mailing list! To Spinoza's quote (often attributed to Steven Weinberg), Freeman Dyson added: "And for bad people to do good things - that takes religion." On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 2:42 PM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 4:08 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > >> > I'm equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be atheists, with with people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be believers. > > > In his novel "Quartet" Spinoza said "Good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but to have good people do bad things, for that you need religion". > >> > I can't be talked out my point. > > > I have absolutely no loyalty to ideas so I can be talked out of any point, all that's needed is a logical argument that is stronger than my own, when that happens I abandon my previous position and embrace the new one as my own until something even better comes along. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 10:46:21 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 18:46:21 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wish he had been signed up for cryonics. Oh, well... On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 5:49 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Freeman Dyson has died at the age of 96. He didn't just dream up the Dyson > Sphere he was a great physicist and wrote a number of wonderful books. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tech101 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 11:43:14 2020 From: tech101 at gmail.com (Adam A. Ford) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 22:43:14 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In celebration of Freeman Dyson's life and achievements, Anders Sandberg (Future of Humanity Institute) discusses Dyson's influence on himself and others. How might advanced alien civilizations develop (and indeed perhaps our own)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CRit5rd4ec Kind regards, Adam A. Ford AU Mobile +61 421 979977 Chair - Science, Technology & the Future - (Meetup / Facebook / YouTube / Instagram / Twitter ) - Convener, H+ Australia | Singularity Summit Australia "A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move toward higher levels." - Albert Einstein, May 1946) On Thu, 5 Mar 2020 at 21:47, JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I wish he had been signed up for cryonics. Oh, well... > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 5:49 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Freeman Dyson has died at the age of 96. He didn't just dream up the >> Dyson Sphere he was a great physicist and wrote a number of wonderful books. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 13:46:01 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 21:46:01 +0800 Subject: [ExI] For the First Time Ever, the World Is Mostly Middle Class and Largely Old Message-ID: "For the purposes of our analysis, we define poor and vulnerable people as those who live in households with a daily spending power of less than $11 per person per day (in 2011 PPP). This includes extreme poor people (living on less than $1.90 per day) and vulnerable groups (between $1.90 and $11). By contrast, middle class and rich households, who dominate global consumer spending, are defined as those who spend more than $11 per person per day. (Read this article to learn more about these definitions.)" "If you apply these definitions globally you will see that 2019 was a pivotal year in global development. We are experiencing a double tipping point on both age and wealth dimensions. The world today is getting steadily older?mature, settled adults over the age of 30 are now half the population and growing. And the world is getting steadily richer?about half the world is now middle class or richer. When we combine income trends across demographic segments, we find that there are approximately 2.2 billion *young and poor* and the same number of *old and rich* people, while there are 1.6 billion *young and rich* and the same number of *old and poor*." https://singularityhub.com/2020/03/01/for-the-first-time-ever-the-world-is-mostly-middle-class-and-largely-old/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 13:47:57 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 21:47:57 +0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?The_World=E2=80=99s_First_Open-Source_Nuclear_Re?= =?utf-8?q?actor_Blueprint_Is_Coming_Online?= Message-ID: "To advance his vision, last week EIC launched the OPEN100 project, which Kugelmass says will provide open-source blueprints for the design, construction, and financing of a 100-megawatt nuclear reactor. He claims the reactor can be built for $300 million in less than two years, significantly decreasing the per-kilowatt cost of nuclear power." ?Nuclear power isn?t just part of the solution to addressing climate change; it is the solution,? Kugelmass said in a press release . ?OPEN100 will radically change the way we deploy nuclear power plants going forward, offering a substantially less expensive and less complicated solution.? https://singularityhub.com/2020/03/02/the-worlds-first-open-source-nuclear-reactor-blueprint-is-coming-online/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 13:50:40 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 21:50:40 +0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?US_Tech_Manufacturing_Depends_on_23_Rare_Mineral?= =?utf-8?q?s=E2=80=94and_Their_Supply_Is_at_Risk?= Message-ID: "The US has made no secret of its growing uneasiness over its reliance on China for rare-earth minerals , key ingredients in everything from smartphones to satellites. In 2017, President Trump issued an executive order that led to the U.S. National Science and Technology Council releasing a list of 35 minerals critical to the US economy whose supply could be vulnerable to disruption." "Now researchers at the US Geological Survey have gone a step further by assessing which of these minerals pose the greatest supply risk to America?s manufacturing sector. In a paper in *Science Advances* , they list 23 minerals at risk of supply disruption that could bring the country?s ability to produce some high tech products (including rechargeable batteries, thin-film solar panels, and permanent magnets) grinding to a halt." "The researchers looked at data on 52 minerals between 2007?2016 and considered 3 key risks: how dependent US manufacturers are on foreign supplies, how likely those supplies are to be disrupted, and how easily manufacturers could weather those disruptions." https://singularityhub.com/2020/02/24/how-the-supply-of-23-rare-minerals-could-derail-us-tech-manufacturing/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 13:53:49 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 21:53:49 +0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?3D_Printing_of_Body_Parts_Is_Coming_Fast?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=94but_Regulations_Are_Not_Ready?= Message-ID: "While the future looks promising from a technical and scientific perspective, it?s far from clear how bioprinting and its products will be regulated. Such uncertainty can be problematic for manufacturers and patients alike, and could prevent bioprinting from living up to its promise." https://singularityhub.com/2020/02/21/3d-printing-of-body-parts-is-coming-fast-but-regulations-are-not-ready/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 13:56:51 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 21:56:51 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Neuromodulation Is the Secret Sauce for This Adaptive, Fast-Learning AI Message-ID: "Our ability to adapt is deeply rooted within our brain?s chemical base code. Although modern AI and neurocomputation have largely focused on loosely recreating the brain?s electrical signals, chemicals are actually the prima donna of brain-wide neural transmission." "Chemical neurotransmitters not only allow most signals to jump from one neuron to the next, they also feedback and fine-tune a neuron?s electrical signals to ensure they?re functioning properly in the right contexts. This process, traditionally dubbed neuromodulation, has been front and center in neuroscience research for many decades. More recently, the idea has expanded to also include the process of directly changing electrical activity through electrode stimulation rather than chemicals." "Neural chemicals are the targets for most of our current medicinal drugs that re-jigger brain functions and states, such as anti-depressants or anxiolytics. Neuromodulation is also an immensely powerful way for the brain to flexibly adapt, which is why it?s perhaps surprising that the mechanism has rarely been explicitly incorporated into AI methods that mimic the brain." "This week, a team from the University of Liege in Belgium went old school. Using neuromodulation as inspiration, they designed a new deep learning model that explicitly adopts the mechanism to better learn adaptive behaviors. When challenged on a difficult navigational task, the team found that neuromodulation allowed the artificial neural net to better adjust to unexpected changes." ?For the first time, cognitive mechanisms identified in neuroscience are finding algorithmic applications in a multi-tasking context. This research opens perspectives in the exploitation in AI of neuromodulation, a key mechanism in the functioning of the human brain,? said study author Dr. Damien Ernst." https://singularityhub.com/2020/02/11/neuromodulation-is-the-secret-sauce-for-this-adaptive-fast-learning-ai/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 14:00:24 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 22:00:24 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Five Major Central Banks Unite to Explore Launching Their Own Digital Currencies Message-ID: "While central banks *have* taken cryptocurrencies more and more seriously over the years, they also remain the ultimate authorities any rising new form of money must reckon with before knocking down the system. If anything replaces fiat currencies (in stable economies, at least), it?d likely need central bank support or even be issued by a central bank." "To that end, the Bank of England, Bank of Japan, European Central Bank, Bank of Canada, and Sveriges Riksbank (Sweden?s central bank) along with the Bank of International Settlements recently announced that they?ve banded together to research central bank digital currencies." "The new group?co-chaired by Beno?t C?ur?, head of the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) Innovation Hub, and Jon Cunliffe, deputy governor of the Bank of England and chair of the Committee on Payments and Market Infrastructures at the BIS?will openly share their findings and experiences. They?ll look into emerging technologies, use cases, and digital currency design options, including how such currencies would work across national borders." "The group?s formation isn?t a commitment to launch a central bank digital currency, but the coalition shows how far the idea has come and how much weight it has with central banks. Indeed, a survey conducted by the BIS a year ago found some 70 percent of central banks [PDF] had central bank digital currency projects in the works or underway." https://singularityhub.com/2020/01/23/five-of-the-worlds-biggest-central-banks-unite-to-research-digital-currencies/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 14:56:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:56:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: re Dyson quote: many studies totally disconfirm this idea, that religious people are more moral than atheists. bill w On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:55 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi John. Re "I have absolutely no loyalty to ideas so I can be talked > out of any point,..," - I can be talked out of *almost* any point (if > I hear good solid arguments). But some times you have heard an > argument hundreds of times, always found it very weak, and know it by > heart. In these cases, I don't spend too much time on the issue: I > know that their argument won't persuade me, and I know that my > counter-argument won't persuade them. I am perfectly happy with > agreeing to disagree. > > If you remember my posts to this list of 20 years ago you remember > that I was leaning toward atheism (though never militant atheism). > Today, I lean toward some sort of religious faith. So I have changed > my mind on this point, also as a result of discussions with militant > atheists on this very mailing list! > > To Spinoza's quote (often attributed to Steven Weinberg), Freeman > Dyson added: "And for bad people to do good things - that takes > religion." > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 2:42 PM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 4:08 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> > I'm equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be > atheists, with with people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to > be believers. > > > > > > In his novel "Quartet" Spinoza said "Good people will do good things and > bad people will do bad things, but to have good people do bad things, for > that you need religion". > > > >> > I can't be talked out my point. > > > > > > I have absolutely no loyalty to ideas so I can be talked out of any > point, all that's needed is a logical argument that is stronger than my > own, when that happens I abandon my previous position and embrace the new > one as my own until something even better comes along. > > > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 16:16:02 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:16:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead Message-ID: JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL wrote: > I wish he had been signed up for cryonics. Oh, well... I tried, had the support of his daughter. He was just not interested. Eric Drexler and I both failed to get Robert Heinlein signed up (his wife was bitterly opposed). Timothy Leary was signed up but was not suspended. I can think of only one "luminary" suspended in recent years. Keith From rocket at earthlight.com Thu Mar 5 16:18:50 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 11:18:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead Message-ID: Me too!! (re: cryonics) I had the honor of discussing my research with Freeman Dyson when I was a postdoc working on the origins of prebiotic life, back in the late 90s. We discussed his book, "Origins of Life", a small gem. It was exciting to hear him talk about his ideas on the origins of life, and his enthsuasm and humor were infectious. I met with him only a few times, but his ideas permeated my thoughts on my project. He will be missed. --Regina > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 18:46:21 +0800 > From: JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead > Message-ID: > < > CAGSKFy30d4oaLQRJDqKMyzn7h9bt6t-geYBpr5O375Ha8VZP5w at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > I wish he had been signed up for cryonics. Oh, well... > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 5:49 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Freeman Dyson has died at the age of 96. He didn't just dream up the > Dyson > > Sphere he was a great physicist and wrote a number of wonderful books. > > > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20200305/9585ebff/attachment-0001.htm > > > ------------------------------ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 5 16:30:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:30:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:16 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Keith Henson Subject: Re: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL wrote: >> I wish he had been signed up for cryonics. Oh, well... I tried, had the support of his daughter. He was just not interested. Eric Drexler and I both failed to get Robert Heinlein signed up (his wife was bitterly opposed). Timothy Leary was signed up but was not suspended. I can think of only one "luminary" suspended in recent years. Keith _______________________________________________ WOWsers! I am only two degrees removed from Heinlein, Leary and Dyson, just from being friends with you, Keith! Ja, too bad more of these guys don't go in for cryonics. Keith I will always have fond memories of those parties you used to host at your house with all those big-timer SciFi writers, woooohooo. This is cool, I am so in awe of myself. spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 5 16:37:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:37:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004401d5f30c$4f0a7460$ed1f5d20$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead Me too!! (re: cryonics) >?I had the honor of discussing my research with Freeman Dyson when I was a postdoc working on the origins of prebiotic life, back in the late 90s. We discussed his book, "Origins of Life", a small gem. It was exciting to hear him talk about his ideas on the origins of life, and his enthsuasm and humor were infectious. I met with him only a few times, but his ideas permeated my thoughts on my project. He will be missed. --Regina Regina! We haven?t heard from you in years! Where have you been? Tell us everything that happened please Doctor. Urban legend has it that Isaac Asimov was asked about his intentions on cryonics. His reply was that there was no need, since he had already uploaded himself into his books. After that, I started uploading myself into ExI. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 17:19:01 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 10:19:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Five Major Central Banks Unite to Explore Launching Their Own Digital Currencies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice Article, thanks for sharing. On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 7:31 AM JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "While central banks *have* taken cryptocurrencies more and more > seriously over the years, they also remain the ultimate authorities any > rising new form of money must reckon with before knocking down the system. > If anything replaces fiat currencies (in stable economies, at least), it?d > likely need central bank support or even be issued by a central bank." > > "To that end, the Bank of England, Bank of Japan, European Central Bank, > Bank of Canada, and Sveriges Riksbank (Sweden?s central bank) along with > the Bank of International Settlements recently announced that they?ve > banded together > > to research central bank digital currencies." > > "The new group?co-chaired by Beno?t C?ur?, head of the Bank of > International Settlements (BIS) Innovation Hub, and Jon Cunliffe, deputy > governor of the Bank of England and chair of the Committee on Payments and > Market Infrastructures at the BIS?will openly share their findings and > experiences. They?ll look into emerging technologies, use cases, and > digital currency design options, including how such currencies would work > across national borders." > > "The group?s formation isn?t a commitment to launch a central bank digital > currency, but the coalition shows how far the idea has come and how much > weight it has with central banks. Indeed, a survey conducted by the BIS a > year ago found some 70 percent of central banks [PDF] > had central bank digital > currency projects in the works or underway." > > > https://singularityhub.com/2020/01/23/five-of-the-worlds-biggest-central-banks-unite-to-research-digital-currencies/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Mar 5 17:27:28 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 09:27:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found Message-ID: <20200305092728.Horde.6oUsryKSsYUVISn_32hVSxo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Brent Allsop: > Hi Stuart, > Thanks for the feedback on my terminology. That really helps. > But, it would help if you could provide more evidence that you understand > why I'm using the terminology I am. > Much of what you are saying is evidence to me you don't yet understand the > model I'm trying to describe and what "qualia blindness" means. The simple fact that you are unsure whether I understand you or not indicates that you yourself are qualia blind. Moreover, the fact that your model is itself an abstraction indicates that your model is qualia blind. The sad truth is that your terminology and model have no physical qualities at all. They are just pictures and words composed of Shannon information i.e. literal bits on a bitmap projected on my screen and therefore qualia blind no matter how sublime and wondrous they may be in your own head. > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 9:28 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> "Qualia blindness" sounds too pejorative to be useful as a term of >> art. You should stop using it especially since you tend to apply it to >> people who disagree with you and you have so much trouble explaining >> what it means. Perhaps "qualia denial" or "qualia denier" would be a >> better and more accurate term, since even Daniel Dennett experiences >> qualia, even though he doesn't believe them to be important. >> > > Saying this kind of stuff is strong evidence that you still don't > understand the model I'm trying to describe. Maybe it is because your description contradicts itself. Your description is merely abstract and has none of the physical qualities that it extols. Robots 1 & 2 claim that they experience physical qualities when seeing a strawberry, but a robot could be programmed to say that using a simple lookup table, regardless of it being true or not. Since there is no way for robots 1 and 2 to use abstract words and rules of grammar to prove that they see qualia, they are ultimately no different than robot 3 who simply admits that his knowledge is abstract. Especially since robot 3 might be lying too because he is afraid somebody might try to "fix" him if he displays signs of consciousness. Therefore there is no way for you to communicate ANY model that is not qualia blind since communication requires abstraction and information and therefore qualia blind. > "Qualia Blindness" is similar to the "pejorative" term "Naive Realism". > That fact that it is "pejorative" doesn't really matter compared to the > facts it is describing. In fact, some people think the fact that "Naive > Realism" is factually "Naive" is a good thing > . I would bet that John > would agree that his view is 'qualia blind' and that he is perfectly OK > with using one word for all things 'red' as he has indicated multiple > times. And of course, saying you should ignore qualia, as Dennett does, is > the very definition of being qualia blind. Dennett openly admits that. How does the number of words one uses to to describe "all things red" matter in the slightest? Words are words. That your model uses a thousand of words to try to explain redness does not make your model any less qualia blind than the single word "red". > Qualia blindness is as qualia blindness does. If you only have one word, > for all things red, that is, by definition, qualia blindness. It is simply > a fact that having one word for all things 'red' tells you nothing of the > actual physical qualities of any of the many things it is a label for. > Having a model (and the language of such) of the physical world that > ignores, or does not include qualia, is, by definition, qualia blind. If > you don't like the term "qualia blind" then every time I use it please > substitute it with: "Have amy model of physical reality that does not > include objectively observable qualia." Or anyone that claims we should > "quine qualia" and so on. Again your model is composed of words and pictures all of which are mere abstract Shannon information and and therefore devoid of objectively observable qualia. Your model is just as qualia blind as all the models that it presumes to criticize on that account. >> Not at all. Inverted perception in no way proves that qualia are not >> "phantasms of the mind" to use Newton's terminology. In fact, the >> rewiring I described between the retina and the visual cortex is >> specifically in reference to the signalling pathway model. >> > > More evidence you are not understanding what I'm trying to say. If you put > a red green signal inverter in the optic nerve > , > The light and the "L-cone" will be firing 'red', but the knowledge will not > have a redness quality, it will have a greeness quality. This fact > necessarily proves that neither the L-cone, nore the 'red' light, (as you > are claiming) have anything to do with the physical quality of knowledge > (since it isn't redness, it is greeness when the inverter is in place). Criss-crossing the neural pathways is the only technologically feasible way that an inline red-green inverter could work. I doubt that the signal transduced from an L-cone is all that different from the signal transduced from an M-cone except with regard to the specific pathway it takes from the retina to the visual cortex. Sending one cone's signal down the other cone's pathway will trigger greenness in response to red. So how does your red-green signal inverter work? Magic? > I'm in a different camp > . Functionalist > are the only ones with a "hard problem" which they have no idea how to > address, let alone having any way of verifying what they think must be. > While my prediction is that they will first falsify "glutamate" as being > the same as "redness" and then experimentalists will substitute glutamate > with something else physical. I am not so certain about the "substrate independence" of specific qualia. While there is no reason why a simulated brain could not produce qualia, there is also no checksum to verify the fidelity of any simulated qualia. I suppose that any particular quale could be reproduced in many different substrates but would be the highest fidelity in its native substrate. Kind of like using a virtual machine to run Windows on a Mac. It works but not quite as well as a native installation on a PC. So would that be partial substrate independence? > Your "signalling pathway model" is a great > model. It's about the only prediction of what qualia are that nobody has > created a camp for yet. Experimental results could certainly verify it is > a "readiness pathway" that we experience as redness right? Would you be > willing to help us create a "signalling pathway model" camp, so > experimentalists have another way to test for this qualia possibility? Thanks. As I have mentioned before, it is part of a larger theory on the emergent properties of synergistic systems. I suppose I could write something up specifically in reference to qualia. > But > if experimentalists found a particular "pathway" that always resulted in > subjective redness, then this same "pathway" would always produce the same > redness no matter what brain it was in, right? Not necessarily. Redness is likely to be learned knowledge and the specific neurons and synapses involved would have been stochastically trained during development. So I would expect variation between different subjects as to the specific neurons involved but relative consistency within any given subject over repeated trials suing the same color. >> Reframing the "the hard mind-body problem" as the "color problem" does >> not help in the slightest because the "color problem" has remained >> unsolved for over 300 years and was first voiced by Isaac Newton in >> the 17th century. > > Exactly, and the only reason is, is because everyone has been, to date, > qualia blind. Non of the sub camps of RQT can be falsified as long as all > experimentalists are qualia blind. To me, most of the theories and all the > religious stuff, are what I think of as 'crap in the gap'. (similar to the > idea of the God of the Gaps in evolutionary theory) As long as we can't > falsify things, people can believe any crap they want to believe. Qualia > blind people "correct" for any physical differences observed in the brain, > labeling it all with the single word 'red'. Again, doing this makes one > blind to any different physical qualities they may be detecting. As long > as experimentalists continue to do this, they can't falsify any of the sub > camps to RQT. Qualia blindness is likely an inescapable state of affairs. Simply creating a model that claims the existence of physical qualities does not magically grant one the ability to identify or manipulate them nor cause them to exist. Qualia are much like the Tao in that the redness that can be spoken of, or described in a model, is not the true redness. Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 17:30:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 12:30:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The COVID-19 death rate is 3.4% Message-ID: The World Health Organization just said the death rate for the 2019 coronavirus is 3.4%, that's about 34 times higher than the death rate for seasonal flu. The earlier estimate was 2% but as we learn more it's gone up. The head of the W.H.O. Adhanom Ghebreyesus said: ?Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died. By comparison, seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected.? Coronavirus (COVID-19) Mortality Rate In a interview with Sean Hannity on State TV that well known expert on infectious viral diseases Donald Trump said "Well, I think the 3.4 percent is really a false number". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 17:59:59 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 09:59:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 8:30 AM wrote: > snip > WOWsers! I am only two degrees removed from Heinlein, Leary and Dyson, just > from being friends with you, Keith! Big deal, they are all dead. > Ja, too bad more of these guys don't go in for cryonics. Well, think about how few from this list are signed up. Then there are those like Hugh Daniels who always intended to sign up, but didn't and died unexpectedly. > Keith I will always have fond memories of those parties you used to host at > your house with all those big-timer SciFi writers, woooohooo. The regular PENSFA parties seldom had an author. What you might be thinking of is the time BayCon asked me to host an offsite party for Spider Robinson when he was their Guest of Honor. Poul Anderson turned up for that party. I think Leslie Fish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Fish) was there Wish I had kept a list of who came. At the time my next-door neighbor was a fairly mellow FBI agent. The next day he commented on the smoke drifting out of my backyard. This was before even medical use was allowed. > This is cool, I am so in awe of myself. Sheesh. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 18:32:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 12:32:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I can top that, Spike: I shook hands with George H and Barbara Bush - one degree away from thousands of very famous people. Save your awe for me! bill w On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 10:36 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Keith Henson via extropy-chat > Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:16 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: Keith Henson > Subject: Re: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead > > JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL wrote: > > >> I wish he had been signed up for cryonics. Oh, well... > > I tried, had the support of his daughter. He was just not interested. > > Eric Drexler and I both failed to get Robert Heinlein signed up (his wife > was bitterly opposed). Timothy Leary was signed up but was not suspended. > I can think of only one "luminary" suspended in recent years. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > > > > WOWsers! I am only two degrees removed from Heinlein, Leary and Dyson, > just > from being friends with you, Keith! > > Ja, too bad more of these guys don't go in for cryonics. > > Keith I will always have fond memories of those parties you used to host at > your house with all those big-timer SciFi writers, woooohooo. > > This is cool, I am so in awe of myself. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 5 19:16:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 11:16:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b101d5f322$84beebc0$8e3cc340$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead I can top that, Spike: I shook hands with George H and Barbara Bush - one degree away from thousands of very famous people. Save your awe for me! bill w Ha! That?s nothing BillW! I am friends with the guy who is friends with Freeman Dyson and Robert Heinlein! Save your awe for ME! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 19:47:10 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 13:47:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The COVID-19 death rate is 3.4% In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02D1F33B-30F4-40A2-8254-47D2CCE5A73A@gmail.com> I?m not panicking YET, but in my metro area they accidentally let out a lady who tested positive. She visited a grocery store 500m for me on the busiest day of business we have seen in the last 6 months. RIP. SR Ballard > On Mar 5, 2020, at 11:30 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > The World Health Organization just said the death rate for the 2019 coronavirus is 3.4%, that's about 34 times higher than the death rate for seasonal flu. The earlier estimate was 2% but as we learn more it's gone up. The head of the W.H.O. Adhanom Ghebreyesus said: > > ?Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died. By comparison, seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected.? > > Coronavirus (COVID-19) Mortality Rate > > In a interview with Sean Hannity on State TV that well known expert on infectious viral diseases Donald Trump said "Well, I think the 3.4 percent is really a false number". > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 19:52:02 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 14:52:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The COVID-19 death rate is 3.4% In-Reply-To: <02D1F33B-30F4-40A2-8254-47D2CCE5A73A@gmail.com> References: <02D1F33B-30F4-40A2-8254-47D2CCE5A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not panicking yet either, but I work in Manhattan, NYC and take the train in 3 days a week from CT (on the plus side, I avoid the subway, but it's still public transportation). The outbreak in Westchester county NY with no known source has me concerned: https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/03/05/2-more-coronavirus-cases-confirmed-in-nyc/ On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 2:48 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I?m not panicking YET, but in my metro area they accidentally let out a > lady who tested positive. She visited a grocery store 500m for me on the > busiest day of business we have seen in the last 6 months. RIP. > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 5, 2020, at 11:30 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The World Health Organization just said the death rate for the 2019 > coronavirus is 3.4%, that's about 34 times higher than the death rate for > seasonal flu. The earlier estimate was 2% but as we learn more it's gone > up. The head of the W.H.O. Adhanom Ghebreyesus said: > > ?Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died. By comparison, > seasonal flu generally kills far fewer than 1% of those infected.? > > Coronavirus (COVID-19) Mortality Rate > > > In a interview with Sean Hannity on State TV that well known expert on > infectious viral diseases Donald Trump said "Well, I think the 3.4 percent > is really a false number". > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 20:09:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 15:09:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:35 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I can top that, Spike: I shook hands with George H and Barbara Bush > The best I can do is Edward Teller and Stanislaw Ulam, co-inventors of the H-bomb. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 20:39:43 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 12:39:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: <00b101d5f322$84beebc0$8e3cc340$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> <00b101d5f322$84beebc0$8e3cc340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > Ha! That?s nothing BillW! I am friends with the guy who is friends with > Freeman Dyson and Robert Heinlein! Save your awe for ME! > > > > spike > Let me top that, if I may. I am friends with Spike Jones. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 5 21:31:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 13:31:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010201d5f335$6c589aa0$4509cfe0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 12:09 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:35 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > I can top that, Spike: I shook hands with George H and Barbara Bush The best I can do is Edward Teller and Stanislaw Ulam, co-inventors of the H-bomb. John K Clark John, we had Edward Teller come down to Lockheed Palo Alto Research in about 1997 to give us a lecture. It was one of the few times we had a packed house for one of the physics seminars there. He was already almost 90, but I can assure you, he was as sharp as ever. That guy really surprised me: he was funny as hell. He gave us a lecture he called ?Tales from the Dark Side of Physic.? Unlike most of the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project, Teller came across as jovial, lighthearted, not a trace of introspection that any of us could see, completely different from what I expected. This what I remember from his lecture. He and his group did some calculations which convinced them there was a largest possible nuclear fission bomb. After that, the efficiency dropped off so quickly it wasn?t practical. As I recall he said they thought the largest possible nuclear weapon would be about a gigaton. That might not be big enough to scare Russia into behaving themselves. Russia is a big country, you know. They added in the nuclear fusion element and discovered that there was no clear upper limit on fusion weapons. He and his group did the calculations for a compression shock wave sufficient to ensure killing every human on earth (not much point in going higher than that, ja?) They discovered that it would be theoretically possible to make such a device, depending on your definition of the term ?theoretically.? There was no reason to stay awake worrying if some crazy dictator would do it. Since it was going to kill everyone on the planet, there was no need to haul it elsewhere. You could build it in your own backyard, not bother with a rocket or a guidance system. When he sprung that one on us, he did this kind of odd characteristic laugh, which I now realize Peter Sellers might have been channeling for his Dr. Strangelove character. It was a fun lecture. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 5 21:38:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 13:38:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f30b$594f0b80$0bed2280$@rainier66.com> <00b101d5f322$84beebc0$8e3cc340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011101d5f336$70da83d0$528f8b70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead Ha! That?s nothing BillW! I am friends with the guy who is friends with Freeman Dyson and Robert Heinlein! Save your awe for ME! spike Let me top that, if I may. I am friends with Spike Jones. No way! Seriously! I practically worship the guy. His Cocktails for Two and Der Fuhrer?s Face crack me up to this day! Check out the musicianship and skill level it would take to do something like this. Getting this many people working together at this skill level would be damn hard to replicate even today, with a clear pattern: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=spike+jones+cocktails+for+two &t=chromentp&atb=v135-1&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DA0dw2UKRYSA spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Mar 5 21:51:38 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 21:51:38 +0000 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47ce14a8-accd-01ca-81c1-219a7db06e62@zaiboc.net> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 4:08 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > wrote: > I'm equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be > atheists, with with people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen > to be believers. > > If you insist on adding "because of their religion" to the second > part, then I will insist on adding "because of their atheism" to the > first part, because I really don't see any difference between these > two totally symmetric cases. Then you are refusing to see it. The difference is blindingly obvlous. Religions have rules of behaviour, whole tomes explaining what kind of behaviour, dress, food, sexual practices, rituals, etc., are required or allowed (and which ones are 'sinful' and to be discouraged, in oneself and in others), and often horrifically graphic descriptions of what punishments await those who break the rules. Atheism has none of that. Religions give people /reasons/ for being horrible to others. Atheism doesn't. Nobody is violent, coercive, etc., /because/ they are atheists, because there is a complete absence of those rules of behaviour, no prescriptions, no concept of 'sin' etc. How can you possibly regard them as symmetric cases? They're as asymmetric as you can get! Who will regard gay people as misguided, sinful and in need of correction, if not outright punishment? Who will have reasons to do that? Where do those reasons come from? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu Mar 5 23:21:18 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 18:21:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead In-Reply-To: <004401d5f30c$4f0a7460$ed1f5d20$@rainier66.com> References: <004401d5f30c$4f0a7460$ed1f5d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hi Spike, and all~ Thanks - I lurk here rather often but only emerge from time to time :) Here is a brief version of my interactions with Dyson. It was a very interesting time in my scientific journey, I was a grad student doing research in Manfred Eigen's group on answering the question: how was the fidelity of biological information preserved? Eigen focused on delineating the mechanics of quasi-species generation, and limits of the error catastrophe. My personal interest was, how did organized biological information in the form of DNA/RNA arise in the first place, in a prebiotic arena? [Aside: I am of late interested in how inforrmation organizes in simple networks of neurons -- you can see the progression!] Anyhow, Prof Eigen and a few others knew Freeman Dyson, he would come by the group for discussions on the origins of life and eat with us at the canteen. After we met and he learned I was a grad student, he gave me his book, and we discussed the pros and cons of metabolisim vs.RNA first theories. It was great, because the puzzle in my mind was, it's all very nice and well that RNA carries information and all that, but how likely was it that, prebiotically, RNA was around in high enough concentrations (yes, there are lots of thermodynamically feasible proposals for syntheses of prebiotic RNA, but yields are painful and the molecule hydrolyzes)? Meanwhile, there are 10 amino acids which were prebiotically available and capable of doing chemistry, acting as proto-enzymes, and binding to lipid molecules, possibly even assisting with menbrane formation. Prebiotic life could easilty have organized around the chemistry of these amino acids and lipids, with RNA and its pal DNA coming around to hang out later. So which was first, as he asked - metabolisim or replication? Dyson was the scientist who introduced me to this still-unanswered question, and those conversations were rich and fascinating. He had a compelling energy around him. He was patient, knowlegable, encouraging, sparkling, and engaging. What a pleasure. and hoinor to be able to boince ideas around with him when I was such a fuzzy young scientist. -Regina On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 11:37 AM wrote: > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Re Rose via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Freeman Dyson is dead > > > > Me too!! (re: cryonics) > > > > >?I had the honor of discussing my research with Freeman Dyson when I was > a postdoc working on the origins of prebiotic life, back in the late 90s. > We discussed his book, "Origins of Life", a small gem. It was exciting to > hear him talk about his ideas on the origins of life, and his enthsuasm and > humor were infectious. I met with him only a few times, but his ideas > permeated my thoughts on my project. He will be missed. > > > > --Regina > > > > > > > > > > Regina! We haven?t heard from you in years! Where have you been? > > > > Tell us everything that happened please Doctor. > > > > Urban legend has it that Isaac Asimov was asked about his intentions on > cryonics. His reply was that there was no need, since he had already > uploaded himself into his books. > > > > After that, I started uploading myself into ExI. > > > > spike > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 08:17:45 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 09:17:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: <47ce14a8-accd-01ca-81c1-219a7db06e62@zaiboc.net> References: <47ce14a8-accd-01ca-81c1-219a7db06e62@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: "Atheism has none of that. Religions give people reasons for being horrible to others. Atheism doesn't." Bullshit. In atheist regimes, people have been beaten, sent to gulags, and murdered, for peaceful behaviors like attending an underground church or wearing a cross. This is a FACT. Let's agree to disagree. On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 10:52 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 4:08 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > I'm equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be > atheists, with with people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen > to be believers. > > If you insist on adding "because of their religion" to the second > part, then I will insist on adding "because of their atheism" to the > first part, because I really don't see any difference between these > two totally symmetric cases. > > > Then you are refusing to see it. The difference is blindingly obvlous. Religions have rules of behaviour, whole tomes explaining what kind of behaviour, dress, food, sexual practices, rituals, etc., are required or allowed (and which ones are 'sinful' and to be discouraged, in oneself and in others), and often horrifically graphic descriptions of what punishments await those who break the rules. > > Atheism has none of that. Religions give people reasons for being horrible to others. Atheism doesn't. > Nobody is violent, coercive, etc., because they are atheists, because there is a complete absence of those rules of behaviour, no prescriptions, no concept of 'sin' etc. > > How can you possibly regard them as symmetric cases? They're as asymmetric as you can get! > > Who will regard gay people as misguided, sinful and in need of correction, if not outright punishment? > Who will have reasons to do that? Where do those reasons come from? > > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 09:11:41 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 10:11:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat Message-ID: Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat Peter Thiel notes that this book by Ross Douthat "sets the stakes for the most urgent public debate of the 2020s: How do we get back to the future?" https://turingchurch.net/space-and-religion-are-the-likeliest-pathways-out-of-decadence-ross-douthat-c752ecad6e63 From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 13:34:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 07:34:28 -0600 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: <47ce14a8-accd-01ca-81c1-219a7db06e62@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I repeat - the actions of atheist governments have nothing to do with their lack of belief in a god. The actions are political in nature. Plenty of religious people get left alone in China, in Russia. In China they are trying to beat the rebellions out of them, not their religion. In Russia they even let the people change the name from Leningrad back to St. Petersburg. bill w On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 2:20 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Atheism has none of that. Religions give people reasons for being > horrible to others. Atheism doesn't." > > Bullshit. In atheist regimes, people have been beaten, sent to gulags, > and murdered, for peaceful behaviors like attending an underground > church or wearing a cross. This is a FACT. > > Let's agree to disagree. > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 10:52 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 4:08 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > I'm equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be > > atheists, with with people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen > > to be believers. > > > > If you insist on adding "because of their religion" to the second > > part, then I will insist on adding "because of their atheism" to the > > first part, because I really don't see any difference between these > > two totally symmetric cases. > > > > > > Then you are refusing to see it. The difference is blindingly obvlous. > Religions have rules of behaviour, whole tomes explaining what kind of > behaviour, dress, food, sexual practices, rituals, etc., are required or > allowed (and which ones are 'sinful' and to be discouraged, in oneself and > in others), and often horrifically graphic descriptions of what punishments > await those who break the rules. > > > > Atheism has none of that. Religions give people reasons for being > horrible to others. Atheism doesn't. > > Nobody is violent, coercive, etc., because they are atheists, because > there is a complete absence of those rules of behaviour, no prescriptions, > no concept of 'sin' etc. > > > > How can you possibly regard them as symmetric cases? They're as > asymmetric as you can get! > > > > Who will regard gay people as misguided, sinful and in need of > correction, if not outright punishment? > > Who will have reasons to do that? Where do those reasons come from? > > > > > > -- > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 14:41:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 09:41:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Fermi Paradox Message-ID: Galactic clusters are the largest structures in the universe held together by gravity and the Ophiuchus Supercluster contains 4021 known galaxies, it's likely none of them contain life, much less intelligent life. Telescopes have seen evidence that the largest galaxy in the center of the cluster underwent a gargantuan explosion at least 240 million years earlier, it's 390 million light years away so the explosion happened at least 630 million years ago. It's thought that 270 million solar masses of gas and dust was sucked into the black hole at the center of the galaxy producing something equivalent to a supernova going off every month for a 100 million years. Something like that would probably sterilize not only the galaxy but the entire cluster. And Ophiuchus is relatively nearby so it's almost certain there are more distant clusters that suffered even larger explosions. It looks like the Milky Way has just been lucky. DISCOVERY OF A GIANT RADIO FOSSIL IN THE OPHIUCHUS GALAXY CLUSTER John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 15:53:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 10:53:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 4:14 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross > Douthat* This list is not nearly as libertarian as it once was but even so I'm not sure Ross Douthat is the best authority to bolster your case around here. When Playboy founder Hugh Hefner died at the age of 91 Ross Douthat said he was "a father of smut addictions and eating disorders, abortions and divorce and syphilis" and a "grinning pimp of the sexual revolution" and "a leering grotesque" and "a lecherous, low-brow Peter Pan". It doesn't seem that Mr. Douthat liked Hugh Hefner very much, but I've got to say he makes decadence sound a lot more fun than the puritanism he advocates. He wants abortion banned but strangely he also thinks birth control should be illegal, and he thinks gay marriage should be illegal too. Oh I almost forgot, he wants the government to ban all pornography. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 16:32:14 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 17:32:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: <47ce14a8-accd-01ca-81c1-219a7db06e62@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Right, the actions of atheist governments are political in nature. AND the actions of religious governments are also political in nature. In both case the problems are power and cruelty. Nothing to do with religious or philosophical convictions. I am not saying that one is good and the other is bad. I am saying that both are bad, but I insist on the symmetry. On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 2:36 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I repeat - the actions of atheist governments have nothing to do with > their lack of belief in a god. The actions are political in nature. > Plenty of religious people get left alone in China, in Russia. In China > they are trying to beat the rebellions out of them, not their religion. In > Russia they even let the people change the name from Leningrad back to St. > Petersburg. > > bill w > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 2:20 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> "Atheism has none of that. Religions give people reasons for being >> horrible to others. Atheism doesn't." >> >> Bullshit. In atheist regimes, people have been beaten, sent to gulags, >> and murdered, for peaceful behaviors like attending an underground >> church or wearing a cross. This is a FACT. >> >> Let's agree to disagree. >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 10:52 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 4:08 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> > I'm equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be >> > atheists, with with people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen >> > to be believers. >> > >> > If you insist on adding "because of their religion" to the second >> > part, then I will insist on adding "because of their atheism" to the >> > first part, because I really don't see any difference between these >> > two totally symmetric cases. >> > >> > >> > Then you are refusing to see it. The difference is blindingly obvlous. >> Religions have rules of behaviour, whole tomes explaining what kind of >> behaviour, dress, food, sexual practices, rituals, etc., are required or >> allowed (and which ones are 'sinful' and to be discouraged, in oneself and >> in others), and often horrifically graphic descriptions of what punishments >> await those who break the rules. >> > >> > Atheism has none of that. Religions give people reasons for being >> horrible to others. Atheism doesn't. >> > Nobody is violent, coercive, etc., because they are atheists, because >> there is a complete absence of those rules of behaviour, no prescriptions, >> no concept of 'sin' etc. >> > >> > How can you possibly regard them as symmetric cases? They're as >> asymmetric as you can get! >> > >> > Who will regard gay people as misguided, sinful and in need of >> correction, if not outright punishment? >> > Who will have reasons to do that? Where do those reasons come from? >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Ben Zaiboc >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 16:34:12 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 17:34:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I disagree with Douthat on the points that you mention. But I don't have to agree on everything before agreeing on something. In THIS case, I think he has good points and solid arguments. On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 4:55 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 4:14 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> *Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross >> Douthat* > > > This list is not nearly as libertarian as it once was but even so I'm not > sure Ross Douthat is the best authority to bolster your case around here. > When Playboy founder Hugh Hefner died at the age of 91 Ross Douthat said he > was "a father of smut addictions and eating disorders, abortions and > divorce and syphilis" and a "grinning pimp of the sexual revolution" and "a > leering grotesque" and "a lecherous, low-brow Peter Pan". It doesn't seem > that Mr. Douthat liked Hugh Hefner very much, but I've got to say he makes > decadence sound a lot more fun than the puritanism he advocates. He wants > abortion banned but strangely he also thinks birth control should be > illegal, and he thinks gay marriage should be illegal too. Oh I almost > forgot, he wants the government to ban all pornography. > > John K Clark > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 6 16:38:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 08:38:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] funniest 6 order of magnitude error evah Message-ID: <009601d5f3d5$aa1febe0$fe5fc3a0$@rainier66.com> I am astonished this one got past the cameramen. I don?t expect much of news anchors and politicians, but the camera guys shoulda spotted it in time: https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1235913628873904129 ?heeeeeeeeeheheheheheheeeeeeee? In their defense, the word million and trillion rhyme. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 16:46:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 10:46:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: <47ce14a8-accd-01ca-81c1-219a7db06e62@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I just don't think that governments of whatever nature are comparable to small radical groups, like Hezbollah. If there are these out there that are fundamentally atheist I would like to know about them. bill w On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Right, the actions of atheist governments are political in nature. AND the > actions of religious governments are also political in nature. In both case > the problems are power and cruelty. Nothing to do with religious or > philosophical convictions. I am not saying that one is good and the other > is bad. I am saying that both are bad, but I insist on the symmetry. > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 2:36 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I repeat - the actions of atheist governments have nothing to do with >> their lack of belief in a god. The actions are political in nature. >> Plenty of religious people get left alone in China, in Russia. In China >> they are trying to beat the rebellions out of them, not their religion. In >> Russia they even let the people change the name from Leningrad back to St. >> Petersburg. >> >> bill w >> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 2:20 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> "Atheism has none of that. Religions give people reasons for being >>> horrible to others. Atheism doesn't." >>> >>> Bullshit. In atheist regimes, people have been beaten, sent to gulags, >>> and murdered, for peaceful behaviors like attending an underground >>> church or wearing a cross. This is a FACT. >>> >>> Let's agree to disagree. >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 10:52 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 4:08 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > I'm equating people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen to be >>> > atheists, with with people who are violent, coercive, etc., and happen >>> > to be believers. >>> > >>> > If you insist on adding "because of their religion" to the second >>> > part, then I will insist on adding "because of their atheism" to the >>> > first part, because I really don't see any difference between these >>> > two totally symmetric cases. >>> > >>> > >>> > Then you are refusing to see it. The difference is blindingly obvlous. >>> Religions have rules of behaviour, whole tomes explaining what kind of >>> behaviour, dress, food, sexual practices, rituals, etc., are required or >>> allowed (and which ones are 'sinful' and to be discouraged, in oneself and >>> in others), and often horrifically graphic descriptions of what punishments >>> await those who break the rules. >>> > >>> > Atheism has none of that. Religions give people reasons for being >>> horrible to others. Atheism doesn't. >>> > Nobody is violent, coercive, etc., because they are atheists, because >>> there is a complete absence of those rules of behaviour, no prescriptions, >>> no concept of 'sin' etc. >>> > >>> > How can you possibly regard them as symmetric cases? They're as >>> asymmetric as you can get! >>> > >>> > Who will regard gay people as misguided, sinful and in need of >>> correction, if not outright punishment? >>> > Who will have reasons to do that? Where do those reasons come from? >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Ben Zaiboc >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > extropy-chat mailing list >>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 17:46:44 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 09:46:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2020, at 1:20 AM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat > > Peter Thiel notes that this book by Ross Douthat "sets the stakes for > the most urgent public debate of the 2020s: How do we get back to the > future?" > > https://turingchurch.net/space-and-religion-are-the-likeliest-pathways-out-of-decadence-ross-douthat-c752ecad6e63 Have you read this: https://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/praise-decadence Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Mar 6 17:47:36 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 17:47:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ac040b8-39b9-7718-ddea-beb80a95aa60@zaiboc.net> On 06/03/2020 16:32, Giulio Prisco wrote: > "Atheism has none of that. Religions give people reasons for being > horrible to others. Atheism doesn't." > > Bullshit. In atheist regimes, people have been beaten, sent to gulags, > and murdered, for peaceful behaviors like attending an underground > church or wearing a cross. This is a FACT. I'm not disagreeing with that fact. But my point is not bullshit. You're ignoring what I'm saying and going after a straw man. If you don't want to think about this, though, that's up to you. You've already indicated that you don't want to use rational thought here, and want to use a faith-based mindset instead. It's a shame, but it's your decision. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Mar 6 17:56:51 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 17:56:51 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86af3407-01c8-ed7d-1fdf-585ad5a794be@zaiboc.net> On 06/03/2020 16:32, John K Clark wrote: > Galactic clusters are the largest structures in the universe held > together by gravity and the Ophiuchus Supercluster contains 4021 known > galaxies, it's likely none of them contain life, much less intelligent > life. Telescopes have seen evidence that the largest galaxy in the > center of the cluster underwent a gargantuan explosion at least 240 > million years earlier, it's 390 million light years away so the > explosion happened at least 630 million years ago. It's thought that > 270 million solar masses of gas and dust was sucked into the black > hole at the center of the galaxy producing something equivalent to a > supernova going off every month for a 100 million years. Something > like that would probably sterilize not only the galaxy but the entire > cluster. And Ophiuchus is relatively nearby so it's almost certain > there are more distant clusters that suffered even larger explosions. > It looks like the Milky Way has just been lucky. > > DISCOVERY OF A GIANT RADIO FOSSIL IN THE OPHIUCHUS GALAXY CLUSTER > > > John K Clark I'm wondering what are the chances that something similar will happen in our neighbourhood sometime in the future? If it does, what could our future selves do to survive it? There's a story by Greg Egan that has a similar premise. It's not encouraging. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 18:33:57 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 10:33:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: <86af3407-01c8-ed7d-1fdf-585ad5a794be@zaiboc.net> References: <86af3407-01c8-ed7d-1fdf-585ad5a794be@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 6, 2020, 10:05 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 06/03/2020 16:32, John K Clark wrote: > > Galactic clusters are the largest structures in the universe held together > by gravity and the Ophiuchus Supercluster contains 4021 known galaxies, > it's likely none of them contain life, much less intelligent life. > Telescopes have seen evidence that the largest galaxy in the center of the > cluster underwent a gargantuan explosion at least 240 million years > earlier, it's 390 million light years away so the explosion happened at > least 630 million years ago. It's thought that 270 million solar masses of > gas and dust was sucked into the black hole at the center of the galaxy > producing something equivalent to a supernova going off every month for a > 100 million years. Something like that would probably sterilize not only > the galaxy but the entire cluster. And Ophiuchus is relatively nearby so > it's almost certain there are more distant clusters that suffered even > larger explosions. It looks like the Milky Way has just been lucky. > > DISCOVERY OF A GIANT RADIO FOSSIL IN THE OPHIUCHUS GALAXY CLUSTER > > > John K Clark > > > I'm wondering what are the chances that something similar will happen in > our neighbourhood sometime in the future? > > If it does, what could our future selves do to survive it? > > There's a story by Greg Egan that has a similar premise. It's not > encouraging. > I am reminded of stories where the last humans in a solar system took their city mobile, sticking to the slim (and moving) spot on the planet that was sufficiently shielded and life-compatible, with crews working the terrain ahead so the city could stay on the march. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 18:41:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 13:41:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] funniest 6 order of magnitude error evah In-Reply-To: <009601d5f3d5$aa1febe0$fe5fc3a0$@rainier66.com> References: <009601d5f3d5$aa1febe0$fe5fc3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I am astonished this one got past the cameramen. I don?t expect much > of news anchors and politicians, but the camera guys shoulda spotted it in > time: > > > > https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1235913628873904129 > > > > ?heeeeeeeeeheheheheheheeeeeeee? > > In their defense, the word million and trillion rhyme. > Wow, when I started watching I assumed the news anchor and the guest were making fun of the tweet, but no, they thought it was making a good point! Anybody can have a bad brain fart, OK maybe not quite that bad but pretty bad, however there were 2 of them and neither noticed how dumb it was, and they weren't seeing it for the first time. Maybe the camera guys did spot the error but thought it would be more fun to let them go ahead and make fools of themselves. Did they ever make a retraction? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 6 19:10:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:10:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] funniest 6 order of magnitude error evah In-Reply-To: References: <009601d5f3d5$aa1febe0$fe5fc3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010301d5f3ea$ed542830$c7fc7890$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] funniest 6 order of magnitude error evah On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > I am astonished this one got past the cameramen. I don?t expect much of news anchors and politicians, but the camera guys shoulda spotted it in time: https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1235913628873904129 ?heeeeeeeeeheheheheheheeeeeeee? In their defense, the word million and trillion rhyme. >?Wow, when I started watching I assumed the news anchor and the guest were making fun of the tweet, but no, they thought it was making a good point! Anybody can have a bad brain fart? The level of innumeracy displayed there is rather alarming. These people influence so many voters. I will say this for engineering education: it does tend to give one a feel for order of magnitude. Back in the olden days when we still had slide rules, you had to know the order of magnitude. They missed this by six orders and neither realized the number just didn?t seem right. If anyone thinks America has people who can spend a million dollars for each man, woman and child in the US, and still have money left over, I can see why they have a weird outlook on life. >?Did they ever make a retraction? John K Clark I don?t know. If they did, the retraction didn?t get as much publicity as the goof. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 21:51:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 15:51:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] authoritarianism Message-ID: This is the epistemological system most people are comfortable with. Growing up we are told what to do by parents, teachers, preachers, older kids and so on. Then the kid reaches 18 and gets tossed into college. Where is the motivation to think for one's self? Critical thinking in schools is a good start but I think not a lot is done with it. So the reasons for one's behavior comes down to: Mama said do it. Jesus wants me to do it. If I don't do it God will punish me, if everyone does it, it must be right, and so on. No wonder so many people are just lost in college and jump to every kind of different sets of beliefs. Different authorities. They are not equipped with the mental tools to separate out and judge different systems. They are just not comfortable with being on their own, deciding their own morals. They want some authority as backup. Science does not give them that. "Who told you that was right." "No one. I decided it for myself." Most people do not have the ego strength to say that. There are parents who tend to let their kids decides things for themselves, but do not give them the mental tools to be able to do so, again leaving the kid thrust into the world expected to be independent and is lost. Some find new authorities, the more different from their past ones as possible. Morality is way too important to be left to parents, teachers, preachers and so on, but just where do we want to them to go? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 22:15:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 16:15:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] curcumin Message-ID: In the news: scientists developed a nanoparticle version of this spice (herb?) that increases its bioavailability. I take it for osteoarthritis and it works very well. But the real news is for retaining cognitive functioning and even reversing cognitive damage (rat study). The researchers have shown in animal experiments that nanoparticles containing curcumin not only prevents cognitive deterioration but also reverses the damage. This finding paves the way for clinical development trials for Alzheimer's. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 23:15:52 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 18:15:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Parallel_Worlds_Probably_Exist=2E_Here=E2=80=99s?= =?utf-8?q?_Why?= Message-ID: This video just went online, I thought it was excellent: Parallel Worlds Probably Exist. Here?s Why John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Mar 7 05:40:54 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 21:40:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The COVID-19 death rate is 3.4% In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200306214054.Horde.q0IKNHZLX1tgrf7E8o4CGD8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting SR Ballard: > I?m not panicking YET, but in my metro area they accidentally let > out a lady who tested positive. She visited a grocery store 500m for > me on the busiest day of business we have seen in the last 6 months. > RIP. To quote Douglas Adams, "Don't panic!" Instead, learn: http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/en/article/id/e53946e2-c6c4-41e9-9a9b-fea8db1a8f51 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762130?guestAccessKey=bdcca6fa-a48c-4028-8406-7f3d04a3e932&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=022420 Yes, it is the Chinese CDC but it is still data. Check out table 1 of the first link. If you are under 50 your mortality rate is under 1% unless you have some pretty severe comorbidities. If I was a young whippersnapper, then I would consider catching it deliberately, taking two weeks of sick leave, and playing video games while ordering out. After that, you should retain lifelong immunity. Call it a jungle vaccination. The most at risk are those over 80 who have a CFR of about 15%. If I were over 60, I would avoid crowds and practice not touching my face when out in public until immediately after I had washed them for 20 seconds with soap and water. Carry hand sanitizer and use it often. If you learn how to use and dispose of them correctly, personal protective gear like goggles or safety glasses a respirator or N-95 disposable masks would be helpful. But in a pinch if confronted with the unwashed masses, I would use a clean handkerchief or paper towel or anything else handy to cover my nose and mouth and try to quickly do my business. I hope that helps. Stuart LaForge "Fear is the mind-killer." -Frank Herbert "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." -Franklin D. Roosevelt "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more so that we may fear less."- Marie Curie From avant at sollegro.com Sat Mar 7 06:22:48 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 22:22:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The COVID-19 death rate is 3.4% In-Reply-To: <20200306214054.Horde.q0IKNHZLX1tgrf7E8o4CGD8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200306214054.Horde.q0IKNHZLX1tgrf7E8o4CGD8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <20200306222248.Horde._klwkEN9FfnGHZDit59hHfT@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor nor is this medical advice per-se. This is me telling you what I would do based upon my interpretation of the data. YMMV. Stuart LaForge Quoting Stuart LaForge : > Quoting SR Ballard: > >> I?m not panicking YET, but in my metro area they accidentally let >> out a lady who tested positive. She visited a grocery store 500m >> for me on the busiest day of business we have seen in the last 6 >> months. RIP. > > To quote Douglas Adams, "Don't panic!" > > Instead, learn: > > http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/en/article/id/e53946e2-c6c4-41e9-9a9b-fea8db1a8f51 > > https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762130?guestAccessKey=bdcca6fa-a48c-4028-8406-7f3d04a3e932&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=022420 > > > Yes, it is the Chinese CDC but it is still data. Check out table 1 > of the first link. If you are under 50 your mortality rate is under > 1% unless you have some pretty severe comorbidities. If I was a > young whippersnapper, then I would consider catching it > deliberately, taking two weeks of sick leave, and playing video > games while ordering out. After that, you should retain lifelong > immunity. Call it a jungle vaccination. > > The most at risk are those over 80 who have a CFR of about 15%. If I > were over 60, I would avoid crowds and practice not touching my face > when out in public until immediately after I had washed them for 20 > seconds with soap and water. Carry hand sanitizer and use it often. > If you learn how to use and dispose of them correctly, personal > protective gear like goggles or safety glasses a respirator or N-95 > disposable masks would be helpful. But in a pinch if confronted with > the unwashed masses, I would use a clean handkerchief or paper towel > or anything else handy to cover my nose and mouth and try to quickly > do my business. > > I hope that helps. > > Stuart LaForge > > "Fear is the mind-killer." -Frank Herbert > "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." -Franklin D. Roosevelt > "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now > is the time to understand more so that we may fear less."- Marie Curie From giulio at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 08:27:42 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:27:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan, thanks for directing me to this very interesting paper. I think the term "decadence" is used in two different ways. 1. There's the "decadence" of those who do sex, drugs, and rock&roll. I don't consider this as decadence, provided they do also other things. I am a libertarian at heart, and think everyone should be free to think, say, and do wtf they want as long as they don't directly harm others. 2. Then there's the real decadence of those who have lost the imagination, motivation, and energy to do big things like going to the Moon and colonizing the solar system and tomorrow the stars. I think this is real decadence. Now, some people (perhaps including Douthat himself), conflate these two *very different* things, decadence(1) and decadence(2). I don't, but the possibility that Douthat does doesn't prevent me from agreeing with him that decadence(2) is a very disturbing trend that should be stopped. And I agree that some intersections of space and religion could provide the best way out of decadence(2). On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 6:48 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mar 6, 2020, at 1:20 AM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > > ?Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat > > Peter Thiel notes that this book by Ross Douthat "sets the stakes for > the most urgent public debate of the 2020s: How do we get back to the > future?" > > https://turingchurch.net/space-and-religion-are-the-likeliest-pathways-out-of-decadence-ross-douthat-c752ecad6e63 > > > Have you read this: > > https://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/praise-decadence > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 12:33:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 07:33:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:48 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I disagree with Douthat on the points that you mention. But I don't have > to agree on everything before agreeing on something. In THIS case, I think > he has good points and solid arguments.* > Even if I'm wrong about religion conferring no net positive value to society, doesn't the fact that the alleged utility is based on a lie and in the case of Christianity is utter nonsense, give you pause in assigning an essential nobility to the various religious franchises? I say nonsense because if "God becoming furious with the entire human race because just one of its members ate an apple when told not to, and even though He can do anything He can't just forgive Humanity, the only way God can forgive all of humanity is for the Homo sapiens to torture His Son, who is also God and who He loves very much, to death" is not nonsense then nothing is nonsense. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 12:39:15 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 06:39:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The COVID-19 death rate is 3.4% In-Reply-To: <20200306214054.Horde.q0IKNHZLX1tgrf7E8o4CGD8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200306214054.Horde.q0IKNHZLX1tgrf7E8o4CGD8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: I would generally agree EXCEPT that I have gotten pneumonia 5+ times in my life. RIP. Like I said, not panicking yet. But willing to consider it, lol. SR Ballard > On Mar 6, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > Quoting SR Ballard: > >> I?m not panicking YET, but in my metro area they accidentally let out a lady who tested positive. She visited a grocery store 500m for me on the busiest day of business we have seen in the last 6 months. RIP. > > To quote Douglas Adams, "Don't panic!" > > Instead, learn: > > http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/en/article/id/e53946e2-c6c4-41e9-9a9b-fea8db1a8f51 > > https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762130?guestAccessKey=bdcca6fa-a48c-4028-8406-7f3d04a3e932&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=022420 > > > Yes, it is the Chinese CDC but it is still data. Check out table 1 of the first link. If you are under 50 your mortality rate is under 1% unless you have some pretty severe comorbidities. If I was a young whippersnapper, then I would consider catching it deliberately, taking two weeks of sick leave, and playing video games while ordering out. After that, you should retain lifelong immunity. Call it a jungle vaccination. > > The most at risk are those over 80 who have a CFR of about 15%. If I were over 60, I would avoid crowds and practice not touching my face when out in public until immediately after I had washed them for 20 seconds with soap and water. Carry hand sanitizer and use it often. If you learn how to use and dispose of them correctly, personal protective gear like goggles or safety glasses a respirator or N-95 disposable masks would be helpful. But in a pinch if confronted with the unwashed masses, I would use a clean handkerchief or paper towel or anything else handy to cover my nose and mouth and try to quickly do my business. > > I hope that helps. > > Stuart LaForge > > "Fear is the mind-killer." -Frank Herbert > "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." -Franklin D. Roosevelt > "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more so that we may fear less."- Marie Curie > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 13:19:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:19:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The COVID-19 death rate is 3.4% In-Reply-To: References: <20200306214054.Horde.q0IKNHZLX1tgrf7E8o4CGD8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 7:45 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > I have gotten pneumonia 5+ times in my life. * I got the Prevnar 13 vaccination, it provided immunity to 13 different strains of the bacteria that can produce Streptococcus pneumonia; it provides no protection against viral pneumonia but the most common cause of that is seasonal flu and fortunately there is a vaccine for that too. COVID-19 also attacks the lungs so without a vaccine for that the best we can do is to see to it that our lungs are as healthy as possible if it should show up. > * > Like I said, not panicking yet. But willing to consider it, lol.* > He who can keep his mind when all others are losing theirs does not understand the situation. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 13:38:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 07:38:52 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The COVID-19 death rate is 3.4% In-Reply-To: References: <20200306214054.Horde.q0IKNHZLX1tgrf7E8o4CGD8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Some amazing percentage of us carries pneumonia around with us all the time. It is inhaled and our immune system destroys it. The reason so many old people die of it in hospitals is not that they caught it there, but that their system was weak and unable to fight it off. bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 6:44 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I would generally agree EXCEPT that I have gotten pneumonia 5+ times in my > life. RIP. > > Like I said, not panicking yet. But willing to consider it, lol. > > SR Ballard > > > On Mar 6, 2020, at 11:40 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > Quoting SR Ballard: > > > >> I?m not panicking YET, but in my metro area they accidentally let out a > lady who tested positive. She visited a grocery store 500m for me on the > busiest day of business we have seen in the last 6 months. RIP. > > > > To quote Douglas Adams, "Don't panic!" > > > > Instead, learn: > > > > > http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/en/article/id/e53946e2-c6c4-41e9-9a9b-fea8db1a8f51 > > > > > https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762130?guestAccessKey=bdcca6fa-a48c-4028-8406-7f3d04a3e932&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=022420 > > > > > > Yes, it is the Chinese CDC but it is still data. Check out table 1 of > the first link. If you are under 50 your mortality rate is under 1% unless > you have some pretty severe comorbidities. If I was a young whippersnapper, > then I would consider catching it deliberately, taking two weeks of sick > leave, and playing video games while ordering out. After that, you should > retain lifelong immunity. Call it a jungle vaccination. > > > > The most at risk are those over 80 who have a CFR of about 15%. If I > were over 60, I would avoid crowds and practice not touching my face when > out in public until immediately after I had washed them for 20 seconds with > soap and water. Carry hand sanitizer and use it often. If you learn how to > use and dispose of them correctly, personal protective gear like goggles or > safety glasses a respirator or N-95 disposable masks would be helpful. But > in a pinch if confronted with the unwashed masses, I would use a clean > handkerchief or paper towel or anything else handy to cover my nose and > mouth and try to quickly do my business. > > > > I hope that helps. > > > > Stuart LaForge > > > > "Fear is the mind-killer." -Frank Herbert > > "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." -Franklin D. Roosevelt > > "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is > the time to understand more so that we may fear less."- Marie Curie > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 13:46:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 07:46:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Religions are touted by others and by themselves for all the giving to charity they do. However, a close look at the balance sheets shows a substantial amount going to building funds and missionary work, which benefit only themselves. bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 6:36 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:48 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I disagree with Douthat on the points that you mention. But I don't >> have to agree on everything before agreeing on something. In THIS case, I >> think he has good points and solid arguments.* >> > > Even if I'm wrong about religion conferring no net positive value to > society, doesn't the fact that the alleged utility is based on a lie and in > the case of Christianity is utter nonsense, give you pause in assigning an > essential nobility to the various religious franchises? I say nonsense > because if "God becoming furious with the entire human race because just > one of its members ate an apple when told not to, and even though He can do > anything He can't just forgive Humanity, the only way God can forgive all > of humanity is for the Homo sapiens to torture His Son, who is also God and > who He loves very much, to death" is not nonsense then nothing is nonsense. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Mar 7 15:31:22 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:31:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/03/2020 06:23, BillW wrote: > I just don't think that governments of whatever nature are comparable > to small radical groups, like Hezbollah.? If there are these out there > that are fundamentally atheist I would like to know about them.? bill w I don't see how there could be. What 'unholy' book, or other set of absolute rules would they get their ideas from? What supernatural rewards or punishments would they be reacting to? Non-believers get a really bum deal when it comes to being told how they must and must not behave, dress, eat, think and beat up people who don't agree with those rules. Poor things, they have to work out their morality for themselves! No blindly following ancient scripts, no being told they aren't allowed to ask questions, no concept of 'sin', no dumb acceptance of institutionalised bigotry, no fear of eternal punishment after they cease to exist (and no questioning what that even means). What chance do they have? -- Ben Zaiboc From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 15:44:31 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:44:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C813636-0F38-42F2-B594-F7F0DBB9D709@gmail.com> Plenty of Atheists fall prey to non-Religious cults which operate in exactly the same way as religious extremists. Extremism is extremism. SR Ballard > On Mar 7, 2020, at 9:31 AM, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On 07/03/2020 06:23, BillW wrote: >> I just don't think that governments of whatever nature are comparable to small radical groups, like Hezbollah. If there are these out there that are fundamentally atheist I would like to know about them. bill w > > I don't see how there could be. What 'unholy' book, or other set of absolute rules would they get their ideas from? What supernatural rewards or punishments would they be reacting to? Non-believers get a really bum deal when it comes to being told how they must and must not behave, dress, eat, think and beat up people who don't agree with those rules. > > Poor things, they have to work out their morality for themselves! No blindly following ancient scripts, no being told they aren't allowed to ask questions, no concept of 'sin', no dumb acceptance of institutionalised bigotry, no fear of eternal punishment after they cease to exist (and no questioning what that even means). What chance do they have? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 15:45:57 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:45:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Or, put another, 50% of the human race willfully ignored him, and the other 50% followed them... SR Ballard > On Mar 7, 2020, at 6:33 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:48 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > I disagree with Douthat on the points that you mention. But I don't have to agree on everything before agreeing on something. In THIS case, I think he has good points and solid arguments. > > Even if I'm wrong about religion conferring no net positive value to society, doesn't the fact that the alleged utility is based on a lie and in the case of Christianity is utter nonsense, give you pause in assigning an essential nobility to the various religious franchises? I say nonsense because if "God becoming furious with the entire human race because just one of its members ate an apple when told not to, and even though He can do anything He can't just forgive Humanity, the only way God can forgive all of humanity is for the Homo sapiens to torture His Son, who is also God and who He loves very much, to death" is not nonsense then nothing is nonsense. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 15:53:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:53:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What chance do they have? Ben Zaiboc Not much. If I were in charge, all high schools would have religion classes, which would include atheist's reasons for not believing and showing you can have a moral system without religion. What chance does this have? Zilch. Our schools are anything but open. bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 9:33 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 07/03/2020 06:23, BillW wrote: > > I just don't think that governments of whatever nature are comparable > > to small radical groups, like Hezbollah. If there are these out there > > that are fundamentally atheist I would like to know about them. bill w > > I don't see how there could be. What 'unholy' book, or other set of > absolute rules would they get their ideas from? What supernatural > rewards or punishments would they be reacting to? Non-believers get a > really bum deal when it comes to being told how they must and must not > behave, dress, eat, think and beat up people who don't agree with those > rules. > > Poor things, they have to work out their morality for themselves! No > blindly following ancient scripts, no being told they aren't allowed to > ask questions, no concept of 'sin', no dumb acceptance of > institutionalised bigotry, no fear of eternal punishment after they > cease to exist (and no questioning what that even means). What chance do > they have? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 16:06:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:06:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001d01d5f49a$533a0570$f9ae1050$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat >>?God becoming furious with the entire human race because just one of its members ate an apple when told not to? John K Clark >?Or, put another, 50% of the human race willfully ignored him, and the other 50% followed them... SR Ballard SR, almost right, if you were referring to John?s comment. 100% of the human race devoured the forbidden fruit. The woman ate it first. Then her boyfriend followed his sweetheart. No man could say no to a nekkid beauty who is also the only woman in the world. We boys still do things a lot like that today. We can?t help it: femininity is seductively beautiful. We are powerless to resist the temptations put before us by female humanity. We grovel helplessly, to the point of self-destruction, I tells ya! Resistance of womankind?s overpowering beauty is futile, pointless. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 16:11:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:11:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cool idea! Message-ID: <002601d5f49a$ff702c20$fe508460$@rainier66.com> Let?s hope this works: https://news.mit.edu/2020/showing-robots-learn-chores-0306?utm_source=dlvr.it &utm_medium=twitter We get one of these interactive robots, park him in front of a screen, have him watch hundreds of hours of porno videos, transfer the software to the other similar units, create an army of sexbots, we make a cubic buttload of money. Unintended consequence: women completely lose interest in us bio-units. We are way too much trouble, when the mechanical versions of manhood are so much more compelling and better-trained. OK cancel that idea. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Mar 7 16:27:10 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:27:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/03/2020 06:23, Adrian Tymes wrote: > I am reminded of stories where the last humans in a solar system took > their city mobile, sticking to the slim (and moving) spot on the > planet that was sufficiently shielded and life-compatible, with crews > working the terrain ahead so the city could stay on the march. OK, so that's one possible defence. Pick a massive body that's certain to withstand the onslaught and provide enough shielding, and stay behind it. For as long as it takes. You'd have to be completely self-sufficient (which pretty much rules out any biological existence, I would think), and able to maneouvre to stay in the shielded spot. I imagine gas giants would get shredded by this kind of event, and stars are probably not dense enough to provide the shielding needed, so that leaves large rocky planets like the earth. I can't see crawling around on the surface like in those stories being viable (storms, vulcanism) and of course an orbit would be useless, so what does that leave? Going deep underground (as in, in the mantle)? If a shell of dense rock was constructed, and a civilisation located at the centre (uploads in some nano-structured substrate, say), how thick would the rock need to be? Can anyone do the maths on this? One supernova per month, indefinitely, from say our galactic centre? Altenatively, how big would your computational parts (logic gates, or their equivalent) need to be, to be indifferent to a barrage of intense radiation like that? Would a civilisation made of beer cans and string survive? Is there something that could even use the radiation to its advantage, and thrive in an evironment like this? -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 16:40:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:40:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] saved by a virus? Message-ID: <004901d5f49f$107cf620$3176e260$@rainier66.com> Amid the global warming hysteria, corona virus fears may have reduced international travel enough to have had a greater impact on carbon dioxide emissions than any international agreement. Heh. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 16:45:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 10:45:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] saved by a virus? In-Reply-To: <004901d5f49f$107cf620$3176e260$@rainier66.com> References: <004901d5f49f$107cf620$3176e260$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: So when we get sick, we can say 'This is for you, Gaia.' bill w > > Amid the global warming hysteria, corona virus fears may have reduced > international travel enough to have had a greater impact on carbon dioxide > emissions than any international agreement. Heh. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 16:52:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 10:52:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] cool idea! In-Reply-To: <002601d5f49a$ff702c20$fe508460$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d5f49a$ff702c20$fe508460$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: and tireless and willing to do anything bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 10:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Let?s hope this works: > > > > > https://news.mit.edu/2020/showing-robots-learn-chores-0306?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter > > > > We get one of these interactive robots, park him in front of a screen, > have him watch hundreds of hours of porno videos, transfer the software to > the other similar units, create an army of sexbots, we make a cubic > buttload of money. > > > > Unintended consequence: women completely lose interest in us bio-units. > We are way too much trouble, when the mechanical versions of manhood are so > much more compelling and better-trained. OK cancel that idea. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 16:55:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 11:55:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] cool idea! In-Reply-To: <002601d5f49a$ff702c20$fe508460$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d5f49a$ff702c20$fe508460$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Unintended consequence: women completely lose interest in us bio-units. > We are way too much trouble, when the mechanical versions of manhood are so > much more compelling and better-trained. * Oh well, at least the Fermi Paradox is explained. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 16:57:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:57:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cool idea! In-Reply-To: <002601d5f49a$ff702c20$fe508460$@rainier66.com> References: <002601d5f49a$ff702c20$fe508460$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005901d5f4a1$7b5779a0$72066ce0$@rainier66.com> I have a better idea. Read on please: From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 8:11 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: cool idea! Let?s hope this works: https://news.mit.edu/2020/showing-robots-learn-chores-0306?utm_source=dlvr.it &utm_medium=twitter >?We get one of these interactive robots, park him in front of a screen, have him watch hundreds of hours of porno videos, transfer the software to the other similar units, create an army of sexbots, we make a cubic buttload of money. >?Unintended consequence: women completely lose interest in us bio-units. We are way too much trouble, when the mechanical versions of manhood are so much more compelling and better-trained. OK cancel that idea? spike OK so I figured out how to solve the problem. Instead of training the sexbots with those athletic miracle workers in the porno videos, I will make the sacrifice and train the sexbots myself. I will line up volunteers to help with that, then I teach the robots, and since I am nothing special in that department, it would be like having the Jedi Knights trained not by Obi Wan but rather by Jar Jar Binks. Then we mere mortals can still compete with the mechanical bastards. We could do it that way and still make a ton of money: they wouldn?t be as good, but plenty of customers would buy two of them to fully satisfy her needs. We even solve overpopulation as a bonus, such a deal. The one can be getting busy with her, the other can be setting the table. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 17:06:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:06:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The COVID-19 death rate is 3.4% In-Reply-To: <20200306214054.Horde.q0IKNHZLX1tgrf7E8o4CGD8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200306214054.Horde.q0IKNHZLX1tgrf7E8o4CGD8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 12:44 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If you are under 50 your mortality rate is under 1% * But that's still ten times the death rate of the regular old seasonal Flu, and even that isn't much fun. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 17:28:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:28:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] saved by a virus? In-Reply-To: References: <004901d5f49f$107cf620$3176e260$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009301d5f4a5$d17c40a0$7474c1e0$@rainier66.com> >>?Amid the global warming hysteria, corona virus fears may have reduced international travel enough to have had a greater impact on carbon dioxide emissions than any international agreement. Heh. spike > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] saved by a virus? So when we get sick, we can say 'This is for you, Gaia.' bill w No BillW, not when we get sick. We say that when we train the sexbots. It?s like a self-sacrificing service to humanity and nature. We go into business together, me lad. You teach them how to set a table, I teach them the other, we copy the software into each other, double the price, sell them in pairs as buy one get one free. We could become rich and famous, me lad! You can be famous, I will do rich. Somebody has to do it. This is for you, Gaia. In the spirit of the effort, I would donate 1% of my gain (net, after tax and such) to Save the Whales. Oh wait? when those guys surface, they whooooosh out that big plume of spray, attracting awed tourists, who burn fossil fuels to see that, and of course the whoooshy plume is higher in carbon dioxide than the gulp of air he took a coupla minutes before, so those blubbery bastards contribute to global warming (the whales and the tourists (even the thin ones.)) OK, never mind, I will contribute to Nuke the Whales. This is for you, Gaia. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 17:31:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:31:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cool idea! In-Reply-To: References: <002601d5f49a$ff702c20$fe508460$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b501d5f4a6$43925670$cab70350$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] cool idea! On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Unintended consequence: women completely lose interest in us bio-units. We are way too much trouble, when the mechanical versions of manhood are so much more compelling and better-trained. Oh well, at least the Fermi Paradox is explained. John K Clark Ja. And all this time we thought it would be nuclear winter or biological warfare. Sigh. Perhaps it is inevitable. Oh well, at least this way humanity goes out with a bang. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 17:47:44 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:47:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 8:28 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 07/03/2020 06:23, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > I am reminded of stories where the last humans in a solar system took > > their city mobile, sticking to the slim (and moving) spot on the > > planet that was sufficiently shielded and life-compatible, with crews > > working the terrain ahead so the city could stay on the march. > > OK, so that's one possible defence. Pick a massive body that's certain > to withstand the onslaught and provide enough shielding, and stay behind > it. For as long as it takes. You'd have to be completely self-sufficient > (which pretty much rules out any biological existence, I would think), > and able to maneouvre to stay in the shielded spot. > They could bring along greenhouses to sustain biological existence. > > I can't see crawling around > on the surface like in those stories being viable (storms, vulcanism) > Low atmosphere so no storms. Send drones ahead (with explosives, up to nuclear, if needed) to level volcanoes, at least long enough to pass by. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 17:50:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 11:50:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] saved by a virus? In-Reply-To: <009301d5f4a5$d17c40a0$7474c1e0$@rainier66.com> References: <004901d5f49f$107cf620$3176e260$@rainier66.com> <009301d5f4a5$d17c40a0$7474c1e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yeah, let's just kill everything that breathes. Then maybe we can figure out a way to inhale carbon dioxide and breath out oxygen through genetic engineering. C'mon Spike, it's 'nuke the unborn gay baby whales for Jesus' Sheesh. I gotta tell you everything. bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >>?Amid the global warming hysteria, corona virus fears may have reduced > international travel enough to have had a greater impact on carbon dioxide > emissions than any international agreement. Heh. > > spike > > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] saved by a virus? > > > > So when we get sick, we can say 'This is for you, Gaia.' > > > > bill w > > > > > > No BillW, not when we get sick. We say that when we train the sexbots. > It?s like a self-sacrificing service to humanity and nature. > > > > We go into business together, me lad. You teach them how to set a table, > I teach them the other, we copy the software into each other, double the > price, sell them in pairs as buy one get one free. We could become rich > and famous, me lad! You can be famous, I will do rich. Somebody has to do > it. This is for you, Gaia. > > > > In the spirit of the effort, I would donate 1% of my gain (net, after tax > and such) to Save the Whales. > > > > Oh wait? when those guys surface, they whooooosh out that big plume of > spray, attracting awed tourists, who burn fossil fuels to see that, and of > course the whoooshy plume is higher in carbon dioxide than the gulp of air > he took a coupla minutes before, so those blubbery bastards contribute to > global warming (the whales and the tourists (even the thin ones.)) OK, > never mind, I will contribute to Nuke the Whales. This is for you, Gaia. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 18:14:15 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 10:14:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat Message-ID: > On Mar 7, 2020, at 6:33 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: snip > Even if I'm wrong about religion conferring no net positive value to society, The tendency to get a religion is so common that it must have been under positive selection pressure at some time in the past. Not necessarily for religion per se. It could be a trait selected for something else (like war) that makes people vulnerable to religions. But even taking religions as pure parasitic memes, the first thing any parasite does is protect its host from other parasites. Or, as I have said for ages, it's better to be have a well aged religion than to be susceptible to fatal cults. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 18:35:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 10:35:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] sociology Message-ID: <010d01d5f4af$38c20070$aa460150$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat >...The tendency to get a religion is so common that it must have been under positive selection pressure at some time in the past. Not necessarily for religion per se. It could be a trait selected for something else (like war) that makes people vulnerable to religions. >...But even taking religions as pure parasitic memes, the first thing any parasite does is protect its host from other parasites. Or, as I have said for ages, it's better to be have a well aged religion than to be susceptible to fatal cults. Keith _______________________________________________ Keith this post is two of the most insightful paragraphs I have seen in months. Thanks for that. Perfect example: Presbyterianism, which implies old in its name. Harmless as a butterfly for most of the participants. I have retitled this thread to include a story I lived in my senior year of engineering school, regarding a topic I was having offlist with an expert in the field. Here ya go: I was in a house with 17 other engineering students (all men of course) so we seldom even knew the northeast end of campus was up there. The education people, the psychology majors, the sociology majors, art majors, that sorta thing, were up that way, never even met most of them in that small school of 1600. One of the guys fell for a girl who was the classic easy-coaster, well-to-do family, there for her MRS degree, sociology major (widely considered the easiest undergrad degree in those days.) We got to talking to her, she admitted that they had to lie to the test subjects to do their sociology studies, in every case. She showed us why: three groups of test subject volunteers, one told what the study was really about, another group told nothing, and the third told a false reason. Vastly different results, the first group producing results easily falsifiable. Knowing what the study was about influenced the outcome. A number of us engineers started volunteering for those experiments because of her, but we did it as a game: try to figure out what the hell they were really studying. The girl who knew us (she was the only sociology major who ever ventured onto the west side of campus where the tech nerds trolled about) set up an experiment where the sociologists would interview the subjects and have them fill out a paper test of sorts, an IQ test. The sociologist would coach them thru the test. They both sat at a small square table, no one else in the room, since the sociologists were studying the test subjects and wanted to eliminate outside influences. I must preface this story with a reminder that this was an extremely conservative religious fundamental college. So they did the test. A hidden camera was set up to study the test subjects. Unknown to the sociologists running the test, a second and third hidden cameras were studying the sociologists, nearly all of whom were female, single and starving (if you get my drift.) The girlfriend of the engineer had secretly gathered a bunch of girls from a nearby college and had them rate the men for attractiveness based on photos. The study was really about how the behavior of the sociologist varied widely depending on the perceived attractiveness and even the class standing of the test subject. Most of the women at that college wore skirts and blouses. The behavior observed more often with the high-rated men by the sociologists is a cleavage-producing maneuver where the ladies hold their arms while leaning across the table to explain something to the men. They could choose to sit across the table, or they could sit adjacent on the same side of the table beside, or at a corner pi/2 radians from the test subject. The sociologists chose to sit closer with the hotties, choosing to distance themselves from us bony-asses. They would also spend more time and have more eye-contact along with the boobs-enhancing behavior. The sociologists were unaware they were being studied as they thought they were studying seduction behaviors in the men while the subjects were told they were getting an IQ test. Well. When that report came out, all hell broke loose. It developed into a huge ethics study in the sociology department. This was perhaps the only sociology senior project which is still talked about at that school to this day. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 18:39:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:39:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Space and religion are the likeliest pathways out of decadence: Ross Douthat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: keith wrote The tendency to get a religion is so common that it must have been under positive selection pressure at some time in the past. Maybe you would know: I suspect that the amount of variability in the small tribes that constituted our ancestors' living arrangements was rather small. Everyone had to follow/believe in the shaman, whether a separate figure, or the leader himself, or get shunned. Conformity pressures in small groups are large. Even today we have religions that preach that unbelievers should be killed. bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 12:16 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2020, at 6:33 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > snip > > > Even if I'm wrong about religion conferring no net positive value to > society, > > The tendency to get a religion is so common that it must have been > under positive selection pressure at some time in the past. Not > necessarily for religion per se. It could be a trait selected for > something else (like war) that makes people vulnerable to religions. > > But even taking religions as pure parasitic memes, the first thing any > parasite does is protect its host from other parasites. Or, as I have > said for ages, it's better to be have a well aged religion than to be > susceptible to fatal cults. > > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 20:03:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:03:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... Message-ID: <002301d5f4bb$67eb6740$37c235c0$@rainier66.com> I live in Santa Clara. Here's the story that came out yesterday: March 6 - ABC7 News (Julian Glover): "A Santa Clara couple on the Grand Princess Cruise ship to Mexico with a coronavirus-positive man is ill and now getting tested for COVID-19. Leanne and Robert Cummins of Santa Clara were on board the Grand Princess Cruise ship to Mexico that departed on Feb. 11. A man on board that ship was infected with coronavirus and later died... After being notified of the man's death by the cruise line, Mrs. Leanne Cummins said they started looking to be tested for the virus - especially since they are feeling ill. Cummins said her husband has been very ill in recent days with no appetite, trouble breathing, and a fever at one point as high as 103 degrees. . They have been self-quarantining at their Santa Clara home. Mrs. Cummins also said at one point she felt weak and fainted. On Wednesday Cummins said she called the Sutter Health Urgent Care facility in Mountain View looking to be tested for the virus. She was told to go to the emergency room at her local hospital. She reached out to the emergency room at El Camino Hospital in Mountain View which then told her to call her doctor. She said her doctor then told her to go to Santa Clara Valley Medical Center to get tested. She said she called Valley Medical Center and was told that the hospital did not have any test kits and would not be conducting any testing. She was told to call the CDC. On Thursday, Mrs. Cummins said she did exactly that and a CDC representative told her to call the California Department of Public Health. She did and was told to call the Santa Clara County Health Department. She made that call and reached an answering machine. ABC7 News has also tried several times to speak to a public information officer at Santa Clara County Health Department in reference to where someone concerned about exposure to the virus should go for testing and was unsuccessful. After numerous calls a non-public health employee who was assigned to answer phones told ABC7 News that Mrs. Cummins should call her primary care physician back and have the doctor call the public health provider intake line. Again, still no answer as to where the couple should go to get tested." OK, suppose you are Mrs. Cummins. What would you do? I would be inclined to call 911 and tell them everything. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 20:30:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 14:30:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... In-Reply-To: <002301d5f4bb$67eb6740$37c235c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d5f4bb$67eb6740$37c235c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: OK, suppose you are Mrs. Cummins. What would you do? I would be inclined to call 911 and tell them everything. spike I would call the Governor's office. Make it political. bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I live in Santa Clara. Here's the story that came out yesterday: > > > > March 6 - ABC7 News (Julian Glover): "A Santa Clara couple on the Grand > Princess Cruise ship to Mexico with a coronavirus-positive man is ill and > now getting tested for COVID-19. Leanne and Robert Cummins of Santa Clara > were on board the Grand Princess Cruise ship to Mexico that departed on > Feb. > 11. A man on board that ship was infected with coronavirus and later > died... > > > After being notified of the man's death by the cruise line, Mrs. Leanne > Cummins said they started looking to be tested for the virus - especially > since they are feeling ill. Cummins said her husband has been very ill in > recent days with no appetite, trouble breathing, and a fever at one point > as > high as 103 degrees. . > > They have been self-quarantining at their Santa Clara home. Mrs. Cummins > also said at one point she felt weak and fainted. > > On Wednesday Cummins said she called the Sutter Health Urgent Care facility > in Mountain View looking to be tested for the virus. She was told to go to > the emergency room at her local hospital. She reached out to the emergency > room at El Camino Hospital in Mountain View which then told her to call her > doctor. She said her doctor then told her to go to Santa Clara Valley > Medical Center to get tested. She said she called Valley Medical Center and > was told that the hospital did not have any test kits and would not be > conducting any testing. She was told to call the CDC. > > On Thursday, Mrs. Cummins said she did exactly that and a CDC > representative > told her to call the California Department of Public Health. She did and > was > told to call the Santa Clara County Health Department. She made that call > and reached an answering machine. > > ABC7 News has also tried several times to speak to a public information > officer at Santa Clara County Health Department in reference to where > someone concerned about exposure to the virus should go for testing and was > unsuccessful. After numerous calls a non-public health employee who was > assigned to answer phones told ABC7 News that Mrs. Cummins should call her > primary care physician back and have the doctor call the public health > provider intake line. > > Again, still no answer as to where the couple should go to get tested." > > > > > OK, suppose you are Mrs. Cummins. What would you do? I would be inclined > to call 911 and tell them everything. > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat Mar 7 20:28:41 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 15:28:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Fermi Paradox, Vol 198, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If a shell of dense rock was constructed, and a civilisation located at > the centre (uploads in some nano-structured substrate, say), how thick > would the rock need to be? Can anyone do the maths on this? . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yep. We did. Roy, Kenneth I., Robert G. Kennedy, and David E. Fields. 2009. "Shell Worlds: An Approach to Terraforming Moons, Small Planets, and Plutoids." Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, volume 61, number 1, pages 32-38. January 8, 2009. Roy, Kenneth I., Kennedy, Robert G., and David E. Fields. 2013. "Shell Worlds". Acta Astronautica, volume 82, issue 2, February 2013, pages 238-245. Available online 2 October 2012, ISSN 0094-5765, doi: 10.1016/j.actaastro.2012.08.034. Keywords: megastructures; space colonization-industrialization; circumstellar habitable zones; terraforming; extraterrestrial resources; SETI. Roy, Kenneth I., Robert G. Kennedy, and David E. Fields. 2013. "Colonizing the Plutoids: The Key to Human Expansion into the Galaxy", Tennessee Valley Interstellar Workshop 2013 Special Issue of Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, volume 66, no. 10-11, Oct/Nov 2013. Roy, Kenneth I., Kennedy, Robert G., and David E. Fields. 2013. "Shell Worlds: The Question of Shell Stability and Other Issues", Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, volume 67, no. 10, Oct 2014, pp.364-368. RGK3 Robert G. Kennedy III, PE www.ultimax.com 1994 AAAS/ASME Congressional Fellow U.S. House Subcommittee on Space On 2020-03-07 11:52, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:27:10 +0000 > From: Ben Zaiboc > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: Re: [ExI] The Fermi Paradox [snip] > I imagine gas giants would get shredded by this kind of event, and > stars > are probably not dense enough to provide the shielding needed, so that > leaves large rocky planets like the earth. I can't see crawling around > on the surface like in those stories being viable (storms, vulcanism) > and of course an orbit would be useless, so what does that leave? Going > deep underground (as in, in the mantle)? > > If a shell of dense rock was constructed, and a civilisation located at > the centre (uploads in some nano-structured substrate, say), how thick > would the rock need to be? Can anyone do the maths on this? One . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > supernova per month, indefinitely, from say our galactic centre? From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 20:41:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 12:41:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... In-Reply-To: References: <002301d5f4bb$67eb6740$37c235c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003501d5f4c0$d382f1d0$7a88d570$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... OK, suppose you are Mrs. Cummins. What would you do? I would be inclined to call 911 and tell them everything. spike I would call the Governor's office. Make it political. bill w BillW, it is already political, which is how this whole thing became such a cluster. >? She reached out to the emergency room at El Camino Hospital in Mountain View which then told her to call her doctor. ? El Camino Hospital is where I landed on 11 December 2019 with pneumonia. That was before anyone heard of COVID-19. Full recovery took 7 weeks. Mixing science with politics results in politics. spike On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: I live in Santa Clara. Here's the story that came out yesterday: March 6 - ABC7 News (Julian Glover): "A Santa Clara couple on the Grand Princess Cruise ship to Mexico with a coronavirus-positive man is ill and now getting tested for COVID-19. Leanne and Robert Cummins of Santa Clara? She reached out to the emergency room at El Camino Hospital in Mountain View which then told her to call her doctor. ?spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 22:16:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 14:16:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid Message-ID: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> Regarding the corona virus, I took the numbers off that Johns Hopkins site of the number of confirmed cases, looked up the population of the 11 nations with the most cases, then calculated the number of cases per million proles, or a per capita times a million. That last column is where I normalized thru by the infection rate of the US, since we yanks tend to use this tragedy as a political football. We never let a good crisis go to waste. That exercise gave me a new perspective. I assumed China was the worst hit, but viewed on a basis of cases per million, South Korea is way worse, Italy and Iran is worse, USA is merely threatened. These numbers will likely change in the next few days. Let's watch and wait, shall we? spike nation confirmed cases million proles cases per million times worse than USA China 80652 1,345 60.0 49 South Korea 7041 51.26 137.4 113 Italy 5883 60.49 97.3 80 Iran 5823 84 69.3 57 France 949 65.3 14.5 12 Germany 799 83.8 9.5 8 Spain 500 46.8 10.7 9 Japan 461 126.5 3.6 3 USA 401 329 1.2 =1 Switzerland 268 8.7 30.8 25 UK 206 67.9 3.0 2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 22:47:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:47:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... In-Reply-To: <003501d5f4c0$d382f1d0$7a88d570$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d5f4bb$67eb6740$37c235c0$@rainier66.com> <003501d5f4c0$d382f1d0$7a88d570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Mixing science with politics results in politics. spike Yeah, but I'll bet if the Gov told somebody to get trucking, something would get done The scientists have no power like that bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... > > > > OK, suppose you are Mrs. Cummins. What would you do? I would be inclined > to call 911 and tell them everything. > > spike > > > > I would call the Governor's office. Make it political. bill w > > > > > > BillW, it is already political, which is how this whole thing became such > a cluster. > > > > >? She reached out to the emergency room at El Camino Hospital in Mountain > View which then told her to call her doctor. ? > > > > El Camino Hospital is where I landed on 11 December 2019 with pneumonia. > That was before anyone heard of COVID-19. Full recovery took 7 weeks. > > > > Mixing science with politics results in politics. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > I live in Santa Clara. Here's the story that came out yesterday: > > > > March 6 - ABC7 News (Julian Glover): "A Santa Clara couple on the Grand > Princess Cruise ship to Mexico with a coronavirus-positive man is ill and > now getting tested for COVID-19. Leanne and Robert Cummins of Santa Clara? > She reached out to the emergency room at El Camino Hospital in Mountain > View which then told her to call her > doctor. ?spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 7 23:04:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:04:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... In-Reply-To: References: <002301d5f4bb$67eb6740$37c235c0$@rainier66.com> <003501d5f4c0$d382f1d0$7a88d570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007401d5f4d4$c8793b50$596bb1f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... Mixing science with politics results in politics. spike Yeah, but I'll bet if the Gov told somebody to get trucking, something would get done The scientists have no power like that bill w The Gov did tell somebody, and something did get done. That is how we got to these numbers in the table below. We can?t talk about them in polite company of course, for fear of making the US government look competent. That risk would be worse than the actual virus (oh horrors, how shall we cope?) Fortunately for us, I am not polite company: nation confirmed cases million proles cases per million times worse than USA China 80652 1,345 60.0 49 South Korea 7041 51.26 137.4 113 Italy 5883 60.49 97.3 80 Iran 5823 84 69.3 57 France 949 65.3 14.5 12 Germany 799 83.8 9.5 8 Spain 500 46.8 10.7 9 Japan 461 126.5 3.6 3 USA 401 329 1.2 =1 Switzerland 268 8.7 30.8 25 UK 206 67.9 3.0 2 We might point out that most nations in Africa have no cases, and their governments have done nothing. Or we might point out that travel spreads the virus. Smoking hot western economies have a lot of travel in and out. Result: rich countries get a lot of disease. Solution: shut down international travel for a few weeks. The economy will recover. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 23:09:37 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:09:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... In-Reply-To: <007401d5f4d4$c8793b50$596bb1f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d5f4bb$67eb6740$37c235c0$@rainier66.com> <003501d5f4c0$d382f1d0$7a88d570$@rainier66.com> <007401d5f4d4$c8793b50$596bb1f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, you did not say that Mrs. Cummins finally got tested. And the airlines will suffer greatly, though I cannot get too upset about that. bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 5:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] meanwhile, back in california... > > > > Mixing science with politics results in politics. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > Yeah, but I'll bet if the Gov told somebody to get trucking, something > would get done The scientists have no power like that bill w > > > > The Gov did tell somebody, and something did get done. That is how we got > to these numbers in the table below. We can?t talk about them in polite > company of course, for fear of making the US government look competent. > That risk would be worse than the actual virus (oh horrors, how shall we > cope?) > > Fortunately for us, I am not polite company: > > *nation* > > *confirmed cases* > > *million proles* > > *cases per million* > > *times worse than USA* > > China > > 80652 > > 1,345 > > 60.0 > > 49 > > South Korea > > 7041 > > 51.26 > > 137.4 > > 113 > > Italy > > 5883 > > 60.49 > > 97.3 > > 80 > > Iran > > 5823 > > 84 > > 69.3 > > 57 > > France > > 949 > > 65.3 > > 14.5 > > 12 > > Germany > > 799 > > 83.8 > > 9.5 > > 8 > > Spain > > 500 > > 46.8 > > 10.7 > > 9 > > Japan > > 461 > > 126.5 > > 3.6 > > 3 > > USA > > 401 > > 329 > > 1.2 > > =1 > > Switzerland > > 268 > > 8.7 > > 30.8 > > 25 > > UK > > 206 > > 67.9 > > 3.0 > > 2 > > > > We might point out that most nations in Africa have no cases, and their > governments have done nothing. > > Or we might point out that travel spreads the virus. Smoking hot western > economies have a lot of travel in and out. Result: rich countries get a > lot of disease. Solution: shut down international travel for a few weeks. > The economy will recover. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 23:27:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 18:27:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I took the numbers off that Johns Hopkins site of the number of > confirmed cases* I don't think those numbers mean much. Due to incredible inept management test kits are very rare so as of yesterday only 1895 people in the entire USA have even been tested, if 401 of them came out positive as you say that's not very good. By contrast as of 4 days ago South Korea had tested 140,000 people, they tested 66,650 people within one week of it first showing up in their country, but then...they had a different leader then the USA does. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 23:43:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:43:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] sad fact of the day Message-ID: In a poll, 82% of the people thought that foods genetically engineered should have warning labels. In the same poll 80% of the people thought that foods containing DNA should have a warning label. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 23:57:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:57:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] going too far? Message-ID: I am not a believer but I am a libertarian and I think this goes too far. Would hate to see it here. What do you think? bill w https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/world/canada/quebec-religious-symbols-ban.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 00:06:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:06:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> I took the numbers off that Johns Hopkins site of the number of confirmed cases >?I don't think those numbers mean much. Due to incredible inept management test kits are very rare so as of yesterday only 1895 people in the entire USA have even been tested, if 401 of them came out positive as you say that's not very good. By contrast as of 4 days ago South Korea had tested 140,000 people, they tested 66,650 people within one week of it first showing up in their country, but then...they had a different leader then the USA does. John K Clark South Korea has tested 74 times as many people and has 113 times the infection rate. Apparently South Korea?s leader has dropped the ball. The South Korean people should impeach him immediately, for the US government has demonstrated itself 1.8 times more effective at disease control. Or? realize that governments protect their people against foreign human invaders, but cannot necessarily protect them against disease. That isn?t what governments were set up to do. I don?t know when the people decided that government was responsible for everything. When did that happen? Do we really need (or want) the government holding our hand from cradle to grave? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 00:12:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 18:12:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don?t know when the people decided that government was responsible for everything. When did that happen? Do we really need (or want) the government holding our hand from cradle to grave? spike I think all those laws passed under FDR made dependents of all of us. Would you get rid of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and the rest? bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 6:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] perspective on covid > > > > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *>> ** I took the numbers off that Johns Hopkins site of the number of > confirmed cases* > > > > >?I don't think those numbers mean much. Due to incredible inept > management test kits are very rare so as of yesterday only 1895 people in > the entire USA have even been tested, if 401 of them came out positive as > you say that's not very good. By contrast as of 4 days ago South Korea had > tested 140,000 people, they tested 66,650 people within one week of it > first showing up in their country, but then...they had a different leader > then the USA does. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > > > South Korea has tested 74 times as many people and has 113 times the > infection rate. > > > > Apparently South Korea?s leader has dropped the ball. The South Korean > people should impeach him immediately, for the US government has > demonstrated itself 1.8 times more effective at disease control. > > > > Or? realize that governments protect their people against foreign human > invaders, but cannot necessarily protect them against disease. That isn?t > what governments were set up to do. I don?t know when the people decided > that government was responsible for everything. When did that happen? Do > we really need (or want) the government holding our hand from cradle to > grave? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 00:55:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:55:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid I don?t know when the people decided that government was responsible for everything. When did that happen? Do we really need (or want) the government holding our hand from cradle to grave? spike I think all those laws passed under FDR made dependents of all of us. Would you get rid of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and the rest? bill w Those programs are a good lesson in not allowing the Federal government keep taking on more stuff. It isn?t paying for what it is already trying to do. In the easily-foreseeable future, Social Security, Medicare etc will transition to pay-as-you-go. Just before that happens, most will see it coming. No one will want to work in government. Everything will be different. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 01:47:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 19:47:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If put into a complete pay as you go health economy, what might happen is that supply and demand start to work and some of the outrageous prices will come down. What will also happen is that a lot of people won't get good health care and some won't get any. And do you think that if those programs die the saved money will be put into decreasing the debt? Ha ha and ha. bill w On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 6:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] perspective on covid > > > > I don?t know when the people decided that government was responsible for > everything. When did that happen? Do we really need (or want) the > government holding our hand from cradle to grave? > > > > spike > > > > I think all those laws passed under FDR made dependents of all of us. > Would you get rid of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and the rest? > bill w > > > > Those programs are a good lesson in not allowing the Federal government > keep taking on more stuff. It isn?t paying for what it is already trying > to do. In the easily-foreseeable future, Social Security, Medicare etc > will transition to pay-as-you-go. Just before that happens, most will see > it coming. No one will want to work in government. Everything will be > different. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 02:08:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 18:08:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001d01d5f4ee$7035de70$50a19b50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 5:47 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid If put into a complete pay as you go health economy, what might happen is that supply and demand start to work and some of the outrageous prices will come down. What will also happen is that a lot of people won't get good health care and some won't get any. And do you think that if those programs die the saved money will be put into decreasing the debt? Ha ha and ha. bill w BillW, I am not arguing that any of this would be the chosen path. Only that economic reality will hit a government which has been living off of borrowing for decades. Eventually the lenders stop lending. Then, those programs transition to a pay as you go, regardless of economic needs, regardless of medical needs, absolutely regardless of tax structures. The Laffer Curve will be a concept every school child will understand and government leaders will learn. Transitioning these programs to pay as you go is not the path chosen, but rather the path given to us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 02:38:38 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 18:38:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] sociology Message-ID: wrote: snip > Keith this post is two of the most insightful paragraphs I have seen in months. Thanks for that. Welcome, but it is just elementary evolutionary psychology. > Perfect example: Presbyterianism, which implies old in its name. Harmless as a butterfly for most of the participants. It is now, but "The origins of the Presbyterian churches are in Calvinism." It is worth remembering that Calvin had 18 people executed for heresy. We would call the early Calvinism a cult. It is the normal progression for cults to settle into accepted religions. Incidentally, there is one historical example where religion might have caused some serious negative selection. The accounts are sketchy, but there seems to be little doubt that most of those who went on the Children's crusade did not reproduce. >I have retitled this thread to include a story I lived in my senior year of engineering school, regarding a topic I was having offlist with an expert in the field. Here ya go: Multilevel story clipped. You might note that some years ago many of the sociology programs were dropped in favor of EP. UCSB, UC Irvine, and the London School of Economics were among them. Years ago I posted a link to Dr. Badcock's analysis. I might be able to find it again if anyone cares. Keith From ilia.stambler at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 03:33:33 2020 From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 05:33:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] A new therapeutic approach improves the outcome of patients with (aging-related) COVID-19 Pneumonia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear friends I would like to bring to your attention the press release by the International Society on Aging and Disease (ISOAD), Shanghai University, Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences & Peking Union Medical College, China: A groundbreaking new therapeutic approach was developed and tested to improve outcome in patients suffering from novel coronavirus (COVID-19) pneumonia. The new technique involves intravenous transplantation of mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) into the patients. It was successfully tested in 7 COVID-19 patients, in Beijing YouAn Hospital, Capital Medical University, China. The results are published in the scientific journal *Aging and Disease*, entitled "Transplantation of ACE2- Mesenchymal Stem Cells Improves the Outcome of Patients with COVID-19 Pneumonia" (free on line): http://www.aginganddisease.org/article/0000/2152-5250/ad-0-0-216.shtml The study was conducted by a team led by Dr. Zhao, with Shanghai University and Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences & Peking Union Medical College, China. MSCs could cure or significantly improve the functional outcomes of all the seven tested patients without observed adverse effects, contrary to 3 controls. The pulmonary function and symptoms of these seven patients were significantly improved after MSC transplantation. Among them, one severe and two common patients recovered and were discharged in 10 days after the treatment. The presented evidence suggests that the therapeutic effects are based on the immunomodulatory capacity of mesenchymal stem cells (restoring the balance of the immune system). The coronavirus infection can stimulate a terrible cytokine storm in the lung, disrupting the balance of cytokines (signaling molecules of the immune system) such as IL-2, IL-6, IL-7, GSCF, IP10, MCP1, MIP1A and TNF? cytokines, followed by the edema, dysfunction of the air exchange, acute respiratory distress syndrome, acute cardiac injury and the secondary infection, which may lead to death. MSCs could inhibit the over-activation of the immune system and promote endogenous repair by improving the microenvironment, thus they could represent a safe and effective treatment for patients with COVID-19 pneumonia, especially for the patients in critically severe conditions. Notably, the coronavirus-infected pneumonia is more likely to affect older individuals, especially older males, with comorbidities, resulting in their severe and even fatal respiratory diseases such as acute respiratory distress syndrome. In other words, aging appears to be the main risk factor for bad outcomes. However, the cure essentially depends on the patient's own immune system. When the overactivated immune system kills the virus, it produces a large number of inflammatory factors, leading to the severe cytokine storms. This suggests that the main reason for the organs damage may be the virus-induced cytokine storm. Older subjects may be much easier to be affected due to immunosenescence. The study showed remarkable recovery of the elderly patients thanks to restoring their immune function. Thus, the study may have a broader significance, even beyond the treatment of the severe coronavirus disease. This study exemplifies that the general therapeutic improvement of the immune system in the elderly can improve outcome and survival, which may have more general relevance for other aging-related communicable diseases. Thus, this study may inspire and pave the way for further promising directions to investigate the connection between aging and disease, and to treat both communicable and non-communicable aging-related diseases. See the full press release from the International Society on Aging and Disease (ISOAD) http://www.isoad.org/Data/View/744 And the full free article http://www.aginganddisease.org/article/0000/2152-5250/ad-0-0-216.shtml Some press about this research: In English http://www.china.org.cn/china/2020-03/07/content_75785868.htm Romanian https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/interviu-ilia-stambler-tratament-coronavirus-covid-19-2904173 Korean https://www.fnnews.com/news/202003041842036630 On Facebook https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2853653751349033&id=763771300337299&__tn__=K-R Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13504310/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/new-therapeutic-approach-improves-outcome-patients-ilia-stambler/ Twitter https://twitter.com/isoad3/status/1235637338333560832 Ilia Stambler Outreach coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease http://www.isoad.org/ -- Ilia Stambler, PhD Director of Research and Development. Shmuel Harofe Geriatric Medical Center, Beer Yaakov, Israel, Affiliated to Sackler School of Medicine, Tel-Aviv University http://www.shmuelh.org.il/ Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) ? The Movement for Longevity and Quality of Life (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/ * Board member. International Longevity Alliance http://www.longevityalliance.org/ Board member. International Society on Aging and Disease http://www.isoad.org Fellow, Policy Director. Global Healthspan Policy Institute https://healthspanpolicy.org/ Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary Perspectives * http://longevityhistory.com Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578 Skype: iliastam Rishon Lezion. Israel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 03:44:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 22:44:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 7:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > I don?t know when the people decided that government was responsible > for everything.* > I don't think government is responsible for everything but I also don't think it's too much to ask that the leader of a country should show at least a trace of competence. *> economic reality will hit a government which has been living off of > borrowing for decades. Eventually the lenders stop lending.* You know something spike, I've been hearing that exact same song all my life and it's never even come close to coming true, and considering that today interest rates are astonishingly low it's a particularly bad time to be worrying about it when there are so many other things that are far more worthy of our concern. > *The Laffer Curve will be a concept every school child will understand > and government leaders will learn.* All the Laffer Curve says is that taxes shouldn't be too high or too low. That's it. It doesn't say how high is too high or how low is too low. Not exactly the most profound thing I've ever heard. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 03:58:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 19:58:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] sociology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005401d5f4fd$d8abf930$8a03eb90$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 6:39 PM Multilevel story clipped. You might note that some years ago many of the sociology programs were dropped in favor of EP. UCSB, UC Irvine, and the London School of Economics were among them. Years ago I posted a link to Dr. Badcock's analysis. I might be able to find it again if anyone cares. Keith _______________________________________________ Keith, I found the whole episode very interesting because of the fallout. The sociology department had spoken of ethical experimentation, but it wasn't until after the students were not only the test subjects themselves, they were unwitting test subjects. With recorded footage of themselves doing the boob maneuver, they were PISSED! spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 04:12:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:12:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 7:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? I don?t know when the people decided that government was responsible for everything. >?I don't think government is responsible for everything but I also don't think it's too much to ask that the leader of a country should show at least a trace of competence. Such as this? nation confirmed cases million proles cases per million times worse than USA China 80652 1,345 60.0 49 South Korea 7041 51.26 137.4 113 Italy 5883 60.49 97.3 80 Iran 5823 84 69.3 57 France 949 65.3 14.5 12 Germany 799 83.8 9.5 8 Spain 500 46.8 10.7 9 Japan 461 126.5 3.6 3 USA 401 329 1.2 =1 Switzerland 268 8.7 30.8 25 UK 206 67.9 3.0 2 Ok. Did it. >>? economic reality will hit a government which has been living off of borrowing for decades. Eventually the lenders stop lending. >?You know something spike, I've been hearing that exact same song all my life and it's never even come close to coming true? John K Clark Ja, we should eliminate taxes altogether and just borrow it all. If the suckers are willing to lend and interest rates are low, I don?t see the point in paying our bills ourselves. Let the Chinese pay for it all. They don?t dare stop lending because we go broke and they don?t get their money back. What are they going to do, repossess the country? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 12:51:11 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 08:51:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >?I don't think government is responsible for everything but I also don't >> think it's too much to ask that the leader of a country should show at >> least a trace of competence. >> > > > *Such as this?* No not like this. The only reason your figures make the USA look good and have far fewer confirmed cases than other large western countries is that the USA has tested far *FAR* fewer people than other large western countries; and even though it is a world leader in science and has the largest economy in the world due to leadership problems the USA doesn't have the capacity to test for more. So if not like that like what? Like listening to what scientists have to say about it for one thing, but the news just broke that the CDC recommended that to help contain the spread of the virus the elderly and those who are "physically fragile" not fly on commercial airlines, but the Chief Executive (who has no scientific or even executive ability whatsoever) overroad the recommendation and ordered the CDC not to tell the public anything about it. Instead the Commander In Chief believes happy talk and magical thinking is a good substitute for virus detection kits. It's one thing to hope for a miracle to happen in April that will make it all better, it's quite another to expect for one and make plans accordingly. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 13:25:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 06:25:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid >?No not like this. The only reason your figures make the USA look good and have far fewer confirmed cases than other large western countries is that the USA has tested far FAR fewer people than other large western countries? I was taking the ratio of confirmed cases to the number of people tested. Using that, the USA still looks good. North Korea has 1.8 times as many positives per prole tested. >? and even though it is a world leader in science? The USA is not a world leader in manufacturing. We are way down the list in that category. Most manufacturing has been outsourced to countries with fewer labor laws and environmental restrictions. China is the poster-child example of that, which is why they have so many factories there. >?and has the largest economy in the world? But not the largest manufacturing capacity. The US doesn?t make these virus testing kits much. >?due to leadership problems the USA doesn't have the capacity to test for more?John K Clark That lack of capacity has little to do with leadership. It has to do with tax structures, labor laws and environmental regulations that have sent manufacturing to China, where they don?t bother with keeping the environment clean or keeping the workers happy. Do let me assure you, old frail people already know to stay off planes and ships. We do not depend on government to tell us what is safe and what is not. That isn?t their job and we wouldn?t trust government to do it right anyway. Government has a vested interest: it wants to keep the economy at a rolling boil. Never take advice from someone trying to sell you something. The US government is always trying to sell you something. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 14:21:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 10:21:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 9:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *I was taking the ratio of confirmed cases to the number of people > tested. Using that, the USA still looks good. * > 401 confirmed cases out of 1895 people tested works out to one case per 4.7 people, and this is just the start of the epidemic. The USA has a population of 328 million and the virus has a very slow incubation period so for all we know 70 million people could already be infected, but we *don't know* because an idiot is leading the country and only 1895 people out of 328 million have been tested. > * > North Korea has 1.8 times as many positives per prole tested.* > Huh? North Korea is a Black Hole, nobody knows how many people have been infected or have died there but it's likely to be much higher than South Korea because the ruler of that totalitarian country cares as little about his people as our own dear leader does. > *The US doesn?t make these virus testing kits much.* > No country made such kits 2 months ago but some things change and some things don't, some national leaders had the brains and the desire to make it a top priority to dramatically ramp up production of the kits, and some leaders did not. *> That lack of capacity has little to do with leadership. It has to do > with tax structures, labor laws and environmental regulations* > Oh for heaven's sake Spike! Not everything is political and the virus is not a liberal Democrat, I'm talking about basic leadership competence and its possible relationship to my personal survival. For 3 years I've been dreading the day the creature who lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue would have to face a real crisis, and it looks like that day has come. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 14:51:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 07:51:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 9:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? I was taking the ratio of confirmed cases to the number of people tested. Using that, the USA still looks good. >?401 confirmed cases out of 1895 people tested works out to one case per 4.7 people, and this is just the start of the epidemic. The USA has a population of 328 million and the virus has a very slow incubation period so for all we know 70 million people could already be infected, but we don't know because an idiot is leading the country and only 1895 people out of 328 million have been tested? The leader of the country isn?t why only 1895 were tested in the USA. That low number was because we don?t have enough testing kits. We don?t have enough testing kits because we do not manufacture that stuff here, which has to do with tax structures, FDA requirements and standards, environmental regulations and labor laws. None of that has to do with scientists or POTUS. Congress controls that stuff. >> North Korea has 1.8 times as many positives per prole tested. >?Huh? North Korea is a Black Hole, nobody knows how many people have been infected? Ooops I meant South Korea. South Korea has about 1.8 times the infection rate per person tested, using the numbers you put up. South Korea is better set up to manufacture these kits than the USA: the SK government is more manufacturing-friendly and is waaaay more medical-device friendly. >?No country made such kits 2 months ago but some things change and some things don't, some national leaders had the brains and the desire to make it a top priority to dramatically ramp up production of the kits, and some leaders did not? John K Clark Priorities don?t matter if the factories are not here or do not comply with FDA regulations. The manufacture of these kits fall under the body of law which governs medical instruments and devices. The US system is absurdly expensive to do anything with medical stuff. It practically demands it all be outsourced, because our system is too expensive for that. Note FitBit?s experience, and 23&Me. Under the FDA, we can see a time when all medical devices and drugs will be outsourced, because it is too expensive to make here. Congress makes those laws regarding standards on medical devices, not POTUS. We can imagine if a cryonics patient is somehow brought back, then the procedure for preservation would fall under FDA regulations, being a medical procedure rather than a form of interment of remains. It would suddenly require stacks of licenses and the price would increase tenfold. Regarding lack of test kits, what I see here is a determination to never let a good crisis go to waste. John, here?s an interesting question for you which is more to the point and isn?t political: if you could get a test kit manufactured in USA with an error rate of 1 in 1000, or one manufactured in South Korea with an error rate of 1 in 100, but the US-made kit was ten times the price, which one would you buy? Me too. spike spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 15:17:47 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 11:17:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 10:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Priorities don?t matter if the factories are not here * The USA has more biotech companies and biotech patents and biotech treatments than any other country in the world, and it spends 8 times as much money on biotech R&D than France, the second largest spender. But it doesn't matter how powerful the engine on the Titanic is if the helmsman is an imbecile > *or do not comply with FDA regulations.* And what branch of government runs the FDA? The Executive Branch. And who runs the Executive Branch? Our dear leader. And now I want to ask you something, would you have this same forgiving attitude toward incompetence and gross mistakes if Obama or Hillary Clinton had made them? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 15:26:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 10:26:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You know? I am quite certain that it didn't rain so much down here when Obama was president. bill w On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 10:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Priorities don?t matter if the factories are not here * > > > The USA has more biotech companies and biotech patents and biotech > treatments than any other country in the world, and it spends 8 times as > much money on biotech R&D than France, the second largest spender. But it > doesn't matter how powerful the engine on the Titanic is if the helmsman is > an imbecile > > > *or do not comply with FDA regulations.* > > > And what branch of government runs the FDA? The Executive Branch. And who > runs the Executive Branch? Our dear leader. > > And now I want to ask you something, would you have this same forgiving > attitude toward incompetence and gross mistakes if Obama or Hillary > Clinton had made them? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 15:42:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 08:42:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >> or do not comply with FDA regulations. >?And what branch of government runs the FDA? The Executive Branch. And who runs the Executive Branch? Our dear leader? John I don?t think you are advocating that FDA rules be set aside. Even if they were, the manufacturing of medical stuff in the USA isn?t set up for high volume. It isn?t at all clear to me that POTUS could set aside FDA regulations, and even if he did, that would be advisable. Our system is set up the way it is for a reason. >?And now I want to ask you something, would you have this same forgiving attitude toward incompetence and gross mistakes if Obama or Hillary Clinton had made them? John K Clark Who is that? Never heard of them. Oh wait, a long time ago, sure. I am not forgiving any gross mistakes: the USA has different standards for medical stuff than other countries. We choose that. Of course it drives up prices. Do explain what gross mistake is that. But this really isn?t about politics: it was just an excuse to play still more politics. Never let a good crisis go to waste. Do let us drill down a bit, shall we? Suppose we have covid test kits manufactured to different standards with regard to error rate. The lower error rate kits cost more (a lot more) and are in shorter supply (because wealthier people opt for them (and because the manufacturer of the higher-priced kits are set up for lower volume.)) Suppose the higher error-rate kits are made in high volume in South Korea or China and the expensive lower error kits made in USA. How do we choose which kind of kit to buy? But wait, there?s more. There are two kinds of errors: false negatives and false positives. Each has their own numbers. US medical instruments are generally geared toward preventing the false negative, for those are really bad news. False positive? Eh, the hapless victim fills out her will, begs forgiveness of her sins to her favorite deity, misses some work or school, not that big a deal. False negative: that endangers the community. So now this whole question becomes very complicated. The US government cannot dictate into existence high-volume manufacturing and no one would invest in it even if it did: the US government has been at war with itself for years, and there is no indication of a truce anywhere in the immediately foreseeable. Any investor knows that putting money into manufacturing covid test kits is a shot in the dark. Would you invest in that? Neither would I. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 15:55:39 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 08:55:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sociology Message-ID: Spike wrote: > Keith, I found the whole episode very interesting because of the fallout. > The sociology department had spoken of ethical experimentation, but it wasn't until after the students were not only the test subjects themselves, they were unwitting test subjects. With recorded footage of themselves doing the boob maneuver, they were PISSED! >From an EP standpoint, none of this would be unexpected. People without interest in the opposite sex don't usually contribute genes to the next generation. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 15:57:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 08:57:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003001d5f562$39118fb0$ab34af10$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?Suppose we have covid test kits manufactured to different standards with regard to error rate. The lower error rate kits cost more (a lot more) and are in shorter supply (because wealthier people opt for them (and because the manufacturer of the higher-priced kits are set up for lower volume.)) Suppose the higher error-rate kits are made in high volume in South Korea or China and the expensive lower error kits made in USA. How do we choose which kind of kit to buy? spike This turns into a really cool math model. We can figure out what is the break-even point, what price-factor we would pay in order to get a lower error rate kit, assuming both kinds are available. But wait, there?s more. Suppose next week there are Chinese kits available, South Korean kits, test kits made in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Mexico, New York, London, Paris, Madrid, Capetown, Tehran, and several other kits where you don?t know where they were made or by whom, all made to different standards and tolerances, all at different prices. Now suppose the US government gives up on even trying to evaluate those kits for reliability, because it is an emergency dontchaknow, so in an emergency you do with what you have, and screw the regulations. These test kits become like the vitamin industry: mostly unregulated because there is no practical means of regulating it. But some of these kits might be counterfeit, cheapy fakes that return negative always, perhaps manufactured by some bad actor who realizes she can screw the USA and make a buttload of money at the same time. These covid-carriers get their false negative, go out and infect others, the infidel capitalists perish, double score. OK, now what is the right move? I am not talking about government, for I don?t see what they can do really and that is a different question. In our times, anything the government does or does not do is wrong by definition in this case, so there is no point in even asking that question. I am asking what do you do. How much more do you pay for what you think might be a better more-accurate kit? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 16:35:45 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 16:35:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <003001d5f562$39118fb0$ab34af10$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003001d5f562$39118fb0$ab34af10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Mar 2020 at 16:06, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > OK, now what is the right move? I am not talking about government, > for I don?t see what they can do really and that is a different question. > In our times, anything the government does or does not do is wrong > by definition in this case, so there is no point in even asking that question. > I am asking what do you do. How much more do you pay for what > you think might be a better more-accurate kit? > The basic problem for the USA is that health and medicine are run by for-profit corporations. (As is the government as well, of course) ;) This leads to less than optimal results for most of the population. The USA health system is the most expensive in the world and produces a less healthy population - partly because many people cannot afford the health insurance premiums and the extras not covered by the policy. Many just don't get adequate health treatment. Medicines are much more expensive than in other countries. Even when manufactured cheaply in India and China the corporations mark up the price to customers by huge margins. Vaccines cost a huge amount to develop and the corporations are very reluctant to do this as they will never recover the cost. Preventive medicine reduces their future profits. As one said - There is very little profit in curing diseases. What we want is illnesses which need continuous expensive medicines and treatments. And that is exactly what the USA has got. There is no point in blaming this bad situation on any particular president. This has been building up for many years. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 16:49:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 11:49:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] sociology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From an EP standpoint, none of this would be unexpected. People without interest in the opposite sex don't usually contribute genes to the next generation. Keith This could mean that homosexuality should have died out long ago if it was strictly genetic, right? I have been pondering women's breasts (again) and have always wondered why we have such an obsession with them. (Freud thought that it was because we got weaned too early and developed a fixation on them - nah). Could EP explain that this is Nature's way of pointing men at the right sex objects for making babies? bill w On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 10:57 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike wrote: > > > Keith, I found the whole episode very interesting because of the fallout. > > > The sociology department had spoken of ethical experimentation, but it > wasn't until after the students were not only the test subjects themselves, > they were unwitting test subjects. With recorded footage of themselves > doing the boob maneuver, they were PISSED! > > From an EP standpoint, none of this would be unexpected. People > without interest in the opposite sex don't usually contribute genes to > the next generation. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 16:55:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 09:55:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003001d5f562$39118fb0$ab34af10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301d5f56a$6b5cf3d0$4216db70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid On Sun, 8 Mar 2020 at 16:06, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >>... OK, now what is the right move? I am not talking about government, > for I don?t see what they can do really and that is a different question...How much more do you pay for what you > think might be a better more-accurate kit? > >...The basic problem for the USA is that health and medicine are run by for-profit corporations. (As is the government as well, of course) ;) ... >...There is no point in blaming this bad situation on any particular president. This has been building up for many years. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, I would go along with the notion, but for the alternative being worse. The US government has been living on borrowed money for decades and is nowhere close to paying for what it is already trying to do. Add to that the current situation where the US government is at war with itself with peace nowhere in sight. We are thankful for a for-profit medical system, as opposed to the alternative, which is probably none at all. As we have discovered, of course there is way too much money in politics, and there is no known way to counter that. If we try to put limits on campaign donations, it doesn't stop billionaires from spending their own money on their own campaigns: our first amendment allows them to buy ads for anything they want, including promoting their own political interests. There is no stopping that by any means. A recent good example: a US candidate spent half a billion dollars on his own campaign. We are told he could have given each man, woman and child in America a million dollars and still had lunch money left over. {8^D Assuming the US Fed cannot help in this situation, I am pondering what happens when we have all these covid test kits available, varying prices, unknown error rates, counterfeits everywhere (Amazon.com can't tell the difference either (I bought some products just last week which are probably counterfeit.)) This situation could become a hell of a lot worse than it already is. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 17:07:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 10:07:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sociology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005e01d5f56c$19797140$4c6c53c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] sociology >>?From an EP standpoint, none of this would be unexpected. People without interest in the opposite sex don't usually contribute genes to the next generation. Keith >?This could mean that homosexuality should have died out long ago if it was strictly genetic, right? I have been pondering women's breasts (again) and have always wondered why we have such an obsession with them. (Freud thought that it was because we got weaned too early and developed a fixation on them - nah). Could EP explain that this is Nature's way of pointing men at the right sex objects for making babies? bill w BillW, all indications of fertility have been soft-wired into our brains by evolution to appear sexy. Our sexual orientations have to be somehow coded into our genetic make-up. It is somehow instinct, just as my neighbor?s sheepdog (who has never seen a sheep) got a puzzled look on his face when he sniffed my wool pants. His instincts were telling him: herd that. Been there, herd that. The songs of distant ancestors were calling to him. The poor lad, I have never seen such a confused pup. {8^D I sure don?t recall having learned heterosexuality from anyone, or anyone teaching me that boobs are attractive. They just are. I don?t recall a sign-up sheet coming around for hetero. The instinct view causes me to be sympathetic with gays: somehow their instincts must be coded into their DNA just as mine were 9 months before I was born. Evolutionary psychology explains why homosexuality persists: it can be genetic but not expressed, and it can benefit the community. It can benefit the siblings. Reasoning: woman feels more at ease with gay man, hangs out with him, meets his straight brothers, gay man gets nieces and nephews. Or more specifically: gay men do reproduce. For reasons I have never understood, gay men seem to be very popular with straight women. Feeling of safety perhaps? Easy enough to envision they will go along with her wishes and breed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 17:29:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 10:29:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <005301d5f56a$6b5cf3d0$4216db70$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003001d5f562$39118fb0$ab34af10$@rainier66.com> <005301d5f56a$6b5cf3d0$4216db70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000701d5f56f$1eeea930$5ccbfb90$@rainier66.com> A continuation of our notion of Gaia saved by a virus: the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases suggests not flying or cruising. When I was travelling for business, I was the one who kept insisting we could be doing a lot of that business on the video conferencing and not need to fly across the country. I was surprised it was an unpopular suggestion. It is easy enough to imagine that covid risk could force or compell that solution on a lotta companies, which would serve as a motive to get their video conferencing facilities up to speed and demonstrate there is a better way to do things. Working from the local office is so much more efficient. When I was flying across the country, it was the functional equivalent of two travel days for one office day. My hours were one for the price of three. Planes are expensive and risky. Phones are cheap and safe. Phones are my friends. My fond hope is that a benefit from covid is that companies are dragged kicking and screaming to greater efficiency. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 18:04:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 14:04:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Suppose the higher error-rate kits are made in high volume in South > Korea or China and the expensive lower error kits made in USA. How do we > choose which kind of kit to buy? * I don't know where you got the idea that foreign test kits are inferior to the domestic type, the CDC sent out thousands of kits but they blunderd, the kits had such a high false positive rate they were worse than useless and had to be recalled, so they to had to start from scratch and as a result the USA lost over a month of priceless time. Meanwhile the World Health Organization had a test kit that worked just fine but the administration insisted on using a domestic one. I know of no regulation that would prevent the CDC from using the WHO test kits they just didn't want to, I guess they thought it would hurt their pride. > > *John I don?t think you are advocating that FDA rules be set aside. * > I don't even know what specific rules you're talking about. I do know that after the Ebola outbreak Barack Obama built a elaborate pandemic response structure within the WHO to deal with the exact sort of thing we're facing right now, but it will be of no help because a self described "Very Stable Genius" dismantled it early last year to save money. > > *Even if they were, the manufacturing of medical stuff in the USA isn?t > set up for high volume.* > As I said, 2 months ago nobody was set up to make those kits in high volume but some executives have the ability to change the way things get done if they think it's important, and some executives don't. > *It isn?t at all clear to me that POTUS could set aside FDA regulations,* > It's certainly clear to POTUS, he's publicly said "I can do anything I want". > > *> The US government cannot dictate into existence high-volume > manufacturing* > Of course it can! In January it could have offered to buy 10 million kits if they could be delivered within a month and thanks to the free market somebody in this country or some other country would have provided it. And I've got to say the contortions you're going through to assign no blame to the current administration for the way they're handling this crisis is painful to behold. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 21:01:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 14:01:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> John it isn?t the federal government?s job to get test kits for everyone. The reason I don?t want to see the USA get into that situation is the US government is bankrupt. It has been operating under chapter 11 for decades, and there is no end in sight. It doesn?t matter who is where, or even what happens next, for none of the current candidates for anything of significance is even talking about balancing the budget. Eventually politicians will realize as long as more credit is available, they can keep cutting taxes and borrowing more. We can all see how that will end. Consequence: the faster we can remove duties from the Federal government the better. On the other hand, states can raise as much money as they need. They can tax assets as well as income, as California already does. So? don?t rely on the fed. Rely on the states. Our California governor didn?t buy a million kits either. Regarding my idea that foreign kits are inferior: not necessarily. But they didn?t pass our government bureaucracy?s testing procedure. So we can?t know if they are inferior until they do that. But if they do that, they are as expensive as ours, or more so. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 21:11:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 14:11:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004d01d5f58e$25d058b0$71710a10$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ubject: RE: [ExI] perspective on covid >?John it isn?t the federal government?s job to get test kits for everyone?spike In addition to that, there?s something I see and hear way too much: a focus on one office that is so intense, far too many Americans have convinced themselves that as soon as this current POTUS is gone (can?t recall his name at the moment) then all our problems will be over. So? what if they aren?t? What if the next guy causes even more severe problems? And what if there is no real alternative because interest rates go back up and the budget once used for all manner of things now must go to paying interest on what we already devoured? If we fail to balance the Federal budget, trouble will result. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 22:43:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 18:43:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 5:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John it isn?t the federal government?s job to get test kits for > everyone.* > It's the federal government?s job to keep the American people safe from foreign invaders, the invaders were smaller than Mexicans but far more numerous and far *FAR* more deadly, > > *The reason I don?t want to see the USA get into that situation is the > US government is bankrupt. * > Good god, at a time like this you're still worried about a trivial issue like the budget deficit? > > *It has been operating under chapter 11 for decades, and there is no > end in sight. * > No not for decades but (except for 4 years) for neatly 2 CENTURIES the government has been "operating under chapter 11", and yet here we are with the strongest economy in the world. Do you really think that if faced with a devastating epidemic raging through his country, except for Bill Clinton in his last 4 years, every president in history should have just kept his hands in his pockets and done nothing? Somehow I think if this thing had hit 5 years ago you might be saying something slightly different about presidential actions or the lack of them. * > none of the current candidates for anything of significance is even > talking about balancing the budget.* > And that includes Republicans, that's because for some unknown reason budget deficits only become existential threats during Democratic administrations. By the way, the news just broke that a man infected with COVID-19 virus attended a mass rally of the American Conservative Union on February 23, both Donald Trump and Vice Poodle Mike Pence were there. That's the meeting where Trump kissed and dry humped an American flag onstage. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 8 23:07:05 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 23:07:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Fermi Paradox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/03/2020 20:42, Robert G. Kennedy wrote: >> If a shell of dense rock was constructed, and a civilisation located at >> the centre (uploads in some nano-structured substrate, say), how thick >> would the rock need to be? Can anyone do the maths on this? > .??????????????????????????? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Yep.? We did. > > Roy, Kenneth I., Robert G. Kennedy, and David E. Fields. 2009. "Shell > Worlds: An Approach to Terraforming Moons, Small Planets, and > Plutoids." Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, volume 61, > number 1, pages 32-38. January 8, 2009. > > Roy, Kenneth I., Kennedy, Robert G., and David E. Fields. 2013. "Shell > Worlds". Acta Astronautica, volume 82, issue 2, February 2013, pages > 238-245. Available online 2 October 2012, ISSN 0094-5765, doi:? > 10.1016/j.actaastro.2012.08.034. Keywords: megastructures; space > colonization-industrialization; circumstellar habitable zones; > terraforming; extraterrestrial resources; SETI. > > Roy, Kenneth I., Robert G. Kennedy, and David E. Fields. 2013. > "Colonizing the Plutoids: The Key to Human Expansion into the Galaxy", > Tennessee Valley Interstellar Workshop 2013 Special Issue of Journal > of the British Interplanetary Society, volume 66, no. 10-11, Oct/Nov > 2013. > > Roy, Kenneth I., Kennedy, Robert G., and David E. Fields. 2013. "Shell > Worlds: The Question of Shell Stability and Other Issues", Journal of > the British Interplanetary Society, volume 67, no. 10, Oct 2014, > pp.364-368. I think that's a different concept, as far as I can tell (any links to the above? or conclusions about the thickness of rock needed to shield delicate biological tissue or electronics from supernovae?) The 'Shell World' concept seems to be to build a roof over an existing small planet. A roof to keep in atmosphere and keep out normal levels of solar and cosmic radiation would be far thinner than one needed to shield against constant and very high levels of radiation (high enough to sterilise entire biospheres from many light-years away). I was thinking more of something like a hollowed-out asteroid, where the hollow interior is small compared to the entire volume of rock. As this is a far-future (I hope!) scenario, I wouldn't worry about things like gravity or simulations of gravity, maintaining high biodiversity, etc. I would expect that sapient beings would probably all be uploads or otherwise non-biological anyway. The thing I don't know, is just how much radiation the shielding would need to deal with, and how thick the rock would have to be. The Greg Egan story I referred to ('Diaspora', available to read online at: https://bookfrom.net/greg-egan/55803-diaspora.html) has the catastrophic event as something that I assume is not reailstic (some unknown aspect of physics allowing the centre of the galaxy to collapse, spawning a big-bang-type event that releases enough energy that even atomic nuclei wouldn't survive, anywhere in the galaxy), but the type of thing that John Clark referred to is worrying enough, and real. The kinds of civilisation that have been discussed on this list in the past (Dyson swarms, Jupiter brains, etc.) would seem to be very vulnerable to extreme high-radiation events. It would be carnage on a scale to dwarf anything this little planet has ever seen, or ever could. Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 8 23:14:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 16:14:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >> The reason I don?t want to see the USA get into that situation is the US government is bankrupt. >?Good god, at a time like this you're still worried about a trivial issue like the budget deficit? Better evolution, yes. At a time like always I am worried about a trivial issue like that. > It has been operating under chapter 11 for decades, and there is no end in sight. >?No not for decades but (except for 4 years) for neatly 2 CENTURIES the government has been "operating under chapter 11", and yet here we are with the strongest economy in the world. Do you really think that if faced with a devastating epidemic raging through his country, except for Bill Clinton in his last 4 years, every president in history should have just kept his hands in his pockets and done nothing? Somehow I think if this thing had hit 5 years ago you might be saying something slightly different about presidential actions or the lack of them? I don?t recall ever saying anything about presidential actions or lack of them. This isn?t the forum for that. If you were to search, it would be easy to find places where that kind of trivia is discussed. > none of the current candidates for anything of significance is even talking about balancing the budget. And that includes Republicans, that's because for some unknown reason budget deficits only become existential threats during Democratic administrations? Unless of course one is Libertarian, in which case they are always existential threats, regardless of administrations. >?By the way, the news just broke that a man infected with COVID-19 virus attended a mass rally of the American Conservative Union on February 23, both Donald Trump and Vice Poodle Mike Pence were there. That's the meeting where Trump kissed and dry humped an American flag onstage. John K Clark How can we know for sure it was dry? Don?t rely on the federal government John. They aren?t there to help you or me. They are there to help themselves. Every party is that way. Everyone who aspires to national leadership is that way. Take precautions, minimize contact with crowds, use common sense. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 00:03:50 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 20:03:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] sociology In-Reply-To: <005e01d5f56c$19797140$4c6c53c0$@rainier66.com> References: <005e01d5f56c$19797140$4c6c53c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020, 1:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > specifically: gay men do reproduce. For reasons I have never understood, > gay men seem to be very popular with straight women. Feeling of safety > perhaps? Easy enough to envision they > As far as genes are concerned the gay men who do produce offspring could be viewed (as you have labelled bonobos) as "sneaky fuckers" and as far as genes are concerned, sucessfully so. Though sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and higher level preference that does not interfere with lower level requisites are just personal non-contributing behavior. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 05:07:41 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 00:07:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] sociology In-Reply-To: References: <005e01d5f56c$19797140$4c6c53c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <75BE3F91-55C8-4EB2-9DF8-89888FD8E84E@gmail.com> Thought experiment: Suppose traditional societies developed around the social expectation of marriage for all adults. Gay men are gay but are expected to take wives and father children. Wife is relieved because she doesn?t want to deal with the ?incessant? demands of a man she doesn?t particularly care for. Love marriage is a relatively new concept. When it was introduced it was considered to herald the end of marriage, which seems to have been true. So traditional societies that place extreme value on heterosexual marriage and the creation of multiple offspring seems to negate selection pressures that would ?weed-out? homosexuality. SR Ballard > On Mar 8, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020, 1:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> specifically: gay men do reproduce. For reasons I have never understood, gay men seem to be very popular with straight women. Feeling of safety perhaps? Easy enough to envision they >> > > As far as genes are concerned the gay men who do produce offspring could be viewed (as you have labelled bonobos) as "sneaky fuckers" and as far as genes are concerned, sucessfully so. > > Though sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and higher level preference that does not interfere with lower level requisites are just personal non-contributing behavior. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 10:12:04 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:12:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 7:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If we fail to balance the Federal budget, trouble will result.* The Scientific Method says regardless of how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts then it must be rejected, and your theory concerning the budget deficit of the USA just doesn't fit the historic facts. I don't even understand why we're talking about this now when there is something far more urgent staring us in the face that could effect every member of this list, and not abstractly in the far future but personally and in less than a year; I certainly hope that won't happen and maybe it won't, but today we should act as if it will. >> for some unknown reason budget deficits only become existential threats >> during Democratic administrations? > > > *Unless of course one is Libertarian, in which case they are always > existential threats, * It's not very existential if 2 centuries (minus the Clinton years) of government deficits haven't managed to wipe libertarians out of existence. > *I don?t recall ever saying anything about presidential actions or lack > of them. This isn?t the forum for that. * > Spike, I don't see how anyone can meaningfully discuss the current pandemic and its possible future, or any other existential threat for that matter, without also mentioning the most powerful man in the world's actions regarding it. As a libertarian it's OK to lament the fact that one man should have such immense power, but such lamentations in no way change the reality that the man does in fact have that immense power. Being libertarian doesn't mean being unable to recognize the fact that the world they live in and must deal with may not fit all their libertarian ideals. > > *Don?t rely on the federal government John. * > It's not a question of relying on something its just facing reality. Like it or not the federal government is not going to fade away in the next year, no way no how, and thus government actions or lack of actions will have a huge impact on how fast this epidemic spreads and how likely you or somebody you love will die of it in the next year. And after a year or 18 months if we're lucky we may have a vaccine. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 12:28:11 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 08:28:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] sad fact of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 6:45 PM William Flynn Wallace < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In a poll, 82% of the people thought that foods genetically engineered > should have warning labels. > In the same poll 80% of the people thought that foods containing DNA > should have a warning label. > I worry that my food may contain Dihydrogen Monoxide, it's a major component of acid rain, it can burn the skin, and if ingested into the lungs can kill. Dihydrogen Monoxide - The Truth John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 12:51:52 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 07:51:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] sad fact of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <121A4E3E-4BF8-4C4A-A5E9-DEEBDE8B5123@gmail.com> I am excited about the future of food containing dihydrogen monoxide. Did you know that the FDA already requires it to be listed on ingredient labels? :) SR Ballard > On Mar 9, 2020, at 7:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 6:45 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >> > In a poll, 82% of the people thought that foods genetically engineered should have warning labels. >> In the same poll 80% of the people thought that foods containing DNA should have a warning label. > > I worry that my food may contain Dihydrogen Monoxide, it's a major component of acid rain, it can burn the skin, and if ingested into the lungs can kill. > > Dihydrogen Monoxide - The Truth > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 9 13:50:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:50:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006c01d5f619$bbf81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?It's not very existential if 2 centuries (minus the Clinton years) of government deficits haven't managed to wipe libertarians out of existence? John this is a unique time in American history. We are borrowing like mad just to cover normal expenses. Interest rates are at unprecedented low levels. US government debt is setting new records every day as a fraction of GDP. The US is living on borrowed money. Eventually interest rates will go back up. When they do, more and more of the federal budget must be gobbled up just to service that debt, and of course to borrow more, for a generation has passed since the government knew how to live on its own income. >>? I don?t recall ever saying anything about presidential actions or lack of them. This isn?t the forum for that. >?Spike, I don't see how anyone can meaningfully discuss the current pandemic and its possible future, or any other existential threat for that matter, without also mentioning the most powerful man in the world's actions regarding it? We are fooling ourselves if we think POTUS is the most powerful man on earth. There are so many restrictions now on what POTUS can do, hell he can?t even negotiate internationally anymore. The next one will have it even worse. >?As a libertarian it's OK to lament the fact that one man should have such immense power, but such lamentations in no way change the reality that the man does in fact have that immense power? The action POTUS has is to close borders and restrict international travel. That one damages the economy, which is why it hasn?t been used. The US was once the world leader in science and manufacturing, but isn?t now. Most manufacturing has been outsourced. There are good scientists in every country in the world. I don?t expect the solution to covid to come from the US. >?It's not a question of relying on something its just facing reality. Like it or not the federal government is not going to fade away in the next year? John K Clark The US government has already faded away to a great extent. Its importance as a military ally peaked in about 2003 and I don?t see anything changing that trend. The recent lesson demonstrated to the world that they cannot negotiate with POTUS on the phone: it is a government at war with itself and he has an unknown number of his adversaries on the line. Governments rely on secrecy in negotiations. If any meaningful negotiations take place with the US, it has to be in English, in person with no translators present (for some of them are adversaries of POTUS as well.) This situation will not change in the foreseeable. Where I see this developing: a vaccine for covid will likely be found by the Chinese. We will buy it from them, going around our own standards for medical technology. New viruses like this one will evolve on a regular basis, for a good reason: humans are the ideal host. We are the only species that jets around the world regularly, giving the virus the ideal universal vectors to everywhere. We care for our victims, which causes the host to survive and transmit. How I see the endgame: most international travel will be severely restricted every time a new virus is detected. We will find better ways to communicate which does not involve travel. This will have a negative impact on all economies of course, but it has its benefits as well. Environmental impact of humans would decrease. We can still have international trade but with less international travel. We could have a very practical and in some ways beneficial reduction in international pleasure travel. Watch the ocean cruise industry in the next few months. Increasing awareness that those are floating incubators for disease has already devastated the industry. Stay tuned, focus. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 14:57:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 10:57:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <006c01d5f619$bbf81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <006c01d5f619$bbf81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 9:53 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrot *> We are borrowing like mad just to cover normal expenses. Interest rates > are at unprecedented low levels. US government debt is setting new records > every day as a fraction of GDP. The US is living on borrowed money. * > All that is true, but if you're theory is correct then one of those 4 sentences does not belong with the other 3, namely "Interest rates are at unprecedented low levels". I must therefore conclude that your theory about deficit spending is not correct. You didn't mention it but we also have a very low inflation rate, and that fact is also not compatible with your theory. > *We are fooling ourselves if we think POTUS is the most powerful man on > earth. * > Well... I sure can't think of any man more powerful. *> There are so many restrictions now on what POTUS can do,* > But not *NEARLY* enough! > * > hell he can?t even negotiate internationally anymore.* > Shure he can, he can even negotiate a trade with a foreign government of military equipment paid for by taxpayers for a public statement that his political opponent is being investigated, and the foreign government doesn't even need to actually do an investigation, all they need to do is issue a public statement that they are. *> The next one will have it even worse.* > Worse? POTUS got away with it, and no doubt Donald Junior will get away with it too after daddy dies and he inherits the crown. *> The US was once the world leader in science and manufacturing, but isn?t > now. * Gee I wonder why. Trump?s 2021 budget drowns science agencies in red ink, again Trump once again requests deep cuts in U.S. science spending John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 9 15:34:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 08:34:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <006c01d5f619$bbf81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 9:53 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrot >>? We are borrowing like mad just to cover normal expenses. Interest rates are at unprecedented low levels. US government debt is setting new records every day as a fraction of GDP. The US is living on borrowed money. >?All that is true, but if you're theory is correct then one of those 4 sentences does not belong with the other 3, namely "Interest rates are at unprecedented low levels". I must therefore conclude that your theory about deficit spending is not correct. You didn't mention it but we also have a very low inflation rate, and that fact is also not compatible with your theory? On the contrary. Low interest rates seduce the US government into borrowing more and more money. In addition, plenty of homeowners have borrowed money against their homes at low interest rates, hoping to invest in the stock market with their equity. This sets up a ticking time-bomb. As interest rise (no one believes they will stay at 1% forever) the debtors will be unable to service their own debts. The US government will be unable to raise enough revenue to continue borrowing, upon which it has grown dependent. Government services will be cut drastically, rather than gradually as we are now seeing. The option remains to raise taxes, but that is politically unpopular and depresses the economy. So we really bank on that. If one borrows heavily during low interest times and invests in some high-value asset, to sell later and pay back with cheaper dollars, I can see that philosophy (it worked so well for so many real estate investors.) But if one borrows heavily and does not have high-value assets afterwards, such as the US government, all it manages to do is lose its ability to live on its own revenue. >> There are so many restrictions now on what POTUS can do, >?But not NEARLY enough! Don?t worry John. This trend toward reduction in US government power is irreversible. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 16:50:16 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:50:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <005301d5f56a$6b5cf3d0$4216db70$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003001d5f562$39118fb0$ab34af10$@rainier66.com> <005301d5f56a$6b5cf3d0$4216db70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 1:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > As we have discovered, of course there is way too much money in politics, > and there is no known way to counter that. > The obvious way to get money out of politics is to make the government smaller and weaker. It's power that attracts the money. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 16:54:48 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 17:54:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] sad fact of the day In-Reply-To: <121A4E3E-4BF8-4C4A-A5E9-DEEBDE8B5123@gmail.com> References: <121A4E3E-4BF8-4C4A-A5E9-DEEBDE8B5123@gmail.com> Message-ID: Indeed, and you can even get Swedish people excited about it. O tempora, o scientia. /Henrik Den m?n 9 mars 2020 13:54SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > I am excited about the future of food containing dihydrogen monoxide. Did > you know that the FDA already requires it to be listed on ingredient labels? > > :) > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 9, 2020, at 7:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 6:45 PM William Flynn Wallace < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > In a poll, 82% of the people thought that foods genetically engineered >> should have warning labels. >> In the same poll 80% of the people thought that foods containing DNA >> should have a warning label. >> > > I worry that my food may contain Dihydrogen Monoxide, it's a major > component of acid rain, it can burn the skin, and if ingested into the > lungs can kill. > > Dihydrogen Monoxide - The Truth > > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 17:21:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:21:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] sad fact of the day In-Reply-To: <121A4E3E-4BF8-4C4A-A5E9-DEEBDE8B5123@gmail.com> References: <121A4E3E-4BF8-4C4A-A5E9-DEEBDE8B5123@gmail.com> Message-ID: That didn't used to be the case. My uncle was head of a legislature committee called the LIttle Hoover Commission. It investigated all sorts of things. One was water. My uncle showed me that if you put a slice of ham into a skillet it would soon fill halfway up with liquids. This was before a mandate on labeling dded liquids to meats got passed. Try to find a turkey without it. bill w On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 7:53 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am excited about the future of food containing dihydrogen monoxide. Did > you know that the FDA already requires it to be listed on ingredient labels? > > :) > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 9, 2020, at 7:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 6:45 PM William Flynn Wallace < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > In a poll, 82% of the people thought that foods genetically engineered >> should have warning labels. >> In the same poll 80% of the people thought that foods containing DNA >> should have a warning label. >> > > I worry that my food may contain Dihydrogen Monoxide, it's a major > component of acid rain, it can burn the skin, and if ingested into the > lungs can kill. > > Dihydrogen Monoxide - The Truth > > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 17:25:03 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 13:25:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] sad fact of the day In-Reply-To: References: <121A4E3E-4BF8-4C4A-A5E9-DEEBDE8B5123@gmail.com> Message-ID: They're out there, mostly heritage birds, but be prepared to pay a ridiculous amount to skip the water/brine injection. On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Try to find a turkey without it. > > bill w > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 17:27:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:27:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003001d5f562$39118fb0$ab34af10$@rainier66.com> <005301d5f56a$6b5cf3d0$4216db70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The obvious way to get money out of politics is to make the government smaller and weaker. It's power that attracts the money. -Dave That is the mantra of the Mississippi legislature. Result: agencies lay off people; health care gets cut and cut; welfare gets cut and cut; try to get a driver's license; capitol city full of potholes; bridges and roads declared unsafe But they haven't raised taxes! But they should. They don't even fund laws they pass, and when they do they cut other agencies to do so. In addition to there being no fat in our budget, there's not much lean either. But getting business will take care of that! Nope - you have given them millions of dollars tax breaks to come here a provide a few hundreds jobs. I wonder if they know what happened in Kansas? bill w On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:52 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 1:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> As we have discovered, of course there is way too much money in politics, >> and there is no known way to counter that. >> > > The obvious way to get money out of politics is to make the government > smaller and weaker. It's power that attracts the money. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 17:32:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:32:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] sad fact of the day In-Reply-To: References: <121A4E3E-4BF8-4C4A-A5E9-DEEBDE8B5123@gmail.com> Message-ID: The best turkey I ever had was a fresh one I bought and brined myself. Also the worst turkey I ever had was a fresh one. bill w On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 12:31 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > They're out there, mostly heritage birds, but be prepared to pay a > ridiculous amount to skip the water/brine injection. > > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Try to find a turkey without it. >> >> bill w >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 18:05:44 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:05:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] sad fact of the day In-Reply-To: References: <121A4E3E-4BF8-4C4A-A5E9-DEEBDE8B5123@gmail.com> Message-ID: Since we're getting into turkeys, I no longer wet brine mine. I'm completely sold on the newer fad of dry brining them after spatchcocking. Spatchcocking results in the best cook I've ever gotten on a Thanksgiving bird because it allows the breast meat to cook at the same level as the thighs and legs. It's a bit of work on a large bird but easy on a 12-14lber. After that, you just liberally salt the skin all over and let it sit covered for 2 days, and then on the third day, let it air dry. You don't need to wash the salt off before cooking, and you'll get super crispy skin. If you haven't tried it, google spatchcock and dry brine and give it a shot! Great for chickens as well and much easier (spatchcocking involves removing the backbone which is a PITA on a 20lb bird!). On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The best turkey I ever had was a fresh one I bought and brined myself. > Also the worst turkey I ever had was a fresh one. > > bill w > > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 12:31 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> They're out there, mostly heritage birds, but be prepared to pay a >> ridiculous amount to skip the water/brine injection. >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Try to find a turkey without it. >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 18:39:48 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 13:39:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people Message-ID: You would think that being smarter would help one avoid the cognitive biases I have been harping on. Nope. In fact, we are worse than average people. We are better than average people in spotting these biases in other people, but worse in spotting them in ourselves. Because we're smart, right? We do thinking better. Wrong. People tend to fit new information into their belief system and often twist it to fit, so they don't have to change their mind. Smart people are better at this. Not good. The population consists of 90% credulous people and 10% contrarians (I made those figures up but give yourself a few days and you might forget I said that I made them up and you will treat them like facts). You know what happens when a newspaper prints a retraction a week later - no effect on believing what they printed before. So you hear that vaccines cause autism. So that becomes a belief. Beliefs are very hard to shake - see above for reasons. One psych study gave students a list of myths in psychology, such as using only 10% of our brains. The teacher during the semester addressed all of the myths and showed why there were wrong. At the end of the term, the students acted as if they never heard the contrary information and believed what they believed to start the semester. Discouraging, right? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 18:53:08 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:53:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <006c01d5f619$bbf81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Low interest rates seduce the US government into borrowing more and > more money. In addition, plenty of homeowners have borrowed money against > their homes at low interest rates, hoping to invest in the stock market > with their equity. This sets up a ticking time-bomb.* Low interest rates like we have now means there is a *HUGE* pile of money wanting to be loaned out and a much smaller pile of investors wanting to borrow money. And a small inflation rate like we have now means there are more machines that are making things that people want to buy than there are machines that are making dollar bills. Incidentally just today the price of West Texas Intermediate Crude Oil dropped by 22%, the largest one day drop in history. So it looks like inflation isn't going to be a big problem anytime soon but don't celebrate too much, inflation wasn't a big problem in 1929 either. Speaking of 1929, the market hasn't closed yet but as of right now the Dow Jones Industrial Average is down over 2100 points. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 20:06:16 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 15:06:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <006c01d5f619$bbf81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1559B330-E67B-4560-8933-5AB8343597A7@gmail.com> The drop in oil prices is going to be horrible for my local economy. :( The lack of undocumented workers was bad enough... SR Ballard > On Mar 9, 2020, at 1:53 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > Low interest rates seduce the US government into borrowing more and more money. In addition, plenty of homeowners have borrowed money against their homes at low interest rates, hoping to invest in the stock market with their equity. This sets up a ticking time-bomb. > > Low interest rates like we have now means there is a HUGE pile of money wanting to be loaned out and a much smaller pile of investors wanting to borrow money. And a small inflation rate like we have now means there are more machines that are making things that people want to buy than there are machines that are making dollar bills. Incidentally just today the price of West Texas Intermediate Crude Oil dropped by 22%, the largest one day drop in history. So it looks like inflation isn't going to be a big problem anytime soon but don't celebrate too much, inflation wasn't a big problem in 1929 either. Speaking of 1929, the market hasn't closed yet but as of right now the Dow Jones Industrial Average is down over 2100 points. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 20:14:58 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 13:14:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It takes a certain kind of smart to spot these biases in oneself. Part of that is simply a commitment to do so, out of an honest recognition that it simply works better (and thus, recognizing signs when it might be the case, versus when people are just trolling or deluded - including and especially, when the first source you hear of a major new topic from, has its facts wrong - out of delusion or malice - and there is nothing that warrants serious concern, just like you previously thought because you had not previously heard of the topic). On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You would think that being smarter would help one avoid the cognitive > biases I have been harping on. Nope. In fact, we are worse than average > people. > > We are better than average people in spotting these biases in other > people, but worse in spotting them in ourselves. Because we're smart, > right? We do thinking better. Wrong. > > People tend to fit new information into their belief system and often > twist it to fit, so they don't have to change their mind. Smart people are > better at this. Not good. > > The population consists of 90% credulous people and 10% contrarians (I > made those figures up but give yourself a few days and you might forget I > said that I made them up and you will treat them like facts). You know > what happens when a newspaper prints a retraction a week later - no effect > on believing what they printed before. > > So you hear that vaccines cause autism. So that becomes a belief. > Beliefs are very hard to shake - see above for reasons. One psych study > gave students a list of myths in psychology, such as using only 10% of our > brains. The teacher during the semester addressed all of the myths and > showed why there were wrong. At the end of the term, the students acted as > if they never heard the contrary information and believed what they > believed to start the semester. Discouraging, right? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 22:34:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 17:34:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I watch a lot of tennis and see players hit the ball down the line where the net is higher and more often than they would hit the net if they played it up the middle, they hit the net. Why? I think it's because they are using the same stroke for both shots. What I think is needed in training is an alert system - "alert! high net" Say this to yourself when you do that and it primes you to change your stroke to aim the ball higher. What Adrian is talking about, I think, is what I do: "Alert. possible dissonance ahead." So when that alert goes off, I pay close attention to my own ideas and the contrary message. If I don't I may say later "Whoa, wait a minute. That's not what I think at all. Why didn't I ask a question?" If in a book I"ll put a ?? by it. bill w On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:18 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It takes a certain kind of smart to spot these biases in oneself. Part of > that is simply a commitment to do so, out of an honest recognition that it > simply works better (and thus, recognizing signs when it might be the case, > versus when people are just trolling or deluded - including and especially, > when the first source you hear of a major new topic from, has its facts > wrong - out of delusion or malice - and there is nothing that warrants > serious concern, just like you previously thought because you had not > previously heard of the topic). > > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> You would think that being smarter would help one avoid the cognitive >> biases I have been harping on. Nope. In fact, we are worse than average >> people. >> >> We are better than average people in spotting these biases in other >> people, but worse in spotting them in ourselves. Because we're smart, >> right? We do thinking better. Wrong. >> >> People tend to fit new information into their belief system and often >> twist it to fit, so they don't have to change their mind. Smart people are >> better at this. Not good. >> >> The population consists of 90% credulous people and 10% contrarians (I >> made those figures up but give yourself a few days and you might forget I >> said that I made them up and you will treat them like facts). You know >> what happens when a newspaper prints a retraction a week later - no effect >> on believing what they printed before. >> >> So you hear that vaccines cause autism. So that becomes a belief. >> Beliefs are very hard to shake - see above for reasons. One psych study >> gave students a list of myths in psychology, such as using only 10% of our >> brains. The teacher during the semester addressed all of the myths and >> showed why there were wrong. At the end of the term, the students acted as >> if they never heard the contrary information and believed what they >> believed to start the semester. Discouraging, right? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 08:35:55 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 01:35:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What Adrian is talking about, I think, is what I do: "Alert. > possible dissonance ahead." So when that alert goes off, I pay close > attention to my own ideas and the contrary message. If I don't I may say > later "Whoa, wait a minute. That's not what I think at all. Why didn't I > ask a question?" > If in a book I"ll put a ?? by it. > Close enough. One trick is knowing when to invoke that alert, because people can and will try to trigger it when it doesn't apply, for a variety of essentially malicious reasons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 13:41:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:41:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:18 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *It takes a certain kind of smart to spot these biases in oneself. Part > of that is simply a commitment to do so, out of an honest recognition that > it simply works better* > I do that but not because I'm more honest, it's just that I like to debate and I like to win. I have zero loyalty to ideas and I'm lazy, so if I notice that my opponent's position is easier to defend than my own I don't fight it, I just drop my previous position and claim the new one as my own. I'm also not afraid of stealing better ideas from other people. I've been doing this for years because as Picasso said "*good artists borrow, great artists steal*". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 14:12:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:12:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Adrian - please supply a few of the malicious reasons. bill w On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:38 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> What Adrian is talking about, I think, is what I do: "Alert. >> possible dissonance ahead." So when that alert goes off, I pay close >> attention to my own ideas and the contrary message. If I don't I may say >> later "Whoa, wait a minute. That's not what I think at all. Why didn't I >> ask a question?" >> If in a book I"ll put a ?? by it. >> > > Close enough. One trick is knowing when to invoke that alert, because > people can and will try to trigger it when it doesn't apply, for a variety > of essentially malicious reasons. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 10 14:28:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 07:28:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> Italy has taken the lead from South Korea in cases of corvid per prole. Sunday one of their local lads opined thus: ?Let us pray to the Lord also for our priests, that they may have the courage to go out and visit the sick... and to accompany the medical staff and volunteers in the work they do?? Pope Francis, 8 March 2020. Ok then. The priests visit the sick. Then they go visit the not sick. Repeat until dead. Sheesh. nation confirmed cases million proles cases per million times worse than USA China 80756 1,345 60.0 26 Italy 9172 60.49 151.6 66 Iran 8042 84 95.7 41 South Korea 7513 51.26 146.6 63 Spain 1622 46.8 34.7 15 France 1412 65.3 21.6 9 Germany 1281 83.8 15.3 7 USA 761 329 2.3 1 Japan 530 126.5 4.2 2 Switzerland 374 8.7 43.0 19 UK 321 67.9 4.7 2 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 14:37:35 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:37:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, for your grid of numbers to be meaningful you need to add another column "number of virus tests performed", after all if you do no tests you have no confirmed cases. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 14:44:10 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:44:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I would take the "Times worse than USA" column with a grain of salt, since we have absolutely no idea how many infections we actually have. On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 10:29 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Italy has taken the lead from South Korea in cases of corvid per prole. > Sunday one of their local lads opined thus: > > > > ?Let us pray to the Lord also for our priests, that they may have the > courage to go out and visit the sick... and to accompany the medical staff > and volunteers in the work they do?? Pope Francis, 8 March 2020. > > > > Ok then. The priests visit the sick. Then they go visit the not sick. > Repeat until dead. Sheesh. > > > > > > > > *nation* > > *confirmed cases* > > *million proles* > > *cases per million* > > *times worse than USA* > > China > > 80756 > > 1,345 > > 60.0 > > 26 > > Italy > > 9172 > > 60.49 > > 151.6 > > 66 > > Iran > > 8042 > > 84 > > 95.7 > > 41 > > South Korea > > 7513 > > 51.26 > > 146.6 > > 63 > > Spain > > 1622 > > 46.8 > > 34.7 > > 15 > > France > > 1412 > > 65.3 > > 21.6 > > 9 > > Germany > > 1281 > > 83.8 > > 15.3 > > 7 > > USA > > 761 > > 329 > > 2.3 > > 1 > > Japan > > 530 > > 126.5 > > 4.2 > > 2 > > Switzerland > > 374 > > 8.7 > > 43.0 > > 19 > > UK > > 321 > > 67.9 > > 4.7 > > 2 > > > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 14:45:52 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:45:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes, we can agree on that. Being in the NYC area and taking a train from a neighboring state regularly, I'm now extremely worried about what is out there due to the inadequate testing (and thermal monitoring at airports or lack thereof) that the current administration is responsible for. On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 10:41 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike, for your grid of numbers to be meaningful you need to add another > column "number of virus tests performed", after all if you do no tests you > have no confirmed cases. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 10 15:20:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 08:20:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005e01d5f6ef$6c3c5e90$44b51bb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] bad news for smart people Spike, for your grid of numbers to be meaningful you need to add another column "number of virus tests performed", after all if you do no tests you have no confirmed cases. John K Clark Hi John, I agree. Eventually we can estimate it closely enough by number of pneumonia fatalities. Even without kits, we could take the number of pneumonia fatalities, subtract the background average number and attribute the difference to visiting priests carrying disease. Given the choice, I would prefer to perish in my sins, and try to talk my way past the pearly gates giving that as an excuse: I was hoping to prevent infecting the visiting cleric who could subsequently infect other sinners. If that didn?t work, at least one could feel good about doing the right thing as one languished in the eternal flames of hell, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 10 15:29:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 08:29:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007601d5f6f0$ae3328f0$0a997ad0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] bad news for smart people Yes, we can agree on that. Being in the NYC area and taking a train from a neighboring state regularly, I'm now extremely worried about what is out there due to the inadequate testing (and thermal monitoring at airports or lack thereof) that the current administration is responsible for? Dylan, never trust a bankrupt government to take care of you. As a surprising side benefit, my bride commutes 17 miles to Palo Alto every day. Yesterday was the lightest traffic she has ever seen in 8 years. What was usually a 75 minute commute was a breezy 28 minutes. People perish in traffic accidents periodically. We seem to accept that and put it in a different category from any new risk. If this virus demonstrates that more people can use technology to work from home, and they discover how convenient it is to do that, these dead shall not have perished in vain, that this nation, under evolution, shall have a new birth of freedom. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 15:56:59 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 11:56:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: <007601d5f6f0$ae3328f0$0a997ad0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> <007601d5f6f0$ae3328f0$0a997ad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, in general, I don't trust them to take care of me, and don't want them to. That's why I've ensured I have an adequate supply of food, and something to protect it with. That said, I do expect some level of public health management out of a government this large when there is a potential epidemic on hand. I'm not in a panic, but I might be if I am one of the ones unfortunate enough to need a respirator or blood oxygenator, and there aren't enough of them. We started out with a strong response banning most flights from China, and then fell flat in terms of monitoring incoming people at airports for temperatures and actually having the ability to test someone for coronavirus to track its spread. Due to lack of testing, we have zero idea of how bad the outbreak is in the US, and now need to depend on hoping we get lucky which I'm not a fan of. For the amount of tax I pay, I do expect some kind of proper response in this relatively unlikely scenario where a centralized, coordinated effort is helpful. I do think Pence is doing the best he can under this scenario, and being a former governor is sympathetic to the states' point of view. I'm not happy with the way his boss has handled it though. What I'm hoping to get out of this on the positive side is continued disengagement from the Chinese supply chain, and a realization that pharmaceutical inputs and end products need to be manufactured somewhere in the West. On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bad news for smart people > > > > Yes, we can agree on that. Being in the NYC area and taking a train from > a neighboring state regularly, I'm now extremely worried about what is out > there due to the inadequate testing (and thermal monitoring at airports or > lack thereof) that the current administration is responsible for? > > > > > > > > Dylan, never trust a bankrupt government to take care of you. > > > > As a surprising side benefit, my bride commutes 17 miles to Palo Alto > every day. Yesterday was the lightest traffic she has ever seen in 8 > years. What was usually a 75 minute commute was a breezy 28 minutes. > > > > People perish in traffic accidents periodically. We seem to accept that > and put it in a different category from any new risk. If this virus > demonstrates that more people can use technology to work from home, and > they discover how convenient it is to do that, these dead shall not have > perished in vain, that this nation, under evolution, shall have a new birth > of freedom. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 16:16:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 11:16:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: art In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: art? https://www.quora.com/What-picture-made-your-mind-blank-for-a-few-seconds/answers/195333840?ch=10&share=08fe4dd1&srid=pTD65 Not that I am going there, but I'd like to know where these are, esp. the first one. Some liberal country? bill wa bill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 16:50:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 11:50:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! Message-ID: In a discussion with my wife she said and I quote "I could be wrong." Glorious day! Will change my entire life! Hope it happens to you too. The feeling is just superb. Unique. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 10 16:55:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:55:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: <001401d5f6e8$217f8af0$647ea0d0$@rainier66.com> <007601d5f6f0$ae3328f0$0a997ad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005001d5f6fc$a3c92e80$eb5b8b80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat ? >?What I'm hoping to get out of this on the positive side is continued disengagement from the Chinese supply chain, and a realization that pharmaceutical inputs and end products need to be manufactured somewhere in the West. Hi Dylan, Ja to all. Pharmaceuticals are manufactured in the USA, but the problem is that they are manufactured to different standards and tolerances than pharmas made abroad. Take vitamins for instance. Huge industry there, because the market in the US is huge. The US government realized what a huge costly job it is to monitor quality of those things, so they eventually just, well gave up, at least functionally. But perhaps that is for the best. Now if you buy Chinese vitamins, you have no way to determine if those pills contain the vitamins they claim. I wouldn?t assume it: it would be a lot cheaper to just send the pills made only of their substrate with no actual vitamins. They realize (as plenty of Americans do) that those devouring fake vitamins will not suffer from any known vitamin deficiency. The standard we have are likely inappropriate. We had domestic viral detection kits, but those were over-specification: they would detect a number of different viruses. It makes sense to do it that way if a doctor visit costs a ton of money: you want to go once and figure out what is wrong with you. But it isn?t compatible with testing millions of people. So? a mismatched specification caused a shortage of US test kits. Ours were over-spec and over-priced. On the other hand, stopping transportation from effected areas is a reasonable and advisable technique for the USA, and it is legal. We can stop ocean voyages (since those are just vacations) and we can stop most plane travel (our economy will survive and so will theirs.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 16:55:07 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:55:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm still waiting for that after 14 years! You've renewed my hope I may live to see the day though! On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In a discussion with my wife she said and I quote "I could be wrong." > > Glorious day! Will change my entire life! Hope it happens to you too. > The feeling is just superb. Unique. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 17:02:44 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:02:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bad news for smart people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 7:14 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thanks, Adrian - please supply a few of the malicious reasons. bill w > I'd really rather not. Dwelling on them has primarily negative consequences. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 10 17:10:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:10:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: art In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007801d5f6fe$cec43970$6c4cac50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 9:17 AM Subject: [ExI] Fwd: art art? https://www.quora.com/What-picture-made-your-mind-blank-for-a-few-seconds/answers/195333840?ch=10 &share=08fe4dd1&srid=pTD65 Not that I am going there, but I'd like to know where these are, esp. the first one. Some liberal country? bill wa Bill Hard to say, but I definitely want to go wherever that first photo was taken. Artists need models, ja? Can you imagine an athletic lass holding that pose? And if so? how the hell would the artist keep his concentration? The mind boggles. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 18:00:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:00:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] sociology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 12:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This could mean that homosexuality should have died out long ago if it > was strictly genetic, right? > Perhaps but not necessarily. Each gene in your body has 2 alleles and homosexuality could be recessive. It could be that if you have one homosexual allele you're not a homosexual but gain an adaptive advantage of some sort that may have nothing to do with sexual orientation, but if both your alleles are homosexual then you'd have a tendency toward homosexuality. But that can't be the entire story environment must play a part too because with even with identical twins there is only a 66% correspondence between the sexual orientation of the twins; with fraternal twins, who are just brothers who happen to be born at the same time, the correspondence is 30%. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 19:54:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:54:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: art In-Reply-To: <007801d5f6fe$cec43970$6c4cac50$@rainier66.com> References: <007801d5f6fe$cec43970$6c4cac50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Maybe the first one was a self-portrait, done while she was in that pose. World class athleticism,eh? bill w On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 9:17 AM > *Subject:* [ExI] Fwd: art > > > > art? > > > > > https://www.quora.com/What-picture-made-your-mind-blank-for-a-few-seconds/answers/195333840?ch=10&share=08fe4dd1&srid=pTD65 > > > > Not that I am going there, but I'd like to know where these are, esp. the > first one. Some liberal country? bill wa > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > Hard to say, but I definitely want to go wherever that first photo was > taken. > > > > Artists need models, ja? Can you imagine an athletic lass holding that > pose? And if so? how the hell would the artist keep his concentration? > The mind boggles. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 21:19:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 16:19:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this not a normal thing to say? SR Ballard > On Mar 10, 2020, at 11:55 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > I'm still waiting for that after 14 years! You've renewed my hope I may live to see the day though! > >> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> In a discussion with my wife she said and I quote "I could be wrong." >> >> Glorious day! Will change my entire life! Hope it happens to you too. The feeling is just superb. Unique. >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 21:42:32 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:42:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some people are so used to others always claiming to be right that they have given up hope of such normalcy. On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 2:21 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is this not a normal thing to say? > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 10, 2020, at 11:55 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I'm still waiting for that after 14 years! You've renewed my hope I may > live to see the day though! > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> In a discussion with my wife she said and I quote "I could be wrong." >> >> Glorious day! Will change my entire life! Hope it happens to you too. >> The feeling is just superb. Unique. >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 22:04:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:04:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just having a joke on women. But - I have been reading about decision making, attitude and behavior change, confirmation bias etc. It is hard to change a person's mind about anything. Ego defenses leap to defend the opinion. Bias in assessing data tries to support what one already believes, and many, many more things stand in the way of change and admitting being wrong. It's not hard - it's very hard. When was the last time you admitted being wrong and changing your mind about something important? Even trying to pull out memories of being wrong is something your mind fights. bill w On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 4:22 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is this not a normal thing to say? > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 10, 2020, at 11:55 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I'm still waiting for that after 14 years! You've renewed my hope I may > live to see the day though! > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> In a discussion with my wife she said and I quote "I could be wrong." >> >> Glorious day! Will change my entire life! Hope it happens to you too. >> The feeling is just superb. Unique. >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 22:29:36 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:29:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As always, I wonder if this is true or just reinforcing a bad stereotype. For instance, just after a quick check, I found this: https://www.livescience.com/8698-study-reveals-women-apologize.html I recall, too, several studies showing men tend to dominate conversations and have no problem interrupting women. So I?m thinking this is just a bad stereotype reinforced by selective recall. (Or does anyone have anything other than anecdotes about this?) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 10, 2020, at 3:06 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Just having a joke on women. But - I have been reading about decision making, attitude and behavior change, confirmation bias etc. > > It is hard to change a person's mind about anything. Ego defenses leap to defend the opinion. Bias in assessing data tries to support what one already believes, and many, many more things stand in the way of change and admitting being wrong. > > It's not hard - it's very hard. When was the last time you admitted being wrong and changing your mind about something important? Even trying to pull out memories of being wrong is something your mind fights. > > bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 22:59:02 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:59:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> I was wrong just the other day about when we do and don?t reuse Custard at work. I was corrected by one manager and had to go tell the other employee that I had been wrong about which day it was. This happens about 3 days ago. If we?re talking about overall perception of the world, I actually used to hold an alt-right position to the lines of ?the personal and professional freedom of modern women, and general modern egalitarianism will cause/is causing the downfall of western civilization?. I don?t believe that anymore. I stopped believing it a year ago. Before that I was ultra-hard ?SJW?, which I also disagree with heavily now. It?s part of growing up that you change your thoughts, feelings, and opinions, no? SR Ballard > On Mar 10, 2020, at 5:04 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Just having a joke on women. But - I have been reading about decision making, attitude and behavior change, confirmation bias etc. > > It is hard to change a person's mind about anything. Ego defenses leap to defend the opinion. Bias in assessing data tries to support what one already believes, and many, many more things stand in the way of change and admitting being wrong. > > It's not hard - it's very hard. When was the last time you admitted being wrong and changing your mind about something important? Even trying to pull out memories of being wrong is something your mind fights. > > bill w > >> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 4:22 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Is this not a normal thing to say? >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 11:55 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> I'm still waiting for that after 14 years! You've renewed my hope I may live to see the day though! >>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> In a discussion with my wife she said and I quote "I could be wrong." >>>> >>>> Glorious day! Will change my entire life! Hope it happens to you too. The feeling is just superb. Unique. >>>> >>>> bill w >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Mar 11 06:18:15 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 23:18:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting SR Ballard: > I was wrong just the other day about when we do and don?t reuse > Custard at work. I was ?corrected by one manager and had to go tell > the other employee that I had been wrong about which day it was. > This happens about 3 days ago. > > If we?re talking about overall perception of the world, I actually > used to hold an alt-right position to the lines of ?the personal and > professional freedom of modern women, and general modern > egalitarianism will cause/is causing the downfall of western > civilization?. At the time did you rationalize this position or simply feel it? ? > I don?t believe that anymore. I stopped believing it a year ago. > Before that I was ultra-hard ?SJW?, which I also disagree with heavily now. > It?s part of growing up that you change your thoughts, feelings, and > opinions, no? Personal development is not something that need stop at adulthood. You are capable of evolving your whole life, to adapt to changing times. That we can change our minds faster than nature can change our genes is why we evolved minds in the first place. You are a work in progress; have fun with it. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 09:55:35 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 05:55:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Dodged the bullet maybe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 9:17 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't see anything to suggest this is an engineered virus, and I see no > need to conjure up weird hypothesis to explain a new virus suddenly > appearing in the human population. This sort of thing has been occurring for > thousands of years. And the researchers in The Lancet article > specifically say: > > *"2019-nCoV is sufficiently divergent from SARS-CoV to be considered a new > human-infecting betacoronavirus. Although our phylogenetic analysis > suggests that bats might be the original host of this virus, an animal sold > at the seafood market in Wuhan might represent an intermediate host > facilitating the emergence of the virus in humans." * > > ### China vloggers (ADV China, laowhy86) say that while the Wuhan market is filthy, they don't actually sell bats there. On the other hand, bats were reportedly used in research at the Wuhan lab. My guess is that somebody at the lab got accidentally infected, perhaps just inhaling bat saliva or poop, and that's how it all started, with a low likelihood that the virus was in some way manipulated at the lab. The meat market story is just an attempt to deflect attention and blame from a government lab. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 10:12:02 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 06:12:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 4:44 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > And so is born the Madonna/whore complex. > > ### A woman with low sex drive is a good bet for avoiding cuckoldry in a long-term relationship. An impulsive and covetous woman is a good target for a one-night stand, after you brought down the mammoth and have choice liver chunks to share. Either approach is a viable way of passing on your genes, which is why men are attracted to both types of women, in different contexts. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 10:17:11 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 06:17:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Stop it. Please? On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The grand whitewash has now been successfully completed. The US Senate, > the so called "greatest deliberative body in the world" has cowardly made > it clear that it doesn't want to know the truth and will do everything in > its power to prevent you or any of the American people from knowing it. And > so only one more step is needed for the march toward dictatorship to be > complete, staying in power after January 20 2021 regardless of the November > election results. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Schuyler Biotech PLLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 10:28:22 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 06:28:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Genetics doesn't explain why people are poor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 2:44 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Now that real scientific genetic research is being done different > conclusions are being suggested. ### Real scientific research shows that IQ and personality traits are largely genetically determined (50 - 85%) and yes, they do predict economic success. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 10:32:45 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 06:32:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Genetics doesn't explain why people are poor In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d5d46a$590d8da0$0b28a8e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 1:01 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The basic problem is that you simply cannot do a study of poverty and > intelligence without massive confounding, so all you will ever get is > correlations. Best type of study: identical twins raised apart in very > different environments. > ### Very hard to find them. Luckily, comparing the correlations between biological parents and sibling vs adoptive parents and siblings is easy to do, and clearly show a massive effect of genetics and hardly any for the environment. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 10:49:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 06:49:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 6:23 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Stop it. Please? > *Oh how I wish I could!* *John K Clark* ================ > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The grand whitewash has now been successfully completed. The US Senate, >> the so called "greatest deliberative body in the world" has cowardly made >> it clear that it doesn't want to know the truth and will do everything in >> its power to prevent you or any of the American people from knowing it. And >> so only one more step is needed for the march toward dictatorship to be >> complete, staying in power after January 20 2021 regardless of the November >> election results. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > -- > Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD > Schuyler Biotech PLLC > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 11:49:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 07:49:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A interview with Alan Guth, the man who invented inflation Message-ID: Alan H. Guth - How Significant is an Expanding Universe? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 11 12:35:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 05:35:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a701d5f7a1$98d021f0$ca7065d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Whitewash On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 6:23 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat > wrote: > Stop it. Please? Oh how I wish I could! John K Clark So do we, John. Is there anything we can do to help? You are among friends here. Some have professional training in the field. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 12:59:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:59:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: <00a701d5f7a1$98d021f0$ca7065d0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a701d5f7a1$98d021f0$ca7065d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 8:38 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Whitewash > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 6:23 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Stop it. Please? > > > > *Oh how I wish I could!* > > > > *John K Clark* > > > > > > > *So do we, John. Is there anything we can do to help? You are among > friends here. Some have professional training in the field.* > > *spike* > Great, I didn't know there were professionally trained ignoramus eliminators on the list and would love to hear what their plan is, I'm all ears. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 11 13:12:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 06:12:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d5f7a1$98d021f0$ca7065d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bb01d5f7a6$b8f7b150$2ae713f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Whitewash On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 6:23 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat > wrote: > Stop it. Please? Oh how I wish I could! John K Clark > So do we, John. Is there anything we can do to help? You are among friends here. Some have professional training in the field. spike >?Great, I didn't know there were professionally trained ignoramus eliminators on the list and would love to hear what their plan is, I'm all ears. John K Clark Please have we any professionally-trained ignoramus eliminators? John even if we have no professionals, I can offer a sincere non-professional suggestion: focus on the areas you know best in this setting. Take the increasingly-unhinged sounding politics to an alternative forum. There are plenty of them around. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 13:24:08 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:24:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: <00bb01d5f7a6$b8f7b150$2ae713f0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a701d5f7a1$98d021f0$ca7065d0$@rainier66.com> <00bb01d5f7a6$b8f7b150$2ae713f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Take the increasingly-unhinged sounding politics to an alternative > forum.* Like a forum that wouldn't complain about a post I made a month and a half ago? And I can't be unhinged because I've never been hinged. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:06:23 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:06:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A month and a half ago is a form of stopping. On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 3:22 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Stop it. Please? > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:28:59 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:28:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, you know I'm not a big fan of JKC politicsposting (even though I tend left-of-center) but fwiw Rafal totally necroed this thread. On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 11:07 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A month and a half ago is a form of stopping. > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 3:22 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Stop it. Please? >> >> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:32:32 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:32:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lol Rafal, you really came in like a plague of locusts today to feast on the dead threads (I know locusts don't eat carrion but your post had a biblical vibe so I'm just going with it ok) On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 6:13 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 4:44 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> And so is born the Madonna/whore complex. >> >> ### A woman with low sex drive is a good bet for avoiding cuckoldry in a > long-term relationship. An impulsive and covetous woman is a good target > for a one-night stand, after you brought down the mammoth and have choice > liver chunks to share. Either approach is a viable way of passing on your > genes, which is why men are attracted to both types of women, in different > contexts. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:33:45 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:33:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Semiotics and Computability In-Reply-To: <62c14241002211048o390425cbi580ae855b8d00624@mail.gmail.com> References: <62c14241002190632s2bd77693m221e498ae628f038@mail.gmail.com> <810891.561.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62c14241002211048o390425cbi580ae855b8d00624@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think it's time for this again On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:49 PM Mike Dougherty wrote: > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Gordon Swobe wrote: > > Sense data seems like the obvious place to look for that help: the man > in the room has no access to sense data from the outside world, so perhaps > that explains why he cannot attach meanings to the symbols he manipulates. > But when we look at how computers get sense data, we see that sense data > also amounts to nothing more than meaningless patterns of 1's and 0's. > > > > At this point Stathis throws up his hands and proclaims that Searle > preaches that human brains do something "magical". But that's not it at > all. The CRA merely illustrates an ordinary mundane fact: that the human > brain has no special place in the nature as a supposed "digital computer". > The brain has the same ordinary non-digital status as other products of > biological evolution, objects like livers and hearts and spleens and nuts > and watermelons. It just happens to be one very smart melon. > > So your gripe is with the digital part of computers? Suppose analog > computers had become the dominant technology, would you still be > complaining that they can't be meaningfully intelligent because > they're merely machines lacking the quintessence that makes human > consciousness? (opening yourself to potshots about the requirement of > a soul) > > Suppose I replicate the IO transformation of CR using a complex series > of tubes and buckets filled by an eternally replenished aquifer? > There's no digital zombie-ism to preclude intelligence, can can my > Rube Goldberg water wheel be intelligent? Is it conscious? > > Have you ever seen the implementation of an adding machine using > cellular automata? (Game of Life, etc.) It's an interesting setup > because the CA rules have nothing at all to do with counting or the > operation of addition - however the CA rules can still be exploited to > do interesting and useful computation. Neurons may be bound by > analogous rules as the CA cells, but we still somehow exploit the > function of groups of neurons to convince ourselves that we're > intelligent and conscious of that belief. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:39:45 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:39:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> > > Quoting SR Ballard: >> >> If we?re talking about overall perception of the world, I actually used to hold an alt-right position to the lines of ?the personal and professional freedom of modern women, and general modern egalitarianism will cause/is causing the downfall of western civilization?. > > At the time did you rationalize this position or simply feel it? > > Stuart LaForge This was ABSOLUTELY rationalized by myself. There?s a whole sea of videos and facts to bolster my opinion. It?s a difficult position to be in, when one considers oneself an accursed destroyer of modern civilization. I was also more religious at the time (and in a different way than I currently am) as well as more economically insecure. I think for a lot of stupid opinions (such as the one I had above) I think there is probably a high correlation with an insecure lifestyle and general religiosity in that period of life. Most of these opinions people have (flat earther, antivaxx, space isn?t real, young earth, no evolution) are actually victims of cults in plain sight. It doesn?t really seem that way, initially, because they are generally only tangentially religious, and have ill defined leadership. However, I think it?s impossible to look at the followings of come icons and not see it. Personalities such as Sargon of Akkad. I used to be an avid watcher and had spent hours and hours of my life transcribing out his videos and seeking evidence for them, so I could add citations. There are other personalities as well, such as Jordan Peterson, who initially seems somewhat harmless. But it?s ?hero worship? out of control, a cult of personality, if you will. Now the primary audience of these channels is 15-30 year old men. I would say that the majority of the content I watch has that same primary audience. But it also poses some issues: namely a lot of opinions about women get shared, but there aren?t a lot of women to say, ?hey, wait a minute!? In things like gaming or discussing sports anime it?s usually fine, but in the political realm, with a sub-base that?s a good portion self-proclaimed ?incel?, the idea that women are destroying western civilization by not being baby factories, or that women should be assigned to men by some sort of sex-slavery-lotto, or should be partially stripped of their rights so that they are unable to leave their husbands (mainly financially, but also socially)... these ideas can be swallowed easily when there aren?t that many women around. In the ?Dark Web?, much like the alt-right, there is a facade of logic, objective knowledge, and science. However, it?s degenerated into an anti-SJW cesspool, on a general level. It?s fine and well to think that this kind of thing is an isolated thing, but it?s actually partially driven by AI attempts ? YouTube?s algorithm was changed specifically because people were getting sucked into this niche without actually having ever seemed it out. After watching one mild videos, they?d be presented with two which were a bit more intense, then 4 which were medium, and so on until they were hardcore decrying the women?s rights movement. They were literally groomed for extremism by YouTube?s AI. I?m not sure if members of this list can really relate to the process I?m talking about, or the mindsets involved. But honestly, I think the ?Intellectual Dark Web? is actually a source of a really big push against Transhumanist interests, in the future, just as hyper-religiosity has been in the past. I?m willing to answer any kinds of questions. SR Ballard From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:41:20 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:41:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55E40FCD-AD1D-4087-A20E-681C7563C75E@gmail.com> > Yeah, you know I'm not a big fan of JKC politicsposting (even though I tend left-of-center) but fwiw Rafal totally necroed this thread. Agreed. From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:42:40 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:42:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89D7E0C8-E362-4D2E-A808-EE065E94B355@gmail.com> > Lol Rafal, you really came in like a plague of locusts today to feast on the dead threads (I know locusts don't eat carrion but your post had a biblical vibe so I'm just going with it ok) Maybe he just got back from vacation? From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:42:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:42:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What do men what? A Madonna in public; a whore in the bedroom bill w On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 5:14 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 4:44 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> And so is born the Madonna/whore complex. >> >> ### A woman with low sex drive is a good bet for avoiding cuckoldry in a > long-term relationship. An impulsive and covetous woman is a good target > for a one-night stand, after you brought down the mammoth and have choice > liver chunks to share. Either approach is a viable way of passing on your > genes, which is why men are attracted to both types of women, in different > contexts. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 15:59:25 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:59:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 11:53 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > There are other personalities as well, such as Jordan Peterson, who > initially seems somewhat harmless. But it?s ?hero worship? out of control, > a cult of personality, if you will. > Sounds like you just need to clean your room :P ;3 (j/k, he's cringe.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 16:01:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:01:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I?m willing to answer any kinds of questions. SR Ballard I am highly interested in your changes. As I posted earlier, attitude change is difficult at best, and changing to something nearly opposite is quite rare. So - what motivated your changes? Were your earlier feelings mostly emotional? Mostly factual and rational? How much of it was due to your religious attitudes changing? Are you comfortable now with your attitudes in the sense of arriving at a permanent thing? Well, that's enough. As objectively as possible, please, and thank you in advance. bill w On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Quoting SR Ballard: > >> > >> If we?re talking about overall perception of the world, I actually used > to hold an alt-right position to the lines of ?the personal and > professional freedom of modern women, and general modern egalitarianism > will cause/is causing the downfall of western civilization?. > > > > At the time did you rationalize this position or simply feel it? > > > > Stuart LaForge > > > This was ABSOLUTELY rationalized by myself. There?s a whole sea of videos > and facts to bolster my opinion. > > It?s a difficult position to be in, when one considers oneself an accursed > destroyer of modern civilization. > > I was also more religious at the time (and in a different way than I > currently am) as well as more economically insecure. > > I think for a lot of stupid opinions (such as the one I had above) I think > there is probably a high correlation with an insecure lifestyle and general > religiosity in that period of life. > > Most of these opinions people have (flat earther, antivaxx, space isn?t > real, young earth, no evolution) are actually victims of cults in plain > sight. It doesn?t really seem that way, initially, because they are > generally only tangentially religious, and have ill defined leadership. > > However, I think it?s impossible to look at the followings of come icons > and not see it. Personalities such as Sargon of Akkad. I used to be an avid > watcher and had spent hours and hours of my life transcribing out his > videos and seeking evidence for them, so I could add citations. > > There are other personalities as well, such as Jordan Peterson, who > initially seems somewhat harmless. But it?s ?hero worship? out of control, > a cult of personality, if you will. > > Now the primary audience of these channels is 15-30 year old men. I would > say that the majority of the content I watch has that same primary > audience. But it also poses some issues: namely a lot of opinions about > women get shared, but there aren?t a lot of women to say, ?hey, wait a > minute!? In things like gaming or discussing sports anime it?s usually > fine, but in the political realm, with a sub-base that?s a good portion > self-proclaimed ?incel?, the idea that women are destroying western > civilization by not being baby factories, or that women should be assigned > to men by some sort of sex-slavery-lotto, or should be partially stripped > of their rights so that they are unable to leave their husbands (mainly > financially, but also socially)... these ideas can be swallowed easily when > there aren?t that many women around. > > In the ?Dark Web?, much like the alt-right, there is a facade of logic, > objective knowledge, and science. However, it?s degenerated into an > anti-SJW cesspool, on a general level. > > It?s fine and well to think that this kind of thing is an isolated thing, > but it?s actually partially driven by AI attempts ? YouTube?s algorithm was > changed specifically because people were getting sucked into this niche > without actually having ever seemed it out. After watching one mild videos, > they?d be presented with two which were a bit more intense, then 4 which > were medium, and so on until they were hardcore decrying the women?s rights > movement. They were literally groomed for extremism by YouTube?s AI. > > I?m not sure if members of this list can really relate to the process I?m > talking about, or the mindsets involved. But honestly, I think the > ?Intellectual Dark Web? is actually a source of a really big push against > Transhumanist interests, in the future, just as hyper-religiosity has been > in the past. > > I?m willing to answer any kinds of questions. > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 16:16:34 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:16:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 8:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It?s fine and well to think that this kind of thing is an isolated thing, > but it?s actually partially driven by AI attempts ? YouTube?s algorithm was > changed specifically because people were getting sucked into this niche > without actually having ever seemed it out. After watching one mild videos, > they?d be presented with two which were a bit more intense, then 4 which > were medium, and so on until they were hardcore decrying the women?s rights > movement. They were literally groomed for extremism by YouTube?s AI. > I understand that this sort of thing was going on long before YouTube's current AI, although that has contributed to the current generation. I also understand that a simple (and I mean really simple, the kind that AI is capable of today but for a human would seem trivial) recognition and downweighting of extremist content could solve the problem, but that YouTube (and Alphabet as a whole) is under pressure from many politicians inside and outside the US (who are themselves extremist - as you put it, essentially cult members, having obtained their positions through said cults) not to do any such thing. Does this agree with your understanding? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 16:23:56 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:23:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What do men want? Same as women: to speak for themselves, or at least to not be inaccurately spoken for. On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 9:18 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What do men what? A Madonna in public; a whore in the bedroom > bill w > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 5:14 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 4:44 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> And so is born the Madonna/whore complex. >>> >>> ### A woman with low sex drive is a good bet for avoiding cuckoldry in a >> long-term relationship. An impulsive and covetous woman is a good target >> for a one-night stand, after you brought down the mammoth and have choice >> liver chunks to share. Either approach is a viable way of passing on your >> genes, which is why men are attracted to both types of women, in different >> contexts. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 16:28:13 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:28:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Genetics doesn't explain why people are poor Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: snip > ### Real scientific research shows that IQ and personality traits are largely genetically determined (50 - 85%) and yes, they do predict economic success. >From Gregory Clark's work, we know the UK population was subjected to at least 20 generations of intense selection for the traits that lead to wealth. The same was true for northwestern Europe, China and Japan (the selection was less intense, but went on longer.) Keith From avant at sollegro.com Wed Mar 11 17:48:35 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:48:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks Message-ID: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to NOT wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or data? Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? Maybe N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not regularly face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with several patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical mask on the subway or bus? Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical mask but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From the average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according to this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on only one or two occasions." What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid to properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better than no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed experience? Stuart LaForge From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 19:46:24 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:46:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks In-Reply-To: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <30738FD4-C4C1-48B9-8DDC-C271D6D14FA1@gmail.com> It might give people a false sense of security... That said, my mask is a P200, but I got it for fire season years ago. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to NOT wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or data? Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? Maybe N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not regularly face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with several patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical mask on the subway or bus? > > Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical mask but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From the average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according to this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. > > https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full > > "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on only one or two occasions." > > What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid to properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 > > In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better than no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed experience? > > Stuart LaForge -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 19:51:24 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:51:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks In-Reply-To: <30738FD4-C4C1-48B9-8DDC-C271D6D14FA1@gmail.com> References: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <30738FD4-C4C1-48B9-8DDC-C271D6D14FA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I suspect another reason is that there are no longer any masks available in most US locations, and the government does not have a stockpile that is in sufficient quantities. On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It might give people a false sense of security... That said, my mask is a > P200, but I got it for fire season years ago. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to NOT > wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or data? > Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? Maybe > N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not regularly > face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with several > patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical mask on > the subway or bus? > > Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical mask > but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From the > average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according to > this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE > effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is > stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also > protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. > > > https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full > > "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the > measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. > Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and > six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically > significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in > seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be > statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures > were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on > only one or two occasions." > > What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid to > properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in > public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My > professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should > absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles > as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too > expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 > > In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better than > no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed experience? > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 21:18:42 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 22:18:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks In-Reply-To: References: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <30738FD4-C4C1-48B9-8DDC-C271D6D14FA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Masks do not provide a good protection, likely because direct inhalation or depositing of viri that the mask can protect against is not the main problem when you get infected (most of the time/viruses) instead it is depositing infectious stuff on surfaces ie cough in hand, take handle and the next person takes handle, get virus particles on hand and proceeds to touch face, eyes nose mouth and insert virus into system that way. this means take really gross gloves protect better against influenza and likely covid. So we should all stockpile nasty gloves..... /henrik Den ons 11 mars 2020 kl 20:56 skrev Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>: > I suspect another reason is that there are no longer any masks available > in most US locations, and the government does not have a stockpile that is > in sufficient quantities. > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It might give people a false sense of security... That said, my mask is a >> P200, but I got it for fire season years ago. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books at: >> >> http://author.to/DanUst >> >> On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to NOT >> wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or data? >> Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? Maybe >> N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not regularly >> face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with several >> patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical mask on >> the subway or bus? >> >> Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical mask >> but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From the >> average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according to >> this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE >> effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is >> stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also >> protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. >> >> >> https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full >> >> "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the >> measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. >> Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and >> six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically >> significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in >> seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be >> statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures >> were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on >> only one or two occasions." >> >> What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid to >> properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in >> public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My >> professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should >> absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles >> as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too >> expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 >> >> In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better than >> no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed experience? >> >> Stuart LaForge >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 21:55:50 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:55:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I started to reply to this, but it turns out the reply was a lot longer than I expected ? it?ll be a hot minute but I?ll get back to you. I?ve literally been working on it for 4 hours. But I think it?s important to make it as clear as possible. There goes my day off! SR Ballard > On Mar 11, 2020, at 11:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I?m willing to answer any kinds of questions. > > SR Ballard > I am highly interested in your changes. As I posted earlier, attitude change is difficult at best, and changing to something nearly opposite is quite rare. So - what motivated your changes? Were your earlier feelings mostly emotional? Mostly factual and rational? How much of it was due to your religious attitudes changing? Are you comfortable now with your attitudes in the sense of arriving at a permanent thing? > > Well, that's enough. As objectively as possible, please, and thank you in advance. > > bill w > >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > >> > Quoting SR Ballard: >> >> >> >> If we?re talking about overall perception of the world, I actually used to hold an alt-right position to the lines of ?the personal and professional freedom of modern women, and general modern egalitarianism will cause/is causing the downfall of western civilization?. >> > >> > At the time did you rationalize this position or simply feel it? >> > >> > Stuart LaForge >> >> >> This was ABSOLUTELY rationalized by myself. There?s a whole sea of videos and facts to bolster my opinion. >> >> It?s a difficult position to be in, when one considers oneself an accursed destroyer of modern civilization. >> >> I was also more religious at the time (and in a different way than I currently am) as well as more economically insecure. >> >> I think for a lot of stupid opinions (such as the one I had above) I think there is probably a high correlation with an insecure lifestyle and general religiosity in that period of life. >> >> Most of these opinions people have (flat earther, antivaxx, space isn?t real, young earth, no evolution) are actually victims of cults in plain sight. It doesn?t really seem that way, initially, because they are generally only tangentially religious, and have ill defined leadership. >> >> However, I think it?s impossible to look at the followings of come icons and not see it. Personalities such as Sargon of Akkad. I used to be an avid watcher and had spent hours and hours of my life transcribing out his videos and seeking evidence for them, so I could add citations. >> >> There are other personalities as well, such as Jordan Peterson, who initially seems somewhat harmless. But it?s ?hero worship? out of control, a cult of personality, if you will. >> >> Now the primary audience of these channels is 15-30 year old men. I would say that the majority of the content I watch has that same primary audience. But it also poses some issues: namely a lot of opinions about women get shared, but there aren?t a lot of women to say, ?hey, wait a minute!? In things like gaming or discussing sports anime it?s usually fine, but in the political realm, with a sub-base that?s a good portion self-proclaimed ?incel?, the idea that women are destroying western civilization by not being baby factories, or that women should be assigned to men by some sort of sex-slavery-lotto, or should be partially stripped of their rights so that they are unable to leave their husbands (mainly financially, but also socially)... these ideas can be swallowed easily when there aren?t that many women around. >> >> In the ?Dark Web?, much like the alt-right, there is a facade of logic, objective knowledge, and science. However, it?s degenerated into an anti-SJW cesspool, on a general level. >> >> It?s fine and well to think that this kind of thing is an isolated thing, but it?s actually partially driven by AI attempts ? YouTube?s algorithm was changed specifically because people were getting sucked into this niche without actually having ever seemed it out. After watching one mild videos, they?d be presented with two which were a bit more intense, then 4 which were medium, and so on until they were hardcore decrying the women?s rights movement. They were literally groomed for extremism by YouTube?s AI. >> >> I?m not sure if members of this list can really relate to the process I?m talking about, or the mindsets involved. But honestly, I think the ?Intellectual Dark Web? is actually a source of a really big push against Transhumanist interests, in the future, just as hyper-religiosity has been in the past. >> >> I?m willing to answer any kinds of questions. >> >> SR Ballard >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 22:12:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:12:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, did not want to take your day off, so I hope that you are doing something for yourself and not just for me. Obviously you have done a lot of soul-searching the past couple of years. No hurry! bill w On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:58 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I started to reply to this, but it turns out the reply was a lot longer > than I expected ? it?ll be a hot minute but I?ll get back to you. > > I?ve literally been working on it for 4 hours. But I think it?s important > to make it as clear as possible. > > There goes my day off! > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 11, 2020, at 11:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I?m willing to answer any kinds of questions. > > SR Ballard > I am highly interested in your changes. As I posted earlier, attitude > change is difficult at best, and changing to something nearly opposite is > quite rare. So - what motivated your changes? Were your earlier feelings > mostly emotional? Mostly factual and rational? How much of it was due to > your religious attitudes changing? Are you comfortable now with your > attitudes in the sense of arriving at a permanent thing? > > Well, that's enough. As objectively as possible, please, and thank you in > advance. > > bill w > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> > >> > Quoting SR Ballard: >> >> >> >> If we?re talking about overall perception of the world, I actually >> used to hold an alt-right position to the lines of ?the personal and >> professional freedom of modern women, and general modern egalitarianism >> will cause/is causing the downfall of western civilization?. >> > >> > At the time did you rationalize this position or simply feel it? >> > >> > Stuart LaForge >> >> >> This was ABSOLUTELY rationalized by myself. There?s a whole sea of videos >> and facts to bolster my opinion. >> >> It?s a difficult position to be in, when one considers oneself an >> accursed destroyer of modern civilization. >> >> I was also more religious at the time (and in a different way than I >> currently am) as well as more economically insecure. >> >> I think for a lot of stupid opinions (such as the one I had above) I >> think there is probably a high correlation with an insecure lifestyle and >> general religiosity in that period of life. >> >> Most of these opinions people have (flat earther, antivaxx, space isn?t >> real, young earth, no evolution) are actually victims of cults in plain >> sight. It doesn?t really seem that way, initially, because they are >> generally only tangentially religious, and have ill defined leadership. >> >> However, I think it?s impossible to look at the followings of come icons >> and not see it. Personalities such as Sargon of Akkad. I used to be an avid >> watcher and had spent hours and hours of my life transcribing out his >> videos and seeking evidence for them, so I could add citations. >> >> There are other personalities as well, such as Jordan Peterson, who >> initially seems somewhat harmless. But it?s ?hero worship? out of control, >> a cult of personality, if you will. >> >> Now the primary audience of these channels is 15-30 year old men. I would >> say that the majority of the content I watch has that same primary >> audience. But it also poses some issues: namely a lot of opinions about >> women get shared, but there aren?t a lot of women to say, ?hey, wait a >> minute!? In things like gaming or discussing sports anime it?s usually >> fine, but in the political realm, with a sub-base that?s a good portion >> self-proclaimed ?incel?, the idea that women are destroying western >> civilization by not being baby factories, or that women should be assigned >> to men by some sort of sex-slavery-lotto, or should be partially stripped >> of their rights so that they are unable to leave their husbands (mainly >> financially, but also socially)... these ideas can be swallowed easily when >> there aren?t that many women around. >> >> In the ?Dark Web?, much like the alt-right, there is a facade of logic, >> objective knowledge, and science. However, it?s degenerated into an >> anti-SJW cesspool, on a general level. >> >> It?s fine and well to think that this kind of thing is an isolated thing, >> but it?s actually partially driven by AI attempts ? YouTube?s algorithm was >> changed specifically because people were getting sucked into this niche >> without actually having ever seemed it out. After watching one mild videos, >> they?d be presented with two which were a bit more intense, then 4 which >> were medium, and so on until they were hardcore decrying the women?s rights >> movement. They were literally groomed for extremism by YouTube?s AI. >> >> I?m not sure if members of this list can really relate to the process I?m >> talking about, or the mindsets involved. But honestly, I think the >> ?Intellectual Dark Web? is actually a source of a really big push against >> Transhumanist interests, in the future, just as hyper-religiosity has been >> in the past. >> >> I?m willing to answer any kinds of questions. >> >> SR Ballard >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 22:14:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:14:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks In-Reply-To: References: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <30738FD4-C4C1-48B9-8DDC-C271D6D14FA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have been on a mission to get people to cough into their elbows. When I tell them this (also saying it's what a nurse told me) they look at me very strangely. But I have been my librarian cough into her hand, put it on a book and hand it to me. Why has it taken so long to get the message across about vectors? bill w On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:21 PM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Masks do not provide a good protection, likely because direct inhalation > or depositing of viri that the mask can protect against is not the main > problem when you get infected (most of the time/viruses) instead it is > depositing infectious stuff on surfaces ie cough in hand, take handle and > the next person takes handle, get virus particles on hand and proceeds to > touch face, eyes nose mouth and insert virus into system that way. this > means take really gross gloves protect better against influenza and likely > covid. > So we should all stockpile nasty gloves..... > /henrik > > Den ons 11 mars 2020 kl 20:56 skrev Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>: > >> I suspect another reason is that there are no longer any masks available >> in most US locations, and the government does not have a stockpile that is >> in sufficient quantities. >> >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> It might give people a false sense of security... That said, my mask is >>> a P200, but I got it for fire season years ago. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Dan >>> Sample my Kindle books at: >>> >>> http://author.to/DanUst >>> >>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to >>> NOT wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or >>> data? Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? >>> Maybe N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not >>> regularly face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with >>> several patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical >>> mask on the subway or bus? >>> >>> Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical >>> mask but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From >>> the average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according >>> to this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE >>> effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is >>> stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also >>> protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. >>> >>> >>> https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full >>> >>> "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the >>> measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. >>> Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and >>> six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically >>> significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in >>> seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be >>> statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures >>> were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on >>> only one or two occasions." >>> >>> What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid >>> to properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in >>> public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My >>> professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should >>> absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles >>> as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too >>> expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 >>> >>> In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better than >>> no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed experience? >>> >>> Stuart LaForge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 22:28:20 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:28:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I wasn?t doing anything useful, lol. I spent the other half of the day cutting and recombining a PDF textbook into 4 smaller books: the instructions, the review, the exercises, and the answer key. It?s not the cutting that?s the issue, it?s the making sure I cut it the right way. One day AI can do it for me! Until then... SR Ballard > On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Well, did not want to take your day off, so I hope that you are doing something for yourself and not just for me. Obviously you have done a lot of soul-searching the past couple of years. No hurry! > > bill w > >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:58 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> I started to reply to this, but it turns out the reply was a lot longer than I expected ? it?ll be a hot minute but I?ll get back to you. >> >> I?ve literally been working on it for 4 hours. But I think it?s important to make it as clear as possible. >> >> There goes my day off! >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 11:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> I?m willing to answer any kinds of questions. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> I am highly interested in your changes. As I posted earlier, attitude change is difficult at best, and changing to something nearly opposite is quite rare. So - what motivated your changes? Were your earlier feelings mostly emotional? Mostly factual and rational? How much of it was due to your religious attitudes changing? Are you comfortable now with your attitudes in the sense of arriving at a permanent thing? >>> >>> Well, that's enough. As objectively as possible, please, and thank you in advance. >>> >>> bill w >>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 10:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Quoting SR Ballard: >>>> >> >>>> >> If we?re talking about overall perception of the world, I actually used to hold an alt-right position to the lines of ?the personal and professional freedom of modern women, and general modern egalitarianism will cause/is causing the downfall of western civilization?. >>>> > >>>> > At the time did you rationalize this position or simply feel it? >>>> > >>>> > Stuart LaForge >>>> >>>> >>>> This was ABSOLUTELY rationalized by myself. There?s a whole sea of videos and facts to bolster my opinion. >>>> >>>> It?s a difficult position to be in, when one considers oneself an accursed destroyer of modern civilization. >>>> >>>> I was also more religious at the time (and in a different way than I currently am) as well as more economically insecure. >>>> >>>> I think for a lot of stupid opinions (such as the one I had above) I think there is probably a high correlation with an insecure lifestyle and general religiosity in that period of life. >>>> >>>> Most of these opinions people have (flat earther, antivaxx, space isn?t real, young earth, no evolution) are actually victims of cults in plain sight. It doesn?t really seem that way, initially, because they are generally only tangentially religious, and have ill defined leadership. >>>> >>>> However, I think it?s impossible to look at the followings of come icons and not see it. Personalities such as Sargon of Akkad. I used to be an avid watcher and had spent hours and hours of my life transcribing out his videos and seeking evidence for them, so I could add citations. >>>> >>>> There are other personalities as well, such as Jordan Peterson, who initially seems somewhat harmless. But it?s ?hero worship? out of control, a cult of personality, if you will. >>>> >>>> Now the primary audience of these channels is 15-30 year old men. I would say that the majority of the content I watch has that same primary audience. But it also poses some issues: namely a lot of opinions about women get shared, but there aren?t a lot of women to say, ?hey, wait a minute!? In things like gaming or discussing sports anime it?s usually fine, but in the political realm, with a sub-base that?s a good portion self-proclaimed ?incel?, the idea that women are destroying western civilization by not being baby factories, or that women should be assigned to men by some sort of sex-slavery-lotto, or should be partially stripped of their rights so that they are unable to leave their husbands (mainly financially, but also socially)... these ideas can be swallowed easily when there aren?t that many women around. >>>> >>>> In the ?Dark Web?, much like the alt-right, there is a facade of logic, objective knowledge, and science. However, it?s degenerated into an anti-SJW cesspool, on a general level. >>>> >>>> It?s fine and well to think that this kind of thing is an isolated thing, but it?s actually partially driven by AI attempts ? YouTube?s algorithm was changed specifically because people were getting sucked into this niche without actually having ever seemed it out. After watching one mild videos, they?d be presented with two which were a bit more intense, then 4 which were medium, and so on until they were hardcore decrying the women?s rights movement. They were literally groomed for extremism by YouTube?s AI. >>>> >>>> I?m not sure if members of this list can really relate to the process I?m talking about, or the mindsets involved. But honestly, I think the ?Intellectual Dark Web? is actually a source of a really big push against Transhumanist interests, in the future, just as hyper-religiosity has been in the past. >>>> >>>> I?m willing to answer any kinds of questions. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 22:32:52 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:32:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks In-Reply-To: References: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <30738FD4-C4C1-48B9-8DDC-C271D6D14FA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm surprised to hear that. I would expect everyone to follow that these days. The good thing is that all of the kids, at least in my area, have it ingrained from home/school to cough into their elbows prior to this mess. You may want to make them aware of the elbow bump which is now de riguer to replace the handshake :-). On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 6:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have been on a mission to get people to cough into their elbows. When I > tell them this (also saying it's what a nurse told me) they look at me very > strangely. But I have been my librarian cough into her hand, put it on a > book and hand it to me. Why has it taken so long to get the message across > about vectors? bill w > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:21 PM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Masks do not provide a good protection, likely because direct inhalation >> or depositing of viri that the mask can protect against is not the main >> problem when you get infected (most of the time/viruses) instead it is >> depositing infectious stuff on surfaces ie cough in hand, take handle and >> the next person takes handle, get virus particles on hand and proceeds to >> touch face, eyes nose mouth and insert virus into system that way. this >> means take really gross gloves protect better against influenza and likely >> covid. >> So we should all stockpile nasty gloves..... >> /henrik >> >> Den ons 11 mars 2020 kl 20:56 skrev Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>: >> >>> I suspect another reason is that there are no longer any masks available >>> in most US locations, and the government does not have a stockpile that is >>> in sufficient quantities. >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> It might give people a false sense of security... That said, my mask is >>>> a P200, but I got it for fire season years ago. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> Sample my Kindle books at: >>>> >>>> http://author.to/DanUst >>>> >>>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> ? >>>> I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to >>>> NOT wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or >>>> data? Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? >>>> Maybe N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not >>>> regularly face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with >>>> several patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical >>>> mask on the subway or bus? >>>> >>>> Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical >>>> mask but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From >>>> the average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according >>>> to this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE >>>> effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is >>>> stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also >>>> protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full >>>> >>>> "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the >>>> measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. >>>> Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and >>>> six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically >>>> significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in >>>> seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be >>>> statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures >>>> were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on >>>> only one or two occasions." >>>> >>>> What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid >>>> to properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in >>>> public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My >>>> professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should >>>> absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles >>>> as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too >>>> expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 >>>> >>>> In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better >>>> than no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed >>>> experience? >>>> >>>> Stuart LaForge >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 22:33:32 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:33:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks In-Reply-To: References: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <30738FD4-C4C1-48B9-8DDC-C271D6D14FA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83476F8A-1CE1-46A5-9BB5-4ABCF8E9B579@gmail.com> I think it?s a cultural thing. If it were culturally normal to cough in your elbow, people would do that instead. In Japan I didn?t really see people even cover their moth with their hands! Thank God for masks. Just the other day a lady coughed on her money then gave me the stink eye when I washed my hands... (shrug) SR Ballard > On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I have been on a mission to get people to cough into their elbows. When I tell them this (also saying it's what a nurse told me) they look at me very strangely. But I have been my librarian cough into her hand, put it on a book and hand it to me. Why has it taken so long to get the message across about vectors? bill w > >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:21 PM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat wrote: >> Masks do not provide a good protection, likely because direct inhalation or depositing of viri that the mask can protect against is not the main problem when you get infected (most of the time/viruses) instead it is depositing infectious stuff on surfaces ie cough in hand, take handle and the next person takes handle, get virus particles on hand and proceeds to touch face, eyes nose mouth and insert virus into system that way. this means take really gross gloves protect better against influenza and likely covid. >> So we should all stockpile nasty gloves..... >> /henrik >> >> Den ons 11 mars 2020 kl 20:56 skrev Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat : >>> I suspect another reason is that there are no longer any masks available in most US locations, and the government does not have a stockpile that is in sufficient quantities. >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> It might give people a false sense of security... That said, my mask is a P200, but I got it for fire season years ago. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> Sample my Kindle books at: >>>> http://author.to/DanUst >>>> >>>>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to NOT wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or data? Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? Maybe N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not regularly face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with several patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical mask on the subway or bus? >>>>> >>>>> Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical mask but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From the average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according to this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full >>>>> >>>>> "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on only one or two occasions." >>>>> >>>>> What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid to properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 >>>>> >>>>> In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better than no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed experience? >>>>> >>>>> Stuart LaForge >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 22:42:32 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:42:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Throwing shade on JP I see :-), I actually think there is value to be found in his work, although I found your comment funny. On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:25 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 11:53 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> There are other personalities as well, such as Jordan Peterson, who >> initially seems somewhat harmless. But it?s ?hero worship? out of control, >> a cult of personality, if you will. >> > > Sounds like you just need to clean your room :P ;3 (j/k, he's cringe.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Wed Mar 11 22:58:50 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:58:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks Message-ID: LOL Stuart - I haven't understood a single thing the CDC has done! I personally would not go out at this point without a mask, IMHO of course they help protect you, at the least by keeping you from touching your face with a virus-y hand. If anyone is interested, I made a video on how to treat a surgical mask to have anti-viral properties, by spraying it with a salt solution. The 2017 paper I refer to is cited in the comments at YT. And YES wear swimmers goggles too! https://youtu.be/pf8Iahxhd7Y Even the salt-infused mask is limited if it is not form-fitted to your face. I made a wire form (I used 16 ga craft wire) that I attached two rubber-band loops to, to hold in place both over and around my head. I put a tissue around the wire so it looks less dorky, the wire form is worn outside the mask, serving to close the gaps. You can also tape the mask to your face but be warned - that itches! YMMV. --Regina Message: 4 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:48:35 -0700 From: Stuart LaForge To: ExI Chat Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks Message-ID: < 20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF at secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to NOT wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or data? Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? Maybe N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not regularly face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with several patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical mask on the subway or bus? Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical mask but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From the average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according to this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on only one or two occasions." What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid to properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better than no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed experience? Stuart LaForge ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 23:45:17 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:45:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3AC2D5E0-B082-4051-96D8-C5251D01E613@gmail.com> Coughing into the elbow or shoulder was, I thought, the correct thing to do. Or so I was taught. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:27 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > I have been on a mission to get people to cough into their elbows. When I tell them this (also saying it's what a nurse told me) they look at me very strangely. But I have been my librarian cough into her hand, put it on a book and hand it to me. Why has it taken so long to get the message across about vectors? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 00:34:18 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 19:34:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hallelula! In-Reply-To: References: <06B965FF-6900-4100-B037-BEB0402EB54F@gmail.com> <1586452212.2025113.1583905512398@mail.yahoo.com> <20200310231815.Horde.5merXyuacItEbf95Z4zijUL@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <3E94DA38-A34B-4DB8-B351-82A53266D0CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is also caution to be found in accepting some of the things he says. SR Ballard > On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:42 PM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > Throwing shade on JP I see :-), I actually think there is value to be found in his work, although I found your comment funny. > >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:25 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 11:53 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> >>> There are other personalities as well, such as Jordan Peterson, who initially seems somewhat harmless. But it?s ?hero worship? out of control, a cult of personality, if you will. >> >> Sounds like you just need to clean your room :P ;3 (j/k, he's cringe.) >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 01:19:13 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:19:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks In-Reply-To: References: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <30738FD4-C4C1-48B9-8DDC-C271D6D14FA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: The elbow bump is new to me. Of course it takes a few decades for things to get from NYC to Mississippi. Coughing into elbow is very rare. bill w On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 5:43 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm surprised to hear that. I would expect everyone to follow that these > days. The good thing is that all of the kids, at least in my area, have > it ingrained from home/school to cough into their elbows prior to this > mess. You may want to make them aware of the elbow bump which is now de > riguer to replace the handshake :-). > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 6:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I have been on a mission to get people to cough into their elbows. When >> I tell them this (also saying it's what a nurse told me) they look at me >> very strangely. But I have been my librarian cough into her hand, put it on >> a book and hand it to me. Why has it taken so long to get the message >> across about vectors? bill w >> >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:21 PM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Masks do not provide a good protection, likely because direct inhalation >>> or depositing of viri that the mask can protect against is not the main >>> problem when you get infected (most of the time/viruses) instead it is >>> depositing infectious stuff on surfaces ie cough in hand, take handle and >>> the next person takes handle, get virus particles on hand and proceeds to >>> touch face, eyes nose mouth and insert virus into system that way. this >>> means take really gross gloves protect better against influenza and likely >>> covid. >>> So we should all stockpile nasty gloves..... >>> /henrik >>> >>> Den ons 11 mars 2020 kl 20:56 skrev Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>: >>> >>>> I suspect another reason is that there are no longer any masks >>>> available in most US locations, and the government does not have a >>>> stockpile that is in sufficient quantities. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It might give people a false sense of security... That said, my mask >>>>> is a P200, but I got it for fire season years ago. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Dan >>>>> Sample my Kindle books at: >>>>> >>>>> http://author.to/DanUst >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to >>>>> NOT wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or >>>>> data? Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? >>>>> Maybe N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not >>>>> regularly face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with >>>>> several patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical >>>>> mask on the subway or bus? >>>>> >>>>> Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical >>>>> mask but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From >>>>> the average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according >>>>> to this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE >>>>> effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is >>>>> stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also >>>>> protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full >>>>> >>>>> "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the >>>>> measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. >>>>> Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and >>>>> six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically >>>>> significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in >>>>> seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be >>>>> statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures >>>>> were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on >>>>> only one or two occasions." >>>>> >>>>> What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid >>>>> to properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in >>>>> public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My >>>>> professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should >>>>> absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles >>>>> as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too >>>>> expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 >>>>> >>>>> In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better >>>>> than no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed >>>>> experience? >>>>> >>>>> Stuart LaForge >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 03:15:43 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 22:15:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the CDC's weird recommendation on masks In-Reply-To: References: <20200311104835.Horde.VJ6d7cWQtciLFdYYBQ-nMMF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <30738FD4-C4C1-48B9-8DDC-C271D6D14FA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: The funnies part of the whole thing, to me, is that the CDC says only sick people should wear masks ? then they turn around and say that people may be sick and spreading the virus before they know they are sick. Odd. I honestly just think it?s because we?re dangerously close to out of stock. Perhaps right now is just a slow motion shot of what?s about to hit the fan. SR Ballard > On Mar 11, 2020, at 8:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > The elbow bump is new to me. Of course it takes a few decades for things to get from NYC to Mississippi. Coughing into elbow is very rare. bill w > >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 5:43 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >> I'm surprised to hear that. I would expect everyone to follow that these days. The good thing is that all of the kids, at least in my area, have it ingrained from home/school to cough into their elbows prior to this mess. You may want to make them aware of the elbow bump which is now de riguer to replace the handshake :-). >> >>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 6:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> I have been on a mission to get people to cough into their elbows. When I tell them this (also saying it's what a nurse told me) they look at me very strangely. But I have been my librarian cough into her hand, put it on a book and hand it to me. Why has it taken so long to get the message across about vectors? bill w >>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:21 PM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> Masks do not provide a good protection, likely because direct inhalation or depositing of viri that the mask can protect against is not the main problem when you get infected (most of the time/viruses) instead it is depositing infectious stuff on surfaces ie cough in hand, take handle and the next person takes handle, get virus particles on hand and proceeds to touch face, eyes nose mouth and insert virus into system that way. this means take really gross gloves protect better against influenza and likely covid. >>>> So we should all stockpile nasty gloves..... >>>> /henrik >>>> >>>> Den ons 11 mars 2020 kl 20:56 skrev Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat : >>>>> I suspect another reason is that there are no longer any masks available in most US locations, and the government does not have a stockpile that is in sufficient quantities. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> It might give people a false sense of security... That said, my mask is a P200, but I got it for fire season years ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Dan >>>>>> Sample my Kindle books at: >>>>>> http://author.to/DanUst >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> I don't understand this recommendation from the CDC for the public to NOT wear masks for COVID-19 prophylaxis. Is it based on any evidence or data? Or is it just because the supply shortage for healthcare workers? Maybe N-95 respirators are overkill for the general public that is not regularly face to face with infected patients or entering rooms with several patients. But why shouldn't somebody at risk not wear a surgical mask on the subway or bus? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, the virus is small enough to go through the pores of a surgical mask but it will certainly stop many of the larger aerosol droplets. From the average cough or sneeze from three to six feet away. In fact according to this review of the literature, simple disposable surgical masks ARE effective in protecting the wearer according to 6 out of 7 studies. This is stronger than the evidence for the efficacy of hand washing which was also protective but in only 4 out 7 studies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "These data suggest that wearing a surgical mask or a N95 mask is the measure with the most consistent and comprehensive supportive evidence. Seven out of eight studies included masks as a measure in their study and six out of seven of these studies found masks to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. Handwashing was also included in seven of the studies with four studies showing handwashing to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis. All other measures were shown to be statistically significant in multivariable analysis on only one or two occasions." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is going on here? Does the CDC just think everybody is too stupid to properly use a face mask properly? I have in the past been coughed on in public to my great annoyance so it certainly is a realistic risk. My professional opinion as a microbiologist is that at risk people should absolutely wear a mask in crowded conditions and safety glasses or goggles as well. And if you can't buy any because they are sold out or too expensive due to price gouging, then you should make your own: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGU2vWHKC8 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In my opinion ANY barrier to the aerosol from sick people is better than no barrier. Any insights from the other list members with biomed experience? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stuart LaForge >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellycoinguy at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 03:23:54 2020 From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:23:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Coronavirus Math In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello my extropian friends! I've been super busy for a few years... and my mailbox is full, but assuming anyone is still doing email... I thought I'd pass along this really good article that is full of math to you who truly understand exponents. I'm sure you've all talked this one through already, but I found this article super interesting. https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca Take home point is that the number of cases can be reduced 40% by doing social distancing just ONE DAY earlier. -Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 04:14:27 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 00:14:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Semiotics and Computability In-Reply-To: References: <62c14241002190632s2bd77693m221e498ae628f038@mail.gmail.com> <810891.561.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62c14241002211048o390425cbi580ae855b8d00624@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So what part of "this" do you think should come around once per decade? On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 11:46 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think it's time for this again > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:49 PM Mike Dougherty wrote: > >> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Gordon Swobe >> wrote: >> > Sense data seems like the obvious place to look for that help: the man >> in the room has no access to sense data from the outside world, so perhaps >> that explains why he cannot attach meanings to the symbols he manipulates. >> But when we look at how computers get sense data, we see that sense data >> also amounts to nothing more than meaningless patterns of 1's and 0's. >> > >> > At this point Stathis throws up his hands and proclaims that Searle >> preaches that human brains do something "magical". But that's not it at >> all. The CRA merely illustrates an ordinary mundane fact: that the human >> brain has no special place in the nature as a supposed "digital computer". >> The brain has the same ordinary non-digital status as other products of >> biological evolution, objects like livers and hearts and spleens and nuts >> and watermelons. It just happens to be one very smart melon. >> >> So your gripe is with the digital part of computers? Suppose analog >> computers had become the dominant technology, would you still be >> complaining that they can't be meaningfully intelligent because >> they're merely machines lacking the quintessence that makes human >> consciousness? (opening yourself to potshots about the requirement of >> a soul) >> >> Suppose I replicate the IO transformation of CR using a complex series >> of tubes and buckets filled by an eternally replenished aquifer? >> There's no digital zombie-ism to preclude intelligence, can can my >> Rube Goldberg water wheel be intelligent? Is it conscious? >> >> Have you ever seen the implementation of an adding machine using >> cellular automata? (Game of Life, etc.) It's an interesting setup >> because the CA rules have nothing at all to do with counting or the >> operation of addition - however the CA rules can still be exploited to >> do interesting and useful computation. Neurons may be bound by >> analogous rules as the CA cells, but we still somehow exploit the >> function of groups of neurons to convince ourselves that we're >> intelligent and conscious of that belief. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 08:16:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 04:16:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Whitewash In-Reply-To: <55E40FCD-AD1D-4087-A20E-681C7563C75E@gmail.com> References: <55E40FCD-AD1D-4087-A20E-681C7563C75E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Yeah, you know I'm not a big fan of JKC politicsposting (even though I > tend left-of-center) but fwiw Rafal totally necroed this thread. > > ### For the past two days I have been clearing the backlog of ExI posts in my inbox and saving some choice bits to comment on. Expect a few more fossils to surface. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 08:28:22 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 04:28:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] quote In-Reply-To: <89D7E0C8-E362-4D2E-A808-EE065E94B355@gmail.com> References: <89D7E0C8-E362-4D2E-A808-EE065E94B355@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:11 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Lol Rafal, you really came in like a plague of locusts today to feast on > the dead threads (I know locusts don't eat carrion but your post had a > biblical vibe so I'm just going with it ok) > > Maybe he just got back from vacation? ### Well, yes there was a short vacation there but mostly it's just way too much work. If everything goes well I'll clock about 4000 hours of work this year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:17:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 08:17:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] words Message-ID: Sometimes when I am reading my mind just speeds by a word because I know what it means and why stop? That means that sometimes I miss the origin of the word itself, which is sometimes quite clear. Pandemic is what we have now, they say - from pandemonium = all demons everywhere. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 14:01:00 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 07:01:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] words In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BEEE64C-B0D3-4787-8FD5-5A9549B4E102@gmail.com> On Mar 12, 2020, at 6:19 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > Sometimes when I am reading my mind just speeds by a word because I know what it means and why stop? That means that sometimes I miss the origin of the word itself, which is sometimes quite clear. > > Pandemic is what we have now, they say - from pandemonium = all demons everywhere. It?s better to verify this, especially since there?s a related word, ?epidemic.? Anyhow, the word doesn?t derive from ?pandemonium?: https://www.etymonline.com/word/pandemic So, it?s much more closely related to ?democracy? or ?demography.? In fact, the ?-demonium? part of the second word derives via Latin from a different Greek word: https://www.etymonline.com/word/pandemonium#etymonline_v_3062 Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 14:06:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:06:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] words In-Reply-To: <1BEEE64C-B0D3-4787-8FD5-5A9549B4E102@gmail.com> References: <1BEEE64C-B0D3-4787-8FD5-5A9549B4E102@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah well, you caught me. Just having a little fun. bill w On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:03 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mar 12, 2020, at 6:19 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > Sometimes when I am reading my mind just speeds by a word because I know > what it means and why stop? That means that sometimes I miss the origin of > the word itself, which is sometimes quite clear. > > Pandemic is what we have now, they say - from pandemonium = all demons > everywhere. > > > It?s better to verify this, especially since there?s a related word, > ?epidemic.? Anyhow, the word doesn?t derive from ?pandemonium?: > > https://www.etymonline.com/word/pandemic > > So, it?s much more closely related to ?democracy? or ?demography.? > > In fact, the ?-demonium? part of the second word derives via Latin from a > different Greek word: > > https://www.etymonline.com/word/pandemonium#etymonline_v_3062 > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 14:59:21 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 07:59:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] words In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <714869A3-18A2-4B85-89E6-878DF167F908@gmail.com> Folk etymologies are often fun. Sometimes they?re just annoying, as in how many people believe ?history? comes from ?his story.? I knew this was wrong because I?d been exposed to Herodotus? famous book. Anyhow, in case you don?t know, ?history? has a much more convoluted history: https://www.etymonline.com/word/history#etymonline_v_12040 Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst On Mar 12, 2020, at 7:14 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Ah well, you caught me. Just having a little fun. bill w > >> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:03 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Mar 12, 2020, at 6:19 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> ? >>> Sometimes when I am reading my mind just speeds by a word because I know what it means and why stop? That means that sometimes I miss the origin of the word itself, which is sometimes quite clear. >>> >>> Pandemic is what we have now, they say - from pandemonium = all demons everywhere. >> >> It?s better to verify this, especially since there?s a related word, ?epidemic.? Anyhow, the word doesn?t derive from ?pandemonium?: >> >> https://www.etymonline.com/word/pandemic >> >> So, it?s much more closely related to ?democracy? or ?demography.? >> >> In fact, the ?-demonium? part of the second word derives via Latin from a different Greek word: >> >> https://www.etymonline.com/word/pandemonium#etymonline_v_3062 >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 15:26:10 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 11:26:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Semiotics and Computability In-Reply-To: References: <62c14241002190632s2bd77693m221e498ae628f038@mail.gmail.com> <810891.561.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62c14241002211048o390425cbi580ae855b8d00624@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well we've been talking about consciousness! Just getting cerebral again in general. This whole Searle clusterfuck was probably the most fun I ever had on the list and was a long period of great discussions. And I'm interested to see what people might have to add after a ten year break from the topic :3 On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:15 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So what part of "this" do you think should come around once per decade? > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 11:46 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think it's time for this again >> >> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:49 PM Mike Dougherty wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Gordon Swobe >>> wrote: >>> > Sense data seems like the obvious place to look for that help: the man >>> in the room has no access to sense data from the outside world, so perhaps >>> that explains why he cannot attach meanings to the symbols he manipulates. >>> But when we look at how computers get sense data, we see that sense data >>> also amounts to nothing more than meaningless patterns of 1's and 0's. >>> > >>> > At this point Stathis throws up his hands and proclaims that Searle >>> preaches that human brains do something "magical". But that's not it at >>> all. The CRA merely illustrates an ordinary mundane fact: that the human >>> brain has no special place in the nature as a supposed "digital computer". >>> The brain has the same ordinary non-digital status as other products of >>> biological evolution, objects like livers and hearts and spleens and nuts >>> and watermelons. It just happens to be one very smart melon. >>> >>> So your gripe is with the digital part of computers? Suppose analog >>> computers had become the dominant technology, would you still be >>> complaining that they can't be meaningfully intelligent because >>> they're merely machines lacking the quintessence that makes human >>> consciousness? (opening yourself to potshots about the requirement of >>> a soul) >>> >>> Suppose I replicate the IO transformation of CR using a complex series >>> of tubes and buckets filled by an eternally replenished aquifer? >>> There's no digital zombie-ism to preclude intelligence, can can my >>> Rube Goldberg water wheel be intelligent? Is it conscious? >>> >>> Have you ever seen the implementation of an adding machine using >>> cellular automata? (Game of Life, etc.) It's an interesting setup >>> because the CA rules have nothing at all to do with counting or the >>> operation of addition - however the CA rules can still be exploited to >>> do interesting and useful computation. Neurons may be bound by >>> analogous rules as the CA cells, but we still somehow exploit the >>> function of groups of neurons to convince ourselves that we're >>> intelligent and conscious of that belief. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 16:22:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:22:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves Message-ID: Usually when stocks go down bonds go up, especially high quality low risk bonds, but not this time, this time everything is down, even the price of gold is down. I'm not sure what that means but it's definitely weird and a bit concerning. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 16:28:46 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:28:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John- This is a full blown financial panic similar to 2008-2009. EVERYTHING is being sold without fail. Even interest rate sensitive securities like utilities have been sold all the way down here despite the decline in interest rates. FWIW, I am a heavy buyer of US equities at these levels. On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:24 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Usually when stocks go down bonds go up, especially high quality low risk > bonds, but not this time, this time everything is down, even the price of > gold is down. I'm not sure what that means but it's definitely weird and a > bit concerning. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 17:47:29 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:47:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Slowing down the virus spread Message-ID: It is widely reported that COVID-19 remains infectious for a long time on metal and other hard surfaces and a much shorter time on porous surfaces such as cloth and wood. If this is the case, then wrapping door handles and covering other places people touch with cloth should reduce the spread of the virus. Keith From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 23:10:42 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 17:10:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found In-Reply-To: <20200305092728.Horde.6oUsryKSsYUVISn_32hVSxo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200305092728.Horde.6oUsryKSsYUVISn_32hVSxo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Hi Stathis and Stuart, Thanks for your continued responses. I apologize for taking so long to get back. Things have been extremely busy with work and personal life. I?m finally finding time to reply to both of your responses. On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 10:31 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Brent Allsop: > > > Hi Stuart, > > Thanks for the feedback on my terminology. That really helps. > > But, it would help if you could provide more evidence that you understand > > why I'm using the terminology I am. > > Much of what you are saying is evidence to me you don't yet understand > the > > model I'm trying to describe and what "qualia blindness" means. > > The simple fact that you are unsure whether I understand you or not > indicates that you yourself are qualia blind. Moreover, the fact that > your model is itself an abstraction indicates that your model is > qualia blind. The sad truth is that your terminology and model have no > physical qualities at all. They are just pictures and words composed > of Shannon information i.e. literal bits on a bitmap projected on my > screen and therefore qualia blind no matter how sublime and wondrous > they may be in your own head. > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 9:28 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> "Qualia blindness" sounds too pejorative to be useful as a term of > >> art. You should stop using it especially since you tend to apply it to > >> people who disagree with you and you have so much trouble explaining > >> what it means. Perhaps "qualia denial" or "qualia denier" would be a > >> better and more accurate term, since even Daniel Dennett experiences > >> qualia, even though he doesn't believe them to be important. > >> > > > > Saying this kind of stuff is strong evidence that you still don't > > understand the model I'm trying to describe. > > Maybe it is because your description contradicts itself. Your > description is merely abstract and has none of the physical qualities > that it extols. Robots 1 & 2 claim that they experience physical > qualities when seeing a strawberry, but a robot could be programmed to > say that using a simple lookup table, regardless of it being true or > not. Since there is no way for robots 1 and 2 to use abstract words > and rules of grammar to prove that they see qualia, they are > ultimately no different than robot 3 who simply admits that his > knowledge is abstract. Especially since robot 3 might be lying too > because he is afraid somebody might try to "fix" him if he displays > signs of consciousness. Therefore there is no way for you to > communicate ANY model that is not qualia blind since communication > requires abstraction and information and therefore qualia blind. > > > "Qualia Blindness" is similar to the "pejorative" term "Naive Realism". > > That fact that it is "pejorative" doesn't really matter compared to the > > facts it is describing. In fact, some people think the fact that "Naive > > Realism" is factually "Naive" is a good thing > > . I would bet that > John > > would agree that his view is 'qualia blind' and that he is perfectly OK > > with using one word for all things 'red' as he has indicated multiple > > times. And of course, saying you should ignore qualia, as Dennett does, > is > > the very definition of being qualia blind. Dennett openly admits that. > > How does the number of words one uses to to describe "all things red" > matter in the slightest? Words are words. That your model uses a > thousand of words to try to explain redness does not make your model > any less qualia blind than the single word "red". > > > Qualia blindness is as qualia blindness does. If you only have one word, > > for all things red, that is, by definition, qualia blindness. It is > simply > > a fact that having one word for all things 'red' tells you nothing of the > > actual physical qualities of any of the many things it is a label for. > > Having a model (and the language of such) of the physical world that > > ignores, or does not include qualia, is, by definition, qualia blind. > If > > you don't like the term "qualia blind" then every time I use it please > > substitute it with: "Have amy model of physical reality that does not > > include objectively observable qualia." Or anyone that claims we should > > "quine qualia" and so on. > > Again your model is composed of words and pictures all of which are > mere abstract Shannon information and and therefore devoid of > objectively observable qualia. Your model is just as qualia blind as > all the models that it presumes to criticize on that account. > > >> Not at all. Inverted perception in no way proves that qualia are not > >> "phantasms of the mind" to use Newton's terminology. In fact, the > >> rewiring I described between the retina and the visual cortex is > >> specifically in reference to the signalling pathway model. > >> > > > > More evidence you are not understanding what I'm trying to say. If you > put > > a red green signal inverter in the optic nerve > > >, > > The light and the "L-cone" will be firing 'red', but the knowledge will > not > > have a redness quality, it will have a greeness quality. This fact > > necessarily proves that neither the L-cone, nore the 'red' light, (as you > > are claiming) have anything to do with the physical quality of knowledge > > (since it isn't redness, it is greeness when the inverter is in place). > > Criss-crossing the neural pathways is the only technologically > feasible way that an inline red-green inverter could work. I doubt > that the signal transduced from an L-cone is all that different from > the signal transduced from an M-cone except with regard to the > specific pathway it takes from the retina to the visual cortex. > Sending one cone's signal down the other cone's pathway will trigger > greenness in response to red. > > So how does your red-green signal inverter work? Magic? > > > I'm in a different camp > > . > Functionalist > > are the only ones with a "hard problem" which they have no idea how to > > address, let alone having any way of verifying what they think must be. > > While my prediction is that they will first falsify "glutamate" as being > > the same as "redness" and then experimentalists will substitute glutamate > > with something else physical. > > I am not so certain about the "substrate independence" of specific > qualia. While there is no reason why a simulated brain could not > produce qualia, there is also no checksum to verify the fidelity of > any simulated qualia. I suppose that any particular quale could be > reproduced in many different substrates but would be the highest > fidelity in its native substrate. Kind of like using a virtual machine > to run Windows on a Mac. It works but not quite as well as a native > installation on a PC. So would that be partial substrate independence? > > > Your "signalling pathway model" is a great > > model. It's about the only prediction of what qualia are that nobody has > > created a camp for yet. Experimental results could certainly verify it > is > > a "readiness pathway" that we experience as redness right? Would you be > > willing to help us create a "signalling pathway model" camp, so > > experimentalists have another way to test for this qualia possibility? > > Thanks. As I have mentioned before, it is part of a larger theory on > the emergent properties of synergistic systems. I suppose I could > write something up specifically in reference to qualia. > > > But > > if experimentalists found a particular "pathway" that always resulted in > > subjective redness, then this same "pathway" would always produce the > same > > redness no matter what brain it was in, right? > > Not necessarily. Redness is likely to be learned knowledge and the > specific neurons and synapses involved would have been stochastically > trained during development. So I would expect variation between > different subjects as to the specific neurons involved but relative > consistency within any given subject over repeated trials suing the > same color. > > > >> Reframing the "the hard mind-body problem" as the "color problem" does > >> not help in the slightest because the "color problem" has remained > >> unsolved for over 300 years and was first voiced by Isaac Newton in > >> the 17th century. > > > > Exactly, and the only reason is, is because everyone has been, to date, > > qualia blind. Non of the sub camps of RQT can be falsified as long as > all > > experimentalists are qualia blind. To me, most of the theories and all > the > > religious stuff, are what I think of as 'crap in the gap'. (similar to > the > > idea of the God of the Gaps in evolutionary theory) As long as we can't > > falsify things, people can believe any crap they want to believe. Qualia > > blind people "correct" for any physical differences observed in the > brain, > > labeling it all with the single word 'red'. Again, doing this makes one > > blind to any different physical qualities they may be detecting. As long > > as experimentalists continue to do this, they can't falsify any of the > sub > > camps to RQT. > > Qualia blindness is likely an inescapable state of affairs. Simply > creating a model that claims the existence of physical qualities does > not magically grant one the ability to identify or manipulate them nor > cause them to exist. Qualia are much like the Tao in that the redness > that can be spoken of, or described in a model, is not the true redness. > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 23:21:00 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 18:21:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <1559B330-E67B-4560-8933-5AB8343597A7@gmail.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <006c01d5f619$bbf81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> <1559B330-E67B-4560-8933-5AB8343597A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <30A5BA35-B47E-4D84-9222-00FC0F2340F3@gmail.com> On a personal note, RIP, my roommates work is closed until this is all over. SR Ballard > On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:06 PM, SR Ballard wrote: > > The drop in oil prices is going to be horrible for my local economy. :( The lack of undocumented workers was bad enough... > > SR Ballard > >> On Mar 9, 2020, at 1:53 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > Low interest rates seduce the US government into borrowing more and more money. In addition, plenty of homeowners have borrowed money against their homes at low interest rates, hoping to invest in the stock market with their equity. This sets up a ticking time-bomb. >> >> Low interest rates like we have now means there is a HUGE pile of money wanting to be loaned out and a much smaller pile of investors wanting to borrow money. And a small inflation rate like we have now means there are more machines that are making things that people want to buy than there are machines that are making dollar bills. Incidentally just today the price of West Texas Intermediate Crude Oil dropped by 22%, the largest one day drop in history. So it looks like inflation isn't going to be a big problem anytime soon but don't celebrate too much, inflation wasn't a big problem in 1929 either. Speaking of 1929, the market hasn't closed yet but as of right now the Dow Jones Industrial Average is down over 2100 points. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 23:23:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 18:23:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] memory Message-ID: Does anyone remember our country closing so many things, college and pro sports, even Disneyland, without going all the way back to WWII? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 00:36:19 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 20:36:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Semiotics and Computability In-Reply-To: References: <62c14241002190632s2bd77693m221e498ae628f038@mail.gmail.com> <810891.561.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <62c14241002211048o390425cbi580ae855b8d00624@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I am disappointed to note that while rereading my own post that you replied to i was struck by how much better was the writing then. I know many people lament the descent of the list from its heyday... but i wonder how much personal responsibility any of us take for letting attention and commitment to quality suffer. Other than that, i still like the idea of an analog computer powered by an endlessly refilling fountain. On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 11:28 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well we've been talking about consciousness! Just getting cerebral again > in general. This whole Searle clusterfuck was probably the most fun I ever > had on the list and was a long period of great discussions. And I'm > interested to see what people might have to add after a ten year break from > the topic :3 > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:15 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> So what part of "this" do you think should come around once per decade? >> >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 11:46 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I think it's time for this again >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:49 PM Mike Dougherty wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Gordon Swobe >>>> wrote: >>>> > Sense data seems like the obvious place to look for that help: the >>>> man in the room has no access to sense data from the outside world, so >>>> perhaps that explains why he cannot attach meanings to the symbols he >>>> manipulates. But when we look at how computers get sense data, we see that >>>> sense data also amounts to nothing more than meaningless patterns of 1's >>>> and 0's. >>>> > >>>> > At this point Stathis throws up his hands and proclaims that Searle >>>> preaches that human brains do something "magical". But that's not it at >>>> all. The CRA merely illustrates an ordinary mundane fact: that the human >>>> brain has no special place in the nature as a supposed "digital computer". >>>> The brain has the same ordinary non-digital status as other products of >>>> biological evolution, objects like livers and hearts and spleens and nuts >>>> and watermelons. It just happens to be one very smart melon. >>>> >>>> So your gripe is with the digital part of computers? Suppose analog >>>> computers had become the dominant technology, would you still be >>>> complaining that they can't be meaningfully intelligent because >>>> they're merely machines lacking the quintessence that makes human >>>> consciousness? (opening yourself to potshots about the requirement of >>>> a soul) >>>> >>>> Suppose I replicate the IO transformation of CR using a complex series >>>> of tubes and buckets filled by an eternally replenished aquifer? >>>> There's no digital zombie-ism to preclude intelligence, can can my >>>> Rube Goldberg water wheel be intelligent? Is it conscious? >>>> >>>> Have you ever seen the implementation of an adding machine using >>>> cellular automata? (Game of Life, etc.) It's an interesting setup >>>> because the CA rules have nothing at all to do with counting or the >>>> operation of addition - however the CA rules can still be exploited to >>>> do interesting and useful computation. Neurons may be bound by >>>> analogous rules as the CA cells, but we still somehow exploit the >>>> function of groups of neurons to convince ourselves that we're >>>> intelligent and conscious of that belief. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Mar 12 16:17:32 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:17:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dodged the bullet maybe Message-ID: <20200312091732.Horde.j_kOVJOJc2h5CUZeNkKBt8n@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > Who quoted >> I don't see anything to suggest this is an engineered virus, and I see no >> need to conjure up weird hypothesis to explain a new virus suddenly >> appearing in the human population. This sort of thing has been occurring for >> thousands of years. And the researchers in The Lancet article >> specifically say: >> >> *"2019-nCoV is sufficiently divergent from SARS-CoV to be considered a new >> human-infectin betacoronavirus. Although our phylogenetic analysis >> suggests that bats might be the original host of this virus, an animal sold >> at the seafood market in Wuhan might represent an intermediate host >> facilitating the emergence of the virus in humans." * >> >> ### China vloggers (ADV China, laowhy86) say that while the Wuhan market > is filthy, they don't actually sell bats there. On the other hand, bats > were reportedly used in research at the Wuhan lab. My guess is that > somebody at the lab got accidentally infected, perhaps just inhaling bat > saliva or poop, and that's how it all started, with a low likelihood that > the virus was in some way manipulated at the lab. The meat market story is > just an attempt to deflect attention and blame from a government lab. At first I did not want to believe this but after doing some digging, I found a lot of circumstantial evidence. So you might be right about this. It is of note that bats don't appear on this menu of animals sold at the exotic meat market at Wuhan although civets do and they were implicated as an intermediary early on. https://mustsharenews.com/wuhan-market-animals-menu/ But if bats are NEVER sold at the Wuhan market because bats are not popular cuisine in the area, then how did the civets catch it from what bats? Also on reflection, that doesn't make much sense. Bats are much more closely related to humans than civets are so if anything, it would have made the virus less likely to infect humans. This is especially true because SARS-CoV-2 spike protein has a lower affinity for civet ACE-2 than SARS-CoV-1's spike protein does. In graduate school, I had a frequent lunch partner named Debbie something-or-other. She was a biologist who studied bats. It came up that bats and primates are rather closely related. I asked her why bats weren't more often used as model organisms in medical research labs since many species are as small as mice with wings. She replied that they lived too long, 25 years on average. They take too long to effectively pure-breed taking a year or more between generations so in the end they are no more convenient than primates. Now I would add that they are crazy reservoirs of over 200 viral disease: https://www.nature.com/articles/cddiscovery201648 https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-virology-110615-042203?utm_source=TrendMD_Collection&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Virus&utm_content=ZOO Curiously, I found an archived pre-print of a manuscript on the Wayback Machine by a legit Chinese scientist that describe your scenario in some detail, but curiously the manuscript has since disappeared without a trace. https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus by this guy: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ap6QWmcAAAAJ&hl=en Hopefully Dr. Xiao himself has not been disappeared by the Chinese government. So all that does lend credibility to lab-accident-zoonotic-transfer hypothesis for the origin of COVID-19. There is quite a bit of evidence AGAINST the notion that the virus itself is engineered or artificial. To put it succinctly, SARS-CoV-2 is different enough from SARS-CoV-1 to make it highly unlikely that someone could have generated it artificially. Stuart LaForge From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 04:15:29 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 22:15:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found In-Reply-To: <20200305092728.Horde.6oUsryKSsYUVISn_32hVSxo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200305092728.Horde.6oUsryKSsYUVISn_32hVSxo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Hi Stuart, On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 10:31 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > Saying this kind of stuff is strong evidence that you still don't > > understand the model I'm trying to describe. > > Maybe it is because your description contradicts itself. Your > description is merely abstract and has none of the physical qualities > that it extols. Robots 1 & 2 claim that they experience physical > qualities when seeing a strawberry, but a robot could be programmed to > say that using a simple lookup table, regardless of it being true or > not. Since there is no way for robots 1 and 2 to use abstract words > and rules of grammar to prove that they see qualia, they are > ultimately no different than robot 3 who simply admits that his > knowledge is abstract. Especially since robot 3 might be lying too > because he is afraid somebody might try to "fix" him if he displays > signs of consciousness. Therefore there is no way for you to > communicate ANY model that is not qualia blind since communication > requires abstraction and information and therefore qualia blind. > This last statement is basically saying that qualia are ineffable, right? Representational Qualia Theory predicts science will prove what you are saying here, especially this last sentence, to be false. Evidently you've missed the many times I've attempted to describe the week, stronger, and strongest forms of effing the ineffable, which if achieved by science will falsify what you are saying. The weakest form is when you have an unfalsifiable dictionary such as the word 'red' being a label for anything that reflects or emits red light. Redness is a different word, and a different label for an intrinsic quality of something in our brain we can be directly aware of. If we objectively observed whatever it is that has this intrinsic redness quality, we would end up with only what you call "words composed of Shannon information" which, by definition, are purposely abstracted away from any physical qualities. Without a dictionary, defining which words are labels for which physical qualities, you can't know what they mean. This would be much like the abstract words we use to label glutamate, and to describe glutamate behavior in a synapse. It is a hypothetical possibility that the word redness and glutamate, are labels for the same intrinsic physical qualities. If this is the case, when glutamate is correctly bound into someone's consciousness, it would reliably always produce the same redness experience. If no "function", and no "signaling pathway", and non of the other theories predicting the nature of redness could ever result in anyone experiencing redness. And if glutamate, was the only physical thing in the known universe that had redness. We would have our unfalsifiable dictionary, for the word redness and glutamate. Given such an unfalsifiable dictionary, when you first endowed robot number 3 with knowledge made of glutamate, it could say something like: "oh THAT is what redness/glutamate is physically like" And if glutamate = redness is falsified, (i.e. someone experiences redness with no glutamate present) RQT says to just keep iterating through all possible theories of what redness is, including theories that it could be some 'pathway', till you find one that can't be falsified. And THAT is what will reliably be the physical definition of 'redness'. And, yes, one word 'red' for all things red, will not be sufficient to model an effing of the ineffable statement like "my redness is like your grenness, which we both call red", and because of that would be considered qualia blind. While a model that has two words, red and redness, and unfalsifiable physical definitions for each, that would not be qualia blind. And such an ability to reliably eff the ineffable would falsify your statement that basically claims qualia are ineffable. > > Your "signalling pathway model" is a great > > model. It's about the only prediction of what qualia are that nobody has > > created a camp for yet. Experimental results could certainly verify it > is > > a "readiness pathway" that we experience as redness right? Would you be > > willing to help us create a "signalling pathway model" camp, so > > experimentalists have another way to test for this qualia possibility? > > Thanks. As I have mentioned before, it is part of a larger theory on > the emergent properties of synergistic systems. I suppose I could > write something up specifically in reference to qualia. > That would be wonderful! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 07:46:10 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:46:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmism and the possibility of technological resurrection: David Wood Message-ID: Cosmism and the possibility of technological resurrection: David Wood David Wood has written a thoughtful essay, titled ?Might future humans resurrect the dead?,? mostly dedicated to my book and our video chat on ?Cosmism and the Future of Religion.? https://turingchurch.net/cosmism-and-the-possibility-of-technological-resurrection-david-wood-e6d63e26ab93 From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 09:26:24 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 05:26:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:36 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John- > > This is a full blown financial panic similar to 2008-2009. EVERYTHING is > being sold without fail. Even interest rate sensitive securities like > utilities have been sold all the way down here despite the decline in > interest rates. FWIW, I am a heavy buyer of US equities at these levels. > ### I am thinking about maxing out my home equity line and buying airline stocks, Tesla, S&P 500, or whatever. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Mar 13 09:27:57 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 09:27:57 +0000 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c96df67-b6ea-d605-1641-51dbbc7373a9@zaiboc.net> On 10/03/2020 17:10, Dylan Distasio wrote: > we have zero idea of how bad the outbreak is in the US, and now need > to depend on hoping we get lucky which I'm not a fan of. > > For the amount of tax I pay, I do expect some kind of proper response > in this relatively unlikely scenario where a centralized, coordinated > effort is helpful. Short of having a superabundance of test kits (and perhaps not even then, given how a test is likely to work (detecting antibodies, which take time to develop in an infected person)), I doubt if there is any way anyone can know how widespread this virus is. The thing that no-one seems to be talking about is the significance of the 14-day latency period. How can you track something when you're always 14 days behind it? Waiting until someone shows any symptoms before they are advised to isolate themselves is waaaay too late. They've already had two entire weeks to spread the damn thing. How many people does the average commuter get within a few feet of in two weeks? Hundreds? A thousand? There is no proper response, except to tell everyone to isolate themselves immediately, regardless of whether they have symptoms or have been in a 'high-risk area' (which is probably a meaningless phrase, by now). While that may be a proper response in medical terms, it's totally impractical, and would wreck the economy. So, there is no solution except to let it play out, and get a vaccine out asap. I reckon it will continue to spread until everyone has it, and millions of people will probably die from it. Then it will fade into the background. The survivors will survive because they have immunity, not because they're never been exposed to it. 'Getting lucky' in this case means having a good immune system (which usually means not being old). Until a vaccine becomes available, the only thing you can do is make sure your background health is as high as possible, and don't do anything that could weaken your immune system. If you don't have to travel, don't. If you don't have to socialise, don't. Maybe that can slow the spread down enough to allow time for a vaccine to be developed and made widely available. But I fully expect that we're all going to get the virus. We can thank Darwin that the fatality rate isn't higher. We might not be so lucky next time. Prove me wrong, please, somebody? -- Ben Zaiboc From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 09:52:36 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 05:52:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Dodged the bullet maybe In-Reply-To: <20200312091732.Horde.j_kOVJOJc2h5CUZeNkKBt8n@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200312091732.Horde.j_kOVJOJc2h5CUZeNkKBt8n@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:20 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Curiously, I found an archived pre-print of a manuscript on the > Wayback Machine by a legit Chinese scientist that describe your > scenario in some detail, but curiously the manuscript has since > disappeared without a trace. > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20200214144447/https:/www.researchgate.net/publication/339070128_The_possible_origins_of_2019-nCoV_coronavirus > by this guy: > https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ap6QWmcAAAAJ&hl=en > > > ### Wow, this dude must have balls of steel, or perhaps no self-preservation instinct. Thanks for finding this pre-print! The vloggers I mentioned previously also spoke of the following scenario: The dramatic drop in reported Wuhan virus infections in China is a piece of masterful manipulation by the CCP. They know it started in their lab, they know they have to shift blame and they know that the virus is most likely not containable. They nevertheless institute draconian quarantine/isolation measures on the whole population while suppressing information about new cases, and claim success - "Look at us, chairman Xi beat the coronavirus!". Meanwhile in the rest of the world, which doesn't have the option of massively lying about everything and making it stick, new cases are exploding. In a few weeks quarantine in China will have to be lifted, since it's not compatible with further functioning of the society, and there will be a flood of new cases - but this time they say "We beat coronavirus but now we are being infected by people coming from outside of China! We are the victims! Look what you have done, you nasty Americans!". As an added bonus, twenty million elderly Chinese dying would take some pressure off the Communist government while leaving the working-age population almost intact. The CCP might come out of this as a winner, if they play their cards right. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 10:01:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 06:01:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <2c96df67-b6ea-d605-1641-51dbbc7373a9@zaiboc.net> References: <2c96df67-b6ea-d605-1641-51dbbc7373a9@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:35 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Prove me wrong, please, somebody? > > ### I am sorry to say it but I agree with you 100%. Wuhan virus will infect most people, will kill a large number and our options for dealing with it are now limited. Social isolation is a good idea, if you can afford it, since it makes it more likely you will contract the virus outside of the main peak of the pandemic, and your chances of getting into an ICU would be better, should you need that kind of treatment. You might even hold out long enough to get a vaccine, although that is a stretch. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 10:40:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 06:40:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:29 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> *Dylan Distasio: This is a full blown financial panic similar to > 2008-2009. EVERYTHING is being sold without fail. Even interest rate > sensitive securities like utilities have been sold all the way down here > despite the decline in interest rates. FWIW, I am a heavy buyer of US > equities at these levels.* > > > *### I am thinking about maxing out my home equity line and buying >> airline stocks, Tesla, S&P 500, or whatever.* > > You're a braver man than I am. In the long term someday airlines will certainly come back but existing airline companies and their stock price might not, and as John Maynard Keynes said "In the long term we're all dead". In 2008 and 1987 and even 1929 there was just economic uncertainty, this time there is biological uncertainty too. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 11:14:02 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 07:14:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worst-Case Estimates Message-ID: Although not released publicly the New York Times has obtained 4 computer projection of the virus made by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, depending on the measures to contain it and exactly how contagious and deadly it is which has not been nailed down exactly. In the worst case scenario. Between 160 million and 214 million people in the U.S. will be infected, between 2.4 million to 21 million will require hospitalization, and 200,000 to 2.4 million people will die of it. We don't know for certain we will get the worst version but it would be prudent to prepare as if we will. Currently there are only 925,000 hospital beds in the USA and most of them are already in use. This is a time for bold action by the government but I don't see it. The Worst-Case Estimate for U.S. Coronavirus Deaths John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 11:43:36 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 07:43:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It depends of course on one's time horizon, but I was with Baron Rothschild buying as the blood flowed through the Street yesterday... It's going to be a bumpy ride for sure though! On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:29 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *Dylan Distasio: This is a full blown financial panic similar to >> 2008-2009. EVERYTHING is being sold without fail. Even interest rate >> sensitive securities like utilities have been sold all the way down here >> despite the decline in interest rates. FWIW, I am a heavy buyer of US >> equities at these levels.* >> >> > *### I am thinking about maxing out my home equity line and buying >>> airline stocks, Tesla, S&P 500, or whatever.* >> >> > You're a braver man than I am. In the long term someday airlines will > certainly come back but existing airline companies and their stock price > might not, and as John Maynard Keynes said "In the long term we're all > dead". In 2008 and 1987 and even 1929 there was just economic uncertainty, > this time there is biological uncertainty too. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 12:14:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:14:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 7:46 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> It depends of course on one's time horizon, but I was with Baron > Rothschild buying as the blood flowed through the Street yesterday...It's > going to be a bumpy ride for sure though!* > Well best of luck, I sincerely hope you make a billion bucks and who knows maybe you will! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 12:18:37 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:18:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, John. Appreciate the sentiment. Stay healthy! On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 8:16 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 7:46 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> It depends of course on one's time horizon, but I was with Baron >> Rothschild buying as the blood flowed through the Street yesterday...It's >> going to be a bumpy ride for sure though!* >> > > Well best of > luck, I sincerely hope you make a billion bucks and who knows maybe you > will! > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 12:25:08 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:25:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 7:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Does anyone remember our country closing so many things, college and pro > sports, even Disneyland, without going all the way back to WWII? > Even during WWII there was college sporting events and Broadway still had plays, they closed down a lot of stuff during the 1918 flu epidemic although not as many as they should have. Or at least that's what I read in books, I don't actually remember it, I was just a kid in 1918. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 13 14:45:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 07:45:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <2c96df67-b6ea-d605-1641-51dbbc7373a9@zaiboc.net> References: <2c96df67-b6ea-d605-1641-51dbbc7373a9@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <00ce01d5f946$006da3f0$0148ebd0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >...Short of having a superabundance of test kits (and perhaps not even then, given how a test is likely to work (detecting antibodies, which take time to develop in an infected person)), I doubt if there is any way anyone can know how widespread this virus is. The thing that no-one seems to be talking about is the significance of the 14-day latency period. How can you track something when you're always 14 days behind it?... Ben Zaiboc -- _______________________________________________ That problem persists even with a superabundance of test kits. Reason: citizens are groomed to the notion that health care is their right and there should be no market controls. As soon as that is in place, everyone wants a test every two weeks. Then every week. Then every time junior sniffles or coughs. Assume widespread testing, the negative-testers mistakenly believe they are immune, subsequently catch the virus, spread it everywhere believing that since they have tested negative they will stay negative. Rafal is a doctor. He likely has some stories to tell about patients who see all the correct facts and somehow jump to stunningly illogical conclusions. I agree with Ben, perhaps more than Ben agrees with Ben. Testing will not solve this problem, and may make it worse. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 13 15:09:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:09:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f101d5f949$6ac96510$405c2f30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 5:25 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] memory On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 7:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > Does anyone remember our country closing so many things, college and pro sports, even Disneyland, without going all the way back to WWII? Even during WWII there was college sporting events and Broadway still had plays, they closed down a lot of stuff during the 1918 flu epidemic although not as many as they should have. Or at least that's what I read in books, I don't actually remember it, I was just a kid in 1918. John K Clark Just a kid in 1918: me too! I have fond memories of Jolson?s experiments with the talkies. The hit the stock market is taking right now caused me to realize how much of the US economy is tied somehow to entertainment. I am hetero to the core (as far as I know) but don?t follow sports and never have. The canceled seasons impacted me not one bit, but to hear the radio yesterday one would think the apocalypse is upon us and we are the wretched sinners facing the wrath of a vengeful deity. Sheesh, it?s a gaddam BALL GAME fer cryin out loud. Grown men hurling an orb thru an elevated hoop to the wild cheering of brain-dead throngs. Well I flatly refuse to be a throng. But it does bring up a question: if wildly-cheering throngs are crowds, is a throng one person in that crowd or can a throng be a crowd, and if the latter, what is one person in the crowd? A microthrong? And if what if? one is part of the faceless masses, but he looks in the mirror and discovers one has an actual face? The mind boggles. I think I recall a Star Trek episode where Kirk and crew visited a planet where they had solved every problem, resolved every conflict, and the only thing they had left to do was play and entertain each other. The Enterprise crew didn?t like it: not enough conflict. In modern society we create artificial conflict by setting up a terrain-acquisition arena and let our best recreational warriors battle it out while we watch. Sheesh what a world. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 13 15:37:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 08:37:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] can't feed em Message-ID: <010c01d5f94d$56b024c0$04106e40$@rainier66.com> California's Silicon Valley is a prosperous area, but it has a few spots where grinding poverty perisists. An associate (widowed mother of 2) was explaining to me a problem they had with her son gaining weight like crazy and she couldn't figure out why, given his diet, which she strictly controls (and knows what she is doing.) I had been with the boy on a scout campout recently: oh MERCY can that kid wolf down the chow, my goodness. He eats like three of me with change left over. Come to find out. she was sending him to school with a nutritionally balanced sack lunch after a nutritionally balanced breakfast, but. he had gotten himself on a list for free lunch without her permission. Then their school started offering free breakfast for those who qualified (he did (secretly.)) So he was eating at home, eating school breakfast, eating school lunch in addition to his own from-home lunch, then coming home for a fifth meal in the evening. Adipose resulted. I wouldn't have learned of it but for a thorny problem our local school system faces. The district where my associate's children attend school have nearly half their students eligible for free lunch and free breakfast (she lives in a scary neighborhood down there.) The school building where we have our scout meetings hangs in the balance: they are contemplating closure. If they do, we must suspend our scout meetings for lack of a venue. Our local school district has already put in place remote-learning options should they close, which will happen if even one local corona virus case is found, even if not a school employee or student. We have Skype and FaceTime, and every student has access to internet from home as far as we know. However. a few of the local families are partially dependent on that school to feed their children one meal a day (we don't have free breakfast at this school.) The San Jose school district previously mentioned is intensely dependent on school to feed their children. Both districts are heavily dependent on providing free daycare for their children while the parents work their asses off. In one form or another, both districts have said they have no idea how to provide these social services to the families who have come to depend on them in the event of a corona-related shutdown. A school is not set up to prepare and deliver meals, or to provide babysitters. I didn't realize how big a problem we have until I heard of someone in that situation. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 16:01:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:01:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] memory In-Reply-To: <00f101d5f949$6ac96510$405c2f30$@rainier66.com> References: <00f101d5f949$6ac96510$405c2f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike is not the only guilty person here: others have referred to people liking to play sports, attend games, and so on, as idiots brain dead, and worse. I could probably come up with some Freudian reasons for these feelings, but would like to hear from the people who hold them. I have not seen any other groups of people put down like this, who have different likes in movies or books or just anything. Only sports. It happens to be true: people who are very against, even violently against homosexuality, experience more penile engorgement than other heterosexuals, as measured by Penile plethysmography (PPG) or phallometry when viewing homosexual acts, compared to other heterosexuals. Uhoh! So people who don't just ignore sports, but who have to go out of their way to put down sports fans, may have something in their unconscious they may not like at all. Secret feelings of inadequacy re sports, perhaps? Fox and grapes? Protesting too much, like Lear's daughters, means the opposite, right? Reaction formations. "I am hetero all the way. Nobody is more hetero than me!" bill w On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 10:11 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, March 13, 2020 5:25 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* John Clark > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] memory > > > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 7:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Does anyone remember our country closing so many things, college and > pro sports, even Disneyland, without going all the way back to WWII? > > > > Even during WWII there was college sporting events and Broadway still had > plays, they closed down a lot of stuff during the 1918 flu epidemic > although not as many as they should have. Or at least that's what I read in > books, I don't actually remember it, I was just a kid in 1918. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > Just a kid in 1918: me too! I have fond memories of Jolson?s experiments > with the talkies. > > > > The hit the stock market is taking right now caused me to realize how much > of the US economy is tied somehow to entertainment. I am hetero to the > core (as far as I know) but don?t follow sports and never have. The > canceled seasons impacted me not one bit, but to hear the radio yesterday > one would think the apocalypse is upon us and we are the wretched sinners > facing the wrath of a vengeful deity. Sheesh, it?s a gaddam BALL GAME fer > cryin out loud. Grown men hurling an orb thru an elevated hoop to the wild > cheering of brain-dead throngs. > > > > Well I flatly refuse to be a throng. But it does bring up a question: if > wildly-cheering throngs are crowds, is a throng one person in that crowd or > can a throng be a crowd, and if the latter, what is one person in the > crowd? A microthrong? And if what if? one is part of the faceless masses, > but he looks in the mirror and discovers one has an actual face? The mind > boggles. > > > > I think I recall a Star Trek episode where Kirk and crew visited a planet > where they had solved every problem, resolved every conflict, and the only > thing they had left to do was play and entertain each other. The > Enterprise crew didn?t like it: not enough conflict. In modern society we > create artificial conflict by setting up a terrain-acquisition arena and > let our best recreational warriors battle it out while we watch. Sheesh > what a world. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 13 16:33:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 09:33:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] memory In-Reply-To: References: <00f101d5f949$6ac96510$405c2f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005101d5f955$11f1bfd0$35d53f70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] memory >?Spike is not the only guilty person here: others have referred to people liking to play sports, attend games, and so on, as idiots brain dead, and worse. Heh. Why that bad old spike. {8-] Wait how do we know I am not the only guilty person here? I might be. {8^D ? >?Protesting too much, like Lear's daughters, means the opposite, right? Reaction formations. "I am hetero all the way. Nobody is more hetero than me!" bill w BillW, your post gave me a hell of an idea: we could create a hetero contest, with home test kits. If I am heteroer than thou, perhaps we can find a way to have a showdown. How cool would it be to figure out a kit of some kind, some way people could measure themselves, to size up their own heteroity or heteroism, so they could know what league or division they wish to compete in. We rig up some? well? device of some kind, the contestants watch various genres of pornographic video, get measurements, in the privacy of their homes at first, later in open and invitational tournaments. We could perhpas rig it up to measure response to sporting events too. BillW, there is a buttload of money to be made. If we managed to conceal a camera in the home kits with a transmitter there is a second buttload to be made on leaked video and results of unwitting politicians and ministers and such. Here?s some politically-incorrect humor from a generation ago highlighting the brilliance of Dana Carvey. If one is old enough to have heard Tom Brokaw and Dan Rather, it is even better: https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tom-brokaw-pre-tapes/n10894 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Mar 13 16:35:11 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 16:35:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 pandemic (Was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 23) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77acfd69-969e-76d5-1f2b-7fb6482c2415@zaiboc.net> Rafal: "I am sorry to say it but I agree with you 100%." Spike: "I agree with Ben, perhaps more than Ben agrees with Ben" Erk. I've never been less happy that people whose opinion I respect so much have agreed with me so much! Rather hoped someone would blow holes in my thinking :( I bet the Germans have a word for this complex and embarrassing feeling. ?bereinstimmungentt?uschungsschuldenstolz, perhaps. Also, sorry about the subject line. I meant to change it, but forgot. Ben Zaiboc From john at ziaspace.com Fri Mar 13 16:45:37 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 16:45:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon Message-ID: Hello, everyone, This is a quick note to let people know that we'll be moving our lists from our server in Iceland to a server in our datacenter in Arizona. The US isn't an ideal place for those of us who are privacy conscious, but the cost in the datacenter in Iceland is a bit high. Once we receive the server back and upgrade it, we will likely colocate it again in Iceland or perhaps Finland, or some other country where privacy and the law matter. The transition should be smooth because there will be plenty of overlap between the old and new servers, but if anyone experiences any difficulties, please feel free to email me directly at john at ziaspace.com. The transition is planned to take place at around 4am UTC, or midnight EDT. Thanks! John Klos -- I don't know which scares me more - that people adhere to the idea of an omnipotent being powerful enough to create the universe, but whose supposedly most cherished creation is a race modeled after himself which can't stop hurting and killing each other, or the idea that those same people cannot or will not consider the possibility that the universe is random and unfeeling, and it's up to us to create order and beauty out of chaos and entropy. From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 16:51:00 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:51:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is my likely wrong working hypothesis, but I'd be interested to see who might agree, who might think I'm way off, why, and all that. This is because of the fed "printing" (really, loaning) more money than it ever has, driving up the money supply. Back in the depression, people thought this was a bad thing, that always lead to inflation, so they made the recession far worse, restricting money too much, fearing inflation. But the closer we get to the singularity, and the faster the economy grows, the more we need more money. The fed is finally realizing this. That is why the last one was only the "great recession" not a depression. Yet despite all that money being printed, money is still inflating in value (lack of desired inflation of the cost of goods), because the money supply is failing to keep up with the exponentially accelerating economy. The USD isn't quite there yet, but most currencies now have negative interest rates to hold money in a bank account, for the first time in history. But even this can't get the price of bonds to go up, because there just isn't enough money to keep up with the exponentially accelerating economy. On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 10:24 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Usually when stocks go down bonds go up, especially high quality low risk > bonds, but not this time, this time everything is down, even the price of > gold is down. I'm not sure what that means but it's definitely weird and a > bit concerning. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 16:57:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 12:57:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] memory In-Reply-To: References: <00f101d5f949$6ac96510$405c2f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 12:04 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike is not the only guilty person here: others have referred to people > liking to play sports, attend games, and so on, as idiots brain dead, and > worse. > There is no disputing matters of taste, it's just that I personally don't find watching rich people exercising to be particularly entertaining. That might change if a little imagination was used in devising new sports to make them a bit more colorful, I humbly suggest Javelin Catching, Landmine Golf, and Nuclear Football. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 13 17:14:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:14:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon Hello, everyone, This is a quick note to let people know that we'll be moving our lists from our server in Iceland to a server in our datacenter in Arizona... John, send me the bill. Thanks for carrying the ball on this, me lad. I think it is the right thing. Although I have discovered thru DNA that my own ancestors were from there, they must have had a good reason for them to get out. My theory is they got tired of all the damn ice. Nothing but ice, everywhere they looked. Perhaps they said HEY, the ice age is soooo over, everywhere except HERE! Besides that, we are so inbred out this way, we are practically interchangeable. Let's go to America, breed with outsiders, make piles of money. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 13 17:22:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:22:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] memory In-Reply-To: References: <00f101d5f949$6ac96510$405c2f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008f01d5f95b$f93a8600$ebaf9200$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] memory On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 12:04 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? Spike is not the only guilty person here: others have referred to people liking to play sports, attend games, and so on, as idiots brain dead, and worse. >?There is no disputing matters of taste, it's just that I personally don't find watching rich people exercising to be particularly entertaining. That might change if a little imagination was used in devising new sports to make them a bit more colorful, I humbly suggest Javelin Catching, Landmine Golf, and Nuclear Football. John K Clark John I got in trouble last time for suggesting alternative sports. But hey, it was worth it. We start with the Olympic winter sport biathlon, so popular with the Nordic people. But instead of cross country skiing and shooting at targets, they ski and fire at each other. Sheesh it doesn?t need to be lethal: they can do paintball. That takes care of John?s suggestion the games be a bit more colorful, as well as being fun to watch. As soon as we have that, some crazy yahoo will suggest naked paintball biathlon. Oh the money to be made here, mercy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 17:39:38 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 13:39:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brent- A few comments from the peanut gallery, as I'd like to better understand your argument. I'm not sure how you're defining inflating here. Inflation is generally used in the context of money devaluing, so I'm not sure I understand this sentence correctly. Are you referring to the USD strengthening against other currencies? I'm also not sure how you are defining a money supply not keeping up with an accelerating economy (how are you measuring money supply, and an accelerating economy). On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 12:59 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Yet despite all that money being printed, money is still inflating in > value (lack of desired inflation of the cost of goods), because the money > supply is failing to keep up with the exponentially accelerating economy. > Negative interest rates are strictly a creation of central banks that have allowed them, and banks are forced to hold the paper under regulations. The only way they'll happen in the US is if the Fed decides they want to let them happen. When you say, they can't get the price of bonds to go up, I assume you're referring to yields (interest rates). I'm not trying to be pedantic, just making sure, as the price of bonds has a specific meaning related to where the actual bond is trading at in the market, and bond prices have generally been going up a lot because interest rates continue to fall. I don't know if anyone can say for sure why there is no inflation in interest rates themselves, but if the demand for bonds exceeds the supply, bond prices rise and interest rates/yields fall. This tells me that despite the heavy borrowing of governments like the US which is running a large deficit, there are still few places people feel safe parking their money as they keep funding the US (and others) despite a lousy deal on the interest. If other governments and miscellaneous parties stop buying as heavily, interest rates will rise, but that hasn't happened yet. If there was an actual liquidity crisis (I assume this is what you mean by not enough money, but correct me if I'm not understanding), interest rates would go up quickly. That's what happens whenever borrowing gets hard (implying a lack of liquidity). Financial markets sieze and rates go through the roof to compensate anyone willing to provide funding. With everything in freefall, that's why the Fed just pumped a trillion (yes, not a typo) dollars of short term liquidity into the overnight repo markets (and also announced they would start buying a lot of other assets on their book). > The USD isn't quite there yet, but most currencies now have negative > interest rates to hold money in a bank account, for the first time in > history. But even > this can't get the price of bonds to go up, because there just isn't > enough money to keep up with the exponentially accelerating economy. > > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 10:24 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Usually when stocks go down bonds go up, especially high quality low risk >> bonds, but not this time, this time everything is down, even the price of >> gold is down. I'm not sure what that means but it's definitely weird and a >> bit concerning. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 17:46:23 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:46:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] New type Kaon decay? Message-ID: <5A32FC0F-8455-4301-B3FA-4BF5C8C5EA77@gmail.com> https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.124.071801 Still needs to be verified, but propose Y?s look hopeful. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 18:08:09 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 13:08:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] can't feed em In-Reply-To: <010c01d5f94d$56b024c0$04106e40$@rainier66.com> References: <010c01d5f94d$56b024c0$04106e40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <67E3E155-E3A3-4EA7-9498-E30CAF0BE4DC@gmail.com> The kids at my work, their parents are all ima similar situation. Mostly, my co-workers are the eldest, and will have to quit working to look after the kids. Awkward for 2 reasons: (1) They provide a good portion of the family income, generally ?covering? the utilities. (2) This is the last moment you want to experience a cash crunch. Anyone?s work could close in a moment?s notice. My coworker, or more pointedly, their parents. This is a time where the #1 priority of hourly workers, such as myself, is stockpiling cash and food. We, as a group, do not have savings. I have some, had more, but got engaged 3 weeks ago. Without savings, living paycheck to paycheck, low stores of food in the house, most low-income hourly people (like me, make $13K before taxes in a year) are sweating bullets. Missing 2 days of work can make people in my situation late on rent. 2 weeks out of work means eviction. There?s no way to catch up after all the late fees. We all rent. Often with many roommates. One of my roommates is now out of work until the whole thing blows over. Sure, I can make it. I?m paranoid and always saving money. But other low income earners can not afford to have that bit of their income taken away. Being short on babysitters and food is one thing, but eviction is something else. Here in Texas, some people who pay weekly could be out on the street 7 days after they can?t pay the rent. And even when (if?) those low hourly jobs come back, now the barriers to renting are so very high with an eviction on the record... the cost of renting can nearly double in my local area. Perhaps the US will do something like Italy and ?suspend? payments, but I doubt we would be so lucky. The repercussions of evictions will be quite large. With no work, there?s no money for transient forms of housing. More people living in their cars and on the streets. I?m not saying this WILL happen, of course, but the possibility needs to be confronted. I, like everyone, see the parallels to 2008. But there are other things you can compare it to. None of which are as ?polite? as 2008. Now really is a time where we are going to have to decide if we want a social safety net or not, as a country. Social services have a very real possibility of breaking down, like in spike?s example. What about SNAP (food stamps)? Many people on it live too far from a grocery store to get food is public transit were to be closed. I would be physically unable to get to work without public transit. Etc... SR Ballard > On Mar 13, 2020, at 10:37 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > California?s Silicon Valley is a prosperous area, but it has a few spots where grinding poverty perisists. > > An associate (widowed mother of 2) was explaining to me a problem they had with her son gaining weight like crazy and she couldn?t figure out why, given his diet, which she strictly controls (and knows what she is doing.) I had been with the boy on a scout campout recently: oh MERCY can that kid wolf down the chow, my goodness. He eats like three of me with change left over. > > Come to find out? she was sending him to school with a nutritionally balanced sack lunch after a nutritionally balanced breakfast, but? he had gotten himself on a list for free lunch without her permission. Then their school started offering free breakfast for those who qualified (he did (secretly.)) So he was eating at home, eating school breakfast, eating school lunch in addition to his own from-home lunch, then coming home for a fifth meal in the evening. Adipose resulted. > > I wouldn?t have learned of it but for a thorny problem our local school system faces. The district where my associate?s children attend school have nearly half their students eligible for free lunch and free breakfast (she lives in a scary neighborhood down there.) The school building where we have our scout meetings hangs in the balance: they are contemplating closure. If they do, we must suspend our scout meetings for lack of a venue. Our local school district has already put in place remote-learning options should they close, which will happen if even one local corona virus case is found, even if not a school employee or student. We have Skype and FaceTime, and every student has access to internet from home as far as we know. > > However? a few of the local families are partially dependent on that school to feed their children one meal a day (we don?t have free breakfast at this school.) The San Jose school district previously mentioned is intensely dependent on school to feed their children. Both districts are heavily dependent on providing free daycare for their children while the parents work their asses off. > > In one form or another, both districts have said they have no idea how to provide these social services to the families who have come to depend on them in the event of a corona-related shutdown. A school is not set up to prepare and deliver meals, or to provide babysitters. I didn?t realize how big a problem we have until I heard of someone in that situation. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 20:30:50 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:30:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] one good thing Message-ID: Amazon has deleted over 500K of products that were gouging consumers on products such as masks. Some had upped their price over ten times normal. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 20:32:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:32:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Iceland was so-named to keep people from going there. bill w On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 12:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat > > Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon > > Hello, everyone, > > This is a quick note to let people know that we'll be moving our lists from > our server in Iceland to a server in our datacenter in Arizona... > > > > John, send me the bill. Thanks for carrying the ball on this, me lad. > > I think it is the right thing. Although I have discovered thru DNA that my > own ancestors were from there, they must have had a good reason for them to > get out. My theory is they got tired of all the damn ice. Nothing but > ice, > everywhere they looked. Perhaps they said HEY, the ice age is soooo over, > everywhere except HERE! Besides that, we are so inbred out this way, we > are > practically interchangeable. Let's go to America, breed with outsiders, > make piles of money. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 20:52:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:52:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 pandemic (Was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 23) In-Reply-To: <77acfd69-969e-76d5-1f2b-7fb6482c2415@zaiboc.net> References: <77acfd69-969e-76d5-1f2b-7fb6482c2415@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I bet the Germans have a word for this complex and embarrassing feeling. ?bereinstimmungentt?uschungsschuldenstolz, perhaps. Ben Zaiboc Did you ever read Mark Twain's 'The Awful German Language'? I don't know much German but it's still hilarious. bill w https://www.cs.utah.edu/~gback/awfgrmlg.html On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 11:43 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Rafal: "I am sorry to say it but I agree with you 100%." > > > Spike: "I agree with Ben, perhaps more than Ben agrees with Ben" > > > Erk. > > I've never been less happy that people whose opinion I respect so much > have agreed with me so much! > > Rather hoped someone would blow holes in my thinking :( > > I bet the Germans have a word for this complex and embarrassing feeling. > ?bereinstimmungentt?uschungsschuldenstolz, perhaps. > > Also, sorry about the subject line. I meant to change it, but forgot. > > Ben Zaiboc > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 13 21:39:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:39:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] one good thing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013801d5f97f$d22d61d0$76882570$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] one good thing Amazon has deleted over 500K of products that were gouging consumers on products such as masks. Some had upped their price over ten times normal. bill w Muwaaaahahahaaaaaaa? I stocked up on TP early, before the panic, so that I could make a buttload reselling at absurd prices on the Dark Web. I expect the peak to be reached soon, at which time I shift into phase 2 of my nefarious plan, which is providing a use for all their stockpiled twenty-year supply of TP: I sell them (at a scandalous profit) my stockpiled ExLax. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 21:39:40 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:39:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That also seems to be another folk etymology that?s probably misleading: https://www.icelandreview.com/ask-ir/iceland-name/ And Iceland certainly has its share of snow and ice. And Greenland was probably named when it was greener (especially the region Vikings settled) during to a warmer climate: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/06/iceland-greenland-name-swap/ (I do get the joke: the folk etymology backstory is funny. But let?s take it too seriously.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 13, 2020, at 1:47 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Iceland was so-named to keep people from going there. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 21:40:58 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:40:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <38B7EFBF-17D7-49F3-B26E-0E273D9D3DEC@gmail.com> Thanks to both of you for keeping this venue up. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 13, 2020, at 10:16 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat > > Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon > > Hello, everyone, > > This is a quick note to let people know that we'll be moving our lists from > our server in Iceland to a server in our datacenter in Arizona... > > > > John, send me the bill. Thanks for carrying the ball on this, me lad. > > I think it is the right thing. Although I have discovered thru DNA that my > own ancestors were from there, they must have had a good reason for them to > get out. My theory is they got tired of all the damn ice. Nothing but ice, > everywhere they looked. Perhaps they said HEY, the ice age is soooo over, > everywhere except HERE! Besides that, we are so inbred out this way, we are > practically interchangeable. Let's go to America, breed with outsiders, > make piles of money. > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 22:09:12 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 16:09:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] one good thing In-Reply-To: <013801d5f97f$d22d61d0$76882570$@rainier66.com> References: <013801d5f97f$d22d61d0$76882570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: lol But isn't that a bad thing? If I wanted to pay $100 for TP, I never would, but if I did, possibly for something I'd really want, I'd be very upset at Amazon for denying me that opportunity. That's what supply and demand is, right? Brent On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] one good thing > > > > Amazon has deleted over 500K of products that were gouging consumers on > products such as masks. Some had upped their price over ten times normal. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Muwaaaahahahaaaaaaa? > > > > I stocked up on TP early, before the panic, so that I could make a > buttload reselling at absurd prices on the Dark Web. I expect the peak to > be reached soon, at which time I shift into phase 2 of my nefarious plan, > which is providing a use for all their stockpiled twenty-year supply of TP: > I sell them (at a scandalous profit) my stockpiled ExLax. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 13 22:15:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:15:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: References: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015a01d5f984$d7b1f120$8715d360$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon >?Iceland was so-named to keep people from going there. bill w Hey, that worked on me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 13 22:27:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:27:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] one good thing In-Reply-To: References: <013801d5f97f$d22d61d0$76882570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017101d5f986$8d10a5b0$a731f110$@rainier66.com> From: Brent Allsop Subject: Re: [ExI] one good thing lol >?But isn't that a bad thing? No I don?t think it is. It would be a bad thing If I were price-gouging on counterfeit TP. Amazon is full of counterfeit stuff you know. People would get to the bathroom, not discover until the bogus product was called into service, at which time the hapless prole would perhaps opine thus: aaaaaah shit. >?If I wanted to pay $100 for TP, I never would, but if I did, possibly for something I'd really want, I'd be very upset at Amazon for denying me that opportunity? Sure! If you want 100 dollar TP, I am soooo here for ya. >?That's what supply and demand is, right? Brent Right! Brent since you are a qualia guy you will get this one, the real reason Greenland and Iceland have the names they do. Back in the old days, Erik the Red was actually blue. Ice was green and plants were white. Or at least they were perceived that way. They named the places and the guy who discovered them, but perceptions changed. Now you know? the rest? of the story. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 22:42:12 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:42:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] one good thing In-Reply-To: References: <013801d5f97f$d22d61d0$76882570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes, if you believe in markets it's a terrible thing. Prices ration available supply. Price controls (or this) are never productive in the long term and increase black market transactions and scarcity in legitimate ones... On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 6:10 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > lol > > But isn't that a bad thing? > If I wanted to pay $100 for TP, I never would, but if I did, possibly for > something I'd really want, I'd be very upset at Amazon for denying me that > opportunity. > That's what supply and demand is, right? > Brent > > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* [ExI] one good thing >> >> >> >> Amazon has deleted over 500K of products that were gouging consumers on >> products such as masks. Some had upped their price over ten times normal. >> >> >> >> bill w >> >> >> >> >> >> Muwaaaahahahaaaaaaa? >> >> >> >> I stocked up on TP early, before the panic, so that I could make a >> buttload reselling at absurd prices on the Dark Web. I expect the peak to >> be reached soon, at which time I shift into phase 2 of my nefarious plan, >> which is providing a use for all their stockpiled twenty-year supply of TP: >> I sell them (at a scandalous profit) my stockpiled ExLax. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 22:46:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 17:46:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] one good thing In-Reply-To: References: <013801d5f97f$d22d61d0$76882570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There was no lack of gasoline during the Katrina hurricane disaster, yet prices went way up. And the people that did it got arrested. bill w On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:44 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Yes, if you believe in markets it's a terrible thing. Prices ration > available supply. Price controls (or this) are never productive in the > long term and increase black market transactions and scarcity in legitimate > ones... > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 6:10 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> lol >> >> But isn't that a bad thing? >> If I wanted to pay $100 for TP, I never would, but if I did, possibly for >> something I'd really want, I'd be very upset at Amazon for denying me that >> opportunity. >> That's what supply and demand is, right? >> Brent >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>> *Subject:* [ExI] one good thing >>> >>> >>> >>> Amazon has deleted over 500K of products that were gouging consumers on >>> products such as masks. Some had upped their price over ten times normal. >>> >>> >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Muwaaaahahahaaaaaaa? >>> >>> >>> >>> I stocked up on TP early, before the panic, so that I could make a >>> buttload reselling at absurd prices on the Dark Web. I expect the peak to >>> be reached soon, at which time I shift into phase 2 of my nefarious plan, >>> which is providing a use for all their stockpiled twenty-year supply of TP: >>> I sell them (at a scandalous profit) my stockpiled ExLax. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 22:51:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 17:51:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] name Message-ID: America is not named for Amerigo Vespucci, but his cousin, Amerigo Bestpucci. Look that one up, spoilsport. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 22:57:04 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 16:57:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dylan, Thanks for the reply.. Sorry, my terminology probably isn't the best to communicate what I"m trying to describe, so thanks for asking for clarification. On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 11:41 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Brent- > > A few comments from the peanut gallery, as I'd like to better understand > your argument. > > I'm not sure how you're defining inflating here. Inflation is generally > used in the context of money devaluing, so I'm not sure I understand this > sentence correctly. Are you referring to the USD strengthening > against other currencies? I'm also not sure how you are defining a money > supply not keeping up with an accelerating economy (how are you measuring > money supply, and an accelerating economy). > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 12:59 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Yet despite all that money being printed, money is still inflating in >> value (lack of desired inflation of the cost of goods), because the money >> supply is failing to keep up with the exponentially accelerating economy. >> > My understanding is that the federal reserve uses the price of a basket of good to measure the "inflation rate". Their goal is to create enough money to keep this at about a 2% inflation rate. Which means the USD is deflating (not inflating) in value compared to the goods. > Negative interest rates are strictly a creation of central banks that have > allowed them, and banks are forced to hold the paper under regulations. > The only way they'll happen in the US is if the Fed decides they want to > let them happen. > Right. In times like this (and during the 2008 crash) the fed lowers interest rates, attempting to stimulate the economy. But once they get to zero, it is normally assumed that they can't do any more. But some central banks are now going negative, right? The US ended up doing "quantiative easing" rather than going negative. > When you say, they can't get the price of bonds to go up, I assume you're > referring to yields (interest rates). > My understanding is that the fed dumping more money on the market drives down the yield on new bonds, driving up the price of trading bonds with higher rates? In other words, I was thinking of the fed trying to drive down the yield, which should raise the price of bonds? > I'm not trying to be pedantic, just making sure, as the price of bonds has > a specific meaning related to where the actual bond is trading at in the > market, and bond prices have generally been going up a lot because interest > rates continue to fall. > You are saying bonds have been going up, but I thought John was saying, this normally happens, but isn't happening now? > I don't know if anyone can say for sure why there is no inflation in > interest rates themselves, but if the demand for bonds exceeds the supply, > bond prices rise and interest rates/yields fall. This tells me that > despite the heavy borrowing of governments like the US which is running a > large deficit, there are still few places people feel safe parking their > money as they keep funding the US (and others) despite a lousy deal on the > interest. If other governments and miscellaneous parties stop buying as > heavily, interest rates will rise, but that hasn't happened yet. > > If there was an actual liquidity crisis (I assume this is what you mean by > not enough money, but correct me if I'm not understanding), interest rates > would go up quickly. That's what happens whenever borrowing gets hard > (implying a lack of liquidity). Financial markets sieze and rates go > through the roof to compensate anyone willing to provide funding. With > everything in freefall, that's why the Fed just pumped a trillion (yes, not > a typo) dollars of short term liquidity into the overnight repo markets > (and also announced they would start buying a lot of other assets on their > book). > Right, Is this why John is saying the price of bonds isn't going up? Everyone always seemed to say interest rates will go way up in the future, like they did in the late 70s (12% mortgage rates back then, for example) or else there would be inflation. But no matter how low the feed keeps the interest rates, they still struggle to keep the inflation rate at 2%, right? Has USD inflation ever been over 2%/year since the year 2000? It just seems to me that if we are approaching the singularity, the economy is growing at least at an exponential rate. And if that is true, the money supply must also grow, exponentially, to math. But the fed bankers likely can't comprehend this kind of exponential growth, so constantly error on the side of not printing enough money? And could this be the cause of what John is talking about here? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 22:57:31 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:57:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] one good thing In-Reply-To: References: <013801d5f97f$d22d61d0$76882570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: And? What are your thoughts on Uber peak pricing? When all train service got stopped and I was stuck in Grand Central Terminal, prices immediately tripled for a trip home. I took a pass as I didn't want to pay them. Noone had a gun to my head to take an Uber. When Sandy hit up here, gas cans to carry stuff home for generators were hard to come by. Prices were way above average for any that were left (everything was gone at "normal prices"). I needed both a can and a generator so I paid up for both, and they came in very handy that week with no power where I needed the generator to keep the boiler and refrigerator running. With price controls, there likely would have been none left of either when I got there to look for one. How are you sure that gas was so readily available within a given area, and if so, why weren't people heading to the ones who were not being arrested with lower prices? Speculators are always an easy target. On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 6:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There was no lack of gasoline during the Katrina hurricane disaster, yet > prices went way up. And the people that did it got arrested. bill w > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:44 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Yes, if you believe in markets it's a terrible thing. Prices ration >> available supply. Price controls (or this) are never productive in the >> long term and increase black market transactions and scarcity in legitimate >> ones... >> >> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 6:10 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> lol >>> >>> But isn't that a bad thing? >>> If I wanted to pay $100 for TP, I never would, but if I did, possibly >>> for something I'd really want, I'd be very upset at Amazon for denying me >>> that opportunity. >>> That's what supply and demand is, right? >>> Brent >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>>> *Subject:* [ExI] one good thing >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Amazon has deleted over 500K of products that were gouging consumers on >>>> products such as masks. Some had upped their price over ten times normal. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> bill w >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Muwaaaahahahaaaaaaa? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I stocked up on TP early, before the panic, so that I could make a >>>> buttload reselling at absurd prices on the Dark Web. I expect the peak to >>>> be reached soon, at which time I shift into phase 2 of my nefarious plan, >>>> which is providing a use for all their stockpiled twenty-year supply of TP: >>>> I sell them (at a scandalous profit) my stockpiled ExLax. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> spike >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 23:22:10 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 19:22:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 7:04 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Dylan, > Thanks for the reply.. Sorry, my terminology probably isn't the best to > communicate what I"m trying to describe, so thanks for asking > for clarification. > Well, there is certainly deflation in the system based on things like electronics, computers, and many other goods historically made overseas more cheaply and more efficiently as more automation becomes feasible (cheap labor doesn't hurt!). Energy has also been stable or more recently falling off a cliff due to our global circumstances. That said, overall measures used for inflation don't do a good job of capturing things like rising health care and food costs, at least in the US, for example, in terms of their impact on people's wallets especially when there is nowhere to get safe yield at appreciable amounts. > My understanding is that the federal reserve uses the price of a basket of > good to measure the "inflation rate". Their goal is to create enough money > to keep this at about a 2% inflation rate. Which means the USD is > deflating (not inflating) in value compared to the goods. > > >> Negative interest rates are strictly a creation of central banks that >> have allowed them, and banks are forced to hold the paper under >> regulations. The only way they'll happen in the US is if the Fed decides >> they want to let them happen. >> > Yes, Europe has been negative for a long time at this point. In fact, Warren Buffet very recently priced a corporate bond for 1,000,000,000Euro at ZERO % interest over 5 years. It's literally free money for Berkshire. That can't happen in the US at this point based on the Fed, although there is nothing preventing it. > > Right. In times like this (and during the 2008 crash) the fed lowers > interest rates, attempting to stimulate the economy. But once they get to > zero, it is normally assumed that they can't do any more. But some central > banks are now going negative, right? The US ended up doing "quantiative > easing" rather than going negative. > > >> When you say, they can't get the price of bonds to go up, I assume you're >> referring to yields (interest rates). >> > > Yes, the Fed buys US treasuries to create that money so they add to demand driving down yields (at least on the short end of the duration curve). They have no real control over the long end of the curve, and yes, bonds go up in price as yields fall when trading them in the secondary market. > My understanding is that the fed dumping more money on the market drives > down the yield on new bonds, driving up the price of trading bonds with > higher rates? In other words, I was thinking of the fed trying to drive > down the yield, which should raise the price of bonds? > > When markets dislocate in a big way, there may be very temporary scenarios where even bonds are sold along with stocks as people move completely to cash, but you can see that yields have been falling on treasuries (at least the 10yr Note) all week outside of the stock market rally today which drove yields higher due to people selling bonds and buying stocks: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5ETNX/chart?p=%5ETNX#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%3D%3D > > You are saying bonds have been going up, but I thought John was saying, > this normally happens, but isn't happening now? > > >> I don't know if anyone can say for sure why there is no inflation in >> interest rates themselves, but if the demand for bonds exceeds the supply, >> bond prices rise and interest rates/yields fall. This tells me that >> despite the heavy borrowing of governments like the US which is running a >> large deficit, there are still few places people feel safe parking their >> money as they keep funding the US (and others) despite a lousy deal on the >> interest. If other governments and miscellaneous parties stop buying as >> heavily, interest rates will rise, but that hasn't happened yet. >> >> If there was an actual liquidity crisis (I assume this is what you mean >> by not enough money, but correct me if I'm not understanding), interest >> rates would go up quickly. That's what happens whenever borrowing gets >> hard (implying a lack of liquidity). Financial markets sieze and rates go >> through the roof to compensate anyone willing to provide funding. With >> everything in freefall, that's why the Fed just pumped a trillion (yes, not >> a typo) dollars of short term liquidity into the overnight repo markets >> (and also announced they would start buying a lot of other assets on their >> book). >> > > Again, I'd argue that the measures of inflation in the US are flawed, but there is certainly a lot of deflationary pressure in certain industries, and inflationary pressure in things like healthcare that consume a large portion of consumer's paychecks. If you're talking about interest rates specifically, agreed, they have been in a long term downtrend since 2008 for the most part. > Right, Is this why John is saying the price of bonds isn't going up? > > Everyone always seemed to say interest rates will go way up in the future, > like they did in the late 70s (12% mortgage rates back then, for example) > or else there would be inflation. But no matter how low the feed keeps the > interest rates, they still struggle to keep the inflation rate at 2%, > right? Has USD inflation ever been over 2%/year since the year 2000? > How are you measuring economic growth? GDP (which I'll admit is not perfect) does not indicate exponential growth for any country. Sadly, I also don't see evidence that we are anywhere near the singularity but I realize that is up for debate. > > It just seems to me that if we are approaching the singularity, the > economy is growing at least at an exponential rate. And if that is true, > the money supply must also grow, exponentially, to math. But the fed > bankers likely can't comprehend this kind of exponential growth, so > constantly error on the side of not printing enough money? And could this > be the cause of what John is talking about here? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 23:38:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:38:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] one good thing In-Reply-To: References: <013801d5f97f$d22d61d0$76882570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: dylan wrote How are you sure that gas was so readily available within a given area, and if so, why weren't people heading to the ones who were not being arrested with lower prices? OUtside of New Orleans, southern Louisiana is very rural. I suspect that the reason they didn't go anywhere else was that 1 - they didn't have the gas to get there 2 - they suspected that everyone was gouging and so paid for what was available. bill w On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 6:17 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And? What are your thoughts on Uber peak pricing? When all train service > got stopped and I was stuck in Grand Central Terminal, prices immediately > tripled for a trip home. I took a pass as I didn't want to pay them. > Noone had a gun to my head to take an Uber. > > When Sandy hit up here, gas cans to carry stuff home for generators were > hard to come by. Prices were way above average for any that were left > (everything was gone at "normal prices"). I needed both a can and a > generator so I paid up for both, and they came in very handy that week with > no power where I needed the generator to keep the boiler and refrigerator > running. With price controls, there likely would have been none left of > either when I got there to look for one. > > How are you sure that gas was so readily available within a given area, > and if so, why weren't people heading to the ones who were not being > arrested with lower prices? > > Speculators are always an easy target. > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 6:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> There was no lack of gasoline during the Katrina hurricane disaster, yet >> prices went way up. And the people that did it got arrested. bill w >> >> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:44 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Yes, if you believe in markets it's a terrible thing. Prices ration >>> available supply. Price controls (or this) are never productive in the >>> long term and increase black market transactions and scarcity in legitimate >>> ones... >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 6:10 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> lol >>>> >>>> But isn't that a bad thing? >>>> If I wanted to pay $100 for TP, I never would, but if I did, possibly >>>> for something I'd really want, I'd be very upset at Amazon for denying me >>>> that opportunity. >>>> That's what supply and demand is, right? >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>>>> *Subject:* [ExI] one good thing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amazon has deleted over 500K of products that were gouging consumers >>>>> on products such as masks. Some had upped their price over ten times >>>>> normal. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> bill w >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Muwaaaahahahaaaaaaa? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I stocked up on TP early, before the panic, so that I could make a >>>>> buttload reselling at absurd prices on the Dark Web. I expect the peak to >>>>> be reached soon, at which time I shift into phase 2 of my nefarious plan, >>>>> which is providing a use for all their stockpiled twenty-year supply of TP: >>>>> I sell them (at a scandalous profit) my stockpiled ExLax. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> spike >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 23:43:04 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 19:43:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Testing for the virus Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 10:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *I agree with Ben, perhaps more than Ben agrees with Ben. Testing will > notsolve this problem, and may make it worse.* It's still worth doing but time is critical so extensive testing would not be nearly as effective now as it would have been a month ago by finding virus hot spots and isolating them before they grew exponentially, and because of the Chinese giving us ample warning of what was coming it could have been done but was not, instead leadership in the USA engaged in happy talk and magical thinking. China didn't have the advance warning the USA had but even so was much faster in instituting mass testing than the USA and it looks like such measures are paying off in a dramatic way for them. Yesterday in the city of Wuhan, Ground Zero of the epidemic, only 5 new cases were reported, the second day in a row new cases were in single digits; and in other parts of China some parks have reopened as have all 42 Apple stores in China. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 23:53:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:53:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] soap - Rafal Message-ID: Big article in the NYT about how soap kills viruses, but when I search for 'soap does not kill germs' I find reputable sources that say that it does not. Has anyone ever researched this? Rafal? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 23:58:42 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 16:58:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <580A1D7F-B4BF-4BF0-99CF-82142FFB26FF@gmail.com> This is defining deflation and inflation as some sort of price level or aggregate of prices. Another way of looking at this is to define deflation and inflation in terms of changes in the amount of money in a system. (Then, of course, one has to be careful to figure out what exactly ?money? means to make this definition work. While that introduces problems, I don?t think they?re any worse than those involved with price indices and the like.) A problem with identifying deflation/inflation in terms of prices (or price aggregates) is selecting which prices or how to aggregate them. And this leads to what we see where the tool measure inflation changes to avoid uncomfortable inflation rates (usually because both inflation is seen as bad and because there are often policy triggers for what to do about it). I believe current measures used by the Fed tend to understate inflation and even overstate deflation.* I believe it?s a little incoherent to say the price of, say, mobile phones has deflated while, say, healthcare costs have inflated. (And the general reason why inflation is bad is because it distorts the structure of prices rather than raising them. Of course, rising prices also have other effects, like menu and shoe leather costs, but the big effect is how an increase in money supply flows through an economy ? because some people get the increase in supply first via things like, in a central banking systems, credit and this tends to have path dependency. Were this not so, then the price structure wouldn?t be distorted.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst * I don?t believe deflation is good either. It has distortion effects too, but these tend to be easier to self-correct. Most whinging about deflation in recent decades is really about slowing inflation usually by putting a halt on lowering central bank interest rates like the prime lending rate. In other words, it?s not really about deflation but about disinflation or even just slowing the inflation rate. And big investors tend to whine the most here because a higher interest rate lowers their access to credit. (Typically, the big investors benefit the most from central bank manipulators. This makes sense when you think that they?re the most politically connected, far more likely to access to central bankers, and also likely to have a bigger voice in the media ? all to promote their projects.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 14 01:10:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:10:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] merging @ home Message-ID: <000e01d5f99d$606940f0$213bc2d0$@rainier66.com> Years ago we had SETI at Home, which never turned up anything, a result which astonishes me to this day. The LIGO is another thing that just baffles my beak. Now there is a LIGO version of SETI at Home, which allows proles to search for black hole mergers at home: https://phys.org/news/2020-03-gravitational-candidates-binary-black-hole.html Is that cool or what? How can there be so many black hole mergers this late in the game? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 01:15:58 2020 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 18:15:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: <580A1D7F-B4BF-4BF0-99CF-82142FFB26FF@gmail.com> References: <580A1D7F-B4BF-4BF0-99CF-82142FFB26FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: I own a trading company and we are actually doing fine. My algos take advantage of the volatility. Algos decide to put more weights on longs or shorts. Right now a lot of shorts. But in general we have pretty stable returns and very good sharpe. Algo below trades 3 stocks every day using the stocks picked from NASDAQ 100. On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:01 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This is defining deflation and inflation as some sort of price level or > aggregate of prices. Another way of looking at this is to define deflation > and inflation in terms of changes in the amount of money in a system. > (Then, of course, one has to be careful to figure out what exactly ?money? > means to make this definition work. While that introduces problems, I don?t > think they?re any worse than those involved with price indices and the > like.) > > A problem with identifying deflation/inflation in terms of prices (or > price aggregates) is selecting which prices or how to aggregate them. And > this leads to what we see where the tool measure inflation changes to avoid > uncomfortable inflation rates (usually because both inflation is seen as > bad and because there are often policy triggers for what to do about it). I > believe current measures used by the Fed tend to understate inflation and > even overstate deflation.* > > I believe it?s a little incoherent to say the price of, say, mobile phones > has deflated while, say, healthcare costs have inflated. > > (And the general reason why inflation is bad is because it distorts the > structure of prices rather than raising them. Of course, rising prices also > have other effects, like menu and shoe leather costs, but the big effect is > how an increase in money supply flows through an economy ? because some > people get the increase in supply first via things like, in a central > banking systems, credit and this tends to have path dependency. Were this > not so, then the price structure wouldn?t be distorted.) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > > * I don?t believe deflation is good either. It has distortion effects too, > but these tend to be easier to self-correct. Most whinging about deflation > in recent decades is really about slowing inflation usually by putting a > halt on lowering central bank interest rates like the prime lending rate. > In other words, it?s not really about deflation but about disinflation or > even just slowing the inflation rate. And big investors tend to whine the > most here because a higher interest rate lowers their access to credit. > (Typically, the big investors benefit the most from central bank > manipulators. This makes sense when you think that they?re the most > politically connected, far more likely to access to central bankers, and > also likely to have a bigger voice in the media ? all to promote their > projects.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AveragingMulti3.png Type: image/png Size: 18842 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 02:04:59 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 20:04:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] one good thing In-Reply-To: <017101d5f986$8d10a5b0$a731f110$@rainier66.com> References: <013801d5f97f$d22d61d0$76882570$@rainier66.com> <017101d5f986$8d10a5b0$a731f110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 4:28 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* Brent Allsop > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] one good thing > > >?But isn't that a bad thing? > > > > No I don?t think it is. It would be a bad thing If I were price-gouging > on counterfeit TP. Amazon is full of counterfeit stuff you know. People > would get to the bathroom, not discover until the bogus product was called > into service, at which time the hapless prole would perhaps opine thus: > aaaaaah shit. > > > I can't stop laughing... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Mar 13 20:00:13 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 13:00:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200313130013.Horde._wXw1n4tU6ZQxri1C89RFQw@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Ben Zaiboc: > Until a vaccine becomes available, the only thing you can do is make > sure your background health is as high as possible, and don't do > anything that could weaken your immune system. If you don't have to > travel, don't. If you don't have to socialise, don't. Maybe that can > slow the spread down enough to allow time for a vaccine to be developed > and made widely available. But I fully expect that we're all going to > get the virus. We can thank Darwin that the fatality rate isn't higher. > We might not be so lucky next time. > > Prove me wrong, please, somebody? We could follow Taiwan's lead. Taiwan is an island right off the coast of China with 23 million inhabitants many of whom work on the mainland. Despite their proximity and population density, they only have 50 cases of COVID-19 and 1 death. Yes, they were on top of the epidemic from the very beginning but also of note, the government foresaw the shortage of surgical masks so the government took over production of surgical masks. Note that in the picture everyone is wearing them going about their daily business. If everybody healthy or sick wore a mask all the time in public, the virus would not be able to spread. Let that sink in: only 49 infected out of 23 million people with the Chinese government cyber-attacking them the WHOLE time. We can beat this virus if we stop panicking and just start fighting the virus instead of fighting each other over asinine politics; blaming this political party or that for something that nature did. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/taiwan-sets-world-fight-coronavirus/story?id=69552462 Excerpt: ------------------- Frequent, transparent communication Beyond daily press briefings, top government health officials, including the minister of Health, the vice president and a prominent epidemiologist, regularly gave public service announcements about travel, personal hygiene recommendations and dangers of stockpiling masks -- all accessible online. Both public and private sectors are cooperating with government recommendations, which has proved crucial in the nation's containment efforts. Virtually every mall, store, restaurant and offices offered hand sanitizers and screen people's temperature before entering the building. In addition, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has actively sought out and fought misinformation from both the news media and Chinese cyber attacks. Resource allocations "The government stopped exporting and started producing," Wang said. The government began allocating funds and military personnel to expand its capacity of production. By late January, Taiwan had a stockpile of 44 million surgical masks, 1.9 million N95 masks and 1,100 negative pressure isolation rooms. Masks have always been considered courteous and are used regularly as a protective measure in Asian countries, like Taiwan. But during this public health emergency, demand for face masks has soared. In order to meet the growing demand, the government has taken over production. On Tuesday, President Tsai Ing Wen announced that they are now able to produce up to 10 million masks a day. From john at ziaspace.com Sat Mar 14 05:55:07 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 05:55:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: <015a01d5f984$d7b1f120$8715d360$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d5f984$d7b1f120$8715d360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The migration is done. Please let me know if you have any troubles :) From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 06:28:29 2020 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 23:28:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: References: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d5f984$d7b1f120$8715d360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Gratitude On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:56 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The migration is done. Please let me know if you have any troubles :) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 08:51:46 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 04:51:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] soap - Rafal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 7:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Big article in the NYT about how soap kills viruses, but when I search > for 'soap does not kill germs' I find reputable sources that say that it > does not. > > Has anyone ever researched this? Rafal? > > ### There is *extensive* research on what kills viruses and that's an understatement! And the answer is "It depends". Some viruses, like hepatitis B, are completely immune to soap but other viruses, like, luckily, Wuhan virus, are quite susceptible. Generally hand washing helps in preventing most communicable disease, even if some of it is just mechanical removal of infectious material. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Mar 14 10:20:39 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 10:20:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Awful German Language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0383afea-1163-4f7b-7fcb-7b6694607da1@zaiboc.net> On 13/03/2020 22:57, Bill W wrote: > Did you ever read Mark Twain's 'The Awful German Language'?? I don't > know much German but it's still hilarious.? bill w > > https://www.cs.utah.edu/~gback/awfgrmlg.html I've read it several times. The more German you know, the funnier it gets, I think. And the funniest thing is, even the Germans seem to agree with him. It was a German that told me about it in the first place. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Mar 14 10:54:18 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 10:54:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] soap - Rafal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27dfd4a5-748f-c75c-0cb1-9cc23e06fd66@zaiboc.net> On 14/03/2020 01:16, BillW wrote: > > Big article in the NYT about how soap kills viruses, but when I? > search for 'soap does not kill germs' I find reputable sources that > say that it does not. > > Has anyone ever researched this?? Rafal I suspect the phrase "soap kills viruses" is about as meaningful as the phrase "humans eat tubers". Some humans eat some tubers, some tubers are never eaten by humans, some humans don't eat any tubers, some eat lots of different ones, etc. It probably depends on which soap, and which virus. As soap is a salt of various fatty acids, it can disrupt viral coats that are made of fatty membranes, but not all viruses have coats like that, some are a protein shell instead. Many soaps these days are not actually soap but detergents, which are chemically a slightly different thing, and could have different effects. Coronaviruses do have a lipid envelope as far as I know, so soap could be effective at breaking it down and killing the virus, but the details matter. Probably a good idea to heed the advice to wash your hands for 20 seconds, to give the soap molecules a chance. But washing your hands with soap and water does other useful things besides (possibly) killing (some) viruses. Getting them clean of the dirt which accumulates on them which can contain virus particles, spores and bacteria, for instance. So soap doesn't have to kill viruses for washing to be a good idea -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 14 12:39:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 05:39:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: References: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d5f984$d7b1f120$8715d360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004401d5f9fd$a3119be0$e934d3a0$@rainier66.com> John what do I owe ya? spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 10:55 PM To: spike jones via extropy-chat Cc: John Klos Subject: Re: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon The migration is done. Please let me know if you have any troubles :) _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From john at ziaspace.com Sat Mar 14 15:42:45 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 15:42:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: <004401d5f9fd$a3119be0$e934d3a0$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d5f984$d7b1f120$8715d360$@rainier66.com> <004401d5f9fd$a3119be0$e934d3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > John what do I owe ya? Oh, all of the interesting and nutty discussions on here are payment enough. I'm happy to help support a wonderfully vibrant and geeky community :) John From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 14 16:40:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 09:40:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] nutty discussions? Message-ID: <00ae01d5fa1f$3cc74480$b655cd80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon >>... John what do I owe ya? >...Oh, all of the interesting and nutty discussions on here are payment enough. I'm happy to help support a wonderfully vibrant and geeky community :) John _______________________________________________ Indeed sir? What nutty discussions? Mahatma Ghandhi has said: First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. I am at stage two. Our list serious guy Brent can't stop laughing. But then after stage 3, I shall win, becoming the king of counterfeit TP on the Dark Web. Then as I sit tall on my pile of money, I shall make instructive and charitable comments from up there, such as neener neener neeeeeeenerrrrr. Remember our own Jeff Davis, used to hang out here a lot in the 1990s, always with the big ideas he was. Sold his house, bet long on BitCoin, before the boom. The other day I posted to him: Hey Jeff, haven't seen you since a year ago last summer. Do post me a recent picture, me lad. He sent this: Now he must hire a coupla fellers to shovel a path thru his money just so he can get to his own bathroom. H suffers so, it's all been so hard on him. Jeff was the original hippy, 1969 Berkeley grad, always with the hair and sandals and the weird clothes they used to wear and all that, never had two nickels, but was really good at making do with just a little. Then this happens to him, and now society expects him to wear suits and go around like that guy with the top hat in the Monopoly game. The pressure is enormous. The hapful lad deals with it by funding his own X-prize mission to the moon. He asked his aerospace engineers if such a thing is feasible. His own buddy had to answer honestly: I don't think so. The Israelis did it: https://www.xprize.org/articles/spaceil-moon-orbit Sigh. If I see him, I will get a bullhorn and call out, Hey Jeff, is there enough oxygen up there? that sorta thing. Speaking of BitCoin, do remember Hal Finney, who was also one of ours. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 17:07:17 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 18:07:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] nutty discussions? In-Reply-To: <00ae01d5fa1f$3cc74480$b655cd80$@rainier66.com> References: <00ae01d5fa1f$3cc74480$b655cd80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Participating in the nutty discussions on this list has always been fun, thought provoking, stimulating, mind bending, and I could go on for hours. I'm proud of being one of many Extropy alumni. On Sat, Mar 14, 2020 at 5:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon > > > > >>... John what do I owe ya? > > > > >...Oh, all of the interesting and nutty discussions on here are payment > enough. I'm happy to help support a wonderfully vibrant and geeky community > :) > > > > John > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Indeed sir? What nutty discussions? > > > > Mahatma Ghandhi has said: First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, > then they fight you, then you win. > > > > I am at stage two. Our list serious guy Brent can't stop laughing. But > then after stage 3, I shall win, becoming the king of counterfeit TP on the > Dark Web. Then as I sit tall on my pile of money, I shall make instructive > and charitable comments from up there, such as neener neener > neeeeeeenerrrrr? > > > > Remember our own Jeff Davis, used to hang out here a lot in the 1990s, > always with the big ideas he was. Sold his house, bet long on BitCoin, > before the boom. > > > > The other day I posted to him: Hey Jeff, haven?t seen you since a year ago > last summer. Do post me a recent picture, me lad. > > > > He sent this: > > > > > > Now he must hire a coupla fellers to shovel a path thru his money just so > he can get to his own bathroom. > > > > H suffers so, it?s all been so hard on him. Jeff was the original hippy, > 1969 Berkeley grad, always with the hair and sandals and the weird clothes > they used to wear and all that, never had two nickels, but was really good > at making do with just a little. Then this happens to him, and now society > expects him to wear suits and go around like that guy with the top hat in > the Monopoly game. The pressure is enormous. > > > > The hapful lad deals with it by funding his own X-prize mission to the > moon. He asked his aerospace engineers if such a thing is feasible. His > own buddy had to answer honestly: I don?t think so. > > > > The Israelis did it: > > > > https://www.xprize.org/articles/spaceil-moon-orbit > > > > Sigh. If I see him, I will get a bullhorn and call out, Hey Jeff, is > there enough oxygen up there? that sorta thing. > > > > Speaking of BitCoin, do remember Hal Finney, who was also one of ours. > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist) > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 14 17:16:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 10:16:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] nutty discussions? In-Reply-To: <00ae01d5fa1f$3cc74480$b655cd80$@rainier66.com> References: <00ae01d5fa1f$3cc74480$b655cd80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00dd01d5fa24$4c10e540$e432afc0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com _______________________________________________ >.Indeed sir? What nutty discussions? . >.The other day I posted to him: Hey Jeff, haven't seen you since a year ago last summer. Do post me a recent picture, me lad. We tend to make light of the challenges of those whose ship comes in when in their 70s. This ship didn't just come in, it somehow leaped ashore and landed such that it nearly struck the unwitting lad, who was as surprised as anyone. These accidental later-life l skerjillionaires become the center of unwanted attention, such as Jed Clampett back in the 60s. But think about it for a minute, particularly those of us whose values are long since set firmly and do not change much, particulary those of us who are scandalized by enormous fortunes. Now think, what if. supernatural beings control fate, and they have a sensa humah, and they read the stuff we post, and one of them says Hey, that John Clark guy needs a fixin, let's drop a huuuuuuge fortune in his lap and see how he manages, that will be a kick in the ass. Jeff is managing the best he can. Last I saw him and his bride they were doing well. Of course there is little point of having a pile of money if one does not sit on top and enjoy the view, but there are dangers. Money is kinda slippery (we call know how it slips though so many peoples' fingers) and the danger of a moneyslide is always present. He could suffocate before the rescuers dig him out. He ordered oxygen bottles and an avalanche beacon, but Amazon.com could not deliver, for their experimental drones cannot reach that altitude. That isn't the only problem. He has buttloads of money, he hires contractors, whenever he pays them they get this eeeewww-gross look on their faces knowing where that money has been. They immediately run off and wash thoroughly, with this disdainful nauseous expression similar to that you may have seen if you have tried to use cash anywhere in the past week. It is getting so bad, even the ATM doesn't want to accept the filthy stuff. His contractors won't even put it in the same machine with the soiled baby garments, for fear of ruining the diapers. It brings a whole new meaning to the term money-laundering. Hey John, what nutty discussions were you referring to? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 18:24:58 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 14:24:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: art In-Reply-To: References: <007801d5f6fe$cec43970$6c4cac50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: America, and the Commonwealth, are the odd ones out here. Nudity and sexuality in art and media are normal almost everywhere else. On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Maybe the first one was a self-portrait, done while she was in that pose. > World class athleticism,eh? bill w > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 9:17 AM >> *Subject:* [ExI] Fwd: art >> >> >> >> art? >> >> >> >> >> https://www.quora.com/What-picture-made-your-mind-blank-for-a-few-seconds/answers/195333840?ch=10&share=08fe4dd1&srid=pTD65 >> >> >> >> Not that I am going there, but I'd like to know where these are, esp. the >> first one. Some liberal country? bill wa >> >> >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hard to say, but I definitely want to go wherever that first photo was >> taken. >> >> >> >> Artists need models, ja? Can you imagine an athletic lass holding that >> pose? And if so? how the hell would the artist keep his concentration? >> The mind boggles. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 18:35:00 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 11:35:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Which scares me more In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John Klos wrote: > I don't know which scares me more - that people adhere to the idea of an > omnipotent being powerful enough to create the universe, but whose > supposedly most cherished creation is a race modeled after himself which > can't stop hurting and killing each other, or the idea those same > cannot or will not consider the possibility that the universe is > random and unfeeling, and it's up to us to create order and beauty out of > chaos and entropy. The universe is random. The concept of "unfeeling" does not apply to the universe. (To feel requires a living being with a limbic system.) All else, including the widespread human trait of religions/belief in gods/etc. is the result of the random variation and non-random selection of DNA. (What else *could* it come from?) I strongly suspect the selection force for religions was wars that shaped humans to be able to believe in and pass round xenophobic memes. Humans in the environment up to the current era had no choice. Once the big cats were subjected to rocks and fire and were no longer able to kill humans, they had to kill each other (or sometimes migrate) when the population got out of balance with the productivity of the ecosystem in which they lived. Killing conspecifics for resources is a general feature of animals (such as the big cats) who don't have predators. "Out of balance" or a resource crisis is an effect of population growth and/or productivity variation such as droughts The capacity for population growth is utterly necessary or humans would go extinct from disease or other disasters. Other animals just starve in place or attempt to migrate. Humans also fight neighbors for resources. The selection of genes for fighting looks like it comes from the effect on gene survival of the human trait of incorporating the young women of a defeated group as wives. The bizarre effect is to make going to war substantially better for genes (on average) than starving. (I can repost the model if you don't remember it.) The model does indicate how to prevent humans from killing each other in wars and related social disruptions. If times are good, going to war is worse for genes by a higher amount than the advantages of going to war with a resource crisis. I.e., going to war when you are not facing bad times has been selected against. I think the trip into war type thinking is related to income per capita. As long as it is stable or improving, there is a strong genetic bias against going to war. You need to be careful about mapping psychological traits that evolved in the stone age to the modern world of nation-states. But there is a lot of historical evidence supporting the causal relation between resource crises and wars (or related social disruptions) following. A long list,of examples have been discussed here before. I can repost if anyone wants. Or make your own list. It seems up to us to spread life into the universe. But I think it will be a requirement for humans to understand themselves and the evolutionary forces that gave rise to our species. Keith PS https://arxiv.org/pdf/1806.02404.pdf From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 03:28:19 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 23:28:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Questions about R0 or maybe we'll be OK Message-ID: Greyenlightenment discussed the possibility that the R0 estimated for Wuhan virus based on cruise ship cases and nursing home cases may be too high. There are certain situations where the initial infected person remains in relatively close contact with others and this increases R0 but in most other situations R0 is actually much lower. For example, a cruise ship has central AC system that may spread infection among a captive group over many days. A nursing home has highly vulnerable elderly in close contact with health aides who may spread fecal material among multiple targets and we know the virus is spread also through feces. Countries with a lot of elderly, such as Italy, may have a more susceptible population. Countries with poor sanitation, like China, may have higher R0. If the above is true and the Wuhan virus R0 is under most circumstances lower than currently estimated, it would explain why some countries (e.g. Taiwan) have been successful in containing the spread. Mild social distancing and the usual control measures (tracking and isolation of infected individuals) would be unlikely to work well if Covid-19 was as infectious as measles (R0 12 to 18) but it will work with R0 just a bit over 1. The US does have some advantages over many other countries. We are more likely to drive rather than using public transportation. Our cities are less crowded than Chinese cities. Our population is younger than Italy's. The US is cleaner than most countries of the world. Establishing herd immunity in the US might be easier than elsewhere. I had a very pessimistic estimate of our chances of avoiding infection that I shared with Ben. Right now I don't have enough information to modify this estimate but who knows, maybe we'll be OK, in the sense of the pandemic being only a few times worse than the flu, rather than hundreds of times worse. Time will tell. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 04:17:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 21:17:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Questions about R0 or maybe we'll be OK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005301d5fa80$9960bf30$cc223d90$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat >?I had a very pessimistic estimate of our chances of avoiding infection?Time will tell?Rafal My own skepticism has been refuted by the actions of our community and school board. They cancelled school for the next two weeks, and possibly the week following, which would join it with spring break, so perhaps 4 wks off school. How shall we cope? they wailed in pathetic unison. The school board implemented online learning, arranged for teachers and staff to do their meetings and classes online with Skype and FaceTime. They set up and are running with community volunteers, their food-insecurity program: a way to feed the locals and take care of the offspring while the parents trundle off to the office or coal mine. People on opposite ends of the political spectrum worked together in perfect unison and produced success. My bride and I are considering contributing some funds and joining the volunteers to distribute swill to the starving masses, and averting immediate catastrophe by distributing toilet paper (genuine (one sheet at a time.)) To sum it up: the school system?s contingency planning seems to be working. There have been no covid cases reported locally although Lockheed Sunnyvale had a positive and some people came in contact there. The social distancing is halting not only covid but also the usual flu and colds which have been going around. I predicted failure, but was pleased to be proven wrong. So wrong was I on that, I won?t even bother posting mildly entertaining wisecracks to entertain the proletariat. The school did a great job, the plan worked, the shutdown was orderly, and I will postpone the silliness to use on some other absurdity. Even though this wasn?t the case this time, our world will not run short of absurdities upon which to exercise my gift, and of course my exceeding modesty. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 05:32:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 22:32:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Questions about R0 or maybe we'll be OK In-Reply-To: <005301d5fa80$9960bf30$cc223d90$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d5fa80$9960bf30$cc223d90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000801d5fa8b$1b2a8ff0$517fafd0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Questions about R0 or maybe we'll be OK >?My own skepticism has been refuted by the actions of our community and school board. ?The social distancing is halting not only covid but also the usual flu and colds which have been going around? spike It isn?t so much we have discovered the technology, but rather we have discovered the motive: disease. For so long we have been emphasizing mass transit. But we all know the disadvantages: it forces us into contact with the criminal element without the benefit of our Detroit-manufactured V8 suit of armor. Perhaps for some time we have had the technology to press towards less transit rather than mass transit. Let?s ponder the possibilities. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 06:45:21 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 17:45:21 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Questions about R0 or maybe we'll be OK In-Reply-To: <000801d5fa8b$1b2a8ff0$517fafd0$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d5fa80$9960bf30$cc223d90$@rainier66.com> <000801d5fa8b$1b2a8ff0$517fafd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 at 16:33, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] Questions about R0 or maybe we'll be OK > > > > > > > > >?My own skepticism has been refuted by the actions of our community and > school board. ?The social distancing is halting not only covid but also > the usual flu and colds which have been going around? spike > > > > > > It isn?t so much we have discovered the technology, but rather we have > discovered the motive: disease. For so long we have been emphasizing mass > transit. But we all know the disadvantages: it forces us into contact with > the criminal element without the benefit of our Detroit-manufactured V8 > suit of armor. > Your greatest risk in a car is from accidents. The number of people who come into emergency departments injured in a car accident is at least one, maybe two orders of magnitude greater than those injured due to being assaulted on public transport. This is from personal experience working in emergency departments: dozens of car accident victims in a year, no public transport assault victims at all, no public transport accident victims either. I say this to people who prefer to drive themselves to work or their children to school and they get annoyed. They don?t like their preferences challenged, especially if they are irrational. > Perhaps for some time we have had the technology to press towards less > transit rather than mass transit. Let?s ponder the possibilities. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nitram.ohcan at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 09:26:49 2020 From: nitram.ohcan at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Nacho_Mart=C3=ADn?=) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 10:26:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Questions about R0 or maybe we'll be OK In-Reply-To: References: <005301d5fa80$9960bf30$cc223d90$@rainier66.com> <000801d5fa8b$1b2a8ff0$517fafd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This preprint https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.12.20022434v2 suggests a very different scenario (R would be higher than estimated, not lower) based on this change in the premises: Recently more evidence suggests that a substantial fraction of the infected individuals with the novel coronavirus show little if any symptoms. Results: Our posterior estimates of basic reproduction number (R) in Wuhan City, China in 2019-2020 reached values as high as 5.20 (95%CrI: 5.04-5.47) and the enhanced public health intervention after January 23rd in 2020 was associated with a declined R at 0.58 (95%CrI: 0.51-0.64), with the total number of infections (i.e. cumulative infections) estimated at 1905526 (95%CrI: 1350283-2655936) in Wuhan City, raising the proportion of infected individuals to 19.1% (95%CrI: 13.5-26.6%). We also found that most recent crude infection fatality ratio (IFR) and time-delay adjusted IFR is estimated to be 0.04% (95% CrI: 0.03-0.06%) and 0.12% (95%CrI: 0.08-0.17%), which is several orders of magnitude smaller than the crude CFR estimated at 4.19% On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 7:46 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 at 16:33, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* spike at rainier66.com >> *Subject:* RE: [ExI] Questions about R0 or maybe we'll be OK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >?My own skepticism has been refuted by the actions of our community and >> school board. ?The social distancing is halting not only covid but also >> the usual flu and colds which have been going around? spike >> >> >> >> >> >> It isn?t so much we have discovered the technology, but rather we have >> discovered the motive: disease. For so long we have been emphasizing mass >> transit. But we all know the disadvantages: it forces us into contact with >> the criminal element without the benefit of our Detroit-manufactured V8 >> suit of armor. >> > Your greatest risk in a car is from accidents. The number of people who > come into emergency departments injured in a car accident is at least one, > maybe two orders of magnitude greater than those injured due to being > assaulted on public transport. This is from personal experience working in > emergency departments: dozens of car accident victims in a year, no public > transport assault victims at all, no public transport accident victims > either. > > I say this to people who prefer to drive themselves to work or their > children to school and they get annoyed. They don?t like their preferences > challenged, especially if they are irrational. > >> Perhaps for some time we have had the technology to press towards less >> transit rather than mass transit. Let?s ponder the possibilities. >> > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 15 09:56:26 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 09:56:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14/03/2020 17:07, Stuart LaForge wrote: > We could follow Taiwan's lead. Taiwan is an island right off the coast > of China with 23 million inhabitants many of whom work on the > mainland. Despite their proximity and population density, they only > have 50 cases of COVID-19 and 1 death. Yes, they were on top of the > epidemic from the very beginning but also of note, the government > foresaw the shortage of surgical masks so the government took over > production of surgical masks. Note that in the picture everyone is > wearing them going about their daily business. If everybody healthy or > sick wore a mask all the time in public, the virus would not be able > to spread. Let that sink in: only 49 infected out of 23 million people > with the Chinese government cyber-attacking them the WHOLE time. We > can beat this virus if we stop panicking and just start fighting the > virus instead of fighting each other over asinine politics; blaming > this political party or that for something that nature did. ... > *Frequent, transparent communication * This seems to be highly instructive, and not just with respect to outbreaks of infectious diseases. The extremely different, almost diametrically opposite, attitude and response that Taiwan has had, compared with China, is directly linked to the dramatically different outcome, so far at least, in each country. I can't say what this reveals about Italy, but I'm wondering if we will see a correlation, worldwide, between transparency, coupled with a willingness to respond immediately in a practical way - rather than just political/ideological posturing - and infection/survival rates. Maybe a plot showing COVID-19 infection and mortality rates against ... Hm, against what? maybe several plots, with scales for how repressive a regime is, how secretive it is (yes, I know, how can you trust their figures?), how 'politicised' it is (e.g. the tendency to twist everything towards scoring political points, regardless of the cost to human lives)?? Any better ideas? What I'm getting at is something concrete to point at and say "When you have this kind of government, and there's a crisis, more people tend to die. When you have that kind of government, and the same crisis, more people tend to survive" kind of thing, using COVID-19 as a practical example. Something that, hopefully, can't be argued with. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 15 11:21:04 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:21:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Science Fiction (was Re: Motivated Reasoning) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80dd5654-3831-9007-5afe-380c4b80bba7@zaiboc.net> On 14/03/2020 17:07, Gabe Waggoner wrote: > I always figured some Trek folks were part of this list, but I'm happy > to see it explicitly mentioned. I'd be surprised if there were more than a handful of people on this list with a negative attitude towards science-fiction in general. I count myself as an SF nerd, having read the stuff for almost as long as I've been able to read. I've always found Star Trek to have an anti-transhumanist vibe, though. In fact, thinking about it, very very few SF TV shows or films have had even a neutral attitude to it, most of them being very anti. It's only in books that you tend to see pro-transhumanist attitudes. And there are some great ones (and that's not an American 'great', either, I really mean outstanding, not just 'good'). Iain M Banks, Neal Asher, Peter Hamilton, Linda Nagata, Charlie Stross (when he writes SF), and to a lesser degree, Alastair Reynolds are probably my favourite modern authors, but of course there's a long list of precursors to them, stretching right back to Jules Verne. Can anyone think of a pro-transhumanist film or TV show? I mean one that doesn't derive a negative message from transhumanist themes and aspirations? Longevity, enhancement, AI, uploading, etc.? The best I can think of are 'Transcendence' (ambivalent, if even that), 'Chappie', which might count as an exception to the rule, and 'Ghost in the Shell' (at the risk of starting an argument!), which has some nice technology, but is basically a dystopian vision. I'm not counting 'superhero'-type things, because these are about mutants, magic, special people or species, and the ordinary people aren't any different to usual. Batman's technology is reserved for Batman, Ditto Ironman (with a slightly more realistic element of the military muscling in on it). No-one ever thinks of giving other people spiderman-like abilities, or how to raise humans up to the level of Asgardians, and so-on. 'Limitless' and 'Lucy' are about single individuals gaining special abilities ('superpowers', essentially), just like Spiderman or Green Lantern. I would /love/ to see someone do a film or TV show from the 'Culture' stories of Iain M Banks, or something where ordinary people are shown as having capabilities significantly beyond baseline human, without making a fuss of it. People who live indefinitely, cybernetic implants and full cyborgs being commonplace, uploads and multiple branching identities being background elements, that sort of thing. Despite all that, I still watch Star Trek, even the latest stupid one, which seems even more ridiculous and inconsistent than usual (and has a truly awful title sequence). It's entertaining, which makes up for any amount of awfulness (it's still not as bad as 'Deep Space Nine' though!). -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in Sun Mar 15 12:05:43 2020 From: f20170964 at pilani.bits-pilani.ac.in (Kunvar Thaman) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 17:35:43 +0530 Subject: [ExI] Science Fiction (was Re: Motivated Reasoning) In-Reply-To: <80dd5654-3831-9007-5afe-380c4b80bba7@zaiboc.net> References: <80dd5654-3831-9007-5afe-380c4b80bba7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I started reading SciFi books last year and have been on a binge of sorts since. Why don't people like SciFi? I can understand usage of bad physics irritating people and useless narration in some books but good SciFi books are very good books. >Can anyone think of a pro-transhumanist film or TV show? You might like Hyperion Cantos books, where this is a major theme. I've been waiting to read the culture series by Ian, everyone I know who's read it always praises it. Too many good books, always going. in the queue to read. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, 4:52 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 14/03/2020 17:07, Gabe Waggoner wrote: > > I always figured some Trek folks were part of this list, but I'm happy to > see it explicitly mentioned. > > > > I'd be surprised if there were more than a handful of people on this list > with a negative attitude towards science-fiction in general. I count myself > as an SF nerd, having read the stuff for almost as long as I've been able > to read. > > I've always found Star Trek to have an anti-transhumanist vibe, though. In > fact, thinking about it, very very few SF TV shows or films have had even a > neutral attitude to it, most of them being very anti. It's only in books > that you tend to see pro-transhumanist attitudes. And there are some great > ones (and that's not an American 'great', either, I really mean > outstanding, not just 'good'). > Iain M Banks, Neal Asher, Peter Hamilton, Linda Nagata, Charlie Stross > (when he writes SF), and to a lesser degree, Alastair Reynolds are probably > my favourite modern authors, but of course there's a long list of > precursors to them, stretching right back to Jules Verne. > > mean one that doesn't derive a negative message from transhumanist themes > and aspirations? Longevity, enhancement, AI, uploading, etc.? The best I > can think of are 'Transcendence' (ambivalent, if even that), 'Chappie', > which might count as an exception to the rule, and 'Ghost in the Shell' (at > the risk of starting an argument!), which has some nice technology, but is > basically a dystopian vision. > > I'm not counting 'superhero'-type things, because these are about mutants, > magic, special people or species, and the ordinary people aren't any > different to usual. Batman's technology is reserved for Batman, Ditto > Ironman (with a slightly more realistic element of the military muscling in > on it). No-one ever thinks of giving other people spiderman-like abilities, > or how to raise humans up to the level of Asgardians, and so-on. > 'Limitless' and 'Lucy' are about single individuals gaining special > abilities ('superpowers', essentially), just like Spiderman or Green > Lantern. > > I would *love* to see someone do a film or TV show from the 'Culture' > stories of Iain M Banks, or something where ordinary people are shown as > having capabilities significantly beyond baseline human, without making a > fuss of it. People who live indefinitely, cybernetic implants and full > cyborgs being commonplace, uploads and multiple branching identities being > background elements, that sort of thing. > > Despite all that, I still watch Star Trek, even the latest stupid one, > which seems even more ridiculous and inconsistent than usual (and has a > truly awful title sequence). It's entertaining, which makes up for any > amount of awfulness (it's still not as bad as 'Deep Space Nine' though!). > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > &Kunvar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 14:18:54 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:18:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Science Fiction (was Re: Motivated Reasoning) In-Reply-To: <80dd5654-3831-9007-5afe-380c4b80bba7@zaiboc.net> References: <80dd5654-3831-9007-5afe-380c4b80bba7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: The Expanse? Not explicitly transhumanist, but a very good SF show compared to the others. Pls don?t mention Altered Carbon, a very bad adaptation of a great SF work. On 2020. Mar 15., Sun at 12:22, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 14/03/2020 17:07, Gabe Waggoner wrote: > > I always figured some Trek folks were part of this list, but I'm happy to > see it explicitly mentioned. > > > > I'd be surprised if there were more than a handful of people on this list > with a negative attitude towards science-fiction in general. I count myself > as an SF nerd, having read the stuff for almost as long as I've been able > to read. > > I've always found Star Trek to have an anti-transhumanist vibe, though. In > fact, thinking about it, very very few SF TV shows or films have had even a > neutral attitude to it, most of them being very anti. It's only in books > that you tend to see pro-transhumanist attitudes. And there are some great > ones (and that's not an American 'great', either, I really mean > outstanding, not just 'good'). > Iain M Banks, Neal Asher, Peter Hamilton, Linda Nagata, Charlie Stross > (when he writes SF), and to a lesser degree, Alastair Reynolds are probably > my favourite modern authors, but of course there's a long list of > precursors to them, stretching right back to Jules Verne. > > Can anyone think of a pro-transhumanist film or TV show? I mean one that > doesn't derive a negative message from transhumanist themes and > aspirations? Longevity, enhancement, AI, uploading, etc.? The best I can > think of are 'Transcendence' (ambivalent, if even that), 'Chappie', which > might count as an exception to the rule, and 'Ghost in the Shell' (at the > risk of starting an argument!), which has some nice technology, but is > basically a dystopian vision. > > I'm not counting 'superhero'-type things, because these are about mutants, > magic, special people or species, and the ordinary people aren't any > different to usual. Batman's technology is reserved for Batman, Ditto > Ironman (with a slightly more realistic element of the military muscling in > on it). No-one ever thinks of giving other people spiderman-like abilities, > or how to raise humans up to the level of Asgardians, and so-on. > 'Limitless' and 'Lucy' are about single individuals gaining special > abilities ('superpowers', essentially), just like Spiderman or Green > Lantern. > > I would *love* to see someone do a film or TV show from the 'Culture' > stories of Iain M Banks, or something where ordinary people are shown as > having capabilities significantly beyond baseline human, without making a > fuss of it. People who live indefinitely, cybernetic implants and full > cyborgs being commonplace, uploads and multiple branching identities being > background elements, that sort of thing. > > Despite all that, I still watch Star Trek, even the latest stupid one, > which seems even more ridiculous and inconsistent than usual (and has a > truly awful title sequence). It's entertaining, which makes up for any > amount of awfulness (it's still not as bad as 'Deep Space Nine' though!). > > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 14:19:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 07:19:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >.I can't say what this reveals about Italy, . I can. Read on please. >.Maybe a plot showing COVID-19 infection and mortality rates against ... Hm, against what? Religious practices. Read on please. >. how 'politicised' it is (e.g. the tendency to twist everything towards scoring political points.-- Ben Zaiboc Ben, we USians are in a major transition in two areas (at least.) For the last three years our federal government has been at war with itself with no truce in sight. I see no point in taking sides in those battles. The next leaders will get involved in the same struggles for all the same reasons. Second: we are in a major transition with respect to openness. Our government recognized there is no practical way to keep its own secrets. Top clearance holders were given annual courses on all the bad things that will happen if one leaked the information, even accidentally. Then in 2004 the former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger was caught removing classified information from the National Archives. He never went to prison. A few years later, the Secretary of State was caught mishandling classified information. She never went to prison. If people that high up don't face legal consequences, no reasonable prosecutor will even attempt to press charges against lower-ranking employees. Consequence: the US government can no longer contain its own secrets. Recall that Julian Assange is one of ours (from about 1995 to about 2000.) That insightful lad foresaw all of what we are seeing now. He spoke about how advancing technology would eventually eliminate privacy. It is ironic as all hell that he is the one facing legal consequences when he wasn't the one who leaked the information, and the information for which he is most reviled for exposing wasn't even classified (it was a political party's email.) A US military person exposed the government stuff (and that person is now free.) Yet another irony is that no one really cares about the government stuff, but the political party stuff is what made the news. OK, so. what if. we get to the point that Julian foresaw: governments lag behind technology and no one can keep secrets? His vision was that the result would be honest government and peace. May it be so. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 14:20:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 07:20:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008901d5fad4$e3762840$aa6278c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat >.I can't say what this reveals about Italy, . Ben you mentioned Italy. I never did get there. Read on please. Editorials in the press are suggesting this national day of prayer is a good thing. The article is accompanied by people in a prayer ring, participating in exactly the kind of behavior which would spread disease. I would prefer the counterpart to that, an evolution ring, which is one where the participants form a circle of much larger radius and wave at each other from a respectful distance. Italy: the predominant religion there has a practice where a religious leader feeds bread to the (not even starving) masses in the ironically-named "mass." This of course provides the most perfect vector imaginable for disease. Idea: promote the photon. The photon is massless, but photons transmit information. So. we harness the power of the photon to promote the massless mass. The ceremony is transmitted over Skype or FaceTime, as our current local school system is transmitting its classwork. The schools are showing us the way to transition to the massless mass and reduce mass transit to less transit. Reduce disease: move bits, not butts. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 14:30:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 07:30:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Questions about R0 or maybe we'll be OK In-Reply-To: <005301d5fa80$9960bf30$cc223d90$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d5fa80$9960bf30$cc223d90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a601d5fad6$4f02da30$ed088e90$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?They are running with community volunteers, their food-insecurity program?spike I consider us most fortunate, for we live in times where good people happen to bad things. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 15:00:30 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:00:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCEMENT: server migration soon In-Reply-To: References: <008401d5f95a$e2100050$a63000f0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d5f984$d7b1f120$8715d360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:57 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The migration is done. Please let me know if you have any troubles :) > Plenty, but none related to the migration. ;) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 15:36:04 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:36:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 at 14:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Recall that Julian Assange is one of ours (from about 1995 to about 2000.) That insightful lad foresaw all of what we are seeing now. He spoke about how advancing technology would eventually eliminate privacy. It is ironic as all hell that he is the one facing legal consequences when he wasn?t the one who leaked the information, and the information for which he is most reviled for exposing wasn?t even classified (it was a political party?s email.) A US military person exposed the government stuff (and that person is now free.) Yet another irony is that no one really cares about the government stuff, but the political party stuff is what made the news. > > OK, so? what if? we get to the point that Julian foresaw: governments lag behind technology and no one can keep secrets? His vision was that the result would be honest government and peace. > > Just so........ BillK -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: exposingillegality.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 15:59:27 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:59:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 10:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Julian Assange is one of ours (from about 1995 to about 2000.) * Yes, but that's not something this list should be proud of. People are dead because of him and before this is over he may end up killing you and me too. If Julian Assange had never been born the Covid-19 virus would not be spreading as rapidly through the US population as it is now because much more aggressive measures would have been taken to slow it down. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 16:08:37 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:08:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Do tell, John, why are people dead because of him? Enquiring minds want to know! On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, 12:00 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 10:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Julian Assange is one of ours (from about 1995 to about 2000.) * > > > Yes, but that's not something this list should be proud of. People are > dead because of him and before this is over he may end up killing you and > me too. If Julian Assange had never been born the Covid-19 virus would not > be spreading as rapidly through the US population as it is now because much > more aggressive measures would have been taken to slow it down. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 16:14:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 09:14:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e701d5fae4$d3b464c0$7b1d2e40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 8:59 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 10:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Julian Assange is one of ours (from about 1995 to about 2000.) >?Yes, but that's not something this list should be proud of. People are dead because of him? Seth Rich? I don?t accept that notion. It might have been an ordinary robbery in which the robbers forgot to actually steal anything. >?and before this is over he may end up killing you and me too? I haven?t passed anything to Assange. I don?t plan to. >?If Julian Assange had never been born the Covid-19 virus would not be spreading as rapidly through the US population? Assange has Covid-19? >?as it is now because much more aggressive measures would have been taken to slow it down. John K Clark The line of reasoning here is tenuous indeed. Aggressive actions are not being taken because of fear of WikiLeaks? Do elaborate please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 16:19:01 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 09:19:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He?s blaming Trump?s win in 2016 on Assange. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 15, 2020, at 9:10 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Do tell, John, why are people dead because of him? Enquiring minds want to know! > >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, 12:00 PM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 10:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > Julian Assange is one of ours (from about 1995 to about 2000.) >> >> Yes, but that's not something this list should be proud of. People are dead because of him and before this is over he may end up killing you and me too. If Julian Assange had never been born the Covid-19 virus would not be spreading as rapidly through the US population as it is now because much more aggressive measures would have been taken to slow it down. >> >> John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 16:21:13 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:21:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the same? Message-ID: I ran across a guy on Quora who said he majored in divinity and anesthesiology. My frequent trips to various denominations in my youth suggests that these have a great deal of overlap. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 16:32:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:32:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 12:10 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Do tell, John, why are people dead because of him? Enquiring minds want > to know!* > Do I really need to spell it out? Do you really want me too? Last time I made a detailed argument of that sort some delicate snowflakes around here got all traumatized and demanded I be kicked off the list; if I answered the question you asked I have no doubt the same thing would happen again. This isn't the list of old, nowadays I must walk on eggshells, I can't just say what I think. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 16:41:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 09:41:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012a01d5fae8$9a3b6c80$ceb24580$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong He?s blaming Trump?s win in 2016 on Assange. Regards, Dan Indeed sir? I don?t understand how WikiLeaks could have contributed to that. The information posted on Wiki was not even classified, and Assange didn?t leak it, he only published what someone else leaked. On the other hand, actual classified information was found on an unsecured server and was published not by WikiLeaks but by a Chinese news source. Neither the Chinese news source nor Assange hold or ever held US citizenship. Both were merely publishers, who we do not generally hold accountable for publishing leaks. The actual leak of the Secretary of State material was never revealed, but classified material was found on the laptop of a felon Carlos Danger, who was caught by the local constabulary after he was posting inappropriate material to a teenage girl. Her father saw it, reported it to the authorities, the laptop was seized, authorities discovered the information, passed it to the FBI, no one was ever charged. WikiLeaks had nothing to do with any of that. I don?t understand how Assange is being blamed for something Carlos Danger did, or rather whoever leaked the information to Danger. I suspect Mrs. Danger was the culprit, but for some mysterious reason she has never faced legal consequences. Dan I am puzzled. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 16:44:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 09:44:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> John, I propose a day of open season on political discussion. Today. Anyone here object? If not, John do explain please why Julian Assange killed people. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 9:33 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 12:10 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: > Do tell, John, why are people dead because of him? Enquiring minds want to know! Do I really need to spell it out? Do you really want me too? Last time I made a detailed argument of that sort some delicate snowflakes around here got all traumatized and demanded I be kicked off the list; if I answered the question you asked I have no doubt the same thing would happen again. This isn't the list of old, nowadays I must walk on eggshells, I can't just say what I think. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 16:51:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 09:51:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> As an extension of Open Season Sunday, I propose no limit to the number of posts, no holds barred, everyone state your opinion on anything including politics, including naming names, including everything and anything. Then Monday I propose a return to sanity and extend an invitation to those who object to skip today?s posts. spike From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 9:44 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong John, I propose a day of open season on political discussion. Today. Anyone here object? If not, John do explain please why Julian Assange killed people. spike From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 9:33 AM To: ExI chat list > Cc: John Clark > Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 12:10 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: > Do tell, John, why are people dead because of him? Enquiring minds want to know! Do I really need to spell it out? Do you really want me too? Last time I made a detailed argument of that sort some delicate snowflakes around here got all traumatized and demanded I be kicked off the list; if I answered the question you asked I have no doubt the same thing would happen again. This isn't the list of old, nowadays I must walk on eggshells, I can't just say what I think. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 17:02:38 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 10:02:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I would like to know who John believes wanted him banned here and also who he thinks are the snowflakes in this group. (I can imagine one person he might be thinking of here.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 17:17:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 10:17:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong I would like to know who John believes wanted him banned here and also who he thinks are the snowflakes in this group. (I can imagine one person he might be thinking of here.) Regards, Dan No one wants John banned. Plenty were complaining about the nature of the political posts being US-centric. My proposal is to allow US-ian politics to be discussed freely, today, open season, social protocols cast aside, all that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 17:32:25 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 13:32:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 1:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> No one wants John banned. * > On October 12 2018 at 5:30 PM a thread was started by Adrian Tymes < atymes at gmail.com> entitled "Spike, please ban John Clark IMMEDIATELY". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 18:28:05 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 19:28:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] the same? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is at least the opinion of the profession ;-p /Henrik Den s?n 15 mars 2020 17:33William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > I ran across a guy on Quora who said he majored in divinity and > anesthesiology. > > My frequent trips to various denominations in my youth suggests that these > have a great deal of overlap. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 19:36:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:36:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 1:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > No one wants John banned. On October 12 2018 at 5:30 PM a thread was started by Adrian Tymes > entitled "Spike, please ban John Clark IMMEDIATELY". John K Clark That was then. Now is now. Open season for a day please. All the usual societal guidelines for propriety are temporarily set aside. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 19:55:50 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:55:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John, I propose a day of open season on political discussion. Today.* > > * Anyone here object?* > > * If not, John do explain please why Julian Assange killed people.* > OK you asked for it. Nobody knows how many Americans Julian Assange will end up killing, it will almost certainly be in the thousands I just hope it's not in the millions. Julian Assange Is a useful idiot, a tool of former KGB agent Vladimir Putin that helped him dictate who would become the next President of the USA. I didn't know it at the time but it turns out Assange was't Putin's only tool, he had a army of internet trolls that had done their homework and knew what buttons to push for the specific audience (guns race religion abortion whatever) they were dealing with, and so we got such absurdities as pizzagate. Now the reason is clear but in 2016 I couldn't understand where the intense hatred the name Hillary Clinton engendered in so many people came from. I thought she was a pretty vanilla politician and, although not my favorite flavor, vanilla is a lot more appetizing than shit. Most Americans were too smart to fall for Putin's propaganda but due to a blunder in the Constitution the American people don't get to choose their Commander In Chief, only the Electoral College can do that and they decided to put a turd in the White House who had no concern for the welfare of American people whatsoever. Because of Assange and other Putin stooges (such as members of the Libertarian Party and the Green Party) we got the most anti free market anti-libertarian president in American History, but even more important we also got the laziest, most ignorant, and dumbest president in American History. We might still have been OK if he had surrounded himself with smart people who had the courage to say "you're wrong", but he insisted on only having yes-men around him who tell him what he wants to hear not what he needs to know, and chose people to run multi billion dollar agencies who knew nothing about them. We even get people as stupid as Wilbur Ross who predicted that COVID-19 would mean more jobs for the USA. Genius or talent or even baseline competence is not highly valued in this administration, despite the flag kissing patriotism isn't valued either, only loyalty to the president is. Trump cut the budjet for CDC and dismantled the very team was was set up to rapidly respond to pandemics like this. Why? Because Obama started it and he thought anything Obama did was by definition bad. The Chinese gave the rest of the world a 45 day warning of what was going to happen and most countries made good use of that time, but due to jaw dropping incompetence on the part of Donald Trump the USA squandered that super valuable time. Every expert on epidemiology says testing is vital if you want to get ahead of a epidemic and earlier you test the better the chance of stopping it or at least slowing down the virus is, and as of March 2 the USA had tested one person per million of its population. Elsewhere on March 2 South Korea had tested 2,138, even third world countries did better than the USA, much better, Vietnam had tested 18 and Turkey tested 11. The USA tested 1, one in a million. If there is anything good to come out of this horrible virus it's that Trump will now likely lose the November election. But whether that election loss translates into a new president in 2021 is an entirely different question. I just can't see him being a good loser in 2020 when he was a sore winner in 2016, I think somebody will have to literally drag him out of the Oval Office by force. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 20:44:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 13:44:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 12:56 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > John, I propose a day of open season on political discussion. Today. Anyone here object? If not, John do explain please why Julian Assange killed people. >?OK you asked for it. Nobody knows how many Americans Julian Assange will end up killing it will almost certainly be in the thousands? With what weapon please? >?I just hope it's not in the millions... Did he get a nuclear weapon? >?Julian Assange Is a useful idiot, a tool of former KGB agent Vladimir Putin? Have you any evidence of this? >?that helped him dictate who would become the next President of the USA? Evidence? I thought he ran a website. Now you tell us he dictates who would be POTUS? Do explain please. >?I didn't know it at the time but it turns out Assange was't Putin's only tool, he had a army of internet trolls? Putin commands an internet army now? Do explain please. >? so we got such absurdities as pizzagate? Was that Putin?s idea? Evidence please? >? I couldn't understand where the intense hatred the name Hillary Clinton engendered in so many people came from? We could. She leaked classified information. >?Most Americans were too smart to fall for Putin's propaganda but due to a blunder in the Constitution the American people don't get to choose their Commander In Chief, only the Electoral College can do that and they decided to put a turd in the White House who had no concern for the welfare of American people whatsoever? John this wanders off the topic. How did Julian Assange kill all these people and get away with it? How does he threaten millions now? >?Because of Assange and other Putin stooges? You have skipped a step or two in your proof. How did Assange do all this, when all he was doing was run a website? How do we know he was working for Putin? >?(such as members of the Libertarian Party and the Green Party)? How do we know Libertarians and Greens voted in accordance with Assange and Putins orders? >? but even more important we also got the laziest, most ignorant, and dumbest president in American History? What has this to do with Julian Assange? {?rant not about Assange elided?} {?rant not about Assange elided?} {?rant not about Assange elided?} {?rant not about Assange elided?} {?rant not about Assange elided?} >?I think somebody will have to literally drag him out of the Oval Office by force. John K Clark John you started with accusing Julian Assange having murdered an unknown number of people and (somehow) plotting to murder more, then drifted off into rants about Putin with no clear connection to Assange?s plot to kill millions. Do explain please. Show your work in every step. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 21:14:01 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 17:14:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, 4:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >?OK you asked for it. Nobody knows how many Americans Julian Assange will > end up killing it will almost certainly be in the thousands? > > > > With what weapon please? > > > C'mon ... i don't have to use a gun to kill you. If insightful speculation about cause/effect is also going to be derided like discussion of politics (but, strangely, not qualia) then this list might already be dead. Certainly many if those who once civilly contributed alternative views with their own insight have left this party. With the wave of a pen and smug smile, Trump has undone many (most?) of the environmental protections Obama fought hard to win. That we have such understaffed healthcare system and unprepared emergency response, coupled with rampant scientific illiteracy has and will kill more people than the superabundance of guns in America ever could. We need some politicians accountable to those pens we gave them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 15 21:26:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 14:26:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d5fb10$744009a0$5cc01ce0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 2:14 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Mike Dougherty Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, 4:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >?OK you asked for it. Nobody knows how many Americans Julian Assange will end up killing it will almost certainly be in the thousands? With what weapon please? >?C'mon ... i don't have to use a gun to kill you? Of course. >?If insightful speculation about cause/effect is also going to be derided like discussion of politics (but, strangely, not qualia) then this list might already be dead. Certainly many if those who once civilly contributed alternative views with their own insight have left this party? Sure. What has this to do with Julian Assange? >?With the wave of a pen and smug smile, Trump has? Trump? I am asking what Julian Assange did wrong and how Julian Assange killed anyone. >?We need some politicians accountable to those pens we gave them? Assange isn?t a politician. He?s a publisher. We can make all manner of speculations about how things would be different if this or if that, but none of it answers anything about internet trolls, openness, WikiLeaks or Julian Assange. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 23:02:52 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 19:02:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 4:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Nobody knows how many Americans Julian Assange will end up killing it >> will almost certainly be in the thousands? > > > *>With what weapon please?* Oh for God's sake! >> I just hope it's not in the millions... > > > *>Did he get a nuclear weapon?* Ask me a serious question and I'll give you a serious answer. >>?Julian Assange Is a useful idiot, a tool of former KGB agent Vladimir >> Putin? > > > *> Have you any evidence of this?* Yes. And if you read the Mueller report and not a summary of it made by Trump stooge William Barr you'd have evidence of it too. Or listen to sworn testimony by witnesses in the impeachment hearing. Or just read The new York Times. Or The Washington Post. Or even The Wall Street Journal. Or got information from just about anywhere except of course for state run Trump TV, aka Fox News. *> Assange isn?t a politician. * True he isn?t a politician but I'll tell you what he is, Julian Assange is a professional hypocrite who claims to be a libertarian but has done everything in his power to help the most anti-libertarian person conceivable become the most powerful man in the world. > *> He?s a publisher.* Remember the Maine? Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst were publishers too and without them there would not have been a Spanish American War in 1898. Julian Assange won't make as much money off of yellow journalism as they did but he'll almost certainly end up killing more people, perhaps vastly more. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 00:31:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 17:31:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 4:03 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 4:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> Nobody knows how many Americans Julian Assange will end up killing it will almost certainly be in the thousands? >With what weapon please? >?Oh for God's sake! Who?s sake? John have you taken up religion on us? >> I just hope it's not in the millions... >?Ask me a serious question and I'll give you a serious answer. OK. How does Julian Assange plan to kill millions? >>?Julian Assange Is a useful idiot, a tool of former KGB agent Vladimir Putin? > Have you any evidence of this? >?Yes. And if you read the Mueller report and not a summary of it made by Trump stooge William Barr you'd have evidence of it too? I see. So you read the report and found the evidence in there, but refuse to share it with us? >?Or listen to sworn testimony by witnesses in the impeachment hearing? I don?t recall a word about Julian Assange. >?Or just read The new York Times? Did they run an article about a plot by Julian Assange? >?Or The Washington Post. Did they run an article about a plot by Julian Assange? >?.Or even The Wall Street Journal? Did they run an article about a plot by Julian Assange? >?Or got information from just about anywhere except of course for state run Trump TV, aka Fox News? Or rather you, John. You are the only person I have ever heard suggesting Julian Assange is plotting to kill millions. >> Assange isn?t a politician. >?True he isn?t a politician but I'll tell you what he is, Julian Assange is a professional hypocrite who claims to be a libertarian but has done everything in his power to help the most anti-libertarian person conceivable become the most powerful man in the world? I don?t recall his taking sides. He publishes stuff people post to him. Do explain yourself please. >> He?s a publisher. Remember the Maine? Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst were publishers too and without them there would not have been a Spanish American War in 1898? No John. Those guys were US citizens. They pledged allegiance to the USA. Julian Assange is Australian. >?Julian Assange won't make as much money off of yellow journalism as they did but he'll almost certainly end up killing more people, perhaps vastly more. John K Clark Have you a trace of evidence Julian Assange is hoping to make money killing people? He isn?t even in that business. Do not just keep repeating absurd accusations. Offer some evidence. Break down your line of reasoning. Show us that Julian Assange is motivated by politics. I recall that his motive was exposing as much political everything as he could, with no particular regard for which side of what party, for he never demonstrated he knew about American pollical parties or cared which won. I don?t see any evidence he does now. The weirdness of the accusation is that it accuses the guy way down at the end of the line, who isn?t even an American. If information that harmed any political party appeared on WikiLeaks, someone did something wrong, then someone wrote about it, then someone failed to secure his server, then someone gained access to it somehow, then someone transmitted the information (which is the leak) to WikiLeaks. All Julian did was publish it, which is what publishers do. I blame the guy who actually did something wrong. In that chain, where is the blame for whoever leaked the information, and whoever wrote it to start with? Where is the blame for whoever did whatever misdeeds generated the leaked information? It seems logical to me to place the blame at the start of that process rather than the end. John you come across like the bad guy in the old Scooby Doo show, where he always snarled ?I would have gotten away with it too? had it not been for those meddling KIDS!? OK sure. But the guy at fault is the bad guy, not the meddling kids who contributed to getting him caught. Openness is a good thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 00:53:49 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 19:53:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think the line of reasoning is: The US is afraid to make dictatorial choices at the moment, due to the real possibility that it might later become public knowledge. And I also kind of understand the line of reasoning other than that, but no one is doing themselves any favors at the moment. John, just calm down and actually explain yourself. Right now you?re just ranting. Right now you have a chance and you?re not really using it very well. Spike, you?re being snarky and obtuse but I think maybe that?s a feature not a bug. SR Ballard > On Mar 15, 2020, at 7:31 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 4:03 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: John Clark > Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 4:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > >> Nobody knows how many Americans Julian Assange will end up killing it will almost certainly be in the thousands? > > >With what weapon please? > > >?Oh for God's sake! > > Who?s sake? John have you taken up religion on us? > > >> I just hope it's not in the millions... > > >?Ask me a serious question and I'll give you a serious answer. > > OK. How does Julian Assange plan to kill millions? > > >>?Julian Assange Is a useful idiot, a tool of former KGB agent Vladimir Putin? > > > Have you any evidence of this? > > >?Yes. And if you read the Mueller report and not a summary of it made by Trump stooge William Barr you'd have evidence of it too? > > I see. So you read the report and found the evidence in there, but refuse to share it with us? > > >?Or listen to sworn testimony by witnesses in the impeachment hearing? > > I don?t recall a word about Julian Assange. > > >?Or just read The new York Times? > > Did they run an article about a plot by Julian Assange? > > >?Or The Washington Post. > > Did they run an article about a plot by Julian Assange? > > >?.Or even The Wall Street Journal? > > Did they run an article about a plot by Julian Assange? > > >?Or got information from just about anywhere except of course for state run Trump TV, aka Fox News? > > Or rather you, John. You are the only person I have ever heard suggesting Julian Assange is plotting to kill millions. > > >> Assange isn?t a politician. > > >?True he isn?t a politician but I'll tell you what he is, Julian Assange is a professional hypocrite who claims to be a libertarian but has done everything in his power to help the most anti-libertarian person conceivable become the most powerful man in the world? > > I don?t recall his taking sides. He publishes stuff people post to him. Do explain yourself please. > > > >> He?s a publisher. > > Remember the Maine? Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst were publishers too and without them there would not have been a Spanish American War in 1898? > > No John. Those guys were US citizens. They pledged allegiance to the USA. Julian Assange is Australian. > > >?Julian Assange won't make as much money off of yellow journalism as they did but he'll almost certainly end up killing more people, perhaps vastly more. John K Clark > > Have you a trace of evidence Julian Assange is hoping to make money killing people? He isn?t even in that business. > > Do not just keep repeating absurd accusations. Offer some evidence. Break down your line of reasoning. Show us that Julian Assange is motivated by politics. I recall that his motive was exposing as much political everything as he could, with no particular regard for which side of what party, for he never demonstrated he knew about American pollical parties or cared which won. I don?t see any evidence he does now. > > The weirdness of the accusation is that it accuses the guy way down at the end of the line, who isn?t even an American. If information that harmed any political party appeared on WikiLeaks, someone did something wrong, then someone wrote about it, then someone failed to secure his server, then someone gained access to it somehow, then someone transmitted the information (which is the leak) to WikiLeaks. All Julian did was publish it, which is what publishers do. > > I blame the guy who actually did something wrong. In that chain, where is the blame for whoever leaked the information, and whoever wrote it to start with? Where is the blame for whoever did whatever misdeeds generated the leaked information? It seems logical to me to place the blame at the start of that process rather than the end. > > John you come across like the bad guy in the old Scooby Doo show, where he always snarled ?I would have gotten away with it too? had it not been for those meddling KIDS!? OK sure. But the guy at fault is the bad guy, not the meddling kids who contributed to getting him caught. > > Openness is a good thing. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 01:45:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:45:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004b01d5fb34$82287ba0$867972e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 5:54 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: SR Ballard Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong I think the line of reasoning is: The US is afraid to make dictatorial choices at the moment, due to the real possibility that it might later become public knowledge. And I also kind of understand the line of reasoning other than that, but no one is doing themselves any favors at the moment. John, just calm down and actually explain yourself. Right now you?re just ranting. Right now you have a chance and you?re not really using it very well. Spike, you?re being snarky and obtuse but I think maybe that?s a feature not a bug. SR Ballard Ja. You know my style by now SR. We know John?s. These two styles can confront each other with positive results. But I will go at it a different way (temporarily (then the snarkiness will return (so don?t panic.))) There are those of us who really find a particular problem or issue the very most important one of all. It can be saving the Amazon rain forest, or stopping Russian something or other, or building homes for the homeless, etc, and all have their merits, but I am one of those who really ponder what the hell happens when the results of US government borrowing maxes out the credit cards and deep, painful cuts are forced upon us. >? The US is afraid to make dictatorial choices at the moment, due to the real possibility that it might later become public knowledge. JA! Thank for that SR. May dictatorial choices alllllwaaaaays later become public knowledge and may the US be forever afraid to make dictatorial choices, for our system isn?t set up for dictatorial choices. If you are right, Julian Assange saved thousands, and may be plotting to save millions. I am one who sees that as the very most important problem facing the US today, for when that day comes, it doesn?t matter what happens in the Amazon, for the US would not be able to do anything more with it than Brazil is doing now. It doesn?t matter how many homeless there are, for the government will be helpless as a kitten to do a damn thing about it. I have long since recognized that POTUS is not the most powerful man in the world. He isn?t even the most powerful man in the USA. When the results of our absurd overspending come home, POTUS will not even be the most powerful man in the US government, for the speaker of the house will be the holder of the real power, as that office must guide the rapidly-shrinking budget. In that scenario, I see no reason to blame Julian Assange for any of our troubles. I don?t see that he is plotting to profit from murdering millions. I remember him as being as single-focus as I am, but on a different obsession. Mine is government budget, his is exposing government secrets. Neither of us are motivated by profit. Neither of us have any ill will toward anyone. Julian does his thing. I don?t blame him for what he does, nor do I believe he is a Russian drone, a war profiteer, an aspiring politician, any of that. I remember his posts: he does what he does because of his deep convictions about secrecy: he believes it hides corruption. Well, ja, I get that. Do you? If not, I get that enough for the both of us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 04:04:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 21:04:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] my take on assange Message-ID: <008401d5fb47$f307eb90$d917c2b0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >>? The US is afraid to make dictatorial choices at the moment, due to the real possibility that it might later become public knowledge. >?JA! Thank for that SR. May dictatorial choices alllllwaaaaays later become public knowledge and may the US be forever afraid to make dictatorial choices?In that scenario, I see no reason to blame Julian Assange for any of our troubles? spike Back a long time ago, ExI_chat had a loooot more people on it and covered a lot of ground. There was a daily 5-post limit that was more strictly enforced (and more needed then.) As a result, we often broke off smaller groups and formed email circles to discuss specific topics. I was in several of these, including one with Hal Finney where he formed up some ideas that led to BlockChain. He was really into that kind of thing and was a supremely talented person, along with being one of the nicest guys you ever met, both online and in person. We also formed a group around government secrecy, which Julian was in, led my Mike Lorrey. Those two formed opposite poles of the debate: Mike was a big privacy advocate, Julian held the notion that if no one has secrets then corruption cannot hide, etc. I mostly listened to the debate and was in the middle, but if I leaned either way, it was toward Julian?s side. Mike was very much into American politics at every level, gun-rights extremist, a Libertarian party guy, but Julian never really indicated he followed politics, or demonstrated any particular masterly or knowledge of it outside Australian matters. He greatly admired American first amendment rights, and argued that this was the basis of all freedom, to tell government secrets if he found them out by any means. I would describe Julian as abrasive but not intentionally adversarial or insulting. He was just one-dimensional and very insistent, very inflexible. He showed little or no interest in other topics, but would debate in a minute if anyone opposed his notions on privacy, particularly government privacy. His notion was that governments can see us, regardless of what we do. They can always see what we are doing. So we should be able to see what they are doing, to help balance the power. I found his argument compelling, then and now. At the time, I went off on another kinda related tangent: how to encrypt our messages, making the snoops able to recognize that there is an encrypted message there. It would look like an ordinary message, but would contain something else encrypted within. Mike wanted all strong encryption to be legal and available at all levels, whereas I went toward technology to disguise that encryption was being used: steganography. As I recall, Mike and Julian eventually really got into it with each other and the group broke up. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 04:24:48 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 00:24:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <004b01d5fb34$82287ba0$867972e0$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <004b01d5fb34$82287ba0$867972e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I never voluntarily voted in my life. I am not that much into democracy. Incidentally, I'm now reading "10% Less Democracy" by Garrett Jones. Great book, too. I might vote this year. Just because I am getting angry, not because I feel it's my civic duty or because I think I'll achieve something good. Just because I am getting angry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 05:17:23 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 22:17:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Racism is rational (was Taiwan is standing) Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, at 1:53 PM spike wrote: snip > Open season for a day, please. All the usual societal guidelines for propriety are temporarily set aside. You will regret this I bet. I have long suspected that racism is rational. Human groups have been subjected to different selections and as a result, vary in important ways at the group level. If you can identify a person by race, that's a useful criterion for what behavior you can expect in interacting with them. Cooperation for example. I first ran into this in Gregory Clark's work where he documented the spread in surviving children between the well off and the poor in the UK up to about 1800. The selection was intense and went on for at least 20 generations. 20 generations of selection were enough to change wild foxes into tame ones. In the UK, those who had the psychological traits for numeracy and literacy plus other traits such as being less impulsive and the trait to defer gratification became well off and had about twice as many surviving children as the poorest. Intelligence was probably pulled along in the selection process. Recently a UK study found about 30 genes that were found to be associated with wealth. Only a few of them were directly related to intelligence. For data close to 30 years old, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve The same selection occurred to some human groups in a few other places, Northwestern Europe, Japan, and China. If you have any doubt about the selection of personality types, in China, simple psychological observation of people can make an accurate estimate if their ancestors were rice or wheat farmers. On average people of these racial backgrounds are just different from those who lived in other places. Of course, other races were being selected by the environment around them. In some places, the very opposite psychological traits were favored. Finally, this is not of long term significance. We will either have complete control over our DNA or simply upload. From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 13:20:56 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 09:20:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Odd Market Moves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 7:24 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Again, I'd argue that the measures of inflation in the US are flawed... > Check out https://chapwoodindex.com/ -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 14:10:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 09:10:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Racism is rational (was Taiwan is standing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have thought for some time that racism or any kind of xenophobia is natural. When the baby is in the womb it hears his mother's voice- his father's much more dimly. After being born it tends to favor people like his mother - the nursemaid, for example. Fathers get short shrift - the voice is deeper. Babies take some time to get used to that. You have to admit that from being in the womb to being in the world is a very big step to get used to. Babies are generally afraid of me. I am tall and have a deep voice. Any differences in skin color, hair style, clothing, just anything can cause a kid to have some fear. All of this is happening long before parents and others may tell or the kid may overhear racist feelings. Sure, some racism is learned in society, but the basic fears occur long before that. Also, fear is probably the most powerful of all emotions, so it takes precedence over anything else. Forcing people to experience what they fear is usually bad except when done by a therapist. Also keep in mind that people of any age are basically irrational. You can point out facts about safety of airplanes and people will still get in cars and drive long distances, thinking they are safer. I don't understand Keith's essay. Notice that I have not said anything about the role of genetics - because I don't know anything about it. It could all be learning, starting in the womb. bill w On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 12:20 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, at 1:53 PM spike wrote: > > snip > > > Open season for a day, please. All the usual societal guidelines for > propriety are temporarily set aside. > > You will regret this I bet. > > I have long suspected that racism is rational. > > Human groups have been subjected to different selections and as a > result, vary in important ways at the group level. If you can > identify a person by race, that's a useful criterion for what behavior > you can expect in interacting with them. Cooperation for example. > > I first ran into this in Gregory Clark's work where he documented the > spread in surviving children between the well off and the poor in the > UK up to about 1800. The selection was intense and went on for at > least 20 generations. 20 generations of selection were enough to > change wild foxes into tame ones. In the UK, those who had the > psychological traits for numeracy and literacy plus other traits such > as being less impulsive and the trait to defer gratification became > well off and had about twice as many surviving children as the > poorest. > > Intelligence was probably pulled along in the selection process. > Recently a UK study found about 30 genes that were found to be > associated with wealth. Only a few of them were directly related to > intelligence. For data close to 30 years old, see > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve > > The same selection occurred to some human groups in a few other > places, Northwestern Europe, Japan, and China. If you have any doubt > about the selection of personality types, in China, simple > psychological observation of people can make an accurate estimate if > their ancestors were rice or wheat farmers. > > On average people of these racial backgrounds are just different from > those who lived in other places. Of course, other races were being > selected by the environment around them. In some places, the very > opposite psychological traits were favored. > > Finally, this is not of long term significance. We will either have > complete control over our DNA or simply upload. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 14:30:29 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 10:30:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 8:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >? if you read the Mueller report and not a summary of it made by Trump >> stooge William Barr you'd have evidence of it too? > > > > > *I see. So you read the report and found the evidence in there, but > refuse to share it with us?* > For God's sake Spike, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together! Every intelligence agency in the country says Vladimir Putin's goons illegally hacked into the Email account of the Democratic National Committee and stole their Emails. Everybody agrees it would be embarrassing for Putin to publicly admit to this by publishing the Emails himself so he needed a tool, a useful idiot, to do that for him. And it is beyond dispute that Julian Assange DID publish those Emails and he did so at times that were most useful to Donald J Trump, the very man who would later go on to call COVID-19 a Democratic hoax and horabbly bungle the virus crisis. The Russians hacked the Democratic Committee on July 27 2016 just a few hours after Trump said in a televised speech ?*Russia, if you?re listening, I hope you?re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing, I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press*?, and the Access Hollywood tape where Trump bragged about sexually harassing women became known on October 17 2016 at 4:03PM, and just 29 minutes later at 4:32PM the first batch of those stolen Democratic Emails appeared on Wikileaks. And it is beyond dispute that Putin's boy Donald Trump made good use of property that was stolen by a foreign government and used it extensively in nearly every campaign speech from that day to the day of the election, and beyond. For some bizarre reason he's so obsessed with those Putin obtained Assange published Emails that Trump continued to talk about them at his WrestleMania type rallies long after he became president. > *he never demonstrated he knew about American pollical parties or cared > which won.* Well Donald Trump sure cared who won and had a strong opinion about WikiLeaks, he said more than once "*I love WikiLeaks*". Incidentally he also said he loved murderous North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un. > > *John. You are the only person I have ever heard suggesting Julian > Assange is plotting to kill millions.* > Spike, please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that Assange's actions will result in the death of thousands and perhaps millions of people and I stand by every word of that statement. Assange couldn't have known that COVID-19 would be coming in 3 years but he must have known it was possible, even probable, that a serious crisis of some sort would come up in the next 4 years and, unless he was as stupid as Donald Trump himself, he must have known nobody would perform more incompetently in a crises than Donald Trump. > >> Julian Assange is a professional hypocrite who claims to be a >> libertarian but has done everything in his power to help the most >> anti-libertarian person conceivable become the most powerful man in the >> world? > > > > *> I don?t recall his taking sides. * > Good God! And by that I maen your implication regarding Assange is as ridiculous as the existence of a benevolent God is, and that's pretty God damn ridiculous. > *> He publishes stuff people post to him. * > No publisher publishes everything anybody sends them, and most publishers publish stuff that the authors want published. And although it received far less publicity the fact is the Republican National Committee was also hacked by Vladimir Putin's goons, but none of those stolen Emails ever showed up on WikiLeaks or anyplace else. > *Openness is a good thing.* So let's see Trump's tax records for the last 20 years. Let's see what John Bolton has to say under oath about the Ukrainian scandal. *If information that harmed any political party appeared on WikiLeaks, > someone did something wrong [...]* Nothing in those Emails that were stolen by Russia and published by WikiLeaks revealed anything illegal or even particularly immoral, certainly not if we use the new morality standard established by Donald Trump. Those Emails just contains embarrassing office gossip of the type you'll see in any large organization like a presidential campaign; staffer X thinks staffer Y is a jerk and staffer Z thought his boss looked stupid when she said that thing in her speech last night. In short there was nothing in them that was newsworthy and the only reason to publish them would be if you wanted to make one side look worse than the other. > > Remember the Maine? Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst were >> publishers too and without them there would not have been a Spanish >> American War in 1898? > > > > *> No John. Those guys were US citizens. They pledged allegiance to the > USA. Julian Assange is Australian.* > What the hell does his nationality have to do with the price of eggs?! I'm not a lawyer so I don't know for certain if Assange's actions violated Australian or American law or not, but I do know for certain that what Assange did, and what Pulitzer and Hearst did, was immoral, and unwise, and hypocritical, and as it turned out deadly. *> I don?t recall a word about Julian Assange.* Well I sure recall Julian Assange. And in the next few months if I'm gasping for breath but can't be put on a respirator because all the hospitals are clogged up with millions of people who are even sicker than I am then you can be certain Julian Assange will still be in my thoughts. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 14:35:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 07:35:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Racism is rational (was Taiwan is standing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008201d5fba0$331793e0$9946bba0$@rainier66.com> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 12:20 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020, at 1:53 PM spike wrote: snip > ?Human groups have been subjected to different selections and as a result, vary in important ways at the group level. If you can identify a person by race, that's a useful criterion for what behavior you can expect in interacting with them. Cooperation for example? Whether or not it is legitimate, we can likely all agree that cops do this sort of thing every day. Politicians do this, with their open admission they use demographics in election strategies. They guess the behavior of the individual based on their skin color and configuration of their genitals. Right or wrong, the behavior is present in humans. As BillW points out, fear is our biggest motivator. I have been working toward harnessing that for marketing purposes for years in our society where actual danger has been falling for decades. After all that pondering, I was completely skunked, taken by surprise, as the sheer panic over covid led the faceless masses to horde? toilet paper. They were buying up? toilet paper. I soooo missed that wave, damn. Somehow it seems to have escaped the masses that if you run out of food, you don?t need the TP. But then I found out why, as I waited in line. Somebody sneezed and a dozen people shit their pants. It worries me that so many otherwise intelligent people can follow the herd into irrational behavior. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 15:45:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 08:45:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> I propose extending open season thru today. The resulting discussion has been useful and helpful methinks. > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 8:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >? if you read the Mueller report and not a summary of it made by Trump stooge William Barr you'd have evidence of it too? > I see. So you read the report and found the evidence in there, but refuse to share it with us? >?For God's sake Spike, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together! Not asking for algebra John. Show us something from this report that I didn?t read and don?t intend to, but you did. >? The Russians hacked the Democratic Committee on July 27 2016 just a few hours after Trump said in a televised speech ?Russia, if you?re listening, I hope you?re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing, I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press?? But WikiLeaks didn?t publish Clinton?s email. A Chinese news agency claimed they had them, but we still haven?t seen any of it. >? Well Donald Trump sure cared who won and had a strong opinion about WikiLeaks, he said more than once "I love WikiLeaks"? OK so we have two nearly indistinguishable mainstream parties. One leader claims to love WikiLeaks. The other leader may have threatened (in jest of course) to murder Assange with a drone. And yet we attribute some mysterious political motive? Is that really necessary? Could it be that Assange was mildly annoyed with Clinton for something or other, and had no particular interest in two nearly-indistinguishable parties in the one issue he cares about: openness. John do you see any significant difference between the two mainstream parties in the area of openness and government secrecy? I see little difference between them in their approaches to balancing the budget: both appear to have accepted the notion of eventual US government bankruptcy and default, with neither having credible plan when that day comes. I don?t accept your notion that borrowing can continue forever either. Sooner or later, those credit cards will be maxed out. Then what? >?Every intelligence agency in the country says Vladimir Putin's goons illegally hacked into the Email account of the Democratic National Committee and stole their Emails? Whenever I hear that I want to ask how it was that the server was set up such that it had no fail-safe against such hacking. Why don?t those goons hack into far more valuable servers, such as our major corporations? I did see a number of red flags. We had an IT team where I used to work, where they intentionally rotated IT people around so that they didn?t become too buddy-ish. The IT people watched each other, and there were fail-safes against anyone trying to download email. There was auto-archiving, there were notifications to the IT team of outgoing signals, they defeated I/O devices on the servers and hobbled the bandwidth on the data-lines, there were a lot of stuff they did which they didn?t tell us about. But one political party, I can?t recall which, hired an extended family to do their IT, and this family had ties to a foreign country. Both of those would be red-flags. They set up a system without external oversight or inspectors, red flag. High bandwidth cable, red flag. The IT lead travelled a lot to Pakistan and may have been accessing the server from there, possible red flag. They caught the IT lead at the airport with a suitcase full of cash with a one-way ticket to Pakistan, possible red flag. I haven?t heard if the Russians hacked into the Libertarian party server. I think they just had the two mainstream parties, whose spending habits are so similar, they are nearly indistinguishable. It looks to me like the party to blame here are the careless IT people. By the time it got to Assange, the information had already leaked. >?Spike, please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that Assange's actions will result in the death of thousands and perhaps millions of people and I stand by every word of that statement? Have you any evidence of that notion? >?Assange ? must have known nobody would perform more incompetently in a crises than Donald Trump? Evidence please? How would he know that? > He publishes stuff people post to him. >?No publisher publishes everything anybody sends them, and most publishers publish stuff that the authors want published? Evidence? >?And although it received far less publicity the fact is the Republican National Committee was also hacked by Vladimir Putin's goons? Evidence? Was the Libertarian party server hacked? Does the technology exist to prevent downloading the entire server remotely? > Openness is a good thing. >?So let's see Trump's tax records for the last 20 years? Sure, let?s do that. But as soon as we do, any American may refuse to file a tax return on the 5th amendment. >?Nothing in those Emails that were stolen by Russia and published by WikiLeaks revealed anything illegal or even particularly immoral? This comment contradicts your argument that Assange contributed to the outcome of the election. >? Those Emails just contains embarrassing office gossip of the type you'll see in any large organization like a presidential campaign; staffer X thinks staffer Y is a jerk and staffer Z thought his boss looked stupid when she said that thing in her speech last night? I fail to see how that comment is compatible with Assange?s actions contributing to the death of thousands or millions. Trivial office gossip killed thousand or millions now? Do break down this line of reasoning step by step please, without calling on deities. >?In short there was nothing in them that was newsworthy and the only reason to publish them would be if you wanted to make one side look worse than the other? I didn?t read them. I know no one who did. Did you? I don?t even recall seeing a quote from the WikiLeaks material. Assange?s diabolical plot failed apparently. We have no interest in office gossip. What I did see are the leaked quotes from the top FBI people on Twitter. That has had an enormous impact on our political system and continues to this day, that ?insurance policy? in ?Andy?s office? business written by Page and Strzok. But Assange didn?t publish that. The people who did publicize that are running free to this day, even after their diabolical plot to slay millions with a virus. >?What the hell does his nationality have to do with the price of eggs?! I'm not a lawyer so I don't know for certain if Assange's actions violated Australian or American law or not? Australia isn?t prosecuting him. Sweden threatened to, for an unrelated charge, which sounded to me like he refused to pay a coupla harlots. Assange isn?t subject to US law, which would exonerate him anyway under the Article 1 of the constitution. If the US prosecuted him for (somehow) influencing an election, then any commentary in our mainstream news which could influence an election becomes illegal. >? but I do know for certain that what Assange did, and what Pulitzer and Hearst did, was immoral, and unwise, and hypocritical, and as it turned out deadly? I agree Americans Hearst and Pulitzer were war mongers, and this was reprehensible. I don?t see that Assange was trying to start a war or profit from one. I don?t see him as responsible for covid deaths. Do take us through it step by step without referencing theoretical deities or commenting on the goodness thereof. >> I don?t recall a word about Julian Assange. >?Well I sure recall Julian Assange. And in the next few months if I'm gasping for breath but can't be put on a respirator because all the hospitals are clogged up with millions of people who are even sicker than I am then you can be certain Julian Assange will still be in my thoughts. John K Clark This chain of reasoning from WikiLeaks to covid is tenuous indeed. I see no clear connection. What I see is a guy whose passion is speaking the truth to power by publishing their words publicly at every opportunity, with the eventual goal of reducing that power. I get that. John, you now have the option of social distancing, which is the very best way to avoid covid. My family and I are doing that, and it works. I recommend that over any alternative which would have you cursing Julian Assange with your last gasp of breath. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 16:11:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 09:11:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions Message-ID: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> Greek Orthodox churches across the country will allow congregations of hundreds of people to sip wine from the same spoon during mass because "the holy cup cannot carry disease," the Archdiocese said. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-14/church-religious-groups-say-coronavirus-cannot-infect-them/12055476 "But once we decide to go to church, we believe there is absolutely no possibility of contracting disease from the holy cup," he said. "We believe that no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which we believe is the body and blood of Christ," Reverend Scoutas said. I believe to the contrary on that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From veronesepk at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 16:13:59 2020 From: veronesepk at gmail.com (Keith Veronese) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:13:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions In-Reply-To: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: welp, i say don't run around tempting God if you believe, but what do I know. - KV On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 11:12 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *Greek Orthodox churches across the country will allow congregations of > hundreds of people to sip wine from the same spoon during mass because "the > holy cup cannot carry disease," the Archdiocese said.* > > > > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-14/church-religious-groups-say-coronavirus-cannot-infect-them/12055476 > > > > "But once we decide to go to church, we believe there is absolutely no > possibility of contracting disease from the holy cup," he said. > > "We believe that no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which > we believe is the body and blood of Christ," Reverend Scoutas said. > > > > > > > > > > I believe to the contrary on that. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 16:26:16 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:26:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions In-Reply-To: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Oh no. Very bad news. SR Ballard > On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:11 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Greek Orthodox churches across the country will allow congregations of hundreds of people to sip wine from the same spoon during mass because "the holy cup cannot carry disease," the Archdiocese said. > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-14/church-religious-groups-say-coronavirus-cannot-infect-them/12055476 > > "But once we decide to go to church, we believe there is absolutely no possibility of contracting disease from the holy cup," he said. > > "We believe that no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which we believe is the body and blood of Christ," Reverend Scoutas said. > > > > > > I believe to the contrary on that. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 16:44:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 09:44:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002001d5fbb2$20f05730$62d10590$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions Oh no. Very bad news. SR Ballard Ja. One can scarcely fail to notice the country hardest hit is Italy, where they have lots of? um? well I forget what they have lots of, but they have lots that, of whatever it is. spike On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:11 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Greek Orthodox churches across the country will allow congregations of hundreds of people to sip wine from the same spoon during mass because "the holy cup cannot carry disease," the Archdiocese said. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-14/church-religious-groups-say-coronavirus-cannot-infect-them/12055476 ? I believe to the contrary on that. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sm at vreedom.com Mon Mar 16 16:48:41 2020 From: sm at vreedom.com (Stephan Magnus) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 16:48:41 -0000 Subject: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <032e01d5fbb2$c3ba61e0$4b2f25a0$@vreedom.com> During the Spanish Flu one of the cities with the highest death toll was Zamora in Spain. Their church officials had comparable ideas. Talking about the Spanish Flu? the book ?Pale rider? is a very interesting read. Von: extropy-chat Im Auftrag von SR Ballard via extropy-chat Gesendet: Montag, 16. M?rz 2020 16:26 An: ExI chat list Cc: SR Ballard Betreff: Re: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions Oh no. Very bad news. SR Ballard On Mar 16, 2020, at 11:11 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Greek Orthodox churches across the country will allow congregations of hundreds of people to sip wine from the same spoon during mass because "the holy cup cannot carry disease," the Archdiocese said. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-14/church-religious-groups-say-coronavirus-cannot-infect-them/12055476 "But once we decide to go to church, we believe there is absolutely no possibility of contracting disease from the holy cup," he said. "We believe that no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which we believe is the body and blood of Christ," Reverend Scoutas said. I believe to the contrary on that. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 18:58:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 14:58:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 11:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *John do you see any significant difference between the two mainstream > parties* > *GOOD GOD YES! *Except that the Republicans aren't mainstream anymore, nowadays they're America's Fascist Party. > I don?t accept your notion that borrowing can continue forever either. > Why not? It's worked fine for nearly 200 years because improved technology lead to increasing productivity which means the dollar I borrow today can be paid back tomorrow with a dollar that is easier for me to obtain. > >> ?Every intelligence agency in the country says Vladimir Putin's goons > illegally hacked into the Email account of the Democratic National > Committee and stole their Emails? > > > > > *Whenever I hear that I want to ask how it was that the server was set > up such that it had no fail-safe against such hacking. * > Because the Democrats made a mistake and didn't take computer security as seriously as they should have, but if I foolishly forget to lock my front door that doesn't mean it's OK for you to come in and steal everything I have. *> Why don?t those goons hack into far more valuable servers, such as our > major corporations?* > What are you talking about, when Russia hacked the Democrats Putin got something of incredible value, his boy in the White House. > >?Spike, please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that > Assange's actions will result in the death of thousands and perhaps > millions of people and I stand by every word of that statement? > > > > *> Have you any evidence of that notion?* > On February 26 Trump said there were 15 cases of COVID-19 and said the number of people infected in the United States is "*going very substantially down, not up, the 15, within a couple of days, is going to be down to close to zero.*" If only that turned out to be true! Two weeks ago there were about 50 cases of COVID-19 in the USA. One week ago there were 457 cases of COVID-19 in the USA. As of today there are 3,485 cases of COVID-19 in the USA. Dr. Anthony Fauci, one of the world's leading epidemiologists, said today hundreds of thousands of Americans could die in the next few months from the pandemic, and of course Trump immediately contradicted him by saying the virus "*was under tremendous control*". Trump is handling this crises exactly as anybody with only half a brain could have been able to predicted he would handle a crisis of this magnitude. Did Julian Assange have half a brain? >>?Assange ? must have known nobody would perform more incompetently in a >> crises than Donald Trump? > > > *> Evidence please? How would he know that?* Oh I don't know,... having less inflation adjusted money now then he had decades ago when he was given money by his daddy, owning a casino and failing to make money off of it, and 6 bankruptcies might have given him a clue, or just listening to the man talk for 5 minutes. >>?No publisher publishes everything anybody sends them, and most >> publishers publish stuff that the authors want published? > > > > > Evidence? > So... do you really think publishers are in the habit of publishing anything and everything anybody sets before them? >>?And although it received far less publicity the fact is the Republican >> National Committee was also hacked by Vladimir Putin's goons? > > > > *> Evidence? * > Russia Hacked 'Older' Republican Emails, FBI Director Says Republicans also hacked by Russia > > >>?Nothing in those Emails that were stolen by Russia and published by >> WikiLeaks revealed anything illegal or even particularly immoral? > > > > *>This comment contradicts your argument that Assange contributed to the > outcome of the election.* > I see nothing contradictory in it and this certainly wouldn't be the first time careers and lives have been ruined by gossip about things that were not illegal or even particularly immoral, most Hollywood scandals are in this category. > Trivial office gossip killed thousand or millions now? Do break down > this line of reasoning step by step please, > Step#1)Trivial office gossip provided by Julian Assange and targeted internet trolls who knew how to push people's buttons manage to convince just 53,650 voters in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan that Donald J Trump was more moral than Hillary Clinton. Step#2) Trump won as a result. Step #3) As could have been easily predicted Trump horribly bungled the virus crisis. Step #4) Now is the time to make big bucks by investing in quicklime futures and body bags. *> John, you now have the option of social distancing, which is the very > best way to avoid covid. My family and I are doing that, and it works. * > I'm doing that too and I hope it works, and I really hope you and your entire family and everybody on this list stays healthy. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 19:14:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 15:14:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators Message-ID: Today a group of Governors who were deeply concerned about a shortage of medical equipment in their state met with Trump foolishly thinking he would help them. Trump said "Respirators, ventilators, all of the equipment ? try getting it yourselves". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 19:41:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 12:41:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 11:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: John do you see any significant difference between the two mainstream parties >?GOOD GOD YES! Except that the Republicans aren't mainstream anymore, nowadays they're America's Fascist Party? Again with the deities. Putting a different name on them doesn?t change their spending habits. Apparently we have two fascist parties now, for they are both spending money like the allied troops are approaching from all directions. >> I don?t accept your notion that borrowing can continue forever either. >?Why not? Because it leads to the obvious next step: if we can borrow forever, why do we pay taxes at all? Just borrow it all. Better yet, borrow more than that, buy up things of lasting value, pay back never. >?It's worked fine for nearly 200 years because improved technology lead to increasing productivity? Does the scheme fail when technology fails to keep increasing productivity? What if the markets for all that productivity fails? >?which means the dollar I borrow today can be paid back tomorrow with a dollar that is easier for me to obtain? For YOU to obtain? John didn?t you tell us you retired recently? You do not need to obtain anything. The next generation, which is smaller and earns less than you do must obtain those dollars to pay the debt we ran up before we retired. >?Because the Democrats made a mistake and didn't take computer security as seriously as they should have? So they were the ones who slew thousands? Or is it up to millions? >?but if I foolishly forget to lock my front door that doesn't mean it's OK for you to come in and steal everything I have? Previously you told us it was all just office gossip. But before that it somehow got whats-his-name elected which has slain thousands and is heading for the millions. So office gossip was stolen, which no one apparently ever read (did you? Neither did I) and somehow this influenced an election? Methinks there are some steps missing in your proof. >?What are you talking about, when Russia hacked the Democrats? How do we know the Russians did this? The ?evidence? cited by our FBI was Russian comments inserted here and there. One of the IT team was Ukrainian and is fluent in Russian. So we had a few Russian comments in a pile of office gossip which no one ever read, when the party refused to give the server to the FBI. The FBI got it after the fact from CloudStrike, an IT company headed by a Ukrainian who hates Russia with a passion seldom seen. So I am back to: How do we know the Russians did this? >?Putin got something of incredible value, his boy in the White House? How do we know office gossip had anything to do with either boy? Are we not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? >?Assange's actions will result in the death of thousands and perhaps millions of people and I stand by every word of that statement? > Have you any evidence of that notion? >?On February 26 Trump said there were 15 cases of COVID-19 ? {?Cutting a full paragraph having to do with covid, nothing to do with Julian Assange.} >?Did Julian Assange have half a brain? Do we have a trace of evidence Assange had any role in spreading covid? Do explain that please, starting with he published some office gossip, then fill in some steps between that and covid slays thousands. >>?Assange ? must have known nobody would perform more incompetently in a crises than Donald Trump? > Evidence please? How would he know that? >?Oh I don't know,... having less inflation adjusted money now then he had decades ago when he was given money by his daddy, owning a casino and failing to make money off of it, and 6 bankruptcies might have given him a clue, or just listening to the man talk for 5 minutes? Assange?s father has casinos? John I am not asking about casinos, I am wanting to know how you get from Julian Assange publishing office gossip to a virus slaying thousands. This is as dramatic a leap as Fermat writing that he had discovered a marvelous proof but it was too large to fit in the margin. Are we not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? >?So... do you really think publishers are in the habit of publishing anything and everything anybody sets before them? Online publishing is free. The content is free. The content was political. Of course Assange will publish everything he can get his paws on. That?s what he does. >>?And although it received far less publicity the fact is the Republican National Committee was also hacked by Vladimir Putin's goons? > Evidence? Russia Hacked 'Older' Republican Emails, FBI Director Says Republicans also hacked by Russia Did the Russians give it to Assange? How do we know? >?I see nothing contradictory in it and this certainly wouldn't be the first time careers and lives have been ruined by gossip ? > Trivial office gossip killed thousand or millions now? Do break down this line of reasoning step by step please, Step#1)Trivial office gossip provided by Julian Assange? Provided BY Julian Assange? Did you mean TO Julian Assange? >? 53,650 voters in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan that Donald J Trump was more moral than Hillary Clinton? I didn?t read any of the office gossip, I have no reason to think it had anything to do with any particular politician?s moral standings. John the material is public. Before you go past that step, do quote us something that would indicate the office gossip was about anyone?s moral standings. Failing that, work that step that 53,650 voters were influenced by office gossip about a particular politician?s moral standings. I just don?t see it. >?Step#2) Trump won as a result? John K Clark OK we need a loooot more detail here. We need some indication that a far bigger factor was not the material found on Carlos Danger?s laptop computer. >?Step #3)? Little point in going past here. I am still wondering how office gossip (I have never met anyone who claims to have read it) somehow influenced all those voters in those three particular states to vote a certain way. I can?t think of how these office workers would have had any particular knowledge of any particular candidate?s morals. If they did, why didn?t any of that material ever make it into the mainstream press? Juicy gossip sells like hotcakes on the internet. I don?t recall any of that leaked email ever being quoted. Do you? I would suppose it is still around somewhere. In step 2, you theorize that office gossip that no one actually read or even quoted, overturned an election, while overlooking the obvious: the voters didn?t like the candidate and most voters did not vote for her. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 21:25:57 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 15:25:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The only way in which Trump can even remotely be said to be directly responsible for the government's response to covid is that he cut the CDC budget. This was not a uniquely Trumpian mistake. In all likelihood, given the same realities on the ground, any hypothetical Republican President [and many hypothetical Democrat Presidents] would have done the same. There is no meaningful sense in which the election result can be said to have contributed to the current health crisis. Doing so is not, in normal times, an act of particular political or practical significance. No one sounded meaningful alarm bells while it was happening, and it's entirely possible Trump didn't even think about it for any longer than it took to assess the general capability of the civil servant who made the recommendation, if even that. He does need to stop shooting his mouth off at press conferences, though. I understand what he's trying to do - reassure a worried nation with confidence and projected power. The problem is that's the wrong emotional posture. That works for military and geopolitical threats, but this is more of a case for calm measured leadership. And, to put it mildly, reassuring a worried nation with calm, measured leadership is *not* Trump's strong suit. At his best he projects power and confidence, and does so very effectively, but *not* precision, measure, or self-control. He should leave that to Pence, who is noticeably better at it. On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 11:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *John do you see any significant difference between the two mainstream > parties* > > > > *>?GOOD GOD YES! *Except that the Republicans aren't mainstream anymore, > nowadays they're America's Fascist Party? > > > > Again with the deities. Putting a different name on them doesn?t change > their spending habits. Apparently we have two fascist parties now, for > they are both spending money like the allied troops are approaching from > all directions. > > > > >> I don?t accept your notion that borrowing can continue forever either. > > > > >?Why not? > > > > Because it leads to the obvious next step: if we can borrow forever, why > do we pay taxes at all? Just borrow it all. Better yet, borrow more than > that, buy up things of lasting value, pay back never. > > > > >?It's worked fine for nearly 200 years because improved technology lead > to increasing productivity? > > > > Does the scheme fail when technology fails to keep increasing > productivity? What if the markets for all that productivity fails? > > > > >?which means the dollar I borrow today can be paid back tomorrow with a > dollar that is easier for me to obtain? > > > > For YOU to obtain? John didn?t you tell us you retired recently? You do > not need to obtain anything. The next generation, which is smaller and > earns less than you do must obtain those dollars to pay the debt we ran up > before we retired. > > > > > > >?Because the Democrats made a mistake and didn't take computer security > as seriously as they should have? > > > > So they were the ones who slew thousands? Or is it up to millions? > > > > >?but if I foolishly forget to lock my front door that doesn't mean it's > OK for you to come in and steal everything I have? > > > > Previously you told us it was all just office gossip. But before that it > somehow got whats-his-name elected which has slain thousands and is heading > for the millions. So office gossip was stolen, which no one apparently > ever read (did you? Neither did I) and somehow this influenced an election? > > > > Methinks there are some steps missing in your proof. > > > > > > >?What are you talking about, when Russia hacked the Democrats? > > > > How do we know the Russians did this? The ?evidence? cited by our FBI was > Russian comments inserted here and there. One of the IT team was Ukrainian > and is fluent in Russian. So we had a few Russian comments in a pile of > office gossip which no one ever read, when the party refused to give the > server to the FBI. The FBI got it after the fact from CloudStrike, an IT > company headed by a Ukrainian who hates Russia with a passion seldom seen. > > > > So I am back to: How do we know the Russians did this? > > > > >?Putin got something of incredible value, his boy in the White House? > > > > How do we know office gossip had anything to do with either boy? Are we > not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? > > > > > > >?Assange's actions will result in the death of thousands and perhaps > millions of people and I stand by every word of that statement? > > > > *> **Have you any evidence of that notion?* > > > > > > >?On February 26 Trump said there were 15 cases of COVID-19 ? > > > > {?Cutting a full paragraph having to do with covid, nothing to do with > Julian Assange.} > > > > >?Did Julian Assange have half a brain? > > > > Do we have a trace of evidence Assange had any role in spreading covid? > Do explain that please, starting with he published some office gossip, then > fill in some steps between that and covid slays thousands. > > > > > > > > >>?Assange ? must have known nobody would perform more incompetently in a > crises than Donald Trump? > > > *> Evidence please? How would he know that?* > > > > >?Oh I don't know,... having less inflation adjusted money now then he had > decades ago when he was given money by his daddy, owning a casino and > failing to make money off of it, and 6 bankruptcies might have given him a > clue, or just listening to the man talk for 5 minutes? > > > > Assange?s father has casinos? > > > > John I am not asking about casinos, I am wanting to know how you get from > Julian Assange publishing office gossip to a virus slaying thousands. This > is as dramatic a leap as Fermat writing that he had discovered a marvelous > proof but it was too large to fit in the margin. > > > > Are we not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? > > > > > > >?So... do you really think publishers are in the habit of publishing > anything and everything anybody sets before them? > > > > Online publishing is free. The content is free. The content was > political. Of course Assange will publish everything he can get his paws > on. That?s what he does. > > > > > > >>?And although it received far less publicity the fact is the Republican > National Committee was also hacked by Vladimir Putin's goons? > > > > *> **Evidence? * > > > > Russia Hacked 'Older' Republican Emails, FBI Director Says > > > > > > Republicans also hacked by Russia > > > > > Did the Russians give it to Assange? How do we know? > > > > > > >?I see nothing contradictory in it and this certainly wouldn't be the > first time careers and lives have been ruined by gossip ? > > > > > Trivial office gossip killed thousand or millions now? Do break down > this line of reasoning step by step please, > > > > Step#1)Trivial office gossip provided by Julian Assange? > > > > Provided BY Julian Assange? Did you mean TO Julian Assange? > > > > >? 53,650 voters in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan that Donald J > Trump was more moral than Hillary Clinton? > > > > I didn?t read any of the office gossip, I have no reason to think it had > anything to do with any particular politician?s moral standings. John the > material is public. Before you go past that step, do quote us something > that would indicate the office gossip was about anyone?s moral standings. > Failing that, work that step that 53,650 voters were influenced by office > gossip about a particular politician?s moral standings. I just don?t see > it. > > > > > > >?Step#2) Trump won as a result? John K Clark > > > > OK we need a loooot more detail here. > > > > We need some indication that a far bigger factor was not the material > found on Carlos Danger?s laptop computer. > > > > >?Step #3)? > > > > Little point in going past here. I am still wondering how office gossip > (I have never met anyone who claims to have read it) somehow influenced all > those voters in those three particular states to vote a certain way. > > > > I can?t think of how these office workers would have had any particular > knowledge of any particular candidate?s morals. If they did, why didn?t > any of that material ever make it into the mainstream press? Juicy gossip > sells like hotcakes on the internet. I don?t recall any of that leaked > email ever being quoted. Do you? I would suppose it is still around > somewhere. > > > > In step 2, you theorize that office gossip that no one actually read or > even quoted, overturned an election, while overlooking the obvious: the > voters didn?t like the candidate and most voters did not vote for her. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 21:29:07 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 15:29:07 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't entirely know what they or you expected Trump to do. They already have access to state of emergency funding, and it's not like the federal government has warehouses of medical equipment salted in warehouses around the country "just in case". On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:16 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Today a group of Governors who were deeply concerned about a shortage of > medical equipment in their state met with Trump foolishly thinking he would > help them. Trump said "Respirators, ventilators, all of the equipment ? > try getting it yourselves". > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 21:44:18 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 17:44:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: +1. Well said on all counts. On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:27 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The only way in which Trump can even remotely be said to be > directly responsible for the government's response to covid is that he cut > the CDC budget. > > This was not a uniquely Trumpian mistake. In all likelihood, given the > same realities on the ground, any hypothetical Republican President [and > many hypothetical Democrat Presidents] would have done the same. There is > no meaningful sense in which the election result can be said to have > contributed to the current health crisis. > > Doing so is not, in normal times, an act of particular political or > practical significance. No one sounded meaningful alarm bells while it was > happening, and it's entirely possible Trump didn't even think about it for > any longer than it took to assess the general capability of the civil > servant who made the recommendation, if even that. > > He does need to stop shooting his mouth off at press conferences, though. > I understand what he's trying to do - reassure a worried nation with > confidence and projected power. The problem is that's the wrong emotional > posture. That works for military and geopolitical threats, but this is more > of a case for calm measured leadership. And, to put it mildly, reassuring a > worried nation with calm, measured leadership is *not* Trump's strong suit. > At his best he projects power and confidence, and does so very effectively, > but *not* precision, measure, or self-control. He should leave that to > Pence, who is noticeably better at it. > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 11:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> *John do you see any significant difference between the two mainstream >> parties* >> >> >> >> *>?GOOD GOD YES! *Except that the Republicans aren't mainstream anymore, >> nowadays they're America's Fascist Party? >> >> >> >> Again with the deities. Putting a different name on them doesn?t change >> their spending habits. Apparently we have two fascist parties now, for >> they are both spending money like the allied troops are approaching from >> all directions. >> >> >> >> >> I don?t accept your notion that borrowing can continue forever >> either. >> >> >> >> >?Why not? >> >> >> >> Because it leads to the obvious next step: if we can borrow forever, why >> do we pay taxes at all? Just borrow it all. Better yet, borrow more than >> that, buy up things of lasting value, pay back never. >> >> >> >> >?It's worked fine for nearly 200 years because improved technology lead >> to increasing productivity? >> >> >> >> Does the scheme fail when technology fails to keep increasing >> productivity? What if the markets for all that productivity fails? >> >> >> >> >?which means the dollar I borrow today can be paid back tomorrow with a >> dollar that is easier for me to obtain? >> >> >> >> For YOU to obtain? John didn?t you tell us you retired recently? You do >> not need to obtain anything. The next generation, which is smaller and >> earns less than you do must obtain those dollars to pay the debt we ran up >> before we retired. >> >> >> >> >> >> >?Because the Democrats made a mistake and didn't take computer security >> as seriously as they should have? >> >> >> >> So they were the ones who slew thousands? Or is it up to millions? >> >> >> >> >?but if I foolishly forget to lock my front door that doesn't mean it's >> OK for you to come in and steal everything I have? >> >> >> >> Previously you told us it was all just office gossip. But before that it >> somehow got whats-his-name elected which has slain thousands and is heading >> for the millions. So office gossip was stolen, which no one apparently >> ever read (did you? Neither did I) and somehow this influenced an election? >> >> >> >> Methinks there are some steps missing in your proof. >> >> >> >> >> >> >?What are you talking about, when Russia hacked the Democrats? >> >> >> >> How do we know the Russians did this? The ?evidence? cited by our FBI >> was Russian comments inserted here and there. One of the IT team was >> Ukrainian and is fluent in Russian. So we had a few Russian comments in a >> pile of office gossip which no one ever read, when the party refused to >> give the server to the FBI. The FBI got it after the fact from >> CloudStrike, an IT company headed by a Ukrainian who hates Russia with a >> passion seldom seen. >> >> >> >> So I am back to: How do we know the Russians did this? >> >> >> >> >?Putin got something of incredible value, his boy in the White House? >> >> >> >> How do we know office gossip had anything to do with either boy? Are we >> not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? >> >> >> >> >> >> >?Assange's actions will result in the death of thousands and perhaps >> millions of people and I stand by every word of that statement? >> >> >> >> *> **Have you any evidence of that notion?* >> >> >> >> >> >> >?On February 26 Trump said there were 15 cases of COVID-19 ? >> >> >> >> {?Cutting a full paragraph having to do with covid, nothing to do with >> Julian Assange.} >> >> >> >> >?Did Julian Assange have half a brain? >> >> >> >> Do we have a trace of evidence Assange had any role in spreading covid? >> Do explain that please, starting with he published some office gossip, then >> fill in some steps between that and covid slays thousands. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>?Assange ? must have known nobody would perform more incompetently in a >> crises than Donald Trump? >> >> >> *> Evidence please? How would he know that?* >> >> >> >> >?Oh I don't know,... having less inflation adjusted money now then he >> had decades ago when he was given money by his daddy, owning a casino and >> failing to make money off of it, and 6 bankruptcies might have given him a >> clue, or just listening to the man talk for 5 minutes? >> >> >> >> Assange?s father has casinos? >> >> >> >> John I am not asking about casinos, I am wanting to know how you get from >> Julian Assange publishing office gossip to a virus slaying thousands. This >> is as dramatic a leap as Fermat writing that he had discovered a marvelous >> proof but it was too large to fit in the margin. >> >> >> >> Are we not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? >> >> >> >> >> >> >?So... do you really think publishers are in the habit of publishing >> anything and everything anybody sets before them? >> >> >> >> Online publishing is free. The content is free. The content was >> political. Of course Assange will publish everything he can get his paws >> on. That?s what he does. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>?And although it received far less publicity the fact is the >> Republican National Committee was also hacked by Vladimir Putin's goons? >> >> >> >> *> **Evidence? * >> >> >> >> Russia Hacked 'Older' Republican Emails, FBI Director Says >> >> >> >> >> >> Republicans also hacked by Russia >> >> >> >> >> Did the Russians give it to Assange? How do we know? >> >> >> >> >> >> >?I see nothing contradictory in it and this certainly wouldn't be the >> first time careers and lives have been ruined by gossip ? >> >> >> >> > Trivial office gossip killed thousand or millions now? Do break down >> this line of reasoning step by step please, >> >> >> >> Step#1)Trivial office gossip provided by Julian Assange? >> >> >> >> Provided BY Julian Assange? Did you mean TO Julian Assange? >> >> >> >> >? 53,650 voters in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan that Donald J >> Trump was more moral than Hillary Clinton? >> >> >> >> I didn?t read any of the office gossip, I have no reason to think it had >> anything to do with any particular politician?s moral standings. John the >> material is public. Before you go past that step, do quote us something >> that would indicate the office gossip was about anyone?s moral standings. >> Failing that, work that step that 53,650 voters were influenced by office >> gossip about a particular politician?s moral standings. I just don?t see >> it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >?Step#2) Trump won as a result? John K Clark >> >> >> >> OK we need a loooot more detail here. >> >> >> >> We need some indication that a far bigger factor was not the material >> found on Carlos Danger?s laptop computer. >> >> >> >> >?Step #3)? >> >> >> >> Little point in going past here. I am still wondering how office gossip >> (I have never met anyone who claims to have read it) somehow influenced all >> those voters in those three particular states to vote a certain way. >> >> >> >> I can?t think of how these office workers would have had any particular >> knowledge of any particular candidate?s morals. If they did, why didn?t >> any of that material ever make it into the mainstream press? Juicy gossip >> sells like hotcakes on the internet. I don?t recall any of that leaked >> email ever being quoted. Do you? I would suppose it is still around >> somewhere. >> >> >> >> In step 2, you theorize that office gossip that no one actually read or >> even quoted, overturned an election, while overlooking the obvious: the >> voters didn?t like the candidate and most voters did not vote for her. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 21:51:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 14:51:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> >?The only way in which Trump can even remotely be said to be directly responsible for the government's response to covid is that he cut the CDC budget?This was not a uniquely Trumpian mistake? Darin Caution Darin, with such a balanced post, you are likely to be accused of being part of a Fascist plot to slay thousands, possibly millions. The assumption is that a CDC funded with more money could have done better. That isn?t clear to me at all, and is based on a number of speculative assumptions. I keep hearing we didn?t have enough test kits and so forth, but what if? there had been enough test kits. We test everyone in the USA. We isolate those who test positive. Then a few days later cases begin to appear again, so we spend another few hundred billion, repeat. Then, many of those already tested think they are immune, they catch it, spread it, now a third round of testing for a few hundred billion more dollars. Repeat until failure is obvious to all. Test kits were not the answer and might have made the problem worse, after a crushing expense. Government run medical systems were not the answer (Europe has those, they have been hit harder than the USA.) More kits were not the answer. Social isolation is probably the right answer, and the USA was good on that. I confess I get my news from Reason.com so there are those who would argue I have a warped perspective. Shrugs. I don?t think more government is the answer to this kind of thing. I think more caution and social isolation is the right answer. If we assume government action is the solution to a pandemic, the most competent leader is North Korea?s Kim Jung Un, plus a handful of banana republic dictators in central Africa. We live in unique times. We can get real information now, without having to have it filtered through the government with its agenda, through news agencies with their own agenda. We have a number of reliable sources telling us to do something that makes a lot of sense: avoid human contact until this thing blows over. It really isn?t that hard to figure out. Sit quietly a minute and think your way out of a situation well-suited for thinking. And fer cryin out loud, stop with the damn TP, sheesh. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 2:26 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Darin Sunley Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In all likelihood, given the same realities on the ground, any hypothetical Republican President [and many hypothetical Democrat Presidents] would have done the same. There is no meaningful sense in which the election result can be said to have contributed to the current health crisis. Doing so is not, in normal times, an act of particular political or practical significance. No one sounded meaningful alarm bells while it was happening, and it's entirely possible Trump didn't even think about it for any longer than it took to assess the general capability of the civil servant who made the recommendation, if even that. He does need to stop shooting his mouth off at press conferences, though. I understand what he's trying to do - reassure a worried nation with confidence and projected power. The problem is that's the wrong emotional posture. That works for military and geopolitical threats, but this is more of a case for calm measured leadership. And, to put it mildly, reassuring a worried nation with calm, measured leadership is *not* Trump's strong suit. At his best he projects power and confidence, and does so very effectively, but *not* precision, measure, or self-control. He should leave that to Pence, who is noticeably better at it. On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 11:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: John do you see any significant difference between the two mainstream parties >?GOOD GOD YES! Except that the Republicans aren't mainstream anymore, nowadays they're America's Fascist Party? Again with the deities. Putting a different name on them doesn?t change their spending habits. Apparently we have two fascist parties now, for they are both spending money like the allied troops are approaching from all directions. >> I don?t accept your notion that borrowing can continue forever either. >?Why not? Because it leads to the obvious next step: if we can borrow forever, why do we pay taxes at all? Just borrow it all. Better yet, borrow more than that, buy up things of lasting value, pay back never. >?It's worked fine for nearly 200 years because improved technology lead to increasing productivity? Does the scheme fail when technology fails to keep increasing productivity? What if the markets for all that productivity fails? >?which means the dollar I borrow today can be paid back tomorrow with a dollar that is easier for me to obtain? For YOU to obtain? John didn?t you tell us you retired recently? You do not need to obtain anything. The next generation, which is smaller and earns less than you do must obtain those dollars to pay the debt we ran up before we retired. >?Because the Democrats made a mistake and didn't take computer security as seriously as they should have? So they were the ones who slew thousands? Or is it up to millions? >?but if I foolishly forget to lock my front door that doesn't mean it's OK for you to come in and steal everything I have? Previously you told us it was all just office gossip. But before that it somehow got whats-his-name elected which has slain thousands and is heading for the millions. So office gossip was stolen, which no one apparently ever read (did you? Neither did I) and somehow this influenced an election? Methinks there are some steps missing in your proof. >?What are you talking about, when Russia hacked the Democrats? How do we know the Russians did this? The ?evidence? cited by our FBI was Russian comments inserted here and there. One of the IT team was Ukrainian and is fluent in Russian. So we had a few Russian comments in a pile of office gossip which no one ever read, when the party refused to give the server to the FBI. The FBI got it after the fact from CloudStrike, an IT company headed by a Ukrainian who hates Russia with a passion seldom seen. So I am back to: How do we know the Russians did this? >?Putin got something of incredible value, his boy in the White House? How do we know office gossip had anything to do with either boy? Are we not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? >?Assange's actions will result in the death of thousands and perhaps millions of people and I stand by every word of that statement? > Have you any evidence of that notion? >?On February 26 Trump said there were 15 cases of COVID-19 ? {?Cutting a full paragraph having to do with covid, nothing to do with Julian Assange.} >?Did Julian Assange have half a brain? Do we have a trace of evidence Assange had any role in spreading covid? Do explain that please, starting with he published some office gossip, then fill in some steps between that and covid slays thousands. >>?Assange ? must have known nobody would perform more incompetently in a crises than Donald Trump? > Evidence please? How would he know that? >?Oh I don't know,... having less inflation adjusted money now then he had decades ago when he was given money by his daddy, owning a casino and failing to make money off of it, and 6 bankruptcies might have given him a clue, or just listening to the man talk for 5 minutes? Assange?s father has casinos? John I am not asking about casinos, I am wanting to know how you get from Julian Assange publishing office gossip to a virus slaying thousands. This is as dramatic a leap as Fermat writing that he had discovered a marvelous proof but it was too large to fit in the margin. Are we not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? >?So... do you really think publishers are in the habit of publishing anything and everything anybody sets before them? Online publishing is free. The content is free. The content was political. Of course Assange will publish everything he can get his paws on. That?s what he does. >>?And although it received far less publicity the fact is the Republican National Committee was also hacked by Vladimir Putin's goons? > Evidence? Russia Hacked 'Older' Republican Emails, FBI Director Says Republicans also hacked by Russia Did the Russians give it to Assange? How do we know? >?I see nothing contradictory in it and this certainly wouldn't be the first time careers and lives have been ruined by gossip ? > Trivial office gossip killed thousand or millions now? Do break down this line of reasoning step by step please, Step#1)Trivial office gossip provided by Julian Assange? Provided BY Julian Assange? Did you mean TO Julian Assange? >? 53,650 voters in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan that Donald J Trump was more moral than Hillary Clinton? I didn?t read any of the office gossip, I have no reason to think it had anything to do with any particular politician?s moral standings. John the material is public. Before you go past that step, do quote us something that would indicate the office gossip was about anyone?s moral standings. Failing that, work that step that 53,650 voters were influenced by office gossip about a particular politician?s moral standings. I just don?t see it. >?Step#2) Trump won as a result? John K Clark OK we need a loooot more detail here. We need some indication that a far bigger factor was not the material found on Carlos Danger?s laptop computer. >?Step #3)? Little point in going past here. I am still wondering how office gossip (I have never met anyone who claims to have read it) somehow influenced all those voters in those three particular states to vote a certain way. I can?t think of how these office workers would have had any particular knowledge of any particular candidate?s morals. If they did, why didn?t any of that material ever make it into the mainstream press? Juicy gossip sells like hotcakes on the internet. I don?t recall any of that leaked email ever being quoted. Do you? I would suppose it is still around somewhere. In step 2, you theorize that office gossip that no one actually read or even quoted, overturned an election, while overlooking the obvious: the voters didn?t like the candidate and most voters did not vote for her. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 21:56:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 17:56:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:35 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I don't entirely know what they or you expected Trump to do. * > How about a emergency order by the federal government to ventilator manufacturers to buy a half a million ventilators to supplement the 62,000 that already exist in the country and are already in almost constant use? The order should have been placed in January but better late than never; however thanks to the very stable genius it looks like we're going to get never. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:09:38 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 16:09:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >... Sit quietly a minute and think your way out of a situation well-suited for thinking. And fer cryin out loud, stop with the damn TP, sheesh. And keep contributing fixed amounts to the market index funds in your 401K. Because the fundamentals of the economy haven't gone anywhere, dollar-cost averaging is a wonderful, wonderful thing, and the upward market correction when the investor panic blows over is gonna look like an elevator! On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 3:54 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >?The only way in which Trump can even remotely be said to be > directly responsible for the government's response to covid is that he cut > the CDC budget?This was not a uniquely Trumpian mistake? Darin > > > > Caution Darin, with such a balanced post, you are likely to be accused of > being part of a Fascist plot to slay thousands, possibly millions. > > > > The assumption is that a CDC funded with more money could have done > better. That isn?t clear to me at all, and is based on a number of > speculative assumptions. I keep hearing we didn?t have enough test kits > and so forth, but what if? there had been enough test kits. We test > everyone in the USA. We isolate those who test positive. > > > > Then a few days later cases begin to appear again, so we spend another few > hundred billion, repeat. Then, many of those already tested think they are > immune, they catch it, spread it, now a third round of testing for a few > hundred billion more dollars. Repeat until failure is obvious to all. > > > > Test kits were not the answer and might have made the problem worse, after > a crushing expense. Government run medical systems were not the answer > (Europe has those, they have been hit harder than the USA.) More kits were > not the answer. Social isolation is probably the right answer, and the USA > was good on that. > > > > I confess I get my news from Reason.com so there are those who would argue > I have a warped perspective. Shrugs. I don?t think more government is the > answer to this kind of thing. I think more caution and social isolation is > the right answer. > > > > If we assume government action is the solution to a pandemic, the most > competent leader is North Korea?s Kim Jung Un, plus a handful of banana > republic dictators in central Africa. > > > > We live in unique times. We can get real information now, without having > to have it filtered through the government with its agenda, through news > agencies with their own agenda. We have a number of reliable sources > telling us to do something that makes a lot of sense: avoid human contact > until this thing blows over. It really isn?t that hard to figure out. Sit > quietly a minute and think your way out of a situation well-suited for > thinking. And fer cryin out loud, stop with the damn TP, sheesh. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2020 2:26 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Darin Sunley > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > In all likelihood, given the same realities on the ground, any > hypothetical Republican President [and many hypothetical Democrat > Presidents] would have done the same. There is no meaningful sense in which > the election result can be said to have contributed to the current health > crisis. > > > > Doing so is not, in normal times, an act of particular political or > practical significance. No one sounded meaningful alarm bells while it was > happening, and it's entirely possible Trump didn't even think about it for > any longer than it took to assess the general capability of the civil > servant who made the recommendation, if even that. > > > > He does need to stop shooting his mouth off at press conferences, though. > I understand what he's trying to do - reassure a worried nation with > confidence and projected power. The problem is that's the wrong emotional > posture. That works for military and geopolitical threats, but this is more > of a case for calm measured leadership. And, to put it mildly, reassuring a > worried nation with calm, measured leadership is *not* Trump's strong suit. > At his best he projects power and confidence, and does so very effectively, > but *not* precision, measure, or self-control. He should leave that to > Pence, who is noticeably better at it. > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 11:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *John do you see any significant difference between the two mainstream > parties* > > > > *>?GOOD GOD YES! *Except that the Republicans aren't mainstream anymore, > nowadays they're America's Fascist Party? > > > > Again with the deities. Putting a different name on them doesn?t change > their spending habits. Apparently we have two fascist parties now, for > they are both spending money like the allied troops are approaching from > all directions. > > > > >> I don?t accept your notion that borrowing can continue forever either. > > > > >?Why not? > > > > Because it leads to the obvious next step: if we can borrow forever, why > do we pay taxes at all? Just borrow it all. Better yet, borrow more than > that, buy up things of lasting value, pay back never. > > > > >?It's worked fine for nearly 200 years because improved technology lead > to increasing productivity? > > > > Does the scheme fail when technology fails to keep increasing > productivity? What if the markets for all that productivity fails? > > > > >?which means the dollar I borrow today can be paid back tomorrow with a > dollar that is easier for me to obtain? > > > > For YOU to obtain? John didn?t you tell us you retired recently? You do > not need to obtain anything. The next generation, which is smaller and > earns less than you do must obtain those dollars to pay the debt we ran up > before we retired. > > > > > > >?Because the Democrats made a mistake and didn't take computer security > as seriously as they should have? > > > > So they were the ones who slew thousands? Or is it up to millions? > > > > >?but if I foolishly forget to lock my front door that doesn't mean it's > OK for you to come in and steal everything I have? > > > > Previously you told us it was all just office gossip. But before that it > somehow got whats-his-name elected which has slain thousands and is heading > for the millions. So office gossip was stolen, which no one apparently > ever read (did you? Neither did I) and somehow this influenced an election? > > > > Methinks there are some steps missing in your proof. > > > > > > >?What are you talking about, when Russia hacked the Democrats? > > > > How do we know the Russians did this? The ?evidence? cited by our FBI was > Russian comments inserted here and there. One of the IT team was Ukrainian > and is fluent in Russian. So we had a few Russian comments in a pile of > office gossip which no one ever read, when the party refused to give the > server to the FBI. The FBI got it after the fact from CloudStrike, an IT > company headed by a Ukrainian who hates Russia with a passion seldom seen. > > > > So I am back to: How do we know the Russians did this? > > > > >?Putin got something of incredible value, his boy in the White House? > > > > How do we know office gossip had anything to do with either boy? Are we > not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? > > > > > > >?Assange's actions will result in the death of thousands and perhaps > millions of people and I stand by every word of that statement? > > > > *> **Have you any evidence of that notion?* > > > > > > >?On February 26 Trump said there were 15 cases of COVID-19 ? > > > > {?Cutting a full paragraph having to do with covid, nothing to do with > Julian Assange.} > > > > >?Did Julian Assange have half a brain? > > > > Do we have a trace of evidence Assange had any role in spreading covid? > Do explain that please, starting with he published some office gossip, then > fill in some steps between that and covid slays thousands. > > > > > > > > >>?Assange ? must have known nobody would perform more incompetently in a > crises than Donald Trump? > > > *> Evidence please? How would he know that?* > > > > >?Oh I don't know,... having less inflation adjusted money now then he had > decades ago when he was given money by his daddy, owning a casino and > failing to make money off of it, and 6 bankruptcies might have given him a > clue, or just listening to the man talk for 5 minutes? > > > > Assange?s father has casinos? > > > > John I am not asking about casinos, I am wanting to know how you get from > Julian Assange publishing office gossip to a virus slaying thousands. This > is as dramatic a leap as Fermat writing that he had discovered a marvelous > proof but it was too large to fit in the margin. > > > > Are we not overlooking the perfectly obvious please? > > > > > > >?So... do you really think publishers are in the habit of publishing > anything and everything anybody sets before them? > > > > Online publishing is free. The content is free. The content was > political. Of course Assange will publish everything he can get his paws > on. That?s what he does. > > > > > > >>?And although it received far less publicity the fact is the Republican > National Committee was also hacked by Vladimir Putin's goons? > > > > *> **Evidence? * > > > > Russia Hacked 'Older' Republican Emails, FBI Director Says > > > > > > Republicans also hacked by Russia > > > > > Did the Russians give it to Assange? How do we know? > > > > > > >?I see nothing contradictory in it and this certainly wouldn't be the > first time careers and lives have been ruined by gossip ? > > > > > Trivial office gossip killed thousand or millions now? Do break down > this line of reasoning step by step please, > > > > Step#1)Trivial office gossip provided by Julian Assange? > > > > Provided BY Julian Assange? Did you mean TO Julian Assange? > > > > >? 53,650 voters in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan that Donald J > Trump was more moral than Hillary Clinton? > > > > I didn?t read any of the office gossip, I have no reason to think it had > anything to do with any particular politician?s moral standings. John the > material is public. Before you go past that step, do quote us something > that would indicate the office gossip was about anyone?s moral standings. > Failing that, work that step that 53,650 voters were influenced by office > gossip about a particular politician?s moral standings. I just don?t see > it. > > > > > > >?Step#2) Trump won as a result? John K Clark > > > > OK we need a loooot more detail here. > > > > We need some indication that a far bigger factor was not the material > found on Carlos Danger?s laptop computer. > > > > >?Step #3)? > > > > Little point in going past here. I am still wondering how office gossip > (I have never met anyone who claims to have read it) somehow influenced all > those voters in those three particular states to vote a certain way. > > > > I can?t think of how these office workers would have had any particular > knowledge of any particular candidate?s morals. If they did, why didn?t > any of that material ever make it into the mainstream press? Juicy gossip > sells like hotcakes on the internet. I don?t recall any of that leaked > email ever being quoted. Do you? I would suppose it is still around > somewhere. > > > > In step 2, you theorize that office gossip that no one actually read or > even quoted, overturned an election, while overlooking the obvious: the > voters didn?t like the candidate and most voters did not vote for her. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:14:11 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 16:14:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do the manufacturers have anything like that much extra manufacturing capacity at all, let alone domestically, what with China being temporarily out of the picture? That's not obvious to me. It's not like Amazon spinning up ten thousand extra web servers because your URL is gonna get name-dropped on a national talk show tonight. On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 4:04 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:35 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I don't entirely know what they or you expected Trump to do. * >> > > How about a emergency order by the federal government to ventilator > manufacturers to buy a half a million ventilators to supplement the 62,000 > that already exist in the country and are already in almost constant use? > The order should have been placed in January but better late than never; > however thanks to the very stable genius it looks like we're going to get > never. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:13:47 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 18:13:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *The assumption is that a CDC funded with more money could have done > better. That isn?t clear to me at all, and is based on a number of > speculative assumptions. I keep hearing we didn?t have enough test kits > and so forth, but* [...] I'm not surprised you keep hearing that, nor am I surprised you added a "but". So you're right and every epidemiologist in the country is wrong when they insist that early testing is vitally important. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:20:53 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 18:20:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No. There are competing orders from other governments and a year's worth of manufacturing from what I've seen. I'm sure they'll deliver as fast as possible though. On Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 6:17 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Do the manufacturers have anything like that much extra manufacturing > capacity at all, let alone domestically, what with China being temporarily > out of the picture? That's not obvious to me. > > It's not like Amazon spinning up ten thousand extra web servers because > your URL is gonna get name-dropped on a national talk show tonight. > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 4:04 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:35 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> I don't entirely know what they or you expected Trump to do. * >>> >> >> How about a emergency order by the federal government to ventilator >> manufacturers to buy a half a million ventilators to supplement the 62,000 >> that already exist in the country and are already in almost constant use? >> The order should have been placed in January but better late than never; >> however thanks to the very stable genius it looks like we're going to get >> never. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:26:11 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 17:26:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <006c01d5f619$bbf81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> Here?s another fun one: My apartment complex no longer accept packages. Go to the post office to pick them up ? take filthy public transit to a now-crowded post office (came down from corporate), wait in the filthy post office with the unwashed apartment dwellers, then lean all over a diseased counter, then take the HUGE 3x4 package back on the freaking bus. Brilliant I tell you, absolutely brilliant! Really going to reduce COVID-19 exposure. SR Ballard > On Mar 9, 2020, at 1:53 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 11:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > Low interest rates seduce the US government into borrowing more and more money. In addition, plenty of homeowners have borrowed money against their homes at low interest rates, hoping to invest in the stock market with their equity. This sets up a ticking time-bomb. > > Low interest rates like we have now means there is a HUGE pile of money wanting to be loaned out and a much smaller pile of investors wanting to borrow money. And a small inflation rate like we have now means there are more machines that are making things that people want to buy than there are machines that are making dollar bills. Incidentally just today the price of West Texas Intermediate Crude Oil dropped by 22%, the largest one day drop in history. So it looks like inflation isn't going to be a big problem anytime soon but don't celebrate too much, inflation wasn't a big problem in 1929 either. Speaking of 1929, the market hasn't closed yet but as of right now the Dow Jones Industrial Average is down over 2100 points. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:33:24 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 16:33:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Higher funding for the CDC may very well have ameliorated the quality control issues they had with the test kits that did get sent out. It would probably *not* have helped with the policy and process issues that restricted local authorities from testing on their own initiative. That was a failure in leadership and organizational culture that I fear is entirely bipartisan. On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 4:24 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *The assumption is that a CDC funded with more money could have done >> better. That isn?t clear to me at all, and is based on a number of >> speculative assumptions. I keep hearing we didn?t have enough test kits >> and so forth, but* [...] > > > I'm not surprised you keep hearing that, nor am I surprised you added a > "but". So you're right and every epidemiologist in the country is wrong > when they insist that early testing is vitally important. > > John K Clark > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 22:37:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 15:37:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d101d5fbe3$8b332330$a1996990$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > The assumption is that a CDC funded with more money could have done better. That isn?t clear to me at all, and is based on a number of speculative assumptions. I keep hearing we didn?t have enough test kits and so forth, but [...] >?I'm not surprised you keep hearing that, nor am I surprised you added a "but". So you're right and every epidemiologist in the country is wrong when they insist that early testing is vitally important. John K Clark I mentioned the possibility of early testing. What about testing the same people a week later? They can still catch it from those who initially tested negative and now think they can sneeze into the wind. Then the next day, junior coughs and in he goes for another test. The US doesn?t have the manufacturing capacity for all the test kits that would be required to test our way out. A better approach is serious social distancing, which does not require any particular action on the part of the authorities. None of the candidates for leadership inspire a bit of confidence. Perhaps we are forced to the last resort: self-reliance. How shall we cope? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:40:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 17:40:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Question for all: by what criteria do you decide a news outlet is unbiased? Do you know of any? How do you know they are what they say they are? Because their opinions agree with yours? bill w On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:25 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *The assumption is that a CDC funded with more money could have done >> better. That isn?t clear to me at all, and is based on a number of >> speculative assumptions. I keep hearing we didn?t have enough test kits >> and so forth, but* [...] > > > I'm not surprised you keep hearing that, nor am I surprised you added a > "but". So you're right and every epidemiologist in the country is wrong > when they insist that early testing is vitally important. > > John K Clark > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 22:48:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 15:48:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <006c01d5f619$bb f81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f501d5fbe5$00cfd240$026f76c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid Here?s another fun one: My apartment complex no longer accept packages. Go to the post office to pick them up ? take filthy public transit to a now-crowded post office (came down from corporate), wait in the filthy post office with the unwashed apartment dwellers, then lean all over a diseased counter, then take the HUGE 3x4 package back on the freaking bus. Brilliant I tell you, absolutely brilliant! Really going to reduce COVID-19 exposure. SR Ballard Luxury! Our local CDC is urging everyone to shelter in place, restaurants to offer only take-out, non-essential businesses to suspend operation, schools to close, harlots to get dressed, the works. Life comes to a temporary stop. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 22:52:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 15:52:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010101d5fbe5$970816f0$c51844d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?How about a emergency order by the federal government to ventilator manufacturers to buy a half a million ventilators to supplement the 62,000 that already exist ? John K Clark Every manufacturing facility for ventilators on the planet is already going at capacity with orders they cannot fill in the easily foreseeable. The radio opined that people are already dying in Italy for lack of ventilators and many more may soon follow. Another order for ventilators would have not helped a bit. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 23:15:57 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 17:15:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There is no such thing as an unbiased news outlet, not where anything related to red tribe / blue tribe conflicts in Western Civilization is reported. Partisan bias makes far too many people click on ads and contribute to your eyeball count. There's no money to be made being unbiased, so no one does it. The only way you get a remotely balanced picture is reading pages and pages of commentators arguing about the biased news stories. ... There are occasionally unbiased scientific papers. On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Question for all: by what criteria do you decide a news outlet is > unbiased? Do you know of any? How do you know they are what they say they > are? Because their opinions agree with yours? > > bill w > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:25 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > *The assumption is that a CDC funded with more money could have done >>> better. That isn?t clear to me at all, and is based on a number of >>> speculative assumptions. I keep hearing we didn?t have enough test kits >>> and so forth, but* [...] >> >> >> I'm not surprised you keep hearing that, nor am I surprised you added a >> "but". So you're right and every epidemiologist in the country is wrong >> when they insist that early testing is vitally important. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 23:19:17 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 18:19:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <00f501d5fbe5$00cfd240$026f76c0$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <006c01d5f619$bb f81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> <00f501d5fbe5$00cfd240$026f76c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <3DB2003E-8BDB-4867-87A2-433FFCF4D69D@gmail.com> > Luxury! > > Our local CDC is urging everyone to shelter in place, restaurants to offer only take-out, non-essential businesses to suspend operation, schools to close, harlots to get dressed, the works. Life comes to a temporary stop. > > spike Absolutely the same here. Two weeks is one thing. But it?s not looking like 2 weeks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 16 23:19:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 16:19:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011f01d5fbe9$5ca33810$15e9a830$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong Question for all: by what criteria do you decide a news outlet is unbiased? Do you know of any? How do you know they are what they say they are? Because their opinions agree with yours? bill w Of course. Since we have been released from the expense of print media, we can tailor news sites to the specific assumptions held by those willing to view the most advertisement on the sidebars. When a town is no longer dependent on a particular news source, there is no need to be ?neutral? which is why news sources are polarized. My favorite news source is Reason.com, for they hold the assumption that we must become less dependent on government. Eventually independence will be forced upon us. My notion is to get practiced at it now. BillW, all news sources are biased. They all hold assumptions. Find one that agrees with yours. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 23:45:14 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 19:45:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions In-Reply-To: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 12:13 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *Greek Orthodox churches across the country will allow congregations of > hundreds of people to sip wine from the same spoon during mass because "the > holy cup cannot carry disease," the Archdiocese said.* > > > > > https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-14/church-religious-groups-say-coronavirus-cannot-infect-them/12055476 > > > > "But once we decide to go to church, we believe there is absolutely no > possibility of contracting disease from the holy cup," he said. > > "We believe that no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which > we believe is the body and blood of Christ," Reverend Scoutas said. > > > > > ### Interesting, there is something similar going on in Iran, where a few faithful defiantly licked the gate of a shrine in Qom a couple of weeks ago. The story continues with satellite images showing mass graves being dug in that city. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 23:58:00 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 19:58:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:12 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >... Sit quietly a minute and think your way out of a situation > well-suited for thinking. And fer cryin out loud, stop with the damn TP, > sheesh. > > And keep contributing fixed amounts to the market index funds in your 401K. > ### I just (almost) maxed out my HELOC and transferred funds to my CBP, I'll let my plan administrator decide when to allocate. If you have money in a mattress, a HELOC, a paid-off car, anything you can use as collateral, now is time to buy, buy, buy. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 00:02:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 19:02:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The really great investment advice, surely practiced by those in the know, was of a month ago: sell, sell, sell, and sell short. That's how the fortunes were made during the crash of '29. Rafal must thing the market has hit bottom, eh Rafal? bill w On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 7:00 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:12 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >... Sit quietly a minute and think your way out of a situation >> well-suited for thinking. And fer cryin out loud, stop with the damn TP, >> sheesh. >> >> And keep contributing fixed amounts to the market index funds in your >> 401K. >> > > ### I just (almost) maxed out my HELOC and transferred funds to my CBP, > I'll let my plan administrator decide when to allocate. > > If you have money in a mattress, a HELOC, a paid-off car, anything you can > use as collateral, now is time to buy, buy, buy. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 00:03:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 19:03:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <011f01d5fbe9$5ca33810$15e9a830$@rainier66.com> References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> <011f01d5fbe9$5ca33810$15e9a830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I found a whole bunch of articles from the Baltimore Sun of many years ago, written by H. L. Mencken, far too intelligent to be found anywhere today in popular outlets. I have a collection of his, entitled A Mencken Chrestomathy, and that is just a sample of the words you might have to look up. His views on numerous subjects, ascerbic, of course, show a highly learned and intelligent man. Who knew he was such a superior writer? Me, now. He hates schools of education as much as I do. What he wrote on many subjects could easily have been written today (though a publisher would be hard to find). Very highly recommended. bill w On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > Question for all: by what criteria do you decide a news outlet is > unbiased? Do you know of any? How do you know they are what they say they > are? Because their opinions agree with yours? > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > Of course. Since we have been released from the expense of print media, > we can tailor news sites to the specific assumptions held by those willing > to view the most advertisement on the sidebars. When a town is no longer > dependent on a particular news source, there is no need to be ?neutral? > which is why news sources are polarized. > > > > My favorite news source is Reason.com, for they hold the assumption that > we must become less dependent on government. Eventually independence will > be forced upon us. My notion is to get practiced at it now. > > > > BillW, all news sources are biased. They all hold assumptions. Find one > that agrees with yours. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 00:05:03 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 18:05:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There exists a non-zero possibility that those graves in Iran are intended not so much for covid-19 victims as for the victims of an anticipated epidemic of lead poisoning, especially in their prisons. Political protests are notorious for the quality of water being served there as well. On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:49 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 12:13 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> *Greek Orthodox churches across the country will allow congregations of >> hundreds of people to sip wine from the same spoon during mass because "the >> holy cup cannot carry disease," the Archdiocese said.* >> >> >> >> >> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-14/church-religious-groups-say-coronavirus-cannot-infect-them/12055476 >> >> >> >> "But once we decide to go to church, we believe there is absolutely no >> possibility of contracting disease from the holy cup," he said. >> >> "We believe that no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which >> we believe is the body and blood of Christ," Reverend Scoutas said. >> >> >> >> >> > ### Interesting, there is something similar going on in Iran, where a few > faithful defiantly licked the gate of a shrine in Qom a couple of weeks ago. > > The story continues with satellite images showing mass graves being dug in > that city. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 00:05:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 19:05:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <3DB2003E-8BDB-4867-87A2-433FFCF4D69D@gmail.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> <00f501d5fbe5$00cfd240$026f76c0$@rainier66.com> <3DB2003E-8BDB-4867-87A2-433FFCF4D69D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Close everything but the library. Alas, they did not listen to me. Will have to buy books for how long? Can you imagine the criteria they will use to tell everyone to get out and support the economy, go back to work, to school, etc.? Look out for false positives in the decisions. bill w On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:34 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Luxury! > > > > Our local CDC is urging everyone to shelter in place, restaurants to offer > only take-out, non-essential businesses to suspend operation, schools to > close, harlots to get dressed, the works. Life comes to a temporary stop. > > > > spike > > > Absolutely the same here. > > Two weeks is one thing. But it?s not looking like 2 weeks. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 00:06:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 19:06:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] greeks are plotting to kill thousands, perhaps millions In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d5fbad$95304420$bf90cc60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Does anyone in this group find the religious peoples' actions surprising? bill w On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:49 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 12:13 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> *Greek Orthodox churches across the country will allow congregations of >> hundreds of people to sip wine from the same spoon during mass because "the >> holy cup cannot carry disease," the Archdiocese said.* >> >> >> >> >> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-14/church-religious-groups-say-coronavirus-cannot-infect-them/12055476 >> >> >> >> "But once we decide to go to church, we believe there is absolutely no >> possibility of contracting disease from the holy cup," he said. >> >> "We believe that no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which >> we believe is the body and blood of Christ," Reverend Scoutas said. >> >> >> >> >> > ### Interesting, there is something similar going on in Iran, where a few > faithful defiantly licked the gate of a shrine in Qom a couple of weeks ago. > > The story continues with satellite images showing mass graves being dug in > that city. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 00:12:30 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 20:12:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 8:02 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > The really great investment advice, surely practiced by those in the know, > was of a month ago: sell, sell, sell, and sell short. That's how the > fortunes were made during the crash of '29. Rafal must thing the market > has hit bottom, eh Rafal? > ### As I said, I'll let my plan administrator do the allocation, so the exact timing is up to the pros. I would not be surprised if there was still some way down, regardless of the glimmers of positive news (such as the CFR being much lower than expected), since the panic is amplified by irrational mass media as well as the echo chambers of social media. If you sold a month ago, now you would be sitting on a pile of cash, ready to pounce when it hits bottom. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 02:00:44 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 22:00:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Libertarianism In-Reply-To: <634DAA25-F85E-4915-A144-D13616AC951A@gmail.com> References: <825853705.771957.1579379997535@mail.yahoo.com> <634DAA25-F85E-4915-A144-D13616AC951A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 3:57 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Personal autonomy, yes, but not obedience to others or a right to rule > over others. If there's a duty to obey someone, that would mean the > obedient don't have personal autonomy, no? The right to rule is the flip > side of this. > > You seem to conflate being ruled by someone else with respecting their > autonomy. That's simply not the case in the ordinary meaning of being ruled > or of obeying. (No one is someone's obedient servant merely because they > don't rob, assault, or kill that person. No one is someone's ruler because > that other person doesn't rob, assault, or kill them. If you disagree, then > your world must abound in rulers and servants in a way that the terms make > no distinctions over anyone save for folks living apart from everyone > else.) In fact, an attack on someone's person or life is someone else > really attempting to rule over them. It's treating them as if they're not > autonomous -- not an end in themselves. And the right to stop them extends > only so far as preserving autonomy. That doesn't put one into relationship > as their ruler -- as the right ends when they're stopped (and maybe, in > some cases, restitution* or further harm prevention+). > > ### Talking about rights and duties is really sliding on the surface of social reality. There are deeper structures and ideas that generate the notions of rights and duties. I find it much more productive and enlightening to understand where my social instincts come from, and where existing social structures come from, rather than treating the instincts and structures as independently valid moral considerations. Symmetry is an important aspect of many control solutions in complex systems. Throughout biology and technology symmetric structures abound. Symmetry goes by a few different names in different contexts - for example, balance, as in the balance between opposing muscle groups in a limb. In the social realm we speak about "reciprocity", that special kind of symmetry applied to interactions between agents attempting to survive in the presence of similar competing agents. In many such interactions the most efficient control solution is symmetric with regard to the amount of influence that such agents are allowed to exert over each other. If you combine symmetry of influence with minimization of influence you get the notion of personal autonomy. It is important not to reify autonomy as an independent moral consideration. Not all combinations of agents, their desires and their surrounding reality allow efficient symmetric control solutions. Very often the asymmetry between agents favors asymmetric control solutions, i.e. disregard for autonomy. Humans and dogs are not symmetric, so the control solution between man and dog involves a leash. The asymmetry between an honest builder and a thief favors depriving the thief of his autonomy as a condition of economic efficiency. Some people tend to get hung up on the notions of rights, duties, autonomy, lawfulness, respectability, fairness, private property, community - all of these are intermediate ideas that simplify and summarize thinking about the more fundamental notions in the social realm, such as desires, symmetry, or efficiency. If the fundamental considerations dictate some modifications of the intermediate levels, then that should happen. When attacked, there is no need to limit your response to demanding restitution - it's fine to exact punishment much greater than the harm the befalls you, and it's perfectly libertarian, the way I see it. That's why I prefer to think about libertarianism as the desire to live without the desire to control others ("Live and let live") + the scientific method (recognition of the fundamental mechanisms of reality). The precise rights, duties and instrumental values (such as autonomy) that are derived from the above fundamentals differ for various situations - most of the time libertarian thought leads to e.g. limiting government solutions and respect for autonomy but sometimes just the opposite. It really depends, and first-principles thinking must be flexibly combined with detailed knowledge of the problems at hand. And of course there are those people who greatly desire to control others, that's just how they roll and that's how you tell they are not libertarians. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 02:04:44 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 22:04:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: <010101d5fbe5$970816f0$c51844d0$@rainier66.com> References: <010101d5fbe5$970816f0$c51844d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > soon follow. Another order for ventilators would have not helped a bit. > How complex are these machines? Can the parts be 3d printed and assembled? We have a lot of people doing not much but watching tv, surely there could be a crowdsource option if anyone could organize and execute a plan. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 05:30:21 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 06:30:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: <010101d5fbe5$970816f0$c51844d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7206919_In_the_beginning_The_1952-1953_Danish_epidemic_of_poliomyelitis_and_Bjorn_Ibsen This just begins to describe the great epidemic in Denmark and to some extent Sweden. The Danes invented the modern positiv pressure ventilation blood gas analysis and some real improvement in tracheostomy during a very short timeframe. Bjorn Ibsen is a real hero and the production of several hundred newly invented respirators during those months is also heroic. There is much more on this subject, included a period before the ventilators was built when the basically drafted anyone to sit and hand ventilate patients with ambu bags. No ce or FDA approval there. . /Henrik Den tis 17 mars 2020 03:11Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > > soon follow. Another order for ventilators would have not helped a bit. >> > How complex are these machines? > > Can the parts be 3d printed and assembled? We have a lot of people doing > not much but watching tv, surely there could be a crowdsource option if > anyone could organize and execute a plan. > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 05:33:07 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 06:33:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: <010101d5fbe5$970816f0$c51844d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The answer to how complex is , not very. You can build them with a brushless modern electric motor pressure control and some level of control over oxygen levels. An Arduino build basically. /Henrik Den tis 17 mars 2020 06:30Henrik Ohrstrom skrev: > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7206919_In_the_beginning_The_1952-1953_Danish_epidemic_of_poliomyelitis_and_Bjorn_Ibsen > This just begins to describe the great epidemic in Denmark and to some > extent Sweden. The Danes invented the modern positiv pressure ventilation > blood gas analysis and some real improvement in tracheostomy during a very > short timeframe. Bjorn Ibsen is a real hero and the production of several > hundred newly invented respirators during those months is also heroic. > There is much more on this subject, included a period before the > ventilators was built when the basically drafted anyone to sit and hand > ventilate patients with ambu bags. > > No ce or FDA approval there. . > /Henrik > > Den tis 17 mars 2020 03:11Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > >> >> soon follow. Another order for ventilators would have not helped a bit. >>> >> How complex are these machines? >> >> Can the parts be 3d printed and assembled? We have a lot of people doing >> not much but watching tv, surely there could be a crowdsource option if >> anyone could organize and execute a plan. >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 11:19:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 07:19:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: <010101d5fbe5$970816f0$c51844d0$@rainier66.com> References: <010101d5fbe5$970816f0$c51844d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 7:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > >?How about a emergency order by the federal government to ventilator > manufacturers to buy a half a million ventilators to supplement the 62,000 > that already exist ? John K Clark > > > > *> Every manufacturing facility for ventilators on the planet is already > going at capacity* > Then get more manufacturing facilities. If during WWII Ford was flexible enough to switch from making cars to making B-24 bombers in a matter of months and GM change to making Sherman Tanks then air conditioner manufacturers could switch over to making ventilators on a scale never seen on this planet before. Of course during WWII the US had a competent administration that knew the difference between its ass and a hole and the ground to coordinate the entire thing, so I guess it's out of the question today. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 11:36:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 07:36:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: <010101d5fbe5$970816f0$c51844d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 10:11 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Can the parts be 3d printed and assembled? * > I don't know, I don't think anybody has even tried. If Trump appointed somebody like Elon Musk or Tim Cook as Ventilator Czar we'd find out pretty quick, but men like that could never get a job like that because competence is of trivial importance, only blind loyalty to Donald Trump is important. * > We have a lot of people doing not much but watching tv, surely there > could be a crowdsource option if anyone could organize and execute a plan. * > Another good idea a Ventilator Czar would undoubtedly have tested out in January and by today we'd already know if it was practical. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 12:08:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 08:08:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 7:28 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> There is no such thing as an unbiased news outlet, * > And I wouldn't want to read it even if such a thing did exist. I want a news outlet that has a bias toward important news at the expense of unimportant news and a marked bias toward true stories and not false stories. Being run by humans no outlet is perfect but some are better than others. For science news you can't beat Nature and the journal Science, for other news I'd pick The New York Times, The Washington Post, and although I don't like their editorial page The Wall Street Journal. At the other end of the spectrum at the very bottom of the birdcage I'd pick Alex Jones of InfoWar infamy and the noises coming out of Donald Trump's pie hole, with Fox News being only slightly above those two. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 12:27:27 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 08:27:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <006c01d5f619$bbf81270$33e83750$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:39 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Here?s another fun one: My apartment complex no longer accept packages. * > Wow! What brilliant mind came up with that idea? If all the stores are closed and you can't even buy something on Amazon then your options are rather limited. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 12:40:48 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 08:40:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: <010101d5fbe5$970816f0$c51844d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This may be of interest: https://hackaday.com/2020/03/12/ultimate-medical-hackathon-how-fast-can-we-design-and-deploy-an-open-source-ventilator/ On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 1:40 AM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The answer to how complex is , not very. You can build them with a > brushless modern electric motor pressure control and some level of control > over oxygen levels. An Arduino build basically. > /Henrik > > Den tis 17 mars 2020 06:30Henrik Ohrstrom > skrev: > >> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7206919_In_the_beginning_The_1952-1953_Danish_epidemic_of_poliomyelitis_and_Bjorn_Ibsen >> This just begins to describe the great epidemic in Denmark and to some >> extent Sweden. The Danes invented the modern positiv pressure ventilation >> blood gas analysis and some real improvement in tracheostomy during a very >> short timeframe. Bjorn Ibsen is a real hero and the production of several >> hundred newly invented respirators during those months is also heroic. >> There is much more on this subject, included a period before the >> ventilators was built when the basically drafted anyone to sit and hand >> ventilate patients with ambu bags. >> >> No ce or FDA approval there. . >> /Henrik >> >> Den tis 17 mars 2020 03:11Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: >> >>> >>> soon follow. Another order for ventilators would have not helped a bit. >>>> >>> How complex are these machines? >>> >>> Can the parts be 3d printed and assembled? We have a lot of people >>> doing not much but watching tv, surely there could be a crowdsource option >>> if anyone could organize and execute a plan. >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 13:31:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 09:31:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news Message-ID: Yesterday only one new case of locally originated COVID-19 was reported in China, it occurred in Wuhan where it all started. So the virus is not invincible it can be defeated, but of course China had a functioning federal government something the USA does not have. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 17 14:58:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 07:58:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] forward from another list Message-ID: <008201d5fc6c$7c35b620$74a12260$@rainier66.com> Cletus Nerd of Oregon wrote all the following: 1) Your Oregon lurker here. Online meetings will be interesting, though my locked-down Linux systems might not be able to run the apps, and I don't connect cameras to my computer, so in effect I shall continue to lurk. 2) We "hoard" toilet paper anyway - we have a filled cabinet above each toilet, which we endeavor to refill when the cabinet is six rolls short. Since we forget, it is often ten rolls short, and we try to keep enough TP in our storage area to do so. Possible/practical in Oregon; a Bay Area apartment/condo/tinyhouse doesn't have enough room. 3) Hoarding a few disinfecting wipe packages makes sense with stores running out and scalpers rampant, but I was unable to find a six month supply before the stores did run out. I hope most wipes ended up with people who are diligently trying to NOT get sick and infect me. Fortunately, we have a gallon of "Simple Green d pro 5" disinfectant, purchased last year "just because". The ingredients are IDENTICAL to our disinfectant wipes. Our plan is to save the used wipes and wash them in the clothes washer (they seem durable), then soak them in the Simple Green disinfectant and re-use them. Though we paid less last year, the disinfectant is still $25 per gallon from Amazon. We use the wipes to disinfect Amazon packages and their contents. Amazon HQ is co-located with coronavirus in Washington State; this might not be a coincidence. Disinfecting the Amazon box and the disinfectant bottle inside the box with the disinfectant inside the bottle presents an interesting topological/causality problem. If you can solve that, let me know. 4) Many of our preparations were general, made years ago. In 2015, we bought ten boxes of 3M N95 masks (50 per box) at the nearby Habitat for Humanity ReStore, $10 per box, thus 20 cents each. They are selling for $7 to $15 each on eBay now. We gave almost all of them away to senior centers and libraries during the forest fires over the last two summers; we have only a few left. If we had bought ALL the N95 masks at the ReStore in 2015 (about 100 boxes) and sold them on eBay now, we could pay off most of our remaining mortgage. Alternately, murdered in our sleep by thieves. 5) I installed a "D200" UVC lamp (2 bulb, 254nm, 14 watts UV output) in our air-conditioner return duct. If you own your house/condo, or can convince your apartment landlord that you are capable of sheet metal work, this might be a good way to protect yourself from infectious neighbors. About $110 from Amazon. I also purchased extra lamps and some sheet metal tools. I installed ours with #8 machine screw insert nuts rather than the supplied sheet metal screws. This took longer to install, but with thumb-screws it will be easier to replace the bulbs annually, and we won't wear out the screw-holes in the sheet metal. 6) Many other preparations, most of which I will not share with Cthulu-knows-who on this list, beyond suggesting that aspiring miscreants should be bulletproof and have a low infrared signature. If the next plague is ice zombies, we're screwed. Cletus Nerd 1313 SW Taylor Portland OR 97205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 17 15:05:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 08:05:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009101d5fc6d$8453d8e0$8cfb8aa0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?but of course China had a functioning federal government something the USA does not have. John K Clark Are we promoting communism now John? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:20:52 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 08:20:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2020, at 4:22 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 7:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >> >> >> >?How about a emergency order by the federal government to ventilator manufacturers to buy a half a million ventilators to supplement the 62,000 that already exist ? John K Clark >> >> >> >> > Every manufacturing facility for ventilators on the planet is already going at capacity >> > > Then get more manufacturing facilities. If during WWII Ford was flexible enough to switch from making cars to making B-24 bombers in a matter of months The B-24 was made by Consolidated, an aircraft company founded in the early 1920s. It was based on designs from before the US entered the war. Also, there was a lead time before US entry into the war where US manufacturers of war stuff were supplying the UK and France from the start of the European (via the cash and carry policy and then the Lend-Lease follow up). So this wasn?t Consolidated going from making, say, single engine crop dusters to making long range bombers in months. Instead, it had over a decade of experience making military aircraft. (Granted, WW2 really ramped up aircraft innovation.) > and GM change to making Sherman Tanks The Sherman tank was likewise designed and prototypes before US entry into the war. GM did make it, but Ford did, along with many other companies. And I don?t mean Ford took parts from other companies. Instead, other companies built the tank along with Ford. Again, too, this was stimulated by the UK demand for war stuff before the US declared war. So, it wasn?t like the US declared war and then asked these companies to throw together some tanks. > then air conditioner manufacturers could switch over to making ventilators on a scale never seen on this planet before. Of course during WWII the US had a competent administration that knew the difference between its ass and a hole and the ground to coordinate the entire thing, so I guess it's out of the question today. The analogy kind of breaks down here. Much waste and idiocy happened during WW2 particularly because of federal oversight. (Look at the history of US torpedos as an example.) The big differences between now and then are that there 1) workers could be easily shifted over to manufacturing because of chronic unemployment then (unlike now) and 2) European demand for war stuff had been stimulating demand for two years before the war. (On the latter point, the late 1930s even before Germany invaded Poland was already stimulating this demand for other wars like the Spanish Civil War and the Second Sino-Japanese War. By comparison, the virus scare now kind of came out of nowhere... okay, not really. The Ebola scare and SARS should?ve signaled something, but this wasn?t like the UK buying up bombers in 1940.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:30:26 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 08:30:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1E095C70-C6AC-4095-9E2D-E5A11AE5F054@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2020, at 6:34 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? > Yesterday only one new case of locally originated COVID-19 was reported in China, it occurred in Wuhan where it all started. So the virus is not invincible it can be defeated, but of course China had a functioning federal government something the USA does not have. China has a president for life who disappears people. It has a highly centralized authoritarian government with attendant corruption. Its government also hid details about the problem early on and continued to be quite hazy on what was happened until it reached the international crisis stage. Their behavior here is like the Soviets during Chernobyl. Hardly something to emulate. And this isn?t to praise Trump. No doubt, Trump would love if the US were as authoritarian as China, especially with him being able to silence critics and control the media. (He?s already shown his proclivity got this, though thankfully he doesn?t yet have that power... I imagine we?ll see future US presidents achieving that.:/) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:43:36 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 11:43:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: <009101d5fc6d$8453d8e0$8cfb8aa0$@rainier66.com> References: <009101d5fc6d$8453d8e0$8cfb8aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 11:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > >?but of course China had a functioning federal government something the > USA does not have. John K Clark > > > > > > > Are we promoting communism now John? > I'm just presenting the facts. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 16:34:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 12:34:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 11:23 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>Then get more manufacturing facilities. If during WWII Ford was flexible >> enough to switch from making cars to making B-24 bombers in a matter of >> months > > > *> The B-24 was made by Consolidated, an aircraft company founded in the > early 1920s. It was based on designs from before the US entered the war.* > And designs for respirators existed long before the start of this pandemic. * > Also, there was a lead time before US entry into the war where US > manufacturers of war stuff were supplying the UK and France* > They started to convert Ford's Willow Run plant to make B-24s in October 1941, it took about a year before B-24s were coming off the assembly line but B-24s are a lot more complex than respirators especially in 1941 when a B24 was a very high tech thing. I can't think of anything more high tech that was mass produced in 1941 than a B24. >*Look at the history of US torpedos as an example.* That was not a problem cause by the massive acceleration of production but by a lack of testing and a fundamental error in design, several of them in fact; a flaw in the magnetic detonator, a flaw in the contact detonator, and a flaw in the depth gage that made them run 10 feet deeper than what they were set to do. The gyro-compass was also unreliable but that is a problem all torpedos of the period had to some degree or another, except for the Japanese, they had by far the best torpedo in the war, the US had by far the worst. > *>The Sherman tank was likewise designed and prototypes before US entry > into the war.* > Forget prototypes we already have respirators that are the real deal, just not enough of them. > *Much waste and idiocy happened during WW2 particularly because of > federal oversight. * > Yes, but no process is completely efficient and no doubt there will be lots of waste and idiocy in the mass manufacture of respirators too especially when you try to do it so fast, but despite it all they got the job done in WW2 so I don't see why we can't do the same today. Well no that's not true I do see why we can't do the same today and its name is Donald Trump. > > *workers could be easily shifted over to manufacturing because of > chronic unemployment then (unlike now)* > That may have been true a few weeks ago, but not now. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 17:05:13 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 13:05:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 09:33 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > [...] China had a functioning federal government something the USA does > not have. > What the fuck lol, praise is not due. Especially since their culture of cover-ups, secrecy and silence is a huge part of why this virus spread in the first place. You may be presenting facts but you are omitting facts too. As you know, sometimes a partial model with omitted variable bias is worse than no model at all. Such is the case with your statement, I think. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 17:13:44 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 13:13:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd add that while I don't agree with John's assessment, I'd rather have a problematic US government than a functioning Chinese Communist one that is running slave labor camps and likely harvesting organs from unwilling victims at a breathtaking pace. I also agree that John is NOT presenting critical facts in the Chinese response. If they hadn't covered up everything initially, the US might not even be in this situation right now. They're also currently running a propaganda campaign to extoll their brilliant response to a crisis that they allege the US infected them with. The sooner the West breaks the entire Chinese supply chain as much as possible, the sooner we're all better off. Letting them into the WTO turns out to be one of the worst decisions ever made. On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 1:06 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 09:33 John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> [...] China had a functioning federal government something the USA does >> not have. >> > > What the fuck lol, praise is not due. Especially since their culture of > cover-ups, secrecy and silence is a huge part of why this virus spread in > the first place. You may be presenting facts but you are omitting facts > too. As you know, sometimes a partial model with omitted variable bias is > worse than no model at all. Such is the case with your statement, I think. > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 17 17:18:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 10:18:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002001d5fc80$039f4280$0addc780$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] One small spark of good news On Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 09:33 John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: [...] China had a functioning federal government something the USA does not have. >? sometimes a partial model with omitted variable bias is worse than no model at all. Such is the case with your statement, I think? I have a spark of good news. The online learning plan is being rolled out, and so far it appears to be working. The comment site might be indicating the academically rich are getting richer and the academically poor are doing nothing. But the latter are enjoying three weeks off school while the others study. All the shelter-in-place talk is panicking the cat: https://www.facebook.com/dredream876/videos/223762925492093/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 17:50:29 2020 From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Mechado (CI)) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:50:29 -0300 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: <1E095C70-C6AC-4095-9E2D-E5A11AE5F054@gmail.com> References: <1E095C70-C6AC-4095-9E2D-E5A11AE5F054@gmail.com> Message-ID: China should be paying reparations for the rest of the world. They're the ones to blame for this mess From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 17:50:57 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 10:50:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] American hand sanitizer Message-ID: It has been pointed out that the key ingredient in hand sanitizer is alcohol, and thus that anyone worried that America would run out, just needs to look to the history of moonshine during Prohibition. If there are two manufacturing industries that will never be completely offshored from the USA, they are guns and booze. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 17 17:52:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 10:52:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004601d5fc84$c614eb40$523ec1c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] One small spark of good news >?The sooner the West breaks the entire Chinese supply chain as much as possible, the sooner we're all better off. Letting them into the WTO turns out to be one of the worst decisions ever made? I can think of another really bad decision, or rather a collection of decisions by city planners which aren?t looking good now. We have had hundreds of building permits issued for 5-story condos to deal with the affordable housing problem. It didn?t actually solve that problem but the philosophy is that the condos would be even more affordable if they had insufficient parking. This would compel people to use Uber and Lyft and the BART and the other public transit would be emphasized. Welllll that didn?t work. People bought tiny junky cars for a song (typically less than 2 -3 wks rent on one of the ?affordable? condos) so they could park more of them in less space and the local homeless wouldn?t bother breaking into them because anyone who would drive such a contraption couldn?t have anything valuable in the trunk. Now my friends who live nearby have all these old junky cars parked all over their neighborhood, belonging to the people who live in the condos. When the emphasis was on mass transit, the notion was to reduce traffic. A virus succeeded in reducing traffic, but now a lot of people have grown dependent on mass transit which is suddenly too dangerous to use. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 17:53:09 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 13:53:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, and they also just kicked pretty much the entire US press out of China. I wonder why... https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-bans-all-u-s-nationals-working-for-the-wall-street-journal-new-york-times-washington-post-whose-press-credentials-end-in-2020-11584464690 On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 1:13 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > I'd add that while I don't agree with John's assessment, I'd rather have a > problematic US government than a functioning Chinese Communist one that is > running slave labor camps and likely harvesting organs from unwilling > victims at a breathtaking pace. I also agree that John is NOT presenting > critical facts in the Chinese response. If they hadn't covered up > everything initially, the US might not even be in this situation right now. > > They're also currently running a propaganda campaign to extoll their > brilliant response to a crisis that they allege the US infected them with. > > > The sooner the West breaks the entire Chinese supply chain as much as > possible, the sooner we're all better off. Letting them into the WTO turns > out to be one of the worst decisions ever made. > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 1:06 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 09:33 John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> [...] China had a functioning federal government something the USA does >>> not have. >>> >> >> What the fuck lol, praise is not due. Especially since their culture of >> cover-ups, secrecy and silence is a huge part of why this virus spread in >> the first place. You may be presenting facts but you are omitting facts >> too. As you know, sometimes a partial model with omitted variable bias is >> worse than no model at all. Such is the case with your statement, I think. >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 18:07:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:07:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 1:18 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *John is NOT presenting critical facts in the Chinese response. If they > hadn't covered up everything initially, the US might not even be in this > situation right now.* > China should have closed down the Wuhan wildlife meat market long ago and in the early days of the epidemic the Chinese made trumpian level blunders, but unlike our dear leader they quickly learned from their mistakes; perhaps they took to heart what Richard Feynman said "*For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled*". They did cover up things at the start but I don't think that would have mattered as far as we're concerned, Trump bungled a 45 day warning and I think he would have bungled a 450 day warning too. *> I'd rather have a problematic US government than a functioning Chinese > Communist one that is running slave labor camps and likely harvesting > organs from unwilling victims at a breathtaking pace.* Hey I hate the Chinese government as much as you do but facts are facts and overall they handled the epidemic well, I mean... Xi Jinping is evil but at least he has the courtesy to be competent. Trump is only half the man Xi Jinping is. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 18:20:48 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:20:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] American hand sanitizer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's not moonshine, but one of the local distilleries here is actually giving away free hand sanitizer they've been producing during the outbreak with their branding on it. Pretty good idea! On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 2:00 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It has been pointed out that the key ingredient in hand sanitizer is > alcohol, and thus that anyone worried that America would run out, just > needs to look to the history of moonshine during Prohibition. > > If there are two manufacturing industries that will never be completely > offshored from the USA, they are guns and booze. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 18:25:38 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:25:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Speaking of admiring strong men...It's amazing where TDS can lead one! On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 2:23 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Trump is only half the man Xi Jinping is. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 18:49:40 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 13:49:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's a brilliant idea (of course). Why don't we start a web site such that the world leaders and all under them can ask us what to do? Clearly we have all the right answers and they don't. We are what the world needs. Oceans, not buckets, full of money, Spike (you aim too low) bill w On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 1:44 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Speaking of admiring strong men...It's amazing where TDS can lead one! > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 2:23 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Trump is only half the man Xi Jinping is. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 18:50:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 13:50:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] American hand sanitizer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All you need is rubbing alcohol and aloe vera juice. bill w On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 1:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It's not moonshine, but one of the local distilleries here is actually > giving away free hand sanitizer they've been producing during the outbreak > with their branding on it. Pretty good idea! > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 2:00 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It has been pointed out that the key ingredient in hand sanitizer is >> alcohol, and thus that anyone worried that America would run out, just >> needs to look to the history of moonshine during Prohibition. >> >> If there are two manufacturing industries that will never be completely >> offshored from the USA, they are guns and booze. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 18:57:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 13:57:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] how to be a tyrant Message-ID: A couple of years ago a book and the author were mentioned by someone and I cannot remember either. It was sort of how to have a revolution, such as getting ahold of the news outlets, and so forth. American author I think. Will someone help me remember that author and book? I gathered that most of you knew it. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 06:54:26 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 01:54:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> <00f501d5fbe5$00cfd240$026f76c0$@rainier66.com> <3DB2003E-8BDB-4867-87A2-433FFCF4D69D@gmail.com> Message-ID: If we?re closing everything, close the library too. Too many vulnerable populations (children, homeless, seniors) congregate there. You should check and see if your local library participates in eBook checkout provided via various websites and apps. You should be able to find something to read in that way. Besides that, you might be interested in a low-fee service like kindle unlimited. Failing that, Project Gutenberg and/or OpenStax Textbooks. A lot of the textbooks are actually quite good. I?m brushing up on algebra again before heading back up into pre-calculus again. The college algebra book is actually the best one I?ve ever used. Not all hope is lost! SR Ballard > On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Close everything but the library. Alas, they did not listen to me. Will have to buy books for how long? Can you imagine the criteria they will use to tell everyone to get out and support the economy, go back to work, to school, etc.? Look out for false positives in the decisions. bill w > >> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:34 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> Luxury! >>> >>> >>> >>> Our local CDC is urging everyone to shelter in place, restaurants to offer only take-out, non-essential businesses to suspend operation, schools to close, harlots to get dressed, the works. Life comes to a temporary stop. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >> >> Absolutely the same here. >> >> Two weeks is one thing. But it?s not looking like 2 weeks. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 19:25:04 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 12:25:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64D86B6B-3412-4C5E-BAA0-137C6547367A@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2020, at 12:13 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > ?If we?re closing everything, close the library too. Too many vulnerable populations (children, homeless, seniors) congregate there. I?m in Seattle and the public libraries have been closed since last week and will remain closed until at least the middle of April. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 19:28:41 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 12:28:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how to be a tyrant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2020, at 12:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? > > A couple of years ago a book and the author were mentioned by someone and I cannot remember either. > > It was sort of how to have a revolution, such as getting ahold of the news outlets, and so forth. American author I think. > > Will someone help me remember that author and book? I gathered that most of you knew it. Maybe _Coup d'?tat: A Practical Handbook_ by Edward Luttwak... But I don?t recall anyone mentioning that book in the last several years. I read it more than a decade ago. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 17 19:33:36 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 12:33:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how to be a tyrant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b901d5fc92$f44d5070$dce7f150$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 11:57 AM Subject: [ExI] how to be a tyrant A couple of years ago a book and the author were mentioned by someone and I cannot remember either. It was sort of how to have a revolution, such as getting ahold of the news outlets, and so forth. American author I think. Will someone help me remember that author and book? I gathered that most of you knew it. bill w Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 17 19:39:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 12:39:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> <00f501d5fbe5$00cfd240$026f76c0$@rainier66.com> <3DB2003E-8BDB-4867-87A2-433FFCF4D69D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00dc01d5fc93$b75f8420$261e8c60$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] perspective on covid On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Close everything but the library? >?If we?re closing everything, close the library too. Too many vulnerable populations (children, homeless, seniors) congregate there? That transition has already happened here. The homeless hang out in the library during the day and sleep on the chairs. The chairs got bed bugs. They fumigated the library, removed the carpet and swapped out for all plastic furniture. Now it is a lot noisier in there, but it has become too scary to hang out there anyway. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 19:42:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:42:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] how to be a tyrant In-Reply-To: <00b901d5fc92$f44d5070$dce7f150$@rainier66.com> References: <00b901d5fc92$f44d5070$dce7f150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That's the one - thanks bill w On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 2:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2020 11:57 AM > *Subject:* [ExI] how to be a tyrant > > > > A couple of years ago a book and the author were mentioned by someone and > I cannot remember either. > > > > It was sort of how to have a revolution, such as getting ahold of the news > outlets, and so forth. American author I think. > > > > Will someone help me remember that author and book? I gathered that most > of you knew it. > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 19:59:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:59:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] perspective on covid In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d5f4ce$150224c0$3f066e40$@rainier66.com> <00b801d5f4dd$5da87ad0$18f97070$@rainier66.com> <00e401d5f4e4$3c8cf810$b5a6e830$@rainier66.com> <005501d5f4ff$d2390e10$76ab2a30$@rainier66.com> <004101d5f54d$0d976450$28c62cf0$@rainier66.com> <003701d5f559$110607c0$33121740$@rainier66.com> <001701d5f560$38f9faf0$aaedf0d0$@rainier66.com> <003801d5f58c$c6297550$527c5ff0$@rainier66.com> <007901d5f59f$41dceb20$c596c160$@rainier66.com> <00b601d5f628$39782ec0$ac688c40$@rainier66.com> <71932028-6021-4BB1-9C2E-F1B0CBAECE6A@gmail.com> <00f501d5fbe5$00cfd240$026f76c0$@rainier66.com> <3DB2003E-8BDB-4867-87A2-433FFCF4D69D@gmail.com> Message-ID: re Ballard Thanks a lot. I know of those, but I'll probably re-read something out of the several hundred I still have left after donating most of mine to the library and local colleges. I really need the time for piano practice too. bill w On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 2:13 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If we?re closing everything, close the library too. Too many vulnerable > populations (children, homeless, seniors) congregate there. > > You should check and see if your local library participates in eBook > checkout provided via various websites and apps. You should be able to find > something to read in that way. > > Besides that, you might be interested in a low-fee service like kindle > unlimited. > > Failing that, Project Gutenberg and/or OpenStax Textbooks. A lot of the > textbooks are actually quite good. I?m brushing up on algebra again before > heading back up into pre-calculus again. The college algebra book is > actually the best one I?ve ever used. > > Not all hope is lost! > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Close everything but the library. Alas, they did not listen to me. Will > have to buy books for how long? Can you imagine the criteria they will use > to tell everyone to get out and support the economy, go back to work, to > school, etc.? Look out for false positives in the decisions. bill w > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:34 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Luxury! >> >> >> >> Our local CDC is urging everyone to shelter in place, restaurants to >> offer only take-out, non-essential businesses to suspend operation, schools >> to close, harlots to get dressed, the works. Life comes to a temporary >> stop. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> Absolutely the same here. >> >> Two weeks is one thing. But it?s not looking like 2 weeks. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 20:02:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 16:02:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The world is shutting down Message-ID: The European Space Agency?s Sentinel-5P satellite that monitors air pollution from industrial activity gives a vivid picture of how countries in Asia and Europe are shutting down due to the virus. I don't think there has ever been anything like this before. Coronavirus shuts down countries around the world John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 20:14:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 15:14:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Respirators and ventilators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Someone said, ?The president said states should figure out the respirator issue out themselves. That?s despicable.? Someone else said, ?Don?t blame the president, there?s nothing he can do.? The Facts: 3M boosts respirator production (Feb 28) https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/02/28/3m-ramps-up-n95-respirator-production-amid-global-coronavirus-outbreak.html Jack Ma, Chinese Billionaire to donate masks and tests (Mar 13) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/jack-ma-pledges-to-ship-coronavirus-tests-masks-to-us-2020-3%3famp HHS: Stockpile not big enough to fill gaps (Mar 16) https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/16/politics/top-health-officials-stockpiled-equipment/index.html Pence: Construction companies should donate n95 masks to hospitals (mar 17) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/pence-asks-constructions-companies-to-donate-n95-industrial-masks-to-local-hospitals.amp Pentagon: Giving masks and ventilators to HHS (Mar 17) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/medical/amp/Esper-Pentagon-will-provide-respirators-15138075.php That?s slightly more than nothing, on both sides. > On Mar 17, 2020, at 11:34 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 11:23 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> >>Then get more manufacturing facilities. If during WWII Ford was flexible enough to switch from making cars to making B-24 bombers in a matter of months >> >> > The B-24 was made by Consolidated, an aircraft company founded in the early 1920s. It was based on designs from before the US entered the war. > > And designs for respirators existed long before the start of this pandemic. > >> > Also, there was a lead time before US entry into the war where US manufacturers of war stuff were supplying the UK and France > > They started to convert Ford's Willow Run plant to make B-24s in October 1941, it took about a year before B-24s were coming off the assembly line but B-24s are a lot more complex than respirators especially in 1941 when a B24 was a very high tech thing. I can't think of anything more high tech that was mass produced in 1941 than a B24. > >> >Look at the history of US torpedos as an example. > > That was not a problem cause by the massive acceleration of production but by a lack of testing and a fundamental error in design, several of them in fact; a flaw in the magnetic detonator, a flaw in the contact detonator, and a flaw in the depth gage that made them run 10 feet deeper than what they were set to do. The gyro-compass was also unreliable but that is a problem all torpedos of the period had to some degree or another, except for the Japanese, they had by far the best torpedo in the war, the US had by far the worst. > >> >The Sherman tank was likewise designed and prototypes before US entry into the war. > > Forget prototypes we already have respirators that are the real deal, just not enough of them. > >> > Much waste and idiocy happened during WW2 particularly because of federal oversight. > > Yes, but no process is completely efficient and no doubt there will be lots of waste and idiocy in the mass manufacture of respirators too especially when you try to do it so fast, but despite it all they got the job done in WW2 so I don't see why we can't do the same today. Well no that's not true I do see why we can't do the same today and its name is Donald Trump. > >> > workers could be easily shifted over to manufacturing because of chronic unemployment then (unlike now) > > That may have been true a few weeks ago, but not now. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 20:46:59 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 16:46:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:12 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Because the fundamentals of the economy haven't gone anywhere, > What if you believe the economy is fundamentally broken? dollar-cost averaging is a wonderful, wonderful thing, > Dollar-cost averaging is nothing but good marketing. It's paying too much for stocks when the market is high and "getting a deal" when it's down. If the market is high most of the time, you're getting ripped off. and the upward market correction when the investor panic blows over is > gonna look like an elevator! > The market is always at the whim of irrational and easily spooked investors. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 20:50:45 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 13:50:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The world is shutting down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01E794E8-F607-49BB-BF82-A2D3D172B43B@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2020, at 1:13 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > The European Space Agency?s Sentinel-5P satellite that monitors air pollution from industrial activity gives a vivid picture of how countries in Asia and Europe are shutting down due to the virus. I don't think there has ever been anything like this before. > > Coronavirus shuts down countries around the world > > John K Clark After the 02001 attacks, there were several days of no commercial flights over the US. This provided data on how commercial aviation impacts the atmosphere. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 20:53:10 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 16:53:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <008201d5fad4$b4c33380$1e499a80$@rainier66.com> <013601d5fae8$f1395240$d3abf6c0$@rainier66.com> <020701d5fb0a$7b9a4450$72ceccf0$@rainier66.com> <002401d5fb2a$3df0d810$b9d28830$@rainier66.com> <005e01d5fba9$e00c1270$a0243750$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fbca$dfc9af40$9f5d0dc0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d5fbdd$1576f780$4064e680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 7:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Question for all: by what criteria do you decide a news outlet is > unbiased? > No source of information is unbiased. You need ask yourself what the source's bias is, as you're reading it. Consume information from a range of differently-biased sources: local gov't, mass media, academia, NGOs, other gov'ts. Where they agree and where they differ will likely highlight their biases. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 21:00:39 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:00:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 12:37 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 1:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **No one wants John banned. * > > > > On October 12 2018 at 5:30 PM a thread was started by Adrian Tymes < > atymes at gmail.com> entitled "Spike, please ban John Clark IMMEDIATELY". > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > > > That was then. Now is now. > > > > Open season for a day please. All the usual societal guidelines for > propriety are temporarily set aside. > And here I missed that day, being busy preparing for the 3-week (so far) lockdown that started today. Oh, well. Perhaps for the best. As the one John cites there, I confirm Spike's statement: things have changed between then and now - marginally, but enough that I am no longer asking for that ban at this time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 17 21:50:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:50:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat John K Clark That was then. Now is now. Open season for a day please. All the usual societal guidelines for propriety are temporarily set aside. >?And here I missed that day, being busy preparing for the 3-week (so far) lockdown that started today. >?Oh, well. Perhaps for the best. As the one John cites there, I confirm Spike's statement: things have changed between then and now - marginally, but enough that I am no longer asking for that ban at this time. We have all changed, perhaps for the better. Now we have John openly campaigning for communism, yet no one takes it seriously. I feel free to openly campaign for capitalism. Reasoning: there is no point in being a capitalist if one refuses to capitalize. China is getting hammered by this virus. The US is doing better than its counterparts. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 22:33:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 18:33:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 5:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Now we have John openly campaigning for communism* Spike, be honest, do you really think that id a true statement? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 22:43:47 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 18:43:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 2:16 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Oh, and they also just kicked pretty much the entire US press out of > China. I wonder why...* > It was retaliation, 2 weeks ago Trump told a bunch of Chinese reporters in the US to leave. And no I'm not advocating communism, I'm just stating what happened. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 17 23:26:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 16:26:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 5:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Now we have John openly campaigning for communism Spike, be honest, do you really think that id a true statement? John K Clark John, we saw one of the major candidates ruin his campaign by saying a few generous words about Fidel Castro. The party people let him know that those few words would cost him Florida by 50 points. It has been a long time ago, but the Cubans and many Floridians still remember. Without Florida, the cliff to victory is steep indeed, and unlikely. In California, any charitable word about Chinese communism, Vietnamese communism, or any other brand of communism in a state generally open to socialism would be enough to cause that candidate to lose that state. Communism is reviled. It is a murderous philosophy. Any commentary elevating any part of communism ahead of freedom is revolting. Whether or not that is really what you meant to do, it came across as analogous to that candidate who pointed out that everything Fidel Castro did was not necessary bad. He was good for education, for instance, particularly the ?re? variety. North Vietnam was also good at that ?re? version of ?education.? Communism is evil. Trump is of the party you don?t like. Two different things. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 23:48:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 18:48:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think Sanders is toast now, but to me it is most amazing that he got this far with the word 'socialism' in his philosophy. bill w On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 6:28 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 5:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **Now we have John openly campaigning for communism* > > > > Spike, be honest, do you really think that id a true statement? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > John, we saw one of the major candidates ruin his campaign by saying a few > generous words about Fidel Castro. The party people let him know that > those few words would cost him Florida by 50 points. It has been a long > time ago, but the Cubans and many Floridians still remember. Without > Florida, the cliff to victory is steep indeed, and unlikely. > > > > In California, any charitable word about Chinese communism, Vietnamese > communism, or any other brand of communism in a state generally open to > socialism would be enough to cause that candidate to lose that state. > Communism is reviled. It is a murderous philosophy. Any commentary > elevating any part of communism ahead of freedom is revolting. > > > > Whether or not that is really what you meant to do, it came across as > analogous to that candidate who pointed out that everything Fidel Castro > did was not necessary bad. He was good for education, for instance, > particularly the ?re? variety. North Vietnam was also good at that ?re? > version of ?education.? > > > > Communism is evil. Trump is of the party you don?t like. Two different > things. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 23:48:47 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 17:48:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >... Trump is of the party you don?t like. Oh, Trump is /*FAR*/ worse than being of the party Democrats don't like. He's of the /social class/ they don't like. That's the unforgivable part. On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 5:28 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 5:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **Now we have John openly campaigning for communism* > > > > Spike, be honest, do you really think that id a true statement? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > John, we saw one of the major candidates ruin his campaign by saying a few > generous words about Fidel Castro. The party people let him know that > those few words would cost him Florida by 50 points. It has been a long > time ago, but the Cubans and many Floridians still remember. Without > Florida, the cliff to victory is steep indeed, and unlikely. > > > > In California, any charitable word about Chinese communism, Vietnamese > communism, or any other brand of communism in a state generally open to > socialism would be enough to cause that candidate to lose that state. > Communism is reviled. It is a murderous philosophy. Any commentary > elevating any part of communism ahead of freedom is revolting. > > > > Whether or not that is really what you meant to do, it came across as > analogous to that candidate who pointed out that everything Fidel Castro > did was not necessary bad. He was good for education, for instance, > particularly the ?re? variety. North Vietnam was also good at that ?re? > version of ?education.? > > > > Communism is evil. Trump is of the party you don?t like. Two different > things. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 00:41:14 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 20:41:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not that it really matters, but the Trump move was retaliation against China FIRST kicking out WSJ journalists because they didn't like a sick man of Asia headline. I'm not sure if you've been following, but China has been waging a propaganda war to blame the US for STARTING the virus in Wuhan and trumpeting what a great job they did and blaming the West for reinfecting them with what they spread in the first place. On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 6:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 2:16 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Oh, and they also just kicked pretty much the entire US press out of >> China. I wonder why...* >> > > It was retaliation, 2 weeks ago Trump told a bunch of Chinese reporters in > the US to leave. And no I'm not advocating communism, I'm just stating what > happened. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 04:01:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 21:01:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c601d5fcd9$de462760$9ad27620$@rainier66.com> Subject: Re: [ExI] One small spark of good news I have plenty of reason for hope. The online learning program at my son?s school is rolling out more smoothly than I had anticipated. They gave out ChromeBooks to those who didn?t already have them, and most of the teachers have the assignments outlined and working. Also as I had anticipated, this online structure causes the academically rich to get richer and the poor to get nothing. We heard from two of my son?s scout friends, neither of whom have lifted a finger after two full days of online instruction. My son is tearing thru his math assignments like a hot chainsaw thru butter but doing little outside his favorite area. Being out of class appears to be a license to do nothing or go as fast as one wishes. The shelter-in-place is working, the work from home notion may be kinda working for some. Our society has had the technology to do all this for some time. Some are already doing it, but in general we have used the technology kinda half-assed in my view. Perhaps this pandemic will drag us kicking and screaming into the 21st century. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 06:58:31 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 02:58:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 7:59 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >... Trump is of the party you don?t like. > > Oh, Trump is /*FAR*/ worse than being of the party Democrats don't like. > > He's of the /social class/ they don't like. > > That's the unforgivable part. > ### Well, that's an interesting question. They spewed vitriol at Bush and made the milquetoast RINO Romney into an almost-Hitler but the amount of insane hatred directed at Trump is on another level. Yet Trump is still of the same social class as them - rich, smart, clearly belongs to the social circle that includes the Clintons, Epsteins and other Democrat celebrities, as shown on thousands of photos taken when he was just a TV performer. When speaking among the elite he sounds just like them - ironic, sophisticated, no trace of blue-collar in his voice. I think their hatred has something to do with the allies he chose for his election and the respect he has shown them - he appealed to non-elite Americans, the commoners, and he addressed their concerns on their own terms, using their own language. He did not use the shibboleths of the people who aspire to join the tribe of power, the state, the rich and the academia. Elite aspirants like to show contempt for commoners as a way of separating themselves from the deplorable masses and the dog-faced pony soldiers. He did not do it, and that puts him beyond the pale. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 07:29:07 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 03:29:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 2:24 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Hey I hate the Chinese government as much as you do but facts are facts > and overall they handled the epidemic well, I mean... Xi Jinping is evil > but at least he has the courtesy to be competent. > ### And he makes trains run on time! This sounds like an old joke but it actually is based on real life - my grandmother used to say, quite seriously and unironically, that trains ran on time under Hitler. John, you are just like my grandmother. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Wed Mar 18 10:23:08 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 05:23:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus Message-ID: The Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus and is now spreading on-line. Later this morning the government will order everyone to stay off the Internet. From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 12:01:10 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 08:01:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:31 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Hey I hate the Chinese government as much as you do but facts are facts >> and overall they handled the epidemic well, I mean... Xi Jinping is evil >> but at least he has the courtesy to be competent. >> > > > ### And he makes trains run on time! > And Mussolini did in fact make the trains run on time. Stating that reality does not make me a Mussolini fan and denying that fact does not make one a champion of truth justice and the American way. Reality must take precedence over public relations because nature can not be fooled. *> John, you are just like my grandmother.* > Then your grandmother was fond of saying things that were true. I said Xi Jinping was evil and had competence and that was true. I said Donald Trump was evil and had no competence and that was true. I said Donald Trump was half the man Xi Jinping was and that was true too because one is half of two. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 14:43:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 07:43:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] One small spark of good news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013d01d5fd33$908b5ef0$b1a21cd0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >> John, you are just like my grandmother. >?Then your grandmother was fond of saying things that were true. I said Xi Jinping was evil and had competence and that was true. I said Donald Trump was evil and had no competence and that was true. I said Donald Trump was half the man Xi Jinping was and that was true too because one is half of two. John K Clark John, can anyone?s opinion be defined as fact, or only yours? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 15:42:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:42:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 7:28 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Spike, be honest, do you really think that is a true statement? > > > > *> John, we saw one of the major candidates ruin his campaign by saying a > few generous words about Fidel Castro. The party people let him know that > those few words would cost him Florida by 50 points.* > First, I am NOT a Bernie Sanders fan. Second, I'm not running for political office, if I was I'd never dream of actually saying what I think. Third, I had thought the members of this list would take a slightly more nuanced view of things than Jos? Sixpack in Florida would. Was I wrong? And I'd still like to know if you really thought I was advocating communism. *> In California, any charitable word about Chinese communism, Vietnamese > communism, or any other brand of communism in a state generally open to > socialism would be enough to cause that candidate to lose that state. * > Earlier you said we shouldn't talk about Trump because there are a lot of international members on the list so they wouldn't be interested in anything as parochial as what the leader of the most powerful nation in the world is doing, but now even that is not enough, now everybody in the world is supposed to self censor themselves so the delicate sensibilities of the people in one state in the USA never get offended. Is that what you're saying? I'll tell you what I'm say, I say nobody ever died by being offended. > *>Communism is reviled. * > And for very *VERY* good reason. * > It is a murderous philosophy. * > Absolutely. > * > Any commentary elevating any part of communism ahead of freedom is > revolting. * > So we should deny reality and pretend that the education and health standards in Cuba didn't improve under Castro? *>Whether or not that is really what you meant to do, it came across as > analogous to that candidate who pointed out that everything Fidel Castro > did was not necessary bad. He was good for education* And Fidel Castro WAS good for education, the literacy rate went way up, And Fidel Castro WAS good for the health of his people, the life expectancy went way up. And NOBODY hates Fidel Castro more than me! I've said more than once on this very list that in its entire half million year history no Homo Sapien every came closer to causing the extinction of the entire human species than Fidel Castro did in 1962; I was twelve back then and I remember wondering if I'd still be alive in 24 hours. I'm also on record in saying that judging from the fact that millions of people moved from Cuba to Florida after Castro took over but virtually nobody went in the other direction means that despite the improvements in some areas the net level of happiness of Cubans must have declined. And there are well documented occasions where Adolf Hitler showed kindness toward puppies, but saying that doesn't make me a Natzie. > > Communism is evil. > Certainly. > > *Trump is of the party you don?t like. * > Yes. * > Two different things.* > Are they? Well yes in a way, certainly not all but some Communist leaders were competent, Trump is not, but if Trump is given a free hand I have little doubt he'd be as tyrannical as the worst of them. Incidentally, even though it doesn't have noticeably more cases of COVID-19 than other states a few days ago the Republican Governor of Ohio decided to delay yesterday's election. The Governor's decision was challenged in the courts. The Governor lost in the courts. The election was delayed anyway. The Govenor says the new election date will "*possibly*" be on June 2. And by then the epidemic will likely be worse than it is now. In 1864 some people urged the President to delay the November election because half the nation wanted to kill the other half but he refused, however back then the President was Abraham Lincoln, now it's Donald Trump. Hard to believe they're both Republicans. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 16:01:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 12:01:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 7:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think Sanders is toast now, > Me too. > > but to me it is most amazing that he got this far > I'm just surprised (and pleased) he didn't win. And if something isn't done about the huge gap between rich and poor that is not just growing but accelerating then we're heading for a Big Rip and can expect to find leftists even crazier than Bernie Sanders make it to the national stage, we already have plenty of right wing crazies in prominent positions of power. And if this epidemic gets really bad it will make politics even more radical. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 16:15:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:15:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If Trump manages to give poor people most of the trillion dollars he wants to give to people affected by the virus (meaning out of work and no sick pay etc.), he will in effect be buying votes. bill w On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 11:03 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 7:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I think Sanders is toast now, >> > > Me too. > > >> > but to me it is most amazing that he got this far >> > > I'm just surprised (and pleased) he didn't win. And if something isn't > done about the huge gap between rich and poor that is not just growing but > accelerating then we're heading for a Big Rip and can expect to find > leftists even crazier than Bernie Sanders make it to the national stage, we > already have plenty of right wing crazies in prominent positions of power. > And if this epidemic gets really bad it will make politics even more > radical. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 16:25:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 12:25:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:01 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Trump is still of the same social class as them - rich, smart, Speaking of being smart, when on Jan 22 Trump was asked if he was worried about a pandemic and he said "*No, not at all. We have it totally under control. It?s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It?s going to be just fine*", did you believe him? On Feb 26 when Trump said "*We?re going to be pretty soon at only five people. And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. So we?ve had very good luck*" did you believe him? On March 7 when Trump was asked if he was concerned the virus would hit Washington DC he said "*No, I?m not concerned at all. No, I?m not. No, we?ve done a great job*" did you believe him? And just yesterday when Trump said "*This is a pandemic, I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic*" did you believe him? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 16:31:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:31:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?but some Communist leaders were competent, Trump is not, but if Trump is given a free hand I have little doubt he'd be as tyrannical as the worst of them? That comment makes me ever more thankful of the US constitution. Not only does POTUS not have a free hand, POTUS cannot legally be given a free hand. To give POTUS a free hand would violate the COTUS, which is what gives POTUS any hand at all. >? a few days ago the Republican Governor of Ohio decided to delay yesterday's election. The Governor's decision was challenged in the courts. The Governor lost in the courts. The election was delayed anyway. The Govenor says the new election date will "possibly" be on June 2. And by then the epidemic will likely be worse than it is now? States run primaries. Either party could have opted to ignore the governor?s order and held their primaries anyway. The party has the legal authority to ignore its own voters and assign their delegates to whomever they wish. The primaries are just a kind of formalized poll to advise the party bosses. This is true in every political party. POTUS does not have any authority on the date of the November election. This was by design, which is why an election has never been delayed by the Fed: they would if they could. The authors of the COTUS foresaw that and set the Supreme Court in charge of who they swear in come January 20, 2021. >?In 1864 some people urged the President to delay the November election? No doubt he would have done that had he the power. >?because half the nation wanted to kill the other half but he refused? He didn?t refuse. He didn?t have the authority, even in time of civil war, to delay that election. >?however back then the President was Abraham Lincoln, now it's Donald Trump? John K Clark Neither have any authority over federal elections. This is a feature, not a bug. If our legal system can legally be abused in any way, it will be. So, the framers made sure that power was not within legal grasp of that office, along with the power to hold the office by any means after the next guy is sworn in by the Supreme Court. John do let me assure you, we have had power-grabbers in the office of POTUS before. Andrew Jackson for instance, Franklin Roosevelt for instance. All the modern ones. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 16:57:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:57:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002b01d5fd46$45c23070$d1469150$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Third, I had thought the members of this list would take a slightly more nuanced view of things than Jos? Sixpack in Florida would. Was I wrong? You promote nuance while labeling those not you as Jose Sixpack. Do you not see internal tension in that sentence please? >?And I'd still like to know if you really thought I was advocating communism? John K Clark In a nuanced way only. It comes across that way, whenever one says anything positive about reviled leaders such as Castro, Hitler, Mussolini, Xi, any of the commies or Nazis. >?Earlier you said we shouldn't talk about Trump because there are a lot of international members on the list so they wouldn't be interested in anything as parochial as what the leader of the most powerful nation in the world is doing? The US is not the most powerful nation in the world. It was back when power was measured by the number of nuclear warheads. But that doesn?t matter much now. POTUS is not the most powerful person in the nation either. Those who own the money to make things happen are more powerful. As the US government battles itself and slips every farther in debt, the power of that office wanes ever more: the number of options continues to decline. I see no stopping that trend: the Federal government has demonstrated itself incapable of balancing its own budget. Meanwhile, the price of everything, oil, gold, even real estate, declines simultaneously, which is to say the US dollar is going up in value. So the guy with the power is whoever is holding the greatest number of dollars. OK, so who is that? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 17:39:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 13:39:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 12:37 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *Not only does POTUS not have a free hand, POTUS cannot legally be > given a free hand.* I know perfectly well it would be illegal for Trump to delay the election, that doesn't mean it won't happen. Human laws are not like the laws of physics, they can be broken. > > *To give POTUS a free hand would violate the COTUS,* > Yeah it certainly would. > *> POTUS does not have any authority on the date of the November > election. * > To paraphrase Mao Zedong, authority comes from the barrel of a gun. And before you ask the answer is no, I am not a fan of Mao Zedong. >>?In 1864 some people urged the President to delay the November election? > > > *> No doubt he would have done that had he the power.* > Lincoln had the power to delay the election but he didn't have the will to do so. And history has looked at his decision with affection. *> He didn?t refuse. He didn?t have the authority, even in time of civil > war, to delay that election.* > Lincoln didn't have the authority to issue the Emancipation Proclamation freeing the slaves either, it was blatantly unconstitutional, but he had both the will and the power to do so. And history has looked at his decision with affection. If Trump delays the November 3 election history will not be as kind. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 18:04:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 13:04:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] language Message-ID: I would like to put in a request for everyone to stop and think before they call someone a communist, or a braindead idiot, like I was (with no apology), or just anything pejorative that applies to the person, not to his or her opinion. To do so is to commit ad hominem arguments, which is beneath all of us. I hope. We tell kids that they can express themselves without calling names. Maybe we ought to avow that expectation ourselves, as presumably mature adults. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 18:12:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:12:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > POTUS does not have any authority on the date of the November election. To paraphrase Mao Zedong, authority comes from the barrel of a gun. And before you ask the answer is no, I am not a fan of Mao Zedong? John K Clark And that my international friends is why the USA has a second amendment. The system was set up so that US citizens can protect ourselves from our own government if necessary, and may it never be so. The system has that as a feature, not a bug. John to promote your own political opinions to the status of fact is perhaps the pinnacle of arrogance. As I wrote those words, the obvious question occurred to me: how can we know that setting one?s own political opinion to fact is the real pinnacle of arrogance? To know that for sure, we need some kind of arrogance contest or competition. If I secretly believe I am arroganter than thou, we need to play an arrogance match, mano a mano, and show everyone who is the real world champion of arrogance. John I will confess you are a formidable opponent in that field. Acknowledging you as a formidable opponent reduces my own arrogance, which gives you an advantage, making you still more formidable, but of course you may be thinking the same of me, handing back the advantage. So it isn?t clear. Until we hold the world arrogantness playoff, we can?t know for sure. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 18:26:08 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 13:26:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <9F4A62C3-D971-4277-8C6A-A0EEB7DB460B@gmail.com> Re: Delaying elections Is there actually a reason he can?t delay the elections, due to public health concerns? Many states are pushing back primaries. November will be flu season Redux. Mail in ballots only? I?m not saying we should delay them. But what are the options here, if people are locked down again? SR Ballard > On Mar 18, 2020, at 1:12 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > POTUS does not have any authority on the date of the November election. > > To paraphrase Mao Zedong, authority comes from the barrel of a gun. And before you ask the answer is no, I am not a fan of Mao Zedong? John K Clark > > > And that my international friends is why the USA has a second amendment. The system was set up so that US citizens can protect ourselves from our own government if necessary, and may it never be so. The system has that as a feature, not a bug. > > John to promote your own political opinions to the status of fact is perhaps the pinnacle of arrogance. > > As I wrote those words, the obvious question occurred to me: how can we know that setting one?s own political opinion to fact is the real pinnacle of arrogance? To know that for sure, we need some kind of arrogance contest or competition. If I secretly believe I am arroganter than thou, we need to play an arrogance match, mano a mano, and show everyone who is the real world champion of arrogance. > > John I will confess you are a formidable opponent in that field. Acknowledging you as a formidable opponent reduces my own arrogance, which gives you an advantage, making you still more formidable, but of course you may be thinking the same of me, handing back the advantage. So it isn?t clear. Until we hold the world arrogantness playoff, we can?t know for sure. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 18:40:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:40:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <9F4A62C3-D971-4277-8C6A-A0EEB7DB460B@gmail.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <9F4A62C3-D971-4277-8C6A-A0EEB7DB460B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003c01d5fd54$bf2e7230$3d8b5690$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 11:26 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: SR Ballard Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong Re: Delaying elections Is there actually a reason he can?t delay the elections, due to public health concerns? Many states are pushing back primaries. November will be flu season Redux. Mail in ballots only? I?m not saying we should delay them. But what are the options here, if people are locked down again? SR Ballard Sure they can. Mail-in ballots only would be a great way to go. States which delay their elections have no representation in the electoral college, which will go on, rain or shine. States control their elections, design their own ballots and so forth. No one is stopping them from delaying their elections. But they still need to submit delegates to the EC, for the Supreme Court will not wait for them. They will swear in whoever they believe won that EC vote on 20 January, regardless of what states did what and when. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 18:44:21 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:44:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 1:40 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Lincoln didn't have the authority to issue the Emancipation Proclamation > freeing the slaves either, it was blatantly unconstitutional, but he had > both the will and the power to do so. And history has looked at his > decision with affection. If Trump delays the November 3 election history > will not be as kind. > > > Why do you think as an executive order it was unconstitutional? Is there anything in the Constitution pre-13th amendment that guaranteed the right to own slaves? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 19:37:12 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 12:37:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Who on this list do you think would believe that? We know the difference between biological and computer viruses. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:25 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus and is now > spreading on-line. Later this morning the government will > order everyone to stay off the Internet. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 19:46:23 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 12:46:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mussolini and the trains Message-ID: <53A8DE30-93D8-402A-A0C3-D0C7087347F2@gmail.com> As always, having not much time to keep up or participate in the discussion here, but some have brought up the old saw about Mussolini getting the trains to run on time. This is actually not true. I first read about it not being so in Dav?d Hackett Fischer?s wonderful book _Historians? Fallacies: Toward a Logic of Historical Thought_, but here?s the Snopes entry on this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/ No doubt, this particular falsehood will live on, but let?s try to stop it in this venue. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 19:49:00 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:49:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Come on Adrian, it was evidently a joke. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Who on this list do you think would believe that? > > We know the difference between biological and computer viruses. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:25 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus and is now >> spreading on-line. Later this morning the government will >> order everyone to stay off the Internet. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 19:53:11 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 15:53:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pretty sure that was intended as a joke to lighten the mood. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:38 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Who on this list do you think would believe that? > > We know the difference between biological and computer viruses. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:25 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus and is now >> spreading on-line. Later this morning the government will >> order everyone to stay off the Internet. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 19:56:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:56:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: adrian wrote - Who on this list do you think would believe that? We know the difference between biological and computer viruses. Maybe no one, but it produces a story: my father-in-law Mr. Fraley, was an arch man, fond of practical jokes and such. One day he went to work and covered all the phones in the office. When asked what he was doing, he said that the telephone company was going to blow out the lines and he wanted to protect the desks from all the dust and stuff. No, I don't know who believed it but the sheets were not removed until the manager showed up and looked around and said "Fraley!!" bill w On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 2:39 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Who on this list do you think would believe that? > > We know the difference between biological and computer viruses. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:25 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus and is now >> spreading on-line. Later this morning the government will >> order everyone to stay off the Internet. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 19:57:49 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 12:57:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Poe's Law, and I do know people who really would try to troll like this. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 12:54 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Come on Adrian, it was evidently a joke. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Who on this list do you think would believe that? >> >> We know the difference between biological and computer viruses. >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:25 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> The Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus and is now >>> spreading on-line. Later this morning the government will >>> order everyone to stay off the Internet. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 20:18:09 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:18:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 2:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>>> **POTUS does not have any authority on the date of the November >> election. * > > > > >> To paraphrase Mao Zedong, authority comes from the barrel of a gun. >> And before you ask the answer is no, I am not a fan of Mao Zedong? John >> K Clark > > > > *> And that my international friends is why the USA has a second > amendment. The system was set up so that US citizens can protect ourselves > from our own government if necessary,* > I think that's a bogus argument for the second amendment, a bunch of silly rednecks with their little hunting rifles would be comically outmatched by what the Commander In Chief would have on his side, things like Abrams M1 battle tanks and helicopter gunships. And besides, most gun nuts are Trump fanatics too so they'd be of no help in defending the constitution. Even before this epidemic I thought our Republic was entering a very dangerous time, but now with COVID-19 almost certain to further radicalize political activity I just don't know if the constitution can survive. I sure hope not but I'm afraid the nation could be unrecognizable a year from now. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 20:29:39 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:29:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I would NEVER wish for a civil war, but I think you're underestimating the power of asymmetric warfare in that situation. Gun owners are hardly a bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting rifles. Many of them are as well armed as a typical infantry soldier in terms of weaponry. If the will was there to defend/revolt, it would not be an easy fight without resorting to bombing large swathes of the US. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:23 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 2:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> *>>> **POTUS does not have any authority on the date of the November >>> election. * >> >> >> >> >> To paraphrase Mao Zedong, authority comes from the barrel of a gun. >>> And before you ask the answer is no, I am not a fan of Mao Zedong? John >>> K Clark >> >> >> >> *> And that my international friends is why the USA has a second >> amendment. The system was set up so that US citizens can protect ourselves >> from our own government if necessary,* >> > > I think that's a bogus argument for the second amendment, a bunch of silly > rednecks with their little hunting rifles would be comically outmatched by > what the Commander In Chief would have on his side, things like Abrams M1 > battle tanks and helicopter gunships. And besides, most gun nuts are Trump > fanatics too so they'd be of no help in defending the constitution. > > Even before this epidemic I thought our Republic was entering a very > dangerous time, but now with COVID-19 almost certain to further radicalize > political activity I just don't know if the constitution can survive. I > sure hope not but I'm afraid the nation could be unrecognizable a year from > now. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 20:40:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 15:40:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are simply some things that it doesn't matter whether they are true or false. They are understood. Plenty of things in fiction are as true as anything else, including history, much of which is fiction anyway. Mussolini or Hitler? Who cares? What could be more harmless unless you are picky picky picky and a grind with little sense of humor or play. bill w On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:16 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Poe's Law, and I do know people who really would try to troll like this. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 12:54 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Come on Adrian, it was evidently a joke. >> >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 8:38 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Who on this list do you think would believe that? >>> >>> We know the difference between biological and computer viruses. >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:25 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> The Coronavirus has mutated into a computer virus and is now >>>> spreading on-line. Later this morning the government will >>>> order everyone to stay off the Internet. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 20:44:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 15:44:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, as Spike might suggest, this could be a bit of fun. Everyone would wear a sign telling what party he is in, what his views on abortion and porn are, and so on, done with colors and emoticons. Then everyone would wear guns and have showdowns on the street, perhaps between rival gangs of radicals (though it is getting increasingly hard to tell who is a radical). bill w On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 3:32 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I would NEVER wish for a civil war, but I think you're underestimating the > power of asymmetric warfare in that situation. Gun owners are hardly a > bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting rifles. Many of them are as > well armed as a typical infantry soldier in terms of weaponry. If the will > was there to defend/revolt, it would not be an easy fight without resorting > to bombing large swathes of the US. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:23 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 2:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> *>>> **POTUS does not have any authority on the date of the November >>>> election. * >>> >>> >>> >>> >> To paraphrase Mao Zedong, authority comes from the barrel of a gun. >>>> And before you ask the answer is no, I am not a fan of Mao Zedong? John >>>> K Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> *> And that my international friends is why the USA has a second >>> amendment. The system was set up so that US citizens can protect ourselves >>> from our own government if necessary,* >>> >> >> I think that's a bogus argument for the second amendment, a bunch of >> silly rednecks with their little hunting rifles would be comically >> outmatched by what the Commander In Chief would have on his side, things >> like Abrams M1 battle tanks and helicopter gunships. And besides, most gun >> nuts are Trump fanatics too so they'd be of no help in defending the >> constitution. >> >> Even before this epidemic I thought our Republic was entering a very >> dangerous time, but now with COVID-19 almost certain to further radicalize >> political activity I just don't know if the constitution can survive. I >> sure hope not but I'm afraid the nation could be unrecognizable a year from >> now. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 20:50:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 13:50:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] trains on time, was: RE: Mussolini and the trains Message-ID: <00f901d5fd66$ed308850$c79198f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat >?the old saw about Mussolini getting the trains to run on time. ? https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/ >?Regards, Dan Had it been so, it would still be a bad thing: punctual trains would cause more of the population to become dependent upon them, which would result in Italy being more vulnerable to covid. Oh wait? The USA, anticipating such emergencies, intentionally built a lot of roads rather than rails, gently coaxing the masses to rely upon their own cars rather than ever-more hazardous public transit. Speaking of trains running on time, I am told that the local BART does run mostly on time, except for a periodic phenomenon that happens about as often as the moon waxes full: trains have become the weapon of choice for proles to end their misery. No I don?t mean intentionally sitting next to the guy having a coughing fit. Perhaps as an unintentional consequence of stricter access to firearms and the construction of safety fence on freeway overpasses and bridges, the method of choice now is to go out by the tracks, gulp the last swig of rotgut, step in the path of the speeding train, adios cruel world. Instant demise is perfectly assured, and as painless as these things can be, it works for those terrified of heights, likely far less suffering than the medical condition threatening to end the trackwalkers existence soon. When the train strikes a prole, it is obligated to stop so that the authorities may find the remains and attempt an identification. This of course delays hundreds of commuters into that pristine city of San Francisco, meaning the trains don?t always run on time, even if in perfect repair and run in a perfectly orderly way. I would counter suggest we use the current opportunity to develop better ways to do our work and our lives with fewer trips and less office time. We can do it. We are doing it, in education, right now. I am sitting in my own home as my son does his schoolwork in front of his monitor. No danger. No virus. No being pushed into classrooms with murderous miscreants. Better instruction (we tiptoe around that part of it (but it is difficult to deny that Sal Khan is a far superior instructor compared to the school staff.)) In all this, I am not suggesting I have an answer to suicidal trackwalkers, but rather that we have the technology to reduce the number of necessary trains and cars, if we use the technology we have. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 20:58:45 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:58:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:33 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Gun owners are hardly a bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting > rifles. Many of them are as well armed as a typical infantry soldier in > terms of weaponry.* And how many of those playtime civilian well armed infantry soldiers are NOT fans of Donald Trump? How many would be upset if Trump delayed the election indefinitely, especially if it looked like a Democrat (who every good Christian knows must have made a demonic pact with Satan) would probably win? > *I would NEVER wish for a civil war, but* > That's the problem, there is always a "but". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 21:25:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:25:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014801d5fd6b$b9166bc0$2b434340$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 2:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>> POTUS does not have any authority on the date of the November election. >> To paraphrase Mao Zedong, authority comes from the barrel of a gun. And before you ask the answer is no, I am not a fan of Mao Zedong? John K Clark > And that my international friends is why the USA has a second amendment. The system was set up so that US citizens can protect ourselves from our own government if necessary, >?I think that's a bogus argument for the second amendment, a bunch of silly rednecks with their little hunting rifles would be comically outmatched by what the Commander In Chief would have on his side? The militia doesn?t fight the military. The military takes an oath to defend the constitution, not obey the POTUS. If POTUS is outside the limits of the CONUS, he is no longer president. >? things like Abrams M1 battle tanks and helicopter gunships. And besides, most gun nuts are Trump fanatics too so they'd be of no help in defending the constitution? John K Clark On the contrary sir. The military is identifiable. The militia is not. The military wouldn?t take on an armed militia, for the two forces are on the same side, defending the constitution. John you worry about things that are not real. POTUS does not have the power to seize more power. Were that possible, one or more of his predecessors, perhaps most of this predecessors, would have seized power. By referring to second amendment rights supporters as a bunch of silly rednecks with hunting rifles, you make yourself ever more formidable in the Arrogance Olympiad. Were you to show a trifle of respect for others, we might be able to take you on. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 21:27:38 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:27:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John, like with many other comments here, you seem to be taking your opinions as facts that are cut deeply into stone. I don't know what you mean by "playtime." IMO, the majority of gun owners take the responsibility of owning a fire arm very seriously. The majority of gun owners are definitely Rs but there is a significant portion of the Ds and Independents that own them as well. Most gun owners are also self-reliant and want to depend on the government to provide protection and personal safety as little as possible. Many would be upset if Trump delayed the election indefinitely, including many of his current supporters who would stop being supporters at that point. It's not going to happen, Congress is the only one with that power, and they are not going to do it. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:06 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:33 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > And how many of those playtime civilian well armed infantry soldiers are > NOT fans of Donald Trump? How many would be upset if Trump delayed the > election indefinitely, especially if it looked like a Democrat (who every > good Christian knows must have made a demonic pact with Satan) would > probably win? > > > *I would NEVER wish for a civil war, but* >> > > The but is only there because of how I structured my sentence. Let me fix it for you: I would NEVER wish for a civil war. I think you're underestimating the power of asymmetric warfare in that situation... > That's the problem, there is always a "but". > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 21:29:41 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:29:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > That's the problem, there is always a "but". > > John K Clark Your obsession with the ?but? is just mind-blowingly aggravating. ?But? is an important part of the English language which helps people convey nuanced information. Is this going to devolve back into you accusing everyone of hating science again? SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 21:40:55 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:40:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <014801d5fd6b$b9166bc0$2b434340$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <014801d5fd6b$b9166bc0$2b434340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The military takes an oath to defend the constitution, not obey the > POTUS.* The Attorney General William Barr also mouthed that oath, but there is zero evidence he has taken it seriously. *> Were you to show a trifle of respect for others, we might be able to > take you on.* >From this day forward I solemnly swear to give playtime civilian well armed infantry soldiers all the respect they deserve. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 21:44:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:44:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <014801d5fd6b$b9166bc0$2b434340$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <014801d5fd6b$b9166bc0$2b434340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017201d5fd6e$76a655e0$63f301a0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >>?I think that's a bogus argument for the second amendment, a bunch of silly rednecks with their little hunting rifles would be comically outmatched by what the Commander In Chief would have on his side? >?The militia doesn?t fight the military. The military takes an oath to defend the constitution, not obey the POTUS?spike I might add that your bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting rifles are former military with rifles very similar to the ones the military trained them to field-strip, service and reassemble in the middle of the night in a rainstorm, as well as hit a human-sized target from 800 meters. This is what makes the AR-15 the most popular rifle in America. It isn?t a hunting rifle: in most states .22 caliber ammo is illegal for hunting, for it doesn?t insure a clean kill. Would you like to rethink your attitude on militias please? As you do, note that the 2nd amendment says nothing about hunting. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 21:45:09 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:45:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:35 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Many would be upset if Trump delayed the election indefinitely, > including many of his current supporters who would stop being supporters at > that point.* Nobody would be happier than me if it turns out you're right and I'm wrong about that. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 21:56:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:56:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018b01d5fd70$0c644500$252ccf00$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong >? Many would be upset if Trump delayed the election indefinitely, including many of his current supporters who would stop being supporters at that point. It's not going to happen, Congress is the only one with that power, and they are not going to do it. Dylan On the contrary sir. Congress does not have the authority to delay an election either, indefinitely or otherwise. The quadrennial election is mandated by the constitution which can only be changed by a ? vote of the states. It is quite unlikely that 38 states would vote to give away their power to the federal government, which is the reason why the US government has remained as stable as it has for so long: authority is distributed. This keeps any particular individual or even coalitions from becoming overly power-drunk. The system works. It was well-designed. Note that USA stands for United STATES of America, not United People of America. This too lends stability, for it keeps states in the loop, which is why we have an Electoral College and state legislatures. We need to always recognize how good we have it in our place in history and space. Perhaps the biggest part of having a good life is knowing you have a good life. Life is good. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 22:09:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 15:09:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <014801d5fd6b$b9166bc0$2b434340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01ba01d5fd71$f1515a30$d3f40e90$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >>? Were you to show a trifle of respect for others, we might be able to take you on. >?From this day forward I solemnly swear to give playtime civilian well armed infantry soldiers all the respect they deserve?John K Clark John, your comments suggest to me that you have very little experience with military people, military life, sport shooting clubs, the people who attend shooting competitions, and perhaps anything to do with shooting as a sport and as militia training. There is perhaps even a hint of disdain for these people, subtly hidden in your posts. I recommend you gain some useful firsthand experience in these areas, for it could help your commentary make more sense. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 22:11:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 15:11:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c301d5fd72$2ee8b780$8cba2680$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:35 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: > Many would be upset if Trump delayed the election indefinitely, including many of his current supporters who would stop being supporters at that point. Nobody would be happier than me if it turns out you're right and I'm wrong about that. John K Clark Paradoxically, you don?t seem very happy John. Do share what is really worrying you please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 22:24:52 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:24:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] And now for something completely different Message-ID: I'm cooped up at home today like everybody else but I did learn something new. This formula (1+9^-4^6*7)^3^2^85 is interesting for 2 reasons, the first is it uses every integer from 1 to 9, the second reason is that it works out to be 2.718281828459..., if you say that's Euler's constant then you be *almost* correct but not quite, the formula is not exact, it's only a good approximation of e. How good an approximation? Pretty good, it only starts to go bad afer 18 trillion trillion digits! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 22:27:39 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:27:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <018b01d5fd70$0c644500$252ccf00$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <018b01d5fd70$0c644500$252ccf00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, not that we're going to worry about it, but I believe Congress CAN change the date as long as the POTUS is still sworn in by the date in the Constitution: Could the general election be postponed or canceled? Only with enormous difficulty. The date of the general election is set by federal law and has been fixed since 1845. It would take a change in federal law to move that date. That would mean legislation enacted by Congress, signed by the president and subject to challenge in the courts. To call that unlikely would be an understatement. And even if all of that happened, there would not be much flexibility in choosing an alternate election date: The Constitution mandates that the new Congress must be sworn in on Jan. 3, and that the new president?s term must begin on Jan. 20. Those dates cannot be changed just by the passage of normal legislation. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/us/politics/election-postponed-canceled.html On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > >? Many would be upset if Trump delayed the election indefinitely, > including many of his current supporters who would stop being supporters at > that point. It's not going to happen, Congress is the only one with that > power, and they are not going to do it. Dylan > > > > > > On the contrary sir. Congress does not have the authority to delay an > election either, indefinitely or otherwise. The quadrennial election is > mandated by the constitution which can only be changed by a ? vote of the > states. It is quite unlikely that 38 states would vote to give away their > power to the federal government, which is the reason why the US government > has remained as stable as it has for so long: authority is distributed. > This keeps any particular individual or even coalitions from becoming > overly power-drunk. The system works. It was well-designed. > > > > Note that USA stands for United STATES of America, not United People of > America. This too lends stability, for it keeps states in the loop, which > is why we have an Electoral College and state legislatures. > > > > We need to always recognize how good we have it in our place in history > and space. Perhaps the biggest part of having a good life is knowing you > have a good life. Life is good. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 22:36:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:36:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <01c301d5fd72$2ee8b780$8cba2680$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <01c301d5fd72$2ee8b780$8cba2680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Paradoxically, you don?t seem very happy John. Do share what is really worrying you please. spike I think John is worried that we are not as worried as he is. Thus we are not taking it (whatever it happens to be at the moment) seriously enough. I have never seen him satisfied on that account. bill w bill w On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:35 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **Many would be upset if Trump delayed the election indefinitely, > including many of his current supporters who would stop being supporters at > that point.* > > > > Nobody would be happier than me if it turns out you're right and I'm wrong > about that. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > Paradoxically, you don?t seem very happy John. Do share what is really > worrying you please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 22:40:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:40:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] And now for something completely different In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With that knowledge my life is now complete! Thanks John. bill w On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:35 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm cooped up at home today like everybody else but I did learn something > new. This formula (1+9^-4^6*7)^3^2^85 is interesting for 2 reasons, the > first is it uses every integer from 1 to 9, the second reason is that it > works out to be > 2.718281828459..., if you say that's Euler's constant then you be *almost* > correct but not quite, the formula is not exact, it's only a good > approximation of e. How good an approximation? Pretty good, it only starts > to go bad afer 18 trillion trillion digits! > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 18 23:04:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:04:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <018b01d5fd70$0c644500$252ccf00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <021401d5fd79$a998ef20$fccacd60$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat The date of the general election is set by federal law and has been fixed since 1845. It would take a change in federal law to move that date. That would mean legislation enacted by Congress, signed by the president and subject to challenge in the courts. To call that unlikely would be an understatement. ? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/us/politics/election-postponed-canceled.html OK thanks for that Dylan. I am very confident that a POTUS who won the election by a narrow margin is quite unlikely to attempt to seize power. We may have dodged a bullet in another way however. Perhaps you will recall 20 yrs ago as discussion here spoke of the development of cameras and microphones small enough to be easily carried in one?s clothing. If you have ever taken an old cell phone apart (you didn?t? (Why not?)) you already know how small are the cameras in those things, and of course you already know the quality of the video they can attain. We speculated that people would wear them, infiltrate into organized crime and political campaigns (risking redundancy with that comment) and gather all kinds of intel. This has happened. Perhaps you have heard of Project Veritas, which infiltrated the campaign of a suspected socialist (whose name I forget) with millions of dedicated followers. The open suggestions of violence should that candidate be cheated by the mainstream party he joined is most worrisome. https://youtu.be/4zpCVM0delQ The commentary on abolishing landlords turned off Californians, many of whom own second or third homes, as well as rental property. Many of these are Vietnamese expatriates, who have plenty of stories to tell of honest people being murdered because they had owned property. We had campaign workers caught on video suggesting their candidate would abolish landlords. Abolish in this case means ?murder.? Since that candidate appears to be fading quickly (after having spoken words regarding Fidel Castro which are very offensive to so many Floridians (but possibly also because of the Project Veritas expose) it will likely not be a problem. But had he gone to the convention with a strong plurality and the party just said no, there would be big trouble. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 00:03:40 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:03:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:32 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I would NEVER wish for a civil war, but I think you're underestimating the > power of asymmetric warfare in that situation. Gun owners are hardly a > bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting rifles. Many of them are as > well armed as a typical infantry soldier in terms of weaponry. If the will > was there to defend/revolt, it would not be an easy fight without resorting > to bombing large swathes of the US. > ### That's why status-maximizing psychopaths in power (who always want more power) always try to disarm the populace. Nazis did it to Jews, "Democrats" want to do it to us. There, Godwin's law FTW. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 00:09:40 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:09:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: +1 On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 8:05 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:32 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I would NEVER wish for a civil war, but I think you're underestimating >> the power of asymmetric warfare in that situation. Gun owners are hardly a >> bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting rifles. Many of them are as >> well armed as a typical infantry soldier in terms of weaponry. If the will >> was there to defend/revolt, it would not be an easy fight without resorting >> to bombing large swathes of the US. >> > > ### That's why status-maximizing psychopaths in power (who always want > more power) always try to disarm the populace. Nazis did it to Jews, > "Democrats" want to do it to us. > > There, Godwin's law FTW. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 00:12:06 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:12:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 6:03 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:35 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Many would be upset if Trump delayed the election indefinitely, >> including many of his current supporters who would stop being supporters at >> that point.* > > > Nobody would be happier than me if it turns out you're right and I'm wrong > about that. > > ### I don't believe you. You are probably so far down the rabbit hole that TDS is a part of your identity, and you are suffering cognitive dissonance from all the, well, normalcy that is associated with the Trump presidency. Trump so far has been a middling centrist, at least by late 20th century standards. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 19 00:45:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:45:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <027e01d5fd87$a42cf640$ec86e2c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 5:04 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Rafal Smigrodzki Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:32 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: I would NEVER wish for a civil war, but I think you're underestimating the power of asymmetric warfare in that situation. Gun owners are hardly a bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting rifles. Many of them are as well armed as a typical infantry soldier in terms of weaponry. If the will was there to defend/revolt, it would not be an easy fight without resorting to bombing large swathes of the US. ### That's why status-maximizing psychopaths in power (who always want more power) always try to disarm the populace. Nazis did it to Jews, "Democrats" want to do it to us. >?There, Godwin's law FTW. It should have been called Godwin?s Opinion, in my law. There are times when it is perfectly appropriate to use the best known example of power-abusing tyrants to describe power-abusing tyrants, and multiple levels. Consider this comment by one of the POTUS candidates: Ninety-five percent of murders, murderers and murder victims, fit one M.O. You can just take a description, Xerox it, and pass it out to all the cops. They are male minorities, 16 to 25. That?s true in New York, that?s true in virtually every city (inaudible). And that?s where the real crime is. You?ve got to get the guns out of the hands of people that are getting killed. ? That last sentence slays me. Oh wait, retract that. I would then be one of the people getting killed, which means this candidate thinks I must be disarmed. Perhaps that would make those actually perpetrating the murders safer? What is that, an OSHA regulation? >?I'm cooped up at home today like everybody else? Me too. Apparently many people think they can?t go outside. We can still go outside of course. I certainly did. >?but I did learn something new. This formula (1+9^-4^6*7)^3^2^85 is interesting for 2 reasons, the first is it uses every integer from 1 to 9, the second reason is that it works out to be 2.718281828459..., if you say that's Euler's constant then you be almost correct but not quite, the formula is not exact, it's only a good approximation of e. How good an approximation? Pretty good, it only starts to go bad afer 18 trillion trillion digits! John K Clark That is indeed cool but I have trouble finding how it is good to 18 trillion digits. Using Taylor series it looks a lot closer than that. Wolfram gives 18 septillion digits: Number Theory > Constants > e > Recreational Mathematics > Numerology > MathWorld Contributors > Barron > More... e Approximations An amazing pandigital approximation to that is correct to 18457734525360901453873570 decimal digits is given by (1) found by R. Sabey in 2004 (Friedman 2004). It is an astonishing formula. Surely some meta-programmer who wrote us is having fun watching our mind-boggled expressions at seeing this for the first time. If you start thinking about it, one realizes there are arbitrarily many really super good approximations for e, formed by taking a verrrrry small number, adding 1 and raising the result to a reeeeeaaaally big number. This one is crazy close however, and using all 9 of the first integers is really cool. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 3013 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.gif Type: image/gif Size: 169 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1520 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 19 01:25:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:25:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <02a901d5fd8d$49478e60$dbd6ab20$@rainier66.com> What if? those news stories of the Italians breaking into song is all fake? What if they are all so terrified they won?t even go out on the balcony? I hope it is real. Speaking of real: my father in law is 80. He has been shopping at the same grocery store for 30 years. He would try to get in the line of a particular checker. Today she stopped by his house with a box of groceries that are the things he always buys there. The store manager picked up the tab. She asked if there was anything else he needed; if so she would bring it by, for she already hasta go in there every day anyway, so it is no additional risk. It isn?t a big city, but not really a small one either: Spokane Washington. I do hope the Italian singers on the balcony is true. Emergencies bring out both the inhumanity and the humanity in humans. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 01:26:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:26:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That's why status-maximizing psychopaths in power (who always want more power) always try to disarm the populace. Nazis did it to Jews, "Democrats" want to do it to us. rafal I am an independent who votes Democratic. I cannot speak for anyone else, but here is what I think about guns: automatic weapons should be totally illegal - for military only - I am on the border about the semiautomatic weapons - if you can't kill something with one shot, stay home and practice until you can; guns should be registered and background checks thorough, esp. for a criminal record - no guns for felons with a violent record or for those who have been institutionalized for psychotic problems (or anyone with psychotic problems). (I might think of some more reasons, but none that I believe conservatives would object to.) Why they object to any of the above is a mystery to me.) That's about all. If everyone who could meet the above criteria had ten guns it would not bother me a bit. I do think confiscation is never going to happen and those who think so might be a bit paranoid. Even if confiscation were the law, I'll bet many who would be tasked with doing it would not do it. I have used shotguns and rifles and currently only have a pistol. Did not like killing animals though I did so quite competently. And ate what I killed - deer, ducks, doves, quail, squirrels. (My dad liked squirrel brains.) bill w On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 7:06 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:32 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I would NEVER wish for a civil war, but I think you're underestimating >> the power of asymmetric warfare in that situation. Gun owners are hardly a >> bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting rifles. Many of them are as >> well armed as a typical infantry soldier in terms of weaponry. If the will >> was there to defend/revolt, it would not be an easy fight without resorting >> to bombing large swathes of the US. >> > > ### That's why status-maximizing psychopaths in power (who always want > more power) always try to disarm the populace. Nazis did it to Jews, > "Democrats" want to do it to us. > > There, Godwin's law FTW. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 19 03:22:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:22:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong Message-ID: <030b01d5fd9d$9bbdd5e0$d33981a0$@rainier66.com> OK we are doing all this social distancing and after a while it becomes habit, for good reason, ja? If covid is with us indefinitely, we will face it again next flu season, and it isn?t clear at what point it mutates into something less lethal, as did H1N1 and the other bad guys from a few years ago. Rafal is that how that works? It mutates into something more like an ordinary flu? In the meantime, I am pleased with the way the school is doing: the online distance learning seems to be working. The next step seems pretty obvious. Colleges will need to transition to distance learning. We have a lot of pressure toward cancelling student loans, and if we do, it becomes impossible to get student loans: they are too risky. So we create a huge demand for college which doesn?t cost much of anything. So if we have a way to let students learn any way they can, then get their credentials taking a pile of tests at their own pace, that shouldn?t cost much. Then people who can?t come up with the price up front for college can still get a degree. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 19 03:41:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:41:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <030b01d5fd9d$9bbdd5e0$d33981a0$@rainier66.com> References: <030b01d5fd9d$9bbdd5e0$d33981a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <031a01d5fda0$5177ad50$f46707f0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: social distancing, was: RE: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong >?OK we are doing all this social distancing and after a while it becomes habit, for good reason, ja? ? So if we have a way to let students learn any way they can, then get their credentials taking a pile of tests at their own pace, that shouldn?t cost much. Then people who can?t come up with the price up front for college can still get a degree. Perhaps everyone here has noticed the internet as slow as Christmas. If we think about it, what that represents is that all available bandwidth is humming, passing data every which way, person to person, node to node, as fast as its impressive streaming can stream. We are all educating each other. What a marvelous time to be living. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 15:15:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 11:15:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] And now for something completely different In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 8:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >?but I did learn something new. This formula (1+9^-4^6*7)^3^2^85 is >> interesting for 2 reasons, the first is it uses every integer from 1 to 9, >> the second reason is that it works out to be 2.718281828459..., if you say >> that's Euler's constant then you be *almost* correct but not quite, the >> formula is not exact, it's only a good approximation of e. How good an >> approximation? Pretty good, it only starts to go bad afer 18 trillion >> trillion digits! John K Clark > > > *> That is indeed cool but I have trouble finding how it is good to 18 > trillion digits*. > It's good for 18 trillion TRILLION digits, only after that does it deviate from e. Incredible Formula - Numberphile Stay Healthy. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 19 14:56:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 07:56:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] geezer time Message-ID: <002c01d5fdfe$8c509730$a4f1c590$@rainier66.com> Went to Safeway this morning, figured if I get there right at 0600 opening, the crowds would be light and no problem. Come to find out they reserved the first half hour for senior citizens only. They let me right in. No questions, no ID, nothing. Ass holes! What is this ?senior citizen? nonsense? I am sooo going to complain to management, them rudely letting me right on in there like that without even the courtesy of the old sideways eyeball, sheesh. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 19 15:01:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 08:01:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] watching and waiting, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong Message-ID: <003301d5fdff$4411e950$cc35bbf0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >? And ate what I killed - deer, ducks, doves, quail, squirrels. (My dad liked squirrel brains.) bill w We are a lucky species. What if? squirrels liked human brains? Then every time we go outdoors, we know the bushy-ass bastards are up there, just watching us, waiting, watching. Oh that would be so creepy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 14:04:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 09:04:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] viruses Message-ID: It is my understanding that your body kills a virus or the virus kills your body. There is only symptomatic treatment, right? So just how is corona going to overwhelm our health system? People will seek treatment but there isn't any - stay home and don't infect others. Plenty of fluids; aspirin for fever; supplemental oxygen for severe cases. What else? Who knows? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 11:53:48 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 07:53:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <030b01d5fd9d$9bbdd5e0$d33981a0$@rainier66.com> References: <030b01d5fd9d$9bbdd5e0$d33981a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Who knows maybe something good will come out of this. In 1666 Cambridge was shut down due to the Bubonic plague, Isaac Newton had to go home and he had nothing to do but sit around under an apple tree. And then he got the idea for Calculus and for the law of universal gravitation. It would be cool if something like that happened now. Stay healthy everybody John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 11:37:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 07:37:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <017201d5fd6e$76a655e0$63f301a0$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <014801d5fd6b$b9166bc0$2b434340$@rainier66.com> <017201d5fd6e$76a655e0$63f301a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>?The militia doesn?t fight the military. The military takes an oath to > defend the constitution, not obey the POTUS?spike* > > *I might add that your bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting rifles > are former military with rifles very similar to the ones the military > trained them to field-strip, service and reassemble in the middle of the > night in a rainstorm, as well as hit a human-sized target from 800 meters. > This is what makes the AR-15 the most popular rifle in America. It isn?t a > hunting rifle: in most states .22 caliber ammo is illegal for hunting, for > it doesn?t insure a clean kill.* > > *Would you like to rethink your attitude on militias please? * > I'll try, but there is something I don't understand. If the professional army remains loyal to the constitution and not the President, as you are certain they will, then who do the people in these private redneck militias imagine they'll be fighting? I think they just like to have fun playing soldier on the weekend and would be useless in any presidential power grab, or worse would actively join sides with the oppressor. The Roman Republic lasted about 200 years and then they got an Emperor, we may be going down the same road. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 11:07:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 07:07:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 8:22 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> *> Many would be upset if Trump delayed the election indefinitely, >>> including many of his current supporters who would stop being supporters at >>> that point.* >> >> >> Nobody would be happier than me if it turns out you're right and I'm >> wrong about that. >> > > ### I don't believe you. You are probably so far down the rabbit hole that > TDS is a part of your identity, and you are suffering cognitive dissonance > from all the, well, normalcy that is associated with the Trump presidency. > Trump so far has been a middling centrist, at least by late 20th century > standards. > Rafal > Stay healthy Rafal John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 11:02:50 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 07:02:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <027e01d5fd87$a42cf640$ec86e2c0$@rainier66.com> References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <027e01d5fd87$a42cf640$ec86e2c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 8:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >?but I did learn something new. This formula (1+9^-4^6*7)^3^2^85 is >> interesting for 2 reasons, the first is it uses every integer from 1 to 9, >> the second reason is that it works out to be 2.718281828459..., if you say >> that's Euler's constant then you be *almost* correct but not quite, the >> formula is not exact, it's only a good approximation of e. How good an >> approximation? Pretty good, it only starts to go bad afer 18 trillion >> trillion digits! John K Clark > > > *> That is indeed cool but I have trouble finding how it is good to 18 > trillion digits*. > It's good for 18 trillion TRILLION digits, only after that does it deviate from e. Incredible Formula - Numberphile Stay Healthy. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 3013 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.gif Type: image/gif Size: 169 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1520 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 19 21:06:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 14:06:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] And now for something completely different In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008c01d5fe32$4087d000$c1977000$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?It's good for 18 trillion TRILLION digits, only after that does it deviate from e. Incredible Formula - Numberphile It helps remind us, the way e happens: e = limit as n approached infinity (1 +1/n)^n If that is insufficiently cool, then take the limit as n approaches infinity of (1-1/n)^n which approaches 1/e. >?Stay Healthy. John K Clark So far so good. The grocery store was astonishing this morning: they were out of a loooootta lotta stuff. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 16:30:46 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 09:30:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: COVID-19 treatments using drugs already on the market In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like a treatment is emerging. Keith -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as a treatment of COVID-19.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 462795 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 19 22:05:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:05:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <014501d5fae9$ee1b53f0$ca51fbd0$@rainier66.com> <017401d5faed$91db7710$b5926530$@rainier66.com> <01c701d5fb00$f7d12bb0$e7738310$@rainier66.com> <015101d5fca6$0c5addf0$251099d0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d5fcb3$71635b20$542a1160$@rainier66.com> <004601d5fd42$be4b4350$3ae1c9f0$@rainier66.com> <002501d5fd50$d0173310$70459930$@rainier66.com> <014801d5fd6b$b9166bc0$2b434340$@rainier66.com> <017201d5fd6e$76a655e0$63f301a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ea01d5fe3a$81720830$84561890$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 4:38 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >?The militia doesn?t fight the military. The military takes an oath to defend the constitution, not obey the POTUS?spike I might add that your bunch of silly rednecks with little hunting rifles are former military with rifles very similar to the ones the military trained them to field-strip, service and reassemble in the middle of the night in a rainstorm, as well as hit a human-sized target from 800 meters. This is what makes the AR-15 the most popular rifle in America. It isn?t a hunting rifle: in most states .22 caliber ammo is illegal for hunting, for it doesn?t insure a clean kill. Would you like to rethink your attitude on militias please? >?I'll try, but there is something I don't understand. If the professional army remains loyal to the constitution and not the President, as you are certain they will, then who do the people in these private redneck militias imagine they'll be fighting? The militias fight those who join the insurrection. I consider it most unlikely the military would join that, but also keep in mind that the military must be paid, whereas the militia does not. It was intentionally set up such that if the US government cannot pay its military, the newly-formed states would not be defenseless. It still works that way today. >?I think they just like to have fun playing soldier on the weekend? You would be surprised at how seriously some of these people ?playing soldier? take this kind of thing. Plenty of them are former military, and they are quite good at what they do. You would learn a lot if you were to look into this deeply. >?and would be useless in any presidential power grab? John you were aware that a presidential power grab was attempted before, by Andrew Jackson, who had a lot more advantages: he was very popular with the masses, there was little communication, and the US had far fewer precedents for handling government power. >?or worse would actively join sides with the oppressor? John if you go against the constitution, you are the oppressor. I am betting the constitution will hold strong, even as the US government begins to default on its debts, most likely starting with Medicare and Social Security. >?The Roman Republic lasted about 200 years and then they got an Emperor, we may be going down the same road. John K Clark The constant wariness of power grabbers is a good thing. The power of the US presidency has decreased considerably in the past decade, even more steeply in the past three years. This is a good thing. I can assure you, the current POTUS whose name escapes me at the moment, is not plotting to take over the government or the military, and is not planning any kind of insurrection. The military is legally obligated to refuse illegal orders. They know what those are. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Thu Mar 19 22:57:40 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 17:57:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 treatments using drugs already on the market Message-ID: Now that coronavirus is the central focus of humanity and its scientific enterprise, I am confident that it will be defeated. Meanwhile, wife, self, dogs and horses just hanging out at home. With the occasional grocery run. From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 22:58:17 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:58:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 2:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is my understanding that your body kills a virus or the virus kills > your body. There is only symptomatic treatment, right? > For a broad definition of "symptomatic". For instance, in severe cases one symptom is excessive mucus (and/or other substances) in the throat and/or lungs, beyond an unaided body's ability to breathe - but which mechanical assistance, available at hospitals, can overcome. As I understand it, sometimes the virus can directly kill the host, but more often it is these secondary symptomatic effects that actually inflict the fatal blow. I believe it's similar to asthma or severe allergies: it's not the body's reaction itself that is directly fatal, but rather the effects of the symptom (to take another respiratory tract example: peanut allergy sufferer swallows peanut butter causes inflammation in the throat causes inability to breathe causes asphyxiation). There are other antiviral measures hospitals can take, too. It is easier to supply drugs and topical treatments at a central facility such as a hospital. But symptom treatment is one of the measures. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:04:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 19:04:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Good news and bad news Message-ID: Not a single new case of COVID-19 was reported in China today, but in the last 24 hours 427 more people died if it in Italy bringing the grand total to 3,405. So now more people have died of COVID-19 in Italy than in China. I've heard several epidemiologists say if you want to know what things will be like in the USA in 10 days then look at Italy. Both countries seem to be following the same curve. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:07:28 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:07:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EB6CFE9-D450-48B4-B7EF-6A51F21594BA@gmail.com> On Mar 19, 2020, at 2:23 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > Who knows maybe something good will come out of this. In 1666 Cambridge was shut down due to the Bubonic plague, Isaac Newton had to go home and he had nothing to do but sit around under an apple tree. And then he got the idea for Calculus and for the law of universal gravitation. It would be cool if something like that happened now. To be sure, Newton did learn much from Isaac Barrow when at Cambridge and the calculus builds on earlier work, both Newton?s own and the works of many others that he?d read. (The influence of Descartes on Newton is often overlooked here.) Doesn?t mean his break didn?t have an impact, though I?m not sure it was decisive. One sad thing was he didn?t publish right away because this lead to others following similar leads (from Barrow, Fermat, etc.), most notably Leibniz. And this lead to acrimony that slowed down some of the interchange of mathematical ideas between Britain and the Continent in its wake ? or so it seems to me. > Stay healthy everybody You as well. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:20:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 19:20:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] It's totally under control Message-ID: I've done a great job John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:26:07 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:26:07 +1100 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 08:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is my understanding that your body kills a virus or the virus kills > your body. There is only symptomatic treatment, right? > > So just how is corona going to overwhelm our health system? People will > seek treatment but there isn't any - stay home and don't infect others. > > Plenty of fluids; aspirin for fever; supplemental oxygen for severe > cases. What else? > > Who knows? > There are many supportive treatments that may be useful if someone is severely unwell due to a virus that cannot itself be directly treated. For example, they may get a secondary bacterial infection that can be treated with antibiotics, or they may need ventilation in an intensive care unit. If the secondary effects of the virus can be managed the patient may survive where otherwise they would die. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:49:32 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:49:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DD6B873-715B-49D1-B50A-3D6C978307FA@gmail.com> I think the ?it?ll either kill you, or you?ll live? mindset is overly simplistic. If that were actually the case, and hospitals were largely ineffectual, then we would not expect to see a spike in deaths when hospitals are overburdened. In any case, mechanical ventilation may allow a patient who would otherwise die, to recover. In conditions such as COVID-19, anorexia is a symptom. The lack of interest in eating or drinking can lead to imbalances of fluids and dehydration. IV fluids can be indicated here. I don?t trust the average person to run an IV line. This is even more indicated in someone suffering from gastrointestinal distress ? which, by the way, is common in COVID-19 patients! While you might say, ?drink more water?, but when I was recently stricken with the flu, I lacked the strength to stand up to get a glass of water. I crawled to the bathroom on more than one occasion, and stumbled/fell my way to the bathroom for 2-3 days besides that. I went 7 days, where I only at 2 slices of toast the entire time. Likely COVID-19 patients experience the same. When very, very ill, one lacks the strength to do basic things, and at that point the hospital is the correct answer. Also, if there is pronounced confusion as well. But I feel you are overlooking an important point as well ? patients in hospital do not visit relatives, have relatives care for them, go shopping, or attempt to go to work. Viral Pneumonia If you have an influenza virus, your doctor may prescribe medications such as oseltamivir (Tamiflu), zanamivir (Relenza), or peramivir (Rapivab). These drugs keep flu viruses from spreading in your body. Source: https://www.webmd.com/lung/viral-pneumonia-lung-infection Polio - Difficultly swallowing can be deadly, as can difficultly breathing Because no cure for polio exists, the focus is on increasing comfort, speeding recovery and preventing complications. Supportive treatments include: Pain relievers Portable ventilators to assist breathing Moderate exercise (physical therapy) to prevent deformity and loss of muscle function Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/polio/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20376517 In fact, for the viral disease polio, the damage can be so severe that long term assistive equipment may be required, such as iron lung. However, after a few weeks of assisted most patients regained the ability to breathe again. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_lung See: https://youtu.be/gplA6pq9cOs SARS Mechanical ventilation and oxygen therapy are often needed. Drug intervention often required because of opportunistic infection. Source: https://www.medsci.org/v01p0001.htm SR Ballard > On Mar 19, 2020, at 9:04 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > It is my understanding that your body kills a virus or the virus kills your body. There is only symptomatic treatment, right? > > So just how is corona going to overwhelm our health system? People will seek treatment but there isn't any - stay home and don't infect others. > > Plenty of fluids; aspirin for fever; supplemental oxygen for severe cases. What else? > > Who knows? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 00:54:40 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 17:54:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong Message-ID: spike wrote: > If covid is with us indefinitely, we will face it again next flu season, It won't be. For some countries such as Iran, it will infect most of the population with a high death toll. China seems to have stopped it. It is hard to say what the US will be like, but I seriously doubt it will last a year. > Colleges will need to transition to distance learning. I doubt it. Somewhere around is an article Freeman Dyson wrote about his daughter Esther Dyson's time at Harvard. She recognized that who you know is at least as important as what you know. Few college students understand that. She did and if you read into her Wikipedia page you can see what she did with that knowledge. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 01:24:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:24:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003a01d5fe56$462a2f70$d27e8e50$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat >>... Colleges will need to transition to distance learning. >...I doubt it. Somewhere around is an article Freeman Dyson wrote about his daughter Esther Dyson's time at Harvard. She recognized that who you know is at least as important as what you know. Few college students understand that. She did and if you read into her Wikipedia page you can see what she did with that knowledge. Keith _______________________________________________ I could see a situation where those who have plenty of money and are not dependent on loans would still go to traditional colleges, whereas those without the means up front would transition to dramatically lower-cost options. Both could end up with similar degrees and similar scores on the GRE. But one would have connections. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 01:33:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 20:33:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <003a01d5fe56$462a2f70$d27e8e50$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d5fe56$462a2f70$d27e8e50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If anyone knows: when taking courses online, how do they determine if the person taking the courses takes the tests? How do you prevent cheating of various kinds? I have no idea. bill w On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 8:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat > > > >>... Colleges will need to transition to distance learning. > > >...I doubt it. Somewhere around is an article Freeman Dyson wrote about > his daughter Esther Dyson's time at Harvard. She recognized that who you > know is at least as important as what you know. Few college students > understand that. She did and if you read into her Wikipedia page you can > see what she did with that knowledge. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > > I could see a situation where those who have plenty of money and are not > dependent on loans would still go to traditional colleges, whereas those > without the means up front would transition to dramatically lower-cost > options. > > Both could end up with similar degrees and similar scores on the GRE. But > one would have connections. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 02:26:30 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 21:26:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d5fe56$462a2f70$d27e8e50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, IP address would help. But having someone else use your home terminal? Nothing I know of at the moment. Perhaps in the future they?ll use webcam to take one frame every so often. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 19, 2020, at 8:33 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > If anyone knows: when taking courses online, how do they determine if the person taking the courses takes the tests? How do you prevent cheating of various kinds? I have no idea. > > bill w > >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 8:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat >> >> >> >>... Colleges will need to transition to distance learning. >> >> >...I doubt it. Somewhere around is an article Freeman Dyson wrote about >> his daughter Esther Dyson's time at Harvard. She recognized that who you >> know is at least as important as what you know. Few college students >> understand that. She did and if you read into her Wikipedia page you can >> see what she did with that knowledge. >> >> Keith >> _______________________________________________ >> >> I could see a situation where those who have plenty of money and are not >> dependent on loans would still go to traditional colleges, whereas those >> without the means up front would transition to dramatically lower-cost >> options. >> >> Both could end up with similar degrees and similar scores on the GRE. But >> one would have connections. >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 02:28:22 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 19:28:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d5fe56$462a2f70$d27e8e50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 6:35 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If anyone knows: when taking courses online, how do they determine if the > person taking the courses takes the tests? How do you prevent cheating of > various kinds? I have no idea. > To prevent various kinds of cheating, there are various kinds of countermeasures. 1) Open book exams. What cheating? Heck, in some cases, copying & pasting the answer can be all but encouraged - because it means you know how to find the answer when you need it. Unless someone leaked the answer to that specific version of the test - in which case, just make a new version each time, and have everyone who'll be taking it, take it at the same time. 2) Where the students should be writing answers in their own words, literal-same-word repeats between different students' answers is a red flag. 3) Timed quizzes where looking up the answer would itself take too much time: either you know it off the top of your head or you don't. (Though some can look things up much faster than others.) 4) Write the questions with synonyms to what's written in the book, or otherwise rephrase to what a human should be able to process but the easily publicly accessible AIs can not. Google the questions beforehand, to make it at least likely that the students won't be able to simply look up the answers. And that's just off the top of my head. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Mar 19 23:22:37 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:22:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong Message-ID: <20200319162237.Horde.cI6c6YMMNkaK6SZge_W-TeB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Sorry for the repost but needed to correct reference 1 for OCD purposes. Lol. :-) Quoting Spike: > OK we are doing all this social distancing and after a while it > becomes habit, for good reason, ja? For as much fear as it generates, COVID-19 pales in comparison to the likes of smallpox or the measles which are far more communicable and deadly both. Brought to heel by vaccinations those two killers were. Habits like washing your hands and not touching your face will serve you well every cold and flu season. Shutting down bars and restaurants, not so much. > If covid is with us indefinitely, we will face it again next flu > season, and it isn?t clear at what point it mutates into something > less lethal, as did H1N1 and the other bad guys from a few years ago. While it might remain endemic in some areas, it will likely not become a seasonal hazard like H1N1 or other influenza viruses. Unlike many other RNA viruses like Influenza or HIV, SARS-CoV-2 is highly conserved genome-wise. With strains sampled in countries all over the world being on average 99.1% to 100% identical to the reference genome.(1) This virus will be one-hit-wonder relegated to working small venues thereafter. Other coronaviruses might arise however as apparently there are a lot in animal hosts that we haven't identified yet. Incidently, the Imperial College paper that the President's current strategy is based on suggests that approximately 80% of people will get the virus. They will either survive and be immune to this particular coronavirus or not be so lucky. All social distancing is expected to do is slow down how fast that 80% get infected so that the hospital capacity is not overwhelmed. In essence, we are trading severity for duration of the epidemic. (2) > Rafal is that how that works? It mutates into something more like > an ordinary flu? FWIW, I may not be a medical doctor like Rafal but I am a published microbiologist. So believe me when I say that there is nothing ordinary about flu viruses. Their ability to recreate themselves year after year to get past your immune system is ingenious. In any case, SARS-CoV-2 has no such ability. Here are the references: (1) https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jmv.25762 (2) https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf Stuart LaForge From dsunley at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 03:05:40 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 21:05:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] It's totally under control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's the President's job to exude confidence, earned or otherwise. It's what Trump's done his entire life, what he was hired for, and frankly, he isn't much good at anything else. On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 5:27 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I've done a great job > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 04:30:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 21:30:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d5fe56$462a2f70$d27e8e50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005401d5fe70$392620d0$ab726270$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong If anyone knows: when taking courses online, how do they determine if the person taking the courses takes the tests? How do you prevent cheating of various kinds? I have no idea. bill w They don?t. But your question gives me an idea. To get credentials, one would need to sit for proctored tests in a controlled environment. A student could learn the material any way available. BillW since you are in the education field, do think this over: what if? the mainstream-ey classes could have standardized testing. We have the SAT and GRE, such as that. We could have a standardized test for thermodynamics, for machine design, for structures, for vibration analysis, all of it. Note that my area is engineering, which is an objective area of learning. The idea formulating in my mind is only applicable to objective fields of study. I have no idea how psychology classes would work, or literature or anything that requires classes to discuss stuff. With engineering, math, physics, my world, the material can be learned any which way and credentials could be issued based on standardized testing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 04:47:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 21:47:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <20200319162237.Horde.cI6c6YMMNkaK6SZge_W-TeB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200319162237.Horde.cI6c6YMMNkaK6SZge_W-TeB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <005b01d5fe72$99ec8880$cdc59980$@rainier66.com> >... FWIW, I may not be a medical doctor like Rafal but I am a published microbiologist... Stuart! You are a microbiologist! I assumed you are an engineer by all the stuff you know. I don't recall your ever saying anything about being a microbiologist. This particular pandemic is reshaping our society in ways I think can be productive. For some time I have been howling about how we have the technology to stop moving around as much as we do (as an example) and to do a lot of education in our homes rather than in schools and universities. I have long felt we have not harnessed the potential of technology even a little. Khan Academy was a terrific demonstration of what can be done, if a student has drive and determination. My son is viewing a streamed video of one of his classes right now, as the remainder of the school year has been cancelled, but classes go on. Amazon Prime is something I have been using more and more over the past coupla years. I didn't use it much for groceries, but did for oddball stuff that is hard to find. Now everybody is trying to use it, and Amazon is SLAMMED, is just on its knees, as it brutally takes over all merchandizing, at which time Jeff Bezos will own the world. Terrified he is, of pitchfork and torch-wielding masses, protesting his trillions. Or not, but in any case, we are demonstrating that society really can operate on delivery trucks running constantly, rather than individual cars moving about. Our governor is apparently terrified by the risk that our hospitals will be completely overwhelmed. If so, one of the most vulnerable populations are the homeless, of which California has so very many, because they live in close quarters where cleanliness is difficult or ignored. There are plenty of homeless people who have never heard of Corona virus. If the hospitals are filled to capacity with homeless such that the people who paid for them can't get in, there will be trouble for the old guv. spike From avant at sollegro.com Thu Mar 19 23:19:54 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:19:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200319161954.Horde.x19PrQy9A53acNPzbMbTkfk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: > OK we are doing all this social distancing and after a while it > becomes habit, for good reason, ja? For as much fear as it generates, COVID-19 pales in comparison to the likes of smallpox or the measles which are far more communicable and deadly both. Brought to heel by vaccinations those two killers were. Habits like washing your hands and not touching your face will serve you well every cold and flu season. Shutting down bars and restaurants, not so much. > If covid is with us indefinitely, we will face it again next flu > season, and it isn?t clear at what point it mutates into something > less lethal, as did H1N1 and the other bad guys from a few years ago. While it might remain endemic in some areas, it will likely not become a seasonal hazard like H1N1 or other influenza viruses. Unlike many other RNA viruses like Influenza or HIV, SARS-CoV-2 is highly conserved genome-wise. With strains sampled in countries all over the world being on average 99.1% to 100% identical to the reference genome.(1) This virus will be one-hit-wonder relegated to working small venues thereafter. Other coronaviruses might arise however as apparently there are a lot in animal hosts that we haven't identified yet. Incidently, the Imperial College paper that the President's current strategy is based on suggests that approximately 80% of people will get the virus. They will either survive and be immune to this particular coronavirus or not be so lucky. All social distancing is expected to do is slow down how fast that 80% get infected so that the hospital capacity is not overwhelmed. In essence, we are trading severity for duration of the epidemic. (2) > Rafal is that how that works? It mutates into something more like > an ordinary flu? FWIW, I may not be a medical doctor like Rafal but I am a published microbiologist. So believe me when I say that there is nothing ordinary about flu viruses. Their ability to recreate themselves year after year to get past your immune system is ingenious. In any case, SARS-CoV-2 has no such ability. Here are the references: (1) https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.25701 (2) https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 10:40:56 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 06:40:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] watching and waiting, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <003301d5fdff$4411e950$cc35bbf0$@rainier66.com> References: <003301d5fdff$4411e950$cc35bbf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 5:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > >? And ate what I killed - deer, ducks, doves, quail, squirrels. (My > dad liked squirrel brains.) bill w > > > > > > We are a lucky species. What if? squirrels liked human brains? > > > > Then every time we go outdoors, we know the bushy-ass bastards are up > there, just watching us, waiting, watching. Oh that would be so creepy. > > > ### Human brains are very nutritious but luckily for us, a rather tough nut to crack even for accomplished predators. They just don't know what kind of delicacy we are hiding from them. But, just in case, I am in favor of preemptively dispatching all wild creatures capable of human skull-cracking. Plus, these creatures' hides make for nice trophies. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 10:46:53 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 06:46:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 5:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is my understanding that your body kills a virus or the virus kills > your body. There is only symptomatic treatment, right? > > So just how is corona going to overwhelm our health system? People will > seek treatment but there isn't any - stay home and don't infect others. > > Plenty of fluids; aspirin for fever; supplemental oxygen for severe > cases. What else? > > Who knows? > > ### NO ASPIRIN!!!!!! This is medical advice from me, a physician licensed in the states of Virginia and North Carolina - DO NOT self-administer ASPIRIN, IBUPROFEN, NAPROXEN and other similar medications if you suspect you have the Wuhan virus. These medications may be associated with increased mortality in this disease. Consult with your physician for suspected infection. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 10:55:09 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 06:55:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <20200319162237.Horde.cI6c6YMMNkaK6SZge_W-TeB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200319162237.Horde.cI6c6YMMNkaK6SZge_W-TeB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:04 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > FWIW, I may not be a medical doctor like Rafal but I am a published > microbiologist. ### Wisely, I did not comment the virology of Covid-19 :)) I am a neurologist, so respiratory viruses are out of my field. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 11:31:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 07:31:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] It's totally under control Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:05 PM Darin Sunley wrote: I've done a great job > > > > *It's the President's job to exude confidence, earned or otherwise. * > Churchill didn't deny reality but he gave his nation confidence nevertheless, he said "*I** have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat*.? And even after a victorious battle he knew the war was far from over so he told the truth , "*this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning*". But at a time when aggressive action could have saved thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of American lives Trump was saying Covid-19 is "*The Democrats new Hoax*" at his WrestleMania type crown while thousands of members of the Trump Cult cheered mindlessly. *> It's what Trump's done his entire life, what he was hired for, and > frankly, he isn't much good at anything else.* > All Presidents lie from time to time but for Trump lying is like breathing, it's all he does. But despite all that practice Trump still isn't a very good liar, he doesn't even try to make them sound believable. After doing nothing and denying the reality of the virus danger for over 2 months yesterday he claimed to have been saying it was a dangerous global pandemic before anyone else. But even such transparent lies will not be enough to deprogram members of the Trump Cult, some mind viruses are even harder to kill than COVID-19. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 12:07:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:07:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 5:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is my understanding that your body kills a virus or the virus kills > your body. There is only symptomatic treatment, right? So just how is > corona going to overwhelm our health system? People will seek treatment > There is no direct treatment for the virus itself but you can treat the symptoms and keep the person alive long enough for their immune system to kill the virus. But to do that you need ventilators because you can't live for long if you can't breathe. Even without financial assistance from the Federal Government, or organizational help, or even moral support, Elon Musk offered to start making ventilators. Musk is rich but I don't know how many ventilators he can make before he goes broke. If the government had issued a contract to Musk in January his factories would be churning out ventilators right now, but in January Trump was insisting the virus was just a Democratic Hoax. Musk said: *"Tesla makes cars with sophisticated heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems. SpaceX makes spacecraft with life support systems. Ventilators are not difficult, but cannot be produced instantly." * Elon Musk offers to make ventilators for coronavirus patients John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 12:41:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:41:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fox host demands REPUBLICAN Senator's resignation ON AIR Message-ID: Fox host demands REPUBLICAN Senator's resignation ON AIR John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 12:51:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:51:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <20200319161954.Horde.x19PrQy9A53acNPzbMbTkfk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200319161954.Horde.x19PrQy9A53acNPzbMbTkfk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:46 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> there is nothing ordinary about flu viruses. Their ability to recreate > themselves year after year to get past your immune system is ingenious. In > any case, SARS-CoV-2 has no such ability.* That is indeed encouraging, it makes me think developing a vaccine *might* not be too difficult, although we'd have to be very lucky to have one in less than a year. Let's just hope it's like the flu and goes dormant during the summer months. By the way, I wish scientists would decide what to call this damn thing, whatever happened to COVID-19? And "SARS-CoV-2" is quite a mouthful. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 12:57:27 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:57:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <20200319161954.Horde.x19PrQy9A53acNPzbMbTkfk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Wu Flu or Kung Flu roll off the tongue easier... On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:52 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > By the way, I wish scientists would decide what to call this damn thing, > whatever happened to COVID-19? And "SARS-CoV-2" is quite a mouthful. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 12:57:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 07:57:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No aspirin. Well, the fever is what the body does to kill germs, so lowering a fever is really not a good idea anyway, right? It's just for comfort, until it goes to high, over 103 I think. On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:50 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 5:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It is my understanding that your body kills a virus or the virus kills >> your body. There is only symptomatic treatment, right? >> >> So just how is corona going to overwhelm our health system? People will >> seek treatment but there isn't any - stay home and don't infect others. >> >> Plenty of fluids; aspirin for fever; supplemental oxygen for severe >> cases. What else? >> >> Who knows? >> >> > ### NO ASPIRIN!!!!!! > > This is medical advice from me, a physician licensed in the states of > Virginia and North Carolina - DO NOT self-administer ASPIRIN, IBUPROFEN, > NAPROXEN and other similar medications if you suspect you have the Wuhan > virus. These medications may be associated with increased mortality in this > disease. > > Consult with your physician for suspected infection. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 13:12:32 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 09:12:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Acetaminophen should be alright in this scenario (although to be clear I'm not a doc). There are understandable reasons why NSAIDs might be having a negative effect in terms of the virus, but acetaminophen does not share the same mechanism of action and should be fine as a fever reducer. On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > No aspirin. Well, the fever is what the body does to kill germs, so > lowering a fever is really not a good idea anyway, right? It's just for > comfort, until it goes to high, over 103 I think. > > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:50 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 5:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> It is my understanding that your body kills a virus or the virus kills >>> your body. There is only symptomatic treatment, right? >>> >>> So just how is corona going to overwhelm our health system? People will >>> seek treatment but there isn't any - stay home and don't infect others. >>> >>> Plenty of fluids; aspirin for fever; supplemental oxygen for severe >>> cases. What else? >>> >>> Who knows? >>> >>> >> ### NO ASPIRIN!!!!!! >> >> This is medical advice from me, a physician licensed in the states of >> Virginia and North Carolina - DO NOT self-administer ASPIRIN, IBUPROFEN, >> NAPROXEN and other similar medications if you suspect you have the Wuhan >> virus. These medications may be associated with increased mortality in this >> disease. >> >> Consult with your physician for suspected infection. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 13:30:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 06:30:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Even without financial assistance from the Federal Government, or organizational help, or even moral support, Elon Musk offered to start making ventilators? There ya go, rich people are our friends. >? Musk is rich but I don't know how many ventilators he can make before he goes broke? Can?t he sell them? >? If the government had issued a contract to Musk in January his factories would be churning out ventilators right now? The government is already broke. Musk is not. Rich people are our friends. >? but in January Trump ?John K Clark John everything you write has become merely a preamble to your endless tedious campaigning. It is time to stop campaigning. It causes us to discount the rest of your commentary. Good point however on rich people carrying the ball when it comes to figuring out ways to manufacture the stuff we need in an emergency. They can move faster than government and have more resources ready to focus on the problem. This gives us reason to protect and nurture rich people instead of disparaging them at every opportunity. They may save our lives. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 13:32:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 06:32:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fox host demands REPUBLICAN Senator's resignation ON AIR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009601d5febc$0e008700$2a019500$@rainier66.com> John I wouldn?t have thought of you as a FoxNew watcher. Do let us discontinue the campaigning now please. Or start a subgroup and ask who would like to join that. We used to form those groups a lot in the olden days. Anyone wish to join John?s campaigning group please? Post him offline. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, March 20, 2020 5:42 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: [ExI] Fox host demands REPUBLICAN Senator's resignation ON AIR Fox host demands REPUBLICAN Senator's resignation ON AIR John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 14:07:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 07:07:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002301d5fec0$dbc19310$9344b930$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?There ya go, rich people are our friends. >>? Musk is rich but I don't know how many ventilators he can make before he goes broke? >?Can?t he sell them? spike Ventilators would be worth a cool fortune. The profits from that line of business could keep the Tesla factory open. Hey cool, Musk could integrate a ventilator into the Tesla. The power source is already right there. Then you can keep the patient alive while you drive him to the hospital. Rig up an airtight barrier going lengthwise in the car. Then go to the hospital parking lot where patients are gasping and wheezing, take the richest ones for a life-saving ride. While out, get them to agree to fund an Uber-air car, assuming they survive, so others may live too. Oh better idea: the Tesla cars already kinda drive themselves, so you wouldn?t really need a separate air-handling system or a driver in a haz-mat suit. We could load the wheezing prole into the passenger side, let the car go off on its own to remote locations to reduce the risk of spreading the virus. Self-driving ambulances, based on Tesla cars, which already have a lot of the computers and stuff they need, in a kind of mechanical version of evolutionary pre-adaptation. We could have cameras in there so that doctors could watch the patients, and a screen where they can talk to them, cheer them on, perhaps play the videos historic football games, that sorta thing. We could have medics in haz-mat suits who do stay at the hospital and work a drive-thru window where they make the rounds of the patients by staying in place and having the patients make the rounds in a loop. They wouldn?t need to go fast, and they would be relatively safe: the other proles would see a patient in the passenger side and no one driving, they would switch lanes and give it plenty of space. If Rafal or anyone knows approximately what is required to set up a ventilator and those other machines we see on ER that go bip bip bip and the drippy bags and all that, along with whatever else is required, we might be able to estimate what it would cost to set up something like that, and how much money we could make off of it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 14:55:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 07:55:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: <002301d5fec0$dbc19310$9344b930$@rainier66.com> References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> <002301d5fec0$dbc19310$9344b930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004e01d5fec7$a4432af0$ecc980d0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?We could have cameras in there so that doctors could watch the patients, and a screen where they can talk to them, cheer them on? medics in haz-mat suits who do stay at the hospital and work a drive-thru window where they make the rounds of the patients by staying in place and having the patients make the rounds in a loop. They wouldn?t need to go fast?spike I can expand on this idea. Stanford campus is closed down, so all that parking is available. Google has developed a car which not only drives itself, it has no steering wheel. This is perfect, a pre-adaptation for these rolling hospital rooms I have in mind. Prole calls doctor, describes what sounds like 19 (what an unfortunate number is 19 to become a nickname for Covid-19) hazmat suited locals go over, arrive as the self-driving ambulance gets there, loads prole and attaches blood oxygen monitors, the bip bip bip thing, the drippy bags and such stuff as one gets in the ER, he gently rolls on over to the hospital at a leisurely pace (the current generation of self-drivers cannot go very fast (nor would they need to.)) The medics watch his blood oxygen level, pulse and so on without every removing him from the self-driving ambulance. Fluids: they give him this or that thru the IV with a number of medications available which can be administered by remote switch like those things they have in a bar with a trigger for cola, a trigger for 7-up and so forth. The doctor could stay safely back at the hospital, or at home for that matter, take care of a bunch of patients very efficiently without risk to the other patients. The parking lot at Stanford could be a good place to park the patients, in kind of a modern version of that hospital scene after the battle in Gone With the Wind, but where most of the patients live. That whole system could be made way cheaper than hospital rooms, and we could slam them together in short order methinks, way faster than building new hospitals. After the patient recovers or doesn?t, he is removed by haz-mat suited medics or (we hope) exits under his own power, the thing rolls into a Lysol version of a steam room, disinfected, off ya go to collect the next customer. We can do this. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 15:01:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:01:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:33 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >? If the government had issued a contract to Musk in January his >> factories would be churning out ventilators right now? > > > > *The government is already broke.* > *OH FOR GOD'S SAKE!* John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 15:12:36 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:12:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? If the government had issued a contract to Musk in January his factories would be churning out ventilators right now? The government is already broke. OH FOR GOD'S SAKE! John K Clark John the evangelistic efforts should be taken to a religion subgroup discussion, or combined with your campaigning subgroup please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 15:18:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:18:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >>>>? If the government had issued a contract to Musk in January his > factories would be churning out ventilators right now? > > > > *>>>The government is already broke.* > > > > *>>OH FOR GOD'S SAKE!* > > > > *> John the evangelistic efforts should be taken to a religion subgroup > discussion,* > Yeah Spike you made that same joke before. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 15:20:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:20:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <20200319162237.Horde.cI6c6YMMNkaK6SZge_W-TeB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200319162237.Horde.cI6c6YMMNkaK6SZge_W-TeB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:05 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> For as much fear as it generates, COVID-19 pales in comparison to > the likes of smallpox or the measles which are far more communicable > and deadly both. * Measles is super contagious, a single virus of it can remain active and float in the air for days, fortunately COVID-19 is not like that, it needs a small globule of water to live in and after a few minutes the globule will fall to the ground. But we have a vaccine for measles and smallpox but not for COVID-19. Stay Healthy John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 15:22:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:22:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007d01d5fecb$5b225310$1166f930$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Friday, March 20, 2020 8:13 AM Subject: RE: [ExI] viruses From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? If the government had issued a contract to Musk in January his factories would be churning out ventilators right now? The government is already broke. >>?OH FOR GOD'S SAKE! John K Clark >?John the evangelistic efforts should be taken to a religion subgroup discussion, or combined with your campaigning subgroup please. Spike John as a gesture of good will, I propose that if you start subgroup discussions offlist for campaigning and religion, I will join both. Billw is a good sport, so he might come along. That has to be more interesting than books about? cod? which the other prisoners stuck him with after he ratted out Mugsy. You already have an audience of two. It is time to stop campaigning for bigger government and higher powers. It?s not what this list is about John. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 15:31:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:31:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008b01d5fecc$a3328c00$e997a400$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] viruses On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>>>? If the government had issued a contract to Musk in January his factories would be churning out ventilators right now? >>>The government is already broke. >>OH FOR GOD'S SAKE! > John the evangelistic efforts should be taken to a religion subgroup discussion, Yeah Spike you made that same joke before. John K Clark Ja, perhaps in response to a similar comment you made regarding the sake of a deity. Let it go John. Start a subgroup. BillW might come, I will come. Let?s stop spamming the ExI list with this endless campaigning. We have long since recognized that you have at least a mild disdain for the current president whose name escapes me at the moment. But everything isn?t politics and government is not god. It isn?t clear that god is god. This is up to humans to solve on our own, without higher power, supernatural or political. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 15:40:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:40:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Death Rate in Wuhan Is Lower than Previously Thought Message-ID: It had been thought that the Death rate for COVID-19 was between 2% and 3.4% but now that we have better data from Wuhan where it all started it looks like it's 1.4%. That's a lot better but still bad, seasonal flu is just 0.1% and it kills tens of thousands of Americans every year. Coronavirus Death Rate in Wuhan Is Lower than Previously Thought John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 15:46:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:46:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <005401d5fe70$392620d0$ab726270$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d5fe56$462a2f70$d27e8e50$@rainier66.com> <005401d5fe70$392620d0$ab726270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There are many problems with standardized testing, not the least of which is that many people don't agree with the contents. Another is that the test gets out and so you have to make a new one frequently. Adrian had some excellent ideas on how to stop cheating, but I think meeting with a proctor is all I would accept as valid. If a person applies to , say, Boeing, would Boeing accept their credentials or would they administer a test of their own to find out the abilities of the candidate? Some schools are getting a bit wary. It used to be that taking the law exam and passing it was good enough to get certified as a lawyer. Not here. Legislature passed a law saying that you had to have a law degree from some college. Abe LIncoln would not have made it that way, as he was too poor to afford college. Traditional colleges are going to be, are in, a big fight to stay alive. What are the technical colleges going to do if you can 'learn it just any way', take a standardized test, and get a degree and get hired? I am assuming that there is plenty online to help a student understand some math or engineering concept - he doesn't need to go to a sit-down classroom to get help - mostly unpaid help. Paid tutors are available now I think, online. bill w On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *Subject:* > Re: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > If anyone knows: when taking courses online, how do they determine if the > person taking the courses takes the tests? How do you prevent cheating of > various kinds? I have no idea. > > > > bill w > > > > > > They don?t. But your question gives me an idea. > > > > To get credentials, one would need to sit for proctored tests in a > controlled environment. A student could learn the material any way > available. BillW since you are in the education field, do think this over: > what if? the mainstream-ey classes could have standardized testing. We > have the SAT and GRE, such as that. We could have a standardized test for > thermodynamics, for machine design, for structures, for vibration analysis, > all of it. > > > > Note that my area is engineering, which is an objective area of learning. > The idea formulating in my mind is only applicable to objective fields of > study. I have no idea how psychology classes would work, or literature or > anything that requires classes to discuss stuff. With engineering, math, > physics, my world, the material can be learned any which way and > credentials could be issued based on standardized testing. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 15:57:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:57:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: <008b01d5fecc$a3328c00$e997a400$@rainier66.com> References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> <008b01d5fecc$a3328c00$e997a400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I will at least read everything that anyone on this list writes about. I might even reply to some. But just bashing Trump and moaning about the national debt is going to put me sleep. bill w On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 10:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] viruses > > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > >>>>? If the government had issued a contract to Musk in January his > factories would be churning out ventilators right now? > > > > *>>>**The government is already broke.* > > > > *>>**OH FOR GOD'S SAKE!* > > > > *> **John the evangelistic efforts should be taken to a religion subgroup > discussion,* > > > > Yeah Spike you made that same joke before. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > Ja, perhaps in response to a similar comment you made regarding the sake > of a deity. > > > > Let it go John. Start a subgroup. BillW might come, I will come. Let?s > stop spamming the ExI list with this endless campaigning. We have long > since recognized that you have at least a mild disdain for the current > president whose name escapes me at the moment. But everything isn?t > politics and government is not god. It isn?t clear that god is god. This > is up to humans to solve on our own, without higher power, supernatural or > political. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 16:23:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 09:23:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> <008b01d5fecc$a3328c00$e997a400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002701d5fed3$f5be1f50$e13a5df0$@rainier66.com> >> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] viruses >? But just bashing Trump and moaning about the national debt is going to put me sleep. bill w This is from the guy who managed to stay awake reading a book about? cod. After that cruel and unusual punishment, the parole board saw that he was unresponsive, blank stare, pathetic lad, clearly in urgent need of intellectual stimulation. They decided he was no longer a threat to society, and offered him parole. That should tell us something. Subgroup please with the political campaigning and evangelism. I will come. I will bring my favorite cod book. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 16:27:53 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:27:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <20200319161954.Horde.x19PrQy9A53acNPzbMbTkfk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <6E61DD7D-19F3-498D-8E8A-8C8D244661A9@gmail.com> SARS-CoV-2 is the name of the little virus. COVID-19 is the name of the big illness it causes. Just like how HIV causes AIDS. SR Ballard > On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:51 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:46 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > there is nothing ordinary about flu viruses. Their ability to recreate themselves year after year to get past your immune system is ingenious. In any case, SARS-CoV-2 has no such ability. > > That is indeed encouraging, it makes me think developing a vaccine *might* not be too difficult, although we'd have to be very lucky to have one in less than a year. Let's just hope it's like the flu and goes dormant during the summer months. > > By the way, I wish scientists would decide what to call this damn thing, whatever happened to COVID-19? And "SARS-CoV-2" is quite a mouthful. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 16:57:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:57:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: <002701d5fed3$f5be1f50$e13a5df0$@rainier66.com> References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> <008b01d5fecc$a3328c00$e997a400$@rainier66.com> <002701d5fed3$f5be1f50$e13a5df0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Judge not that ye be not judged! The cod book was very interesting, though not as much as the one on dust. The one on a man named Birdseye was really great. Some of these nonfiction writers can really tell a story. I notice that you don't share your reading pleasure with us, Spike, nor most of you. Are you depriving me of great books to read? Shame, shame. I show you mine - you show me yours. bill w On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *>*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] viruses > > > > >? But just bashing Trump and moaning about the national debt is going to > put me sleep. bill w > > > > > > This is from the guy who managed to stay awake reading a book about? cod. > After that cruel and unusual punishment, the parole board saw that he was > unresponsive, blank stare, pathetic lad, clearly in urgent need of > intellectual stimulation. They decided he was no longer a threat to > society, and offered him parole. > > > > That should tell us something. Subgroup please with the political > campaigning and evangelism. I will come. I will bring my favorite cod > book. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 17:01:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:01:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <6E61DD7D-19F3-498D-8E8A-8C8D244661A9@gmail.com> References: <20200319161954.Horde.x19PrQy9A53acNPzbMbTkfk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <6E61DD7D-19F3-498D-8E8A-8C8D244661A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: SR Ballard - I think the way it goes is that is something (Auto Immune Deficiency Syndrome) is called a syndrome (a group of symptoms) then the cause or causes is unknown. Then when the causes are discovered it is no longer called a syndrome - HIV infection. bill w On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:32 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > SARS-CoV-2 is the name of the little virus. > COVID-19 is the name of the big illness it causes. > > Just like how HIV causes AIDS. > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 20, 2020, at 7:51 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:46 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> there is nothing ordinary about flu viruses. Their ability to recreate >> themselves year after year to get past your immune system is ingenious. In >> any case, SARS-CoV-2 has no such ability.* > > > That is indeed encouraging, it makes me think developing a vaccine *might* > not be too difficult, although we'd have to be very lucky to have one in > less than a year. Let's just hope it's like the flu and goes dormant during > the summer months. > > By the way, I wish scientists would decide what to call this damn thing, > whatever happened to COVID-19? And "SARS-CoV-2" is quite a mouthful. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 17:37:36 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:37:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99A598F4-7C6A-41A1-B3B9-54863CBFC9F2@gmail.com> AIDS stands for _acquired_ immunodeficiency syndrome. In other words, it?s an auto-immune thing. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 20, 2020, at 10:06 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > SR Ballard - I think the way it goes is that is something (Auto Immune Deficiency Syndrome) is called a syndrome (a group of symptoms) then the cause or causes is unknown. Then when the causes are discovered it is no longer called a syndrome - HIV infection. bill w > >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:32 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> SARS-CoV-2 is the name of the little virus. >> COVID-19 is the name of the big illness it causes. >> >> Just like how HIV causes AIDS. >> >> SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Mar 20 17:48:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:48:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> <008b01d5fecc$a3328c00$e997a400$@rainier66.com> <002701d5fed3$f5be1f50$e13a5df0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b201d5fedf$bdbf4a50$393ddef0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat> Subject: Re: [ExI] viruses >?Judge not that ye be not judged! BillW, that?s exactly what I kept telling them! After our discussion on the Arrogance Olympics, we went to set up the competition. Unlike the objective games such as running or pole vault, arrogance requires judges who hold up those cards with 6s and 7s and such. But of course judges are those who are themselves experts in the sport, former competitors themselves, so they are well-qualified to know how difficult are the stunts and how well executed. So? the judges themselves must be competitive arrogantists. This presented an obvious problem, for when we attempted to convene a panel of judges, others would make comments such as ?That guy sucks, I am WAAAY arroganter than he is? and such as that, which ordinarily would be dismissed, but stating it lends credibility to the claim, so the panel of judges continued to grow until someone made the obvious suggestion: we have an arrogance contest to see who gets to judge the arrogance contest. That too needed a panel of judges. And so on. Every time we did manage to assemble a panel of judges, I looked at them and opined that I was arroganter than all of them combined, and we still didn?t have John among us, so none of us had a legitimate claim. The next suggestion suggested itself: can an arrogance judge also be one of the competitors? Sure why not, they will of course give themselves a 10 and all the others 1s, so the outcome is somewhat predictable: an all-way tie for the silver. Eventually of course someone will comment ?Judge not, lest ye be judged!? at which time we know that guy is a humble piker in the sport of arrogance and that guy is crushed, out of the competition, as the others ridicule him by doing the whole Krazy Guggenheim ?ye ye ye? business. He goes over and tries his luck at the Humility Olympics. >?The cod book was very interesting? Give it up pal, we ain?t readin it. Life sentence, we still ain?t reading about cod. >?though not as much as the one on dust? bill w At the expense of my silver medal, I will humbly yield on that point. Dust is interesting. You may have seen a sunbeam streaming thru the window and noticed all the junk floating around in the air, piquing curiosity if one is me. One asks oneself: what the hell is that junk exactly? I have some theories based on my best effort with my microscope: most of it appears to be cotton lint from the clothing aaaaaand? toilet paper debris! I did some experiments and found the soft TP makes waaaay more dust than the strong. So I switched over, being a tough old asshole, in order to reduce ?dust? which apparently isn?t even dust at all. More later, someone walked past on the sidewalk, gotta wash. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Mar 20 17:50:30 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:50:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> ?Smart???? Did I really hear Dr. Smigrodzki call Trump smart?! Rafal, you are way too smart to really believe that, political leanings aside. Trump barely made it through secondary school as I understand it. And his decisions since being president would seem to contradict your assertion. Even if you meant ?relatively smart?, I wouldn?t concede that. Relative to who, I?d have to ask. Maybe some of his uneducated supporters who think he has their interests at heart and that he?s just like them. Barely though. -Henry > On Mar 18, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?...Trump is still of the same social class as them - rich, smart, clearly belongs to the social circle that includes the Clintons, Epsteins and other Democrat celebrities, as From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 18:19:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:19:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] viruses In-Reply-To: <00b201d5fedf$bdbf4a50$393ddef0$@rainier66.com> References: <008f01d5febb$b8bf4560$2a3dd020$@rainier66.com> <006501d5fec9$fd7718a0$f86549e0$@rainier66.com> <008b01d5fecc$a3328c00$e997a400$@rainier66.com> <002701d5fed3$f5be1f50$e13a5df0$@rainier66.com> <00b201d5fedf$bdbf4a50$393ddef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I would be so sure that I would win an arrogance contest, I would not enter it. Just a few years ago I was singing in a college choir. They needed a solo sung and some guys were trying out. I was asked why I didn't try, and I said that I did not want to humiliate everyone. True story. Let them have a turn - I've had plenty. I also would win any loud voice contest. One time two of us sang the same solo together in rehearsal. It was reported that no one heard the other guy. Yeah, it was really loud. You are getting quite a bit of dust/pollution from China. It can actually go around the world, though I don't know how they know that. Do they ride alongside in a balloon following some they can identify? How do they put tags on dust particles? Wouldn't the dust go faster than the balloon? When I was in college, a Baptist school, one of the missionary students put on a protest over the toilet paper in the dorms. It was actually so slick it slid right off. They did buy some better tp. Had I known I might have been successful I would have protested for bidets in dorms. I am a two sheet man myself. My wife rolls it off until she cannot see her hand (not validated by observation). bill w. On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 12:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat> > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] viruses > > > > >?Judge not that ye be not judged! > > > > BillW, that?s exactly what I kept telling them! After our discussion on > the Arrogance Olympics, we went to set up the competition. Unlike the > objective games such as running or pole vault, arrogance requires judges > who hold up those cards with 6s and 7s and such. But of course judges are > those who are themselves experts in the sport, former competitors > themselves, so they are well-qualified to know how difficult are the stunts > and how well executed. So? the judges themselves must be competitive > arrogantists. > > > > This presented an obvious problem, for when we attempted to convene a > panel of judges, others would make comments such as ?That guy sucks, I am > WAAAY arroganter than he is? and such as that, which ordinarily would be > dismissed, but stating it lends credibility to the claim, so the panel of > judges continued to grow until someone made the obvious suggestion: we have > an arrogance contest to see who gets to judge the arrogance contest. That > too needed a panel of judges. And so on. > > > > Every time we did manage to assemble a panel of judges, I looked at them > and opined that I was arroganter than all of them combined, and we still > didn?t have John among us, so none of us had a legitimate claim. > > > > The next suggestion suggested itself: can an arrogance judge also be one > of the competitors? Sure why not, they will of course give themselves a 10 > and all the others 1s, so the outcome is somewhat predictable: an all-way > tie for the silver. > > > > Eventually of course someone will comment ?Judge not, lest ye be judged!? > at which time we know that guy is a humble piker in the sport of arrogance > and that guy is crushed, out of the competition, as the others ridicule him > by doing the whole Krazy Guggenheim ?ye ye ye? business. He goes over and > tries his luck at the Humility Olympics. > > > > >?The cod book was very interesting? > > > > Give it up pal, we ain?t readin it. Life sentence, we still ain?t reading > about cod. > > > > >?though not as much as the one on dust? bill w > > > > At the expense of my silver medal, I will humbly yield on that point. > Dust is interesting. > > > > You may have seen a sunbeam streaming thru the window and noticed all the > junk floating around in the air, piquing curiosity if one is me. One asks > oneself: what the hell is that junk exactly? I have some theories based on > my best effort with my microscope: most of it appears to be cotton lint > from the clothing aaaaaand? toilet paper debris! > > > > I did some experiments and found the soft TP makes waaaay more dust than > the strong. So I switched over, being a tough old asshole, in order to > reduce ?dust? which apparently isn?t even dust at all. > > > > More later, someone walked past on the sidewalk, gotta wash. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 18:33:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 14:33:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?The_next_outbreak=3F_We=E2=80=99re_not_ready_=7C?= =?utf-8?q?_Bill_Gates?= Message-ID: Bill Gates gave a TED talk back in 2015 that really seems prophetic today. I think he'd be a good president. The next outbreak? We?re not ready | Bill Gates John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 19:05:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 14:05:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote for the day Message-ID: Especially for us older folks: Edith Wharton once said*: ?In spite of illness, in spite even of the arch-enemy, sorrow, one can remain alive long past the usual date of disintegration if one is unafraid of change, insatiable in intellectual curiosity, interested in big things, and happy in small ways.?* *bill w* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 19:25:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 14:25:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the latest dance craze Message-ID: scroll down https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318966#What-is-white-matter? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 20:27:27 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:27:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <99A598F4-7C6A-41A1-B3B9-54863CBFC9F2@gmail.com> References: <99A598F4-7C6A-41A1-B3B9-54863CBFC9F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7FA4FD65-59A8-4558-B19B-4A739F474418@gmail.com> I think you?re missing my point. Sars-cov-2 is the name of the actual virus. ?severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)? that is S-evere A-cute R-espriratoy S-yndrom CO-rona-V-irus #2 Covid-19 is the illness it produces. ?coronavirus disease (COVID-19)? that is ?CO-rona-VI-rus D-isease 20-19? You can resent it all you want but it?s a fact. SOURCE: WHO ? https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/technical-guidance/naming-the-coronavirus-disease-(covid-2019)-and-the-virus-that-causes-it > On Mar 20, 2020, at 12:37 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > AIDS stands for _acquired_ immunodeficiency syndrome. In other words, it?s an auto-immune thing. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > http://author.to/DanUst > >> On Mar 20, 2020, at 10:06 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> ? >> SR Ballard - I think the way it goes is that is something (Auto Immune Deficiency Syndrome) is called a syndrome (a group of symptoms) then the cause or causes is unknown. Then when the causes are discovered it is no longer called a syndrome - HIV infection. bill w >> >>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:32 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>> SARS-CoV-2 is the name of the little virus. >>> COVID-19 is the name of the big illness it causes. >>> >>> Just like how HIV causes AIDS. >>> >>> SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 22:51:22 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:51:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <7FA4FD65-59A8-4558-B19B-4A739F474418@gmail.com> References: <7FA4FD65-59A8-4558-B19B-4A739F474418@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E9AF801-8126-44AF-9CB6-D9B6FE44CA82@gmail.com> Who are you responding to here? I believe you meant to respond to Bill W and not me. I was merely trying to give the correct meaning of AIDS, which is not, to my knowledge, an auto-immune disease. In fact, it?s the opposite of that; it?s an acquired immune disease. (Or syndrome.;) I wasn?t weighing in on the current pandemic, though for the record, I side with you on that, FWIW. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 20, 2020, at 1:30 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?I think you?re missing my point. > > Sars-cov-2 is the name of the actual virus. > ?severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)? that is S-evere A-cute R-espriratoy S-yndrom CO-rona-V-irus #2 > > Covid-19 is the illness it produces. > ?coronavirus disease (COVID-19)? that is ?CO-rona-VI-rus D-isease 20-19? > > You can resent it all you want but it?s a fact. > > SOURCE: WHO ? https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/technical-guidance/naming-the-coronavirus-disease-(covid-2019)-and-the-virus-that-causes-it > >> On Mar 20, 2020, at 12:37 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> AIDS stands for _acquired_ immunodeficiency syndrome. In other words, it?s an auto-immune thing. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books at: >> http://author.to/DanUst >> >>>> On Mar 20, 2020, at 10:06 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> ? >>> SR Ballard - I think the way it goes is that is something (Auto Immune Deficiency Syndrome) is called a syndrome (a group of symptoms) then the cause or causes is unknown. Then when the causes are discovered it is no longer called a syndrome - HIV infection. bill w >>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:32 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> SARS-CoV-2 is the name of the little virus. >>>> COVID-19 is the name of the big illness it causes. >>>> >>>> Just like how HIV causes AIDS. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 00:23:29 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:23:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:50 PM Henry Rivera wrote: > ?Smart???? Did I really hear Dr. Smigrodzki call Trump smart?! > Rafal, you are way too smart to really believe that, political leanings > aside. Trump barely made it through secondary school as I understand it. > And his decisions since being president would seem to contradict your > assertion. Even if you meant ?relatively smart?, I wouldn?t concede that. > Relative to who, I?d have to ask. Maybe some of his uneducated supporters > who think he has their interests at heart and that he?s just like them. > Barely though. ### Definitely smarter than Obama. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 00:27:07 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:27:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] social distancing, was: RE: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <99A598F4-7C6A-41A1-B3B9-54863CBFC9F2@gmail.com> References: <99A598F4-7C6A-41A1-B3B9-54863CBFC9F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:39 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > AIDS stands for _acquired_ immunodeficiency syndrome. In other words, it?s > an auto-immune thing. > ### No, AIDS is not an autoimmune process. It's a immune deficiency as you noted above, not an immune attack on self. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 00:54:38 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 19:54:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: ### Definitely smarter than Obama. Rafal You think Obama made editor of the Law Review at Harvard because he was black, not smart? bill w On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 7:25 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:50 PM Henry Rivera > wrote: > >> ?Smart???? Did I really hear Dr. Smigrodzki call Trump smart?! >> Rafal, you are way too smart to really believe that, political leanings >> aside. Trump barely made it through secondary school as I understand it. >> And his decisions since being president would seem to contradict your >> assertion. Even if you meant ?relatively smart?, I wouldn?t concede that. >> Relative to who, I?d have to ask. Maybe some of his uneducated supporters >> who think he has their interests at heart and that he?s just like them. >> Barely though. > > > ### Definitely smarter than Obama. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:01:24 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:01:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: <4ec1eab9-7232-cbdc-0267-fbe32c065211@zaiboc.net> References: <4ec1eab9-7232-cbdc-0267-fbe32c065211@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 2:49 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > If you know of any groups of atheists that behave like terrorists *because > of their atheism*, I'd like to read about it. > > I'm sure there are groups of people who behave like terrorists and also > happen to be atheists. > ### Russian and Chinese communists terrorized Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, destroyed churches, shrines, mosques and slaughtered priests because they believed the future must be atheist. One could argue that communists were evil and did evil things because of being evil but that's missing the point. Communists are evil totalitarian atheists and they do their specific evil things, rather any of an infinity of alternative evil things, because of being evil, because of being totalitarian *and* because of being atheist. They did evil because they are evil but they specifically victimized religious people because they were atheist. I have no problem admitting that atheism can be an inspiration to do evil things. People do all kinds of things, good and bad, for all kinds of reasons, both true and imaginary. Atheism is correct where religions are not but that does not mean that atheism can only lead to good behavior. I think it is quite plausible that religions that promise punishment in the afterlife for misdeeds while alive in fact do deter some believers from wrong behavior, which is another way of saying that lack of religion is a cause of some transgressions. Of course, since I know with a high degree of certainty that the average religion is incorrect, I am incapable of acquiring religious faith, even if I thought religion was a net good but that's a different story. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:10:40 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:10:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:54 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > ### Definitely smarter than Obama. > > Rafal > You think Obama made editor of the Law Review at Harvard because he was > black, not smart? bill w > ### Did I say Obama is not smart? Still, since the intellectual gap between black and other Harvard students is in the range of 200 to 400 SAT points, it's a reasonable conclusion he benefited from racial discrimination against his competitors, unless proven otherwise. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:13:27 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:13:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: <4ec1eab9-7232-cbdc-0267-fbe32c065211@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: They did evil because they are evil but they specifically victimized religious people because they were atheist. rafal I think they, the Chinese communists, don't care about religion one way or another. What they care about is competition. They don't want people following religious leaders who may preach that the Chinese government is wrong about anything, which of course they do, because the religious leaders have to be against atheism (and a lot more). Which is to say that I don't believe that their atheism is a factor at all. They would act the same if a secular organization did the same things as the religions do. It's dissent and competition that are the factors - not religion. You are imagining that fundamentalist atheists act the same as fundamentalist religious people, and I don't agree with that. Of course neither of our opinions is subject to any kind of proof. bill w On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:03 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 2:49 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> If you know of any groups of atheists that behave like terrorists *because >> of their atheism*, I'd like to read about it. >> >> I'm sure there are groups of people who behave like terrorists and also >> happen to be atheists. >> > > ### Russian and Chinese communists terrorized Christians, Buddhists, > Muslims, destroyed churches, shrines, mosques and slaughtered priests > because they believed the future must be atheist. One could argue that > communists were evil and did evil things because of being evil but that's > missing the point. Communists are evil totalitarian atheists and they do > their specific evil things, rather any of an infinity of alternative evil > things, because of being evil, because of being totalitarian *and* because > of being atheist. They did evil because they are evil but they specifically > victimized religious people because they were atheist. > > I have no problem admitting that atheism can be an inspiration to do evil > things. People do all kinds of things, good and bad, for all kinds of > reasons, both true and imaginary. Atheism is correct where religions are > not but that does not mean that atheism can only lead to good behavior. I > think it is quite plausible that religions that promise punishment in the > afterlife for misdeeds while alive in fact do deter some believers from > wrong behavior, which is another way of saying that lack of religion is a > cause of some transgressions. > > Of course, since I know with a high degree of certainty that the average > religion is incorrect, I am incapable of acquiring religious faith, even if > I thought religion was a net good but that's a different story. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:15:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:15:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:12 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:54 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> ### Definitely smarter than Obama. >> >> Rafal >> You think Obama made editor of the Law Review at Harvard because he was >> black, not smart? bill w >> > > ### Did I say Obama is not smart? > > Still, since the intellectual gap between black and other Harvard students > is in the range of 200 to 400 SAT points, it's a reasonable conclusion he > benefited from racial discrimination against his competitors, unless proven > otherwise. > > Rafal > I think without data we should stick to the null hypothesis. Otherwise it IS racism. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:23:44 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:23:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: <47ce14a8-accd-01ca-81c1-219a7db06e62@zaiboc.net> References: <47ce14a8-accd-01ca-81c1-219a7db06e62@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 4:53 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Then you are refusing to see it. The difference is blindingly obvlous. > Religions have rules of behaviour, whole tomes explaining what kind of > behaviour, dress, food, sexual practices, rituals, etc., are required or > allowed (and which ones are 'sinful' and to be discouraged, in oneself and > in others), and often horrifically graphic descriptions of what punishments > await those who break the rules. > > Atheism has none of that. Religions give people *reasons* for being > horrible to others. > ### Turn the other cheek? Love thy neighbor as you love yourself? Thou shalt not kill? ------------------------- > Atheism doesn't. > Nobody is violent, coercive, etc., *because* they are atheists, because > there is a complete absence of those rules of behaviour, no prescriptions, > no concept of 'sin' etc. > ### Well, yes, if you don't believe you will be punished in an afterlife for murdering your neighbor, you may be more inclined to do so, don't you think? ----------------------- > > How can you possibly regard them as symmetric cases? They're as asymmetric > as you can get! > ### Oh, sure atheism and religion are not symmetric, since atheism is true and religion is not. And religion commits many sins, like the jihad and the auto-da-fe. But still, atheism not leavened by humanism commits a sin of omission, it lacks crucial ingredients needed for a society to work well. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:28:28 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:15 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:12 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:54 PM William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> ### Definitely smarter than Obama. >>> >>> Rafal >>> You think Obama made editor of the Law Review at Harvard because he was >>> black, not smart? bill w >>> >> >> ### Did I say Obama is not smart? >> >> Still, since the intellectual gap between black and other Harvard >> students is in the range of 200 to 400 SAT points, it's a reasonable >> conclusion he benefited from racial discrimination against his competitors, >> unless proven otherwise. >> >> Rafal >> > > I think without data we should stick to the null hypothesis. Otherwise it > IS racism. bill w > >> >> ### Discrimination against Asian and White applicants in college admissions is racist. Considering all available information about a person's academic record is Bayesian reasoning. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:36:30 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:36:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: <4ec1eab9-7232-cbdc-0267-fbe32c065211@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:13 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > They would act the same if a secular organization did the same things as > the religions do. > ### They infiltrated and co-opted many secular organizations but they eradicated religious ones. They did not burn universities but they dynamited the Cathedral of Christ the Savior. It took them weeks of hard work to do that, and they were proud of themselves when they finished. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:40:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:40:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Eysenck Message-ID: Have any of you trained in some variety of neuroscience been exposed to the ideas of Hans Eysenck re brain function? A basic idea of his is that introverts have a nervous system tuned to excitation - strong excitation, weak inhibition. Very introverted people are highly sensitive to stimulation and are easily overstimulated. Their drug of choice is downers like alcohol. (I once took a pill containing phenylpropanolamine, marketed as Dexatrim. It was as if my brain went into a seizure of stimulation. Overstimulated does not even begin to define it. Headaches, and misery for two hours. Mild stimulation for extroverts looking for weight loss.) Introverts can tolerate long periods of low stimulation. Extroverts are said to have nervous systems tuned to inhibition, and so have weak excitation. It takes a lot to overstimulate an extrovert. Extroverts are drawn to uppers to overcome the strong inhibition. They do poorly in school sometimes because sitting down and reading a book for a couple of hours is just not enough stimulation. So they turn on the stereo, get on the phone and talk to somebody - gimme stimulation! Solitary confinement should be illegal for these people - will drive them crazy. I am extremely introverted and could drink 18 beers and drive home (long ago), while my companion went to sleep in the car after 6. One student, a girl, said that she passed out after two beers - very extroverted indeed. Cheap date too. (But not much fun unless you are into necrophilia - sorry, cheap joke.) He said that the basis of these ideas was the actions of the RAS - reticular activating system. This system controls the level of stimulation in the cortex. When you are highly alert it is firing all over the cortex getting ready for action. When it is inhibited nearly totally you are asleep. You have to get through it to the cortex to wake up. So the excitation and inhibition above are the result of the actions of the RAS. He took Jung's concept in introversion/extroversion and modified it and hypothesized the physiological ideas above. Any contradictions from your neuroscience knowledge? Heard of Eysenck? He is responsible for two of the Big Five personality factors, I/E and N. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:43:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:43:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: I don't think Obama got elected editor on the basis of admissions tests bill w On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:41 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:15 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:12 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:54 PM William Flynn Wallace < >>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> ### Definitely smarter than Obama. >>>> >>>> Rafal >>>> You think Obama made editor of the Law Review at Harvard because he was >>>> black, not smart? bill w >>>> >>> >>> ### Did I say Obama is not smart? >>> >>> Still, since the intellectual gap between black and other Harvard >>> students is in the range of 200 to 400 SAT points, it's a reasonable >>> conclusion he benefited from racial discrimination against his competitors, >>> unless proven otherwise. >>> >>> Rafal >>> >> >> I think without data we should stick to the null hypothesis. Otherwise >> it IS racism. bill w >> >>> >>> > ### Discrimination against Asian and White applicants in college > admissions is racist. Considering all available information about a > person's academic record is Bayesian reasoning. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:44:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:44:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] sociology In-Reply-To: <005e01d5f56c$19797140$4c6c53c0$@rainier66.com> References: <005e01d5f56c$19797140$4c6c53c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 1:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The instinct view causes me to be sympathetic with gays: somehow their > instincts must be coded into their DNA just as mine were 9 months before I > was born. > > > ### Not necessarily. Homosexuality might be due to pre-natal or even post-natal brain damage, or stochastic processes, rather than an innate mechanism. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:46:58 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:46:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:43 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I don't think Obama got elected editor on the basis of admissions tests > bill w > ### You think that a racist institution that cheats on admission tests just stops being racist when electing editors? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 03:22:27 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:22:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:12 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *>> You think Obama made editor of the Law Review at Harvard because he was >> black, not smart? bill w* > > > ### *Did I say Obama is not smart?Still, since the intellectual gap > between black and other Harvard students is in the range of 200 to 400 SAT > points, it's a reasonable conclusion he benefited from racial > discrimination * > And I'm sure Trump threatened legal action against Fordham University if they ever made public his grades or SAT scores because he is a very modest person and those astronomically high numbers would have just embarrassed the Very Stable Genius. Fordham confirms Trump made threats if his SAT scores or grades became public John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 11:22:54 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 12:22:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I was an young impressionable larvae I read O'Neills book about orbital colonisation and then I wondered about infelicitous problems. Nowhere in that book do they discuss quarantine and infections. How was this question addressed in L5 circles? /Henrik Den fre 20 mars 2020 01:57Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > spike wrote: > > > If covid is with us indefinitely, we will face it again next flu season, > > It won't be. For some countries such as Iran, it will infect most of > the population with a high death toll. China seems to have stopped > it. It is hard to say what the US will be like, but I seriously doubt > it will last a year. > > > Colleges will need to transition to distance learning. > > I doubt it. Somewhere around is an article Freeman Dyson wrote about > his daughter Esther Dyson's time at Harvard. She recognized that who > you know is at least as important as what you know. Few college > students understand that. She did and if you read into her Wikipedia > page you can see what she did with that knowledge. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 11:25:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:25:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:58 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *?Smart???? Did I really hear Dr. Smigrodzki call Trump smart?! * > Trump is so incredibly dumb he won't even tell the truth when the truth would serve his reelection interests better than a lie would. If in early January Trump had told the truth as science best understood it and said I'm sorry to say it but it looks like we're heading toward a horrible tragedy then when the bodies started to stack up like cordwood he'd look wise and prescient; and if it had turned out the expert epidemiologists were wrong and things didn't turn out all that bad then he could claim that thanks to his heroic measures he saved hundreds of thousands or millions of lives. But by continuing to insist until just a few days ago that the virus was just a Democratic hoax and nothing to worry about Trump now looks like the world's biggest horse's ass. And then, as frosting on the low IQ cake, just yesterday Trump claimed he knew COVID-19 would be a global pandemic before anyone else did, and by making that utterance he vividly demonstrated to the entire world that he is not only a world class fool he is also a world class lyer. 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URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 11:39:55 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:39:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 7:26 AM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> When I was an young impressionable larvae I read O'Neills book about > orbital colonisation and then I wondered about infelicitous problems. > Nowhere in that book do they discuss quarantine and infections.* > *How was this question addressed in L5 circles?* > Epidemics would be a very serious problem for a O'Neill space colony but I'm not sure it would be a more serious problem than a Earth town of the same size would have, it might even be less because there would be less physical interaction from the outside world and thus fewer ways a new and deadly virus or bacteria could enter the human ecosystem. On the other hand I don't know how much radiation the colony would receive or how much it would weaken the human immune system. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 11:43:35 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 12:43:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The hatch? ?? On 2020. Mar 21., Sat at 12:24, Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > When I was an young impressionable larvae I read O'Neills book about > orbital colonisation and then I wondered about infelicitous problems. > Nowhere in that book do they discuss quarantine and infections. > How was this question addressed in L5 circles? > > /Henrik > > Den fre 20 mars 2020 01:57Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > >> spike wrote: >> >> > If covid is with us indefinitely, we will face it again next flu season, >> >> It won't be. For some countries such as Iran, it will infect most of >> the population with a high death toll. China seems to have stopped >> it. It is hard to say what the US will be like, but I seriously doubt >> it will last a year. >> >> > Colleges will need to transition to distance learning. >> >> I doubt it. Somewhere around is an article Freeman Dyson wrote about >> his daughter Esther Dyson's time at Harvard. She recognized that who >> you know is at least as important as what you know. Few college >> students understand that. She did and if you read into her Wikipedia >> page you can see what she did with that knowledge. >> >> Keith >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 12:50:05 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:50:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is a rather harsh way of dealing with infections........ Also not good for travel between colonies, which I believe could be a nice feature. /Henrik Den l?r 21 mars 2020 12:50Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > The hatch? ?? > > On 2020. Mar 21., Sat at 12:24, Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> When I was an young impressionable larvae I read O'Neills book about >> orbital colonisation and then I wondered about infelicitous problems. >> Nowhere in that book do they discuss quarantine and infections. >> How was this question addressed in L5 circles? >> >> /Henrik >> >> Den fre 20 mars 2020 01:57Keith Henson via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: >> >>> spike wrote: >>> >>> > If covid is with us indefinitely, we will face it again next flu >>> season, >>> >>> It won't be. For some countries such as Iran, it will infect most of >>> the population with a high death toll. China seems to have stopped >>> it. It is hard to say what the US will be like, but I seriously doubt >>> it will last a year. >>> >>> > Colleges will need to transition to distance learning. >>> >>> I doubt it. Somewhere around is an article Freeman Dyson wrote about >>> his daughter Esther Dyson's time at Harvard. She recognized that who >>> you know is at least as important as what you know. Few college >>> students understand that. She did and if you read into her Wikipedia >>> page you can see what she did with that knowledge. >>> >>> Keith >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 12:57:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:57:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:53 AM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> That is a rather harsh way of dealing with infections........* > Yes, quarantines are harsh, but not as harsh as death. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 13:04:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:04:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: The *Harvard Law Review* is a law review published by an independent student group at Harvard Law School . They presumably don't have access to admissions tests scores and probably would scorn them if they did. Which is not to say that the students can't be biased. That's enough on this topic. bill w On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:21 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:43 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> I don't think Obama got elected editor on the basis of admissions tests >> bill w >> > > ### You think that a racist institution that cheats on admission tests > just stops being racist when electing editors? > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 21 13:11:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 06:11:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <019201d5ff82$3da1c160$b8e54420$@rainier66.com> I propose an end to the campaigning and evangelical efforts please. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 4:25 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:58 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat > wrote: > ?Smart???? Did I really hear Dr. Smigrodzki call Trump smart?! >?Trump is so incredibly dumb he won't even tell the truth ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 13:19:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:19:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: <4ec1eab9-7232-cbdc-0267-fbe32c065211@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:03 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I have no problem admitting that atheism can be an inspiration to do > evil things.* In today's world claiming that atheism is an inspiration to do evil, or to do good, is like claiming that being an anti-viking is an inspiration for doing stuff. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 13:20:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:20:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <019201d5ff82$3da1c160$b8e54420$@rainier66.com> References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> <019201d5ff82$3da1c160$b8e54420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I propose an end to the campaigning and evangelical efforts please. > > > > spike > I agree. John can email me all he wants to. bill w > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 4:25 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* John Clark > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong > > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:58 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?Smart???? Did I really hear Dr. Smigrodzki call Trump smart?! * > > > > >?Trump is so incredibly dumb he won't even tell the truth ? John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 13:29:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:29:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Muslim and Supermuslim: Toward Islamic transhumanism? In-Reply-To: References: <4ec1eab9-7232-cbdc-0267-fbe32c065211@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Have any of you actually done any research on differences between atheists and believers? I have no doubt that you can find plenty. Science came about to shut people up who only relied on their own opinions, based on total speculation and chutzpah. Well? bill w On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:23 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 9:03 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I have no problem admitting that atheism can be an inspiration to do >> evil things.* > > > In today's world claiming that atheism is an inspiration to do evil, or > to do good, is like claiming that being an anti-viking is an inspiration > for doing stuff. > > John K Clark > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 13:38:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:38:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: <019201d5ff82$3da1c160$b8e54420$@rainier66.com> References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> <019201d5ff82$3da1c160$b8e54420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 9:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *I propose an end to the campaigning and evangelical efforts please.* > Because how the most powerful man in the most powerful country in the world is dealing with the worst crisis of the new millennium is too trivial an issue to talk about, and because members of the Trump Cult are so delicate they become permanently traumatized by any criticism of their demigod. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 21 13:45:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 06:45:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> <019201d5ff82$3da1c160$b8e54420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01ca01d5ff87$016f5900$044e0b00$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: I propose an end to the campaigning and evangelical efforts please. spike I agree. John can email me all he wants to. bill w Me too! I will join the ExI-politics subgroup. The rules are different there. Since it is possible to filter one single subject without losing the delightful range of cool stuff posted on ExI, all the usual rules of social propriety are suspended in a subgroup. Those groups are tightly focused on a topic, people can join or not. We have three participants, others might come. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 21 14:12:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:12:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> <019201d5ff82$3da1c160$b8e54420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01e901d5ff8a$d32ae0b0$7980a210$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 6:39 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 9:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > I propose an end to the campaigning and evangelical efforts please. Because how the most powerful man in the most powerful country in the world is dealing with the worst crisis of the new millennium is too trivial an issue to talk about, and because members of the Trump Cult are so delicate they become permanently traumatized by any criticism of their demigod. John K Clark John I propose an immediate end to the evangelism and campaigning. I nominate you as the leader of the campaigning and evangelism group. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 14:16:13 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:16:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> <019201d5ff82$3da1c160$b8e54420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John, we are just sick of it. Totally sick. Full Replete Over everythinged. Unless you agree to being in a subgroup I am going to delete your messages without reading them and I hope everyone will join me. Truly you are obsessed and that is coming from a clinical psychologist. Are you truly accusing anyone here of being in a Trump cult? That is so totally out of contact with reality that I am really beginning to worry about you. Well, no really beginning - that took place quite some time ago. Face it, John, I challenge anyone who wants to read your screeds to say so so that you will see just who wants more of the same from you. You are not saying *anything* that cannot be found all over the internet. bill w On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:49 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 9:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> > *I propose an end to the campaigning and evangelical efforts please.* >> > > Because how the most powerful man in the most powerful country in the > world is dealing with the worst crisis of the new millennium is too trivial > an issue to talk about, and because members of the Trump Cult are so > delicate they become permanently traumatized by any criticism of their > demigod. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 14:52:06 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:52:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:41 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On the other hand I don't know how much radiation the colony would receive > or how much it would weaken the human immune system. > Presumably space habitats would be built with enough radiation shielding to bring total radiation exposure down to approximately Earth surface levels. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 21 15:01:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:01:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000d01d5ff91$aa1373c0$fe3a5b40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] L5 society and infections On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:41 AM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: On the other hand I don't know how much radiation the colony would receive or how much it would weaken the human immune system. >?Presumably space habitats would be built with enough radiation shielding to bring total radiation exposure down to approximately Earth surface levels. That problem turns out to be far more difficult than it sounds. An atmosphere is a great way to filter some kinds of particularly harmful radiation. A sheet of metal creates a bunch of secondary particles when struck by high-energy particles. To filter out the bad stuff requires a lot of material. This makes me think we must have a way to use material already out there, such as from the asteroid belt. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 15:35:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:35:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: <000d01d5ff91$aa1373c0$fe3a5b40$@rainier66.com> References: <000d01d5ff91$aa1373c0$fe3a5b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: To filter out the bad stuff requires a lot of material. This makes me think we must have a way to use material already out there, such as from the asteroid belt. spike You mean drill holes in asteroids like they do in scifi books? And live there? I assume you could find one, tow it somewhere, and mine it while you live in it. bill w On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] L5 society and infections > > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:41 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On the other hand I don't know how much radiation the colony would receive > or how much it would weaken the human immune system. > > > > >?Presumably space habitats would be built with enough radiation shielding > to bring total radiation exposure down to approximately Earth surface > levels. > > > > > > That problem turns out to be far more difficult than it sounds. An > atmosphere is a great way to filter some kinds of particularly harmful > radiation. A sheet of metal creates a bunch of secondary particles when > struck by high-energy particles. To filter out the bad stuff requires a > lot of material. This makes me think we must have a way to use material > already out there, such as from the asteroid belt. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 15:36:03 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 16:36:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Without travel, even expensive, horribly expensive travel you will have instant balkanisation and a lot of "mine not yours" nonsense. Not good for long-term survival in space. /Henrik Den l?r 21 mars 2020 14:01John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:53 AM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> That is a rather harsh way of dealing with infections........* >> > > Yes, quarantines are harsh, but not as harsh as death. > > John K Clark > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 16:32:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:32:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] FW: > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> <019201d5ff82$3da1c160$b8e54420$@rainier66.com> <020901d5ff8f$8cf80b90$a6e822b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:29 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Stay Healthy > > > > John K Clark > > > Unknown reason? Are you completely out of your mind? Trump Trump Trump. > Admit it - you are responsible for people leaving the group who we really > wanted to stay. Do you feel any shame over that? If not, there's another > symptom you have. Admit it - you are telling us NOTHING that cannot be > found all over the web. Common knowledge. We DO NOT want Trump news from > you. Is that clear? You are providing no useful function. NO USEFUL > FUNCTION. You say things that are not news, redundant, superfluous, and > NOT WANTED. If anyone wants John's news, please write him and say so. If > I am wrong I will completely apologize. What you are doing is like groping > a girl who has no interest in you and still you won't stop. Are you > autistic? Lacking in social and emotional intelligence? That would > explain a lot. Maybe then we could find it in our hearts to forgive you. > And you DO need to be forgiven. > > > bill w > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 21 17:04:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:04:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example Message-ID: <006701d5ffa2$d1320a00$73961e00$@rainier66.com> In California we are on shelter-in-place stay-at-home orders from our governor. Although it does not mean we are legally required to stay inside our houses, plenty of the local proletariat firmly believes that is exactly what it means: ?in-place? means indoors. Most scary movies from a long time ago didn?t age well, but some did. I was told that if one suffers from constipation, just view Jack Nicholson?s The Shining, for it would scare it right on outta yas. I never viewed it, but I understand Jack and his small family were snowed in and things went badly. So now? I live in area best described as life in the fast lane. It is not well suited for everything coming to a sudden halt. It doesn?t stop gracefully here. Plenty of us relate or know of this: working in a big company, colleague works long hours, no particular reason really, reaches 65 (or later) and cannot find reassignments within the company. This happens a lot; it is a perfectly legal form of age-discrimination. So the guy retires. A year later you learn he divorced his wife of 40 years. This is a well-known pattern. I don?t ask why, but I would speculate that the marriage worked when the guy was at the office all day and his wife had her own life, but when he is suddenly at home always, the adjustment was too difficult. So they called it a day. There is an added dimension, for now the kids are home too. I am reminded of a line in It?s Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas: Mom and Dad can hardly wait for school to start again? However, school will not start again, until next fall. Perhaps someone who knows can comment on the jarring change suddenly thrust upon us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 17:29:42 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:29:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections In-Reply-To: <000d01d5ff91$aa1373c0$fe3a5b40$@rainier66.com> References: <000d01d5ff91$aa1373c0$fe3a5b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] L5 society and infections > > > Presumably space habitats would be built with enough radiation shielding > to bring total radiation exposure down to approximately Earth surface > levels. > > > > That problem turns out to be far more difficult than it sounds. An > atmosphere is a great way to filter some kinds of particularly harmful > radiation. A sheet of metal creates a bunch of secondary particles when > struck by high-energy particles. To filter out the bad stuff requires a > lot of material. This makes me think we must have a way to use material > already out there, such as from the asteroid belt. > Well yeah, you wouldn't use just a single thin sheet of metal. For instance, you'd put the primary water supply outside the habitable area - but inside the outermost hull, of course - as part of radiation shielding. It does require mass, but having that mass there in the first place is not "difficult", it's just a design constraint. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 21 17:41:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:41:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example Message-ID: <008801d5ffa7$e37d7910$aa786b30$@rainier66.com> Our moderation system isn't working right. I am trying to get that fixed. In the meantime I will forward it thru: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Perhaps someone who knows can comment on the jarring change suddenly thrust upon us. Speaking of jarring change, I don't know if anyone will read this because I'm not sure if I'm still allowed to post to the list but you really should watch not just The Shining but every Stanley Kubrick movie, they range from very good to superb, he is by far my favorite director. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 21 18:03:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:03:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example In-Reply-To: References: <008801d5ffa7$e37d7910$aa786b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a701d5ffab$0ea3e450$2bebacf0$@rainier66.com> Last Sunday somebody asked me a question and I said I didn't want to answer it because the last time I said what I really thought on that subject I almost got kicked off the list, I was told by you that wouldn't happen this time and encouraged to say what I really thought Not at all. The suggestion was made that we do that for a day. It extended to about a week. We have had enough. You said your piece. I propose resetting your moderate flag to off, and return to our regularly-scheduled programming, with the understanding that John, we get it: you don?t care for the current POTUS, whose name escapes me. You don?t need to keep on and on and on with the evangelism or the campaigning. spike From: John Clark Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 10:57 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] shining example Last Sunday somebody asked me a question and I said I didn't want to answer it because the last time I said what I really thought on that subject I almost got kicked off the list, I was told by you that wouldn't happen this time and encouraged to say what I really thought, but now it looks like exactly what I feared would happen did in fact happen. Am I to understand that from now on I must sit at the children's table and everything I write on any subject must first get an OK from moderation, aka you? John K Clark On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Our moderation system isn?t working right. I am trying to get that fixed. In the meantime I will forward it thru: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 1:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Perhaps someone who knows can comment on the jarring change suddenly thrust upon us. Speaking of jarring change, I don't know if anyone will read this because I'm not sure if I'm still allowed to post to the list but you really should watch not just The Shining but every Stanley Kubrick movie, they range from very good to superb, he is by far my favorite director. John K Clark _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 18:22:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 14:22:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example In-Reply-To: <00a701d5ffab$0ea3e450$2bebacf0$@rainier66.com> References: <008801d5ffa7$e37d7910$aa786b30$@rainier66.com> <00a701d5ffab$0ea3e450$2bebacf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:\ > *>Not at all.The suggestion was made that we do that for a day. It > extended to about a week. We have had enough. You said your piece. I > propose resetting your moderate flag to off, and return to our > regularly-scheduled programming, with the understanding that John, we get > it: you don?t care for the current POTUS, whose name escapes me. You don?t > need to keep on and on and on with the evangelism or the campaigning.* > Ok fine, I'll go back to self censorship, but if the coming months turn out as I fear they will I don't think I will be the first person to mention that fellow's name again, nor will I be the loudest. But despite it all I really do want you and every single member of the list to remain healthy. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Mar 21 18:34:03 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:34:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Interesting times Message-ID: <20200321113403.Horde.o2i5W1PevqIefx2xL2J_9uv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Ok so I have some good news and some bad news that are actually the same piece of news. The good news is that we will be treated with a celestial light show right about May when comet ATLAS shines brightly enough it might be visible in the daytime. This should be a real treat for space-cadets and astro-geeks. https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2020/03/16/comet-atlas-is-brightening-faster-than-expected/?fbclid=IwAR3XPwnYGxRTUUZN5bRuC5xIIyd97b4AvJ61ap2286lBvZzAoKNXuwYT7p0 The bad news is that we will be treated with a celestial light show right about May when comet ATLAS shines brightly enough it might be visible in the daytime. This is going to overlap somewhat with the peak of the epidemic infection rate, so it might cause evangelicals, chiliasts, and other superstitious folk to panic and do irrational things. Y2K, eat your heart out. This is shaping up to be the best apocalypse ever! ;-) Stuart LaForge From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 21:45:35 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 15:45:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] > Taiwan is standing strong In-Reply-To: References: <9C78049D-A6A1-4C21-ABC0-5FE4E935F467@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: Trump's rhetorical toolbox is optimized for human opponents. A human making you look like a pathologically-lying horses ass is a relatively easy problem to solve. You puff up, projecting all the power and confidence you can muster. You hit back harder, suck all of the oxygen out of the room, or any of half-a-dozen other strategies that are literally build into the human hindbrain. These strategies are dark, no question about it, but the problem is, they work. And they work even better in times of perceived crisis. Neolitihic hindbrains will follow strong forceful leaders is a time of crisis, and aren't terribly concerned about epistimelogical truth. In a time of extreme hyperpartisanship, Trump can play the hindbrains of a significant chunk of the population like fiddles. That's not dumbness or stupidity, or even close. It's not even really pathological, per se. Indeed, in the ancestral environment, these abilities were powerful leading indicators of extremely competent tribal leadership ability. Tribes that followed Trumps lived. Their opponents tended not to. And so here we are. The problem is you can't humiliate a virus pandemic into submission. The 2016 election was about choosing a leader who could defeat and cow human opponents. It certainly wasn't about choosing a competent technocrat to manage a public health crisis. But then, it never is. As the meme goes, "Find you a girl who can do both". But that's a much harder challenge, and not one the major parties have been terribly interested in even trying to meet. I haven't the foggiest idea what the DNC is trying to optimize for this time around, and I suspect they don't either Their current front runners are neither Bronze-age warlord archtypes, not competent technocrats. Which si why I'm not optimistic about their chances. On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:32 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:58 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *?Smart???? Did I really hear Dr. Smigrodzki call Trump smart?! * >> > > Trump is so incredibly dumb he won't even tell the truth when the truth > would serve his reelection interests better than a lie would. If in early > January Trump had told the truth as science best understood it and said I'm > sorry to say it but it looks like we're heading toward a horrible tragedy > then when the bodies started to stack up like cordwood he'd look wise and > prescient; and if it had turned out the expert epidemiologists were wrong > and things didn't turn out all that bad then he could claim that thanks to > his heroic measures he saved hundreds of thousands or millions of lives. > But by continuing to insist until just a few days ago that the virus was > just a Democratic hoax and nothing to worry about Trump now looks like the > world's biggest horse's ass. And then, as frosting on the low IQ cake, just > yesterday Trump claimed he knew COVID-19 would be a global pandemic before > anyone else did, and by making that utterance he vividly demonstrated to > the entire world that he is not only a world class fool he is also a world > class lyer. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 22:11:51 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 15:11:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: snip > That problem turns out to be far more difficult than it sounds. An > atmosphere is a great way to filter some kinds of particularly harmful > radiation. I know this area moderately well. Do you have a pointer to "some kinds of particularly harmful radiation." > A sheet of metal creates a bunch of secondary particles when > struck by high-energy particles. To filter out the bad stuff requires a > lot of material. It takes 6 m of polyethylene to get the radiation down to 20 mS/yr. About 10 m of rock will suffice. This is what killed power satellites being constructed by humans. The smallest rotating habitat took 60,000 tons of shielding. Keith > This makes me think we must have a way to use material > already out there, such as from the asteroid belt. From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 23:59:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 19:59:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Folding At Home and COVID-19 Message-ID: The Folding at Home network is now putting all its effort into finding small molecules that could interfere with the COVID-19 virus and it can now reach 470 PetaFLOPS. Summit, the world's largest supercomputer can only do 149 PetaFLOPS. Folding @Home Now More Powerful Than World's Top 7 Supercomputers Combined John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 00:54:08 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 17:54:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] L5 society and infections Message-ID: Henrik Ohrstrom wrote: > When I was an young impressionable larvae I read O'Neills book about orbital colonisation and then I wondered about infelicitous problems. Nowhere in that book do they discuss quarantine and infections. How was this question addressed in L5 circles? In a fair amount of detail though most discussion was addressed to crop disease. You can see some of this discussion in the old issues of the L5 News. Keith From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Mar 22 02:35:23 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:35:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Eysenck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a psychologist, I know of Eysenck. I can?t speak to those ideas about neurological correlates or underpinnings of his personality traits. He is somewhat responsible for, I suppose part of his legacy is, the NEO PI instrument which measures the Big 5, in as much as he came up with two of the personality traits it measures. I?m a pretty big fan of the NEO PI as far psychometric instruments go. -Henry > On Mar 20, 2020, at 9:53 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Have any of you trained in some variety of neuroscience been exposed to the ideas of Hans Eysenck re brain function? > > A basic idea of his is that introverts have a nervous system tuned to excitation - strong excitation, weak inhibition. Very introverted people are highly sensitive to stimulation and are easily overstimulated. Their drug of choice is downers like alcohol. (I once took a pill containing phenylpropanolamine, marketed as Dexatrim. It was as if my brain went into a seizure of stimulation. Overstimulated does not even begin to define it. Headaches, and misery for two hours. Mild stimulation for extroverts looking for weight loss.) Introverts can tolerate long periods of low stimulation. > > Extroverts are said to have nervous systems tuned to inhibition, and so have weak excitation. It takes a lot to overstimulate an extrovert. Extroverts are drawn to uppers to overcome the strong inhibition. They do poorly in school sometimes because sitting down and reading a book for a couple of hours is just not enough stimulation. So they turn on the stereo, get on the phone and talk to somebody - gimme stimulation! Solitary confinement should be illegal for these people - will drive them crazy. > > I am extremely introverted and could drink 18 beers and drive home (long ago), while my companion went to sleep in the car after 6. One student, a girl, said that she passed out after two beers - very extroverted indeed. Cheap date too. (But not much fun unless you are into necrophilia - sorry, cheap joke.) > > He said that the basis of these ideas was the actions of the RAS - reticular activating system. This system controls the level of stimulation in the cortex. When you are highly alert it is firing all over the cortex getting ready for action. When it is inhibited nearly totally you are asleep. You have to get through it to the cortex to wake up. So the excitation and inhibition above are the result of the actions of the RAS. > > He took Jung's concept in introversion/extroversion and modified it and hypothesized the physiological ideas above. > > Any contradictions from your neuroscience knowledge? Heard of Eysenck? He is responsible for two of the Big Five personality factors, I/E and N. > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 14:45:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:45:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] barber Message-ID: Beyond stunned. I was getting a haircut and asked the barber how most people parted their hair on the left versus the right. I thought it was on the left, as I have noticed that, or so I thought, being a man who parted his on the right (which might have something to do with my dad being left-handed and me being nearly equal on both sides). Anyhow, he looked puzzled and finally said on the right. I looked it up when I got home and sure enough, 90% of right handers part on the left, and so do 45% of lefthanders. My question is: how can someone look at heads all day long for about 40 years and not notice where most people part their hair? When asked, get it wrong. So it made me wonder, since the barber was of average intelligence, what I had been missing despite looking at it all my life. I have come up with a few over the years: in the Revolutionary War there was a group called the Green Mountain Boys. I wondered where that came from until I finally got it when I looked at the word Vermont for the thousandth time, and saw it. Then my mind went to : Giuseppe Verdi - Joe Green. We look and we look again and for many years we just don't see. I wonder how many abstractions are that way. We know the definition but simply do not understand the concept the way we think we do. When we do, it's a little epiphany. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 22 22:15:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 17:15:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dyson/dawkins exchange Message-ID: https://www.edge.org/ Dyson died a few days ago, as you likely know bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 01:33:33 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 20:33:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] barber In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <728ACB5A-1EB0-4AC6-9A74-6C22E1F38F87@gmail.com> The barber usually parts the hair from the back, no? He may have mentally reversed sidedness. Or he could be someone like me who can?t tell right from left on a consistent basis. I got confused about it as a little kid and have never recovered. SR Ballard > On Mar 22, 2020, at 9:45 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Beyond stunned. I was getting a haircut and asked the barber how most people parted their hair on the left versus the right. I thought it was on the left, as I have noticed that, or so I thought, being a man who parted his on the right (which might have something to do with my dad being left-handed and me being nearly equal on both sides). > > Anyhow, he looked puzzled and finally said on the right. I looked it up when I got home and sure enough, 90% of right handers part on the left, and so do 45% of lefthanders. > > My question is: how can someone look at heads all day long for about 40 years and not notice where most people part their hair? When asked, get it wrong. > > So it made me wonder, since the barber was of average intelligence, what I had been missing despite looking at it all my life. I have come up with a few over the years: in the Revolutionary War there was a group called the Green Mountain Boys. I wondered where that came from until I finally got it when I looked at the word Vermont for the thousandth time, and saw it. Then my mind went to : Giuseppe Verdi - Joe Green. > > We look and we look again and for many years we just don't see. I wonder how many abstractions are that way. We know the definition but simply do not understand the concept the way we think we do. When we do, it's a little epiphany. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 03:11:17 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 21:11:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] barber In-Reply-To: <728ACB5A-1EB0-4AC6-9A74-6C22E1F38F87@gmail.com> References: <728ACB5A-1EB0-4AC6-9A74-6C22E1F38F87@gmail.com> Message-ID: I worked on the second floor of a building for almost 2 years, in an office with no windows. The first time I went up the elevator, I got turned arround 180 degrees by the time I got to my office. For the entire time, even though I could know I was turned arround, if I would think hard about my position in the building. I would still, naturally, always point (and think)180 degrees in the wrong direction, any time I pointed, while in that office. On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 7:34 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The barber usually parts the hair from the back, no? He may have mentally > reversed sidedness. > > Or he could be someone like me who can?t tell right from left on a > consistent basis. > > I got confused about it as a little kid and have never recovered. > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 22, 2020, at 9:45 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Beyond stunned. I was getting a haircut and asked the barber how most > people parted their hair on the left versus the right. I thought it was on > the left, as I have noticed that, or so I thought, being a man who parted > his on the right (which might have something to do with my dad being > left-handed and me being nearly equal on both sides). > > Anyhow, he looked puzzled and finally said on the right. I looked it up > when I got home and sure enough, 90% of right handers part on the left, and > so do 45% of lefthanders. > > My question is: how can someone look at heads all day long for about 40 > years and not notice where most people part their hair? When asked, get it > wrong. > > So it made me wonder, since the barber was of average intelligence, what I > had been missing despite looking at it all my life. I have come up with a > few over the years: in the Revolutionary War there was a group called the > Green Mountain Boys. I wondered where that came from until I finally got > it when I looked at the word Vermont for the thousandth time, and saw it. > Then my mind went to : Giuseppe Verdi - Joe Green. > > We look and we look again and for many years we just don't see. I wonder > how many abstractions are that way. We know the definition but simply do > not understand the concept the way we think we do. When we do, it's a > little epiphany. > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 04:04:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 21:04:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] books Message-ID: <006201d600c8$3641cef0$a2c56cd0$@rainier66.com> BillW, you asked what books I am reading these days. I have mostly followed the tragic path many of us have trodden, away from paper media to rely on the internet for most of my reading. This isn?t all bad, for I haven?t convinced myself that this path really is tragic. However there is a sense of loss. I love my books. I personally own over 1000. The most recent book I spent much time in was Nicholas Christakis Blueprint, which has its insights. I was given two books by Randal Monroe which I found most entertaining and thought-provoking: How To and Thing Explainer. I had previously read Monroe?s What If, which I found worth the time. Regarding reading on the internet, I have close friends (the parents of my son?s best friend) who lived thru the 1986 Chernobyl experience as physics students at the University of Kiev. Both hold PhDs from that institution. They were in their junior year when the physics students noticed high radiation in the physics building. Searching for a leak of something, they noticed with some alarm that the radiation levels didn?t change anywhere they went in the building, and that the type of radiation they were seeing was inconsistent with any materials they had in that building. They went outside and discovered that the radiation levels were even higher out there, and were consistent everywhere on campus. They didn?t talk to anyone other than each other. Ukraine was still part of the Soviet Union in 1986. The physics students made some calls and figured out what had happened, for they figured out it had to be a nuclear reactor accident. They knew exactly where all of those were located. They began contacting people they knew, but the phone lines to Pripyat had been cut. The days immediately after the accident at the end of April, Gorbachev was trying to keep the secret. I tread carefully when I am around my friends as they tell of their experience, for they soon get spitting-blood mad at communism and everything USSR because of what happened: they expected the students to attend the May Day parade. Only the physics students realized there was radiation falling from the sky and they dared no tell anyone. This was the system in those days. I have heard only part of the story. The HBO miniseries Chernobyl is what they are viewing this week as we sit indoors (I am going outside anyway (the local constables saw me (and did nothing.))) So I search around on the internet and graze on articles about the accident. I want to be able to at least listen intelligently, even if I don?t know enough to speak on the topic. After my friends view the miniseries, I will ask them what the series got right and what they got wrong. Then listen carefully about what they say. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 05:49:22 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:49:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 9:13 PM spike wrote: snip > The suggestion was made that we do that for a day. It extended to about a week. We have had enough. You said your piece. What's amusing is that I made a post that was *much* more politically incorrect and it generated no followup comments at all. I have been on and off this list since it started. Perhaps the current members do not grok what I write about. > I propose resetting your moderate flag to off, and return to our regularly-scheduled programming, with the understanding that John, we get it: you don?t care for the current POTUS, whose name escapes me. You don?t need to keep on and on and on with the evangelism or the campaigning. I happen to know why the current POTUS was elected in the first place. Stone age psychological selection and a bleak future, of course. BTW, the problems John refers to may be short term. It takes serious behavior modification (social distancing) to avoid the virus. The current POTUS is setting a bad example. I find it plausible that the COVID-19 pandemic could decapitate the US gov. Speaking of COVID-19, this idea needs study, but I suspect that even low heat in a drier would kill all the viruses on a mask. I am not sure where to suggest such a test. If anyone knows a place, please pass the idea along. Since it does not cost much, I filed for a patent on the "Face Stick." "An infection route for COVID-19, flu and related viruses is hands picking up virus particles from surfaces and then people touching their faces. The size of this infection route is poorly qualified, but may be substantial. The invention is the use of a stick to avoid touching a person?s face." If you want to carry a tongue depressors for this use I will not sue you for violating the patent :-) If one of you (or anyone else) wants to make and distribute them by the millions, talk to me about it. I will be reasonable. Keith > spike > From giulio at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 07:29:16 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:29:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good Message-ID: Telework is taking off, hopefully for good Perhaps, when the pandemic is over, most workers and companies, students and teachers, will be used to telework and choose to continue. I hope so... https://giulioprisco.com/telework-is-taking-off-hopefully-for-good-3b7d54f9e36e From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 11:42:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 07:42:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] books In-Reply-To: <006201d600c8$3641cef0$a2c56cd0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d600c8$3641cef0$a2c56cd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *The HBO miniseries Chernobyl is what they are viewing this week as we > sit indoors * I guess there is no better time than right now to watch good TV and read good books. I liked the HBO miniseries until it said if the uranium core melted through the concrete floor and reached the groundwater it would cause a 4 megaton explosion. In a worse case scenario the explosion would be equal to about 4 tons of TNT not 4 MILLION tons. And it said Chernobyl gave up as much radiation every hour as Hiroshima did and that's misleading at best, the two things are hard to compare. Nearly all the radiation deaths at Hiroshima were caused not by fallout but by high speed neutrons in the split second after the blast, and that was not a factor at Chernobyl. It was a large enough tragedy as it is and there is no need to exaggerate. The best book on Chernobyl I've read is "Midnight At Chernobyl" by Adam Higginbotham. I'm currently halfway through "Everybody Lies" by Seth Davidowitz and so far I like it. Other books I've recently read and liked are: "Man on the Moon" by Andrew Chaikin "Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue" by John McWhorter "American Prometheus" by Kai Bird and Martin Sherwin "Algorithms To Live By" by Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths "The Strangest Man" by Graham Farmelo "The Universe Speaks in Numbers" by Graham Farmelo "No Shadow Of a Doubt" by Daniel Kennefick "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" by Lee Smolin "Something Deeply Hidden" by Sean Carroll" "Until the End Of Time" by Brian Greene "The Hidden Reality" by Brian Greene" "Shattered Sword" by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 12:13:35 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:13:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:52 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> What's amusing is that I made a post that was *much* more politically > incorrect and it generated no followup comments at all. * Yeah I noticed that too. You must have a diplomacy gene that I lack or I have an abrasive gene that you lack. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Mar 22 15:52:51 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 08:52:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] barber In-Reply-To: <729937694.106269.1584891106093@mail.yahoo.com> References: <729937694.106269.1584891106093@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200322085251.Horde.MvAJMxcwTQ5aPdPTKyRAGn-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Well from your barber's POV from the front, those people who part on their left side, are parting on his right side. And since most people comb their hair while looking in a mirror, those that part it on their left side do so based upon how it would look to others if they parted it on their right side. Not to mention all those mirrors in the barber shop. So maybe give your barber a break. :-P Stuart LaForge Quoting Bill Wallace: > Beyond stunned. I was getting a haircut and asked the barber how > most people parted their hair on the left versus the right.? I > thought it was on the left, as I have noticed that, or so I thought, > being a man who parted his on the right (which might have something > to do with my dad being left-handed and me being nearly equal on > both sides). > Anyhow, he looked puzzled and finally said on the right.? I looked > it up when I got home and sure enough, 90% of right handers part on > the left, and so do 45% of lefthanders. > My question is:? how can someone look at heads all day long for > about 40 years and not notice where most people part their hair?? > When asked, get it wrong. > So it made me wonder, since the barber was of average?intelligence, > what I had been missing despite looking at it all my life.? I have > come up with a few over the years:? in the Revolutionary War there > was a group called the Green Mountain Boys.? I wondered where that > came from until I finally got it when I looked at the word Vermont > for the thousandth time, and saw it.? Then my mind went to :? > Giuseppe Verdi - Joe Green. > We look and we look again and for many years we just don't see.? I > wonder how many abstractions are that way.? We know the definition > but simply do not understand the concept the way we think we do.? > When we do, it's a little epiphany. From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 13:48:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:48:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] barber In-Reply-To: <20200322085251.Horde.MvAJMxcwTQ5aPdPTKyRAGn-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <729937694.106269.1584891106093@mail.yahoo.com> <20200322085251.Horde.MvAJMxcwTQ5aPdPTKyRAGn-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: And my barber is left-handed, if that has anything to do with it. Also - I watch him cut and for years did not notice that he cuts left-handed. In the mirror of course he is cutting right-handed which would look normal to me, so I would not think a thing about it, and if asked, would say that he is right-handed. bill w On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 8:45 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well from your barber's POV from the front, those people who part on > their left side, are parting on his right side. And since most people > comb their hair while looking in a mirror, those that part it on their > left side do so based upon how it would look to others if they parted > it on their right side. Not to mention all those mirrors in the barber > shop. So maybe give your barber a break. :-P > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > Quoting Bill Wallace: > > > Beyond stunned. I was getting a haircut and asked the barber how > > most people parted their hair on the left versus the right. I > > thought it was on the left, as I have noticed that, or so I thought, > > being a man who parted his on the right (which might have something > > to do with my dad being left-handed and me being nearly equal on > > both sides). > > Anyhow, he looked puzzled and finally said on the right. I looked > > it up when I got home and sure enough, 90% of right handers part on > > the left, and so do 45% of lefthanders. > > My question is: how can someone look at heads all day long for > > about 40 years and not notice where most people part their hair? > > When asked, get it wrong. > > So it made me wonder, since the barber was of average intelligence, > > what I had been missing despite looking at it all my life. I have > > come up with a few over the years: in the Revolutionary War there > > was a group called the Green Mountain Boys. I wondered where that > > came from until I finally got it when I looked at the word Vermont > > for the thousandth time, and saw it. Then my mind went to : > > Giuseppe Verdi - Joe Green. > > We look and we look again and for many years we just don't see. I > > wonder how many abstractions are that way. We know the definition > > but simply do not understand the concept the way we think we do. > > When we do, it's a little epiphany. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 14:18:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 07:18:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006a01d6011d$dff84f00$9fe8ed00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good >...Telework is taking off, hopefully for good >...Perhaps, when the pandemic is over, most workers and companies, students and teachers, will be used to telework and choose to continue. I hope so... https://giulioprisco.com/telework-is-taking-off-hopefully-for-good-3b7d54f9e 36e I see it as a great example of social pre-adaptation. Our local high school was growing way beyond its capacity, so the city passed a rare bond measure to provide 366 million bucks to upgrade and build a second high school on land already owned by the school district. However... this takes time. The plan was to allow some of the students to do supervised study from home, which was mostly online. They would arrange for testing to be taken on-site once a week and so forth. They assigned the teachers the task of planning what they would do if as many as 20% of the students were off site. I don't think they planned for everyone to be out, but the staff was partly or mostly pre-adapted for this by crowding. They distributed ChromeBooks to any student who didn't have their own computer. They set up for free WiFi for those who do not have home internet connections. They put all their materials online. Community volunteers stepped up and expanded the free lunch program. Now the local school is offering free lunch, free breakfast, even free dinner (all of it take-out) and to some extent free daycare of sorts for young miscreants who would otherwise form roving bands of marauding youth. This last part has been mercifully light in local demand. We are starting our second week of that today. The biggest difference between the plan and the reality is that there are no controlled tests or quizzes, so as far as I can tell, no practical way to control cheating. So one would assume that grades are meaningless and the notion of a valedictorian is history, along with most grade-based admissions to the kinds of universities where movie stars pay big money to get their larvae admitted. Before I offer any first hand observations, do feel free to speculate on how it is working. I talk and listen to a number of other parents because of my role in scouts, so I am getting a lot of views on the whole thing, from parents and students. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 14:30:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 07:30:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] barber In-Reply-To: References: <729937694.106269.1584891106093@mail.yahoo.com> <20200322085251.Horde.MvAJMxcwTQ5aPdPTKyRAGn-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <007c01d6011f$9887d120$c9977360$@rainier66.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > Beyond stunned. I was getting a haircut and asked the barber how > most people parted their hair on the left versus the right. I have found the answer to that problem Bill: I go to a barber who speaks very little English, and I speak no Vietnamese. Her shop is 4 minutes walk from my house, so if I get to where I cannot drive before cars drive themselves, I can still get my hair cut, and there is no chatter about left or right. If she did speak English, I wouldn?t talk to her or even go to her shop: too attractive, and she dresses like she means it. {8^D We fellers who have been happily married for 36 years have our techniques for staying that way: be boring. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 14:34:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 09:34:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] amendment I Message-ID: How are we getting around the 1st amendment and the freedom to peacefully assemble? Just ignoring it? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 14:41:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 09:41:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] barber In-Reply-To: <007c01d6011f$9887d120$c9977360$@rainier66.com> References: <729937694.106269.1584891106093@mail.yahoo.com> <20200322085251.Horde.MvAJMxcwTQ5aPdPTKyRAGn-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <007c01d6011f$9887d120$c9977360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have really never known the difference between being friendly and flirting. In fact I have asked women if I was flirting with them and have gotten no response. One girl student once told me that she was flirting with me rather strongly (she later said that she had a big crush on me) and I never noticed. Par for the course. I leave it to your imagination what it would take for me to realize that a female was flirting with me. I think women of a certain age appreciate a bit of flirting. Shows they could still be in the game; still thought of as attractive. I would not flirt with any intention of doing anything about it as I am a serial monogamist - married four times. Three women. I think flirting may be difficult to define. If a woman wears a top with lots of cleavage I am going to look though hopefully not drool. Is she flirting? Am I? What if I looked up into her face and smiled? Anybody have a take on this? bill w On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 9:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Quoting Bill Wallace: > > > Beyond stunned. I was getting a haircut and asked the barber how > > most people parted their hair on the left versus the right. > > > > I have found the answer to that problem Bill: I go to a barber who speaks > very little English, and I speak no Vietnamese. Her shop is 4 minutes walk > from my house, so if I get to where I cannot drive before cars drive > themselves, I can still get my hair cut, and there is no chatter about left > or right. > > > > If she did speak English, I wouldn?t talk to her or even go to her shop: > too attractive, and she dresses like she means it. {8^D > > > > We fellers who have been happily married for 36 years have our techniques > for staying that way: be boring. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 14:52:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 07:52:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] amendment I How are we getting around the 1st amendment and the freedom to peacefully assemble? Just ignoring it? bill w What you mean ?we? Kimosabe? The California governor thinks he is free to make law that contradicts the Fed. Many people think our shelter-in-place order means they cannot go outside their homes. It doesn?t really mean that, but they don?t quite understand it. I go outside for walks, the local constables see me, they cheerfully return my wave. As for assembling, we are still doing that when necessary, by Skype, FaceTime and other video conferencing, which works better than I woulda thought. We are even peacefully assembling right here, if one has an open-minded definition of the term ?peaceful.? In any case, we are assembling right here. I have heard they went around handing out 50 dollar misdemeanor tickets for those businesses which refused to close. One of these was a gun shop. Gun shop owners know the law better than anyone, so they already know the governor of California won?t bother trying to collect his 50 bucks: the order specifically exempts necessary business. The second amendment clearly states that a militia is necessary to the security of a free state. Her shop supports the militia. So? it is a necessary business, exempt. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 15:19:13 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:19:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: New York exempted liquor stores. bill w On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 9:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] amendment I > > > > How are we getting around the 1st amendment and the freedom to peacefully > assemble? > > > > Just ignoring it? > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > What you mean ?we? Kimosabe? > > > > The California governor thinks he is free to make law that contradicts the > Fed. Many people think our shelter-in-place order means they cannot go > outside their homes. It doesn?t really mean that, but they don?t quite > understand it. I go outside for walks, the local constables see me, they > cheerfully return my wave. > > > > As for assembling, we are still doing that when necessary, by Skype, > FaceTime and other video conferencing, which works better than I woulda > thought. We are even peacefully assembling right here, if one has an > open-minded definition of the term ?peaceful.? In any case, we are > assembling right here. > > > > I have heard they went around handing out 50 dollar misdemeanor tickets > for those businesses which refused to close. One of these was a gun shop. > Gun shop owners know the law better than anyone, so they already know the > governor of California won?t bother trying to collect his 50 bucks: the > order specifically exempts necessary business. The second amendment > clearly states that a militia is necessary to the security of a free > state. Her shop supports the militia. So? it is a necessary business, > exempt. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 15:36:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:36:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] amendment I >?New York exempted liquor stores. bill w Of course. There is a big liquor store next to our grocery outlet. They limited the number of customers in order to reduce risk. When one leaves, they let one in. >?How are we getting around the 1st amendment and the freedom to peacefully assemble? bill w We do not get around the first amendment or any other human right. Bill there is a critically important concept I do hope everyone here gets: When citizens allow the government to act illegally, the government soon disallows the citizens to act legally. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 16:17:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 11:17:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yeah, it would be interesting if a group sued on the basis of the 1st amendment for the ability to have public meetings. bill On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 10:38 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] amendment I > > > > >?New York exempted liquor stores. bill w > > > > > > Of course. There is a big liquor store next to our grocery outlet. They > limited the number of customers in order to reduce risk. When one leaves, > they let one in. > > > > > > >?How are we getting around the 1st amendment and the freedom to > peacefully assemble? bill w > > > > We do not get around the first amendment or any other human right. > > Bill there is a critically important concept I do hope everyone here gets: > > When citizens allow the government to act illegally, the government soon > disallows the citizens to act legally. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 16:19:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 09:19:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] books In-Reply-To: References: <006201d600c8$3641cef0$a2c56cd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00dd01d6012e$c4239d00$4c6ad700$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] books On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> The HBO miniseries Chernobyl is what they are viewing this week as we sit indoors >?I guess there is no better time than right now to watch good TV and read good books. I liked the HBO miniseries until it said if the uranium core melted through the concrete floor and reached the groundwater it would cause a 4 megaton explosion. In a worse case scenario the explosion would be equal to about 4 tons of TNT not 4 MILLION tons ? John K Clark We aughta be able to do sound dubbing and change it to 4 megagram explosion. >From what my friends said, there were other inaccuracies, both technical and cultural. Overall they did a pretty good job of depicting Ukrainian life in the 80s, but one thing this couple are very sensitive about is that the scientists did not live in similar conditions to the workers who sacrificed their lives to contain the radiation. The firemen, students and worker bees lived in what we could call squalor, whereas the scientists lived a lot like lowish-middle class Americans, in apartments, with a few amenities. The party biggies lived well. The miniseries didn?t really do much with that difference, which was important because of the political unrest in Ukraine which resulted in the USSR spinning apart. The classless society definitely had social classes. My Ukrainian friends see any (even unintentional) effort to downplay social classes as defending communism, which they despise to the core of their consciousness. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 16:19:32 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:19:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: NJ is already getting sued for making it impossible to buy firearms under the close down as a direct violation of the 2nd. On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Yeah, it would be interesting if a group sued on the basis of the 1st > amendment for the ability to have public meetings. bill > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 10:38 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] amendment I >> >> >> >> >?New York exempted liquor stores. bill w >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course. There is a big liquor store next to our grocery outlet. They >> limited the number of customers in order to reduce risk. When one leaves, >> they let one in. >> >> >> >> >> >> >?How are we getting around the 1st amendment and the freedom to >> peacefully assemble? bill w >> >> >> >> We do not get around the first amendment or any other human right. >> >> Bill there is a critically important concept I do hope everyone here gets: >> >> When citizens allow the government to act illegally, the government soon >> disallows the citizens to act legally. >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 16:21:04 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:21:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - Nature versus Nurture, but random noise as well Message-ID: Nature Versus Nurture? Add ?Noise? to the Debate. We give our genes and our environment all the credit for making us who we are. But random noise during development might be a deciding factor, too. March 23, 2020 Quotes: Nine-banded armadillos always have litters of identical quadruplets. Researchers are now taking advantage of that system to study nongenetic sources of variation among individuals. Everything not chalked up to genetic control tends to get attributed to diverse environmental factors, ranging from nutrition to stress to idiosyncratic social interactions. It?s a line of thought that ?suggests that it must be something outside the organism,? said Kevin Mitchell, a geneticist and neuroscientist at Trinity College Dublin. But proof abounds that this is not entirely true. Identical human twins who share both a genome and a home don?t look or act exactly the same. A mutation that causes a disorder in one might not in the other. Twins even have different fingerprints. Research is making it ever clearer that these differences can?t all be written off as unexplained environmental effects. Which leaves noise ? the random tremors and fluctuations that characterize any biological process. ?Noise is inevitable,? said Andreas Wagner, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Zurich, ?an inevitable byproduct of life.? ?The genome is not a blueprint,? Mitchell said. ?It doesn?t encode some specific outcome. It only encodes some biochemical rules, some cellular algorithms by which the developing embryo will self-organize.? Molecules bounce around and interact in a cell, binding and pulling apart and diffusing at random. The processes that make proteins and turn genes on and off are subject to this ?molecular jitter in the system,? as Mitchell calls it ? which leads to some degree of randomness in how many protein molecules are made, how they assemble and fold, and how they fulfill their function and help cells make decisions. etc. _______________ Long article, but worth a read. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 16:23:36 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:23:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 10:40 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How are we getting around the 1st amendment and the freedom to peacefully > assemble? > As a practical matter the 1st amendment means whatever the Supreme Court says it means. And I don't think declaring, in the middle of a global pandemic, that quarantines are unconstitutional, is a battlefield most judges would want to die on. As for exactly how to get around it, well, a good lawyer (Better Call Saul) can make an argument in support of just about anything. By the way, I just tried to verbally search for "quarantines" and I got stuff about "horney teens", I tried again and this time I got stuff about "florentines", so I gave up and just typed it in. I have a feeling in the coming weeks Google will become more familiar with that word. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 16:30:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 09:30:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f001d60130$6f3c5050$4db4f0f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 12:29 AM Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good Telework is taking off, hopefully for good Perhaps, when the pandemic is over, most workers and companies, students and teachers, will be used to telework and choose to continue. I hope so... https://giulioprisco.com/telework-is-taking-off-hopefully-for-good-3b7d54f9e 36e _______________________________________________ Giulio, thanks for the site. You touched on something very important about Teleplace meetings regarding employee motivation, down in the middle of the page. I am forming a parent group to advise the school superintendent on the effectiveness of their remote learning. After talking and listening, I am finding that motivation is a critical factor in how the students do. Some are going at it like a hot chainsaw thru butter (I have a good example in my home) while others do little or nothing. They now realize they can't really be tested, so the work is not really subject to any credible metric, so their grades are mostly meaningless, so they don't do the work. Or just do enough to kinda get by, after a fashion. Adam Smith's invisible hand of capitalism applies to studies as well as paid labor. In remote learning, the academically rich get richer, the poor get nothing. spike From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 16:39:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 09:39:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f301d60131$aabb5f80$00321e80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] amendment I Yeah, it would be interesting if a group sued on the basis of the 1st amendment for the ability to have public meetings. Bill Citizen groups don?t need to sue to get human rights. We already have those. If the state government claims the legal right to fine citizens for violating a governor-issued mandate, then it is welcome to sue us. Even in California, ours is the government of the people, by the people and for the people. Power-grabby governments need to be checked at every level. When the people allow government to act illegally, the government acts to prevent the people from acting legally. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 16:55:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 09:55:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] amendment I >?NJ is already getting sued for making it impossible to buy firearms under the close down as a direct violation of the 2nd? They are selling like hotcakes out here. Sales of AR-15s were brisk during the previous administration, but slumped in the current one. Now I am told 5.56 NATO ammo is getting hard to find and there may be profiteering taking place. I don?t need any .223 cal so I haven?t seen it firsthand. NJ is causing the gunsmith to lose a lotta business at a time when she would otherwise be going like a bat outta hell. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 17:04:33 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:04:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 9:28 AM John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 1:52 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> What's amusing is that I made a post that was *much* more politically > > incorrect and it generated no followup comments at all. * > > Yeah I noticed that too. You must have a diplomacy gene that I lack or I > have an abrasive gene that you lack. Or, as I mentioned, they don't grok. Like everything else involving humans, the Extropian viewpoint needs to be considered in the light of evolutionary psychology. What do we want? Why do we want it? Questions, I think, that require evolutionary psychology to answer. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 17:10:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:10:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: <00f001d60130$6f3c5050$4db4f0f0$@rainier66.com> References: <00f001d60130$6f3c5050$4db4f0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Why can't they be tested? bill w On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 12:29 AM > Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good > > Telework is taking off, hopefully for good > > Perhaps, when the pandemic is over, most workers and companies, students > and > teachers, will be used to telework and choose to continue. I hope so... > > > https://giulioprisco.com/telework-is-taking-off-hopefully-for-good-3b7d54f9e > 36e > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Giulio, thanks for the site. > > You touched on something very important about Teleplace meetings regarding > employee motivation, down in the middle of the page. > > I am forming a parent group to advise the school superintendent on the > effectiveness of their remote learning. After talking and listening, I am > finding that motivation is a critical factor in how the students do. Some > are going at it like a hot chainsaw thru butter (I have a good example in > my > home) while others do little or nothing. They now realize they can't > really > be tested, so the work is not really subject to any credible metric, so > their grades are mostly meaningless, so they don't do the work. Or just do > enough to kinda get by, after a fashion. Adam Smith's invisible hand of > capitalism applies to studies as well as paid labor. > > In remote learning, the academically rich get richer, the poor get nothing. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 17:25:33 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:25:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:31 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://giulioprisco.com/telework-is-taking-off-hopefully-for-good-3b7d54f9e36e You wrote so much of this, you got 2 bylines? ;) (Check the bottom of the article.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 17:27:18 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:27:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: <006a01d6011d$dff84f00$9fe8ed00$@rainier66.com> References: <006a01d6011d$dff84f00$9fe8ed00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The biggest difference between the plan and the reality is that there are > no > controlled tests or quizzes, so as far as I can tell, no practical way to > control cheating. So one would assume that grades are meaningless and the > notion of a valedictorian is history, along with most grade-based > admissions > to the kinds of universities where movie stars pay big money to get their > larvae admitted. > There are ways to do remote tests & quizzes where cheating is not a practical option. Maybe not as wide a range as in-person testing, but they exist. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 17:45:59 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:45:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:40 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How are we getting around the 1st amendment and the freedom to peacefully > assemble? > > Just ignoring it? > For now, in practical terms? For many of us, yeah. We've got social media and other tele-ways to express ourselves. Large public gatherings aren't popular right now, which means any attempts don't get that much attendance anyway, even without the government order. TBH, most of the impact would be had just as well if the government merely asked instead of ordered. But there are documented cases of people getting infected (whether or not they knew it), being aggressive about flouting the order, and infecting a bunch of other folks. This is not "unpopular speech", but "a form of expression that inflicts physical danger on otherwise uninvolved people" - also known as "shouting fire in a crowded theater" - which has long been ruled not protected by the 1st Amendment. So, where enforcement sticks to those kinds of cases, it's actually legal. The problem is when it strays from that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 17:49:43 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:49:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One is my Medium id, which happens to be my name, the other is the name of my website hosted by Medium, which also happens to be my name ! On 2020. Mar 23., Mon at 18:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:31 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> https://giulioprisco.com/telework-is-taking-off-hopefully-for-good-3b7d54f9e36e > > > You wrote so much of this, you got 2 bylines? ;) (Check the bottom of the > article.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 17:53:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:53:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: References: <00f001d60130$6f3c5050$4db4f0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017901d6013b$f50c98b0$df25ca10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good >?Why can't they be tested? bill w Because there is no practical way to prevent cheating. Any scores are on the honor system. This is OK if grades are not used for competitive placement, but without grade-based competitive placement, I don?t see that the scholar class has a fighting chance against the money class for college admissions to those places where the degrees are valuable. spike On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>? They now realize they can't really be tested, so the work is not really subject to any credible metric, so their grades are mostly meaningless, so they don't do the work. Or just do enough to kinda get by, after a fashion. Adam Smith's invisible hand of capitalism applies to studies as well as paid labor. In remote learning, the academically rich get richer, the poor get nothing. spike _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 17:53:25 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:53:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: References: <006a01d6011d$dff84f00$9fe8ed00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Many schools with online programs have opt-in options to be officially tested at physical location, and receive a certificate for a fee. On 2020. Mar 23., Mon at 18:48, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The biggest difference between the plan and the reality is that there are >> no >> controlled tests or quizzes, so as far as I can tell, no practical way to >> control cheating. So one would assume that grades are meaningless and the >> notion of a valedictorian is history, along with most grade-based >> admissions >> to the kinds of universities where movie stars pay big money to get their >> larvae admitted. >> > > There are ways to do remote tests & quizzes where cheating is not a > practical option. Maybe not as wide a range as in-person testing, but they > exist. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 23 17:59:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:59:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: References: <006a01d6011d$dff84f00$9fe8ed00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018501d6013c$dcb7b1e0$962715a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: The biggest difference between the plan and the reality is that there are no controlled tests or quizzes, so as far as I can tell, no practical way to control cheating? >?There are ways to do remote tests & quizzes where cheating is not a practical option. Maybe not as wide a range as in-person testing, but they exist? Ja by all means. There is a company nearby which does SAT, GRE, various professional testing and so forth. But our local public school is not currently read to do in-home zero-cost testing, which are two of the requirements. When we were talking about remote learning, the plan was to have the students study from home but do on-site in-person testing. So that part of the plan was not pre-adapted to a quarantine. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 18:53:16 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 11:53:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: <018501d6013c$dcb7b1e0$962715a0$@rainier66.com> References: <006a01d6011d$dff84f00$9fe8ed00$@rainier66.com> <018501d6013c$dcb7b1e0$962715a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 11:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > But our local public school is not currently read to do in-home zero-cost > testing, which are two of the requirements. > Open book tests are pretty simple to implement. Try to make most of the questions narrative if possible, including "show your work" for more math-heavy questions. Warn students that answers will be compared, so anyone who simply copies someone else's answer will be found out. Students who cheat rarely put more effort into it than that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 19:28:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:28:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - Nature versus Nurture, but random noise as well In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can't remember the link, but I read something recently about what changes could occur in the womb and they were many, some accounting for differences between twins. bill w On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 11:48 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Nature Versus Nurture? Add ?Noise? to the Debate. > > We give our genes and our environment all the credit for making us who > we are. But random noise during development might be a deciding > factor, too. > March 23, 2020 > > < > https://www.quantamagazine.org/nature-versus-nurture-add-noise-to-the-debate-20200323/ > > > > Quotes: > Nine-banded armadillos always have litters of identical quadruplets. > Researchers are now taking advantage of that system to study > nongenetic sources of variation among individuals. > > Everything not chalked up to genetic control tends to get attributed > to diverse environmental factors, ranging from nutrition to stress to > idiosyncratic social interactions. It?s a line of thought that > ?suggests that it must be something outside the organism,? said Kevin > Mitchell, a geneticist and neuroscientist at Trinity College Dublin. > > But proof abounds that this is not entirely true. Identical human > twins who share both a genome and a home don?t look or act exactly the > same. A mutation that causes a disorder in one might not in the other. > Twins even have different fingerprints. > > Research is making it ever clearer that these differences can?t all be > written off as unexplained environmental effects. > > Which leaves noise ? the random tremors and fluctuations that > characterize any biological process. ?Noise is inevitable,? said > Andreas Wagner, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Zurich, > ?an inevitable byproduct of life.? > > ?The genome is not a blueprint,? Mitchell said. ?It doesn?t encode > some specific outcome. It only encodes some biochemical rules, some > cellular algorithms by which the developing embryo will > self-organize.? Molecules bounce around and interact in a cell, > binding and pulling apart and diffusing at random. The processes that > make proteins and turn genes on and off are subject to this ?molecular > jitter in the system,? as Mitchell calls it ? which leads to some > degree of randomness in how many protein molecules are made, how they > assemble and fold, and how they fulfill their function and help cells > make decisions. > etc. > _______________ > > Long article, but worth a read. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 19:34:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:34:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Like everything else involving humans, the Extropian viewpoint needs to be considered in the light of evolutionary psychology. What do we want? Why do we want it? Questions, I think, that require evolutionary psychology to answer. Keith When I joined this group one of my main reasons was to get some input relating to psychology. In particular: just what changes in humans did we want? Increase IQ, bolster immune system, etc. Change our personalities? I got nowhere. I don't recall one person who replied to that post. I was flabbergasted and dumbfounded. Still am. Always open to discuss that topic at any length. For instance: should we be shorter? Thinner? More introverted? bill w On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:27 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 9:28 AM John Clark wrote: > > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 1:52 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> What's amusing is that I made a post that was *much* more politically > > > incorrect and it generated no followup comments at all. * > > > > Yeah I noticed that too. You must have a diplomacy gene that I lack or I > > have an abrasive gene that you lack. > > Or, as I mentioned, they don't grok. > > Like everything else involving humans, the Extropian viewpoint needs > to be considered in the light of evolutionary psychology. What do we > want? Why do we want it? Questions, I think, that require > evolutionary psychology to answer. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Mar 23 20:23:37 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 20:23:37 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <523bd7f6-1ca0-81dc-e607-8822a2055748@zaiboc.net> I hate the phrase "Nature Versus Nurture". It's far too dumbed-down. In fact, it's totally misleading, imo. "Everything not chalked up to genetic control tends to get attributed to diverse environmental factors" Maybe by journalists, it does, but not by anyone who has any understanding of developmental biology. Development is as much a set of feedback loops as just about every other aspect of biology, so you can't separate out genetic and environmental factors, they influence each other constantly. There is no one vs. the other, that's just silly. ?The genome is not a blueprint" So far so good, but this seems to be a missed opportunity to actually explain what really goes on, and to ditch the abominable phrase altogether. Rant over. -- Ben Zaiboc From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:39:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:39:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well In-Reply-To: <523bd7f6-1ca0-81dc-e607-8822a2055748@zaiboc.net> References: <523bd7f6-1ca0-81dc-e607-8822a2055748@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Well Ben, what can we do? If I say that my height is mostly genetic am I wrong? If I say that learning my name is mostly nurture, an I wrong? How could I express myself without giving a lecture? bill w On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:25 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I hate the phrase "Nature Versus Nurture". It's far too dumbed-down. In > fact, it's totally misleading, imo. > > "Everything not chalked up to genetic control tends to get attributed to > diverse environmental factors" > > Maybe by journalists, it does, but not by anyone who has any understanding > of developmental biology. Development is as much a set of feedback loops as > just about every other aspect of biology, so you can't separate out genetic > and environmental factors, they influence each other constantly. There is > no one vs. the other, that's just silly. > > ?The genome is not a blueprint" > > So far so good, but this seems to be a missed opportunity to actually > explain what really goes on, and to ditch the abominable phrase altogether. > > Rant over. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:42:15 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:42:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As someone with an ?extremely abrasive? personality, I would love to snap my fingers and be able to change my personality. Especially to be able to turn it from one way to another at will: from fun-loving and affable, to serious and calculating, and back. I would object, however, to someone doing it to me / to children. I think that?s an individual choice. I think, essentially, I would like control over how my personality is at any given time. SR Ballard > On Mar 23, 2020, at 2:34 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Like everything else involving humans, the Extropian viewpoint needs > to be considered in the light of evolutionary psychology. What do we > want? Why do we want it? Questions, I think, that require > evolutionary psychology to answer. > > Keith > > When I joined this group one of my main reasons was to get some input relating to psychology. In particular: just what changes in humans did we want? Increase IQ, bolster immune system, etc. Change our personalities? I got nowhere. I don't recall one person who replied to that post. I was flabbergasted and dumbfounded. Still am. Always open to discuss that topic at any length. > > For instance: should we be shorter? Thinner? More introverted? > > bill w > >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:27 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 9:28 AM John Clark wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 1:52 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> > *> What's amusing is that I made a post that was *much* more politically >> > > incorrect and it generated no followup comments at all. * >> > >> > Yeah I noticed that too. You must have a diplomacy gene that I lack or I >> > have an abrasive gene that you lack. >> >> Or, as I mentioned, they don't grok. >> >> Like everything else involving humans, the Extropian viewpoint needs >> to be considered in the light of evolutionary psychology. What do we >> want? Why do we want it? Questions, I think, that require >> evolutionary psychology to answer. >> >> Keith >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:42:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:42:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well In-Reply-To: <523bd7f6-1ca0-81dc-e607-8822a2055748@zaiboc.net> References: <523bd7f6-1ca0-81dc-e607-8822a2055748@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 4:26 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ?The genome is not a blueprint" True, the genome is the recipe. And in the real world nothing can follow instructions perfectly so 2 cooks will produce 2 cakes that are different even if they're working from the same recipe. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:52:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:52:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:50 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As someone with an ?extremely abrasive? personality, I would love to snap > my fingers and be able to change my personality. > > This will be available to you as soon as you are uploaded. bill w > > > On Mar 23, 2020, at 2:34 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Like everything else involving humans, the Extropian viewpoint needs > to be considered in the light of evolutionary psychology. What do we > want? Why do we want it? Questions, I think, that require > evolutionary psychology to answer. > > Keith > > When I joined this group one of my main reasons was to get some input > relating to psychology. In particular: just what changes in humans did we > want? Increase IQ, bolster immune system, etc. Change our personalities? > I got nowhere. I don't recall one person who replied to that post. I was > flabbergasted and dumbfounded. Still am. Always open to discuss that topic > at any length. > > For instance: should we be shorter? Thinner? More introverted? > > bill w > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:27 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 9:28 AM John Clark wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 1:52 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> > *> What's amusing is that I made a post that was *much* more politically >> > > incorrect and it generated no followup comments at all. * >> > >> > Yeah I noticed that too. You must have a diplomacy gene that I lack or I >> > have an abrasive gene that you lack. >> >> Or, as I mentioned, they don't grok. >> >> Like everything else involving humans, the Extropian viewpoint needs >> to be considered in the light of evolutionary psychology. What do we >> want? Why do we want it? Questions, I think, that require >> evolutionary psychology to answer. >> >> Keith >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:56:58 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:56:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: With the way things are going where I live, my boyfriend and I are considering buying a gun, but not really sure is we can afford it. One of our roommates feels the same. The other thinks we are crazy. At this point I can just walk up the street and buy one. The important thing is, I think, if people actually WOULD stay home, they won?t need to enforce it in a draconian way. But people are too selfish to act in their own best interests. For example: people who think wearing seatbelts doesn?t look cool. SR Ballard > On Mar 23, 2020, at 11:55 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] amendment I > > >?NJ is already getting sued for making it impossible to buy firearms under the close down as a direct violation of the 2nd? > > > They are selling like hotcakes out here. Sales of AR-15s were brisk during the previous administration, but slumped in the current one. Now I am told 5.56 NATO ammo is getting hard to find and there may be profiteering taking place. I don?t need any .223 cal so I haven?t seen it firsthand. > > NJ is causing the gunsmith to lose a lotta business at a time when she would otherwise be going like a bat outta hell. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:51:34 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:51:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Telework is taking off, hopefully for good In-Reply-To: References: <006a01d6011d$dff84f00$9fe8ed00$@rainier66.com> <018501d6013c$dcb7b1e0$962715a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <9CD2B2CA-7BC2-47B9-8884-85F9E17DEE40@gmail.com> Math is my best subject, by far. But if I had to ?show my work?, in math, on a computer, I would have failed and dropped out of high school. I tried math lab in college... I?m not the only one who feels the same way. It?s even worse than a bad math teacher. A student like me, to show work, would need one of those writing tablets. > On Mar 23, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 11:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >> But our local public school is not currently read to do in-home zero-cost testing, which are two of the requirements. >> > > Open book tests are pretty simple to implement. Try to make most of the questions narrative if possible, including "show your work" for more math-heavy questions. Warn students that answers will be compared, so anyone who simply copies someone else's answer will be found out. Students who cheat rarely put more effort into it than that. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 212890 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1271082 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 21:24:30 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:24:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Buy the gun now if you think it is the right decision (not suggesting you panic however). I say this because I've seen first hand them just remove the ability to do so in CT until further notice. I pussyfooted around with waiting to get one, and while I did go in Saturday to a gun shop that had remaining stock, I actually decided against it because you should really fire whatever you are going to buy first to see how it suits you, and I didn't have the opportunity. Making my decision easier was also the fact that there was no ammo left! I still have a rifle in the house so I'm not completely unprotected, but I was looking to get a handgun. A few additional comments: 1) Ammo if you can find it, will be A LOT more expensive than it was a week or two ago. 9mm ammo went from $180/1000 to $300/1000 at the local shop over the course of a week before it all sold out. The guy told me they are making ammo 24 hours a day now with 3 full shifts at the manufacturers (normally a 1-2 shift day) and still can't meet demand. 2) I don't know your familiarity with guns, but PLEASE learn how to operate one safely before buying one. You rarely get a do-over with a gun. I won't harp on this too much since I don't know your background, but if you've never fired one, PLEASE be careful. 3) If you have the ability, please go to a range and rent a number to try first (with instruction), please do so before buying anything. It will help you answer a lot of questions you may have. Apologies if you already knew all this stuff. I think it is better to be prepared and never need to use a gun, than to not have one when you need it. I regret not being better about it myself earlier in this unfolding crisis, and not going to fire weapons at the range while I still had time. Again though, I'm not encouraging panic. If I was actually that worried about this situation, I would have bought one of the ones I looked at Saturday, as they both looked and felt great, but I wanted to fire them before deciding even knowing I probably won't be able to for at least a month. Personally, I think the US is at the far right of the curve by June 1st in terms of this virus still being an issue. I'm more worried about the massive amount of economic damage being done right now by virus countermeasures, but that's probably a topic for another thread. On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 5:09 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > With the way things are going where I live, my boyfriend and I are > considering buying a gun, but not really sure is we can afford it. > > One of our roommates feels the same. > > The other thinks we are crazy. > > At this point I can just walk up the street and buy one. > > The important thing is, I think, if people actually WOULD stay home, they > won?t need to enforce it in a draconian way. But people are too selfish to > act in their own best interests. > > For example: people who think wearing seatbelts doesn?t look cool. > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 23, 2020, at 11:55 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] amendment I > > > > >?NJ is already getting sued for making it impossible to buy firearms > under the close down as a direct violation of the 2nd? > > > > > > They are selling like hotcakes out here. Sales of AR-15s were brisk > during the previous administration, but slumped in the current one. Now I > am told 5.56 NATO ammo is getting hard to find and there may be > profiteering taking place. I don?t need any .223 cal so I haven?t seen it > firsthand. > > > > NJ is causing the gunsmith to lose a lotta business at a time when she > would otherwise be going like a bat outta hell. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon Mar 23 21:05:22 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:05:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 Message-ID: <20200323140522.Horde.7S7nMyU87r0vEc11xUNfWL0@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Keith Henson: > On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 9:13 PM spike wrote: > > snip > >> The suggestion was made that we do that for a day. It extended to >> about a week. We have had enough. You said your piece. > > What's amusing is that I made a post that was *much* more politically > incorrect and it generated no followup comments at all. I have been > on and off this list since it started. Perhaps the current members do > not grok what I write about. Keith, a dear-departed friend of mine once told me that for philosophers to engage in politics amounted to "getting down in the mud to wrestle with pigs." Perhaps nobody wanted to mud-wrestle you over racism? I understand why you think racism is rational. I would say rather that it was once convenient but has, with the advent of culture become obsolete, unnecessary, and ultimately futile. I get EP POV that back when we were hunter-gatherers, obvious morphological differences were indicative of less-relatedness and therefore intolerance of morphological differences was a trait that was, in our distant past, selected for. What I am trying to tell you is that memes >> genes at this point in our natural history. So that you have brothers killing brothers everywhere that you look: Israeli vs. Palestinian, Northern-Irish Protestant vs Southern-Irish Catholic, East-side Krips vs. west-side Bloods. Racism is these days just one more difference among countless others, some as arbitrary as the clothing color that you wear that can be used to justify violence. Is that rational? I don't know . . . is finding excuses i.e. differences to justify coercion, oppression or violence against your fellow man rational? In a zero-sum scramble for the resources of a single planet, maybe. For race to colonize other stars? Maybe not. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 21:57:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:57:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: But people are too selfish to act in their own best interests. Ballard Can something be an oxymoron and still true? bill w On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 4:10 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > With the way things are going where I live, my boyfriend and I are > considering buying a gun, but not really sure is we can afford it. > > One of our roommates feels the same. > > The other thinks we are crazy. > > At this point I can just walk up the street and buy one. > > The important thing is, I think, if people actually WOULD stay home, they > won?t need to enforce it in a draconian way. But people are too selfish to > act in their own best interests. > > For example: people who think wearing seatbelts doesn?t look cool. > > SR Ballard > > On Mar 23, 2020, at 11:55 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] amendment I > > > > >?NJ is already getting sued for making it impossible to buy firearms > under the close down as a direct violation of the 2nd? > > > > > > They are selling like hotcakes out here. Sales of AR-15s were brisk > during the previous administration, but slumped in the current one. Now I > am told 5.56 NATO ammo is getting hard to find and there may be > profiteering taking place. I don?t need any .223 cal so I haven?t seen it > firsthand. > > > > NJ is causing the gunsmith to lose a lotta business at a time when she > would otherwise be going like a bat outta hell. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 22:00:38 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:00:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 2:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Buy the gun now if you think it is the right decision (not suggesting you > panic however). I say this because I've seen first hand them just remove > the ability to do so in CT until further notice. > My hunch is that most of the gun store lockdowns that are going to happen, have already happened. I know that gun-only stores in CA are being locked, while Walmart is allowed to stay open specifically because it sells groceries too...though I don't know if they've been asked to lock their gun department. (I haven't had reason to go inside since the lockdown.) That said, most people who believe there is extra need for self-defense during this crisis are probably flat wrong. I've heard people positing there are going to be riots and home invasions when (not if) the grocery stores run out of stuff...but the stores continue to be in supply, and there's no sign of increased riots (aside from hoarders fighting over toilet paper, and even those fights only happen inside the stores) or home invasions. > 1) Ammo if you can find it, will be A LOT more expensive than it was a > week or two ago. 9mm ammo went from $180/1000 to $300/1000 at the local > shop over the course of a week before it all sold out. The guy told me > they are making ammo 24 hours a day now with 3 full shifts at the > manufacturers (normally a 1-2 shift day) and still can't meet demand. > As someone who doesn't own a gun and probably won't for a long time if ever, how much harder is it to buy ammo online and have it delivered than, say, food or gadgets? > 2) I don't know your familiarity with guns, but PLEASE learn how to > operate one safely before buying one. You rarely get a do-over with a > gun. I won't harp on this too much since I don't know your background, but > if you've never fired one, PLEASE be careful. > Echoing this, and this has been cited as part of the reason for locking down sales to new gun owners: with the ranges closed, they can't get safety training. Even I've had basic range training (or the equivalent: out in the wilds with my dad), and again, I don't own a gun and probably won't for a good long time. > Personally, I think the US is at the far right of the curve by June 1st in > terms of this virus still being an issue. I'm more worried about the > massive amount of economic damage being done right now by virus > countermeasures, but that's probably a topic for another thread. > Damage done by countermeasures is the topic of this thread. More for damage to liberties than economic damage directly, but the two are linked. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 23:17:47 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 19:17:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 3:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > When I joined this group one of my main reasons was to get some input > relating to psychology. In particular: just what changes in humans did we > want? Increase IQ, bolster immune system, etc. Change our personalities? > I got nowhere. I don't recall one person who replied to that post. I was > flabbergasted and dumbfounded. Still am. Always open to discuss that topic > at any length. > > For instance: should we be shorter? Thinner? More introverted? > Different strokes for different folks. The goal isn't to make everyone "better" in the same way, it's to give people the ability to change what they want to change about themselves. What would I change about myself? I could be the next John Clark, making sure everyone knows the answer to that, but that would quickly become tedious. -Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 23:30:30 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 19:30:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 6:10 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > As someone who doesn't own a gun and probably won't for a long time if > ever, how much harder is it to buy ammo online and have it delivered than, > say, food or gadgets? > Buying ammo online is easier and cheaper than buying it in stores. -Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 23:49:06 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:49:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace wrote: snip > For instance: should we be shorter? Thinner? More introverted? This is the wrong class of questions for EP. We can ask why we are of the size and shape (or rather a range of size and shape). That's straightforward evolutionary biology. Humans come in a range of sizes and shapes that have been selected by evolution. Which is to say that the humans on the edge of the distribution for height don't reproduce as well as those closer to the center of the distribution. Our psychological traits such as introversion have also been selected.by evolution. Intelligence too. Statistically, people far from the center of the intelligence distribution don't reproduce as well as those nearer the center. It's fairly clear that people are not likely to reproduce who are too low on the scale, but it is also true that really smart people don't reproduce very well either. Of course, the selection has gone on forever. One of the things you have to watch is a mismatch between present conditions and the time a trait was selected. Capture-bonding is something that seldom contributes to reproductive success today, but in the past, it was so critical that it became universal. I get the impression that you are not up on this subject as much as you would like to be. Want a list of books? Keith From avant at sollegro.com Mon Mar 23 22:16:54 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:16:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: <1857826583.607249.1585001185472@mail.yahoo.com> References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> <1857826583.607249.1585001185472@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20200323151654.Horde.S42_IZlO2B_7BigQz4qbLrx@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting SR Ballard by way of Bill Wallace: > But people are too selfish to act in their own best interests.? ?Ballard > > Can something be an oxymoron and still true?? ?bill w Yes. When an oxymoron is true, it is called a paradox. There are only several dozen paradoxes known. Henceforth, this particular paradox should be called Ballard's Paradox. :-) Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 00:03:38 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:03:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: <20200323151654.Horde.S42_IZlO2B_7BigQz4qbLrx@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> <1857826583.607249.1585001185472@mail.yahoo.com> <20200323151654.Horde.S42_IZlO2B_7BigQz4qbLrx@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 4:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Quoting SR Ballard by way of Bill Wallace: > > But people are too selfish to act in their own best interests. Ballard > > > > Can something be an oxymoron and still true? bill w > > Yes. When an oxymoron is true, it is called a paradox. There are only > several dozen paradoxes known. Henceforth, this particular paradox > should be called Ballard's Paradox. :-) > Words being the way they are, someone someday may write a ballad about it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 00:39:36 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 19:39:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] amendment I In-Reply-To: References: <00a201d60122$bb1ca1e0$3155e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00c701d60128$ca6bcb70$5f436250$@rainier66.com> <011701d60133$d10c4350$7324c9f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: So, all ranges are closed here until at least April 9. All gun stores are closing tonight. I am familiar with guns, as I grew up shooting them. But I agree, yes, people should be careful, and I too am worried more about the ?afterwards?. I can likely buy a gun at that point. SR Ballard > On Mar 23, 2020, at 4:24 PM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > Buy the gun now if you think it is the right decision (not suggesting you panic however). I say this because I've seen first hand them just remove the ability to do so in CT until further notice. I pussyfooted around with waiting to get one, and while I did go in Saturday to a gun shop that had remaining stock, I actually decided against it because you should really fire whatever you are going to buy first to see how it suits you, and I didn't have the opportunity. Making my decision easier was also the fact that there was no ammo left! I still have a rifle in the house so I'm not completely unprotected, but I was looking to get a handgun. > > A few additional comments: > 1) Ammo if you can find it, will be A LOT more expensive than it was a week or two ago. 9mm ammo went from $180/1000 to $300/1000 at the local shop over the course of a week before it all sold out. The guy told me they are making ammo 24 hours a day now with 3 full shifts at the manufacturers (normally a 1-2 shift day) and still can't meet demand. > > 2) I don't know your familiarity with guns, but PLEASE learn how to operate one safely before buying one. You rarely get a do-over with a gun. I won't harp on this too much since I don't know your background, but if you've never fired one, PLEASE be careful. > > 3) If you have the ability, please go to a range and rent a number to try first (with instruction), please do so before buying anything. It will help you answer a lot of questions you may have. > > Apologies if you already knew all this stuff. I think it is better to be prepared and never need to use a gun, than to not have one when you need it. I regret not being better about it myself earlier in this unfolding crisis, and not going to fire weapons at the range while I still had time. Again though, I'm not encouraging panic. If I was actually that worried about this situation, I would have bought one of the ones I looked at Saturday, as they both looked and felt great, but I wanted to fire them before deciding even knowing I probably won't be able to for at least a month. > > Personally, I think the US is at the far right of the curve by June 1st in terms of this virus still being an issue. I'm more worried about the massive amount of economic damage being done right now by virus countermeasures, but that's probably a topic for another thread. > >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 5:09 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> With the way things are going where I live, my boyfriend and I are considering buying a gun, but not really sure is we can afford it. >> >> One of our roommates feels the same. >> >> The other thinks we are crazy. >> >> At this point I can just walk up the street and buy one. >> >> The important thing is, I think, if people actually WOULD stay home, they won?t need to enforce it in a draconian way. But people are too selfish to act in their own best interests. >> >> For example: people who think wearing seatbelts doesn?t look cool. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Mar 23, 2020, at 11:55 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >>> Subject: Re: [ExI] amendment I >>> >>> >>> >>> >?NJ is already getting sued for making it impossible to buy firearms under the close down as a direct violation of the 2nd? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> They are selling like hotcakes out here. Sales of AR-15s were brisk during the previous administration, but slumped in the current one. Now I am told 5.56 NATO ammo is getting hard to find and there may be profiteering taking place. I don?t need any .223 cal so I haven?t seen it firsthand. >>> >>> >>> >>> NJ is causing the gunsmith to lose a lotta business at a time when she would otherwise be going like a bat outta hell. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 03:21:33 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 23:21:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:51 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Our psychological traits such as introversion have also been > selected.by evolution. Intelligence too. Statistically, people far > from the center of the intelligence distribution don't reproduce as > well as those nearer the center. It's fairly clear that people are > not likely to reproduce who are too low on the scale, but it is also > true that really smart people don't reproduce very well either. ### You say that current IQ levels are optimized for maximum fitness around average IQ, similar to height. I disagree. IQ is under natural conditions adaptive throughout the whole range of variability. The reason why very high IQ is maladaptive in women (but not in men) *today* is because of new and old cultural factors - the combination of contraception, hypergamy and gender equality, perhaps other factors as well. High IQ does not force a trade-off on general health, sex drive, ambition or other important traits. In fact, high IQ persons are likely to be overall healthier, stronger, faster, more robust than lower IQ persons, over the whole range of the trait. In comparison, height does force significant trade-offs in important characteristics, such as energy use. While being taller makes it easier to win fights, it also makes it much more difficult to find enough food to thrive. At some level of height above average this increased energy cost creates negative selection for height. This is why we are not all giants. Further, height is a biologically "simple" characteristic - just more or less bone growth at the right time that can be effectively regulated by just a few genes - e.g. by variations in growth hormone receptors. IQ is different from height. Under almost all natural environmental conditions and in all social positions a more intelligent person will be fitter than a less intelligent one. This means that there is some positive selection for IQ at all levels. However, IQ depends on a large number of genes working perfectly together to create a very complex and finely tuned structure - and the more genes there are, the more likely that some of them will have more or less deleterious mutations. The fewer damaged genes you have, the higher IQ you can achieve. We are all afflicted by literally thousands of rare variants that collectively limit our intelligence and it takes very harsh selection and endogamy to significantly reduce such polygenic afflictions. This is why we are not all geniuses - the historical selection pressure in favor of high IQ wasn't strong enough to overcome error accumulation, except in a few small groups subjected to harsh selection with endogamy, such as the Ashkenazim or the Parsees. As you mentioned, mismatch between the EEA and today's world often exists. Today's conditions are clearly dysgenic with respect to IQ. But the world needs more intelligence! If the current situation continued, in a couple of hundred years we could expect the "Idiocracy" to end our civilization as we know it. Luckily, AI and uploading will soon make biological human IQ a moot issue. It's still interesting to think about IQ levels that will be established after the AI or uploading singularity. I would expect that there will be niches available for minds with different levels of IQ, based on energy/IQ trade-offs, similar to what Robin mentioned in his Age of Em, except that I think the differences will be much larger than what Robin expects. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Mar 24 12:54:29 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:54:29 +0000 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 57 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e7a6511-df1a-184a-698c-fb32e807a4a4@zaiboc.net> On 23/03/2020 21:20, John K Clark wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 4:26 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > ?The genome is not a blueprint" > > > True, the genome is the recipe. And in the real world nothing can > follow instructions perfectly so 2 cooks will produce 2 cakes that are > different even if they're working from the same recipe. > It's not like that, either, really. It's more like an adaptive recipe that can see what you're doing (and a bunch of other things, like the time and the weather and the price of eggs) and changes in response, in real-time. Oh, and it's a recipe without a name or description, so you don't know what you're going to get until it's finished. And of course, this is a bad analogy anyway, unless you regard the cake as the entire organism, in which case it's just a fairly bad analogy. When we say 'a gene for x' what it really means is a gene which has been observed to have some connection to the characteristic x. Mendel and his peas might have kick-started the science of genetics, but in the bigger picture, an understanding of mendelian inheritance can be more of a hindrance than a help. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Mar 24 13:13:10 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:13:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23/03/2020 21:20, billw wrote: > Well Ben, what can we do?? If I say that my height is mostly genetic > am I wrong?? If I say that learning my name is mostly nurture, an I > wrong?? How could I express myself without giving a lecture? ?bill w I don't know. I don't know how to express it in a concise and easy way. "is my height mostly genetic?" is not, imo, a valid question, though. It seems to mean a lot more than it actually does. The same with learning being 'mostly nurture'. 'Nurture' isn't the right word to use in the first place, and neither is 'nature'. We're talking about the interaction between genomes and a dynamic environment, with many factors involved in both. I have no idea how to conceptually condense and simplify a process that changes the sex of crocodiles depending on the temperature of their eggs, for example. I do know that characterising it in terms of 'nature vs. nature' is not helpful. Maybe, as with many things, we need a new vocabulary. I don't know what it is. I just know that the old one is unhelpful, to say the least. Maybe a lecture is a necessary part of the process. Who just made the jump from Ptolemaic to Copernican cosmology without a few lectures being involved? Very few, I suspect. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 15:00:02 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 11:00:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 198, Issue 57 In-Reply-To: <0e7a6511-df1a-184a-698c-fb32e807a4a4@zaiboc.net> References: <0e7a6511-df1a-184a-698c-fb32e807a4a4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 8:57 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> When we say 'a gene for x' what it really means is a gene which has been > observed to have some connection to the characteristic x. * Yeah, but forget genetics, that's what we always mean when we say X caused Y. A nail (X) caused a flat tire (Y), but a nail by itself is insufficient to produce a flat tire, you also need a tire. *> Mendel and his peas might have kick-started the science of genetics, but > in the bigger picture, an understanding of mendelian inheritance can be > more of a hindrance than a help.* I certainly don't think that's true. Mendel didn't tell us everything about inheritance, it's more complicated than what Mendel thought, but he told us a lot more than what we knew before. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 16:05:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 11:05:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, thanks for trying, but that doesn't help at all. In fact, it makes it worse. Someone asks me if nature or nurture mostly affects height and I say "Well, given an equal environment for all the subjects in the study, which is impossible, their genes will largely determine the adult height, although the terms Nature and Nurture are all wrong as is my answer." What are people supposed to do with that? bill w On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 8:15 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 23/03/2020 21:20, billw wrote: > > Well Ben, what can we do? If I say that my height is mostly genetic > > am I wrong? If I say that learning my name is mostly nurture, an I > > wrong? How could I express myself without giving a lecture? bill w > > I don't know. I don't know how to express it in a concise and easy way. > > "is my height mostly genetic?" is not, imo, a valid question, though. It > seems to mean a lot more than it actually does. The same with learning > being 'mostly nurture'. > > 'Nurture' isn't the right word to use in the first place, and neither is > 'nature'. We're talking about the interaction between genomes and a > dynamic environment, with many factors involved in both. I have no idea > how to conceptually condense and simplify a process that changes the sex > of crocodiles depending on the temperature of their eggs, for example. I > do know that characterising it in terms of 'nature vs. nature' is not > helpful. > > Maybe, as with many things, we need a new vocabulary. I don't know what > it is. I just know that the old one is unhelpful, to say the least. > > Maybe a lecture is a necessary part of the process. Who just made the > jump from Ptolemaic to Copernican cosmology without a few lectures being > involved? Very few, I suspect. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 16:10:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 11:10:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Different strokes for different folks. The goal isn't to make everyone "better" in the same way, it's to give people the ability to change what they want to change about themselves. What would I change about myself? I could be the next John Clark, making sure everyone knows the answer to that, but that would quickly become tedious. -Dave We are talking at cross purposes. I am talking about genetic manipulation of ova and sperm. I do think I would make everyone better in the same way: far better immune systems, for instance. And the changes will be in the fertilized egg, not a borned person. But I suppose that genetic changes to adults could happen through epigenetics. bill w On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 6:20 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 3:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> When I joined this group one of my main reasons was to get some input >> relating to psychology. In particular: just what changes in humans did we >> want? Increase IQ, bolster immune system, etc. Change our personalities? >> I got nowhere. I don't recall one person who replied to that post. I was >> flabbergasted and dumbfounded. Still am. Always open to discuss that topic >> at any length. >> >> For instance: should we be shorter? Thinner? More introverted? >> > > Different strokes for different folks. The goal isn't to make everyone > "better" in the same way, it's to give people the ability to change what > they want to change about themselves. > > What would I change about myself? I could be the next John Clark, making > sure everyone knows the answer to that, but that would quickly become > tedious. > > -Dave > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 16:40:54 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 17:40:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The genes are a blueprint but nature is a sloppy builder with dyslexia and acalculia. The result is you :) /Henrik Den tis 24 mars 2020 17:09William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > Well, thanks for trying, but that doesn't help at all. In fact, it makes > it worse. Someone asks me if nature or nurture mostly affects height and I > say "Well, given an equal environment for all the subjects in the study, > which is impossible, their genes will largely determine the adult height, > although the terms Nature and Nurture are all wrong as is my answer." > What are people supposed to do with that? > > bill w > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 8:15 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 23/03/2020 21:20, billw wrote: >> > Well Ben, what can we do? If I say that my height is mostly genetic >> > am I wrong? If I say that learning my name is mostly nurture, an I >> > wrong? How could I express myself without giving a lecture? bill w >> >> I don't know. I don't know how to express it in a concise and easy way. >> >> "is my height mostly genetic?" is not, imo, a valid question, though. It >> seems to mean a lot more than it actually does. The same with learning >> being 'mostly nurture'. >> >> 'Nurture' isn't the right word to use in the first place, and neither is >> 'nature'. We're talking about the interaction between genomes and a >> dynamic environment, with many factors involved in both. I have no idea >> how to conceptually condense and simplify a process that changes the sex >> of crocodiles depending on the temperature of their eggs, for example. I >> do know that characterising it in terms of 'nature vs. nature' is not >> helpful. >> >> Maybe, as with many things, we need a new vocabulary. I don't know what >> it is. I just know that the old one is unhelpful, to say the least. >> >> Maybe a lecture is a necessary part of the process. Who just made the >> jump from Ptolemaic to Copernican cosmology without a few lectures being >> involved? Very few, I suspect. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 16:49:25 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 11:49:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think high-IQ women actually are actually choosing to not have children, rather than lack of appropriate mates. They believe (correctly in most cases) that children will limit their ability to do the kind of work they enjoy doing. Without nannies, there won?t really be anyone to take care of the kids, as she likely selected a high-IQ mate. However, lots of people who are high-IQ show some traits that might belong to the ?Asperger? family, and their children are likely to have more of these traits than either individual parent. This would limit the ability of such children to produce offspring. In the past, a high-IQ male or female likely ended up producing offspring with a median-IQ individual, while lower IQ individuals tended to live and die in poverty, or of their own stupidity. I believe this slow increase in intelligence might be more productive, by retaining diversity of genes and reducing the expression of negative traits in offspring, ensuring continued fitness of gene-line. SR Ballard > On Mar 23, 2020, at 10:21 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:51 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Our psychological traits such as introversion have also been >> selected.by evolution. Intelligence too. Statistically, people far >> from the center of the intelligence distribution don't reproduce as >> well as those nearer the center. It's fairly clear that people are >> not likely to reproduce who are too low on the scale, but it is also >> true that really smart people don't reproduce very well either. > > ### You say that current IQ levels are optimized for maximum fitness around average IQ, similar to height. I disagree. > > IQ is under natural conditions adaptive throughout the whole range of variability. The reason why very high IQ is maladaptive in women (but not in men) *today* is because of new and old cultural factors - the combination of contraception, hypergamy and gender equality, perhaps other factors as well. High IQ does not force a trade-off on general health, sex drive, ambition or other important traits. In fact, high IQ persons are likely to be overall healthier, stronger, faster, more robust than lower IQ persons, over the whole range of the trait. > > In comparison, height does force significant trade-offs in important characteristics, such as energy use. While being taller makes it easier to win fights, it also makes it much more difficult to find enough food to thrive. At some level of height above average this increased energy cost creates negative selection for height. This is why we are not all giants. Further, height is a biologically "simple" characteristic - just more or less bone growth at the right time that can be effectively regulated by just a few genes - e.g. by variations in growth hormone receptors. > > IQ is different from height. Under almost all natural environmental conditions and in all social positions a more intelligent person will be fitter than a less intelligent one. This means that there is some positive selection for IQ at all levels. However, IQ depends on a large number of genes working perfectly together to create a very complex and finely tuned structure - and the more genes there are, the more likely that some of them will have more or less deleterious mutations. The fewer damaged genes you have, the higher IQ you can achieve. We are all afflicted by literally thousands of rare variants that collectively limit our intelligence and it takes very harsh selection and endogamy to significantly reduce such polygenic afflictions. This is why we are not all geniuses - the historical selection pressure in favor of high IQ wasn't strong enough to overcome error accumulation, except in a few small groups subjected to harsh selection with endogamy, such as the Ashkenazim or the Parsees. > > As you mentioned, mismatch between the EEA and today's world often exists. Today's conditions are clearly dysgenic with respect to IQ. But the world needs more intelligence! If the current situation continued, in a couple of hundred years we could expect the "Idiocracy" to end our civilization as we know it. Luckily, AI and uploading will soon make biological human IQ a moot issue. > > It's still interesting to think about IQ levels that will be established after the AI or uploading singularity. I would expect that there will be niches available for minds with different levels of IQ, based on energy/IQ trade-offs, similar to what Robin mentioned in his Age of Em, except that I think the differences will be much larger than what Robin expects. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 18:13:32 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:13:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 12:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > We are talking at cross purposes. I am talking about genetic manipulation > of ova and sperm. > Perhaps, but you didn't say that. :-) > I do think I would make everyone better in the same way: far better > immune systems, for instance. > Nanobots. > And the changes will be in the fertilized egg, not a borned person. But > I suppose that genetic changes to adults could happen through epigenetics. > Genetic and epigenetic changes aren't the only way to change. Augmentation could be huge. Eyeglasses and contact lenses are already common and clothing is pretty much mandatory. Google Glass was a hint of what could be done a simple wearable: full-time video stream to the cloud, augmented reality in the form of overlaid navigation directions, facial recognition/identification, translation, etc. Add voice input or subvocal input and you could set alarms, create reminders, place orders, do searches, etc. These could easily increase IQ. Some added AI could facilitate behavior/personality modification. Now think 50 years down the road... What could wearables and implants do? If nano ever progresses sufficiently, implementing biological changes in borned people might be doable. Of course, the ultimate flexibility would be achievable by uploading. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 19:48:55 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:48:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of course, the ultimate flexibility would be achievable by uploading. Dave What about what a person is without augmentations? If you get uploaded you are just a long string of code, right? So you can be anything you want to be - just change the code. Now everyone is the same - the best code can do. What is the point of that? You are just a computer that is no better and no worse than any other computer. There is nothing distinctive about you that cannot be duplicated by some one else. bill w On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:16 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 12:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> We are talking at cross purposes. I am talking about genetic >> manipulation of ova and sperm. >> > > Perhaps, but you didn't say that. :-) > > >> I do think I would make everyone better in the same way: far better >> immune systems, for instance. >> > > Nanobots. > > >> And the changes will be in the fertilized egg, not a borned person. >> But I suppose that genetic changes to adults could happen through >> epigenetics. >> > > Genetic and epigenetic changes aren't the only way to change. Augmentation > could be huge. Eyeglasses and contact lenses are already common and > clothing is pretty much mandatory. Google Glass was a hint of what could be > done a simple wearable: full-time video stream to the cloud, augmented > reality in the form of overlaid navigation directions, facial > recognition/identification, translation, etc. Add voice input or subvocal > input and you could set alarms, create reminders, place orders, do > searches, etc. These could easily increase IQ. Some added AI could > facilitate behavior/personality modification. Now think 50 years down the > road... What could wearables and implants do? If nano ever progresses > sufficiently, implementing biological changes in borned people might be > doable. Of course, the ultimate flexibility would be achievable by > uploading. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 20:08:48 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 16:08:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 3:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If you get uploaded you are just a long string of code, right? So you > can be anything you want to be - just change the code. Now everyone is > the same - the best code can do. What is the point of that? You are > just a computer that is no better and no worse than any other computer. There > is nothing distinctive about you that cannot be duplicated by some one > else. bill w > True, however that's not much different to the situation right now, there is nothing distinctive about a hydrogen atom in your body, it's the same as a hydrogen atom in my body. The only difference between you and me is how those atoms are arranged. Currently there is only one chunk of matter in the observable universe that behaves in a Williamflynnwallaceien way, but that is not due to any fundamental law of physics but is just caused by today's technological limitations so it need not always be true. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 20:24:10 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 16:24:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 3:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What about what a person is without augmentations? If you get uploaded > you are just a long string of code, right? > You'd be, in one sense, a combination of code and data. That's what an outside observer would "see". Inside the simulation you could be whatever the simulation allowed. You could adjust your appearance as desired: tall, short, thin, fat, male, female, hermaphrodite, human, dog, amoeba, incorporeal, ..., essentially unlimited, but the simulation would probably have to impose reasonable limits. > So you can be anything you want to be - just change the code. Now everyone > is the same - the best code can do. > Wait, what? If everyone can tweak themselves--and we're not just talking appearance--what makes you think everyone's going to choose the same "ideal" form? Everyone has their own preferences. > What is the point of that? You are just a computer that is no better and > no worse than any other computer. > No, no, no... you don't become a computer, you become an entity run by a computer. > There is nothing distinctive about you that cannot be duplicated by > some one else. > Well, there could well be rules against copying what others do: e.g., copyright and anti-fraud laws, simulation rules that you agree to before your simulation is instantiated, etc. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 21:32:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 16:32:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wait, what? If everyone can tweak themselves--and we're not just talking appearance--what makes you think everyone's going to choose the same "ideal" form? Everyone has their own preferences Dave How could there be any competition among people? If there were still jobs done by 'humans' then if they wanted someone to do matrix algebra you'd just change your code to enable that ability. Of course the true computers would likely be doing that. So are we envisioning a life of play while AIs run the planet? I keep coming back to reproduction. Evolution is a game with reproduction as the goal. How does that fit in with uploaded people? I can also see a role for psychologists and programmers. They would help the uploaded person decide on what he wanted to be and the programmers would achieve that. I just have not thought about this very much and so my ideas are likely to be primitive. As for nanobots, isn't it more likely to be manufactured viruses and bacteria? bill w On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 3:26 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 3:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> What about what a person is without augmentations? If you get uploaded >> you are just a long string of code, right? >> > > You'd be, in one sense, a combination of code and data. That's what an > outside observer would "see". Inside the simulation you could be whatever > the simulation allowed. You could adjust your appearance as desired: tall, > short, thin, fat, male, female, hermaphrodite, human, dog, amoeba, > incorporeal, ..., essentially unlimited, but the simulation would probably > have to impose reasonable limits. > > >> So you can be anything you want to be - just change the code. Now everyone >> is the same - the best code can do. >> > > Wait, what? If everyone can tweak themselves--and we're not just talking > appearance--what makes you think everyone's going to choose the same > "ideal" form? Everyone has their own preferences. > > >> What is the point of that? You are just a computer that is no better and >> no worse than any other computer. >> > > No, no, no... you don't become a computer, you become an entity run by a > computer. > > >> There is nothing distinctive about you that cannot be duplicated by >> some one else. >> > > Well, there could well be rules against copying what others do: e.g., > copyright and anti-fraud laws, simulation rules that you agree to before > your simulation is instantiated, etc. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 23:41:27 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:41:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, 12:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > What would I change about myself? I could be the next John Clark, making > sure everyone knows the answer to that, but that would quickly become > tedious. > Seriously? While we all know John has the fortitude to take endless abuse (even perhaps enjoying the fight) - I am tired of it. There was once a general etiquette to not put people's name in the subject line. With all the energy-sapping "stuff" going on, can't we be nicer to each other? Meh, maybe I'm just more sensitive than usual .. I'll concede that, certainly. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 00:37:29 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 17:37:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:51 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Our psychological traits such as introversion have also been > selected.by evolution. Intelligence too. Statistically, people far > from the center of the intelligence distribution don't reproduce as > well as those nearer the center. It's fairly clear that people are > not likely to reproduce who are too low on the scale, but it is also > true that really smart people don't reproduce very well either. ### You say that current IQ levels are optimized for maximum fitness around average IQ, similar to height. I disagree. snip ### IQ is different from height. How? If measured, do both fall on a bell curve? Are they both due to genes? As a general rule, any trait that falls on such a curve is being trimmed on both sides. If it were not, then the center peak would drift until both ends were being trimmed. ### Under almost all natural environmental conditions and in all social positions a more intelligent person will be fitter than a less intelligent one. Perhaps. I don't think IQ was directly selected in the events that led up to the industrial revolution. Clark thinks it was pulled along in the selection for wealth that he investigated but it was only a component of the suite of personality traits that included literacy, numeracy, willingness to put off rewards, and low levels of impulsiveness plus other traits like alcohol resistance. ### This means that there is some positive selection for IQ at all levels. However, IQ depends on a large number of genes working perfectly together to create a very complex and finely tuned structure - and the more genes there are, the more likely that some of them will have more or less deleterious mutations. The fewer damaged genes you have, the higher IQ you can achieve. Can you point to a study where this is discussed? I never heard this theory before. Keith From sparge at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 01:30:01 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 21:30:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads (was: Covid) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 5:35 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > How could there be any competition among people? > Assuming competition is desired, devising and implementing the changes necessary to optimize oneself for a given task would likely be nontrivial and would take time, resources, money, etc., to implement. Just because you're in a simulation doesn't mean everything is magic: snap your fingers and BAM, you're the optimal cake baker or CPA or lawyer or whatever. For games, players could agree on various constraints in advance. If there were still jobs done by 'humans' then if they wanted someone to do > matrix algebra you'd just change your code to enable that ability. Of > course the true computers would likely be doing that. > Yeah, that's not a good example. A better one would be creating a work of art: painting a picture, writing a song, writing a poem. Those are things that a few people do well and, so far, only people do well. > So are we envisioning a life of play while AIs run the planet? > Why not have people inside simulations run the planet, if they could do a better job than AIs? Or at least not fuck it up? But what's wrong with moving beyond the constant struggle to meet biological needs? If I could have chosen a life of leisure over a life of 40 hours/week struggling to keep the family going. > I keep coming back to reproduction. Evolution is a game > with reproduction as the goal. How does that fit in with uploaded people? > It depends on the rules of the simulation. If individuals can change quickly, dramatically, and intentionally, what's the point of trying to implement something slow and random like natural selection? I can also see a role for psychologists and programmers. They would help > the uploaded person decide on what he wanted to be and the programmers > would achieve that. I just have not thought about this very much and so my > ideas are likely to be primitive. > I'd imagine there'd be a need for psychologists and programmers, though implementing changes would quickly become more like hiring a designer than hiring a coder. There'd likely be a marketplace of modifications and upgrades that have already been implemented. Like, you wouldn't hire a furniture maker, a rug weaver, a paint chemist, etc., to redo your living room today. You'd either pick those things out yourself or work with a professional interior designer who knows what's available, what would work well together, and what would meet your needs. As for nanobots, isn't it more likely to be manufactured viruses and > bacteria? > Is there a difference? I mean, those are biological nanobots. Ideally we'd want to move past playing by the rules of biochemistry in order to do non-biological things. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Mar 25 12:49:40 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:49:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2fea8322-d4fe-facd-3657-7adab0e82c3d@zaiboc.net> On 24/03/2020 21:32, billw wrote: > Someone asks me if nature or nurture mostly affects height and I say ... You say "Sorry, you're asking the wrong question". Then point out why. Hopefully they'll realise that it's actually an invalid question because it assumes something false about the way biology works. It would probably help to be armed with some examples of how environment modifies the genetic material, which can also modify the environment, etc., and how one gene can code for a product that's used in different ways in different places and times (haemoglobin might be a very simple example). It's not even a case of imperfect execution of instructions, as several people here have said. Sure, that happens, but that's not the point. The point is deep and constant interaction between genetic material and metabolism, plus several different aspects of the environment, at different levels. We might label a particular sequence 'the gene for height', but what does that mean when we discover* that actually it has a lot more to do with someone's ability to taste mint as having a cool sensation, as well as being intimately connected with nephron development in the kidneys and the propensity for developing tinnitus in later life? And almost certainly dozens of other things as well. One gene-product expressed in one tissue often has completely different interactions and effects to the same gene-product in a different tissue. Or the same one, at different stages of life. Much more than facebook relationship statuses, biology actually does deserve the label "It's complicated". Simple answers rarely work, and simple questions are rarely applicable. To go back to the original question, though, and what might be a reasonable answer, how about "Both. It's always both, never** just one or the other (or even 'mostly' one or the other)"? That would be a good start. Asking if 'Nature' is more important than 'Nurture' is like asking "Is Warp more important than Weft?". * I'm making these examples up, to illustrate the point. They aren't at all far-fetched, though, and we're finding out more all the time about just how damned complicated all this is. ** and of course, that's probably a simplification, as well! -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Mar 25 13:00:25 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:00:25 +0000 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/03/2020 21:32, billw wrote: > I do think I would make everyone better in the same way I'm certain you'd get a /lot/ of resistance to that! Apart from anything else, this smacks of coercion. But also, it leads to a monoculture, which is always a bad idea. Better to provide people with as wide a variety of choices as possible imo. Let them decide for themselves, let them choose how far to go, including nowhere at all, and what types of change to choose. I'm pretty sure that if/when uploading became possible, it won't lead to everyone being the same. Far from it, it would enable an explosion of variety that would put the Cambrian to shame. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsa at unsa.edu.ar Wed Mar 25 13:09:16 2020 From: dsa at unsa.edu.ar (Diego Saravia) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:09:16 -0300 Subject: [ExI] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006291X20303661 Stem cells reprogrammed Message-ID: For the first time, scientists have reprogrammed the stem cells of a 114-year-old woman, the oldest donor to date. After first transforming cells from her blood sample into induced pluripotent stem cells (iPSCs), the researchers then generated mesenchymal stem cells, which help to maintain and repair tissues like bone, cartilage and fat. "We set out to answer a big question: Can you reprogram cells this old?" says stem cell biologist Evan Snyder at Sanford Burnham Prebys Medical Discovery Institute in California. "Now we have shown it can be done, and we have a valuable tool for finding the genes and other factors that slow down the aging process." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 13:34:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 08:34:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well In-Reply-To: <2fea8322-d4fe-facd-3657-7adab0e82c3d@zaiboc.net> References: <2fea8322-d4fe-facd-3657-7adab0e82c3d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Both. It's always both, never** just one or the other (or even 'mostly' one or the other)"? That would be a good start. Asking if 'Nature' is more important than 'Nurture' is like asking "Is Warp more important than Weft?". Ben And someone is going to say: " But some fabrics are wider than they are long and vice versa. Surely genes have more to do with the shape of the kidneys than how much I know about Henry VIII even though both are always essential." And I cannot deny that. There was an excellent book of a few years ago "What you can change, and what you can't." Martin Seligman. Short of just how epigenetics works ;and what can change what, we cannot change our genes in major ways - agreed? And unless environment is extreme, one way or another, behaviors, structures of bones, etc. will fall into a certain range with a certain average and so on. Just saying it's both is just not an answer. When we talk about science to the layperson I think we have to lie a bit, exaggerate a bit, and so on - in other words, not really exact answers, but good enough for who they are for. If they want to take several courses in the area they will learn differently. No harm done. bill w On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 7:52 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/03/2020 21:32, billw wrote: > > Someone asks me if nature or nurture mostly affects height and I say ... > > You say "Sorry, you're asking the wrong question". Then point out why. > Hopefully they'll realise that it's actually an invalid question because > it assumes something false about the way biology works. > > It would probably help to be armed with some examples of how environment > modifies the genetic material, which can also modify the environment, > etc., and how one gene can code for a product that's used in different > ways in different places and times (haemoglobin might be a very simple > example). > > It's not even a case of imperfect execution of instructions, as several > people here have said. Sure, that happens, but that's not the point. The > point is deep and constant interaction between genetic material and > metabolism, plus several different aspects of the environment, at > different levels. > > We might label a particular sequence 'the gene for height', but what > does that mean when we discover* that actually it has a lot more to do > with someone's ability to taste mint as having a cool sensation, as well > as being intimately connected with nephron development in the kidneys > and the propensity for developing tinnitus in later life? And almost > certainly dozens of other things as well. One gene-product expressed in > one tissue often has completely different interactions and effects to > the same gene-product in a different tissue. Or the same one, at > different stages of life. > > Much more than facebook relationship statuses, biology actually does > deserve the label "It's complicated". Simple answers rarely work, and > simple questions are rarely applicable. > > To go back to the original question, though, and what might be a > reasonable answer, how about "Both. It's always both, never** just one > or the other (or even 'mostly' one or the other)"? That would be a good > start. > Asking if 'Nature' is more important than 'Nurture' is like asking "Is > Warp more important than Weft?". > > > * I'm making these examples up, to illustrate the point. They aren't at > all far-fetched, though, and we're finding out more all the time about > just how damned complicated all this is. > > ** and of course, that's probably a simplification, as well! > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 14:45:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:45:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What justification can you come up with that results in people having different IQs, given that we can give everyone the maximum? Ditto for all health genes. How we we explain to a person that we could have made them better but we didn't? Tall people are favored in the job market. How could we explain to a short person that we just gave them this disadvantage? Sure, there are plenty of factors that we can let go wild - parent's choice. bill w On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 8:02 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/03/2020 21:32, billw wrote: > > I do think I would make everyone better in the same way > > > I'm certain you'd get a *lot* of resistance to that! > > Apart from anything else, this smacks of coercion. But also, it leads to a > monoculture, which is always a bad idea. > > Better to provide people with as wide a variety of choices as possible > imo. Let them decide for themselves, let them choose how far to go, > including nowhere at all, and what types of change to choose. > > I'm pretty sure that if/when uploading became possible, it won't lead to > everyone being the same. Far from it, it would enable an explosion of > variety that would put the Cambrian to shame. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 15:06:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:06:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates new talk on COVID-19 Message-ID: Bill Gates just gave a new Ted Talk via video conferencing, it starts to get really interesting about 4 minutes in, even more interesting 20 minutes in. Gates says it's too late for the US to avoid virtually shutting down the economy for 6 to 10 weeks if it wants to avoid 3 to 5 million deaths from COVID-19. For reference, 407 thousand American soldiers died in WW2. Bill Gates on COVID-19 John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 25 15:11:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 08:11:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well In-Reply-To: <2fea8322-d4fe-facd-3657-7adab0e82c3d@zaiboc.net> References: <2fea8322-d4fe-facd-3657-7adab0e82c3d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <008601d602b7$a68e6970$f3ab3c50$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Evolution - 'Nature versus Nurture', but random noise as well On 24/03/2020 21:32, billw wrote: >>... Someone asks me if nature or nurture mostly affects height and I say ... >...We might label a particular sequence 'the gene for height', but what does that mean when we discover* ... -- Ben Zaiboc _______________________________________________ I am struck by a photo of ten children I now wish I had a copy. A colleague at Lockheed Martin was the oldest of 10 children. When his family escaped Vietnam in 1979 he was age 16, with the youngest being a less than a year. All got out alive, managed to resettle in California. He was a really short guy, about 5 ft even. When they lined up the children from youngest to oldest 20 yrs later, they go up like a stairstep: the oldest is shortest, and each one is average about an inch taller than the next oldest and about an inch shorter than the next youngest. That one is pretty easy to understand: the South Vietnamese were living on rice and very little of that after the war, but in the USA, they had a very high-fat diet. spike From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 15:26:46 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 08:26:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70F95127-C803-4F89-BC05-ED904CEE327E@gmail.com> Providing people with choices, as Ben wants, doesn?t mean enforcing specific choices. It could be that most (or all?) people given maximum choice would still cluster around the same choice or at least similar choices. To use your example, with IQ, maybe all else being the same, everyone would choose the max here. (If all else is not the same, then trade offs enter the picture. Of course, in an uploading scenario, the trade offs will likely be radically different than the ones experienced now. Of course, right now, people don?t do much trading off between IQ and height or susceptibility to this or that genetic problem; they just happen. But people do trade off between, say, learning a foreign language and having more leisure.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 25, 2020, at 7:48 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > What justification can you come up with that results in people having different IQs, given that we can give everyone the maximum? Ditto for all health genes. How we we explain to a person that we could have made them better but we didn't? Tall people are favored in the job market. How could we explain to a short person that we just gave them this disadvantage? > > Sure, there are plenty of factors that we can let go wild - parent's choice. > > bill w > >> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 8:02 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On 24/03/2020 21:32, billw wrote: >>> I do think I would make everyone better in the same way >> >> I'm certain you'd get a lot of resistance to that! >> >> Apart from anything else, this smacks of coercion. But also, it leads to a monoculture, which is always a bad idea. >> >> Better to provide people with as wide a variety of choices as possible imo. Let them decide for themselves, let them choose how far to go, including nowhere at all, and what types of change to choose. >> >> I'm pretty sure that if/when uploading became possible, it won't lead to everyone being the same. Far from it, it would enable an explosion of variety that would put the Cambrian to shame. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 18:45:00 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 19:45:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <70F95127-C803-4F89-BC05-ED904CEE327E@gmail.com> References: <70F95127-C803-4F89-BC05-ED904CEE327E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh, my. I need to join the subgroup for praising your great leader. How do I do that? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 18:54:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:54:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <70F95127-C803-4F89-BC05-ED904CEE327E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just search for 'white supremacy' and you'll find lots of groups to join. bill w On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 1:48 PM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Oh, my. > I need to join the subgroup for praising your great leader. > How do I do that? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 25 19:00:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:00:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <70F95127-C803-4F89-BC05-ED904CEE327E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008701d602d7$9ab648f0$d022dad0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 Oh, my. I need to join the subgroup for praising your great leader. How do I do that? John Clark is in charge of that, the invitations, the moderation, etc. I do miss the focused subgroups. Those things were so intense and worthwhile in their way. We had them on single-state-to-orbit, guns, openness vs privacy, lots of math ones including one that I think led to BlockChain and BitCoin. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 19:38:10 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:38:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <008701d602d7$9ab648f0$d022dad0$@rainier66.com> References: <008701d602d7$9ab648f0$d022dad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <5B9EF8FA-DDC9-456E-922E-E53DA0EB27A2@gmail.com> On Mar 25, 2020, at 12:04 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > John Clark is in charge of that, the invitations, the moderation, etc. > > I do miss the focused subgroups. Those things were so intense and worthwhile in their way. We had them on single-state-to-orbit, guns, openness vs privacy, lots of math ones including one that I think led to BlockChain and BitCoin. > > > > spike Single stage? Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 25 19:59:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:59:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <5B9EF8FA-DDC9-456E-922E-E53DA0EB27A2@gmail.com> References: <008701d602d7$9ab648f0$d022dad0$@rainier66.com> <5B9EF8FA-DDC9-456E-922E-E53DA0EB27A2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004801d602df$f2c3d050$d84b70f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat spike >?Single stage? Dan {8^D Ja, single STAGE to orbit, sheesh, my fat fingers. We had a good SSTO group going for a while back in the days when that was still a real possibility. I was in the school of thought which held (and still hold) that anything you can do with one stage can be done better with two. We were doing actual calculations in those days, lotta smart aerospace guys joining, some who weren?t ever part of ExI-chat, proposing designs and such. Fully-recoverable two-stage is a good solution to a very difficult problem. Keith might have other thoughts, as I vaguely recall he was in on the chatter back in those days. I was more active on that one than any of the others, and it was mostly before I did much of anything on ExI. In retrospect? I don?t even know if that group started out on ExI. It might have pre-dated this list and just had a lot of ExI guys on it. Eh, memories from over 25 yrs ago are not reliable. Keith do you remember an email group with about 30-40 guys kicking around SSTO ideas? Who were the others? It was in about early 90s, and I still have my handwritten notebooks from those days, somewhere. I don?t know where they are, but I know I didn?t throw them out. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 20:37:29 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:37:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates new talk on COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 11:06 AM John Clark wrote: That new Bill Gates Ted Talk on COVID-19 has moved, I think it's really important , it's now at: Month of February was wasted John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 21:58:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:58:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <008701d602d7$9ab648f0$d022dad0$@rainier66.com> References: <70F95127-C803-4F89-BC05-ED904CEE327E@gmail.com> <008701d602d7$9ab648f0$d022dad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 3:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 > > > > Oh, my. > > I need to join the subgroup for praising your great leader. > > How do I do that? > > > > > > > > > > John Clark is in charge of that, > I want nothing to do with that. John K Clark > the invitations, the moderation, etc. > > > > I do miss the focused subgroups. Those things were so intense and > worthwhile in their way. We had them on single-state-to-orbit, guns, > openness vs privacy, lots of math ones including one that I think led to > BlockChain and BitCoin. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 23:48:59 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:48:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <004801d602df$f2c3d050$d84b70f0$@rainier66.com> References: <004801d602df$f2c3d050$d84b70f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <03060F6F-1EE8-4AA4-AAD7-EB24EE568E14@gmail.com> Any archives for that (SSTO)? Thanks for elaborating on this. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 25, 2020, at 1:01 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > From: extropy-chat I do miss the focused subgroups. Those things were so intense and worthwhile in their way. We had them on single-state-to-orbit, guns, openness vs privacy, lots of math ones including one that I think led to BlockChain and BitCoin. > >spike > > >?Single stage? > > Dan > > > {8^D > > Ja, single STAGE to orbit, sheesh, my fat fingers. > > We had a good SSTO group going for a while back in the days when that was still a real possibility. I was in the school of thought which held (and still hold) that anything you can do with one stage can be done better with two. > > We were doing actual calculations in those days, lotta smart aerospace guys joining, some who weren?t ever part of ExI-chat, proposing designs and such. > > Fully-recoverable two-stage is a good solution to a very difficult problem. Keith might have other thoughts, as I vaguely recall he was in on the chatter back in those days. I was more active on that one than any of the others, and it was mostly before I did much of anything on ExI. > > In retrospect? I don?t even know if that group started out on ExI. It might have pre-dated this list and just had a lot of ExI guys on it. Eh, memories from over 25 yrs ago are not reliable. > > Keith do you remember an email group with about 30-40 guys kicking around SSTO ideas? Who were the others? It was in about early 90s, and I still have my handwritten notebooks from those days, somewhere. I don?t know where they are, but I know I didn?t throw them out. > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 26 00:43:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:43:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <03060F6F-1EE8-4AA4-AAD7-EB24EE568E14@gmail.com> References: <004801d602df$f2c3d050$d84b70f0$@rainier66.com> <03060F6F-1EE8-4AA4-AAD7-EB24EE568E14@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c301d60307$98c41510$ca4c3f30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 >?Any archives for that (SSTO)? Thanks for elaborating on this. Regards, Dan Dan one of my biggest regrets is that none of our subgroups were archived as far as I know. I had it on a computer from a long time ago, disc crashed, all lost. The discussions between Hal Finney and me were priceless. He asked so many insightful questions about selling a number, which is really what BitCoin is. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 08:04:47 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 03:04:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates new talk on COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have to admit that I was too bored to finish. What should I be taking from this? SR Ballard > On Mar 25, 2020, at 3:37 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 11:06 AM John Clark wrote: > > That new Bill Gates Ted Talk on COVID-19 has moved, I think it's really important , it's now at: > > Month of February was wasted > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Mar 26 09:06:02 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 09:06:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, I see. I think. You're assuming this is about someone (parents) making irrevocable choices for their children. If it was like that, sure, I'd agree, give the children the best choices you're capable of making at the time, given your limited knowledge. But I can't see it being like that. Once we know enough to reliably and safely tinker with our own genomes, we'll know how to make changes to adults as well as to embryos, or we will shortly after that (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if adult genetic engineering comes first). No genetic choice will be irrevocable. Someone (staying in the realm of biology for now) whose parents decided to make them tall could later decide that actually they want to be a spelunker and be a lot shorter and lighter than they were. Yes, brain development would certainly be trickier, but that's probably best left to post-uploading, apart from ensuring nothing is going wrong with brain development. I may be wrong, though. There may be ways to re-wire an adult biological brain. I'd throw cybernetic enhancements into the mix as well, and of course uploading. The idea of giving everyone 'maximum IQs' seems a bit strange to me. What does that mean? Person A has a really good ability to manipulate 3D images in their head, person B can't do that for toffee, but is excellent at algebra. Which one has the highest IQ? It's quite likely that some mental abilities come at the cost of some others. I've always been good with language, crap at maths. I have a friend who is the exact opposite. Which of us is more intelligent? Eliminating factors which would hinder brain development is one thing, but I can't see how 'maximising IQ' can really mean anything, as it's such a vague term that encompasses many factors, and some of them will be at the cost of others. Ben On 25/03/2020 19:38, billw wrote: > What justification?can you come up with that results in people having > different IQs, given that we can give everyone the maximum? Ditto for > all health genes.? How we we explain to a person that we could have > made them better but we didn't? Tall people are favored in the job > market.? How could we explain to a short person that we just gave them > this disadvantage? > > Sure, there are plenty of factors that we can let go wild - parent's? > choice. > > bill w > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 8:02 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On 24/03/2020 21:32, billw wrote: >> I do think I would make everyone better in the same way > > I'm certain you'd get a /lot/ of resistance to that! > > Apart from anything else, this smacks of coercion. But also, it > leads to a monoculture, which is always a bad idea. > > Better to provide people with as wide a variety of choices as > possible imo. Let them decide for themselves, let them choose how > far to go, including nowhere at all, and what types of change to > choose. > -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 10:53:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 06:53:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates new talk on COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:08 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Month of February was wasted > > > *I have to admit that I was too bored to finish.* > > *What should I be taking from this?SR Ballard* I admire Bill Gates for many reasons, one of them is that no human being has saved more lives than he has. And few people have thought longer or more deeply about global pandemics than he has. You really should watch the entire talk but if you insist on the Cliff Notes version here are some Bill Gates quotations from his recent talk: *?It is really tragic that the economic effects of this are very dramatic. Nothing like this has ever happened to the economy in our lifetimes. But money, you know bringing the economy back and doing money, that?s more of a reversible thing than bringing people back to life. And so we?re going to take the pain in the economic dimension ? huge pain ? in order to minimize the pain in the disease and death dimension. It?s very irresponsible for somebody to suggest that we can have the best of both worlds. There is no middle course on this thing." * *"It?s very tough to say to people, ?Hey keep going to restaurants, go buy new houses, ignore that pile of bodies over in the corner, we want you to keep spending because there?s some politician that thinks GDP growth is what counts. It?s hard to tell people during and epidemic ? that they should go about things knowing their activity is spreading this disease"* *"Many countries had not taken advantage of the month of February. South Korea?s approach to mass testing was a lesson everyone should learn from. South Korea took advantage of February, built up the testing capacity and they were able to contact trace, and the infections have gone down even without the type of shutdown that, because we?re late, we?re having to do.?* *?The problem wasn?t that there was a system that didn?t work well enough. The problem was that we didn?t have a system at all. It?s too late to avoid a coronavirus shutdown. The U.S. is past this opportunity to control the coronavirus without shutdown. We did not act fast enough to have an ability to avoid the shutdown. It?s disastrous for the economy, but the sooner you do it in a tough way, the sooner you can undo it and go back to normal"* *"**China is seeing very few cases now because their testing and shut down was very effective. If a country does a good job with testing and shut down then within 6-10 weeks they should see very few cases and be able to open back up."* *?If you?re doing isolation well nationally, within about 20 days you?ll see those numbers of new cases really change, i.e., go down, ?and that is a sign that you?re on your way. **This is not going to be easy. We need a clear message about that.?* John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 13:26:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 08:26:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the state of black and white education Message-ID: http://walterewilliams.com/progressive-cities-and-black-education/ Mercy graduations? Blame the liberals. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 14:03:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 09:03:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day. Message-ID: You have to kill pessimists. Optimists do it to themselves. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 19:01:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:01:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now we are getting down to details. Your point about IQ is well-founded. It is not a totally pure factor. I don't know about having one set of genes interfering with another set, but you could know. Epigenetics will come first, I think. Finding out what genes do what enables us to use Crispr and turn them on or off (or replace them). A few conditions do come from just a few genes. I think cystic fibrosis is one that could be easily cured. We could control height with pituitary hormones now, right? Weight too. I don't know why we don't use levothyroxine to raise metabolism rates and get rid of fat. (My rate is out of the normal range and kept that way as a treatment for thyroid cancer. I have a few side effects,such as no appetite and dry skin, which pale in comparison to the problems obese people will have sooner or later.) I certainly agree about choices. Parents will have to make them when choosing the genetics of their children. If those children decide (at what age do they get to?) differently and the genetic tools are available, then that's just what a libertarian would like best of all. But the parents have the first say perforce. We won't live to find out, but I have serious doubts that uploading will produce an entity indistinguishable from the biological person, or have the same experiences of life just by stimulating the uploaded person in some ways. IQ correlates with more things than anything else, even art talent, though that correlation is fairly low. A person with an IQ of 80 can learn to read music and with the proper dexterity can play in an orchestra - but not conduct nor write music well. There may be other things that come to mind which I would give everyone - long life genes? Not needed in an upload environment? bill w On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:10 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ah, I see. I think. You're assuming this is about someone (parents) making > irrevocable choices for their children. > > If it was like that, sure, I'd agree, give the children the best choices > you're capable of making at the time, given your limited knowledge. > > But I can't see it being like that. Once we know enough to reliably and > safely tinker with our own genomes, we'll know how to make changes to > adults as well as to embryos, or we will shortly after that (in fact, I > wouldn't be surprised if adult genetic engineering comes first). No genetic > choice will be irrevocable. Someone (staying in the realm of biology for > now) whose parents decided to make them tall could later decide that > actually they want to be a spelunker and be a lot shorter and lighter than > they were. > Yes, brain development would certainly be trickier, but that's probably > best left to post-uploading, apart from ensuring nothing is going wrong > with brain development. I may be wrong, though. There may be ways to > re-wire an adult biological brain. > > I'd throw cybernetic enhancements into the mix as well, and of course > uploading. > > The idea of giving everyone 'maximum IQs' seems a bit strange to me. What > does that mean? Person A has a really good ability to manipulate 3D images > in their head, person B can't do that for toffee, but is excellent at > algebra. Which one has the highest IQ? It's quite likely that some mental > abilities come at the cost of some others. I've always been good with > language, crap at maths. I have a friend who is the exact opposite. Which > of us is more intelligent? > > Eliminating factors which would hinder brain development is one thing, but > I can't see how 'maximising IQ' can really mean anything, as it's such a > vague term that encompasses many factors, and some of them will be at the > cost of others. > > Ben > > > > On 25/03/2020 19:38, billw wrote: > > What justification can you come up with that results in people having > different IQs, given that we can give everyone the maximum? Ditto for all > health genes. How we we explain to a person that we could have made them > better but we didn't? Tall people are favored in the job market. How > could we explain to a short person that we just gave them this disadvantage? > > Sure, there are plenty of factors that we can let go wild - parent's > choice. > > bill w > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 8:02 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 24/03/2020 21:32, billw wrote: >> >> I do think I would make everyone better in the same way >> >> >> I'm certain you'd get a *lot* of resistance to that! >> >> Apart from anything else, this smacks of coercion. But also, it leads to >> a monoculture, which is always a bad idea. >> >> Better to provide people with as wide a variety of choices as possible >> imo. Let them decide for themselves, let them choose how far to go, >> including nowhere at all, and what types of change to choose. >> > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 19:08:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:08:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads (was: Covid) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 8:32 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 5:35 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> How could there be any competition among people? >> > > Assuming competition is desired, devising and implementing the changes > necessary to optimize oneself for a given task would likely be nontrivial > and would take time, resources, money, etc., to implement. Just because > you're in a simulation doesn't mean everything is magic: snap your fingers > and BAM, you're the optimal cake baker or CPA or lawyer or whatever. For > games, players could agree on various constraints in advance. > > If there were still jobs done by 'humans' then if they wanted someone to >> do matrix algebra you'd just change your code to enable that ability. Of >> course the true computers would likely be doing that. >> > > Yeah, that's not a good example. A better one would be creating a work of > art: painting a picture, writing a song, writing a poem. Those are things > that a few people do well and, so far, only people do well. > > >> So are we envisioning a life of play while AIs run the planet? >> > > Why not have people inside simulations run the planet, if they could do a > better job than AIs? Or at least not fuck it up? But what's wrong with > moving beyond the constant struggle to meet biological needs? If I could > have chosen a life of leisure over a life of 40 hours/week struggling to > keep the family going. > > I think it will be hundreds of years before simulations catch up with reality. The brain is such an incredibly complex thing that just coding in odors,touch,and so on cannot being to rival the experiences of biological life. I could see uploading if the body just becomes too great a burden or is unfixable. You are assuming that AIs will be relied on to proved the electricity for all these sim machines, eh? > I keep coming back to reproduction. Evolution is a game >> with reproduction as the goal. How does that fit in with uploaded people? >> > > It depends on the rules of the simulation. If individuals can change > quickly, dramatically, and intentionally, what's the point of trying to > implement something slow and random like natural selection? > > Depends on the assumptions. If you assume that all births will be the result of frozen ova and sperm, perhaps from people long dead, raised in artificial wombs, you still can design the genetics of those children. Then they will live a life of some duration before uploading. > I can also see a role for psychologists and programmers. They would help >> the uploaded person decide on what he wanted to be and the programmers >> would achieve that. I just have not thought about this very much and so my >> ideas are likely to be primitive. >> > > I'd imagine there'd be a need for psychologists and programmers, though > implementing changes would quickly become more like hiring a designer than > hiring a coder. There'd likely be a marketplace of modifications and > upgrades that have already been implemented. Like, you wouldn't hire a > furniture maker, a rug weaver, a paint chemist, etc., to redo your living > room today. You'd either pick those things out yourself or work with a > professional interior designer who knows what's available, what would work > well together, and what would meet your needs. > > As for nanobots, isn't it more likely to be manufactured viruses and >> bacteria? >> > > Is there a difference? I mean, those are biological nanobots. > > I like 'designer' as opposed to coder'- sculpting a new personality and > /or body. I assume some things will be irreversible - like getting shorter > Ideally we'd want to move past playing by the rules of biochemistry in order to do non-biological things. > I don't know what that means. You want to do non-biological things to a > biological body? bill w > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 19:38:49 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 15:38:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads (was: Covid) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 3:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I think it will be hundreds of years before simulations catch up with > reality. The brain is such an incredibly complex thing that just coding in > odors,touch,and so on cannot being to rival the experiences of biological > life. > You may be right, but if a brain can be simulated at the cellular level there's no need to understand how to code senses to rival those of biological life--they'd be bio-identical. > I could see uploading if the body just becomes too great a burden or is > unfixable. > Humans can't live much past 120, even in the most ideal conditions. Uploaded life has the potential to be unlimited. > You are assuming that AIs will be relied on to proved the electricity > for all these sim machines, eh? > Not necessarily. There could be real flesh people outside the simulation doing it. Or telepresence robots run from inside a simulation. Or intelligent robots, if that makes sense. Or cyborgs. Ideally we'd want to move past playing by the rules of biochemistry in >> order to do non-biological things. >> > > I don't know what that means. You want to do non-biological things to a > biological body? > No, I want non-biological nanobots to be able to do things inside a biological body. Like structural repairs, killing biological invaders, etc. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Mar 26 18:52:07 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 11:52:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Influential Imperial College Epidemiologist catches COVID and admits his models were off by more than an order of magnitude Message-ID: <20200326115207.Horde.6-XI1Giu66TvuPvzZHZcpO6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> https://www.dailywire.com/news/epidemiologist-behind-highly-cited-coronavirus-model-admits-he-was-wrong-drastically-revises-model "Epidemiologist Neil Ferguson, who created the highly-cited Imperial College London coronavirus model, which has been cited by organizations like The New York Times and has been instrumental in governmental policy decision-making, offered a massive revision to his model on Wednesday. Ferguson?s model projected 2.2 million dead people in the United States and 500,000 in the U.K. from COVID-19 if no action were taken to slow the virus and blunt its curve. However, after just one day of ordered lockdowns in the U.K., Ferguson is presenting drastically downgraded estimates, revealing that far more people likely have the virus than his team figured. Now, the epidemiologist predicts, hospitals will be just fine taking on COVID-19 patients and estimates 20,000 or far fewer people will die from the virus itself or from its agitation of other ailments, as reported by New Scientist Wednesday. Ferguson thus dropped his prediction from 500,000 dead to 20,000." Seriously? After the UK and USA built their emergency responses around his model? Certain anti-science politicians will have a field day with this. Stuart LaForge From interzone at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 20:18:07 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:18:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Influential Imperial College Epidemiologist catches COVID and admits his models were off by more than an order of magnitude In-Reply-To: <20200326115207.Horde.6-XI1Giu66TvuPvzZHZcpO6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200326115207.Horde.6-XI1Giu66TvuPvzZHZcpO6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: The amount of economic damage being done by overreaction to this threat is off the charts. The IFR for this is unlikely to be more than 1% when all is said and done. I still predict on record that this thing is effectively over in the US by early June. Meanwhile, central banks have entered a new phase where they essentially are the financial markets. I'm also waiting to see the lasting damage done to civil liberties across the board. On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:06 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://www.dailywire.com/news/epidemiologist-behind-highly-cited-coronavirus-model-admits-he-was-wrong-drastically-revises-model > > > "Epidemiologist Neil Ferguson, who created the highly-cited Imperial > College London coronavirus model, which has been cited by > organizations like The New York Times and has been instrumental in > governmental policy decision-making, offered a massive revision to his > model on Wednesday. > > Ferguson?s model projected 2.2 million dead people in the United > States and 500,000 in the U.K. from COVID-19 if no action were taken > to slow the virus and blunt its curve. > > However, after just one day of ordered lockdowns in the U.K., Ferguson > is presenting drastically downgraded estimates, revealing that far > more people likely have the virus than his team figured. Now, the > epidemiologist predicts, hospitals will be just fine taking on > COVID-19 patients and estimates 20,000 or far fewer people will die > from the virus itself or from its agitation of other ailments, as > reported by New Scientist Wednesday. > > Ferguson thus dropped his prediction from 500,000 dead to 20,000." > > Seriously? After the UK and USA built their emergency responses around > his model? Certain anti-science politicians will have a field day with > this. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 20:34:31 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 13:34:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Influential Imperial College Epidemiologist catches COVID and admits his models were off by more than an order of magnitude In-Reply-To: <20200326115207.Horde.6-XI1Giu66TvuPvzZHZcpO6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200326115207.Horde.6-XI1Giu66TvuPvzZHZcpO6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <97412FA7-C0DC-4FAC-B95F-1A9BFC968F30@gmail.com> Is there a source other than the Daily Wire for this? I don?t even want to click on anything associated with that scumbag Ben Shapiro. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Mar 26, 2020, at 1:07 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?https://www.dailywire.com/news/epidemiologist-behind-highly-cited-coronavirus-model-admits-he-was-wrong-drastically-revises-model > > > "Epidemiologist Neil Ferguson, who created the highly-cited Imperial College London coronavirus model, which has been cited by organizations like The New York Times and has been instrumental in governmental policy decision-making, offered a massive revision to his model on Wednesday. > > Ferguson?s model projected 2.2 million dead people in the United States and 500,000 in the U.K. from COVID-19 if no action were taken to slow the virus and blunt its curve. > > However, after just one day of ordered lockdowns in the U.K., Ferguson is presenting drastically downgraded estimates, revealing that far more people likely have the virus than his team figured. Now, the epidemiologist predicts, hospitals will be just fine taking on COVID-19 patients and estimates 20,000 or far fewer people will die from the virus itself or from its agitation of other ailments, as reported by New Scientist Wednesday. > > Ferguson thus dropped his prediction from 500,000 dead to 20,000." > > Seriously? After the UK and USA built their emergency responses around his model? Certain anti-science politicians will have a field day with this. > > Stuart LaForge > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 20:41:35 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Influential Imperial College Epidemiologist catches COVID and admits his models were off by more than an order of magnitude In-Reply-To: <97412FA7-C0DC-4FAC-B95F-1A9BFC968F30@gmail.com> References: <20200326115207.Horde.6-XI1Giu66TvuPvzZHZcpO6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <97412FA7-C0DC-4FAC-B95F-1A9BFC968F30@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you want to balance clicks with a leftie rag, here it is: https://www.thedailybeast.com/neil-ferguson-imperial-college-expert-who-inspired-coronavirus-lockdown-says-uk-health-system-can-now-cope On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:36 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is there a source other than the Daily Wire for this? I don?t even want to > click on anything associated with that scumbag Ben Shapiro. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > On Mar 26, 2020, at 1:07 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > https://www.dailywire.com/news/epidemiologist-behind-highly-cited-coronavirus-model-admits-he-was-wrong-drastically-revises-model > > > "Epidemiologist Neil Ferguson, who created the highly-cited Imperial > College London coronavirus model, which has been cited by organizations > like The New York Times and has been instrumental in governmental policy > decision-making, offered a massive revision to his model on Wednesday. > > Ferguson?s model projected 2.2 million dead people in the United States > and 500,000 in the U.K. from COVID-19 if no action were taken to slow the > virus and blunt its curve. > > However, after just one day of ordered lockdowns in the U.K., Ferguson is > presenting drastically downgraded estimates, revealing that far more people > likely have the virus than his team figured. Now, the epidemiologist > predicts, hospitals will be just fine taking on COVID-19 patients and > estimates 20,000 or far fewer people will die from the virus itself or from > its agitation of other ailments, as reported by New Scientist Wednesday. > > Ferguson thus dropped his prediction from 500,000 dead to 20,000." > > Seriously? After the UK and USA built their emergency responses around his > model? Certain anti-science politicians will have a field day with this. > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:24:46 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:24:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 Message-ID: wrote: snip > Fully-recoverable two-stage is a good solution to a very difficult problem. Keith might have other thoughts, as I vaguely recall he was in on the chatter back in those days. I was more active on that one than any of the others, and it was mostly before I did much of anything on ExI. I don't think I was involved in SSTO discussions back then. In the last ten years, I have been deeply involved. I don't care if it is one stage or two, but the cost to LEO has to go down to $100/kg or less for power satellites to make economic sense. snip Keith do you remember an email group with about 30-40 guys kicking around SSTO ideas? No. It's easy to show that rocket SSTO doesn't make sense. Skylon is a different story. Keith From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:51:49 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:51:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Influential Imperial College Epidemiologist catches COVID and admits his models were off by more than an order of magnitude In-Reply-To: References: <20200326115207.Horde.6-XI1Giu66TvuPvzZHZcpO6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <97412FA7-C0DC-4FAC-B95F-1A9BFC968F30@gmail.com> Message-ID: If UK went from 500K to 20K, then the US would go from 2.2M to 88K. It?s not nothing but suggests we are going through an over-reaction. Track and trace would have been the right choice. Alas, where are we on that one then? But this is still a model, and can be wrong. ?Hospitals will be just fine taking on these patients? is not proving to be true. Hospitals in NYC are freaking out. They are not ?just fine?. Elmhurst hospital is so contaminated by Corona that that?s basically the only patients they treat at the moment. They?re begging for ventilators, etc. When hospitals are not working properly, we will see a greater number of people die than we would otherwise expect. Death estimates have a built in assumption that X% will get hospital care and live. If they don?t get that care, they probably won?t live. It is important to remember that his model is based on ?if countries did nothing?. We will never know how accurate the original model is because literally no country is doing ?nothing?. We won?t know until we know. That?s the problem with models. From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:55:37 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:55:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates new talk on COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8207DF38-C7A8-49FF-AA93-F2261B82BF66@gmail.com> So exactly what everyone who has been paying attention could already tell you. It?s cool because Bill Gates said it? SR Ballard > On Mar 26, 2020, at 5:53 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:08 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > Month of February was wasted > >> >> > I have to admit that I was too bored to finish. >> What should I be taking from this? >> SR Ballard > > I admire Bill Gates for many reasons, one of them is that no human being has saved more lives than he has. And few people have thought longer or more deeply about global pandemics than he has. You really should watch the entire talk but if you insist on the Cliff Notes version here are some Bill Gates quotations from his recent talk: > > ?It is really tragic that the economic effects of this are very dramatic. Nothing like this has ever happened to the economy in our lifetimes. But money, you know bringing the economy back and doing money, that?s more of a reversible thing than bringing people back to life. And so we?re going to take the pain in the economic dimension ? huge pain ? in order to minimize the pain in the disease and death dimension. It?s very irresponsible for somebody to suggest that we can have the best of both worlds. There is no middle course on this thing." > > "It?s very tough to say to people, ?Hey keep going to restaurants, go buy new houses, ignore that pile of bodies over in the corner, we want you to keep spending because there?s some politician that thinks GDP growth is what counts. It?s hard to tell people during and epidemic ? that they should go about things knowing their activity is spreading this disease" > > "Many countries had not taken advantage of the month of February. South Korea?s approach to mass testing was a lesson everyone should learn from. South Korea took advantage of February, built up the testing capacity and they were able to contact trace, and the infections have gone down even without the type of shutdown that, because we?re late, we?re having to do.? > > ?The problem wasn?t that there was a system that didn?t work well enough. The problem was that we didn?t have a system at all. It?s too late to avoid a coronavirus shutdown. The U.S. is past this opportunity to control the coronavirus without shutdown. We did not act fast enough to have an ability to avoid the shutdown. It?s disastrous for the economy, but the sooner you do it in a tough way, the sooner you can undo it and go back to normal" > > "China is seeing very few cases now because their testing and shut down was very effective. If a country does a good job with testing and shut down then within 6-10 weeks they should see very few cases and be able to open back up." > > ?If you?re doing isolation well nationally, within about 20 days you?ll see those numbers of new cases really change, i.e., go down, ?and that is a sign that you?re on your way. This is not going to be easy. We need a clear message about that.? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 23:10:48 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 19:10:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Influential Imperial College Epidemiologist catches COVID and admits his models were off by more than an order of magnitude In-Reply-To: References: <20200326115207.Horde.6-XI1Giu66TvuPvzZHZcpO6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 4:22 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The amount of economic damage being done by overreaction to this threat > is off the charts.* > Exactly one week ago the US had 8,898 confirmed cases of COVID-19, today it has 81,476, the highest of any nation in the world. One week ago there were only 149 deaths from COVID-19, as of today there has been 1180 deaths. And there is not the slightest sign the death rate is slowing down. That doesn't sound like an overreaction to me. And unlike some, in my opinion I don't think it would be beautiful to have packed churches on Easter. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 10:25:08 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 18:25:08 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Book: How Not To Die Message-ID: How Not to Die: Surprising Lessons on Living Longer, Safer, and Healthier from America's Favorite Medical Examiner "Thousands of people make an early exit each year and arrive on medical examiner Jan Garavaglia?s table. What is particularly sad about this is that many of these deaths could easily have been prevented. Although Dr. Garavaglia, or Dr. G, as she?s known to many, could not tell these individuals how to avoid their fates, we can benefit from her experience and profound insight into the choices we make each day." "In *How Not to Die*, Dr. G acts as a medical detective to identify the often-unintentional ways we harm our bodies, then shows us how to use that information to live better and smarter. She provides startling tips on how to make wise choices so that we don?t have to see her, or someone like her, for a good, long time." https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Die-Surprising-Healthier-ebook/dp/B001HL9CDM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Mar 27 06:39:35 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 23:39:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Iceland is filling in the gaps in our understanding of COVID-19 Message-ID: <20200326233935.Horde.00Vyeee9C1yrc8XcY3DfbRn@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Here is some new data out of Iceland that some of you will find interesting. https://www.covid.is/data Since the beginning of the COVID-19 epidemic, researchers have been wringing their hands over potential asymptomatic carriers that may have been slipping through under the radar. In most countries, the governments are only testing people who exhibit symptoms or fall into certain high-risk categories such as recent travel to affected countries contact with known cases etc. Iceland however is a small country of only 364,000 people so they have offered COVID-19 testing to anyone who volunteers to get tested. As of now they have tested 12,516 people or roughly 3.6% of their country's population. What they have found out is that over 50% of those who are positive for the virus show no symptoms. What this indicates is that the virus is less deadly than we think it is as the Case Fatality Rate or CFR in Iceland is currently about .0025 or 1/4 of 1% whereas in the USA the CFR is about 1.5%. But what this implies is that to a very rough approximation, for every confirmed case in the USA, there are about five infected people who are not showing symptoms and still potentially spreading the virus. So the virus seems to be spreading like wildfire through dry brush but we can only see 1/6th of the flames. Maybe it will burn itself out and the USA will achieve herd immunity in a few months like Dylan suggested. Stuart LaForge From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Mar 27 17:56:28 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 17:56:28 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Uploads (was: Covid) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f27ae92-1385-69ce-b0b0-beb000fb5d4a@zaiboc.net> On 26/03/2020 19:08, Dave Sill wrote, then billw wrote: > > Ideally we'd want to move past playing by the rules of biochemistry in > order to do non-biological things. > > I don't know what that means.? You want to do non-biological > things to a biological body? bill w > I don't know what Dave has in mind here, but to me, the long-term thing will be moving past the distinction between 'biological' and 'artificial'. Consider that even an uploaded mind will need a physical substrate of some sort to run on (one reason I've always objected to the term 'substrate-independent' - it implies somehow being independent of any substrate, which is clearly nonsense, outside of Star-Trekkian stories featuring beings of 'pure energy'). Many people seem to assume that this substrate will resemble our current computers, and anyone who advocates for uploading must be happy to have their mind be a software construct running on something like the massive server farms we have today (which of course implies all sorts of practical, legal and ethical considerations that are actually quite scary, once you start thinking about them). While that may be a short-term prospect, I doubt it will be how things pan out in the longer-term. The way we are now, we create and live in elaborate virtual worlds that are generated by our brains. We have no choice in the matter, that's how things work. This doesn't mean that we don't inhabit 'real bodies', though. I see no necessary difference once we can upload (once the technology is mature, anyway). One factor that many people assume will be necessary for uploading is nanotechnology. Much better nanotech than what we currently use the word for. Another factor will necessarily be a much better understanding of biology. Biology of the brain of course, but also of other aspects of our bodies (even if only to provide acceptibly realistic - or tolerable - simulations of embodiment). This is where the 'moving past the distinction' bit comes in. With sufficient understanding and technical ability, we'll be able to craft bodies for uploads to live in that are not 'computers' as we know them today, and not biological bodies as we know them today, but something new. Something that serves as a physical substrate for the mind, and as a body to act in the world, Something that gives us the best of both worlds, virtual and real. Just because someone's mind runs in a synthetic brain doesn't mean they are inevitably stuck in a kind of limbo where nothing is 'real', where they can't experience smell or feel emotions, etc., etc. I expect that these kind of 'post-upload' people will not only be able to experience the full range of mental states that we can now, but a lot more. And most importantly, they will be able to control their own selves, in many ways. They won't be subject to the worst parts of being biological, or the worst parts of being a 'computer system'. No disease, ageing and decrepitude. No blue screen of death. No 'Singularity ruined by lawyers'. The technology used to construct their bodies (and don't just imagine 'Cmdr. Data' - type bodies, they could be anything you like) would be advanced enough that trying to classify them as biological or artificial would be hopelessly naive. At this point, even the question 'Are you an upload?' would be difficult to answer in a meaningful way. Even the phrase 'post-biological' might not be strictly accurate. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 00:45:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 19:45:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads (was: Covid) In-Reply-To: <6f27ae92-1385-69ce-b0b0-beb000fb5d4a@zaiboc.net> References: <6f27ae92-1385-69ce-b0b0-beb000fb5d4a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Thanks for all that, Ben - just one question: The body is designed not to die or suffer injury. It will attempt to shut down things that will do that. Now suppose that we have an uploaded person: Suzie. She is a sex maniac and spends most of her time having an orgasm. If she had a body, that would probably produce heart failure or blow out blood vessels . It might produce inhibitions in the brain trying to dampen the orgasms. Is there anything to keep an uploaded person from just spending all their time with peak experiences like orgasms? I assume that issues of tolerance and addiction will not apply. Those are biochemical changes. Or will the totally uploaded brain try to do what the biological body would do? This is far from clear to me. One more related example: your taste (tongue plus nose) diminishes with each bite you take of something. Will this happen to Suzie? bill w On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 1:00 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 26/03/2020 19:08, Dave Sill wrote, then billw wrote: > > > Ideally we'd want to move past playing by the rules of biochemistry in > order to do non-biological things. > >> I don't know what that means. You want to do non-biological things to a >> biological body? bill w >> > > I don't know what Dave has in mind here, but to me, the long-term thing > will be moving past the distinction between 'biological' and 'artificial'. > > Consider that even an uploaded mind will need a physical substrate of some > sort to run on (one reason I've always objected to the term > 'substrate-independent' - it implies somehow being independent of any > substrate, which is clearly nonsense, outside of Star-Trekkian stories > featuring beings of 'pure energy'). > Many people seem to assume that this substrate will resemble our current > computers, and anyone who advocates for uploading must be happy to have > their mind be a software construct running on something like the massive > server farms we have today (which of course implies all sorts of practical, > legal and ethical considerations that are actually quite scary, once you > start thinking about them). > > While that may be a short-term prospect, I doubt it will be how things pan > out in the longer-term. > > The way we are now, we create and live in elaborate virtual worlds that > are generated by our brains. We have no choice in the matter, that's how > things work. This doesn't mean that we don't inhabit 'real bodies', though. > > I see no necessary difference once we can upload (once the technology is > mature, anyway). One factor that many people assume will be necessary for > uploading is nanotechnology. Much better nanotech than what we currently > use the word for. Another factor will necessarily be a much better > understanding of biology. Biology of the brain of course, but also of other > aspects of our bodies (even if only to provide acceptibly realistic - or > tolerable - simulations of embodiment). > > This is where the 'moving past the distinction' bit comes in. With > sufficient understanding and technical ability, we'll be able to craft > bodies for uploads to live in that are not 'computers' as we know them > today, and not biological bodies as we know them today, but something new. > Something that serves as a physical substrate for the mind, and as a body > to act in the world, Something that gives us the best of both worlds, > virtual and real. > > Just because someone's mind runs in a synthetic brain doesn't mean they > are inevitably stuck in a kind of limbo where nothing is 'real', where they > can't experience smell or feel emotions, etc., etc. I expect that these > kind of 'post-upload' people will not only be able to experience the full > range of mental states that we can now, but a lot more. And most > importantly, they will be able to control their own selves, in many ways. > They won't be subject to the worst parts of being biological, or the worst > parts of being a 'computer system'. No disease, ageing and decrepitude. No > blue screen of death. No 'Singularity ruined by lawyers'. > > The technology used to construct their bodies (and don't just imagine > 'Cmdr. Data' - type bodies, they could be anything you like) would be > advanced enough that trying to classify them as biological or artificial > would be hopelessly naive. At this point, even the question 'Are you an > upload?' would be difficult to answer in a meaningful way. Even the phrase > 'post-biological' might not be strictly accurate. > > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Sat Mar 28 01:38:45 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 01:38:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] META: server updates due to spam Message-ID: Hello, all, Since we're all spending more time distancing ourselves from others, it seems we're finding different things to do with our time. Spammers and scammers are really out in force. The number of brute force intrusion attempts on our servers has increased around tenfold in the last couple of weeks. This isn't an issue for us, but it's a sign of people with too much time on their hands. The amount of spam, on the other hand, both directed at us and directed at others claiming to be us has also increased, and this does cause problems. Companies like Cloudflare are exacerbating the problem by allowing these known scammers to use their services with no meaningful way to report abuse, and the people who run Cloudflare are unresponsive to attempts to ask for their cooperation. I'm about to block two large netblocks because of this rampant spam: 31.40.128.0/18: A Russian network that has a Gmail address as the contact address 89.144.0.0/18: "ghostnet.de", which doesn't respond at all, and which has a web site with an SSL certificate which expired two weeks ago I'm writing this here in case this block affects anyone here. I doubt it will, because neither of these networks looks to be in any way legitimate, but if it does, please let me know. I'll be watching logs, too, to see if any deliveries are affected by these blocks. Also be warned that if Cloudflare continues to flaunt their disregard for responsibility for spammers they facilitate, we may be forced to block email from domains hosted by them. I plan to run a script across all of our subscribers' domains to see who this might affect, but at very least I want to make people aware of the possibility. Thanks, and stay safe, John Klos From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 02:09:37 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 10:09:37 +0800 Subject: [ExI] 16 Ways Coronavirus May Change the Way We Look at the World Message-ID: "Crisis. A situation where danger and opportunity intersect. In the last several weeks, we?ve heard and learned a lot about the danger and suffering caused by Covid-19. But opportunities are here too, and not only for soap producers and bitcoin holders. This is not to downplay the gravity of the situation, but rather go back to the root of the word crisis, and its original meaning of ?choice.? This brutal challenge to our existing systems may open new windows of opportunity for long-awaited change." https://singularityhub.com/2020/03/25/16-ways-coronavirus-may-change-the-way-we-look-at-the-world/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 03:44:05 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 14:44:05 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Uploads (was: Covid) In-Reply-To: References: <6f27ae92-1385-69ce-b0b0-beb000fb5d4a@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Mar 2020 at 11:49, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thanks for all that, Ben - just one question: > > The body is designed not to die or suffer injury. It will attempt to shut > down things that will do that. Now suppose that we have an uploaded > person: Suzie. She is a sex maniac and spends most of her time having an > orgasm. If she had a body, that would probably produce heart failure or > blow out blood vessels . It might produce inhibitions in the brain trying > to dampen the orgasms. > > Is there anything to keep an uploaded person from just spending all their > time with peak experiences like orgasms? I assume that issues of tolerance > and addiction will not apply. Those are biochemical changes. Or will the > totally uploaded brain try to do what the biological body would do? This > is far from clear to me. > > One more related example: your taste (tongue plus nose) diminishes with > each bite you take of something. Will this happen to Suzie? > > bill w > It would be a problem if uploads could just maximise positive reinforcement without going to any effort. It has even been postulated that this is an explanation of the Fermi paradox: once civilisations becomes advanced enough, they transfer their minds to a virtual Heaven, and stop being interested in exploring the universe. On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 1:00 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 26/03/2020 19:08, Dave Sill wrote, then billw wrote: >> >> >> Ideally we'd want to move past playing by the rules of biochemistry in >> order to do non-biological things. >> >>> I don't know what that means. You want to do non-biological things to a >>> biological body? bill w >>> >> >> I don't know what Dave has in mind here, but to me, the long-term thing >> will be moving past the distinction between 'biological' and 'artificial'. >> >> Consider that even an uploaded mind will need a physical substrate of >> some sort to run on (one reason I've always objected to the term >> 'substrate-independent' - it implies somehow being independent of any >> substrate, which is clearly nonsense, outside of Star-Trekkian stories >> featuring beings of 'pure energy'). >> Many people seem to assume that this substrate will resemble our current >> computers, and anyone who advocates for uploading must be happy to have >> their mind be a software construct running on something like the massive >> server farms we have today (which of course implies all sorts of practical, >> legal and ethical considerations that are actually quite scary, once you >> start thinking about them). >> >> While that may be a short-term prospect, I doubt it will be how things >> pan out in the longer-term. >> >> The way we are now, we create and live in elaborate virtual worlds that >> are generated by our brains. We have no choice in the matter, that's how >> things work. This doesn't mean that we don't inhabit 'real bodies', though. >> >> I see no necessary difference once we can upload (once the technology is >> mature, anyway). One factor that many people assume will be necessary for >> uploading is nanotechnology. Much better nanotech than what we currently >> use the word for. Another factor will necessarily be a much better >> understanding of biology. Biology of the brain of course, but also of other >> aspects of our bodies (even if only to provide acceptibly realistic - or >> tolerable - simulations of embodiment). >> >> This is where the 'moving past the distinction' bit comes in. With >> sufficient understanding and technical ability, we'll be able to craft >> bodies for uploads to live in that are not 'computers' as we know them >> today, and not biological bodies as we know them today, but something new. >> Something that serves as a physical substrate for the mind, and as a body >> to act in the world, Something that gives us the best of both worlds, >> virtual and real. >> >> Just because someone's mind runs in a synthetic brain doesn't mean they >> are inevitably stuck in a kind of limbo where nothing is 'real', where they >> can't experience smell or feel emotions, etc., etc. I expect that these >> kind of 'post-upload' people will not only be able to experience the full >> range of mental states that we can now, but a lot more. And most >> importantly, they will be able to control their own selves, in many ways. >> They won't be subject to the worst parts of being biological, or the worst >> parts of being a 'computer system'. No disease, ageing and decrepitude. No >> blue screen of death. No 'Singularity ruined by lawyers'. >> >> The technology used to construct their bodies (and don't just imagine >> 'Cmdr. Data' - type bodies, they could be anything you like) would be >> advanced enough that trying to classify them as biological or artificial >> would be hopelessly naive. At this point, even the question 'Are you an >> upload?' would be difficult to answer in a meaningful way. Even the phrase >> 'post-biological' might not be strictly accurate. >> >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Mar 28 10:42:10 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 10:42:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c675b2a-08be-8c70-2161-dea6dea3378d@zaiboc.net> On 28/03/2020 00:46, billw asked: > > Thanks for all that, Ben? - just one question: > > The body is designed not to die or suffer injury.? It will attempt to > shut down things that will do that.? Now suppose that we have an > uploaded person:? Suzie.? She is a sex maniac and spends most of her > time having an orgasm.? If she had a body, that would probably produce > heart failure or blow out blood vessels .? It might produce > inhibitions in the brain trying to dampen the orgasms. > > Is there anything to keep an uploaded person from just spending all > their time with peak experiences like orgasms?? I assume that issues > of tolerance and addiction will not apply. Those are biochemical > changes.? Or will the totally uploaded brain try to do what the > biological body would do?? This is far from clear to me. > > One more related example: your taste (tongue plus nose) diminishes > with each bite you take of something.? Will this happen to Suzie? > > bill w OK, good questions. The main answer is, I don't know. But I'd expect that any upload would be well aware of these potential problems - perhaps through an 'orientation package' for all uploads - and be able to come up with sensible solutions. One thing that I would probably want to do would be to define a set of conditions under which automatic systems would override my conscious decisions. Eg., if? the decision threatened my survival. Another factor is that Suzie the Sex Maniac could very possibly keep the sensations of orgasm from having the effects you describe. It should be possible to subjectively experience something that normally involves bodily sensations without those sensations causing the usual 'real-world' bodily reactions. I've been musing for quite a long time now about such a dual-world existence, where you can choose whether what you experience comes from - and affects - the external environment (meaning, in this case, the body), or is purely in a virtual environment, or is a mixture of the two. i have no idea if this would be practical or feasible, but I don't see any theoretical reasons that it wouldn't be possible. You could for example, call up virtual overlays on your normal sensory input (an extension of the 'heads-up display' concept), that gives you information that comes from other sources than your bodies senses, or you could take your attention into a totally synthetic virtual world for a time while your body is occupied doing something mundane and easily automated, and have 'firewalls' between these two domains of experience, that only allow through signals that you specify. "I assume that issues of tolerance and addiction will not apply. Those are biochemical changes.? Or will the totally uploaded brain try to do what the biological body would do?? This is far from clear to me." This is one of the main points: We will be able to specify whether or not we want to apply the features of naturally evolved brains to our experience, and to what extent. Biochemistry is nothing special, it can be emulated (if that's not true, the whole uploading thing is a non-starter). To whatever degree you want. And of course, once emulated, you have much greater control over what happens. You're in the position of someone with a thermostat who gets it replaced with a digital temperature-control system, and realises that they have far more control over how it works now. Whereas before all they could do was set the temperature of the house, and hope it works well enough, now they realise they can set a huge range of conditions and responses, so that it automatically keeps the house nice and cozy when you're in, and lets the temperature fall when you're out, adjusts for sunny vs rainy days, makes it a bit cooler when there are a lot of people in the house, maybe learn that you often get up earlier than normal on a Tuesday, so put the heating on earlier on Tuesdays, etc. So the answer to your question is, issues of tolerance and addiction will apply to the degree and type that you specify. The uploaded brain will try to do what the biological body would do, to the degree that you want it to, including not at all. Suzie could potentially learn to be in a state of constant orgasmic bliss while going about her normal life unimpeded. Very likely, we'll discover other modes of being that aren't possible at present, and that nobody has even imagined. The potential for this all going horribly wrong, is of course immense. People will need to be educated to use these abilities properly, and will probably need to be protected from themselves until they know what they're doing. In the long run, though, we'll all know a hell of a lot more about ourselves than we do now. And of course, it will lead to people becoming something different to what we are now, not just physically, but mentally as well. We will hopefully, become proper Post-humans, not just monkeys with more bananas. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 11:15:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 07:15:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: <4c675b2a-08be-8c70-2161-dea6dea3378d@zaiboc.net> References: <4c675b2a-08be-8c70-2161-dea6dea3378d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 6:46 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> One thing that I would probably want to do would be to define a set of > conditions under which automatic systems would override my conscious > decisions. Eg., if the decision threatened my survival.* In other words it would be a bad idea to have total control over your own emotional control panel because unrestrained positive feedback rarely produces good results. Like electronic junkies uploads would likely slide the happiness lever all the way to the right and just sit there and do nothing but be happy. Getting rid of negative emotions like boredom would be an even worse idea, then you'd become permanently fixated on impossible tasks like a malfunctioning computer that needs rebooting. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 28 14:38:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 07:38:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] online schooling Message-ID: <007901d6050e$863d1780$92b74680$@rainier66.com> Because our local school district has only one high school and no land anywhere nearby suitable to build a second one, that one high school suffered terrible overcrowding. So we passed a bond measure to build a second high school on the small piece of land where the district offices are now located, but buildings take a while to build. The town is still growing, so the superintendent ordered the district to create remote learning plans which would allow students to apply to study from home, then come to campus only for events and testing and such, typically once a week. The plan was ready, hadn't rolled out, covid-19 general quarantine, the plan cranked up and ran, OK cool. I am forming a committee to evaluate the general success of the effort, and what we can do to improve it. If anyone has any ideas, inputs, observations, attitudes, experiences to share, please do. I will offer one. The math assignments are turned in now by the students scanning to taking photos of the completed assignment and posting them to a shared album (their own) which the teacher then has access. This is COOL! Now we have the assignments forevermore in a digital form, from which good clean paper copies can be generated in the future. Starting now, all written assignments can be digitally stored, which makes them accessible for recycling in later classes. Plenty of essays and history assignments can be resurrected later, punched up with a little more sophistication, all in keeping with the admirable conservation principles of recycle, repurpose, reuse. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 14:57:29 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 07:57:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] History repeats itself Message-ID: <199173CB-7E92-4728-A11F-A39F7849D1AB@gmail.com> https://reason.com/2020/03/28/when-an-epidemic-spreads-so-do-rumors/ No surprises here ? if you?ve paid attention to past crises. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 15:20:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 10:20:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: <4c675b2a-08be-8c70-2161-dea6dea3378d@zaiboc.net> References: <4c675b2a-08be-8c70-2161-dea6dea3378d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Imitating biochemistry: the brain initiates a lot of behavior that other organs carry out, such as endocrine glands. So - will an upload contain or create virtual endocrine glands? Virtual leg muscles for virtual running? Liver etc. for virtual digestion? And so on. Will they disconnect links to how to curl your toes? It seems that you all want a brain that is pure thinking, and there is so much of it that is devoted to other things that maybe you will upload far less than what is in your full brain. What good will uploading your medulla do? No lungs, no heart,etc. Or the cerebellum - no motor control needed. Will all emotions be included? Could we just not upload fear? Or whatever? bill w On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 5:46 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 28/03/2020 00:46, billw asked: > > > Thanks for all that, Ben - just one question: > > The body is designed not to die or suffer injury. It will attempt to shut > down things that will do that. Now suppose that we have an uploaded > person: Suzie. She is a sex maniac and spends most of her time having an > orgasm. If she had a body, that would probably produce heart failure or > blow out blood vessels . It might produce inhibitions in the brain trying > to dampen the orgasms. > > Is there anything to keep an uploaded person from just spending all their > time with peak experiences like orgasms? I assume that issues of tolerance > and addiction will not apply. Those are biochemical changes. Or will the > totally uploaded brain try to do what the biological body would do? This > is far from clear to me. > > One more related example: your taste (tongue plus nose) diminishes with > each bite you take of something. Will this happen to Suzie? > > bill w > > > OK, good questions. The main answer is, I don't know. But I'd expect that > any upload would be well aware of these potential problems - perhaps > through an 'orientation package' for all uploads - and be able to come up > with sensible solutions. > > One thing that I would probably want to do would be to define a set of > conditions under which automatic systems would override my conscious > decisions. Eg., if the decision threatened my survival. > > Another factor is that Suzie the Sex Maniac could very possibly keep the > sensations of orgasm from having the effects you describe. It should be > possible to subjectively experience something that normally involves bodily > sensations without those sensations causing the usual 'real-world' bodily > reactions. I've been musing for quite a long time now about such a > dual-world existence, where you can choose whether what you experience > comes from - and affects - the external environment (meaning, in this case, > the body), or is purely in a virtual environment, or is a mixture of the > two. > > i have no idea if this would be practical or feasible, but I don't see any > theoretical reasons that it wouldn't be possible. You could for example, > call up virtual overlays on your normal sensory input (an extension of the > 'heads-up display' concept), that gives you information that comes from > other sources than your bodies senses, or you could take your attention > into a totally synthetic virtual world for a time while your body is > occupied doing something mundane and easily automated, and have 'firewalls' > between these two domains of experience, that only allow through signals > that you specify. > > "I assume that issues of tolerance and addiction will not apply. Those are > biochemical changes. Or will the totally uploaded brain try to do what the > biological body would do? This is far from clear to me." > > This is one of the main points: We will be able to specify whether or not > we want to apply the features of naturally evolved brains to our > experience, and to what extent. Biochemistry is nothing special, it can be > emulated (if that's not true, the whole uploading thing is a non-starter). > To whatever degree you want. And of course, once emulated, you have much > greater control over what happens. You're in the position of someone with a > thermostat who gets it replaced with a digital temperature-control system, > and realises that they have far more control over how it works now. Whereas > before all they could do was set the temperature of the house, and hope it > works well enough, now they realise they can set a huge range of conditions > and responses, so that it automatically keeps the house nice and cozy when > you're in, and lets the temperature fall when you're out, adjusts for sunny > vs rainy days, makes it a bit cooler when there are a lot of people in the > house, maybe learn that you often get up earlier than normal on a Tuesday, > so put the heating on earlier on Tuesdays, etc. > > So the answer to your question is, issues of tolerance and addiction will > apply to the degree and type that you specify. The uploaded brain will try > to do what the biological body would do, to the degree that you want it to, > including not at all. Suzie could potentially learn to be in a state of > constant orgasmic bliss while going about her normal life unimpeded. Very > likely, we'll discover other modes of being that aren't possible at > present, and that nobody has even imagined. > > The potential for this all going horribly wrong, is of course immense. > People will need to be educated to use these abilities properly, and will > probably need to be protected from themselves until they know what they're > doing. In the long run, though, we'll all know a hell of a lot more about > ourselves than we do now. And of course, it will lead to people becoming > something different to what we are now, not just physically, but mentally > as well. We will hopefully, become proper Post-humans, not just monkeys > with more bananas. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 15:21:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 10:21:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] online schooling In-Reply-To: <007901d6050e$863d1780$92b74680$@rainier66.com> References: <007901d6050e$863d1780$92b74680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How is the town growing if there is no available land? Only way to go is up? bill w On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 9:42 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Because our local school district has only one high school and no land > anywhere nearby suitable to build a second one, that one high school > suffered terrible overcrowding. So we passed a bond measure to build a > second high school on the small piece of land where the district offices > are now located, but buildings take a while to build. The town is still > growing, so the superintendent ordered the district to create remote > learning plans which would allow students to apply to study from home, then > come to campus only for events and testing and such, typically once a week. > > > > The plan was ready, hadn?t rolled out, covid-19 general quarantine, the > plan cranked up and ran, OK cool. > > > > I am forming a committee to evaluate the general success of the effort, > and what we can do to improve it. > > > > If anyone has any ideas, inputs, observations, attitudes, experiences to > share, please do. > > > > I will offer one. The math assignments are turned in now by the students > scanning to taking photos of the completed assignment and posting them to a > shared album (their own) which the teacher then has access. This is COOL! > Now we have the assignments forevermore in a digital form, from which good > clean paper copies can be generated in the future. Starting now, all > written assignments can be digitally stored, which makes them accessible > for recycling in later classes. Plenty of essays and history assignments > can be resurrected later, punched up with a little more sophistication, all > in keeping with the admirable conservation principles of recycle, > repurpose, reuse. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 28 15:53:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 08:53:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] online schooling In-Reply-To: References: <007901d6050e$863d1780$92b74680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d301d60519$04145150$0c3cf3f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] online schooling >?How is the town growing if there is no available land? Only way to go is up? bill w The town is growing by two main mechanisms: granny units in the back yard and more people cramming into an existing home. Granny units are a small home built in the back yard. Until recently, permits for those were very difficult to get. Suddenly the city governments came up with the idea that these would reduce homelessness and urban stealth (people living in delivery trucks converted to makeshift campers.) A local business was set up. You call them, the ask a few questions, do all the paperwork, pull all the permits, send in a work crew, set up a little house out back in two weeks, analogous to a small studio apartment 16 ft by 20 ft, stand-alone residence, under $200k, three weeks from payment in full to hand over the key. Two of my neighbors bought them. In both cases, the building crews came in there, did their work and were gone, and no one even noticed. It was so astonishing: my neighbor invited me over for the ribbon cutting, and I wasn?t even aware he was having anything done back there. They were fast, they were quiet, they got it done on schedule. The other mechanism: more people in a home. Just as automation has enabled more people to fit in a given office space, it has also enabled more people to occupy a home. Think of all the ways. My neighbor across the street raised three children. Two still live with him. Both are in their late 20s. The third moved out of the area: couldn?t afford even a minimal rental, not even someone?s granny unit out back: those rent for over 2k a month. Result: the town grows, even after all the land is occupied. Growing upward: the city?s attitude is that the sky is free land. But of course it isn?t until we figure out how to drive on it, and figure out how to educate the children in place, bring in supplies mostly without having individual proles move in and out, and so forth. Until we figure out where to park all the cars we are so fondly accustomed to having, the sky is not free land. BillW, I have few insights on the parking problem, for mass transit suddenly doesn?t look like such a great deal any more. But? I do have insights on educating the larvae in place, and I am always eager to hear yours. spike On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 9:42 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Because our local school district has only one high school and no land anywhere nearby suitable to build a second one?If anyone has any ideas, inputs, observations, attitudes, experiences to share, please do. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 16:21:37 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 11:21:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] geometry of solar system Message-ID: "Either the earth goes around the sun or it doesn't." Is that true? According to what I read, you can pick any point, even Pluto, and consider it to be the center, although that makes the geometric math a nightmare. So we take the sun as the center just to make the math easier. Right? Question ditto for galaxy. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 28 16:42:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 09:42:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] geometry of solar system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ff01d6051f$e19a5000$a4cef000$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] geometry of solar system "Either the earth goes around the sun or it doesn't." Is that true? According to what I read, you can pick any point, even Pluto, and consider it to be the center, although that makes the geometric math a nightmare. So we take the sun as the center just to make the math easier. Right? Question ditto for galaxy. bill w Sure can BillW. Even making the math simpler is now mostly irrelevant: computers don?t care how complicated the code is. They return the answers just the same. Coders would rather have simpler code of course. But there are plenty of good reasons to use your own reference frame as the center of the universe. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 17:03:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 12:03:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] geometry of solar system In-Reply-To: <00ff01d6051f$e19a5000$a4cef000$@rainier66.com> References: <00ff01d6051f$e19a5000$a4cef000$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Pity the poor layperson, who asks "Does the Earth really go around the Sun?" Your answer "Well, it depends on your point of reference." He doesn't want to hear that. He wants a yes or no. Just like the nature/nurture posts of late, it's complicated, but requires us to simplify for the nontech people. 'Well, that's probably the best way for you to think about it." Now he feels patronized and belittled. bill w On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 11:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* [ExI] geometry of solar system > > > > "Either the earth goes around the sun or it doesn't." > > > > Is that true? According to what I read, you can pick any point, even > Pluto, and consider it to be the center, although that makes the geometric > math a nightmare. So we take the sun as the center just to make the math > easier. Right? Question ditto for galaxy. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Sure can BillW. Even making the math simpler is now mostly irrelevant: > computers don?t care how complicated the code is. They return the answers > just the same. Coders would rather have simpler code of course. But there > are plenty of good reasons to use your own reference frame as the center of > the universe. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 28 17:23:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 10:23:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] geometry of solar system In-Reply-To: References: <00ff01d6051f$e19a5000$a4cef000$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013001d60525$98cb08a0$ca6119e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] geometry of solar system Pity the poor layperson, who asks "Does the Earth really go around the Sun?" Your answer "Well, it depends on your point of reference." He doesn't want to hear that. He wants a yes or no. Just like the nature/nurture posts of late, it's complicated, but requires us to simplify for the nontech people. 'Well, that's probably the best way for you to think about it." Now he feels patronized and belittled. bill w BillW, I spent most of my career as a satellite guidance and control guy. The software aboard those rigs always assume itself, the satellite is the center of the universe, with the spinning planet revolving about it, with the moon out there doing what it does around the barycenter of the earth/moon system and the and the sun doing what it does about the barycenter of the earth/sun system, with slight corrections for Jupiter (the others don?t matter.) You can write the equations such that you are the center of the universe and make everything work perfectly. Quaternions are forgiving that way. Any point of reference is as good as any other. If one guides one?s own actions, using oneself at the (0,0,0,0) point has its advantages. Once you ponder that for a while, the notion becomes clearer that we are all sims. Or rather you are, BillW: we are all just avatars in your orbit in your software consciousness. Have you any way to disprove that? Wouldn?t it explain a lotta things? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Mar 28 17:27:12 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 17:27:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/03/2020 15:53, billw wrote: > Imitating biochemistry:? the brain initiates a lot of behavior that > other organs carry out, such as endocrine glands.? So - will an upload > contain or create virtual endocrine glands?? Virtual leg muscles for > virtual running?? Liver etc. for virtual digestion?? And so on.? > Will?they disconnect links to how to curl your toes? > > It seems that you all want a brain that is pure thinking, and there is > so much of it that is devoted to other things that maybe you will > upload far less than what is in your full brain.? What good will > uploading your medulla do?? No lungs, no heart,etc.? Or the cerebellum > - no motor control needed. > > Will all emotions be included?? Could we just not upload fear?? Or > whatever? Personally, I think the sensible approach would be to start by emulating everything that you can. Including the stupid things, the things we don't know why they exist, the things that seem irrelevant, etc. So yes, endocrine glands, leg muscles, liver, toe-curling reflexes, the lot. And that includes all the emotional responses (which you probably couldn't avoid anyway). Initially. Then, we're in a good position to start fine-tuning things. Think the recurrent laryngeal nerve is a nonsensical by-product of blind evolution? (Yes, of course it is). Right, then re-route it. Bear in mind this is all an emulation, so such things would be easy, once the basic emulation is working. Did that work? Any unexpected side-effects? No? Fine, carry on. Tweak one thing after another, go cautiously, maintain rollback points, undo things that didn't go as expected. Imagine how much we will learn! It will take a long time, yes, even at software speeds, but you can probably see that gradually, an improved virtual organism would emerge. "It seems that you all want a brain that is pure thinking" This is *far* from the truth. Anyone who gives any serious, informed thought to the matter of uploading will realise that a sense of embodiment will be essential. The aim, initially, would be to emulate as much as possible everything that we can sense, plus the things that we can't directly sense, that contribute to our selves. Only after we have mastered that would we start to tinker with the design, and who knows where we might go after that. Here's how I would describe it: Imagine that you woke up one morning, and someone told you that you'd been uploaded (or you remember making the decision to upload, the previous day). But /nothing has changed/, subjectively. You feel exactly the same. Things look, feel, taste, smell, exactly the same. The world is the same. Your emotions are the same, your body is the same. Then someone shows you that by thinking certain things, or even by using a control panel in your environment, you can change things selectively.? Press this button, and you get 2cm taller. rotate that knob and your apparent age goes up and down (with all the attendant internal changes as well as your appearance). You realise that your body doesn't hurt in the small ways that biological ageing has gradually brought on. Then you learn that you can make much bigger changes, including to your environment. Over a period of subjective months or years (which may or may not be real-world months or years), you learn more and more how to change things, control yourself and your environment, and how to communicate in many different ways with other people, including other uploads. At some point, you learn to use an interface with the real world, and perhaps inhabit the body of an avatar, or a non-human robot, or, well, or just about anything really. A hummingbird. A dinosaur, whatever. At no point do you even remotely feel like a disembodied mind (unless, that is, you normally used to!). At no point do you notice anything /missing/. Except the things that you deliberately change, like that arthritic pain you always got in your left hand. Maybe at some point you decide to find out what it's like to do without the feelings of hunger. Maybe that doesn't go so well, so you reverse the decision. And so on, and so on, for many many centuries. Or more. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 17:32:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 12:32:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] geometry of solar system In-Reply-To: <013001d60525$98cb08a0$ca6119e0$@rainier66.com> References: <00ff01d6051f$e19a5000$a4cef000$@rainier66.com> <013001d60525$98cb08a0$ca6119e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You guys talk about sims a lot, and I am a newby at it. If we are all sims, what ever that is, then some god somewhere is making a lot of boring people nearly indistinguishable from the next person. Are we all living in a big computer? Is that the question? I was thinking of Isaac going to a local university. bill w On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] geometry of solar system > > > > Pity the poor layperson, who asks "Does the Earth really go around the > Sun?" > > > > Your answer "Well, it depends on your point of reference." He doesn't > want to hear that. He wants a yes or no. Just like the nature/nurture > posts of late, it's complicated, but requires us to simplify for the > nontech people. 'Well, that's probably the best way for you to think about > it." > > > > Now he feels patronized and belittled. > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BillW, I spent most of my career as a satellite guidance and control guy. > The software aboard those rigs always assume itself, the satellite is the > center of the universe, with the spinning planet revolving about it, with > the moon out there doing what it does around the barycenter of the > earth/moon system and the and the sun doing what it does about the > barycenter of the earth/sun system, with slight corrections for Jupiter > (the others don?t matter.) > > > > You can write the equations such that you are the center of the universe > and make everything work perfectly. Quaternions are forgiving that way. > Any point of reference is as good as any other. If one guides one?s own > actions, using oneself at the (0,0,0,0) point has its advantages. > > > > Once you ponder that for a while, the notion becomes clearer that we are > all sims. > > > > Or rather you are, BillW: we are all just avatars in your orbit in your > software consciousness. > > > > Have you any way to disprove that? Wouldn?t it explain a lotta things? > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 17:55:34 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 10:55:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] online schooling In-Reply-To: References: <007901d6050e$863d1780$92b74680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 8:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How is the town growing if there is no available land? Only way to go is > up? > And can the school(s) be expanded in the same manner? I've seen a fictional school in a very-land-constrained city (domed, with unsurvivable conditions just outside the dome) that had to move its track & field events to its roof (presumably with safety netting up if and when anything was going to be thrown). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 18:18:11 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 12:18:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] geometry of solar system In-Reply-To: References: <00ff01d6051f$e19a5000$a4cef000$@rainier66.com> <013001d60525$98cb08a0$ca6119e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Macroscopic physics is mostly computable, So in that sense, we're living in a computer. Kinda. The bigger problem is the outlook on life betrayed by "lots of boring people nearly indistinguishable from the next person." Every person is a world. Every person has a story that would stop your heart. If it doesn't seem that way, you aren't looking close enough. On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 11:43 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You guys talk about sims a lot, and I am a newby at it. If we are all > sims, what ever that is, then some god somewhere is making a lot of boring > people nearly indistinguishable from the next person. > > Are we all living in a big computer? Is that the question? > > I was thinking of Isaac going to a local university. > > bill w > > On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] geometry of solar system >> >> >> >> Pity the poor layperson, who asks "Does the Earth really go around the >> Sun?" >> >> >> >> Your answer "Well, it depends on your point of reference." He doesn't >> want to hear that. He wants a yes or no. Just like the nature/nurture >> posts of late, it's complicated, but requires us to simplify for the >> nontech people. 'Well, that's probably the best way for you to think about >> it." >> >> >> >> Now he feels patronized and belittled. >> >> >> >> bill w >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> BillW, I spent most of my career as a satellite guidance and control >> guy. The software aboard those rigs always assume itself, the satellite is >> the center of the universe, with the spinning planet revolving about it, >> with the moon out there doing what it does around the barycenter of the >> earth/moon system and the and the sun doing what it does about the >> barycenter of the earth/sun system, with slight corrections for Jupiter >> (the others don?t matter.) >> >> >> >> You can write the equations such that you are the center of the universe >> and make everything work perfectly. Quaternions are forgiving that way. >> Any point of reference is as good as any other. If one guides one?s own >> actions, using oneself at the (0,0,0,0) point has its advantages. >> >> >> >> Once you ponder that for a while, the notion becomes clearer that we are >> all sims. >> >> >> >> Or rather you are, BillW: we are all just avatars in your orbit in your >> software consciousness. >> >> >> >> Have you any way to disprove that? Wouldn?t it explain a lotta things? >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 18:53:40 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 13:53:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] geometry of solar system In-Reply-To: References: <00ff01d6051f$e19a5000$a4cef000$@rainier66.com> <013001d60525$98cb08a0$ca6119e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Every person is a world. Every person has a story that would stop your heart. If it doesn't seem that way, you aren't looking close enough. Or they are not opening up to me. I am 78 and while I have not heard it all, I have heard much that the same thing over and over from family to family, from person to person, and while I would not cut off a person from telling me such things, I would leave asap. Google INTJ bill w On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 1:22 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Macroscopic physics is mostly computable, So in that sense, we're living > in a computer. Kinda. > > The bigger problem is the outlook on life betrayed by "lots of boring > people nearly indistinguishable from the next person." > > Every person is a world. Every person has a story that would stop your > heart. If it doesn't seem that way, you aren't looking close enough. > > On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 11:43 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> You guys talk about sims a lot, and I am a newby at it. If we are all >> sims, what ever that is, then some god somewhere is making a lot of boring >> people nearly indistinguishable from the next person. >> >> Are we all living in a big computer? Is that the question? >> >> I was thinking of Isaac going to a local university. >> >> bill w >> >> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* extropy-chat *On >>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] geometry of solar system >>> >>> >>> >>> Pity the poor layperson, who asks "Does the Earth really go around the >>> Sun?" >>> >>> >>> >>> Your answer "Well, it depends on your point of reference." He doesn't >>> want to hear that. He wants a yes or no. Just like the nature/nurture >>> posts of late, it's complicated, but requires us to simplify for the >>> nontech people. 'Well, that's probably the best way for you to think about >>> it." >>> >>> >>> >>> Now he feels patronized and belittled. >>> >>> >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> BillW, I spent most of my career as a satellite guidance and control >>> guy. The software aboard those rigs always assume itself, the satellite is >>> the center of the universe, with the spinning planet revolving about it, >>> with the moon out there doing what it does around the barycenter of the >>> earth/moon system and the and the sun doing what it does about the >>> barycenter of the earth/sun system, with slight corrections for Jupiter >>> (the others don?t matter.) >>> >>> >>> >>> You can write the equations such that you are the center of the universe >>> and make everything work perfectly. Quaternions are forgiving that way. >>> Any point of reference is as good as any other. If one guides one?s own >>> actions, using oneself at the (0,0,0,0) point has its advantages. >>> >>> >>> >>> Once you ponder that for a while, the notion becomes clearer that we are >>> all sims. >>> >>> >>> >>> Or rather you are, BillW: we are all just avatars in your orbit in your >>> software consciousness. >>> >>> >>> >>> Have you any way to disprove that? Wouldn?t it explain a lotta things? >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:21:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 15:21:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What you are describing is more or less Heaven on Earth, but without golf. I have serious doubts that this will happen the way you say, but who cares about my opinion? As a libertarian I'd let just about anything happen. Who besides some religious people would have any objections? What will the avatars be like? Human body, computer brains linked to yours? Immobility would be a problem for me. I'd want an avatar able to go anywhere as if I were there. Will uploads vote? Will anyone accumulate wealth enabling living for centuries? I'd like to read a scifi book that has all this stuff in it. There is very often no progress in those books, no visions for the future. Very long before what you describe happens, the human race with evolve itself genetically, and quickly. Yes, why wait for regular evolution?. It has already started on a very small scale. That is what interests me more than the uploading, though of course I am interested in that too. It's a great thing and a curse to have all my interests. bill w On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 12:34 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 28/03/2020 15:53, billw wrote: > > Imitating biochemistry: the brain initiates a lot of behavior that other > organs carry out, such as endocrine glands. So - will an upload contain or > create virtual endocrine glands? Virtual leg muscles for virtual running? > Liver etc. for virtual digestion? And so on. Will they disconnect links > to how to curl your toes? > > It seems that you all want a brain that is pure thinking, and there is so > much of it that is devoted to other things that maybe you will upload far > less than what is in your full brain. What good will uploading your > medulla do? No lungs, no heart,etc. Or the cerebellum - no motor control > needed. > > Will all emotions be included? Could we just not upload fear? Or > whatever? > > > Personally, I think the sensible approach would be to start by emulating > everything that you can. Including the stupid things, the things we don't > know why they exist, the things that seem irrelevant, etc. So yes, > endocrine glands, leg muscles, liver, toe-curling reflexes, the lot. And > that includes all the emotional responses (which you probably couldn't > avoid anyway). > > Initially. > > Then, we're in a good position to start fine-tuning things. Think the > recurrent laryngeal nerve is a nonsensical by-product of blind evolution? > (Yes, of course it is). Right, then re-route it. Bear in mind this is all > an emulation, so such things would be easy, once the basic emulation is > working. Did that work? Any unexpected side-effects? No? Fine, carry on. > Tweak one thing after another, go cautiously, maintain rollback points, > undo things that didn't go as expected. Imagine how much we will learn! It > will take a long time, yes, even at software speeds, but you can probably > see that gradually, an improved virtual organism would emerge. > > > "It seems that you all want a brain that is pure thinking" > > This is *far* from the truth. Anyone who gives any serious, informed > thought to the matter of uploading will realise that a sense of embodiment > will be essential. The aim, initially, would be to emulate as much as > possible everything that we can sense, plus the things that we can't > directly sense, that contribute to our selves. Only after we have mastered > that would we start to tinker with the design, and who knows where we might > go after that. > > Here's how I would describe it: > Imagine that you woke up one morning, and someone told you that you'd been > uploaded (or you remember making the decision to upload, the previous day). > But *nothing has changed*, subjectively. > > You feel exactly the same. Things look, feel, taste, smell, exactly the > same. The world is the same. Your emotions are the same, your body is the > same. > > Then someone shows you that by thinking certain things, or even by using a > control panel in your environment, you can change things selectively. > Press this button, and you get 2cm taller. rotate that knob and your > apparent age goes up and down (with all the attendant internal changes as > well as your appearance). You realise that your body doesn't hurt in the > small ways that biological ageing has gradually brought on. Then you learn > that you can make much bigger changes, including to your environment. Over > a period of subjective months or years (which may or may not be real-world > months or years), you learn more and more how to change things, control > yourself and your environment, and how to communicate in many different > ways with other people, including other uploads. At some point, you learn > to use an interface with the real world, and perhaps inhabit the body of an > avatar, or a non-human robot, or, well, or just about anything really. A > hummingbird. A dinosaur, whatever. > > At no point do you even remotely feel like a disembodied mind (unless, > that is, you normally used to!). At no point do you notice anything > *missing*. Except the things that you deliberately change, like that > arthritic pain you always got in your left hand. Maybe at some point you > decide to find out what it's like to do without the feelings of hunger. > Maybe that doesn't go so well, so you reverse the decision. And so on, and > so on, for many many centuries. Or more. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 21:34:22 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 14:34:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads Message-ID: The subject of uploads was beaten to death in the earliest postings to this list. I should add that there was considerable concern about modifying basic personality traits. I think Minsky had something to say about this in Society of Mind. I have written a fair amount about this. Fiction is a problem because if the entire race uploads (possible), you don't have characters in your story. Keith PS. An unfinished story, this chapter follows The Clinic Seed and UpLift. As writing goes, this isn't very good. If you want good, read Stross's Accelerando, but it does show some of what went into thinking about uploads long ago on this list. If you care about continuity, you might want to read the two chapters around The Clinic Seed. Chapter 5 June 2106 Seven-thirty a.m. the next morning, well after the sun peeped over the Eastern hills, Jim Brody drove a little electric truck over from Seton Hill and (with the help of a few kids who had woken up early) loaded the dining car in the middle of the train with breakfast and lunch. Dumping the wastewater tanks and refilling the water supplies in the cars would have to wait. At 7:45 Ed Bledsoe lit off the diesel engines, cranking them from local power, and let them warm up. Even with metering automation, Ed knew the engines would smoke under load if they were not warmed up properly. By 8 am the last of the parents had straggled down to the station. Half a dozen boys and two girls (early risers who had not stayed up past midnight) came out when the engine http://www.railfan.net/railpix/scott/subphoto.cgi?st-perris/e8truk.jpg was started. Jim Brody, ticking off the parents as they came aboard and consulting an unseen list of kids so they would all get at least one ride in the cab, picked out a boy and a girl and sent them up the ladder, letting the parents know where their kids were. He also pulled the connector to local power and put the conductive nanotube power cable back in its compartment. "All aboard!" Jim gave the proper historical hand signals to the engineer, backed up by the engineer being aware of his signal by mind-to-mind local area contact. As Jim closed the doors Ed advanced the throttle to one half and then to 3/4. This woke up even the sleepiest of the kids. With or without the help of adults they converted the bunks back into seats. They either trooped off to the dining car in the middle of the train or ate from the trolley pushed by two of the older girls who had talked Jim into letting them do it. The main choice (made up by the University dining hall kitchen the night before) was scrambled egg, cheese, ham and bell pepper mix rolled up in a steamed flour tortilla and a choice of fruits. The adults and some of the older kids drank coffee and the younger kids had milk or chocolate milk in glass bottles. Being from Trenton, all of the older kids had been in both New York to the northeast and Philadelphia to the southwest on school outings. Like those two cities, Pittsburgh had been mothballed 50 years ago in the population crash. Like all the major cities, the suburbs of Pittsburgh had become manicured parkland. With rare exceptions, the houses had been encapsulated with diamond and sunk underground often with their occupants. The streets were visible in some places and had been removed in others. There were a lot of deer. They didn't see any wolves. As they neared the more built-up center section of the town, the bigger buildings had the sheen of diamond sheeting when the light hit them right. Ed slowed the train to 40 mph so the kids could get a good look An hour and a half after they left Greensburg the train pulled into the huge covered platforms in the Pennsylvanian Union Train Station. The platform roof had been partly removed at one time to accommodate a freeway. The train buffs had won out over the auto buffs, the concrete roadway beams had been replaced by thinner diamond beams and the train platform roof replaced. http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/burnham/burnham5.html The kids and adults spilled out of the train and walked through the hotel lobby--which had also been the original ticket lobby--to the rotunda that had originally sheltered horse carriages. Ed and Jim Brody went with the kids and parents. Mike DeLong (fireman, brakeman and alternate engineer) was left in charge of the train. He dragged a hose over to the idling E8 and filled up the oil tank, dumped the wastewater tanks on the passenger cars and refilled their water tanks. The diesel oil today was from soybeans. Filling the tanks by hand was a concession to primitive technology that he didn't mind. The train station had been built around 1900 and renovated 80 years later with the associated hotel being turned into condominiums. The condominiums were still ?occupied? in the sense that the bodies of the owners were still in the building or more correctly under it. In the rare event one of them came out for a stroll in the physical world, their body was lifted to their condo before their consciousness was shifted into their warmed up brain. The rest of the time, bodies were kept underground. ?Occupied? buildings were reinforced with grown-in-place carbon nanotubes but the clinic AIs would be unhappy if their patients were not kept as safe as possible and that meant underground. When Ed and Jim reached the Rotunda, most of the kids were clustered in the center looking up at the skylight with smaller numbers of them looking out the archways. The skylight was entrancing with the morning sunlight hitting the ridged diamond panes that had replaced the original glass and scattering rainbows all over the floor. With some difficulty the children were rounded up and herded down the deserted streets, first south, passing in front of the Mellon Arena, fully ten times larger than the train station rotunda, then east on Forbes Ave toward the campuses of the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon University. The three-mile walk through the deserted city streets took about 40 minutes with the adults carrying the smallest when they got tired. (They could have had carriages with real horses if they had wanted them.) Like most urban schools, the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon University had been shut down in the population crash. When cities went under about 10 percent of their original population, they became just too depressing for humans to live in. But like infrastructure everywhere, the city and Universities were well maintained, roads and sidewalks clean, grass mowed, trees trimmed, the buildings clean and without a broken window or a sagging roof anywhere. Electric power and water were on, gas as well though it was not used for heating, having been displaced by electric heat and super insulation. Unless buildings were in use by physical state humans, they were kept cold inside (but not freezing) winter and summer alike to slow down the degradation of photographs, paper and other physical artifacts from the pre-crash era. As they were crossing the bridge on Forbes Avenue over the train tracks between Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh, Kenny caught up the engineer. ?Mr. Bledsoe?? Kenny asked as they walked along. ?Eh?? ?Did they get the idea for the Krell planet from Pittsburgh?? ?Krell planet?? ?In the movie we saw last night. The planet was deserted except for the machines.? ?Oh, you saw Forbidden Planet last night. No, Forbidden Planet was made a 100 years before Pittsburgh was mothballed.? ?Why do we call cities ?mothballed?? Does it have anything to do with moths? ?Actually it does,? Ed replied, as usual, happy to be educating children by the oldest method. ?The larvae of some kinds of moths eat clothing and blankets made of wool. More than 200 years ago, early chemistry workers discovered that a sharp smelling solid chemical from coal called naphthalene would keep the moths out of clothes. ? They paused at a Walk/Don?t Walk light that had been turned on for the party?s amusement by one of the city?s AIs. Ed went on: ?It was sold in little balls (Ed held his thumb and finger apart about half an inch) called ?mothballs.? People would store winter clothing and blankets over the summer with a handful of them. ?Eventually ?mothballed? came to mean anything that was protected and stored for possible future use.? Kenny looked thoughtful. ?How come adults know everything?? He asked. Ed laughed. ?We cheat.? Thirty years before the AI (or AIs) who were tasked with remembering and making presentations to CMU visitors would run up a palace of utility fog on the mall and present a 3D docudrama on the historical events around the emergence of AIs at CMU. Now, in deference to the attempt to raise children in a retro environment with features of the 1950s, the adults were directed by messages to their neural interfaces to the McConomy Auditorium, a 110-year-old theater in Carnegie Mellon?s central buildings. The 20-minute presentation to the adults and older kids (the younger ones could watch or play on the lawn) was in black and white newsreels format, much of it converted from videos of press conferences. ?Even with a nearly complete historical record from those times, it?s hard to pin down when the first AIs became full personalities.? The narrator spoke in a voice-over showing primitive robots and computers. ?The problem isn?t unique to AI history, there is a similar problem about the first railroad." (Montage of drawings and photographs of early trains.) "About the best we can say is that what we now think of as AIs didn?t exist before 2032 and definitely did by 2036. In that year there were more than a hundred scientific papers co-authored by AIs. Carnegie Mellon was at the forefront of this effort." (Shots of University labs and bits of recorded slow interactions with early AIs.) "The key insight was to equip AIs with carefully selected human motivations." ?The two biggest problems of the early 21 century were energy and medical treatment. CMU researchers contributed to both. ?Solar power from orbit solved, in fact, oversolved, the first by 2035.? (Shots of space elevators and power satellites in orbit, photos of rectenna farms.) ?Integrating AIs into nanomedicine clinics solved the medical treatment problem. It took only a few years. After that AIs and clinics could be ?grown? at low cost and they did their own upgrades, a lot of it in the field in Africa. They were too late for the smallpox epidemics that swept out of the Mid East. ?A side effect of the clinics and widespread use of virtual reality caused a physical world population crash in the mid-2050s and the mothballing of the cities.? (Simulated video of dense freeway traffic dwindling to an occasional car and then none.) The rest of the presentation was subtle propaganda mainly to the children and directed to the goal of them doing their part in enlarging the population. ***** After filling up the tanks, Mike backed the empty train out of the station. He operated the first switch he came to remotely and ran the train under the mainline, down the Neville street tracks, under Forbes Ave. and parked the train just north of Panther Hollow Lake. Stairs and a rudimentary platform had been installed along the depressed rail line. Mike set the brakes and shut down the engines. Only the chirping of birds broke the quiet that settled over the train. Mike sent a message to Ed that the train was ready for its passengers when they were. Then using a small bucket of utility fog as a mattress he settled down under a shade tree and took a nap to make up for staying up most of the night with friends in Greensburg. From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 21:45:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 16:45:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The subject of uploads was beaten to death in the earliest postings to this list. Keith I was not in on that, so I have resurrected it, I suppose. It does tell me why more aren't joining the posting of Ben and me. I love STross except for the horror novels. bill w On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 4:38 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The subject of uploads was beaten to death in the earliest postings to > this list. > > I should add that there was considerable concern about modifying basic > personality traits. I think Minsky had something to say about this in > Society of Mind. > > I have written a fair amount about this. Fiction is a problem because > if the entire race uploads (possible), you don't have characters in > your story. > > Keith > > PS. An unfinished story, this chapter follows The Clinic Seed and > UpLift. As writing goes, this isn't very good. If you want good, > read Stross's Accelerando, but it does show some of what went into > thinking about uploads long ago on this list. > > If you care about continuity, you might want to read the two chapters > around The Clinic Seed. > > Chapter 5 > > June 2106 > > > Seven-thirty a.m. the next morning, well after the sun peeped over the > Eastern hills, Jim Brody drove a little electric truck over from Seton > Hill and (with the help of a few kids who had woken up early) loaded > the dining car in the middle of the train with breakfast and lunch. > Dumping the wastewater tanks and refilling the water supplies in the > cars would have to wait. > > At 7:45 Ed Bledsoe lit off the diesel engines, cranking them from > local power, and let them warm up. Even with metering automation, Ed > knew the engines would smoke under load if they were not warmed up > properly. > > By 8 am the last of the parents had straggled down to the station. > > Half a dozen boys and two girls (early risers who had not stayed up > past midnight) came out when the engine > http://www.railfan.net/railpix/scott/subphoto.cgi?st-perris/e8truk.jpg > was started. Jim Brody, ticking off the parents as they came aboard > and consulting an unseen list of kids so they would all get at least > one ride in the cab, picked out a boy and a girl and sent them up the > ladder, letting the parents know where their kids were. He also > pulled the connector to local power and put the conductive nanotube > power cable back in its compartment. > > "All aboard!" > > Jim gave the proper historical hand signals to the engineer, backed up > by the engineer being aware of his signal by mind-to-mind local area > contact. As Jim closed the doors Ed advanced the throttle to one half > and then to 3/4. This woke up even the sleepiest of the kids. With > or without the help of adults they converted the bunks back into > seats. > > They either trooped off to the dining car in the middle of the train > or ate from the trolley pushed by two of the older girls who had > talked Jim into letting them do it. The main choice (made up by the > University dining hall kitchen the night before) was scrambled egg, > cheese, ham and bell pepper mix rolled up in a steamed flour tortilla > and a choice of fruits. The adults and some of the older kids drank > coffee and the younger kids had milk or chocolate milk in glass > bottles. > > Being from Trenton, all of the older kids had been in both New York to > the northeast and Philadelphia to the southwest on school outings. > Like those two cities, Pittsburgh had been mothballed 50 years ago in > the population crash. > > Like all the major cities, the suburbs of Pittsburgh had become > manicured parkland. With rare exceptions, the houses had been > encapsulated with diamond and sunk underground often with their > occupants. The streets were visible in some places and had been > removed in others. There were a lot of deer. They didn't see any > wolves. > > As they neared the more built-up center section of the town, the > bigger buildings had the sheen of diamond sheeting when the light hit > them right. Ed slowed the train to 40 mph so the kids could get a > good look > > An hour and a half after they left Greensburg the train pulled into > the huge covered platforms in the Pennsylvanian Union Train Station. > The platform roof had been partly removed at one time to accommodate a > freeway. The train buffs had won out over the auto buffs, the > concrete roadway beams had been replaced by thinner diamond beams and > the train platform roof replaced. > http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/burnham/burnham5.html > > The kids and adults spilled out of the train and walked through the > hotel lobby--which had also been the original ticket lobby--to the > rotunda that had originally sheltered horse carriages. Ed and Jim > Brody went with the kids and parents. > > Mike DeLong (fireman, brakeman and alternate engineer) was left in > charge of the train. He dragged a hose over to the idling E8 and > filled up the oil tank, dumped the wastewater tanks on the passenger > cars and refilled their water tanks. The diesel oil today was from > soybeans. Filling the tanks by hand was a concession to primitive > technology that he didn't mind. > > The train station had been built around 1900 and renovated 80 years > later with the associated hotel being turned into condominiums. The > condominiums were still ?occupied? in the sense that the bodies of the > owners were still in the building or more correctly under it. In the > rare event one of them came out for a stroll in the physical world, > their body was lifted to their condo before their consciousness was > shifted into their warmed up brain. > > The rest of the time, bodies were kept underground. ?Occupied? > buildings were reinforced with grown-in-place carbon nanotubes but the > clinic AIs would be unhappy if their patients were not kept as safe as > possible and that meant underground. > > When Ed and Jim reached the Rotunda, most of the kids were clustered > in the center looking up at the skylight with smaller numbers of them > looking out the archways. The skylight was entrancing with the > morning sunlight hitting the ridged diamond panes that had replaced > the original glass and scattering rainbows all over the floor. > > With some difficulty the children were rounded up and herded down the > deserted streets, first south, passing in front of the Mellon Arena, > fully ten times larger than the train station rotunda, then east on > Forbes Ave toward the campuses of the University of Pittsburgh and > Carnegie Mellon University. The three-mile walk through the deserted > city streets took about 40 minutes with the adults carrying the > smallest when they got tired. (They could have had carriages with > real horses if they had wanted them.) > > Like most urban schools, the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie > Mellon University had been shut down in the population crash. When > cities went under about 10 percent of their original population, they > became just too depressing for humans to live in. > > But like infrastructure everywhere, the city and Universities were > well maintained, roads and sidewalks clean, grass mowed, trees > trimmed, the buildings clean and without a broken window or a sagging > roof anywhere. Electric power and water were on, gas as well though > it was not used for heating, having been displaced by electric heat > and super insulation. Unless buildings were in use by physical state > humans, they were kept cold inside (but not freezing) winter and > summer alike to slow down the degradation of photographs, paper and > other physical artifacts from the pre-crash era. > > As they were crossing the bridge on Forbes Avenue over the train > tracks between Carnegie Mellon University and the University of > Pittsburgh, Kenny caught up the engineer. > > ?Mr. Bledsoe?? Kenny asked as they walked along. > > ?Eh?? > > ?Did they get the idea for the Krell planet from Pittsburgh?? > > ?Krell planet?? > > ?In the movie we saw last night. The planet was deserted except for > the machines.? > > ?Oh, you saw Forbidden Planet last night. No, Forbidden Planet was > made a 100 years before Pittsburgh was mothballed.? > > ?Why do we call cities ?mothballed?? Does it have anything to do with > moths? > > ?Actually it does,? Ed replied, as usual, happy to be educating > children by the oldest method. > > ?The larvae of some kinds of moths eat clothing and blankets made of > wool. More than 200 years ago, early chemistry workers discovered > that a sharp smelling solid chemical from coal called naphthalene > would keep the moths out of clothes. ? > > They paused at a Walk/Don?t Walk light that had been turned on for the > party?s amusement by one of the city?s AIs. Ed went on: > > ?It was sold in little balls (Ed held his thumb and finger apart about > half an inch) called ?mothballs.? People would store winter clothing > and blankets over the summer with a handful of them. > > ?Eventually ?mothballed? came to mean anything that was protected and > stored for possible future use.? > > Kenny looked thoughtful. > > ?How come adults know everything?? He asked. > > Ed laughed. ?We cheat.? > > Thirty years before the AI (or AIs) who were tasked with remembering > and making presentations to CMU visitors would run up a palace of > utility fog on the mall and present a 3D docudrama on the historical > events around the emergence of AIs at CMU. > > Now, in deference to the attempt to raise children in a retro > environment with features of the 1950s, the adults were directed by > messages to their neural interfaces to the McConomy Auditorium, a > 110-year-old theater in Carnegie Mellon?s central buildings. The > 20-minute presentation to the adults and older kids (the younger ones > could watch or play on the lawn) was in black and white newsreels > format, much of it converted from videos of press conferences. > > ?Even with a nearly complete historical record from those times, it?s > hard to pin down when the first AIs became full personalities.? The > narrator spoke in a voice-over showing primitive robots and computers. > > ?The problem isn?t unique to AI history, there is a similar problem > about the first railroad." (Montage of drawings and photographs of > early trains.) "About the best we can say is that what we now think > of as AIs didn?t exist before 2032 and definitely did by 2036. In > that year there were more than a hundred scientific papers co-authored > by AIs. Carnegie Mellon was at the forefront of this effort." > (Shots of University labs and bits of recorded slow interactions with > early AIs.) "The key insight was to equip AIs with carefully selected > human motivations." > > ?The two biggest problems of the early 21 century were energy and > medical treatment. CMU researchers contributed to both. > > ?Solar power from orbit solved, in fact, oversolved, the first by > 2035.? (Shots of space elevators and power satellites in orbit, > photos of rectenna farms.) > > ?Integrating AIs into nanomedicine clinics solved the medical > treatment problem. It took only a few years. After that AIs and > clinics could be ?grown? at low cost and they did their own upgrades, > a lot of it in the field in Africa. They were too late for the > smallpox epidemics that swept out of the Mid East. > > ?A side effect of the clinics and widespread use of virtual reality > caused a physical world population crash in the mid-2050s and the > mothballing of the cities.? (Simulated video of dense freeway traffic > dwindling to an occasional car and then none.) > > The rest of the presentation was subtle propaganda mainly to the > children and directed to the goal of them doing their part in > enlarging the population. > > ***** > > After filling up the tanks, Mike backed the empty train out of the > station. He operated the first switch he came to remotely and ran the > train under the mainline, down the Neville street tracks, under Forbes > Ave. and parked the train just north of Panther Hollow Lake. Stairs > and a rudimentary platform had been installed along the depressed rail > line. > > Mike set the brakes and shut down the engines. Only the chirping of > birds broke the quiet that settled over the train. Mike sent a > message to Ed that the train was ready for its passengers when they > were. Then using a small bucket of utility fog as a mattress he > settled down under a shade tree and took a nap to make up for staying > up most of the night with friends in Greensburg. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Mar 28 21:59:31 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 21:59:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d394684-a217-9dc9-083f-092ba7422d37@zaiboc.net> On 28/03/2020 20:21, billw wrote: > What you are describing is more or less Heaven on Earth, but without > golf. I have serious doubts that this will happen the way you say, but > who cares about my opinion? I have no idea if things will happen the way I describe, but so many people have what seems to me to be false (and frankly, ridiculous) ideas of what uploading would be like. I wanted to give a more realistic (in my view) description. > As a libertarian I'd let just about anything happen.? Who besides some > religious people would have any objections? Oh, you'd be surprised. Some people are dead against the idea on philosophical grounds (quite aside from religious ones). Extremely bad philosophical grounds, imo, but compelling to them. The worst thing is that some of these people don't just want to avoid uploading for themselves, they don't want /anyone/ doing it, they regard it as fundamentally evil or at least fatally misguided. Talk about uploading enough, and you'll soon find them crawling out of the woodwork. If you really want to expose yourself to this, just ask the dreaded (and silly) question: "Will a copy of you really be you?", then sit back and wait for the mouth-foaming to begin. If you want some solid ammunition against the usual objections, read "A Taxonomy and Metaphysics of Mind-Uploading" by Keith Wiley. Highly recommended. Very clear, excellent logical arguments and well-written. For me, reading it was the culmination of a long path that started with the first four pages of Linda Nagata's 'Vast' (mentioned below), and its depiction of an uploaded spaceship pilot. > What will the avatars be like?? Human body, computer brains linked to > yours?? Immobility would be a problem for me.? I'd want an avatar?able > to go anywhere as if I were there. Same answer as ever: Whatever you like (with certain limitations that have more to do with physics than anything else. Oh, and maybe legal questions. I don't suppose many people would object to a ban on avatars that guzzle woodland, belch out vast quantities of CO2 and manufacture nuclear weapons, for instance). Like I said before, forget 'human body', 'computer brain'. The technology required to make uploading as I describe it possible will render those terms meaningless. You could maybe say something like 'a synthetic body, with even greater sophistication than biological bodies, containing a similarly sophisticated synthetic brain capable of creating and linking to multiple virtual worlds'. We'd probably need a shorter, catchier name, though. > Will uploads vote?? Will anyone accumulate wealth enabling living for > centuries? Will democracy still exist? Will living for centuries (let's say millennia, shall we? Centuries seems a very modest goal) require any special accumulation of wealth? These are questions we can't answer. > I'd like to read a scifi book that has all this stuff in it. So would I. I know of none that has all of this stuff, but can recommend some authors that I've found interesting and inspirational, at least in parts: Greg Egan, Neal Asher, Linda Nagata (her 'Nanotech Succession' books), Richard Hamilton, Alastair Reynolds, Iain M Banks ('Culture' novels), Charlie Stross (Singularity Sky, Saturn's Children, etc.), Greg Bear, Gregory Benford, Robert Reed ('Great Ship' books: 'Marrow', etc.), Olaf Stapledon, among others. > ? There is very often no progress in those books, no visions for the > future. Plenty visions for the future, not all good, but very few actually try to chart an optimistic progressive path. Hardly surprising, though. Wars, murders, conflict etc., make for much better stories > Very long before what you describe happens, the human race with evolve > itself genetically, and quickly.? Yes, why wait for regular > evolution?.? It has already started on a very small scale. That is > what interests me more than the uploading, though of course I am > interested in that too. Time will tell. > It's a great thing and a curse to have all my interests.? ?bill w I can only agree with that. I try to practice attentional triage, but it's not easy... -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Mar 28 22:03:55 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 22:03:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Star Trek Picard (spoilers, be warned!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56c4bf91-d29c-0e6e-5c6e-b2377d63a156@zaiboc.net> Speaking of SF, anyone seen Star Trek: Picard? Anyone else disappointed by the last episode? I? know Star Trek has always been anti-transhumanist, but that takes the biscuit, for me. Kind of spoiled the whole series. -- Ben Zaiboc From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 23:22:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 18:22:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: <0d394684-a217-9dc9-083f-092ba7422d37@zaiboc.net> References: <0d394684-a217-9dc9-083f-092ba7422d37@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I have the same question as everyone else. I don't suppose that we will know until uploading just makes a copy and leaves the original intact. Then we'll see who's who! On a technical note: it is one thing to figure out what a neuron is doing and why - still difficult. But the glial cells far outnumber the neurons and we are mostly in the dark about them. And a different type of neuron has been found as of late. We are a long way away. It is of never ending amazement to me how much control many people want over other people. It's like asking a neighbor to cut down a tree because you don't like it. Prudes with Freudian problems, I say. Thanks for the authors, a couple of whom are new to me (the first three), but I will buy them as usual when I get a recommendation. Read all of Stross, Banks, and some of a couple of others. I also like some of the 'softer' scifi books such as Bujold (superior writer) and Kage Baker (who deserves far more fame than she got), ditto. I am getting softer myself and don't care for ugly people doing mean things, galactic overloads, lots of battles, descriptions of weapons etc. But you are probably right about what sells. Like I said before, forget 'human body', 'computer brain'. I had those in mind for the avatars. bill w On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 5:03 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 28/03/2020 20:21, billw wrote: > > What you are describing is more or less Heaven on Earth, but without > golf. I have serious doubts that this will happen the way you say, but who > cares about my opinion? > > I have no idea if things will happen the way I describe, but so many > people have what seems to me to be false (and frankly, ridiculous) ideas of > what uploading would be like. I wanted to give a more realistic (in my > view) description. > > As a libertarian I'd let just about anything happen. Who besides some > religious people would have any objections? > > > Oh, you'd be surprised. Some people are dead against the idea on > philosophical grounds (quite aside from religious ones). Extremely bad > philosophical grounds, imo, but compelling to them. The worst thing is that > some of these people don't just want to avoid uploading for themselves, > they don't want *anyone* doing it, they regard it as fundamentally evil > or at least fatally misguided. Talk about uploading enough, and you'll soon > find them crawling out of the woodwork. If you really want to expose > yourself to this, just ask the dreaded (and silly) question: "Will a copy > of you really be you?", then sit back and wait for the mouth-foaming to > begin. > > If you want some solid ammunition against the usual objections, read "A > Taxonomy and Metaphysics of Mind-Uploading" by Keith Wiley. Highly > recommended. Very clear, excellent logical arguments and well-written. For > me, reading it was the culmination of a long path that started with the > first four pages of Linda Nagata's 'Vast' (mentioned below), and its > depiction of an uploaded spaceship pilot. > > What will the avatars be like? Human body, computer brains linked to > yours? Immobility would be a problem for me. I'd want an avatar able to > go anywhere as if I were there. > > > Same answer as ever: Whatever you like (with certain limitations that have > more to do with physics than anything else. Oh, and maybe legal questions. > I don't suppose many people would object to a ban on avatars that guzzle > woodland, belch out vast quantities of CO2 and manufacture nuclear weapons, > for instance). > > Like I said before, forget 'human body', 'computer brain'. The technology > required to make uploading as I describe it possible will render those > terms meaningless. You could maybe say something like 'a synthetic body, > with even greater sophistication than biological bodies, containing a > similarly sophisticated synthetic brain capable of creating and linking to > multiple virtual worlds'. We'd probably need a shorter, catchier name, > though. > > Will uploads vote? Will anyone accumulate wealth enabling living for > centuries? > > > Will democracy still exist? Will living for centuries (let's say > millennia, shall we? Centuries seems a very modest goal) require any > special accumulation of wealth? These are questions we can't answer. > > I'd like to read a scifi book that has all this stuff in it. > > > So would I. > I know of none that has all of this stuff, but can recommend some authors > that I've found interesting and inspirational, at least in parts: > > Greg Egan, Neal Asher, Linda Nagata (her 'Nanotech Succession' books), > Richard Hamilton, Alastair Reynolds, Iain M Banks ('Culture' novels), > Charlie Stross (Singularity Sky, Saturn's Children, etc.), Greg Bear, > Gregory Benford, Robert Reed ('Great Ship' books: 'Marrow', etc.), Olaf > Stapledon, among others. > > > There is very often no progress in those books, no visions for the > future. > > Plenty visions for the future, not all good, but very few actually try to > chart an optimistic progressive path. Hardly surprising, though. Wars, > murders, conflict etc., make for much better stories > > Very long before what you describe happens, the human race with evolve > itself genetically, and quickly. Yes, why wait for regular evolution?. It > has already started on a very small scale. That is what interests me more > than the uploading, though of course I am interested in that too. > > Time will tell. > > It's a great thing and a curse to have all my interests. bill w > > > I can only agree with that. I try to practice attentional triage, but it's > not easy... > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:01:44 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:01:44 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Star Trek Picard (spoilers, be warned!) In-Reply-To: <56c4bf91-d29c-0e6e-5c6e-b2377d63a156@zaiboc.net> References: <56c4bf91-d29c-0e6e-5c6e-b2377d63a156@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 at 09:11, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Speaking of SF, anyone seen Star Trek: Picard? Anyone else disappointed > by the last episode? > > I know Star Trek has always been anti-transhumanist, but that takes the > biscuit, for me. Kind of spoiled the whole series. Yes, disappointing, pro-death and anti-enhancement; although I think these sentiments are rarely genuine but rather a sour grapes reaction. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:18:56 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 20:18:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 12:49 PM SR Ballard wrote: > I think high-IQ women actually are actually choosing to not have children, > rather than lack of appropriate mates. They believe (correctly in most > cases) that children will limit their ability to do the kind of work they > enjoy doing. Without nannies, there won?t really be anyone to take care of > the kids, as she likely selected a high-IQ mate. > ### Yes, there is an element of lack of love in this situation. It appears to me that in a lot people the love for their children is an afterthought - they don't start out with much of a desire to have children but once exposed to the smiles and cuteness they do develop parental feelings. This is not surprising - under natural conditions having children was to a large extent an effect of sex drive rather than a desire to have children. We evolved to have a sex drive - in men a simple desire to have sex with fertile and healthy females, in women a bit more complex drive strongly modified by hypergamy, the interest in powerful rather than merely pretty men. Since men can potentially have children with negligible effort, men don't need to be too picky about short-term mates, although we still need to be careful about the quality of long-term mates. For women having a child is inevitably more costly and therefore women have to choose their mates, even short-term mates, very carefully. This explains female hypergamy. Either way, children happen as a result of drives that do not consciously consider children. After a child is born, however, it must be supported and protected from human and non-human predators, which is why we evolved to trigger parental feelings after exposure to one's own child, and to a lesser extent, on exposure to younger siblings. The above psychological setup is an evolutionary hack that worked well under natural conditions but it fails miserably now. For example, most girls are not exposed to younger siblings during puberty, and the development of their parental feelings is weakened. And it's much easier to satisfy sex drive without having children, thanks to contraceptives and porn. Another factor is signaling. Under natural conditions, the survival of a woman's children depended not only on the social status of their father(s) but also on the social status of the woman. Women are driven to raise their social rank among other women, and today this drive finds a proxy outlet in careerism. To advance her career, a woman needs to signal conscientiousness, intelligence and conformity, and thus she ends up wasting her best child-bearing years in college, separated from children, engaging in unproductive sex and beavering away at credentials. So, yes, women today don't have as much love as their ancestors used to, and thus fewer children are born. And don't get me started on what's wrong with young men today, those whiny bastards. --------------------- > > However, lots of people who are high-IQ show some traits that might belong > to the ?Asperger? family, and their children are likely to have more of > these traits than either individual parent. This would limit the ability of > such children to produce offspring. > ### This is a pretty complicated subject, hard to address in a post. Autism is associated with low IQ but then high-IQ is mildly associated with some autistic traits. Hard to tell what is the overall impact on general fertility but I would think it's relatively minor. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:23:17 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 20:23:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 (John Clark) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 3:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > What about what a person is without augmentations? If you get uploaded > you are just a long string of code, right? So you can be anything you want > to be - just change the code. Now everyone is the same - the best code > can do. What is the point of that? You are just a computer that is no > better and no worse than any other computer. There is nothing > distinctive about you that cannot be duplicated by some one else. bill w > ### Well, there is copyright. Also, there are millions of coders today who write billions of lines of code to satisfy various needs. Similarly, in the future there will be enough room for billions of differently specialized uploads. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:27:47 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 17:27:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Star Trek Picard (spoilers, be warned!) In-Reply-To: References: <56c4bf91-d29c-0e6e-5c6e-b2377d63a156@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 5:04 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 at 09:11, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Speaking of SF, anyone seen Star Trek: Picard? Anyone else disappointed >> by the last episode? >> >> I know Star Trek has always been anti-transhumanist, but that takes the >> biscuit, for me. Kind of spoiled the whole series. > > > Yes, disappointing, pro-death and anti-enhancement; although I think these > sentiments are rarely genuine but rather a sour grapes reaction. > The entire Star Trek 'verse, especially the Federation, has long been anti-transhumanist. It's one of the elements that made the widespread use of cybernetics in Star Trek: Discovery somewhat jarring. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:28:13 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 20:28:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 8:40 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > ### This means that there is some positive > selection for IQ at all levels. However, IQ depends on a large number of > genes working perfectly together to create a very complex and finely tuned > structure - and the more genes there are, the more likely that some of them > will have more or less deleterious mutations. The fewer damaged genes you > have, the higher IQ you can achieve. > > Can you point to a study where this is discussed? I never heard this > theory before. > > Keith > ### I think I read about it in "Blueprint" by Robert Plomin. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlatorra at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:37:39 2020 From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 18:37:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Star Trek Picard (spoilers, be warned!) In-Reply-To: References: <56c4bf91-d29c-0e6e-5c6e-b2377d63a156@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Glad I went with my initial reaction and skipped the Picard series entirely. Mike L. On Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:04 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 at 09:11, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Speaking of SF, anyone seen Star Trek: Picard? Anyone else disappointed >> by the last episode? >> >> I know Star Trek has always been anti-transhumanist, but that takes the >> biscuit, for me. Kind of spoiled the whole series. > > > Yes, disappointing, pro-death and anti-enhancement; although I think these > sentiments are rarely genuine but rather a sour grapes reaction. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:40:47 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 20:40:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Book: How Not To Die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 6:28 AM JADE AND EUNICE CHANNEL via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How Not to Die: Surprising Lessons on Living Longer, Safer, and Healthier > from America's Favorite Medical Examiner > > "Thousands of people make an early exit each year and arrive on medical > examiner Jan Garavaglia?s table. What is particularly sad about this is > that many of these deaths could easily have been prevented. Although Dr. > Garavaglia, or Dr. G, as she?s known to many, could not tell these > individuals how to avoid their fates, we can benefit from her experience > and profound insight into the choices we make each day." > > "In *How Not to Die*, Dr. G acts as a medical detective to identify the > often-unintentional ways we harm our bodies, then shows us how to use that > information to live better and smarter. She provides startling tips on how > to make wise choices so that we don?t have to see her, or someone like her, > for a good, long time." > > https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Die-Surprising-Healthier-ebook/dp/B001HL9CDM > > ### $2.99 on Kindle! Bought immediately. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 01:17:05 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 21:17:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 4:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I'd like to read a scifi book that has all this stuff in it. There is > very often no progress in those books, no visions for the future. > > ### Consider reading Robin Hanson's "The Age of Em". This is not s-f but rather hard-headed economic analysis of a possible upload world. I disagree with some of his points but overall it's quite insightful, as you may expect. I don't think human genetic engineering will have an impact on our future. AI singularity will happen long before that, some uploading will happen after that, and genetic engineering of biological humans will be a niche activity, if any. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 01:27:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 20:27:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think human genetic engineering will have an impact on our future. AI singularity will happen long before that, some uploading will happen after that, and genetic engineering of biological humans will be a niche activity, if any. Rafa? Unless everyone is uploaded and no babies are born, then genetic engineering will perforce stop. Otherwise we will have babies and try to improve their genetics. Why not? I wonder how it would work out if babies were uploaded shortly after being born? Then you have a great deal of control over their environments. No diseases, no toilet training, no accidental or intentional deaths, and so on. Has anyone seen this idea before? Genetic engineering has already started. Screening for sickle cell anemia for example. I predict that there will be a lot of it and very soon. People will not be able to keep their hands off of Crispr. bill w On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 8:17 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 4:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> I'd like to read a scifi book that has all this stuff in it. There is >> very often no progress in those books, no visions for the future. >> >> > ### Consider reading Robin Hanson's "The Age of Em". This is not s-f but > rather hard-headed economic analysis of a possible upload world. I disagree > with some of his points but overall it's quite insightful, as you may > expect. > > I don't think human genetic engineering will have an impact on our future. > AI singularity will happen long before that, some uploading will happen > after that, and genetic engineering of biological humans will be a niche > activity, if any. > > Rafa? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 01:41:25 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 21:41:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 9:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't think human genetic engineering will have an impact on our future. > AI singularity will happen long before that, some uploading will happen > after that, and genetic engineering of biological humans will be a niche > activity, if any. > > Rafa? > > Unless everyone is uploaded and no babies are born, then genetic > engineering will perforce stop. Otherwise we will have babies and try to > improve their genetics. Why not? > > ### There may be biological humans sticking around long after all the real action moves online. The planets might be dispersed to provide substrate with good cooling capacity for trillions of non-biological minds, they sky might be blotted out by swarms of computing satellites, the Earth itself might be hollowed out and filled with long-term memory storage but maybe there will be some Amish around. Well, maybe they will tinker with genes and whatnot but as I said above, the real action will be elsewhere. After all, who cares what Coelacanths think? Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 03:17:01 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 20:17:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: "Will a copy of you really be you?" That's one of the questions that were answered in the early days. Yes, each and every one of them. Of course, after the coping, the copies start diverging as separate people. Now. do you want to make a copy? The proposed rule that came out of those discussions was since a copy has the same rights, you have to split your resources with the copy. If you make lots of copies, they are going to be poor. In "The Clinic Seed" and other places I proposed bidirectional uploading to avoid this problem. [List of SF authors] I have a problem with most SF authors, even ones I really like. The stories often have a galaxy full of high tech aliens. Good for stories, but this seems to be unlikely since it looks like we are alone in the galaxy and could be alone in the universe. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1806.02404.pdf by former list member Anders Sandberg. Keith From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 04:38:18 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 23:38:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EBD614E-8EB1-4575-9EAC-8B64343CC14E@gmail.com> >> However, lots of people who are high-IQ show some traits that might belong to the ?Asperger? family, and their children are likely to have more of these traits than either individual parent. This would limit the ability of such children to produce offspring. > > ### This is a pretty complicated subject, hard to address in a post. Autism is associated with low IQ but then high-IQ is mildly associated with some autistic traits. Hard to tell what is the overall impact on general fertility but I would think it's relatively minor. > > Rafa? Perhaps there is no causation, but there is correlation in this instance. Families with autistic members have an increased rate of children with autism. Older parents are more likely to have autistic children. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Mar 29 11:05:45 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 04:05:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Non-locality of conscious observers implies panpsychism without omniscience Message-ID: <20200329040545.Horde.Ty9wb3q5HIHHHFwqVMvw-dv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Consciousness (but not knowledge) might be non-local phenomenon. So here is an interesting thought experiment: Imagine a conscious observer. Now notice that while a conscious observer must have some none-zero rest mass, it is at all times at rest with respect to itself by definition of its own frame of reference. Consequently, its velocity and therefore momentum relative to itself is zero. This means that the uncertainty in the conscious observer's momentum is also zero. Since by the quantum mechanics of wave functions and Heisenberg uncertainty, zero uncertainty in your momentum is equivalent to infinite uncertainty in your position, the conscious observer exists throughout all of space. In other words, you have no clue which universe you are in BECAUSE you are in an infinite number of universes BECAUSE you are a conscious observer. And as a corollary no conscious observer is allowed by physics to be omniscient. Think about it as your soul passing through a slit of zero width and diffracting everywhere. This idea sounds very Deepak Chopra to even to me so be brutal. Tell me why it is wrong. Stuart LaForge From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 29 12:56:22 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:56:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <069d880a-7970-e270-c93b-ab3c4332a1b5@zaiboc.net> On 29/03/2020 00:19, Keith Henson wrote: > Fiction is a problem because > if the entire race uploads (possible), you don't have characters in > your story. Sorry, Keith, you've completely lost me there. Surely there's far more scope for storytelling in a world of uploads? The much wider range of environments, personalities, and plotlines that would be available? Greg Egan manages a whole novel where more than 90% of the characters and action are in an uploaded environment. What do you mean? -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 29 13:11:36 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 06:11:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <7EBD614E-8EB1-4575-9EAC-8B64343CC14E@gmail.com> References: <7EBD614E-8EB1-4575-9EAC-8B64343CC14E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004901d605cb$93f03020$bbd09060$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 However, lots of people who are high-IQ show some traits that might belong to the ?Asperger? family, and their children are likely to have more of these traits than either individual parent. This would limit the ability of such children to produce offspring. ### This is a pretty complicated subject, hard to address in a post. Autism is associated with low IQ but then high-IQ is mildly associated with some autistic traits. Hard to tell what is the overall impact on general fertility but I would think it's relatively minor. Rafa? >?Perhaps there is no causation, but there is correlation in this instance. Families with autistic members have an increased rate of children with autism. Older parents are more likely to have autistic children. For years I have been toying with the notion that perhaps Asperger?s is the form of autism in which the autistic person recognizes he or she is emotionally out of step with most of the rest of human race, but decides to try to join mainstream humanity. The person is mentally capable enough to look deep within and ask why, then take steps to counteract those factors. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 14:42:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:42:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Non-locality of conscious observers implies panpsychism without omniscience In-Reply-To: <20200329040545.Horde.Ty9wb3q5HIHHHFwqVMvw-dv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200329040545.Horde.Ty9wb3q5HIHHHFwqVMvw-dv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Tell me why it is wrong. Stuart LaForge I can't say that it is wrong. But this turns out to be useful in understanding, predicting, and controlling behavior (the aims of psychology) I'll be a toasted toad. This kind of thing tells me why we don't study any physics in psych grad school. bill w On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 6:09 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Consciousness (but not knowledge) might be non-local phenomenon. So > here is an interesting thought experiment: > > Imagine a conscious observer. Now notice that while a conscious > observer must have some none-zero rest mass, it is at all times at > rest with respect to itself by definition of its own frame of > reference. Consequently, its velocity and therefore momentum relative > to itself is zero. This means that the uncertainty in the conscious > observer's momentum is also zero. Since by the quantum mechanics of > wave functions and Heisenberg uncertainty, zero uncertainty in your > momentum is equivalent to infinite uncertainty in your position, the > conscious observer exists throughout all of space. In other words, you > have no clue which universe you are in BECAUSE you are in an infinite > number of universes BECAUSE you are a conscious observer. And as a > corollary no conscious observer is allowed by physics to be omniscient. > > Think about it as your soul passing through a slit of zero width and > diffracting everywhere. This idea sounds very Deepak Chopra to even to > me so be brutal. Tell me why it is wrong. > > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 16:03:56 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 03:03:56 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Non-locality of conscious observers implies panpsychism without omniscience In-Reply-To: <20200329040545.Horde.Ty9wb3q5HIHHHFwqVMvw-dv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200329040545.Horde.Ty9wb3q5HIHHHFwqVMvw-dv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 at 22:08, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Consciousness (but not knowledge) might be non-local phenomenon. So > here is an interesting thought experiment: > > Imagine a conscious observer. Now notice that while a conscious > observer must have some none-zero rest mass, it is at all times at > rest with respect to itself by definition of its own frame of > reference. Consequently, its velocity and therefore momentum relative > to itself is zero. This means that the uncertainty in the conscious > observer's momentum is also zero. Since by the quantum mechanics of > wave functions and Heisenberg uncertainty, zero uncertainty in your > momentum is equivalent to infinite uncertainty in your position, the > conscious observer exists throughout all of space. In other words, you > have no clue which universe you are in BECAUSE you are in an infinite > number of universes BECAUSE you are a conscious observer. And as a > corollary no conscious observer is allowed by physics to be omniscient. > > Think about it as your soul passing through a slit of zero width and > diffracting everywhere. This idea sounds very Deepak Chopra to even to > me so be brutal. Tell me why it is wrong. If you feel acceleration, your momentum has changed. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 16:13:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:13:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <004901d605cb$93f03020$bbd09060$@rainier66.com> References: <7EBD614E-8EB1-4575-9EAC-8B64343CC14E@gmail.com> <004901d605cb$93f03020$bbd09060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: For years I have been toying with the notion that perhaps Asperger?s is the form of autism in which the autistic person recognizes he or she is emotionally out of step with most of the rest of human race, but decides to try to join mainstream humanity. The person is mentally capable enough to look deep within and ask why, then take steps to counteract those factors. spike *Social and emotional intelligence are fairly recent topics in psychology, thanks to a few trailblazers like Goleman. Social awkwardness or at times cluelessness are all over the place relative to IQ or any other factor you can name. My own emotional intelligence is very, very high according to the online tests I take, but my social intelligence is below average (but not off the charts as some autistics and those with Asberger's are). I have discussed social situations with students 30 years my junior and have been corrected, taught, enlightened etc. by some of them. (That is typical of an INTJ, if you have any interest in the Myers Briggs.) I am now far more careful about what I say and do in social situations than I was much earlier in life. It's almost like AA - I want to go back and apologize to those I have hurt along the way with frankness and clumsiness, however innocently motivated.* *bill w* On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 8:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] shining example and COVID-19 > > > > > > However, lots of people who are high-IQ show some traits that might belong > to the ?Asperger? family, and their children are likely to have more of > these traits than either individual parent. This would limit the ability of > such children to produce offspring. > > > > ### This is a pretty complicated subject, hard to address in a post. > Autism is associated with low IQ but then high-IQ is mildly associated with > some autistic traits. Hard to tell what is the overall impact on general > fertility but I would think it's relatively minor. > > > > Rafa? > > > > >?Perhaps there is no causation, but there is correlation in this instance. > > > > Families with autistic members have an increased rate of children with > autism. > > > > Older parents are more likely to have autistic children. > > > > > > > > > > > > For years I have been toying with the notion that perhaps Asperger?s is > the form of autism in which the autistic person recognizes he or she is > emotionally out of step with most of the rest of human race, but decides to > try to join mainstream humanity. The person is mentally capable enough to > look deep within and ask why, then take steps to counteract those factors. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 29 17:12:48 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 18:12:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Non-locality of conscious observers implies panpsychism without omniscience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0c47d167-65a6-17cb-cc65-59ba131332ce@zaiboc.net> On 29/03/2020 17:14, Stuart LaForge asked: > Consciousness (but not knowledge) might be non-local phenomenon. So > here is an interesting thought experiment: > > Imagine a conscious observer. Now notice that while a conscious > observer must have some none-zero rest mass, it is at all times at > rest with respect to itself by definition of its own frame of > reference. Consequently, its velocity and therefore momentum relative > to itself is zero. This means that the uncertainty in the conscious > observer's momentum is also zero. Since by the quantum mechanics of > wave functions and Heisenberg uncertainty, zero uncertainty in your > momentum is equivalent to infinite uncertainty in your position, the > conscious observer exists throughout all of space. In other words, you > have no clue which universe you are in BECAUSE you are in an infinite > number of universes BECAUSE you are a conscious observer. And as a > corollary no conscious observer is allowed by physics to be omniscient. > > Think about it as your soul passing through a slit of zero width and > diffracting everywhere. This idea sounds very Deepak Chopra to even to > me so be brutal. Tell me why it is wrong. Easy. Heisenberg Uncertainty only applies to subatomic particles, not macroscopic objects. Zero subatomic particles have been demonstrated to be conscious observers but billions of macroscopic objects have been demonstrated to be. Therefore, Heisenberg Uncertainty /almost certainly/ (I have to say that for legal reasons) does not apply to conscious observers. Apart from that, I have difficulty with the notion above about 'souls passing through...'. Before that can even potentially mean anything, you need to define the word 'soul'. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 29 17:58:26 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 18:58:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Non-locality of conscious observers implies panpsychism without omniscience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d2120c3-6c86-550c-3dfb-8458ecc7b793@zaiboc.net> On 29/03/2020 17:14, billw wrote: > I can't say that it is wrong.? But this turns out to be useful in > understanding, predicting, and controlling behavior (the aims of > psychology) I'll be a toasted toad.? This kind of thing tells me why > we don't study any physics in psych grad school. Bill, this is not physics. Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle is physics, but panpsychism is not. I'm not quite sure what it is. Philosophy? Obviously it's not psychology. Certainly the mention of Deepak Chopra seems appropriate to me. Ah, here we are: Wikipedia is our friend. "Panpsychism In philosophy of mind..." OK, not even philosophy then, but 'philosophy of mind'. 'Nuff said. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 19:47:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 15:47:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Non-locality of conscious observers implies panpsychism without omniscience In-Reply-To: <20200329040545.Horde.Ty9wb3q5HIHHHFwqVMvw-dv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200329040545.Horde.Ty9wb3q5HIHHHFwqVMvw-dv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 7:09 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > Imagine a conscious observer. Now notice that while a > conscious observer must have some none-zero rest mass, it is at all times > at rest with respect to itself by definition of its own frame of reference. > Consequently, its velocity and therefore momentum relative to itself is > zero.* But that isn't unique to consciousness that's true of everything, the velocity of a billiard ball relative to itself is also zero. *> This means that the uncertainty in the conscious observer's momentum is > also zero.* The thing that is producing consciousness (a brain or a computer) may have a momentum but consciousness itself does not anymore than the number "eleven" or the adjective "fast" does. And if the position of your consciousness is at the Great Wall Of China its only because you happen to be thinking about the Great Wall Of China at that moment, and if instead you're thinking about the number eleven then your consciousness would have no position at all because eleven has no position. > > *Since by the quantum mechanics of wave functions and Heisenberg > uncertainty, zero uncertainty in your momentum is equivalent to infinite > uncertainty in your position,* Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle only works for nouns, that is to say stuff made of fermions or bosons, it doesn't work for adjectives or verbs. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 19:50:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 15:50:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Non-locality of conscious observers implies panpsychism without omniscience In-Reply-To: References: <20200329040545.Horde.Ty9wb3q5HIHHHFwqVMvw-dv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 12:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *If you feel acceleration, your momentum has changed.* > Either that or you're sitting on the surface of a planet massive enough to have a gravitational field. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Mar 29 20:03:51 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 21:03:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Science Fiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e3c7167-7b81-326f-76ef-ab44cc9c9d0e@zaiboc.net> On 15/03/2020 16:14, Guilio Prisco wrote: > The Expanse? Not explicitly transhumanist, but a very good SF show > compared to the others. Well, I'm giving this a go, but it's not exactly encouraging so far. About 6 episodes in, and it strikes me as trying too hard to be Blade Runner meets Total Recall, but without any androids or triple-breasted whores. I keep expecting the Miller character to start making little origami cranes and leaving them lying around. Not transhumanist at all, in any meaningful sense. Detective story, political intrigue, morally ambiguous rebels, etc. In space. I doubt it'll hold my interest much longer. -- Ben Zaiboc From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 20:36:27 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 13:36:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Non-locality of conscious observers implies panpsychism without omniscience In-Reply-To: <0c47d167-65a6-17cb-cc65-59ba131332ce@zaiboc.net> References: <0c47d167-65a6-17cb-cc65-59ba131332ce@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 10:15 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 29/03/2020 17:14, Stuart LaForge asked: > > Consciousness (but not knowledge) might be non-local phenomenon. So here > is an interesting thought experiment: > > Imagine a conscious observer. Now notice that while a conscious observer > must have some none-zero rest mass, it is at all times at rest with respect > to itself by definition of its own frame of reference. Consequently, its > velocity and therefore momentum relative to itself is zero. This means that > the uncertainty in the conscious observer's momentum is also zero. Since by > the quantum mechanics of wave functions and Heisenberg uncertainty, zero > uncertainty in your momentum is equivalent to infinite uncertainty in your > position, the conscious observer exists throughout all of space. In other > words, you have no clue which universe you are in BECAUSE you are in an > infinite number of universes BECAUSE you are a conscious observer. And as a > corollary no conscious observer is allowed by physics to be omniscient. > > Think about it as your soul passing through a slit of zero width and > diffracting everywhere. This idea sounds very Deepak Chopra to even to me > so be brutal. Tell me why it is wrong. > > > Easy. > Heisenberg Uncertainty only applies to subatomic particles, not > macroscopic objects. Zero subatomic particles have been demonstrated to be > conscious observers but billions of macroscopic objects have been > demonstrated to be. Therefore, Heisenberg Uncertainty *almost certainly* > (I have to say that for legal reasons) does not apply to conscious > observers. > Further, conscious observers that are not at absolute zero (which is all known conscious observers) are, by definition, not at rest with respect to themselves. That they have a temperature above absolute zero means their components are in motion - vibration at least - with respect to the rest of their mass. Since each component has a non-zero momentum, its location is also bound - far more tightly than "anywhere in the universe"), as it turns out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 21:36:14 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 14:36:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: On 29/03/2020 00:19, Keith Henson wrote: > Fiction is a problem because > if the entire race uploads (possible), you don't have characters in > your story. > Sorry, Keith, you've completely lost me there. > Surely there's far more scope for storytelling in a world of uploads? > The much wider range of environments, personalities, and plotlines that > would be available? > Greg Egan manages a whole novel where more than 90% of the characters > and action are in an uploaded environment. > What do you mean? The essence of characters in a story is to identify with them. Uploads, where the entities are much more than human (virtually god-like), are impossible to identify with. Or at least *I* don't know how to write a story with characters about as advanced over humans as much as humans are mentally advanced over, say, cats (or maybe cockroaches). I have no idea what might motivate them. The medical AI, Suskulan, who runs the clinic in "The Clinic Seed" is limited on purpose. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 21:57:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 16:57:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Science Fiction In-Reply-To: <1e3c7167-7b81-326f-76ef-ab44cc9c9d0e@zaiboc.net> References: <1e3c7167-7b81-326f-76ef-ab44cc9c9d0e@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I have not watched The EXpanse, but I have read all of the books and enjoyed them quite a bit. bill w On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 3:11 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 15/03/2020 16:14, Guilio Prisco wrote: > > The Expanse? Not explicitly transhumanist, but a very good SF show > > compared to the others. > > Well, I'm giving this a go, but it's not exactly encouraging so far. > About 6 episodes in, and it strikes me as trying too hard to be Blade > Runner meets Total Recall, but without any androids or triple-breasted > whores. I keep expecting the Miller character to start making little > origami cranes and leaving them lying around. > > Not transhumanist at all, in any meaningful sense. Detective story, > political intrigue, morally ambiguous rebels, etc. In space. I doubt > it'll hold my interest much longer. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 22:00:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:00:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Uploads, where the entities are much more than human (virtually god-like), are impossible to identify with. Keith Hmm? I thought uploads were just ordinary people, though probably rather advanced intellectually and culturally. How do they get to be demigods? bill w On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 4:39 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ben Zaiboc wrote: > > On 29/03/2020 00:19, Keith Henson wrote: > > Fiction is a problem because > > if the entire race uploads (possible), you don't have characters in > > your story. > > > Sorry, Keith, you've completely lost me there. > > > Surely there's far more scope for storytelling in a world of uploads? > > The much wider range of environments, personalities, and plotlines that > > would be available? > > > Greg Egan manages a whole novel where more than 90% of the characters > > and action are in an uploaded environment. > > > What do you mean? > > The essence of characters in a story is to identify with them. > Uploads, where the entities are much more than human (virtually > god-like), are impossible to identify with. Or at least *I* don't > know how to write a story with characters about as advanced over > humans as much as humans are mentally advanced over, say, cats (or > maybe cockroaches). I have no idea what might motivate them. > > The medical AI, Suskulan, who runs the clinic in "The Clinic Seed" is > limited on purpose. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 22:30:12 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 15:30:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] geometry of solar system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 9:24 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Either the earth goes around the sun or it doesn't." > > Is that true? > Mostly. The Earth and the Sun actually go around a point in between their centers of mass. Though, this point stays deep within the commonly recognized boundaries of the Sun. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 05:22:19 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 00:22:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8DF51391-ADF6-41F2-B198-C56392BE04C2@gmail.com> Think of it like this: Have you ever played a video game? The characters you play can do thinks which are not possible for you to do. But you can still relate to those characters. How is writing about uploaded people any different to Fantasy and soft SF? SR Ballard > On Mar 29, 2020, at 4:36 PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > Ben Zaiboc wrote: > >> On 29/03/2020 00:19, Keith Henson wrote: >> Fiction is a problem because >> if the entire race uploads (possible), you don't have characters in >> your story. > >> Sorry, Keith, you've completely lost me there. > >> Surely there's far more scope for storytelling in a world of uploads? >> The much wider range of environments, personalities, and plotlines that >> would be available? > >> Greg Egan manages a whole novel where more than 90% of the characters >> and action are in an uploaded environment. > >> What do you mean? > > The essence of characters in a story is to identify with them. > Uploads, where the entities are much more than human (virtually > god-like), are impossible to identify with. Or at least *I* don't > know how to write a story with characters about as advanced over > humans as much as humans are mentally advanced over, say, cats (or > maybe cockroaches). I have no idea what might motivate them. > > The medical AI, Suskulan, who runs the clinic in "The Clinic Seed" is > limited on purpose. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 06:34:37 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 08:34:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Science Fiction In-Reply-To: References: <1e3c7167-7b81-326f-76ef-ab44cc9c9d0e@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: One thing that I like very much about The Expanse show is that it stays very close to the book. Too many other good SF books have been ruined by film and TV adaptations. On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 11:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I have not watched The EXpanse, but I have read all of the books and enjoyed them quite a bit. > > bill w > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 3:11 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> On 15/03/2020 16:14, Guilio Prisco wrote: >> > The Expanse? Not explicitly transhumanist, but a very good SF show >> > compared to the others. >> >> Well, I'm giving this a go, but it's not exactly encouraging so far. >> About 6 episodes in, and it strikes me as trying too hard to be Blade >> Runner meets Total Recall, but without any androids or triple-breasted >> whores. I keep expecting the Miller character to start making little >> origami cranes and leaving them lying around. >> >> Not transhumanist at all, in any meaningful sense. Detective story, >> political intrigue, morally ambiguous rebels, etc. In space. I doubt >> it'll hold my interest much longer. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 10:09:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 06:09:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 11:22 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> since a copy has the same rights, you have to split your resources with > the copy. If you make lots of copies, they are going to be poor. In "The > Clinic Seed" and other places I proposed bidirectional uploading to avoid > this problem.* What's "bidirectional uploading"? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Mar 30 13:30:01 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:30:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80585f0d-a438-3264-b9f8-00e6ece128a1@zaiboc.net> Someone (Rafal or Stathis, I don't remember which) wrote: "It would be a problem if uploads could just maximise positive reinforcement without going to any effort. It has even been postulated that this is an explanation of the Fermi paradox: once civilisations become advanced enough, they transfer their minds to a virtual Heaven, and stop being interested in exploring the universe" That's an idea that crops up quite a bit, but to be honest, I don't fully buy it. Why would anyone with any sense at all deliberately put themselves in such a state, knowing that it could well doom them to extinction? Especially when it would be so easy to avoid. Being in a virtual paradise would not per se doom anyone to extinction, but losing interest in the wider universe easily could. As I posted before, things like nearby supernovae are existential threats to biological beings, but they would be very dangerous to /any/ computing substrate. If I'd uploaded myself into some paradise, I'd be very wary of simply losing interest in the enormous and hostile outside world. That sounds like a recipe for suicide, to me. At the very least, I'd want some automated systems capable of recognising and initiating a response to any threats like that. Maybe we shouldn't be looking for direct evidence of alien civilisations, but for their defence mechanisms. Even better than just defence mechanisms would be to create a nice safe, quiet neighbourhood in the first place. With added defences on top. Maybe the hallmarks of advanced civilisations aren't Dyson Swarms and other mega-engineering projects, but failed supernovae, and nearby super-stable stars that would provide a steady supply of energy for very long periods of time, systems with little or no rubble in ever-changing orbits, that kind of thing. Maybe we should be looking for 'Volvo' star systems: Suspiciously quiet, safe and long-lived. Aren't something like 60% of the stars in our galaxy nice, quiet, stable, long-lived red dwarfs? Maybe our alien neighbours have been in plain sight all along. -- Ben Zaiboc -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 16:52:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 11:52:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] nutrition 'science'?? Message-ID: Just forget everything you have read on this subject, according to this article (except salt,folate for pregnant women, and vitamin D) https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3076863/food-science-should-we-believe-anything-we-read I also assume that many studies have the defects we now know about resulting from using significance tests a la Fisher. All Bayes all the time? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:50:54 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:50:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: <80585f0d-a438-3264-b9f8-00e6ece128a1@zaiboc.net> References: <80585f0d-a438-3264-b9f8-00e6ece128a1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 6:32 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Someone (Rafal or Stathis, I don't remember which) wrote: > > "It would be a problem if uploads could just maximise positive > reinforcement without going to any effort. It has even been postulated that > this is an explanation of the Fermi paradox: once civilisations become > advanced enough, they transfer their minds to a virtual Heaven, and stop > being interested in exploring the universe" > > > That's an idea that crops up quite a bit, but to be honest, I don't fully > buy it. Why would anyone with any sense at all deliberately put themselves > in such a state, knowing that it could well doom them to extinction? > Especially when it would be so easy to avoid. Being in a virtual paradise > would not per se doom anyone to extinction, but losing interest in the > wider universe easily could. > Because some people really can't let go of the notion that their lives are extremely finite, and being genuinely happy for the rest of what time they have truly is their primary goal. Such individuals will likely not be around in ten thousand years, if even one thousand. Once they are uploaded and happy to the point that they have let all their social connections lapse - once there is no one left who cares about them, and once they cease to care about anyone else, in other words once they have gone fully sociopathic (using their generated environment, including generated AIs, to sub in for any need for socialization) in pursuit of happiness - they are likely to be switched off when some crisis or another comes along, perhaps simply the hardware they're running on needing maintenance and nobody outside the hardware caring about anyone running on it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:52:41 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:52:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 3:12 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 11:22 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> since a copy has the same rights, you have to split your resources with >> the copy. If you make lots of copies, they are going to be poor. In "The >> Clinic Seed" and other places I proposed bidirectional uploading to avoid >> this problem.* > > > What's "bidirectional uploading"? > At a guess, being able to merge uploads: make a copy (uploading in one direction), then later on merging the copy's memories et al with the original (uploading in the other direction). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 18:28:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:28:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: <80585f0d-a438-3264-b9f8-00e6ece128a1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: > > . Once they are uploaded and happy to the point that they have let all > their social connections lapse - > Why would they do that? The chief pleasure of many extroverts in talking with people and sharing ideas and so on. > once there is no one left who cares about them, and once they cease to > care about anyone else, in other words once they have gone fully > sociopathic (using their generated environment, > Again, why would friendships disappear? If they weren't sociopaths before uploading, why would they be afterwards? > including generated AIs, to sub in for any need for socialization) in > pursuit of happiness - they are likely to be switched off when some crisis > or another comes along, perhaps simply the hardware they're running on > needing maintenance and nobody outside the hardware caring about anyone > running on it. > I am sure you mean 'socializing'. And again, why shouldn't nonuploads and uploads be friends? I don't get where you are coming from. Surely you are not saying that these changes are going to occur to everyone, eh? bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 19:03:17 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:03:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads Message-ID: ohn Clark wrote: snip > What's "bidirectional uploading"? I guess you did not read the story. When the characters in the story are uploaded, their biological brain is updated with what they experience in the simulated world. They can move their seat of consciousness into the uploaded simulation and back to their original biological body whenever they want. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 19:21:04 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:21:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: <80585f0d-a438-3264-b9f8-00e6ece128a1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 11:36 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Once they are uploaded and happy to the point that they have let all their >> social connections lapse - >> > > Why would they do that? The chief pleasure of many extroverts in talking > with people and sharing ideas and so on. > "People". Notice that several are happy talking to manufactured personalities - yes-men currently, but sub-sentient super-chatbots can form echo chambers around a single person. Yes, there are those who aren't happy with perfect agreement, and who really want their ideas refined. Those are the ones more likely to still connect to actual people. once there is no one left who cares about them, and once they cease to care >> about anyone else, in other words once they have gone fully sociopathic >> (using their generated environment, >> > > Again, why would friendships disappear? If they weren't sociopaths before > uploading, why would they be afterwards? > Are they interested in actually connecting to people, or just to feeling important & valued? Can they connect to AIs customized to their preferences better than to other people? In many cases, this seems to be so - when such AIs are offered, which is rare (AIs aren't good enough for most cases yet). > I don't get where you are coming from. Surely you are not saying that > these changes are going to occur to everyone, eh? > Not everyone, just many. I am speculating that these will occur to a significant number of people, perhaps the majority - but more importantly, that the people susceptible to this kind of thing are unlikely to still be around (at least as a substantial percentage of all people) in ten thousand years. In other words, that the type of values that put self-esteem and self-importance above true value to other actual human beings are likely to die out once it becomes trivial for people with said values to retire and disconnect from society (where currently they must work to feed themselves for most of their lives, and even in retirement they can not get their desired fulfillment except from other people). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 20:16:25 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:16:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: <80585f0d-a438-3264-b9f8-00e6ece128a1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 2:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Once they are uploaded and happy to the point that they have let all >> their social connections lapse - >> > > >> Why would they do that? The chief pleasure of many extroverts in > talking with people and sharing ideas and so on. > But if somebody had total control of their emotional control panel then they could change that so their chief pleasure would come from whatever they wanted it to come from. A cheap rubber ball is easier to come across than other people that are friendly, intelligent and eloquent, so to maximize their pleasure they could just change the settings on a few switches on their control panel and make it so they find equal joy and NEVER get bored of watching the ball bounce up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down and.... They may want to have the same feeling of awe and pride of accomplishment that Einstein must have felt on the day he finished the General Theory Of Relativity, but what if they aren't as smart as he was? No problem, they could just find a solution to some problem that was much much much simpler than the one Einstein tackled and feel just as good and full of pride as he did. Do you think everything I've said is diabolical as well as stupid? No problem, just change your mind, and I do mean CHANGE YOUR MIND. Now you think the idea is angelic and brilliant. Such is the power of positive feedback that ET may not have gone out with a bang or a whimper but with a moan of pleasure. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 20:38:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:38:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fermi Paradox and Volvo star systems In-Reply-To: References: <80585f0d-a438-3264-b9f8-00e6ece128a1@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: > > >> Why would they do that? The chief pleasure of many extroverts in > talking with people and sharing ideas and so on. > But if somebody had total control of their emotional control panel then they could change that so their chief pleasure would come from whatever they wanted it to come from. John >From what I read, solitary confinement is truly a horrible form of punishment. Some people go bats after just a few days. There is something very basic about being around other people Way back in history being kicked out of a tribe was the worst punishment possible. The victim usually tried to get into another one rather than live alone, which would have been a very spare life at that. I don't know if the mind is totally changeable. I suspect it isn't. On Quora I find a lot of questions about changing one's self, one's habits. The reason is that they are difficult to very difficult to accomplish. In uploads it might be easy, but if I liked sour cream blueberry pie, which is in the oven as we speak, why would I want to change that? If I were an introvert upload and wanted to change to extrovert, I could, but why would I? I am comfortable with what I have. I dunno. A lot of this seems so artificial, and of course that's all it is. I am deeply romantic and would hate to see that changed in any way. I hate what we are doing to this planet and don't want to live in a habitat circling Jupiter or somewhere. Why mess with perfection? bill w On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 3:20 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 2:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Once they are uploaded and happy to the point that they have let all >>> their social connections lapse - >>> >> >> >> Why would they do that? The chief pleasure of many extroverts in >> talking with people and sharing ideas and so on. >> > > But if somebody had total control of their emotional control panel then > they could change that so their chief pleasure would come from whatever > they wanted it to come from. A cheap rubber ball is easier to come across > than other people that are friendly, intelligent and eloquent, so to > maximize their pleasure they could just change the settings on a few > switches on their control panel and make it so they find equal joy and > NEVER get bored of watching the ball bounce up and down and up and down and > up and down and up and down and.... > > They may want to have the same feeling of awe and pride of accomplishment > that Einstein must have felt on the day he finished the General Theory Of > Relativity, but what if they aren't as smart as he was? No problem, they > could just find a solution to some problem that was much much much simpler > than the one Einstein tackled and feel just as good and full of pride as he > did. > > Do you think everything I've said is diabolical as well as stupid? No > problem, just change your mind, and I do mean CHANGE YOUR MIND. Now you > think the idea is angelic and brilliant. Such is the power of positive > feedback that ET may not have gone out with a bang or a whimper but with a > moan of pleasure. > > John K Clark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 20:46:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:46:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] As of today more Americans have died from Covid-19 than in 911 Message-ID: Last Thursday on March 26 at 4:22 pm I wrote this: *"Exactly one week ago the US had 8,898 confirmed cases of COVID-19, today it has 81,476, the highest of any nation in the world. One week ago there were only 149 deaths from COVID-19, as of today there has been 1180 deaths. And there is not the slightest sign the death rate is slowing down. That doesn't sound like an overreaction to me. And unlike some, in my opinion I don't think it would be beautiful to have packed churches on Easter."* Even though my words are only 4 days old they are hopelessly out of date. Today in America at 4:25 PM there are 159,689 people that have gotten sick and 154,469 are still sick. And 2,951 Americans have died from Covid-19. In 911 only 2605 Americans died. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:33:58 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:33:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] As of today more Americans have died from Covid-19 than in 911 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The relevant stat is not deaths, but deaths-above-actuarial-baseline. A stat, I note, that no one is even /slightly/ trying to calculate, and that seems taboo to even mention in polite society. On 9/11, the overwhelming majority, perhaps even all if those deaths, were deaths-above-actuarial-baseline. Maybe a few of thise people would statistically died from heart attacks and car accidents, but not many. IIRC Eliezer Yudkowsky reported that 9/11 was worth 30 minutes of humanity's baseline death rate. It is not obvious that most COVID deaths are above the actuarial baseline for their demographics. Every death matters. But 3000 deaths sounds a lot scarier than 2950 deaths from causes we feel comfortable with, plus 50 extra deaths from an unusual circumstance. If a COVID death pre-empts and replaces a cancer, heart disease, or car accident death that statistically would have occurred during the same period, does it really have a public policy, let alone a political implication? On Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 2:57 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Last Thursday on March 26 at 4:22 pm I wrote this: > > *"Exactly one week ago the US had 8,898 confirmed cases of COVID-19, today > it has 81,476, the highest of any nation in the world. One week ago there > were only 149 deaths from COVID-19, as of today there has been 1180 deaths. > And there is not the slightest sign the death rate is slowing down. That > doesn't sound like an overreaction to me. And unlike some, in my opinion I > don't think it would be beautiful to have packed churches on Easter."* > > Even though my words are only 4 days old they are hopelessly out of date. > Today in America at 4:25 PM there are 159,689 people that have gotten sick > and 154,469 are still sick. And 2,951 Americans have died from Covid-19. In > 911 only 2605 Americans died. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:55:48 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 15:55:48 -0600 Subject: [ExI] As of today more Americans have died from Covid-19 than in 911 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I stand corrected. Precisely one person has taken a public stab at calculating this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/judithcurry.com/2020/03/25/covid-19-updated-data-implies-that-uk-modelling-hugely-overestimates-the-expected-death-rates-from-infection/amp/ On Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 3:33 PM Darin Sunley wrote: > The relevant stat is not deaths, but deaths-above-actuarial-baseline. A > stat, I note, that no one is even /slightly/ trying to calculate, and that > seems taboo to even mention in polite society. > > On 9/11, the overwhelming majority, perhaps even all if those deaths, were > deaths-above-actuarial-baseline. Maybe a few of thise people would > statistically died from heart attacks and car accidents, but not many. IIRC > Eliezer Yudkowsky reported that 9/11 was worth 30 minutes of humanity's > baseline death rate. > > It is not obvious that most COVID deaths are above the actuarial baseline > for their demographics. > > Every death matters. But 3000 deaths sounds a lot scarier than 2950 deaths > from causes we feel comfortable with, plus 50 extra deaths from an unusual > circumstance. If a COVID death pre-empts and replaces a cancer, heart > disease, or car accident death that statistically would have occurred > during the same period, does it really have a public policy, let alone a > political implication? > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 2:57 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Last Thursday on March 26 at 4:22 pm I wrote this: >> >> *"Exactly one week ago the US had 8,898 confirmed cases of COVID-19, >> today it has 81,476, the highest of any nation in the world. One week ago >> there were only 149 deaths from COVID-19, as of today there has been 1180 >> deaths. And there is not the slightest sign the death rate is slowing down. >> That doesn't sound like an overreaction to me. And unlike some, in my >> opinion I don't think it would be beautiful to have packed churches on >> Easter."* >> >> Even though my words are only 4 days old they are hopelessly out of date. >> Today in America at 4:25 PM there are 159,689 people that have gotten sick >> and 154,469 are still sick. And 2,951 Americans have died from Covid-19. In >> 911 only 2605 Americans died. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 22:05:08 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:05:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] As of today more Americans have died from Covid-19 than in 911 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 6:00 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I stand corrected. Precisely one person has taken a public stab at > calculating this.* > > > https://www.google.com/amp/s/judithcurry.com/2020/03/25/covid-19-updated-data-implies-that-uk-modelling-hugely-overestimates-the-expected-death-rates-from-infection/amp/ > But that was based on ANCIENT data, nearly 5 days old! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 22:21:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:21:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] As of today more Americans have died from Covid-19 than in 911 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 5:34 PM Darin Sunley wrote: > *Yudkowsky reported that 9/11 was worth 30 minutes of humanity's baseline > death rate.* Very few people were injured in 911, but COVID-19 made 159,689 people sick in the USA alone, and nearly all of them are still sick, that's a lot of lost man hours. And this thing is just getting started. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 23:28:03 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:28:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I always thought it would be good to ?sync? while you are sleeping. SR Ballard > On Mar 30, 2020, at 2:03 PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > ohn Clark wrote: > > snip > >> What's "bidirectional uploading"? > > I guess you did not read the story. When the characters in the story > are uploaded, their biological brain is updated with what they > experience in the simulated world. They can move their seat of > consciousness into the uploaded simulation and back to their original > biological body whenever they want. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Mar 31 10:11:01 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 11:11:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30/03/2020 18:53, Keith Henson wrote: > Ben Zaiboc wrote: > > On 29/03/2020 00:19, Keith Henson wrote: >> Fiction is a problem because >> if the entire race uploads (possible), you don't have characters in >> your story. >> Sorry, Keith, you've completely lost me there. >> Surely there's far more scope for storytelling in a world of uploads? >> The much wider range of environments, personalities, and plotlines that >> would be available? >> Greg Egan manages a whole novel where more than 90% of the characters >> and action are in an uploaded environment. >> What do you mean? > The essence of characters in a story is to identify with them. > Uploads, where the entities are much more than human (virtually > god-like), are impossible to identify with. Or at least*I* don't > know how to write a story with characters about as advanced over > humans as much as humans are mentally advanced over, say, cats (or > maybe cockroaches). I have no idea what might motivate them. > > The medical AI, Suskulan, who runs the clinic in "The Clinic Seed" is > limited on purpose. Ah, I see. OK, that's not a problem with stories about uploads per se., it's a problem with stories about anything more intelligent than the author (or the readers). And it only holds true for uploads if you assume they will inevitably be more intelligent (I'm not saying that's not a fair assumption, just pointing it out). The solution is simply to write about uploads that are not more intelligent than you are. Which is what Greg Egan did (he didn't write about uploads that were not more intelligent than me, though, I haven't a clue what some of the dialogue is actually about, when it goes off into theoretical physics and advanced maths). I suspect it's an overblown objection, myself (for writing stories). It shouldn't prevent an author from making stories, if for no other reason than that they are just that, stories. Telling stories isn't an exercise in trying to get things right, or predicting the future. I'd be quite happy to read good stories about uploads that are no more intelligent than I am, and I think it would be a worthwhile effort, because it's a way to familiarise readers with some concepts that they may otherwise find bizarre and uncomfortable (and frightening) when they actually turn up in real life. That seems to me a very good reason for writing such stories, no matter how unrealistic they might be in terms of the psychology and motivations of real uploads. If you want to frighten people and foster resistance to a new idea, keep it unfamiliar, unknowable and intrinsically different to what they know. I suggest doing the opposite with the idea of uploading. I'd rate the chances of successful acceptance far higher if there was at least a segment of society (beyond geeks like us) who find the idea of uploading exciting, full of possibilities, something to look forward to (even if they think it's all a bit pie-in-the-sky) than if the only exposure to the idea that most people had was from the luddites and bioconservatives, etc. I just wish I had some skill as an author, or I'd be doing it myself! -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 16:25:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:25:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The solution is simply to write about uploads that are not more > intelligent than you are. Which is what Greg Egan did* That's a good solution if you want to write a story that bipedal hominids could read with understanding and enjoyment, in fact it's the only possible solution a fiction writer has, but it's not realistic. It's called a singularity for a reason, beyond a certain point human imagination and intelligence just isn't good enough to figure out how things would really be. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 16:49:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:49:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese Message-ID: Just a few minutes ago yet another COVID-19 milestone was reached, it has now caused more deaths in the USA than it has in China where it all started; 3305 died in China but as of right now 3408 have died in the USA and by this time tomorrow it will be many hundreds higher. So I think I can say it is an objective fact that even though the USA had about a 45 day warning that China did not China handled this emergency much more skillfully than America has. And despite what some have written my saying that doesn't prove I'm advocating communism, it just shows I think reality must take precedence over public relations because nature can not be fooled. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 31 17:08:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:08:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? And despite what some have written my saying that doesn't prove I'm advocating communism, it just shows I think reality must take precedence over public relations because nature can not be fooled. John K Clark Nature cannot be fooled but people can. I noticed that the covid death rate in China dropped dramatically the minute western observers were ejected. It?s a miracle! Or the western observers were somehow causing the deaths. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 17:13:28 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:13:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John- If you follow any news around deaths in China, that number is WOEFULLY under counted. On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Just a few minutes ago yet another COVID-19 milestone was reached, it has > now caused more deaths in the USA than it has in China where it all > started; 3305 died in China but as of right now 3408 have died in the USA > and by this time tomorrow it will be many hundreds higher. So I think I can > say it is an objective fact that even though the USA had about a 45 day > warning that China did not China handled this emergency much more > skillfully than America has. And despite what some have written my saying > that doesn't prove I'm advocating communism, it just shows I think reality > must take precedence over public relations because nature can not be fooled. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 17:19:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:19:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I noticed that the covid death rate in China dropped dramatically the minute western observers were ejected. It?s a miracle! Or the western observers were somehow causing the deaths. spike Why not just state the obvious: they are lying. bill w On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > *>?* And despite what some have written my saying that doesn't prove I'm > advocating communism, it just shows I think reality must take precedence > over public relations because nature can not be fooled. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > Nature cannot be fooled but people can. > > > > I noticed that the covid death rate in China dropped dramatically the > minute western observers were ejected. It?s a miracle! Or the western > observers were somehow causing the deaths. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 17:26:26 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 11:26:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Y'all are clearly ignoring the 10th axiom of ZFT (Zermelo-Fraenkel-Trump) set theory: Numbers that make a sitting Republican president look bad are always true. On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 11:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John- > > If you follow any news around deaths in China, that number is WOEFULLY > under counted. > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Just a few minutes ago yet another COVID-19 milestone was reached, it has >> now caused more deaths in the USA than it has in China where it all >> started; 3305 died in China but as of right now 3408 have died in the USA >> and by this time tomorrow it will be many hundreds higher. So I think I can >> say it is an objective fact that even though the USA had about a 45 day >> warning that China did not China handled this emergency much more >> skillfully than America has. And despite what some have written my saying >> that doesn't prove I'm advocating communism, it just shows I think reality >> must take precedence over public relations because nature can not be fooled. >> >> John K Clark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 17:28:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:28:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In case anyone doubts they are lying about every aspect of this outbreak, here is their official manufacturing data number that was just announced: China's official manufacturing PMI went from 35.7 in Feb to 52.0 in March, its highest level since September 2017. This number is beyond the pale, and I can guarantee you that not a SINGLE outside financial markets observer believes it. On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 1:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I noticed that the covid death rate in China dropped dramatically the > minute western observers were ejected. It?s a miracle! Or the western > observers were somehow causing the deaths. > > > > spike > > > Why not just state the obvious: they are lying. bill w > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >> >> *>?* And despite what some have written my saying that doesn't prove I'm >> advocating communism, it just shows I think reality must take precedence >> over public relations because nature can not be fooled. >> >> >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Nature cannot be fooled but people can. >> >> >> >> I noticed that the covid death rate in China dropped dramatically the >> minute western observers were ejected. It?s a miracle! Or the western >> observers were somehow causing the deaths. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 31 17:37:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:37:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese I noticed that the covid death rate in China dropped dramatically the minute western observers were ejected. It?s a miracle! Or the western observers were somehow causing the deaths?spike Why not just state the obvious: they are lying. bill w They claim the US observers were infecting Chinese people, intentionally, those sneaky evil capitalist reporters. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 17:47:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:47:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: South Korea reported its first case of COVID-19 on the same day the USA did. But South Korea has per capita tested 5 times as many people as the USA did and even more important they tested EARLY at the very start of the epidemic. As a result only 162 people in Korea have died and the new case curve is flat not growing exponentially. And because they took this thing very seriously from day one the Koreans managed to beat the virus without shutting down their economy; it's too late for the US to follow the Korean example now, we must shut everything down for at least 6 weeks if we don't want the death toll to climb into the millions. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 18:03:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:03:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pictures Message-ID: A few months ago we were sharing pictures of ourselves and I never got around to putting up mine. So just go to Facebook and search for; william flynn wallace bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 18:33:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:33:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If China is lying about the true number of COVID-19 cases they have then the entire world will very soon learn the truth because they are starting to open things up again and restart their economy; if things are not as good as they're claiming they are then the epidemic in China will flare up again worse than ever. And there is no way they could keep something that huge secret. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 18:41:49 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:41:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >... And there is no way they could keep something that huge secret. I got a brand new lightly used Uighur kidney that begs to differ. On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:36 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If China is lying about the true number of COVID-19 cases they have then > the entire world will very soon learn the truth because they are starting > to open things up again and restart their economy; if things are not as > good as they're claiming they are then the epidemic in China will flare up > again worse than ever. And there is no way they could keep something that > huge secret. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 18:59:34 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:59:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John- You're either willfully ignoring Chinese critical news or not reading it: I wonder where all those missing cell phone users are... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-23/china-s-mobile-carriers-lose-15-million-users-as-virus-bites Some may be in here: https://nypost.com/2020/03/28/shipments-of-urns-in-wuhan-raise-questions-about-chinas-coronavirus-reporting/ As far as containment goes, why are movie theaters closing again: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/china-shuts-down-all-cinemas-again-1287040 Why are there riots in Wuhan over still not being allowed to leave: https://www.the-sun.com/news/602805/coronavirus-riots-erupt-near-wuhan-as-locals-leave-quarantine-only-to-be-told-they-cant-travel-anywhere-else-in-china/ On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 2:35 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If China is lying about the true number of COVID-19 cases they have then > the entire world will very soon learn the truth because they are starting > to open things up again and restart their economy; if things are not as > good as they're claiming they are then the epidemic in China will flare up > again worse than ever. And there is no way they could keep something that > huge secret. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 19:16:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:16:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I regarded all 'news' from authoritarian governments to be propaganda. There is no way to validate anything. There are no independent sources to quote. It's all what they want us to believe. Why are we even questioning this? What is there to discuss? Maybe there is some truth mixed in with the lies, but how could we ever tell? People who blow the whistle get disappeared. bill w On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 2:02 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John- > > You're either willfully ignoring Chinese critical news or not reading it: > > I wonder where all those missing cell phone users are... > > > https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-23/china-s-mobile-carriers-lose-15-million-users-as-virus-bites > > > Some may be in here: > > https://nypost.com/2020/03/28/shipments-of-urns-in-wuhan-raise-questions-about-chinas-coronavirus-reporting/ > > As far as containment goes, why are movie theaters closing again: > > https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/china-shuts-down-all-cinemas-again-1287040 > > > Why are there riots in Wuhan over still not being allowed to leave: > > https://www.the-sun.com/news/602805/coronavirus-riots-erupt-near-wuhan-as-locals-leave-quarantine-only-to-be-told-they-cant-travel-anywhere-else-in-china/ > > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 2:35 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If China is lying about the true number of COVID-19 cases they have then >> the entire world will very soon learn the truth because they are starting >> to open things up again and restart their economy; if things are not as >> good as they're claiming they are then the epidemic in China will flare up >> again worse than ever. And there is no way they could keep something that >> huge secret. >> >> John K Clark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 19:30:03 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:30:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 ecology Message-ID: Maybe someone here or even in media has speculated on this... With over seven billion people around, many of them discussing this pandemic, it?s probably been mentioned but I?ve missed it. Anyhow, I was thinking that the responses to the pandemic, especially physical distancing, must have an impact on the wider ecosystem. After all, humans (and their pets*) transport around microbes and macrobes (think of fleas and mites), and the responses have mostly gone in the direction that would slow down if not stop this living transportation network. I recall years ago reading about ?citizen scientists? swabbing railings in major metro areas to see what kind of bacteria folks were carrying around. I wonder if that sort of thing has been continued and if there are reliable censuses that we can refer to to see if COVID-19 measures have radically changed. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst * I?m used to interacting with cats and dogs on my neighborhood. That?s basically stopped due to physical distancing. In fact, many of my neighbors now keep their cats indoors all day long. This not changes/stops the transport network, but will likely mean less predation by house cats ? another ecosystem impact. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 20:33:27 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 16:33:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:03 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I wonder where all those missing cell phone users are...* Well...it certainly can't be because lots of people in China have lost their jobs due to the epidemic and would prefer to use what little money they still have to buy food rather than pay their cell phone bill; so the only conceivable explanation is that 15 million people in China were killed by the virus. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 20:40:19 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 16:40:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I didn't say all 15 million of them were killed by it, and I'm sure a lot drop off due to migratory workers who maybe switched coverage, but China's society revolves around cell phones for most tasks way more than the US. They're a mobile based society. It's considered an essential. If you want to throw away that data point entirely, fine. Focus on the urns. Do you honestly believe the Chinese numbers on infections and deaths? If the answer is yes, I'm not sure we have anything more to talk about here, but I'm surprised if you're willing to take that on faith, you also haven't converted to Christianity and taken Pascal's wager. On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 4:35 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:03 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I wonder where all those missing cell phone users are...* > > > Well...it certainly can't be because lots of people in China have lost > their jobs due to the epidemic and would prefer to use what little money > they still have to buy food rather than pay their cell phone bill; so the > only conceivable explanation is that 15 million people in China were killed > by the virus. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 20:54:45 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 16:54:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 4:46 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Do you honestly believe the Chinese numbers on infections and deaths?* It doesn't matter what I believe because as Philip K Dick said "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away". China is starting to relax restrictions imposed by the virus and restart things, so very very soon everyone will know for certain if they were lying or not because nature can not be fooled. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 31 21:44:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:44:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now killed more Americans than Chinese In-Reply-To: References: <011c01d6077e$f71599b0$e540cd10$@rainier66.com> <013b01d60782$feda9890$fc8fc9b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ba01d607a5$8e512850$aaf378f0$@rainier66.com> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 4:35 PM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:03 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: >>>? I wonder where all those missing cell phone users are... >>?Well...it certainly can't be because lots of people in China have lost their jobs due to the epidemic and would prefer to use what little money they still have to buy food rather than pay their cell phone bill; so the only conceivable explanation is that 15 million people in China were killed by the virus. John K Clark >?> On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 1:40 PM ? >?Do you honestly believe the Chinese numbers on infections and deaths? If the answer is yes, I'm not sure we have anything more to talk about here, but I'm surprised if you're willing to take that on faith, you also haven't converted to Christianity and taken Pascal's wager? Dylan Astute question Dylan. Note that if the incessant political whining were to ever actually cease, John could face defeat and even disqualification from the regional Incessant Political Complaining competition, for failing to meet the ?Incessant? requirement, explicitly spelled out in the rules. Since his triumphs at the regionals in this sport, he was on his way up to the nationals, and perhaps even to the quadrennial International Incessant Political Complaining Olympics! Disqualification at this stage would be tragic. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 22:39:44 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 15:39:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: snip > Ah, I see. > OK, that's not a problem with stories about uploads per se., it's a problem with stories about anything more intelligent than the author (or the readers). And it only holds true for uploads if you assume they will inevitably be more intelligent (I'm not saying that's not a fair assumption, just pointing it out). There would seem to be little reason to upload if the process didn't make you more intelligent. > The solution is simply to write about uploads that are not more intelligent than you are. That works if you are just interested in writing stories. It doesn't work so well when you are trying to depict a post-singularity world. All I could do in the story I wrote was to hint that the AI/uploads who are assumed to be in control of the world had decided to stabilize the human population. Why? Unknown, sentimental reasons perhaps. snip > Telling stories isn't an exercise in trying to get things right, or predicting the future. In most cases this is true. I, on the other hand, strive for plausibility in the context of the early discussions on this list. > I'd be quite happy to read good stories about uploads that are no more intelligent than I am, and I think it would be a worthwhile effort, because it's a way to familiarise readers with some concepts that they may otherwise find bizarre and uncomfortable (and frightening) when they actually turn up in real life. That's Accelerando. Have you read it? Stross was a regular on this last way back in the dark ages. > That seems to me a very good reason for writing such stories, no matter how unrealistic they might be in terms of the psychology and motivations of real uploads. If you want to frighten people and foster resistance to a new idea, keep it unfamiliar, unknowable and intrinsically different to what they know. I suggest doing the opposite with the idea of uploading. I'd rate the chances of successful acceptance far higher if there was at least a segment of society (beyond geeks like us) who find the idea of uploading exciting, full of possibilities, something to look forward to (even if they think it's all a bit pie-in-the-sky) than if the only exposure to the idea that most people had was from the luddites and bioconservatives, etc. We are a long way from marketing uploads. However, I suspect that it will require being able to try reversible uploading. > I just wish I had some skill as an author, or I'd be doing it myself! This is a bad topic to try to write about. It is hard to work in a story arc. In fact, The Clinic Seed does not have much of a story arc. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 23:15:24 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 16:15:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:42 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There would seem to be little reason to upload if the process didn't > make you more intelligent. > It'd keep you alive, with no age-related biological decay. Then again, how intelligent is a decomposed corpse? Uploading could guard against that type of intelligence loss. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: