From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri May 1 00:08:30 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:08:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: snip > And yet I am quite passionately opposed to lockdowns, lock, stock and barrel. Hmm. You are in the profession that was of most concern for "flattening the curve." i.e., stretching out the pandemic to where the medical establishment would not be overwhelmed. If you assume no vaccine and no treatments then the integrated death total will be the same for a fast or a slow pandemic. A fast one would mean a total collapse of the medical establishment and people dying in the streets. LIke: https://www.thedailybeast.com/coronavirus-chaos-grips-ecuador-as-bodies-rot-in-the-street Vaccine or effective treatment would change the picture. > We the people must be allowed to make the tradeoffs regarding our lives. Does such a world view leave any room for public health? > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up on most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance of dying, depending on your demographic. Given my age and other factors, it is more like 1:10 for me. If you use the expected, 70% infected before herd immunity kicks in, then around 240 million folks in the US will be infected. Using 1% as the case fatality rate, that means about 2.4 million will die. Keith From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 1 03:29:22 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 23:29:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM SR Ballard wrote: > As a note, without government intervention, us ?cowerers? are not allowed > to stay home. Due to government action, I was allowed to stay home without > losing my job. > > AND in the South, we were not legally allowed to wear face masks, because > KKK, before government intervention. > ### Let's not conflate different issues. I am against government-imposed lockdowns, orders forbidding hospitals to admit patients, hairstylists to cut hair and scientists to do science. I strongly *support* reasonable infection control measures including wearing face masks. If there are laws that interfere with such measures, the laws need to be eliminated - but you do not need to order mass house arrests to achieve that. The decision to withdraw from some activities must be made by the individual citizens, organizations and businesses. Only individuals have the particular knowledge needed to make correct trade-offs. If you believe your life is in acute danger at work, you may decide not to go to work (unless you specifically signed up for a dangerous job, like a soldier). Contrary to what you say, staying at home is always an option. You were allowed to stay home even before the lockdowns. As to the ability to keep one's job, lockdowns caused the largest spike in unemployment in the US ever, so no, none of us should count our chickens before they are hatched - all of us could yet lose our jobs to layoffs and bankruptcies if this madness of locked-down crowds continues. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 1 03:45:07 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 23:45:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A fly on the wall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:18 AM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Last month I realized the best solution would be to find a good pair of > socks, > ### I recommend Nike paired socks that come in the right and left variants, just like shoes. They fit much better than ambipedal ones. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 1 04:51:03 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 00:51:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > If you assume no vaccine and no treatments then the integrated death > total will be the same for a fast or a slow pandemic. A fast one > would mean a total collapse of the medical establishment and people > dying in the streets. > ### The concern about overwhelming the medical system was based on erroneous assumptions about IFR. Since the true IFR is at least an order of magnitude lower than the initial estimates there is no need to flatten the curve to protect ICUs from being overwhelmed. The fact that the initial IFR was vastly overestimated became known a long time ago, even prior to the lockdowns in the US, so lockdowns happened because actual science was ignored in the storm of hype and propaganda. However, it is not true that a slow epidemic has the same integral of morbidity and mortality as a fast epidemic. Slowing an epidemic lowers R0 and thus lowers incidence rate (i.e. the fraction of people who eventually get infected, or the integral of morbidity over a period of time). There is no doubt that reducing transmission by lockdowns will reduce overall mortality from the Wuhan virus - however, that is not a sufficient argument to recommend lockdowns. Standard infection control measures, including use of PPE, hand washing, isolation of known cases, tracing of infectious contacts, isolation of most vulnerable persons, and others, are very effective at controlling epidemics and their economic and social costs are literally orders of magnitude lower than lockdowns. Lockdowns are the stupidest solution to an exaggerated problem one can imagine, short of just killing everybody. ----------------------------------- > > Does such a world view leave any room for public health? > ### I am all for public health but not when it's politicized by an insane, partisan media and by an insane elite who would see the country burn if it could help them bring down Trump. Also, looks like our public health authorities have been badly damaged by political correctness and racist hiring practices. > > > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up > on > most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance > of dying, depending on your demographic. > > Given my age and other factors, it is more like 1:10 for me. ### This is not plausible. Are you 85 years old, obese, diabetic with COPD, severe CHF and dependent on oxygen at 2l/min? The true IFR for the very elderly might be on the range of 1 - 2%, which is not low and some level of social isolation is reasonable - wear N95 mask in the grocery store, don't go to indoor meetings with many people, disinfect hands often while shopping, don't touch your face while shopping, don't use mass transit, go for walks on the beach rather than indoor gym, etc. Cowering at home won't bring much added benefit on top of these control measures but it will make you miserable. Unless you are a homebody to begin with. -------------------------------- > If you > use the expected, 70% infected before herd immunity kicks in, then > around 240 million folks in the US will be infected. Using 1% as the > case fatality rate, that means about 2.4 million will die > ### These numbers are way off. IFR is probably about 0.2% and the incidence rate is unlikely to exceed 25%, based on comparisons to influenza, which has similar R0: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3196543/ In another article see figure 2 for relationship between R0 and incidence rate (simplified model, there are other models): https://watermark.silverchair.com/cir007.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAoUwggKBBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggJyMIICbgIBADCCAmcGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMmETOgpSjalg0sghTAgEQgIICOKni3AiWz7aE8YorVrezaQlBWKPAmBwEETxnPRuFbp3_dAQ3ISCbO1ldRTvQWXXfj8F9FyXgIv16jYsc8pc9ZXWiSpk9y8tYry2MljtnNVy1bjOSTkSM_K30vmMDPoeugW5fPiW75ImDDFGE4MFTvR28Wl5xAAyzvNf3wMR6pSJASelS5vde3CEtG-BETvBatb__ipD-3gZvseEwoBns2uXMgVEyVG9NtEPWn3CMPK4yqTubgZfYQtq1pBAFrGCYDlRzW7uvEGU39EhH1UFhoiMpYpBHtKmJqqu3b80eozbt-bhP8wX8EjPVF7Xui_fxXqJUcJZdp0-Y2QTKKB0_omceNNMDKouoaNchDwRaqqqxjJWrVW12jUZUg2c8JqG7Lvkf7HEtBYyVI9mZv9iqER0coEcPvOPhrQSSh4m0-TZJSorpWmzpeq8OPzP1eupDgOPmJsJ6W-_oFyJnP1qABqF6YMrMIyW7AlVw2kcxHDUhmwU0_EypYVytE72xWk-NfOziCSanvV0YtUg2Pf4fMckIFnvdVo7omcgFw_NoJWQHzKvz6OiFh9gdp0j7ghO5KFd3IqY04tJjtDIlJf8dSMzT2MKUHf_i4jVQBXG3EQX9rXgo39xfuCI9W-eNEqwTnQnrAVlA9NsmvXKbHD5KLv05VhfH1WTTvID7U5CXre4eAbJtRQkkA3pN_3WTswMr7ERPqTx_Qsfyb01WgkvD09Pyuyatdtq5-PQVYsMUoatDfkUpf05xjvY Remember, the initial estimates of incidence rate and mortality were based on incorrect assumptions and false information. Chicom interference with data sharing and their suppression of information gave an erroneous estimate of the doubling rate of the infection, the huge number of asymptomatic and unaccounted-for cases threw off IFR estimates and the garbage information was uncritically fed into standard models for predicting incidence rate. GIGO. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 1 06:08:02 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 01:08:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <00c701d6198e$66e7dc50$34b794f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Government intervention was required to allow the wearing of face masks. Government intervention was required to force my workplace to allow (now mandated) the wearing of masks and gloves. I quit working two months ago, as earlier this year I was nearly hospitalized for pneumonia (again, perhaps the fourth time in my life) so I thought ?let?s just not?. The last straw was when I had a man openly cough in my face, full spray, without so much as an apology. And I had my face coughed on earlier that same day. No masks at work were allowed, no gloves. It would ?scare? people. In my local area, people are already going back to work today. I started back to work Wednesday. We were never under house arrest here. We were always fully able to leave our homes and travel around as much as we like, just everything was closed. It?s not the same. I know it was different in other regions, but my region there was no house arrest. It was just ?pretty please?. My boyfriend was ?laid off? and is receiving unemployment, but he has a job waiting for him in two(ish) weeks when it reopens (and it will). Many, many people have jobs to go back to. But rent and debt is another story all together and will have lasting repercussions. And we can always lose our jobs or be laid off in any economic conditions, not just now. Yes, it?s more likely now, but it?s always been possible. And just like always people will fail to plan for it and it will such and people will suffer just like in ?08 all over again. SR Ballard > On Apr 30, 2020, at 10:29 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM SR Ballard wrote: >> As a note, without government intervention, us ?cowerers? are not allowed to stay home. Due to government action, I was allowed to stay home without losing my job. >> >> AND in the South, we were not legally allowed to wear face masks, because KKK, before government intervention. > > ### Let's not conflate different issues. > > I am against government-imposed lockdowns, orders forbidding hospitals to admit patients, hairstylists to cut hair and scientists to do science. > > I strongly *support* reasonable infection control measures including wearing face masks. If there are laws that interfere with such measures, the laws need to be eliminated - but you do not need to order mass house arrests to achieve that. > > The decision to withdraw from some activities must be made by the individual citizens, organizations and businesses. Only individuals have the particular knowledge needed to make correct trade-offs. If you believe your life is in acute danger at work, you may decide not to go to work (unless you specifically signed up for a dangerous job, like a soldier). Contrary to what you say, staying at home is always an option. You were allowed to stay home even before the lockdowns. As to the ability to keep one's job, lockdowns caused the largest spike in unemployment in the US ever, so no, none of us should count our chickens before they are hatched - all of us could yet lose our jobs to layoffs and bankruptcies if this madness of locked-down crowds continues. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 1 07:50:05 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 09:50:05 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Time loops and real quantum possibles: Ruth Kastner Message-ID: Time loops and real quantum possibles: Ruth Kastner Quantum reality transcends space and time, and background nonlocal processes are needed to make sense of observed physical reality... https://turingchurch.net/time-loops-and-real-quantum-possibles-ruth-kastner-46c933e1c9b0 From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 1 07:54:28 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 08:54:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] religious question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/05/2020 07:08, Kunvar Thaman wrote: > My mom is a bit more religious, but she worships by doing some praying > for things like the better health of the family or better education > for us, etc. She addresses no one in particular, just closes her eyes > and says stuff like 'May you have ____' . I can see prayer being a form of organising your thoughts, clarifying to yourself what's important to you, what your goals are, etc., or perhaps meditation of some kind. That would certainly be useful. Personally, I wouldn't call it 'prayer', though. It's interesting to think that some atheists might 'pray' in this sense, as well as some religious people. If someone calls themselves religious, but doesn't actually believe in any gods, just has a vague concept of something like an organising force in the universe, then if they pray, their prayers would be in this same sense. I'd have thought, though, that for the most part, prayer is a part of worship (in the sense I mentioned earlier, abasement and begging for favours). The whole kneeling down and placing your hands in a supplicating gesture thing reinforces that. -- Ben Zaiboc From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 1 08:09:03 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 10:09:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] religious question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do pray, but I never kneel down or place my hand in supplicating gesture. Most often I just look up at the stars. On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:59 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 01/05/2020 07:08, Kunvar Thaman wrote: > > My mom is a bit more religious, but she worships by doing some praying > > for things like the better health of the family or better education > > for us, etc. She addresses no one in particular, just closes her eyes > > and says stuff like 'May you have ____' . > > I can see prayer being a form of organising your thoughts, clarifying to > yourself what's important to you, what your goals are, etc., or perhaps > meditation of some kind. That would certainly be useful. > > Personally, I wouldn't call it 'prayer', though. > It's interesting to think that some atheists might 'pray' in this sense, > as well as some religious people. If someone calls themselves religious, > but doesn't actually believe in any gods, just has a vague concept of > something like an organising force in the universe, then if they pray, > their prayers would be in this same sense. > > I'd have thought, though, that for the most part, prayer is a part of > worship (in the sense I mentioned earlier, abasement and begging for > favours). The whole kneeling down and placing your hands in a > supplicating gesture thing reinforces that. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 1 08:42:32 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 09:42:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Nature (was: Re: religious question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/05/2020 07:08, Kunvar Thaman wrote: > My dad thinks that's there's 'something' at play making everything > around us so complex yet so simple. That something may not be someone. > He's more of a 'some universal power' sort of person. He says that the > more we find out the we know less. There's an inherent beauty to > everything, and my dad calls that 'nature'. He believes that nature is > cleverer than we are, and if there's something disagreeing with the > nature, it's wrong. > Ironically, that 'something' or 'universal power' is Evolution (maybe not ironic for your dad, but certainly for some people). I certainly can sympathise with the feeling that the more we learn, the less we feel we know, but that's just a consequence of the learning revealing that there is more to know. We still know more than we did, but realise that there is more to know than we previously thought. So it's not a reason to stop learning. I'm not sure I understand the rest, though, about nature. Defining 'nature' as an inherent beauty to everything, and saying that there are things that can disagree with it is contradictory. I'm not sure where the fairly widespread idea that 'nature knows best' etc., comes from, but it too is contradictory, given our use of technology, medicine, etc. Even wearing clothes. We constantly do 'unnatural' things, and benefit greatly from it. In fact, we'd be long-extinct (or at least never have become what we are now) if not for our propensity to do 'unnatural' things. I don't understand how the idea persists, either, given the glaring bodges that nature has produced, not to mention the extreme cruelty that's inextricably embedded in it. I guess your dad would consider me very wrong, because I see nature as our implacable enemy, to be constantly striven against. Nature (especially biology, and evolution in particular) is like an abusive parent, in my view. We wouldn't be here without it, but it has done us grevious wrong, and our highest priority should be to get away from it as soon as possible. Except we can't. So our only choice is to master it. The way to do that is to learn as much about it as we can, and with that knowledge, build tools to overcome it. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 1 10:46:02 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 06:46:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: References: <17A5C072-8C03-4D4C-9E31-EA67E53E67C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 6:36 PM Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> This can't be really a law. It's only improbable* > Like the Second Law Of Thermodynamics? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Fri May 1 12:38:39 2020 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 14:38:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Complexity and Evolution (was extropy-chat Digest) In-Reply-To: References: <17A5C072-8C03-4D4C-9E31-EA67E53E67C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Like the Second Law Of Thermodynamics? More like the "law", that the lightning never strikes twice in the same place. On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 12:48 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 6:36 PM Tomaz Kristan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> This can't be really a law. It's only improbable* >> > > Like the Second Law Of Thermodynamics? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 1 13:25:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 09:25:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Nature (was: Re: religious question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 4:45 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I see nature as our implacable enemy, to be constantly striven against.* I agree, nature is trying to kill me. *> Nature (especially biology, and evolution in particular) is like an > abusive parent, in my view. * Yes. If a omnipotent God exists but He chose Evolution as the way to produce complex things like me and you then He can not be benevolent. So the Bible Thumpers are right, Christianity and Darwin are not compatible. > *> our only choice is to master it. The way to do that is to learn as much > about it as we can, and with**that knowledge, build tools to overcome it.* Martin Mull summed up my philosophy in 1978, he made it clear that he didn't want to sit at God's right hand, he didn't even want to be God's son, he wanted to be God. Start 4 min 20 sec in: I WANT TO BE GOD John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 1 15:02:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 10:02:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Atheism again In-Reply-To: References: <1c5026e5-b7b5-9237-674b-0f431eef605c@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: ### I used this term in a clumsy way, more or less trying to say that a Bayesian mind ascribes P values from the interval between 0 and 1 to all beliefs, a completely non-Bayesian mind uses 1 or 0 for all beliefs, and then there are all those minds in between. That was an imprecise expression but I hope it gets the meaning across. Rafal *OK, I get that. But I cannot conceive of a mind that would either be completely certain about the existence of something or completely certain about the nonexistence of something. For one thing, fine but for everything? The Kruger Dunning effect insures that there will be people whose estimates of probability will be way off about their ability or knowledge, or perhaps just a tad off, like most people. The latter, I think, would be very common.* *bill w* On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 12:05 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:03 PM William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> If I may ask: would you summarize just what a Bayesian and a nonBayesian >> mind is? The formula and how it is used I know. >> > > ### I used this term in a clumsy way, more or less trying to say that a > Bayesian mind ascribes P values from the interval between 0 and 1 to all > beliefs, a completely non-Bayesian mind uses 1 or 0 for all beliefs, and > then there are all those minds in between. That was an imprecise expression > but I hope it gets the meaning across. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 1 15:50:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 08:50:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] why belgium? Message-ID: <012201d61fd0$33d89960$9b89cc20$@rainier66.com> If we want to interpret Covid-19 cases and mortality as a function of government action or inaction, this site is helpful: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality Why Belgium? They appear to be doing something really super-wrong. The ten populous countries which appear to be the worst in case/fatality ratio are Belgium, UK, France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain Brazil, Iran, USA, Germany. If we look at it in terms of deaths by Covid per capita, the bad guys are Belgium, Spain, Italy, UK, France, Netherlands, USA, Germany, Iran, Brazil. Very puzzling. All of those hard-hit countries have a lot of international travel and a high GDP per capita, which enables a lot of travel, with the possible exception of Iran (I can?t explain that one very easily.) Now there is another confounding factor. If we look at the USA, half the Covid-19 deaths are confined to a geographical area centered at Times Square in New York with a radius of about 50km. About half of that is ocean, but let?s ignore that for the moment and say ok, about 7500 square km, or round up to about 10,000 square km in the USA contains half the C19 mortality. The land area in the USA is about 10million square km, so half of the C-19 deaths are in less than 0.1 percent of the land area, about half of which is ocean. I do not know what to tell those beleaguered unfortunates who live in that less than 0.1 percent of land area, about half of which is ocean, but my first advice is stay the hell away from all mass transit, especially the subways, because those go in tunnels as opposed to the open air. I don?t know how it goes in these other countries in the top 10 worst-hit nations, but I vaguely suspect they too have small areas which concentrate a lot of cases. Have we any Belgians among us? Or Europe hipsters who might know? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 1 22:23:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 17:23:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] wacky definition of the day Message-ID: We call our shoes footwear. However, that should be: antifootwear bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat May 2 01:20:39 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 18:20:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If you assume no vaccine and no treatments then the integrated death > total will be the same for a fast or a slow pandemic. A fast one > would mean a total collapse of the medical establishment and people > dying in the streets. ### The concern about overwhelming the medical system was based on erroneous assumptions about IFR. I think this reports an overwhelmed medical system. What do you think? https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/20/838746457/covid-19-numbers-are-bad-in-ecuador-the-president-says-the-real-story-is-even-wo > Since the true IFR is at least an order of magnitude lower than the initial estimates there is no need to flatten the curve to protect ICUs from being overwhelmed. The fact that the initial IFR was vastly overestimated became known a long time ago, even prior to the lockdowns in the US, so lockdowns happened because actual science was ignored in the storm of hype and propaganda. "New report says coronavirus pandemic could last for two years ? and may not subside until 70% of the population has immunity" > However, it is not true that a slow epidemic has the same integral of morbidity and mortality as a fast epidemic. Slowing an epidemic lowers R0 and thus lowers incidence rate (i.e. the fraction of people who eventually get infected, or the integral of morbidity over a period of time). That may or may not be true. If it really takes a 70% rate of immune people, and the case fatality rate stays constant, the only difference between a fast and a slow pandemic is how many people medical assistance can save. So far that does not seem like a lot, but I expect (or at least hope) the medical profession will get better at treating this virus over time. At this point, the effects of the virus are not well understood. For example, venious blool of COVID cases is close to black. Why? On the other hand, a medical profession preoccupied with COVID-19 for two years may let a lot of people die who could otherwise be saved. It would take running a model, but under some circumstances (no vaccine, no treatments), it might be that doing nothing and letting the virus run a fast course would cost less in total casualties. Equador is providing an example. > There is no doubt that reducing transmission by lockdowns will reduce overall mortality from the Wuhan virus - however, that is not a sufficient argument to recommend lockdowns. Standard infection control measures, including use of PPE, hand washing, isolation of known cases, tracing of infectious contacts, If the facts had been understood and acted upon back in January, perhaps, but this ship has long since sailed. There isn't enough PPE for example. I am using and recycling a surgical mask I had from Alcor 25 years ago when I used toi put cryonics patients on cardiac bypass. > isolation of most vulnerable persons, and others, are very effective at controlling epidemics and their economic and social costs are literally orders of magnitude lower than lockdowns. Lockdowns are the stupidest solution to an exaggerated problem one can imagine, short of just killing everybody. ----------------------------------- > Does such a world view leave any room for public health? > ### I am all for public health but not when it's politicized by an insane, partisan media and by an insane elite who would see the country burn if it could help them bring down Trump. Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do such people support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not hard to explain. I have done it several time on this list. > Also, looks like our public health authorities have been badly damaged by political correctness and racist hiring practices. That's a new one on me. Got a URL for it? ( > > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up > on > most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance > of dying, depending on your demographic. > > Given my age and other factors, it is more like 1:10 for me. ### This is not plausible. Are you 85 years old, obese, diabetic with COPD, severe CHF and dependent on oxygen at 2l/min? It's pubkc knowledge that I am almost 78. If you want me to talk about medical conditions, perhaps off list would be a good idea. However, yesterday I got an injection into one eye. Those who get tthis old usually have a long list of problems. snip > If you > use the expected, 70% infected before herd immunity kicks in, then > around 240 million folks in the US will be infected. Using 1% as the > case fatality rate, that means about 2.4 million will die ### These numbers are way off. IFR is probably about 0.2% and the incidence rate is unlikely to exceed 25%, based on comparisons to influenza, which has similar R0: You might be right on both these numbers. Using your numbers, about 82 million in the US will be infected and 165,000 will die. The US is at around a million cases and 6,000 deaths. That would put the US about 1/3rd though the pandemic by deaths. As the states open up, I expect another wave to hit, perhaps even worse than the first one since there are a vast number of infected cases out there to start infection chains. >From anitbody testing, we might be at around ~3% of the population has already had it (ten million). That would put the US about one part in 8 through the pandemic using your number of ~82 million to be infected. If that's in the ballpark, then the number of deaths in the US to the end of the pandemic will be around 6,000 times 8 or 48,000, which is 50 times less than my off the cuff worse case estimation of 2.4 million. It's still a lot of deaths, but given that it is mostly old people (like me) who are not very productive, it may not hurt the economy too much. Long URL failed to connect. > Remember, the initial estimates of incidence rate and mortality were based on incorrect assumptions and false information. Chicom interference with data sharing and their suppression of information gave an erroneous estimate of the doubling rate of the infection, the huge number of asymptomatic and unaccounted-for cases threw off IFR estimates and the garbage information was uncritically fed into standard models for predicting incidence rate. Don't we have better data from Italy, Spain and Germany now? Keith From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 2 02:31:29 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 22:31:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains Message-ID: It occurred to me today that Wolfram's hypergraph theory offers a solution to the paradox of Boltzmann brains. Boltzmann brains show up when you contemplate sufficiently large numbers of fluctuating physical entities (atoms, molecules), where any physically possible arrangement of molecules eventually happens by some random aggregation of molecules. The theorists assume that the likelihood of a particular arrangement of smaller entities coming "randomly" into existence is a more or less simple function of the number of entities needed to form that arrangement. Since it takes a lot fewer atoms to make a brain than needed to make a galaxy, brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe by some hundreds of orders of magnitude. Therefore, you should expect your existence to end just about now, since you are more likely to be a Boltzmann brain than a brain in a body on a planet. Since none of the Boltzmann brains survive to tell us about their experiences, our life is not affected and the whole notion is not excluded by available physical evidence. The above assumes that the "random fluctuations" uniformly sample the configuration space of molecular assemblies, without providing any clear physical interpretation of how such a random process could work. It seems to assume an idea of true randomness that given a bunch of swirling physical thingies literally anything can happen if you wait long enough. You notice how I use very non-sciency sounding words to refer to this idea, which I find rather suspect. Wolfram's hypergraph theory is deterministic and finite.The laws of his universes are simple rules repeatedly applied to simple mathematical parent structures that generate completely predictable progeny structures, without any place for randomness. The structures so created are however computationally irreducible - the only way of finding out which structures will be created by the process is to run the process, there are no exact and general shortcuts. It follows that if our universe is created by one of these deterministic and finite processes, then there is a structure to the seemingly random movements of molecules we see. The law of our universe does not uniformly sample the configuration space of molecular assemblies. The law imposes a precise structure on all that happens, and most stuff we can vaguely imagine cannot happen. There is no physical shortcut that leads from a handful of atoms to a Boltzmann brain, you actually have to go through making quarks, then atoms, then galaxies, then planets... etc. The initial state of the graph and the rule applying to it, the moment zero of all time, is the ultimate conceivable high-energy and low-entropy physical state and at the same time a pure mathematical entity. It implies all the theorems true of that entity but not any other theorems. Of course, since we don't know our universe's rule we cannot begin to calculate if there are Boltzmann brains out there, and even if we knew the rule we would not be able to run the rule's calculation precisely enough to get an answer. So we still cannot exclude the possibility of Boltzmann brains - but we can say that if Wolfram is right, then they are not necessarily implied by the physics of our universe, and may very well be forbidden. If we find a good candidate for the rule of our universe, the final TOE, among Wolfram's hypergraphs, we might eventually be able to perform approximate first-principle calculations of vacuum energy, the cosmological constant, find a solution to the vacuum catastrophe and calculate the density of Boltzmann brains in space. My guess is Boltzmann brains are very few and far between, compared to us normal folks. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 2 12:45:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 08:45:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do > suchpeople support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not > hardto explain. I have done it several time on this list.* That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the USA 199 die. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat May 2 20:30:46 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 13:30:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, math error fixed below. Keith On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 6:20 PM Keith Henson wrote: > > Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > If you assume no vaccine and no treatments then the integrated death > > total will be the same for a fast or a slow pandemic. A fast one > > would mean a total collapse of the medical establishment and people > > dying in the streets. > > ### The concern about overwhelming the medical system was based on > erroneous assumptions about IFR. > > I think this reports an overwhelmed medical system. What do you think? > > https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/20/838746457/covid-19-numbers-are-bad-in-ecuador-the-president-says-the-real-story-is-even-wo > > > Since the true IFR is at least an order of > magnitude lower than the initial estimates there is no need to flatten the > curve to protect ICUs from being overwhelmed. The fact that the initial IFR > was vastly overestimated became known a long time ago, even prior to the > lockdowns in the US, so lockdowns happened because actual science was > ignored in the storm of hype and propaganda. > > "New report says coronavirus pandemic could last for two years ? and > may not subside until 70% of the population has immunity" > > > However, it is not true that a slow epidemic has the same integral of > morbidity and mortality as a fast epidemic. Slowing an epidemic lowers R0 > and thus lowers incidence rate (i.e. the fraction of people who eventually > get infected, or the integral of morbidity over a period of time). > > That may or may not be true. If it really takes a 70% rate of immune > people, and the case fatality rate stays constant, the only difference > between a fast and a slow pandemic is how many people medical > assistance can save. So far that does not seem like a lot, but I > expect (or at least hope) the medical profession will get better at > treating this virus over time. At this point, the effects of the > virus are not well understood. For example, venious blool of COVID > cases is close to black. Why? > > On the other hand, a medical profession preoccupied with COVID-19 for > two years may let a lot of people die who could otherwise be saved. > It would take running a model, but under some circumstances (no > vaccine, no treatments), it might be that doing nothing and letting > the virus run a fast course would cost less in total casualties. > Equador is providing an example. > > > There is > no doubt that reducing transmission by lockdowns will reduce overall > mortality from the Wuhan virus - however, that is not a sufficient argument > to recommend lockdowns. Standard infection control measures, including use > of PPE, hand washing, isolation of known cases, tracing of infectious > contacts, > > If the facts had been understood and acted upon back in January, > perhaps, but this ship has long since sailed. There isn't enough PPE > for example. I am using and recycling a surgical mask I had from > Alcor 25 years ago when I used to put cryonics patients on cardiac > bypass. > > > isolation of most vulnerable persons, and others, are very > effective at controlling epidemics and their economic and social costs are > literally orders of magnitude lower than lockdowns. > > Lockdowns are the stupidest solution to an exaggerated problem one can > imagine, short of just killing everybody. > > ----------------------------------- > > Does such a world view leave any room for public health? > > > ### I am all for public health but not when it's politicized by an insane, > partisan media and by an insane elite who would see the country burn if it > could help them bring down Trump. > > Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do such > people support him? It's rooted in our evolutionary past and not hard > to explain. I have done it several times on this list. > > > Also, looks like our public health authorities have been badly damaged by > political correctness and racist hiring practices. > > That's a new one on me. Got a URL for it? ( > > > > If you buy into the virus doom hype, by all means cower at home. Give up > > on > > most of your life in the hope of avoiding a 1:1000 to 1:100,000,000 chance > > of dying, depending on your demographic. > > > > Given my age and other factors, it is more like 1:10 for me. > > ### This is not plausible. Are you 85 years old, obese, diabetic with COPD, > severe CHF and dependent on oxygen at 2l/min? > > It's pubic knowledge that I am almost 78. If you want me to talk > about medical conditions, perhaps off list would be a good idea. > However, yesterday I got an injection into one eye. Those who get > this old usually have a long list of problems. > > snip > > > If you > > use the expected, 70% infected before herd immunity kicks in, then > > around 240 million folks in the US will be infected. Using 1% as the > > case fatality rate, that means about 2.4 million will die > > ### These numbers are way off. IFR is probably about 0.2% and the incidence > rate is unlikely to exceed 25%, based on comparisons to influenza, which > has similar R0: > > You might be right on both these numbers. Using your numbers, about > 82 million in the US will be infected and 165,000 will die. The US is > at around a million cases and 6,000 deaths. That would put the US 60,000 deaths. > about 1/3rd though the pandemic by deaths. As the states open up, I > expect another wave to hit, perhaps even worse than the first one > since there are a vast number of infected cases out there to start > infection chains. > > From anitibody testing, we might be at around ~3% of the population has > already had it (ten million). That would put the US about one part in > 8 through the pandemic using your number of ~82 million to be > infected. If that's in the ballpark, then the number of deaths in the > US to the end of the pandemic will be around 6,000 times 8 or 48,000, 60,000 x 8 or 480,000 > which is 50 times less than my off the cuff worse case estimation of 5 times less Rough as the numbers are, a factor of 5 puts us close. > 2.4 million. It's still a lot of deaths, but given that it is mostly > old people (like me) who are not very productive, it may not hurt the > economy too much. > > Long URL failed to connect. > > > Remember, the initial estimates of incidence rate and mortality were based > on incorrect assumptions and false information. Chicom interference with > data sharing and their suppression of information gave an erroneous > estimate of the doubling rate of the infection, the huge number of > asymptomatic and unaccounted-for cases threw off IFR estimates and the > garbage information was uncritically fed into standard models for > predicting incidence rate. > > Don't we have better data from Italy, Spain and Germany now? > > Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 2 21:51:48 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 17:51:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you can see this without going through the paywall: Try to reach Herd Immunity without a vaccine, and millions will die But this is a brand new virus so the truth is nobody knows for certain what would happen, it would be a very scary crapshoot with astronomically high stakes. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 2 22:41:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 17:41:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] word of the day Message-ID: This word describe the Socratic process of asking leading questions and getting the other person to form his own answers without any help except from the questions. maieutic - literally referring to the birth process; Socrates playing the role of a midwife. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat May 2 23:40:02 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 16:40:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] why belgium? Message-ID: wrote: > If we want to interpret Covid-19 cases and mortality as a function of government action or inaction, this site is helpful: Spike, this is like trying to analyze the final order of the baseball teams at the start of the season. There are very likely going to be several more waves of this virus. It's is worth remembering that the second influenza wave in 1918 was worse than the first. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 3 00:03:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 17:03:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] why belgium? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008901d620de$4a33ddf0$de9b99d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] why belgium? wrote: > If we want to interpret Covid-19 cases and mortality as a function of government action or inaction, this site is helpful: Spike, this is like trying to analyze the final order of the baseball teams at the start of the season. There are very likely going to be several more waves of this virus. It's is worth remembering that the second influenza wave in 1918 was worse than the first. Keith _______________________________________________ Keith that's only one of the problems. We are comparing data that is inherently difficult to compare and getting more so. Different countries are reporting their C-19 cases and deaths differently. The US, Belgium and a few other places are including unknown but likely C-19 cases. Some are counting as a C-19 death anyone who tests positive regardless of what else might have actually killed them. Then within a country, we have states reporting differently. We have hospitals with a clear motive to over-report, because it makes them eligible for state funding if the patient was C-19 positive. Clearly that is going to have a big impact on the numbers. I hafta think that is part of the reason why half the US Covid deaths are within an hour's drive of Times Square (assuming deserted roads.) We have governors who are individually motivated to over-report, to justify keeping their state closed, and others who are motivated to under-report to justify opening their states. We Californians are about to see some interesting fireworks: the case load is low enough to go ahead and open shops again. Some shops are opening anyway, declaring themselves essential services (their paychecks are essential (so the local cops aren't stopping them (and the state troopers are not showing up.))) This is a nice warm Saturday. I haven't heard but I am guessing the locals are having a showdown with law enforcement on the beaches down your way. Up here, they have the option of closing the access roads. Down your way they don't. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun May 3 03:39:52 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 20:39:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: John Clark wrote: On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do > such people support him? It's rooted in our evolutionary past and not > hard to explain. I have done it several times on this list.* > That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. Agreed, he was a few million votes short of a majority. But under the system we seem to be stuck with, a majority is not required, just, as you say, a majority of the Electoral College. The same thing happened with the Busin/Gore election. > The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. Again, you hit the nail on the head. The question though is why enough people voted for him in the "red" states for him to get a majority in the Electoral College? What is special about those states? > Meanwhile, the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. May I remind you that the German people have not always been so sensible? Or perhaps a better word would be lucky. Close to 100 years ago the German government was taken over by a madman. That madman got considerably less than a majority vote and still took over. Think about it, what is in common between the red states in 2016 and Germany in 1920? For that matter, how does present-day Germany differ from 1920 Germany? If you want to go deeper, think about the selection that went on back in the stone age. We are stuck with the Electoral College. We are even more stuck with human psychological traits selected in the stone age. We could, in theory, get rid of the Electoral College. It would be much harder to modify human psychological traits, but there does seem to be ways to keep the worse aspects turned off. Keith From rocket at earthlight.com Sun May 3 11:23:44 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 07:23:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains Message-ID: Hi Rafal, This is fascinating, I had to go look up "Boltzman brains". Wikipedia has everything. The idea reminds me of the "zillions-of-monkeys-typing-will-write everything-ever-written-or-that-will-be-written" thought experiment. I think the hypothesis that a biological brain complete with all memories is more likely to form spontaneously than a galaxy is fun to contemplate -- but isn't quite right. We know that generally, conditions in most locations of the galaxy are not conducive to stable biological existance. Also, a brain is a subsystem of a biogical system, the bit that houses our idenity, but still just a piece of a whole system, and dependant on the rest.* The molecules composing a brain are biological in nature and are formed under specific conditions, so the formation of these molecules in a given random location is entropically unlikely. Then, even with the molecules available, I think the spontaneous emergence of even a single neuron is still unlikey as its structure is so highy organized. Like the monkeys typing, if you have all the letters to make a word, and then form groups of the words follwoing some syntax, - all formed randomy and spontaneously - you could have brillions (with a "br"! Thats a lot of them...) of versions with syntax and words and even grammer but **still having no meaning**! I have never seen evidence of the spontaneous formation in the galaxy of even biological-like molecules (like an ATPase or something), much less functional ones. Even after you possibly get a neuron popping up someplace, it would need to be near trillions of others, or just milllions, if you are talking about the spontaneous formation of a Boltzman honeybee brain, for example. They must form an isolated organ with functional regions, like mushroom bodies and optic lobes and stuff. And now you have to start thinking about the inter-neuronal wiring and interconnections. Each neuron in a working brain has about 100-10,000 connections, they ALL have to be right to have a system that is holding information (ie, memories). All together, this is overall such a hugely low probalistic occurance that is fun to think about but seems rather unlikely, at least to me. IMHO, I think this is why biology is so different from physics - it is biological processes that drive the organization of molecules into such ordered structures, and these processes follow the harsh and nasty laws of evolution, increasing the overall infomation held in such colllections of interdependant molecules, far beyond what could be held or acted upon via simple physically probable interactions that randomly occur in the universe. Physics is blind except to elementary forces, and the statistics of large numbers, while biology drives the accretion of information by communicating with and learning from its envirionment. Regina * IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it. Thus, I have issues with uploading. Different topic! Anyhow, a Boltzman brain complete with memories but no body seems very anamolous to me, and unlikely to have even transient consciouness. YMMV. -R -------------------------------------------- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 22:31:29 -0400 From: Rafal Smigrodzki To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" It occurred to me today that Wolfram's hypergraph theory offers a solution to the paradox of Boltzmann brains. Boltzmann brains show up when you contemplate sufficiently large numbers of fluctuating physical entities (atoms, molecules), where any physically possible arrangement of molecules eventually happens by some random aggregation of molecules. The theorists assume that the likelihood of a particular arrangement of smaller entities coming "randomly" into existence is a more or less simple function of the number of entities needed to form that arrangement. Since it takes a lot fewer atoms to make a brain than needed to make a galaxy, brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe by some hundreds of orders of magnitude. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Sun May 3 11:23:54 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 07:23:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Subject: Boltzmann brains Message-ID: To clarify my comment below, I didn't mean the proto-biolgical building blocks that have been observed, such as R,S-glycine, R,S-alanine, adenine, ribose, and their friends; or the simple protenoids and polypeptides - those building blocks of biology can and do spontaneouly form. I meant higher-order biologial molecles like, I dunno, hydrolases, or NADPH synthases, biologcally active structures like that. -R ------------ I have never seen evidence of the spontaneous formation in the galaxy of even biological-like molecules (like an ATPase or something), much less functional ones. ------------ -------------------------------------------- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 22:31:29 -0400 From: Rafal Smigrodzki To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" It occurred to me today that Wolfram's hypergraph theory offers a solution to the paradox of Boltzmann brains. Boltzmann brains show up when you contemplate sufficiently large numbers of fluctuating physical entities (atoms, molecules), where any physically possible arrangement of molecules eventually happens by some random aggregation of molecules. The theorists assume that the likelihood of a particular arrangement of smaller entities coming "randomly" into existence is a more or less simple function of the number of entities needed to form that arrangement. Since it takes a lot fewer atoms to make a brain than needed to make a galaxy, brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe by some hundreds of orders of magnitude. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 3 12:10:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 08:10:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 11:43 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald >> Trump, not before the election during it or after it. > > *> Agreed, he was a few million votes short of a majority. * Not only did Trump fail to get a majority of the votes he didn't even get a plurality of the votes. *> The same thing happened with the Busin/Gore election.* And so in addition to Trump we can also thank the electoral college for the Iraq War. How do all those other poor benighted democratic countries in the world manage to get along without something like our wonderful electoral college? > >> The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be >> the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American >> people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are >> allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 >> of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who >> was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American >> people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where >> to place Clorox to cure viral disease. > > > * > Again, you hit the nail on the head. The question though is why > enough people voted for him in the "red" states for him to get a majority > in the Electoral College? What is special about those states?* > I can see a few patterns, with the exception of Virginia all the former Confederate slave states went for Trump, and the more rural a state is and the smaller its population the more likely the few people in it would vote for Trump, and the voters in those states are far more important than the voters in larger states. But other than that I can't think of any stone age traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and another was red. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 3 13:12:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 09:12:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 7:27 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> The molecules composing a brain are biological in nature and are formed > under specific conditions, so the formation of these molecules in a given > random location is entropically unlikely. * > It makes no difference how astronomically unlikely something is, as long as the probability is not exactly precisely zero if you have infinity and eternity to work with then not only will it happen it will happen an infinite number of times. *> * IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it.* > So anybody who has received a titanium knee replacement is dead because they no longer have their original kneecap? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun May 3 14:27:51 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 07:27:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Subject: Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This seems to be an unfalsifiable hypothesis. The theory is that everything you remember, all data and history and evidence, is a lie forged by the random coincidence that caused your brain to exist in this moment. This is a form of the old, "am I really experiencing what I seem to be experiencing, or is it an illusion of some sort" chain of thought. While it is true that the only thing you can prove is that you exist - because you are thinking about the problem, which means there has to be some thing that is doing that thinking, and the thing that is thinking your thoughts and having your experiences is you by definition - Occam's Razor suggests that it is far more likely that the universe as we experience it is in fact what's going on. This further suggests that mathematical convolutions that suggest something else have an error in their logic or their data. In this case, "brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe" seems to be the error. Specifically, ignoring the different time scales needed for construction (and its effects on the likelihood of random assembly) between extremely short-lived entities that would need near-instant formation - brains forming and almost immediately expiring - versus extremely long lived entities that can take much longer to assemble - galaxies. On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:34 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > To clarify my comment below, I didn't mean the proto-biolgical building > blocks that have been observed, such as R,S-glycine, R,S-alanine, adenine, > ribose, and their friends; or the simple protenoids and polypeptides - > those building blocks of biology can and do spontaneouly form. I meant > higher-order biologial molecles like, I dunno, hydrolases, or NADPH > synthases, biologcally active structures like that. > > -R > > ------------ > I have never seen evidence of the spontaneous formation in the galaxy of > even biological-like molecules (like an ATPase or something), much less > functional ones. > > ------------ > > -------------------------------------------- > Message: 12 > Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 22:31:29 -0400 > From: Rafal Smigrodzki > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains > Message-ID: > HgjjLyA at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > It occurred to me today that Wolfram's hypergraph theory offers a solution > to the paradox of Boltzmann brains. > > Boltzmann brains show up when you contemplate sufficiently large numbers > of fluctuating physical entities (atoms, molecules), where any physically possible > arrangement of molecules eventually happens by some random aggregation of > molecules. > > The theorists assume that the likelihood of a particular arrangement of > smaller entities coming "randomly" into existence is a more or less > simple function of the number of entities needed to form that > arrangement. > > Since it takes a lot fewer atoms to make a brain than needed to make a > galaxy, brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately > expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly > forming in that universe by some hundreds of orders of magnitude. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun May 3 14:30:43 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 07:30:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 6:15 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It makes no difference how astronomically unlikely something is, as long > as the probability is not exactly precisely zero if you have infinity and > eternity to work with then not only will it happen it will happen an > infinite number of times. > But we have not had infinity to work with. By all current measurements, the universe has had a finite life so far. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 3 15:28:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 11:28:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 10:39 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> It makes no difference how astronomically unlikely something is, as long >> as the probability is not exactly precisely zero if you have infinity and >> eternity to work with then not only will it happen it will happen an >> infinite number of times. >> > > *> But we have not had infinity to work with. * > We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is right, and if the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal Inflation probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the universe is finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite eternal future. *> By all current measurements, the universe has had a finite life so far.* Physicists have never detected an infinite number of anything, but then I don't see how they could. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun May 3 18:41:33 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 04:41:33 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 01:31, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 10:39 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> It makes no difference how astronomically unlikely something is, as >>> long as the probability is not exactly precisely zero if you have infinity >>> and eternity to work with then not only will it happen it will happen an >>> infinite number of times. >>> >> >> *> But we have not had infinity to work with. * >> > > We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds interpretation > of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is right, and if > the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal Inflation > probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the universe is > finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite eternal future. > Or it could be infinite in extent. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun May 3 21:08:07 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 14:08:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: John Clark wrote: snip > But other than that I can't think of any stone age traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and another was red. Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to find an irrational leader attractive. You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age psychological traits to the present day, though one example. http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. I would also say that it is clear from history that people under stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? Keith From ben at zaiboc.net Sun May 3 21:20:08 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 22:20:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> On 03/05/2020 19:42, Re Rose wrote: > IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all > of it. Thus, I have issues with uploading The one doesn't follow from the other, even if it is true (which I don't think, but that's a separate argument). People tend to think of uploading as just meaning an emulation of a brain. In practice, an upload will need an emulation of a body too, so it would be better to think of it as emulating the entire organism (and, of course, an external environment, too). Because emulating an external environment is trivial (we can do that already), it doesn't tend to get mentioned much. Because a body is much simpler than a brain, that too can be easily emulated - more easily than a brain, anyway - so that doesn't tend to get mentioned much, either. We focus on brains because that's where the essential action is. No brain, no person. But don't forget that's not the only thing we'll want to emulate in an upload. So, accepting that we'll want to emulate a body as well as a brain, do we actually need a real body to record and upload? I doubt it. It follows from the fact that a body is simpler, that we will be able to easily create a virtual body from existing data about human bodies, so no need to preserve an actual body unless you don't want to be uploaded at all, but have your biological self reanimated at some point, and even then... Yet another separate argument :) . I can only think of one possible case where you'd want to upload (and thus preserve in the first place) an individual body, and that's the (extremely unlikely, imo) case where your unique body is essential to reproducing your unique mind. We undergo all sorts of changes to our bodies, all the time, and it doesn't seem to have much effect on who we are. I can testify to that, having had various bits of my body changed and even removed, over my lifetime. On the other hand, change or damage or remove even a tiny bit of your brain, and you have a different person, or at least a different personality. Ergo, the brain is vastly more important than the body to get exactly right (and thus, to preserve). I'm pretty confident that a generic body model would be quite sufficient for the purposes of an upload, especially as you could modify it yourself afterward, to your own requirements (just in case you decided that your appendectomy scar or missing toe was somehow essential to your personality). And even so, it would be easy enough to record any differences to 'the standard human body (female)' that you in particular might have, keep the data with your neuro corpsicle, and feed them into the upload data, instead of going to the extra expense and trouble of vitrifying (or chemopreserving) an entire body. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun May 3 21:25:51 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 15:25:51 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal betters will win their hearts and minds! Also, they should obviously learn to code, On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 3:10 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John Clark wrote: > > snip > > > But other than that I can't think of any stone age > traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and > another was red. > > Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population > that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not > bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. > For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those > populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. > > People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) > would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was > irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions > called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to > find an irrational leader attractive. > > You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age > psychological traits to the present day, though one example. > http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. > > I would also say that it is clear from history that people under > stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms > that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include > spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. > > Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you > as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun May 3 21:35:00 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 17:35:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1. Someone gets it. On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:27 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get > onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal > betters will win their hearts and minds! > > Also, they should obviously learn to code, > > On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 3:10 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> John Clark wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > But other than that I can't think of any stone age >> traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and >> another was red. >> >> Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population >> that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not >> bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. >> For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those >> populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. >> >> People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) >> would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was >> irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions >> called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to >> find an irrational leader attractive. >> >> You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age >> psychological traits to the present day, though one example. >> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. >> >> I would also say that it is clear from history that people under >> stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms >> that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include >> spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. >> >> Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you >> as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? >> >> Keith >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 3 21:43:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 14:43:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? >?Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal betters will win their hearts and minds! The persistent shrieking of bitter contumely as a campaign strategy has been demonstrated repeatedly on this forum (plenty of us have come to suspect it is all an elaborate false-flag attack (designed to promote the fortunes of the current POTUS (whose name escapes me at the moment.))) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 3 21:53:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 16:53:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I know nothing about this, so I am free to put in my two cents worth: Is the idea just to shut down the hypothalamus? It reads the blood for hormones, among other things. Do you imagine that sims of the various endocrine glands will be done? Not everything about the brain is neuronal, of course. What you think and what you think about is partly dependent on the hormones. bill w On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:22 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 03/05/2020 19:42, Re Rose wrote: > > IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it. > Thus, I have issues with uploading > > > The one doesn't follow from the other, even if it is true (which I don't > think, but that's a separate argument). > > People tend to think of uploading as just meaning an emulation of a brain. > In practice, an upload will need an emulation of a body too, so it would be > better to think of it as emulating the entire organism (and, of course, an > external environment, too). > > Because emulating an external environment is trivial (we can do that > already), it doesn't tend to get mentioned much. Because a body is much > simpler than a brain, that too can be easily emulated - more easily than a > brain, anyway - so that doesn't tend to get mentioned much, either. We > focus on brains because that's where the essential action is. No brain, no > person. But don't forget that's not the only thing we'll want to emulate in > an upload. > > So, accepting that we'll want to emulate a body as well as a brain, do we > actually need a real body to record and upload? I doubt it. It follows from > the fact that a body is simpler, that we will be able to easily create a > virtual body from existing data about human bodies, so no need to preserve > an actual body unless you don't want to be uploaded at all, but have your > biological self reanimated at some point, and even then... Yet another > separate argument :) . > > I can only think of one possible case where you'd want to upload (and thus > preserve in the first place) an individual body, and that's the (extremely > unlikely, imo) case where your unique body is essential to reproducing your > unique mind. > > We undergo all sorts of changes to our bodies, all the time, and it > doesn't seem to have much effect on who we are. I can testify to that, > having had various bits of my body changed and even removed, over my > lifetime. On the other hand, change or damage or remove even a tiny bit of > your brain, and you have a different person, or at least a different > personality. Ergo, the brain is vastly more important than the body to get > exactly right (and thus, to preserve). > > I'm pretty confident that a generic body model would be quite sufficient > for the purposes of an upload, especially as you could modify it yourself > afterward, to your own requirements (just in case you decided that your > appendectomy scar or missing toe was somehow essential to your > personality). And even so, it would be easy enough to record any > differences to 'the standard human body (female)' that you in particular > might have, keep the data with your neuro corpsicle, and feed them into the > upload data, instead of going to the extra expense and trouble of > vitrifying (or chemopreserving) an entire body. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun May 3 22:55:16 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 15:55:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 2:21 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I can only think of one possible case where you'd want to upload (and thus > preserve in the first place) an individual body, and that's the (extremely > unlikely, imo) case where your unique body is essential to reproducing your > unique mind. > > We undergo all sorts of changes to our bodies, all the time, and it > doesn't seem to have much effect on who we are. I can testify to that, > having had various bits of my body changed and even removed, over my > lifetime. On the other hand, change or damage or remove even a tiny bit of > your brain, and you have a different person, or at least a different > personality. Ergo, the brain is vastly more important than the body to get > exactly right (and thus, to preserve). > I believe the counterargument is the endocrine system's measurable effects on personality, dominant moods, and several other psychological parts that are commonly regarded as the self - as the thing that warrants uploading. I make no comment in this email as to whether that is likely true or not. I'm just the messenger this time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 05:02:38 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 22:02:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do such >> people support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not hard >> to explain. I have done it several time on this list. > > That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. > > Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the USA 199 die. You must know more about the current German political system then me because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel was chosen. If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as they had majority backing in the Congress.) Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what happens is delegates vote in a convention. I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, with the specific presidential election process, or with having a president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly different process mainly because of superdelegates.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon May 4 05:10:30 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 00:10:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> References: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: In the US, the party conventions actually choose the nominee, per my understanding. https://www.usa.gov/election#item-212585 SR Ballard > On May 4, 2020, at 12:02 AM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do such >>> people support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not hard >>> to explain. I have done it several time on this list. >> >> That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. >> >> Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the USA 199 die. > > You must know more about the current German political system then me because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel was chosen. > > If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as they had majority backing in the Congress.) > > Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what happens is delegates vote in a convention. > > I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, with the specific presidential election process, or with having a president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly different process mainly because of superdelegates.) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 07:55:24 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 00:55:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C13AF16-02F6-4D0C-8BF2-85C7DCF4A9B2@gmail.com> Yes, though those delegates are mostly chosen by voting in primaries, no? And I believe the nominating conventions don?t typically go against the primary results, though I haven?t checked into this in any detail. I don?t believe 2016 was a counterexample, at least for the GOP. (The superdelegate thing with the Democratic Party, too, might have diluted some effect of primary voters, but I believe Clinton got the most of regular delegates meaning she won more of them than Sanders. Have to revisit that too.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On May 3, 2020, at 10:13 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?In the US, the party conventions actually choose the nominee, per my understanding. > > https://www.usa.gov/election#item-212585 > > SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 4 08:20:47 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 01:20:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 2:10 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population > that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not > bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. > For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those > populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. > > People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) > would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was > irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions > called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to > find an irrational leader attractive. > > You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age > psychological traits to the present day, though one example. > http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. > > I would also say that it is clear from history that people under > stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms > that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include > spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. > > Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you > as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? > It's that "relative" that's a problem. People make more wealth, and then get used to what they have. When, inevitably, some lose out and degrade from the level they are accustomed to, this happens. To satisfy the new normal takes more resources - especially as the population rises. Fortunately, new technology can create more wealth, but a challenge is distributing this new wealth equitably. Many efforts to provide a safety net and transition for the less fortunate are derided as socialism or wealth redistribution, in the sense of robbing from the rich for no useful purpose and/or for corrupt ends. The suggestion to learn to code was given apparently facetiously, but it is a good one in many cases - and there have been several organized attempts to teach out-of-work coal miners or similar to code (granted, some of these have amounted to fraud, but there are ways to reduce this, such as basing the pay to these efforts on the improved income of their students). I would go beyond merely teaching "coding" and try to teach software engineering: writing specifications, debugging, planning software development (in particular, learning to work in a team and figuring out how to divide up a software project, including designing, documenting, and agreeing to interfaces between different parts), and so on. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon May 4 08:33:03 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 18:33:03 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> References: <28D8E382-7592-455A-8C3D-3CBAD6649EC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 15:04, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 9:24 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> >> *> Trump isn't the problem, it's the people who elected him. Why do >> suchpeople support him? It's rooted in our evelutionary past and not >> hardto explain. I have done it several time on this list.* > > > That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald > Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people > made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but > under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the > 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only > presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this > country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it > or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to > unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. > > Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum > Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a > more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And > today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the > USA 199 die. > > > You must know more about the current German political system then me > because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems > the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct > election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the > parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel > was chosen. > In such systems, the people still effectively elect the leader, because the leader has already been chosen by the parliamentarians whom they elect. The parliament can change the leader by vote at any time. If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress > choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as > they had majority backing in the Congress.) > > Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first > go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular > elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up > because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was > vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst > his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what > happens is delegates vote in a convention. > > I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, > with the specific presidential election process, or with having a > president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly > different process mainly because of superdelegates.) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon May 4 08:36:01 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 10:36:01 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Blessed by toasters and washing machines? Not quite yet Message-ID: Blessed by toasters and washing machines? Not quite yet Researcher Beth Singler has reviewed my book in an essay titled ??Blessed by the algorithm,? published in AI & Society... https://turingchurch.net/blessed-by-toasters-and-washing-machines-not-quite-yet-31b7dbe96264 From ben at zaiboc.net Mon May 4 11:12:48 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 12:12:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3cbe9a38-61ee-3006-7789-add588b2eb57@zaiboc.net> On 04/05/2020 09:33, bill w wrote: > Is the idea just to shut down the hypothalamus? No, of course not. The hypothalamus and pituitary would be essential things to emulate, along with all the hormones they produce and their regulatory functions on the brain. I suspect their functions could be greatly simplified and still work just as well (mainly because the emulated body would be greatly simplified compared to a biological body), but that would probably come later. Initial uploads should include as much as possible about the brain/body interface, as well as the internal workings of the brain. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Mon May 4 11:28:43 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 12:28:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/05/2020 09:33, Adrian Tymes wrote: > I believe the counterargument is the endocrine system's measurable > effects on personality, dominant moods, and several other > psychological parts that are commonly regarded as the self - as the > thing that warrants uploading. No argument here, and I suppose I should modify my original statement about changes to the body not having much of an effect on our identity. Changes to the endocrine system would be significant, and should be included in the somatic data that goes along with the brain data. Still no need to preserve the entire body just for this, though. A dissection and the measuring and recording of a few kilobytes worth of endocrine data would be enough (again we'd be storing variations from a standard model, or maybe up to, say, a dozen standard models, to account for different genders, age ranges, etc. Actually the 'standard models' would themselves be just variations on one 'standard human' model. We are all built to the same general plan). And as I said before, many of these things will probably just be the initial stages. Later refinements would incorporate them into a more compact, more efficient and more controllable form. I keep thinking back to Greg Egan's concept of an 'Exoself' that is a kind of nonsentient (no, that's the wrong word. Nonsapient is better) computational shell around the kernel of the mind, performing the type of functions that our brainstems do (and hypothalamus, pituitary, other endocrine components, as well as other things that biological creatures don't have, or outsource to their technology). -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 4 11:37:24 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 07:37:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> The persistent shrieking of bitter contumely as a campaign strategy has > been demonstrated repeatedly on this forum (plenty of us have come to > suspect it is all an elaborate false-flag attack (designed to promote the > fortunes of the current POTUS* > It's odd. When Obama was POTUS I never saw anyone on this forum torture themselves with such painful logical contortions to deny the possibility that criticism of him may have some validity; people routinely raked Obama over the coals and nobody complained or even batted an eye. What makes it doubly odd is that whatever his faults may have been Obama was not an imbecile, a dramatic contrast to the creature in power today, and unlike the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue the idea Obama would refuse to leave the building if he lost an election never entered my head, but with Trump that scenario seems more plausible with every passing day. And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon May 4 11:43:52 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 12:43:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Resources and politics (was: Re: Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/05/2020 09:33, Keith Henson wrote: > > John Clark wrote: > > snip > >> But other than that I can't think of any stone age > traits that could be extrapolated to explain why one state was blue and > another was red. > > Economics. Every one of the states that went red had a population > that was facing a bleak economic future, unlike the blue states. Not > bleak in absolute terms, but humans respond to relative stimulations. > For a long list of reasons, the average life prospects in those > populations were not as good as they had been for their parents. > > People in the stone age facing a resource crisis (or a looming one) > would fight with neighbors. At the individual level, going to war was > irrational, but at the gene level, it was not. So if conditions > called for war, the tribe members have the psychological traits to > find an irrational leader attractive. > > You do need to be careful in extrapolating evolved stone age > psychological traits to the present day, though one example. > http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding is obvious. > > I would also say that it is clear from history that people under > stress from falling income per capita switch on the same mechanisms > that stone age peoples did for a resource crisis. These include > spreading xenophobic memes and supporting irrational leaders. > > Assuming the above analysis is correct, does anything jump out at you > as to how to prevent what happened in the red states? I certainly hope you're right, Keith. If so, and we do manage to fumble our way to an abundance economy, it will have an enormous impact on the political spectrum, shifting it towards one colour or another (I get confused with american concepts of right/left/blue/red. Over here, red is the colour of Labour/Socialist tendencies, and blue is Conservatives. Not that these labels are all that significant anyway, these days). But an abundance economy (or just 'more stuff, and less economic uncertainty for everyone', if you don't like the term 'abundance economy') would lead to more tolerance, less authoritarianism, more general sanity, and a safer world, is the message I'm getting. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 4 13:10:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 06:10:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark Ja, so why worry? The constitution is the reason why POTUS has any power at all. Without that, he is just another person. If POTUS stays within the ConUS, he commands the military. Otherwise not. Do let me assure you, if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done it a long time ago, starting in the late 1700s. The founders knew this and and wrote the law so that POTUS couldn?t. They understood the intoxicating effect of power. So they limited it. The system works. Given our current situation, I would think it is governors we need to watch. There are some of them who think their word is law. But every state has a legislature, and the legislature makes law, not the governor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:18:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 09:18:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] A Chinese animated propaganda video Message-ID: This short Chinese propaganda video is unusual because it contains more truth than lies, and that's very rare for propaganda. Its depiction of how the US got to where it is now is surprisingly accurate and complete, I would estimate about 85%; if it had included China's shameful cover up of what was happening in Wuhan in early December it would be close to 100%. Once upon a virus John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:47:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 08:47:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In Mississippi the legislature passed laws so that they could distribute the one billion dollars we are getting for virus relief. The governor first claimed it was his duty to distribute the money. After Katrina the governor did it. So we have a power struggle here. In this state the governor does not have much power, so we'll see how it plays out. bill w On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > *>?*And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on > November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be > unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark > > > > > > Ja, so why worry? The constitution is the reason why POTUS has any power > at all. Without that, he is just another person. If POTUS stays within > the ConUS, he commands the military. Otherwise not. Do let me assure you, > if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done it a > long time ago, starting in the late 1700s. The founders knew this and and > wrote the law so that POTUS couldn?t. They understood the intoxicating > effect of power. So they limited it. The system works. > > > > Given our current situation, I would think it is governors we need to > watch. There are some of them who think their word is law. But every > state has a legislature, and the legislature makes law, not the governor. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 4 13:47:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 09:47:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on >> November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be >> unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark > > >* Ja, so why worry?* If the Constitution was a law of physics I wouldn't worry about somebody violating it. Do you think it is? *> if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done > it a long time ago, starting in the late 1700s.* The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do wrong. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 4 14:35:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 07:35:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010501d62221$38ff02f0$aafd08d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >>? Ja, so why worry? >?If the Constitution was a law of physics I wouldn't worry about somebody violating it. Do you think it is? Without it, the government has no power at all. Why does it worry you? >> if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done it a long time ago, starting in the late 1700s. >?The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do wrong. John K Clark Indeed? Andrew Jackson was fascist and attempted to seize power in the 1830s, via the military. However? the military is professional, and professional soldiers must be paid. Outside the constitution POTUS cannot pay them or feed them. So? that attempt failed. Note the often-forgotten third amendment. The purpose of that was to keep the military dependent on congress. US elections are held at the state level. If a POTUS were to cancel all elections, they would go on anyway because we still need to elect congress members every two years. With no election of federal offices, the terms of both POTUS and VPOTUS expires on 20 January 2021. So? the next in command is whoever is Speaker of the House at that time, and that person is sworn in by the Supreme Court. Problem solved. Why do you worry about this John? Find something real to worry about, for there are plenty of real threats. For instance? something we have discussed on this list for a long time, energy production. There is a really interesting video online free called Planet of the Humans. It has political stuff in there, but plenty of useful information too. It is about green energy, or renewable energy. Film maker Michael Moore starts with Elon Musk, and asks the obvious question: where does all the power come from to charge these rigs? Moore offers it free: https://planetofthehumans.com/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 14:43:45 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 07:43:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> References: <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1E9F4AD5-E8C3-41B9-B533-1D7671D438A1@gmail.com> > On May 4, 2020, at 6:13 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > > > >?And so does the possibility that we won't even have an election on November 3, and please don't tell me both those things would be unconstitutional, I already know that. John K Clark > > > Ja, so why worry? The constitution is the reason why POTUS has any power at all. No, the president or any ruler anywhere has power simply because others ? those who are ruled acquiesce and obey. Now, sure, those who are ruled might hold something like the Constitution or legal traditions and such in high regard. But ultimately any ruler has ?any power at all? because those they rule acquiesce and obey. Take away that, and they cease to rule. > Without that, he is just another person. If POTUS stays within the ConUS, he commands the military. Otherwise not. Do let me assure you, if POTUS could possibly by any means seize power, they would have done it a long time ago, starting in the late 1700s. The founders knew this and and wrote the law so that POTUS couldn?t. They understood the intoxicating effect of power. So they limited it. The system works. The COTUS doesn?t enforce itself. See above. The reason it has any play in US politics is because many of the rules hold it in high regard, though it seems misplaced here because the history of constitutional restraint in the US (or anywhere because constitutions go back to ancient times ? as far back as the Ancient Greek city-states) is sketchy. It really seems to align more with who controls the commanding heights and how much those who can and do effectively resist erosions of restraint. Add to those, the political history of many nations ? and the US is no exception here ? has been one of executive power increasing and eroding restraints. Robert Higgs outlined this process as a ratchet effect: crises arise, emergency measures are taken which increase the power of the rulers, the crises resolve, there?s a relaxation of power but never back to previous levels. (Higgs focused not so much on executive power as on just government in general. Cf. his _Crisis and Leviathan_.) Heck, early in US history, the current Constitution?s limits was pretty much ignored when the Federalists controlled all branches of the central government. Even before that, what happened with the Articles of Confederation? The limits and restraints they imposed on the national government were set aside and ignored, no? This should be quite scary because regardless of whether Trump leaves office this year or by 2024, he?s definitely turned the ratchet (as did Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. ad nauseam) many times. Also, regardless of the stability of any political system, including constitutional ones, they can all break down. An ancient example is the Roman Republic, which lasted much longer than the US has been in existence, but eventually faced severe tests, especially under Marius and Sulla and then were civil wars and the Republic ended with a dictator effectively in charge for life. > Given our current situation, I would think it is governors we need to watch. There are some of them who think their word is law. But every state has a legislature, and the legislature makes law, not the governor. I wouldn?t ignore overreach at the state level, but let?s not ignore it at the national level either. Currently, both state governors and the president can continue to expand their respective powers and even have clashes without checking each other. (In fact, antifederists ? those who opposed the 1789 Constitution ? argues that separation of powers didn?t mean each separate power would check each other as they could all expand by limiting the power of those they ruled.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 4 15:03:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 08:03:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012501d62225$3d90ea50$b8b2bef0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do wrong. John K Clark John, this points out something that causes plenty of us to suspect your commentary is false-flag support of the current POTUS (whose name escapes me.) Anyone running for federal level who expresses contempt for a sizeable segment of the population will likely lose. We saw that in the now-infamous ?deplorables? comment, for although it was aimed at only a quarter of the voters, it felt a lot like it was aimed at about half, or perhaps more than half. That?s really What Happened. The author of What Happened doesn?t get that, still doesn?t get it. When politicians identify their political opponents followers and Fascists, hicks, gullible rubes and all that, they disparage and turn away those whose votes are worth more, specifically the ones from less populated states. That deplorables comment was echoed millions of times, and became a campaign slogan. Swing states swung, deplorable states became more deplorable, and we see the result. Granted, you could double down on haranguing the list with the bitter tirades if you wish, but it is having the opposite influence of what face value would suggest. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 4 16:29:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 11:29:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <012501d62225$3d90ea50$b8b2bef0$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d62193$e5d9be90$b18d3bb0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d62215$742074b0$5c615e10$@rainier66.com> <012501d62225$3d90ea50$b8b2bef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Is there any real alternative to nuclear power? How many people have been killed by coal? Miners, people who live near those power plants, and so on. Other forms are not cost effective yet, are they? bill w On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 10:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > >?The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous > presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large > (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do > wrong. John K Clark > > > > > > John, this points out something that causes plenty of us to suspect your > commentary is false-flag support of the current POTUS (whose name escapes > me.) Anyone running for federal level who expresses contempt for a > sizeable segment of the population will likely lose. We saw that in the > now-infamous ?deplorables? comment, for although it was aimed at only a > quarter of the voters, it felt a lot like it was aimed at about half, or > perhaps more than half. That?s really What Happened. The author of What > Happened doesn?t get that, still doesn?t get it. > > > > When politicians identify their political opponents followers and > Fascists, hicks, gullible rubes and all that, they disparage and turn away > those whose votes are worth more, specifically the ones from less populated > states. That deplorables comment was echoed millions of times, and became > a campaign slogan. Swing states swung, deplorable states became more > deplorable, and we see the result. > > > > Granted, you could double down on haranguing the list with the bitter > tirades if you wish, but it is having the opposite influence of what face > value would suggest. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Mon May 4 17:28:18 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 13:28:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6DE275C1-3B18-40CF-8A4F-E2F1D1450386@alumni.virginia.edu> Here?s some evidence of this escalating to violence: ?A 16-year-old boy in California's San Fernando Valley was physically attacked this week by bullies in his high school who accused him of having the coronavirus ? simply because he is Asian American...? Excerpted from CBS News (February 14, 2020). https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-bullies-attack-asian-teen-los-angeles-accusing-him-of-having-coronavirus/ https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/us/chinese-coronavirus-racist-attacks.html https://www.cbs7.com/content/news/FIRST-ON-CBS7-Suspect-admitted-to-trying-to-kill-family-at-Midland-Sams-Club-affidavit-says-568837371.html A woman wearing a face mask was punched and kicked by a man who called her "diseased.?Excerpted from NBC News (February 5, 2020). A woman was confronted on the subway by somebody yelling, "Where is your corona mask you Asian b?h," before punching the woman dislocating her jaw. Excerpted from the New York Post (March 10, 2020). > On Apr 16, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:11 AM Mike Dougherty wrote: >> >> So "fake news"? >> >> If i read that a bar in houston's chinatown is giving away free beer upon showing a receipt from any of the local chinatown businesses because people are avoiding that part of the city, out of ignorance and fear... is it so difficult to imagine misdirected frustration could turn violent? > > ### Ignorance? The Chinese virus was brought to the US by travelers, many of them travelers from China. In the absence of testing it's a reasonable presumption that your risk of getting infected by a Chinese virus is higher in Chinatown, at least initially. Does avoiding Chinatown make you into an "ignorant asshole"? > > So did this "misdirected frustration" actually turn violent? Is there a spike in anti-Asian hate crimes? How many Asians have been victimized recently? Who were the perpetrators? Anything similar to the Rodney King riots? > > Anti-American, leftist mass media (I am repeating myself here) promote the narrative of Americans being just bad, hateful people. When the facts on the ground do not fit the story, when the supply of real hate crimes does not meet the demand, there are many Jussie Smollets willing to create fake ones. That's why I am highly suspicious of those ritual condemnation stories about the ugly mainstream Americans, ignorant assholes, stupid, filthy and rural. > -------------------------- >> >> I've seen fb posts "fuck china" from people who i know haven't been more than 50 miles from their rural American home their whole life. >> > > ### Well, the CCP fucked us and the rest of the world royally. It's time for some disengagement, for mounting a defense against the economic warfare Chicoms employed against the US. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon May 4 17:54:15 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 10:54:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: Darin Sunley wrote: > Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal betters will win their hearts and minds! > Also, they should obviously learn to code, I don't think anyone will miss the sarcasm. Nice reply. There is one interesting example in recent years, the Irish Republican Army. The support for the IRA just faded out over a period of years. Why? And can this happen in other places? I have argued that the underlying reason the IRA faded out was that a few decades back, the Irish women went from way over replacement (~4 kids) to the European average of around two. Eventually, economic growth got ahead of population growth improving income per capita. My contention (based on the stone age war model) is that the improving income per capita and the brighter future view it engenders shut off population support for war or related civil disruption. As to how the economic prospects for the red states might be improved, that perhaps could be done with federal policies. But the problem and potential solutions would need to be widely recognized. That would be really hard given how difficult it is to get these ideas across--even here. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 4 17:57:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 10:57:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 4:30 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 04/05/2020 09:33, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > I believe the counterargument is the endocrine system's measurable > > effects on personality, dominant moods, and several other > > psychological parts that are commonly regarded as the self - as the > > thing that warrants uploading. > > No argument here, and I suppose I should modify my original statement > about changes to the body not having much of an effect on our identity. > Changes to the endocrine system would be significant, and should be > included in the somatic data that goes along with the brain data. Still > no need to preserve the entire body just for this, though. The usual choices are "just the head" or "the entire body". Since the former choice removes the endocrine system (and anything else outside the head that might possibly be relevant), that pushes people to the latter choice. It should be noted that this is theoretically a false dichotomy. For instance, if one merely chopped off the arms and legs then preserved the head and torso, that should capture everything that will need to be scanned to create an accurate digital self, with arms and legs added back in from generic human data. But in practice, real options presented today for cryopreservation make that a true dichotomy. For example, as of today, Alcor offers to preserve just the head or the entire body; they do not offer any "in between" option. Every other cryonics service I've seen, either offers the same choice or only offers one or the other option. So there is a real, practical choice - again, in terms of what is available today - between "just the head" and "the entire body". Since no other options are available today, no other options merit consideration for someone facing cryopreservation today. Other options might be considered for a future service, if there is a realistic chance that some cryopreservation service might someday offer other options. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon May 4 18:25:52 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 11:25:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nuclear power was is the USA Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Is there any real alternative to nuclear power? Several, a number of which have been mentioned here. If you want to consider the one I worked on for ten years, visit the google group power satellite economics. One of the last things posted was an analysis I did of what it would take to put the world on synthetic fuel from PV converted to oil. Recently the cost of PV power in the mid-east has gotten down to 1.69 cents per kWh. At that price, synthetic oil would cost about the same as the stuff that comes out of the ground. Supplying the world oil market would take paving about 1/3 of the Sahara desert with PV. Keith From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 19:30:14 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 12:30:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FB0634C-70D9-4EAD-8377-82EA2DFD8AF7@gmail.com> On May 4, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?Darin Sunley wrote: > >> Clearly, yelling at them online, degrading them, and demanding they get > onboard with the 21st century social progress movement like their coastal > betters will win their hearts and minds! > >> Also, they should obviously learn to code, > > I don't think anyone will miss the sarcasm. Nice reply. > > There is one interesting example in recent years, the Irish Republican > Army. The support for the IRA just faded out over a period of years. > Why? And can this happen in other places? > > I have argued that the underlying reason the IRA faded out was that a > few decades back, the Irish women went from way over replacement (~4 > kids) to the European average of around two. > > Eventually, economic growth got ahead of population growth improving > income per capita. My contention (based on the stone age war model) > is that the improving income per capita and the brighter future view > it engenders shut off population support for war or related civil > disruption. I?ve heard others claim some different based on demographics: Catholics increased in relative numbers, eventually becoming majorities in Northern Ireland counties such that electoral politics could succeed over violence. This shift happened in the 1980s and 1990s and voila! peace talks started and the PIRA. Of course, there are splinter groups like the Real IRA that still actively use violence to promote their agenda. > As to how the economic prospects for the red states might be improved, > that perhaps could be done with federal policies. But the problem and > potential solutions would need to be widely recognized. That would be > really hard given how difficult it is to get these ideas across--even > here. In terms of wealth redistribution policies, don?t red states already tend to get more federal dollars than they are forced to pay? So a change in federal policy would be what here? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 20:24:36 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 13:24:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does the Pope have Corvid-19? References: <559402829.1146268.1588623692814@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Friday, February 28, 2020, 08:33:08 PM PST, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 6:32 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> I?m not sure one will ever have the optimal time to dismantle the current system ? > > Well I'm sure the optimal time isn't during a worldwide pandemic, people are going to > be stressed and panicked enough as it is without throwing that hairball into the mix, Show Quoted Content > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 6:32 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> I?m not sure one will ever have the optimal time to dismantle the current system ? > > Well I'm sure the optimal time isn't during a worldwide pandemic, people are going to > be stressed and panicked enough as it is without throwing that hairball into the mix, So wait until next year. The issue has already been discussed for years and there are plans on how to dismantle the current system going back decades. It's not like this is new territory. And nations have before changed their monetary and banking systems -- almost always because of and even during crises. In fact, crises are usually the reason such systems are changed. Very rarely do they simply change because some academics said, 'Let's try this out.' >> in other words, if there?ll ever be a time it?ll be painless. > > There will never be such a time because the AI Singularity will happen first rendering > economic questions of that sort moot. Actually, you don't know that either there will be a AI Singularity or that it will render economic questions moot. There might not be one in the first place. But let's say there is. Then it might simply shift economic questions to a different arena depending on how it plays out. Whatever agents exist will still face economic problems -- in the general sense of economics being about action by agents who face choices because their goals exceed their means and they have imperfect knowledge and suffer under time (which are all kind of linked). In general, don't fall for the argumentum ad singularitatem: which is that any problem can be ignored simply by saying a technological singularity will render it meaningless. >> It?s kind of like abolishing slavery. It?s going to cause disruption, > > Yeah, like the sort of disruption the Chicxulub Event caused. Not at all. >> but that can?t be the go to argument against it. > > Oh I think it can be. Remember that next time you argue for any major change. To me it seems you have a double standard here. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 4 20:34:28 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 13:34:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> On May 4, 2020, at 1:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 15:04, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. >>> >>> Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in the USA 199 die. >> >> You must know more about the current German political system then me because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel was chosen. > > In such systems, the people still effectively elect the leader, because the leader has already been chosen by the parliamentarians whom they elect. The parliament can change the leader by vote at any time. > >> If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as they had majority backing in the Congress.) >> >> Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what happens is delegates vote in a convention. >> >> I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, with the specific presidential election process, or with having a president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly different process mainly because of superdelegates.) Yes, but they don't directly elect the leader, so that's similar to the Electoral College in the US: the voters elect the electors and the electors choose the president. Thus, John Clark was wrong here, in my understanding about how Merkel became and remains chancellor. I do agree, though, that the parliamentary approach is a bit more responsive since there can be things like votes of confidence pretty much whenever parliament is in session. In the US, once the president is elected, it's very hard to remove them from office -- something anyone can see with the current president. By the way, though I'm an anarchist, I've often told my non-anarchist friends that I believe a parliamentary system like the UK's might be better in the US than the presidential one -- better at restraining executive power. It wouldn't be foolproof, but it would likely discipline the executive better than the current system. Of course, it might not given how the Congress here, over the decades, has basically handed presidents ever more power. No reason that can't happen with slightly different political systems -- and the UK and Germany aren't known for having weak prime ministers. (Part of the problem here is thinking that constitutional restraints are real restraints. In effect, here the 1789 Constitution doesn't much control the real power because its restraints don't match the real power relationships. For instance, separation of powers doesn't mean much if one faction controls enough of the supposedly separate powers -- as now the presidency and the federal courts are dominated by the GOP. You'd want a court that isn't allied with the branch it's supposed to restrain, no?) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon May 4 20:37:22 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 13:37:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? Message-ID: John Clark wrote: snip > The current situation is unique in American history. Most previous presidents were not fascists, and those that were didn't have a large (about 35%) cult following, to them Donald J Trump can simply never do wrong. That falls out from the model I have discussed and is common with cult leaders. If people are attracted to irrational, then taking about imbibing bleach is not going to bother such people. (Unless they do it.) Railing against the existing situation doesn't help much. Understanding why we have the situation might lead to corrective steps, but not so far. That's the biggest objection I have to EP. The situation is obvious, but the model does not lead to suggestions beyond the importance of birth control to keep the "capita" in income per capita down and the need for economic growth faster than the population growth. Nanotech and expansion into space (which used to be topics on this list) might jack up economic growth and usher in an era of peace. Or they might not, who knows? Keith From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon May 4 22:22:49 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 17:22:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] BIZARRE In-Reply-To: <6DE275C1-3B18-40CF-8A4F-E2F1D1450386@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <6DE275C1-3B18-40CF-8A4F-E2F1D1450386@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <2F8619E9-292D-402F-B001-52F8C76DD542@gmail.com> These attacks are so illogical. If they have corona (which they probably don?t), then you shouldn?t touch them. SR Ballard > On May 4, 2020, at 12:28 PM, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: > > Here?s some evidence of this escalating to violence: > > ?A 16-year-old boy in California's San Fernando Valley was physically attacked this week by bullies in his high school who accused him of having the coronavirus ? simply because he is Asian American...? Excerpted from CBS News (February 14, 2020). > https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-bullies-attack-asian-teen-los-angeles-accusing-him-of-having-coronavirus/ > > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/us/chinese-coronavirus-racist-attacks.html > > https://www.cbs7.com/content/news/FIRST-ON-CBS7-Suspect-admitted-to-trying-to-kill-family-at-Midland-Sams-Club-affidavit-says-568837371.html > > A woman wearing a face mask was punched and kicked by a man who called her "diseased.?Excerpted from NBC News (February 5, 2020). > > A woman was confronted on the subway by somebody yelling, "Where is your corona mask you Asian b?h," before punching the woman dislocating her jaw. Excerpted from the New York Post (March 10, 2020). > > >> On Apr 16, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> ? >> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:11 AM Mike Dougherty wrote: >>> >>> So "fake news"? >>> >>> If i read that a bar in houston's chinatown is giving away free beer upon showing a receipt from any of the local chinatown businesses because people are avoiding that part of the city, out of ignorance and fear... is it so difficult to imagine misdirected frustration could turn violent? >> >> ### Ignorance? The Chinese virus was brought to the US by travelers, many of them travelers from China. In the absence of testing it's a reasonable presumption that your risk of getting infected by a Chinese virus is higher in Chinatown, at least initially. Does avoiding Chinatown make you into an "ignorant asshole"? >> >> So did this "misdirected frustration" actually turn violent? Is there a spike in anti-Asian hate crimes? How many Asians have been victimized recently? Who were the perpetrators? Anything similar to the Rodney King riots? >> >> Anti-American, leftist mass media (I am repeating myself here) promote the narrative of Americans being just bad, hateful people. When the facts on the ground do not fit the story, when the supply of real hate crimes does not meet the demand, there are many Jussie Smollets willing to create fake ones. That's why I am highly suspicious of those ritual condemnation stories about the ugly mainstream Americans, ignorant assholes, stupid, filthy and rural. >> -------------------------- >>> >>> I've seen fb posts "fuck china" from people who i know haven't been more than 50 miles from their rural American home their whole life. >>> >> >> ### Well, the CCP fucked us and the rest of the world royally. It's time for some disengagement, for mounting a defense against the economic warfare Chicoms employed against the US. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue May 5 00:29:19 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 00:29:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Evolved Complexity In-Reply-To: References: <7208fc42-ac12-afad-bac6-56801ef788f9@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, April 30, 2020, 03:10:45 AM PDT, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote:? On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:29 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >?? > But ecosystems, or at least the ecosphere as a whole, tending toward more complexity is an interesting idea. If true (which it seems, at first glance, to be), then evolution does produce more complexity. That's something I've never considered before, and I'm wondering what the implications of it might be. > ### Complexity is built on complexity. As soon as some spots in the universe accumulate some complexity, more complexity can develop in those areas.? > This goes beyond the living world and the ecosphere - it's a story arc that spans infinities. ---------------------- Yes, but the ongoing complexification of our universe as a whole is evident from both the expansion of the universe and the second law of thermodynamics, both of which are associated with the arrow of time. This is evident from even a single particle system. The more space there is for the wave function to spread out, the more possible quantum states are available for the particle to assume. An increasing number of possible states leads to greater entropy/information and is synonymous with greater Kolmogorov complexity. ---------------------- > I keep coming back in my thoughts to Wolfram's new physics. He starts with?the simplest possible, irreducible entities and the simplest possible, irreducible operations, concepts seemingly devoid of a relationship to physics and yet he finds they are capable of generating analogues of surprisingly high-level physical concepts. In his vision, what?the naive mind might see as simple things, such as space, vacuum, or electrons are in fact made of a stupendous number of irreducible objects/relationships. The humble electron has 10e35 pieces of math in it. The final, indivisible, elementary length is 10e58 times smaller than Planck length. ---------------------------- Leave it to Wolfram to try to brute force a theory of everything. I have been looking over his website but I can't seem to find where he mentions specific figures like the 10^35 parts to an electron. I am a little skeptical of his claims to be honest. To say that the entire universe could arise from a simple recursive rule that adds nodes and edges to a hypergraph sounds a little bit like saying that 42 is the answer to everything. And we certainly can't experimentally probe distances that are smaller relative to a Planck length than the Planck length is to us. With our best supercomputer, we can't even iterate candidate rules 10^35 times within the age of the universe in order to see if we can simulate an electron. His theory is not experimentally testable and is not practical to compute with modern hardware. --------------------------- > It takes a lot of moving parts to create a quark, it takes millions of years to transform a soup of quarks into galaxies made of boring hydrogen, it takes billions of years to cook up heavier elements out of the hydrogen, it takes hundreds of millions of years to create planets with alkaline seeps in the primordial seas, hundreds of millions of years to create the first self-replicating creatures, it takes about a billion years before some of the creatures to develop nervous systems, then another 700 million years before some of the nervous systems invent the scientific method, then another 500 years before non-biological thinking can develop on the substrate of biological creatures... (You notice the abrupt change in time-scale here, from billions to hundreds of years? An interesting?tidbit).? ------------------------------------- Where do the moving parts come from one?? It seems like he is saying that you can start with platonic bits and get matter particles out of them after an insane number of iterations. I don't see how that is possible by mathematical induction. Or is he positing some sort of ur-particle more fundamental that the standard model of which quarks and electrons are built and that his nodes and edges represent? -------------------------------- > I don't know what's next but it's clear that complexity has created more complexity since forever, every step of the way enabled only after mind-bogglingly?large numbers of moving parts come together in just the right way. There is more complexity coming, if not in our neck of the woods, then somewhere else in the infinite garden of all self-consistent mathematical objects (yes, Jason, if you read it, I am a modal realist, too). ------------------------------ I have to admit that Wolfram's theory seems superficially similar to my recent work on what I call "synergistic systems" or systems comprised of simpler components that display emergent properties that the individual parts themselves do not have. I have been mathematically analyzing how the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts as it were. An example application for my theory is deriving a mathematical description of why water is wet or how cells can live while composed of unliving molecules.? The main similarity between our theories is that we both use hypergraphs but his approach is recursive and my approach is more closed-form and holistic. I am trying to explain how complex systems work and not necessarily trying to be "fundamental". For example, my theory assumes quantum mechanics instead of trying to derive it from simpler theory. --------------------------------------- > Wolfram's notion of time is much different from the concept of time in mainstream physics, including general relativity. His measure of time as the number of elementary operations needed to create a hypergraph is incredibly appealing to me in an intuitive way. Time so conceived has a beginning but not an end, since hypergraphs are not limited in the number of elements they can contain. There is no end to complexity in general, although not all branches of the mathematical tree go on forever. ------------------------------------ His description of time is problematic. It seems to assume a sort of universal time that would violate GR. How do you resolve conflicts between hypergraph elements as to which came first in temporal order and so would be able to have the rule applied to them to generate the other? Does F(chicken) = egg or F(egg) = chicken? ----------------------------------- > He is not the first thinker to come up with the "It from bit" idea but to the best of my knowledge he is the first researcher to move it from a neat quip, or Game of Life antics to an actual research program. I hope that more amazing things come out of it. ---------------------------------- It is an interesting idea, I just think it gets a little hand wavy about at which step the bit becomes an it. Of course a Platonic modal realist might say that all self-consistent maths correspond to the laws of physics in some universe somewhere but then how did those laws get sorted from the Platonic commons to a universe near you? Also, how does pure determinism simulate quantum randomness? Or does a single simple rule generate ALL possible universes? Stuart LaForge From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 01:47:16 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 18:47:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> On Monday, April 15, 2019, 05:41:06 PM PDT, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:55 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >>>> 1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to sex and gender. >>> ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least among whites. >> >> I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do you [mean] >> rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it seems to me that >> the science tends to support non-binary gender and also that gender is definitely >> influenced by things aside from biology (in other words, there?s no uncomplicated >> path from allosomes to hormones to genitals to gender). See the work of Cordelia >> Fine, especially her _Delusions of Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on this. Both >> of them rely on science to challenge binary gender and the simple model of >> sex/gender that many adhere to. > > ### Gender is of course a biological trait, with culturally modified manifestations. > As any complex biological trait gender is not "binary", since thousands of moving parts > don't neatly partition into two sets - there are always millions of ways for a mechanism > to go wrong and produce all kinds of more or less bizarre versions. Show Quoted Content > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:55 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >>>> 1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to sex and gender. >>> ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least among whites. >> >> I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do you [mean] >> rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it seems to me that >> the science tends to support non-binary gender and also that gender is definitely >> influenced by things aside from biology (in other words, there?s no uncomplicated >> path from allosomes to hormones to genitals to gender). See the work of Cordelia >> Fine, especially her _Delusions of Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on this. Both >> of them rely on science to challenge binary gender and the simple model of >> sex/gender that many adhere to. > > ### Gender is of course a biological trait, with culturally modified manifestations. > As any complex biological trait gender is not "binary", since thousands of moving parts > don't neatly partition into two sets - there are always millions of ways for a mechanism > to go wrong and produce all kinds of more or less bizarre versions. First off, I'm not these variations are signs of a 'mechanism' 'go[ne] wrong.' Gender might have a biological basis, but this is probably a little like language. Yes, language has a biological basis, and things can go wrong here, but people speaking different languages or dialects (or even ideolects) and accents isn't really an example of biological mechanisms going wrong. Instead, that someone speaks Estuary English as opposed to Boston English is probably nothing to do with different genes or stuff like that. Now, to be sure, I don't mean to say gender is all learned or acquired, but I think much of it is. For instance, men wearing hose in Medieval times, though now that would considered womanly today. (Heck, the whole Medieval male attire (for a middle class or noble) would probably be considered, outside of re-enactments and film, cross-dressing today. To be sure, many films get it wrong, especially recent ones where men tend to dress in pants and look very 19th/20th century.) Now I doubt the change was because underlying biology (whether genes, hormones, gonads, or genitalia) swapped between males and females -- leaving aside the few whole are neither. > What today's extreme leftists do is they deny the importance of the biological underpinnings > of gender and they claim that a person's expressed preference to be included in some > gender category is sufficient for inclusion, regardless of other measurables. They also > deny the normative distinction between healthy, adaptive genders, of which there are > two, and the diverse gradations of deviancy. Show Quoted Content > What today's extreme leftists do is they deny the importance of the biological underpinnings > of gender and they claim that a person's expressed preference to be included in some > gender category is sufficient for inclusion, regardless of other measurables. They also > deny the normative distinction between healthy, adaptive genders, of which there are > two, and the diverse gradations of deviancy. I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's sneaking in basically religious morality with, of course, a pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may claim > himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his claims. Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that from... Of course, if like, years ago, when homosexuality was considered deviant, it was easy to point to openly gay people living a deviant lifestyle -- probably because they were persecuted and marginalized. (The same thing has been done before to individuals for being women, not the right skin color, not the right ethnicity, and the like.) To be sure, I don't want to say that there are no Leftists, extreme or otherwise, who get this stuff wrong or who embrace views going against science. But current gender/sex science seems to lean much more toward views conservatives (and alt-right, IDW folks) oppose. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue May 5 01:56:45 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 19:56:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> Message-ID: I read a good definition for "left" and "right" that I think holds for both the historical and modern cases. The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially their "right" neighbors. The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than the government. On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 7:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Monday, April 15, 2019, 05:41:06 PM PDT, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:55 PM Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > > On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > > > 1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain > to sex and gender. > > ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most > prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least > among whites. > > > I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do > you [mean] > > rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it > seems to me that > > the science tends to support non-binary gender and also that gender is > definitely > > influenced by things aside from biology (in other words, there?s no > uncomplicated > > path from allosomes to hormones to genitals to gender). See the work of > Cordelia > > Fine, especially her _Delusions of Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on > this. Both > > of them rely on science to challenge binary gender and the simple model of > > sex/gender that many adhere to. > > > ### Gender is of course a biological trait, with culturally modified > manifestations. > > As any complex biological trait gender is not "binary", since thousands of > moving parts > > don't neatly partition into two sets - there are always millions of ways > for a mechanism > > to go wrong and produce all kinds of more or less bizarre versions. > > Show Quoted Content > > On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:55 PM Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > > On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > > > 1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain > to sex and gender. > > ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most > prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least > among whites. > > > I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do > you [mean] > > rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it > seems to me that > > the science tends to support non-binary gender and also that gender is > definitely > > influenced by things aside from biology (in other words, there?s no > uncomplicated > > path from allosomes to hormones to genitals to gender). See the work of > Cordelia > > Fine, especially her _Delusions of Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on > this. Both > > of them rely on science to challenge binary gender and the simple model of > > sex/gender that many adhere to. > > > ### Gender is of course a biological trait, with culturally modified > manifestations. > > As any complex biological trait gender is not "binary", since thousands of > moving parts > > don't neatly partition into two sets - there are always millions of ways > for a mechanism > > to go wrong and produce all kinds of more or less bizarre versions. > > > First off, I'm not these variations are signs of a 'mechanism' 'go[ne] > wrong.' Gender might have a biological basis, but this is probably a little > like language. Yes, language has a biological basis, and things can go > wrong here, but people speaking different languages or dialects (or even > ideolects) and accents isn't really an example of biological mechanisms > going wrong. Instead, that someone speaks Estuary English as opposed to > Boston English is probably nothing to do with different genes or stuff like > that. > > Now, to be sure, I don't mean to say gender is all learned or acquired, > but I think much of it is. For instance, men wearing hose in Medieval > times, though now that would considered womanly today. (Heck, the whole > Medieval male attire (for a middle class or noble) would probably be > considered, outside of re-enactments and film, cross-dressing today. To be > sure, many films get it wrong, especially recent ones where men tend to > dress in pants and look very 19th/20th century.) Now I doubt the change was > because underlying biology (whether genes, hormones, gonads, or genitalia) > swapped between males and females -- leaving aside the few whole are > neither. > > What today's extreme leftists do is they deny the importance of the > biological underpinnings > > of gender and they claim that a person's expressed preference to be > included in some > > gender category is sufficient for inclusion, regardless of other > measurables. They also > > deny the normative distinction between healthy, adaptive genders, of which > there are > > two, and the diverse gradations of deviancy. > > Show Quoted Content > > What today's extreme leftists do is they deny the importance of the > biological underpinnings > > of gender and they claim that a person's expressed preference to be > included in some > > gender category is sufficient for inclusion, regardless of other > measurables. They also > > deny the normative distinction between healthy, adaptive genders, of which > there are > > two, and the diverse gradations of deviancy. > > > I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's > sneaking in basically religious morality with, of course, a > pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look > over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > > So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may > claim > > himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his > claims. > > > Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I > can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that > from... Of course, if like, years ago, when homosexuality was considered > deviant, it was easy to point to openly gay people living a deviant > lifestyle -- probably because they were persecuted and marginalized. (The > same thing has been done before to individuals for being women, not the > right skin color, not the right ethnicity, and the like.) > > To be sure, I don't want to say that there are no Leftists, extreme or > otherwise, who get this stuff wrong or who embrace views going against > science. But current gender/sex science seems to lean much more toward > views conservatives (and alt-right, IDW folks) oppose. > > Regards, > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 5 02:27:08 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 19:27:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Singularity was Does the Pope have Corvid-19? Message-ID: Dan TheBookMan wrote: snip [John Clark] >> There will never be such a time because the AI Singularity will happen first > rendering economic questions of that sort moot. > Actually, you don't know that either there will be a AI Singularity or that it will render economic questions moot. If you know of a way (short of societal collapse) that the singularity could be avoided, there are a bunch of people such as the ones at:"Less Wrong" and the Machine Intelligence Research Institute who would very much like to hear such reasoning. snip Keith From stathisp at gmail.com Tue May 5 03:44:27 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:44:27 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> References: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 06:36, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On May 4, 2020, at 1:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mon, 4 May 2020 at 15:04, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On May 2, 2020, at 5:55 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> That's not entirely fair, the American people never supported Donald >> Trump, not before the election during it or after it. The American people >> made it clear they wanted Hillary Clinton to be the next president, but >> under our system the wishes of the American people don't matter. Only the >> 538 members of the Electoral College are allowed to vote in the only >> presidential election that matters, and 304 of them decided that what this >> country really needed was a president who was an imbecile; and so like it >> or not that's exactly what the American people ended up with in addition to >> unconventional suggestions on where to place Clorox to cure viral disease. >> >> Meanwhile the German people picked somebody who has a doctorate in >> Quantum Chemistry, Angela Merkel, to be their leader, and because Germany >> is a more democratic country than the USA the people got what they wanted. >> And today only 80 people out of a million die of COVID-19 in Germany but in >> the USA 199 die. >> >> >> You must know more about the current German political system then me >> because I was under the impression that like in many parliamentary systems >> the prime minister (or, in this case, chancellor) is not chosen by direct >> election of the ?people,? but us instead is chosen by members of the >> parliament (or, in this case, Bundestag). And I believe this is how Merkel >> was chosen. >> > > In such systems, the people still effectively elect the leader, because > the leader has already been chosen by the parliamentarians whom they elect. > The parliament can change the leader by vote at any time. > > If the US adopted something like that, it would be more like the Congress >> choosing the president. (And maybe the president only serving as long as >> they had majority backing in the Congress.) >> >> Also, another wrinkle on how the US president is chosen. They must first >> go through their party choosing them. And that often involves popular >> elections in primaries (usually limited to party members). I bring this up >> because Trump didn?t just go straight to the Electoral College. He was >> vetted via a nomination process that did involve a popular vote (amongst >> his party members in most places) at some points. Though later on what >> happens is delegates vote in a convention. >> >> I?m no saying this because I agree with either having Trump in office, >> with the specific presidential election process, or with having a >> president. (Clinton, by the way, went through a similar but slightly >> different process mainly because of superdelegates.) >> > > Yes, but they don't directly elect the leader, so that's similar to the > Electoral College in the US: the voters elect the electors and the electors > choose the president. Thus, John Clark was wrong here, in my understanding > about how Merkel became and remains chancellor. > > I do agree, though, that the parliamentary approach is a bit more > responsive since there can be things like votes of confidence pretty much > whenever parliament is in session. In the US, once the president is > elected, it's very hard to remove them from office -- something anyone can > see with the current president. > > By the way, though I'm an anarchist, I've often told my non-anarchist > friends that I believe a parliamentary system like the UK's might be better > in the US than the presidential one -- better at restraining executive > power. It wouldn't be foolproof, but it would likely discipline the > executive better than the current system. Of course, it might not given how > the Congress here, over the decades, has basically handed presidents ever > more power. No reason that can't happen with slightly different political > systems -- and the UK and Germany aren't known for having weak prime > ministers. (Part of the problem here is thinking that constitutional > restraints are real restraints. In effect, here the 1789 Constitution > doesn't much control the real power because its restraints don't match the > real power relationships. For instance, separation of powers doesn't mean > much if one faction controls enough of the supposedly separate powers -- as > now the presidency and the federal courts are dominated by the GOP. You'd > want a court that isn't allied with the branch it's supposed to restrain, > no?) > Anarchism is interesting, because there are both pro-capitalists and anti-capitalists anarchists, each group claiming that anarchism would lead to the ideal capitalist or communist system. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 03:58:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 20:58:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b101d62291$78979290$69c6b7b0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?Anarchism is interesting, because there are both pro-capitalists and anti-capitalists anarchists, each group claiming that anarchism would lead to the ideal capitalist or communist system. -- Stathis Papaioannou There is a brand of anarchism which leads to communism? That goes against my intuition. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue May 5 04:08:00 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 14:08:00 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: <00b101d62291$78979290$69c6b7b0$@rainier66.com> References: <84B74946-D4B3-4280-88DD-2B9E9500F072@gmail.com> <00b101d62291$78979290$69c6b7b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 14:00, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > >?Anarchism is interesting, because there are both pro-capitalists and > anti-capitalists anarchists, each group claiming that anarchism would lead > to the ideal capitalist or communist system. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > There is a brand of anarchism which leads to communism? That goes against > my intuition. > Yes, historically most anarchists have been anti-capitalist, since capital and government can both be used to control peoples' lives. Anarchists were active early on in the Russian revolution, though later they were persecuted by the Bolsheviks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 05:42:36 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 01:42:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 7:26 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > All together, this is overall such a hugely low probalistic occurance that > is fun to think about but seems rather unlikely, at least to me. > > IMHO, I think this is why biology is so different from physics - it is > biological processes that drive the organization of molecules into such > ordered structures, and these processes follow the harsh and nasty laws of > evolution, increasing the overall infomation held in such colllections of > interdependant molecules, far beyond what could be held or acted upon via > simple physically probable interactions that randomly occur in the > universe. > ### Indeed, some physicists tend to approach biological processes with inappropriate ideas. You have probably heard creationists repeating what they heard from a physicist about even a single hemoglobin molecule being so complicated that it would take 10e165 years to create it randomly (or some other insane number). Of course, we biology nerds know that evolution is not random, it's iteratively selective and randomized, which is completely different from just random picking of possibilities out of the bucket of the possible. The physicists who came up with the Boltzmann brain idea failed to differentiate between random and evolutionary processes. They said "a galaxy is much bigger than a brain, so it must take much more random movement of molecules to create a galaxy than a brain", assuming that the likelihood of an object randomly coming into existence is more or less an inverse function of the number of atoms in that object. But we know that neither galaxies nor brains come into existence randomly, in fact both are created according to natural law, and their respective densities per cubic gazillion of light years are dictated by the specifics of that law, not by their sizes. Wolfram's hypergraphs provide more detail on the ability of simple iterative mathematical processes to generate seemingly random but still highly structured, lawful entities. Physicist will need to greatly refine their ideas about physical randomness if they follow his lead. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 05:53:52 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 01:53:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 11:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds interpretation > of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is right, and if > the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal Inflation > probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the universe is > finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite eternal future. > ### For the Boltzmann brain idea to be a paradox you need to consider not so much the size of the universe (or multiverse), as the density of biological vs Boltzmann brains per unit of volume. Using a simplistic approach, biological brains that are a part of larger entities (such as galaxies) should be much less common per unit of volume, than Boltzmann brains, since the former require many more atoms to come together. As I mentioned elsewhere, the resolution of the paradox is that galaxies and biological brains (but not Boltzmann brains) are created by physical law, not randomly, so their density is dictated by physical law and cannot be easily simplistically deduced from the number of moving parts inside them. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:10:54 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:10:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Subject: Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 10:30 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > In this case, "brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost > immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies > randomly forming in that universe" seems to be the error. Specifically, > ignoring the different time scales needed for construction (and its effects > on the likelihood of random assembly) between extremely short-lived > entities that would need near-instant formation - brains forming and almost > immediately expiring - versus extremely long lived entities that can take > much longer to assemble - galaxies. > ### Indeed, biological brains are created by physical law, while Boltzmann brains are created in a physicist's imagination. Wolfram's mathematico-physical process creates expanses of space with different properties, in the right areas of space galaxies form because the local physical laws make it happen, then in parts of galaxies planets evolve life, because the local chemical conditions make it happen, and then some lifeforms evolve brains, because the local biological conditions (still a consequence of the underlying mathematico-physical process) make it so. The Boltzmann brain paradox only exists because some physicists disregarded the lawful nature of our world and ran with simplistic ideas about randomness. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:18:53 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:18:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:22 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 03/05/2020 19:42, Re Rose wrote: > > IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it. > Thus, I have issues with uploading > > > The one doesn't follow from the other, even if it is true (which I don't > think, but that's a separate argument). > ### It's also worth mentioning that neuropreservation allows for a much faster cooling rate that leads to vitrification of the tissue and prevents ice crystal formation and subsequent damage. Therefore, as far as we can tell, the brains so preserved are much less likely to be damaged than brains preserved with the body attached. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:20:47 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:20:47 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 15:55, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 11:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds >> interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is >> right, and if the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal >> Inflation probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the >> universe is finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite >> eternal future. >> > > ### For the Boltzmann brain idea to be a paradox you need to consider not > so much the size of the universe (or multiverse), as the density of > biological vs Boltzmann brains per unit of volume. Using a simplistic > approach, biological brains that are a part of larger entities (such as > galaxies) should be much less common per unit of volume, than Boltzmann > brains, since the former require many more atoms to come together. > > As I mentioned elsewhere, the resolution of the paradox is that galaxies > and biological brains (but not Boltzmann brains) are created by physical > law, not randomly, so their density is dictated by physical law and cannot > be easily simplistically deduced from the number of moving parts inside > them. > It could be that, as you say, regular brains are more likely than Boltzmann brains, but the problem is that in some cosmological models Boltzmann brains are more likely. These cosmological models otherwise seem reasonable; should they be rejected on the grounds that Boltzmann brains are absurd? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:25:33 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 08:25:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Subject: Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This essay that I wrote a couple of years ago seems relevant to this discussion: https://turingchurch.net/does-god-emerge-from-boltzmann-brains-in-the-fabric-of-reality-7583c3dac485 On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:12 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 10:30 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> In this case, "brains just randomly forming and miserably and almost immediately expiring somewhere in the universe should outnumber galaxies randomly forming in that universe" seems to be the error. Specifically, ignoring the different time scales needed for construction (and its effects on the likelihood of random assembly) between extremely short-lived entities that would need near-instant formation - brains forming and almost immediately expiring - versus extremely long lived entities that can take much longer to assemble - galaxies. > > > ### Indeed, biological brains are created by physical law, while Boltzmann brains are created in a physicist's imagination. > > Wolfram's mathematico-physical process creates expanses of space with different properties, in the right areas of space galaxies form because the local physical laws make it happen, then in parts of galaxies planets evolve life, because the local chemical conditions make it happen, and then some lifeforms evolve brains, because the local biological conditions (still a consequence of the underlying mathematico-physical process) make it so. > > The Boltzmann brain paradox only exists because some physicists disregarded the lawful nature of our world and ran with simplistic ideas about randomness. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:33:09 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:33:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 2:21 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 15:55, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 11:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds >>> interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is >>> right, and if the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal >>> Inflation probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the >>> universe is finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite >>> eternal future. >>> >> >> ### For the Boltzmann brain idea to be a paradox you need to consider not >> so much the size of the universe (or multiverse), as the density of >> biological vs Boltzmann brains per unit of volume. Using a simplistic >> approach, biological brains that are a part of larger entities (such as >> galaxies) should be much less common per unit of volume, than Boltzmann >> brains, since the former require many more atoms to come together. >> >> As I mentioned elsewhere, the resolution of the paradox is that galaxies >> and biological brains (but not Boltzmann brains) are created by physical >> law, not randomly, so their density is dictated by physical law and cannot >> be easily simplistically deduced from the number of moving parts inside >> them. >> > > It could be that, as you say, regular brains are more likely than > Boltzmann brains, but the problem is that in some cosmological models > Boltzmann brains are more likely. These cosmological models otherwise seem > reasonable; should they be rejected on the grounds that Boltzmann brains > are absurd? > >> > ### Which cosmological models make Boltzmann brains more likely, and how? Rafa; -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:51:25 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:51:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's > sneaking in basically religious morality with, of course, a > pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look > over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > ### Do you have an insight into my motivations that I don't have? As I mentioned many times on this list in the last 25 years, I am an atheist, so please don't impute that I am "sneaking" and using a "pseudo-biological" approach. Being gay or trans significantly interferes with one's ability to create and maintain stable, child-rearing families. This is a simple biological and statistical fact. Dismissing this fact as "religious morality with pseudo-biological rationale" doesn't make it go away. That's the thing with facts, they don't go away even if you call them bad names. ----------------------------- So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may > claim > > himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his > claims. > > > Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I > can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that > from. > ### As you quoted above, disturbed or malingering. I guess you met the disturbed ones. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 06:55:07 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 23:55:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That definition would fail for the original usage ? given that the Left then was against the governing king. It also doesn?t fit examples of Left anti-authoritarians and of Leftists who work for community empowerment. The Right tends to worship hierarchy, tradition, and obedience. That said, many people are non-ideological or mixed. Often what is seen in the US and Europe is self-identifies Leftists adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On May 4, 2020, at 6:58 PM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > I read a good definition for "left" and "right" that I think holds for both the historical and modern cases. > > The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially their "right" neighbors. > > The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than the government. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 07:00:16 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 00:00:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the USA doing too much to prevent COVID-19? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <770E9436-56AC-4906-BC1D-C1E30262F7E7@gmail.com> On May 4, 2020, at 8:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > Anarchism is interesting, because there are both pro-capitalists and anti-capitalists anarchists, each group claiming that anarchism would lead to the ideal capitalist or communist system. > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou There are also _free market_ anarchists who are anti-capitalist. See, e.g., the book: https://store.c4ss.org/index.php/product/markets-not-capitalism/ Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue May 5 07:11:21 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:11:21 +0200 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Often what is seen in the US and Europe is self-identifies Leftists adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason." - well said! On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:01 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > That definition would fail for the original usage ? given that the Left then was against the governing king. It also doesn?t fit examples of Left anti-authoritarians and of Leftists who work for community empowerment. > > The Right tends to worship hierarchy, tradition, and obedience. > > That said, many people are non-ideological or mixed. Often what is seen in the US and Europe is self-identifies Leftists adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > > On May 4, 2020, at 6:58 PM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > > I read a good definition for "left" and "right" that I think holds for both the historical and modern cases. > > The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially their "right" neighbors. > > The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than the government. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stathisp at gmail.com Tue May 5 08:21:31 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 18:21:31 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 16:47, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 2:21 AM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 15:55, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 11:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> We have infinity to work with if Hugh Everett's Many Worlds >>>> interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct, or if Eternal Inflation is >>>> right, and if the inflationary model of the Big Bang is right then Eternal >>>> Inflation probably is too. And even if none of that is true and the >>>> universe is finite in the past dimension it could still have a infinite >>>> eternal future. >>>> >>> >>> ### For the Boltzmann brain idea to be a paradox you need to consider >>> not so much the size of the universe (or multiverse), as the density of >>> biological vs Boltzmann brains per unit of volume. Using a simplistic >>> approach, biological brains that are a part of larger entities (such as >>> galaxies) should be much less common per unit of volume, than Boltzmann >>> brains, since the former require many more atoms to come together. >>> >>> As I mentioned elsewhere, the resolution of the paradox is that galaxies >>> and biological brains (but not Boltzmann brains) are created by physical >>> law, not randomly, so their density is dictated by physical law and cannot >>> be easily simplistically deduced from the number of moving parts inside >>> them. >>> >> >> It could be that, as you say, regular brains are more likely than >> Boltzmann brains, but the problem is that in some cosmological models >> Boltzmann brains are more likely. These cosmological models otherwise seem >> reasonable; should they be rejected on the grounds that Boltzmann brains >> are absurd? >> >>> >> ### Which cosmological models make Boltzmann brains more likely, and how? > Here is a paper co-authored by several eminent cosmologists: ?The simplest interpretation of the observed accelerating expansion of the universe is that it is driven by a constant vacuum energy density ??, which is about three times greater than the present density of nonrelativistic matter. While ordinary matter becomes more dilute as the universe expands, the vacuum energy density remains the same, and in another ten billion years or so the universe will be completely dominated by vacuum energy. The subsequent evolution of the universe is accurately described as de Sitter space. It was shown by Gibbons and Hawking [1] that an observer in de Sitter space would detect thermal radiation with a characteristic temperature TdS = H?/2?, where H? =??8?G?? (1) 3 is the de Sitter Hubble expansion rate. For the observed value of ??, the de Sitter temperature is extremely low, TdS = 2.3 ? 10?30 K. Nevertheless, complex structures will occasionally emerge from the vacuum as quantum fluctuations, at a small but nonzero rate per unit space-time volume. An intelligent observer, like a human, could be one such structure. Or, short of a complete observer, a disembodied brain may fluctuate into existence, with a pattern of neuron firings creating a perception of be- ing on Earth and, for example, observing the cosmic mi- crowave background radiation. Such freak observers are collectively referred to as ?Boltzmann brains? [2, 3]. Of course, the nucleation rate ?BB of Boltzmann brains is extremely small, its magnitude depending on how one defines a Boltzmann brain. The important point, however, is that ?BB is always nonzero. De Sitter space is eternal to the future. Thus, if the accelerating expansion of the universe is truly driven by the energy density of a stable vacuum state, then Boltzmann brains will eventually outnumber normal observers, no matter how small the value of ?BB [4, 7, 5, 8, 9] might be. https://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.3778.pdf There are other models, such as eternal inflation, where Boltzmann brains may predominate. Most physicists see it as a problem with their theories, but on its own it doesn?t seem to be enough to dismiss a theory, unlike, say, an astronomical prediction that turns out to be wrong. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 5 09:40:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 05:40:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolved Complexity In-Reply-To: <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7208fc42-ac12-afad-bac6-56801ef788f9@zaiboc.net> <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:31 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Leave it to Wolfram to try to brute force a theory of everything. I have > been looking over his website but I can't seem to find where he mentions > specific figures like the 10^35 parts to an electron. I am a little > skeptical of his claims to be honest. To say that the entire universe could > arise from a simple recursive rule that adds nodes and edges to a > hypergraph sounds a little bit like saying that 42 is the answer to > everything. And we certainly can't experimentally probe distances that are > smaller relative to a Planck length than the Planck length is to us. With > our best supercomputer, we can't even iterate candidate rules 10^35 times > within the age of the universe in order to see if we can simulate an > electron. His theory is not experimentally testable and is not practical to > compute with modern hardware. > --------------------------- > ### See here: "One feature of our models is that there should be a ?quantum of mass??a discrete amount that all masses, for example of particles, are multiples of. With our estimate for the elementary length, this quantum of mass would be small, perhaps 10?30, or 1036 times smaller than the mass of the electron." 42 is just a number in Douglas Adams' imagination. Wolfram on the other hand proposes a research program into the mathematics of hypergraphs that so far produced intriguing results, so it's certainly more than just idle musings. It's true that at present there are significant computational obstacles to precisely following a hypergraph's evolution until you reach realms accessible to experiments but that's not a reason to reject the idea. There is structure to the space of rules, as he mentions in his introduction, so who knows, maybe there will be shortcuts. Also, the idea of "oligons" as candidate dark matter could help bring the program closer to being testable. > ------------------------------------- > > Where do the moving parts come from one? It seems like he is saying that > you can start with platonic bits and get matter particles out of them after > an insane number of iterations. I don't see how that is possible by > mathematical induction. Or is he positing some sort of ur-particle more > fundamental that the standard model of which quarks and electrons are built > and that his nodes and edges represent? > ### Well, he says the world is made of math, and that would be much more fundamental than the Standard Model. His ur-particle would be a graph, and the passage of time is defined by a simple rule applied to the graph, weaving both space *and* matter out of that ur-particle. Since there is an infinity of graphs and rules and their combinations, there is an infinity of deterministic universes created from such entities, with infinite strands of time issuing from each graph thanks to different rules, and infinite parallel worlds following each time dimension given different starting graphs. That's trivial - but the interesting part is that he is finding structures that have parallels to physics and "naturally" produce some high-level physical concepts even at the basic level he is investigating. A big difference from many other physical theories here is that the hypergraphs create both space and matter, rather than having objects (particles) play out against a background of pre-existing space. > -------------------------------- > > I have to admit that Wolfram's theory seems superficially similar to my > recent work on what I call "synergistic systems" or systems comprised of > simpler components that display emergent properties that the individual > parts themselves do not have. I have been mathematically analyzing how the > whole can be greater than the sum of the parts as it were. An example > application for my theory is deriving a mathematical description of why > water is wet or how cells can live while composed of unliving molecules. > The main similarity between our theories is that we both use hypergraphs > but his approach is recursive and my approach is more closed-form and > holistic. I am trying to explain how complex systems work and not > necessarily trying to be "fundamental". For example, my theory assumes > quantum mechanics instead of trying to derive it from simpler theory. > ### Give him a call! -------------------------- > > His description of time is problematic. It seems to assume a sort of > universal time that would violate GR. How do you resolve conflicts between > hypergraph elements as to which came first in temporal order and so would > be able to have the rule applied to them to generate the other? > > Does F(chicken) = egg or F(egg) = chicken? > ### The rule is applied to the parent hypergraphs in all possible ways to generate all possible daughter graphs (but at each step the number of entities created is finite, since we are talking about a finite starting graph and a finite rule). He mentions that some of his hypergraphs replicate GR, he defines spacelike and timelike directions in the graphs, but of course as a non-physicist I can't visualize it in enough detail. --------------------------- > It is an interesting idea, I just think it gets a little hand wavy about > at which step the bit becomes an it. Of course a Platonic modal realist > might say that all self-consistent maths correspond to the laws of physics > in some universe somewhere but then how did those laws get sorted from the > Platonic commons to a universe near you? Also, how does pure determinism > simulate quantum randomness? Or does a single simple rule generate ALL > possible universes? ### Well, the anthropic principle would sort us out to the universes that make us possible. Since there is an infinity of conceivable rules, there is an infinity of independent hypergraph-universes created by such rules, thus it takes an infinity of rules to create all possible universes. I am a non-physicist and the understanding of quantum randomness eludes me completely but Wolfram does mention that his hypergraphs give rise to entanglement and some other features of quantum physics, like the path integral. Since you are the physicist here - How about you read Wolfram et al. accompanying two 60 page technical articles and give us peer-review? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 10:31:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 06:31:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:22 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Because a body is much simpler than a brain, that too can be easily > emulated - more easily than a brain, * > You wouldn't even need to emulate everything in the brain because most of what a neuron does is routine metabolic activity needed just to stay alive that is no different from that a skin or kidney cell does. > > So, accepting that we'll want to emulate a body as well as a brain, do > we actually need a real body to record and upload? I doubt it. It follows > from the fact that a body is simpler, that we will be able to easily create > a virtual body from existing data about human bodies, > Not to mention the fact that the entire personal genome of the patient would also be recorded. > > *so no need to preserve an actual body* > Science can find no difference between an atom of carbon in your body and an atom of carbon in mine, the only difference between you and me is how those atoms are arranged. So if you could preserve that arrangement information there would be no need to even preserve the brain, but our current technology isn't good enough to be able to do that, so at least for the time being we still need the liquid nitrogen. > *change or damage or remove even a tiny bit of your brain, and you have a different person, or at least a different personality.* Not if the removed part of your brain is replaced with something identical, and that is actually what is happening every day of our lives, atoms are constantly shifting in and out of our brains and bodies; my brain is made of last years mashed potatoes. > > *> Ergo, the brain is vastly more important than the body to get exactly > right (and thus, to preserve).* > Yes. * > I'm pretty confident that a generic body model would be quite > sufficient for the purposes of an upload, especially as you could modify it > yourself afterward, to your own requirements (just in case you decided that > your appendectomy scar or missing toe was somehow essential to your > personality).* > Good point. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 10:37:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 06:37:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: <5a74bf24-ab7d-a3ac-badf-f1fa37b86fd7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 2:26 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> ### It's also worth mentioning that neuropreservation allows for a much > faster cooling rate that leads to vitrification of the tissue and prevents > ice crystal formation and subsequent damage. Therefore, as far as we can > tell, the brains so preserved are much less likely to be damaged than > brains preserved with the body attached. * > Yes, and if in the coming decades there was an emergency situation of some sort and Alcor had to quickly relocate it would be much easier to move a frozen brain than a frozen body and I wouldn't want to be left behind. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 11:14:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 07:14:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:59 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than > the government.* If they don't trust government then why are the right the super-patriots who literally hug and kiss the flag and look like they're about to hump it? Content may not be appropriate for younger viewers *The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially > their "right" neighbors.* A leftist is a rightist who got drafted. A rightist is a leftist who got mugged. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Tue May 5 12:03:43 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 08:03:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Agreed, it's easier to get faster cooling rates (although that's not always better, depending on the physical properties of the tissue and the ability to homogeneously cool without causing stress fractiures...) with smaller masses, such as brain vs. whole body. So in that sense a brain alone is more likely to be cooled and preserved intact, than a whole body. But I believe the whole body is necessary for a re-animation experience that will recover the essential "you". I realize this is a highly controversial topic. I saw other posts here saying inclusion of hormonal organs that communicate with the brain would be sufficient as that information could also be preserved and uploaded in future technoligoes. So, for example, torso preservations were proposed. I don't think this will solve the essential problem. I think any upload is problematic. I believe there are two problems that will be really hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical environment of non-neural information available in the body such as hormonal cycles or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from your gut) is difficult, with no solution on the horizon. Second, your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every human body is different and each body's cortex learns the characteristics of that body. While we know the cortex is nearly infinitely able to accomodate and learn, learning an entirely new corporeal system may not only overwhelm it, but the being that emerges after this process is highly likely to not be "you". I'm a participant in cryonics research because I want to be reanimated as myself. I'm not so interested in contributing a brain pattern that took me my whole life to create (and that I like very much!!) so be uploaded to some other agent who can use it to wire-up a version based on me that is so foreign that I'm not really there. IMHO, YMMV ~! Regina PS - what would be *really* nice is to save an uploaded copy of the brain along with the crypreserved body so that any damage to the information in the brain due to the cryopreservation process can be repaired using the upload as a backup. You would have your original body, complete with all its information, plus a brain backup for repair of any neuronal information loss. Yay! Sign me up, please -R --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 02:18:53 -0400 From: Rafal Smigrodzki To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:22 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 03/05/2020 19:42, Re Rose wrote: > > IMHO, I think whole-body cryopreservation is far better than > neuropreservation as I believe the body is a system and you need all of it. > Thus, I have issues with uploading > > > The one doesn't follow from the other, even if it is true (which I don't > think, but that's a separate argument). > ### It's also worth mentioning that neuropreservation allows for a much faster cooling rate that leads to vitrification of the tissue and prevents ice crystal formation and subsequent damage. Therefore, as far as we can tell, the brains so preserved are much less likely to be damaged than brains preserved with the body attached. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 12:41:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 05:41:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:59 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > wrote: The "right" trusts their neighbors, even their "left" neighbors, more than the government. >?If they don't trust government then why are the right the super-patriots who literally hug and kiss the flag and look like they're about to hump it? Content may not be appropriate for younger viewers They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video was a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by far. Perhaps you imagine an intentionally-distorted version of rightists. The "left" trusts the government more than their neighbors, especially their "right" neighbors. >?A leftist is a rightist who got drafted? If so, we would be running out of leftists. The draft in the US ended nearly 50 yrs ago. The youngest draftees would be approaching the end of a typical life-expectancy. >?A rightist is a leftist who got mugged. John K Clark If so, we would be running short of rightists. As watches have become cheap, credit cards easy to trace and cell phones even easier to trace, mugging has dwindled to nearly nothing. That is a crime which has mostly disappeared. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 13:25:26 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:25:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:07 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Agreed, it's easier to get faster cooling rates (although that's not > always better, depending on the physical properties of the tissue and the > ability to homogeneously cool without causing stress fractiures...)* > I don't think cracks is a major problem in cryonics because with a clean crack it should be pretty obvious what part went where before the crack formed and so could be repaired. I'm much more worried about the liquid in the brain undergoing chaotic turbulence as it freezes because if it does then very small differences in initial conditions could lead to huge differences in outcome; but fortunately most indications are the flow would be Laminar, at least when the cryopreservation is done under ideal conditions. *> I think any upload is problematic. I believe there are two problems that > will be really hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical > environment of non-neural information available in the body such as > hormonal cycles or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from > your gut) is difficult, with no solution on the horizon.* > Why on earth would emulating hormones be especially difficult? Hormone signals are very slow, much less than one meter per second; the signals in a AI move at 300,000,000 meters a second. The Shannon information content is small, there are only about 200 hormones in the human body. And Hormone signals move by random diffusion and blood circulation so their target is not very specific. If your job is delivering packages and the packages are very small, and your boss will be satisfied if you just deliver them to the correct continent, and you have until the start of the next millennium to do it, then you don't have a very demanding job. > *> Second, your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with > all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every > human body is different* > The cortex is also wired to learn new things. Experiments show that even when people wear glasses that make everything look upside down they soon learn to get used to it and perform normally. The same was true for glasses that invert left and right, one subject safely road his motorcycle through a crowded city with no problem. We quickly adjust to seeing everything upside-down John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 13:47:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:47:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >>?If they don't trust government then why are the right the >> super-patriots who literally hug and kiss the flag and look like they're >> about to hump it? >> >> Content may not be appropriate for younger viewers >> > > > > *> They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video was a > politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by far. * > Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 14:43:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 07:43:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video was a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by far. >?Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the Conservative Political Action Conference? And why were the conservative clowns in the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? John K Clark He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 5 15:26:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 10:26:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? spike *Well now there's an interesting question. Let's lay aside the issue of money and debt for the nonce. If it's not right wing, it's either left wing or a combination. Which is it? What has come out of D.C.in the last couple of years that we can point to and say conservative, or liberal? Trump's base is red, so what's red that he has done or Congress has done? If Spike is right, then the red base hasn't gotten what it wanted and should be unhappy with T.* *bill w* On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > *> **They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video was > a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by > far. * > > > > >?Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative > *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in > the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right > wing about how the US government is running. Do you? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 5 15:37:57 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:37:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't have an interest in getting too deep down this rabbit hole, but I do agree that in general Trump is not really a classical Republican, let alone right wing on many issues. That said, I can give you an easy answer on why he is tolerated by SOME real conservatives. He has appointed a ton of judges including SCOTUS ones, and has consistently sided with conservatives on the issues of abortion and religion. This is enough for a lot of them under the circumstances. Trump's actual base is a lot more complicated to pin down tough. In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been for a very long time. On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right > wing about how the US government is running. Do you? > > > > spike > > > *Well now there's an interesting question. Let's lay aside the issue of > money and debt for the nonce. If it's not right wing, it's either left > wing or a combination. Which is it? What has come out of D.C.in > the last couple of years that we can point to and say > conservative, or liberal? Trump's base is red, so what's red that he has > done or Congress has done? If Spike is right, then the red base hasn't > gotten what it wanted and should be unhappy with T.* > > > *bill w* > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >> >> *> **They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video >> was a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by >> far. * >> >> >> >> >?Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative >> *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in >> the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? >> >> >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit >> right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue May 5 15:53:11 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:53:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This. A lot of Trump's "base" knows he is, by historical standards, largely unqualified to be President and, by most standards, a terrible person on top of that, but see the utilitarian calculus as so stark that, if he can make a meaningful dent in the US's abortion rates [as he seems on track to do], as well as not start a major war, /literally/ nothing else he does matters. On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:40 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't have an interest in getting too deep down this rabbit hole, but I > do agree that in general Trump is not really a classical Republican, let > alone right wing on many issues. That said, I can give you an easy answer > on why he is tolerated by SOME real conservatives. He has appointed a ton > of judges including SCOTUS ones, and has consistently sided with > conservatives on the issues of abortion and religion. This is enough for > a lot of them under the circumstances. Trump's actual base is a lot more > complicated to pin down tough. > > In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been for > a very long time. > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit >> right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> *Well now there's an interesting question. Let's lay aside the issue of >> money and debt for the nonce. If it's not right wing, it's either left >> wing or a combination. Which is it? What has come out of D.C.in >> the last couple of years that we can point to and say >> conservative, or liberal? Trump's base is red, so what's red that he has >> done or Congress has done? If Spike is right, then the red base hasn't >> gotten what it wanted and should be unhappy with T.* >> >> >> *bill w* >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >>> >>> *> **They don?t. That is a cartoon version of rightists. Your video >>> was a politician clowning. The guy in the picture isn?t a right-winger by >>> far. * >>> >>> >>> >>> >?Then why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative >>> *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in >>> the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? >>> >>> >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit >>> right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue May 5 16:54:37 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 17:54:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 05/05/2020 01:29, Adrian Tymes wrote: > But in practice, real options presented today for cryopreservation > make that a true dichotomy.? For example, as of today, Alcor offers to > preserve just the head or the entire body; they do not offer any "in > between" option.? Every other cryonics service I've seen, either > offers the same choice or only offers one or the other option.? So > there is a real, practical choice - again, in terms of what is > available today - between "just the head" and "the entire body".? > Since no other options are available today, no other options merit > consideration for someone facing cryopreservation today.? Other > options might be considered for a future service, if there is a > realistic chance that some cryopreservation service might someday > offer other options. Good point. Alcor do, though keep notes on each patient, so people can make their wishes known re. resurrections conditions, etc. Perhaps the endocrine data could be part of that? It would be up to the patient, not Alcor to produce the data, and include it in the notes. I'm thinking that some blood analysis should be sufficient, rather than a detailed examination of the endocrine glands. In any event, the existence of the neuro-only option shows that many people think the brain alone will contain the essential upload data, and the rest, apart from a scarce few, only want full-body preservation because they want their original body, in working order, afterwards, not because they want a 'more accurate' upload. I'm confident that omitting data from the original body won't have any significant effect on an uploaded mind. Apart from vague statements about the body contributing to our consciousness, or our minds 'extending into' the body, I've not heard of any evidence, or convincing theory, to the contrary. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 16:56:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:56:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been for a very long time? Dylan Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 17:16:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016601d62300$e4eedd80$aecc9880$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides He knows how to appeal to right wingers. I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is running. Do you? spike >?Well now there's an interesting question. Let's lay aside the issue of money and debt for the nonce?bill w Hmmm? Lay aside the one huge and growing problem which has been looming over the world, and the US in particular, for so long. BillW, the rest of the stuff is sound and fury, signifying nothing. All the usual left/right noise we hear really is meaningless: abortion and guns. Neither of those things are going to change at the national level. There has been so much pressure, so much wasted effort for so many decades, my entire life, and the ball hasn?t moved. It will not in my son?s lifetime. However? The US, and governments all over the world, have taken an attitude that national debt can grow at a modest steady pace of 2-3 percent a year without harm, since typically economies grow at that rate, or fast. Sure, OK. However? What happens if suddenly they don?t? What happens if a black swan event causes growth to go 30 percent negative in one year? And what if that black swan event prevents an economy to snapping right back to where it was? What happens if governments must quietly discontinue nearly everything they were previously doing, and focus almost entirely on debt management? In light of that question, I don?t see any reason to call the current US government right or left, or any particular leader right or left. I don?t even see that this issue has a clear right/left split (do you?) which is perhaps why it doesn?t get addressed much. In light of that question, which of these other issues are of any real significance? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue May 5 17:20:42 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:20:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There's an argument for government debt analogous to the Doomsday Argument. Government debt is essentially borrowing against future real productivity productivity. Either the US will be physically productive forever, or it won't. If the US remains physically productive forever, repayment of that debt can be pushed off forever [we just keep paying workers with money broowed from their own future productivity.] If the US eventually stops being physically productive, some apocalyptic catastrophe has occurred, and whether or not that debt is repaid is completely moot. Either way, borrowing against the future is cool, and we will never have to stop doing that, or pay it back. This argument, along with the incredible awsomeness of an imperial presidency when it's one's own party's turn in the White House, is one of the very small number of bedrock concepts that both major parties are in complete agreement with. On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > > > >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been > for a very long time? Dylan > > > > Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two > mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a > morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. > > > > In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, > immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 18:34:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:34:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides >?There's an argument for government debt analogous to the Doomsday Argument. >?Government debt is essentially borrowing against future real productivity ? >?Either way, borrowing against the future is cool, and we will never have to stop doing that, or pay it back? Darin Sure, but what about those left holding the bag? We will never have to pay it back, because that will be after we are gone, but some live on, ja? What about them? What about the younger set here, those under 50? Are you cool with being the ones left holding the bag? Really? Why? And what about if that whole notion of borrowing grows ever more popular and necessary, then suddenly? there are no more lenders? Suppose the previous lenders suddenly cannot lend anymore because they are also in financial distress. Perhaps the same black swan event occurred to the lenders. Then they cannot lend, and they need to call in debts already incurred. They now depend on the productivity of the US, but not future productivity: they need right now productivity, and they need it desperately. In that scenario, there is no more borrowing, for lenders everywhere are in a similar situation. Whoever is running the White House in that scenario is nearly irrelevant, for all they do there is struggle to manage debt. Is that scenario really so hard to envision? Darin, in light of that, what else is really of any significance? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 5 18:52:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:52:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Money and me just don't click. I have a mortgage and no other debt. If you owe it, pay it, is my theory. But for the country? It won't happen in anybody's lifetime. They won't cut welfare, SS, Medicare and Medicaid because it's political suicide and if it's anything those in Congress like, it's staying in Congress. In the future, what? If conditions get so drastic here, then Americans will move elsewhere - duh. To the new place that's not bankrupt yet. What would happen if we just said: we have no debt - go fish? Then we run gov. on what it takes in because no one will loan us money. Of course, that is probably crazy thinking because I don't know economics. bill w On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides > > > > >?There's an argument for government debt analogous to the Doomsday > Argument. > > > > >?Government debt is essentially borrowing against future real > productivity ? > > > > >?Either way, borrowing against the future is cool, and we will never have > to stop doing that, or pay it back? Darin > > > > Sure, but what about those left holding the bag? We will never have to > pay it back, because that will be after we are gone, but some live on, ja? > What about them? What about the younger set here, those under 50? Are you > cool with being the ones left holding the bag? Really? Why? > > > > And what about if that whole notion of borrowing grows ever more popular > and necessary, then suddenly? there are no more lenders? Suppose the > previous lenders suddenly cannot lend anymore because they are also in > financial distress. Perhaps the same black swan event occurred to the > lenders. Then they cannot lend, and they need to call in debts already > incurred. They now depend on the productivity of the US, but not future > productivity: they need right now productivity, and they need it > desperately. > > > > In that scenario, there is no more borrowing, for lenders everywhere are > in a similar situation. Whoever is running the White House in that > scenario is nearly irrelevant, for all they do there is struggle to manage > debt. > > > > Is that scenario really so hard to envision? > > > > Darin, in light of that, what else is really of any significance? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 19:59:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:59:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 10:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> why was the political clown performing his antics at the *Conservative >> *Political Action Conference? And why were the *conservative* clowns in >> the audience cheering mindlessly at the buffoonish politician? > > > > > *He knows how to appeal to right wingers. * > If a right winger can listen to ANY Trump speech for longer than 45 seconds and think "here we have a sincere well informed intelligent man that will tell me the truth" then right wingers are as silly and stupid as the president himself is. Hillary Clinton called extreme right wingers "deplorables", and she got into enormous trouble when she did so, but that often happens when in a moment of weakness a politician slips up and inadvertently tells the truth. Over the years voters have trained politicians not to tell the truth and will punish any that dares to do so. * > I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is > running. Do you?* > Yes I do, I see all sorts of things right wingers love. Anti free speech. Anti abortion. Anti marijuana. Anti Free Trade. Anti Encryption. Anti Bitcoin. Anti gay rights. Anti Euthanasia. Anti environmental laws. Sympathy for Natzi protestors. Sympathy for the KKK. Anti high middle and lower classes. And Pro the super ultra high class, the richest 1% of the 1%. And *VERY* Pro the richest 1% of the 1% of the 1%.... except for Jeff Bezos.... Trump doesn't like Bezos because he owns the Washington Post which has exposed a few of Trump's many many scandals. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:11:44 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:11:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem to be), then who owns all that debt? What effect would debt simplification have on the overall picture? http://feedback.splitwise.com/knowledgebase/articles/107220-what-does-the-simplify-debts-setting-do In the example above, overall debt was reduced 50%. > holding the bag - spike Technically, no one ever has to hold the bag because you can: (1) Default (2) New country/government (3) Inflation (?Money printer goes brrrrr?) > Americans will move elsewhere - bill w How? Degrees? Only about 35% of Americans have bachelor?s degrees. For most countries thats the absolute minimum to come as general skilled labor. This allows you, at the least, to become an English teacher in many parts of the world. Religion? (Right of Return) There is perhaps a population of as many as 5 million Jews in the US, but the majority likely do not qualify. I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or grandfather. You must also be sufficiently orthodox. Members of reform and restorationist belief do not qualify. You could theoretically convert. Military? By fighting in foreign military, it is possible to get citizenship. 2 years in the IDF (though you might have to convert), 3 in the FFL, 3 years Russian army. If you are in US military, NZ (I think). Ancestry? Many countries will consider ancestry based requests based on parents and grandparents, but only a few further than that. Other skills? IT, with enough experience, a degree might not be required. So all-in-all, many Americans don?t really have anywhere else to move. Myself for example, and the US in general. Degree: no. I?d need 4 years and student loans. 65% of Americans don't have them. So now 35% can leave. Religion: no. Unless absolutely necessary, and if already married, would I even consider converting. And that would still require 2-3 years. Likely less than 1% of Americans would qualify. A good number of whom have college degrees, the average US Jew has 14.7 years of education, with about 75% having college degrees. Now we?re at 35.5%! Military: My fianc? and I are not ?draftable? in the US anymore but it should be possible to still join the military until at least 30. The issue? Like most Americans, I am too fat! Approx number of US men and women between 19 and 35: 66 million. The percent that are obese (too fat for the military)? 40% So that leaves us with about 40 million souls. About 35% of those were already counted as college graduates. Now we have about 26 million. Thats about 8%. Now about 43% can leave! Ancestry: My maternal grandfather, his grandparents were German. Nope! My Maternal grandmother, her parents were Russian/Belarusian and Irish-American. Nope. My Paternal Grandfather is Boston white-bread, and his wife was Peruvian. But it has to be your parent. Oops. I can?t use that. Percent of Americans with at least one foreign parent? Well, there are some 20 million of them (6%). They have an average college graduation rate. So now about 4%. The other variables I cant account for. Less than 50% of Americans can leave. Through sustained religious conversion or massive debt, the other half could maybe leave in about 3-4 years. But Israel won?t accept 150 million new citizens. No one needs that many English teachers, and not that many Americans speak foreign languages. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 20:25:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:25:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01eb01d6231b$4c67ab80$e5370280$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Hillary Clinton called extreme right wingers "deplorables"? Extreme right wingers? She identified 25% of America with the ?half of Trump followers?? comment, but it felt like she was taking in plenty of non-Trump followers, including Johnson followers, the greens, the stay-homers, anyone who didn?t vote for her. >? a moment of weakness a politician slips up and inadvertently tells the truth?John K Clark John you should start the anti-deplorable movement. Anyone who doesn?t support you is in a basket of deplorables, racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, you name it. That was a huge error, and it is What Happened. This person just vilified at least a quarter of the American voters as these things, but probably about half. No way anyone could get elected after that misstep. That was the biggest unforced error by a politician in my memory. I don?t consider that the truth. I think of it as hate speech. Racist, sexist, you name it, that comment was all of these. Since you have identified that as your truth, you should start your own party and run on that John. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:29:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:29:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolved Complexity In-Reply-To: <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7208fc42-ac12-afad-bac6-56801ef788f9@zaiboc.net> <471287573.878020.1588638559764@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 8:32 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I can't seem to find where he mentions specific figures like the 10^35 > parts to an electron* I don't know what you mean by that. Unlike a Proton or a Neutron as far as our most sensitive measurements can tell an electron has no parts, it has no inner structure, it is a point particle. But forget electrons, I'd be delighted if he could just explain why a ball going down a inclined plane moves the way it does. He can't, but to be fair to Wolfram neither can String "Theory" ; neither can make testable predictions so neither are theories, both are just ideas that maybe someday if we're lucky can be developed into theories. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:37:04 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:37:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DCBAE82-2306-44A9-AE79-F08D85B424CF@gmail.com> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020, 12:20:57 AM PDT, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > "Often what is seen in the US and Europe is self-identifies Leftists > adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason." > - well said! Thanks! I wish I'd copy-edited it before tapping Send. :/ I would've corrected it to: 'Often what is seen in the US and Europe is _self-identified_ Leftists adopting Right methods ? compulsion, hierarchy, and unreason.' That said, I also believe many self-identified Leftists are basically Rightists in disguise. They might share some Left ends -- emancipation is the basic Left wing goal. This is if one goes back to the origin of the distinction. The classical liberals were on the Left, in this regard. And so are anarchists. By the way, I'm not trying to oversimplify too much here. I wouldn't, for instance, identify the Right with conservatives, though conservatives are generally on the Right. The Right would also include anti-conservatives, such as actual fascists. (Fascists, in general, don't want to preserve current institutions, for instance. In that respect, they tend to want a social revolution. That might make them seem Leftists -- if one identifies revolution with the Left, but I would look at a given revolution's ends and means and not merely define anything that a radical break with the status quo as Leftist. In fact, a coup d'etat by a Right wing faction could be a radical break with the status quo all in effect to break down anything in the way of a Rightist social order. Obviously, this is exactly what happened in Italy in 1922.) By the way, see also Jeff Riggenbach's helpful essay on why he believes libertarianism (in the US-American usage) is on the Left: https://jeffriggenbach.liberty.me/why-i-am-a-left-libertarian/ His reasoning hearkens back to Herbert Spencer's 'The New Toryism': https://www.econlib.org/library/LFBooks/Spencer/spnMvS.htmleconlib.org/library/LFBooks/Spencer/spnMvS.html?chapter_num=5#book-reader Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:40:21 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:40:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A772EA4-0344-476E-A4CA-A5654812DB7F@gmail.com> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020, 12:00:17 AM PDT, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's sneaking in basically religious >> morality with, of course, a pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look >> over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > > ### Do you have an insight into my motivations that I don't have? As I mentioned many times on > this list in the last 25 years, I am an atheist, so please don't impute that I am "sneaking" and using > a "pseudo-biological" approach. Show Quoted Content > On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> I disagree with there being two 'healthy, adaptive genders.' That's sneaking in basically religious >> morality with, of course, a pseudo-biological rationale, into these categories. Again, I ask you look >> over the work of folks like Anne Fausto-Sterling and Cordelia Fine. > > ### Do you have an insight into my motivations that I don't have? As I mentioned many times on > this list in the last 25 years, I am an atheist, so please don't impute that I am "sneaking" and using > a "pseudo-biological" approach. That you fail to assimilate the actual findings of gender/sex science seems to show are casting out science... An atheist, too, can fall for many of the ideas inculcated by a society dominated by religious moral views of sex, gender, and the like. > Being gay or trans significantly interferes with one's ability to create and maintain stable, child- > rearing families. This is a simple biological and statistical fact. Dismissing this fact as "religious > morality with pseudo-biological rationale" doesn't make it go away. It's not established in that way at all. For a long time and even now, institutional regimes -- in other words, laws and norms inside institutions -- do their best to promote cis only families. For instance, non-hetero parents are prevented from adopting or keeping children (and thus forming families with children). This is legal disruption of family formation and stability. (It also doesn't help when, for instance, parents ostracize a child who identifies as non-binary or non-hetero. Do you doubt this happens? Do you doubt it can disruptive to not only the family of origin but can disrupt the child's ability to bond with others?) This is similar to how many so called learned men said women should go to college and pursue degrees, especially not in STEM fields, because of their biology: that their biology means they're less able to do the work, concentrate, be rational, etc. When, in fact, there's no biological basis for these claims and the empirical fact that less women were in these fields at the time had to do with institutional obstacles and cultural norms. > That's the thing with facts, they don't go away even if you call them bad names. Apparently calling trans people malingers or disturbed is okay though. Or do you have a factual basis that trans people are more likely to be malingerers or disturbed than cis people? (And I mean beyond social and legal stigmas that tend to make it harder for anyone not fitting social gender normals to get jobs and lead otherwise normal lives.) >>> So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may claim >>> himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his claims. >> >> Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that from. > > ### As you quoted above, disturbed or malingering. I guess you met the disturbed ones. Show Quoted Content >>> So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may claim >>> himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect his claims. >> >> Personally knowing and working with many people who identify as trans, I can attest that they aren't malingerers. I'm wondering where you get that from. > > ### As you quoted above, disturbed or malingering. I guess you met the disturbed ones. If they're disturbed, I haven't noticed. Of course, if you're going to define being trans as being disturbed, then you've achieved a victory (in your own mind) by definition. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:47:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:47:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >"here we have a sincere well informed intelligent man that will tell me the truth" That?s not what they are selecting for. They are selecting someone who will aggressively pursue their interests. >[Dem. Politician] called extreme right wingers "deplorables", and she got into enormous trouble when she did so Well ?Dem Types? don?t like this kind of language. They want an air of respectability. They want politicians to ?play fair?. And ?Right Wing? types don?t care about the language (because that?s not really their thing), they care about the implication that they?re wrong. They also know that they can use it as a weapon because ?Dem Types? will find the language off-putting. > Anti free speech. ?Left Wingers? also object to and cancel plenty of speech. > Anti Free Trade. There are also plenty of ?Left Wingers? that don?t like free trade. Have you heard of NAFTA? Opposed by US labor unions and US environmental groups since it?s inception? TPP has also been denigrated by ?Left Wingers?. Tide of bipartisan political opposition to free trade: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/20/republicans-and-democrats-oppose-free-trade-in-2020-white-house-race.html The anti-globalization movement has prominent ?left? and ?right? elements. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-globalization_movement > Anti Euthanasia. Before reading this, I thought Euthanasia was broadly disliked in the US but it turns out is it broadly favored. (73%) https://news.gallup.com/poll/211928/majority-americans-remain-supportive-euthanasia.aspx 55% of weekly church goers, 60% of ?conservatives?, and 67% of Republicans say it?s fine. So I learned something new today. >Anti high middle and lower classes. I don?t really understand this. Can you provide examples? But likely I address this in the section below. > And Pro the super ultra high class, the richest 1% of the 1%. And VERY Pro the richest 1% of the 1% of the 1%.... except for Jeff Bezos.... While the video had it?s flaws, this is clearly explained in the ?Always a Bigger Fish? video by Ian Danskin. https://youtu.be/agzNANfNlTs >Trump The dynamics of Trump?s ?Rabid, die-hard? supporters is described very well in Bob Altemeyer?s ?The Authoritarians?. Which is free to read via his website. https://theauthoritarians.org/Downloads/TheAuthoritarians.pdf It should answer almost any questions or puzzlement you have on the phenomenon. SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:53:23 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 13:53:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tuesday, May 5, 2020, 04:22:44 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > A leftist is a rightist who got drafted. > A rightist is a leftist who got mugged. How would that work given that there's been no conscription in the US since before I and many others here were born? Presumably, at least some of the folks here identify as on the Left. Oh, and I get the joke. An uncle of mine told me a different one: A liberal is a conservative who's been arrested. A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. That makes a wee more sense, though it reduces people's political views down to particular life trauma, which I find a bit overly reductive. Don't you? (Of course, if it's merely a joke, fine. But I think some people take these things seriously. For instance, ask someone why they believe the views they believe, and they often come up with reasons that seem to make sense -- they've examined the facts, looked over different views, and made a rational choice. Asked why their adversaries believe what they do and the tune changes -- my adversaries ignore the facts, have a bias because of their background, experiences, family, etc., and are irrational to some extent.) Regards, Dan From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:57:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:57:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <01eb01d6231b$4c67ab80$e5370280$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <01eb01d6231b$4c67ab80$e5370280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> This person just vilified at least a quarter of the American voters* Yes. And at least a quarter of the American voters very much deserved to be vilified. And no, if I were running for office I couldn't say what I just said, but I'm not so I can. If I were running for office I'd be going on and on about the great wisdom and nobility of the American Voter. > *That was the biggest unforced error by a politician in my memory.* Agreed. If telling the truth helped politicians get elected then they'd tell the truth, but it doesn't so they don't. She certainly knew this but when you make a hundred speeches a week you get tired and make mistakes. Trump's advantage is that he's a congenital liar so he doesn't even have to think about it, no matter how tired he gets a lie is always his default response. *> I don?t consider that the truth. I think of it as hate speech.* I'm not an expert on political correctness so I will leave it to philosophers to determine if hate speech is hate speech even if it's true. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 5 21:40:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 14:40:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <01eb01d6231b$4c67ab80$e5370280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <023301d62325$d3c1e4b0$7b45ae10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? This person just vilified at least a quarter of the American voters >?Yes. And at least a quarter of the American voters very much deserved to be vilified? So you didn?t learn anything from that. OK. >?And no, if I were running for office I couldn't say what I just said, but I'm not so I can? John K Clark Sure. But suppose you do. Then any candidate you endorse is entangled in your hate speech. This is a common false-flag technique. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 5 21:51:27 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:51:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or grandfather. SR According to what I read, if you don't have a Jewish mother, you are not Jewish. Mother rather than father for obvious reasons. bill w On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 3:13 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem > to be), then who owns all that debt? > > What effect would debt simplification have on the overall picture? > > > http://feedback.splitwise.com/knowledgebase/articles/107220-what-does-the-simplify-debts-setting-do > > In the example above, overall debt was reduced 50%. > > > holding the bag - spike > > Technically, no one ever has to hold the bag because you can: > > (1) Default > (2) New country/government > (3) Inflation (?Money printer goes brrrrr?) > > > Americans will move elsewhere - bill w > > How? > > Degrees? > > Only about 35% of Americans have bachelor?s degrees. For most countries > thats the absolute minimum to come as general skilled labor. > > This allows you, at the least, to become an English teacher in many parts > of the world. > > Religion? (Right of Return) > > There is perhaps a population of as many as 5 million Jews in the US, but > the majority likely do not qualify. > > I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my > Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or > grandfather. > > You must also be sufficiently orthodox. Members of reform and > restorationist belief do not qualify. You could theoretically convert. > > Military? > > By fighting in foreign military, it is possible to get citizenship. 2 > years in the IDF (though you might have to convert), 3 in the FFL, 3 years > Russian army. If you are in US military, NZ (I think). > > Ancestry? > > Many countries will consider ancestry based requests based on parents and > grandparents, but only a few further than that. > > Other skills? > > IT, with enough experience, a degree might not be required. > > So all-in-all, many Americans don?t really have anywhere else to move. > Myself for example, and the US in general. > > Degree: no. I?d need 4 years and student loans. 65% of Americans don't > have them. So now 35% can leave. > > Religion: no. Unless absolutely necessary, and if already married, would I > even consider converting. And that would still require 2-3 years. Likely > less than 1% of Americans would qualify. A good number of whom have college > degrees, the average US Jew has 14.7 years of education, with about 75% > having college degrees. Now we?re at 35.5%! > > Military: My fianc? and I are not ?draftable? in the US anymore but it > should be possible to still join the military until at least 30. The issue? > Like most Americans, I am too fat! > > Approx number of US men and women between 19 and 35: 66 million. The > percent that are obese (too fat for the military)? 40% So that leaves us > with about 40 million souls. About 35% of those were already counted as > college graduates. Now we have about 26 million. Thats about 8%. Now about > 43% can leave! > > Ancestry: My maternal grandfather, his grandparents were German. Nope! My > Maternal grandmother, her parents were Russian/Belarusian and > Irish-American. Nope. My Paternal Grandfather is Boston white-bread, and > his wife was Peruvian. But it has to be your parent. Oops. I can?t use > that. > > Percent of Americans with at least one foreign parent? Well, there are > some 20 million of them (6%). They have an average college graduation rate. > So now about 4%. The other variables I cant account for. > > Less than 50% of Americans can leave. Through sustained religious > conversion or massive debt, the other half could maybe leave in about 3-4 > years. But Israel won?t accept 150 million new citizens. No one needs that > many English teachers, and not that many Americans speak foreign languages. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Tue May 5 22:45:30 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 18:45:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Hi John, I think fractures are undesirable, and although they may seem easy to repair if they're "clean" - even so, that's a lot of repairing. There were experiements done by Dr. Cavallo (not sure if I'm spelling his name correctly, he was the doctor interested in doing the first head transfer) claiming that when he severed the spinal cord of a chimpanzee using a micro-sharp blade, he was able to get neural regrowth at the two ends (allowing the head transplantation). He did not claim, however, that the neuron-to-neuron pathway wiring was accurate, and if I were to guess I would it is likely is was not. Same for healing complete fractures after cryopreservation. Guided nanotech may be an answer but that's speculative for now, and its unlcear what information will be used to guide the nanomachines, so with what we know now - I think deep organ and tissue fractures/cracks are something to minimize. My concern about hormone simulation is not about the speed of their signalling, but the entraining and dynamics of the entire system. While some hormones are easy to model (like insulin), many interact widely in nertworked hormonal systems, like growth hormones, stress hormones, or female reproductive hotmoens. These hormonal feedback cycles interact not only with the body but also with the brain/mind. I often describe these cycles as similar to a system of interconnected pendulums, and disturbances in any of the cycles (ie, pendulum frequencies) can cause de-entraining of the entire system, which is then diffuclt to re-entrain, or may even find a new equilibrium. Keeping such a system stable is what I think is difficult, maybe impossible to emulate - not the speed of the hormonal information transfer. I'm famiilar with the prisim experiment, in fact when I was a kid I taped my big brother's bar prisim to my glasses, and proceed to stumble and fall all over my parents house for almost 2 days, stalking around and claiming I would "learn to see again". I accreted far too many bruises and bloody cuts to be allowed to finish that experiment, but I am confident it works - and, there are many, many interesting examples of people learning to "see" or "hear" with their tongues, navigate blind using only input from a weighted belt device, hearing sounds from the sparse data of a cochlear implant, and others. No doubt the cortex is completely able to do this. But the task in a new body would be overwhelming - like asking your mature brain to inhabit and rewire the sensory cortex of a newborn. I imagine it could be like multi-year long drug trip. That has to deeply change the essential you. I think this experience would be overwhelming, and brains are not infinitely able to rewire so very much without harm. As in my last email, I think you risk losing yourself: even if the brain copy + agent manages to eventually make sense of the world with all these changes and becomes an autonomous agent itself - it will not be "you". The happy goal of re-animating "you" will not have been met. I believe it *can* be met, but not via uploading. -Regina ----------------------------- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 09:25:26 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:07 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Agreed, it's easier to get faster cooling rates (although that's not > always better, depending on the physical properties of the tissue and the ability to homogeneously cool without causing stress fractiures...)* I don't think cracks is a major problem in cryonics because with a clean crack it should be pretty obvious what part went where before the crack formed and so could be repaired. I'm much more worried about the liquid in the brain undergoing chaotic turbulence as it freezes because if it does then very small differences in initial conditions could lead to huge differences in outcome; but fortunately most indications are the flow would be Laminar, at least when the cryopreservation is done under ideal conditions. *> I think any upload is problematic. I believe there are two problems that > will be really hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical > environment of non-neural information available in the body such as > hormonal cycles or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from > your gut) is difficult, with no solution on the horizon.* > Why on earth would emulating hormones be especially difficult? Hormone signals are very slow, much less than one meter per second; the signals in a AI move at 300,000,000 meters a second. The Shannon information conten is small, there are only about 200 hormones in the human body. And Hormone signals move by random diffusion and blood circulation so their target is not very specific. If your job is delivering packages and the packages are very small, and your boss will be satisfied if you just deliver them to the correct continent, and you have until the start of the next millennium to do it, then you don't have a very demanding job. > *> Second, your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every human body is different* The cortex is also wired to learn new things. Experiments show that even when people wear glasses that make everything look upside down they soon learn to get used to it and perform normally. The same was true for glasses that invert left and right, one subject safely road his motorcycle through a crowded city with no problem. We quickly adjust to seeing everything upside-down < https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable-research-seeing-upside-down > John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue May 5 23:15:01 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 18:15:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4894D08C-F56F-47FC-8854-AE0B972F8B3D@gmail.com> ?Being Jewish? So there is ethnically Jewish (your mother or grandmother must be Jewish), and there are the rules under Law of Return which state that your Father or Grandfather should be Jewish. That is ?religiously Jewish?. The thinking here (I assume) is that, due to a number of factors, many Jewish women ?marry out?. Among them: - Women are usually expected to marry a man about 4 years older than herself. The genders are largely symmetrical at the same age (20 vs. 20) but due to the high birthrate, each age cohort is bigger than the last, meaning there are more 20 year old women than 24 year old men. - Statistically, more women tend to be religious than men. So due to attrition, there will be less men in the same age group (20 vs 20) - Due to high demands for available men, dowries have become quite high. Simply put, some Jewish families cannot save enough money for their daughters to get married to a good man. So the thinking here is, they want the entire Jewish family. The assumption is Jewish men will only marry Jewish women, but Jewish women might not marry Jewish men. SR Ballard > On May 5, 2020, at 4:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or grandfather. SR > > According to what I read, if you don't have a Jewish mother, you are not Jewish. Mother rather than father for obvious reasons. > > bill w > >> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 3:13 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem to be), then who owns all that debt? >> >> What effect would debt simplification have on the overall picture? >> >> http://feedback.splitwise.com/knowledgebase/articles/107220-what-does-the-simplify-debts-setting-do >> >> In the example above, overall debt was reduced 50%. >> >> > holding the bag - spike >> >> Technically, no one ever has to hold the bag because you can: >> >> (1) Default >> (2) New country/government >> (3) Inflation (?Money printer goes brrrrr?) >> >> > Americans will move elsewhere - bill w >> >> How? >> >> Degrees? >> >> Only about 35% of Americans have bachelor?s degrees. For most countries thats the absolute minimum to come as general skilled labor. >> >> This allows you, at the least, to become an English teacher in many parts of the world. >> >> Religion? (Right of Return) >> >> There is perhaps a population of as many as 5 million Jews in the US, but the majority likely do not qualify. >> >> I am ethnically Jewish but the last practicing member in my family was my Great-grandfather so I missed it by a generation. It must be your father or grandfather. >> >> You must also be sufficiently orthodox. Members of reform and restorationist belief do not qualify. You could theoretically convert. >> >> Military? >> >> By fighting in foreign military, it is possible to get citizenship. 2 years in the IDF (though you might have to convert), 3 in the FFL, 3 years Russian army. If you are in US military, NZ (I think). >> >> Ancestry? >> >> Many countries will consider ancestry based requests based on parents and grandparents, but only a few further than that. >> >> Other skills? >> >> IT, with enough experience, a degree might not be required. >> >> So all-in-all, many Americans don?t really have anywhere else to move. Myself for example, and the US in general. >> >> Degree: no. I?d need 4 years and student loans. 65% of Americans don't have them. So now 35% can leave. >> >> Religion: no. Unless absolutely necessary, and if already married, would I even consider converting. And that would still require 2-3 years. Likely less than 1% of Americans would qualify. A good number of whom have college degrees, the average US Jew has 14.7 years of education, with about 75% having college degrees. Now we?re at 35.5%! >> >> Military: My fianc? and I are not ?draftable? in the US anymore but it should be possible to still join the military until at least 30. The issue? Like most Americans, I am too fat! >> >> Approx number of US men and women between 19 and 35: 66 million. The percent that are obese (too fat for the military)? 40% So that leaves us with about 40 million souls. About 35% of those were already counted as college graduates. Now we have about 26 million. Thats about 8%. Now about 43% can leave! >> >> Ancestry: My maternal grandfather, his grandparents were German. Nope! My Maternal grandmother, her parents were Russian/Belarusian and Irish-American. Nope. My Paternal Grandfather is Boston white-bread, and his wife was Peruvian. But it has to be your parent. Oops. I can?t use that. >> >> Percent of Americans with at least one foreign parent? Well, there are some 20 million of them (6%). They have an average college graduation rate. So now about 4%. The other variables I cant account for. >> >> Less than 50% of Americans can leave. Through sustained religious conversion or massive debt, the other half could maybe leave in about 3-4 years. But Israel won?t accept 150 million new citizens. No one needs that many English teachers, and not that many Americans speak foreign languages. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 5 23:21:42 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 16:21:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Covid again Message-ID: Copies off slashdot. As the administration privately predicted a sharp increase in deaths, a public model that has been frequently cited by the White House revised its own estimates and projected a death toll of more than double what it was predicting last month. The Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington is now estimating that there will be nearly 135,000 deaths in the U.S. through the beginning of August -- more than double what it forecast on April 17, when it estimated 60,308 deaths by Aug. 4. (There have already been more than 68,000 deaths in the U.S.) The institute wrote that the revisions "reflect rising mobility in most U.S. states as well as the easing of social distancing measures expected in 31 states by May 11, indicating that growing contacts among people will promote transmission of the coronavirus." Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 6 13:33:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 09:33:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 6:49 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I think fractures are undesirable, and although they may seem easy to > repair if they're "clean" - even so, that's a lot of repairing.* > Sure, any damage is undesirable but the sad fact is even if a patient is cryopreserved using the best methods available today a huge amount of damage will be caused and a massive amount of repairing (or replacing) will be needed to bring the person back to consciousness. And cracks are by far the least serious form of damage because it is the easiest to fix or replace, if you can't fix cracks then you have no hope of fixing the far more serious forms of damage. I don't think any Cryonics patient will be revived until we have Drexler style Nanotechnology and can control matter at the atomic level. The key question is if Information Theoretic Death has occurred, if the information on what makes you be you is lost then you're dead. That's why I think Alcor should switch from the vitrification process it uses now to ASC (Aldehyde Stabilized Cryopreservation). In ASC in addition to a cryoprotectant a brain is also infused with the chemical Glutaraldehyde, it's the stuff in wart removing lotion you can get over the counter in any drugstore. Glutaraldehyde kills cells because it crosslinks proteins, but that very cross-linking holds things in place even when they're cooled down to liquid nitrogen temperatures, and so Information Theoretic Death is avoided. ASC has been used on a entire pig's brain which was then cooled down to near liquid nitrogen temperatures and then warmed back up to room temperature and sliced into thin sections and sent to a electron microscope. The result was beautiful pictures of synapses and other brain structures that are far superior to the pictures Alcor's current vitrification process can produce, and there is no reason to think molecular-level information wouldn't be preserved too. It's even more impressive when you consider that the pictures were made after rewarming because most of the damage happens at the warming stage not the cooling stage, I would have been delighted even if the pictures were made while the brain was still frozen because I'd be willing to let future technology worry about warming, but this is even better. Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won Nevertheless Alcor has resisted changing over to ASC, I suspect the reason for their hesitation is that if they did so they would implicitly be saying "*we're not even trying to bring that frozen body back to life, we're just trying to preserve the information in it because information on how the atoms are arranged in my brain are different from the way they are arranged in your brain is the only difference between you and me*". I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but the ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is still haunting the 21th century and many still think that despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary the atoms in our bodies must somehow have our name scratched on them. I suspect Alcor is reluctant to change because they believe ASC would be bad public relations. But I think reality is more important than PR and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > > *Guided nanotech may be an answer* > I don't think there is any "may" about it, without Nanotech there is no hope. Incidentally back in 1986 in Drexler's classic book on Nanotechnology "Engines Of Creation" he describes something very similar to ASC that people alive today could use right now to achieve immortality, or something close to it. > > *My concern about hormone simulation is not about the speed of their > signalling, but the entraining and dynamics of the entire system. While > some hormones are easy to model (like insulin), many interact widely in > nertworked hormonal systems, like growth hormones, stress hormones, or > female reproductive hotmoens. These hormonal feedback cycles interact not > only with the body but also with the brain/mind.* > If future technology is not good enough to model hormonal feedback cycles then it certainly isn't good enough to repair or replace the 100 trillion damaged synapses in the human brain and there is no hope, Cryonics patients are not patients at all they're just frozen dead meat. > *> even if the brain copy + agent manages to eventually make sense of the > world with all these changes and becomes an autonomous agent itself - it > will not be "you".* > People, even philosophers, use that personal pronoun with abandon without giving it a second thought, I do too because right now there is only one chunk of matter in the observable universe that behaves in a johnkclarkian way. But that need not always be true because it is caused not by a scientific law but simply because of a lack of technological sophistication. When the age of Nanotechnology arrives the entire English language will need retooling, especially in the way it treats personal pronouns. The only reason I think I'm the same guy I was yesterday is that I remember being John Clark yesterday, the same thing will be true even in the age of Nanotechnology, although there could be many people claiming to be John Clark because they all remember being him yesterday. And all of them would be correct and have a equally valid claim of being "me". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed May 6 14:55:12 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 08:55:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which copy wins the philosophical claim of "being" "me" doesn't worry me. Which one wins the legal claims of "gets to lock the other copies of me out of the house I'm living in now", "gets to continue the relationship I have with my employer right now", and most importantly, the social claim of "gets to hang out with my unduplicated wife and kids"... These worry me a great deal. Enough that I think I'd like to have a good plan in place to resolve those claims before a hundred (or a million!) of me wake up one fine morning each having a 99 (or 99.9999!) percent chance of being disposessed of unduplicatable real property and relationships and we have to start playing Highlander ("There can be only one!"). On Wed, May 6, 2020, 7:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 6:49 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *I think fractures are undesirable, and although they may seem easy to >> repair if they're "clean" - even so, that's a lot of repairing.* >> > > Sure, any damage is undesirable but the sad fact is even if a patient is > cryopreserved using the best methods available today a huge amount of > damage will be caused and a massive amount of repairing (or replacing) will > be needed to bring the person back to consciousness. And cracks are by far > the least serious form of damage because it is the easiest to fix or > replace, if you can't fix cracks then you have no hope of fixing the far > more serious forms of damage. I don't think any Cryonics patient will be > revived until we have Drexler style Nanotechnology and can control matter > at the atomic level. > > The key question is if Information Theoretic Death has occurred, if the > information on what makes you be you is lost then you're dead. That's why I > think Alcor should switch from the vitrification process it uses now to ASC > (Aldehyde Stabilized Cryopreservation). In ASC in addition to a > cryoprotectant a brain is also infused with the chemical Glutaraldehyde, > it's the stuff in wart removing lotion you can get over the counter in any > drugstore. Glutaraldehyde kills cells because it crosslinks proteins, but > that very cross-linking holds things in place even when they're cooled down > to liquid nitrogen temperatures, and so Information Theoretic Death is > avoided. > > ASC has been used on a entire pig's brain which was then cooled down to > near liquid nitrogen temperatures and then warmed back up to room > temperature and sliced into thin sections and sent to a electron > microscope. The result was beautiful pictures of synapses and other brain > structures that are far superior to the pictures Alcor's current > vitrification process can produce, and there is no reason to think > molecular-level information wouldn't be preserved too. It's even more > impressive when you consider that the pictures were made after rewarming > because most of the damage happens at the warming stage not the cooling > stage, I would have been delighted even if the pictures were made while the > brain was still frozen because I'd be willing to let future technology > worry about warming, but this is even better. > > Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won > > > Nevertheless Alcor has resisted changing over to ASC, I suspect the reason > for their hesitation is that if they did so they would implicitly be saying > "*we're not even trying to bring that frozen body back to life, we're > just trying to preserve the information in it because information on how > the atoms are arranged in my brain are different from the way they are > arranged in your brain is the only difference between you and me*". > > I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but the > ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is still haunting > the 21th century and many still think that despite all the scientific > evidence to the contrary the atoms in our bodies must somehow have our name > scratched on them. I suspect Alcor is reluctant to change because they > believe ASC would be bad public relations. But I think reality is more > important than PR and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > > >> > *Guided nanotech may be an answer* >> > > I don't think there is any "may" about it, without Nanotech there is no > hope. Incidentally back in 1986 in Drexler's classic book on Nanotechnology > "Engines Of Creation" he describes something very similar to ASC that > people alive today could use right now to achieve immortality, or something > close to it. > > >> > *My concern about hormone simulation is not about the speed of their >> signalling, but the entraining and dynamics of the entire system. While >> some hormones are easy to model (like insulin), many interact widely in >> nertworked hormonal systems, like growth hormones, stress hormones, or >> female reproductive hotmoens. These hormonal feedback cycles interact not >> only with the body but also with the brain/mind.* >> > > If future technology is not good enough to model hormonal feedback cycles > then it certainly isn't good enough to repair or replace the 100 trillion > damaged synapses in the human brain and there is no hope, Cryonics patients > are not patients at all they're just frozen dead meat. > > >> *> even if the brain copy + agent manages to eventually make sense of the >> world with all these changes and becomes an autonomous agent itself - it >> will not be "you".* >> > > People, even philosophers, use that personal pronoun with abandon without > giving it a second thought, I do too because right now there is only one > chunk of matter in the observable universe that behaves in a > johnkclarkian way. But that need not always be true because it is caused > not by a scientific law but simply because of a lack of technological > sophistication. When the age of Nanotechnology arrives the entire English > language will need retooling, especially in the way it treats personal > pronouns. > > The only reason I think I'm the same guy I was yesterday is that I > remember being John Clark yesterday, the same thing will be true even in > the age of Nanotechnology, although there could be many people claiming > to be John Clark because they all remember being him yesterday. And all of > them would be correct and have a equally valid claim of being "me". > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 6 17:43:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 13:43:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:58 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *>Which copy wins the philosophical claim of "being" "me" doesn't worry me.* > Me neither. As far as I'm concerned the more people that remember being me right now the better. > *Which one wins the legal claims of "gets to lock the other copies of me > out of the house I'm living in now", "gets to continue the relationship I > have with my employer right now",* > When technology becomes advanced enough to duplicate something as advanced as a human then they can duplicate anything, even land because you'll almost certainly be a upload living in a virtual world (if the kind people who took the time to revive you know you'd be upset by that knowledge they just won't tell you), and that means economic questions that we think are so important today would be pretty much moot. I'm not saying a revived Cryonics patient won't have problems adjusting, but none of the problems will be as severe as the problem of nonexistence. And that's why I'm signed up for Cryonics, I'll deal with the problems. > > *and most importantly, the social claim of "gets to hang out with my > unduplicated wife and kids"... These worry me a great deal. Enough that I > think I'd like to have a good plan in place to resolve those claim* > That's something for your wife and kids to decide not "you", whatever that personal pronoun means. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 6 19:21:32 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:21:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 05/05/2020 17:56, Re Rose wrote: > don't think this will solve the essential problem. I think any upload > is problematic. I believe there are two problems that will be really > hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical environment of > non-neural information available in the body such as hormonal cycles > or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from your gut) > is difficult, with no solution on the horizon. Second, your cortex is > specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, > balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every human body is > different and each body's cortex learns the characteristics of that > body. While we know the cortex is nearly infinitely able to accomodate > and learn, learning an entirely new corporeal system may not only > overwhelm it, but the being that emerges after this process is highly > likely to?not be "you". I think the clue here is in "your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics". If the cortex is uploaded successfully, then the upload will contain all the information needed to reproduce these 'quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics'. The emulated body would take this information, and reproduce the environment that the cortex expects. A bit like a mould, it doesn't matter if you have a positive or a negative impression, you have the same information, and can produce the opposite piece. As for the cyclic, dynamical environment, I don't see how that would be a problem. I've suffered from severe jet-lag before, it didn't make me a different person, and I soon recovered from it. And as we are all basically the same, the detailed differences wouldn't be significant. Certainly not as significant as you are saying, so as to make you a different person. "PS - what would be *really* nice is to save an uploaded copy of the brain along with the crypreserved?body so that any damage to the information in the brain due to the cryopreservation process can be repaired using the upload as a backup. You would have your original body, complete with all its information, plus a brain backup for repair of any neuronal information loss. Yay! Sign me up, please -R" I don't understand this. If you already had an uploaded copy of the brain, there would be no point in having a cryopreserved original. There would be no point in the cryopreservation in the first place, if we could create the upload without it. The point of cryopreservation is that we can't upload brains yet, so it's a way of preserving the information until we can. Once we can upload wet brains, no-one would bother with cryopreservation (assuming the upload process wouldn't destroy the brain, which it probably would). -- Ben Zaiboc From sparge at gmail.com Wed May 6 20:40:45 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 16:40:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:14 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem > to be), then who owns all that debt? > Anyone or anything that bought those bonds. Governments don't hold much of the debt. It's mostly funds and individuals. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed May 6 20:50:55 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 14:50:55 -0600 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: When the bonds come due the government pays out those obligations with cash on hand, Since they have no cash, they borrow it from the Fed, promising to pay for it with future cash on hand from general revenue. What it ultimately comes down to is they're borrowing against assumed future tax revenue. Which, as I mentioned upthread, works excellently until it suddenly doesn't, though the prevailing assumption seems to be that any event disruptive enough to stop it from working will render any actual repayments moot. On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 2:43 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:14 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Like I?ve said before, if EVERY country is in debt (and they all do seem >> to be), then who owns all that debt? >> > > Anyone or anything that bought those bonds. Governments don't hold much of > the debt. It's mostly funds and individuals. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 01:28:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:28:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] good news Message-ID: Just messing around I put 'good news' in the search bar,and guess what? https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/scientists-map-the-moons-surface/ Those of you who like drugs will be impressed. I think I am going to like this site. A mood lightener. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 08:35:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 04:35:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 4:53 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> What it ultimately comes down to is they're borrowing against assumed > future tax revenue. Which, as I mentioned upthread, works excellently until > it suddenly doesn't,* > Nice theory but it just doesn't fit the facts. I've been hearing predictions of economic doom from deficit spending all my life, and so has my father. and so has my father's father, but the fact is except for the last 3 years of Bill Clinton's administration (which had a surplus) the US government has run a deficit *every single year* since 1835, and yet the USA still has the most powerful economy in the world. And no matter how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 12:31:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:31:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: India is not a country that usually springs to mind when you think of good hygiene practices but even India has handled the COVID-19 pandemic better than the USA has. Much better. India reported its first case of the virus about the same time the US did and its first death occurred just 2 weeks after the first in the US, but as of May 7 at 12:05 GMT India has only had 1,787 deaths, but the USA has had 74,810 deaths. And yet India's population is 3.9 times as large as the US population. And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 deaths, if Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had 368 deaths. I remind you that the US has had 74,810. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 12:52:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 05:52:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002801d6246e$665be7f0$3313b7d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 4:53 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > wrote: > What it ultimately comes down to is they're borrowing against assumed future tax revenue. Which, as I mentioned upthread, works excellently until it suddenly doesn't, >?Nice theory but it just doesn't fit the facts. I've been hearing predictions of economic doom from deficit spending all my life, and so has my father. and so has my father's father, but the fact is except for the last 3 years of Bill Clinton's administration (which had a surplus) the US government has run a deficit every single year since 1835, and yet the USA still has the most powerful economy in the world. And no matter how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned. John K Clark OK, assume the USA will never go broke because it never has. This is good news: the shutdown can last indefinitely. The economy never needs to re-open. Why are we paying taxes at all? Why not just borrow it all? Hey this is easy. Deficits really don?t matter. By the way? what happens when your theory fails? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 12:55:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 05:55:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002f01d6246e$c12617f0$437247d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 deaths, if Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had 368 deaths. I remind you that the US has had 74,810. John K Clark Neither of those countries have subways (trains I meant, not the sandwich shops.) John you can still probably get them to let you immigrate into Haiti. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:14:52 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:14:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John- This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific method when it suits your TDS. Do you honestly think the numbers coming out of India and Haiti have anything to do with them having a better national response to the virus than the US? Also, out of curiosity, are you still opposed to the Swedish approach? On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:34 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > India is not a country that usually springs to mind when you think of good > hygiene practices but even India has handled the COVID-19 pandemic better > than the USA has. Much better. India reported its first case of the virus > about the same time the US did and its first death occurred just 2 weeks > after the first in the US, but as of May 7 at 12:05 GMT India has only had > 1,787 deaths, but the USA has had 74,810 deaths. And yet India's population > is 3.9 times as large as the US population. > > And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the > entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 deaths, if > Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had 368 deaths. I > remind you that the US has had 74,810. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:20:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:20:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <002f01d6246e$c12617f0$437247d0$@rainier66.com> References: <002f01d6246e$c12617f0$437247d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Neither of those countries have subways (trains I meant, not the > sandwich shops.)* > A typical Indian Train John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:23:12 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:23:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] "Crap in the Gap" theories of consciousness (Was re: antiscience from both sides) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe you forgot the core of all the falsifiable ?crap in the gap? theories of consciousness: Example of right-wing anti-science: ? Qualia prove I have a ghost/spirit. Example of left-win anti-science: ? We don?t have qualia, it only seems like we do. Brent On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:50 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Examples of right-wing anti-science: > > 1. Creationism. > 2. Global warming denialism. > 3. Anti-environmentalism generally. > 4. Exaggerated claims about fetal development. > 5. Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and > sexually transmitted disease. > 6. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to > sex and gender. > 7. Pseudo-biological justifications for racism and sexism. > 8. Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science. That?s > a whole ?nother discussion. > > Examples of left-wing anti-science: > > 1. Anti-GMO hysteria. > 2. Opposition to nuclear power under any and all circumstances. > 3. Other extremes of environmentalism, with predictions of immediate > doom rather than slow long-term change. > 4. Opposition to space exploration: ?why are we spending money up > there when people are starving down here?? > > Examples of anti-science shared by both left and right: > > 1. Antivax. Started as a left-wing mania, and still more common in > liberal communities, but some of the most prominent advocates are > right-wing politicians, e.g. Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin. > 2. Abuse of statistics regarding crime issues, especially gun control. > Left- and right-wingers draw opposite conclusions from the same data, and > they both go to absurd extremes. Principled statisticians are left crying > in the wilderness. > 3. Suspicion of the enterprise of science: the idea that there are > giant cabals of scientists working in secret with no oversight and ?playing > God? or uncovering ?things we weren?t meant to know.? > 4. Closely related, the common cultural stereotypes of scientists as > arrogant, aloof, and out of touch with the lives of ?regular people.? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu May 7 13:29:51 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:29:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/05/2020 13:52, John K Clark wrote: > India is not a country that usually springs to mind when you think of > good hygiene practices but even India has handled the COVID-19 > pandemic better than the USA has. Much better. India reported its > first case of the virus about the same time the US did and its first > death occurred just 2 weeks after the first in the US, but as of May 7 > at 12:05 GMT India has only had 1,787 deaths, but the USA has had > 74,810 deaths. And yet India's population is 3.9 times as large as the > US population. > > And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the > entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 > deaths, if Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had > 368 deaths. I remind you that the US has had 74,810. Interesting. I can't help wondering if this has more to do with genetics than with different countries' responses? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:31:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:31:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote *> This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific > method when it suits your TDS.* > It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread and the outrage a post can provoke when a member infers a possible criticism of their savior even if His name is not specifically mentioned. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:47:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:47:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <002801d6246e$665be7f0$3313b7d0$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> <002801d6246e$665be7f0$3313b7d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > OK, assume the USA will never go broke because it never has. This is > good news: the shutdown can last indefinitely. > The shutdown can't last indefinitely but if necessary mass death can be postponed for a very long time, long enough for a vaccine to be found. Of course to do that the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% will have to be more heavily taxed, but Trump would prefer mass death. > *By the way? what happens when your theory fails?* That has happened many times in my life so I'll do exactly what I've always done, I'll look for a better theory. You really should give it a try, the Scientific Method works pretty well. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:49:28 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:49:28 -0600 Subject: [ExI] "Crap in the Gap" theories of consciousness (Was re: antiscience from both sides) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And if we'd stop being 'qualia blind', we could discover what it is, in our brain, that has an intrinsic redness quality, finally filling this gap in our understanding of perception of color. This would once and for all easily falsify all these crap in the gap theories. Let me know if our new socratic method test asking: "Are you Qualia Blind " helps with understanding what qualia blindness is. Brent On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:23 AM Brent Allsop wrote: > > I believe you forgot the core of all the falsifiable ?crap in the gap? > theories of consciousness: > > > > Example of right-wing anti-science: > > ? "Qualia prove I have a ghost/spirit." > > > > Example of left-wing anti-science: > > ? "We don?t have qualia, it only seems like we do" or "There is a > 'hard mind body' problem." > > Brent > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:50 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> >> Examples of right-wing anti-science: >> >> 1. Creationism. >> 2. Global warming denialism. >> 3. Anti-environmentalism generally. >> 4. Exaggerated claims about fetal development. >> 5. Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and >> sexually transmitted disease. >> 6. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain >> to sex and gender. >> 7. Pseudo-biological justifications for racism and sexism. >> 8. Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science. That?s >> a whole ?nother discussion. >> >> Examples of left-wing anti-science: >> >> 1. Anti-GMO hysteria. >> 2. Opposition to nuclear power under any and all circumstances. >> 3. Other extremes of environmentalism, with predictions of immediate >> doom rather than slow long-term change. >> 4. Opposition to space exploration: ?why are we spending money up >> there when people are starving down here?? >> >> Examples of anti-science shared by both left and right: >> >> 1. Antivax. Started as a left-wing mania, and still more common in >> liberal communities, but some of the most prominent advocates are >> right-wing politicians, e.g. Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin. >> 2. Abuse of statistics regarding crime issues, especially gun >> control. Left- and right-wingers draw opposite conclusions from the same >> data, and they both go to absurd extremes. Principled statisticians are >> left crying in the wilderness. >> 3. Suspicion of the enterprise of science: the idea that there are >> giant cabals of scientists working in secret with no oversight and ?playing >> God? or uncovering ?things we weren?t meant to know.? >> 4. Closely related, the common cultural stereotypes of scientists as >> arrogant, aloof, and out of touch with the lives of ?regular people.? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:52:25 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:52:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, it's got nothing to do with the Trump cult, it's got to do with the anti-Trump cult. Your distaste for the guy makes you unable to draw logical conclusions as to why India and Haiti have better numbers than the US. Why else would your take away be that the numbers reflect a superior response from two places that are very unlikely to have mounted one. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:46 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > *> This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific >> method when it suits your TDS.* >> > > It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread and the outrage a > post can provoke when a member infers a possible criticism of their savior > even if His name is not specifically mentioned. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:56:04 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:56:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell us you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports him, and I sure as hell don't. Question: what is the point of these posts from you? Are you looking to change minds? Get a response? You're just a dick? It doesn't seem like discussion is your goal, and that makes you, by definition, a TROLL. On Thu, May 7, 2020, 09:46 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > *> This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific >> method when it suits your TDS.* >> > > It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread and the outrage a > post can provoke when a member infers a possible criticism of their savior > even if His name is not specifically mentioned. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:59:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:59:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, smart guys. Consider this: the data coming from all the countries reporting has to be the worst data set anybody every worked with. I think it's totally useless. Are we imagining that all the countries are using the same standards of reporting? Do we think every station or whatever that could report is doing so? Do we think that China is not lying about the numbers in Wuhan? And on and on. I'll bet that you could find that any two places in America are doing things differently. When you read an experiment, you look closely at the Methods section: how did they obtain their data? Is this possible in any, much less all the countries reporting virus data? LOL ROF bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:47 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > *> This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific >> method when it suits your TDS.* >> > > It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread and the outrage a > post can provoke when a member infers a possible criticism of their savior > even if His name is not specifically mentioned. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 14:08:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:08:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401d62478$f2b5bb40$d82131c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote > This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the scientific method when it suits your TDS. >?It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread? John K Clark John you still haven?t figured out you are one of those helping spread that. But we have. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 14:09:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:09:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <002f01d6246e$c12617f0$437247d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d62479$20612b10$61238130$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Neither of those countries have subways (trains I meant, not the sandwich shops.) A typical Indian Train John K Clark There ya go. If New Yorkers would ride on top of the trains instead of inside them, they would be safer up there? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu May 7 14:24:15 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:24:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OR they are poor as shit and not testing, while attributing deaths to other causes. Have you seen Indian trains? Slums? Markets? People packed like sardines. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 7:31 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > India is not a country that usually springs to mind when you think of good hygiene practices but even India has handled the COVID-19 pandemic better than the USA has. Much better. India reported its first case of the virus about the same time the US did and its first death occurred just 2 weeks after the first in the US, but as of May 7 at 12:05 GMT India has only had 1,787 deaths, but the USA has had 74,810 deaths. And yet India's population is 3.9 times as large as the US population. > > And Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but in the entire population of 10.7 million people there has only been 12 deaths, if Haiti had the same population as the US it would have had 368 deaths. I remind you that the US has had 74,810. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu May 7 14:25:42 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:25:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> <002801d6246e$665be7f0$3313b7d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <648A4419-3F5D-438B-8E37-377B1C2D0DF0@gmail.com> You didn?t answer the important question: If borrowing doesn?t matter, why tax at all? SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 8:47 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > >> > OK, assume the USA will never go broke because it never has. This is good news: the shutdown can last indefinitely. >> > > The shutdown can't last indefinitely but if necessary mass death can be postponed for a very long time, long enough for a vaccine to be found. Of course to do that the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% will have to be more heavily taxed, but Trump would prefer mass death. > > > By the way? what happens when your theory fails? > > That has happened many times in my life so I'll do exactly what I've always done, I'll look for a better theory. You really should give it a try, the Scientific Method works pretty well. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 14:36:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 07:36:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004c01d6247c$d479e030$7d6da090$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >?logical conclusions as to why India and Haiti have better numbers than the US. Why else would your take away be that the numbers reflect a superior response from two places that are very unlikely to have mounted one? Dylan Hi Dylan, Sure, that would suggest that the best government response is none: Haiti isn?t doing anything (because it cannot) and has better numbers. But it also depends on how you count. It is unlikely that Haiti came up with the money for test kits. I can think of a pile of stuff Haiti needs a lot more than Covid test kits. There is still plenty of other things that can kill people in Haiti. In the USA, government response to Covid is primarily a state-level call. The worst states are New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Illinois and California. One can argue that it really isn?t a state-level call, for we have plenty of cases where people are going to closed beaches, local shops are declaring themselves essential and re-opening. I don?t see law enforcement doing anything about it. There aren?t enough state troopers, so? it is probably a city-level call. If so, New York City, Chicago, LA, Boston are the places where the big mistakes are being made. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 14:35:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 10:35:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:18 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell us > you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports > him,* > So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult but you're not angry at Dylan for saying I had Trump Derangement Syndrome. How does that work? And why didn't we see similar outrage when, as happened several times a week, somebody suggested Obama may be less than perfect back when he was president? > *that makes you, by definition, a TROLL.* Of course, nobody could sincerely believe Trump is an ignorant imbecile because it's so obvious he's knowledgeable and brilliant. John K Clark >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 15:41:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:41:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult ? John K Clark OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list is in the Trump cult, except you. You are the only one here who hasn?t joined us. Every one of us, even our European and Australian friends, all joined the Trump cult at one point or another, all of us, except you. You are all alone here, me lad, all alone. For the rest of us, we are all Trump cultist here, all. Come along with us John. Assimilate peacefully. We shall all be united. Resistance is futile. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:45:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:45:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > Interesting. I can't help wondering if this has more to do with > genetics than with different countries' responses?* > What about New Zealand? They have a population of 4.94 million and have had 21 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had 1,394 deaths. What about Iceland? They have a population of 364 thousand and have had 10 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had 9,010 deaths. What about South Korea? They have a population of 51.7 million and have had 256 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had 1,624 deaths. What about Taiwan? They have a population of 23.6 million and have had 6 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had 83 deaths. My figure on the number of deaths in the USA badly needs upgrading because it was made way back in the olden days of 3 hours ago, the old number was 74,810, the new number is 74,962 deaths. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:49:48 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:49:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:25 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:18 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell >> us you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports >> him,* >> > > So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult but you're > not angry at Dylan for saying I had Trump Derangement Syndrome. How does > that work? And why didn't we see similar outrage when, as happened several > times a week, somebody suggested Obama may be less than perfect back when > he was president? > No, because as much as I dislike the TDS nomenclature (because it's used as ammo by right-wingers) it seems to describe perfectly the way you act. > > > *that makes you, by definition, a TROLL.* > > > Of course, nobody could sincerely believe Trump is an ignorant imbecile > because it's so obvious he's knowledgeable and brilliant. > What? I don't get it. Are you saying your point of posting is to try and convince people Trump is an ignorant imbecile? If so, you WERE talking about Trump, even though you attacked Dylan and denied it. I thought the post was supposed to be about COVID. My point still stands: your post was pointless and designed only to rile, which makes you a troll. Out of all the posters on this list, your behavior is by FAR the closest to Trump's. You are a bully, and a troll who ignores people's arguments only to insult them. You yell and shout and lie and equivocate and spew ad-hominem attacks. I can only imagine you hate Trump so much because you are working out personal flaws you dislike within yourself. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:52:46 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:52:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is > running. Do you? > The US has been one of the most right-wing in the first world for a long, long time. We are an extremely conservative country compared to many. It's one of the reasons I think a coup by Trump would be so difficult for him to make work. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:53:58 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:53:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > > > >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been > for a very long time? Dylan > > > > Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two > mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a > morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. > > > > In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, > immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. > I think student debt is the next bubble to burst. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 7 15:55:13 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:55:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Oh dear, no no no! Not ASC ! No no no no no. Nope. Nooooooo. I agree about repair of current crypreserved patients needing Drexler-style nanotech (which might as well be magic at the moment, which I alluded to in my prior post). I think the way forward will be in the design of non-toxic cryoprotectants applied in a homogeneously cooled manner, at a temperature far higher than that of liquid nitrogen. Potentially, that solves the problems of toxicity, fracturing, dehydration, and obviates the need for extensive (and potentially noisy) nanotech repairs. Right now that proposal might seem a sort of magic too, but not quite, as such non-toxic cryoprotectants are on the drawing board even as you read this, as well as possible methods for homogeneous cooling. So hope is out there! But the use of ASC is the exact opposite of preservation of the entire body, it is a technology focused on uploading, which I do not believe will work if the goal is reanimating the same person who went in. Consider that the amount of information needed to be read from the upload (using unknown methods at the moment) has been estimated to take hundreds of years just to read, with no idea how to deconvolute the data. I hear you say, machine learning can do that - but it would have to be unsupervised *if* neural codes vary from person to person, which is unclear at the moment. I think they do vary for sure at the cortical level, (and probably not in the cerebellum, but who cares?) but I haven't proved it so that's simply my opinion. But worse - ASC is complete brain destruction, leaving you reliant on a clean reading of the data within that brain. And while we can map the geography of the connectome clearly from an ASC preserved brain (if we can Eye-Wire all the neurons! And glia....) we can't read the chemical states, plus we lose all the dynamics of the smaller dendritic spines. The chemical states include both the ionic state of each neuron, plus the pattern of neurotransmitter concentrations. That information is all lost. Forever. So, I say a huge *ACK!* to aldehyde stabilized cryopreservation, beautiful as it is. It's a great tool to stabilize the tissue and to study the connectome, no question. Brilliant. But if you ever want to be "you" again - keep your brain intact !!! As per your comment re: hormonal cycles, yes. I think it may be impossible to model a system that has inherent chaotic components. Thats why I want to keep my entire body, and not be uploaded. I don't think an uploaded copy of my brain pattern in any way will or ever can be "me". The slow-replacement theory isn't persuasive, as each component acclimates to the surroundings slowly which I think is ok. That's not a massive uploading event. The thought-experiment I trust the most, which is against uploading, is the one where you consider uploading a copy made before you are dead into a new body. If you aren't "in" that new agent animated by your copy (since you're still alive) -- well, how will you ever be able to be "in" that or any other copy ? IMHO, you can't. Not ever. A copy is a copy. Fun and maybe comforting for your surviving friends and family, and to be sure it is an agent in its own right - its just not you. --Regina ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 09:33:34 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 6:49 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I think fractures are undesirable, and although they may seem easy to > repair if they're "clean" - even so, that's a lot of repairing.* > Sure, any damage is undesirable but the sad fact is even if a patient is cryopreserved using the best methods available today a huge amount of damage will be caused and a massive amount of repairing (or replacing) will be needed to bring the person back to consciousness. And cracks are by far the least serious form of damage because it is the easiest to fix or replace, if you can't fix cracks then you have no hope of fixing the far more serious forms of damage. I don't think any Cryonics patient will be revived until we have Drexler style Nanotechnology and can control matter at the atomic level. The key question is if Information Theoretic Death has occurred, if the information on what makes you be you is lost then you're dead. That's why I think Alcor should switch from the vitrification process it uses now to ASC (Aldehyde Stabilized Cryopreservation). In ASC in addition to a cryoprotectant a brain is also infused with the chemical Glutaraldehyde, it's the stuff in wart removing lotion you can get over the counter in any drugstore. Glutaraldehyde kills cells because it crosslinks proteins, but that very cross-linking holds things in place even when they're cooled down to liquid nitrogen temperatures, and so Information Theoretic Death is avoided. ASC has been used on a entire pig's brain which was then cooled down to near liquid nitrogen temperatures and then warmed back up to room temperature and sliced into thin sections and sent to a electron microscope. The result was beautiful pictures of synapses and other brain structures that are far superior to the pictures Alcor's current vitrification process can produce, and there is no reason to think molecular-level information wouldn't be preserved too. It's even more impressive when you consider that the pictures were made after rewarming because most of the damage happens at the warming stage not the cooling stage, I would have been delighted even if the pictures were made while the brain was still frozen because I'd be willing to let future technology worry about warming, but this is even better. Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won < https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders-the-brain-preservation-prize-has-been-won-cebbe98c241a > Nevertheless Alcor has resisted changing over to ASC, I suspect the reason for their hesitation is that if they did so they would implicitly be saying "*we're not even trying to bring that frozen body back to life, we're just trying to preserve the information in it because information on how the atoms are arranged in my brain are different from the way they are arranged in your brain is the only difference between you and me*". I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but the ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is still haunting the 21th century and many still think that despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary the atoms in our bodies must somehow have our name scratched on them. I suspect Alcor is reluctant to change because they believe ASC would be bad public relations. But I think reality is more important than PR and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > > *Guided nanotech may be an answer* > I don't think there is any "may" about it, without Nanotech there is no hope. Incidentally back in 1986 in Drexler's classic book on Nanotechnology "Engines Of Creation" he describes something very similar to ASC that people alive today could use right now to achieve immortality, or something close to it. > > *My concern about hormone simulation is not about the speed of their > signalling, but the entraining and dynamics of the entire system. While > some hormones are easy to model (like insulin), many interact widely in > nertworked hormonal systems, like growth hormones, stress hormones, or > female reproductive hotmoens. These hormonal feedback cycles interact not > only with the body but also with the brain/mind.* > If future technology is not good enough to model hormonal feedback cycles then it certainly isn't good enough to repair or replace the 100 trillion damaged synapses in the human brain and there is no hope, Cryonics patients are not patients at all they're just frozen dead meat. > *> even if the brain copy + agent manages to eventually make sense of the > world with all these changes and becomes an autonomous agent itself - it > will not be "you".* > People, even philosophers, use that personal pronoun with abandon without giving it a second thought, I do too because right now there is only one chunk of matter in the observable universe that behaves in a johnkclarkian way. But that need not always be true because it is caused not by a scientific law but simply because of a lack of technological sophistication. When the age of Nanotechnology arrives the entire English language will need retooling, especially in the way it treats personal pronouns. The only reason I think I'm the same guy I was yesterday is that I remember being John Clark yesterday, the same thing will be true even in the age of Nanotechnology, although there could be many people claiming to be John Clark because they all remember being him yesterday. And all of them would be correct and have a equally valid claim of being "me". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:58:26 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:58:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Trump is an ignorant imbecile. But he's not the reason that large cities with Democrat leadership are having really bad COVID outcomes. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:26 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:18 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell >> us you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports >> him,* >> > > So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult but you're > not angry at Dylan for saying I had Trump Derangement Syndrome. How does > that work? And why didn't we see similar outrage when, as happened several > times a week, somebody suggested Obama may be less than perfect back when > he was president? > > > *that makes you, by definition, a TROLL.* > > > Of course, nobody could sincerely believe Trump is an ignorant imbecile > because it's so obvious he's knowledgeable and brilliant. > > John K Clark > > > > >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 15:59:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 08:59:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > wrote: > Interesting. I can't help wondering if this has more to do with genetics than with different countries' responses? Hi Ben, someone should try to plot per capita caseload against per capita international travelers. Haiti doesn?t have many of those. The US has a lot of them. That might end up being one of the best predictors of case load we can get. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:59:51 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:59:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list is > in the Trump cult, except you. * > OK Spike, I will come clean. You caught me. Nobody on this list has Trump Derangement Syndrome except for me. And I'm a Troll too and operate a covert false flag operation because nobody could sincerely believe Trump was as dumb as dogshit when it's so obvious he's very sharp. As sharp as a beach ball. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 16:08:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:08:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e801d62489$be947c50$3bbd74f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:25 AM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:18 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > wrote: > Oh come on John, we all know what you're saying. Do you mean to tell us you weren't talking about Trump at all? I don't believe Dylan supports him, So you're angry at me for saying Dylan was in the Trump Cult? John >?No, because as much as I dislike the TDS nomenclature (because it's used as ammo by right-wingers) it seems to describe perfectly the way you act? Will You are all alone here John. The rest of us, and all of America, all of the rest of the world, have joined the cult. You are the last known non-cultist. Come along with us John. Resistance is futile. Assimilate peacefully. And the world will live as one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:13:50 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:13:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about? Yeah. what about reading my post? These data are way beyond suspect, and, I think, useless. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:51 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > * > Interesting. I can't help wondering if this has more to do with >> genetics than with different countries' responses?* >> > > What about New Zealand? They have a population of 4.94 million and have > had 21 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have > only had 1,394 deaths. > > What about Iceland? They have a population of 364 thousand and have had 10 > deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had > 9,010 deaths. > > What about South Korea? They have a population of 51.7 million and have > had 256 deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have > only had 1,624 deaths. > > What about Taiwan? They have a population of 23.6 million and have had 6 > deaths, if they had the same population as the USA they would have only had > 83 deaths. > > My figure on the number of deaths in the USA badly needs upgrading because > it was made way back in the olden days of 3 hours ago, the old number was > 74,810, the new number is 74,962 deaths. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:14:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:14:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:59 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> What? I don't get it. Are you saying your point of posting is to try > and convince people Trump is an ignorant imbecile? If so, you WERE talking > about Trump, * Well Duh! > *and spew ad-hominem attacks* Boy, I'm sure glad you never do anything like that! > *You are a bully, and a troll* [...] *You yell and shout and lie* [...] *you > are working out personal flaws you dislike within yourself* You hurt my feelings you big bad intellectual bully, I'm going to go to bed and cry myself to sleep. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:16:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:16:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't know who wrote that, but I didn't. We are certainly, among all nations, among the most conservative sexually, as I posted before. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:08 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 11:28 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I don?t see anything a bit right wing about how the US government is >> running. Do you? >> > > The US has been one of the most right-wing in the first world for a long, > long time. We are an extremely conservative country compared to many. > It's one of the reasons I think a coup by Trump would be so difficult for > him to make work. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:22:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:22:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:45 AM John Clark wrote: > My figure on the number of deaths in the USA badly needs upgrading > because it was made way back in the olden days of 3 hours ago, the old > number was 74,810, the new number is 74,962 deaths. > And that number is also wrong because its 33 minutes old, the new figure is 75,490 deaths. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:23:45 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:23:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, it needs to be burst, and the federal backstop on student loans needs to be removed. Between the pressure on universities from CV-19 and removing the federal loan backstop, you would see tuition prices drop in a hurry. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:15 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> >> >> >> >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been >> for a very long time? Dylan >> >> >> >> Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two >> mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a >> morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. >> >> >> >> In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, >> immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. >> > > I think student debt is the next bubble to burst. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:24:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:24:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Student debt is just crazy. Lesser countries offer free education to all. Here a medical doctor can start his practice hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. No wonder he or she doesn't want to go the Mississippi Delta, for instance. No big money there. Excuse all the debt and lower the costs of education. (Yes, I know. Lawmakers will be flooded with lobbyists representing universities etc.) Do lobbyists run this country? New thread? bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:16 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> >> >> >> >?In terms of spending, both parties are now very similar and have been >> for a very long time? Dylan >> >> >> >> Ja. I haven?t been able to tell them apart for over 30 years. The two >> mainstream parties in the US have marched lockstep to burying the US into a >> morass of debt from which extrication is impossible. >> >> >> >> In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, >> immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb. >> > > I think student debt is the next bubble to burst. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 7 16:24:30 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:24:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: To Darin, I think these are interesting legal points, as I would not want to be battling with a slew of uploads as to who gets to live my life and who gets to be my slave - or die. To John, I think you've gotten to technological magic, and I do not believe in any case that we either live in a simulation or that we would be happy in one. I don't think a simulation will ever get creative enough to be human (ok, don't talk to me about Alpha GO. I can take either side of that argument, but overall I think this side has more logical points). We've come a long way since ELISA, by now we have all seen algorithms that find unexpected and innovative solutions, like the chatbots who designed their own language, or the machines self-playing old Atari games that found ways to get superhuman scores by twisting the rules of the game. But even in those cases you can see the innovation came from non-human computer abilities, like iterative speed; or by setting unrealistic goal states. In any case I do not care to come back in a simulation or game, to me that would be the antithesis of being human~ To Ben, if he or anyone else is actually reading this far down, that's an interesting idea, that the agent body would accomodate to the brain. I like it! However - its calling on technology that is not defined in any way, so I have to call it out as magic too at the moment. Unknown if its possible, or if a newly uploaded brain would have any ability to direct the design of an agent body. I've seen Hod Lifson's "spidery robot" and that thing is unable to map its body very well at all, and, well....I'd just rather not walk like that :) I stand by my hormone objection, as I think it would be difficult to re-entrain all the hormone cycles in a person. While jet lag, hunger (insulin) cycles, etc are simple and easily re-entrained, many others are not (PCOS, mood disorders, some infertility, and estrogen dominant migraine are a few that come to mind easily, there are others), and we can't forget that the hormone cycles interact - another level of feedback. Reproduction of chaotic systems is notoriously difficult as they are STIC (sensitive to initial conditions). AFAIK that problem has not been solved except by mapping the system grossly into stable regimes, and finding ways to force a system from one regime to another, which has been a difficult class of engineering problems to solve. Perhaps when we can do that for people with migraines or PCOS or similar, we can reconsider this issue in the light of reanimation. best Regina ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 13:43:20 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:58 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *>Which copy wins the philosophical claim of "being" "me" doesn't worry me.* > Me neither. As far as I'm concerned the more people that remember being me right now the better. > *Which one wins the legal claims of "gets to lock the other copies of me > out of the house I'm living in now", "gets to continue the relationship I > have with my employer right now",* > When technology becomes advanced enough to duplicate something as advanced as a human then they can duplicate anything, even land because you'll almost certainly be a upload living in a virtual world (if the kind people who took the time to revive you know you'd be upset by that knowledge they just won't tell you), and that means economic questions that we think are so important today would be pretty much moot. I'm not saying a revived Cryonics patient won't have problems adjusting, but none of the problems will be as severe as the problem of nonexistence. And that's why I'm signed up for Cryonics, I'll deal with the problems. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:21:32 +0100 From: Ben Zaiboc To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 05/05/2020 17:56, Re Rose wrote: > don't think this will solve the essential problem. I think any upload > is problematic. I believe there are two problems that will be really > hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical environment of > non-neural information available in the body such as hormonal cycles > or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from your gut) > is difficult, with no solution on the horizon. Second, your cortex is > specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, > balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every human body is > different and each body's cortex learns the characteristics of that > body. While we know the cortex is nearly infinitely able to accomodate > and learn, learning an entirely new corporeal system may not only > overwhelm it, but the being that emerges after this process is highly > likely to?not be "you". I think the clue here is in "your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics". If the cortex is uploaded successfully, then the upload will contain all the information needed to reproduce these 'quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics'. The emulated body would take this information, and reproduce the environment that the cortex expects. A bit like a mould, it doesn't matter if you have a positive or a negative impression, you have the same information, and can produce the opposite piece. As for the cyclic, dynamical environment, I don't see how that would be a problem. I've suffered from severe jet-lag before, it didn't make me a different person, and I soon recovered from it. And as we are all basically the same, the detailed differences wouldn't be significant. Certainly not as significant as you are saying, so as to make you a different person. "PS - what would be *really* nice is to save an uploaded copy of the brain along with the crypreserved?body so that any damage to the information in the brain due to the cryopreservation process can be repaired using the upload as a backup. You would have your original body, complete with all its information, plus a brain backup for repair of any neuronal information loss. Yay! Sign me up, please -R" I don't understand this. If you already had an uploaded copy of the brain, there would be no point in having a cryopreserved original. There would be no point in the cryopreservation in the first place, if we could create the upload without it. The point of cryopreservation is that we can't upload brains yet, so it's a way of preserving the information until we can. Once we can upload wet brains, no-one would bother with cryopreservation (assuming the upload process wouldn't destroy the brain, which it probably would). -- Ben Zaiboc ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 16:27:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:27:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010001d6248c$5d32ccc0$17986640$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: In light of that, why would we care about the usual stuff, religion, immigration, guns and abortion? That soaring debt is a ticking time bomb? spike >?I think student debt is the next bubble to burst? I agree, Will. A lot of those loans are unsecured, used to finance plenty of worthless degrees. What happens if it becomes in vogue to default on the student loans? Who is left holding the bag? Will it change the rules on who gets student loans in the future? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 16:56:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 09:56:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013a01d62490$6a386660$3ea93320$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat ? > OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list is in the Trump cult, except you. >?OK Spike, I will come clean. You caught me. Nobody on this list has Trump Derangement Syndrome except for me. ? John K Clark It isn?t too late. Join us John. You are all alone here. Assimilate peacefully. And the world will live as one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:59:35 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:59:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes, most of the examples John gave were islands (with SK essentially one since NK cuts them off at the end of the peninsula. The Asian examples also have prior experience with SARS in terms of contact tracing and masks. There has also been no talk of racial/age demographics and how many people in those populations have one or more comorbidities compared to the US. The US and Europe also allowed in tons of people from China which the CCP was happy to allow out of country and also spread propaganda like their Italian video pleading with people to go hug a Chinese person. Rather than do any detailed analysis, it's easier to just fall back on the "Orangeman bad" method of analysis. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **Interesting.* *I can't help wondering if this has more to do with > genetics than with different countries' responses?* > > > > > > Hi Ben, someone should try to plot per capita caseload against per capita > international travelers. Haiti doesn?t have many of those. The US has a > lot of them. That might end up being one of the best predictors of case > load we can get. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 17:22:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 10:22:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?But he's not the reason that large cities with Democrat leadership are having really bad COVID outcomes? Darin Hi Darin, if one makes any negative comment about Trump and follows it with any sentence which contains the word ?but? then you have already assimilated. John you are the last one left, the last one. All alone. Join our cult. Resistance is futile. Darin what we need are studies with case load as a function of some factor which has promise of correlations, such as population density, reliance on mass transit (riding on top of a train doesn?t count (that?s an open-air environment (we have zero known cases where anyone on the back of a motorcycle or snowmobile with a Covid positive driver caught it that way.))) We may learn that this virus doesn?t know or care what form of government is in charge. It spreads best where there are a lot of humans in small confined spaces, such as one might find in high-rise apartments in big cities, particularly ones with crowded subways, where riding on top is not an option. I don?t know how to get data to make such comparisons, but I suppose we could do it by county. We do have those numbers. Let?s take the top five counties from the Johns Hopkins site (ja I know, ancient history, those numbers are 23 minutes ago) but it is the best we have. OK then, the top five counties in the Johns Hopkins site: cases deaths p/mi^2 population cases per capita deaths per capita cases-mi^2/person deaths-mi^2/person Queens 53692 4213 12556 2235370 0.02401929 0.001884699 1.91297E-06 1.50103E-07 Cook 46689 2004 3200 5150000 0.009065825 0.000389126 2.83307E-06 1.21602E-07 Kings 46139 4194 72918 2560000 0.018023047 0.001638281 2.47169E-07 2.24674E-08 Bronx 39587 3046 24198 1392000 0.028438937 0.002188218 1.17526E-06 9.04297E-08 Naussau 37350 1891 2958 1341500 0.027841968 0.001409616 9.41243E-06 4.76544E-07 Suffolk 35543 1522 630 1493350 0.02380085 0.001019185 3.77791E-05 1.61775E-06 Dang, now I realize why this is so hard to compare: these population densities are wacky: they contain huge metro areas plus a lot of unpopulated land area. OK damn, that wasn?t very informative, because it compares apples and oranges. Which brings up the real question: why the heck not compare apples and oranges? They are different, why not compare those two? The next thing is that these critical areas all have mass transit hauling people way out there. We need to think of some kind of metric to compare dense population areas to sparse ones. We may find out that government response is nearly irrelevant. Population density is what really matters. We need to look at this from the virus? point of view. Which party do most Covid viruses follow? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 17:38:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 13:38:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting updated US numbers here? Even if we suppose the IFR is close to the flu, there are still unfortunately going to be some deaths here. Although you'll probably again label me a Trump supporter, I'd also point out that US hospitals are incentivized financially to report CV-19 deaths instead of other causes. NY is particularly incentivized under their reporting system: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/ On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:33 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:45 AM John Clark wrote: > > > My figure on the number of deaths in the USA badly needs upgrading >> because it was made way back in the olden days of 3 hours ago, the old >> number was 74,810, the new number is 74,962 deaths. >> > > And that number is also wrong because its 33 minutes old, the new figure > is 75,490 deaths. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 17:58:14 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 13:58:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020, 12:48 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> *> OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list is >> in the Trump cult, except you. * >> > > OK Spike, I will come clean. You caught me. Nobody on this list has Trump > Derangement Syndrome except for me. And I'm a Troll too and operate a > covert false flag operation because nobody could sincerely believe Trump > was as dumb as dogshit when it's so obvious he's very sharp. As sharp as > a beach ball. > I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even Rafal, who is comically right wing, I have never seen call Trump smart. I think we are smart here and that we have too much pride to call a dumb man smart. Trump is clearly good at some sort of manipulation and weaseling, so I would say he may have a kind of practical intelligence. But nobody here calls him smart. I would reckon that the people here who even voted for him could be counted on one hand (I did not and will not vote for him.) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 18:06:42 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:06:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <010001d6248c$5d32ccc0$17986640$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <010001d6248c$5d32ccc0$17986640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > What happens if it becomes in vogue to default on the student loans? Who > is left holding the bag? Will it change the rules on who gets student > loans in the future? > > > > spike > > We (US taxpayers) will be left holding the bag, not the banks who are happy to collect their fees with no risk. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 18:18:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:18:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c801d6249b$f6407ac0$e2c17040$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides >>? I think student debt is the next bubble to burst? Will >?Unfortunately, it needs to be burst, and the federal backstop on student loans needs to be removed. Between the pressure on universities from CV-19 and removing the federal loan backstop, you would see tuition prices drop in a hurry? Dylan Think of all the opportunities we are now seeing for doing education waaaay the heck cheaper than has been done before. The online learning has proven highly effective for some students, and doesn?t cost much of anything. Another take on it: a large and growing cost associated with schools is the legal liability. With online learning, that goes away. Most of the facilities cost goes away. Consider Khan Academy, oh excellent resource, free to all comers, runs on donations. Think of the cost/benefit of that. If we have an effective way to measure students? progress, we wouldn?t really need traditional campuses. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 18:28:20 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:28:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Wait spike are you joking about not catching it on top of a train? Confined spaces don't have to be inside. Close proximity should be enough for transfer whether you are inside the train or on top of it. But I couldn't tell if you were being facetious or not -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 18:31:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:31:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01e301d6249d$bd9c4990$38d4dcb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat >?To Ben, if he or anyone else is actually reading this far down, that's an interesting idea, that the agent body would accomodate to the brain. I like it! ? best Regina ------------------------------ Regina of course we are reading all your commentary. You come across as a very pleasant young lady who thinks through her writing. Please continue your valued contribution to our online community, me lass. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 18:41:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:41:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?Yes, most of the examples John gave were islands (with SK essentially one since NK cuts them off at the end of the peninsula. The Asian examples also have prior experience with SARS in terms of contact tracing and masks. There has also been no talk of racial/age demographics and how many people in those populations have one or more comorbidities compared to the US. The US and Europe also allowed in tons of people from China which the CCP was happy to allow out of country and also spread propaganda like their Italian video pleading with people to go hug a Chinese person? Hi Dylan, recall how much of an uproar it caused in Britain when someone high up commented that ultimately it would all come down to herd immunity, just as it had with SARS and H1N1. The argument against that notion was that we needed some kind of delaying action until we had a vaccine. However? we might never get one. As far as I know there are still no vaccines against SARS and H1N1. If otherwise, please inform. We have no guarantee this one will get a vaccine either. Somehow we need to calculate how much international travel takes place. That is an important number. >?Rather than do any detailed analysis, it's easier to just fall back on the "Orangeman bad" method of analysis? There is that, but I am suspecting that this virus belongs to some weird third party completely focused on some issue that none of the others follow, such as the No-Bat party, which holds that bats are filthy creatures, fit only for extinction. From the virus? POV, all the mainstream and secondary parties are indistinguishable. They don?t know or care which party is in charge. They only want to find and slay bats. They see humans as a vector or opportunity to reproduce so they can kill more bats. Wouldn?t that theory fit all the observations? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 18:52:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:52:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even Rafal, who is comically right wing, I have never seen call Trump smart. I think we are smart here and that we have too much pride to call a dumb man smart? Hi Will, Being a hardcore third party guy, my perspective may be limited value, but take it for what it is worth. I am finding most entertaining how similar are the two guys who will run against each other in November. Other than skin color, I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 18:55:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:55:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:23 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I agree about repair of current crypreserved patients needing > Drexler-style nanotech (which might as well be magic at the moment,* > No. Traveling into the past and Faster Than Light Travel and Perpetual Motion Machines are magic, but Drexler's Machines don't need new physics or better science, they just need more advanced engineering, more specifically smaller fingers. * > which I alluded to in my prior post). I think the way forward will be > in the design of non-toxic cryoprotectants applied in a homogeneously > cooled manner, at a temperature far higher than that of liquid nitrogen.* > It's cheap to store things at -196 degrees Celsius, because that's the temperature of liquid Nitrogen which is only about as expensive as milk. It's very reliable too because such refrigeration requires no moving parts. But if you wanted to avoid cracking you'd have to store brains at -125 degrees Celsius and there is just no simple way to do that without much more complications and lots more ways things could break down and go disastrously wrong. It's just not worth taking that risk to avoid a minor problem like cracking, not to mention it would be much more expensive. > *> But the use of ASC is the exact opposite of preservation of the entire > body, it is a technology focused on uploading,* > It could also be used to make a identical biological brain, I very much doubt that will happen because it would be silly to put a person in such obsolete hardware, but there is no technological reason it couldn't be done. > which I do not believe will work if the goal is reanimating the same > person who went in. > Why not? You don't think the atoms in your body are fundamentally different from the atoms in my body do you? > *Consider that the amount of information needed to be read from the > upload (using unknown methods at the moment) has been estimated to take > hundreds of years just to read,* > The human brain has about 86 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses; and I found a 10 trillion byte USB 3.0 disk drive for $182. By next year it will be cheaper: Seagate Expansion 10TB USB 3.0 hard drive So with 10 of these you'd get 100 trillion bytes and it would cost less than 2 grand. And it doesn't even need Nanotechnology. It would take USB 3.0 about 7 hours to transfer 10 trillion bytes of information not hundreds of years. And by the age of Nanotechnology I have a hunch we'll have something a tad better than USB 3.0. > *with no idea how to deconvolute the data * If you understand how the human brain works that would be very nice but it's not necessary to revive a Cryonics patient, all you need to know is what atom is suposed to go where. > > *But worse - ASC is complete brain destruction,* > But it's not complete mind destruction as long as the information in that brain has been saved, that's why a computer disk drive crash is not an utter disaster if you have a backup copy. > *we can map the geography of the connectome clearly from an ASC preserved > brain (if we can Eye-Wire all the neurons! And glia....) we can't read the > chemical states, plus we lose all the dynamics of the smaller dendritic > spines.* > Why can't we read them? Chemical states and dendritic spines are made of atoms just like everything else. *> The chemical states include both the ionic state of each neuron, plus > the pattern of neurotransmitter concentrations. That information is all > lost. Forever.* > If all that stuff is important and if for some mysterious reason we can't read it then all forms of Cryonics is hopeless because any form of freezing is going to distort things and it you can't read something you can't repair (or replace) it. *> So, I say a huge *ACK!* to aldehyde stabilized cryopreservation, > beautiful as it is. It's a great tool to stabilize the tissue and to study > the connectome, no question. Brilliant. But if you ever want to be "you" > again - keep your brain intact !!!* > Yes, and electron microscopes show clear as a bell that ASC keeps a brain intact much better than the vitrification process Alcor uses today. > *> As per your comment re: hormonal cycles, yes. I think it may be > impossible to model a system that has inherent chaotic components.* > A double pendulum is a chaotic system but you can play around with a computer model of it just by moving your cursor, and there are plenty of other chaotic systems on the same site: My Physics Lab > *> The slow-replacement theory isn't persuasive, as each component > acclimates to the surroundings slowly which I think is ok. That's not a > massive uploading event.* > I don't know what that means. > *> The thought-experiment I trust the most, which is against uploading, > is the one where you consider uploading a copy made before you are dead > into a new body.* > I don't like that either because the thing I dislike about death is having a last thought, and in that scenario I would still have one. I would only be satisfied if my uploaded copy were made right NOW. How long is "now"? Long enough to have a thought, about a second, maybe two. > *A copy is a copy. Fun and maybe comforting for your surviving friends > and family, and to be sure it is an agent in its own right - its just not > you. * > And if you found out that last night after you went to speed somebody made a copy of you and then destroyed the original would you feel that you were not you, and if so did you feel that way before you found out what had happened? Or suppose the perpetrator got confused and destroyed one but now he isn't sure if it was the copy or the original he destroyed, would you care? I wouldn't. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:03:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 15:03:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting > updated US numbers here? * > Dylan, a serious question, what is the point of constantly complaining about updated US death numbers here? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:09:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:09:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! Please help me in my frustrating ongling war against redundancies. "Proximity' means 'closeness'. 'Close proximity' is redundant, the equivalent of saying 'close closeness'. Please??? "Share in common' in another one. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Wait spike are you joking about not catching it on top of a train? > Confined spaces don't have to be inside. Close proximity should be enough > for transfer whether you are inside the train or on top of it. But I > couldn't tell if you were being facetious or not > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 19:13:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:13:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002301d624a3$8e7c2c60$ab748520$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Wait spike are you joking about not catching it on top of a train? Confined spaces don't have to be inside. Close proximity should be enough for transfer whether you are inside the train or on top of it. But I couldn't tell if you were being facetious or not? Will We don?t really know. I have heard the riskiest thing is a small indoor space with a lot of people, because a sneeze can hang in the air for a long time. The outdoors describes a big space. If someone sneezes near me I would far rather it be outside than in. Given that observation, it would be safer to travel on top of a train than inside one. Do you know of cases where the only contact was outdoors? An example would be someone who lives alone in a single-family house, gets supplies delivered, and walks with others but only outside. Or anyone catching the virus at the beach? Do we have any examples of transmission under those conditions? Do we have any cases of transmission to motorcycle or snowmobile back-seaters? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:32:06 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:32:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? spike Well, one is a combover. One excelled at doing nothing as Vice President. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > > > I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even > Rafal, who is comically right wing, I have never seen call Trump smart. I > think we are smart here and that we have too much pride to call a dumb man > smart? > > > > Hi Will, > > > > Being a hardcore third party guy, my perspective may be limited value, but > take it for what it is worth. I am finding most entertaining how similar > are the two guys who will run against each other in November. Other than > skin color, I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 19:42:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 12:42:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005f01d624a7$9bd95be0$d38c13a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: > John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting updated US numbers here? Dylan, a serious question, what is the point of constantly complaining about updated US death numbers here? John K Clark John, it is offensive because it feels as if you are celebrating those deaths, hoping to leverage them to political advantage. You are all alone here, John. You are the only one left, all alone. The rest of us have all joined the cult, all of us, and the rest of the world too. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:41:50 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 15:41:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dunno, I guess I don't see what purpose they serve or what they have to do with transhumanism or even what value they add to a discussion of the current CV-19 outbreak. I'm pretty sure most people on here are following the global numbers on their own. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:34 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting >> updated US numbers here? * >> > > Dylan, a serious question, what is the point of constantly complaining > about updated US death numbers here? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:44:44 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 13:44:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The funny thing is that, like Bush II before him, Trump had a long career in the public eye long before he became President. And during those careers, prior to them entering the White House, not one of their enemies (and both of them had many) ever credibly called them stupid. "Corrupt", yes. "Venal", yes. Even "rude" and "uncouth". But never "stupid". It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're elected President. I wonder why that is? On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > > > I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even > Rafal, who is comically right wing, I have never seen call Trump smart. I > think we are smart here and that we have too much pride to call a dumb man > smart? > > > > Hi Will, > > > > Being a hardcore third party guy, my perspective may be limited value, but > take it for what it is worth. I am finding most entertaining how similar > are the two guys who will run against each other in November. Other than > skin color, I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 7 20:01:43 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 16:01:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020, 15:42 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! > > Please help me in my frustrating ongling war against redundancies. > "Proximity' means 'closeness'. 'Close proximity' is redundant, the > equivalent of saying 'close closeness'. Please??? "Share in common' in > another one. bill w > I don't think it's totally redundant. Proximity could mean people within a few feet, whereas close proximity would mean right up next to each other. 'Near' vs 'very near'. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 20:07:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 13:07:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008f01d624ab$13aeaaf0$3b0c00d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better I can scarcely distinguish between the two. Can you? How? spike Well, one is a combover. One excelled at doing nothing as Vice President. bill w On the contrary sir. One is an epic-fail fashion statement, the other served as personnel director for the Ukraine government in 2016. But other than that, ideologically I can scarcely distinguish the two. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 21:25:50 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:25:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:\ * > As far as I know there are still no vaccines against SARS and H1N1. If > otherwise, please inform. * > H1N1 is the Swine Flu and there is a vaccine for it, several in fact: Swine flu pandemic vaccine There have been no new cases of SARS since 2004 so there is little interest or effort in developing a vaccine. > *ultimately it would all come down to herd immunity,* As for COVID-19 herd immunity almost nothing is known for sure about it. Nobody knows how long it will last and nobody knows what percentage of the population have to get the disease recover and get immune for it to kick in, estimates range from 29% to 74%. Even with the lower figure millions would have to die and tens of millions would become very sick, and for all we know we might have to go through the same thing all over again next year or the year after. But I'm optimistic we'll have a vaccine before then, especially when you consider the massive effort being put into it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 21:41:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:41:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via >?As for COVID-19 herd immunity almost nothing is known ?and for all we know we might have to go through the same thing all over again next year or the year after. But I'm optimistic we'll have a vaccine before then?John K Clark Sure, I am cool with optimism. But what if the optimistic view is wrong and the economy is permanently depressed to half what it is now? What happens to all that borrowing, which is now all we can do to service, with the government doing almost nothing else but struggling to collect enough tax to service all that debt we so casually took on when money was easy? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:10:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:10:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:22 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020, 15:42 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! >> >> Please help me in my frustrating ongling war against redundancies. >> "Proximity' means 'closeness'. 'Close proximity' is redundant, the >> equivalent of saying 'close closeness'. Please??? "Share in common' in >> another one. bill w >> > > I don't think it's totally redundant. Proximity could mean people within > a few feet, whereas close proximity would mean right up next to each other. > 'Near' vs 'very near'. > So then, are you going to use 'medium proximity'? How about 'far proximity'? ?? I would certainly vote for 'near' and 'very near' as far better alternatives. billw > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:18:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 18:18:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>?As for COVID-19 herd immunity almost nothing is known ?and for all we >> know we might have to go through the same thing all over again next year or >> the year after. But I'm optimistic we'll have a vaccine before then?John >> K Clark > > > > *> Sure, I am cool with optimism. * > I know and your enlightened optimism is refreshing, it's your greatest virtue. It's why I enjoy reading most (but not all) of your posts. > *> But what if the optimistic view is wrong and the economy is permanently > depressed to half what it is now? * > Then that would be very bad, but not as bad as millions dying in an attempt to reach herd immunity which might not even work. There is a lot we don't know about COVID-19 so we never know for certain if what we're doing is the right thing or not, but I think it would be wise to keep that option as a last resort, and after all we've only been fighting this thing for a few months. * > What happens to all that borrowing,* > Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money coming in, and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is they will flat out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make trouble. If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be the very least of our problems! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:25:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:25:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There are lots and lots of people financially hurting, but two come to my mind: hair dressers and barbers. Now I have been cutting my own hair often and can do it again, but these people are not likely to have big bucks in the bank. I think a one on one situation should fall to the customer: his choice as to whether to take the chance. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:21 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >>?As for COVID-19 herd immunity almost nothing is known ?and for all we >>> know we might have to go through the same thing all over again next year or >>> the year after. But I'm optimistic we'll have a vaccine before then?John >>> K Clark >> >> >> >> *> Sure, I am cool with optimism. * >> > > I know and your enlightened optimism is refreshing, it's your greatest > virtue. It's why I enjoy reading most (but not all) of your posts. > > >> *> But what if the optimistic view is wrong and the economy is >> permanently depressed to half what it is now? * >> > > Then that would be very bad, but not as bad as millions dying in an > attempt to reach herd immunity which might not even work. There is a lot we > don't know about COVID-19 so we never know for certain if what we're doing > is the right thing or not, but I think it would be wise to keep that option > as a last resort, and after all we've only been fighting this thing for a > few months. > > * > What happens to all that borrowing,* >> > > Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money coming in, > and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is they will flat > out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make trouble. If a > vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be the > very least of our problems! > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:26:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 18:26:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:43 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > Close proximity' is redundant, And your observation is very unique. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 22:34:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 15:34:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money coming in, and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is they will flat out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make trouble. Exactly. We need to open everything and let the people get back to work forthwith. >?If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be the very least of our problems! John K Clark Least of our problems? Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, when it is clear enough we weren?t even paying for what we were already trying to do. We have built a trap for ourselves, then fallen into it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:37:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 18:37:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:15 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're > elected President.* Are you actually trying to tell me with a straight face that you don't think Trump is stupid and profoundly ignorant??!! > It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're > elected President. > I don't recall anyone saying the first Bush was stupid. And Nixon had many vices but being stupid was not one of them. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:53:38 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:53:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, spike It has never happened before. Why now? As John pointed out, we have never balanced the budget. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > >?Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money > coming in, and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is > they will flat out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make > trouble. > > > > Exactly. We need to open everything and let the people get back to work > forthwith. > > > > > > >?If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be > the very least of our problems! John K Clark > > > > Least of our problems? Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our > problems. That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean > lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, when it is > clear enough we weren?t even paying for what we were already trying to do. > > > > We have built a trap for ourselves, then fallen into it. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:55:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:55:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John - if you want someone to call Bush stupid, then I will. At the time he was the worst president in history, according to me and lots of folks. Trump passed him like he was standing still. bill w On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:48 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:15 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're >> elected President.* > > > Are you actually trying to tell me with a straight face that you don't > think Trump is stupid and profoundly ignorant??!! > > > It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're >> elected President. >> > > I don't recall anyone saying the first Bush was stupid. And Nixon had many > vices but being stupid was not one of them. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 7 23:06:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 19:06:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >?If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be >> the very least of our problems! John K Clark > > *> Least of our problems?* > Yes, the least of our problems. * > Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. * > Failure to balance the budget created the COVID-19 virus? * > we have failed to balance the budget for decades* > No. We have failed to balance the budget for nearly 2 centuries. So maybe just maybe a budget deficit doesn't bring about instant economic death after all. But COVID-19 can bring about biological death, not instantly but pretty damn fast, 2,528 Americans died just yesterday and that's the second highest in one day ever bringing the new number to 76,868 dead Americans. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 23:13:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 16:13:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016401d624c5$14e138b0$3ea3aa10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, spike It has never happened before. Why now? As John pointed out, we have never balanced the budget. bill w Why now: because other countries are having their own financial difficulties for the same reason we are. They may realize two things simultaneously: the US government has set up an enormous Ponzi scheme, causing it to slip ever further into debt, slipping faster with an accelerating rate of acceleration. The second thing: they need their money now. When that happens, suddenly the lenders stop lending, and start wanting to borrow. That sends the interest rates thru the roof. OK. Then what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 7 23:23:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 16:23:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <019801d624c6$8121d150$836573f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > Least of our problems? >?Yes, the least of our problems. > Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. >?Failure to balance the budget created the COVID-19 virus? John K Clark No, failure to balance the budget is a reason why we will not and cannot deal effectively with the Covid-19 virus. We will not have the option to stay closed: people have needs, and they need to get to their jobs and businesses, forthwith. What I see in those insisting we keep everything closed is a stunning lack of empathy for those who are not still getting their paychecks. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu May 7 23:33:48 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 19:33:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020, 2:33 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John, a serious question, what is the point of constantly posting updated > US numbers here? Even if we suppose the IFR is close to the flu, there are > still unfortunately going to be some deaths here. > I propose that it is because we know nothing else. Even these published numbers are suspect, but there is some comfort in raw numbers. The hope that even uncertainty has a number that eventually all the numbers can be known and it will make sense. That said, it may be a dangerous delusion. We try to find "sense" in the distribution of prime numbers; we'll make up convoluted patterns when we can't find anything obvious. I see John's death count numbers as an invitation to explain disparity between "normalized" percentages or per capita or per day. Any relation in this data would propose a pattern.. any pattern constrains the chaos. I know, everyone assumes John has an axe to grind (so? doesn't everyone?) but constantly telling him to stop talking because you assume the point he might make says you don't want to find anything else. Or turn the conversation to whatever topic interests you. Despite repeatedly being called a troll (even by me) he continues to contribute to this list. In this isolation-induced boredom and frustration, can we try to be understanding? If you really don't think that's possible, I suggest learning how your email client can filter messages you don't want to read. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri May 8 00:09:20 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 20:09:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John--see? Most of us don't like Trump. I'm sort of shocked that Spike does, because Trump is just such an in-your-face anti-intelligence dumbass. For Rafal, I understand, because Rafal probably has a homemade fasces sitting over his mantel. ;) Anyway I don't really think anyone else here is pro Trump. He is a cretin and a fool and a huge idiot. But also president, so I try to deal with it. And I don't muddy up the waters here with that bullshit, because I want to talk about cryogenics and consciousness and other cool stuff. On Thu, May 7, 2020, 19:00 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John - if you want someone to call Bush stupid, then I will. At the time > he was the worst president in history, according to me and lots of folks. > Trump passed him like he was standing still. > > bill w > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 5:48 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:15 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > *It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're >>> elected President.* >> >> >> Are you actually trying to tell me with a straight face that you don't >> think Trump is stupid and profoundly ignorant??!! >> >> > It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're >>> elected President. >>> >> >> I don't recall anyone saying the first Bush was stupid. And Nixon had >> many vices but being stupid was not one of them. >> >> John K Clark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 00:18:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 17:18:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01bf01d624ce$43796360$ca6c2a20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better John--see? Most of us don't like Trump. I'm sort of shocked that Spike does? No one is more shocked than I am. Do explain how you came to that conclusion please. I was a Johnson voter. Both of the mainstream candidates disqualified themselves in my view. Trump made it clear enough that he had no intention of serious work on balancing the budget, his opponent even less so, with the addition that she had already abused power with the personal email server. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri May 8 01:34:45 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:34:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01bf01d624ce$43796360$ca6c2a20$@rainier66.com> References: <01bf01d624ce$43796360$ca6c2a20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Oh no, the email server. Now you?ve done it Will. This is partially how we got to a ban on T***p or politics or whatever it was around here. Let?s not hear more about the supposed email server of doom. I?d settle for a resumption of the ban to get there. > On May 7, 2020, at 8:19 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > John--see? Most of us don't like Trump. I'm sort of shocked that Spike does? > > No one is more shocked than I am. Do explain how you came to that conclusion please. > > I was a Johnson voter. Both of the mainstream candidates disqualified themselves in my view. Trump made it clear enough that he had no intention of serious work on balancing the budget, his opponent even less so, with the addition that she had already abused power with the personal email server. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 02:33:51 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:33:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <015d01d62494$1bf63b90$53e2b2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <74E2D949-B819-4DCD-9DF8-3005744B19AE@gmail.com> I think ?close proximity? is entirely legitimate. It?s like the difference between ?nearby? and ?really close?. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 2:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! > > Please help me in my frustrating ongling war against redundancies. "Proximity' means 'closeness'. 'Close proximity' is redundant, the equivalent of saying 'close closeness'. Please??? "Share in common' in another one. bill w > >> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> Wait spike are you joking about not catching it on top of a train? Confined spaces don't have to be inside. Close proximity should be enough for transfer whether you are inside the train or on top of it. But I couldn't tell if you were being facetious or not >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 02:44:38 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:44:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> Spike, I think you?re failing to realize this: If we wanted to, we could take the amount of the US debt and just... print that many dollars and just pay. Poof. Debt disappears in a puff of smoke. Money only exists because we all agree it exists. It has no intrinsic worth, beyond maybe butt wiping and kindling. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 5:34 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > > > >?Already nearly 1 in 4 Americans are unemployed with zero money coming in, and they need to eat, and one thing you CAN be certain of is they will flat out refuse to quietly starve to death. They will make trouble. > > Exactly. We need to open everything and let the people get back to work forthwith. > > > >?If a vaccine can not be found then the lack of a balanced budget will be the very least of our problems! John K Clark > > Least of our problems? Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. That we have failed to balance the budget for decades will mean lenders will not come stampeding to loan the US more money, when it is clear enough we weren?t even paying for what we were already trying to do. > > We have built a trap for ourselves, then fallen into it. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 03:02:59 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 22:02:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <01e301d6249d$bd9c4990$38d4dcb0$@rainier66.com> References: <01e301d6249d$bd9c4990$38d4dcb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <245A404D-F09D-4FA3-9A07-39B0094E59DD@gmail.com> I don?t think living in a simulation is synonymous with every person you meet being a simulated person (not originating from born person. It could be quite possible that all or most of the other people you meet are uploads. And does the cashier at upload McDonalds really need to be a non-simulated (?real?) person? Most people already treat cashiers like robots and sub-humans, so why not give that ?job? to actual robots. It?s not as if you have to worry about wages in an uploaded economy. Creation of material goods and foods would be trivial. It should, in that case, be very possible to create very new things which are simply not possible in our physical world. I fail to see how that would be unsatisfying. If you can upload a brain, you can upload a perfect copy of Everest with everything being completely realistic, including the changes to your brain & body at higher altitude. If only real life is real enough, we could simulate the entire world from our photographs, weather reports, etc. I think the fun of the idea of uploading comes with the ability to make things both hyper realistic as well as completely fantastical, and a type of mastery over one?s mental and physical state. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 1:31 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat > > >?To Ben, if he or anyone else is actually reading this far down, that's an interesting idea, that the agent body would accomodate to the brain. I like it! ? > > best > Regina > > ------------------------------ > > > > Regina of course we are reading all your commentary. You come across as a very pleasant young lady who thinks through her writing. Please continue your valued contribution to our online community, me lass. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 03:13:16 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 22:13:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <01c801d6249b$f6407ac0$e2c17040$@rainier66.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <01c801d6249b$f6407ac0$e2c17040$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think traditional campuses will always be needed. But I don?t think they need to be as big as they are. I?m jealous of people like (apparently) yourself who see no difference between digital products and physical ones, or between typing and writing. I don?t know about Zoomers who grew up with it, but for all the rest of us, our brains process these two things differently. Despite my interest in using technology for things, sometimes pen and paper just ... ?feels better?. Sure, my grocery list is on my phone but my diary isn?t. The only people I send printed letters to are politicians. When I read a book on paper, I engage with it differently than I do on a computer. I remember paper books better. Most of my peers and the Zoomers I work with agree that the experience is different. But I?ve never asked which they prefer and why. The main reason I use electronic books is price. If I can get a PDF, I?ll just print it at home, or through office max. For things I?m not studying (that is, things I read for leisure) electronic is fine. For me, taking online classes is horrible. I force myself into it. But I hate every moment of it. It has no redeeming qualities. It?s not even cheaper. The most you could say is that it is ?convenient?. But group projects online are even worse than ?IRL?. I can do it with maximum effort only, even if the class is easy. SR Ballard > On May 7, 2020, at 1:18 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > > Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides > > > >>? I think student debt is the next bubble to burst? Will > > > > >?Unfortunately, it needs to be burst, and the federal backstop on student loans needs to be removed. Between the pressure on universities from CV-19 and removing the federal loan backstop, you would see tuition prices drop in a hurry? Dylan > > > Think of all the opportunities we are now seeing for doing education waaaay the heck cheaper than has been done before. The online learning has proven highly effective for some students, and doesn?t cost much of anything. > > Another take on it: a large and growing cost associated with schools is the legal liability. With online learning, that goes away. Most of the facilities cost goes away. Consider Khan Academy, oh excellent resource, free to all comers, runs on donations. Think of the cost/benefit of that. If we have an effective way to measure students? progress, we wouldn?t really need traditional campuses. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 03:43:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 20:43:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <022e01d624ea$dba74cd0$92f5e670$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Spike, I think you?re failing to realize this: If we wanted to, we could take the amount of the US debt and just... print that many dollars and just pay. Poof. Debt disappears in a puff of smoke. Money only exists because we all agree it exists. It has no intrinsic worth, beyond maybe butt wiping and kindling. SR Ballard Sure but what if we did? The USD is used to back a lot of world currencies. Plenty of African nations use it as their only real money. If the Federal Reserve started printing money based on nothing, our dollar becomes nearly worthless. Pensoners, broke. Anyone who has fixed-dollar incomes, ruined. No more imports: foreign nations don?t want dollars. No foreign oil: the US pays with phony money. The consequences of that act are so severe, that is the reason it has never been done. The Fed will soft-default on government pensioners before it will print phony money. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 04:47:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:47:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians Message-ID: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides I think traditional campuses will always be needed. But I don?t think they need to be as big as they are. I?m jealous of people like (apparently) yourself who see no difference between digital products and physical ones? SR Ballard Hi SR, I do see a difference between digital products and physical ones: the digital ones are better. You can do more with them, such as search for a text or phrase you found amusing. I treasure my PG Wodehouse digital collection. My ambition is to become Jeeves when I grow up. I had an idea based on the response one of my scouts received from the office of a senator. The requirement was to write to any political leader expressing an opinion on any topic. She received a letter back which was easily recognized as a generic form letter, but on the topic of the scout?s letter. It occurred to me that a software could read the letter (assuming it was typed) pick out key words and fashion a response that generally hit the topics of the letter. It might be a collection of paragraphs on various topics for instance, chosen by keywords from the incoming letter. If we did this with sufficient skill, a letter writer might never realize the communication was never seen by a human. The response could be generated, printed, folded, placed in an envelope, addressed and sent, every bit of it automated. Electronic mail would be even easier. We could have a digital politician. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 8 04:59:37 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:59:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] antiscience from both sides > > > > I think traditional campuses will always be needed. But I don?t think they > need to be as big as they are. > > > > I?m jealous of people like (apparently) yourself who see no difference > between digital products and physical ones? > > > > > > SR Ballard > > > > > > Hi SR, I do see a difference between digital products and physical ones: > the digital ones are better. You can do more with them, such as search for > a text or phrase you found amusing. I treasure my PG Wodehouse digital > collection. My ambition is to become Jeeves when I grow up. > > > > I had an idea based on the response one of my scouts received from the > office of a senator. The requirement was to write to any political leader > expressing an opinion on any topic. She received a letter back which was > easily recognized as a generic form letter, but on the topic of the scout?s > letter. > > > > It occurred to me that a software could read the letter (assuming it was > typed) pick out key words and fashion a response that generally hit the > topics of the letter. It might be a collection of paragraphs on various > topics for instance, chosen by keywords from the incoming letter. If we > did this with sufficient skill, a letter writer might never realize the > communication was never seen by a human. The response could be generated, > printed, folded, placed in an envelope, addressed and sent, every bit of it > automated. > > > > Electronic mail would be even easier. We could have a digital politician. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 05:09:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 22:09:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ai politicians Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 8 09:40:05 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 10:40:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/05/2020 16:56, Re Rose wrote: > I don't think an uploaded copy of my brain pattern in any way will or > ever can be "me". The slow-replacement theory isn't persuasive, as > each component acclimates to the surroundings slowly which I think is > ok. That's not a massive uploading event. The thought-experiment I > trust the most, which is against uploading,? is the one where you > consider uploading a copy made before you are dead into a new body. If > you aren't "in" that new agent animated by your copy (since you're > still alive) -- well, how will you ever be able to be "in" that or any > other copy ? IMHO, you can't. Not ever. A copy is a copy. Fun and > maybe comforting for your surviving friends and family, and to be sure > it is an agent in its own right - its just not you. > You seem to have changed your mind about uploading. I recommend reading "A Taxonomy and Metaphysics of Mind Uploading" by Keith Wiley, and having a look at this site: https://carboncopies.org/writing/ You assume that there can only be one 'you'. So far that has been true, but there's no law of physics that says it will always be true. A perfect copy of your mind would necessarily be you, unless you subscribe to some form of dualism, and think people have 'souls' in the way that religious people mean. You say 'a copy is a copy'. True. But what does that mean? I'm a copy of the me of 2 seconds ago. I'm still me. A copy of Beethoven's 9th symphony is a copy. It's still Beethoven's 9th symphony. As long as the copies are identical, it doesn't matter if after the process, there are two items or still one item (in the case of destructive copying). Or a hundred. There's nothing inferior about 'a copy', as long as its fidelity is high enough (a thing we don't yet know about brains is just how high the fidelity needs to be, for an upload). When an amoeba splits into two daughter amoebas by copying all of its parts, which is the 'real' amoeba, and which is the copy? Not only is it not possible to tell (even by radiolabelling its food), the question doesn't really mean anything. It has branched into two identical amoebas. Each has as much claim to be 'the real one' as the other. I can see no reason the same thing wouldn't be true of a copy of a mind. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 11:54:39 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 07:54:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:01 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John - if you want someone to call Bush stupid, then I will. At the time > he was the worst president in history, according to me and lots of folks. > Trump passed him like he was standing still. > I agree completely If you're talking about the second Bush, George W Bush (2001-2009), at the time I thought he would be the worst president I would ever see but I was wrong, however I was talking about the first Bush, George HW Bush (1989-1993), he wasn't great but he wasn't dreadful eother. Before either Bush I thought the worst president in my lifetime would be Lyndon Johnson, but I was wrong then too. I'm not sure about worst in history, James Buchanan might give all of them a run for the money, but Trump is far from finished, he still has time (maybe 8 more months, maybe 8 more years, maybe even more) to make lots of more idiotic decisions and pull way ahead of Buchanan for a clear win. By the way, by "worst president" I don't necessarily mean the man most lacking in personal virtue, I mean the man who inflicted the most damage to the country. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 12:23:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 05:23:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401d62533$6b312130$41936390$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?Spike, I think you?re failing to realize this: If we wanted to, we could take the amount of the US debt and just... print that many dollars and just pay. Poof. Debt disappears in a puff of smoke. >?Money only exists because we all agree it exists. It has no intrinsic worth, beyond maybe butt wiping and kindling. >?SR Ballard Hi SR, Many US states are being forced to re-open their economies before it is safe. They know it isn?t safe yet, and we all know it. It is crazy risky. It will cost lives. The consequences of that will be bad. In your view, if printing more money to pay off debts is an option (poof, debt disappears in a puff of smoke (just give the unemployed their former pay)) why aren?t we doing that? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 12:47:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:47:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 1:53 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > I would not want to be battling with a slew of uploads as to who gets > to live my life and who gets to be my slave - or die. * > But what you want does not necessarily coincide with what will be. In the future if anybody takes pity on my frozen brain and is kind enough to take the trouble to revive me it will almost certainly be as an upload because they would not want somebody as primitive as me running around at the same level of reality as their master computer servers. And I'm OK with that, it beats oblivion anyway. * > I do not believe in any case that we either live in a simulation or > that we would be happy in one.* > If they figure it would make you unhappy they just won't tell you that you're living in a simulation. Problem solved. > * > I don't think a simulation will ever get creative enough to be human* > cre?a?tiv?i?ty /?kr???tiv?d?/ Learn to pronounce *noun* Anything that computers aren't good at. Yet. > *> Atari games that found ways to get superhuman scores by twisting the > rules of the game. But even in those cases you can see the innovation came > from non-human computer abilities,* > Exactly. *> In any case I do not care to come back in a simulation or game, to me > that would be the antithesis of being human~ * > Being human sucks. I'm not nearly as smart as I'd like and I sure won't last for as long as I'd like. *> we can't forget that the hormone cycles interact - another level of > feedback. Reproduction of chaotic systems is notoriously difficult* > If hormone cycles were chaotic we'd all be dead because critical hormones would be constantly swinging unpredictably from lethally low levels to lethally high levels; but that doesn't happen because hormone cycles, like every other chemical cycle in biology, makes use of negative feedback that damps out any trend toward chaos. And it's not difficult at all for a computer to produce chaotic behavior, the computer you're reading this on right now is powerful enough to do that. What's difficult, virtually impossible in fact, is to know the real world initial conditions with enough precision to make good long term predictions of what the real world chaotic system will do. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 13:16:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 09:16:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <016401d624c5$14e138b0$3ea3aa10$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <016401d624c5$14e138b0$3ea3aa10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> suddenly the lenders stop lending, and start wanting to borrow. That > sends the interest rates thru the roof.* We've heard all that before, people have been saying deficit spending will produce ruinously high interest rates for 2 centuries and right now interest rates are the lowest in living memory, but don't give up hope you still might get lucky; remember, if you want to make a correct prediction you've got to predict often, and even a stopped clock is right twice a day. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 13:40:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:40:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai politicians > > > > Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually > composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have > even read them. > > > > > > I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could > be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The > staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, > then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that > kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state > representative reads letters from the proletatiat. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 13:42:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:42:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I met Bush the Elder, and a finer gentleman never lived. bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 6:57 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:01 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > John - if you want someone to call Bush stupid, then I will. At the >> time he was the worst president in history, according to me and lots of >> folks. Trump passed him like he was standing still. >> > > I agree completely If you're talking about the second Bush, George W Bush > (2001-2009), at the time I thought he would be the worst president I would > ever see but I was wrong, however I was talking about the first Bush, > George HW Bush (1989-1993), he wasn't great but he wasn't dreadful eother. > Before either Bush I thought the worst president in my lifetime would be > Lyndon Johnson, but I was wrong then too. I'm not sure about worst in > history, James Buchanan might give all of them a run for the money, but > Trump is far from finished, he still has time (maybe 8 more months, maybe 8 > more years, maybe even more) to make lots of more idiotic decisions and > pull way ahead of Buchanan for a clear win. > > By the way, by "worst president" I don't necessarily mean the man most > lacking in personal virtue, I mean the man who inflicted the most damage to > the country. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 14:02:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 07:02:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <016401d624c5$14e138b0$3ea3aa10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005a01d62541$56a64ed0$03f2ec70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 7:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > suddenly the lenders stop lending, and start wanting to borrow. That sends the interest rates thru the roof. >?We've heard all that before, people have been saying deficit spending will produce ruinously high interest rates for 2 centuries.... John K Clark Ja. A Ponzi scheme is a great investment until it suddenly isn?t anymore. My question: what happens when it isn?t anymore? SR suggests we print more money. This approach has been taken before: https://www.amazon.com/Zimbabwe-100-Trillion-Dollar-Note/dp/B00U1ZMYGC https://mashable.com/2016/07/27/german-hyperinflation/ https://www.aljazeera.com/ajimpact/venezuela-currency-worth-craft-paper-money-191224144545023.html So we could tax the super high-paid. But there aren?t that many of them: the big sports stars and a few CEOs make a lot money, but that isn?t a drop in the bucket. Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other ideas, lots of them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 14:47:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 07:47:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other ideas, lots of them. Spike Regarding ideas, I am soliciting ideas on other stuff besides economies. I have a pretty good idea how economies will go after hearing how much trouble the California government is in: they will realize that shutting down an economy for an extended period is ruinous as well as Covid. The governor (and the other 49 governors) will stand down soon methinks, even knowing it is very risky, for they already know and have seen what happens in the alternative. They are sailing between Scylla and Charybdis. What isn?t clear is public education. We are doing remote learning here, and it is working for some, not at all for others. The schools have been closed for the remainder of the academic year, but the plan is to return in August. If Covid cases shoot way up (certainly a plausible scenario) we can easily imagine the governor would close the schools but not the businesses (this is my prediction of what will happen.) The schools can pretend they are still operational, and they are? for some of the students. Academically the rich get richer, the poor get nothing (because they don?t show up.) If anyone wants to toss out ideas, please do. I am on an evaluation board offering the district superintendent a parents?-eye-view of remote learning. The board may not like what I have to say, but I will tell the truth: remote learning works well for some, but the best bet for actual learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. What if the caseload in the fall is a lot higher than now and we have enough test kits but we find that doesn?t help much because the virus has already spread before the first symptoms show up? Or what if it is about the same as now, or only a little lower: they would still need to keep the schools closed, ja? The shops and businesses will need to stay open for the most part, the ones which haven?t folded by then. But schools have the option of closing. Ideas? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 15:00:59 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:00:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The irony here is that schools are probably the last thing that should have ever been closed based on both the economic hardships foisted on lower income families as a result and the fact that the risk of death for those age groups is close to zero. I'm more concerned with the fact that unemployment is now at 14.7% in the US, and that for many low income employees, it now makes sense to keep collecting unemployment due to the fact that they are getting paid more to sit at home than they are paid to return to work. The entire stimulus package has been a disaster between eliminating ACTUAL income as a factor in the unemployment payments and the fact that there were few conditions attached to the PPP loan program to prevent anyone who applied from taking advantage of it. There's a real possibility of a lost decade in the US now caused entirely by an over-reaction to CV-19, not the actual impact of the virus itself. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > >?Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way > up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other > ideas, lots of them. Spike > > > > > > Regarding ideas, I am soliciting ideas on other stuff besides economies. > I have a pretty good idea how economies will go after hearing how much > trouble the California government is in: they will realize that shutting > down an economy for an extended period is ruinous as well as Covid. The > governor (and the other 49 governors) will stand down soon methinks, even > knowing it is very risky, for they already know and have seen what happens > in the alternative. They are sailing between Scylla and Charybdis. > > > > What isn?t clear is public education. We are doing remote learning here, > and it is working for some, not at all for others. The schools have been > closed for the remainder of the academic year, but the plan is to return in > August. If Covid cases shoot way up (certainly a plausible scenario) we > can easily imagine the governor would close the schools but not the > businesses (this is my prediction of what will happen.) The schools can > pretend they are still operational, and they are? for some of the > students. Academically the rich get richer, the poor get nothing (because > they don?t show up.) > > > > If anyone wants to toss out ideas, please do. I am on an evaluation board > offering the district superintendent a parents?-eye-view of remote > learning. The board may not like what I have to say, but I will tell the > truth: remote learning works well for some, but the best bet for actual > learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go > to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. > > > > What if the caseload in the fall is a lot higher than now and we have > enough test kits but we find that doesn?t help much because the virus has > already spread before the first symptoms show up? Or what if it is about > the same as now, or only a little lower: they would still need to keep the > schools closed, ja? The shops and businesses will need to stay open for > the most part, the ones which haven?t folded by then. But schools have the > option of closing. > > > > Ideas? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rahmans at me.com Fri May 8 15:30:53 2020 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 17:30:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: > From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > > > >> Least of our problems? > > >> ?Yes, the least of our problems. > > > >> Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. > > > >> ?Failure to balance the budget created the COVID-19 virus? John K Clark > > > > > > No, failure to balance the budget is a reason why we will not and cannot deal effectively with the Covid-19 virus. We will not have the option to stay closed: people have needs, and they need to get to their jobs and businesses, forthwith. > > > > What I see in those insisting we keep everything closed is a stunning lack of empathy for those who are not still getting their paychecks. > > > > spike What I see in those insisting that we send people back to work is a stunning lack of empathy for those who will die because they were forced back to work. Empathy for people not getting pay checks vs. empathy for people getting sick and dying: what a terribly difficult choice! Let?s reason this out. What do we know? You can give people money. You can?t reanimate people. (Unless someone on the list has really been holding out on us!) Hmmm?.wait a second?.I?m sure I can figure this out. Let?s give the people money! Additionally, please remember what money money is: trust symbols. Either you trust the government, or the blockchain, or the relative scarcity and symbolism of Au. It is all trust. What is going to increase trust in the system the most right now? Giving people money so that they can pay for food and essentials. In 2008 people all over the world gave the banks, and remember ?corporations are people too?, so so so so much money to keep them alive. It is time to tell the banks that they quite literally OWE US THEIR LIVES. If the government takes care of the people, which is its job, and the banks are prevented from using this pandemic as a ?business opportunity? everything becomes very simple. Furthermore, to all the ?libertarians? who are right now thinking ?we don?t want a nanny state?, consider this scenario: You go to the hospital. (wheeze, wheeze, cough, cough) You: Doc, I need a ventilator. Doc: Nah. You: But I have golden plus premium private heath insurance, the best that money can buy! Doc: *shrug* You: I?ll sue, I?ll call the police! (Translation: I?ll tell Nanny!) The American failure that were are witnessing, and might be witnessing needlessly accelerate, is exactly the failure of American empathy. Empathy is the root of all societies. On the other hand this same failure of empathy might be a triumph for capitalism. The failure of empathy is basically Ayn Rand in a nutshell. Too bad for the people reading this is the fact that capital is money, and money is trust, trust only originates from people, and dead people don?t trust. Empathy, is something the strong have. Empathy, is the granting of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ?nth chances. Empathy is the only exit from the ?prisoner?s dilemma?. Empathy works because unless you live on the move and never meet the same people twice your empathy will eventually be reciprocated. Empathy builds trust. A post most emphatically about empathy by, Omar Rahman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 15:44:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:44:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better >?The irony here is that schools are probably the last thing that should have ever been closed based on both the economic hardships foisted on lower income families as a result and the fact that the risk of death for those age groups is close to zero? Hi Dylan, ja, however the risk of students carrying that virus home and infecting their parents and grandparents is high. I hear ya, and partially agree, but the school board recognizes the risk to the family members and is making decisions based on that. >?I'm more concerned with the fact that unemployment is now at 14.7% in the US, and that for many low income employees, it now makes sense to keep collecting unemployment due to the fact that they are getting paid more to sit at home than they are paid to return to work? Well right, however? that isn?t going to last very long. The report coming out of California yesterday makes it clear. Even though they don?t want to re-open this economy and doing so is risky, the state faces an even bigger risk if it doesn?t: the funding for unemployment payments will be exhausted. It was never designed to carry 14% of the population (because it cannot.) The state is borrowing money as fast as it can, but the investors all over the world are jumping on the opportunity to not lend California money. Imagine that. I anticipate that the state income tax will zoom way up, the sales tax will zoom way up pretty soon, the gas tax (all of these will be forced on the state) but not the property tax: that one is set in stone (fortunately for homeowners.) >?The entire stimulus package has been a disaster between eliminating ACTUAL income as a factor in the unemployment payments and the fact that there were few conditions attached to the PPP loan program to prevent anyone who applied from taking advantage of it? Ja, so what do we do? I can imagine governments all over the world are facing pretty similar problems: they must realize that shutting down an economy is a really bad option, even if not shutting it down is also a really bad option. >?There's a real possibility of a lost decade in the US now caused entirely by an over-reaction to CV-19, not the actual impact of the virus itself? Ja. My focus in on schools at the moment, for I can pretty much see how the rest of it must play out, whether we like it or not: shops and businesses will need to re-open forthwith, regardless of the risks. Some businesses will not be back, plenty of them. The newly-unemployed will be re-employed meeting needs that weren?t there before, such as grocery delivery. That doesn?t pay enough to support the lifestyle to which so many have become fondly accustomed, and in many cases not enough to cover the mortgage. So that will be really bad. My focus is on schools. Does anyone see any realistic alternative? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:10:27 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 02:10:27 +1000 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 May 2020 at 01:45, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > >?The irony here is that schools are probably the last thing that should > have ever been closed based on both the economic hardships foisted on lower > income families as a result and the fact that the risk of death for those > age groups is close to zero? > > > > Hi Dylan, ja, however the risk of students carrying that virus home and > infecting their parents and grandparents is high. I hear ya, and partially > agree, but the school board recognizes the risk to the family members and > is making decisions based on that. > > > > >?I'm more concerned with the fact that unemployment is now at 14.7% in > the US, and that for many low income employees, it now makes sense to keep > collecting unemployment due to the fact that they are getting paid more to > sit at home than they are paid to return to work? > > > > Well right, however? that isn?t going to last very long. The report > coming out of California yesterday makes it clear. Even though they don?t > want to re-open this economy and doing so is risky, the state faces an even > bigger risk if it doesn?t: the funding for unemployment payments will be > exhausted. It was never designed to carry 14% of the population (because > it cannot.) The state is borrowing money as fast as it can, but the > investors all over the world are jumping on the opportunity to not lend > California money. Imagine that. > > > > I anticipate that the state income tax will zoom way up, the sales tax > will zoom way up pretty soon, the gas tax (all of these will be forced on > the state) but not the property tax: that one is set in stone (fortunately > for homeowners.) > > > > > > >?The entire stimulus package has been a disaster between eliminating > ACTUAL income as a factor in the unemployment payments and the fact that > there were few conditions attached to the PPP loan program to prevent > anyone who applied from taking advantage of it? > > > > Ja, so what do we do? I can imagine governments all over the world are > facing pretty similar problems: they must realize that shutting down an > economy is a really bad option, even if not shutting it down is also a > really bad option. > Government-mandated shutdowns are not the primary cause of the economic downturn. Having a deadly contagious disease in the community would severely damage an economy even if the government actively tried to encourage normal economic activity. > > > >?There's a real possibility of a lost decade in the US now caused > entirely by an over-reaction to CV-19, not the actual impact of the virus > itself? > > > > Ja. My focus in on schools at the moment, for I can pretty much see how > the rest of it must play out, whether we like it or not: shops and > businesses will need to re-open forthwith, regardless of the risks. Some > businesses will not be back, plenty of them. The newly-unemployed will be > re-employed meeting needs that weren?t there before, such as grocery > delivery. That doesn?t pay enough to support the lifestyle to which so > many have become fondly accustomed, and in many cases not enough to cover > the mortgage. So that will be really bad. > > > > My focus is on schools. > > > > Does anyone see any realistic alternative? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:18:51 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:18:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > >?The irony here is that schools are probably the last thing that should > have ever been closed based on both the economic hardships foisted on lower > income families as a result and the fact that the risk of death for those > age groups is close to zero? > > > > Hi Dylan, ja, however the risk of students carrying that virus home and > infecting their parents and grandparents is high. I hear ya, and partially > agree, but the school board recognizes the risk to the family members and > is making decisions based on that. > I understand, although I will point out that it is questionable whether or not they spread at the same level as adults. I'm not saying it would not be a calculated risk, as definitive evidence does not exist, but here's a recent discussion on it: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01354-0 > > > I anticipate that the state income tax will zoom way up, the sales tax > will zoom way up pretty soon, the gas tax (all of these will be forced on > the state) but not the property tax: that one is set in stone (fortunately > for homeowners.) > > > Yes, I agree, we're all likely to get taxed out the a$$ to cover this mess at the state level. It's also an easy excuse to raise taxes regardless. > > > > Ja, so what do we do? I can imagine governments all over the world are > facing pretty similar problems: they must realize that shutting down an > economy is a really bad option, even if not shutting it down is also a > really bad option. > Well, I understand why some of it was rushed, but I don't think it was a good idea to apply blanket unemployment checks with $600 tacked on just because it was logistically more challenging to check their actual incomes. If unemployment always worked like this, it would be a disaster. The lack of constraints on the PPP was the inexcusable part, and was easily avoided. New Zealand also helped businesses but had much more stringent terms to be able to get the loan, and btw these aren't even loans for practical purposes, most of them will be forgiven if you use them towards payroll only and meet a few other basic requirements. > > > Does anyone see any realistic alternative? > > > > I saw one before this mess. Enforce common sense social distancing ala Sweden and keep things open. Yes, of course, the economy would still take a major hit, and theirs has as well, but more commerce is being transacted than it would have been with a US/European style lockdown, and not as many people would be unemployed. The only thing to do now is reopen and deal with both the virus and the economy as best we can. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:25:40 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:25:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We have a deadly, very contagious disease called influenza every year which does not shutdown entire economies. There are very well defined high risk groups for CV-19 lethality. The economic impact has been driven both by the fear that has been induced in most populations globally by government officials and the media, and by official mandate that attempts to make examples of offenders. Yes, of course, there would still be significant impacts on some sectors in any case but many people would not be exhibiting current behaviors with no mandate if they understood how low the actual risk of death is in most portions of the population. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:11 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Government-mandated shutdowns are not the primary cause of the economic > downturn. Having a deadly contagious disease in the community would > severely damage an economy even if the government actively tried to > encourage normal economic activity. > >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 16:28:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 09:28:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <00f401d6254f$82646530$872d2f90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011101d62555$ab3a7070$01af5150$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou On Sat, 9 May 2020 at 01:45, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Ja, so what do we do? I can imagine governments all over the world are facing pretty similar problems: they must realize that shutting down an economy is a really bad option, even if not shutting it down is also a really bad option. >?Government-mandated shutdowns are not the primary cause of the economic downturn. Having a deadly contagious disease in the community would severely damage an economy even if the government actively tried to encourage normal economic activity. -- Stathis Papaioannou Hi Stathis, As I recall you are from Australia. I don?t know how it works there, but in the states, the federal government doesn?t have the authority to demand the economy shut down: that decision is on the state governors. Most of them have stayed closed, but there are a few states such as California which realize it is now open up, like it or not. Today I noticed the traffic is way up, and the construction guys are back. Schools stay closed. I have little doubt you are right: plenty of businesses will never reopen, and many of those who do will struggle to stay afloat. We will be feeling the effects of this for years to come, regardless of what we do. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:49:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:49:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Human Challenge Trials Message-ID: If you want to do something drastic to end this virus nightmare there is something we could do that would be far more effective than waiting for herd immunity as well as being less ethically questionable, although I'm sure some would still clutch their pearls in horror, I'm referring to Human Challenge Trials. The idea is young healthy volunteers would be injected with a experimental vaccine (or a placebo) and then deliberately infected with the COVID-19 virus. This would dramatically speed up vaccine development and save many thousands, perhaps millions, of lives; not to mention stop the economy from collapsing into rubble. The death rate for young healthy people who get COVID-19 is only about 1.4 deaths per 10,000 and the death rate for those who volunteer as kidney donors is 3 times that, we accept one as being ethical why not the other? As one ethicist put it: *"This is the trolley problem where the fat man wants to jump knowing his chance of death is below 1% and our decision is whether to stop him."* Should volunteers to be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines? Human Challenge Trials?A Coronavirus Taboo John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:51:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:51:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good post, OMar. You can't have too much empathy. There has to be more of it to balance those who seem to have little of it - who care more about banks and corporations than individuals. bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:33 AM Omar Rahman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > Least of our problems? > > > > ?Yes, the least of our problems. > > > > > Lack of a balanced budget will be the CAUSE of our problems. > > > > > ?Failure to balance the budget created the COVID-19 virus? John K Clark > > > > > > > No, failure to balance the budget is a reason why we will not and cannot > deal effectively with the Covid-19 virus. We will not have the option to > stay closed: people have needs, and they need to get to their jobs and > businesses, forthwith. > > > > What I see in those insisting we keep everything closed is a stunning lack > of empathy for those who are not still getting their paychecks. > > > > spike > > > What I see in those insisting that we send people back to work is a > stunning lack of empathy for those who will die because they were forced > back to work. > > Empathy for people not getting pay checks vs. empathy for people getting > sick and dying: what a terribly difficult choice! > > Let?s reason this out. What do we know? > > You can give people money. > > You can?t reanimate people. (Unless someone on the list has really been > holding out on us!) > > Hmmm?.wait a second?.I?m sure I can figure this out. > > Let?s give the people money! > > > Additionally, please remember what money money is: trust symbols. Either > you trust the government, or the blockchain, or the relative scarcity and > symbolism of Au. It is all trust. What is going to increase trust in the > system the most right now? Giving people money so that they can pay for > food and essentials. > > In 2008 people all over the world gave the banks, and remember > ?corporations are people too?, so so so so much money to keep them alive. > It is time to tell the banks that they quite literally OWE US THEIR LIVES. > If the government takes care of the people, which is its job, and the banks > are prevented from using this pandemic as a ?business opportunity? > everything becomes very simple. > > Furthermore, to all the ?libertarians? who are right now thinking ?we > don?t want a nanny state?, consider this scenario: > > You go to the hospital. (wheeze, wheeze, cough, cough) > > You: Doc, I need a ventilator. > > Doc: Nah. > > You: But I have golden plus premium private heath insurance, the best that > money can buy! > > Doc: *shrug* > > You: I?ll sue, I?ll call the police! (Translation: I?ll tell Nanny!) > > > The American failure that were are witnessing, and might be witnessing > needlessly accelerate, is exactly the failure of American empathy. Empathy > is the root of all societies. > > On the other hand this same failure of empathy might be a triumph for > capitalism. The failure of empathy is basically Ayn Rand in a nutshell. Too > bad for the people reading this is the fact that capital is money, and > money is trust, trust only originates from people, and dead people don?t > trust. > > Empathy, is something the strong have. Empathy, is the granting of 1st, > 2nd, 3rd, ?nth chances. Empathy is the only exit from the ?prisoner?s > dilemma?. Empathy works because unless you live on the move and never meet > the same people twice your empathy will eventually be reciprocated. > > Empathy builds trust. > > A post most emphatically about empathy by, > > Omar Rahman > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:00:54 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:00:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Human Challenge Trials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't really have an issue with what you're proposing, especially if the volunteers were well compensated for taking a risk, but I think you're leaving out the risk of taking a particular flavor of experimental vaccine from your calculations. I don't pretend to know what that risk is though. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If you want to do something drastic to end this virus nightmare there is > something we could do that would be far more effective than waiting for > herd immunity as well as being less ethically questionable, although I'm > sure some would still clutch their pearls in horror, I'm referring to > Human Challenge Trials. The idea is young healthy volunteers would be > injected with a experimental vaccine (or a placebo) and then deliberately > infected with the COVID-19 virus. This would dramatically speed up vaccine > development and save many thousands, perhaps millions, of lives; not to > mention stop the economy from collapsing into rubble. The death rate for > young healthy people who get COVID-19 is only about 1.4 deaths per 10,000 > and the death rate for those who volunteer as kidney donors is 3 times > that, we accept one as being ethical why not the other? > As one ethicist put it: > > *"This is the trolley problem where the fat man wants to jump knowing his > chance of death is below 1% and our decision is whether to stop him."* > > Should volunteers to be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines? > > > Human Challenge Trials?A Coronavirus Taboo > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:02:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:02:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: the best bet for actual learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. spike Once upon a time near the beginning of the video age, the dept. got a circular about a series of videos teaching basic statistics. My chairman asked if I wanted them. My answer was that if I were out for an extended period of time, then having those in reserve was a good idea. Other than that, I prefer to teach the class myself. We did not order. So - you are not going to make any headway with superintendents and principals by suggesting that they bypass their teachers and get their students to watch better teachers on videos, even if they cost very little or nothing. They will support their teachers - or pay a big price. The unions will jump all over them. BTW = what was wrong with my post about the invalidity of the population infectios rates and death rates? I believe those to be useless, as I said. Maybe it is just something the guys can play around with? bill w. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 9:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > >?Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way > up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other > ideas, lots of them. Spike > > > > > > Regarding ideas, I am soliciting ideas on other stuff besides economies. > I have a pretty good idea how economies will go after hearing how much > trouble the California government is in: they will realize that shutting > down an economy for an extended period is ruinous as well as Covid. The > governor (and the other 49 governors) will stand down soon methinks, even > knowing it is very risky, for they already know and have seen what happens > in the alternative. They are sailing between Scylla and Charybdis. > > > > What isn?t clear is public education. We are doing remote learning here, > and it is working for some, not at all for others. The schools have been > closed for the remainder of the academic year, but the plan is to return in > August. If Covid cases shoot way up (certainly a plausible scenario) we > can easily imagine the governor would close the schools but not the > businesses (this is my prediction of what will happen.) The schools can > pretend they are still operational, and they are? for some of the > students. Academically the rich get richer, the poor get nothing (because > they don?t show up.) > > > > If anyone wants to toss out ideas, please do. I am on an evaluation board > offering the district superintendent a parents?-eye-view of remote > learning. The board may not like what I have to say, but I will tell the > truth: remote learning works well for some, but the best bet for actual > learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go > to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. > > > > What if the caseload in the fall is a lot higher than now and we have > enough test kits but we find that doesn?t help much because the virus has > already spread before the first symptoms show up? Or what if it is about > the same as now, or only a little lower: they would still need to keep the > schools closed, ja? The shops and businesses will need to stay open for > the most part, the ones which haven?t folded by then. But schools have the > option of closing. > > > > Ideas? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:03:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:03:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Human Challenge Trials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John you need to re-read the trolley problem. bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 11:51 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If you want to do something drastic to end this virus nightmare there is > something we could do that would be far more effective than waiting for > herd immunity as well as being less ethically questionable, although I'm > sure some would still clutch their pearls in horror, I'm referring to > Human Challenge Trials. The idea is young healthy volunteers would be > injected with a experimental vaccine (or a placebo) and then deliberately > infected with the COVID-19 virus. This would dramatically speed up vaccine > development and save many thousands, perhaps millions, of lives; not to > mention stop the economy from collapsing into rubble. The death rate for > young healthy people who get COVID-19 is only about 1.4 deaths per 10,000 > and the death rate for those who volunteer as kidney donors is 3 times > that, we accept one as being ethical why not the other? > As one ethicist put it: > > *"This is the trolley problem where the fat man wants to jump knowing his > chance of death is below 1% and our decision is whether to stop him."* > > Should volunteers to be infected with coronavirus to test vaccines? > > > Human Challenge Trials?A Coronavirus Taboo > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:03:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:03:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Good post, OMar. > Yes very good. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 17:18:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 10:18:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Good post, OMar. You can't have too much empathy. There has to be more of it to balance those who seem to have little of it - who care more about banks and corporations than individuals. bill w Of course. What happens if those banks and corporations simultaneously fail, taking individuals? money and livelihood with them? Do those corporations become a collection of individuals? Do those banks become a collection of individuals? capital? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 17:41:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 10:41:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better >>? the best bet for actual learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. spike >?So - you are not going to make any headway with superintendents and principals by suggesting that they bypass their teachers and get their students to watch better teachers on videos, even if they cost very little or nothing. They will support their teachers - or pay a big price. The unions will jump all over them? Ja I suspect so. >?BTW = what was wrong with my post about the invalidity of the population infectios rates and death rates? I believe those to be useless, as I said. Maybe it is just something the guys can play around with? bill w. Nothing wrong with that at all. Here?s a fun exercise: try doing your own statistical analysis using the data available. Figure out what to compare to what, such as my ill-fated exercise yesterday. I was trying to compare infection rates to population density. Problem: infection rates on the Johns Hopkins site are based on counties. Counties contain huge metropolis areas as well as swampy uninhabited areas, so the population density is misleading. New York has over a third of the Covid deaths in the US all by itself, but my friend from upstate reminds me that it is all down there next to the city, which is what got me going from the start. Most educational is to go into Google maps and look at New York City, satellite view. Bring up a map showing how the city is divided into counties, but all of it is New York City: it includes Queens, Bronx, Long Island and so on, part of New Jersey. Right there is the hottest hot spot. https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2020/may/05/coronavirus-map-of-the-us-latest-cases-state-by-state This breaks it down by county: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map The data sets are crazy hard to compare directly, but the overall signal is clear enough: infections per capita are all about population density. The hardest-hit areas are those dependent on mass transit. My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: public transit is the bad guy here, or certainly one of the very worst. Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. That would get most of the US (and probably other countries are like that too) back to work and paying the taxes necessary to help feed those who will remain without jobs, some of whom are sick. Alternatives? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:46:15 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:46:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> References: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We should also have empathy for those individuals who are willing to work and can't like the salon owner in Texas who was actually given jail time by a judge with zero empathy for violating a no work ordinance and standing up publicly for her rights and willingness to feed her family. Luckily, the Texas AG had more empathy than the judge and ensured she was released from jail almost as quickly as she was put in there. There is a power grab in progress under the guise of a health crisis by small minded, petty bureaucrats and other government officials. People aren't going to tolerate too much more of it in many states. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > Good post, OMar. You can't have too much empathy. There has to be more > of it to balance those who seem to have little of it - who care more about > banks and corporations than individuals. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Of course. > > > > What happens if those banks and corporations simultaneously fail, taking > individuals? money and livelihood with them? Do those corporations become > a collection of individuals? Do those banks become a collection of > individuals? capital? > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 17:58:30 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 12:58:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <001401d62533$6b312130$41936390$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> <001401d62533$6b312130$41936390$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7F059BF3-22EC-4F60-A8FD-413FE13028B8@gmail.com> I don?t have a good answer to that because that?s essentially what we?re doing. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/15/business/coronavirus-stimulus-money.html https://news.bitcoin.com/printing-money-from-thin-air-how-the-fed-reduces-purchasing-power-and-makes-you-poorer/ Money is a fiction. It can easily be ?taxed back out of existence?. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 7:23 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > >?Spike, I think you?re failing to realize this: If we wanted to, we could take the amount of the US debt and just... print that many dollars and just pay. Poof. Debt disappears in a puff of smoke. > > >?Money only exists because we all agree it exists. It has no intrinsic worth, beyond maybe butt wiping and kindling. > > >?SR Ballard > > > > > Hi SR, > > Many US states are being forced to re-open their economies before it is safe. They know it isn?t safe yet, and we all know it. It is crazy risky. It will cost lives. The consequences of that will be bad. > > In your view, if printing more money to pay off debts is an option (poof, debt disappears in a puff of smoke (just give the unemployed their former pay)) why aren?t we doing that? > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:00:40 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:00:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <654D99C3-1D97-4662-9873-1FF7148F34C8@gmail.com> I know this is going to sound draconian and backwards, but ... truancy officer. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 9:47 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > > >?Are there any other ideas? If economies open up and Covid cases go way up, or if economies don?t open up in spite of the risk, we will need other ideas, lots of them. Spike > > > Regarding ideas, I am soliciting ideas on other stuff besides economies. I have a pretty good idea how economies will go after hearing how much trouble the California government is in: they will realize that shutting down an economy for an extended period is ruinous as well as Covid. The governor (and the other 49 governors) will stand down soon methinks, even knowing it is very risky, for they already know and have seen what happens in the alternative. They are sailing between Scylla and Charybdis. > > What isn?t clear is public education. We are doing remote learning here, and it is working for some, not at all for others. The schools have been closed for the remainder of the academic year, but the plan is to return in August. If Covid cases shoot way up (certainly a plausible scenario) we can easily imagine the governor would close the schools but not the businesses (this is my prediction of what will happen.) The schools can pretend they are still operational, and they are? for some of the students. Academically the rich get richer, the poor get nothing (because they don?t show up.) > > If anyone wants to toss out ideas, please do. I am on an evaluation board offering the district superintendent a parents?-eye-view of remote learning. The board may not like what I have to say, but I will tell the truth: remote learning works well for some, but the best bet for actual learning is to forget watching their classroom lectures on Zoom and just go to Khan Academy: smarter lecturer, better IT, better everything. > > What if the caseload in the fall is a lot higher than now and we have enough test kits but we find that doesn?t help much because the virus has already spread before the first symptoms show up? Or what if it is about the same as now, or only a little lower: they would still need to keep the schools closed, ja? The shops and businesses will need to stay open for the most part, the ones which haven?t folded by then. But schools have the option of closing. > > Ideas? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:00:58 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:00:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, > trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and > business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of > luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: > public transit is the bad guy here, or certainly one of the very worst. > Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. > And then give unemployment compensation to those who self-certify that they needed mass transit to get to work? (Which is often technically false - one *can* use taxis and other such services, just more expensively such that one can't pay other bills. The questions and legal thresholds usually leave off or discourage consideration of "while also paying all my other bills".) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:00:33 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 14:00:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, > trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and > business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of > luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: > public transit is the bad guy here, or certainly one of the very worst. > Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. > > > > > Spike, I can tell you that this is not a practical suggestion for NYC unless you are planning on keeping it shuttered indefinitely until this crisis is over, and even then you will need to set up special transportation for essential workers to get to work. Public transit is the lifeblood of the city. Too many people depend on it to get from their homes in outer boroughs to their places of employment, and most people don't have cars. It's also an economic money pit to begin with that someone will end up bailing out if revenue were to stay at zero long term (Subway ridership is already down by 90% due to the lockdowns). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:07:39 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:07:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w > >> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> Subject: Re: [ExI] ai politicians >> >> >> >> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. >> >> >> >> >> >> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 8 18:45:02 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:45:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm confident that omitting data from the original body won't have any > significant effect on an uploaded mind. Apart from vague statements > about the body contributing to our consciousness, or our minds > 'extending into' the body, I've not heard of any evidence, or convincing > theory, to the contrary. > A lengthy article about exactly this topic came across my inbox just today. (I'm not sure if it's paywalled; please let me know if you can't read it.) https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/meet-psychobiome-gut-bacteria-may-alter-how-you-think-feel-and-act?utm_campaign=news_daily_2020-05-07&et_rid=17038235&et_cid=3318359 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 20:04:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:04:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?We should also have empathy for those individuals who are willing to work and can't like the salon owner in Texas who was actually given jail time by a judge with zero empathy for violating a no work ordinance and standing up publicly for her rights and willingness to feed her family. Luckily, the Texas AG had more empathy than the judge and ensured she was released from jail almost as quickly as she was put in there. >?There is a power grab in progress under the guise of a health crisis by small minded, petty bureaucrats and other government officials. People aren't going to tolerate too much more of it in many states. Three good rules: Don?t mess with Texas. Don?t mess with Texas women and their hair. Don?t mess with Texas women who run businesses. Dylan this whole thing was a most interesting public lesson in civics. POTUS issued these lockdown orders. Immediately Californians began to ask by what authority can POTUS give us orders? Answer: none. So nothing much happened then, which is why the local representative was seen in Chinatown, clearly violating that order. Then states got into the act: our governor issued pretty similar orders, and again we wanted to know how the governor has the authority to make such demands. That one is a little more complicated, but the real question came down to what happens if the citizens refuse? If the locals choose to enforce the orders, what do they cite the shop owner for? The lockdown orders didn?t go thru the state legislature, so it isn?t actually a law. Answer: the local constabulary didn?t know, so they didn?t cite. Shrugs. Now in California we have a mixture of compliance: a some shops never closed, some opened today, some are still closed. In all this, the governor can scarcely be surprised if people from a state which defied federal law decided to defy state law. What remains to be seen is when (if ever) the economy recovers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 20:06:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:06:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <7F059BF3-22EC-4F60-A8FD-413FE13028B8@gmail.com> References: <00c601d62488$8d7055f0$a85101d0$@rainier66.com> <020501d6249f$2bd13820$8373a860$@rainier66.com> <00df01d624b8$37753960$a65fac20$@rainier66.com> <010b01d624bf$a265c3a0$e7314ae0$@rainier66.com> <0938F98C-F7FE-424B-A8B0-EB4E655C1BA5@gmail.com> <001401d62533$6b312130$41936390$@rainier66.com> <7F059BF3-22EC-4F60-A8FD-413FE13028B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005b01d62574$2adc8f20$8095ad60$@rainier66.com> >>?In your view, if printing more money to pay off debts is an option (poof, debt disappears in a puff of smoke (just give the unemployed their former pay)) why aren?t we doing that? spike > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better >?I don?t have a good answer to that because that?s essentially what we?re doing?SR Ballard Clearly not enough. If all we need to do is print money, then we should not be paying taxes. We should just print the money that would have been paid in taxes. It is remarkable no one discovered this marvelous theory before now. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 20:11:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:11:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006901d62574$eb3ee510$c1bcaf30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 10:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: public transit is the bad guy here, or certainly one of the very worst. Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. >?And then give unemployment compensation to those who self-certify that they needed mass transit to get to work? (Which is often technically false - one *can* use taxis and other such services, just more expensively such that one can't pay other bills. The questions and legal thresholds usually leave off or discourage consideration of "while also paying all my other bills".) Ja. Unemployment will be high of course, and the system might still fail with the rest of the non-urban areas working. But it would hold up for a while, which might be a good compromise. We have painted ourselves into a corner with those subways. There is no reason to believe this is the last epidemic. No matter how you cut it, those things will always be a health hazard. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 8 20:19:23 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 16:19:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> References: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Then states got into the act: our governor issued pretty similar orders, > and again we wanted to know how the governor has the authority to make such > demands. That one is a little more complicated, but the real question came > down to what happens if the citizens refuse? If the locals choose to > enforce the orders, what do they cite the shop owner for? The lockdown > orders didn?t go thru the state legislature, so it isn?t actually a law. > Answer: the local constabulary didn?t know, so they didn?t cite. Shrugs. > > > Generally, there is ALWAYS something to charge someone with if the will is there. For example, in the Texas case, there was a law on the books allowing punishment of anyone violating an executive order. This law essentially allows executive orders from the Governor to be treated as law (I'm not even sure this is Constitutional but it is what it is). In any case, the AG took care of it and confinement is no longer an option for violating this particular executive order, but the unjust law sits on the books for the next time power needs to be applied. I will give you another example closer to home for me in my wonderful fiscally irresponsible state of Connecticut. I have a permit to carry pistols and long guns in the state. In particular, it allows me to carry a handgun concealed. The actual law is written for open carry. It does not specify that the firearm needs to be concealed. Under the permit law, I am welcome to carry open in CT. However, I was warned during my NRA licensed pistol permit class that if I made the decision to open carry in the state, I would immediately be arrested by the nearest cop for disturbing the peace, my firearm would be confiscated, and I would have to hire a lawyer/get the NRA involved to get it back and hopefully get the charges dismissed (no guarantee). There are enough laws on the books to make anyone not towing the official line a felon in short order. Land of the free indeed! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 20:24:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:24:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008c01d62576$a8fcd980$faf68c80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit?Governors do have the authority to close subways and buses. >?Spike, I can tell you that this is not a practical suggestion for NYC?Too many people depend on it to get from their homes in outer boroughs to their places of employment, and most people don't have cars? Dylan Dylan I have seen it, and ja I know: NYC will become a nightmare until those subways can be made safe. It isn?t clear to me that they can ever be made safe. I can imagine office space being converted to residential units. Dylan one way or another? this system has grown inherently brittle. Something was eventually going to shatter it. This map is telling us something really important, whether we want to hear it or not: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2020/may/05/coronavirus-map-of-the-us-latest-cases-state-by-state The rest of the country must get back to work, forthwith. Those areas were packed way closer than can be reasonably sustained. This strategy must be re-thought. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 20:48:37 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 15:48:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Why in the world would you want to save them? bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. > > SR Ballard > > On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w > > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai politicians >> >> >> >> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually >> composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have >> even read them. >> >> >> >> >> >> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could >> be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The >> staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, >> then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that >> kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state >> representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 21:03:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 14:03:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] map of covid cases Message-ID: <006401d6257c$0fd7ed70$2f87c850$@rainier66.com> This map from the Johns Hopkins site is very informative. The map below is about 100 km side to side, so think of it as a 50 km radius from the statue of liberty. At this scale it is hard to see, but this is the Covid-19 epicenter of the USA, the mouth of the Hudson River. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map The worst county is Queens, to the right of the harbor where the Statue of Liberty stands. Cook county is in Chicago. Kings is to the west of Queens. Bronx is north of Queens. Nassau is east of Queens. Suffolk county is everything out to the east on Long Island. Westchester county is the next one north of Bronx. Los Angeles county gets in there, then New York county. You wouldn't be very far off if you said the Statue of Liberty is ground zero for Covid in the US, and those are counties around there are the ones most dependent on mass transit. I know it isn't a good solution and doesn't work for everyone, but it is clear enough what needs to happen. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 65678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri May 8 21:15:37 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 16:15:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <715C2207-BE32-491F-BB32-F9358CC61281@gmail.com> It seems odd, but makes sense in context. The one from the Pope?s secretary, one Paolo -BORGIA- I keep for sentimental reasons. Everything else is to answer the questions, ?Well, why don?t you just write your representatives? That?ll make things change.? I also keep a copy of the letter I sent them. Some of them are quite comically missing the point of my letters. I even have examples of letters I wrote back explaining why their response was useless. In this example I sent about 100 letters, and received less than 40 replies, with only 2 responces that -maybe- could be made by someone who actually read my letters. Or just better boilerplates. I did this experiment in 2018, so I might try again this year, and actually keep track of the response rate. Email was even worse. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 3:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Why in the world would you want to save them? bill w > >> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w >>> >>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] ai politicians >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> spike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri May 8 22:25:11 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 15:25:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Closing subways Message-ID: spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > My suggestion is to stop all public mass transit, all buses, taxis, > trains, subways, everything. Then, everyone else goes back to work and > business. I know that still leaves a lot of people out of work and out of > luck. I get that. I don?t have all the answers. But I have that one: > public transit is the bad guy here, Spike, this is total nonsense. It's the damn virus, not public transport that is the bad guy. Unless a treatment or a vaccine comes along, the only effect of crowing people together is to speed up how fast the virus burns through the population. (Assuming we can't control the infection spread.) Right now it is the poor who live and work in crowded places who are getting hit, but eventually, it will burn through those segments of the population then move on to upper economic classes. NYC grew up on public transport. There is no way to get around public transport short of abandoning the city. If we wanted to do something useful, we would be thinking about inexpensive ways to keep people from inhaling the virus particles. There are certainly expensive ways to do it, a battery-powered personal air filter system goes for about $1800. Keith From rahmans at me.com Fri May 8 22:58:09 2020 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 00:58:09 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: > >>> ?In your view, if printing more money to pay off debts is an option (poof, debt disappears in a puff of smoke (just give the unemployed their former pay)) why aren?t we doing that? > > spike > > >> On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > >> ?I don?t have a good answer to that because that?s essentially what we?re doing?SR Ballard > > Clearly not enough. If all we need to do is print money, then we should not be paying taxes. We should just print the money that would have been paid in taxes. > > It is remarkable no one discovered this marvelous theory before now. > > spike > Fiscal discipline is indeed something that helps maintain the value of our money. In that situation we quite literally trust that our money is being well spent. We all know that turning on an endless firehose of money is the financial equivalent of a ?perpetual motion machine?. But isn?t that what has been going on for decades of deficits? And NOW you want some fiscal responsibility? There is another flip side to fiscal responsibility, paying taxes. The whole deficit spending/?perpetual motion machine?/Ponzi economics which endorses bailouts for corporations simultaneously doesn?t tax them. Win-win, in the sense that the corporations win twice. Quite literally ?less is more?, the government will be better off by not having THEIR money. (It?ll trickle down and magically multiply! Ponzi much?) Deficit spending *SHOULD* be reserved for crises like the present pandemic. We have been running deficits for decades all the while income inequality has been increasing. In a country with all the technology, resources, and food that the US has, somehow people can?t manage a couple months of quarantine? It isn?t because the US can?t it?s because the US won?t. The defence production act, CDC guidelines, Pandemic task forces, stockpiles of masks and ventilators. It was all in place until the ?make government small enough small enough so that we can drown it in a bathtub? crowd deliberately got rid of it all. That?s been the clearly articulated plan for a long time, it wasn?t a secret. As I write this there is the second confirmed case of covid-19 in the President and Vice-President?s staff. For a supposed germaphobe Trump has been rather blas? about the whole thing; I wonder how President "I don?t need to wear a mask to the mask factory.? Trump will react tomorrow. Maybe, just maybe, he?ll start to act systematically to implement the plans that were put in place years ago after countless hours of scientific research. Who the hell am I kidding, he?ll probably be tweet storming about deep state conspiracies to infect him. And urging people to pick up guns rather than masks. Here?s another economic equations for you all: as the value of a gun in one hand goes up the value of money in the other hand goes down. If you think the economic situation is bad just wait until some bunch of paranoid ?Liberate State XYZ? protesters start using those weapons that they bring. Does anyone want to give me some sort of over/under on the if vs. when of one of the protests ?going loud?? Put down the guns: that way I?ll have more trust that you won?t shoot me. Put on a mask: that way I?ll have more trust you won?t infect me. More trust = more money. It is so so simple really, Omar Rahman From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 8 23:19:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 18:19:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: <715C2207-BE32-491F-BB32-F9358CC61281@gmail.com> References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> <715C2207-BE32-491F-BB32-F9358CC61281@gmail.com> Message-ID: They are only interested in money from their constituents. So you could write a letter requesting reasons why you should donate some of your lottery winnings (that will get their attention - you have big bucks) to the representative. OK, so you are lying. They probably tell more lies in a day than you do in three months. If might be fun! bill w On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It seems odd, but makes sense in context. > > The one from the Pope?s secretary, one Paolo -BORGIA- I keep for > sentimental reasons. > > Everything else is to answer the questions, ?Well, why don?t you just > write your representatives? That?ll make things change.? > > I also keep a copy of the letter I sent them. Some of them are quite > comically missing the point of my letters. I even have examples of letters > I wrote back explaining why their response was useless. > > In this example I sent about 100 letters, and received less than 40 > replies, with only 2 responces that -maybe- could be made by someone who > actually read my letters. Or just better boilerplates. > > I did this experiment in 2018, so I might try again this year, and > actually keep track of the response rate. > > Email was even worse. > > SR Ballard > > On May 8, 2020, at 3:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Why in the world would you want to save them? bill w > > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w >> >> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> *From:* extropy-chat *On >>> Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai politicians >>> >>> >>> >>> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually >>> composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have >>> even read them. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it >>> could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most >>> part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the >>> subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion >>> letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a >>> state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 8 23:32:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 16:32:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009701d62590$f5de1920$e19a4b60$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Omar Rahman via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > >>> ... if printing more money to pay off debts is an option why aren't we doing that? > > spike >...Deficit spending *SHOULD* be reserved for crises like the present pandemic... Omar Omar, I couldn't have said it better. That was the most profound comment posted on this entire thread. spike From sparge at gmail.com Fri May 8 23:36:08 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 19:36:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] US debt (was: Even India and Haiti do it better) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020, 7:00 PM Omar Rahman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > We all know that turning on an endless firehose of money is the financial > equivalent of a ?perpetual motion machine?. But isn?t that what has been > going on for decades of deficits? And NOW you want some fiscal > responsibility? > No, we had four years of surpluses from '98 to '01. And many of us have been calling for balanced budgets for decades. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Sat May 9 01:17:28 2020 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 18:17:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] map of covid cases In-Reply-To: <006401d6257c$0fd7ed70$2f87c850$@rainier66.com> References: <006401d6257c$0fd7ed70$2f87c850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: does this site allow me to know if there is a confirmed case in my building when I researched in the sight it said confirmed one does that mean it has one case here On Fri, May 8, 2020, 2:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > This map from the Johns Hopkins site is very informative. The map below > is about 100 km side to side, so think of it as a 50 km radius from the > statue of liberty. > > > > At this scale it is hard to see, but this is the Covid-19 epicenter of the > USA, the mouth of the Hudson River. > > > > https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map > > > > > > > > The worst county is Queens, to the right of the harbor where the Statue of > Liberty stands. Cook county is in Chicago. Kings is to the west of > Queens. Bronx is north of Queens. Nassau is east of Queens. Suffolk > county is everything out to the east on Long Island. Westchester county is > the next one north of Bronx. Los Angeles county gets in there, then New > York county. > > > > You wouldn?t be very far off if you said the Statue of Liberty is ground > zero for Covid in the US, and those are counties around there are the ones > most dependent on mass transit. > > > > I know it isn?t a good solution and doesn?t work for everyone, but it is > clear enough what needs to happen. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 65678 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 65678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 04:21:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 21:21:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] recorder ring Message-ID: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> Perhaps some data hipsters can educate me. We have a debate currently on what should be the standard of evidence when a student accuses another student of improprieties of any kind. It seems like men are inherently vulnerable to accusation which doesn't need proof (because usually there isn't any.) We could imagine some kind of device students could wear which would archive their location and record bits of sound, say a tenth of a second every second should be enough for what I have in mind. It is unlikely to be able to reconstruct a conversation from that, but it could establish innocence of an accused person by archiving a location and a background noise description (roughly.) This device would need to be something one wouldn't take off when taking things off, such as a ring. It would need a Bluetooth transmitter to send digital files to a phone (which would add location info and archive.) If we could get enough students wearing these kinds of devices, it might lead us out of a deadlock where we don't know how much weight to put on accusations. The accused could produce evidence. I don't know what kind of data-storage capacity such a thing would require, if the phone could dump info to a desktop computer each day. Any hipsters on that here? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 03:54:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 20:54:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] brittle systems Message-ID: <013701d625b5$873da240$95b8e6c0$@rainier66.com> We have long known the extended metropolis areas have grown dependent on brittle subsystems, such as mass transit in New York and Chicago. OK so we saw that system shattered. We recognize there are no good solutions to it: the city grew up on mass transit and needs it, even after it is clear that these systems make social distancing is impossible for the passengers. There?s no clear way to break the habit. The current emergency has pointed out other weak spots, such as nursing homes. I am now thinking we have other brittle systems we don?t even know about yet. Any ideas what will be the next one to be revealed? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat May 9 09:04:36 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:04:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41ce6cb7-9243-15e0-0a95-3d6e6f6c004c@zaiboc.net> On 08/05/2020 21:04, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > I'm confident that omitting data from the original body won't have > any > significant effect on an uploaded mind. Apart from vague statements > about the body contributing to our consciousness, or our minds > 'extending into' the body, I've not heard of any evidence, or > convincing > theory, to the contrary. > > > A lengthy article about exactly this topic came across my inbox just > today.? (I'm not sure if it's paywalled; please let me know if you > can't read it.) > https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/meet-psychobiome-gut-bacteria-may-alter-how-you-think-feel-and-act > Summary: Microbes prompt neuropod cells in the gut lining to stimulate the vagus nerve, which connects directly to the brain. More indirectly, microbes? activate enteroendocrine cells in the gut lining, which send hormones throughout the body. Even more indirectly, gut microbes influence immune cells and inflammation, which can affect the brain. Yes, I'm familiar with the concept. The microbiome indirectly provides another set of inputs to the brain. Doesn't change my argument (all these things 'connect to' or 'affect' the brain. So do our muscle spindles, pressure sensors in the skin, semi-circular canals, etc., etc. It doesn't matter). I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the coeliac plexus (solar plexus), which is sometimes referred to as our 'second brain' (a wild exaggeration, as it's nowhere near as large or complex as the brain). It controls the digestive system, acting as a sub-brain, in a similar way, as far as I understand, to the cerebellum does with respect to movement (although not in its structure or effective size). I very much doubt it's important for uploading, though. I think that, as far as my solar plexus has contributed to my personality, I'd be happy to have a 'standard model' version substituted for my actual one in an upload. I've not yet heard a single good reason why more than the brain is needed for successful upldoading (when the information from the brain is combined with a default virtual body model (which only needs to be created once, then slight variations of it could be made available to everyone), and the whole thing is provided with a suitable virtual external environment (which we already have many examples of)). -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat May 9 09:13:52 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 02:13:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] recorder ring In-Reply-To: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> References: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Google Earth/Maps already tracks your location passively - and tries to promote it as a service. Get the kinds of smartphones that college kids carry around constantly, more accurate GPSes that work indoors, and your idea becomes close to reality. On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 9:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Perhaps some data hipsters can educate me. > > > > We have a debate currently on what should be the standard of evidence when > a student accuses another student of improprieties of any kind. It seems > like men are inherently vulnerable to accusation which doesn?t need proof > (because usually there isn?t any.) > > > > We could imagine some kind of device students could wear which would > archive their location and record bits of sound, say a tenth of a second > every second should be enough for what I have in mind. It is unlikely to > be able to reconstruct a conversation from that, but it could establish > innocence of an accused person by archiving a location and a background > noise description (roughly.) > > > > This device would need to be something one wouldn?t take off when taking > things off, such as a ring. It would need a Bluetooth transmitter to send > digital files to a phone (which would add location info and archive.) > > > > If we could get enough students wearing these kinds of devices, it might > lead us out of a deadlock where we don?t know how much weight to put on > accusations. The accused could produce evidence. > > > > I don?t know what kind of data-storage capacity such a thing would > require, if the phone could dump info to a desktop computer each day. Any > hipsters on that here? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 09:56:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 05:56:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 7:00 PM Omar Rahman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > Deficit spending *SHOULD* be reserved for crises like the present > pandemic.* > Deficit spending is especially important in a crisis like this, whatever negative impact it may have it's insignificant compared with the harm caused by not doing it. I think Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal saved the nation from a Communist or Fascist revolution, during the Great Depression people wouldn't have stood for a federal government that just watched and did nothing as they starved to death, and that's pretty much what most republicans of the era recommended. Some things never change. > *We have been running deficits for decades* For nearly 2 centuries actually interrupted only by the Clinton years. > *all the while income inequality has been increasing.* Not just increasing but accelerating. As I have said before one way or another that trend will NOT continue and some endings are more unpleasant than others. The super mega ultra rich are fools if they ignore that. * > As I write this there is the second confirmed case of covid-19 in the > President and Vice-President?s staff. For a supposed germaphobe Trump has > been rather blas? about the whole thing;* If Trump doesn't get sick we will have final definitive proof that there is no God. > *> I wonder how President "I don?t need to wear a mask to the mask > factory.? Trump will react tomorrow.* When Trump visited the mask factory without wearing a mask and recommended everything reopen the song "Live And Let Die" was playing in the background. The symbolism was perfect! * > Who the hell am I kidding, he?ll probably be tweet storming about deep > state conspiracies to infect him. * I predict he's going to start saying the official death numbers from COVID-19 are fake news and it's all just a liberal conspiracy from the deep state and actually there is no virus at all. But it's still all China's fault for starting the virus. And it's all Obama's fault for not having developed a test for COVID-19, the fact that the virus didn't even exist when he was in power is no excuse. By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 12:48:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 05:48:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?If Trump doesn't get sick we will have final definitive proof that there is no God? Are there any others besides him you would like to see die? >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. Is that what you intend? Do you see why your bitter commentary does the opposite of its face value? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 13:52:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:52:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> the overall signal is clear enough: infections per capita are all about > population density. * The population of Seoul South Korea is 9.7 million and has a area of 234 square miles giving a population density of 41 thousand per square mile. New York City has a population of 8.4 million and a area of 469 square miles giving a population density of 18 thousand per square miles. So the population of Seoul is 2.28 times denser than New York City. > *The hardest-hit areas are those dependent on mass transit.* Seoul's subway system is almost as long as New York's, 220 miles versus 236 miles, and Seoul has a much higher annual ridership, 2837 million versus 1680 million. South Korea reported its first case of COVID-19 on the same day the US did, and 7 weeks ago both countries had the same number of deaths from it, but today 26,358 people in New York City have died of COVID-19 but in all of South Korea (not just Seoul) there have only been 256 deaths. So Spike, your theory just doesn't fit the facts, and when a theory doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat May 9 13:38:49 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 09:38:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] map of covid cases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <192ba5e938f6fcb89d1cece466732217@ultimax.com> How does the reader know that the Navajo Nation is the worst hit in the country? Because the Din? dwell in three of the four states around the Four Corners area (clockwise: NM, AZ, UT, but not CO). https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map Sure enough, you can see the cutout from 12 to 3 o'clock, which is the Colorado quadrant of Four Corners. That's the tell. You'd have to have worked there to know this. My poor clients. (I've been doing big solar for the Din? on and off for the last decade.) Well, Spike, thanks for sharing, anyway. K3 PS. Happy V-E Day, btw. 75th anniversary. If I wasn't so preoccupied by the pandemic, I'd have paid more attention to historical mile posts... On Fri, 8 May 2020, wrote: . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Date: 14:03:00 -0700 > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Cc: > Subject: [ExI] > > https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:15:38 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:15:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] religion again Message-ID: "Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God." Lenny Bruce "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Napoleon bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:19:09 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:19:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 8:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the >> beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark > > > > *John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. * > I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk of opening up and getting back to normal it might be relevant to remember that people are suffering and dying right now, and Trump's idea would make it much worse. And I'm not likely to be cheering the virus when I could very well become Trump's next victim. And the new number is 78,701. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:25:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:25:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] schools, was: RE: Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d62547$91c1ef00$b545cd00$@rainier66.com> <01c201d6255f$d98ff760$8cafe620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The problem with comparing Koreans and people from New York City is the difference between Asians in general and Americans in general. National character matters. Asian are raised to conform and not stick out, not even raising your hand in class to ask a question because that calls attention to yourself. So, whatever the masses are doing, that's what Asians want to do. Americans are individualists and conformity is anathema - at least comparatively speaking. Just give us a rule and we'll find a way around it. "Don't tell me what to do!" Contrarians teem. bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 8:55 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> the overall signal is clear enough: infections per capita are all about >> population density. * > > > The population of Seoul South Korea is 9.7 million and has a area of 234 > square miles giving a population density of 41 thousand per square mile. > New York City has a population of 8.4 million and a area of 469 square > miles giving a population density of 18 thousand per square miles. So the > population of Seoul is 2.28 times denser than New York City. > > > *The hardest-hit areas are those dependent on mass transit.* > > > Seoul's subway system is almost as long as New York's, 220 miles versus > 236 miles, and Seoul has a much higher annual ridership, 2837 million > versus 1680 million. > > South Korea reported its first case of COVID-19 on the same day the US did > , and 7 weeks ago both countries had the same number of deaths from it, > but today 26,358 people in New York City have died of COVID-19 but in all > of South Korea (not just Seoul) there have only been 256 deaths. > > So Spike, your theory just doesn't fit the facts, and when a theory > doesn't fit the facts it must be abandoned. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:26:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:26:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:18 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: "Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to > God." Lenny Bruce > > "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Napoleon > "The gods offer no rewards for intellect. There was never one yet that showed any interest in it." Mark Twain John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 14:43:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 07:43:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. >?I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable? Does it make you comfortable? It feels like you are trying to leverage a crisis into an opportunity. >?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. It can advise, but governors have a lot more authority, counties and cities make the final call. So why keep focusing attention up where it doesn?t do much good? From what I can tell, this is mostly a county-level leadership issue, where county health departments make the call. That is what is going on in California: the counties with the biggest cities are setting the strictest standards. That causes problems for those of us who don?t live in those cities, but out here in the suburbs. If presidents are really that important, I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that? >?of opening up and getting back to normal it might be relevant to remember that people are suffering and dying right now, and Trump's idea would make it much worse? Trump doesn?t make the call on that. Never let a good crisis go to waste? >?And I'm not likely to be cheering the virus when I could very well become Trump's next victim. And the new number is 78,701. John K Clark May you escape all illness John. May we all. We cannot effectively make nation-level rules that apply to everyone. Even state level is difficult, with a perfect example being New York. That is a state completely dominated by the city. Most of New York is rural, with plenty of people who do not get paid if their businesses stay closed because of rules designed for the city. They are pissed. They want to re-open, and they should if they can do it safely. They don?t have subways, they don?t have high-rise condos out there. A lot of upstate New York is as sparsely populated as the Midwest. There are co-factors in New York city with the mass transit: they have the tall buildings. I haven?t heard of studies on whether people who live and work in those buildings but I would think that is what we should be examining. It makes sense to me that people in there share hallways, offices, breath each others? air. In about a dozen locations, we have created a system inherently vulnerable to contagion. I see no good way to undo that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat May 9 15:01:36 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 08:01:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <534A75B6-F084-4A87-9887-F2C8B5EA55A1@gmail.com> On May 9, 2020, at 7:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > "Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God." Lenny Bruce > > "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Napoleon > > bill w ?A man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle?. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 15:21:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 08:21:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616? John K Clark John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. >>?I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable? >?Does it make you comfortable? ?spike Note the title of this thread. According to this site, the doubling time of cases in the USA is 23 days. The doubling time in Sweden (the country which never shut down) is 22 days. https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases The countries which this thread title claims do it better: Haiti, has a doubling time of 12 days, and India has a doubling time of 11 days: Do explain please, what Haiti and India are doing better? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 15:24:05 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:24:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: <534A75B6-F084-4A87-9887-F2C8B5EA55A1@gmail.com> References: <534A75B6-F084-4A87-9887-F2C8B5EA55A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Shame - stealing from the feminists. bill w > > ?A man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle?. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 15:25:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 10:25:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yea!! I am going back to my barber next week. I will be very interested to see what 6 foot scissors look like. bill On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 9:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > >? By the way, the new death number for America is 78,616. and at the > beginning of March the number was zero. John K Clark > > *John, this makes it sound like you are cheering for the virus. * > > > > >?I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable? > > > > Does it make you comfortable? It feels like you are trying to leverage a > crisis into an opportunity. > > > > >?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus > about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? > > > > The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. It can advise, > but governors have a lot more authority, counties and cities make the final > call. So why keep focusing attention up where it doesn?t do much good? > From what I can tell, this is mostly a county-level leadership issue, where > county health departments make the call. That is what is going on in > California: the counties with the biggest cities are setting the strictest > standards. That causes problems for those of us who don?t live in those > cities, but out here in the suburbs. > > > > If presidents are really that important, I don?t see you posting curses on > Xi Jinping. Why is that? > > > > >?of opening up and getting back to normal it might be relevant to > remember that people are suffering and dying right now, and Trump's idea > would make it much worse? > > > > Trump doesn?t make the call on that. Never let a good crisis go to waste? > > > > >?And I'm not likely to be cheering the virus when I could very well > become Trump's next victim. And the new number is 78,701. John K Clark > > > > May you escape all illness John. May we all. > > > > We cannot effectively make nation-level rules that apply to everyone. > Even state level is difficult, with a perfect example being New York. That > is a state completely dominated by the city. Most of New York is rural, > with plenty of people who do not get paid if their businesses stay closed > because of rules designed for the city. They are pissed. They want to > re-open, and they should if they can do it safely. They don?t have > subways, they don?t have high-rise condos out there. A lot of upstate New > York is as sparsely populated as the Midwest. > > > > There are co-factors in New York city with the mass transit: they have the > tall buildings. I haven?t heard of studies on whether people who live and > work in those buildings but I would think that is what we should be > examining. It makes sense to me that people in there share hallways, > offices, breath each others? air. In about a dozen locations, we have > created a system inherently vulnerable to contagion. I see no good way to > undo that. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat May 9 16:02:41 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:02:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The ?fish without a bicycle? trope predates Irina Dunn?s catchphrase (which was later popularized by Gloria Steinem). I don?t think this tells the whole story, but see: https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a-woman-needs-a-man-like-a-fish-needs-a-bicycle.html Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst On May 9, 2020, at 8:31 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > Shame - stealing from the feminists. bill w >> >> ?A man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle?. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 16:15:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:15:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <010e01d6261b$7c6fc300$754f4900$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> <00f801d6261a$470f7990$d52e6cb0$@rainier66.com> <010e01d6261b$7c6fc300$754f4900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014b01d6261d$1497d450$3dc77cf0$@rainier66.com> This comment just came out minutes ago: MUSD, City continues to provide resources to support emotional, physical, and mental wellbeing Milpitas, CA ? May 9, 2020 ? FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE On May 7, 2020, Governor Newsom announced upcoming changes to the statewide stay-at-home order, emphasizing that science, data, and public health will be used to determine safe reopening or relaxing of the order. Local conditions will take precedence over the statewide order, and more restrictive orders or guidelines by a city or county will need to be followed in that area. For more information please visit the State of California?s Resilience Roadmap ? {local school board} In California, the governor announced yesterday that the state budget has taken a horrendous hit. He runs a big enough state that he already knows the Fed cannot help, and he knows he can?t keep the state closed. He also knows he has taxation options the Fed doesn?t have (he can get the legislature to raise sales tax, income tax and gas tax as high as necessary (but not property tax (yaaay Prop 13!))) The governor already knows that some counties and cities have told him to go to hell with his restrictions, and there just isn?t much he can do about it. Some rural north California counties have already opened up everything except public schools. This school board announcement makes it clear that the county and city governments make the final call. Santa Clara county is taking a hardline stay-closed stance over state requirements announced yesterday. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat May 9 16:16:33 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 17:16:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] religion again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64af9b51-eabe-19c7-f3df-88dfcb4522b6@zaiboc.net> > "Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to > God."? Lenny Bruce > > "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."? Napoleon > > bill w Every day, people are abandoning religion and waking up to reality. Perhaps the rich should be worried! -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 16:46:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 12:46:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *It feels like you are trying to leverage a crisis into an opportunity.* > I know it's not politically correct to say but I think if somebody can profit from a tragedy, or turn a crisis into a opportunity, or turn a lemon into lemonade, or in general find a way to extract a little good from something very bad then that would be nothing to be ashamed of, in fact I'd say it would be a very Extropian thing to do, at least in Max's original meaning of the word. >> ?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus >> about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? > > > > *> The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. * > If sure doesn't as long as Trump is running the show, although you can be certain that whenever something good happens Trump will claim 100% of the credit, and when something bad happens he will claim that's not his department and blame governors or mayors or China or above all blame Barack Obama. The sign on Trump's desk says "The Buck Stops Anywhere But Here". > > *I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that?* > Because my Chinese paymasters wouldn't like it obviously. >?of opening up and getting back to normal it might be relevant to remember >> that people are suffering and dying right now, and Trump's idea would make >> it much worse? > > > > > *> Trump doesn?t make the call on that. * > Trump very strongly disagrees: When somebody is president of the United States, the authority is total *> May you escape all illness John.* And you too Spike. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 18:48:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 11:48:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > It feels like you are trying to leverage a crisis into an opportunity. >?I know it's not politically correct to say but I think if somebody can profit from a tragedy, or turn a crisis into a opportunity, or turn a lemon into lemonade, or in general find a way to extract a little good from something very bad then that would be nothing to be ashamed of? If a tragedy is used to seize political power, that isn?t turning a tragedy to an opportunity, it is turning it into a greater tragedy. It causes increased distrust. John it worked in this case: people who read your posts don?t trust your judgement or your cause. Some of us think it is an elaborate false flag attack rather than the totalitarian manifesto it appears to be. Plenty of us know what really happened here: this virus jumped from bats to humans in Wuhan, China attempted to contain it while covering it up, foreign nationals became infected, it got loose, spread across the globe, governments were ineffective in stopping it, regardless of what they did or didn?t do, hundreds of thousands have died and many more will. This is not an opportunity to profit, it is a tragedy. Any political leader who uses this tragedy as an opportunity to seize power is never to be trusted. Vote em out. >? in fact I'd say it would be a very Extropian thing to do, at least in Max's original meaning of the word? I very much disagree. Using the Covid pandemic to promote any political view is deplorable, even libertarianism, which is why I haven?t gone there. Libertarianism, where it exists, didn?t stop this, no brand of political thought seems to have made much difference in the long run. The virus doesn?t know or care what political party is in charge. >> ?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this virus about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? > The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. >?If sure doesn't as long as Trump is running the show? Doubling down will not help. The pandemic was not a failing of any politician or political philosophy other than China, but it certainly pointed out some really obvious vulnerabilities not connected directly to politics: we have built cities that are inherently vulnerable to this sort of thing. We don?t even know what other vulnerabilities have quietly evolved, but I suspect we have more of them. Persistently running a federal-level deficit creates a situation where the Federal government cannot respond effectively in an actual emergency. Deficits and borrowing are for emergencies, not for standard operations. >? when something bad happens he will claim that's not his department and blame governors or mayors or China? Not governors, not mayors, not his department, YES CHINA! Yes China damn sure is to blame, you bet your ass they are at fault here, grievously so. China kept this quiet, hoping to contain it, which put the entire planet at risk. They influenced the World Health Organization to assure governments all over Europe to keep their borders open too long. China is to blame for that. No government has been able to contain this outbreak, not one. Some delayed it a little, but none stopped it. China externalized risk to the entire planet, and we are all paying the devastating price. Economies everywhere will be crushed, regardless of what form of government they have, every country, everywhere. The virus was late getting to Africa, but the overall crushing impact will likely be worse there: they have fewer resources with which to resist. The total death toll may get dramatically worse. Those nations with 2 and 3 day doubling times are mostly in Africa. Oh mercy. >> I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that? >?Because my Chinese paymasters wouldn't like it obviously? If we could be absolutely sure you don?t have actual Chinese paymasters, we would take that as satire. China did this to us, specifically President Xi, and John you posted comments defending Xi as late as March 17. He was the one who issued orders to keep it quiet, then threatened anyone who would warn the world in time to do something useful. Oh shameful was that deplorable act. Xi is to blame more than anyone anywhere at any time. His decisions and catastrophic actions have killed hundreds of thousands and devastated economies everywhere. >> Trump doesn?t make the call on that. >?Trump very strongly disagrees: When somebody is president of the United States, the authority is total If anything good comes of all this tragedy, it educates politicians that their power is limited, intentionally so. POTUS has been schooled on that, now governors have been reminded of that, and so on, all the way down. They can issue their orders, but at some point we, the people will do what we need to do in order to save our businesses and livelihood. The USA is a nation which was born in rebellion against tyranny. It is in our national DNA, it is in our constitution, it is the reason we are a special case country. We intentionally limit government power, for a reason: power corrupts. > May you escape all illness John. >?And you too Spike. John K Clark May we all. Let?s hope this data from China is accurate (I don?t believe it is (but I am hoping so with every fiber of my being.)) If it is true, in a couple of months we can expect the pandemic to tail off to nothing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat May 9 19:35:16 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 12:35:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] brittle systems In-Reply-To: <013701d625b5$873da240$95b8e6c0$@rainier66.com> References: <013701d625b5$873da240$95b8e6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <112C0546-4480-49FC-8FDF-58F2C2C1B695@gmail.com> On May 8, 2020, at 10:05 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > We have long known the extended metropolis areas have grown dependent on brittle subsystems, such as mass transit in New York and Chicago. OK so we saw that system shattered. We recognize there are no good solutions to it: the city grew up on mass transit and needs it, even after it is clear that these systems make social distancing is impossible for the passengers. There?s no clear way to break the habit. > > The current emergency has pointed out other weak spots, such as nursing homes. I am now thinking we have other brittle systems we don?t even know about yet. Any ideas what will be the next one to be revealed? A complicated topic, but I believe two things make cities brittle in the US: city planning and zoning. There?s a long history of both and the latter was especially used to segregate along racial and class lines. Redlining is an example. These tend to make cities brittle by forcing allocation and growth into what?s preferred by whomever controls the planning and zoning apparatus. (And it?s a fool?s errand to believe this apparatus is either necessary or can be tamed to benefit all. They grew from and exist to serve an oligarchy.) Also, federal promotion of highways created strong incentives to adopt the car for transporting people and the truck for goods on regional and national level. By the way, there are some good discussion of these issues and what to do about them amongst market urbaniste. See, for instance: https://marketurbanism.com/ And also: https://marketurbanismreport.com/ Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 20:14:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 15:14:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The pandemic was not a failing of any politician or political philosophy other than China, spike Just one nit: The White House knew of the virus in January if I recall correctly, while millions of masks, ventilators and other equipment were sold to China. Hard to say who to blame, but clearly the White House is to blame. No? bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 1:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *It feels like you are trying to leverage a crisis into an opportunity.* > > > > >?I know it's not politically correct to say but I think if somebody can > profit from a tragedy, or turn a crisis into a opportunity, or turn a lemon > into lemonade, or in general find a way to extract a little good from > something very bad then that would be nothing to be ashamed of? > > > > If a tragedy is used to seize political power, that isn?t turning a > tragedy to an opportunity, it is turning it into a greater tragedy. It > causes increased distrust. John it worked in this case: people who read > your posts don?t trust your judgement or your cause. Some of us think it > is an elaborate false flag attack rather than the totalitarian manifesto it > appears to be. > > > > Plenty of us know what really happened here: this virus jumped from bats > to humans in Wuhan, China attempted to contain it while covering it up, > foreign nationals became infected, it got loose, spread across the globe, > governments were ineffective in stopping it, regardless of what they did or > didn?t do, hundreds of thousands have died and many more will. This is not > an opportunity to profit, it is a tragedy. > > > > Any political leader who uses this tragedy as an opportunity to seize > power is never to be trusted. Vote em out. > > > > >? in fact I'd say it would be a very Extropian thing to do, at least in > Max's original meaning of the word? > > > > I very much disagree. Using the Covid pandemic to promote any political > view is deplorable, even libertarianism, which is why I haven?t gone > there. Libertarianism, where it exists, didn?t stop this, no brand of > political thought seems to have made much difference in the long run. The > virus doesn?t know or care what political party is in charge. > > > > > > >> ?to be reminded of the grim reality that an American dies of this > virus about every 49 seconds, but with all Trump's grandiose talk? > > *> **The Federal government doesn?t have the final say on that. * > > > > >?If sure doesn't as long as Trump is running the show? > > > > Doubling down will not help. The pandemic was not a failing of any > politician or political philosophy other than China, but it certainly > pointed out some really obvious vulnerabilities not connected directly to > politics: we have built cities that are inherently vulnerable to this sort > of thing. We don?t even know what other vulnerabilities have quietly > evolved, but I suspect we have more of them. Persistently running a > federal-level deficit creates a situation where the Federal government > cannot respond effectively in an actual emergency. Deficits and borrowing > are for emergencies, not for standard operations. > > > > >? when something bad happens he will claim that's not his department and > blame governors or mayors or China? > > > > Not governors, not mayors, not his department, YES CHINA! Yes China damn > sure is to blame, you bet your ass they are at fault here, grievously so. > China kept this quiet, hoping to contain it, which put the entire planet at > risk. They influenced the World Health Organization to assure governments > all over Europe to keep their borders open too long. China is to blame for > that. > > > > No government has been able to contain this outbreak, not one. Some > delayed it a little, but none stopped it. China externalized risk to the > entire planet, and we are all paying the devastating price. Economies > everywhere will be crushed, regardless of what form of government they > have, every country, everywhere. > > > > The virus was late getting to Africa, but the overall crushing impact will > likely be worse there: they have fewer resources with which to resist. The > total death toll may get dramatically worse. Those nations with 2 and 3 > day doubling times are mostly in Africa. Oh mercy. > > > > > > >> *I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that?* > > > > >?Because my Chinese paymasters wouldn't like it obviously? > > > > If we could be absolutely sure you don?t have actual Chinese paymasters, > we would take that as satire. China did this to us, specifically President > Xi, and John you posted comments defending Xi as late as March 17. He was > the one who issued orders to keep it quiet, then threatened anyone who > would warn the world in time to do something useful. Oh shameful was that > deplorable act. Xi is to blame more than anyone anywhere at any time. His > decisions and catastrophic actions have killed hundreds of thousands and > devastated economies everywhere. > > > > *>> **Trump doesn?t make the call on that. * > > > > >?Trump very strongly disagrees: > > > > When somebody is president of the United States, the authority is total > > > > > If anything good comes of all this tragedy, it educates politicians that > their power is limited, intentionally so. POTUS has been schooled on that, > now governors have been reminded of that, and so on, all the way down. > They can issue their orders, but at some point we, the people will do what > we need to do in order to save our businesses and livelihood. > > > > The USA is a nation which was born in rebellion against tyranny. It is in > our national DNA, it is in our constitution, it is the reason we are a > special case country. We intentionally limit government power, for a > reason: power corrupts. > > > > > > *> **May you escape all illness John.* > > > > >?And you too Spike. John K Clark > > > > May we all. Let?s hope this data from China is accurate (I don?t believe > it is (but I am hoping so with every fiber of my being.)) If it is true, > in a couple of months we can expect the pandemic to tail off to nothing. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 20:22:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:22:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The countries which this thread title claims do it better: Haiti, has a > doubling time of 12 days, and India has a doubling time of 11 days: Do > explain please, what Haiti and India are doing better?* Only time can tell if either country ever reaches an infection rate equal to that of the USA, they have a long way to go, even if they get there they will have delayed the disease by at least 3 months and that's vitally important if a vaccine is near as Trump thinks and I really really hope. And Spike you haven't said how you feel about Human Challenge Trials, I think it's a good idea, a much better idea than injecting yourself with Clorox or stuffing 25,000 people into a basketball stadium so Trump can have another of his Nuremberg style rallies: *"in the not too distant future we'll have some massive rallies and people will be sitting next to each other. I can't imagine a rally where you have every fourth seat full, every six seats are empty for every one that you have full, that wouldn't look too good. No, I hope that we're going to be able to do some good old fashioned 25,000-person rallies where everyone's going wild because they love our country,"* we'll have some massive rallies and people will be sitting next to each other John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 20:48:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 13:48:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006201d62643$38bc7ef0$aa357cd0$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better The pandemic was not a failing of any politician or political philosophy other than China, spike Just one nit: The White House knew of the virus in January if I recall correctly, while millions of masks, ventilators and other equipment were sold to China. Hard to say who to blame, but clearly the White House is to blame. No? bill w https://www.state.gov/the-united-states-announces-assistance-to-combat-the-novel-coronavirus/ I can understand why the US donated those supplies particularly to China: it is completely dependent on China to loan the money to cover normal operating expenses. The US must be very very good to China, to keep those loans coming. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 20:55:39 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:55:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 4:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > Hard to say who to blame, but clearly the White House is to blame. No? Truman would say the buck stops with him, but Truman is long dead. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 21:08:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 14:08:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <00c401d62615$85898800$909c9800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007801d62645$f61d90e0$e258b2a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat ubject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > The countries which this thread title claims do it better: Haiti, has a doubling time of 12 days, and India has a doubling time of 11 days: Do explain please, what Haiti and India are doing better? >?Only time can tell if either country ever reaches an infection rate equal to that of the USA, they have a long way to go? With a doubling rate of 11 days, it won?t take long at all. >?And Spike you haven't said how you feel about Human Challenge Trials? John K Clark It is scary stuff, but I am in favor of Human Challenge trials, assuming it is administered by doctors to fully-cognizant patients who know they might get a placebo and will be exposed. Strong young people have about a 1% chance of dying, but plenty of people enlist in the military with higher risk. There are enough people I think would volunteer for that, knowing full well it might be the end of the road. I would not favor stopping the trial, even though it is ethically shaky as hell. The person to ask is Rafal. I will take his word on that, being as he faces ethical dilemmas every day, whereas we engineers never do. Possible middle ground: hold just a little longer to see if the pattern China is claiming will be seen elsewhere. Italy was one of the early countries to catch it (they think in December) so we can see if their case load starts to drop. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat May 9 21:10:45 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:10:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] recorder ring In-Reply-To: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> References: <015001d625b9$46e8aec0$d4ba0c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I don?t think that would help in most cases. If the location doesn?t match and/or the sound doesn?t match then it could be useful data. But the majority of rape accusations don?t involve these circumstances. The majority of rape accusations hinge on if a sexual act was consensual or not. How could this idea possibly help in these cases? SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 11:21 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Perhaps some data hipsters can educate me. > > We have a debate currently on what should be the standard of evidence when a student accuses another student of improprieties of any kind. It seems like men are inherently vulnerable to accusation which doesn?t need proof (because usually there isn?t any.) > > We could imagine some kind of device students could wear which would archive their location and record bits of sound, say a tenth of a second every second should be enough for what I have in mind. It is unlikely to be able to reconstruct a conversation from that, but it could establish innocence of an accused person by archiving a location and a background noise description (roughly.) > > This device would need to be something one wouldn?t take off when taking things off, such as a ring. It would need a Bluetooth transmitter to send digital files to a phone (which would add location info and archive.) > > If we could get enough students wearing these kinds of devices, it might lead us out of a deadlock where we don?t know how much weight to put on accusations. The accused could produce evidence. > > I don?t know what kind of data-storage capacity such a thing would require, if the phone could dump info to a desktop computer each day. Any hipsters on that here? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat May 9 21:12:03 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:12:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ai politicians In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d624f3$cdf2e9b0$69d8bd10$@rainier66.com> <028901d624f6$cf0a6cd0$6d1f4670$@rainier66.com> <715C2207-BE32-491F-BB32-F9358CC61281@gmail.com> Message-ID: It would probably be sufficient to say that I was willing to make a ?large? donation. SR Ballard > On May 8, 2020, at 6:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > They are only interested in money from their constituents. So you could write a letter requesting reasons why you should donate some of your lottery winnings (that will get their attention - you have big bucks) to the representative. OK, so you are lying. They probably tell more lies in a day than you do in three months. If might be fun! bill w > >> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> It seems odd, but makes sense in context. >> >> The one from the Pope?s secretary, one Paolo -BORGIA- I keep for sentimental reasons. >> >> Everything else is to answer the questions, ?Well, why don?t you just write your representatives? That?ll make things change.? >> >> I also keep a copy of the letter I sent them. Some of them are quite comically missing the point of my letters. I even have examples of letters I wrote back explaining why their response was useless. >> >> In this example I sent about 100 letters, and received less than 40 replies, with only 2 responces that -maybe- could be made by someone who actually read my letters. Or just better boilerplates. >> >> I did this experiment in 2018, so I might try again this year, and actually keep track of the response rate. >> >> Email was even worse. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On May 8, 2020, at 3:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> Why in the world would you want to save them? bill w >>> >>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> That?s what we already have. I have a binder of such letters. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>>> On May 8, 2020, at 8:40 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Is that what we want from our politicians - boilerplate? bill w >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 12:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] ai politicians >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Digital politician staff, perhaps. Do you think the politician actually composed those letters in the first place? Some of them might not have even read them. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I assumed they were done by low-level staffers. I am suggesting it could be completely automated. They probably already are for the most part. The staffer would skim the letter in a few seconds, pick up on the subject, then reply with the gun letter, the Covid letter, the abortion letter, that kind of thing. I don?t suppose real politicians above about a state representative reads letters from the proletatiat. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> spike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 21:28:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 17:28:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 2:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> people who read your posts don?t trust your judgement or your cause. > Some of us think it is an elaborate false flag attack rather than the > totalitarian manifesto it appears to be.* > If some of you think that then some of you are not very bright. Trump supporters believe all sorts of looney things, 52% think Obama was born in Kenya, and nearly half, 46%, think Hillary Clinton ran a child sex slave ring out of the basement of a Washington D.C. pizza parlor, although I'm not sure if "think" is the right word. And the poll was taken AFTER a Trump zombie armed with a assault rifle burst into the restaurant and demanded to see the basement. The restaurant has no basement. More relevant to the current situation and much scarier, despite all scientific knowledge to the contrary 31% of Trump voters think vaccines cause autism. > *> Plenty of us know what really happened here: this virus jumped from > bats to humans in Wuhan, China attempted to contain it while covering it > up, foreign nationals became infected, it got loose, spread across the > globe,* > I don't know if it came from bats or not but other than that I have no particular problem with the above. > > *governments were ineffective in stopping it,* > And some governments were much more ineffective than others, and some acted like failed states and didn't even try to stop the virus for 2 months. There is a reason the USA has 4% of the world's population but 33% of the people sick with COVID-19, and that reason is Donald J Trump. > *>Using the Covid pandemic to promote any political view is deplorable, > even libertarianism, which is why I haven?t gone there.* > It sure sounds like you're going there. You keep talking about how there should be no overall coordination in this war against the virus and every state city town village and household should be 100% free to do their own thing. I might agree if the virus had read the US Constitution and had agreed to abide to it, but I don't believe that is the case. *> Persistently running a federal-level deficit creates a situation where > the Federal government cannot respond effectively in an actual emergency. * > Apparently you think this problem started in 1835, I think it may have been a tad later. > >> *I don?t see you posting curses on Xi Jinping. Why is that?* > > > >?Because my Chinese paymasters wouldn't like it obviously? > > > > > *> If we could be absolutely sure you don?t have actual Chinese > paymasters, we would take that as satire. * > Satire? What satire comrade? Must stop now, have sex ring business to attend to in basement of restaurant with Hillary. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 22:16:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 18:16:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response Message-ID: This is why I'm so upset with Donald Trump: Trump's Coronavirus Response John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 22:29:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 15:29:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b501d62651$423d04f0$c6b70ed0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 2:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > people who read your posts don?t trust your judgement or your cause. Some of us think it is an elaborate false flag attack rather than the totalitarian manifesto it appears to be. >?If some of you think that then some of you are not very bright? Doubling down on insults, slung far and wide. Do you still not know What Happened? > governments were ineffective in stopping it, >?And some governments were much more ineffective than others? I don?t see that in the numbers. They all tend to converge in their per capita case load. >? that reason is Donald J Trump? Doubling down on using death to promote your political views? Do you still not know What Happened. >Using the Covid pandemic to promote any political view is deplorable, even libertarianism, which is why I haven?t gone there. >?It sure sounds like you're going there? I made it clear: the virus doesn?t know or care who is in charge or not in charge. It crosses borders, all of them. No form of government has been able to stop it. >? I might agree if the virus had read the US Constitution and had agreed to abide to it, but I don't believe that is the case? You have expressed contempt for the constitution openly. Now it feels like you are hoping the virus can help overthrow it. I am betting on the constitution. Human rights are not set aside for a virus. I recommend you start a political party, the anti-constitutionalists. > Persistently running a federal-level deficit creates a situation where the Federal government cannot respond effectively in an actual emergency. >?Apparently you think this problem started in 1835, I think it may have been a tad later? John K Clark If we can borrow indefinitely, why are we paying taxes at all? Why not just borrow it all? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 9 22:40:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 18:40:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b501d62651$423d04f0$c6b70ed0$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> <00b501d62651$423d04f0$c6b70ed0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 6:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>>> **people who read your posts don?t trust your judgement or your >>> cause. Some of us think it is an elaborate false flag attack rather than >>> the totalitarian manifesto it appears to be.* >> >> > >> >?If some of you think that then some of you are not very bright? > > > > *> Doubling down on insults, slung far and wide. Do you still not know > What Happened?* > So claiming I am a Chinese agent running a false flag operation and don't really believe in anything I say is not an insult?! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 22:45:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 15:45:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response This is why I'm so upset with Donald Trump: Trump's Coronavirus Response John K Clark Campaigning? Here? Why? John, I propose an experiment. Post to your friends offlist, people you trust, and ask them if they think you produced any anti-Trump sentiment. While there, ask if they think you produced any anti-telescope antipathy. Think about What Happened. If you wish to promote an idea or view, you need to be a bit more human. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 9 22:52:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 17:52:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I am surprised. Yes, we need to placate the Chinese, but not at the time of a coming pandemic, which clearly could be anticipated while we were selling those supplies to China. I truly hope that you are not supporting Trump on any of his handling of this mess. If any other president committed and omitted crucial elements I would be just as critical. Party is irrelevant.bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response > > > > This is why I'm so upset with Donald Trump: > > > > Trump's Coronavirus Response > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > Campaigning? > > > > Here? > > > > Why? > > > > John, I propose an experiment. Post to your friends offlist, people you > trust, and ask them if they think you produced any anti-Trump sentiment. > While there, ask if they think you produced any anti-telescope antipathy. > > > > Think about What Happened. If you wish to promote an idea or view, you > need to be a bit more human. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 9 23:41:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 16:41:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response Spike, I am surprised. Yes, we need to placate the Chinese, but not at the time of a coming pandemic, which clearly could be anticipated while we were selling those supplies to China. I truly hope that you are not supporting Trump on any of his handling of this mess. If any other president committed and omitted crucial elements I would be just as critical. Party is irrelevant.bill w BillW, as I understand it, the supplies were donated as foreign aid, on 20 Feb 2020. This Mother Jones article from 29 March criticizes Trump with this headline: The US Sent Tons of Medical Supplies to China Even as Senators Warned of Virus Threat Here https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-updates/2020/03/the-us-sent-tons-of-medical-supplies-to-china-even-as-senators-warned-of-virus-threat-here/ Five days later, Mother Jones followed up with this headline: APRIL 3, 2020 Trump Wants to Cut Off Masks to Everyone But Us https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/04/trump-wants-to-cut-off-masks-to-everyone-but-us/ I am seeing a pattern. There is disagreement among those struggling to leverage a political advantage out of a tragedy. BillW, this really isn?t about parties, with that I fully agree. You are right on: party is irrelevant. What is clear is that anyone in the office of POTUS, anyone, will be criticized for whatever they do. It doesn?t even matter who is there or what they do. I would think Mother Jones (no relation) would pick one side or the other, rather than take both sides, which are contradictory. Another example: there is a split between those who clamor for POTUS to keep everything locked down (which he does not have the authority to do) and those who clamor for him to open everything back up (which he does not have the authority to do.) POTUS has the authority to close borders and restrict international travel, which is still highly advisable in my view because aircraft and ocean liners are inherently dangerous for spreading viruses. Governors make the call on what stays closed, and even then, the governor is dependent on counties and cities to enforce the orders. The entire question sets up inherent tension between those who are still getting their paychecks and those who are not. Both are criticizing the guy who does not have the authority to either open the economy or keep it closed. Regarding defending Trump: that isn?t what I am doing. In the exactly one area I consider the very most important thing, the one area critical as all hell, I cannot tell a trace of difference between the two guys we will be voting for in November, nor can I tell any difference between the two mainstream parties. All the usual clamor over all the usual stuff, the guns, abortion, all of it is sound and fury, signifying nothing. We already know none of that stuff is going to change. It hasn?t changed in decades. To me, what really really matters is what the hell we are going to do if the lenders suddenly stop lending. We hear people say the lenders will never stop lending, well I don?t believe that. Or that we can just print more money, I don?t believe that either. Or we can just default on all government debts, I don?t believe that either. Or don?t worry about it, we can run deficits as high as we want because it will never be a crisis, since it has never been before since 1835, weeellll, I don?t believe that. If any of these simplistic solutions are viable, then we should be doing them now, rather than extracting taxes from the citizens or waiting for a still bigger crisis. I don?t think any of these ideas are viable. At some point we must face up to the bills we have run up. Omar commented that deficit spending should only be used in times of crisis, I do believe that with all my heart. Our collective and persistent failure on budgets will have consequences, severe ones. The current Covid crisis may bring that day of reckoning right to us, and it doesn?t matter which politician or party is in charge then. To me, the runaway debt is the only thing that really matters. I don?t hear Trump, or Biden or any one of those seeking that office talking about it at all. So to me, who wins in November is nearly irrelevant: neither candidate has any idea what to do about that debt, and it is unclear to me which one will be worse. I can?t even tell them apart on that. Can you? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 01:31:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 20:31:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If there's not much to choose between Trump and whoever, then I have to go with whoever,just on the basis of personality: mean (in the sense of small and petty as well as the usual meaning), narcissistic, power mad, dismissive of science (or just about anything else), pussy grabber (self-described), and a lot more, all bad or even worse. Not a person to present to the world as our leader. An embarrassment to say the very least. Just a disgusting human being. And we need balance in federal and Supreme Court justices. (Hang on Ginsburg! A Democrat is on the way! Cross my fingers, toes, etc.) As for the debt, I have been raving about it, not in this group, for many years. A few years I gave it up. Was I satisfied that people who know money are OK with it? Sorta. Do I see any end to it? No. Not in my lifetime. And you are getting to the point of raving about it, bringing it into any conversation. Are you preaching to the choir? Very likely. Almost certainly, with a few exceptions. bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 6:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response > > > > Spike, I am surprised. Yes, we need to placate the Chinese, but not at > the time of a coming pandemic, which clearly could be anticipated while we > were selling those supplies to China. I truly hope that you are not > supporting Trump on any of his handling of this mess. If any other > president committed and omitted crucial elements I would be just as > critical. Party is irrelevant.bill w > > > > > > > > > > BillW, as I understand it, the supplies were donated as foreign aid, on 20 > Feb 2020. > > > > This Mother Jones article from 29 March criticizes Trump with this > headline: > > > > *The US Sent Tons of Medical Supplies to China Even as Senators Warned of > Virus Threat Here* > > > > > https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-updates/2020/03/the-us-sent-tons-of-medical-supplies-to-china-even-as-senators-warned-of-virus-threat-here/ > > > > > > Five days later, Mother Jones followed up with this headline: > > > > APRIL 3, 2020 > > *Trump Wants to Cut Off Masks to Everyone But Us* > > > > > https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/04/trump-wants-to-cut-off-masks-to-everyone-but-us/ > > > > > > I am seeing a pattern. There is disagreement among those struggling to > leverage a political advantage out of a tragedy. BillW, this really isn?t > about parties, with that I fully agree. You are right on: party is > irrelevant. What is clear is that anyone in the office of POTUS, anyone, > will be criticized for whatever they do. It doesn?t even matter who is > there or what they do. > > > > I would think Mother Jones (no relation) would pick one side or the other, > rather than take both sides, which are contradictory. > > > > Another example: there is a split between those who clamor for POTUS to > keep everything locked down (which he does not have the authority to do) > and those who clamor for him to open everything back up (which he does not > have the authority to do.) POTUS has the authority to close borders and > restrict international travel, which is still highly advisable in my view > because aircraft and ocean liners are inherently dangerous for spreading > viruses. Governors make the call on what stays closed, and even then, the > governor is dependent on counties and cities to enforce the orders. > > > > The entire question sets up inherent tension between those who are still > getting their paychecks and those who are not. Both are criticizing the > guy who does not have the authority to either open the economy or keep it > closed. > > > > Regarding defending Trump: that isn?t what I am doing. In the exactly one > area I consider the very most important thing, the one area critical as all > hell, I cannot tell a trace of difference between the two guys we will be > voting for in November, nor can I tell any difference between the two > mainstream parties. All the usual clamor over all the usual stuff, the > guns, abortion, all of it is sound and fury, signifying nothing. We > already know none of that stuff is going to change. It hasn?t changed in > decades. > > > > To me, what really really matters is what the hell we are going to do if > the lenders suddenly stop lending. We hear people say the lenders will > never stop lending, well I don?t believe that. Or that we can just print > more money, I don?t believe that either. Or we can just default on all > government debts, I don?t believe that either. Or don?t worry about it, we > can run deficits as high as we want because it will never be a crisis, > since it has never been before since 1835, weeellll, I don?t believe that. > If any of these simplistic solutions are viable, then we should be doing > them now, rather than extracting taxes from the citizens or waiting for a > still bigger crisis. I don?t think any of these ideas are viable. At some > point we must face up to the bills we have run up. > > > > Omar commented that deficit spending should only be used in times of > crisis, I do believe that with all my heart. Our collective and persistent > failure on budgets will have consequences, severe ones. The current Covid > crisis may bring that day of reckoning right to us, and it doesn?t matter > which politician or party is in charge then. > > > > To me, the runaway debt is the only thing that really matters. I don?t > hear Trump, or Biden or any one of those seeking that office talking about > it at all. So to me, who wins in November is nearly irrelevant: neither > candidate has any idea what to do about that debt, and it is unclear to me > which one will be worse. I can?t even tell them apart on that. Can you? > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 01:42:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 20:42:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil Message-ID: Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to save money. Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep track of how long you've had it. I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. Bill W -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 03:04:59 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 22:04:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> > US Debt I don?t know if I see US debt as my main concern, but it definitely is a concern for me. I just can?t think of any solution that people can use (that is politically viable), so I tend to ignore it. I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. Or if we were at least making above-minimum payments. But taxes are notoriously unpopular. The only way to raise them, it seems, is to bait and switch. > Mother Jones I wouldn?t characterize the Magazine as a rag, but it is a good indicator of ?Left? thought in the US, which is composed of many different, competing streams of thought. The US ?Left? isn?t and can?t be unified when it contains Socialists, Communists, Left-libertatians, Anarchists, Social Democrats, among others. SR Ballard From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 03:06:24 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 22:06:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of cooking oil per year... SR Ballard > On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. > > So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to save money. > > Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep track of how long you've had it. > > I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. > > Bill W > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun May 10 03:33:59 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 23:33:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and that's just 2 people On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of > cooking oil per year... > > SR Ballard > > On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin > olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most > of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. > > So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to > save money. > > Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. > They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep > track of how long you've had it. > > I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. > > Bill W > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 11:23:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 07:23:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 7:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > T*o me, the runaway debt is the only thing that really matters.* I know and that's exactly the problem, you think the debt is the only thing that really matters. You ask why I keep updating the death numbers, well that's why, I don't think these people should be forgotten. And as of May 10 at 10:54 GMT 80,040 Americans have died of COVID-19 since March 1. Remember just a few days ago when the virus reached 58,209 dead Americans and beat the death toll from the Vietnam War? It seemed horrible at the time but compared to now it's like the good old days. But enough of such trivialities let's talk about something really important, the national debt. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 12:01:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 08:01:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 9:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If there's not much to choose between Trump and whoever, then I have to > go with whoever,just on the basis of personality: mean (in the sense of > small and petty as well as the usual meaning), narcissistic, power mad, > dismissive of science (or just about anything else), pussy grabber > (self-described), and a lot more, all bad or even worse. Not a person to > present to the world as our leader. An embarrassment to say the very > least. Just a disgusting human being. > I could not agree more. And I had thought it was just pure incompetence that caused the US to start widespread testing much later than every other advanced technological nation in the world and even later than many third world countries, but there may be more to it than just that. Yesterday Trump said: *"In a way by doing all this testing we make our country look bad. We're going to have more cases."* So if you don't know about a danger it can't hurt you. Talk about anti-science! The problem is you just can't hide from reality, eventually it will always find you and bite you in the ass. And you will never find a bigger ass than Donald Trump, but Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy gave me an idea for the perfect Christmas gift for the man: "*Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses have been specially designed to help people develop a relaxed attitude to danger. At the first hint of trouble, they turn totally black and thus prevent you from seeing anything that might alarm you.*? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 12:28:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 08:28:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget.* Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 12:46:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 05:46:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: > I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. >?Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow ? John K Clark OK, what if productivity unexpectedly drops for some reason? Does that mean we pay back by that percentage? How? And what if expenses simultaneously rise unexpectedly, do we pay for that by? how? A Ponzi scheme is a great investment until it suddenly isn?t anymore. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 13:06:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:06:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *OK, what if productivity unexpectedly drops for some reason? * Then that would be bad. No polacy can protect you from every possible bad thing, much less every hypothetical bad thing, all we can do is play the odds use our brains and do the best we can. > *A Ponzi scheme is a great investment until it suddenly isn?t anymore.* If you can find a Ponzi scheme that has made investors richer since 1835 then please let me know and I'll grab my checkbook! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 13:28:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 06:28:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d626ce$f4e62410$deb26c30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: OK, what if productivity unexpectedly drops for some reason? >?Then that would be bad? Future tense? Would be? We are living that unexpected drop right now. But no worries, we can blame the guy who cannot help us, and promote a different guy who cannot help us, ja? >?No polacy can protect you from every possible bad thing? True. Some ?polacies? can make us vulnerable to every bad thing. The policy of government gobbling up every loan every lender is willing to make is an example. >?much less every hypothetical bad thing? Ja, the hypothesis is playing out real time right now. >?all we can do is play the odds? OK we did that. Here we are. Too bad for us. >?use our brains and do the best we can? We are in a very uncomfortable situation, not just USA but everywhere: governments and citizens must make a decision to stay locked down to protect their people from disease or open their businesses to protect their people from massive simultaneous bankruptcy. I don?t know how it works outside of USA, but I suspect it is a universal rule: nations cannot shut down their economies very long. No nation can survive that. It doesn?t matter what form of government or what social safety nets they have, those aren?t designed to carry a high percentage of their population. They won?t hold. We don?t know what will happen if we re-open economies (this week) and there is an enormous surge in C-19 cases. But we do know that the government, state and local, are reaching the tail end of their ability to influence the citizens to stay on lockdown. I can imagine something similar in other countries everywhere. No nation can avoid chaos for long under these conditions. > A Ponzi scheme is a great investment until it suddenly isn?t anymore. >?If you can find a Ponzi scheme that has made investors richer since 1835 then please let me know and I'll grab my checkbook! John K Clark By all means, grab up all the US government bonds you can get your hands on. They are paying 2% and they are as secure as they were 6 months ago. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:04:24 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 10:04:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <003d01d626ce$f4e62410$deb26c30$@rainier66.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <002601d626c9$0472c240$0d5846c0$@rainier66.com> <003d01d626ce$f4e62410$deb26c30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:31 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I don?t know how it works outside of USA* Then I'll tell you. The South Korean economy shrank by 1.4% in the first quarter of this year. The US economy shrank by 4.8% in the first quarter of this year. Both South Korea and the US reported their first case of COVID-19 on January 20. Within 2 days South Korea had developed an excellent test for the virus and was using it extensively. The US has not done as well even after 3 months. As of today at 13:40 GMT South Korea has 10,874 people sick with the virus. The US has 1,348,315 sick with the virus. As of today at 13:40 GMT South Korea has 256 deaths from the virus. As of today at 13:40 GMT the US has 80,068 deaths from the virus. One country had a coherent coordinated plan to deal with this emergency and one country did not. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:08:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:08:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: The US ?Left? isn?t and can?t be unified when it contains Socialists, Communists, Left-libertatians, Anarchists, Social Democrats, among others. SR Ballard *Yes, and the same thing can be said of the right, which is why saying 'liberal' or 'conservative' doesn't mean just a whole lot. bill w* On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:07 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > US Debt > > I don?t know if I see US debt as my main concern, but it definitely is a > concern for me. I just can?t think of any solution that people can use > (that is politically viable), so I tend to ignore it. > > I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. > Or if we were at least making above-minimum payments. > > But taxes are notoriously unpopular. The only way to raise them, it seems, > is to bait and switch. > > > Mother Jones > > I wouldn?t characterize the Magazine as a rag, but it is a good indicator > of ?Left? thought in the US, which is composed of many different, competing > streams of thought. The US ?Left? isn?t and can?t be unified when it > contains Socialists, Communists, Left-libertatians, Anarchists, Social > Democrats, among others. > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:15:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:15:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] types of conservatives Message-ID: from Wikipedia - 1.1Liberal conservatism - 1.2Conservative liberalism - 1.3Libertarian conservatism - 1.4Fiscal conservatism - 1.5National and traditional conservatism - 1.6Cultural and social conservatism - 1.7Defending inequality - 1.8Religious conservatism - 1.9Paternalistic conservatism - 1.10Authoritarian conservatism bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:20:11 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:20:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D183798-BFA8-4E59-BD44-50A48E84539D@gmail.com> ?If? is why. SR Ballard > On May 10, 2020, at 7:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. > > Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! > > John K Clark >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:30:08 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 10:30:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:15 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > saying 'liberal' or 'conservative' doesn't mean just a whole lot. bill w > Yes, being conservative is supposed to mean you want to keep doing things the way we are doing it now, so why is wanting to make abortion illegal considered a conservative position? Abortion has been legal in every state in the country since 1973 and in some states longer than that. And what does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they both conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:32:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:32:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: <4D183798-BFA8-4E59-BD44-50A48E84539D@gmail.com> References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <4D183798-BFA8-4E59-BD44-50A48E84539D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:26 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ?If? is why. > > SR Ballard > Sorry - only had two cups of coffee so far. Brain fog. What do you mean by 'if'? bill w > > On May 10, 2020, at 7:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive >> budget.* > > > Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth > generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is > not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make > perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay > it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for > the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single > year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find > a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! > > John K Clark > >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:34:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:34:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: And what does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they both conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? John K Clark Of course you can, and that's why there are different categories. bill w On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:32 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:15 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > saying 'liberal' or 'conservative' doesn't mean just a whole lot. bill >> w >> > > Yes, being conservative is supposed to mean you want to keep doing things > the way we are doing it now, so why is wanting to make abortion illegal > considered a conservative position? Abortion has been legal in every state > in the country since 1973 and in some states longer than that. And what > does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they both > conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? > > John K Clark > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:39:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:39:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quotes of the day Message-ID: "The most important thing in a relationship between a man and a woman is that one of them is good at taking orders." That is basically what killed my third marriage. She could only give, not take, and I am antiauthoritarian. "The greatest love is a mother's, then a dog's, then a sweetheart's." Polish proverb bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 14:46:14 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 09:46:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> <4D183798-BFA8-4E59-BD44-50A48E84539D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone > On May 10, 2020, at 9:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:26 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> ?If? is why. >> >> SR Ballard > > Sorry - only had two cups of coffee so far. Brain fog. What do you mean by 'if'? > > bill w >> >Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! John K Clark >>> On May 10, 2020, at 7:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 11:08 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> > I could feel much more comfortable with a ?zero sum? or positive budget. >>> >>> Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! >>> >>> John K Clark >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 14:52:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 07:52:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a701d626da$a24d28a0$e6e779e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:15 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > saying 'liberal' or 'conservative' doesn't mean just a whole lot. bill w >?Yes, being conservative is supposed to mean you want to keep doing things the way we are doing it now? By that definition, I am anything but conservative. Our current course is catastrophic in my view. >?so why is wanting to make abortion illegal considered a conservative position? ? John K Clark I am section 1.4 on BillW?s list, fiscal conservative. People can have aaaaalll the abortions and aaaaallll the guns they want, every brand of abortion and every brand of guns, no bother from me. But we can?t keep borrowing against the future, because I lack full confidence in the future?s ability to carry that debt. If I were the banker, I would reject that loan application. The future might be suddenly upon with the virus: if it gets worse instead of better, and South Korea realizes it cannot keep doing what it is doing either, causing a huge outbreak there as well as everywhere else, the dilemma gets far worse than it is now. If we believe China?s numbers however, this will all go away soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 10 15:12:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 11:12:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:49 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>And what does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they >> both conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? >> John K Clark > > > *> Of course you can, and that's why there are different categories. bill > w* > If there are as many categories of "conservative" as you say and you need that many words to modify the adjective to give it meaning then the word has lost most of its usefulness; "I am conservative" contains very little information as Shannon defines "information" because you will have learned very little new about the person who spoke the words. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 16:22:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 11:22:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you would read that section of Wikipedia, you would find that in some places the meanings are reversed or different, or or or. It seems like political opinions come in so many categories that they rival the Baptists, who split off into a different church every other Sunday. Yeah, I think we can still use the terms. I have reminded the group several times that I am different from the crazies in Ivy League colleges who don't seem to understand the first amendment, or other parts of the Bill of Rights. I am a liberal libertarian but that still does not really explain all I believe in. And I am so ignorant of economics that I don't know where I stand there, except a totally free market lets too many companies make shoddy and dangerous goods. 'Regulation' is a good word to me, though it does seem that many agencies drown people in paperwork, which I wonder if anyone reads anyway. bill w On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:17 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:49 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >>And what does anti abortion and pro guns have in common, why are they >>> both conservative, couldn't you be for one and against the other ? >>> John K Clark >> >> >> *> Of course you can, and that's why there are different categories. >> bill w* >> > > If there are as many categories of "conservative" as you say and you need > that many words to modify the adjective to give it meaning then the word > has lost most of its usefulness; "I am conservative" contains very little > information as Shannon defines "information" because you will have learned > very little new about the person who spoke the words. > > John K Clark > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 10 16:31:42 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 11:31:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quotes of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65376657-2030-427B-BF83-64362032D235@gmail.com> Not to be mean, but how did y?all end up married with such an obvious mis-match? My mom?s first marriage and my aunt?s first four are exactly the same issue. SR Ballard > On May 10, 2020, at 9:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > "The most important thing in a relationship between a man and a woman is that one of them is good at taking orders." > > That is basically what killed my third marriage. She could only give, not take, and I am antiauthoritarian. > > "The greatest love is a mother's, then a dog's, then a sweetheart's." Polish proverb > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sun May 10 21:18:32 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 21:18:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 06:58:07 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? >The universe may have a preferred direction. A new study has found a spatial variation in the Fine Structure Constant (a pure number approximately equal to 1/137) with a 3.9 sigma level of confidence, that means there is a 0.8% chance it's just a statistical fluke. It's not good enough to claim a discovery, that requires 5 sigma or only 0.023% chance of it being bogus, but it's good enough to be interesting. The detected variation has a dipole structure, the laws of physics that govern electromagnetism seem to get stronger in one direction, and the further we look the stronger it gets, and it gets weaker when we look in the oposite direction, with no change in the perpendicular direction. In other words it has a dipole shape. >If this turns out to be true then Noether's theorem tells us that the Law Of conservation Of Angular Momentum is only approximately?true. Four direct measurements of the fine-structure constant 13 billion years ago This new optical work is consistent with a different study from a few weeks ago that used ?X rays instead of optical light, they also found a variation and along the same axis. Rethinking cosmology: Universe expansion may not be uniform ---------------------------------------- I seem to remember predicting that? our? universe was non-isotropic with my causal cell argument a couple of years ago. If our Hubble volume is inside a black or white hole, then it can be thought of as having particle-like properties such as mass, spin, and charge from the outside. If our Hubble volume had any angular momentum at all relative to other causal cells, then it could lead to discrepancies in Noether's theorem, since there would always be a net angular momentum left over that is never cancelled by symmetry: the spin of the universe along a spin axis as it were. This also supports my notion that vacuum energies are not a "cosmological constant" but a function of time. If the expansion rate of the universe is not uniform, that suggests the cosmological constant is not uniform. So I wonder if the spatial variation of the fine-structure number is large enough to influence the evolution of intelligent life? Might it serve to narrow the anthropic principle to a more localized space-time? If so, this spatial variation of the EM field could explain the Great Silence and give our universe a "Goldilocks zone". Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 21:35:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 14:35:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901d62712$f83c3c00$e8b4b400$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? ---------------------------------------- >...I seem to remember predicting that our universe was non-isotropic with my causal cell argument a couple of years ago... If it is non-isotropic, so many of our most basic assumptions are incorrect, or rather they are very close approximations. The ugliness in the equations is too revolting to consider. ... >...So I wonder if the spatial variation of the fine-structure number is large enough to influence the evolution of intelligent life? Might it serve to narrow the anthropic principle to a more localized space-time? If so, this spatial variation of the EM field could explain the Great Silence and give our universe a "Goldilocks zone". Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Ja it sure would. It could mean our Goldilocks zone is temporary, perhaps only a few tens of billions years. Do let us hope it is not true, but if it is true, let us hope it will not become generally known. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 22:46:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 17:46:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] block calls Message-ID: A cousin of mine lost her ability to drive and is now in a retirement home. Husband OK. But they took away her phone because she got calls from scammers and she just cannot process the idea that they are trying to rob her. She believes all of them. So - is there any way at all for her to have a phone app that blocks suspicious calls? Taking away a car is bad enough. All old people bemoan the loss of the ability to get around the world and do things for themselves. Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a possibility? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 22:56:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 15:56:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] block calls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> From: William Flynn Wallace Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 3:47 PM To: spike ; ExI chat list Subject: block calls >?A cousin of mine lost her ability to drive and is now in a retirement home. ? Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. >?I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a possibility? >?bill w Sure can BillW. A lotta times that?s the way to do phones for kids. They can call anyone they want, but only their friends and family can call them. We use that for my son. It isn?t tricky at all. I recommend you post forward to your cousin?s husband and suggest it forthwith. Have the guy at the shop set it up. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 10 23:02:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 16:02:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] block calls In-Reply-To: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> References: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004001d6271f$035b1aa0$0a114fe0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: block calls From: William Flynn Wallace > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 3:47 PM To: spike >; ExI chat list > Subject: block calls >?A cousin of mine lost her ability? Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. >?I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a possibility? >?bill w >?Sure can BillW. A lotta times that?s the way to do phones for kids. They can call anyone they want, but only their friends and family can call them. We use that for my son. >?It isn?t tricky at all. I recommend you post forward to your cousin?s husband and suggest it forthwith. Have the guy at the shop set it up. spike Cool BillW, you gave me an idea. We rig your cousin?s phone to block scammers, but to log their numbers. We get a sacrificial phone number that can only call out. Then we write software to use that number to randomly dial the scammers with scam calls at all hours. We have an actor who can voice-mimic a confused geezer, tell them you want to buy it (whatever it is they are selling) then give them a phony credit card number we can trace, then see who hits on it. BillW, you are a GENIUS me lad! Good thinking. We can have some fun here. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 10 23:07:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 18:07:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] block calls In-Reply-To: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> References: <002c01d6271e$382ca380$a885ea80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Have the guy at the shop set it up. spike thanks - I assume you mean like ATT if that's her phone - respond if no bill w On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Sunday, May 10, 2020 3:47 PM > *To:* spike ; ExI chat list < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > *Subject:* block calls > > > > >?A cousin of mine lost her ability to drive and is now in a retirement > home. ? Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. > > > > >?I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of > numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a > possibility? > > > > >?bill w > > > > > > Sure can BillW. A lotta times that?s the way to do phones for kids. They > can call anyone they want, but only their friends and family can call > them. We use that for my son. > > > > It isn?t tricky at all. I recommend you post forward to your cousin?s > husband and suggest it forthwith. Have the guy at the shop set it up. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 00:25:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 19:25:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and > that's just 2 people > > On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >> cooking oil per year... >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >> >> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >> save money. >> >> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >> track of how long you've had it. >> >> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >> >> Bill W >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 00:49:56 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:49:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't use 5 gal of olive oil but SR said just cooking oil--you use a shit ton of oil for shallow/deep frying. I fry a lot of shit so we have to get oil fairly often. I just went through about a gallon of peanut oil in 1-2 months (that's my go-to neutral frying oil.) On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >> that's just 2 people >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>> cooking oil per year... >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>> >>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >>> save money. >>> >>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>> track of how long you've had it. >>> >>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>> >>> Bill W >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 00:54:59 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:54:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: <002901d62712$f83c3c00$e8b4b400$@rainier66.com> References: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> <002901d62712$f83c3c00$e8b4b400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat > Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > >...I seem to remember predicting that our universe was non-isotropic > with my causal cell argument a couple of years ago... > > If it is non-isotropic, so many of our most basic assumptions are > incorrect, or rather they are very close approximations. The ugliness in > the equations is too revolting to consider. > > ... > > >...So I wonder if the spatial variation of the fine-structure number is > large enough to influence the evolution of intelligent life? Might it serve > to narrow the anthropic principle to a more localized space-time? If so, > this spatial variation of the EM field could explain the Great Silence and > give our universe a "Goldilocks zone". > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > > Ja it sure would. It could mean our Goldilocks zone is temporary, perhaps > only a few tens of billions years. Do let us hope it is not true, but if > it is true, let us hope it will not become generally known. > Maybe would mean we're in a goldilocks for our particular kind of intelligent life but that's not to say that other parts of the universe might be better suited to different forms of life. Another interesting question--are there parts of the universe that we would die if we went to because the laws are different? What does that even mean? What physical quantity is actually changing as you move from here to there? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 00:57:37 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:57:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? In-Reply-To: References: <1468873469.397314.1589144795783@mail.yahoo.com> <897305428.411065.1589145512335@mail.yahoo.com> <002901d62712$f83c3c00$e8b4b400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think one of the best ways to rationalize this, now that I think about it, is for particles to have their own rules about the universe, and not the universe having rules about particles. Or maybe not particles but some kind of weird dark matter cells that matter/energy accretes around. So we just happen to live in a part of the universe where all the matter and energy agrees that the fine structure constant is so-and-so. But over there, down the gradient, the stuff on that side of the universe doesn't think it's the same. Just trying to figure out where this information is stored. Makes more sense to me that it is stored locally instead of globally (especially since it appears to be able to vary.) On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:54 PM Will Steinberg wrote: > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> > On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat >> Subject: [ExI] Fw: A preferred direction to the universe? >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >...I seem to remember predicting that our universe was non-isotropic >> with my causal cell argument a couple of years ago... >> >> If it is non-isotropic, so many of our most basic assumptions are >> incorrect, or rather they are very close approximations. The ugliness in >> the equations is too revolting to consider. >> >> ... >> >> >...So I wonder if the spatial variation of the fine-structure number is >> large enough to influence the evolution of intelligent life? Might it serve >> to narrow the anthropic principle to a more localized space-time? If so, >> this spatial variation of the EM field could explain the Great Silence and >> give our universe a "Goldilocks zone". >> >> Stuart LaForge >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Ja it sure would. It could mean our Goldilocks zone is temporary, >> perhaps only a few tens of billions years. Do let us hope it is not true, >> but if it is true, let us hope it will not become generally known. >> > > Maybe would mean we're in a goldilocks for our particular kind of > intelligent life but that's not to say that other parts of the universe > might be better suited to different forms of life. > > Another interesting question--are there parts of the universe that we > would die if we went to because the laws are different? What does that > even mean? What physical quantity is actually changing as you move from > here to there? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 01:05:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 20:05:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I understand. I use olive, peanut and roasted hazelnut in various methods, the latter for sauteing fish. Of course the olive does double duty - salad and frying if I want that flavor. I have two kinds of coconut oil: one denatured (does not smell like anything), and plain, with the smell. The first one I use on my skin. Oh, and I occasionally use ghee. But mainly butter. More than anything else. (the cats I cook for - hello Spike! - don't like olive oil, so it's butter or peanut). If you like to cook you will really like the Nosrat book. Not for the recipes -for the reading - 28 pages on how to salt, what kind of salt (differences that will amaze you) and so on. bill w On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 7:52 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't use 5 gal of olive oil but SR said just cooking oil--you use a > shit ton of oil for shallow/deep frying. I fry a lot of shit so we have to > get oil fairly often. I just went through about a gallon of peanut oil in > 1-2 months (that's my go-to neutral frying oil.) > > On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >>> that's just 2 people >>> >>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>>> cooking oil per year... >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>> >>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >>>> save money. >>>> >>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>>> track of how long you've had it. >>>> >>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>> >>>> Bill W >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:00:01 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:00:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:21 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 16:47, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >>> ### Which cosmological models make Boltzmann brains more likely, and how? >> > > Here is a paper co-authored by several eminent cosmologists: > > ?The simplest interpretation of the observed accelerating expansion of the > universe is that it is driven by a constant vacuum energy density ??, which > is about three times greater than the present density of nonrelativistic > matter. While ordinary matter becomes more dilute as the universe expands, > the vacuum energy density remains the same, and in another ten billion > years or so the universe will be completely dominated by vacuum energy. The > subsequent evolution of the universe is accurately described as de Sitter > space. > It was shown by Gibbons and Hawking [1] that an observer in de Sitter > space would detect thermal radiation with a characteristic temperature TdS > = H?/2?, where > H? =??8?G?? (1) 3 > is the de Sitter Hubble expansion rate. For the observed value of ??, the > de Sitter temperature is extremely low, TdS = 2.3 ? 10?30 K. Nevertheless, > complex structures will occasionally emerge from the vacuum as quantum > fluctuations, at a small but nonzero rate per unit space-time volume. An > intelligent observer, like a human, could be one such structure. Or, short > of a complete observer, a disembodied brain may fluctuate into existence, > with a pattern of neuron firings creating a perception of be- ing on Earth > and, for example, observing the cosmic mi- crowave background radiation. > Such freak observers are collectively referred to as ?Boltzmann brains? [2, > 3]. Of course, the nucleation rate ?BB of Boltzmann brains is extremely > small, its magnitude depending on how one defines a Boltzmann brain. The > important point, however, is that ?BB is always nonzero. > De Sitter space is eternal to the future. Thus, if the accelerating > expansion of the universe is truly driven by the energy density of a stable > vacuum state, then Boltzmann brains will eventually outnumber normal > observers, no matter how small the value of ?BB [4, 7, 5, 8, 9] might be. > > https://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.3778.pdf > > There are other models, such as eternal inflation, where Boltzmann brains > may predominate. > > Most physicists see it as a problem with their theories, but on its own it > doesn?t seem to be enough to dismiss a theory, unlike, say, an astronomical > prediction that turns out to be wrong. > > > ### The theories assume that the quantum vacuum fluctuations sample the space of all possible arrangements of matter in an inverse-size dependent manner. All structures are created by fluctuations but the larger the structure the lower the density of such structures in the De Sitter space. Since De Sitter space is infinitely growing, Boltzmann brains at some point outnumber evolved brains, for some choices of measurement basis. I agree that this assumption is not enough to dismiss those theories. As I mentioned before, Wolfram's approach dispenses with randomness and imposes structure on vacuum, thus allowing (but not necessarily forcing) universes without Boltzmann brains. This is of course not a sufficient reason to choose his approach over conventional ones. However, if his research program generates theories that have an equal explanatory power to conventional theories, then the potential absence of Boltzmann brains might be a factor in his favor, for Occam's razor reasons. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:43:09 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:43:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 8:06 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I don't think this will solve the essential problem. I think any upload is > problematic. I believe there are two problems that will be really hard to > solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical environment of non-neural > information available in the body such as hormonal cycles or feedback from > non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from your gut) is difficult, with no > solution on the horizon. > ### There is no innate physical difference between brain neurotransmitters and rest of the body hormones as a class. In fact, many neurotransmitters have dual CNS and peripheral actions. Any technology that accurately models the chemistry of the brain will have no problem with modeling the chemistry of the body and will necessarily have to model its impacts on the brain. ------------------------- > Second, your cortex is specifically wired to accomodate your body, with > all its quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every > human body is different and each body's cortex learns the characteristics > of that body. While we know the cortex is nearly infinitely able to > accomodate and learn, learning an entirely new corporeal system may not > only overwhelm it, but the being that emerges after this process is highly > likely to not be "you". > ### This would not be a problem for an upload. For those who wish it, an emulation of the body should be possible, if ruinously expensive, including an exact copy taken from scanned individual body information. ------------------------ > > I'm a participant in cryonics research because I want to be reanimated as > myself. I'm not so interested in contributing a brain pattern that took me > my whole life to create (and that I like very much!!) so be uploaded to > some other agent who can use it to wire-up a version based on me that is so > foreign that I'm not really there. > ### I am signed up for neuropreservation. My attitude towards my own life (and in no way is this personal and idiosyncratic attitude to be taken as an opinion about how other people should approach their own lives), is that any physical structure that processes information in a manner sufficiently similar to me is actually me, and not some other agent. This means that there could be millions of me's and each and every one of me would see all of them as himself, just in other locations. I am willing to be quite liberal about the details of how this me-pattern is implemented, whether in biological brains, in dedicated hardware or even cobbled together from off-the-shelf software-simulated neural components (e.g. whole visual system, or a limbic system emulation), as long as enough indexical information is there to differentiate me from others. > > IMHO, YMMV ~! > ### Indeed, I strongly agree on the IMHO and YMMV here :) Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:48:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:48:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 9:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but the > ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is still haunting > the 21th century and many still think that despite all the scientific > evidence to the contrary the atoms in our bodies must somehow have our name > scratched on them. I suspect Alcor is reluctant to change because they > believe ASC would be bad public relations. But I think reality is more > important than PR and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > ### Yes, I wish Alcor would offer ASC an an option, no matter what additional cost I would take it. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:51:15 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:51:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:57 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Which copy wins the philosophical claim of "being" "me" doesn't worry me. > > Which one wins the legal claims of "gets to lock the other copies of me > out of the house I'm living in now", "gets to continue the relationship I > have with my employer right now", and most importantly, the social claim of > "gets to hang out with my unduplicated wife and kids"... > > These worry me a great deal. Enough that I think I'd like to have a good > plan in place to resolve those claims before a hundred (or a million!) of > me wake up one fine morning each having a 99 (or 99.9999!) percent chance > of being disposessed of unduplicatable real property and relationships and > we have to start playing Highlander ("There can be only one!"). > ### Yes, it's very important to take care of the legal niceties first, before sticking your head inside the laser brain-milling nano-scanner machine! A simple will might perhaps suffice. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 05:55:54 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 01:55:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 3:23 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: The point of cryopreservation is that we can't upload brains yet, so > it's a way of preserving the information until we can. Once we can > upload wet brains, no-one would bother with cryopreservation (assuming > the upload process wouldn't destroy the brain, which it probably would). > > ### Elon Musk tweeted recently about Neuralink progress. Maybe cryonics will end up being a Plan B, and even us relatively old folks will be still able to squeeze ourselves up into the internets through his nanowire implants. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 06:01:40 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 02:01:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:22 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > But worse - ASC is complete brain destruction, leaving you reliant on a > clean reading of the data within that brain. And while we can map the > geography of the connectome clearly from an ASC preserved brain (if we can > Eye-Wire all the neurons! And glia....) we can't read the chemical states, > plus we lose all the dynamics of the smaller dendritic spines. The chemical > states include both the ionic state of each neuron, plus the pattern of > neurotransmitter concentrations. That information is all lost. Forever. > ### That information is lost within 20 minutes of dying, no matter what approach you take to preservation. > > So, I say a huge *ACK!* to aldehyde stabilized cryopreservation, beautiful > as it is. It's a great tool to stabilize the tissue and to study the > connectome, no question. Brilliant. But if you ever want to be "you" again > - keep your brain intact !!! > ### As I mentioned, who is me is a matter of personal opinion. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 06:21:37 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 02:21:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Takers and Makers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 3:01 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The Right tends to worship hierarchy, tradition, and obedience. > ### This is no longer true. It is the left that worships dominance, rigid bureaucratic rules and demands obedience, ever since the Left wrested power from the Right (about 100 years in the US by now). What the Left worshipped before glomming on to power is a history long gone. Actually, I don't really care about Left-Right politicking and pigeonholing. I prefer to divide people among two general classes: Those who ask "Who? Whom?" and those who ask "What? How? Why?" Another division that I like, often coinciding with the above dichotomy, is Takers and Makers. And then there are those who say "My way or no way" and there are those who say "Live and let live". These divisions reflect important cognitive and emotional differences among people which shape their interests (Who vs. What), which leads them to take on different social roles (Takers vs. Makers) and embody different recipes for life (My way vs. Let live). Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 06:35:02 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 02:35:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> References: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com> <51BE2881-783D-4059-B70C-1477866FCB00@gmail.com> <00c601d622da$8375aaf0$8a6100d0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d622eb$9ca00500$d5e00f00$@rainier66.com> <015301d622fe$1c672e50$55358af0$@rainier66.com> <017f01d6230b$c5b404d0$511c0e70$@rainier66.com> <833B70EB-771C-4B71-AC1E-62B5D57E0026@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:13 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Technically, no one ever has to hold the bag because you can: > > (1) Default > (2) New country/government > (3) Inflation (?Money printer goes brrrrr?) > ### Garrett Jones in "10% Less Democracy" takes apart this reasoning. Worth reading. Basically, governments are in a long-term game. There is always the next fiscal year coming, and most governments are pretty sure they will need to borrow in that year too. If they default on debts to independent external creditors, they won't be able to find lenders next year, so they grumble and moan but keep paying interest and tighten their citizens' collective belt to keep the money flowing. In this way external creditors act as a disciplining factor to governments and reduce democracy (which is a good thing!). Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 06:51:04 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 02:51:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides In-Reply-To: <6A772EA4-0344-476E-A4CA-A5654812DB7F@gmail.com> References: <6A772EA4-0344-476E-A4CA-A5654812DB7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That you fail to assimilate the actual findings of gender/sex science > seems to show are casting out science... > ### No, actually I am quite well-versed in the science of gender, and psychometry, and psychiatry, and that's precisely the reason why I call BS on leftoids peddling their inane ideas. -------------------------------- > > Being gay or trans significantly interferes with one's ability to create > and maintain stable, child- > > rearing families. This is a simple biological and statistical fact. > Dismissing this fact as "religious > > morality with pseudo-biological rationale" doesn't make it go away. > > > It's not established in that way at all. For a long time and even now, > institutional regimes -- in other words, laws and norms inside institutions > -- do their best to promote cis only families. For instance, non-hetero > parents are prevented from adopting or keeping children (and thus forming > families with children). This is legal disruption of family formation and > stability. (It also doesn't help when, for instance, parents ostracize a > child who identifies as non-binary or non-hetero. Do you doubt this > happens? Do you doubt it can disruptive to not only the family of origin > but can disrupt the child's ability to bond with others?) > ### This is BS. -------------------------- > > > This is similar to how many so called learned men said women should go to > college and pursue degrees, especially not in STEM fields, because of their > biology: that their biology means they're less able to do the work, > concentrate, be rational, etc. When, in fact, there's no biological basis > for these claims and the empirical fact that less women were in these > fields at the time had to do with institutional obstacles and cultural > norms. > ### Absolutely to the contrary, there is a very strong biological basis to the differences between men and women in STEM fields. --------------------------- > That's the thing with facts, they don't go away even if you call them bad > names. > > > Apparently calling trans people malingers or disturbed is okay though. Or > do you have a factual basis that trans people are more likely to be > malingerers or disturbed than cis people? (And I mean beyond social and > legal stigmas that tend to make it harder for anyone not fitting social > gender normals to get jobs and lead otherwise normal lives.) > ### Look up the statistics on the prevalence of psychiatric comorbidity among trannnies. And don't tell me their sky-high rates of psychological disturbance are due to us normal folks oppressing them, or something like that. Yes, there are now malingerers pretending to be trannies in order to run roughshod over women's sports or to get social kudos for being more intersectional than the other, vanilla leftoids. Let me be clear - It is not morally wrong to be a tranny. However, it does suck, statistically speaking, to be a tranny. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:10:29 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:10:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <001401d62478$f2b5bb40$d82131c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d62478$f2b5bb40$d82131c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:33 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > > > *> **This type of post from you tells me you clearly only use the > scientific method when it suits your TDS.* > > > > >?It's amazing how extensively the Trump Cult has spread? John K Clark > > > > > > John you still haven?t figured out you are one of those helping spread > that. But we have. > > > ### Indeed. When I first heard about Trump running for prez, I snickered. Even later on I was rather "Meh" about him. But as time went by and all the John Clarks of the world saturated the interwebs with TDS hysteria, I started turning into a Trump supporter, first slowly, then a lot quicker. Now even if Trump was shown on credible footage eating adorable dachshund puppies alive, I would just say "Whatever suits your palate, Master". Thank you John for turning me to the Trump side. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:17:29 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:17:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 2:39 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 7, 2020, 12:48 John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >>> *> OK John, we will come clean. You caught us. Everyone on this list >>> is in the Trump cult, except you. * >>> >> >> OK Spike, I will come clean. You caught me. Nobody on this list has Trump >> Derangement Syndrome except for me. And I'm a Troll too and operate a >> covert false flag operation because nobody could sincerely believe Trump >> was as dumb as dogshit when it's so obvious he's very sharp. As sharp as >> a beach ball. >> > > I have never seen anyone on this list say that Trump is smart. Even > Rafal, who is comically right wing > ### Man, you don't know the least of it! I am so far to the right I circle around to the left of most leftists. ---------------------- > I have never seen call Trump smart. > ### Trump is smart. There, I said it. Rafal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:21:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:21:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:14 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The funny thing is that, like Bush II before him, Trump had a long career > in the public eye long before he became President. And during those > careers, prior to them entering the White House, not one of their enemies > (and both of them had many) ever credibly called them stupid. > > "Corrupt", yes. "Venal", yes. Even "rude" and "uncouth". But never > "stupid". > > It seems Republican presidents only ever become stupid once they're > elected President. > > ### And their estimated intelligence goes back to normal once the new Republican president needs to be put down as being inferior to his predecessors, isn't that interesting? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:30:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:30:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:11 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: For Rafal, I understand, because Rafal probably has a homemade fasces > sitting over his mantel. ;) > ### I do have an SPQR badge from my time in the Legion but no fasces, never got the promotion. And like listening to the Arditi. I worship the AR-15 in my Lararium. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:41:41 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 03:41:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] brittle systems In-Reply-To: <112C0546-4480-49FC-8FDF-58F2C2C1B695@gmail.com> References: <013701d625b5$873da240$95b8e6c0$@rainier66.com> <112C0546-4480-49FC-8FDF-58F2C2C1B695@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Redlining is an example. > ### It's an example of what happens when a leftist, activist and racist government starts regulating banking. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon May 11 07:45:08 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:45:08 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 May 2020 at 15:02, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 4:21 AM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 16:47, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>>> ### Which cosmological models make Boltzmann brains more likely, and >>> how? >>> >> >> Here is a paper co-authored by several eminent cosmologists: >> >> ?The simplest interpretation of the observed accelerating expansion of >> the universe is that it is driven by a constant vacuum energy density ??, >> which is about three times greater than the present density of >> nonrelativistic matter. While ordinary matter becomes more dilute as the >> universe expands, the vacuum energy density remains the same, and in >> another ten billion years or so the universe will be completely dominated >> by vacuum energy. The subsequent evolution of the universe is accurately >> described as de Sitter space. >> It was shown by Gibbons and Hawking [1] that an observer in de Sitter >> space would detect thermal radiation with a characteristic temperature TdS >> = H?/2?, where >> H? =??8?G?? (1) 3 >> is the de Sitter Hubble expansion rate. For the observed value of ??, the >> de Sitter temperature is extremely low, TdS = 2.3 ? 10?30 K. Nevertheless, >> complex structures will occasionally emerge from the vacuum as quantum >> fluctuations, at a small but nonzero rate per unit space-time volume. An >> intelligent observer, like a human, could be one such structure. Or, short >> of a complete observer, a disembodied brain may fluctuate into existence, >> with a pattern of neuron firings creating a perception of be- ing on Earth >> and, for example, observing the cosmic mi- crowave background radiation. >> Such freak observers are collectively referred to as ?Boltzmann brains? [2, >> 3]. Of course, the nucleation rate ?BB of Boltzmann brains is extremely >> small, its magnitude depending on how one defines a Boltzmann brain. The >> important point, however, is that ?BB is always nonzero. >> De Sitter space is eternal to the future. Thus, if the accelerating >> expansion of the universe is truly driven by the energy density of a stable >> vacuum state, then Boltzmann brains will eventually outnumber normal >> observers, no matter how small the value of ?BB [4, 7, 5, 8, 9] might be. >> >> https://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.3778.pdf >> >> There are other models, such as eternal inflation, where Boltzmann brains >> may predominate. >> >> Most physicists see it as a problem with their theories, but on its own >> it doesn?t seem to be enough to dismiss a theory, unlike, say, an >> astronomical prediction that turns out to be wrong. >> >> >> > ### The theories assume that the quantum vacuum fluctuations sample the > space of all possible arrangements of matter in an inverse-size dependent > manner. All structures are created by fluctuations but the larger the > structure the lower the density of such structures in the De Sitter space. > Since De Sitter space is infinitely growing, Boltzmann brains at some point > outnumber evolved brains, for some choices of measurement basis. I agree > that this assumption is not enough to dismiss those theories. > > As I mentioned before, Wolfram's approach dispenses with randomness and > imposes structure on vacuum, thus allowing (but not necessarily forcing) > universes without Boltzmann brains. This is of course not a sufficient > reason to choose his approach over conventional ones. However, if his > research program generates theories that have an equal explanatory power to > conventional theories, then the potential absence of Boltzmann brains might > be a factor in his favor, for Occam's razor reasons. > Randomness is not required, in general, to explore the possibility space. We see this with deterministic Many Worlds compared with probabilistic Copenhagen Interpretation. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon May 11 07:59:44 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 08:59:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/05/2020 06:49, Rafal wrote: > On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 9:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > I happen to think that's exactly what Alcor should be saying, but > the ghost of the discredited 19th century theory of Vitalism is > still haunting the 21th century and many still think that despite > all the scientific evidence to the contrary the atoms in our > bodies must somehow have our name scratched on them. I suspect > Alcor is reluctant to change because they believe ASC would be bad > public relations. But I think reality is more important than PR > and the Vitalism superstition could get people killed. > > > ### Yes, I wish Alcor would offer ASC an an option, no matter what > additional cost I would take it. > > Rafal > I have a question: If aldehyde stabilisation cross-links proteins, why is cryopreservation required? Wouldn't aldehyde stabilisation followed by inflitration with a resin (like with electron microscope samples) work for preserving a brain with no need for cryopreservation? This seems the ideal solution to me, if it would work. Your brain could then sit on a mantelpiece (or in a bank vault) until it can be uploaded, and you wouldn't need to rely on an expensive and vulnerable (not to mention rare) cyronics facility. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:04:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:04:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> References: <017401d6255c$ba509330$2ef1b990$@rainier66.com> <005401d62573$d55b5e50$80121af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > Dylan this whole thing was a most interesting public lesson in civics. > POTUS issued these lockdown orders. Immediately Californians began to ask > by what authority can POTUS give us orders? Answer: none. So nothing much > happened then, which is why the local representative was seen in Chinatown, > clearly violating that order. > > > > Then states got into the act: our governor issued pretty similar orders, > and again we wanted to know how the governor has the authority to make such > demands. > ### Actually, this was a piece a five-dimensional political ju-jitsu by Trump: First he made some mouth noises about ordering state governors to do his bidding. The governors demurred. Trump slumped, beaten, was all hands off. All governors, donkey and elephant, after re-affirming their prerogatives, felt invigorated and got to work to make themselves look very busy, powerful and important. Predictably, they screwed up monumentally, in part because it was too late for lockdowns to work. Now the donkey governors had to show how anti-Trump they are, so they had to double down on lockdown, earning prole enmity. Elephants don't have that problem, so they started easing off or even avoided locking people down in the first place. Now Trump avoids the blame for the lockdowns but gets the credit for lifting them. Basically, Trump destroyed the presidential chances of a lot of up-and-coming Democratic politicians by prodding them to rule according to their authoritarian inclinations. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:12:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:12:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 2:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > If we could be absolutely sure you don?t have actual Chinese paymasters, > we would take that as satire. China did this to us, specifically President > Xi, and John you posted comments defending Xi as late as March 17. > ### And he posted links to and praised a Chicom propaganda video! WTF?? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:24:27 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:24:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump's Coronavirus Response In-Reply-To: References: <00c901d62653$7e931dc0$7bb95940$@rainier66.com> <013a01d6265b$6cd44b60$467ce220$@rainier66.com> <73820E71-BC20-43EA-AB7E-AA92C891B9D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:31 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Why? In the last 2 centuries we have dramatically improved our wealth > generating machinery, aka our productivity, so as long as the borrowing is > not larger than the rate of wealth generation improvement it would make > perfect economic sense to borrow a hard to make dollar today if I can pay > it back with a easy to make dollar tomorrow. And that's why, except for > the Clinton years, the USA has been running a budget deficit every single > year since 1835. And in the entire history of the nation you will not find > a time less appropriate to worry about the budget deficit than right now! > ### As much as it surprises me to agree with John on a non-STEM matter, deficit spending does have some good justifications in terms of its impact on the quality of governance. Once again let me plug for Garrett Jones' "10% Less democracy". The measly four hundred billion dollars paid to bond-holders every year is a cheap price for keeping politicians from being even worse than they are. Aficionados of GoT may seek parallels to the impact of the Iron Bank on Westerosi politics. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:48:11 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:48:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Boltzmann brains In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:45 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Mon, 11 May 2020 at 15:02, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> ### The theories assume that the quantum vacuum fluctuations sample the >> space of all possible arrangements of matter in an inverse-size dependent >> manner. All structures are created by fluctuations but the larger the >> structure the lower the density of such structures in the De Sitter space. >> Since De Sitter space is infinitely growing, Boltzmann brains at some point >> outnumber evolved brains, for some choices of measurement basis. I agree >> that this assumption is not enough to dismiss those theories. >> >> As I mentioned before, Wolfram's approach dispenses with randomness and >> imposes structure on vacuum, thus allowing (but not necessarily forcing) >> universes without Boltzmann brains. This is of course not a sufficient >> reason to choose his approach over conventional ones. However, if his >> research program generates theories that have an equal explanatory power to >> conventional theories, then the potential absence of Boltzmann brains might >> be a factor in his favor, for Occam's razor reasons. >> > > Randomness is not required, in general, to explore the possibility space. > We see this with deterministic Many Worlds compared with probabilistic > Copenhagen Interpretation. > >> > ### Indeed, randomness vs. determinism is not the whole story. It's the structure that Wolfram imposes on vacuum that matters as well - each of his hypergraph/rule combinations generates only patterns specific to that combination, rather than all imaginable patterns. Many Worlds on the other hand generates all possible outcomes according to the Born rule. The hypergraph that describes our universe and subsumes QM, GR and string theory might (but maybe does not have to) restrict quantum fluctuations to generate only a subset of physical structures. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 11 08:54:27 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 04:54:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:07 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > If aldehyde stabilisation cross-links proteins, why is cryopreservation > required? Wouldn't aldehyde stabilisation followed by inflitration with a > resin (like with electron microscope samples) work for preserving a brain > with no need for cryopreservation? This seems the ideal solution to me, if > it would work. Your brain could then sit on a mantelpiece (or in a bank > vault) until it can be uploaded, and you wouldn't need to rely on an > expensive and vulnerable (not to mention rare) cyronics facility. > ### There are some limitations to resin infiltration for large pieces of tissue, so you might have to slice the brain finely after ACS but this should not be a problem if your blade is sharp enough. I would consider being resin-preserved for the reasons you mention. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 12:04:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 08:04:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:46 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *### There is no innate physical difference between brain > neurotransmitters and rest of the body hormones as a class. In fact, many > neurotransmitters have dual CNS and peripheral actions.* > Exactly. And when you get down to it hormones are just a way to transmit information, a very slow low bandwidth way. > *### This would not be a problem for an upload. For those who wish it, an > emulation of the body should be possible, if ruinously expensive,* > I have to disagree here. I don't think anybody is going to be revived until the age of Nanotechnology has arrived, and when you have self reproducing nanomachines almost everything we can think of today could be put into 2 categories, physically impossible and very cheap. If we really are cryopreserved shortly after our deaths and if our brains really are maintained at liquid nitrogen temperatures until the age of Nanotechnology then I think we have a moderately good chance of not ending up in the "physically impossible" category, so then the only remaining question would be if Mr. Jupiter Brain thinks we're worth the effort. The fact that it would be very cheap is encouraging, maybe we'd have some small nostalgic value to the gentleman, or maybe he's just a nice guy. Or maybe not, I just don't know, but I think it's worth a try. > *### I am signed up for neuropreservation.* > Me too. > *My attitude towards my own life (and in no way is this personal and > idiosyncratic attitude to be taken as an opinion about how other people > should approach their own lives), is that any physical structure that > processes information in a manner sufficiently similar to me is actually > me, and not some other agent.* > I have the same attitude but I think it's more than a idiosyncratic whim, it's clearly in the direction that science shows. The only way we could be wrong would be if it turned out the Bible Thumpers were right after all, but I think that possibility is much too small to worry about. > > *This means that there could be millions of me's and each and every one > of me would see all of them as himself, just in other locations. I am > willing to be quite liberal about the details of how this me-pattern is > implemented,* > Yes, they'd all have the same past that you have right now with exactly the same memories, but they would have different futures because they would be put into different situations. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 12:24:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 08:24:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> **### Yes, I wish Alcor would offer ASC an an option, no matter what > additional cost I would take it.* Rafal, you really should go to Alcor's General Forum and let your wishes be known, I've been pushing for ASC for years but have met with a lot of resistance there. The ghost of the vitalism superstition is strong, even at Alcor. Alcor General Forum John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 13:09:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 09:09:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <003001d62600$22fd00f0$68f702d0$@rainier66.com> <008a01d62610$389c7c00$a9d57400$@rainier66.com> <004201d62632$7f66c470$7e344d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:26 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> ### And he posted links to and praised a Chicom propaganda video!* > > *WTF??* > And I clearly labeled it as Chinese propaganda, it was even the subject title of the thread, and I said it should have included the shameful Chinese cover up during the first 3 weeks of the outbreak in December; but if it had included that then it wouldn't have been propaganda, it would have just been a video accurately showing the facts. Just because something comes from the propaganda agency of a totalitarian country doesn't necessarily mean it's all lies. If the facts are on your side then even Big Brother doesn't have to lie, and by pure random chance sometimes they are. A Chinese animated propaganda video John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 14:17:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 10:17:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:08 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If aldehyde stabilisation cross-links proteins, why is cryopreservation > required?* If you're only interested in very short term storage freezing wouldn't be required, but even though the microscopic parts of the brain have been physically locked in place, at room temperatures chemical reactions can still occur. To a rough approximation the speed of a chemical reaction doubles with every 10 degree Centigrade increase in temperature. Even dry ice at -78 C would only be good for storage of a few months, but with liquid nitrogen at -196C you'd be OK for many centuries. Even -135C would be cold enough and some prefer that temperature because it avoids cracking, but that's a minor problem that I don't think is worth the greater expense, and the added complexity dramatically decreases my confidence low temperatures can reliably be maintained for a very long time. Complex things need more maintenance than simple things and I can't predict what the quality or quantity of Alcor's future maintenance abilities will be. The advantage of ASC is that as the brain freezes the microscopic parts of the brain are not pushed out of place, that's why I think it would be better than the vitrification process that Alcor currently uses. And if it turns out that push is chaotic then ASC is not only better it's the only method that has a chance of working. Actually I don't think it's chaotic, I think the flow is probably Laminar, but why take the chance, and why make things for the people (or whatever) that want to revive us more difficult than they need to be. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 16:26:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 11:26:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again Message-ID: Once again I am very wrong about people. Maybe I should have stuck with using my music degree. Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but is being withheld. Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay. I could not find estimates of what percentage of the people are often affected by Kruger-Dunning, but more and more I think it's alarmingly high - 30% above may be an underestimate. It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a prerequisite of voting. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 16:40:23 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:40:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately, along with our rugged individualism, the US also has a very long history of apocalypse religions, conspiracy theorists, and other cults. It appears to be in our cultural DNA. It is disheartening to read this kind of statistic (along with the ones on how many Americans consider the theory of evolution to be valid). I don't know if there are any flaws in the survey methodology, but I would expect not. I'm also all for people making their own choices on navigating the current CV-19 situation and going out, but I am disappointed to see all of the anti-mask rhetoric as some kind of revolt against the lockdowns. The masks for me are a no brainer, although I am against mandates requiring them. I just don't see any downside to mask wearing in this situation, especially when it seems to be a common behavior in places that have done a better job of slowing the spread. Unfortunately both the corrupt WHO and our own government have given earlier conflicting information on them which has created further mistrust. OTOH, I am completely against this contact tracing nonsense that is being tied to reopenings, and adding more government workers to suck at the taxpayer teat as part of it. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:28 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Once again I am very wrong about people. Maybe I should have stuck with > using my music degree. Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe > that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the > virus exists but is being withheld. > > Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay. > > I could not find estimates of what percentage of the people are often > affected by Kruger-Dunning, but more and more I think it's alarmingly high > - 30% above may be an underestimate. > > It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a > prerequisite of voting. > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 16:54:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 09:54:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but is being withheld? Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling to zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one accepts their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which are very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any other countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind of genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. Reasoning: even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured cases, or if a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists, but we don?t have it here. >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they kept the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a prerequisite of voting. bill w Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret C-19 cure exists. If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My property taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:36:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:36:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:22 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ### Trump is smart. There, I said it. Would it also be smart for a person to inject himself with Clorox or isopropyl alcohol and shove a UV flashlight up his ass? And Rafal, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you said you were a libertarian, how do you square that with Trump being a fierce opponent of Free Trade, Euthanasia, Abortion, Marijuana, and Bitcoin, and being strongly in favor of Strong Encryption only for government use so they can keep secrets from us but we can't keep secrets from them, and Trump wanting to "*open up our libel laws*" so that whenever anybody says something about the President he doesn't like he can personally "*sue them and win lots of money*". These things and being a libertarian just don't seem compatible to me. Show me why I'm wrong. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:51:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:51:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I already have property on the Moon. Having some in WV would really round off my possessions. Biggest assortment of rednecks outside of Hamilton Ohio (my ex said that her hometown was full of them - surprising). Owning property doesn?t make one smart. spike Wanna bet? I'll eat your lunch,supper, and breakfast the next day. Sure, some of them are as dumb as lint, but to own and keep owning it shows signs of intelligence - not a lot, I"ll admit. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] kruger dunning again > > > > >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists > but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but is being > withheld? > > > > Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling to > zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one accepts > their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which are > very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any other > countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind of > genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists > (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they > must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. > > > > Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. Reasoning: > even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured cases, or if > a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. > > > > Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine > exists, but we don?t have it here. > > > > >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? > > > > Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they kept > the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? > > > > >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a > prerequisite of voting. > > > > bill w > > > > Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask > respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret > C-19 cure exists. > > > > If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that > would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. > > > > I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My property > taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no > restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the > definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece > of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 17:54:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 10:54:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?strongly in favor of Strong Encryption only for government use so they can keep secrets from us but we can't keep secrets from them?John K Clark Presidents don?t make laws. Congress does. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? Me too. I have figured out a way to do cryto-cryptography: we can send messages completely securely in such a way that it couldn?t be proven that it contained a secret message. I do not claim to be the first person to discover this; the notion might be over a century old. My spin on it is this: We send the recipient a few thousand digital images on a flash drive thru the post office, each with a different date stamp and time stamp. Then we have on our computer the same set of images. We post the message to the recipient with some reference to the date and time stamp of the decoder image. The secret message is encoded in the least significant bit of the images: you get it from subtracting one image from the other. The sent message looks like a perfectly normal photo, for the least-significant bits already look like random noise. The resulting message is still a haystack of random of bits, which are then decrypted with a one-time pad. Not only is it completely secure, there is no way to prove there is any message there at all. Wouldn?t that be cool? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:55:39 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:55:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists > but it is being withheld, > That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-19 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:56:16 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 11:56:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for profit and perverted fun. Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all discontent. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] kruger dunning again > > > > >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists > but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but is being > withheld? > > > > Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling to > zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one accepts > their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which are > very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any other > countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind of > genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists > (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they > must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. > > > > Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. Reasoning: > even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured cases, or if > a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. > > > > Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine > exists, but we don?t have it here. > > > > >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? > > > > Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they kept > the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? > > > > >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a > prerequisite of voting. > > > > bill w > > > > Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask > respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret > C-19 cure exists. > > > > If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that > would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. > > > > I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My property > taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no > restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the > definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece > of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 18:10:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 11:10:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d501d627bf$745829a0$5d087ce0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>?Owning property doesn?t make one smart. spike >? Sure, some of them are as dumb as lint, but to own and keep owning it shows signs of intelligence - not a lot, I"ll admit bill w My WV property has no limit on the number of co-owners. The state doesn?t care, so long as it gets its property tax. We (the owners (all cousins at this point)) specifically asked if it was OK to bring on more co-owners: that was the answer. Pay the taxes and you can have as many co-owners as you want. They won?t send them all tax bills but they can still be listed as co-owners, so long as the WV government ends up with the tax money. WV is happy to collect tax revenue on property that is completely useless because it has no road to it. If anyone ever does build a road, then WV is free to assess the value of that property at whatever they want (in which case we stop paying the taxes (and the state owns it (they realize no one will do that (the land is too rugged back there (but if someone did build a road the property does become valuable (and the state would want it.))))) The family wants that property too. My great great grandfather had a homestead back there, my great grandfather and my grandmother were born there. We want to keep that. We could create co-owners in arbitrary numbers (for a profit) giving the new co-owners the right to vote and a credential on their intelligence at the same time. But keep in mind: if owning property makes one smart, then owning more property makes one more smart. Are you ready to go there? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:17:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:17:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it true that everything that comes out of his mouth is not true, even if he did not intend to lie? Maybe not, but I would take the bet. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:14 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists >> but it is being withheld, >> > > That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to > astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-1 > 9 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to > take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not > the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. > > John K Clark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:20:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:20:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: followup -- do we think that he knows he is lying? Two possibilities here: one is that he knows. Fine, he is a jerk but not insane. Two - he doesn't know he is lying. Not fine. He needs to leave his brain to science. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:17 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Is it true that everything that comes out of his mouth is not true, even > if he did not intend to lie? > Maybe not, but I would take the bet. > > bill w > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:14 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists >>> but it is being withheld, >>> >> >> That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to >> astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-1 >> 9 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse >> to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's >> not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. >> >> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 18:22:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 11:22:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ed01d627c1$20308370$60918a50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, >?That's nothing>?I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. John K Clark Dr. Carol Baker of Baylor College of Medicine suggests a solution Germany tried in the 1940s, mass murder: https://twitter.com/WeAreTRR/status/1255247846934224896 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:24:05 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:24:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I wonder how the French felt about 1800, when they had trashed mansions. beheaded the aristocracy and so on. Were they happy then? I suspect not. There were by a large margin not enough gilt mirrors to go around to the poor. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:20 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously > more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income > Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, > collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands > of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. > > This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated > Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, > or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the > overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. > > If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of > mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human > skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for > profit and perverted fun. > > Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all discontent. > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* [ExI] kruger dunning again >> >> >> >> >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine >> exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but >> is being withheld? >> >> >> >> Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling to >> zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one accepts >> their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which are >> very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any other >> countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind of >> genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists >> (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they >> must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. >> >> >> >> Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. Reasoning: >> even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured cases, or if >> a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. >> >> >> >> Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine >> exists, but we don?t have it here. >> >> >> >> >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? >> >> >> >> Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they kept >> the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? >> >> >> >> >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a >> prerequisite of voting. >> >> >> >> bill w >> >> >> >> Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask >> respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret >> C-19 cure exists. >> >> >> >> If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that >> would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. >> >> >> >> I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My >> property taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no >> restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the >> definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece >> of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:43:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:43:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <00d501d627bf$745829a0$5d087ce0$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00d501d627bf$745829a0$5d087ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: if owning property makes one smart, then owning more property makes one more smart. Are you ready to go there? *spike Sure I'll go there. It isn't all IQ, as we both know. But amassing millions, or tens of millions. or billions of dollars in property, stocks, etc. takes some smarts. Positive correlation. Holding on to it if you inherited it ditto. Now if you believe that if you buy more property it will make you smarter, then I have some land very near the coast in Florida you might like.bill w* On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > >>?Owning property doesn?t make one smart. spike > > > > >? Sure, some of them are as dumb as lint, but to own and keep owning it > shows signs of intelligence - not a lot, I"ll admit > > bill w > > > > My WV property has no limit on the number of co-owners. The state doesn?t > care, so long as it gets its property tax. We (the owners (all cousins at > this point)) specifically asked if it was OK to bring on more co-owners: > that was the answer. Pay the taxes and you can have as many co-owners as > you want. They won?t send them all tax bills but they can still be listed > as co-owners, so long as the WV government ends up with the tax money. > > WV is happy to collect tax revenue on property that is completely useless > because it has no road to it. If anyone ever does build a road, then WV is > free to assess the value of that property at whatever they want (in which > case we stop paying the taxes (and the state owns it (they realize no one > will do that (the land is too rugged back there (but if someone did build a > road the property does become valuable (and the state would want it.))))) > > The family wants that property too. My great great grandfather had a > homestead back there, my great grandfather and my grandmother were born > there. We want to keep that. We could create co-owners in arbitrary > numbers (for a profit) giving the new co-owners the right to vote and a > credential on their intelligence at the same time. > > But keep in mind: if owning property makes one smart, then owning more > property makes one more smart. Are you ready to go there? > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 18:57:59 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:57:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: They also eventually ate their own and ended up sending many of their own to the guillotine. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I wonder how the French felt about 1800, when they had trashed mansions. > beheaded the aristocracy and so on. Were they happy then? I suspect not. > There were by a large margin not enough gilt mirrors to go around to the > poor. bill w > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:20 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously >> more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income >> Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, >> collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands >> of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. >> >> This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated >> Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, >> or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the >> overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. >> >> If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of >> mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human >> skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for >> profit and perverted fun. >> >> Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all >> discontent. >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>> *Subject:* [ExI] kruger dunning again >>> >>> >>> >>> >? Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine >>> exists but it is being withheld, and that a cure for the virus exists but >>> is being withheld? >>> >>> >>> >>> Ja that whole narrative is being fed by the case load in China falling >>> to zero. I have my notion on what is causing that: they lie. If one >>> accepts their word on it, then we get to pick an explanation, none of which >>> are very plausible. Their strict lockdown is working far better than any >>> other countries doing similar measures (quite dubious), they have some kind >>> of genetic-based immunity (we know they don?t) the virus loves communists >>> (doubt that one) any one of a number of similarly suspect theories, or they >>> must have discovered a vaccine or a cure. >>> >>> >>> >>> Given all those, I suspect they are lying with their numbers. >>> Reasoning: even if they did discover a cure, they would still have cured >>> cases, or if a vaccine, they couldn?t immunize 1.4 billion people that fast. >>> >>> >>> >>> Given those choices, I see why 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine >>> exists, but we don?t have it here. >>> >>> >>> >>> >?Now if true these would be earth-shaking facts and Hell to pay? >>> >>> >>> >>> Indeed? What hell is China going to pay, after we already know they >>> kept the outbreak secret until it could spread to the whole planet? >>> >>> >>> >>> >?It make me wonder what would have happened if owning property was a >>> prerequisite of voting. >>> >>> >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> >>> >>> Owning property doesn?t make one smart. Evidence would be to ask >>> respondents if they own property, then see what percentage thinks a secret >>> C-19 cure exists. >>> >>> >>> >>> If owning property ever became a prerequisite for voting, oh mercy that >>> would be a grand opportunity to make a buttload of money. >>> >>> >>> >>> I co-own some ?property? in West Virginia with no road to it. My >>> property taxes are under 3 dollars a year on that. It has no zoning and no >>> restrictions from sub-dividing it, as far as we know. We could study the >>> definition of the term ?property? then figure out how many separate piece >>> of ?property? could be created and sold per square foot. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon May 11 19:02:42 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:02:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. SR Ballard > On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w > >> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and that's just 2 people >> >>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of cooking oil per year... >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>> >>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to save money. >>>> >>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep track of how long you've had it. >>>> >>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>> >>>> Bill W >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 19:02:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:02:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <00ed01d627c1$20308370$60918a50$@rainier66.com> References: <00ed01d627c1$20308370$60918a50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There is a fundamental error here. Although Hitler was smart, he was also stupid. H knew he could rally the country around hating Jews, but when he did, he picked the smartest segment of the population to murder. I guess he also needed their money. (data - average American Jewish IQ = 105) bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again > > > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists > but it is being withheld, > > > > >?That's nothing>?I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would > refuse to take it or let their children take it because they think... no > that's not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Carol Baker of Baylor College of Medicine suggests a solution Germany > tried in the 1940s, mass murder: > > > > https://twitter.com/WeAreTRR/status/1255247846934224896 > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon May 11 19:03:42 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:03:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] block calls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8C1FE2-35F6-4323-9983-2E9927C8CED5@gmail.com> There are phones for little kids that only take calls from approved numbers. SR Ballard > On May 10, 2020, at 5:46 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > A cousin of mine lost her ability to drive and is now in a retirement home. Husband OK. But they took away her phone because she got calls from scammers and she just cannot process the idea that they are trying to rob her. She believes all of them. > > So - is there any way at all for her to have a phone app that blocks suspicious calls? > > Taking away a car is bad enough. All old people bemoan the loss of the ability to get around the world and do things for themselves. Taking away the phone is just another terrible thing for her. > > I'll await answers. I think I know one way: put the accepted list of numbers in the phone and block all others. Can't they do that? Is that a possibility? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 19:41:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:41:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again >?A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. >?This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. >?If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for profit and perverted fun. >?Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all discontent? Darin Hi Darin your theory holds up, with the exception of: ? a significant number of lower-income Americans actually genuinely believe? Neither the lead anchor at NBC News Brian Williams and the NY Times editorial board member Mara Gray are lower-income Americans. It would be difficult to find people with income so low they could make this six orders of magnitude error, present it with such sincere gravitas and not realize it: https://twitter.com/i/status/1235816570602975233 They kept the joke alive, with a warning to the viewer: The following media includes potentially sensitive content. (?heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeeeeeeee?) Oh mercy, sensitive content! Flee to safe space, immediately! These are the people responsible for shaping the news narrative. OK then. Wait, do let me retract, that is unjustified generalization. Not all news people are this dumb. Clearly these two are, and the camera crew, the lighting crew, the producers, all missed this enormous flub. We did this to ourselves, with the language. Having rhyming words for our big numbers was a mistake. The guy (don?t recall the name) who won California?s nomination to run for POTUS often conflated ?millionehs and billionehs? as if they were the same thing. These are two very different things. Google street view, Santa Clara County, there you will see enormous smeared-out residential neighborhoods, ordinary suburban dwellings, mow the lawn in ten minutes, your car stretches from the garage door to the sidewalk, just ordinary proletariat dwellings. Then go into Zillow and note that all these homes are worth over a million dollars, none of them even close to a billion. Here?s a screen shot from Sunnyvale, which isn?t even the trendy-spendy-high-endy part of the valley, just pokey little Sunnyvale. California nominated a guy who demonized them. He never had anything good to say about millionehs and billionehs. Perhaps the locals failed to realize everyone who owns any of these tightly-packed homes likely has a net worth over a million dollars. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 81716 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:07:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:07:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:40 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > followup -- do we think that he knows he is lying? Two possibilities > here: one is that he knows. Fine, he is a jerk but not insane. Two - he > doesn't know he is lying. Not fine. > The thing I don't get is Trump is not even a good liar, he might as well have "*I AM LYING*" tattooed on his forehead, even Trump fans knew he was lying when he said Mexico would pay for the wall but for some reason that I can't even pretend to understand they don't care, it hasn't harmed him politically. I tend to get mad at people who lie to me, especially if they don't believe I'm even worth the time to find a good lie that is not flat out ridiculous, I mean it seems to me like common courtesy to put a little effort into it, but I guess I'm just weird that way. > He needs to leave his brain to science. bill w > Do you think there is an electron microscope powerful enough to see something that small? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:11:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:11:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. SR Ballard some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) > > We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, > also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. > > Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. > > SR Ballard > > On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w > > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >> that's just 2 people >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>> cooking oil per year... >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>> >>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >>> save money. >>> >>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>> track of how long you've had it. >>> >>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>> >>> Bill W >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:15:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:15:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Some things you hear but you don't listen to. Some things you read and have used thousands of times but don't really understand. Example: how many of you know the two words that make up the contraction 'won't'?? bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again > > > > >?A huge amount of American grassroots political rhetoric makes enormously > more sense when you realize that a significant number of lower-income > Americans actually genuinely believe that the billionaire class, > collectively, has enough money to give American citizen tens of thousands > of dollars, and possibly not even miss it. > > > > >?This was made obvious a few months ago when a newscaster overestimated > Bloomberg's campaign spending (or underestimated the American population, > or both) by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude, and it went unnoticed by the > overwhelming majority of the media class, and their audience. > > > > >?If you genuinely believe that, then yes, it follows without a lot of > mental gymnastics that the giga-rich /actually are/ reptilians in human > skin [or may as well be] playing games with the lives of billions for > profit and perverted fun. > > > > >?Innumeracy may be the root, if not of all evil, at least of all > discontent? Darin > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Darin your theory holds up, with the exception of: > > > > ? a significant number of lower-income Americans actually genuinely > believe? > > > > Neither the lead anchor at NBC News Brian Williams and the NY Times > editorial board member Mara Gray are lower-income Americans. It would be > difficult to find people with income so low they could make this six orders > of magnitude error, present it with such sincere gravitas and not realize > it: > > > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1235816570602975233 > > > > They kept the joke alive, with a warning to the viewer: The following > media includes potentially sensitive content. > > > > (?heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeeeeeeee?) > > > > Oh mercy, sensitive content! Flee to safe space, immediately! > > > > These are the people responsible for shaping the news narrative. OK then. > > > > Wait, do let me retract, that is unjustified generalization. Not all news > people are this dumb. Clearly these two are, and the camera crew, the > lighting crew, the producers, all missed this enormous flub. > > > > We did this to ourselves, with the language. Having rhyming words for our > big numbers was a mistake. The guy (don?t recall the name) who won > California?s nomination to run for POTUS often conflated ?millionehs and > billionehs? as if they were the same thing. These are two very different > things. Google street view, Santa Clara County, there you will see > enormous smeared-out residential neighborhoods, ordinary suburban > dwellings, mow the lawn in ten minutes, your car stretches from the garage > door to the sidewalk, just ordinary proletariat dwellings. Then go into > Zillow and note that all these homes are worth over a million dollars, none > of them even close to a billion. > > > > Here?s a screen shot from Sunnyvale, which isn?t even the > trendy-spendy-high-endy part of the valley, just pokey little Sunnyvale. > > > > > > California nominated a guy who demonized them. He never had anything good > to say about millionehs and billionehs. Perhaps the locals failed to > realize everyone who owns any of these tightly-packed homes likely has a > net worth over a million dollars. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 81716 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:25:13 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:25:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Different strokes for different folks... I love olive oil. It's pretty much the only thing I use unless I am going to use high heat. If I'm not deep frying, I use avocado oil for high heat, otherwise peanut oil to deep fry. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. > > SR Ballard > some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) >> >> We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, >> also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. >> >> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >>> that's just 2 people >>> >>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>>> cooking oil per year... >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>> >>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to >>>> save money. >>>> >>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>>> track of how long you've had it. >>>> >>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>> >>>> Bill W >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:28:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:28:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Some things you hear but you don't listen to. Some things you read and > have used thousands of times but don't really understand. Example: how > many of you know the two words that make up the contraction 'won't'?? > bill w > Will and not is it not? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:49:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:49:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > California nominated a guy who demonized them. He never had anything good > to say about millionehs and billionehs. Perhaps the locals failed to > realize everyone who owns any of these tightly-packed homes likely has a > net worth over a million dollars. > How many of those homes do you think don't have mortgages, and of those how many do you think are primary residences (as opposed to investment property that is either kept vacant or rented, officially "secondary residences"/bolt holes owned by certain foreigners in case they need to flee their home country, et cetera)? In other words, how many of those do you think actually represent at least a million dollars in free and clear value for the people living in them? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 11 20:59:27 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:59:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Trump is strongly in favor of Strong Encryption only for government use >> so they can keep secrets from us but we can't keep secrets from them?John K >> Clark > > > *> Presidents don?t make laws. Congress does. Aren?t you glad we have a > constitution? Me too.* Spike, every time I point to something terrifying Trump has done you point to a piece of dried wood pulp and tell me not to worry because that thing will protect us from him. Have you ever seen the 1938 video of Neville Chamberlain returning from a trip to Munich and waving around a different piece of paper and claiming it would protect us from a different very bad man? Neville Chamberlain and Peace in our Time John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 21:41:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 14:41:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> Trump is strongly in favor of Strong Encryption only for government use so they can keep secrets from us but we can't keep secrets from them?John K Clark > Presidents don?t make laws. Congress does. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? Me too. Spike, every time I point to something terrifying Trump has done you point to a piece of dried wood pulp and tell me not to worry because that thing will protect us from him. Have you ever seen the 1938 video of Neville Chamberlain returning from a trip to Munich and waving around a different piece of paper and claiming it would protect us from a different very bad man? Neville Chamberlain and Peace in our Time John K Clark John, while doing an internet search for something else, I ran across an internet post by you from October 2016. You were predicting at that time all manner of horrifying futures should Trump be elected; war with Russia or other nuclear catastrophe among them. None of it happened. Up until the virus crushed economies all over the globe, we had a great run. The constitution limits the damage any one bad actor (or group of them) can do. The government?s reach is inherently and very intentionally limited, even in a crisis, as we are seeing. That dried piece of wood pulp has survived every bad politician in US history. It has survived every politician who would defeat it (which is the best definition of the term bad politician.) The anvil wears out the hammer. I am betting the constitution will live and flourish for our lifetimes and the lifetimes of those reading this message. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? I am too. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:10:45 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:10:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:00 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Spike, every time I point to something terrifying Trump has done you point > to a piece of dried wood pulp and tell me not to worry because that thing > will protect us from him. Have you ever seen the 1938 video of Neville > Chamberlain returning from a trip to Munich and waving around a different > piece of paper and claiming it would protect us from a different very bad > man? > > Neville Chamberlain and Peace in our Time > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat Finally, I hit gold with confirmation of Godwin's law! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:12:41 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:12:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <001501d624a0$af98c3c0$0eca4b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The constitution isn't all that is keeping us from totalitarianism, thank god. There is something far, far stronger, and far more manifest, immanent if you will: An extremely strong notion of conservative federalism across the nation. I mean hell, we literally call them STATES. I am left-wing but our federation is the strongest bulwark against fascism that could ever be--fifty ragtag groups of different brands of idiots who do not agree with one another. Say what you will about states' rights, but they are a hell of a defense against jingoism. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:43 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:11 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > For Rafal, I understand, because Rafal probably has a homemade fasces >> sitting over his mantel. ;) >> > > ### I do have an SPQR badge from my time in the Legion but no fasces, > never got the promotion. And like listening to the Arditi. > > I worship the AR-15 in my Lararium. > THIS is what I am looking for in a dialectic. Thank you for playing along, Rafal. See John? People who disagree can be cordial, and even joke with one another. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:13:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:13:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The smell of roasted hazelnut oil has to be one of the most delicious things I have ever experienced. Used mainly for drizzling. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Different strokes for different folks... I love olive oil. It's pretty > much the only thing I use unless I am going to use high heat. If I'm not > deep frying, I use avocado oil for high heat, otherwise peanut oil to deep > fry. > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >> >> SR Ballard >> some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) >>> >>> We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, >>> also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. >>> >>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >>> >>> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and >>>> that's just 2 people >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>>>> cooking oil per year... >>>>> >>>>> SR Ballard >>>>> >>>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>>>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>>>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>>> >>>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying >>>>> to save money. >>>>> >>>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. >>>>> They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep >>>>> track of how long you've had it. >>>>> >>>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>>> >>>>> Bill W >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:13:37 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:13:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Oops for some reason what I typed came out as a quote. Here in non-quote form: The constitution isn't all that is keeping us from totalitarianism, thank god. There is something far, far stronger, and far more manifest, immanent if you will: An extremely strong notion of conservative federalism across the nation. I mean hell, we literally call them STATES. I am left-wing but our federation is the strongest bulwark against fascism that could ever be--fifty ragtag groups of different brands of idiots who do not agree with one another. Say what you will about states' rights, but they are a hell of a defense against jingoism. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 22:17:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:17:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! Message-ID: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted "THAT'S NOT TRUE!" Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible, while the keynote speaker was adamant that it would never be done. Robert was staying at my house for that event, so we had time to discuss it. I didn't understand, being a space guy, not a bio guy. Robert was arguing that this would someday be possible: https://www.healthline.com/health-news/crispr-gene-editing-used-for-the-firs t-time-inside-a-persons-body Robert has been gone over 9 yrs now. I miss him like he left us yesterday. http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2011/03/remembering-robert-bradbury.html This is a paper that was the preliminary to a follow-on Matrioshka Brain paper he and I were working on between 2000 and about 2006. I was doing the orbit mechanics and thermo stuff, he was doing the computing stuff. http://www.gwern.net/docs/1999-bradbury-matrioshkabrains.pdf spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:19:48 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:19:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: <008401d627b4$cec03d70$6c40b850$@rainier66.com> <00a401d627cc$2043bc50$60cb34f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It just goes to show you. I don't know where I went wrong - whether it is my memory or the original source I read many years ago. It said that 'won't derives from 'wold not'. Checking with an online etymology source https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=won%27t it shows that 'will not' is correct, though looking through that little article doesn't really tell how the 'won' part fits in. My bad. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> California nominated a guy who demonized them. He never had anything >> good to say about millionehs and billionehs. Perhaps the locals failed to >> realize everyone who owns any of these tightly-packed homes likely has a >> net worth over a million dollars. >> > > How many of those homes do you think don't have mortgages, and of those > how many do you think are primary residences (as opposed to investment > property that is either kept vacant or rented, officially "secondary > residences"/bolt holes owned by certain foreigners in case they need to > flee their home country, et cetera)? > > In other words, how many of those do you think actually represent at least > a million dollars in free and clear value for the people living in them? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:43:36 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:43:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing this! On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 6:37 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley > in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. > > > > At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a > lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted ?THAT?S NOT > TRUE!? > > > > Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that > in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible, while the keynote speaker > was adamant that it would never be done. > > > > Robert was staying at my house for that event, so we had time to discuss > it. I didn?t understand, being a space guy, not a bio guy. Robert was > arguing that this would someday be possible: > > > > > https://www.healthline.com/health-news/crispr-gene-editing-used-for-the-first-time-inside-a-persons-body > > > > Robert has been gone over 9 yrs now. I miss him like he left us yesterday. > > > > > http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2011/03/remembering-robert-bradbury.html > > > > This is a paper that was the preliminary to a follow-on Matrioshka Brain > paper he and I were working on between 2000 and about 2006. I was doing > the orbit mechanics and thermo stuff, he was doing the computing stuff. > > > > http://www.gwern.net/docs/1999-bradbury-matrioshkabrains.pdf > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:16:56 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:16:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: When a distinguished, elderly person says that a certain thing that does not contravene the laws of physics will eventually be possible, said person is right, though any associated projections of exactly when (if they are not within the next 2 years) should be taken with a grain of salt. One should also keep in mind the difference between "possible" and "practical". When such a person says that a certain thing that does not contravene the laws of physics will never be possible, especially when other people are working on that very thing or its precursor capabilities, said person is usually wrong. On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley > in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. > > > > At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a > lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted ?THAT?S NOT > TRUE!? > > > > Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that > in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible, while the keynote speaker > was adamant that it would never be done. > > > > Robert was staying at my house for that event, so we had time to discuss > it. I didn?t understand, being a space guy, not a bio guy. Robert was > arguing that this would someday be possible: > > > > > https://www.healthline.com/health-news/crispr-gene-editing-used-for-the-first-time-inside-a-persons-body > > > > Robert has been gone over 9 yrs now. I miss him like he left us yesterday. > > > > > http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2011/03/remembering-robert-bradbury.html > > > > This is a paper that was the preliminary to a follow-on Matrioshka Brain > paper he and I were working on between 2000 and about 2006. I was doing > the orbit mechanics and thermo stuff, he was doing the computing stuff. > > > > http://www.gwern.net/docs/1999-bradbury-matrioshkabrains.pdf > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 23:30:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:30:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] that's not true! >?When a distinguished, elderly person says that a certain thing that does not contravene the laws of physics will eventually be possible, said person is right, though any associated projections of exactly when (if they are not within the next 2 years) should be taken with a grain of salt. One should also keep in mind the difference between "possible" and "practical". >?When such a person says that a certain thing that does not contravene the laws of physics will never be possible, especially when other people are working on that very thing or its precursor capabilities, said person is usually wrong? Adrian Hi Adrian, were you at that conference? As I recall you are one of the guys who has hung out here a long time. The big stars at that conference were Greg Burch, Anders Sandberg and Sasha Chislenko. What a treat it was, a privilege I scarcely deserve, to bask in their presence. Sasha spoke on collaborative filtering, Anders spoke on statistical modeling and the impact of uploading, Greg spoke on the importance of near-term focus. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:55:56 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:55:56 +1000 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 04:13, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists >> but it is being withheld, >> > > That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to > astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-1 > 9 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to > take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not > the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. > So it would then effectively be a virus that takes out dumb people. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 11 23:56:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:56:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Adrian, were you at that conference? As I recall you are one of the > guys who has hung out here a long time. > Back in 2008 you said this... > Adrian, we met as you recall at Extro4 in 1999 ...which suggests I was there. (My extended electronic memory is far from complete, but it remembers much that my biological memory has long since forgotten. Too bad it's not as accessible by my currently-biological-based consciousness.) But this is beside the point. There is a trap that many fall into, of thinking that only the current methods are the methods that will ever be usable, and that what is merely impractical today is actually impossible - and can never be made possible. Personally, I have escaped that trap by remaining aware of the difference, and more importantly, of what makes something impractical (or in fact impossible) today - and thus, what would need to be improved or discovered in order to make something possible and practical. That way, my predictions of impossibility or impracticality - gated on those limiting factors - remain true: even if the thing does become practical someday, the path involved finding a solution to what I said needed to be solved. (This is also quite useful in giving pointers to those stubborn and determined to make the thing practical someday; whether or not they succeed, they can at least save a lot of time and effort not repeating other peoples' mistakes. Sometimes, that stubborn and determined person turns out to be me, so I have a personal interest in this approach.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 11 23:58:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 16:58:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] elon opens Message-ID: <01ef01d627f0$0a168290$1e4387b0$@rainier66.com> California governor declared that manufacturing could re-open, but the Alameda county authority said no. Elon Musk said he was opening anyway. Did it: https://www.ktvu.com/news/parking-lot-appears-full-at-tesla-after-ceo-elon-m usk-sues-over-shelter-in-place No one was arrested. After a trade of insults, Musk threatened to take his HQ to another state. The governor and the mayor of Palo Alto are imploring Alameda county authorities to stand down forthwith. I am cheering for Musk: that Fremont factory is a 6 minute dreamy counterflow commute from here. That factory has sent our local school's average test scores and real estate values thru the roof, which causes the locals to love the guy with all our hearts, even if it is for selfish reasons. I disqualify my own attitude, because I directly benefit from that factory, and several of my neighbors drive Teslas, which lowers my power costs (explanation available on request.) Those who do not have any direct benefit from Musk's actions or the restrictions, I would be interested to hear your comments on his re-opening the factory against county orders. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 00:08:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:08:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01fb01d627f1$6a1d8750$3e5895f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] kruger dunning again On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 04:13, John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists but it is being withheld, That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-19 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. So it would then effectively be a virus that takes out dumb people. -- Stathis Papaioannou John, did you mean Obama voters? "We've seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it's connected to the vaccines. This person included. The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it." --Barack Obama, Pennsylvania Rally, April 21, 2008. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 00:29:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 17:29:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <022b01d627f4$78293bc0$687bb340$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] that's not true! On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Hi Adrian, were you at that conference? As I recall you are one of the guys who has hung out here a long time. Back in 2008 you said this... > Adrian, we met as you recall at Extro4 in 1999 ...which suggests I was there? JA! You and I had lunch with Jeff Davis and Dan (I can?t remember the last name) who was the semi-professional poker player. Wasn?t that you who was with us, as Jeff went on about his evacuated tube train idea? I vaguely remember that lunch, but not what you were into at the time. I recall you were young, about 25 at the time? I tell ya what I was into in those days: I was really going on the collective computing projects. Oh, Damien Broderick made the scene, he and I got to talking about that, in a discussion that ended up in Damien?s singularity book. Greg Burch rented a little sports car of some sort, which had four seats but the back ones were made for kids. Robert Bradbury, Greg Burch, Anders Sandberg and Mike Lorrey were staying at my house (my bride went to visit her parents that weekend.) The four of those guys crammed themselves into Burch?s tiny rented sports car and went up, I rode a motorcycle separately. After the main event where Robert that?s-not-trued the keynote speaker, there was a party on campus. If you are aware of Berkeley, the campus itself is nice enough but it is surrounded by some really scary neighborhoods. Not knowing better, I parked the bike out a ways and walked in. At the party, the K ERIC himself talked to me. I had been following Drexler like a teenage groupie girl, listening to his talks, since Engines of Creation came out. So at this party he was talking to me like I was his equal, THE K ERIC himself, and Christine Petersen. We visited until late, then when it was time to go, I said to him, Hey Eric you should loan me your cryonics bracelet. I have to walk back through a Berkeley neighborhood in my wool business suit. They might think I am a republican and kill me! He said No problem, we are heading back, we can drive you over to your bike. So not only did the K Eric treat me like an equal, he saved my life. That was my life?s high tide. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 12 00:55:42 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:55:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] elon opens In-Reply-To: <01ef01d627f0$0a168290$1e4387b0$@rainier66.com> References: <01ef01d627f0$0a168290$1e4387b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have no dog in the fight, and frequently think Musk is guilty of being the biggest carnival barker since P.T. Barnum but I can't help but like his boldness and SpaceX in particular. Anyways, I have been following this as well, and fully support him reopening the factory against orders, just like I supported the brave woman in Texas who reopened her salon. https://youtu.be/0zXajYDnprQ On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > California governor declared that manufacturing could re-open, but the > Alameda county authority said no. Elon Musk said he was opening anyway. > Did it: > > > > > https://www.ktvu.com/news/parking-lot-appears-full-at-tesla-after-ceo-elon-musk-sues-over-shelter-in-place > > > > No one was arrested. After a trade of insults, Musk threatened to take > his HQ to another state. The governor and the mayor of Palo Alto are > imploring Alameda county authorities to stand down forthwith. > > > > I am cheering for Musk: that Fremont factory is a 6 minute dreamy > counterflow commute from here. That factory has sent our local school?s > average test scores and real estate values thru the roof, which causes the > locals to love the guy with all our hearts, even if it is for selfish > reasons. > > > > I disqualify my own attitude, because I directly benefit from that > factory, and several of my neighbors drive Teslas, which lowers my power > costs (explanation available on request.) Those who do not have any direct > benefit from Musk?s actions or the restrictions, I would be interested to > hear your comments on his re-opening the factory against county orders. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue May 12 01:03:08 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:03:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: <022b01d627f4$78293bc0$687bb340$@rainier66.com> References: <017d01d627e1$e608ce70$b21a6b50$@rainier66.com> <01df01d627ec$2ddbe840$8993b8c0$@rainier66.com> <022b01d627f4$78293bc0$687bb340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I vaguely remember that lunch, but not what you were into at the time. I > recall you were young, about 25 at the time? > August 1999, yes? I was 24 at that time. I believe I was starting NetRendered around then, which would later become my second commercial success. (Outsourced video rendering platform - essentially, CGI-focused cloud computing before "cloud computing" was a popular term.) I tell ya what I was into in those days: I was really going on the > collective computing projects. > That may well have been what started our conversation. NetRendered might not have been nearly as grand or promising as some of those dreams, but it was real, and a step toward them. That was my life?s high tide. > Yeah, that seems to be a difference between me and most people: what high tide? I am now 45. My current project CubeCab is of greater scope, greater potential personal payoff, greater potential payoff for humanity, and so on than NetRendered was. I anticipate doing more, possibly grander projects when I am 75, then as I pass the 100 mark, and eventually when I am 150, then 200, and beyond for as long as I can. (Perhaps until the day when there are no more projects like this to be done, or I can fulfill my goals more effectively in some other capacity, or perhaps hiveminds arise and "I" merge into one.) Some of these milestones will require cryonics, uploading, or some other such measure; cryonics if nothing else, as it exists now (at least the suspension part, hopefully resulting in a form that can eventually be reanimated, uploaded, or similar). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 12 01:17:56 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 21:17:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? Message-ID: Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but I'm curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, etc.). Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension (hopefully!) stack: Pulsed rapamycin Metformin Candesartan Low dose tadalafil nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene Resveratrol I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some potential side effects. I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other enhancers people are experimenting with. I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone is interested. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 01:53:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:53:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So it would then effectively be a virus that takes out dumb people. > -- *Stathis Papaioannou* *I know of a lot of people who would want to spread that around - guess where.* * bill w* On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 6:58 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 04:13, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > Surveys show that about 30% of Americans believe that a vaccine exists >>> but it is being withheld, >>> >> >> That's nothing, in our modern era stupidity can be brought to >> astonishingly high levels never before dreamed of. Even if we had a COVID-1 >> 9 vaccine I would not be surprised if 30% of Trump voters would refuse >> to take it or let their children take it because they think... no that's >> not the right word,,, they believe it will cause autism. >> > > So it would then effectively be a virus that takes out dumb people. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 01:56:42 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:56:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] elon opens In-Reply-To: References: <01ef01d627f0$0a168290$1e4387b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There are no reasons a car factory must stay shut. bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:58 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have no dog in the fight, and frequently think Musk is guilty of being > the biggest carnival barker since P.T. Barnum but I can't help but like his > boldness and SpaceX in particular. > > Anyways, I have been following this as well, and fully support him > reopening the factory against orders, just like I supported the brave woman > in Texas who reopened her salon. > > https://youtu.be/0zXajYDnprQ > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> California governor declared that manufacturing could re-open, but the >> Alameda county authority said no. Elon Musk said he was opening anyway. >> Did it: >> >> >> >> >> https://www.ktvu.com/news/parking-lot-appears-full-at-tesla-after-ceo-elon-musk-sues-over-shelter-in-place >> >> >> >> No one was arrested. After a trade of insults, Musk threatened to take >> his HQ to another state. The governor and the mayor of Palo Alto are >> imploring Alameda county authorities to stand down forthwith. >> >> >> >> I am cheering for Musk: that Fremont factory is a 6 minute dreamy >> counterflow commute from here. That factory has sent our local school?s >> average test scores and real estate values thru the roof, which causes the >> locals to love the guy with all our hearts, even if it is for selfish >> reasons. >> >> >> >> I disqualify my own attitude, because I directly benefit from that >> factory, and several of my neighbors drive Teslas, which lowers my power >> costs (explanation available on request.) Those who do not have any direct >> benefit from Musk?s actions or the restrictions, I would be interested to >> hear your comments on his re-opening the factory against county orders. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Tue May 12 02:17:49 2020 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 19:17:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Olive oil is one of the best foods ever. It prolonges life. Of course I'm biased being Italian. But there are reasons why Italian people are the healthiest among the industrialized countries. Olive oil is a big component of it. By the way cook like an Italian and the 12 months shelf period is not going to be a problem. You will run out of olive much sooner. And yes better to buy small batches anyway. Giovanni On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The smell of roasted hazelnut oil has to be one of the most delicious > things I have ever experienced. Used mainly for drizzling. bill w > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Different strokes for different folks... I love olive oil. It's pretty >> much the only thing I use unless I am going to use high heat. If I'm not >> deep frying, I use avocado oil for high heat, otherwise peanut oil to deep >> fry. >> >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w >>> >>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) >>>> >>>> We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every >>>> night, also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. >>>> >>>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>> On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home >>>>> and that's just 2 people >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of >>>>>> cooking oil per year... >>>>>> >>>>>> SR Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin >>>>>> olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most >>>>>> of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>>>> >>>>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying >>>>>> to save money. >>>>>> >>>>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil >>>>>> rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing >>>>>> and keep track of how long you've had it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill W >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 12 03:17:54 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 20:17:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stego was Re: Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: wrote: snip > I have figured out a way to do cryto-cryptography: we can send messages completely securely in such a way that it couldn?t be proven that it contained a secret message. I do not claim to be the first person to discover this; the notion might be over a century old. My spin on it is this: snip > Wouldn?t that be cool? "Been done, the program name is Stego, open-source, the author is Romana Machado, one of the few female Extropians and famous in her own right. One of Romana's Exclave parties was where (in a conversation with Kennita Watson) I made the conceptual jump for the paper "Sex, Drugs, and Cults." Keith From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue May 12 03:30:12 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 21:30:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good Question. I'm in no way an expert at any of this, so I just trust the experts at Thrivous, and take both of these stacks: https://thrivous.com/products/nootropic-stack https://thrivous.com/products/geroprotector-stack Is there anything I'm missing with these? On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:19 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but I'm > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, > etc.). > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension > (hopefully!) stack: > > Pulsed rapamycin > Metformin > Candesartan > Low dose tadalafil > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene > Resveratrol > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some > potential side effects. > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other > enhancers people are experimenting with. > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone is > interested. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 12 05:00:59 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 22:00:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again Message-ID: John Clark wrote: > The thing I don't get is Trump is not even a good liar, he might as well have "*I AM LYING*" tattooed on his forehead, even Trump fans knew he was lying when he said Mexico would pay for the wall > but for some reason that I can't even pretend to understand they don't care, it hasn't harmed him politically. John, you are seeing humans in their stressed-out mode. They pass around xenophobic memes and are attracted to irrational leaders. That sounds like a really bad way to get your genes into the next generation, but when you analyze it, it turns out that following irrational leaders made your genes more likely to get into the next generation (in some circumstances). Stressed out people are dangerous. If you don't want to consider the current POTUS, then look into the history of Germany. Speaking of nutty memes, in the UK they have a problem of people who hold the meme that 5G cell phone towers are causing COVID-19. At least that has not happened here, at least I have not heard about it yet. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Tue May 12 06:06:41 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 23:06:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] kruger dunning again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Speaking of nutty memes, in the UK they have a problem of people who > hold the meme that 5G cell phone towers are causing COVID-19. At > least that has not happened here, at least I have not heard about it > yet. > I've heard people asking about it in the US. They were quickly dissuaded, though - almost like plants trying to come up with ways to sow discord, and being weak at it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue May 12 07:33:36 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:33:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/05/2020 23:20, Spike wrote: > > Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at > Berkeley in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell > level. > > At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a > lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted > ?THAT?S NOT TRUE!? > > Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that > in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible > "in-vivo", not "in-vitro". In-vitro means 'in glass' (i.e. petri dishes, etc.) -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue May 12 07:56:14 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:56:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting. Perhaps Robert was arguing against the idea that NOT EVEN in-vitro gene editing would never be possible? On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 9:35 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 11/05/2020 23:20, Spike wrote: > > Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. > > > > At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted ?THAT?S NOT TRUE!? > > > > Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible > > > "in-vivo", not "in-vitro". > > In-vitro means 'in glass' (i.e. petri dishes, etc.) > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 12 12:30:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:30:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Up until the virus crushed economies all over the globe, we had a > great run.* > Great run? The wealth gap between rich and poor is accelerating worse than ever, and even before the virus Obama grew the economy faster than Trump did, and Obama inherited the second worst economic situation in the last hundred years.... well third worst now: US Economic Growth And yes after the virus came the GDP would decline under any president, but Trump's bungling made it far worse. In the first quarter the GDP of South Korea declined by 1.4%, in the USA it declined by 4.8%. And today the unemployment rate in the USA is 14.7%, in South Korea It's 3.8%. And both countries reported their first case of COVID-19 on the same day. And even before the virus Trump increased the national debt that you're so worried about much faster than Obama did. Change in debt *> The constitution limits the damage any one bad actor (or group of them) > can do. * > You're so confident that little piece of paper can protect you from anything that you won't even lift a finger to prevent the bad actor from gaining power in the first place, such as by putting a checkmark on your ballot next to a presidential candidate that actually has a fighting chance of beating the bad actor, instead you go for Mr. Nobody from the Very Silly Party that will be completely forgotten by history 10 minutes after the polls close. > *> Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? * > I'd have no worries whatsoever if it was as difficult to violate the constitution as it is to violate the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, but that is not the case. The constitution is not the divine word of God either, it is the end result of a series of compromises made by a bunch of very fallible human beings. And the Constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means, and the Supreme Court is full of Trump flunkies. Trump promised in 2016 that he would make his tax returns public, but he did what he always does, he lied. Trump wants to keep his tax returns secret so badly that he took the case all the way to the supreme court and they will be hearing arguments about it today, but I think there is little chance the court will do the right thing and let the American people see those damming tax returns, at least not before the election. I hope I'm wrong. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 12 12:44:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:44:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 6:14 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Finally, I hit gold with confirmation of Godwin's law! * > In my humble opinion Godwin's law would be on the list of the 10 dumbest things you can find on the internet, I'm not saying it would necessarily be #1 but it would be on that list. And somewhere on the list of 10 smartest things would be "*Those that do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it*". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 12 12:48:04 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:48:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I certainly agree with you that Hitler references are one of the dumbest things people do on the internet! On Tue, May 12, 2020, 8:46 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 6:14 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *Finally, I hit gold with confirmation of Godwin's law! * >> > > In my humble opinion Godwin's law would be on the list of the 10 dumbest > things you can find on the internet, I'm not saying it would necessarily be > #1 but it would be on that list. And somewhere on the list of 10 smartest > things would be "*Those that do not learn from history are condemned to > repeat it*". > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 12 12:56:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 08:56:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 8:53 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Hitler references are one of the dumbest things people do on the > internet!* > So we should pretend that the man never existed? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 12 13:32:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:32:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think you know that is not what I am saying, but comparing Trump to Hitler is hyperbole and unhelpful in fostering a meaningful discussion. On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 8:58 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 8:53 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *> Hitler references are one of the dumbest things people do on the >> internet!* >> > > So we should pretend that the man never existed? > > John K Clark > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue May 12 14:16:42 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 10:16:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My strategy is more lifestyle-oriented: - eating well - staying active - avoiding stress - getting enough sleep - enjoying life without taking unnecessary risks - avoiding COVID by isolating, working from home - challenging myself with learning new skills and being creative -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 14:49:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 07:49:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] that's not true! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009a01d6286c$844e6ec0$8ceb4c40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 12:34 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Ben Zaiboc Subject: Re: [ExI] that's not true! On 11/05/2020 23:20, Spike wrote: Those of you who were at the Extro4 BioTech Futures conference at Berkeley in 1999 perhaps remember a talk about DNA editing at the cell level. At a particularly dramatic moment as the keynote speaker was giving a lecture on the topic, our own Robert Bradbury stood and shouted "THAT'S NOT TRUE!" Those two argued as the audience listened, with Robert arguing that in-vitro gene editing will someday be possible "in-vivo", not "in-vitro". In-vitro means 'in glass' (i.e. petri dishes, etc.) -- Ben Zaiboc Ja thanks Ben. Robert's notion is that we would figure out a way to do CRISPR (didn't have that name yet) in the body using some sort of nanotech or a virus or some other means he was always dreaming up. Had he lived, he would be doing back flips. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue May 12 14:49:21 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:49:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] olive oil In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am sure that, like Kale or Natto, many gross things are very good for me. SR Ballard > On May 11, 2020, at 9:17 PM, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat wrote: > > Olive oil is one of the best foods ever. > It prolonges life. > Of course I'm biased being Italian. > But there are reasons why Italian people are the healthiest among the industrialized countries. > Olive oil is a big component of it. > By the way cook like an Italian and the 12 months shelf period is not going to be a problem. > You will run out of olive much sooner. > And yes better to buy small batches anyway. > > Giovanni > > > > >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> The smell of roasted hazelnut oil has to be one of the most delicious things I have ever experienced. Used mainly for drizzling. bill w >> >>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>> Different strokes for different folks... I love olive oil. It's pretty much the only thing I use unless I am going to use high heat. If I'm not deep frying, I use avocado oil for high heat, otherwise peanut oil to deep fry. >>> >>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> some things are good for sharing - others.......... bill w >>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 2:18 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> I use only Peanut oil and my fianc? likes deep-frying potatoes :) >>>>> >>>>> We also pan fry potatoes every morning and saut? vegetables every night, also use it for coating bread and bowls, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Personally, olive oil tastes horrible and makes me want to vomit. >>>>> >>>>> SR Ballard >>>>> >>>>>> On May 10, 2020, at 7:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Five gallons? Are you drinking it? bill w >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 10:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>> Ya that's what I was going to say as well. We use a lot in my home and that's just 2 people >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, May 9, 2020, 23:13 SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>>> How does a bottle last you so long? I go through nearly 5 gallons of cooking oil per year... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> SR Ballard >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 9, 2020, at 8:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Re-reading Samin Nosrat's wonderful cookbook, I see that extra virgin olive oil goes rancid in 12 to 14 months. What!!?? So I'll bet that most of us have a big container of it, rancid as hell. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So I am going to buy small bottles of the best stuff and quit trying to save money. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Truly out of sight factoid: most people like their olive oil rancid. They, and previously I, don't know to check the date of pressing and keep track of how long you've had it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am going to buy Colavita and be done with it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bill W >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:23:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 11:23:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will join with you. Here is a list of what I take for thyroid cancer, borderline diabetes, osteoarthritis, back pain, and peripheral neuropathy (nothing works for just craziness). I too will share what I take them for if requested. naproxen sodium, turmeric, alpha lipoic acid, Xanax, zinc, B complex, C, SAM e, magnesium, benfotiamine, D3, optimized folate, butyric acid, docusate, metformin These keep me alive. How do I know that? I am alive. QED viz. Descartes bill w On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:20 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but I'm > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, > etc.). > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension > (hopefully!) stack: > > Pulsed rapamycin > Metformin > Candesartan > Low dose tadalafil > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene > Resveratrol > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some > potential side effects. > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other > enhancers people are experimenting with. > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone is > interested. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 16:29:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:29:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat ? >?You're so confident that little piece of paper can protect you from anything? It uses a similar line of reasoning to the notion that the US can continue to run enormous deficits forever: we have been doing it since 1835 and it hasn?t caused any collapse. The Constitution has been protecting Americans since 1789 and hasn?t caused any collapse. I am betting on the constitution surviving the coming financial catastrophe. >?that you won't even lift a finger to prevent the bad actor from gaining power in the first place? I lifted a finger: I voted libertarian. But I live in a free state: party doesn?t matter here. We already know which party will win by a landslide. If it is close enough for a Californian?s vote to matter, the election is not close enough for a Californian?s vote to matter. All those who live in free states should vote for their ideological favorites. This strengthens those parties and sends a message to the mainstreamers: we matter. John you like to go on about how unfair it is that a person from Wyoming?s vote is worth 53 times as much, but Wyoming is also a free state: their votes don?t matter either. If it is close in Wyoming, it isn?t close. The votes that really matter are those from Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, the big swingers. Those big swing states really decide. Is it fair that their votes count when the others really don?t? Well, that?s what the constitution demands, and the constitution is good, so it must be good. Of course you could argue that the fault is in states for making their states winner-take-all to the Electoral College. If they split their delegates, Florida wouldn?t be such a huge prize. The 2000 election would have gone the other way. However? the winner-take-all policy is not in the constitution and is not controlled at a federal level. That is a state level decision. So? move to Florida and convince them to split their EC delegates, as Maine and Nebraska already do, making both those states nearly irrelevant. >? such as by putting a checkmark on your ballot next to a presidential candidate that actually has a fighting chance of beating the bad actor? OK, so imagine this: the current front runner of the mainstream opposition party (can?t recall the name of it (or his name)) gets nominated, his condition gets worse, debate, he is asked what he will do about the budget deficit, he starts going on about how he will do this or that if elected to represent Delaware in the senate, then on to a rambling commentary about Corn Pop and children rubbing his leg hairs and so on, then suddenly the screen goes dark and there are some technical difficulties. His staff cancels all remaining speaking appointments, but it is clear enough what is going on. Now his chances of being elected are worse than the third party candidates. He will get trounced; by your reasoning it is not justifiable to vote for him. I do not buy this line of reasoning. OK in that scenario, now we have this bad actor and whoever the Libertarians nominate next month, and whoever the Greens nominate in two months, plus a handful of lesser-known party?s candidates. >? instead you go for Mr. Nobody from the Very Silly Party that will be completely forgotten by history 10 minutes after the polls close? Libertarians spanned the gap in enough states that they could have swung the election. Neither of the mainstream candidates so much as tossed us a bone. The fiscal conservatives alone could have swung that election, yet neither mainstream candidate even talked about the deficit. Too bad for the mainstream candidates. > Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? >?I'd have no worries whatsoever if it was as difficult to violate the constitution as it is to violate the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, but that is not the case? John K Clark OK so have no worries whatsoever. When it comes to seizing power, the constitution is harder to violate than the second law, which is why it has never been done, even though nearly everyone at that level of power would have cheerfully done so. I am betting on the constitution. The anvil wears out the hammers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:34:38 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 12:34:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > These keep me alive. How do I know that? I am alive. > The fact that you're alive proves only that they haven't killed you yet. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:47:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 11:47:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The fact that you're alive proves only that they haven't killed you yet. -Dave *If I died it would not prove that the pills killed me. Anyway, I know that some of them work, and others are there because I am a sucker for a positive review of anything that might help me. As is obvious from the list. If it does not hurt, and it might help, then take if you can afford it. The problem: "take vitamin E' 'don't waste your time with vitamin E' , 'take resveratol', 'don't waste you money on resveratol' and so on. As we know, there's no money in doing good research on supplements because they are so cheap and unpatented. * *bill w* On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 11:40 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> These keep me alive. How do I know that? I am alive. >> > > The fact that you're alive proves only that they haven't killed you yet. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:51:02 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 09:51:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 6:44 AM Dylan Distasi wrote: > I think you know that is not what I am saying, but comparing Trump to > Hitler is hyperbole and unhelpful in fostering a meaningful discussion. I disagree, though the particular people (Hitler and Trump) are less important than the social and economic conditions that caused their rise to influence. Stressed people spread xenophobic memes and promote irrational leaders. Why? Because in the stone age genes were selected for this behavior when people were facing bleak times. I can think of no discussions more meaningful than understanding what motivates people, especially stressed people facing a bleak future. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 12 17:06:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 13:06:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:33 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *>When it comes to seizing power, the constitution is harder to violate > than the second law, * Oh come on Spike! > which is why it has never been done, even though nearly everyone at that > level of power would have cheerfully done so. I don't think that's true, Washington could have easily made himself dictator but he chose not to, and when his second term was over he quietly went back to his farm; on a list of victorious generals that makes him almost unique, the only other one like that I can think of is the Roman General Cincinnatus. I don't think Eisenhower wanted to be a dictator either but he couldn't have done it easily even if he had. But Trump does want to be dictator and he already has the Senate and the Supreme Court in his pocket, not to mention the Attorney General. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 17:23:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 10:23:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > which is why it has never been done, even though nearly everyone at that level of power would have cheerfully done so. >?I don't think that's true, Washington could have easily made himself dictator but he chose not to? This makes me a big fan of Washington. He was the first and perhaps only libertarian to be elected to that high office. He set an important precedent that was followed but not codified into law until a century and a half later. He left office after two terms, as did his successors. >? But Trump does want to be dictator and he already has the Senate and the Supreme Court in his pocket, not to mention the Attorney General. John K Clark Then why didn?t he do it? Because the constitution prevents it. The SCOTUS will swear in whoever it collectively believes wins the EC vote in December 2020. What I see as a bigger threat: a seriously disputed election, not by the players but by the voters. You have long known my uneasiness with machine voting, but now with expanded use of mail-in ballots and ballot harvesting, that problem gets worse. We may not know who won the coming election. It was kinda that way in 2000, but it didn?t matter then: the candidates were indistinguishable to most voters. This time around, many voters claim they can tell them apart, but I still cannot. What has either of them said to convince me they know what to do when the lenders suddenly stop lending? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 17:38:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 10:38:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] most disturbing Message-ID: <001901d62884$384ef0e0$a8ecd2a0$@rainier66.com> A disturbing thought occurred to me. We are often focused on preventing mass murder, but the virus has handed bad actors a cheap new means. People who live in dry climates know that often when there are outdoor events, a low-cost cooling technique is to spray a fine water mist into the air (the Mr. Mister.) These are often seen at picnics and rallies and such in the summer. A bad actor could use one of those with nothing more than the stuff easily found at the local hardware store. It would not require a compressor or anything exotic. All it would require is at least one infected person to spray the virus into the air wherever there is a crowd, at an outdoor rally, party, sporting event. Very little risk to the bad guy, very low cost, very little technical expertise required. Now the dilemma: how to get rally and picnic organizers to stop using those things without publishing details on how a bad guy could use it to intentionally spread disease? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 17:40:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 12:40:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huh? What motivates stressed people is stress. The problem with many is that they don't have a lot of coping mechanisms and when those don't work, anything looks good to try. But I do think that all this stress will, in the long run, be good for people. Some will find coping mechanisms that work and will use them regularly. Some will find that they can, in fact, survive a lot of stress. People will look back on this and tell grandchildren about it and what they suffered. Many who were always griping about needing a rest, got a big one. Lots of soul-searching out there; job changing; relationship changing. In many ways this is a unique opportunity to study people. We know one thing: they will clear the toilet paper aisle, first thing. bill w On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 11:55 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 6:44 AM Dylan Distasi wrote: > > > I think you know that is not what I am saying, but comparing Trump to > > Hitler is hyperbole and unhelpful in fostering a meaningful discussion. > > I disagree, though the particular people (Hitler and Trump) are less > important than the social and economic conditions that caused their > rise to influence. > > Stressed people spread xenophobic memes and promote irrational > leaders. Why? Because in the stone age genes were selected for this > behavior when people were facing bleak times. > > I can think of no discussions more meaningful than understanding what > motivates people, especially stressed people facing a bleak future. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 17:43:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 12:43:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: many voters claim they can tell them apart, but I still cannot. What has either of them said to convince me they know what to do when the lenders suddenly stop lending? spike What if you were not a one issue guy, Spike? Could you not tell them apart then? bill w On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > > > > > > > which is why it has never been done, even though nearly everyone at > that level of power would have cheerfully done so. > > > > >?I don't think that's true, Washington could have easily made himself > dictator but he chose not to? > > > > This makes me a big fan of Washington. He was the first and perhaps only > libertarian to be elected to that high office. He set an important > precedent that was followed but not codified into law until a century and a > half later. He left office after two terms, as did his successors. > > > > >? But Trump does want to be dictator and he already has the Senate and > the Supreme Court in his pocket, not to mention the Attorney General. John > K Clark > > > > Then why didn?t he do it? Because the constitution prevents it. The > SCOTUS will swear in whoever it collectively believes wins the EC vote in > December 2020. > > > > What I see as a bigger threat: a seriously disputed election, not by the > players but by the voters. You have long known my uneasiness with machine > voting, but now with expanded use of mail-in ballots and ballot harvesting, > that problem gets worse. > > > > We may not know who won the coming election. It was kinda that way in > 2000, but it didn?t matter then: the candidates were indistinguishable to > most voters. This time around, many voters claim they can tell them apart, > but I still cannot. What has either of them said to convince me they know > what to do when the lenders suddenly stop lending? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 12 17:43:43 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 13:43:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] most disturbing In-Reply-To: <001901d62884$384ef0e0$a8ecd2a0$@rainier66.com> References: <001901d62884$384ef0e0$a8ecd2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike- Although it requires a bit more know how, a professional bad actor could also easily repurpose agricultural drones for a much more effective distribution. That said, we can count ourselves lucky that unless it is a bunch of elderly folks, especially ones with one or more comorbities, the actual fatality rate if it is COVID-19 will be extremely low. It may be an effective weapon for terror, but it isn't one for mass murder. On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > A disturbing thought occurred to me. > > > > We are often focused on preventing mass murder, but the virus has handed > bad actors a cheap new means. > > > > People who live in dry climates know that often when there are outdoor > events, a low-cost cooling technique is to spray a fine water mist into the > air (the Mr. Mister.) These are often seen at picnics and rallies and such > in the summer. > > > > A bad actor could use one of those with nothing more than the stuff easily > found at the local hardware store. It would not require a compressor or > anything exotic. All it would require is at least one infected person to > spray the virus into the air wherever there is a crowd, at an outdoor > rally, party, sporting event. Very little risk to the bad guy, very low > cost, very little technical expertise required. > > > > Now the dilemma: how to get rally and picnic organizers to stop using > those things without publishing details on how a bad guy could use it to > intentionally spread disease? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue May 12 18:23:50 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 14:23:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] US politics (was: Even India and Haiti do it better) In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What if you were not a one issue guy, Spike? Could you not tell them > apart then? > I'm not Spike, but, for me, the two major parties are more alike than different: - neither wants to end wars - neither wants to drastically shrink the federal budget - neither wants to end the drug war - neither wants to end unwarranted surveillance - neither wants to end civil asset forfeiture The areas where they differ are, to me, much less important. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 18:35:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 11:35:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005f01d6288c$1d1f95b0$575ec110$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better many voters claim they can tell them apart, but I still cannot. What has either of them said to convince me they know what to do when the lenders suddenly stop lending? spike What if you were not a one issue guy, Spike? Could you not tell them apart then? bill w Hi BillW, I see that one issue as so critically important, I fail to see why we flap around about the other stuff, abortion, guns, schools lunch programs, all the usual sound and fury signifying nothing. None of that stuff is really going to change, right up until the day the Fed starts soft-defaulting on a lot of stuff: foreign aid drops suddenly and dramatically, Social Security recipients are underpaid, Medicare recipients are underpaid, federal subsidies to a number of things reduced, interstate highways under-repaired, the military has big layoffs (layoffs?) all the rest of it. But I ask again: what happens when the lenders suddenly stop lending? Is it really so hard to foresee? We know of a run on the bank, when something happens where there is a sudden loss of faith, as in George Bailey?s Savings and Loan, a run by depositors. There are so many positive feedback loops, exactly the kind of thing which causes Ponzi schemes to collapse: a sudden collective realization of the risk, everyone trying to get their money out in time. OK so what if I were not a one-issue guy? What if I had to pick something else to worry about and vote, something that the Fed does. That second issue would be conservation. If I pick a second issue, it would be that. I would be a Green. Now I land in a second small party, and I still can scarcely tell the two majors apart. Can you? spike On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better > which is why it has never been done, even though nearly everyone at that level of power would have cheerfully done so. >?I don't think that's true, Washington could have easily made himself dictator but he chose not to? This makes me a big fan of Washington. He was the first and perhaps only libertarian to be elected to that high office. He set an important precedent that was followed but not codified into law until a century and a half later. He left office after two terms, as did his successors. >? But Trump does want to be dictator and he already has the Senate and the Supreme Court in his pocket, not to mention the Attorney General. John K Clark Then why didn?t he do it? Because the constitution prevents it. The SCOTUS will swear in whoever it collectively believes wins the EC vote in December 2020. What I see as a bigger threat: a seriously disputed election, not by the players but by the voters. You have long known my uneasiness with machine voting, but now with expanded use of mail-in ballots and ballot harvesting, that problem gets worse. We may not know who won the coming election. It was kinda that way in 2000, but it didn?t matter then: the candidates were indistinguishable to most voters. This time around, many voters claim they can tell them apart, but I still cannot. What has either of them said to convince me they know what to do when the lenders suddenly stop lending? spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue May 12 18:40:46 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 14:40:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > [...]neither mainstream candidate even talked about the deficit. Too bad > for the mainstream candidates. > EXACTLY! It's the candidates' election to lose, NOT the voters'! One vote does not matter. Statistics matter. Swaths of voters matter, and their decisions are influenced by much higher forces. If a shitty candidate loses, it's their fault. if Biden loses, it's his fault. The game is convincing the voters. If you can't, you lose. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue May 12 18:57:14 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 14:57:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Life extension via lifestyle - sleep Message-ID: https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_walker_sleep_is_your_superpower?language=en Here's the transcript for those prefer to read. -Dave 00:12 Thank you very much. Well, I would like to start with testicles. ? 00:18 (Laughter) ? 00:21 Men who sleep five hours a night have significantly smaller testicles than those who sleep seven hours or more. ? 00:29 (Laughter) ? 00:32 In addition, men who routinely sleep just four to five hours a night will have a level of testosterone which is that of someone 10 years their senior. So a lack of sleep will age a man by a decade in terms of that critical aspect of wellness. And we see equivalent impairments in female reproductive health caused by a lack of sleep. ? 01:03 This is the best news that I have for you today. ? 01:05 (Laughter) ? 01:08 >From this point, it may only get worse. Not only will I tell you about the wonderfully good things that happen when you get sleep, but the alarmingly bad things that happen when you don't get enough, both for your brain and for your body. ? 01:23 Let me start with the brain and the functions of learning and memory, because what we've discovered over the past 10 or so years is that you need sleep after learning to essentially hit the save button on those new memories so that you don't forget. But recently, we discovered that you also need sleep before learning to actually prepare your brain, almost like a dry sponge ready to initially soak up new information. And without sleep, the memory circuits of the brain essentially become waterlogged, as it were, and you can't absorb new memories. ? 02:04 So let me show you the data. Here in this study, we decided to test the hypothesis that pulling the all-nighter was a good idea. So we took a group of individuals and we assigned them to one of two experimental groups: a sleep group and a sleep deprivation group. Now the sleep group, they're going to get a full eight hours of slumber, but the deprivation group, we're going to keep them awake in the laboratory, under full supervision. There's no naps or caffeine, by the way, so it's miserable for everyone involved. And then the next day, we're going to place those participants inside an MRI scanner and we're going to have them try and learn a whole list of new facts as we're taking snapshots of brain activity. And then we're going to test them to see how effective that learning has been. And that's what you're looking at here on the vertical axis. And when you put those two groups head to head, what you find is a quite significant, 40-percent deficit in the ability of the brain to make new memories without sleep. ? 03:13 I think this should be concerning, considering what we know is happening to sleep in our education populations right now. In fact, to put that in context, it would be the difference in a child acing an exam versus failing it miserably -- 40 percent. And we've gone on to discover what goes wrong within your brain to produce these types of learning disabilities. And there's a structure that sits on the left and the right side of your brain, called the hippocampus. And you can think of the hippocampus almost like the informational inbox of your brain. It's very good at receiving new memory files and then holding on to them. And when you look at this structure in those people who'd had a full night of sleep, we saw lots of healthy learning-related activity. Yet in those people who were sleep-deprived, we actually couldn't find any significant signal whatsoever. So it's almost as though sleep deprivation had shut down your memory inbox, and any new incoming files -- they were just being bounced. You couldn't effectively commit new experiences to memory. ? 04:30 So that's the bad that can happen if I were to take sleep away from you, but let me just come back to that control group for a second. Do you remember those folks that got a full eight hours of sleep? Well, we can ask a very different question: What is it about the physiological quality of your sleep when you do get it that restores and enhances your memory and learning ability each and every day? And by placing electrodes all over the head, what we've discovered is that there are big, powerful brainwaves that happen during the very deepest stages of sleep that have riding on top of them these spectacular bursts of electrical activity that we call sleep spindles. And it's the combined quality of these deep-sleep brainwaves that acts like a file-transfer mechanism at night, shifting memories from a short-term vulnerable reservoir to a more permanent long-term storage site within the brain, and therefore protecting them, making them safe. And it is important that we understand what during sleep actually transacts these memory benefits, because there are real medical and societal implications. ? 05:48 And let me just tell you about one area that we've moved this work out into, clinically, which is the context of aging and dementia. Because it's of course no secret that, as we get older, our learning and memory abilities begin to fade and decline. But what we've also discovered is that a physiological signature of aging is that your sleep gets worse, especially that deep quality of sleep that I was just discussing. And only last year, we finally published evidence that these two things, they're not simply co-occurring, they are significantly interrelated. And it suggests that the disruption of deep sleep is an underappreciated factor that is contributing to cognitive decline or memory decline in aging, and most recently we've discovered, in Alzheimer's disease as well. ? 06:48 Now, I know this is remarkably depressing news. It's in the mail. It's coming at you. But there's a potential silver lining here. Unlike many of the other factors that we know are associated with aging, for example changes in the physical structure of the brain, that's fiendishly difficult to treat. But that sleep is a missing piece in the explanatory puzzle of aging and Alzheimer's is exciting because we may be able to do something about it. ? 07:20 And one way that we are approaching this at my sleep center is not by using sleeping pills, by the way. Unfortunately, they are blunt instruments that do not produce naturalistic sleep. Instead, we're actually developing a method based on this. It's called direct current brain stimulation. You insert a small amount of voltage into the brain, so small you typically don't feel it, but it has a measurable impact. Now if you apply this stimulation during sleep in young, healthy adults, as if you're sort of singing in time with those deep-sleep brainwaves, not only can you amplify the size of those deep-sleep brainwaves, but in doing so, we can almost double the amount of memory benefit that you get from sleep. The question now is whether we can translate this same affordable, potentially portable piece of technology into older adults and those with dementia. Can we restore back some healthy quality of deep sleep, and in doing so, can we salvage aspects of their learning and memory function? That is my real hope now. That's one of our moon-shot goals, as it were. ? 08:41 So that's an example of sleep for your brain, but sleep is just as essential for your body. We've already spoken about sleep loss and your reproductive system. Or I could tell you about sleep loss and your cardiovascular system, and that all it takes is one hour. Because there is a global experiment performed on 1.6 billion people across 70 countries twice a year, and it's called daylight saving time. Now, in the spring, when we lose one hour of sleep, we see a subsequent 24-percent increase in heart attacks that following day. In the autumn, when we gain an hour of sleep, we see a 21-percent reduction in heart attacks. Isn't that incredible? And you see exactly the same profile for car crashes, road traffic accidents, even suicide rates. ? 09:48 But as a deeper dive, I want to focus on this: sleep loss and your immune system. And here, I'll introduce these delightful blue elements in the image. They are called natural killer cells, and you can think of natural killer cells almost like the secret service agents of your immune system. They are very good at identifying dangerous, unwanted elements and eliminating them. In fact, what they're doing here is destroying a cancerous tumor mass. So what you wish for is a virile set of these immune assassins at all times, and tragically, that's what you don't have if you're not sleeping enough. ? 10:35 So here in this experiment, you're not going to have your sleep deprived for an entire night, you're simply going to have your sleep restricted to four hours for one single night, and then we're going to look to see what's the percent reduction in immune cell activity that you suffer. And it's not small -- it's not 10 percent, it's not 20 percent. There was a 70-percent drop in natural killer cell activity. That's a concerning state of immune deficiency, and you can perhaps understand why we're now finding significant links between short sleep duration and your risk for the development of numerous forms of cancer. Currently, that list includes cancer of the bowel, cancer of the prostate and cancer of the breast. In fact, the link between a lack of sleep and cancer is now so strong that the World Health Organization has classified any form of nighttime shift work as a probable carcinogen, because of a disruption of your sleep-wake rhythms. ? 11:49 So you may have heard of that old maxim that you can sleep when you're dead. Well, I'm being quite serious now -- it is mortally unwise advice. We know this from epidemiological studies across millions of individuals. There's a simple truth: the shorter your sleep, the shorter your life. Short sleep predicts all-cause mortality. ? 12:16 And if increasing your risk for the development of cancer or even Alzheimer's disease were not sufficiently disquieting, we have since discovered that a lack of sleep will even erode the very fabric of biological life itself, your DNA genetic code. So here in this study, they took a group of healthy adults and they limited them to six hours of sleep a night for one week, and then they measured the change in their gene activity profile relative to when those same individuals were getting a full eight hours of sleep a night. And there were two critical findings. First, a sizable and significant 711 genes were distorted in their activity, caused by a lack of sleep. The second result was that about half of those genes were actually increased in their activity. The other half were decreased. ? 13:20 Now those genes that were switched off by a lack of sleep were genes associated with your immune system, so once again, you can see that immune deficiency. In contrast, those genes that were actually upregulated or increased by way of a lack of sleep, were genes associated with the promotion of tumors, genes associated with long-term chronic inflammation within the body, and genes associated with stress, and, as a consequence, cardiovascular disease. There is simply no aspect of your wellness that can retreat at the sign of sleep deprivation and get away unscathed. It's rather like a broken water pipe in your home. Sleep loss will leak down into every nook and cranny of your physiology, even tampering with the very DNA nucleic alphabet that spells out your daily health narrative. ? 14:21 And at this point, you may be thinking, "Oh my goodness, how do I start to get better sleep? What are you tips for good sleep?" Well, beyond avoiding the damaging and harmful impact of alcohol and caffeine on sleep, and if you're struggling with sleep at night, avoiding naps during the day, I have two pieces of advice for you. ? 14:45 The first is regularity. Go to bed at the same time, wake up at the same time, no matter whether it's the weekday or the weekend. Regularity is king, and it will anchor your sleep and improve the quantity and the quality of that sleep. The second is keep it cool. Your body needs to drop its core temperature by about two to three degrees Fahrenheit to initiate sleep and then to stay asleep, and it's the reason you will always find it easier to fall asleep in a room that's too cold than too hot. So aim for a bedroom temperature of around 65 degrees, or about 18 degrees Celsius. That's going to be optimal for the sleep of most people. ? 15:34 And then finally, in taking a step back, then, what is the mission-critical statement here? Well, I think it may be this: sleep, unfortunately, is not an optional lifestyle luxury. Sleep is a nonnegotiable biological necessity. It is your life-support system, and it is Mother Nature's best effort yet at immortality. And the decimation of sleep throughout industrialized nations is having a catastrophic impact on our health, our wellness, even the safety and the education of our children. It's a silent sleep loss epidemic, and it's fast becoming one of the greatest public health challenges that we face in the 21st century. ? 16:32 I believe it is now time for us to reclaim our right to a full night of sleep, and without embarrassment or that unfortunate stigma of laziness. And in doing so, we can be reunited with the most powerful elixir of life, the Swiss Army knife of health, as it were. ? 16:58 And with that soapbox rant over, I will simply say, good night, good luck, and above all ... I do hope you sleep well. ? 17:08 Thank you very much indeed. ? 17:10 (Applause) ? 17:14 Thank you. ? 17:15 (Applause) ? 17:18 Thank you so much. ? 17:20 David Biello: No, no, no. Stay there for a second. Good job not running away, though. I appreciate that. So that was terrifying. ? 17:26 Matt Walker: You're welcome. DB: Yes, thank you, thank you. Since we can't catch up on sleep, what are we supposed to do? What do we do when we're, like, tossing and turning in bed late at night or doing shift work or whatever else? ? 17:42 MW: So you're right, we can't catch up on sleep. Sleep is not like the bank. You can't accumulate a debt and then hope to pay it off at a later point in time. I should also note the reason that it's so catastrophic and that our health deteriorates so quickly, first, it's because human beings are the only species that deliberately deprive themselves of sleep for no apparent reason. ? 18:04 DB: Because we're smart. ? 18:05 MW: And I make that point because it means that Mother Nature, throughout the course of evolution, has never had to face the challenge of this thing called sleep deprivation. So she's never developed a safety net, and that's why when you undersleep, things just sort of implode so quickly, both within the brain and the body. So you just have to prioritize. ? 18:30 DB: OK, but tossing and turning in bed, what do I do? ? 18:34 MW: So if you are staying in bed awake for too long, you should get out of bed and go to a different room and do something different. The reason is because your brain will very quickly associate your bedroom with the place of wakefulness, and you need to break that association. So only return to bed when you are sleepy, and that way you will relearn the association that you once had, which is your bed is the place of sleep. So the analogy would be, you'd never sit at the dinner table, waiting to get hungry, so why would you lie in bed, waiting to get sleepy? ? 19:11 DB: Well, thank you for that wake-up call. Great job, Matt. ? 19:14 MW: You're very welcome. Thank you very much. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 19:43:42 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 14:43:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That second issue would be conservation. If I pick a second issue, it would be that. I would be a Green. Now I land in a second small party, and I still can scarcely tell the two majors apart. Can you? spike I am about as green as you can get. I have said that I don't read much political news. but when environmental regulations are eliminated or relaxed, I notice. And I have noticed a lot of that coming from the White House. So that's one big issue to me. I think we are really lucky: many have said and even I have noticed that Washington works better when it doesn't work at all - meaning gridlock. One house one party, the other, the other. What we have now. What would the administration have done if the House weren't Demo I shudder to think. Since the Repubs have been in power we can't know what the Demos would have done had they been in power. One thing really stands out to me as the meanest thing I have read: not letting Obama pick a Supreme Court justice. Now you can argue that the Demos would have done the same if the situation had been reversed, and of course you can't prove a negative, but the fact is that the Repubs did it and it is a thing of shame that I hope will surface again when the going gets hot in the Fall. bill w On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:43 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> [...]neither mainstream candidate even talked about the deficit. Too >> bad for the mainstream candidates. >> > > EXACTLY! It's the candidates' election to lose, NOT the voters'! One > vote does not matter. Statistics matter. Swaths of voters matter, and > their decisions are influenced by much higher forces. If a shitty > candidate loses, it's their fault. if Biden loses, it's his fault. The > game is convincing the voters. If you can't, you lose. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 12 22:16:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:16:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] US politics (was: Even India and Haiti do it better) In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 2:26 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> I'm not Spike, but, for me, the two major parties are more alike than > different:- neither wants to end wars* Everybody wants to end wars, or says they do, but to be meaningful we need to get specific. The Republicans started the Iraq War 17 years ago and they did so for a reason that turned out not to exist. Remember Iraq's weapons of mass destruction? > *- neither wants to drastically shrink the federal budget* > Yes, neither party is crazy enough to want to shrink the federal budget now during the current pandemic because that would bring on a depression much worse than any seen before in American history and cause a revolution which would destroy the constitution and be replaced by who knows what. Most revolutions do not end well. But the Republicans claim the deficit is an important issue and love to complain about it, but only when the Democrats are in power. Democrats don't publicly wail and wring their hands over it but they've run up a smaller debt than the Republicans have. > *- neither wants to end the drug war* > Unfortunately that is true, but at least one party wants to end the war against marijuana while the other party doesn't and has an Attorney General that says "*good people don't smoke marijuana*". > *> - neither wants to end unwarranted surveillance* > Both parties claim they want to end unwarranted surveillance but they disagree on what is warranted and what is unwarranted. One party claims that surveillance of hostile foreign nationals and their contacts that are colluding to interfere with our election is unwarranted because it benefits their party. The other party thinks such surveillance is warranted. > - neither wants to end civil asset forfeiture > That is indeed a bad practice, but compared with all the other evils we're facing right now that needs fixing that one needs to stand in line, and its small potatoes. > *> The areas where they differ are, to me, much less important.* > One party thought it was a good idea to hand over the keys to a Trident Nuclear Submarine to a ignorant imbecile who thinks he's a very stable genius and one party didn't. That seems pretty important to me. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 12 22:27:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 15:27:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] US politics (was: Even India and Haiti do it better) In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00fd01d628ac$9107c5e0$b31751a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > The areas where they differ are, to me, much less important. >?One party thought it was a good idea to hand over the keys to a Trident Nuclear Submarine to a ignorant imbecile who thinks he's a very stable genius and one party didn't. That seems pretty important to me. John K Clark Ja, that nuclear war we had in January 2017 was such a tragedy. Oh wait, never mind. John you should review some of the comments you wrote in 2016. They are hilarious in hindsight. By the way, what is your attitude toward handing the nuke subs to a guy who is clearly age-affected? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 12 22:55:09 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:55:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> You have long known my uneasiness with machine voting,* And Republicans blocked a 250 million dollar bill that would beefed up their security, they blocked it because if there is any hanky panky they know which side would benefit. The Democrats knowing its importance wanted to spend even more on election security but knew it was hopeless. > *but now with expanded use of mail-in ballots and ballot harvesting, > that problem gets worse.* I see no reason mail-in ballots couldn't be made as secure as a polling booth, or more so (they don't use voting machines) and if COVID-19 is raging in November it may be the only option we have. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Trump chose this moment to call the US Postal Service "a joke". > *What I see as a bigger threat: a seriously disputed election,* > I see a threat even if the results are not disputed by any serious person. *> We may not know who won the coming election. * > That is most certainly what Trump will say! If he wins he will say the election is phoney because he should have won by more just as he said in 2016. And if Trump loses the election there is not a doubt in my mind he will say the election is phoney, and I think there is a good chance he will flat out refuse to leave. Do you really think the Senate would even try to stop him? The new Trump refurbished Supreme Court? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 12 23:00:16 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 16:00:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Huh? What motivates stressed people is stress. The problem with many is that they don't have a lot of coping mechanisms and when those don't work, anything looks good to try. > But I do think that all this stress will, in the long run, be good for people. Bill you completely miss the point of this post and related EP posts I have made on Extropy Chat for the decade or two. You are making a level error here. I am _not_ talking about the effects of stress on isolated individuals. What I am talking about is that a population (tribe to nation) where a substantial fraction of the group sees a bleak future will (as a group) head down the path to war or related social disruptions. A severe economic collapse in Germany was causal to the rise of Hitler. A slow downturn of economic prospects in the Red states was causal to the election of Trump. There doesn't seem to be a point in explaining again how these psychological traits were selected in the stone age. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 12 23:18:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:18:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There doesn't seem to be a point in explaining again how these psychological traits were selected in the stone age. Keith You say that you refer to groups but then you talk about traits and do not say what traits you are talking about. Traits of humans as a species, or traits of the stressed out ones? And I don't care how they were selected. bill w On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 6:04 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > Huh? What motivates stressed people is stress. The problem with many is > that they don't have a lot of coping mechanisms and when those don't work, > anything looks good to try. > > > But I do think that all this stress will, in the long run, be good for > people. > > Bill you completely miss the point of this post and related EP posts I > have made on Extropy Chat for the decade or two. You are making a > level error here. > > I am _not_ talking about the effects of stress on isolated > individuals. What I am talking about is that a population (tribe to > nation) where a substantial fraction of the group sees a bleak future > will (as a group) head down the path to war or related social > disruptions. > > A severe economic collapse in Germany was causal to the rise of > Hitler. A slow downturn of economic prospects in the Red states was > causal to the election of Trump. > > There doesn't seem to be a point in explaining again how these > psychological traits were selected in the stone age. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed May 13 00:00:06 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 17:00:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:20 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There doesn't seem to be a point in explaining again how these > psychological traits were selected in the stone age. > > Keith > > You say that you refer to groups but then you talk about traits and do not > say what traits you are talking about. > Right before the bit you quoted, Keith said, " What I am talking about is that a population (tribe to nation) where a substantial fraction of the group sees a bleak future will (as a group) head down the path to war or related social disruptions." Thus, it is obvious that the traits Keith was talking about is the trait of "head(ing) down the path to war or related social disruptions" when "a substantial fraction of the group sees a bleak future". > Traits of humans as a species, or traits of the stressed out ones? > Neither all humans at once nor just individuals, but groups. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed May 13 00:16:18 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 00:16:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <663453849.137407.1589328978873@mail.yahoo.com> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020, 11:42:18 AM PDT, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:? On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > [...]neither mainstream candidate even talked about the deficit.? Too bad for the mainstream candidates. > EXACTLY!? It's the candidates' election to lose, NOT the voters'!? One vote does not matter.? Statistics matter.? Swaths of voters matter, and their decisions are influenced by much higher forces.? If a shitty candidate loses, it's their fault.? if Biden loses, it's his fault.? The game is convincing the voters.? If you can't, you lose. I agree. I invite John or anybody else to tell me why I should vote for Biden without mentioning Trump. As near as I can tell, Biden's biggest accomplishment thus far has been keeping America's first black President safe as Vice President for two terms in a very racist country with very well-armed racists. I mean nobody forced the Democrats to eliminate all their viable charismatic candidates. Running for POTUS on the platform of not being the incumbent POTUS is not a strategy that has historically proven very successful for either party. When neither Trump's supporters nor his enemies is capable of talking about anybody other than Trump, and Biden is mentally incapable of fending off Trump's Twitter attacks, then history shows he is very likely to win the next election. I am registered as a Democrat this year because I want Trump out of office but I am losing hope unless Biden can do something ANYTHING to get his name in the news. If his name can be mentioned in a positive light that is even better. But getting caught with a prostitute will a least show he is still virile. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 13 00:52:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 17:52:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <663453849.137407.1589328978873@mail.yahoo.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <663453849.137407.1589328978873@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <013f01d628c0$bd534070$37f9c150$@rainier66.com> >> On Behalf Of The Avantguardian via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better On Tuesday, May 12, 2020, 11:42:18 AM PDT, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > [...]neither mainstream candidate even talked about the deficit. Too bad for the mainstream candidates. >> EXACTLY! It's the candidates' election to lose, NOT the voters'! ... >...I agree. I invite John or anybody else to tell me why I should vote for Biden without mentioning Trump...Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Since both mainstream party candidates are unpopular, this is the year for third parties to shine. Ross Perot is no longer with us (RIP Ross, you were our last best hope) so I propose we draft Sal Khan. Drag him kicking and screaming out of Mountain View. He gets elected by a landslide, appoints Elon Musk as Secretary of Education, they switch jobs while keeping their titles. We need some thinking outside the box. spike From giulio at gmail.com Wed May 13 07:03:41 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:03:41 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Who is Enoch Root? Message-ID: Who is Enoch Root? Neal Stephenson?s ?Fall; or, Dodge in Hell? (2019) is a festival of ideas centered on mind uploading and simulated realities... https://turingchurch.net/who-is-enoch-root-11b9c157613c From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 13 10:04:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 06:04:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] US politics (was: Even India and Haiti do it better) In-Reply-To: <00fd01d628ac$9107c5e0$b31751a0$@rainier66.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <01a801d62882$1d82cfe0$58886fa0$@rainier66.com> <00fd01d628ac$9107c5e0$b31751a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 6:30 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John you should review some of the comments you wrote in 2016. They are > hilarious in hindsight.* We all need a good laugh during these grim times so please do so. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 13 10:14:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 06:14:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: <663453849.137407.1589328978873@mail.yahoo.com> References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <663453849.137407.1589328978873@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 8:18 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I invite John or anybody else to tell me why I should vote for Biden > without mentioning Trump.* And I invite you or anybody else to tell me what was wrong with the performance of the play "Our American Cousin" on April 14 1865 without mentioning the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 13 10:43:50 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 06:43:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election Message-ID: A lesser man would say "I told you so" but I'm far too noble and modest for that, so I won't. Trump's son in law does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 13 13:44:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 06:44:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who is Enoch Root? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004d01d6292c$9c39ecb0$d4adc610$@rainier66.com> >...Who is Enoch Root? A character in Cryptonomicon. spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 12:04 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Giulio Prisco Subject: [ExI] Who is Enoch Root? Neal Stephenson?s ?Fall; or, Dodge in Hell? (2019) is a festival of ideas centered on mind uploading and simulated realities... https://turingchurch.net/who-is-enoch-root-11b9c157613c _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed May 13 13:46:47 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:46:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <663453849.137407.1589328978873@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 6:16 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 8:18 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *I invite John or anybody else to tell me why I should vote for Biden >> without mentioning Trump.* > > > And I invite you or anybody else to tell me what was wrong with the > performance of the play "Our American Cousin" on April 14 1865 without > mentioning the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. > I'm sure this made sense in your head but I fail to see what the hell this means. I guess you are trying to say one should vote for Biden because Trump is so bad. What you fail to see is that there are people who aren't going to vote for Biden, and that's not their fault--it's BIDEN'S fault. He is losing voters by sucking, no matter what YOU think of Trump. It's a practical thing. If he loses, something made him a loser, and no matter how much you complain, that won't change. In fact, if you would blame those people, then using your logic, I blame YOU. You need to be doing more work to get the message out there, John. Save us, John K Clark, you're our only hope! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 13 13:48:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 06:48:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004e01d6292d$20d5adb0$62810910$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election A lesser man would say "I told you so" but I'm far too noble and modest for that, so I won't. Trump's son in law does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election John K Clark Trump?s son in law isn?t in charge of that, state governments are. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? Me too. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed May 13 13:51:44 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:51:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://youtu.be/0zXajYDnprQ On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 6:45 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A lesser man would say "I told you so" but I'm far too noble and modest > for that, so I won't. > > Trump's son in law does not rule out the possibility of delaying the > election > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed May 13 15:08:27 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 10:08:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] elon opens In-Reply-To: References: <01ef01d627f0$0a168290$1e4387b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have mixed feelings, but as long as proper action is taken if/when there are a cluster of cases at the factory, I think it?s probably for the best. On the other hand, I worry about the precedent for ignoring public health officials. What if we really do ?get the big one?? Based on the data, Covid deaths seem to be on the way out. While it?s tempting (for some) to want lockdowns to continue until cases hit 0, it?s simply not reasonable. I think we are far enough into a downward trend to reliably identify it as a trend and to slowly reopen. I?m happy to say that all of my doom-saying seems to have failed to come to pass. It feels good! SR Ballard > On May 11, 2020, at 8:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > There are no reasons a car factory must stay shut. bill w > > >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:58 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >> I have no dog in the fight, and frequently think Musk is guilty of being the biggest carnival barker since P.T. Barnum but I can't help but like his boldness and SpaceX in particular. >> >> Anyways, I have been following this as well, and fully support him reopening the factory against orders, just like I supported the brave woman in Texas who reopened her salon. >> >> https://youtu.be/0zXajYDnprQ >> >>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> California governor declared that manufacturing could re-open, but the Alameda county authority said no. Elon Musk said he was opening anyway. Did it: >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.ktvu.com/news/parking-lot-appears-full-at-tesla-after-ceo-elon-musk-sues-over-shelter-in-place >>> >>> >>> >>> No one was arrested. After a trade of insults, Musk threatened to take his HQ to another state. The governor and the mayor of Palo Alto are imploring Alameda county authorities to stand down forthwith. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am cheering for Musk: that Fremont factory is a 6 minute dreamy counterflow commute from here. That factory has sent our local school?s average test scores and real estate values thru the roof, which causes the locals to love the guy with all our hearts, even if it is for selfish reasons. >>> >>> >>> >>> I disqualify my own attitude, because I directly benefit from that factory, and several of my neighbors drive Teslas, which lowers my power costs (explanation available on request.) Those who do not have any direct benefit from Musk?s actions or the restrictions, I would be interested to hear your comments on his re-opening the factory against county orders. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed May 13 15:26:48 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 17:26:48 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Who is Enoch Root? In-Reply-To: <004d01d6292c$9c39ecb0$d4adc610$@rainier66.com> References: <004d01d6292c$9c39ecb0$d4adc610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Plus 4 other books, the 3 Baroque Cycle books and Fall. In Fall, the mystery of Enoch is explained, or better hinted at. On 2020. May 13., Wed at 15:46, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >...Who is Enoch Root? > > A character in Cryptonomicon. > > spike > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 12:04 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: Giulio Prisco > Subject: [ExI] Who is Enoch Root? > > > Neal Stephenson?s ?Fall; or, Dodge in Hell? (2019) is a festival of ideas > centered on mind uploading and simulated realities... > > https://turingchurch.net/who-is-enoch-root-11b9c157613c > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 13 15:31:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:31:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election In-Reply-To: <004e01d6292d$20d5adb0$62810910$@rainier66.com> References: <004e01d6292d$20d5adb0$62810910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:08 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> A lesser man would say "I told you so" but I'm far too noble and modest >> for that, so I won't. >> >> Trump's son in law does not rule out the possibility of delaying the >> election >> > > > > > *> Trump?s son in law isn?t in charge of that, state governments are. * > > * Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? * > That election date is set by the US Constitution not by state constitutions. And Spike, I know you're not concerned because you believe violating the US Constitution is as impossible as violating the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, but those of us that still remain on planet earth think that maybe just maybe that might not be entirely true. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 13 15:40:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:40:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01d62485$f1e16860$d5a43920$@rainier66.com> <00b101d627bd$37ded160$a79c7420$@rainier66.com> <014501d627dc$f8444380$e8ccca80$@rainier66.com> <016e01d6287a$94a4ae70$bdee0b50$@rainier66.com> <663453849.137407.1589328978873@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 9:58 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> *I invite John or anybody else to tell me why I should vote for Biden >>> without mentioning Trump.* >> >> >> >>And I invite you or anybody else to tell me what was wrong with the >> performance of the play "Our American Cousin" on April 14 1865 without >> mentioning the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. >> > > *>I'm sure this made sense in your head but I fail to see what the hell > this means. I guess you are trying to say one should vote for Biden > because Trump is so bad.* > Give that man a cigar! I don't care what everybody says you're smart as hell. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 13 15:56:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 08:56:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: <004e01d6292d$20d5adb0$62810910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008001d6293f$0ade2f20$209a8d60$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Subject: Re: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:08 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Trump?s son in law isn?t in charge of that, state governments are. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? >?That election date is set by the US Constitution not by state constitutions. And Spike, I know you're not concerned because you believe violating the US Constitution is as impossible as violating the Second Law Of Thermodynamics, but those of us that still remain on planet earth think that maybe just maybe that might not be entirely true. John K Clark John, you may recall the Supreme Court case of 2000. The Florida ballot was disputed, and Florida was the tipping point state. The one feller whose name I cannot recall beat the other feller whose name I cannot recall by a razor thin margin, there were irregularities in the way the votes were counted by the county officials (the dented chads and hanging chads debtes) and so on, so the case ended up in the SCOTUS. The SCOTUS didn?t argue over who won the election that state, but rather whether that state?s delegates would be allowed to come to the EC. If they were excluded, the one feller would win, otherwise, the other. One of the possibilities: split them, award 12 to each. Had they done that, the outcome would have gone the other way. The decision eventually came down that the SCOTUS did not have sufficient justification to disqualify the election nor sufficient authority to force the state to split their vote (which was the functional equivalent of disqualifying the election.) So? they admitted those 25 votes and that was that. The whole misadventure was a great civics lesson: it warmed my heart to hear the SCOTUS keep reminding us that its authority was only that which the constitution allowed. All they could do was what was authorized in the document which gave them the legal authority to start with. I didn?t care which of those two won that election, for I didn?t vote for either of them, but I am a big fan of Supreme Court justices saying that the states control elections and the SCOTUS would swear in whoever the Electoral College said was the winner. I will note the risk of a disputed election is increased by the kinds of things California is doing, and the consequences are higher. Remind us please why gun shops should be closed as non-essential businesses? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed May 13 15:58:39 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 17:58:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keith: Right, ?a population where a substantial fraction of the group sees a bleak future will (as a group) head down the path to war or related social disruptions.? Therefore, the most important thing that we can do is to promote radiant, energizing visions of beautiful possible futures. On 2020. May 13., Wed at 1:04, Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > Huh? What motivates stressed people is stress. The problem with many is > that they don't have a lot of coping mechanisms and when those don't work, > anything looks good to try. > > > But I do think that all this stress will, in the long run, be good for > people. > > Bill you completely miss the point of this post and related EP posts I > have made on Extropy Chat for the decade or two. You are making a > level error here. > > I am _not_ talking about the effects of stress on isolated > individuals. What I am talking about is that a population (tribe to > nation) where a substantial fraction of the group sees a bleak future > will (as a group) head down the path to war or related social > disruptions. > > A severe economic collapse in Germany was causal to the rise of > Hitler. A slow downturn of economic prospects in the Red states was > causal to the election of Trump. > > There doesn't seem to be a point in explaining again how these > psychological traits were selected in the stone age. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 13 16:35:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:35:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Vaccines Message-ID: The average vaccine takes 10.7 years to go from an idea to something the average person can get, the fastest one was the Ebola vaccine and it took 5 years. That's way too slow. It takes such a long time because before clinical trials start an experimental vaccine only has a 6% chance of ever reaching the market; even if it gets to the clinical trials stage there is only a 33% chance of success. But a COVID-19 vaccine is so important we can't proceed with doing business the usual way, we need a massive Manhattan Project style effort. About 100 different vaccines are some stage of development and at least half of them should be aggressively pursued in parallel. And we should definitely use human challenge trials, some will say that's immoral but I think the moral path is the one that produces the least sickness and death. There is also the problem of scaling up, even after a good Vaccine is found we need to make enough for 7.6 billion people. Bill Gates has picked 7 vaccines that he thinks are most promising and is spending several billion dollars to make 7 factories to mass produce them with the full knowledge that most of the factories will be unused and most of the money will end up being wasted because he is willing to trade money for time because every day you save in finding a vaccine you save thousands of lives. But it's not enough, we need at least 50 factories, if 49 are never used that's OK, it would be money well spent as far as I'm concerned. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 13 16:47:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:47:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election In-Reply-To: <008001d6293f$0ade2f20$209a8d60$@rainier66.com> References: <004e01d6292d$20d5adb0$62810910$@rainier66.com> <008001d6293f$0ade2f20$209a8d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Remind us please why gun shops should be closed as non-essential businesses? spike "*Hey! You gotta open up. It is essential that I have a gun. I have a bank to rob." When more people are at home I 'd say that the need for guns is less than usual. bill w* On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On * > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of > delaying the election > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:08 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *> **Trump?s son in law isn?t in charge of that, state governments are. * > > * Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? * > > > > >?That election date is set by the US Constitution not by state > constitutions. And Spike, I know you're not concerned because you believe > violating the US Constitution is as impossible as violating the Second Law > Of Thermodynamics, but those of us that still remain on planet earth think > that maybe just maybe that might not be entirely true. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > John, you may recall the Supreme Court case of 2000. The Florida ballot > was disputed, and Florida was the tipping point state. > > > > The one feller whose name I cannot recall beat the other feller whose name > I cannot recall by a razor thin margin, there were irregularities in the > way the votes were counted by the county officials (the dented chads and > hanging chads debtes) and so on, so the case ended up in the SCOTUS. > > > > The SCOTUS didn?t argue over who won the election that state, but rather > whether that state?s delegates would be allowed to come to the EC. If they > were excluded, the one feller would win, otherwise, the other. One of the > possibilities: split them, award 12 to each. Had they done that, the > outcome would have gone the other way. > > > > The decision eventually came down that the SCOTUS did not have sufficient > justification to disqualify the election nor sufficient authority to force > the state to split their vote (which was the functional equivalent of > disqualifying the election.) So? they admitted those 25 votes and that was > that. > > > > The whole misadventure was a great civics lesson: it warmed my heart to > hear the SCOTUS keep reminding us that its authority was only that which > the constitution allowed. All they could do was what was authorized in the > document which gave them the legal authority to start with. > > > > I didn?t care which of those two won that election, for I didn?t vote for > either of them, but I am a big fan of Supreme Court justices saying that > the states control elections and the SCOTUS would swear in whoever the > Electoral College said was the winner. > > > > I will note the risk of a disputed election is increased by the kinds of > things California is doing, and the consequences are higher. Remind us > please why gun shops should be closed as non-essential businesses? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 13 16:50:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:50:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: giulio wrote: Therefore, the most important thing that we can do is to promote radiant, energizing visions of beautiful possible futures. That's the role of religions is it not? And political candidates. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 13 16:54:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:54:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the fun they had Message-ID: <00cd01d62947$204d4500$60e7cf00$@rainier66.com> There was a short story I read when I was about 10. It was in a school textbook. Of all the material in all those textbooks, this short story was the only thing that stuck in my mind. I recall it fit entirely on one textbook page. I even remembered enough of the exact wording to find it online. In light of the current remote education experiment, I found that story remarkable indeed: http://teleclass.free.fr/IMG/pdf/The_Fun_They_Had_by_Isaac_Asimov.pdf Keith did you get a chance to hang around with Asimov enough to know him personally? I know you ran with the biggies in SciFi. I will never forget that time you invited me over for one of your parties. That was just cool. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed May 13 17:01:50 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 19:01:50 +0200 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And philosophers, science fiction writers, people like us... On 2020. May 13., Wed at 18:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > giulio wrote: Therefore, the most important thing that we can do is to > promote radiant, energizing visions of beautiful possible futures. > > That's the role of religions is it not? And political candidates. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 13 17:20:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:20:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] drugs and diagnosis Message-ID: When I was a young libertarian I thought that all people should be able to take any drug they wanted to. The older I got the more I realized what tremendous damage that would create. Now I support prescription drugs. Now another issue comes up: I read about a 'lab on a chip' technology, which promises to be able to diagnose many diseases. Physicians probably will be against this. They are against self-medication and probably will be against any reliable and valid diagnostic tests. Do we have rights here? A right to know what our body is doing and maybe get us to the physician before real trouble begins? A libertarian has to say yes. The physicians will argue that self-diagnosis will lead to more self-medication and not necessarily more physician visits. And that's probably true. But where does this end? People doing their own chemotherapy? And that many patients will not be aware of errors, such as false positives. (I read that the virus test with 90% accuracy will have 70% false positives because of the rarity of the disease - Bayes Theorem). I probably have missed some points, here, so supply them at will. bill w ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 13 17:29:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:29:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dunno about writers. My daughter likes dystopian novels. She said that she is uplifted by the success that was accomplished at the end, when they survived. It is true that every sci-fi book I ever read had a happy endings for most of the favorite characters. What with the antiscience feelings that seem popular, whoever is doing utopian stuff is not getting through to most people. I can sit here in my recliner and look at every single thing in the room and not find one, not one thing, that has not been created or affected by science, and most people just don't notice, and take all of it for granted. bill w On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:13 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And philosophers, science fiction writers, people like us... > > On 2020. May 13., Wed at 18:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> giulio wrote: Therefore, the most important thing that we can do is to >> promote radiant, energizing visions of beautiful possible futures. >> >> That's the role of religions is it not? And political candidates. bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed May 13 17:34:04 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 10:34:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election In-Reply-To: <008001d6293f$0ade2f20$209a8d60$@rainier66.com> References: <004e01d6292d$20d5adb0$62810910$@rainier66.com> <008001d6293f$0ade2f20$209a8d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I will note the risk of a disputed election is increased by the kinds of > things California is doing, and the consequences are higher. Remind us > please why gun shops should be closed as non-essential businesses? > How do gun shops being open or not result in a disputed election? They might affect the results of a disputed election, but I don't see how they put an election into dispute, People shouldn't be bringing guns to polling places - and the increased push for voting by mail would make that less of an issue anyway. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed May 13 17:35:45 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:35:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] drugs and diagnosis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, as with most things, there's a history here. Medicine in america /was/ pretty unregulated. Then in 1932 a major national sports celebrity, Eben Byers, died from spending 5 years of chugging so much radium water his skeleton started dissolving. He died of, basically, cancer-of-the-everything. The federal government, which was already in a flexing-it's-muscles expansive kind of mood, used the incident to build the foundations of our modern medical regulatory state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Byers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radithor On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:23 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > When I was a young libertarian I thought that all people should be able to > take any drug they wanted to. The older I got the more I realized what > tremendous damage that would create. Now I support prescription drugs. > > Now another issue comes up: I read about a 'lab on a chip' technology, > which promises to be able to diagnose many diseases. Physicians probably > will be against this. They are against self-medication and probably will > be against any reliable and valid diagnostic tests. > > Do we have rights here? A right to know what our body is doing and maybe > get us to the physician before real trouble begins? A libertarian has to > say yes. The physicians will argue that self-diagnosis will lead to more > self-medication and not necessarily more physician visits. And that's > probably true. But where does this end? People doing their own > chemotherapy? And that many patients will not be aware of errors, such as > false positives. (I read that the virus test with 90% accuracy will have > 70% false positives because of the rarity of the disease - Bayes Theorem). > > I probably have missed some points, here, so supply them at will. > > bill w > > ? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 13 17:40:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 10:40:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012e01d6294d$a41c7f80$ec557e80$@rainier66.com> Utopian SciFi is rare. Star Trek is almost that. My favorite was K Eric Drexler?s Engines of Creation, even though that wasn?t SciFi, but speculative science. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 10:30 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better I dunno about writers. My daughter likes dystopian novels. She said that she is uplifted by the success that was accomplished at the end, when they survived. It is true that every sci-fi book I ever read had a happy endings for most of the favorite characters. What with the antiscience feelings that seem popular, whoever is doing utopian stuff is not getting through to most people. I can sit here in my recliner and look at every single thing in the room and not find one, not one thing, that has not been created or affected by science, and most people just don't notice, and take all of it for granted. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 13 17:42:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 10:42:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: <004e01d6292d$20d5adb0$62810910$@rainier66.com> <008001d6293f$0ade2f20$209a8d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013501d6294d$f10bc7b0$d3235710$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 10:34 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] White House does not rule out the possibility of delaying the election On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: I will note the risk of a disputed election is increased by the kinds of things California is doing, and the consequences are higher. Remind us please why gun shops should be closed as non-essential businesses? How do gun shops being open or not result in a disputed election? They might affect the results of a disputed election, but I don't see how they put an election into dispute, People shouldn't be bringing guns to polling places - and the increased push for voting by mail would make that less of an issue anyway. Hi Adrian, no worries, clarification: owning guns gives people a sense of security, which reduces the risk to society. Having a stockpile of food (and TP) gives people a sense of security. A disputed election is something that creates a sense of insecurity, so we benefit from these other factors. So? even if you are pacifist, stockpile some food (and TP.) That was easy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 13 18:29:06 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 13:29:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] science book Message-ID: In a followup to Stuff Matters, a book on solid things, author Mark Miodownik has written Liquid Rules, a book I just finished and is just as good as the former book. Highly recommended. I learned about superfluids - helium at -457 which can flow through solid matter, and liquid computers. \\bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 13 19:29:04 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 15:29:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the fun they had In-Reply-To: <00cd01d62947$204d4500$60e7cf00$@rainier66.com> References: <00cd01d62947$204d4500$60e7cf00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> There was a short story I read when I was about 10. It was in a school > textbook. Of all the material in all those textbooks, this short story was > the only thing that stuck in my mind. I recall it fit entirely on one > textbook page. I even remembered enough of the exact wording to find it > online.* > > *In light of the current remote education experiment, I found that story > remarkable indeed:* > > > > http://teleclass.free.fr/IMG/pdf/The_Fun_They_Had_by_Isaac_Asimov.pdf > I don't remember reading that but I do remember reading another Asimov story as a kid called "The Feeling Of Power", it's about the top secret rediscovery of arithmetic: The Feeling Of Power John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed May 13 23:17:23 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 23:17:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Vaccines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <109471575.531726.1589411843939@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 09:36:36 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? > The average vaccine takes 10.7 years to go from an idea to something the average person can get, the fastest one was the Ebola vaccine and it took 5 years. That's way too slow. It takes such a long time because before clinical trials start an experimental vaccine only has a 6% chance of ever reaching the market; even if it?gets to the clinical trials stage there is only a 33% chance of success. But a COVID-19 vaccine is so important we can't proceed with doing business the usual way, we need a massive Manhattan Project style effort. About 100 different vaccines are some stage of development and at least half of them should be aggressively pursued in parallel. And we should definitely use human challenge trials, some will say that's immoral but I think the moral path is the one that produces the least sickness and death. ------------------------------ While I applaud all the investment in vaccine R&D, it is a risky one because there is a chance the pandemic will be over with by the time any vaccine enters production. While the four endemic human coronaviruses that cause colds seem to generate antibody responses that only last 2-3 years, antibody responses to SARS and MERS, which are more closely related to SARS-CoV-2 generate long-lasting antibody responses. So there is a good chance that long lasting herd immunity kicks in before vaccine manufacturers would be able to recoup their investment. Of course any new technology developed would hopefully be useful against the NEXT emergent coronavirus. Which seems like a likely proposition. https://judithcurry.com/2020/05/10/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/?fbclid=IwAR23hi4LXgeVUmq9v1na4_FwCYegxAboBCUiZV6eTroGgPK64XeakNG2Qfs ------------------------------- > There is also the problem of scaling up, even after a good Vaccine is found we need to make enough for 7.6 billion people. Bill Gates has picked 7 vaccines that he thinks are most promising and is spending several billion dollars to make 7 factories to mass produce them with the full knowledge that most of the factories will be unused and most of the money will end up being wasted because he is willing to trade money for time because every day you save in finding a vaccine you save thousands of lives.? But it's not enough, we need at least 50 factories, if 49 are never used that's OK, it would be money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Is anybody else a little creeped out by the fact that Bill Gates and Johns Hopkins hosted what amounts to a rehearsal of the pandemic called Event 201 just over a year earlier? https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/ On their website they issued a statement that the pandemic was not quite as deadly as the one they practiced for.?So yeah I hope the naming of COVID-19 was not an homage to Windows-98. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 14 03:53:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 20:53:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] biggest winners in the shutdown Message-ID: <004701d629a3$458c77d0$d0a56770$@rainier66.com> As the nation (and the world) begins re-opening shops and businesses, I began wondering today who would be the least happy about it. Who were the biggest winners during the shutdown? First I thought of the constabulary: cops must have had it much easier with traffic way down. But they don't actually make more money, just have an easier job. TP manufacturers? Not really. There was an oddball surge in demand, but it is only a temporary: sanity returns, in the long run the proles aren't actually using more of it, just stockpiling. In the long run, they may lose, because people might be using the stuff a little more carefully. Then it occurred to me: car insurance companies. With traffic waaaaay the heck down, their costs would be way down too. If some of their customers cannot pay, they cancel the policies: no ethics rules would suggest they should continue coverage on people who didn't pay their premiums. Insurance is a betting game: in a sense we bet we will have an accident, they are betting we will not, so if we have an accident, we win that bet (hell of a bet to win, ja?) If you don't put your chips on the table, you cannot win. So... their revenue would be down some, but their payouts would be down more. So they win during the shutdown. Anyone other big winners during the shutdown? spike From atymes at gmail.com Thu May 14 04:34:23 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 21:34:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] biggest winners in the shutdown In-Reply-To: <004701d629a3$458c77d0$d0a56770$@rainier66.com> References: <004701d629a3$458c77d0$d0a56770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Anyone other big winners during the shutdown? > PPE - including hand sanitizer - manufacturers. Sure, there are a bunch more people getting in on the game now, but any company that was already in the industry when this started (and avoided getting shut down themselves, largely through being declared essential industries) has been making bank. Even as the shutdown lifts, there will probably be continued high demand for a while. That said, shifting to PPE manufacture is an easy win if you're in another depressed industry and you've got compatible equipment. Have a distillery? Make hand sanitizer. Have nearly any kind of high volume plastics manufacture? Make masks. And if you've got the medical chops to shift over to making ventilators, the US federal government (not to mention several states) would like to reward (as in pay) you to do that if you're not doing some other essential service. Seriously. If you're out of work but would be able to contribute to something like this? Short term gold mine over here. (Though it's not trivial. The effort I'm part of is trying to get to high volume manufacture before we can tap into the market. If anyone's got underutilized injection molding or other mass plastics manufacture machinery and is looking to get in on this, please contact me offlist this week.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu May 14 05:15:25 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 22:15:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: Giulio Prisco wrote >> Keith: Right, ?a population where a substantial fraction of the group sees a bleak future will (as a group) head down the path to war or related social disruptions.? > Therefore, the most important thing that we can do is to promote radiant, energizing visions of beautiful possible futures. I am not sure a vision will do the job. But a real improvement in income per capita seems to work. We have the recent example of the IRA going out of business. Rather than given the Brits credit, I think credit should go to the Irish women who cul the birth rate from high to the European level of replacement. After a suitable lag, economic growth got ahead of population growth, and the income per capita improved. With brighter prospects for the future, population support for the IRA faded out. If you want something to blame for the long term problems in the Red states, consider the humble shipping container. Reducing the cost of shipping made off-shoring short-term profitable. Long term it hollowed out the companies. This has only become obvious with the recent crisis. The companies no longer have production engineers and can't bring production back. Even if they could, automation has eliminated most of the jobs. The population growth of the US is already below replacement. I don't have a suggestion as to how to reduce the malaise in the Red states. Reducing the population growth in the Arab states is an even more difficult problem. It would have to come from inside. William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> Giulio wrote: Therefore, the most important thing that we can do is to promote radiant, energizing visions of beautiful possible futures. > That's the role of religions is it not? And political candidates. No. Religions are part of the war process. Political candidates seldom propose anything useful. Improving the world is the function of scientists and engineers. Keith From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu May 14 05:27:06 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 05:27:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] biggest winners in the shutdown References: <1919863015.614430.1589434026383.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1919863015.614430.1589434026383@mail.yahoo.com> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 08:54:29 PM PDT, spike jones via extropy-chat <= extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:=20 > As the nation (and the world) begins re-opening shops and businesses, I b= egan wondering today who would be the least happy about it.=C2=A0 Who were = the biggest winners during the shutdown? [snip] > Insurance is a betting game: in a sense we bet we will have an accident, = they are betting we will not, so if we have an accident, we win that bet (h= ell of a bet to win, ja?)=C2=A0 If you don't put your chips on the table, y= ou cannot win.=C2=A0 So... their revenue would be down some, but their payo= uts would be down more.=C2=A0 So they win during the shutdown. >Anyone other big winners during the shutdown? ------------------------------------ I might have simply overlooked it previously, but it seems that Zoom.com we= nt from a relatively obscure website / software to being one of the most po= pular in the world practically overnight. How they handled that huge upsurg= e in traffic without crashing is actually kind of impressive. I think Micro= soft Teams is another killer app for those working or schooling from home d= uring the pandemic. I imagine Amazon's quarterly earnings report will be pr= etty good. Online media streaming services like Netflix and such are probab= ly busier than ever. Lots of biotech companies and commercial medical labs are probably=C2=A0 bu= sier than ever with all the demand for diagnostic testing. If there is any = credence to the lipstick effect, then I imagine cosmetic companies and othe= r purveyors of low cost luxury goods are probably surging right now. Ditto = fitness gear like running shoes and the like. I know I am missing a lot but that is all I can think of for now. Stuart LaForge From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu May 14 05:28:46 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 22:28:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the fun they had Message-ID: wrote: snip > Keith did you get a chance to hang around with Asimov enough to know him personally? No. Even though he was on the board of L5 Society for years, I never met him. He did not travel much and I didn't get to NYC during that time. > I know you ran with the biggies in SciFi. I will never forget that time you invited me over for one of your parties. That was just cool. Heinlein was on the L5 Board and took an active part. Drexler and I both tried to get him to sign up for cryonics, after all, he wrote _Door into Summer_, but Virginia opposed it. The party with the most SF authors was the party for Spider Robinson. Poul Anderson showed up for that one. I wrote about that one and the clouds of smoke recently. Keith From giulio at gmail.com Thu May 14 06:57:29 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 08:57:29 +0200 Subject: [ExI] the fun they had In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Drexler and I both tried to get him to sign up for cryonics" - I heard from Greg Benford that Heinlein considered signing up but then decided not to because he thought cryonics could interfere with a naturally occurring afterlife or something like that. Is that so? (or plausible?) On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 7:34 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > wrote: > > snip > > > Keith did you get a chance to hang around with Asimov enough to know him > personally? > > No. Even though he was on the board of L5 Society for years, I never > met him. He did not travel much and I didn't get to NYC during that > time. > > > I know you ran with the biggies in SciFi. I will never forget > that time you invited me over for one of your parties. That was just cool. > > Heinlein was on the L5 Board and took an active part. Drexler and I > both tried to get him to sign up for cryonics, after all, he wrote > _Door into Summer_, but Virginia opposed it. > > The party with the most SF authors was the party for Spider Robinson. > Poul Anderson showed up for that one. I wrote about that one and the > clouds of smoke recently. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 14 12:07:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 05:07:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] biggest winners in the shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <004701d629a3$458c77d0$d0a56770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002401d629e8$3433cd90$9c9b68b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 9:34 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] biggest winners in the shutdown On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Anyone other big winners during the shutdown? PPE - including hand sanitizer - manufacturers? >?Seriously. If you're out of work but would be able to contribute to something like this? Short term gold mine over here. (Though it's not trivial. The effort I'm part of is trying to get to high volume manufacture before we can tap into the market. If anyone's got underutilized injection molding or other mass plastics manufacture machinery and is looking to get in on this, please contact me offlist this week.) Adrian, your post made my day, and it is only a bit past 0500. The spirit of the noble American entrepreneur is not dead. Find a need, fill it, make a ton of money, everyone wins, even the poor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 14 12:40:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 08:40:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Vaccines In-Reply-To: <109471575.531726.1589411843939@mail.yahoo.com> References: <109471575.531726.1589411843939@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 7:20 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> **there is a good chance that long lasting herd immunity kicks in before > vaccine manufacturers would be able to recoup their investment.* And there is also a good chance several million Americans would have to die before herd immunity kicks in. I have a prediction, after Trump urges people to forget about the virus and go back to business as usual and then when the number of deaths start to jump back up in the fall Trump will say the death numbers provided by his own health department are fake numbers cooked up by liberal Democrats, Obama, and the deep state. And the Republicans will either believe him or they won't care that he's lying to them just as they have with every other idiotic thing that has come out of his mouth, because that's what you do when you're in a cult. But reality always gets the last laugh. Always. *> before vaccine manufacturers would be able to recoup their investment.* In the past vaccine's have not been big money makers for drug companies because in most cases if you take one dose you're good for life, but for something like blood pressure medication you have to take a dose every day. So if the free market breaks down and is unable to develop a COVID-19 vaccine then it's time for government to step in with a massive vaccine project of their own on a scale similar to the Manhattan project or the Apollo moon landing. I mean, if the government can't do something like this then what's the point of having a government at all? Yes I know, anarchist would say government has no use, and maybe they have a point, but the next 6 months are critical and would not be a good time for such a radical transition. * > Is anybody else a little creeped out by the fact that Bill Gates and > Johns Hopkins hosted what amounts to a rehearsal of the pandemic called > Event 201 just over a year earlier?* Creeped out? *WHAT THE HELL*?! Why in the world should anybody be creeped out by practicing the response to a disaster that virtually every epidemiologist in existence knew would happen someday so that we'd get good at it? If the current administration had taken Bill Gates seriously or conducted their own rehearsal in 2017 when they first gained power tens of thousands of Americans who are now dead would be alive today. But instead Trump was caught completely by surprise and the only weapon he knew how to wield against the virus was magical thinking and the hot air coming out of his pie hole. * > On their website they issued a statement that the pandemic was not > quite as deadly as the one they practiced for. So yeah I hope the naming of > COVID-19 was not an homage to Windows-98.* Bill Gates has saved well over 100 million lives and, although he would never need to say so himself because it's so obviously true, he really is a very stable genius. America picked the wrong billionaire in 2016. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 14 12:59:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 08:59:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] biggest winners in the shutdown In-Reply-To: <004701d629a3$458c77d0$d0a56770$@rainier66.com> References: <004701d629a3$458c77d0$d0a56770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Anyone other big winners during the shutdown?* Both the virus and the shutdown provides lots of juicy red meat for conspiracy theories, just as every large world event does. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 14 16:20:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 09:20:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reciprocal transparency Message-ID: <00ac01d62a0b$a6f6d750$f4e485f0$@rainier66.com> The huge bombshell news story yesterday was the declassification of a list of names of government officials who requested unmasking of American citizens (in this case General Michael Flynn) from CIA phone intercepts. This one is controversial, because it is an end-run around our 4th amendment. It requires a court warrant to listen in on a phone conversation, but cell phones are radios, so intercepting those signals is something that can be done by anyone who knows how. The legality of intercepting cell phone calls is still being debated all these years later. When Julian Assange was hanging out here in the late 1990s, his argument was that transparency should be a two-way street. Cell phones were already becoming nearly universal in those days. Julian realized the government could intercept the calls. He believed that the identities of government officials who had access to that information should be public domain information. They can see us, so we should be able to see them. Reciprocal transparency prevents rampant corruption to exist in secrecy. That didn?t happen. Government officials could request ?unmasking? which is declassification of the identity of an American citizen on either end of the call, while the requesting official?s identity would remain classified. Yesterday the head of National Intelligence carried out what Assange wanted over 20 years ago and declassified a list of 39 US government officials who requested unmasking of General Michael Flynn (who is that?) The names are obscure, I don?t think I have heard of of them, but one name I definitely heard of, and that name is Ambassador Bass. What a shock to see Ambassador Bass right there on the last page of that list. I didn?t even realize Ernest T. Bass was still with us. But there he is, a shining star on that list of obscure names: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrLMXY_9TA Julian Assange, there you go man: reciprocal transparency. We come to find out what Ernest T. Bass is doing these days: he?s the US Ambassador to Turkey. Why would Ernest T. care anything about this obscure General Flynn? The world may never know. Long live reciprocal transparency. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20439 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu May 14 17:59:05 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 10:59:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Ex] Hitler and Trump was Even India and Haiti do it better Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace wrote: Snip > You say that you refer to groups but then you talk about traits and do not say what traits you are talking about. I have talked about these traits here for more than a decade. Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:03:23 -0700 From: hkhenson To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [ExI] Human evolution model (was Iranian riots) Message-ID: <1247501536_13499 at s7.cableone.net>700 Stone age people facing a resource crisis start bad mouthing (xenophobic memes) the tribe they will eventually try to destroy. Eventually, the circulating memes get the warriors worked up to a do or die attack on the neighbors. The key here is that recognition of an impending resource crisis trips a behavioral psychological switch > Traits of humans as a species, or traits of the stressed out ones? Both of course. And what makes humans groups switch from normal into war mode. This is a human innovation. Chimps are in war mode all the time. See Jane Goodall. > And I don't care how they were selected. If you don't want to know, there is little point in talking about this subject to you. I doubt you have the background for this anyway. For example, unless you clearly understand Hamiltion's Rule, you can't understand the evolutionary model of how these traits were selected.. Keith PS. I think most of the people on this list have read https://www.academia.edu/777381/Evolutionary_psychology_memes_and_the_origin_of_war It's from 2006 but is still being downloaded from all over the world about once a week. I put up a rough math model extension of that paper in the 2009 posting above. From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 14 18:08:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 11:08:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new sport Message-ID: <00e101d62a1a$a66d3720$f347a560$@rainier66.com> The problem with mainstream sports is that it gets too boring: the competitors all look alike and play alike after a while. Note international level mile runners: all have an optimal body style, long and lean, all alike, so boring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOlw80g8A4g Oh wait, wrong video. That one looks less boring. Here we go, all optimal nearly so, long, lean, running styles so similar you can?t tell one from another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do3G-AEvJfY OK so the beer mile was just for fun, but hell, games are supposed to be fun. This gave me an idea. We know championship bowling is a good example of the best players converge on a particular style. Up at the top level, they get strikes most of the time, snooze, but what if? instead of having ten pins with four in the back, we used all standard spacing, standard ball, standard pins, with 55 pins, 10 in the back row? Would that be a kick or what? We could bring in top level bowlers who are good enough to aim their ball to hit within about a cm or two of the sweet spot on the 1 pin. We could get them to come by having the spectators bet on how many pins they will demolish, give the proceeds to Covid-19 recovery or some worthy cause such as this. In championship bowling, the only interesting things to watch is when there is a 7-10 split. The best bowlers can sometimes pick up that difficult spare, and will risk the one point to try to pick up ten points: they hit right on the inner edge of the 7, bank it off the sideboard, sometimes it will come back over and take out the ten pin. In 55-pin bowling, splits will be common. Second fun idea: have the solid modeling hipsters model it and see whose sim can most accurately predict the outcome (including sound.) Just the sound of all those crashing pins, that delightful recreational destruction, would appeal to the inner caveman. Given a warehouse, I bet I could build a 55 pin alley. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu May 14 18:17:30 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 11:17:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new sport In-Reply-To: <00e101d62a1a$a66d3720$f347a560$@rainier66.com> References: <00e101d62a1a$a66d3720$f347a560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In the video game Wii Sports, there was a bowling mode which gradually increased the number of pins. What you describe has already been simulated. On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 11:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > The problem with mainstream sports is that it gets too boring: the > competitors all look alike and play alike after a while. Note > international level mile runners: all have an optimal body style, long and > lean, all alike, so boring: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOlw80g8A4g > > > > Oh wait, wrong video. That one looks less boring. Here we go, all > optimal nearly so, long, lean, running styles so similar you can?t tell one > from another: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do3G-AEvJfY > > > > OK so the beer mile was just for fun, but hell, games are supposed to be > fun. > > > > This gave me an idea. We know championship bowling is a good example of > the best players converge on a particular style. Up at the top level, they > get strikes most of the time, snooze, but what if? instead of having ten > pins with four in the back, we used all standard spacing, standard ball, > standard pins, with 55 pins, 10 in the back row? > > > > Would that be a kick or what? We could bring in top level bowlers who are > good enough to aim their ball to hit within about a cm or two of the sweet > spot on the 1 pin. We could get them to come by having the spectators bet > on how many pins they will demolish, give the proceeds to Covid-19 recovery > or some worthy cause such as this. > > > > In championship bowling, the only interesting things to watch is when > there is a 7-10 split. The best bowlers can sometimes pick up that > difficult spare, and will risk the one point to try to pick up ten points: > they hit right on the inner edge of the 7, bank it off the sideboard, > sometimes it will come back over and take out the ten pin. In 55-pin > bowling, splits will be common. > > > > Second fun idea: have the solid modeling hipsters model it and see whose > sim can most accurately predict the outcome (including sound.) Just the > sound of all those crashing pins, that delightful recreational destruction, > would appeal to the inner caveman. > > > > Given a warehouse, I bet I could build a 55 pin alley. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 14 18:33:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 11:33:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new sport In-Reply-To: References: <00e101d62a1a$a66d3720$f347a560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010601d62a1e$316caec0$94460c40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] new sport >?In the video game Wii Sports, there was a bowling mode which gradually increased the number of pins. What you describe has already been simulated? Cool, Adrian, a young hipster, up to speed on video games. That makes it even better: we have an existing sim. Now we set it up in the meat world to test the sim. Here?s a spin on it for yas: we go on about how all this could be a simulation of some kind, but what if? there were competing sims of our universe and the whatever it is writing and running the sims had competing algorithms that produced differing results. Then the sim writers would need to create or somehow arrange for an actual meat-world version of simulated reality to test the sims, kinda analogous to what I am proposing to test Adrian?s video game sim of higher-order bowling matches. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 14 19:36:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 15:36:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] new sport In-Reply-To: <010601d62a1e$316caec0$94460c40$@rainier66.com> References: <00e101d62a1a$a66d3720$f347a560$@rainier66.com> <010601d62a1e$316caec0$94460c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: My idea for a new sport is called "The Brick Wall Run", it would test not only an athlete's speed but also his courage and commitment to win. I'm imagining something similar to the 60 meter dash but the finish line would be replaced by a brick wall and the winner would be the first one that places his nose on that brick wall. I think it would be a very colorful contest. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu May 14 21:30:24 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 21:30:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] biggest winners in the shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <004701d629a3$458c77d0$d0a56770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2071310639.300317.1589491824116@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, May 14, 2020, 06:00:08 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? > Both the virus and the shutdown provides lots of juicy?red meat for conspiracy theories, just as every large world event does. When a lab is performing gain-of-function experiments on viruses, an outbreak does not require a conspiracy. It just takes a single overworked and underpaid lab technician or graduate student to lose concentration or focus for a a tenth of a second and touch his face. Especially if as Rafal suggests, the lab is working with the virus at BSL 2 instead of BSL 4. Wet markets have been part of Chinese culture for centuries. There are hundreds if not thousands of wet markets throughout China. Every city, town, and village likely had one. Level 4 biocontainment labs, however, are much more rare and there is only one in all of China. Assuming only one hundred wet markets in all of China and uninformative priors, the likelihood that the outbreak started in Wuhan because a virus escaped from the lab is greater than 99%. Bayes Theorem calls bullshit on the official story. And it doesn't require a conspiracy, just a mistake. And anybody who funded the gain-of-function research, no matter how noble their intentions, shares the responsibility and the blame. That includes the U.S. government and the Gates Foundation. Stuart LaForge ? ? From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 14 21:59:31 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 17:59:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: John, it sort of feels like you're missing my points. 1) By "magic" I did not mean impossible, I meant that we don't have technology to do the things you proposed. Nanotech to repair tissue fracture is just an idea, we don't have the technology, and we don;t know if and when it will emerge. So I do not plan to reply on the apprarance of a technology that may never exist. I think forms of nanotech repair are clearly possible, but there will most likely be limits in the prescision of placement of the atoms. And repairs of fractures in, for example, the spinal cord will require good precision. Rewiring may occur in repaired tissue of course, but who knows to what extent. 2) Cheap it may be, but I believe storage at higher temps - as high as feasible for cryopreservation - is what I think has better chances of reanimation. No need for refrigeration, an enclosure can be designed with liquid nitrogen that has a natural temperature gradient. The cooling will still be passive, the same amount of LN2 will be required, but the vessel will be much larger. 3) By what technology can ASC be used to replace a human brain? In any case, that follows 1) above. I still prefer cryopreservation of original tissue, 4) I don't think my atoms differ from your atoms. I don;t even think the atoms are important. I think my system and the information in the arrangement of my system is of surpeme importance, and I am not sure that can be copied, by nanotech or any other methods. Maybe it can. I am saying I do not know for sure, and that the uniquness lies in the information in how the complex interactions of all the various systems that compose an individal are arranged. 5) I'm buying that jkewl Seagate drive, thanks :) But alas you missed my point again, the problem was not in the mere storage space. Thats cheep and we all know it. Its in recovery of the various hierarchal data storage in the brain, as explained in my last post. 6) Your dismissal of "deconvolution of the data" shows the huge misunderstadnig between us. Its not about atom placement *at all*. That's just computational chemistry, and solving that would yield little or no idea about the data storage of the neural system (aka, brain). Each neuron in a working brain has between 10-10,000 dendrites, each dendrite has between 10-10,000 dendritic spines, a large percentage of which are dynamically remodelling. The connetions of each neuron (and there are 1000 types of neurons in the human brain) travel all over the brain, informing neurons near and far, in networks the pathways and correlations of which we do not know. Thats where the information lies. And I didn;t even mention the chemical (neurontransmitter, ionic concentrations) information. Recovery of a system like this is a daunting task. Save your original brain. 7) the response in 6) shows why I say ASC is complete brain desctruction. The information may or may not be saved - we don;t yet know where the information is, so we don;t know how to save it, or retrieve it. YOu can have raw data, like back in 2000 when we had the human genome. remember that? There were coffee table bvooks with the sequence printed out. But the sequence alone - raw data - was meaningless. We are still learning, 20 years later, how to interpret it. By no means can that data be used to reconstruct a human *unless* you have tons of other information. 8) YES I WOULD CARE!! That's my whole point! A copy is not and can never be you because "you" are a whole being, an agent - not fully described by information in your brain alone. A copy is a copy and when placed in another body, you are not in it. If someone makes a copy of you while you sleep (or at any time earlier) and puts it in another body, and then kills you - you are dead. You will have no access to the mind of the copy. It will be its own person, and may live happily ever after, which is nice for it, and for all your friends and family too . But not so nice for you. --Regina --------------------------- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 14:55:31 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 12:23 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I agree about repair of current crypreserved patients needing > Drexler-style nanotech (which might as well be magic at the moment,* > No. Traveling into the past and Faster Than Light Travel and Perpetual Motion Machines are magic, but Drexler's Machines don't need new physics or better science, they just need more advanced engineering, more specifically smaller fingers. * > which I alluded to in my prior post). I think the way forward will be > in the design of non-toxic cryoprotectants applied in a homogeneously > cooled manner, at a temperature far higher than that of liquid nitrogen.* > It's cheap to store things at -196 degrees Celsius, because that's the temperature of liquid Nitrogen which is only about as expensive as milk. It's very reliable too because such refrigeration requires no moving parts. But if you wanted to avoid cracking you'd have to store brains at -125 degrees Celsius and there is just no simple way to do that without much more complications and lots more ways things could break down and go disastrously wrong. It's just not worth taking that risk to avoid a minor problem like cracking, not to mention it would be much more expensive. > *> But the use of ASC is the exact opposite of preservation of the entire > body, it is a technology focused on uploading,* > It could also be used to make a identical biological brain, I very much doubt that will happen because it would be silly to put a person in such obsolete hardware, but there is no technological reason it couldn't be done. > which I do not believe will work if the goal is reanimating the same > person who went in. > Why not? You don't think the atoms in your body are fundamentally different from the atoms in my body do you? > *Consider that the amount of information needed to be read from the > upload (using unknown methods at the moment) has been estimated to take > hundreds of years just to read,* > The human brain has about 86 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses; and I found a 10 trillion byte USB 3.0 disk drive for $182. By next year it will be cheaper: Seagate Expansion 10TB USB 3.0 hard drive < https://www.newegg.com/black-seagate-expansion-10tb/p/N82E16822184781?Description=100%20tb%20external%20hard%20drive&cm_re=100_tb_external_hard_drive-_-22-184-781-_-Product > So with 10 of these you'd get 100 trillion bytes and it would cost less than 2 grand. And it doesn't even need Nanotechnology. It would take USB 3.0 about 7 hours to transfer 10 trillion bytes of information not hundreds of years. And by the age of Nanotechnology I have a hunch we'll have something a tad better than USB 3.0. > *with no idea how to deconvolute the data * If you understand how the human brain works that would be very nice but it's not necessary to revive a Cryonics patient, all you need to know is what atom is suposed to go where. > > *But worse - ASC is complete brain destruction,* > But it's not complete mind destruction as long as the information in that brain has been saved, that's why a computer disk drive crash is not an utter disaster if you have a backup copy. > *we can map the geography of the connectome clearly from an ASC preserved > brain (if we can Eye-Wire all the neurons! And glia....) we can't read the > chemical states, plus we lose all the dynamics of the smaller dendritic > spines.* > Why can't we read them? Chemical states and dendritic spines are made of atoms just like everything else. *> The chemical states include both the ionic state of each neuron, plus > the pattern of neurotransmitter concentrations. That information is all > lost. Forever.* > If all that stuff is important and if for some mysterious reason we can't read it then all forms of Cryonics is hopeless because any form of freezing is going to distort things and it you can't read something you can't repair (or replace) it. *> So, I say a huge *ACK!* to aldehyde stabilized cryopreservation, > beautiful as it is. It's a great tool to stabilize the tissue and to study > the connectome, no question. Brilliant. But if you ever want to be "you" > again - keep your brain intact !!!* > Yes, and electron microscopes show clear as a bell that ASC keeps a brain intact much better than the vitrification process Alcor uses today. > *> As per your comment re: hormonal cycles, yes. I think it may be > impossible to model a system that has inherent chaotic components.* > A double pendulum is a chaotic system but you can play around with a computer model of it just by moving your cursor, and there are plenty of other chaotic systems on the same site: My Physics Lab > *> The slow-replacement theory isn't persuasive, as each component > acclimates to the surroundings slowly which I think is ok. That's not a > massive uploading event.* > I don't know what that means. > *> The thought-experiment I trust the most, which is against uploading, > is the one where you consider uploading a copy made before you are dead > into a new body.* > I don't like that either because the thing I dislike about death is having a last thought, and in that scenario I would still have one. I would only be satisfied if my uploaded copy were made right NOW. How long is "now"? Long enough to have a thought, about a second, maybe two. > *A copy is a copy. Fun and maybe comforting for your surviving friends > and family, and to be sure it is an agent in its own right - its just not > you. * > And if you found out that last night after you went to speed somebody made a copy of you and then destroyed the original would you feel that you were not you, and if so did you feel that way before you found out what had happened? Or suppose the perpetrator got confused and destroyed one but now he isn't sure if it was the copy or the original he destroyed, would you care? I wouldn't. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 14 22:27:59 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 18:27:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Hiya Ben, Hm, I didn't mean to change my mind LOL. Thanks for the link, I'mm familiar with the Carboncopy site and also their weekend online seminars, which are very interesting. I just don;t agree that the technology will result in the initiating agent's reanimation. It certainly has the ability to create a new agant, no question. But the new agent is not the person whose brain was copied. Its an entirely new type of derivitive being, in pssision of your memories and all your data. It will be interesting, and that's all I can say :) You are not at all a copy of who you were 2 seconds ago, you are one integrated agent and time has passed. You have more experiences, 2 seconds more. But you are safely you. A perfect copy of your mind is not at all necessarily you! You are not only your mind, you are an integrated agent with a mind, and agent whose mind is tuned and accommodate to the body it inhabits. It may seem simple to rewire the cortex to a new body (and in fact I am excited to see how Carnavaro's head-switching surgety goes, as that can give insight into the rewioring of a cortex into a new body with many new senors, new hormonal cycles, and new system construction - withut dealing with lossy upload isses) but as I positied in previous posts I don't believe it is. In fact I think it may be too much for a human cortex to handle, and may induce mental issues due to the overwhelming nature of a mature brian re-learing all senosory input. Like a multi-year exposure to a non-ending LSD trip. Sounds awful to me. But, as I've alluded in prevoiuus posts, we are not close to understanding a copy of the data in the brain, and I belive it may be difficult or maybe impossible to reconstruct. So a "perfect copy" is a glib supposition. Its not a harddrive. An amoeba is a different system. Much simpler, and of course you are correct, asking which one of a split amoeba is the "real" one is meaningless. However an amoeba is not a brain, or a person. It's not even self-aware because it does not have any neurons, nor any memory. It's just a nice little machine - a reactive cell. I had a train when I was little, it had these bumbers on it and when it hit a wall or the furniture (or my Dad) it reversed. In this way it looked like it was exploring the room, and I loved it. But it had no memory, even though every exploration it took was different, that was so because it was iteritive and mechanical. It seemed alive but it was too simple to be so. An amoeba is similar. So a copy of an amoeba is fine, because the amoeba-biological-machmie is not really self-aware in the first place. IMHO!! YMMV! Of course :) --Regina ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 10:40:05 +0100 From: Ben Zaiboc To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 07/05/2020 16:56, Re Rose wrote: > I don't think an uploaded copy of my brain pattern in any way will or > ever can be "me". The slow-replacement theory isn't persuasive, as > each component acclimates to the surroundings slowly which I think is > ok. That's not a massive uploading event. The thought-experiment I > trust the most, which is against uploading,? is the one where you > consider uploading a copy made before you are dead into a new body. If > you aren't "in" that new agent animated by your copy (since you're > still alive) -- well, how will you ever be able to be "in" that or any > other copy ? IMHO, you can't. Not ever. A copy is a copy. Fun and > maybe comforting for your surviving friends and family, and to be sure > it is an agent in its own right - its just not you. > You seem to have changed your mind about uploading. I recommend reading "A Taxonomy and Metaphysics of Mind Uploading" by Keith Wiley, and having a look at this site: https://carboncopies.org/writing/ You assume that there can only be one 'you'. So far that has been true, but there's no law of physics that says it will always be true. A perfect copy of your mind would necessarily be you, unless you subscribe to some form of dualism, and think people have 'souls' in the way that religious people mean. You say 'a copy is a copy'. True. But what does that mean? I'm a copy of the me of 2 seconds ago. I'm still me. A copy of Beethoven's 9th symphony is a copy. It's still Beethoven's 9th symphony. As long as the copies are identical, it doesn't matter if after the process, there are two items or still one item (in the case of destructive copying). Or a hundred. There's nothing inferior about 'a copy', as long as its fidelity is high enough (a thing we don't yet know about brains is just how high the fidelity needs to be, for an upload). When an amoeba splits into two daughter amoebas by copying all of its parts, which is the 'real' amoeba, and which is the copy? Not only is it not possible to tell (even by radiolabelling its food), the question doesn't really mean anything. It has branched into two identical amoebas. Each has as much claim to be 'the real one' as the other. I can see no reason the same thing wouldn't be true of a copy of a mind. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 14 22:39:11 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 18:39:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Adrian, this is a great paper! Interesting stuff. This kind of mind/brain interconnection is exactly what I have in mind (no pun intended, haha). The communication between the gut and the brain is epic. And Spike, thanks for reading all the words~!! -Regina --------------------------------------- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:45:02 -0700 From: Adrian Tymes To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:56 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm confident that omitting data from the original body won't have any > significant effect on an uploaded mind. Apart from vague statements > about the body contributing to our consciousness, or our minds > 'extending into' the body, I've not heard of any evidence, or convincing > theory, to the contrary. > A lengthy article about exactly this topic came across my inbox just today. (I'm not sure if it's paywalled; please let me know if you can't read it.) https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/meet-psychobiome-gut-bacteria-may-alter-how-you-think-feel-and-act?utm_campaign=news_daily_2020-05-07&et_rid=17038235&et_cid=3318359 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 14 23:26:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 16:26:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01cb01d62a47$1ca7ec60$55f7c520$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data >?Adrian, this is a great paper! Interesting stuff. This kind of mind/brain interconnection is exactly what I have in mind (no pun intended, haha). The communication between the gut and the brain is epic. >?And Spike, thanks for reading all the words~!! -Regina --------------------------------------- My pleasure Regina. In your case it is easy. I must demur to your gratitude however, for it is my duty to read all: I am your friendly neighborhood omnipotent moderator. Powerful beyond all comprehension, but merciful in judgement He is! Willing to forgive His erring people, should they humbly repent! And all that crap. Your article is not paywalled, and is excellent, thanks! spike >?A lengthy article about exactly this topic came across my inbox just today. (I'm not sure if it's paywalled; please let me know if you can't read it.) https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/meet-psychobiome-gut-bacteria-may-alter-how-you-think-feel-and-act?utm_campaign=news_daily_2020-05-07&et_rid=17038235&et_cid=3318359 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 14 23:54:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 16:54:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reciprocal transparency In-Reply-To: <00ac01d62a0b$a6f6d750$f4e485f0$@rainier66.com> References: <00ac01d62a0b$a6f6d750$f4e485f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01e801d62a4b$07ddd2a0$179977e0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?Government officials could request ?unmasking? which is declassification of the identity of an American citizen on either end of {any international} call, while the requesting official?s identity would remain classified. >?Yesterday the head of National Intelligence carried out what Assange wanted over 20 years ago and declassified a list of 39 US government officials who requested unmasking of General Michael Flynn (who is that?) The names are obscure, I don?t think I have heard of the other four, but one name I definitely heard of, and that name is Ambassador Bass. What a shock to see Ambassador Bass right there .... I didn?t even realize Ernest T. Bass was still with us. ?spike OK I have an idea. Being revealed on a list of those who requested unmasking of Michael Flynn is harming the political future of Ambassador to Turkey Ernest T. Bass, even though what he did was legal. If the government can intercept our calls, and a select few may request to find out who are the participants, we can keep this power (which appears to violate Amendment 4) in check by always making every request for unmasking public domain. This would provide reciprocal transparency, and may discourage government officials from abusing this authority. Note that Ambassador Bass made a request that remained classified for nearly three and a half years. Now of course his political future is likely damaged by the revelation, and brings up the obvious question: why did Ambassador Ernest T. Bass want to know this information? Clearly he had a strong reason for wanting to know that information. So? I propose we maintain our 4th amendment rights by forcing the identity of every official requesting any unmasking into the public domain. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24727 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 15 00:14:19 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 17:14:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reciprocal transparency In-Reply-To: <01e801d62a4b$07ddd2a0$179977e0$@rainier66.com> References: <00ac01d62a0b$a6f6d750$f4e485f0$@rainier66.com> <01e801d62a4b$07ddd2a0$179977e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If the government can intercept our calls, and a select few may request to > find out who are the participants, we can keep this power (which appears to > violate Amendment 4) in check by always making every request for unmasking > public domain. > Sure, such a law or regulation could be passed. And Trump could concede the election before November. You will get more reception to ideas that are at least within the realm of plausibility. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 15 00:53:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 17:53:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reciprocal transparency In-Reply-To: References: <00ac01d62a0b$a6f6d750$f4e485f0$@rainier66.com> <01e801d62a4b$07ddd2a0$179977e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000001d62a53$37c5f260$a751d720$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] reciprocal transparency On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 4:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: If the government can intercept our calls, and a select few may request to find out who are the participants, we can keep this power (which appears to violate Amendment 4) in check by always making every request for unmasking public domain. Sure, such a law or regulation could be passed. And Trump could concede the election before November. You will get more reception to ideas that are at least within the realm of plausibility? Adrian I see what you are saying. In the meantime, every government person who requested the unmasking of General Flynn violated his civil rights. Ambassador Bass and those others (assuming they are in government) violated an American?s constitutional rights. If they were willing to violate his constitutional rights, any of them left in government will violate yours. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 15 07:08:48 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 08:08:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <627fe901-abc8-6603-3a05-1c6f65648ce7@zaiboc.net> On 14/05/2020 23:00, Re Rose wrote: > A copy is not and can never be you because "you" are a whole being, an > agent - not fully described by information?in your brain alone I'd be interested to know, then, what information /does/ fully describe 'you'. Unless you are claiming that 'you' is more than information? (and if so, then what else?). -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 15 07:24:14 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:24:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: <627fe901-abc8-6603-3a05-1c6f65648ce7@zaiboc.net> References: <627fe901-abc8-6603-3a05-1c6f65648ce7@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I tend to agree with the idea that there's something more to a person than the information encoded in the connectome. But perhaps this "something more" is essentially the same for everyone. I suspect that consciousness is really a physical state of matter. If so human minds can be uploaded by 1) capturing the information (memories etc.) encoded in a connectome, and 2) re-instantiating the information in a matter substrate with the potential for consciosuness. We?re on the way to achieving 1). Achieving 2) will likely require new physics, but science is moving in that direction. On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:10 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 14/05/2020 23:00, Re Rose wrote: > > A copy is not and can never be you because "you" are a whole being, an agent - not fully described by information in your brain alone > > > I'd be interested to know, then, what information does fully describe 'you'. > > Unless you are claiming that 'you' is more than information? (and if so, then what else?). > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 15 07:28:02 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 08:28:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6a0c54b9-390e-c62c-9fef-1ce7a3a8fca9@zaiboc.net> On 14/05/2020 23:00, Re Rose wrote: > You can have raw data, like back in 2000 when we had the human genome. > remember that? There were coffee table bvooks with the sequence > printed out. But the sequence alone - raw data - was meaningless. We > are still learning, 20 years later, how to interpret it. By no means > can that data be used to reconstruct a human *unless* you have tons of > other information. > I think this is an exaggeration, to say the? least. A full copy of a genome is far from meaningless, even if we don't yet know how to interpret it. Yes, tons of other information is needed to do that (without which the genome itself is useless, but not meaningless), but this information is different from the information in the genome, in that it applies to *all* genomes, as far as we know, so once it is figured out, suddenly any and all stored genomes can be understood. This is the same with stored brain data. Even if we had it, we wouldn't yet be able to make use of it, but once we figure out how, that knowledge will apply to all stored brain data-sets, and suddenly we'll be able to do uploading. Of course, we still don't even know how to get the brain data in the first place, but it's being worked on right now, so there are three steps: 1) preserve the brain so that the information is not lost 2) extract the information (probably the hardest part) and store it (the easiest part) 3) use the stored information to recreate the mind As far as we know, so far we can do number 1. Probably. But if you know of extra necessary information that all the people involved in actually doing this don't, please let us know what it is. Several groups are working on number 2, and so far we probably have very little clue how to do number 3. That will involve figuring out the procedures that will apply to all uploads, so once we know that, uploading will become a practical proposition (assuming number 2 is cracked by then). -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Fri May 15 11:09:08 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 07:09:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Really good question, Ben, thanks!! I think the whole of the information that defines "you" exists throughout your body -- and that technology such as we know it is not capable of copying it, and may never be. The connectome alone would not be enough information, your gut biome would not be enough information, all your dendritic spines in a 3D map would not be enough information. However, the whole of the interactions between all the relevant systems, plus their dynamics, most likely is enough information. That's what I believe you minimally need. Thus - I believe the information that makes up "you" quantifiably exists, and is installed and running on a biological agent, and that aggregate is you. I do not mean to imply that there is any non-quantifiable ethereal aspect of you which may be thought of as a soul. I think everything we're discussing here is basically quantifiable and mechanical, and that the information is there. I'm saying we don't yet have even the cluiest clue as to how to retrieve it. My biggest concern is that we might discover a technology that is "good enough" to fool people. It seems plausible that a copy, or a really good ASC preserved brain, should hold the data we need. That, IMHO, is a dangerous idea, because people will convince themselves that's all you need to preserve yourself. So the goal - to reanimate and continue to live your life - will not be met but YOU are not around to advocate for yourself! Your copy will be very happy to be reanimated, though, just as a stranger or a sibling might be. You are not your sibling, or a stranger, though, and you will not be there. This new uploaded agent may even believe it is "you". In fact I expect s/he would. They will avver that they are "you" because they will in fact be alive, and with your memories. How would a copy of you know it's not you? Hm. After all, it would be a being with your memories and experiences and and I believe it will believe it is you. But the real concern here is YOU being YOU! Just consider that you violate no physical law of anything by existing contemporaneously with this new being with your uploaded copy of your brain. So, la la la, you are hanging out with your copy one day. Having coffee, maybe. And a scone. It's pleasant and the coffee is good. You want to die now? Do you think you will magically inhabit this nice new being made from your upload, seeing from its eyes and gathering information from its sensors, because you now die? Nope. That won't happen, sadly. All that will happen is that you will die. And we don't want that! -Regina ----------------------------- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 08:08:48 +0100 From: Ben Zaiboc To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: <627fe901-abc8-6603-3a05-1c6f65648ce7 at zaiboc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" On 14/05/2020 23:00, Re Rose wrote: > A copy is not and can never be you because "you" are a whole being, an > agent - not fully described by information?in your brain alone I'd be interested to know, then, what information /does/ fully describe 'you'. Unless you are claiming that 'you' is more than information? (and if so, then what else?). -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 15 13:17:36 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:17:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 6:02 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John, it sort of feels like you're missing my points. 1) By "magic" I > did not mean impossible, I meant that we don't have technology to do the > things you proposed.* > Well of course we don't. Cryonics is a unproven technology and will remain that way until the day it becomes obsolete. The only way to prove it works is to bring a person back from being frozen, and if we have the ability to repair all that damage then we can certainly turn a sick person into a healthy person and so we won't need Cryonics anymore. > *> Nanotech to repair tissue fracture is just an idea, we don't have the > technology, and we don;t know if and when it will emerge. * > We know that Nanotech needs no new scientific principles to work and we know that nature has developed a crude version of it called "life". > > *I do not plan to reply on the apprarance of a technology that may > never exist.* > If you're going to bet on Cryonics then you've got no choice but to rely on, not new science but, new technology. We need smaller fingers. > > *I think forms of nanotech repair are clearly possible, but there will > most likely be limits in the prescision of placement of the atoms. And > repairs of fractures in, for example, the spinal cord will require good > precision.* > To have any hope of bringing somebody back we don't need good precision we need extraordinarily superb precision, and if repair technology is not good enough to fix a displacement caused by a simple fracture then it doesn't have a chance of repairing the other far more complex forms of damage caused by even the best freezing technology that exist today. Forget cracking, the important thing is to do everything you can to avoid chaotic turbulence when the tissue freezes because if that happens then very small changes in initial conditions could lead to huge changes in outcome and so you'll never figure out where things were before they were frozen, and ASC is the best method I know of to avoid turbulence at the micro scale. > *Cheap it may be, but I believe storage at higher temps - as high as > feasible for cryopreservation - is what I think has better chances of > reanimation. No need for refrigeration, an enclosure can be designed with > liquid nitrogen that has a natural temperature gradient. The cooling will > still be passive, the same amount of LN2 will be required, but the vessel > will be much larger.* > It's simple and cheap to store a brain at -196C, you just put it in a big thermos and pore in some liquid nitrogen, but to evenly store it at -135C would be complex and expensive, you'd need all sorts of fans and heat exchangers and sensors and a computer network to manage it all, and that is a lot of places where a catastrophic failure could occur. I don't understand why you're so worried about fractures, things would be solid so there is no way the transition from -135C to -196C could be as a chaotic flow, it would be a simple displacement and thus be easy to figure out where things are suposed to go. To bring somebody back you're going to have to do a lot of things more complex than that. > *By what technology can ASC be used to replace a human brain?* > The information that ASC preserves can be used to replace a human brain in a number of different ways. Electronics would be the most obvious method, another possibility would be Drexler's atomic scale mechanical computers. You could even go old school and make another biological brain if you could find a reason for making use of such obsolete technology. I can't think of one. >* I still prefer cryopreservation of original tissue* > The atoms in your brain get recycled every few months and if you've seen one carbon atom you've seen them all, so exactly what is so original about that "original tissue"? *> 4) I don't think my atoms differ from your atoms. I don;t even think the > atoms are important. I think my system and the information in the > arrangement of my system is of surpeme importance,* > I most certainly agree, in fact preserving that information is the only thing that is important. > *and I am not sure that can be copied, by nanotech or any other methods. > Maybe it can. I am saying I do not know for sure* > When it comes to Cryonics there is a lot we don't know for sure, so we just do the best we can, and currently as proven by a electron microscope, the best way to preserve brain information for the long term is ASC. Is it good enough to bring somebody back if we had Nanotech? I hope so but I'm not sure. > *> Each neuron in a working brain has between 10-10,000 dendrites, each > dendrite has between 10-10,000 dendritic spines, a large percentage of > which are dynamically remodelling. The connetions of each neuron (and there > are 1000 types of neurons in the human brain) travel all over the brain, > informing neurons near and far, in networks the pathways and correlations > of which we do not know. Thats where the information lies.* > I know that's where the information lies, and the best way to preserve that information with the least amount of distortion is through ASC. We know that for a fact because it produces the best Electron Microscope pictures. And dendritic spines are absolutely ENORMOUS compared to atoms, and the very definition of Nanotechnology is the control of matter at the atomic level. If Nanotechnology is impossible then Cryonics doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever working, but I don't see how that could be the case. I mean how do you think all those dendritic spines came into existence in the first place? Through nature's own crude form of nanotechnology that's how. And what random mutation and natural selection can do a intelligent designer, aka people and computers, can do better. * > And I didn;t even mention the chemical (neurontransmitter, ionic > concentrations) information.* > That's just more atoms in various positions. *> Recovery of a system like this is a daunting task. * > It certainly is! That's why we can't do it right now. > *> Save your original brain. * > OK let's save it as best we can. ASC would save your brain, not with zero distortion, but with the least amount of distortion currently known. The best we can do is the best we can do so let's just hope it's good enough. > *I say ASC is complete brain desctruction. The information may or may > not be saved - we don;t yet know where the information is,* > I agree, the information may or may not be saved, maybe chaotic motion sets in during freezing and even ASC can't preserve enough vital information to bring you back, but if ASC isn't good enough then Alcor's current method certainly isn't good enough either because we know for a fact from electron microscope pictures that ASC does a better job at preserving information with less distortion. > > *YOu can have raw data, like back in 2000 when we had the human genome. > remember that? There were coffee table bvooks with the sequence printed > out. But the sequence alone - raw data - was meaningless. We are still > learning, 20 years later, how to interpret it. By no means can that data be > used to reconstruct a human *unless* you have tons of other information.* > If you want to preserve the information on what makes you be you then ASC is the way to go. And you don't have to understand all the intricacies of the human genome to xerox a coffee table book containing it, a child could do it. And you don't have to have deep thoughts or a poetic soul to spell check a book of poetry, you just need to know how to spell. *8) YES I WOULD CARE!! That's my whole point! A copy is not and can never > be you because "you" are a whole being, an agent - not fully described by > information in your brain alone. A copy is a copy and when placed in > another body, you are not in it.* > I'm sorry Rose but that objection just makes no sense. Atoms are constantly shifting into and out of your body but that makes no difference because atoms don't have our names scratched on them. And unless you were specifically told you'd have no way of even knowing if any additional copies of you had been made. In fact in this context I don't even know what "original" and "copy" mean. Are you the original Rose or was that the Rose of one year ago? What about the Rose of 2 years ago, or 3, they all have different atoms and some have longer memories than others. > *> If someone makes a copy of you while you sleep (or at any time earlier) > and puts it in another body, and then kills you - you are dead.* > What if I gave you proof that is exactly what happened to you last night, would you now feel dead? What if I gave you proof that happened every time you went to sleep since you were born? Suppose every hour your body was destroyed and instantly replaced by an exact copy, now let's do the replacement every minute and then every second and then every nanosecond. Through it all you notice nothing unusual and just go on and live your life. > > *You will have no access to the mind of the copy.* > If you are the copy then you have the exact same access to her past memories that she has, both will remember being Rose yesterday, but the two of you will have different futures, you will have diverged because from the instant of copying onward the 2 individuals will be in different places and be seeing different things and be forming different memories. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 15 14:10:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 10:10:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 6:31 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> A perfect copy of your mind is not at all necessarily you! * So I'm not me I just think I'm me, and I'm not alive I just think I'm alive? Personally I don't care if objectively I'm dead as long as subjectively I'm not because subjectivity is the most important thing in the universe. Or at least it is in my opinion. *> A copy of Beethoven's 9th symphony is a copy. * Then does anybody know what the original (whatever that means) Beethoven's 9th symphony sound like? And if 2 iPhones are in sync and playing Beethoven's 9th and I destroy one with an ax does the music stop? *> You assume that there can only be one 'you'. So far that has been > true, but there's no law of physics that says it will always be true.* That is absolutely correct. I have long maintained the much of the philosophical confusion over this issue is the fault of my third grade teacher who erroneously told me that "John K Clark" was a noun and "I" and "you" were pronouns when in fact they are adjectives. I am the way matter behaves when it is organized in a johnkclarkian way, currently there is only one chunk of matter in the observable universe that has that property but with Nanotechnology there could be a arbitrarily large number of such chunks. *> You are not at all a copy of who you were 2 seconds ago, you are one > integrated agent and time has passed. You have more experiences, 2 seconds > more. But you are safely you. * It seems to me your distinctions on what is you and what is not you and what is a copy and what is the original are completely arbitrary with no underlying logical theme that unites them. *> we are not close to understanding a copy of the data in the brain, and I > belive it may be difficult or maybe impossible to reconstruct. So a > "perfect copy" is a glib supposition* If you remain the same person after you've had a sip of coffee as you were before then the copy need not be absolutely perfect. *> You are not only your mind, you are an integrated agent with a mind, and > agent whose mind is tuned and accommodate to the body it inhabits* If you lost your big toe in an accident would you become a different person? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 15 14:27:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 07:27:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007c01d62ac5$03587120$0a095360$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat ? > Cheap it may be, but I believe storage at higher temps - as high as feasible for cryopreservation - is what I think has better chances of reanimation. No need for refrigeration, an enclosure can be designed with liquid nitrogen that has a natural temperature gradient. The cooling will still be passive, the same amount of LN2 will be required, but the vessel will be much larger. >?It's simple and cheap to store a brain at -196C, you just put it in a big thermos and pore in some liquid nitrogen, but to evenly store it at -135C would be complex and expensive, you'd need all sorts of fans and heat exchangers and sensors and a computer network to manage it all, and that is a lot of places where a catastrophic failure could occur? On the contrary. Storing at a stable -135C is cheaper and easier than -196C: -135C is below the critical point of argon. Liquid argon gradually boils off at -135C when held around 30atm (as I recall (it was way below the pressure of our lab compressed argon bottles (which were 200 atm.))) This turned into a big deal right around 1986 when liquid nitrogen temperature superconductivity was discovered. The boss of the lab where we worked heard that this effect might even work as high as 150 to 160 K range, so he let us fool with setting up a liquid-argon pressure vessel (we wanted to see if it would be a pain in the ass to vent the argon (with the notion that if there is too much of it, argon would displace air and you couldn?t tell until you died.)) Turns out it is easy to maintain -135C. There are other things that can be added to the argon to raise the boiling point even higher. I had thought of oxygen, but that didn?t raise the BP much at all. Besides that, venting oxygen into a lab isn?t a good idea either: if there is a lot of it in one place, it makes a fire hazard. I never heard that superconductivity much above liquid nitrogen temperatures ever did happen. If we can find any benefit (or even non-harm) to storing brains or full body at -135C, I know how to do that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 15 14:53:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 10:53:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <007c01d62ac5$03587120$0a095360$@rainier66.com> References: <007c01d62ac5$03587120$0a095360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 10:31 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >>?It's simple and cheap to store a brain at -196C, you just put it in a >> big thermos and pore in some liquid nitrogen, but to evenly store it at >> -135C would be complex and expensive, you'd need all sorts of fans and heat >> exchangers and sensors and a computer network to manage it all, and that is >> a lot of places where a catastrophic failure could occur? > > > > > *> On the contrary. Storing at a stable -135C is cheaper and easier than > -196C: -135C is below the critical point of argon. Liquid argon gradually > boils off at -135C when held around 30atm* > At atmospheric pressure the boiling point of liquid argon is -186C, and I think it would be a very bad idea to have large containers full of brains pressurized at 30 atm. And liquid nitrogen cost about 30 cents a liter but liquid argon costs $2.25 a liter. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 15 16:01:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:01:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: References: <007c01d62ac5$03587120$0a095360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bf01d62ad2$115dff80$3419fe80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 10:31 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?It's simple and cheap to store a brain at -196C, you just put it in a big thermos and pore in some liquid nitrogen, but to evenly store it at -135C would be complex and expensive, you'd need all sorts of fans and heat exchangers and sensors and a computer network to manage it all, and that is a lot of places where a catastrophic failure could occur? > On the contrary. Storing at a stable -135C is cheaper and easier than -196C: -135C is below the critical point of argon. Liquid argon gradually boils off at -135C when held around 30atm At atmospheric pressure the boiling point of liquid argon is -186C, and I think it would be a very bad idea to have large containers full of brains pressurized at 30 atm. And liquid nitrogen cost about 30 cents a liter but liquid argon costs $2.25 a liter. John K Clark Regarding cost of argon vs nitrogen, that wouldn?t matter if the cycle is closed-loop: it doesn?t actually use up the material. When we were fooling with it in the 80s, we had an open-loop system, but a full recovery re-condensation dual cycle is possible, as well as a hybrid system which uses liquid air as the heat sink for the argon condenser. The motive for using argon is that -135C is still below its critical temperature. I can see big advantages to that. The big disadvantage I can see is the risk of catastrophic loss of pressure, which would cause the temperature of the stored bio-material to drop quickly to -186C. That would be a bad thing. I may not have understood the reason why -135C came up to start with, but the process control part of that problem caught my attention. Process control is one of the coolest (interesting and fun, not specifically about temperature) fields of engineering I know of. It unleashes the inner inventor in a prole. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 15 16:28:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 11:28:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] D3 Message-ID: Big articles on Google News about that vitamin and the virus, and about diabetes. Sure but not certain that everybody is taking their pills, but you might want to read about it. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 15 19:14:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 15:14:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) In-Reply-To: <00bf01d62ad2$115dff80$3419fe80$@rainier66.com> References: <007c01d62ac5$03587120$0a095360$@rainier66.com> <00bf01d62ad2$115dff80$3419fe80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> At atmospheric pressure the boiling point of liquid argon is -186C, >> and I think it would be a very bad idea to have large containers full of >> brains pressurized at 30 atm. And liquid nitrogen cost about 30 cents a >> liter but liquid argon costs $2.25 a liter. > > > > > *Regarding cost of argon vs nitrogen, that wouldn?t matter if the cycle > is closed-loop: it doesn?t actually use up the material. When we were > fooling with it in the 80s, we had an open-loop system, but a full recovery > re-condensation dual cycle is possible, as well as a hybrid system which > uses liquid air as the heat sink for the argon condenser.* > That's way too many ways for things to go wrong, among other problems you'd have to have a mechanical compressor, and you'd be at the mercy of the electrical power grid. With liquid nitrogen refrigeration you have no moving parts and brains would remain at -196C for several weeks even if you did nothing and even with the power off, and after that maintenance would not be complicated, all you'd have to do for maintenance is pour in some more LN2 to top off the tank. The simpler the better if you want something to keep working for a long time. *> I can see big advantages to that. The big disadvantage I can see is the > risk of catastrophic loss of pressure, which would cause the temperature of > the stored bio-material to drop quickly to -186C. That would be a bad > thing.* It would be bad for the brains and bad for anybody standing nearby when the pressure leak happened. *> I may not have understood the reason why -135C came up to start with,* > The idea is above that temperature you get less cracking in frozen biological tissue, however I don't see that as a major problem, but a pressure leak or a malfunctioning compressor would be. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 15 20:12:09 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 21:12:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15/05/2020 17:28, John K Clark wrote: > If you lost your big toe in an accident would you become a different > person? > > John K Clark You're slipping, John. Don't you mean "in a accident"? :D Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 15 20:17:07 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 21:17:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683@zaiboc.net> On 15/05/2020 17:28, Re Rose wrote: > My biggest concern is that we might discover a technology that is > "good enough" to fool people. It seems plausible that a copy, or a > really good ASC preserved brain, should hold the data we need. That, > IMHO, is a dangerous idea, because people will convince themselves > that's all you need to preserve yourself. So the goal - to reanimate > and continue to live your life - will not be met but YOU are not > around to advocate for yourself! Your copy will be very happy to be > reanimated, though, just as a stranger or a sibling might be. You are > not your sibling, or a stranger, though, and you will not be there. "How would a copy of you know it's not you? Hm. After all, it would be a being with your memories and experiences and and I believe it will believe it is you" That sounds like a nonsensical question to me. How could you tell that a copy of 'Imagine' by John Lennon was not in fact 'Imagine' by John Lennon? After all, it would have all the same notes in the same order, and it would sound just like 'Imagine' by John Lennon. You could argue that a piece of music is not the same as a mind, but then you'd be arguing for something special, above and beyond information, that constitutes a mind, and you've already said that you don't claim that. I recognise that minds are not fixed patterns, whereas a specific piece of music is, but that doesn't affect the argument. A dynamic pattern of information just contains extra information that describes how the pattern changes under particular circumstances. In essence, this is no different to a static pattern. It's all information. I can't really get my head around this concept that an identical copy (a good-enough copy, really) of you isn't really 'you'. Who would it be? it can't be Napoleon, it can't be Genghis Khan, it can only be you. Saying "but it's only a copy!" is meaningless. Yes, it's a copy. A copy of you. Ergo, you. It can't be anyone else, can it. I wrote a post about the amoeba splitting, but my computer crashed and I lost it. Basically, I said the amoeba is just like a neuron, and if one of your neurons underwent the same fission process, you wouldn't be able to tell any difference between the two daughter neurons, and if you destroyed one, it wouldn't matter one bit which one was destroyed (assuming the same connections to other neurons were preserved). Extrapolate this to all the neurons in your brain, and you effectively have a copy of your brain which is identical to the original. Do you really think this would result in a person that was 'not you'? Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 15 20:38:09 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 16:38:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683@zaiboc.net> References: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 4:22 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I can't really get my head around this concept that an identical copy > (agood-enough copy, really) of you isn't really 'you'.* I don't understand that either. It would be like saying Homer didn't write the iliad and the Odyssey, it was really written by another blind poet from Ionia who also lived in the eighth century BC and happen to have the same name. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri May 15 20:44:25 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 14:44:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: The concept is very simple. I don't want that "me" changing the locks on "my" house. On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:40 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 4:22 PM Ben via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> >> *> I can't really get my head around this concept that an identical copy >> (agood-enough copy, really) of you isn't really 'you'.* > > > I don't understand that either. It would be like saying Homer didn't write > the iliad and the Odyssey, it was really written by another blind poet from > Ionia who also lived in the eighth century BC and happen to have the same > name. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri May 15 20:47:06 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 14:47:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Put another way, there is a deeply meaningful difference between "me" and "a copy of me". We have strongly differing preferences as to whose key opens the locks to my house, and whose bank account "my" employer deposits "my" paycheque into. On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:44 PM Darin Sunley wrote: > The concept is very simple. I don't want that "me" changing the locks on > "my" house. > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:40 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 4:22 PM Ben via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> *> I can't really get my head around this concept that an identical copy >>> (agood-enough copy, really) of you isn't really 'you'.* >> >> >> I don't understand that either. It would be like saying Homer didn't >> write the iliad and the Odyssey, it was really written by another blind >> poet from Ionia who also lived in the eighth century BC and happen to have >> the same name. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri May 15 20:51:03 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 14:51:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Questions of philosophical identity are all fun and games until they slam into property rights at relativistic speed. On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:47 PM Darin Sunley wrote: > Put another way, there is a deeply meaningful difference between "me" and > "a copy of me". We have strongly differing preferences as to whose key > opens the locks to my house, and whose bank account "my" employer deposits > "my" paycheque into. > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:44 PM Darin Sunley wrote: > >> The concept is very simple. I don't want that "me" changing the locks on >> "my" house. >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:40 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 4:22 PM Ben via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> *> I can't really get my head around this concept that an identical >>>> copy (agood-enough copy, really) of you isn't really 'you'.* >>> >>> >>> I don't understand that either. It would be like saying Homer didn't >>> write the iliad and the Odyssey, it was really written by another blind >>> poet from Ionia who also lived in the eighth century BC and happen to have >>> the same name. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri May 15 20:52:17 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 14:52:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: If your theory of identity can't be used to derive a workable set of property rights laws, it's not much good for anything. On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:51 PM Darin Sunley wrote: > Questions of philosophical identity are all fun and games until they > slam into property rights at relativistic speed. > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:47 PM Darin Sunley wrote: > >> Put another way, there is a deeply meaningful difference between "me" and >> "a copy of me". We have strongly differing preferences as to whose key >> opens the locks to my house, and whose bank account "my" employer deposits >> "my" paycheque into. >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:44 PM Darin Sunley wrote: >> >>> The concept is very simple. I don't want that "me" changing the locks on >>> "my" house. >>> >>> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:40 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 4:22 PM Ben via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> *> I can't really get my head around this concept that an identical >>>>> copy (agood-enough copy, really) of you isn't really 'you'.* >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't understand that either. It would be like saying Homer didn't >>>> write the iliad and the Odyssey, it was really written by another blind >>>> poet from Ionia who also lived in the eighth century BC and happen to have >>>> the same name. >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 15 21:18:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 17:18:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 4:47 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The concept is very simple. I don't want that "me" changing the locks on > "my" house.* > What if you found out there was some other guy who had a key to your house and claimed to be Darin Sunley? Wouldn't you want to change the locks before he did? But if you did would that mean you are not you? *> Put another way, there is a deeply meaningful difference between "me" > and "a copy of me".* The law of the land might make some random arbitrary decision on which one was the real deal, just as it has in deciding that one voter gets much more influence than another, but logically both would have equally valid claims to be Darin Sunley. *> Questions of philosophical identity are all fun and games until they > slam into property rights at relativistic speed.* Welcome to the Singularity meat grinder. *> If your theory of identity can't be used to derive a workable set of > property rights laws, it's not much good for anything. * Both have a equally valid claim to be called Darin Sunley so regardless of who eventually gets to live in that house Darin Sunley will feel that justice has been achieved and Darin Sunley will feel that a profound injustice has been committed and Darin Sunley will be absolutely correct. If that seems weird well that's why it's called a Singularity. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat May 16 08:45:00 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 09:45:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15/05/2020 08:09, Re Rose wrote: > Hiya Ben, > > Hm, I didn't mean to change my mind LOL. Thanks for the link, I'mm > familiar with the Carboncopy site and also their weekend?online > seminars, which are very interesting. I just don;t agree that the > technology will result?in the initiating agent's reanimation. It > certainly?has the ability to create a new agant, no question. But the > new agent is not the person whose brain was copied. Its an entirely > new type of derivitive being, in pssision of your memories and all > your data. It will be interesting, and that's all I can say? :) > > You are not at all a copy of who you were 2 seconds ago, you are one > integrated agent and time has passed. You have more experiences, 2 > seconds more. But you are safely you. > > A perfect copy of your mind is not at all necessarily you! You are not > only your mind, you are an integrated agent with a mind, and agent > whose mind is tuned and accommodate?to the body it inhabits. It may > seem simple to rewire the cortex to a new body (and in fact I am > excited to see how Carnavaro's?head-switching surgety goes, as that > can give insight into the rewioring of a cortex into a new body with > many new senors, new hormonal cycles, and new system construction - > withut?dealing with lossy upload isses) but as I positied in previous > posts I don't believe it is. In fact? I think? it may be too much for > a human?cortex to handle, and may induce mental issues due to the > overwhelming nature of a mature brian re-learing all senosory input. > Like a multi-year exposure to a non-ending LSD trip. Sounds awful to me. > > But, as I've alluded in prevoiuus posts, we are not close to > understanding a copy of the data in the brain, and I belive it may be > difficult or maybe impossible to reconstruct. So a "perfect copy" is a > glib supposition. Its not a harddrive. > > An amoeba is a different system. Much simpler, and of course you are > correct, asking which one of a split amoeba is the "real" one is > meaningless. However an amoeba is not a brain,?or a person. It's not > even self-aware because it does not have any neurons, nor any memory. > It's just a nice little machine - a reactive cell.? I had a train when > I was little, it had these bumbers on it and when it hit a wall or the > furniture (or my Dad) it reversed. In this?way it looked like it was > exploring the room, and I loved it. But it had no memory, even though > every exploration it took was different, that was so because it was > iteritive and mechanical. It seemed alive but it was too simple to be > so. An amoeba is similar. So a copy of an amoeba is fine, because the > amoeba-biological-machmie is not really self-aware in the first place. > IMHO!! YMMV! Of course? ?:) > Aha! Retrieved my original reply: It certainly does (my mileage vary). What you don't seem to appreciate (or accept) is that 'a copy' and 'an integrated agent, and time has passed' are the same thing, when you look at things in detail. You accept that atoms (i.e. material) are not important, and information (the arrangements and interactions of atoms) is, yet insist that a copy (the same information) would somehow not be the same 'you'. This is inconsistent. At least, it is as long as you accept that atoms and information are the only players of any significance. If you are information, and the same information appears somewhere else, you appear somewhere else. This is inescapable. You say "You are not only your mind, you are an integrated agent with a mind". If that is so, then the 'you' is a separate thing to 'your' mind. What is that thing? As far as I can see, I'm not a separate thing that 'has a mind', I am a mind. Saying 'you are not only your mind' is really just saying that 'mind' consists of more than we normally think it does. I don't disagree that I'm an integrated agent, but that's 'my mind' (or rather, the mind that is me). They are the same thing. And whatever it encompasses, that is all embodied information. So if the information can be extracted and embodied in another form, then I am there, in that other form. I don't see how reproducing the inputs that a human cortex is designed to handle could be too much for a human cortex to handle. Isn't that an oxymoron? Getting your wires crossed, and having auditory input go to your visual centres, and so on, would indeed be terribly confusing, and possibly drive some people mad, but that's an engineering glitch, not a fundamental objection to uploading. It just means the job was botched and needs to be done again. Undoubtedly there will be such glitches, that we'll learn from before getting it right. The only objection I can sensibly come up with is "I wouldn't want to be the first upload". When I say "a perfect copy", I mean a "good enough copy", naturally. We don't yet know what that will consist of. Again, that's not a fundamental objection, it's just a lack of knowledge which we will overcome sooner or later. I picked an Amoeba as an example deliberately, because it's a living system. It uses the same mechanisms as our neurons for all the basic functions of a living cell. If you can't tell the difference betwee the 'original' and the 'copy', then the same would be true if a neuron was to multiply all its internal structures and split in the same way. If the two daughter neurons also retained all the connections, there would be literally no way to tell them apart, and if we were to destroy one of them, it wouldn't matter in the slightest which one was picked. The same would be true of an entire brain that was duplicated. Or an entire body. At the split second that the copy was made, one could be destroyed and it wouldn't make any difference. After that, of course, the two duplicates would start to accumulate different experiences, and become two different people, but with common memories. Each would be as different from the original as each other, though. Each would have an equal claim to be a continuation of the original person (which only exists in the past). -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 16 11:22:26 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 07:22:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 4:48 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *If you are information, and the same information appears somewhere else, > you appearsomewhere else. This is inescapable.* Yes, that's because you don't have thoughts you are thoughts so it's irrelevant what happens to think you, and because consciousness is the way data feels when it is being processed. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 17 16:41:35 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 12:41:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Making a GOOGOL:1 Reduction with Lego Gears Message-ID: Making a GOOGOL:1 Reduction with Lego Gears John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun May 17 19:03:28 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 13:03:28 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Making a GOOGOL:1 Reduction with Lego Gears In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At some point relatively early in that chain, the gear is receiving less than one Planck-length of movement from the each revolution of the spinning motor. And shortly before that, the gear is receiving more movement from it's own quantum fluctuations than from the spinning of the motor. And before that, the gear is receiving more motion from thermal expansion and contraction from currents of the room's air conditioning passing over it than from the spinning motor. I like it. :) On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:44 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Making a GOOGOL:1 Reduction with Lego Gears > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 17 19:41:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 14:41:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the brain Message-ID: https://www.sciencealert.com/neuroscientists-think-they-ve-found-an-entirely-new-form-of-neural-communication bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun May 17 20:23:03 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 14:23:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Making a GOOGOL:1 Reduction with Lego Gears In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nicely shows the unreal power of math. I like it too. On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 1:05 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > At some point relatively early in that chain, the gear is receiving less > than one Planck-length of movement from the each revolution of the spinning > motor. > > And shortly before that, the gear is receiving more movement from it's own > quantum fluctuations than from the spinning of the motor. > > And before that, the gear is receiving more motion from thermal expansion > and contraction from currents of the room's air conditioning passing over > it than from the spinning motor. > > I like it. :) > > On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:44 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Making a GOOGOL:1 Reduction with Lego Gears >> >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun May 17 20:51:45 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 21:51:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17/05/2020 21:23, Darin Sunley wrote: > Put another way, there is a deeply meaningful difference between "me" > and "a copy of me". We have strongly differing preferences as to whose > key opens the locks to my house, and whose bank account "my" employer > deposits "my" paycheque into. You are simply talking about two versions of 'me'. 'Me1' and 'Me2'. In a situation where there are two of you, and only one set of belongings, of course there would be a conflict. This has nothing to do with the argument about whether a 'copy of you' is 'you' or not. Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 17 23:22:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 19:22:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 4:54 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: On 17/05/2020 21:23, Darin Sunley wrote: > > > Put another way, there is a deeply meaningful difference between "me" >> > and "a copy of me". We have strongly differing preferences as to whose >> > key opens the locks to my house, and whose bank account "my" employer >> > deposits "my" paycheque into. > > > > You are simply talking about two versions of 'me'. 'Me1' and 'Me2'. In > a > situation where there are two of you, and only one set of belongings, of > course there would be a conflict. This has nothing to do with the > argument about whether a 'copy of you' is 'you' or not. > You and an exact copy of you are facing each other an equal distance from the center of a symmetrical room. I have a switch and tell you that when I throw it you will instantly exchange positions. When I do you would notice no difference, you could not even determine if I was telling the truth; the switch might have been connected to nothing, or maybe not, but either way it makes no difference to you#1 or to you#2. And if it makes no difference it would be pointless to pretend that there are 2 different yous. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun May 17 23:37:02 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 16:37:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the brain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Communicating via electrical induction, on top of all the other methods? I can see it. On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 12:43 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://www.sciencealert.com/neuroscientists-think-they-ve-found-an-entirely-new-form-of-neural-communication > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon May 18 00:41:17 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 00:41:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1407148172.415768.1589762477684@mail.yahoo.com> On Sunday, May 17, 2020, 04:23:26 PM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 4:54 PM Ben via extropy-chat wrote: > On 17/05/2020 21:23, Darin Sunley wrote: ? >>??> Put another way, there is a deeply meaningful difference between "me" >>> and "a copy of me". We have strongly differing preferences as to whose >>> key opens the locks to my house, and whose bank account "my" employer >>> deposits "my" paycheque into. > >> You are simply talking about two versions of 'me'. 'Me1' and 'Me2'. In a > situation where there are two of you, and only one set of belongings, of > course there would be a conflict. This has nothing to do with the > argument about whether a 'copy of you' is 'you' or not. > > You and an exact copy of you are facing each other an equal distance from the center of a symmetrical room. I have a switch and tell you that when I throw it you will instantly exchange positions. When I do you would notice no difference, you could not even determine if I was telling the truth; the switch might have been connected to nothing, or maybe not, but either way it makes no difference to you#1 or to you#2. And if it makes no difference it would be pointless to pretend that there are 2 different yous. ---------------------------- Considering all the abusive, cruel, and unusual experiments that marked the early days of psychology as an empirical science, I am a little surprised that nobody ever tried to raise a set of identical twins as if they were the same person. These days, it would be too controversial to perform. Stuart LaForge From rocket at earthlight.com Mon May 18 11:14:09 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 07:14:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Well, yes, a full genome sequence is meaningful in context, but useless without tools to understand the hierarchical tiers of information in it, and the information thatis not in it. If you are an alien life form with no idea of: DNA structure and function, the identity of the specific set of amino acids the organisim can metabolize or acquire - unavailable information from the genome, by the way - and other peculiaritiies of earthly biological evolutionary strategies, like essential metals and other external nutrients, you will not be able to make any sense at all of the sequence. And then there are epigenetic marks, which are another heirarchical layer of data, not captured in the genome alone but essential for interpreting it. So yes, there is some information in the bare sequence - but how to unlock even that? That's the concept I was going for. Without all the additional external information that is not present, plus knowledge of coding sequences, delineation of exons and introns, control sequences, error-correction mechanisims, etc, the organism simply cannot be reconstructed. My contention (I state again) is that the neural copies we are talking about likewise do not contain all the information necessary to recreate the person. What does contain all the information? Your body. Hence we cycle back to my original posting - I think "you" as a conscious agent are one unit, a whole entity, and saving the connectome or neural spiking data will not save "you". You could recreate a different entity, maybe. Its just not YOU. With luck it may indeed seem like you to others. I think in fact that is a highy likely outcome, especially if you are in a host that looks like you. It may not seem like you after awhile to your closest family and friends, but to the world at large, yeah, that's you. To your points -- *"Preserving the brain so information is not lost"* - I'm saying you lose all sorts of information by simply preserving the brain. Both "*extract the information (probably the hardest part) and store it (the easiest part)" and "use the stored information to recreate the mind*" are also problematic, I'm saying all the information is not there but feel free to extract what you can!! Electrical information will most likely be gone and with that, much of the correlation data and specific neural codes. The smallest dendritic spines and many of the mid sized ones are not readable, and may be damaged due to their size and filamentousness, and 100% of the dynamic interaction information will be gone, as well as the hornal signalling patterns. Uh oh. --Regina ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 08:28:02 +0100 From: Ben Zaiboc To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: <6a0c54b9-390e-c62c-9fef-1ce7a3a8fca9 at zaiboc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" On 14/05/2020 23:00, Re Rose wrote: > You can have raw data, like back in 2000 when we had the human genome. > remember that? There were coffee table bvooks with the sequence > printed out. But the sequence alone - raw data - was meaningless. We > are still learning, 20 years later, how to interpret it. By no means > can that data be used to reconstruct a human *unless* you have tons of > other information. > I think this is an exaggeration, to say the? least. A full copy of a genome is far from meaningless, even if we don't yet know how to interpret it. Yes, tons of other information is needed to do that (without which the genome itself is useless, but not meaningless), but this information is different from the information in the genome, in that it applies to *all* genomes, as far as we know, so once it is figured out, suddenly any and all stored genomes can be understood. This is the same with stored brain data. Even if we had it, we wouldn't yet be able to make use of it, but once we figure out how, that knowledge will apply to all stored brain data-sets, and suddenly we'll be able to do uploading. Of course, we still don't even know how to get the brain data in the first place, but it's being worked on right now, so there are three steps: 1) preserve the brain so that the information is not lost 2) extract the information (probably the hardest part) and store it (the easiest part) 3) use the stored information to recreate the mind As far as we know, so far we can do number 1. Probably. But if you know of extra necessary information that all the people involved in actually doing this don't, please let us know what it is. Several groups are working on number 2, and so far we probably have very little clue how to do number 3. That will involve figuring out the procedures that will apply to all uploads, so once we know that, uploading will become a practical proposition (assuming number 2 is cracked by then). -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Mon May 18 12:06:51 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 08:06:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: This is getting pretty lengthy and layered, my comments interspersed below. I started all my comments with CAPS, BUT I'M NOT YELLING!! It's just as a way to find them. Apologies, I don't think this will be easy to read but I can't figure out another way to respond to so many points :} ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:17:36 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 6:02 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John, it sort of feels like you're missing my points. 1) By "magic" I > did not mean impossible, I meant that we don't have technology to do the > things you proposed.* > Well of course we don't. Cryonics is a unproven technology and will remain that way until the day it becomes obsolete. The only way to prove it works is to bring a person back from being frozen, and if we have the ability to repair all that damage then we can certainly turn a sick person into a healthy person and so we won't need Cryonics anymore. ---> THAT IS SOME HUGE statement - I disagree bigly. I don't think it will be that hard to reanimate a person, once we figure out how to freexze them with minimal damage. This does not require nanotech, and I for one am not depending on it. When nanomedicine is developed, I am not sure it will also be capable of reconstructing information it doesn't have to start with - i.e., what is lost is lost. > *> Nanotech to repair tissue fracture is just an idea, we don't have the > technology, and we don;t know if and when it will emerge. * > We know that Nanotech needs no new scientific principles to work and we know that nature has developed a crude version of it called "life". --> MOSTLY AGREE, except I don't think biology is a crude version of nanotech, I think it is the real deal. Proteins for example are wonderful little nanomachines - they work reliably in a corrosive solvent, at pretty high temperatures, over several decades, under highly variable conditions, are anti-fragile to damage within bounds, and adaptable over time. Hopefully we will design as well. > > *I do not plan to reply on the apprarance of a technology that may > never exist.* > If you're going to bet on Cryonics then you've got no choice but to rely on, not new science but, new technology. We need smaller fingers. --> WELL, I'M TRYING NOT TO not to bet on it, but to work to improve it as I can. I'm working to design a non-toxic cryopreservant, and have designed (with a colleague) an at-home device to start cooling while you wait for your team to come get you for transport to Alcor or CI or wherever (*see the video on YouTube, under Re Rose*). As a scientific consultant, I devised a method to cryogenically store corn pollen with low fracture rates (I know, it's not people) for more than a year at higher than L-CO2 temps. I have a few other little things going too. So, I'm trying very hard not to *bet* !!!! > > *I think forms of nanotech repair are clearly possible, but there will > most likely be limits in the prescision of placement of the atoms. And > repairs of fractures in, for example, the spinal cord will require good > precision.* > To have any hope of bringing somebody back we don't need good precision we need extraordinarily superb precision, and if repair technology is not good enough to fix a displacement caused by a simple fracture then it doesn't have a chance of repairing the other far more complex forms of damage caused by even the best freezing technology that exist today. Forget cracking, the important thing is to do everything you can to avoid chaotic turbulence when the tissue freezes because if that happens then very small changes in initial conditions could lead to huge changes in outcome and so you'll never figure out where things were before they were frozen, and ASC is the best method I know of to avoid turbulence at the micro scale. --> OK, WELL, I THINK "extraordinarily superb precision" is hard and depending on the scale nescessaty, may be impossible. So FAR better to avoid fracturing, which means developing non-dehydrating cryopreservants and higher-temperature storage, with a homogeneous cool-down. Thats should do it. > *Cheap it may be, but I believe storage at higher temps - as high as > feasible for cryopreservation - is what I think has better chances of > reanimation. No need for refrigeration, an enclosure can be designed with > liquid nitrogen that has a natural temperature gradient. The cooling will > still be passive, the same amount of LN2 will be required, but the vessel > will be much larger.* > It's simple and cheap to store a brain at -196C, you just put it in a big thermos and pore in some liquid nitrogen, but to evenly store it at -135C would be complex and expensive, you'd need all sorts of fans and heat exchangers and sensors and a computer network to manage it all, and that is a lot of places where a catastrophic failure could occur. I don't understand why you're so worried about fractures, things would be solid so there is no way the transition from -135C to -196C could be as a chaotic flow, it would be a simple displacement and thus be easy to figure out where things are suposed to go. To bring somebody back you're going to have to do a lot of things more complex than that. --> NOT MORE EXPENSIVE to store someone at temps higher than -196C if you design a passive storage tank properly. It will be VERY big, so it should be located in, I dunno, Comfort, Texas or Alaska or someplace else with a lot of inexpensive space. > *By what technology can ASC be used to replace a human brain?* > The information that ASC preserves can be used to replace a human brain in a number of different ways. Electronics would be the most obvious method, another possibility would be Drexler's atomic scale mechanical computers. You could even go old school and make another biological brain if you could find a reason for making use of such obsolete technology. I can't think of one. --> YEAH, I'VE responded to this - ASC is not going to preserve enough info! Sorry, its very nice and a pretty method, but its not right for our goals because its pretty lossy. >* I still prefer cryopreservation of original tissue* > The atoms in your brain get recycled every few months and if you've seen one carbon atom you've seen them all, so exactly what is so original about that "original tissue"? ---> THE HIERARCHICAL INFORMATION is not in the atomic identy or geometry, so this is not a question. Replace all the atoms one by one you wish-as biology already does!! *> 4) I don't think my atoms differ from your atoms. I don;t even think the > atoms are important. I think my system and the information in the > arrangement of my system is of surpeme importance,* > I most certainly agree, in fact preserving that information is the only thing that is important. --> YAY! AGREED. > *and I am not sure that can be copied, by nanotech or any other methods. > Maybe it can. I am saying I do not know for sure* > When it comes to Cryonics there is a lot we don't know for sure, so we just do the best we can, and currently as proven by a electron microscope, the best way to preserve brain information for the long term is ASC. Is it good enough to bring somebody back if we had Nanotech? I hope so but I'm not sure. > *> Each neuron in a working brain has between 10-10,000 dendrites, each > dendrite has between 10-10,000 dendritic spines, a large percentage of > which are dynamically remodelling. The connetions of each neuron (and there > are 1000 types of neurons in the human brain) travel all over the brain, > informing neurons near and far, in networks the pathways and correlations > of which we do not know. Thats where the information lies.* > I know that's where the information lies, and the best way to preserve that information with the least amount of distortion is through ASC. --> WHY DO YOU make that assertion? I consistently disagree. We know that for a fact because it produces the best Electron Microscope pictures. --> NOT ENOUGH And dendritic spines are absolutely ENORMOUS compared to atoms, and the very definition of Nanotechnology is the control of matter at the atomic level. If Nanotechnology is impossible then Cryonics doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever working, but I don't see how that could be the case. ---> OF COURSE NANOTECH is not impossible...as I said above. I mean how do you think all those dendritic spines came into existence in the first place? Through nature's own crude form of nanotechnology that's how. And what random mutation and natural selection can do a intelligent designer, aka people and computers, can do better. * > And I didn;t even mention the chemical (neurontransmitter, ionic > concentrations) information.* > That's just more atoms in various positions. --> NOPE. *> Recovery of a system like this is a daunting task. * > --> IT CERTAINLY is! That's why we can't do it right now. > *> Save your original brain. * > OK let's save it as best we can. ASC would save your brain, not with zero distortion, but with the least amount of distortion currently known. The best we can do is the best we can do so let's just hope it's good enough. --> ASC IS LOSSY, just cryogenically preserve your brain. It could be sooo easy. > *I say ASC is complete brain desctruction. The information may or may > not be saved - we don;t yet know where the information is,* > the information may or may not be saved, maybe chaotic motion sets in during freezing and even ASC can't preserve enough vital information to bring you back, but if ASC isn't good enough then Alcor's current method certainly isn't good enough either because we know for a fact from electron microscope pictures that ASC does a better job at preserving information with less distortion. ---> AS FOR CHAOTIC turbilence damaging cells, clearly Nature has solved this problem, as multiple organisims freeze solid and come back fine. Increasing viscosity dampens such turbulence, anyway, which is nice. > > *you can have raw data, like back in 2000 when we had the human genome. > remember that? There were coffee table bvooks with the sequence printed > out. But the sequence alone - raw data - was meaningless. We are still > learning, 20 years later, how to interpret it. By no means can that data be > used to reconstruct a human *unless* you have tons of other information.* > If you want to preserve the information on what makes you be you then ASC is the way to go. --> NICE TRY BUT NO, its not the way to go. Its the worst thing you can do to your data. And you don't have to understand all the intricacies of the human genome to xerox a coffee table book containing it, a child could do it. And you don't have to have deep thoughts or a poetic soul to spell check a book of poetry, you just need to know how to spell. *8) YES I WOULD CARE!! That's my whole point! A copy is not and can never > be you because "you" are a whole being, an agent - not fully described by > information in your brain alone. A copy is a copy and when placed in > another body, you are not in it.* > I'm sorry Rose but that objection just makes no sense. Atoms are constantly shifting into and out of your body but that makes no difference because atoms don't have our names scratched on them. And unless you were specifically told you'd have no way of even knowing if any additional copies of you had been made. In fact in this context I don't even know what "original" and "copy" mean. Are you the original Rose or was that the Rose of one year ago? What about the Rose of 2 years ago, or 3, they all have different atoms and some have longer memories than others. --> HOPEFULLY BY NOW, with all the ways I have said the same thing, you can see the sense in what I say. By no means do you need to agree, but what I say has sense. --> THE AGENT that is my copy may not know it is a copy if the body match is perfect (doubtful). But that is not the point. YOU will not be there. Re-read my coffee and scone analogy, and tell me how in the world you imagine you will be in the copied agent when I terminate you (with your permission, of course). By what process will that transfer occur? It won't. Plus it violates the rights of your copy. He won't want to stop existing. So now you're being mean, on top of everything else. So mean. Oh, John, why? > *> If someone makes a copy of you while you sleep (or at any time earlier) > and puts it in another body, and then kills you - you are dead.* > What if I gave you proof that is exactly what happened to you last night, would you now feel dead? What if I gave you proof that happened every time you went to sleep since you were born? Suppose every hour your body was destroyed and instantly replaced by an exact copy, now let's do the replacement every minute and then every second and then every nanosecond. Through it all you notice nothing unusual and just go on and live your life. --> WHAT IF INDEED. Although intriguing stuidies have been done with consciouness and anesthesia (see Prof S. Greenfield's work), those are just conjectures. You can't prove it happens when I go to sleep, because it is not a fact, but a hypothesis. More debate is available re: anesthesia, and also the destructuon of the thalamus. But in any case, in those examples, you reanmiate in the same body. Which is what I'm saying is OK!! > > *You will have no access to the mind of the copy.* > If you are the copy then you have the exact same access to her past memories that she has, both will remember being Rose yesterday, but the two of you will have different futures, you will have diverged because from the instant of copying onward the 2 individuals will be in different places and be seeing different things and be forming different memories. --> THAT MIND WILL be in a totally different environment, with a huge amount of missing information, and that new agent is not and will never be you. It will be its own, separate agent. Not you. --Regina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 18 12:29:18 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 08:29:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 7:17 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Well, yes, a full genome sequence is meaningful in context, but useless > without tools to understand the hierarchical tiers of information in it,* > No it is not! Even if I had no understanding whatsoever of how it worked a full genomic sequence is sufficient for me to make a twin of you, granted a twin of you is not you but it's not useless either. And if the genomic information was augmented with your brain connectome information then I could make another you even if I didn't understand why all the intricate details of your genome or your connectome fit together and had to be the way they are for you to be you. I don't need to know why I just need to know how. I don't need to understand a book to Xerox a book. > *> unavailable information from the genome, by the way - and other > peculiaritiies of earthly biological evolutionary strategies, like > essential metals and other external nutrients,* > Hydrogen carbon and Iron are just atoms, the difference between life and death is just a matter of how those atoms are orientated . *> And then there are epigenetic marks,* > Just more atoms in certain orientations. *> Without all the additional external information that is not present, > plus knowledge of coding sequences, delineation of exons and introns, > control sequences, error-correction mechanisims, etc, the organism simply > cannot be reconstructed. * > To duplicate the organism you'd have to know what those things were but you would not have to know why they had to be that way, you'd only have to know that they did. And to duplicate what makes you be you, your memory intellect and consciousness, it would be unnecessary to duplicate the entire organism. Most of what a brain neuron does is unrelated to brain function, it's just basic metabolism that every cell on earth needs to do just to stay alive that is no different from what goes on in a cell in your big toe or in the cell of an earthworm. > *My contention (I state again) is that the neural copies we are talking > about likewise do not contain all the information necessary to recreate the > person. * > But you seem to concede that it would be enough information to convince an outside observer that the copy was you, it would even be enough to convince the copy that she was you, but for some vague unspecified reason you claim that would not be good enough. You even say information on the momentum and position of every atom in your body (including those in your big toe) would not be enough information. When pressed to explain where that missing information resides every example you give without exception can always be boiled down to just more atoms in various positions with various momentums. Although you haven't used the word it sounds to me like the thing you believe can't be duplicated and contains unobtainable information is the soul, but I don't believe in the soul or any other form of vitalism. > > *The smallest dendritic spines and many of the mid sized ones are not > readable, and may be damaged due to their size* > I don't know if the smallest dendritic spines are important but if they are then you'd want to use ASC (aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation) because it preserves them with less distortion than the method Alcor currently uses as has been proven by pictures taken with electron microscopes. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 18 13:48:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 06:48:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003501d62d1b$1463a590$3d2af0b0$@rainier66.com> Re Rose, your posts are always so informative and interesting. Thanks for being here with us. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 5:07 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Re Rose Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data This is getting pretty lengthy and layered, my comments interspersed below. I started all my comments with CAPS, BUT I'M NOT YELLING!! It's just as a way to find them. Apologies, I don't think this will be easy to read but I can't figure out another way to respond to so many points :} ------------------------------ Message: 4? --> THAT MIND WILL be in a totally different environment, with a huge amount of missing information, and that new agent is not and will never be you. It will be its own, separate agent. Not you. --Regina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Mon May 18 15:01:08 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 10:01:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Making a GOOGOL:1 Reduction with Lego Gears Message-ID: John K Clark wrote: > Making a GOOGOL:1 Reduction with Lego Gears > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXK4e4uqXY Really cool, John. Makes me want to rush out and buy a set of Legos. From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 18 17:59:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 13:59:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:10 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Cryonics is a unproven technology and will remain that way until the day >> it becomes obsolete. The only way to prove it works is to bring a person >> back from being frozen, and if we have the ability to repair all that >> damage then we can certainly turn a sick person into a healthy person >> and so we won't need Cryonics anymore. > > > --->* THAT IS SOME HUGE statement* > Huge is the only sort of statements that I make because I figure everybody is entitled to my opinion. > *I disagree bigly. I don't think it will be that hard to reanimate a > person, once we figure out how to freexze them with minimal damage. This > does not require nanotech,* > The minimum freezing damage possible is still an enormous amount of damage, with the method Alcor currently uses the brain shrinks considerably due to dehydration for heaven's sake, and the shrinking is not symmetrical. I hope the damage just distorts the information and doesn't erase it, and I think that's probably the case, but it's going to require Nanotechnology not only to obtain all that detailed distorted information but you're also going to need Nanotechnology to make the MASSIVE amounts of calculations needed to process it so it can be un-distorted and repaired. It was only after I read Drexler's book and he convinced me that Nanotechnology was possible that I became interested in Cryonics. Before that book I thought Cryonics was silly, after it I thought it was worth placing a $80,000 bet on it. Without Nanotechnology existing on the reviving end I can't see any way of it working. > >> We know that Nanotech needs no new scientific principles to work and we know >> that nature has developed a crude version of it called "life". > > > > *MOSTLY AGREE, except I don't think biology is a crude version of > nanotech, I think it is the real deal. Proteins for example are wonderful > little nanomachines* > I disagree, I think proteins are pretty crappy nanomachines, they can't build anything at all with most of the elements in the periodic table, and even for the element they're most comfortable with, carbon, they can't even make something as simple as a cubic lattice, aka a diamond. The limitations of life should not be a surprise because Evolution has many serious flaws that are inherent in its very nature. Evolution is a cruel and rather ridiculous process but until it managed to come up with brains, after screwing around for about 3 billion years, it was the only way complex objects could get made. >>If you're going to bet on Cryonics then you've got no choice but to rely on, >> not new science but, new technology. We need smaller fingers. > > > -->* WELL, I'M TRYING NOT TO not to bet on it, but to work to improve it > as I can. I'm working to design a non-toxic cryopreservant,* > Then I salute you! I mean it, Cryonics needs all the improvement it can get from this end. But we're still going to need Nanotechnology at the future reviving end. > --> *OK, WELL, I THINK "extraordinarily superb precision" is hard* > I know extraordinarily superb precision is hard, that's why we don't have it right now, and that's the only reason why today people still get old, get sick, and die. > *> and depending on the scale nescessaty, may be impossible.* > If Nanotechnology is impossible then so is Cryonics. But I don't see why something that doesn't violate any physical principle we know today and doesn't need any new physical principle unknown to us today should be impossible. Difficult yes, impossible no. > --> NOT MORE EXPENSIVE to store someone at temps higher than -196C if you > design a passive storage tank properly. It will be VERY big, > I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind but if it's going to be VERY big it's probably going to be VERY expensive too, and all to fix a problem that is not very important. I think people concentrate on a trivial form of damage like fracturing because they know how to fix it even if it's a very expensive and impractical way, but they ignore the far more serious problem of uneven brain shrinking ( the volume within neurons including axons and dendrites declines by around 70%) because they don't know how to fix it. Well actually that's not true they do know how to fix it, Aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation would fix it, but for reasons never made clear to me they don't like ASC. *> ASC is not going to preserve enough info! Sorry, its very nice and a > pretty method, but its not right for our goals because its pretty lossy.* Electron microscopes don't lie, if ASC is lossy the existing method is much more lossy. > >> The atoms in your brain get recycled every few months and if you've >> seen one carbon atom you've seen them all, so exactly what is so >> original about that "original tissue"? > > > ---> *THE HIERARCHICAL INFORMATION is not in the atomic identy or > geometry, so this is not a question. Replace all the atoms one by one you > wish-as biology already does!!* > I don't know what you mean by "hierarchical information". And what difference does it make if all the atoms in your body are replaced every 6 months or every 6 seconds or every 6 nanoseconds if atoms are generic? >> I know that's where the information lies, and the best way to preserve >> that information with the least amount of distortion is through ASC. > > > *--> WHY DO YOU make that assertion?* > Because I believe my eyes when I look at pictures made with very high power microscopes. >> That's just more atoms in various positions. > > > -->* NOPE.* > I'm sorry but that is not a satisfactory response. Please specify the missing information that is not encoded in a atoms position or momentum and explain why Alcor's current method preserves that information better than ASC can despite what microscopes show > > ---> *AS FOR CHAOTIC turbilence damaging cells, clearly Nature has solved > this problem, as multiple organisims freeze solid and come back fine.* > No macroscopic creature can freeze solid and live, they all retain a small amount of liquid water and their metabolism does not stop entirely, also their body temperature is much higher than liquid nitrogen or even of dry ice, and that's much too hot for long term storage. Some microscopic organisms like tardigrades can freeze solid because they are so small they can be frozen and thus fixed in place almost instantly and there is not enough time for chaotic turbulence to push things far out of place. But there is no way you could evenly freeze something as large as a human brain anywhere near that fast. --> *HOPEFULLY BY NOW, with all the ways I have said the same thing, you > can see the sense in what I say. By no means do you need to agree, but > what I say has sense.* > I'm not trying to be difficult but I don't think you've made a coherent logical argument. You keep saying ASC distorts information more than Alcor's method but you have nothing to rebut electron microscope pictures that say the opposite. --*> THE AGENT that is my copy may not know it is a copy if the body match > is perfect (doubtful). But that is not the point. YOU will not be there. > Re-read my coffee and scone analogy, and tell me how in the world you > imagine you will be in the copied agent when I terminate you* > You ask me if I want a cookie and then immediately blast me apart, even my molecules don't survive and have been torn into individual atoms. After a thousand years you take entirely different atoms of hydrogen oxygen carbon and nitrogen and arrange them so so they have the same position and momentum they had before and I'll say "yes please I'd love a cookie they look good", and if you didn't tell me a thousand years had passed I'd have no way of knowing because I vividly remember being the person that was asked if he wanted a cookie, and that was only a few seconds ago, at least according to my subjective time. * > it violates the rights of your copy. He won't want to stop existing.* > Obviously if I don't want to stop existing then my copy won't either. And if I had a copy I wouldn't what him mistreated and I know he feels the same way because for all I know I'm the copy and was made 2 minutes ago and the other guy is the original. >> If you are the copy then you have the exact same access to her past >> memories that she has, both will remember being Rose yesterday, but the >> two of you will have different futures, you will have diverged because >> from the instant of copying onward the 2 individuals will be in >> different places and >> be seeing different things and be forming different memories. > > > -->* THAT MIND WILL be in a totally different environment,* > Both the original and the copy remember being in the exact same environment yesterday and both are in the exact same environment today. So what's different? > > *with a huge amount of missing information,* > Missing information that you can't quantify except to say it doesn't involve atomic position or momentum. It's starting to sound like religious type stuff to me. > *and that new agent is not and will never be you. t will be its own, > separate agent. Not you. * > Then maybe I died last night and I am not me, I just think I'm me; but if so I don't care, thinking I'm me is good enough for me. Stay healthy John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Mon May 18 18:26:08 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 14:26:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Um.....nope. Confusion or uncertainty of locality is not the same as being in the other agent body. You're still you, just a bit disoriented. Regina Message: 2 Date: Sun, 17 May 2020 19:22:15 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 4:54 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: On 17/05/2020 21:23, Darin Sunley wrote: > > > Put another way, there is a deeply meaningful difference between "me" >> > and "a copy of me". We have strongly differing preferences as to whose >> > key opens the locks to my house, and whose bank account "my" employer >> > deposits "my" paycheque into. > > > > You are simply talking about two versions of 'me'. 'Me1' and 'Me2'. In > a > situation where there are two of you, and only one set of belongings, of > course there would be a conflict. This has nothing to do with the > argument about whether a 'copy of you' is 'you' or not. > You and an exact copy of you are facing each other an equal distance from the center of a symmetrical room. I have a switch and tell you that when I throw it you will instantly exchange positions. When I do you would notice no difference, you could not even determine if I was telling the truth; the switch might have been connected to nothing, or maybe not, but either way it makes no difference to you#1 or to you#2. And if it makes no difference it would be pointless to pretend that there are 2 different yous. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Mon May 18 18:41:40 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 14:41:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: John you missed the entire point of my description of deconvoluting the information within the DNA sequence without the framework of existing biochemical knowledge. You absolutely cannot make a twin of anything from its genome without other biochemical information. It's a system and you need external information to attempt to instantiate the genome. You seem to think 100% of the information of a biological system is contained in the 3D array of its atomic positions, like a huge .pdb file. Not so. Even for computational chemists the .pdb (atom position file) is nowhere near enough. You need a force field, you need dynamics, you need solvent .... you need the system. And that's just for molecules. You keep reforming the same objections to my statements but leaving out the reasons I've cited for my objection to your objections. The reasons are still there whether you incorporate them or not, tho'. Also, I think small dendritic spines are the least of what will be missing. Regina ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 08:29:18 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 7:17 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Well, yes, a full genome sequence is meaningful in context, but useless > without tools to understand the hierarchical tiers of information in it,* > No it is not! Even if I had no understanding whatsoever of how it worked a full genomic sequence is sufficient for me to make a twin of you, granted a twin of you is not you but it's not useless either. And if the genomic information was augmented with your brain connectome information then I could make another you even if I didn't understand why all the intricate details of your genome or your connectome fit together and had to be the way they are for you to be you. I don't need to know why I just need to know how. I don't need to understand a book to Xerox a book. > *> unavailable information from the genome, by the way - and other > peculiaritiies of earthly biological evolutionary strategies, like > essential metals and other external nutrients,* > Hydrogen carbon and Iron are just atoms, the difference between life and death is just a matter of how those atoms are orientated . *> And then there are epigenetic marks,* > Just more atoms in certain orientations. *> Without all the additional external information that is not present, > plus knowledge of coding sequences, delineation of exons and introns, > control sequences, error-correction mechanisims, etc, the organism simply > cannot be reconstructed. * > To duplicate the organism you'd have to know what those things were but you would not have to know why they had to be that way, you'd only have to know that they did. And to duplicate what makes you be you, your memory intellect and consciousness, it would be unnecessary to duplicate the entire organism. Most of what a brain neuron does is unrelated to brain function, it's just basic metabolism that every cell on earth needs to do just to stay alive that is no different from what goes on in a cell in your big toe or in the cell of an earthworm. > *My contention (I state again) is that the neural copies we are talking > about likewise do not contain all the information necessary to recreate the > person. * > But you seem to concede that it would be enough information to convince an outside observer that the copy was you, it would even be enough to convince the copy that she was you, but for some vague unspecified reason you claim that would not be good enough. You even say information on the momentum and position of every atom in your body (including those in your big toe) would not be enough information. When pressed to explain where that missing information resides every example you give without exception can always be boiled down to just more atoms in various positions with various momentums. Although you haven't used the word it sounds to me like the thing you believe can't be duplicated and contains unobtainable information is the soul, but I don't believe in the soul or any other form of vitalism. > > *The smallest dendritic spines and many of the mid sized ones are not > readable, and may be damaged due to their size* > I don't know if the smallest dendritic spines are important but if they are then you'd want to use ASC (aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation) because it preserves them with less distortion than the method Alcor currently uses as has been proven by pictures taken with electron microscopes. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 18 20:31:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 16:31:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 2:44 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > You absolutely cannot make a twin of anything from its genome without > other biochemical information.* > I'm not sure what other biochemical information you're talking about but whatever it is it can certainly is encoded in the 3D array of atoms inside a sperm and a egg. > *You need a force field, * I presume you mean a electrical field. but that is determined by charges, and if you know where the molecules are then you know where the positive and negative ends of them are. > *you need dynamics, * The momentum of atoms. > *you need solvent * Water is the solvent life uses, and it doesn't take much information to say that. And I am unaware of any solvent not made of atoms. > *You keep reforming the same objections to my statements* > That's because you keep saying there is a huge amount of mysterious ethereal information that is missing, but when pushed it always comes back to atoms and their positions and momentums. Always. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 18 21:08:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 17:08:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 2:29 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Um.....nope. Confusion or uncertainty of locality is not the same as > being in the other agent body. You're still you, just a bit disoriented. * > Speaking of disorientation, about a decade ago I had a personal problem of that nature and wrote to the list about it asking for advice, this is what I said: == A month ago I finished my matter duplicating machine. It can find the position and velocity of every atom in a human being to the limit imposed by Heisenberg's law. It can then used this information to construct a copy of the person and it does it all in a fraction of a second and without harming the original in any way. You may be surprised that I was able to build such a complicated machine, but you wouldn't be if you knew how good I am with my hands. The birdhouse I made is simply lovely and I have all the latest tools from Sears. I was a little nervous but last week I decided to test the machine by duplicating myself. I walked into the chamber, it filled with smoke (damn those old radio shack capacitors) there was a flash of light, and then 3 feet to my left was a man who looked exactly like me. It was at that instant that the full realization of the terrible thing I did hit me. I yelled "This is monstrous, there can only be one of me!", the other guy yelled exactly the same thing. I thought he was trying to mock me, so I reached for my 44 magnum that I always carry with me (I wonder why people think I'm strange) and pointed it at my double. I noted with alarm that my double also had a gun and he was pointing it at me. I shouted "You don't have the guts to pull the trigger, but I do!". Again he mimicked my words and did so in perfect synchronization, this made me even more angry and I pulled the trigger, he did too. My gun went off but due to a random quantum fluctuation his gun jammed. I buried him in my backyard. Now after time has passed my anger has cooled and I can think more clearly I've had some pangs of conscious about killing a living creature, but that's not what really torments me. How do I know I'm not the copy? I feel exactly the same as before, but would a copy feel different? Actually there is a way to be certain, I have a old VHS video tape of the entire experiment. My memory is that the copy first appeared 3 feet to my LEFT, if the tape shows the original walking into the chamber and the copy materializing 3 feet to his RIGHT, then I would know that I am the copy. But I'm afraid to look at the tape, should I be? If I found out I was the copy what should I do? I suppose I should mourn the death of John K Clark, but how can I, I'm not dead. If I am the copy would that mean that I have no real past and my life is meaningless? Is it important, or should I just burn the tape and forget all about it? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue May 19 05:26:49 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 05:26:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Dystopian Fiction References: <77173086.908652.1589866009052.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77173086.908652.1589866009052@mail.yahoo.com> Are potential dystopian futures better off being discussed and/or written about or simply kept quiet to oneself? To what extent does dystopian science fiction serve as a constructive warning to society as opposed to a how-to guide for those corruptible souls that seek power at all costs? To what extent did Orwell contribute to the creation of the modern surveillance state? If one saw how the present situation could be made far worse and even down right horrifying should one discuss it or write about it? Or would that make those horrible things more likely to come to pass by giving bad actors ideas they might not have otherwise had? Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Tue May 19 05:40:32 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 22:40:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dystopian Fiction In-Reply-To: <77173086.908652.1589866009052@mail.yahoo.com> References: <77173086.908652.1589866009052.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <77173086.908652.1589866009052@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don't worry about inspiring bad actors. Either someone else already has, or someone else will. Of course, it's one thing to complain about situations; dystopian fiction can be seen as a form of such complaint. It's another to suggest solutions - even in fiction, that someone might actually implement (minding the details, but at least they have an idea of what to do). On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 10:29 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Are potential dystopian futures better off being discussed and/or written > about or simply kept quiet to oneself? To what extent does dystopian > science fiction serve as a constructive warning to society as opposed to a > how-to guide for those corruptible souls that seek power at all costs? To > what extent did Orwell contribute to the creation of the modern > surveillance state? If one saw how the present situation could be made far > worse and even down right horrifying should one discuss it or write about > it? Or would that make those horrible things more likely to come to pass by > giving bad actors ideas they might not have otherwise had? > > Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 19 09:44:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 05:44:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Dystopian Fiction In-Reply-To: <77173086.908652.1589866009052@mail.yahoo.com> References: <77173086.908652.1589866009052.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <77173086.908652.1589866009052@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 1:30 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> To what extent did Orwell contribute to the creation of the modern > surveillance state? * I think 1984 is one reason 1984 didn't turn out to be like 1984. Except in North Korea, and Kim Il-sung didn't need Orwell's help, like all dictators he had no trouble in coming up with sinister ideas on his own. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 19 12:27:53 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 05:27:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Dystopian Fiction In-Reply-To: References: <77173086.908652.1589866009052.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <77173086.908652.1589866009052@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003801d62dd8$ebc59a30$c350ce90$@rainier66.com> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 1:30 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat > wrote: > To what extent did Orwell contribute to the creation of the modern surveillance state? Dystopian fiction certainly has its place. I would hope Orwell?s 1984 should be required reading in high school literature courses. Considering what we have seen playing out in the states with our FBI, there we see the danger of one-way transparency. When it is made into reciprocal transparency, those who enjoyed living behind the one-way mirror cry foul. Watch closely Avant. What is happening right now is very important. Watch over the next few weeks. Long live reciprocal transparency. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 19 15:46:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 10:46:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: "In the face of life the goal is composure." Jacques Barzun bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 19 15:54:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 08:54:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003801d62df5$cf8844e0$6e98cea0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] quote of the day "In the face of life the goal is composure." Jacques Barzun bill w Sure but that is merely a derivative of the observed phenomenon: after life, the goal is decomposure. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Wed May 20 10:55:35 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 06:55:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Hiya Ben - It was a rhetorical question, I'm pointing out as a thought experiment that a "perfect" copy of you in a "perfect" agent copy of your body would believe it is you. In fact, IMHO, there would be no way to prove to this new agent (i.e., person) that it is *not *you. The only agent in the universe who would know that the copy was not you would be....wait for it....YOU. Every other person in the world will think it is you (if it is a perfect copy - which I have tried to show in my previous grillion posts is likely impossible - i.e., no perfect copy can be made). Of course a copy of you can be someone other than you. It is. It is a new person. It is not you, even if it thinks it is you. And, you and only can know it's not you. Go back to my coffee-and-scone thought experiment. Can I shoot you? If you belive I can because you will magically be "in" the copy - tell me how, please. And where does the consciousness in the copy go? You'll be being just as mean as I accused John of being (LOL). You can't just take over another person's body! That's just rude. The copy becomes its own agent as soon as its online. You can't access it. Death does not allow a magical transmogrification into agents you wish to occupy. Oh, and the symmetrical room problem is a red herring. It only works by confusion. You always gonna be you. -Regina ----------------------------- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 21:17:07 +0100 From: Ben To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683 at zaiboc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 15/05/2020 17:28, Re Rose wrote: > My biggest concern is that we might discover a technology that is > "good enough" to fool people. It seems plausible that a copy, or a > really good ASC preserved brain, should hold the data we need. That, > IMHO, is a dangerous idea, because people will convince themselves > that's all you need to preserve yourself. So the goal - to reanimate > and continue to live your life - will not be met but YOU are not > around to advocate for yourself! Your copy will be very happy to be > reanimated, though, just as a stranger or a sibling might be. You are > not your sibling, or a stranger, though, and you will not be there. "How would a copy of you know it's not you? Hm. After all, it would be a It being with your memories and experiences and and I believe it will believe it is you" That sounds like a nonsensical question to me. How could you tell that a copy of 'Imagine' by John Lennon was not in fact 'Imagine' by John Lennon? After all, it would have all the same notes in the same order, and it would sound just like 'Imagine' by John Lennon. You could argue that a piece of music is not the same as a mind, but then you'd be arguing for something special, above and beyond information, that constitutes a mind, and you've already said that you don't claim that. I recognise that minds are not fixed patterns, whereas a specific piece of music is, but that doesn't affect the argument. A dynamic pattern of information just contains extra information that describes how the pattern changes under particular circumstances. In essence, this is no different to a static pattern. It's all information. I can't really get my head around this concept that an identical copy (a good-enough copy, really) of you isn't really 'you'. Who would it be? it can't be Napoleon, it can't be Genghis Khan, it can only be you. Saying "but it's only a copy!" is meaningless. Yes, it's a copy. A copy of you. Ergo, you. It can't be anyone else, can it. I wrote a post about the amoeba splitting, but my computer crashed and I lost it. Basically, I said the amoeba is just like a neuron, and if one of your neurons underwent the same fission process, you wouldn't be able to tell any difference between the two daughter neurons, and if you destroyed one, it wouldn't matter one bit which one was destroyed (assuming the same connections to other neurons were preserved). Extrapolate this to all the neurons in your brain, and you effectively have a copy of your brain which is identical to the original. Do you really think this would result in a person that was 'not you'? Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Wed May 20 12:39:29 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 08:39:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: OK, I'm going to do the interspersed-with-NON-YELLING-CAPS-thing again, below. Are people really reading this? It's confusing even me!! LOL happy day to all~~ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 13:59:01 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:10 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Cryonics is a unproven technology and will remain that way until the day it becomes obsolete. The only way to prove it works is to bring a person back from being frozen, and if we have the ability to repair all that damage then we can certainly turn a sick person into a healthy person and so we won't need Cryonics anymore. > > --> WE CAN CERTAINLY creep up from all sides on on proofs-of-concept for cryonics, as we researchers have and will continue to do over the years. Example, natural freezing of increasingly larger and more complex creatures (water bears, c.elegans, bugs, bees, frogs), observation of mammals (cats, dogs, skiers and other humans) recovering from hours of near-freezing with *no damage*, use of deep cooling to do complex surgery. ----> THEN THERE there is freezing and recovery of various organs with no damage. We already know how to do this for certain tissues and part of organs, and it has been highly sucessful. As well as for plants. And then there are the disturbing but useful experiments done to switch or add heads to mammals (dogs, cats, chimpanzees). Hopefully this will be followed soon by Canavero carrying out a sucessful head transplant (and if it is sucessful imagine what we will learn about a brain controlling a new agent body! Importantly if it works, does it cause a mental breakdown - or not). --> THIS ALL adds up to indicate that cryonic preservation and reanimation of a more complex organisim such as a human can be acheived, something I am sure eveyone in this list already agrees with to some degree. My point here is a demonstration that I do not agree that cryonics is an entirely unproven technology :) Huge is the only sort of statements that I make because I figure everybody is entitled to my opinion. ---> LOL!! > *I disagree bigly. I don't think it will be that hard to reanimate a > person, once we figure out how to freexze them with minimal damage. This does not require nanotech,* > The minimum freezing damage possible is still an enormous amount of damage, ---> NOT NECESSARILY, and the goal is to minimze the damage done by current methods. with the method Alcor currently uses the brain shrinks considerably due to dehydration for heaven's sake, and the shrinking is not symmetrical. I hope the damage just distorts the information and doesn't erase it, and I think that's probably the case, --> HM, I THINK YOUR choice of words indicates that you think of neural information storage as being similar to the way a computer encodes data. Don't do that. Very different. In any case, I believe the information physically coded in the brain (which is by no means all of the information necessary to recreate your consciouness) might be deranged in a variety of ways: via physical damage to neurons, via disruption of correlated pathways, via loss of electrical entrainment signalling mechanisims, among others. This is different from "distortion" or "erasure" of the data. is there but it's going to require Nanotechnology not only to obtain all that detailed distorted information but you're also going to need Nanotechnology to make the MASSIVE amounts of calculations needed to process it so it can be un-distorted and repaired. --> UNTIL WE KNOW A MECHANISIM FOR repair I think its premature to say cryonic reanimation will *require* nanotechnology. It might, and it might not. It was only after I read Drexler's book and he convinced me that Nanotechnology was possible that I became interested in Cryonics. Before that book I thought Cryonics was silly, after it I thought it was worth placing a $80,000 bet on it. Without Nanotechnology existing on the reviving end I can't see any way of it working. > >> We know that Nanotech needs no new scientific principles to work and we know that nature has developed a crude version of it called "life". > > > > *MOSTLY AGREE, except I don't think biology is a crude version of nanotech, I think it is the real deal. Proteins for example are wonderful little nanomachines* > I disagree, I think proteins are pretty crappy nanomachines, they can't build anything at all with most of the elements in the periodic table, and even for the element they're most comfortable with, carbon, they can't even make something as simple as a cubic lattice, aka a diamond. --> THIS IS A TERRIBLE objection! Biological proteins usually have no business using most of the elements in the periodic table. BUT when you look at extremeophiles, you see they posess many beautiful, unusual, and highly versatile proteins that handle all sorts of exotic and toxic metals and other heavier elements that are present in the ecological niche of those organisims. If a protein (or related) molecule needed to make a cubic lattice, it would certainly be capable of doing so as long as the reaction was thermodynamically feasible. The limitations of life should not be a surprise because Evolution has many serious flaws that are inherent in its very nature. Evolution is a cruel and rather ridiculous process but until it managed to come up with brains, after screwing around for about 3 billion years, it was the only way complex objects could get made. ---> EVOLUTION FINDS BRILLIANT SOLUTIONS yto many problems, and even evolutionary algorithims quickly lead to novel and adaptable solutions! Don't be mean to evolution. >>If you're going to bet on Cryonics then you've got no choice but to rely on, not new science but, new technology. We need smaller fingers. > > > -->* WELL, I'M TRYING NOT TO not to bet on it, but to work to improve it > as I can. I'm working to design a non-toxic cryopreservant,* > Then I salute you! I mean it, Cryonics needs all the improvement it can get from this end. But we're still going to need Nanotechnology at the future reviving end. --> THANK YOU! I don't agree we will necessarity need nanotech, but I do agree that it certainly would be a great tool. > --> *OK, WELL, I THINK "extraordinarily superb precision" is hard* I know extraordinarily superb precision is hard, that's why we don't have it right now, and that's the only reason why today people still get old, get sick, and die. --> NOT THE ACTUAL REASONS FOR AGING, if thats what you mean.... > *> and depending on the scale nescessaty, may be impossible.* > If Nanotechnology is impossible then so is Cryonics. But I don't see why something that doesn't violate any physical principle we know today and doesn't need any new physical principle unknown to us today should be impossible. Difficult yes, impossible no. ---> OK WAIT -- I'M NOT SAYING NANOTECH IS IMPOSSIBLE! I'm saying (again and again in grillions of ways) copying the information is impossible. Not at all due to physical limitations of nanotech, rather, due to the inerent characteristics of the system. > --> NOT MORE EXPENSIVE to store someone at temps higher than -196C if you design a passive storage tank properly. It will be VERY big, > I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind but if it's going to be VERY big it's probably going to be VERY expensive too, and all to fix a problem that is not very important. --> NO! NOT VERY expensive at all, and the problem of fracturing is huge - don't dismss that so easily. Obviate the fractures and cracking, and you're far closer to feasible reanimation. I think people concentrate on a trivial form of damage like fracturing because they know how to fix it even if it's a very expensive and impractical way, but they ignore the far more serious proble of uneven brain shrinking ( the volume within neurons including axons and dendrites declines by around 70%) because they don't know how to fix it. ---> WHO'S IGNORING THE DEHYDRATION issues? Not me. I have some ideas how to fix it, but they are untested and unfunded -- so far :) Well actually that's not true they do know how to fix it, Aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation would fix it, but for reasons never made clear to me they don't like ASC. ---> OMG HAVE I FAILED TO BE clear as to exactly why I think ASC is not a good method to address this??? You don't need to agree, by all means, but the reasons are clear!!! *> ASC is not going to preserve enough info! Sorry, its very nice and a pretty method, but its not right for our goals because its pretty lossy.* Electron microscopes don't lie, if ASC is lossy the existing method is much more lossy. ---> NO ITS NOT!!! I've said why in previous email, reallly, in quad-grillions of different ways. That's a lot of ways. > >> The atoms in your brain get recycled every few months and if you've seen one carbon atom you've seen them all, so exactly what is so original about that "original tissue"? --> THE HIERARCHICAL INFORMATION as I already said. It is not contained in the atomic positions. I am sure Prof. Stuart Kauffman described this way better than I ever could. His books are widely available. I'd start with the earlier ones. > > ---> *THE HIERARCHICAL INFORMATION is not in the atomic identy or geometry, so this is not a question. Replace all the atoms one by one you wish-as biology already does!!* > I don't know what you mean by "hierarchical information". And what difference does it make if all the atoms in your body are replaced every 6 months or every 6 seconds or every 6 nanoseconds if atoms are generic? --> YOU WILL HAVE TO LOOK THAT UP, no way can I explain system dynamics and all the other good stuff here. >> I know that's where the information lies, and the best way to preserve that information with the least amount of distortion is through ASC. --> IF YOU THINK ASC IS the best way, you do *NOT* know where the information lies. Sorry. For some of that background, there are lots of texts on neural coding. I also recommend reading papers by Prof William Bialik on entropy of information storage in neural systems, and the book by Jeff Hawkins, "On Consciouness". > > > *--> WHY DO YOU make that assertion?* > Because I believe my eyes when I look at pictures made with very high power microscopes. --> ALAS THAT IS not enough information!!! >> That's just more atoms in various positions. > > > -->* NOPE.* --> AGAIN -- NOPE!!! > I'm sorry but that is not a satisfactory response. Please specify the missing information that is not encoded in a atoms position or momentum and explain why Alcor's current method preserves that information better than ASC can despite what microscopes show --> You're asking me to provide an online compendium of knowledge and information I've synthesized over two decades or so -- in an email. Oh my. I cannot. You have to go read some stuff, my friend. > > ---> *AS FOR CHAOTIC turbilence damaging cells, clearly Nature has solved this problem, as multiple organisims freeze solid and come back fine.* No macroscopic creature can freeze solid and live, they all retain a small amount of liquid water and their metabolism does not stop entirely, also their body temperature is much higher than liquid nitrogen or even of dry ice, and that's much too hot for long term storage. Some microscopic organisms like tardigrades can freeze solid because they are so small they can be frozen and thus fixed in place almost instantly and there is not enough time for chaotic turbulence to push things far out of place. But there is no way you could evenly freeze something as large as a human brain anywhere near that fast. --> THIS IS NOT a problem I have observed or am particulary worried about. As I said in my last post, viscosity increses as temperature decreases. Of course, there will be some damage done by freezing. Our job is to minimze what we can. --> *HOPEFULLY BY NOW, with all the ways I have said the same thing, you can see the sense in what I say. By no means do you need to agree, but what I say has sense.* > I'm not trying to be difficult but I don't think you've made a coherent logical argument. You keep saying ASC distorts information more than Alcor's method but you have nothing to rebut electron microscope pictures that say the opposite. --> I HAVE GIVEN MANY DIFFERENT responses and reasons but you keep brushing them aside and asking the same questions over and over. Also, if you think the electron microscpe images capture all the necessary information - then you haven't been throughly reading any of my posts, starting from the first one. I'm taking lots of time to write them so please re-read them. Also, I'm sure you would be interested in reading the work of the people I've cited throughout my posts. I've only cited those whose work I think gives the best insight into these issues, their work is well worth reading. --*> THE AGENT that is my copy may not know it is a copy if the body match is perfect (doubtful). But that is not the point. YOU will not be there. Re-read my coffee and scone analogy, and tell me how in the world you imagine you will be in the copied agent when I terminate you* > You ask me if I want a cookie and then immediately blast me apart, even my molecules don't survive and have been torn into individual atoms. ---> ALRIGHT, FIRST OF ALL IT WAS A SCONE! I am far too refined to offer you a mere "cookie". And second, I blasted you apart with your permission. Why did you give it? Don't change your story now, John. After a thousand years you take entirely different atoms of hydrogen oxygen carbon and nitrogen and arrange them so so they have the same position and momentum they had before and I'll say "yes please I'd love a cookie they look good", and if you didn't tell me a thousand years had passed I'd have no way of knowing because I vividly remember being the person that was asked if he wanted a cookie, and that was only a few seconds ago, at least according to my subjective time. ---> THIS IS A NICE STORY, and I'm sure the *scone* will still be fresh after a thousand years because it was cryonicaly stored for you. But the position and momentum are *not not not* enough to recreate you, I cry again. And don't get me started on Heisenberg. He's not going to support your position-and-momentum thing in the least. Even that can't be done. * > it violates the rights of your copy. He won't want to stop existing.* > Obviously if I don't want to stop existing then my copy won't either. And if I had a copy I wouldn't what him mistreated and I know he feels the same way because for all I know I'm the copy and was made 2 minutes ago and the other guy is the original. --> YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOT the copy. The copy doesn't know. But you do. >> If you are the copy then you have the exact same access to her past memories that she has, both will remember being Rose yesterday, but the two of you will have different futures, you will have diverged because from the instant of copying onward the 2 individuals will be in different places and be seeing different things and be forming different memories. --> YES THE COPY will have a problem, thinking it is me. Poor copy. But I am still me -- and that, BTW, is Regina, not Rose. Rose is my copy, and she keeps thinking she's me, but I, Regina, have written these posts. If she posts anything here please know she doesn't always agree with me, so don't let that confuse you. She has her own mind. > > -->* THAT MIND WILL be in a totally different environment,* > Both the original and the copy remember being in the exact same environment yesterday and both are in the exact same environment today. So what's different? > > *with a huge amount of missing information,* > Missing information that you can't quantify except to say it doesn't involve atomic position or momentum. It's starting to sound like religious type stuff to me. ---> NO IT'S SCIENCE. > *and that new agent is not and will never be you. t will be its own, > separate agent. Not you. * > Then maybe I died last night and I am not me, I just think I'm me; but if so I don't care, thinking I'm me is good enough for me. --> BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH for! The copy will be happy to be you and eat scones with me, but you will still be dead. It really should not be good enough for you, if your wish is to be reanimated. Stay healthy --> Thx, you too! --Regina -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 20 12:49:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 05:49:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000501d62ea5$11975420$34c5fc60$@rainier66.com> Hi Rose, ja we are reading this. Why is it confusing? Your posts are filled with good stuff. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 5:39 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Re Rose Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data OK, I'm going to do the interspersed-with-NON-YELLING-CAPS-thing again, below. Are people really reading this? It's confusing even me!! LOL happy day to all~~ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 13:59:01 -0400 From: John Clark > To: ExI chat list < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:10 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Cryonics is a unproven technology and will remain that way until the day it becomes obsolete. The only way to prove it works is to bring a person back from being frozen, and if we have the ability to repair all that damage then we can certainly turn a sick person into a healthy person and so we won't need Cryonics anymore. > > --> WE CAN CERTAINLY creep up from all sides on on proofs-of-concept for cryonics, as we researchers have and will continue to do over the years. Example, natural freezing of increasingly larger and more complex creatures (water bears, c.elegans, bugs, bees, frogs), observation of mammals (cats, dogs, skiers and other humans) recovering from hours of near-freezing with *no damage*, use of deep cooling to do complex surgery. ----> THEN THERE there is freezing and recovery of various organs with no damage. We already know how to do this for certain tissues and part of organs, and it has been highly sucessful. As well as for plants. And then there are the disturbing but useful experiments done to switch or add heads to mammals (dogs, cats, chimpanzees). Hopefully this will be followed soon by Canavero carrying out a sucessful head transplant (and if it is sucessful imagine what we will learn about a brain controlling a new agent body! Importantly if it works, does it cause a mental breakdown - or not). --> THIS ALL adds up to indicate that cryonic preservation and reanimation of a more complex organisim such as a human can be acheived, something I am sure eveyone in this list already agrees with to some degree. My point here is a demonstration that I do not agree that cryonics is an entirely unproven technology :) Huge is the only sort of statements that I make because I figure everybody is entitled to my opinion. ---> LOL!! > *I disagree bigly. I don't think it will be that hard to reanimate a > person, once we figure out how to freexze them with minimal damage. This does not require nanotech,* > The minimum freezing damage possible is still an enormous amount of damage, ---> NOT NECESSARILY, and the goal is to minimze the damage done by current methods. with the method Alcor currently uses the brain shrinks considerably due to dehydration for heaven's sake, and the shrinking is not symmetrical. I hope the damage just distorts the information and doesn't erase it, and I think that's probably the case, --> HM, I THINK YOUR choice of words indicates that you think of neural information storage as being similar to the way a computer encodes data. Don't do that. Very different. In any case, I believe the information physically coded in the brain (which is by no means all of the information necessary to recreate your consciouness) might be deranged in a variety of ways: via physical damage to neurons, via disruption of correlated pathways, via loss of electrical entrainment signalling mechanisims, among others. This is different from "distortion" or "erasure" of the data. is there but it's going to require Nanotechnology not only to obtain all that detailed distorted information but you're also going to need Nanotechnology to make the MASSIVE amounts of calculations needed to process it so it can be un-distorted and repaired. --> UNTIL WE KNOW A MECHANISIM FOR repair I think its premature to say cryonic reanimation will *require* nanotechnology. It might, and it might not. It was only after I read Drexler's book and he convinced me that Nanotechnology was possible that I became interested in Cryonics. Before that book I thought Cryonics was silly, after it I thought it was worth placing a $80,000 bet on it. Without Nanotechnology existing on the reviving end I can't see any way of it working. > >> We know that Nanotech needs no new scientific principles to work and we know that nature has developed a crude version of it called "life". > > > > *MOSTLY AGREE, except I don't think biology is a crude version of nanotech, I think it is the real deal. Proteins for example are wonderful little nanomachines* > I disagree, I think proteins are pretty crappy nanomachines, they can't build anything at all with most of the elements in the periodic table, and even for the element they're most comfortable with, carbon, they can't even make something as simple as a cubic lattice, aka a diamond. --> THIS IS A TERRIBLE objection! Biological proteins usually have no business using most of the elements in the periodic table. BUT when you look at extremeophiles, you see they posess many beautiful, unusual, and highly versatile proteins that handle all sorts of exotic and toxic metals and other heavier elements that are present in the ecological niche of those organisims. If a protein (or related) molecule needed to make a cubic lattice, it would certainly be capable of doing so as long as the reaction was thermodynamically feasible. The limitations of life should not be a surprise because Evolution has many serious flaws that are inherent in its very nature. Evolution is a cruel and rather ridiculous process but until it managed to come up with brains, after screwing around for about 3 billion years, it was the only way complex objects could get made. ---> EVOLUTION FINDS BRILLIANT SOLUTIONS yto many problems, and even evolutionary algorithims quickly lead to novel and adaptable solutions! Don't be mean to evolution. >>If you're going to bet on Cryonics then you've got no choice but to rely on, not new science but, new technology. We need smaller fingers. > > > -->* WELL, I'M TRYING NOT TO not to bet on it, but to work to improve it > as I can. I'm working to design a non-toxic cryopreservant,* > Then I salute you! I mean it, Cryonics needs all the improvement it can get from this end. But we're still going to need Nanotechnology at the future reviving end. --> THANK YOU! I don't agree we will necessarity need nanotech, but I do agree that it certainly would be a great tool. > --> *OK, WELL, I THINK "extraordinarily superb precision" is hard* I know extraordinarily superb precision is hard, that's why we don't have it right now, and that's the only reason why today people still get old, get sick, and die. --> NOT THE ACTUAL REASONS FOR AGING, if thats what you mean.... > *> and depending on the scale nescessaty, may be impossible.* > If Nanotechnology is impossible then so is Cryonics. But I don't see why something that doesn't violate any physical principle we know today and doesn't need any new physical principle unknown to us today should be impossible. Difficult yes, impossible no. ---> OK WAIT -- I'M NOT SAYING NANOTECH IS IMPOSSIBLE! I'm saying (again and again in grillions of ways) copying the information is impossible. Not at all due to physical limitations of nanotech, rather, due to the inerent characteristics of the system. > --> NOT MORE EXPENSIVE to store someone at temps higher than -196C if you design a passive storage tank properly. It will be VERY big, > I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind but if it's going to be VERY big it's probably going to be VERY expensive too, and all to fix a problem that is not very important. --> NO! NOT VERY expensive at all, and the problem of fracturing is huge - don't dismss that so easily. Obviate the fractures and cracking, and you're far closer to feasible reanimation. I think people concentrate on a trivial form of damage like fracturing because they know how to fix it even if it's a very expensive and impractical way, but they ignore the far more serious proble of uneven brain shrinking ( the volume within neurons including axons and dendrites declines by around 70%) because they don't know how to fix it. ---> WHO'S IGNORING THE DEHYDRATION issues? Not me. I have some ideas how to fix it, but they are untested and unfunded -- so far :) Well actually that's not true they do know how to fix it, Aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation would fix it, but for reasons never made clear to me they don't like ASC. ---> OMG HAVE I FAILED TO BE clear as to exactly why I think ASC is not a good method to address this??? You don't need to agree, by all means, but the reasons are clear!!! *> ASC is not going to preserve enough info! Sorry, its very nice and a pretty method, but its not right for our goals because its pretty lossy.* Electron microscopes don't lie, if ASC is lossy the existing method is much more lossy. ---> NO ITS NOT!!! I've said why in previous email, reallly, in quad-grillions of different ways. That's a lot of ways. > >> The atoms in your brain get recycled every few months and if you've seen one carbon atom you've seen them all, so exactly what is so original about that "original tissue"? --> THE HIERARCHICAL INFORMATION as I already said. It is not contained in the atomic positions. I am sure Prof. Stuart Kauffman described this way better than I ever could. His books are widely available. I'd start with the earlier ones. > > ---> *THE HIERARCHICAL INFORMATION is not in the atomic identy or geometry, so this is not a question. Replace all the atoms one by one you wish-as biology already does!!* > I don't know what you mean by "hierarchical information". And what difference does it make if all the atoms in your body are replaced every 6 months or every 6 seconds or every 6 nanoseconds if atoms are generic? --> YOU WILL HAVE TO LOOK THAT UP, no way can I explain system dynamics and all the other good stuff here. >> I know that's where the information lies, and the best way to preserve that information with the least amount of distortion is through ASC. --> IF YOU THINK ASC IS the best way, you do *NOT* know where the information lies. Sorry. For some of that background, there are lots of texts on neural coding. I also recommend reading papers by Prof William Bialik on entropy of information storage in neural systems, and the book by Jeff Hawkins, "On Consciouness". > > > *--> WHY DO YOU make that assertion?* > Because I believe my eyes when I look at pictures made with very high power microscopes. --> ALAS THAT IS not enough information!!! >> That's just more atoms in various positions. > > > -->* NOPE.* --> AGAIN -- NOPE!!! > I'm sorry but that is not a satisfactory response. Please specify the missing information that is not encoded in a atoms position or momentum and explain why Alcor's current method preserves that information better than ASC can despite what microscopes show --> You're asking me to provide an online compendium of knowledge and information I've synthesized over two decades or so -- in an email. Oh my. I cannot. You have to go read some stuff, my friend. > > ---> *AS FOR CHAOTIC turbilence damaging cells, clearly Nature has solved this problem, as multiple organisims freeze solid and come back fine.* No macroscopic creature can freeze solid and live, they all retain a small amount of liquid water and their metabolism does not stop entirely, also their body temperature is much higher than liquid nitrogen or even of dry ice, and that's much too hot for long term storage. Some microscopic organisms like tardigrades can freeze solid because they are so small they can be frozen and thus fixed in place almost instantly and there is not enough time for chaotic turbulence to push things far out of place. But there is no way you could evenly freeze something as large as a human brain anywhere near that fast. --> THIS IS NOT a problem I have observed or am particulary worried about. As I said in my last post, viscosity increses as temperature decreases. Of course, there will be some damage done by freezing. Our job is to minimze what we can. --> *HOPEFULLY BY NOW, with all the ways I have said the same thing, you can see the sense in what I say. By no means do you need to agree, but what I say has sense.* > I'm not trying to be difficult but I don't think you've made a coherent logical argument. You keep saying ASC distorts information more than Alcor's method but you have nothing to rebut electron microscope pictures that say the opposite. --> I HAVE GIVEN MANY DIFFERENT responses and reasons but you keep brushing them aside and asking the same questions over and over. Also, if you think the electron microscpe images capture all the necessary information - then you haven't been throughly reading any of my posts, starting from the first one. I'm taking lots of time to write them so please re-read them. Also, I'm sure you would be interested in reading the work of the people I've cited throughout my posts. I've only cited those whose work I think gives the best insight into these issues, their work is well worth reading. --*> THE AGENT that is my copy may not know it is a copy if the body match is perfect (doubtful). But that is not the point. YOU will not be there. Re-read my coffee and scone analogy, and tell me how in the world you imagine you will be in the copied agent when I terminate you* > You ask me if I want a cookie and then immediately blast me apart, even my molecules don't survive and have been torn into individual atoms. ---> ALRIGHT, FIRST OF ALL IT WAS A SCONE! I am far too refined to offer you a mere "cookie". And second, I blasted you apart with your permission. Why did you give it? Don't change your story now, John. After a thousand years you take entirely different atoms of hydrogen oxygen carbon and nitrogen and arrange them so so they have the same position and momentum they had before and I'll say "yes please I'd love a cookie they look good", and if you didn't tell me a thousand years had passed I'd have no way of knowing because I vividly remember being the person that was asked if he wanted a cookie, and that was only a few seconds ago, at least according to my subjective time. ---> THIS IS A NICE STORY, and I'm sure the *scone* will still be fresh after a thousand years because it was cryonicaly stored for you. But the position and momentum are not not not enough to recreate you, I cry again. And don't get me started on Heisenberg. He's not going to support your position-and-momentum thing in the least. Even that can't be done. * > it violates the rights of your copy. He won't want to stop existing.* > Obviously if I don't want to stop existing then my copy won't either. And if I had a copy I wouldn't what him mistreated and I know he feels the same way because for all I know I'm the copy and was made 2 minutes ago and the other guy is the original. --> YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOT the copy. The copy doesn't know. But you do. >> If you are the copy then you have the exact same access to her past memories that she has, both will remember being Rose yesterday, but the two of you will have different futures, you will have diverged because from the instant of copying onward the 2 individuals will be in different places and be seeing different things and be forming different memories. --> YES THE COPY will have a problem, thinking it is me. Poor copy. But I am still me -- and that, BTW, is Regina, not Rose. Rose is my copy, and she keeps thinking she's me, but I, Regina, have written these posts. If she posts anything here please know she doesn't always agree with me, so don't let that confuse you. She has her own mind. > > -->* THAT MIND WILL be in a totally different environment,* > Both the original and the copy remember being in the exact same environment yesterday and both are in the exact same environment today. So what's different? > > *with a huge amount of missing information,* > Missing information that you can't quantify except to say it doesn't involve atomic position or momentum. It's starting to sound like religious type stuff to me. ---> NO IT'S SCIENCE. > *and that new agent is not and will never be you. t will be its own, > separate agent. Not you. * > Then maybe I died last night and I am not me, I just think I'm me; but if so I don't care, thinking I'm me is good enough for me. --> BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH for! The copy will be happy to be you and eat scones with me, but you will still be dead. It really should not be good enough for you, if your wish is to be reanimated. Stay healthy --> Thx, you too! --Regina -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed May 20 13:09:30 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 23:09:30 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 20:58, Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hiya Ben - It was a rhetorical question, I'm pointing out as a thought > experiment that a "perfect" copy of you in a "perfect" agent copy of your > body would believe it is you. In fact, IMHO, there would be no way to prove > to this new agent (i.e., person) that it is *not *you. The only agent in > the universe who would know that the copy was not you would be....wait for > it....YOU. Every other person in the world will think it is you (if it is a > perfect copy - which I have tried to show in my previous grillion posts is > likely impossible - i.e., no perfect copy can be made). > > Of course a copy of you can be someone other than you. It is. It is a new > person. It is not you, even if it thinks it is you. And, you and only can > know it's not you. Go back to my coffee-and-scone thought experiment. Can I > shoot you? If you belive I can because you will magically be "in" the copy > - tell me how, please. And where does the consciousness in the copy go? > You'll be being just as mean as I accused John of being (LOL). You can't > just take over another person's body! That's just rude. > > The copy becomes its own agent as soon as its online. You can't access > it. Death does not allow a magical transmogrification into agents you wish > to occupy. > > Oh, and the symmetrical room problem is a red herring. It only works by > confusion. You always gonna be you. > > -Regina > ----------------------------- > If you don?t believe that a copy of you is really you then to be consistent you should not believe that you are really you, since through normal metabolic processes the matter in your body is replaced with matter from the food, water and air you consume, and the original matter excreted into the biosphere. > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 21:17:07 +0100 > From: Ben > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data > Message-ID: <82b33da3-950b-09ce-d3e8-b688a3dd9683 at zaiboc.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > On 15/05/2020 17:28, Re Rose wrote: > > My biggest concern is that we might discover a technology that is > > "good enough" to fool people. It seems plausible that a copy, or a > > really good ASC preserved brain, should hold the data we need. That, > > IMHO, is a dangerous idea, because people will convince themselves > > that's all you need to preserve yourself. So the goal - to reanimate > > and continue to live your life - will not be met but YOU are not > > around to advocate for yourself! Your copy will be very happy to be > > reanimated, though, just as a stranger or a sibling might be. You are > > not your sibling, or a stranger, though, and you will not be there. > > "How would a copy of you know it's not you? Hm. After all, it would be a > It being with your memories and experiences and and I believe it will > believe it is you" > > That sounds like a nonsensical question to me. > > How could you tell that a copy of 'Imagine' by John Lennon was not in > fact 'Imagine' by John Lennon? After all, it would have all the same > notes in the same order, and it would sound just like 'Imagine' by John > Lennon. > > You could argue that a piece of music is not the same as a mind, but > then you'd be arguing for something special, above and beyond > information, that constitutes a mind, and you've already said that you > don't claim that. I recognise that minds are not fixed patterns, whereas > a specific piece of music is, but that doesn't affect the argument. A > dynamic pattern of information just contains extra information that > describes how the pattern changes under particular circumstances. In > essence, this is no different to a static pattern. It's all information. > > I can't really get my head around this concept that an identical copy (a > good-enough copy, really) of you isn't really 'you'. Who would it be? it > can't be Napoleon, it can't be Genghis Khan, it can only be you. Saying > "but it's only a copy!" is meaningless. Yes, it's a copy. A copy of you. > Ergo, you. It can't be anyone else, can it. > > I wrote a post about the amoeba splitting, but my computer crashed and I > lost it. Basically, I said the amoeba is just like a neuron, and if one > of your neurons underwent the same fission process, you wouldn't be able > to tell any difference between the two daughter neurons, and if you > destroyed one, it wouldn't matter one bit which one was destroyed > (assuming the same connections to other neurons were preserved). > Extrapolate this to all the neurons in your brain, and you effectively > have a copy of your brain which is identical to the original. Do you > really think this would result in a person that was 'not you'? > > Ben Zaiboc > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Wed May 20 13:53:07 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 09:53:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: <000501d62ea5$11975420$34c5fc60$@rainier66.com> References: <000501d62ea5$11975420$34c5fc60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks, good to know! The (nested(nested(nested(nested)))) comments and fragments seem confusing, glad to hear they are not :) Regina On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:49 AM wrote: > Hi Rose, ja we are reading this. Why is it confusing? Your posts are > filled with good stuff. > > > > spike > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Re Rose via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2020 5:39 AM > *To:* extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > *Cc:* Re Rose > *Subject:* > > > > OK, I'm going to do the interspersed-with-NON-YELLING-CAPS-thing again, > below. > > > > Are people really reading this? It's confusing even me!! LOL > > > > happy day to all~ > -----< BIG SNIP >---------- > > Stay healthy > > > > --> Thx, you too! > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 20 14:13:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 07:13:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: <000501d62ea5$11975420$34c5fc60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003501d62eb0$c9214190$5b63c4b0$@rainier66.com> From: Re Rose Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 6:53 AM To: Gregory Jones ; extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Thanks, good to know! The (nested(nested(nested(nested)))) comments and fragments seem confusing, glad to hear they are not :) Regina When we have someone among us who knows a lot about their topic, often no one posts a reply for reasons I understand: I don?t know enough about the topic to ask a reasonable question. So I just read and try to learn. Regarding the nested comments, note how people talk. A lot of spoken conversation contains serial digressions. If you try to transcribe exact discussions verbatim, they often seem chaotic (but if nested parenthetical comments are demarcated, it becomes clearer (for everything inside the parentheses can be eliminated)) making it difficult to follow the line of thought. spike On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:49 AM > wrote: Hi Rose, ja we are reading this. Why is it confusing? Your posts are filled with good stuff. spike From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 5:39 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: Re Rose > Subject: OK, I'm going to do the interspersed-with-NON-YELLING-CAPS-thing again, below. Are people really reading this? It's confusing even me!! LOL happy day to all~ -----< BIG SNIP >---------- Stay healthy --> Thx, you too! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 20 20:38:27 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:38:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5de592f5-b2ae-f793-61e0-0c6961c849bd@zaiboc.net> On 20/05/2020 13:49, Re Rose wrote: > ... the information physically coded in the brain (which is by no > means all of the information necessary to recreate your consciouness) ... I'm interested in why you think that. We've already discussed, and disposed of, the issue of information encoded in the rest of the body, which leaves... nothing else, as far as I can see. Where/what is the other information you're thinking of? -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 20 20:56:18 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:56:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Evolution (was: Re: Essential Upload Data) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20/05/2020 13:49, Re Rose wrote: > EVOLUTION FINDS BRILLIANT SOLUTIONS to many problems, and even > evolutionary algorithims?quickly lead to novel and adaptable > solutions! Don't be mean to evolution. Evolution definitely does not come up with 'brilliant' solutions to any problems. That's not how it works. It comes up with just-good-enough solutions, that result in more offspring. That's its job, that's all it has to do, and that's all it does, or even can do. This is why we have such terrible solutions as the recurrent laryngeal nerve, the inside-out mammalian eye, and the ridiculously inefficent Okazaki fragments in DNA replication, that /every single organism on the earth/ is stuck with. Don't tell me that these are 'brilliant solutions'. They are afwul bodges. But they work just well enough to not kill a potential parent before it can produce offspring. It's these kinds of things that show the 'intelligent design' religious nuts to be so laughable. It's not being mean to point out that evolution is a bit like democracy, in that it's a terrible system, but the best one we know of. So far. In fact, that's not really true. We don't know what system would work better than democracy, but we do actually know that deliberate design usually works much better than evolution. That includes using evolutionary algorithms, because there is a meta level sitting above it that makes deliberate decisions about the longer-term usefulness of an evolved system, instead of blind selection for fitness under local conditions. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 20 21:10:37 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 22:10:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459bb3da-ddf2-fb4a-60c2-3f61365c4966@zaiboc.net> I'd like to go back to the amoeba example, applied to the biological brain, or even the whole body. If advanced enough technology existed to make a human body and brain do exactly what an amoeba does when it reproduces (every structure inside every cell is replicated, randomly assigned to one half of the cell, which then splits in two), resulting in two identical bodies/brains, then what do we have? I'm not going to offer an answer to that question, just asking people to think about it, and let us know what you think the answer is. -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 20 22:05:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 18:05:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:44 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>Example, natural freezing of increasingly larger and more complex > creatures (water bears, c.elegans, bugs, bees, frogs), observation of > mammals (cats, dogs, skiers and other humans) recovering from hours of > near-freezing with *no damage*, use of deep cooling to do complex surgery. * > Near freezing is fine for a few hours during surgery but it's useless for Cryonics. Embryos have been frozen solid but no adult mammal has ever been brought back, none has even reached dry ice temperatures and lived, and dry ice is much too warm for long term storage. > > > *My point here is a demonstration that I do not agree that cryonics is an > entirely unproven technology :)* > I'm signed up for Cryonics so I'm certainly not trying to badmouth it, I'm just saying there is great uncertainty about it, I can't even give a probability of it working except to say it's greater than zero and less than 100%. > >> with the method Alcor currently uses the brain shrinks considerably >> due to dehydration for heaven's sake, and the shrinking is not symmetrical. >> I hope the damage just distorts the information and doesn't erase it, and I >> think that's probably the case, > > > -->* HM, I THINK YOUR choice of words indicates that you think of neural > information storage as being similar to the way a computer encodes data. > Don't do that. Very different.* > We don't know exactly how the brain encodes memories but we can be certain that in at least one way it's exactly the same way computers do, they both do it by changing the position and momentum of atoms; both may alter the electrical charge on atoms but that can be determined by their position and momentum. > *I believe the information physically coded in the brain (which is by no > means all of the information necessary to recreate your consciouness)* > So you think your big toe is necessary to be conscious? > > *might be deranged in a variety of ways: via physical damage to > neurons, via disruption of correlated pathways, via loss of electrical > entrainment signalling mechanisims, among others. This is different from > "distortion" or "erasure" of the data.* > You lost me. I don't see how physical damage of data is different from distortion or erasure of data. What's different about it? > *--> UNTIL WE KNOW A MECHANISIM FOR repair I think its premature to say > cryonic reanimation will *require* nanotechnology. It might, and it might > not.* > Freezing with Alcor's current technology will push atoms out of place by enough to make metabolism impossible. Freezing with ASC introduces an unusual new molecule that will also make metabolism impossible. So to turn metabolism back on and bring somebody back to life with either technique you're going to have to do one of the following: 1) Figure out where individual atoms were before they were displaced by freezing (and hope chaotic flow didn't occur) and then move the individual atoms back into position. 2) Remove one molecule that obviously does not belong. I think #2 is easier to do than #1, that's why I think ASC is superior to the method currently used. >> I think proteins are pretty crappy nanomachines, they can't build >> anything at all with most of the elements in the periodic table, and even >> for the element they're most comfortable with, carbon, they can't even make >> something as simple as a cubic lattice, aka a diamond. > > > --*> THIS IS A TERRIBLE objection! Biological proteins usually have no > business using most of the elements in the periodic table.* > There are 80 stable elements but life only figured out how to use 25 of them, I fail to see why such a extremely limited repertoire is a virtue. We have managed to find lots of very useful things that Aluminum can do, why couldn't life do the same thing? And it's all just carbon so why don't tigers have carbon fiber skeletons and diamond teeth? Because Evolution is an incompetent designer that's why, and it's why the retina of every vertebrate eye is backwards and has a blind spot as a result. And proteins oversee DNA replication and do a crummy job of it. The typical error rate for DNA reproduction is about one error per 100 million nucleotides. https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/dna-replication-and-causes-of-mutation-409 Each nucleotides contains 2 bits of information so that?s one error per 50 million bits, and one error in 50 million bits is bad, its LOUSY! Your computer wouldn?t work it it had an error rate that huge, the internet would not work, our entire information economy would collapse. But it hasn?t collapsed because Claude Shannon showed us 70 years ago how to encode information so it can be transferred and duplicated with arbitrary low error rates, vastly lower than anything biology managed to come up with. > ---> *EVOLUTION FINDS BRILLIANT SOLUTIONS yto many problems,* > Mother Nature (Evolution) is a slow and stupid tinkerer, it had over 3 billion years to work on the problem but it couldn't even come up with a part that could rotate in 360 degrees that was large enough to see with the naked eye. The vagus nerve that connects the brain of a giraffe to its larynx is over 15 feet long even though the two organs are less than a foot apart, the vagus nerve runs all the way down the neck and then double backs and goes back up the neck to the larynx. If Evolution could think ahead that would never happen, but it can't and it can't backtrack either and start over because every change it makes must improve things *right now*. Evolution has no foresight. A jet engine works better than a prop engine in an airplane. I give you a prop engine and tell you to turn it into a jet, but you must do it while the engine is running, you must do it in one million small steps, and you must do it so every one of those small steps immediately improves the operation of the engine. Eventually you would get an improved engine of some sort, but it wouldn't look anything like a jet. If the tire on your car is getting worn you can take it off and put a new one on, but evolution could never do something like that because when you take the old tire off you have temporarily made things worse, now you have no tire at all. With evolution EVERY step (generation), no matter how many, MUST be an immediate improvement over the previous one, it can't think more than one step ahead, it doesn't understand one step backward two steps forward. And that's why there are no 100 ton supersonic birds or nuclear powered horses, and that?s why we can?t even move our head by 360 degrees. It's easy to make a part that moves in 360 degrees if its microscopic because nutriments can just diffuse in and waste products diffuse out; but as parts get bigger the volume increases by the cube of the radius but the surface area only increases by the square, so when things get big diffusion just isn't good enough. Evolution never figured out how to do better and make a wheel large enough to see, but rational designers, aka people, did. > >> I know extraordinarily superb precision is hard, that's why we don't >> have it right now, and that's the only reason why today people still get >> old, get sick, and die. > > > --> > * NOT THE ACTUAL REASONS FOR AGING, if thats what you mean....* > There are lots of proximate causes for aging and death, but the ultimate cause has got to be atoms having the wrong position and momentum. The only way this view could be wrong is if the Bible Thumpers are right and vitalism is true, but that possibility is far too remote for me to worry about. > *> I'M NOT SAYING NANOTECH IS IMPOSSIBLE! * > Good. *> I'm saying (again and again in grillions of ways) copying the > information is impossible. Not at all due to physical limitations of > nanotech, rather, due to the inerent characteristics of the system.* > Then what you're advocating is not science it's pure vitalism because there is not one scrap of evidence that information can be encoded in a non-physical way and if it's physical then Nanotechnology can duplicate it. Well OK... it can't duplicate an atoms quantum state... but at body temperature that state changes billions of times a second so it doesn't seem relevant in a discussion about personal identity. --> *NO! NOT VERY expensive at all, and the problem of fracturing is huge - > don't dismss that so easily. * > Cracking is a simple displacement, compared to other problems that need to be overcome to bring somebody back it's the least of your worries because you don't need to be a Sherlock Holmes to figure out what went where before the atoms were displaced, its obvious. If the repair technology finds even that childish problem to be huge then forget Cryonics, we're doomed. ---> OMG HAVE I FAILED TO BE clear as to exactly why I think ASC is not a > good method to address this??? You don't need to agree, by all means, but > the reasons are clear!!! > I want to be honest with you. Not only do I not agree with your objection I don't even have a clear understanding of exactly what your objection is, just vague stuff about you not being you because of missing information being encoded in some unknown place in some unknown way not involving atoms that for a unknown reason Nanotechnology can not duplicate and that for some other unknown reason ASC does an inferior job of preserving this mysterious ethereal information than the current method despite what electron microscopes unambiguously show. *> *ASC is not going to preserve enough info! Sorry, its very nice and a > pretty method, but its not right for our goals because its pretty lossy.** > You say ASC is pretty lossy but you can't say just what is lost or why the current method loses less, or if you can say you haven't so far. >> Electron microscopes don't lie, if ASC is lossy the existing method is >> much more lossy. > > > ---> NO ITS NOT!!! I've said why in previous email, reallly, in > quad-grillions of different ways. That's a lot of ways. > But in not one of those quad-grillions of different ways have you explained how life encodes information without using atoms nor have you explained why Alcor's method somehow retains this mystical phantom information but ASC destroys it. > > I don't know what you mean by "hierarchical information". And what difference >> does it make if all the atoms in your body are replaced every 6 months or >> every 6 seconds or every 6 nanoseconds if atoms are generic? > > > --> YOU WILL HAVE TO LOOK THAT UP, > I already did, and didn't see even a hint as to how to encode information without using atoms. > > * > no way can I explain system dynamics and all the other good stuff > here. * > Too deep to explain here huh... well maybe so, it would have to be very deep indeed to explain how information can be encoded in something non physical and still remain inside the scientific method. > --> *IF YOU THINK ASC IS the best way, you do *NOT* know where the > information lies. Sorry. For some of that background, there are lots of > texts on neural coding.* > You need neurons to have neural coding, so please refer me to a text that proves neurons are not made of atoms and don't obey the same laws of physics that everything else does. > >> I'm sorry but that is not a satisfactory response. Please specify the missing >> information that is not encoded in a atoms position or momentum and explain >> why Alcor's current method preserves that information better than ASC can >> despite what microscopes show > > > --> *You're asking me to provide an online compendium of knowledge and > information* > If it's online then that information is encoded somewhere in a computer that is made of atoms, so please show me where the connection to that computer is that says neurons are not made of atoms. Or show me just one example of life, or anything else, encoding information in a non-physical way. If you can do either of those things then you've won the argument. > --> THIS IS NOT a problem I have observed or am particulary worried about. > As I said in my last post, viscosity increses as temperature decreases. > Yes and the cryoprotectant increases the viscosity too and that gives me some optimism that the flow during freezing will not be chaotic, but you should still be far more worried about it than simple cracking because even if there is no chaos and the shrinking and flow is laminar it's still going to be a lot more complicated to figure out where things are suposed to go than with displacement caused by cracking. > --> I HAVE GIVEN MANY DIFFERENT responses and reasons but you keep > brushing them aside and asking the same questions over and over. > I'd stop asking the same questions if you gave me a few straight answers. > *if you think the electron microscpe images capture all the necessary > information* [...] > I don't know for sure that good electron microscope pictures capture all the necessary information, but I do know for sure that good pictures capture more information than bad pictures, and ASC can produce much better pictures. You'd need to state some huge advantage the current method has to overcome that fact but I've heard nothing. *---> ALRIGHT, FIRST OF ALL IT WAS A SCONE! I am far too refined to offer > you a mere "cookie". And second, I blasted you apart with your permission. > Why did you give it?* > If you blasted me into atoms after noting what atome went where and then used other atoms to put me back together and if you did if skillfully enough you wouldn't even need to ask my permission because I wouldn't even know you had done it. * > But the position and momentum are not not not enough to recreate you, I > cry again.* > Because of some missing phantom stuff that is sounding more and more like a soul. I believe in information, I don't believe in souls. > > *And don't get me started on Heisenberg. He's not going to support your > position-and-momentum thing in the least.* > I think Mr. Heisenberg would be on my side, if absolute perfection was required for personal identity to continue then you'd become a different person every Planck Time; from the day you were born 10^44 different Roses would be born every second and 10^44 Roses would die. And besides, I don't see why ASC would be more vulnerable to quantum uncertainty than Alcor's current method, everything must obey Heisenberg's law. --> YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOT the copy. > That pinpoints your fundamental error. No, I would NOT know if I am the copy or the original, and personally I would not care. > *The copy doesn't know.* > Correct, unless the person supervising the copying process told us neither I or that devilishly handsome charming intelligent fellow right over there would know if he was the copy or the original. > --> *YES THE COPY will have a problem, thinking it is me. Poor copy.* > You shouldn't pity the copy because it could be self pity, you could be the copy. And I don't understand why you'd be upset if you found out you were. > *But I am still me* > And that is something that both you and the original are saying to themselves. *> Rose is my copy, and she keeps thinking she's me, but I, Regina, have > written these posts.* > But Rose remembers writing all those posts just as clearly as Regina does, so both have a equally valid claim to the title "Regina", but to avoid confusion only one should use it, to decide I suggest a coin flip. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 21 12:36:25 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 08:36:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing Message-ID: The news just broke that in a boneheaded move the US Center for Disease Control has been combining the results from the virus test with the results of the antibody test in its statistics without telling anybody, and that makes the results almost impossible to interpret. The virus test is the gold standard and tells you if you have the virus right now; if you're sick but the test is negative then something other than COVID-19 is making you ill. The less accurate antibody test tells you if you've ever been exposed to the virus and a positive result may mean you are immune from the virus. One test looks ahead the other looks behind. The virus test is only administered to those who already have symptoms of COVID-19, but the antibody test is being given to the general population at random and has a much higher false negative result than the virus test, so combining those results will very strongly drive down the positive rate statistics. And states have been using these very questionable statistics to decide when it is safe to reopen! How Could the CDC Make That Mistake? Meanwhile a disease computer model says that if the lockdown had started just one week earlier in March at least 36,000 American lives could have been saved. Delay in Lockdown Led to at Least 36,000 More Deaths, Models Find John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu May 21 13:55:30 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 08:55:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <185086D3-7454-4602-9BE2-171F059FEB6B@gmail.com> Really not good to combine them at all. Not sure what the CDC is thinking... Or perhaps they don?t have much say in it. SR Ballard > On May 21, 2020, at 7:36 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > The news just broke that in a boneheaded move the US Center for Disease Control has been combining the results from the virus test with the results of the antibody test in its statistics without telling anybody, and that makes the results almost impossible to interpret. The virus test is the gold standard and tells you if you have the virus right now; if you're sick but the test is negative then something other than COVID-19 is making you ill. The less accurate antibody test tells you if you've ever been exposed to the virus and a positive result may mean you are immune from the virus. One test looks ahead the other looks behind. > > The virus test is only administered to those who already have symptoms of COVID-19, but the antibody test is being given to the general population at random and has a much higher false negative result than the virus test, so combining those results will very strongly drive down the positive rate statistics. And states have been using these very questionable statistics to decide when it is safe to reopen! > > How Could the CDC Make That Mistake? > > Meanwhile a disease computer model says that if the lockdown had started just one week earlier in March at least 36,000 American lives could have been saved. > > Delay in Lockdown Led to at Least 36,000 More Deaths, Models Find > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 21 13:55:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 06:55:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003a01d62f77$8ad029c0$a0707d40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Meanwhile a disease computer model says that if the lockdown had started just one week earlier in March at least 36,000 American lives could have been saved? Delay in Lockdown Led to at Least 36,000 More Deaths, Models Find John K Clark The mayor of New York City urged his people to stay at their jobs and not panic. Results: over a quarter of the deaths in the entire US are concentrated in one city, the one city over which that mayor resides: This graphic represents a very important signal. An ongoing debate in the state of New York is about making state-wide decisions based on one metropolis area. Most of the state is rural: the rules they make for the city are not appropriate out there. This graphic also shows why national-level rulings. All lockdown authority should reside at the city and county level. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 53154 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:04:30 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:04:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sadly, Spain was also doing the same thing until relatively recently. I follow the Johns Hopkins updates daily and noticed it around a month ago. There's really no excuse for this kind of incompetence. This is from the April 24th JH update: Spain appears to be updating its COVID-19 reporting methods. On its COVID-19 dashboard, the cases reported in the past 24 hours now refer only to those confirmed with a PCR test, which appears to be a change. Previously, Spain did not specify how many cases fell under this category, and after a review of other daily reports, it seems as though Spain has been including individuals with positive serological tests since approximately April 15. We have noted in previous COVID-19 briefings that Spain?s reported daily incidence has not been decreasing like we have observed in some other European countries. If these recent reports included positive serological tests (whereas previously reported data did not), it could potentially explain why the daily incidence was not decreasing as expected. Spain?s April 24 daily report shows 202,990 confirmed cases (PCR test), including 2,796 new cases. This is considerably fewer new cases than have been reported over the past several weeks. Additionally, the daily report shows 219,764 total cases?including both PCR and serological tests?which matches the total cases reported on the dashboard. The change in total cases reported on the dashboard from the previous day is 6,740 new cases, but it seems that this would include new positive serological tests as well. As of today, the dashboard appears to include a mix of data for both types of test in the total reported cases and just the PCR test for new cases, and it is unclear how Spain will proceed with its COVID-19 reporting in the future. On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 8:38 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The news just broke that in a boneheaded move the US Center for Disease > Control has been combining the results from the virus test with the results > of the antibody test in its statistics without telling anybody, and that > makes the results almost impossible to interpret. The virus test is the > gold standard and tells you if you have the virus right now; if you're > sick but the test is negative then something other than COVID-19 is making > you ill. The less accurate antibody test tells you if you've ever been > exposed to the virus and a positive result may mean you are immune from the > virus. One test looks ahead the other looks behind. > > The virus test is only administered to those who already have symptoms of > COVID-19, but the antibody test is being given to the general population at > random and has a much higher false negative result than the virus test, so > combining those results will very strongly drive down the positive rate > statistics. And states have been using these very questionable statistics > to decide when it is safe to reopen! > > How Could the CDC Make That Mistake? > > > Meanwhile a disease computer model says that if the lockdown had started > just one week earlier in March at least 36,000 American lives could have > been saved. > > Delay in Lockdown Led to at Least 36,000 More Deaths, Models Find > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 21 14:18:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 07:18:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: <185086D3-7454-4602-9BE2-171F059FEB6B@gmail.com> References: <185086D3-7454-4602-9BE2-171F059FEB6B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005401d62f7a$b7a44500$26eccf00$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Virus testing >?Really not good to combine them at all. Not sure what the CDC is thinking... Or perhaps they don?t have much say in it. SR Ballard Hi SR, ja. The data is mixed in such a way as to make direct comparison difficult. We could have death rates as a fallback, but in the US, we have taken a very liberal approach: counting anyone who dies with the virus and dying of the virus. We compounded the problem by incentivizing hospitals to count that way. That was a big mistake which misled plenty of mayors into doing the wrong thing. The whole misadventure has me thinking of how to work the really big metropolis areas in a way that promotes social distancing. An example would be enclosed, self-driving single seat vehicles, with a clam-shell enclosure. The prole would get in, tell it where she wanted to end up, and it does the driving. Such a rig could be built at 200 kg or less, have a top speed of about 30 kph and could be hauled up in elevators (but not escalators) with the passenger inside. We could imagine supply vehicles could be made this way too: they would go without any human cargo, but would carry food and other necessary items in to a point destination. We have created a few really super high-density areas where it has become impossible to do effective social distancing. In those really big metro areas, they might have high-density zones where these kinds of single-passenger vehicles would go, but nothing with a steering wheel would be allowed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:29:47 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:29:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: <003a01d62f77$8ad029c0$a0707d40$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d62f77$8ad029c0$a0707d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>?Meanwhile a disease computer model says that if the lockdown had started >> just one week earlier in March at least 36,000 American lives could have >> been saved? >> >> >> Delay in Lockdown Led to at Least 36,000 More Deaths, Models Find >> >> >> > > *> The mayor of New York City urged his people to stay at their jobs and > not panic. * > And that was a dumb thing for the mayor to do. > > *This graphic represents a very important signal.* > Yes, and the most important thing is that if the lockdown had started just one week earlier the death toll in New York City on May 3 would have been 2,838 and not 17,581, and the US national death toll would have been 29,410 and not 65,307. And the decision on when to start the lockdown was based on politics and on very questionable CDC statistics that made things look better than they really were. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 21 14:34:49 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:34:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Hm. To be clear, I'm saying two distinct things: 1) you can't make a copy because information will be missing. 2) as far as a truly exact copy, I think that would be its own agent, it will not be you. The information and circumstance that makes you be you is not found in the replacement of the atoms in your body. These are placed each instance in time conditioned by the existing boundary conditions of your existing, active functional biological systems (ie, replacing atoms or even neurons in your brain will not interrupt already entrained neuro-hormonal or neurotransmitter feedback cycles. Replacing atoms or cells or healing tissue in your gut will not totally disrupt the existing gut biome. Etc etc etc). Such placement is always informated by your active cycles and/or systems. That is the information that I keep saying will not be able to be copied. It is information that is part of the whole, and not reducible. So yes, I'm persistantly me, even though some of me was in that scone I ate with John (lol). -Regina ------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 23:09:30 +1000 From: Stathis Papaioannou To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 20:58, Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hiya Ben - It was a rhetorical question, I'm pointing out as a thought > experiment that a "perfect" copy of you in a "perfect" agent copy of your > body would believe it is you. In fact, IMHO, there would be no way to prove > to this new agent (i.e., person) that it is *not *you. The only agent in > the universe who would know that the copy was not you would be....wait for > it....YOU. Every other person in the world will think it is you (if it is a > perfect copy - which I have tried to show in my previous grillion posts is > likely impossible - i.e., no perfect copy can be made). > > Of course a copy of you can be someone other than you. It is. It is a new > person. It is not you, even if it thinks it is you. And, you and only can > know it's not you. Go back to my coffee-and-scone thought experiment. Can I > shoot you? If you belive I can because you will magically be "in" the copy > - tell me how, please. And where does the consciousness in the copy go? > You'll be being just as mean as I accused John of being (LOL). You can't > just take over another person's body! That's just rude. > > The copy becomes its own agent as soon as its online. You can't access > it. Death does not allow a magical transmogrification into agents you wish > to occupy. > > Oh, and the symmetrical room problem is a red herring. It only works by > confusion. You always gonna be you. > > -Regina > ----------------------------- > If you don?t believe that a copy of you is really you then to be consistent you should not believe that you are really you, since through normal metabolic processes the matter in your body is replaced with matter from the food, water and air you consume, and the original matter excreted into the biosphere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:52:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:52:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: <005401d62f7a$b7a44500$26eccf00$@rainier66.com> References: <185086D3-7454-4602-9BE2-171F059FEB6B@gmail.com> <005401d62f7a$b7a44500$26eccf00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:27 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *we have taken a very liberal approach: counting anyone who dies with the > virus and dying of the virus. * Almost certainly we are seriously underreporting the number of people who have died of COVID-19. Even if you subtract out the numbers that have officially died of COVID-19 the number of Americans who have died in late March April and early May is still nearly 50% greater than the number of Americans who died last year during the same months. U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported, C.D.C. Data Suggests John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 21 14:56:19 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:56:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Ben, I should have clarified. I didn't mean evolution was consciously creative, which the word "brilliant" evokes. I meant the power of it is often surprising, and the solutions it arrives at (I'm thinking of the Robby the Robot cleaning algorithm - a program which creates a search path for a autonomous robot in a maze, picking up trash in cubicles on the path. Evolutionary algorithms find optimal pathways far faster than human programmers do for the robot) are more efficient than the ones directed human programmers some up with. And, I disagree that deliberate design works better than evolution for all tasks. In fact I'd even go so far as to vehemently disagree with that statement. Humans meddle and break things, they overdesign, they "paper-over" or build around errors, they make things that emit toxins and then ignore the toxins, they cannot foresee unforeseen consequences, the things they make wear out and become obsolete. Not always good. The other part of that discussion would be the human engineering of things like machines, and mathematics, and cities, and the like, but even then I think evolution finds the best solution once the process is started. We call that evolution "capitalisim" and/or "free market". It's amazing, though, what "good enough" can do - look at the effectiveness and anti-fragility of all the interacting biochemical pathways which make up metabolic systems across species. Or the metabolic design of extremophiles. Or the effectiveness of the simple honeybee brain. I could keep naming biological miracles but you could also just go outside and look at the delicate structure and variety of color and fragrence (for communication!) of your local flowers, or check out any bird, lizard or ant, or even microbes - and try to design one from scratch. Evolution did all that. I still think it's, well, if not truly brilliant, then hugely awesome in the true sense of the word. -Regina --------------- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:56:18 +0100 From: Ben To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [ExI] Evolution (was: Re: Essential Upload Data) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" On 20/05/2020 13:49, Re Rose wrote: > EVOLUTION FINDS BRILLIANT SOLUTIONS to many problems, and even > evolutionary algorithims?quickly lead to novel and adaptable > solutions! Don't be mean to evolution. Evolution definitely does not come up with 'brilliant' solutions to any problems. That's not how it works. It comes up with just-good-enough solutions, that result in more offspring. That's its job, that's all it has to do, and that's all it does, or even can do. This is why we have such terrible solutions as the recurrent laryngeal nerve, the inside-out mammalian eye, and the ridiculously inefficent Okazaki fragments in DNA replication, that /every single organism on the earth/ is stuck with. Don't tell me that these are 'brilliant solutions'. They are afwul bodges. But they work just well enough to not kill a potential parent before it can produce offspring. It's these kinds of things that show the 'intelligent design' religious nuts to be so laughable. It's not being mean to point out that evolution is a bit like democracy, in that it's a terrible system, but the best one we know of. So far. In fact, that's not really true. We don't know what system would work better than democracy, but we do actually know that deliberate design usually works much better than evolution. That includes using evolutionary algorithms, because there is a meta level sitting above it that makes deliberate decisions about the longer-term usefulness of an evolved system, instead of blind selection for fitness under local conditions. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 21 15:22:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:22:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:41 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I'm persistantly me, even though some of me was in that scone I ate with > John (lol).* When discussing this topic personal pronouns need to be handled as carefully as if they were made of nitroglycerin. Ms.You is persistently Regina because Ms.You remembers being Regina yesterday, and exactly precisely the same thing could be said about Ms.You's copy. > *The information and circumstance that makes you be you is not found in > the replacement of the atoms in your body. These are placed each instance > in time conditioned by the existing boundary conditions of your existing, > active functional biological systems* > And all biological systems, active or not, are made of atoms, and the position and momentum of those atoms are the initial conditions. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 21 15:25:08 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:25:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: I tookl John's last post apart this time, so I can focus on points as I have some time to respond. So first of all, its not a limitation of "life" in ANY WAY that only a few elements are used in biological processes. It's a limitation on reality imposed by thermodyanimc considerations. Instead of giving a course in physical chemistry and organic chemistry, which as a chemist I certainly recommend people should take, I'll just say, biology is basicallylimited by chemical potentials. Reaction in biochemical systems need to be reversible in order to ;participate in biochcmical cycles. Bones cannot be made of diamond because bones remodel dynamically, and also the bone tissue evolved to be part of and participate in other biochchemical mechanisms (as a store of calcium, for example, or its marrow being part of the immune system). Diamond is not reactive and would not be a biochemically versatile. DNA repair is my thing, in fact I am about a month away from a publication on this topic which I'd be happy to share (note: saying that here gives me incentive to me complete that damn paper, which is taking a very long time...!). So - I completely disagree, DNA repair systems are amazing. DNA is being replicated constantly, it is under constant siege by radicals and other reactve molecules, it is sitting in an aqueous environment at around 100 degrees depending on the creature, it is subject to constant environmental attack -- and yet its data stays intact for at least 70 years and probably can stay intact for hundreds of years. It is robust to exogenous atttacks such as by mutagens or radiation. There are a number of interacting repair mechanisims which detect any error or damage to the DNA within microseconds, and they quickly recruit the correct repair systems to these lesions. In worst case situations, when data is missing (like over a double strand break), these repair systems can even recreate missing data - a strategy which can fail but it is a last ditch effort and often succeeds. So DNA repair is a huge evolutionary sucess which relaibly carries precious biological information forward in time, and the inherent chemical and physical problems evolution solved in order for that relaibility to occur are tremendous. Each type of DNA damage - base adduct, strand scission, oxidation, dimerization, there are many more - all have completely different chemistries, and each DNA repair system deals with each one of these chemistries eparately. It is truly an amazing feat, one which you (or any living organisim) literally could not live without. Please. Respect for DNA repair! -Regina --------------------- There are 80 stable elements but life only figured out how to use 25 of them, I fail to see why such a extremely limited repertoire is a virtue. We have managed to find lots of very useful things that Aluminum can do, whycouldn't life do the same thing? And it's all just carbon so why don'ttigers have carbon fiber skeletons and diamond teeth? Because Evolution isan incompetent designer that's why, and it's why the retina of every vertebrate eye is backwards and has a blind spot as a result. And proteins oversee DNA replication and do a crummy job of it. The typical error rate for DNA reproduction is about one error per 100 million nucleotides. https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/dna-replication-and-causes-of-mutation-409 Each nucleotides contains 2 bits of information so that?s one error per 50 million bits, and one error in 50 million bits is bad, its LOUSY! Your computer wouldn?t work it it had an error rate that huge, the internet would not work, our entire information economy would collapse. But it hasn?t collapsed because Claude Shannon showed us 70 years ago how to encode information so it can be transferred and duplicated with arbitrary low error rates, vastly lower than anything biology managed to come up with. -------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 21 15:33:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 08:33:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: References: <185086D3-7454-4602-9BE2-171F059FEB6B@gmail.com> <005401d62f7a$b7a44500$26eccf00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b801d62f85$400eb5b0$c02c2110$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Virus testing On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:27 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > we have taken a very liberal approach: counting anyone who dies with the virus and dying of the virus. Almost certainly we are seriously underreporting the number of people who have died of COVID-19. Even if you subtract out the numbers that have officially died of COVID-19 the number of Americans who have died in late March April and early May is still nearly 50% greater than the number of Americans who died last year during the same months. U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported, C.D.C. Data Suggests John K Clark That approach mixes those who died by some consequence of the lockdown, which is indirectly related to the virus, failing to differentiate from those who died of the virus. An example would be those who perish because they could not or did not get medical care for another condition. Here is a letter signed by several hundred doctors (ironically addressed to someone who does not have the authority to open individual states, counties or cities) which seems pretty convincing to me: https://disrn.com/news/mass-casualty-incident-600-doctors-sign-letter-to-trump-calling-for-end-to-coronavirus-lockdowns spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 21 15:52:26 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:52:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: <00b801d62f85$400eb5b0$c02c2110$@rainier66.com> References: <185086D3-7454-4602-9BE2-171F059FEB6B@gmail.com> <005401d62f7a$b7a44500$26eccf00$@rainier66.com> <00b801d62f85$400eb5b0$c02c2110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:40 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Here is a letter signed by several hundred doctors > > > > https://disrn.com/news/mass-casualty-incident-600-doctors-sign-letter-to-trump-calling-for-end-to-coronavirus-lockdowns > "*Anybody who joins one of our coalitions is vetted. And so quite obviously, all of our coalitions espouse policies and say things that are, of course, exactly simpatico with what the president believes. ... The president has been outspoken about the fact that he wants to get the country back open as soon as possible,*" Quoted from: GOP recruiting pro-Trump doctors to promote America reopening John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:07:30 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:07:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: <00b801d62f85$400eb5b0$c02c2110$@rainier66.com> References: <185086D3-7454-4602-9BE2-171F059FEB6B@gmail.com> <005401d62f7a$b7a44500$26eccf00$@rainier66.com> <00b801d62f85$400eb5b0$c02c2110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On the subject of COVID-19 stats, I'm basically nihilistic at this point. The stats are garbage. Everyone's stats are garbage. Moreover, they're all garbage in different ways. And they have been since the beginning of this. When you don't know what the local coroner's office is categorizing as a COVID death, you can't even meaningfully compare states, let alone countries. And when they combine different tests into the same number, you have no idea what the status of the population is. And when the tests aren't distributed randomly throughout the population, the number tested doesn't mean anything anyways. On top of all that, there are reports coming out that some places had it earlier months earlier than others, that have somehow not achieved herd immunity or even case numbers. Which means the models are bad. Really, really bad. All of them. Months from now, we might get some meaningful information out of "excess deaths over historical average" in a given area, but probably not, because the deaths in a given month statistic, year over year, is enormously variant even under normal circumstances. And you can't make policy on data you don't have yet anyways. In here and a few other forums populated by smart people who are not yet completely politicized, for the last two months, I've been watching the smartest people on the internet try to construct a coherent model of reality based on these published numbers. and they can't. Because there is no "there" there. This is just powerless people whose primary coping mechanism is analysis and comprehension, desperately grabbing at numbers like drowning men grabbing at slivers of driftwood, and pretending that that gives them some kind of control over their lives. And it doesn't. We have just witnessed nothing less than the most public failure possible of the basic concept of the technocratic state public health apparatus. And them throwing nonsensical meaningless number after nonsensical meaningless number at us is just a desperate attempt to get us to not notice this. On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 9:40 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Virus testing > > > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:27 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *we have taken a very liberal approach: counting anyone who dies with > the virus and dying of the virus. * > > > > Almost certainly we are seriously underreporting the number of people who > have died of COVID-19. Even if you subtract out the numbers that have > officially died of COVID-19 the number of Americans who have died in late > March April and early May is still nearly 50% greater than the number of > Americans who died last year during the same months. > > > > U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported, C.D.C. Data > Suggests > > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > That approach mixes those who died by some consequence of the lockdown, > which is indirectly related to the virus, failing to differentiate from > those who died of the virus. An example would be those who perish because > they could not or did not get medical care for another condition. > > > > Here is a letter signed by several hundred doctors (ironically addressed > to someone who does not have the authority to open individual states, > counties or cities) which seems pretty convincing to me: > > > > > https://disrn.com/news/mass-casualty-incident-600-doctors-sign-letter-to-trump-calling-for-end-to-coronavirus-lockdowns > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 21 16:22:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 09:22:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: References: <185086D3-7454-4602-9BE2-171F059FEB6B@gmail.com> <005401d62f7a$b7a44500$26eccf00$@rainier66.com> <00b801d62f85$400eb5b0$c02c2110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d62f8b$f7b85260$e728f720$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Virus testing >?On the subject of COVID-19 stats, I'm basically nihilistic at this point. >?The stats are garbage. Everyone's stats are garbage. Moreover, they're all garbage in different ways. And they have been since the beginning of this? Darin Darin I think you are right on with this. We see so many using the virus data to get funding for their hospitals, or trying to leverage it for political gain, or hoping to sell their products, or to keep the traffic low in order to ease their commute, all using data which is not just garbage, it is toxic waste. That letter from the doctors was convincing to me. The doctors are front-line workers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:30:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 12:30:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:33 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> So first of all, its not a limitation of "life" in ANY WAY that only a > few elements are used in biological processes. It's a limitation on reality > imposed by thermodyanimc considerations.* > Intelligent designers aka people must also obey the law of thermodynamics, but unlike life they figured out how to make Aluminium foil, not to mention Teflon, Polycarbonate lenses, carbon nanotubes and uranium reactors. *> I'll just say, biology is basically limited by chemical potentials.* > Explaining why something is limited does not make it one bit less limited. * > Bones cannot be made of diamond because bones remodel dynamically,* > All you're saying is biology can make bones but not diamonds. I already knew that. > *Diamond is not reactive* > You don't want teeth or a turtle's shell to be chemically reactive you want them to be hard, diamonds would work great if life knew how to make them, but it doesn't. *> DNA repair systems are amazing. DNA is being replicated constantly, it > is under constant siege by radicals and other reactve molecules, it is > sitting in an aqueous environment at around 100 degrees depending on the > creature, it is subject to constant environmental attack -- and yet its > data stays intact for at least 70 years and probably can stay intact for > hundreds of years. It is robust to exogenous atttacks such as by mutagens > or radiation. There are a number of interacting repair mechanisims which > detect any error or damage to the DNA within microseconds, and they quickly > recruit the correct repair systems to these lesions. In worst case > situations, when data is missing (like over a double strand break), these > repair systems can even recreate missing data - a strategy which can fail > but it is a last ditch effort and often succeeds.* > Well all that is real nice. but the entire point of the thing is to correctly copy information, and the cheapest computer at Sears can accomplish that task with far fewer errors and do it much faster too. If life could do half as well Cancer would be virtually unknown. *> Please. Respect for DNA repair!* > I will give natural DNA repair all the respect it deserves. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:54:34 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 02:54:34 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 00:40, Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hm. To be clear, I'm saying two distinct things: 1) you can't make a copy > because information will be missing. 2) as far as a truly exact copy, I > think that would be its own agent, it will not be you. > > The information and circumstance that makes you be you is not found in the > replacement of the atoms in your body. These are placed each instance in > time conditioned by the existing boundary conditions of your existing, > active functional biological systems (ie, replacing atoms or even neurons > in your brain will not interrupt already entrained neuro-hormonal or > neurotransmitter feedback cycles. Replacing atoms or cells or healing > tissue in your gut will not totally disrupt the existing gut biome. Etc etc > etc). > I don?t see the point you are making. The repair systems work continuously and do not normally disrupt physiological processes, but what if they did: would you no longer be you? Such placement is always informated by your active cycles and/or systems. > That is the information that I keep saying will not be able to be copied. > It is information that is part of the whole, and not reducible. > > So yes, I'm persistantly me, even though some of me was in that scone I > ate with John (lol). > > -Regina > ------------------------- > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 23:09:30 +1000 > From: Stathis Papaioannou > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data > Message-ID: > 2ypWNu95d0WA0St1iojCtj34v0eZzOhtXCY2Vsror4o8L5A at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Wed, 20 May 2020 at 20:58, Re Rose via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Hiya Ben - It was a rhetorical question, I'm pointing out as a thought > > experiment that a "perfect" copy of you in a "perfect" agent copy of your > > body would believe it is you. In fact, IMHO, there would be no way to > prove > > to this new agent (i.e., person) that it is *not *you. The only agent in > > the universe who would know that the copy was not you would be....wait > for > > it....YOU. Every other person in the world will think it is you (if it > is a > > perfect copy - which I have tried to show in my previous grillion posts > is > > likely impossible - i.e., no perfect copy can be made). > > > > Of course a copy of you can be someone other than you. It is. It is a new > > person. It is not you, even if it thinks it is you. And, you and only can > > know it's not you. Go back to my coffee-and-scone thought experiment. > Can I > > shoot you? If you belive I can because you will magically be "in" the > copy > > - tell me how, please. And where does the consciousness in the copy go? > > You'll be being just as mean as I accused John of being (LOL). You can't > > just take over another person's body! That's just rude. > > > > The copy becomes its own agent as soon as its online. You can't access > > it. Death does not allow a magical transmogrification into agents you > wish > > to occupy. > > > > Oh, and the symmetrical room problem is a red herring. It only works by > > confusion. You always gonna be you. > > > > -Regina > > ----------------------------- > > > > If you don?t believe that a copy of you is really you then to be consistent > you should not believe that you are really you, since through normal > metabolic processes the matter in your body is replaced with matter from > the food, water and air you consume, and the original matter excreted into > the biosphere. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu May 21 17:17:49 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 18:17:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e7ac480-3805-0798-b405-97dfbb9feb67@zaiboc.net> On 21/05/2020 17:22, Re Rose wrote: > Ben, I should have clarified. I didn't mean evolution was consciously > creative, which the word "brilliant" evokes. I meant the power of it > is often surprising, and the solutions it arrives at (I'm thinking of > the Robby the Robot cleaning algorithm?- a program which creates a > search path for a autonomous robot in a maze, picking up trash in > cubicles on the path. Evolutionary?algorithms?find optimal pathways > far faster than human programmers do for the robot) are more efficient > than the ones directed human programmers some up with. > > And, I disagree that deliberate?design works better than evolution for > all tasks. In fact I'd even go so far as to vehemently disagree with > that statement. Humans meddle and break things, they overdesign, they > "paper-over" or build around errors, they make things?that emit toxins > and then ignore the toxins, they cannot foresee > unforeseen?consequences, the things they make wear out and become > obsolete. Not always good. The other part of that discussion would be > the human engineering of things like machines, and mathematics, and > cities, and the like, but even then I think evolution finds the best > solution once the process is started. We call that evolution > "capitalisim" and/or "free market". > > It's amazing, though, what "good enough" can do - look at the > effectiveness and anti-fragility?of all the interacting?biochemical > pathways which make up metabolic systems?across species. Or the > metabolic design?of extremophiles. Or the effectiveness of the simple > honeybee brain. I could keep naming biological miracles but you could > also just go outside and look at the delicate structure and variety of > color and fragrence (for communication!) of your local flowers, or > check out any bird, lizard or ant, or even microbes - and try to > design one from scratch. Evolution did all that. I still think it's, > well, if not truly brilliant, then hugely awesome in the true sense of > the word. > You really don't think that deliberate design, given 3 billion years, couldn't come up with much better solutions than evolution has in the same time? I'm not saying that we /currently /do design things better than evolution has, of course not. I'm saying that evolution, even though it does come up with some marvellous things, also comes up with some howlers, that looked at from the perspective of an intelligent agent, are as dumb as a very dumb thing indeed, and there's no doubt we could improve on them, and very probably will one day. In? fact, I think that one day, we or our descendants will redesign biology in depth, right from the DNA upwards (almost certainly ditching DNA itself in the process), and the result will be organisms such as have never been seen before, with properties and abilities that we would simple gape in wonder at. You think evolution has produced some wonders? You ain't seen nothing yet. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu May 21 17:41:00 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 18:41:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5303e4d1-3b53-a30b-74b8-d0fe4405ae8d@zaiboc.net> On 21/05/2020 17:22, Re Rose wrote: > DNA repair is my thing, in fact I am about a month away from a > publication on this topic which I'd be happy to share (note: saying > that here gives me incentive to me complete that damn paper, which is > taking a very long time...!). So - I completely disagree, DNA repair > systems are amazing. DNA is being replicated constantly, it is under > constant siege by radicals and other reactve?molecules, it is sitting > in an aqueous environment at around 100 degrees depending on the > creature, it is subject to constant environmental attack -- and yet > its data stays intact for at least 70 years and probably can stay > intact for hundreds of years. It is robust to exogenous atttacks?such > as by mutagens or radiation. There are a number of interacting repair > mechanisims?which detect any error or damage to the DNA within > microseconds, and they quickly recruit the correct repair systems to > these lesions. In worst case situations, when data is missing (like > over a double strand break), these repair systems can even recreate > missing data - a strategy which can fail but it is a last ditch effort > and often succeeds. > > So DNA repair is a huge evolutionary sucess?which relaibly carries > precious biological information forward in time, and the inherent > chemical and physical problems?evolution solved in order for that > relaibility?to occur are tremendous. Each type of DNA damage - base > adduct, strand scission, oxidation, dimerization, there are many more > - all have completely different chemistries, and each DNA repair > system deals with each one of these chemistries?eparately. It is truly > an amazing feat, one which you (or any living?organisim) literally > could not live without. > > Please. Respect for DNA repair! First, kudos for studying DNA repair. Second, you are being blinkered by the existing parameters of life. You know about Okazaki fragments, and presumably see it as a clever solution to the problem of how to copy a double-stranded molecule where each strand has an opposite orientation to the other. And so it is. A clever solution in a terrible setup. My perspective is that this is a horribly inefficient process, and if evolution had been able to go back over and undo then re-do things, it would have come up with a more efficient and less error-prone (yes, error-prone, John Clark is perfectly right about this) method, We are looking at the same thing from different perspectives, a bit like a neolithic boat-builder and a contemporary aviation engineer both looking at a deHavillant Comet and coming to completely opposite conclusions about how marvellous it is. Your very description of the different types of DNA damage, and the need for totally different strategies for addressing them, highlights how inefficient the process is, and how bad a medium for data-storage DNA is. No wonder it's so error-prone. Respect for DNA repair is like having respect for how quickly and perfectly a potter can produce pots. When you've seen nothing else, it's indeed impressive. When you've seen, or can even envisage, a modern pot factory, not so much. -- Ben Zaiboc From rocket at earthlight.com Thu May 21 17:47:31 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 13:47:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: I have a very funny cat. She is persistent. Every day, she tries to get between me and my book while I am reading, and she tries something different each time. She creeps up slowly. She backs onto it. She runs up and flops down across it. She brings me her toy and drops it onto my book. She wriggles over on her belly and puts her head in the middle of it. She tears across the room, coming to rest on my book. She is very creative. John, you're being my cat. You don't have to agree with me, which is totally fine. The marketplace of ideas and all that. Discussion is very valuable and ideally, leads to new thoughts on all sides. But I have said the following about a grillion times - a copy thinking it is me doesn't make it me. Of course a perfect copy (which I state, over and over, can not be done, so this is a thought experiment only) would think it is me, as I think I am me. But while I am thinking I am me, and Ms. Copy is thinking she is me, she is she and I am still and only me. See? Ms. Copy thinking she is me while I simultaneously think I am me does not make us one being. And we will bifurcate soon after that moment, being forevermore two separate entities with some of the same memories, but only from before the copy-point. And. if you die at the copy point and a copy is then made, when it comes online, it will think it is you - but you will still be dead. Another being thinking it is you does not magically make you come alive again. I'm sorry. To your second point, to wit: *And all biological systems, active or not, are made of atoms, and the **position and momentum of those atoms are the initial conditions*. That is true but incomplete. All biological systems are made of atoms AND are also their behaviour as the system evolves, becomes defined by unique hierarchical information, as I've previously stated ad nauseum, and if that isn't clear by now there are writings you can read out there, a few of which I've mentioned, before you continue to say the same objection to that over and over. I know "hierarchical information" isn't clear by itself. It's part of a large arena of knowledge (systems, neuroscience, complexity, quantum physics, and others). If you are interested, I think a great place to start reading about all this could be, maybe, a neuroscience text, a physiologial psych text, Jeff Hawkins work, nonlinear dynamics (Strogatz, definitely Strogatz), and quantum, especially Heisenburg - because you just cannot measure position AND momentum. I mean, that's a start, even just a few chapters in any of those books would be helpful to this discussion. To sum up, I'm stating that, IMHO: 1) A copy of you is not you. 2) Position and monentum of atoms is not enoght to make a copy AND you can't get that information anyway. It's a physical limt proven by Heisenburg, and I had nothing to do with it. -Regina ----------------------------- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 11:22:00 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:41 AM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I'm persistantly me, even though some of me was in that scone I ate with > John (lol).* When discussing this topic personal pronouns need to be handled as carefully as if they were made of nitroglycerin. Ms.You is persistently Regina because Ms.You remembers being Regina yesterday, and exactly precisely the same thing could be said about Ms.You's copy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 21 18:52:05 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 13:52:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: "To be a lover of humanity en masse requires a sedentary life at a great distance and an exclusive devotion to abstract ideas." Jacques Barzun bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu May 21 20:08:21 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 20:08:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: <5303e4d1-3b53-a30b-74b8-d0fe4405ae8d@zaiboc.net> References: <5303e4d1-3b53-a30b-74b8-d0fe4405ae8d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <413981387.2016131.1590091701600@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, May 21, 2020, 10:41:37 AM PDT, Ben via extropy-chat wrote:? On 21/05/2020 17:22, Re Rose wrote: [snip] > So DNA repair is a huge evolutionary sucess?which relaibly carries > precious biological information forward in time, and the inherent > chemical and physical problems?evolution solved in order for that > relaibility?to occur are tremendous. Each type of DNA damage - base > adduct, strand scission, oxidation, dimerization, there are many more > - all have completely different chemistries, and each DNA repair > system deals with each one of these chemistries?eparately. It is truly > an amazing feat, one which you (or any living?organisim) literally > could not live without. > > Please. Respect for DNA repair! [snip] > Your very description of the different types of DNA damage, and the need for totally different strategies for addressing them, highlights how inefficient the process is, and how bad a medium for data-storage DNA is. No wonder it's so error-prone. But the error rate that you and John complain about is an essential part of evolution. If DNA replication was 100% accurate then none of us would be here. Life would never have progressed beyond the RNA world or whatever the prototypical life scenario was. The ability to modulate the error rate and fine tune it over time and space is a feature of DNA-based wetware, and not a bug. Perfect fidelity is unnatural and changing environmental conditions will inevitably render any "perfect" organism extinct. Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 21 20:49:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 16:49:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 1:51 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> your second point, to wit: And all biological systems, active or not, > are made of atoms, and the position and momentum of those atoms are the > initial conditions. That is true but incomplete. All biological systems are > made of atoms AND are also their behaviour* > Animals move, so their behavior at the most fundamental layer can be described as how atoms change their position and momentum with time; although it's usually more convenient to think about such things not at the fundamental layer but at a higher level. > > *as the system evolves,* > Before stuff can evolve you need some stuff, and stuff is made of atoms. *> becomes defined by unique hierarchical information, as I've previously > stated ad nauseum,* > A hierarchy that always returns to atoms and their momentum when you get to the basement fundamental layer. *Always!* > *and if that isn't clear by now there are writings you can read out > there,* > I would be willing to bet my life that as long as I stay within the scientific method I will never ever find any writings "out there" about recording information in ways that can not be dealt with by Schrodinger's Wave Equation, and Schrodinger describes the probabilities that particles will have various positions and momentums. > *you just cannot measure position AND momentum.* > Sure you can, you can even measure one to infinite precision although if you do you will have no knowledge at all of the other. It is a fundamental limitation not just to nanotechnology and electronics but to EVERYTHING, including biology and all forms of life from viruses to whales to the human brain. And do you really think ASC has this limitation but Alcor's current method somehow manages to avoid it?! > *A copy of you is not you.* > You are at the instant of creation and will remain that way until THE TWO OF YOU start forming new memories that are different because THE TWO OF YOU are in different environments and are seeing different things; and THE TWO OF YOU could also diverge because of random quantum fluctuations. But however far THE TWO OF YOU go your separate ways BOTH OF YOU will have an equally valid claim to be called Regina. Sorry for all the capitalization but as I said before personal pronouns need to be handled as if they are made of nitroglycerin when on this topic. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Thu May 21 20:56:55 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 16:56:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <538c013babdd50a84a06ec51e688b35b@ultimax.com> Mayor DeBlasio encouraged people to use the subway too. Well, he's a P.O.S. for it. I've seen analysis in a webinar on mathematical epidemiology that the use of mass transit weighed an order of magnitude more (factor of 8, I think it was) the population density, which was the next most important factor in breakout. Think they'd have learned their lesson in 9/11 not to do sh*t like that. Idle thought: Has the identity of that nameless person on the P.A. (in the South Tower I think -- the one that was hit later but collapsed sooner) who told occupants to go back to their desks ever been revealed? K3 On 2020-05-21 10:05, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: >> Delay in Lockdown Led to at Least 36,000 More Deaths, Models Find >> >> John K Clark > > The mayor of New York City urged his people to stay at their jobs and > not panic. [snip] > spike From msd001 at gmail.com Thu May 21 21:44:00 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 17:44:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not even me. The superposition of identies that may be me or may have been me or will be me are collectively and ideally me but also not. You can as many dimensions and quantum echos as you'd like (as I'd like, as any ensemble of us would like) and still the definition will be incomplete. You can ask Hofstadter's GOD (GOD Over Djinn[1]) then, while waiting for infinite regress, you may encounter Godel's incompleteness theorem[2] - maybe decide that "I exist" is good enough even if you can pin down the nature of neither the "I" nor "existence" [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_acronym [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 21 22:11:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 15:11:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Virus testing In-Reply-To: <538c013babdd50a84a06ec51e688b35b@ultimax.com> References: <538c013babdd50a84a06ec51e688b35b@ultimax.com> Message-ID: <001f01d62fbc$c18ae230$44a0a690$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat >...I've seen analysis in a webinar on mathematical epidemiology that the use of mass transit weighed an order of magnitude more (factor of 8, I think it was) the population density, which was the next most important factor in breakout. >...Think they'd have learned their lesson in 9/11 not to do sh*t like that. >...K3 Hi K3, The blame game is something I will leave to others if they wish. Clearly there is plenty of blame to go around. In the meantime, I can see that we have enormous investments in those teeming anthills of humanity in which no practical means of transporting the masses in sufficient volume has yet been discovered. So let's ponder. We can imagine multiple parking lots about 30-50 km from city center, where one can drive in, park, get in an individualized pod of some kind, they roll onto the subway, never opening, always staying slightly positive pressure, ride to the station, pod rolls off, takes prole to office, rides elevator to the right place, pod rolls to office, she gets out with her shoes clean. We can imagine a 20 km radius circle where no motorized traffic is allowed, other than these kinds of rigs. We have no reason to think this is our last or even worst pandemic. But I can imagine going to enormous effort to save the infrastructure of those metro areas. From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 21 23:41:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 18:41:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heinlein Message-ID: Well well well. Thank Amazon. 'People who bought this also bought..." Well you've seen that. And guess what popped up? A never before published novel that parallels The Number of the Beast. https://smile.amazon.com/Pursuit-Pankera-Parallel-Novel-Universes/dp/1647100011/ref=pd_bxgy_2/134-1720482-3821542?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1647100011&pd_rd_r=5f8eafd9-b399-4918-9313-246eea47e686&pd_rd_w=7IrHP&pd_rd_wg=0eWyn&pf_rd_p=4e3f7fc3-00c8-46a6-a4db-8457e6319578&pf_rd_r=GD0ED0ANYT82QRDH7WG5&psc=1&refRID=GD0ED0ANYT82QRDH7WG5 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 22 10:57:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 06:57:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: <413981387.2016131.1590091701600@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5303e4d1-3b53-a30b-74b8-d0fe4405ae8d@zaiboc.net> <413981387.2016131.1590091701600@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 4:11 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> the error rate that you and John complain about is an essential part of > evolution.* True, and that is yet another reason why Evolution is a ridiculously silly way to get things done. Natural selection can't select for a helpful positive mutation if it doesn't exist in the gene pool, and the overwhelming majority of random changes to your genome would be strongly negative, and even the very rare positive changes are only slightly positive. That's because there are just more ways for something to work badly than the number of ways for something to work well, so it's very unlikely that hitting your car engine with a sledge hammer will improve its performance. It's why it took Evolution 3 billion years to go from inventing bacteria to inventing brains good enough to have a technology. It took a long time but now with brains there is a new guy in town, we only invented electronic computers about 70 years ago and look how far we've come. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 22 12:33:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 08:33:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 Message-ID: A new study from Harvard indicates that warmer weather and more humidity and UV exposure will only modestly slow down the spread of the virus. It all depends on the R value, the average number of people a infected person will pass on the disease to others, if it's less than 1 the virus will eventually die out. In Wuhan in the very early days of the epidemic before any social distancing took effect R was found to be about 3.5. And this new study suggests that the summer weather will likely reduce R by 43%, and that means R would still be way larger than 1. So that does not bode well for the recent rash of reopenings that have been urged by some politicians, by late summer or early fall we should know if this grim prediction was correct. Warmer weather alone will NOT be enough to fully contain the transmission of COVID-19 John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 22 13:01:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 06:01:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 >? that does not bode well for the recent rash of reopenings that have been urged by some politicians?John K Clark Some politicians may have their views, but over time, the citizens who are not politicians are increasingly deciding their lives must go on. They open in defiance of government orders. We see examples of it everywhere, and more every day. At some point, life must resume. Society cannot survive without its workers. Not everyone can do their work from home. Government influences us, but does not control us. Most of the world does not live under totalitarianism. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Fri May 22 13:10:09 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 08:10:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Proposed policies for the future of AI Message-ID: Here are some policies that I advocate for the future of AI: https://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~billh/g/human_freedom.html How do these fit with Extropian principles / point of view? From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 22 14:47:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:47:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 9:04 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> ? that does not bode well for the recent rash of reopenings that have >> been urged by some politicians > > > > *> Some politicians may have their views, but over time, the citizens who > are not politicians are increasingly deciding their lives must go on. * > That could very well be true, but it doesn't change the fact that if this study is correct it doesn't bode well for the recent rash of reopenings that have been urged by some politicians. And we will know by late summer or early fall if the Harvard prediction is correct, if it is then it also doesn't bode well for the politicians that advised people to go back to business as usual when the election is held in late fall. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 22 15:16:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 08:16:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 7:48 AM? On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 9:04 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> ? that does not bode well for the recent rash of reopenings that have been urged by some politicians > Some politicians may have their views, but over time, the citizens who are not politicians are increasingly deciding their lives must go on. >?That could very well be true, but it doesn't change the fact that if this study is correct it doesn't bode well for the recent rash of reopenings ? then it also doesn't bode well for the politicians that advised people to go back to business as usual when the election is held in late fall. John K Clark It isn?t about elections. It is about who pays for government. It doesn?t matter if it is this party or that party if all they are doing is figuring out which government employees go out the door in what order. It doesn?t even matter what form of government runs a country: in the long run all the same economic forces are at work: businesses (all over the world) create wealth and pay some of that to government. In the US, federal government revenue is way down. They respond by cutting back on support to states, but state revenues are also way down, so they cut back on support to counties, but county revenues are way down, so they cut back on support to city governments. Some cities get a cut of sales tax (mine does) so they defy county shutdown orders (as mine does.) Governments at all levels are being reminded of who pays the bills and how they pay the bills. It doesn?t matter which party is doing what: all the same rules apply in the long run. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri May 22 16:03:25 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:03:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The study is not correct. I don't know exactly how it's wrong, but I guarantee you that none of it's predictions will play out in reality to any significant degree, except possibly by blind coincidence. When you feed crap data into crap models, you get, at best, a vague narrative that is politically useful to the people who funded the study. Certainly nothing that reality is obligated to obey to any significant precision. On a more general note, model-based "science" simply isn't science. I thought 30 years of imminently impending climate apocalypse should have made this vividly clear. Like they say about the economists who have predicted 15 of the last 2 economic downturns, climate models have predicted literally thousands of the last zero global floods and dustbowls, and pandemic models have predicted tens of millions of the last hundred thousand COVID-adjacent deaths. Models work for predicting the positions of planets and comets, and the motions of spherical cows on frictionless planes in a vacuum. For everything else, you need a lab. On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 9:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, May 22, 2020 7:48 AM? > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 9:04 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > >> ? that does not bode well for the recent rash of reopenings that have > been urged by some politicians > > > > *> **Some politicians may have their views, but over time, the citizens > who are not politicians are increasingly deciding their lives must go on. * > > > > >?That could very well be true, but it doesn't change the fact that if > this study is correct it doesn't bode well for the recent rash of > reopenings ? then it also doesn't bode well for the politicians that > advised people to go back to business as usual when the election is held in > late fall. John K Clark > > > > > > It isn?t about elections. It is about who pays for government. It > doesn?t matter if it is this party or that party if all they are doing is > figuring out which government employees go out the door in what order. It > doesn?t even matter what form of government runs a country: in the long run > all the same economic forces are at work: businesses (all over the world) > create wealth and pay some of that to government. > > > > In the US, federal government revenue is way down. They respond by > cutting back on support to states, but state revenues are also way down, so > they cut back on support to counties, but county revenues are way down, so > they cut back on support to city governments. Some cities get a cut of > sales tax (mine does) so they defy county shutdown orders (as mine does.) > > > > Governments at all levels are being reminded of who pays the bills and how > they pay the bills. It doesn?t matter which party is doing what: all the > same rules apply in the long run. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 22 16:23:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 12:23:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:06 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The study is not correct. I don't know exactly how it's wrong, but I > guarantee you that none of it's predictions will play out in reality* > My apologies. I was not aware that Darin Sunley was a epidemiologist of such high regard that his opinion was more important than that of every other lesser epidemiologist in the world so we should bet our lives that Darin Sunley is correct, And after all, he gave us a guarantee. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri May 22 16:41:36 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:41:36 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If you can tell me /one/ quantitative detail an epidemiologist "of high esteem" has actually gotten /right/ over the past couple of months, I'll begin to care what they have to say. Right now they've cried wolf about a thousand times, so, I don't really care what they have to say. It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to not wear masks. It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to close beaches and parks and playgrounds, where no meaningful transmission occurs. It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists that local hospitals shouldn't test. It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists that tens of thousands of ventilators were desperately needed. It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to move COVID patients out of hospitals into nursing homes in New York. It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to "not panic" and keep crowded mass transit systems running. Do PLEASE tell us exactly what these people have actually gotten /right/ so far. On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 10:26 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:06 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> The study is not correct. I don't know exactly how it's wrong, but I >> guarantee you that none of it's predictions will play out in reality* >> > > My apologies. I was not aware that Darin Sunley was a epidemiologist of > such high regard that his opinion was more important than that of every > other lesser epidemiologist in the world so we should bet our lives that > Darin Sunley is correct, And after all, he gave us a guarantee. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri May 22 16:43:04 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:43:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: As near as I can tell, the primary requirement for being an "epidemiologist of high esteem" is an unfailing skill at predicting yesterday's weather. On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 10:41 AM Darin Sunley wrote: > If you can tell me /one/ quantitative detail an epidemiologist "of high > esteem" has actually gotten /right/ over the past couple of months, I'll > begin to care what they have to say. Right now they've cried wolf about a > thousand times, so, I don't really care what they have to say. > > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to not wear masks. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to close beaches and parks > and playgrounds, where no meaningful transmission occurs. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists that local hospitals > shouldn't test. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists that tens of thousands of > ventilators were desperately needed. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to move COVID patients out > of hospitals into nursing homes in New York. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to "not panic" and keep > crowded mass transit systems running. > > Do PLEASE tell us exactly what these people have actually gotten /right/ > so far. > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 10:26 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:06 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> The study is not correct. I don't know exactly how it's wrong, but I >>> guarantee you that none of it's predictions will play out in reality* >>> >> >> My apologies. I was not aware that Darin Sunley was a epidemiologist of >> such high regard that his opinion was more important than that of every >> other lesser epidemiologist in the world so we should bet our lives that >> Darin Sunley is correct, And after all, he gave us a guarantee. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 22 16:50:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 12:50:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 11:20 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> It isn?t about elections. * If the Harvard study is correct and a second wave of disease breaks out in early fall (and I sure hope it isn't correct because I could be in that wave) then the politicians who are now telling people to stop whining and just get back to work will feel it is very much about the election in late fall; or it least it will if the election is actually allowed to happen on November 3, and assuming the losing politicians don't declare the results of the election to be null and void. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 22 17:12:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:12:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 11:20 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > It isn?t about elections. If the Harvard study is correct and a second wave of disease breaks out in early fall (and I sure hope it isn't correct because I could be in that wave) then the politicians who are now telling people to stop whining and just get back to work ? John K Clark OK I see why we perceive things so differently. Politicians do not have any authority to compel people to either stop whining or to get back to work. Politicians have a limited authority to tell them to stay back from work, and no authority over whether or not they whine. Their power is one-way and limited. They closed businesses for a while, which turned out to be mostly advice rather than any legal authority (I don?t know of any state legislatures which passed laws enforcing governor?s orders (were there any?)) If the virus comes roaring back in the fall (a very real possibility) governments may strongly advise a new lockdown, but they will likely find they cannot or will not actually enforce it (governments everywhere will be having serious reductions in force by then (because of the current lockdown.)) More businesses will just stay open out of necessity. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 22 17:49:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 13:49:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 1:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *Politicians do not have any authority to compel people to either stop > whining or to get back to work. * > Nobody worker been sent to the gulag, at least not yet, but Republican politicians want workers fired if they refuse to go back to work, and getting fired during a pandemic is really scary because in the US if you don't have a job you don't have a health plan. To make matters worse Republicans have threatened to deny unemployment benefits from any worker who refuses to go back to work because he feels its unsafe, and have also pushed for new laws that prevent any employer from being sued if one of their workers gets sick or dies from unsanitary conditions. People will remember that and it could make a difference on November 3, assuming the election is not canceled by politicians who figure they won't win. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 22 18:20:57 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 11:20:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 6:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > the citizens who are not politicians are increasingly deciding their > lives must go on. > Yes, well, that's the problem. If the reports are correct, then reopening business as usual will mean that, for a large number of people, life won't go on. > Government influences us, but does not control us. > > How about common sense and a desire to continue living? It's not the government that's causing danger to lives here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 22 18:29:46 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Very few people are going to die outside of at risk groups. If you believe the CDC estimated CFRs, there is no reason to shut down entire economies: 2 2332.5 Symptomatic Case Fatality Ratio, stratified by age in years Source: Preliminary COVID-19 estimates, CDC 0-49: 0.0005 50-64: 0.002 65+: 0.013 Overall: 0.004 On Fri, May 22, 2020, 2:22 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 6:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> the citizens who are not politicians are increasingly deciding their >> lives must go on. >> > > Yes, well, that's the problem. If the reports are correct, then reopening > business as usual will mean that, for a large number of people, life won't > go on. > > >> Government influences us, but does not control us. >> >> > How about common sense and a desire to continue living? It's not the > government that's causing danger to lives here. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 22 18:32:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 11:32:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> > On Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 1:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Politicians do not have any authority to compel people to either stop whining or to get back to work. >?Nobody worker been sent to the gulag, at least not yet? Ja. We have a constitution. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? The anvil wears out the hammers. >? but Republican? Campaigning again John? Here? Why? >?politicians want workers fired if they refuse to go back to work? John, if they refuse to go back to work, they are already the equivalent of fired. What is the difference, if there are no paychecks coming? Businesses need people to work them, otherwise the businesses don?t get paid and cannot pay anyone. >? and getting fired during a pandemic is really scary? Ja. Any pandemic is really scary. >? because in the US if you don't have a job you don't have a health plan? Ja. Insurance companies spread their risk across corporations. >?To make matters worse Republicans? Campaigning again? Here? Why? >?have threatened to deny unemployment benefits from any worker who refuses to go back to work? Unemployment benefits are an insurance program. It cannot support those who fire themselves. Turns out it cannot support the others either: the system was never set up to handle the load it is under. >? have also pushed for new laws that prevent any employer from being sued? Suing employers is a bad idea. Their risk is already thru the roof. Employers are our friends. >? People will remember that and it could make a difference on November 3? Campaigning again John? Here? Why? >? assuming the election is not canceled by politicians who figure they won't win. John K Clark That is why politicians do not have the authority to cancel elections. New York tried to cancel a party primary, and learned they can?t even do that. This is ironic in a way, for the party is not obligated to nominate the winning candidate. The voters were only advising the party on who it wanted. Even that election could not be canceled. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 22 18:35:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 11:35:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007101d63067$d4ebdb80$7ec39280$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Government influences us, but does not control us. >?How about common sense and a desire to continue living? It's not the government that's causing danger to lives here. We have businesses around here which are staffed by illegal immigrants, and possibly are even owned by illegal immigrants. They are not eligible for benefits. Their businesses will fail if they stay closed. At some point, businesses must open and resume business in spite of the risk. We get that. This fact remains absolutely regardless of the government?s opinions on the matter. Every nation on the planet is facing the same problem, regardless of their form of government. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Fri May 22 19:20:25 2020 From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 12:20:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There was a Kickstarter began in early September of last year to get this published. I have a copy but have not read it yet because my to read list is very long. The information given during the kickstarter is that it starts similar to The Number of the Beast and then takes a different course. The text is supposedly based on a nearly completed early draft manuscript pieced together from the Heinlein papers. Theis is the short version of the history of the project those who want the fuller and more complete version can search it out online. Fred On 5/21/20 4:41 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Well well well.? Thank Amazon.? 'People who bought this also bought..." > Well you've seen that.? And guess?what popped up?? A never before > published novel that parallels The Number of the Beast. > > https://smile.amazon.com/Pursuit-Pankera-Parallel-Novel-Universes/dp/1647100011/ref=pd_bxgy_2/134-1720482-3821542?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1647100011&pd_rd_r=5f8eafd9-b399-4918-9313-246eea47e686&pd_rd_w=7IrHP&pd_rd_wg=0eWyn&pf_rd_p=4e3f7fc3-00c8-46a6-a4db-8457e6319578&pf_rd_r=GD0ED0ANYT82QRDH7WG5&psc=1&refRID=GD0ED0ANYT82QRDH7WG5 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 22 19:43:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 12:43:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] heinlein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002301d63071$411dfb90$c359f2b0$@rainier66.com> FRED! We wondered what the heck had become of you, me lad! We were worried: don't recall having heard from you since before Lee passed on, about four years ago. Hope all is well with you sir. Staying healthy and all that? spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of F. C. Moulton via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 12:20 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: F. C. Moulton Subject: Re: [ExI] heinlein There was a Kickstarter began in early September of last year to get this published. I have a copy but have not read it yet because my to read list is very long. The information given during the kickstarter is that it starts similar to The Number of the Beast and then takes a different course. The text is supposedly based on a nearly completed early draft manuscript pieced together from the Heinlein papers. Theis is the short version of the history of the project those who want the fuller and more complete version can search it out online. Fred On 5/21/20 4:41 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Well well well. Thank Amazon. 'People who bought this also bought..." > Well you've seen that. And guess what popped up? A never before > published novel that parallels The Number of the Beast. > > https://smile.amazon.com/Pursuit-Pankera-Parallel-Novel-Universes/dp/1 > 647100011/ref=pd_bxgy_2/134-1720482-3821542?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=164 > 7100011&pd_rd_r=5f8eafd9-b399-4918-9313-246eea47e686&pd_rd_w=7IrHP&pd_ > rd_wg=0eWyn&pf_rd_p=4e3f7fc3-00c8-46a6-a4db-8457e6319578&pf_rd_r=GD0ED > 0ANYT82QRDH7WG5&psc=1&refRID=GD0ED0ANYT82QRDH7WG5 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 22 21:52:56 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 22:52:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d99a893-8a52-5257-707e-f69d237e1181@zaiboc.net> On 22/05/2020 13:34,? Re Rose wrote: > I have said the following about a grillion times - a copy thinking it > is me doesn't make it me Well, you've certainly said it a number of times, but the odd thing is that you've never really explained why this should be true. I, and several others, think that a good-enough 'copy' (I'm becoming less keen on that word, because it leads to confused thinking, imo) has to be 'you'. The only alternative is if magical thinking is right, and supernatural phenomena? are actually real, instead of imaginary. Which I severely doubt. At the risk of repeating myself, I think that information is the only important thing, with respect to individual identity. Not atoms, not any mystical unspecified essence, just information. This means, inescapably, that if the information that constitutes the mind that is 'me', is duplicated or translated into another embodiment, then the mind that is me is duplicated or translated. This means that the totally unfamiliar and bizarre phenomenon of there being two or more 'you's is actually possible, even though it has never occurred before. The only thing to be determined is, what level of detail is good enough, and that's doubtless something that we'll find out in time. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Fri May 22 22:02:03 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 23:02:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23d4d682-db56-5967-8841-6a0d7cd9efce@zaiboc.net> On 22/05/2020 13:34, Stuart LaForge wrote: > the error rate that you and John complain about is an essential part of evolution. If DNA replication was 100% accurate then none of us would be here. Life would never have progressed beyond the RNA world or whatever the prototypical life scenario was. The ability to modulate the error rate and fine tune it over time and space is a feature of DNA-based wetware, and not a bug. Perfect fidelity is unnatural and changing environmental conditions will inevitably render any "perfect" organism extinct. This is perfectly true, and of course I'm not arguing otherwise. What I am saying is that regarding evolution as a perfect system is silly and that there are other, better ways of doing things. Evolution, biology and nature in general has done a marvellous but limited job so far, and now (or soon) it's time for something better. My analogy of evolution as an abusive parent stands. Without it, we wouldn't be here, but we need to get away from it asap. -- Ben Zaiboc From stathisp at gmail.com Fri May 22 22:04:06 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 08:04:06 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 23:03, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 > > > > >? that does not bode well for the recent rash of reopenings that have > been urged by some politicians?John K Clark > > > > > > Some politicians may have their views, but over time, the citizens who are > not politicians are increasingly deciding their lives must go on. They > open in defiance of government orders. We see examples of it everywhere, > and more every day. > > > > At some point, life must resume. Society cannot survive without its > workers. Not everyone can do their work from home. > > > > Government influences us, but does not control us. Most of the world does > not live under totalitarianism. > Eventually, people will go back to work. But if people are reluctant to go out and spend money because of fear if a deadly disease, jobs will be lost, and then people will be even more reluctant to go out and spend money, because their own job or their investments will be at risk. This is in addition to the direct effects of the deadly disease. Eventually some sort of equilibrium will be reached. It is the job of governments to try to tweak the equilibrium point to be more more favourable, since they have influence through regulation, spending and advertising. It isn?t obvious what the best course of action is, but they can only act on the best available advice. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 22 22:36:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 18:36:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Politicians do not have any authority to compel people to either stop > whining or to get back to work. * > >From history we have learned that dictators don't have the legal authority to do a lot of stuff, but they do it anyway. That's the difference between a law of nature and the law of the land. > >>?Nobody worker been sent to the gulag, at least not yet? > > > > *> Ja. We have a constitution. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? * > I'm absolutely certain we have a Second Law of Thermodynamics, but with a fascist party already controlling the Executive and Judicial branches and half of the Legislative branch I'm much less certain we still have a constitution. >? but Republican? > > > *> Campaigning again John? Here? Why?* > Because it's a fact that Republicans want workers fired if they refuse to go back to work in overcrowded high humidity factories, but Democrats and others who still retain a shred of compassion don't. In a survey of 130,578 meat plant workers 4,911 tested positive for COVID-19, but Trump issued a Executive Order on April 28 and ordered people to go back to work anyway and to stop being a pussy and face death like a man. As a result people are quite literally dying for a Big Mac. If I worked in such a factory I'd remember all that on November 3, if I was still alive on November 3 that is, and if there really is an election on November 3, and if the results of the November 3 election are not nullified by the fascist politicians who lost it. Executive Order >?To make matters worse Republicans? >> > > > > *> Campaigning again? Here? Why?* > Because it's a fact that Republicans want workers who refuse to go back to work in conditions that are obviously unsafe to be denied unemployment benefits, and Democrats and others who still retain a shred of compassion don't. > *the system was never set up to handle the load it is under.* > Right, so unless you own a guillotine factory you'd want to avoid a revolution that could cause a lot of unpleasantness, especially for the super mega ultra rich. Thus you had better find a new system that can work under this increased load as other countries have managed to do, and you had better do it mighty damn quick. *> Campaigning again John? Here? Why?* > Because it's a fact that Republicans want new laws that prevent any employer from being sued because a worker died from unsanitary conditions in a humid overcrowded meatpacking factory, and Democrats and others who still retain a shred of compassion don't. > > *politicians do not have the authority to cancel elections. * > You keep saying that! I know perfectly well that politicians do not have the authority to cancel elections, but I also know that historically nearly every dictator who ever lived started out as a politician or a military guy who canceled an election, or declared the results of an election to be invalid, or arranged a staged show election and got 99.99% of the vote. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 22 22:39:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 17:39:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: <23d4d682-db56-5967-8841-6a0d7cd9efce@zaiboc.net> References: <23d4d682-db56-5967-8841-6a0d7cd9efce@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Completely innocent and ignorant question: how far are we from examining a gene and predicting what it will do? If we could do that, we could design genes, splice them in and do our own evolution, eh? bill w On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 5:04 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 22/05/2020 13:34, Stuart LaForge wrote: > > the error rate that you and John complain about is an essential part > of evolution. If DNA replication was 100% accurate then none of us would be > here. Life would never have progressed beyond the RNA world or whatever the > prototypical life scenario was. The ability to modulate the error rate and > fine tune it over time and space is a feature of DNA-based wetware, and not > a bug. Perfect fidelity is unnatural and changing environmental conditions > will inevitably render any "perfect" organism extinct. > > This is perfectly true, and of course I'm not arguing otherwise. > What I am saying is that regarding evolution as a perfect system is > silly and that there are other, better ways of doing things. Evolution, > biology and nature in general has done a marvellous but limited job so > far, and now (or soon) it's time for something better. My analogy of > evolution as an abusive parent stands. Without it, we wouldn't be here, > but we need to get away from it asap. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 22 23:56:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 16:56:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:41 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Politicians do not have any authority to compel people to either stop whining or to get back to work. >?From history we have learned that dictators don't have the legal authority to do a lot of stuff, but they do it anyway. That's the difference between a law of nature and the law of the land? That?s why we don?t have one here. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? We are too. > Ja. We have a constitution. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? >? I'm much less certain we still have a constitution? No worries, John. I am certain enough to carry the both of us. >? but Republican? > Campaigning again John? Here? Why? >?Because it's a fact that Republicans want workers fired? How do you know the business owners who must hire people to run their factories and shops are any particular party? Do offer evidence please. It doesn?t matter which party is in charge. We know that US governments at all levels are going to be dealing with a huge reduction in revenue in the very term. I don?t see that it matters which party is in charge of tightening the belt: either way it has to happen. >? Trump issued a Executive Order on April 28 and ordered people to go back to work? Executive orders do not apply to people who do not work for the government. Here?s the order: https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-delegating-authority-dpa-respect-food-supply-chain-resources-national-emergency-caused-outbreak-covid-19/ I read thru it. I don?t see anything in there about ordering people to go back to work. This order is about delegation of authority, which contradicts your early comment about dictators. We don?t have one. If we did, he would be collecting authority, not delegating it. We have a constitution. Aren?t you glad of that? We are too. Executive Order >?To make matters worse Republicans? > Campaigning again? Here? Why? >?Because it's a fact that Republicans? Campaigning? Here? Are there even any ExI readers who live in Florida or Ohio? Those two states are going to tip the balance this time, the only two big swingers in the bunch. I don?t know if we even have anyone who doesn?t already live in a free state here. >?Right, so unless you own a guillotine factory you'd want to avoid a revolution that could cause a lot of unpleasantness? John, there is something wrong with your model. You insisted this big revolution would happen before now. I don?t see it. > Campaigning again John? Here? Why? >?Because it's a fact that Republicans want? Campaigning? Here? Didn?t you retire recently? You should go into politics. That seems to be your passion these days. > politicians do not have the authority to cancel elections. >?You keep saying that!... I sure do. It is still true. Authority is intentionally limited in the US. If politicians could cancel elections, they would. >?I know perfectly well that politicians do not have the authority to cancel elections? So why do you worry? >? but I also know that historically nearly every dictator? That?s why we don?t have one. We have a constitution. Dictators can cancel elections. Elected leaders cannot. >?who ever lived started out as a politician or a military guy who canceled an election, or declared the results of an election to be invalid, or arranged a staged show election and got 99.99% of the vote. John K Clark The above is further evidence we don?t have a dictator. John worry about something real, sheesh. We have plenty of real stuff to worry about currently. Regardless of government orders, businesses and shops will open anyway, and are already opening, such as Musk?s local car factory. This could trigger a new wave of the flu. Worry about that instead if you really need something to worry about. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Sat May 23 01:22:46 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 21:22:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Ben, I have explained, repeatedly, and in as much detail as I possibly am able to considering the limitations of explanations on a list, exactly why I believe a copy of you is not and can not be you. I also have described why I believe making a copy is not possible, and that a "good enough" copy is not "good enough" if your consciousness cannot access it. I've invoked other authors and suggested readings. I also suggested general areas I think are helpful to read up in for background, and for fun, because the ideas leading up to making and utilizing copies of individuals' neural coding patterns and corrrelated neural pathways is flat out fascinating. Magical thinking is NOT involved in my descriptions. I think it is magical thinking to imagine that your consciousness will leap over into another, separate agent that has a copy of your neural data. No one yet has said *how* that will happen, even though I have asked that question a grillion, maybe even a brillion times to this list. That's a lot of times. I've also said that while I agree that information is the most important thing to preserve, the information in a conscious being is not solely stored in the brain but throughout the corpus of the body, and not in mere atomic positions but within non-linear systems that have multiple possible equilibria but are in a specific equilibria. These become de-entrained (exactly as they do during aging process, but farther away from equilibria) and without initial boundary conditions it will not be possible for them to become re-entrained in the same equilibria. That essential information is not copiable, and cannot be retrieved. Reading the whole of what I wrote, I can do as I write it. I take time and I try to be thoughtful so as to communicate my ideas as clearly as I can in this forum. However, making sure you read what I wrote - that, I cannot do. May I say, throwing up ad-hominem objections, such as positing I have not explained my reasons when I have or saying I indulge in magical thinking when I do not, is not a studied and thoughtful parry. It is more of a drive-by opinioning. And, ps, I think this is a *very *important consideration for the cryonics community. If we throw our trust and research efforts behind uploading and copies and do not consider that the reanimated agents are not reanimiations of US, which is the goal, but in fact are independant agents - well, if we do that, we've thrown away our chance to actually be there in the future. It is a dire mistake to make. That is why I have put so much energy into my posts. But I am starting to feel like I have said everything several times now. No one has to agree but just consider how in the world you will come to occupy the consciouness of another agent who happens to have an upload of your information and maybe you will come to see things as I do. I would like all of us to get to see the future, and not to accidently leave it to our "copy-heirs" because we didn't take the time to think this through and decided that another being with our memories was "us", when it's clearly not. --Regina ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 22:52:56 +0100 From: Ben To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: <1d99a893-8a52-5257-707e-f69d237e1181 at zaiboc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 22/05/2020 13:34,? Re Rose wrote: > I have said the following about a grillion times - a copy thinking it > is me doesn't make it me Well, you've certainly said it a number of times, but the odd thing is that you've never really explained why this should be true. I, and several others, think that a good-enough 'copy' (I'm becoming less keen on that word, because it leads to confused thinking, imo) has to be 'you'. The only alternative is if magical thinking is right, and supernatural phenomena? are actually real, instead of imaginary. Which I severely doubt. At the risk of repeating myself, I think that information is the only important thing, with respect to individual identity. Not atoms, not any mystical unspecified essence, just information. This means, inescapably, that if the information that constitutes the mind that is 'me', is duplicated or translated into another embodiment, then the mind that is me is duplicated or translated. This means that the totally unfamiliar and bizarre phenomenon of there being two or more 'you's is actually possible, even though it has never occurred before. The only thing to be determined is, what level of detail is good enough, and that's doubtless something that we'll find out in time. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Sat May 23 02:06:31 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 22:06:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: Stuart, you hit the nail on the head! Yes, evolution is inextricably tied to error rate, and DNA transcription enzymes allowing a particular error rate (which varies from organism to organism) IS indeed a feature not a bug! Many have written on this, Manfred Eigen derived specific error rates that led to the so-called "error catastrophe". Ben, I don't think anyone (and certainly I did not mean to imply) said evolution is a "perfect" system. It is a damn good one though, and I am not awfully interested in getting away from it as "soon as possible" (what a great way to accidently break biochemistry) but I am in favor of helping with small, studied perturbations. --Regina ---------------------------- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 23:02:03 +0100 From: Ben To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Evolution Message-ID: <23d4d682-db56-5967-8841-6a0d7cd9efce at zaiboc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 22/05/2020 13:34, Stuart LaForge wrote: > the error rate that you and John complain about is an essential part of evolution. If DNA replication was 100% accurate then none of us would be here. Life would never have progressed beyond the RNA world or whatever the prototypical life scenario was. The ability to modulate the error rate and fine tune it over time and space is a feature of DNA-based wetware, and not a bug. Perfect fidelity is unnatural and changing environmental conditions will inevitably render any "perfect" organism extinct. This is perfectly true, and of course I'm not arguing otherwise. What I am saying is that regarding evolution as a perfect system is silly and that there are other, better ways of doing things. Evolution, biology and nature in general has done a marvellous but limited job so far, and now (or soon) it's time for something better. My analogy of evolution as an abusive parent stands. Without it, we wouldn't be here, but we need to get away from it asap. -- Ben Zaiboc [ExI] Essential Upload Data -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rocket at earthlight.com Sat May 23 02:32:27 2020 From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 22:32:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data Message-ID: I agree with Darin, the Harvard study is highly unlikely to be correct, GIGO and all that. Nothing that any "esteemed scientist" has said so far has had any acquaintance with the reality of this pandemic. Models are highly malleable, by adjusting parameters within the model you can take any model and make it say whatever you wish. AI is subject to this as well. Since the parameters are hidden and it is often unclear to non-users what physical property the parameters control, this is an easy way to dupe the public. Back when I was trying to understand published climate modelling tools, I found a paper on one of the models used by gov't (no, I don't remember the name) and it had *over 48 parameters*!! I remember my astonishment that the paper (which was publicly available, not an internal article) described the parameters as being able to be "adjusted to have model predictions that fit proposed data". The parameters were so numerous that they were named by alphabet letters - A, B, C...Z and then AA, BB, ... ZZ. So - models are difficult and subject to meddling, and bigly caution is advised before trusting them IMHO. --Regina ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:43:04 -0600 From: Darin Sunley To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" As near as I can tell, the primary requirement for being an "epidemiologist of high esteem" is an unfailing skill at predicting yesterday's weather. On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 10:41 AM Darin Sunley wrote: > If you can tell me /one/ quantitative detail an epidemiologist "of high > esteem" has actually gotten /right/ over the past couple of months, I'll > begin to care what they have to say. Right now they've cried wolf about a > thousand times, so, I don't really care what they have to say. > > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to not wear masks. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to close beaches and parks > and playgrounds, where no meaningful transmission occurs. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists that local hospitals > shouldn't test. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists that tens of thousands of > ventilators were desperately needed. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to move COVID patients out > of hospitals into nursing homes in New York. > It was the advice of esteemed epidemiologists to "not panic" and keep > crowded mass transit systems running. > > Do PLEASE tell us exactly what these people have actually gotten /right/ > so far. > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 10:26 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:06 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> The study is not correct. I don't know exactly how it's wrong, but I >>> guarantee you that none of it's predictions will play out in reality* >>> >> >> My apologies. I was not aware that Darin Sunley was a epidemiologist of >> such high regard that his opinion was more important than that of every >> other lesser epidemiologist in the world so we should bet our lives that >> Darin Sunley is correct, And after all, he gave us a guarantee. >> >> John K Clark >> ______________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 23 03:00:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 20:00:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004801d630ae$5407ac00$fc170400$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Re Rose via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data >?I agree with Darin, the Harvard study is highly unlikely to be correct, GIGO and all that. Nothing that any "esteemed scientist" has said so far has had any acquaintance with the reality of this pandemic. >?Models are highly malleable, by adjusting parameters within the model you can take any model and make it say whatever you wish. AI is subject to this as well. Since the parameters are hidden and it is often unclear to non-users what physical property the parameters control, this is an easy way to dupe the public. ? Hi Regina, ja, this is the nature of exponential models: they have an enormous span in their predictions. This looks like a really good site to me: https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america >?So - models are difficult and subject to meddling, and bigly caution is advised before trusting them IMHO. --Regina ------------------------------ No one really knows what the heck is going to happen. It is easy to envision having the virus slosh around at a low level over the summer then really come back in the fall, November and December, the usual flu season. I can envision we will handle it differently the second time if it comes back: most governments will have concluded that a shutdown isn?t really a viable option. It polarizes their societies too much as it has in the US: it creates a great divide between those still getting their paychecks and those who do not. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat May 23 04:04:15 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 21:04:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 Message-ID: John Clark wrote: snip > Because it's a fact that Republicans want workers fired if they refuse to go back to work in overcrowded high humidity factories, I am more sympathetic to John than I am to Spike on this general topic. However, I suspect that I am the *only* person on this list who has spent time in a meatpacking plant. Back in the 1970s, I installed a computer scale in the (now defunct) pork processing line in Dubuque, Iowa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubuque_Packing_Company It is also possible I am the only person here who has butchered hogs and other animals. https://space.nss.org/wp-content/uploads/L5-News-1979-03.pdf Minor correction though, high humidity is thought to reduce the spread of COVID-19. Unfortunately, cold is thought to increase transmission, and packing plants are cold. snip > . In a survey of 130,578 meat plant workers 4,911 tested positive for COVID-19, but Trump issued a Executive Order on April 28 and ordered people to go back to work anyway and to stop being a pussy and face death like a man. As a result people are quite literally dying for a Big Mac. Not trying to run down the seriousness of this, but that's about 4%, which is roughly the same percentage of people in LA who have already had COVID-19. As far as I know, the executive order has been ignored, the plants were shut down and are being modified to reduce COVID 19 transmission. Sadly, installing barriers between work stations probably will not help much. The workers live in dense, often multigenerational housing and carpool to work so they have multiple other ways they can be infected. People who work in these packing plants have about the same risk of being infected as people in retail. They tend to be relatively young, so the workers themselves are not at a very high risk of dying. But if they have other medical problems or when they take it home to parents, that's a problem. Of course, unless a vaccine becomes available, we will *all* run the same risk of getting COVID eventually. The consequences for older folks (me for example) are dire (about 30% death rate for my age bracket). Keith From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat May 23 05:27:20 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 05:27:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: <5303e4d1-3b53-a30b-74b8-d0fe4405ae8d@zaiboc.net> <413981387.2016131.1590091701600@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1048871160.2497689.1590211640667@mail.yahoo.com> On Friday, May 22, 2020, 03:58:56 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 4:11 PM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat wrote: >> the error rate that you and John complain about is an essential part of evolution. > True, and that is yet another reason why Evolution is a ridiculously silly way to get things done. Natural selection can't select for a helpful positive mutation if it doesn't exist in the gene pool, and the overwhelming majority of random changes to your genome would be strongly negative, and even the very rare positive changes are only slightly positive.? That's because there are just more ways for something to work badly than the number of ways for something to work well, so it's very unlikely that hitting your car engine with a sledge hammer will improve its performance. It is true that deleterious mutations are more common than beneficial ones. It is the price that life pays for searching fitness-space for greener pastures on the other side of the valley of death. That being said, automotive engines display a different sort of complexity than living systems. The complexity of the car engine is imposed upon it a top-down fashion. Because of that, the engine's parts are very specialized and essential. This has the effect of making the engine brittle and failure-prone.? Living things, on the other hand display a bottom-up emergent complexity that results in a robust system with expendable redundant parts that can change their specialization to compensate for damaged and missing parts. I think that living things of comparable mass to a car engine would be able to fare getting hit by a sledge hammer better than a car engine. When a machine loses a cog, it ceases to function. When an animal loses a leg, it learns to run around without it. > It's why it took Evolution 3 billion years to go from inventing bacteria to inventing brains good enough to have a technology. It took a long time but now with brains there is a new guy in town, we only invented electronic computers about 70 years ago and look how far we've come. https://neurophilosophy.wordpress.com/2006/12/04/the-incredible-case-of-phineas-gage/ In 1848, a railroad worker named Phineas Gage had a three foot iron bar blasted completely through his skull and brain by an explosive charge. Mr. Gage nonetheless continued to function quite well actually. My laptop or most technology today could not survive that. I am not saying that technology might not someday get there. It just isn't there yet. Stuart LaForge From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat May 23 05:47:31 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 05:47:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: <23d4d682-db56-5967-8841-6a0d7cd9efce@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <1403965406.2503827.1590212851646@mail.yahoo.com> On Friday, May 22, 2020, 03:45:07 PM PDT, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? > Completely?innocent and ignorant question:? how far are we from examining a gene and predicting what it will do?? If we could do that, we could design genes, splice them in and do our own evolution, eh?? bill w We are further along than we were when I was in grad school but we are not quite there yet. Figuring out the function of a gene based on its sequence data is largely based upon predicting what shape the resulting RNA or protein will fold into. We have had some success at this with different approaches, but none of these approaches has been terribly reliable across all genes. Here is a slideshow that kind of summarizes the current state of the art. http://www.sfu.ca/~eemberly/phys347/lectures/5_RNA_Protein_folding.pdf Stuart LaForge From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat May 23 05:56:40 2020 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 05:56:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1648591395.2517090.1590213400529@mail.yahoo.com> On Friday, May 22, 2020, 07:07:43 PM PDT, Re Rose via extropy-chat wrote:? >Stuart, you hit the nail on the?head! Yes, evolution is inextricably tied to error rate, and DNA transcription enzymes?allowing a particular error rate (which varies from organism?to organism) IS indeed a feature not a bug! Many have written on this, Manfred Eigen derived specific error rates that led to the so-called "error catastrophe". Yup not only do different organisms have different mutation rates but mutation rates can change fro gene to gene in a single organism. For example, the genes expressed in the human brain are mutating faster than most other human genes. And our lymphocytes have the ability to deliberately mutate their antigen receptor genes, such as antibodies, within the lifetime of single cell, in order to keep up with mutating bacteria and viruses and protect us from infections. Stuart LaForge From ben at zaiboc.net Sat May 23 09:19:08 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 10:19:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c6d769-8f8a-9b2f-a42b-3281f601719c@zaiboc.net> On 23/05/2020 00:56, bill w wrote: > Completely?innocent and ignorant question:? how far are we from > examining a gene and predicting what it will do?? If we could do that, > we could design genes, splice them in and do our own evolution, eh Bill, I'd say we are very, very far from this, in general, when faced with an unfamiliar gene. When faced with a familiar one, where we already know what it will do under specific conditions, we can probably tell that changes to it will make it dysfunctional. One of the problems is that genes are not as simple as they are usually made out to be. A 'gene' is just a sequence of DNA that codes for a protein, but that's just the beginning of things, and is not even strictly true in many cases. A gene can code for a fragment of a protein. Or a fragment of a number of different proteins. Or the precursor to one or several proteins, or slightly different versions of the same protein, depending on how its transcripted RNA is cut up into smaller bits, and recombined with some of these bits, or bits from other genes... Then, the end-product of translating this RNA into a protein often goes on to do different jobs in different places under different circumstances. Finally (or probably not finally, there may well be other mechanisms at work that I'm not aware of), the gene is subject to control over if and when it's expressed at all, by other stretches of DNA (usually 'non-coding' DNA), and chemical groups that sit on the DNA strand (this is what's known as epigenetics), which are themselves gene products, which are subject to control... And so-on. There is even evidence that the same stretch of DNA can code for more than one thing, with what you get depending on where you start (frame-shifting), a little bit like this string of letters representing different sentences, depending on where you start, if you make the sentences by selecting every third letter: AATRBWEIODGECDGAOGRGS. Genetics is full of tricks like this. It's basically a massive spaghetti program, written in a language we only partially understand. Predicting what one gene will do is like predicting what will happen if you change one variable in a monolithic, multi-million-line program written in BASIC, with heavy reliance on GoTo statements. In fact, I'd say it's worse than this. It's probably no more possible to tell what a single unknown gene will do that it is to tell what a particular unknown pattern of cells will do in Conway's Game of Life. The only way to find out is to run the program and see what happens. So we'd have to have a massive simulation of all the biochemistry of an entire organism before we could tell what a single gene does, and we are a very long way from that. This is why no-one has made more than trivial progress with genetic engineering to produce novel features. People talk excitedly about using CRISPR to give people things like an extra thumb, or extend our vision into the ultraviolet. We have no? clue how to do things like this, and we would be fumbling in the dark in a room full of mantraps to even try it. I very much doubt that genetic engineering is the way to enhance ourselves in significant ways. I hope I'm wrong (because it would mean that we are, collectively, MUCH cleverer than I suspect we are), but I have severe doubts. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 23 12:11:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 08:11:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: <1048871160.2497689.1590211640667@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5303e4d1-3b53-a30b-74b8-d0fe4405ae8d@zaiboc.net> <413981387.2016131.1590091701600@mail.yahoo.com> <1048871160.2497689.1590211640667@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:30 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > It is true that deleterious mutations are more common than beneficial > ones.* Deleterious mutations are astronomically more common and many of them are lethal; while the super rare beneficial mutations are only slightly beneficial. And that's one reason Evolution is so agonizingly slow. * > It is the price that life pays for searching fitness-space for greener > pastures on the other side of the valley of death.* And that price was so large that there was huge evolutionary pressure to find a better way to make good behavioral decisions in a quickly changing environment and to make those decisions rapidly. And so Evolution invented brains, although it took it over 3 billion years to do so. *> That being said, automotive engines display a different sort of > complexity than living systems. The complexity of the car engine is imposed > upon it a top-down fashion.* That's true but the fundamental difference between a car engine and a horse's muscle is not in the top-down vs bottom-up distinction, it's between random mutation and natural selection vs intelligent design. And I'm not talking about God, He didn't invent the car engine. * > In 1848, a railroad worker named Phineas Gage had a three foot iron bar > blasted completely through his skull and brain by an explosive charge. Mr. > Gage nonetheless continued to function quite well actually. My laptop or > most technology today could not survive that.* He didn't function quite well. Mr. Gage's personality changed dramatically after his accident, before it he was described as a friendly careful and rather straight laced man, after it he was described as unfriendly, fitful, irreverent, capricious and indulged in the "*grossest profanity*". He also suffered from epileptic seizures until one eventually killed him. When my computer starts behaving insanely I just turn it off and then turn it back on and 99% of the time that simple reboot fixes the problem, but unfortunatly there was no way to do that to Mr.Gage. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 23 12:18:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 08:18:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: <1403965406.2503827.1590212851646@mail.yahoo.com> References: <23d4d682-db56-5967-8841-6a0d7cd9efce@zaiboc.net> <1403965406.2503827.1590212851646@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:50 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Figuring out the function of a gene based on its sequence data is > largely based upon predicting what shape the resulting RNA or protein will > fold into.* That's one reason I'm so excited about Quantum Computers, RNA and Protein folding is exactly the sort of problem they should be good at. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 23 12:45:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 08:45:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: <00c6d769-8f8a-9b2f-a42b-3281f601719c@zaiboc.net> References: <00c6d769-8f8a-9b2f-a42b-3281f601719c@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:22 AM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > This is why no-one has made more than trivial progress with genetic > engineering to produce novel features. People talk excitedly about using > CRISPR to give people things like an extra thumb, or extend our vision into > the ultraviolet. We have no clue how to do things like this,* > Well, we know how to make macro changes in fruit flies, such as sprouting antennas from their eyes, and to make flies that have no eyes at all, and to make a extra pair of legs grow out of the head. Fruit flies have 14,000 genes while humans only have slightly more, 24,000. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 23 13:37:18 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 09:37:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 7:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >?From history we have learned that dictators don't have the legal >> authority to do a lot of stuff, but they do it anyway. That's the >> difference between a law of nature and the law of the land? > > > > > *That?s why we don?t have one here. *Aren?t you glad we have a > constitution? We are too. > And that's why in the entire history of the world no country with a constitution has ever slipped into dictatorship...oh waite ... > > *I don?t see that it matters which party is in charge of tightening the > belt: either way it has to happen.* > Yeah yeah because otherwise deficit spending will destroy the economy, the same song and dance I've been hearing all my life and all my father's life too, and it's starting to get a little old. > > *Authority is intentionally limited in the US. * > It's very odd, the way you keep repeating that over and over like a mantra it's almost as if you think it's important. > * > Regardless of government orders, businesses and shops will open > anyway, and are already opening, such as Musk?s local car factory. * > Speaking of Elon Musk, he predicted on March 19 that there would be ?*close to zero new cases*? in the U.S. ?*by end of April*". Yesterday was May 22 and there were 24,197 new cases in the U.S. bringing the total of sick people to 1,647,043 with 97,687 dead. Worldwide there have been 5,336,352 cases and 340,613 dead. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 23 15:54:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 10:54:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] app Message-ID: I got some spam (?) called the Route app, for tracking online orders. Anyone know about this? Good, bad, spam? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 23 17:46:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 10:46:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 7:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > That?s why we don?t have one here. Aren?t you glad we have a constitution? We are too. >?And that's why in the entire history of the world no country with a constitution has ever slipped into dictatorship...oh waite ... Not just any constitution will do. It must be one with a Bill of Rights. Aren?t you glad we have a Bill of Rights? We are too. The founders insisted on it. So do we. > I don?t see that it matters which party is in charge of tightening the belt: either way it has to happen. >?Yeah yeah because otherwise deficit spending will destroy the economy, the same song and dance I've been hearing all my life and all my father's life too, and it's starting to get a little old? If runaway deficits will never hurt us, have you ever figured out why we are paying taxes at all? If so, do share please. I have a theory: deficit spending will hurt us, and already is hurting us. We have far less capacity to deal with the revenue drop in an emergency, such as a pandemic. > Authority is intentionally limited in the US. >?It's very odd, the way you keep repeating that over and over like a mantra it's almost as if you think it's important? It is important. It is why we have never had a dictator. Can you think of any other explanation? Do share please. > Regardless of government orders, businesses and shops will open anyway, and are already opening, such as Musk?s local car factory. >?Speaking of Elon Musk, he predicted on March 19 that there would be ?close to zero new cases? in the U.S. ?by end of April". Yesterday was May 22 and there were 24,197 new cases in the U.S?John K Clark The new cases are not in Fremont CA. The car factory was closed by the county of Alameda, which is still getting about 50-80 new cases a day. But most (nearly all) of these of these are in Berkeley and Oakland, up that way. We know that the Berkeley crowd packs em in like teenagers in the back seat of a VW, and Oakland, well... let?s not go there. I jump at every opportunity to not go to Oakland: too dangerous. But Musk doesn?t do that in his factory. If you take a tour (I highly recommend even if only a virtual tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9kK0_7x08 ) you see that the factory is far less crowded than a typical WalMart during 0600 Tuesday morning Geezer Hour. The city of Oakland should not be dictating to Fremont, with fundamentally different conditions. Shutdown rules should be made at the city level. John your observation is exactly the problem: generalizing to the entire country a problem concentrated in the mega metropolitan areas, problems they have brought on themselves by continuing to build skyward with those absurd population densities. Fremont isn?t that way: there you find clean, extended suburbs where people are taking the appropriate precautions, where the virus isn?t a big threat. But a general shutdown is a big threat: a lot bigger than the virus. I live near Fremont: 26 cases, no fatalities. Some local businesses never did close. The local constables did not intervene. Are you still getting your paychecks during the shutdown? Factory workers do not, which is why they went to work in defiance of Alameda county health department?s orders. Factory workers and shop owners need their paychecks and sales: small business employees need their paychecks. Try to see it from their perspective. Here?s a modest proposal: if you are one who is still getting your paychecks, argue for ending the shutdown. If you are one whose paychecks came to an end with the shutdown, argue for continuing the shutdown. Then both will have greater credibility. My paychecks are still coming, and I think it is time to end the shutdown, forthwith. It is now doing more harm than good, in my view. Let the metro areas continue doing as they see fit of course (New York must stay shut down for now (my condolences to those who inhabit those overcrowded places (but you don?t need to live there (lotsa open space out here (don?t worry, you won?t turn into an ignorant redneck if you move out of there and come here (well, not right away (your children might (heh, just kidding (sorta.))))))) John I will freely offer you a congratulations of sorts. You managed to state your case without any overt political content. As soon as the name of any politician or party comes into a post, we recognize the true intent: it is a pointless campaign. Your latest post didn?t have it. Well done indeed. Do strive to make all your posts focus on the problem rather than promoting a particular political view. People are more likely to consider your arguments. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 23 17:56:06 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:56:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: re Oakland and no reason to go there: "There's no there there." Gertrude Stein. bill w On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 12:48 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 7:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *That?s why we don?t have one here. *Aren?t you glad we have a > constitution? We are too. > > > > >?And that's why in the entire history of the world no country with a > constitution has ever slipped into dictatorship...oh waite ... > > > > Not just any constitution will do. It must be one with a Bill of Rights. > Aren?t you glad we have a Bill of Rights? We are too. The founders > insisted on it. So do we. > > > > > *I don?t see that it matters which party is in charge of tightening the > belt: either way it has to happen.* > > > > >?Yeah yeah because otherwise deficit spending will destroy the > economy, the same song and dance I've been hearing all my life and all my > father's life too, and it's starting to get a little old? > > > > If runaway deficits will never hurt us, have you ever figured out why we > are paying taxes at all? If so, do share please. > > > > I have a theory: deficit spending will hurt us, and already is hurting > us. We have far less capacity to deal with the revenue drop in an > emergency, such as a pandemic. > > > *Authority is intentionally limited in the US. * > > > > >?It's very odd, the way you keep repeating that over and over like a > mantra it's almost as if you think it's important? > > > > It is important. It is why we have never had a dictator. Can you think > of any other explanation? Do share please. > > > > > > *> **Regardless of government orders, businesses and shops will open > anyway, and are already opening, such as Musk?s local car factory. * > > > > >?Speaking of Elon Musk, he predicted on March 19 that there would be ?*close > to zero new cases*? in the U.S. ?*by end of April*". Yesterday was May 22 > and there were 24,197 new cases in the U.S?John K Clark > > > > > > The new cases are not in Fremont CA. The car factory was closed by the > county of Alameda, which is still getting about 50-80 new cases a day. But > most (nearly all) of these of these are in Berkeley and Oakland, up that > way. We know that the Berkeley crowd packs em in like teenagers in the > back seat of a VW, and Oakland, well... let?s not go there. I jump at > every opportunity to not go to Oakland: too dangerous. > > > > But Musk doesn?t do that in his factory. If you take a tour (I highly > recommend even if only a virtual tour: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9kK0_7x08 ) you see that the factory is > far less crowded than a typical WalMart during 0600 Tuesday morning Geezer > Hour. The city of Oakland should not be dictating to Fremont, with > fundamentally different conditions. Shutdown rules should be made at the > city level. > > > > John your observation is exactly the problem: generalizing to the entire > country a problem concentrated in the mega metropolitan areas, problems > they have brought on themselves by continuing to build skyward with those > absurd population densities. Fremont isn?t that way: there you find clean, > extended suburbs where people are taking the appropriate precautions, where > the virus isn?t a big threat. But a general shutdown is a big threat: a > lot bigger than the virus. I live near Fremont: 26 cases, no fatalities. > Some local businesses never did close. The local constables did not > intervene. > > > > Are you still getting your paychecks during the shutdown? Factory workers > do not, which is why they went to work in defiance of Alameda county health > department?s orders. Factory workers and shop owners need their paychecks > and sales: small business employees need their paychecks. Try to see it > from their perspective. > > > > Here?s a modest proposal: if you are one who is still getting your > paychecks, argue for ending the shutdown. If you are one whose paychecks > came to an end with the shutdown, argue for continuing the shutdown. Then > both will have greater credibility. My paychecks are still coming, and I > think it is time to end the shutdown, forthwith. It is now doing more harm > than good, in my view. Let the metro areas continue doing as they see fit > of course (New York must stay shut down for now (my condolences to those > who inhabit those overcrowded places (but you don?t need to live there > (lotsa open space out here (don?t worry, you won?t turn into an ignorant > redneck if you move out of there and come here (well, not right away (your > children might (heh, just kidding (sorta.))))))) > > > > John I will freely offer you a congratulations of sorts. You managed to > state your case without any overt political content. As soon as the name > of any politician or party comes into a post, we recognize the true intent: > it is a pointless campaign. Your latest post didn?t have it. Well done > indeed. Do strive to make all your posts focus on the problem rather than > promoting a particular political view. People are more likely to consider > your arguments. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 23 18:17:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 11:17:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00cc01d6312e$60ec3dc0$22c4b940$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 re Oakland and no reason to go there: "There's no there there." Gertrude Stein. bill w I disagree! There is a there there. There is simultaneously too much there there and not enough there there. If you mean with the term ?there? the square meters of ground space there, then there is not enough there there. If you use the term ?there? to mean population, there is way too much there there. If ?there? means both, then there is simultaneously not enough there and too much there there. Their need is for more there there or less there there, depending on how you use ?there?. Oakland is too crowded. San Francisco is worse. Of course these are great places for a virus to move to and raise a big family. Their problem is in having plenty of virus families there. As we struggle in our current predicament, do think of ways to salvage the big cities, to get proles in and out of that place safely. I think there are ways to do it and save nearly all the current infrastructure. The lithium battery has opened a lot of possibilities. Think of a small personal vehicle, battery powered, which completely encloses a prole, capable of guiding itself onto a train. Think of something that would take up no more space than a wheelchair. It doesn?t need to go fast (top speed of about 15 km/hr is plenty (for people on foot that is a practical cruising speed.)) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 23 18:32:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 13:32:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <00cc01d6312e$60ec3dc0$22c4b940$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <00cc01d6312e$60ec3dc0$22c4b940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Rather than cars, I think of food. Already existing in places are highrise buildings where produce is grown under sun and artificial light. Why not combine the building with apartments for the workers there? Why not build places where you just walk across the hall to go to work? Support staff will live in basements, which can be several stories deep. Solves many problems such as transportation to work. Ban private vehicles - use all public buses and trains. I am quite sure that I did not steal these ideas from anyone and also sure that they are not unique. bill w On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 > > > > re Oakland and no reason to go there: "There's no there there." Gertrude > Stein. > > > > bill w > > > > > > I disagree! There is a there there. There is simultaneously too much > there there and not enough there there. If you mean with the term ?there? > the square meters of ground space there, then there is not enough there > there. If you use the term ?there? to mean population, there is way too > much there there. If ?there? means both, then there is simultaneously not > enough there and too much there there. Their need is for more there there > or less there there, depending on how you use ?there?. > > > > Oakland is too crowded. San Francisco is worse. Of course these are > great places for a virus to move to and raise a big family. Their problem > is in having plenty of virus families there. > > > > As we struggle in our current predicament, do think of ways to salvage the > big cities, to get proles in and out of that place safely. I think there > are ways to do it and save nearly all the current infrastructure. The > lithium battery has opened a lot of possibilities. Think of a small > personal vehicle, battery powered, which completely encloses a prole, > capable of guiding itself onto a train. Think of something that would take > up no more space than a wheelchair. It doesn?t need to go fast (top speed > of about 15 km/hr is plenty (for people on foot that is a practical > cruising speed.)) > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 23 19:27:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:27:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <00cc01d6312e$60ec3dc0$22c4b940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010901d63138$40fa3f80$c2eebe80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 11:33 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 >?Rather than cars, I think of food. Already existing in places are highrise buildings where produce is grown under sun and artificial light. Why not combine the building with apartments for the workers there? Why not build places where you just walk across the hall to go to work? Support staff will live in basements, which can be several stories deep. Solves many problems such as transportation to work. Ban private vehicles - use all public buses and trains. I am quite sure that I did not steal these ideas from anyone and also sure that they are not unique. bill w General answer: most people who want to raise a family do not want to do that under those conditions. Common pattern: people have a high-voltage career in one of the city-center high rise office buildings, and commute to the suburbs. I am thinking of ways to enable that. Drive a personal car to a staging area, get on board one of these electric pods, ride that the last 5-10 km. I am viewing it from an engineering point of view. This would include such practical challenges such as having these individual pods go into a subway tunnel, then roll aboard a moving platform, like an escalator, flat. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 23 19:34:27 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 15:34:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 9:26 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > a copy is not possible, and that a "good enough" copy is not "good > enough" if your consciousness cannot access it. * You've got it backwards, your consciousness does not access your brain, your brain produces consciousness. Mind, aka consciousness, is what a brain does. That's why neither "Rose" nor "Regina" are nouns, they are both adjectives and synonyms for the same attribute. *> Magical thinking is NOT involved in my descriptions. I think it is > magical thinking to imagine that your consciousness will leap over into > another, separate agent that has a copy of your neural data. No one yet has > said how that will happen, even though I have asked that question a > grillion, maybe even a brillion times to this list. That's a lot of times.* > First of all I've told you a trillion times not to exaggerate. Second of all consciousness does not leap from one brain to another and doesn't leap at all; but if consciousness is just the way data feels like when it is being intelligently processed, which it must be if Darwinian Evolution managed to produce a conscious being like me, then 2 brains processing identical information will be producing an identical consciousness. *> May I say, throwing up ad-hominem objections, such as positing I have > not explained my reasons when I have or saying I indulge in magical > thinking when I do not, is not a studied and thoughtful parry. It is more > of a drive-by opinioning. * > I think you're being unfair to Ben Zaiboc, he was attacking your ideas not you personally. And Rose the man was right, your ideas about encoding information non-physically and the distinctions about when you are you and when you are not you are unscientific and aren't even consistent. > *And, ps, I think this is a very important consideration for the cryonics > community.* > It is indeed very important, and this relic of 19th century vitalism is epidemic even at Alcor and is holding back progress, so they still haven't switched to a preservation process that is demonstratively superior. I can only hope that the old process is good enough. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 23 20:04:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 15:04:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <010901d63138$40fa3f80$c2eebe80$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <00cc01d6312e$60ec3dc0$22c4b940$@rainier66.com> <010901d63138$40fa3f80$c2eebe80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, you wanted cheap. Living in a basement is not anyone's idea of a white picket fence and a dog. But you are close to city parks and other entertainments, which you are not in the suburbs or further out where the lower classes live because of the high cost of living closer. You are talking about the upper crust, eh? Forty acres and a mule were the dream once. Now it's half an acre and a miniature donkey. (or, in the paper today, living in a house with 60 dogs, four goats, 7 cats, 15 birds, and a skunk, and more animals outside - arrested for cruelty - she had spayed or neutered all of them to her credit, but the skunk probably made the smell of four goats rather tolerable by overwhelming the other odors - talk about mucking out...). Your ideas sound good to me, but what do I know? bill w On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 2:30 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2020 11:33 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 > > > > >?Rather than cars, I think of food. Already existing in places are > highrise buildings where produce is grown under sun and artificial light. > Why not combine the building with apartments for the workers there? Why > not build places where you just walk across the hall to go to work? > Support staff will live in basements, which can be several stories deep. > Solves many problems such as transportation to work. Ban private vehicles > - use all public buses and trains. I am quite sure that I did not steal > these ideas from anyone and also sure that they are not unique. bill w > > > > > > > > General answer: most people who want to raise a family do not want to do > that under those conditions. Common pattern: people have a high-voltage > career in one of the city-center high rise office buildings, and commute to > the suburbs. I am thinking of ways to enable that. Drive a personal car > to a staging area, get on board one of these electric pods, ride that the > last 5-10 km. > > > > I am viewing it from an engineering point of view. This would include > such practical challenges such as having these individual pods go into a > subway tunnel, then roll aboard a moving platform, like an escalator, flat. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 23 20:27:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 13:27:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <00cc01d6312e$60ec3dc0$22c4b940$@rainier66.com> <010901d63138$40fa3f80$c2eebe80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004501d63140$93b61520$bb223f60$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 Well, you wanted cheap. Living in a basement is not anyone's idea of a white picket fence and a dog. But you are close to city parks and other entertainments, which you are not in the suburbs or further out where the lower classes live because of the high cost of living closer. You are talking about the upper crust, eh? Forty acres and a mule were the dream once. Now it's half an acre and a miniature donkey. (or, in the paper today, living in a house with 60 dogs, four goats, 7 cats, 15 birds, and a skunk, and more animals outside - arrested for cruelty - she had spayed or neutered all of them to her credit, but the skunk probably made the smell of four goats rather tolerable by overwhelming the other odors - talk about mucking out...). Your ideas sound good to me, but what do I know? bill w Hi BillW, After I began really thinking about this problem, it occurred to me that I am not qualified: I don?t know enough about metropolitan life and I don?t know enough about the kind of people who choose to live there. A good friend lives in and raised his two daughters in the suburbs (Sunnyvale) and works in one of the towers in downtown SF, so my thinking might be overly influenced by his style. What I have under-considered is the kind of people you describe: they like (or accept) living in close enough proximity that I would be completely losing my mind trying to escape. Perhaps someone here knows a lot better than I do. Please help me understand: are there those among us who want to live where it is nearly impossible to escape the constant presence of humanity? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 23 20:47:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 15:47:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <004501d63140$93b61520$bb223f60$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <00cc01d6312e$60ec3dc0$22c4b940$@rainier66.com> <010901d63138$40fa3f80$c2eebe80$@rainier66.com> <004501d63140$93b61520$bb223f60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: are there those among us who want to live where it is nearly impossible to escape the constant presence of humanity ? spike Well, we know that you are an introvert,like me, though probably not as extreme as me. I lived in a dorm in college, but there was little of people running in and out of my room, which would have made me move off campus. Extroverts would love that - the more the merrier to keep from being bored by studying. We introverts just don't like hubbub. MY ideal place: I had it once and should have never left it: seven acres on a creek with the nearest neighbor half a mile away. I owned the road. Beautiful little creek running over rocks, plenty of trees, two miles from the college. Had two huge gardens. Could have been a nudist. Did sunbathe some. Which reminds my of the novel (MASH or another book by that author) in which the landowner made a deal with airplane pilots to fly over his property while he and a lovely were nude, made love, etc. I don't hate being around people but I can't stand much of it. Now if being in crowds makes you afraid, then send me $500 and I can cure you of that much more cheaply than going to a psychiatrist who will only prescribe some drug you won't like to take. For most of the day my wife is at one end of the house and I am at another and we like it that way. bill w On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 3:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Saturday, May 23, 2020 1:04 PM > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 > > > > Well, you wanted cheap. Living in a basement is not anyone's idea of a > white picket fence and a dog. But you are close to city parks and other > entertainments, which you are not in the suburbs or further out where the > lower classes live because of the high cost of living closer. > > > > You are talking about the upper crust, eh? Forty acres and a mule were > the dream once. Now it's half an acre and a miniature donkey. (or, in the > paper today, living in a house with 60 dogs, four goats, 7 cats, 15 birds, > and a skunk, and more animals outside - arrested for cruelty - she had > spayed or neutered all of them to her credit, but the skunk probably made > the smell of four goats rather tolerable by overwhelming the other odors - > talk about mucking out...). > > > > Your ideas sound good to me, but what do I know? > > > > bill w > > > > > > Hi BillW, > > > > After I began really thinking about this problem, it occurred to me that I > am not qualified: I don?t know enough about metropolitan life and I don?t > know enough about the kind of people who choose to live there. A good > friend lives in and raised his two daughters in the suburbs (Sunnyvale) and > works in one of the towers in downtown SF, so my thinking might be overly > influenced by his style. What I have under-considered is the kind of > people you describe: they like (or accept) living in close enough proximity > that I would be completely losing my mind trying to escape. > > > > Perhaps someone here knows a lot better than I do. Please help me > understand: are there those among us who want to live where it is nearly > impossible to escape the constant presence of humanity? > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat May 23 21:26:49 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 22:26:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23/05/2020 14:38, John K Clark wrote: > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:22 AM Ben via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > /> This is why no-one has made more than trivial progress with > genetic engineering to produce novel features. People talk > excitedly about using CRISPR to give people things like an extra > thumb, or extend our vision into the ultraviolet. We have no? clue > how to do things like this,/ > > > Well, we know how to make macro changes in fruit flies, such as > sprouting antennas from their eyes, and to make flies that have no > eyes at all, and to make a extra pair of legs grow out of the head. > Fruit flies have 14,000 genes while humans only have slightly more, > 24,000. I think it's more accurate to say that we stumbled upon how to do these things through experimentation (why would anyone set out to deliberately do the things you described? They're not exactly obvious goals). I'm fairly certain that if you asked a fruit fly genetic researcher how to give them tentacles, they'd be stumped. We're still at the stage of breaking things to see what happens. Designing new features from scratch is a completely different proposition. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat May 23 21:30:14 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 22:30:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0c4f72e1-e491-a710-0e36-32489cd7a479@zaiboc.net> On 23/05/2020 14:38, Re Rose wrote: > Magical thinking is NOT involved in my?descriptions. I think it is > magical thinking to imagine that your consciousness?will leap over > into another, separate agent that has a copy of your neural data. No > one yet has said /how/ that will happen, even though I have asked that > question a grillion, maybe even a brillion times to this list. That's > a lot of times. This is a straw-man argument. Nobody thinks that your consciousness 'leaps over' into a separate agent, any more than Beethovens 9th 'leaps over' into a new CD recording of it. The point is that the separate agent is already your consciousness, by means of being the /same information/. You might be asking a made-up numerical quantity of times meant to convey 'a lot', how it will happen, but you are ignoring the answer. When you say: "I believe making a copy is not possible, and that a "good enough" copy?is not "good enough" if your consciousness?cannot access it." You are missing the point entirely. What do you think a consciousness is, if not the information that is being duplicated? Your language implies that someone's consciousness, their mind, is a separate thing from the duplicated information. This is not the idea. It's like saying that the digital marks on a CD are not the music, and that the music has to 'access' the marks after they have been made. "... within non-linear systems that have multiple possible equilibria but are in a specific equilibria. These become de-entrained (exactly as they do during aging process, but farther away from?equilibria) and without initial boundary conditions it will not be possible for them to become re-entrained in the same equilibria. That essential? information is not copiable,?and cannot be retrieved." You'll have to give some specific examples of what you mean by this, or I can't make any sense of it. It seems you disagree when I said we'd already discussed, and disposed of, the 'information in the body' issue as being either totally irrelevant or easily solvable. So let's revisit that, and decide whether specific and exact individual somatic information is important for an upload or not. And I'd really like to know your answer to the 'amoeba' question. If someone's complete body and brain were duplicated in exactly the same way that an amoeba duplicates itself, who do you think the two resulting people would be? Two completely new people, or two versions of the same person? Has the original person died? Or is there some other interpretation? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 24 01:15:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 20:15:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: <0c4f72e1-e491-a710-0e36-32489cd7a479@zaiboc.net> References: <0c4f72e1-e491-a710-0e36-32489cd7a479@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Just to toss in my two cents, one with inflation, What do you think a consciousness is, if not the information that is being duplicated? Your language implies that someone's consciousness, their mind, is a separate thing from the duplicated information. ben Well, that's what I think. I think that consciousness is a dynamic process, which can show up on an EEG, whereas stored information is a static process (it used to be thought that a memory was a circuit continually running and if it stopped running the memory was lost). Consciousness is the part that accesses the static elements if desired (pulling long term memory into short term memory), along with processing sensory information. I also would not call consciousness the mind, since most of the mind is unconscious (and static unless called on (?), like accessing the definition of a word). bill w On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:37 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 23/05/2020 14:38, Re Rose wrote: > > Magical thinking is NOT involved in my descriptions. I think it is magical > thinking to imagine that your consciousness will leap over into another, > separate agent that has a copy of your neural data. No one yet has said > *how* that will happen, even though I have asked that question a > grillion, maybe even a brillion times to this list. That's a lot of times. > > > This is a straw-man argument. Nobody thinks that your consciousness 'leaps > over' into a separate agent, any more than Beethovens 9th 'leaps over' into > a new CD recording of it. The point is that the separate agent is already > your consciousness, by means of being the *same information*. You might > be asking a made-up numerical quantity of times meant to convey 'a lot', > how it will happen, but you are ignoring the answer. > > When you say: > "I believe making a copy is not possible, and that a "good enough" copy is > not "good enough" if your consciousness cannot access it." > > You are missing the point entirely. What do you think a consciousness is, > if not the information that is being duplicated? Your language implies that > someone's consciousness, their mind, is a separate thing from the > duplicated information. This is not the idea. It's like saying that the > digital marks on a CD are not the music, and that the music has to 'access' > the marks after they have been made. > > "... within non-linear systems that have multiple possible equilibria but > are in a specific equilibria. These become de-entrained (exactly as they do > during aging process, but farther away from equilibria) and without initial > boundary conditions it will not be possible for them to become re-entrained > in the same equilibria. That essential information is not copiable, and > cannot be retrieved." > > You'll have to give some specific examples of what you mean by this, or I > can't make any sense of it. > > It seems you disagree when I said we'd already discussed, and disposed of, > the 'information in the body' issue as being either totally irrelevant or > easily solvable. So let's revisit that, and decide whether specific and > exact individual somatic information is important for an upload or not. > > > And I'd really like to know your answer to the 'amoeba' question. If > someone's complete body and brain were duplicated in exactly the same way > that an amoeba duplicates itself, who do you think the two resulting people > would be? Two completely new people, or two versions of the same person? > Has the original person died? Or is there some other interpretation? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 24 10:58:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 06:58:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >>?And that's why in the entire history of the world no country with a >> constitution has ever slipped into dictatorship...oh waite ... > > > *> Not just any constitution will do. It must be one with a Bill of > Rights. * > On August 11 1919 Germany adopted a new constitution and it said Germany would be a republic with leaders elected by the people every few years and all were granted the same civil rights and responsibilities. All had the right to have private property. All had the right of freedom of expression. All had the right of peaceful assembly. All had the right of freedom of religion and there was no state religion. So you tell me, how did that work out? >?Yeah yeah because otherwise deficit spending will destroy the >> economy, the same song and dance I've been hearing all my life and all my >> father's life too, and it's starting to get a little old? > > > >> *> If runaway deficits will never hurt us, have you ever figured out why >> we are paying taxes at all? * > > Spike, do you honestly believe that is a valid argument for having zero debt? A function can have other input numbers besides zero and infinity and one of those numbers could produce maximum output. And I should have added that my grandfather had been hearing your little song and dance all his life too, as had his father. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 24 11:41:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 07:41:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: <0c4f72e1-e491-a710-0e36-32489cd7a479@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 9:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Your language implies that someone's consciousness, their mind, is a >> separate thing from the duplicated information. ben > > > *>Well, that's what I think. * > I do too but only in the sense that what a thing is and what a thing does are not the same; "racing car" and "fast" are not the same and "brain" and "mind" are not the same either. Mind is what a brain does and consciousness is part of mind. And that duplicated information by itself is not conscious, no information is duplicated or otherwise. Information needs to be processed intelligently and to do that you need matter, but atoms are generic so there is no need to be picky, any atoms will do. > * > I think that consciousness is a dynamic process, which can show up on > an EEG, * > If the behavior produced by your brain, behavior such as an intelligent philosophical discussion, didn't convince me that you were conscious then watching the squiggles produced by your brain on a EEG machine certainly wouldn't either. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Sun May 24 12:16:01 2020 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 08:16:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] heinlein In-Reply-To: <002301d63071$411dfb90$c359f2b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d63071$411dfb90$c359f2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <202005241216.04OCGBOa000932@athena.zia.io> There is a Facebook discussion of The Pursuit of the Pankera that began yesterday, hosted by the Heinlein Forum. https://www.facebook.com/events/690725758348018 The Heinlein Forum has moved from host to host since it began in 1991 on Prodigy. It lives on Facebook now. Active participants include his biographers, his archivists, the leadership of the Heinlein Society, friends and colleagues of him and of Ginny, etc. As such, while newbies are always welcome, it is the best place in the known multiverse for questions or discussion on any Heinlein-related topic. The next organized event (20 June) will be a discussion of Greg Benford's Rewrite, in which Heinlein is a character; Greg is a member of the HF and will be participating. -- David. From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 24 12:30:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 08:30:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> Authority is intentionally limited in the US. > > > > >>?It's very odd, the way you keep repeating that over and over like a >> mantra it's almost as if you think it's important? > > *> It is important. It is why we have never had a dictator. Can you think > of any other explanation? Do share please.* And so as the man who jumped from the top fell past the 20th story of the Empire State Building he was heard to say "so far so good". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 24 12:59:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 05:59:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Yeah yeah because otherwise deficit spending will destroy the economy, the same song and dance I've been hearing all my life and all my father's life too, and it's starting to get a little old? > If runaway deficits will never hurt us, have you ever figured out why we are paying taxes at all? >?Spike, do you honestly believe that is a valid argument for having zero debt? ? John K Clark John my wish is far more modest: zero deficit. We know we ran up this huge debt and we will need to service it indefinitely, but if we have a system whereby we borrow nothing, that would work. We point out the obvious to those who would loan the Fed money: this is a risky investment and getting more so. You might never get your money back. A catastrophe could wipe out the government?s ability to pay this. Counterproposal: government workers have a base salary. If the fed takes in less money than necessary to pay everyone, then the salaries are reduced by that fraction. This year they would be short a lot of money of course. But most years they would be OK, sometimes getting their full salary. Currently the US gov is borrowing money in order to give it away. If we run a surplus, pay out foreign aid from that surplus. In that way, we would end government borrowing by choice rather than having that choice forced on us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 24 13:02:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 06:02:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003101d631cb$95f805b0$c1e81110$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf > It is important. It is why we have never had a dictator. Can you think of any other explanation? Do share please. >?And so as the man who jumped from the top fell past the 20th story of the Empire State Building he was heard to say "so far so good". John K Clark Ja, that is how I see our runaway deficit. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun May 24 13:05:40 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 23:05:40 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 11:25, Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ben, I have explained, repeatedly, and in as much detail as I possibly am > able to considering the limitations of explanations on a list, exactly why > I believe a copy of you is not and can not be you. > > I also have described why I believe making a copy is not possible, and > that a "good enough" copy is not "good enough" if your consciousness cannot > access it. > > I've invoked other authors and suggested readings. I also suggested > general areas I think are helpful to read up in for background, and for > fun, because the ideas leading up to making and utilizing copies of > individuals' neural coding patterns and corrrelated neural pathways is flat > out fascinating. > > Magical thinking is NOT involved in my descriptions. I think it is magical > thinking to imagine that your consciousness will leap over into another, > separate agent that has a copy of your neural data. No one yet has said > *how* that will happen, even though I have asked that question a > grillion, maybe even a brillion times to this list. That's a lot of times. > Yet you accept that youR consciousness is transferred from an earlier to a later version of you, made of different matter configured in only approximately the same way. I've also said that while I agree that information is the most > important thing to preserve, the information in a conscious being is not > solely stored in the brain but throughout the corpus of the body, and not > in mere atomic positions but within non-linear systems that have multiple > possible equilibria but are in a specific equilibria. These become > de-entrained (exactly as they do during aging process, but farther away > from equilibria) and without initial boundary conditions it will not be > possible for them to become re-entrained in the same equilibria. That > essential information is not copiable, and cannot be retrieved. > > Reading the whole of what I wrote, I can do as I write it. I take time and > I try to be thoughtful so as to communicate my ideas as clearly as I can in > this forum. However, making sure you read what I wrote - that, I cannot do. > > May I say, throwing up ad-hominem objections, such as positing I have not > explained my reasons when I have or saying I indulge in magical thinking > when I do not, is not a studied and thoughtful parry. It is more of a > drive-by opinioning. > > And, ps, I think this is a *very *important consideration for the > cryonics community. If we throw our trust and research efforts behind > uploading and copies and do not consider that the reanimated agents are not > reanimiations of US, which is the goal, but in fact are independant agents > - well, if we do that, we've thrown away our chance to actually be there in > the future. It is a dire mistake to make. > > That is why I have put so much energy into my posts. But I am starting to > feel like I have said everything several times now. No one has to agree but > just consider how in the world you will come to occupy the consciouness of > another agent who happens to have an upload of your information and maybe > you will come to see things as I do. > > I would like all of us to get to see the future, and not to > accidently leave it to our "copy-heirs" because we didn't take the time to > think this through and decided that another being with our memories was > "us", when it's clearly not. > > --Regina > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 22:52:56 +0100 > From: Ben > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data > Message-ID: <1d99a893-8a52-5257-707e-f69d237e1181 at zaiboc.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > On 22/05/2020 13:34,? Re Rose wrote: > > I have said the following about a grillion times - a copy thinking it > > is me doesn't make it me > > Well, you've certainly said it a number of times, but the odd thing is > that you've never really explained why this should be true. I, and > several others, think that a good-enough 'copy' (I'm becoming less keen > on that word, because it leads to confused thinking, imo) has to be > 'you'. The only alternative is if magical thinking is right, and > supernatural phenomena? are actually real, instead of imaginary. Which I > severely doubt. > > At the risk of repeating myself, I think that information is the only > important thing, with respect to individual identity. Not atoms, not any > mystical unspecified essence, just information. This means, inescapably, > that if the information that constitutes the mind that is 'me', is > duplicated or translated into another embodiment, then the mind that is > me is duplicated or translated. This means that the totally unfamiliar > and bizarre phenomenon of there being two or more 'you's is actually > possible, even though it has never occurred before. > > The only thing to be determined is, what level of detail is good enough, > and that's doubtless something that we'll find out in time. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 24 14:01:29 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 10:01:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> We point out the obvious to those who would loan the Fed money: this is > a risky investment and getting more so. You might never get your money > back. * That will never happen simply because unlike matter, energy and momentum money is not conserved. The Federal Reserve has the legal right to effectively create money from nothing, but as Spiderman says with great power comes great responsibility, so that superpower must be used wisely. It would be irresponsible to create astronomical amounts of new money if the economy was already humming along at full capacity because it could cause inflation, but there is not even a hint of inflation and there has not been for decades, and with the pandemic the economy is currently running way way way under full capacity. And whatever the dangers that immediately printing vast amounts of new money may be they are trivial compared to the dangers of not doing it. In the last couple of months the income to 40 million American families has dropped to zero and they've also lost their health coverage during the worst pandemic in a century that has already killed 100,000 Americans with no end in sight, and all those unemployed people are not going to just die quietly. If the federal government refuses to create money and give emergency aid to the American people then the federal government will not be around for much longer, and neither will the constitution. I don't know what will replace it but it won't be pretty. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 24 14:19:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 07:19:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 7:01 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > We point out the obvious to those who would loan the Fed money: this is a risky investment and getting more so. You might never get your money back. >?That will never happen simply because unlike matter, energy and momentum money is not conserved. The Federal Reserve has the legal right to effectively create money from nothing? Ja, we know it well: the print more money argument. If they do that, then those who lent real money are paid back in play money, diluted currency. They will not do that again. This is a strategy that can be used only once. >?And whatever the dangers that immediately printing vast amounts of new money may be they are trivial compared to the dangers of not doing it? Plenty of lenders are coming to that realization. The ones still lending to the US are clearly not dealing with reality. >? In the last couple of months the income to 40 million American families has dropped to zero and they've also lost their health coverage during the worst pandemic in a century that has already killed 100,000 Americans with no end in sight? Ja, so now the fed?s revenue drops dramatically. How are they going to cover that? >?and all those unemployed people are not going to just die quietly? That?s right. They are saying to hell with the government, we need our jobs. What are they going to do, arrest everyone? Then what? It has been interesting to watch in California. The fed has chosen to stand down on the stay-home business, the state government has mostly stepped aside. Counties are still making demands, but cities are generally not following. I haven?t heard of sheriffs making arrests over businesses which refuse to close. At some point, economic reality demand it: the show must go on. We have bills to pay. Schools: many questions there. Few solutions. >?If the federal government refuses to create money and give emergency aid to the American people then the federal government will not be around for much longer? John, was it not you who said we don?t need a militia? Are you still saying that now? >?and neither will the constitution. I don't know what will replace it but it won't be pretty. John K Clark Sounds like you and I eventually converged in our vision of the future. The difference is that we disagree on whether the print-more-cash notion is a solution. I say it isn?t. It has been tried before. Things went badly. My suggestion is to cut federal government to match government revenue. You are right: that won?t be pretty. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun May 24 15:05:35 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 10:05:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 Message-ID: Spike Jones wrote: > Counterproposal: government workers have a base salary. If the > fed takes in less money than necessary to pay everyone, then > the salaries are reduced by that fraction. That is sort of how the WI state retirement system works. When investments are good pensions go up, when investments are bad pensions go down. So unlike many other states, the WI state retirement system is essentially fully funded. From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 24 15:14:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 10:14:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: re pensions - Every state should take a long look at Alabama (yes, Alabama!). The director of the teacher's pensions could have been a billionaire if he had chose to. 'We' own buildings in NYC that we rent out. We own a 4 star hotel on Mobile Bay. We own a Robert Trent Jones golf trail that people from all over the world come to play. He has been able to fight off the legislators who want to tap the fund for their pork. It really is an amazing story for such a backwards state (I have lived in Tennessee Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama, and for most things Alabama is the most backward.) bill w On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:08 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike Jones wrote: > > Counterproposal: government workers have a base salary. If the > > fed takes in less money than necessary to pay everyone, then > > the salaries are reduced by that fraction. > > That is sort of how the WI state retirement system works. > When investments are good pensions go up, when investments > are bad pensions go down. So unlike many other states, the > WI state retirement system is essentially fully funded. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 24 15:40:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:40:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> the print more money argument. If they do that, then those who lent > real money are paid back in play money, diluted currency. They will not do > that again. This is a strategy that can be used only once.* > Only once?! That strategy has been used almost continuously since 1835 and people are still eager to loan money to the federal government even at the super low interest rates we see today. > >> ? In the last couple of months the income to 40 million American >> families has dropped to zero and they've also lost their health coverage >> during the worst pandemic in a century that has already killed 100,000 >> Americans with no end in sight? > > > *> Ja, so now the fed?s revenue drops dramatically. How are they going to > cover that?* > The Federal Reserve will cover the shortfall by using its superpower to create money; this is nothing new, historically it has always done this in times of emergency. As I said in my last post there is no such thing as a law of the conservation of money. >?If the federal government refuses to create money and give emergency aid >> to the American people then the federal government will not be around for >> much longer and neither will the constitution. I don't know what will >> replace it but it won't be pretty. > > *John, was it not you who said we don?t need a militia?* > Yes, that was me. > Are you still saying that now? > Yes absolutely. A bunch of fat dim bulbs in MAGA hats running around with shotguns would be one of the things that would not be pretty. *> Sounds like you and I eventually converged in our vision of the future. > The difference is that we disagree on whether the print-more-cash notion is > a solution. I say it isn?t. It has been tried before. Things went > badly. * > There have been times since 1835 when too much money was created and things went bad, but not disastrously bad. The worst inflation in American history occurred in 1917 when it reached 19.6%, and it probably seemed bad at the time but today it looks like a trivial footnote compared to the horrors of the pandemic that occured the very next year. At least with this pandemic we're starting with super low inflation and interest rates that are virtually zero. > > My suggestion is to cut federal government to match government > revenue. You are right: that won?t be pretty. > I thought you were a fan of the constitution! If you did that in the middle of a global pandemic with as many people unemployed as in the Great Depression the constitution would be dead as a doornail within a year. A lot of conservatives don't like Franklin Roosevelt but without his New Deal today we'd be living under either a fascist or a communist government, either way it would be totalitarian. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun May 24 15:41:46 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:41:46 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rose, On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 7:24 PM Re Rose via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I also have described why I believe making a copy is not possible, and > that a "good enough" copy is not "good enough" if your consciousness cannot > access it. > I agree with you. Everything is important to identity to me. For example, when I go to sleep at night, then wake up in the morning, there is no continuity of consciousness. To me, when I wake up in the morning, because of the discontinuity of consciousness, I am a bit of a different person, and I look forward to the day when these types of discontinuity can be overcome, so all of me can survive, more completely, with more continuity. What do you think about the idea of a neural ponytail as portrait in the movie avatar, which would enable 4 hemispheres of brains to computationally bind, like 2 hemispheres can. With such a setup, we could experience all (or at least as much as you wanted to share) of the feelings, not just half of them. In other words, you would be able to tell things like your partner's redness is like your grenness, because his conscious knowledge of the world could be redness/grenness inverted from yours. Steven Lehar talks about our conscious knowledge as being like diorama in our brain, representing the world we see. At the center of this diorama, is our knowledge of our body, again, representing our real body. On the top of this, is our knowledge representing our head. Finally, inside of this head is our knowledge of our 'spirit' (or whatever you want to call it). It is represented as bing your identity, and is spatially represented as existing inside of your knowledge of your head, looking out of your knowledge of your eyes. Unlike all the other knowledge, this knowledge of your spirit doesn't have something outside of you brain that it represents. But that doesn't change the fact that it is something real, and objectively discoverable and observable. If you had a neural ponytail, both of your dioramas could be merged into representing the space in front and behind you, so you could both be aware of stuff behind you, and so on, since you could effectively see out your partners eyes, along with your own. This could be engineered so your knowledge of your spirit could have an out of body experience. It could leave your knowledge of your head and fly between these two representations of the space in front of you, and behind you, and so on. This wold all work, even if your computationally bound knowledge of the world behind you was red/green inverted from your knowledge of the world in front of you, due to the fact that your partner was red/green qualia inverted from you. I describe this kind of uploading in more detail, in my "1229 Years After Titanic" fan fiction story. Starting in Chapter 5 "Expanding Spirit World". I would wonder if this type of information, if proven possible via demonstrable engineering, would at least make uploading to a more advanced brain/body a little more acceptable, since as you describe it, in this case your "consciousness could access it"? Brent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 24 15:50:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:50:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 11:08 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Spike Jones wrote: >> >> Counterproposal: government workers have a base salary. If the fed >> takes in less money than necessary to pay everyone, then the salaries >> are reduced by that fraction. > > > > * > That is sort of how the WI state retirement system works.* Sometimes state governments have no choice but to do things like that because unlike the federal government they don't have the superpower to create money from nothing. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun May 24 15:55:06 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 01:55:06 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 May 2020 at 00:21, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, May 24, 2020 7:01 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* John Clark > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **We point out the obvious to those who would loan the Fed money: this > is a risky investment and getting more so. You might never get your money > back.* > > > > >?That will never happen simply because unlike matter, energy and momentum > money is not conserved. The Federal Reserve has the legal right to > effectively create money from nothing? > > > > Ja, we know it well: the print more money argument. If they do that, then > those who lent real money are paid back in play money, diluted currency. > They will not do that again. This is a strategy that can be used only once. > > > > >?And whatever the dangers that immediately printing vast amounts of new > money may be they are trivial compared to the dangers of not doing it? > > > > Plenty of lenders are coming to that realization. The ones still lending > to the US are clearly not dealing with reality. > > > > >? In the last couple of months the income to 40 million American families > has dropped to zero and they've also lost their health coverage during the > worst pandemic in a century that has already killed 100,000 Americans with > no end in sight? > > > > Ja, so now the fed?s revenue drops dramatically. How are they going to > cover that? > > > > >?and all those unemployed people are not going to just die quietly? > > > > That?s right. They are saying to hell with the government, we need our > jobs. What are they going to do, arrest everyone? Then what? > > > > It has been interesting to watch in California. The fed has chosen to > stand down on the stay-home business, the state government has mostly > stepped aside. Counties are still making demands, but cities are generally > not following. I haven?t heard of sheriffs making arrests over businesses > which refuse to close. At some point, economic reality demand it: the show > must go on. We have bills to pay. > The businesses will not stay open long without customers, afraid of a deadly disease or afraid to spend money because their jobs or investments are in jeopardy. > Schools: many questions there. Few solutions. > > > > >?If the federal government refuses to create money and give emergency aid > to the > > American people then the federal government will not be around for much > longer? > > > > John, was it not you who said we don?t need a militia? Are you still > saying that now? > >?and neither will the constitution. I don't know what will replace it but > it won't be pretty. John K Clark > > > > Sounds like you and I eventually converged in our vision of the future. > The difference is that we disagree on whether the print-more-cash notion is > a solution. I say it isn?t. It has been tried before. Things went > badly. My suggestion is to cut federal government to match government > revenue. You are right: that won?t be pretty. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 24 16:29:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:29:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007101d631e8$7b87f650$7297e2f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > Ja, so now the fed?s revenue drops dramatically. How are they going to cover that? >?The Federal Reserve will cover the shortfall by using its superpower to create money?John K Clark The real tragedy is that the Federal Reserve?s superpower is creating money rather than creating wealth. If they can only create money, the screw the very most vulnerable among us: the poor, the citizens of foreign nations which use US currency as their only real money, pensioners on a fixed income without the option of returning to the workforce. There is good reason why they can?t just print money based on nothing. We can?t manufacture wheelbarrows fast enough. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun May 24 16:31:02 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 17:31:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/05/2020 14:02, bill w wrote: > Just to toss in my two cents, one with inflation, > ?What do you think a consciousness is, if not the information that is > being duplicated? Your language implies that someone's consciousness, > their mind, is a separate thing from the duplicated information.? ben > > Well, that's what I think.? I think that consciousness is a dynamic > process, which can show up on an EEG,? whereas stored information is a > static process (it used to be thought that a memory was a circuit > continually running and if it stopped running the memory was lost). > Consciousness is the part that accesses the static elements if desired > (pulling long term memory into short term memory), along with > processing sensory information.? I also would not call consciousness > the mind, since most of the mind is unconscious (and static unless > called on (?), like accessing the definition of a word).? bill w I see a contradiction here. You're completely right to say that most of a mind is unconscious (so we shouldn't really use the word 'consciousness' the way we are doing, fair enough), and that the dynamic processes are, well, dynamic. But it's not correct to say that dynamic processes can't be represented by static data. We do this all the time. Again, the example of music comes to mind. So does John Conway's Game of Life. The dynamic and self-interacting processes of the game can be represented by a simple set of formulae, and additional data about a starting state can exactly reproduce the dynamic progression of states displayed by the game, when implemented by a suitable computing system. I see no difference, in principle, between the Game of Life and a mind, except for a large difference in complexity. We'll need a lot more information to represent the patterns of dynamic interactions, and the substrate to run them on will also be (potentially, depending on exactly how things are implemented) more complex. Basically, any information process, no matter how complex, or dynamic or self-interactive, can be captured as static data then re-implemented later. Let's say that it is true thata memory is a circuit continually running, and if it stops running the memory is lost. Let's say that the information in the circuit consists of a specific set of spike trains in a loop. If you take the circuit in isolation, and break it or stop it, the spike trains are lost and there's no way to tell what they were, so restarting the circuit won't make the same pattern reappear. But how did the pattern get there in the first place? There must be some configuration of neuronal connections, synaptic weights, and ionic concentrations that produced it, looking at the wider brain connected to the circuit. So if you can reproduce those, then stopping and restarting the whole brain instead of just the circuit in isolation /will/ make the same pattern reappear (in fact, our brains depend on this, otherwise Marcel Proust would be an obscure nonentity). The same is true of any dynamic process in the brain. Or anywhere, for that matter. You can quote the 'butterfly effect', and say that it won't necessarily be exactly the same pattern, but that doesn't matter, for two reasons. First, it will be close enough. A small variation of a pattern in a circuit won't constitute a totally different memory, as it's the result of exactly the same inputs, and second, the butterfly effect won't even be a factor in a brain, because it isn't something like a weather system with many independent variables, it's a tightly-integrated system with many attractors that similar patterns will settle into, just as the cells in a tissue do, so that you can provide some of the cues, and the cells themselves will provide the rest to settle into a 'mucle tissue' pattern or a 'fibrous connective tissue' pattern, etc. If this weren't true, then people under deep anaesthesia, or in any state where their mental processes are interrupted, wouldn't be able to resume them (or would display different personalities, be completely different people upon resuscitation). All the processes that are suspended, are stored in a static form which is then used to restart them. We don't kill people by anaethetising them, or cooling their brains to 4 degrees centigrade, therefore dynamic processes can be stored as static data. On a separate note, if your mind is not information, and is not matter, then what else could it be? The only things we have to work with (unless you think magic is true) are space/time, matter/energy and information. Information changing with time is still information (information which changes, plus information about how it changes with time. Plus, if needed, information about how the changes change, and so on, ad infinitum), and we can easily demonstrate that suspending a process in time does not irretreivably destroy it. So, for cryonics to successfully preserve enough information to recreate a mind, it looks like we'll need the connectome, and the synaptic weights of all the crucial synapses for personality (what these are, we don't currently know. I doubt that all of them in the whole brain will be needed, but I may be wrong), plus possibly the concentrations of certain key ions in certain key places might be desirable too, although I suspect that omitting them would just cause a bit of vagueness, and an upload becoming conscious would experience some confusion about what has happened, much like waking from a dream. But if we have the technology to record the weights in billions of synapses, I don't think adding information about neuron hillock excitation states would be that hard, so waking up as an upload could be a pretty seamless experience. You die, then you wake up again, with your train of thought uninterrupted. Would that be important? Personally, I'd be happy to forgo it, I think. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 24 16:33:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:33:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008001d631e9$0bcddc70$23699550$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 11:08 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat > wrote: Spike Jones wrote: >> Counterproposal: government workers have a base salary. If the fed takes in less money than necessary to pay everyone, then the salaries are reduced by that fraction. > That is sort of how the WI state retirement system works. >?Sometimes state governments have no choice but to do things like that because unlike the federal government they don't have the superpower to create money from nothing. John K Clark This is exactly why I argue that most of the heavy lifting in government should be done at the state level. It reduces the temptation of the Federal Reserve to dilute the currency, which would ruin the most vulnerable among us. State governments have way more tax options than the Fed. They can tax real estate, they can tax fuel, they can tax sales, and they can tax income. California does all these, and they are free to raise those taxes as high as they want, and California does. The Fed only has income tax, only income. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 24 16:54:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 09:54:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ac01d631eb$f8b538b0$ea1faa10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >>?It has been interesting to watch in California. The fed has chosen to stand down on the stay-home business, the state government has mostly stepped aside. Counties are still making demands, but cities are generally not following. I haven?t heard of sheriffs making arrests over businesses which refuse to close. At some point, economic reality demand it: the show must go on. We have bills to pay. The businesses will not stay open long without customers, afraid of a deadly disease or afraid to spend money because their jobs or investments are in jeopardy? -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis the early openers and the non-closers enjoyed more business during the shutdown because they had less competition. I noticed that people get it: they want to save their favorite businesses. Another factor: plenty of us have studied the numbers carefully and recognized where the real risk is greatest: places where it is crowded. The super high infection rates are in the really big cities, the few places where Godzilla would go were she to emerge from the sea. I have been to New York City: everywhere is super crowded there. A few places in San Jose are really crowded always, a geographically small but popular areas. OK, no go. We know where those places are, and we don?t go there. Really packed restaurants where it is impossible to give people enough space: forget it. The local dry cleaners, the grocery store, the few retail outlets I still use, usual places I do business were not crowded before. So? I deem them sufficiently safe to go back. Think about the really dangerous places: the hospital, nursing homes, big parties, crowded anything. Pretty much anywhere else: good to go. The local businesses will be OK, the ones I care about will. I don?t live in a big city, and now I will not go there, even to visit. It was scary enough knowing you could get shot or Godzilla could show up at any moment. Now we have a new danger in addition. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 24 17:10:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 10:10:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000b01d631ee$4647b3d0$d2d71b70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat ? >>? My suggestion is to cut federal government to match government revenue. You are right: that won?t be pretty. >?I thought you were a fan of the constitution!.... We are all fans of the constitution. >?If you did that in the middle of a global pandemic with as many people unemployed as in the Great Depression the constitution would be dead as a doornail within a year. A lot of conservatives don't like Franklin Roosevelt but without his New Deal today we'd be living under either a fascist or a communist government, either way it would be totalitarian. John K Clark John, the political cartoonists beat you to it: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35003 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 24 17:20:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 12:20:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But it's not correct to say that dynamic processes can't be represented by static data I never said that. I agree with you. Also, dynamic processes can be made static. Agree. Mind is information and it is matter and the processes that it runs can be unconscious, such as digestion, or conscious such as playing the piano from a score. Long term memory is not circuits running. Short term memory is. Think of it this way: if the circuit runs long enough the information gets stored in long term memory. If it doesn't run long enough the info is lost forever. Many experiments prove this. You can do it yourself. Choose a large number to remember, then count backwards from 100 by 17s. Thirty seconds later try to remember the number. Very few can - just gone. bill w On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 11:39 AM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/05/2020 14:02, bill w wrote: > > Just to toss in my two cents, one with inflation, > > What do you think a consciousness is, if not the information that is > being duplicated? Your language implies that someone's consciousness, their > mind, is a separate thing from the duplicated information. ben > > Well, that's what I think. I think that consciousness is a dynamic > process, which can show up on an EEG, whereas stored information is a > static process (it used to be thought that a memory was a circuit > continually running and if it stopped running the memory was lost). > Consciousness is the part that accesses the static elements if desired > (pulling long term memory into short term memory), along with processing > sensory information. I also would not call consciousness the mind, since > most of the mind is unconscious (and static unless called on (?), like > accessing the definition of a word). bill w > > > I see a contradiction here. You're completely right to say that most of a > mind is unconscious (so we shouldn't really use the word 'consciousness' > the way we are doing, fair enough), and that the dynamic processes are, > well, dynamic. But it's not correct to say that dynamic processes can't be > represented by static data. We do this all the time. Again, the example of > music comes to mind. So does John Conway's Game of Life. The dynamic and > self-interacting processes of the game can be represented by a simple set > of formulae, and additional data about a starting state can exactly > reproduce the dynamic progression of states displayed by the game, when > implemented by a suitable computing system. > > I see no difference, in principle, between the Game of Life and a mind, > except for a large difference in complexity. We'll need a lot more > information to represent the patterns of dynamic interactions, and the > substrate to run them on will also be (potentially, depending on exactly > how things are implemented) more complex. > > Basically, any information process, no matter how complex, or dynamic or > self-interactive, can be captured as static data then re-implemented later. > > Let's say that it is true that a memory is a circuit continually running, > and if it stops running the memory is lost. > Let's say that the information in the circuit consists of a specific set > of spike trains in a loop. If you take the circuit in isolation, and break > it or stop it, the spike trains are lost and there's no way to tell what > they were, so restarting the circuit won't make the same pattern reappear. > > But how did the pattern get there in the first place? There must be some > configuration of neuronal connections, synaptic weights, and ionic > concentrations that produced it, looking at the wider brain connected to > the circuit. So if you can reproduce those, then stopping and restarting > the whole brain instead of just the circuit in isolation *will* make the > same pattern reappear (in fact, our brains depend on this, otherwise Marcel > Proust would be an obscure nonentity). The same is true of any dynamic > process in the brain. Or anywhere, for that matter. > > You can quote the 'butterfly effect', and say that it won't necessarily be > exactly the same pattern, but that doesn't matter, for two reasons. First, > it will be close enough. A small variation of a pattern in a circuit won't > constitute a totally different memory, as it's the result of exactly the > same inputs, and second, the butterfly effect won't even be a factor in a > brain, because it isn't something like a weather system with many > independent variables, it's a tightly-integrated system with many > attractors that similar patterns will settle into, just as the cells in a > tissue do, so that you can provide some of the cues, and the cells > themselves will provide the rest to settle into a 'mucle tissue' pattern or > a 'fibrous connective tissue' pattern, etc. > > If this weren't true, then people under deep anaesthesia, or in any state > where their mental processes are interrupted, wouldn't be able to resume > them (or would display different personalities, be completely different > people upon resuscitation). All the processes that are suspended, are > stored in a static form which is then used to restart them. > > We don't kill people by anaethetising them, or cooling their brains to 4 > degrees centigrade, therefore dynamic processes can be stored as static > data. > > On a separate note, if your mind is not information, and is not matter, > then what else could it be? The only things we have to work with (unless > you think magic is true) are space/time, matter/energy and information. > Information changing with time is still information (information which > changes, plus information about how it changes with time. Plus, if needed, > information about how the changes change, and so on, ad infinitum), and we > can easily demonstrate that suspending a process in time does not > irretreivably destroy it. > > So, for cryonics to successfully preserve enough information to recreate a > mind, it looks like we'll need the connectome, and the synaptic weights of > all the crucial synapses for personality (what these are, we don't > currently know. I doubt that all of them in the whole brain will be needed, > but I may be wrong), plus possibly the concentrations of certain key ions > in certain key places might be desirable too, although I suspect that > omitting them would just cause a bit of vagueness, and an upload becoming > conscious would experience some confusion about what has happened, much > like waking from a dream. But if we have the technology to record the > weights in billions of synapses, I don't think adding information about > neuron hillock excitation states would be that hard, so waking up as an > upload could be a pretty seamless experience. You die, then you wake up > again, with your train of thought uninterrupted. Would that be important? > Personally, I'd be happy to forgo it, I think. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun May 24 17:49:06 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 13:49:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020, 11:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 10:22 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> *> the print more money argument. If they do that, then those who lent >> real money are paid back in play money, diluted currency. They will not do >> that again. This is a strategy that can be used only once.* >> > > Only once?! That strategy has been used almost continuously since 1835 > and people are still eager to loan money to the federal government even at > the super low interest rates we see today. > That's not true. Prior to 1913, noone was printing as much money as they wanted; they were constrained. The creation of the Fed in 1913 was the beginning of the end for the buying power of a dollar. Nixon finished us off. We will never see a dollar worth what it was in 1913 again. 1913: $100 1923: $57.89 1933: $76.15 1943: $57.23 1953: $37.08 1963: $32.35 1973: $22.30 1983: $9.94 1993: $6.85 2003: $5.38 2013: $4.25 2019: $3.87 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 24 17:57:26 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 13:57:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: <007101d631e8$7b87f650$7297e2f0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> <007101d631e8$7b87f650$7297e2f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> There is good reason why they can?t just print money based on nothing. > We can?t manufacture wheelbarrows fast enough.* > You're worrying about the wrong thing, there has never been a time in American history when interest rates were lower or inflation was less than right now.Herbert Hoover thought as you do and figured that the way to deal with the economic difficulties of 1929 was to increase tariffs and drastically cut government spending, and he succeeded in turning a garden variety recession into a worldwide Great Depression. And even in the worse inflation in American history it was less than 20%, I really think we can make wheelbarrows fast enough to keep up with that, although if your suggestion is followed the uprising from millions of penyless unemployed may cause a shortage of guillotines. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 24 18:25:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:25:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> <007101d631e8$7b87f650$7297e2f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002e01d631f8$a4874ff0$ed95efd0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 10:57 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > There is good reason why they can?t just print money based on nothing. We can?t manufacture wheelbarrows fast enough. >?You're worrying about the wrong thing, there has never been a time in American history when interest rates were lower or inflation was less than right now.Herbert Hoover thought as you do and figured that the way to deal with the economic difficulties of 1929 was to increase tariffs and drastically cut government spending, and he succeeded in turning a garden variety recession into a worldwide Great Depression. >?And even in the worse inflation in American history it was less than 20%, I really think we can make wheelbarrows fast enough to keep up with that, although if your suggestion is followed the uprising from millions of penyless unemployed may cause a shortage of guillotines. John K Clark Trying to print our way out of trouble is robbing those whose wealth is largely in the form of currency: the lower-end wage earners. Pensioners and those who depend on annuities have few options: they feel the pain we heard so much about in the late 70s. Those most in debt were in good shape: they were able to pay back with smaller dollars. People of my parents? generation were nearly unanimous in their advice: buy the biggest home you can possibly afford, then borrow against the house as often as you can, for inflation will come along and make you a hero. I did neither of these, for I realized high inflation and high interest rates are never guaranteed. I bought a modest home and eschewed debt at every opportunity. I was holding fixed-rate bonds in 2008, when the unforeseen happened: interest rates dropped to impossibly low levels and have stayed there ever since. Inflation never came, and that counter-strategy made me a hero. I freely admit in retrospect I got really lucky. But my notion has always been the same: technology comes along and makes things more efficient, economies grow. Until they don?t anymore. There is no magic to a printing press. The government can print money but it cannot print wealth. Minting too much currency is the Sheriff of Nottingham approach: it robs from the poor and gives to the rich. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 24 18:28:52 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 14:28:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 1:52 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: 1913: $100 > 1923: $57.89 > 1933: $76.15 1933 was the very worst year of the Great depression, but your own figures indicate that the dollar was stronger in 1933 than it was in 1923, perhaps that means inflation is not the only calamity that can befall an economy, and maybe it doesn't matter how much a dollar can buy if you don't have any dollars. > We will never see a dollar worth what it was in 1913 again. I hope we never see economic conditions like 1913 again, the average person in the US only made 1,283 of those 1913 dollars and the average house cost $3,395, I looked but so far I've been unable to find how much computing power you could purchase in 1913 for a dollar or how much a iPhone cost back then, but I'll keep looking. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 24 22:04:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 15:04:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d631cb$31277580$93766080$@rainier66.com> <001901d631d6$645fca50$2d1f5ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d63217$51fd7510$f5f85f30$@rainier66.com> This is a comparison of note, Covid-19 deaths per capita in USA (red) vs Sweden (blue.) Sweden did not shut down. Their death rate was higher, but not a lot higher. The one trace way up there is Belgium. The other early high peak is Spain. Source: https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 46106 bytes Desc: not available URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun May 24 18:23:29 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:23:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Chinese bullshit theorem Message-ID: <20200524112329.Horde.PztXZoWnDaCAws4gkI5Os1N@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Claim: The novel coronavirus most likely came from the lab in Wuhan. Let L be the hypothesis that nCoV19 came from a lab. Let M, for market, be the hypothesis that nCoV19 came about by chance evolution in a wet market of mixed live animals. Let W be the observation that the virus arose in Wuhan, China. By Bayes? Theorem, the likelihood or posterior probability that the coronavirus originated in the lab given that the initial outbreak happened in Wuhan is P(L|W) = P(W|L)P(L) /(P(W|L)P(L) + P(W|M)P(M)). Similarly the likelihood that the coronavirus originated in the wet market given that the initial outbreak happened in Wuhan is P(M|W) = P(W|M)P(M) /(P(W|L)P(L) + P(W|M)P(M)). In order to find likelihood ratios for the two hypotheses we simply divide their likelihoods P(L|W) /P(M|W) =[ P(W|L)P(L) /(P(W|L)P(L) + P(W|M)P(M))]/ [P(W|M)P(M) /(P(W|L)P(L) + P(W|M)P(M))]. The denominators are equal, so they cancel out to give us a likelihood ratio: R := P(L|W) /P(M|W) =P(W|L)P(L)/( P(W|M)P(M)) Now we just need to assign our probabilities. If the virus came about because of random evolution in the wet market, then it could have evolved in any wet market in China. Since wet markets have been part of Chinese culture for centuries, every city in China has a wet market. There are 686 cities in China and therefore 686 wet markets. That means that the probability that the outbreak happened in Wuhan given that the coronavirus came from a wet market is 1/686. P(W|M) = 1/686 On the other hand, there is only one biosafety level 4 virus lab in all of China and it is in Wuhan. Therefore, the probability that the outbreak happened in Wuhan, given that the virus came from the lab is 1. P(W|L) = 1 If we start with an assumption that either scenario is equally probable, then P(L) = P(M) and so they cancel out, giving us a likelihood ratio R = P(W|L)/P(W|M) = 1/(1/686) = 686. Or in other words, given uninformative unbiased priors, Bayes theorem demonstrates that it is 686 times more likely that the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19 came from the lab in Wuhan rather than from the wet market there. Q.E.D. Note that even if you assign the wet market story a prior probability of .95, Bayes still says that the lab hypothesis is still 36.1 times more likely. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 25 02:44:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 19:44:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Chinese bullshit theorem In-Reply-To: <20200524112329.Horde.PztXZoWnDaCAws4gkI5Os1N@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200524112329.Horde.PztXZoWnDaCAws4gkI5Os1N@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <006d01d6323e$5cd6f200$1684d600$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] The Chinese bullshit theorem >...Claim: >...The novel coronavirus most likely came from the lab in Wuhan. ... >...Note that even if you assign the wet market story a prior probability of .95, Bayes still says that the lab hypothesis is still 36.1 times more likely. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Ja. Consider the nuclear meltdown at Chernobyl and this novel flu outbreak. In both cases, the communist governments in charge attempted to cover up the incident, with catastrophic international consequences. Given any society which controls information, we can expect similar results. Lesson: communism destroys. Capitalism employs. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 25 13:03:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 09:03:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Garbage In Garbage Out Message-ID: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:42 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If the virus came about because of random evolution in the wet market, > then *[...] Nobody thinks the viral mutation happened in the Wuhan market, they think a mutation happened to a virus in a bat in the wild that produced a virus similar to but not exactly the same as COVID-19. And they think the bat then infected some other undetermined wild animal where a second mutation occurred and COVID-19 was born. Then this wild animal (most likely a pangolin but not certain) was brought to the Wuhan wet market. *>There are 686 cities in China and therefore 686 wet markets. That means > that the probability that the outbreak happened in Wuhan given that the > coronavirus came from a wet market is 1/686.* I hit a golf ball 450 yards and it lands on one particular tuft of grass. There are 686,686,686 tufts of grass the ball could have landed on but it ignored all of them except for one. Therefore I must have almost certainly been aiming at that particular tuft of grass because the probability it was all random is only one chance in 686,686,686. Or to put it in another simpler way, GIGO. I'll give you another probability and I don't even need Bayes theorem to calculate it; the probability that any large event in modern human history will produce a crackpot conspiracy theory is 100% . John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon May 25 13:54:12 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 14:54:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f8c88df-62ac-452b-dd8e-cef807a95d2e@zaiboc.net> On 24/05/2020 23:04, bill w wrote: > But it's not correct to say that dynamic processes can't be > represented by static data > > I never said that.? I agree with you. Ah, ok. I misunderstood. After this: ------------------- What do you think a consciousness is, if not the information that is being duplicated? Your language implies that someone's consciousness, their mind, is a separate thing from the duplicated information.? ben Well, that's what I think.? I think that consciousness is a dynamic process, which can show up on an EEG,? whereas stored information is a static process (it used to be thought that a memory was a circuit continually running and if it stopped running the memory was lost). Consciousness is the part that accesses the static elements if desired (pulling long term memory into short term memory), along with processing sensory information.? I also would not call consciousness the mind, since most of the mind is unconscious (and static unless called on (?), like accessing the definition of a word).? bill w ---------------------- I thought you were saying that a mind was a separate thing from the information, so that reproducing information alone is not enough to reproduce a mind. But you're saying that a running mind is different from a stored mind, which nobody can argue with. I suppose they're two sides of the same coin. Matter/energy encoding information statically, and information orchestrating the dynamic flow of matter/energy. Natural language is a crude thing, and often not really suitable for conveying these sorts of things. I reckon a huge amount of time must get wasted because of miscommunication. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 25 15:19:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 10:19:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: <6f8c88df-62ac-452b-dd8e-cef807a95d2e@zaiboc.net> References: <6f8c88df-62ac-452b-dd8e-cef807a95d2e@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: If my memory is serving me well (not likely) it has been estimated that only about 25% of what is said is adequately communicated. Part of that, I suppose, is that you have to count both errors: errors in what is said, and errors in what is understood by the receiver. It gets even worse, I think, when you consider class reunions: the communicator doesn't remember an event well and then states it poorly, and the receiver has different memories of the event and then garbles what he hears. bill On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 8:56 AM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/05/2020 23:04, bill w wrote: > > But it's not correct to say that dynamic processes can't be represented by > static data > > I never said that. I agree with you. > > > Ah, ok. I misunderstood. > > After this: > ------------------- > What do you think a consciousness is, if not the information that is being > duplicated? Your language implies that someone's consciousness, their mind, > is a separate thing from the duplicated information. ben > > Well, that's what I think. I think that consciousness is a dynamic > process, which can show up on an EEG, whereas stored information is a > static process (it used to be thought that a memory was a circuit > continually running and if it stopped running the memory was lost). > Consciousness is the part that accesses the static elements if desired > (pulling long term memory into short term memory), along with processing > sensory information. I also would not call consciousness the mind, since > most of the mind is unconscious (and static unless called on (?), like > accessing the definition of a word). bill w > ---------------------- > > I thought you were saying that a mind was a separate thing from the > information, so that reproducing information alone is not enough to > reproduce a mind. But you're saying that a running mind is different from > a stored mind, which nobody can argue with. I suppose they're two sides of > the same coin. Matter/energy encoding information statically, and > information orchestrating the dynamic flow of matter/energy. > > Natural language is a crude thing, and often not really suitable for > conveying these sorts of things. I reckon a huge amount of time must get > wasted because of miscommunication. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 25 15:42:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 08:42:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Essential Upload Data In-Reply-To: References: <6f8c88df-62ac-452b-dd8e-cef807a95d2e@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <008601d632ab$0aa091e0$1fe1b5a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data If my memory is serving me well (not likely) it has been estimated that only about 25% of what is said is adequately communicated. Part of that, I suppose, is that you have to count both errors: errors in what is said, and errors in what is understood by the receiver. It gets even worse, I think, when you consider class reunions: the communicator doesn't remember an event well and then states it poorly, and the receiver has different memories of the event and then garbles what he hears. Bill Hi BillW, (Hey where the heck is BillK these days?) I had some fun experimenting with your class reunion observation. At my 30th, I found three others who were present at a math competition the four of us attended. I asked them to tell me what they remembered about it. The three of them described a scene which bore little resemblance to my own memory of it, and little resemblance to each other. I found it most striking: my memories of the event were very detailed, far more so than anything else that happened that school year. But their memories of that were vague, nearly gone. It was just something they did on a whim, never anything they took seriously. But I did. Perhaps BillW can explain this. Mainstream theory has it that when we recall an event from long ago, our minds fill in details that fit our understanding of how things work. Then each time a memory is accessed, a new copy of the event is written in our minds. This phenom causes post-trauma distress, for the victim cannot stop making of new copies of a bad or scary event. But can also lead to what I fear happened to me: I remember an event as being a lot more interesting and fun and pleasant than it really was. I had a blast at that competition. My compatriots scarcely recalled it at all, or if so, it was only that they were there and played in it. BillW or any other memory-hipsters among us, do enlighten us por favor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon May 25 16:14:42 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 12:14:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: <1048871160.2497689.1590211640667@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5303e4d1-3b53-a30b-74b8-d0fe4405ae8d@zaiboc.net> <413981387.2016131.1590091701600@mail.yahoo.com> <1048871160.2497689.1590211640667@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:30 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > It is true that deleterious mutations are more common than beneficial > ones. It is the price that life pays for searching fitness-space for > greener pastures on the other side of the valley of death. That being said, > automotive engines display a different sort of complexity than living > systems. The complexity of the car engine is imposed upon it a top-down > fashion. Because of that, the engine's parts are very specialized and > essential. This has the effect of making the engine brittle and > failure-prone. > No, engines are brittle because that's the way we design them. We don't design them to last a million miles or to be inherently redundant, we design them to be relatively robust, inexpensive, and efficient. Would you pay $200,000 for a car that got 15 mpg, performed like a Camry, and had an drive train that was unlikely to ever need repair? Engineering is about trade-offs. Manufacturers know what buyers will buy and design their products to meet that demand. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 25 16:48:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 11:48:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trivia quiz Message-ID: When is a certain screwdriver called a hammer? quote for today: "The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the living." Cicero bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 25 17:05:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 12:05:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: <5303e4d1-3b53-a30b-74b8-d0fe4405ae8d@zaiboc.net> <413981387.2016131.1590091701600@mail.yahoo.com> <1048871160.2497689.1590211640667@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Classic case of 'good enough for who it's for'. bill w On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 11:17 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:30 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> It is true that deleterious mutations are more common than beneficial >> ones. It is the price that life pays for searching fitness-space for >> greener pastures on the other side of the valley of death. That being said, >> automotive engines display a different sort of complexity than living >> systems. The complexity of the car engine is imposed upon it a top-down >> fashion. Because of that, the engine's parts are very specialized and >> essential. This has the effect of making the engine brittle and >> failure-prone. >> > > No, engines are brittle because that's the way we design them. We don't > design them to last a million miles or to be inherently redundant, we > design them to be relatively robust, inexpensive, and efficient. Would you > pay $200,000 for a car that got 15 mpg, performed like a Camry, and had an > drive train that was unlikely to ever need repair? Engineering is about > trade-offs. Manufacturers know what buyers will buy and design their > products to meet that demand. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 25 18:10:34 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 11:10:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] trivia quiz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When it's used to pound nails in. If everything looks like a nail, what tool do you have? On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 9:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > When is a certain screwdriver called a hammer? > > quote for today: "The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the > living." Cicero > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 25 19:22:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 14:22:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trivia quiz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 1:13 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > When it's used to pound nails in. > > If everything looks like a nail, what tool do you have? > Somewhat imaginative, but no cigar. This is a professional tool, not a make-do. bill w > > On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 9:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> When is a certain screwdriver called a hammer? >> >> quote for today: "The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the >> living." Cicero >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon May 25 19:32:13 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 12:32:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 Message-ID: John Clark wrote: > On August 11 1919 Germany adopted a new constitution and it said Germany would be a republic with leaders elected by the people every few years and all were granted the same civil rights and responsibilities. All had the right to have private property. All had the right of freedom of expression. All had the right of peaceful assembly. All had the right of freedom of religion and there was no state religion. So you tell me, how did that work out? Given the economic collapse of the early 20s, about like you should expect. Constitutions are historically very recent. Wars are much older. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 25 20:48:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 13:48:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] trivia quiz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008301d632d5$d899f6c0$89cde440$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] trivia quiz When is a certain screwdriver called a hammer? On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 1:13 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: When it's used to pound nails in. If everything looks like a nail, what tool do you have? Somewhat imaginative, but no cigar. This is a professional tool, not a make-do. bill w Tending a bar is a profession, and bartenders use cocktails as tools to satisfy their clientele. A screwdriver is a drink made from orange juice and vodka. If one devours too much alcohol one is hammered. A screwdriver in that sense is a tool a bartender might use to help her clients get hammered. Alternative: an impact driver can be self-contained. If a screw head is distressed, it can still be driven in with a device that is pressed down until it goes bang, turning the screw to the right. An impact driver has an internal hammer, so in a sense it hammers the screw into the wood. Spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 25 20:56:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 15:56:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trivia quiz In-Reply-To: <008301d632d5$d899f6c0$89cde440$@rainier66.com> References: <008301d632d5$d899f6c0$89cde440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: OK OK, before I get any more answers, all of which were lovely and inspirational, here is the answer: TADA TADA TADA!!! The gadget used to tune strings on a piano is called a tuning hammer for some reason hidden from me. The strings are attached to screws that loosen or tighten the strings, just like other stringed instruments. Aren't you glad to know this? Now you can wow your many dinner party guests. bill w (I actually knew that about the impact driver - have one, used it) On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 3:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] trivia quiz > > > > When is a certain screwdriver called a hammer? > > > > > > On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 1:13 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > When it's used to pound nails in. > > > > If everything looks like a nail, what tool do you have? > > > > Somewhat imaginative, but no cigar. This is a professional tool, not a > make-do. bill w > > > > > > Tending a bar is a profession, and bartenders use cocktails as tools to > satisfy their clientele. A screwdriver is a drink made from orange juice > and vodka. If one devours too much alcohol one is hammered. A screwdriver > in that sense is a tool a bartender might use to help her clients get > hammered. > > > > Alternative: an impact driver can be self-contained. If a screw head is > distressed, it can still be driven in with a device that is pressed down > until it goes bang, turning the screw to the right. An impact driver has > an internal hammer, so in a sense it hammers the screw into the wood. > > > > Spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon May 25 19:49:34 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 12:49:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] trivia quiz Message-ID: <20200525124934.Horde.eZ31D3aW52mHArZ2qqK-Hx8@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> > On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 9:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> When is a certain screwdriver called a hammer? >> When its your fifth screwdriver in an hour that puts you over your limit and you get hammered by drinking it? (screwdriver = orange juice + vodka) Stuart LaForge >> quote for today: "The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the >> living." Cicero >> >> bill w From avant at sollegro.com Mon May 25 17:31:22 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 10:31:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Garbage In Garbage Out Message-ID: <20200525103122.Horde.jeas97OqgxcOWb2fr0vXvlO@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> On Monday, May 25, 2020, 06:04:50 AM PDT, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 9:42 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >> If the virus came about because of random evolution in the wet >> market, then [...] > Nobody thinks the viral mutation happened in the Wuhan market, they > think a mutation happened to a virus in a bat in the wild that > produced a virus similar to but not exactly the same as COVID-19. > And they think the bat then infected some other undetermined wild > animal where a second mutation occurred and COVID-19 was born. Then > this wild animal (most likely a pangolin but not certain) was > brought to the Wuhan wet market. The theorem makes no claims to any mechanisms, only proximate cause need be considered. One hypothesis says it happened because Wuhan has a wet market. The other says it happened because Wuhan has a virus lab. The theorem doesn't tell us anything about the details. Pangolins or other wild animals could have been brought to any wet market in China. There is nothing special about the wet market in Wuhan. >> There are 686 cities in China and therefore 686 wet markets. That >> means that the probability that the outbreak happened in Wuhan >> given that the coronavirus came from a wet market is 1/686. > I hit a golf ball 450 yards and it lands on one particular tuft of > grass. There are 686,686,686 tufts of grass the ball could have > landed on but it ignored all of them except for one. Therefore I > must have almost certainly been aiming at that particular tuft of > grass because the probability it was all random is only one chance > in 686,686,686. Or to put it in another simpler way, GIGO. Your example is a different kind of problem and bears no relevance to the Chinese bullshit theorem. Cities, labs, and wet markets are discrete entities and I used the discrete distribution version of Bayes' theorem. For golf balls on grass you should use a continuous distribution version of Bayes theorem. So yes, your example is indeed GIGO. > I'll give you another probability and I don't even need Bayes > theorem to calculate it; the probability that any large event in > modern human history will produce a crackpot conspiracy theory is > 100% . Here is an amusing bit of historical irony for you. The verb conspire, from which the noun conspiracy derives, comes from the Latin con- ("together with") and spirare ("to breathe"). So taken literally, to conspire is "to breathe together with" others. And since COVID-19 is a contagious respiratory disease, it literally spreads due to people conspiring. Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 25 21:48:24 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 14:48:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Garbage In Garbage Out In-Reply-To: <20200525103122.Horde.jeas97OqgxcOWb2fr0vXvlO@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200525103122.Horde.jeas97OqgxcOWb2fr0vXvlO@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 2:34 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Your example is a different kind of problem and bears no relevance to > the Chinese bullshit theorem. Actually, it does. He's pointing out that you're using inapplicable statistics. You're using the probability that it was a given city to substitute for the possibility that it could have been a city at all, versus the probability that it was a given lab as the possibility that it was a lab at all. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue May 26 08:18:44 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 09:18:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] trivia quiz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26a849bb-cff8-18bf-7a4a-a23f5e6aaa4a@zaiboc.net> On 25/05/2020 21:56, bill w wrote: > OK OK, before I get any more answers, all of which were lovely and > inspirational, here is the answer: > TADA TADA TADA!!! > The gadget used to tune strings on a piano is called a tuning hammer > for some reason hidden from me. I think a tuning hammer is so called because it looks (vaguely) like a hammer. The handle is perpendicular to the axis of rotation, not in line with it, so you don't twist it with your wrist, you pull it sideways. More control over small increments of tension on the string that way, which is necessary to tune a piano. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue May 26 08:34:06 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 09:34:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25/05/2020 21:56, bill w wrote: > Classic case of 'good enough for who it's for'.? bill w > > On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 11:17 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:30 AM The Avantguardian via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > > It is true that deleterious mutations are more common than > beneficial ones. It is the price that life pays for searching > fitness-space for greener pastures on the other side of the > valley of death. That being said, automotive engines display a > different sort of complexity than living systems. The > complexity of the car engine is imposed upon it a top-down > fashion. Because of that, the engine's parts are very > specialized and essential. This has the effect of making the > engine brittle and failure-prone. > > > No, engines are brittle because that's the way we design them. We > don't design them to last a million miles or to be inherently > redundant, we design them to be relatively robust, inexpensive, > and efficient. Would you pay $200,000 for a car that got 15 mpg, > performed like a Camry, and had an drive train that was unlikely > to ever need repair? Engineering is about trade-offs. > Manufacturers know what buyers will buy and design their products > to meet that demand. > > -Dave > Precisely. Everything is a case of 'good enough', why would it be otherwise? The important thing is that there are now intelligent, self-aware creatures whose 'good enough for' is not the same as evolution's. In fact we have many, so we end up with trade-offs, like the car engine. Our requirements for our own bodies will be different again, and quite a long way from those of evolution. That's why we need to (and will, I think) redesign biology, from a very fundamental level. And yes, we will introduce brittleness in some areas where nature doesn't, where it won't matter to us, just like it doesn't matter that a car engine is brittle because we can easily repair or replace it, more cheaply than making it very robust. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 26 12:47:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 08:47:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Garbage In Garbage Out In-Reply-To: <20200525103122.Horde.jeas97OqgxcOWb2fr0vXvlO@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200525103122.Horde.jeas97OqgxcOWb2fr0vXvlO@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 5:35 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Cities, labs, and wet markets are **discrete entities * No, their occurrence is not completely independent, in China both are far more likely to exist in regions of high population density. > *One hypothesis says it happened because Wuhan has a wet market. The > other says it happened because Wuhan has a virus lab.* The lab theory can not explain any observable phenomenon that the market theory can not, and the measures taken to prevent contagion in a Chinese Level 4 Biosafety Lab are VASTLY greater than the safety measures taken in a Chinese wet market, so one theory is VASTLY more likely to be true than the other. And wet markets have long been known to be dangerous, they caused the SARS epidemic in 2002. > *There is nothing special about the wet market in Wuhan.* Except that Huanan had the largest wet market in central China and one of the largest in the world with 1000 filthy shops selling crap and all crammed into an area of only 50,000 square meters. If you want to blame China for something, and I'm quite certain you do, then blame them for not shutting down those virus distribution centers called "wet markets" decades ago, and for continuing to use unscientific procedures and ridiculous ingredients in traditional Chinese "medicine", such as Pangolin scales for example. Now that's a conspiracy theory I can get behind! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue May 26 19:35:31 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 20:35:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> OK, I've still not heard anything from anyone who subscribes to the 'a copy of you is not you' school of thought, about my 'amoeba' question, Any takers? To reiterate the question: If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant people? Would they be two completely new people, unrelated to the original (who could now be regarded as dead), would they be two versions of the same person, each with an equally valid claim to be 'the original' (just as I can claim to be the 'original me' of 10 minutes ago), or would they be something else I've not thought about? Or is this thought experiment somehow flawed, and not relevant to the question? Any opinions? -- Ben Zaiboc From atymes at gmail.com Tue May 26 19:49:19 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 12:49:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 12:37 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > OK, I've still not heard anything from anyone who subscribes to the 'a > copy of you is not you' school of thought, about my 'amoeba' question, > I can reply, though I do not subscribe to that train of thought. > If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an > amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and > randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, > maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the > relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant people? > Personally, I would regard them starting out as the same person, but immediately becoming two distinct people who used to be the same person. "You" is timeline-dependent. The "you" of tomorrow is not the "you" of today, and neither are the "you" of yesterday. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 26 20:16:25 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:16:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 3:51 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Personally, I would regard them starting out as the same person, but > immediately becoming two distinct people who used to be the same person. > "You" is timeline-dependent. The "you" of tomorrow is not the "you" of > today, and neither are the "you" of yesterday.* I agree with all of that. And the "you" of yesterday could be said to have survived for another day if today there is something that remembers being the "you" of yesterday, and the name of that thing is the "you" of today. So far there has only been one thing like that on any given day that meets that definition, but that's only because of technological limitations and need not always be true. That's why I think the English language is going to need major modifications in the way it treats personal pronouns if it's going to remain being useful. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue May 26 20:33:57 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:33:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 3:51 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 12:37 PM Ben via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an >> > amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and >> randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, >> maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the >> relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant people? >> > > Personally, I would regard them starting out as the same person, but > immediately becoming two distinct people who used to be the same person. > I agree. The analogy from the software development world is a fork: two teams take a project in two different directions starting at exactly the same point. If the starting point is Joe the two forks would have different labels to identify them, e.g., Joe^1 and Joe^2. There's no longer just one Joe. The analogy breaks when you look closer, though, because usually the original developer or team maintains one of the branches, and that fork often keeps the Joe label. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 26 20:37:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:37:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong Message-ID: Nobel Prize winner in Economics Paul Krugman's column today is about Trump's inability to ever admit he was wrong, but Krugman notes that trait has spread to the entire Republican party: == *"While Trump?s insistence on his own infallibility is especially lurid, his party in general is now composed of never-wrongers, people who never concede awkward facts. And it has been that way for a while. I?m sure there were earlier examples but the inability of many on the right to admit error was really driven home to me in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis.For several years following the crisis, the U.S. government ran large budget deficits, mainly because the depressed state of the economy caused revenues to plunge and certain kinds of spending, especially unemployment benefits, to soar. At the same time, the Federal Reserve intervened heavily in financial markets, ?printing money? ? actually crediting banks with deposits created out of thin air, but close enough ? at a rapid pace.Many economists, including yours truly, considered these fiscal and monetary developments reasonable under the circumstances. It was, we argued, a good thing to run deficits in a slump, with little risk that these deficits would create any kind of crisis. It was also a good idea to print money, with little risk that doing so would lead to inflation.But many on the right had a different view. In May 2009, with unemployment at 9.4 percent and still rising, The Wall Street Journal declared that deficits would provoke an attack by the bond vigilantes. Commentators on Fox warned about imminent hyperinflation. A who?s who of conservatives sent an open letter to Ben Bernanke, the then Fed chairman, warning that he was debasing the dollar.Well, events proved one side of this debate right and the other wrong. There was no debt crisis, and interest rates stayed low. So did inflation. So you might have expected those who got it wrong to engage in some self-reflection about why they were so mistaken.But they didn?t. Almost without exception, those who predicted disaster from deficits and monetary expansion continued thundering the same warnings year after year, never conceding that they had been wrong. Bloomberg News actually contacted many of the signatories of that open letter to Bernanke four years later; every single signatory who replied insisted that the letter was right, even though the promised inflation never came.So in this, as in many other things, Trump is just a cruder, exaggerated version of what his whole party has become. Being a Republican, it seems, means never having to admit that you were wrong, about anything."* John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 26 20:55:36 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 13:55:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> >?Many economists, including yours truly, considered these fiscal and monetary developments reasonable under the circumstances. It was, we argued, a good thing to run deficits in a slump, with little risk that these deficits would create any kind of crisis. It was also a good idea to print money, with little risk that doing so would lead to inflation? Krugman John your theory will get a test very soon. If enormous deficits will really not hurt us, we will not need to worry a bit that government expenses at all levels and everywhere in the world, will be way up this year and their revenues way down. Let?s see if they can just print more money and make it all go away. If they do, why not just print more money instead of anyone going back to work? Why does anyone need to work? If we really can print our way out of trouble, why aren?t we doing it? My theory: we can?t print our way out of trouble. That would rob those whose reserves are in the form of cash, and those on fixed incomes such as pensions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue May 26 21:04:24 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 14:04:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 1:35 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The analogy from the software development world is a fork: two teams take > a project in two different directions starting at exactly the same point. > If the starting point is Joe the two forks would have different labels to > identify them, e.g., Joe^1 and Joe^2. There's no longer just one Joe. The > analogy breaks when you look closer, though, because usually the original > developer or team maintains one of the branches, and that fork often keeps > the Joe label. > In this case, the analogy breaks because there is no "original". A closer analogy would be when the original dev team schisms, both of them have a complete copy of the original repository and some of the original hardware (perhaps there was no single master repo server, but twin masters at the time of split, so one team takes one master and the other team takes the other), and the circumstances of the schism don't clearly point to either side being the "original" and the other one not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue May 26 21:27:42 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 07:27:42 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 05:37, Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > OK, I've still not heard anything from anyone who subscribes to the 'a > copy of you is not you' school of thought, about my 'amoeba' question, > Any takers? > > To reiterate the question: > > If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an > amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and > randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, > maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the > relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant people? > > Would they be two completely new people, unrelated to the original (who > could now be regarded as dead), would they be two versions of the same > person, each with an equally valid claim to be 'the original' (just as I > can claim to be the 'original me' of 10 minutes ago), or would they be > something else I've not thought about? > > Or is this thought experiment somehow flawed, and not relevant to the > question? > > Any opinions? They would be two versions of the same person each with equal claim to being the original. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 26 21:37:32 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 17:37:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>> ?Many economists, including yours truly, considered these fiscal and >> monetary developments reasonable under the circumstances. It was, we >> argued, a good thing to run deficits in a slump, with little risk that >> these deficits would create any kind of crisis. It was also a good idea to >> print money, with little risk that doing so would lead to inflation? >> Krugman* > > > > > John your theory > It's not my theory, it's the theory of a Nobel Prize winner in economics who was proven to be absolutely right in 2008 and the Republican deficit hawks were proven to be dead wrong, although they never admitted they were wrong about anything and they are singing the same silly song now as they did in 2008. > will get a test very soon. > And if it passes that test in 2020 as it did in 2008 will you admit that this time you were wrong and deficit spending is not always a bad thing and economic depression is just as bad as economic inflation? > *If they do, why not just print more money instead of anyone going back > to work? * > I've answered that question more than once, but you keep asking it over and over and over again. So I must conclude that you think if zero is too small a number for something to work in the real world and infinity is too large then there is no way there can be any number between those two extremes that could work. I disagree, I think such a number might exist. *> My theory: we can?t print our way out of trouble. * And in 2008 that theory turned out to be not worth a damn, what makes you think it will do any better in 2020? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 26 23:32:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:32:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> ?Many economists, including yours truly, considered these fiscal and monetary developments reasonable under the circumstances. It was, we argued, a good thing to run deficits in a slump, with little risk that these deficits would create any kind of crisis. It was also a good idea to print money, with little risk that doing so would lead to inflation? Krugman > John your theory It's not my theory, it's the theory of a Nobel Prize winner in economics who was proven to be absolutely right in 2008?. > will get a test very soon. And if it passes that test in 2020 as it did in 2008 ? John K Clark We are spending way more of the federal budget to service debt now than before 2008. If the 2020 isn?t extremely painful, then I would be even more for deep tax cuts. If we can somehow solve budget problems by printing more money, the tax rate should be in the single digits and the money-minting numbers should be in the 16 digits. I think we are fooling ourselves thinking we can print our way out of trouble. No country can do that, it doesn?t matter what form of government they have. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 27 00:21:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 19:21:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: The discussion so far has managed to sidestep an earlier issue - consciousness. Let's assume that this impossible operation is done while the original is asleep. When he wakes up he feels normal - right? The copy wakes up and what? They do not, cannot, share a consciousness, right? But the copy has all the memories of the original and so thinks he is that person whose mind and body he occupies. When told what happened he becomes psychotic - my guess. bill w On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:30 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 05:37, Ben via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> OK, I've still not heard anything from anyone who subscribes to the 'a >> copy of you is not you' school of thought, about my 'amoeba' question, >> Any takers? >> >> To reiterate the question: >> >> If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an >> amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and >> randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, >> maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the >> relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant people? >> >> Would they be two completely new people, unrelated to the original (who >> could now be regarded as dead), would they be two versions of the same >> person, each with an equally valid claim to be 'the original' (just as I >> can claim to be the 'original me' of 10 minutes ago), or would they be >> something else I've not thought about? >> >> Or is this thought experiment somehow flawed, and not relevant to the >> question? >> >> Any opinions? > > > They would be two versions of the same person each with equal claim to > being the original. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed May 27 00:29:54 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 10:29:54 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 10:23, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The discussion so far has managed to sidestep an earlier issue - > consciousness. > > Let's assume that this impossible operation is done while the original is > asleep. When he wakes up he feels normal - right? The copy wakes up and > what? They do not, cannot, share a consciousness, right? But the copy has > all the memories of the original and so thinks he is that person whose mind > and body he occupies. When told what happened he becomes psychotic - my > guess. > There is no basis for saying that one is the original and the other a copy. The reaction of the person to suddenly having a copy of himself would vary from person to person. Some would be pleased, others would be disturbed. On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:30 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 05:37, Ben via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> OK, I've still not heard anything from anyone who subscribes to the 'a >>> copy of you is not you' school of thought, about my 'amoeba' question, >>> Any takers? >>> >>> To reiterate the question: >>> >>> If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an >>> amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and >>> randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, >>> maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the >>> relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant >>> people? >>> >>> Would they be two completely new people, unrelated to the original (who >>> could now be regarded as dead), would they be two versions of the same >>> person, each with an equally valid claim to be 'the original' (just as I >>> can claim to be the 'original me' of 10 minutes ago), or would they be >>> something else I've not thought about? >>> >>> Or is this thought experiment somehow flawed, and not relevant to the >>> question? >>> >>> Any opinions? >> >> >> They would be two versions of the same person each with equal claim to >> being the original. >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed May 27 01:00:07 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 18:00:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 Message-ID: On Sunday, May 24, 2020, 06:04:09 PM UTC, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > You're worrying about the wrong thing, there has never been a time in American > history when interest rates were lower or inflation was less than right now. I think a big problem with this discussion is painting the effects of inflation and of deficit spending -- two separate things even if they often go together -- as either neutral (or good?) or leading to the Earth falling into the Sun. In my view, inflation and deficit spending both have deleterious effects, but that doesn't mean either will lead to society collapsing. I think of them more like having a bad diet or binge drinking. It's like the first time you eat gas station nachos is going to kill you, but it's not really go for you and the more you do it, all else being equal, the worse off you'll be. But usually all else isn't equal. Think of the documentary Super Size Me. The director/star goes on a McDonald's diet after basically eating healthy and having an active life style. But he doesn't just go on a McDonald's diet, he stops exercising. So, naturally, he puts on weight; I believe about 30 pounds in a month. Imagine he started the McDonald's diet but increased his workout. Probably not healthy, but he might have put on far less weight. > Herbert Hoover thought as you do and figured that the way to deal with the > economic difficulties of 1929 was to increase tariffs and drastically cut > government spending, and he succeeded in turning a garden variety recession > into a worldwide Great Depression. Point of fact, Hoover didn't cut spending. In fact, long before he became president, he was famous for being a Progressive and ran a quite activist Department of Commerce under both Harding and Coolidge. He was quite ready to throw money at any problem. Think of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. Add to this, FDR ran in 1932 saying he would balance the budget. Hoover started to run deficits after the 1920s had been basically years of budget surpluses. He also signed into law a tax to chop away at the deficit, but that was in 1932 and he was on the way out. The tax increase didn't, by the way, shrink the deficit. Hoover had his Square Deal which was the template, in a way, for the New Deal: vast interventions and an attempt to mobilize the economy for battle (against the downturn -- not for an actual war). See: https://www.history.com/news/great-depression-herbert-hoover-new-deal Now, coming to what made the Great Depression great, it wasn't cuts in government spending. Surely, the tariffs didn't help things, though one might make a case that it was his heavy-handed interference, which was unprecedented in previous recessions, that prolonged the recession. He worked to keep up salaries and prices, which meant the economy had a harder time adjusting. (I'm working off the view that what needs to happen to shorten any recession is for adjustments to be made as quickly as possible rather than keep prior arrangements -- prices, salaries, investments -- going when they don't make sense.) > And even in the worse inflation in American history it was less than 20%, I really > think we can make wheelbarrows fast enough to keep up with that, although if > your suggestion is followed the uprising from millions of penyless unemployed > may cause a shortage of guillotines. A big problem with inflation is it robs those furthest from where the inflated money enters the system the most and these are usually the most vulnerable people: those on pensions and those with low-paying fixed income jobs. This leads to many of them being penniless or the the equivalent. Inflation also distorts the structure of production, making for unsustainable projects. Again, this doesn't mean the Earth falls into the Sun and all life is extinguished. It means that there's more waste in an economy than there would be otherwise. It also drives the business cycle, so every now and then unsustainable projects collapse and all the monies invested are basically wasted. There's an opportunity cost here: investments that went into those projects likely would have gone into better, sustainable projects. (This is over and over the background rate of failure for projects. Think of inflation like adding fog into a harbor where no one realizes it's foggy: sometimes ships collide despite fog (the background rate), but fog (without precautions) leads to even more collisions, even more catastrophic ones.) Your other argument on deficits is similar: yeah, deficits, even big ones, don't end in the Earth opening up and swallowing civilization, but they lead to a less effective use of resources and less curbing of government interventions (since deficits are usually much more popular than raising taxes). Think of this as adding weights onto a runner's legs. Sure, the runner can still move, but now she has to run a little less quickly, she tires faster, and needs more calories to achieve the same results. By the way, there's basically four ways governments can be funded: taxes, deficits, inflation, and confiscation. The last is usually only used during extreme emergencies and doesn't make any friends. So, typically, most national governments bounce around between raising taxes (which is unpopular with the taxed because they can immediately feel the pain, but allows them to plan and seems to distort the economy less because of this), deficits (which pushes off raising taxes, but because of this also leads to more uncertainty: will and how ill the deficit be serviced), and inflation (which tends to cause business cycles and is overall hard to predict who will end up paying for its results, but has the immediate result of a boom). It's funny you mention the guillotine for two reasons. One, inflation and deficits played a role in the French Revolution. On the latter, it's because of huge deficits that Louis XVI called the Estates-General. And the rest is history. Two, in other posts, you've often used fear of the masses rising up and revolting. So I wonder if you identify more with the ruling elite than with the masses. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed May 27 01:23:48 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 18:23:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 5:23 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The discussion so far has managed to sidestep an earlier issue - > consciousness. > > Let's assume that this impossible operation is done while the original is > asleep. When he wakes up he feels normal - right? The copy wakes up and > what? > Also feels normal. They do not, cannot, share a consciousness, right? But the copy has all > the memories of the original and so thinks he is that person whose mind and > body he occupies. > Right. So there are now two different consciousnesses, that forked from the same original one. Also note that, given the operation, there is no such thing as "the original" afterward. There may be one that wakes up before the other, but both of them are equally the original at first. When told what happened he becomes psychotic - my guess. > Why? The person knows that there are two of him. Even if he and the other one agree that the other one gets to be treated as the original and he claims the title of a newborn copy, that would be a rational agreement, not the basis for psychosis. Even if the second person is bullied into seeing himself as a copy - so what? "I am a copy", when this is materially provable (in that there is some other who he and the other both agree is the "original") does not contain any cause or flavor of psychosis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed May 27 01:48:06 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 21:48:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I propose both are me Now I ask you who pays for upkeep of redundant self? Either I/we must compete for a narrow spectrum of job opportunities, one keeps my/our employer and the other finds a new employer (risking a conflict when HR calls to verify employment) or somehow I/we get to alternate on schedule or at whim. I'm confident health care won't tolerate redundant coverage, or maybe this is a great deal because only one of me/us needs healthcare and i/we can share since i/we can answer correctly all the health questions and relevant identity security protections. Or skip all that and go right to the hardware computing the sim: do i/we have to share cpu clock ticks? In that case my RAID-self is dangerously under-provisioned with only one failover in existence. Surely i/we can justify several additional clones, a checksum clone and a standby spare. At this point I'd probably be willing to allocate some of my own elastic compute to fire up an old "Lee Corbin Runtime" just to rummage around in the garage. If you don't know what that is, check the archives and let me know if you experience deja-vue or vuje-dae (to proxy-coin a spike-ism to mean a sense of the distant history feeling vaguely similar to the present if/when your personal timestream is reversed with respect to consensus observation) [though, as another point of reference, spike is also part of the I/we ensemble due to long ago promiscuity with login credentials and the invitation to masquerade as each other, now identity conversation have become muddied as qualia and the church of the indiscernible atom] So is our cloned consciousness bringing online another processing node in Humanity's effective computronium, or does another virtual machine running atop the sim hardware further divide the total available resource pool? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 03:40:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 20:40:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] plate readers Message-ID: <005e01d633d8$8bd98810$a38c9830$@rainier66.com> My city is all in a stir. The local constabulary wants to install license plate readers in strategic locations about the town, and have floated the notion on the neighborhood online forum. I am careful about what I write there (far more than I am about what I write here) because these people are my neighbors. They know how I am, and like me anyway. I commented that there is no violation of 4th amendment if they don?t aim the cameras into or at your home. I would think it would be a great tool for law enforcement. The opinions are split about evenly: some say it is an invasion of privacy. I chose to not post that we have no privacy outside our homes now. Hotel rooms must be treated as if you are being video and audio recorded because you might be already: bad guy hides one of those stand-alone transmitting cameras, a few days later he posts you the video of whatever you did in there, suggests he could be persuaded to not putting that on FaceBook with a modest pile of BitCoin. I haven?t actually heard of that happening, but we wouldn?t if it did, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed May 27 03:50:55 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 21:50:55 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "Printing Money" is only bad, because you can't remove printed money from the supply, when needed, resulting in inflation. But aren't they just lending money into the supply, creating a huge "balance sheet" which can be recalled and removed from the supply, should such actions be needed, to prevent inflation? On Tue, May 26, 2020, 5:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong > > > > > > On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *>**> **?Many economists, including yours truly, considered these fiscal > and monetary developments reasonable under the circumstances. It was, we > argued, a good thing to run deficits in a slump, with little risk that > these deficits would create any kind of crisis. It was also a good idea to > print money, with little risk that doing so would lead to inflation? > Krugman* > > > > > John your theory > > > > It's not my theory, it's the theory of a Nobel Prize winner in economics > who was proven to be absolutely right in 2008?. > > > > > will get a test very soon. > > > > And if it passes that test in 2020 as it did in *2008 ?* > > John K Clark > > > > > > We are spending way more of the federal budget to service debt now than > before 2008. > > > > If the 2020 isn?t extremely painful, then I would be even more for deep > tax cuts. If we can somehow solve budget problems by printing more money, > the tax rate should be in the single digits and the money-minting numbers > should be in the 16 digits. > > > > I think we are fooling ourselves thinking we can print our way out of > trouble. No country can do that, it doesn?t matter what form of government > they have. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed May 27 04:22:27 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 00:22:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Increasing and decreasing the balance sheet are not symmetrical operations. They can print as much money as they want to buy assets and increase money supply. However, when they wind down the balance sheet, they are constrained by the current price of a security they are selling. They don't have the ability to create bonds out of thin air like they can do for dollars. There are other things to worry about beyond inflation. Continuous large scale Central Bank interventions distort underlying financial markets and do not let proper signalling occur. All that said about the Fed, I don't think people are really talking about them directly here in the context of expanding US deficits. That doesn't really involve "printing money." The Treasury finances deficits by conducting auctions of Federal debt. The risk is that demand isn't there due to vastness of supply / loss of confidence causing interest rates to climb, leading to inflation. This has the potential to quickly turn into an unvirtuous cycle. Of course, the Fed in theory could be a buyer of last resort of said US Treasuries, but the dollar would likely suffer as a currency if that happened on a very large scale. On Tue, May 26, 2020, 11:54 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > "Printing Money" is only bad, because you can't remove printed money from > the supply, when needed, resulting in inflation. > > But aren't they just lending money into the supply, creating a huge > "balance sheet" which can be recalled and removed from the supply, should > such actions be needed, to prevent inflation? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Wed May 27 06:06:40 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 01:06:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Here is a purported proof in the affirmative: https://web.archive.org/web/20081122035412/http://www.leecorbin.com/dupproof.html And a nice story to accompany it: https://web.archive.org/web/20081122035540/http://www.leecorbin.com/PitAndDuplicate.html Jason On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 2:37 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > OK, I've still not heard anything from anyone who subscribes to the 'a > copy of you is not you' school of thought, about my 'amoeba' question, > Any takers? > > To reiterate the question: > > If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an > amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and > randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, > maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the > relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant people? > > Would they be two completely new people, unrelated to the original (who > could now be regarded as dead), would they be two versions of the same > person, each with an equally valid claim to be 'the original' (just as I > can claim to be the 'original me' of 10 minutes ago), or would they be > something else I've not thought about? > > Or is this thought experiment somehow flawed, and not relevant to the > question? > > Any opinions? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed May 27 07:59:04 2020 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:59:04 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: There is no fundamental difference between tomorrow-me, today-me, and yesterday-me. Likewise, there is no difference between here-me and over-there-me.Today-me can send a signal to tomorrow-me, but not to the yesterday-me. In the case of a bad memory not even to the tomorrow-me. All those mes are just co-incarnations (or re-incarnations) of each other. With some perfect memory copies or without them, with a wide or narrow or no communication channel at all. Which has some weird implications to swallow, but that's that. On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:09 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Here is a purported proof in the affirmative: > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20081122035412/http://www.leecorbin.com/dupproof.html > > And a nice story to accompany it: > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20081122035540/http://www.leecorbin.com/PitAndDuplicate.html > > Jason > > On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 2:37 PM Ben via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> OK, I've still not heard anything from anyone who subscribes to the 'a >> copy of you is not you' school of thought, about my 'amoeba' question, >> Any takers? >> >> To reiterate the question: >> >> If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an >> amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and >> randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, >> maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the >> relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant people? >> >> Would they be two completely new people, unrelated to the original (who >> could now be regarded as dead), would they be two versions of the same >> person, each with an equally valid claim to be 'the original' (just as I >> can claim to be the 'original me' of 10 minutes ago), or would they be >> something else I've not thought about? >> >> Or is this thought experiment somehow flawed, and not relevant to the >> question? >> >> Any opinions? >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 11:42:04 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 07:42:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:25 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *However, when they wind down the balance sheet,* > If by that you mean reduce the amount of debt I doubt that will ever happen and see no reason why it should ever happen; and the worst time imaginable to even consider doing such a thing would be in the middle of a global economic depression caused by a global biological pandemic. > > *they are constrained by the current price of a security they are > selling. * > We have a lot of economic problems today but that is not one of them. If nobody is buying a bond then the solution is to reduce its price, but today bonds have never been more expensive and yields have never been lower yet people still buy them so there is no need to reduce their price. > > *They don't have the ability to create bonds out of thin air like they > can do for dollars. * > Of course they do, even companies can create bonds out of thin air. > * > I don't think people are really talking about them directly here in > the context of expanding US deficits. That doesn't really involve > "printing money." The Treasury finances deficits by conducting auctions of > Federal debt. * > A distinction without a difference. *>The risk is that demand isn't there due to vastness of supply / loss of > confidence causing interest rates to climb, leading to inflation. * > If demand isn't there then increase interest rates, but demand is there even though interest rates are currently low. Ridiculously low! The yield on a 2 year treasury bill is only 0.19%, the lowest in history. And the average 30 year fixed rate mortgage is 3.23%, also the lowest in history. The deficit hawks are like a doctor refusing to feed a 70 pound starving man because he's worried about the dangers of obesity. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 11:59:45 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 07:59:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 7:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *If we can somehow solve budget problems by printing more money, the > tax rate should be in the single digits and the money-minting numbers > should be in the 16 digits.* > And so like a mantra you repeat that same tired old line yet again; I've lost track of how many times. *> I think we are fooling ourselves thinking we can print our way out of > trouble. No country can do that,* > The US did exactly precisely that in 2008 when we were like a pencil balanced on its tip and about to fall into economic catastrophe, it's the only reason we didn't have a repeat of 1929. At least some people learn from past mistakes. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 12:29:33 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 08:29:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 8:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Let's assume that this impossible operation is done while the original is > asleep. > Violating the Second Law of Thermodynamics, faster than light movement, and traveling into the past is impossible; what you're talking about is not impossible, it just requires better engineering than what we can achieve today. > When he wakes up he feels normal - right? The copy wakes up and what? > And then both do what they have always done when they wake up. > They do not, cannot, share a consciousness, right? > No that's not right. They will share the same consciousness until something makes them diverge, like one of them seeing something the other does not and forming different memories because they are now in different environments. > But the copy has all the memories of the original and so thinks he is > that person whose mind and body he occupies. > And what he thinks would be absolutely correct. After all, exactly what is so original about "the original"? > When told what happened he becomes psychotic - my guess. > I wouldn't mind in the slightest being told I was the copy, in fact I'd be delighted because that would mean that engineering had reached the point where immortality becomes feasible. So I wouldn't become psychotic, or at least not more psychotic than I already am. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rahmans at me.com Wed May 27 12:53:40 2020 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:53:40 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong Message-ID: > >> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong > > On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 4:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > > wrote: > >>> ?Many economists, including yours truly, considered these fiscal and monetary developments reasonable under the circumstances. It was, we argued, a good thing to run deficits in a slump, with little risk that these deficits would create any kind of crisis. It was also a good idea to print money, with little risk that doing so would lead to inflation? Krugman > >> John your theory > > It's not my theory, it's the theory of a Nobel Prize winner in economics who was proven to be absolutely right in 2008?. > >> will get a test very soon. > > And if it passes that test in 2020 as it did in 2008 ? > > John K Clark > > We are spending way more of the federal budget to service debt now than before 2008. > > If the 2020 isn?t extremely painful, then I would be even more for deep tax cuts. If we can somehow solve budget problems by printing more money, the tax rate should be in the single digits and the money-minting numbers should be in the 16 digits. > > I think we are fooling ourselves thinking we can print our way out of trouble. No country can do that, it doesn?t matter what form of government they have. > > spike > Well, except for Empires and Colonialist systems where the threat and the use of force can prop up the use of your currency and the ?legal terms? of your ?agreements?. Remember: money, all money, is just trust symbols. And if I ?trust? that you will shoot me unless I agree to your conditions??I guess effective coercion is a form of trust. Certainly, pointing/using guns has been used as a ?means of exchange?. Examples: Salt monopoly in India. (The word salary is derived from Latin for ?salt? by the way.) Opium monopoly in China. (Specifically designed to ?redress? the trade/currency imbalance between China and the British Empire.) Beads for land. Manhattan for a bushel of beads? What?s the exchange rate on those? I gotta get me some beads! ?Oh, you thought you were granting temporary camping rights? Look at this document in Latin?now look at these muskets?.now look at the document?can you now understand everything you need to know about Latin and contract law? Do you need to see some more muskets?" etc. etc. etc. Libertarian Capitalists engage in such magical thinking. Thinking that corporations, motivated solely by profit, free from taxation and regulation will somehow produce a better society. Why? With all the historical examples, why? ?Wilful ignorance? = ?intellectual dishonesty?=?propagandism? "The Tragedy of the Commons" is often brought out a downside of (insert left wing idea here). While in fact it is exactly and explicitly the modus operandi of capitalism: pollute the air and water, form a monopoly, claim the land, enslave the workers. These are not bugs in the system: these are the features. The Boston Tea Party?s slogan was: ?No taxation without representation.? The implication is that they would have accepted taxation if they were adequately represented. The Libertarian Capitalist slogan is: ?No taxation I?ve got all the representation.? i.e. Citizen?s United = they already bought all the politicians. Obviously in response to years of deficit spending there will have to be some sort of response. Which response are we going to see? More taxation & balanced budget amendments OR The Next Big War Free market economics indicate that we will see all branches of the ?exchange rate adjustment forces? deployed. A proxy war with some country that is going into China?s orbit would seem like a ?logical? choice; somewhere in Africa this time? (They are almost getting up off their knees after 500+ of colonialism/imperialism so it is about time.) Stop whining about paying taxes! The alternative is corporate domination and endless war. Yours truly, Omar Rahman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed May 27 12:54:43 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 07:54:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: <006201d63039$24b55120$6e1ff360$@rainier66.com> <00c301d6304c$093d5330$1bb7f990$@rainier66.com> <004201d6305c$34eab5d0$9ec02170$@rainier66.com> <006a01d63067$4a41cf80$dec56e80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d63094$95795c20$c06c1460$@rainier66.com> <009501d6312a$0e494a80$2adbdf80$@rainier66.com> <00cc01d6312e$60ec3dc0$22c4b940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <63AFFEBD-A648-44FD-888F-6DAF15C8A93D@gmail.com> Because then you have absolutely no privacy from your employer and all your personal business can be monitored and tracked by your employer in the name of ?building security?. Certainly people might want to live away from work, ensuring their ability to say ?no? to extra shifts, or not get a door knock from their boss when they say they are ill. SR Ballard > On May 23, 2020, at 1:32 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Rather than cars, I think of food. Already existing in places are highrise buildings where produce is grown under sun and artificial light. Why not combine the building with apartments for the workers there? Why not build places where you just walk across the hall to go to work? Support staff will live in basements, which can be several stories deep. Solves many problems such as transportation to work. Ban private vehicles - use all public buses and trains. I am quite sure that I did not steal these ideas from anyone and also sure that they are not unique. bill w > >> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >> Subject: Re: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 >> >> >> >> re Oakland and no reason to go there: "There's no there there." Gertrude Stein. >> >> >> >> bill w >> >> >> >> >> >> I disagree! There is a there there. There is simultaneously too much there there and not enough there there. If you mean with the term ?there? the square meters of ground space there, then there is not enough there there. If you use the term ?there? to mean population, there is way too much there there. If ?there? means both, then there is simultaneously not enough there and too much there there. Their need is for more there there or less there there, depending on how you use ?there?. >> >> >> >> Oakland is too crowded. San Francisco is worse. Of course these are great places for a virus to move to and raise a big family. Their problem is in having plenty of virus families there. >> >> >> >> As we struggle in our current predicament, do think of ways to salvage the big cities, to get proles in and out of that place safely. I think there are ways to do it and save nearly all the current infrastructure. The lithium battery has opened a lot of possibilities. Think of a small personal vehicle, battery powered, which completely encloses a prole, capable of guiding itself onto a train. Think of something that would take up no more space than a wheelchair. It doesn?t need to go fast (top speed of about 15 km/hr is plenty (for people on foot that is a practical cruising speed.)) >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed May 27 13:15:00 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:15:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:44 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:25 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *However, when they wind down the balance sheet,* >> > > If by that you mean reduce the amount of debt I doubt that will ever > happen and see no reason why it should ever happen; and the worst time > imaginable to even consider doing such a thing would be in the middle of a > global economic depression caused by a global biological pandemic. > > No, that's not what I mean. Brent was talking about the balance sheet of the Fed, something entirely different from the debt of the US as a nation. The Fed never carried a big balance sheet before QE and the financial crisis. They were in the process of winding it down until the latest QE around CV-19. I'm not speaking to the US debt load, although because of QE that Fed currently holds a significant portion of it. > > *they are constrained by the current price of a security they are >> selling. * >> > > We have a lot of economic problems today but that is not one of them. If > nobody is buying a bond then the solution is to reduce its price, but today > bonds have never been more expensive and yields have never been lower yet > people still buy them so there is no need to reduce their price. > The Fed is also not liquidating its balance sheet right now. It's partially creating the demand (purposefully) for US Treasuries. You're assuming there will always be buyers at good prices when they need to unwind. > > >> > *They don't have the ability to create bonds out of thin air like they >> can do for dollars. * >> > > Of course they do, even companies can create bonds out of thin air. > John, please get more educated on a topic before saying something with certainty. The Fed is bound by the rules of its charter. THEY cannot create government bonds. If you're talking about the US Treasury which you likely are based on your response above, that's another story entirely. The distinction however is important. Again, Brent asked about the Fed's balance sheet, not the US government's. > > >> * > I don't think people are really talking about them directly here in >> the context of expanding US deficits. That doesn't really involve >> "printing money." The Treasury finances deficits by conducting auctions of >> Federal debt. * >> > > A distinction without a difference. > Again, John, learn more about a topic before pontificating on it. Brent's question was about the Fed printing money and expanding THEIR balance sheet, at least that's the way it was worded. I was pointing out the Fed does not print money to finance US deficits. There is an important distinction there. > > *>The risk is that demand isn't there due to vastness of supply / loss of >> confidence causing interest rates to climb, leading to inflation. * >> > > If demand isn't there then increase interest rates, but demand is there > even though interest rates are currently low. Ridiculously low! The yield > on a 2 year treasury bill is only 0.19%, the lowest in history. And the > average 30 year fixed rate mortgage is 3.23%, also the lowest in history. > The deficit hawks are like a doctor refusing to feed a 70 pound starving > man because he's worried about the dangers of obesity. > > Demand is there until it isn't. It's there because the US is still the global reserve currency, considered a safe haven with an established rule of law, and is still paying higher rates than the rest of the developed world. The US debt is a burden on future productivity and already consumes 8.7% of the US budget and is more than 100% of GDP. Additionally, I'm surprised you continue to lament the death of libertarians on this list in the age of Trump when you appear to be far from one yourself. You seem perfectly happy with central banks distorting financial markets to such a large degree that it is impossible to disentangle real signals that the market may be trying to bubble up. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 13:20:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 06:20:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 60% go for launch Message-ID: <005501d63429$a28a89a0$e79f9ce0$@rainier66.com> If the weather holds, Space-X will make history today: the first private company to launch proles into orbit. Current forecast, 60% chance for a go. Launch scheduled for 16:33 EDT. Good luck, Elon! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed May 27 13:21:56 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 08:21:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <2DE7E802-ED4E-4D02-8561-CF60A2AC6B01@gmail.com> My opinion is as follows: The amoeba question is just the Ship of Theseus. It has whatever answer you would like it to have. The ?daughter? amoebas are simultaneously the same as the ?mother? amoeba without actually being the mother amoeba. If you were to copy yourself instantly with exactly duplicate memories, then you(a), as an agent would be unable to tell if it was you(a) or you(b) that was the mother-copy or the daughter-copy. Effectively, you(a) and you(b) are now just a normal set of twins. >From now on, any question about copies can be answered using the logic of twins. If I (twin-a) am killed, do I continue to live on through them (twin-b)? No. Assuming that the mother-copy is marked in some way, and we can know that twin-a is the mother-copy, then clearly twin-b has no claim to twin-a?s property, wife, children, etc just as in a normal twin relationship. However, because twin-a is here the mother-copy, they might be obliged to some kind of ?parental duty? in the form of money or lodging to ensure twin-b can start off well in the world. The only way we could consider twin-a and twin-b to be one ?you? (one coherent identity instead of twins) is if there was continuous bidirectional uploading. For example, you(a) and you(b) go about your daily experiences as normal. When you sleep your ?consciousness file? is synced. After sleeping you will have some form of ?shared? memory with your other self. That is the only way that ?you? could exist in two bodies: if you were able to, in some way, share consciousness between the two. From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 13:28:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:28:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Summer weather and COVID-19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 9:03 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > FDR ran in 1932 saying he would balance the budget. And like most politicians he did not keep his campaign promise, but in this case it's a very good thing that he did not. As a percentage of the GDP the largest debt in American history occurred in 1945 and it didn't result in disaster, in fact the US dominated the world economy for decades after. > *>A big problem with inflation is it robs those furthest from where the > inflated money enters the system the most and these are usually the most > vulnerable people: those on pensions and those with low-paying fixed income > jobs. This leads to many of them being penniless or the the equivalent. > Inflation also distorts the structure of production, making for > unsustainable projects.* I don't disagree with any of that, in 1980 inflation was 13.5% and that's way too high, but 1980 was a walk in the park compared to 1932 which had no inflation whatsoever. And why are we even talking about inflation when today it is the lowest in recorded history? > *> Two, in other posts, you've often used fear of the masses rising up and > revolting. So I wonder if you identify more with the ruling elite than with > the masses.* I try not to identify with either and look at things dispassionately, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the US government decides to do nothing and at least 40 million families have zero income and zero health coverage in the middle of a global pandemic then the future looks very bright for guillotine manufacturers. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed May 27 13:29:04 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:29:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 60% go for launch In-Reply-To: <005501d63429$a28a89a0$e79f9ce0$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d63429$a28a89a0$e79f9ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Very exciting stuff! I'm hoping they make it up today with the weather. If not, I think the two next launch windows are Saturday and Sunday. On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > If the weather holds, Space-X will make history today: the first private > company to launch proles into orbit. Current forecast, 60% chance for a > go. Launch scheduled for 16:33 EDT. Good luck, Elon! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed May 27 13:33:52 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 08:33:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <2DE7E802-ED4E-4D02-8561-CF60A2AC6B01@gmail.com> References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> <2DE7E802-ED4E-4D02-8561-CF60A2AC6B01@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E76DC8A-AE85-4696-B3E2-7ED658062E10@gmail.com> To continue because I forgot to finish: If the mother-copy is destroyed and two daughter-copies are created (such as in the amoeba), then neither are the original. That are twins, daughter-a and daughter-b. Twin rules still apply. I think, as in traditional cloning, they should be seen as decedents, even though they are genetically identical. However, since they are not children (they are adults), they should get an inheritance. Mother-copy is dead and so property and goods must be split between daughter-copies and any ?natural? (non-amoeba) children. Neither daughter-copy is married, because mother copy was married, and daughter-copies share a twin relationship with mother-copy. Your twin doesn?t get to marry your wife when you die? your wife decides if she will marry them. Since you are a daughter-copy you also legally don?t have any children anymore, they are mother-copies children. Though I imagine the children might feel differently. You?re unemployed. It was your mother-copy who had the job. And so on. SR Ballard > On May 27, 2020, at 8:21 AM, SR Ballard wrote: > > My opinion is as follows: > > The amoeba question is just the Ship of Theseus. It has whatever answer you would like it to have. The ?daughter? amoebas are simultaneously the same as the ?mother? amoeba without actually being the mother amoeba. > > If you were to copy yourself instantly with exactly duplicate memories, then you(a), as an agent would be unable to tell if it was you(a) or you(b) that was the mother-copy or the daughter-copy. Effectively, you(a) and you(b) are now just a normal set of twins. > > From now on, any question about copies can be answered using the logic of twins. > > If I (twin-a) am killed, do I continue to live on through them (twin-b)? No. > > Assuming that the mother-copy is marked in some way, and we can know that twin-a is the mother-copy, then clearly twin-b has no claim to twin-a?s property, wife, children, etc just as in a normal twin relationship. > > However, because twin-a is here the mother-copy, they might be obliged to some kind of ?parental duty? in the form of money or lodging to ensure twin-b can start off well in the world. > > The only way we could consider twin-a and twin-b to be one ?you? (one coherent identity instead of twins) is if there was continuous bidirectional uploading. For example, you(a) and you(b) go about your daily experiences as normal. When you sleep your ?consciousness file? is synced. After sleeping you will have some form of ?shared? memory with your other self. That is the only way that ?you? could exist in two bodies: if you were able to, in some way, share consciousness between the two. From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 27 14:03:13 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:03:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <2DE7E802-ED4E-4D02-8561-CF60A2AC6B01@gmail.com> References: <8d49b7ea-6f17-79cf-910a-3f392a2150d4@zaiboc.net> <2DE7E802-ED4E-4D02-8561-CF60A2AC6B01@gmail.com> Message-ID: Effectively, you(a) and you(b) are now just a normal set of twins. SR Ballard Not so. Identical twins are not identical. And we are pretending that a perfect copy can be made, and that is wrong too. So we are dealing hypothetically just for fun. bill w On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:33 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My opinion is as follows: > > The amoeba question is just the Ship of Theseus. It has whatever answer > you would like it to have. The ?daughter? amoebas are simultaneously the > same as the ?mother? amoeba without actually being the mother amoeba. > > If you were to copy yourself instantly with exactly duplicate memories, > then you(a), as an agent would be unable to tell if it was you(a) or you(b) > that was the mother-copy or the daughter-copy. Effectively, you(a) and > you(b) are now just a normal set of twins. > > From now on, any question about copies can be answered using the logic of > twins. > > If I (twin-a) am killed, do I continue to live on through them (twin-b)? > No. > > Assuming that the mother-copy is marked in some way, and we can know that > twin-a is the mother-copy, then clearly twin-b has no claim to twin-a?s > property, wife, children, etc just as in a normal twin relationship. > > However, because twin-a is here the mother-copy, they might be obliged to > some kind of ?parental duty? in the form of money or lodging to ensure > twin-b can start off well in the world. > > The only way we could consider twin-a and twin-b to be one ?you? (one > coherent identity instead of twins) is if there was continuous > bidirectional uploading. For example, you(a) and you(b) go about your daily > experiences as normal. When you sleep your ?consciousness file? is synced. > After sleeping you will have some form of ?shared? memory with your other > self. That is the only way that ?you? could exist in two bodies: if you > were able to, in some way, share consciousness between the two. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 27 14:29:51 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:29:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27/05/2020 07:07, bill w wrote: > The discussion so far has managed to sidestep an earlier issue - > consciousness. > > Let's assume that this impossible operation is done while the original > is asleep. When he wakes up he feels normal - right?? The copy wakes > up and what?? They do not, cannot, share a consciousness, right?? But > the copy has all the memories of the original and so thinks he is that > person whose mind and body he occupies.? When told what happened he > becomes psychotic - my guess. > My point is that they are both 'copies'. The original exists in the past, but after the procedure there are two identical versions. One can't be identified as 'the original' and the other 'the copy', they are both exactly the same. If one is going to become psychotic, so is the other. You're right that they do not share a single consciousness, instead they both have their own consciousness, which is exactly the same as before the procedure. Of course, they will go their own ways and become increasingly different people, afterwards, just as you are a different person from the hypothetical you that didn't go to college. The only difference between them is that one is on the right and one on the left, whereas the original was in the middle. You could think of it like the many-worlds interpretation, where each moment a new you branches off in a new universe. Actually, I've not thought of it like this before. Surely anyone who thinks that a copy of you can't really be you, must think the same about all the you's in all the different universes? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 27 14:48:00 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:48:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68225730-1316-d196-8f57-e1bb88777c6f@zaiboc.net> On 27/05/2020 14:29, SR Ballard wrote: > The amoeba question is just the Ship of Theseus. In which case, all living beings are a Ship of Theseus. Which sounds right. Our bodies are constantly being renewed, molecules replaced. This thought experiment is just an extension of that. > It has whatever answer you would like it to have. The ?daughter? amoebas are simultaneously the same as the ?mother? amoeba without actually being the mother amoeba. > > If you were to copy yourself instantly with exactly duplicate memories, then you(a), as an agent would be unable to tell if it was you(a) or you(b) that was the mother-copy or the daughter-copy. Effectively, you(a) and you(b) are now just a normal set of twins. My point is that the mother-copy only exists in the past. After the procedure, it's been transformed into two individuals. > >From now on, any question about copies can be answered using the logic of twins. > > If I (twin-a) am killed, do I continue to live on through them (twin-b)? No. Agreed. > Assuming that the mother-copy is marked in some way That's a different experiment. In mine, there is literally no way to tell. The molecules are randomly assigned to each version, so even isotopic labelling wouldn't work. Each version would have equal amounts of the label. > ... > The only way we could consider twin-a and twin-b to be one ?you? (one coherent identity instead of twins) is if there was continuous bidirectional uploading. For example, you(a) and you(b) go about your daily experiences as normal. When you sleep your ?consciousness file? is synced. After sleeping you will have some form of ?shared? memory with your other self. That is the only way that ?you? could exist in two bodies: if you were able to, in some way, share consciousness between the two. Ah, now that's a different scenario. A very interesting one, but not what I'm talking about here. -- Ben Zaiboc From giulio at gmail.com Wed May 27 15:17:02 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 17:17:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] 60% go for launch In-Reply-To: <005501d63429$a28a89a0$e79f9ce0$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d63429$a28a89a0$e79f9ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Kudos to Elon for getting this far. I'll be glued to the screen. On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:25 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > If the weather holds, Space-X will make history today: the first private > company to launch proles into orbit. Current forecast, 60% chance for a > go. Launch scheduled for 16:33 EDT. Good luck, Elon! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed May 27 15:37:14 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 08:37:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? Message-ID: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 05:37, Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> OK, I've still not heard anything from anyone who subscribes to the 'a >> copy of you is not you' school of thought, about my 'amoeba' question, >> Any takers? > >> To reiterate the question: > >> If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an > amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and > randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, > maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the > relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant people? > > Would they be two completely new people, unrelated to the original (who > could now be regarded as dead), would they be two versions of the same > person, each with an equally valid claim to be 'the original' (just as I > can claim to be the 'original me' of 10 minutes ago), or would they be > something else I've not thought about? > >> Or is this thought experiment somehow flawed, and not relevant to the > question? > .> Any opinions? > They would be two versions of the same person each with equal claim to being the original. This is the conclusion reached in the early 90s on this list. There are still arguments as to when duplication of people should happen. I have argued that it should only be in cases such as crew members for starships where you can't find enough people to fill them. Robin Hanson thinks duplicated people will fill the labor market and drive the value of labor to zero. If the legal rule is to split a person's wealth with copies, then if the equipment was inexpensive, you could make beggers of the richest people by running off vast numbers of copies. Perhaps there will be a market for copy insurance. In "the Clinic Seed" I expanded this slightly by allowing one active copy in either the physical state or uploaded but not both at the same time. To muddy the waters, I allowed conscious to be continuous over the upload/download process and memory to be passively updated in the inactive physical state body. (Given nanotech, this is not hard.) This subject was beaten to death long ago. Best wishes, Keith From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 15:43:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 08:43:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 60% go for launch In-Reply-To: References: <005501d63429$a28a89a0$e79f9ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00eb01d6343d$95f7c220$c1e74660$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Cc: Giulio Prisco Subject: Re: [ExI] 60% go for launch >>?If the weather holds, Space-X will make history today: the first private company to launch proles into orbit. Current forecast, 60% chance for a go. Launch scheduled for 16:33 EDT. Good luck, Elon! >?Kudos to Elon for getting this far. I'll be glued to the screen? Giulio Giulio, there?s another reason I am really cheering for SpaceX. In the rocket world, we have long known it is expensive as all get out have one-use rockets. If they are solids, you might have the option of dropping them into the sea and recovering, then refurbishing, but that isn?t a great option, and doesn?t work with liquid stages, which are huge investment in each. In the controls world, we realized back in the 80s that a fly-back first stage landing on its own feet had become technologically feasible, but NASA being the ever-cautious government body, never chose that option. That feet-first landing business was ever so much more dignified than having to be fished out of the sea. From a controls perspective, oh my what a marvelous feat it is. I went most of my adult life hoping someday we would see someone somewhere try it. Well, here we go. I have friends who still work out at the cape. I talked to one yesterday, who is my age and lived right there the whole time, in the 60s. He has seen it all, and definitely agrees: seeing two liquid boosters come down feet first and land next to each other is the coolest thing he ever saw. As a controls engineer, I can never get enough of it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed May 27 15:53:02 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 17:53:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] 60% go for launch In-Reply-To: <00eb01d6343d$95f7c220$c1e74660$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d63429$a28a89a0$e79f9ce0$@rainier66.com> <00eb01d6343d$95f7c220$c1e74660$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am cheering for SpaceX for this and many other reasons. But I think SpaceX still needs some public support and funding, and I am worried for the future. On 2020. May 27., Wed at 17:46, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > *Cc:* Giulio Prisco > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 60% go for launch > > > > > > >>?If the weather holds, Space-X will make history today: the first > private company to launch proles into orbit. Current forecast, 60% chance > for a go. Launch scheduled for 16:33 EDT. Good luck, Elon! > > > > > > >?Kudos to Elon for getting this far. I'll be glued to the screen? Giulio > > > > > > Giulio, there?s another reason I am really cheering for SpaceX. In the > rocket world, we have long known it is expensive as all get out have > one-use rockets. If they are solids, you might have the option of dropping > them into the sea and recovering, then refurbishing, but that isn?t a great > option, and doesn?t work with liquid stages, which are huge investment in > each. > > > > In the controls world, we realized back in the 80s that a fly-back first > stage landing on its own feet had become technologically feasible, but NASA > being the ever-cautious government body, never chose that option. That > feet-first landing business was ever so much more dignified than having to > be fished out of the sea. From a controls perspective, oh my what a > marvelous feat it is. I went most of my adult life hoping someday we would > see someone somewhere try it. > > > > Well, here we go. > > > > I have friends who still work out at the cape. I talked to one yesterday, > who is my age and lived right there the whole time, in the 60s. He has > seen it all, and definitely agrees: seeing two liquid boosters come down > feet first and land next to each other is the coolest thing he ever saw. > As a controls engineer, I can never get enough of it. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 16:10:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:10:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat >...This subject was beaten to death long ago. >...Best wishes, Keith _______________________________________________ How I wish I could split myself into to identical copies. Then I could play together. Regarding beating a subject to death, it has been such a pleasure to see some favorite old topics get beaten back to life. With regard to subjects we discussed at length in the 1990s, what is the really big difference between then and now? What makes it worthwhile to listen to how the younger generation deals with the same questions we did a long time ago, with new players, such as Regina and Bill and the other new kids on the block. They bring new perspective, even if they end up in the same channels we wore into the path. So what is different now? My answer: the biggest difference is in how much online material is available free for anyone to get up to speed quickly on anything. There is 100 times more reference material and 100 times better online resources now compared to the early 90s. >...Robin Hanson thinks duplicated people will... Anyone heard from Robin lately? He was in town a few yrs ago, we went to dinner to celebrate Pete McCluskey's wedding. As I recall he was still doing the professor biz at George Mason U. I don't have his current @, but at one time it was rhanson at gmu.edu I think. Does anyone have a current @ for him? Please invite him to drop by just to greet old friends. Robin, me lad, are ye there? We miss you buddy! spike From emerhorne at gmail.com Wed May 27 16:09:55 2020 From: emerhorne at gmail.com (Tristan Linck) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:09:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 60% go for launch In-Reply-To: <00eb01d6343d$95f7c220$c1e74660$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d63429$a28a89a0$e79f9ce0$@rainier66.com> <00eb01d6343d$95f7c220$c1e74660$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-05-27 11:43, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > *On Behalf Of *Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > *Cc:* Giulio Prisco > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 60% go for launch > > >>?If the weather holds, Space-X will make history today: the first > private company to launch proles into orbit. Current forecast, 60% > chance for a go.? Launch scheduled for 16:33 EDT.? Good luck, Elon! > > >?Kudos to Elon for getting this far. I'll be glued to the screen?? Giulio > > Giulio, there?s another reason I am really cheering for SpaceX.? In > the rocket world, we have long known it is expensive as all get out > have one-use rockets.? If they are solids, you might have the option > of dropping them into the sea and recovering, then refurbishing, but > that isn?t a great option, and doesn?t work with liquid stages, which > are huge investment in each. > > In the controls world, we realized back in the 80s that a fly-back > first stage landing on its own feet had become technologically > feasible, but NASA being the ever-cautious government body, never > chose that option.? That feet-first landing business was ever so much > more dignified than having to be fished out of the sea. From a > controls perspective, oh my what a marvelous feat it is.? I went most > of my adult life hoping someday we would see someone somewhere try it. > > Well, here we go. > > I have friends who still work out at the cape.? I talked to one > yesterday, who is my age and lived right there the whole time, in the > 60s.? He has seen it all, and definitely agrees: seeing two liquid > boosters come down feet first and land next to each other is the > coolest thing he ever saw.? As a controls engineer, I can never get > enough of it. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat Seriously though, as an early-career controls engineer in aerospace, that landing was one of the things that got me enthused about what is happening in the field and what is yet to come! It is good stuff!. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 16:18:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:18:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com _______________________________________________ >...How I wish I could split myself into to identical copies. Then I could play together... spike Or perhaps it should it be: Then we could play with myself. spikes From sparge at gmail.com Wed May 27 16:30:27 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:30:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Anyone heard from Robin lately? He was in town a few yrs ago, we went to > dinner to celebrate Pete McCluskey's wedding. As I recall he was still > doing the professor biz at George Mason U. I don't have his current @, but > at one time it was rhanson at gmu.edu I think. > > Does anyone have a current @ for him? Please invite him to drop by just to > greet old friends. > > Robin, me lad, are ye there? We miss you buddy! > He's pretty active on Twitter, still at GMU. Recently he's been pretty focused on covid. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed May 27 16:32:33 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 12:32:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > From: spike at rainier66.com > > >...How I wish I could split myself into to identical copies. Then I could > play together... spike > > Or perhaps it should it be: Then we could play with myself. > Would sex with one's identical copy be masturbation? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 16:32:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:32:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 60% go for launch In-Reply-To: References: <005501d63429$a28a89a0$e79f9ce0$@rainier66.com> <00eb01d6343d$95f7c220$c1e74660$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014c01d63444$77efc0f0$67cf42d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Tristan Linck via extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >?Seriously though, as an early-career controls engineer in aerospace, that landing was one of the things that got me enthused about what is happening in the field and what is yet to come! It is good stuff!... Tristan Tristan, cool thanks. Do tell us something about Tristan please. I don?t recall seeing you here before. For those of us who have been in that biz since way back, the biggest changes we have see in the industry is all in the controls world. We saw the coming of composite materials, but the really biggie has been controls, particularly the advances in digital control systems. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 27 16:38:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 11:38:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If you use Twitter you can get him at: @robinhanson On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 11:27 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: spike at rainier66.com > > _______________________________________________ > > > >...How I wish I could split myself into to identical copies. Then I could > play together... spike > > > Or perhaps it should it be: Then we could play with myself. > > spikes > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 16:47:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:47:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016d01d63446$86659e50$9330daf0$@rainier66.com> Hi Dave, OK I heard back from Robin a few minutes ago. He is still at Mason. His subscription was still there but was disabled by bounces when we were having such trouble with our previous ISP which shall remain nameless forever and ever amen. I resubscribed him and unset his flag so when he gets around to it, we shall be in for a treat: Robin knows from stuff. He knows from a lotta stuff. A very interesting poster is he. For some reason, the ExI server isn?t carrying out orders. I don?t know what the heck is going on with it. I might need to contact our guru, John. That lad can fix anything. Computers just straighten up and fly right when they see him coming. John, I subscribed Robin but I don?t see any indication it worked. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 9:30 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Anyone heard from Robin lately? He was in town a few yrs ago, we went to dinner to celebrate Pete McCluskey's wedding. As I recall he was still doing the professor biz at George Mason U. I don't have his current @, but at one time it was rhanson at gmu.edu I think. Does anyone have a current @ for him? Please invite him to drop by just to greet old friends. Robin, me lad, are ye there? We miss you buddy! He's pretty active on Twitter, still at GMU. Recently he's been pretty focused on covid. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 16:50:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:50:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018401d63446$e77bbe90$b6733bb0$@rainier66.com> From: Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: spike at rainier66.com > >...How I wish I could split myself into to identical copies. Then I could play together... spike Or perhaps it should it be: Then we could play with myself. Would sex with one's identical copy be masturbation? -Dave Sure there is that. But what if? What if one is hetero (blush) and I could clone ourselves into the opposite gender? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAtz2rO-E_0 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed May 27 16:51:02 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 11:51:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <68225730-1316-d196-8f57-e1bb88777c6f@zaiboc.net> References: <68225730-1316-d196-8f57-e1bb88777c6f@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <498D4C8F-0D6D-4CA7-AF16-E3F3FD07E738@gmail.com> I answered the original question in the second email. In the first email I talked about what I wanted to talk about. SR Ballard > On May 27, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Ben via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On 27/05/2020 14:29, SR Ballard wrote: >> The amoeba question is just the Ship of Theseus. > In which case, all living beings are a Ship of Theseus. Which sounds right. Our bodies are constantly being renewed, molecules replaced. This thought experiment is just an extension of that. > >> It has whatever answer you would like it to have. The ?daughter? amoebas are simultaneously the same as the ?mother? amoeba without actually being the mother amoeba. >> >> If you were to copy yourself instantly with exactly duplicate memories, then you(a), as an agent would be unable to tell if it was you(a) or you(b) that was the mother-copy or the daughter-copy. Effectively, you(a) and you(b) are now just a normal set of twins. > My point is that the mother-copy only exists in the past. After the procedure, it's been transformed into two individuals. > >> >From now on, any question about copies can be answered using the logic of twins. >> >> If I (twin-a) am killed, do I continue to live on through them (twin-b)? No. > Agreed. > >> Assuming that the mother-copy is marked in some way > That's a different experiment. In mine, there is literally no way to tell. The molecules are randomly assigned to each version, so even isotopic labelling wouldn't work. Each version would have equal amounts of the label. > > >> ... > >> The only way we could consider twin-a and twin-b to be one ?you? (one coherent identity instead of twins) is if there was continuous bidirectional uploading. For example, you(a) and you(b) go about your daily experiences as normal. When you sleep your ?consciousness file? is synced. After sleeping you will have some form of ?shared? memory with your other self. That is the only way that ?you? could exist in two bodies: if you were able to, in some way, share consciousness between the two. > > Ah, now that's a different scenario. A very interesting one, but not what I'm talking about here. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Wed May 27 17:03:10 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 10:03:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:41 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Would sex with one's identical copy be masturbation? > Technically not, since by the time the sex happens, the copy would have become a divergent twin, no longer identical. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 17:06:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 10:06:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001801d63449$2a1674a0$7e435de0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? >?If you use Twitter you can get him at: @robinhanson Cool thanks BillW. I am outta luck there: I do not twitter and I am unlikely to take it up now. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 17:12:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 13:12:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *You're assuming there will always be buyers at good prices when they > [bonds] need to unwind.* > I'm assuming inflation won't be a serious problem in the immediate future, it's a reasonable assumption because bonds have never been more expensive or yields lower than they are right now, and there has never been a less appropriate time to worry about inflation than right now. In fact inflation hasn't been a serious problem in 40 years, but since that time there have been several recessions and at least one Great Recession; if we're lucky we're in another Great Recession right now, but if we insist on following ideological policies that have already been empirically proven not to work then we're at the start of something much much worse than just a Great Recession. *> The Fed is bound by the rules of its charter. THEY cannot create > government bonds. * > But the Fed can buy bonds and that increases the money supply by turning bonds into cash. > *> If you're talking about the US Treasury which you likely are based on > your response above, that's another story entirely. The distinction > however is important. [...] Brent's question was about the Fed printing > money and expanding THEIR balance sheet, at least that's the way it was > worded. I was pointing out the Fed does not print money to finance US > deficits. There is an important distinction there. * > But you never say why the distinction is important. I think the important thing is that the Fed can credit banks with deposits out of thin air which is equivalent to printing money, and they have not been shy about doing so when they judge it's wise. Of course that alone is not enough, you need the Federal Government to issue bonds and spend that newly created money on things like unemployment benefits and health care for 40 million Americans families. Unfortunately for that to work you need a POTUS who is not an imbecile and a legislature that is not full rigid ideologues and presentential flunkies. >> interest rates are currently low. Ridiculously low! The yield on a 2 >> year treasury bill is only 0.19%, the lowest in history. And the average 30 >> year fixed rate mortgage is 3.23%, also the lowest in history. The deficit >> hawks are like a doctor refusing to feed a 70 pound starving man because >> he's worried about the dangers of obesity. >> > > > *Demand is there until it isn't. * > And rich people's heads are connected to their shoulders until they aren't. > *Additionally, I'm surprised you continue to lament the death of > libertarians on this list in the age of Trump when you appear to be far > from one yourself. * > Unlike Trump supporters I'm still strongly in favor of Free Trade. I see nothing inherently evil in corporate monopolies especially high tech ones, but I do see something inherently evil in tariffs. I like bitcoin and encryption in general. I think women should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and everybody should have the right to end their life if they choose to. I think all drugs should be legal and gambling and prostitution too. And I think the POTUS should be prevented from sueing people who say things about him he doesn't like, and I think the election should not be declared invalid by the POTUS because of imagined voter fraud. Few MAGA Hatters are in favor of any of that. But however much I love libertarianism I love the scientific method even more, and some things just won't work. The Federal Government doing nothing about 40 million unemployed during a global pandemic won't work. Expecting the huge gap between the rich and the poor to continue to accelerate forever without bloody consequences won't work either. My core belief is that no matter how beautiful a theory is if it doesn't fit the facts then it must be abandoned. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed May 27 17:27:02 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 10:27:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <018401d63446$e77bbe90$b6733bb0$@rainier66.com> References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> <018401d63446$e77bbe90$b6733bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What if one is hetero (blush) and I could clone ourselves into the > opposite gender? > Would the clone be heterosexual, or still be into the same gender (and thus competing for the same sexual partners as you)? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed May 27 17:54:23 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 13:54:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:35 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:18 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> > *You're assuming there will always be buyers at good prices when they >> [bonds] need to unwind.* >> > > I'm assuming inflation won't be a serious problem in the immediate future, > it's a reasonable assumption because bonds have never been more expensive > or yields lower than they are right now, and there has never been a less > appropriate time to worry about inflation than right now. In fact inflation > hasn't been a serious problem in 40 years, but since that time there have > been several recessions and at least one Great Recession; if we're lucky > we're in another Great Recession right now, but if we insist on following > ideological policies that have already been empirically proven not to work > then we're at the start of something much much worse than just a Great > Recession. > They won't be unwinding the balance sheet when we are in a recession. The expectation is rates WILL be higher once the economy recovers;how much higher is an open question. We're getting into the Fed workings in this thread and I'm not sure if you actually have an interest in that side of things, as it's not the same thing as deficit spending. I'd just point out that unwinding the Fed's balance sheet when QE ends is tricky under the best of scenarios; even the Fed acknowledges that. > > > *> The Fed is bound by the rules of its charter. THEY cannot create >> government bonds. * >> > > But the Fed can buy bonds and that increases the money supply by > turning bonds into cash. > Yes, but my original point is when they go to unwind that balance sheet, they can't create more bonds than they have to sell, so they may be left holding the bag on some portion of it if bond values fall in the interim. For example, if they create $1000 in money supply by buying 10 bonds that are currently priced at 100, and bonds have fallen to 80 when they need to sell, they will be left with $200 on their balance sheet that they don't have an easy way of removing. My point is that the Fed can create as much money as they want, but removing it is not as straightforward if the prices of the bonds that they hold have fallen in the meantime. > > >> *> If you're talking about the US Treasury which you likely are based on >> your response above, that's another story entirely. The distinction >> however is important. [...] Brent's question was about the Fed printing >> money and expanding THEIR balance sheet, at least that's the way it was >> worded. I was pointing out the Fed does not print money to finance US >> deficits. There is an important distinction there. * >> > > But you never say why the distinction is important. I think the important > thing is that the Fed can credit banks with deposits out of thin air which > is equivalent to printing money, and they have not been shy about doing so > when they judge it's wise. Of course that alone is not enough, you need the > Federal Government to issue bonds and spend that newly created money on > things like unemployment benefits and health care for 40 million Americans > families. Unfortunately for that to work you need a POTUS who is not an > imbecile and a legislature that is not full rigid ideologues and > presentential flunkies. > The distinction is important because the Fed increasing the money supply is a completely separate operation from financing deficits. The Treasury will (has) auction bonds to cover the $2 trillion CV-19 stimulus. The Fed (outside of their own actions to add additional stimulus) has nothing to do with financing a deficit. My point is that the Fed could have done no QE (not giving an opinion on whether that was the right call) / money supply expansion, and the Treasury could still provide stimulus by auctioning bonds to cover the shortfall. It may or may not be of interest to you, but factually, it's important to understand the difference between the two. Money supply does not have to increase to fund a deficit created by the CARES stimulus. I'm not arguing with you here, just pointing out how the two are related and separate. > > > >> interest rates are currently low. Ridiculously low! The yield on a 2 >>> year treasury bill is only 0.19%, the lowest in history. And the average 30 >>> year fixed rate mortgage is 3.23%, also the lowest in history. The deficit >>> hawks are like a doctor refusing to feed a 70 pound starving man because >>> he's worried about the dangers of obesity. >>> >> >> > *Demand is there until it isn't. * >> > > And rich people's heads are connected to their shoulders until they > aren't. > > > *Additionally, I'm surprised you continue to lament the death of >> libertarians on this list in the age of Trump when you appear to be far >> from one yourself. * >> > > Unlike Trump supporters I'm still strongly in favor of Free Trade. I see > nothing inherently evil in corporate monopolies especially high tech ones, > but I do see something inherently evil in tariffs. I like bitcoin and > encryption in general. I think women should have the right to do what they > want with their bodies and everybody should have the right to end their > life if they choose to. I think all drugs should be legal and gambling and > prostitution too. > In the interest of pointing out where our beliefs do and do not intersect, I see nothing evil in tariffs whatsoever, and am fully in favor of free trade INTRA-nation state. I am no longer in favor of unrestrained trade amongst nation states, especially when others don't play by the rules. That said, I am a fan of cryptocurrencies and a huge supporter of strong encryption. I also think women should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies, along with everyone else including ending their own. I also think all drugs, gambling, and prostitution should be legal. See, besides an interest in transhumanism, telescopes, and traversing the universe, we actually do have some other things in common! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 27 17:58:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 10:58:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> <018401d63446$e77bbe90$b6733bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004001d63450$680d79f0$38286dd0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:27 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: What if one is hetero (blush) and I could clone ourselves into the opposite gender? >?Would the clone be heterosexual, or still be into the same gender (and thus competing for the same sexual partners as you)? Oy vey, you?re right, I hadn?t thought of that angle: if my clone has the same mind as the original me but we figured out how to switch the Y to an X, then she would be attracted to females, as I am, so she would be homosexual. I would want to play with her, but she wouldn?t want me: she would feel like a man who is misconfigured, more interested in playing with herself. Hey, when you think about it, that might be kinda cool too: no expense, no bother, just gaze into the mirror, get going, done. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 27 18:17:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 13:17:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <004001d63450$680d79f0$38286dd0$@rainier66.com> References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> <018401d63446$e77bbe90$b6733bb0$@rainier66.com> <004001d63450$680d79f0$38286dd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hey, when you think about it, that might be kinda cool too: no expense, no bother, just gaze into the mirror, get going, done. spike *I always got some good laughs when I taught Human Sexuality and discussed masturbation. As you said: you are a cheap date; cannot get a disease you don't already have;, aren't going to get turned down; know exactly what you like; (although I would certainly want more time than 'get going, done'). (mirrors? are you a mirror on the ceiling guy? )* *It would not make you homosexual, except in a sense. Maybe we need a new term: isosexual* *I also taught speech: I was a masterdebater. * *bill w* On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2020 10:27 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Adrian Tymes > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? > > > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > What if one is hetero (blush) and I could clone ourselves into the > opposite gender? > > > > >?Would the clone be heterosexual, or still be into the same gender (and > thus competing for the same sexual partners as you)? > > > > > > Oy vey, you?re right, I hadn?t thought of that angle: if my clone has the > same mind as the original me but we figured out how to switch the Y to an > X, then she would be attracted to females, as I am, so she would be > homosexual. I would want to play with her, but she wouldn?t want me: she > would feel like a man who is misconfigured, more interested in playing with > herself. Hey, when you think about it, that might be kinda cool too: no > expense, no bother, just gaze into the mirror, get going, done. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 27 18:30:37 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:30:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27/05/2020 17:33, Keith Henson wrote: > This subject was beaten to death long ago. The subject won't be beaten to death until there are no people who think "A copy of you can't possibly be you, because, you know 'copy'. Duh". -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 27 18:37:26 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:37:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27/05/2020 17:33, SR Ballard wrote: > If the mother-copy is destroyed and two daughter-copies are created This is the kind of thinking I'm trying to get away from. In what sense is the mother-copy destroyed? All of it's original molecules are still there (albeit randomly distributed between the two daughter-bodies), all of the information is preserved (x2, now), so where is the destruction? I see none at all. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Wed May 27 18:40:42 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:40:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27/05/2020 17:33, bill w wrote: > we are pretending that a perfect copy can be made, and that is wrong > too.? So we are dealing hypothetically just for fun. It's a thought-experiment, of an idealised situation. Hypothetical, yes, but not just for fun. There's a serious purpose to it. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed May 27 19:14:30 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:14:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Then there are no copies. SR Ballard > On May 27, 2020, at 1:37 PM, Ben via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On 27/05/2020 17:33, SR Ballard wrote: >> If the mother-copy is destroyed and two daughter-copies are created > > This is the kind of thinking I'm trying to get away from. > > In what sense is the mother-copy destroyed? All of it's original molecules are still there (albeit randomly distributed between the two daughter-bodies), all of the information is preserved (x2, now), so where is the destruction? I see none at all. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 27 19:24:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:24:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, answer me this: can any machine of any kind, computer or not. make a perfect copy of anything? Perfect down to the atomic level. bill w On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:49 PM Ben via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 27/05/2020 17:33, bill w wrote: > > we are pretending that a perfect copy can be made, and that is wrong too. > So we are dealing hypothetically just for fun. > > > It's a thought-experiment, of an idealised situation. Hypothetical, yes, > but not just for fun. There's a serious purpose to it. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed May 27 19:34:25 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 14:34:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <759A278E-5BA0-45AE-A9E3-CEB81614512B@gmail.com> Define ?anything?. Any physical thing? Not yet. A bit of code? I?d like to hope so. SR Ballard > On May 27, 2020, at 2:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Well, answer me this: can any machine of any kind, computer or not. make a perfect copy of anything? Perfect down to the atomic level. bill w > >> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:49 PM Ben via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On 27/05/2020 17:33, bill w wrote: >>> we are pretending that a perfect copy can be made, and that is wrong too. So we are dealing hypothetically just for fun. >> >> It's a thought-experiment, of an idealised situation. Hypothetical, yes, but not just for fun. There's a serious purpose to it. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 27 21:10:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 16:10:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: <759A278E-5BA0-45AE-A9E3-CEB81614512B@gmail.com> References: <759A278E-5BA0-45AE-A9E3-CEB81614512B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was thinking mainly of genes. I wonder if computers hiccup. There is a thing that happens in our brains called 'involuntary rest pauses'. You can test yourself: just tap a finger on some surface and keep it up. Sooner or later you will lose the rhythm and miss a tap. Extroverts miss more than introverts. So if computers have IRPs (Could there be small changes in electricity that accounts for errors?) , then a copied code will be short of perfect. Does this happen this way? Given enough length of the program I am guessing that errors will happen. Then you have a bug, I suppose, which you have to fix. bill w On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 2:36 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Define ?anything?. Any physical thing? Not yet. A bit of code? I?d like to > hope so. > > SR Ballard > > On May 27, 2020, at 2:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Well, answer me this: can any machine of any kind, computer or not. make > a perfect copy of anything? Perfect down to the atomic level. bill w > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:49 PM Ben via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 27/05/2020 17:33, bill w wrote: >> >> we are pretending that a perfect copy can be made, and that is wrong >> too. So we are dealing hypothetically just for fun. >> >> >> It's a thought-experiment, of an idealised situation. Hypothetical, yes, >> but not just for fun. There's a serious purpose to it. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed May 27 21:54:39 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 07:54:39 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 05:26, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, answer me this: can any machine of any kind, computer or not. make > a perfect copy of anything? Perfect down to the atomic level. bill w > Not a perfect copy, but a good enough copy. A photocopier, for example, makes good enough copies of documents. On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:49 PM Ben via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 27/05/2020 17:33, bill w wrote: >> >> we are pretending that a perfect copy can be made, and that is wrong >> too. So we are dealing hypothetically just for fun. >> >> >> It's a thought-experiment, of an idealised situation. Hypothetical, yes, >> but not just for fun. There's a serious purpose to it. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:08:57 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:08:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? Message-ID: wrote: > How I wish I could split myself into to identical copies. Then I could play together. Which one gets to sleep with the wife? Both? Are you willing to give up half your net worth? Or more depending on which copy gets to the bank first. > Regarding beating a subject to death, it has been such a pleasure to see some favorite old topics get beaten back to life. By comparison with the old days, poorly. > With regard to subjects we discussed at length in the 1990s, what is the really big difference between then and now? What makes it worthwhile to listen to how the younger generation deals with the same questions we did a long time ago, with new players, such as Regina and Bill and the other new kids on the block. They bring new perspective, even if they end up in the same channels we wore into the path. > So what is different now? > My answer: the biggest difference is in how much online material is available free for anyone to get up to speed quickly on anything. There is 100 times more reference material and 100 times better online resources now compared to the early 90s. I post pointers to back up what I say sometimes, but I don't see other posters doing that often. Also, I see a lot of ignorance that indicates the poster didn't look at the search engines. Some I skip because they are too painful to read. I really need to do something with the early Extropian postings so I can just point to them and not have to write about some well-worn topic. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:16:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:16:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:57 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *my original point is when they go to unwind that balance sheet, they > can't create more bonds than they have to sell, so they may be left holding > the bag on some portion of it if bond values fall in the interim. * > First of all I think it's going to be a long time before the Fed even wants to unwind its balance sheet and we have plenty of things to worry about before then. And besides, selling bonds is not the only tool they have, they can also reduce their balance sheet by just stop reinvesting in maturing government securities. >> Unlike Trump supporters I'm still strongly in favor of Free Trade. I see >> nothing inherently evil in corporate monopolies especially high tech ones, >> but I do see something inherently evil in tariffs. I like bitcoin and >> encryption in general. I think women should have the right to do what they >> want with their bodies and everybody should have the right to end their >> life if they choose to. I think all drugs should be legal and gambling and >> prostitution too. >> > > *> In the interest of pointing out where our beliefs do and do not > intersect, I see nothing evil in tariffs whatsoever, and am fully in favor > of free trade INTRA-nation state. I am no longer in favor of unrestrained > trade amongst nation states,* > How times have changed. When I first joined the list Free Trade was a core belief that virtually defined what a libertarian was, at least for economic issues as opposed to social questions. In fact most libertarians, including me, weren't even in favor of nation states existing much less wanted economic warfare between them. I'm no longer quite that radical, I still think if we were starting from scratch we could do better by organizing things along pure free market principles, but I have come to realize as a practical matter it's far too late to go down that path now, and we'll never get rid of nation states before the technological singularity. The mere existence of the Fed means we've already accepted that we've strayed from the pure Free Market, so I can't get all hot and bothered when they try to do something to help during a simultaneous biological and economic catastrophe. *> That said, I am a fan of cryptocurrencies and a huge supporter of strong > encryption. I also think women should be able to do whatever they want > with their own bodies, along with everyone else including ending their own. > I also think all drugs, gambling, and prostitution should be legal. See, > besides an interest in transhumanism, telescopes, and traversing the > universe, we actually do have some other things in common!* > Yeah but other than that.... John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:25:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:25:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 6:12 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Are you willing to give up half your net worth?* Money is not going to be an issue. If we have duplicating machines good enough to duplicate me then it can duplicate other things too, so I just take my half of the assets and run them through the machine. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:35:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 17:35:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: * I also think all drugs, gambling, and prostitution should be legal. Dylan* *I used to think exactly the same thing with regards to drugs. I still think it about gambling and prostitution. But over the years I have come to realize that total access to drugs - antibiotics, for example, which would ruin their effectiveness asap - is not a good idea for everyone and maybe not for anyone. I hope I don't lose my libertarian standing here, but people are just too weak. These are powerful drugs, like Fentanyl. You would not destroy society but you would have drug 'prisons' (treatment centers) far larger than the ones for criminals. I dealt with my own problems but most simply cannot, it seems. Our laws now protect everyone. People, many, many, I don't know how many, need to be protected from themselves. If I were a real hardnose I could just say "If they want to kill themselves that is none of my business." But it is. It takes big tax dollars to deal with addiction and it would increase by more than one order of magnitude with total access. And there would be tremendous side effects. What would happen to the families, mates and children of the addicted? More tax dollars for sure. I would legalize pot but that's about all I can think of right now. bill w* On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 5:19 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 1:57 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> > *my original point is when they go to unwind that balance sheet, they >> can't create more bonds than they have to sell, so they may be left holding >> the bag on some portion of it if bond values fall in the interim. * >> > > First of all I think it's going to be a long time before the Fed even > wants to unwind its balance sheet and we have plenty of things to worry > about before then. And besides, selling bonds is not the only tool they > have, they can also reduce their balance sheet by just stop reinvesting in > maturing government securities. > > >> Unlike Trump supporters I'm still strongly in favor of Free Trade. I >>> see nothing inherently evil in corporate monopolies especially high tech >>> ones, but I do see something inherently evil in tariffs. I like bitcoin and >>> encryption in general. I think women should have the right to do what they >>> want with their bodies and everybody should have the right to end their >>> life if they choose to. I think all drugs should be legal and gambling and >>> prostitution too. >>> >> >> > *> In the interest of pointing out where our beliefs do and do not >> intersect, I see nothing evil in tariffs whatsoever, and am fully in favor >> of free trade INTRA-nation state. I am no longer in favor of unrestrained >> trade amongst nation states,* >> > > How times have changed. When I first joined the list Free Trade was a core > belief that virtually defined what a libertarian was, at least for economic > issues as opposed to social questions. In fact most libertarians, including > me, weren't even in favor of nation states existing much less wanted > economic warfare between them. I'm no longer quite that radical, I still > think if we were starting from scratch we could do better by organizing > things along pure free market principles, but I have come to realize as a > practical matter it's far too late to go down that path now, and we'll > never get rid of nation states before the technological singularity. The > mere existence of the Fed means we've already accepted that we've strayed > from the pure Free Market, so I can't get all hot and bothered when they > try to do something to help during a simultaneous biological and economic > catastrophe. > > *> That said, I am a fan of cryptocurrencies and a huge supporter of >> strong encryption. I also think women should be able to do whatever they >> want with their own bodies, along with everyone else including ending their >> own. I also think all drugs, gambling, and prostitution should be legal. >> See, besides an interest in transhumanism, telescopes, and traversing the >> universe, we actually do have some other things in common!* >> > > Yeah but other than that.... > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:35:27 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:35:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <011601d63441$57612070$06236150$@rainier66.com> <012001d63442$680a7510$381f5f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:42 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Would sex with one's identical copy be masturbation? > Or would it be having sex with somebody you loved? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:40:47 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:40:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, answer me this: can any machine of any kind, computer or not. make > a perfect copy of anything? Perfect down to the atomic level. bill w > Not yet, but not because of some deep profound reason, we can't do it now because our fingers are just too big. However smaller fingers do not violate any law of physics. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:48:15 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:48:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:28 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Money is not going to be an issue. If we have duplicating machines good > enough to duplicate me then it can duplicate other things too, so I just > take my half of the assets and run them through the machine. > Presumably your non-cash assets. Even with just the laws we have today, duplicating currency would be illegal if you're not the government. Also your non-digital assets. Duplicating your own molecules doesn't directly do anything to the data servers of a bank located far away from you (and which they would object with much force to your attempts to duplicate). But then, some time on the commodities market might be the answer. Buy a bunch of bulk goods - with a world supply so large that your personal addition to the inventory won't measurably change the price - then duplicate several times and sell the results. Works better with non-perishable goods: gold and platinum, not pork and grain. You could probably do this with earlier generation tech than copying a person. (If it's just shuffling molecules, not replicating elements so you can't do gold and platinum, then perhaps do oil. Ramp it up to industrial production, so you can affect world prices, and you can crash the price of oil, robbing the petrostates of their influence on world politics.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:49:00 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:49:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 6:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I used to think exactly the same thing with regards to drugs. I still > think it about gambling and prostitution. But over the years I have come > to realize that total access to drugs - antibiotics, for example, which > would ruin their effectiveness * > I must admit that is a good point. *> I dealt with my own problems but most simply cannot, it seems. Our laws > now protect everyone. * > Then why do drug addicts still exist? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed May 27 23:03:37 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:03:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020, 6:28 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Money is not going to be an issue. If we have duplicating machines good > enough to duplicate me then it can duplicate other things too, so I just > take my half of the assets and run them through the machine. > For those who believe head-in-a-dewar is enough, we needn't perfectish clone a body at whatever cost - the technology to arrange is surely capable of re-arrange for cheaper. There are plenty of redundant clones on the refurb market. If you are still you after losing a limb (or 4) then you are still you in a robot or a repurposed cow. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 27 23:33:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 18:33:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > * I dealt with my own problems but most simply cannot, it seems. Our laws > now protect everyone. * > Then why do drug addicts still exist? John K Clark That, to me, is an astounding question. Have you ever had an opiate high? Or any other kind? If so, you must be able to see that some people,like me and alcohol, cannot moderate it, and so the physiology changes and you need it to function properly - no so much so in the case of alcohol. bill w On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 6:10 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 6:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I used to think exactly the same thing with regards to drugs. I still >> think it about gambling and prostitution. But over the years I have come >> to realize that total access to drugs - antibiotics, for example, which >> would ruin their effectiveness * >> > > I must admit that is a good point. > > *> I dealt with my own problems but most simply cannot, it seems. Our >> laws now protect everyone. * >> > > Then why do drug addicts still exist? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu May 28 06:16:00 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:16:00 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "They would be two versions of the same person each with equal claim to being the original.... This is the conclusion reached in the early 90s on this list.... This subject was beaten to death long ago." This is still my conclusion, and yes this thing was beaten to death long ago. Not solved - there are those who disagree, and nothing will change their mind. But I tend to stay away from discussions of is-a-copy-really-you? and all that. Time and sci/tech will eventually tell. On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 5:39 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Wed, 27 May 2020 at 05:37, Ben via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> OK, I've still not heard anything from anyone who subscribes to the 'a > >> copy of you is not you' school of thought, about my 'amoeba' question, > >> Any takers? > > > >> To reiterate the question: > > > >> If an entire person could be replicated in a similar way to how an > > amoeba reproduces (every organelle in every cell is reproduced and > > randomly assigned to one of two daughter cells, which then separate, > > maintaining all the relationships with all the other cells in the > > relevant daughter organism) how would you regard the two resultant people? > > > > Would they be two completely new people, unrelated to the original (who > > could now be regarded as dead), would they be two versions of the same > > person, each with an equally valid claim to be 'the original' (just as I > > can claim to be the 'original me' of 10 minutes ago), or would they be > > something else I've not thought about? > > > >> Or is this thought experiment somehow flawed, and not relevant to the > > question? > > > .> Any opinions? > > > > They would be two versions of the same person each with equal claim to > being the original. > > This is the conclusion reached in the early 90s on this list. > > There are still arguments as to when duplication of people should > happen. I have argued that it should only be in cases such as crew > members for starships where you can't find enough people to fill them. > > Robin Hanson thinks duplicated people will fill the labor market and > drive the value of labor to zero. If the legal rule is to split a > person's wealth with copies, then if the equipment was inexpensive, > you could make beggers of the richest people by running off vast > numbers of copies. Perhaps there will be a market for copy insurance. > > In "the Clinic Seed" I expanded this slightly by allowing one active > copy in either the physical state or uploaded but not both at the same > time. To muddy the waters, I allowed conscious to be continuous over > the upload/download process and memory to be passively updated in the > inactive physical state body. (Given nanotech, this is not hard.) > > This subject was beaten to death long ago. > > Best wishes, > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stathisp at gmail.com Thu May 28 06:52:38 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 16:52:38 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 16:18, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "They would be two versions of the same person each with equal claim > to being the original.... This is the conclusion reached in the early > 90s on this list.... This subject was beaten to death long ago." > > This is still my conclusion, and yes this thing was beaten to death > long ago. Not solved - there are those who disagree, and nothing will > change their mind. But I tend to stay away from discussions of > is-a-copy-really-you? and all that. Time and sci/tech will eventually > tell. > Time and sci/tech will not tell, because there is no possible evidence that will convince those who disagree. However, what would happen over time if duplication became commonplace is that those who do not believe a copy is really them would end up a disadvantaged minority and the belief would eventually die out. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu May 28 06:58:58 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:58:58 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Imagine that Star Trek -like teleportation is discovered: A technology able to make you disappear from here and appear there. I guess initially there would be those who insist that the teleported version of you is not you but "only a copy." But then, if everyone starts using teleporters all the time, the objections would just die out. On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 8:54 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 16:18, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> "They would be two versions of the same person each with equal claim >> to being the original.... This is the conclusion reached in the early >> 90s on this list.... This subject was beaten to death long ago." >> >> This is still my conclusion, and yes this thing was beaten to death >> long ago. Not solved - there are those who disagree, and nothing will >> change their mind. But I tend to stay away from discussions of >> is-a-copy-really-you? and all that. Time and sci/tech will eventually >> tell. > > > Time and sci/tech will not tell, because there is no possible evidence that will convince those who disagree. However, what would happen over time if duplication became commonplace is that those who do not believe a copy is really them would end up a disadvantaged minority and the belief would eventually die out. > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at zaiboc.net Thu May 28 07:17:47 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:17:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27/05/2020 23:48, SR Ballard wrote: > Then there are no copies. > > SR Ballard > >> On May 27, 2020, at 1:37 PM, Ben via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> On 27/05/2020 17:33, SR Ballard wrote: >>> If the mother-copy is destroyed and two daughter-copies are created >> This is the kind of thinking I'm trying to get away from. >> >> In what sense is the mother-copy destroyed? All of it's original molecules are still there (albeit randomly distributed between the two daughter-bodies), all of the information is preserved (x2, now), so where is the destruction? I see none at all. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc No copies? OK, I'm fine with that, but there are two somethings when before there was one. What do we call them? And how do we regard them? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu May 28 07:57:10 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:57:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67d77438-e918-1506-9516-ca81359ef406@zaiboc.net> On 27/05/2020 23:48, bill w wrote: > Well, answer me this:? can any machine of any kind, computer or not. > make a perfect copy of anything?? ?Perfect down to the atomic level. Well, apart from getting into definitions, for my scenario an atom-level perfect copy probably isn't needed, just normal biological processes that go on all the time, plus some way of making a human body do what an amoeba does when it splits into two (and yes, that's the hand-wavey bit that all thought experiments must have, otherwise they'd be real experiments). The crucial part of this idea is that it's not the usual make-a-copy-leaving-all-the-original-parts-as-they-were, it's a multicellular version of what happens normally in many single-celled organisms like the amoeba. It feeds, builds up enough stores of the right kind of molecules, then each structure in the cell replicates so there are two identical-enough-for-biology versions, which then move randomly to one side or another of the cell, which then divides down the middle. Each resultant daughter cell is composed of a mixture of the original mother cell's parts and the newly replicated parts. It's as though we had a sentence, duplicated each letter, then randomly swapped half of the letters with their twin, forming two new, identical sentences. This is a sentence. This is a sentence. There, I just did it. Let's say I swapped the positions of every second character (so the h, s, i, etc., on each row comes from the other row). Now, which is the original sentence, and which the copy? The question doesn't make sense, does it? Now, here is another sentence where I've just deleted then retyped every second character: This is a sentence. This is just like the normal process that goes on in biological tissue all the time. Right now, billions of individual proteins in my body are being broken down and replaced with identical proteins. This has no consequences whatsoever for my identity, as long as the fidelity of the process is reasonably high (because enough malformed proteins would disrupt the functioning of my cells). The only difference between this and the scenario above, is that above, there are two sentences at the end of the process. So if that was a person, instead of a sentence, or an amoeba, what consequences would it have for their identity? -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 28 12:06:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:06:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * >>> Our laws now protect everyone. * >> >>> >>Then why do drug addicts still exist? John K Clark >> > *> That, to me, is an astounding question.* > Those are the best sort. *> Have you ever had an opiate high?* > No. > *Or any other kind? * > I don't take happy pills, and I've never even had a marijuana high. I have taken a few drinks in my life but I found that all it did was make me stupid (some would say it just made me stupider) so I cut that out. *> If so, you must be able to see that some people,like me and alcohol, > cannot moderate it,* > My question was if laws against opiate use protect people from opiate addiction then why do we still have opiate addicts. The war on drugs doesn't seem to be going very well, I think it's time to call for an armistice. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 28 13:12:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:12:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: My question was if laws against opiate use protect people from opiate addiction then why do we still have opiate addicts. The war on drugs doesn't seem to be going very well, I think it's time to call for an armistice. John K Clark Maybe I misunderstood. I am in favor of eliminating all laws against pot, but opiates are a different story, as are many prescription drugs. bill w On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 7:09 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > * >>> Our laws now protect everyone. * >>> >>>> >>Then why do drug addicts still exist? John K Clark >>> >> > > *> That, to me, is an astounding question.* >> > > Those are the best sort. > > *> Have you ever had an opiate high?* >> > > No. > > > *Or any other kind? * >> > > I don't take happy pills, and I've never even had a marijuana high. I > have taken a few drinks in my life but I found that all it did was make me > stupid (some would say it just made me stupider) so I cut that out. > > *> If so, you must be able to see that some people,like me and alcohol, >> cannot moderate it,* >> > > My question was if laws against opiate use protect people from opiate > addiction then why do we still have opiate addicts. The war on drugs > doesn't seem to be going very well, I think it's time to call for an > armistice. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 28 13:15:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:15:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] good eco news Message-ID: https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/worlds-largest-hydrogen-plant-to-launch-in-california/?utm_campaign=newsletters&utm_medium=weekly_mailout&utm_source=28-05-2020 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 28 13:47:04 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 09:47:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 6:58 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Money is not going to be an issue. If we have duplicating machines good >> enough to duplicate me then it can duplicate other things too, so I just >> take my half of the assets and run them through the machine. >> > > *> Presumably your non-cash assets. * > If I can assemble a luxury yacht from old junk cars or even from ore still in the ground then if I want a yacht I don't need cash to get one. > *> Even with just the laws we have today, duplicating currency would be > illegal if you're not the government.* > You're presuming that after the singularity there will still be currency and laws and government, but the only thing I know for sure about it is matter duplicating machines will exist, everything else is unknown, that's why it's called a Singularity. > *> Works better with non-perishable goods: gold and platinum, not pork* > Actually it would work better with pork, Nanotechnology can pretty efficiently extract rare elements from the ground but it can't directly make them, however carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen are very common and if a machine can duplicate me it can duplicate a pig too. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu May 28 14:43:55 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 00:43:55 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 23:14, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My question was if laws against opiate use protect people from opiate > addiction then why do we still have opiate addicts. The war on drugs > doesn't seem to be going very well, I think it's time to call for an > armistice. > > John K Clark > > Maybe I misunderstood. I am in favor of eliminating all laws against pot, > but opiates are a different story, as are many prescription drugs. bill w > What about alcohol? It is probably at least as addictive and dangerous as some illicit and prescription drugs. Should it be banned again? On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 7:09 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> * >>> Our laws now protect everyone. * >>>> >>>>> >>Then why do drug addicts still exist? John K Clark >>>> >>> >> >> *> That, to me, is an astounding question.* >>> >> >> Those are the best sort. >> >> *> Have you ever had an opiate high?* >>> >> >> No. >> >> > *Or any other kind? * >>> >> >> I don't take happy pills, and I've never even had a marijuana high. I >> have taken a few drinks in my life but I found that all it did was make me >> stupid (some would say it just made me stupider) so I cut that out. >> >> *> If so, you must be able to see that some people,like me and alcohol, >>> cannot moderate it,* >>> >> >> My question was if laws against opiate use protect people from opiate >> addiction then why do we still have opiate addicts. The war on drugs >> doesn't seem to be going very well, I think it's time to call for an >> armistice. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 28 14:49:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 07:49:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] red shirt humor again, was: RE: Is a copy of you really you? Message-ID: <007401d634ff$21641400$642c3c00$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? >...Imagine that Star Trek -like teleportation is discovered: A technology able to make you disappear from here and appear there. I guess initially there would be those who insist that the teleported version of you is not you but "only a copy." But then, if everyone starts using teleporters all the time, the objections would just die out... Ja. The Star Trek teleporter notion creates all manner of paradoxes. Since the person is teleported at the speed of light, they are information at some point. The original is read destructively, so a lot of carbon atoms are removed somehow and something else is reassembled at the destination, presumably from indigenous materials. Paradoxes abound: if a Star Trek red shirt teleports to a place with insufficient anything to assemble a copy, well, OK the red shirt is dead Jim, we can get on with the story. They always hafta kill a red shirt when they go to do anything dangerous on Star Trek. If the teleporter is a yellow shirt (so we know he will survive) and they are information (so they can travel at the speed of light) then we could make arbitrarily many copies at multiple destinations. You know some joker will eventually try to do that, probably Scotty, who already knows he can duplicate red shirts down there and get away with it, since they will get killed anyway. spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 28 15:12:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 08:12:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] good eco news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008c01d63502$6a384e50$3ea8eaf0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] good eco news https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/worlds-largest-hydrogen-plant-to-launch-in-california/?utm_campaign=newsletters &utm_medium=weekly_mailout&utm_source=28-05-2020 bill w Hi BillW, this looks cool but the article contains self-contradictions. They don?t explain what is the power source or what is the level of carbon dioxide production, any of it. Until we see the energy balance sheet, it looks like a scam designed to attract government subsidies. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu May 28 15:18:47 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 11:18:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1DFB4350-9AA8-4095-8BDA-F7BA3C6D67C5@alumni.virginia.edu> Prohibition has never worked. For any substance. Period. We should never revert back to it. And in many (most?) cases, the laws against mind altering substances have ruined more lives than the substances themselves ever could. > On May 28, 2020, at 10:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > >> On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 23:14, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> My question was if laws against opiate use protect people from opiate addiction then why do we still have opiate addicts. The war on drugs doesn't seem to be going very well, I think it's time to call for an armistice. >> >> John K Clark >> >> Maybe I misunderstood. I am in favor of eliminating all laws against pot, but opiates are a different story, as are many prescription drugs. bill w > > What about alcohol? It is probably at least as addictive and dangerous as some illicit and prescription drugs. Should it be banned again? > >>> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 7:09 AM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> Our laws now protect everyone. >>>>> >>Then why do drug addicts still exist? John K Clark >>>> >>>> > That, to me, is an astounding question. >>> >>> Those are the best sort. >>> >>>> > Have you ever had an opiate high? >>> >>> No. >>> >>>> > Or any other kind? >>> >>> I don't take happy pills, and I've never even had a marijuana high. I have taken a few drinks in my life but I found that all it did was make me stupid (some would say it just made me stupider) so I cut that out. >>> >>>> > If so, you must be able to see that some people,like me and alcohol, cannot moderate it, >>> >>> My question was if laws against opiate use protect people from opiate addiction then why do we still have opiate addicts. The war on drugs doesn't seem to be going very well, I think it's time to call for an armistice. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 28 15:22:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 10:22:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John, I want to hear from you when you are in such pain as to need an opiate. Your liver has no defense against and you will get high. A medical resident, who had never even had a beer, got his first access to opiates at the hospital. So he decided to see what it was like. His response "This is the way people should feel all the time. Just wonderful." So he got hooked, lost his medical career, etc. This is not uncommon. I hope that someday there will be a genetic test to see who is going to get addicted to alcohol, opiates, or what not. This at least will give some warning. I got a warning: I drank bourbon and got angry - every time. Switched to vodka - no trouble. I was allergic to bourbon whisky. How many thousands of lives have been lost in bars when a person allergic like me got into knife fights, or went home and got a gun, and went after someone at the bar who had dissed him. This happens every single day of this world. I wish we had a test to show the person that his anger is an allergy, not a natural reaction. He drinks and gets angry at just nothing and someone dies for it, often him. It would be fairly challenging, I think to make your own opiates. But not so with alcohol. There is just no way to keep a determined person from making their own, from baker's yeast and dandelions if necessary. It would truly be awful and alcoholic. I have known people who strained white shoe polish through a loaf of bread and drank the alcohol that came out. The next time I checked on him (a black working with me at the railroad station) he was dead. Of course he could have died in a knife fight which he was always telling me about. bill w On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:46 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 23:14, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> My question was if laws against opiate use protect people from opiate >> addiction then why do we still have opiate addicts. The war on drugs >> doesn't seem to be going very well, I think it's time to call for an >> armistice. >> >> John K Clark >> >> Maybe I misunderstood. I am in favor of eliminating all laws against >> pot, but opiates are a different story, as are many prescription drugs. >> bill w >> > > What about alcohol? It is probably at least as addictive and dangerous as > some illicit and prescription drugs. Should it be banned again? > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 7:09 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> * >>> Our laws now protect everyone. * >>>>> >>>>>> >>Then why do drug addicts still exist? John K Clark >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> *> That, to me, is an astounding question.* >>>> >>> >>> Those are the best sort. >>> >>> *> Have you ever had an opiate high?* >>>> >>> >>> No. >>> >>> > *Or any other kind? * >>>> >>> >>> I don't take happy pills, and I've never even had a marijuana high. I >>> have taken a few drinks in my life but I found that all it did was make me >>> stupid (some would say it just made me stupider) so I cut that out. >>> >>> *> If so, you must be able to see that some people,like me and alcohol, >>>> cannot moderate it,* >>>> >>> >>> My question was if laws against opiate use protect people from opiate >>> addiction then why do we still have opiate addicts. The war on drugs >>> doesn't seem to be going very well, I think it's time to call for an >>> armistice. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 28 15:37:10 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 11:37:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <759A278E-5BA0-45AE-A9E3-CEB81614512B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 5:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I was thinking mainly of genes. > > I wonder if computers hiccup. There is a thing that happens in our brains > called 'involuntary rest pauses'. You can test yourself: just tap a > finger on some surface and keep it up. Sooner or later you will lose the > rhythm and miss a tap. Extroverts miss more than introverts. > > So if computers have IRPs (Could there be small changes in electricity > that accounts for errors?) > , then a copied code will be short of perfect. Does this happen this way? > Given enough length of the program I am guessing that errors will happen. > Then you have a bug, I suppose, which you have to fix. > Computers can have all kinds of glitches: hardware problems, software problems, power problems, etc. Almost all have at least parity memory, meaning that errors will be detected. Most servers have error-correcting memory, which means that most errors will be automatically fixed. At any rate, it's trivial to compare the original and the copy to detect any mistakes. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 28 15:43:02 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 11:43:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 6:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I used to think exactly the same thing with regards to drugs. I still > think it about gambling and prostitution. But over the years I have come > to realize that total access to drugs - antibiotics, for example, which > would ruin their effectiveness asap - is not a good idea for everyone and > maybe not for anyone. I hope I don't lose my libertarian standing here, > but people are just too weak. > Libertarian standing: revoked. > These are powerful drugs, like Fentanyl. You would not destroy society > but you would have drug 'prisons' (treatment centers) far larger than the > ones for criminals. I dealt with my own problems but most simply cannot, > it seems. Our laws now protect everyone. > Bullshit. They ruin lives and create a black market that kills more people than the drugs would. > People, many, many, I don't know how many, need to be protected from > themselves. > No. People need to be treated like adults, not nannied. > If I were a real hardnose I could just say "If they want to kill > themselves that is none of my business." But it is. It takes big tax > dollars to deal with addiction and it would increase by more than one order > of magnitude with total access. > We spend a fortune on drug prohibition. If we spent half that on treatment we'd be way ahead of the game. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 28 15:44:55 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 11:44:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 11:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John, I want to hear from you when you are in such pain as to need an > opiate. Your liver has no defense against and you will get high. A > medical resident, who had never even had a beer, got his first access to > opiates at the hospital. So he decided to see what it was like. His > response "This is the way people should feel all the time. Just > wonderful." So he got hooked, lost his medical career, etc. > Why should an addiction result in losing one's career? I can see sidelining it until it's under control. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 28 16:05:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 12:05:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 11:27 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: John, I want to hear from you when you are in such pain as to need an > opiate. > I don't like pain so if I ever get into such a condition I would not hesitate to take opiates and take them up to and if necessary past the lethal level, but until then I prefer to live and to keep my mind as clear as I can. It would be fairly challenging, I think to make your own opiates. > Pablo Escobar managed to make quite a lot of them, and opiates are not the only class of addictive drugs and some of them don't need exotic plants grown in distant lands, Haven't you ever seen "Breaking Bad"? John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 28 16:58:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 11:58:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <759A278E-5BA0-45AE-A9E3-CEB81614512B@gmail.com> Message-ID: . At any rate, it's trivial to compare the original and the copy to detect any mistakes. -*Dave* *Not if you are comparing one 20K gene chart to another. bill w* On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 10:39 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 5:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I was thinking mainly of genes. >> >> I wonder if computers hiccup. There is a thing that happens in our >> brains called 'involuntary rest pauses'. You can test yourself: just tap >> a finger on some surface and keep it up. Sooner or later you will lose the >> rhythm and miss a tap. Extroverts miss more than introverts. >> >> So if computers have IRPs (Could there be small changes in electricity >> that accounts for errors?) >> , then a copied code will be short of perfect. Does this happen this >> way? Given enough length of the program I am guessing that errors will >> happen. Then you have a bug, I suppose, which you have to fix. >> > > Computers can have all kinds of glitches: hardware problems, software > problems, power problems, etc. Almost all have at least parity memory, > meaning that errors will be detected. Most servers have error-correcting > memory, which means that most errors will be automatically fixed. At any > rate, it's trivial to compare the original and the copy to detect any > mistakes. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 28 17:10:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 12:10:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I got some of my libertarianism from Heinlein. In one of his novels he says "We'll feed and take care of your family but if you won't work you can starve." It's not just the drug addict that needs help - it's the family too. You want to be tough on the addict - fine - will you let his family starve? I would not and I think that most libertarians would not. Status restored. Our laws now protect everyone I never should have said that. I dunno what I was thinking. I have no idea what the addiction recovery rate is. Depends on the drug, I am sure. I am also pretty sure that tens of thousands of homeless people are addicted and have been in and out of therapy for years and are still shooting up. I have no idea what to do with them like the street people in SF that Spike and I have been discussing. I do not know what not treating them like helpless people would be like. How would you get tough on street people? Many of them are cross-addicted as well, and a large percentage are mentally ill. Getting tough is no solution to that, whatever that would mean. Totally agree about drug prohibition: good money after bad, or even good money after good. Has there ever been a bigger federal government failure? bill w On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 10:46 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 6:37 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> I used to think exactly the same thing with regards to drugs. I still >> think it about gambling and prostitution. But over the years I have come >> to realize that total access to drugs - antibiotics, for example, which >> would ruin their effectiveness asap - is not a good idea for everyone and >> maybe not for anyone. I hope I don't lose my libertarian standing here, >> but people are just too weak. >> > > Libertarian standing: revoked. > > >> These are powerful drugs, like Fentanyl. You would not destroy society >> but you would have drug 'prisons' (treatment centers) far larger than the >> ones for criminals. I dealt with my own problems but most simply cannot, >> it seems. Our laws now protect everyone. >> > > Bullshit. They ruin lives and create a black market that kills more people > than the drugs would. > > >> People, many, many, I don't know how many, need to be protected from >> themselves. >> > > No. People need to be treated like adults, not nannied. > > >> If I were a real hardnose I could just say "If they want to kill >> themselves that is none of my business." But it is. It takes big tax >> dollars to deal with addiction and it would increase by more than one order >> of magnitude with total access. >> > > We spend a fortune on drug prohibition. If we spent half that on treatment > we'd be way ahead of the game. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 28 19:13:20 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 15:13:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: <759A278E-5BA0-45AE-A9E3-CEB81614512B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2020, 1:01 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > . At any rate, it's trivial to compare the original and the copy to detect > any mistakes. > > -*Dave* > > *Not if you are comparing one 20K gene chart to another. bill w* > Yes, that's trivial for computers. -Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 28 21:15:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 17:15:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? Message-ID: Freedom of the press was nice while it lasted. Trump's executive order target's social media companies John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu May 28 21:28:19 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 14:28:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm hearing the order is "dead on arrival" - parts of it order things he doesn't have authority to order (and thus will get ignored), while others violate judicial precedent (and thus are likely to soon get struck down by injunction), making the whole thing meaningless as far as what any government agency will actually do. On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 2:18 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Freedom of the press was nice while it lasted. > > Trump's executive order target's social media companies > > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 28 22:08:18 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 18:08:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:30 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I'm hearing the order is "dead on arrival" - parts of it order things he > doesn't have authority to order* > When dictators destroy democracies they never have the authority to do so, but they do so anyway, and I have little confidence Trump's judges on the Supreme Court will do the right thing, much less the US Senate. So who's going to stop him? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu May 28 22:15:07 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 15:15:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The lower courts. By the time it could get to the Supreme Court (if it does get that far), enough precedent will have been cited that they won't be able to justify overruling the injunctions. Even Trump's appointees to the Supreme Court care about getting the optics right, and have shown they will buckle if they can't find a way to do that. On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 3:11 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:30 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I'm hearing the order is "dead on arrival" - parts of it order things >> he doesn't have authority to order* >> > > When dictators destroy democracies they never have the authority to do so, > but they do so anyway, and I have little confidence Trump's judges on the > Supreme Court will do the right thing, much less the US Senate. So who's > going to stop him? > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 28 23:19:19 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 19:19:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:13 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I got some of my libertarianism from Heinlein. In one of his novels he > says "We'll feed and take care of your family but if you won't work you can > starve." It's not just the drug addict that needs help - it's the family > too. You want to be tough on the addict - fine - will you let his family > starve? I would not and I think that most libertarians would not. Status > restored. > I don't want to be tough on the addict and I don't want anyone to starve. We shouldn't expect the government to do everything that needs doing. We shouldn't *let* the government do everything that needs doing. I have no idea what the addiction recovery rate is. Depends on the drug, I > am sure. I am also pretty sure that tens of thousands of homeless people > are addicted and have been in and out of therapy for years and are still > shooting up. I have no idea what to do with them like the street people in > SF that Spike and I have been discussing. I do not know what not treating > them like helpless people would be like. How would you get tough on street > people? Many of them are cross-addicted as well, and a large percentage > are mentally ill. Getting tough is no solution to that, whatever that > would mean. > I'd start by not making addicts criminals, so they can have hope of getting their life back if they beat the addiction. I don't understand "getting tough" on street people: do you think that's a lifestyle they choose? Better mental health care is something we definitely need. Totally agree about drug prohibition: good money after bad, or even good > money after good. Has there ever been a bigger federal government failure? > I'd have to think about that, but it's certainly up there. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 28 23:25:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 16:25:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 3:08 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:30 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > I'm hearing the order is "dead on arrival" - parts of it order things he doesn't have authority to order When dictators destroy democracies they never have the authority to do so, but they do so anyway, and I have little confidence Trump's judges on the Supreme Court will do the right thing, much less the US Senate. So who's going to stop him? John K Clark The constitution will stop him. But that isn?t necessary, as he didn?t actually start anything. An executive order doesn?t apply to FaceBook or Twitter: they don?t work for the government. John aren?t you glad we have a constitution? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Fri May 29 00:08:02 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 20:08:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> References: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2020, 7:30 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John aren?t you glad we have a constitution? > C'mon, I'm glad it's illegal for cops to murder citizens too.. but that shit is happening more frequently than it makes the news. And sure, Rafal can call me out for circumstantial beliefs founded on non-experiential data. We predict the next moment in order to prepare. Most people predict moments measured in subsecond intervals. Maybe with practice, attention to detail, and accurate assignment if salience one could reach into the future by minutes/hours/days. I'm suggesting that perhap John is assigning different probabilities than you to next moments and continuing to extrapolate. That compounds margin of error, sure. However, dismissing a potential future because of who names it first is a bad bias to have. In this extropy hive mind, some posters will be excitatory while others are inhibitory. A properly functioning brain is balanced. I may not always see the point of a constant stream of pain, but I know it serves a purpose. Idk, maybe i have no point and no purpose here. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 29 00:25:32 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 20:25:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> References: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Conflating gutting the 1st amendment with this executive order is misguided. It's not as black and white as that. Sec 230 as originally applied to ISPs protected them because they were not purposefully acting like publishers, merely conduits. The precedence here is to also treat companies like Twitter with the same protections, and there is a very good chance that based on that legal precedence, the SCOTUS will rule against this order in any case. Even if they don't, it will just mean that Twitter ends up being treated like any other publisher such as the NY Times or Washington Post. A challenge to remove Sec 230 protections from companies like Facebook, Twitter, and Google has been building in conservative circles for some time now as the evidence of their own political bias in filtering data through their platforms has accumulated and been documented. On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2020 3:08 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* John Clark > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is > impossible? > > > > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:30 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *> **I'm hearing the order is "dead on arrival" - parts of it order > things he doesn't have authority to order* > > > > When dictators destroy democracies they never have the authority to do so, > but they do so anyway, and I have little confidence Trump's judges on the > Supreme Court will do the right thing, much less the US Senate. So who's > going to stop him? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > The constitution will stop him. But that isn?t necessary, as he didn?t > actually start anything. An executive order doesn?t apply to FaceBook or > Twitter: they don?t work for the government. > > > > John aren?t you glad we have a constitution? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 29 00:53:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 19:53:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Deficit spending and never admitting you were wrong In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d633a0$0270a910$0751fb30$@rainier66.com> <008d01d633b5$e9747930$bc5d6b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We shouldn't *let* the government do everything that needs doing Dave How can we stop it? I have noticed for a long time, and I am sure all of you have too, that people seem to want to pass problems along to whoever will take charge of it, and that has inflated our government tremendously. Let George do it. Back in 1973 the feds sued Alabama and their mental institutions (not enough doctors, not enough nurses, not enough psychologists, not enough of anything). Patients were housed and many had been there for decades *without a treatment plan!!*. Some could have gone home decades ago but the law said that someone had to pick them up and families did not want to take care of them (let George do it) , so they stayed in the mental hospital (including hospitals for the retarded) I took students there on field trips (no more - privacy laws, which is a shame because people need to know the conditions in those place, which in some cases are as bad as our prisons, which are right now being close to being sued too - you simply would not believe what goes on in Mississippi prisons). I worked in the state mental hospital just a few miles from here - aide. To qualify for getting hired as an aide you had to have a second grade education. Just think about that. After psychiatrists, the group from which the largest percentage of admittances per capita were former aides. Don't you wish you had worked there, Henry? I was paid $190 a month plus room (dormitory) and board (cooked by patients, harvested from the on-grounds farm). 1963 this was. The feds wanted, and still want large institutions to shut down and mental health clinics, mostly outpatient, put in the large town in a county. Where this occurs, the outpatients come to get their pills and therapy. Far, far less costly than the big institutions. Feds actually having a good idea here and trying to drag MIssissippi and I am sure other states, usually Southern, into the 20th century. Yes, I meant 20th. Ever heard of any politician having as one of his issues and promises mental health? It is still a shameful subject. I wonder how many prisoners would be released if every state released those who were convicted of having an ounce or less of pot. Quite a few here. Many prisoners have been released lately because the state could not pay to have them all in the prison. Something like $30K a year per person. OK, I'll stop, but it's not so much the feds that are causing the problems, as it is the general population who do not want to be taxed any more to pay for better mental health services, even though statistics show that 1 family in (3, 2, something like that) has a person who has mental problems. bill w On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 6:19 PM Dave Sill wrote: > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 1:13 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I got some of my libertarianism from Heinlein. In one of his novels he >> says "We'll feed and take care of your family but if you won't work you can >> starve." It's not just the drug addict that needs help - it's the family >> too. You want to be tough on the addict - fine - will you let his family >> starve? I would not and I think that most libertarians would not. Status >> restored. >> > > I don't want to be tough on the addict and I don't want anyone to starve. > We shouldn't expect the government to do everything that needs doing. We > shouldn't *let* the government do everything that needs doing. > > I have no idea what the addiction recovery rate is. Depends on the drug, >> I am sure. I am also pretty sure that tens of thousands of homeless people >> are addicted and have been in and out of therapy for years and are still >> shooting up. I have no idea what to do with them like the street people in >> SF that Spike and I have been discussing. I do not know what not treating >> them like helpless people would be like. How would you get tough on street >> people? Many of them are cross-addicted as well, and a large percentage >> are mentally ill. Getting tough is no solution to that, whatever that >> would mean. >> > > I'd start by not making addicts criminals, so they can have hope of > getting their life back if they beat the addiction. I don't understand > "getting tough" on street people: do you think that's a lifestyle they > choose? Better mental health care is something we definitely need. > > Totally agree about drug prohibition: good money after bad, or even good >> money after good. Has there ever been a bigger federal government failure? >> > > I'd have to think about that, but it's certainly up there. > > -Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 29 11:46:18 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 07:46:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> References: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 7:30 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> The constitution will stop him. * > The constitution is a paper document and can't stop anything, it can't protect you, it's the thing that needs protection. If this wannabe dictator is going to be stopped its going to have to be by Human Beings, but who exactly are these people? Trump's judges? Trump's senators? Trump's generals? Clarence Thomas wasn't appointed by Trump but just a few days after Trump said he wanted to "open up the libel laws" so he could sue people who said things the president didn't like Thomas said his Supreme Court should reconsider a 1964 ruling that said a president doesn't have the authority to do that. And I can't see Mitch McConnell standing up to Trump to protect the constitution unless he thought it would help him say in power. And Trump is the military's boss, he can relieve a general of command anytime he wants, the constitution guarantees it. > *> But that isn?t necessary, as he didn?t actually start anything. An > executive order doesn?t apply to FaceBook or Twitter: they don?t work for > the government.* > So you say Trump didn't have the constitutional authority to issue that order and I agree, but that made absolutely no difference because he issued it anyway. > *> John aren?t you glad we have a constitution?* > I'd much rather have no constitution and senators who had a little integrity and were interested in something other than just remaining in power, and judges who weren't in the pocket of the generalissimo. I predict this attack on free speech will intensify as November 3 approaches, and will increase dramatically after that if Trump wins or refuses to leave if he doesn't. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 29 12:07:26 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 08:07:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: References: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 8:28 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Conflating gutting the 1st amendment with this executive order is > misguided. It's not as black and white as that. Sec 230 as originally > applied to ISPs protected them because they were not purposefully acting > like publishers, merely conduits.* > ISPs wouldn't need protection from libel laws if there were no libel laws, and as a libertarian and a believer in the free market of ideas I don't think there should be any. > * > there is a very good chance that based on that legal precedence, the > SCOTUS will rule against this order in any case. * > With this court?? * > Even if they don't, it will just mean that Twitter ends up being > treated like any other publisher such as the NY Times or Washington Post* > . > That would destroy the internet as we know it. I use Gmail, if it were treated like the NY Times or Washington Post then Google would have to run this very Email past their lawyers before you would be allowed to see it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 29 13:05:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 08:05:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] another language problem Message-ID: dContinuing our wild discussion on redundancy, how about: preplanning? or preprogrammed? or precooked? And there's more. In each case the sense wanted would be just fine with planning, programmed, and cooked. So why the 'pre'? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri May 29 14:37:44 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 07:37:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200529073744.Horde.8gvcZMNZJSnKY8gwpl6NJ4O@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Mike Dougherty: > In this extropy hive mind, some posters will be excitatory while others are > inhibitory. A properly functioning brain is balanced. > > I may not always see the point of a constant stream of pain, but I know it > serves a purpose. > > Idk, maybe i have no point and no purpose here. Mike, I think your posts very often consider angles that are not obvious, and are a valuable contribution to the conversation. Your purpose for being on the list is your own, but nonetheless your presence is appreciated. Stuart LaForge From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri May 29 14:40:18 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 07:40:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? Message-ID: Giulio Prisco wrote: > "They would be two versions of the same person each with equal claim to being the original.... This is the conclusion reached in the early 90s on this list.... This subject was beaten to death long ago." > This is still my conclusion, and yes this thing was beaten to death long ago. Not solved - It was understood, not solved because there was nothing to solve. It was also understood that except for corner cases, like crews for starships, that making copies of people was a bad idea. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 29 14:43:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 09:43:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heinlein spoiler Message-ID: OK - it's just like The Number of the Beast for the first 150 pages or so. What I found tedious about that book is the constant bickering about who is in charge and who can say what to whom, and who should be pilot and on and on. Then concepts of honor, etiquette and manners get involved, and can go on for pages. Then there is the question of what to wear - the answer being not much, but many pages of detail. Now this latest book The Pursuit of the Pankera - they do go some different places, but it's mostly the same sort of thing, including a visit to OZ. The bickering is mostly gone, but manners and what to wear are still there in abundance. Did I enjoy it? Yes, I did, and knew ahead of time that the same concepts would be explored, some in tedious detail. I still recommend it for Heinlein fans. But if you have read The Number of the Beast you might want to save your $20. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri May 29 15:11:23 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 08:11:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] another language problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Emphasis? Think of French use of ne and pas together. Each could stand alone, but often there are formations like ?je ne sais pas.? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On May 29, 2020, at 6:07 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > dContinuing our wild discussion on redundancy, how about: preplanning? or preprogrammed? or precooked? And there's more. In each case the sense wanted would be just fine with planning, programmed, and cooked. > > So why the 'pre'? > > bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Fri May 29 15:11:49 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 10:11:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? Message-ID: This thread is in reference to Trump's Executive Order: https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/politics/read-social-media-executive-order/index.html There is the immediate issue of whether social media companies violate their status as platforms rather than publishers when they censor or modify individuals' speech and whether the president has the power to decide that. On a broader level, this is the war of neo-liberal corporate elites to regain the control over information that they lost when the Internet gave people a channel for widely diseminating their speech outside of big newspapers, TV, and radio. In my 2003 column in Computer Graphics I described the Internet as bringing "a new practical freedom of speech": https://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~billh/g/roads.html The recent debate about whether Internet corporations should control speech was the motive for me to write this: https://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~billh/g/human_freedom.html Just yesterday I added a link from my article to this excellent discussion about the danger of political speech being controlled by a "Technocratic Oligarchy": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaPsI-4hV5Y Hopefully people can detach their emotions about Trump from this issue. From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri May 29 15:15:58 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 08:15:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique Message-ID: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> Answer to Where does Robert Heinlein belong in the pantheon of science fiction writers? by Michael Barnard https://www.quora.com/Where-does-Robert-Heinlein-belong-in-the-pantheon-of-science-fiction-writers/answer/Michael-Barnard-14?ch=99&share=d13daba5&srid=3cPZk Sounds about right to me. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 29 15:33:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 08:33:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: References: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016a01d635ce$880bd420$98237c60$@rainier66.com> >> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat ? >> But that isn?t necessary, as he didn?t actually start anything. An executive order doesn?t apply to FaceBook or Twitter: they don?t work for the government. >?So you say Trump didn't have the constitutional authority to issue that order and I agree, but that made absolutely no difference because he issued it anyway? Ja, so there is this executive order. Did anything change? Did congress pass any new laws? To borrow a famous quote: What difference does it make? >> John aren?t you glad we have a constitution? >?I'd much rather have no constitution? John K Clark So we gather. No worries John, I would much rather we have a constitution, enough to cover the both of us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri May 29 15:34:40 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 11:34:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:25 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Answer to Where does Robert Heinlein belong in the pantheon of science > fiction writers? by Michael Barnard > > https://www.quora.com/Where-does-Robert-Heinlein-belong-in-the-pantheon-of-science-fiction-writers/answer/Michael-Barnard-14?ch=99&share=d13daba5&srid=3cPZk > > Sounds about right to me. > "Heinlein is a Libertarian asshat and that?s clear in all of his books." What exactly is a "Libertarian asshat"? I'm not defending Heinlein's work or philosophy, but that seems rather dismissive. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri May 29 16:02:42 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 09:02:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15E06691-4351-4480-9796-9D3AFFA412DC@gmail.com> On May 29, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > >> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:25 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Answer to Where does Robert Heinlein belong in the pantheon of science fiction writers? by Michael Barnard >> https://www.quora.com/Where-does-Robert-Heinlein-belong-in-the-pantheon-of-science-fiction-writers/answer/Michael-Barnard-14?ch=99&share=d13daba5&srid=3cPZk >> >> Sounds about right to me. > > "Heinlein is a Libertarian asshat and that?s clear in all of his books." > > What exactly is a "Libertarian asshat"? > > I'm not defending Heinlein's work or philosophy, but that seems rather dismissive. I think he?s confusing libertarian with Ron Swanson. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 29 16:06:21 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 18:06:21 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please give me more "libertarian asshats" like Heinlein and less idiots like the author of this piece. On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:42 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:25 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Answer to Where does Robert Heinlein belong in the pantheon of science >> fiction writers? by Michael Barnard >> >> https://www.quora.com/Where-does-Robert-Heinlein-belong-in-the-pantheon-of-science-fiction-writers/answer/Michael-Barnard-14?ch=99&share=d13daba5&srid=3cPZk >> >> Sounds about right to me. >> > > "Heinlein is a Libertarian asshat and that?s clear in all of his books." > > What exactly is a "Libertarian asshat"? > > I'm not defending Heinlein's work or philosophy, but that seems rather > dismissive. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 29 16:09:28 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 09:09:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] another language problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To distinguish from doing it on the fly/at the time. If you are serving a cooked chicken, the default assumption is that you cooked it shortly before you served it. A precooked chicken was cooked before you obtained it, or at least was cooked some time ago. Plans can be adjusted on the fly, and often need to be as unexpected events come up. If you're still following a preplanned course, you have not yet had to adjust that particular plan. Programming, likewise, can be done on the fly - especially by certain AI systems these days, but also by humans who have no time to test or debug. This means it does not result in the highest quality of work, so it can be useful to warn when the preprogrammed code (if any) will no longer suffice and the system must be programmed in real time. On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 6:07 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > dContinuing our wild discussion on redundancy, how about: preplanning? or > preprogrammed? or precooked? And there's more. In each case the sense > wanted would be just fine with planning, programmed, and cooked. > > So why the 'pre'? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri May 29 16:55:52 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 09:55:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 29, 2020, at 9:12 AM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > Please give me more "libertarian asshats" like Heinlein and less idiots like the author of this piece. I wouldn?t say he?s an idiot for falling for the Ron Swanson as a libertarian view. Also, while Heinlein still has a huge if aging fan base, do you really ever more Heinlein imitators? If you yourself love to read Heinlein (and I don?t), do you only ever read Heinlein (when it comes to science fiction)? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri May 29 17:02:36 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 13:02:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Fri, May 29, 2020 12:06, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > Please give me more "libertarian asshats" like Heinlein and less idiots > like the author of this piece. > Indeed. Not only does he diss Heinlein, but he disses those who (in youth) enjoyed his work. Of course a lot of what Heinlein wrote is "not fit for the progressive 21 From msd001 at gmail.com Fri May 29 17:20:02 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 13:20:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: <20200529073744.Horde.8gvcZMNZJSnKY8gwpl6NJ4O@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200529073744.Horde.8gvcZMNZJSnKY8gwpl6NJ4O@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 29, 2020, 10:40 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Mike Dougherty: > > > > In this extropy hive mind, some posters will be excitatory while others > are > > inhibitory. A properly functioning brain is balanced. > > > > I may not always see the point of a constant stream of pain, but I know > it > > serves a purpose. > > > > Idk, maybe i have no point and no purpose here. > > Mike, I think your posts very often consider angles that are not > obvious, and are a valuable contribution to the conversation. Your > purpose for being on the list is your own, but nonetheless your > presence is appreciated. > Thank you > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 29 17:37:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 10:37:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: References: <20200529073744.Horde.8gvcZMNZJSnKY8gwpl6NJ4O@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <01e001d635df$cc9b5780$65d20680$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? On Fri, May 29, 2020, 10:40 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote: Quoting Mike Dougherty: > In this extropy hive mind, some posters will be excitatory while others are > inhibitory. A properly functioning brain is balanced. > > I may not always see the point of a constant stream of pain, but I know it > serves a purpose. > > Idk, maybe i have no point and no purpose here. Mike, I think your posts very often consider angles that are not obvious, and are a valuable contribution to the conversation. Your purpose for being on the list is your own, but nonetheless your presence is appreciated. >?Thank you I agree with Stuart. Reading ExI has been a diversified education in so many areas for so long. I appreciate each and every. Mike your posts are imaginative and pleasant, two characteristics high on my list of values. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri May 29 17:38:44 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 13:38:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <7f1a6541e2b0135c5147fcd649ed3130.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Gee whiz, that went out before I finished writing it! Wonder what key I hit? ;) Of course a lot of what Heinlein wrote is "not fit for the progressive 21st century feelings". Regards, MB On Fri, May 29, 2020 13:02, MB via extropy-chat wrote: > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 12:06, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> Please give me more "libertarian asshats" like Heinlein and less idiots >> like the author of this piece. >> > > Indeed. Not only does he diss Heinlein, but he disses those who (in > youth) enjoyed his work. > > Of course a lot of what Heinlein wrote is "not fit for the progressive 21 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From dsunley at gmail.com Fri May 29 17:48:29 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 11:48:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: He thinks the naked contempt the Starship Troopers film showed for it's source material was an acceptable way to adapt a pre-existing work, ever. I am no longer interested in anything else he has to say. On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:16 AM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 12:06, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > Please give me more "libertarian asshats" like Heinlein and less idiots > > like the author of this piece. > > > > Indeed. Not only does he diss Heinlein, but he disses those who (in > youth) enjoyed his work. > > Of course a lot of what Heinlein wrote is "not fit for the progressive 21 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 29 17:52:42 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 12:52:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: <7f1a6541e2b0135c5147fcd649ed3130.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <7f1a6541e2b0135c5147fcd649ed3130.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: OK, I'll bite - what is not fit for progressives? bill w On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 12:51 PM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Gee whiz, that went out before I finished writing it! Wonder what key I > hit? ;) > > Of course a lot of what Heinlein wrote is "not fit for the progressive > 21st century feelings". > > Regards, > MB > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 13:02, MB via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 12:06, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Please give me more "libertarian asshats" like Heinlein and less idiots > >> like the author of this piece. > >> > > > > Indeed. Not only does he diss Heinlein, but he disses those who (in > > youth) enjoyed his work. > > > > Of course a lot of what Heinlein wrote is "not fit for the progressive 21 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 29 18:00:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 11:00:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: <7f1a6541e2b0135c5147fcd649ed3130.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <7f1a6541e2b0135c5147fcd649ed3130.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <002001d635e3$06e15f90$14a41eb0$@rainier66.com> >> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Heinlein critique Gee whiz, that went out before I finished writing it! Wonder what key I hit? ;) >...Of course a lot of what Heinlein wrote is "not fit for the progressive 21st century feelings". Regards, MB MB, ja, plenty of what we post here regularly will not age well. We could be vilified many years in the future. We have seen plenty of examples of it. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 29 18:10:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 13:10:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: Read FilmFlam - details how movie directors change books and other sources. Mostly what they do is re-write it. Harry Potter films - few wanted to direct those because the author wanted the films to be just like the books, and to the director, that meant that they could not add any creativity of their own. It is rare the movie follows the book faithfully, for that reason. Lord of the Rings - same thing. Horrible distortion of the books - for one, Frodo is depicted as a teen, whereas in the book his is in his 50s. Bilbo is depicted as a wimp. Much, much more of that. I hated those movies (great sets, though). bill w On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 12:58 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > He thinks the naked contempt the Starship Troopers film showed for it's > source material was an acceptable way to adapt a pre-existing work, ever. > > I am no longer interested in anything else he has to say. > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:16 AM MB via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2020 12:06, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> > Please give me more "libertarian asshats" like Heinlein and less idiots >> > like the author of this piece. >> > >> >> Indeed. Not only does he diss Heinlein, but he disses those who (in >> youth) enjoyed his work. >> >> Of course a lot of what Heinlein wrote is "not fit for the progressive 21 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri May 29 19:24:10 2020 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 15:24:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: I carefully avoid films made from books - *especially* books I like. Kipling stories, Tolkein, Heinlein, Sherlock Holmes stories... I've got perfectly good "movies" of those running in my head when I read. When raising my kids I tried to read them the stories before they saw the movies. I wanted them to have their own movies. As for Heinlein, his characters doesn't fit the approved image for men now. Nor for women - capable *and* love men. I fear we've lost our way and I worry for my grandsons. But I'm old... not quite as old as Keith, but very very close! :D Regards, MB On Fri, May 29, 2020 14:10, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Read FilmFlam - details how movie directors change books and other > sources. Mostly what they do is re-write it. Harry Potter films - few > wanted to direct those because the author wanted the films to be just like > the books, and to the director, that meant that they could not add any > creativity of their own. It is rare the movie follows the book > faithfully, > for that reason. > > Lord of the Rings - same thing. Horrible distortion of the books - for > one, Frodo is depicted as a teen, whereas in the book his is in his 50s. > Bilbo is depicted as a wimp. Much, much more of that. I hated those > movies (great sets, though). > > bill w > From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 29 19:28:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 12:28:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] what social distancing? Message-ID: <006201d635ef$5aa113d0$0fe33b70$@rainier66.com> This was Wednesday's attempted launch of the Falcon 9. It appears the locals have disregarded the notion of social distancing. This is a cool bridge in any case. I used to call it the Integral Bridge because it reminds me of an integral symbol. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 47956 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 29 19:41:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 12:41:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: <006e01d635f1$2a1e7d40$7e5b77c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Heinlein critique >...I carefully avoid films made from books - *especially* books I like. Kipling stories, Tolkein, Heinlein, Sherlock Holmes stories... I've got perfectly good "movies" of those running in my head when I read... How about Enders Game? The movie version did a good job with the point of the book: that Ender was tricked into being a warrior. >...As for Heinlein, his characters doesn't fit the approved image for men now. Nor for women - capable *and* love men. I fear we've lost our way and I worry for my grandsons. But I'm old... not quite as old as Keith, but very very close! ?? Regards MB Ja, MB, you and I are from a time when copulation was far more popular than it appears to be for the modern young generation. spike From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri May 29 20:07:20 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 14:07:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Does anybody still think a US dictatorship is impossible? In-Reply-To: References: <005801d63547$54a15e20$fde41a60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:48 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 7:30 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *> The constitution will stop him. * >> > > The constitution is a paper document and can't stop anything, > Exactly. Consensus is what matters, and Consensus can override laws, constitutions, blockchains, tradition.... Anyone here willing to do more than just talk and sign a petition to fight this? Twitter Bias Against Trump? / Call His Bluff And if you are a trump supporter, you can create a competing camp to build consensus around that. Then we can show off Canonizer?s ability to build consensus out of controversy in a super camp we can all agree on, and keep the focus on that, instead of all the polarizing controversy. *How to sign:* If you haven't already, you need to create an account to verify who you are, and create at least one "nick name" to use. Nick names can be either public or private (if you want to contribute, anonymously) It is best to use your name as your public nick name, so people can know who you are. Then go to the petition camp above (or any camp you want). There you can click the "directly join or manage support" and submit that. If you do that, you will receive e-mails from people working on improving the camp and you will be expected to be involved with this work to improve things. If you don?t want to be that involved, you can just delegate your support to any of the current camp supporters. If you delegate, instead of directly supporting, you don?t receive the e-mails, and if your delegate jumps to a better camp, your support and your delegated support tree, if anyone has delegated to you, follows them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 29 20:07:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 15:07:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: <006e01d635f1$2a1e7d40$7e5b77c0$@rainier66.com> References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <006e01d635f1$2a1e7d40$7e5b77c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I claim to have the oldest and feeblest mind here - born 1/20/42. We have the image of the Victorian Age where you could not even call a piano leg a leg, and women stayed inside or preferably left town when they got pregnant (also a huge nono word) The Victorians got it on about the same as humans always have, according to the sources I found when I taught the course. Then WWI introduced the condom to the world and of course the Pill showed up around the 60s. Antibiotics in the 40s I think or a bit earlier. The worst data in the world, aside the current virus data, is from sex questionnaires. If people report doing it more that people reported 20 years ago, is it safe to assume that it has increased? We all know that's a bag of lime jello. The difficulty is correlating questionnaire data with actual practice and very few researchers have been able to do that with some validity. I suspect that young people are having sex about the same as they did 30 years ago, but I have no data to support that. Just like sex at any age, people won't give valid answers to your questions. You can count on this more than anything else in the entire world: people lie about sex. bill w On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 2:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Heinlein critique > > >...I carefully avoid films made from books - *especially* books I like. > Kipling stories, Tolkein, Heinlein, Sherlock Holmes stories... I've got > perfectly good "movies" of those running in my head when I read... > > How about Enders Game? The movie version did a good job with the point of > the book: that Ender was tricked into being a warrior. > > >...As for Heinlein, his characters doesn't fit the approved image for men > now. Nor for women - capable *and* love men. I fear we've lost our way > and I worry for my grandsons. But I'm old... not quite as old as Keith, > but very very close! ?? Regards MB > > Ja, MB, you and I are from a time when copulation was far more popular > than it appears to be for the modern young generation. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri May 29 20:25:31 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 13:25:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] what social distancing? In-Reply-To: <006201d635ef$5aa113d0$0fe33b70$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d635ef$5aa113d0$0fe33b70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <07279BE8-FB7B-4DB7-93C5-7B55973D09C5@gmail.com> On May 29, 2020, at 12:33 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > This was Wednesday?s attempted launch of the Falcon 9. It appears the locals have disregarded the notion of social distancing. > > This is a cool bridge in any case. I used to call it the Integral Bridge because it reminds me of an integral symbol. > > spike Like Gary Chartier, I have a problem with the term "social distancing." I believe Chartier calls it Orwellian. I'd probably say it seems to be something more akin to _A Brave New World_* than _1984_. Anyhow, he recommends using "physical distancing with social solidarity." That seems a double redundancy. How about "distancing with solidarity"? Regarding the folks in Florida, are you aware that they've pretty much reopened before when the photo was taken? Yeah, there are still some restrictions, but they're further along than California. I'm not sure how this has affected case rates. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri May 29 20:26:40 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 13:26:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Friday, May 29, 2020, 11:24:59 AM PDT, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Read FilmFlam - details how movie directors change books and other sources. > Mostly what they do is re-write it. Harry Potter films - few wanted to direct > those because the author wanted the films to be just like the books, and to > the director, that meant that they could not add any creativity of their own. > It is rare the movie follows the book faithfully, for that reason. Show Quoted Content > On Friday, May 29, 2020, 11:24:59 AM PDT, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Read FilmFlam - details how movie directors change books and other sources. > Mostly what they do is re-write it. Harry Potter films - few wanted to direct > those because the author wanted the films to be just like the books, and to > the director, that meant that they could not add any creativity of their own. > It is rare the movie follows the book faithfully, for that reason. Well, sometimes the same happens in theater. I don't expect movies to be like the book. That's not always a bad thing. For instance, Kubrick adaptation "The Shining," while certainly not a perfect film, worked for me despite its departures from the novel. And I enjoyed the novel. Ditto for his "2001," which goes way beyond the Arthur C. Clarke short story "The Sentinel." And I enjoyed that short story, though, full disclosure, I read it long after seeing the film. I feel the same way about the John Carpenter film "The Thing." It's a fine adaptation of the John W. Campbell novella. (By the way, one Lovecraft scholar claims Campbell basically plagiarized Lovecraft's _At the Mountains of Madness_ for his novella.) Of course, I agree some adaptations not only radically change the story, but make it worse. "The Day of the Triffids" is a bit let down from the Wyndham novel for me. Granted, Wyndham didn't write a masterpiece, but the film rushes through everything. I think the problem is, of course, to do justice to the novel would've required a much longer film -- maybe a miniseries. (It's not that long of a novel, but it does have many incidents in it.) > Lord of the Rings - same thing. Horrible distortion of the books - for one, > Frodo is depicted as a teen, whereas in the book his is in his 50s. Bilbo is > depicted as a wimp. Much, much more of that. I hated those movies (great > sets, though). Well, a bit problem with making films -- as opposed to books -- is the money involved. This kind of means you have to sell many tickets or downloads to recoup the costs and make a decent profit. That disciplines movie production in the direction of appealing to more people. Now, a noticeable thing here is that the trials and tribulation of the young appeal to all, while the middle aged tend to appeal mostly to the middle aged, and the old mostly to the old. Yeah, there are exceptions, but this tendency means a shift toward younger characters. (Not extremely so -- else every big film would be about newborns.:) Look at a film like 2012's Amour, in my opinion the best film of that year. (The Act of Killing and Beyond the Hills are close runners up IMO.) And it was nominated for a raft of Oscars and won one. Yet it made a pitiful $25 million. Why? Well, it's an art film for one, but not an inaccessible one. Instead, it's about an old couple -- old as in their eighties -- played by old actors. I think that explains the low box office receipts. (That said, the film was profitable -- almost tripling its budget at the box office. But US receipts were below its budget.) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Fri May 29 15:25:43 2020 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 15:25:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I disagree; I wrote a whole book describing a reasonable world where many copies are made: http://ageofem.com On May 29, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: This is still my conclusion, and yes this thing was beaten to death long ago. Not solved - It was understood, not solved because there was nothing to solve. It was also understood that except for corner cases, like crews for starships, that making copies of people was a bad idea. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford University Assoc. Prof. Economics, George Mason University See my books: http://ageofem.com http://elephantinthebrain.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 29 22:50:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 15:50:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501d6360b$7ce6d0d0$76b47270$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Robin D Hanson via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? I disagree; I wrote a whole book describing a reasonable world where many copies are made: http://ageofem.com Robin! Is it the REAL you, or just a copy? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Sat May 30 13:44:16 2020 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 09:44:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: <006e01d635f1$2a1e7d40$7e5b77c0$@rainier66.com> References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <006e01d635f1$2a1e7d40$7e5b77c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <202005301344.04UDiQFh004290@athena.zia.io> Spike wrote: >Ja, MB, you and I are from a time when >copulation was far more popular than it appears >to be for the modern young generation. "It is better to copulate than never." ? Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love (1973) -- David. From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 30 13:52:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 06:52:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: <202005301344.04UDiQFh004290@athena.zia.io> References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <006e01d635f1$2a1e7d40$7e5b77c0$@rainier66.com> <202005301344.04UDiQFh004290@athena.zia.io> Message-ID: <003401d63689$9ed70740$dc8515c0$@rainier66.com> David Lubkin! Where the heck have ya been, me lad? spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of David Lubkin via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 6:44 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: David Lubkin Subject: Re: [ExI] Heinlein critique Spike wrote: >Ja, MB, you and I are from a time when copulation was far more popular >than it appears to be for the modern young generation. "It is better to copulate than never." - Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love (1973) -- David. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 30 16:55:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 12:55:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Voltaire's Micromegas Message-ID: Although fantasy stories are much older I think Voltaire's 1752 "Micromegas" may be one of the first true Science Fiction stories ever written; I just finished reading it, listening to it actually, and it's really very good and doesn't sound like it's 268 years old. You can get it for free if you're on Audible. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Sat May 30 16:57:45 2020 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 16:57:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Voltaire's Micromegas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70303E44-EDA4-486C-9C30-8D9E70353135@gmu.edu> It is somewhat derivative of Gulliver?s Travels, which came before and more clearly qualifies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulliver%27s_Travels On May 30, 2020, at 12:55 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: Although fantasy stories are much older I think Voltaire's 1752 "Micromegas" may be one of the first true Science Fiction stories ever written; I just finished reading it, listening to it actually, and it's really very good and doesn't sound like it's 268 years old. You can get it for free if you're on Audible. John K Clark _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://secure-web.cisco.com/1viQ1LS0DQT4evlAAKyyYUFDmIOGURueReM7F-pf_VZIjjmQMj74Z94N1XI4UiJbTAgviJ-nNGn43_sOPADD01ERWUMpx2zfF6RM90f4q1KtBMESthL45ugXqxjjAYeQSrhNQF6Wv2Tx1tv5hJvNR1DDqLkkU1zjaR3LN463VijopIZCsjZa3xCqETvQP_4BdtCdvVFPBvglhK4n8pPUkklbCuM99u6uSz-rZjzwjdZINYFMzvtvuHFm7_JCVGyv7y_hvKcBflhKyWZPDnrfjub26657Xk_5HyV_M_dM4ZgCYSWkhLjdfoThlsfYORm9EPmNJHFfK_iVgvui00rJUYOOXWdnX4OZlm6cenMORKWiKNcjszAmX--XvJajNm29x6p3XsVRO5bpOU1MXD1EEetY89szbIFS9Dm_ueqo-JBlYrDbdy4ADhjXePVIftL2T/http%3A%2F%2Flists.extropy.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fextropy-chat Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford University Assoc. Prof. Economics, George Mason University See my books: http://ageofem.com http://elephantinthebrain.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat May 30 17:24:21 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 10:24:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Voltaire's Micromegas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21834482-D19C-459D-863A-DF94815BF44A@gmail.com> On May 30, 2020, at 9:57 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > Although fantasy stories are much older I think Voltaire's 1752 "Micromegas" may be one of the first true Science Fiction stories ever written; I just finished reading it, listening to it actually, and it's really very good and doesn't sound like it's 268 years old. You can get it for free if you're on Audible. Lucian has him beat by about 1600 years. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 30 18:28:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 11:28:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] weather is green Message-ID: <004301d636b0$1c872050$559560f0$@rainier66.com> We are green for launch on weather. Less than an hour to launch, 15:33 EDT. Be there or B^2. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 30 19:05:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 12:05:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] weather is green In-Reply-To: <004301d636b0$1c872050$559560f0$@rainier66.com> References: <004301d636b0$1c872050$559560f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301d636b5$540b1040$fc2130c0$@rainier66.com> Correction, T ? 0 is 15:22 EDT. spike From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 11:28 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: weather is green We are green for launch on weather. Less than an hour to launch, 15:33 EDT. Be there or B^2. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat May 30 19:41:47 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 12:41:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] weather is green In-Reply-To: <005301d636b5$540b1040$fc2130c0$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d636b5$540b1040$fc2130c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2657B4EA-B22B-41E3-A505-75259309A853@gmail.com> Spectacular! Hopefully, the first of many. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 30 19:47:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 12:47:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] weather is green In-Reply-To: <005301d636b5$540b1040$fc2130c0$@rainier66.com> References: <004301d636b0$1c872050$559560f0$@rainier66.com> <005301d636b5$540b1040$fc2130c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006701d636bb$2e7a4e80$8b6eeb80$@rainier66.com> Woohoo! Well done Mr. Musk! spike From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 12:06 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: weather is green Correction, T ? 0 is 15:22 EDT. spike From: spike at rainier66.com > Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 11:28 AM To: 'ExI chat list' > Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: weather is green We are green for launch on weather. Less than an hour to launch, 15:33 EDT. Be there or B^2. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat May 30 19:52:04 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 15:52:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] weather is green In-Reply-To: <006701d636bb$2e7a4e80$8b6eeb80$@rainier66.com> References: <004301d636b0$1c872050$559560f0$@rainier66.com> <005301d636b5$540b1040$fc2130c0$@rainier66.com> <006701d636bb$2e7a4e80$8b6eeb80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It was beautiful to watch and nice to be able to breathe a big sigh of relief. A shining beacon in the current darkness enveloping the land... On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 3:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Woohoo! Well done Mr. Musk! > > > > spike > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Saturday, May 30, 2020 12:06 PM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: weather is green > > > > > > > > > > > > Correction, T ? 0 is 15:22 EDT. > > > > spike > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Saturday, May 30, 2020 11:28 AM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* weather is green > > > > > > > > We are green for launch on weather. Less than an hour to launch, 15:33 > EDT. Be there or B^2. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat May 30 22:17:17 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 15:17:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? Message-ID: Robin D Hanson wrote: (re my objection to copies) > I disagree; I wrote a whole book describing a reasonable world where many copies are made: http://ageofem.com And you might be right, nobody has a lock on what the future will turn out to be, certainly not me. However, I have two objections. My work in evolutionary psychology leads me to feel very uncomfortable about using humans as a model for building minds. Humans have traits like capture-bonding and those which lead up to wars that were selected. Having one of those (or ones we don't know about) activate in a powerful AI seems intolerably dangerous. The other objection is right out of economics. If it is cheap to copy something its value falls to the marginal cost. I.e., one Michael Jordan is valuable, at least to him. 10,000 of them would have an interesting time finding teams to play with. But, as I freely admit, you might be right and a vast number of copies could be the path to utopia. Keith From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun May 31 01:00:36 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 20:00:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] weather is green In-Reply-To: References: <004301d636b0$1c872050$559560f0$@rainier66.com> <005301d636b5$540b1040$fc2130c0$@rainier66.com> <006701d636bb$2e7a4e80$8b6eeb80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <3507FC24-42D4-4E55-B1EB-A7F051421DF0@gmail.com> I agree. Super exciting to see and gave me some hope in these turbulent times. Hopefully the good news keeps coming. SR Ballard > On May 30, 2020, at 2:52 PM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > It was beautiful to watch and nice to be able to breathe a big sigh of relief. A shining beacon in the current darkness enveloping the land... > >> On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 3:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> Woohoo! Well done Mr. Musk! >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> From: spike at rainier66.com >> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 12:06 PM >> To: 'ExI chat list' >> Cc: spike at rainier66.com >> Subject: RE: weather is green >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Correction, T ? 0 is 15:22 EDT. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> From: spike at rainier66.com >> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 11:28 AM >> To: 'ExI chat list' >> Cc: spike at rainier66.com >> Subject: weather is green >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We are green for launch on weather. Less than an hour to launch, 15:33 EDT. Be there or B^2. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 31 03:29:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 20:29:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ring of truth Message-ID: <00de01d636fb$b542bf70$1fc83e50$@rainier66.com> Ja I know, this guy's a comedian, not a scientist. But this commentary has a ring of truth to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28I5WyLp15o &feature=youtu.be spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 31 10:46:04 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 06:46:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: <006e01d635f1$2a1e7d40$7e5b77c0$@rainier66.com> References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <006e01d635f1$2a1e7d40$7e5b77c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 3:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> How about Enders Game? The movie version did a good job with the point > of the book: that Ender was tricked into being a warrior.* In the movie Ender was a teenager but in the book he was 6, however I think that was a change for the better; 6 just wouldn't have worked. Very good movie although I wish it had made it as clear as it was in the book that Ender had actually killed the bullies Stilson and Bonzo and hadn't just hurt them. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 31 13:59:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 06:59:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Heinlein critique In-Reply-To: References: <49F9B629-7AA2-41C3-A00D-2A6D16F2353A@gmail.com> <966c1f7d00e1dbba27b27726de852503.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <006e01d635f1$2a1e7d40$7e5b77c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005601d63753$b59655b0$20c30110$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 3:46 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] Heinlein critique On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 3:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> How about Enders Game? The movie version did a good job with the point of the book: that Ender was tricked into being a warrior. >?In the movie Ender was a teenager but in the book he was 6, however I think that was a change for the better; 6 just wouldn't have worked. Very good movie although I wish it had made it as clear as it was in the book that Ender had actually killed the bullies Stilson and Bonzo and hadn't just hurt them. John K Clark Ja, Ender was created as a superhuman intelligence thru genetic engineering. Bean from Ender?s Shadow was even smarter. That really wasn?t an option for movies to have a 6 yr old Ender: you can?t get sufficiently talented actors that age to pull off the role. The movie version also introduced sexual tension, which improved the story in a way, and of course is a strict requirement for all Hollywood movies. That was a rare example of one where I really liked the movie after having read the book. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 31 15:01:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 08:01:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bond villain Message-ID: <008b01d6375c$5dfc40e0$19f4c2a0$@rainier66.com> I have been following the Spacex adventure. Someone commented that Elon Musk reminds them of a Bond villain: huge corporation, deep piles of money, all this advanced technology, hell even the slight foreign accent required of all bad guys: he has it all. In those stories, Bond is a super-sophisticated government guy working against super-sophisticated technology-enabled bad guy. But what if. the technology billionaire is the good guy doing good things, and the government agent is the bad guy? That would put a fun new spin on things. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun May 31 15:25:53 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 17:25:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] bond villain In-Reply-To: <008b01d6375c$5dfc40e0$19f4c2a0$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d6375c$5dfc40e0$19f4c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Let's thank the Simulators for Elon Musk. He is very needed. On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 5:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > I have been following the Spacex adventure. Someone commented that Elon > Musk reminds them of a Bond villain: huge corporation, deep piles of money, > all this advanced technology, hell even the slight foreign accent required > of all bad guys: he has it all. > > > > In those stories, Bond is a super-sophisticated government guy working > against super-sophisticated technology-enabled bad guy. But what if? the > technology billionaire is the good guy doing good things, and the > government agent is the bad guy? That would put a fun new spin on things. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 31 16:02:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 09:02:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bond villain In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d6375c$5dfc40e0$19f4c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00be01d63764$db7937a0$926ba6e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] bond villain >>?I have been following the Spacex adventure. Someone commented that Elon Musk reminds them of a Bond villain?But what if? the technology billionaire is the good guy doing good things, and the government agent is the bad guy? ?. spike >?Let's thank the Simulators for Elon Musk. He is very needed? Giulio Ja, roger that Giulio. A good friend of mine since we were age 7 grew up with the space program as I did (what a marvelous privilege that was) worked at the cape during the shuttle years, lives near the giant integral sign (Max Brewer Bridge) and was out there both days, the rained-out Wednesday and again Saturday. His comment interested me: there have been plenty of Spacex launches out of the cape (he estimates about 70 of them over the last about ten years.) He lives down on the Indian River about a km from the Integral so he sees them all and he sees the crowds. This was the first manned Spacex launch. This time it was a completely different game: waaaay the heeelllll more people, way more enthusiasm: the crowd went crazy, cheering and acting like fools out there when they lit the candle, great time. It was Apollo all over again. I am struggling with the irony. The unmanned launches carry instruments of enormous scientific value, and of course that feet-first landing trick is the controls engineer?s playground. This launch took a coupla fellers to the station, which has little if any remaining scientific value: we already know the answers to the (very few) questions that station gave us. The proletariat cheered like crazy for the scientifically uninteresting, while shrugging off the really valuable science. Shows to go ya: no Buck Rogers, no bucks. Damn. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun May 31 16:11:24 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 18:11:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] bond villain In-Reply-To: <00be01d63764$db7937a0$926ba6e0$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d6375c$5dfc40e0$19f4c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00be01d63764$db7937a0$926ba6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes. No Buck Rogers, no popular enthusiasm, no bucks. The lesson is loud and clear. On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 6:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] bond villain > > > > > > > > >>?I have been following the Spacex adventure. Someone commented that Elon Musk reminds them of a Bond villain?But what if? the technology billionaire is the good guy doing good things, and the government agent is the bad guy? ?. spike > > > > > > > > >?Let's thank the Simulators for Elon Musk. He is very needed? Giulio > > > > > > Ja, roger that Giulio. A good friend of mine since we were age 7 grew up with the space program as I did (what a marvelous privilege that was) worked at the cape during the shuttle years, lives near the giant integral sign (Max Brewer Bridge) and was out there both days, the rained-out Wednesday and again Saturday. His comment interested me: there have been plenty of Spacex launches out of the cape (he estimates about 70 of them over the last about ten years.) He lives down on the Indian River about a km from the Integral so he sees them all and he sees the crowds. > > > > This was the first manned Spacex launch. This time it was a completely different game: waaaay the heeelllll more people, way more enthusiasm: the crowd went crazy, cheering and acting like fools out there when they lit the candle, great time. It was Apollo all over again. > > > > I am struggling with the irony. The unmanned launches carry instruments of enormous scientific value, and of course that feet-first landing trick is the controls engineer?s playground. This launch took a coupla fellers to the station, which has little if any remaining scientific value: we already know the answers to the (very few) questions that station gave us. The proletariat cheered like crazy for the scientifically uninteresting, while shrugging off the really valuable science. > > > > Shows to go ya: no Buck Rogers, no bucks. > > > > Damn. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 31 16:16:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 11:16:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] bond villain In-Reply-To: <00be01d63764$db7937a0$926ba6e0$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d6375c$5dfc40e0$19f4c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00be01d63764$db7937a0$926ba6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Recovery of the first stage was awesome. Beyond that I think have lost most of my awe about getting things in orbit. That it was private business, mostly, was certainly a significant event. TV news I don't watch, but I suspect that no details of the scientific aspects of the program will see the air, which, by the way, is now outdated for TV (but not for radio - does anyone listen to radio news?). bill w On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 11:04 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bond villain > > > > > > > > >>?I have been following the Spacex adventure. Someone commented that > Elon Musk reminds them of a Bond villain?But what if? the technology > billionaire is the good guy doing good things, and the government agent is > the bad guy? ?. spike > > > > > > > > >?Let's thank the Simulators for Elon Musk. He is very needed? Giulio > > > > > > Ja, roger that Giulio. A good friend of mine since we were age 7 grew up > with the space program as I did (what a marvelous privilege that was) > worked at the cape during the shuttle years, lives near the giant integral > sign (Max Brewer Bridge) and was out there both days, the rained-out > Wednesday and again Saturday. His comment interested me: there have been > plenty of Spacex launches out of the cape (he estimates about 70 of them > over the last about ten years.) He lives down on the Indian River about a > km from the Integral so he sees them all and he sees the crowds. > > > > This was the first manned Spacex launch. This time it was a completely > different game: waaaay the heeelllll more people, way more enthusiasm: the > crowd went crazy, cheering and acting like fools out there when they lit > the candle, great time. It was Apollo all over again. > > > > I am struggling with the irony. The unmanned launches carry instruments > of enormous scientific value, and of course that feet-first landing trick > is the controls engineer?s playground. This launch took a coupla fellers > to the station, which has little if any remaining scientific value: we > already know the answers to the (very few) questions that station gave us. > The proletariat cheered like crazy for the scientifically uninteresting, > while shrugging off the really valuable science. > > > > Shows to go ya: no Buck Rogers, no bucks. > > > > Damn. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun May 31 18:43:27 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:43:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] bond villain In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d6375c$5dfc40e0$19f4c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00be01d63764$db7937a0$926ba6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Manned spaceflight is always exciting. Humans are excited to go to other planets--not just send probes there. It's very obvious why this is a bigger deal to the public and I think their excitement is valid -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun May 31 19:25:54 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 12:25:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bond villain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F5355D2-E2CD-4A0D-9841-8400533DE312@gmail.com> I?m not sure there?s much in the way of new science on this particular mission. It?s merely demonstrating that the Crew Dragon can deliver people safely to orbit. The first stage landing on a drone ship thing is something SpaceX has done dozens of times. They?ve literally managed to bring back and land the first stage 40 times ? when one includes landings on land. (This is out of 47 attempts, so around 85% of the attempts have succeeded. So there?s little new to see here for avid SpaceX watchers.) The big deal about this is that it should make for lower cost more or less routine delivery of people to orbit. The next planned Cree Dragon mission is in August, and then there are a few more for next year, including tourist flights. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On May 31, 2020, at 9:26 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Recovery of the first stage was awesome. Beyond that I think have lost most of my awe about getting things in orbit. That it was private business, mostly, was certainly a significant event. TV news I don't watch, but I suspect that no details of the scientific aspects of the program will see the air, which, by the way, is now outdated for TV (but not for radio - does anyone listen to radio news?). bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun May 31 19:58:07 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 12:58:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bond villain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is exciting for now, though it?ll eventually become routine. I recall reading that the public kind of lost interest in the Apollo program after the first Moon landing, and then the Apollo 13 disaster happened, but after that interest seemed to decline again. The big deal about this flight got me is it seems an important milestone along the path to routine and far less expensive access to space. SpaceX even has tourist missions planned for next year. Personally, I want this to become so routine, safe, and cheap that it becomes boring. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On May 31, 2020, at 11:46 AM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Manned spaceflight is always exciting. Humans are excited to go to other planets--not just send probes there. It's very obvious why this is a bigger deal to the public and I think their excitement is valid > _____________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Sun May 31 14:43:20 2020 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson) Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:43:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Is a copy of you really you? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ABC3630-0D4D-4B3D-988B-1244DB8A72E8@gmu.edu> On May 30, 2020, at 6:17 PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: Robin D Hanson > wrote: (re my objection to copies) I disagree; I wrote a whole book describing a reasonable world where many copies are made: http://secure-web.cisco.com/1srwyFDaQB9JwP2aPmkRXjzBAzQhOpc2mar0Xa6a1R3bSNHDjxy9h-WAArGSJnfqNgdkNlMEDBNqEhSVufW6RI-r3uzru0fPH75gCKBNqMY7MAxJA8yTJClCIUBpNLox8flI-s7X9deyRLKosdk0GBOZf0h-o13wSw_3AKb1PxypKE8-aiG45wMA3JSSG8jFRnVYQc4CM7wioFttRzEYyvSlB7_RUbslHdSIXjvYvTfteQC-xg0ZjBXnwHXiM3CI_uGOswtfavYDbYfwvqCtS1qWPNKBqkXFRUCYUuv-K-_gIHg2vXjjPsAJsLMBfFvz2BiNNdi2ztyWv-bSMjtwTR8ztFVQCNKluDEjIYq3v-KwD7o_UL3iea0cmBR6FbDdcuXLGkJ5e06kzzcDqFdW-hWzan3AxCxBS_nZC54JRr5_X_3-05yNRyrgRU6EDDVGmWAf-nhFJpiVl8lmL2pXiUA/http%3A%2F%2Fageofem.com And you might be right, nobody has a lock on what the future will turn out to be, certainly not me. However, I have two objections. My work in evolutionary psychology leads me to feel very uncomfortable about using humans as a model for building minds. Humans have traits like capture-bonding and those which lead up to wars that were selected. Having one of those (or ones we don't know about) activate in a powerful AI seems intolerably dangerous. That same argument would suggest trying to eliminate the human minds in meat brains, as well as those in artificial brains. But if you see human brains as holding most of the value in the world, you?ll want more of them. The other objection is right out of economics. If it is cheap to copy something its value falls to the marginal cost. I.e., one Michael Jordan is valuable, at least to him. 10,000 of them would have an interesting time finding teams to play with. The fact of diminishing marginal value is not at all an economic argument against larger quantities of anything. But, as I freely admit, you might be right and a vast number of copies could be the path to utopia. I?m not claiming utopia; I?m not sure the concept is even coherent. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford University Assoc. Prof. Economics, George Mason University See my books: http://ageofem.com http://elephantinthebrain.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: