From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 16:09:50 2021
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:09:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
Message-ID: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr  3 16:19:21 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:19:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <000601d728a5$1b2e4110$518ac330$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Hermes 
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma

 

>?I have a question for all you cryonics enthusiasts. Suppose you are diagnosed with Alzheimer?s. Would you endure and have your neurons die and disintegrate beyond even information recovery with a nearly guaranteed few more years of additional life, or bite the bullet for a chance at a significantly longer lifespan?

 

 

 

Hermes, if you figure out a good answer to that classic dilemma, we salute you.  If not, join the club.  It?s a big one.

 

spike

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 17:00:21 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 10:00:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>

On Apr 3, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:?
> I have a question for all you cryonics enthusiasts. Suppose you are diagnosed with Alzheimer?s. Would you endure and have your neurons die and disintegrate beyond even information recovery with a nearly guaranteed few more years of additional life, or bite the bullet for a chance at a significantly longer lifespan?

My understanding ? and please others correct me if I?m misinformed here ? is if you?re thinking of ?ending? your life sooner to get into cryonic suspension, this probably won?t work out well because the government might see this as suicide and then do stuff like run a full autopsy.

Regards,

Dan
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 17:05:31 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 11:05:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsWaBUr6aiKRd7m07zDTdJ17idgf0=D+k6c4ts6eO2Uzg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm afraid of this, more than anything.  Not just for the obvious reasons
you point out (losing your brain before it can get on ice), but for the
horrible fact that getting on ice Sonner (effectively committing suicide),
is against the law!!!  That is just sooooo evil.  How do we get that
changed?

Brent


On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 11:01 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Apr 3, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:?
>
> I have a question for all you cryonics enthusiasts. Suppose you are
> diagnosed with Alzheimer?s. Would you endure and have your neurons die and
> disintegrate beyond even information recovery with a nearly guaranteed few
> more years of additional life, or bite the bullet for a chance at a
> significantly longer lifespan?
>
>
> My understanding ? and please others correct me if I?m misinformed here ?
> is if you?re thinking of ?ending? your life sooner to get into cryonic
> suspension, this probably won?t work out well because the government might
> see this as suicide and then do stuff like run a full autopsy.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 17:17:14 2021
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:17:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>,
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4093F3-B317-47F5-8561-AA4E190109A4@hxcore.ol>

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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 17:17:16 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 03:17:16 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onsWaBUr6aiKRd7m07zDTdJ17idgf0=D+k6c4ts6eO2Uzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWaBUr6aiKRd7m07zDTdJ17idgf0=D+k6c4ts6eO2Uzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypWgnH8oW6ncu0pq1ZroBkrQzhb8HyCE=vrC-MLSfwsatg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 at 03:09, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I'm afraid of this, more than anything.  Not just for the obvious reasons
> you point out (losing your brain before it can get on ice), but for the
> horrible fact that getting on ice Sonner (effectively committing suicide),
> is against the law!!!  That is just sooooo evil.  How do we get that
> changed?
>

There are some countries and US states that allow euthanasia. How does that
work with cryonics?

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 11:01 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 3, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:?
>>
>> I have a question for all you cryonics enthusiasts. Suppose you are
>> diagnosed with Alzheimer?s. Would you endure and have your neurons die and
>> disintegrate beyond even information recovery with a nearly guaranteed few
>> more years of additional life, or bite the bullet for a chance at a
>> significantly longer lifespan?
>>
>>
>> My understanding ? and please others correct me if I?m misinformed here ?
>> is if you?re thinking of ?ending? your life sooner to get into cryonic
>> suspension, this probably won?t work out well because the government might
>> see this as suicide and then do stuff like run a full autopsy.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 17:27:22 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 11:27:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypWgnH8oW6ncu0pq1ZroBkrQzhb8HyCE=vrC-MLSfwsatg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWaBUr6aiKRd7m07zDTdJ17idgf0=D+k6c4ts6eO2Uzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWgnH8oW6ncu0pq1ZroBkrQzhb8HyCE=vrC-MLSfwsatg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvY6pH3MuHdBqpa2y1qXqT1cYbYE=9KVWNyd9NRUZ1VUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 11:25 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 at 03:09, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm afraid of this, more than anything.  Not just for the obvious reasons
>> you point out (losing your brain before it can get on ice), but for the
>> horrible fact that getting on ice Sonner (effectively committing suicide),
>> is against the law!!!  That is just sooooo evil.  How do we get that
>> changed?
>>
>
> There are some countries and US states that allow euthanasia. How does
> that work with cryonics?
>

That is true.  I believe it has recently been made legal in Washington
state, for example.
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 17:43:59 2021
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:43:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvY6pH3MuHdBqpa2y1qXqT1cYbYE=9KVWNyd9NRUZ1VUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWaBUr6aiKRd7m07zDTdJ17idgf0=D+k6c4ts6eO2Uzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWgnH8oW6ncu0pq1ZroBkrQzhb8HyCE=vrC-MLSfwsatg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvY6pH3MuHdBqpa2y1qXqT1cYbYE=9KVWNyd9NRUZ1VUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjsU=U3ZTqfD5=uomKN2rwVk74Cbh8QBNTGrYsreNFXFA@mail.gmail.com>

There was a guy in the US in this exact situation a few years ago  if I
recall correctly his wish to be frozen before his brain deteriorated was
denied by a court.

Jason

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 12:33 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 11:25 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 at 03:09, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm afraid of this, more than anything.  Not just for the obvious
>>> reasons you point out (losing your brain before it can get on ice), but for
>>> the horrible fact that getting on ice Sonner (effectively committing
>>> suicide), is against the law!!!  That is just sooooo evil.  How do we get
>>> that changed?
>>>
>>
>> There are some countries and US states that allow euthanasia. How does
>> that work with cryonics?
>>
>
> That is true.  I believe it has recently been made legal in Washington
> state, for example.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 17:54:54 2021
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 13:54:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUjsU=U3ZTqfD5=uomKN2rwVk74Cbh8QBNTGrYsreNFXFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWaBUr6aiKRd7m07zDTdJ17idgf0=D+k6c4ts6eO2Uzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWgnH8oW6ncu0pq1ZroBkrQzhb8HyCE=vrC-MLSfwsatg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvY6pH3MuHdBqpa2y1qXqT1cYbYE=9KVWNyd9NRUZ1VUQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CA+BCJUjsU=U3ZTqfD5=uomKN2rwVk74Cbh8QBNTGrYsreNFXFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49650F14-BDDD-45BB-A309-3182E35D7727@hxcore.ol>

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr  3 17:56:45 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 10:56:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUjsU=U3ZTqfD5=uomKN2rwVk74Cbh8QBNTGrYsreNFXFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWaBUr6aiKRd7m07zDTdJ17idgf0=D+k6c4ts6eO2Uzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWgnH8oW6ncu0pq1ZroBkrQzhb8HyCE=vrC-MLSfwsatg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvY6pH3MuHdBqpa2y1qXqT1cYbYE=9KVWNyd9NRUZ1VUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjsU=U3ZTqfD5=uomKN2rwVk74Cbh8QBNTGrYsreNFXFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d728b2$b692e950$23b8bbf0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Jason Resch via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma

 

There was a guy in the US in this exact situation a few years ago  if I recall correctly his wish to be frozen before his brain deteriorated was denied by a court.

 

Jason

 

 

Ja, this is a big problem.  If one must go into assisted living with full accommodations, the cost of cryonic suspension is about equal to that distasteful arrangement for five months.  Think about that.

 

spike

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Apr  3 18:05:37 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 12:05:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUjsU=U3ZTqfD5=uomKN2rwVk74Cbh8QBNTGrYsreNFXFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsWaBUr6aiKRd7m07zDTdJ17idgf0=D+k6c4ts6eO2Uzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWgnH8oW6ncu0pq1ZroBkrQzhb8HyCE=vrC-MLSfwsatg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvY6pH3MuHdBqpa2y1qXqT1cYbYE=9KVWNyd9NRUZ1VUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjsU=U3ZTqfD5=uomKN2rwVk74Cbh8QBNTGrYsreNFXFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsFoFEHZ1WA_AD6ucACBuu889Qxk-=9h-Jji5fgBheGaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 11:44 AM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

> There was a guy in the US in this exact situation a few years ago  if I
> recall correctly his wish to be frozen before his brain deteriorated was
> denied by a court.
>
> Jason
>
>> <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>
>
Damn, what devils.  The only way to ever achieve true justice, in such a
case, for the sin the people responsible for such laws and court decisions,
against that person, is for them to be a slave to that person four probably
one hundred thousand years or more, after being resurrected.  Someone
should warn those sinners about the cost they must pay for such sins
against people, before they pass those kinds of laws and make those kinds
of worse than murderous, freedom destroying decisions.
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From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Apr  3 17:37:49 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 10:37:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d105ed22-b269-1bec-532e-d279d2169029@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-03 10:00, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote:
> My understanding ? and please others correct me if I?m misinformed here 
> ? is if you?re thinking of ?ending? your life sooner to get into cryonic 
> suspension, this probably won?t work out well because the government 
> might see this as suicide and then do stuff like run a full autopsy.

There was a court case about that in California once upon a time.  The 
plaintiff had brain cancer and wanted to go into the tank before it ate 
his brain.  He sued for an order preventing the State from meddling. 
The judge said "We are not here to help you in your nutty project."

With all *due* respect, your Honor, there is a difference between 
helping and not hindering.

I've seen a loophole in fiction once or twice: the patient checks 
himself into hospital and refuses all food or treatment other than water 
and painkillers; in due course he dies of hunger and, because his death 
was "attended", no autopsy is required.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 04:05:17 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 00:05:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <d105ed22-b269-1bec-532e-d279d2169029@pobox.com>
References: <691A9BCC-83DA-4221-A989-237D02AAA8B4@hxcore.ol>
 <A5D20235-95DB-42C5-8AEF-B44B29168598@gmail.com>
 <d105ed22-b269-1bec-532e-d279d2169029@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2HW51LtXhh6cJZ+gaPwGKU+zXFY=xUe9i0L7NejbSgGw@mail.gmail.com>

And so what is the current stance of the courts in Washington State,
regarding this matter?

I suppose if they are not supportive, a person would need to fly to
Switzerland and get arrangements with a hospice and also a mortuary there.
And so upon death, your iced body is shipped back to America for a belated
suspension.

You should be okay as long as KrioRus is not involved! Lol  ;  )

John



On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 2:19 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-4-03 10:00, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote:
> > My understanding ? and please others correct me if I?m misinformed here
> > ? is if you?re thinking of ?ending? your life sooner to get into cryonic
> > suspension, this probably won?t work out well because the government
> > might see this as suicide and then do stuff like run a full autopsy.
>
> There was a court case about that in California once upon a time.  The
> plaintiff had brain cancer and wanted to go into the tank before it ate
> his brain.  He sued for an order preventing the State from meddling.
> The judge said "We are not here to help you in your nutty project."
>
> With all *due* respect, your Honor, there is a difference between
> helping and not hindering.
>
> I've seen a loophole in fiction once or twice: the patient checks
> himself into hospital and refuses all food or treatment other than water
> and painkillers; in due course he dies of hunger and, because his death
> was "attended", no autopsy is required.
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 04:10:48 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 00:10:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] who knew he had a sense of humor?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYRhGCqn9_VpUZsCQLMzW8ynDQKpVQu6ofC2+pS6_85OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYRhGCqn9_VpUZsCQLMzW8ynDQKpVQu6ofC2+pS6_85OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy33yEwx0T7sKsE8evKOKcqvnPOjwks+N2ATdPXdwnXaRA@mail.gmail.com>

By the standards of Stalin, Mr. Putin has been very restrained.

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 1:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> https://nypost.com/2021/03/21/putin-poses-in-sheepskin-after-biden-called-him-a-killer/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  4 14:03:45 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:03:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] who knew he had a sense of humor?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy33yEwx0T7sKsE8evKOKcqvnPOjwks+N2ATdPXdwnXaRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYRhGCqn9_VpUZsCQLMzW8ynDQKpVQu6ofC2+pS6_85OQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy33yEwx0T7sKsE8evKOKcqvnPOjwks+N2ATdPXdwnXaRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbaHGA+N2z5pL2aFY4Av2+_4sF7ZqWO+dDqH-ndU89cWA@mail.gmail.com>

 John Grigg wrote:

> By the standards of Stalin, Mr. Putin has been very restrained.
>
> :I would hope that Stalin did not set a standard.  I hope that Pol Pot,
> Stalin, Mao, and the like will never be seen again.  The proliferation of
> information will stop them if anything will.  bill w
>
>>
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Apr  5 06:33:35 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 23:33:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Aphantasia
Message-ID: <20210404233335.Horde.O9uJC9C5S3H46mqJiaaOEPf@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Here is a relatively new phenomenon to inform our perennial discussion  
of qualia and consciousness: some people readily admit to not being  
able to visualize things in their heads. They can for example  
recognize the color red when they see it but they cannot imagine the  
color red when they are not actively seeing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewsGmhAjjjI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arc1fdoMi2Y

These people seem to be the visual equivalent of the more  
auditory-related "NPC" phenomenon of people who have no internal  
monologue. Both of these types of people are clearly intelligent, but  
they seem to process sensory information differently than most people.

Thoughts?

Stuart LaForge








From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 08:15:35 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 16:15:35 +0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Dune_=282020=29_-_Cast_Q=26A_with_Timoth=C3=A9e_?=
	=?utf-8?q?Chalamet=2C_Zendaya=2C_Oscar_Isaac=2C_Josh_Brolin?=
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1V+hnVydL68XiQ_1Bd9Ket2kQU6gmb6XCxzjm9iHVgCQ@mail.gmail.com>

I can't wait! And what a director and cast!  :  )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvIasUKWgYs

John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 08:27:48 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 16:27:48 +0800
Subject: [ExI] I Can't Stop Looking At This $39,
 000 Louis Vuitton Airplane Bag
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3_R61vqD7uvH=9bgb-BETi8fko1RMu5k+BmFrvTb7jGA@mail.gmail.com>

It must be seen to be believed... Where would this actually sell? Perhaps
Russia?

https://jalopnik.com/i-cant-stop-looking-at-this-39-000-louis-vuitton-airpl-1846611907

John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 08:31:55 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 16:31:55 +0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Most_of_the_World_Has_a_Simple_Vaccine_Request?=
	=?utf-8?q?=2E_America_Isn=E2=80=99t_Listening=2E?=
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy13BKd7UKR7vvaeD4jTDawgsR_S34BpF6sner3Euwb3mg@mail.gmail.com>

Nations across the world are demanding the right to manufacture their own
Covid-19 vaccines. Why is the U.S. saying no?
"Vaccine distribution is being spoken and written about as a zero-sum game
because of the conditions of artificial scarcity that our government has
created and is presently enforcing. If more Americans actually knew the
substance of the requests being made by other nations, they?d have no
reason to worry about losing any of ?our? vaccine doses. Instead, they
would understand that the only thing at risk?and only temporarily at
that?are some potential future profits of Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, and
the like. It?s hard to believe many of them would side with our
government?s position on the matter. The lack of interest by the American
media means we?ll never get to find out."

https://newrepublic.com/article/161704/global-vaccine-shortage-intellectual-property
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 08:45:32 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 16:45:32 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Mysterious brain infection makes bears act 'like friendly
 dogs'
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3th=ytqARdbX1BzyH8yGOZrSfP7D9o36HoVL9OgB_OCA@mail.gmail.com>

"A mysterious neurological disease in young Californian black bears (*Ursus
americanus*) is making them behave like pet dogs, cozying up to humans in a
friendly manner.

Though it sounds cute, this abnormal behavior dramatically worsens the
bears' chances of surviving in the wild.

The *bears* <https://www.livescience.com/27647-bears.html>, which are all
around 1 year old, appear to be suffering from a form of infectious
encephalitis ? inflammation of the brain tissue that can be caused by
*viruses* <https://www.livescience.com/53272-what-is-a-virus.html>,
*bacteria* <https://www.livescience.com/51641-bacteria.html>, *fungi*
<https://www.livescience.com/53618-fungus.html> and parasites, as well as
part of an autoimmune response. But veterinarians are unsure exactly what
is causing the problem or how fast it is spreading among the population."
https://www.livescience.com/mystery-disease-fearless-californian-bears.html
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From ddraig at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 09:03:14 2021
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 19:03:14 +1000
Subject: [ExI] I Can't Stop Looking At This $39,
 000 Louis Vuitton Airplane Bag
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3_R61vqD7uvH=9bgb-BETi8fko1RMu5k+BmFrvTb7jGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3_R61vqD7uvH=9bgb-BETi8fko1RMu5k+BmFrvTb7jGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy3AH0BD-gMUmxB=fOs1RnHK47wKyvrhiGugx7LGUwfr2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 at 18:29, John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It must be seen to be believed... Where would this actually sell? Perhaps
> Russia?
>
>
> https://jalopnik.com/i-cant-stop-looking-at-this-39-000-louis-vuitton-airpl-1846611907
>

When I was in Munich a couple of years ago I saw a couple of 300,000 euro
watches.  That was impressive. What was even more impressive was how
completely ugly they were.

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com              ddraigbot / NSO / Connery
         ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
                   http://fav.me/dqkgpd
<http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg>
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr  5 13:59:32 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 06:59:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I Can't Stop Looking At This $39,
 000 Louis Vuitton Airplane Bag
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy3AH0BD-gMUmxB=fOs1RnHK47wKyvrhiGugx7LGUwfr2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3_R61vqD7uvH=9bgb-BETi8fko1RMu5k+BmFrvTb7jGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGfkSy3AH0BD-gMUmxB=fOs1RnHK47wKyvrhiGugx7LGUwfr2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003001d72a23$e803bce0$b80b36a0$@rainier66.com>

 



Subject: Re: [ExI] I Can't Stop Looking At This $39, 000 Louis Vuitton Airplane Bag

 

On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 at 18:29, John Grigg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

It must be seen to be believed... Where would this actually sell? Perhaps Russia?

 

https://jalopnik.com/i-cant-stop-looking-at-this-39-000-louis-vuitton-airpl-1846611907

 

 

 

 

John beware of April fool jokes.

 

spike

 

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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 14:04:39 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 22:04:39 +0800
Subject: [ExI] I Can't Stop Looking At This $39,
 000 Louis Vuitton Airplane Bag
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy3AH0BD-gMUmxB=fOs1RnHK47wKyvrhiGugx7LGUwfr2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3_R61vqD7uvH=9bgb-BETi8fko1RMu5k+BmFrvTb7jGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGfkSy3AH0BD-gMUmxB=fOs1RnHK47wKyvrhiGugx7LGUwfr2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3wJoZjnu3QgXMVzJSfUtDJ-ngxhv6sqm_nB4dv9hmtiA@mail.gmail.com>

About a year ago I bought from a department store in the Philippines, a $3
watch that looks sharp and has served me just fine. Years ago I had a $300
watch that was a malfunctioning headache! Lol

Back in Arizona there was a local company that made beautiful watches from
wood and charged $100 for them. It seems a fairly reasonable price compared
to 300,000 Euros....

John

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 5:07 PM ddraig--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 at 18:29, John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> It must be seen to be believed... Where would this actually sell? Perhaps
>> Russia?
>>
>>
>> https://jalopnik.com/i-cant-stop-looking-at-this-39-000-louis-vuitton-airpl-1846611907
>>
>
> When I was in Munich a couple of years ago I saw a couple of 300,000 euro
> watches.  That was impressive. What was even more impressive was how
> completely ugly they were.
>
> Dwayne
> --
>   ddraig at pobox.com              ddraigbot / NSO / Connery
>          ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
>                    http://fav.me/dqkgpd
> <http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg>
> our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 15:19:03 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:19:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I Can't Stop Looking At This $39,
 000 Louis Vuitton Airplane Bag
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3_R61vqD7uvH=9bgb-BETi8fko1RMu5k+BmFrvTb7jGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3_R61vqD7uvH=9bgb-BETi8fko1RMu5k+BmFrvTb7jGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRYMHcr6uj-F39BVBaiF8jCE5y0s82YXZZQAa2wUbEu5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 1:25 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It must be seen to be believed... Where would this actually sell? Perhaps
> Russia?
>
>
> https://jalopnik.com/i-cant-stop-looking-at-this-39-000-louis-vuitton-airpl-1846611907
>

This kind of thing strikes me as, "I had this one rich friend who was
willing to pay for all the design labor and other work to make the first
prototype unit - so now that that's done, I'll be fair and charge the same
price for anyone else who wants one."  It doesn't really matter if more
sell, though some with far more money than sense may well buy one if they
think it seems fashionable - especially for a short time, before the trend
washes past.

Which is to say, it's not for people like you and me, who have more
appreciation of lasting value.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Apr  5 15:33:12 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:33:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Most_of_the_World_Has_a_Simple_Vaccine_Request?=
	=?utf-8?q?=2E_America_Isn=E2=80=99t_Listening=2E?=
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy13BKd7UKR7vvaeD4jTDawgsR_S34BpF6sner3Euwb3mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy13BKd7UKR7vvaeD4jTDawgsR_S34BpF6sner3Euwb3mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSUjmNunKSo0YBzgY0m=TeKYSpj=EmTimg1ybaYv_qAiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Uh huh.  This is easily "national emergency" level.  If those other nations
actually had the ability to stand up manufacture if not for patents, why
haven't they said, "We're temporarily suspending the patent within our
nation BECAUSE OUR PEOPLE ARE DYING OTHERWISE; we'll figure out the
financing and payment later, once OUR PEOPLE ARE NO LONGER DYING"?  I
suspect there's more than just waiving the patents that would be needed -
something that would actually take some resources, which resources are
currently being put toward vaccine manufacture.

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 1:32 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Nations across the world are demanding the right to manufacture their own
> Covid-19 vaccines. Why is the U.S. saying no?
> "Vaccine distribution is being spoken and written about as a zero-sum
> game because of the conditions of artificial scarcity that our government
> has created and is presently enforcing. If more Americans actually knew the
> substance of the requests being made by other nations, they?d have no
> reason to worry about losing any of ?our? vaccine doses. Instead, they
> would understand that the only thing at risk?and only temporarily at
> that?are some potential future profits of Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, and
> the like. It?s hard to believe many of them would side with our
> government?s position on the matter. The lack of interest by the American
> media means we?ll never get to find out."
>
>
> https://newrepublic.com/article/161704/global-vaccine-shortage-intellectual-property
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 00:12:59 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 20:12:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Brakeless car
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgzG=ZEH6YyjaBy0fRYnnFOsa=npM9wBhHBKwhR-MZU9A@mail.gmail.com>

In my idle musings about technology I came up with the following idea:

Instead of having a parking brake, use independent steering of all car
wheels to put the wheels at angles to each other, preventing movement just
like brakes but without wasting resources on carrying around a dedicated
brake system.

Of course, you need independent steering of all wheels for better
maneuverability anyway.

Talking about dream cars: Imagine an eight-wheeled single passenger car.
Each wheel is a separately steerable propulsion pod with its own electric
motor and active electromagnetic (or pneumatic) suspension. You need eight
wheels for more traction and you need more traction for higher speed and
better cornering. The total power in these 8 motors would be probably
around 3 - 4 thousand HP. Electricity would be provided by the combination
of a supercapacitor, battery and a gasoline turbine. The supercapacitor
would have the power density needed for maximum acceleration, and for
storing all the energy collected during maximum regenerative electric
braking. The car would have no dedicated brake system at all. The battery
would have just enough capacity for a few miles of spirited driving. The
turbine would provide range.

The propulsion pods would each have vacuum bells enclosing the wheel and a
system of fans capable of generating downforce at standstill and during
driving, independently addressable at each wheel. Insane individually
addressable downforce over 8 wheels would allow insane acceleration,
deceleration and cornering.

The passenger cabin would have no windows and would be fully enclosed in
carbon fiber and titanium with an internal air supply and insulation to
survive crashes and fires. There would be a powered deceleration seat
inside which in case of impending crash would actively move away from the
expected impact side and then during impact it would slide in a controlled
manner at minus 50 to 100 g, thus extending the deceleration distance for
the passenger's body.

Add full self driving capability and the car would run sub-four-minute
Nurburgring times, would be safer than any car currently in production and
would still be fun to drive to the grocery store while costing as much to
run as a Model 3.

I need to call Elon to start working on this project.

Rafal
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 10:12:21 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:12:21 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Soviet TV version of Lord of the Rings rediscovered after 30
 years
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>

How cool!  :  )

"A Soviet television adaptation of The Lord of the Rings
<https://www.theguardian.com/film/lord-of-the-rings> thought to have been
lost to time was rediscovered and posted on YouTube last week, delighting
Russian-language fans of JRR Tolkien.

The 1991 made-for-TV film, Khraniteli, based on Tolkien?s The Fellowship of
the Ring, is the only adaptation of his Lord of the Rings trilogy believed
to have been made in the Soviet Union.

Aired 10 years before the release of the first instalment of Peter
Jackson?s movie trilogy, the low-budget film appears ripped from another
age: the costumes and sets are rudimentary, the special effects are
ludicrous, and many of the scenes look more like a theatre production than
a feature-length film.

The score, composed by Andrei Romanov of the rock band Akvarium, also lends
a distinctly Soviet ambience to the production, which was reportedly aired
just once on television before disappearing into the archives of Leningrad
Television."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/05/soviet-tv-version-lord-of-the-rings-rediscovered-after-30-years
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 15:35:40 2021
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 09:35:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Soviet TV version of Lord of the Rings rediscovered after
 30 years
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQgtAs=0DmZ_QNVLPDH1EVdPZb7t+pBsiiHWN6Ffu9=KA@mail.gmail.com>

It reminds me of Greek theatre in a way.

They never let limitations on budget or personnel limit what they wanted to
put on stage.

"Ok, the script calls for Zeus to open up several light-years wide rifts in
the fabric of space and time and literally flood the entire Local Group
with heavenly waters".
"Cool, what are our resources?"
"Fifteen actors, five of whom can sing, and ten square feet of plywood."
"Awesome, put the singers in the Chorus, and let's do this!"

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:10 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> How cool!  :  )
>
> "A Soviet television adaptation of The Lord of the Rings
> <https://www.theguardian.com/film/lord-of-the-rings> thought to have been
> lost to time was rediscovered and posted on YouTube last week, delighting
> Russian-language fans of JRR Tolkien.
>
> The 1991 made-for-TV film, Khraniteli, based on Tolkien?s The Fellowship
> of the Ring, is the only adaptation of his Lord of the Rings trilogy
> believed to have been made in the Soviet Union.
>
> Aired 10 years before the release of the first instalment of Peter
> Jackson?s movie trilogy, the low-budget film appears ripped from another
> age: the costumes and sets are rudimentary, the special effects are
> ludicrous, and many of the scenes look more like a theatre production than
> a feature-length film.
>
> The score, composed by Andrei Romanov of the rock band Akvarium, also
> lends a distinctly Soviet ambience to the production, which was reportedly
> aired just once on television before disappearing into the archives of
> Leningrad Television."
>
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/05/soviet-tv-version-lord-of-the-rings-rediscovered-after-30-years
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  6 17:14:34 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:14:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
Message-ID: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

The USA has a mixture of government policies, ranging from no restrictions
all the way up thru strict lockdowns and mask mandates, etc.

 

Here is how the USA is doing now:

 



 

Similar patterns and rates in Florida with no shutdowns since September, no
restrictions, lotsa travel both interstate and international, lotsa parties
(Florida is good at parties):

 



 

Michigan with strict lockdowns continuing no school and lotsa mandates, has
a new case rate per prole more than triple the USA average:

 



 

The new case rate per prole for the planet is similar to the US (and
Florida) rates, about a third of the Michigan rate and about triple the
California rate.  California has a mixture of policies administered at the
county level.  It is also good at parties, second only to Florida in that
sport.  It isn't clear at all that lockdowns are effective at reducing new
cases, but I can't imagine any reason why they would make it worse either.

 

This is all very puzzling.

 

spike

 

 

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From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Apr  6 17:36:42 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:36:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Soviet TV version of Lord of the Rings rediscovered after
 30 years
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55afa571-471d-6ae8-4c07-4a39ab08e3f0@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-06 03:12, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> The 1991 made-for-TV film, Khraniteli,
> based on Tolkien?s The Fellowship of the Ring, [...]

The title ??????????? appears to mean ?The Keepers?.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 18:36:27 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:36:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] challenging article/whole wheat?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaBGEKybO8UgBB-EhBpZBnGkqxcUVvGW_Nzq2zoKHmmNg@mail.gmail.com>

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2021/04/02/heres-what-whole-grain-actually-means-and-its-not-the-health-claim-youve-told-it-is/
?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 18:40:37 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:40:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] interesting book
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ_MhCRxP4DuzpHoFP8zHm9gAqG_9AZQcXhODN3+NfasQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://smile.amazon.com/Science-Left-Behind-Feel-Good-Anti-Scientific/dp/161039321X/ref=sr_1_1
?

Just bought it after reading the article I sent a few minutes ago.  Will
give a review in a week or so.

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 18:42:44 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:42:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, do you see any data separated into urban and rural?  bill w

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> The USA has a mixture of government policies, ranging from no restrictions
> all the way up thru strict lockdowns and mask mandates, etc.
>
>
>
> Here is how the USA is doing now:
>
>
>
>
>
> Similar patterns and rates in Florida with no shutdowns since September,
> no restrictions, lotsa travel both interstate and international, lotsa
> parties (Florida is good at parties):
>
>
>
>
>
> Michigan with strict lockdowns continuing no school and lotsa mandates,
> has a new case rate per prole more than triple the USA average:
>
>
>
>
>
> The new case rate per prole for the planet is similar to the US (and
> Florida) rates, about a third of the Michigan rate and about triple the
> California rate.  California has a mixture of policies administered at the
> county level.  It is also good at parties, second only to Florida in that
> sport.  It isn?t clear at all that lockdowns are effective at reducing new
> cases, but I can?t imagine any reason why they would make it worse either.
>
>
>
> This is all very puzzling.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  6 19:03:04 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:03:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 11:43 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

Spike, do you see any data separated into urban and rural?  bill w

 

No sure don?t, but that might cause more confusion than clarity.  Reasoning: there isn?t a clear distinction between those two, or if so, what is that distinction.  

 

Part of the question also is that some states do covid restrictions at the state level and some do them at the county level.  There are even some cities which claim the authority, both to add their own restrictions and to override the counties.  Then there are school districts which have the final call on whether or not to open.  It?s a complicated problem which doesn?t lend itself to simple observations.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 20:44:48 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:44:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>

 Reasoning: there isn?t a clear distinction between those two, or if so,
what is that distinction. Number of people encountered every day.  Number
of restaurants and bars    bill w

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 11:43 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
>
>
>
> Spike, do you see any data separated into urban and rural?  bill w
>
>
>
> No sure don?t, but that might cause more confusion than clarity.
> Reasoning: there isn?t a clear distinction between those two, or if so,
> what is that distinction.
>
>
>
> Part of the question also is that some states do covid restrictions at the
> state level and some do them at the county level.  There are even some
> cities which claim the authority, both to add their own restrictions and to
> override the counties.  Then there are school districts which have the
> final call on whether or not to open.  It?s a complicated problem which
> doesn?t lend itself to simple observations.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 20:55:54 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:55:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] photos from briefing@Nature.com
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZjVDcU9jUyAJ=DW+aCbViBHbOuNXfLWDRZ46cGtGP9=w@mail.gmail.com>

Tiny sea creatures, like the bony-eared assfish, and the hairy goosefish
(lots of scrolling)    bill w


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/science/blackwater-photography-fish-larvae.html
?
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  6 23:17:30 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 16:17:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 1:45 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

 Reasoning: there isn?t a clear distinction between those two, or if so, what is that distinction. Number of people encountered every day.  Number of restaurants and bars    bill w

 

 

Of course, but where to draw the line between urban and rural is arbitrary.  It doesn?t really deal with the rural dwellers who work in the city or go to bars and restaurants in the city.  Plenty of those around here.  It isn?t clear where extended suburbs fit into that model.  

 

I see no practical unambiguous way to distinguish between urban and rural.  If we tried, we might create a still-more complicated picture than we already have.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  6 23:44:17 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:44:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>

If we tried, we might create a still-more complicated picture than we
already have.



spike  Oh horrors!  A scientist like you is going to ignore data!  After a

year no one has been able to figure out much, including you.  bill w




On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 6:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 1:45 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
>
>
>
>  Reasoning: there isn?t a clear distinction between those two, or if so,
> what is that distinction. Number of people encountered every day.  Number
> of restaurants and bars    bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Of course, but where to draw the line between urban and rural is
> arbitrary.  It doesn?t really deal with the rural dwellers who work in the
> city or go to bars and restaurants in the city.  Plenty of those around
> here.  It isn?t clear where extended suburbs fit into that model.
>
>
>
> I see no practical unambiguous way to distinguish between urban and
> rural.  If we tried, we might create a still-more complicated picture than
> we already have.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 00:24:28 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:24:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 4:44 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

>>?If we tried, we might create a still-more complicated picture than we already have? spike

 

>?spike  Oh horrors!  A scientist like you is going to ignore data!  After a 

year no one has been able to figure out much, including you.  bill w

 

Ja.  We don?t want to ignore data, nor do we want to create suspect data which is as likely to be misleading as it is clarifying.  The reason I was so quick to refute the notion of attempting to distinguish between rural and urban is that we do not know how to distinguish between the two.  I do not even know which to call myself.  I live in a relatively low-density area, but I do business in the city and I go out to the wilderness on every occasion.  So which am I?  I don?t know.  If I don?t know, then no one else does either.

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 00:38:55 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 19:38:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYWCXJ_0rd7qkqcA1aTiDw2nwpLZndyCuP6_RB3m0TLtw@mail.gmail.com>

I seem to recall an aerial photo you sent me with the prices of the houses
on it.  I assumed that it was an area you lived in - correct?  If so you
are definitely urban.  Rural houses have much more distance between
houses.  This assumes that I know something about urban sociology (but I
don't)  bill w

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 7:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 4:44 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
>
>
>
> >>?If we tried, we might create a still-more complicated picture than we
> already have? spike
>
>
>
> >?spike  Oh horrors!  A scientist like you is going to ignore data!
> After a
>
> year no one has been able to figure out much, including you.  bill w
>
>
>
> Ja.  We don?t want to ignore data, nor do we want to create suspect data
> which is as likely to be misleading as it is clarifying.  The reason I was
> so quick to refute the notion of attempting to distinguish between rural
> and urban is that we do not know how to distinguish between the two.  I do
> not even know which to call myself.  I live in a relatively low-density
> area, but I do business in the city and I go out to the wilderness on every
> occasion.  So which am I?  I don?t know.  If I don?t know, then no one else
> does either.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 00:57:10 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:57:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYWCXJ_0rd7qkqcA1aTiDw2nwpLZndyCuP6_RB3m0TLtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYWCXJ_0rd7qkqcA1aTiDw2nwpLZndyCuP6_RB3m0TLtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:39 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

>?I seem to recall an aerial photo you sent me with the prices of the houses on it.  I assumed that it was an area you lived in - correct?  If so you are definitely urban.  Rural houses have much more distance between houses.  This assumes that I know something about urban sociology (but I don't)  bill w

 

Ja.  If here is urban, then most of the US population is urban.  What we need is to somehow divide the population down the middle, if that can be done.  But even that is very ambiguous, because people travel.  It isn?t the housing density that matters as much as the population density in the houses.  Many urbanites seldom go outdoors, but many rural dwellers travel every day to the city.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 01:06:04 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:06:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYWCXJ_0rd7qkqcA1aTiDw2nwpLZndyCuP6_RB3m0TLtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYsR8ZcoJdhtqY9vQ8BHt9VNieAXAaDDDPEO5T2qkVE7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Not trying to start a discussion, but the data on this link is
interesting.....

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/05/22/demographic-and-economic-trends-in-urban-suburban-and-rural-communities/

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 8:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:39 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
>
>
>
> >?I seem to recall an aerial photo you sent me with the prices of the
> houses on it.  I assumed that it was an area you lived in - correct?  If so
> you are definitely urban.  Rural houses have much more distance between
> houses.  This assumes that I know something about urban sociology (but I
> don't)  bill w
>
>
>
> Ja.  If here is urban, then most of the US population is urban.  What we
> need is to somehow divide the population down the middle, if that can be
> done.  But even that is very ambiguous, because people travel.  It isn?t
> the housing density that matters as much as the population density in the
> houses.  Many urbanites seldom go outdoors, but many rural dwellers travel
> every day to the city.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 01:54:16 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:54:16 +0800
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYsR8ZcoJdhtqY9vQ8BHt9VNieAXAaDDDPEO5T2qkVE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYWCXJ_0rd7qkqcA1aTiDw2nwpLZndyCuP6_RB3m0TLtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYsR8ZcoJdhtqY9vQ8BHt9VNieAXAaDDDPEO5T2qkVE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0nTDPNPTG4MRHcYa_qWfk5UYBAryvuWAaPRO=H8d_LNQ@mail.gmail.com>

When will President Biden create a federal mandate to have one set of
strict rules for the entire nation? This long-standing piecemeal approach
to containing the virus in America is ridiculous! I suppose the hope is
that when enough people are vaccinated, that the pandemic will finally go
away, or at least be ignorable.

John

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 9:09 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Not trying to start a discussion, but the data on this link is
> interesting.....
>
>
> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/05/22/demographic-and-economic-trends-in-urban-suburban-and-rural-communities/
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 8:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:39 PM
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
>>
>>
>>
>> >?I seem to recall an aerial photo you sent me with the prices of the
>> houses on it.  I assumed that it was an area you lived in - correct?  If so
>> you are definitely urban.  Rural houses have much more distance between
>> houses.  This assumes that I know something about urban sociology (but I
>> don't)  bill w
>>
>>
>>
>> Ja.  If here is urban, then most of the US population is urban.  What we
>> need is to somehow divide the population down the middle, if that can be
>> done.  But even that is very ambiguous, because people travel.  It isn?t
>> the housing density that matters as much as the population density in the
>> houses.  Many urbanites seldom go outdoors, but many rural dwellers travel
>> every day to the city.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 02:12:37 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:12:37 +0800
Subject: [ExI] I Can't Stop Looking At This $39,
 000 Louis Vuitton Airplane Bag
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRYMHcr6uj-F39BVBaiF8jCE5y0s82YXZZQAa2wUbEu5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3_R61vqD7uvH=9bgb-BETi8fko1RMu5k+BmFrvTb7jGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRYMHcr6uj-F39BVBaiF8jCE5y0s82YXZZQAa2wUbEu5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3+owegFVUpKt1k3NxZvoQMEvbFjx+AFJ1-os_RS0Q0ag@mail.gmail.com>

 Adrian Tymes wrote:
"Which is to say, it's not for people like you and me, who have more
appreciation of lasting value."

I must confess that if I were very wealthy, I would buy it as a joke, and
suspend it from the ceiling of my gaming room. But I would not mention the
price... Lol

John


On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 11:23 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 1:25 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> It must be seen to be believed... Where would this actually sell? Perhaps
>> Russia?
>>
>>
>> https://jalopnik.com/i-cant-stop-looking-at-this-39-000-louis-vuitton-airpl-1846611907
>>
>
> This kind of thing strikes me as, "I had this one rich friend who was
> willing to pay for all the design labor and other work to make the first
> prototype unit - so now that that's done, I'll be fair and charge the same
> price for anyone else who wants one."  It doesn't really matter if more
> sell, though some with far more money than sense may well buy one if they
> think it seems fashionable - especially for a short time, before the trend
> washes past.
>
> Which is to say, it's not for people like you and me, who have more
> appreciation of lasting value.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 02:16:07 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 19:16:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0nTDPNPTG4MRHcYa_qWfk5UYBAryvuWAaPRO=H8d_LNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYWCXJ_0rd7qkqcA1aTiDw2nwpLZndyCuP6_RB3m0TLtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYsR8ZcoJdhtqY9vQ8BHt9VNieAXAaDDDPEO5T2qkVE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy0nTDPNPTG4MRHcYa_qWfk5UYBAryvuWAaPRO=H8d_LNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01d72b53$f88e1520$e9aa3f60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

>?When will President Biden create a federal mandate to have one set of strict rules for the entire nation?

 

Never.  He would if he could.  He doesn?t have the authority to do that.  But Biden doesn?t create federal law.  Congress does.  Then the Supreme Court has to buy in.  So? to answer your question: never.

 

>?This long-standing piecemeal approach to containing the virus in America is ridiculous!

 

But trying to do anything at the national level is far more ridiculous and dangerous.  There are no possible rules that would work for both New York City and Wyoming.

 

As it turns out, that is a big enough challenge for states.  Well, too big actually.  California tried, but their attempt was mostly a failure.  They passed the authority on down to the counties.  That kinda approach mostly failed too.  For instance, if county rules are ignored, what then?  Consider the Tesla factory up the street.  The county demanded Musk shut it down.  He opened it up.  They weren?t going to risk pissing off their money cow.  So? the county backed down.  Elon kept turning out electric cars. 

 

At the county level, who has the authority to do anything to flagrant violators?  The sheriff?  She can?t enforce that which isn?t a law.  Only the state legislature can pass laws.  They didn?t.  So? there was no law, and still isn?t.

 

Law isn?t the way to go against disease in times when existing law isn?t being enforced. 

 

>I suppose the hope is that when enough people are vaccinated, that the pandemic will finally go away, or at least be ignorable.  John

 

We developed a bunch of new technologies to create vaccines and distribute them.  I got my vaccination today.  No side effects yet.

 

spike

 

 

 

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 9:09 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Not trying to start a discussion, but the data on this link is interesting.....

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/05/22/demographic-and-economic-trends-in-urban-suburban-and-rural-communities/

 

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 8:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:39 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> >
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

>?I seem to recall an aerial photo you sent me with the prices of the houses on it.  I assumed that it was an area you lived in - correct?  If so you are definitely urban.  Rural houses have much more distance between houses.  This assumes that I know something about urban sociology (but I don't)  bill w

 

Ja.  If here is urban, then most of the US population is urban.  What we need is to somehow divide the population down the middle, if that can be done.  But even that is very ambiguous, because people travel.  It isn?t the housing density that matters as much as the population density in the houses.  Many urbanites seldom go outdoors, but many rural dwellers travel every day to the city.

 

spike

 

 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 04:15:46 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:15:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <001f01d72b53$f88e1520$e9aa3f60$@rainier66.com>
References: <001f01d72b53$f88e1520$e9aa3f60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <9D60690F-8B18-4A48-B038-968453F92149@gmail.com>

Much of this discussion seems predicated on something like that ?if a state or region has stated policy X (with regard to COVID), then there?s a total or virtually royal compliance with policy X in said state or region.? I recall Spike agreeing with me weeks (or months?) ago that California?s stated policy wasn?t exactly followed by everyone in that state, especially not in red districts. Why presume that Florida is completely different here? (Add to this, some contacts in Florida ? as you the current agreement does not grant my handlers or me direct access to Florida ? have pointed out there are areas where people and businesses are more pro-distancing and pro-mask than in other areas.) There needs to be some means of figuring out levels of compliance before judging specific measures ? much less pointing out one place is better than another when one doesn?t know this level, no?

Regards,

Dan
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 04:48:02 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 00:48:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0nTDPNPTG4MRHcYa_qWfk5UYBAryvuWAaPRO=H8d_LNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
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 <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhhF=ymw4d_Uh-gDXPmr4RF42vSN1YnADD6=nHNggfofw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 9:52 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> When will President Biden create a federal mandate to have one set of
> strict rules for the entire nation? This long-standing piecemeal approach
> to containing the virus in America is ridiculous!
>

### There is no reason to expect that an administration figureheaded by a
demented old man would pick the best rules for disease prevention, in fact,
it is very unlikely that they would be anywhere close to the optimum rules.
Having the same "strict" rules for the entire nation would only lock in bad
policies, with no room for experimentation and it would bring down
successful states (e.g. Florida) to the level of basket cases.
--------------------------



> I suppose the hope is that when enough people are vaccinated, that the
> pandemic will finally go away, or at least be ignorable.
>
> ### It is ignorable now and it was always ignorable, for about 90% of the
population who were never at any significant risk from this disease.

Rafal
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 04:55:04 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:55:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <9D60690F-8B18-4A48-B038-968453F92149@gmail.com>
References: <001f01d72b53$f88e1520$e9aa3f60$@rainier66.com>
 <9D60690F-8B18-4A48-B038-968453F92149@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002c01d72b6a$2d1270f0$873752d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

>?Much of this discussion seems predicated on something like that ?if a state or region has stated policy X (with regard to COVID), then there?s a total or virtually royal compliance with policy X in said state or region.? 

 

Policy is something they can talk about all they want.  Citizens are obligated to follow law, as is government.

 

>?I recall Spike agreeing with me weeks (or months?) ago that California?s stated policy wasn?t exactly followed by everyone in that state, especially not in red districts?

 

Ja.  Red districts did better than the blue districts, even when under similar guidelines, but it isn?t clear why exactly.  I would speculate that districts that are more tightly packed are more blue and the flu travels better where people are more tightly packed.  But we don?t really know for sure if the red/blue apparent correlation with higher covid rates are really two effects of the same cause.  I suspect that?s it.

 

>?Why presume that Florida is completely different here?

 

It isn?t different here.

 

>? There needs to be some means of figuring out levels of compliance before judging specific measures ? much less pointing out one place is better than another when one doesn?t know this level, no?  Regards, Dan

 

Ja, we don?t really know, even after all this time.  We do know only a few things: sending infected people into nursing homes was a fatal mistake.  New Jersey and New York both did that and are among the hardest-hit jurisdictions in the world.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 05:06:40 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:06:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhhF=ymw4d_Uh-gDXPmr4RF42vSN1YnADD6=nHNggfofw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYWCXJ_0rd7qkqcA1aTiDw2nwpLZndyCuP6_RB3m0TLtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYsR8ZcoJdhtqY9vQ8BHt9VNieAXAaDDDPEO5T2qkVE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAAc1gFhhF=ymw4d_Uh-gDXPmr4RF42vSN1YnADD6=nHNggfofw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801d72b6b$cb9ba830$62d2f890$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
?
Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

 

 

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 9:52 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

When will President Biden create a federal mandate to have one set of strict rules for the entire nation? This long-standing piecemeal approach to containing the virus in America is ridiculous!

 

### There is no reason to expect that an administration figureheaded by a demented old man would pick the best rules for disease prevention, in fact, it is very unlikely that they would be anywhere close to the optimum rules. Having the same "strict" rules for the entire nation would only lock in bad policies, with no room for experimentation and it would bring down successful states (e.g. Florida) to the level of basket cases. Rafal 

 

--------------------------

 

 

This is an understatement.  If the smartest person on the planet (in the field of immunology and virology) were to be given absolute authority to create law (not guidelines, law) for the entire USA, that person would immediately recognize that this cannot be done.  There is no single rule or law that comes close to optimizing strategy for some areas were hammered and others were nearly untouched.  

 

Other states cannot be dragged down to the level of the states which didn?t have enough sense to recognize that sending infected patients into nursing homes would kill people.  New York (specifically) made policies that killed thousands.  Then they tried to cover it up, which killed perhaps thousands more.

 

Fortunately, in the USA, we are protected from the failure mode of governmental incompetence (and possibly malice) by intentionally and strictly limiting the power of government at all levels.

spike

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 05:15:04 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:15:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <002c01d72b6a$2d1270f0$873752d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002c01d72b6a$2d1270f0$873752d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <0CD47E48-04D8-464D-9FA5-456986F1F1F1@gmail.com>

On Apr 6, 2021, at 9:58 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
> 
> >?Much of this discussion seems predicated on something like that ?if a state or region has stated policy X (with regard to COVID), then there?s a total or virtually royal compliance with policy X in said state or region.?
> 
> Policy is something they can talk about all they want.  Citizens are obligated to follow law, as is government.
> 

Obligated or not, compliance is always another matter. I presume you have speed limits posted in your area. What?s the compliance rate with these? Can one presume that merely because the speed limit posted is X that every vehicle or enough vehicles never exceed X? 

(Also, it?s fanciful to say ?citizens? above. COVID policies and many other apply to non-citizens as well. And it?d be a very stupid infectious disease policy if it only applies to subjects ? er, citizens and their overlords ? er, those in government.)

> >?I recall Spike agreeing with me weeks (or months?) ago that California?s stated policy wasn?t exactly followed by everyone in that state, especially not in red districts?
> 
> Ja.  Red districts did better than the blue districts, even when under similar guidelines, but it isn?t clear why exactly.  I would speculate that districts that are more tightly packed are more blue and the flu travels better where people are more tightly packed.  But we don?t really know for sure if the red/blue apparent correlation with higher covid rates are really two effects of the same cause.  I suspect that?s it. 
> 
> >?Why presume that Florida is completely different here?
> 
> It isn?t different here.
> 
> >? There needs to be some means of figuring out levels of compliance before judging specific measures ? much less pointing out one place is better than another when one doesn?t know this level, no?  Regards, Dan
> 
> Ja, we don?t really know, even after all this time.  We do know only a few things: sending infected people into nursing homes was a fatal mistake.  New Jersey and New York both did that and are among the hardest-hit jurisdictions in the world.
> 
They also have very high population densities for the US, no?

Regards,

Dan
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 05:16:59 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:16:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <004801d72b6b$cb9ba830$62d2f890$@rainier66.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYsR8ZcoJdhtqY9vQ8BHt9VNieAXAaDDDPEO5T2qkVE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <005701d72b6d$3ce1a750$b6a4f5f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Subject: RE: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat
?
Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

 

>?Other states cannot be dragged down to the level of the states which didn?t have enough sense to recognize that sending infected patients into nursing homes would kill people.  New York (specifically) made policies that killed thousands.  Then they tried to cover it up, which killed perhaps thousands more?.spike

 

 

 

Clarification for our friends outside the USA: the New York governor attempted to take declining covid-patients out of the nursing homes in time to get them to the hospital before they perished.  This would cause the covid death statistics in nursing homes to be reduced while the hospital fatality statistics to be inflated.  

 

It really matters where the virus was caught.  Reasoning: making the nursing home appear safer than it really is and the hospital appear more dangerous would encourage clients to go to the dangerous nursing home, resulting in increased fatalities, while avoiding the less dangerous hospital, causing them to perish from lack of health care.

 

We are told that the cover-up was not done in order to kill additional people however.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 05:29:27 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 22:29:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <0CD47E48-04D8-464D-9FA5-456986F1F1F1@gmail.com>
References: <002c01d72b6a$2d1270f0$873752d0$@rainier66.com>
 <0CD47E48-04D8-464D-9FA5-456986F1F1F1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901d72b6e$fa76de10$ef649a30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat



 

>?Obligated or not, compliance is always another matter. I presume you have speed limits posted in your area. What?s the compliance rate with these? Can one presume that merely because the speed limit posted is X that every vehicle or enough vehicles never exceed X? 

 

Ja of course.  It is improper to compare covid-related policy to speed limits however, for speed limits are law, passed by legislatures.  As far as I know, no state legislatures anywhere passed covid law.  They handed that back to the governor, who does not have the authority to make law.

 





>>?New Jersey and New York both did that and are among the hardest-hit jurisdictions in the world.

>?They also have very high population densities for the US, no?

Regards,  Dan

 

 

Ja, which is what leads me to think the apparent correlation is really two effects of the same cause.

 

This is a good point for New York, for that state is a huge metropolis with the rest of it generally rural.  Check Google maps street view and see it.  Upstate New York is country roads with not much on them.  OK, suppose a governor wants to make rules that will work for both the city and the rest of the state.  How?  Suggestions: don?t send known-infected patients into nursing homes, and don?t intentionally distort fatality statistics.

 

spike

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 06:59:35 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 23:59:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <000901d72b6e$fa76de10$ef649a30$@rainier66.com>
References: <000901d72b6e$fa76de10$ef649a30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <FD639717-8732-44D4-90B2-6301323E8434@gmail.com>

On Apr 6, 2021, at 10:31 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
> 
>  
> >?Obligated or not, compliance is always another matter. I presume you have speed limits posted in your area. What?s the compliance rate with these? Can one presume that merely because the speed limit posted is X that every vehicle or enough vehicles never exceed X? 
>  
> Ja of course.  It is improper to compare covid-related policy to speed limits however, for speed limits are law, passed by legislatures.  As far as I know, no state legislatures anywhere passed covid law.  They handed that back to the governor, who does not have the authority to make law.

This is a species distinction. First, I mentioned policy ? not law. Policy in this regard can be more inclusive. But let?s leave that aside. You bring up law as if that?s significant, but law is important because why? Because ?citizens? are obligated to follow law? But what does this matter when I pointed out there are plenty of laws in your sense ? I mean laws passed by an authority you accept ? that don?t have total or near total compliance? I used speed limits simply because they?re an obvious example. (There?s a reason there are hoards of enforcers out there: people don?t comply simply because a law is passed by a process you accept ? even one they accept. Heck, government agents often don?t comply with the law. It?s fantasy to believe that because something is a law that it will be obeyed. Were merely being a law enough to compel obedience, what need for cops and myriad other agents checking for noncompliance?)

Mask and distancing policies are much the same. You disagree? Well, let?s say the legislatures all got together and passed laws mandating masks and distancing. Do you believe all the people across the states would suddenly follow such mandates? Or do you think, as I do, that compliance would vary both by location and likely by where enforcement was dependable? In other words, much like speed limits. (Add to this, penalties would likely depend on the enforcers? whims and who did the violating.)

My point was merely that you have areas where there are mask mandates and the like ? call them what you will ? but what people do doesn?t always match the stated policy. (This would be exactly the same if the constitution you worship were amended to mandate masks, etc. for everyone: some people would simply not comply and many of them would face little penalty for compliance even if, say, said amendment mandates the severe penalties for noncompliance.)

> >>?New Jersey and New York both did that and are among the hardest-hit jurisdictions in the world.
> >?They also have very high population densities for the US, no?
> Regards,  Dan
>  
>  
> Ja, which is what leads me to think the apparent correlation is really two effects of the same cause.
>  
> This is a good point for New York, for that state is a huge metropolis with the rest of it generally rural.  Check Google maps street view and see it.  Upstate New York is country roads with not much on them.  OK, suppose a governor wants to make rules that will work for both the city and the rest of the state.  How?  Suggestions: don?t send known-infected patients into nursing homes, and don?t intentionally distort fatality statistics.

I?m aware. And NJ has areas with very low population, but both states have some of the highest concentrations ? in their densely populated regions ? of people in the nation. That?s all I meant. So, all else being equal, I?d expect COVID cases to be higher in those places.

Regards,

Dan
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 08:37:31 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:37:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Lockdowns For The Win!
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFia4koq2b3zoHE+OBva=ojShy4sU9TcrsmF7CcNXe1U+A@mail.gmail.com>

Many of you may have noted my very negative opinion of the Wuhan virus
lockdowns right from the start of the current debacle. This opinion has not
changed but on the other hand I believe now that the Covid pandemic may be
the last pandemic where lockdowns were a bad idea.

What has changed last year is the wide implementation of mRNA vaccines.
While the technology existed previously, the Wuhan virus crisis catalyzed
the creation of massive production capacity and led to the elimination of
some of the bureaucratic obstacles to fast mass deployment of new vaccines.
As a result it should be possible to develop and mass-deploy vaccines for
almost any new infectious agent within months of it being sequenced. With
continued refinement of the process it might be possible to produce
vaccines without the need for formal clinical testing and have them
deployed in 1 - 2 weeks after an outbreak, including mass vaccinations in
initial outbreak areas, potentially preventing worldwide spread.

This is a completely new situation. mRNA vaccines are so much easier to
develop and produce that there is a qualitative difference in their
potential impact. Where classical methods are so slow that vaccines
inevitably were too little too late, mRNA vaccines could make a major
difference early on.

This means that true social distancing for a short time (not the laughable
6 foot distancing and not the laughable masking mandates) could very well
tide the vulnerable population over until a vaccine is available.

Again, this is a completely new situation. Since effective social
distancing (which is the one health policy intervention that immediately
stops disease spread) is very costly and the cost is roughly proportional
to the duration of distancing, the cost/benefit ratio of social distancing
quickly becomes unfavorable as time goes by. In previous pandemics
society-wide social distancing would have a uniformly negative net effect
since it could only shift morbidity and mortality in time but not prevent
it. If there is no cure on the horizon, it does not make sense to
quarantine yourself, unless you hope to make it through until herd immunity
is reached - but of course if everybody is in quarantine, there is no herd
immunity and you would have to quarantine forever, or until you run out of
food. Clearly not a viable social strategy for survival.

However, if a cure is more or less guaranteed in a few weeks, the calculus
is different - you would gain net benefit from quarantine despite its
financial and social cost. Government-imposed lockdowns would be still
wrong and immoral but individual quarantine would make great sense.

So maybe in the near future we will have routine brief mass-quarantines as
the rational response to new pathogens.

Rafal
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 12:40:55 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 05:40:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Lockdowns For The Win!
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFia4koq2b3zoHE+OBva=ojShy4sU9TcrsmF7CcNXe1U+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFia4koq2b3zoHE+OBva=ojShy4sU9TcrsmF7CcNXe1U+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006c01d72bab$412e6300$c38b2900$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat

Subject: [ExI] Lockdowns For The Win!

 

>?Many of you may have noted my very negative opinion of the Wuhan virus lockdowns right from the start of the current debacle. ?

So maybe in the near future we will have routine brief mass-quarantines as the rational response to new pathogens.

 

Rafal

 

 

 

Excellent Rafal!  Thanks for that.  I am filled with a new hope.  Your comments have the ring of truth.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 14:39:02 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:39:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <001f01d72b53$f88e1520$e9aa3f60$@rainier66.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYOmuS_UvP68tx1zavv_Dab9B=oAOb3=OQT3CE30MwGVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbdiX6svjaV-+1GXY8aBnbuBPRGfdRoLCTcVjDgs7JfcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaG9fNuWJJZ_ktAZDtHRfvo5roYSzfoKAx6iOmK=TohSQ@mail.gmail.com>

 I got my vaccination today.  No side effects yet.



spike     I had no side effects after my second shot, but my wife got a
migraine after her second.  (she is prone to headaches - I am not)   bill w

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 9:25 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
>
>
>
> >?When will President Biden create a federal mandate to have one set of
> strict rules for the entire nation?
>
>
>
> Never.  He would if he could.  He doesn?t have the authority to do that.
> But Biden doesn?t create federal law.  Congress does.  Then the Supreme
> Court has to buy in.  So? to answer your question: never.
>
>
>
> >?This long-standing piecemeal approach to containing the virus in
> America is ridiculous!
>
>
>
> But trying to do anything at the national level is far more ridiculous and
> dangerous.  There are no possible rules that would work for both New York
> City and Wyoming.
>
>
>
> As it turns out, that is a big enough challenge for states.  Well, too big
> actually.  California tried, but their attempt was mostly a failure.  They
> passed the authority on down to the counties.  That kinda approach mostly
> failed too.  For instance, if county rules are ignored, what then?
> Consider the Tesla factory up the street.  The county demanded Musk shut it
> down.  He opened it up.  They weren?t going to risk pissing off their money
> cow.  So? the county backed down.  Elon kept turning out electric cars.
>
>
>
> At the county level, who has the authority to do anything to flagrant
> violators?  The sheriff?  She can?t enforce that which isn?t a law.  Only
> the state legislature can pass laws.  They didn?t.  So? there was no law,
> and still isn?t.
>
>
>
> Law isn?t the way to go against disease in times when existing law isn?t
> being enforced.
>
>
>
> >I suppose the hope is that when enough people are vaccinated, that the
> pandemic will finally go away, or at least be ignorable.  John
>
>
>
> We developed a bunch of new technologies to create vaccines and distribute
> them.  I got my vaccination today.  No side effects yet.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 9:09 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Not trying to start a discussion, but the data on this link is
> interesting.....
>
>
>
>
> https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/05/22/demographic-and-economic-trends-in-urban-suburban-and-rural-communities/
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 8:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:39 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
>
>
>
> >?I seem to recall an aerial photo you sent me with the prices of the
> houses on it.  I assumed that it was an area you lived in - correct?  If so
> you are definitely urban.  Rural houses have much more distance between
> houses.  This assumes that I know something about urban sociology (but I
> don't)  bill w
>
>
>
> Ja.  If here is urban, then most of the US population is urban.  What we
> need is to somehow divide the population down the middle, if that can be
> done.  But even that is very ambiguous, because people travel.  It isn?t
> the housing density that matters as much as the population density in the
> houses.  Many urbanites seldom go outdoors, but many rural dwellers travel
> every day to the city.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 17:09:01 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:09:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaG9fNuWJJZ_ktAZDtHRfvo5roYSzfoKAx6iOmK=TohSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
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 <004601d72b44$5f69f8f0$1e3dead0$@rainier66.com>
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 <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYsR8ZcoJdhtqY9vQ8BHt9VNieAXAaDDDPEO5T2qkVE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEaG9fNuWJJZ_ktAZDtHRfvo5roYSzfoKAx6iOmK=TohSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002901d72bd0$b4cdb110$1e691330$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

 >>?I got my vaccination today.  No side effects yet.

 

>?spike     I had no side effects after my second shot, but my wife got a migraine after her second.  (she is prone to headaches - I am not)   bill w

 

 

 

I don?t see the second dose as being worthwhile.  First one yes, second one no.  One and done, regardless of which you get.  The first one gets you 90% of the immunity for half the risk and bother.

I was really disappointed however: I was told that vaccine would embed nanochips in my brain which would connect me to the internet, allowing George Soros to do mind control on me, that sorta thing.  I don?t feel a bit smarter.  I want my mind control chips.

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 17:44:16 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:44:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <002901d72bd0$b4cdb110$1e691330$@rainier66.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
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 <002901d72bd0$b4cdb110$1e691330$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEarECgHs06VqxCaH_nWbE_hgXg=ZthqNdfB3ZGbN7o3ig@mail.gmail.com>

Chips?  No, you need something bigger.  From time to time a 2 x 4 upside
your head will straighten you out.   bill w

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 12:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
>
>
>
>  >>?I got my vaccination today.  No side effects yet.
>
>
>
> >?spike     I had no side effects after my second shot, but my wife got a
> migraine after her second.  (she is prone to headaches - I am not)   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don?t see the second dose as being worthwhile.  First one yes, second
> one no.  One and done, regardless of which you get.  The first one gets you
> 90% of the immunity for half the risk and bother.
>
> I was really disappointed however: I was told that vaccine would embed
> nanochips in my brain which would connect me to the internet, allowing
> George Soros to do mind control on me, that sorta thing.  I don?t feel a
> bit smarter.  I want my mind control chips.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 17:48:00 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:48:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEarECgHs06VqxCaH_nWbE_hgXg=ZthqNdfB3ZGbN7o3ig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEZpjAX5u+srfV4z66kG-Y4EbAGEVyQZJRvMM_ZCf36B1g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYWCXJ_0rd7qkqcA1aTiDw2nwpLZndyCuP6_RB3m0TLtw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYsR8ZcoJdhtqY9vQ8BHt9VNieAXAaDDDPEO5T2qkVE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <001f01d72b53$f88e1520$e9aa3f60$@rainier66.com>
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 <002901d72bd0$b4cdb110$1e691330$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEarECgHs06VqxCaH_nWbE_hgXg=ZthqNdfB3ZGbN7o3ig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRwxUDwSx13S9u4du_a=BstRG3uBBpSPr6wVBNaAs_MDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 10:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Chips?  No, you need something bigger.  From time to time a 2 x 4 upside
> your head will straighten you out.   bill w
>

Moore's Law doesn't apply to that?
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 17:48:29 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:48:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <FD639717-8732-44D4-90B2-6301323E8434@gmail.com>
References: <000901d72b6e$fa76de10$ef649a30$@rainier66.com>
 <FD639717-8732-44D4-90B2-6301323E8434@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004301d72bd6$389566f0$a9c034d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat



>?This would be exactly the same if the constitution you worship?

 

Wording it like this almost makes it sound like you don?t worship the constitution.  It is the only thing standing between us and complete tyranny.  It is the only thing keeping government in check.

 

>? some people would simply not comply and many of them would face little penalty for compliance even if, say, said amendment mandates the severe penalties for noncompliance?

 

The legislature wouldn?t even bother trying to get 38 states to play along with creating such an amendment.  Without a law, there can be no penalty for non-compliance.  Without legislatures passing it, there is no law.  Perhaps it will eventually dawn on the politicians that covid is not effectively controlled with law, it is effectively controlled by medical science.  It is not a good opportunity to seize additional power, is not a crisis going to waste, it is only a crisis.

 

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 18:07:47 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 11:07:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRwxUDwSx13S9u4du_a=BstRG3uBBpSPr6wVBNaAs_MDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008d01d72b08$51479f20$f3d6dd60$@rainier66.com>
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 <00a601d72b17$79418c20$6bc4a460$@rainier66.com>
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 <003101d72b3b$04c71620$0e554260$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYsR8ZcoJdhtqY9vQ8BHt9VNieAXAaDDDPEO5T2qkVE7Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <005401d72bd8$eae670e0$c0b352a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates

 

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 10:46 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Chips?  No, you need something bigger.  From time to time a 2 x 4 upside your head will straighten you out.   bill w

 

>?Moore's Law doesn't apply to that? 

 

 

 

It does.  Now the 2x4 upside my head is smaller than a toothpick and costs less than a penny.

 

spike

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From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Apr  6 17:38:40 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:38:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Soviet TV version of Lord of the Rings rediscovered after
 30 years
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4d80738d-5ae5-2f9e-706e-a4af8bca6798@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-06 03:12, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> The 1991 made-for-TV film, Khraniteli,
> based on Tolkien?s The Fellowship of the Ring, [...]

The title ??????????? appears to mean ?The Keepers?.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 19:32:50 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:32:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
Message-ID: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Something Rafal posted has been rattling around in my head: the cost of the shutdown continues to accumulate as long as it is in effect.

 

We have some notion that we can stay shut down until it is safe to re-open, but we really can?t.  That isn?t right.  Had we known we would still be in this situation a year ago, most governors would not have opted to shut down at all.  At some point, the cost exceeds the value.  We are way past the breakeven point and are deep into net loss.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 19:57:17 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 14:57:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb2tmTOCHQC9QdUTbT3Bf9_0NEL=0EvJAD8nhGoW+cR9Q@mail.gmail.com>

 At some point, the cost exceeds the value.  We are way past the breakeven
point and are deep into net loss.

spike

 And how many lives have been saved?  No one is shutting down things to
ruin the economy.  Impossible to measure, I'll grant you that.  But that
has to be the other side of the equation.  People are still catching it and
some are dying.  Keep that in mind.  How much damage to the economy is
worth it to save a life?  Theoretically.  Does anyone know what variables
are being used to make these mask and shutdown decisions?  Who is measuring
the effects?  Are they making decisions based on data? What data?  Does
shutting down even work?   Somebody has to know these things so they can
make recommendations.  I see none of the above in the news - just the
actions to open up or close down.  bill w

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 2:35 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Something Rafal posted has been rattling around in my head: the cost of
> the shutdown continues to accumulate as long as it is in effect.
>
>
>
> We have some notion that we can stay shut down until it is safe to
> re-open, but we really can?t.  That isn?t right.  Had we known we would
> still be in this situation a year ago, most governors would not have opted
> to shut down at all.  At some point, the cost exceeds the value.  We are
> way past the breakeven point and are deep into net loss.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 21:31:52 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 14:31:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <004301d72bd6$389566f0$a9c034d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004301d72bd6$389566f0$a9c034d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <0E64F85D-CC9E-4834-8E09-AF904689F619@gmail.com>

On Apr 7, 2021, at 11:03 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:  
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
> 
> >?This would be exactly the same if the constitution you worship?
>  
> Wording it like this almost makes it sound like you don?t worship the constitution.

I?ve made my position clear here over the years. You rarely directly respond when I critique the ?awe of constitution? line. 

> It is the only thing standing between us and complete tyranny.  It is the only thing keeping government in check.

No, it isn?t. What keeps tyranny in check anywhere is not a piece of paper. It?s a wider cultural norms in society (or people acting on those norms) and various factions in the ruling class vying against each other. At best, a constitution either reflects that wider culture and the power dynamics (think of why the mostly unwritten English constitution worked to some extent: wider culture and it reflected the the vying between commons, aristocrats, and royals ? a rivalry already in place not one created by some committee). When it doesn?t reflect that then it doesn?t matter... Or as Lysander Spooner put it:

?But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it.?

Still not convinced. The US Constitution did little to restrain taking land from indigenous people. It was simply ignored. The same document did not restrain the Federalist Party when it decided to abrogate free speech. It wasn?t until the Federalists were out of power that their anti-speech laws were rescinded. If you fantasy version of reality worked, the Cherokee might still be living in the Southeast and the Federalists would?ve never passed the Sedition Act much less would anyone have been jailed or fined under it.

> >? some people would simply not comply and many of them would face little penalty for compliance even if, say, said amendment mandates the severe penalties for noncompliance?
>  
> The legislature wouldn?t even bother trying to get 38 states to play along with creating such an amendment.  Without a law, there can be no penalty for non-compliance.  Without legislatures passing it, there is no law.  Perhaps it will eventually dawn on the politicians that covid is not effectively controlled with law, it is effectively controlled by medical science.  It is not a good opportunity to seize additional power, is not a crisis going to waste, it is only a crisis.

Let?s try this again. There are speed limits, right? Even were there a national speed limit enshrined in a constitutional amendment, do you seriously believe that everyone would suddenly follow the speed limit at all times never ever going over when, say, they felt they could get away with it? If you seriously do, then I?m sorry I?ll exit this particular discussion because I?m needed back on Earth. ;)

Regards,

Dan
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 21:51:24 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 07:51:24 +1000
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 05:34, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Something Rafal posted has been rattling around in my head: the cost of
> the shutdown continues to accumulate as long as it is in effect.
>
>
>
> We have some notion that we can stay shut down until it is safe to
> re-open, but we really can?t.  That isn?t right.  Had we known we would
> still be in this situation a year ago, most governors would not have opted
> to shut down at all.  At some point, the cost exceeds the value.  We are
> way past the breakeven point and are deep into net loss.
>

What about the economic cost of a deadly disease?

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 21:54:19 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 14:54:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb2tmTOCHQC9QdUTbT3Bf9_0NEL=0EvJAD8nhGoW+cR9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEb2tmTOCHQC9QdUTbT3Bf9_0NEL=0EvJAD8nhGoW+cR9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601d72bf8$8fe78ec0$afb6ac40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown

 

>>? At some point, the cost exceeds the value.  We are way past the breakeven point and are deep into net loss.  spike

>? And how many lives have been saved?

Possibly none.  We know there are fatalities from covid without covid.  I have two family members in that category, a suicide we think was because of a failed business and a heart attack from failure to go to an alternative hospital after the local one went out of business.  The question becomes how many lives were lost?  We don?t know.

 

>?  But that has to be the other side of the equation.  People are still catching it and some are dying.  Keep that in mind.  How much damage to the economy is worth it to save a life?

I see your point, but we have no indication that shutdowns are saving lives.  They might be taking lives.

 

>?   Somebody has to know these things so they can make recommendations?

But they don?t.  That?s the problem.  It is speculation, with plenty of counter-evidence.

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 22:14:42 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 15:14:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
?

>>?We have some notion that we can stay shut down until it is safe to re-open, but we really can?t.  That isn?t right.  Had we known we would still be in this situation a year ago, most governors would not have opted to shut down at all.  At some point, the cost exceeds the value.  We are way past the breakeven point and are deep into net loss.

 

>?What about the economic cost of a deadly disease?

-- 

Stathis Papaioannou

 

 

It?s high.  What we still don?t have is good evidence that shutdowns are effective in stopping it or slowing it.  It seems like masks and shutdowns should be an effective countermeasure, but we really haven?t seen good evidence that they are.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 23:13:32 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 18:13:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY2UA3m9YXD==ukngPzJWDhBtcuc9YMF+O+apkin1Ph1A@mail.gmail.com>

It seems like masks and shutdowns should be an effective countermeasure,
but we really haven?t seen good evidence that they are.



spike     *Well, what DO we have evidence of?  Anything at all?  Or do we
have conflicting evidence?  Surely lots of people are gathering data other
than on cases and deaths.  bill w*

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
> >>?We have some notion that we can stay shut down until it is safe to
> re-open, but we really can?t.  That isn?t right.  Had we known we would
> still be in this situation a year ago, most governors would not have opted
> to shut down at all.  At some point, the cost exceeds the value.  We are
> way past the breakeven point and are deep into net loss.
>
>
>
> >?What about the economic cost of a deadly disease?
>
> --
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>
>
>
> It?s high.  What we still don?t have is good evidence that shutdowns are
> effective in stopping it or slowing it.  It seems like masks and shutdowns
> should be an effective countermeasure, but we really haven?t seen good
> evidence that they are.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 23:15:40 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 18:15:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <0E64F85D-CC9E-4834-8E09-AF904689F619@gmail.com>
References: <004301d72bd6$389566f0$a9c034d0$@rainier66.com>
 <0E64F85D-CC9E-4834-8E09-AF904689F619@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYffUJRykm_AzQ3c3TpZkwq9WRh8CdD0ULvZ_PfEq1HoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dan, you make it sound like the Supreme Court is a useless institution.
Bill W

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 4:35 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Apr 7, 2021, at 11:03 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
>
> *>?*This would be exactly the same if the constitution you worship?
>
>
>
> Wording it like this almost makes it sound like you don?t worship the
> constitution.
>
>
> I?ve made my position clear here over the years. You rarely directly
> respond when I critique the ?awe of constitution? line.
>
> It is the only thing standing between us and complete tyranny.  It is the
> only thing keeping government in check.
>
>
> No, it isn?t. What keeps tyranny in check anywhere is not a piece of
> paper. It?s a wider cultural norms in society (or people acting on those
> norms) and various factions in the ruling class vying against each other.
> At best, a constitution either reflects that wider culture and the power
> dynamics (think of why the mostly unwritten English constitution worked to
> some extent: wider culture and it reflected the the vying between commons,
> aristocrats, and royals ? a rivalry already in place not one created by
> some committee). When it doesn?t reflect that then it doesn?t matter... Or
> as Lysander Spooner put it:
>
> ?But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much
> is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have
> had, or has been powerless to prevent it.?
>
> Still not convinced. The US Constitution did little to restrain taking
> land from indigenous people. It was simply ignored. The same document did
> not restrain the Federalist Party when it decided to abrogate free speech.
> It wasn?t until the Federalists were out of power that their anti-speech
> laws were rescinded. If you fantasy version of reality worked, the Cherokee
> might still be living in the Southeast and the Federalists would?ve never
> passed the Sedition Act much less would anyone have been jailed or fined
> under it.
>
> >? some people would simply not comply and many of them would face little
> penalty for compliance even if, say, said amendment mandates the severe
> penalties for noncompliance?
>
>
>
> The legislature wouldn?t even bother trying to get 38 states to play along
> with creating such an amendment.  Without a law, there can be no penalty
> for non-compliance.  Without legislatures passing it, there is no law.
> Perhaps it will eventually dawn on the politicians that covid is not
> effectively controlled with law, it is effectively controlled by medical
> science.  It is not a good opportunity to seize additional power, is not a
> crisis going to waste, it is only a crisis.
>
>
> Let?s try this again. There are speed limits, right? Even were there a
> national speed limit enshrined in a constitutional amendment, do you
> seriously believe that everyone would suddenly follow the speed limit at
> all times never ever going over when, say, they felt they could get away
> with it? If you seriously do, then I?m sorry I?ll exit this particular
> discussion because I?m needed back on Earth. ;)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr  7 23:25:16 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 16:25:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY2UA3m9YXD==ukngPzJWDhBtcuc9YMF+O+apkin1Ph1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY2UA3m9YXD==ukngPzJWDhBtcuc9YMF+O+apkin1Ph1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000701d72c05$45152030$cf3f6090$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown

 

>>It seems like masks and shutdowns should be an effective countermeasure, but we really haven?t seen good evidence that they are.?spike     

 

 

>?Well, what DO we have evidence of?  Anything at all?  Or do we have conflicting evidence?  Surely lots of people are gathering data other than on cases and deaths.  bill w

 

What else is there to gather besides cases and fatalities?

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 23:43:10 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 18:43:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <000701d72c05$45152030$cf3f6090$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY2UA3m9YXD==ukngPzJWDhBtcuc9YMF+O+apkin1Ph1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <000701d72c05$45152030$cf3f6090$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYODQ-hKtfOoa+DHL77EYWs_p3pqcuAACUx9diUY-u+fA@mail.gmail.com>

What else is there to gather besides cases and fatalities?
spike

Awhile back I read a news story that did a comparison between counties in
Kansas (?) where one county mandated masks and another one didn't and the
cases were very significantly lower in the mandate county.  You could
compare city versus country (we already been through that one), South
versus North, majority black population versus white (and other ethnicity
comparisons), female versus male resistance to getting the vaccine compared
to gender mortality, and so on.  Lots of different things to do.   Cases
and deaths don't occur in a vacuum.  bill w

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 6:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
>
>
>
> >>It seems like masks and shutdowns should be an effective
> countermeasure, but we really haven?t seen good evidence that they are.?spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?*Well, what DO we have evidence of?  Anything at all?  Or do we have
> conflicting evidence?  Surely lots of people are gathering data other than
> on cases and deaths.  bill w*
>
>
>
> What else is there to gather besides cases and fatalities?
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 23:59:34 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 09:59:34 +1000
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypX1J3z3tUueL-irr_1iHS-P6sTiyoiQYhDFSgjrhbXHjg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 08:16, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
> >>?We have some notion that we can stay shut down until it is safe to
> re-open, but we really can?t.  That isn?t right.  Had we known we would
> still be in this situation a year ago, most governors would not have opted
> to shut down at all.  At some point, the cost exceeds the value.  We are
> way past the breakeven point and are deep into net loss.
>
>
>
> >?What about the economic cost of a deadly disease?
>
> --
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>
>
>
> It?s high.  What we still don?t have is good evidence that shutdowns are
> effective in stopping it or slowing it.  It seems like masks and shutdowns
> should be an effective countermeasure, but we really haven?t seen good
> evidence that they are.
>
What other explanations are there for the very low rates of COVID, and the
relatively healthy levels of economic activity and normalcy in everyday
life, in countries such as China?

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 00:32:23 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:32:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYffUJRykm_AzQ3c3TpZkwq9WRh8CdD0ULvZ_PfEq1HoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYffUJRykm_AzQ3c3TpZkwq9WRh8CdD0ULvZ_PfEq1HoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D61CB78-18A1-4EE2-9C15-A62F40DBAA16@gmail.com>

On Apr 7, 2021, at 4:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?
> Dan, you make it sound like the Supreme Court is a useless institution.  Bill W

I?m not sure where you?re going to go with that. Spike seems to think the Constitution prevents tyranny among many other things. Are you arguing that it does this via the Supreme Court? That?s a problem in the two cases I mentioned. With regard to the Sedition Act, the Supreme did nothing because judicial review hadn?t been established. (Interesting that the Constitution was ratified in 1788, but judicial review wasn?t established until 1803. In fact, judicial review isn?t explicitly in the Constitution. It?s an interpretation of Article VI based on an 1803 ruling.)

The Supreme Court also had some strange rulings with regard to indigenous peoples. One merely has to look at the sad history Indian removal and treaty violations. Per the Constitutions treaties are not supposed to be set aside, but the history Indian treaties is one of exactly that. It merely shows that the powerful do what they want when the weak have only a constitution or a treaty to guard them. To pretend otherwise overlooks the entire history of the US in its treatment of indigenous peoples. (This isn?t to say every last thing the Court has done has been bad, but ignoring the bad ? and there are more bad cases than the two very serious ones I mentioned ? here is no more cherry-picking.)

Also, none of this is really new here. I?ve argued these points here and elsewhere before. The usual outcome is my comments are ignored and then at a later date similar points (ones of praising the Constitution) are made as if my comments had never been made before. (I only repeat my criticisms in hopes that some here understand them, but I don?t expect much. Also, none of my criticisms are all that original. Other libertarians ? George H. Smith, Roderick Long, Sheldon Richman, Michael Huemer ? made much the same criticisms decades ago. I?d expect people who claim to be libertarians and especially who are older than me to know something of this ? that it wouldn?t come as a shock whether they agreed with my criticisms or not.) 

Regards,

Dan 
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 02:45:25 2021
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 22:45:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypX1J3z3tUueL-irr_1iHS-P6sTiyoiQYhDFSgjrhbXHjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+PiLcpY70ys1QgNQfd23JkW4DF00cc1eGUc1UGbaU8Zw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 8:02 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> What other explanations are there for the very low rates of COVID, and the
> relatively healthy levels of economic activity and normalcy in everyday
> life, in countries such as China?
>

Low[er] rate is a lie
Health[ier] economic life is a lie

Oh that sounds deliberate and coordinated; to present their situation as
better than our situation.  No government is capable of something so
massively immoral.

Perhaps the noisy data spike keeps combing for signal isn't intentionally
faulty as much as it is multivariate but displayed in too few dimensions.
Cases/day vs time is how normalized data is packaged and sold to
management,  but what isn't being shown?

Where is the money?

What smaller, yet still complex systems could serve as analogous to
governments as organisms- each trying different strategies to overcome a
resource/energy  boundary or predator threat?  How would ants or bees cope
with a covid-equivalent?  Colony-collapse has certainly wrecked many bees.
Do ants have something similar? Or are ants mostly a trope for too
insignificant to monitor? (Unless you are spike)

I think my subconscious "what if" pattern recognizer is stuck on
covid-as-tool. If so, who is wielding it? Was it built for this purpose, or
is it still in learning/practice mode?  Rafal's suggestion that mass
deployment of vaccines bothered me not on the antivax front, but on the
Orwellian/Huxley front.  Maybe money is a secondary target now that meme
warfare has advanced from musket to machine gun.

If there is any hope it is that humanity's covid fever breaks and we emerge
weakened but resolute to be healthier than before.  Healthier than before
in all aspects that covid weakened.

I may be tuned to see the negative, but the fact is the negative extremes
are just as [un]likely as the positive extremes.  We might have much in new
positives as new negatives and not even notice because they negate each
other and leave us with what we view as status quo.

As we are about to enter air conditioning season, I am particularly
grateful for modern problems and modern solutions.

>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Apr  6 17:38:40 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:38:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Soviet TV version of Lord of the Rings rediscovered after
 30 years
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4d80738d-5ae5-2f9e-706e-a4af8bca6798@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-06 03:12, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> The 1991 made-for-TV film, Khraniteli,
> based on Tolkien?s The Fellowship of the Ring, [...]

The title ??????????? appears to mean ?The Keepers?.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 09:13:31 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:13:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Soviet TV version of Lord of the Rings rediscovered after
 30 years
In-Reply-To: <4d80738d-5ae5-2f9e-706e-a4af8bca6798@pobox.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4d80738d-5ae5-2f9e-706e-a4af8bca6798@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjAEMiVOMqPG_p9vPh_ZaQZF5bAKXiAYZu4e=gNTxJJhA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 2:37 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-4-06 03:12, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> > The 1991 made-for-TV film, Khraniteli,
> > based on Tolkien?s The Fellowship of the Ring, [...]
>
> The title ??????????? appears to mean ?The Keepers?.
>

### Also, "protectors", if my rusty Russian is correct.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 09:20:46 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:20:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb2tmTOCHQC9QdUTbT3Bf9_0NEL=0EvJAD8nhGoW+cR9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjpnVJv1TBYeYGDGg8K7KMNfQDe10CFuot5guwJXVhaXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 4:00 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  At some point, the cost exceeds the value.  We are way past the breakeven
> point and are deep into net loss.
>
> spike
>
>  And how many lives have been saved?
>

### No net lives have been saved. People continue to get infected, lockdown
or not, until the vulnerable die and the survivors have herd immunity.
However, people die as a direct result of lockdown - from despair, loss of
access to medical care, substance abuse and indirectly - from the long-term
economic loss and lost opportunities for economic growth.

--------------------


> No one is shutting down things to ruin the economy.  Impossible to
> measure, I'll grant you that.  But that has to be the other side of the
> equation.  People are still catching it and some are dying.  Keep that in
> mind.  How much damage to the economy is worth it to save a life?
> Theoretically.  Does anyone know what variables are being used to make
> these mask and shutdown decisions?  Who is measuring the effects?  Are they
> making decisions based on data? What data?  Does shutting down even work?
>  Somebody has to know these things so they can make recommendations.  I see
> none of the above in the news - just the actions to open up or close down.
>

### The idiots who instituted lockdowns sure didn't know what they were
doing.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 09:29:03 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:29:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjYtDitZ9SkevTxmUjQMJ8wQQmrxA=3VKMej2QGvk_efQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:54 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> What about the economic cost of a deadly disease?
>
>>
>
### While persons of a sensitive disposition might call me callous, the
direct economic cost of Covid is very minor. The vast majority of victims
were the elderly in poor health whose residual contributions to the economy
were negative. The few casualties who were still in the workforce don't add
to a significant economic loss. Increased health care utilization is a
minor cost, especially if you (very callously, I know) note that the
elderly who died now mean less spending in hospitals and nursing homes
later on.

It's no wonder they call economics the dismal science.

OTOH, the cost of our insane response to Covid dwarfs the direct cost by
orders of magnitude.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 09:43:23 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:43:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY2UA3m9YXD==ukngPzJWDhBtcuc9YMF+O+apkin1Ph1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjt1V+HFYAx0LPoxFD99T+PiF9d994umqx21c_G4Aq2Ow@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:16 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It seems like masks and shutdowns should be an effective countermeasure,
> but we really haven?t seen good evidence that they are.
>
>
>
> spike     *Well, what DO we have evidence of?  Anything at all?  Or do we
> have conflicting evidence?  Surely lots of people are gathering data other
> than on cases and deaths.*
>

### We have evidence.

Complete social isolation works (but it's expensive).

Cloth and procedure masks are worthless.

Pretend isolation (6 feet of separation) does not work.

Surface cleaning does not work.

Vaccinations are highly effective.

Decadron works for many cases of severe Covid.

Chloroquine does not work.

Etc.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 09:44:11 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:44:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYODQ-hKtfOoa+DHL77EYWs_p3pqcuAACUx9diUY-u+fA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhYgKF7EYJz4Vfz8+p8W73k4g4Ye+QcuBSJtQzTANo2Ng@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:45 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What else is there to gather besides cases and fatalities?
> spike
>
> Awhile back I read a news story that did a comparison between counties in
> Kansas (?) where one county mandated masks and another one didn't and the
> cases were very significantly lower in the mandate county.
>

### I debunked it here already.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 09:54:40 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 05:54:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+PiLcpY70ys1QgNQfd23JkW4DF00cc1eGUc1UGbaU8Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypX1J3z3tUueL-irr_1iHS-P6sTiyoiQYhDFSgjrhbXHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+PiLcpY70ys1QgNQfd23JkW4DF00cc1eGUc1UGbaU8Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFio1UwT93jrjzBvtSNeJzQ7DTy5QrqSFE3vo48R9ZegYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 10:48 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 8:02 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> What other explanations are there for the very low rates of COVID, and
>> the relatively healthy levels of economic activity and normalcy in everyday
>> life, in countries such as China?
>>
>
>
### The explanation is genetic. All the Asian countries with hundred times
lower Covid rates than Europe and the Americas share only one
characteristic - they are almost exclusively populated by Southeast Asians.
The political systems and the details of response to Wuhan virus all differ
but the outcomes are all the same, which means the widely touted Chinese
communist-fascist method of approaching the disease is not any better than
the relaxed Taiwanese approach. The true explanation is genetic - Asians
have high levels of immunity to a wide range of coronaviruses, as shown in
peer-reviewed research, and this is why they have 100 times fewer
casualties than Europeans.

Rafal
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 10:06:37 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 20:06:37 +1000
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+PiLcpY70ys1QgNQfd23JkW4DF00cc1eGUc1UGbaU8Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypX1J3z3tUueL-irr_1iHS-P6sTiyoiQYhDFSgjrhbXHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+PiLcpY70ys1QgNQfd23JkW4DF00cc1eGUc1UGbaU8Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypXb0-pCP_TNR8+ED3AGVBDet5hgpDa46+d_2DgfdUROmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 12:47, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 8:02 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> What other explanations are there for the very low rates of COVID, and
>> the relatively healthy levels of economic activity and normalcy in everyday
>> life, in countries such as China?
>>
>
> Low[er] rate is a lie
> Health[ier] economic life is a lie
>
> Oh that sounds deliberate and coordinated; to present their situation as
> better than our situation.  No government is capable of something so
> massively immoral.
>
> Perhaps the noisy data spike keeps combing for signal isn't intentionally
> faulty as much as it is multivariate but displayed in too few dimensions.
> Cases/day vs time is how normalized data is packaged and sold to
> management,  but what isn't being shown?
>
> Where is the money?
>
> What smaller, yet still complex systems could serve as analogous to
> governments as organisms- each trying different strategies to overcome a
> resource/energy  boundary or predator threat?  How would ants or bees cope
> with a covid-equivalent?  Colony-collapse has certainly wrecked many bees.
> Do ants have something similar? Or are ants mostly a trope for too
> insignificant to monitor? (Unless you are spike)
>
> I think my subconscious "what if" pattern recognizer is stuck on
> covid-as-tool. If so, who is wielding it? Was it built for this purpose, or
> is it still in learning/practice mode?  Rafal's suggestion that mass
> deployment of vaccines bothered me not on the antivax front, but on the
> Orwellian/Huxley front.  Maybe money is a secondary target now that meme
> warfare has advanced from musket to machine gun.
>
> If there is any hope it is that humanity's covid fever breaks and we
> emerge weakened but resolute to be healthier than before.  Healthier than
> before in all aspects that covid weakened.
>
> I may be tuned to see the negative, but the fact is the negative extremes
> are just as [un]likely as the positive extremes.  We might have much in new
> positives as new negatives and not even notice because they negate each
> other and leave us with what we view as status quo.
>
> As we are about to enter air conditioning season, I am particularly
> grateful for modern problems and modern solutions.
>

You seem to be incredulous about the situation in China. It?s not just
China but other countries such as Singapore, Taiwan, Australia and New
Zealand that have successfully controlled the virus: people can go
essentially go about their business as per usual, and this has been the
case for months. There is still a strict quarantine for international
visitors, who are locked up in hotels for two weeks, and every now and then
a case leans through, but it is is suppressed with aggressive contact
tracing and in some cases a strict lockdown for a few days. This is what
happened in the Australian state of Queensland a couple of weeks ago, when
there were half a dozen cases originating from a doctor treating
international visitors. The city of Brisbane was locked down fir three
days, masks were required in the rest of Queensland, people travelling to
other Australian states from Queensland were quarantined. There have been
no more cases, and everything has returned to normal. You may not think
that such drastic measures are warranted, but they work.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 10:07:40 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 20:07:40 +1000
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFio1UwT93jrjzBvtSNeJzQ7DTy5QrqSFE3vo48R9ZegYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypX1J3z3tUueL-irr_1iHS-P6sTiyoiQYhDFSgjrhbXHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+PiLcpY70ys1QgNQfd23JkW4DF00cc1eGUc1UGbaU8Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFio1UwT93jrjzBvtSNeJzQ7DTy5QrqSFE3vo48R9ZegYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypWsH_K2dOoNHLgJ=i5NE6OEcQkOn4dWLsO8FXNNZ5ORMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 at 19:59, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 10:48 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 8:02 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What other explanations are there for the very low rates of COVID, and
>>> the relatively healthy levels of economic activity and normalcy in everyday
>>> life, in countries such as China?
>>>
>>
>>
> ### The explanation is genetic. All the Asian countries with hundred times
> lower Covid rates than Europe and the Americas share only one
> characteristic - they are almost exclusively populated by Southeast Asians.
> The political systems and the details of response to Wuhan virus all differ
> but the outcomes are all the same, which means the widely touted Chinese
> communist-fascist method of approaching the disease is not any better than
> the relaxed Taiwanese approach. The true explanation is genetic - Asians
> have high levels of immunity to a wide range of coronaviruses, as shown in
> peer-reviewed research, and this is why they have 100 times fewer
> casualties than Europeans.
>

What about Australia and New Zealand?

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Apr  6 17:38:40 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:38:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Soviet TV version of Lord of the Rings rediscovered after
 30 years
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2hXT8zVq+8HnVRyy6GoTgUJUYXL+WgWw8H0RNgNPV9kQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4d80738d-5ae5-2f9e-706e-a4af8bca6798@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-06 03:12, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> The 1991 made-for-TV film, Khraniteli,
> based on Tolkien?s The Fellowship of the Ring, [...]

The title ??????????? appears to mean ?The Keepers?.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 16:11:47 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 11:11:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <7D61CB78-18A1-4EE2-9C15-A62F40DBAA16@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYffUJRykm_AzQ3c3TpZkwq9WRh8CdD0ULvZ_PfEq1HoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D61CB78-18A1-4EE2-9C15-A62F40DBAA16@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZx8schovPZGGSpYEERPmFLMT2fdFnTEuxuNkLheTDUCg@mail.gmail.com>

Cherrypicking some awful Supreme Court decisions does not invalidate the
role they have played in keeping us, mostly, to the promises involved in
the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.   It's impossible to say just how
important they have been but the contributions they have made are
significant.  bill w

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:35 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Apr 7, 2021, at 4:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?
> Dan, you make it sound like the Supreme Court is a useless institution.
> Bill W
>
>
> I?m not sure where you?re going to go with that. Spike seems to think the
> Constitution prevents tyranny among many other things. Are you arguing that
> it does this via the Supreme Court? That?s a problem in the two cases I
> mentioned. With regard to the Sedition Act, the Supreme did nothing because
> judicial review hadn?t been established. (Interesting that the Constitution
> was ratified in 1788, but judicial review wasn?t established until 1803. In
> fact, judicial review isn?t explicitly in the Constitution. It?s an
> interpretation of Article VI based on an 1803 ruling.)
>
> The Supreme Court also had some strange rulings with regard to indigenous
> peoples. One merely has to look at the sad history Indian removal and
> treaty violations. Per the Constitutions treaties are not supposed to be
> set aside, but the history Indian treaties is one of exactly that. It
> merely shows that the powerful do what they want when the weak have only a
> constitution or a treaty to guard them. To pretend otherwise overlooks the
> entire history of the US in its treatment of indigenous peoples. (This
> isn?t to say every last thing the Court has done has been bad, but ignoring
> the bad ? and there are more bad cases than the two very serious ones I
> mentioned ? here is no more cherry-picking.)
>
> Also, none of this is really new here. I?ve argued these points here and
> elsewhere before. The usual outcome is my comments are ignored and then at
> a later date similar points (ones of praising the Constitution) are made as
> if my comments had never been made before. (I only repeat my criticisms in
> hopes that some here understand them, but I don?t expect much. Also, none
> of my criticisms are all that original. Other libertarians ? George H.
> Smith, Roderick Long, Sheldon Richman, Michael Huemer ? made much the same
> criticisms decades ago. I?d expect people who claim to be libertarians and
> especially who are older than me to know something of this ? that it
> wouldn?t come as a shock whether they agreed with my criticisms or not.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Thu Apr  8 17:00:53 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:00:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <mailman.123.1617832307.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.123.1617832307.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <e3e1ac31-ad85-8a09-b38a-f7a2ef1ac1c4@zaiboc.net>

On 07/04/2021 22:51, billw wrote:
> ...how many lives have been saved?? No one is shutting down things to 
> ruin the economy. Impossible to measure, I'll grant you that.? But 
> that has to be the other side of the equation.? People are still 
> catching it and some are dying.? Keep that in mind.? How much damage 
> to the economy is worth it to save a life?? Theoretically.? Does 
> anyone know what variables are being used to make these mask and 
> shutdown decisions?? Who is measuring the effects?? Are they making 
> decisions based on data? What data?? Does shutting down even work?? 
> ?Somebody has to know these things so they can make recommendations.? 
> I see none of the above in the news - just the actions to open up or 
> close down.? bill w

It seems obvious to me: These are political decisions, made in the same 
way that all political decisions are made. The important thing is to get 
re-elected, to maintain power. This takes precedence over everything: 
Human lives, the economy, the environment, the entire world, everything. 
The way to be re-elected is to be seen to be 'doing something'. Doing 
nothing is political suicide, because you can't get credit for doing 
nothing, no matter what the outcome. So the politicians will decide to 
'get things done', without any regard for the actual effectiveness of 
the actions taken. If the voters see them as being decisive, they will 
get re-elected. Data doesn't come into it, calculations don't get 
anywhere near it. Recommendations are listened to then disregarded. Or 
not even listened to at all. Politicians know how effective 'knee-jerk' 
reactions are, and are experts at manipulating them for their own ends. 
No other explanation is needed.

Ben

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Thu Apr  8 17:11:44 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:11:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <mailman.125.1617874167.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.125.1617874167.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <00519f4a-bafa-0ff4-732a-714729d16ece@zaiboc.net>

On 08/04/2021 10:29, Rafal wrote:
> ### The idiots who instituted lockdowns sure didn't know what they 
> were doing.

I would disagree. They knew exactly what they were doing: Being seen to 
be 'doing something'. This is what gets you re-elected. Which is the 
only thing that matters to these people.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 17:24:28 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 13:24:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <e3e1ac31-ad85-8a09-b38a-f7a2ef1ac1c4@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.123.1617832307.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <e3e1ac31-ad85-8a09-b38a-f7a2ef1ac1c4@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fo2jzDqN9q5w2tZ6s_=V441N-RjF6U=Eh+LXh+Ab8+vQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 1:04 PM Ben via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 07/04/2021 22:51, billw wrote:
>
>  ... how many lives have been saved?  No one is shutting down things to
> ruin the economy.  Impossible to measure, I'll grant you that.  But that
> has to be the other side of the equation.  People are still catching it and
> some are dying.  Keep that in mind.  How much damage to the economy is
> worth it to save a life?  Theoretically.  Does anyone know what variables
> are being used to make these mask and shutdown decisions?  Who is measuring
> the effects?  Are they making decisions based on data? What data?  Does
> shutting down even work?   Somebody has to know these things so they can
> make recommendations.  I see none of the above in the news - just the
> actions to open up or close down.  bill w
>
> It seems obvious to me: These are political decisions, made in the same
> way that all political decisions are made. The important thing is to get
> re-elected, to maintain power. This takes precedence over everything: Human
> lives, the economy, the environment, the entire world, everything. The way
> to be re-elected is to be seen to be 'doing something'. Doing nothing is
> political suicide, because you can't get credit for doing nothing, no
> matter what the outcome. So the politicians will decide to 'get things
> done', without any regard for the actual effectiveness of the actions
> taken. If the voters see them as being decisive, they will get re-elected.
> Data doesn't come into it, calculations don't get anywhere near it.
> Recommendations are listened to then disregarded. Or not even listened to
> at all. Politicians know how effective 'knee-jerk' reactions are, and are
> experts at manipulating them for their own ends. No other explanation is
> needed.
>

Yep. All good politicians know better than to let a crisis go to waste:
they're opportunities to expand their powers while looking like they're
concerned and helping.

-Dave
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Apr  8 19:22:03 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 12:22:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fo2jzDqN9q5w2tZ6s_=V441N-RjF6U=Eh+LXh+Ab8+vQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.123.1617832307.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <e3e1ac31-ad85-8a09-b38a-f7a2ef1ac1c4@zaiboc.net>
 <CAM5aL2fo2jzDqN9q5w2tZ6s_=V441N-RjF6U=Eh+LXh+Ab8+vQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01d72cac$75425f00$5fc71d00$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat



 

>?Yep. All good politicians know better than to let a crisis go to waste: they're opportunities to expand their powers while looking like they're concerned and helping.

 

-Dave

 

 

 

Thanks for that, Dave.  If so, the current crop were partially successful: they expanded their powers, but failed to look a bit concerned or helping anyone.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  9 02:08:02 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 19:08:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZx8schovPZGGSpYEERPmFLMT2fdFnTEuxuNkLheTDUCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYffUJRykm_AzQ3c3TpZkwq9WRh8CdD0ULvZ_PfEq1HoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D61CB78-18A1-4EE2-9C15-A62F40DBAA16@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZx8schovPZGGSpYEERPmFLMT2fdFnTEuxuNkLheTDUCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001401d72ce5$2c1f9840$845ec8c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat



 

 

>?The Supreme Court also had some strange rulings with regard to indigenous peoples.

 

 

 

US Constitution, Amendment 14, section 2, ratified 1868:

 

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed?

 

Native Americans were not universally made US citizens until 1924.

 

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  9 15:05:48 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 08:05:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
Message-ID: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>

 

I heard an expression this week that reminds me of my cheerfully misspent
childhood: You can't yell fire in a crowded theatre.  I always assumed it
true.  But. is it?  I understand it is a reference to the limits of free
speech.  It makes reference to something the old timers all understood but
moderns do not.  

 

In the old days, theatres were made of wood and were full of flammables.
They had no sprinkler systems, no smoke detectors, no fire alarms, no
extinguishers, grossly insufficient emergency exits.  Proles would trample
each other in panic trying to get out if anyone screamed fire.  

 

What would happen if someone did that now?  Answer: probably nothing.  I
wouldn't get out of my seat.  Any building that meets modern fire code
doesn't really burn worth a worry.  The carpet is fire suppressed, drywall
doesn't burn at all, there are smoke detectors everywhere.  If someone
started screaming fire, the bouncer would likely throw the bum out, but I
doubt there would be legal consequences.

 

Conclusion: you can yell fire in a crowded theatre.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 15:35:14 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 10:35:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbjFBLpcD_swEAmbfQ9=BG=BJRLd_ZsY9zVhYEZ7L9GnA@mail.gmail.com>

You're making a lot of assumptions here.  Are you sure every theater has
carpet and seat covers that don't release toxic chemicals when heated?  Who
is in charge of confirming that this is true?  Older theaters would have
had to come up to code (assuming that there is one in every single
community that has a theater).  I have strong doubts as to whether all this
has happened everywhere.   Plus, normal human behavior (something you might
not be all that familiar with) says "Get up and run over people!"  bill w

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 10:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I heard an expression this week that reminds me of my cheerfully misspent
> childhood: You can?t yell fire in a crowded theatre.  I always assumed it
> true.  But? is it?  I understand it is a reference to the limits of free
> speech.  It makes reference to something the old timers all understood but
> moderns do not.
>
>
>
> In the old days, theatres were made of wood and were full of flammables.
> They had no sprinkler systems, no smoke detectors, no fire alarms, no
> extinguishers, grossly insufficient emergency exits.  Proles would trample
> each other in panic trying to get out if anyone screamed fire.
>
>
>
> What would happen if someone did that now?  Answer: probably nothing.  I
> wouldn?t get out of my seat.  Any building that meets modern fire code
> doesn?t really burn worth a worry.  The carpet is fire suppressed, drywall
> doesn?t burn at all, there are smoke detectors everywhere.  If someone
> started screaming fire, the bouncer would likely throw the bum out, but I
> doubt there would be legal consequences.
>
>
>
> Conclusion: you can yell fire in a crowded theatre.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 15:46:20 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 10:46:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>

This 2010 book is the usual very funny report on astronaut training, just
about all of which I was ignorant of.  If you did not read it at the time,
it's still relevant - and now very cheap.

I taught a course in Human sexulity and Mary Roach's book Bonk taught me a
few things my research did not reveal.  Funny too.  All of her books are
not just funny but well-researched.  bill w
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From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Apr  9 16:00:02 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:00:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <a0def691-1afd-ba39-f717-d3c136dbd21c@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-09 08:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> I heard an expression this week that reminds me of my cheerfully 
> misspent childhood: You can?t yell fire in a crowded theatre. 

The phrase has a shameful history.
https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackneyed-apologia-for-censorship-are-enough/

Ironically in light of its source, the metaphor applies more aptly to 
politicians who tell tall tales to stir up war.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 16:07:09 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:07:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dObFVctySjxCkVsYAA=_mqktO-c5zzBQtkSb+-A59NvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I heard an expression this week that reminds me of my cheerfully misspent
> childhood: You can?t yell fire in a crowded theatre.  I always assumed it
> true.  But? is it?  I understand it is a reference to the limits of free
> speech.  It makes reference to something the old timers all understood but
> moderns do not.
>
>
>
> In the old days, theatres were made of wood and were full of flammables.
> They had no sprinkler systems, no smoke detectors, no fire alarms, no
> extinguishers, grossly insufficient emergency exits.  Proles would trample
> each other in panic trying to get out if anyone screamed fire.
>
>
>
> What would happen if someone did that now?  Answer: probably nothing.  I
> wouldn?t get out of my seat.  Any building that meets modern fire code
> doesn?t really burn worth a worry.  The carpet is fire suppressed, drywall
> doesn?t burn at all, there are smoke detectors everywhere.  If someone
> started screaming fire, the bouncer would likely throw the bum out, but I
> doubt there would be legal consequences.
>
>
>
> Conclusion: you can yell fire in a crowded theatre.
>

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

Doing that did cause a significant number of deaths a hundred or more years
ago. As a justification for not allowing anti-draft pamphlets to be
distributed, it's not such a great argument.

-Dave

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  9 16:52:50 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:52:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002901d72d60$c7025c50$550714f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, April 9, 2021 8:46 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; extropolis at googlegroups.com
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars

 

This 2010 book is the usual very funny report on astronaut training, just about all of which I was ignorant of.  ?  bill w

 

 

Billw, regarding the Packing for Mars book, is it about standard astronaut training or is it specifically about training for Mars?  This is a critical difference, because the weight calculations are still telling us that any trip to the Mars surface with humans is one-way.  We have no currently-known technology for getting back up to Mars orbit from the surface. 

 

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  9 16:59:25 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:59:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dObFVctySjxCkVsYAA=_mqktO-c5zzBQtkSb+-A59NvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2dObFVctySjxCkVsYAA=_mqktO-c5zzBQtkSb+-A59NvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003201d72d61$b2ae8b60$180ba220$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat



Conclusion: you can yell fire in a crowded theatre? spike

 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

 

Doing that did cause a significant number of deaths a hundred or more years ago. As a justification for not allowing anti-draft pamphlets to be distributed, it's not such a great argument.

 

-Dave

 

 

Ja.  I didn?t really mean to segue into a free-speech discussion, but rather to point out that there isn?t much that can cause a fatal human stampede left, other than gunshots.  Modern people go into a total panic at the sound of gunshots, but not the threat of being trapped in a burning building, the risk of which has gone down so dramatically that we don?t even worry about it anymore.  People do freak out over gunshots.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 17:39:34 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:39:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
In-Reply-To: <002901d72d60$c7025c50$550714f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901d72d60$c7025c50$550714f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZELL3MmXsY3iJZz2eceaO_LmubXk50Agr34AsAsTupfw@mail.gmail.com>

She said that she would address the Mars trip towards the back of the book,
and I am not there yet.  As yet, it appears to be standard procedure.  A
Mars trip appears to be a huge incentive for the trainees, who will suffer
anything to go in space.  Robots to Mars seems to me the first trip
scenario.
 bill w

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, April 9, 2021 8:46 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>;
> extropolis at googlegroups.com
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [ExI] Packing for Mars
>
>
>
> This 2010 book is the usual very funny report on astronaut training, just
> about all of which I was ignorant of.  ?  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Billw, regarding the Packing for Mars book, is it about standard astronaut
> training or is it specifically about training for Mars?  This is a critical
> difference, because the weight calculations are still telling us that any
> trip to the Mars surface with humans is one-way.  We have no
> currently-known technology for getting back up to Mars orbit from the
> surface.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 17:41:23 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:41:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <003201d72d61$b2ae8b60$180ba220$@rainier66.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2dObFVctySjxCkVsYAA=_mqktO-c5zzBQtkSb+-A59NvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003201d72d61$b2ae8b60$180ba220$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZEWRKBp4rGia595Pr=rJ36j9i6zAtcatqPVFo+qraj9g@mail.gmail.com>

Solution - when there is a fire in the theater, pipe gunshot sounds over
the loudspeaker system.  And call your lawyers.  bill w

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 12:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave Sill via extropy-chat
>
> Conclusion: you can yell fire in a crowded theatre? spike
>
>
>
> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater
>
>
>
> Doing that did cause a significant number of deaths a hundred or more
> years ago. As a justification for not allowing anti-draft pamphlets to be
> distributed, it's not such a great argument.
>
>
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja.  I didn?t really mean to segue into a free-speech discussion, but
> rather to point out that there isn?t much that can cause a fatal human
> stampede left, other than gunshots.  Modern people go into a total panic at
> the sound of gunshots, but not the threat of being trapped in a burning
> building, the risk of which has gone down so dramatically that we don?t
> even worry about it anymore.  People do freak out over gunshots.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 17:52:01 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:52:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Would you consider this thermostat to be conscious?
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontb7qNWUKXR=d5VfvTeyXLnxW00L48UeuBzHtiG8XYw8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Question for everyone.

We define consciousness In the Representational Qualia Theory statement
<fhttps://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/6-Representational-Qualia#statement>
to
be "Computationally bound elemental intrinsic qualities like redness and
greenness".  A minimum level of consciousness is specified as anything that
has at least two pieces of phenomenal information, like two pixels of
either redness or greenness, being computationally bound.  There would not
be any other conscious information...  Nothing like knowledge of oneself
perceiving those colors, no ability to plot the end of humanity....)  Just
2 elemental pieces of phenomenal information computationally bound, nothing
else.

We give an example of a conscious thermostat, that according to that
definition, would be considered conscious, even though only minimally so.

Would all you guys consider such to be conscious, also?

Why or why not?
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 18:19:26 2021
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 13:19:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Would you consider this thermostat to be conscious?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontb7qNWUKXR=d5VfvTeyXLnxW00L48UeuBzHtiG8XYw8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-ontb7qNWUKXR=d5VfvTeyXLnxW00L48UeuBzHtiG8XYw8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjAfuJzCg-Jr1XGw722NDMahY56hrdkNc=PrNC=dLX-Kg@mail.gmail.com>

Using the definition of consciousness as "awareness of information," then
consciousness requires both information and a system to be informed.

Any computational process that reacts to the presence of information to
enter one of two or more different states would be informed by that
information, so we could conclude it is conscious of that information.

In that sense, conditional statements (if, switch, while, until, etc.) are
the 'atoms' of consciousness. That is where all consideration,
discrimination, and differentiation of information occurs in any program.

In our brains, if statements are involved in every neuron's decision to
fire. Artificial neurons are themselves universal logic gates, in that they
can be used to implement any system of logic gates.

Hierarchies of processing at different levels can build up to represent
informational states of arbitrary complexity, providing for an infinity of
possible conscious states.

At least, these are my current thoughts on the matter.

Jason



On Friday, April 9, 2021, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Question for everyone.
>
> We define consciousness In the Representational Qualia Theory statement to
> be "Computationally bound elemental intrinsic qualities like redness and
> greenness".  A minimum level of consciousness is specified as anything that
> has at least two pieces of phenomenal information, like two pixels of
> either redness or greenness, being computationally bound.  There would not
> be any other conscious information...  Nothing like knowledge of oneself
> perceiving those colors, no ability to plot the end of humanity....)  Just
> 2 elemental pieces of phenomenal information computationally bound, nothing
> else.
>
> We give an example of a conscious thermostat, that according to that
> definition, would be considered conscious, even though only minimally so.
>
> Would all you guys consider such to be conscious, also?
>
> Why or why not?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  9 18:28:14 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:28:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZEWRKBp4rGia595Pr=rJ36j9i6zAtcatqPVFo+qraj9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2dObFVctySjxCkVsYAA=_mqktO-c5zzBQtkSb+-A59NvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003201d72d61$b2ae8b60$180ba220$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZEWRKBp4rGia595Pr=rJ36j9i6zAtcatqPVFo+qraj9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003601d72d6e$1aaff2b0$500fd810$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] yelling fire

 

>?Solution - when there is a fire in the theater, pipe gunshot sounds over the loudspeaker system?  

 

Brilliant!  Oh wait, never mind.  Playing gunshots over the speaker system would be interpreted as part of the movie.  Any modern movie which does not include people getting shot is consigned to the small market bin now called ?talking heads? movies.  They have no shootouts, no car chases, no helicopter crashes, nothing to hold the interest of the bulk of theatre attendees, none of whom have ever heard of a fire in a theatre or even seen anyone smoking indoors.  Times change, sometimes for the better.  I would gladly trade going to the movies for the absence of theatre fires.

 

>?And call your lawyers.  bill w

 

BillW, as a fun aside to your solution, a thought experiment I use to illustrate to students a shock wave is to have them imagine the best, most powerful stereo speaker over which you play the sound of a mighty blast.  Put a bucket over the speaker, play the bang.  Nothing happens.  Now get an M-80 or cherry bomb, light it, bucket over, step back (way back.)  Boom, up it goes.  The speaker makes a sound wave, the cherry bomb makes a shock wave.  Two different kinds of waves.

 

They still don?t understand of course, because explosives are illegal in California.  The meekly conforming drones have never seen either a cherry bomb or an M-80.  Sheesh, kids these days.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 18:55:50 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:55:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <003601d72d6e$1aaff2b0$500fd810$@rainier66.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2dObFVctySjxCkVsYAA=_mqktO-c5zzBQtkSb+-A59NvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003201d72d61$b2ae8b60$180ba220$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZEWRKBp4rGia595Pr=rJ36j9i6zAtcatqPVFo+qraj9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003601d72d6e$1aaff2b0$500fd810$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR9KzHVW5fy_pbEFjwbOeZqiv3wWKwc0e3Rw8Tr0zkLPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  They still don?t understand of course, because explosives are illegal in
> California.  The meekly conforming drones have never seen either a cherry
> bomb or an M-80.  Sheesh, kids these days.
>

Set off a few M-388s.  They'll see it, even if via TV or Internet video.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 19:03:11 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:03:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
In-Reply-To: <002901d72d60$c7025c50$550714f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901d72d60$c7025c50$550714f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQvSJA11ph_HaM36JpOjrHvSo-CLqfnm-fr1dbWwXd+-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Billw, regarding the Packing for Mars book, is it about standard astronaut
> training or is it specifically about training for Mars?  This is a critical
> difference, because the weight calculations are still telling us that any
> trip to the Mars surface with humans is one-way.  We have no
> currently-known technology for getting back up to Mars orbit from the
> surface.
>

We know quite well how to get back up.  It just hasn't been done yet, as it
would be expensive to do so, and we haven't yet had anything we deemed
worth the expense.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  9 19:13:58 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 12:13:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQvSJA11ph_HaM36JpOjrHvSo-CLqfnm-fr1dbWwXd+-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901d72d60$c7025c50$550714f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQvSJA11ph_HaM36JpOjrHvSo-CLqfnm-fr1dbWwXd+-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601d72d74$7e595940$7b0c0bc0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Packing for Mars

 

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Billw?

 

>?We know quite well how to get back up.  It just hasn't been done yet, as it would be expensive to do so, and we haven't yet had anything we deemed worth the expense?.

 

 

 

Adrian what do you have in mind?

 

spike

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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 19:21:30 2021
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 13:21:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
In-Reply-To: <001601d72d74$7e595940$7b0c0bc0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901d72d60$c7025c50$550714f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQvSJA11ph_HaM36JpOjrHvSo-CLqfnm-fr1dbWwXd+-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601d72d74$7e595940$7b0c0bc0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQtNef_zPZ=EWNDRw2BC3jWJMRZoqXgRUpOd92UjMSqbg@mail.gmail.com>

The two-stage-to-orbit Mars Ascent Vehicles from "The Martian" seem
perfectly feasible, given a billion dollars or two worth of R&D to work out
the little details.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 1:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Packing for Mars
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Billw?
>
>
>
> >?We know quite well how to get back up.  It just hasn't been done yet, as
> it would be expensive to do so, and we haven't yet had anything we deemed
> worth the expense?.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Adrian what do you have in mind?
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 23:18:58 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 16:18:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQtNef_zPZ=EWNDRw2BC3jWJMRZoqXgRUpOd92UjMSqbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901d72d60$c7025c50$550714f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQvSJA11ph_HaM36JpOjrHvSo-CLqfnm-fr1dbWwXd+-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601d72d74$7e595940$7b0c0bc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAEptUkQtNef_zPZ=EWNDRw2BC3jWJMRZoqXgRUpOd92UjMSqbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQwx33TOszdkAvWvQa2Db0YZM7wU-1Aw7qaVUbgErq6=g@mail.gmail.com>

Something like that, yeah.  I think I could, if I had to (and was trusted
to by someones with enough money), get a small Mars sample return mission
done for no more than $100M.

Do not confuse "we don't know any way to do it" with "it would not be
affordable/practical with certain assumptions".

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 12:23 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The two-stage-to-orbit Mars Ascent Vehicles from "The Martian" seem
> perfectly feasible, given a billion dollars or two worth of R&D to work out
> the little details.
>
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 1:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Packing for Mars
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 9:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Billw?
>>
>>
>>
>> >?We know quite well how to get back up.  It just hasn't been done yet,
>> as it would be expensive to do so, and we haven't yet had anything we
>> deemed worth the expense?.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Adrian what do you have in mind?
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Apr 10 01:24:58 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 18:24:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54b9cf5f-e894-9b24-23fe-1a1a0382a55e@pobox.com>

You know what they say: men pack for Mars, women pack for Venus.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From monteluna at protonmail.com  Sun Apr 11 13:21:39 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:21:39 +0000
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
Message-ID: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>

A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the costs down, making this idea more viable.

To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space, maybe a rough history would suffice.

A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants. Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win, which reveal more information.

Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets

An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite. Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)

A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets, allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good decisions for the organization.

Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/

So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically is viable.

With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does, rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions are far more tenable.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 14:59:32 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 07:59:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQa5VbyNkX1OBBkMEtZSr5oQ3OYP=mNzJ4LiGjyBLfqSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 6:24 AM JF via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of
> the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds.
>

If only there were enough funds available to matter.  A few thousand
dollars, if even that much, does not enable much action on the goals we
seek.

>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 18:19:34 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 02:19:34 +0800
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQa5VbyNkX1OBBkMEtZSr5oQ3OYP=mNzJ4LiGjyBLfqSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQa5VbyNkX1OBBkMEtZSr5oQ3OYP=mNzJ4LiGjyBLfqSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0SDczh3jiLS67nD4u3RsWuYr_fRByU3bhxYYc6wBUEAg@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian, how much money would it take?

John

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 11:04 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 6:24 AM JF via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of
>> the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
>> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds.
>>
>
> If only there were enough funds available to matter.  A few thousand
> dollars, if even that much, does not enable much action on the goals we
> seek.
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From monteluna at protonmail.com  Sun Apr 11 20:11:31 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 20:11:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>

Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the idea of a "cloud country".

https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/

This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of the community. There's nothing stopping this today.

As for some of the messages:

I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called [DAOHaus to create MolochDAOs](https://daohaus.club/), the answer to "how much money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should, give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.

To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene. A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.

We could technically do this now.

??????? Original Message ???????
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the costs down, making this idea more viable.
>
> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space, maybe a rough history would suffice.
>
> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants. Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win, which reveal more information.
>
> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>
> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite. Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>
> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets, allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good decisions for the organization.
>
> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>
> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically is viable.
>
> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does, rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions are far more tenable.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 20:52:18 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:52:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0SDczh3jiLS67nD4u3RsWuYr_fRByU3bhxYYc6wBUEAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQa5VbyNkX1OBBkMEtZSr5oQ3OYP=mNzJ4LiGjyBLfqSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy0SDczh3jiLS67nD4u3RsWuYr_fRByU3bhxYYc6wBUEAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQVNfvj0bYNHswDsisLVL-4DeWfMRZ4iTUJnKtAHZA-2w@mail.gmail.com>

Depends on the goal.

For instance, getting CubeCab going would be $5-6M.  But I know that
wouldn't be everyone's top priority - in fact, I suspect I could not get
enough funding to be worth the effort, pitching to the members of this
list.  This is why I haven't done so.

Other goals have their own budgets.  For instance, space based solar power
manufactured on and launched from Earth would cost quite a bit more - which
is why I'm investigating precisely what it would take to get space based
solar power manufactured on and launched from the Moon (which would still
be quite a bit more than just getting CubeCab going, but apparently not
nearly as much as the from-Earth solution, once you get to industrially
significant amounts of power).

But most of the goals I see bandied about here, would require budgets far
in excess of what could be raised from this list's members.  This is
sufficient to discount any scheme that relies primarily on raising funds
from this list's members to accomplish said goals, no matter how said funds
are managed and distributed.

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 11:17 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Adrian, how much money would it take?
>
> John
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 11:04 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 6:24 AM JF via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense
>>> of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
>>> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds.
>>>
>>
>> If only there were enough funds available to matter.  A few thousand
>> dollars, if even that much, does not enable much action on the goals we
>> seek.
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 20:59:14 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:59:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>

This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate, in
the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will
bring about negation of gravity".

A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing countries
recognize it.

The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond any
reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to gain
said recognition.

Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until well
after establishment as a country will fail.

This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of text
of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.

If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed,
such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that
some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact
minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more
likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as
their primary residence.  Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by
only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition -
will fail.

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a particular
> crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the idea of a
> "cloud country".
>
> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>
> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized
> organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It
> could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of
> the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>
> As for some of the messages:
>
> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called DAOHaus
> to create MolochDAOs <https://daohaus.club/>, the answer to "how much
> money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just
> a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone
> could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should,
> give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs
> are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and
> leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the
> group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent
> organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
>
> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be to
> collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually
> would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we
> could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the
> tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene.
> A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>
> We could technically do this now.
>
>
>
> ??????? Original Message ???????
> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to
> further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I
> figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on
> Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the
> costs down, making this idea more viable.
>
> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space,
> maybe a rough history would suffice.
>
> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract
> system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction
> markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real
> world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are
> all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated
> market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly
> produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become
> "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants.
> Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the
> arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win,
> which reveal more information.
>
> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>
> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first
> DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most
> basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do
> actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making
> the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation
> rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite.
> Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain
> (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>
> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A
> futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets,
> allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it
> couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information
> and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good
> decisions for the organization.
>
> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>
> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have
> viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up
> until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application
> work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically
> is viable.
>
> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of
> the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can
> completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does,
> rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions
> are far more tenable.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From monteluna at protonmail.com  Sun Apr 11 21:30:35 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 21:30:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FiDBb8YEHztPRPtH39r7INmtiJYbRgVPedwlMH6lCq5qw88wNJ6PT40ISfP8YA4213-MThzegGM1cJcZEbsY0szLK919DzHcTHU4EDcA41E=@protonmail.com>

You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full working system. It is always bottom up.

This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It may never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".

All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere and bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no particular risk in starting something.

Sent from ProtonMail mobile

-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate, in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will bring about negation of gravity".
>
> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing countries recognize it.
>
> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to gain said recognition.
>
> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until well after establishment as a country will fail.
>
> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of text of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>
> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed, such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as their primary residence. Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition - will fail.
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the idea of a "cloud country".
>>
>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>
>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>
>> As for some of the messages:
>>
>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called [DAOHaus to create MolochDAOs](https://daohaus.club/), the answer to "how much money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should, give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
>>
>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene. A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>
>> We could technically do this now.
>>
>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>>
>>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space, maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>>
>>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants. Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win, which reveal more information.
>>>
>>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>>
>>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite. Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>>
>>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets, allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good decisions for the organization.
>>>
>>> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>>
>>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically is viable.
>>>
>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does, rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions are far more tenable.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 21:52:38 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 14:52:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <FiDBb8YEHztPRPtH39r7INmtiJYbRgVPedwlMH6lCq5qw88wNJ6PT40ISfP8YA4213-MThzegGM1cJcZEbsY0szLK919DzHcTHU4EDcA41E=@protonmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <FiDBb8YEHztPRPtH39r7INmtiJYbRgVPedwlMH6lCq5qw88wNJ6PT40ISfP8YA4213-MThzegGM1cJcZEbsY0szLK919DzHcTHU4EDcA41E=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQSaCLC1DB7pe0RL5wP5Sko6msyY13UcHXoW_ojE=Hskg@mail.gmail.com>

An emergent system needs some working start, some viable subset of the
eventual desired state.  What is proposed here is far less than that.
That's the "at least 10,000-1,000,000 people and some land" - yes, for a
country, that is the minimum to bootstrap.

Countries are defined by recognition.  Groups with large amounts of
financial activity can be international corporations, which are not
themselves actually countries.

The virtue of "fail fast" assumes that lessons will be learned from the
failures.  Failure while refusing to learn from failures - and this
proposal is a blatant refusal to acknowledge, let alone learn from, past
failures - goes nowhere.  This does take resources, so if you commit to
this approach, you commit to not accomplishing anything.  That is the
"risk".

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM JF via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full working
> system. It is always bottom up.
>
> This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It may
> never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but
> economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or
> not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".
>
> All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere and
> bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The
> system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is
> interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no
> particular risk in starting something.
>
>
> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate,
> in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will
> bring about negation of gravity".
>
> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing countries
> recognize it.
>
> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond
> any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to
> gain said recognition.
>
> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until
> well after establishment as a country will fail.
>
> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of text
> of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>
> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed,
> such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that
> some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact
> minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more
> likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as
> their primary residence.  Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by
> only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition -
> will fail.
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a particular
>> crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the idea of a
>> "cloud country".
>>
>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>
>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized
>> organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It
>> could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of
>> the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>
>> As for some of the messages:
>>
>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called DAOHaus
>> to create MolochDAOs <https://daohaus.club/>, the answer to "how much
>> money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just
>> a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone
>> could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should,
>> give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs
>> are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and
>> leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the
>> group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent
>> organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
>>
>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be
>> to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually
>> would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we
>> could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the
>> tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene.
>> A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>
>> We could technically do this now.
>>
>>
>>
>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to
>> further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I
>> figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on
>> Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the
>> costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>
>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space,
>> maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>
>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract
>> system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction
>> markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real
>> world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are
>> all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated
>> market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly
>> produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become
>> "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants.
>> Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the
>> arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win,
>> which reveal more information.
>>
>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>
>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first
>> DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most
>> basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do
>> actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making
>> the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation
>> rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite.
>> Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain
>> (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>
>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A
>> futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets,
>> allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it
>> couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information
>> and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good
>> decisions for the organization.
>>
>> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>
>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have
>> viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up
>> until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application
>> work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically
>> is viable.
>>
>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of
>> the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
>> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can
>> completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does,
>> rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions
>> are far more tenable.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From monteluna at protonmail.com  Sun Apr 11 22:31:52 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 22:31:52 +0000
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQSaCLC1DB7pe0RL5wP5Sko6msyY13UcHXoW_ojE=Hskg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <FiDBb8YEHztPRPtH39r7INmtiJYbRgVPedwlMH6lCq5qw88wNJ6PT40ISfP8YA4213-MThzegGM1cJcZEbsY0szLK919DzHcTHU4EDcA41E=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSaCLC1DB7pe0RL5wP5Sko6msyY13UcHXoW_ojE=Hskg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6nVFWnxODtbBLaE3bPqLhxh1YQOegdx_9KK7UI_W2CFL_lM3JLdV2ynHZedx3obB2cXZnbzExz8_gI6D3JS7wpmlgBSfGpJYg1iIyhNpudE=@protonmail.com>

Resources to start a DAO are sub $100. Each user's onboarding would cost somewhere around $10. I would hardly call this that much of a "risk".

I just see this as a solid opportunity to use a technology that's so far proven it's ability to manage capital financing for groups. There are working DAOs now managing billions in capital. If we don't have more realistic utilization of capital focused to real goals for Extropianism, what's the point? We certainly could continue the mailing list, but something more tangible is good here. There's a real technology that has proven it's ability to start building a substrate to grow organizations from. What do we have to lose here?

??????? Original Message ???????
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:52 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> An emergent system needs some working start, some viable subset of the eventual desired state. What is proposed here is far less than that. That's the "at least 10,000-1,000,000 people and some land" - yes, for a country, that is the minimum to bootstrap.
>
> Countries are defined by recognition. Groups with large amounts of financial activity can be international corporations, which are not themselves actually countries.
>
> The virtue of "fail fast" assumes that lessons will be learned from the failures. Failure while refusing to learn from failures - and this proposal is a blatant refusal to acknowledge, let alone learn from, past failures - goes nowhere. This does take resources, so if you commit to this approach, you commit to not accomplishing anything. That is the "risk".
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full working system. It is always bottom up.
>>
>> This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It may never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".
>>
>> All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere and bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no particular risk in starting something.
>>
>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate, in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will bring about negation of gravity".
>>>
>>> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing countries recognize it.
>>>
>>> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to gain said recognition.
>>>
>>> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until well after establishment as a country will fail.
>>>
>>> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of text of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>>>
>>> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed, such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as their primary residence. Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition - will fail.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the idea of a "cloud country".
>>>>
>>>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>>>
>>>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>>>
>>>> As for some of the messages:
>>>>
>>>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called [DAOHaus to create MolochDAOs](https://daohaus.club/), the answer to "how much money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should, give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
>>>>
>>>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene. A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>>>
>>>> We could technically do this now.
>>>>
>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>>>>
>>>>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space, maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants. Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win, which reveal more information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>>>>
>>>>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite. Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>>>>
>>>>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets, allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good decisions for the organization.
>>>>>
>>>>> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>>>>
>>>>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically is viable.
>>>>>
>>>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does, rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions are far more tenable.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 22:42:19 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 15:42:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <6nVFWnxODtbBLaE3bPqLhxh1YQOegdx_9KK7UI_W2CFL_lM3JLdV2ynHZedx3obB2cXZnbzExz8_gI6D3JS7wpmlgBSfGpJYg1iIyhNpudE=@protonmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <FiDBb8YEHztPRPtH39r7INmtiJYbRgVPedwlMH6lCq5qw88wNJ6PT40ISfP8YA4213-MThzegGM1cJcZEbsY0szLK919DzHcTHU4EDcA41E=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSaCLC1DB7pe0RL5wP5Sko6msyY13UcHXoW_ojE=Hskg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6nVFWnxODtbBLaE3bPqLhxh1YQOegdx_9KK7UI_W2CFL_lM3JLdV2ynHZedx3obB2cXZnbzExz8_gI6D3JS7wpmlgBSfGpJYg1iIyhNpudE=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTBp-F57ZJOumskJPstLHi2+3hPsuWCa=2S0-eNgeg73A@mail.gmail.com>

If you think that the $100 + $10 to set up the DAO is all you're risking,
you are hopelessly clueless and badly informed.

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:32 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:

> Resources to start a DAO are sub $100. Each user's onboarding would cost
> somewhere around $10. I would hardly call this that much of a "risk".
>
> I just see this as a solid opportunity to use a technology that's so far
> proven it's ability to manage capital financing for groups. There are
> working DAOs now managing billions in capital. If we don't have more
> realistic utilization of capital focused to real goals for Extropianism,
> what's the point? We certainly could continue the mailing list, but
> something more tangible is good here. There's a real technology that has
> proven it's ability to start building a substrate to grow organizations
> from. What do we have to lose here?
>
>
> ??????? Original Message ???????
> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:52 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> An emergent system needs some working start, some viable subset of the
> eventual desired state.  What is proposed here is far less than that.
> That's the "at least 10,000-1,000,000 people and some land" - yes, for a
> country, that is the minimum to bootstrap.
>
> Countries are defined by recognition.  Groups with large amounts of
> financial activity can be international corporations, which are not
> themselves actually countries.
>
> The virtue of "fail fast" assumes that lessons will be learned from the
> failures.  Failure while refusing to learn from failures - and this
> proposal is a blatant refusal to acknowledge, let alone learn from, past
> failures - goes nowhere.  This does take resources, so if you commit to
> this approach, you commit to not accomplishing anything.  That is the
> "risk".
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM JF via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full
>> working system. It is always bottom up.
>>
>> This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It may
>> never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but
>> economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or
>> not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".
>>
>> All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere and
>> bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The
>> system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is
>> interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no
>> particular risk in starting something.
>>
>>
>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate,
>> in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will
>> bring about negation of gravity".
>>
>> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing
>> countries recognize it.
>>
>> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond
>> any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to
>> gain said recognition.
>>
>> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until
>> well after establishment as a country will fail.
>>
>> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of text
>> of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>>
>> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed,
>> such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that
>> some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact
>> minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more
>> likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as
>> their primary residence.  Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by
>> only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition -
>> will fail.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a
>>> particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the
>>> idea of a "cloud country".
>>>
>>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>>
>>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized
>>> organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It
>>> could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of
>>> the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>>
>>> As for some of the messages:
>>>
>>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called DAOHaus
>>> to create MolochDAOs <https://daohaus.club/>, the answer to "how much
>>> money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just
>>> a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone
>>> could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should,
>>> give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs
>>> are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and
>>> leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the
>>> group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent
>>> organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
>>>
>>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be
>>> to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually
>>> would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we
>>> could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the
>>> tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene.
>>> A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>>
>>> We could technically do this now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to
>>> further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I
>>> figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on
>>> Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the
>>> costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>>
>>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space,
>>> maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>>
>>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract
>>> system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction
>>> markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real
>>> world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are
>>> all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated
>>> market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly
>>> produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become
>>> "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants.
>>> Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the
>>> arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win,
>>> which reveal more information.
>>>
>>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>>
>>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first
>>> DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most
>>> basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do
>>> actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making
>>> the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation
>>> rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite.
>>> Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain
>>> (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>>
>>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A
>>> futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets,
>>> allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it
>>> couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information
>>> and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good
>>> decisions for the organization.
>>>
>>> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>>
>>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have
>>> viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up
>>> until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application
>>> work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically
>>> is viable.
>>>
>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense
>>> of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
>>> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can
>>> completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does,
>>> rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions
>>> are far more tenable.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
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From monteluna at protonmail.com  Sun Apr 11 22:55:08 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 22:55:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTBp-F57ZJOumskJPstLHi2+3hPsuWCa=2S0-eNgeg73A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <FiDBb8YEHztPRPtH39r7INmtiJYbRgVPedwlMH6lCq5qw88wNJ6PT40ISfP8YA4213-MThzegGM1cJcZEbsY0szLK919DzHcTHU4EDcA41E=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSaCLC1DB7pe0RL5wP5Sko6msyY13UcHXoW_ojE=Hskg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6nVFWnxODtbBLaE3bPqLhxh1YQOegdx_9KK7UI_W2CFL_lM3JLdV2ynHZedx3obB2cXZnbzExz8_gI6D3JS7wpmlgBSfGpJYg1iIyhNpudE=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTBp-F57ZJOumskJPstLHi2+3hPsuWCa=2S0-eNgeg73A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <wbDjBqGgqQgZRSmZKA4m-i_wtbZ6G1ggQa7maciI0nfz-ZK0lVGdUS6_Y8FTWSoeGx6YZx0aexFPxlMEIgMTcK6O9i1L_3kjuvOdCIUQntg=@protonmail.com>

Could you elaborate more on what you think it requires? Let's generate signal and not noise. I have actually started a DAO and am an active member of a few, so maybe I am missing something.

What I'm proposing is very clear:

1. Start a DAO using an already generated framework and raise funds. The DAO manages capital with member funds, and members can leave or join at any point.
2. Put together a forum to begin discussing real use cases for the capital.

It's an experiment in and of itself. I agree it can fail. The failure modes area few people who have cryptocurrencies have their money returned, and a few people waste their time. This is only for people who can appropriately judge risks and who want to join. If not, don't.

??????? Original Message ???????
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 6:42 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> If you think that the $100 + $10 to set up the DAO is all you're risking, you are hopelessly clueless and badly informed.
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:32 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Resources to start a DAO are sub $100. Each user's onboarding would cost somewhere around $10. I would hardly call this that much of a "risk".
>>
>> I just see this as a solid opportunity to use a technology that's so far proven it's ability to manage capital financing for groups. There are working DAOs now managing billions in capital. If we don't have more realistic utilization of capital focused to real goals for Extropianism, what's the point? We certainly could continue the mailing list, but something more tangible is good here. There's a real technology that has proven it's ability to start building a substrate to grow organizations from. What do we have to lose here?
>>
>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:52 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> An emergent system needs some working start, some viable subset of the eventual desired state. What is proposed here is far less than that. That's the "at least 10,000-1,000,000 people and some land" - yes, for a country, that is the minimum to bootstrap.
>>>
>>> Countries are defined by recognition. Groups with large amounts of financial activity can be international corporations, which are not themselves actually countries.
>>>
>>> The virtue of "fail fast" assumes that lessons will be learned from the failures. Failure while refusing to learn from failures - and this proposal is a blatant refusal to acknowledge, let alone learn from, past failures - goes nowhere. This does take resources, so if you commit to this approach, you commit to not accomplishing anything. That is the "risk".
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full working system. It is always bottom up.
>>>>
>>>> This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It may never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".
>>>>
>>>> All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere and bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no particular risk in starting something.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate, in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will bring about negation of gravity".
>>>>>
>>>>> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing countries recognize it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to gain said recognition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until well after establishment as a country will fail.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of text of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed, such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as their primary residence. Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition - will fail.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the idea of a "cloud country".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for some of the messages:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called [DAOHaus to create MolochDAOs](https://daohaus.club/), the answer to "how much money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should, give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene. A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We could technically do this now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space, maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants. Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win, which reveal more information.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite. Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets, allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good decisions for the organization.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically is viable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does, rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions are far more tenable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 11 23:09:12 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:09:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <wbDjBqGgqQgZRSmZKA4m-i_wtbZ6G1ggQa7maciI0nfz-ZK0lVGdUS6_Y8FTWSoeGx6YZx0aexFPxlMEIgMTcK6O9i1L_3kjuvOdCIUQntg=@protonmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <FiDBb8YEHztPRPtH39r7INmtiJYbRgVPedwlMH6lCq5qw88wNJ6PT40ISfP8YA4213-MThzegGM1cJcZEbsY0szLK919DzHcTHU4EDcA41E=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSaCLC1DB7pe0RL5wP5Sko6msyY13UcHXoW_ojE=Hskg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6nVFWnxODtbBLaE3bPqLhxh1YQOegdx_9KK7UI_W2CFL_lM3JLdV2ynHZedx3obB2cXZnbzExz8_gI6D3JS7wpmlgBSfGpJYg1iIyhNpudE=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTBp-F57ZJOumskJPstLHi2+3hPsuWCa=2S0-eNgeg73A@mail.gmail.com>
 <wbDjBqGgqQgZRSmZKA4m-i_wtbZ6G1ggQa7maciI0nfz-ZK0lVGdUS6_Y8FTWSoeGx6YZx0aexFPxlMEIgMTcK6O9i1L_3kjuvOdCIUQntg=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSFL_sTihTKXBQ-xWx_zyynZXa7T4nkOKuzGEapx8BhMA@mail.gmail.com>

Before doing any of that, I recommend reading up on previous
microstate/micronation attempts, see why they failed, and do not naively
repeat their mistakes like you are proposing to do.

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:55 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:

> Could you elaborate more on what you think it requires? Let's generate
> signal and not noise. I have actually started a DAO and am an active member
> of a few, so maybe I am missing something.
>
> What I'm proposing is very clear:
>
> 1. Start a DAO using an already generated framework and raise funds. The
> DAO manages capital with member funds, and members can leave or join at any
> point.
> 2. Put together a forum to begin discussing real use cases for the capital.
>
> It's an experiment in and of itself. I agree it can fail. The failure
> modes area few people who have cryptocurrencies have their money returned,
> and a few people waste their time. This is only for people who can
> appropriately judge risks and who want to join. If not, don't.
>
>
>
> ??????? Original Message ???????
> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 6:42 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If you think that the $100 + $10 to set up the DAO is all you're risking,
> you are hopelessly clueless and badly informed.
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:32 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Resources to start a DAO are sub $100. Each user's onboarding would cost
>> somewhere around $10. I would hardly call this that much of a "risk".
>>
>> I just see this as a solid opportunity to use a technology that's so far
>> proven it's ability to manage capital financing for groups. There are
>> working DAOs now managing billions in capital. If we don't have more
>> realistic utilization of capital focused to real goals for Extropianism,
>> what's the point? We certainly could continue the mailing list, but
>> something more tangible is good here. There's a real technology that has
>> proven it's ability to start building a substrate to grow organizations
>> from. What do we have to lose here?
>>
>>
>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:52 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> An emergent system needs some working start, some viable subset of the
>> eventual desired state.  What is proposed here is far less than that.
>> That's the "at least 10,000-1,000,000 people and some land" - yes, for a
>> country, that is the minimum to bootstrap.
>>
>> Countries are defined by recognition.  Groups with large amounts of
>> financial activity can be international corporations, which are not
>> themselves actually countries.
>>
>> The virtue of "fail fast" assumes that lessons will be learned from the
>> failures.  Failure while refusing to learn from failures - and this
>> proposal is a blatant refusal to acknowledge, let alone learn from, past
>> failures - goes nowhere.  This does take resources, so if you commit to
>> this approach, you commit to not accomplishing anything.  That is the
>> "risk".
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM JF via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full
>>> working system. It is always bottom up.
>>>
>>> This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It may
>>> never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but
>>> economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or
>>> not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".
>>>
>>> All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere and
>>> bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The
>>> system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is
>>> interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no
>>> particular risk in starting something.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate,
>>> in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will
>>> bring about negation of gravity".
>>>
>>> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing
>>> countries recognize it.
>>>
>>> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond
>>> any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to
>>> gain said recognition.
>>>
>>> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until
>>> well after establishment as a country will fail.
>>>
>>> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of
>>> text of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>>>
>>> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed,
>>> such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that
>>> some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact
>>> minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more
>>> likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as
>>> their primary residence.  Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by
>>> only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition -
>>> will fail.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a
>>>> particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the
>>>> idea of a "cloud country".
>>>>
>>>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>>>
>>>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized
>>>> organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It
>>>> could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of
>>>> the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>>>
>>>> As for some of the messages:
>>>>
>>>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called DAOHaus
>>>> to create MolochDAOs <https://daohaus.club/>, the answer to "how much
>>>> money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just
>>>> a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone
>>>> could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should,
>>>> give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs
>>>> are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and
>>>> leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the
>>>> group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent
>>>> organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
>>>>
>>>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be
>>>> to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually
>>>> would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we
>>>> could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the
>>>> tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene.
>>>> A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>>>
>>>> We could technically do this now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to
>>>> further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I
>>>> figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on
>>>> Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the
>>>> costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>>>
>>>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space,
>>>> maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>>>
>>>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart
>>>> contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets.
>>>> Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes
>>>> of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports,
>>>> wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an
>>>> automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to
>>>> publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become
>>>> "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants.
>>>> Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the
>>>> arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win,
>>>> which reveal more information.
>>>>
>>>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>>>
>>>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first
>>>> DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most
>>>> basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do
>>>> actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making
>>>> the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation
>>>> rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite.
>>>> Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain
>>>> (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>>>
>>>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A
>>>> futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets,
>>>> allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it
>>>> couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information
>>>> and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good
>>>> decisions for the organization.
>>>>
>>>> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>>>
>>>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have
>>>> viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up
>>>> until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application
>>>> work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically
>>>> is viable.
>>>>
>>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense
>>>> of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
>>>> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can
>>>> completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does,
>>>> rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions
>>>> are far more tenable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Apr  9 16:02:45 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:02:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <ab945bc0-cb4d-c4d3-b8fd-4336c0795979@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-09 08:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> I heard an expression this week that reminds me of my cheerfully 
> misspent childhood: You can?t yell fire in a crowded theatre. 

The phrase has a shameful history.
https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackneyed-apologia-for-censorship-are-enough/

Ironically in light of its source, the metaphor applies more aptly to 
politicians who tell tall tales to stir up war.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Apr 10 01:37:57 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 18:37:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <28fdd226-45eb-b18b-06b5-355295e1c8d6@pobox.com>

You know what they say: men pack for Mars, women pack for Venus.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Apr  9 16:02:45 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 09:02:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] yelling fire
In-Reply-To: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001c01d72d51$d391fd40$7ab5f7c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <ab945bc0-cb4d-c4d3-b8fd-4336c0795979@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-09 08:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> I heard an expression this week that reminds me of my cheerfully 
> misspent childhood: You can?t yell fire in a crowded theatre. 

The phrase has a shameful history.
https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackneyed-apologia-for-censorship-are-enough/

Ironically in light of its source, the metaphor applies more aptly to 
politicians who tell tall tales to stir up war.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From monteluna at protonmail.com  Mon Apr 12 04:56:14 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 04:56:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSFL_sTihTKXBQ-xWx_zyynZXa7T4nkOKuzGEapx8BhMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNTBp-F57ZJOumskJPstLHi2+3hPsuWCa=2S0-eNgeg73A@mail.gmail.com>
 <wbDjBqGgqQgZRSmZKA4m-i_wtbZ6G1ggQa7maciI0nfz-ZK0lVGdUS6_Y8FTWSoeGx6YZx0aexFPxlMEIgMTcK6O9i1L_3kjuvOdCIUQntg=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSFL_sTihTKXBQ-xWx_zyynZXa7T4nkOKuzGEapx8BhMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6tU7i-wml6C-Yit1T0X4m0Aiei8D77LWPKCxR8Zb37G1wlPaR7TVkbN7HDJbSjJCubFFvpP0J4xBXTw2ERHrbcY78S8CRJpiKwcgNARANBM=@protonmail.com>

Sure! Just to clarify, it sounds like we're assuming I want to do this. I don't want to form these things at all right now.

I want to explore why this group isn't using DAOs, Prediction Markets, or Futarchys, and am suggesting to use these tools more.

??????? Original Message ???????
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:09 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Before doing any of that, I recommend reading up on previous microstate/micronation attempts, see why they failed, and do not naively repeat their mistakes like you are proposing to do.
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:55 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Could you elaborate more on what you think it requires? Let's generate signal and not noise. I have actually started a DAO and am an active member of a few, so maybe I am missing something.
>>
>> What I'm proposing is very clear:
>>
>> 1. Start a DAO using an already generated framework and raise funds. The DAO manages capital with member funds, and members can leave or join at any point.
>> 2. Put together a forum to begin discussing real use cases for the capital.
>>
>> It's an experiment in and of itself. I agree it can fail. The failure modes area few people who have cryptocurrencies have their money returned, and a few people waste their time. This is only for people who can appropriately judge risks and who want to join. If not, don't.
>>
>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 6:42 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If you think that the $100 + $10 to set up the DAO is all you're risking, you are hopelessly clueless and badly informed.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:32 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Resources to start a DAO are sub $100. Each user's onboarding would cost somewhere around $10. I would hardly call this that much of a "risk".
>>>>
>>>> I just see this as a solid opportunity to use a technology that's so far proven it's ability to manage capital financing for groups. There are working DAOs now managing billions in capital. If we don't have more realistic utilization of capital focused to real goals for Extropianism, what's the point? We certainly could continue the mailing list, but something more tangible is good here. There's a real technology that has proven it's ability to start building a substrate to grow organizations from. What do we have to lose here?
>>>>
>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:52 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> An emergent system needs some working start, some viable subset of the eventual desired state. What is proposed here is far less than that. That's the "at least 10,000-1,000,000 people and some land" - yes, for a country, that is the minimum to bootstrap.
>>>>>
>>>>> Countries are defined by recognition. Groups with large amounts of financial activity can be international corporations, which are not themselves actually countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> The virtue of "fail fast" assumes that lessons will be learned from the failures. Failure while refusing to learn from failures - and this proposal is a blatant refusal to acknowledge, let alone learn from, past failures - goes nowhere. This does take resources, so if you commit to this approach, you commit to not accomplishing anything. That is the "risk".
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full working system. It is always bottom up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It may never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere and bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no particular risk in starting something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>> On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate, in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will bring about negation of gravity".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing countries recognize it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to gain said recognition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until well after establishment as a country will fail.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of text of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed, such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as their primary residence. Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition - will fail.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the idea of a "cloud country".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for some of the messages:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called [DAOHaus to create MolochDAOs](https://daohaus.club/), the answer to "how much money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should, give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene. A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We could technically do this now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space, maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants. Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win, which reveal more information.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite. Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets, allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good decisions for the organization.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically is viable.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does, rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions are far more tenable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Apr 10 01:37:57 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 18:37:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Packing for Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbXCs1cjUeP7J2HtPvxfGw2QNjcJssWV0n1aic0bH+7eQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <28fdd226-45eb-b18b-06b5-355295e1c8d6@pobox.com>

You know what they say: men pack for Mars, women pack for Venus.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 05:01:51 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 22:01:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <6tU7i-wml6C-Yit1T0X4m0Aiei8D77LWPKCxR8Zb37G1wlPaR7TVkbN7HDJbSjJCubFFvpP0J4xBXTw2ERHrbcY78S8CRJpiKwcgNARANBM=@protonmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTzghSBxgbP1H5UqYxB9CxadhsS2ejASXWDO1MgxVWouQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ah.  Then I repeat my initial answer: because this group mostly doesn't
have enough funds to spare to accomplish any of the goals that those things
would be useful for.  Those of us that do, are somewhat forced to employ
them through more traditional means (such as traditional corporations) due
to who we have to work with to get things done.

Except for prediction markets.  As I recall, some of us have dabbled in
those.

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 9:56 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:

> Sure! Just to clarify, it sounds like we're assuming I want to do this. I
> don't want to form these things at all right now.
>
> I want to explore why this group isn't using DAOs, Prediction Markets, or
> Futarchys, and am suggesting to use these tools more.
>
>
>
> ??????? Original Message ???????
> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:09 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Before doing any of that, I recommend reading up on previous
> microstate/micronation attempts, see why they failed, and do not naively
> repeat their mistakes like you are proposing to do.
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:55 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Could you elaborate more on what you think it requires? Let's generate
>> signal and not noise. I have actually started a DAO and am an active member
>> of a few, so maybe I am missing something.
>>
>> What I'm proposing is very clear:
>>
>> 1. Start a DAO using an already generated framework and raise funds. The
>> DAO manages capital with member funds, and members can leave or join at any
>> point.
>> 2. Put together a forum to begin discussing real use cases for the
>> capital.
>>
>> It's an experiment in and of itself. I agree it can fail. The failure
>> modes area few people who have cryptocurrencies have their money returned,
>> and a few people waste their time. This is only for people who can
>> appropriately judge risks and who want to join. If not, don't.
>>
>>
>>
>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 6:42 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> If you think that the $100 + $10 to set up the DAO is all you're risking,
>> you are hopelessly clueless and badly informed.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:32 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Resources to start a DAO are sub $100. Each user's onboarding would cost
>>> somewhere around $10. I would hardly call this that much of a "risk".
>>>
>>> I just see this as a solid opportunity to use a technology that's so far
>>> proven it's ability to manage capital financing for groups. There are
>>> working DAOs now managing billions in capital. If we don't have more
>>> realistic utilization of capital focused to real goals for Extropianism,
>>> what's the point? We certainly could continue the mailing list, but
>>> something more tangible is good here. There's a real technology that has
>>> proven it's ability to start building a substrate to grow organizations
>>> from. What do we have to lose here?
>>>
>>>
>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:52 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> An emergent system needs some working start, some viable subset of the
>>> eventual desired state.  What is proposed here is far less than that.
>>> That's the "at least 10,000-1,000,000 people and some land" - yes, for a
>>> country, that is the minimum to bootstrap.
>>>
>>> Countries are defined by recognition.  Groups with large amounts of
>>> financial activity can be international corporations, which are not
>>> themselves actually countries.
>>>
>>> The virtue of "fail fast" assumes that lessons will be learned from the
>>> failures.  Failure while refusing to learn from failures - and this
>>> proposal is a blatant refusal to acknowledge, let alone learn from, past
>>> failures - goes nowhere.  This does take resources, so if you commit to
>>> this approach, you commit to not accomplishing anything.  That is the
>>> "risk".
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM JF via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full
>>>> working system. It is always bottom up.
>>>>
>>>> This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It may
>>>> never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but
>>>> economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or
>>>> not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".
>>>>
>>>> All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere
>>>> and bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The
>>>> system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is
>>>> interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no
>>>> particular risk in starting something.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the
>>>> gate, in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity
>>>> will bring about negation of gravity".
>>>>
>>>> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing
>>>> countries recognize it.
>>>>
>>>> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond
>>>> any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to
>>>> gain said recognition.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until
>>>> well after establishment as a country will fail.
>>>>
>>>> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of
>>>> text of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed,
>>>> such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that
>>>> some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact
>>>> minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more
>>>> likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as
>>>> their primary residence.  Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by
>>>> only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition -
>>>> will fail.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a
>>>>> particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the
>>>>> idea of a "cloud country".
>>>>>
>>>>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>>>>
>>>>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized
>>>>> organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It
>>>>> could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of
>>>>> the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for some of the messages:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system
>>>>> called DAOHaus to create MolochDAOs <https://daohaus.club/>, the
>>>>> answer to "how much money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The
>>>>> smart contract is just a system that allows users and mints new tokens
>>>>> based on a vote. Someone could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1.
>>>>> Obviously we could, and should, give more voting rights to people who put
>>>>> in a lot more money. MolochDAOs are also designed to allow people to "burn"
>>>>> their tokens at any point and leave. So if you do supply funding and you
>>>>> don't like the direction the group is going, by all means leave. The goal
>>>>> is to create an emergent organization, so signal dislike and spin off if
>>>>> you would want to.
>>>>>
>>>>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might
>>>>> be to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I
>>>>> actually would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that,
>>>>> maybe we could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like
>>>>> all the tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital
>>>>> money scene. A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>>>>
>>>>> We could technically do this now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system
>>>>> to further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I
>>>>> figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on
>>>>> Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the
>>>>> costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>>>>
>>>>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the
>>>>> space, maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart
>>>>> contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets.
>>>>> Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes
>>>>> of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports,
>>>>> wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an
>>>>> automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to
>>>>> publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become
>>>>> "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants.
>>>>> Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the
>>>>> arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win,
>>>>> which reveal more information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>>>>
>>>>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first
>>>>> DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most
>>>>> basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do
>>>>> actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making
>>>>> the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation
>>>>> rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite.
>>>>> Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain
>>>>> (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>>>>
>>>>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy.
>>>>> A futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets,
>>>>> allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it
>>>>> couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information
>>>>> and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good
>>>>> decisions for the organization.
>>>>>
>>>>> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>>>>
>>>>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have
>>>>> viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up
>>>>> until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application
>>>>> work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically
>>>>> is viable.
>>>>>
>>>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense
>>>>> of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
>>>>> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can
>>>>> completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does,
>>>>> rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions
>>>>> are far more tenable.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 13:08:48 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 09:08:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQa5VbyNkX1OBBkMEtZSr5oQ3OYP=mNzJ4LiGjyBLfqSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQa5VbyNkX1OBBkMEtZSr5oQ3OYP=mNzJ4LiGjyBLfqSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cS+ZZVdmY0FbdLXjWMydVKbBvaJ6a9540ueJMcOg46Eg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 11:03 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 6:24 AM JF via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of
>> the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
>> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds.
>>
>
> If only there were enough funds available to matter.  A few thousand
> dollars, if even that much, does not enable much action on the goals we
> seek.
>

Sure, it'd be awesome to have millions to play with. But advocacy can be
effective with much less capital. Extropy.org is pretty much a zombie at
the moment. It'd be nice to breathe some life into it, or something like it.

It'd also be fun just to try something new.

-Dave
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 17:36:04 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 01:36:04 +0800
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cS+ZZVdmY0FbdLXjWMydVKbBvaJ6a9540ueJMcOg46Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQa5VbyNkX1OBBkMEtZSr5oQ3OYP=mNzJ4LiGjyBLfqSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cS+ZZVdmY0FbdLXjWMydVKbBvaJ6a9540ueJMcOg46Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3VRgicXOcgFVmQ2RaC0=VOgDPc-ruXu8aFEHEdDH_iXg@mail.gmail.com>

   JF wrote:
"Any member who commits clearly is interested in creating something and
doing real actions. There's no particular risk in starting something."


Dave Sill wrote:


"Sure, it'd be awesome to have millions to play with. But advocacy can be
effective with much less capital. Extropy.org is pretty much a zombie at
the moment. It'd be nice to breathe some life into it, or something like it.

It'd also be fun just to try something new."

Yes, exactly!

Creating a cyber-nation can wait, but making up a DAO would be a fun
project, even if it does not become a big success for us. And you never
know...

Let's do it!

Spike, are you with us?

John  :  )
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Apr 12 17:40:05 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:40:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTzghSBxgbP1H5UqYxB9CxadhsS2ejASXWDO1MgxVWouQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
 <gDKHZWqWF9MY2SR3itg79QgGLxjvifTEKvIyfMXhrkYYs1SBQepIIo9J7BJkexP1P9jX7bDHacQeIvJMcO6JArDTcrMsZ3p_bafJpmuywUI=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS-UAxQckec76M=7Zs46CRAAGfu33bJCCGzGEHADimafQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <FiDBb8YEHztPRPtH39r7INmtiJYbRgVPedwlMH6lCq5qw88wNJ6PT40ISfP8YA4213-MThzegGM1cJcZEbsY0szLK919DzHcTHU4EDcA41E=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQSaCLC1DB7pe0RL5wP5Sko6msyY13UcHXoW_ojE=Hskg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6nVFWnxODtbBLaE3bPqLhxh1YQOegdx_9KK7UI_W2CFL_lM3JLdV2ynHZedx3obB2cXZnbzExz8_gI6D3JS7wpmlgBSfGpJYg1iIyhNpudE=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTBp-F57ZJOumskJPstLHi2+3hPsuWCa=2S0-eNgeg73A@mail.gmail.com>
 <wbDjBqGgqQgZRSmZKA4m-i_wtbZ6G1ggQa7maciI0nfz-ZK0lVGdUS6_Y8FTWSoeGx6YZx0aexFPxlMEIgMTcK6O9i1L_3kjuvOdCIUQntg=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSFL_sTihTKXBQ-xWx_zyynZXa7T4nkOKuzGEapx8BhMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6tU7i-wml6C-Yit1T0X4m0Aiei8D77LWPKCxR8Zb37G1wlPaR7TVkbN7HDJbSjJCubFFvpP0J4xBXTw2ERHrbcY78S8CRJpiKwcgNARANBM=@protonmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTzghSBxgbP1H5UqYxB9CxadhsS2ejASXWDO1MgxVWouQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS25o7CaCMLWgu1P01=HYy3p69bCOLMefMg0W_E2Ac9Ww@mail.gmail.com>

For a larger context, the answer can be boiled down to one word: trust.

People with money do not trust DAOs and futarchies, which is why they do
not use them.

For the most part, this lack of trust comes from lack of experience and
exposure: they have not heard of DAOs and futarchies.

In too many cases, when they have heard of them, DAOs and futarchies came
across as ways to let other people spend their money, with no clear benefit
to them.

Obviously, this was a non-starter if you consider the "no clear benefit to
them" part, which was an issue both of bad communication and of confusing
"benefits in general" with "benefits specifically to the one person who
actually provides the funds".  In many cases, it was portrayed as them
providing essentially all the funds while everyone else provided nothing
more than wishes: no expertise, no well-thought-out ideas, and no funding
of their own.

Prediction markets have had public demonstrations - starting with just play
money but still achieving some results, which was enough to then
demonstrate with small amounts of real money (which, arguably, is where
they still are now) - and have been shown to attract funds from multiple
parties, such that any one funding source did not bear all the risk.  It is
possible that one would have to have similar examples of DAOs and
futarchies which produced measurably better results than corporations or
other traditional means of achieving these ends.

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 10:01 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ah.  Then I repeat my initial answer: because this group mostly doesn't
> have enough funds to spare to accomplish any of the goals that those things
> would be useful for.  Those of us that do, are somewhat forced to employ
> them through more traditional means (such as traditional corporations) due
> to who we have to work with to get things done.
>
> Except for prediction markets.  As I recall, some of us have dabbled in
> those.
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 9:56 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sure! Just to clarify, it sounds like we're assuming I want to do this. I
>> don't want to form these things at all right now.
>>
>> I want to explore why this group isn't using DAOs, Prediction Markets, or
>> Futarchys, and am suggesting to use these tools more.
>>
>>
>>
>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:09 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Before doing any of that, I recommend reading up on previous
>> microstate/micronation attempts, see why they failed, and do not naively
>> repeat their mistakes like you are proposing to do.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:55 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Could you elaborate more on what you think it requires? Let's generate
>>> signal and not noise. I have actually started a DAO and am an active member
>>> of a few, so maybe I am missing something.
>>>
>>> What I'm proposing is very clear:
>>>
>>> 1. Start a DAO using an already generated framework and raise funds. The
>>> DAO manages capital with member funds, and members can leave or join at any
>>> point.
>>> 2. Put together a forum to begin discussing real use cases for the
>>> capital.
>>>
>>> It's an experiment in and of itself. I agree it can fail. The failure
>>> modes area few people who have cryptocurrencies have their money returned,
>>> and a few people waste their time. This is only for people who can
>>> appropriately judge risks and who want to join. If not, don't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 6:42 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you think that the $100 + $10 to set up the DAO is all you're
>>> risking, you are hopelessly clueless and badly informed.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:32 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Resources to start a DAO are sub $100. Each user's onboarding would
>>>> cost somewhere around $10. I would hardly call this that much of a "risk".
>>>>
>>>> I just see this as a solid opportunity to use a technology that's so
>>>> far proven it's ability to manage capital financing for groups. There are
>>>> working DAOs now managing billions in capital. If we don't have more
>>>> realistic utilization of capital focused to real goals for Extropianism,
>>>> what's the point? We certainly could continue the mailing list, but
>>>> something more tangible is good here. There's a real technology that has
>>>> proven it's ability to start building a substrate to grow organizations
>>>> from. What do we have to lose here?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:52 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> An emergent system needs some working start, some viable subset of the
>>>> eventual desired state.  What is proposed here is far less than that.
>>>> That's the "at least 10,000-1,000,000 people and some land" - yes, for a
>>>> country, that is the minimum to bootstrap.
>>>>
>>>> Countries are defined by recognition.  Groups with large amounts of
>>>> financial activity can be international corporations, which are not
>>>> themselves actually countries.
>>>>
>>>> The virtue of "fail fast" assumes that lessons will be learned from the
>>>> failures.  Failure while refusing to learn from failures - and this
>>>> proposal is a blatant refusal to acknowledge, let alone learn from, past
>>>> failures - goes nowhere.  This does take resources, so if you commit to
>>>> this approach, you commit to not accomplishing anything.  That is the
>>>> "risk".
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM JF via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full
>>>>> working system. It is always bottom up.
>>>>>
>>>>> This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It
>>>>> may never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but
>>>>> economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or
>>>>> not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".
>>>>>
>>>>> All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere
>>>>> and bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The
>>>>> system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is
>>>>> interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no
>>>>> particular risk in starting something.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the
>>>>> gate, in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity
>>>>> will bring about negation of gravity".
>>>>>
>>>>> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing
>>>>> countries recognize it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven,
>>>>> beyond any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting
>>>>> requirement to gain said recognition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until
>>>>> well after establishment as a country will fail.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of
>>>>> text of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be
>>>>> constructed, such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in
>>>>> territory that some other major nation claims) and a large number of people
>>>>> (the exact minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme
>>>>> minimum to a more likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically
>>>>> inhabit that land as their primary residence.  Any attempt to skimp either
>>>>> of these - say, by only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to
>>>>> get recognition - will fail.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a
>>>>>> particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the
>>>>>> idea of a "cloud country".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized
>>>>>> organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It
>>>>>> could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of
>>>>>> the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for some of the messages:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system
>>>>>> called DAOHaus to create MolochDAOs <https://daohaus.club/>, the
>>>>>> answer to "how much money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The
>>>>>> smart contract is just a system that allows users and mints new tokens
>>>>>> based on a vote. Someone could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1.
>>>>>> Obviously we could, and should, give more voting rights to people who put
>>>>>> in a lot more money. MolochDAOs are also designed to allow people to "burn"
>>>>>> their tokens at any point and leave. So if you do supply funding and you
>>>>>> don't like the direction the group is going, by all means leave. The goal
>>>>>> is to create an emergent organization, so signal dislike and spin off if
>>>>>> you would want to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might
>>>>>> be to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I
>>>>>> actually would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that,
>>>>>> maybe we could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like
>>>>>> all the tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital
>>>>>> money scene. A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We could technically do this now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system
>>>>>> to further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I
>>>>>> figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on
>>>>>> Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the
>>>>>> costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the
>>>>>> space, maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart
>>>>>> contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets.
>>>>>> Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes
>>>>>> of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports,
>>>>>> wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an
>>>>>> automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to
>>>>>> publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become
>>>>>> "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants.
>>>>>> Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the
>>>>>> arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win,
>>>>>> which reveal more information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first
>>>>>> DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most
>>>>>> basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do
>>>>>> actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making
>>>>>> the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation
>>>>>> rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite.
>>>>>> Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain
>>>>>> (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy.
>>>>>> A futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets,
>>>>>> allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it
>>>>>> couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information
>>>>>> and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good
>>>>>> decisions for the organization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read More:
>>>>>> https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have
>>>>>> viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up
>>>>>> until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application
>>>>>> work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically
>>>>>> is viable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a
>>>>>> sense of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion,
>>>>>> but we now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We
>>>>>> can completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does,
>>>>>> rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions
>>>>>> are far more tenable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 13 22:53:36 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 17:53:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] great book
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEapi-RHdcZF+DRE7dxtJGF88DSRbSoDOkQq9k6aDNfJJw@mail.gmail.com>

'Science Left Behind' (subtitle -feelgood fallacies and the rise of the
antiscientific left)- 2012, though I did not read anything that seemed out
of date.

I learned tons about politics and personality.  This book is for
libertarians, liberals, and conservatives.  Progressives are relently
smashed.  In fact, you could say truthfully that the book was written about
progressives.  It was also written to combat fallacies holding true science
back.  Addressing climate change, gender differences, solar energy, fossil
fuels, organic foods  - and much more.  If you don't learn a lot you are
spectacularly up on everything.  bill w
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 13:00:28 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:00:28 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Unsuspecting Grandmother in Black Coat Mistaken for 'Plague
 Doctor' in Scotland
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0rvEmQ1LZBnmQpkA2k91BT_TiDtfhK0dyCpbdHqM8sPQ@mail.gmail.com>

"A grandmother in Scotland was inadvertently swept up in the phantom plague
doctor craze
<https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/plague-doctor-craze-sweeps-across-uk/>
that has gripped the United Kingdom when a bewildered witness mistook her
for one of the menacing strangers due to her long black coat. The weird
case of mistaken identity reportedly
<https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/6943530/scots-plague-doctor-innocent-gran-black-coat/>
occurred last week in the city of Newton Stewart as Jean Matheson was
innocently going about her business while clad in what is apparently one of
her favorite overcoats. Unbeknownst to her at the time, a concerned
resident caught sight of her from behind and was convinced that the
community was the latest to be visited by the eerie 'plague doctors' that
have been popping up throughout the United Kingdom."

https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/unsuspecting-grandmother-in-black-coat-mistaken-for-plague-doctor-in-scotland/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 13:02:32 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:02:32 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Watch: Lightning Strike Shatters Tree in Seconds
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1M_oxzuwz5RE=TLkvfw8vGF6aH9r3tAjkU8nkoFw8H4Q@mail.gmail.com>

"An amazing piece of security camera footage from a high school in
Wisconsin shows a lightning strike shattering a sizeable tree in seconds.
According to a local media report
<https://www.wbay.com/2021/04/09/need-2-see-lightning-strike-makes-timber-of-tree-at-wautoma-high-school/>,
the jaw-dropping event occurred during a storm on Thursday morning in the
city of Wautoma. As students were preparing to take a test, they were
shaken from their studies by a monstrous thunder clap seemingly coming from
right outside the school. The discovery of a downed tree near the building
and a subsequent check of the security camera footage led them to find the
stunning scene that had been captured on film."

https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/watch-lightning-strike-shatters-tree-in-seconds/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 13:16:05 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:16:05 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Eric Hoffer quotes
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1nqDknmwsi3pVuSJoBJ0dpYdgnJe6gdUosJUnSRY6hUQ@mail.gmail.com>

 To learn we need a certain degree of confidence, not too much and not too
little. If we have too little we will think we can't learn; If we have too
much we will think we don't have to learn.
The only way to predict the future is to have power to shape the future.
In times of change learners inherit the earth; while the learned find
themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer
exists. Eric
Hoffer - 1902-1983 - Author-Philosopher who wrote the classic work, "The
True Believer."    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hoffer
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 13:32:39 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:32:39 +0800
Subject: [ExI] LEGO Worked With NASA To Create Its Most Detailed Space
 Shuttle Discovery Set Yet
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3eNt9cZrdMBZjahOorVMDnau_+76MtBvjZm=MSJp_nCQ@mail.gmail.com>

I can't get over that Hubble was deployed back in 1991, and that the space
shuttles are now ancient history. But with a resurgent China now committed
to a very active space program, the rivalry created by it should get NASA
and American private enterprise moving forward out of a desire to not be
left behind... I hope to see within my lifetime a permanent U.S./allies
Moonbase, and a manned mission to Mars. I suppose there will be two big
manned missions to Mars, one by China, and the other by the U.S. and her
allies.

"Over three decades ago, NASA's STS-31 mission saw the Space Shuttle
Discovery launch and bring with it the iconic Hubble Space Telescope. The
Hubble is still orbiting the Earth today, and it continues to beam back
images of our universe to help us understand more about the cosmos. To
celebrate all of the time the telescope has spent among the stars, LEGO
<https://rstyle.me/+NUIRbcZx3Y8jw9fe4ZKInw> has developed a new Space
Shuttle Discovery set
<https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news/2021/march/lego-nasa-discovery-space-shuttle>
in collaboration with NASA."

https://mymodernmet.com/lego-space-shuttle-discovery/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 14:04:38 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 22:04:38 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The Psychology of Jeff Bezos and the 10,000-Year Clock
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1BRG6EJStB4tFjfSEFS4wZQo+gNBqdgQqzXg2rs=UGFg@mail.gmail.com>

"It?s difficult enough to empathize with our future selves. What about
empathizing with future others? People years into the future who haven?t
been born yet and whom we?ll never meet? People, who necessarily only exist
in our imaginations?

If we are to design a more sustainable future, we must believe the future
exists. An inability to connect with future generations provides a key
obstacle to this. Like Johnny Cash, the spiritual
<https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/spirituality> fox, creatives
across various mediums are trying to reshape how we think.

Often, this means creating artistic works that won?t be enjoyed until way
into the future. The ultimate distillation of this might be Jeff Bezos'
investment in the 10,000-Year Clock. Before we get there, however, let's
take a deeper look at what future thinking looks like a little more near
term."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-brain-and-value/202104/the-psychology-jeff-bezos-and-the-10000-year-clock
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From natasha at natashavita-more.com  Sun Apr  4 17:42:51 2021
From: natasha at natashavita-more.com (Natasha natashavita-more.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 17:42:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Max More on The Proactionary Principle Today on Live on
 YouTube!
Message-ID: <CY4PR2201MB1125660483ECEEB30EB83E1B87789@CY4PR2201MB1125.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

[cid:97622e40-f650-453b-85b5-05712745faf3]
Watch and listen at YouTube!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4q9gPlGAY<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4q9gPlGAY&fbclid=IwAR0izSFZcFN1JvpgU5IwNwmI3mmlFyAcXm3cQdrHXW42RXfymVZzAaIWp3E>

Thank you Dan and USTP for hosting!
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 21:38:11 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 14:38:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Max More on The Proactionary Principle Today on Live on
 YouTube!
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR2201MB1125660483ECEEB30EB83E1B87789@CY4PR2201MB1125.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY4PR2201MB1125660483ECEEB30EB83E1B87789@CY4PR2201MB1125.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR2K3M+chbi5dY+b-GJT=eV2ebiC_fzgP-A9EKk=s4xpg@mail.gmail.com>

Skip to 35:50 to hear Max.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 10:24 AM Natasha natashavita-more.com via
extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Watch and listen at YouTube!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4q9gPlGAY
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4q9gPlGAY&fbclid=IwAR0izSFZcFN1JvpgU5IwNwmI3mmlFyAcXm3cQdrHXW42RXfymVZzAaIWp3E>
>
> Thank you Dan and USTP for hosting!
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Apr 14 23:49:44 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:49:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] LEGO Worked With NASA To Create Its Most Detailed Space
 Shuttle Discovery Set Yet
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3eNt9cZrdMBZjahOorVMDnau_+76MtBvjZm=MSJp_nCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3eNt9cZrdMBZjahOorVMDnau_+76MtBvjZm=MSJp_nCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQRy_mvLAxtNRwUY7-nsSpvN9Gmwp-Knipz7iuREcNa8Q@mail.gmail.com>

> permanent U.S./allies Moonbase

When the sun turns into a red giant in a few billion years and scoops up
the Earth - and the Moon with it - won't that likely cause survivability
issues for a base on the Moon?  :P

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 6:30 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I can't get over that Hubble was deployed back in 1991, and that the space
> shuttles are now ancient history. But with a resurgent China now committed
> to a very active space program, the rivalry created by it should get NASA
> and American private enterprise moving forward out of a desire to not be
> left behind... I hope to see within my lifetime a permanent U.S./allies
> Moonbase, and a manned mission to Mars. I suppose there will be two big
> manned missions to Mars, one by China, and the other by the U.S. and her
> allies.
>
> "Over three decades ago, NASA's STS-31 mission saw the Space Shuttle
> Discovery launch and bring with it the iconic Hubble Space Telescope. The
> Hubble is still orbiting the Earth today, and it continues to beam back
> images of our universe to help us understand more about the cosmos. To
> celebrate all of the time the telescope has spent among the stars, LEGO
> <https://rstyle.me/+NUIRbcZx3Y8jw9fe4ZKInw> has developed a new Space
> Shuttle Discovery set
> <https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news/2021/march/lego-nasa-discovery-space-shuttle>
> in collaboration with NASA."
>
> https://mymodernmet.com/lego-space-shuttle-discovery/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 00:46:40 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 19:46:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] LEGO Worked With NASA To Create Its Most Detailed Space
 Shuttle Discovery Set Yet
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQRy_mvLAxtNRwUY7-nsSpvN9Gmwp-Knipz7iuREcNa8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3eNt9cZrdMBZjahOorVMDnau_+76MtBvjZm=MSJp_nCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQRy_mvLAxtNRwUY7-nsSpvN9Gmwp-Knipz7iuREcNa8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaLKP8V+WNyQ66jDNdMqcCyjyjeRcEtsGQgGmOFR1oOFw@mail.gmail.com>

In a few billion years we'll likely be able to move the moon.  Remember
'spindizzy'?  (Cities in Flight - Blish)  bill w

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 6:55 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> > permanent U.S./allies Moonbase
>
> When the sun turns into a red giant in a few billion years and scoops up
> the Earth - and the Moon with it - won't that likely cause survivability
> issues for a base on the Moon?  :P
>
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 6:30 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I can't get over that Hubble was deployed back in 1991, and that the
>> space shuttles are now ancient history. But with a resurgent China now
>> committed to a very active space program, the rivalry created by it should
>> get NASA and American private enterprise moving forward out of a desire to
>> not be left behind... I hope to see within my lifetime a permanent
>> U.S./allies Moonbase, and a manned mission to Mars. I suppose there will be
>> two big manned missions to Mars, one by China, and the other by the U.S.
>> and her allies.
>>
>> "Over three decades ago, NASA's STS-31 mission saw the Space Shuttle
>> Discovery launch and bring with it the iconic Hubble Space Telescope. The
>> Hubble is still orbiting the Earth today, and it continues to beam back
>> images of our universe to help us understand more about the cosmos. To
>> celebrate all of the time the telescope has spent among the stars, LEGO
>> <https://rstyle.me/+NUIRbcZx3Y8jw9fe4ZKInw> has developed a new Space
>> Shuttle Discovery set
>> <https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news/2021/march/lego-nasa-discovery-space-shuttle>
>> in collaboration with NASA."
>>
>> https://mymodernmet.com/lego-space-shuttle-discovery/
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 00:46:49 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 00:46:49 +0000
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZx8schovPZGGSpYEERPmFLMT2fdFnTEuxuNkLheTDUCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYffUJRykm_AzQ3c3TpZkwq9WRh8CdD0ULvZ_PfEq1HoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D61CB78-18A1-4EE2-9C15-A62F40DBAA16@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZx8schovPZGGSpYEERPmFLMT2fdFnTEuxuNkLheTDUCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACB7g27M1435NtKTfekUwGCo5UutsWdTj0RfRdfc=dtj6w1apw@mail.gmail.com>

While this sounds like a great comeback, the problem is both the cases
I mentioned had huge effects on the growth of government. I can
multiply examples, but the point still stands. This is why I made my
parenthetical comment that you've tried to turn around:

'This isn?t to say every last thing the Court has done has been bad,
but ignoring the bad ? and there are more bad cases than the two very
serious ones I mentioned ? here is no more cherry-picking.'

And looking at the track record of the Supreme Court overall while not
easy doesn't seem to yield a record of just a few bad decisions
peppered in a sea of good ones. Instead, it seems to vary over time
depending on the mix of justices and the overall culture. (Look at
Fourth Amendment cases, for instance. They're all over the place from
limiting police power to giving them carte blanche depending on the
case.) This means, to me, that the Supreme Court isn't really special
and somehow impervious to outside influences. The same applies more
broadly to the Constitution. To see either as a reliable brake on
power is really magical thinking in the political/legal realm. Again,
this isn't to say it never does good work -- just to point out that it
often does really bad work, bad in the sense that leaves a big impact
over a long time. Those Natives who tried to use the courts to keep
their land aren't just a minor outcome.

You might say maybe this is the best that can be done inside the ambit
of, say, having a national government. I'm not so sure. And I'm
definitely not sure that we must remain inside that ambit. One thing
you might consider, since it seems you (and Spike) don't want any
radical changes is to look at the makeup of who gets on the federal
courts. Most federal judges are former prosecutors. All things being
equal, one might expect it'd be a near even mix between former
prosecutors and former defense attorneys, btu the ratios are way off:

https://www.cato.org/commentary/there-are-way-too-many-prosecutors-federal-judiciary

Note that if this is true, the ratio is 4 to 1 or greater -- former
prosecutors to former defense attorneys. That's got to create a huge
bias in the system, don't you think? I'm sure you don't believe the
Constitution or whatnot somehow attenuates in an effective way the
biases resulting from this imbalance. Wouldn't the obvious remedy here
be to shift appointments to former defense attorneys -- and probably
do this for years to come to address the previous imbalance?

Regards,

Dan

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 4:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Cherrypicking some awful Supreme Court decisions does not invalidate the role they have played in keeping us, mostly, to the promises involved in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.   It's impossible to say just how important they have been but the contributions they have made are significant.  bill w
>
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:35 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Apr 7, 2021, at 4:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> Dan, you make it sound like the Supreme Court is a useless institution.  Bill W
>>
>> I?m not sure where you?re going to go with that. Spike seems to think the Constitution prevents tyranny among many other things. Are you arguing that it does this via the Supreme Court? That?s a problem in the two cases I mentioned. With regard to the Sedition Act, the Supreme did nothing because judicial review hadn?t been established. (Interesting that the Constitution was ratified in 1788, but judicial review wasn?t established until 1803. In fact, judicial review isn?t explicitly in the Constitution. It?s an interpretation of Article VI based on an 1803 ruling.)
>>
>> The Supreme Court also had some strange rulings with regard to indigenous peoples. One merely has to look at the sad history Indian removal and treaty violations. Per the Constitutions treaties are not supposed to be set aside, but the history Indian treaties is one of exactly that. It merely shows that the powerful do what they want when the weak have only a constitution or a treaty to guard them. To pretend otherwise overlooks the entire history of the US in its treatment of indigenous peoples. (This isn?t to say every last thing the Court has done has been bad, but ignoring the bad ? and there are more bad cases than the two very serious ones I mentioned ? here is no more cherry-picking.)
>>
>> Also, none of this is really new here. I?ve argued these points here and elsewhere before. The usual outcome is my comments are ignored and then at a later date similar points (ones of praising the Constitution) are made as if my comments had never been made before. (I only repeat my criticisms in hopes that some here understand them, but I don?t expect much. Also, none of my criticisms are all that original. Other libertarians ? George H. Smith, Roderick Long, Sheldon Richman, Michael Huemer ? made much the same criticisms decades ago. I?d expect people who claim to be libertarians and especially who are older than me to know something of this ? that it wouldn?t come as a shock whether they agreed with my criticisms or not.)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 01:08:28 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 01:08:28 +0000
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <001401d72ce5$2c1f9840$845ec8c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYffUJRykm_AzQ3c3TpZkwq9WRh8CdD0ULvZ_PfEq1HoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7D61CB78-18A1-4EE2-9C15-A62F40DBAA16@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZx8schovPZGGSpYEERPmFLMT2fdFnTEuxuNkLheTDUCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001401d72ce5$2c1f9840$845ec8c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACB7g279G11wKbkz1FEgHJ8gezDUGCuu_KencWfcg6TitwAAew@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. I pointed to Indian [that
is, indigenous peoples in North America] removal as an example where
the Court ruled one way, but it didn't matter. The removal happened
with then president Andrew Jackson supporting it. My point in bringing
this particular example up was that it had a far reaching result: the
dispossession of thousands of people of their lands, basically
ethnically cleansing Georgia and other states of many of these people.
It also showed how even when the high court ruled in favor, the rest
of the federal government simply ignored this. So much for the power
of the Constitution and the Court to put a break on tyranny. Or is
your view that tyranny is fine as long as it happens to non-citizens?

And one need only look at later federal treatment of indigenous
peoples to see that the 1924 case to see that there was still abuse of
indigenous peoples. Again, a big blow to the view that the
Constitution restrains tyranny. Instead, it's basically a tool that
might be used for good or ill, depending on who's in power, public
opinion, and the wider culture.

Regards,

Dan

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 2:11 AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> >?The Supreme Court also had some strange rulings with regard to indigenous peoples.
>
> US Constitution, Amendment 14, section 2, ratified 1868:
>
> Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed?
>
> Native Americans were not universally made US citizens until 1924.
>
> spike


From monteluna at protonmail.com  Thu Apr 15 01:53:27 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 01:53:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS25o7CaCMLWgu1P01=HYy3p69bCOLMefMg0W_E2Ac9Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <WnGmKsKILd0nFI6N80sD-ccAoR0JLZSDFv8fbl7i1ZlkjcrV7Wiq_Pm2MQVq8uM-ztpiP5pr2dxJcfvKOwfhF4BW3Q7hrjBwOn_qVyc_Wto=@protonmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNSFL_sTihTKXBQ-xWx_zyynZXa7T4nkOKuzGEapx8BhMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6tU7i-wml6C-Yit1T0X4m0Aiei8D77LWPKCxR8Zb37G1wlPaR7TVkbN7HDJbSjJCubFFvpP0J4xBXTw2ERHrbcY78S8CRJpiKwcgNARANBM=@protonmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CKLrYtUr-lelgx17pbNpeB24prbbIwzR2h6XAr5eeZyi15GyIXH013j8P7JTwZMuuawlCaUIw8CYUCymB_lYhqrzsfWPKoUkVm0ZJ4pNV9o=@protonmail.com>

Interesting. I used PMs during the Presidential Race and it was great.

For example, I think using Augur or Omen for discussions could help. I look for example at certain email posts telling news, but it usually has some kind of prediction.

Why don't we take a particular topic, and look for a measurable effect or outcome, then encourage prediction markets for it. First you drive more information into these engines and synthesize it.

Second, you make money if you're right.

For example, one that's interesting now: "Will Kim Potter be charged with First Degree Murder charges for the death of Donte Wright?" We could get this started right now.

I'm actually all for information markets like this, especially when they reveal public opinion.

Sent from ProtonMail mobile

-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 12, 2021, 1:40 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> For a larger context, the answer can be boiled down to one word: trust.
>
> People with money do not trust DAOs and futarchies, which is why they do not use them.
>
> For the most part, this lack of trust comes from lack of experience and exposure: they have not heard of DAOs and futarchies.
>
> In too many cases, when they have heard of them, DAOs and futarchies came across as ways to let other people spend their money, with no clear benefit to them.
>
> Obviously, this was a non-starter if you consider the "no clear benefit to them" part, which was an issue both of bad communication and of confusing "benefits in general" with "benefits specifically to the one person who actually provides the funds". In many cases, it was portrayed as them providing essentially all the funds while everyone else provided nothing more than wishes: no expertise, no well-thought-out ideas, and no funding of their own.
>
> Prediction markets have had public demonstrations - starting with just play money but still achieving some results, which was enough to then demonstrate with small amounts of real money (which, arguably, is where they still are now) - and have been shown to attract funds from multiple parties, such that any one funding source did not bear all the risk. It is possible that one would have to have similar examples of DAOs and futarchies which produced measurably better results than corporations or other traditional means of achieving these ends.
>
> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 10:01 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah. Then I repeat my initial answer: because this group mostly doesn't have enough funds to spare to accomplish any of the goals that those things would be useful for. Those of us that do, are somewhat forced to employ them through more traditional means (such as traditional corporations) due to who we have to work with to get things done.
>>
>> Except for prediction markets. As I recall, some of us have dabbled in those.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 9:56 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sure! Just to clarify, it sounds like we're assuming I want to do this. I don't want to form these things at all right now.
>>>
>>> I want to explore why this group isn't using DAOs, Prediction Markets, or Futarchys, and am suggesting to use these tools more.
>>>
>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 7:09 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Before doing any of that, I recommend reading up on previous microstate/micronation attempts, see why they failed, and do not naively repeat their mistakes like you are proposing to do.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:55 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Could you elaborate more on what you think it requires? Let's generate signal and not noise. I have actually started a DAO and am an active member of a few, so maybe I am missing something.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I'm proposing is very clear:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Start a DAO using an already generated framework and raise funds. The DAO manages capital with member funds, and members can leave or join at any point.
>>>>> 2. Put together a forum to begin discussing real use cases for the capital.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's an experiment in and of itself. I agree it can fail. The failure modes area few people who have cryptocurrencies have their money returned, and a few people waste their time. This is only for people who can appropriately judge risks and who want to join. If not, don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 6:42 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that the $100 + $10 to set up the DAO is all you're risking, you are hopelessly clueless and badly informed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 3:32 PM JF <monteluna at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Resources to start a DAO are sub $100. Each user's onboarding would cost somewhere around $10. I would hardly call this that much of a "risk".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just see this as a solid opportunity to use a technology that's so far proven it's ability to manage capital financing for groups. There are working DAOs now managing billions in capital. If we don't have more realistic utilization of capital focused to real goals for Extropianism, what's the point? We certainly could continue the mailing list, but something more tangible is good here. There's a real technology that has proven it's ability to start building a substrate to grow organizations from. What do we have to lose here?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 5:52 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An emergent system needs some working start, some viable subset of the eventual desired state. What is proposed here is far less than that. That's the "at least 10,000-1,000,000 people and some land" - yes, for a country, that is the minimum to bootstrap.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Countries are defined by recognition. Groups with large amounts of financial activity can be international corporations, which are not themselves actually countries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The virtue of "fail fast" assumes that lessons will be learned from the failures. Failure while refusing to learn from failures - and this proposal is a blatant refusal to acknowledge, let alone learn from, past failures - goes nowhere. This does take resources, so if you commit to this approach, you commit to not accomplishing anything. That is the "risk".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 2:33 PM JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You're right, but an emergent system almost never starts at a full working system. It is always bottom up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This organization would not be a formal country for a long time. It may never. Frankly I don't think countries are defined by recognition, but economic market activity. Regardless if an organization is a country or not, if it has enough economic activity, it will be a "thing".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All of this is moot though. The strategic goal is to start somewhere and bootstrap, and set up a system to fail fast for experiments sake. The system is opt-in and anyone can leave. Any member who commits clearly is interested in creating something and doing real actions. There's no particular risk in starting something.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 11, 2021, 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate, in the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will bring about negation of gravity".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing countries recognize it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to gain said recognition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until well after establishment as a country will fail.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of text of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed, such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as their primary residence. Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition - will fail.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a particular crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the idea of a "cloud country".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for some of the messages:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called [DAOHaus to create MolochDAOs](https://daohaus.club/), the answer to "how much money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should, give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be to collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene. A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We could technically do this now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ??????? Original Message ???????
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the costs down, making this idea more viable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space, maybe a rough history would suffice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants. Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win, which reveal more information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite. Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets, allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good decisions for the organization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically is viable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does, rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions are far more tenable.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From emerhorne at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 10:55:28 2021
From: emerhorne at gmail.com (Tristan Linck)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 06:55:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] LEGO Worked With NASA To Create Its Most Detailed Space
 Shuttle Discovery Set Yet
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaLKP8V+WNyQ66jDNdMqcCyjyjeRcEtsGQgGmOFR1oOFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3eNt9cZrdMBZjahOorVMDnau_+76MtBvjZm=MSJp_nCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQRy_mvLAxtNRwUY7-nsSpvN9Gmwp-Knipz7iuREcNa8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaLKP8V+WNyQ66jDNdMqcCyjyjeRcEtsGQgGmOFR1oOFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL59sdqwUKH_vBDfkegJ1A5aLCA81h+5UWhmNCKUED8iMQmi9Q@mail.gmail.com>

That pushes the deadline back a bit, but remember the conclusion to Cities
in Flight! (At the risk of spoiling a 60+ year old book, the last book has
an appropriate title."

As an aside, it is gratifying to see that reference come up. The handle I
have been using online for 20+ years came from that text. I did come across
a "spindizzy" once upon a time and inquired about the name, but he had no
idea what I was talking about and at turned out to be a DJ thing. But I
digress! It really is a fascinating tetralogy, even if Blish's
prognostication on the future of anti-Communism is stronger than his
command of Greek etymology!


On Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 20:50 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> In a few billion years we'll likely be able to move the moon.  Remember
> 'spindizzy'?  (Cities in Flight - Blish)  bill w
>
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 6:55 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> > permanent U.S./allies Moonbase
>>
>> When the sun turns into a red giant in a few billion years and scoops up
>> the Earth - and the Moon with it - won't that likely cause survivability
>> issues for a base on the Moon?  :P
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 6:30 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I can't get over that Hubble was deployed back in 1991, and that the
>>> space shuttles are now ancient history. But with a resurgent China now
>>> committed to a very active space program, the rivalry created by it should
>>> get NASA and American private enterprise moving forward out of a desire to
>>> not be left behind... I hope to see within my lifetime a permanent
>>> U.S./allies Moonbase, and a manned mission to Mars. I suppose there will be
>>> two big manned missions to Mars, one by China, and the other by the U.S.
>>> and her allies.
>>>
>>> "Over three decades ago, NASA's STS-31 mission saw the Space Shuttle
>>> Discovery launch and bring with it the iconic Hubble Space Telescope. The
>>> Hubble is still orbiting the Earth today, and it continues to beam back
>>> images of our universe to help us understand more about the cosmos. To
>>> celebrate all of the time the telescope has spent among the stars, LEGO
>>> <https://rstyle.me/+NUIRbcZx3Y8jw9fe4ZKInw> has developed a new Space
>>> Shuttle Discovery set
>>> <https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news/2021/march/lego-nasa-discovery-space-shuttle>
>>> in collaboration with NASA."
>>>
>>> https://mymodernmet.com/lego-space-shuttle-discovery/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 05:02:18 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:02:18 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Max More on The Proactionary Principle Today on Live on
 YouTube!
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR2K3M+chbi5dY+b-GJT=eV2ebiC_fzgP-A9EKk=s4xpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CY4PR2201MB1125660483ECEEB30EB83E1B87789@CY4PR2201MB1125.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALAdGNR2K3M+chbi5dY+b-GJT=eV2ebiC_fzgP-A9EKk=s4xpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0iGM4qkJJZWXztr4-Dgkn2c50XQOWEhSiugAZiMop6ZA@mail.gmail.com>

If only we all aged as gracefully as Max! I look forward to watching the
video. And I'm still waiting on Max to write a book about his views on
transhumanism and cryonics.

John  :  )

On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:03 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Skip to 35:50 to hear Max.
>
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 10:24 AM Natasha natashavita-more.com via
> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Watch and listen at YouTube!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4q9gPlGAY
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4q9gPlGAY&fbclid=IwAR0izSFZcFN1JvpgU5IwNwmI3mmlFyAcXm3cQdrHXW42RXfymVZzAaIWp3E>
>>
>> Thank you Dan and USTP for hosting!
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 11:22:32 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:22:32 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Epic Games Raised $1 Billion to Fund Its Vision for Building
 the Metaverse
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1Ei_fNc4ExUkd=QcQKrD1hDsU_yScoZVs8OoWaLLSmbQ@mail.gmail.com>

What do you think?

"So what?s ?the metaverse,? anyway? The term was coined in 1992 when Neal
Stephenson published his hit sci-fi novel *Snow Crash
<https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/172832/snow-crash-by-neal-stephenson/>,*
in which the protagonist moves between a virtual world and the real world
fighting a computer virus. In the context of Epic Games? announcement, the
metaverse will be not just *a* virtual world, but *the* virtual world?a
digitized version of life where anyone can exist as an avatar or digital
human and interact with others. It will be active even when people aren?t
logged into it, and would link all previously-existing virtual worlds, like
an internet for virtual reality
<https://singularityhub.com/tag/virtual-reality/>.

Epic Games? CEO Tim Sweeney told *Venture Beat*
<https://venturebeat.com/2021/04/13/epic-games-raises-1-billlion-to-fund-long-term-metaverse-plans/>
that the metaverse will be a linear evolution, not a sudden massive
disruption. ?It?s going to be a meeting place for individuals and creators
of all sizes, including brands,? he said. ?If you are a car manufacturer,
your brand presence in the metaverse isn?t going to be a bunch of
advertising for your cars. It?s going to be a place where you can actually
drive the cars around and feel the experience of it?We have an opportunity
for much, much more interesting interactions.?

https://singularityhub.com/2021/04/14/epic-games-raised-1-billion-to-fund-its-vision-for-building-the-metaverse/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 11:24:42 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:24:42 +0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?A_Massive_New_Gene_Editing_Project_Is_Out_to_Cru?=
	=?utf-8?q?sh_Alzheimer=E2=80=99s?=
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy01TQ=yzauOZXXiZADgwM9wE=_Gt5MHBqmoTwHRqYx_SQ@mail.gmail.com>

"When it comes to Alzheimer?s versus science, science is on the losing
side.

Alzheimer?s is cruel in the most insidious way. The disorder creeps up in
some aging brains, gradually eating away at their ability to think and
reason, whittling down their grasp on memories and reality. As the world?s
population ages, Alzheimer?s is rearing its ugly head at a shocking rate.
And despite decades of research, we have no treatment?not to mention a cure.

Too much of a downer? The National Institutes of Health (NIH) agrees. In one
of the most ambitious projects
<https://www.ninds.nih.gov/News-Events/News-and-Press-Releases/Press-Releases/NIH-scientists-try-new-twist-using-personalized-stem-cells>
in biology, the NIH is corralling Alzheimer?s and stem cell researchers to
come together in the largest genome editing project
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0896627321001926>
ever conceived.

The idea is simple: decades of research have found certain genes that seem
to increase the chance of Alzheimer?s and other dementias. The numbers
range over hundreds. Figuring out how each connects or influences
another?if at all?takes years of research in individual labs. What if
scientists unite, tap into a shared resource, and collectively solve the
case of why Alzheimer?s occurs in the first place?

The initiative?s secret weapon is induced pluripotent stem cells, or iPSCs.
Similar to most stem cells, they have the ability to transform into
anything?a cellular Genie, if you will. iPSCs are reborn from regular adult
cells, such as skin cells. When transformed into a brain cell, however,
they carry the original genes of their donor, meaning that they harbor the
original person?s genetic legacy?for example, his or her chance of
developing Alzheimer?s in the first place. What if we introduce
Alzheimer?s-related genes into these reborn stem cells, and watch how they
behave?

By studying these iPSCs, we might be able to follow clues that lead to the
genetic causes of Alzheimer?s
<https://singularityhub.com/2019/03/05/the-gene-therapy-trial-aiming-to-fend-off-alzheimers/>
and other dementias?paving the road for gene therapies to nip them in the
bud."

https://singularityhub.com/2021/04/13/a-massive-new-gene-editing-project-is-out-to-crush-alzheimers/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 11:27:11 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:27:11 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Scientists Completed the First Human Trial of a Wireless
 High-Bandwidth Brain-Computer Interface
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3nMGFiDCO_V9Sms_AE1opQv1ax02sr3pVj2gUyZMA3KQ@mail.gmail.com>

"Brain-computer
<https://singularityhub.com/tag/brain-computer-interface/>interface
technology is advancing rapidly, but it currently relies on wires that
seriously limit its use in everyday applications. That could soon change,
though, as researchers recently completed the first human trial of a
high-bandwidth wireless neural interface.

The most accurate way to record brain signals today is by using a device
called an intracortical brain-computer interface (BCI), which involves an
array of electrodes being implanted into a patient?s motor cortex. Signals
from these electrodes then pass to a port in their skull, which connects to
cables that transmit the signal to an external computer.

The highly invasive nature of the implantation procedure means the devices
are still only used for research in a very small number of patients. But
there?s been major progress in the kinds of things users have been able to
accomplish using these devices, from typing on computers to controlling
robotic prosthetics
<https://singularityhub.com/2019/07/31/beyond-mind-controlled-robotic-limbs-to-prosthetics-that-can-actually-feel/>
and even moving paralyzed limbs.

But the fact that users need to be physically wired into these systems
seriously limits the activities they can perform, as well as researchers?
ability to test them over long periods of time and in diverse settings. Now
though, a team from Brown University has shown that a wireless BCI can
record brain signals with the same fidelity as a wired device for up to 24
hours in a patient?s home.

?We?ve demonstrated that this wireless system is functionally equivalent to
the wired systems that have been the gold standard in BCI performance for
years,? study leader John Simeral, from Brown University, said in a press
release <https://www.brown.edu/news/2021-03-31/braingate-wireless>.

?The only difference is that people no longer need to be physically
tethered to our equipment, which opens up new possibilities in terms of how
the system can be used.?

https://singularityhub.com/2021/04/12/scientists-completed-the-first-human-trial-of-a-wireless-high-bandwidth-brain-computer-interface/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 11:33:18 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:33:18 +0800
Subject: [ExI] After 48-year search,
 physicists discover ultra-rare 'triple glueball' particle
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy239CKcOZhonmdnfWj1Me=82KqvdxX2c0tvdCeEVV-+uw@mail.gmail.com>

"Scientists predicted the existence of the particle, known as the odderon,
in 1973, describing it as a rare, short-lived conjointment of three smaller
particles known as gluons. Since then, researchers have suspected that the
odderon might appear when protons slammed together at extreme speeds, but
the precise conditions that would make it spring into existence remained a
mystery. Now, after comparing data from the Large Hadron Collider (LHC),
the 17-mile-long (27 kilometers) ring-shaped atom smasher near Geneva
that's famous for discovering the Higgs boson, and the Tevatron, a
now-defunct 3.9-mile-long (6.3 km) American collider that slammed protons
and their antimatter twins (antiprotons) together in Illinois until 2011,
researchers report conclusive evidence of the odderon's existence."

https://www.livescience.com/ultra-rare-odderon-particle-detected.html
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 11:37:30 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:37:30 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Antarctica's 'Doomsday Glacier' close to tipping point,
 unmanned sub reveals
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2xrAT=v=uZK0RT-q4Q2qUUcwWSjQfN30GyJc-u0-nYPQ@mail.gmail.com>

"Our observations show warm water impinging from all sides on pinning
points critical to ice-shelf stability, a scenario that may lead to
unpinning and retreat," the study authors wrote in the paper, which was
published April 9 in the journal *Scientific Advances*
<https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/15/eabd7254>. In other words,
the entire ice-shelf could get detached and then flow into the ocean.

As one of Antarctica's fastest melting glaciers, Thwaites Glacier,
cheerfully nicknamed the "Doomsday Glacier," has lost an estimated 595
billion tons (540 billion metric tons) of ice since the 1980s, contributing
to a 4% rise in global sea levels since that time. The glacier acts like a
cork in a wine bottle, stopping the rest of the ice in the region from
flowing into the sea, so Thwaites Glacier's collapse could potentially take
the rest of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet with it, causing a 10-foot (3
meter) rise in global sea levels".
https://www.livescience.com/doomsday-glacier-close-to-tipping-point.html
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 11:47:07 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:47:07 +0800
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>

"Psilocybin, the hallucinogen found in "magic mushrooms," may work just as
well as a common antidepressant drug at treating symptoms of depression, a
small new study suggests.

The study found that people who took psilocybin twice under the supervision
of psychiatrists showed similar reductions in *depression*
<https://www.livescience.com/34718-depression-treatment-psychotherapy-anti-depressants.html>
symptoms ? based on scores on a survey ? compared with people who took a
six-week course of the antidepressant escitalopram. And those in the
psilocybin group were more likely to report remission from depression
symptoms, compared with those in the escitalopram group, according to the
study, published Wednesday (April 14) in *The New England Journal of
Medicine* <http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994>.

"One of the most important aspects of this work is that people can clearly
see the promise of properly delivered psilocybin therapy by viewing it
compared with a more familiar, established treatment in the same study,"
study lead author Robin Carhart-Harris, head of the Centre for Psychedelic
Research at Imperial College London, *said in a statement*
<https://www.eurekalert.org/emb_releases/2021-04/icl-mmc041321.php>.
"Psilocybin performed very favourably in this head-to-head [trial]."

https://www.livescience.com/psilocybin-versus-antidepressants-magic-mushrooms.html
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 12:20:20 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:20:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Epic Games Raised $1 Billion to Fund Its Vision for
 Building the Metaverse
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1Ei_fNc4ExUkd=QcQKrD1hDsU_yScoZVs8OoWaLLSmbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1Ei_fNc4ExUkd=QcQKrD1hDsU_yScoZVs8OoWaLLSmbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg4bkoVWQcWfXEGWoZ+Jv1eRyn0cf7eR46ztAsy+p2Q5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 at 12:21, John Grigg via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> What do you think?
>
> "So what?s ?the metaverse,? anyway? The term was coined in 1992 when Neal Stephenson published his hit sci-fi novel Snow Crash, in which the protagonist moves between a virtual world and the real world fighting a computer virus. In the context of Epic Games? announcement, the metaverse will be not just a virtual world, but the virtual world?a digitized version of life where anyone can exist as an avatar or digital human and interact with others. It will be active even when people aren?t logged into it, and would link all previously-existing virtual worlds, like an internet for virtual reality.
>
> https://singularityhub.com/2021/04/14/epic-games-raised-1-billion-to-fund-its-vision-for-building-the-metaverse/
> _______________________________________________


Reminds me of the film Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets
(2017) Director: Luc Besson
I enjoyed the spectacle and want to see it again. Too much to take in
with one viewing!

Quote from Roger Ebert review -
?Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets? is an utter delight and
one of the most gorgeous fantasies to hit the screen in recent
memory?the kind of film that can take moviegoers logy from the usual
array of craptaculars and render them giddy with its pure fun. The
question, of course, is whether viewers will be willing to give its
weirdo charms a chance. But if you want to come away from a film
feeling dazzled instead of simply dazed, this is an absolute must.
Besides, it is almost certainly going to become a cult favorite in a
few years, so why not get in on the ground floor while you can?
------------

BillK


From nuala.t at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 14:44:06 2021
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 00:44:06 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>

Micro dosing has been around for ages. I think LSD yields similar results
and micro dosing mdma has helped couples/marriages.
The problem is getting this sort of therapy approved as mainstream and more
providers able to administer it.
Regardless, I'm definitely not adverse to a "reset" once or twice a year.
I think it's beneficial even outside of a therapy session as I find it
helps with my own spirituality and exploration.

On Fri., Apr. 16, 2021, 21:57 John Grigg via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "Psilocybin, the hallucinogen found in "magic mushrooms," may work just as
> well as a common antidepressant drug at treating symptoms of depression, a
> small new study suggests.
>
> The study found that people who took psilocybin twice under the
> supervision of psychiatrists showed similar reductions in *depression*
> <https://www.livescience.com/34718-depression-treatment-psychotherapy-anti-depressants.html>
> symptoms ? based on scores on a survey ? compared with people who took a
> six-week course of the antidepressant escitalopram. And those in the
> psilocybin group were more likely to report remission from depression
> symptoms, compared with those in the escitalopram group, according to the
> study, published Wednesday (April 14) in *The New England Journal of
> Medicine* <http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994>.
>
> "One of the most important aspects of this work is that people can clearly
> see the promise of properly delivered psilocybin therapy by viewing it
> compared with a more familiar, established treatment in the same study,"
> study lead author Robin Carhart-Harris, head of the Centre for Psychedelic
> Research at Imperial College London, *said in a statement*
> <https://www.eurekalert.org/emb_releases/2021-04/icl-mmc041321.php>.
> "Psilocybin performed very favourably in this head-to-head [trial]."
>
>
> https://www.livescience.com/psilocybin-versus-antidepressants-magic-mushrooms.html
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 14:50:58 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 09:50:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the problem:  only Big PHarma has the money, often billions needed,
to fully test a drug and get FDA approval, and they are not going to do
that for this type of drug -can't make any money from it - can't patent it,
etc.   bill w

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 9:47 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Micro dosing has been around for ages. I think LSD yields similar results
> and micro dosing mdma has helped couples/marriages.
> The problem is getting this sort of therapy approved as mainstream and
> more providers able to administer it.
> Regardless, I'm definitely not adverse to a "reset" once or twice a year.
> I think it's beneficial even outside of a therapy session as I find it
> helps with my own spirituality and exploration.
>
> On Fri., Apr. 16, 2021, 21:57 John Grigg via extropy-chat, <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "Psilocybin, the hallucinogen found in "magic mushrooms," may work just
>> as well as a common antidepressant drug at treating symptoms of depression,
>> a small new study suggests.
>>
>> The study found that people who took psilocybin twice under the
>> supervision of psychiatrists showed similar reductions in *depression*
>> <https://www.livescience.com/34718-depression-treatment-psychotherapy-anti-depressants.html>
>> symptoms ? based on scores on a survey ? compared with people who took a
>> six-week course of the antidepressant escitalopram. And those in the
>> psilocybin group were more likely to report remission from depression
>> symptoms, compared with those in the escitalopram group, according to the
>> study, published Wednesday (April 14) in *The New England Journal of
>> Medicine* <http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994>.
>>
>> "One of the most important aspects of this work is that people can
>> clearly see the promise of properly delivered psilocybin therapy by viewing
>> it compared with a more familiar, established treatment in the same study,"
>> study lead author Robin Carhart-Harris, head of the Centre for Psychedelic
>> Research at Imperial College London, *said in a statement*
>> <https://www.eurekalert.org/emb_releases/2021-04/icl-mmc041321.php>.
>> "Psilocybin performed very favourably in this head-to-head [trial]."
>>
>>
>> https://www.livescience.com/psilocybin-versus-antidepressants-magic-mushrooms.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 15:04:05 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 23:04:05 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Epic Games Raised $1 Billion to Fund Its Vision for
 Building the Metaverse
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg4bkoVWQcWfXEGWoZ+Jv1eRyn0cf7eR46ztAsy+p2Q5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1Ei_fNc4ExUkd=QcQKrD1hDsU_yScoZVs8OoWaLLSmbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg4bkoVWQcWfXEGWoZ+Jv1eRyn0cf7eR46ztAsy+p2Q5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1wYyfWesd+tOtF-B-hWmefJxcDKqJUyuXfWgY3K2-QNg@mail.gmail.com>

 BILLK wrote:
"Reminds me of the film Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets
(2017) Director: Luc Besson
I enjoyed the spectacle and want to see it again. Too much to take in
with one viewing!"

If there was ever a film that suffered from bad casting, and a lack of
chemistry between the two leads, it was Valerian! I had such high hopes for
it, especially because of my deep love for The Fifth Element. But I found
it to be a titanic disappointment, though the opening sequence was
fantastic...

There is an anime based on Valerian which is actually pretty good.

John

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 8:25 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 at 12:21, John Grigg via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > "So what?s ?the metaverse,? anyway? The term was coined in 1992 when
> Neal Stephenson published his hit sci-fi novel Snow Crash, in which the
> protagonist moves between a virtual world and the real world fighting a
> computer virus. In the context of Epic Games? announcement, the metaverse
> will be not just a virtual world, but the virtual world?a digitized version
> of life where anyone can exist as an avatar or digital human and interact
> with others. It will be active even when people aren?t logged into it, and
> would link all previously-existing virtual worlds, like an internet for
> virtual reality.
> >
> >
> https://singularityhub.com/2021/04/14/epic-games-raised-1-billion-to-fund-its-vision-for-building-the-metaverse/
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Reminds me of the film Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets
> (2017) Director: Luc Besson
> I enjoyed the spectacle and want to see it again. Too much to take in
> with one viewing!
>
> Quote from Roger Ebert review -
> ?Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets? is an utter delight and
> one of the most gorgeous fantasies to hit the screen in recent
> memory?the kind of film that can take moviegoers logy from the usual
> array of craptaculars and render them giddy with its pure fun. The
> question, of course, is whether viewers will be willing to give its
> weirdo charms a chance. But if you want to come away from a film
> feeling dazzled instead of simply dazed, this is an absolute must.
> Besides, it is almost certainly going to become a cult favorite in a
> few years, so why not get in on the ground floor while you can?
> ------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From max at maxmore.com  Fri Apr 16 15:01:15 2021
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:01:15 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Max More on The Proactionary Principle Today on Live on
 YouTube!
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0iGM4qkJJZWXztr4-Dgkn2c50XQOWEhSiugAZiMop6ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CY4PR2201MB1125660483ECEEB30EB83E1B87789@CY4PR2201MB1125.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <CALAdGNR2K3M+chbi5dY+b-GJT=eV2ebiC_fzgP-A9EKk=s4xpg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAGSKFy0iGM4qkJJZWXztr4-Dgkn2c50XQOWEhSiugAZiMop6ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN6PR06MB524776D900717866D36586DAA04C9@SN6PR06MB5247.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Thanks, John!

I am actually writing a book on Cryonics (at least in the planning stages although I have a bunch of material). After that, I want to put together various pieces on the Proactionary Principle and add to it to make a shortish book. And THEN maybe I can tackle a new book on transhumanism.

--Max
________________________________
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of John Grigg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 10:02 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Max More on The Proactionary Principle Today on Live on YouTube!

If only we all aged as gracefully as Max! I look forward to watching the video. And I'm still waiting on Max to write a book about his views on transhumanism and cryonics.

John  :  )

On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:03 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org<mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
Skip to 35:50 to hear Max.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 10:24 AM Natasha natashavita-more.com<http://natashavita-more.com> via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org<mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
[cid:178d2518b72d28f589a1]
Watch and listen at YouTube!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4q9gPlGAY<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL4q9gPlGAY&fbclid=IwAR0izSFZcFN1JvpgU5IwNwmI3mmlFyAcXm3cQdrHXW42RXfymVZzAaIWp3E>

Thank you Dan and USTP for hosting!
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org<mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org<mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 15:14:04 2021
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 09:14:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Antarctica's 'Doomsday Glacier' close to tipping point,
 unmanned sub reveals
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2xrAT=v=uZK0RT-q4Q2qUUcwWSjQfN30GyJc-u0-nYPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2xrAT=v=uZK0RT-q4Q2qUUcwWSjQfN30GyJc-u0-nYPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQE2Wjc2Qr=dpe_YZr3PtSMgqjCt0_mntvtW_OjvQf6nA@mail.gmail.com>

"contributing to a 4% rise in global sea levels since that time"

I am deeply suspicious of this number, and of the entire cognitive edifice
underlying it, and therefore anything else that cognitive edifice has
produced.

4% of what, exactly? The ocean averages more than 100 meters deep, and we
sure as heck have not seen a 4 meter rise in global sea levels since the
80s.

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 5:49 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "Our observations show warm water impinging from all sides on pinning
> points critical to ice-shelf stability, a scenario that may lead to
> unpinning and retreat," the study authors wrote in the paper, which was
> published April 9 in the journal *Scientific Advances*
> <https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/15/eabd7254>. In other words,
> the entire ice-shelf could get detached and then flow into the ocean.
>
> As one of Antarctica's fastest melting glaciers, Thwaites Glacier,
> cheerfully nicknamed the "Doomsday Glacier," has lost an estimated 595
> billion tons (540 billion metric tons) of ice since the 1980s, contributing
> to a 4% rise in global sea levels since that time. The glacier acts like a
> cork in a wine bottle, stopping the rest of the ice in the region from
> flowing into the sea, so Thwaites Glacier's collapse could potentially take
> the rest of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet with it, causing a 10-foot (3
> meter) rise in global sea levels".
> https://www.livescience.com/doomsday-glacier-close-to-tipping-point.html
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Apr 16 15:22:07 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 08:22:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Antarctica's 'Doomsday Glacier' close to tipping point,
 unmanned sub reveals
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2xrAT=v=uZK0RT-q4Q2qUUcwWSjQfN30GyJc-u0-nYPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2xrAT=v=uZK0RT-q4Q2qUUcwWSjQfN30GyJc-u0-nYPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <895339b6-474d-85ce-0966-a68b4e53ad86@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-16 04:37, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> Thwaites Glacier, cheerfully nicknamed the "Doomsday Glacier," has lost 
> an estimated 595 billion tons (540 billion metric tons) of ice since the 
> 1980s, contributing to a 4% rise in global sea levels since that time.

Eh?  What is 4% of sea level?
Perhaps someone meant to say "contributing 4% *of* the overall rise".

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From nuala.t at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 16:00:11 2021
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 02:00:11 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>

They can't patent it but if medicinal marijuana can get passed then I don't
see why this can't, except they have to spend money and roll out an
approval system. Obviously costing a lot to hire the right people, federal
courts, FDA, etc. Etc.

On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 00:55 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Here's the problem:  only Big PHarma has the money, often billions needed,
> to fully test a drug and get FDA approval, and they are not going to do
> that for this type of drug -can't make any money from it - can't patent it,
> etc.   bill w
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 9:47 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Micro dosing has been around for ages. I think LSD yields similar results
>> and micro dosing mdma has helped couples/marriages.
>> The problem is getting this sort of therapy approved as mainstream and
>> more providers able to administer it.
>> Regardless, I'm definitely not adverse to a "reset" once or twice a year.
>> I think it's beneficial even outside of a therapy session as I find it
>> helps with my own spirituality and exploration.
>>
>> On Fri., Apr. 16, 2021, 21:57 John Grigg via extropy-chat, <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> "Psilocybin, the hallucinogen found in "magic mushrooms," may work just
>>> as well as a common antidepressant drug at treating symptoms of depression,
>>> a small new study suggests.
>>>
>>> The study found that people who took psilocybin twice under the
>>> supervision of psychiatrists showed similar reductions in *depression*
>>> <https://www.livescience.com/34718-depression-treatment-psychotherapy-anti-depressants.html>
>>> symptoms ? based on scores on a survey ? compared with people who took a
>>> six-week course of the antidepressant escitalopram. And those in the
>>> psilocybin group were more likely to report remission from depression
>>> symptoms, compared with those in the escitalopram group, according to the
>>> study, published Wednesday (April 14) in *The New England Journal of
>>> Medicine* <http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994>.
>>>
>>> "One of the most important aspects of this work is that people can
>>> clearly see the promise of properly delivered psilocybin therapy by viewing
>>> it compared with a more familiar, established treatment in the same study,"
>>> study lead author Robin Carhart-Harris, head of the Centre for Psychedelic
>>> Research at Imperial College London, *said in a statement*
>>> <https://www.eurekalert.org/emb_releases/2021-04/icl-mmc041321.php>.
>>> "Psilocybin performed very favourably in this head-to-head [trial]."
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.livescience.com/psilocybin-versus-antidepressants-magic-mushrooms.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 16:05:08 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:05:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.  LSD and
the rest are unaltered, as I understand it, and people will get high or
whatever you want to call it, and many conservatives will have big problems
with that.  bill w

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:03 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> They can't patent it but if medicinal marijuana can get passed then I
> don't see why this can't, except they have to spend money and roll out an
> approval system. Obviously costing a lot to hire the right people, federal
> courts, FDA, etc. Etc.
>
> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 00:55 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Here's the problem:  only Big PHarma has the money, often billions
>> needed, to fully test a drug and get FDA approval, and they are not going
>> to do that for this type of drug -can't make any money from it - can't
>> patent it, etc.   bill w
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 9:47 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Micro dosing has been around for ages. I think LSD yields similar
>>> results and micro dosing mdma has helped couples/marriages.
>>> The problem is getting this sort of therapy approved as mainstream and
>>> more providers able to administer it.
>>> Regardless, I'm definitely not adverse to a "reset" once or twice a year.
>>> I think it's beneficial even outside of a therapy session as I find it
>>> helps with my own spirituality and exploration.
>>>
>>> On Fri., Apr. 16, 2021, 21:57 John Grigg via extropy-chat, <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Psilocybin, the hallucinogen found in "magic mushrooms," may work just
>>>> as well as a common antidepressant drug at treating symptoms of depression,
>>>> a small new study suggests.
>>>>
>>>> The study found that people who took psilocybin twice under the
>>>> supervision of psychiatrists showed similar reductions in *depression*
>>>> <https://www.livescience.com/34718-depression-treatment-psychotherapy-anti-depressants.html>
>>>> symptoms ? based on scores on a survey ? compared with people who took a
>>>> six-week course of the antidepressant escitalopram. And those in the
>>>> psilocybin group were more likely to report remission from depression
>>>> symptoms, compared with those in the escitalopram group, according to the
>>>> study, published Wednesday (April 14) in *The New England Journal of
>>>> Medicine* <http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994>.
>>>>
>>>> "One of the most important aspects of this work is that people can
>>>> clearly see the promise of properly delivered psilocybin therapy by viewing
>>>> it compared with a more familiar, established treatment in the same study,"
>>>> study lead author Robin Carhart-Harris, head of the Centre for Psychedelic
>>>> Research at Imperial College London, *said in a statement*
>>>> <https://www.eurekalert.org/emb_releases/2021-04/icl-mmc041321.php>.
>>>> "Psilocybin performed very favourably in this head-to-head [trial]."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.livescience.com/psilocybin-versus-antidepressants-magic-mushrooms.html
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 16:33:44 2021
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:33:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>

This is false

>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 16:36:27 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:36:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] reference
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYHb7rfnTL1E2+SCnKsNx9B7d5z-YZ6naxwhzZoMx7nxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Razib Khan, the Republican Fluency with Science, Discover magazine, March
28, 2011

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 16 17:56:41 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:56:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>

This is false  It depends:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855#:~:text=Medical%20marijuana%20%E2%80%94%20also%20called%20medical,)%20and%20CBD%20(cannabidiol
).

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:37 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>
>
> This is false
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Apr 16 19:32:22 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:32:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Epic Games Raised $1 Billion to Fund Its Vision for
 Building the Metaverse
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg4bkoVWQcWfXEGWoZ+Jv1eRyn0cf7eR46ztAsy+p2Q5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1Ei_fNc4ExUkd=QcQKrD1hDsU_yScoZVs8OoWaLLSmbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg4bkoVWQcWfXEGWoZ+Jv1eRyn0cf7eR46ztAsy+p2Q5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3093797c-0fbb-27db-d585-aaffde6bf45b@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-16 05:20, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
> Reminds me of the film Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets
> (2017) Director: Luc Besson
> I enjoyed the spectacle and want to see it again. Too much to take in
> with one viewing!
> 
> Quote from Roger Ebert review -

To pick a nit: Ebert died in 2013;
I guess you mean a review on rogerebert.com?

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From nuala.t at gmail.com  Sat Apr 17 00:27:02 2021
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:27:02 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>

Here in Aus medical marijuana still has THC and gets you fucked up! The
strongest weed you could possibly get.
On the other hand CBD oil which is also being shown to help with anxiety
and depression does not contain THC.

On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 04:00 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>
>
> This is false  It depends:
>
>
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855#:~:text=Medical%20marijuana%20%E2%80%94%20also%20called%20medical,)%20and%20CBD%20(cannabidiol
> ).
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:37 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>
>>
>> This is false
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 17 00:37:38 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 19:37:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>

Nuala, what do you think of the efficacy of the drugs as far as you are
concerned?   bill w

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 7:30 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Here in Aus medical marijuana still has THC and gets you fucked up! The
> strongest weed you could possibly get.
> On the other hand CBD oil which is also being shown to help with anxiety
> and depression does not contain THC.
>
> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 04:00 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>
>>
>> This is false  It depends:
>>
>>
>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855#:~:text=Medical%20marijuana%20%E2%80%94%20also%20called%20medical,)%20and%20CBD%20(cannabidiol
>> ).
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:37 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is false
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From nuala.t at gmail.com  Sat Apr 17 01:12:49 2021
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 11:12:49 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>

Will, do you mean pharmaceuticals in terms of the treatment of mental
illness or something else?

On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 10:40 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Nuala, what do you think of the efficacy of the drugs as far as you are
> concerned?   bill w
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 7:30 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Here in Aus medical marijuana still has THC and gets you fucked up! The
>> strongest weed you could possibly get.
>> On the other hand CBD oil which is also being shown to help with anxiety
>> and depression does not contain THC.
>>
>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 04:00 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is false  It depends:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855#:~:text=Medical%20marijuana%20%E2%80%94%20also%20called%20medical,)%20and%20CBD%20(cannabidiol
>>> ).
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:37 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is false
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 17 02:34:07 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 22:34:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXb0-pCP_TNR8+ED3AGVBDet5hgpDa46+d_2DgfdUROmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypX1J3z3tUueL-irr_1iHS-P6sTiyoiQYhDFSgjrhbXHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+PiLcpY70ys1QgNQfd23JkW4DF00cc1eGUc1UGbaU8Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXb0-pCP_TNR8+ED3AGVBDet5hgpDa46+d_2DgfdUROmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhRSdxskieO3rPAT20QZ5nxqMQYzN0Lhiwn0j0sgbGRVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 6:09 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> You may not think that such drastic measures are warranted, but they work.
>

### They don't work in an established epidemic with large numbers of cases.
Everywhere they tried the same methods among susceptible large populations
with large numbers of existing cases, they failed.

Rafal
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Apr 17 04:13:38 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:13:38 +1000
Subject: [ExI] cumulative cost of shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhRSdxskieO3rPAT20QZ5nxqMQYzN0Lhiwn0j0sgbGRVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801d72be4$cc10cd30$64326790$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUJD5GzhmtC4amSBu5Tz08aBCT4WV9K0sgDMmdWPU9fZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d72bfb$68e80220$3ab80660$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypX1J3z3tUueL-irr_1iHS-P6sTiyoiQYhDFSgjrhbXHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+PiLcpY70ys1QgNQfd23JkW4DF00cc1eGUc1UGbaU8Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXb0-pCP_TNR8+ED3AGVBDet5hgpDa46+d_2DgfdUROmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhRSdxskieO3rPAT20QZ5nxqMQYzN0Lhiwn0j0sgbGRVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVHVuaGCgL9sge0Syg6bUgLi+_h1S9eYbMxCTFpT=S-jg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 at 12:36, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 6:09 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> You may not think that such drastic measures are warranted, but they work.
>>
>
> ### They don't work in an established epidemic with large numbers of
> cases. Everywhere they tried the same methods among susceptible large
> populations with large numbers of existing cases, they failed.
>

It worked in Australia. At one point in mid 2020 in Melbourne there were
700 cases a day, now after an almost 4 month lockdown there are none, and
apart from restrictions on international travel (anyone entering Australia
has to quarantine for 2 weeks) life and the economy are back to normal. But
being an island probably does make this easier.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 17 23:13:15 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 18:13:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 8:16 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Will, do you mean pharmaceuticals in terms of the treatment of mental
> illness or something else?
>

It's Bill W - anything at all that you know - mental illness -
self-treatment for mental problems, etc.  Just the illegal drugs.   bill w

>
> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 10:40 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Nuala, what do you think of the efficacy of the drugs as far as you are
>> concerned?   bill w
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 7:30 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Here in Aus medical marijuana still has THC and gets you fucked up! The
>>> strongest weed you could possibly get.
>>> On the other hand CBD oil which is also being shown to help with anxiety
>>> and depression does not contain THC.
>>>
>>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 04:00 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is false  It depends:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855#:~:text=Medical%20marijuana%20%E2%80%94%20also%20called%20medical,)%20and%20CBD%20(cannabidiol
>>>> ).
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:37 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is false
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From nuala.t at gmail.com  Sun Apr 18 02:36:49 2021
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:36:49 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEc3cqttQwKxnRhWBt=xAcKgP1s29FwhMQnq=vT2j6BpvM+p8Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'm so sorry Bill W!
That is a huge question and hard to answer.
No matter what, every single person reacts differently and experiences
differently to both pharmaceuticals and illegal drugs. So the latest in DNA
testing to narrow down which antidepressants are more likely to help rather
than hinder I think is a very much needed first step.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/gene-testing-to-guide-antidepressant-treatment-has-its-time-arrived-2019100917964
The next stage is going to be able to confirm whether it's a person's state
of mind/way of thinking or an actual chemical imbalance and therefore
whether a form of therapy (CBT, DBT, etc.) Would be better suited to them
over antidepressants, stabilisers, or antipsychotics. The struggle to
differentiate on the more suitable path is real, and quite often here
(Australia) doctors opt for both (therapy and drugs) simultaneously. This
is both good and bad.
I'm going to go back to gene testing for antidepressants for a moment and
I'm going to use 'Subject J' as an example. He had been on and off
antidepressants for the better part of 20 years trying to find one that
actually worked with acceptable side effects. I can't say what the last one
he took was but I can say that it was 'the one'. His neuro chemistry is
permanently changed and he no longer needs to take medication. This is what
I hope the dna tests will help to accomplish in a more acceptable time
frame.
I could talk a lot more on the use of therapy treating borderline and
bipolar disorders which stem from trauma but I want to touch on illicit
substances.
Again, everyone reacts differently so one person might respond to MDMA as I
would expect (loving, friendly, talkative, open communication) another
person will respond entirely differently. An example that I saw was
nauseous, tired, completely closed off. That person ended up just going to
sleep. Opposite responses will happen with everything.
Illicit drugs and mental illness is also a mega topic for me and typing
this email on a phone screen is getting frustrating.
Illicit substances in the use for dealing with mental illness is not as
funded as I would like it to be, and obviously this email started with
evidence that it should have more funding. MDMA in couples or marriage
sessions can be great as it is the love drug. People are able to openly
communicate coming from a place of love instead of a place of spite or
maliciousness. Hallucinogenics I'm assuming everyone knows how they work
whether or not you've actually tried any. I believe for a more permanent
response in the treatment of mental illness the trip should be guided. I'm
going to refer to my own experiences for this one. My first time ever
specifically. I was 18 and dating a pretty amazing person. I also have a
history of mental illness myself. Keeping this simple and vague; Somewhere
in the journey, in the span of about 30min I cycled through every possible
emotion processing childhood abuse. The person I was with just allowed and
accepted everything and listened.
Now for sure there is still some processing to do but not like that. That
was about 75% of the process complete in one go. If I had been alone in
that, it would not have gone like that. Long term, the benefits still blow
my mind.
It's that benefit that I hope will eventually be more accepted. Micro
dosing is certainly a lot safer and more easily controlled.
A major problem I see with mental illness and illicit drugs is the habitual
use as a way of masking pain and trauma. The excessive use stops the
healing process and causes more long term issues. I've found the people in
this situation are a lot less likely to seek professional help, are
reluctant to let someone help them, and will just continue until something
changes, but denial runs strong in that group.
And then we have the group of people (such as myself) who have pre-existing
mental illness, who micro dosing would be extremely beneficial for, but
where the risk of adverse effects is strong.
E.g.. Paranoid after effects.

I'm sorry. I would love to continue but I'm truly sick of typing on a
phone. I would love your opinion and experiences on such topics and we can
continue the conversation later.

On Sun., Apr. 18, 2021, 09:17 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 8:16 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Will, do you mean pharmaceuticals in terms of the treatment of mental
>> illness or something else?
>>
>
> It's Bill W - anything at all that you know - mental illness -
> self-treatment for mental problems, etc.  Just the illegal drugs.   bill w
>
>>
>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 10:40 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Nuala, what do you think of the efficacy of the drugs as far as you are
>>> concerned?   bill w
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 7:30 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here in Aus medical marijuana still has THC and gets you fucked up! The
>>>> strongest weed you could possibly get.
>>>> On the other hand CBD oil which is also being shown to help with
>>>> anxiety and depression does not contain THC.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 04:00 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is false  It depends:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855#:~:text=Medical%20marijuana%20%E2%80%94%20also%20called%20medical,)%20and%20CBD%20(cannabidiol
>>>>> ).
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:37 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is false
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Apr 18 03:31:04 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 23:31:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Grand Arc of Humanity
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFj1zCvFMMb-ZkECnicbniMSULr6VHwGkVzaOhAWZ3qZ4A@mail.gmail.com>

Did you ever wonder what was the specific, unique development in the
history of the world that set humans on our path, separate from animals and
out to reach the stars?

I don't mean all the prerequisites for humans to exist. There is a
combination of string landscape properties that defines the specific
physics that allowed inflation, hydrogen and gravity, which allowed for the
formation of stars that are necessary for humans, but stars are also needed
for chloroplasts and rhodobacteria, so this is not specific enough. Nuclei
and mitochondria were needed to create larger creatures, such as humans but
nuclei and mitochondria also created snails and trees, so again not
specific enough. Trees populated by snails and the like created an unusual
ecological niche, that of a tree-dwelling fast moving omnivorous creature
with stereoscopic vision and arms adapted to the grasping of sticks, and we
needed our vision and arms to become what we are but then lemurs, gibbons
and hundreds of other primate species have been around for 55 million
years, so these adaptations are not sufficient for an intelligent species
to appear, or else ruins of cities older than the Himalayas would be
littering the planet. The ability to use tools such as sticks and to have
rudimentary language also isn't sufficiently specific, since apes have been
doing these things for millions of years and were getting nowhere fast.

But there came a day when an Australopithecine made a stick that was longer
and sharper than what the chimpanzee uses to dig for tubers and to pick
termite mounds. That stick could hurt if used by a creature with
stereoscopic vision and strong, grasping hands. That stick could be thrust
at a predator, or prey. An Australopithecine on the ground + leopard means
a snack for the leopard but an Australopithecine + sharp stick + leopard
means a very sore leopard, possibly even a big dinner for the ape. The
sharp stick completely changed the equation. It propelled the
Australopithecine from the rank of lowly scavenger and often easy prey to
the level of a moderately bad-ass all-around brawler, not hardcore enough
to take on lions but just too tough to kill under most circumstances. It
changed the ape from an occasional hunter to a frequent hunter, giving
access to the meat and the marrow and the energy to feed a bigger brain
without forcing an increase in size. And most importantly, this is the
first time in the history of the Earth that the survival and thriving of a
social, large, terrestrial animal with stereoscopic vision and manipulatory
appendages became dependent on the creation of a tool - a tool not merely
aiding survival, like a stone wielded by a monkey to crush nuts, but
actually indispensable for survival due to the incredible boost in
abilities it afforded the user. The sharp stick was just such an amazing
quantum leap that once the ape learned to use it, the ape couldn't live
without it and it became a hominid.

So here is my opinion about when the Grand Arc of Humanity started - with a
big, sharp stick. Everything before was generic, prerequisites like size,
stereoscopic vision, manipulatory arms, sociality, all necessary but
insufficient to create something as unique as us. The sharp stick was the
keystone to the portal to the technological civilization that opened before
the Australopithecine - all of what followed flowed then logically from
that point. The need to make and use a tool prevented us from becoming
generic predators that survive by the tooth and claw. The sharp stick is an
external adaptation - not of the body but dependent on the learning mind
for its usefulness. The ability to use the sharp stick channeled our
evolution towards the use of more and more tools, with ever less need for
genetic adaptation and more cultural transmission. Apes can use fire and
love cooked foods but they wouldn't benefit from fire much even if they
could maintain it. Hominids with sharp sticks can feed the fire with meat
and can fend off predators while on the ground, which is why we lost the
adaptations to swing from tree branches and improved our ground mobility.
The sharp stick can also be thrown - it became the spear, and that moved
the hominid to the rank of serious badass, the kind you want to stay away
from. Access to fire gave us cooked food which reduced the amount of time
needed to chew from 6 hours a day to 30 minutes and it freed 25% of our
metabolic energy from digestion to thinking, so our brains grew because we
had the time and the energy to actually use them. Bigger brains meant more
ability to invent cultural adaptations, which meant stronger pressure for
bigger brains and also dramatically faster adaptability to changed
circumstances, which meant spreading throughout the world of different
climates and different food sources. Finally, the sharp stick meant we
could kill each other from ambush, safely, leading to the
self-domestication of us, H. sapiens, and extinction of the other Homo's.

A bunch of positive feedback loops started with this first technology and
in geologically no time at all propelled us to the moon and beyond.

The Grand Arc of Humanity is now close to its end. H.sapiens will soon
disappear, hopefully by uploading, maybe in other ways. But it all started
with a sharp stick held by a hungry ape.

Rafal
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 18 03:52:17 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:52:17 +0800
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cqttQwKxnRhWBt=xAcKgP1s29FwhMQnq=vT2j6BpvM+p8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqttQwKxnRhWBt=xAcKgP1s29FwhMQnq=vT2j6BpvM+p8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3zf_gY3sRPGYaCJOfaDvrHHF-7qdGEpYuu1wxmrgZWRA@mail.gmail.com>

 Nuala Thomson, I look forward to hearing further what you have to say... I
find these subjects deeply fascinating....

John

On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 10:40 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I'm so sorry Bill W!
> That is a huge question and hard to answer.
> No matter what, every single person reacts differently and experiences
> differently to both pharmaceuticals and illegal drugs. So the latest in DNA
> testing to narrow down which antidepressants are more likely to help rather
> than hinder I think is a very much needed first step.
>
> https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/gene-testing-to-guide-antidepressant-treatment-has-its-time-arrived-2019100917964
> The next stage is going to be able to confirm whether it's a person's
> state of mind/way of thinking or an actual chemical imbalance and therefore
> whether a form of therapy (CBT, DBT, etc.) Would be better suited to them
> over antidepressants, stabilisers, or antipsychotics. The struggle to
> differentiate on the more suitable path is real, and quite often here
> (Australia) doctors opt for both (therapy and drugs) simultaneously. This
> is both good and bad.
> I'm going to go back to gene testing for antidepressants for a moment and
> I'm going to use 'Subject J' as an example. He had been on and off
> antidepressants for the better part of 20 years trying to find one that
> actually worked with acceptable side effects. I can't say what the last one
> he took was but I can say that it was 'the one'. His neuro chemistry is
> permanently changed and he no longer needs to take medication. This is what
> I hope the dna tests will help to accomplish in a more acceptable time
> frame.
> I could talk a lot more on the use of therapy treating borderline and
> bipolar disorders which stem from trauma but I want to touch on illicit
> substances.
> Again, everyone reacts differently so one person might respond to MDMA as
> I would expect (loving, friendly, talkative, open communication) another
> person will respond entirely differently. An example that I saw was
> nauseous, tired, completely closed off. That person ended up just going to
> sleep. Opposite responses will happen with everything.
> Illicit drugs and mental illness is also a mega topic for me and typing
> this email on a phone screen is getting frustrating.
> Illicit substances in the use for dealing with mental illness is not as
> funded as I would like it to be, and obviously this email started with
> evidence that it should have more funding. MDMA in couples or marriage
> sessions can be great as it is the love drug. People are able to openly
> communicate coming from a place of love instead of a place of spite or
> maliciousness. Hallucinogenics I'm assuming everyone knows how they work
> whether or not you've actually tried any. I believe for a more permanent
> response in the treatment of mental illness the trip should be guided. I'm
> going to refer to my own experiences for this one. My first time ever
> specifically. I was 18 and dating a pretty amazing person. I also have a
> history of mental illness myself. Keeping this simple and vague; Somewhere
> in the journey, in the span of about 30min I cycled through every possible
> emotion processing childhood abuse. The person I was with just allowed and
> accepted everything and listened.
> Now for sure there is still some processing to do but not like that. That
> was about 75% of the process complete in one go. If I had been alone in
> that, it would not have gone like that. Long term, the benefits still blow
> my mind.
> It's that benefit that I hope will eventually be more accepted. Micro
> dosing is certainly a lot safer and more easily controlled.
> A major problem I see with mental illness and illicit drugs is the
> habitual use as a way of masking pain and trauma. The excessive use stops
> the healing process and causes more long term issues. I've found the people
> in this situation are a lot less likely to seek professional help, are
> reluctant to let someone help them, and will just continue until something
> changes, but denial runs strong in that group.
> And then we have the group of people (such as myself) who have
> pre-existing mental illness, who micro dosing would be extremely beneficial
> for, but where the risk of adverse effects is strong.
> E.g.. Paranoid after effects.
>
> I'm sorry. I would love to continue but I'm truly sick of typing on a
> phone. I would love your opinion and experiences on such topics and we can
> continue the conversation later.
>
> On Sun., Apr. 18, 2021, 09:17 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 8:16 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Will, do you mean pharmaceuticals in terms of the treatment of mental
>>> illness or something else?
>>>
>>
>> It's Bill W - anything at all that you know - mental illness -
>> self-treatment for mental problems, etc.  Just the illegal drugs.   bill w
>>
>>>
>>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 10:40 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nuala, what do you think of the efficacy of the drugs as far as you are
>>>> concerned?   bill w
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 7:30 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Here in Aus medical marijuana still has THC and gets you fucked up!
>>>>> The strongest weed you could possibly get.
>>>>> On the other hand CBD oil which is also being shown to help with
>>>>> anxiety and depression does not contain THC.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 04:00 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is false  It depends:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855#:~:text=Medical%20marijuana%20%E2%80%94%20also%20called%20medical,)%20and%20CBD%20(cannabidiol
>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:37 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is false
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 18 16:05:25 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 00:05:25 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Leaked: Pentagon's UFO Investigation Spotlighted In New
 Photos And Video | TODAY
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy05ndtaJ5qqX-j8Xdu4FOpr-F_9OQ9SeRetk04FdAfttw@mail.gmail.com>

Things are getting interesting...

"New information is emerging about a series of mysterious sightings over
U.S. Navy warships in California. Video shows a strange object hovering
over one of those ships, and now the Pentagon confirms it was taken by the
Navy. NBC?s Gadi Schwartz reports for TODAY."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKsLK_Na7iw
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sun Apr 18 18:05:26 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:05:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] new covid case rates
In-Reply-To: <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001001d72b48$f0f70840$d2e518c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <F9C139FD-9EF0-4E42-B95D-E86C7FC8E922@alumni.virginia.edu>

Update:
From a local article today: https://www.newsbreak.com/n/0ZJno9qE

?While COVID-19 has spread to nearly every part of the country, cities continue to be the sites of major outbreaks. Experts agree that the virus is more likely to spread in group settings where large numbers of people routinely have close contact with one another, such as colleges, nursing homes, bars, and restaurants. Metropolitan areas with a high degree of connectivity between different neighborhoods and a large population may be particularly at-risk. 
In the 50 largest metro areas, the incidence of coronavirus grew at an average rate of 23.6 new cases a day per 100,000 residents in the past week -- 13.9% greater than the case growth in all counties outside of metro areas.           ... To determine the county in every metropolitan area where COVID-19 is growing the slowest, 24/7 Wall St. compiled and reviewed data from state and local health departments. We ranked counties according to the average number of new daily COVID-19 cases per 100,000 residents in the seven days ending Apr. 15. To estimate the incidence of COVID-19 at the metropolitan level, we aggregated data from the county level using boundary definitions from the U.S. Census Bureau. Population data used to adjust case and death totals came from the U.S. Census Bureau?s 2019 American Community Survey and are five-year estimates. Unemployment data is from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and is not seasonally adjusted.?

> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:39 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: William Flynn Wallac
> Subject: Re: [ExI] new covid case rates
>  
> >?I seem to recall an aerial photo you sent me with the prices of the houses on it.  I assumed that it was an area you lived in - correct?  If so you are definitely urban.  Rural houses have much more distance between houses.  This assumes that I know something about urban sociology (but I don't)  bill w
>  
> Ja.  If here is urban, then most of the US population is urban.  What we need is to somehow divide the population down the middle, if that can be done.  But even that is very ambiguous, because people travel.  It isn?t the housing density that matters as much as the population density in the houses.  Many urbanites seldom go outdoors, but many rural dwellers travel every day to the city.
>  
> spike
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From odellhuff2 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 18 18:13:08 2021
From: odellhuff2 at gmail.com (Odell)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:13:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Leaked: Pentagon's UFO Investigation Spotlighted In New
 Photos And Video | TODAY
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy05ndtaJ5qqX-j8Xdu4FOpr-F_9OQ9SeRetk04FdAfttw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy05ndtaJ5qqX-j8Xdu4FOpr-F_9OQ9SeRetk04FdAfttw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACsUujUvwW2B_d4G2-S4ewoPdzRRtMWZjBqg1KZogtRpNtXZSg@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all, where is the informed speculation about this? Besides some offhand
comments from former officials hinting there's more than the public knows,
all I could really find online was a Scientific American article saying the
question merits scientific investigation. Indeed.

I've been wondering ever since I heard Bill Cinton on that PBS show "Wait
Wait Don't Tell Me" in July 2012. Peter Sagal asked who killed JFK and what
happened at Roswell. Clinton said simply Oswell assassinated the president
acting on his own, but then gave this reply to the other question:

CLINTON: I'm not sure there's not life somewhere in outer space. What do I
know? And I know that the Hubble telescope identified a planet in the
constellation Libra, several light years outside our own solar system that
seems to be far enough away from its sun that it might be enough like earth
to support life. But I read everything I could get my hands on, on Roswell,
and nothing I read persuaded me that it was an alien sighting or landing.

https://www.npr.org/2012/07/07/156251707/bill-clinton-takes-a-quiz-about-my-little-pony

Behind the lawyer speak, he names a specific star! Or the
constellation--perhaps he's referring to this system described in the
Wikipedia entry on Libra:

Planetary systems

Libra is home to the Gliese 581 planetary system
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581_planetary_system>, which consists
of the star Gliese 581 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581>, three
confirmed planets, and two unconfirmed planets. Both Gliese 581d
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581d>, and Gliese 581g
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581g> are debatably the most
promising candidates for life, although Gliese 581g's existences has been
disputed and has not been entirely confirmed or agreed on in the scientific
community. Gliese 581c <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581c> is
considered to be the first Earth-like extrasolar planet
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrasolar_planet> to be found within its
parent star's habitable zone <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitable_zone>
. Gliese 581e <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581e> is possibly the
smallest mass exoplanet <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exoplanet> orbiting
a normal star found to date[12]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libra_(constellation)#cite_note-mayor-14> All
of these exoplanets are of significance for establishing the likelihood of
life <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life> outside of the Solar
System <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_System>.

The family of candidate habitable planets was extended in late September
2010 to include exoplanets around red dwarf
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_dwarf> stars because of Gliese 581g,
which is a tidally locked <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidally_locked> planet
in the middle of the habitable zone
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitable_zone>. Weather studies show that
tidally locked planets may still have the ability to support life.

So what are the scientists saying?

Best,
Odell




On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 9:02 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Things are getting interesting...
>
> "New information is emerging about a series of mysterious sightings over
> U.S. Navy warships in California. Video shows a strange object hovering
> over one of those ships, and now the Pentagon confirms it was taken by the
> Navy. NBC?s Gadi Schwartz reports for TODAY."
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKsLK_Na7iw
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 13:33:22 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 21:33:22 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Leaked: Pentagon's UFO Investigation Spotlighted In New
 Photos And Video | TODAY
In-Reply-To: <CACsUujUvwW2B_d4G2-S4ewoPdzRRtMWZjBqg1KZogtRpNtXZSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy05ndtaJ5qqX-j8Xdu4FOpr-F_9OQ9SeRetk04FdAfttw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACsUujUvwW2B_d4G2-S4ewoPdzRRtMWZjBqg1KZogtRpNtXZSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0pdTBBb=F81oaq=f2JvBJtKw8gz-OJ1pTJMnxe5d+8FA@mail.gmail.com>

UFOs: Retired Navy Commander Describes His Sighting In 2004 | The Overview
| NBC News

Two very eye-opening interviews...

"Gadi Schwartz?s full interview with Retired Navy Commander David Fravor on
the unidentified object he saw flying in the sky during a training mission
in 2004."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA-h3dIeD_A


On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 2:17 AM Odell via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hey all, where is the informed speculation about this? Besides some
> offhand comments from former officials hinting there's more than the public
> knows, all I could really find online was a Scientific American article
> saying the question merits scientific investigation. Indeed.
>
> I've been wondering ever since I heard Bill Cinton on that PBS show "Wait
> Wait Don't Tell Me" in July 2012. Peter Sagal asked who killed JFK and what
> happened at Roswell. Clinton said simply Oswell assassinated the president
> acting on his own, but then gave this reply to the other question:
>
> CLINTON: I'm not sure there's not life somewhere in outer space. What do I
> know? And I know that the Hubble telescope identified a planet in the
> constellation Libra, several light years outside our own solar system that
> seems to be far enough away from its sun that it might be enough like earth
> to support life. But I read everything I could get my hands on, on Roswell,
> and nothing I read persuaded me that it was an alien sighting or landing.
>
>
> https://www.npr.org/2012/07/07/156251707/bill-clinton-takes-a-quiz-about-my-little-pony
>
> Behind the lawyer speak, he names a specific star! Or the
> constellation--perhaps he's referring to this system described in the
> Wikipedia entry on Libra:
>
> Planetary systems
>
> Libra is home to the Gliese 581 planetary system
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581_planetary_system>, which
> consists of the star Gliese 581 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581>,
> three confirmed planets, and two unconfirmed planets. Both Gliese 581d
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581d>, and Gliese 581g
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581g> are debatably the most
> promising candidates for life, although Gliese 581g's existences has been
> disputed and has not been entirely confirmed or agreed on in the scientific
> community. Gliese 581c <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581c> is
> considered to be the first Earth-like extrasolar planet
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrasolar_planet> to be found within its
> parent star's habitable zone
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitable_zone>. Gliese 581e
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581e> is possibly the smallest mass
> exoplanet <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exoplanet> orbiting a normal
> star found to date[12]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libra_(constellation)#cite_note-mayor-14> All
> of these exoplanets are of significance for establishing the likelihood of
> life <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life> outside of the Solar
> System <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_System>.
>
> The family of candidate habitable planets was extended in late September
> 2010 to include exoplanets around red dwarf
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_dwarf> stars because of Gliese 581g,
> which is a tidally locked <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidally_locked> planet
> in the middle of the habitable zone
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitable_zone>. Weather studies show that
> tidally locked planets may still have the ability to support life.
>
> So what are the scientists saying?
>
> Best,
> Odell
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 9:02 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Things are getting interesting...
>>
>> "New information is emerging about a series of mysterious sightings over
>> U.S. Navy warships in California. Video shows a strange object hovering
>> over one of those ships, and now the Pentagon confirms it was taken by the
>> Navy. NBC?s Gadi Schwartz reports for TODAY."
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKsLK_Na7iw
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 13:56:41 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:56:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Leaked: Pentagon's UFO Investigation Spotlighted In New
 Photos And Video | TODAY
In-Reply-To: <CACsUujUvwW2B_d4G2-S4ewoPdzRRtMWZjBqg1KZogtRpNtXZSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy05ndtaJ5qqX-j8Xdu4FOpr-F_9OQ9SeRetk04FdAfttw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACsUujUvwW2B_d4G2-S4ewoPdzRRtMWZjBqg1KZogtRpNtXZSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg61iUD1OCMty-bmZE_vtyRvTfx=tQa1SaTa2VMFtE9MA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 at 19:17, Odell via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Hey all, where is the informed speculation about this? Besides some offhand comments from former officials hinting there's more than the public knows, all I could really find online was a Scientific American article saying the question merits scientific investigation. Indeed.
>
> I've been wondering ever since I heard Bill Cinton on that PBS show "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" in July 2012. Peter Sagal asked who killed JFK and what happened at Roswell. Clinton said simply Oswell assassinated the president acting on his own, but then gave this reply to the other question:
>
<snip>
>
> So what are the scientists saying?
>
> Best,  Odell
> _______________________________________________


Well, you have to wonder..... If a space-faring species from another
star system have the time and resources to play hide-and-seek around
Earth, why are they watching a less developed species fighting each
other and polluting their planet environment?
Perhaps they are making a documentary to teach developing species what
happens if they do it wrong.

As the quote says -
?It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a
warning to others.?


BillK


From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Apr 19 14:30:48 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 10:30:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Leaked: Pentagon's UFO Investigation Spotlighted In New
 Photos And Video | TODAY
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg61iUD1OCMty-bmZE_vtyRvTfx=tQa1SaTa2VMFtE9MA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg61iUD1OCMty-bmZE_vtyRvTfx=tQa1SaTa2VMFtE9MA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CEB34549-DA41-4C83-BEA7-863BAF02F554@alumni.virginia.edu>

I have a subscription to Ufotv.com, and from what I have watched, the suggestions are the visitors are trying to prevent us from destroying ourselves (monitoring for nukes and such, disabling warheads and other tech when needed) and/or trying initiating contact with the populace vs the military industrial complex which seems set on being aggressive towards them. 

There is a large group of citizens responding and making contact using what one Dr. Greer has labelled the CE-5 protocols. I?m on Facebook groups with the CETI (Communication with Extraterrestrial Intelligence) folks who use this and see their vids which seem credible. It?s pretty remarkable. 

See https://siriusdisclosure.com/

And
https://www.amazon.com/Close-Encounters-Fifth-Kind-Contact/dp/B086D4D3V6/ref=nodl_
(available on Prime). 

> On Apr 19, 2021, at 9:57 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 at 19:17, Odell via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hey all, where is the informed speculation about this? Besides some offhand comments from former officials hinting there's more than the public knows, all I could really find online was a Scientific American article saying the question merits scientific investigation. Indeed.
>> 
>> I've been wondering ever since I heard Bill Cinton on that PBS show "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" in July 2012. Peter Sagal asked who killed JFK and what happened at Roswell. Clinton said simply Oswell assassinated the president acting on his own, but then gave this reply to the other question:
> <snip>
>> 
>> So what are the scientists saying?
>> 
>> Best,  Odell
>> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> Well, you have to wonder..... If a space-faring species from another
> star system have the time and resources to play hide-and-seek around
> Earth, why are they watching a less developed species fighting each
> other and polluting their planet environment?
> Perhaps they are making a documentary to teach developing species what
> happens if they do it wrong.
> 
> As the quote says -
> ?It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a
> warning to others.?
> 
> 
> BillK
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 23:46:32 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 18:46:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pistols
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>

OK, ladies and gentlemen, recall the T shirt that some women wore?
"I am out of estrogen and I have a gun."

That describes my wife except that she doesn't have a gun.  So let's get
her one.

Item 1 - she does not have small hands   2 - weight is a consideration as
is trigger pull (compact model preferred)  3 - price is NOT a
consideration  4 - seven or eight rounds is enough  5 - she is clumsy and
will want a manual safety (yeah, I know).

So - please let me have your recommendations - new guns only - accuracy not
an issue (target shooting will be done but am not aiming for accuracy, just
stopping power and lots of noise)
    bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr 20 00:16:10 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 17:16:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat

Subject: [ExI] pistols

 

OK, ladies and gentlemen, recall the T shirt that some women wore?  

"I am out of estrogen and I have a gun."

 

That describes my wife except that she doesn't have a gun.  So let's get her one.  

?

 

So - please let me have your recommendations - new guns only - accuracy not an issue (target shooting will be done but am not aiming for accuracy, just stopping power and lots of noise)

    bill w

 

 

 

Hi BillW, 

 

Being as this is not the right forum for that discussion, I will post my recommendations privately.  The obvious question is OK, one for your bride, but what about you?  As the member of the family who is the former US militia man, one might think you would want to keep and bear as well.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr 20 03:15:37 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 20:15:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] india, owwwww dang
Message-ID: <000901d73593$6ff327b0$4fd97710$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

I was away from this for a week of camping so it came as a shock this afternoon when I started looking at numbers.

 

The covid world new case rate hit an all-time record high, and India accounts for over a third of the new cases in the world: 

 

 



 

We have a lot of Indian friends with their families back in the old country.  They are most disturbed by all this.

 

spike

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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 13:15:45 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:15:45 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Honeywell Just Released Details About How Its Quantum
 Computer Works
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1nNJrSoMQ0U=htyPm65d6dV3zsU3KyccpYPPzZmqa8Yg@mail.gmail.com>

How important is quantum computing in regards to developing true AGI?

"Engineering giant Honeywell burst into the quantum computing
<https://singularityhub.com/tag/computing/> race out of left field last
year. Now the company has provided the first concrete details of how its
device works in a peer-reviewed journal.

Unlike its main rivals Google and IBM, who rely on superconducting qubits,
Honeywell is using trapped ions to power its device. The technology has a
long pedigree?most of the earliest quantum computing experiments relied on
this approach?but difficulties in scaling devices beyond a few qubits saw
it eclipsed by alternatives.

The technique relies on encoding information in the quantum states of
charged particles called ions, which are suspended in a vacuum using
electromagnetic fields. These qubits have a number of advantages over their
superconducting cousins: they maintain their quantum states far longer,
they?re less error-prone, and they can easily interact with many qubits
rather than only their closest neighbors.

But there are only so many ions one can confine to a single trap, which
puts an upper limit on how big conventional devices could be. And while
they can interact with many qubits, they do so considerably slower than
superconducting devices.

Last March, Honeywell burst onto the quantum computing scene by claiming to
have solved these problems
<https://www.honeywell.com/us/en/press/2020/03/honeywell-achieves-breakthrough-that-will-enable-the-worlds-most-powerful-quantum-computer>
and created the most powerful quantum computer to date. Now they?ve finally
lifted the lid on exactly how they did that in a paper published in *Nature*
<https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03318-4>*.*

The company?s machine builds on a design first proposed in 2002
<https://physicsworld.com/a/quantum-computer-based-on-shuttling-ions-is-built-by-honeywell/>,
which solves many of the limitations of the technology by shuttling ions
around. The device reported in *Nature* features up to six qubits made of
ytterbium-171 atoms arranged in a line.

However, unlike in more conventional trapped-ion computers, they aren?t
held in place using a single static electric field. The device?s 198
electrodes can be controlled independently to dynamically vary the field,
which allows the qubits to be shifted up and down to interact with each
other.

This makes it possible for all the qubits to interact, which has major
implications for the complexity of the algorithms the machine can
implement. The importance of this kind of connectivity was actually first
brought to the fore by Honeywell?s rival, IBM, when it introduced a measure
called quantum volume
<https://singularityhub.com/2019/03/13/ibm-introduces-quantum-volume-to-track-progress-towards-the-quantum-age/>
to help track progress in the field.

Simply adding qubits to your device is only helpful if they are not too
error-prone and can actually do useful work. So IBM researchers suggested
that the true test of a quantum computer is the size of the most
complicated circuit a device can implement to a certain standard of
reliability.

The resulting metric is called quantum volume, and last year IBM achieved a
volume of 64 on its 27-qubit processor. But Honeywell shows in the paper
that it can match that figure using just six qubits thanks to the device?s
much greater connectivity, and also its low error rates.

Since the research was carried out, the company has brought the number of
qubits in its device up to 10
<https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/hardware/commercial-iontrap-quantum-computers-showing-rapid-scaleup>,
which it says can now achieve a quantum volume of 512, though the results
have yet to be peer-reviewed. The company also outlined how it plans to
scale its set up to far larger numbers of qubits.

Its current linear system has capacity for up to 40 qubits, but the company
is already testing a successor device that looks more like a race track and
could hold considerably more. The next stage will be to create a processor
featuring a grid of traps and then integrating many of these grids
together."

https://singularityhub.com/2021/04/19/honeywell-just-released-details-about-how-its-quantum-computer-works/
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 13:54:59 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:54:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>

I am a little torn: I have a Ruger .22.  Roz will have a Glock 19 gen 5 if
I get no recommendations that seem objective.  Do I need another gun?  Can
I sell my .22?  Nothing on eBay I notice.  Illegal?  She will be in the
back of the house, far from the front doors, and I am ten feet from it and
twenty feet from the only back door.  A bold break-in would likely leave
Roz far away from the action; but she will have the pistol.  I think you
are probably right and I need to get a gun that will stop someone faster
than the .22 could.  Come to think of it, I haven't thought of it.  My .22
is in the back of the house.  I'll move it up here.  This is a quiet
neighborhood, circa 50s.  Four blocks from the courthouse.

I judge my security to be inadequate.

Thanks    bill w

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 7:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> *Subject:* [ExI] pistols
>
>
>
> OK, ladies and gentlemen, recall the T shirt that some women wore?
>
> "I am out of estrogen and I have a gun."
>
>
>
> That describes my wife except that she doesn't have a gun.  So let's get
> her one.
>
> ?
>
>
>
> So - please let me have your recommendations - new guns only - accuracy
> not an issue (target shooting will be done but am not aiming for accuracy,
> just stopping power and lots of noise)
>
>     bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi BillW,
>
>
>
> Being as this is not the right forum for that discussion, I will post my
> recommendations privately.  The obvious question is OK, one for your bride,
> but what about you?  As the member of the family who is the former US
> militia man, one might think you would want to keep and bear as well.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 14:10:14 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 07:10:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRMfBbM1Kgh9cdCUTXBger=oVmFUQZndBOaKfbCxZfbsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, 6:57 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> This is a quiet neighborhood, circa 50s.  Four blocks from the courthouse.
>
> I judge my security to be inadequate.
>

Those two statements seem contradictory.  Statistically, you and your wife
would seem unlikely to face even one home invasion break in (in any
situation where having a gun would help, at least) during your expected
lifetimes assuming you never move.  (Granted, this does not take potential
substantial life extension into account, and assumes you both live to
merely 100 or so.)

>
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From monteluna at protonmail.com  Tue Apr 20 15:03:27 2021
From: monteluna at protonmail.com (JF)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 15:03:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] india, owwwww dang
In-Reply-To: <000901d73593$6ff327b0$4fd97710$@rainier66.com>
References: <000901d73593$6ff327b0$4fd97710$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <NDH_df3sMoeA5BKO8_xWDj8JBFLGkfgMT6ZOIi_oCXQnJw5JSn7_UaJNPxbOiqUBYayx0xpZ8AeylxP1JwuwTYuP8THY-LsPJqlIPFPi2HM=@protonmail.com>

My favorite statistics statement, "Compared to what?"

I feel like there's what, 1.8B people there, and no chance at any form of testing. The moment they do any testing, it's going to show a spike.

I'm somewhat optimistic because Covaxin looks like a really good vaccine, and they don't have to negotiate with other countries who want to hoard supply. They seem like they're well on the path to being able to control the virus, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have a large number of deaths that on paper look bad, but on a per-capita basis look totally normal.

The US had around 30M cases, 500K deaths, with an estimated population of 300M people. India has 1.8B people so 100M cases and 300M deaths probably is a low end "good" estimate. I'd probably go higher due to the multiplicative nature of virus spread and higher population density.

If we could get a reasonable prediction market on this with reliable data sources, I'd probably go long 300M deaths. India's just that dense.

??????? Original Message ???????
On Monday, April 19, 2021 11:15 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I was away from this for a week of camping so it came as a shock this afternoon when I started looking at numbers.
>
> The covid world new case rate hit an all-time record high, and India accounts for over a third of the new cases in the world:
>
> We have a lot of Indian friends with their families back in the old country. They are most disturbed by all this.
>
> spike
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr 20 15:28:37 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:28:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRMfBbM1Kgh9cdCUTXBger=oVmFUQZndBOaKfbCxZfbsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRMfBbM1Kgh9cdCUTXBger=oVmFUQZndBOaKfbCxZfbsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801d735f9$d5ddca10$81995e30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat



>?  Statistically, you and your wife would seem unlikely to face even one home invasion break in (in any situation where having a gun would help, at least) during your expected lifetimes ?

 

 

Atatistics are based on the past.  BillW may be anticipating changes in the future.

 

spike

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From bronto at pobox.com  Tue Apr 20 15:32:13 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:32:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5e5ff3ff-7dda-3ec4-0fd5-97e14a3c60e0@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-20 06:54, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> [...]? Roz will have a Glock 19 gen 5 
> if I get no recommendations that seem objective.? [...]

But you said she wants a manual safety, which Glocks lack.

> Can I sell my .22?? Nothing on eBay I notice.? Illegal?  

eBay policy.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 16:30:30 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 02:30:30 +1000
Subject: [ExI] india, owwwww dang
In-Reply-To: <NDH_df3sMoeA5BKO8_xWDj8JBFLGkfgMT6ZOIi_oCXQnJw5JSn7_UaJNPxbOiqUBYayx0xpZ8AeylxP1JwuwTYuP8THY-LsPJqlIPFPi2HM=@protonmail.com>
References: <000901d73593$6ff327b0$4fd97710$@rainier66.com>
 <NDH_df3sMoeA5BKO8_xWDj8JBFLGkfgMT6ZOIi_oCXQnJw5JSn7_UaJNPxbOiqUBYayx0xpZ8AeylxP1JwuwTYuP8THY-LsPJqlIPFPi2HM=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVavrLTtOPAtC4npynGAONrQRvHxC8aPOBCPEvF-BfSzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 at 01:05, JF via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> My favorite statistics statement, "*Compared to what?*"
>
> I feel like there's what, 1.8B people there, and no chance at any form of
> testing. The moment they do any testing, it's going to show a spike.
>
> I'm somewhat optimistic because Covaxin looks like a really good vaccine,
> and they don't have to negotiate with other countries who want to hoard
> supply. They seem like they're well on the path to being able to control
> the virus, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have a large number of
> deaths that on paper look bad, but on a per-capita basis look totally
> normal.
>
> The US had around 30M cases, 500K deaths, with an estimated population of
> 300M people. India has 1.8B people so 100M cases and 300M deaths probably
> is a low end "good" estimate. I'd probably go higher due to the
> multiplicative nature of virus spread and higher population density.
>
> If we could get a reasonable prediction market on this with reliable data
> sources, I'd probably go long 300M deaths. India's just that dense.
>

I think your numbers are off. India has 1.4 billion people. If they matched
the US, they would have 140 million cases and 2,300,000 deaths.


> ??????? Original Message ???????
> On Monday, April 19, 2021 11:15 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I was away from this for a week of camping so it came as a shock this
> afternoon when I started looking at numbers.
>
>
>
> The covid world new case rate hit an all-time record high, and India
> accounts for over a third of the new cases in the world:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We have a lot of Indian friends with their families back in the old
> country.  They are most disturbed by all this.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 16:43:18 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 02:43:18 +1000
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 at 23:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> >I am a little torn: I have a Ruger .22.  Roz will have a Glock 19 gen 5
if I get no recommendations that seem objective.  Do I need another gun?
Can I sell my .22?  Nothing on eBay I notice.  Illegal?  She will be in the
back of the house, far from the front doors, and I am ten feet from it and
twenty feet from the only back door.  A bold break-in would likely leave
Roz far away from the action; but she will have the pistol.  I think you
are probably right and I need to get a gun that will stop someone faster
than the .22 could.  Come to think of it, I haven't thought of it.  My .22
is in the back of the house.  I'll move it up here.  This is a quiet
neighborhood, circa 50s.  Four blocks from the courthouse.

>I judge my security to be inadequate.

You?re more likely to be killed if you have a gun at home than if you
don?t. You are the victim of a cognitive bias - feeling safer rather than
actually being safer - if you have a gun.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24054955/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15522849/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759797/

https://slate.com/technology/2015/01/good-guy-with-a-gun-myth-guns-increase-the-risk-of-homicide-accidents-suicide.html




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 17:40:18 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:40:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS8+3dTsZ09Jo3rf_xZCqoy16w45DmRHoqfzYWtm+NT0Q@mail.gmail.com>

While we're on the topic, what is the stopping power of the coilgun
depicted at https://arcflashlabs.com/product/emg-01b/ ?  The per-shot
muzzle velocity and energy is small compared to a pistol, but the rate of
fire looks like it might make up for it.  Price aside (prices fall as
things become more common, and this advertises itself as the first of its
class ever sold commercially), would this be a serious contender for a
useful self-defense weapon?

I'm thinking that, since coilguns aren't technically "firearms" under most
laws in the US, there may be less legal complications (which can be
considered a form of maintenance, such as for cost of ownership) to deal
with if someone has one of these and does not have a firearm.  There is
less (not zero, but less) legal pretext for confiscation of coilguns than
for firearms - and since coilguns are electronic anyway, it intuitively
seems easier to add biometric scanners and similar gun safety equipment.

(For those cases where one is convinced that one does need something like
this - which, as Stathis points out, is usually a false conclusion.  But in
many cases, that conclusion is essentially an a prior assumption - and in
many of those cases this is paired with a fear, which is taken far more on
faith than on evidence, that the government may eventually try to
confiscate guns with the intention of leaving common people defenseless -
so I wonder if a coilgun might be a practical solution in those cases,
since facts that challenge the assumptions and faith will be disregarded.)
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr 20 19:31:10 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 12:31:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
?

 

>?You?re more likely to be killed if you have a gun at home than if you don?t. 

 

People are more likely to die of heart failure if they take heart medication than if they don?t.  This statistic should not be cited in urging patients to not take the meds.

 

>?You are the victim of a cognitive bias - feeling safer rather than actually being safer - if you have a gun?

 

One might suppose the same argument would hold for heart medications.  I would ask my second cousin, were he still with us, but he ran out of heart medications last fall, then died a few weeks afterwards (in his case it was the mistaken belief that he no longer needed them (he did.))  I don?t know how that would count in the statistics.  He took the meds for about 15 years, but wasn?t taking them at the time of his death (by heart failure.)

 

The gun statistics fail to account for how dangerous is the neighborhood to start with.  They also fail to subtract suicides (which shouldn?t count by my way of looking at things.)

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 20:13:14 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 15:13:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbt5MLds0-4DubLQokjn1LOwPfJHFo6A1eLVyFj4HJrLQ@mail.gmail.com>

 You are the victim of a cognitive bias   stathis

Well, thanks for the kind thoughts, but I have never been in a house
without a gun of some sort.  If I give it away will I be safer?   In any
case, I wanted one for my wife.  bill w

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 11:46 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 at 23:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> >I am a little torn: I have a Ruger .22.  Roz will have a Glock 19 gen 5
> if I get no recommendations that seem objective.  Do I need another gun?
> Can I sell my .22?  Nothing on eBay I notice.  Illegal?  She will be in the
> back of the house, far from the front doors, and I am ten feet from it and
> twenty feet from the only back door.  A bold break-in would likely leave
> Roz far away from the action; but she will have the pistol.  I think you
> are probably right and I need to get a gun that will stop someone faster
> than the .22 could.  Come to think of it, I haven't thought of it.  My .22
> is in the back of the house.  I'll move it up here.  This is a quiet
> neighborhood, circa 50s.  Four blocks from the courthouse.
>
> >I judge my security to be inadequate.
>
> You?re more likely to be killed if you have a gun at home than if you
> don?t. You are the victim of a cognitive bias - feeling safer rather than
> actually being safer - if you have a gun.
>
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24054955/
>
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15522849/
>
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759797/
>
>
> https://slate.com/technology/2015/01/good-guy-with-a-gun-myth-guns-increase-the-risk-of-homicide-accidents-suicide.html
>
>
>
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 02:44:44 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:44:44 +1000
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 at 05:33, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
>
>
> >?You?re more likely to be killed if you have a gun at home than if you
> don?t.
>
>
>
> People are more likely to die of heart failure if they take heart
> medication than if they don?t.  This statistic should not be cited in
> urging patients to not take the meds.
>
>
>
> >?You are the victim of a cognitive bias - feeling safer rather than
> actually being safer - if you have a gun?
>
>
>
> One might suppose the same argument would hold for heart medications.  I
> would ask my second cousin, were he still with us, but he ran out of heart
> medications last fall, then died a few weeks afterwards (in his case it was
> the mistaken belief that he no longer needed them (he did.))  I don?t know
> how that would count in the statistics.  He took the meds for about 15
> years, but wasn?t taking them at the time of his death (by heart failure.)
>
>
>
> The gun statistics fail to account for how dangerous is the neighborhood
> to start with.  They also fail to subtract suicides (which shouldn?t count
> by my way of looking at things.)
>
Deaths include suicides, accidents, homicide of family members by another
family member and homicide by a would be burglar. The argument for guns in
the home is that they decrease the chance of the last of these happening,
but even if they did (and arguably they might INCREASE the chance that the
burglar will shoot you), it might not outweigh the risk of death from the
other causes. I don?t see why you should leave out suicide; if you have an
argument with your spouse and then shoot yourself in the head, that is a
serious problem.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Apr 21 02:54:25 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 19:54:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <cad6274d-5dda-edba-80ae-8bee7f5d543d@pobox.com>

Stathis:
>> [...] You?re more likely to be killed
>> if you have a gun at home than if you don?t.

Spike:
> People are more likely to die of heart failure if they take heart 
> medication than if they don?t.  This statistic should not be cited
> in urging patients to not take the meds.

I heard once that the study resulting in the factoid consisted of asking 
neighbors of the deceased whether they had a gun.  One might imagine 
that not everyone tells the truth to a nosy stranger on their doorstep.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 21 03:45:36 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:45:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
?

>?.I don?t see why you should leave out suicide; if you have an argument with your spouse and then shoot yourself in the head, that is a serious problem.

-- 

Stathis Papaioannou

 

 

I do see why that should be a separate category.  Suicide accounts for a large percentage of death by firearm.  If I decide I want to end it all, then that is my choice.  It isn?t the fault of the gun or the fact that I have one.  There are legitimate reasons why people make that choice, and I respect their choice.  Of all the ways to finish oneself, I would think that method would be the least painful.

 

Regarding statistics: things change.  Because of the verdict in today?s trial, life in the USA just became dramatically more dangerous.  Police everywhere in the USA will be seriously rethinking their career choices.  We can easily anticipate that plenty of them will say adios amigo to the force.  Result: they will be less likely to come to your aid in a timely manner should the bad guy come to visit.  One can scarcely blame them: their job was already dangerous enough.  Add to that the legal liability in the event they make a mistake, law enforcement is a lousy career choice.

 

Result: we the people need to be ready to carry out homeland security ourselves.  But this carries at least one advantage: far faster response time.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 21 03:52:51 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:52:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <cad6274d-5dda-edba-80ae-8bee7f5d543d@pobox.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <cad6274d-5dda-edba-80ae-8bee7f5d543d@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <004d01d73661$cdf608e0$69e21aa0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat

>...I heard once that the study resulting in the factoid consisted of asking neighbors of the deceased whether they had a gun.  One might imagine that not everyone tells the truth to a nosy stranger on their doorstep.

--
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org


_______________________________________________


Hi Anton, ja.  Revealing to pollsters if you own or do not own a gun is a bad idea, bad bad idea.  If the pollster is actually a bad guy, he will come take advantage of the unarmed, or break in to the home and steal the weapons of the armed.  Keep him guessing.

Even my doctor sends has me fill out a form which asks if I own a gun.  She knows me.  I always answer that one with: Do you feel lucky?  

Fortunately my doctor has a sense of humor.  Otherwise I would get the old one finger treatment.

Here's something we can likely all agree on: if one lives in a dangerous neighborhood, one is probably safer with a gun than without.  If one lives in a safe neighborhood, probably not.  So... how safe is your neighborhood?

spike



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 04:08:08 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:08:08 +0800
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy29HnMjAakHxQOY9DU-T1cTWRs=fOauZ=8Ku=h8LWgzfw@mail.gmail.com>

William Flynn Wallace, I would recommend for your wife any of the new breed
of high quality compact 9mm handguns. A few hours surfing and researching
will result in several good candidates for her.

Be careful and work out a system so that you and your wife don't end up
accidentally shooting each other!

Definitely get training together on the safety and use of firearms. Include
yourself even if you are a veteran or at least already knowledgeable about
guns.

And if you have not already, have a good home security system in place,
with full cctv coverage of your property. And having a dog can help, too.

Be safe! Be smart! Take care!

John  :  )



On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 11:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
> >?.I don?t see why you should leave out suicide; if you have an argument
> with your spouse and then shoot yourself in the head, that is a serious
> problem.
>
> --
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>
>
>
> I do see why that should be a separate category.  Suicide accounts for a
> large percentage of death by firearm.  If I decide I want to end it all,
> then that is my choice.  It isn?t the fault of the gun or the fact that I
> have one.  There are legitimate reasons why people make that choice, and I
> respect their choice.  Of all the ways to finish oneself, I would think
> that method would be the least painful.
>
>
>
> Regarding statistics: things change.  Because of the verdict in today?s
> trial, life in the USA just became dramatically more dangerous.  Police
> everywhere in the USA will be seriously rethinking their career choices.
> We can easily anticipate that plenty of them will say adios amigo to the
> force.  Result: they will be less likely to come to your aid in a timely
> manner should the bad guy come to visit.  One can scarcely blame them:
> their job was already dangerous enough.  Add to that the legal liability in
> the event they make a mistake, law enforcement is a lousy career choice.
>
>
>
> Result: we the people need to be ready to carry out homeland security
> ourselves.  But this carries at least one advantage: far faster response
> time.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 04:03:56 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:03:56 +1000
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 at 13:47, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
> *?*
>
> >?.I don?t see why you should leave out suicide; if you have an argument
> with your spouse and then shoot yourself in the head, that is a serious
> problem.
>
> --
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>
>
>
> I do see why that should be a separate category.  Suicide accounts for a
> large percentage of death by firearm.  If I decide I want to end it all,
> then that is my choice.  It isn?t the fault of the gun or the fact that I
> have one.  There are legitimate reasons why people make that choice, and I
> respect their choice.  Of all the ways to finish oneself, I would think
> that method would be the least painful.
>
Impulsive suicide is not really the same as, say, deciding to end your life
because you have a terminal illness. I have seen many patients over the
year who attempted suicide by overdose, woke up in hospital a few hours
later, said they felt silly and went home. If they had put a gun in their
mouth and pulled the trigger, the outcome would have been different.

> Regarding statistics: things change.  Because of the verdict in today?s
> trial, life in the USA just became dramatically more dangerous.  Police
> everywhere in the USA will be seriously rethinking their career choices.
> We can easily anticipate that plenty of them will say adios amigo to the
> force.  Result: they will be less likely to come to your aid in a timely
> manner should the bad guy come to visit.  One can scarcely blame them:
> their job was already dangerous enough.  Add to that the legal liability in
> the event they make a mistake, law enforcement is a lousy career choice.
>
>
>
> Result: we the people need to be ready to carry out homeland security
> ourselves.  But this carries at least one advantage: far faster response
> time.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From ddraig at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 04:11:46 2021
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:11:46 +1000
Subject: [ExI] india, owwwww dang
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVavrLTtOPAtC4npynGAONrQRvHxC8aPOBCPEvF-BfSzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000901d73593$6ff327b0$4fd97710$@rainier66.com>
 <NDH_df3sMoeA5BKO8_xWDj8JBFLGkfgMT6ZOIi_oCXQnJw5JSn7_UaJNPxbOiqUBYayx0xpZ8AeylxP1JwuwTYuP8THY-LsPJqlIPFPi2HM=@protonmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAGfkSy0ah09nubT1oL4WFMsnXnNmj=JC1M+KE8MVQMn+WqoPMA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 at 02:38, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 at 01:05, JF via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The US had around 30M cases, 500K deaths, with an estimated population of
>> 300M people. India has 1.8B people so 100M cases and 300M deaths probably
>> is a low end "good" estimate. I'd probably go higher due to the
>> multiplicative nature of virus spread and higher population density.
>>
>>
> I think your numbers are off. India has 1.4 billion people. If they
> matched the US, they would have 140 million cases and 2,300,000 deaths.
>



I read that as a typo, he was trying to say 100M cases and 3M deaths


-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com              ddraigbot / NSO / Connery
         ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
                   http://fav.me/dqkgpd
<http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg>
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 04:52:15 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:52:15 +0800
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3KzkdAHYcVAUaZFsEQ6g2U6Gha6Rjvapd4asar1tDbqA@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:

"Regarding statistics: things change.  Because of the verdict in today?s
trial, life in the USA just became dramatically more dangerous.  Police
everywhere in the USA will be seriously rethinking their career choices.
We can easily anticipate that plenty of them will say adios amigo to the
force.  Result: they will be less likely to come to your aid in a timely
manner should the bad guy come to visit.  One can scarcely blame them:
their job was already dangerous enough.  Add to that the legal liability in
the event they make a mistake, law enforcement is a lousy career choice."



I don't understand... Why will cops everywhere be seriously rethinking
their career choices? If you are a decent cop who does not brutalize and
murder people, you will most likely be okay. It is the bad cops who may be
rethinking their profession... Keep in mind that for the limited amount of
education required, police work generally pays fairly well. And so quitting
and finding an equally good job would be hard for many. Finally, policing
is statistically not as dangerous as many people assume.


John



On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 12:13 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 at 13:47, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
>> *?*
>>
>> >?.I don?t see why you should leave out suicide; if you have an argument
>> with your spouse and then shoot yourself in the head, that is a serious
>> problem.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I do see why that should be a separate category.  Suicide accounts for a
>> large percentage of death by firearm.  If I decide I want to end it all,
>> then that is my choice.  It isn?t the fault of the gun or the fact that I
>> have one.  There are legitimate reasons why people make that choice, and I
>> respect their choice.  Of all the ways to finish oneself, I would think
>> that method would be the least painful.
>>
> Impulsive suicide is not really the same as, say, deciding to end your
> life because you have a terminal illness. I have seen many patients over
> the year who attempted suicide by overdose, woke up in hospital a few hours
> later, said they felt silly and went home. If they had put a gun in their
> mouth and pulled the trigger, the outcome would have been different.
>
>> Regarding statistics: things change.  Because of the verdict in today?s
>> trial, life in the USA just became dramatically more dangerous.  Police
>> everywhere in the USA will be seriously rethinking their career choices.
>> We can easily anticipate that plenty of them will say adios amigo to the
>> force.  Result: they will be less likely to come to your aid in a timely
>> manner should the bad guy come to visit.  One can scarcely blame them:
>> their job was already dangerous enough.  Add to that the legal liability in
>> the event they make a mistake, law enforcement is a lousy career choice.
>>
>>
>>
>> Result: we the people need to be ready to carry out homeland security
>> ourselves.  But this carries at least one advantage: far faster response
>> time.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Apr 21 07:24:39 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 00:24:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <3fe79421-1db0-d700-0d4a-e7e1aa7b6608@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-20 20:45, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> Because of the verdict in today?s trial, life in the USA just became 
> dramatically more dangerous.? Police everywhere in the USA will be 

> seriously rethinking their career choices.

Those who are bothered by a weakening of their privilege (though I 
gather that they'll still have lifetime exemption from some facets of 
gun control) are those we can do without.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From hibbard at wisc.edu  Wed Apr 21 08:53:26 2021
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:53:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] An Information Process Perspective on Our Times
Message-ID: <6eacebec-e8b6-a627-1e50-8e7333479494@wisc.edu>

My latest rant:
https://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~billh/g/info_history.html

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 13:44:57 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:44:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy29HnMjAakHxQOY9DU-T1cTWRs=fOauZ=8Ku=h8LWgzfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaHbpwbnSd-U+wcMxUpRhdSM1tcaYFDZLbGPoxeJry3Xw@mail.gmail.com>

Every single online store I can find is out of stock of everything in the
9mm or .22 range of pistols.  I will buy new or used.  Prefer compact .22
  bill w

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 11:05 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> William Flynn Wallace, I would recommend for your wife any of the new
> breed of high quality compact 9mm handguns. A few hours surfing and
> researching will result in several good candidates for her.
>
> Be careful and work out a system so that you and your wife don't end up
> accidentally shooting each other!
>
> Definitely get training together on the safety and use of firearms.
> Include yourself even if you are a veteran or at least already
> knowledgeable about guns.
>
> And if you have not already, have a good home security system in place,
> with full cctv coverage of your property. And having a dog can help, too.
>
> Be safe! Be smart! Take care!
>
> John  :  )
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 11:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
>> *?*
>>
>> >?.I don?t see why you should leave out suicide; if you have an argument
>> with your spouse and then shoot yourself in the head, that is a serious
>> problem.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I do see why that should be a separate category.  Suicide accounts for a
>> large percentage of death by firearm.  If I decide I want to end it all,
>> then that is my choice.  It isn?t the fault of the gun or the fact that I
>> have one.  There are legitimate reasons why people make that choice, and I
>> respect their choice.  Of all the ways to finish oneself, I would think
>> that method would be the least painful.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding statistics: things change.  Because of the verdict in today?s
>> trial, life in the USA just became dramatically more dangerous.  Police
>> everywhere in the USA will be seriously rethinking their career choices.
>> We can easily anticipate that plenty of them will say adios amigo to the
>> force.  Result: they will be less likely to come to your aid in a timely
>> manner should the bad guy come to visit.  One can scarcely blame them:
>> their job was already dangerous enough.  Add to that the legal liability in
>> the event they make a mistake, law enforcement is a lousy career choice.
>>
>>
>>
>> Result: we the people need to be ready to carry out homeland security
>> ourselves.  But this carries at least one advantage: far faster response
>> time.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 21 14:15:43 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:15:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3KzkdAHYcVAUaZFsEQ6g2U6Gha6Rjvapd4asar1tDbqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3KzkdAHYcVAUaZFsEQ6g2U6Gha6Rjvapd4asar1tDbqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01d736b8$d16a83a0$743f8ae0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat
?

>?I don't understand... Why will cops everywhere be seriously rethinking their career choices? If you are a decent cop who does not brutalize and murder people, you will most likely be okay?

Note that in the famous case there were three other officers present who were not in charge but they are also on criminal trial.  Two of these guys were trainees and one had been on the job only a few weeks.  Now they are on trial for being there.

In the case of yesterday?s trial, the state?s own coroner called it an OD.  The family of the suspect hired a coroner to come up with a different call.  We didn?t find out until this week that the suspect had a blood oxygen level of 98% which is inconsistent with asphyxiation.  He kept saying he couldn?t breathe, well OK, but that O2 level disagrees.

If one is in law enforcement and gets one of those calls where some yahoo is hopped up on something, she is better off not responding, endangering her career rather than her freedom.

>... Keep in mind that for the limited amount of education required?

In the town where I live, a college degree is required to get on the force.

>? Finally, policing is statistically not as dangerous as many people assume.  John

Statistics are based on the past.  This week a congressional representative went to another state and made comments that sound a lot like incitement to riot.  Police work is plenty dangerous, at least in some areas.  I went to the office for 26 years.  In all that time, I never put on a bullet-proof vest, never had to wonder if I would come home that evening.

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 20:39:36 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:39:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] privacy rights?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEan29G81y9DkkRXivK5XFQ=2vz2LLd_=gExj4WGvOdvPQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.foxnews.com/us/norfolk-police-lieutenant-fired-donated-kyle-rittenhouse

I do not know anything about this case except what he has been accused of.

My point is about the officer who got fired for donating to his defense
fund.  I see in the news people getting fired for what they put on Twitter
and Facebook etc.  Of course you can say that if they didn't want people to
read it, they should not have posted it.

I know that the 1 st Amendment does not apply here, but firing people for
private opinions seems like a slippery slope to me.

What's next?  Neighbors reporting controversial attitudes to companies,
police depts., and so on?  Schadenfreude anyone?  Ruin someone's career or
life?  Bring back the Gestapo?  Hoover?

Gone too far I say but do not have any solutions I can live with.   bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 21 20:43:39 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:43:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaTvg6LM9H+yUubuc3izxt0fxwYsc-3aYYqi_vnK+DGpQ@mail.gmail.com>

Manhattan is no longer going to arrest prostitutes.  Hope this goes
nationwide in time.   bill w
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 00:00:04 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 20:00:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFj2hHqKTWZCJcNnmYOjBVOme1e7wph771bjBeE1z3wxBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 10:47 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Deaths include suicides, accidents, homicide of family members by another
> family member and homicide by a would be burglar. The argument for guns in
> the home is that they decrease the chance of the last of these happening,
> but even if they did (and arguably they might INCREASE the chance that the
> burglar will shoot you), it might not outweigh the risk of death from the
> other causes. I don?t see why you should leave out suicide; if you have an
> argument with your spouse and then shoot yourself in the head, that is a
> serious problem.
>
>> -


### If we were to follow this line of reasoning, Hungary, with a 1.3% gun
ownership rate should have very few suicides.... but no, the suicide rate
there is about 300% higher than in the US.

The silly gun and suicide arguments put forth by gun grabbers implicitly
assume that each sucide committed with a gun is a suicide that otherwise
would have never happened, while in fact removal of access to guns mostly
shifts suicides to other means, with hardly any impact on the total number
of suicides .

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 00:07:09 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 20:07:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 12:12 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Impulsive suicide is not really the same as, say, deciding to end your
> life because you have a terminal illness. I have seen many patients over
> the year who attempted suicide by overdose, woke up in hospital a few hours
> later, said they felt silly and went home. If they had put a gun in their
> mouth and pulled the trigger, the outcome would have been different.
>

### Suicidal gestures are common, and the common forms are overdose and
wrist slashing. Occasionally a gesture ends up badly, if the overdose is
too large and the suicide voice message is listened to too late but still
survivable overdoses are often just gestures. People don't make suicidal
gestures with guns though.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 00:19:10 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 20:19:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] What about the Aussies
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFi3E=+Zo3+30er8X-kMpWzi-=siWLRefKKDHYxu0Xau1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 6:07 AM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> What about Australia and New Zealand?
>
>>
>
### There are at least three factors involved here: Geographic isolation,
timing of the austral summer and stochasticity of viral spread at low
numbers of infected persons. While the Wuhan virus spread rapidly during
boreal winter of the Northern hemisphere, its initial appearance coincided
with the austral summer and its spread was thus slowed down in the Southern
hemisphere. Since Australia and NZ are geographically isolated there were
few seed cases and their R0 was limited by the summer weather. With a low
number of cases an epidemic is stochastic - it can spread or peter out
randomly. Add strict lockdown and the likelihood of the epidemic petering
out is higher, even in a genetically susceptible population of European
ancestry.

It is however instructive to compare Australia and NZ to Chile and
Argentina - in these countries the virus eventually spread widely, despite
draconian lockdowns - but it was out of phase with most Northern hemisphere
countries (I am giving links to my Google Drive here, graphs are copies
from ourworldindata):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tef_-cP_-uEWBhp53xx4oOXllJ4NeUVG/view?usp=sharing

Argentina and Chile did not benefit from geographic isolation as much as
A&NZ, so eventually the virus just exploded there, once the austral winter
came. Interestingly, both Australia and NZ had a slight bump in cases
during austral winter but both petered out - the number of cases was a
couple of orders of magnitude below Chile and Argentina (remember that the
population of continental South America is 400 million people with some
permeability of borders, so the absolute numbers of cases were orders of
magnitude higher, more so than you might deduce simply by looking at the
graph above which is normalized to deaths per capita).

It's instructive to look at the phases of pandemic in various countries.
Phases of spread will be influenced by timing of seed cases in relation to
local climate. Some countries, for example, UK and US, were seeded with
large numbers of cases early on during winter, resulting in a rapid spread,
then reduction of cases in the summer, then again massive outbreaks in the
following winter, until approaching herd immunity (biphasic spread). Others
like Poland and Chechia did not have many seed cases early on and nothing
happened there in winter-spring 2020 but eventually they suffered
staggering outbreaks in fall 2020-winter 2021 (monophasic spread):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xcijh-0fTDOtYs0YdyDLg9oM4aGZy0IP/view?usp=sharing

It's also instructive to look at the cumulative deaths in these countries -
regardless of monophasic or biphasic spread, the cumulative deaths trend to
a similar level eventually:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qOuUm_7nIT3lsJENdK9mVGKgeWxBdluT/view?usp=sharing

It's also useful to look at countries that differ in their public health
policies and their eventual outcomes - if you compare Sweden and the
Netherlands with their laissez-faire approaches to the pandemic with the
US, Germany, Poland and the UK with their insane Gestapo policies, there is
no difference:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15K2R9zUcvq9TIEPfEovXCN1L_YrMK2t2/view?usp=sharing

Now, there are outliers and mysteries. Look at this map:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18M_neJttyEXawVSMiMaak-GsgIeqwu-g/view?usp=sharing

Why did Finland and Norway have so few cases? Dunno. Why is all of Africa
seemingly doing so much better, except South Africa? Blacks in the US
suffer from Covid greatly, so it shouldn't be genetics that explains low
numbers for Africa - but then, Blacks in the US are not that black, with
25% European ancestry on average IIRC. Maybe it's because blacks in Africa
are thinner than their US cousins? We know obesity is a risk factor for
severe Covid infection, so maybe that's the explanation. Or maybe African
nations, being poor, just don't keep track of Covid deaths. But what about
the Arab world? Sky-high obesity rates but hardly any cases? Does something
about being Arab protect you from the virus but being Persian doesn't?
Maybe, Persians are closer genetically to Europeans, so maybe that's why
Arabs get fewer infections. But why do Jews in Israel get more infections
than Arabs in most Middle Eastern countries? Is it the European admixture
in the Ashkenazim? Who knows.

There is a lot of uncertainty but a few points can be made with reasonable
confidence:

1) Infection that affects few people is stochastic. The number of cases
will fluctuate randomly, occasionally reaching zero - which means the
epidemic ends. However, once a pandemic reaches a sufficient level of cases
it is no longer stochastic, it becomes exponential and it will spread until
herd immunity is reached, whether by surviving the infection, by culling of
susceptible individuals and their genomes, or by vaccination.
2) Geographic isolation and effective size of the population play a role in
the timing of initial cases and the likelihood of stochastic extinction of
disease.
3) The course of the pandemic is often influenced by climate, especially
with diseases spread by aerosols.
4) The eventual outcome in terms of cumulative deaths per capita is
determined primarily by the susceptibility of the population. The genetic
part of susceptibility exceeds other modifying factors by orders of
magnitude in the Wuhan virus, with European and Amerind populations having
highest susceptibility and East Asians having the lowest susceptibility,
and with substantial uncertainty (so far) regarding other clades.

Rafal
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 01:38:32 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 11:38:32 +1000
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 at 10:10, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 12:12 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Impulsive suicide is not really the same as, say, deciding to end your
>> life because you have a terminal illness. I have seen many patients over
>> the year who attempted suicide by overdose, woke up in hospital a few hours
>> later, said they felt silly and went home. If they had put a gun in their
>> mouth and pulled the trigger, the outcome would have been different.
>>
>
> ### Suicidal gestures are common, and the common forms are overdose and
> wrist slashing. Occasionally a gesture ends up badly, if the overdose is
> too large and the suicide voice message is listened to too late but still
> survivable overdoses are often just gestures. People don't make suicidal
> gestures with guns though.
>

Sometimes they are just suicidal gestures, but often the patient really
intends to die at the moment they make the attempt, but change their mind
when they wake up. On the popular imagination, you can kill yourself with
?sleeping tablets?. In the days of barbiturates and tricyclic
antidepressants that was the case, but it?s much less likely that you will
die from an overdose of benzodiazepines, SSRI?s and antipsychotics, which
are the most commonly used overdose drugs today. Guns, of course, are even
more likely to be lethal.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 16:19:41 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 11:19:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] icing
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZSKK-eZJcYK=y3kOKD485LFRTzYOw7C_MYwBSYMkjXsg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.verywellfit.com/when-to-ice-3120707

The ice sure feels good - takes my pain away.  But now it looks like its
time is over.  No evidence that icing an injury speeds healing.  In fact it
seems to slow it down.  Our body raises its temperature when we are sick.
A good kind of inflammation, it seems.  Does this mean that we should not
try to lower our fever when sick?  I think it does.  Only when temp goes
above 104 is there a danger from too much of a good thing.   bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 21:07:19 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 16:07:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chauvin
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYuw2goPeL76pYh0HxLs2L3P-g+7jAXxLcvGSrc69=C4A@mail.gmail.com>

Justice was served, no doubt.

I have been reading and looking at the pictures and a thought occurred to
me:  Chauvin looks like a person very determined to do what he sets out to
do.

Consider the situation:  he is surrounded by fellow officers and some
bystanders, one (or more?) of whom in taping.  I just have to wonder if
that made him so resistant to the remarks of the fellow officers (whose
content I do not know) that he wasn't going to let up even when Floyd
started having seizures.  Just made him more determined.  I wonder what
would have happened had there been no bystanders other than the other
officers.

Then I wondered what made him stop?  I did not find anything to tell me
that.  Does anyone know?

I did not know about the seizures before.  It makes it even more curious
that the fellow officers did not do something.  There are sorts of social
psych things going on in that scenario and I certainly do not know what
some of them are.  But I do think that social influences occurred there,
affecting Chauvin and the other officers.  Perhaps those will come out at
the next trial.

bill w
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 23:56:22 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:56:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 9:38 PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Sometimes they are just suicidal gestures, but often the patient really
> intends to die at the moment they make the attempt, but change their mind
> when they wake up.
>

### How do you know that the patient really intends to die? By listening to
what they say? If they are really trying to die, why wouldn't they use a
method that's guaranteed to work, like hanging, fall from height, gunshot
or drowning? Why do the OD suicides so often message others before the
attempt, if not to reduce the likelihood of dying and to increase the
psychological impact on the intended target?

According to:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/

the CFR for gun suicides is 82% but the CFR for poisoning (i.e. drug
overdose) is 1.5%. This is an enormous disparity. Sure, a lot of suicides
are dumb people who wouldn't think about looking up the doses of
medications they would need to take to achieve a lethal effect but really,
shouldn't the use of a method that works only 1.5% of the time be a clue
that many if not most of ODs are not serious?

Call me a cynic but after 20 years of being a neurologist I developed a
fair amount of skepticism about what the patients are telling me. As a
neurologist I have methods for detecting some types of medical lies that
are not available in most other situations, which is why I find liars all
the time. "No, I haven't missed my medications!" - your valproate level is
0, so yes, you did. "No, I haven't done cocaine in a year" - your urine
drug screen is positive for cocaine, benzos and opiates, so yes, you did.
"I am having a seizure" - no, after seeing 1000 fake seizures I know you
are not. "I am paralyzed!" - no, after seeing 1000 fake strokes I can see
you are faking it.

Earlier this week I consulted on a 36 year-old morbidly obese man who
developed complete amnesia. A day before he was supposed to start an actual
job he claimed he forgot everything - his name, age, address, whether he
has a family and all of his life so far. I asked him - Do you remember how
many legs you have? "No, not really". But maybe just approximately? More
than three? "No, I don't think so, maybe one or two". Laughable. I gave him
the diagnosis of psychogenic amnesia, or dissociative amnesia but maybe I
should have called it malingering. After all, in this way he avoided
dragging his 448 lb to work.

Rafal
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 00:06:45 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:06:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>

Seen any hysterical paralysis or blindness, Rafal?  Have you learned to
tell the lies by their body language or voice?

Women attempt suicide more than men, but men choose more fatal methods.
This is consistent with their attitudes towards aggression:  women prefer
passive; men , active. The women's suicide attempts are surely passive
aggression in addition to whatever else they may be.    bill w

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 6:59 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 9:38 PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Sometimes they are just suicidal gestures, but often the patient really
>> intends to die at the moment they make the attempt, but change their mind
>> when they wake up.
>>
>
> ### How do you know that the patient really intends to die? By listening
> to what they say? If they are really trying to die, why wouldn't they use a
> method that's guaranteed to work, like hanging, fall from height, gunshot
> or drowning? Why do the OD suicides so often message others before the
> attempt, if not to reduce the likelihood of dying and to increase the
> psychological impact on the intended target?
>
> According to:
>
> https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/
>
> the CFR for gun suicides is 82% but the CFR for poisoning (i.e. drug
> overdose) is 1.5%. This is an enormous disparity. Sure, a lot of suicides
> are dumb people who wouldn't think about looking up the doses of
> medications they would need to take to achieve a lethal effect but really,
> shouldn't the use of a method that works only 1.5% of the time be a clue
> that many if not most of ODs are not serious?
>
> Call me a cynic but after 20 years of being a neurologist I developed a
> fair amount of skepticism about what the patients are telling me. As a
> neurologist I have methods for detecting some types of medical lies that
> are not available in most other situations, which is why I find liars all
> the time. "No, I haven't missed my medications!" - your valproate level is
> 0, so yes, you did. "No, I haven't done cocaine in a year" - your urine
> drug screen is positive for cocaine, benzos and opiates, so yes, you did.
> "I am having a seizure" - no, after seeing 1000 fake seizures I know you
> are not. "I am paralyzed!" - no, after seeing 1000 fake strokes I can see
> you are faking it.
>
> Earlier this week I consulted on a 36 year-old morbidly obese man who
> developed complete amnesia. A day before he was supposed to start an actual
> job he claimed he forgot everything - his name, age, address, whether he
> has a family and all of his life so far. I asked him - Do you remember how
> many legs you have? "No, not really". But maybe just approximately? More
> than three? "No, I don't think so, maybe one or two". Laughable. I gave him
> the diagnosis of psychogenic amnesia, or dissociative amnesia but maybe I
> should have called it malingering. After all, in this way he avoided
> dragging his 448 lb to work.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 01:17:11 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:17:11 +1000
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypUK7hw+odGnhdvx+L5z-3DdKqpHb94e-erb02HzhZh7Mw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 at 09:58, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 9:38 PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Sometimes they are just suicidal gestures, but often the patient really
>> intends to die at the moment they make the attempt, but change their mind
>> when they wake up.
>>
>
> ### How do you know that the patient really intends to die? By listening
> to what they say? If they are really trying to die, why wouldn't they use a
> method that's guaranteed to work, like hanging, fall from height, gunshot
> or drowning? Why do the OD suicides so often message others before the
> attempt, if not to reduce the likelihood of dying and to increase the
> psychological impact on the intended target?
>
> According to:
>
> https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/
>
> the CFR for gun suicides is 82% but the CFR for poisoning (i.e. drug
> overdose) is 1.5%. This is an enormous disparity. Sure, a lot of suicides
> are dumb people who wouldn't think about looking up the doses of
> medications they would need to take to achieve a lethal effect but really,
> shouldn't the use of a method that works only 1.5% of the time be a clue
> that many if not most of ODs are not serious?
>

There are multiple factors to take into account in deciding if a patient is
telling the truth about their intention to suicide, and the perceived
lethality of the attempt is one. But a significant proportion of
presentations to the ED follow the pattern of had a fight with the
girlfriend - got drunk - took all the tablets in the bathroom cabinet -
woke up in ED the next day and made up with her. These people might have
died if they had a high lethality means of suicide at hand, such as a
tricyclic, lithium carbonate or a gun. In a cost-benefit analysis, it might
still be worth prescribing a tricyclic or lithium despite the risk of
overdose. But if the gun at home is intended mainly as protection against
being killed, rather than because you just enjoy owning and using guns, the
risk of death from accident, suicide or converting a burglary into a
murder, should be factored into the calculation.

Call me a cynic but after 20 years of being a neurologist I developed a
> fair amount of skepticism about what the patients are telling me. As a
> neurologist I have methods for detecting some types of medical lies that
> are not available in most other situations, which is why I find liars all
> the time. "No, I haven't missed my medications!" - your valproate level is
> 0, so yes, you did. "No, I haven't done cocaine in a year" - your urine
> drug screen is positive for cocaine, benzos and opiates, so yes, you did.
> "I am having a seizure" - no, after seeing 1000 fake seizures I know you
> are not. "I am paralyzed!" - no, after seeing 1000 fake strokes I can see
> you are faking it.
>
> Earlier this week I consulted on a 36 year-old morbidly obese man who
> developed complete amnesia. A day before he was supposed to start an actual
> job he claimed he forgot everything - his name, age, address, whether he
> has a family and all of his life so far. I asked him - Do you remember how
> many legs you have? "No, not really". But maybe just approximately? More
> than three? "No, I don't think so, maybe one or two". Laughable. I gave him
> the diagnosis of psychogenic amnesia, or dissociative amnesia but maybe I
> should have called it malingering. After all, in this way he avoided
> dragging his 448 lb to work.
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 01:44:13 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:44:13 +0800
Subject: [ExI] chauvin
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYuw2goPeL76pYh0HxLs2L3P-g+7jAXxLcvGSrc69=C4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYuw2goPeL76pYh0HxLs2L3P-g+7jAXxLcvGSrc69=C4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1xr275uPt487CYk3wg6XhYe6FrkQr32N0s-d4rwr3fdw@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to think that police departments around the nation will learn
something here about the psychology of some cops in such situations, and
adjust their vetting and training programs appropriately. But most likely
they will not...

John

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 5:11 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Justice was served, no doubt.
>
> I have been reading and looking at the pictures and a thought occurred to
> me:  Chauvin looks like a person very determined to do what he sets out to
> do.
>
> Consider the situation:  he is surrounded by fellow officers and some
> bystanders, one (or more?) of whom in taping.  I just have to wonder if
> that made him so resistant to the remarks of the fellow officers (whose
> content I do not know) that he wasn't going to let up even when Floyd
> started having seizures.  Just made him more determined.  I wonder what
> would have happened had there been no bystanders other than the other
> officers.
>
> Then I wondered what made him stop?  I did not find anything to tell me
> that.  Does anyone know?
>
> I did not know about the seizures before.  It makes it even more curious
> that the fellow officers did not do something.  There are sorts of social
> psych things going on in that scenario and I certainly do not know what
> some of them are.  But I do think that social influences occurred there,
> affecting Chauvin and the other officers.  Perhaps those will come out at
> the next trial.
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 01:57:06 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:57:06 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Fifty pages into a fun sf novel
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy29J8vw0pBX1ogV+rk+-sZfRVFjyjWC1UzEHezqvx3CXw@mail.gmail.com>

I have really enjoyed so far "The Light Brigade," by Kameron Hurley, which
is like a wonderful cross between Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" and
Gibson's "Neuromancer." An Earth ruled with an iron fist by huge
corporations is at war with mysterious Martian colonists, and they use
transporter beams to zap troops to Mars, for a never-ending war. The author
does a great job of showing just how much the corporations utterly grind
under their thumb the humans left on Earth. The characters are products of
classic tropes, and yet are three dimensional in how well they are fleshed
out. I definitely recommend the book.

John
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 01:59:04 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:59:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chauvin
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1xr275uPt487CYk3wg6XhYe6FrkQr32N0s-d4rwr3fdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1xr275uPt487CYk3wg6XhYe6FrkQr32N0s-d4rwr3fdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E750F8C2-9FAF-4DF2-A044-E0A693B203B0@gmail.com>

On Apr 22, 2021, at 6:41 PM, John Grigg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> I would like to think that police departments around the nation will learn something here about the psychology of some cops in such situations, and adjust their vetting and training programs appropriately. But most likely they will not...

I fear you?re right. It took months of protests to get this far on one case. I imagine many will think this proves the system works and believe the problem is solved.

Regards,

Dan

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 02:11:03 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:11:03 +0800
Subject: [ExI] chauvin
In-Reply-To: <E750F8C2-9FAF-4DF2-A044-E0A693B203B0@gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1xr275uPt487CYk3wg6XhYe6FrkQr32N0s-d4rwr3fdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E750F8C2-9FAF-4DF2-A044-E0A693B203B0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3Z02YUFs4=LiJMi_A+2zkURnDYy+5jb4BQfA_qCmeAcQ@mail.gmail.com>

However strong teachers unions are, police unions take it to the next level!

John

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 10:02 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Apr 22, 2021, at 6:41 PM, John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > I would like to think that police departments around the nation will
> learn something here about the psychology of some cops in such situations,
> and adjust their vetting and training programs appropriately. But most
> likely they will not...
>
> I fear you?re right. It took months of protests to get this far on one
> case. I imagine many will think this proves the system works and believe
> the problem is solved.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 02:28:58 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:28:58 +0800
Subject: [ExI] Advances in cryonics
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1JfoaxG6Wqi1vtk_G1iCW-3e1b6wg1Dfncxtrkq3u4BQ@mail.gmail.com>

I had not been aware of this 2016 breakthrough... I wonder if there was any
brainwave activity? The quote is taken from an excellent primer on the
subject of cryonics.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2016/03/cryonics.html

"And just in February of 2016, there was a cryonics breakthrough when for
the first time, scientists vitrified a rabbit?s brain and showed that once
rewarmed, it was in near-perfect condition
<https://www.rt.com/news/332074-cryonics-rabbit-brain-regenerated/>, ?with
the cell membranes, synapses, and intracellular structures intact ? [It
was] the first time a cryopreservation was provably able to protect
everything associated with learning and memory.?

https://www.brainpreservation.org/large-mammal-announcement/

"Using a combination of ultrafast glutaraldehyde fixation and very low
temperature storage, researchers have demonstrated for the first-time ever
a way to preserve a brain?s connectome (the 150 trillion synaptic
connections presumed to encode all of a person?s knowledge) for
centuries-long storage in a large mammal. This laboratory demonstration
clears the way to develop Aldehyde-Stabilized Cryopreservation into a ?last
resort? medical option, one that would prevent the destruction of the
patient?s unique connectome, offering at least some hope for future revival
via mind uploading. You can view images and videos demonstrating the
quality of the preservation method for yourself at the evaluation page
<https://www.brainpreservation.org/aldehyde-stabilized-cryopreserved-pig-brain-evaluation-images/>."


ASC in time may become a rival/alternative to vitrification. But due to its
effects on our cells, it is supposedly good at preserving information, but
not at maintaining viability for a future biological rejuvenation. And so
it would be the ideal means of trying to achieve a high quality brain scan
for a clone. As for myself, I view biological rejuvenation as an
imperative, and a brain scan downloaded into a clone as a copy of me, but
not the all important original.

I realize there are 2-3 potential threads contained within my post! Lol

John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 04:12:23 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 12:12:23 +0800
Subject: [ExI] China and Russia say they will join forces to build moon base
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy36SdX75zjiJzC+Uyz1SHLigAekJSJ_SKsQy_hyPi4ynA@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder when they will have it up and running... 2035 perhaps?

"The two countries agreed to the plans on Tuesday (March 9),  saying the
International Lunar Research Station (ILRS) would be "open to all
interested countries and international partners."

The "memorandum of understanding" between the two countries, announced by
the *China National Space Administration*
<http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/english/n6465652/n6465653/c6811380/content.html>
(CNSA), described the ILRS as a "comprehensive scientific experiment base
with the capability of long-term autonomous operation, built on the lunar
surface and/or on the lunar orbit that will carry out multi-disciplinary
and multi-objective scientific research activities such as the lunar
exploration and utilization, lunar-based observation, basic scientific
experiment and technical verification."
https://www.livescience.com/china-russia-moon-mission.html
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 04:20:39 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 21:20:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] China and Russia say they will join forces to build moon
 base
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy36SdX75zjiJzC+Uyz1SHLigAekJSJ_SKsQy_hyPi4ynA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy36SdX75zjiJzC+Uyz1SHLigAekJSJ_SKsQy_hyPi4ynA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQE67qrOKtiG1_gg24qMOL9J5HzX7A14QFLxWYf-2fENg@mail.gmail.com>

Color me skeptical.

I believe they'll try.  I believe they'll make much noise about it.  But I
also see the announced dates getting pushed back as the dates approach,
with no acknowledgement there ever were prior promised dates.

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 9:09 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I wonder when they will have it up and running... 2035 perhaps?
>
> "The two countries agreed to the plans on Tuesday (March 9),  saying the
> International Lunar Research Station (ILRS) would be "open to all
> interested countries and international partners."
>
> The "memorandum of understanding" between the two countries, announced by
> the *China National Space Administration*
> <http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/english/n6465652/n6465653/c6811380/content.html>
> (CNSA), described the ILRS as a "comprehensive scientific experiment base
> with the capability of long-term autonomous operation, built on the lunar
> surface and/or on the lunar orbit that will carry out multi-disciplinary
> and multi-objective scientific research activities such as the lunar
> exploration and utilization, lunar-based observation, basic scientific
> experiment and technical verification."
> https://www.livescience.com/china-russia-moon-mission.html
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 04:33:36 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 12:33:36 +0800
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3zf_gY3sRPGYaCJOfaDvrHHF-7qdGEpYuu1wxmrgZWRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqttQwKxnRhWBt=xAcKgP1s29FwhMQnq=vT2j6BpvM+p8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3zf_gY3sRPGYaCJOfaDvrHHF-7qdGEpYuu1wxmrgZWRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2N=X_P_5c+GjYOYOiCApnW8y6SAVOH+1j64xDgH9-yZA@mail.gmail.com>

 These Psychedelic Drugs Show Promise for Treating Mental Health Disorders

https://www.livescience.com/63310-psychedelic-drugs-mental-health-disorders.html

LSD alters consciousness by breaking down barriers in the brain

https://www.livescience.com/lsd-breaks-down-barriers-brain.html

Microdosing with 'shrooms or LSD no better than placebo, study finds

https://www.livescience.com/microdosing-lsd-placebo-effect.html

I admit to being very surprised about the third article on how microdosing
was shown to be no better than a placebo. I have read a number of articles
by people who swore by it, saying that it greatly increased their sense of
well-being and ability to focus for long periods. And of course it is now
the hip new trend in Silicon Valley, to enhance work performance.

..I wish all of these drugs would be legalized, and then utilized in
intelligent ways to enhance the lives of people. And especially to help
those who suffer from depression, anxiety and other mood disorders.

There is now a Ketamine clinic in Arizona, but health insurance does not
cover treatment, which means the initial three month therapy costs four
thousand dollars out of pocket!

John




On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 11:52 AM John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Nuala Thomson, I look forward to hearing further what you have to say... I
> find these subjects deeply fascinating....
>
> John
>
> On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 10:40 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm so sorry Bill W!
>> That is a huge question and hard to answer.
>> No matter what, every single person reacts differently and experiences
>> differently to both pharmaceuticals and illegal drugs. So the latest in DNA
>> testing to narrow down which antidepressants are more likely to help rather
>> than hinder I think is a very much needed first step.
>>
>> https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/gene-testing-to-guide-antidepressant-treatment-has-its-time-arrived-2019100917964
>> The next stage is going to be able to confirm whether it's a person's
>> state of mind/way of thinking or an actual chemical imbalance and therefore
>> whether a form of therapy (CBT, DBT, etc.) Would be better suited to them
>> over antidepressants, stabilisers, or antipsychotics. The struggle to
>> differentiate on the more suitable path is real, and quite often here
>> (Australia) doctors opt for both (therapy and drugs) simultaneously. This
>> is both good and bad.
>> I'm going to go back to gene testing for antidepressants for a moment and
>> I'm going to use 'Subject J' as an example. He had been on and off
>> antidepressants for the better part of 20 years trying to find one that
>> actually worked with acceptable side effects. I can't say what the last one
>> he took was but I can say that it was 'the one'. His neuro chemistry is
>> permanently changed and he no longer needs to take medication. This is what
>> I hope the dna tests will help to accomplish in a more acceptable time
>> frame.
>> I could talk a lot more on the use of therapy treating borderline and
>> bipolar disorders which stem from trauma but I want to touch on illicit
>> substances.
>> Again, everyone reacts differently so one person might respond to MDMA as
>> I would expect (loving, friendly, talkative, open communication) another
>> person will respond entirely differently. An example that I saw was
>> nauseous, tired, completely closed off. That person ended up just going to
>> sleep. Opposite responses will happen with everything.
>> Illicit drugs and mental illness is also a mega topic for me and typing
>> this email on a phone screen is getting frustrating.
>> Illicit substances in the use for dealing with mental illness is not as
>> funded as I would like it to be, and obviously this email started with
>> evidence that it should have more funding. MDMA in couples or marriage
>> sessions can be great as it is the love drug. People are able to openly
>> communicate coming from a place of love instead of a place of spite or
>> maliciousness. Hallucinogenics I'm assuming everyone knows how they work
>> whether or not you've actually tried any. I believe for a more permanent
>> response in the treatment of mental illness the trip should be guided. I'm
>> going to refer to my own experiences for this one. My first time ever
>> specifically. I was 18 and dating a pretty amazing person. I also have a
>> history of mental illness myself. Keeping this simple and vague; Somewhere
>> in the journey, in the span of about 30min I cycled through every possible
>> emotion processing childhood abuse. The person I was with just allowed and
>> accepted everything and listened.
>> Now for sure there is still some processing to do but not like that. That
>> was about 75% of the process complete in one go. If I had been alone in
>> that, it would not have gone like that. Long term, the benefits still blow
>> my mind.
>> It's that benefit that I hope will eventually be more accepted. Micro
>> dosing is certainly a lot safer and more easily controlled.
>> A major problem I see with mental illness and illicit drugs is the
>> habitual use as a way of masking pain and trauma. The excessive use stops
>> the healing process and causes more long term issues. I've found the people
>> in this situation are a lot less likely to seek professional help, are
>> reluctant to let someone help them, and will just continue until something
>> changes, but denial runs strong in that group.
>> And then we have the group of people (such as myself) who have
>> pre-existing mental illness, who micro dosing would be extremely beneficial
>> for, but where the risk of adverse effects is strong.
>> E.g.. Paranoid after effects.
>>
>> I'm sorry. I would love to continue but I'm truly sick of typing on a
>> phone. I would love your opinion and experiences on such topics and we can
>> continue the conversation later.
>>
>> On Sun., Apr. 18, 2021, 09:17 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 8:16 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Will, do you mean pharmaceuticals in terms of the treatment of mental
>>>> illness or something else?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's Bill W - anything at all that you know - mental illness -
>>> self-treatment for mental problems, etc.  Just the illegal drugs.   bill w
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 10:40 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nuala, what do you think of the efficacy of the drugs as far as you
>>>>> are concerned?   bill w
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 7:30 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here in Aus medical marijuana still has THC and gets you fucked up!
>>>>>> The strongest weed you could possibly get.
>>>>>> On the other hand CBD oil which is also being shown to help with
>>>>>> anxiety and depression does not contain THC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 04:00 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat,
>>>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is false  It depends:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855#:~:text=Medical%20marijuana%20%E2%80%94%20also%20called%20medical,)%20and%20CBD%20(cannabidiol
>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:37 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no
>>>>>>>>> highs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is false
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 04:41:24 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 12:41:24 +0800
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaTvg6LM9H+yUubuc3izxt0fxwYsc-3aYYqi_vnK+DGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaTvg6LM9H+yUubuc3izxt0fxwYsc-3aYYqi_vnK+DGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy34dwRp0wcHtbgRgWccmyE3z3F=jBRx6qfdpvk117XLWw@mail.gmail.com>

I just don't like that due to the ruthlessness of our current economy, that
more and more women will slip into prostitution over time. Legalizing it in
some ways will be a good thing, but still... I worry about us entering into
a second "Gilded Age..."

John

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 4:51 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Manhattan is no longer going to arrest prostitutes.  Hope this goes
> nationwide in time.   bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Fri Apr 23 04:53:38 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 21:53:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy34dwRp0wcHtbgRgWccmyE3z3F=jBRx6qfdpvk117XLWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaTvg6LM9H+yUubuc3izxt0fxwYsc-3aYYqi_vnK+DGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy34dwRp0wcHtbgRgWccmyE3z3F=jBRx6qfdpvk117XLWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6dda7b33-6421-4880-ff37-52c10951c2b3@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-22 21:41, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> I just don't like that due to the ruthlessness of our current economy, 
> that more and more women will slip into prostitution over time. 
> Legalizing it in some ways will be a good thing, but still...
> I worry about us entering into a second "Gilded Age..."

How does it help them to persecute them?

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 05:03:24 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:03:24 +1000
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy34dwRp0wcHtbgRgWccmyE3z3F=jBRx6qfdpvk117XLWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaTvg6LM9H+yUubuc3izxt0fxwYsc-3aYYqi_vnK+DGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy34dwRp0wcHtbgRgWccmyE3z3F=jBRx6qfdpvk117XLWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVdxsPpZC_cOPAkb1Ct7GDO+dK-Ha0g0AtrYRS6sx8jCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 at 14:37, John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I just don't like that due to the ruthlessness of our current economy,
> that more and more women will slip into prostitution over time. Legalizing
> it in some ways will be a good thing, but still... I worry about us
> entering into a second "Gilded Age..."
>

The women who are themselves involved, or have had some sort of experience
in the sex industry, are surprisingly polarised, from those who think it is
fundamentally misogynistic and should be banned to those who think it is a
legitimate job like any other and it is chauvinistic to consider that women
need to be rescued from it.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 05:11:27 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 13:11:27 +0800
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <6dda7b33-6421-4880-ff37-52c10951c2b3@pobox.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaTvg6LM9H+yUubuc3izxt0fxwYsc-3aYYqi_vnK+DGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy34dwRp0wcHtbgRgWccmyE3z3F=jBRx6qfdpvk117XLWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6dda7b33-6421-4880-ff37-52c10951c2b3@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1KJkFf3F_X--vL3V9U_VfcVgQ_7-3Bv9LUVM9V_qUAeg@mail.gmail.com>

 On 2021-4-22 21:41, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> I just don't like that due to the ruthlessness of our current economy,
> that more and more women will slip into prostitution over time.
> Legalizing it in some ways will be a good thing, but still...
> I worry about us entering into a second "Gilded Age..."

Anton Sherwood replied:
"How does it help them to persecute them?"

Perhaps less women will enter into the field, and do more productive and
psychologically healthy things with their lives...

John

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 12:57 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2021-4-22 21:41, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> > I just don't like that due to the ruthlessness of our current economy,
> > that more and more women will slip into prostitution over time.
> > Legalizing it in some ways will be a good thing, but still...
> > I worry about us entering into a second "Gilded Age..."
>
> How does it help them to persecute them?
>
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 05:19:13 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 13:19:13 +0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Every_State=E2=80=99s_Most-Searched_Conspiracy_T?=
 =?utf-8?q?heory?=
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3OFOwVCeO8xV9y6pJYqLiGLiv7=roQaabE8H4nT0tqJg@mail.gmail.com>

"Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory. Even if you don?t put much stock
in them, the juicy topics are compelling enough to entertain during a
dinner party or provide a much needed respite from business at the tail end
of a Zoom meeting during an otherwise typical 9-5.

Given their tendency to turn the mild into the obsessive, it?s no surprise
that many conspiracy theories have entered popular culture in the form of
movies, television and docuseries, and documentaries. With the right TV
service <https://www.usdirect.com/packages>, you can even access most of
these titles for your own entertainment?masterpieces, satires, and spoofs
alike.

USDirect set out on a serious mission to uncover which conspiracy theories
keep a hefty number of each state?s citizens up at night. We combed through
the mothership of all intrigue databases, Reddit, for each state?s
most-searched conspiracy theories and ended up with 9 mind-boggling topics.
If you?re ready to dive down one heck of a rabbit hole, proceed with
enthusiasm. We know you?ll get to the bottom of it.

And always remember: if the *X Files *taught us anything, it?s that the
truth is out there."

https://www.usdirect.com/resources/most-searched-conspiracy-theories-list-by-state/
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 06:10:44 2021
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 14:10:44 +0800
Subject: [ExI] The "unintentional humor" of the CCP
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2jS0232k00C+c8A94twJBnTu8As+Vm1Er=n2dB4Spfeg@mail.gmail.com>

China actually lashed out at an Icelandic pensioner as if the man were a
serious enemy of the state! Lol

What a ridiculous story...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDDQSgH4YQ0

John
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 07:36:38 2021
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 03:36:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] chauvin
In-Reply-To: <E750F8C2-9FAF-4DF2-A044-E0A693B203B0@gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1xr275uPt487CYk3wg6XhYe6FrkQr32N0s-d4rwr3fdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E750F8C2-9FAF-4DF2-A044-E0A693B203B0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGV43BeuEE=EkznTbmU=AYKzBqKho18tscOzC3NM52Uag@mail.gmail.com>

Which is why the retributive justice system is flawed in the first place.

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 10:00 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Apr 22, 2021, at 6:41 PM, John Grigg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > I would like to think that police departments around the nation will
> learn something here about the psychology of some cops in such situations,
> and adjust their vetting and training programs appropriately. But most
> likely they will not...
>
> I fear you?re right. It took months of protests to get this far on one
> case. I imagine many will think this proves the system works and believe
> the problem is solved.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 14:08:38 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:08:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2N=X_P_5c+GjYOYOiCApnW8y6SAVOH+1j64xDgH9-yZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqttQwKxnRhWBt=xAcKgP1s29FwhMQnq=vT2j6BpvM+p8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3zf_gY3sRPGYaCJOfaDvrHHF-7qdGEpYuu1wxmrgZWRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy2N=X_P_5c+GjYOYOiCApnW8y6SAVOH+1j64xDgH9-yZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbBqbt-dCNoNEDuLuHw+q00WwCmtKYAfDnbp+N01D+kSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Nearly everyone underestimates the power of the placebo effect.  Or even
think it's not real - as if mental was not real.   bill w

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 11:31 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> These Psychedelic Drugs Show Promise for Treating Mental Health Disorders
>
>
> https://www.livescience.com/63310-psychedelic-drugs-mental-health-disorders.html
>
> LSD alters consciousness by breaking down barriers in the brain
>
> https://www.livescience.com/lsd-breaks-down-barriers-brain.html
>
> Microdosing with 'shrooms or LSD no better than placebo, study finds
>
> https://www.livescience.com/microdosing-lsd-placebo-effect.html
>
> I admit to being very surprised about the third article on how microdosing
> was shown to be no better than a placebo. I have read a number of articles
> by people who swore by it, saying that it greatly increased their sense of
> well-being and ability to focus for long periods. And of course it is now
> the hip new trend in Silicon Valley, to enhance work performance.
>
> ..I wish all of these drugs would be legalized, and then utilized in
> intelligent ways to enhance the lives of people. And especially to help
> those who suffer from depression, anxiety and other mood disorders.
>
> There is now a Ketamine clinic in Arizona, but health insurance does not
> cover treatment, which means the initial three month therapy costs four
> thousand dollars out of pocket!
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 11:52 AM John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Nuala Thomson, I look forward to hearing further what you have to say...
>> I find these subjects deeply fascinating....
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 10:40 AM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm so sorry Bill W!
>>> That is a huge question and hard to answer.
>>> No matter what, every single person reacts differently and experiences
>>> differently to both pharmaceuticals and illegal drugs. So the latest in DNA
>>> testing to narrow down which antidepressants are more likely to help rather
>>> than hinder I think is a very much needed first step.
>>>
>>> https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/gene-testing-to-guide-antidepressant-treatment-has-its-time-arrived-2019100917964
>>> The next stage is going to be able to confirm whether it's a person's
>>> state of mind/way of thinking or an actual chemical imbalance and therefore
>>> whether a form of therapy (CBT, DBT, etc.) Would be better suited to them
>>> over antidepressants, stabilisers, or antipsychotics. The struggle to
>>> differentiate on the more suitable path is real, and quite often here
>>> (Australia) doctors opt for both (therapy and drugs) simultaneously. This
>>> is both good and bad.
>>> I'm going to go back to gene testing for antidepressants for a moment
>>> and I'm going to use 'Subject J' as an example. He had been on and off
>>> antidepressants for the better part of 20 years trying to find one that
>>> actually worked with acceptable side effects. I can't say what the last one
>>> he took was but I can say that it was 'the one'. His neuro chemistry is
>>> permanently changed and he no longer needs to take medication. This is what
>>> I hope the dna tests will help to accomplish in a more acceptable time
>>> frame.
>>> I could talk a lot more on the use of therapy treating borderline and
>>> bipolar disorders which stem from trauma but I want to touch on illicit
>>> substances.
>>> Again, everyone reacts differently so one person might respond to MDMA
>>> as I would expect (loving, friendly, talkative, open communication) another
>>> person will respond entirely differently. An example that I saw was
>>> nauseous, tired, completely closed off. That person ended up just going to
>>> sleep. Opposite responses will happen with everything.
>>> Illicit drugs and mental illness is also a mega topic for me and typing
>>> this email on a phone screen is getting frustrating.
>>> Illicit substances in the use for dealing with mental illness is not as
>>> funded as I would like it to be, and obviously this email started with
>>> evidence that it should have more funding. MDMA in couples or marriage
>>> sessions can be great as it is the love drug. People are able to openly
>>> communicate coming from a place of love instead of a place of spite or
>>> maliciousness. Hallucinogenics I'm assuming everyone knows how they work
>>> whether or not you've actually tried any. I believe for a more permanent
>>> response in the treatment of mental illness the trip should be guided. I'm
>>> going to refer to my own experiences for this one. My first time ever
>>> specifically. I was 18 and dating a pretty amazing person. I also have a
>>> history of mental illness myself. Keeping this simple and vague; Somewhere
>>> in the journey, in the span of about 30min I cycled through every possible
>>> emotion processing childhood abuse. The person I was with just allowed and
>>> accepted everything and listened.
>>> Now for sure there is still some processing to do but not like that.
>>> That was about 75% of the process complete in one go. If I had been alone
>>> in that, it would not have gone like that. Long term, the benefits still
>>> blow my mind.
>>> It's that benefit that I hope will eventually be more accepted. Micro
>>> dosing is certainly a lot safer and more easily controlled.
>>> A major problem I see with mental illness and illicit drugs is the
>>> habitual use as a way of masking pain and trauma. The excessive use stops
>>> the healing process and causes more long term issues. I've found the people
>>> in this situation are a lot less likely to seek professional help, are
>>> reluctant to let someone help them, and will just continue until something
>>> changes, but denial runs strong in that group.
>>> And then we have the group of people (such as myself) who have
>>> pre-existing mental illness, who micro dosing would be extremely beneficial
>>> for, but where the risk of adverse effects is strong.
>>> E.g.. Paranoid after effects.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry. I would love to continue but I'm truly sick of typing on a
>>> phone. I would love your opinion and experiences on such topics and we can
>>> continue the conversation later.
>>>
>>> On Sun., Apr. 18, 2021, 09:17 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 8:16 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Will, do you mean pharmaceuticals in terms of the treatment of mental
>>>>> illness or something else?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's Bill W - anything at all that you know - mental illness -
>>>> self-treatment for mental problems, etc.  Just the illegal drugs.   bill w
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 10:40 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nuala, what do you think of the efficacy of the drugs as far as you
>>>>>> are concerned?   bill w
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 7:30 PM Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here in Aus medical marijuana still has THC and gets you fucked up!
>>>>>>> The strongest weed you could possibly get.
>>>>>>> On the other hand CBD oil which is also being shown to help with
>>>>>>> anxiety and depression does not contain THC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat., Apr. 17, 2021, 04:00 William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>> extropy-chat, <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no highs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is false  It depends:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855#:~:text=Medical%20marijuana%20%E2%80%94%20also%20called%20medical,)%20and%20CBD%20(cannabidiol
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 11:37 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:09 PM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but medical marijuana has the THC taken out of it - no
>>>>>>>>>> highs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is false
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 23 16:11:07 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 09:11:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbBqbt-dCNoNEDuLuHw+q00WwCmtKYAfDnbp+N01D+kSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqttQwKxnRhWBt=xAcKgP1s29FwhMQnq=vT2j6BpvM+p8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3zf_gY3sRPGYaCJOfaDvrHHF-7qdGEpYuu1wxmrgZWRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy2N=X_P_5c+GjYOYOiCApnW8y6SAVOH+1j64xDgH9-yZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbBqbt-dCNoNEDuLuHw+q00WwCm tKYAfDnbp+N01D+kSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004f01d7385b$4504c980$cf0e5c80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as antidepressants, small study finds

 

 

 

>?Nearly everyone underestimates the power of the placebo effect.  Or even think it's not real - as if mental was not real.   bill w

 

 

Not me Billw, I overestimate it, intentionally, because of a remarkable discovery.  Read on please sir.  

 

If one has sufficient belief in the placebo effect, one can save time and money by skipping the fake medication or therapy, which one would know (by itself) is ineffective against the malady, but one knows the placebo effect works even if one doesn?t believe in it.  In order for the placebo effect to work under those circumstances, one must imagine one ate the fake medication or underwent the fake therapy.  This is what I call the placebo squared effect.

 

I have a recent example.  I injured my back so severely a few yrs ago I couldn?t even drive my car.  In desperate agony, I walked to a nearby chiropractor, a questionable therapy I had previously refused because of its pseudoscientific nature.  It worked!  I recovered completely in a few days.

 

On a camping trip last week, I injured my back severely once again, same place (lumbar 4.)  Being on the road on the way out and not wanting to spoil my family?s trip, I had not the option to visit a chiropractor, so I resorted to the placebo squared effect.  I imagined I went to the chiropractor and underwent what I think is a placebo effect therapy.  It worked!  I recovered in a few days.

 

The difference this time was that I had no ?doctor? bills to pay afterwards, for placebo squared therapy is free of charge and best of all, it does not require a ?doctor? putting her gropey paws on me, which I find most distasteful.

 

You?re quite welcome, my pleasure sir.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 16:54:53 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:54:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <004f01d7385b$4504c980$cf0e5c80$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqttQwKxnRhWBt=xAcKgP1s29FwhMQnq=vT2j6BpvM+p8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3zf_gY3sRPGYaCJOfaDvrHHF-7qdGEpYuu1wxmrgZWRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy2N=X_P_5c+GjYOYOiCApnW8y6SAVOH+1j64xDgH9-yZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbBqbt-dCNoNEDuLuHw+q00WwCmtKYAfDnbp+N01D+kSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004f01d7385b$4504c980$cf0e5c80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYrCEDAvjjwguWfhce1VajWb4Yvm-moZ2O2JMrzGgnUuw@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, why do you keep hurting your back?  Expecting different results from
what you are doing?  Are you doing your stretches?  Core exercises?  Good
habits to start at your age.   And buy a TENS unit:  brand iReliev
preferred.

Most things don't last for very long, with or without treatment.  Your
experience does not mean that the prior chiropractor treatment didn't
work.  bill w

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
> antidepressants, small study finds
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Nearly everyone underestimates the power of the placebo effect.  Or
> even think it's not real - as if mental was not real.   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Not me Billw, I overestimate it, intentionally, because of a remarkable
> discovery.  Read on please sir.
>
>
>
> If one has sufficient belief in the placebo effect, one can save time and
> money by skipping the fake medication or therapy, which one would know (by
> itself) is ineffective against the malady, but one knows the placebo effect
> works even if one doesn?t believe in it.  In order for the placebo effect
> to work under those circumstances, one must imagine one ate the fake
> medication or underwent the fake therapy.  This is what I call the placebo
> squared effect.
>
>
>
> I have a recent example.  I injured my back so severely a few yrs ago I
> couldn?t even drive my car.  In desperate agony, I walked to a nearby
> chiropractor, a questionable therapy I had previously refused because of
> its pseudoscientific nature.  It worked!  I recovered completely in a few
> days.
>
>
>
> On a camping trip last week, I injured my back severely once again, same
> place (lumbar 4.)  Being on the road on the way out and not wanting to
> spoil my family?s trip, I had not the option to visit a chiropractor, so I
> resorted to the placebo squared effect.  I imagined I went to the
> chiropractor and underwent what I think is a placebo effect therapy.  It
> worked!  I recovered in a few days.
>
>
>
> The difference this time was that I had no ?doctor? bills to pay
> afterwards, for placebo squared therapy is free of charge and best of all,
> it does not require a ?doctor? putting her gropey paws on me, which I find
> most distasteful.
>
>
>
> You?re quite welcome, my pleasure sir.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Apr 23 20:21:58 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 21:21:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <mailman.185.1619163424.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.185.1619163424.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <2e66d4d5-5080-eb26-bc7a-a41d6a888ada@zaiboc.net>

On 23/04/2021 08:37, John Grigg wrote:
> On 2021-4-22 21:41, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:
> > I just don't like that due to the ruthlessness of our current economy,
> > that more and more women will slip into prostitution over time.
> > Legalizing it in some ways will be a good thing, but still...
> > I worry about us entering into a second "Gilded Age..."
>
> Anton Sherwood replied:
> "How does it help them to persecute them?"
>
> Perhaps less women will enter into the field, and do more productive 
> and psychologically healthy things with their lives...

Ouch!

Judgemental, much?

Do you seriously not see that comment as extremely bigoted? (not to 
mention condescending)

Or was it a joke?

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 23 20:22:04 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 13:22:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] those who are going to, did already
Message-ID: <002d01d7387e$53e5c1c0$fbb14540$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

The covid pandemic was different than most in that the fatalities were
concentrated in the elderly and people with a lot of other health problems,
as opposed to something like the plague, which took people without regard to
previous state of health.  The plague would leave behind a smaller
population whose overall health was about the same as before.  But the covid
pandemic can be seen to have left a surviving smaller population whose
overall health is better and average age is younger.

 

Do check my reasoning on that last conjecture.

 

The CDC has a remarkable data site which illustrates what I think we are
seeing.  Here's the data from the past four years:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

 

 



 

Zooming in, notice what has been happening recently:

 



 

 

As the vaccine drives the population toward herd immunity, the blue bars
will go away, but the real signal catching my attention is how far below the
orange (average) line are the green bars.  They are below the average
mortality by a huge margin for the past several weeks.  We can ignore the
data from about the last coupla weeks because it takes a while to get all
the reports processed, but even if we ignore those, the average mortality is
down.

 

During the pandemic, we know there were plenty of suicides, perhaps because
of despondency over a failed business.  I lost a young second cousin that
way.  But at some point, most of those who are susceptible to suicide have
done it already, leaving fewer suicidal people in the general population.

 

Does not this chart illustrate that covid left behind a younger healthier
population?

 

spike

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Apr 23 20:28:36 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 21:28:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Advances in cryonics
In-Reply-To: <mailman.185.1619163424.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.185.1619163424.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <2ade4331-b427-49ec-944d-a53d97ac5de9@zaiboc.net>

On 23/04/2021 08:37, John Grigg wrote:
> I view biological rejuvenation as an imperative, and a brain scan 
> downloaded into a clone as a copy of me, but not the all important 
> original.

Can you expand on why you think that your brain, made of atoms, that we 
know are totally interchangeable with other atoms of the same type, is 
'all-important', yet the information that comprises your mind, is 'just 
a copy', and not really you at all?

Presumably you don't think the concept of 'branching identity' has any 
validity?

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 23 20:54:38 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 13:54:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <2e66d4d5-5080-eb26-bc7a-a41d6a888ada@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.185.1619163424.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <2e66d4d5-5080-eb26-bc7a-a41d6a888ada@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <004e01d73882$e0577190$a10654b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Ben via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians

 

On 23/04/2021 08:37, John Grigg wrote:



On 2021-4-22 21:41, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote:



>> I just don't like that due to the ruthlessness of our current economy.
John

 

But John, our current economy has more ruth than ever before in history.  It
is getting more ruthful all the time.

 

 

>.Anton Sherwood replied:

.

>.Perhaps less women will enter into the field, and do more productive and
psychologically healthy things with their lives... Anton





Earlier today someone commented about polarization in attitude of retired
harlots.  When I saw that, it occurred to me that there are those who go
into no-collar work out of economic necessity and those who go into that
profession because they just like it (Hey cool, we can get PAID for this?
Really?  OK, sure sign me up!)  One might suppose there is some overlap in
those two groups but plenty who are in one camp or another.

 

Let us put aside for the moment other considerations and imagine all
prostitution is legal.  Without that legal risk or liability, the cost of
the service would likely go down, which might compel fewer into the field if
they did not enjoy that particular line of work, while perhaps attracting a
compensating number of sex enthusiasts who would otherwise stay out because
they didn't want to risk their day job with an arrest.  We could imagine
part timers taking it up, perhaps curious amateurs, lonely singles, that
sort of thing.  Such a notion might give a new and literal meaning to the
term "moonlighters."

 

Result: harlots as a group would be a more satisfied group of workers.  I
don't know this, for it isn't my world, but I would speculate that the
customer base would enjoy a better product if the supplier is more satisfied
with his or her career choice.  This sounds like a win-win situation to me.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 23 21:05:03 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 14:05:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <004e01d73882$e0577190$a10654b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.185.1619163424.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <2e66d4d5-5080-eb26-bc7a-a41d6a888ada@zaiboc.net>
 <004e01d73882$e0577190$a10654b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



>.We could imagine part timers taking it up, perhaps curious amateurs,
lonely singles, that sort of thing.  Such a notion might give a new and
literal meaning to the term "moonlighters.".  spike

 

 

 

The imagination runs wild.  You go to a house of repute (the "ill" part goes
away if the activity is perfectly legal) and fill out your form explaining
what you are looking for, check off the boxes.  The madame (or monsieur (one
wonders if the French are pissed off about our use of those terms to mean
one who runs prostitution)) asks if you are good with a part-timer who has a
day job.  You answer "Of course, in fact that is highly preferred, for I do
not wish to buy these services from someone doing this out of financial
necessity."

 

Very well sir, one moment please.  Intercom, 'Beth, a customer awaits.'

 

Your boss walks in, "Hi, I'm Beth, and I'll be your."

 

Major weirdness results, along with hilarity of the kind you might wish to
exclude from your annual Christmas letter.

 

spike

 

 

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From nuala.t at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 00:31:15 2021
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 10:31:15 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYrCEDAvjjwguWfhce1VajWb4Yvm-moZ2O2JMrzGgnUuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqttQwKxnRhWBt=xAcKgP1s29FwhMQnq=vT2j6BpvM+p8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3zf_gY3sRPGYaCJOfaDvrHHF-7qdGEpYuu1wxmrgZWRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy2N=X_P_5c+GjYOYOiCApnW8y6SAVOH+1j64xDgH9-yZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbBqbt-dCNoNEDuLuHw+q00WwCmtKYAfDnbp+N01D+kSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004f01d7385b$4504c980$cf0e5c80$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYrCEDAvjjwguWfhce1VajWb4Yvm-moZ2O2JMrzGgnUuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEc3cqvX7V2eF0xQBqYN+RrpVWHXH_wMmq2dDePAzzzDaabzMw@mail.gmail.com>

Placebo effects are extremely effective for some people. The power of
brains and what and how we think affecting our lives never ceases to amaze
me.
That reminded me of a couple stories I heard once but cannot find reputable
sources to share.
Cancer and "spontaneous regression", and law of attraction used in terms of
health. Then all the religious stuff of miracle cures and what-have-you.
Are you able to share more deeply what is going on in your head for placebo
squared? I'm more than happy to try that on myself instead of another elbow
operation!


On Sat., Apr. 24, 2021, 02:58 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Spike, why do you keep hurting your back?  Expecting different results
> from what you are doing?  Are you doing your stretches?  Core exercises?
> Good habits to start at your age.   And buy a TENS unit:  brand iReliev
> preferred.
>
> Most things don't last for very long, with or without treatment.  Your
> experience does not mean that the prior chiropractor treatment didn't
> work.  bill w
>
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
>> antidepressants, small study finds
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >?Nearly everyone underestimates the power of the placebo effect.  Or
>> even think it's not real - as if mental was not real.   bill w
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Not me Billw, I overestimate it, intentionally, because of a remarkable
>> discovery.  Read on please sir.
>>
>>
>>
>> If one has sufficient belief in the placebo effect, one can save time and
>> money by skipping the fake medication or therapy, which one would know (by
>> itself) is ineffective against the malady, but one knows the placebo effect
>> works even if one doesn?t believe in it.  In order for the placebo effect
>> to work under those circumstances, one must imagine one ate the fake
>> medication or underwent the fake therapy.  This is what I call the placebo
>> squared effect.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a recent example.  I injured my back so severely a few yrs ago I
>> couldn?t even drive my car.  In desperate agony, I walked to a nearby
>> chiropractor, a questionable therapy I had previously refused because of
>> its pseudoscientific nature.  It worked!  I recovered completely in a few
>> days.
>>
>>
>>
>> On a camping trip last week, I injured my back severely once again, same
>> place (lumbar 4.)  Being on the road on the way out and not wanting to
>> spoil my family?s trip, I had not the option to visit a chiropractor, so I
>> resorted to the placebo squared effect.  I imagined I went to the
>> chiropractor and underwent what I think is a placebo effect therapy.  It
>> worked!  I recovered in a few days.
>>
>>
>>
>> The difference this time was that I had no ?doctor? bills to pay
>> afterwards, for placebo squared therapy is free of charge and best of all,
>> it does not require a ?doctor? putting her gropey paws on me, which I find
>> most distasteful.
>>
>>
>>
>> You?re quite welcome, my pleasure sir.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 01:42:03 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 20:42:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] chomsky
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZBPQHOvE_PP=hSJqUwisbz==jyo39Ew15S04h4EcAX6Q@mail.gmail.com>

I read where his favorite philosopher is Hume - mine too.  So I think I'd
like to start with a basic political book of his that does not include his
language theories

Suggestions?    bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 24 01:44:14 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 18:44:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as
 antidepressants, small study finds
In-Reply-To: <CAEc3cqvX7V2eF0xQBqYN+RrpVWHXH_wMmq2dDePAzzzDaabzMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0SxqWij+kgmNLqFJjqGRBBPS6y87qkCJLwYeAKhyrfQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquFwsqufjaDDoT3gjwj2AjYijvS=z27n5UQ2rNKHGHaZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYmSVhp16s5M9-dRS2Vk2xq3oH9n0Y2vQ7Jx18mv8OLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqv0cU3cuG0W0=nH_HciCOOjPrBj07CctX=C2_o8rfi9iQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-y=s1Az+OPKsU8j_-nKc2mm8dyspC7a3DGRJifLQRNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEgqfBXjWBtGnXjNP7PaAg95MN=WE5ZGmWUWT=_wtge9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbnkxjGx4WVafGqeZen+Vw3EzeP0KMdSsm93vG2oaA0nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cquMvEf-zG2M+kdJn9oy8D1cAvfrcPKJwNeA57OSm+uE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ6fgeS3g1Rm_ETyDNORG4pJ94_TfumZzJTgS1M-08R-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqugyEX5nnoQFT+vbMstUGKq=K5jC0j0Q4cfR4o8f=oJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZuJVh++QpexHSVLghEgEZGD7QW8vO+iqgdS5U=-5XmUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqttQwKxnRhWBt=xAcKgP1s29FwhMQnq=vT2j6BpvM+p8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3zf_gY3sRPGYaCJOfaDvrHHF-7qdGEpYuu1wxmrgZWRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy2N=X_P_5c+GjYOYOiCApnW8y6SAVOH+1j64xDgH9-yZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbBqbt-dCNoNEDuLuHw+q00WwCm tKYAfDnbp+N01D+kSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004f01d7385b$4504c980$cf0e5c80$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYrCEDAvjjwguWfhce1VajWb4Yvm-moZ2O2JMrzGgnUuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEc3cqvX7V2eF0xQBqYN+RrpVWHXH_wMmq2dDePAzzzDaabzMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401d738ab$55a5eee0$00f1cca0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 5:31 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Nuala Thomson <nuala.t at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as antidepressants, small study finds

 

>?Placebo effects are extremely effective for some people. The power of brains and what and how we think affecting our lives never ceases to amaze me.

That reminded me of a couple stories I heard once but cannot find reputable sources to share.

Cancer and "spontaneous regression", and law of attraction used in terms of health. Then all the religious stuff of miracle cures and what-have-you.

Are you able to share more deeply what is going on in your head for placebo squared? I'm more than happy to try that on myself instead of another elbow operation!

 

 

 

Hi Nuala, well in all honesty I must reluctantly confess that placebo squared doesn?t always work.  

 

For instance?  when I was a teenager, my prospects were few but the instinct was at a level that could be plausibly be called a malady.  I heard that cold showers would help cure that, bzzzt, they don?t.  I heard that potassium nitrate was supposed to do the trick, but that didn?t work either.  So I tried to imagine some kind of at least temporary cure, but the teenage hormones overpowered even the mighty placebo squared effect.  Mistakes were made.  More specifically, a fool was made, of myself.  Eh, plenty of us here were teenagers at some point.  Life should have a reset button of some sort, where our teenage years were just a practice run and the foolish embarrassing epic fails are deleted, or at least diminished.

 

Fortunately for me, my capacity for enduring embarrassment knows no bounds.

 

Regarding hurting my back: it goes back to an injury I sustained at age 10 in a fall.  It never quite healed right, but I dealt with it.  Now, after the chiropractor experience and the times I just had to tough it out, I believe in that case I just hafta get tough, wait for nature to take her leisurely course.

 

I do apologize madam, for I have no wisdom to bestow upon my faithful minion regarding your elbow.  I am an absurdly smart guy, a legend in my own mind.  But I ain?t no doctor, don?t even play one on the internet.  

 

If it doesn?t get better on its own, look at it this way: you and I are fortunate in that we were born so late in history.  No doubt you are still more fortunate than I in that regard.  Medical science has advanced to the point where they have a lotta stuff in their bag of tricks.  Back in the olden days, they would tie a sling on it and demand you get back to work with your good arm.  This observation led to my comment to Johnny Grigg about the ruthfulness of our economy: things are better than they used to be.  

 

See your medic.  Best wishes to you, young lady.  May you recover soon and fully.  I need all the minions I can get.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sat., Apr. 24, 2021, 02:58 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat, <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Spike, why do you keep hurting your back?  Expecting different results from what you are doing?  Are you doing your stretches?  Core exercises?  Good habits to start at your age.   And buy a TENS unit:  brand iReliev preferred.

 

Most things don't last for very long, with or without treatment.  Your experience does not mean that the prior chiropractor treatment didn't work.  bill w

 

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: [ExI] 'Magic mushroom' compound may work just as well as antidepressants, small study finds

 

 

 

>?Nearly everyone underestimates the power of the placebo effect.  Or even think it's not real - as if mental was not real.   bill w

 

 

Not me Billw, I overestimate it, intentionally, because of a remarkable discovery.  Read on please sir.  

 

If one has sufficient belief in the placebo effect, one can save time and money by skipping the fake medication or therapy, which one would know (by itself) is ineffective against the malady, but one knows the placebo effect works even if one doesn?t believe in it.  In order for the placebo effect to work under those circumstances, one must imagine one ate the fake medication or underwent the fake therapy.  This is what I call the placebo squared effect.

 

I have a recent example.  I injured my back so severely a few yrs ago I couldn?t even drive my car.  In desperate agony, I walked to a nearby chiropractor, a questionable therapy I had previously refused because of its pseudoscientific nature.  It worked!  I recovered completely in a few days.

 

On a camping trip last week, I injured my back severely once again, same place (lumbar 4.)  Being on the road on the way out and not wanting to spoil my family?s trip, I had not the option to visit a chiropractor, so I resorted to the placebo squared effect.  I imagined I went to the chiropractor and underwent what I think is a placebo effect therapy.  It worked!  I recovered in a few days.

 

The difference this time was that I had no ?doctor? bills to pay afterwards, for placebo squared therapy is free of charge and best of all, it does not require a ?doctor? putting her gropey paws on me, which I find most distasteful.

 

You?re quite welcome, my pleasure sir.

 

spike

 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sat Apr 24 03:22:01 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 23:22:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>

Spike, I take it you?ve never seen HBO?s Cat House series about the Bunny Ranch. The announcement that a customer is here and resulting display of available ?talent? to choose from isn?t that awkward.  

Holland has legal brothels too. I haven?t heard the prices are lower there. Demand for sex-that-people-are-willing-to pay-for is pretty inelastic it turns out. 

The sex workers have unions there I think and belong to organizations to represent their interests. The police in Amsterdam have a presence in the Red Light District, and workers are not afraid to call them or push their panic buttons if ripped off or assaulted. 

With regards to prosecuting prostitution, making prostitution illegal, like making use of some drugs illegal, has never come close to stopping consenting adults from engaging in either. 

-Henry

> On Apr 23, 2021, at 5:05 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>  
>  
> From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
> 
> >?We could imagine part timers taking it up, perhaps curious amateurs, lonely singles, that sort of thing.  Such a notion might give a new and literal meaning to the term ?moonlighters.??  spike
>  
>  
>  
> The imagination runs wild.  You go to a house of repute (the ?ill? part goes away if the activity is perfectly legal) and fill out your form explaining what you are looking for, check off the boxes.  The madame (or monsieur (one wonders if the French are pissed off about our use of those terms to mean one who runs prostitution)) asks if you are good with a part-timer who has a day job.  You answer ?Of course, in fact that is highly preferred, for I do not wish to buy these services from someone doing this out of financial necessity.?
>  
> Very well sir, one moment please.  Intercom, ?Beth, a customer awaits.?
>  
> Your boss walks in, ?Hi, I?m Beth, and I?ll be your??
>  
> Major weirdness results, along with hilarity of the kind you might wish to exclude from your annual Christmas letter.
>  
> spike
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 24 04:02:31 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 21:02:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians

 

>?Spike, I take it you?ve never seen HBO?s Cat House series about the Bunny Ranch. The announcement that a customer is here and resulting display of available ?talent? to choose from isn?t that awkward.  

?

>?With regards to prosecuting prostitution, making prostitution illegal, like making use of some drugs illegal, has never come close to stopping consenting adults from engaging in either. 

 

-Henry





 

Hi Henry, ja to all.  I have never seen HBO?s anything: I don?t have cable TV for the past 15 years and didn?t ever get HBO.

 

What I was really thinking about is the Uber-ization of harlotry.  The notion would do to that industry what Uber did to the taxi business.  The no-collar workers would only come to the ?office? when they were feeling in the mood or had nothing better to do.

 

Harlotry certainly appears to be hard on the workers, a very difficult way to make a living.  No pension plan, no long term security, every upstart can soon outrank the seasoned veterans (and do.)

 

So? what if, instead of these suffering sorts, the workers were more well off, financially secure, well rested, they are there by choice, they aren?t necessarily exceedingly good at it but they demonstrate pleasant enthusiasm for their work and their clients.

 

Come to think of it? that whole notion is nearly halfway between a traditional cat house and an internet chat group for singles.  I don?t know this for I am not single and have never hung out there, so perhaps some single hipster can enlighten me.  I speculate that there are more men there than women on those sites.  Am I right?  Well, if so, then there would be an asymmetrical demand for women, so? it is easy to imagine a couple getting to know each other online, then making arrangements to meet.  It looks to me like the men would be willing to sweeten the deal just a bit.

 

It occurred to me more than once during this discussion that I perhaps should avoid posting at length on a topic of which I have no direct knowledge.  It is fun to think about, but I will struggle to speak less and listen more.  I have been happily married since I was only very slightly past childhood and have no reason to think I won?t stay that way until death do us part.  I really don?t know how the heck the singles world works these days.  I didn?t even understand it when I was single myself, but neither did my sweetheart, so we were a great match.  Single hipsters, do instruct us please.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 24 04:45:19 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 21:45:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] where every day is earth day
Message-ID: <000201d738c4$a157a4a0$e406ede0$@rainier66.com>

 

 



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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 13:58:16 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:58:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>

It looks to me like the men would be willing to sweeten the deal just a
bit.  spike



 Men have always paid for companionship - think history:  dowries.  Of
course there are many ways to pay;  regret has always been one:


?Marry, and you will regret it; don?t marry, you will also regret it; marry
or don?t marry, you will regret it either way. Laugh at the world?s
foolishness, you will regret it; weep over it, you will regret that too;
laugh at the world?s foolishness or weep over it, you will regret both.
Believe a woman, you will regret it; believe her not, you will also regret
it? Hang yourself, you will regret it; do not hang yourself, and you will
regret that too; hang yourself or don?t hang yourself, you?ll regret it
either way; whether you hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will
regret both. *This, gentlemen, is the essence of all philosophy.*?  Soren
Kierkegaard

 bill w

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians
>
>
>
> >?Spike, I take it you?ve never seen HBO?s Cat House series about the
> Bunny Ranch. The announcement that a customer is here and resulting display
> of available ?talent? to choose from isn?t that awkward.
>
> ?
>
> >?With regards to prosecuting prostitution, making prostitution illegal,
> like making use of some drugs illegal, has never come close to stopping
> consenting adults from engaging in either.
>
>
>
> -Henry
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Henry, ja to all.  I have never seen HBO?s anything: I don?t have cable
> TV for the past 15 years and didn?t ever get HBO.
>
>
>
> What I was really thinking about is the Uber-ization of harlotry.  The
> notion would do to that industry what Uber did to the taxi business.  The
> no-collar workers would only come to the ?office? when they were feeling in
> the mood or had nothing better to do.
>
>
>
> Harlotry certainly appears to be hard on the workers, a very difficult way
> to make a living.  No pension plan, no long term security, every upstart
> can soon outrank the seasoned veterans (and do.)
>
>
>
> So? what if, instead of these suffering sorts, the workers were more well
> off, financially secure, well rested, they are there by choice, they aren?t
> necessarily exceedingly good at it but they demonstrate pleasant enthusiasm
> for their work and their clients.
>
>
>
> Come to think of it? that whole notion is nearly halfway between a
> traditional cat house and an internet chat group for singles.  I don?t know
> this for I am not single and have never hung out there, so perhaps some
> single hipster can enlighten me.  I speculate that there are more men there
> than women on those sites.  Am I right?  Well, if so, then there would be
> an asymmetrical demand for women, so? it is easy to imagine a couple
> getting to know each other online, then making arrangements to meet.  It
> looks to me like the men would be willing to sweeten the deal just a bit.
>
>
>
> It occurred to me more than once during this discussion that I perhaps
> should avoid posting at length on a topic of which I have no direct
> knowledge.  It is fun to think about, but I will struggle to speak less and
> listen more.  I have been happily married since I was only very slightly
> past childhood and have no reason to think I won?t stay that way until
> death do us part.  I really don?t know how the heck the singles world works
> these days.  I didn?t even understand it when I was single myself, but
> neither did my sweetheart, so we were a great match.  Single hipsters, do
> instruct us please.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 14:23:33 2021
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 10:23:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKVLrPr-bJr4-aVK91-8pvJmHt9R5T6pkbGoAKYkUpVcg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 10:01 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ?Marry, and you will regret it; don?t marry, you will also regret it;
> marry or don?t marry, you will regret it either way. Laugh at the world?s
> foolishness, you will regret it; weep over it, you will regret that too;
> laugh at the world?s foolishness or weep over it, you will regret both.
> Believe a woman, you will regret it; believe her not, you will also regret
> it? Hang yourself, you will regret it; do not hang yourself, and you will
> regret that too; hang yourself or don?t hang yourself, you?ll regret it
> either way; whether you hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will
> regret both. *This, gentlemen, is the essence of all philosophy.*?  Soren
> Kierkegaard
>
>
>
Dude might have been happier with some mood meds ... but then would the
world have the benefit of Kierkegaard's other work?

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 24 15:23:16 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:23:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004101d7391d$c0203510$40609f30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians

 

It looks to me like the men would be willing to sweeten the deal just a bit.  spike

 

 

>? Men have always paid for companionship - think history:  dowries?

No one posted with regard to my speculation that online dating sites would have more men than women.

So I found out the old fashioned way: the internet.  Found this:



 

They claim 30% of Americans have used online dating services, 32% of men have, 28% of women have:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/309454/us-adults-online-dating-site-usage-gender/

>?Of course there are many ways to pay;  regret has always been one:

>??Marry, and you will regret it; don?t marry, you will also regret it; marry or don?t marry? This, gentlemen, is the essence of all philosophy.?  Soren Kierkegaard

 >?bill w

Kierkegaard is too pessimistic by four orders of magnitude.  BillW, you and I are two fortunate fellers for whom the old traditional matrimony business worked out well.  I have zero regrets.  Not just zero, negative regrets.  I would do it all again in a heartbeat, or half that time.  Johnny Grigg is another one fortunate in love.  There are others.  We are legion.  

My favorite philosopher is one for whom traditional marriage worked well.  Hell of a good chap, and I am honored to be in his orbit.  His name is Max More.

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 24 15:38:26 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 08:38:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKVLrPr-bJr4-aVK91-8pvJmHt9R5T6pkbGoAKYkUpVcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKVLrPr-bJr4-aVK91-8pvJmHt9R5T6pkbGoAKYkUpVcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006d01d7391f$dec74650$9c55d2f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians

 

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 10:01 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

?Marry, and you will regret it; don?t marry, you will also regret it; marry or don?t marry, you will regret it either way. ?  Soren Kierkegaard

 

>?Dude might have been happier with some mood meds ... but then would the world have the benefit of Kierkegaard's other work?  Mike

 

Great beauty comes out of suffering.  Consider a couple of modern examples.  Fleetwood Mac did their best work ever (the stunning Rumors album) while both couples were going thru a divorce and terrible heartbreak.  During that time, no two members of the band liked each other, yet they somehow wrote and produced Rumors.  ABBA wrote their best songs during their marital breakups.  Steinbeck?s best work (East of Eden) was written mostly during his worst years, after his first marriage broke up and second one hadn?t started.

 

Happy people do not write profoundly insightful truths.  Happy people write fluffy silliness, such as the kind of posts I regularly? eh? like? ummm?  such as Hallmark movies!  Like Hallmark movies, which are written by happy people, yep, just like that, those things.  Traditional westerns with the two fellers in a gunfight, the winner gets the buxom lass, saves her ranch, that sorta thing.  And Harlequin romances, all written by happy people, makes ya just wanna barf.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 15:42:55 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 10:42:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <004101d7391d$c0203510$40609f30$@rainier66.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004101d7391d$c0203510$40609f30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbajB=Pjjp_Gbgj7cpbmMAoF0sqcr7HpeHKyn2vS1ttiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Typical math guy:  negative regrets = minus a minus is a plus.

Yeah, I got it right, but it took 4 times to get there - LOL!!!   bill w

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 10:26 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians
>
>
>
> It looks to me like the men would be willing to sweeten the deal just a
> bit.  spike
>
>
>
>
>
> >? Men have always paid for companionship - think history:  dowries?
>
> No one posted with regard to my speculation that online dating sites would
> have more men than women.
>
> So I found out the old fashioned way: the internet.  Found this:
>
>
>
> They claim 30% of Americans have used online dating services, 32% of men
> have, 28% of women have:
>
>
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/309454/us-adults-online-dating-site-usage-gender/
>
> >?Of course there are many ways to pay;  regret has always been one:
>
> >??Marry, and you will regret it; don?t marry, you will also regret it;
> marry or don?t marry? *This, gentlemen, is the essence of all philosophy.*?
> Soren Kierkegaard
>
>  >?bill w
>
> Kierkegaard is too pessimistic by four orders of magnitude.  BillW, you
> and I are two fortunate fellers for whom the old traditional matrimony
> business worked out well.  I have zero regrets.  Not just zero, negative
> regrets.  I would do it all again in a heartbeat, or half that time.
> Johnny Grigg is another one fortunate in love.  There are others.  We are
> legion.
>
> My favorite philosopher is one for whom traditional marriage worked well.
> Hell of a good chap, and I am honored to be in his orbit.  His name is Max
> More.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 15:45:25 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 10:45:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <006d01d7391f$dec74650$9c55d2f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKVLrPr-bJr4-aVK91-8pvJmHt9R5T6pkbGoAKYkUpVcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01d7391f$dec74650$9c55d2f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZOOvdd7yBPaU7CCNXLzOi7m721Duk9hJsJXDzk6tRXNw@mail.gmail.com>

Happy people do not write profoundly insightful truths.  spike

Dare I repeat a fact?  Studies show that depressives have the most
realistic view of the world  bill w

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 10:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> >? *On Behalf Of *Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 10:01 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?Marry, and you will regret it; don?t marry, you will also regret it;
> marry or don?t marry, you will regret it either way. ?  Soren Kierkegaard
>
>
>
> >?Dude might have been happier with some mood meds ... but then would the
> world have the benefit of Kierkegaard's other work?  Mike
>
>
>
> Great beauty comes out of suffering.  Consider a couple of modern
> examples.  Fleetwood Mac did their best work ever (the stunning Rumors
> album) while both couples were going thru a divorce and terrible
> heartbreak.  During that time, no two members of the band liked each other,
> yet they somehow wrote and produced Rumors.  ABBA wrote their best songs
> during their marital breakups.  Steinbeck?s best work (East of Eden) was
> written mostly during his worst years, after his first marriage broke up
> and second one hadn?t started.
>
>
>
> Happy people do not write profoundly insightful truths.  Happy people
> write fluffy silliness, such as the kind of posts I regularly? eh? like?
> ummm?  such as Hallmark movies!  Like Hallmark movies, which are written by
> happy people, yep, just like that, those things.  Traditional westerns with
> the two fellers in a gunfight, the winner gets the buxom lass, saves her
> ranch, that sorta thing.  And Harlequin romances, all written by happy
> people, makes ya just wanna barf.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 24 17:41:33 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 10:41:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbajB=Pjjp_Gbgj7cpbmMAoF0sqcr7HpeHKyn2vS1ttiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004101d7391d$c0203510$40609f30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbajB=Pjjp_Gbgj7cpbmMAoF0sqcr7HpeHKyn2vS1ttiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a401d73931$11938420$34ba8c60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians

 

Typical math guy:  negative regrets = minus a minus is a plus.

 

Yeah, I got it right, but it took 4 times to get there - LOL!!!   bill w

 

 

 

A puzzling comment by the Billmeister.  Where were you the first three times?  The negative of anything is the opposite of that thing.  Negative money is debt.  Negative regrets are gratitude and relief.  A negative orgasm is? oh that hurts just to imagine it.

 

spike  

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 24 17:45:35 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 10:45:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZOOvdd7yBPaU7CCNXLzOi7m721Duk9hJsJXDzk6tRXNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKVLrPr-bJr4-aVK91-8pvJmHt9R5T6pkbGoAKYkUpVcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01d7391f$dec74650$9c55d2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZOOvdd7yBPaU7CCNXLzOi7m721Duk9hJsJXDzk6tRXNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01d73931$a1b8c2e0$e52a48a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

.> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians

 


>>?Happy people do not write profoundly insightful truths.  spike

 

>?Dare I repeat a fact?  Studies show that depressives have the most realistic view of the world  bill w

 

 

Ja, but how depressing is that view.  Happy people are dreamers and inventors.  Realists view things as they are and ask why.  Dreamers imagine things that never were and ask why not.

 

I choose to be a dreamer, even if it means I often view the world as it isn?t, then work to make it match my dream.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 24 18:34:05 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 13:34:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <00ab01d73931$a1b8c2e0$e52a48a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKVLrPr-bJr4-aVK91-8pvJmHt9R5T6pkbGoAKYkUpVcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01d7391f$dec74650$9c55d2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZOOvdd7yBPaU7CCNXLzOi7m721Duk9hJsJXDzk6tRXNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ab01d73931$a1b8c2e0$e52a48a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZzcDFBK4UBifQfq6iftJLQibny5QUPDaeACnssygMm8g@mail.gmail.com>

I think you could hardly be a transhumanist if you didn't believe this
silly race of ours could be improved.  Quote from Robert Kennedy, isn't
it?  Yeah, I think a good bit of my love for scifi is dreaming of the
future. Trouble is, mostly people are just the same as they are now.  First
marriage:  puppy love and lust.  Three kids and divorce.  Second, to a
student (that I married again ten years ago).  Third (the student descended
into alcoholism and didn't want to come out and I did), to a financial
planner who had to wear the pants and eventually saw that she could not
mold me into what she wanted-  she asked for the divorce.

Fourth to the student again - Roz.  Joined me in not drinking and smoking.

Quite a run, interspersed with eHarmony and Match.com - never did get over
the 10 mark of women bedded - none of whom were any better than any other
one.  I just could not get Roz out of my mind, so we did it again.   You
would do it all over again - not me!

Forgiveness has to play some role in regrets.   I am, of course, biased,
but I look back and every decision I made seems to me now to be the right
one at the time.  And if any were wrong I have forgiven myself.  So - no
regrets to ruin my older age.   bill w

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 12:52 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *.*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians
>
>
>
>
> >>?Happy people do not write profoundly insightful truths.  spike
>
>
>
> >?Dare I repeat a fact?  Studies show that depressives have the most
> realistic view of the world  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja, but how depressing is that view.  Happy people are dreamers and
> inventors.  Realists view things as they are and ask why.  Dreamers imagine
> things that never were and ask why not.
>
>
>
> I choose to be a dreamer, even if it means I often view the world as it
> isn?t, then work to make it match my dream.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 24 19:21:39 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 12:21:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZzcDFBK4UBifQfq6iftJLQibny5QUPDaeACnssygMm8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKVLrPr-bJr4-aVK91-8pvJmHt9R5T6pkbGoAKYkUpVcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01d7391f$dec74650$9c55d2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZOOvdd7yBPaU7CCNXLzOi7m721Duk9hJsJXDzk6tRXNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ab01d73931$a1b8c2e0$e52a48a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZzcDFBK4UBifQfq6iftJLQibny5QUPDaeACnssygMm8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ca01d7393f$0da15a00$28e40e00$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians

 

 

 

>?First marriage:  puppy love and lust? BillW

 

 

 

Ja same here.  Still on that one, 37 years later, better than ever.

 

Observers comment that we relate to each other like teenagers, using 70s teenisms, such as whenever we disagree on something provable, we extend a hand, which means ?betcha a million bucks.?  Of course it is a dollar a year for a million years, but hey.

 

There?s a song which had particular meaning to me during our nearly 3 year courtship, for when we married, she had just turned 21:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7gPHNUPm3g

 

All of this is causing me to ponder something that has become the fashion in our society today, particularly in high schools: downplaying Valentine?s Day and replacing it with ?Singles-Awareness Day.?   Those with sweethearts are encouraged to be aware of their privilege with such a blessing, and to be more empathetic to those with no mates or prospects.

 

Well, OK then.  I know I am lucky.  I am filled with a sense of gratitude for that, as well as all the other things that we privileged moderns have (all of us ( everyone living today (never mind trying to break us down into groups, some luckier than others (for that exercise causes those who should feel gratitude to feel resentment.))))  

 

Gratitude is a powerful emotion.  Feel it, live it, for it is negative regret, negative resentment, negative envy.  Even if unequally so, we are all very lucky.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Apr 24 19:50:37 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 12:50:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bd19910e-f3bf-5755-c58f-3dc06cc58357@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-24 06:58, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> Men have always paid for companionship - think history:? dowries.

A dowry is paid by the bride's family.  (In what fiction did I find the 
curse, "May you have many ugly daughters!" ?)  In India, anecdote says 
inadequate dowry is a common motive for uxoricide.

But some cultures do have payments the other way.
An interesting detail in (iirc) Graeber's book ?Debt?: some cultures 
have money-like tokens that are used *only* for bride-price or wergild 
or the like, never for everyday commerce, because human life cannot be 
measured in ordinary goods.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From bronto at pobox.com  Sat Apr 24 20:30:30 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 13:30:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <006d01d7391f$dec74650$9c55d2f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKVLrPr-bJr4-aVK91-8pvJmHt9R5T6pkbGoAKYkUpVcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01d7391f$dec74650$9c55d2f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <13e09107-a69e-4555-4c4d-3b248d9aaf0a@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-24 08:38, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> ABBA wrote their best songs during their marital breakups.

Hmm .. when did they start to crack?  I don't know much about their 
history, though obviously their last album ?The Visitors? is the darkest.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 24 21:08:04 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 14:08:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <13e09107-a69e-4555-4c4d-3b248d9aaf0a@pobox.com>
References: <006701d73884$54a88dd0$fdf9a970$@rainier66.com>
 <939B4103-CB50-4950-BD63-41FF7AE6B0B6@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001f01d738be$a6d46cc0$f47d4640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa9ndkij9iYO78ZC0dw=WWdEfN2EKY5jxPf3Poey8=QbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKVLrPr-bJr4-aVK91-8pvJmHt9R5T6pkbGoAKYkUpVcg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <13e09107-a69e-4555-4c4d-3b248d9aaf0a@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <002b01d7394d$eb3f53e0$c1bdfba0$@rainier66.com>

...> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians

On 2021-4-24 08:38, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>>... ABBA wrote their best songs during their marital breakups.

>...Hmm .. when did they start to crack?  I don't know much about their history, though obviously their last album ?The Visitors? is the darkest.

--
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org


_______________________________________________ 


Hi Anton, they were breaking up right when the band was at its peak, in about 1980 when the Super Trouper album was released.  There is a song on there which reminded me of a notion I have long held that key signatures have personality of their own.  The haunting rock ballot Winner Takes It All is in F sharp, which is one of the oddball keys, but somehow the Agnetha really made it work.  Most of us have been in a situation it sounds like they are about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyIOl-s7JTU

She managed to do this song in concert with her ex standing right next to her.  That's courage.  I want to reach out and hug that lady.

After that, here's a little politically incorrect Swedish humor, the last ABBA video ever made, in 2004.  I don't know how the heck they did this.  It was from the days when people were still allowed to have a sense of humor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L6T6Yj5u4k

spike



From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Apr 24 21:40:22 2021
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 14:40:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Grand Arc of Humanity
Message-ID: <20210424144022.Horde.oNS7oJgTRZfj9UCyBVRNLRk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki:

> Did you ever wonder what was the specific, unique development in the
> history of the world that set humans on our path, separate from animals and
> out to reach the stars?

I agree that the Grand Arc of humanity does seem to an improbably long  
queue of positive feedback loops. These loops became links in a causal  
chain that led to humanity's current ascendancy. Exactly which link  
set us apart from other animals is not easy to discern.

> I don't mean all the prerequisites for humans to exist. There is a
> combination of string landscape properties that defines the specific
> physics that allowed inflation, hydrogen and gravity, which allowed for the
> formation of stars that are necessary for humans, but stars are also needed
> for chloroplasts and rhodobacteria, so this is not specific enough. Nuclei
> and mitochondria were needed to create larger creatures, such as humans but
> nuclei and mitochondria also created snails and trees, so again not
> specific enough. Trees populated by snails and the like created an unusual
> ecological niche, that of a tree-dwelling fast moving omnivorous creature
> with stereoscopic vision and arms adapted to the grasping of sticks, and we
> needed our vision and arms to become what we are but then lemurs, gibbons
> and hundreds of other primate species have been around for 55 million
> years, so these adaptations are not sufficient for an intelligent species
> to appear, or else ruins of cities older than the Himalayas would be
> littering the planet. The ability to use tools such as sticks and to have
> rudimentary language also isn't sufficiently specific, since apes have been
> doing these things for millions of years and were getting nowhere fast.
>
> But there came a day when an Australopithecine made a stick that was longer
> and sharper than what the chimpanzee uses to dig for tubers and to pick
> termite mounds. That stick could hurt if used by a creature with
> stereoscopic vision and strong, grasping hands. That stick could be thrust
> at a predator, or prey.

If that's the case, then these Senegalese chimps have caught onto the  
"longer sharper stick" idea. They fashion spears to hunt bush-babies  
that hide in tree hollows. Curiously these spears are more often used  
by females who cannot run down their prey the way the males do due to  
being encumbered by clinging offspring. Of course, if your hypothesis  
is correct, this raises the question of why there are no chimp cities?

https://phys.org/news/2015-04-chimps-senegal-fashion-spears.html#:~:text=To%20date%2C%20the%20chimps%20are,not%20count%20that%20as%20hunting.

> An Australopithecine on the ground + leopard means
> a snack for the leopard but an Australopithecine + sharp stick + leopard
> means a very sore leopard, possibly even a big dinner for the ape. The
> sharp stick completely changed the equation. It propelled the
> Australopithecine from the rank of lowly scavenger and often easy prey to
> the level of a moderately bad-ass all-around brawler, not hardcore enough
> to take on lions but just too tough to kill under most circumstances. It
> changed the ape from an occasional hunter to a frequent hunter, giving
> access to the meat and the marrow and the energy to feed a bigger brain
> without forcing an increase in size.

But as the Senegalese chimps demonstrate, a sharp stick, while  
necessary, is not sufficient. Australopithecus was bipedal, which  
meant it could wield the sharp stick with both hands and therefore  
significant force and even the momentum of a running start. The sharp  
stick is just a sharp stick without the improbably long queue of  
happenstance that that allowed the utility of the sharp stick to be  
maximized. The following video demonstrates my point that  
knuckle-walkers cannot effectively weaponize sticks against predators:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKpZUsRJWBg

> And most importantly, this is the
> first time in the history of the Earth that the survival and thriving of a
> social, large, terrestrial animal with stereoscopic vision and manipulatory
> appendages became dependent on the creation of a tool - a tool not merely
> aiding survival, like a stone wielded by a monkey to crush nuts, but
> actually indispensable for survival due to the incredible boost in
> abilities it afforded the user. The sharp stick was just such an amazing
> quantum leap that once the ape learned to use it, the ape couldn't live
> without it and it became a hominid.

I think what set the Australopithecine apart was not just tool-use but  
metatool-use. There really isn't a good word for the concept yet but I  
suppose metatechnology or metacrafting might work. Basically it just  
means the fashioning of tools that can then be used to create other  
tools that can then be used to create yet other tools and so forth.  
For example, while several species (both primates and birds) have been  
observed using rocks as hammers to smash open food items. But using  
rocks as hammers to knapp pieces of flint into blades that can then be  
used to sharpen sticks that can then be used to hunt prey . . . that  
seems like an exclusively hominid trick thus far. After all, what good  
using a sharp stick to bring down big prey if you are having to  
butcher it with your teeth and fingernails? They have found fossilized  
animal bones dated to 3.3 million years ago, the time of  
Australopithecus, that show cracks, groves, and abrasions consistent  
with the use of stone tools.

> So here is my opinion about when the Grand Arc of Humanity started - with a
> big, sharp stick. Everything before was generic, prerequisites like size,
> stereoscopic vision, manipulatory arms, sociality, all necessary but
> insufficient to create something as unique as us. The sharp stick was the
> keystone to the portal to the technological civilization that opened before
> the Australopithecine - all of what followed flowed then logically from
> that point. The need to make and use a tool prevented us from becoming
> generic predators that survive by the tooth and claw. The sharp stick is an
> external adaptation - not of the body but dependent on the learning mind
> for its usefulness. The ability to use the sharp stick channeled our
> evolution towards the use of more and more tools, with ever less need for
> genetic adaptation and more cultural transmission. Apes can use fire and
> love cooked foods but they wouldn't benefit from fire much even if they
> could maintain it.

How much of that is related to environmental selective effects? If one  
relocated enough chimps to a colder temperate climate, say Europe,  
then after several generations of selection, might not the survivors  
be more predatory and adept at fire use?

> Hominids with sharp sticks can feed the fire with meat
> and can fend off predators while on the ground, which is why we lost the
> adaptations to swing from tree branches and improved our ground mobility.
> The sharp stick can also be thrown - it became the spear, and that moved
> the hominid to the rank of serious badass, the kind you want to stay away
> from. Access to fire gave us cooked food which reduced the amount of time
> needed to chew from 6 hours a day to 30 minutes and it freed 25% of our
> metabolic energy from digestion to thinking, so our brains grew because we
> had the time and the energy to actually use them. Bigger brains meant more
> ability to invent cultural adaptations, which meant stronger pressure for
> bigger brains and also dramatically faster adaptability to changed
> circumstances, which meant spreading throughout the world of different
> climates and different food sources. Finally, the sharp stick meant we
> could kill each other from ambush, safely, leading to the
> self-domestication of us, H. sapiens, and extinction of the other Homo's.

While I don't think it was a sharp stick alone that carried the day  
for humanity, I think you are not far off. I instead think it was the  
development of metatechnology embodied as stone tools that could be  
used to reliably cut and sharpen wooden sticks, butcher dead animals,  
and in the case of flint, also start fires that was the hominid killer  
app. It was likely not an accident that the stone handaxe became a  
dominant feature of hominid life for over 1.5 million years.

> A bunch of positive feedback loops started with this first technology and
> in geologically no time at all propelled us to the moon and beyond.
>
> The Grand Arc of Humanity is now close to its end. H.sapiens will soon
> disappear, hopefully by uploading, maybe in other ways. But it all started
> with a sharp stick held by a hungry ape.
>
> Rafal

Thanks for a thought provoking post, Rafal. If you beefed it up with  
some references and alternative lines of evidence and reasoning, then  
you might have the makings of popular science book on your hands. You  
write well enough that you should at least consider the possibility.

Stuart LaForge




From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 03:42:46 2021
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 23:42:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 8:06 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Seen any hysterical paralysis or blindness, Rafal?  Have you learned to
> tell the lies by their body language or voice?
>
>
### I see hysterical paralysis all the time (now it's politically incorrect
to use the gender-related term "hysteria", have to say "conversion"). It's
often easy pick up some telltale signs on examination, most fakers are dumb
and they make a lot of mistakes. And then there is the magnet of truth, the
MRI machine that shows the absence of stroke and other lesions. Sometimes
there is a question of whether the patient has a migraine aura, which is a
stroke mimic but with attentive examination it is often possible to tell
aura from faking.

I don't see psychogenic blindness often. There are a couple neat tricks to
tell it apart from organic blindness, like testing for optokinetic
nystagmus and visual threat. With the most persistent fakers you can do
visual evoked potentials on EEG.
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Apr 25 09:13:40 2021
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 10:13:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <mailman.191.1619279002.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.191.1619279002.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <721832f5-0a36-5293-4e67-26fb10b18a74@zaiboc.net>

On 24/04/2021 16:43, Spike wrote:
> Great beauty comes out of suffering

Oooh, I think that's a dangerous thing to say, Spike!

And an even more dangerous thing to quote out of context (like I'm doing).

Now I'm off to create some beauty with a crate full of kittens and a car 
battery (just kidding!!)

-- 
Ben Zaiboc


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr 25 13:05:40 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 06:05:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <721832f5-0a36-5293-4e67-26fb10b18a74@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.191.1619279002.658.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <721832f5-0a36-5293-4e67-26fb10b18a74@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <000f01d739d3$b18fe840$14afb8c0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
...> On Behalf Of Ben via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news for libertarians

On 24/04/2021 16:43, Spike wrote:


>>... Great beauty comes out of suffering

>...Oooh, I think that's a dangerous thing to say, Spike!

>...And an even more dangerous thing to quote out of context (like I'm
doing).

>...Now I'm off to create some beauty with a crate full of kittens and a car
battery (just kidding!!)

--
Ben Zaiboc

_______________________________________________


Wow Ben you figured out how to get kittens to write poetry?

spike




From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr 25 23:48:32 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:48:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
Message-ID: <000401d73a2d$80a252e0$81e6f8a0$@rainier66.com>

 

I am suffering from a severe case of confirmation bias.

 

I fear for poor Dr. Smigrodzki, who is surely feeling confirmation bias even
more than I am:

 

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/17/e2018995118#disp-formula-6

 

Unless I am reading this wrong (do educate me please) MIT concluded pretty
much the same thing I did over a year ago: lockdowns don't help because
people stay indoors where viruses spread best.  Outdoor masking is useless.
Indoors, social distancing is practically useless: viruses hang in the air a
long time indoors.

 

All this explains why the Sturgis bike rally was an apparent sub-spreader,
the bike rallies in Florida and the spring break parties didn't show up in
the noise: those events were mostly outdoors where viruses don't spread
easily.

 

It explains why the lockdowns don't seem to be helping.  It explains why
outdoor mask wearing is pointless.  It is all about air circulation.  It
took us over a year to figure out what was right in front of us the whole
time.

 

spike  

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From tech101 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 02:21:50 2021
From: tech101 at gmail.com (Adam A. Ford)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:21:50 +1000
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
In-Reply-To: <000401d73a2d$80a252e0$81e6f8a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <000401d73a2d$80a252e0$81e6f8a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CABG8Bmzsw47mXkZMiK7UTA_QyGmR9ReCr2PT5nt6N2KBjsd9GA@mail.gmail.com>

Lockdowns seemed to have helped in Melbourne Australia.

Adam

On Mon, 26 Apr 2021, 09:49 spike jones via extropy-chat, <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I am suffering from a severe case of confirmation bias.
>
>
>
> I fear for poor Dr. Smigrodzki, who is surely feeling confirmation bias
> even more than I am:
>
>
>
> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/17/e2018995118#disp-formula-6
>
>
>
> Unless I am reading this wrong (do educate me please) MIT concluded pretty
> much the same thing I did over a year ago: lockdowns don?t help because
> people stay indoors where viruses spread best.  Outdoor masking is
> useless.  Indoors, social distancing is practically useless: viruses hang
> in the air a long time indoors.
>
>
>
> All this explains why the Sturgis bike rally was an apparent sub-spreader,
> the bike rallies in Florida and the spring break parties didn?t show up in
> the noise: those events were mostly outdoors where viruses don?t spread
> easily.
>
>
>
> It explains why the lockdowns don?t seem to be helping.  It explains why
> outdoor mask wearing is pointless.  It is all about air circulation.  It
> took us over a year to figure out what was right in front of us the whole
> time.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 03:44:19 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:44:19 +1000
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
In-Reply-To: <CABG8Bmzsw47mXkZMiK7UTA_QyGmR9ReCr2PT5nt6N2KBjsd9GA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000401d73a2d$80a252e0$81e6f8a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABG8Bmzsw47mXkZMiK7UTA_QyGmR9ReCr2PT5nt6N2KBjsd9GA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypUeR0Bx+EEyzrbrg4UrNPxRafWGsu9NFLY=imTqStesWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 at 12:24, Adam A. Ford via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Lockdowns seemed to have helped in Melbourne Australia.
>

There was a long and strict lockdown in Melbourne last year lasting about
four months. At the peak, there were over 700 cases per day. The lockdown
ended when the cases per day was down to zero. Since then in Australia
states and New Zealand there have been several much shorter lockdowns
lasting less than a week if there have been been any community acquired
cases: between 1 and 10. This seems to have worked.

Adam
>
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021, 09:49 spike jones via extropy-chat, <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I am suffering from a severe case of confirmation bias.
>>
>>
>>
>> I fear for poor Dr. Smigrodzki, who is surely feeling confirmation bias
>> even more than I am:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/17/e2018995118#disp-formula-6
>>
>>
>>
>> Unless I am reading this wrong (do educate me please) MIT concluded
>> pretty much the same thing I did over a year ago: lockdowns don?t help
>> because people stay indoors where viruses spread best.  Outdoor masking is
>> useless.  Indoors, social distancing is practically useless: viruses hang
>> in the air a long time indoors.
>>
>>
>>
>> All this explains why the Sturgis bike rally was an apparent
>> sub-spreader, the bike rallies in Florida and the spring break parties
>> didn?t show up in the noise: those events were mostly outdoors where
>> viruses don?t spread easily.
>>
>>
>>
>> It explains why the lockdowns don?t seem to be helping.  It explains why
>> outdoor mask wearing is pointless.  It is all about air circulation.  It
>> took us over a year to figure out what was right in front of us the whole
>> time.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Apr 26 17:20:59 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:20:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUeR0Bx+EEyzrbrg4UrNPxRafWGsu9NFLY=imTqStesWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=2ypUeR0Bx+EEyzrbrg4UrNPxRafWGsu9NFLY=imTqStesWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F227E323-F85B-49F0-8AF0-C42C8C020352@alumni.virginia.edu>

Lockdowns try to limit contagion by limiting contact in many cases to one?s household or pod. If people continue to have contact with people other than that, they are not really locked down. Have we really implemented lock downs as designed? It?s like enforcing mask mandates which we?ve discussed before. Americans appear to be particularly challenged with respect to following public health guidance. 

A NY Times piece today suggests lifting lockdown in India prematurely led to their current surge. My guess is that there are so many variables at play, that it will be hard to discern causality in India?s case or anywhere else. 

?The most plausible explanations ? the amount of time people spend outdoors in India, the low levels of obesity, the population?s relative youth and the possibility that previous viruses had created some natural immunity ? all seemed to suggest that India was not simply on a delayed Covid timetable. The country, like many of its neighbors, seemed to be escaping the worst of the pandemic.

Scientific research suggesting that about half of adults in major cities had already been infected was consistent with this notion. ?It led to the assumption that India had been cheaply, naturally vaccinated,? Dr. Prabhat Jha, an epidemiologist at the University of Toronto, told me.

Government officials acted particularly confident. As Ramanan Laxminarayan, a Princeton University epidemiologist based in New Delhi, told Nature, ?There was a public narrative that India had conquered Covid-19.? Some scientists who thought that a new Covid wave remained possible were afraid to contradict the message coming from Prime Minister Narendra Modi?s government. Modi has a record of stifling dissent, and Freedom House, the democracy watchdog group, recently said India had become only a ?partly free? country that was moving ?toward authoritarianism.?

Confident they had beaten Covid, government officials relaxed restrictions on virtually all activities, including weddings, political rallies and religious gatherings. The northern town of Haridwar held one of the world?s biggest gatherings this month, with millions of people celebrating the Hindu festival Kumbh Mela.?

-Henry 

> On Apr 25, 2021, at 11:44 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> ?
> 
> 
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 at 12:24, Adam A. Ford via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Lockdowns seemed to have helped in Melbourne Australia. 
> 
> There was a long and strict lockdown in Melbourne last year lasting about four months. At the peak, there were over 700 cases per day. The lockdown ended when the cases per day was down to zero. Since then in Australia states and New Zealand there have been several much shorter lockdowns lasting less than a week if there have been been any community acquired cases: between 1 and 10. This seems to have worked.
> 
>> Adam
>> 
>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021, 09:49 spike jones via extropy-chat, <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I am suffering from a severe case of confirmation bias.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I fear for poor Dr. Smigrodzki, who is surely feeling confirmation bias even more than I am:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> https://www.pnas.org/content/118/17/e2018995118#disp-formula-6
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Unless I am reading this wrong (do educate me please) MIT concluded pretty much the same thing I did over a year ago: lockdowns don?t help because people stay indoors where viruses spread best.  Outdoor masking is useless.  Indoors, social distancing is practically useless: viruses hang in the air a long time indoors.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> All this explains why the Sturgis bike rally was an apparent sub-spreader, the bike rallies in Florida and the spring break parties didn?t show up in the noise: those events were mostly outdoors where viruses don?t spread easily.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> It explains why the lockdowns don?t seem to be helping.  It explains why outdoor mask wearing is pointless.  It is all about air circulation.  It took us over a year to figure out what was right in front of us the whole time.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> spike 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> -- 
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr 26 17:44:52 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 10:44:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
In-Reply-To: <F227E323-F85B-49F0-8AF0-C42C8C020352@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <CAH=2ypUeR0Bx+EEyzrbrg4UrNPxRafWGsu9NFLY=imTqStesWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F227E323-F85B-49F0-8AF0-C42C8C020352@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <001b01d73ac3$dccd3a30$9667ae90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] mit covid study

 

>? It?s like enforcing mask mandates which we?ve discussed before?

 

Hi Henry, ja.  There were never any mask laws passed anywhere.  Only laws can be enforced.  Mandates are not law.  They are suggestions.  There is no known mechanism for enforcing suggestions.  If those existed a year ago, they don?t now.  

 

Question please: 57 jurisdictions in the US alone, and yet not one legislature in any of those places passed either a mask law or a lockdown law, not one.  Why?

 

>? Americans appear to be particularly challenged with respect to following public health guidance?

 

Now more than ever.  We were reluctant to give governors temporary authority before, but went along with it.  These governments collectively blew it.  The government authorities don?t know what they are doing any more than individuals do.  Now we don?t want their silly mandates, which don?t really help.  We were skeptical before, but now we are downright cynical.

 

Take note of this comment from the article:

 

Some scientists who thought that a new Covid wave remained possible were afraid to contradict the message coming from Prime Minister Narendra Modi?s government. Modi has a record of stifling dissent?

 

Ja!  Governments don?t know what they are doing.  Staying healthy is about personal hygiene, common sense, best health practices, not government mandates.

 

>?A NY Times piece today suggests lifting lockdown in India prematurely led to their current surge. My guess is that there are so many variables at play, that it will be hard to discern causality in India?s case or anywhere else?

 

That is one school of thought.  It seems perfectly clear to me that the MIT study and others have found that spread of virus (any virus) is about the amount of time spent indoors with infected people.  Lockdowns may increase that.

 

The article mentions this.  A better suggestion (or mandate if you prefer that term) is to spend as much time outdoors as possible, certainly if any member of your household is infected.  If you live in any multistory apartment or condo, sheesh, take the stairs.  It should be perfectly clear by now that if any infected person gets on an elevator, everyone on there has been exposed, good luck.

 

spike

 

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From dsunley at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 20:38:28 2021
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:38:28 -0600
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
In-Reply-To: <001b01d73ac3$dccd3a30$9667ae90$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAH=2ypUeR0Bx+EEyzrbrg4UrNPxRafWGsu9NFLY=imTqStesWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F227E323-F85B-49F0-8AF0-C42C8C020352@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <001b01d73ac3$dccd3a30$9667ae90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQnwgDHDZe2SbKJVzM3C7VA8JtXftvvLYEThiB6JewMeg@mail.gmail.com>

But, but, muh hip, walkable cities! Where I cram myself in like sardines
with the other /cool/ people, an elevator ride and 3 minutes walk from 6
different vendors of coffee and avocado toast!

Not like those trash people who live out in the suburbs with
their disgusting children, or worse, the republican rednecks who make all
of my food!

On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 11:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] mit covid study
>
>
>
> >? It?s like enforcing mask mandates which we?ve discussed before?
>
>
>
> Hi Henry, ja.  There were never any mask laws passed anywhere.  Only laws
> can be enforced.  Mandates are not law.  They are suggestions.  There is no
> known mechanism for enforcing suggestions.  If those existed a year ago,
> they don?t now.
>
>
>
> Question please: 57 jurisdictions in the US alone, and yet not one
> legislature in any of those places passed either a mask law or a lockdown
> law, not one.  Why?
>
>
>
> >? Americans appear to be particularly challenged with respect to
> following public health guidance?
>
>
>
> Now more than ever.  We were reluctant to give governors temporary
> authority before, but went along with it.  These governments collectively
> blew it.  The government authorities don?t know what they are doing any
> more than individuals do.  Now we don?t want their silly mandates, which
> don?t really help.  We were skeptical before, but now we are downright
> cynical.
>
>
>
> Take note of this comment from the article:
>
>
>
> Some scientists who thought that a new Covid wave remained possible were
> afraid to contradict the message coming from Prime Minister Narendra Modi?s
> government. Modi has a record of stifling dissent?
>
>
>
> Ja!  Governments don?t know what they are doing.  Staying healthy is about
> personal hygiene, common sense, best health practices, not government
> mandates.
>
>
>
> >?A NY Times piece today suggests lifting lockdown in India prematurely
> led to their current surge. My guess is that there are so many variables at
> play, that it will be hard to discern causality in India?s case or anywhere
> else?
>
>
>
> That is one school of thought.  It seems perfectly clear to me that the
> MIT study and others have found that spread of virus (any virus) is about
> the amount of time spent indoors with infected people.  Lockdowns may
> increase that.
>
>
>
> The article mentions this.  A better suggestion (or mandate if you prefer
> that term) is to spend as much time outdoors as possible, certainly if any
> member of your household is infected.  If you live in any multistory
> apartment or condo, sheesh, take the stairs.  It should be perfectly clear
> by now that if any infected person gets on an elevator, everyone on there
> has been exposed, good luck.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 20:40:50 2021
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:40:50 -0600
Subject: [ExI] chomsky
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZBPQHOvE_PP=hSJqUwisbz==jyo39Ew15S04h4EcAX6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZBPQHOvE_PP=hSJqUwisbz==jyo39Ew15S04h4EcAX6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkTmWCbd6AUP==pS5Uhkpj=CzrctzxG9WnXs_PqEs69b8A@mail.gmail.com>

I think "Manufacturing Consent" is his seminal political text.

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 7:45 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I read where his favorite philosopher is Hume - mine too.  So I think I'd
> like to start with a basic political book of his that does not include his
> language theories
>
> Suggestions?    bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Apr 26 20:48:06 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:48:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
In-Reply-To: <001b01d73ac3$dccd3a30$9667ae90$@rainier66.com>
References: <001b01d73ac3$dccd3a30$9667ae90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <75F23F98-6F1A-49BE-82D7-132D043A735D@alumni.virginia.edu>


> On Apr 26, 2021, at 1:45 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> spend as much time outdoors as possible,

I do think there is value in this. And I have seen public health officials advocate for this lately. For example, it was just announced today here in MA, one of the states still mandating face coverings outdoors, that high school graduations will happen this year in the traditional form but all outdoors. The CDC is expected to announce new mask guidance tomorrow btw. 

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr 26 20:59:43 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:59:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
In-Reply-To: <75F23F98-6F1A-49BE-82D7-132D043A735D@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <001b01d73ac3$dccd3a30$9667ae90$@rainier66.com>
 <75F23F98-6F1A-49BE-82D7-132D043A735D@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <002e01d73adf$158d51a0$40a7f4e0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] mit covid study


> On Apr 26, 2021, at 1:45 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>>... spend as much time outdoors as possible,

>...I do think there is value in this. And I have seen public health
officials advocate for this lately. For example, it was just announced today
here in MA, one of the states still mandating face coverings outdoors, that
high school graduations will happen this year in the traditional form but
all outdoors. The CDC is expected to announce new mask guidance tomorrow
btw...



Thanks for that Henry.

That outdoor mask mandate business slays me.  Estimate pls what percentage
of proles complied with that?  I wasn't aware until a few days ago that
California had an outdoor mask mandate.  I never wore one, never had anyone
comment at the time.

Anyone with any common sense realized from the start that outdoor masks are
pointless.  I saw plenty of people driving alone in a car with a mask.  That
is just silly and possibly dangerous, if the mask traps too much exhaled
CO2.  I saw plenty of people exercising alone outdoors with a mask.  After a
while I began to suspect it was a symbol of alliance rather than an actual
device for stopping contagion.

spike 


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 21:53:37 2021
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:53:37 +1000
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
In-Reply-To: <002e01d73adf$158d51a0$40a7f4e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <001b01d73ac3$dccd3a30$9667ae90$@rainier66.com>
 <75F23F98-6F1A-49BE-82D7-132D043A735D@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <002e01d73adf$158d51a0$40a7f4e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypXt1EcWYk+Z049s_v_Z-hLeLX+ErcS+BuVwJd8HAtTDeQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 07:02, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] mit covid study
>
>
> > On Apr 26, 2021, at 1:45 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >>... spend as much time outdoors as possible,
>
> >...I do think there is value in this. And I have seen public health
> officials advocate for this lately. For example, it was just announced
> today
> here in MA, one of the states still mandating face coverings outdoors, that
> high school graduations will happen this year in the traditional form but
> all outdoors. The CDC is expected to announce new mask guidance tomorrow
> btw...
>
>
>
> Thanks for that Henry.
>
> That outdoor mask mandate business slays me.  Estimate pls what percentage
> of proles complied with that?  I wasn't aware until a few days ago that
> California had an outdoor mask mandate.  I never wore one, never had anyone
> comment at the time.
>
> Anyone with any common sense realized from the start that outdoor masks are
> pointless.  I saw plenty of people driving alone in a car with a mask.
> That
> is just silly and possibly dangerous, if the mask traps too much exhaled
> CO2.  I saw plenty of people exercising alone outdoors with a mask.  After
> a
> while I began to suspect it was a symbol of alliance rather than an actual
> device for stopping contagion.


There?s probably no point in wearing a mask outdoors if you are on your
own, but there probably is a point if you are within centimetres of other
people and there are thousands of cases a day in your city. It?s harder to
make a rule that people will follow if you make mask wearing contingent on
proximity to others. In fact, it?s hard to make a rule about proximity to
others, since multiple times a day people may pass close to each other
anyway, even if they are trying to avoid doing so. So enforcing mask
wearing indoors if case numbers are low, indoors and outdoors if case
numbers are high, is a practical way to address this, even if the evidence
is not completely convincing, since masks are relatively cheap and benign.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Apr 26 22:10:33 2021
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:10:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mit covid study
In-Reply-To: <002e01d73adf$158d51a0$40a7f4e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002e01d73adf$158d51a0$40a7f4e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <AA6E6202-C622-4045-8073-1FEA64BC09D0@alumni.virginia.edu>

Re. % compliance...

I?m in admittedly the most liberal city, Northampton, in probably the most liberal state. My community is in a bubble that masks the rest of reality pretty well. This is called the ?Five College Area?, with high concentrations of students and liberal arts college professors. We have to remind ourselves of this bubble before we send our children into the real world lest they be shocked at the intolerance and bigotry out there. I?m only half-joking. Our superintendent of schools 4 years ago sent a letter home to parents when our former President won the election announcing there would be extra counselors available to students at school after learning students were expressing feelings ?that they were in need of support or concerned about friends? as a result of the outcome of the election. 

But even outside Northampton, in the greater Springfield metropolitan area, public wearing of masks is easily 99-100%. The businesses, public areas like parks, and public transportation all have signs, ?Masks required? or ?No mask, no service.? And they mean it. The masking mandate is by the governor?s Executive Order which functions much the same as federal Executive Orders within the Commonwealth. There is a fine for non-compliance but I haven?t heard of anyone being fined. I know someone local who is antimask, and he keeps me appraised of the ongoing ?discrimination? against him by grocery stores, the barber, buses, and everywhere else you can imagine. They call the cops on him, and the cops shoo him away under threat of arrest for trespassing and maybe disorderly conduct if he doesn?t calm down. Many business have masks at their entrances next to hand sanitizer in case anyone forgot a mask. I?ve really only seen homeless people not in masks outside. People remove them if no one is around but then put them back on if someone is approaching. People exercise in them etc. 

So that?s how we?re living in Western Mass. I?d venture to guess it?s the same in Boston and Central Mass. 

> On Apr 26, 2021, at 5:01 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu> 
> Subject: Re: [ExI] mit covid study
> 
> 
>>> On Apr 26, 2021, at 1:45 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> ... spend as much time outdoors as possible,
> 
>> ...I do think there is value in this. And I have seen public health
> officials advocate for this lately. For example, it was just announced today
> here in MA, one of the states still mandating face coverings outdoors, that
> high school graduations will happen this year in the traditional form but
> all outdoors. The CDC is expected to announce new mask guidance tomorrow
> btw...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that Henry.
> 
> That outdoor mask mandate business slays me.  Estimate pls what percentage
> of proles complied with that?  I wasn't aware until a few days ago that
> California had an outdoor mask mandate.  I never wore one, never had anyone
> comment at the time.
> 
> Anyone with any common sense realized from the start that outdoor masks are
> pointless.  I saw plenty of people driving alone in a car with a mask.  That
> is just silly and possibly dangerous, if the mask traps too much exhaled
> CO2.  I saw plenty of people exercising alone outdoors with a mask.  After a
> while I began to suspect it was a symbol of alliance rather than an actual
> device for stopping contagion.
> 
> spike 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 09:22:33 2021
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 11:22:33 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>

I work with anesthesia/intensive care and while I try to stay clear of
stroke diagnosis I do see a lot of strange stuff in the ER and ICU. When
you have seen enough patients with obtunded awareness you start to
recognise what's the usual and when it is unusual.
I have had the questionable honour of treating an entire rehab unit for GHB
intoxication (at the same time) and nowadays I can usually pick the GHB tox
diagnosis on the characteristics of the patient.
And so on, if an established expert on something tells you it is possible
it usually is.
Clarke's 1 law :


   1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is
   possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is
   impossible, he is very probably wrong.

Now is the person distinguished enough for this to apply? That another
question but Rafael fulfill my standards at least.

Suicide risks aside, as big as they are, how common is home invasion
requiring lethal defense really? When USAians talk about it, it sounds like
it is a daily occurrence and anyone who doesn't sleep with a shotgun under
the pillow is pre-dead soon to be post dead. Is it really that bad?

When following the news over here, most people killed in their homes are
swated in an erroneous no-nock search. That might be triggered by the
children's computer gaming or just bad adress handling from the swat-team.

 Correlating question, is it ok to successfully defend your home against an
no-nock swatting?

/Henrik


Den s?n 25 apr. 2021 05:47Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev:

>
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 8:06 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Seen any hysterical paralysis or blindness, Rafal?  Have you learned to
>> tell the lies by their body language or voice?
>>
>>
> ### I see hysterical paralysis all the time (now it's politically
> incorrect to use the gender-related term "hysteria", have to say
> "conversion"). It's often easy pick up some telltale signs on examination,
> most fakers are dumb and they make a lot of mistakes. And then there is the
> magnet of truth, the MRI machine that shows the absence of stroke and other
> lesions. Sometimes there is a question of whether the patient has a
> migraine aura, which is a stroke mimic but with attentive examination it is
> often possible to tell aura from faking.
>
> I don't see psychogenic blindness often. There are a couple neat tricks to
> tell it apart from organic blindness, like testing for optokinetic
> nystagmus and visual threat. With the most persistent fakers you can do
> visual evoked potentials on EEG.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 10:20:18 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 06:20:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fQrjTB6ih1+PYfemvSiP7kFyzhCSHmHpJJDCiZwbR+2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:26 AM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Suicide risks aside, as big as they are, how common is home invasion
> requiring lethal defense really? When USAians talk about it, it sounds like
> it is a daily occurrence and anyone who doesn't sleep with a shotgun under
> the pillow is pre-dead soon to be post dead. Is it really that bad?
>

Some places are worse than others, some people are more likely to be
targeted than others, but, generally, no.

 Correlating question, is it ok to successfully defend your home against an
> no-nock swatting?
>

Self defense is always justified, whether it's legal or not.

-Dave
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 28 14:59:18 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 07:59:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] pistols

 

>?When following the news over here, most people killed in their homes are swated in an erroneous no-nock search. That might be triggered by the children's computer gaming or just bad adress handling from the swat-team.

 

>? Correlating question, is it ok to successfully defend your home against an no-nock swatting?

 

/Henrik

 

Henrik, home invasion is practically zero in the USA.  The bad guys know that is a really risky idea.  Any attempt might well be their last day at the office.  If a home invasion does occur, by the next week, most of the homes in that area are heavily armed with citizens eager to demonstrate their new toys.

No knock SWATing is preceded by a warrant (if they do it legally.)  Back in the crack cocaine epidemic in LA, they had cases where people barricaded themselves inside a house and sold dope thru a mail slot.  The warrant would be delivered that way.  In those cases, the raids were preceded by turning off the water, gas, electricity to the home and waiting for a few days.

In the USA today, police are being vilified daily for profit by our mainstream media.  It sells clicks like nobody?s business.  It sells guns like nobody?s business (heh, the gun shops, oh what a hopping place these days.)  

Plenty of people can see where this leads: officers deciding to go into another line of work where they are appreciated, understaffed forces, longer response times, citizens responsible for their own homeland defense, political pressure to change laws to make it safer and more practical to be one?s own police force (which is already happening.)

spike

 

 

 

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From interzone at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 15:26:51 2021
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 11:26:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH9HX+GJ-uXq8xs722RH-z0bbVoKyEDX24aR8yy6amuH+A@mail.gmail.com>

Bill-

I'm late to the discussion, and it doesn't tick all your boxes, but I'd
give some thought to a Ruger LCR .22, a revolver that holds 8 rounds (
https://ruger.com/products/lcr/specSheets/5410.html).   People like to
complain about the stopping power of a .22LR which I suppose is valid, but
it's a very small gun, gives you 2 extra rounds compared to a typical
revolver, and is ultra reliable.

In semis, I love the FN509 midsize 9MM.   It's not compact, but is still
small enough to carry concealed, and is very well made.   It has 4 safeties
but other than the hinged trigger, they're pretty much all passive.

I understand if no manual safety is a showstopper, but personally, I think
manual safeties do more harm than good and should be avoided.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 9:56 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I am a little torn: I have a Ruger .22.  Roz will have a Glock 19 gen 5 if
> I get no recommendations that seem objective.  Do I need another gun?  Can
> I sell my .22?  Nothing on eBay I notice.  Illegal?  She will be in the
> back of the house, far from the front doors, and I am ten feet from it and
> twenty feet from the only back door.  A bold break-in would likely leave
> Roz far away from the action; but she will have the pistol.  I think you
> are probably right and I need to get a gun that will stop someone faster
> than the .22 could.  Come to think of it, I haven't thought of it.  My .22
> is in the back of the house.  I'll move it up here.  This is a quiet
> neighborhood, circa 50s.  Four blocks from the courthouse.
>
> I judge my security to be inadequate.
>
> Thanks    bill w
>
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 7:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>
>> *Subject:* [ExI] pistols
>>
>>
>>
>> OK, ladies and gentlemen, recall the T shirt that some women wore?
>>
>> "I am out of estrogen and I have a gun."
>>
>>
>>
>> That describes my wife except that she doesn't have a gun.  So let's get
>> her one.
>>
>> ?
>>
>>
>>
>> So - please let me have your recommendations - new guns only - accuracy
>> not an issue (target shooting will be done but am not aiming for accuracy,
>> just stopping power and lots of noise)
>>
>>     bill w
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi BillW,
>>
>>
>>
>> Being as this is not the right forum for that discussion, I will post my
>> recommendations privately.  The obvious question is OK, one for your bride,
>> but what about you?  As the member of the family who is the former US
>> militia man, one might think you would want to keep and bear as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 15:38:50 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:38:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH9HX+GJ-uXq8xs722RH-z0bbVoKyEDX24aR8yy6amuH+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH9HX+GJ-uXq8xs722RH-z0bbVoKyEDX24aR8yy6amuH+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZF9Aquo5_1hfcT=ongrbvqKb-yewXVsZ8nn_r+7hQKMQ@mail.gmail.com>

I thank everyone for their input.  My wife has decided that she doesn't
want a gun.  I have the Ruger Mark One with LR hollow points, so perhaps we
are adequately protected.

We did have a sort of home invasion.  A black man tried to get in the front
door in broad daylight and my wife pushed him back and talked him out of
it.  I saw him a few minutes later up the street talking to the police.  I
think he must have been drunk or was a mental patient the police already
knew, as they were making no moves to arrest him.  The incident did change
the place where I keep my Ruger.

Again - thanks    bill w

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:30 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Bill-
>
> I'm late to the discussion, and it doesn't tick all your boxes, but I'd
> give some thought to a Ruger LCR .22, a revolver that holds 8 rounds (
> https://ruger.com/products/lcr/specSheets/5410.html).   People like to
> complain about the stopping power of a .22LR which I suppose is valid, but
> it's a very small gun, gives you 2 extra rounds compared to a typical
> revolver, and is ultra reliable.
>
> In semis, I love the FN509 midsize 9MM.   It's not compact, but is still
> small enough to carry concealed, and is very well made.   It has 4 safeties
> but other than the hinged trigger, they're pretty much all passive.
>
> I understand if no manual safety is a showstopper, but personally, I think
> manual safeties do more harm than good and should be avoided.
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 9:56 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I am a little torn: I have a Ruger .22.  Roz will have a Glock 19 gen 5
>> if I get no recommendations that seem objective.  Do I need another gun?
>> Can I sell my .22?  Nothing on eBay I notice.  Illegal?  She will be in the
>> back of the house, far from the front doors, and I am ten feet from it and
>> twenty feet from the only back door.  A bold break-in would likely leave
>> Roz far away from the action; but she will have the pistol.  I think you
>> are probably right and I need to get a gun that will stop someone faster
>> than the .22 could.  Come to think of it, I haven't thought of it.  My .22
>> is in the back of the house.  I'll move it up here.  This is a quiet
>> neighborhood, circa 50s.  Four blocks from the courthouse.
>>
>> I judge my security to be inadequate.
>>
>> Thanks    bill w
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 7:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>
>>> *Subject:* [ExI] pistols
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, ladies and gentlemen, recall the T shirt that some women wore?
>>>
>>> "I am out of estrogen and I have a gun."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That describes my wife except that she doesn't have a gun.  So let's get
>>> her one.
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So - please let me have your recommendations - new guns only - accuracy
>>> not an issue (target shooting will be done but am not aiming for accuracy,
>>> just stopping power and lots of noise)
>>>
>>>     bill w
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi BillW,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Being as this is not the right forum for that discussion, I will post my
>>> recommendations privately.  The obvious question is OK, one for your bride,
>>> but what about you?  As the member of the family who is the former US
>>> militia man, one might think you would want to keep and bear as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 17:11:06 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:11:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTE3X3wzVVSf30OeR7FFk+VwiMvUA3XYUFKwN72GVMmbA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  No knock SWATing is preceded by a warrant (if they do it legally.)
>

I am someone who has been no-knock police raided (arguably not technically
SWATted since they didn't bring out an actual SWAT, but opening doors with
handguns in hand is enough) where they had no warrant and violated certain
other legal requirements, and even I still see no need to keep firearms in
my house.  (Granted, over half of my house's residents have some level of
martial arts training.)
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 28 17:27:25 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:27:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTE3X3wzVVSf30OeR7FFk+VwiMvUA3XYUFKwN72GVMmbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
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 mbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501d73c53$c205a160$4610e420$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] pistols

 

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 No knock SWATing is preceded by a warrant (if they do it legally.)

 

>?I am someone who has been no-knock police raided (arguably not technically SWATted since they didn't bring out an actual SWAT, but opening doors with handguns in hand is enough) where they had no warrant and violated certain other legal requirements?

 

 

Adrian did you report it to the Chief?  If no satisfaction, to the mayor?  If no satisfaction, to the mainstream media?  

 

Someone shoulda had hell to pay at the department.

 

apikw 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 17:38:22 2021
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:38:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <000501d73c53$c205a160$4610e420$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRnLDDeAoZPbZDzqZLyS8FuEAm_Nwv-DybF79rEArui9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:27 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] pistols
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>  No knock SWATing is preceded by a warrant (if they do it legally.)
>
>
>
> >?I am someone who has been no-knock police raided (arguably not
> technically SWATted since they didn't bring out an actual SWAT, but opening
> doors with handguns in hand is enough) where they had no warrant and
> violated certain other legal requirements?
>
>
>
>
>
> Adrian did you report it to the Chief?  If no satisfaction, to the mayor?
> If no satisfaction, to the mainstream media?
>
>
>
> Someone shoulda had hell to pay at the department.
>

This was decades ago.  I was a minor at the time.  My mother reported it up
the chain once she found out (only my brother and I were home when the raid
began), but I never heard if anything came of it.

The raid was demanded and escorted by the FBI, at the (local) height of the
hacker scare.  They were after a former resident of our address, an
ex-employee of Apple who stole stuff on his way out.  All they found of his
efforts was one cable he had forgotten to take with him.
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From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Apr 28 17:57:17 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:57:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
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 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29100adc-05fc-0f42-9d72-d62be23bef8f@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-28 02:22, Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat wrote:
>  ?Correlating question, is it ok to successfully defend your home 
> against an no-nock swatting?

According to the jury in the one trial I've heard of, yes.

...
I forget whether this was in the Harding Street case or what, but 
someone said "although the officers were not in uniform, they were 
dressed in such a way that anyone should recognize that they were 
police."  Wish I knew what that means!  Are there non-uniform garments 
not available to the general public?

It reminds me of a line in ?The Streets of San Francisco?, a police 
drama made in 197x: ?You come here with your cop raincoat ...?

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 28 18:04:21 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 11:04:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] donor head
Message-ID: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

I heard some news this morning that made my day completely, even before breakfast.

 

I went out on a stroll and was talking to my neighbor, hell of a nice guy, had a bad episode in the hospital 4 yrs ago, doctors errors, kidneys failed, they managed to work it back up to about 5% function, medics have been keeping him alive (after a fashion) since then with meds and dialysis supplementing his limited remaining kidney, but he has been damn sick since then.  He is low on the transplant priority list because of his age, and he doesn?t grow any younger while he waits and hopes.

 

This morning he seemed upbeat way more than usual, more than I have seen him in a long time.  Turns out they found a match for his oddball tissue type and he is going to get a kidney as soon as they can get the arrangements made, possibly as soon as Friday.

 

I have long been a registered organ donor, but it occurred to me about 20 yrs ago that it is in possible conflict with cryonics.  I think the organ people harvest what they want before Alcor even gets a chance.  I am not currently signed up for cryonics.

 

An idea occurred to me.  If humanity ever advances enough to try to upload a frozen brain, it is highly likely that the early cases would need to be done destructively: we would need to take that brain apart in order to try to create a sim of it.  So that first guy would have only one chance without the benefit of later technology, and even if it works, all else being equal there is no reason to think it better to wake up in 2521 than in 2321.  So the Alcor clients suffer from the politeness paradox: After you, no after you, no I insist, ladies first, no I insist, I am identifying as a man today, after you please?

 

OK then, someone hasta volunteer to go first.

 

Possible way out of the politeness paradox in the spirit of organ donation: I would donate my head to Alcor, understanding that the first attempts are likely to fail but may be highly educational for Alcor.  So? I gave my bride my heart (figuratively), I give anything else the Stanford medics can use including my literal heart, then arrange for Alcor to have an experimental head, one which Alcor already knows well because of my writings in this forum.  It would allow Alcor to measure how much of me made the trip across the centuries: does the uploaded brain write stuff like this?  If not, that process didn?t work.  No silly ideas, no spike.  It ain?t really me.

 

This whole notion isn?t as self-sacrificing as it sounds really.  Currently I am not signed up, so I wouldn?t actually be risking anything volunteering to be an experimental donor head, willing to go first.

 

In the meantime, nothing can happen today which would turn it into a bad day, after learning that my neighbor is likely to get well soon.

 

Next time you are tempted to despair over some goofy thing, ask yourself: are your kidneys working?  Mine are too.  Life is good.

 

spike

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 18:15:36 2021
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:15:36 -0600
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>

Great story Spike,
Except the part where you're not signed up yet.
Got to get it done.  Such a relief, for everyone, to finally have that job
done.
I need to get it done for the rest of my family.  Don't want to be without
them, either.

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 12:06 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> I heard some news this morning that made my day completely, even before
> breakfast.
>
>
>
> I went out on a stroll and was talking to my neighbor, hell of a nice guy,
> had a bad episode in the hospital 4 yrs ago, doctors errors, kidneys
> failed, they managed to work it back up to about 5% function, medics have
> been keeping him alive (after a fashion) since then with meds and dialysis
> supplementing his limited remaining kidney, but he has been damn sick since
> then.  He is low on the transplant priority list because of his age, and he
> doesn?t grow any younger while he waits and hopes.
>
>
>
> This morning he seemed upbeat way more than usual, more than I have seen
> him in a long time.  Turns out they found a match for his oddball tissue
> type and he is going to get a kidney as soon as they can get the
> arrangements made, possibly as soon as Friday.
>
>
>
> I have long been a registered organ donor, but it occurred to me about 20
> yrs ago that it is in possible conflict with cryonics.  I think the organ
> people harvest what they want before Alcor even gets a chance.  I am not
> currently signed up for cryonics.
>
>
>
> An idea occurred to me.  If humanity ever advances enough to try to upload
> a frozen brain, it is highly likely that the early cases would need to be
> done destructively: we would need to take that brain apart in order to try
> to create a sim of it.  So that first guy would have only one chance
> without the benefit of later technology, and even if it works, all else
> being equal there is no reason to think it better to wake up in 2521 than
> in 2321.  So the Alcor clients suffer from the politeness paradox: After
> you, no after you, no I insist, ladies first, no I insist, I am identifying
> as a man today, after you please?
>
>
>
> OK then, someone hasta volunteer to go first.
>
>
>
> Possible way out of the politeness paradox in the spirit of organ
> donation: I would donate my head to Alcor, understanding that the first
> attempts are likely to fail but may be highly educational for Alcor.  So? I
> gave my bride my heart (figuratively), I give anything else the Stanford
> medics can use including my literal heart, then arrange for Alcor to have
> an experimental head, one which Alcor already knows well because of my
> writings in this forum.  It would allow Alcor to measure how much of me
> made the trip across the centuries: does the uploaded brain write stuff
> like this?  If not, that process didn?t work.  No silly ideas, no spike.
> It ain?t really me.
>
>
>
> This whole notion isn?t as self-sacrificing as it sounds really.
> Currently I am not signed up, so I wouldn?t actually be risking anything
> volunteering to be an experimental donor head, willing to go first.
>
>
>
> In the meantime, nothing can happen today which would turn it into a bad
> day, after learning that my neighbor is likely to get well soon.
>
>
>
> Next time you are tempted to despair over some goofy thing, ask yourself:
> are your kidneys working?  Mine are too.  Life is good.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 18:27:37 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 14:27:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cgENM=USpi-dEeSQQmdSQBopj+rVMs9DrStGTbTrRQQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 11:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> In the USA today, police are being vilified daily for profit by our
> mainstream media.
>

No, there's really a problem with excessive force and police
accountability. Yes, a few (usual involving race) cases garner a huge
amount of attention, but they highlight fundamental problems with excessive
force and police accountability. Former Rep. Justin Amash says:

*Restore justice to our justice system:*









*End qualified immunity.End civil asset forfeiture.End the drug war.End
victimless crimes.End overcriminalization.End no-knock warrants.End
militarization of police.End mandatory minimums.End the death penalty.*

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1384650820311031811

I think that would be a good start. Police unions are too powerful and
something needs to be done about that, too.

-Dave
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From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Apr 28 18:35:52 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 11:35:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <fc6c69a1-0121-cc07-9c8e-b5707021acc9@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-28 11:04, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> So the Alcor clients suffer from the politeness paradox: After you, no 
> after you, no I insist, ladies first, no I insist, I am identifying as a 
> man today, after you please?
> 
> OK then, someone hasta volunteer to go first.

I have the impression - dunno if someone said it explicitly or what - 
that Alcor intends to undo the last suspensions first, assuming they 
will be the best preserved and easiest to restore.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Apr 28 18:37:29 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 11:37:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH9HX+GJ-uXq8xs722RH-z0bbVoKyEDX24aR8yy6amuH+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH9HX+GJ-uXq8xs722RH-z0bbVoKyEDX24aR8yy6amuH+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fd205860-ef33-ff69-31aa-31c96de6e31b@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-28 08:26, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
> Ruger LCR .22, a revolver that holds 8 rounds

My Taurus holds nine, nyah nyah

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 18:37:23 2021
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 14:37:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cuD8HYR5YVdEtY_V1ESAwN=M=9ZWeovD+np6nkPKGsKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> So the Alcor clients suffer from the politeness paradox: After you, no
> after you, no I insist, ladies first, no I insist, I am identifying as a
> man today, after you please?
>

How are cryonics patients going to defer a reanimation attempt?

OK then, someone hasta volunteer to go first.
>

Surely Alcor has a process for determining the order of reanimations.
Everyone preserved has already volunteered.

-Dave

>
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From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Apr 28 18:53:24 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 11:53:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cgENM=USpi-dEeSQQmdSQBopj+rVMs9DrStGTbTrRQQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAM5aL2cgENM=USpi-dEeSQQmdSQBopj+rVMs9DrStGTbTrRQQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0dc25fe5-7eab-f4ab-211d-2b435f044ea3@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-28 11:27, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote:
> Former Rep. Justin Amash says:
>	Restore justice to our justice system:
>	End qualified immunity.
>	End civil asset forfeiture. [...]

These are related in that each hides some of the costs of state action.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 28 19:14:41 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:14:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] donor head

 

 

>?Great story Spike,

Except the part where you're not signed up yet.

Got to get it done.  Such a relief, for everyone, to finally have that job done.

I need to get it done for the rest of my family.  Don't want to be without them, either.

 

 

 

Thanks Brent.  I am glad to hear it, me lad.  Well done indeed.

 

But now I have a moral dilemma on my hands.  In order to sign up, I would become a full status cryonics client and I wouldn?t want to be an experimental donor head.  So any benefit to the others in the dewar would be lost and we would be back to the old politeness paradox: After you, no after you?

 

Furthermore? I would de-sign for organ donation, for fear they would delay my suspension grabbing kidneys and such.  But even if Alcor got to go first, usable donor organs spoil quickly so the organ donors who would otherwise benefit wouldn?t.

 

But it?s even worse than that really.

 

I need to ponder a little more, at which time I shall elaborate on that comment.

 

spike

 

 

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From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Apr 28 19:47:40 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:47:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <074da1bb-9a5d-7fd0-3e3b-30539ad4199b@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-28 12:14, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> Furthermore? I would de-sign for organ donation, for fear they would 
> delay my suspension grabbing kidneys and such.? But even if Alcor got to 
> go first, usable donor organs spoil quickly so the organ donors [sic] who 
> would otherwise benefit wouldn?t.

Worse: the perfusion itself makes the organs useless for donation, or so 
I was told many years ago.

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 28 19:56:05 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:56:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <006c01d73c68$86bc6d40$943547c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Subject: RE: [ExI] donor head

 

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] donor head

 

 

>>?Great story Spike,

Except the part where you're not signed up yet?.

 

 

 

>?Thanks Brent?But now I have a moral dilemma on my hands.  ? But it?s even worse than that really.

 

>?I need to ponder a little more...spike

 

 

OK pondered it, and have a commentary and a solution, of sorts.

 

We need a designated deleter.

 

What?s a designated deleter please?  Well, it?s the software equivalent of a designated driver, someone with a duty for the safety of others.  Read on please.

 

Perhaps you know of Pascal?s Wager, where the philosopher (who discovered a whole buttload of cool math (and so is forever on my list of people who can do no wrong)) expounded on how humans make a win-draw bet on the existence of god.  If they choose to believe and are right, then good.  If they choose to believe and are wrong, then nothing happens, so what the ?hell? difference does it make?  It?s a win-draw bet, ja?

 

OK it occurred to me that cryonics has a version of Pascal?s Wager, kinda sorta.

 

Imagine the middle age traditional description of the afterlife for the believers.  Being able to hang out (float out?) with Pascal is cool and all, but you really miss country western bars, steel guitars, dance floors and so forth, the things you really lived for while you lived, things they just don?t have in this particular afterlife.  Floating around in the clouds sounds cool but after a while you miss the feel of wooden boards beneath your boots, back when you could still have boots.  You can?t play a ripping squealy riff at all with the available instruments.  You begin to inquire about the possibility of visiting the other place occasionally.

 

But spike, what has that to do with designated deleter, you may will ask.

 

Suppose someone volunteers to go first, and it works, but since it is a new technology and we all know the first everything crashes even if it kinda works.  Suppose it works, you wake up as software, Hey cool!  I am alive!  And since I am software, I am indefinite, I can do whatever I want etc.  Excellent!  Sim life is gooooood!

 

Eventually it occurs to ?me? to compare ?myself? to my bio-self to verify that all of ?me? made it into this form.  Over the years I have downloaded (or is it uploaded?) my brain into the internet, mostly on ExI.  If you read my stuff you pretty much know who I am, and can tell if not-me is writing.  So? it occurs to my sim-self to read the writings of my bio-self, most of which is to be found in ExI archives.

 

Well? I soon find that not all of me made it.  It seems to the sim-me that the bio-me was having a hell of a good time being a carbon unit, even while knowing he was done for, even compared to the sim-me, who doesn?t carry that burden.  Bio-me was dreaming up of all kindsa cool crap, all the time!  Sim-me can see that bio-me?s life was (at least in some ways) better.  Perhaps later technology would allow more bio-me-ish creativity or something.

 

So? sim-me starts looking for a way to download back down into carbon, but of course humanity is nowhere near that stage of tech, so? can?t do it sorry.  If the actual meat brain still exists, there is a chance, but sim-me?s bio-me brain had to be wrecked in order to upload it, so? can?t go there.

 

Then an idea occurred to me.  If some kind bio-unit could arrange for sim-me to never know about what fun I had while I was a bio-unit, then I wouldn?t become the digital equivalent of the saddest cloud floater in the harp section.  If someone volunteered to find a way for software to not be able to access its predecessor writings, such as systematically deleting it, then the sim-mes would not have the option of comparing itself to its own bio-mes.  Then that upload would be a lot happier software.

 

Cinclusion: we need a designated deleter.

 

Innocent ExI late-comers who arrived after most of the cryonics discussion was a decade in the past, such as BillW, must be asking the obvious question here: Whaaaaaat in the heeeeeellllll?...

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 28 20:05:51 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:05:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhLF=N3HZKKyYf+7ggBiAURVGiwPoE16+ZZ4-uJ99=q1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 20:18, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> But now I have a moral dilemma on my hands.  In order to sign up, I would become a full status cryonics client and I wouldn?t want to be an experimental donor head.  So any benefit to the others in the dewar would be lost and we would be back to the old politeness paradox: After you, no after you?
>
> Furthermore? I would de-sign for organ donation, for fear they would delay my suspension grabbing kidneys and such.  But even if Alcor got to go first, usable donor organs spoil quickly so the organ donors who would otherwise benefit wouldn?t.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I think this is a non-existing problem.  There is no way Alcor will be
experimenting with human heads / bodies. They will not attempt human
revival until they are really, really confident of success. Just think
of the PR shock and horror!   It would get Alcor closed down.
It is never going to happen.



BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 28 20:21:35 2021
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:21:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhLF=N3HZKKyYf+7ggBiAURVGiwPoE16+ZZ4-uJ99=q1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhLF=N3HZKKyYf+7ggBiAURVGiwPoE16+ZZ4-uJ99=q1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007b01d73c6c$16981880$43c84980$@rainier66.com>


>> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] donor head

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 at 20:18, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
...
>
>> Furthermore? I would de-sign for organ donation, for fear they would delay my suspension grabbing kidneys and such.  But even if Alcor got to go first, usable donor organs spoil quickly so the organ donors who would otherwise benefit wouldn?t.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I think this is a non-existing problem.  There is no way Alcor will be experimenting with human heads / bodies. They will not attempt human revival until they are really, really confident of success. Just think
of the PR shock and horror!   It would get Alcor closed down.
It is never going to happen.



BillK

_______________________________________________


On the contrary, BillK.

If a donor head is a volunteer, who understands (understood?) that by volunteering to offer a donor head, it has no expectation of successful uploading (but will cheerfully accept it if it works.)  It donates itself with the full understanding that someone at some future time, hasta go first.  This kind of technology isn't going to spring into existence.  

When they created the fictional Star Trek transporter, some ballsy someone had to stand there, grit her teeth and say:  If this works, see you over there in a few seconds on that side of the lab, and if it doesn't work, adios amigos, you sorry buncha incompetent bastards, better luck next time, OK beam me up.  

I am volunteering to be the first Star Trek beamer.

spike



From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Apr 28 21:48:02 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 14:48:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] donor head
In-Reply-To: <006c01d73c68$86bc6d40$943547c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002a01d73c58$ea40e8b0$bec2ba10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontjs75NP+cjgb3dZQE9GfSPXhePxBHpCA3PEYPdKADP+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01d73c62$be218b90$3a64a2b0$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d73c68$86bc6d40$943547c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <b4f1522a-9c1d-333d-4289-73bdbd9a37b8@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-28 12:56, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> Then an idea occurred to me.? If some kind bio-unit could arrange for 
> sim-me to never know about what fun I had while I was a bio-unit, then I 
> wouldn?t become the digital equivalent of the saddest cloud floater in 
> the harp section.? If someone volunteered to find a way for software to 
> not be able to access its predecessor writings, such as systematically 
> deleting it, then the sim-mes would not have the option of comparing 
> itself to its own bio-mes.? Then that upload would be a lot happier 
> software.

This reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JlxuQ7tPgQ

-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From bronto at pobox.com  Wed Apr 28 23:09:23 2021
From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 16:09:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pistols
In-Reply-To: <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZgtTGE3PPGZ31=AM7bMFkfjzGOau+11b1FCXpi2Ls96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201d7357a$5dd0db90$197292b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbCskX440A6F=2=WtHBWvWC0Uw3kmq1qyRSj7_rNKn+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypXoiq_V_nMTb3QpFZN6wsR8MvomC8=3pmMBSNxZrNNGEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUZJz34daVQcsh4ZwFy6EOCb7YF71obFfoctruwHBxu2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypXUxWDVfOMsk7VsQ7jjDbCTVjp0j42Y22=b5MSA2oi+BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFh_krbt0svk2-TZUKwRUfPJrpPDAXxYgDjZs6QvJ4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWPD7cwDa6wF8Rs=yaS1C1DSYCzuhhUuU1uacd5U0wpXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiYi25QNZs0VoGaGJ1xSWs_VO0aWEJrAkB8t4ENM+X0sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYG=90fEbWbS1vEfAk9vXvsmFnFyfd1U4Pp4CjUwCZksA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFg5A-tKLBMuGud+mOyLNgsX=uWhLSpqnY1B9kknfHaQGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBngdT=feFHcZMOAJ2VMcsH=WG8gqdQrgdm_ynU+Pkx2EJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <8e519776-e366-c105-24d4-81aaacc0db74@pobox.com>

On 2021-4-28 07:59, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> No knock SWATing is preceded by a warrant (if they do it legally.) 

If by "preceded" you mean the invaders must be authorized by a judge, 
yes; of course the targets have no way of knowing that the warrant 
exists.  The whole point of a "no knock" warrant is to deprive the 
occupants of opportunity to defend themselves or destroy evidence.

> Back in the crack cocaine epidemic in LA, they had cases where people 
> barricaded themselves inside a house and sold dope thru a mail slot.  
> The warrant would be delivered that way.? [...]

Not exactly "no knock", then.

> In the USA today, police are being vilified daily for profit by our 
> mainstream media.? It sells clicks like nobody?s business.? [...]

And yet reporters still usually transcribe the police spokesmodel's 
story without comment.

> Plenty of people can see where this leads: officers deciding to go into 

> another line of work where they are appreciated, understaffed forces, 

Wouldn't be so understaffed if some of their functions were transferred 
to people without license to kill (traffic tickets, mental health 
intervention) or abandoned entirely (vice).

> longer response times, citizens responsible for their own homeland 
> defense, political pressure to change laws to make it safer and more 
> practical to be one?s own police force (which is already happening.)


-- 
*\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org



From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 12:22:33 2021
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 13:22:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Talk to GPT-3 via Philosopher AI website
Message-ID: <CAL_armguyeshJvH+p8wHZEnFys2H1OT7r2xkKdXfFreSe8shFA@mail.gmail.com>

Seems to work OK.
<https://philosopherai.xyz/>

I asked it "What is Extropian?"

Replies-

Extropian is a term used to refer to a transhuman, that is, a human
who seeks to transcend their biological limitations through
technology.

For example, a transhumanist might seek to become immortal by
uploading their mind into a computer.

While the term "transhuman" is a more accurate term than "extropian",
the latter is typically used in contexts other than discussions on
philosophy. For example, the rock band Trans-Siberian Orchestra has
nothing to do with transhumanism; the band takes its name from the
trans-Siberian railway.

In this way, the term "extropian" is used in many scenarios that have
little to do with transhumanism. The extropians are a
techno-optimistic libertarian anarchist think tank.
--------------

BillK

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 12:39:35 2021
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 05:39:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Talk to GPT-3 via Philosopher AI website
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armguyeshJvH+p8wHZEnFys2H1OT7r2xkKdXfFreSe8shFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armguyeshJvH+p8wHZEnFys2H1OT7r2xkKdXfFreSe8shFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <581458B1-0F56-4718-8D45-AE469D585859@gmail.com>

Didn?t work that well for me:

https://philosopherai.xyz/2c1b0c9c-d448-411e-a05c-532ed501f613

What is substantivalism?

Substantivalism is a position in the philosophy of mathematics. It states that numbers and mathematical objects have real existence.
In contrast, abstractionism states that mathematical objects are objective but do not exist.
In the context of justice, a substantivalist might argue that a murderer deserves to spend the rest of their life in prison, or even face the death penalty. In contrast, an abstractionist might say that while the murderer committed a crime against humanity, an additional punishment is not required as it does not correct the wrongs of the deed. A counter argument to this might be that such action would deter other people from committing similar crimes in the future.
And besides, if you're going to argue deontological ethics, then that means the moral value of an action is independent of the consequences of that action. This means that arguments such as "locking him up for a long time or even killing him prevents him from killing again" are not relevant in determining punishment.

Compare:

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/substantivalism

> On Apr 29, 2021, at 5:26 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Seems to work OK.
> <https://philosopherai.xyz/>
> 
> I asked it "What is Extropian?"
> 
> Replies-
> 
> Extropian is a term used to refer to a transhuman, that is, a human
> who seeks to transcend their biological limitations through
> technology.
> 
> For example, a transhumanist might seek to become immortal by
> uploading their mind into a computer.
> 
> While the term "transhuman" is a more accurate term than "extropian",
> the latter is typically used in contexts other than discussions on
> philosophy. For example, the rock band Trans-Siberian Orchestra has
> nothing to do with transhumanism; the band takes its name from the
> trans-Siberian railway.
> 
> In this way, the term "extropian" is used in many scenarios that have
> little to do with transhumanism. The extropians are a
> techno-optimistic libertarian anarchist think tank.
> --------------
> 
> BillK
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 16:39:02 2021
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 11:39:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] cops
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZQDQ0w6AGvhCKPOEBWy=-u3Yq1JS9=73R7nUSqc3L__A@mail.gmail.com>

Here, near Jackson, MS, I read daily of homicides there.  Almost inevitably
the victim and the shooter knew one another - got into a dispute outside a
bar, pulled a gun and started shooting.  Yes, there are driveby shooting
which harm or kill other people in the house, but the shoots were meant for
someone known to the shooter.

The Jackson police chief is being bitterly blamed for not doing anything
about these crimes.  I would ask:  just what do you expect him to do?  This
type of crime seems to me to be unable to be prevented.  You can't take a
gun away from someone until they have committed a crime with it, eh?  The
only illegal guns here are ones carried by felons - no license required for
anyone else.  So, take it away and it will be quickly replaced.

Black culture around here is an honor culture, and dissing someone will get
you retaliation, probably with a gun.  Of course the white culture is very
similar but somehow does not produce the quantity of shootings the Blacks
do.

The above consists of unwarranted criticisms of the police.   bill w
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