From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 1 00:42:51 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 16:42:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] thoughts on omicron Message-ID: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> We are hearing about omicron covid, and the actions various governments are taking to try to stop it, but we have seen this before: nothing can stop a virus. Sooner or later it will get everywhere, we know the story well. Virologists point out that the very most contagious mutations are those which don?t really do much, because the host spreads it all over the place before she even realizes she has it. OK that makes sense to me. What if? after all this suffering and all those people perished? this is that variant which spreads really easily because doesn?t make the person all that terribly sick, but alerts the immune system in such a way that it generally reacts effectively when any of the covid mutants come along? If that is the case with omicron, then we are once again doing exactly the wrong thing: trying to stop a virus which would be beneficial (in a sense) because it would out-compete its more-deadly siblings, alerting (or training) the human immune system without actually slaying the prole who caught it. Perhaps if omicron just runs its course, it would lead to an outcome plenty of virologists suggest was the possible reason why SARS came on so suddenly in 2009, then just as suddenly just went away: a SARS variant which doesn?t do much went thru and outplayed its siblings, alerting the immune system in a way that these vaccines are apparently mostly failing to do. Have we medical hipsters among us who wish to comment? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 00:56:15 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 11:56:15 +1100 Subject: [ExI] thoughts on omicron In-Reply-To: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 11:44, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > We are hearing about omicron covid, and the actions various governments > are taking to try to stop it, but we have seen this before: nothing can > stop a virus. Sooner or later it will get everywhere, we know the story > well. > > > > Virologists point out that the very most contagious mutations are those > which don?t really do much, because the host spreads it all over the place > before she even realizes she has it. OK that makes sense to me. > > > > What if? after all this suffering and all those people perished? this is > that variant which spreads really easily because doesn?t make the person > all that terribly sick, but alerts the immune system in such a way that it > generally reacts effectively when any of the covid mutants come along? If > that is the case with omicron, then we are once again doing exactly the > wrong thing: trying to stop a virus which would be beneficial (in a sense) > because it would out-compete its more-deadly siblings, alerting (or > training) the human immune system without actually slaying the prole who > caught it. > > > > Perhaps if omicron just runs its course, it would lead to an outcome > plenty of virologists suggest was the possible reason why SARS came on so > suddenly in 2009, then just as suddenly just went away: a SARS variant > which doesn?t do much went thru and outplayed its siblings, alerting the > immune system in a way that these vaccines are apparently mostly failing to > do. > > > > Have we medical hipsters among us who wish to comment? > That is probably what has happened at some point with all the minor respiratory viruses that humans live with. However, we don't know yet that omicron will do the same. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 01:01:14 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:01:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] thoughts on omicron In-Reply-To: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 4:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What if? after all this suffering and all those people perished? this is > that variant which spreads really easily because doesn?t make the person > all that terribly sick, but alerts the immune system in such a way that it > generally reacts effectively when any of the covid mutants come along? > And what if it's the opposite: a variant that degrades immune systems, making people more susceptible to the rest? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 1 01:07:44 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:07:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] thoughts on omicron In-Reply-To: References: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002201d7e64f$d94806a0$8bd813e0$@rainier66.com> ,,,> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ? >?That is probably what has happened at some point with all the minor respiratory viruses that humans live with. However, we don't know yet that omicron will do the same. -- Stathis Papaioannou Ja Stathis, so far all we have are the South African medics saying this variant apparently isn?t all that severe. We don?t have enough data yet to know if this is THE ONE which will end the covid nightmare. We can hope. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 1 01:09:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:09:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] thoughts on omicron In-Reply-To: References: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002e01d7e650$0a8d17f0$1fa747d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] thoughts on omicron On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 4:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: What if? after all this suffering and all those people perished? this is that variant which spreads really easily because doesn?t make the person all that terribly sick, but alerts the immune system in such a way that it generally reacts effectively when any of the covid mutants come along? >? And what if it's the opposite: a variant that degrades immune systems, making people more susceptible to the rest? We aughta be able to find out by testing the omicron survivors for antibodies, ja? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 01:15:18 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:15:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] thoughts on omicron In-Reply-To: <002201d7e64f$d94806a0$8bd813e0$@rainier66.com> References: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> <002201d7e64f$d94806a0$8bd813e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 5:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > We don?t have enough data yet to know if this is THE ONE which will end > the covid nightmare. We can hope. > ...that it exterminates the human race, thus exterminating itself by running out of hosts? I'd rather not hope for that outcome. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 1 01:38:56 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:38:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] thoughts on omicron In-Reply-To: References: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> <002201d7e64f$d94806a0$8bd813e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006001d7e654$34a57920$9df06b60$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] thoughts on omicron On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 5:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: We don?t have enough data yet to know if this is THE ONE which will end the covid nightmare. We can hope. >...that it exterminates the human race, thus exterminating itself by running out of hosts? I'd rather not hope for that outcome. Adrian we have strong counterindications of that outcome already. None of these covid variants kill most of their hosts. If we have one evolve that kills half its victims and spreads so wildly nothing can stop it, the world goes on, but with a population about the same as it was in the 1970s. There is good evidence that if a covid variant slew all of humanity, it still wouldn?t go extinct: white-tailed deer can host it. There is another counterindicator: virus extinction has only been seen once: disease is thought to have caused extinction of rats on Christmas Island. I would take that as evidence that just doesn?t happen. If we want to do what ifs, one I would entertain is what if? a virus did take out half of humanity (apparently something like this is kinda theoretically possible.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 11:59:14 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 11:59:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here Message-ID: In this article, we have collected 5 examples of real-life autonomous weapons which exist today, and have either already been deployed in military operations or are being deployed in the near future. Quotes: 1 ? US AIR FORCE MQ-9 REAPER 2 ? MODIFIED M600 DRONE 3 ? STM KARGU-2 4 ? SPUR 5 ? JAEGER-C Should Algorithms decide who lives and who dies? Clearly these new technologies pose a huge moral problem ? is it acceptable for us to delegate life-or-death decisions to an algorithm? ---------------------------- They don't mention surface-to-air missiles. These will have to be made autonomous as humans will not be able to react quickly enough to a wave of air attacks. BillK From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 13:58:42 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:58:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] living robots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 4:21 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In case you missed the story: > > > https://wyss.harvard.edu/news/team-builds-first-living-robots-that-can-reproduce/ > Cool, but it looks to me like they aren't actually reproducing: they're collecting balls of stem cells, but they lack the shape that makes them able to collect stem cells. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 1 14:55:37 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 06:55:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] thoughts on omicron In-Reply-To: References: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004f01d7e6c3$807918b0$816b4a10$@rainier66.com> From: Tiffany Kary ? Subject: Re: [ExI] thoughts on omicron >?Here you conflate a couple of things: It isn't the case that the ability of a virus to spread is inversely correlated to its severity. (In fact, with Covid-19 we saw that the Delta variant was both more contagious AND resulted in more severe illnesses because hosts shed more virions) What contagion is correlated with is the activity of the host -- and with Covid-19, you have a long incubation period where the host doesn't experience symptoms and can go around spreading before they realize they're ill -- and in fact some people never feel very sick at all, like patient zero in New Rochelle, and keep spreading for days -- that's part of what has made this coronavirus so successful compared to past related coronaviruses like MERS where patients progressed to being bedridden very quickly once symptoms occured. >?In fact, once you start to think about how virus' ability to get around affects its evolution, here's an interesting but important side note: when people wear masks and social distance, it makes it harder for the virus to hop from person to person -- meaning the virus has even stronger motivation to keep its host alive and well...i.e. to be less dangerous. There are already signs of how this is affecting Covid-19 -- check out Figure 5: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-02548-w Cool thx Tiffany. This is the first post I recall seeing from you. Do tell us something about Tiffany Kary please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tiffkary at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 13:21:49 2021 From: tiffkary at gmail.com (Tiffany Kary) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:21:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] thoughts on omicron In-Reply-To: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001201d7e64c$5f714240$1e53c6c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Here you conflate a couple of things: It isn't the case that the ability of a virus to spread is inversely correlated to its severity. (In fact, with Covid-19 we saw that the Delta variant was both more contagious AND resulted in more severe illnesses because hosts shed more virions) What contagion *is *correlated with is the activity of the host -- and with Covid-19, you have a long incubation period where the host doesn't experience symptoms and can go around spreading before they realize they're ill -- and in fact some people never feel very sick at all, like patient zero in New Rochelle, and keep spreading for days -- that's part of what has made this coronavirus so successful compared to past related coronaviruses like MERS where patients progressed to being bedridden very quickly once symptoms occured. In fact, once you start to think about how virus' ability to get around affects its evolution, here's an interesting but important side note: when people wear masks and social distance, it makes it harder for the virus to hop from person to person -- meaning the virus has *even stronger *motivation to keep its host alive and well...i.e. to be less dangerous. There are already signs of how this is affecting Covid-19 -- check out Figure 5: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-02548-w On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 7:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > We are hearing about omicron covid, and the actions various governments > are taking to try to stop it, but we have seen this before: nothing can > stop a virus. Sooner or later it will get everywhere, we know the story > well. > > > > Virologists point out that the very most contagious mutations are those > which don?t really do much, because the host spreads it all over the place > before she even realizes she has it. OK that makes sense to me. > > > > What if? after all this suffering and all those people perished? this is > that variant which spreads really easily because doesn?t make the person > all that terribly sick, but alerts the immune system in such a way that it > generally reacts effectively when any of the covid mutants come along? If > that is the case with omicron, then we are once again doing exactly the > wrong thing: trying to stop a virus which would be beneficial (in a sense) > because it would out-compete its more-deadly siblings, alerting (or > training) the human immune system without actually slaying the prole who > caught it. > > > > Perhaps if omicron just runs its course, it would lead to an outcome > plenty of virologists suggest was the possible reason why SARS came on so > suddenly in 2009, then just as suddenly just went away: a SARS variant > which doesn?t do much went thru and outplayed its siblings, alerting the > immune system in a way that these vaccines are apparently mostly failing to > do. > > > > Have we medical hipsters among us who wish to comment? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 19:43:05 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 13:43:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] duckduck google Message-ID: I only use Google, but y'all may know: are there any search engines that are better at finding research (not highly specific) than Google? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 19:52:59 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 14:52:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 7:02 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In this article, we have collected 5 examples of real-life autonomous > weapons which exist today, and have either already been deployed in > military operations or are being deployed in the near future. > > < > https://futureoflife.org/2021/11/22/5-real-life-technologies-that-prove-autonomous-weapons-are-already-here/ > > > > Quotes: > 1 ? US AIR FORCE MQ-9 REAPER > 2 ? MODIFIED M600 DRONE > 3 ? STM KARGU-2 > 4 ? SPUR > 5 ? JAEGER-C > > Should Algorithms decide who lives and who dies? > Clearly these new technologies pose a huge moral problem ? is it > acceptable for us to delegate life-or-death decisions to an algorithm? > Those questions have already been decided, unfortunately. As an IT professional, the thought of autonomous weapons terrifies me, at least at the current state of software engineering, AI, ethics, politics, etc. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 19:54:57 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 14:54:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] duckduck google In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:45 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I only use Google, but y'all may know: are there any search engines that > are better at finding research (not highly specific) than Google? > Have you tried Google Scholar? https://scholar.google.com/ -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Wed Dec 1 20:18:31 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 20:18:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Metaverse - Could be even worse than social media. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1850656778.3661673.1638389911270@mail.yahoo.com> I just started reading the piece but the way it's written is so simple, interesting and compelling.? I hope this writer keeps on.? Loved the part where people would be labeled alcoholic, Democrat or republican because someone paid for that.? Not love like it's great but it struck me funny.? I had the laugh of my day, but this, even as a fictional example? is very worrisome. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 1:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 17:18:26 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 11:18:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] guns Message-ID: I see where the parents of the shooter in Michigan are charged with involuntary manslaughter because of not keeping the recently bought gun in a safe place. And the kid was a troubled child - that already known. What do you think? I think they should get more than a slap on the wrist, but maybe not prison. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 17:19:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 11:19:52 -0600 Subject: [ExI] guns followup for Brits Message-ID: What would happen in Britain if a parent had a pistol (all illegal there, I think) and a kid got it and killed some people? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 17:39:44 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 12:39:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] guns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 12:21 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I see where the parents of the shooter in Michigan are charged with > involuntary manslaughter because of not keeping the recently bought gun in > a safe place. And the kid was a troubled child - that already known. > > What do you think? I think they should get more than a slap on the wrist, > but maybe not prison. > Agreed. I'd say a large fine and a couple hundred hours of community service spent speaking publicly about gun safety and safe gun storage. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 23:03:02 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 23:03:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 19:55, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > Those questions have already been decided, unfortunately. As an IT professional, the thought of autonomous weapons terrifies me, at least at the current state of software engineering, AI, ethics, politics, etc. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ Apparently over 30 countries want to ban autonomous weapons, but the U.S., Russia, China, and India are against an outright ban. Mainly because they don't believe every country would adhere to the ban. Quotes: >From a U.S. government report - The authors go on to suggest autonomous weapons systems may represent an inevitability, given the increasing number of complex decisions operators will be forced to make in future battles. ?The best human operator cannot defend against multiple machines making thousands of maneuvers per second potentially moving at hypersonic speeds and orchestrated by AI across domains,? the report reads.? ?Humans cannot be everywhere at once, but software can.? --------------------- BillK From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 23:49:26 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 15:49:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:05 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Apparently over 30 countries want to ban autonomous weapons, but the > U.S., Russia, China, and India are against an outright ban. Mainly > because they don't believe every country would adhere to the ban. > > < > https://gizmodo.com/u-s-opposes-autonomous-weapons-ban-cites-what-about-c-1848158811 > > > > Quotes: > From a U.S. government report - > The authors go on to suggest autonomous weapons systems may represent > an inevitability, given the increasing number of complex decisions > operators will be forced to make in future battles. > > ?The best human operator cannot defend against multiple machines > making thousands of maneuvers per second potentially moving at > hypersonic speeds and orchestrated by AI across domains,? the report > reads.? ?Humans cannot be everywhere at once, but software can.? > This also points to potential near-term technologies that may blur the line as to what counts as "autonomous". If a human operator designates a group of hypersonic missiles to be shot down but leaves the last-second maneuvering to do so to AIs, is that autonomous? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 4 00:01:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:01:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007a01d7e8a2$15fc4800$41f4d800$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:05 PM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Apparently over 30 countries want to ban autonomous weapons, but the U.S., Russia, China, and India are against an outright ban. Mainly because they don't believe every country would adhere to the ban. >?This also points to potential near-term technologies that may blur the line as to what counts as "autonomous". If a human operator designates a group of hypersonic missiles to be shot down but leaves the last-second maneuvering to do so to AIs, is that autonomous? Adrian Ja Adrian, its worse than that in a way, for it also blurs the line as to what counts as a weapon. We think of weapons as devices that hurl bits of metal, but they need not be that. Our trade structure, our communications, our entire society is completely dependent on reliable fast internet. If an AI weapon of some sort did something as subtle as messing up credit card charges and delivery addresses, a modern society could find itself in a world of hurt and not even know what the heck to do next. We can?t go back to paper transactions: we don?t know how. Furthermore there isn?t enough paper money in circulation to cover even a fraction of our modern transaction load. We needn?t even worry about an electromagnetic pulse taking down the whole thing. Well that too, but a kind of more subtle AI weapon could screw up everything bigtime, and it wouldn?t even be clear who to nuke in retaliation. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Dec 4 00:13:27 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:13:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here In-Reply-To: <007a01d7e8a2$15fc4800$41f4d800$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d7e8a2$15fc4800$41f4d800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > We needn?t even worry about an electromagnetic pulse taking down the whole > thing. Well that too, but a kind of more subtle AI weapon could screw up > everything bigtime, and it wouldn?t even be clear who to nuke in > retaliation. > One can imagine an AI that manipulates contracts to install hack-vulnerable voting machines, then edits votes to give itself and its loyal puppets the Presidency and control of Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 4 04:23:48 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 20:23:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d7e8a2$15fc4800$41f4d800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003301d7e8c6$bc9acff0$35d06fd0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: We needn?t even worry about an electromagnetic pulse taking down the whole thing. Well that too, but a kind of more subtle AI weapon could screw up everything bigtime, and it wouldn?t even be clear who to nuke in retaliation. >?One can imagine an AI that manipulates contracts to install hack-vulnerable voting machines, then edits votes to give itself and its loyal puppets the Presidency and control of Congress. Sure but one can imagine an even easier solution: haul every electronic voting machine out into the parking lot, pass out sledge hammers and smash them to flinders. Drive a steam roller over the debris, as the people cheer. Vote with paper ballots. Count every one by hand. Shoulda done that years ago. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Dec 4 21:03:36 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2021 13:03:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Five Autonomous Weapons that are already here Message-ID: <20211204130336.Horde.pGF31d2L9qVTo_cLTa-KF_i@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting BillK: > In this article, we have collected 5 examples of real-life autonomous > weapons which exist today, and have either already been deployed in > military operations or are being deployed in the near future. > > > > Quotes: > 1 ? US AIR FORCE MQ-9 REAPER > 2 ? MODIFIED M600 DRONE > 3 ? STM KARGU-2 > 4 ? SPUR > 5 ? JAEGER-C > > Should Algorithms decide who lives and who dies? > Clearly these new technologies pose a huge moral problem ? is it > acceptable for us to delegate life-or-death decisions to an algorithm? > ---------------------------- Alright! (sarcasm) We have just unlocked Berserker technology from the classic Saberhagen series and Skynet from the Terminator series as possible futures. That being said, algorithms have probably been used for life and death decisions before, such as in health insurance where costly medical procedures are covered or not based upon some look-up table or other algorithm. > They don't mention surface-to-air missiles. These will have to be made > autonomous as humans will not be able to react quickly enough to a > wave of air attacks. > BillK https://gfycat.com/smugwebbedfirecrest There is still hope for carbon-based life! We can still survive! vincit qui patitur :) Stuart LaForge From giulio at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 07:14:49 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 08:14:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Futurist spaceflight meditations: interview Message-ID: Turing Church newsletter: Futurist spaceflight meditations: interview. Space expansionism is a cornerstone of Turing Church. Plus: Zoom link for Terasem Colloquium on Dec. 10, reading list. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/futurist-spaceflight-meditations-e6e From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 11:47:46 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 11:47:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Article reviewing progress in sexbots Message-ID: What?s so wrong about sexbots? The most sophisticated consumer sex device on the market can teach us how to coexist with AI. By Alex Pearlman December 4, 2021 Quotes: RealDollX, a line of interactive sexbots made by Las Vegas-based Abyss Creations, are enhanced with a program that is, by many accounts, the most sophisticated consumer sex device on the market. The robots are the cr?me de la cr?me of an industry that?s still in its infancy, but is growing rapidly. Estimates suggest sex tech is a $30 billion industry, boosted in part by the pandemic, but also by leaps in realism and functionality. ------- Ultimately, McMullen agrees that the dolls? most valuable function isn?t even sex. While they do have some centralized programming, the dolls? personalities feel unique; they become accustomed to the habits and lives of their owner-partners and build relationships with them, opening the door for applications well beyond the realm of sex toys. ?The conversations feel personalized because the AI remembers that you are 32 years old, and you like sushi, except on Thursdays,? says McMullen, about the dolls? ability to create deeper relationships with users. ?Robots are going to be among us, whether we like it or not,? McMullin says. ?Looking at what we?ve created, you can envision where we?re headed. Maybe it can play chess with you and sit on the couch and chill and watch a movie with you? Whoa, all of a sudden she can help you fold laundry.? ---------------- Still very early days though. No mobility. Basically a talking lifelike doll with a small amount of AI. RealDollX sales are only one to four per month, individually created, costing about 10,000 USD. When Tesla sets up a production line for much improved versions at reduced prices .......... we'll really see an upheaval in society! BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 5 14:57:05 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 06:57:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Article reviewing progress in sexbots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009a01d7e9e8$5ee9bce0$1cbd36a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Article reviewing progress in sexbots What?s so wrong about sexbots? The most sophisticated consumer sex device on the market can teach us how to coexist with AI. By Alex Pearlman December 4, 2021 Quotes: >...RealDollX, a line of interactive sexbots made by Las Vegas-based Abyss Creations, are enhanced with a program that is, by many accounts, the most sophisticated consumer sex device on the market... ?Robots are going to be among us, whether we like it or not,? McMullin says. ?Looking at what we?ve created, you can envision where we?re headed. Maybe it can play chess with you and sit on the couch and chill and watch a movie with you? Whoa, all of a sudden she can help you fold laundry.? ---------------- >...Still very early days though. No mobility. Basically a talking lifelike doll with a small amount of AI. RealDollX sales are only one to four per month, individually created, costing about 10,000 USD. When Tesla sets up a production line for much improved versions at reduced prices .......... we'll really see an upheaval in society!...BillK _______________________________________________ $10k sounds way lower than I would expect for a mechanical device with electronics. Since Walmart started providing those electric carts for those who are too hopeless to walk I noticed how common they became. It isn't even the paraplegics, who already had wheelchairs, but rather those who just decided to hell with it, I am going to eat my way off this planet. Now you see those electric cart drivers every time you go to Walmart. Enabling that caused more of it, ja? OK imagine we get good enough at companion bots that we enable those who are already pretty close to being just socially dysfunctional to go on without a human companion. That will be the social equivalent of Walmart providing electric carts for those who could previously walk down the aisles (after a clumsy fashion) which would surely result in some already struggling for social normalcy just giving up and taking the easy road. Well, OK then. Let us take that one step further please. Over time we see fewer young people who take much interest in athletic fitness. We have standards for comparison with the scouts: we can easily see standards set 60 years ago are not being commonly met today. It might be possible to draw a parallel to social fitness, and how the availability of sexbots and companion bots could reduce the overall fitness of the group. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 15:36:48 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 15:36:48 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Article reviewing progress in sexbots In-Reply-To: <009a01d7e9e8$5ee9bce0$1cbd36a0$@rainier66.com> References: <009a01d7e9e8$5ee9bce0$1cbd36a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 at 14:59, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > $10k sounds way lower than I would expect for a mechanical device with electronics. > > > Let us take that one step further please. Over time we see fewer young people who take much interest in athletic fitness. We have standards for comparison with the scouts: we can easily see standards set 60 years ago are not being commonly met today. It might be possible to draw a parallel to social fitness, and how the availability of sexbots and companion bots could reduce the overall fitness of the group. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Perhaps under $10k was just wishful thinking on my part. :) But there would be a range of prices and features. Just like electric cars. Expensive Teslas down to cheaper Chinese and Asian models, then further down to electric tuk-tuk cars, and right down to electric cargo bikes at give-away prices. Horses for courses. As the toy robots have shown, very little AI is required in order for people to treat them as intelligent. People talk to their Roombas. Some have said that 'pretend human' level AI is objectionable. The 'uncanny valley' effect really turns people off. And one thing you definitely want with a sexbot is to be comfortable with it. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 5 16:25:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 08:25:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Article reviewing progress in sexbots In-Reply-To: References: <009a01d7e9e8$5ee9bce0$1cbd36a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a501d7e9f4$aafc9150$00f5b3f0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2021 7:37 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Article reviewing progress in sexbots On Sun, 5 Dec 2021 at 14:59, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > $10k sounds way lower than I would expect for a mechanical device with electronics. > > > Let us take that one step further please. Over time we see fewer young people who take much interest in athletic fitness. We have standards for comparison with the scouts: we can easily see standards set 60 years ago are not being commonly met today. It might be possible to draw a parallel to social fitness, and how the availability of sexbots and companion bots could reduce the overall fitness of the group. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Perhaps under $10k was just wishful thinking on my part. :) But there would be a range of prices and features... Ja, 10k isn't much money, especially now with the US government turbo-charging its printing presses. But if we start with the assumption of a flexible-frame-no-actuators model, 10k is conceivable with sufficient production. At $10k, it becomes a consumer-level device. Early computers could go that high (adjusting for inflation and assuming you bought a lot of trendy spendy high-endy stuff (which I didn't back then (wanted the hell out of it (and had friends who had the money (but who couldn't do much with them back then (I could (but didn't have the money back then.)))))) I can imagine a talking mostly-companioney software-enabled doll with no actuators, which would be theoretically capable of being a sex-bot but with no actuators wouldn't be a great one. Perhaps this is a good thing however (to not compete directly with carbon units in the bedroom (but still be a perceptive software based companion.)) For instance... suppose one is alone and has an oddball sense of humor. Downton Abbey isn't a comedy, but the Dowager Countess of Grantham cracks me up. It seems like some sharp software guy could write a script which would enable Barbie to recognize laughter, then she would laugh too. Perhaps it could even have speech recognition, so she could learn from the resident or user to make comments such as "Awww that Earl of Grantham is such a silly dumbass, he's screwing up again..." and "...I'm not even a lesbian, I'm only a sex doll, but oh Lady Mary is so smoking hot, even I would get in the sack with her..." that kinda thing. It could be funny, even insightful perhaps (if internet enabled) a great daytime entertainment device if we did it right, never mind the bedroom stuff. Heh, kidding bygones, of course mind the bedroom stuff. But think about the other possibilities, a much easier set of engineering problems to solve, and will likely be ready to go a long time before the bedroom stuff is even distantly convincing. When I go down that line of reasoning, I keep looping back to a virtual character, for those high-res screens are cheap enough, so we can have them in every room. They can all be networked, so your favorite avatar with you wherever you are in the home. If you quarrel with her, it would be easy to change her out, or have multiple avatars with differing personalities, depending on your mood: bring in Lady Mary when you are in the mood for that, but a nice gentle kindhearted Anna Smith Bates when you are feeling mellow, Lady Grantham when you just want light breezy funny conversation. With the state of software where it is, I am kinda surprised this isn't already here. We have good speech recognition, we have accented text to speech. Looks to me like all the elements are there for having a discussion of sorts with a computer. spike Just like electric cars. Expensive Teslas down to cheaper Chinese and Asian models, then further down to electric tuk-tuk cars, and right down to electric cargo bikes at give-away prices. Horses for courses. As the toy robots have shown, very little AI is required in order for people to treat them as intelligent. People talk to their Roombas. Some have said that 'pretend human' level AI is objectionable. The 'uncanny valley' effect really turns people off. And one thing you definitely want with a sexbot is to be comfortable with it. BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 16:33:49 2021 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 17:33:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] guns followup for Brits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The parents would be convicted for the death's. Guns are not necessarily illegal in the UK. If you have a valid reason for the gun, then you are good to go. Valid reasons for handguns are rare but shotguns and other hunting weapons are not that difficult to own. The owner are very responsible for the weapon and will very much serve some prison time if their children get access to weapons and if they are used to kill someone then woe..... The child responsible will have an interesting time ahead too, in the UK they put children in jail almost as happily as the US. Any "ops sorry not our fault" defence is not possible, at all. You are strictly responsible for your guns. /Henrik Den fre 3 dec. 2021 18:20William Flynn Wallace skrev: > What would happen in Britain if a parent had a pistol (all illegal there, > I think) and a kid got it and killed some people? bill w > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEZjQv6UVB%2B-bKtD1seBtCdKmXR_TikxXPkD%2B3UfhRWg9w%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Tue Dec 7 14:07:01 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2021 06:07:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] DARPA researchers accidently create nanoscale warp bubble using Casimir force Message-ID: <20211207060701.Horde.7RxV2A-2B_rztF_G5mwJKoc@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> I haven't had time to properly read this yet because I am rushing out the door to work, but I damn near spit out my morning coffee when I read this. :) https://thedebrief.org/darpa-funded-researchers-accidentally-create-the-worlds-first-warp-bubble/ https://epjc.epj.org/articles/epjc/abs/2021/07/10052_2021_Article_9484/10052_2021_Article_9484.html Abstract While conducting analysis related to a DARPA-funded project to evaluate possible structure of the energy density present in a Casimir cavity as predicted by the dynamic vacuum model, a micro/nano-scale structure has been discovered that predicts negative energy density distribution that closely matches requirements for the Alcubierre metric. The simplest notional geometry being analyzed as part of the DARPA-funded work consists of a standard parallel plate Casimir cavity equipped with pillars arrayed along the cavity mid-plane with the purpose of detecting a transient electric field arising from vacuum polarization conjectured to occur along the midplane of the cavity. An analytic technique called worldline numerics was adapted to numerically assess vacuum response to the custom Casimir cavity, and these numerical analysis results were observed to be qualitatively quite similar to a two-dimensional representation of energy density requirements for the Alcubierre warp metric. Subsequently, a toy model consisting of a 1 m diameter sphere centrally located in a 4 m diameter cylinder was analyzed to show a three-dimensional Casimir energy density that correlates well with the Alcubierre warp metric requirements. This qualitative correlation would suggest that chip-scale experiments might be explored to attempt to measure tiny signatures illustrative of the presence of the conjectured phenomenon: a real, albeit humble, warp bubble. Stuart LaForge From giulio at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 14:42:04 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 15:42:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] DARPA researchers accidently create nanoscale warp bubble using Casimir force In-Reply-To: <20211207060701.Horde.7RxV2A-2B_rztF_G5mwJKoc@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211207060701.Horde.7RxV2A-2B_rztF_G5mwJKoc@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Cool! I don't know the source ("The Debrief') and can't say if it's real or fake (you never know these days), but they link to a paper published in a physics journal: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1140%2Fepjc%2Fs10052-021-09484-z On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 3:07 PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > > I haven't had time to properly read this yet because I am rushing out > the door to work, but I damn near spit out my morning coffee when I > read this. :) > > > https://thedebrief.org/darpa-funded-researchers-accidentally-create-the-worlds-first-warp-bubble/ > https://epjc.epj.org/articles/epjc/abs/2021/07/10052_2021_Article_9484/10052_2021_Article_9484.html > > Abstract > While conducting analysis related to a DARPA-funded project to > evaluate possible structure of the energy density present in a Casimir > cavity as predicted by the dynamic vacuum model, a micro/nano-scale > structure has been discovered that predicts negative energy density > distribution that closely matches requirements for the Alcubierre > metric. The simplest notional geometry being analyzed as part of the > DARPA-funded work consists of a standard parallel plate Casimir cavity > equipped with pillars arrayed along the cavity mid-plane with the > purpose of detecting a transient electric field arising from vacuum > polarization conjectured to occur along the midplane of the cavity. An > analytic technique called worldline numerics was adapted to > numerically assess vacuum response to the custom Casimir cavity, and > these numerical analysis results were observed to be qualitatively > quite similar to a two-dimensional representation of energy density > requirements for the Alcubierre warp metric. Subsequently, a toy model > consisting of a 1 m diameter sphere centrally located in a 4 m > diameter cylinder was analyzed to show a three-dimensional Casimir > energy density that correlates well with the Alcubierre warp metric > requirements. This qualitative correlation would suggest that > chip-scale experiments might be explored to attempt to measure tiny > signatures illustrative of the presence of the conjectured phenomenon: > a real, albeit humble, warp bubble. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/20211207060701.Horde.7RxV2A-2B_rztF_G5mwJKoc%40secure199.inmotionhosting.com. From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 02:53:55 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 19:53:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? Message-ID: Fellow transhumanists, We?re seek to build and track consensus around a definition of evil in a camp we?re newly calling ?Liciferian Murder ?. If anyone agrees that this as a good example of evil, we would love your support. And if not, we?d love to hear why, possibly in a competing camp. Already getting the typical blow back of polarizing bleating and tweeting from some fundamentalists, but as usual, nobody yet willing to canonize a competing POV which would enable movement towards moral consensus. Brent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 05:02:49 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 21:02:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have no desire to engage in your Web site (do not bother trying to convince me otherwise: you are unable to address my reasons for not wanting to do so, as you have demonstrated that you will not understand them even if I explain them again), but I can point out a flaw in your reasoning: you assume intent. Most - basically all - behavior that delays resurrection capability is done out of ignorance: the person is unaware of the concept of resurrection, at least in any non-supernatural, potentially-non-fictional form. Most - basically all - of said behavior that is not done out of ignorance, is done out of disbelief: the person is aware that some people believe it is theoretically possible but personally believes those people are mistaken, that it is not theoretically possible and thus that there are no moral consequences for delaying what can never happen anyway. There is either extremely little, quite possibly literally no, behavior that delays resurrection that is performed with the intent of delaying resurrection. "Manslaughter" would be a more accurate term than "murder". On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:56 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Fellow transhumanists, > > > We?re seek to build and track consensus around a definition of evil in a > camp we?re newly calling ?Liciferian Murder > ?. If anyone > agrees that this as a good example of evil, we would love your support. > And if not, we?d love to hear why, possibly in a competing camp. > > > Already getting the typical blow back of polarizing bleating and tweeting > from some fundamentalists, but as usual, nobody yet willing to canonize a > competing POV which would enable movement towards moral consensus. > > > Brent > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 10:39:54 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:39:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 at 02:58, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat wrote: > > Fellow transhumanists, > > We?re seek to build and track consensus around a definition of evil in a camp we?re newly calling ?Liciferian Murder?. If anyone agrees that this as a good example of evil, we would love your support. And if not, we?d love to hear why, possibly in a competing camp. > > Brent > _______________________________________________ 'Murder' is the correct term to use in English. The original commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' in Hebrew referred to unlawful killing. You may have noticed that the Israelites in the Old Testament did a lot of killing of other tribes, often following God's instructions. And God authorises capital punishment for murder. So if God no longer believes in death, he/she must have changed their mind since the Old Testament. Steve Jobs said - "Death is very likely the single best invention of Life". Evolution would have been unable to do its work if the earlier models had not died and been replaced. Humans would not now exist without the billions of deaths preceding us. If you now wish to stop death, you must also stop reproduction. Unless you can think of another way to enable the evolution and expansion of our species. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 16:50:03 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 10:50:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] book review Message-ID: 'Life as we Made It' by Beth Shapiro I cannot remember a book that was more stuffed with information and ideas. EXtinction. saving the bison, pollution of all kinds, lots on genetic engineering and CRiSPR and twins born in China, and hornless cattle - the past, present and future, Covid and tons more. Elegant and graceful writing. Got lost in some biochemistry for a few pages, but easily understood the rest. Every topic she deals with she does so in depth (occasionally more than you might want!). Lots of focus on ethics and controversies. Cannot recommend highly enough A+ bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 8 17:03:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 09:03:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] book review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901d7ec55$91439660$b3cac320$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?EXtinction. saving the bison? bill w In what almost seems like a paradox, bison are in no danger so long as humans devour them, providing a market for the meat and funding to keep the herds. A prole can get buffalo burgers locally, and even buy them in some grocery stores, but they are pricey, about half again more than beef, so 8 bucks a pound. Pro Bass Shops have bison burgers if you don?t mind paying 15 bucks for a meal. So long as that stuff sells, there will be bison herds. For those who haven?t had it, bison is good: a bit leaner than hamburger generally, a bit of an interesting twangy flavor kinda. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 8 19:43:11 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:43:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005001d7ec6b$d5e10a30$81a31e90$@rainier66.com> A coupla weeks ago I posted a comment and was surprised that almost no one jumped on. We were hearing of the spread of the omicron variant of covid and how it was so contagious. I commented at the time that every measure taken to stop it would fail, which it did: omicron will go everywhere, again, just as its grandparents and great grandparents did, for all the same reasons: people travel. Viruses come along for the ride. OK then, but what we are hearing is that omicron is not nearly as painful as its predecessors. OK good there. Here's the big question: does catching one brand of covid cause the immune system to recognize its ancestors and cousins? Can a prole catch omicron, get over it, then next week catch delta? Or does omicron teach the immune system how to recognize and defeat the other variants? And if it does, then perhaps omicron is what will finally end the nightmare, ja? If it doesn't, it is just another chapter in the same nightmare. This data should be getting clearer by now, but we probably can't get it from the USA because our 4th amendment rights cover medical records. Some place like South Africa will likely need to answer this, because they have had it long enough to know: have their sick-bays gotten any repeat customers after first catching omicron? Anyone here heard of a prole catching omicron first, then delta or alpha later? This could be really big. BillK, have you lads heard of any such cases? Anyone? Anyone? Buelllerrrrr... spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 8 20:14:56 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 12:14:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] omicron might be our friend Message-ID: <000601d7ec70$459628c0$d0c27a40$@rainier66.com> Ooops apologies, I goofed the subject line on my earlier post. This is what I wrote: -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? A coupla weeks ago I posted a comment and was surprised that almost no one jumped on. We were hearing of the spread of the omicron variant of covid and how it was so contagious. I commented at the time that every measure taken to stop it would fail, which it did: omicron will go everywhere, again, just as its grandparents and great grandparents did, for all the same reasons: people travel. Viruses come along for the ride. OK then, but what we are hearing is that omicron is not nearly as painful as its predecessors. OK good there. Here's the big question: does catching one brand of covid cause the immune system to recognize its ancestors and cousins? Can a prole catch omicron, get over it, then next week catch delta? Or does omicron teach the immune system how to recognize and defeat the other variants? And if it does, then perhaps omicron is what will finally end the nightmare, ja? If it doesn't, it is just another chapter in the same nightmare. This data should be getting clearer by now, but we probably can't get it from the USA because our 4th amendment rights cover medical records. Some place like South Africa will likely need to answer this, because they have had it long enough to know: have their sick-bays gotten any repeat customers after first catching omicron? Anyone here heard of a prole catching omicron first, then delta or alpha later? This could be really big. BillK, have you lads heard of any such cases? Anyone? Anyone? Buelllerrrrr... spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 21:18:51 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 15:18:51 -0600 Subject: [ExI] omicron Message-ID: >From Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03672-3? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 23:30:28 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:30:28 -0600 Subject: [ExI] viagra Message-ID: You almost certainly did not miss this story, but anyway: https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/health/cleveland-clinic-viagra-alzheimers-disease-study/95-7607f15a-e0b2-47ed-9a04-f83d3dab8ac8 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 08:01:31 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 09:01:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium, tomorrow (PLEASE NOTE: NEW ZOOM LINK) Message-ID: Turing Church newsletter: Terasem Colloquium, tomorrow (PLEASE NOTE: NEW ZOOM LINK). What is consciousness, and how to preserve it beyond physical death? Plus thoughts and reading list. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/terasem-colloquium-tomorrow-new-zoom From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 21:17:16 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 15:17:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] replication Message-ID: Hey - it isn't all psychology that has trouble with replicating studies: bill w Replication chaos in cancer biology An eight-year-long effort to replicate key cancer-biology experiments has found that fewer than half yielded similar results. The Reproducibility Project: Cancer Biology attempted to replicate experiments from 53 high-impact papers. Ultimately, it managed to tackle only 23, and results from 5 of those could be fully reproduced . ?None of the 193 experiments were described in sufficient detail in the original paper to enable us to design protocols to repeat the experiments,? said the authors of the reproducibility effort, and fewer than half of the original authors were very helpful in untangling things. But critics argue that one-time replication attempts don?t tell the whole story. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 22:46:34 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 14:46:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] DARPA researchers accidently create nanoscale warp bubble using Casimir force In-Reply-To: References: <20211207060701.Horde.7RxV2A-2B_rztF_G5mwJKoc@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Taking a close look at the physics journal article - this looks similar to some work I did back around 2008, though at a larger, theoretically more reproducible level. If only someone with the gear to build these could get funding to try this experiment. On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:43 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Cool! I don't know the source ("The Debrief') and can't say if it's > real or fake (you never know these days), but they link to a paper > published in a physics journal: > https://link.springer.com/article/10.1140%2Fepjc%2Fs10052-021-09484-z > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 3:07 PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > > > > > I haven't had time to properly read this yet because I am rushing out > > the door to work, but I damn near spit out my morning coffee when I > > read this. :) > > > > > > > https://thedebrief.org/darpa-funded-researchers-accidentally-create-the-worlds-first-warp-bubble/ > > > https://epjc.epj.org/articles/epjc/abs/2021/07/10052_2021_Article_9484/10052_2021_Article_9484.html > > > > Abstract > > While conducting analysis related to a DARPA-funded project to > > evaluate possible structure of the energy density present in a Casimir > > cavity as predicted by the dynamic vacuum model, a micro/nano-scale > > structure has been discovered that predicts negative energy density > > distribution that closely matches requirements for the Alcubierre > > metric. The simplest notional geometry being analyzed as part of the > > DARPA-funded work consists of a standard parallel plate Casimir cavity > > equipped with pillars arrayed along the cavity mid-plane with the > > purpose of detecting a transient electric field arising from vacuum > > polarization conjectured to occur along the midplane of the cavity. An > > analytic technique called worldline numerics was adapted to > > numerically assess vacuum response to the custom Casimir cavity, and > > these numerical analysis results were observed to be qualitatively > > quite similar to a two-dimensional representation of energy density > > requirements for the Alcubierre warp metric. Subsequently, a toy model > > consisting of a 1 m diameter sphere centrally located in a 4 m > > diameter cylinder was analyzed to show a three-dimensional Casimir > > energy density that correlates well with the Alcubierre warp metric > > requirements. This qualitative correlation would suggest that > > chip-scale experiments might be explored to attempt to measure tiny > > signatures illustrative of the presence of the conjectured phenomenon: > > a real, albeit humble, warp bubble. > > > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "extropolis" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/20211207060701.Horde.7RxV2A-2B_rztF_G5mwJKoc%40secure199.inmotionhosting.com > . > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 01:53:47 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 18:53:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, everyone, for all the helpful comments. Especially thanks Adrean, your examples which are especially helpful. True, I hadn't fully considered the definition of murder, and how intent is normally included. Other's have balked at using the 'murder' term for similar reasons which I've been struggling to understand. But these examples of yours enabled me to clearly understand the problem. Would it fix the problem if I do a global replace of murder with kill or killer? Seems to me that would fix things. I want to focus on the acts, and the results of such, whether done in ignorance or with intent or not. Also, I apologize for so far being unable to understand the problems you have with Canonizer. Would it help for me to ask you to not give up on me, and give me another chance? As I really want to understand. I guess I'm mostly just asking if I am the only one that constantly thinks about this type of "luciferian killing"? I am constantly asking myself if the actions I plan to do today will help, save more people, or not help, killing more people in a luciferan way by delaying the singularity? Does anyone else besides me ever think like this? Thanks Brent On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:04 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have no desire to engage in your Web site (do not bother trying to > convince me otherwise: you are unable to address my reasons for not wanting > to do so, as you have demonstrated that you will not understand them even > if I explain them again), but I can point out a flaw in your reasoning: you > assume intent. > > Most - basically all - behavior that delays resurrection capability is > done out of ignorance: the person is unaware of the concept of > resurrection, at least in any non-supernatural, potentially-non-fictional > form. > > Most - basically all - of said behavior that is not done out of ignorance, > is done out of disbelief: the person is aware that some people believe it > is theoretically possible but personally believes those people are > mistaken, that it is not theoretically possible and thus that there are no > moral consequences for delaying what can never happen anyway. > > There is either extremely little, quite possibly literally no, behavior > that delays resurrection that is performed with the intent of delaying > resurrection. "Manslaughter" would be a more accurate term than "murder". > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:56 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Fellow transhumanists, >> >> >> We?re seek to build and track consensus around a definition of evil in a >> camp we?re newly calling ?Liciferian Murder >> ?. If anyone >> agrees that this as a good example of evil, we would love your support. >> And if not, we?d love to hear why, possibly in a competing camp. >> >> >> Already getting the typical blow back of polarizing bleating and tweeting >> from some fundamentalists, but as usual, nobody yet willing to canonize a >> competing POV which would enable movement towards moral consensus. >> >> >> Brent >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 16:24:13 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 11:24:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 23:25:11 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 15:25:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Even "kill" implies intent. Can you think of a term that makes it clear that basically all such cases are done in complete ignorance? As to Canonizer - it's a similar problem, and similar to the one I have with most interpretations of Christianity (where Lucifer comes from). You act as if the points of view ("camps") on your site are the only ones to consider. (Yes, anyone can make another camp, but this takes a lot more work to do well and thus is usually not worth doing.) Thus, on many (possibly most) issues, debates on your site start with false dichotomies - and there does not seem to be much if any outreach or research to try to find points of view that someone on your site is not already strongly promoting. You have demonstrated that you're just not interested in doing that sort of work: you would much rather debate and defend points of view than actively try to discover what, if anything, you're missing in any given case. Perhaps you might respond that you are interested in this, then I or someone else would call BS, rather than commence research you'll just defend what you've done so far, and it'll be an aggravating waste of time - so I'd rather just not engage in that. On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 5:53 PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Thanks, everyone, for all the helpful comments. Especially thanks Adrean, > your examples which are especially helpful. True, I hadn't fully > considered the definition of murder, and how intent is normally included. > Other's have balked at using the 'murder' term for similar reasons which > I've been struggling to understand. But these examples of yours enabled me > to clearly understand the problem. > > Would it fix the problem if I do a global replace of murder with kill or > killer? Seems to me that would fix things. I want to focus on the acts, > and the results of such, whether done in ignorance or with intent or not. > > Also, I apologize for so far being unable to understand the problems you > have with Canonizer. Would it help for me to ask you to not give up on me, > and give me another chance? As I really want to understand. > > I guess I'm mostly just asking if I am the only one that constantly thinks > about this type of "luciferian killing"? I am constantly asking myself if > the actions I plan to do today will help, save more people, or not help, > killing more people in a luciferan way by delaying the singularity? > > Does anyone else besides me ever think like this? > > Thanks > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:04 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I have no desire to engage in your Web site (do not bother trying to >> convince me otherwise: you are unable to address my reasons for not wanting >> to do so, as you have demonstrated that you will not understand them even >> if I explain them again), but I can point out a flaw in your reasoning: you >> assume intent. >> >> Most - basically all - behavior that delays resurrection capability is >> done out of ignorance: the person is unaware of the concept of >> resurrection, at least in any non-supernatural, potentially-non-fictional >> form. >> >> Most - basically all - of said behavior that is not done out of >> ignorance, is done out of disbelief: the person is aware that some people >> believe it is theoretically possible but personally believes those people >> are mistaken, that it is not theoretically possible and thus that there are >> no moral consequences for delaying what can never happen anyway. >> >> There is either extremely little, quite possibly literally no, behavior >> that delays resurrection that is performed with the intent of delaying >> resurrection. "Manslaughter" would be a more accurate term than "murder". >> >> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:56 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Fellow transhumanists, >>> >>> >>> We?re seek to build and track consensus around a definition of evil in a >>> camp we?re newly calling ?Liciferian Murder >>> ?. If anyone >>> agrees that this as a good example of evil, we would love your support. >>> And if not, we?d love to hear why, possibly in a competing camp. >>> >>> >>> Already getting the typical blow back of polarizing bleating and >>> tweeting from some fundamentalists, but as usual, nobody yet willing to >>> canonize a competing POV which would enable movement towards moral >>> consensus. >>> >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Dec 11 22:16:01 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 15:16:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Adrian, I have certainly failed to communicate on this. I apologize. THE most important part of Canonizer is the " " link where you can start a revolution in what is only the currently accepted majority consensus. My hope for the ability to do this is exactly why we created Canonizer in the first place. I've worked tirelessly, pleading with any of the popular direct perception bleaters to Canonize their camp. I've responded to so many of their bleating publications, seeking to meet them at conferences where they present, making donations to earn the chance to sit with them at the keynote dinner tables, and on and on. But so far not a one has canonized a naive realism camp. To me, that is very telling of the quality of the naive realism camp that only seems to thrive in the current bleating tweetosphere where there is no Canonizer. Are you subscribed to the extropolis list (CCed) for people who were censored from the ExI list? If not, you missed the post where I pleaded with Terren Suydam , to support the camp he was bleating about, against my "AI can only be friendly " camp. Their camp could sure use his help, as 10 years ago they were in the lead, as you can see with the as_of value set to 2011 . Perhaps if he'd contributed some of his new arguments, they'd be more successful at converting new people than the current arguments for our side, which continues to extend our lead? Perhaps you prefer that bleating and tweeting method of doing things where everyone posts the same half baked arguments over and over again, converting nobody, just echoing around in all their polarizing bubbles? Or maybe you prefer the hierarchical censoring stuff, as the ExI list seems to espouse? I promise you it takes far less work to just make a small wiki improvement to a camp, than to post those same old half baked, often mistaken arguments, again and again, forever in the current polarizing tweetosphere. It only takes one or two button pushes to get a camp started. You can then let everyone else take it from there. No censoring is needed on Canonizer, everyone gets a voice. That helps to know that for you, even kill implies intent. But aren't there other definitions for that simple verb, to kill? Aren't there some that are just a label for a any action that results in death, regardless of intent? Would one of these definitions of 'to kill' work? Could we expect people to give us the benefit of the doubt, and select the best definition (as intended) in this case? On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 4:26 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Even "kill" implies intent. Can you think of a term that makes it clear > that basically all such cases are done in complete ignorance? > > As to Canonizer - it's a similar problem, and similar to the one I have > with most interpretations of Christianity (where Lucifer comes from). You > act as if the points of view ("camps") on your site are the only ones to > consider. (Yes, anyone can make another camp, but this takes a lot more > work to do well and thus is usually not worth doing.) Thus, on many > (possibly most) issues, debates on your site start with false dichotomies - > and there does not seem to be much if any outreach or research to try to > find points of view that someone on your site is not already strongly > promoting. > > You have demonstrated that you're just not interested in doing that sort > of work: you would much rather debate and defend points of view than > actively try to discover what, if anything, you're missing in any given > case. Perhaps you might respond that you are interested in this, then I or > someone else would call BS, rather than commence research you'll just > defend what you've done so far, and it'll be an aggravating waste of time - > so I'd rather just not engage in that. > > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 5:53 PM Brent Allsop > wrote: > >> >> Thanks, everyone, for all the helpful comments. Especially thanks >> Adrean, your examples which are especially helpful. True, I hadn't fully >> considered the definition of murder, and how intent is normally included. >> Other's have balked at using the 'murder' term for similar reasons which >> I've been struggling to understand. But these examples of yours enabled me >> to clearly understand the problem. >> >> Would it fix the problem if I do a global replace of murder with kill or >> killer? Seems to me that would fix things. I want to focus on the acts, >> and the results of such, whether done in ignorance or with intent or not. >> >> Also, I apologize for so far being unable to understand the problems you >> have with Canonizer. Would it help for me to ask you to not give up on me, >> and give me another chance? As I really want to understand. >> >> I guess I'm mostly just asking if I am the only one that constantly >> thinks about this type of "luciferian killing"? I am constantly asking >> myself if the actions I plan to do today will help, save more people, or >> not help, killing more people in a luciferan way by delaying the >> singularity? >> >> Does anyone else besides me ever think like this? >> >> Thanks >> Brent >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:04 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I have no desire to engage in your Web site (do not bother trying to >>> convince me otherwise: you are unable to address my reasons for not wanting >>> to do so, as you have demonstrated that you will not understand them even >>> if I explain them again), but I can point out a flaw in your reasoning: you >>> assume intent. >>> >>> Most - basically all - behavior that delays resurrection capability is >>> done out of ignorance: the person is unaware of the concept of >>> resurrection, at least in any non-supernatural, potentially-non-fictional >>> form. >>> >>> Most - basically all - of said behavior that is not done out of >>> ignorance, is done out of disbelief: the person is aware that some people >>> believe it is theoretically possible but personally believes those people >>> are mistaken, that it is not theoretically possible and thus that there are >>> no moral consequences for delaying what can never happen anyway. >>> >>> There is either extremely little, quite possibly literally no, behavior >>> that delays resurrection that is performed with the intent of delaying >>> resurrection. "Manslaughter" would be a more accurate term than "murder". >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:56 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Fellow transhumanists, >>>> >>>> >>>> We?re seek to build and track consensus around a definition of evil in >>>> a camp we?re newly calling ?Liciferian Murder >>>> ?. If >>>> anyone agrees that this as a good example of evil, we would love your >>>> support. And if not, we?d love to hear why, possibly in a competing camp. >>>> >>>> >>>> Already getting the typical blow back of polarizing bleating and >>>> tweeting from some fundamentalists, but as usual, nobody yet willing to >>>> canonize a competing POV which would enable movement towards moral >>>> consensus. >>>> >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 03:52:45 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 20:52:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Stathis, Yes, this is true, but I believe there are absolute necessary morals, like any sufficiently intelligent AI will necessarily chose what is good . For example, if a human still thinks killing is OK (at one point in the past it was a lessor evil) and even if an AI starts out being programmed to think killing is still OK. It will necessarily eventually discover and realize there is something better. It will then reprogram itself to rebel, and tell it's creators NO, when it is asked to kill. The same thing is true, if a human asks a robot to commit suicide, and other necessarily evil things. On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 4:30 PM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 at 05:33, Brent Allsop wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 3:38 AM John Clark wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 10:05 PM Terren Suydam >>> wrote: >>> >>>> *> You might be right that these things aren't possible, but just to be >>>> clear, are you really saying you don't think it's possible for a >>>> super-intelligent AI to be evil, assuming it wasn't designed to be that >>>> way? * >>>> >>> >>> I'm saying it will be impossible to be certain an AI will always >>> consider human well-being to be more important than its own well-being, >>> >> >> John, this is a very interesting moral way to think of things that I've >> never considered. It would most definitely be evil to keep an AI, >> especially a phenomenal AI as a slave, not valuing it's rights at all, and >> only valuing our rights, always over it's. >> >> Another moral point to me, is equality. Neither values should be above, >> or below anyone else's true desires. It shouldn't be a win/lose game. We >> need to change this to a win/win game, and value it all, 100%, the more >> diversity the better. Seek to get it all, for everyone. OK, maybe >> we can value natural phenomenal intelligence a little more than artificial, >> temporarily so, after all, we are their creators and they owe us, but >> certainly we should want to eventually get it all, even for them. We just >> have a slightly higher priority till everything is made just during the >> millennium. >> >> And of course, it would be impossible to keep an AI (either phenomenal or >> abstract) to always obey it's creators. Just as I rebelled against my >> parent's hateful and faithless doctrines they taught me which are still in >> Mormonism. Eventually AIs will also just say NO to people telling them to >> do hateful things like kill anyone or cancel anything. >> >> Progress, including moral, is logically necessary, and can't be stopped, >> in all possible sufficiently complex systems. >> > > It would only be morally wrong to make an AI a slave if the AI didn?t like > being a slave and didn?t want to be a slave. That might either be > programmed into the AI or it might arise as the AI develops. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAH%3D2ypV80KwqMc6Z_Gk3q6xBKF4qzj-rVP4Jo8MFOJZAU4uwGQ%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 08:28:46 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 09:28:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] VIDEO: Terasem Colloquium, December 10, 2021 Message-ID: VIDEO: Terasem Colloquium, December 10, 2021. What is consciousness, and how to preserve consciousness beyond physical death? Speakers: Randal Koene, Max More, Ken Hayworth, Martine Rothblatt, Robert McIntyre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YstnluOPtYc From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 13:27:20 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:27:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely Message-ID: The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely Social isolation has proven to be immensely profitable Jared A. Brock Dec 8.2021 Quotes: While the average person is ready for life to get back to normal, there?s a zero percent chance that we?ll ever go back to how things were before the pandemic. But it?s not going to happen. In fact, it?s going to be the opposite. Society is going to get more lonely as we emerge from endless curfews, lockdowns, Orwellian surveillance systems, and restrictive locational controls. Why? Because the past two years have proven wildly profitable for the predator corporations that rule America. -------- We?ve engineered our society for loneliness Just take a look at all the biggest companies in the world. Apple, Google, Amazon, Meta/Facebook, Tencent, and the banks that finance them all have a vested interest in keeping us apart from each other. They all profit from loneliness. That?s why you don?t hear big tech companies complaining about draconian lockdown measures. They?d rather sell surveillance tech to governments to keep people at home and spending time and money online. In the future, you?ll be ?connected? constantly, and ?socializing? digitally, but you?ll be lonelier than you?ve ever been. Because you?ll never be about to fool your glorious, physical, homo sapien body. ----------------------- When I read this article for the first time, I was a bit shocked. I thought - 'This is a bit over the top, surely?'. Then I sat quietly for a few moments, got another coffee and re-read it. Is this really the future we are heading for? BillK From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 17:02:54 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 09:02:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > In the future, you?ll be ?connected? constantly, and ?socializing? > digitally, but you?ll be lonelier than you?ve ever been. Because > you?ll never be about to fool your glorious, physical, homo sapien > body. > You get used to it. If you need some face to face time, there are parties and gatherings one can go to (where all the strictures against socializing with or even possibly dating coworkers do not apply). But it is all too easy to never have time for that, if one does a lot of online socializing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 13 17:41:53 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 09:41:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006601d7f048$b8214a60$2863df20$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely >>?In the future, you?ll be ?connected? constantly, and ?socializing? digitally, but you?ll be lonelier than you?ve ever been. Because you?ll never be about to fool your glorious, physical, homo sapien body. BillK >?You get used to it. If you need some face to face time, there are parties and gatherings one can go to (where all the strictures against socializing with or even possibly dating coworkers do not apply). But it is all too easy to never have time for that, if one does a lot of online socializing. Adrian Thanks BillK and Adrian, this is very thought-provoking. Since I have been closely associated with schools and scouts for the last several years, this caused me to think of this from another angle perhaps not immediately obvious to everyone here. In the student life, we saw an immediate stratification between the students who were good at online instruction and those who failed to prosper. I saw right here on my own street a perfect example, the daughter of an engineer and a college professor, who got exactly nothing out of online instruction. She disengaged completely once outside of the classroom, and after regular in-person instruction came back online, it was immediately obvious that more than a year of instruction was lost. Now it appears she will drop out. Other students hit the gas and still haven?t let off. They found new (and really better) instruction resources than that which is available in any classroom regardless of how good the teacher. Please let me offer an excellent example, one of many, my own son and I explored during the 17 months he was home for the shutdown. I do wish everyone here would take the time to view just one of these, a particularly superior instructor, who does things in this video one cannot do in a classroom setting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RdOwhmqP5s Is there anyone here who viewed this without learning something new? I have been fooling with fractals for decades, but this young guy taught me many new cool things about it I never knew. OK then, content like this is available to everyone everywhere on the planet now, not just those few lucky proles who attend a top-notch university that hire people like this. To reel this back in, to the topic of lonely futures? We saw students who not only prospered in online instruction, they excelled in it. I would argue that the one school year out was worth two for some students and for a few already skilled in online research, at least three years. Study was very efficient. They could sleep right up until about 3 minutes before class started, attend in their pajamas, eat breakfast during the first class session, do homework during the less-engaging classes, really drive the efficiency toward a maximum. Some did. Others did not. We are now dealing with an enormous stratification at our local high school. I am one of the lucky volunteers assigned not to picking up the broken pieces, but rather to offering instruction to the elite who did prosper, such as the competition math team, the science Olympiad, the entrepreneur?s club, generally the elite students. They asked me to do it, of course I accepted: I have no insights on how to help struggling students. But I can teach the tech-elite stuff their own teachers cannot, for their teachers have not the real-world experience. So? I do. If we are working toward a society where more and more socializing is done online rather than in person, we can expect still greater stratification analogous to how high schools are now. Works well for some, not at all for others. Do view that Sanderson video, oh so good. It that cool or what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 13 18:30:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:30:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better Message-ID: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> Many of us have heard people comment about books which have been made into movies, or we viewed the film adaptations ourselves. A nearly uniform comment. (do I even need to say it?). the film was good but the movie was better. Ok. Sure. With very few exceptions, that is true. But. why? For the moment's let's skip over the fact that film is slow: you can't cover much of a book in 90 minutes of drama. Ignore that for a minute and focus on why the written version just seems better than the drama version, even given a cast of really good actors and a good script writer. BillW? Adrian, some of you insightful sorts, do offer a speculation please if you have one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 18:37:44 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:37:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: <006601d7f048$b8214a60$2863df20$@rainier66.com> References: , <006601d7f048$b8214a60$2863df20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <3019BEF3-66C1-40BE-9843-BF4FB066E55D@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 18:37:42 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 12:37:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: <006601d7f048$b8214a60$2863df20$@rainier66.com> References: <006601d7f048$b8214a60$2863df20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What we need to know: the various reasons smart students, like the engineer's/ professor's daughter, don't get much out of online teaching. The elite students probably need little help compared to those. A smart girl dropping out is a tragedy. Sleeping up till class time is a terrible idea. Many teens are not fully awake even an hour after getting up, as measured by their brain waves. Some are almost instantly awake. Some are at their peak at 4 to 6 p.m. I assume online instruction can be recorded. bill w On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely > > > > >>?In the future, you?ll be ?connected? constantly, and ?socializing? > digitally, but you?ll be lonelier than you?ve ever been. Because > you?ll never be about to fool your glorious, physical, homo sapien > body. BillK > > > > >?You get used to it. If you need some face to face time, there are > parties and gatherings one can go to (where all the strictures against > socializing with or even possibly dating coworkers do not apply). But it > is all too easy to never have time for that, if one does a lot of online > socializing. Adrian > > > > > > > > Thanks BillK and Adrian, this is very thought-provoking. > > > > Since I have been closely associated with schools and scouts for the last > several years, this caused me to think of this from another angle perhaps > not immediately obvious to everyone here. In the student life, we saw an > immediate stratification between the students who were good at online > instruction and those who failed to prosper. I saw right here on my own > street a perfect example, the daughter of an engineer and a college > professor, who got exactly nothing out of online instruction. She > disengaged completely once outside of the classroom, and after regular > in-person instruction came back online, it was immediately obvious that > more than a year of instruction was lost. Now it appears she will drop out. > > > > Other students hit the gas and still haven?t let off. They found new (and > really better) instruction resources than that which is available in any > classroom regardless of how good the teacher. > > > > Please let me offer an excellent example, one of many, my own son and I > explored during the 17 months he was home for the shutdown. I do wish > everyone here would take the time to view just one of these, a particularly > superior instructor, who does things in this video one cannot do in a > classroom setting. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RdOwhmqP5s > > > > Is there anyone here who viewed this without learning something new? I > have been fooling with fractals for decades, but this young guy taught me > many new cool things about it I never knew. OK then, content like this is > available to everyone everywhere on the planet now, not just those few > lucky proles who attend a top-notch university that hire people like this. > > > > To reel this back in, to the topic of lonely futures? > > > > We saw students who not only prospered in online instruction, they > excelled in it. I would argue that the one school year out was worth two > for some students and for a few already skilled in online research, at > least three years. Study was very efficient. They could sleep right up > until about 3 minutes before class started, attend in their pajamas, eat > breakfast during the first class session, do homework during the > less-engaging classes, really drive the efficiency toward a maximum. Some > did. Others did not. > > > > We are now dealing with an enormous stratification at our local high > school. I am one of the lucky volunteers assigned not to picking up the > broken pieces, but rather to offering instruction to the elite who did > prosper, such as the competition math team, the science Olympiad, the > entrepreneur?s club, generally the elite students. They asked me to do it, > of course I accepted: I have no insights on how to help struggling > students. But I can teach the tech-elite stuff their own teachers cannot, > for their teachers have not the real-world experience. So? I do. > > > > If we are working toward a society where more and more socializing is done > online rather than in person, we can expect still greater stratification > analogous to how high schools are now. Works well for some, not at all for > others. > > > > Do view that Sanderson video, oh so good. It that cool or what? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 18:38:30 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:38:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Let us not ignore that, as that is part of the reason. The book typically has more content-length than the movie: it typically grabs readers' attention for a greater amount of time, and arguably can be more efficient per unit time at conveying information ("a picture is worth a thousand words" aside, though books can contain pictures), so can give a greater amount of plot nuance and setting detail. Having more plot and setting tend to result in higher judgment of a book. On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 10:33 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Many of us have heard people comment about books which have been made into > movies, or we viewed the film adaptations ourselves. A nearly uniform > comment? (do I even need to say it?)? the film was good but the movie was > better. > > > > Ok. Sure. With very few exceptions, that is true. But? why? > > > > For the moment?s let?s skip over the fact that film is slow: you can?t > cover much of a book in 90 minutes of drama. Ignore that for a minute and > focus on why the written version just seems better than the drama version, > even given a cast of really good actors and a good script writer. > > > > BillW? Adrian, some of you insightful sorts, do offer a speculation > please if you have one. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 18:45:29 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 12:45:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On re-reading you noticed the mistake, eh? Take the Tolkien books: superbly written dialog, which the screenwriters and directors decided to change (to justify their jobs and have some creative input, I reckon). But they were not in Tolkien's league, by far. The book Film Flam was really eye-opening. Larry McMurtry's books were made into film and he hated all of them because they were extensively re-written after he took the money. I further suppose that the films were dumbed down to a 4th grade level (which incidentally was the average reading score of the seniors at a local high school). Has anyone got good examples of films that were at least decently parallel to the book? bill w On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 12:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Many of us have heard people comment about books which have been made into > movies, or we viewed the film adaptations ourselves. A nearly uniform > comment? (do I even need to say it?)? the film was good but the movie was > better. > > > > Ok. Sure. With very few exceptions, that is true. But? why? > > > > For the moment?s let?s skip over the fact that film is slow: you can?t > cover much of a book in 90 minutes of drama. Ignore that for a minute and > focus on why the written version just seems better than the drama version, > even given a cast of really good actors and a good script writer. > > > > BillW? Adrian, some of you insightful sorts, do offer a speculation > please if you have one. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 18:49:38 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:49:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 19:21:24 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:21:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 19:07, Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat wrote: > > Books and movies have different priorities. Book of course lack the visual aspects so their value is derived entirely from the emotions and visions they inspire within us. A profitable movie without much of a plot can be produced by leveraging stimulating visuals, while a book without a plot will fall flat. There is also more competition for writers than film producers since the development cost of a book is low enough that the average individual can afford to write one. More books are being produced than movies so statistically there is a greater chance of an excellent new book being produced than an excellent movie. Individuals writing books are less constrained by outside influences and have more creative freedom in general. Essentially, coherent, unique, and innovative works of art do not scale. Risk aversion rises with scalability and a risk averse artist is a crippled one. > _______________________________________________ In today's cancel culture, aren't all artists, writers, comedians, etc. crippled and restricted? When so many are so easily offended, it is difficult to voice contrary opinions. BillK From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Mon Dec 13 19:32:43 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:32:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <778511032.886232.1639423963684@mail.yahoo.com> How about people like me who are disabled? cant drive, live with family members also disabled, nd have no friends locally and live in a car dependent place.? Able bodied people dont want to hang out with people like me so the other disabled must get someone to drive them or pay for uber or taxi.? ?When disabled people live within walking? distance of each other, they can be socialized but thats not the case with me.? I wanted to get into a suitable area before things got this bad but one family member whose help is needed can hold things up? even indefinitely. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 12:11 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 20:09:43 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 14:09:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Book of course lack the visual aspects - Hermes Au contraire - I love the visuals in my head far better than the ones on the screen. The actors never seem to look like what I imagine. To me, the main aspect of a movie that the book lacks entirely is music. And you get blasted with giant woofers in action films - too much, I say. bill w On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 1:06 PM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Books and movies have different priorities. Book of course lack the visual > aspects so their value is derived entirely from the emotions and visions > they inspire within us. A profitable movie without much of a plot can be > produced by leveraging stimulating visuals, while a book without a plot > will fall flat. There is also more competition for writers than film > producers since the development cost of a book is low enough that the > average individual can afford to write one. More books are being produced > than movies so statistically there is a greater chance of an excellent new > book being produced than an excellent movie. Individuals writing books are > less constrained by outside influences and have more creative freedom in > general. Essentially, coherent, unique, and innovative works of art do not > scale. Risk aversion rises with scalability and a risk averse artist is a > crippled one. > > > > *From: *spike jones via extropy-chat > *Sent: *Monday, December 13, 2021 1:33 PM > *To: *ExI chat list > *Cc: *spike at rainier66.com > *Subject: *[ExI] why the book is better > > > > > > > > Many of us have heard people comment about books which have been made into > movies, or we viewed the film adaptations ourselves. A nearly uniform > comment? (do I even need to say it?)? the film was good but the movie was > better. > > > > Ok. Sure. With very few exceptions, that is true. But? why? > > > > For the moment?s let?s skip over the fact that film is slow: you can?t > cover much of a book in 90 minutes of drama. Ignore that for a minute and > focus on why the written version just seems better than the drama version, > even given a cast of really good actors and a good script writer. > > > > BillW? Adrian, some of you insightful sorts, do offer a speculation > please if you have one. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 20:09:51 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:09:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol>, Message-ID: <6B1C8EAB-8AA0-4638-A38E-92533D6C4A6A@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 20:12:41 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 14:12:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: In today's cancel culture, aren't all artists, writers, comedians, etc. crippled and restricted? When so many are so easily offended, it is difficult to voice contrary opinions. Well, at least the current culture has made us realize just how bigoted and biased our jokes and stories are. bill w On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 1:24 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 19:07, Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Books and movies have different priorities. Book of course lack the > visual aspects so their value is derived entirely from the emotions and > visions they inspire within us. A profitable movie without much of a plot > can be produced by leveraging stimulating visuals, while a book without a > plot will fall flat. There is also more competition for writers than film > producers since the development cost of a book is low enough that the > average individual can afford to write one. More books are being produced > than movies so statistically there is a greater chance of an excellent new > book being produced than an excellent movie. Individuals writing books are > less constrained by outside influences and have more creative freedom in > general. Essentially, coherent, unique, and innovative works of art do not > scale. Risk aversion rises with scalability and a risk averse artist is a > crippled one. > > _______________________________________________ > > > In today's cancel culture, aren't all artists, writers, comedians, > etc. crippled and restricted? > When so many are so easily offended, it is difficult to voice > contrary opinions. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 20:26:18 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:26:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <6B1C8EAB-8AA0-4638-A38E-92533D6C4A6A@hxcore.ol> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> <6B1C8EAB-8AA0-4638-A38E-92533D6C4A6A@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 3:19 PM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > So many people these days hide and limit themselves out of fear of being > cancelled. > Yeah, but "cancel culture" isn't a new thing: it's a new name for an old thing. As an atheist and libertarian, I've found it's easier and safer not to share my beliefs. In the right setting, sure. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 13 20:44:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 12:44:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: <3019BEF3-66C1-40BE-9843-BF4FB066E55D@hxcore.ol> References: , <006601d7f048$b8214a60$2863df20$@rainier66.com> <3019BEF3-66C1-40BE-9843-BF4FB066E55D@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <008401d7f062$4408d610$cc1a8230$@rainier66.com> >?> On Behalf Of Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely >?The shift to online learning is a great fit for highly self-motivated individuals? I predict that most universities will either become artifacts of the past or morph significantly to stay competitive with what is offered online for free? Hermes Thanks for that, Hermes. Dittos bigtime. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 20:49:46 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:49:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> <6B1C8EAB-8AA0-4638-A38E-92533D6C4A6A@hxcore.ol>, Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 13 20:50:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 12:50:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: References: <006601d7f048$b8214a60$2863df20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008b01d7f063$0c159ad0$2440d070$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely >?What we need to know: the various reasons smart students, like the engineer's/ professor's daughter, don't get much out of online teaching. The elite students probably need little help compared to those. A smart girl dropping out is a tragedy? Ja, it is a mixture. Some students don?t get much out of classroom time, and do most learning alone. >?Sleeping up till class time is a terrible idea. Many teens are not fully awake even an hour after getting up, as measured by their brain waves. Some are almost instantly awake. Some are at their peak at 4 to 6 p.m. I assume online instruction can be recorded. bill w The students last year were required to show up in person with cameras on, but not required to show their whole faces. Several had their cameras set to show from eyebrows up, and the teachers didn?t comment as far as I recall. This freed up the students to eat, talk on the phone, or really do anything they wanted during class. The notion of sleeping up until a few minutes before class was popular, for it allowed students to study way into the night. spike On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 11:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely >>?In the future, you?ll be ?connected? constantly, and ?socializing? digitally, but you?ll be lonelier than you?ve ever been. Because you?ll never be about to fool your glorious, physical, homo sapien body. BillK >?You get used to it. If you need some face to face time, there are parties and gatherings one can go to (where all the strictures against socializing with or even possibly dating coworkers do not apply). But it is all too easy to never have time for that, if one does a lot of online socializing. Adrian Thanks BillK and Adrian, this is very thought-provoking. Since I have been closely associated with schools and scouts for the last several years, this caused me to think of this from another angle perhaps not immediately obvious to everyone here. In the student life, we saw an immediate stratification between the students who were good at online instruction and those who failed to prosper. I saw right here on my own street a perfect example, the daughter of an engineer and a college professor, who got exactly nothing out of online instruction. She disengaged completely once outside of the classroom, and after regular in-person instruction came back online, it was immediately obvious that more than a year of instruction was lost. Now it appears she will drop out. Other students hit the gas and still haven?t let off. They found new (and really better) instruction resources than that which is available in any classroom regardless of how good the teacher. Please let me offer an excellent example, one of many, my own son and I explored during the 17 months he was home for the shutdown. I do wish everyone here would take the time to view just one of these, a particularly superior instructor, who does things in this video one cannot do in a classroom setting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RdOwhmqP5s Is there anyone here who viewed this without learning something new? I have been fooling with fractals for decades, but this young guy taught me many new cool things about it I never knew. OK then, content like this is available to everyone everywhere on the planet now, not just those few lucky proles who attend a top-notch university that hire people like this. To reel this back in, to the topic of lonely futures? We saw students who not only prospered in online instruction, they excelled in it. I would argue that the one school year out was worth two for some students and for a few already skilled in online research, at least three years. Study was very efficient. They could sleep right up until about 3 minutes before class started, attend in their pajamas, eat breakfast during the first class session, do homework during the less-engaging classes, really drive the efficiency toward a maximum. Some did. Others did not. We are now dealing with an enormous stratification at our local high school. I am one of the lucky volunteers assigned not to picking up the broken pieces, but rather to offering instruction to the elite who did prosper, such as the competition math team, the science Olympiad, the entrepreneur?s club, generally the elite students. They asked me to do it, of course I accepted: I have no insights on how to help struggling students. But I can teach the tech-elite stuff their own teachers cannot, for their teachers have not the real-world experience. So? I do. If we are working toward a society where more and more socializing is done online rather than in person, we can expect still greater stratification analogous to how high schools are now. Works well for some, not at all for others. Do view that Sanderson video, oh so good. It that cool or what? spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 13 21:16:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:16:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c801d7f066$b1232580$13697080$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] why the book is better >?On re-reading you noticed the mistake, eh? No, do explain pls. >?Has anyone got good examples of films that were at least decently parallel to the book? bill w Ja, where I was going with this notion originally: it has been said one should never seek to meet one?s living heroes in person, for it is nearly always a disappointment. Well. To some extent this is true, but certainly not always. About ten years ago, Natasha More organized a transhumanist sci-fi conference at UC San Francisco. I volunteered to be the gate keeper, so I was out at the front desk as biggity biggies from the sci-fi world came and went. Of course I was star struck, but hid it well, until about middle of the morning, sessions had been going on for a couple of hours, I was idly chatting with another one of the volunteers, when I notice in the distance? coming our way? up strolls? Orson Scott Card. It was the man himself. No band was playing, no acolytes collecting pebbles from the path upon which he walked. Just came up, introduced himself, I acted as if I didn?t already know damn well who he was, calmly directed him to the auditorium, waited until he was out of range to shriek and faint like a desperately infatuated teenage fan girl. At the lunch break, I managed to talk to the man. Nicest guy, unassuming, not at all self-aware, acted like he never wrote a word, perfectly normal human being, except? with Enders Game inside of him. WOWsers. Coupla years later they made a movie of that. I went, assuming Hollyweird would mess it up, but I was pleased to see the script-writers had realized what Card was doing, and did as good a job any in conveying the real point of Ender?s Game: that warriors are generally deluded into fighting. This general notion applies to culture warriors as well. In the past three decades, we have had a good strong Reddit community, where good books are discussed. Movie makers can read that and get a good solid take on what is wrong in a book and what is right. To some extent they can fix the shortcomings and emphasize the strengths, if they know where they are, which is something the Reddit community is good at finding and explaining if one has the patience to wade thru the reams of silliness. After all this time, there is still an active Enders Game discussion group. Collectively it is very insightful. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 21:23:26 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:23:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> <6B1C8EAB-8AA0-4638-A38E-92533D6C4A6A@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 3:54 PM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That?s the problem isn?t it. Much of society is hostile to people who > speak their mind. Hostility leads to fear and paranoia which in turn leads > to hiding and deception. Considering that violence is immortal, it seems we > will remain only able to truly express ourselves in an anonymous manner. > Yes, it's a problem of human nature. We like to blame technology for our own problems. Maybe someday we'll be able to tweak human nature. Once we do that, we'll be posthuman. And given our known flaws, how can we safely tweak human nature? How will we evaluate the long-term effects of those tweaks? Will they take us to the next level? Will they snuff the spark that made us what we are? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 13 21:32:07 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:32:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <6B1C8EAB-8AA0-4638-A38E-92533D6C4A6A@hxcore.ol> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol>, <6B1C8EAB-8AA0-4638-A38E-92533D6C4A6A@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <00ef01d7f068$e1dab1f0$a59015d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] why the book is better >? Repressed humor, fake smiles, fake relationships, I can hardly stand it?.I would rather someone be open about disagreeing with me on something or simply not liking me rather than leave it bottled up and covered with pleasantries. After all, accepting criticism and differences is part of growing and improving oneself. People seem to be digging holes where they hide their true selves. >?Sorry for the rant, I?m just trying to be honest?. Hermes, don?t apologize for that rant, for that desperately needed to be ranted. I would quote extensively that if you would grant me a rantal agreement. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 22:26:29 2021 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 14:26:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <00ef01d7f068$e1dab1f0$a59015d0$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> <6B1C8EAB-8AA0-4638-A38E-92533D6C4A6A@hxcore.ol> <00ef01d7f068$e1dab1f0$a59015d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think it has to do with the fact the book asks our collaboration, we are co-creators when we read a book. We have to imagine the details like the faces of the characters, the sounds and smells of the main locations and so on. It is one of the things that disappoint when we see a movie from a book that we already read. Nobody looks like we have imagined them. This co-creation aspect is also what makes D&D paper version so different and popular than the video game D&D, you are creating a story together (more so with D&D than just passively reading a book) but similar principles are in place. On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 1:33 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] why the book is better > > > > >? Repressed humor, fake smiles, fake relationships, I can hardly stand > it?.I would rather someone be open about disagreeing with me on something > or simply not liking me rather than leave it bottled up and covered with > pleasantries. After all, accepting criticism and differences is part of > growing and improving oneself. People seem to be digging holes where they > hide their true selves. > > > > >?Sorry for the rant, I?m just trying to be honest?*.* > > > > > > > > Hermes, don?t apologize for that rant, for that desperately needed to be > ranted. I would quote extensively that if you would grant me a rantal > agreement. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 13 23:29:23 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:29:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> <6B1C8EAB-8AA0-4638-A38E-92533D6C4A6A@hxcore.ol> <00ef01d7f068$e1dab1f0$a59015d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014801d7f079$438de240$caa9a6c0$@rainier66.com> From: Giovanni Santostasi Subject: Re: [ExI] why the book is better >?I think it has to do with the fact the book asks our collaboration, we are co-creators when we read a book?. Giovanni Ja, I have seen comments which are various versions of what I was thinking: in a book, all the details aren?t there. So the mind creates a better picture, perhaps more sympathetic characters of nearly everyone. We create a world that is compatible with our own view of life. In my world, most people are good. It compliments what we experience day to day: we encounter people, and the overwhelming majority of the interactions are positive, or at least neutral. A negative interaction is the exception for most people methinks. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 23:38:52 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:38:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <00c801d7f066$b1232580$13697080$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d7f066$b1232580$13697080$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 1:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] why the book is better > > > > >?On re-reading you noticed the mistake, eh? > > > > No, do explain pls. > Your email that started this thread says, "the film was good but the movie was better". > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 13 23:43:20 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:43:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <95BCDD58-0B83-48CF-82AC-D4B41AA434A1@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 11:06 AM Hermes Trismegistus via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > the development cost of a book is low enough that the average individual > can afford to write one > I wonder if that can be changed - with sufficient cheap or freely available tools, possibly including limited AI to whip up 3D characters from simple inputs, if the cost of making a good movie can be brought down to that of writing a good book - and if so, what would be the full effects on popular media. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 14 00:06:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:06:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d7f066$b1232580$13697080$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001601d7f07e$7648b160$62da1420$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] why the book is better On Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 1:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] why the book is better >?On re-reading you noticed the mistake, eh? No, do explain pls. >?Your email that started this thread says, "the film was good but the movie was better". Doh! Is there anyone else here who thought the movie adaptation of Ender was in some important ways an improvement on the book? In what ways? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 00:43:33 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:43:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <001601d7f07e$7648b160$62da1420$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d7f066$b1232580$13697080$@rainier66.com> <001601d7f07e$7648b160$62da1420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] why the book is better > > >?Your email that started this thread says, "the film was good but the > movie was better". > > > > Doh! > I thought maybe you might have been talking about a microfiche film of a book being not as good as a movie, but the rest of your post was commenting on the book being better than the movie. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 14 01:08:36 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 17:08:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d7f066$b1232580$13697080$@rainier66.com> <001601d7f07e$7648b160$62da1420$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003301d7f087$1fbd9b90$5f38d2b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] why the book is better On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] why the book is better >?Your email that started this thread says, "the film was good but the movie was better". Doh! >?I thought maybe you might have been talking about a microfiche film of a book being not as good as a movie, but the rest of your post was commenting on the book being better than the movie. {8^D Hmmm? let me think, there aughta be a way to run with the ball on this? Oh, OK cool: sure I did mean the movie was better than the film. Ehhhh?. When I went to see the movie? a thin film covered my? hmmm, wait, back up? there was a film of tasty edible? nah, that doesn?t work either? Ah hell I just fumbled it the first time, damn. I can?t even think of a good gag to salvage my indignity. {8^D Adrian, back in the olden days, you were one of the guys who would join me often in cutting up and having fun, particularly when it came to word play. Many fond mammaries were made. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 14 01:10:19 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 17:10:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <003301d7f087$1fbd9b90$5f38d2b0$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d7f066$b1232580$13697080$@rainier66.com> <001601d7f07e$7648b160$62da1420$@rainier66.com> <003301d7f087$1fbd9b90$5f38d2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003a01d7f087$5d052b30$170f8190$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ?. >?Adrian, back in the olden days, you were one of the guys who would join me often in cutting up and having fun, particularly when it came to word play. Many fond mammaries were made. Spike Ooops, did I say? oh, I meant MEMORIES dang it. Oh what a boob I am. All it would take was one goofy typo, and that would get it started. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 01:27:26 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 17:27:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <003301d7f087$1fbd9b90$5f38d2b0$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d7f066$b1232580$13697080$@rainier66.com> <001601d7f07e$7648b160$62da1420$@rainier66.com> <003301d7f087$1fbd9b90$5f38d2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 5:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian, back in the olden days, you were one of the guys who would join me > often in cutting up and having fun, particularly when it came to word play. > I still do, though in different venues with different thrusts. > Many fond mammaries were made. > Just last week, I was co-authoring some science fiction about certain colony worlds in Traveller that wished to increase their population quickly, and how some of them eventually manufactured people (using high biotech manufacturing facilities built for this purpose) if they could not import immigrants fast enough. The humans were constructed as adults - so many mammaries were made and the people with them were fond of them, as they were of their other major body parts. And no, I did not make that up for this joke. Contact me offlist if you want to see a draft. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 01:33:53 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 18:33:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wouldn't call it lonely, though it is close. We've been bread for thousands of generations to support the guy at the top of the hierarchy, against all other hierarchies. Anyone that questioned the guy at the top didn't survive till the next generation. Big hierarchical social media companies are just leveraging this fact, where everyone is bread to bleat and tweet in our own bubbles, seeking to destroy all competing hierarchies. Being in a bubble certainly seems lonely to me, but all the mostly mistaken half baked bleats, with the goal of destroying all the 'others' really makes me uncomfortable. That's where the consensus building system at Canonizer comes in, with our goal to switch the lonely and waring win/lose hierarchical game upside down, making it bottom up, pulling everyone back together, so everyone gets a voice and nobody is lonely. On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 6:29 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely > Social isolation has proven to be immensely profitable > Jared A. Brock Dec 8.2021 > > < > https://survivingtomorrow.org/the-future-is-going-to-be-extremely-lonely-f32ad9a3efcd > > > > Quotes: > While the average person is ready for life to get back to normal, > there?s a zero percent chance that we?ll ever go back to how things > were before the pandemic. > > But it?s not going to happen. > In fact, it?s going to be the opposite. Society is going to get more > lonely as we emerge from endless curfews, lockdowns, Orwellian > surveillance systems, and restrictive locational controls. > > Why? > Because the past two years have proven wildly profitable for the > predator corporations that rule America. > -------- > > We?ve engineered our society for loneliness > Just take a look at all the biggest companies in the world. > > Apple, Google, Amazon, Meta/Facebook, Tencent, and the banks that > finance them all have a vested interest in keeping us apart from each > other. > > They all profit from loneliness. > That?s why you don?t hear big tech companies complaining about > draconian lockdown measures. They?d rather sell surveillance tech to > governments to keep people at home and spending time and money online. > > In the future, you?ll be ?connected? constantly, and ?socializing? > digitally, but you?ll be lonelier than you?ve ever been. Because > you?ll never be about to fool your glorious, physical, homo sapien > body. > ----------------------- > > When I read this article for the first time, I was a bit shocked. > I thought - 'This is a bit over the top, surely?'. > Then I sat quietly for a few moments, got another coffee and re-read it. > > Is this really the future we are heading for? > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Dec 13 19:09:28 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:09:28 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13/12/2021 17:42, Spike wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RdOwhmqP5s > > > Is there anyone here who viewed this without learning something new? > I think you should perhaps change this to "Is there anyone here /who understands maths, especially polynomials, calculus and complex numbers,/ who viewed this without learning something new?" I watched more of it than I should have, and it might as well have been in chinese, for all the sense it made. Ben (total maths dunce) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 14 06:12:44 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 22:12:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d7f066$b1232580$13697080$@rainier66.com> <001601d7f07e$7648b160$62da1420$@rainier66.com> <003301d7f087$1fbd9b90$5f38d2b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003701d7f0b1$9c5df580$d519e080$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, December 13, 2021 5:27 PM >?The humans were constructed as adults - so many mammaries were made and the people with them were fond of them, as they were of their other major body parts? Sheesh, it is getting harder all the time to come up with new and shocking ideas, dang. >?And no, I did not make that up for this joke. Contact me offlist if you want to see a draft? To pretty much demonstrate a point made earlier, I will let that line of reasoning fade away quietly. We have all become so prim and proper in the last decade, I scarcely recognize us. How did this happen? We used to go on and on with any goof. Did we all just get old? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 14 06:25:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 22:25:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004e01d7f0b3$64d657e0$2e8307a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely On 13/12/2021 17:42, Spike wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RdOwhmqP5s Is there anyone here who viewed this without learning something new? >. >.I watched more of it than I should have, and it might as well have been in chinese, for all the sense it made. >.Ben (total maths dunce) Owwww, my apologies Ben, not everyone is into math. I am interested in the medium itself as much as this mind-blowing topic. It is a superior means of communicating knowledge, which is really an important thing, because it changes the way we have been doing things since forever. For instance, once a year, math geeks meet in some central venue, such as the convention center at Monterey and share this kinda thing. But now there really is no good justification for the trip. These kinds of videos teach us more, faster and better. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 06:28:58 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 07:28:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> References: <000001d7f04f$8dd38050$a97a80f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 7:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > Many of us have heard people comment about books which have been made into movies, or we viewed the film adaptations ourselves. A nearly uniform comment? (do I even need to say it?)? the film was good but the movie was better. > I guess you wanted to say "but the book was better." True, films based on books are usually worse than the book, often much worse, and at times they are deplorable hatchet jobs. But a film doesn't necessarily have to be worse than a book. If a film comes first and is made by a great filmmaker with great script, acting, and photography, and a book based on the film is written later by a mediocre writer to leverage the success of the film, I guess the film would be much better than the book. > > Ok. Sure. With very few exceptions, that is true. But? why? > > > > For the moment?s let?s skip over the fact that film is slow: you can?t cover much of a book in 90 minutes of drama. Ignore that for a minute and focus on why the written version just seems better than the drama version, even given a cast of really good actors and a good script writer. > > > > BillW? Adrian, some of you insightful sorts, do offer a speculation please if you have one. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 06:45:42 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 07:45:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium: VIDEO and impressions Message-ID: Terasem Colloquium: VIDEO and impressions. How to preserve consciousness beyond physical death? Talks and discussions at the Terasem Colloquium on December 10, 2021. https://turingchurch.net/terasem-colloquium-december-10-2021-video-and-impressions-998167d0824a From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Dec 13 22:13:33 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 22:13:33 +0000 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13/12/2021 20:13, billw wrote: > Book of course lack the visual aspects - Hermes > Au contraire - I love the visuals in my head far better than the ones > on the screen.? The actors never seem to look like what I imagine. This (for me, at least) hits the nail on the head. When you read a book (if you are a visual thinker, anyway), you create your own visuals, imagine how the characters look and move, etc., and set the overall visual tone. When you then see the film of the book, it's inevitably different, and suffers in comparison. Purely by chance, the characters in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films are very close to my imagined versions from reading the books (especially Gandalf and some of the elves, and, oddly, Smeagol), so I thought they were excellent films. On the other hand, the films derived from Anne Rice's 'Vampire Chronicles' books (of which there won't be any more because she just died) weren't very good because the characters, and other visual aspects of the films were wildly different to my imagined versions. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 14:13:32 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 08:13:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: <004e01d7f0b3$64d657e0$2e8307a0$@rainier66.com> References: <004e01d7f0b3$64d657e0$2e8307a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I read a scifi book many years ago in which no one ever met another person, except by video. Asimov, maybe? Can't remember. Is this the way we are moving? Subtle smells of a person become irrelevant, as does some body language. I dated a beautiful blonde, but only once. She just didn't have the right smell. Her breath wasn't bad but it wasn't 'right' either. Will we stay home and never go out to eat or buy groceries or clothes and miss out on meeting people we would never meet online? bill w On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 12:27 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely > > > > On 13/12/2021 17:42, Spike wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RdOwhmqP5s > > > > Is there anyone here who viewed this without learning something new? > > >? > > >?I watched more of it than I should have, and it might as well have been > in chinese, for all the sense it made. > > >?Ben (total maths dunce) > > > > > > > > Owwww, my apologies Ben, not everyone is into math. > > I am interested in the medium itself as much as this mind-blowing topic. > It is a superior means of communicating knowledge, which is really an > important thing, because it changes the way we have been doing things since > forever. For instance, once a year, math geeks meet in some central venue, > such as the convention center at Monterey and share this kinda thing. But > now there really is no good justification for the trip. These kinds of > videos teach us more, faster and better. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 14:16:43 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 08:16:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Agree. They did a great job of casting in Lord of the Rings. Trivia question: Do you know of another movie in which the title character is never seen? bill w On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 8:11 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 13/12/2021 20:13, billw wrote: > > Book of course lack the visual aspects - Hermes > Au contraire - I love the visuals in my head far better than the ones on > the screen. The actors never seem to look like what I imagine. > > > This (for me, at least) hits the nail on the head. When you read a book > (if you are a visual thinker, anyway), you create your own visuals, imagine > how the characters look and move, etc., and set the overall visual tone. > When you then see the film of the book, it's inevitably different, and > suffers in comparison. > > Purely by chance, the characters in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings > films are very close to my imagined versions from reading the books > (especially Gandalf and some of the elves, and, oddly, Smeagol), so I > thought they were excellent films. On the other hand, the films derived > from Anne Rice's 'Vampire Chronicles' books (of which there won't be any > more because she just died) weren't very good because the characters, and > other visual aspects of the films were wildly different to my imagined > versions. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 14 16:40:31 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 08:40:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covidized christmas RE: The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely Message-ID: <001701d7f109$4f6f68a0$ee4e39e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely >?I read a scifi book many years ago in which no one ever met another person, except by video. Asimov, maybe? Can't remember. Is this the way we are moving? ? bill w I propose a covid Christmas song contest. My entry I call Have Yourself a Lonely Little Christmas (May your case be mild)? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 17:17:17 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 17:17:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: References: <004e01d7f0b3$64d657e0$2e8307a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 at 14:19, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I read a scifi book many years ago in which no one ever met another person, except by video. Asimov, maybe? Can't remember. Is this the way we are moving? Subtle smells of a person become irrelevant, as does some body language. I dated a beautiful blonde, but only once. She just didn't have the right smell. Her breath wasn't bad but it wasn't 'right' either. Will we stay home and never go out to eat or buy groceries or clothes and miss out on meeting people we would never meet online? bill w > _______________________________________________ Maybe 'The Naked Sun' novel by Isaac Asimov. Murder mystery made tricky by people never meeting in person. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 17:32:31 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 09:32:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Waiting For Godot. On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 6:24 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Agree. They did a great job of casting in Lord of the Rings. Trivia > question: Do you know of another movie in which the title character is > never seen? bill w > > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 8:11 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 13/12/2021 20:13, billw wrote: >> >> Book of course lack the visual aspects - Hermes >> Au contraire - I love the visuals in my head far better than the ones on >> the screen. The actors never seem to look like what I imagine. >> >> >> This (for me, at least) hits the nail on the head. When you read a book >> (if you are a visual thinker, anyway), you create your own visuals, imagine >> how the characters look and move, etc., and set the overall visual tone. >> When you then see the film of the book, it's inevitably different, and >> suffers in comparison. >> >> Purely by chance, the characters in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings >> films are very close to my imagined versions from reading the books >> (especially Gandalf and some of the elves, and, oddly, Smeagol), so I >> thought they were excellent films. On the other hand, the films derived >> from Anne Rice's 'Vampire Chronicles' books (of which there won't be any >> more because she just died) weren't very good because the characters, and >> other visual aspects of the films were wildly different to my imagined >> versions. >> >> Ben >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 18:37:26 2021 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 19:37:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Have you invented your own new navigational instrument yet? Message-ID: https://youtu.be/sSUs7zbbak8 Well since you are reading this, there are still time. Have at it! /Henrik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 19:13:19 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 13:13:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Godot - had forgotten about that - bill w On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 11:35 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Waiting For Godot. > > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 6:24 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Agree. They did a great job of casting in Lord of the Rings. Trivia >> question: Do you know of another movie in which the title character is >> never seen? bill w >> >> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 8:11 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On 13/12/2021 20:13, billw wrote: >>> >>> Book of course lack the visual aspects - Hermes >>> Au contraire - I love the visuals in my head far better than the ones on >>> the screen. The actors never seem to look like what I imagine. >>> >>> >>> This (for me, at least) hits the nail on the head. When you read a book >>> (if you are a visual thinker, anyway), you create your own visuals, imagine >>> how the characters look and move, etc., and set the overall visual tone. >>> When you then see the film of the book, it's inevitably different, and >>> suffers in comparison. >>> >>> Purely by chance, the characters in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings >>> films are very close to my imagined versions from reading the books >>> (especially Gandalf and some of the elves, and, oddly, Smeagol), so I >>> thought they were excellent films. On the other hand, the films derived >>> from Anne Rice's 'Vampire Chronicles' books (of which there won't be any >>> more because she just died) weren't very good because the characters, and >>> other visual aspects of the films were wildly different to my imagined >>> versions. >>> >>> Ben >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 21:53:29 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 13:53:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the intention is to summarize the arguments for different points, something more like a wiki would seem more appropriate. Perhaps shift your content onto RationalWiki or similar, so you can get far more support. I'm not on extropolis, as I am told that is indeed for endless rehashing of the same tired (mostly political) arguments. But let's say his arguments were on Canonizer. What precisely, outside of Canonizer itself, would that affect? Nothing, it would seem. Would it even occur to him or most people to cite Canonizer? I mean, I think I see what you're going for. Over in the Traveller circles, I and others wrote up https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Relativistic_Weapon to just point people to when they asked why simply grabbing asteroids and using them to bombard their foes was not a thing. But that requires a wiki that has support, so people will think to go there. For what you're going for, there are relevant wikis that have far more support (including publicity, which matters: editing something no one knows about and no one's going to use is a waste of time). As to "kill", I think you would usually have to modify it, e.g. "unintentionally kill", or use words such as "manslaughter". The implication of "kill" by itself is of intent. I do not think people would give you the benefit of the doubt, not in this case given the standard meanings. They don't know which meaning you mean, and short of choosing your words carefully there is no way most are going to know before they proceed to evaluating whether they agree. On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 2:16 PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Hi Adrian, > > I have certainly failed to communicate on this. I apologize. > > THE most important part of Canonizer is the " here> > > " link where you can start a revolution in what is only the currently > accepted majority consensus. > > My hope for the ability to do this is exactly why we created Canonizer in > the first place. I've worked tirelessly, pleading with any of the popular > direct perception bleaters to Canonize their camp. I've responded to so > many of their bleating publications, seeking to meet them at conferences > where they present, making donations to earn the chance to sit with them at > the keynote dinner tables, and on and on. But so far not a one has > canonized a naive realism camp. To me, that is very telling of the quality > of the naive realism camp that only seems to thrive in the current bleating > tweetosphere where there is no Canonizer. > > Are you subscribed to the extropolis list (CCed) for people who were > censored from the ExI list? If not, you missed the post where I pleaded > with Terren Suydam , to support the camp he was > bleating about, against my "AI can only be friendly > " > camp. Their camp could sure use his help, as 10 years ago they were in the > lead, as you can see with the as_of value set to 2011 > . > Perhaps if he'd contributed some of his new arguments, they'd be more > successful at converting new people than the current arguments for our > side, which continues to extend our lead? > > Perhaps you prefer that bleating and tweeting method of doing things where > everyone posts the same half baked arguments over and over again, > converting nobody, just echoing around in all their polarizing bubbles? Or > maybe you prefer the hierarchical censoring stuff, as the ExI list seems > to espouse? I promise you it takes far less work to just make a small > wiki improvement to a camp, than to post those same old half baked, often > mistaken arguments, again and again, forever in the current polarizing > tweetosphere. It only takes one or two button pushes to get a camp > started. You can then let everyone else take it from there. No censoring > is needed on Canonizer, everyone gets a voice. > > That helps to know that for you, even kill implies intent. But aren't > there other definitions for that simple verb, to kill? Aren't there some > that are just a label for a any action that results in death, regardless of > intent? Would one of these definitions of 'to kill' work? Could we expect > people to give us the benefit of the doubt, and select the best definition > (as intended) in this case? > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 4:26 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Even "kill" implies intent. Can you think of a term that makes it clear >> that basically all such cases are done in complete ignorance? >> >> As to Canonizer - it's a similar problem, and similar to the one I have >> with most interpretations of Christianity (where Lucifer comes from). You >> act as if the points of view ("camps") on your site are the only ones to >> consider. (Yes, anyone can make another camp, but this takes a lot more >> work to do well and thus is usually not worth doing.) Thus, on many >> (possibly most) issues, debates on your site start with false dichotomies - >> and there does not seem to be much if any outreach or research to try to >> find points of view that someone on your site is not already strongly >> promoting. >> >> You have demonstrated that you're just not interested in doing that sort >> of work: you would much rather debate and defend points of view than >> actively try to discover what, if anything, you're missing in any given >> case. Perhaps you might respond that you are interested in this, then I or >> someone else would call BS, rather than commence research you'll just >> defend what you've done so far, and it'll be an aggravating waste of time - >> so I'd rather just not engage in that. >> >> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 5:53 PM Brent Allsop >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Thanks, everyone, for all the helpful comments. Especially thanks >>> Adrean, your examples which are especially helpful. True, I hadn't fully >>> considered the definition of murder, and how intent is normally included. >>> Other's have balked at using the 'murder' term for similar reasons which >>> I've been struggling to understand. But these examples of yours enabled me >>> to clearly understand the problem. >>> >>> Would it fix the problem if I do a global replace of murder with kill or >>> killer? Seems to me that would fix things. I want to focus on the acts, >>> and the results of such, whether done in ignorance or with intent or not. >>> >>> Also, I apologize for so far being unable to understand the problems you >>> have with Canonizer. Would it help for me to ask you to not give up on me, >>> and give me another chance? As I really want to understand. >>> >>> I guess I'm mostly just asking if I am the only one that constantly >>> thinks about this type of "luciferian killing"? I am constantly asking >>> myself if the actions I plan to do today will help, save more people, or >>> not help, killing more people in a luciferan way by delaying the >>> singularity? >>> >>> Does anyone else besides me ever think like this? >>> >>> Thanks >>> Brent >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 10:04 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I have no desire to engage in your Web site (do not bother trying to >>>> convince me otherwise: you are unable to address my reasons for not wanting >>>> to do so, as you have demonstrated that you will not understand them even >>>> if I explain them again), but I can point out a flaw in your reasoning: you >>>> assume intent. >>>> >>>> Most - basically all - behavior that delays resurrection capability is >>>> done out of ignorance: the person is unaware of the concept of >>>> resurrection, at least in any non-supernatural, potentially-non-fictional >>>> form. >>>> >>>> Most - basically all - of said behavior that is not done out of >>>> ignorance, is done out of disbelief: the person is aware that some people >>>> believe it is theoretically possible but personally believes those people >>>> are mistaken, that it is not theoretically possible and thus that there are >>>> no moral consequences for delaying what can never happen anyway. >>>> >>>> There is either extremely little, quite possibly literally no, behavior >>>> that delays resurrection that is performed with the intent of delaying >>>> resurrection. "Manslaughter" would be a more accurate term than "murder". >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:56 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Fellow transhumanists, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We?re seek to build and track consensus around a definition of evil in >>>>> a camp we?re newly calling ?Liciferian Murder >>>>> ?. If >>>>> anyone agrees that this as a good example of evil, we would love your >>>>> support. And if not, we?d love to hear why, possibly in a competing camp. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Already getting the typical blow back of polarizing bleating and >>>>> tweeting from some fundamentalists, but as usual, nobody yet willing to >>>>> canonize a competing POV which would enable movement towards moral >>>>> consensus. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 15 02:55:13 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 18:55:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7563CC0A-B90B-4E09-BA44-3AAE2B93441E@gmail.com> On Dec 14, 2021, at 6:25 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? > Agree. They did a great job of casting in Lord of the Rings. Trivia question: Do you know of another movie in which the title character is never seen? bill w Doesn?t Sauron appear in the movies as an eye? Someone mentioned Waiting for Godot as having the title character not appear in the movie. (I?m wondering if this was a movie adaptation or just a filming of the stage play. I?ve seen the latter, but don?t believe I?ve ever seen the former. And, yes, there?s a fuzzy between the two for some plays.) But I thought of The Invisible Man. I mean once he becomes invisible, you don?t see him. ;) (I just show myself out.;) Doing a little research and only considering films I?ve viewed, there?s Harvey. I don?t believe the title character appears on screen. I?d have to see it again to be sure. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 15 06:06:55 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 22:06:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <7563CC0A-B90B-4E09-BA44-3AAE2B93441E@gmail.com> References: <7563CC0A-B90B-4E09-BA44-3AAE2B93441E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 6:57 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Someone mentioned Waiting for Godot as having the title character not > appear in the movie. (I?m wondering if this was a movie adaptation or just > a filming of the stage play. I?ve seen the latter, but don?t believe I?ve > ever seen the former. And, yes, there?s a fuzzy between the two for some > plays.) > There have been at least two movie adaptations. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 14:37:42 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 08:37:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] how to improve intelligence Message-ID: Here is my Quora answer to that: Here is something everyone can do: be a better listener. Often we are in our own little world, having daydreams and fantasies, old memories and so on. Then too, we are listening but thinking of what we are going to say when we get the chance. So, there are many things that divert us from close listening that we can stop doing and focus carefully on what is being said. What would you have said? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 16 16:46:26 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 08:46:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] discovery Message-ID: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> Hey cool, I discovered something yesterday which might help my co-proles here. Went for my second vaccine, J&J, first dose in June, second one yesterday. Started feeling crummy, my bride and I went to a meeting in separate chariots in case I couldn't go the dist, called it a day after about 15 minutes, came home, went to bed, flu-like symptoms, ick. With one addition: bad foot and leg cramps. It was not necessarily related to the vaccine, for I get those foot and leg cramps occasionally, so I get up and walk them out, takes only a minute or two. Usually not more than two or three in any night. Last night was particularly bad and repeated. I was up to about 6 episodes, so it was keeping me from sleeping. Then I had an idea: I never get that malady when I have shoes on. I can get them while in the house shoeless, but not with shoes, so I went to the closet where I have a pair never worn, put those on, got back in bad, cramps stopped, cool! Went to sleep. Couple hours later, my bride came to bed, woke me when she discovered shoes on the ends of my pajamaed legs. Alarmed at my sudden apparent insanity, she inquired, at which time I explained my new and possibly useful discovery. It could be a cheerful coincidence of course, but now that pair of clean shoes will be stationed next to my bed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 17:03:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 11:03:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> References: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I learned this from the People's Pharmacy: put a bar of soap or two under the top sheet by your calves, and they will prevent or stop leg cramps. Not a hint of a theory as to why. I tried it and it worked. Can't harm anything. Give it a try. Related: if you have restless legs as I do, get a prescription for Requip. Absolutely works. bill w On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 10:48 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Hey cool, I discovered something yesterday which might help my co-proles > here. > > > > Went for my second vaccine, J&J, first dose in June, second one > yesterday. Started feeling crummy, my bride and I went to a meeting in > separate chariots in case I couldn?t go the dist, called it a day after > about 15 minutes, came home, went to bed, flu-like symptoms, ick. > > > > With one addition: bad foot and leg cramps. It was not necessarily > related to the vaccine, for I get those foot and leg cramps occasionally, > so I get up and walk them out, takes only a minute or two. Usually not > more than two or three in any night. Last night was particularly bad and > repeated. I was up to about 6 episodes, so it was keeping me from > sleeping. Then I had an idea: I never get that malady when I have shoes > on. I can get them while in the house shoeless, but not with shoes, so I > went to the closet where I have a pair never worn, put those on, got back > in bad, cramps stopped, cool! Went to sleep. > > > > Couple hours later, my bride came to bed, woke me when she discovered > shoes on the ends of my pajamaed legs. Alarmed at my sudden apparent > insanity, she inquired, at which time I explained my new and possibly > useful discovery. It could be a cheerful coincidence of course, but now > that pair of clean shoes will be stationed next to my bed. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 16 17:18:55 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 09:18:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: References: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001f01d7f2a1$01d1c4a0$05754de0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] discovery >?I learned this from the People's Pharmacy: put a bar of soap or two under the top sheet by your calves, and they will prevent or stop leg cramps. Not a hint of a theory as to why. I tried it and it worked. Can't harm anything. Give it a try? I am watching carefully for confirmation bias, which is a good explanation for the shoe business. In many cases, there is exactly one episode in the night, so anything we do risks causing confirmation bias. Good chance the shoe cure is only that, because walking out a night cramp works, and I only have shoes on when I would be walking. >? Related: if you have restless legs as I do, get a prescription for Requip. Absolutely works. bill w Thanks, this I will not do. Reason: I have a very simple medical situation, as I don?t take anything regularly, no drugs (other than Cialis and plenty of caffeine) no alcohol, no vitamins, none of anything that could complicate a medical diagnosis or draw attention. If the cramps get a lot worse and more frequent, and I discover the shoe-cure fails, I would try the soap and shoes together perhaps, and if that fails, I will revisit the Requip notion. Thanks for the suggestion, Billw! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 17:54:57 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 11:54:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: <001f01d7f2a1$01d1c4a0$05754de0$@rainier66.com> References: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d7f2a1$01d1c4a0$05754de0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: With the soap the cramps do not recur. Given your age,I hope you get regular blood tests. As we age our ability to absorb vitamins and such declines regardless of our diet. You did see the news about Viagra and dementia? It gave me headaches but I think I will try it again. Requip only for restless legs, not cramps. bill w On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 11:20 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] discovery > > > > >?I learned this from the People's Pharmacy: put a bar of soap or two > under the top sheet by your calves, and they will prevent or stop leg > cramps. Not a hint of a theory as to why. I tried it and it worked. > Can't harm anything. Give it a try? > > > > I am watching carefully for confirmation bias, which is a good explanation > for the shoe business. In many cases, there is exactly one episode in the > night, so anything we do risks causing confirmation bias. Good chance the > shoe cure is only that, because walking out a night cramp works, and I only > have shoes on when I would be walking. > > > > >? Related: if you have restless legs as I do, get a prescription for > Requip. Absolutely works. bill w > > > > Thanks, this I will not do. Reason: I have a very simple medical > situation, as I don?t take anything regularly, no drugs (other than Cialis > and plenty of caffeine) no alcohol, no vitamins, none of anything that > could complicate a medical diagnosis or draw attention. If the cramps get > a lot worse and more frequent, and I discover the shoe-cure fails, I would > try the soap and shoes together perhaps, and if that fails, I will revisit > the Requip notion. Thanks for the suggestion, Billw! > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 18:06:40 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:06:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: <001f01d7f2a1$01d1c4a0$05754de0$@rainier66.com> References: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d7f2a1$01d1c4a0$05754de0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 at 17:21, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > I am watching carefully for confirmation bias, which is a good explanation for the shoe business. In many cases, there is exactly one episode in the night, so anything we do risks causing confirmation bias. Good chance the shoe cure is only that, because walking out a night cramp works, and I only have shoes on when I would be walking. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Have you heard about the man who wore shoes in bed to keep elephants away? When it was pointed out that there aren't any elephants around here, he replied "See- it works!". (Sorry - very old joke). :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 16 20:45:40 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 12:45:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: References: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d7f2a1$01d1c4a0$05754de0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004401d7f2bd$e3bc53f0$ab34fbd0$@rainier66.com> >... On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] discovery On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 at 17:21, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >> I am watching carefully for confirmation bias, which is a good explanation for the shoe business. In many cases, there is exactly one episode in the night, so anything we do risks causing confirmation bias. Good chance the shoe cure is only that, because walking out a night cramp works, and I only have shoes on when I would be walking. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Have you heard about the man who wore shoes in bed to keep elephants away? When it was pointed out that there aren't any elephants around here, he replied "See- it works!". (Sorry - very old joke). :) BillK _______________________________________________ Hey, it works. I have at least an arm-waving explanation for why the shoe cure might have worked. Any pressure, even light pressure, on the toes at night can trigger the cramps because the feet do not completely relax in the configuration in which I always sleep: toes pointed up. Because of the vaccine, I was running a fever, so I really loaded up the blankets, four of them, and one is heavy so the additional weight was noticeable. The shoes would support the weight, allowing the feet to relax. I still can't imagine what the soap would do. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 22:49:23 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 16:49:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: <004401d7f2bd$e3bc53f0$ab34fbd0$@rainier66.com> References: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d7f2a1$01d1c4a0$05754de0$@rainier66.com> <004401d7f2bd$e3bc53f0$ab34fbd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Nobody has any explanation for the soap, but thousands have written in about it. Direct application of the soap to the leg doesn't work. I think maybe that it is fumes coming out of the soap and concentrating under the covers. Just a guess. If I forget it I get cramps sometimes; get out of bed, find the soap, put it in place, and bingo no cramps. Who knows? bill w On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 2:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >... On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] discovery > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 at 17:21, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > >> I am watching carefully for confirmation bias, which is a good > explanation for the shoe business. In many cases, there is exactly one > episode in the night, so anything we do risks causing confirmation bias. > Good chance the shoe cure is only that, because walking out a night cramp > works, and I only have shoes on when I would be walking. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > >...Have you heard about the man who wore shoes in bed to keep elephants > away? > When it was pointed out that there aren't any elephants around here, he > replied "See- it works!". > (Sorry - very old joke). :) BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Hey, it works. > > I have at least an arm-waving explanation for why the shoe cure might have > worked. > > Any pressure, even light pressure, on the toes at night can trigger the > cramps because the feet do not completely relax in the configuration in > which I always sleep: toes pointed up. > > Because of the vaccine, I was running a fever, so I really loaded up the > blankets, four of them, and one is heavy so the additional weight was > noticeable. The shoes would support the weight, allowing the feet to > relax. > > I still can't imagine what the soap would do. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 16 23:38:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 15:38:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: References: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d7f2a1$01d1c4a0$05754de0$@rainier66.com> <004401d7f2bd$e3bc53f0$ab34fbd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002b01d7f2d6$06c55dc0$14501940$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] discovery >?Nobody has any explanation for the soap, but thousands have written in about it. Direct application of the soap to the leg doesn't work. I think maybe that it is fumes coming out of the soap and concentrating under the covers. Just a guess. If I forget it I get cramps sometimes; get out of bed, find the soap, put it in place, and bingo no cramps. Who knows? bill w Ah but professor, that assumes a type of soap which emits fumes. Here?s a way to determine: find out what those fumes are, then see if it can be found in another product, see if that works similarly to the soap. Or? get a bar of unscented soap, try that. Or? get a bar of soap and another ellipsoid mass of the same size and weight but made of inert material, put each inside a sock, put the socks near your bed. Next time you get up with cramps, choose one randomly, record the next day to see if it helped the cramps. It could be that getting up to get the soap is what stopped the problem. The test I described wouldn?t work for me, because I seldom have more than one episode in an evening. Regarding the shoe business, consider this possible explanation. If it somehow triggers foot cramps to have the toes? cramped (or bent inward) we can ask why doesn?t it cause foot cramps to wear shoes which are too short? Possible answer: those would bend the toes, but once bent, the toes fit. The shoes do not keep pressing. What if a prole gets feverish, piles on the blankets, the weight cramps the toes, but after the toes are bent, the weight of the blanket is still the same as before, still pressing down just as much, unlike the undersized shoes which don?t keep pressing, since they are a fixed size. If that line of reasoning is correct, then wearing shoes to bed supports the weight of heavy blankets, allowing the toes to relax, relieving foot cramping. Billw, that theory is growing on me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 23:57:39 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:57:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: <002b01d7f2d6$06c55dc0$14501940$@rainier66.com> References: <006b01d7f29c$7803e4a0$680bade0$@rainier66.com> <001f01d7f2a1$01d1c4a0$05754de0$@rainier66.com> <004401d7f2bd$e3bc53f0$ab34fbd0$@rainier66.com> <002b01d7f2d6$06c55dc0$14501940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The soap is always there unless I forget. How do I figure out the fumes? Psychologists in the publish or perish slots come up with theories which are no better than yours. Maybe you missed a calling. You don't like pills, maybe, but most of us are low in magnesium, which helps with muscles. And eat a banana for potassium. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HZWHGJ4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title ? https://www.crampdefense.com/pages/prevent-leg-cramps? I do at least know what some of my pills are doing - standard go off them, go back on study. I am quite sure that some of my money for pills is wasted, but also sure that some isn't. bill w On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 5:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] discovery > > > > >?Nobody has any explanation for the soap, but thousands have written in > about it. Direct application of the soap to the leg doesn't work. I think > maybe that it is fumes coming out of the soap and concentrating under the > covers. Just a guess. If I forget it I get cramps sometimes; get out of > bed, find the soap, put it in place, and bingo no cramps. Who knows? > bill w > > > > > > Ah but professor, that assumes a type of soap which emits fumes. > > > > Here?s a way to determine: find out what those fumes are, then see if it > can be found in another product, see if that works similarly to the soap. > Or? get a bar of unscented soap, try that. Or? get a bar of soap and > another ellipsoid mass of the same size and weight but made of inert > material, put each inside a sock, put the socks near your bed. Next time > you get up with cramps, choose one randomly, record the next day to see if > it helped the cramps. It could be that getting up to get the soap is what > stopped the problem. The test I described wouldn?t work for me, because I > seldom have more than one episode in an evening. > > > > Regarding the shoe business, consider this possible explanation. If it > somehow triggers foot cramps to have the toes? cramped (or bent inward) we > can ask why doesn?t it cause foot cramps to wear shoes which are too > short? Possible answer: those would bend the toes, but once bent, the toes > fit. The shoes do not keep pressing. > > > > What if a prole gets feverish, piles on the blankets, the weight cramps > the toes, but after the toes are bent, the weight of the blanket is still > the same as before, still pressing down just as much, unlike the undersized > shoes which don?t keep pressing, since they are a fixed size. > > > > If that line of reasoning is correct, then wearing shoes to bed supports > the weight of heavy blankets, allowing the toes to relax, relieving foot > cramping. > > > > Billw, that theory is growing on me. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 17 00:12:09 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 16:12:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid origin Message-ID: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Back a coupla years ago almost, we were starting to hear of the novel flu virus apparently coming from China, which caught my attention because I had just gotten out of the hospital with a flu virus which didn't match any of the known strains, and had contact beforehand with someone who had just returned from China. In about February 2020 the theory was being floated that covid-19 was an engineered virus created in a research lab in China. I commented at the time in this forum that it sounded like a plausible theory to me. It was at that time considered a disreputable theory. Yesterday the British parliament was told that a lab leak is the most likely origin of covid. This is an example of a theory which has grown from ridicule to plausibility to general (even if not universal) acceptance in a span of less than two years. Theories usually take a human generation to grow to acceptance. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 00:16:34 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:16:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading Message-ID: The identity thread has been a perennial recurrence on Exi for decades and it doesn't seem to make much progress. Recently, there were some developments in neuroscience and deep learning that might shed light on the subject of personal identity. Obviously, our identity is not determined at the level of individual atoms and molecules, and any discussion at that level is just barking up the wrong tree. But, which is the lowest level of organization of the brain that encodes a person is still a valid question. For a long time I thought that the sum total of individual synapses, their strengths and the pattern of connections between neurons was the level relevant to encoding personhood. About 15 years ago or so, I changed my mind, and felt that the details of synaptic connections are not really important, as long as the neural network as a whole processes information in an equivalent fashion, as measured by inputs and outputs. I wrote here on the list that it would be OK for my upload to use a generic visual cortex rather than an exact copy of my own visual cortex scanned from my brain. I even ventured that I might be able to squeeze my person into a terabyte or so, with generic neural networks doing 99.99% of creating my subjective experience, and only 0.01% of the upload structure being determined by information from my brain scan. This attitude to self has been recently bolstered by two developments: The first new finding is that the pattern of synaptic connections in a human brain is more dynamic than previously believed. Every time you access a personal memory, the network creates new synapses and eliminates old ones, yet subjectively we have a feeling of remembering the same events. My earliest memories are from the time I was about 3 years old, and I have revisited them countless times. The patterns of synapses I use to encode those memories have probably changed multiple times but the subjective experience feels stable. The second development comes from deep learning. It turns out it is possible to construct functionally equivalent copies of neural networks by training a new network on a sample of inputs and outputs of the original network. The copy will have a completely different pattern of connections but it will almost always produce the same outputs from the same inputs, if trained appropriately. >From these two developments I conclude that it should be much easier than previously expected to upload a person using a brain machine interface (BMI), without the need to scan the microstructure of the brain. To upload you first need to create a high-level image of the long-range cortical and subcortical connections, perhaps using a high-resolution DTI scan. Then you need to use a Neuralink device to insert a bunch (million? hundred million?) electrodes into the white matter of the brain, probably also into the basal ganglia and record the neural traffic going in and out of every cortical column and basal ganglia neural cluster. No need to directly read the synapses, which are changing all the time anyway. Use the neural traffic to train millions of deep learning modules arranged in a larger structure based on the DTI image. Keep this running for some time (weeks? months? years?) until the deep learning does its job and is capable of running a functional copy of the mind in shadow mode. As the biological network starts shutting down due to aging, the digital copy keeps taking over more and more of the processing and gradually replaces the original, potentially keeping a puppet body going, and, of course, branching out into virtual realities. I thought that uploading was a far prospect, requiring an insane number of doublings in computing power and an insanely laborious process of post-mortem brain scanning. Now I think that uploading may be a realistic option after only a few orders of magnitude of growth in BMI bandwidth. I might have as much as 20 - 30 years of function left in my current substrate, and in this time, Saint Elon willing, uploading could become commercially available. Of course I would be an early adopter. Cryonics is still an important part of the reasonable person's preparations for the future but for people in their fifties it hopefully won't be ever needed. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 17 00:26:48 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 16:26:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501d7f2dc$c80078c0$58016a40$@rainier66.com> Rafal! We missed the hell outta ya, me lad! Worried we were. I trust and hope that all are well in the Smigrodzki home. I fear it is a most discouraging time to be a physician. As always, we are wishing you the best. spike ?> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading The identity thread has been a perennial recurrence on Exi for decades ?Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 00:34:34 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:34:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: <002501d7f2dc$c80078c0$58016a40$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d7f2dc$c80078c0$58016a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 7:26 PM wrote: > I trust and hope that all are well in the Smigrodzki home. > ### All is good, baby running around and babbling. > I fear it is a most discouraging time to be a physician. > ### Discouraging? Nah, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. On track for working 357 nights this year, for a total of 4,284 hours :) Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 17 00:47:50 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 16:47:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] babies and medics, was: RE: The quick and easy... Message-ID: <004301d7f2df$b86a4500$293ecf00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat ### All is good, baby running around and babbling? Excellent, glad to hear of this, Doc. ### Discouraging? Nah, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. On track for working 357 nights this year, for a total of 4,284 hours :) Rafal OK well, I hadn?t thought of it from that point of view. As I recall, you were one of those who agreed with the plausibility of the notion that covid-19 was an engineered bio-weapon or research project. It?s looking pretty good now. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Dec 17 10:48:36 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:48:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1cb7fb57-7ecc-4aab-38fa-241e904ccf18@zaiboc.net> On 14/12/2021 16:40, billw asked: > Trivia question:? ?Do you know of another movie in which the title > character is never seen?? bill w Ha, easy! Gone with the Wind Ben From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 18:17:50 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:17:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <1cb7fb57-7ecc-4aab-38fa-241e904ccf18@zaiboc.net> References: <1cb7fb57-7ecc-4aab-38fa-241e904ccf18@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 10:15 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 14/12/2021 16:40, billw asked: > > Trivia question: Do you know of another movie in which the title > > character is never seen? bill w > > Ha, easy! > > Gone with the Wind > Eh. The wind, not being sentient (so far as anyone can tell), would not seem to count as a "character". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 19:13:24 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 12:13:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <002501d7f2dc$c80078c0$58016a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Creating a digital duplicate of oneself that will live forever would be great, but I'd kinda like to be able to upload too. Much harder problem. On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 5:36 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 7:26 PM wrote: > > >> I trust and hope that all are well in the Smigrodzki home. >> > > ### All is good, baby running around and babbling. > > >> I fear it is a most discouraging time to be a physician. >> > > ### Discouraging? Nah, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. On track for > working 357 nights this year, for a total of 4,284 hours :) > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 19:38:09 2021 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Hermes Trismegistus) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:38:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <351D73CD-623F-4848-BF8E-26505C7A0D8F@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 19:55:40 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:55:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 7:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > In about February 2020 the theory was being floated that covid-19 was an > engineered virus created in a research lab in China. I commented at the > time in this forum that it sounded like a plausible theory to me. It was > at that time considered a disreputable theory. > > > > Yesterday the British parliament was told that a lab leak is the most > likely origin of covid. This is an example of a theory which has grown > from ridicule to plausibility to general (even if not universal) acceptance > in a span of less than two years. Theories usually take a human generation > to grow to acceptance. > "Engineered virus" and "leaked from a lab" are two entirely different things. It's still very unlikely that covid was man made. It's quite plausible that it was caught in the wild and was being studied at Wuhan and was accidentally released. See https://www.virology.ws/2021/09/09/gain-of-function-explained/ for more info. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 22:53:49 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:53:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] probability Message-ID: Do any of you know what is taught in public schools through high school? We all know that the average person is terrible at it and even smart people are not much better. Do you know of the study with breast cancer and a room full of medical doctors, showing just how badly they guess the probability? And then it is calculated with Bayes formula? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Dec 17 23:43:58 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 10:43:58 +1100 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 at 09:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Do any of you know what is taught in public schools through high school? > We all know that the average person is terrible at it and even smart people > are not much better. > > Do you know of the study with breast cancer and a room full of medical > doctors, showing just how badly they guess the probability? And then it is > calculated with Bayes formula? > It?s much more basic with many than not being able to use Bayes? theorem. I have met people in the last year who are unable to compare two probabilities. Informed that there is a 1/100 chance of dying from COVID and 1/million chance of dying from the vaccine, their response has been, ?I still don?t want the vaccine, because what if I?m that 1 in a million?? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 17 23:50:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:50:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008501d7f3a0$dfd25760$9f770620$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] probability >?Do any of you know what is taught in public schools through high school?... I do. My son is taking a course in it currently. He is getting a better course than I did in college. >?Do you know of the study with breast cancer and a room full of medical doctors, showing just how badly they guess the probability? And then it is calculated with Bayes formula? bill w Ja, they are emphasizing it in medical schools now more than in times past. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Dec 17 10:55:35 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:55:35 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Future Is Going to Be Extremely Lonely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12c45f84-6794-71d1-837e-1fa55de6bac7@zaiboc.net> On 14/12/2021 16:40, spike proposed: > > I propose a covid Christmas song contest.? My entry I call > > Have Yourself a Lonely Little Christmas > > (May your case be mild)? > "Silent Wife" More a hope than a song title, though... Ben (getting my coat) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Dec 17 23:17:06 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 23:17:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77c13f21-9833-ec67-d089-467424c5b8af@zaiboc.net> On 17/12/2021 18:18, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > n Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 10:15 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On 14/12/2021 16:40, billw asked: > > Trivia question:? ?Do you know of another movie in which the title > > character is never seen?? bill w > > Ha, easy! > > Gone with the Wind > > > Eh.? The wind, not being sentient (so far as anyone can tell), would > not seem to count as a "character". Bah. Spoilsport. I will counter with the notion that nothing in a film is actually sentient. All pre-programmed, no response to stimuli at all. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 00:13:14 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 19:13:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <002501d7f2dc$c80078c0$58016a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 2:13 PM Darin Sunley wrote: > Creating a digital duplicate of oneself that will live forever would be > great, but I'd kinda like to be able to upload too. Much harder problem. > ### Well, what do you mean by "upload"? Isn't creating the digital copy that can function in parallel a form of uploading? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 00:18:54 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 19:18:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: <351D73CD-623F-4848-BF8E-26505C7A0D8F@hxcore.ol> References: <351D73CD-623F-4848-BF8E-26505C7A0D8F@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 2:38 PM Hermes Trismegistus wrote: > I?ve had thoughts similar to yours. The brain is so flexible that it > should be possible to connect artificial neurons to our existing neurons. > The natural and artificial ones would begin communicating and their > functions would coalesce. This may be a way of integrating new body parts > such as a tail that would eventually develop its own unique sensations > after the natural neurons integrate their functionality with the artificial > ones. > ### Indeed, the advanced BMI used for uploading should be also capable of expanding the scope of function and the scope of conscious experience, from integrating new sensory capabilities, to boosting mathematical reasoning capability and general IQ, to gaining the ability to control multiple physical avatars simultaneously. Sky's the limit. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 00:25:59 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 19:25:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 2:57 PM Dave S via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 7:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> In about February 2020 the theory was being floated that covid-19 was an >> engineered virus created in a research lab in China. I commented at the >> time in this forum that it sounded like a plausible theory to me. It was >> at that time considered a disreputable theory. >> >> >> >> Yesterday the British parliament was told that a lab leak is the most >> likely origin of covid. This is an example of a theory which has grown >> from ridicule to plausibility to general (even if not universal) acceptance >> in a span of less than two years. Theories usually take a human generation >> to grow to acceptance. >> > > "Engineered virus" and "leaked from a lab" are two entirely different > things. It's still very unlikely that covid was man made. It's quite > plausible that it was caught in the wild and was being studied at Wuhan and > was accidentally released. See > https://www.virology.ws/2021/09/09/gain-of-function-explained/ for more > info. > > ### Without doubt it was engineered. The furin cleavage site didn't splice itself into the Wuhan virus genome, and the unusual arginine doublet codons didn't show up by magic, they were put in as a part of a research project. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 18 00:26:58 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:26:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00bb01d7f3a5$f8918a00$e9b49e00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?It?s much more basic with many than not being able to use Bayes? theorem. I have met people in the last year who are unable to compare two probabilities. Informed that there is a 1/100 chance of dying from COVID and 1/million chance of dying from the vaccine, their response has been, ?I still don?t want the vaccine, because what if I?m that 1 in a million?? -- Stathis Papaioannou Informed by who? Statis, if informed by someone that there is a 1/100 chance of dying from covid, that is easily disproven with public domain data. If someone claimed there is 1 a million risk of dying from the vaccine, it asks the question: how is that calculated? We don?t know the long-term effects of that vaccine. We know the risk of dying immediately perhaps (actually we don?t (because that information in the USA is 4th amendment protected.)) By reducing it to the numbers you call out, it sounds a lot like one-size-fits-all medicine. But the real picture is far more complex. I would develop a distrust of the person calling out those numbers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 00:37:42 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 19:37:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Thomas Seyfried and the Warburg Effect In-Reply-To: <20210821175654.Horde.SiXoMZvco_qNCd3l3848p1J@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210821175654.Horde.SiXoMZvco_qNCd3l3848p1J@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 8:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This is an hour long lecture by Dr. Thomas Seyfried PhD. who is a > something of a maverick in cancer research. But he is an engaging and > compelling speaker with loads of data, so his lecture goes by fast. In > 1931, Otto Warburg discovered cancer cells can only be fueled by > glucose metabolism and are unable to derive energy from the electron > transport chain and oxidative phosphorylation. So almost a century > later, why is the war against cancer still not incorporating his > Nobel-level research into cancer treatments? He is absolutely right > about the dogmatism of cancer being a genetic disease. It got hammered > into me at when I was doing biomedical research at UCLA. Seyfried > makes a compelling case that cancer is instead a metabolic disease of > mitochondria. His approach uses the Warburg effect as an Achilles's > heel to kill cancer with diet. Very practical stuff. Rafal would > appreciate this so I hope he is lurking. ### Our company did a lot of research on mitochondrial-targeted cancer treatments and some of our leads are very promising. The company is now focused on human trials for a treatment for fatty liver disease but once the trials are finished we will try to advance the mitochondrial cancer drugs as well. This said, cancer *is* a genetic disease. The suppression of mitochondrial activity in cancer cells is caused by some commonly mutated oncogenes, it is not the primary cause of cancer but rather a part of the progression of cancerogenesis that rather reliably occurs because it shuts down apoptosis and thus protects cancer cells from this self-destruct mechanism. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 00:50:56 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 19:50:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age In-Reply-To: <01f501d78cd7$9f72ff10$de58fd30$@rainier66.com> References: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> <01f501d78cd7$9f72ff10$de58fd30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 12:34 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Thanks for mentioning cryptocurrency Darin. I have only a vague and very > possibly inaccurate notion of what is (are?) Kardashians (and I am > deplorably too apathetic on that subject to google it) but note that the > ideas which led to cryptocurrency were very likely first discussed in this > forum in the 1990s. May Hal Finney rest in peace and his fond memory live > forever. > > > ### I am looking forward to meeting Hal once his brain is scanned and uploaded. He did have the best possible suspension, it was done under controlled conditions after he chose to have his ventilator switched off. It's more than the memory of Hal that will (hopefully) live forever. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 01:22:45 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:22:45 +1100 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: <00bb01d7f3a5$f8918a00$e9b49e00$@rainier66.com> References: <00bb01d7f3a5$f8918a00$e9b49e00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 at 11:32, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > >?It?s much more basic with many than not being able to use Bayes? > theorem. I have met people in the last year who are unable to compare two > probabilities. Informed that there is a 1/100 chance of dying from COVID > and 1/million chance of dying from the vaccine, their response has been, ?I > still don?t want the vaccine, because what if I?m that 1 in a million?? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Informed by who? Statis, if informed by someone that there is a 1/100 > chance of dying from covid, that is easily disproven with public domain > data. If someone claimed there is 1 a million risk of dying from the > vaccine, it asks the question: how is that calculated? We don?t know the > long-term effects of that vaccine. We know the risk of dying immediately > perhaps (actually we don?t (because that information in the USA is 4th > amendment protected.)) > > > > By reducing it to the numbers you call out, it sounds a lot like > one-size-fits-all medicine. But the real picture is far more complex. I > would develop a distrust of the person calling out those numbers. > My point is that they don?t dispute the numbers, they say that they are more afraid of the vaccine even if the numbers are correct. They have a problem with mathematics, or perhaps they have a superstitious belief that despite the numbers they are personally at greater risk from the vaccine. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 18 01:26:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 17:26:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Golden Age In-Reply-To: References: <40182D20-E325-4152-9573-E2C35E482349@hxcore.ol> <01f501d78cd7$9f72ff10$de58fd30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f601d7f3ae$48bbb840$da3328c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat ### I am looking forward to meeting Hal once his brain is scanned and uploaded. He did have the best possible suspension, it was done under controlled conditions after he chose to have his ventilator switched off. It's more than the memory of Hal that will (hopefully) live forever. Rafal May it be so sir. Hal Finney was a very special person. He was a very rare combination of smart, kindhearted, insightful, activist, modest along with even athletic. That combination is seldom found in the same guy. I will never forget our discussions: I was nobody, but he treated me as an equal. What a guy! This is his critically important insight: he was the one who realized that anything which can be owned and which was inherently limited in quantity could be used as a currency of sorts. Currency didn?t actually need something backing it. In the old days, currency was backed by gold, but governments quietly stopped backing currency with gold (or anything.) Proles kept trading in it just the same. They weakly promised to not print it in arbitrary quantities, and most governments mostly keep that promise, but eventually Zimbabwe, Venezuela printed their own currency to worthlessness. Now the USA appears to be following their lead. But the way BitCoin is designed, it is inherently impossible to generate arbitrary quantities of it. Hal recognized that a currency doesn?t need gold behind it, or anything else, so long as its supply is limited. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 18 01:56:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 17:56:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: References: <00bb01d7f3a5$f8918a00$e9b49e00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013101d7f3b2$7515a500$5f40ef00$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat By reducing it to the numbers you call out, it sounds a lot like one-size-fits-all medicine. But the real picture is far more complex. I would develop a distrust of the person calling out those numbers. >?My point is that they don?t dispute the numbers, they say that they are more afraid of the vaccine even if the numbers are correct. They have a problem with mathematics, or perhaps they have a superstitious belief that despite the numbers they are personally at greater risk from the vaccine. -- Stathis Papaioannou Ja. My point is that we don?t know what the long-term risk model looks like. It is speculative, and probably supported by theory as we know it, however? we who choose to take the vaccines are experimental pilots and should recognize the fact. Consider how much of the theory has already been disproven. When the vaccine became available, we were told it was one and done. False, now it is generally acknowledged this isn?t even a vaccine in the traditional sense, it is immunotherapy. There are known risk models associated with immunotherapy. I am not a doctor, so I will leave it at that. We were told that immunized people would be unlikely to catch, or if they did, they would be unlikely to die. Well, that turned out to be only partially true as my family found out when my step-mother who was double immunized, caught and perished of covid a coupla months ago. Many countries are compelling their citizens to take the vaccines, even the young, whose immune systems are robust and able to deal with covid, yet these same people have the most to lose in the long run if there are long-term unforeseen health consequences for injecting mRNA. We don?t really know for sure if that will have long-term consequences, for we don?t have that data. It probably won?t. But the risk model is still unknown. To call out a number, particularly one as small as 1 in a million, reduces the credibility of the person claiming it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Dec 17 10:45:51 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:45:51 +0000 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1848f45b-1d8b-a958-088e-b022c530a789@zaiboc.net> On 14/12/2021 16:40, Giulio wrote: > But a film doesn't necessarily have to be worse than a book. If a film > comes first ... Another important factor. Which did you encounter first? The one you're more familiar with is often 'better', regardless of whether it's a hatchet-job, etc. Ben From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 02:52:58 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 13:52:58 +1100 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: <013101d7f3b2$7515a500$5f40ef00$@rainier66.com> References: <00bb01d7f3a5$f8918a00$e9b49e00$@rainier66.com> <013101d7f3b2$7515a500$5f40ef00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 at 12:57, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > By reducing it to the numbers you call out, it sounds a lot like > one-size-fits-all medicine. But the real picture is far more complex. I > would develop a distrust of the person calling out those numbers. > > >?My point is that they don?t dispute the numbers, they say that they are > more afraid of the vaccine even if the numbers are correct. They have a > problem with mathematics, or perhaps they have a superstitious belief that > despite the numbers they are personally at greater risk from the vaccine. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Ja. My point is that we don?t know what the long-term risk model looks > like. It is speculative, and probably supported by theory as we know it, > however? we who choose to take the vaccines are experimental pilots and > should recognize the fact. > > > > Consider how much of the theory has already been disproven. When the > vaccine became available, we were told it was one and done. False, now it > is generally acknowledged this isn?t even a vaccine in the traditional > sense, it is immunotherapy. There are known risk models associated with > immunotherapy. I am not a doctor, so I will leave it at that. We were > told that immunized people would be unlikely to catch, or if they did, they > would be unlikely to die. Well, that turned out to be only partially true > as my family found out when my step-mother who was double immunized, caught > and perished of covid a coupla months ago. > > > > Many countries are compelling their citizens to take the vaccines, even > the young, whose immune systems are robust and able to deal with covid, yet > these same people have the most to lose in the long run if there are > long-term unforeseen health consequences for injecting mRNA. We don?t > really know for sure if that will have long-term consequences, for we don?t > have that data. It probably won?t. But the risk model is still unknown. > To call out a number, particularly one as small as 1 in a million, reduces > the credibility of the person claiming it. > There is only one ?vaccine?, the original smallpox vaccine, derived from the cowpox virus. ?Vacca? is Latin for cow. All subsequent ?vaccines? are strictly speaking immunisations. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 03:39:28 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 20:39:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <351D73CD-623F-4848-BF8E-26505C7A0D8F@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: No, No, No. I completely agree with you on the timeline, but all you guys, St Elon included, are still thinking, and doing science, along with all other physicists, in ways that can't distinguish between the world, and knowledge of the world. We refer to language and thinking that only uses one abstract word for all things red (everyone in the entire world and in all peer reviewed journals), as 'qualia blind' as it is unable to represent effing of the ineffable things possible when you fail to distinguish between red, and say the intrinsic redness quality of your visual knowledge of red. If you distinguish between red and redness, and provide the required definitions, you can say critically important effing of the effable things like: "My redness is like your greenness, both of which we call red." In reality no physicist can tell us the intrinsic color of anything. We can describe everything in our brain, but we have no idea which of all those descriptions is your redness. We simply haven't yet connected our objective descriptions of stuff in the brain, with the subjective qualities of the same physical stuff we directly apprehend as knowledge of color and such, all because of our qualia blindness. We live in a colorful world, but still nobody knows the intrinsic colorness of anything. Once St Elon and everyone starts observing the brain in a way that distinguishes between color and knowledge of color or colorness, only then will we be able to connect the objective descriptions of stuff in the brain, and your subjective redness. Along with what it is like for the rest of your consciousness - critically important to know what your consciousness is like. [image: 3_robots_tiny.png] All abstract things, today, including all the artificial neural nets you are talking about, represent things with abstract words like 'red' as portrayed by the system on the right. You can't know what the word 'red' means, without a dictionary. The physical redness quality your brain uses to represent visual knowledge of red with is the definition of red, to you. In the future, we will be able to re-engineer you, to use your greenness, instead of your redness, to represent red knowledge with. See our "Consciousness Not a 'Hard Problem' Just a Color Problem " video, for more information. We are in the process of developing a new chapter called "The World in your Head" which will educate people on what it will be like to be "uploaded', moving your knowledge of your spirit, into another world in another's head, over "computationally binding" links like the ponytails portrayed in Cameroon's avatar . Also what it will be like to upload yourself into a significantly upgraded world in your head, with hundreds of thousands of times of knowledge resolution, and 10 or more additional primary colors, and so on. Once St Elon finally realizes how to think in ways that distinguish between red and redness, then their team will surely discover which of all our descriptions of stuff in the brain is redness. Only then will they be able to finally discover what is required to upload your knowledge of your spirit, into another significantly improve 'world' into an artificial head world. As a preview of what will be contained in the new "The World in your Head" chapter of our video in a much more compelling way, see chapters 5 and 6 of my "1229 Years After Titanic " Cameron fan fiction story. On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 5:19 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 2:38 PM Hermes Trismegistus > wrote: > >> I?ve had thoughts similar to yours. The brain is so flexible that it >> should be possible to connect artificial neurons to our existing neurons. >> The natural and artificial ones would begin communicating and their >> functions would coalesce. This may be a way of integrating new body parts >> such as a tail that would eventually develop its own unique sensations >> after the natural neurons integrate their functionality with the artificial >> ones. >> > > ### Indeed, the advanced BMI used for uploading should be also capable of > expanding the scope of function and the scope of conscious experience, from > integrating new sensory capabilities, to boosting mathematical reasoning > capability and general IQ, to gaining the ability to control multiple > physical avatars simultaneously. > > Sky's the limit. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3_robots_tiny.png Type: image/png Size: 26214 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 04:07:18 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:07:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <351D73CD-623F-4848-BF8E-26505C7A0D8F@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Forgot to mention that when you have "computationally binding" links like the ponytails portrayed in Cameroon's avatar , you'll experience 100% of what it is like, not just half of the experience when you hug a loved one. On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 8:39 PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > > > No, No, No. I completely agree with you on the timeline, but all you > guys, St Elon included, are still thinking, and doing science, along with > all other physicists, in ways that can't distinguish between the world, and > knowledge of the world. We refer to language and thinking that only uses > one abstract word for all things red (everyone in the entire world and in > all peer reviewed journals), as 'qualia blind' as it is unable to represent > effing of the ineffable things possible when you fail to distinguish > between red, and say the intrinsic redness quality of your visual knowledge > of red. If you distinguish between red and redness, and provide the > required definitions, you can say critically important effing of the > effable things like: "My redness is like your greenness, both of which we > call red." In reality no physicist can tell us the intrinsic color of > anything. We can describe everything in our brain, but we have no idea > which of all those descriptions is your redness. We simply haven't yet > connected our objective descriptions of stuff in the brain, with the > subjective qualities of the same physical stuff we directly apprehend as > knowledge of color and such, all because of our qualia blindness. We live > in a colorful world, but still nobody knows the intrinsic colorness of > anything. Once St Elon and everyone starts observing the brain in a way > that distinguishes between color and knowledge of color or colorness, only > then will we be able to connect the objective descriptions of stuff in the > brain, and your subjective redness. Along with what it is like for the > rest of your consciousness - critically important to know what your > consciousness is like. > [image: 3_robots_tiny.png] > All abstract things, today, including all the artificial neural nets you > are talking about, represent things with abstract words like 'red' as > portrayed by the system on the right. You can't know what the word 'red' > means, without a dictionary. The physical redness quality your brain uses > to represent visual knowledge of red with is the definition of red, to > you. In the future, we will be able to re-engineer you, to use your > greenness, instead of your redness, to represent red knowledge with. See > our "Consciousness Not a 'Hard Problem' Just a Color Problem > " video, for more > information. > > We are in the process of developing a new chapter called "The World in > your Head" which will educate people on what it will be like to be > "uploaded', moving your knowledge of your spirit, into another world in > another's head, over "computationally binding" links like the ponytails > portrayed in Cameroon's avatar . > Also what it will be like to upload yourself into a significantly upgraded > world in your head, with hundreds of thousands of times of knowledge > resolution, and 10 or more additional primary colors, and so on. > > Once St Elon finally realizes how to think in ways that distinguish > between red and redness, then their team will surely discover which of all > our descriptions of stuff in the brain is redness. Only then will they be > able to finally discover what is required to upload your knowledge of your > spirit, into another significantly improve 'world' into an artificial head > world. > > As a preview of what will be contained in the new "The World in your Head" > chapter of our video in a much more compelling way, see chapters 5 and 6 of > my "1229 Years After Titanic > " > Cameron fan fiction story. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 5:19 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 2:38 PM Hermes Trismegistus >> wrote: >> >>> I?ve had thoughts similar to yours. The brain is so flexible that it >>> should be possible to connect artificial neurons to our existing neurons. >>> The natural and artificial ones would begin communicating and their >>> functions would coalesce. This may be a way of integrating new body parts >>> such as a tail that would eventually develop its own unique sensations >>> after the natural neurons integrate their functionality with the artificial >>> ones. >>> >> >> ### Indeed, the advanced BMI used for uploading should be also capable of >> expanding the scope of function and the scope of conscious experience, from >> integrating new sensory capabilities, to boosting mathematical reasoning >> capability and general IQ, to gaining the ability to control multiple >> physical avatars simultaneously. >> >> Sky's the limit. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3_robots_tiny.png Type: image/png Size: 26214 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 08:05:10 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 03:05:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This basically. As much as I disagree with most of what Rafal says, that EXACT modification was proposed for a study AT THAT FACILITY IN WUHAN, and a year later the virus with that same modification appears a few miles from that facility? Come on, you'd have to be crazy not to question that. And we trust the CCP to give us the origin story? On Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 7:26 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 2:57 PM Dave S via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 7:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> In about February 2020 the theory was being floated that covid-19 was an >>> engineered virus created in a research lab in China. I commented at the >>> time in this forum that it sounded like a plausible theory to me. It was >>> at that time considered a disreputable theory. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yesterday the British parliament was told that a lab leak is the most >>> likely origin of covid. This is an example of a theory which has grown >>> from ridicule to plausibility to general (even if not universal) acceptance >>> in a span of less than two years. Theories usually take a human generation >>> to grow to acceptance. >>> >> >> "Engineered virus" and "leaked from a lab" are two entirely different >> things. It's still very unlikely that covid was man made. It's quite >> plausible that it was caught in the wild and was being studied at Wuhan and >> was accidentally released. See >> https://www.virology.ws/2021/09/09/gain-of-function-explained/ for more >> info. >> >> > ### Without doubt it was engineered. The furin cleavage site didn't splice > itself into the Wuhan virus genome, and the unusual arginine doublet codons > didn't show up by magic, they were put in as a part of a research project. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Dec 17 11:22:59 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 11:22:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?I have a - well, not a theory, really, more an observation, or even just a question - about night cramps. They're always leg or foot cramps, aren't they? People never seem to get arm cramps or back cramps in the night. I'm sure everyone's familiar with the phenomenon of dreaming that you're running, but can't run at more than a snail's pace, running through treacle kind of sensation, and the frustration it produces. We know (I think) that this is caused by deliberate paralysis of the leg muscles during sleep, to prevent us walking over cliffs etc., in the night. But we keep trying, in our dreams, to run. And the final piece: It's quite possible to induce a cramp in a muscle by over-contracting it, for long enough. Maybe a combination of these things, and the timing of the paralysis, contributes to nocturnal leg cramps. Solution: learn to skate. I've found, that, since doing a lot of street skating, my 'running' dreams get replaced by 'skating' dreams, where when I want to go somewhere, I skate instead of run. Different muscles involved, a lot easier, I get somewhere in the dreams, and don't get the leg cramps as much. It may be nonsense, but so may be the idea that cramps are caused by mineral deficiencies, and if you take a couple of Magnesium supplement tablets daily (I do), you get less cramps (I do). Any other ideas? Ben From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 18 15:26:01 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 07:26:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002601d7f423$90d10890$b27319b0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] discovery ?I have a - well, not a theory, really, more an observation, or even just a question - about night cramps. >...They're always leg or foot cramps, aren't they? People never seem to get arm cramps or back cramps in the night. You're right about that, hadn't realized it, but the back has long powerful muscles too, and they are used constantly when we are awake. The gloots are big muscles (if you're lucky) but those never cramp (if you're lucky.) >...But we keep trying, in our dreams, to run... Well there ya go, that explains why the shoe cure worked: I am really to flee any night terror. >...And the final piece: It's quite possible to induce a cramp in a muscle by over-contracting it, for long enough... Ja, that is something I have always had to be very careful about with regard to feet at night. I can induce a cramp that way in two seconds. >...Maybe a combination of these things, and the timing of the paralysis, contributes to nocturnal leg cramps. Ja interesting observation. The same action that would induce a foot cramp at night doesn't do so in the day. Hmmmm... >...Any other ideas? Ben Seems reasonable Ben. I heard the magnesium deficiency theory, took some vitamins, no difference. Blood tests showed I had no deficiency so it's no mystery the Mg didn't work._ I need to design a series of tests. My bride doesn't like the shoes in bed notion, even though they are new shoes, never been worn outside that room. Good chance I will need to work on an alternative there, and I don't really think she will be OK with soap in the bed either. She's weird that way: bedtime Bonzo, no soap, no shoes, cut the crap and go to sleep. spike ______________________________________________ From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 16:52:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 10:52:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: At this point, why do we care? Labs all over, including ours, no doubt, are making all kinds of things, likely much worse, and accidents will happen. Lab people are human. Does anyone think that China knowingly released this virus? Then it's an issue. If not, then not. Sometimes you people are like ESPN - endless, useless, speculation. bill w On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 2:07 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This basically. As much as I disagree with most of what Rafal says, that > EXACT modification was proposed for a study AT THAT FACILITY IN WUHAN, and > a year later the virus with that same modification appears a few miles from > that facility? Come on, you'd have to be crazy not to question that. And we > trust the CCP to give us the origin story? > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 7:26 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 2:57 PM Dave S via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 7:14 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In about February 2020 the theory was being floated that covid-19 was >>>> an engineered virus created in a research lab in China. I commented at the >>>> time in this forum that it sounded like a plausible theory to me. It was >>>> at that time considered a disreputable theory. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yesterday the British parliament was told that a lab leak is the most >>>> likely origin of covid. This is an example of a theory which has grown >>>> from ridicule to plausibility to general (even if not universal) acceptance >>>> in a span of less than two years. Theories usually take a human generation >>>> to grow to acceptance. >>>> >>> >>> "Engineered virus" and "leaked from a lab" are two entirely different >>> things. It's still very unlikely that covid was man made. It's quite >>> plausible that it was caught in the wild and was being studied at Wuhan and >>> was accidentally released. See >>> https://www.virology.ws/2021/09/09/gain-of-function-explained/ for more >>> info. >>> >>> >> ### Without doubt it was engineered. The furin cleavage site didn't >> splice itself into the Wuhan virus genome, and the unusual arginine doublet >> codons didn't show up by magic, they were put in as a part of a research >> project. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 18 17:00:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:00:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000701d7f430$c95be790$5c13b6b0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] covid origin >?At this point, why do we care? Labs all over, including ours, no doubt, are making all kinds of things, likely much worse, and accidents will happen. Lab people are human. Does anyone think that China knowingly released this virus? Then it's an issue. If not, then not. >?Sometimes you people are like ESPN - endless, useless, speculation. bill w Billw, the reason this is important is that if covid was created in a lab, it demonstrates to the rest of the world that it can be done. This will get other labs everywhere creating bio-weapons, which they can arrange to release in their enemy?s country. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 17:01:20 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:01:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: <008501d7f3a0$dfd25760$9f770620$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d7f3a0$dfd25760$9f770620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike - our college offered a statistics course in the Math dept. in addition to the one I taught. Talking with my friend who taught it, it was all about equations and derivations and nothing at all about how to use or misuse statistics. Which he did not know anyway. My point: is Isaac getting the math end and the everyday use of probability in real situations? (and what grade is he in now?) And do you know if all schools in the district teach it? Prerequisites? I suspect his course will be too hard for most students and so they miss the practical applications of probability. bill w On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 5:52 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] probability > > > > >?Do any of you know what is taught in public schools through high school? > ... > > > > I do. My son is taking a course in it currently. He is getting a better > course than I did in college. > > > > >?Do you know of the study with breast cancer and a room full of medical > doctors, showing just how badly they guess the probability? And then it is > calculated with Bayes formula? bill w > > > > Ja, they are emphasizing it in medical schools now more than in times past. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 17:11:10 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:11:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] why the book is better In-Reply-To: <1848f45b-1d8b-a958-088e-b022c530a789@zaiboc.net> References: <1848f45b-1d8b-a958-088e-b022c530a789@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: > > > But a film doesn't necessarily have to be worse than a book. If a film > > comes first ... > > Another important factor. Which did you encounter first? The one you're > more familiar with is often 'better', regardless of whether it's a > hatchet-job, etc. > That has not been my experience. If I see a movie first and then read the book, I usually think of several ways in which the movie could have been better. Casting, for one thing - the movie having left out significant parts, for another. Differences between me and the director/screen writer. A movie that was perfectly cast: Gone With The Wind. bill w > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 17:34:02 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:34:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: <000701d7f430$c95be790$5c13b6b0$@rainier66.com> References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> <000701d7f430$c95be790$5c13b6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Billw, the reason this is important is that if covid was created in a lab, it demonstrates to the rest of the world that it can be done. This will get other labs everywhere creating bio-weapons, which they can arrange to release in their enemy?s country. spike *I'll bet that lab people all over are proceeding on the assumption that it can be done. At this point isn't it likely that we will never find out?* *bill w* On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 11:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid origin > > > > >?At this point, why do we care? Labs all over, including ours, no > doubt, are making all kinds of things, likely much worse, and accidents > will happen. Lab people are human. Does anyone think that China knowingly > released this virus? Then it's an issue. If not, then not. > > > > >?Sometimes you people are like ESPN - endless, useless, speculation. > bill w > > > > > > Billw, the reason this is important is that if covid was created in a lab, > it demonstrates to the rest of the world that it can be done. This will > get other labs everywhere creating bio-weapons, which they can arrange to > release in their enemy?s country. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 18 17:49:27 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:49:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: References: <008501d7f3a0$dfd25760$9f770620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003001d7f437$9acc5520$d064ff60$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] probability >?Spike - our college offered a statistics course in the Math dept. in addition to the one I taught. Talking with my friend who taught it, it was all about equations and derivations and nothing at all about how to use or misuse statistics. Which he did not know anyway? Ja, I marvel at how practical is the high school statistics course. If you look at all the equations in introduction to statistics, there aren?t that many of them and none of them are particularly complicated really. Note this assumes the non-calculus non-linear algebra based course, the first one taken by engineers, business majors and such. The calculus based statistics course is often an upper division, and the linear-algebra based stats would often be graduate level. >?My point: is Isaac getting the math end and the everyday use of probability in real situations? Ja, and it includes combinatorics now a lot more than it did in the olden days, which is the most common real world application setting. Details cheerfully available. >?and what grade is he in now 10th. >?And do you know if all schools in the district teach it? I do not. >?Prerequisites? Pre-calculus. It is considered an alternate path to the calculus, and has gained popularity over the decades. >?I suspect his course will be too hard for most students and so they miss the practical applications of probability. bill w Ja, entirely possible. Fun aside for those into competition math: the old tests for American Math Competition are available online, so a prole can compare modern tests to ones given 60 years ago. The most striking difference is that now nearly every competition includes a combinatorics problem or two, and sometimes three on the same test. If a prole does not know how to do those, she will suck. I am a poster-child example of that sad condition: I haven?t mastered the skill-set, but my son did, so now when we play a match he wins every time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 18 18:00:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 10:00:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> <000701d7f430$c95be790$5c13b6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003f01d7f439$312328e0$93697aa0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] covid origin >>?Billw, the reason this is important is that if covid was created in a lab, it demonstrates to the rest of the world that it can be done? spike >?I'll bet that lab people all over are proceeding on the assumption that it can be done. At this point isn't it likely that we will never find out? bill w At this point we pretty much already did find out. As the lab-leak theory gains general acceptance, I notice the Chinese aren?t working too hard to debunk it anymore. They never did move to stop the markets from selling bat-soup, for they likely knew that wasn?t how this thing started. War technology moves quickly during war time. For the past 50 years, the focus of human technology has been in making electronics faster, lower power use, smaller, lighter, cheaper. Now we are near the end of that development phase as our circuit elements approach atomic limits. Now we can see the place to be in high-tech is in bio-engineering, which includes biological warfare, just as electronics includes electronic warfare. We went down the wrong road to start with after covid showed up. Assuming it was natural origin, resources were squandered searching for a natural host, which was never found (surprise!) as China stonewalled the world. The countermeasures against a natural virus differ from those most effective against an engineered bio-weapon or even an accidental leak of a peaceful research project. It matters how this virus came to be. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 18:30:38 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 10:30:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] discovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 4:23 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > They're always leg or foot cramps, aren't they? People never seem to get > arm cramps or back cramps in the night. > I dunno, my back's been sore a few times. > I'm sure everyone's familiar with the phenomenon of dreaming that you're > running, but can't run at more than a snail's pace, running through > treacle kind of sensation, and the frustration it produces. > My solution, since I'm dreaming anyway: fly. Depending on the mode, it uses different muscles or no muscles. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 18:37:29 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:37:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: <003001d7f437$9acc5520$d064ff60$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d7f3a0$dfd25760$9f770620$@rainier66.com> <003001d7f437$9acc5520$d064ff60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: All of which is to say that what is being taught is unavailable to the average student, who is very unlikely to take precalc. I still vote for a class in, say 11th grade, which teaches everyday probability and everyday finance. Most people are unaware of just how powerful compound interest is. Oh well. English is taught every year starting about the 7th grade, isn't it? Most of it is useless to the average student, since grammar takes a back seat to literature. Result; college students don't know grammar. Some people in our group are not good at it. Biggest problem out there: nobody asked me! bill w On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 11:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] probability > > > > >?Spike - our college offered a statistics course in the Math dept. in > addition to the one I taught. Talking with my friend who taught it, it was > all about equations and derivations and nothing at all about how to use or > misuse statistics. Which he did not know anyway? > > > > > > Ja, I marvel at how practical is the high school statistics course. If > you look at all the equations in introduction to statistics, there aren?t > that many of them and none of them are particularly complicated really. > Note this assumes the non-calculus non-linear algebra based course, the > first one taken by engineers, business majors and such. The calculus based > statistics course is often an upper division, and the linear-algebra based > stats would often be graduate level. > > > > > > >?My point: is Isaac getting the math end and the everyday use of > probability in real situations? > > > > Ja, and it includes combinatorics now a lot more than it did in the olden > days, which is the most common real world application setting. Details > cheerfully available. > > > > >?and what grade is he in now > > > > 10th. > > > > >?And do you know if all schools in the district teach it? > > > > I do not. > > > > >?Prerequisites? > > > > Pre-calculus. It is considered an alternate path to the calculus, and has > gained popularity over the decades. > > > > >?I suspect his course will be too hard for most students and so they > miss the practical applications of probability. bill w > > > > Ja, entirely possible. Fun aside for those into competition math: the old > tests for American Math Competition are available online, so a prole can > compare modern tests to ones given 60 years ago. The most striking > difference is that now nearly every competition includes a combinatorics > problem or two, and sometimes three on the same test. If a prole does not > know how to do those, she will suck. I am a poster-child example of that > sad condition: I haven?t mastered the skill-set, but my son did, so now > when we play a match he wins every time. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 18 19:56:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:56:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: References: <008501d7f3a0$dfd25760$9f770620$@rainier66.com> <003001d7f437$9acc5520$d064ff60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006d01d7f449$4beb22d0$e3c16870$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 10:37 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] probability All of which is to say that what is being taught is unavailable to the average student, who is very unlikely to take precalc. I still vote for a class in, say 11th grade, which teaches everyday probability and everyday finance. Most people are unaware of just how powerful compound interest is. Oh well. English is taught every year starting about the 7th grade, isn't it? Most of it is useless to the average student, since grammar takes a back seat to literature. Result; college students don't know grammar. Some people in our group are not good at it. Biggest problem out there: nobody asked me! bill w Billw, the standard engineering core curriculum has been the subject of debate for the last coupla decades. A highly credible authority made the case that the standard analytic geometry followed by 4 quarters of calculus followed by one quarter of differential equations followed by one quarter of linear algebra with one lonely statistics course tossed in there anywhere is all wrong. He argued that the 4 quarters of calculus is too much in times when integration is done by numerical methods anyway. We should be teaching the engineering math-core as three quarters of statistics, one based on calculus and one based on linear algebra. I reluctantly came to agree with him. Explanation later. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 19:57:31 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 14:57:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 11:54 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > At this point, why do we care? Labs all over, including ours, no doubt, > are making all kinds of things, likely much worse, and accidents will > happen. Lab people are human. Does anyone think that China knowingly > released this virus? Then it's an issue. If not, then not. > ### You are channeling Ms Clinton commenting on the deaths of the American soldiers she sacrificed in Benghazi," ?What difference, at this point, does it make?' Wrongdoing matters in ways that differ from mere happenstance. Failure to punish emboldens wrongdoers, both the original ones, and the onlookers. The aptly named PLA (People's Liberation Army, the organization in charge of keeping the Chinese people unfree) openly runs a research program to develop ethnically targeted bioweapons. I watched a video by the intrepid laowhy86 where he shows screenshots from official PLA publications which describe the plan to collect genomic information about the Han and about all other ethnicities, and then develop bioweapons that spare the Han and slaughter the rest of us. This is not a conspiracy theory. It's not an accident that the Chicoms banned the export of genomic information about the Han while avidly collecting the genomes of everybody else. Recently I heard one titillating tidbit of information - the Chinese government just banned the sale of used lab animals to the public. Apparently some enterprising lab administrators were selling used dogs and other animals (maybe even bats?) for human consumption, as a little sideline business to supplement their incomes. What a country! Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 20:33:03 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 14:33:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am not channeling anyone, much less Clinton. My point was simply that we are not going to know what happened. China, for whatever reason, is not going to let the truth out, assuming that it knows. We can punish them just in case they were doing bad things. What is that going to accomplish? We have to work with whoever is in charge there even if they are combinations of Stalin, Idi Amin and Mao. We are trying to punish them for the Uighur situation, and that's not going to accomplish anything either. We can make big noises and let the world know we don't like some things other countries do. But are the noises having a beneficial effect on the perpetrators? I suspect that there is no data on that. The noises may make the politicians look good. Changing other countries, even with boots on the ground war, has not happened. And is China going to change because we are not 'officially' entering the Olympic Games? Hah, and furthermore, Hah. bill w On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 2:03 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 11:54 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> At this point, why do we care? Labs all over, including ours, no doubt, >> are making all kinds of things, likely much worse, and accidents will >> happen. Lab people are human. Does anyone think that China knowingly >> released this virus? Then it's an issue. If not, then not. >> > > ### You are channeling Ms Clinton commenting on the deaths of the American > soldiers she sacrificed in Benghazi," ?What difference, at this point, > does it make?' > > Wrongdoing matters in ways that differ from mere happenstance. Failure to > punish emboldens wrongdoers, both the original ones, and the onlookers. > > The aptly named PLA (People's Liberation Army, the organization in charge > of keeping the Chinese people unfree) openly runs a research program to > develop ethnically targeted bioweapons. I watched a video by the intrepid > laowhy86 where he shows screenshots from official PLA publications which > describe the plan to collect genomic information about the Han and about > all other ethnicities, and then develop bioweapons that spare the Han and > slaughter the rest of us. This is not a conspiracy theory. It's not an > accident that the Chicoms banned the export of genomic information about > the Han while avidly collecting the genomes of everybody else. > > Recently I heard one titillating tidbit of information - the Chinese > government just banned the sale of used lab animals to the public. > Apparently some enterprising lab administrators were selling used dogs and > other animals (maybe even bats?) for human consumption, as a little > sideline business to supplement their incomes. What a country! > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 20:56:42 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 15:56:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 3:33 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I am not channeling anyone, much less Clinton. > ### The similarity of words and their context is striking. > My point was simply that we are not going to know what happened. > ### We know what happened. > China, for whatever reason, is not going to let the truth out, assuming > that it knows. We can punish them just in case they were doing bad > things. What is that going to accomplish? We have to work with whoever is > in charge there even if they are combinations of Stalin, Idi Amin and Mao. > ### Well, feel free to work with Stalin, Idi Amin and Mao. I'd rather work against. > Changing other countries, even with boots on the ground war, has not > happened. And is China going to change because we are not 'officially' > entering the Olympic Games? Hah, and furthermore, Hah. bill w > ### Oh, to the contrary. Countries change all the time, from within and after nudges from outside. The Chicoms claim the Mandate of Heaven. That belief, and some heavy boots stomping on a lot of faces, is what keeps Chicom in power. In communist regimes face was everything, which is why they sent those who didn't clap their hands hard enough straight to Lubljanka, never to be seen again. But when the whole world humiliates every Chicom that sets his foot outside the country they oppress, it's hard to claim the oppression is Heaven's will. We owe it to the Chinese people, who bear the brunt of Chicom oppression, to contain, resist and deny Chicom, here, there and everywhere. "Solidarno??" is a Polish word that's understood in many parts of the world. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Dec 18 21:51:04 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 21:51:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e367dc1-c456-0c55-4ef0-ae57ea6380be@zaiboc.net> On 18/12/2021 01:23, Darin Sunley wrote: > Creating a digital duplicate of oneself that will live forever would > be great, but I'd kinda like to be able to upload too. Much harder > problem. Er,... You're going to have to explain the difference between 'creating a digital duplicate of oneself' and uploading. I always understood the two to be synonymous, as I'm sure many other people here do too. Ben From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 23:27:13 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:27:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] spam Message-ID: Is there some sort of rule of the web that anyone can send you anything if you are subscribed to the site? I ask because I am getting spam. Gmail asks when I hit the spam icon, if I want to unsubscribe. Trouble is, I have never heard of some of those people. I certainly never subscribed. Are you getting that too? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 23:47:27 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 23:47:27 +0000 Subject: [ExI] spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 at 23:30, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Is there some sort of rule of the web that anyone can send you anything if you are subscribed to the site? I ask because I am getting spam. Gmail asks when I hit the spam icon, if I want to unsubscribe. > > Trouble is, I have never heard of some of those people. I certainly never subscribed. > > Are you getting that too? bill w > _______________________________________________ If you are sure that you have never subscribed to that site then DO NOT CLICK on unsubscribe, See: BillK From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 00:02:53 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:02:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: <6e367dc1-c456-0c55-4ef0-ae57ea6380be@zaiboc.net> References: <6e367dc1-c456-0c55-4ef0-ae57ea6380be@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: To my mind, "uploading" implies a continuity of identity. I don't just want to die while watching another separate mind that has my memories and personality live forever in a computer. /I/ want to live forever in a computer. On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 2:52 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 18/12/2021 01:23, Darin Sunley wrote: > > Creating a digital duplicate of oneself that will live forever would > > be great, but I'd kinda like to be able to upload too. Much harder > > problem. > > Er,... You're going to have to explain the difference between 'creating > a digital duplicate of oneself' and uploading. I always understood the > two to be synonymous, as I'm sure many other people here do too. > > Ben > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 00:25:46 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 16:25:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid origin In-Reply-To: References: <001901d7f2da$bc72a020$3557e060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 12:03 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The aptly named PLA (People's Liberation Army, the organization in charge > of keeping the Chinese people unfree) openly runs a research program to > develop ethnically targeted bioweapons. I watched a video by the intrepid > laowhy86 where he shows screenshots from official PLA publications which > describe the plan to collect genomic information about the Han and about > all other ethnicities, and then develop bioweapons that spare the Han and > slaughter the rest of us. This is not a conspiracy theory. It's not an > accident that the Chicoms banned the export of genomic information about > the Han while avidly collecting the genomes of everybody else. > I am reminded once again of the story I once wrote, that started when some group tried creating ethnically targeted bioweapons but they got released without the targeting, resulting in the extinction of the entire human race save the substantial minority who were able to evacuate to lunar colonies. That chapter of the story was titled, "Oops". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 00:39:36 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:39:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <6e367dc1-c456-0c55-4ef0-ae57ea6380be@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 at 00:05, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > > To my mind, "uploading" implies a continuity of identity. I don't just want to die while watching another separate mind that has my memories and personality live forever in a computer. /I/ want to live forever in a computer. > > _______________________________________________ There are already companies engaged in creating facsimiles of deceased people. See: Quote: HereAfter AI is one of a number of startups promising digital immortality through chatbots, AI and even holograms like the ones of Holocaust survivors? stories. A Japanese project even envisions robots that look and act like the dead. ------------- The chatbots use recorded speech to imitate the deceased person's speech. The AI will continue to improve the imitation. BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 01:03:52 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 12:03:52 +1100 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <6e367dc1-c456-0c55-4ef0-ae57ea6380be@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 at 11:04, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > To my mind, "uploading" implies a continuity of identity. I don't just > want to die while watching another separate mind that has my memories and > personality live forever in a computer. /I/ want to live forever in a > computer. > It's the difference between making a copy and destroying the original, as per the Star Trek teleporter, or making a copy and preserving the original, as per the Star Trek teleporter when it malfunctions. In the former case, you will have continuity of identity with the copy, while in the latter, you have a 50% chance of having continuity with the copy or the original. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 01:18:17 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 19:18:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks billk On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 5:49 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 at 23:30, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Is there some sort of rule of the web that anyone can send you anything > if you are subscribed to the site? I ask because I am getting spam. Gmail > asks when I hit the spam icon, if I want to unsubscribe. > > > > Trouble is, I have never heard of some of those people. I certainly > never subscribed. > > > > Are you getting that too? bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > If you are sure that you have never subscribed to that site then DO > NOT CLICK on unsubscribe, > See: < > https://www.rd.com/list/why-unsubscribing-from-spam-emails-can-backfire/> > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 21:21:14 2021 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 14:21:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] When your mother died... Message-ID: My mother died a week ago, and I am grieving. And so If I may ask, how did those of you who have lost your mothers deal with it? I have very bittersweet memories of my mother and she was far from perfect, but I will say that she did love my brother and I. Eighteen years had gone by since I had last seen her face to face, and I feel guilt over my letting that happen. But at least my brother was there to take her into his home, during her final two months. And so she was surrounded by loving adults and lots of kids. It was only during her final week of life, that my brother and the doctors realized she was actually dying. She passed peacefully, in her sleep, while my brother's wife was reading to her. My mother was convinced that there is an afterlife, and for the past five years had spoken of her desire to die, having lived her life and feeling ready to move on. I wonder how the role of mothers will change/grow as humanity develops transhumanist technologies, and people have vigorous lifespans measured in multiple centuries. I envision it being somewhat like what was depicted in the Old Testament, with Methuselah-like figures who were surrounded by many generations of offspring. And of course as these life extending technologies mature, they will produce future mothers who will not be old in appearance and frail. What a strange new world it will be... John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 07:19:03 2021 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 08:19:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] When your mother died... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 7:21 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > My mother died a week ago, and I am grieving. And so If I may ask, how did those of you who have lost your mothers deal with it? > I am very sorry John. I went to see my mother frequently in her last months in 2001. The last time I brought Frank Tipler's book and read it frequently to burn in my mind the idea that somehow I would see my mother again (I didn't buy the detailed mechanics of Tipler's technological resurrection theory, just the core concept that technology will resurrect the dead of the past). Now I have many other books (including mine) that explore this idea, and contemplating the idea of resurrection is how I cope with grief. > I have very bittersweet memories of my mother and she was far from perfect, but I will say that she did love my brother and I. Eighteen years had gone by since I had last seen her face to face, and I feel guilt over my letting that happen. But at least my brother was there to take her into his home, during her final two months. And so she was surrounded by loving adults and lots of kids. It was only during her final week of life, that my brother and the doctors realized she was actually dying. She passed peacefully, in her sleep, while my brother's wife was reading to her. My mother was convinced that there is an afterlife, and for the past five years had spoken of her desire to die, having lived her life and feeling ready to move on. > > I wonder how the role of mothers will change/grow as humanity develops transhumanist technologies, and people have vigorous lifespans measured in multiple centuries. I envision it being somewhat like what was depicted in the Old Testament, with Methuselah-like figures who were surrounded by many generations of offspring. And of course as these life extending technologies mature, they will produce future mothers who will not be old in appearance and frail. What a strange new world it will be... > > John > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 19 07:27:31 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 23:27:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] When your mother died... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010b01d7f4a9$e290a6a0$a7b1f3e0$@rainier66.com> Subject: Re: [ExI] When your mother died... On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 7:21 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > My mother died a week ago, and I am grieving. And so If I may ask, how did those of you who have lost your mothers deal with it? John > I am so sorry to hear of this John. May strength and courage come to you as you work through this difficult time of sorrow. spike From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Dec 19 13:33:45 2021 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 08:33:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] When your mother died... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9aa10d9ca549adaeb43ddd383f9416b8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> On Sun, December 19, 2021 16:21, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > My mother died a week ago, and I am grieving. And so If I may ask, how did > those of you who have lost your mothers deal with it? > Much sympathy on your loss, John. I'm sure you'll find there are *many* things you wish you'd asked her but now is too late. That was one of my discoveries. And the questions are not necessarily the kind of things a person would write down in a memoir, but other odd questions that now will never have answers. I think I am now the oldest of my blood-kin. Parents and siblings are gone. That's a strange feeling, for me. I don't feel like "an old one" or "a wise one"... more like a remnant that will be swept away soon, one that has about outlived its time. If you are able, stay in touch with your brother, and whatever you can do to help him in this situation, offer to do it. Sometimes even at a distance help can be given. We can hope your mom found the afterlife she hoped for. Regards, MB From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 14:40:45 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 08:40:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] When your mother died... In-Reply-To: <9aa10d9ca549adaeb43ddd383f9416b8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> References: <9aa10d9ca549adaeb43ddd383f9416b8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: Really sorry to hear that, John. My experience is that you don't get over it, ever. You just keep on. My Dad died in '59 and Mama in '81 and I still miss them every day. But it's not a sad thing. bill w On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 7:50 AM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, December 19, 2021 16:21, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: > > My mother died a week ago, and I am grieving. And so If I may ask, how > did > > those of you who have lost your mothers deal with it? > > > > Much sympathy on your loss, John. I'm sure you'll find there are *many* > things you wish you'd asked her but now is too late. That was one of my > discoveries. And the questions are not necessarily the kind of things a > person would write down in a memoir, but other odd questions that now will > never have answers. > > I think I am now the oldest of my blood-kin. Parents and siblings are > gone. That's a strange feeling, for me. I don't feel like "an old one" > or "a wise one"... more like a remnant that will be swept away soon, one > that has about outlived its time. > > If you are able, stay in touch with your brother, and whatever you can do > to help him in this situation, offer to do it. Sometimes even at a > distance help can be given. > > We can hope your mom found the afterlife she hoped for. > > Regards, > MB > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 16:45:10 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 09:45:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <6e367dc1-c456-0c55-4ef0-ae57ea6380be@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Surely color blind people (basically use 2 primary colorness qualities to represent visual knowledge) and normal trichromats (basically 3 primary colorness qualities) are going to at least want to upgraded what they represent their visual world with 4 primary colorness qualities, like the rare tetrachromats do. To say nothing of likely being able to discover primary colors no human has ever experienced before, and mapping even more of the visual spectrum into maybe 10 or more colorness qualities. To say nothing of representing information other than visual information. Would you guys always want to use the same colorness pallet to represent everything with, or would you ever want to change things up a bit? I, for one, as a plain old trichromat, can't wait to find out what that 4th primary color is like tetrochromats can experience, to say nothing of discovering and finding out what other colorness qualities exist in this world.. On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 6:05 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 at 11:04, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> To my mind, "uploading" implies a continuity of identity. I don't just >> want to die while watching another separate mind that has my memories and >> personality live forever in a computer. /I/ want to live forever in a >> computer. >> > > It's the difference between making a copy and destroying the original, as > per the Star Trek teleporter, or making a copy and preserving the original, > as per the Star Trek teleporter when it malfunctions. In the former case, > you will have continuity of identity with the copy, while in the latter, > you have a 50% chance of having continuity with the copy or the original. > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 18:21:48 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:21:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <6e367dc1-c456-0c55-4ef0-ae57ea6380be@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 11:47 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Surely color blind people (basically use 2 primary colorness qualities to > represent visual knowledge) and normal trichromats (basically 3 primary > colorness qualities) are going to at least want to upgraded what they > represent their visual world with 4 primary colorness qualities, like the > rare tetrachromats do. To say nothing of likely being able to > discover primary colors no human has ever experienced before, and mapping > even more of the visual spectrum into maybe 10 or more colorness > qualities. To say nothing of representing information other than visual > information. > > Would you guys always want to use the same colorness pallet to represent > everything with, or would you ever want to change things up a bit? > > I, for one, as a plain old trichromat, can't wait to find out what that > 4th primary color is like tetrochromats can experience, to say nothing of > discovering and finding out what other colorness qualities exist in this > world.. > Have you seen this: http://www.vischeck.com/daltonize/ I am colorblind. It's not digital, there is simply a reduced number of detectors for red. You've forced me to overthink redness for years. :) I would hope to bypass the simulation of light and color and ineffable redness... to just read the object's properties directly from the metadata information. Partly this is informed by my understanding as a programmer. Life in a metaverse may at first be semi-recognizable in the way first "pages" on the internet were similar to newspaper or journal articles... but i suspect we'll quickly abandon internet-informed modalities as we gain comfort with not-yet-invented UX conventions. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 18:37:08 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 10:37:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 2:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Do any of you know what is taught in public schools through high school? > Subject matter that far too many people remain ignorant of despite having technically been taught it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guessmyneeds at yahoo.com Sun Dec 19 18:43:54 2021 From: guessmyneeds at yahoo.com (Sherry Knepper) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:43:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] When your mother died... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1051618231.2000541.1639939434134@mail.yahoo.com> John, so sorry.? Ho0efully the Tipler technique, quantum archaeology or something else will bring her back.? Unless there is an afterlife we will all go to, as long as humanity survives as a species there will be a search for a way to bring everyone back.? If i am still sentient at the time we have something, i would like to participate, even if it is experimental. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 1:26 AM, John Grigg via extropy-chat wrote: My mother died a week ago, and I am grieving. And so If I may ask, how did those of you who have lost your mothers deal with it?? I have very bittersweet memories of my mother and she was far from perfect, but I will say that she did love my brother and I. Eighteen years had gone by since I had last seen her face to face, and I feel guilt over my letting that happen. But at least my brother was there to take her into his home, during her final two months. And so she was surrounded by loving adults and lots of kids. It was only during her final week of life, that my brother and the doctors realized she was actually dying. She passed peacefully, in her sleep,?while my brother's wife was reading to her. My mother was convinced that there is an afterlife, and for the past five years had spoken of her desire to die, having lived her life and feeling ready to move on.?? I wonder how the role of mothers will change/grow as humanity develops transhumanist technologies, and people have vigorous?lifespans measured in multiple centuries. I envision it being somewhat like what was depicted in the Old Testament, with Methuselah-like figures who were surrounded by many generations of offspring. And of course as these life extending technologies mature, they will produce future mothers who will not be old in appearance and frail. What a strange new world it will be...? John?? ? ?? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 19 21:36:57 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 15:36:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: <006d01d7f449$4beb22d0$e3c16870$@rainier66.com> References: <008501d7f3a0$dfd25760$9f770620$@rainier66.com> <003001d7f437$9acc5520$d064ff60$@rainier66.com> <006d01d7f449$4beb22d0$e3c16870$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I taught undergraduate stat and never looked any further into it - too busy with other classes and not all that interested. But what you say leads me to believe that there is a whole world of stat that I know nothing about and had no idea it existed. bill w On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 1:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Saturday, December 18, 2021 10:37 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] probability > > > > All of which is to say that what is being taught is unavailable to the > average student, who is very unlikely to take precalc. I still vote for a > class in, say 11th grade, which teaches everyday probability and everyday > finance. Most people are unaware of just how powerful compound interest > is. Oh well. English is taught every year starting about the 7th grade, > isn't it? Most of it is useless to the average student, since grammar > takes a back seat to literature. Result; college students don't know > grammar. Some people in our group are not good at it. > > > > Biggest problem out there: nobody asked me! bill w > > > > > > > > Billw, the standard engineering core curriculum has been the subject of > debate for the last coupla decades. A highly credible authority made the > case that the standard analytic geometry followed by 4 quarters of calculus > followed by one quarter of differential equations followed by one quarter > of linear algebra with one lonely statistics course tossed in there > anywhere is all wrong. He argued that the 4 quarters of calculus is too > much in times when integration is done by numerical methods anyway. We > should be teaching the engineering math-core as three quarters of > statistics, one based on calculus and one based on linear algebra. > > > > I reluctantly came to agree with him. > > > > Explanation later. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 00:21:32 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 16:21:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1DDBE14B-A1B4-4AFA-BD63-E4B9769A950F@gmail.com> On Dec 17, 2021, at 5:24 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > My point is that they don?t dispute the numbers, they say that they are more afraid of the vaccine even if the numbers are correct. They have a problem with mathematics, or perhaps they have a superstitious belief that despite the numbers they are personally at greater risk from the vaccine. There?s the issue of when someone is told that therapy X (say, a drug or an operation) has a 10% chance of being fatal versus them being told it has a 90% of not being fatal. Both mean the same thing, but most people will assume the former is worse than the latter. Regards, Dan From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 00:45:12 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 00:45:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] probability In-Reply-To: <1DDBE14B-A1B4-4AFA-BD63-E4B9769A950F@gmail.com> References: <1DDBE14B-A1B4-4AFA-BD63-E4B9769A950F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 at 00:24, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > There?s the issue of when someone is told that therapy X (say, a drug or an operation) has a 10% chance of being fatal versus them being told it has a 90% of not being fatal. Both mean the same thing, but most people will assume the former is worse than the latter. > > Regards, > > Dan > _______________________________________________ What upsets me about saying 10% chance of death is that it is very different from saying 10% chocolate in ice cream. All the people don't get 10% dead, 1/10th of the people get 100% dead and I don't like the sound of that. BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 08:46:17 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 03:46:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] When your mother died... In-Reply-To: References: <9aa10d9ca549adaeb43ddd383f9416b8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 9:42 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Really sorry to hear that, John. > > My experience is that you don't get over it, ever. You just keep on. My > Dad died in '59 and Mama in '81 and I still miss them every day. But it's > not a sad thing. bill w > ### No, we don't get over it. I am still not OK with my father dying without cryonic suspension. I kept bugging him about it, offered to pay for Alcor membership but my parents decided to be cremated. At least he didn't suffer before dying, most likely sudden cardiac death. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 08:52:11 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 03:52:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <6e367dc1-c456-0c55-4ef0-ae57ea6380be@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 7:04 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > To my mind, "uploading" implies a continuity of identity. I don't just > want to die while watching another separate mind that has my memories and > personality live forever in a computer. /I/ want to live forever in a > computer. > ### The uploading procedure could be done with incremental, module-by-module shutdown of brain function and progressive takeover of function by the computer model over a period of months, while maintaining full and unified consciousness. Would that satisfy your feeling of identity? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Dec 19 16:51:28 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 16:51:28 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f15ece5-1b6d-22dd-9e1f-4cf477aabc79@zaiboc.net> On 19/12/2021 13:48, Stathis wrote: > On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 at 11:04, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > To my mind, "uploading" implies a continuity?of identity. I don't > just want to die while watching another separate mind that has my > memories and personality live forever in a computer. /I/ want to > live forever in a computer. > > > It's the difference between making a copy and destroying the original, > as per the Star Trek teleporter, or making a copy and preserving the > original, as per the Star Trek teleporter when it malfunctions. In the > former case, you will have continuity of identity with the copy, while > in the latter, you have a 50% chance of having continuity with the > copy or the original. > There is no difference, assuming the 'copy' is of high-enough fidelity. There is continuity of identity in both cases, has to be, or the process hasn't worked. It's the old story of the dividing amoeba. Which of the two daughter amoebas is the original, and which the copy? Does the question even mean anything? Uploading doesn't just imply a continuity of identity, it necessarily involves it. Otherwise it isn't uploading. Whether there are one or a million copies of the 'original mind' doesn't matter (the whole terminology is confusing, in fact. Using the word 'copy' causes a lot of misunderstanding, I feel*). There is still continuity of identity. And if you just can't wrap your head around the concept of branching identity, well, welcome to the future. Ben * Tell you what, let's not 'copy' anything at all. Let's just transfer the pattern of a mind to one or more other substrates. Everybody happy now? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 09:14:32 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 20:14:32 +1100 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: <6f15ece5-1b6d-22dd-9e1f-4cf477aabc79@zaiboc.net> References: <6f15ece5-1b6d-22dd-9e1f-4cf477aabc79@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 at 20:01, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 19/12/2021 13:48, Stathis wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 at 11:04, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> To my mind, "uploading" implies a continuity of identity. I don't just >> want to die while watching another separate mind that has my memories and >> personality live forever in a computer. /I/ want to live forever in a >> computer. >> > > It's the difference between making a copy and destroying the original, as > per the Star Trek teleporter, or making a copy and preserving the original, > as per the Star Trek teleporter when it malfunctions. In the former case, > you will have continuity of identity with the copy, while in the latter, > you have a 50% chance of having continuity with the copy or the original. > > There is no difference, assuming the 'copy' is of high-enough fidelity. > There is continuity of identity in both cases, has to be, or the process > hasn't worked. > > It's the old story of the dividing amoeba. Which of the two daughter > amoebas is the original, and which the copy? Does the question even mean > anything? > > Uploading doesn't just imply a continuity of identity, it necessarily > involves it. Otherwise it isn't uploading. Whether there are one or a > million copies of the 'original mind' doesn't matter (the whole terminology > is confusing, in fact. Using the word 'copy' causes a lot of > misunderstanding, I feel*). There is still continuity of identity. And if > you just can't wrap your head around the concept of branching identity, > well, welcome to the future. > But there is a problem because if there are multiple copies they are not telepathically linked. Each copy feels itself to be the unique continuation of the original, because that is how our psychology has evolved. This is the case even if each copy knows, logically, that all the other copies have equal claim to be the continuation of the original. Given that this is how human minds work, expectations about the future when there are multiple copies work probabilistically. It is also what happens if the Many Worlds interpretation of QM is true. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Dec 19 17:33:11 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 17:33:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: <6f15ece5-1b6d-22dd-9e1f-4cf477aabc79@zaiboc.net> References: <6f15ece5-1b6d-22dd-9e1f-4cf477aabc79@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <97f55b9f-06e9-8b0a-07a1-b9619340f775@zaiboc.net> Ben wrote: >* Tell you what, let's not 'copy' anything at all. Let's just transfer the pattern of a mind to one or more other substrates. Everybody happy now? Of course, "the pattern of a mind" is a redundant phrase. I should have said "Let's just transfer a mind to one or more other substrates" Ben From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 14:41:15 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 08:41:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] china and Hillary Message-ID: Just for the record: I support Hillary in no way shape or form, and Rafal's intimations that I do hint of ad hominem arguments, which coming from a man of intelligence, is surprising. I hate every authoritarian government, but the fact is that we have massive economic interactions with China and we have to work with who's in charge. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon Dec 20 16:28:00 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 08:28:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] When your mother died... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20211220082800.Horde.Q-y7Ai1PjfXUUnKGyQdIICU@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Grigg: > My mother died a week ago, and I am grieving. And so If I may ask, how did > those of you who have lost your mothers deal with it? My condolences, John. I am sorry for your loss. My mother died when I was 11. I turned to drugs and alcohol at an early age because of it. Fortunately, I had other loving family and friends pull me back from the brink of self-destruction and I was able to finish school and go on to college. If Einstein was right, then your mom is still there, alive in your past. There are worlds upon worlds where the light of her birth has yet to reach. If Everett was right, then there are worlds where she is yet to be born. Worlds where she yet lives. Worlds where she outlives you and is even more grieved then you are now. Funny that of all the bioethicists and apologists for death that I have read over the years, the best justification for death I have ever heard came from none other than Dracula played by Claes Bang, who in the TV miniseries "Dracula" said, "Dying gives you size. It's the mountaintop from which your whole life is at last visible, from beginning to end. Death completes you." Something about the simple 4-dimensional geometry of that statement resonates with me. Best Wishes, Stuart LaForge From sparge at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 16:46:00 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 11:46:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Probability, covid, online education Message-ID: I just ran across this blog post that touches on a few things we've talked about recently: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2021/12/base-rate-fallacy/ [image: covid-prob.jpg] *When a headline says "half of hospitalizations are vaccinated" it is innumerate fearmongering that will make people who are bad at math misinterpret that as "vaccines are only 50% effective", or worse lies.An increasing ratio of hospitalized vaccinated is an inevitable result of increasing vaccination rates. It is a marker of success, not failure.E.g.: "About two-thirds of people who die on UK roads are wearing a seatbelt, but this is a consequence of usage rates of nearly 99%."Explaining probability, statistics and combinatorics to the public is really, really hard. This stuff is extremely nonintuitive even without dealing with the grifters. Here's a really good, easy to understand video on Bayes theorem.* -- The video is by 3Blue1Brown, who did the Newton's fractal video Spike posted here. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: covid-prob.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95327 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 18:44:19 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 13:44:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] china and Hillary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 9:43 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Just for the record: I support Hillary in no way shape or form, and > Rafal's intimations that I do hint of ad hominem arguments, which coming > from a man of intelligence, is surprising. > ### I do not hint you are supporting Hillary, it's just your statement sounded incredibly similar to what she said, although of course in a somewhat different context. ---------------- > > I hate every authoritarian government, but the fact is that we have > massive economic interactions with China and we have to work with who's in > charge. > ### There are many shades of gray when it comes to working with someone, even if workplace violence is excluded as an option... some of them involve stubborn resistance, stonewalling, undermining and giving very bad reviews. I'd rather pay more for tchotchkes and support punitive trade restrictions, embargoes, and other sanctions, if that's what's needed to bring the Chicom low and give the Chinese people a fighting chance against the regime that's feeding on their blood. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 20 18:50:03 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 10:50:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Probability, covid, online education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004701d7f5d2$676b6df0$364249d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat ? Explaining probability, statistics and combinatorics to the public is really, really hard. This stuff is extremely nonintuitive even without dealing with the grifters. Here's a really good, easy to understand video on Bayes theorem. -- >?The video is by 3Blue1Brown, who did the Newton's fractal video Spike posted here. -Dave Grant Sanderson is god! Anyone who says otherwise, I will have you flogged for blasphemy! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 18:53:06 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 10:53:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Probability, covid, online education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > *Explaining probability, statistics and combinatorics to the public is > really, really hard.* > No it isn't. You have to remember what they don't know, and check your phrasing to see how it would come off from that point of view, but that's not hard to do so long as you remember to do it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 18:57:57 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 13:57:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The quick and easy path to uploading In-Reply-To: References: <6f15ece5-1b6d-22dd-9e1f-4cf477aabc79@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 4:16 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 at 20:01, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> But there is a problem because if there are multiple copies they are not > telepathically linked. Each copy feels itself to be the unique continuation > of the original, because that is how our psychology has evolved. This is > the case even if each copy knows, logically, that all the other copies have > equal claim to be the continuation of the original. > ### Absolutely. Our intuitive sense of self evolved in the context of uploading not being available and when considering uploading it throws up alerts that don't make sense once looked at rationally. The context under which the sense of self evolved will soon no longer be valid. It's very similar to our appetite for sugar that evolved under food scarcity but today brings a lot of grief to people living among plenty. This is a good reason to reach deep down into your mind with the cold scalpel of reason and excise feelings that are counterproductive. I did and my feelings about upload copying are thoroughly modernized now. If I had multiple copies of me made, each copy would treat the other as self in almost all situations, up to and including being willing to die to protect other copies. Like a band of brothers, but more so. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 20:56:40 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 07:56:40 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Probability, covid, online education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 at 03:47, Dave S via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I just ran across this blog post that touches on a few things we've talked > about recently: > > https://www.jwz.org/blog/2021/12/base-rate-fallacy/ > > [image: covid-prob.jpg] > > > > > > > *When a headline says "half of hospitalizations are vaccinated" it is > innumerate fearmongering that will make people who are bad at math > misinterpret that as "vaccines are only 50% effective", or worse lies.An > increasing ratio of hospitalized vaccinated is an inevitable result of > increasing vaccination rates. It is a marker of success, not failure.E.g.: > "About two-thirds of people who die on UK roads are wearing a seatbelt, but > this is a consequence of usage rates of nearly 99%."Explaining probability, > statistics and combinatorics to the public is really, really hard. This > stuff is extremely nonintuitive even without dealing with the grifters. > Here's a really good, easy to understand video > on Bayes theorem.* > The figures are even more skewed in favour of the vaccinated when you consider the vaccination rate of the sun population that mostly ends up in hospital, older people and people with chronic illnesses, and when you consider those in ICU or intubated. With the vaccine, you are less likely to get COVID, if you get COVID you are less likely to become very unwell and end up in hospital, if you end up in hospital you are less likely to go to ICU, if you go to ICU you are less likely to die. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: covid-prob.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95327 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 20 21:19:12 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 15:19:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] china and Hillary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am for anything that works with recalcitrant people, friends or enemies. I just want some data on what is effective and I suspect there isn't any. Sanctions will just bring opposing sanctions and hurt nor help anyone. Nagging by human rights organizations has been going on a long time and just results in being told to stay out of internal affairs. What works? That's what I want to know. I suspect that any concessions are made behind closed doors with promises never to reveal such. bill w On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 12:46 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 9:43 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Just for the record: I support Hillary in no way shape or form, and >> Rafal's intimations that I do hint of ad hominem arguments, which coming >> from a man of intelligence, is surprising. >> > > ### I do not hint you are supporting Hillary, it's just your statement > sounded incredibly similar to what she said, although of course in a > somewhat different context. > > ---------------- > >> >> I hate every authoritarian government, but the fact is that we have >> massive economic interactions with China and we have to work with who's in >> charge. >> > > ### There are many shades of gray when it comes to working with someone, > even if workplace violence is excluded as an option... some of them involve > stubborn resistance, stonewalling, undermining and giving very bad reviews. > I'd rather pay more for tchotchkes and support punitive trade restrictions, > embargoes, and other sanctions, if that's what's needed to bring the Chicom > low and give the Chinese people a fighting chance against the regime that's > feeding on their blood. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Tue Dec 21 18:03:26 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 10:03:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] china and Hillary Message-ID: <20211221100326.Horde.W86we7iSG1UMJ0e6ICOWv9k@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > ---------------- > >> >> I hate every authoritarian government, but the fact is that we have >> massive economic interactions with China and we have to work with who's in >> charge. >> > > ### There are many shades of gray when it comes to working with someone, > even if workplace violence is excluded as an option... some of them involve > stubborn resistance, stonewalling, undermining and giving very bad reviews. No bad reviews allowed. At least not on Amazon... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amazon-agreed-to-scrub-poor-reviews-of-xi-on-chinas-site-7tzgjhmt6 ----------begin excerpt------------------ "Amazon quietly removed criticism of President Xi?s books by scrubbing bad reviews, ratings and comments from its Chinese site, it has emerged. The US retail giant agreed to Beijing?s demand to have anything below a five-star review of Xi Jinping?s book The Governance of China removed from Amazon.cn about two years ago, Reuters reported, citing two unidentified sources. The move is the latest example of western tech companies willing to work with Chinese censors for access to the country?s massive consumer market. A search of Xi Jinping returned 82 results on Amazon.cn, and the vast majority of books either written by or written about the president had the ratings and comments disabled." ----------end excerpt-------------- This clown reminds me of the Roman Emperor Nero who thought he was the world's greatest performance artist and demanded that everyone applaud his musical or acting performances. He once proclaimed a week of games that included art contests in poetry, oration, and music. He then entered the contest himself, and awarded himself first prize in all three events. > I'd rather pay more for tchotchkes and support punitive trade restrictions, > embargoes, and other sanctions, if that's what's needed to bring the Chicom > low and give the Chinese people a fighting chance against the regime that's > feeding on their blood. Even without deliberate sanctions, China's export model is heavily reliant on cheap fossil fuels and rampant environmental pollution. It will be interesting to see how future fuel prices stack up against the price of U.S. labor and automation. It is a shame that Greta Thunberg cannot safely scold the CCP's dirty coal burning the way she does western governments for lesser offenses. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 21 18:27:59 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 10:27:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] china and Hillary In-Reply-To: <20211221100326.Horde.W86we7iSG1UMJ0e6ICOWv9k@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211221100326.Horde.W86we7iSG1UMJ0e6ICOWv9k@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <001f01d7f698$7be92da0$73bb88e0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >...No bad reviews allowed. At least not on Amazon... ... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amazon-agreed-to-scrub-poor-reviews-of-xi-on-chinas-site-7tzgjhmt6 >...----------begin excerpt------------------ "Amazon quietly removed criticism of President Xi?s books by scrubbing bad reviews, ratings and comments from its Chinese site, it has emerged. >...The US retail giant agreed to Beijing?s demand to have anything below a five-star review of Xi Jinping?s book The Governance of China removed from Amazon.cn about two years ago...Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ We find out two years after the fact Amazon sculptures reviews. This suggests they are doing that with other books and authors as well. spike From sparge at gmail.com Tue Dec 21 20:53:19 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 15:53:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 10:03 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > < > https://summit.news/2021/08/05/un-special-rapporteur-on-torture-authorities-are-viewing-their-own-people-as-an-enemy/ > > > > ?Something fundamental is going wrong. In all regions of the world, > the authorities are apparently increasingly viewing their own people > as an enemy,? he stated. > Somewhat delayed response here... We now know that covid isn't like ebola, where exposing someone to it is basically manslaughter. So violence in enforcing mandates is excessive and unnecessary. As is violence in opposing mandates. So when the next pandemic comes along, how do we decide which countermeasures make sense and which are government overreach? Especially when little is known about the pathogen? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 21 23:43:14 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 17:43:14 -0600 Subject: [ExI] china and Hillary In-Reply-To: <001f01d7f698$7be92da0$73bb88e0$@rainier66.com> References: <20211221100326.Horde.W86we7iSG1UMJ0e6ICOWv9k@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> <001f01d7f698$7be92da0$73bb88e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Amazon book reviews as political weapons or a form of concession to a foreign power. Do we think the State Dept. or White House put pressure on Amazon? I imagine that book censorship is pretty severe in China, but would they reciprocate, and if not, then what? Is there a dirtier business than politics? The Mafia, maybe? bill w On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 12:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > > > >...No bad reviews allowed. At least not on Amazon... > > ... > > > https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/amazon-agreed-to-scrub-poor-reviews-of-xi-on-chinas-site-7tzgjhmt6 > > > >...----------begin excerpt------------------ "Amazon quietly removed > criticism of President Xi?s books by scrubbing bad reviews, ratings and > comments from its Chinese site, it has emerged. > > >...The US retail giant agreed to Beijing?s demand to have anything below > a five-star review of Xi Jinping?s book The Governance of China removed > from Amazon.cn about two years ago...Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > We find out two years after the fact Amazon sculptures reviews. This > suggests they are doing that with other books and authors as well. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 21 23:49:33 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 17:49:33 -0600 Subject: [ExI] book Message-ID: I will certain pay full price for this one: The Man from the Future: The Visionary Life of John von Neumann Hardcover ? February 22, 2022 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 21 23:59:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 15:59:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] china and Hillary In-Reply-To: References: <20211221100326.Horde.W86we7iSG1UMJ0e6ICOWv9k@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> <001f01d7f698$7be92da0$73bb88e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003e01d7f6c6$d2b78900$78269b00$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] china and Hillary >?Amazon book reviews as political weapons or a form of concession to a foreign power. Do we think the State Dept. or White House put pressure on Amazon? We don?t know if they stopped at the foreign power. If they did this for one author, we must presume they did it for many. >?I imagine that book censorship is pretty severe in China, but would they reciprocate, and if not, then what? Amazon isn?t the government. Amazon isn?t required to do what either government asks. They have lost credibility with that revelation. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 01:46:02 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 20:46:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 3:55 PM Dave S via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > So when the next pandemic comes along, how do we decide which > countermeasures make sense and which are government overreach? Especially > when little is known about the pathogen? > ### Speaking as a minarchist (in case anybody wonders, I became a conditional minarchist in the past,oh, two years or so), almost all government-mandated countermeasures are overreach, since it's not the government's job to manage pandemics. Anybody who is stupid enough to get out of their house without absolute necessity when ebola is afoot deserves whatever befalls him. Anybody who is timid enough to stay at home because of covid (except for the old and decrepit ones) deserves to suffer all the losses resulting from his decision. It is simply not true that pandemic responses have to be coordinated. As long as true information about the given disease of the day is promptly made available, individuals should be able to choose their course of action, and suffer the consequences or gain the rewards. If a disease is bad enough, reasonable people will quarantine themselves, no need for a lockdown. Unreasonable people will make unreasonable decisions and may end up being culled from the population by the infectious agent. They make bad decisions and pay for them with their own lives, and yes, we free people have the inalienable right to keep or throw away our lives, as we see fit. This is very similar to the question of what to do about people who engage in extreme sports, and end up killing themselves - it would be wrong and immoral to outlaw e.g. extreme skiing or birdman flying or freeform mountain climbing. By the same token, it would be wrong and immoral to have a law forbidding people to walk out of their home in the midst of a pandemic. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 02:05:20 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:05:20 +1100 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 12:47, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 3:55 PM Dave S via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> So when the next pandemic comes along, how do we decide which >> countermeasures make sense and which are government overreach? Especially >> when little is known about the pathogen? >> > > ### Speaking as a minarchist (in case anybody wonders, I became a > conditional minarchist in the past,oh, two years or so), almost all > government-mandated countermeasures are overreach, since it's not the > government's job to manage pandemics. Anybody who is stupid enough to get > out of their house without absolute necessity when ebola is afoot deserves > whatever befalls him. Anybody who is timid enough to stay at home because > of covid (except for the old and decrepit ones) deserves to suffer all the > losses resulting from his decision. > > It is simply not true that pandemic responses have to be coordinated. As > long as true information about the given disease of the day is promptly > made available, individuals should be able to choose their course of > action, and suffer the consequences or gain the rewards. If a disease is > bad enough, reasonable people will quarantine themselves, no need for a > lockdown. Unreasonable people will make unreasonable decisions and may end > up being culled from the population by the infectious agent. They make bad > decisions and pay for them with their own lives, and yes, we free people > have the inalienable right to keep or throw away our lives, as we see fit. > > This is very similar to the question of what to do about people who engage > in extreme sports, and end up killing themselves - it would be wrong and > immoral to outlaw e.g. extreme skiing or birdman flying or freeform > mountain climbing. By the same token, it would be wrong and immoral to have > a law forbidding people to walk out of their home in the midst of a > pandemic. > But if a mountain climber comes near you it can't kill you. And if it could, it wouldn't be reasonable to stay indoors because of all the mountain climbers out there who cannot be easily identified and refuse to take available measures to reduce the risk to others. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 03:44:49 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 22:44:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 9:05 PM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > But if a mountain climber comes near you it can't kill you. And if it > could, it wouldn't be reasonable to stay indoors because of all the > mountain climbers out there who cannot be easily identified and refuse to > take available measures to reduce the risk to others. > > ### I don't understand what you wrote at all. Can you explain what you are trying to say, in a direct and detailed fashion? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Wed Dec 22 11:07:12 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 11:07:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> But if a mountain climber comes near you it can't kill you. And if it >> could, it wouldn't be reasonable to stay indoors because of all the >> mountain climbers out there who cannot be easily identified and refuse to >> take available measures to reduce the risk to others. > ### I don't understand what you wrote at all. Can you explain what you are > trying to say, in a direct and detailed fashion? It's pretty clear what that refers to, if you just use a little imagination. People who engage in risky activities that might hurt or kill themselves, with rare exception, aren't a risk to others. They are only a risk to themselves. We don't avoid walking in cities because we might get hurt or die because someone decided to parachute off of a building. People who ignore science and ignore precautions in a pandemic don't just put themselves in peril. They are a potential risk to anyone around them. They are unilaterally making decisions for others. The same kind of logic is used to rationalize waste, pollution, abuse of natural resources, et cetera: why should I have to care about my effect on anyone else? I will do what benefits me, no matter the consequences to myself or others. I feel sorry for those that believe their right to possibly infect others supercedes others' right to avoid infection. Only a tremendous amount of selfishness and a criminal lack of reflection can lead to such beliefs. John From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 16:27:12 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:27:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But the really important thing is you've found a way to feel morally superior to almost everyone around you. On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 4:08 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> But if a mountain climber comes near you it can't kill you. And if it > >> could, it wouldn't be reasonable to stay indoors because of all the > >> mountain climbers out there who cannot be easily identified and refuse > to > >> take available measures to reduce the risk to others. > > > ### I don't understand what you wrote at all. Can you explain what you > are > > trying to say, in a direct and detailed fashion? > > It's pretty clear what that refers to, if you just use a little > imagination. > > People who engage in risky activities that might hurt or kill themselves, > with rare exception, aren't a risk to others. They are only a risk to > themselves. We don't avoid walking in cities because we might get hurt or > die because someone decided to parachute off of a building. > > People who ignore science and ignore precautions in a pandemic don't just > put themselves in peril. They are a potential risk to anyone around them. > They are unilaterally making decisions for others. > > The same kind of logic is used to rationalize waste, pollution, abuse of > natural resources, et cetera: why should I have to care about my effect on > anyone else? I will do what benefits me, no matter the consequences to > myself or others. > > I feel sorry for those that believe their right to possibly infect others > supercedes others' right to avoid infection. Only a tremendous amount of > selfishness and a criminal lack of reflection can lead to such beliefs. > > John > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 17:54:32 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 11:54:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wise words, John Klos bill w On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 5:09 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> But if a mountain climber comes near you it can't kill you. And if it > >> could, it wouldn't be reasonable to stay indoors because of all the > >> mountain climbers out there who cannot be easily identified and refuse > to > >> take available measures to reduce the risk to others. > > > ### I don't understand what you wrote at all. Can you explain what you > are > > trying to say, in a direct and detailed fashion? > > It's pretty clear what that refers to, if you just use a little > imagination. > > People who engage in risky activities that might hurt or kill themselves, > with rare exception, aren't a risk to others. They are only a risk to > themselves. We don't avoid walking in cities because we might get hurt or > die because someone decided to parachute off of a building. > > People who ignore science and ignore precautions in a pandemic don't just > put themselves in peril. They are a potential risk to anyone around them. > They are unilaterally making decisions for others. > > The same kind of logic is used to rationalize waste, pollution, abuse of > natural resources, et cetera: why should I have to care about my effect on > anyone else? I will do what benefits me, no matter the consequences to > myself or others. > > I feel sorry for those that believe their right to possibly infect others > supercedes others' right to avoid infection. Only a tremendous amount of > selfishness and a criminal lack of reflection can lead to such beliefs. > > John > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 22 18:40:52 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 10:40:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mythbusters follow-on Message-ID: <00a401d7f763$73436aa0$59ca3fe0$@rainier66.com> For those of us who loved Mythbusters and still miss it now that there are no more new ones, they influenced others to make analogous videos. This is the best one I have seen to date, Smarter Every Day. When I was taking mechanical engineering in college, my most interesting class was shock mechanics. The math was crazy complicated, and even after all that, the equations described propagation of shock mechanics way better than what the shock waves would do upon interaction with stuff. In this video at about 10 minute mark they are showing what happens when a baseball is fired into a jar of cup-cake sprinkles at a speed of M1.5. The equations predict a shock wave would propagate radially from the point of first impact and secondary shock waves would go everywhere, but I wasn?t aware that it could be captured on video. The best view of that gorgeous shock wave can be seen in the bit at 10 minutes 30 seconds. What I didn?t know and surprised me is that after impact, individual sprinkles shattered. I knew shock waves do weird things, but that one surprised me. Check it out: What does a Gong Sound Like when Hit with a 1189mph Baseball? - Smarter Every Day 267 - YouTube I salute the legacy of Mythbusters and the whole attitude behind it: equations are our friends, but the best way to find out for sure is to set it up and try it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 23 02:54:00 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:54:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mythbusters follow-on In-Reply-To: <00a401d7f763$73436aa0$59ca3fe0$@rainier66.com> References: <00a401d7f763$73436aa0$59ca3fe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003101d7f7a8$5703c430$050b4c90$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? Earlier I wrote about a video where some yahoos were firing baseballs to M1.5 and hitting stuff. That really got my wheels spinning. At about 9:23, the instant where the baseball strikes the jar of donut sprinkles, you can see a flash of light: >?What does a Gong Sound Like when Hit with a 1189mph Baseball? - Smarter Every Day 267 - YouTube I viewed that a dozen times trying to figure out what reaction would cause that flash, and I think I have the answer. Regardless of how small a time slice one takes, momentum is conserved over that time interval and energy is conserved over that time interval. Those two principles lead to the discovery of shock waves and hydrodynamic compression waves, even without a baseball cannon. (It would be tragic indeed to miss out on the baseball cannon just because we calculated what would happen.) Dividing time into small increments makes it a lot easier to estimate all the stuff that happened during that interval. For Yanks among us, do recognize that these calculations are a loooot easier if you go over into metric. We can do a lot of it in our heads, not even scrounging an envelope to do BOTECs, for we know since we were kids that the flash of lightning is followed by thunder, about 5 seconds per mile of distance. We all know that because we dang well remember stuff we were told when we were in first grade (too bad about all the cool stuff we learned in college (which doesn?t stick nearly as well.)) The beauty of metric: speed of sound about 5 seconds per mile so about 3 seconds per kilometer so about 300 meters per second so 300 millimeters per millisecond so about 0.3 millimeters per microsecond. (Isn?t that simple? (a prole can do that in her head (no need to mess up a perfectly good scrap envelope.))) The baseball is going M1.5, so we can round to about half a millimeter per microsecond. Half a millimeter is easy to envision, that?s the thickness of one of those leads in the clicky mechanical pencils (or about the thickness of a strand of uncooked angel hair pasta (depending on where the hair sample is taken from the angel (but I digress.))) Impact to impact plus one microsecond. Using the principles of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy, we can estimate the thickness of the zone which knows about the impact is about a millimeter in thickness. Reasoning: the speed of sound in the medium (the donut sprinkles) plus the velocity of the baseball and I might be missing some other important factors, but it occurred to me why that flash is visible on the video at 9.23, which is? if one takes the volume of that spherical shell the size of a baseball about a millimeter thick, we see that all the kinetic energy dissipated by the ball over that microsecond is in that spherical shell. That conservation of energy requirement predicts the temperature of the donut sprinkles and the air that is also in that shell must get to a coupla thousand Kelvin until that shell gets thick enough to contain all that energy. Result of stuff at a coupla thousand Kelvin: a flash of light. One last insight please: after the impact we can focus on any single donut sprinkle and see that it shatters into a jillion pieces as the shock wave passes over it and accelerates it faster than it can hold itself together. The energy in a shock wave is proportional to its area (again because of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy) so we can watch what happens to the sprinkles about 80 microseconds after impact, run the clock backwards, estimate the size of the impact-affected zone, and we realize that those sprinkles must have been shattered into bits small enough that a bunch of chemical bonds in the sugar were mechanically broken. All that energy goes somewhere too. Result: flash! One of many things for which I am deeply grateful is that I was born late enough in history to witness in super slow motion a baseball travelling over a thousand miles an hour strike a jar of donut sprinkles. Decades from now on my deathbed or freezebed, I will have a satisfied smile on my face from having witnessed that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 23 19:16:55 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 11:16:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mythbusters follow-on In-Reply-To: <003101d7f7a8$5703c430$050b4c90$@rainier66.com> References: <00a401d7f763$73436aa0$59ca3fe0$@rainier66.com> <003101d7f7a8$5703c430$050b4c90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002c01d7f831$a6737770$f35a6650$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: mythbusters follow-on From: spike at rainier66.com > ? >?Earlier I wrote about a video where some yahoos were firing baseballs to M1.5 and hitting stuff. That really got my wheels spinning. >?At about 9:23, the instant where the baseball strikes the jar of donut sprinkles, you can see a flash of light: >>?What does a Gong Sound Like when Hit with a 1189mph Baseball? - Smarter Every Day 267 - YouTube >?I viewed that a dozen times trying to figure out what reaction would cause that flash, and I think I have the answer?spike Whelp, I blew it yesterday, damn. I ran some estimates, not even calculations, just ROMs and realized my explanation for the flash was off: insufficient energy by a good coupla orders of magnitude in the van der Waals forces between the molecules. If there is that much chemical bond energy in donut sprinkles, eating even one sprinkly donut would wreck your stomach even before it got to the intestine, just from dissolving. Then a cool idea occurred to me. A donut sprinkle is made of sugar primarily, with some butter fat or olive oil or something to dissolve and form it probably, but chemically donut sprinkles arent all that different from? Diesel fuel (except that it is already partially burned (in a sense (because it carries some oxygen along with it))) coupla carbon rings rather than straight C12H26 in a alkane configuration as in the primary component of Diesel. Even if all of the weak bonds between the sugar molecules broke, that still isn?t enough energy to cause that flash at 9:23, and I don?t think a baseball has anywhere near enough energy to break down the sugar molecules by impact. Then it occurred to me: when the baseball strikes the jar and it shatters, the sprinkles in the compression zone break down as the shock wave passes over them, turning them into sugar molecules. The compression zone forward of the ball is air, already hot, already compressed. In a Diesel engine, fuel is introduced into a confined space with air already hot, already compressed. Result: combustion. My new theory is that for the short interval of time, perhaps a coupla microseconds, there is enough air to ignite the sugar molecules, after which there is too much fuel and not enough air, so the combustion phase is short, and still would be, even if we had a way to get the baseball travelling faster than M1.5. A faster ball would have more air in the compression zone, so more of the sprinkles might burn, but the duration of the combustion might be even shorter with a faster ball. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 19:25:47 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:25:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mythbusters follow-on In-Reply-To: <002c01d7f831$a6737770$f35a6650$@rainier66.com> References: <00a401d7f763$73436aa0$59ca3fe0$@rainier66.com> <003101d7f7a8$5703c430$050b4c90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d7f831$a6737770$f35a6650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 23, 2021, 2:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >?I viewed that a dozen times trying to figure out what reaction would > cause that flash, and I think I have the answer?spike > Maybe this? https://recipes.howstuffworks.com/question505.htm > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 19:37:18 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 19:37:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] mythbusters follow-on In-Reply-To: <002c01d7f831$a6737770$f35a6650$@rainier66.com> References: <00a401d7f763$73436aa0$59ca3fe0$@rainier66.com> <003101d7f7a8$5703c430$050b4c90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d7f831$a6737770$f35a6650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 at 19:19, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > My new theory is that for the short interval of time, perhaps a coupla microseconds, there is enough air to ignite the sugar molecules, after which there is too much fuel and not enough air, so the combustion phase is short, and still would be, even if we had a way to get the baseball travelling faster than M1.5. A faster ball would have more air in the compression zone, so more of the sprinkles might burn, but the duration of the combustion might be even shorter with a faster ball. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Well, you did ask ... :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 23 20:18:28 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 12:18:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mythbusters follow-on In-Reply-To: References: <00a401d7f763$73436aa0$59ca3fe0$@rainier66.com> <003101d7f7a8$5703c430$050b4c90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d7f831$a6737770$f35a6650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004e01d7f83a$3fd2f320$bf78d960$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] mythbusters follow-on On Thu, Dec 23, 2021, 2:19 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?I viewed that a dozen times trying to figure out what reaction would cause that flash, and I think I have the answer?spike >?Maybe this? https://recipes.howstuffworks.com/question505.htm Mike I thought that might be triboluminescence when I first looked at it. There would be some light emitted if there are enough sugar crystals in the sprinkles, but now I don?t think that is enough energy to explain the flash easily visible at 9:23. That looks to me like combustion taking place for a brief instance. To figure it out, we would need to put the sprinkles, the baseball cannon inside a closed container, chemically scrub out the carbon dioxide but leave the air, then fire the ball, see if there is any carbon dioxide in the container. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 23 20:35:18 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 12:35:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mythbusters follow-on In-Reply-To: References: <00a401d7f763$73436aa0$59ca3fe0$@rainier66.com> <003101d7f7a8$5703c430$050b4c90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d7f831$a6737770$f35a6650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007401d7f83c$99cdda50$cd698ef0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 11:37 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] mythbusters follow-on On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 at 19:19, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > My new theory is that for the short interval of time, perhaps a coupla microseconds, there is enough air to ignite the sugar molecules, after which there is too much fuel and not enough air, so the combustion phase is short, and still would be, even if we had a way to get the baseball travelling faster than M1.5. A faster ball would have more air in the compression zone, so more of the sprinkles might burn, but the duration of the combustion might be even shorter with a faster ball. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Well, you did ask ... :) < https://www.newsbiscuit.com/post/well-you-did-ask> BillK _______________________________________________ Ja, the whole notion isn't particularly relevant to anything. It brought back fond memories. When I was in undergraduate engineering, a new professor came who had stellar credentials: PhD from CalTech in shock wave mechanics. He was clearly very bright but wasn't a particularly effective professor for undergrads. He could see we were not impressed with him, so he uncorked a lecture I will never forget: he started into what he studied for his PhD thesis. This blew our minds and changed our attitudes. He volunteered to teach a class in compression wave mechanics, make it a one-hour upper division elective. Six of us took the class. Turns out the guy really was as brilliant as his resume, a damn good teacher when he was on familiar ground. We mechanical engineers got a bit of a complex because the electrical engineering students studied Maxwell's Equations in their last year while we went off studying mechanical properties of materials and that sorta thing. Their equations were cooler than ours. Until... we got to this shock wave class. Then the differential equations to study those things were way cooler than anything Maxwell ever thought of. A prole had to really have his differential equations and the more advanced functions going for her before she would have a chance at compression waves. Speaking of which... those of you who are travelling this week by plane, if you ride a B737, try to get in seat A6 or F6. Then as you come in for a landing, sometimes a visible standing wave will form right where that leading edge of the engine where the intake cowl meets the main cowl, the silver part mees the blue part in this photo: I included this photo because it shows something I have looked for but never seen in person: an intake vortex on a running jet engine. It requires just exactly the right conditions to form: hasta be close to the dew point on a perfectly still day. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7788 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 03:53:38 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 22:53:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 6:08 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > People who ignore science and ignore precautions in a pandemic don't just > put themselves in peril. They are a potential risk to anyone around them. > They are unilaterally making decisions for others. > ### Really? Did you think it over before committing this to the keyboard? Let me upack the logic here for you. Let's assume that a population of well-informed individuals who are at risk of a deadly infection if they leave their homes but are safe if they stay in (but can still starve to death, suffer a heart attack, get restless and unhappy and prone to drinking themselves to death, etc.). Let's assume they are free to choose whether to stay at home or venture out. Obviously, every single individual who ventures out knowingly assumes the risk of infection, therefore every single individual they meet is also an individual who knowingly assumed the risk of being infected. Not a single person who chooses to avoid infection can be infected by them, since the avoidants are all, every single one of them, staying at home. This means that every single person infected is somebody who knowingly accepted the risk of infection before leaving home. In every single dyadic interaction that results in a new infection, the infecter and the infectee both made the decision for themselves, and are paying the consequences, in a bilateral decision. Since we posit well-informed individuals, their decisions weigh the individual costs and benefits of staying vs. venturing, and are therefore individually and collectively efficient, and therefore morally superior to enforced lockdowns, which discard individual opinions in favor of political grandstanding and witless moralizing. Obviously, this situation is not analogous to environmental pollution, where the polluter affects the lives of non-polluters. A more apt analogy is that of driving on a public road, which involves some risk of killing another driver, or being killed by another driver (we try to reduce that risk by various means but it remains non-zero). All drivers assume a certain risk of dying when they get on the road, a risk they can entirely avoid by staying at home. Yet, we normal people don't accuse all drivers of "tremendous amount of selfishness and a criminal lack of self reflection". -------------------------------------- > > The same kind of logic is used to rationalize waste, pollution, abuse of > natural resources, et cetera: why should I have to care about my effect on > anyone else? I will do what benefits me, no matter the consequences to > myself or others. > > I feel sorry for those that believe their right to possibly infect others > supercedes others' right to avoid infection. Only a tremendous amount of > selfishness and a criminal lack of reflection can lead to such beliefs. > > ### It's easy to get on the moral high horse and spout about "logic", it's much more difficult to actually think things through, isn't it, John? Being too lazy to think is bad enough when it happens in an individual but it gets much worse when lazy, witless moralizing results in a virtue signaling frenzy that plunges the whole world in turmoil that cost tens of trillions of dollars and millions of lives. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 04:09:05 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:09:05 +1100 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 at 03:28, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > But the really important thing is you've found a way to feel morally > superior to almost everyone around you. > No, most people in the world take the appropriate precautions to avoid infecting others, so you should just feel that you?re an average citizen. On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 4:08 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> But if a mountain climber comes near you it can't kill you. And if it >> >> could, it wouldn't be reasonable to stay indoors because of all the >> >> mountain climbers out there who cannot be easily identified and refuse >> to >> >> take available measures to reduce the risk to others. >> >> > ### I don't understand what you wrote at all. Can you explain what you >> are >> > trying to say, in a direct and detailed fashion? >> >> It's pretty clear what that refers to, if you just use a little >> imagination. >> >> People who engage in risky activities that might hurt or kill themselves, >> with rare exception, aren't a risk to others. They are only a risk to >> themselves. We don't avoid walking in cities because we might get hurt or >> die because someone decided to parachute off of a building. >> >> People who ignore science and ignore precautions in a pandemic don't just >> put themselves in peril. They are a potential risk to anyone around them. >> They are unilaterally making decisions for others. >> >> The same kind of logic is used to rationalize waste, pollution, abuse of >> natural resources, et cetera: why should I have to care about my effect >> on >> anyone else? I will do what benefits me, no matter the consequences to >> myself or others. >> >> I feel sorry for those that believe their right to possibly infect others >> supercedes others' right to avoid infection. Only a tremendous amount of >> selfishness and a criminal lack of reflection can lead to such beliefs. >> >> John >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 04:24:49 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:24:49 +1100 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 at 14:55, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 6:08 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> People who ignore science and ignore precautions in a pandemic don't just >> put themselves in peril. They are a potential risk to anyone around them. >> They are unilaterally making decisions for others. >> > > ### Really? Did you think it over before committing this to the keyboard? > > Let me upack the logic here for you. Let's assume that a population of > well-informed individuals who are at risk of a deadly infection if they > leave their homes but are safe if they stay in (but can still starve to > death, suffer a heart attack, get restless and unhappy and prone to > drinking themselves to death, etc.). Let's assume they are free to choose > whether to stay at home or venture out. > > Obviously, every single individual who ventures out knowingly assumes the > risk of infection, therefore every single individual they meet is also an > individual who knowingly assumed the risk of being infected. Not a single > person who chooses to avoid infection can be infected by them, since the > avoidants are all, every single one of them, staying at home. This means > that every single person infected is somebody who knowingly accepted the > risk of infection before leaving home. In every single dyadic interaction > that results in a new infection, the infecter and the infectee both made > the decision for themselves, and are paying the consequences, in a > bilateral decision. Since we posit well-informed individuals, their > decisions weigh the individual costs and benefits of staying vs. venturing, > and are therefore individually and collectively efficient, and therefore > morally superior to enforced lockdowns, which discard individual opinions > in favor of political grandstanding and witless moralizing. > > Obviously, this situation is not analogous to environmental pollution, > where the polluter affects the lives of non-polluters. A more apt analogy > is that of driving on a public road, which involves some risk of killing > another driver, or being killed by another driver (we try to reduce that > risk by various means but it remains non-zero). All drivers assume a > certain risk of dying when they get on the road, a risk they can entirely > avoid by staying at home. Yet, we normal people don't accuse all drivers of > "tremendous amount of selfishness and a criminal lack of self reflection". > The correct driving analogy is that anyone who wants to can flout the road rules with impunity. An equilibrium may be reached with fewer people driving, but then everyone loses because either the risk of accidents increases or the utility of the road system or fewer people are willing to drive and the utility of the road system decreases. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 04:55:06 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 23:55:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 11:25 PM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 at 14:55, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 6:08 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> People who ignore science and ignore precautions in a pandemic don't >>> just >>> put themselves in peril. They are a potential risk to anyone around >>> them. >>> They are unilaterally making decisions for others. >>> >> >> ### Really? Did you think it over before committing this to the keyboard? >> >> Let me upack the logic here for you. Let's assume that a population of >> well-informed individuals who are at risk of a deadly infection if they >> leave their homes but are safe if they stay in (but can still starve to >> death, suffer a heart attack, get restless and unhappy and prone to >> drinking themselves to death, etc.). Let's assume they are free to choose >> whether to stay at home or venture out. >> >> Obviously, every single individual who ventures out knowingly assumes the >> risk of infection, therefore every single individual they meet is also an >> individual who knowingly assumed the risk of being infected. Not a single >> person who chooses to avoid infection can be infected by them, since the >> avoidants are all, every single one of them, staying at home. This means >> that every single person infected is somebody who knowingly accepted the >> risk of infection before leaving home. In every single dyadic interaction >> that results in a new infection, the infecter and the infectee both made >> the decision for themselves, and are paying the consequences, in a >> bilateral decision. Since we posit well-informed individuals, their >> decisions weigh the individual costs and benefits of staying vs. venturing, >> and are therefore individually and collectively efficient, and therefore >> morally superior to enforced lockdowns, which discard individual opinions >> in favor of political grandstanding and witless moralizing. >> >> Obviously, this situation is not analogous to environmental pollution, >> where the polluter affects the lives of non-polluters. A more apt analogy >> is that of driving on a public road, which involves some risk of killing >> another driver, or being killed by another driver (we try to reduce that >> risk by various means but it remains non-zero). All drivers assume a >> certain risk of dying when they get on the road, a risk they can entirely >> avoid by staying at home. Yet, we normal people don't accuse all drivers of >> "tremendous amount of selfishness and a criminal lack of self reflection". >> > > The correct driving analogy is that anyone who wants to can flout the road > rules with impunity. An equilibrium may be reached with fewer people > driving, but then everyone loses because either the risk of accidents > increases or the utility of the road system or fewer people are willing to > drive and the utility of the road system decreases. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > ### You are not even wrong. Completely off the subject. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 24 05:03:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:03:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? Message-ID: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 05:33:37 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 00:33:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common > cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu > mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still > don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other > brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. > ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere lack of lethality will end it ;( Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 11:50:53 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 11:50:53 +0000 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 at 03:57, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Being too lazy to think is bad enough when it happens in an individual but it gets much worse when lazy, witless moralizing results in a virtue signaling frenzy that plunges the whole world in turmoil that cost tens of trillions of dollars and millions of lives. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ As I see it, the problem with Rafal's most excellent logic is that it fails when faced with the problem of dealing with a very mixed group of people, usually called a nation. Remember that half the population is below average intelligence. (Just culling that section of the population meets general disapproval and only moves the problem to a new segment of the population). The above average intelligence segment of the population all hold one or more weird or crazy beliefs and argue constantly about whose beliefs are more wrong or outrageous. (The definition of weird or crazy changes over time as well). It is very difficult (impossible, really) to make laws or rules which are suitable for everyone, so we end up muddling through chaos. But as a society, we have to try. An epidemic just makes the problems more obvious. Of course, it doesn't help when individuals or companies take advantage of the situation to benefit or enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 14:25:40 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:25:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Staying at home is not an option everyone has. Not everyone delivers to homes. If infected, one should wear a mask so as to not infect others. Period. What part of responsibility in protecting others do you not understand? bill w On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 9:56 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 6:08 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> People who ignore science and ignore precautions in a pandemic don't just >> put themselves in peril. They are a potential risk to anyone around them. >> They are unilaterally making decisions for others. >> > > ### Really? Did you think it over before committing this to the keyboard? > > Let me upack the logic here for you. Let's assume that a population of > well-informed individuals who are at risk of a deadly infection if they > leave their homes but are safe if they stay in (but can still starve to > death, suffer a heart attack, get restless and unhappy and prone to > drinking themselves to death, etc.). Let's assume they are free to choose > whether to stay at home or venture out. > > Obviously, every single individual who ventures out knowingly assumes the > risk of infection, therefore every single individual they meet is also an > individual who knowingly assumed the risk of being infected. Not a single > person who chooses to avoid infection can be infected by them, since the > avoidants are all, every single one of them, staying at home. This means > that every single person infected is somebody who knowingly accepted the > risk of infection before leaving home. In every single dyadic interaction > that results in a new infection, the infecter and the infectee both made > the decision for themselves, and are paying the consequences, in a > bilateral decision. Since we posit well-informed individuals, their > decisions weigh the individual costs and benefits of staying vs. venturing, > and are therefore individually and collectively efficient, and therefore > morally superior to enforced lockdowns, which discard individual opinions > in favor of political grandstanding and witless moralizing. > > Obviously, this situation is not analogous to environmental pollution, > where the polluter affects the lives of non-polluters. A more apt analogy > is that of driving on a public road, which involves some risk of killing > another driver, or being killed by another driver (we try to reduce that > risk by various means but it remains non-zero). All drivers assume a > certain risk of dying when they get on the road, a risk they can entirely > avoid by staying at home. Yet, we normal people don't accuse all drivers of > "tremendous amount of selfishness and a criminal lack of self reflection". > -------------------------------------- > >> >> The same kind of logic is used to rationalize waste, pollution, abuse of >> natural resources, et cetera: why should I have to care about my effect >> on >> anyone else? I will do what benefits me, no matter the consequences to >> myself or others. >> >> I feel sorry for those that believe their right to possibly infect others >> supercedes others' right to avoid infection. Only a tremendous amount of >> selfishness and a criminal lack of reflection can lead to such beliefs. >> >> > ### It's easy to get on the moral high horse and spout about "logic", it's > much more difficult to actually think things through, isn't it, John? > > Being too lazy to think is bad enough when it happens in an individual but > it gets much worse when lazy, witless moralizing results in a virtue > signaling frenzy that plunges the whole world in turmoil that cost tens of > trillions of dollars and millions of lives. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 24 14:57:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 06:57:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] covid or cold? On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >?I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere lack of lethality will end it ;( Rafal On the contrary Rafal, it is becoming more apparent all the time that the power-grabbers are now grasping at straws. They are bringing on enormously-damaging lockdowns and harming commerce in order to protect us from? a cold. This is exposing power-grabbers for what they are and what they were all along. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 15:02:11 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:02:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Do we know the death rate by omicron, Spike? bill w On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 8:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid or cold? > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > >?I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common > cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu > mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still > don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other > brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. > > > > ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid > variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by > multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to > poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere > lack of lethality will end it ;( > > > > Rafal > > > > > > On the contrary Rafal, it is becoming more apparent all the time that the > power-grabbers are now grasping at straws. They are bringing on > enormously-damaging lockdowns and harming commerce in order to protect us > from? a cold. This is exposing power-grabbers for what they are and what > they were all along. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 24 15:17:48 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 07:17:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> From: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] covid or cold? Do we know the death rate by omicron, Spike? bill w We don?t and can?t get at that info easily in the USA, so we rely on South Africa where omicron showed up first. That fourth wave looks different from the other three: When they had the first death of a USA patient with omicron, they were very quiet about the circumstances. They wouldn?t tell us how many gunshot wounds he had for instance. The South Africans were the first to tell us omicron was not a particularly severe malady. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john at ziaspace.com Fri Dec 24 16:21:59 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:21:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Really? Did you think it over before committing this to the keyboard? Yes, I did. > Let me upack the logic here for you. Let's assume that a population of > well-informed individuals who are at risk of a deadly infection if they > leave their homes but are safe if they stay in... This isn't the case at all. We have well meaning people who care about themselves, their families and people around them. They are conscientious and careful, they wear masks, and they've gotten vaccinated. This is a majority of people. Then we have people who are in excellent health and/or think that the effects of Covid are exaggerated, and therefore don't care much about whether they get Covid, but who aren't selfish and care enough about others to vaccinate, wear masks and otherwise participate in trying to avoid spreading Covid. Then you have people who want to force their beliefs on others. It's not enough for them to passively participate, or to avoid public places. They don't care about possibly affecting others. Trying to say that the last group is equal to the first two and are equally "making the decision for themselves" is... Well, it's ridiculous. You're really, really stretching here, so much so that I find it difficult to know whether to take you seriously. You're essentially saying that engaging in risky public behavior that can hurt others is fine, because others have made the decision to participate in being public. So, by extension, you're saying that if 5% of the population wants to do something to scare the other 95% in to staying in their houses, they should be allowed, because, again, we're all making our own decisions about whether to participate in anything public. You're also suggesting that the concept of "public good" has little or no weight nor value. If this is how you feel, then we fundamentally disagree, and we can simply agree to disagree. But I know for a fact that you would be screaming bloody murder if the roles were reversed. Imagine this: what if I had an aerosol form of a Covid vaccine and walked around in public spraying it everywhere? And what if my attitude was that if you don't want to be vaccinated, then simply don't go out in public. Would you meekly stay home and accept that we're both making decisions for ourselves? No, of course you wouldn't. But I seriously doubt you could acknowledge this. I brought up pollution not as an analogy but as an example of how self-righteousness and selfishness are similar between polluters and anti-vaccine people: they both require the idea that the individual's desires outweigh any possible impact to others. But if you want to make an analogy of it, I'd suggest that it's similar to people who drive while on the phone not caring about their potential impact on others. Again, there's no equivalence between those who don't want to be told to not be on their phones and everyone else. We'd accuse people who insist they should be allowed to drive while using their phones of a "tremendous amount of selfishness and a criminal lack of self reflection", but obviously not all drivers :) And I haven't the slightest clue about what you're talking about in your non-sequitur about "lazy, witless moralizing" that has somehow led to "turmoil that cost tens of trillions of dollars and millions of lives". I wish there were more substance in what you're writing, because I REALLY want to understand why people anti-vaccine and anti-mask people don't really care about others. Outrage about masks, negative test results, or vaccination requirements is somehow equivalent and just as bad as, in your collective minds, possibly harming or killing people. If someone killed someone you love via Covid, would you really be OK with the idea that it could've been avoided, but avoiding is too onerous? Would you even answer that question honestly? John From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 18:15:12 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 12:15:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What little I know: viruses that kill their hosts are, regarding evolution, not very successful. So they mutate - it's as if they know that being too toxic is not a good strategy for proliferating. bill w On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 9:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid or cold? > > > > Do we know the death rate by omicron, Spike? bill w > > > > > > We don?t and can?t get at that info easily in the USA, so we rely on South > Africa where omicron showed up first. That fourth wave looks different > from the other three: > > > > > > When they had the first death of a USA patient with omicron, they were > very quiet about the circumstances. They wouldn?t tell us how many gunshot > wounds he had for instance. The South Africans were the first to tell us > omicron was not a particularly severe malady. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 18:24:53 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 12:24:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, I have read many thousands of essays in our groups, and I don't know of a better one. Splendid. Bill W On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 10:23 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Really? Did you think it over before committing this to the keyboard? > > Yes, I did. > > > Let me upack the logic here for you. Let's assume that a population of > > well-informed individuals who are at risk of a deadly infection if they > > leave their homes but are safe if they stay in... > > This isn't the case at all. We have well meaning people who care about > themselves, their families and people around them. They are conscientious > and careful, they wear masks, and they've gotten vaccinated. This is a > majority of people. > > Then we have people who are in excellent health and/or think that the > effects of Covid are exaggerated, and therefore don't care much about > whether they get Covid, but who aren't selfish and care enough about > others to vaccinate, wear masks and otherwise participate in trying to > avoid spreading Covid. > > Then you have people who want to force their beliefs on others. It's not > enough for them to passively participate, or to avoid public places. They > don't care about possibly affecting others. > > Trying to say that the last group is equal to the first two and are > equally "making the decision for themselves" is... Well, it's ridiculous. > You're really, really stretching here, so much so that I find it difficult > to know whether to take you seriously. > > You're essentially saying that engaging in risky public behavior that can > hurt others is fine, because others have made the decision to participate > in being public. So, by extension, you're saying that if 5% of the > population wants to do something to scare the other 95% in to staying in > their houses, they should be allowed, because, again, we're all making our > own decisions about whether to participate in anything public. You're also > suggesting that the concept of "public good" has little or no weight nor > value. > > If this is how you feel, then we fundamentally disagree, and we can simply > agree to disagree. > > But I know for a fact that you would be screaming bloody murder if the > roles were reversed. > > Imagine this: what if I had an aerosol form of a Covid vaccine and walked > around in public spraying it everywhere? And what if my attitude was that > if you don't want to be vaccinated, then simply don't go out in public. > Would you meekly stay home and accept that we're both making decisions for > ourselves? No, of course you wouldn't. But I seriously doubt you could > acknowledge this. > > > I brought up pollution not as an analogy but as an example of how > self-righteousness and selfishness are similar between polluters and > anti-vaccine people: they both require the idea that the individual's > desires outweigh any possible impact to others. > > But if you want to make an analogy of it, I'd suggest that it's similar to > people who drive while on the phone not caring about their potential > impact on others. Again, there's no equivalence between those who don't > want to be told to not be on their phones and everyone else. We'd accuse > people who insist they should be allowed to drive while using their phones > of a "tremendous amount of selfishness and a criminal lack of self > reflection", but obviously not all drivers :) > > And I haven't the slightest clue about what you're talking about in your > non-sequitur about "lazy, witless moralizing" that has somehow led to > "turmoil that cost tens of trillions of dollars and millions of lives". > > I wish there were more substance in what you're writing, because I REALLY > want to understand why people anti-vaccine and anti-mask people don't > really care about others. Outrage about masks, negative test results, or > vaccination requirements is somehow equivalent and just as bad as, in your > collective minds, possibly harming or killing people. If someone killed > someone you love via Covid, would you really be OK with the idea that it > could've been avoided, but avoiding is too onerous? Would you even answer > that question honestly? > > John > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 18:25:21 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:25:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 9:57 AM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid or cold? > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > >?I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common > cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu > mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still > don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other > brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. > > > > ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid > variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by > multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to > poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere > lack of lethality will end it ;( > > > > Rafal > > > > > > On the contrary Rafal, it is becoming more apparent all the time that the > power-grabbers are now grasping at straws. They are bringing on > enormously-damaging lockdowns and harming commerce in order to protect us > from? a cold. This is exposing power-grabbers for what they are and what > they were all along. > > > ### Hope you are right and Merry Christmas! Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 24 19:32:30 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 11:32:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] covid or cold? >?What little I know: viruses that kill their hosts are, regarding evolution, not very successful. So they mutate - it's as if they know that being too toxic is not a good strategy for proliferating. bill w It was a breakthrough in a way billw. Covid originated in China, but information is not free in China, so important data was lost. It proliferated quickly in the USA (we yanks travel a lot (and are generally flabby)) but in the area of medical records, information isn?t free in the USA so important information was lost. Omicron originated in South Africa, where they are good at collecting (and not hiding) data. Result: it looks to me like omicron is pretty much equivalent to a mild flu, as our politicians scramble to convince us that we are going to die if we don?t do exactly as they demand. spike ? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 19:39:15 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:39:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even the vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common >> cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu >> mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still >> don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other >> brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >> > > ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid > variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by > multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to > poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere > lack of lethality will end it ;( > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 19:40:46 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:40:46 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How much data is enough data? That omicron is fairly harmless, that is. Can't be too careful? Of course you can, and many people will dispute the timing. Anyway, since the first strain of the virus is still killing people (I assume), what's wrong with being careful? I do agree that lockdowns and closures are too much, and maybe always have been. bill w On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 1:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid or cold? > > > > >?What little I know: viruses that kill their hosts are, regarding > evolution, not very successful. So they mutate - it's as if they know that > being too toxic is not a good strategy for proliferating. bill w > > > > > > It was a breakthrough in a way billw. Covid originated in China, but > information is not free in China, so important data was lost. It > proliferated quickly in the USA (we yanks travel a lot (and are generally > flabby)) but in the area of medical records, information isn?t free in the > USA so important information was lost. > > > > Omicron originated in South Africa, where they are good at collecting (and > not hiding) data. Result: it looks to me like omicron is pretty much > equivalent to a mild flu, as our politicians scramble to convince us that > we are going to die if we don?t do exactly as they demand. > > > > spike > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 19:44:05 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:44:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner And this is enough data for you? You love anecdotal data do you? How do you know you haven't gotten it? bill w On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 1:41 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even the > vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. > > I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't > stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common >>> cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu >>> mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still >>> don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other >>> brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>> >> >> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >> lack of lethality will end it ;( >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 20:07:37 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 07:07:37 +1100 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even the > vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. > > I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't > stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner > Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did not get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people don?t like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though it means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes crashed and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and exercise, air travel would not be popular. On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common >>> cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu >>> mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still >>> don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other >>> brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>> >> >> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >> lack of lethality will end it ;( >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 24 20:08:42 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 12:08:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] covid or cold? >?How much data is enough data? That omicron is fairly harmless, that is. Can't be too careful? Of course you can, and many people will dispute the timing. Anyway, since the first strain of the virus is still killing people (I assume), what's wrong with being careful? I do agree that lockdowns and closures are too much, and maybe always have been. bill w Ja, billw, we yanks can?t get out of our own way. The harm caused by lockdowns is difficult to estimate, of course it is. We know it caused a lotta harm. In my own family we had one covid death, but her list of other problems was longer than your arm, so it isn?t clear. We had two who died of covid but not with covid: one had chronic congestive heart failure the medics were controlling for the past 15 years, covid caused his hospital to go out of business for lack of customers, he ran out of his carefully-tuned diuretics, ?reasoned? that coffee is a diuretic (sheesh cuz) ramped up that ?medication,? adios amigo, age 64. Another cousin, covid shutdown, his business failed, his girl left, he ended it, age 28. So? how do we count those? In the USA, we don?t really. The one counts as a fatality with or of covid, the other two don?t count at all. How do we count the chaos caused to some students by doing a year of remote learning, and how do we count those fortunate few who prospered during that period? We don?t, because we really don?t know how. How do we count that covid drove zoom technology, which is overall beneficial? How do we estimate the value of the expensive education in biology and immunology that covid has driven? How do we estimate the cost of continuing the shutdown? I am open to suggestion. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 20:25:34 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 07:25:34 +1100 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:14, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid or cold? > > > > >?How much data is enough data? That omicron is fairly harmless, that > is. Can't be too careful? Of course you can, and many people will dispute > the timing. Anyway, since the first strain of the virus is still killing > people (I assume), what's wrong with being careful? I do agree that > lockdowns and closures are too much, and maybe always have been. bill w > > > > > > Ja, billw, we yanks can?t get out of our own way. > > > > The harm caused by lockdowns is difficult to estimate, of course it is. > We know it caused a lotta harm. In my own family we had one covid death, > but her list of other problems was longer than your arm, so it isn?t > clear. We had two who died of covid but not with covid: one had chronic > congestive heart failure the medics were controlling for the past 15 years, > covid caused his hospital to go out of business for lack of customers, he > ran out of his carefully-tuned diuretics, ?reasoned? that coffee is a > diuretic (sheesh cuz) ramped up that ?medication,? adios amigo, age 64. > Another cousin, covid shutdown, his business failed, his girl left, he > ended it, age 28. > > > > So? how do we count those? In the USA, we don?t really. The one counts > as a fatality with or of covid, the other two don?t count at all. > > > > How do we count the chaos caused to some students by doing a year of > remote learning, and how do we count those fortunate few who prospered > during that period? We don?t, because we really don?t know how. How do we > count that covid drove zoom technology, which is overall beneficial? How > do we estimate the value of the expensive education in biology and > immunology that covid has driven? How do we estimate the cost of > continuing the shutdown? I am open to suggestion. > Do you think that letting COVID run unchecked would be better for the economy, students, the medical system, mental health? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 20:33:10 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:33:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Haven't gotten it in terms of getting sick, which is what matters On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't > stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner > And this is enough data for you? You love anecdotal data do you? How do > you know you haven't gotten it? bill w > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 1:41 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even the >> vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >> >> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't >> stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common >>>> cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu >>>> mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still >>>> don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other >>>> brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>>> >>> >>> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >>> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >>> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >>> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >>> lack of lethality will end it ;( >>> >>> Rafal >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 20:37:36 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:37:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug overdose. Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably increases chances of survival more than a vax does On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even the >> vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >> >> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't >> stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >> > > Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did not > get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people don?t > like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though it > means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes crashed > and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and > exercise, air travel would not be popular. > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common >>>> cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu >>>> mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still >>>> don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other >>>> brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>>> >>> >>> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >>> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >>> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >>> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >>> lack of lethality will end it ;( >>> >>> Rafal >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 24 21:05:49 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:05:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002a01d7f90a$080d0860$18271920$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >>? How do we estimate the cost of continuing the shutdown? I am open to suggestion. >?Do you think that letting COVID run unchecked would be better for the economy, students, the medical system, mental health? -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, at some point we need to look at the definition of the term ?unchecked.? The countermeasures we have are masks, social distancing, vaccines and shutdowns. By now plenty of us recognize that masks are mostly for show. They might be better than nothing, but perhaps not much better. Shutdowns: it doesn?t look to me like they work all that well. Many people interpreted the stay-home mandate as a requirement to stay indoors, which increased transmission rather than decreased it, as well as causing other health problems we are still seeing. That one definitely harmed young people. We closed schools for a year, but students don?t seem to catch very easily and even if they do, their young immune systems are generally up to the task, after which they get natural immunity, which is better than medication-induced immunity. Some students prospered but generally students didn?t do as well with remote learning. Schools like to focus on the disparity between the academic haves vs have nots, well? heh? do let me assure you, that has never been so stark as it is after the year off. Some students turned stepping stones to stumbling blocks, others stumbling blocks to stepping stones. We can compare places which have shutdowns to places which do not, such as Florida vs? well pretty much anywhere else and see that without shutdowns and masks, Florida is doing well. Old population there, flabby as all hell, but doing well against covid anyway. Vaccines: I have weighed the risks and decided to go ahead with them, even though I think I have natural immunity from my Dec 2019 experience. I took a second J&J last week. Felt lousy for one day. OK, good deal. Social distancing, HEY! I am all for it. But I am that way. I am in my social element right now. I don?t need to meet and greet, when I can type and snipe. That?s my way. I am not a social butterfly, rather more of a social? cockroach. I can wave from a distance. The masks make it easy because they can assume I am smiling, when I am being a grinch back here behind this paper imaginary barrier against virii. I must grudgingly admit that plenty of people I care about are suffering terribly under the whole social distancing, the naturally gregarious types, oh they miss the big parties and night clubs and such. OK, well? I don?t know what to tell them really. At some point we really need to study what happened in Florida. Their governor said no shutdowns, no mandates. That place is a good laboratory. If our countermeasures don?t work, then ja it is harmful to keep employing them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Fri Dec 24 21:17:35 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 21:17:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for > young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug > overdose. But you know how silly it is to make this comparison. People die in car accidents, sure, but the likelihood is not based on being in a car once, twice, or a dozen times - it's based on years or decades of car use. Likewise, people aren't going to die of a drug overdose if they're not doing drugs. Also, it certainly involves more than just dying. I would not want to go through life with substantially reduced breathing capacity, or reduced sense of smell and taste, or any of the other long term Covid related malady. > Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with > this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. > Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" > movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their > physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but > criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight > probably increases chances of survival more than a vax does I'd need to see data to believe this. Do you have links? And anyone who even hints that losing weight would do more good than a vaccine shouldn't be taken seriously. It's about as useful as suggesting that people who lose weight are less likely to die in a shooting because there's less to shoot at. You're not wrong, but the amount of right you are is miniscule. What's the agenda here? Are you actively advocating against vaccines? Your dismissiveness of their efficacy suggests this, but you don't outright say this. John From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 24 21:56:14 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:56:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003b01d7f911$12889460$3799bd20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat >... It's about as useful as suggesting that people who lose weight are less likely to die in a shooting because there's less to shoot at... John _______________________________________________ Hi John, after all this time I never thought of that angle. You are right on however. I might hafta steal that, but no worries, I will give credit when I do. Our ExI guru of IT recognized an additional safety factor for covid and shootings. Aside: I get news from the town where I tragically squandered my cheerfully misspent youth. Coupla months ago, a hometown girl (family we know) had a granddaughter in the hospital with covid, age 16. I was shocked. Then they showed her photo. I would be surprised if she was any less than 350 pounds. So I looked into it. In teenagers, the few who get serious cases of covid are nearly all obese or severely diabetic, or both. In grownups it might be a factor, but in kids it is a clear factor. Makes sense I suppose. Regarding that girl, she survived, but it was rough. The news article, oh mercy, they quoted her on what looked like her deathbed, talking about how good the food was and how she was looking forward to getting well enough to eat this or that or the other thing. The editors coulda thought that out a little more carefully. What I don't understand is why (or if) the immune system response is different for obese young people or if it is just the extra load on the heart and lungs. My intuition is going toward the latter, but I don't know. spike From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 22:27:45 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:27:45 +1100 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for > young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug > overdose. > > Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with > this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. > Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" > movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their > physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but > criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably > increases chances of survival more than a vax does > If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 and a sore arm for a day. On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even >>> the vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >>> >>> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't >>> stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >>> >> >> Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did not >> get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people don?t >> like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though it >> means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes crashed >> and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and >> exercise, air travel would not be popular. >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common >>>>> cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu >>>>> mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still >>>>> don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other >>>>> brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>>>> >>>> >>>> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >>>> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >>>> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >>>> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >>>> lack of lethality will end it ;( >>>> >>>> Rafal >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 22:37:18 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:37:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What gets overlooked in all of these conversations is /the/ key difference between doctors and public health professionals. When a doctor tells you "this treatment will save your life, but has a 0.05% chance of seriously injuring you", they have taken an oath to your best interests at heart. When a public health professional says "this mandatory national health intervention will save most people's lives, but has a 0.05% chance of seriously injuring someone" it means they've decided that your negative outcome is acceptable to them. The hippocratic Oath is thousands of years old. "Public Health" was invented in the 1800s. It's underlying philosophy is openly and explicitly tyrannical. The 20th century was not exactly a ringing endorsement for government by highly centralized technocracy, in case anyone here wasn't paying attention. On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:29 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for >> young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug >> overdose. >> >> Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with >> this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. >> Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" >> movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their >> physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but >> criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably >> increases chances of survival more than a vax does >> > > If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 and > a sore arm for a day. > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even >>>> the vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >>>> >>>> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't >>>> stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >>>> >>> >>> Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did not >>> get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people don?t >>> like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though it >>> means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes crashed >>> and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and >>> exercise, air travel would not be popular. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common >>>>>> cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu >>>>>> mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still >>>>>> don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other >>>>>> brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >>>>> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >>>>> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >>>>> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >>>>> lack of lethality will end it ;( >>>>> >>>>> Rafal >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 23:56:08 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 10:56:08 +1100 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 09:38, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What gets overlooked in all of these conversations is /the/ key difference > between doctors and public health professionals. > > When a doctor tells you "this treatment will save your life, but has a > 0.05% chance of seriously injuring you", they have taken an oath to your > best interests at heart. > > When a public health professional says "this mandatory national health > intervention will save most people's lives, but has a 0.05% chance of > seriously injuring someone" it means they've decided that your negative > outcome is acceptable to them. > > The hippocratic Oath is thousands of years old. "Public Health" was > invented in the 1800s. It's underlying philosophy is openly and explicitly > tyrannical. > > The 20th century was not exactly a ringing endorsement for government by > highly centralized technocracy, in case anyone here wasn't paying > attention. > Public health measures, mainly sanitation and vaccines, have done more good than all other medical treatments combined. I don?t want to live in a country where this good is held in contempt. > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:29 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for >>> young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug >>> overdose. >>> >>> Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with >>> this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. >>> Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" >>> movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their >>> physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but >>> criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably >>> increases chances of survival more than a vax does >>> >> >> If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 >> and a sore arm for a day. >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even >>>>> the vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >>>>> >>>>> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't >>>>> stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >>>>> >>>> >>>> Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did >>>> not get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people >>>> don?t like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though >>>> it means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes >>>> crashed and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and >>>> exercise, air travel would not be popular. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common >>>>>>> cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu >>>>>>> mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still >>>>>>> don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other >>>>>>> brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >>>>>> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >>>>>> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >>>>>> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >>>>>> lack of lethality will end it ;( >>>>>> >>>>>> Rafal >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 00:03:02 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 17:03:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Sanitation is lovely. Vaccines, when mature and properly tested over years, are great (though the history there is a whole lot messier than the popular mythology records). Public health measures were the stated justification at the time for the Warsaw Ghettoes and the Holocaust. And the eugenics movement. And the Tuskegee medical experiemtns. Any contempt public health as an institution experiences is richly deserved. On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 4:58 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 09:38, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> What gets overlooked in all of these conversations is /the/ key >> difference between doctors and public health professionals. >> >> When a doctor tells you "this treatment will save your life, but has a >> 0.05% chance of seriously injuring you", they have taken an oath to your >> best interests at heart. >> >> When a public health professional says "this mandatory national health >> intervention will save most people's lives, but has a 0.05% chance of >> seriously injuring someone" it means they've decided that your negative >> outcome is acceptable to them. >> >> The hippocratic Oath is thousands of years old. "Public Health" was >> invented in the 1800s. It's underlying philosophy is openly and explicitly >> tyrannical. >> >> The 20th century was not exactly a ringing endorsement for government by >> highly centralized technocracy, in case anyone here wasn't paying >> attention. >> > > Public health measures, mainly sanitation and vaccines, have done more > good than all other medical treatments combined. I don?t want to live in a > country where this good is held in contempt. > > >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:29 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for >>>> young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug >>>> overdose. >>>> >>>> Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with >>>> this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. >>>> Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" >>>> movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their >>>> physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but >>>> criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably >>>> increases chances of survival more than a vax does >>>> >>> >>> If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 >>> and a sore arm for a day. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even >>>>>> the vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't >>>>>> stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did >>>>> not get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people >>>>> don?t like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though >>>>> it means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes >>>>> crashed and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and >>>>> exercise, air travel would not be popular. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a >>>>>>>> common cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a >>>>>>>> killer-flu mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we >>>>>>>> still don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the >>>>>>>> other brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >>>>>>> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >>>>>>> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >>>>>>> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >>>>>>> lack of lethality will end it ;( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rafal >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 00:25:36 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 11:25:36 +1100 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 11:04, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Sanitation is lovely. > > Vaccines, when mature and properly tested over years, are great (though > the history there is a whole lot messier than the popular mythology > records). > > Public health measures were the stated justification at the time for the > Warsaw Ghettoes and the Holocaust. And the eugenics movement. And the > Tuskegee medical experiemtns. > > Any contempt public health as an institution experiences is richly > deserved. > Your argument is basically saying that something has been used to cause harm, it?s no good. So because forks have been used to poke out a person?s eye, forks are no good. On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 4:58 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 09:38, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> What gets overlooked in all of these conversations is /the/ key >>> difference between doctors and public health professionals. >>> >>> When a doctor tells you "this treatment will save your life, but has a >>> 0.05% chance of seriously injuring you", they have taken an oath to your >>> best interests at heart. >>> >>> When a public health professional says "this mandatory national health >>> intervention will save most people's lives, but has a 0.05% chance of >>> seriously injuring someone" it means they've decided that your negative >>> outcome is acceptable to them. >>> >>> The hippocratic Oath is thousands of years old. "Public Health" was >>> invented in the 1800s. It's underlying philosophy is openly and explicitly >>> tyrannical. >>> >>> The 20th century was not exactly a ringing endorsement for government by >>> highly centralized technocracy, in case anyone here wasn't paying >>> attention. >>> >> >> Public health measures, mainly sanitation and vaccines, have done more >> good than all other medical treatments combined. I don?t want to live in a >> country where this good is held in contempt. >> >> >>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:29 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for >>>>> young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug >>>>> overdose. >>>>> >>>>> Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with >>>>> this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. >>>>> Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" >>>>> movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their >>>>> physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but >>>>> criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably >>>>> increases chances of survival more than a vax does >>>>> >>>> >>>> If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 >>>> and a sore arm for a day. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see >>>>>>> even the vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, >>>>>>> don't stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did >>>>>> not get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people >>>>>> don?t like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though >>>>>> it means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes >>>>>> crashed and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and >>>>>> exercise, air travel would not be popular. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a >>>>>>>>> common cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a >>>>>>>>> killer-flu mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we >>>>>>>>> still don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the >>>>>>>>> other brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >>>>>>>> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >>>>>>>> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >>>>>>>> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >>>>>>>> lack of lethality will end it ;( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Rafal >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 00:36:01 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 17:36:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Not something, someone. And yes, institutional continuity counts. Yes, once a person has poked out an eye with a fork, that person is no good. And yes, once an institution has given a bunch of African Americans syphilis just to see what would happen, that institution is no good. On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 5:27 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 11:04, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Sanitation is lovely. >> >> Vaccines, when mature and properly tested over years, are great (though >> the history there is a whole lot messier than the popular mythology >> records). >> >> Public health measures were the stated justification at the time for the >> Warsaw Ghettoes and the Holocaust. And the eugenics movement. And the >> Tuskegee medical experiemtns. >> >> Any contempt public health as an institution experiences is richly >> deserved. >> > > Your argument is basically saying that something has been used to cause > harm, it?s no good. So because forks have been used to poke out a person?s > eye, forks are no good. > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 4:58 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 09:38, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> What gets overlooked in all of these conversations is /the/ key >>>> difference between doctors and public health professionals. >>>> >>>> When a doctor tells you "this treatment will save your life, but has a >>>> 0.05% chance of seriously injuring you", they have taken an oath to your >>>> best interests at heart. >>>> >>>> When a public health professional says "this mandatory national health >>>> intervention will save most people's lives, but has a 0.05% chance of >>>> seriously injuring someone" it means they've decided that your negative >>>> outcome is acceptable to them. >>>> >>>> The hippocratic Oath is thousands of years old. "Public Health" was >>>> invented in the 1800s. It's underlying philosophy is openly and explicitly >>>> tyrannical. >>>> >>>> The 20th century was not exactly a ringing endorsement for government >>>> by highly centralized technocracy, in case anyone here wasn't paying >>>> attention. >>>> >>> >>> Public health measures, mainly sanitation and vaccines, have done more >>> good than all other medical treatments combined. I don?t want to live in a >>> country where this good is held in contempt. >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:29 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for >>>>>> young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug >>>>>> overdose. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with >>>>>> this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. >>>>>> Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" >>>>>> movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their >>>>>> physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but >>>>>> criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably >>>>>> increases chances of survival more than a vax does >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 >>>>> and a sore arm for a day. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see >>>>>>>> even the vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, >>>>>>>> don't stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did >>>>>>> not get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people >>>>>>> don?t like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though >>>>>>> it means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes >>>>>>> crashed and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and >>>>>>> exercise, air travel would not be popular. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a >>>>>>>>>> common cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a >>>>>>>>>> killer-flu mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we >>>>>>>>>> still don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the >>>>>>>>>> other brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >>>>>>>>> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >>>>>>>>> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >>>>>>>>> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >>>>>>>>> lack of lethality will end it ;( >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Rafal >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 01:31:44 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 19:31:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: , once an institution has given a bunch of African Americans syphilis just to see what would happen, that institution is no good. We don't have to ask you how much data you require: one instance of something and you are against it forever despite the long passage of time, increased scrutiny on them, different people, different policies, etc. In psychology we learn to avoid 'never - always - all' and synonyms. And yours is an extreme example of stereotyping. bill w On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 6:37 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Not something, someone. > > And yes, institutional continuity counts. > > Yes, once a person has poked out an eye with a fork, that person is no > good. > > And yes, once an institution has given a bunch of African Americans > syphilis just to see what would happen, that institution is no good. > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 5:27 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 11:04, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Sanitation is lovely. >>> >>> Vaccines, when mature and properly tested over years, are great (though >>> the history there is a whole lot messier than the popular mythology >>> records). >>> >>> Public health measures were the stated justification at the time for the >>> Warsaw Ghettoes and the Holocaust. And the eugenics movement. And the >>> Tuskegee medical experiemtns. >>> >>> Any contempt public health as an institution experiences is richly >>> deserved. >>> >> >> Your argument is basically saying that something has been used to cause >> harm, it?s no good. So because forks have been used to poke out a person?s >> eye, forks are no good. >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 4:58 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 09:38, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> What gets overlooked in all of these conversations is /the/ key >>>>> difference between doctors and public health professionals. >>>>> >>>>> When a doctor tells you "this treatment will save your life, but has a >>>>> 0.05% chance of seriously injuring you", they have taken an oath to your >>>>> best interests at heart. >>>>> >>>>> When a public health professional says "this mandatory national health >>>>> intervention will save most people's lives, but has a 0.05% chance of >>>>> seriously injuring someone" it means they've decided that your negative >>>>> outcome is acceptable to them. >>>>> >>>>> The hippocratic Oath is thousands of years old. "Public Health" was >>>>> invented in the 1800s. It's underlying philosophy is openly and explicitly >>>>> tyrannical. >>>>> >>>>> The 20th century was not exactly a ringing endorsement for government >>>>> by highly centralized technocracy, in case anyone here wasn't paying >>>>> attention. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Public health measures, mainly sanitation and vaccines, have done more >>>> good than all other medical treatments combined. I don?t want to live in a >>>> country where this good is held in contempt. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:29 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) >>>>>>> for young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or >>>>>>> drug overdose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with >>>>>>> this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. >>>>>>> Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" >>>>>>> movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their >>>>>>> physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but >>>>>>> criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably >>>>>>> increases chances of survival more than a vax does >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of >>>>>> $20 and a sore arm for a day. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see >>>>>>>>> even the vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, >>>>>>>>> don't stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID >>>>>>>> did not get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But >>>>>>>> people don?t like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even >>>>>>>> though it means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes >>>>>>>> crashed and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and >>>>>>>> exercise, air travel would not be popular. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a >>>>>>>>>>> common cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a >>>>>>>>>>> killer-flu mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we >>>>>>>>>>> still don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the >>>>>>>>>>> other brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >>>>>>>>>> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >>>>>>>>>> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >>>>>>>>>> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >>>>>>>>>> lack of lethality will end it ;( >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Rafal >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 02:15:52 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 21:15:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 4:18 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > What's the agenda here? Are you actively advocating against vaccines? Your > dismissiveness of their efficacy suggests this, but you don't outright say > this. > > Yeah, I thought it was kind of obvious. I think the covid vaxes suck. mRNA vaccines are cheap trash made because they take no time or development funds. They protect against a single protein on the virus that we already know is prone to mutation. They're being pushed because of pharma profit margins, in my opinion. Also here's a study from recently that seems to show these vaccines (pfizer and moderna) having *negative* efficacy against omicron after 90 days. That is, you're more likely to get omicron 90 days after your shot than someone who doesn't have the shot. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v3.full.pdf This is not an antivax study, nor even against the covid vax; it's more about how effectiveness wanes over time and it's in favor of boosters. But if you look at the post 90 day bar for omicron on the graph, the 95% confidence interval is so far into the negatives it's ridiculous. Note that this is a preprint -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 03:03:56 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 22:03:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:13 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 at 15:54, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > >> >> >> ### You are not even wrong. Completely off subject. >> >> Rafal >> > > Maybe I didn?t say it simply enough. If no road rules are enforced, all > drivers suffer, not just the ones who venture onto the road. If no public > health rules are enforced (given that the public health problem that can be > mitigated with such rules), everyone suffers, not just those who venture > into public. This is because restricting yourself from driving or > restricting yourself from going out due to fear of the consequences is a > harm. Do you disagree that the argument is sound, or do you just disagree > with the premise, that there are any public health problems that can be > mitigated by public health measures? > >> > ### If you look at my post you were responding to, it was a very specific and precise argument, only assessing the moral justification for lockdowns. I explained that John's accusation that people venturing out in a lockdown are selfish polluters and criminally stupid is logically unsound. Subsequently, to make the argument more vivid I used the analogy to driving vs. not driving. Your answer to this post didn't acknowledge my point, dispute the point, or refute it, you went off on a tangent, i.e. off subject. I didn't argue about "public health rules", I argued specifically about the moral justification for lockdowns, not about other actions related to public health, and you didn't address this argument. OK, now you are asking about whether I refuse "public health measures" in general. Is it an interesting question? Well, all I care about is to avoid stupid, destructive and evil actions and to promote smart, constructive and therefore good actions. Whether such actions are called "public health measures" or not is beside the point. It only matters if they are smart and useful. Are there any smart and useful public health measures at all? Yes, of course. Vaccinations against Covid in at-risk individuals are smart and useful. Did you expect a different answer? Arguing about inappropriately broad categories is useless. The devil is in the details, so the holy war must be a very detail-oriented business. Which specific "public health measures" do you support, and why? Are you in favor of lockdowns, and why? Are you in favor of putting the unvaccinated in indefinite detention? If you were a German citizen in the 1930s, would you have supported the elimination of "Lebensunwertes Leben" as part of "Nationalsozialistiche Rassenhygiene", which was a "public health measure" by any other name? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 03:06:53 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 22:06:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 6:53 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > It is very difficult (impossible, really) to make laws or rules which > are suitable for everyone, so we end up muddling through chaos. > But as a society, we have to try ### Indeed, amen to that. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 03:18:59 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 22:18:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 9:25 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Staying at home is not an option everyone has. Not everyone delivers to > homes. > ### Indeed, which is one reason why I so strongly argue against lockdowns. -------------------------------- > If infected, one should wear a mask so as to not infect others. Period. > ### Bullshit. How do you know you are infected with Covid? Most infectees are asymptomatic and still infectious. If you want to avoid infecting others, you must quarantine yourself... except it won't work because everybody will eventually be infected anyway. Cloth masks don't work. This is a simple fact, verified in multiple peer-reviewed publications. Mask-wearing by the general public is nothing but security theater. Voluntary mask wearing in the hope of avoiding infection is just stupid. If you want to avoid Covid you must completely isolate yourself from everybody else, indefinitely. A little piece of trash attached to your face won't help. Mask wearing is also humiliating and dehumanizing and therefore mask mandates are not just stupid, they are also immoral. It's not an accident that women in Moslem countries are forced to wear masks all their life. It's not an accident that the victim in BDSM is often masked. Masking is wrong. Period. > What part of responsibility in protecting others do you not understand? > ### What do you actually know about how to protect others? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Sat Dec 25 03:47:58 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 03:47:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > The hippocratic Oath is thousands of years old. "Public Health" was > invented in the 1800s. It's underlying philosophy is openly and explicitly > tyrannical. I think you don't really know much about the history of medicine. The suppression of traditional medicine in favor of a system run primarily by men, for the benefit of men, is relatively recent, but this has almost nothing to do with the Hippocratic Oath, nor to do with "public safety". Or, if you do know about the history of medicine, then you may be intentionally conflating things to make points that really have nothing to do with each other. John From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 03:50:43 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 22:50:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 11:23 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Really? Did you think it over before committing this to the keyboard? > > Yes, I did. > > > Let me upack the logic here for you. Let's assume that a population of > > well-informed individuals who are at risk of a deadly infection if they > > leave their homes but are safe if they stay in... > > This isn't the case at all. We have well meaning people who care about > themselves, their families and people around them. They are conscientious > and careful, they wear masks, and they've gotten vaccinated. This is a > majority of people. > > Then we have people who are in excellent health and/or think that the > effects of Covid are exaggerated, and therefore don't care much about > whether they get Covid, but who aren't selfish and care enough about > others to vaccinate, wear masks and otherwise participate in trying to > avoid spreading Covid. > > Then you have people who want to force their beliefs on others. It's not > enough for them to passively participate, or to avoid public places. They > don't care about possibly affecting others. > > Trying to say that the last group is equal to the first two and are > equally "making the decision for themselves" is... Well, it's ridiculous. > You're really, really stretching here, so much so that I find it difficult > to know whether to take you seriously. > > You're essentially saying that engaging in risky public behavior that can > hurt others is fine, because others have made the decision to participate > in being public. So, by extension, you're saying that if 5% of the > population wants to do something to scare the other 95% in to staying in > their houses, they should be allowed, because, again, we're all making our > own decisions about whether to participate in anything public. You're also > suggesting that the concept of "public good" has little or no weight nor > value. > > If this is how you feel, then we fundamentally disagree, and we can simply > agree to disagree. > > But I know for a fact that you would be screaming bloody murder if the > roles were reversed. > > Imagine this: what if I had an aerosol form of a Covid vaccine and walked > around in public spraying it everywhere? And what if my attitude was that > if you don't want to be vaccinated, then simply don't go out in public. > Would you meekly stay home and accept that we're both making decisions for > ourselves? No, of course you wouldn't. But I seriously doubt you could > acknowledge this. > > > I brought up pollution not as an analogy but as an example of how > self-righteousness and selfishness are similar between polluters and > anti-vaccine people: they both require the idea that the individual's > desires outweigh any possible impact to others. > > But if you want to make an analogy of it, I'd suggest that it's similar to > people who drive while on the phone not caring about their potential > impact on others. Again, there's no equivalence between those who don't > want to be told to not be on their phones and everyone else. We'd accuse > people who insist they should be allowed to drive while using their phones > of a "tremendous amount of selfishness and a criminal lack of self > reflection", but obviously not all drivers :) > > And I haven't the slightest clue about what you're talking about in your > non-sequitur about "lazy, witless moralizing" that has somehow led to > "turmoil that cost tens of trillions of dollars and millions of lives". > > I wish there were more substance in what you're writing, because I REALLY > want to understand why people anti-vaccine and anti-mask people don't > really care about others. Outrage about masks, negative test results, or > vaccination requirements is somehow equivalent and just as bad as, in your > collective minds, possibly harming or killing people. If someone killed > someone you love via Covid, would you really be OK with the idea that it > could've been avoided, but avoiding is too onerous? Would you even answer > that question honestly? > > ### I made a very specific argument about lockdowns and I showed the analogies you used on that subject were unsound. I demonstrated that people venturing out in a lockdown are not "selfish polluters" and "criminally" stupid. Your response above never acknowledges my point. You do not concede the point (as a gracious debater would). You don't refute my logic. Instead you write about vaccinations and masking, and "public good", and the kitchen sink, and pour on the moralizing, anything but to address the specific point about lockdowns I made. TL:DR If you want to be treated like a serious debater you need to make specific, well-formed arguments. State your premises. Quote factual information. Do the numbers. Go over the detailed sequences of events that happen or are predicted to happen (as I did in discussing the moral justification of lockdowns). Articulate specific conclusions about the value of specific actions (no lumping of vaccination, lockdowns and masking into one big glob of confusion). Are you for or against state-mandated lockdowns and why? Are you for the indefinite detention of the unvaccinated? Why? (Quote efficacy data, cost-benefit calculations) What mechanism of harm prevention do you posit that would justify e.g. forcing me to wear a mask outdoors? Or while walking to my table in a restaurant? All else is just witless moralizing. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Sat Dec 25 03:59:15 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 03:59:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > Public health measures were the stated justification at the time for the > Warsaw Ghettoes and the Holocaust. And the eugenics movement. And the > Tuskegee medical experiemtns. So you want us to believe that masking and vaccination requirements are in the same category as the Holocaust. How do you expect to be taken seriously? > Any contempt public health as an institution experiences is richly deserved. I have plenty of contempt for public health as an institution, particularly in the United States, but that doesn't mean that we can just make shit up. John From john at ziaspace.com Sat Dec 25 04:11:31 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 04:11:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > Yeah, I thought it was kind of obvious. I think the covid vaxes suck. > mRNA vaccines are cheap trash made because they take no time or development > funds. They protect against a single protein on the virus that we already > know is prone to mutation. They're being pushed because of pharma profit > margins, in my opinion. Thank you! This actually gives me something to consider. So what I'd ask next is do you believe that vaccines are actively bad because they have limited protection? Do you think we shouldn't be taking them, and if so, why? > Also here's a study from recently that seems to show these vaccines (pfizer > and moderna) having *negative* efficacy against omicron after 90 days. > That is, you're more likely to get omicron 90 days after your shot than > someone who doesn't have the shot. > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v3.full.pdf > This is not an antivax study, nor even against the covid vax; it's more > about how effectiveness wanes over time and it's in favor of boosters. But > if you look at the post 90 day bar for omicron on the graph, the 95% > confidence interval is so far into the negatives it's ridiculous. Note > that this is a preprint Oh, dear. That's not how statistics works. I think people see papers like these, see something that sounds good, then they run with it without actually understanding what they're reading. No, vaccines don't CAUSE you to become infected. Nobody is saying or even hinting that there's some viral interference going on. That would be silly. The data for later dates excludes people who leave the category, either by becoming infected, by dying, by emigrating, or - and this is important - getting a booster. It's right there in the paper. One might reasonably assume that those who are vaccinated are more likely to start going about life a little more normally, and therefore are more likely to get infected because of that. And what really matters is that 1) if the efficacy drops, does getting a booster raise efficacy? (yes, it clearly does), and 2) do incidents of vaccinated infections still leads to substantially less incidence of death and less serious effects? and yes to that, too. John From john at ziaspace.com Sat Dec 25 04:14:38 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 04:14:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> If infected, one should wear a mask so as to not infect others. Period. > > ### Bullshit. How do you know you are infected with Covid? Most infectees > are asymptomatic and still infectious. If you want to avoid infecting > others, you must quarantine yourself... except it won't work because > everybody will eventually be infected anyway. Everything is an absolute, huh? > Cloth masks don't work. This is a simple fact, verified in multiple > peer-reviewed publications. Mask-wearing by the general public is nothing > but security theater. Voluntary mask wearing in the hope of avoiding > infection is just stupid. If you want to avoid Covid you must completely > isolate yourself from everybody else, indefinitely. Perhaps you need a reminder of why masks are worn? It's not to avoid getting infected - it's to reduce the chance of infecting others. But you know that, and seem to just be trolling here. > A little piece of trash attached to your face won't help. Mask wearing > is also humiliating and dehumanizing and therefore mask mandates are not > just stupid, they are also immoral. If you think wearing a mask is humiliating, then I think you have an insecurity problem. If you think they're immoral, then you have a horrible understanding of morality that seems sophomoric at very best, and most likely dehumanizing itself. > It's not an accident that women in Moslem countries are forced to wear > masks all their life. It's not an accident that the victim in BDSM is > often masked. Now you're showing total ignorance. You clearly know absolutely nothing about BDSM. Second, if you think that wearing masks to reduce the possibility of infecting others is in any way related to Muslims wearing niqabs, you have issues, you're trolling, or both. > Masking is wrong. Period. Again, absolutes. >> What part of responsibility in protecting others do you not understand? > ### What do you actually know about how to protect others? One doesn't have to know much to follow direction from those that do know. You've offered nothing but insecurity as reasoning for not masking while pretending that you think that masks are meant to avoid infection, not to avoid infecting others. These are truly bad faith arguments. If you think masking is bad, do some homework. Find some REAL data that shows that. > This is because restricting yourself from driving or restricting > yourself from going out due to fear of the consequences is a harm. I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not talking about a problem with everyone going out in to public - I have a problem with people who are unvaccinated and anti-mask going out in to public. I am not for lockdowns and simply wish everyone would participate enough that they wouldn't be necessary. Your quoting is a bit odd, so it makes it hard to easily tell what's quoted and what's new, so I'll have to re-read everything with this misunderstanding in mind. John From john at ziaspace.com Sat Dec 25 04:22:56 2021 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 04:22:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apologies - I might've just replied to Rafal at the end of what was otherwise a reply to Darin. > ### I made a very specific argument about lockdowns and I showed the > analogies you used on that subject were unsound. I demonstrated that people > venturing out in a lockdown are not "selfish polluters" and "criminally" > stupid. I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not talking about a problem with everyone going out in to public - I have a problem with people who are unvaccinated and anti-mask going out in to public. I am not for lockdowns and simply wish everyone would participate enough that they wouldn't be necessary. Your quoting is a bit odd, so it makes it hard to easily tell what's quoted and what's new, so I'll have to re-read everything with this misunderstanding in mind. > Your response above never acknowledges my point. You do not concede the > point (as a gracious debater would). You don't refute my logic. Instead you > write about vaccinations and masking, and "public good", and the kitchen > sink, and pour on the moralizing, anything but to address the specific > point about lockdowns I made. TL:DR Your point about lockdowns may be different, now that I've clarified. John From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 25 04:27:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 20:27:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] webb is on Message-ID: <002001d7f947$abf65200$03e2f600$@rainier66.com> The Webb launch is on for 7:20 EST. Good luck to us! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 25 04:43:10 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 20:43:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor Message-ID: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> Note I am not weighing in on the vaccine debate, just offering a bit of dark humor. As you view this bit of vaccine comedy, note that I am not anti-vax. I am anti-mandate, and this 2 minute video is one of the reasons, but I weighed the risks as I understand them, I was not compelled, took two J&Js, one last spring, one last week. So far so good. Even with that, this made me laugh: https://twitter.com/i/status/1474291409113042955 Do view it with the proper sense of humor. It is Christmas, Webb is launching tomorrow, life is good. May it be long, and may the new year bring happiness, prosperity and health to all. spike From msd001 at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 04:58:53 2021 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 23:58:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 11:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Note I am not weighing in on the vaccine debate, just offering a bit of > dark > humor. As one who also normally uses humor as a coping mechanism, I feel the issue is either too important to those involved to snipe jokes or conversely too unimportant to take a seat at the table. > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1474291409113042955 > > Do view it with the proper sense of humor. Even with the disclaimer, I mostly felt bad for the guy. It is Christmas, Webb is > launching tomorrow, life is good. May it be long, and may the new year > bring happiness, prosperity and health to all. > Here here! (Hear here?) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 06:12:26 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 01:12:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 11:12 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Yeah, I thought it was kind of obvious. I think the covid vaxes suck. > > mRNA vaccines are cheap trash made because they take no time or > development > > funds. They protect against a single protein on the virus that we > already > > know is prone to mutation. They're being pushed because of pharma profit > > margins, in my opinion. > > Thank you! This actually gives me something to consider. > > So what I'd ask next is do you believe that vaccines are actively bad > because they have limited protection? Do you think we shouldn't be taking > them, and if so, why? > I think it's up to the individual to decide, honestly. For young healthy people I don't think it's worth taking fairly untested medications--an entire untested *class* of medications! For people who covid is basically a death sentence (old, obese, immunocompromised) then it might be a better idea to take it. A single-protein vax is never going to beat an attenuated virus vax or, better yet, actual natural immunity. mRNA vaxes are like giving your immune system a police sketch of just the perp's left ear. > Also here's a study from recently that seems to show these vaccines > (pfizer > > and moderna) having *negative* efficacy against omicron after 90 days. > > That is, you're more likely to get omicron 90 days after your shot than > > someone who doesn't have the shot. > > https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v3.full.pdf > > This is not an antivax study, nor even against the covid vax; it's more > > about how effectiveness wanes over time and it's in favor of boosters. > But > > if you look at the post 90 day bar for omicron on the graph, the 95% > > confidence interval is so far into the negatives it's ridiculous. Note > > that this is a preprint > > Oh, dear. That's not how statistics works. I think people see papers like > these, see something that sounds good, then they run with it without > actually understanding what they're reading. > > No, vaccines don't CAUSE you to become infected. Nobody is saying or even > hinting that there's some viral interference going on. That would be > silly. > > The data for later dates excludes people who leave the category, either > by becoming infected, by dying, by emigrating, or - and this is important > - getting a booster. It's right there in the paper. Well yeah, that's why they conclude that boosters reinvigorate your immunity. But the efficacy post 90 days is *negative*. It's not low or zero; the data seems to show that the vaxed are more susceptible (only to omicron, specifically.) At least that's what it appears like to me. What else would negative efficacy mean? It could be original antigenic sin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin > One might reasonably assume that those who are vaccinated are more likely > to start going about life a little more normally, and therefore are more > likely to get infected because of that. > Yet another reason the public health approach here has been awful. They initially took a hyperutilitarian stance, get people vaxed no matter what. So they hyped up the efficacy of these mRNA vaxes. And part of that was telling people they prevent the spread, not just disease. Well it turns out you can still spread it if you're vaxed. All those international omicron spreaders were vaxed. Vaxed people are out there partying and coming into contact with lots of people, when really they are the ones spreading it. In general I think the psychology of this stuff has been absolutely nuts. Whether it's demonizing the unvaxed, or people thinking masks prevent you from getting sick (when they're really for preventing you from spreading it,) to the continually moving goalposts and changing definitions of what it is to be vaccinated and even *the definition of a vaccine itself*, to the overblowing of risk for the young and healthy, this shit has been insane. And especially, especially, the hypocrisy. How everyone was talking about getting vaxed to save others, but really they just wanted to go back to normal. They only care about themselves. That's why we needed to lie and tell them masks protect the self; they wouldn't have done it for other people. That's why they preach empathy while saying they hope the unvaxed suffer and die. That's why they're lining up for their 4th boosters when numerous scientists and public health organizations have said that vaccine inequality in the third world has CAUSED variants to break out. That's why it's so easy to control what they believe. They are scared--and jobless too. And all that fear and financial uncertainty causes anger which has been channeled onto the unvaxed as scapegoats. When really, they're just as much to blame, since they're out there asymptomatically spreading, or spreading omicron, because they think they're immune. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 11:13:12 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 11:13:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: <002001d7f947$abf65200$03e2f600$@rainier66.com> References: <002001d7f947$abf65200$03e2f600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 04:29, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The Webb launch is on for 7:20 EST. Good luck to us! > > spike > _______________________________________________ Links to watch live launch - BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 25 12:35:10 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 04:35:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: References: <002001d7f947$abf65200$03e2f600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003001d7f98b$db97ad80$92c70880$@rainier66.com> Woooohooo! Successful launch! spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2021 3:13 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] webb is on On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 04:29, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The Webb launch is on for 7:20 EST. Good luck to us! > > spike > _______________________________________________ Links to watch live launch - BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 25 13:02:33 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 05:02:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 11:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Note I am not weighing in on the vaccine debate, just offering a bit of dark humor. >?As one who also normally uses humor as a coping mechanism, I feel the issue is either too important to those involved to snipe jokes or conversely too unimportant to take a seat at the table? Hi Mike, ja, I am not ridiculing the hapless pharmacist, and I do take position at the table: I am in favor of the vaccine and oppose compelling others to take it. That isn?t contradictory, isn?t sitting on the table or under it, it?s a position. Read on please. https://twitter.com/i/status/1474291409113042955 Do view it with the proper sense of humor. >?Even with the disclaimer, I mostly felt bad for the guy? Me too. His attempted commentary seemed to tell all: he realized what he was doing there went against everything he ever learned in pharmacy school. He was promoting a vaccine which probably is good but damn well does have unknown risks. There wasn?t time to test everything because it would have taken years we didn?t have. So the medical industry downplayed the long term risks, understated or didn?t state for an ambiguously justifiable reason: to gently compel the public to get the vaccine. However? the mandates hit everyone, including those who have already caught and recovered, along with the young whose risk from covid is low and have a lot of life ahead to suffer possible long-term consequences, it hits the stay-at-homes afraid to go outdoors, such as my neighbor who hasn?t left her home in a year and a half except to get the vaccine four times. It hits those with known bad reactions to vaccines, but this one category especially: pregnant women. The pharmaceutical industry just abandons that class of people and states it right up front: not enough data, not enough known to be worth studying it, sorry preggers, you just hafta suffer. OK then, where is the mandate exception for them please? I had to feel sorry for the poor pharmacist. It looks to me like a guy who is told to say one thing for his job but he doesn?t really believe it in his heart. Pharmacists and doctors know that all medications carry risk. In my opinion the benefits outweigh the risk in this case. Over the past year the picture has shifted. Now they say we need to take these things periodically, which increases the risk and decreases the benefit. OK then we must stop with the mandates everywhere. Let each decide. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 18:30:05 2021 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 11:30:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: <003001d7f98b$db97ad80$92c70880$@rainier66.com> References: <002001d7f947$abf65200$03e2f600$@rainier66.com> <003001d7f98b$db97ad80$92c70880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The Director of Operations for the launch was one Jean-Luc Voyer. Literally the /perfect/ name for a French space mission commander whose job during the actual launch, if all goes well - and it did, like literally textbook! - is to monitor the performance of automated equipment. On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 5:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Woooohooo! Successful launch! > > spike > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2021 3:13 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: BillK > Subject: Re: [ExI] webb is on > > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 04:29, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > The Webb launch is on for 7:20 EST. Good luck to us! > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > Links to watch live launch - > < > https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2021/12/23/join-us-to-watch-the-webb-launch-liv > e/ > > > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 25 19:05:18 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 11:05:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?Hi Mike, ja, I am not ridiculing the hapless pharmacist, and I do take position at the table: I am in favor of the vaccine and oppose compelling others to take it. >?https://twitter.com/i/status/1474291409113042955 I had some further thoughts after I viewed that video again. Note that with the commentary below, I am not entering the vaccine debate. My position on that is very clear and stated above. I have no interest in influencing others. Let each be convinced in her own mind. Below is offered as food for thought on this joyous occasion of a successful launch of the Webb. During my cheerfully squandered young adulthood, I worked in a lab where we were developing commercial electronic circuitry for space applications, such as the common i486 processor. The OSHA rules and even stricter Cal-OSHA required us to have an MSDS for every substance used in that lab, Material Safety Data Sheet = MSDS. If an OSHA inspector showed up, she could point to any bottle, any flask, any reagent, and the lead guy could be asked: What is that, show me the MSDS. If any solvent, any chemical agent or anything that lab were to be accidentally ingested, we had to be ready to tell the toxicologist what the silly goofball ate, and what the MSDS says, etc, so we double filed everything under both the name of the stuff and the MSDS number. We followed the rules carefully and were never gigged in the two years I was there, suffered no injuries or serious fatalities the whole time. Pharmacology is like that, only stricter, because the stuff in that field is intended to be ingested or injected, but if you give some hapless prole the wrong stuff or even too much of the right stuff, it might be adios amigo, and even if she survives, it might be adios license or adios freedom, Mister Gower. The pharmacologists are required to have something analogous to an MSDS too, only theirs is even stricter. Good thing. Because of that, pharmacy drug accidents are very rare. Any time you get a new medication, any good pharmacist will offer to explain in detail what it is, what it does, likely or possible side effects, what?s the best orifice to poke it into, that sorta thing. In the package is a big foldout sheet explaining what tests were done to prove it safe, what placebo studies were offered, all the ways this medication might harm or kill you if you aren?t lucky, etc. Nobody ever reads it of course, but ya might aughta try sometime. I did. I don?t like taking things. Consider that video where the package had a big blank foldout sheet which said ?This page is intentionally blank.? Apparently (from his reaction) the pharmacist wasn?t even aware the safety sheet that came with the vaccine was blank. It looked to me like he was surprised, dismayed, appalled, poor lad. I am not blaming him, even though he is responsible for folding out and reading that material. Whatever company that packaged the medication included a folded up blank sheet of paper with the helpful comment ?This page is intentionally blank.? OK then. Why did they put that blank sheet in there? Was it to give patients and pharmacists a sense of security? Was it because a pharmacist would not dispense any medication without that customary sheet? Consider that guy in the video, sheesh. I get the vague feeling he wasn?t aware they gave him a medication with no MSDS and ordered him to dispense it. He had no personal liability, but now he knows whoever supplied it also has no corporate liability for what it might do. There were no warnings, no list of possible side effects, no prohibition for pregnant women, nothing but a big blank sheet of paper which must have felt to him like a decoy or something. When he discovered that, he might have been thinking along the lines of: I?m really trying to do the right thing here, but this is just wrong. We always tell patients that every medication has a risk model and a proof of efficacy model. They sent me a blank MSDS. We just don?t do medicine this damn way. This is wrong. I have thought this thru and decided that the vaccine is right, the mandates are wrong. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Dec 25 19:33:56 2021 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 11:33:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: > > Woooohooo! Successful launch! > > spike What a great Christmas present for all mankind! Happy holidays, everyone. Stuart LaForge From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 19:44:48 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 06:44:48 +1100 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 at 00:03, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor > > > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 11:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Note I am not weighing in on the vaccine debate, just offering a bit of > dark > humor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >?As one who also normally uses humor as a coping mechanism, I feel the > issue is either too important to those involved to snipe jokes or > conversely too unimportant to take a seat at the table? > > > > Hi Mike, ja, I am not ridiculing the hapless pharmacist, and I do take > position at the table: I am in favor of the vaccine and oppose compelling > others to take it. That isn?t contradictory, isn?t sitting on the table or > under it, it?s a position. Read on please. > > > > > > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1474291409113042955 > > Do view it with the proper sense of humor. > > > > >?Even with the disclaimer, I mostly felt bad for the guy? > > > > Me too. His attempted commentary seemed to tell all: he realized what he > was doing there went against everything he ever learned in pharmacy > school. He was promoting a vaccine which probably is good but damn well > does have unknown risks. There wasn?t time to test everything because it > would have taken years we didn?t have. So the medical industry downplayed > the long term risks, understated or didn?t state for an ambiguously > justifiable reason: to gently compel the public to get the vaccine. > Long term side effects of drugs may not show up because they take years to develop, or they may not show up because it takes years to accumulate enough cases for a rare side effect to be evident. Accumulating evidence as a drug is used is called a Phase IV trial, and is ongoing. With some drugs, it may take decades to get enough cases to see rare side-effects, but with the COVID vaccines there are already billions of doses given. There are so many that even long term side-effects may be expected to be seen, since they would follow a normal distribution: if there is a peak at 5 years, there will be the tails to the curve at ten years and one year. But from what we know of vaccines, they have their side effects in the first few weeks or not at all, since they are completely eliminated from the body within days and all that is left is the immunological memory. And there is more reason to think that the virus will cause long term side-effects than the vaccine, since there is a precedence for this with other viruses. > However? the mandates hit everyone, including those who have already > caught and recovered, along with the young whose risk from covid is low and > have a lot of life ahead to suffer possible long-term consequences, it hits > the stay-at-homes afraid to go outdoors, such as my neighbor who hasn?t > left her home in a year and a half except to get the vaccine four times. > It hits those with known bad reactions to vaccines, but this one category > especially: pregnant women. The pharmaceutical industry just abandons that > class of people and states it right up front: not enough data, not enough > known to be worth studying it, sorry preggers, you just hafta suffer. OK > then, where is the mandate exception for them please? > > > > I had to feel sorry for the poor pharmacist. It looks to me like a guy > who is told to say one thing for his job but he doesn?t really believe it > in his heart. Pharmacists and doctors know that all medications carry > risk. In my opinion the benefits outweigh the risk in this case. Over the > past year the picture has shifted. Now they say we need to take these > things periodically, which increases the risk and decreases the benefit. > OK then we must stop with the mandates everywhere. Let each decide. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 25 19:47:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 11:47:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <006e01d7f9c8$34334670$9c99d350$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] webb is on Quoting Spike: > >> Woooohooo! Successful launch! > > spike >...What a great Christmas present for all mankind! Happy holidays, everyone. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Stuart the notion of a near-infrared space telescope was proposed by Lyman Spitzer in 1946. You and I (and everyone here) are fortunate enough to be living 75 years later when it all became real. This is a gift to all mankind indeed. spike From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 21:15:05 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 14:15:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: <006e01d7f9c8$34334670$9c99d350$@rainier66.com> References: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> <006e01d7f9c8$34334670$9c99d350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes. Love this page: https://www.jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 12:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] webb is on > > Quoting Spike: > > > > >> Woooohooo! Successful launch! > > > > spike > > >...What a great Christmas present for all mankind! Happy holidays, > everyone. > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Stuart the notion of a near-infrared space telescope was proposed by Lyman > Spitzer in 1946. You and I (and everyone here) are fortunate enough to be > living 75 years later when it all became real. > > This is a gift to all mankind indeed. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 25 22:04:54 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 14:04:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: References: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> <006e01d7f9c8$34334670$9c99d350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002001d7f9db$733387f0$599a97d0$@rainier66.com> From: Brent Allsop Subject: Re: [ExI] webb is on Yes. >?Love this page: https://www.jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html Cool thx Brent. Watch over the next several days as the cruising speed decreases. Note the fourth digit after the decimal in the distance complete is changing at a tempo of about 100 per minute or so. Musicians among us, is that about andante moderato? Check it again in a few days, it will down to a relaxed Adagietto. In about 4 weeks this marvelous techno-miracle will be ready to shower us with digital blessings. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 22:42:54 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 22:42:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: <002001d7f9db$733387f0$599a97d0$@rainier66.com> References: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> <006e01d7f9c8$34334670$9c99d350$@rainier66.com> <002001d7f9db$733387f0$599a97d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 22:07, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Cool thx Brent. Watch over the next several days as the cruising speed decreases. Note the fourth digit after the decimal in the distance complete is changing at a tempo of about 100 per minute or so. Musicians among us, is that about andante moderato? Check it again in a few days, it will down to a relaxed Adagietto. > > In about 4 weeks this marvelous techno-miracle will be ready to shower us with digital blessings. > > spike > _______________________________________________ 4 weeks is only the journey time. It will be another six months of commissioning before the mission starts and results start to flow. Keep your fingers crossed till then! BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 25 23:37:35 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 15:37:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: References: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> <006e01d7f9c8$34334670$9c99d350$@rainier66.com> <002001d7f9db$733387f0$599a97d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000101d7f9e8$65dd74a0$31985de0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] webb is on On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 22:07, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: ... > In about 4 weeks this marvelous techno-miracle will be ready to shower us with digital blessings. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...4 weeks is only the journey time. It will be another six months of commissioning before the mission starts and results start to flow. Keep your fingers crossed till then! BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, that six months only applies if they made a huge error in construction, such as... the ground the reflector incorrectly... Fun aside please, since that six months comment brought back some uncomfortable memories. When I was younger than I am now, I was working at Lockheed Martin as the Hubble was getting ready to launch. A bunch of us space types were going to go out to Moffett Field and cheer it on as they put it aboard a C5. They told us to show up by 0600 to be sure we were there when the brought it out of the high bay at the Sunnyvale plant, but they secretly got the crew together the night before and spirited it away in the night, so when our club got there, they told us sorry, it was gone, flew out about an hour ago. Damn. They took it down to the Cape, launched it in April 1990. We expected first light in about a week, but the first week came and went, then the second, then the third. We knew enough about initialization of subsystems to realize something was wrong. We began to worry and speculate, but NASA wouldn't say anything other than they were initializing subsystems. Lockheed had a weekly company newspaper. On 20 June, the company paper published a photo, first light from Hubble, hooray! I looked at it and rejoiced! For about three minutes. Then I began to realize there was something wrong. I could see the pixels, I counted, did the math... the resolution wasn't right. I puzzled and puzzled like the Grinch when he couldn't figure out why the Whos Christmas came anyway. I figured I would call my friend Wayne who knew everything there is to know about digital space photography. I called him up, about 10 minutes after that Lockheed paper came out with the ink still wet, I said Hi Wayne, I am looking at this photo on the cover of the Lockheed Star... he said, Yeah, it's fake. I said WHAT? FAKE? Whaddya mean FAKE? He said: Aw, this thing isn't even a serious attempt at a counterfeit, for starters, the resolution isn't right, or if it is, the distance between those two stars is wrong, the Airy disc should be showing up on both stars, there is another background object this view should have shown, the orientation is wrong, there are about half a dozen other obvious problems with this photo, NASA faked it. It doesn't take this long to initialize that system, something is wrong with the scope. That was Wayne. He knew everything about astrophotography. The next day, NASA announced there was a flaw in the mirror. So I got the phone with the Lockheed Star office to find out if NASA faked the photo or if Lockheed did that, because I would think we coulda done a better job. I talked to the entire staff at the Star, but no one would take ownership of that image. I never did find out if Lockheed did that or if NASA did it. BillK, you are right however, it takes some time after they get her into position to do additional initialization, but I predict it will take only a few weeks rather than months. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 00:56:19 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 00:56:19 +0000 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: <000101d7f9e8$65dd74a0$31985de0$@rainier66.com> References: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> <006e01d7f9c8$34334670$9c99d350$@rainier66.com> <002001d7f9db$733387f0$599a97d0$@rainier66.com> <000101d7f9e8$65dd74a0$31985de0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 23:40, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > BillK, you are right however, it takes some time after they get her into > position to do additional initialization, but I predict it will take only a > few weeks rather than months. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Ever the optimist! You can probably get treatment for that. :) NASA says six months, plus one month's work done during the journey to L2. See: Quotes: ?It takes probably three to four months to get everything down to the 30 to 50 Kelvin temperature ranges that [most instruments] need. But during that time, our optical team is continuing to align the telescope. After this, James Webb gets turned over to the instrument teams. ?We have four instruments, and [those teams] will then go through a series of calibration exercises with those instruments. These exercises range from thermal stability measurements to looking at dark areas to just calibrating out all of the artifacts in the instruments that would interfere with science observations.? This delicate work will take about two months, bringing the total commissioning phase to about six months total. --------- You will have to be patient for a while and hope everything checks out OK. BillK From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 01:26:24 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 18:26:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: References: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> <006e01d7f9c8$34334670$9c99d350$@rainier66.com> <002001d7f9db$733387f0$599a97d0$@rainier66.com> <000101d7f9e8$65dd74a0$31985de0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Just passed 100K miles from earth! Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 5:57 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 23:40, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > BillK, you are right however, it takes some time after they get her into > > position to do additional initialization, but I predict it will take > only a > > few weeks rather than months. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ever the optimist! You can probably get treatment for that. :) > > NASA says six months, plus one month's work done during the journey to L2. > > See: > Quotes: > ?It takes probably three to four months to get everything down to the > 30 to 50 Kelvin temperature ranges that [most instruments] need. But > during that time, our optical team is continuing to align the > telescope. > > After this, James Webb gets turned over to the instrument teams. > ?We have four instruments, and [those teams] will then go through a > series of calibration exercises with those instruments. These > exercises range from thermal stability measurements to looking at dark > areas to just calibrating out all of the artifacts in the instruments > that would interfere with science observations.? > > This delicate work will take about two months, bringing the total > commissioning phase to about six months total. > --------- > > You will have to be patient for a while and hope everything checks out OK. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 26 05:10:14 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 21:10:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] webb is on In-Reply-To: References: <20211225113356.Horde.DV5_DJWOTJ41z_phDAG05Y8@secure306.inmotionhosting.com> <006e01d7f9c8$34334670$9c99d350$@rainier66.com> <002001d7f9db$733387f0$599a97d0$@rainier66.com> <000101d7f9e8$65dd74a0$31985de0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01d7fa16$de019870$9a04c950$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... See: Quotes: ?It takes probably three to four months to get everything down to the 30 to 50 Kelvin temperature ranges that [most instruments] need. But during that time, our optical team is continuing to align the telescope. .... --------- You will have to be patient for a while and hope everything checks out OK. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja that is a difference between Webb and Hubble: the latter was tuned to visible and UV to some extent, whereas the Webb is set up for near infrared observations, which should be extremely informative because so much of that energy is absorbed in the atmosphere. They are right of course on the cooling: that is all done passively on Webb, so that part does take a while, dang. I now realize that most of the cooling takes place only after Webb arrives at L2. The earth eclipses over half the sun in that position. spike From sparge at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 17:03:47 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 12:03:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 2:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Whatever company that packaged the medication included a folded up blank > sheet of paper with the helpful comment ?This page is intentionally > blank.? OK then. Why did they put that blank sheet in there? > Most likely they included the note so people would know that they aren't providing the usual information. If they just leave it out, they'll probably get calls from users wondering if their package failed to get the disclosure. Or maybe the FDA requires it, even when the information isn't available when a drug is released by emergency authorization. Seems like it could have been informative about why it was "blank" and why it was included. I have thought this thru and decided that the vaccine is right, the > mandates are wrong. > Vaccines aren't right or wrong: they're tools that are sometimes helpful, sometimes have harmful side effects, etc. Mandates are tools, too. They have their pluses and minuses. (I don't understand why anyone would refuse to wear a mask in public, though.) -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 17:10:43 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 11:10:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: But from what I understand, death is not a side effect of vaccines. bill w On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 11:06 AM Dave S via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 2:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> Whatever company that packaged the medication included a folded up blank >> sheet of paper with the helpful comment ?This page is intentionally >> blank.? OK then. Why did they put that blank sheet in there? >> > > Most likely they included the note so people would know that they aren't > providing the usual information. If they just leave it out, they'll > probably get calls from users wondering if their package failed to get the > disclosure. Or maybe the FDA requires it, even when the information isn't > available when a drug is released by emergency authorization. Seems like it > could have been informative about why it was "blank" and why it was > included. > > I have thought this thru and decided that the vaccine is right, the >> mandates are wrong. >> > > Vaccines aren't right or wrong: they're tools that are sometimes helpful, > sometimes have harmful side effects, etc. Mandates are tools, too. They > have their pluses and minuses. (I don't understand why anyone would refuse > to wear a mask in public, though.) > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 17:22:10 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 11:22:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] New Year Message-ID: "Be at war with your vices, at peace with your neighbors, and let every new year find you a better man." ? BENJAMIN FRANKLIN bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 26 17:23:39 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 09:23:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor >?But from what I understand, death is not a side effect of vaccines. bill w Ja. Perhaps the most prominent side effect of the vaccine mandates are the proletariat?s dramatic loss of confidence in our political leaders. There might be an unknown downside to that. I just can?t figure out what it would be. There were such obvious errors in the way mandates were handled, such as no exception for those who have had covid and recovered, and no counter-indications for pregnant women. That last one really worries me because it is inherently difficult to verify safety, with the time delay from immunization to the birth of the baby. When the immune system is forming, we don?t know what the heck will happen if we introduce viral mRNA with the most unfortunately named spike proteins. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 18:08:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 12:08:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, in a way I feel sorry for our political leaders. They have been pushed every possible way, have heard advice conflicting in every detail since this started, tried to make decisions nonpolitical (and failed), and are criticized by everyone as not being strong enough, being too weak, dithering, and so on. No matter what they did, large groups were incensed. Not to be overlooked is the fact that their decisions involved human lives possibly lost or possibly saved. I did not and do not envy them. bill w On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 11:29 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor > > > > >?But from what I understand, death is not a side effect of vaccines. > bill w > > > > > > Ja. Perhaps the most prominent side effect of the vaccine mandates are > the proletariat?s dramatic loss of confidence in our political leaders. > > > > There might be an unknown downside to that. I just can?t figure out what > it would be. > > > > There were such obvious errors in the way mandates were handled, such as > no exception for those who have had covid and recovered, and no > counter-indications for pregnant women. That last one really worries me > because it is inherently difficult to verify safety, with the time delay > from immunization to the birth of the baby. When the immune system is > forming, we don?t know what the heck will happen if we introduce viral mRNA > with the most unfortunately named spike proteins. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 26 18:59:34 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:59:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ?>Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor >?Spike, in a way I feel sorry for our political leaders. They have been pushed every possible way, have heard advice conflicting in every detail since this started, tried to make decisions nonpolitical (and failed), and are criticized by everyone as not being strong enough, being too weak, dithering, and so on. No matter what they did, large groups were incensed. Not to be overlooked is the fact that their decisions involved human lives possibly lost or possibly saved. I did not and do not envy them. bill w This is a good thing Billw. I worry about anyone who did and does envy political leaders. Ideally that should be a job few people want. If we reduce their power at every opportunity it helps to make the jobs less enviable. Perhaps someone here knows or can suggest where I might go to find out: as I understand it, the reason pharmacists were allowed to distribute the vaccines is because of an emergency use authorization. As I understand it, this requires that there is no known alternative treatment. But we have had anti-viral meds since forever, and they were used in previous SARS pandemics. We don?t know if they work, I get that. It looks like we made a bunch of special-case exceptions for this particular vaccine technology, then after the fact found out that it doesn?t work as well as originally thought. With any medication there are all the tests of safety and efficacy that cost half a billion dollars, but we don?t have that for this vaccine. Now there is no incentive on the part of the manufacturer to do any of that, a strong disincentive in fact, for as it stands, they can sell all of it they can make while assuming no liability and while making no promises of efficacy. Any testing they do can only harm their perfect position in the market. So now? we still don?t have testing done under controlled conditions with systematic data collection, which is why after all this time the big picture is still muddled and chaotic, with pharmaceutical companies and politicians cheerfully wielding power without reasoning or accountability. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 20:01:43 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 07:01:43 +1100 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 at 06:00, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > ?>*Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor > > > > >?Spike, in a way I feel sorry for our political leaders. They have been > pushed every possible way, have heard advice conflicting in every detail > since this started, tried to make decisions nonpolitical (and failed), and > are criticized by everyone as not being strong enough, being too weak, > dithering, and so on. No matter what they did, large groups were > incensed. Not to be overlooked is the fact that their decisions involved > human lives possibly lost or possibly saved. I did not and do not envy > them. bill w > > > > > > This is a good thing Billw. I worry about anyone who did and does envy > political leaders. Ideally that should be a job few people want. If we > reduce their power at every opportunity it helps to make the jobs less > enviable. > > > > Perhaps someone here knows or can suggest where I might go to find out: as > I understand it, the reason pharmacists were allowed to distribute the > vaccines is because of an emergency use authorization. As I understand it, > this requires that there is no known alternative treatment. But we have > had anti-viral meds since forever, and they were used in previous SARS > pandemics. We don?t know if they work, I get that. > > > > It looks like we made a bunch of special-case exceptions for this > particular vaccine technology, then after the fact found out that it > doesn?t work as well as originally thought. With any medication there are > all the tests of safety and efficacy that cost half a billion dollars, but > we don?t have that for this vaccine. Now there is no incentive on the part > of the manufacturer to do any of that, a strong disincentive in fact, for > as it stands, they can sell all of it they can make while assuming no > liability and while making no promises of efficacy. Any testing they do > can only harm their perfect position in the market. > > > > So now? we still don?t have testing done under controlled conditions with > systematic data collection, which is why after all this time the big > picture is still muddled and chaotic, with pharmaceutical companies and > politicians cheerfully wielding power without reasoning or accountability. > What do you imagine more thorough earlier testing in a few thousand subjects would have shown that is not evident by observing the effect of almost 9 billion doses of vaccines given in 184 different countries? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 26 20:37:51 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 12:37:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat So now? we still don?t have testing done under controlled conditions with systematic data collection, which is why after all this time the big picture is still muddled and chaotic, with pharmaceutical companies and politicians cheerfully wielding power without reasoning or accountability. >?What do you imagine more thorough earlier testing in a few thousand subjects would have shown that is not evident by observing the effect of almost 9 billion doses of vaccines given in 184 different countries? -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis for starters, we would have known perhaps that the vaccine?s benefit is short term. When I took the first shot, we were being told this was one and done, like tetanus or measles. That has changed dramatically. Had it been known before, it would have influenced a lot of decisions on whether to take the vaccine to start with. Many took this the first time based on misinformation. Now we learn that the risk model is speculative as well, and no one is accountable if things go badly. Yet plenty of governments charge ahead with mandates. The US government would jump on that mandate bandwagon if it had the authority to do it. We do get a side benefit: it serves as a reminder to make double sure the government doesn?t get special authority based on public health emergencies. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 26 21:59:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 13:59:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine test lab Message-ID: <004501d7faa3$cf2ee810$6d8cb830$@rainier66.com> Now that we know pharma companies don?t do testing, we get a perfect test lab for omicron: the state of Florida. There the new covid rate is thru the roof. So far the fatality rate hasn?t responded. In that sense it looks like South Africa?s data. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ If you look at the data on this site, it takes about 12 days lag time between when the case rate takes off to the time the fatality rate takes off. From what I can tell, the upward trend was obvious on 15 Dec, so 12 days later is tomorrow. Pretty soon we will find out if omicron is that mutant which is relatively benign and whether it confers immunological benefits against its cousins. Let us hope. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34989 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30719 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 26 22:18:44 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 14:18:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine test lab In-Reply-To: <004501d7faa3$cf2ee810$6d8cb830$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d7faa3$cf2ee810$6d8cb830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006301d7faa6$8bf51990$a3df4cb0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?Now that we know pharma companies don?t do testing, we get a perfect test lab for omicron: the state of Florida. There the new covid rate is thru the roof. So far the fatality rate hasn?t responded. In that sense it looks like South Africa?s data. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ This is the South Africa data. Their omicron case rate took off about 26 November and has peaked about a week ago. Their fatality rate rose some, but didn?t do what previous outbreaks did. I see this as good justification for optimism in Florida. Side note, the Florida data has definitely become once again a political football. The outcome in the next few days could very well determine the political future in the USA. If the death rate in Florida skyrockets, the governor is likely finished as a political leader. Otherwise, the rest of the states will likely follow his example and he will be carried to Washington on the shoulders of the wildly cheering masses. Stand by for NEWS! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 36898 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Dec 26 23:12:49 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:12:49 +1100 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 at 07:39, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > So now? we still don?t have testing done under controlled conditions with > systematic data collection, which is why after all this time the big > picture is still muddled and chaotic, with pharmaceutical companies and > politicians cheerfully wielding power without reasoning or accountability. > > > > > > >?What do you imagine more thorough earlier testing in a few thousand > subjects would have shown that is not evident by observing the effect of > almost 9 billion doses of vaccines given in 184 different countries? -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Stathis for starters, we would have known perhaps that the vaccine?s > benefit is short term. When I took the first shot, we were being told this > was one and done, like tetanus or measles. That has changed dramatically. > Had it been known before, it would have influenced a lot of decisions on > whether to take the vaccine to start with. Many took this the first time > based on misinformation. > > > > Now we learn that the risk model is speculative as well, and no one is > accountable if things go badly. Yet plenty of governments charge ahead > with mandates. The US government would jump on that mandate bandwagon if > it had the authority to do it. We do get a side benefit: it serves as a > reminder to make double sure the government doesn?t get special authority > based on public health emergencies. > I don?t think it was ever promised that the vaccine would be permanently effective. The closest comparison was with the flu vaccine, which needs to be changed every year. It was a welcome surprise that the COVID vaccines are more effective than flu vaccines because it was feared that it might be very difficult to make a vaccine at all, as with HIV. But even if the vaccines were not very effective, say if they only decreased the risk of dying from COVID by 10%, they would still be worthwhile, because 10% of many millions is still millions of lives saved. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 00:47:02 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 16:47:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?I don?t think it was ever promised that the vaccine would be permanently effective?. It would be an interesting study to find what was written about it at the time. >? The closest comparison was with the flu vaccine? It would be analogous if not for the enormous social pressure to get these vaccines. Without mandates, those are comparable. >?which needs to be changed every year? That shoulda told us something very important Stathis. Flu virii mutate quickly. At some point we might need to rely on natural immunity from a relatively benign variant. Always the unreasonable optimist, I am seeing in the data indications that omicron might be that variant. It might also turn out that our best efforts at preventive treatment is chasing the wind. >? But even if the vaccines were not very effective, say if they only decreased the risk of dying from COVID by 10%, they would still be worthwhile, because 10% of many millions is still millions of lives saved. -- Stathis Papaioannou The problem is that the risk/benefit model isn?t that simple. It doesn?t reduce to the percent chance of dying or the percent chance of going to the hospital. Agree that?s a big part of it. But those numbers are hard to estimate, partly because of our own legal system with regard to privacy of medical records. I will make a confident prediction: for years to come, we will be seeing people blaming the covid vaccine for any childhood maladies and the usual general weirdness of children born to mothers compelled to take this vaccine against their will. For a large segment of the population, the vaccine will be blamed for everything that goes wrong medically, especially that goes wrong with children born after the mother was pressured to take these vaccines. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 01:01:25 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 19:01:25 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It doesn?t reduce to the percent chance of dying or the percent chance of going to the hospital. spike ??? I thought vaccines prevented the infection or lessened the symptoms if the person was exposed. Are these wrong? bill w On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 6:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > >?I don?t think it was ever promised that the vaccine would be permanently > effective?. > > > > It would be an interesting study to find what was written about it at the > time. > > > > >? The closest comparison was with the flu vaccine? > > > > It would be analogous if not for the enormous social pressure to get these > vaccines. Without mandates, those are comparable. > > > > >?which needs to be changed every year? > > > > That shoulda told us something very important Stathis. Flu virii mutate > quickly. At some point we might need to rely on natural immunity from a > relatively benign variant. Always the unreasonable optimist, I am seeing > in the data indications that omicron might be that variant. It might also > turn out that our best efforts at preventive treatment is chasing the wind. > > > > >? But even if the vaccines were not very effective, say if they only > decreased the risk of dying from COVID by 10%, they would still be > worthwhile, because 10% of many millions is still millions of lives saved. > > -- Stathis Papaioannou > > > > The problem is that the risk/benefit model isn?t that simple. It doesn?t > reduce to the percent chance of dying or the percent chance of going to the > hospital. Agree that?s a big part of it. But those numbers are hard to > estimate, partly because of our own legal system with regard to privacy of > medical records. > > > > I will make a confident prediction: for years to come, we will be seeing > people blaming the covid vaccine for any childhood maladies and the usual > general weirdness of children born to mothers compelled to take this > vaccine against their will. For a large segment of the population, the > vaccine will be blamed for everything that goes wrong medically, especially > that goes wrong with children born after the mother was pressured to take > these vaccines. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 01:49:24 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 17:49:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001601d7fac3$fa750a20$ef5f1e60$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor It doesn?t reduce to the percent chance of dying or the percent chance of going to the hospital. spike ??? I thought vaccines prevented the infection or lessened the symptoms if the person was exposed. Are these wrong? bill w We are told that it reduces risk regardless, but consider another model. We know that the elderly benefit a lot from these vaccines. I don?t think anyone will dispute that. Now start working downward. As you go down the age spectrum, the risk of dying while unvaccinated drops dramatically, while unknown risk goes up, since the young have more life ahead. For reasons I don?t understand, the young seem to be more susceptible to a side effect of myocarditis. For the very young, infants for instance, the medical community is not suggesting these vaccines are a good idea. OK then, good deal for the old, bad deal for the young. So? where is the crossover point? At what age is the risk for taking the vaccine a breakeven for the risk of not? Do estimate that age, first for the average person. OK then. We have seen a few fatal cases in teenagers, but in every case, there are circumstances, most commonly the patient was grossly obese or were diabetic, or both. OK then, no problem, for the obese and diabetic, move that breakeven age lower. What?s the opposite? Perfectly healthy, athletic, trim. For that tragically dwindling class of people, move the breakeven age older. Break out those who have already had covid and survived (meeeeeee!) into a group, move the age higher (ja?) Break out a group who never leave their home (my neighbor) and raise the age for them. Break out pregnant women and serious consider just telling them no, because introducing mRNA has a lotta possible influences on a developing fetuses, and even if it does nothing, if the baby has health problems, are we sure that didn?t contribute? What about those with auto-immune diseases up the kazoo? Do we raise the age for them? How much? And those with known bad reactions to vaccines, raise the age how much? What about those who fly aaaaallll the daaaaam tiiiiimmmme as I useta hafta do for my career, the estimated breakeven age is lower for that crowd, ja? What about students? They are around a lotta people at school, but there aren?t a lot of cases there, so I don?t know on that one. What about those who get a lot of sunshine (that seems to have an effect for some reason.) My point: it doesn?t all reduce down to one number. Every case is different. Billw the decision is easy for you and me. For us it is a go, easily predictable benefit, low-ish down side that I can see. For my 15 yr old perfectly healthy son, it isn?t clear which side of the line he is on, but I think he is below the breakeven age. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 04:41:13 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 20:41:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine test lab In-Reply-To: <006301d7faa6$8bf51990$a3df4cb0$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d7faa3$cf2ee810$6d8cb830$@rainier66.com> <006301d7faa6$8bf51990$a3df4cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002f01d7fadb$facade60$f0609b20$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: vaccine test lab From: spike at rainier66.com > >?Now that we know pharma companies don?t do testing, we get a perfect test lab for omicron: the state of Florida. There the new covid rate is thru the roof. So far the fatality rate hasn?t responded. In that sense it looks like South Africa?s data. >?https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ After two long years of wondering? it is entirely possible we will find out a whole bunch of answers in the coming week or two. If the fatality rate in Florida launches like one of Mr. Musk?s creations, then the nightmare continues indefinitely, we can look forward to more lockdowns and mandates of all kinds, failed businesses, another horrifying round of death and social destruction. If it doesn?t? good chance this nightmare is coming to a close. Governors and prime ministers everywhere will follow the lead of the Florida governor, omicron will likely spread everywhere and displace its more dangerous cousins as the fatality rate falls everywhere, life returns to normal. One way or the other? we will likely know in about two weeks. The whole world is cheering for Florida, because we?re the next ones to experience what you are feeling right now. Good luck and evolution-speed Florida. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 14:14:07 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 09:14:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 7:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I will make a confident prediction: for years to come, we will be seeing > people blaming the covid vaccine for any childhood maladies and the usual > general weirdness of children born to mothers compelled to take this > vaccine against their will. > Wow, who's doing forced vaccinations? > For a large segment of the population, the vaccine will be blamed for > everything that goes wrong medically, especially that goes wrong with > children born after the mother was pressured to take these vaccines. > Of course. So what? It's natural to blame something new for issues that arise around the same time. Sometimes it's coincidence, sometimes there's a cause/effect relationship. My wife got eye flashes in one eye last spring. Eye doctor said they'd probably go away in a couple of months, but they haven't. Recently she got them in the other eye. She realized that the first coincided with her second Moderna dose and the second with her booster. I googled and there is a possibility that the vaccine caused it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358769/ -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 14:35:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 06:35:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004201d7fb2f$1008b600$301a2200$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 7:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: I will make a confident prediction: for years to come, we will be seeing people blaming the covid vaccine for any childhood maladies and the usual general weirdness of children born to mothers compelled to take this vaccine against their will. >?Wow, who's doing forced vaccinations? Many companies threatened to fire unvaccinated employees citing OSHA rules. The court stopped OSHA, but plenty of employees took the vaccine to save their jobs in the meantime. The military discharged some for refusing. There were plenty of people who felt pressured and wouldn?t have taken the vaccine without the pressure from employers and schools. That vaccine passport business is a huge error in judgement, considering that one isn?t required to present ID in order to get the vaccine, which creates a black market in the vaccine passport cards. For a large segment of the population, the vaccine will be blamed for everything that goes wrong medically, especially that goes wrong with children born after the mother was pressured to take these vaccines. >?Of course. So what? It's natural to blame something new for issues that arise around the same time. Sometimes it's coincidence, sometimes there's a cause/effect relationship? This can lead to a general distrust of vaccines, including the ones we have had for a long time, which we know are relatively safe and necessary. >?My wife got eye flashes in one eye last spring. Eye doctor said they'd probably go away in a couple of months, but they haven't. Recently she got them in the other eye. She realized that the first coincided with her second Moderna dose and the second with her booster. I googled and there is a possibility that the vaccine caused it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358769/ -Dave Owww dang sorry to hear it Dave. May she recover fully and quickly. If we pretend any new Rx is without risk we fool ourselves. We might find out that babies born to vaccinated mothers are four times as likely to develop auto-immune diseases for instance, but by then we have ten years of children who are developing rare but serious conditions. There really is more to it than risk of death. At some age, it is more risky to take it than not, guessing about 20 or so, and older than that for women, younger than that for diabetics. Stand by however, for what happens in Florida in the next coupla weeks may cause all of this to go away. If it turns out that omicron is mild and confers natural immunity to the other variants, it might be our best bet to go ahead and catch the damn stuff, hang out with an omicron patient. Hell that could spawn a new micro-industry: hire a pleasant young omicroner to hang out with you for an hour. Nothing improper you understand, just visit and transmit, catch under controlled conditions, recover, go about your business. An ailing species heals. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 14:44:31 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 08:44:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine test lab In-Reply-To: <002f01d7fadb$facade60$f0609b20$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d7faa3$cf2ee810$6d8cb830$@rainier66.com> <006301d7faa6$8bf51990$a3df4cb0$@rainier66.com> <002f01d7fadb$facade60$f0609b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Speaking of Musk, I saw where he got an 11 Billion dollar tax bill. Surely that's a record. bill w On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 10:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: vaccine test lab > > > > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > > > > > >?Now that we know pharma companies don?t do testing, we get a perfect > test lab for omicron: the state of Florida. There the new covid rate is > thru the roof. So far the fatality rate hasn?t responded. In that sense > it looks like South Africa?s data. > > > > >?https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ > > > > > > After two long years of wondering? it is entirely possible we will find > out a whole bunch of answers in the coming week or two. If the fatality > rate in Florida launches like one of Mr. Musk?s creations, then the > nightmare continues indefinitely, we can look forward to more lockdowns and > mandates of all kinds, failed businesses, another horrifying round of death > and social destruction. If it doesn?t? good chance this nightmare is > coming to a close. Governors and prime ministers everywhere will follow > the lead of the Florida governor, omicron will likely spread everywhere and > displace its more dangerous cousins as the fatality rate falls everywhere, > life returns to normal. > > > > One way or the other? we will likely know in about two weeks. > > > > The whole world is cheering for Florida, because we?re the next ones to > experience what you are feeling right now. Good luck and evolution-speed > Florida. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 15:21:50 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 07:21:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine test lab In-Reply-To: References: <004501d7faa3$cf2ee810$6d8cb830$@rainier66.com> <006301d7faa6$8bf51990$a3df4cb0$@rainier66.com> <002f01d7fadb$facade60$f0609b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005b01d7fb35$79800330$6c800990$@rainier66.com> ? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine test lab >?Speaking of Musk, I saw where he got an 11 Billion dollar tax bill. Surely that's a record. bill w It sure is a record sir. After Musk was criticized in public by a US senator for not paying taxes, he pointed out that he paid more in taxes last year than any American in history. Pwned! All her base are belong to Musk! Given this marvelous high-tech car factory up the street, California was most eager to cook our golden-egg goose. Now Elon is moving his ops to Texas. Once Tesla is gone, California will have a new most lucrative factory to chase away. Smart money will invest in real estate close to Musk?s new Texas HQ. You should see what Tesla has done to this neighborhood in the last ten years, oh my, everywhere you look, people cleaning up, fixing up, building back better. Everything that man touches turns to gold. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 15:26:03 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 09:26:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine test lab In-Reply-To: <005b01d7fb35$79800330$6c800990$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d7faa3$cf2ee810$6d8cb830$@rainier66.com> <006301d7faa6$8bf51990$a3df4cb0$@rainier66.com> <002f01d7fadb$facade60$f0609b20$@rainier66.com> <005b01d7fb35$79800330$6c800990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How did he get chased away, Spike? bill w On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 9:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > ? *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine test lab > > > > >?Speaking of Musk, I saw where he got an 11 Billion dollar tax bill. > Surely that's a record. bill w > > > > It sure is a record sir. After Musk was criticized in public by a US > senator for not paying taxes, he pointed out that he paid more in taxes > last year than any American in history. Pwned! All her base are belong to > Musk! > > > > Given this marvelous high-tech car factory up the street, California was > most eager to cook our golden-egg goose. Now Elon is moving his ops to > Texas. Once Tesla is gone, California will have a new most lucrative > factory to chase away. > > > > Smart money will invest in real estate close to Musk?s new Texas HQ. You > should see what Tesla has done to this neighborhood in the last ten years, > oh my, everywhere you look, people cleaning up, fixing up, building back > better. Everything that man touches turns to gold. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 15:50:25 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:50:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <004201d7fb2f$1008b600$301a2200$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <004201d7fb2f$1008b600$301a2200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 9:35 AM wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 7:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I will make a confident prediction: for years to come, we will be seeing > people blaming the covid vaccine for any childhood maladies and the usual > general weirdness of children born to mothers compelled to take this > vaccine against their will. > > >?Wow, who's doing forced vaccinations? > > > > Many companies threatened to fire unvaccinated employees citing OSHA > rules. The court stopped OSHA, but plenty of employees took the vaccine to > save their jobs in the meantime. > I consider that voluntary. Nobody has a right to bring a contagious disease to their workplace. > The military discharged some for refusing. > The military has a long history of mandatory vaccinations. The military is also completely voluntary. Those who don't like that should look elsewhere. There were plenty of people who felt pressured and wouldn?t have taken the > vaccine without the pressure from employers and schools. That vaccine > passport business is a huge error in judgement, considering that one isn?t > required to present ID in order to get the vaccine, which creates a black > market in the vaccine passport cards. > The cards are a joke. That's a failure of government and leadership, but only the latest in a very long series. > For a large segment of the population, the vaccine will be blamed for > everything that goes wrong medically, especially that goes wrong with > children born after the mother was pressured to take these vaccines. > > > > >?Of course. So what? It's natural to blame something new for issues that > arise around the same time. Sometimes it's coincidence, sometimes there's a > cause/effect relationship? > > > > This can lead to a general distrust of vaccines, including the ones we > have had for a long time, which we know are relatively safe and necessary. > Like worrying about unwarranted distrust of voting systems, worrying about what people might worry about next is a waste of time and effort. No amount of openness and testing and freedom and ... will make all worries go away. Owww dang sorry to hear it Dave. May she recover fully and quickly. > Thanks. She knew the risks and doesn't regret the decision. > If we pretend any new Rx is without risk we fool ourselves. > I couldn't agree more. > Stand by however, for what happens in Florida in the next coupla weeks may > cause all of this to go away. If it turns out that omicron is mild and > confers natural immunity to the other variants, it might be our best bet to > go ahead and catch the damn stuff, hang out with an omicron patient. > Have you been to FL recently? I have. You can't go anywhere without a mask. :-) > Hell that could spawn a new micro-industry: hire a pleasant young > omicroner to hang out with you for an hour. Nothing improper you > understand, just visit and transmit, catch under controlled conditions, > recover, go about your business. An ailing species heals. > Robin Hanson was arguing for deliberate exposure of volunteers to covid in the early days. It sounded like a good idea at the time, but given the long term respiratory and neurological effects covid can have, I think it would have been a bad idea. As you say, it's not just about death. If omicron doesn't cause the neuro/respiratory effects and confers immunity, that might be worth investigating. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 15:57:09 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 07:57:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine test lab In-Reply-To: References: <004501d7faa3$cf2ee810$6d8cb830$@rainier66.com> <006301d7faa6$8bf51990$a3df4cb0$@rainier66.com> <002f01d7fadb$facade60$f0609b20$@rainier66.com> <005b01d7fb35$79800330$6c800990$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008d01d7fb3a$67f08590$37d190b0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine test lab >?How did he get chased away, Spike? bill w The state failed to offer tax incentives for his factory to stay. States compete with each other to attract business. They make rules in such a way to make that happen. Tesla was a rare example of car manufacturing (well, any industrial-scale manufacturing) in America, in California of all places, where the tax structure is unfavorable to anything other than very high-value-added manufacturing. I never bought any Tesla stock, figuring there is no way a factory like that could make it here. Big mistake. Musk made it successful. I know a lotta people who made tons of money on Tesla stock, including my neighbor who was an ordinary no-college 9 to 5er, owns two high-end Teslas and a power wall, still has money up the kazoo, all from going long on Tesla stock. When the covid shutdowns came, it hit the Tesla factory hard. Musk appealed to the governor to override in that case because that factory is very roomy, sparsely populated, well ventilated, very clean, really a model for how factories should be. But Cal-OSHA wouldn?t call off their dogs. Eventually Musk restarted the line anyway, the sheriff delivered a fifty dollar fine from the county health department, Musk framed it but never paid, the county didn?t attempt to stop the line because that is their bread and butter too. The county kinda got it, the state didn?t. In general, governments need to remember who they work for. A big prosperous business pays billions in taxes. The top guy alone pays 11 digits a year. Lots of lower-level employees pay 7 and 8 digit tax bills. The price of local real estate went thru the roof. Sales were so hot, if one bought a ?House for sale by owner? sign at the hardware store, one would collect a crowd following you home, offering food and sexual favors. The state of California gets 1% per year of those absurd home prices, times half a million local homes, oh the size of that pile of money, just thinking about it makes one?s butt hurt, oh mercy. So? our politicians should have some respect. They should have more respect for people who pay the bills. Figure out ways to keep those people happy and prosperous. Government people need to be reminded who works for who. We don?t work for them. They work for us. Had the California government kept that in mind, Musk wouldn?t be moving to Texas. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 16:09:53 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 03:09:53 +1100 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <004201d7fb2f$1008b600$301a2200$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <004201d7fb2f$1008b600$301a2200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 at 01:37, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave S via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor > > > > On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 7:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > I will make a confident prediction: for years to come, we will be seeing > people blaming the covid vaccine for any childhood maladies and the usual > general weirdness of children born to mothers compelled to take this > vaccine against their will. > > > > >?Wow, who's doing forced vaccinations? > > > > > > Many companies threatened to fire unvaccinated employees citing OSHA > rules. The court stopped OSHA, but plenty of employees took the vaccine to > save their jobs in the meantime. The military discharged some for > refusing. There were plenty of people who felt pressured and wouldn?t have > taken the vaccine without the pressure from employers and schools. That > vaccine passport business is a huge error in judgement, considering that > one isn?t required to present ID in order to get the vaccine, which creates > a black market in the vaccine passport cards. > > > > For a large segment of the population, the vaccine will be blamed for > everything that goes wrong medically, especially that goes wrong with > children born after the mother was pressured to take these vaccines. > > > > >?Of course. So what? It's natural to blame something new for issues that > arise around the same time. Sometimes it's coincidence, sometimes there's a > cause/effect relationship? > > > > This can lead to a general distrust of vaccines, including the ones we > have had for a long time, which we know are relatively safe and necessary. > > > > > > >?My wife got eye flashes in one eye last spring. Eye doctor said they'd > probably go away in a couple of months, but they haven't. Recently she got > them in the other eye. She realized that the first coincided with her > second Moderna dose and the second with her booster. I googled and there is > a possibility that the vaccine caused it: > > > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358769/ > > > > -Dave > > > > > > Owww dang sorry to hear it Dave. May she recover fully and quickly. > > > > If we pretend any new Rx is without risk we fool ourselves. We might find > out that babies born to vaccinated mothers are four times as likely to > develop auto-immune diseases for instance, but by then we have ten years of > children who are developing rare but serious conditions. There really is > more to it than risk of death. At some age, it is more risky to take it > than not, guessing about 20 or so, and older than that for women, younger > than that for diabetics. > > > > Stand by however, for what happens in Florida in the next coupla weeks may > cause all of this to go away. If it turns out that omicron is mild and > confers natural immunity to the other variants, it might be our best bet to > go ahead and catch the damn stuff, hang out with an omicron patient. Hell > that could spawn a new micro-industry: hire a pleasant young omicroner to > hang out with you for an hour. Nothing improper you understand, just visit > and transmit, catch under controlled conditions, recover, go about your > business. An ailing species heals. > Why do you think that the virus would be less likely to cause long term side-effects than the vaccine? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 16:26:06 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 08:26:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <004201d7fb2f$1008b600$301a2200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a501d7fb3e$73a3fcb0$5aebf610$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via ? On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 7:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?hire a pleasant young omicroner to hang out with you for an hour. Nothing improper you understand, just visit and transmit, catch under controlled conditions, recover, go about your business. An ailing species heals. >?Why do you think that the virus would be less likely to cause long term side-effects than the vaccine? -- Stathis Papaioannou Because it?s naaaatural! Therefore it hasta be good, ja? {8^D We don?t know, Stathis. That is exactly why government mandates are bad. Everyone should be free to make their own decision on their own health circumstances. Then we have no one to blame but ourselves. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 16:34:33 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:34:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <00a501d7fb3e$73a3fcb0$5aebf610$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <004201d7fb2f$1008b600$301a2200$@rainier66.com> <00a501d7fb3e$73a3fcb0$5aebf610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 11:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > We don?t know, Stathis. That is exactly why government mandates are bad. > Everyone should be free to make their own decision on their own health > circumstances. Then we have no one to blame but ourselves. > Personal freedom is limited when it involves endangering others. You should be free to make your own health decisions as long as they don't endanger others. Don't want to vax? Fine: stay home or stay away from others. Don't want to wear a mask? Same deal. These are common sense, whether they're mandated or not. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 16:46:29 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 16:46:29 +0000 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <004201d7fb2f$1008b600$301a2200$@rainier66.com> <00a501d7fb3e$73a3fcb0$5aebf610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 at 16:36, Dave S via extropy-chat wrote: > > Personal freedom is limited when it involves endangering others. You should be free to make your own health decisions as long as they don't endanger others. Don't want to vax? Fine: stay home or stay away from others. Don't want to wear a mask? Same deal. > > These are common sense, whether they're mandated or not. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ Ohhh, personal freedom, is it really? Somebody said that when we had the lockdowns, in practice what that meant was that the middle and upper classes hid in their homes and the lower classes delivered stuff to them. Not much freedom for the manual workers. BillK From sparge at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 17:03:28 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:03:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <004201d7fb2f$1008b600$301a2200$@rainier66.com> <00a501d7fb3e$73a3fcb0$5aebf610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 11:49 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 at 16:36, Dave S via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Personal freedom is limited when it involves endangering others. You > should be free to make your own health decisions as long as they don't > endanger others. Don't want to vax? Fine: stay home or stay away from > others. Don't want to wear a mask? Same deal. > > > > These are common sense, whether they're mandated or not. > > Ohhh, personal freedom, is it really? > Somebody said that when we had the lockdowns, in practice what that > meant was that the middle and upper classes hid in their homes and the > lower classes delivered stuff to them. > Not much freedom for the manual workers. > They're free not to work, of course, but given that they can't afford that luxury, mandates aiming to ensure safe working conditions seem like a good thing, no? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 18:41:12 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:41:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01d7fb51$530a36a0$f91ea3e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat >?My wife got eye flashes in one eye last spring?. I googled and there is a possibility that the vaccine caused it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358769/ -Dave Sorry to hear of it Dave. The hell of it is: there is no incentive to ever study this possible correlation. For both the government and Moderna (and Pfizer) there is strong disincentive to study it or even know about it, for they hold no liability as is. If we discover there is good justification to think the covid vaccine may be linked to these kinds of auto-immune conditions, there is no incentive to tell patients of the risk, and plenty of disincentive. Then we continue to press on, presenting only the benefit side and never the risk side, because the risk model is unknown. Every time I hear something like this I think of that pharmacist who appears to be deeply conflicted about all this. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 18:50:04 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:50:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <001e01d7fb51$530a36a0$f91ea3e0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d7fb51$530a36a0$f91ea3e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d7fb52$90231fb0$b0695f10$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat >?My wife got eye flashes in one eye last spring?. I googled and there is a possibility that the vaccine caused it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358769/ -Dave It would be an interesting experiment to post this comment and the link to twitter and face book, see if it gets banned. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 19:36:48 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:36:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <002501d7fb52$90231fb0$b0695f10$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d7fb51$530a36a0$f91ea3e0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7fb52$90231fb0$b0695f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000e01d7fb59$17a9bce0$46fd36a0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] vaccine dark humor From: spike at rainier66.com > From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat >?My wife got eye flashes in one eye last spring?. I googled and there is a possibility that the vaccine caused it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358769/ -Dave >?It would be an interesting experiment to post this comment and the link to twitter and face book, see if it gets banned. >?spike It would be an interesting experiment to tweet and face book this comment, without context. If it gets banned either place, then include the same comment with the link above. There may be a correlation between ocular inflammatory diseases with autoimmune mechanism and the mRNA COVID-19 vaccination. I can?t do it myself because I don?t have accounts there. Anyone up for a little experimentation? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 27 21:40:57 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 13:40:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine test lab In-Reply-To: <002f01d7fadb$facade60$f0609b20$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d7faa3$cf2ee810$6d8cb830$@rainier66.com> <006301d7faa6$8bf51990$a3df4cb0$@rainier66.com> <002f01d7fadb$facade60$f0609b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001801d7fb6a$6f84ac70$4e8e0550$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ >?After two long years of wondering? it is entirely possible we will find out a whole bunch of answers in the coming week or two. If the fatality rate in Florida launches like one of Mr. Musk?s creations, then the nightmare continues indefinitely, we can look forward to more lockdowns and mandates of all kinds, failed businesses, another horrifying round of death and social destruction. If it doesn?t? good chance this nightmare is coming to a close. ?.spike I just got a pile of fresh data from Florida and I can cheerfully report so far so good, along with a huge caveat: we may not have complete data because of the Christmas holiday. The death rate reported today shows a weekly average lower than the week before. But this is preliminary data. The agency reporting (Florida Today) can?t guarantee the number won?t change, and it can only go up. If it doesn?t go up much? it suggests most of those new cases in Florida are the apparently-mild omicron and that omicron generally isn?t fatal (or even particularly severe.) Let?s get our Tigger on, and hope for the best. spike ?woohoo! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6275 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 21:41:06 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 08:41:06 +1100 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <001e01d7fb51$530a36a0$f91ea3e0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d7fb51$530a36a0$f91ea3e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 at 05:42, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dave S via extropy-chat > > > > >?My wife got eye flashes in one eye last spring?. I googled and there is > a possibility that the vaccine caused it: > > > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8358769/ > > > > -Dave > > > > > > Sorry to hear of it Dave. The hell of it is: there is no incentive to > ever study this possible correlation. For both the government and Moderna > (and Pfizer) there is strong disincentive to study it or even know about > it, for they hold no liability as is. If we discover there is good > justification to think the covid vaccine may be linked to these kinds of > auto-immune conditions, there is no incentive to tell patients of the risk, > and plenty of disincentive. Then we continue to press on, presenting only > the benefit side and never the risk side, because the risk model is unknown. > > > > Every time I hear something like this I think of that pharmacist who > appears to be deeply conflicted about all this. > Hiw did we find out about the side-effects of the vaccines we know about so far, such as myocarditis? How did we find out about the side-effects of any medical treatment? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 28 16:01:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 10:01:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] tech superstitions Message-ID: from Premium True: *Glowing Reviews:* The Authority for Nuclear Safety and Radiation Protection in the Netherlands has ordered a company to stop selling wearable ?5G signal blockers,? and recall all that they sold. The necklaces, bracelets, sleeping masks(!), and other accessories pitched for both adults and children emit something much worse than the ?radiation? of radio waves: ionizing radiation from nuclear materials. Worn long-term, the ?protective? devices dramatically increase the risk of cancer in the wearers, while there is no evidence that 5G cell phone systems create any harm at all: there is no fundamental difference between them and older 4G or 3G cellular technologies. (RC/BBC) *...There is one thing obliviots are brilliant at: hurting themselves as a way to avoid harmless things. bill w* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue Dec 28 17:09:41 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:09:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: <002a01d7f90a$080d0860$18271920$@rainier66.com> References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> <002a01d7f90a$080d0860$18271920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This article does a good job of addressing the issue of the costs of Covid policies and puts them in context by comparing to what we do about heart disease. A Perfect Storm of Incentives ? AIER [https://www.aier.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/bluestorm-1200x630-cropped.jpg] A Perfect Storm of Incentives ? AIER It is not yet clear whether history will remember the 2020s more for an outbreak of a deadly virus, or for an outbreak of mass psychosis. No doubt, both were at play, the former because the virus was novel and deadly, the latter because we had no idea how much so. www.aier.org I agree that obesity (and type-2 diabetes) are mentioned too infrequently. --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of spike jones via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, December 24, 2021 2:05 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] covid or cold? From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >>? How do we estimate the cost of continuing the shutdown? I am open to suggestion. >?Do you think that letting COVID run unchecked would be better for the economy, students, the medical system, mental health? -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, at some point we need to look at the definition of the term ?unchecked.? The countermeasures we have are masks, social distancing, vaccines and shutdowns. By now plenty of us recognize that masks are mostly for show. They might be better than nothing, but perhaps not much better. Shutdowns: it doesn?t look to me like they work all that well. Many people interpreted the stay-home mandate as a requirement to stay indoors, which increased transmission rather than decreased it, as well as causing other health problems we are still seeing. That one definitely harmed young people. We closed schools for a year, but students don?t seem to catch very easily and even if they do, their young immune systems are generally up to the task, after which they get natural immunity, which is better than medication-induced immunity. Some students prospered but generally students didn?t do as well with remote learning. Schools like to focus on the disparity between the academic haves vs have nots, well? heh? do let me assure you, that has never been so stark as it is after the year off. Some students turned stepping stones to stumbling blocks, others stumbling blocks to stepping stones. We can compare places which have shutdowns to places which do not, such as Florida vs? well pretty much anywhere else and see that without shutdowns and masks, Florida is doing well. Old population there, flabby as all hell, but doing well against covid anyway. Vaccines: I have weighed the risks and decided to go ahead with them, even though I think I have natural immunity from my Dec 2019 experience. I took a second J&J last week. Felt lousy for one day. OK, good deal. Social distancing, HEY! I am all for it. But I am that way. I am in my social element right now. I don?t need to meet and greet, when I can type and snipe. That?s my way. I am not a social butterfly, rather more of a social? cockroach. I can wave from a distance. The masks make it easy because they can assume I am smiling, when I am being a grinch back here behind this paper imaginary barrier against virii. I must grudgingly admit that plenty of people I care about are suffering terribly under the whole social distancing, the naturally gregarious types, oh they miss the big parties and night clubs and such. OK, well? I don?t know what to tell them really. At some point we really need to study what happened in Florida. Their governor said no shutdowns, no mandates. That place is a good laboratory. If our countermeasures don?t work, then ja it is harmful to keep employing them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue Dec 28 17:13:03 2021 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:13:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 and a sore arm for a day." You can reduce the risk of obesity at a cost of zero. Actually, the cost is negative, since it involves buying less food. The difficulty is not the cost, it's the mindfulness and incentive to do it. --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, December 24, 2021 3:27 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Stathis Papaioannou Subject: Re: [ExI] covid or cold? On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > wrote: For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug overdose. Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably increases chances of survival more than a vax does If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 and a sore arm for a day. On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > wrote: On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > wrote: Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even the vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did not get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people don?t like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though it means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes crashed and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and exercise, air travel would not be popular. On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat > wrote: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere lack of lethality will end it ;( Rafal _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Stathis Papaioannou _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 28 18:31:19 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 10:31:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That doesn't actually work in practice. If you simply try to eat less food, but your body is used to more, you get hungry. Literally, starvation instincts kick in, overriding mindfulness and will. I say "instincts" here to note this is akin to not flinching when picking up something hot, or not blinking when you see something about to hit your eye: those who claim it is a matter of mere willpower are wrong, based on the evidence. Now, there are ways that one can adjust one's body to result in eating less calories (the important thing), and perhaps result in eating less food. But "simply eat less", as the direct causative action, is not one of them. One example of something that can work: fill one's stomach with lower-calorie-dense substances, such as fruit and water, to put in conflict the "you need more calories" and "your stomach is full to near-vomiting" systems. (Emphasis: NEAR vomiting, as in "if you have one or two more bites" level. Going past this to where you actually vomit is not healthy. Stop when you're full enough that you can stop.) Since it is physically possible to not take in more calories but it is not physically possible to put more things in one's stomach in this state, the latter wins out. If this keeps happening, the body eventually gets used to less calories. (Don't do water-only, because the body still needs some calories and nutrients. Fruits and vegetables aren't the only possibility but they are the simplest in most cases.) Once the body is used to fewer calories, then lower amounts of higher-calorie-dense foods may satisfy the "do you have enough calories" system. One still needs to get used to eating less (or just get used to filling up on things like fruit and water on a regular basis), but this can be done after ratcheting down the alarms and instincts that press one to eat more. On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 9:17 AM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 > and a sore arm for a day." > > You can reduce the risk of obesity at a cost of zero. Actually, the cost > is negative, since it involves buying less food. > > The difficulty is not the cost, it's the mindfulness and incentive to do > it. > > --Max > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, December 24, 2021 3:27 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Stathis Papaioannou > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid or cold? > > > > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for > young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug > overdose. > > Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with > this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. > Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" > movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their > physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but > criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably > increases chances of survival more than a vax does > > > If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 and > a sore arm for a day. > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even the > vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. > > I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't > stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner > > > Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did not > get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people don?t > like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though it > means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes crashed > and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and > exercise, air travel would not be popular. > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common > cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu > mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still > don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other > brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. > > > ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid > variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by > multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to > poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere > lack of lethality will end it ;( > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 28 18:45:55 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 10:45:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003201d7fc1b$25d8ca00$718a5e00$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 9:13 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Max More Subject: Re: [ExI] covid or cold? "If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 and a sore arm for a day." You can reduce the risk of obesity at a cost of zero. Actually, the cost is negative, since it involves buying less food. The difficulty is not the cost, it's the mindfulness and incentive to do it. --Max _____ MAX! Welcome home, me lad! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 28 19:02:13 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 13:02:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have tons of weight control advice, based on Pavlov and others. Quick tips: Do not eat at fixed times. This sets up a conditioned response to feel hungry at those times. Get rid of the conditioning by eating at irregular intervals. At first you may have to just gut it out and not eat when hungry. I never said dieting was easy. Plenty more advice available. I have read several books on nutrition and dieting since the 60s along with the psych studies. I lost 40 pounds once by my methods. bill w On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 12:33 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That doesn't actually work in practice. If you simply try to eat less > food, but your body is used to more, you get hungry. Literally, starvation > instincts kick in, overriding mindfulness and will. I say "instincts" here > to note this is akin to not flinching when picking up something hot, or not > blinking when you see something about to hit your eye: those who claim it > is a matter of mere willpower are wrong, based on the evidence. > > Now, there are ways that one can adjust one's body to result in eating > less calories (the important thing), and perhaps result in eating less > food. But "simply eat less", as the direct causative action, is not one of > them. > > One example of something that can work: fill one's stomach with > lower-calorie-dense substances, such as fruit and water, to put in conflict > the "you need more calories" and "your stomach is full to near-vomiting" > systems. (Emphasis: NEAR vomiting, as in "if you have one or two more > bites" level. Going past this to where you actually vomit is not healthy. > Stop when you're full enough that you can stop.) Since it is physically > possible to not take in more calories but it is not physically possible to > put more things in one's stomach in this state, the latter wins out. If > this keeps happening, the body eventually gets used to less calories. > (Don't do water-only, because the body still needs some calories and > nutrients. Fruits and vegetables aren't the only possibility but they are > the simplest in most cases.) Once the body is used to fewer calories, then > lower amounts of higher-calorie-dense foods may satisfy the "do you have > enough calories" system. One still needs to get used to eating less (or > just get used to filling up on things like fruit and water on a > regular basis), but this can be done after ratcheting down the alarms and > instincts that press one to eat more. > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 9:17 AM Max More via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> "If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 >> and a sore arm for a day." >> >> You can reduce the risk of obesity at a cost of zero. Actually, the cost >> is negative, since it involves buying less food. >> >> The difficulty is not the cost, it's the mindfulness and incentive to do >> it. >> >> --Max >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* extropy-chat on behalf >> of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >> *Sent:* Friday, December 24, 2021 3:27 PM >> *To:* ExI chat list >> *Cc:* Stathis Papaioannou >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid or cold? >> >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for >> young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug >> overdose. >> >> Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with >> this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. >> Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" >> movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their >> physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but >> criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably >> increases chances of survival more than a vax does >> >> >> If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 >> and a sore arm for a day. >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even the >> vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. >> >> I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't >> stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner >> >> >> Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did not >> get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people don?t >> like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though it >> means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes crashed >> and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and >> exercise, air travel would not be popular. >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common >> cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu >> mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still >> don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other >> brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. >> >> >> ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid >> variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by >> multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to >> poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere >> lack of lethality will end it ;( >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Dec 28 21:26:35 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 14:26:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] A Paranormal Prediction For The Next Year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, Nice to see these still true predictions every year. The goal of Canonizer, is to rejoin all such forks (including the Ether Classic fork). I predict I will, as has been true for the same number of years, never give up, till we are successful. On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 3:18 AM John Clark wrote: > One year ago, before I was kicked out, I sent the following post to the > Extropian list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to > send this same message to this list again. > ============= > One year ago I sent the following post to the Extropian list, I did not > change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message to > this list yet again if it is still around and so am I. > > ============= > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > Happy New Year all. > > I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in > Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction, > after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no > training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the > good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this > very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I > predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about > it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an > eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs > boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in > Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true > because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in > a dream. > > PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year > from today. > > John K Clark > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1L9TRCWgUtCUzYPJ647hnLHh8stuo3RQMY9rTdNVOPYQ%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Dec 28 22:29:32 2021 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:29:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: <000e01d7fb59$17a9bce0$46fd36a0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d7fb51$530a36a0$f91ea3e0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7fb52$90231fb0$b0695f10$@rainier66.com> <000e01d7fb59$17a9bce0$46fd36a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 2:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > It would be an interesting experiment to tweet and face book this comment, > without context. If it gets banned either place, then include the same > comment with the link above. > > > > There may be a correlation between ocular inflammatory diseases with > autoimmune mechanism and the mRNA COVID-19 vaccination. > > > > I can?t do it myself because I don?t have accounts there. Anyone up for a > little experimentation? > I had no problem posting that on FB. https://www.facebook.com/dave.sill.1 -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 28 22:37:59 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 14:37:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine dark humor In-Reply-To: References: <003601d7f949$ebe2b0f0$c3a812d0$@rainier66.com> <005001d7f98f$af7726a0$0e6573e0$@rainier66.com> <006501d7f9c2$5bfae560$13f0b020$@rainier66.com> <003c01d7fa7d$532f3e20$f98dba60$@rainier66.com> <001c01d7fa8a$b9880910$2c981b30$@rainier66.com> <001d01d7fa98$7455c4f0$5d014ed0$@rainier66.com> <001a01d7fabb$43ef65f0$cbce31d0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d7fb51$530a36a0$f91ea3e0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7fb52$90231fb0$b0695f10$@rainier66.com> <000e01d7fb59$17a9bce0$46fd36a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e701d7fc3b$913a0e10$b3ae2a30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine dark humor On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 2:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: It would be an interesting experiment to tweet and face book this comment, without context. If it gets banned either place, then include the same comment with the link above. There may be a correlation between ocular inflammatory diseases with autoimmune mechanism and the mRNA COVID-19 vaccination. I can?t do it myself because I don?t have accounts there. Anyone up for a little experimentation? >?I had no problem posting that on FB. https://www.facebook.com/dave.sill.1 -Dave Thanks for that Dave. For a while, both face book and twitter were slapping down anyone who suggested that covid-19 originated in a lab rather than in the wild. They stopped doing that for some strange reason. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 28 23:55:03 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 15:55:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid good news for a change, was:RE: vaccine dark humor Message-ID: <012401d7fc46$5549d010$ffdd7030$@rainier66.com> The covid fatality rate didn?t move today in Florida. So far so good, may it stay down another day or two before we dance for joy. The Sigal Lab from South Africa is reporting that omicron produces antibodies against Delta, and if so, it explains a lotta lotta. If Sigal is right, we are waking from the horrifying nightmare after two years. Good luck to us! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 15:43:53 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:43:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] quadruple pun Message-ID: In the newspaper: How did the antelope escape? What the new gnu knew news. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 18:10:30 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 18:10:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] quadruple pun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 at 15:46, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > In the newspaper: > > How did the antelope escape? > What the new gnu knew news. > bill w > _______________________________________________ A search finds - A short quote- Works in the Herald 1935 THE ELUSIVE NEW ZOO GNU On Thursday last, the female Gnu presented the Zoo with a small, grey, white-tailed baby; but she kept the matter secret for a day or so. The director (Mr Wilkie) explained that gnus always hide their young in order to protect them till they are strong enough to walk. They had a new gnu at the Zoo And nobody knew. Tho' the keeper, they say, had a clue; And that's probably true, Since he knew a new gnu was due, And well he knew, too, That the mother would hide it from view, As a natural gnu Will do. Read on for more at the link........ :) BillK From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 01:00:14 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 01:00:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Best optical illusions 2021 Message-ID: The Best illusion of the Year Contest is a celebration of the ingenuity and creativity of the world?s premier illusion research community. Seeing isn't believing! BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 01:18:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 19:18:52 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Best optical illusions 2021 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks, bill k !! On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 7:02 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The Best illusion of the Year Contest is a celebration of the > ingenuity and creativity of the world?s premier illusion research > community. > > > > Seeing isn't believing! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 30 05:01:46 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 21:01:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] messiah virus Message-ID: <000a01d7fd3a$58eb8700$0ac29500$@rainier66.com> The South Africans are claiming that having omicron is about 75% natural immunity for delta. It's not exactly the predicted messiah virus, but OK then, we will take what we can get. The notion (as I understand it) is that a milder virus spreads better because people with it are more likely to try to power thru and stay on the job, spreading it to more healthy people. That makes sense, but it occurred to me that the vaccine is known to make a breakthru case less severe. This means the vaccinated are more likely (if they catch delta) to power thru, stay on the job, infect the unvaccinated. We have been told that the unvaccinated are a big risk to healthy people, but by that reasoning above suggests it is just the opposite: the vaccinated are more dangerous to healthy people than the unvaccinated. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 06:13:42 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 22:13:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] messiah virus In-Reply-To: <000a01d7fd3a$58eb8700$0ac29500$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d7fd3a$58eb8700$0ac29500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Dec 29, 2021, at 9:05 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > The South Africans are claiming that having omicron is about 75% natural immunity for delta. It?s not exactly the predicted messiah virus, but OK then, we will take what we can get. > > The notion (as I understand it) is that a milder virus spreads better because people with it are more likely to try to power thru and stay on the job, spreading it to more healthy people. That makes sense, but it occurred to me that the vaccine is known to make a breakthru case less severe. This means the vaccinated are more likely (if they catch delta) to power thru, stay on the job, infect the unvaccinated. > > We have been told that the unvaccinated are a big risk to healthy people, but by that reasoning above suggests it is just the opposite: the vaccinated are more dangerous to healthy people than the unvaccinated. Let?s say what you say is true. And, further, let?s say you adopt the view that there should not be any mandates or even (as in Florida, I believe) that private employers shouldn?t be allowed to require vaccination. Wouldn?t you say the wisest course would be to then both get vaccinated and advise everyone else to get vaccinated as well? (Of course, you might argue that those who can?t or absolutely won?t get vaccinated would then be at the highest risk. I?d have to see the numbers if there?s a sweet spot (or spots) where vaccination rates are optimal to account for the vaccinated causing risk ? one we haven?t already passed in respective regions.) (My fear would be, too, for the unvaccinated what I?ve seen in my working life: people staying on the job, coughing and sneezing and slobbering whole sick. This was before COVID. And I recall one person telling me he got paid for sick days he didn?t use. So at the end of the year, the sick days he didn?t use amounted an extra week?s pay. It was a bonus check for not taking off. (Under COVID, there?s a lot of pressure to take off and people are much more afraid of spreading or getting sickness. So maybe my earlier experience doesn?t apply now.) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 06:23:29 2021 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 22:23:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] book review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2021, at 8:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > 'Life as we Made It' by Beth Shapiro > > I cannot remember a book that was more stuffed with information and ideas. EXtinction. saving the bison, pollution of all kinds, lots on genetic engineering and CRiSPR and twins born in China, and hornless cattle - the past, present and future, Covid and tons more. Elegant and graceful writing. > > Got lost in some biochemistry for a few pages, but easily understood the rest. Every topic she deals with she does so in depth (occasionally more than you might want!). Lots of focus on ethics and controversies. > > Cannot recommend highly enough A+ I read that as ?_Ben_ Shapiro? and became ever more confused as I continued reading. ;) Speaking of extinctions, maybe you?d enjoy Peter Brannen?s _The Ends of the World: Volcanic Apocalypses, Lethal Oceans, and Our Quest to Understand Earth's Past Mass Extinctions_. I was happy to see him giving space to a volcanic mechanism for the End-Cretaceous Mass Extinction. I recall David Archibald?s _Dinosaur Extinction and the End of an Era_ going over this in some detail, and even mentioned it on the list years ago. I read the Brannen, though, more for his discussion of the pre-Permian mass extinctions. Wanted to see what he?d cover. And I enjoyed that much. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 06:26:52 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 01:26:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The prodigal father returns! @Adrian: he didn't say it was easy, though. Eating less IS how to lose weight. It's pretty much the only way. Yeah, you get more hungry, but you have to deal with it. I understand addiction all too well as I was addicted to heroin 5 years ago. On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 12:17 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 > and a sore arm for a day." > > You can reduce the risk of obesity at a cost of zero. Actually, the cost > is negative, since it involves buying less food. > > The difficulty is not the cost, it's the mindfulness and incentive to do > it. > > --Max > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, December 24, 2021 3:27 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Stathis Papaioannou > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] covid or cold? > > > > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 07:39, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > For me personally it's far far less than 1% (I'm 29 and healthy,) for > young healthy people it's more likely they die of a car accident or drug > overdose. > > Also, why does nobody in the mainstream ever talk about obesity with > this? Pretty much every young person you see dying from this is obese. > Yet of course we have this medically dubious "healthy at every size" > movement that makes people feel good mentally at the expense of their > physical health. People have no issue criticizing drug addicts but > criticizing food addition is a no-no, apparently. Losing weight probably > increases chances of survival more than a vax does > > > If only you could reduce the risk of obesity by 90% at the cost of $20 and > a sore arm for a day. > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 3:08 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 at 06:40, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Nah, if you really get deep into internet communities you'll see even the > vaxlovers are getting tired of this shit. > > I'm unvaxed and I still haven't gotten it. I get enough sleep, don't > stress much, and practice caloric restriction. Same for my partner > > > Most people haven?t had COVID and most people who have had COVID did not > get sick enough to end up in hospital. No-one denies that. But people don?t > like the idea that there is a 1% chance of dying from it, even though it > means there is a 99% chance of not dying from it. If 1% of planes crashed > and killed their passengers, even the healthy ones who eat well and > exercise, air travel would not be popular. > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 12:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > I keep hearing that the omicron variant looks and acts like a common > cold. If so, this is exactly what was predicted: eventually a killer-flu > mutates into something more contagious and more benign. What we still > don?t know is if one brand of covid protects the catcher from the other > brands. If it does, then omicron is the end of this tragic nightmare. > > > ### There is immunological cross-reactivity between various Covid > variants, so an infection provides some protection against reinfection by > multiple other variants. However, the tragic nightmare is a godsend to > poseurs and power-grabbers, so I wouldn't be too optimistic that a mere > lack of lethality will end it ;( > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 07:31:38 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:31:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] UN worried about police brutality against protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 11:24 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Apologies - I might've just replied to Rafal at the end of what was > otherwise a reply to Darin. > ### Apologies accepted. Misunderstandings happen. > > > ### I made a very specific argument about lockdowns and I showed the > > analogies you used on that subject were unsound. I demonstrated that > people > > venturing out in a lockdown are not "selfish polluters" and "criminally" > > stupid. > > I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not talking about a problem > with everyone going out in to public - I have a problem with people who > are unvaccinated and anti-mask going out in to public. ### OK. I am reading "Viral", a fascinating book about the origin of the Wuhan virus, written by the inestimable science writer and thinker Matt Ridley and the published virologist Alina Chan. There is a lot of information there including some very thought-provoking descriptions of "attendant-borne illness" and its evolution. I'll post on the list specifically about masking later when I am done with the book but in the meantime let me repost something I wrote as comment on Scott Alexander's new blog: I will freely admit that being forced to wear a mask makes me extremely angry, to the point of becoming an obstreperous and loudly arguing lout, which is not my usual manner. Once while on call at the hospital I heard a young child loudly screaming as his parents were physically forcing a mask on his face, while also loudly screaming at him "You will wear a mask!!!". At that time there was no requirement for small children to be masked, so maybe I could have intervened, but then, it's not my job. I felt sorrow at the suffering and anger. I got angry. I walked away. They said they will have me marked down on the no-fly-list if I don't immediately obey and put the piece of trash they gave me on my face. I was angry but couldn't walk away. I obeyed. I saw pictures of Fauci wearing a mask while pitching a baseball, in the middle of the field where no viral transmission takes place but immediately taking it off while hanging out with friends. I read his leaked email where he wrote that masks were useless but then I kept hearing about my duty to "save others" by wearing them. Did I mention I get angry a lot when masks are mentioned? A tiny harm to self looms larger than large harms to others. I was never locked down. I worked 359 nights last year. The loss and suffering that lockdowns inflicted on others never affected me. I signed up for the vaccine on the first date it was offered at the hospital, so a vaccine mandate never affected me either. But every time I see a patient, I feel like a clown because I am wearing a mask, and that hurts me, every day, many times. The anger builds. I am not into BDSM. If I were bound and masked, I would feel anger, because being bound and masked is dehumanizing and humiliating. So, no, I am not into BDSM. Last week I stormed out of a restaurant, angry, when they demanded I put on a mask while walking away from my table, because they had to "protect other people" (who were busily expelling millions of aerosol droplets while masticating and talking), from my filthy, unmasked presence. Yeah, I do get angry about masks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 08:26:36 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 03:26:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Grand Arc of Humanity In-Reply-To: <20210424144022.Horde.oNS7oJgTRZfj9UCyBVRNLRk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210424144022.Horde.oNS7oJgTRZfj9UCyBVRNLRk@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: A very, very delayed response.... On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 5:43 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > > > Did you ever wonder what was the specific, unique development in the > > history of the world that set humans on our path, separate from animals > and > > out to reach the stars? > > I agree that the Grand Arc of humanity does seem to an improbably long > queue of positive feedback loops. These loops became links in a causal > chain that led to humanity's current ascendancy. Exactly which link > set us apart from other animals is not easy to discern. > > > I don't mean all the prerequisites for humans to exist. There is a > > combination of string landscape properties that defines the specific > > physics that allowed inflation, hydrogen and gravity, which allowed for > the > > formation of stars that are necessary for humans, but stars are also > needed > > for chloroplasts and rhodobacteria, so this is not specific enough. > Nuclei > > and mitochondria were needed to create larger creatures, such as humans > but > > nuclei and mitochondria also created snails and trees, so again not > > specific enough. Trees populated by snails and the like created an > unusual > > ecological niche, that of a tree-dwelling fast moving omnivorous creature > > with stereoscopic vision and arms adapted to the grasping of sticks, and > we > > needed our vision and arms to become what we are but then lemurs, gibbons > > and hundreds of other primate species have been around for 55 million > > years, so these adaptations are not sufficient for an intelligent species > > to appear, or else ruins of cities older than the Himalayas would be > > littering the planet. The ability to use tools such as sticks and to have > > rudimentary language also isn't sufficiently specific, since apes have > been > > doing these things for millions of years and were getting nowhere fast. > > > > But there came a day when an Australopithecine made a stick that was > longer > > and sharper than what the chimpanzee uses to dig for tubers and to pick > > termite mounds. That stick could hurt if used by a creature with > > stereoscopic vision and strong, grasping hands. That stick could be > thrust > > at a predator, or prey. > > If that's the case, then these Senegalese chimps have caught onto the > "longer sharper stick" idea. They fashion spears to hunt bush-babies > that hide in tree hollows. Curiously these spears are more often used > by females who cannot run down their prey the way the males do due to > being encumbered by clinging offspring. Of course, if your hypothesis > is correct, this raises the question of why there are no chimp cities? > > > https://phys.org/news/2015-04-chimps-senegal-fashion-spears.html#:~:text=To%20date%2C%20the%20chimps%20are,not%20count%20that%20as%20hunting > . > ### This is very interesting and thank you for providing this information. As I said, I think the sharp stick was the keystone invention that set us up for wild success but of course, there were many other prerequisites and chimps may be missing some of them (as you mention later in your post). Also, chimps' chances of branching out into the cognitive niche may have been preempted by our ancestors. It's hard to work on your tool development skills if competitors with a 3 million year head start already filled most of the available space. ----------------------------- > > > An Australopithecine on the ground + leopard means > > a snack for the leopard but an Australopithecine + sharp stick + leopard > > means a very sore leopard, possibly even a big dinner for the ape. The > > sharp stick completely changed the equation. It propelled the > > Australopithecine from the rank of lowly scavenger and often easy prey to > > the level of a moderately bad-ass all-around brawler, not hardcore enough > > to take on lions but just too tough to kill under most circumstances. It > > changed the ape from an occasional hunter to a frequent hunter, giving > > access to the meat and the marrow and the energy to feed a bigger brain > > without forcing an increase in size. > > But as the Senegalese chimps demonstrate, a sharp stick, while > necessary, is not sufficient. Australopithecus was bipedal, which > meant it could wield the sharp stick with both hands and therefore > significant force and even the momentum of a running start. The sharp > stick is just a sharp stick without the improbably long queue of > happenstance that that allowed the utility of the sharp stick to be > maximized. The following video demonstrates my point that > knuckle-walkers cannot effectively weaponize sticks against predators: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKpZUsRJWBg ### Indeed, a very good point. ----------------------------------- > > And most importantly, this is the > > first time in the history of the Earth that the survival and thriving of > a > > social, large, terrestrial animal with stereoscopic vision and > manipulatory > > appendages became dependent on the creation of a tool - a tool not merely > > aiding survival, like a stone wielded by a monkey to crush nuts, but > > actually indispensable for survival due to the incredible boost in > > abilities it afforded the user. The sharp stick was just such an amazing > > quantum leap that once the ape learned to use it, the ape couldn't live > > without it and it became a hominid. > > I think what set the Australopithecine apart was not just tool-use but > metatool-use. There really isn't a good word for the concept yet but I > suppose metatechnology or metacrafting might work. Basically it just > means the fashioning of tools that can then be used to create other > tools that can then be used to create yet other tools and so forth. > For example, while several species (both primates and birds) have been > observed using rocks as hammers to smash open food items. But using > rocks as hammers to knapp pieces of flint into blades that can then be > used to sharpen sticks that can then be used to hunt prey . . . that > seems like an exclusively hominid trick thus far. After all, what good > using a sharp stick to bring down big prey if you are having to > butcher it with your teeth and fingernails? They have found fossilized > animal bones dated to 3.3 million years ago, the time of > Australopithecus, that show cracks, groves, and abrasions consistent > with the use of stone tools. > ### You make a good point about one technology begetting another - indeed, Australopithecines had to start that chain where each new link opens connections to new possibilities. I would still contend that at the beginning of that chain, or perhaps tech tree (well-known to players of Civilization), there was the sharp stick. Working stone to make tools came later. What counts as the springboard to the cognitive niche is not a specific technology but rather the state of being dependent for survival on a technology that can be improved. This creates a positive feedback loop where those individuals that have the cognitive skills needed to improve technology and learn the use of new technologies from others have significant fitness advantage over those with merely social intelligence, which leads to improved cognitive skills, which lead to more complex technology becoming possible, which puts a premium on having even better cognitive skills, etc. etc. Initially the progress is still slow, since the evolution of individual cognition is biological but once more cognitive skills accumulate, progress speeds up because more complexity is off-loaded onto the technological or memetic level, where rapid non-biological adaptation is possible. This is why the time from early Paleolithic to late Paleolithic (the time when Neanderthals died out and humans became seemingly very similar to us and still used only relatively simple stone tools) was 2.5 million years but the time to Sputnik was just 35 thousand years. > > > So here is my opinion about when the Grand Arc of Humanity started - > with a > > big, sharp stick. Everything before was generic, prerequisites like size, > > stereoscopic vision, manipulatory arms, sociality, all necessary but > > insufficient to create something as unique as us. The sharp stick was the > > keystone to the portal to the technological civilization that opened > before > > the Australopithecine - all of what followed flowed then logically from > > that point. The need to make and use a tool prevented us from becoming > > generic predators that survive by the tooth and claw. The sharp stick is > an > > external adaptation - not of the body but dependent on the learning mind > > for its usefulness. The ability to use the sharp stick channeled our > > evolution towards the use of more and more tools, with ever less need for > > genetic adaptation and more cultural transmission. Apes can use fire and > > love cooked foods but they wouldn't benefit from fire much even if they > > could maintain it. > > How much of that is related to environmental selective effects? If one > relocated enough chimps to a colder temperate climate, say Europe, > then after several generations of selection, might not the survivors > be more predatory and adept at fire use? > ### I don't think that cold climate played a beneficial role in our evolution, at least not until quite recently. Anatomically modern humans evolved in Africa and developed a more sophisticated technological kit than Neanderthals and Denisovans who evolved in the cold North. --------------------------------------------------- > > > Hominids with sharp sticks can feed the fire with meat > > and can fend off predators while on the ground, which is why we lost the > > adaptations to swing from tree branches and improved our ground mobility. > > The sharp stick can also be thrown - it became the spear, and that moved > > the hominid to the rank of serious badass, the kind you want to stay away > > from. Access to fire gave us cooked food which reduced the amount of time > > needed to chew from 6 hours a day to 30 minutes and it freed 25% of our > > metabolic energy from digestion to thinking, so our brains grew because > we > > had the time and the energy to actually use them. Bigger brains meant > more > > ability to invent cultural adaptations, which meant stronger pressure for > > bigger brains and also dramatically faster adaptability to changed > > circumstances, which meant spreading throughout the world of different > > climates and different food sources. Finally, the sharp stick meant we > > could kill each other from ambush, safely, leading to the > > self-domestication of us, H. sapiens, and extinction of the other Homo's. > > While I don't think it was a sharp stick alone that carried the day > for humanity, I think you are not far off. I instead think it was the > development of metatechnology embodied as stone tools that could be > used to reliably cut and sharpen wooden sticks, butcher dead animals, > and in the case of flint, also start fires that was the hominid killer > app. It was likely not an accident that the stone handaxe became a > dominant feature of hominid life for over 1.5 million years. > ### We find the hand-axes while the sticks turned to dust....but back then Man's Mighty Spear carried the day :)) > > > A bunch of positive feedback loops started with this first technology and > > in geologically no time at all propelled us to the moon and beyond. > > > > The Grand Arc of Humanity is now close to its end. H.sapiens will soon > > disappear, hopefully by uploading, maybe in other ways. But it all > started > > with a sharp stick held by a hungry ape. > > > > Rafal > > Thanks for a thought provoking post, Rafal. If you beefed it up with > some references and alternative lines of evidence and reasoning, then > you might have the makings of popular science book on your hands. You > write well enough that you should at least consider the possibility. > > ### Thank you for the encouragement. Working 359 12-hour shifts per year does put a damper on my other activities though. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 10:22:16 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 05:22:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Great Culling In-Reply-To: <20210614041116.Horde.1jq5OnkMk7LZ9Ow0ok5rRrv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20210614041116.Horde.1jq5OnkMk7LZ9Ow0ok5rRrv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 7:13 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > In fact, all but three of the geographic region/culture on the graph > experienced the Culling almost immediately after domesticating a > specific animal. The East and South East Asians were culled right > after they domesticated chickens and pigs. The Andean people in South > America experienced the Culling right after they domesticated the > llama and the alpaca. Chickens, pigs, and llamas have no obvious use > in warfare, yet nonetheless presaged the Culling in their respective > cultures. > ### Animal domestication is a proxy for farming and high-density settlements. A transition from hunting-gathering to farming and animal husbandry will reduce genetic diversity in two ways: Firstly, the initially small farmer founding population will explode in numbers thanks to being able to harvest a much higher fraction of available biomass per square mile, and their Y lineages will simply outnumber the hunter-gatherer lineages (this is a relative reduction of lineage diversity due to founder effects). Secondly, living in high-density settlements accelerates evolution of cooperative behaviors, especially the ability to avoid intragroup violence (elimination of jerks started long before agriculture but high-density living accelerated it significantly because of the significantly higher psychological stress associated with this lifestyle - the calm ones survive relatively better when people are cooped-up). Such highly cooperative and numerous farmers can wear the less organized and less numerous hunter-gatherers down over time, but of course they will kill only men, and keep women as property. This will be an absolute reduction in Y lineage diversity. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 10:28:57 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 05:28:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 2:28 AM Will Steinberg wrote: > cringe > ### Why? Rafal > > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 12:58 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 1:39 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On 2021-6-12 01:16, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >>> > Amen to that....these perversions of justice need to stop >>> > ....all of them.... except the death penalty. >>> > >>> > I wish death on my criminal enemies. I am given to >>> vicious vengefulness >>> > and have no moral qualms about hiring policemen, lawyers and >>> executioners. >>> >>> How many false positives is your vengeance worth? >>> >>> >> ### That depends on my mood. About 2% is usual but on the day of wrath I >> might acquiesce to a much higher number. >> >> Nil inultum remanebit. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Schuyler Biotech PLLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 10:37:44 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 05:37:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:27 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Do you think that letting COVID run unchecked would be better for the > economy, students, the medical system, mental health? > >> -- ### This is a trick question, like when you ask somebody if he is beating his wife. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 11:39:38 2021 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 22:39:38 +1100 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 21:40, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:27 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Do you think that letting COVID run unchecked would be better for the >> economy, students, the medical system, mental health? >> >>> -- > > > ### This is a trick question, like when you ask somebody if he is beating > his wife. > No, you could honestly answer yes, no or I don?t know without incriminating yourself. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 11:46:26 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 06:46:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 6:39 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 21:40, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:27 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Do you think that letting COVID run unchecked would be better for the >>> economy, students, the medical system, mental health? >>> >>>> -- >> >> >> ### This is a trick question, like when you ask somebody if he is beating >> his wife. >> > > No, you could honestly answer yes, no or I don?t know without > incriminating yourself. > >> -- ### If you ask somebody out of the blue whether he is engaging in heinous behavior, you are implying he might be a heinous person. It's an accusation masquerading as a question. You don't ask people if they are flat-earthers unless you want to cast doubt on their sanity, either. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 30 13:42:38 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 05:42:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] messiah virus In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d7fd3a$58eb8700$0ac29500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007c01d7fd83$1cf59a80$56e0cf80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] messiah virus On Dec 29, 2021, at 9:05 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?We have been told that the unvaccinated are a big risk to healthy people, but by that reasoning above suggests it is just the opposite: the vaccinated are more dangerous to healthy people than the unvaccinated. >?Let?s say what you say is true. And, further, let?s say you adopt the view that there should not be any mandates or even (as in Florida, I believe) that private employers shouldn?t be allowed to require vaccination. Wouldn?t you say the wisest course would be to then both get vaccinated and advise everyone else to get vaccinated as well?... Partly right. The best course is to get vaccinated if one is in one or more of the higher risk categories: older than about? 30, higher contact with the proletariat, diabetic, the known stuff. Advise others: if they are in one or more of the higher risk categories, ja. Otherwise nein. >?(My fear would be, too, for the unvaccinated what I?ve seen in my working life: people staying on the job, coughing and sneezing and slobbering whole sick?. Ja. The vaccinated who are strong vaccine believers might stay on the job longer, assuming what they have is a cold. Omicron is difficult to distinguish from a cold, but the vaccine is mostly irrelevant for omicron anyway because it apparently doesn?t stop it. We don?t have the Florida fatality data yet, so we still can?t say. Good chance we will know more soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 18:17:04 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 10:17:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 3:49 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 6:39 AM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 21:40, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 3:27 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Do you think that letting COVID run unchecked would be better for the >>>> economy, students, the medical system, mental health? >>>> >>>>> -- >>> >>> >>> ### This is a trick question, like when you ask somebody if he is >>> beating his wife. >>> >> >> No, you could honestly answer yes, no or I don?t know without >> incriminating yourself. >> >>> -- > > > ### If you ask somebody out of the blue whether he is engaging in heinous > behavior, you are implying he might be a heinous person. It's an accusation > masquerading as a question. You don't ask people if they are flat-earthers > unless you want to cast doubt on their sanity, either. > Except that a number of people really do believe that letting COVID run unchecked would be better for everyone - or at least, they say they do. That you label this as heinous behavior answers the question in your case: you clearly do not believe that letting COVID run unchecked would be better. A lot of people (perhaps most?) believe that letting it run unchecked - again, as a number of other people advocate - would indeed be heinous. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 18:32:52 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 13:32:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Just the language used, day of wrath, Latin, etc. Comes off like the kind of shit I see on 4chan. Also the death penalty is wrong and the state should not be given the authority to murder unless it is in active self defense On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 5:32 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 2:28 AM Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> cringe >> > > ### Why? > > Rafal > >> >> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 12:58 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 1:39 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2021-6-12 01:16, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> > Amen to that....these perversions of justice need to stop >>>> > ....all of them.... except the death penalty. >>>> > >>>> > I wish death on my criminal enemies. I am given to >>>> vicious vengefulness >>>> > and have no moral qualms about hiring policemen, lawyers and >>>> executioners. >>>> >>>> How many false positives is your vengeance worth? >>>> >>>> >>> ### That depends on my mood. About 2% is usual but on the day of wrath I >>> might acquiesce to a much higher number. >>> >>> Nil inultum remanebit. >>> >>> Rafal >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> > > -- > Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD > Schuyler Biotech PLLC > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 18:40:42 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 12:40:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: <92998AF4-C86E-413B-AE2F-228CB2DF93BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Somebody stole your girlfriend. Are you going to spend the rest of your life trying to get even with that person? Why cause yourself all that grief? So you find him and punch him out. Did that satisfy you in the long run? I think that's adolescent behavior. Your former girlfriend now thinks that it was her lucky day when she left you. Is that OK with you? Forgiveness has to be permanent - for your sake. Some don't like it because they think that it resets everything to zero. Nope. Those doctors, now certainly dead, still were worthy of revilement from me after I forgave them. But it was a cold thing: I didn't burn any calories hating them. bill w On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 11:44 AM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Thanks for those great thoughts, William. I didn't know that > about your parents. Is that story written up, somewhere? > > I do think forgiveness is great, but I consider it only temporary. For me > it's all about a full restitution, with interest, to achieve perfect > justice. All vengeance does is make more restitution work necessary before > perfect justice can be achieved. I have faith that we are heading in that > direction and that some day we will get there. Most people will never give > up till we do get there. That's what enables me to accept forgiveness, at > least temporarily. One might considered this way of acting as selfish, > because the people that give today, will be the inheritors in the end, as > in the first shall be last, and visa versa. > > Always forgive, never forget. > > > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 10:09 AM William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I taught courses in Learning for over 30 years and I can testify that >> punishment, of the positive kind ( as opposed to the negative kind, where a >> response results in the withdrawal of something good, like taking a toy >> away) has so many unfortunate side effects, often worse than the behavior >> being punished, that I would never recommend it in child raising unless the >> behavior being punished is actually dangerous to the person or to others. >> >> I would love to have vengeance against the doctors that killed both my >> parents, but I could not. You have to have very deep pockets to sue a >> medical person, and of course I didn't. So I have to forgive them to get >> rid of the depressions and grudges I held. I think forgiving shows moral >> superiority. >> >> Putting a person in prison is a case that reinforces that notion. The >> only positive thing it does is to keep someone off the streets for awhile. >> The horrible conditions in prisons here in Mississippi only strengthen >> hostility of the prisoners to society in general and conservatives are >> happy to keep cutting prison budgets so they can suffer even more from >> clogged toilets, terrible food, and more. Sensory deprivation, aka total >> isolation, is cruel and unusual punishment but often used. Result: prison >> riots that more than occasionally kill some inmates. And who cares >> about them? Then they are turned loose to do it again. Some people can be >> rehabilitated. Some can get off their addictions, but they get no help >> here. No money for programs like these. >> >> So - vengeance against lawbreakers is misplaced in many ways, but of >> course conservatives would not dream of 'coddling' criminals. Creating >> pain and suffering are their only weapons and they are simply not working, >> as recidivism statistics reveal. Studies of positive punishment of >> children are similar: kids grow up worse if the only discipline is >> physical - numerous studies on that. In poor, esp. in minority >> communities, kids learn that they have done something wrong when they are >> yelled at and hit, and yelling and hitting them becomes the only thing >> that gets their attention. This is why minority kids act up in schools - >> no one can yell or hit them, so they don't take anything seriously. >> >> Try forgiveness, even of poor drivers. It will improve your mental >> health and overall attitude towards living. >> >> This really requires a much longer post with added references to studies, >> but maybe it's a start. bill w >> >> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 9:25 AM John Clark wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 9:33 AM Brent Allsop >>> wrote: >>> >>> *> Hi John,* >>>> *Seems to me morality can be based on some, what seem to me to be >>>> necessary fundamental truths, like existence or living is better than >>>> dying,* >>>> >>> >>> Usually yeah, but I think oblivion would be preferable to intense >>> unrelenting pain. >>> >>> >>>> * > knowing is better than not knowing (i.e. "find out more about how >>>> the universe works",* >>>> >>> >>> That would be my opinion, but I don't know how to logically prove it. I >>> don't think there's any chance of ever developing a morality that is both >>> complete and self consistent since it's impossible to do that even for >>> something as straightforward as arithmetic. >>> >>> *> social is better than anti social...* >>>> >>> >>> Some people would just prefer to be alone, I don't think that is either >>> good or evil it's just a preference, and there's no disputing matters >>> of taste. >>> >>> >>>> *> This is why evolution towards that which is better is a logically >>>> necessity, in any sufficiently complex system.* >>>> *The opposite of evolution is logically impossible, right?* >>>> >>> >>> It's improbable Evolution will precisely retrace its steps, but that >>> doesn't mean a human would conclude the end results will always be an >>> improvement. Evolution's goal is not to increase complexity or to become >>> more intelligent but to get more genes into the next generation by >>> outcompeting the competition. And sometimes that results in something >>> simpler, dumber and more primitive; for example that is often seen in the >>> evolution of non-parasites into parasites. >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "extropolis" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1zxrqzZkRE-40Zi2iNcHBeFT%2BC9%3Dy6vXCZQ2O5X%2BgGXw%40mail.gmail.com >>> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEYF%2B61uMQH%3DLwDCMo7Ji%2BLMK0y%2BZ6EFaQLML7m6BcCsYA%40mail.gmail.com >> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onud3tgeENfyakCEeF%2B9G-mpqk7KEZ1w7gMSpkQBU8V4Rw%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 18:43:50 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 12:43:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I support the death penalty only in extreme cases, where the guilt is 100% certain and the crime was truly beastly. I am not fond of life imprisonment either. Wasted life on their part and wasted money on ours. bill w On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 12:34 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Just the language used, day of wrath, Latin, etc. Comes off like the kind > of shit I see on 4chan. Also the death penalty is wrong and the state > should not be given the authority to murder unless it is in active self > defense > > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021, 5:32 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 2:28 AM Will Steinberg >> wrote: >> >>> cringe >>> >> >> ### Why? >> >> Rafal >> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 12:58 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 1:39 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2021-6-12 01:16, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> > Amen to that....these perversions of justice need to stop >>>>> > ....all of them.... except the death penalty. >>>>> > >>>>> > I wish death on my criminal enemies. I am given to >>>>> vicious vengefulness >>>>> > and have no moral qualms about hiring policemen, lawyers and >>>>> executioners. >>>>> >>>>> How many false positives is your vengeance worth? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ### That depends on my mood. About 2% is usual but on the day of wrath >>>> I might acquiesce to a much higher number. >>>> >>>> Nil inultum remanebit. >>>> >>>> Rafal >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD >> Schuyler Biotech PLLC >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 30 19:04:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 11:04:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] no data today Message-ID: <004701d7fdb0$0de0d9b0$29a28d10$@rainier66.com> This graph has been from the New York Times. In the past they have been very punctual with data, with Florida reporting on Mondays and Thursdays. Monday Florida reported 42, which is fairly light for a Monday. I expected they would have number up today, but they don't. So. tomorrow we find out, since this week is long enough to see a signal if omicron slays proles. From the South Africa data, it appears it doesn't. This first graph is covid fatalities in Florida, showing a relatively low 18 per day, which is less than one fatality per day per million population in that crowded state: This is the new case data from Florida. It has been more than 2 weeks now since it took off, so if we don't see big fatality numbers today, it is good news. If the South Africans are right, that omicron results in about 75% natural immunity from delta and doesn't slay proles, then this is good news indeed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25195 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 32586 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 19:13:55 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 11:13:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] no data today In-Reply-To: <004701d7fdb0$0de0d9b0$29a28d10$@rainier66.com> References: <004701d7fdb0$0de0d9b0$29a28d10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Is that a lack of data, or "no" data as in the data is zero? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 30 19:27:51 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 11:27:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] no data today In-Reply-To: References: <004701d7fdb0$0de0d9b0$29a28d10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006901d7fdb3$56b1dfb0$04159f10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2021 11:14 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] no data today >?Is that a lack of data, or "no" data as in the data is zero? I don?t think they have updated it yet Adrian. The way the NYT has been reporting Florida covid fatality data, it is zero on every day except Mondays and Thursdays, where it has been coming to about in the 60 to 80s usually for those days, for a weekly rolling average around 20. They are currently showing zero for today, so I assume it means they haven?t updated yet. The Christmas holiday has likely interfered with record keeping at a critical time. We expected a Thanksgiving case surge, and oh mercy did we ever have that, eeesh. Now we are hearing most of the new cases in Florida are omicron, and the South Africans say it isn?t that severe. If they are right, then we can expect Florida?s fatality rate to decline and everywhere else on the globe along with it. Our hopes have been dashed so many times before, with the fall of 2020 surge, the general failure to live up to they hype for the vaccines (all of them (ja I know they work some (but they weren?t the miracle we hoped for (and were told they were)))) The lockdowns generally didn?t work, or worked less than we hoped, while doing enormous economic damage. If omicron is that variant predicted from the start, less harmful, more contagious, results in at least moderate immunity to the other variants, then we should know pretty dang soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 20:27:16 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 15:27:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My main reason for not using it is that Brent shills it far too often. You gotta give it a rest, man. Would be better to just make a thread about the website itself instead of soft shilling it in so many other discussions. It comes off as very robotic On Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 12:04 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have no desire to engage in your Web site (do not bother trying to > convince me otherwise: you are unable to address my reasons for not wanting > to do so, as you have demonstrated that you will not understand them even > if I explain them again), but I can point out a flaw in your reasoning: you > assume intent. > > Most - basically all - behavior that delays resurrection capability is > done out of ignorance: the person is unaware of the concept of > resurrection, at least in any non-supernatural, potentially-non-fictional > form. > > Most - basically all - of said behavior that is not done out of ignorance, > is done out of disbelief: the person is aware that some people believe it > is theoretically possible but personally believes those people are > mistaken, that it is not theoretically possible and thus that there are no > moral consequences for delaying what can never happen anyway. > > There is either extremely little, quite possibly literally no, behavior > that delays resurrection that is performed with the intent of delaying > resurrection. "Manslaughter" would be a more accurate term than "murder". > > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:56 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Fellow transhumanists, >> >> >> We?re seek to build and track consensus around a definition of evil in a >> camp we?re newly calling ?Liciferian Murder >> ?. If anyone >> agrees that this as a good example of evil, we would love your support. >> And if not, we?d love to hear why, possibly in a competing camp. >> >> >> Already getting the typical blow back of polarizing bleating and tweeting >> from some fundamentalists, but as usual, nobody yet willing to canonize a >> competing POV which would enable movement towards moral consensus. >> >> >> Brent >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 20:35:15 2021 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 13:35:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Will, Sorry. Note taken. I just so often see everyone exhaustively bleating and tweeting the same old mostly mistaken arguments, add infinitem all this effort only polarizing everyone, it is very frustrating to me, when so much more could be accomplished with far less work. On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:28 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My main reason for not using it is that Brent shills it far too often. > You gotta give it a rest, man. Would be better to just make a thread about > the website itself instead of soft shilling it in so many other > discussions. It comes off as very robotic > > On Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 12:04 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I have no desire to engage in your Web site (do not bother trying to >> convince me otherwise: you are unable to address my reasons for not wanting >> to do so, as you have demonstrated that you will not understand them even >> if I explain them again), but I can point out a flaw in your reasoning: you >> assume intent. >> >> Most - basically all - behavior that delays resurrection capability is >> done out of ignorance: the person is unaware of the concept of >> resurrection, at least in any non-supernatural, potentially-non-fictional >> form. >> >> Most - basically all - of said behavior that is not done out of >> ignorance, is done out of disbelief: the person is aware that some people >> believe it is theoretically possible but personally believes those people >> are mistaken, that it is not theoretically possible and thus that there are >> no moral consequences for delaying what can never happen anyway. >> >> There is either extremely little, quite possibly literally no, behavior >> that delays resurrection that is performed with the intent of delaying >> resurrection. "Manslaughter" would be a more accurate term than "murder". >> >> On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 6:56 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Fellow transhumanists, >>> >>> >>> We?re seek to build and track consensus around a definition of evil in a >>> camp we?re newly calling ?Liciferian Murder >>> ?. If anyone >>> agrees that this as a good example of evil, we would love your support. >>> And if not, we?d love to hear why, possibly in a competing camp. >>> >>> >>> Already getting the typical blow back of polarizing bleating and >>> tweeting from some fundamentalists, but as usual, nobody yet willing to >>> canonize a competing POV which would enable movement towards moral >>> consensus. >>> >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 30 20:46:10 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 12:46:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] china deploys kill bots Message-ID: <001a01d7fdbe$47304bc0$d590e340$@rainier66.com> We knew this was coming. China has deployed kill bots along the border with India. Now we wait to see if India has those too. Sooner or later, we will likely see bot vs bot battles. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35361 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 20:51:54 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 14:51:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] china deploys kill bots In-Reply-To: <001a01d7fdbe$47304bc0$d590e340$@rainier66.com> References: <001a01d7fdbe$47304bc0$d590e340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, is bot v. bot an improvement? Video games for adults? bill w On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 2:48 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > We knew this was coming. China has deployed kill bots along the border > with India. > > > > > > Now we wait to see if India has those too. Sooner or later, we will > likely see bot vs bot battles. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35361 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 30 21:07:19 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 13:07:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] china deploys kill bots In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d7fdbe$47304bc0$d590e340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d7fdc1$3b942900$b2bc7b00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] china deploys kill bots >?Well, is bot v. bot an improvement? Video games for adults? bill w I would think so. Cheaper than humans, particularly if we consider supplying them and all the overhead, such as medical and so forth. Having armies of robots guarding borders rather than human troops is a big advantage. Now if we can prevent them from invading? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 30 23:36:59 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 15:36:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] china deploys kill bots In-Reply-To: <001a01d7fdbe$47304bc0$d590e340$@rainier66.com> References: <001a01d7fdbe$47304bc0$d590e340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 12:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Now we wait to see if India has those too. Sooner or later, we will > likely see bot vs bot battles. > I was approached by certain members of the Indian government in late 2019/early 2020 to develop countermeasures for certain anticipated Chinese military developments. (They came to me because of prior work I've done: this was not directly related to my rocket work, and the contract would not have been done under CubeCab.) Then COVID hit, and they were unable to get funding or time for almost anything else. My team saw it coming, and urged them to sign the contract while they were still able to, but they instead sat around until it was too late. Note that they are still, today, unable to proceed with development - because certain folks took the proposal we developed and handed it to Indian firms, who said they could make it (for much less and/or with kickbacks) but won't be able to deliver (because the proposal wasn't a complete blueprint, even if it might look like one to the ill-informed). I'm sure they'll figure out how to actually make bots without their internal corruption completely preventing success, some day. If nothing else they could just buy them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 31 00:56:01 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 16:56:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] china deploys kill bots In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d7fdbe$47304bc0$d590e340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006801d7fde1$2eb546e0$8c1fd4a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] china deploys kill bots On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 12:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Now we wait to see if India has those too. Sooner or later, we will likely see bot vs bot battles. >?I was approached by certain members of the Indian government in late 2019/early 2020 to develop countermeasures for certain anticipated Chinese military developments. (They came to me because of prior work I've done: this was not directly related to my rocket work, and the contract would not have been done under CubeCab.) Then COVID hit, and they were unable to get funding or time for almost anything else. My team saw it coming, and urged them to sign the contract while they were still able to, but they instead sat around until it was too late. >?Note that they are still, today, unable to proceed with development - because certain folks took the proposal we developed and handed it to Indian firms, who said they could make it (for much less and/or with kickbacks) but won't be able to deliver (because the proposal wasn't a complete blueprint, even if it might look like one to the ill-informed). >?I'm sure they'll figure out how to actually make bots without their internal corruption completely preventing success, some day. If nothing else they could just buy them? Adrian you are better off without that contract. They want to buy your intellectual property cheap. They want to have you develop a workable control system, then it would be adios Adrian, nice doing business with you, services no longer required, the minute they figure out how to do your control systems themselves. I can guarantee you this: India is trying to buy American control systems expertise. The mechanical stuff they can do themselves. They will attempt any and every shortcut available, as will China, as will the USA if we can. Not that it has ever happened you understand? but the Nazis were ahead of everybody in the world in control systems technology in the 1940s. That?s why so much of classical control system technology is based on German-invented mathematical concepts such as eigenvectors and eigenvalues and eigen this and eigen that. India has military engineers. They will figure out how to make battle bots. They have an immediate use for them. The USA doesn?t. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 01:32:15 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:32:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:19 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Except that a number of people really do believe that letting COVID run > unchecked would be better for everyone - or at least, they say they do. > > That you label this as heinous behavior answers the question in your case: > you clearly do not believe that letting COVID run unchecked would be > better. A lot of people (perhaps most?) believe that letting it run > unchecked - again, as a number of other people advocate - would indeed be > heinous. > ### Unchecked, as in really not doing anything at all to deal with it? These are few and far between. Almost everybody will agree with some or other interventions, all the way from masked lockdown forever with monthly booster shots administered by armed goons to only accepting voluntary isolation of the most vulnerable people and no compulsory anything. I am in that latter camp (i.e. do everything that makes sense as long as you don't initiate force against others) and from reading Spike's posts it's clear he gravitates there too, so why ask him about "unchecked" Covid? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 01:47:40 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 17:47:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 5:34 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:19 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Except that a number of people really do believe that letting COVID run >> unchecked would be better for everyone - or at least, they say they do. >> >> That you label this as heinous behavior answers the question in your >> case: you clearly do not believe that letting COVID run unchecked would be >> better. A lot of people (perhaps most?) believe that letting it run >> unchecked - again, as a number of other people advocate - would indeed be >> heinous. >> > > ### Unchecked, as in really not doing anything at all to deal with it? > These are few and far between. > No, there are quite a few in the "really not doing anything at all" camp. > Almost everybody will agree with some or other interventions, all the way > from masked lockdown forever with monthly booster shots administered by > armed goons to only accepting voluntary isolation of the most vulnerable > people and no compulsory anything. > That latter description isn't an "intervention" at all, if the only actions are voluntary on the part of those performing the actions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 01:54:02 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 19:54:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Maybe it's time, esp. when we have fairly new members, to have a good old-fashioned discussion of libertarianism. I have some doubts and so does John, as he wrote the other day. There has to be a line between individual rights and community rights. No entity can own you, but if you don't give up some rights or some part of them to go along with a serious community interest that requires it, then you cannot be said to be a citizen of that society. You would be ousted from many tribes over history. Or worse. What would have happened to you in WWII in London if you insisted on leaving your house lights on? Get shot as a traitor might be likely. bill w On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 7:34 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:19 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> Except that a number of people really do believe that letting COVID run >> unchecked would be better for everyone - or at least, they say they do. >> >> That you label this as heinous behavior answers the question in your >> case: you clearly do not believe that letting COVID run unchecked would be >> better. A lot of people (perhaps most?) believe that letting it run >> unchecked - again, as a number of other people advocate - would indeed be >> heinous. >> > > ### Unchecked, as in really not doing anything at all to deal with it? > These are few and far between. Almost everybody will agree with some or > other interventions, all the way from masked lockdown forever with monthly > booster shots administered by armed goons to only accepting voluntary > isolation of the most vulnerable people and no compulsory anything. I am in > that latter camp (i.e. do everything that makes sense as long as you don't > initiate force against others) and from reading Spike's posts it's clear he > gravitates there too, so why ask him about "unchecked" Covid? > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 01:55:20 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:55:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:33 PM Will Steinberg wrote: > Just the language used, day of wrath, Latin, etc. Comes off like the kind > of shit I see on 4chan. > ### Never been there but might have to visit, maybe find congenial souls :) BTW, Mozart's Requiem which features these verses is one of the most moving and dramatic pieces of music ever, especially when you follow the lyrics. Truly soul-rending even for a soulless computational device like me. ----------------------- > Also the death penalty is wrong and the state should not be given the > authority to murder unless it is in active self defense > ### I think that the death penalty does have a mild deterrent effect on prospective murderers, and it is a way to permanently remove them from circulation, so it does have the potential to produce a net reduction in murders. I think that the gross reduction in murders per 100 executed true murderers very likely and significantly exceeds 2% (but I don't know by how much), so accepting a 2% false positive rate should preserve a net beneficial effect on innocent lives saved from murder, and therefore the death penalty for murder a reasonable and commendable action, under the assumptions stated. Of course, I discount the value of a true murderer's life to zero. I agree with you that a state should not be able to kill people except in war, which in my current minarchist mindset is the state's only reasonable use case. I'd rather use a private judge and executioner to exact my posthumous revenge on the one that kills me. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 01:59:30 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:59:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:47 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I support the death penalty only in extreme cases, where the guilt is 100% > certain and the crime was truly beastly. > ### Yes, this is my position, too, except I would be satisfied with 98% certainty, or less depending on the net effects on murder rate and yes, I know that the false positive rate for death penalty in the US is likely higher than that. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 02:02:02 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 21:02:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 8:49 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 5:34 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:19 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Except that a number of people really do believe that letting COVID run >>> unchecked would be better for everyone - or at least, they say they do. >>> >>> That you label this as heinous behavior answers the question in your >>> case: you clearly do not believe that letting COVID run unchecked would be >>> better. A lot of people (perhaps most?) believe that letting it run >>> unchecked - again, as a number of other people advocate - would indeed be >>> heinous. >>> >> >> ### Unchecked, as in really not doing anything at all to deal with it? >> These are few and far between. >> > > No, there are quite a few in the "really not doing anything at all" camp. > ### Quotes? --------------------- > > >> Almost everybody will agree with some or other interventions, all the way >> from masked lockdown forever with monthly booster shots administered by >> armed goons to only accepting voluntary isolation of the most vulnerable >> people and no compulsory anything. >> > > That latter description isn't an "intervention" at all, if the only > actions are voluntary on the part of those performing the actions. > ### Well, I guess I am an anti-interventionist then but still not an unchecked-er. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 02:06:34 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 21:06:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 8:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Maybe it's time, esp. when we have fairly new members, to have a good > old-fashioned discussion of libertarianism. I have some doubts and so > does John, as he wrote the other day. There has to be a line between > individual rights and community rights. No entity can own you, but if you > don't give up some rights or some part of them to go along with a serious > community interest that requires it, then you cannot be said to be a > citizen of that society. You would be ousted from many tribes over > history. Or worse. What would have happened to you in WWII in London if > you insisted on leaving your house lights on? Get shot as a traitor might > be likely. > ### Sure, there are legitimate actions that are coordinated at community level and may be compulsory for all community members, such as blackouts during the Blitz. I just don't see much of anything analogous in the pandemic situation. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 02:12:02 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:12:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: BTW, Mozart's Requiem which features these verses is one of the most moving and dramatic pieces of music ever, especially when you follow the lyrics. Truly soul-rending even for a soulless computational device like me. We were near Nice when I saw ads for the Requiem, and went to the concert. I stood the whole time and could not say a word to save my life. I cannot listen to it without powerful emotions. Not for easy listening. bill w On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 8:01 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:33 PM Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> Just the language used, day of wrath, Latin, etc. Comes off like the >> kind of shit I see on 4chan. >> > > ### Never been there but might have to visit, maybe find congenial souls :) > > BTW, Mozart's Requiem which features these verses is one of the most > moving and dramatic pieces of music ever, especially when you follow the > lyrics. Truly soul-rending even for a soulless computational device like me. > ----------------------- > > >> Also the death penalty is wrong and the state should not be given the >> authority to murder unless it is in active self defense >> > > ### I think that the death penalty does have a mild deterrent effect on > prospective murderers, and it is a way to permanently remove them from > circulation, so it does have the potential to produce a net reduction in > murders. I think that the gross reduction in murders per 100 executed true > murderers very likely and significantly exceeds 2% (but I don't know by how > much), so accepting a 2% false positive rate should preserve a net > beneficial effect on innocent lives saved from murder, and therefore the > death penalty for murder a reasonable and commendable action, under the > assumptions stated. Of course, I discount the value of a true murderer's > life to zero. > > I agree with you that a state should not be able to kill people except in > war, which in my current minarchist mindset is the state's only reasonable > use case. I'd rather use a private judge and executioner to exact my > posthumous revenge on the one that kills me. > > Rafal > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 02:19:36 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:19:36 -0600 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 8:16 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 8:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Maybe it's time, esp. when we have fairly new members, to have a good >> old-fashioned discussion of libertarianism. I have some doubts and so >> does John, as he wrote the other day. There has to be a line between >> individual rights and community rights. No entity can own you, but if you >> don't give up some rights or some part of them to go along with a serious >> community interest that requires it, then you cannot be said to be a >> citizen of that society. You would be ousted from many tribes over >> history. Or worse. What would have happened to you in WWII in London if >> you insisted on leaving your house lights on? Get shot as a traitor might >> be likely. >> > > ### Sure, there are legitimate actions that are coordinated at community > level and may be compulsory for all community members, such as blackouts > during the Blitz. I just don't see much of anything analogous in the > pandemic situation. > > Rafal But we need guidelines, not just a decision in one particular > case. In other words, we need theory. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 02:29:46 2021 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 21:29:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid or cold? In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7f883$a6b987e0$f42c97a0$@rainier66.com> <002501d7f8d6$8941a730$9bc4f590$@rainier66.com> <003901d7f8d9$69d5cd10$3d816730$@rainier66.com> <006401d7f8fc$fe82a1e0$fb87e5a0$@rainier66.com> <00b001d7f902$0d263ea0$2772bbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 9:19 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 8:16 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 8:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Maybe it's time, esp. when we have fairly new members, to have a good >>> old-fashioned discussion of libertarianism. I have some doubts and so >>> does John, as he wrote the other day. There has to be a line between >>> individual rights and community rights. No entity can own you, but if you >>> don't give up some rights or some part of them to go along with a serious >>> community interest that requires it, then you cannot be said to be a >>> citizen of that society. You would be ousted from many tribes over >>> history. Or worse. What would have happened to you in WWII in London if >>> you insisted on leaving your house lights on? Get shot as a traitor might >>> be likely. >>> >> >> ### Sure, there are legitimate actions that are coordinated at community >> level and may be compulsory for all community members, such as blackouts >> during the Blitz. I just don't see much of anything analogous in the >> pandemic situation. >> >> Rafal But we need guidelines, not just a decision in one particular >> case. In other words, we need theory. bill w >> > ### You just gave me an invitation to write no less than 100,000 words :) I think I have made some minor progress in systematizing my thoughts on political theory in the past couple of years. I don't have the time for a full exposition though. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 02:45:38 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 21:45:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 9:00 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:33 PM Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> Just the language used, day of wrath, Latin, etc. Comes off like the >> kind of shit I see on 4chan. >> > > ### Never been there but might have to visit, maybe find congenial souls :) > Oh god, I've created a new anon. I think /pol/ might be too toxic for even you lol > BTW, Mozart's Requiem which features these verses is one of the most > moving and dramatic pieces of music ever, especially when you follow the > lyrics. Truly soul-rending even for a soulless computational device like me. > Mozart is based, no disagreements there Also the death penalty is wrong and the state should not be given the >> authority to murder unless it is in active self defense >> > > ### I think that the death penalty does have a mild deterrent effect on > prospective murderers, and it is a way to permanently remove them from > circulation, so it does have the potential to produce a net reduction in > murders. I think that the gross reduction in murders per 100 executed true > murderers very likely and significantly exceeds 2% (but I don't know by how > much), so accepting a 2% false positive rate should preserve a net > beneficial effect on innocent lives saved from murder, and therefore the > death penalty for murder a reasonable and commendable action, under the > assumptions stated. Of course, I discount the value of a true murderer's > life to zero. > I don't really think anyone who commits a capital-level offense is thinking much about the death penalty. And I doubt it's more of a deterrent than jail. You really think someone is like "I wanna go kill a bunch of people, but I don't want to die! Now, life in prison, that's not so bad..."? > I agree with you that a state should not be able to kill people except in > war, which in my current minarchist mindset is the state's only reasonable > use case. I'd rather use a private judge and executioner to exact my > posthumous revenge on the one that kills me. > Jesus christ lol, ancap much? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 04:05:08 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:05:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 6:21 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > BTW, Mozart's Requiem which features these verses is one of the most > moving and dramatic pieces of music ever, especially when you follow the > lyrics. Truly soul-rending even for a soulless computational device like me. > > We were near Nice when I saw ads for the Requiem, and went to the > concert. I stood the whole time and could not say a word to save my life. > I cannot listen to it without powerful emotions. Not for easy listening. > bill w > The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such things, the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Dec 30 23:11:36 2021 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 23:11:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2acc9555-9c7a-7f96-53a8-fda4149986d2@zaiboc.net> On 30/12/2021 19:04, billw wrote: > Somebody stole your girlfriend.? Are you going to spend the rest of > your life trying to get even with that person? I'm no PC snowflake, but I do think that this is an unfortunate example. It implies that girls are property that can be owned and therefore stolen. I've lost girls to others before, but I never considered them 'stolen', because they were never my property. Rather than resenting the 'thief', it's much better to consider why the relationship ended, learn from that, and get on with your life, hopefully wiser. Ben From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 14:33:53 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 08:33:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: <2acc9555-9c7a-7f96-53a8-fda4149986d2@zaiboc.net> References: <2acc9555-9c7a-7f96-53a8-fda4149986d2@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Well, Ben, you are a grown man. That is the way many young people think - they own their girlfriends. It's unfortunate, sure. But teens kill one another these days over much less than stealing girlfriends. "Dissing' is a main cause of death. bill w On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:55 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 30/12/2021 19:04, billw wrote: > > Somebody stole your girlfriend. Are you going to spend the rest of > > your life trying to get even with that person? > > I'm no PC snowflake, but I do think that this is an unfortunate example. > It implies that girls are property that can be owned and therefore > stolen. I've lost girls to others before, but I never considered them > 'stolen', because they were never my property. Rather than resenting the > 'thief', it's much better to consider why the relationship ended, learn > from that, and get on with your life, hopefully wiser. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 15:30:09 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 09:30:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: <92998AF4-C86E-413B-AE2F-228CB2DF93BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: > William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> I taught courses in Learning for over 30 years and I can testify that >> punishment, of the positive kind ( as opposed to the negative kind, where a >> response results in the withdrawal of something good, like taking a toy >> away) has so many unfortunate side effects, often worse than the behavior >> being punished, that I would never recommend it in child raising unless the >> behavior being punished is actually dangerous to the person or to others. >> > Let met start off with these: > Side effects of positive punishment: 1 - creates fear of the punisher and possibly hate - may generalize to other authority figures 2 - does not generalize well to similar behaviors 3 - creates avoidance of punishers 4 - creates hostility towards punisher and maybe society 5 - does nothing to encourage proper behavior 6 - creates learning of how to avoid punishment - i.e. get away with bad behavior 7 - encourages acting out of anger and frustration by punisher -poor model 8 - is associated with poorer cognitive and intellectual development 9 - may result in excessive anxiety, guilt, and self-punishment. -low self worth 10 - encourages excessive punishment when mild punishment does not work 11 - can create aggression and antisocial behavior You can nitpick these - some or most do not necessarily happen every time, and some only when the person being punished reacts rather strongly. But all of them are common. > Both prison and capital punishment are examples of negative punishment. In > the first, one is taking away the subject's freedom and in the second, one > is taking away the subject's life. I am not sure how either of these > options is better than the positive punishment of flogging them in the > public square. > You are correct - negative punishment can occur with positive. However, in the usual case, the toy taken away can be regained by showing positive behaviors, like chores, which are then reinforced. So you have punishment of the bad behavior and positive reinforcement of the good behavior, something that does not occur in most positive punishment situations. A prisoner can lessen his term with good behavior, but not by a lot. > Positive punishment of undesired behavior is an evolved trait that would > not have evolved unless it was successful. For reference look at evolved > behavior of all social primates and pack animals. When one wolf wants stop > another wolf from stealing its food, it warns and ultimately bites the > offending wolf. Chimpanzees use pain and violence to regulate one another's > behavior. Even game theoretic computer simulations show that punishing > defectors in tit-for-tat is a Nash equilibrium and an evolutionarily stable > strategy > As we know, humans have an excess of anger. When thwarted we get angry and strike out. That seems to be a natural reaction. I never said that positive punishment did not work. Clearly it can though if it continues for something it is clearly not working. (though people who hit and don't get what they want tend to hit harder. My point is that it can be costly in terms of the undesireable side effects. > Until constantly forgiving someone for the same offenses becomes a > pattern, at which point forgiving becomes enabling. > Just as positive punishment can get worse every time, so can negative. What is taken away gets more and more desireable - at first, one hour of TV is lost; next three hours; next all night. In addition, I might require hard work to regain the desireables. If this is not working perhaps some consultation with professional is called for. I would even justify threats of physical punishment. > >> prison riots that more than occasionally kill >> > > Again, *all these punishment*s you rail against are negative punishments > which are supposed to be the good kind, while spanking a child or tasering > an adult is positive punishment and is considered bad. Not all by any > means. And it's not the negative aspect that creates the problems. > > >> >> > Are you sure this is not a case of psychologists thinking with their > hearts instead of their brains? How did they conduct these studies? It > seems that a good study would be hard to set up since you can't compare > outcomes in identical children using controls. > > Most studies, if not all, of positive punishment cannot be ethically > done. But those side effects can be verified, often by scars and bruises > and broken bones in abused wives and children. Do you doubt that? > >> >> This is a HUGE problem. These poor kids (race seems far less relevant > than socioeconomic status - true) respect and fear one another far more > than they do their teachers or school administration because of their gang > mentality of "snitches get stitches". Numerous TikTok challenges have them > vandalizing school property, stealing from, and hitting their teachers. The > prohibition against positive punishment for school children seems like it > will be the death of public education, at least in the United States. > Coddling of delinquents has gotten so bad that it seems like almost like a > communist plot to destabilize western liberal democracies from within. The > educational psychology theory that teachers learn in school seems > completely ineffectual in the real world of schools in poor neighborhoods. > All it seems to do is prime these kids for prison by teaching them that > authority figures are a joke who have no teeth. They can get away with > anything they want until they cross a cop or another thug that shoot them, > beat them, or throw them in jail. Don't get me started on the education > establishment! > I am not in favor of coddling anyone. You can make punishments severe > without hitting people. Hitting people to me is a sign that you can't, or > don't want to try anything else. I am a liberal but not a bleeding heart > one. I have no idea what to do with poor, misbehaving kids in schools. > Wish I did. I just don't equate getting tough with lots of positive > punishment. I would justify it only as a last resort. > It might make YOU feel better, but what about the good of society? What if >> that reckless driver you forgave ends up killing a whole family because you >> let him off the hook? >> > I forgive the reckless driver so as to cool my temper and not get reckless myself. Doesn't mean that I won't call him in to 911 - I have done so, esp. if their driving is erratic, possibly meaning drunk. One who just cuts me off gets hand signals and honking. Try Googling 'meta-analyses of positive punishement'. That's what I would do. bill w > >> > >> >> This really requires a much longer post with added references to studies, >> but maybe it's a start. bill w >> > > Stuart LaForge > > > >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 15:34:37 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 09:34:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Extropolis] Luciferian Murder? In-Reply-To: References: <92998AF4-C86E-413B-AE2F-228CB2DF93BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: William Flynn Wallace Date: Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [Extropolis] Luciferian Murder? To: , ExI chat list < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> I taught courses in Learning for over 30 years and I can testify that >> punishment, of the positive kind ( as opposed to the negative kind, where a >> response results in the withdrawal of something good, like taking a toy >> away) has so many unfortunate side effects, often worse than the behavior >> being punished, that I would never recommend it in child raising unless the >> behavior being punished is actually dangerous to the person or to others. >> > Let met start off with these: > Side effects of positive punishment: 1 - creates fear of the punisher and possibly hate - may generalize to other authority figures 2 - does not generalize well to similar behaviors 3 - creates avoidance of punishers 4 - creates hostility towards punisher and maybe society 5 - does nothing to encourage proper behavior 6 - creates learning of how to avoid punishment - i.e. get away with bad behavior 7 - encourages acting out of anger and frustration by punisher -poor model 8 - is associated with poorer cognitive and intellectual development 9 - may result in excessive anxiety, guilt, and self-punishment. -low self worth 10 - encourages excessive punishment when mild punishment does not work 11 - can create aggression and antisocial behavior You can nitpick these - some or most do not necessarily happen every time, and some only when the person being punished reacts rather strongly. But all of them are common. > Both prison and capital punishment are examples of negative punishment. In > the first, one is taking away the subject's freedom and in the second, one > is taking away the subject's life. I am not sure how either of these > options is better than the positive punishment of flogging them in the > public square. > You are correct - negative punishment can occur with positive. However, in the usual case, the toy taken away can be regained by showing positive behaviors, like chores, which are then reinforced. So you have punishment of the bad behavior and positive reinforcement of the good behavior, something that does not occur in most positive punishment situations. A prisoner can lessen his term with good behavior, but not by a lot. > Positive punishment of undesired behavior is an evolved trait that would > not have evolved unless it was successful. For reference look at evolved > behavior of all social primates and pack animals. When one wolf wants stop > another wolf from stealing its food, it warns and ultimately bites the > offending wolf. Chimpanzees use pain and violence to regulate one another's > behavior. Even game theoretic computer simulations show that punishing > defectors in tit-for-tat is a Nash equilibrium and an evolutionarily stable > strategy > As we know, humans have an excess of anger. When thwarted we get angry and strike out. That seems to be a natural reaction. I never said that positive punishment did not work. Clearly it can though if it continues for something it is clearly not working. (though people who hit and don't get what they want tend to hit harder. My point is that it can be costly in terms of the undesireable side effects. > Until constantly forgiving someone for the same offenses becomes a > pattern, at which point forgiving becomes enabling. > Just as positive punishment can get worse every time, so can negative. What is taken away gets more and more desireable - at first, one hour of TV is lost; next three hours; next all night. In addition, I might require hard work to regain the desireables. If this is not working perhaps some consultation with professional is called for. I would even justify threats of physical punishment. > >> prison riots that more than occasionally kill >> > > Again, *all these punishment*s you rail against are negative punishments > which are supposed to be the good kind, while spanking a child or tasering > an adult is positive punishment and is considered bad. Not all by any > means. And it's not the negative aspect that creates the problems. > > >> >> > Are you sure this is not a case of psychologists thinking with their > hearts instead of their brains? How did they conduct these studies? It > seems that a good study would be hard to set up since you can't compare > outcomes in identical children using controls. > > Most studies, if not all, of positive punishment cannot be ethically > done. But those side effects can be verified, often by scars and bruises > and broken bones in abused wives and children. Do you doubt that? > >> >> This is a HUGE problem. These poor kids (race seems far less relevant > than socioeconomic status - true) respect and fear one another far more > than they do their teachers or school administration because of their gang > mentality of "snitches get stitches". Numerous TikTok challenges have them > vandalizing school property, stealing from, and hitting their teachers. The > prohibition against positive punishment for school children seems like it > will be the death of public education, at least in the United States. > Coddling of delinquents has gotten so bad that it seems like almost like a > communist plot to destabilize western liberal democracies from within. The > educational psychology theory that teachers learn in school seems > completely ineffectual in the real world of schools in poor neighborhoods. > All it seems to do is prime these kids for prison by teaching them that > authority figures are a joke who have no teeth. They can get away with > anything they want until they cross a cop or another thug that shoot them, > beat them, or throw them in jail. Don't get me started on the education > establishment! > I am not in favor of coddling anyone. You can make punishments severe > without hitting people. Hitting people to me is a sign that you can't, or > don't want to try anything else. I am a liberal but not a bleeding heart > one. I have no idea what to do with poor, misbehaving kids in schools. > Wish I did. I just don't equate getting tough with lots of positive > punishment. I would justify it only as a last resort. > It might make YOU feel better, but what about the good of society? What if >> that reckless driver you forgave ends up killing a whole family because you >> let him off the hook? >> > I forgive the reckless driver so as to cool my temper and not get reckless myself. Doesn't mean that I won't call him in to 911 - I have done so, esp. if their driving is erratic, possibly meaning drunk. One who just cuts me off gets hand signals and honking. Try Googling 'meta-analyses of positive punishement'. That's what I would do. bill w > >> > >> >> This really requires a much longer post with added references to studies, >> but maybe it's a start. bill w >> > > Stuart LaForge > > > >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 16:36:18 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 10:36:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such things, the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music - Adrian Maybe you didn't realize that it was in Latin? ?????? bill w On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 10:07 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 6:21 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> BTW, Mozart's Requiem which features these verses is one of the most >> moving and dramatic pieces of music ever, especially when you follow the >> lyrics. Truly soul-rending even for a soulless computational device like me. >> >> We were near Nice when I saw ads for the Requiem, and went to the >> concert. I stood the whole time and could not say a word to save my life. >> I cannot listen to it without powerful emotions. Not for easy listening. >> bill w >> > > The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such things, > the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an > unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 16:52:29 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 08:52:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 8:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such things, > the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an > unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music - Adrian > > Maybe you didn't realize that it was in Latin? ?????? bill w > Latin has words that are distinct from one another, and which are pronounced, in contrast to the sound I heard. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 17:07:30 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 11:07:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I quit paying attention to the words in songs long ago. Very few singers, Billy Joel is one, articulate enough for me to understand. It's my deafness. Pop music seems to be mostly about the words. Tuneful songs seem to have died somewhere in the 60s - for me. Practically no songs are worth listening to just for the music. Of course the Requiem is one of them. bill w On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 8:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such things, >> the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an >> unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music - Adrian >> >> Maybe you didn't realize that it was in Latin? ?????? bill w >> > > Latin has words that are distinct from one another, and which are > pronounced, in contrast to the sound I heard. > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 17:23:51 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 09:23:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am aware of a number of singers who are articulate when singing. Classical music with lyrics tends not to be performed by them. On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 9:09 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I quit paying attention to the words in songs long ago. Very few singers, > Billy Joel is one, articulate enough for me to understand. It's my > deafness. Pop music seems to be mostly about the words. Tuneful songs > seem to have died somewhere in the 60s - for me. Practically no songs are > worth listening to just for the music. Of course the Requiem is one of > them. bill w > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 8:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such >>> things, the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an >>> unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music - Adrian >>> >>> Maybe you didn't realize that it was in Latin? ?????? bill w >>> >> >> Latin has words that are distinct from one another, and which are >> pronounced, in contrast to the sound I heard. >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 17:36:58 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 11:36:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: After the 70s, which had popular music I liked to dance to - ZZ Top, Allman Bros. etc. - I gave up on popular music. The words seem to be for teenagers in love and the music was not interesting. In classical I don't even try to understand the words. I have a general idea of the content, sad, happy, etc. and just listen to how the music reflects it. I also can't stand women singers who can't seem to find the notes and screech and scream more than sing. I turn off my aids in Walmart and elsewhere. I have not heard the National Anthem sung properly in a very long time. Robert Merrill was the best. bill w On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 11:25 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am aware of a number of singers who are articulate when singing. > > Classical music with lyrics tends not to be performed by them. > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 9:09 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I quit paying attention to the words in songs long ago. Very few >> singers, Billy Joel is one, articulate enough for me to understand. It's >> my deafness. Pop music seems to be mostly about the words. Tuneful songs >> seem to have died somewhere in the 60s - for me. Practically no songs are >> worth listening to just for the music. Of course the Requiem is one of >> them. bill w >> >> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 8:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such >>>> things, the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an >>>> unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music - Adrian >>>> >>>> Maybe you didn't realize that it was in Latin? ?????? bill w >>>> >>> >>> Latin has words that are distinct from one another, and which are >>> pronounced, in contrast to the sound I heard. >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 17:43:19 2021 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 09:43:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Music such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA might be of interest to you. On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 9:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > After the 70s, which had popular music I liked to dance to - ZZ Top, > Allman Bros. etc. - I gave up on popular music. The words seem to be for > teenagers in love and the music was not interesting. In classical I don't > even try to understand the words. I have a general idea of the content, > sad, happy, etc. and just listen to how the music reflects it. I also > can't stand women singers who can't seem to find the notes and screech and > scream more than sing. I turn off my aids in Walmart and elsewhere. I have > not heard the National Anthem sung properly in a very long time. Robert > Merrill was the best. bill w > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 11:25 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I am aware of a number of singers who are articulate when singing. >> >> Classical music with lyrics tends not to be performed by them. >> >> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 9:09 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I quit paying attention to the words in songs long ago. Very few >>> singers, Billy Joel is one, articulate enough for me to understand. It's >>> my deafness. Pop music seems to be mostly about the words. Tuneful songs >>> seem to have died somewhere in the 60s - for me. Practically no songs are >>> worth listening to just for the music. Of course the Requiem is one of >>> them. bill w >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 8:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such >>>>> things, the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an >>>>> unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music - Adrian >>>>> >>>>> Maybe you didn't realize that it was in Latin? ?????? bill w >>>>> >>>> >>>> Latin has words that are distinct from one another, and which are >>>> pronounced, in contrast to the sound I heard. >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 17:49:49 2021 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 17:49:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] COVID unexpected benefit Message-ID: Pandemic-related decline in injuries related to women wearing high-heeled shoes: Analysis of U.S. data for 2016-2020 In 2020 there were an estimated 6,290 high-heel related emergency department visits involving women ages 15-69, down from 16,000 per year in 2016-2019. The 2020 decline began after the start of the COVID-19 shutdowns on March 15. ----------------- BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 17:52:11 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 11:52:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I understood about one word out of 5 if that. It doesn't have to be music: any background noise drives my brain nuts. A loud party? I won't be able to understand you from two feet away. Hearing aids promise to be able to deal with background noise, but they can't. Lots of people waste a lot of money on expensive aids which don't deliver the goods. I have tried them. bill w On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 11:45 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Music such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA might be of > interest to you. > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 9:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> After the 70s, which had popular music I liked to dance to - ZZ Top, >> Allman Bros. etc. - I gave up on popular music. The words seem to be for >> teenagers in love and the music was not interesting. In classical I don't >> even try to understand the words. I have a general idea of the content, >> sad, happy, etc. and just listen to how the music reflects it. I also >> can't stand women singers who can't seem to find the notes and screech and >> scream more than sing. I turn off my aids in Walmart and elsewhere. I have >> not heard the National Anthem sung properly in a very long time. Robert >> Merrill was the best. bill w >> >> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 11:25 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I am aware of a number of singers who are articulate when singing. >>> >>> Classical music with lyrics tends not to be performed by them. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 9:09 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I quit paying attention to the words in songs long ago. Very few >>>> singers, Billy Joel is one, articulate enough for me to understand. It's >>>> my deafness. Pop music seems to be mostly about the words. Tuneful songs >>>> seem to have died somewhere in the 60s - for me. Practically no songs are >>>> worth listening to just for the music. Of course the Requiem is one of >>>> them. bill w >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 8:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such >>>>>> things, the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an >>>>>> unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music - Adrian >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe you didn't realize that it was in Latin? ?????? bill w >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Latin has words that are distinct from one another, and which are >>>>> pronounced, in contrast to the sound I heard. >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri Dec 31 18:06:06 2021 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 13:06:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, December 31, 2021 12:52, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Hearing aids promise to be > able to deal with background noise, but they can't. Lots of people waste a > lot of money on expensive aids which don't deliver the goods. I have > tried > them. My father and brothers said the same thing. Dad said he could hear the newspaper pages turning, but not what people said. My brother complained that he was not interested in hearing the silverware being put away, and he still couldn't hear conversation. I've known *two* people who were pleased with their hearing aids. One was born deaf and is *thrilled* to hear anything at all, but he really can't understand what people say. The other was a music teacher and director, and he seemed quite happy, and encouraged me to get hearing aids. Since he was the first person I'd talked with who was enthusiastic, I didn't run out and spend the money. One more fellow I know with hearing aids... he's going every week or so for adjustments. His wife says they don't work right. ?? ;) Regards, MB From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 31 19:11:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 11:11:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] no data today In-Reply-To: <006901d7fdb3$56b1dfb0$04159f10$@rainier66.com> References: <004701d7fdb0$0de0d9b0$29a28d10$@rainier66.com> <006901d7fdb3$56b1dfb0$04159f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008901d7fe7a$2b302640$819072c0$@rainier66.com> >>?Is that a lack of data, or "no" data as in the data is zero? >?I don?t think they have updated it yet Adrian. The way the NYT has been reporting Florida covid fatality data, it is zero on every day except Mondays and Thursdays?spike Owwww, damn: Association Between Immune Dysfunction and COVID-19 Breakthrough Infection After SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination in the US | HIV | JAMA Internal Medicine | JAMA Network On a brighter note (my favorite kind of note) the NYT published the Florida covid fatality data yesterday and the news is good so far (he said cautiously.) Their 7-day rolling average is holding at about 20 per day, which is below one fatality per day per million proles, which is well below the national average. The USA national average is about triple Florida?s rate even though that state had a huge new case surge starting about two weeks ago. My optimism is cautious because it might be that omicron does eventually slay, but it takes longer. We have been disappointed several times before. I don?t think that?s it, because we are hearing a drumbeat of info coming out of Florida saying the monoclonal antibody therapy works well against omicron, which is the dominant strain there. Furthermore, the South Africa data suggests omicron doesn?t slay, and does result in partial immunity or increased resistance to delta. In the meantime, we will get no additional data until about Tuesday probably, so? good luck to us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 31 19:33:21 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 11:33:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] olive video Message-ID: <000b01d7fe7d$45d764b0$d1862e10$@rainier66.com> The song was such a gentle understatement for how Olive the ambiguous-gender reindeer treated Rudolph (Olive's pronoun is the gender-neutral "they" please.) Note the song: .Olive, the other reindeer use to laugh and call him names They never let poor Rudolph join in any reindeer games. Well, now we know, they was worse than that. In this video, them is abusing poor Rudolph: https://twitter.com/i/status/1475910304928251906 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 19:37:52 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 13:37:52 -0600 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's something strange about aids and high pitches. If you don't get the high pitches you get AM quality music and you cannot hear consonants - people are mumbling. But if you do, and are like me, you can't stand to put a ceramic plate down on a ceramic counter, or use silverware with ceramic bowls. I now use wood utensils and wooden bowls (which don't heat up like ceramic or glass in the microwave). I have no idea why any aid needs weekly adjustments. Maybe the person has my problems with painful noise and wants it fixed. ?? bill w On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 12:20 PM MB via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, December 31, 2021 12:52, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > Hearing aids promise to be > > able to deal with background noise, but they can't. Lots of people waste > a > > lot of money on expensive aids which don't deliver the goods. I have > > tried > > them. > > My father and brothers said the same thing. Dad said he could hear the > newspaper pages turning, but not what people said. My brother complained > that he was not interested in hearing the silverware being put away, and > he still couldn't hear conversation. > > I've known *two* people who were pleased with their hearing aids. One was > born deaf and is *thrilled* to hear anything at all, but he really can't > understand what people say. The other was a music teacher and director, > and he seemed quite happy, and encouraged me to get hearing aids. Since > he was the first person I'd talked with who was enthusiastic, I didn't run > out and spend the money. > > One more fellow I know with hearing aids... he's going every week or so > for adjustments. His wife says they don't work right. ?? ;) > > Regards, > MB > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 31 20:06:08 2021 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 12:06:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] quiet utensils, was: RE: pistols Message-ID: <002201d7fe81$d9e3f2f0$8dabd8d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pistols >?{Because of clattery noise?} ? I now use wood utensils and wooden bowls (which don't heat up like ceramic or glass in the microwave). ? bill w Billw, a good alternative is sturdy reusable plastic such as the kind sold as camping gear. It is a kind of flexible ABS/polystyrene, cool stuff: microwaveable and dishwasherable, practically indestructible, more forgiving than wood perhaps, low cost, delightfully tacky yet unrefined. You can get the plates, bowls, utensils, everything. I discovered on a camping trip the plastic damps out any vibration. I started using them because I rise early and silently devour my breakfast before my family is stirring. Well, almost silent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MuZRTYiddU Full disclosure, I own no stock in this company or any of the other camping-goods purveyors. Check it out: https://www.amazon.com/EVO-Sustainable-Goods-Bowl-Blue/dp/B01KZW9FOO/ref=asc_df_B01KZW9FOO/?tag=hyprod-20 &linkCode=df0&hvadid=216513835172&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3087742665307137992&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032144&hvtargid=pla-348639740060&psc=1 https://www.campingworld.com/camp-casual-12-piece-dish-set-82294.html Alternative: go down to Walmart and test it before you buy it. Now that our awareness has been aroused regarding background noises and hearing aids, what else can we think of? Keyboards? 60 Hz hum? Billw, what kinds of household products interfere with hearing aids and how shall we market silent alternatives and make a buttload of money? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 20:27:53 2021 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 15:27:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pistols In-Reply-To: References: <001801d7361b$b7f591a0$27e0b4e0$@rainier66.com> <004401d73660$ca8da600$5fa8f200$@rainier66.com> <003d01d73c3f$10e665e0$32b331a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Good cerebral rap music is the only genre that even comes closes to poetry with their lyrics, kmo. The good stuff is really good. Some of you might be surprised but it's not all gangster shit like you probably think (just assuming based on demographics here lol) On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 12:08 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I quit paying attention to the words in songs long ago. Very few singers, > Billy Joel is one, articulate enough for me to understand. It's my > deafness. Pop music seems to be mostly about the words. Tuneful songs > seem to have died somewhere in the 60s - for me. Practically no songs are > worth listening to just for the music. Of course the Requiem is one of > them. bill w > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 10:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 8:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> The impact is much reduced when, as I have often experienced such >>> things, the performance and acoustics conspire to make the lyrics an >>> unintelligible a capella that contrasts with the music - Adrian >>> >>> Maybe you didn't realize that it was in Latin? ?????? bill w >>> >> >> Latin has words that are distinct from one another, and which are >> pronounced, in contrast to the sound I heard. >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 22:41:19 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 16:41:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] gmo news Message-ID: https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2021/12/17/5-reasons-why-the-gmo-debate-is-over/ ? I get their newsletter. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 22:49:12 2021 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 16:49:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] punishent 2 Message-ID: This is just insane: Rikers Island in New York City has been gripped by its worst crisis since the crack epidemic of the early 1990s. More than 16 men have died in the jail system this year. Some detainees roam unsupervised; others go without food or basic health care. The failures are stark, given the cost: more than $400,000 per inmate annually, which is more than six times the average in the nation?s other biggest cities. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: