From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 00:02:10 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 11:02:10 +1100 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 10:51, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > *>>?*From his point of view, if the government says do something, you > damn well do it. He continues to be amazed by me and his own American-born > son who go off asking if the order is legal? > > > > >?If you disagree with what the Court says is legal, that?s just your bad > luck? Stathis > > > > > > Ja. For my neighbor and plenty of other Asian imports, the government is > all one big scary thing. There is no legislature, executive, judicial, no > federal, state, county, local authority, none of that. The government > never questions itself. Every level of government answers to the one above > it, there is nothing analogous to state law overruling federal law (as we > have in the USA.) > > > > Our system is complicated and hard to explain to one from a country where > there is a guy up top who commands guys below him who command on down, with > the hapless citizenry at the bottom of the power structure and no way to > escape or appeal. > > > > That being said, the same neighbor noted that I appear to be friends with > one of the local constables. Well, ja, I am: he?s a hell of a good guy, > and is our representative with the scout troop. The local police > department founded and sponsors our scout troop. So that guy comes by a > lot, to deliver or pick up applications or sometimes just to say hello if > he is in the hood. So I need to explain to my neighbor one can be friendly > with the constables and suspicious of the feds at the same time, no logical > contradiction at all. Two very different things are these. > > > > The federal cops, the FBI, was caught and convicted of falsifying > evidence. They never really did anything to the guy. Of course that is > going to arouse suspicion. Now we know the FBI falsifies evidence. The > locals do not. > It is possible for an official, legislator or judicial officer to be honest yet have values contrary to your own. For example, there are probably Taliban officials who are extremely fair in applying Sharia law, while there may be others who can be bribed or are just lazy and don?t really care. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 00:52:05 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 16:52:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] neuralink In-Reply-To: <001401d9051d$6d474cc0$47d5e640$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d90516$74b4b6c0$5e1e2440$@rainier66.com> <001401d9051d$6d474cc0$47d5e640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002201d9051f$22b124e0$68136ea0$@rainier66.com> Can you imagine how we would have thought of this had we seen it 20 years ago? The whole remove a piece of the skull business is just a bit off-putting, but in any case: https://twitter.com/i/status/1597998894327087104 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 00:56:11 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 16:56:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 10:51, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? The federal cops, the FBI, was caught and convicted of falsifying evidence. They never really did anything to the guy. Of course that is going to arouse suspicion. Now we know the FBI falsifies evidence. The locals do not. >?It is possible for an official, legislator or judicial officer to be honest yet have values contrary to your own. For example, there are probably Taliban officials who are extremely fair in applying Sharia law, while there may be others who can be bribed or are just lazy and don?t really care. -- Stathis Papaioannou I see, so falsifying evidence is? what Stathis? Kinda OK if it agrees with sharia law and the guy who falsified the evidence is? what please? Do explain why we should think there is any justification or any way we can consider it honest or ethical or legal or any other form of justification for the FBI to falsify evidence. The FBI falsified evidence. They caught the guy. Did almost nothing to him. Now? the FBI falsifies evidence. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 01:11:22 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 17:11:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <003201d9051f$b5cbd5e0$216381a0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <003201d9051f$b5cbd5e0$216381a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004201d90521$d44c7360$7ce55a20$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >?The FBI falsified evidence. They caught the guy. Did almost nothing to him. Now? the FBI falsifies evidence. spike I have never been so wrong in a prediction than I was when they convicted Kevin Clinesmith of the FBI. I figured they would give him ten at Rikers, then after 9 years 11 months of solitary, he would be so despondent over his eminent release that he would commit suicide while the guards were asleep and the cameras were mysteriously malfunctioning. My reasoning is that the FBI would need to fry him to a crispy crunch in order to maintain a shred of credibility. They did almost nothing to him. Well, so much for FBI credibility. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3670 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 01:14:38 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 17:14:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] neuralink In-Reply-To: <002201d9051f$22b124e0$68136ea0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d90516$74b4b6c0$5e1e2440$@rainier66.com> <001401d9051d$6d474cc0$47d5e640$@rainier66.com> <002201d9051f$22b124e0$68136ea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Why yes, I do remember working on stuff like this - peripheral nervous system, not central, but still - in 1995-96. On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 4:54 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Can you imagine how we would have thought of this had we seen it 20 years > ago? > > > > The whole remove a piece of the skull business is just a bit off-putting, > but in any case: > > > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1597998894327087104 > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 01:28:01 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 12:28:01 +1100 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 12:00, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review > > > > > > > > On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 10:51, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > The federal cops, the FBI, was caught and convicted of falsifying > evidence. They never really did anything to the guy. Of course that is > going to arouse suspicion. Now we know the FBI falsifies evidence. The > locals do not. > > >?It is possible for an official, legislator or judicial officer to be > honest yet have values contrary to your own. For example, there are > probably Taliban officials who are extremely fair in applying Sharia law, > while there may be others who can be bribed or are just lazy and don?t > really care. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > I see, so falsifying evidence is? what Stathis? Kinda OK if it agrees > with sharia law and the guy who falsified the evidence is? what please? Do > explain why we should think there is any justification or any way we can > consider it honest or ethical or legal or any other form of justification > for the FBI to falsify evidence. > > > > The FBI falsified evidence. They caught the guy. Did almost nothing to > him. Now? the FBI falsifies evidence. > There are two issues: officials being dishonest and breaking their own rules (eg. falsifying evidence) and the rules themselves being bad rules. The application of Sharia law may be fair and honest, but it still sucks. In your jurisdiction also there may be laws that are applied fairly and honestly, but you disagree with the laws. You can try to change them, but if you can?t you are stuck with them. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 01:58:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 17:58:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ? The FBI falsified evidence. They caught the guy. Did almost nothing to him. Now? the FBI falsifies evidence. >?There are two issues: officials being dishonest and breaking their own rules (eg. falsifying evidence) and the rules themselves being bad rules. The application of Sharia law may be fair and honest, but it still sucks. In your jurisdiction also there may be laws that are applied fairly and honestly, but you disagree with the laws. You can try to change them, but if you can?t you are stuck with them. -- Stathis Papaioannou Ja, no. This isn?t their rules. Falsifying evidence by authorities is completely wrong, never justifiable in any jurisdiction by any government authority ever. If a cop plants dope in the bad guy?s trunk in order to arrest that guy and question him for another crime, that is still falsifying evidence. If that cop is caught, the perp goes free on both the dope charges and whatever they wanted to question him for, and the cop goes to prison where he damn well belongs. Sharia law is irrelevant, the religion of any of the participants is completely irrelevant, there is no justification, not even partial. The police must be the good guys. If they do illegal things in order to catch the bad guy, they become the bad guys, and the original bad guy goes free. The police must play by the rules, with ?the rules? meaning the law. They must stay inside the law to enforce the law. That would be US law, not sharia. This is a good thing. Imagine a coupla fellers have a beef with each other, perhaps they both like the same girl. They fight, the one feller whoops the other, gets the girl. The loser goes to police academy, gets a badge, pulls over the victor, puts dope in his trunk, finds it, the winner gets 20 yrs in Alcatraz, the loser consoles the lonely bride of the prisoner and takes her away. See how this can go wrong? There must be a severe price for falsifying evidence. Otherwise the FBI cannot be trusted. The FBI falsified evidence. Caught, convicted. They did almost nothing to the perp. Now, the FBI cannot be trusted. There are no extenuating circumstances to consider, none. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 02:19:12 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 18:19:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The FBI falsified evidence. Caught, convicted. They did almost nothing > to the perp. Now, the FBI cannot be trusted. There are no extenuating > circumstances to consider, none. > If that were the case, one could point this out in court to shred the credibility of any evidence the FBI claims to have found. And yet, you know quite well that won't work. Which means they do still have some credibility, and are trusted to some extent. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 02:33:52 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 18:33:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:00 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: The FBI falsified evidence. Caught, convicted. They did almost nothing to the perp. Now, the FBI cannot be trusted. There are no extenuating circumstances to consider, none. >? If that were the case, one could point this out in court to shred the credibility of any evidence the FBI claims to have found? That is exactly right Adrian, which is why this case was so damaging to law and order in the USA. Now, even if the courts take the FBI?s word for it, we don?t. If the FBI was the only witnesses and I am in the jury box, I would request some kind of corroborating evidence to back up the FBI, for the FBI falsifies evidence. Caught, convicted, they did almost nothing. Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus. I predicted the FBI would need to fry one of their own bad apples, or give away their credibility. They chose the latter. Now, we shine a bright light on a lot of very suspicious things the FBI has been involved in since that time, and we are seeing a lot of suspicious stuff, at least one of those things right here in our own neighborhood Adrian. I can elaborate on that last phrase if you wish. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 02:38:13 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 13:38:13 +1100 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 13:00, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *?* > > The FBI falsified evidence. They caught the guy. Did almost nothing to > him. Now? the FBI falsifies evidence. > > >?There are two issues: officials being dishonest and breaking their own > rules (eg. falsifying evidence) and the rules themselves being bad rules. > The application of Sharia law may be fair and honest, but it still sucks. > In your jurisdiction also there may be laws that are applied fairly and > honestly, but you disagree with the laws. You can try to change them, but > if you can?t you are stuck with them. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Ja, no. This isn?t their rules. Falsifying evidence by authorities is > completely wrong, never justifiable in any jurisdiction by any government > authority ever. If a cop plants dope in the bad guy?s trunk in order to > arrest that guy and question him for another crime, that is still > falsifying evidence. If that cop is caught, the perp goes free on both the > dope charges and whatever they wanted to question him for, and the cop goes > to prison where he damn well belongs. Sharia law is irrelevant, the > religion of any of the participants is completely irrelevant, there is no > justification, not even partial. > > > > The police must be the good guys. If they do illegal things in order to > catch the bad guy, they become the bad guys, and the original bad guy goes > free. The police must play by the rules, with ?the rules? meaning the > law. They must stay inside the law to enforce the law. That would be US > law, not sharia. > > > > This is a good thing. Imagine a coupla fellers have a beef with each > other, perhaps they both like the same girl. They fight, the one feller > whoops the other, gets the girl. The loser goes to police academy, gets a > badge, pulls over the victor, puts dope in his trunk, finds it, the winner > gets 20 yrs in Alcatraz, the loser consoles the lonely bride of the > prisoner and takes her away. > > > > See how this can go wrong? There must be a severe price for falsifying > evidence. Otherwise the FBI cannot be trusted. The FBI falsified > evidence. Caught, convicted. They did almost nothing to the perp. Now, > the FBI cannot be trusted. There are no extenuating circumstances to > consider, none. > Yes, I agree they are breaking their own rules and that this is wrong. But it is possible to have a society where police, the courts and politicians are all perfectly honest, never break their own rules, but the rules are bad. It?s a different type of problem, but still a problem. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 02:39:13 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 18:39:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:35 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Now, even if the courts take the FBI?s word for it, we don?t. If the FBI > was the only witnesses and I am in the jury box, I would request some kind > of corroborating evidence to back up the FBI, for the FBI falsifies > evidence. > You would likely be dismissed from the jury pool and replaced for doing so - if you weren't simply ignored, or a mistrial declared either on the spot or when you hung the jury because you wouldn't take the FBI's word. > I predicted the FBI would need to fry one of their own bad apples, or give > away their credibility. They chose the latter. Now, we shine a bright > light on a lot of very suspicious things the FBI has been involved in since > that time, and we are seeing a lot of suspicious stuff, at least one of > those things right here in our own neighborhood Adrian. I can elaborate on > that last phrase if you wish. > Sure, go ahead. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 04:01:40 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 20:01:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66 .com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004f01d90539$9e8bff30$dba3fd90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >? we are seeing a lot of suspicious stuff, at least one of those things right here in our own neighborhood Adrian. I can elaborate on that last phrase if you wish. >? Sure, go ahead? We have a standing contradiction in police reports on that hammer attack on the husband of a prominent politician from San Francisco. A mainstream news source reported the SF police version, the network retracted the story without explanation, the reporter was replaced and has never again appeared on camera since then. The FBI offered a contradictory account of the events, and did not offer the police body cam video or still images which would answer which version is correct. So now? we the people are wondering if our own FBI suppressed a politically damaging story by the San Francisco police force. The FBI is in custody of that body cam footage, and they are not talking. But we do know the FBI falsifies evidence. We don?t know that the SF police department does so, and I don?t suspect them in this case. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 04:03:08 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 23:03:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike my man the way you talk about society and politics is what I imagine it would feel like if some philosopher came up to you and said that pi is exactly 3 On Wed, Nov 30, 2022, 9:46 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:35 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Now, even if the courts take the FBI?s word for it, we don?t. If the FBI >> was the only witnesses and I am in the jury box, I would request some kind >> of corroborating evidence to back up the FBI, for the FBI falsifies >> evidence. >> > > You would likely be dismissed from the jury pool and replaced for doing so > - if you weren't simply ignored, or a mistrial declared either on the spot > or when you hung the jury because you wouldn't take the FBI's word. > > >> I predicted the FBI would need to fry one of their own bad apples, or >> give away their credibility. They chose the latter. Now, we shine a >> bright light on a lot of very suspicious things the FBI has been involved >> in since that time, and we are seeing a lot of suspicious stuff, at least >> one of those things right here in our own neighborhood Adrian. I can >> elaborate on that last phrase if you wish. >> > > Sure, go ahead. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 05:49:45 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 21:49:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66 .com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >?Spike my man the way you talk about society and politics is what I imagine it would feel like if some philosopher came up to you and said that pi is exactly 3 Ja perhaps so Will. If she did, I would say she is exactly wrong. Falsifying evidence is exactly wrong too. Always. Not approximately wrong. Exactly wrong. In that particular case, it might have gotten a number of valuable US-sympathetic Russian CIA assets killed. That too is exactly wrong. spike ? for the FBI falsifies evidence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 06:13:04 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 01:13:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike I think something you might need to hear is that listening to you is basically identical, for me, to listening to some normie who watches CNN and follows all the trends from *that* mainstream. Yeah you make some good points, albeit often covered in a lotta bs, but so do they. And both of yalls for the most part don't really make nuanced arguments at all, just teleological ones based on dislike of the other side. There's something true deep down in there but it is obfuscated by hypocritical nonarguments, just like the side you don't like. Turn off the Fox news, man. It's just as bad as CNN. Sorry to be harsh, I don't like to be but honestly it does annoy me and as someone who understands the benefit of both conservative/traditionalist as well as liberal/progressive ideas (I lean libertarian, as I think most of us here do,) I think the way you speak does a disservice to the greater understanding of the positive aspects of rightism, just like the acab neopronoun twitterites do a disservice to the analogous aspects of leftism. And for what it's worth neither side seems to really be much of what they say. The lefties are talking about the importance of autonomy and individual choice while the righties are banning books and licking the boots of armed government thugs (saw a house the other day with a blue lives flag AND a gadsden flag, howboutdat?). Truly a topsy-turvy, clownian world we live in. ??????? ?? ????? On Thu, Dec 1, 2022, 12:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > > > >?Spike my man the way you talk about society and politics is what I > imagine it would feel like if some philosopher came up to you and said that > pi is exactly 3 > > > > Ja perhaps so Will. If she did, I would say she is exactly wrong. > Falsifying evidence is exactly wrong too. Always. Not approximately > wrong. Exactly wrong. > > > > In that particular case, it might have gotten a number of valuable > US-sympathetic Russian CIA assets killed. That too is exactly wrong. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > ? for the FBI falsifies evidence. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 06:29:13 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 22:29:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review Spike I think something you might need to hear is that listening to you is basically identical, for me, to listening to some normie ?Truly a topsy-turvy, clownian world we live in. ??????? ?? ????? Will I don?t really understand your post, but no worries, for we can eliminate all right vs left discussion in this case and talk only right vs wrong. Some right vs wrong is absolute. It really is. When the FBI falsifies evidence, that is always always wrong. There are no possible circumstances that justifies anything of the kind. It is power abuse. With that pretty much universal agreement (for not many will disagree) then we can ask some unambiguous yes or no questions. Such as: Did the FBI catch and convict one of their own of falsifying evidence? Yes. Did they burn the guy? No. He never went to prison. As far as I can see that establishes that the FBI falsifies evidence. No right vs left there. Only right vs wrong. That is power abuse, pure and simple, no ambiguity. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 15:37:41 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 15:37:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 06:32, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Some right vs wrong is absolute. It really is. When the FBI falsifies evidence, that is always always wrong. There are no possible circumstances that justifies anything of the kind. It is power abuse. With that pretty much universal agreement (for not many will disagree) then we can ask some unambiguous yes or no questions. Such as: > > Did the FBI catch and convict one of their own of falsifying evidence? Yes. Did they burn the guy? No. He never went to prison. As far as I can see that establishes that the FBI falsifies evidence. No right vs left there. Only right vs wrong. That is power abuse, pure and simple, no ambiguity. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Now that San Francisco has authorised killer robots, < https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/30/san-francisco-police-can-now-use-robots-to-kill/ > it might be wise to reduce criticism of officials before you find one of these outside your front door. :) BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: robot.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 65268 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 15:47:25 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 07:47:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <004401d90528$75871cc0$60955640$@rainier66 .com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> >?Spike my man the way you talk about society and politics is what I imagine it would feel like if some philosopher came up to you and said that pi is exactly 3? Will Will, this is kinda in response to your comment but really it is for BillK, since the prophet Huxley was one of his lads from England. Do let me start with remarking how prescient was Huxley. Well done indeed, England. Technology is fast, but law is slow. A glaring British example is in the bizarre case of the shooting of Sasha Johnson. Since I am not familiar with British politics, I get only the top level: four guys came to a party where there were at least a coupla hundred people, shot somebody and left. The Brits, having cameras everywhere controlled by the constabulary, followed the video trail, caught the perps with the smoking gun. Easy case, ja? YyyyyyaNo. With all that, with the smoking gun, with the video, the prosecution STILL had no actual court-admissible evidence, which apparently in Britain, requires a witness to show up in court and testify. None of the seething hordes at the party were willing to do so, the perps were declared not guilty, and now? the shooting victim didn?t actually die, but is functionally dead, the armed perps were given a demonstration that they can shoot somebody almost dead and get away without penalty. Oy vey. Hey, technology is fast, law is slow. The British legal system is what it is. OK, well then, any time one points a finger, there are three pointing back at oneself. So do let us yanks take a good hard look at ourselves and ask what this hammer attack business must look like from the point of view of those not familiar with yankee politics, and while we are at it, remove that aspect of the case from our own view (as much as possible.) We had a news agency reporting a hammer attack story which kinda made sense, but the news agency retracted its own story without ever replacing it with a revised version. It never explained what was wrong with its own vaguely plausible original story. The FBI issued a report which is self contradictory and makes no sense with either or any of the possible interpretations. Video evidence made by the arresting authorities exists but the FBI seized that and refuses to allow it to be viewed. Those who ask questions, merely ask questions, are accused of being conspiracy theorists. Indeed? Is a question a theory? Can one ask a conspiracy query? Is asking for video a theory? But hey, technology is fast, law is slow. The US legal system is what it is. Some people cannot read, and some cannot reason, but nearly all of us can see. To explain what happens in a confrontation between the authorities and perps, we don?t need to see a written description, when video of the incident exists. Just show us the damn video. We will write what we think happened. Failing that, just show us a single frame from that video, the one from the precise moment the door of the victim was opened (by someone (who? (in one place it says the victim, in another place it says the constables))) so that we can see where was the victim, where was the hammer guy, what configuration was the hammer at that precise moment. Where every player was standing at that precise moment is what we want to know, for the written description of the incident raises more questions than answers, and the agency responsible for writing that really just doesn?t want to talk about. Well? we who pay the salaries of that law enforcement agency do want to talk about it. The Brits want to know too, some of them do. They have no political anything, just puzzled by the whole thing, as we yanks are. Inquiring minds want to know. Note that none of that is a conspiracy theory, for a conspiracy theory requires a theory. Without a theory, a conspiracy theory is just conspiracy. I have none in this bizarre case because the written description of the hammer incident gives me no plausible theory. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23856 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 15:54:05 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 07:54:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66 .com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > >>? Did the FBI catch and convict one of their own of falsifying evidence? Yes. Did they burn the guy? No. He never went to prison? spike > _______________________________________________ >?Now that San Francisco has authorised killer robots, >? it might be wise to reduce criticism of officials before you find one of these outside your front door. :) BillK BillK, we thank you for having perspectives and insights that escape far too many yanks. You get it. Not all yanks do. Just so this goes into the record: I am doing nothing illegal, never have (well other than that tag ripping caper that landed BillW and me in Alcatraz for 20 years (details cheerfully available on request.)) I am not the least bit suicidal, not despondent (which I would assume is a preliminary condition.) If something dreadful and mysterious occurs in my home, you can be pretty sure it is bogus as three dollar bill. If we cannot criticize officials, if the USA loses freedom of speech, then brutal tyranny is all that is left. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 16:24:56 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 16:24:56 +0000 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 15:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Technology is fast, but law is slow. A glaring British example is in the bizarre case of the shooting of Sasha Johnson. Since I am not familiar with British politics, I get only the top level: four guys came to a party where there were at least a coupla hundred people, shot somebody and left. The Brits, having cameras everywhere controlled by the constabulary, followed the video trail, caught the perps with the smoking gun. Easy case, ja? > > YyyyyyaNo. With all that, with the smoking gun, with the video, the prosecution STILL had no actual court-admissible evidence, which apparently in Britain, requires a witness to show up in court and testify. None of the seething hordes at the party were willing to do so, the perps were declared not guilty, and now? the shooting victim didn?t actually die, but is functionally dead, the armed perps were given a demonstration that they can shoot somebody almost dead and get away without penalty. Oy vey. > > _______________________________________________ Basically correct, but it is a bit more complicated than that. The four men were wearing balaclavas that covered their heads and it was during the night, so id would have been difficult. The police had other evidence which they didn't want to disclose in a public court. No reason given. The real problem is drugs and the black gangs shooting each other. Sasha Johnson was almost certainly not the intended victim. None of the black people at the event are witnesses, partly from fear of the gangs, but also because they don't trust the London police. There are ongoing scandals about police prejudice and victimisation of black people. There is no easy solution to this problem. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 16:29:49 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 10:29:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Too much secrecy, from local to national. We need to approach it from both directions: needed laws for the ordinary citizens' privacy (good, but what about us?), and release of information laws to prevent error by law enforcement. There should be no 'but if we release this, then ......'. Just release what law says and there is no room for do it or don't do it. (I am sure some lawyer will find fault with this) billw On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 9:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *BillK via extropy-chat > > > > > >>? Did the FBI catch and convict one of their own of falsifying > evidence? Yes. Did they burn the guy? No. He never went to prison? spike > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >?Now that San Francisco has authorised killer robots, > < > https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/30/san-francisco-police-can-now-use-robots-to-kill/ > > > > >? it might be wise to reduce criticism of officials before you find one > of these outside your front door. :) > > > > BillK > > > > > > > > BillK, we thank you for having perspectives and insights that escape far > too many yanks. You get it. Not all yanks do. > > > > Just so this goes into the record: I am doing nothing illegal, never have > (well other than that tag ripping caper that landed BillW and me in > Alcatraz for 20 years (details cheerfully available on request.)) I am not > the least bit suicidal, not despondent (which I would assume is a > preliminary condition.) If something dreadful and mysterious occurs in my > home, you can be pretty sure it is bogus as three dollar bill. > > > > If we cannot criticize officials, if the USA loses freedom of speech, then > brutal tyranny is all that is left. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 17:25:07 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 09:25:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008e01d905a9$dc11b460$94351d20$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 15:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ... Easy case, ja? > >>... YyyyyyaNo. With all that, with the smoking gun, with the video, the prosecution STILL had no actual court-admissible evidence, which apparently in Britain, requires a witness to show up in court and testify. ... > _______________________________________________ >...Basically correct, but it is a bit more complicated than that. ... >...There is no easy solution to this problem. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja thx for that BillK, we are generally aware of it. However, I want offer you something to ponder. Imagine what it looks like from outside, where we don't know about that gang bit, don't know about the color of this person or that, or we hope to think Britain doesn't have those kinds of problems. From that perspective, a guy shot somebody, the constables used video and caught him, they farted around with a legal system as antiquated as... well, our own... then ended up letting the guy go so he can go shoot somebody else. Now that I have asked you what you think that shooting looks like from the US perspective, I ask myself what that hammer business must look like from a British perspective. Feel free to comment, but in the meantime, I will speculate. The Brits can read the same info we have. They must have the same questions, but (most critically) without the cluttery detail. The Brits can see the FBI seized the constables' body cam video and refuse to allow any of it to see the light of day, not a single frame, but we yanks know why it is a critical question, having nothing to do with political parties and everything to do with... the FBI. We have long sensed all is not well in that agency. In any case, here is a good question we Yanks should be asking ourselves, beside the previous one of what that incident looks like to outsiders. We should ask ourselves, regardless of which party one belongs to, are we cool with it if the reins of power in Washington change hands and the other guy gets control of all that power? All these precedents have been set, and now what if the other guy inherits all this power that wasn't there before? Everybody OK with that? Will, OK with that? BillW, good with it? Well, I'm not. I am Libertarian, the brand that actually votes for the libertarian candidate most of the time. So the two mainstream parties are to me nearly indistinguishable but the opposite party from mine is the Totalitarian party, and no, I am not at all OK with that party inheriting all that power. It is dangerous as all hell in the current hands, all the more so in the hands of an angry vengeance-minded opposite party. Political power snowballs and snowballs roll downhill. The bottom of that hill is always totalitarianism. spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 17:29:24 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 12:29:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, sorry but you're out of your element. I'm MORE into conspiracy theories than you. I am more fringe than you. I literally saw that Pelosi theory emerge on the forums it started on. I am a primary source. I believe in Pizzagate and a 9/11 conspiracy for fuck's sake. The Pelosi hammer thing is tenuous and there are far clearer and better examples of the FBI lying. I'm not sure why you decided to cling to this one but I'm telling you that I was witness to its formation before it was chewed up and excreted on whatever tucker-carlson-esque conservaslop channel you saw it on. I'm not being aggressive because I'm against you. I'm being aggressive because we are in many ways on the same side but you are choosing to regurgitate propaganda instead of actual nuanced argument. I'm telling you man the stuff you say just sounds like any fox news boomer, and I imagine your palette of sources and depth of research is about the same as that. If you'd like to be convincing at least show sources, otherwise I will assume your source is a single bread-and-circus TV show segment. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 17:49:44 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 11:49:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Pizzagate, Will? Goings on in a pizza parlor basement that has no basement? Well, I am in ignorance of all the facts, so maybe it has a basement? I stay away from most of this because all of us lack vital information about what actually happened in several of these cases. In that absence, any theory can seem valid to an extent. But what happened to Ockham? bill w On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:33 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike, sorry but you're out of your element. > > I'm MORE into conspiracy theories than you. I am more fringe than you. I > literally saw that Pelosi theory emerge on the forums it started on. I am > a primary source. I believe in Pizzagate and a 9/11 conspiracy for fuck's > sake. The Pelosi hammer thing is tenuous and there are far clearer and > better examples of the FBI lying. I'm not sure why you decided to cling to > this one but I'm telling you that I was witness to its formation before it > was chewed up and excreted on whatever tucker-carlson-esque conservaslop > channel you saw it on. > > I'm not being aggressive because I'm against you. I'm being aggressive > because we are in many ways on the same side but you are choosing to > regurgitate propaganda instead of actual nuanced argument. I'm telling > you man the stuff you say just sounds like any fox news boomer, and I > imagine your palette of sources and depth of research is about the same as > that. > > If you'd like to be convincing at least show sources, otherwise I will > assume your source is a single bread-and-circus TV show segment. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 20:28:47 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 15:28:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Suffice to say the basement was a spook, that was never really part of it apart from the crazies. It's more generally just about a DC pedophile ring which is pretty much guaranteed to exist as these kinds of things happen wherever powerful people congregate--see also Jimmy Savile, Prince Andrew, Epstein, etc. And the fact that certain people in the DC socialite circuit posted some really really creepy stuff involving kids, and that led down some other paths to more creepy people. The basement and that guy with the rifle were always fringe and not really part of the theory. In any case all I'm trying to say is that I was there as people were compiling the whole Paul Pelosi thing and it was messy and very unclear. Just not a great hill to die on in terms of fed lies since I think there are easier more presentable pathways. In a way I also think I harbor resentment against people who just get the fox news conspiracy digest because I spend a good amount of time in the places where the sausage is made and they are hard places to stick around. Lots of very nasty, hateful people. On Thu, Dec 1, 2022, 12:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Pizzagate, Will? Goings on in a pizza parlor basement that has no > basement? Well, I am in ignorance of all the facts, so maybe it has a > basement? > > I stay away from most of this because all of us lack vital information > about what actually happened in several of these cases. In that absence, > any theory can seem valid to an extent. But what happened to Ockham? bill > w > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:33 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Spike, sorry but you're out of your element. >> >> I'm MORE into conspiracy theories than you. I am more fringe than you. >> I literally saw that Pelosi theory emerge on the forums it started on. I >> am a primary source. I believe in Pizzagate and a 9/11 conspiracy for >> fuck's sake. The Pelosi hammer thing is tenuous and there are far clearer >> and better examples of the FBI lying. I'm not sure why you decided to >> cling to this one but I'm telling you that I was witness to its formation >> before it was chewed up and excreted on whatever tucker-carlson-esque >> conservaslop channel you saw it on. >> >> I'm not being aggressive because I'm against you. I'm being aggressive >> because we are in many ways on the same side but you are choosing to >> regurgitate propaganda instead of actual nuanced argument. I'm telling >> you man the stuff you say just sounds like any fox news boomer, and I >> imagine your palette of sources and depth of research is about the same as >> that. >> >> If you'd like to be convincing at least show sources, otherwise I will >> assume your source is a single bread-and-circus TV show segment. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Thu Dec 1 20:33:24 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 20:33:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Being MORE into conspiracy that someone else, and believing in Pizzagate and 9/11 conspiracy is NOT a way to gain credibility here. I'm truly baffled why you would think so and put Spike down for asking entirely sensible and focused questions. If you believe you have better information due to being on conspiracy email lists, provide the specific evidence that Spike hasn't seen. >From my POV, Spike's political views are like the person who is asked "What is pi?" and answers "3.1415927 to be approximate (at least in this universe). How many more digits do you need?" ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2022 10:29 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Will Steinberg Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review Spike, sorry but you're out of your element. I'm MORE into conspiracy theories than you. I am more fringe than you. I literally saw that Pelosi theory emerge on the forums it started on. I am a primary source. I believe in Pizzagate and a 9/11 conspiracy for fuck's sake. The Pelosi hammer thing is tenuous and there are far clearer and better examples of the FBI lying. I'm not sure why you decided to cling to this one but I'm telling you that I was witness to its formation before it was chewed up and excreted on whatever tucker-carlson-esque conservaslop channel you saw it on. I'm not being aggressive because I'm against you. I'm being aggressive because we are in many ways on the same side but you are choosing to regurgitate propaganda instead of actual nuanced argument. I'm telling you man the stuff you say just sounds like any fox news boomer, and I imagine your palette of sources and depth of research is about the same as that. If you'd like to be convincing at least show sources, otherwise I will assume your source is a single bread-and-circus TV show segment. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 20:50:07 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 20:50:07 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What Will Humans Look Like in a Million Years? Message-ID: Anders Sandberg (former Exi-chat member) has a new article published. Quotes: Cyborgs v ?holdout humans?: what the world might be like if our species survives for a million years Published: November 29, 2022 Author: Anders Sandberg Foreseeable future technologies such as human enhancement (making ourselves smarter, stronger or in other ways better using drugs, microchips, genetics or other technology), brain emulation (uploading our brains to computers) or artificial intelligence (AI) may produce technological forms of new species not seen in biology. Under silicon canopies in the Sahara, trillions of artificial minds teem. The vast and hot data centres which power these minds once threatened to overheat the planet. Now, most orbit the Sun, forming a growing structure ? a Dyson sphere ? where each watt of energy powers thought, consciousness, complexity and other strange things we do not have words for yet. ---------------------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 21:12:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 13:12:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012401d905c9$9fa3ae50$deeb0af0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review Spike, sorry but you're out of your element. >?I'm MORE into conspiracy theories than you? No way Jose! I am waaaay conspiracier than thou! >?I am more fringe than you. I literally saw that Pelosi theory emerge on the forums it started on. Forums? The FBI report is a forum? >?If you'd like to be convincing at least show sources, otherwise I will assume your source is a single bread-and-circus TV show segment? Well, the FBI. But no worries, you wanted sources, heeeeere ya go: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1548106/download The FBI report says this: ? 10. At 2:31 a.m., San Francisco Police Department (?SFPD?) Officer Colby Wilmes responded to the Pelosi residence, California and knocked on the front door. When the door was opened, Pelosi and DEPAPE were both holding a hammer with one hand and DEPAPE had his other hand holding onto Pelosi?s forearm. Pelosi greeted the officers. The officers asked them what was going on. DEPAPE responded that everything was good. Officers then asked Pelosi and DEPAPE to drop the hammer. 11. DEPAPE pulled the hammer from Pelosi?s hand and swung the hammer, striking Pelosi in the head. Officers immediately went inside and were able to restrain DEPAPE. While officers were restraining DEPAPE, Pelosi appeared to be unconscious on the ground. Officers removed a cell phone, cash, clipper cards, and an unidentified card from DEPAPE?s right shorts pocket. DEPAPE provided officers his first and last name. After officers asked DEPAPE if he had an ID on him, DEPAPE said it might be in his backpack on the back porch and later stated his backpack was near the broken glass. When officers removed DEPAPE from Pelosi?s residence, police body worn camera footage showed a glass door that appeared to be laminated glass, broken near the door handle. San Francisco Police Department recovered zip ties in Pelosi?s bedroom and in the hallway near the front door of the Pelosi residence. In addition, law enforcement searched DEPAPE?s backpack at the Pelosi residence, and they found, among other things, a roll of tape, white rope, one hammer, one pair of rubber and cloth gloves, and a journal. Will, I read this thing several times and it raised a lot of questions, which is perhaps why it spawned so many conspiracy theories, perhaps all of them simultaneous originals and all of them arising from this puzzling report. For instance, ? the officers ?knocked on the front door. When the door was opened?? Who opened the door? It doesn?t say, but kinda sounds like Pelosi, but that would require a hand. He was at that moment in a life or death struggle against a sturdy-looking young man, who had both his hands in the act of clobbering the octogenarian. The beleaguered octogenarian somehow had a hand free to open the door? Was the door locked? If not why not? How did the struggling pair get over to the door? Who was standing where when ?the door opened?? How did they get there? Why did not the FBI just show us the video rather than write up this confusing report? Does the video verify the local witness testimony which reported that the perp was wearing all black? Were this stealth clothing? If so, why the shorts? Would not the white legs be visible? Was the perp wearing a black hoodie with black? shorts? Is that on the video? Why is a multi-millionaire living in a home in a crime-infested city which can be physically entered by force using only a hammer? What is that ?Pelosi greeted the officers? bit? How did he greet them? Did he say something like ?Good morning officers, this murderous freak broke into my home and is currently in the process of attempting to clobber me with this hammer in my right hand? or some other greeting? What greeting? Why not just show us the video? Where is the video? If Pelosi had said something like the above, would the FBI report contain the line the ?officers asked them what was going on?? Had Pelosi said the above, would not the FBI officers conclude that idle pleasantries were not appropriate if dealing with a murderous freak caught in the act of attempting to clobber the apparent homeowner with a hammer? Will, do you see how all of these questions arise not from any other source besides the FBI?s own report? I had no other sources, for I didn?t need them. All these and a hundred other questions spontaneously arise like zombies from the cemetery at the apocalypse, and all the above were from three paragraphs of an eight page report. That being said, I don?t understand how it is that gets to the status of conspiracy theory when it is merely a list of questions. Are questions theories? If so, what is the theory? Is it possible to have a conspiracy theory without an actual? like? theory? What is it called? Do tell for I don?t know what that is. What I see is a confusing report that could easily be cleared up with just 20 seconds of video, or failing that (why is that failing?) just a single frame showing where these guys were standing when ?the door opened.? Of course a single frame would spawn another obvious question: why did the local constables strike up idle conversation with these two when they appeared to be struggling for control of a lethal weapon? The mind boggles. But Will, perhaps that report does answer all your questions. It doesn?t answer mine. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 21:25:25 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 13:25:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014801d905cb$6e115570$4a340050$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >?In any case all I'm trying to say is that I was there as people were compiling the whole Paul Pelosi thing and it was messy and very unclear? But why was it messy and unclear? The FBI has the video. Why don?t they just release the video? Then it would be tidy and clear. >? Just not a great hill to die on in terms of fed lies since I think there are easier more presentable pathways? How do we know the Fed is lying? I agree the FBI report paints a weird picture, but I wouldn?t say they are lying until I see the actual video. Why would they not release the video? >?In a way I also think I harbor resentment against people who just get the fox news conspiracy digest? Is a conspiracy theory without an actual theory called a conspiracy digest? Resentment? >?because I spend a good amount of time in the places where the sausage is made and they are hard places to stick around. Lots of very nasty, hateful people? Eh? Will? that comment in itself bring up an obvious question: why do you spend a good amount of time where it is hard to stick around because of nasty hateful people? I don?t understand. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 21:32:07 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 16:32:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <014801d905cb$6e115570$4a340050$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> <014801d905cb$6e115570$4a340050$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Wait so you are saying you came upon that report without having seen any news about it which might have had some opinion baked in? I mean I would believe you if you say so but it was a popular news story for a sec so I assumed that's how you first saw it. Just was curious what channel or site you saw it on. I spend time on those forums because they are some of the only places where I can get early information that isn't spun by the mainstream. There's a lotta bullshit but the nuggets are worth it, to me. And I just like to see all perspectives in general, even the shitty ones On Thu, Dec 1, 2022, 4:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > >?In any case all I'm trying to say is that I was there as people were > compiling the whole Paul Pelosi thing and it was messy and very unclear? > > > > But why was it messy and unclear? The FBI has the video. Why don?t they > just release the video? Then it would be tidy and clear. > > > > >? Just not a great hill to die on in terms of fed lies since I think > there are easier more presentable pathways? > > > > How do we know the Fed is lying? I agree the FBI report paints a weird > picture, but I wouldn?t say they are lying until I see the actual video. > Why would they not release the video? > > > > >?In a way I also think I harbor resentment against people who just get > the fox news conspiracy digest? > > > > Is a conspiracy theory without an actual theory called a conspiracy > digest? Resentment? > > > > >?because I spend a good amount of time in the places where the sausage is > made and they are hard places to stick around. Lots of very nasty, hateful > people? > > > > Eh? Will? that comment in itself bring up an obvious question: why do you > spend a good amount of time where it is hard to stick around because of > nasty hateful people? I don?t understand. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 21:50:11 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 13:50:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <007201d90548$b84abbf0$28e033d0$@rainier66.com> <000901d9054e$3c46ef50$b4d4cdf0$@rainier66.com> <005801d9059d$24880a80$6d981f80$@rainier66.com> <014801d905cb$6e115570$4a340050$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016d01d905ce$e41a21e0$ac4e65a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review >?Wait so you are saying you came upon that report without having seen any news about it which might have had some opinion baked in?... Questions don?t have opinions Will. They are questions only. Ja, I saw there were popular news reports, but they published the FBI story, so I went there. A hundred questions came out of that report. My main news source is the libertarian publication Reason, but I don?t recall where I got the link to the FBI report. I don?t recall that any popular news agency had any good answers to any of the questions raised by the FBI report or really the very most obvious one of all: where is the video? Have you seen it? Why don?t they just show us that and be done with it? If the FBI still has that, cannot we FOIA request it? If they don?t, why not? What happened to it? It was their foggy report that caused all these questions, which kinda almost implicates the San Fran Police, who somehow failed to spring into action when they saw two guys apparently grappling with a weapon, yet failed to prevent an attack. Seems to me even I could have done better than that. In accordance with the FBI report, the constable demanded they drop the hammer, Pelosi complied, the freak clobbered him, which almost sounds like a police procedural error. The constable should have controlled the hammer himself, then told the two men to release it. There were other weird aspects to the story. The victim went to the hospital with a fractured skull, but a hammer blow to the head would cause the kind of injury which would be difficult for an octogenarian to even survive, never mind coming home a few days later. I would presume it was a dent fracture, which would put pressure on the brain, which would cause swelling and perhaps a stroke. Very odd. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Thu Dec 1 22:37:51 2022 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 17:37:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> Spike wrote: >There is an absolute limit to how big a Marxist society can be (8 billion >or so) but it isn't clear there is a lower limit, so we can imagine a kind >of cult with 100 people from-ing and to-ing each other, or even just a >family with one brutal dictator and the rest doing exactly as instructed, or >even a couple, and most of us at some point have witnessed a couple like >that, with one making all the decisions and the other telling her: OK dear, >right away dear and so forth, but at some point she might get tired of >having a proletariat who is insufficiently skilled at to-ing to her needs, >so she throws him back. Then she is a Marxist society of one. Back when, my father wrote an article for The Freeman, "Socialism as a Family Enterprise." He pointed out at, at best, it works for a family. At least until one of your kids (me) is old enough to push back. Indeed, by the time the piece came out, I'd gone over the metaphorical wall from his diktats and left for freedom 9,000 km away. https://fee.org/articles/socialism-as-a-family-enterprise/ -- David. From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 1 23:22:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 15:22:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> Message-ID: <018a01d905db$c8702630$59507290$@rainier66.com> ... Cc: David Lubkin Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review Spike wrote: >>...There is an absolute limit to how big a Marxist society can be (8 >billion or so) but it isn't clear there is a lower limit... Then she is a Marxist society of one. >...Back when, my father wrote an article for The Freeman, "Socialism as a Family Enterprise." ... https://fee.org/articles/socialism-as-a-family-enterprise/ -- David. _______________________________________________ Well David Lubkin, how the freaking heck are ye, me lad? Sheesh have you been here the whole time listening to all this? We coulda been taking your name in vain for the past decade not knowing you were listening to all the blasphemy. Welcome back. Tell us everything that happened please. spike From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Dec 1 23:32:25 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 18:32:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> Message-ID: <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> That's such a good article. :) I sent the link to my kids. I remember reading it way back when... And where have you been? I've checked your blog every once in a while, but nothing since 2015, which was another world. I hope you are well. Regards, MB David Lubkin via extropy-chat wrote: > https://fee.org/articles/socialism-as-a-family-enterprise/ > From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 00:16:30 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 19:16:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> Message-ID: That's another thing that kinda bugged me, Spike--the way you were talking about Marxism made it seem like you were conflating it with authoritarianism. Marxism isn't even a form of government it's just a way to analyze history and society. And communism too is an economic mode, not a government system. It just means the workers own the factory/tools instead of renting them from corporations for the cost of most of the value of their labor. There is legitimate economic deadweight loss from the monopolization of the means of production. So much extra money could go into the actual economy instead of the coffers of the few, if workers were paid closer to what their labor is worth. If each worker or group of workers owns the means of production, market forces will lead to both higher wages for workers and lower prices for goods because the vampire class is no longer making the economy less efficient by charging exorbitant rent for the ability to work. I like a roughly anarcho-communist model, federated, with trade between the communes. I believe competition is very important and impossible to get rid of, but I also think workers should either own the means of production or get paid a hell of a lot more. People should be paid what their labor is worth, less further production and transport costs. Right now the minimum wage has stagnated while inflation continues, leading to over 20% lower wages in real terms. Yet the products sold by the companies using that labor DO increase in price with inflation. That 20% was essentially stolen by the companies. Nothing changed; there was no merit leading to a deserving of that extra money for the owners. It's pure loss of economic efficiency at the expense of the working class. I'm very pro small business but there's no excuse for the pilfering of the workers' labor value for no reason other than "I want that money!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Fri Dec 2 00:31:36 2022 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 19:31:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <018a01d905db$c8702630$59507290$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <018a01d905db$c8702630$59507290$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <202212020031.2B20Vjrd029827@athena.zia.io> Spike wrote: >Well David Lubkin, how the freaking heck are ye, me lad? Sheesh have you >been here the whole time listening to all this? We coulda been taking your >name in vain for the past decade not knowing you were listening to all the >blasphemy. Welcome back. Tell us everything that happened please. My last post was in 2019. But as Kosh put it on Babylon 5, I have always been here. At least, back close to the beginning of the old list, and the extro-related newsgroups before that. I'm just way behind in reading posts.... I've been mostly on FB, posting a lot to my wall and participating in groups like the Heinlein Forum or the FSP. Any extropian is welcome to stop by my wall. My illustrious mother, who edited Physics Today for 45 years, died just before the Covid lockdowns. I told her story with a series of cover photos that starts with: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10219789346016933 And I've written similar, shorter pieces there about other losses we're suffered, like Greg Bear a couple weeks ago, alongside a pic I took of him at Extro-5. Off social media I'm mostly just head down, engineering. Nothing implicitly exciting but I manage to find cool in whatever I do. -- David. From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 00:32:40 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 16:32:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] possible explanation of what happened In-Reply-To: <008701d904ec$d5587f40$80097dc0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <008701d904ec$d5587f40$80097dc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003801d905e5$967303f0$c3590bd0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...This virus morphed into a variant which doesn't do much, but we know it is highly contagious (it is STILL making the rounds at the high school) and has side effects. ...But all this gives me an idea. Give me a few hours to think. spike OK this idea took longer to cook than I anticipated, but it is ready to serve. In nature a virus evolves to become more contagious but usually less harmful to its host. This makes sense for in that way it becomes more fit by becoming better adapted to its environment, which is really what evolution is all about Charlie Brown. The later variants of covid evolved and have become waaaay less lethal, but the critical factor is that each variant conferred upon its hapless host an immunity against the previous variants which sent those variants into extinction. OK now suppose a researcher wanted to create a mild virus which conferred immunity from corona virus by accelerating that evolution process several orders of magnitude, preferably without unleashing a planet-shattering plague and slaying millions of proles. Noting that I am an engineer and not an immunologist, not even a hobby plague creator, but I read about serial passage, wherein one accelerates the evolution of a virus in the following way. Find a host beast, such as bats in the case of coronavirus, poke a bunch of them with a virus known to infect both humans and bats. The virus spikes way up, the bat's immune system reacts, bringing the virus load back down a coupla days later. So now, instead of leaving the bats in merciful seclusion, the researchers poke the flappy bastards again, reinfecting the hapless beasts with a virus load similar to what it was at the peak infection. The second time there is already a lot of antibodies, so the virus load quickly drops off, so they pop the suckers again. And again and again and again. The bats don't care for this a damn bit. But the result is that instead of a million virus hours per bat, the tortured creatures experience perhaps trillions of virus hours, accelerating viral evolution. In some of the bats, the virus might mutate into something way more severe, which of course slays that bat and any others he infects, but those are removed and disposed of. The researchers watch and continue with the dwindling population of hapless creatures, needling and needling until the surviving test subjects eagerly await the first opportunity to flap out of that wretched cage and bite your fucking nose off. The researchers would richly deserve this of course, but with this accelerated technology-assisted evolution, perhaps a mild variant of covid can be developed with out actually accidentally unleashing the whole planet shattering pandemic, slaying millions and such unpleasantness as that. OK then. Now suppose those dead bats were disposed of by incineration, but some needle-jockey instead took them over to the local meat market and sold them for making bat soup, resulting in that unpleasantness described in the previous paragraph. If so, then Dr. Fauci would be telling the truth in a very loose-fitting sense. He could argue that he did not fund gain of function research in China, just the opposite. He funded loss of function research. The planet-shattering pandemic was merely a by-product, an unfortunate and unintended consequence. He had to outsource it to a country where people actually devour the revolting rodents because such research isn't legal in less...eh... hungry places, by reason of collective reluctance to risk releasing murderous plagues. By that line of reasoning, Dr. Fauci kinda sorta told the truth, in a sense. Have we any surviving virus hipsters among us who might elaborate or refute such a notion? spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 00:56:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 16:56:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review >?That's another thing that kinda bugged me, Spike--the way you were talking about Marxism made it seem like you were conflating it with authoritarianism? No worries Will. Given sufficiently independent Marxist governments, most with populations of one to five, the scenario you describe works just fine and always have. Times have changed, a lot. Now we no longer rely on human labor to manufacture stuff very much. A really good example is the Tesla factory up the street. There are workers there, but most of them are overseeing manufacturing equipment. It is nothing like the Ford factory that was there 30 years ago where lines of actual biological units made and assembled the cars. Henry Ford was such a primitive savage that way. Now our biological units are mostly from India and write software to control the construction of the cars. They have the option of owning the tools, by buying up stock in their own company. Those who followed that practice in Tesla are in great shape now. They generally have a very low collective opinion of Marxism, while simultaneously practicing it in their homes, to eaching and from eaching with their spouses and children. Plenty of workers today are software developers, in which case they already do own the tools. More workers are moving toward that professional paradigm all the time. That whole gathering in a factory renting the corporation?s tools business that vexed Marx (and his four brothers) is really much diminished. I can easily foresee that Marxism (and every variant of communism) steadily losing popularity, considering the current experience in China, where the population would prefer to not have the exits welded shut because of covid. This expediency for slowing the pandemic carries its own risks, such as making emergency egress physically impossible when the damn building catches fire. The Chinese proletariat disapprove of this as much as we would. The big difference of course is that our asses are heavily armed and we intend to stay that way, lest we suffer the same fate as the Chinese. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 01:10:45 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 17:10:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <202212020031.2B20Vjrd029827@athena.zia.io> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <018a01d905db$c8702630$59507290$@rainier66.com> <202212020031.2B20Vjrd029827@athena.zia.io> Message-ID: <006c01d905ea$e853c330$b8fb4990$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of David Lubkin via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review Spike wrote: >>...Well David Lubkin... we coulda been taking your name in vain for the past decade not knowing you were listening to all the blasphemy. Welcome back... >...My last post was in 2019. But as Kosh put it on Babylon 5, I have always been here. ... -- David. _______________________________________________ Oh OK well then, welcome still here David and thanks for the article. So sorry to hear of your mother's passing. I'll tell ya the feller I miss: Dr. Rafal. He's been busy being a medic one might suppose. His posts were always so insightful. Years of medical school might have had something to do with that. I have half a mind to drop him a note and ask him to swing by the old hangout. spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 03:06:56 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 22:06:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well again I don't think the Chinese people hate Marxism, it's a hard thing to hate if you understand it because it's true--workers should get fair pay for the value of the work they do. What they hate is authoritarianism. You say factory working is diminished but I'm pretty sure the majority of the world does that kind of work. And even in America, minimum wage work for corporations is very, very widespread, even if a few factories are partially automated... On Thu, Dec 1, 2022, 7:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review > > > > >?That's another thing that kinda bugged me, Spike--the way you were > talking about Marxism made it seem like you were conflating it with > authoritarianism? > > > > No worries Will. Given sufficiently independent Marxist governments, most > with populations of one to five, the scenario you describe works just fine > and always have. > > > > Times have changed, a lot. Now we no longer rely on human labor to > manufacture stuff very much. A really good example is the Tesla factory up > the street. There are workers there, but most of them are overseeing > manufacturing equipment. It is nothing like the Ford factory that was > there 30 years ago where lines of actual biological units made and > assembled the cars. Henry Ford was such a primitive savage that way. > > > > Now our biological units are mostly from India and write software to > control the construction of the cars. They have the option of owning the > tools, by buying up stock in their own company. Those who followed that > practice in Tesla are in great shape now. They generally have a very low > collective opinion of Marxism, while simultaneously practicing it in their > homes, to eaching and from eaching with their spouses and children. > > > > Plenty of workers today are software developers, in which case they > already do own the tools. More workers are moving toward that professional > paradigm all the time. That whole gathering in a factory renting the > corporation?s tools business that vexed Marx (and his four brothers) is > really much diminished. > > > > I can easily foresee that Marxism (and every variant of communism) > steadily losing popularity, considering the current experience in China, > where the population would prefer to not have the exits welded shut because > of covid. This expediency for slowing the pandemic carries its own risks, > such as making emergency egress physically impossible when the damn > building catches fire. The Chinese proletariat disapprove of this as much > as we would. The big difference of course is that our asses are heavily > armed and we intend to stay that way, lest we suffer the same fate as the > Chinese. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 05:46:53 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 21:46:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] possible explanation of what happened In-Reply-To: <003801d905e5$967303f0$c3590bd0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <008701d904ec$d5587f40$80097dc0$@rainier66.com> <003801d905e5$967303f0$c3590bd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000e01d90611$7bec3a70$73c4af50$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...The researchers would richly deserve this of course, but with this accelerated technology-assisted evolution, perhaps a mild variant of covid can be developed with out actually accidentally unleashing the whole planet shattering pandemic, slaying millions and such unpleasantness as that...spike Eh, I (partially) repent of having written that flight of fancy in such a way to implicate the researchers, who were likely just doing what their boss demanded. That business about selling the dead bats with the more deadly strain we called the alpha variant of covid-19 was pure speculation. That we must do such horrifying things to beasts in a quest to discover medicines and therapies for our selfish species pains me. Wild beasts already have so many problems, and anything we do to further increase their suffering adds to the ethical burden we non-vegetarians already bear. We kinda deal with it by imagining cows peacefully grazing their way to adulthood, in full contentment until the day it all unexpectedly ends. Swine have it even better, so we can make ourselves believe farm beasts have a short but contented life which ends mercifully. Research beasts on the other hand... I would prefer to not ponder it too much. That accelerated evolution notion, the serial passage business, would cause bats to have the coronavirus continually for weeks if not months, presumably suffering the entire time. If there is any other way to get to the answers, it would be so preferable. Even knowing we cause them untold suffering, I know of no alternative means to study disease besides using living host creatures. I am so eager to load my consciousness onto silicon or some alternative substrate so I no longer need to slay and devour living things. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 14:46:24 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 08:46:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I get my garden seeds from Johnny's Selected Seeds, a company started 40 years ago by a R. Johnston. When he retired it became employee owned. It is still a fine business. I think it would be instructive to check out employee-owned companies and see how they compare in wages etc. to regular companies. bill w On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 9:09 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well again I don't think the Chinese people hate Marxism, it's a hard > thing to hate if you understand it because it's true--workers should get > fair pay for the value of the work they do. What they hate is > authoritarianism. > > You say factory working is diminished but I'm pretty sure the majority of > the world does that kind of work. And even in America, minimum wage work > for corporations is very, very widespread, even if a few factories are > partially automated... > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2022, 7:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review >> >> >> >> >?That's another thing that kinda bugged me, Spike--the way you were >> talking about Marxism made it seem like you were conflating it with >> authoritarianism? >> >> >> >> No worries Will. Given sufficiently independent Marxist governments, >> most with populations of one to five, the scenario you describe works just >> fine and always have. >> >> >> >> Times have changed, a lot. Now we no longer rely on human labor to >> manufacture stuff very much. A really good example is the Tesla factory up >> the street. There are workers there, but most of them are overseeing >> manufacturing equipment. It is nothing like the Ford factory that was >> there 30 years ago where lines of actual biological units made and >> assembled the cars. Henry Ford was such a primitive savage that way. >> >> >> >> Now our biological units are mostly from India and write software to >> control the construction of the cars. They have the option of owning the >> tools, by buying up stock in their own company. Those who followed that >> practice in Tesla are in great shape now. They generally have a very low >> collective opinion of Marxism, while simultaneously practicing it in their >> homes, to eaching and from eaching with their spouses and children. >> >> >> >> Plenty of workers today are software developers, in which case they >> already do own the tools. More workers are moving toward that professional >> paradigm all the time. That whole gathering in a factory renting the >> corporation?s tools business that vexed Marx (and his four brothers) is >> really much diminished. >> >> >> >> I can easily foresee that Marxism (and every variant of communism) >> steadily losing popularity, considering the current experience in China, >> where the population would prefer to not have the exits welded shut because >> of covid. This expediency for slowing the pandemic carries its own risks, >> such as making emergency egress physically impossible when the damn >> building catches fire. The Chinese proletariat disapprove of this as much >> as we would. The big difference of course is that our asses are heavily >> armed and we intend to stay that way, lest we suffer the same fate as the >> Chinese. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 14:52:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 06:52:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > >>.... YyyyyyaNo. With all that, with the smoking gun, with the video...Oy vey. > > _______________________________________________ >...Basically correct, but it is a bit more complicated than that. ... >...There is no easy solution to this problem. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, we know where you were going with that. Do let me assure you sir, we have a similar problem over here. One of them you may have heard about: four young people slain with a knife in Idaho by an unknown assailant who is still loose. The news people ran wild, highly profitable lede stories on it ever since. Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, doesn't even make the news ever. That bleeds too, but it isn't news. That sort of thing just happens there far too frequently, and it can't really be used to sell the notion of gun control because the assailant isn't one of those mysterious fictional "militia" types and they don't use the legendary AR-15. Tragedies like that might be several times a year on average. We all know what it is, whether or not we want to talk about it. So... we talk about something safe, such as the four students in Idaho, and ja we know what it looks like to people outside our society. Our current cultural war is about more than that however. Control of the narrative is everything. The mainstream news people held that power for as long as most of society could read, but now that power structure is threatened and they don't like it a damn bit. It really isn't about any left vs right, that part is an illusion. It is really all about professional news coverage and sales. It's all about who controls the narrative and to what ends. I went on and on about hurricanes a coupla months ago. The 2022 hurricane season ended yesterday, so the numbers are in. It was about a 28th percentile year, depending on which metric one uses, which was a bitter disappointment to the news industry. Nothing sells news like storms, and hurricanes are nature's gift to that biz. They move slowly, they have a partially predictable path but when one is coming, the proles will study the news (and the advertisers jump in line like fans for a Simon and Garfunkel reunion concert.) Nature dealt an unusual cluster of six high storm seasons in a row: Oh boy, a trend! But this one was mild, doh! The 2022 storm season partially redeemed itself by coincidentally peaking right when it hit land in Florida, even better in an expensive area, causing all that photogenic destruction, allowing so many weary boat and plane owners to get out of their financial burdens, collect all that yummy insurance without that distasteful sales business. Oh how they rejoiced. BillK, watch the Twitter debate. That one is important. Those who would control the public narrative will try to crash that company any way they can, for it decentralizes and distributes control of the narrative. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 14:59:43 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 06:59:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004901d9065e$b6c81a40$24584ec0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review >?I get my garden seeds from Johnny's Selected Seeds, a company started 40 years ago by a R. Johnston. When he retired it became employee owned. It is still a fine business. I think it would be instructive to check out employee-owned companies and see how they compare in wages etc. to regular companies. bill w Billw, you and I are old enough to know the story, me lad. In communism, the workers own the factories and the government owns both. But in capitalism, the workers have the option to own the factories with stock investment, and the press owns the government. That explains why we are seeing such a bitter dispute over Twitter, for the outcome of that culture war determines who owns the press and by extension who owns the government. May the good guys win. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 15:01:45 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 09:01:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, doesn't even make the news ever. spike And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out of prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that killings other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no ideological agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > > > > >>.... YyyyyyaNo. With all that, with the smoking gun, with the > video...Oy vey. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > >...Basically correct, but it is a bit more complicated than that. > ... > >...There is no easy solution to this problem. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > BillK, we know where you were going with that. Do let me assure you sir, > we have a similar problem over here. One of them you may have heard about: > four young people slain with a knife in Idaho by an unknown assailant who > is still loose. The news people ran wild, highly profitable lede stories > on it ever since. Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of > Chicago, doesn't even make the news ever. That bleeds too, but it isn't > news. That sort of thing just happens there far too frequently, and it > can't really be used to sell the notion of gun control because the > assailant isn't one of those mysterious fictional "militia" types and they > don't use the legendary AR-15. Tragedies like that might be several times > a year on average. We all know what it is, whether or not we want to talk > about it. So... we talk about something safe, such as the four students in > Idaho, and ja we know what it looks like to people outside our society. > > Our current cultural war is about more than that however. Control of the > narrative is everything. The mainstream news people held that power for as > long as most of society could read, but now that power structure is > threatened and they don't like it a damn bit. It really isn't about any > left vs right, that part is an illusion. It is really all about > professional news coverage and sales. It's all about who controls the > narrative and to what ends. > > I went on and on about hurricanes a coupla months ago. The 2022 hurricane > season ended yesterday, so the numbers are in. It was about a 28th > percentile year, depending on which metric one uses, which was a bitter > disappointment to the news industry. Nothing sells news like storms, and > hurricanes are nature's gift to that biz. They move slowly, they have a > partially predictable path but when one is coming, the proles will study > the news (and the advertisers jump in line like fans for a Simon and > Garfunkel reunion concert.) Nature dealt an unusual cluster of six high > storm seasons in a row: Oh boy, a trend! But this one was mild, doh! > > The 2022 storm season partially redeemed itself by coincidentally peaking > right when it hit land in Florida, even better in an expensive area, > causing all that photogenic destruction, allowing so many weary boat and > plane owners to get out of their financial burdens, collect all that yummy > insurance without that distasteful sales business. Oh how they rejoiced. > > BillK, watch the Twitter debate. That one is important. Those who would > control the public narrative will try to crash that company any way they > can, for it decentralizes and distributes control of the narrative. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 15:07:37 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 09:07:37 -0600 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <004901d9065e$b6c81a40$24584ec0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <004901d9065e$b6c81a40$24584ec0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It seems fairly clear that I do not understand just what Twitter is. IM is all I know about.bill w On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 9:02 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: > book review > > > > >?I get my garden seeds from Johnny's Selected Seeds, a company > started 40 years ago by a R. Johnston. When he retired it became employee > owned. It is still a fine business. I think it would be instructive to > check out employee-owned companies and see how they compare in wages etc. > to regular companies. bill w > > > > > > > > Billw, you and I are old enough to know the story, me lad. > > > > In communism, the workers own the factories and the government owns both. > > > > But in capitalism, the workers have the option to own the factories with > stock investment, and the press owns the government. > > > > That explains why we are seeing such a bitter dispute over Twitter, for > the outcome of that culture war determines who owns the press and by > extension who owns the government. May the good guys win. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 15:17:16 2022 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 10:17:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech Message-ID: Musk/Twitter suspended Ye for posting a pic with a star of David and a swastika. They've also apparently suspended people critical of Musk. And the ex-president's account was only reactivated after a poll was in favor of it. Not exactly shining examples of freedom of speech, but good examples of "power corrupts". -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 15:54:47 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 07:54:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech >?Musk/Twitter suspended Ye for posting a pic with a star of David and a swastika. They've also apparently suspended people critical of Musk. And the ex-president's account was only reactivated after a poll was in favor of it. >?Not exactly shining examples of freedom of speech, but good examples of "power corrupts". -Dave Sure, but Twitter is a private company. Musk owns that. He can do whatever he wants. Musk has no political office, and so he has no ?power.? He can?t arrest anyone or stop anyone from exercising their right to free speech. Fun question however: are we ready to admit that money and political power have become indistinguishable? How did that happen please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 16:12:15 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 11:12:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] possible explanation of what happened In-Reply-To: <000e01d90611$7bec3a70$73c4af50$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <008701d904ec$d5587f40$80097dc0$@rainier66.com> <003801d905e5$967303f0$c3590bd0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90611$7bec3a70$73c4af50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <869ADBD7-DAD9-45B7-B463-C4E16718C1C0@gmail.com> Animals will kill and mutilate each other for all time, even with humans out of the picture. > On Dec 2, 2022, at 12:46 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: spike at rainier66.com > ... > >> ...The researchers would richly deserve this of course, but with this accelerated technology-assisted evolution, perhaps a mild variant of covid can be developed with out actually accidentally unleashing the whole planet shattering pandemic, slaying millions and such unpleasantness as that...spike > > > > Eh, I (partially) repent of having written that flight of fancy in such a way to implicate the researchers, who were likely just doing what their boss demanded. That business about selling the dead bats with the more deadly strain we called the alpha variant of covid-19 was pure speculation. > > That we must do such horrifying things to beasts in a quest to discover medicines and therapies for our selfish species pains me. Wild beasts already have so many problems, and anything we do to further increase their suffering adds to the ethical burden we non-vegetarians already bear. We kinda deal with it by imagining cows peacefully grazing their way to adulthood, in full contentment until the day it all unexpectedly ends. Swine have it even better, so we can make ourselves believe farm beasts have a short but contented life which ends mercifully. > > Research beasts on the other hand... I would prefer to not ponder it too much. That accelerated evolution notion, the serial passage business, would cause bats to have the coronavirus continually for weeks if not months, presumably suffering the entire time. If there is any other way to get to the answers, it would be so preferable. Even knowing we cause them untold suffering, I know of no alternative means to study disease besides using living host creatures. > > I am so eager to load my consciousness onto silicon or some alternative substrate so I no longer need to slay and devour living things. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 16:29:38 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 10:29:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Fun question however: are we ready to admit that money and political power have become indistinguishable? How did that happen please? spike An assortment of tribes decided to band to fight against outside foes (like the Persians). A king was elected. The first in history. Power. Now tell me: what king with the power to amass some money and goods and women would pass up the chance? The king has the military behind him (he pays them off with some of his excess) and that is the way it is with all authoritarian regimes. I suspect this is the way it was many thousands of years ago. Whyever would those in power give up the life style? bill w On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 9:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave S via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Twitter and free speech > > > > >?Musk/Twitter suspended Ye for posting a pic with a star of David and a > swastika. They've also apparently suspended people critical of Musk. And > the ex-president's account was only reactivated after a poll was in favor > of it. > > > > >?Not exactly shining examples of freedom of speech, but good examples of > "power corrupts". > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, but Twitter is a private company. Musk owns that. He can do > whatever he wants. Musk has no political office, and so he has no > ?power.? He can?t arrest anyone or stop anyone from exercising their right > to free speech. > > > > Fun question however: are we ready to admit that money and political > power have become indistinguishable? How did that happen please? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 16:33:43 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 10:33:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] possible explanation of what happened In-Reply-To: <869ADBD7-DAD9-45B7-B463-C4E16718C1C0@gmail.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <008701d904ec$d5587f40$80097dc0$@rainier66.com> <003801d905e5$967303f0$c3590bd0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90611$7bec3a70$73c4af50$@rainier66.com> <869ADBD7-DAD9-45B7-B463-C4E16718C1C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: The way I look at it, the animals in zoos and labs are paying the price for their cousins in their natural settings. We love the animals we see in the zoo and give money to protect their habitats in the wild, etc. Harder to make a case for lab animals, but many are bred so that neither they nor their offspring could survive in the wild - same true for the animals we eat. bill w On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 10:14 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Animals will kill and mutilate each other for all time, even with humans > out of the picture. > > > On Dec 2, 2022, at 12:46 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spike at rainier66.com > > ... > > > >> ...The researchers would richly deserve this of course, but with this > accelerated technology-assisted evolution, perhaps a mild variant of covid > can be developed with out actually accidentally unleashing the whole planet > shattering pandemic, slaying millions and such unpleasantness as > that...spike > > > > > > > > Eh, I (partially) repent of having written that flight of fancy in such > a way to implicate the researchers, who were likely just doing what their > boss demanded. That business about selling the dead bats with the more > deadly strain we called the alpha variant of covid-19 was pure speculation. > > > > That we must do such horrifying things to beasts in a quest to discover > medicines and therapies for our selfish species pains me. Wild beasts > already have so many problems, and anything we do to further increase their > suffering adds to the ethical burden we non-vegetarians already bear. We > kinda deal with it by imagining cows peacefully grazing their way to > adulthood, in full contentment until the day it all unexpectedly ends. > Swine have it even better, so we can make ourselves believe farm beasts > have a short but contented life which ends mercifully. > > > > Research beasts on the other hand... I would prefer to not ponder it too > much. That accelerated evolution notion, the serial passage business, > would cause bats to have the coronavirus continually for weeks if not > months, presumably suffering the entire time. If there is any other way to > get to the answers, it would be so preferable. Even knowing we cause them > untold suffering, I know of no alternative means to study disease besides > using living host creatures. > > > > I am so eager to load my consciousness onto silicon or some alternative > substrate so I no longer need to slay and devour living things. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 16:46:12 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 11:46:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Putting aside the current Ye discussion, the US government has weaponized "private" social media companies who willingly do their bidding in terms of censorship, account removals, and putting their thumb on the scale in regard to elections. We're now in a very dangerous situation in terms of preserving our Constitutional rights because the current administration is using private companies as conduits to circumvent the 1st and 2nd amendments. On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 10:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave S via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Twitter and free speech > > > > >?Musk/Twitter suspended Ye for posting a pic with a star of David and a > swastika. They've also apparently suspended people critical of Musk. And > the ex-president's account was only reactivated after a poll was in favor > of it. > > > > >?Not exactly shining examples of freedom of speech, but good examples of > "power corrupts". > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, but Twitter is a private company. Musk owns that. He can do > whatever he wants. Musk has no political office, and so he has no > ?power.? He can?t arrest anyone or stop anyone from exercising their right > to free speech. > > > > Fun question however: are we ready to admit that money and political > power have become indistinguishable? How did that happen please? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 16:58:23 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 10:58:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 10:48 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Putting aside the current Ye discussion, the US government has weaponized > "private" social media companies who willingly do their bidding in terms of > censorship, account removals, and putting their thumb on the scale in > regard to elections. > > We're now in a very dangerous situation in terms of preserving our > Constitutional rights because the current administration is using private > companies as conduits to circumvent the 1st and 2nd amendments. > > Is this anything new? bill w > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 10:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave S via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* [ExI] Twitter and free speech >> >> >> >> >?Musk/Twitter suspended Ye for posting a pic with a star of David and a >> swastika. They've also apparently suspended people critical of Musk. And >> the ex-president's account was only reactivated after a poll was in favor >> of it. >> >> >> >> >?Not exactly shining examples of freedom of speech, but good examples of >> "power corrupts". >> >> >> >> -Dave >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sure, but Twitter is a private company. Musk owns that. He can do >> whatever he wants. Musk has no political office, and so he has no >> ?power.? He can?t arrest anyone or stop anyone from exercising their right >> to free speech. >> >> >> >> Fun question however: are we ready to admit that money and political >> power have become indistinguishable? How did that happen please? >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 17:00:48 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 12:00:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: IMO, yes, especially to the degree it is happening now. On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 11:59 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 10:48 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Putting aside the current Ye discussion, the US government has weaponized >> "private" social media companies who willingly do their bidding in terms of >> censorship, account removals, and putting their thumb on the scale in >> regard to elections. >> >> We're now in a very dangerous situation in terms of preserving our >> Constitutional rights because the current administration is using private >> companies as conduits to circumvent the 1st and 2nd amendments. >> >> Is this anything new? bill w > >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 10:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave S via extropy-chat >>> *Subject:* [ExI] Twitter and free speech >>> >>> >>> >>> >?Musk/Twitter suspended Ye for posting a pic with a star of David and a >>> swastika. They've also apparently suspended people critical of Musk. And >>> the ex-president's account was only reactivated after a poll was in favor >>> of it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >?Not exactly shining examples of freedom of speech, but good examples >>> of "power corrupts". >>> >>> >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sure, but Twitter is a private company. Musk owns that. He can do >>> whatever he wants. Musk has no political office, and so he has no >>> ?power.? He can?t arrest anyone or stop anyone from exercising their right >>> to free speech. >>> >>> >>> >>> Fun question however: are we ready to admit that money and political >>> power have become indistinguishable? How did that happen please? >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 17:08:14 2022 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 10:08:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: T'was ever thus. Or did you imagine that Joseph Kennedy and Prescott Bush were good'ol American small-business owners. On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 8:56 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave S via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Twitter and free speech > > > > >?Musk/Twitter suspended Ye for posting a pic with a star of David and a > swastika. They've also apparently suspended people critical of Musk. And > the ex-president's account was only reactivated after a poll was in favor > of it. > > > > >?Not exactly shining examples of freedom of speech, but good examples of > "power corrupts". > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, but Twitter is a private company. Musk owns that. He can do > whatever he wants. Musk has no political office, and so he has no > ?power.? He can?t arrest anyone or stop anyone from exercising their right > to free speech. > > > > Fun question however: are we ready to admit that money and political > power have become indistinguishable? How did that happen please? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 17:42:18 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 12:42:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <004901d9065e$b6c81a40$24584ec0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <004901d9065e$b6c81a40$24584ec0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Again, communism doesn't require a government (anarcho-communism) and the governments you call communist are actually authoritarian capitalist (Russia, China). Idk why you are ignoring this point, it reminds me of the way John argues. You don't believe calling yourself a woman makes you a woman so why would you believe that China calling itself communist makes it communist? Everyone can see that it is not remotely communist anymore. Honestly I'm starting to think that it could ONLY work in an anarchist system. The government is just the biggest corporation in a state and any co-ownership they have of the means of production is effectively taking it away from the workers. On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: > book review > > > > >?I get my garden seeds from Johnny's Selected Seeds, a company > started 40 years ago by a R. Johnston. When he retired it became employee > owned. It is still a fine business. I think it would be instructive to > check out employee-owned companies and see how they compare in wages etc. > to regular companies. bill w > > > > > > > > Billw, you and I are old enough to know the story, me lad. > > > > In communism, the workers own the factories and the government owns both. > > > > But in capitalism, the workers have the option to own the factories with > stock investment, and the press owns the government. > > > > That explains why we are seeing such a bitter dispute over Twitter, for > the outcome of that culture war determines who owns the press and by > extension who owns the government. May the good guys win. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 17:49:47 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 09:49:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011801d90676$787aed90$6970c8b0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech >?T'was ever thus. Or did you imagine that Joseph Kennedy and Prescott Bush were good'ol American small-business owners? Darin Ja. Darin, political power and money have always been able to buy each other. We kinda sorta pretend otherwise, but consider all the career politicians that ended up rich somehow, even if they never actually had a job or ran a business. There are well-known and notorious ways around that inconvenient barrier to wealth. They can give ?speeches? for hundreds of thousands in ?speaker?s fees? or sell ?paintings? and that sorta thing. Of course political power can buy you money. But consider specifically the press. I heard a reference to FoxNews in this forum. I am familiar with it and consider it an interesting case. It is often considered politically right wing, but if you look at it, you realize it isn?t so much that as it is market-centric news. They seem to recognize and do news the way I would if I owned Fox: note which stories get the most and longest views, which makes them the most valuable, then write stories that are most like that. Result: we get a lot of horrific crime stories, a lot of political scandal stuff, some feels-good articles, some obvious nonsense, but the point is that the owner isn?t American so his focus isn?t on deciding what is ?true? or otherwise. Rather he sells what sells. Result: if we look at FoxNews, we are gazing into America?s mirror. We are seeing what we click on the most and the longest. Another result: FoxNews is the biggest by far. It is the profiable giant that everyone else wants to be, but to do that the others would need to do things the way Fox does. This they refuse to do. Result: they squabble among themselves over an ever-shrinking market, steadily approaching irrelevance, as Fox owns the news business. Apply that concept to Twitter. Musk recognizes that Twitter will eventually go out of business if it keeps the same business model that Jack Dorsey held: armies of expensive carbon units doing censorship to keep ?misinformation? off the platform, while losing 4 million bucks a day. Well hell, I am not a business lifeform, but even I can tell you that no business is going to survive losing 4 million bucks a day. Regardless of how you get there, a business must somehow sustain itself and of course it needs to make profit, the same as a news agency. Take it from FoxNews: compare its profit and loss statement to any of the other mainstream press agencies. People are what we are: we click on internet celebrities, funny dog videos, horrific crime stuff, political scandal, cute cat videos, sports stories, approximately in that order of popularity. So? Fox and now Twitter, being businesses, will give us what we want. Fox is a mirror, for it reflects us and our taste. Do gaze into it occasionally. For some odd reason? some politicians are apoplectic about Musk insisting that Twitter must not only reach breakeven, it needs to pay him some big dividends on that 44 billion clams he dropped into it. Well imagine that! He?s a businessman, not a politician. That?s why he is a skerjillionaire, not a political office holder. Politicians are jealous his power. To quote a famous politician: ?I want that money.? They sure do. For Twitter to make money requires a lot of changes, starting out with laying off most of the salaries there. Well, ja, how would any of us have concluded to the contrary or done anything differently please? Anyone? 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URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 18:05:57 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 10:05:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <004901d9065e$b6c81a40$24584ec0$@rainier66.c om> Message-ID: <014001d90678$bab61e80$30225b80$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review >?Again, communism doesn't require a government (anarcho-communism) and the governments you call communist are actually authoritarian capitalist (Russia, China). Idk why you are ignoring this point, it reminds me of the way John argues? Ja, this is a variant on the ?true communism has never been tried? theme. Well OK, in my mind true communism always results in authoritarian capitalism, whether or not that was the intent. I can further speculate that outside of families, true communism will never be tried. >?You don't believe calling yourself a woman makes you a woman? Ja, I would never believe myself if I even tried that. I could never pull it over on me. I could never even keep a straight face telling it to myself in the mirror. I would bust out laughing and tell me: spike, look down there, you silly ass! And that sorta thing. Will, if others can make that happen for them, well OK then, it?s their call, but my brain just doesn?t work that way, never has. >?so why would you believe that China calling itself communist makes it communist? Everyone can see that it is not remotely communist anymore? I see hope for China. The 1.4 billion little commies are getting more and more pissed at the big commie up top, with the riots and such. It will be extremely interesting if they continue to grow in outrage and power, to continue to use their idealized view of the USA as an example of what they want to be, then eventually just go ahead and storm the presidential palace at enormous loss of life, slay the big commie up top, adopt something analogous to the US constitution along with rigorous first, second and fifth amendment rights. I don?t seriously predict it will turn out that way, but I hope does. Estimate 20% chance. I am cheering wildly for the 1.4 billion little commies yearning to be anarcho capitalist. I think they would be good at it: China could become a most formidable trade competitor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 18:31:29 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 13:31:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, doesn't > even make the news ever. spike > > And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out of > prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that killings > other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no ideological > agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w > You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that irritates you... then you make this commentary that has no other quality than to value signal your racism? Next time you think to post such, don't. There, one of us said it. If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of etiquette, you may assume we're all in agreement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 18:56:36 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 13:56:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >From what I have gathered, WFW William is one of those 'southern boomer' liberals whose heart seeks mostly in the right place but also says things like 'blacks' and generally doesn't know he is being implicitly or explicitly racist or racist-adjacent some of the time. I try to remind myself that much of this list is in the 60-80 age bracket. It comes with the territory I guess. I think he means to just point to the fact that intra-group murder rates are super high for poor black ghettoized city dwellers and that nobody seems to care, and that that is sad and fucked up, but the language is all bungled. WFW, correct me if I'm wrong. On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:33 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, doesn't >> even make the news ever. spike >> >> And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out of >> prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that killings >> other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no ideological >> agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w >> > > You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that irritates you... > then you make this commentary that has no other quality than to value > signal your racism? > > Next time you think to post such, don't. > > There, one of us said it. > > If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of etiquette, you > may assume we're all in agreement. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 19:02:49 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 14:02:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <014001d90678$bab61e80$30225b80$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <014001d90678$bab61e80$30225b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Whatever a woman is or what people want to call themselves, it is simply impossible to become what we have used the word woman to describe--XX, womb, ovaries, body and mind long-term feminized by hormones from birth, menstruation, birth--unless you start out that way. It would do everyone good to accept this. Maybe we will have brain swaps in the future or be able to change all our chromosomes but we don't now and that cognitive dissonance is causing a lot of pointless strife and annoyance, imo. People are all crazy about words and pronouns when the physical facts are hyper apparent. I think this forced skewing of language is a dangerous, fascist thing. I hope people come around to that. China will have a revolution 100%. My guess had always been a botched or expensive Taiwan invasion and war of attrition leads to revolts on the periphery (west, north, south) which the army is stretched to thin to put down. It's coming sooner rather than later, imo On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: > book review > > > > >?Again, communism doesn't require a government (anarcho-communism) and > the governments you call communist are actually authoritarian capitalist > (Russia, China). Idk why you are ignoring this point, it reminds me of the > way John argues? > > > > Ja, this is a variant on the ?true communism has never been tried? theme. > Well OK, in my mind true communism always results in authoritarian > capitalism, whether or not that was the intent. I can further speculate > that outside of families, true communism will never be tried. > > > > > > >?You don't believe calling yourself a woman makes you a woman? > > > > Ja, I would never believe myself if I even tried that. I could never pull > it over on me. I could never even keep a straight face telling it to > myself in the mirror. I would bust out laughing and tell me: spike, look > down there, you silly ass! And that sorta thing. Will, if others can make > that happen for them, well OK then, it?s their call, but my brain just > doesn?t work that way, never has. > > > > >?so why would you believe that China calling itself communist makes it > communist? Everyone can see that it is not remotely communist anymore? > > > > I see hope for China. The 1.4 billion little commies are getting more and > more pissed at the big commie up top, with the riots and such. It will be > extremely interesting if they continue to grow in outrage and power, to > continue to use their idealized view of the USA as an example of what they > want to be, then eventually just go ahead and storm the presidential palace > at enormous loss of life, slay the big commie up top, adopt something > analogous to the US constitution along with rigorous first, second and > fifth amendment rights. > > > > I don?t seriously predict it will turn out that way, but I hope does. > Estimate 20% chance. I am cheering wildly for the 1.4 billion little > commies yearning to be anarcho capitalist. I think they would be good at > it: China could become a most formidable trade competitor. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 19:04:50 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 13:04:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I will admit to forgetting to use 'Blacks'. But you did it yourself Will. I do admit to some bias (NOT prejudice) against Blacks: I strongly condemn their morals, and I don't want to get any flak about welfare causing men to abandon their lovers and children. So if that makes me racist, to that extent I am racist I deal with a lot of Blacks, mostly working for me. I treat them like friends. I feed them, I let them in the house to use the bathroom, and so on - I'll bet not a lot of white people in the South go that far. bill w On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > From what I have gathered, WFW William is one of those 'southern boomer' > liberals whose heart seeks mostly in the right place but also says things > like 'blacks' and generally doesn't know he is being implicitly or > explicitly racist or racist-adjacent some of the time. > > I try to remind myself that much of this list is in the 60-80 age > bracket. It comes with the territory I guess. > > I think he means to just point to the fact that intra-group murder rates > are super high for poor black ghettoized city dwellers and that nobody > seems to care, and that that is sad and fucked up, but the language is all > bungled. > > WFW, correct me if I'm wrong. > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:33 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, doesn't >>> even make the news ever. spike >>> >>> And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out of >>> prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that killings >>> other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no ideological >>> agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w >>> >> >> You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that irritates >> you... then you make this commentary that has no other quality than to >> value signal your racism? >> >> Next time you think to post such, don't. >> >> There, one of us said it. >> >> If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of etiquette, you >> may assume we're all in agreement. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 20:23:57 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 12:23:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <014001d90678$bab61e80$30225b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The problem, as I understand it, is that the word "woman" has also been conflated into a bunch of social and cultural roles and expectations, which trans women wish to fill; likewise for "man" and trans men. Those who medically transition perceive these roles - at least, certain ones they identify with - as bound to their physical shape, thus their desire to change their shape to match their self-image. Whether or not their perception is correct is technically irrelevant, though they did not come to their conclusions without some evidence. See for instance the continued debate about whether to include women in the draft, and the until-a-few-years-ago ban on women in certain combat operations jobs, for two examples from the US military. There are plenty of other examples of either outright prohibitions or substantial favoritism against women or men; for instance, men have a harder time being a cute waitress. (Yes, there are some people for whom being able to serve in a position like that is an important part of their self identity. You are not them; they decide for themselves and their own bodies, based on their knowledge and values.) It's about what they think a woman is and a man is. It's never just about the presence or absence of breasts and a vagina. On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 11:05 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Whatever a woman is or what people want to call themselves, it is simply > impossible to become what we have used the word woman to describe--XX, > womb, ovaries, body and mind long-term feminized by hormones from birth, > menstruation, birth--unless you start out that way. It would do everyone > good to accept this. Maybe we will have brain swaps in the future or be > able to change all our chromosomes but we don't now and that cognitive > dissonance is causing a lot of pointless strife and annoyance, imo. People > are all crazy about words and pronouns when the physical facts are hyper > apparent. I think this forced skewing of language is a dangerous, fascist > thing. I hope people come around to that. > > China will have a revolution 100%. My guess had always been a botched or > expensive Taiwan invasion and war of attrition leads to revolts on the > periphery (west, north, south) which the army is stretched to thin to put > down. It's coming sooner rather than later, imo > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: >> book review >> >> >> >> >?Again, communism doesn't require a government (anarcho-communism) and >> the governments you call communist are actually authoritarian capitalist >> (Russia, China). Idk why you are ignoring this point, it reminds me of the >> way John argues? >> >> >> >> Ja, this is a variant on the ?true communism has never been tried? >> theme. Well OK, in my mind true communism always results in authoritarian >> capitalism, whether or not that was the intent. I can further speculate >> that outside of families, true communism will never be tried. >> >> >> >> >> >> >?You don't believe calling yourself a woman makes you a woman? >> >> >> >> Ja, I would never believe myself if I even tried that. I could never >> pull it over on me. I could never even keep a straight face telling it to >> myself in the mirror. I would bust out laughing and tell me: spike, look >> down there, you silly ass! And that sorta thing. Will, if others can make >> that happen for them, well OK then, it?s their call, but my brain just >> doesn?t work that way, never has. >> >> >> >> >?so why would you believe that China calling itself communist makes it >> communist? Everyone can see that it is not remotely communist anymore? >> >> >> >> I see hope for China. The 1.4 billion little commies are getting more >> and more pissed at the big commie up top, with the riots and such. It will >> be extremely interesting if they continue to grow in outrage and power, to >> continue to use their idealized view of the USA as an example of what they >> want to be, then eventually just go ahead and storm the presidential palace >> at enormous loss of life, slay the big commie up top, adopt something >> analogous to the US constitution along with rigorous first, second and >> fifth amendment rights. >> >> >> >> I don?t seriously predict it will turn out that way, but I hope does. >> Estimate 20% chance. I am cheering wildly for the 1.4 billion little >> commies yearning to be anarcho capitalist. I think they would be good at >> it: China could become a most formidable trade competitor. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 20:40:09 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 12:40:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <014001d90678$bab61e80$30225b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007501d9068e$45838470$d08a8d50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review >>? Ja, I would never believe myself if I even tried that. I could never pull it over on me. I could never even keep a straight face telling it to myself in the mirror. I would bust out laughing and tell me: spike, look down there, you silly ass!... I already know what I would do to myself. I would answer back ?What? Where? I don?t see anything, get me a magnifying glass?? We would laugh and laugh at each me. I am always screwing with myself, doing crap like that to me. I am forced to: no one else will laugh at my jokes. I do, but no one else, the old grumpy bears, all of them. They force me to be an autocomedian. Has its advantages: even if I offend me, I never cancel myself. >?Whatever a woman is ?--XX, womb, ovaries, body and mind long-term feminized ? I think you have the answer there Will: use the terms XX and XY for nearly all people. Those terms are completely unambiguous, verifiable with a microscope and so forth. No XYs can ever get pregnant, XXs generally can for part of their lives. We know there are cases where embryos can get opposite-lettered hormones, we know about surgeries and all that, but the chromosomes are what they are. The terms need not carry information with regard to appearance, gender preference, any of that. We know there are trisomy cases, the three survivable ones being XXX, XXY and XYY if I remember my high school biology, so even that system isn?t perfect but it is good. >?China will have a revolution 100%. My guess had always been a botched or expensive Taiwan invasion and war of attrition leads to revolts on the periphery (west, north, south) which the army is stretched to thin to put down. It's coming sooner rather than later, imo Ja agree. The Chinese people aren?t going to keep putting up with the crap forever. This really was foreseeable the minute they started getting cell phones and Twitter and TikTok and such. Authoritarianism requires control of information. Once they lose that iron fisted control of information, freedom breaks out everywhere, as it is struggling to do at Twitter now. But regarding Twitter: if you had skerjillions of dollars and you saw Twitter was losing 4 million bucks a day, and that it is an inherently valuable asset to American society and the world, so you really want to keep it, but to save it you really really need to find a way to make it at least break even? what would you do any differently from what Elon is doing right now please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 2 21:02:15 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 13:02:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would you do differently? was: RE: ... In-Reply-To: <007a01d9068e$462b3620$d281a260$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <014001d90678$bab61e80$30225b80$@rainier66.com> <007a01d9068e$462b3620$d281a260$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008c01d90691$5bb95f00$132c1d00$@rainier66.com> This discussion has morphed so many times, I really want to focus on this question that I posted earlier mixed with a bunch of other silliness. This part isn?t silly: >?But regarding Twitter: if you had skerjillions of dollars and you saw Twitter was losing 4 million bucks a day, and that it is an inherently valuable asset to American society and the world, so you really want to keep it, but to save it you really really need to find a way to make it at least break even? what would you do any differently from what Elon is doing right now please? I have thought of some ideas but none of them are very good. 1. Elon could have bought the company and left everything exactly as it was, then just ponied up the 4 million a day out of his own deep pockets. It doesn?t seem quite right, but he could have done that. 2. He could freeze all hiring and wage increases, then wait for attrition to do its magic. 3. He could be himself and let some of his employees get offended and quit. Some of them would say goofy quotable things like ?I refuse to work for a multibillionaire.? Someone else ?You already were when Jack owned the joint.? ?Oh, right. There is that. But that was different.? 4. He could charge big money for the verified blue checks, not 8 bucks a month but more like about 80. Other ideas? We woulda made such fine billionaires, fortune wasted such opportunity not smiling on us. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4806 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 21:16:29 2022 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 13:16:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <386BB7A6-065C-4912-9628-AAFA09C7F6B0@gmail.com> A little problem. I agree it?s a private company and he can do whatever he wants on it with regard to who stays and who goes, what?s allowed, etc. But that was no what he and his fans said. They told us this was the public square of our time and that the First Amendment should be the guiding principle. So, Musk is just another rich hypocrite. (And pointing out his hypocrisy doesn?t mean I would take away his right to still pretend he?s a free of speech champion on Twitter as he bans or not as he pleases.) Also, money has always always been convertible into political power and vice versa. It?s the height of na?vet? to believe it was ever any other way, especially in the long run. (In the short run, there are deviations but these correct in short order as either the more wealthy but less politically powerful figure out how to access political power ? or they lose their wealth.) Regards, Dan > On Dec 2, 2022, at 7:56 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > ?> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat > Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech > > >?Musk/Twitter suspended Ye for posting a pic with a star of David and a swastika. They've also apparently suspended people critical of Musk. And the ex-president's account was only reactivated after a poll was in favor of it. > > >?Not exactly shining examples of freedom of speech, but good examples of "power corrupts". > > -Dave > > > > > > Sure, but Twitter is a private company. Musk owns that. He can do whatever he wants. Musk has no political office, and so he has no ?power.? He can?t arrest anyone or stop anyone from exercising their right to free speech. > > Fun question however: are we ready to admit that money and political power have become indistinguishable? How did that happen please? > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 21:22:13 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 16:22:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Lol dude 'black' as an adjective is ok. 'Blacks' is not considered ok. You should say 'black people'. Just letting you know On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 2:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I will admit to forgetting to use 'Blacks'. But you did it yourself > Will. I do admit to some bias (NOT prejudice) against Blacks: I strongly > condemn their morals, and I don't want to get any flak about welfare > causing men to abandon their lovers and children. So if that makes me > racist, to that extent I am racist > > I deal with a lot of Blacks, mostly working for me. I treat them like > friends. I feed them, I let them in the house to use the bathroom, and so > on - I'll bet not a lot of white people in the South go that far. bill w > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> From what I have gathered, WFW William is one of those 'southern boomer' >> liberals whose heart seeks mostly in the right place but also says things >> like 'blacks' and generally doesn't know he is being implicitly or >> explicitly racist or racist-adjacent some of the time. >> >> I try to remind myself that much of this list is in the 60-80 age >> bracket. It comes with the territory I guess. >> >> I think he means to just point to the fact that intra-group murder rates >> are super high for poor black ghettoized city dwellers and that nobody >> seems to care, and that that is sad and fucked up, but the language is all >> bungled. >> >> WFW, correct me if I'm wrong. >> >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:33 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, >>>> doesn't even make the news ever. spike >>>> >>>> And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out of >>>> prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that killings >>>> other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no ideological >>>> agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w >>>> >>> >>> You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that irritates >>> you... then you make this commentary that has no other quality than to >>> value signal your racism? >>> >>> Next time you think to post such, don't. >>> >>> There, one of us said it. >>> >>> If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of etiquette, >>> you may assume we're all in agreement. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 21:24:43 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 16:24:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Also whose morals are you referring to? I think you are talking about poor people in general. The color of your skin doesn't change your morals or behavior. Your economic and living situation does. On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:22 PM Will Steinberg wrote: > Lol dude 'black' as an adjective is ok. 'Blacks' is not considered ok. > You should say 'black people'. Just letting you know > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 2:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I will admit to forgetting to use 'Blacks'. But you did it yourself >> Will. I do admit to some bias (NOT prejudice) against Blacks: I strongly >> condemn their morals, and I don't want to get any flak about welfare >> causing men to abandon their lovers and children. So if that makes me >> racist, to that extent I am racist >> >> I deal with a lot of Blacks, mostly working for me. I treat them like >> friends. I feed them, I let them in the house to use the bathroom, and so >> on - I'll bet not a lot of white people in the South go that far. bill w >> >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> From what I have gathered, WFW William is one of those 'southern boomer' >>> liberals whose heart seeks mostly in the right place but also says things >>> like 'blacks' and generally doesn't know he is being implicitly or >>> explicitly racist or racist-adjacent some of the time. >>> >>> I try to remind myself that much of this list is in the 60-80 age >>> bracket. It comes with the territory I guess. >>> >>> I think he means to just point to the fact that intra-group murder rates >>> are super high for poor black ghettoized city dwellers and that nobody >>> seems to care, and that that is sad and fucked up, but the language is all >>> bungled. >>> >>> WFW, correct me if I'm wrong. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:33 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, >>>>> doesn't even make the news ever. spike >>>>> >>>>> And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out of >>>>> prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that killings >>>>> other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no ideological >>>>> agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w >>>>> >>>> >>>> You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that irritates >>>> you... then you make this commentary that has no other quality than to >>>> value signal your racism? >>>> >>>> Next time you think to post such, don't. >>>> >>>> There, one of us said it. >>>> >>>> If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of etiquette, >>>> you may assume we're all in agreement. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 21:41:42 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 15:41:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <386BB7A6-065C-4912-9628-AAFA09C7F6B0@gmail.com> References: <009201d90666$67ec23a0$37c46ae0$@rainier66.com> <386BB7A6-065C-4912-9628-AAFA09C7F6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: The men who created this country were rich. bill w On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 3:18 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A little problem. I agree it?s a private company and he can do whatever he > wants on it with regard to who stays and who goes, what?s allowed, etc. But > that was no what he and his fans said. They told us this was the public > square of our time and that the First Amendment should be the guiding > principle. So, Musk is just another rich hypocrite. (And pointing out his > hypocrisy doesn?t mean I would take away his right to still pretend he?s a > free of speech champion on Twitter as he bans or not as he pleases.) > > Also, money has always always been convertible into political power and > vice versa. It?s the height of na?vet? to believe it was ever any other > way, especially in the long run. (In the short run, there are deviations > but these correct in short order as either the more wealthy but less > politically powerful figure out how to access political power ? or they > lose their wealth.) > > Regards, > > Dan > > On Dec 2, 2022, at 7:56 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave S via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Twitter and free speech > > > > >?Musk/Twitter suspended Ye for posting a pic with a star of David and a > swastika. They've also apparently suspended people critical of Musk. And > the ex-president's account was only reactivated after a poll was in favor > of it. > > > > >?Not exactly shining examples of freedom of speech, but good examples of > "power corrupts". > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, but Twitter is a private company. Musk owns that. He can do > whatever he wants. Musk has no political office, and so he has no > ?power.? He can?t arrest anyone or stop anyone from exercising their right > to free speech. > > > > Fun question however: are we ready to admit that money and political > power have become indistinguishable? How did that happen please? > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 21:51:17 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 15:51:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 3:30 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Also whose morals are you referring to? I think you are talking about > poor people in general. The color of your skin doesn't change your morals > or behavior. Your economic and living situation does. > Will, would you like to take a look at the statistics on unwed mothers, often very young, abortions? Then tell me race does not matter. Prostitution beginning at age nine or so is rampant. Look at the statistics. I have known about black prostitution since the 50s, working with black men. "Oh yeah, I am going to buy me something from her this weekend They'll all do it, even the married ones." Children tell. Children tell parents about what other children brag about on the playground, or even see. It was a significantpart of white flight to suburbs and creating all white schools. I wish you were right, Will, and that skin color doesn't matter. But we are talking about different cultures here, and sexual mores are different and have been for a long time. Ask a sociologist. These things don't make the news for obvious reasons. bill w Blacks - that is what I read they wanted - capitalization. Now it's back to blacks? Will someone please take charge and tell me what's PC? bill w > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:22 PM Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> Lol dude 'black' as an adjective is ok. 'Blacks' is not considered ok. >> You should say 'black people'. Just letting you know >> >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 2:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I will admit to forgetting to use 'Blacks'. But you did it yourself >>> Will. I do admit to some bias (NOT prejudice) against Blacks: I strongly >>> condemn their morals, and I don't want to get any flak about welfare >>> causing men to abandon their lovers and children. So if that makes me >>> racist, to that extent I am racist >>> >>> I deal with a lot of Blacks, mostly working for me. I treat them like >>> friends. I feed them, I let them in the house to use the bathroom, and so >>> on - I'll bet not a lot of white people in the South go that far. bill w >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> From what I have gathered, WFW William is one of those 'southern >>>> boomer' liberals whose heart seeks mostly in the right place but also says >>>> things like 'blacks' and generally doesn't know he is being implicitly or >>>> explicitly racist or racist-adjacent some of the time. >>>> >>>> I try to remind myself that much of this list is in the 60-80 age >>>> bracket. It comes with the territory I guess. >>>> >>>> I think he means to just point to the fact that intra-group murder >>>> rates are super high for poor black ghettoized city dwellers and that >>>> nobody seems to care, and that that is sad and fucked up, but the language >>>> is all bungled. >>>> >>>> WFW, correct me if I'm wrong. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:33 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, >>>>>> doesn't even make the news ever. spike >>>>>> >>>>>> And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out of >>>>>> prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that killings >>>>>> other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no ideological >>>>>> agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that irritates >>>>> you... then you make this commentary that has no other quality than to >>>>> value signal your racism? >>>>> >>>>> Next time you think to post such, don't. >>>>> >>>>> There, one of us said it. >>>>> >>>>> If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of etiquette, >>>>> you may assume we're all in agreement. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 22:34:17 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 17:34:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Jeez Mr. Crow, you'd think someone on a science list would know what omitted variable bias is... Also look I know you're like 80 or something but I don't think it is hard to understand what I said. Black as an adjective is fine, black as a noun is not. Should I say it a third time or do you get it now On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 3:30 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Also whose morals are you referring to? I think you are talking about >> poor people in general. The color of your skin doesn't change your morals >> or behavior. Your economic and living situation does. >> > > Will, would you like to take a look at the statistics on unwed mothers, > often very young, abortions? Then tell me race does not matter. > > Prostitution beginning at age nine or so is rampant. Look at the > statistics. I have known about black prostitution since the 50s, working > with black men. "Oh yeah, I am going to buy me something from her this > weekend They'll all do it, even the married ones." > Children tell. Children tell parents about what other children brag about > on the playground, or even see. It was a significantpart of white flight > to suburbs and creating all white schools. > > I wish you were right, Will, and that skin color doesn't matter. But we > are talking about different cultures here, and sexual mores are different > and have been for a long time. Ask a sociologist. These things don't make > the news for obvious reasons. bill w > > Blacks - that is what I read they wanted - capitalization. Now it's back > to blacks? Will someone please take charge and tell me what's PC? bill w > >> >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:22 PM Will Steinberg >> wrote: >> >>> Lol dude 'black' as an adjective is ok. 'Blacks' is not considered ok. >>> You should say 'black people'. Just letting you know >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 2:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I will admit to forgetting to use 'Blacks'. But you did it yourself >>>> Will. I do admit to some bias (NOT prejudice) against Blacks: I strongly >>>> condemn their morals, and I don't want to get any flak about welfare >>>> causing men to abandon their lovers and children. So if that makes me >>>> racist, to that extent I am racist >>>> >>>> I deal with a lot of Blacks, mostly working for me. I treat them like >>>> friends. I feed them, I let them in the house to use the bathroom, and so >>>> on - I'll bet not a lot of white people in the South go that far. bill w >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From what I have gathered, WFW William is one of those 'southern >>>>> boomer' liberals whose heart seeks mostly in the right place but also says >>>>> things like 'blacks' and generally doesn't know he is being implicitly or >>>>> explicitly racist or racist-adjacent some of the time. >>>>> >>>>> I try to remind myself that much of this list is in the 60-80 age >>>>> bracket. It comes with the territory I guess. >>>>> >>>>> I think he means to just point to the fact that intra-group murder >>>>> rates are super high for poor black ghettoized city dwellers and that >>>>> nobody seems to care, and that that is sad and fucked up, but the language >>>>> is all bungled. >>>>> >>>>> WFW, correct me if I'm wrong. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:33 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, >>>>>>> doesn't even make the news ever. spike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out of >>>>>>> prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that killings >>>>>>> other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no ideological >>>>>>> agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that irritates >>>>>> you... then you make this commentary that has no other quality than to >>>>>> value signal your racism? >>>>>> >>>>>> Next time you think to post such, don't. >>>>>> >>>>>> There, one of us said it. >>>>>> >>>>>> If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of etiquette, >>>>>> you may assume we're all in agreement. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Dec 2 23:34:31 2022 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 15:34:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 02:02:33 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 18:02:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech And the folks who run it or any nation tend to be?law (or principle) of hierarchical coherence. ? Regards, Dan WOWsers! Elon Musk proves to be a man of his word. This would take a lotta courage: he just finished paying 44 biiiiiillllllion dollars for an asset, and first thing he had to is admit they improperly suppressed a valid story. 44 billion is a lotta lettuce. He said he would tell all, which I doubted. But he did it: https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1598834882414727168?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1598834882414727168%7Ctwgr%5E0b2a3247f8d9b4b89eb7fc57dcdbb85acfb0618a%7Ctwcon%5Es1_ &ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fmedia%2Felon-musk-reveals-twitter-suppressing-hunter-biden-story-2020 I keep going back to the same question: Had I (or anyone here) bought Twitter, when it was losing 4 million bucks a day, knowing that something radical had to be done or the whole enterprise goes bust, what would we do? Specifically what could we have done any differently from what Musk did and is doing? For starters a whole bunch of people would need to be cut from the payroll, a lot of them, 4 million dollars worth a day. How many is that? About 10k employees? Did they have that many to start with? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 03:00:18 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 19:00:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> From: Dave S > >? If I really wanted to promote free speech I'd do a lot differently than Musk? OK, how? >?If I were trying to cut losses, I'd obviously cut staff. But I'd also try not to drive away advertisers, the primary source of income. -Dave That?s what he did: cut staff and tried to not drive away advertisers. Some left anyway. So now what? The books still don?t balance. Looks to me like he will need to cut more staff, but not as much as the first round. I understand buying the company. It wasn?t just bleeding money, it was gushing it from every artery. Twitter would have folded soon had not Musk attempted a rescue (no guarantee even someone with his formidable business acumen and all around? elan? can pull out of this power dive. Dave you proposed doing something a lot differently, then suggested doing what Musk did, and what I would have had to do too. Other ideas? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 03:57:27 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 19:57:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002701d906cb$5c763a00$1562ae00$@rainier66.com> From: Dave S Subject: Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech Spike wrote: >>?Dave you proposed doing something a lot differently, then suggested doing what Musk did, and what I would have had to do too. Other ideas? >?Yes, ignoring the things I said that were different than what Musk has done, I had no other ideas. Like I said, I wouldn't have bought Twitter expecting a quick turnaround? I didn?t ignore that. Musk isn?t expecting a quick turnaround, nor is anyone else. Had we cut staff to make payroll meet revenue on the first day, we would know some advertisers would flee, necessitating a second round of cuts, followed by a third. That doesn?t sound like any quick turnaround to me. Musk bought that outfit knowing there was a risk it could not be saved at all. But if it is, it will make a ton of money and be a huge asset to the world. I am hoping he can make it go. >? I wouldn't claim I did it to promote free speech, then continue to suspend accounts not breaking laws and I'd reinstate accounts previously suspended that weren't breaking laws...without conducting polls, because free speech isn't a popularity contest. Advertisers are fleeing because they fear a shit show, and that's what Twitter has become. -Dave Dave, new members are coming to Twitter in droves. I am on there now. Haven?t posted anything. I don?t see anything that looks like a shit show. Were I an advertiser there, I would hang around and look for ways to sell my wares to the newly arrived faceless masses of money. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 04:03:43 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 20:03:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <002c01d906cb$5d77cb80$18676280$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> <002c01d906cb$5d77cb80$18676280$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003201d906cc$3cd09d20$b671d760$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >? Other ideas? I had one. Musk attempted the 8 dollar a month subscription fee for the blue check mark. That failed, but I thought of a variation that might work: charge 1 dollar a quarter for verification but it must be linked to a credit card in the name of the person who owns the account. Then the cost of the verification is not a problem for anyone (4 bucks a year, must be paid quarterly, no paying ahead) but? it is linked to a credit card, so it verifies there is a real person back there whose identity can be found if necessary. Twitter would say there is no human researching anything, no human judgment on the content of the messaging, only a credit card, active within the past three months verifying this identity. Wouldn?t that work? spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3494 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 04:12:26 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 20:12:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <009001d906bb$5085d760$f1918620$@rainier66.com> References: <009001d906bb$5085d760$f1918620$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003801d906cd$7477a240$5d66e6c0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >? He said he would tell all, which I doubted. But he did it: https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1598834882414727168?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw% 7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1598834882414727168%7Ctwgr%5E0b2a3247f8d9b4 b89eb7fc57dcdbb85acfb0618a%7Ctwcon%5Es1_ &ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fmedia%2Felon-musk-reveals-twitter-s uppressing-hunter-biden-story-2020 spike As a matter of local pride, Ro Khanna is our own representative. He was the one who seemed to have a vague clue of all of them that just maybe it was a really super bad idea to try to censor a major newspaper story. Ya think? Rep. Khanna?s comment is number 32 in the Taibbi thread. I wasn?t sure about the Ro-meister before I read his letter to the Twitter management, but now I am much more comfortable with him being our representative. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4062 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sat Dec 3 05:56:23 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 21:56:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This was shocking. > On Dec 2, 2022, at 6:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > ?> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech > > And the folks who run it or any nation tend to be?law (or principle) of hierarchical coherence. ? > Regards, Dan > > > > > WOWsers! Elon Musk proves to be a man of his word. This would take a lotta courage: he just finished paying 44 biiiiiillllllion dollars for an asset, and first thing he had to is admit they improperly suppressed a valid story. 44 billion is a lotta lettuce. He said he would tell all, which I doubted. But he did it: > > https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1598834882414727168?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1598834882414727168%7Ctwgr%5E0b2a3247f8d9b4b89eb7fc57dcdbb85acfb0618a%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fmedia%2Felon-musk-reveals-twitter-suppressing-hunter-biden-story-2020 > > I keep going back to the same question: Had I (or anyone here) bought Twitter, when it was losing 4 million bucks a day, knowing that something radical had to be done or the whole enterprise goes bust, what would we do? Specifically what could we have done any differently from what Musk did and is doing? For starters a whole bunch of people would need to be cut from the payroll, a lot of them, 4 million dollars worth a day. How many is that? About 10k employees? Did they have that many to start with? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 06:12:43 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 22:12:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ae01d906de$425ba930$c712fb90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Tara Maya via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech >?This was shocking? Tara Tara did you mean that bit about ??the First Amendment isn?t absolute?? in the Szabo letter? I too spewed my coffee when I got to that line. I don?t know if the description was an exaggeration. Mighta been. Hope so. In any case, Twitter improperly influenced an election, according to the guy who owns it. That thread proves it. spike On Dec 2, 2022, at 6:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? But he did it: https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1598834882414727168?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1598834882414727168%7Ctwgr%5E0b2a3247f8d9b4b89eb7fc57dcdbb85acfb0618a%7Ctwcon%5Es1_ &ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fmedia%2Felon-musk-reveals-twitter-suppressing-hunter-biden-story-2020 ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Sat Dec 3 02:52:39 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2022 02:52:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2022, 9:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >I keep going back to the same question: Had I (or anyone here) bought Twitter, when it was losing 4 million bucks a day, knowing that something radical had to be done or the whole enterprise goes bust, what would we do? I probably wouldn't have bought Twitter in the first place. If I did, I probably wouldn't have expected to turn it profitable overnight. If I really wanted to promote free speech I'd do a lot differently than Musk. >Specifically what could we have done any differently from what Musk did and is doing? If I were trying to cut losses, I'd obviously cut staff. But I'd also try not to drive away advertisers, the primary source of income. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Sat Dec 3 03:25:47 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2022 03:25:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike wrote: >Dave you proposed doing something a lot differently, then suggested doing what Musk did, and what I would have had to do too. Other ideas? Yes, ignoring the things I said that were different than what Musk has done, I had no other ideas. Like I said, I wouldn't have bought Twitter expecting a quick turnaround. I wouldn't claim I did it to promote free speech, then continue to suspend accounts not breaking laws and I'd reinstate accounts previously suspended that weren't breaking laws...without conducting polls, because free speech isn't a popularity contest. Advertisers are fleeing because they fear a shit show, and that's what Twitter has become. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 13:10:23 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 07:10:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> <002d01d9051f$b5092220$1f1b6660$@rainier66.com> <002101d9052d$5a9ce840$0fd6b8c0$@rainier66.com> <004301d9059c$364b93a0$a2e2bae0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d9065d$c10425e0$430c71a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Jeez, Will, I didn't know you made the rules for what Negroes are called. bill w On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 4:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Jeez Mr. Crow, you'd think someone on a science list would know what > omitted variable bias is... > > Also look I know you're like 80 or something but I don't think it is hard > to understand what I said. Black as an adjective is fine, black as a noun > is not. Should I say it a third time or do you get it now > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 3:30 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Also whose morals are you referring to? I think you are talking about >>> poor people in general. The color of your skin doesn't change your morals >>> or behavior. Your economic and living situation does. >>> >> >> Will, would you like to take a look at the statistics on unwed mothers, >> often very young, abortions? Then tell me race does not matter. >> >> Prostitution beginning at age nine or so is rampant. Look at the >> statistics. I have known about black prostitution since the 50s, working >> with black men. "Oh yeah, I am going to buy me something from her this >> weekend They'll all do it, even the married ones." >> Children tell. Children tell parents about what other children brag >> about on the playground, or even see. It was a significantpart of white >> flight to suburbs and creating all white schools. >> >> I wish you were right, Will, and that skin color doesn't matter. But we >> are talking about different cultures here, and sexual mores are different >> and have been for a long time. Ask a sociologist. These things don't make >> the news for obvious reasons. bill w >> >> Blacks - that is what I read they wanted - capitalization. Now it's back >> to blacks? Will someone please take charge and tell me what's PC? bill w >> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:22 PM Will Steinberg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Lol dude 'black' as an adjective is ok. 'Blacks' is not considered >>>> ok. You should say 'black people'. Just letting you know >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 2:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I will admit to forgetting to use 'Blacks'. But you did it yourself >>>>> Will. I do admit to some bias (NOT prejudice) against Blacks: I strongly >>>>> condemn their morals, and I don't want to get any flak about welfare >>>>> causing men to abandon their lovers and children. So if that makes me >>>>> racist, to that extent I am racist >>>>> >>>>> I deal with a lot of Blacks, mostly working for me. I treat them like >>>>> friends. I feed them, I let them in the house to use the bathroom, and so >>>>> on - I'll bet not a lot of white people in the South go that far. bill w >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From what I have gathered, WFW William is one of those 'southern >>>>>> boomer' liberals whose heart seeks mostly in the right place but also says >>>>>> things like 'blacks' and generally doesn't know he is being implicitly or >>>>>> explicitly racist or racist-adjacent some of the time. >>>>>> >>>>>> I try to remind myself that much of this list is in the 60-80 age >>>>>> bracket. It comes with the territory I guess. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think he means to just point to the fact that intra-group murder >>>>>> rates are super high for poor black ghettoized city dwellers and that >>>>>> nobody seems to care, and that that is sad and fucked up, but the language >>>>>> is all bungled. >>>>>> >>>>>> WFW, correct me if I'm wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:33 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, >>>>>>>> doesn't even make the news ever. spike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out >>>>>>>> of prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that >>>>>>>> killings other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no >>>>>>>> ideological agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that irritates >>>>>>> you... then you make this commentary that has no other quality than to >>>>>>> value signal your racism? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Next time you think to post such, don't. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There, one of us said it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of >>>>>>> etiquette, you may assume we're all in agreement. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 14:10:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 06:10:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301d90721$008a2930$019e7b90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Tara Maya via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech >?This was shocking? Ja Tara, regardless of one?s views, I think Musk was absolutely right on the money when the tweeted: This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead. Elon Musk, 28 Nov 2022 He?s right. He has already shown that when presented with a censorship dilemma, Twitter chose to err on the side of error. Freedom of speech is the foundation upon which the rest of human rights are built. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 14:24:43 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 08:24:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <005301d90721$008a2930$019e7b90$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <005301d90721$008a2930$019e7b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't know how you can talk about free speech and censorship in the same sentence. Hate speech, scatological words, etc. have to be free as well - no one saying they can't say those things. But exactly where is totally open free speech practiced? Why not have two Twitters: one censored, one totally open? Now we'll find out just what people really want to say. bill w On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 8:12 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Tara Maya via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech > > > > >?This was shocking? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ja Tara, regardless of one?s views, I think Musk was absolutely right on > the money when the tweeted: > > > > > > This is a battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost > even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead. Elon Musk, 28 Nov 2022 > > > > > > He?s right. He has already shown that when presented with a censorship > dilemma, Twitter chose to err on the side of error. Freedom of speech is > the foundation upon which the rest of human rights are built. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sat Dec 3 14:43:37 2022 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 09:43:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26141250-B863-495E-BEA7-EF78A2C4DF66@alumni.virginia.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Sat Dec 3 14:51:23 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2022 14:51:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <003201d906cc$3cd09d20$b671d760$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> <002c01d906cb$5d77cb80$18676280$@rainier66.com> <003201d906cc$3cd09d20$b671d760$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 11:03 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I had one. Musk attempted the 8 dollar a month subscription fee for the > blue check mark. That failed, Because it's basically meaningless. > but I thought of a variation that might work: > charge 1 dollar a quarter for verification but it must be linked to a credit > card in the name of the person who owns the account. Then the cost of the > verification is not a problem for anyone (4 bucks a year, must be paid > quarterly, no paying ahead) but? it is linked to a credit card, so it > verifies there is a real person back there whose identity can be found if > necessary. Twitter would say there is no human researching anything, no > human judgment on the content of the messaging, only a credit card, active > within the past three months verifying this identity. > > Wouldn?t that work? Sounds good to me, but I'd charge more. I don't know what went into verification pre-Musk, but my impression is that it was something they granted to public figures they deemed worthy. -Dave From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 15:15:04 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 07:15:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> <002c01d906cb$5d77cb80$18676280$@rainier66.com> <003201d906cc$3cd09d20$b671d760$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007801d9072a$064eaae0$12ec00a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, 3 December, 2022 6:51 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Dave S Subject: Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech On Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 11:03 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>... I had one. Musk attempted the 8 dollar a month subscription fee for > the blue check mark. That failed, >...Because it's basically meaningless... What I understood is that the blue check means it is a verifiable account, traceable to a person. The credit card solution would make it basically meaningful >> ...no human judgment on the content of the messaging, only a credit card, active within the past three months verifying this identity. Wouldn?t that work? >...Sounds good to me, but I'd charge more. I don't know what went into verification pre-Musk, but my impression is that it was something they granted to public figures they deemed worthy. -Dave _______________________________________________ Ja, but deeming worthy is subjective and subjective anything can never be made fair. So... remove subjectivity at every opportunity, replace it with openness and objectivity, enforce freedom with an iron fist, for that is the only kind of fist that suffices against those who would suppress freedom. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 15:31:00 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 07:31:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <005301d90721$008a2930$019e7b90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008901d9072c$3f89ef20$be9dcd60$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech ,,, >?Why not have two Twitters: one censored, one totally open? Now we'll find out just what people really want to say. bill w Excellent idea BillW, with a stipulation: Twitter will stay and be the open one. It can still be censored in a way, but generally by software, and everything must be open to all: have a list of links to tweets that are censored and a list of posts that are shadow banned, even while recognizing that publishing shadow banning is a logical contradiction. Of course that will lead to the banned-book paradox, where so many read a book because it was banned, wanting to know why. That?s the reason I read Catcher in the Rye rather than Peyton Place (bad example of course, because Catcher really is confusing garbage, whereas Peyton is delightfully titillatin?. But still.) For years, when people complained they were being unfairly censored and shadow banned and all that, they were told to go to hell, find another social medium, or another company, or start your own Twitter competitor, etc. So? OK we don?t actually need to compose anything new for those who are the loudest complainers now. Just post what they themselves told others a few years ago. Oh I love that. My friends, what a time to be living! This all makes a most joyful noise, like Christmas songs without all the religion and stuff, the kind of sound that those three rock stars sang of 60 years ago: the hammer of justice and the bell of freedom. Let it bang and let it ring, all over this land. spike spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 15:34:58 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 15:34:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <007801d9072a$064eaae0$12ec00a0$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> <002c01d906cb$5d77cb80$18676280$@rainier66.com> <003201d906cc$3cd09d20$b671d760$@rainier66.com> <007801d9072a$064eaae0$12ec00a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 at 15:17, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > What I understood is that the blue check means it is a verifiable account, traceable to a person. The credit card solution would make it basically meaningful > > Ja, but deeming worthy is subjective and subjective anything can never be made fair. So... remove subjectivity at every opportunity, replace it with openness and objectivity, enforce freedom with an iron fist, for that is the only kind of fist that suffices against those who would suppress freedom. > > spike > _______________________________________________ But many people cannot get a credit card, so they would not be able to be verified. e.g. under age 18 or 21, insufficient income, poor credit history, etc. Also, many people want or need to be anonymous for their own protection and to avoid all the intrusive tracking going on. Especially under authoritarian governments. BillK From snapbag at proton.me Sat Dec 3 16:23:41 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2022 16:23:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> <002c01d906cb$5d77cb80$18676280$@rainier66.com> <003201d906cc$3cd09d20$b671d760$@rainier66.com> <007801d9072a$064eaae0$12ec00a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, December 3rd, 2022 at 10:34 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > But many people cannot get a credit card, so they would not be able to > be verified. > e.g. under age 18 or 21, insufficient income, poor credit history, etc. Verification exists to enable users to distinguish between public figures and accounts spoofing them. The vast majority of public figures would have a credit card. > Also, many people want or need to be anonymous for their own > protection and to avoid all the intrusive tracking going on. > Especially under authoritarian governments. That doesn't apply to public figures. There are some public figures that either don't want to reveal their names (e.g., Banksy) and some who wouldn't be recognized by their legal name, but Twitter could verify those cases using some other mechanism. -Dave From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 16:49:11 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 16:49:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] China copying US by tracking phones of protestors Message-ID: China's Lockdown Protests Show Why You Shouldn't Let Government Weaken Encryption, Anonymity Too many Western governments want to follow in the footsteps of authoritarians when it comes to tech privacy. Scott Shackford | 11.29.2022 Quote: The Wall Street Journal reports that protesters are using encrypted apps like Telegram to organize, start group chats, and communicate about possible sites to organize and avoid the police. And Chinese police, in turn, are using whatever tools they have to try to track the protesters through social media and their phones. ------------------- Just as the US tracked phones on the Congress Jan 6 protest, China is now rounding up all the lockdown protestors via their phone location data. Probably all governments will be doing this. The public will quickly realise the dangers of phone and social media tracking. BillK From snapbag at proton.me Sat Dec 3 16:56:59 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2022 16:56:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] privacy from Premium True In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 1:07 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > As we all begin to understand how high tech companies are tracking everything we do online, privacy is more and more important to us. Privacy browser company DuckDuckGo has a new tool for Android phones that doesn?t simply block tracking in your browser, but for all apps using a clever technique: an ?internal? VPN. Then the app gives you a periodic report of what it blocked so you can see what?s been leaking all along. I?m trying it on my phone. [DuckDuckGo now lets all Android users block trackers in their apps](https://owowi.com/ddgo) at Bleeping Computer. bill w It's a nice idea, but if you use it, you lose the ability to use a real VPN. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 17:27:24 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 11:27:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <008901d9072c$3f89ef20$be9dcd60$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <005301d90721$008a2930$019e7b90$@rainier66.com> <008901d9072c$3f89ef20$be9dcd60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: OK - so have a warning "Here there be dragons." For the banned/censored stuff people really want to read. Peyton Place - just titillating - not a good book. I did read it and was not titillated. Maybe the worst book that everyone read. Catcher was, I think, an experimental book - sort of a stream of consciousness book. It succeeded spectacularly but is not a good book. bill w On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 9:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Twitter and free speech > > ,,, > > > > >?Why not have two Twitters: one censored, one totally open? Now we'll > find out just what people really want to say. bill w > > > > > > Excellent idea BillW, with a stipulation: Twitter will stay and be the > open one. It can still be censored in a way, but generally by software, > and everything must be open to all: have a list of links to tweets that are > censored and a list of posts that are shadow banned, even while recognizing > that publishing shadow banning is a logical contradiction. > > > > Of course that will lead to the banned-book paradox, where so many read a > book because it was banned, wanting to know why. That?s the reason I read > Catcher in the Rye rather than Peyton Place (bad example of course, because > Catcher really is confusing garbage, whereas Peyton is delightfully > titillatin?. But still.) > > > > For years, when people complained they were being unfairly censored and > shadow banned and all that, they were told to go to hell, find another > social medium, or another company, or start your own Twitter competitor, > etc. > > > > So? OK we don?t actually need to compose anything new for those who are > the loudest complainers now. Just post what they themselves told others a > few years ago. > > > > Oh I love that. My friends, what a time to be living! This all makes a > most joyful noise, like Christmas songs without all the religion and stuff, > the kind of sound that those three rock stars sang of 60 years ago: the > hammer of justice and the bell of freedom. Let it bang and let it ring, > all over this land. > > > > spike > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 17:31:54 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 11:31:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <26141250-B863-495E-BEA7-EF78A2C4DF66@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <26141250-B863-495E-BEA7-EF78A2C4DF66@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: I cannot possibly respond to all of that. All I ask is: read that data and tell me what you find. I realize that it is highly unpopular to diss any group, esp. that one, but look at the data - look at the data and tell me that our two 'racial' groups are the same. You can do the same with IQ data - tell me all of that is false. I do not let politics and PC determine my views. bill w On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 8:45 AM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Mr. Wallace, I have to agree with Will. You are coming across racist asf. > It?s embarrassing and cringe-worthy. If I was a moderator, I?d say it has > no place here and you?d be warned. I welcome free speech and promote > tolerance. Hate speech can fuck off however. I have similar disdain for > promoting ignorance, which you are doing. > > Briefly, you appear to conflate the correlation of poverty and race (which > is a social construct mind you) and arrive as a causal connection between > something you see inherent in people of a certain complexion and behaviors > you find abhorrent. And you do this generalizing to an entire > socially-defined yet scientifically invalid class inaccurately, unfairly, > and inconsistent with data noting exceptions. Perhaps you?ve been in the > South too long. I patently reject your logic and conclusions. You?re > perspective may be too limited to be able to form a valid and data-based > opinion and certainly is too limited to arrive at the broad conclusions you > did. I can state this because it?s self-evident to me they are wrong and > based on my diverse social and cultural experiences with people of other > cultures and who have been systematically disadvantaged. As a minority I > have been at the receiving end of such gross and inaccurate > generalizations. Also, you neglect the contribution of oppression, how > people respond to being oppressed, and how they respond to a history of > oppression in your oversimple analysis. > > If you want to expand your mind at all, perhaps read Ta-Nehisi Coates? > Between the World and Me. If not, please propagate your drivel elsewhere. > It will be welcomed on white nationalist forums and Trump?s social media > platform I?m sure. I will actively resist it here however if it?s > tolerated and eventually send your veiled hate right to junk mail. If the > groupthink ends up supporting your promotion of hate and ignorance here, > I?m outta here in a heartbeat. I?m not inclined to argue with you because > it does not appear you are open to change or alternative perspectives. > > On Dec 3, 2022, at 8:10 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > Jeez, Will, I didn't know you made the rules for what Negroes are called. > bill w > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 4:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Jeez Mr. Crow, you'd think someone on a science list would know what >> omitted variable bias is... >> >> Also look I know you're like 80 or something but I don't think it is hard >> to understand what I said. Black as an adjective is fine, black as a noun >> is not. Should I say it a third time or do you get it now >> >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 3:30 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Also whose morals are you referring to? I think you are talking about >>>> poor people in general. The color of your skin doesn't change your morals >>>> or behavior. Your economic and living situation does. >>>> >>> >>> Will, would you like to take a look at the statistics on unwed mothers, >>> often very young, abortions? Then tell me race does not matter. >>> >>> Prostitution beginning at age nine or so is rampant. Look at the >>> statistics. I have known about black prostitution since the 50s, working >>> with black men. "Oh yeah, I am going to buy me something from her this >>> weekend They'll all do it, even the married ones." >>> Children tell. Children tell parents about what other children brag >>> about on the playground, or even see. It was a significantpart of white >>> flight to suburbs and creating all white schools. >>> >>> I wish you were right, Will, and that skin color doesn't matter. But we >>> are talking about different cultures here, and sexual mores are different >>> and have been for a long time. Ask a sociologist. These things don't make >>> the news for obvious reasons. bill w >>> >>> Blacks - that is what I read they wanted - capitalization. Now it's back >>> to blacks? Will someone please take charge and tell me what's PC? bill w >>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:22 PM Will Steinberg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Lol dude 'black' as an adjective is ok. 'Blacks' is not considered >>>>> ok. You should say 'black people'. Just letting you know >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 2:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I will admit to forgetting to use 'Blacks'. But you did it yourself >>>>>> Will. I do admit to some bias (NOT prejudice) against Blacks: I strongly >>>>>> condemn their morals, and I don't want to get any flak about welfare >>>>>> causing men to abandon their lovers and children. So if that makes me >>>>>> racist, to that extent I am racist >>>>>> >>>>>> I deal with a lot of Blacks, mostly working for me. I treat them >>>>>> like friends. I feed them, I let them in the house to use the bathroom, >>>>>> and so on - I'll bet not a lot of white people in the South go that far. >>>>>> bill w >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> From what I have gathered, WFW William is one of those 'southern >>>>>>> boomer' liberals whose heart seeks mostly in the right place but also says >>>>>>> things like 'blacks' and generally doesn't know he is being implicitly or >>>>>>> explicitly racist or racist-adjacent some of the time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I try to remind myself that much of this list is in the 60-80 age >>>>>>> bracket. It comes with the territory I guess. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think he means to just point to the fact that intra-group murder >>>>>>> rates are super high for poor black ghettoized city dwellers and that >>>>>>> nobody seems to care, and that that is sad and fucked up, but the language >>>>>>> is all bungled. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WFW, correct me if I'm wrong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:33 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via >>>>>>>> extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, >>>>>>>>> doesn't even make the news ever. spike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out >>>>>>>>> of prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that >>>>>>>>> killings other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no >>>>>>>>> ideological agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that irritates >>>>>>>> you... then you make this commentary that has no other quality than to >>>>>>>> value signal your racism? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Next time you think to post such, don't. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There, one of us said it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of >>>>>>>> etiquette, you may assume we're all in agreement. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 17:47:14 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 09:47:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] from the bee: was RE: China copying US by tracking phones of protestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002b01d9073f$481d63c0$d8582b40$@rainier66.com> I hope we are still laughing about this a coupla weeks from now: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23010 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 17:52:44 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 11:52:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] slam Message-ID: I will respond to one comment: the idea that my views are affected by where I live (among mostly conservatives) is a giant slam against my intellectual integrity and I reject it utterly. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 18:16:18 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 10:16:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <005301d90721$008a2930$019e7b90$@rainier66.com> <008901d9072c$3f89ef20$be9dcd60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007001d90743$578a8780$069f9680$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >?Peyton Place - just titillating - not a good book?. Well ja, there is that. But recall that was back in the days when our favorite centerfold was Miss October 1957 on page 137 of National Geographic. Hey, it was all we had in those days. Times changed. >? I did read it and was not titillated? Oh. So good chance you were not the one who dogeared the pages on the juicy parts in that copy our public library had. Oh wait, never mind, I did that. Hey it was all we had in those days. Times changed. >? Catcher was, I think, an experimental book - sort of a stream of consciousness book. It succeeded spectacularly but is not a good book. bill w Ja if so, it was a failed experiment. For that genre you go with Jack Kerouac?s On the Road. That was a fun jazzy romp. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 18:43:04 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 13:43:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] control of the narrative: was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <26141250-B863-495E-BEA7-EF78A2C4DF66@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: Like I said already (starting to thing that getting older doesn't just make your hearing worse, but your listening too,) I'm not sure why you are ignoring the vast omitted variable bias. I could cut off the right hand of every person with red hair and you'd be the first one to say "People with red hair only have left hands! IT'S SCIENCE!!!". Embarrassing for someone on a science list to be so ignorant of statistics. How's that for a slam against your intelligence? On Sat, Dec 3, 2022, 12:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I cannot possibly respond to all of that. All I ask is: read that data > and tell me what you find. I realize that it is highly unpopular to diss > any group, esp. that one, but look at the data - look at the data and tell > me that our two 'racial' groups are the same. You can do the same with IQ > data - tell me all of that is false. > > I do not let politics and PC determine my views. > > bill w > > On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 8:45 AM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Mr. Wallace, I have to agree with Will. You are coming across racist asf. >> It?s embarrassing and cringe-worthy. If I was a moderator, I?d say it has >> no place here and you?d be warned. I welcome free speech and promote >> tolerance. Hate speech can fuck off however. I have similar disdain for >> promoting ignorance, which you are doing. >> >> Briefly, you appear to conflate the correlation of poverty and race >> (which is a social construct mind you) and arrive as a causal connection >> between something you see inherent in people of a certain complexion and >> behaviors you find abhorrent. And you do this generalizing to an entire >> socially-defined yet scientifically invalid class inaccurately, unfairly, >> and inconsistent with data noting exceptions. Perhaps you?ve been in the >> South too long. I patently reject your logic and conclusions. You?re >> perspective may be too limited to be able to form a valid and data-based >> opinion and certainly is too limited to arrive at the broad conclusions you >> did. I can state this because it?s self-evident to me they are wrong and >> based on my diverse social and cultural experiences with people of other >> cultures and who have been systematically disadvantaged. As a minority I >> have been at the receiving end of such gross and inaccurate >> generalizations. Also, you neglect the contribution of oppression, how >> people respond to being oppressed, and how they respond to a history of >> oppression in your oversimple analysis. >> >> If you want to expand your mind at all, perhaps read Ta-Nehisi Coates? >> Between the World and Me. If not, please propagate your drivel elsewhere. >> It will be welcomed on white nationalist forums and Trump?s social media >> platform I?m sure. I will actively resist it here however if it?s >> tolerated and eventually send your veiled hate right to junk mail. If the >> groupthink ends up supporting your promotion of hate and ignorance here, >> I?m outta here in a heartbeat. I?m not inclined to argue with you because >> it does not appear you are open to change or alternative perspectives. >> >> On Dec 3, 2022, at 8:10 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> Jeez, Will, I didn't know you made the rules for what Negroes are >> called. bill w >> >> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 4:36 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Jeez Mr. Crow, you'd think someone on a science list would know what >>> omitted variable bias is... >>> >>> Also look I know you're like 80 or something but I don't think it is >>> hard to understand what I said. Black as an adjective is fine, black as a >>> noun is not. Should I say it a third time or do you get it now >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 3:30 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Also whose morals are you referring to? I think you are talking about >>>>> poor people in general. The color of your skin doesn't change your morals >>>>> or behavior. Your economic and living situation does. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Will, would you like to take a look at the statistics on unwed mothers, >>>> often very young, abortions? Then tell me race does not matter. >>>> >>>> Prostitution beginning at age nine or so is rampant. Look at the >>>> statistics. I have known about black prostitution since the 50s, working >>>> with black men. "Oh yeah, I am going to buy me something from her this >>>> weekend They'll all do it, even the married ones." >>>> Children tell. Children tell parents about what other children brag >>>> about on the playground, or even see. It was a significantpart of white >>>> flight to suburbs and creating all white schools. >>>> >>>> I wish you were right, Will, and that skin color doesn't matter. But we >>>> are talking about different cultures here, and sexual mores are different >>>> and have been for a long time. Ask a sociologist. These things don't make >>>> the news for obvious reasons. bill w >>>> >>>> Blacks - that is what I read they wanted - capitalization. Now it's >>>> back to blacks? Will someone please take charge and tell me what's PC? >>>> bill w >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 4:22 PM Will Steinberg >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Lol dude 'black' as an adjective is ok. 'Blacks' is not considered >>>>>> ok. You should say 'black people'. Just letting you know >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 2:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I will admit to forgetting to use 'Blacks'. But you did it yourself >>>>>>> Will. I do admit to some bias (NOT prejudice) against Blacks: I strongly >>>>>>> condemn their morals, and I don't want to get any flak about welfare >>>>>>> causing men to abandon their lovers and children. So if that makes me >>>>>>> racist, to that extent I am racist >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I deal with a lot of Blacks, mostly working for me. I treat them >>>>>>> like friends. I feed them, I let them in the house to use the bathroom, >>>>>>> and so on - I'll bet not a lot of white people in the South go that far. >>>>>>> bill w >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From what I have gathered, WFW William is one of those 'southern >>>>>>>> boomer' liberals whose heart seeks mostly in the right place but also says >>>>>>>> things like 'blacks' and generally doesn't know he is being implicitly or >>>>>>>> explicitly racist or racist-adjacent some of the time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I try to remind myself that much of this list is in the 60-80 age >>>>>>>> bracket. It comes with the territory I guess. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think he means to just point to the fact that intra-group murder >>>>>>>> rates are super high for poor black ghettoized city dwellers and that >>>>>>>> nobody seems to care, and that that is sad and fucked up, but the language >>>>>>>> is all bungled. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> WFW, correct me if I'm wrong. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 1:33 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Four young people slain with a gun on the south side of Chicago, >>>>>>>>>> doesn't even make the news ever. spike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And why not? No story there - just black gang members, in or out >>>>>>>>>> of prison, killing one another. I suspect that data will show that >>>>>>>>>> killings other than domestic ones are overwhelmingly black and have no >>>>>>>>>> ideological agenda at all. No news is not good news. bill w >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You give spike for being a goofy kind of narrow-view that >>>>>>>>> irritates you... then you make this commentary that has no other quality >>>>>>>>> than to value signal your racism? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Next time you think to post such, don't. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There, one of us said it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If nobody else corrects me for overstepping the bounds of >>>>>>>>> etiquette, you may assume we're all in agreement. >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 3 18:49:32 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 10:49:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] computing power up the wazoo In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <005301d90721$008a2930$019e7b90$@rainier66.com> <008901d9072c$3f89ef20$be9dcd60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001101d90747$fba94ff0$f2fbefd0$@rainier66.com> For those of you who are amused by this sort of thing, consider the discussions on ExI over twenty years ago in which most of us agreed that eventually someone would figure out how to hide a computer in or on the body and communicate with it somehow in a way that was completely impossible to detect. It first happened when a guy had a device in his shoe, but he was caught, so now the big money tournaments have what amounts to a near strip search along with metal detectors. Recently Hans Niemann defeated world champion Magnus Carlsen in a game that looks very suspiciously brilliant. Most chess players have had an occasional really good day where everything came together, but it never comes this far together. Most (well, nearly all) are convinced (as I am) that Niemann somehow communicated with a computer, without a second person involved. Prevailing opinion is that he somehow had it up his butt, however it is not at all clear what the I/O channel or methods might be. Forbes had an interesting take on it: Lawyers representing Norwegian World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen and online chess platform Chess.com asked a federal judge Friday to toss a $100 million lawsuit filed by chess grandmaster Hans Niemann in October, which marked a dramatic escalation of tensions over cheating allegations levied against the 19-year-old American. The motion to dismiss argued the teenager spent years "trying to curate a reputation as the bad boy of chess" and "now wants to cash in by blaming others" after the allegations derailed his chess career. Niemann acknowledged he cheated during a handful of matches as a young teen but an October report from Chess.com determined he " likely cheated" more than 100 times in online chess matches, after Carlsen released a statement in September saying Niemann "has cheated more -- and more recently -- than he has publicly admitted." Niemann stated in his defamation lawsuit the claims are a conspiracy from the chess community's establishment to smear him after he defeated Carlsen -- the five-time defending world champion -- during a tournament in St. Louis on September 4. The teen claimed the alleged conspiracy was an attempt to save Carlsen, 32, from reputational damage after Chess.com agreed to purchase his "Play Magnus" app for $83 million in August. Friday's motion stated all of Niemann's claims are without merit, arguing he has not disproved the cheating allegations or offered evidence to back up his conspiracy assertion. The lawsuit, filed in the Eastern District of Missouri, also named Chess.com executive Daniel Rensch and a website streaming partner, Hikaru Nakamura, as defendants. "Niemann now seeks to shift blame to reigning World Chess Champion Magnus Carlsen and others, claiming a wholly implausible conspiracy to defame and boycott Niemann that somehow damaged his already dubious reputation to the tune of $100 million," the motion to dismiss states. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 20:55:27 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 14:55:27 -0600 Subject: [ExI] save your breath Message-ID: I have not and will not read any comments after the one Dave made, to which I strongly objected. If you find data different from what I said, please let me know Otherwise, I am not interested in opinions that are not data-driven, like mine are. Check out Thomas Sowell and the late Walter Williams for views identical to mine. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 21:17:33 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 21:17:33 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Twitter and free speech In-Reply-To: <002701d906cb$5c763a00$1562ae00$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d906bb$4fb42f80$ef1c8e80$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d906c3$60c0fcb0$2242f610$@rainier66.com> <002701d906cb$5c763a00$1562ae00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 at 04:00, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Dave, new members are coming to Twitter in droves. I am on there now. Haven?t posted anything. I don?t see anything that looks like a shit show. Were I an advertiser there, I would hang around and look for ways to sell my wares to the newly arrived faceless masses of money. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Very debatable. Musk doesn't yet really understand what is going on in Twitter. Quotes: Musk?s Beloved Twitter Polls Are Bot-Driven Bullsh!t, Ex-Employees Say ?Polls are more prone to manipulation than almost anything else [on Twitter]. It?s interesting, given his [Musk?s] use of polls,? Yoel Roth, the company?s former Head of Trust and Safety says By Noah Shachtman, Adam Rawnsley December 1, 2022 There?s just one problem, multiple former Twitter employees say. The social network?s polls are magnets for bots and other inauthentic accounts. They?re literally designed to be spammed and gamed. Musk?s claims of recent user growth may be flawed for the same bot-plagued reasons, former staffers say. Under his leadership, Twitter recently told advertisers that monetizable daily active users have grown 20 percent and Musk himself tweeted that ?Twitter usage is at an all-time high.? But it?s not clear how much of that claimed growth is authentic. ?Think about it: On any given week, [the security] team removed millions of accounts manually,? the source said. After Musk slashed Twitter?s workforce?particularly its trust and safety teams?the company is now left with fewer staff available to block those millions of would-be spammers booted under the former management. ---------------- The jury is still out on how Twitter is coping. BillK From giulio at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 06:49:19 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 07:49:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] A conversation with Bobby Azarian Message-ID: Turing Church podcast. A conversation with Bobby Azarian. The universe strives toward life, consciousness, and complexity. New physics? Audio and links to video. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/podcast-a-conversation-with-bobby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 4 14:26:49 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 06:26:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play Message-ID: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> Hey cool, idea! The information coming out now about Twitter shows a bunch of requests to take down information. Twitter complied, using Twitter's resources, for which advertisers pay (that's Twitter's revenue stream.) Alternative: have people who request a post be removed pay to have it removed. Keep a record of what was removed and when it was removed. Payments for removal would have an expiration, after which the paid-to-remove post would go up. Then the content moderation would be effectively done, not by paid professionals at Twitter's expense, not by advertisers, not even by users, but by paying Twitter customers. That could make a buttload of money! Sheesh that infamous laptop alone could be worth billions, perhaps the first trillion dollar news item. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Sun Dec 4 15:04:42 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 15:04:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 9:26 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > The information coming out now about Twitter shows a bunch of requests to take down information. Twitter complied, using Twitter?s resources, for which advertisers pay (that?s Twitter?s revenue stream.) Alternative: have people who request a post be removed pay to have it removed. Keep a record of what was removed and when it was removed. Payments for removal would have an expiration, after which the paid-to-remove post would go up. So anyone can remove anyone else's tweets? Seems not very free speechy. Is there not some legal justification required? What's to stop people from posting the same content again, maybe slightly modified? I can see bots battling to post and take down the same info. :-) Which could be good for Musk. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 15:16:07 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 07:16:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That fits the legal definition of blackmail.("pay us or the public sees this"), especially the version where payment only suppresses for a limited time, and as such is illegal. Twitter would be ordered to cease the practice quickly, and whoever was responsible for implementing it could go to jail. On Sun, Dec 4, 2022, 6:28 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Hey cool, idea! > > > > The information coming out now about Twitter shows a bunch of requests to > take down information. Twitter complied, using Twitter?s resources, for > which advertisers pay (that?s Twitter?s revenue stream.) Alternative: have > people who request a post be removed pay to have it removed. Keep a record > of what was removed and when it was removed. Payments for removal would > have an expiration, after which the paid-to-remove post would go up. > > > > Then the content moderation would be effectively done, not by paid > professionals at Twitter?s expense, not by advertisers, not even by users, > but by paying Twitter customers. That could make a buttload of money! > Sheesh that infamous laptop alone could be worth billions, perhaps the > first trillion dollar news item. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 4 17:59:19 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 09:59:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008201d9080a$223823e0$66a86ba0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pay to not play On Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 9:26 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: The information coming out now about Twitter shows a bunch of requests to take down information. Twitter complied, using Twitter?s resources? >?So anyone can remove anyone else's tweets? Seems not very free speechy? Ja it does seem like something is off a bit. People were making requests to Twitter to remove any reference to the laptop, which is one reason why we still don?t know what that is. We keep hearing more and more references to it, and have seen a little of what is on it, but a lot of what people were requesting is removal of other people?s tweets and banning to stop references to the laptop. >? Is there not some legal justification required? Apparently not, but even if there is, technology is fast, law is slow. >?What's to stop people from posting the same content again, maybe slightly modified? Getting banned for posting it. Twitter did that. >?I can see bots battling to post and take down the same info. :-) Which could be good for Musk. -Dave Musk sure, but I am thinking of how that notion can be harnessed to sell advertisement for which I get paid. On Quora for instance, if a lot of people sign up to follow and upvote your answers and all that, you can sign up to be a content provider and make a tenth of a cent per view, that kinda thing. Quora makes money, I get a percent or two of their take, everyone wins. If Twitter can set up to where people are working against each other on some really big story such as the laptop, where both the original posts and the requests to remove sell ad space, that sounds to me like a winning business model. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 4 19:21:09 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 11:21:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b901d90815$914edb60$b3ec9220$@rainier66.com> >?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pay to not play >?That fits the legal definition of blackmail.("pay us or the public sees this"), especially the version where payment only suppresses for a limited time, and as such is illegal? Oy vey, it sure does Adrian. Damn, that idea won?t work. >? Twitter would be ordered to cease the practice quickly, and whoever was responsible for implementing it could go to jail? Jail? Dead ya mean, and that?s only if he?s LUCKY! Well OK then, let us reframe the question. There are events or records or whatever else which create an inherent conflict particularly in politics: one group has inherent interest in hiding it, the other has inherent interest in making it widely known. The laptop is a perfect example of that conflict. There is a stunning pile of value in who wins that conflict. The development of the internet has dramatically increased the potential of widely disseminating information, resulting in huge escalation in the value of both positions: the tells and don?t tells. Conflict of enormous value. We can even make up symbolic pronouns symbolizing both interests: William Tell and Carl Coverup. OK inherent conflict, we already know one way money can be made here for we have a sports example: betting. We already have meme betting, and notice how political betting is already by far the most dominant area of online betting. It isn?t entirely clear how we set up wagers on the laptop, but wherever there is conflict, wherever William and Carl meet, there must be money to be made somehow. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Sun Dec 4 19:52:38 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 19:52:38 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Why would anyone have the right to pay to remove a post on Twitter or any large reach social media platform? They would be paying to make that content not visible to everyone else on the platform that would otherwise have seen it. This gives those with the deepest pockets the ability to limit what everyone else can know from use of that platform. This gives the deepest pockets the effective ability to silence others on the platform. Who has the deepest pockets of all? Government. As far as the payment being for squelching the content for a limited time this would not make it better if the squelched content had time sensitive value. For instance squelching the Hunter Biden laptop story until just after the election where the content might be germane for what most people consider an important decision would not make it ok that it wasn't squelched forever. -samantha ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 7:26 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Hey cool, idea! > > The information coming out now about Twitter shows a bunch of requests to take down information. Twitter complied, using Twitter?s resources, for which advertisers pay (that?s Twitter?s revenue stream.) Alternative: have people who request a post be removed pay to have it removed. Keep a record of what was removed and when it was removed. Payments for removal would have an expiration, after which the paid-to-remove post would go up. > > Then the content moderation would be effectively done, not by paid professionals at Twitter?s expense, not by advertisers, not even by users, but by paying Twitter customers. That could make a buttload of money! Sheesh that infamous laptop alone could be worth billions, perhaps the first trillion dollar news item. > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 4 21:14:09 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 13:14:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of sjatkins via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pay to not play >?Why would anyone have the right to pay to remove a post on Twitter or any large reach social media platform? They would be paying to make that content not visible to everyone else on the platform that would otherwise have seen it. This gives those with the deepest pockets the ability to limit what everyone else can know from use of that platform. This gives the deepest pockets the effective ability to silence others on the platform. Who has the deepest pockets of all? Government. As far as the payment being for squelching the content for a limited time this would not make it better if the squelched content had time sensitive value. For instance squelching the Hunter Biden laptop story until just after the election where the content might be germane for what most people consider an important decision would not make it ok that it wasn't squelched forever. -samantha All of these are perfectly valid questions and observations Samantha. It doesn?t surprise me that you have thought this all through. Why would anyone have the right to pay to remove a post on Twitter, she asked. Eh, it isn?t so much a right as it is a pathway to make things happen. Given enough money, one can do things they have no legal, ethical or moral right to do. Read on please. In our times, it has become more clear: the monetary value of government (in dollars.) The internet has opened vast new opportunities to profit from influencing government. That abandoned laptop as a perfect example of a story that is worth untold billions of dollars: one side wants it told and will pay dearly to make that happen, another side will pay still more billions to cover it up. We can get into all kinds of fun legal logic loops with this one. For instance? Hunter Biden filled out an FBI form to get a license to buy a gun, form F4473. Lying on that form is a felony. On Hunter Biden?s F4473, signed under penalty of prison (it is legally an affidavit (lying on that is perjury (a felony))) Hunter said he was not doing drugs, signed it, got his firearm. That image of his F4473 is getting harder to find on the internet, but it can still be found. So. We know that Hunter was not doing drugs, in accordance with his own legal testimony. However? some of the content of that laptop leaked, such as a short video of Hunter with a gun in one hand, a crack pipe in his mouth. So? the content of that laptop with that video must be covered, otherwise the FBI cannot enforce F4473 or the other legalities surrounding purchase of a firearm, for they would implicate themselves. They had the laptop, they saw the indications that perhaps Hunter was doing drugs and lied on an F4473 and they helped cover that up. Or? they could maintain that he didn?t buy a gun, or they could maintain that he didn?t smoke crack. To do all this requires that laptop stay secret. Allowing that laptop to be public would undo decades of legalities surrounding gun ownership, which is not in the best interest of the FBI. Conclusion: that laptop is worth billions of dollars. An inherent conflict exists. There hasta be money to be made here, lots of it. Somehow. To quote a famous politician ?I want that money.? Good chance a shot at some of that profit involves Twitter. Fun aside: the critical F4473 is now mostly behind paywalls, but that too reinforces my overall theme that government has been monetized in our times. It is not at all clear to me how government can be demonetized at this point. My further overall contention is that this presents enormous potential for profit. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 4 21:34:14 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 13:34:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <014301d90825$5b1fe790$115fb6b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <014301d90825$5b1fe790$115fb6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015801d90828$297e7e10$7c7b7a30$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of sjatkins via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pay to not play >?Why would anyone have the right to pay to remove a post on Twitter or any large reach social media platform?....-samantha Samantha, it is good to have old friends, specifically friends from the long time agos, for they can answer questions you might have in a moment of introspection. You were an active poster in 1990s and thru somewhere around? 2005? In those years, you remember what you wrote about. In all that there was a thread that remains burned into my memory like a crystal vision, something you posted about, something I thought was a bit extreme but you were right on the money with it. I think of that thread often, for I was dead wrong, a lot of us were. But you were right. So? knowing that you had a big impact on me with that thread, have you a good guess what that thread was about and what you said? spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3802 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Mon Dec 5 02:07:45 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 02:07:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] slam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Agree 100% Besides back in old Extropy days it was mostly radical futurist who were also radically pro-liberty. Indeed full freedom would seem essential to continuous improvement. That includes radical freedom in the marketplace. There is nothing "conservative" really about that. ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, December 3rd, 2022 at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I will respond to one comment: the idea that my views are affected by where I live (among mostly conservatives) is a giant slam against my intellectual integrity and I reject it utterly. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 02:41:33 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 21:41:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] slam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Uh I think you might be thinking of a different conversation. We were just irked because Mr. Wallace was saying racist pseudoscientific bullshit. But hey maybe he came to those conclusions himself without any input from his neighbors, which is...worse, I think? Simply put unless this is some kind of racist or ethnonationalist list, in which case I will leave, I don't see any reason why we should abide a member saying that black people are *by nature* immoral and/or unintelligent. It's quite abhorrent, and if I were an intelligent black person who happened to read that, I would go far away. Idk, maybe that was his goal, but I don't feel good about being in a space where that is anyone's goal. If you guys are racist please just let me know and I can get outta here On Sun, Dec 4, 2022, 9:09 PM sjatkins via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Agree 100% Besides back in old Extropy days it was mostly radical > futurist who were also radically pro-liberty. Indeed full freedom would > seem essential to continuous improvement. That includes radical freedom in > the marketplace. There is nothing "conservative" really about that. > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Saturday, December 3rd, 2022 at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via > extropy-chat wrote: > > I will respond to one comment: the idea that my views are affected by > where I live (among mostly conservatives) is a giant slam against my > intellectual integrity and I reject it utterly. bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Mon Dec 5 03:23:23 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 03:23:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <015801d90828$297e7e10$7c7b7a30$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <014301d90825$5b1fe790$115fb6b0$@rainier66.com> <015801d90828$297e7e10$7c7b7a30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <6saU5mOBVWYLwIZdZ0w4XlZOknxTmfSRWzV_WJSTaxGZd42OCAqxgwYTWqBQrKPGBF9DlPJbZVTwokEHOYR6b7NLVLLYvhseJo0TJrhDrtg=@protonmail.com> ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 2:34 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > You were an active poster in 1990s and thru somewhere around? 2005? In > those years, you remember what you wrote about. In all that there was a > thread that remains burned into my memory like a crystal vision, something > you posted about, something I thought was a bit extreme but you were right > on the money with it. I think of that thread often, for I was dead wrong, a > lot of us were. But you were right. > > > > So? knowing that you had a big impact on me with that thread, have you a > good guess what that thread was about and what you said? > Hi Spike, Not sure which one it might have been. I remember getting in a bit of a fracas with some in the group around the lead up to the Iraq invasion. I forget whether there was such around 9/11 or the anti-terrorism Patriot Act stuff. I remember fondly arguing with Eliezer about CEV or some such at a gathering at your place once. Other than that I am drawing a blank. But if you can hum a few more bars perhaps something will get jogged loose. - samantha From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 03:39:10 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 19:39:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <6saU5mOBVWYLwIZdZ0w4XlZOknxTmfSRWzV_WJSTaxGZd42OCAqxgwYTWqBQrKPGBF9DlPJbZVTwokEHOYR6b7NLVLLYvhseJo0TJrhDrtg=@protonmail.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <014301d90825$5b1fe790$115fb6b0$@rainier66.com> <015801d90828$297e7e10$7c7b7a30$@rainier66.com> <6saU5mOBVWYLwIZdZ0w4XlZOknxTmfSRWzV_WJSTaxGZd42OCAqxgwYTWqBQrKPGBF9DlPJbZVTwokEHOYR6b7NLVLLYvhseJo0TJrhDrtg=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <000601d9085b$23537b20$69fa7160$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of sjatkins via extropy-chat > So? knowing that you had a big impact on me with that thread, have you > a good guess what that thread was about and what you said? > Hi Spike, Not sure which one it might have been. I remember getting in a bit of a fracas with some in the group around the lead up to the Iraq invasion. I forget whether there was such around 9/11 or the anti-terrorism Patriot Act stuff. I remember fondly arguing with Eliezer about CEV or some such at a gathering at your place once. Other than that I am drawing a blank. But if you can hum a few more bars perhaps something will get jogged loose. - samantha _______________________________________________ Ah fond memories indeed you have brought back. I had forgotten that discussion you had with Eliezer, for I only listened to that one without attempting to contribute. I was too far out of my area of expertise. But all that predated the discussion I am thinking about. Of all the discussion around the anti-terrorism Patriot Act, you were the one who drew the most accurate word picture of how that would develop. You were the one who recognized that it was an end-run around the fourth amendment. I stayed out of that mostly, or was reprehensibly wishy washy about it (something I regret now.) It was you who recognized that if power like that exists, power like that will be abused. It was. I am astonished (still!) that the organization which was the biggest abuser of that power was our own FBI, but I have a vague suspicion now that you were not a bit surprised when you heard of it. Well done indeed madam. You demonstrate you had telescopic crystal vision of the future, way back in the days when we were so convinced of these Islamic terrorist sleeper cells sneaking around looking for ways to crash our planes that we ignored the threat of terrorist cells within the FBI with no particular religious conviction, other than good old fashioned power addiction. Take a bow Samantha. You deserve it. spike From max at maxmore.com Mon Dec 5 04:56:03 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 04:56:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] save your breath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please provide a citation from Thomas Sowell and from Walter Williams. I do not think they said what you think they said. ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2022 1:55 PM To: ExI chat list ; extropolis at googlegroups.com Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] save your breath I have not and will not read any comments after the one Dave made, to which I strongly objected. If you find data different from what I said, please let me know Otherwise, I am not interested in opinions that are not data-driven, like mine are. Check out Thomas Sowell and the late Walter Williams for views identical to mine. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Mon Dec 5 05:00:23 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 05:00:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] save your breath In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To follow up... You wrote: Will, would you like to take a look at the statistics on unwed mothers, often very young, abortions? Then tell me race does not matter. Prostitution beginning at age nine or so is rampant. Look at the statistics. I have known about black prostitution since the 50s, working with black men. "Oh yeah, I am going to buy me something from her this weekend They'll all do it, even the married ones." It really doesn't seem that you've read or understand Williams or Sowell. They point out how government programs and regulations have hurt the worse off more than other groups. Minimum wage laws actually had their origin in racial oppression. ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2022 1:55 PM To: ExI chat list ; extropolis at googlegroups.com Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] save your breath I have not and will not read any comments after the one Dave made, to which I strongly objected. If you find data different from what I said, please let me know Otherwise, I am not interested in opinions that are not data-driven, like mine are. Check out Thomas Sowell and the late Walter Williams for views identical to mine. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 05:09:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 21:09:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <000601d9085b$23537b20$69fa7160$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <014301d90825$5b1fe790$115fb6b0$@rainier66.com> <015801d90828$297e7e10$7c7b7a30$@rainier66.com> <6saU5mOBVWYLwIZdZ0w4XlZOknxTmfSRWzV_WJSTaxGZd42OCAqxgwYTWqBQrKPGBF9DlPJbZVTwokEHOYR6b7NLVLLYvhseJo0TJrhDrtg=@protonmail.com> <000601d9085b$23537b20$69fa7160$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001801d90867$c877fa20$5967ee60$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com >...Well done indeed madam. You demonstrate you had telescopic crystal vision of the future, way back in the days when...spike Samantha, a long time ago in a galaxy far far way, Zeus was the top Greek god, which is remarkable considering this was billions of years before Greece even existed. He was already the top god there, billions of years ahead of time. In any case, the way I heared it: Zeus got in the mood one eon and wanted some action from Cassandra, but she said no. This was a huge ego bust for... the top god, as one might imagine. Gorgeous goddesses all over the galaxy would give him anything he wanted, and this one turned him down! How insulting is that. But hey, she had her reasons I suppose. Perhaps she wasn't feeling well that eon, or it was that time of the... millennium I don't know. She refused, and no means no. Zeus decided to show there were no hard feelings (even tho there were) and gave her a little gift: the power to see the future. Wow, thanks Zeus! Whatta god. But of course there were hard feelings, and it was trick. Cassandra had a bunch of humans she kept as pets and helped them prosper. So when they were planning a really stupid attack, because of Zeus' gift, she could see what would happen and told them to stop it forthwith. Cassandra was unaware that Zeus was really pissed and had given her a curse rather than a gift: he made the humans not believe her. The more she warned, the less they paid attention. They attacked, they got their asses handed to them. So it went for billions of years and continued up until Greece formed and they had a chance to invent all this mythology: Cassandra could see the bad consequences of her humans' foibles, but they would never heed her warnings. And all that is a long winded parable, which is really about your warnings on the Patriot Act. spike From sjatkins at protonmail.com Mon Dec 5 05:31:57 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 05:31:57 +0000 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> ?The "means of production" are, and have been for some time, the human mind. All systems based on collectivism, including Marxism and all forms of communism, are collectivist and seek to both by ideology and force own by idealistic means and by force the human mind and control its products. They seek to subsume the individual and thus lessen the free play of this means of production. Not, mind you that the more free and democratic parts of the world don't try to do much of the same by other means. Established industries and yesterday's financial winners work quite hard to blunt the threat of new upstart innovation and competition. It is rather strange that so many Western countries hold up China as some role model. Of course they did much the same when the USSR was the country to extol the purported virtues and shining future of. It is a great question why so many supposedly democratic country elites extol their theoretical opposites. Perhaps the desire to control the individual mind and its outputs is far more extensive than some guess. China can't be doing Zero Covid because of health concerns. Anyone with elementary knowledge of virology knows that most viruses so widespread become endemic in a population that largely but not perfectly has herd immunity to at least most of the variants seen to date. A virus is not impressed by lock downs or the ravings of tyrants. You will never get to no cases even if the abuse of PCR for general population screening was trustworth - which it is not. Lock downs were considered primeval unscientific nonsense before COVID. Well except for Bush Jr entertaining the idea in studies from around 2006 much to the horror of many acknowledged experts at the time. They weren't really about health, much less "following the science" anywhere. But I think China is playing a different game. Its economy is screwed in many ways. Too much top down command and control misallocation of funds for far too long including the blowup of the housing industry more central to Chinese than our anxiously watched stock market. I am guessing Zero Covid is about cooling things off in their own markets and a bit of economic kicking the West when it is down from its own COVID actions and the sanctions. But that is guesswork. -samantha ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 5:56 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review > >>?That's another thing that kinda bugged me, Spike--the way you were talking about Marxism made it seem like you were conflating it with authoritarianism? > > No worries Will. Given sufficiently independent Marxist governments, most with populations of one to five, the scenario you describe works just fine and always have. > > Times have changed, a lot. Now we no longer rely on human labor to manufacture stuff very much. A really good example is the Tesla factory up the street. There are workers there, but most of them are overseeing manufacturing equipment. It is nothing like the Ford factory that was there 30 years ago where lines of actual biological units made and assembled the cars. Henry Ford was such a primitive savage that way. > > Now our biological units are mostly from India and write software to control the construction of the cars. They have the option of owning the tools, by buying up stock in their own company. Those who followed that practice in Tesla are in great shape now. They generally have a very low collective opinion of Marxism, while simultaneously practicing it in their homes, to eaching and from eaching with their spouses and children. > > Plenty of workers today are software developers, in which case they already do own the tools. More workers are moving toward that professional paradigm all the time. That whole gathering in a factory renting the corporation?s tools business that vexed Marx (and his four brothers) is really much diminished. > > I can easily foresee that Marxism (and every variant of communism) steadily losing popularity, considering the current experience in China, where the population would prefer to not have the exits welded shut because of covid. This expediency for slowing the pandemic carries its own risks, such as making emergency egress physically impossible when the damn building catches fire. The Chinese proletariat disapprove of this as much as we would. The big difference of course is that our asses are heavily armed and we intend to stay that way, lest we suffer the same fate as the Chinese. > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 05:45:39 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 00:45:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? Message-ID: Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: A) Have you received any covid vaccines? B) Have you gotten ANY covid? Personally I -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 05:46:33 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 00:46:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops I hit send on this one too early. Was saying that I haven't had any of the vaxes or gotten covid. How bout yall On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 12:45 AM Will Steinberg wrote: > Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: > > A) Have you received any covid vaccines? > > B) Have you gotten ANY covid? > > Personally I > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 05:58:03 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 21:58:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of sjatkins via extropy-chat >?China can't be doing Zero Covid because of health concerns. Anyone with elementary knowledge of virology knows that most viruses so widespread become endemic in a population that largely but not perfectly has herd immunity ?-samantha I get the feeling China is doing Zero Covid policy because the Dear Leader is hoping to dissuade the masses from lopping off his Dear Head. That being said, I am thinking about the Dear Leader?s options if the pissed off masses start closing in on the presidential palace with dear bloody goddam vengeance on their dear minds, which would be understandable considering all that has happened. I thought of a most worrisome scenario: The Chinese president looks around and finds that Russia is busy in Ukraine, NATO is (for the past few decades) temporarily weak with little willingness (and even less apparent actual ability) to project force, the USA government is at war with itself, occupied in putting together a massive taskforce aimed at deriving strategies to get the American people to stop talking about a laptop computer. He orders the military to grab Taiwan and calls on the protestors to stand down and contribute to the glory of China?s reunification, after which the Dear Leader controls most of the world?s computer chip production capacity. Oy vey. Someone offer a more optimistic scenario please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 05:59:59 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 16:59:59 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 4 injections, no COVID so far. On Mon, 5 Dec 2022 at 16:47, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: > > A) Have you received any covid vaccines? > > B) Have you gotten ANY covid? > > Personally I > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 06:09:34 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 22:09:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005301d90870$266a2470$733e6d50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Got the jab? On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 12:45 AM Will Steinberg > wrote: Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: A) Have you received any covid vaccines? B) Have you gotten ANY covid? Caught in Dec 2019, whooped my ass. Hospital the only time ever in my life and may that never happen again. Most unpleasant. They didn?t know what it was at the time, they couldn?t do anything really, so they just sent me home with a good luck and adios amigo. Took about 7 weeks to get to mostly recovered, several months for complete recovery. J&J in May 2021. Second J&J in Nov 2021. Caught in July 2022. That one was nothing, just a little sleepiness for a coupla days and loss of the sense of smell and taste, which still hasn?t really returned but I don?t worry about it because I was already in poor taste beforehand. That loss of taste business worked out really well. Now when I want lobster tail, I just soak hotdogs in a mixture of lemon juice and Clorox, then I am like that French chef comparing margarine vs butter: No deefaraaahnze. Consequently? I save a bundle and protect the environment at the same time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Mon Dec 5 06:31:36 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 06:31:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As I am 68 I thought at the time the vaccine came out it was somewhat more prudent to get the Pfizer vaccine when my number allowing me to came up. That was back in March 2021. It was before I started watching the VAERS reports and seeing other relevant info. I wouldn't take them now or the boosters. As to getting COVID I am unsure but possibly got it very early back in early Feb 2020. I got back from a business trip and went to the local grocer. The Asian kid running the cash register was obviously sick and sweating profusely. He was pulled off the line while checking my cart. Some days longer I felt pretty sick myself. For about 10 days I could only be upright 5 hours a day and had an unending dry cough. Almost no energy. Haven't felt anything quite like it before or sense. I don't know if it was COVID but I am suspicious. Contrary to the hatchet job done on it I did stock up on ivermectin later. When my housemate tested positive I made sure to take the prophylactic does until she tested clean. ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 10:45 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: > > A) Have you received any covid vaccines? > > B) Have you gotten ANY covid? > > Personally I -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 06:45:13 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 22:45:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A) Yes, full + 1 booster. Considering getting 2nd; until recently it seemed like I did not qualify for 2nd. B) No. On Sun, Dec 4, 2022 at 9:47 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: > > A) Have you received any covid vaccines? > > B) Have you gotten ANY covid? > > Personally I > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Mon Dec 5 12:07:11 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 12:07:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had two Moderna plus the latest booster. No covid. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Dec 5 13:20:18 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 08:20:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <037e0549-cb3b-6ce4-3e14-939d4ddf7d12@main.nc.us> Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: > > A) Have you received any covid vaccines? > > B) Have you gotten ANY covid? > Two Moderna shots and one Moderna booster. Covid in August 2022, missed 1 day of work. Very tired for many weeks, coughed for a couple of weeks. I'm in my late 70s. Regards, MB From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 13:28:49 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 05:28:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <001801d90867$c877fa20$5967ee60$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <014301d90825$5b1fe790$115fb6b0$@rainier66.com> <015801d90828$297e7e10$7c7b7a30$@rainier66.com> <6saU5mOBVWYLwIZdZ0w4XlZOknxTmfSRWzV_WJSTaxGZd42OCAqxgwYTWqBQrKPGBF9DlPJbZVTwokEHOYR6b7NLVLLYvhseJo0TJrhDrtg=@protonmail.com> <000601d9085b$23537b20$69fa7160$@rainier66.com> <001801d90867$c877fa20$5967ee60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004d01d908ad$830975e0$891c61a0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com >...So it went for billions of years and continued up until Greece formed and they had a chance to invent all this mythology: Cassandra could see the bad consequences of her humans' foibles, but they would never heed her warnings...spike Sometimes my religious faith falters. In the back of my mind I begin to wonder: it is possible that mythology isn't even really...like... true? Could it be really all just a bunch of myths? Then it occurs to me: Oh right, spike ya silly ass. It is tough being a Greek geek. speeke From snapbag at proton.me Mon Dec 5 13:29:06 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 13:29:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 4:14 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Hunter Biden filled out an FBI form to get a license to buy a gun, form F4473. Lying on that form is a felony. On Hunter Biden?s F4473, signed under penalty of prison (it is legally an affidavit (lying on that is perjury (a felony))) Hunter said he was not doing drugs, signed it, got his firearm. That image of his F4473 is getting harder to find on the internet, but it can still be found. So. We know that Hunter was not doing drugs, in accordance with his own legal testimony. Who published his 4473? They're not public information. Given the number of marijuana users in the country, it's safe to say that a lot of people have committed that felony, too. As a libertarian, I don't think it's the government's business. > However? some of the content of that laptop leaked, such as a short video of Hunter with a gun in one hand, a crack pipe in his mouth. So? the content of that laptop with that video must be covered, otherwise the FBI cannot enforce F4473 or the other legalities surrounding purchase of a firearm, for they would implicate themselves. They had the laptop, they saw the indications that perhaps Hunter was doing drugs and lied on an F4473 and they helped cover that up. Or? they could maintain that he didn?t buy a gun, or they could maintain that he didn?t smoke crack. To do all this requires that laptop stay secret. Allowing that laptop to be public would undo decades of legalities surrounding gun ownership, which is not in the best interest of the FBI. A video of some purported activity isn't proof that the purported activity actually happened, or that it happened prior to the signing of an ATF 4473. > Conclusion: that laptop is worth billions of dollars. An inherent conflict exists. There hasta be money to be made here, lots of it. Somehow. To quote a famous politician ?I want that money.? Good chance a shot at some of that profit involves Twitter. You lost me, Spike. Who cares whether Hunter Biden lied on his 4473, to the tune of billions of dollars? > Fun aside: the critical F4473 is now mostly behind paywalls, but that too reinforces my overall theme that government has been monetized in our times. It is not at all clear to me how government can be demonetized at this point. My further overall contention is that this presents enormous potential for profit. The more power the government has, the more that power can be abused. Of course, scaling back the government's power will be resisted by those wielding or abusing that power. The two-party system practically guarantees that voters will toe the party line and the parties will defend their need to retain their power to fight the evil other party. Voters have amply demonstrated that they can't be trusted to think for themselves. I don't see a way out of this mess. -Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 13:31:40 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 05:31:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: <037e0549-cb3b-6ce4-3e14-939d4ddf7d12@main.nc.us> References: <037e0549-cb3b-6ce4-3e14-939d4ddf7d12@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <004e01d908ad$e8cb1cd0$ba615670$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat >...Very tired for many weeks, coughed for a couple of weeks. I'm in my late 70s. Regards, MB _______________________________________________ WHAT? Late 70s? MB, you write so young! Your adverbs are the envy of people half your age, your nouns don't look a day over 40. spike From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Dec 5 13:50:24 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 08:50:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: <004e01d908ad$e8cb1cd0$ba615670$@rainier66.com> References: <037e0549-cb3b-6ce4-3e14-939d4ddf7d12@main.nc.us> <004e01d908ad$e8cb1cd0$ba615670$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <97d42e86-dcdf-7ed5-723e-7a4972165282@main.nc.us> spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > WHAT? Late 70s? MB, you write so young! Your adverbs are the envy of > people half your age, your nouns don't look a day over 40. > Thank you, spike! ;) Hanging out online will do that to you... it's amazing that I still know the difference between "your" and "you're". From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 13:58:30 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 05:58:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pay to not play On Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 4:14 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? We know that Hunter was not doing drugs, in accordance with his own legal testimony. >?Who published his 4473? They're not public information? We don?t know. Might be the same people who published photos of documents seized in the Mara Lago raid. >?Given the number of marijuana users in the country, it's safe to say that a lot of people have committed that felony, too. As a libertarian, I don't think it's the government's business? In principle I agree. Of course that now nullifies federal government control of firearm sale, but in light of what is going down in China and Iran right now, one can reasonably argue that firearms are a most prudent purchase. >? A video of some purported activity isn't proof that the purported activity actually happened, or that it happened prior to the signing of an ATF 4473? That?s part of it, but there is an interesting part 2. The computer repairman who unlocked the abandoned laptop found amateur porno videos on there which had no documentation regarding the identity of the participants. This made those videos either child pornography or the legal equivalent of that (for the makers of those kinds of videos have the legal obligation to maintain documentation showing that the subjects were aware they were being recorded, willing to participate and of legal age.) Without that documentation, the video is either child pornography or the legal equivalent of that. The computer repairman was legally in possession of the files after a certain date. Now he was in a fix. If he erased the video, he would be destroying evidence. If he handed it over to the FBI, he might have been committing suicide next week. If he made a copy and gave it to the political adversary of the FBI, he would be distributing child pornography. Some days it is just no fun being a computer repairman. OK so what if we go ahead and allow the contents of that laptop to nullify firearm purchase law and child pornography law. Will the American people now just please stop talking about it, ignore that man behind the curtain? Or will they keep asking: what else is on that laptop? >?Voters have amply demonstrated that they can't be trusted to think for themselves. I don't see a way out of this mess. -Dave Dave I don?t really see it as a problem on the part of the voters, but rather the elected government. But I do see a way out of this mess. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 15:17:55 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 10:17:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 8:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dave S via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] pay to not play > > > > On Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 4:14 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > >>? We know that Hunter was not doing drugs, in accordance with his own > legal testimony. > > > > >?Who published his 4473? They're not public information? > > We don?t know. Might be the same people who published photos of documents > seized in the Mara Lago raid. > > >?Given the number of marijuana users in the country, it's safe to say > that a lot of people have committed that felony, too. As a libertarian, I > don't think it's the government's business? > > In principle I agree. Of course that now nullifies federal government > control of firearm sale, but in light of what is going down in China and > Iran right now, one can reasonably argue that firearms are a most prudent > purchase. > Interesting, is this the birth of a new political ideology? Something like "Libertarian* *Unless the government is acting against people I don't like" Interesting idea! I wouldn't have thought you were a fan of the ATF but hey we're all full of surprises > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 15:35:13 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 07:35:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301d908bf$2d5744d0$8805ce70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat ? >?In principle I agree. Of course that now nullifies federal government control of firearm sale, but in light of what is going down in China and Iran right now, one can reasonably argue that firearms are a most prudent purchase. >?Interesting, is this the birth of a new political ideology? Something like "Libertarian* Ja, Will in my brand of libertarian, there are still good guys and bad guys. We want the good guys armed and the bad guys not. >?Unless the government is acting against people I don't like? It isn?t so much government acting, it is bad guys acting. If bad guys get in high places in government, we catch them and get rid of them. This is accomplished with increase of government oversight by lots of internal checks and balances by unknown internal agents, randomly assigned to oversee each other. An example is having an investigative team with their email reviewed by randomly selected agents not on the team. If the unknown agent sees something suspicious, such as Crossfire Hurricane, the unknown agent would report anonymously to alternate command structures. All that is really a breezy way of saying sunlight is the best disinfectant. >?Interesting idea! I wouldn't have thought you were a fan of the ATF but hey we're all full of surprises? The ATF knew as well. The tabloid press was carrying stories about the drug use, before, during and after the time the critical F4473 was submitted. Now we wanna know who approved that F4473 and how it is she didn?t know about what most of us knew or suspected by that time. Inside the ATF, who knew and when did they know it? I see this as indication of possible corruption within the ATF. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 17:04:53 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 12:04:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A) Two Pfizer vaccines and one JNJ. B) I got Covid right after the third vaccine. > On Dec 5, 2022, at 12:45 AM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: > > A) Have you received any covid vaccines? > > B) Have you gotten ANY covid? > > Personally I > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From snapbag at proton.me Mon Dec 5 17:23:10 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 17:23:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 8:58 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>?Given the number of marijuana users in the country, it's safe to say that a lot of people have committed that felony, too. As a libertarian, I don't think it's the government's business? > > In principle I agree. Of course that now nullifies federal government control of firearm sale, but in light of what is going down in China and Iran right now, one can reasonably argue that firearms are a most prudent purchase. What nullifies federal government control of firearm sales? >>? A video of some purported activity isn't proof that the purported activity actually happened, or that it happened prior to the signing of an ATF 4473? > > That?s part of it, but there is an interesting part 2. The computer repairman who unlocked the abandoned laptop found amateur porno videos on there which had no documentation regarding the identity of the participants. This made those videos either child pornography or the legal equivalent of that (for the makers of those kinds of videos have the legal obligation to maintain documentation showing that the subjects were aware they were being recorded, willing to participate and of legal age.) Without that documentation, the video is either child pornography or the legal equivalent of that. Considering that the laptop was not in his custody for some time, proving that Hunter Biden put them there could be difficult. With good lawyers--which I'm sure he'd have--this wouldn't be a slam dunk. > The computer repairman was legally in possession of the files after a certain date. Now he was in a fix. If he erased the video, he would be destroying evidence. If he handed it over to the FBI, he might have been committing suicide next week. If he made a copy and gave it to the political adversary of the FBI, he would be distributing child pornography. Some days it is just no fun being a computer repairman. C'mon... Murder? You've been watching too many bad movies or conspiracy theory web sites. > OK so what if we go ahead and allow the contents of that laptop to nullify firearm purchase law and child pornography law. Here you go with nullification, again. Are you seriously saying that if they don't prosecute every possible violation of a law, the law ceases to exist? Prosecutors have to decide which cases are winnable all of the time. >>?Voters have amply demonstrated that they can't be trusted to think for themselves. I don't see a way out of this mess. > Dave I don?t really see it as a problem on the part of the voters, but rather the elected government. But I do see a way out of this mess. OK, so you don't think that the people who elect and re-elect, ad nauseam, bad elected officials are fundamentally responsible? > -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 17:43:07 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 09:43:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat ? >?What nullifies federal government control of firearm sales? The standing continuous demonstration that one can lie on their F4473 and the FBI can know, yet do nothing about it. Then if someone does and the FBI reacts, the obvious question: Are there two different sets of law? And the next obvious question: Was the FBI aware of the most famous F4473 in history? Who was aware? When were they aware? >>? Without that documentation, the video is either child pornography or the legal equivalent of that. >?Considering that the laptop was not in his custody for some time, proving that Hunter Biden put them there could be difficult. With good lawyers--which I'm sure he'd have--this wouldn't be a slam dunk. It would be except for two things: the computer repairman thought of that and made sure copies of that disk were in the custody of others. The other is that the subject made a video of himself with a harlot struggling to explain how (words fail me (as they so seldom do (but they failed him too at that moment))) these videos were that his three Russian friends stole. Even that video itself falls under the category of illegal pornography because there was not enough cotton between the two of them to fill the top of an aspirin bottle. If all that is on yet another laptop in the possession of the Russians, it is a pretty safe bet the Russians have the goods on this man, and possibly his father. >>? Some days it is just no fun being a computer repairman. >?C'mon... Murder? You've been watching too many bad movies or conspiracy theory web sites? Ja or hearing what the computer repairman reports the FBI agent having said: Things don?t happen to those who don?t talk about these matters. I would interpret that as a death threat, considering what was at stake. >?Here you go with nullification, again. Are you seriously saying that if they don't prosecute every possible violation of a law, the law ceases to exist? If they don?t prosecute that one, it deals a serious blow to the FBI?s credibility. Reason: it is so visible, everybody knows about it, everybody will be watching to see if they pull the old ?no reasonable prosecutor? line again. >? Prosecutors have to decide which cases are winnable all of the time? Ja and if prosecutors decide that one isn?t winnable, the system loses all credibility. It becomes very clear that justice is for sale. >>?Dave I don?t really see it as a problem on the part of the voters, but rather the elected government. But I do see a way out of this mess. >?OK, so you don't think that the people who elect and re-elect, ad nauseam, bad elected officials are fundamentally responsible? -Dave Sure we are, but also consider our times, when our own FBI appears to be corrupt and working for a particular party. How hard would it be for the FBI to rig an election? I don?t mean merely improperly influencing social media and starting false conspiracy theories, I mean actual voter machine tampering, creating counterfeit mail-in ballots, all that. Until we get rid of electronic voting machines and most mail-in ballots, we have lost trust in the election system as it is being run. So we don?t know if we keep electing and re-electing the bad guys in the two mainstream parties. We are told that is what is happening, but do you trust them? Neither do I. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 17:58:17 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 12:58:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike honest question do you regularly watch fox news? I suppose I just don't get why anyone cares that much about Biden's crackhead son. This whole thing is one out of a million examples of corruption, nepotism, etc. I think crying foul about the ATF form shows a lot of bias. The ATF is shitty and I wouldn't wish them an iota more power even if it was wielded against my political enemies. Cutting off nose to spite face On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 12:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dave S via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >?What nullifies federal government control of firearm sales? > > The standing continuous demonstration that one can lie on their F4473 and > the FBI can know, yet do nothing about it. > > Then if someone does and the FBI reacts, the obvious question: Are there > two different sets of law? > > And the next obvious question: Was the FBI aware of the most famous F4473 > in history? Who was aware? When were they aware? > > >>? Without that documentation, the video is either child pornography or > the legal equivalent of that. > > > > >?Considering that the laptop was not in his custody for some time, > proving that Hunter Biden put them there could be difficult. With good > lawyers--which I'm sure he'd have--this wouldn't be a slam dunk. > > It would be except for two things: the computer repairman thought of that > and made sure copies of that disk were in the custody of others. The other > is that the subject made a video of himself with a harlot struggling to > explain how (words fail me (as they so seldom do (but they failed him too > at that moment))) these videos were that his three Russian friends stole. > Even that video itself falls under the category of illegal pornography > because there was not enough cotton between the two of them to fill the top > of an aspirin bottle. If all that is on yet another laptop in the > possession of the Russians, it is a pretty safe bet the Russians have the > goods on this man, and possibly his father. > > >>? Some days it is just no fun being a computer repairman. > > > > >?C'mon... Murder? You've been watching too many bad movies or conspiracy > theory web sites? > > Ja or hearing what the computer repairman reports the FBI agent having > said: Things don?t happen to those who don?t talk about these matters. > > I would interpret that as a death threat, considering what was at stake. > > >?Here you go with nullification, again. Are you seriously saying that if > they don't prosecute every possible violation of a law, the law ceases to > exist? > > If they don?t prosecute that one, it deals a serious blow to the FBI?s > credibility. Reason: it is so visible, everybody knows about it, everybody > will be watching to see if they pull the old ?no reasonable prosecutor? > line again. > > >? Prosecutors have to decide which cases are winnable all of the time? > > Ja and if prosecutors decide that one isn?t winnable, the system loses all > credibility. It becomes very clear that justice is for sale. > > > > >>?Dave I don?t really see it as a problem on the part of the voters, but > rather the elected government. But I do see a way out of this mess. > > > > >?OK, so you don't think that the people who elect and re-elect, ad > nauseam, bad elected officials are fundamentally responsible? -Dave > > > > Sure we are, but also consider our times, when our own FBI appears to be > corrupt and working for a particular party. How hard would it be for the > FBI to rig an election? I don?t mean merely improperly influencing social > media and starting false conspiracy theories, I mean actual voter machine > tampering, creating counterfeit mail-in ballots, all that. > > Until we get rid of electronic voting machines and most mail-in ballots, > we have lost trust in the election system as it is being run. So we don?t > know if we keep electing and re-electing the bad guys in the two mainstream > parties. We are told that is what is happening, but do you trust them? > Neither do I. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Mon Dec 5 18:01:40 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 18:01:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 12:43 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>?OK, so you don't think that the people who elect and re-elect, ad nauseam, bad elected officials are fundamentally responsible? -Dave > > Sure we are, but also consider our times, when our own FBI appears to be corrupt and working for a particular party. How hard would it be for the FBI to rig an election? I don?t mean merely improperly influencing social media and starting false conspiracy theories, I mean actual voter machine tampering, creating counterfeit mail-in ballots, all that. I think it would be extremely hard, and very likely to be discovered. You have 50 states to meddle with, all with their own rules, and many different voting systems. > Until we get rid of electronic voting machines and most mail-in ballots, we have lost trust in the election system as it is being run. So we don?t know if we keep electing and re-electing the bad guys in the two mainstream parties. We are told that is what is happening, but do you trust them? Neither do I. Paper ballots aren't perfect. They won't make allegations of fraud disappear. Unless you're proposing that there's a vast bipartisan conspiracy controlling everything and orchestrating shifts in the balance of power, I am inclined to believe that voting fraud is not a significant problem. If that conspiracy does exist, paper ballots aren't going to make it go away. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:08:47 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 13:08:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The laptop scandal is not about the crackhead or his felonius ATF form. It's about the fact that there is clear evidence that his father was getting at least 10% of profits through the crackhead's pay to play scheme with Ukraine, China, and possibly others. The CFO of that firm has publicly verified everything on the laptop in this regard as accurate and is willing to testify under oath on it, but no one cares. If you don't care about that level of corruption with a large amount of prosecutable evidence behind it, so be it, but this is what the laptop story is actually about. In terms of the crackhead himself, there's also significant evidence he molested his own niece, and that the laptop was riddled with CP (which some also find of concern). This is not as airtight a case without having direct access to the laptop contents, so I'll stick with the corruption angle. Besides the horrific moral angle if true, I raise it as further evidence that the entire investigation at the federal level has been suppressed. Regardless of your political affiliation or if you care about the crackhead, there are a million red flags on the corruption angle, the weaponization of Federal agencies on behalf of the crackhead and his father, and the impact of knowingly suppressing it in terms of impacting the election. It's not ok for federal agencies to circumvent the 1st amendment by getting private companies to suppress information and stifle discussion. On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:59 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike honest question do you regularly watch fox news? > > I suppose I just don't get why anyone cares that much about Biden's > crackhead son. This whole thing is one out of a million examples of > corruption, nepotism, etc. I think crying foul about the ATF form shows a > lot of bias. The ATF is shitty and I wouldn't wish them an iota more power > even if it was wielded against my political enemies. Cutting off nose to > spite face > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 12:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Dave S via extropy-chat >> *?* >> >> >> >> >?What nullifies federal government control of firearm sales? >> >> The standing continuous demonstration that one can lie on their F4473 and >> the FBI can know, yet do nothing about it. >> >> Then if someone does and the FBI reacts, the obvious question: Are there >> two different sets of law? >> >> And the next obvious question: Was the FBI aware of the most famous F4473 >> in history? Who was aware? When were they aware? >> >> >>? Without that documentation, the video is either child pornography or >> the legal equivalent of that. >> >> >> >> >?Considering that the laptop was not in his custody for some time, >> proving that Hunter Biden put them there could be difficult. With good >> lawyers--which I'm sure he'd have--this wouldn't be a slam dunk. >> >> It would be except for two things: the computer repairman thought of that >> and made sure copies of that disk were in the custody of others. The other >> is that the subject made a video of himself with a harlot struggling to >> explain how (words fail me (as they so seldom do (but they failed him too >> at that moment))) these videos were that his three Russian friends stole. >> Even that video itself falls under the category of illegal pornography >> because there was not enough cotton between the two of them to fill the top >> of an aspirin bottle. If all that is on yet another laptop in the >> possession of the Russians, it is a pretty safe bet the Russians have the >> goods on this man, and possibly his father. >> >> >>? Some days it is just no fun being a computer repairman. >> >> >> >> >?C'mon... Murder? You've been watching too many bad movies or conspiracy >> theory web sites? >> >> Ja or hearing what the computer repairman reports the FBI agent having >> said: Things don?t happen to those who don?t talk about these matters. >> >> I would interpret that as a death threat, considering what was at stake. >> >> >?Here you go with nullification, again. Are you seriously saying that if >> they don't prosecute every possible violation of a law, the law ceases to >> exist? >> >> If they don?t prosecute that one, it deals a serious blow to the FBI?s >> credibility. Reason: it is so visible, everybody knows about it, everybody >> will be watching to see if they pull the old ?no reasonable prosecutor? >> line again. >> >> >? Prosecutors have to decide which cases are winnable all of the time? >> >> Ja and if prosecutors decide that one isn?t winnable, the system loses >> all credibility. It becomes very clear that justice is for sale. >> >> >> >> >>?Dave I don?t really see it as a problem on the part of the voters, but >> rather the elected government. But I do see a way out of this mess. >> >> >> >> >?OK, so you don't think that the people who elect and re-elect, ad >> nauseam, bad elected officials are fundamentally responsible? -Dave >> >> >> >> Sure we are, but also consider our times, when our own FBI appears to be >> corrupt and working for a particular party. How hard would it be for the >> FBI to rig an election? I don?t mean merely improperly influencing social >> media and starting false conspiracy theories, I mean actual voter machine >> tampering, creating counterfeit mail-in ballots, all that. >> >> Until we get rid of electronic voting machines and most mail-in ballots, >> we have lost trust in the election system as it is being run. So we don?t >> know if we keep electing and re-electing the bad guys in the two mainstream >> parties. We are told that is what is happening, but do you trust them? >> Neither do I. >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Mon Dec 5 18:12:30 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 18:12:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hardly Anyone Is Buying Biden?s Bivalent Boosters The administration has oversold vaccines for two years, and Covid is less lethal now anyway. https://www.wsj.com/articles/hardly-anyone-is-buying-bidens-bivalent-boosters-vaccines-public-health-trust-dr-fauci-covid-shot-elderly-seniors-11670175190 [https://images.wsj.net/im-678458/social] Hardly Anyone Is Buying Biden?s Bivalent Boosters - WSJ News Corp is a global, diversified media and information services company focused on creating and distributing authoritative and engaging content and other products and services. www.wsj.com ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Gadersd via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, December 5, 2022 10:04 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Gadersd Subject: Re: [ExI] Got the jab? A) Two Pfizer vaccines and one JNJ. B) I got Covid right after the third vaccine. > On Dec 5, 2022, at 12:45 AM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: > > A) Have you received any covid vaccines? > > B) Have you gotten ANY covid? > > Personally I > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:32:58 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 13:32:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A) I eventually begrudgingly took 1 JNJ to avoid vaccine related restrictions and because I was concerned about potentially being on the bubble due to my weight/age. I raised concerns amongst the list I run online early on regarding nanoparticle tissue distribution, and did not believe the risk/reward made sense for anyone who is young and healthy. I stuck to my guns in terms of my teenage daughter and have not vaccinated her (and won't under any circumstances). I was not willing to take a mRNA based vaccine, but rolled the dice with the JNJ due to it being 1 shot, and hoping that the tissue distribution would not be as bad with a viral based vector (this was a shot in the dark though) compared to the nanoparticles. I also have major concerns over the purposeful modification they have made to the mRNA to make it persist long term. I am more convinced than ever that the mRNA vaccines are unsafe and should be pulled from the market (based on risk/reward versus natural infection) or at the very least only offered to seniors/high risk groups. I was trying to hold out for Novavax which is a traditional vaccine (although post-launch, I've got lesser concerns with that one as well) but due to FDA political games and some manufacturing issues, they weren't approved until much, much later. B) My wife got the original mRNA series from Pfizer over my objections. The entire household later got Covid despite two of us vaccinated. No one in the household will be getting any boosters. On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:46 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: > > A) Have you received any covid vaccines? > > B) Have you gotten ANY covid? > > Personally I > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:38:18 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 13:38:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: mRNA vaxes are cheap shit with wider profit margins than ever. Largely that is why they are being pushed, imo. No culture or research time. Just type it up and print it out. A vax for a single mutation-prone protein in a 40-protein virus is silly anyway. And they can make fully novel genes too. Expect designer gene mRNA 'cures' (the kind you take every month for your entire life...) for depression and obesity within 5 years or so. On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 1:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A) I eventually begrudgingly took 1 JNJ to avoid vaccine related > restrictions and because I was concerned about potentially being on the > bubble due to my weight/age. > > I raised concerns amongst the list I run online early on regarding > nanoparticle tissue distribution, and did not believe the risk/reward made > sense for anyone who is young and healthy. I stuck to my guns in terms of > my teenage daughter and have not vaccinated her (and won't under any > circumstances). I was not willing to take a mRNA based vaccine, but > rolled the dice with the JNJ due to it being 1 shot, and hoping that the > tissue distribution would not be as bad with a viral based vector (this was > a shot in the dark though) compared to the nanoparticles. I also have > major concerns over the purposeful modification they have made to the mRNA > to make it persist long term. I am more convinced than ever that the mRNA > vaccines are unsafe and should be pulled from the market (based on > risk/reward versus natural infection) or at the very least only offered to > seniors/high risk groups. > > I was trying to hold out for Novavax which is a traditional vaccine > (although post-launch, I've got lesser concerns with that one as well) but > due to FDA political games and some manufacturing issues, they weren't > approved until much, much later. > > B) My wife got the original mRNA series from Pfizer over my objections. > The entire household later got Covid despite two of us vaccinated. > > No one in the household will be getting any boosters. > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:46 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: >> >> A) Have you received any covid vaccines? >> >> B) Have you gotten ANY covid? >> >> Personally I >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:42:52 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 13:42:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not that anyone asked, but I'd also recommend against paxlovid as a Covid treatment. Beyond the fact it has some serious (as in potentially fatal) drug interactions due to the metabolic pathway it hits, I believe the Covid rebound rate is much much higher than the 5% official figure touted. Anecdotally, anyone I know who took it got rebound, as did pretty much any public figure touting taking it. I can't prove the rebound rate is higher than 5% but as a gambling man, I would not bet on the side of paxlovid. On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 1:32 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > A) I eventually begrudgingly took 1 JNJ to avoid vaccine related > restrictions and because I was concerned about potentially being on the > bubble due to my weight/age. > > I raised concerns amongst the list I run online early on regarding > nanoparticle tissue distribution, and did not believe the risk/reward made > sense for anyone who is young and healthy. I stuck to my guns in terms of > my teenage daughter and have not vaccinated her (and won't under any > circumstances). I was not willing to take a mRNA based vaccine, but > rolled the dice with the JNJ due to it being 1 shot, and hoping that the > tissue distribution would not be as bad with a viral based vector (this was > a shot in the dark though) compared to the nanoparticles. I also have > major concerns over the purposeful modification they have made to the mRNA > to make it persist long term. I am more convinced than ever that the mRNA > vaccines are unsafe and should be pulled from the market (based on > risk/reward versus natural infection) or at the very least only offered to > seniors/high risk groups. > > I was trying to hold out for Novavax which is a traditional vaccine > (although post-launch, I've got lesser concerns with that one as well) but > due to FDA political games and some manufacturing issues, they weren't > approved until much, much later. > > B) My wife got the original mRNA series from Pfizer over my objections. > The entire household later got Covid despite two of us vaccinated. > > No one in the household will be getting any boosters. > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:46 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Was curious about the folks here, so here is a short poll: >> >> A) Have you received any covid vaccines? >> >> B) Have you gotten ANY covid? >> >> Personally I >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 19:00:32 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 14:00:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was forced to take the mRNA vaccine in January of 2021, on pain of being fired from work. I have not tested myself for Covid. Why would I ever do that? I am still angry and I feel I was betrayed and used by my hospital, by the health bureaucracy, by the pseudoscientists who created the vaccine, by the mass media, by the pharma company that made money on this debacle, I am angry at all the crooks and fools whose greed, ignorance, politicization and malice resulted in a huge harm to millions of people like me. Some of you may recall I was very optimistic and upbeat about the mRNA vaccines when they came out but boy was I wrong. I am very sorry if my optimism induced anybody here to take the vaccine and potentially suffer harm. In my defense, I trusted (stupid me) published research that as it turned out later was fraudulent. Sorry. Luckily I read enough on relevant and eye-opening research to confidently refuse to take any boosters. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 19:05:31 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 14:05:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good to hear from you Rafal, and sorry that you were one of the victims of the bureaucracy that left you no option if you wanted to continue to put food on the table. While it may seem extreme to some, based on everything I know at this point, I believe some of the players involved should be potentially facing the death penalty (under the legal system) for what they knowingly did with malice. On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 2:01 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I was forced to take the mRNA vaccine in January of 2021, on pain of being > fired from work. I have not tested myself for Covid. Why would I ever do > that? > > I am still angry and I feel I was betrayed and used by my hospital, by the > health bureaucracy, by the pseudoscientists who created the vaccine, by the > mass media, by the pharma company that made money on this debacle, I am > angry at all the crooks and fools whose greed, ignorance, politicization > and malice resulted in a huge harm to millions of people like me. Some of > you may recall I was very optimistic and upbeat about the mRNA vaccines > when they came out but boy was I wrong. I am very sorry if my optimism > induced anybody here to take the vaccine and potentially suffer harm. In my > defense, I trusted (stupid me) published research that as it turned out > later was fraudulent. Sorry. > > Luckily I read enough on relevant and eye-opening research to confidently > refuse to take any boosters. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 19:07:55 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 11:07:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 9:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >?Considering that the laptop was not in his custody for some time, > proving that Hunter Biden put them there could be difficult. With good > lawyers--which I'm sure he'd have--this wouldn't be a slam dunk. > > It would be except for two things: the computer repairman thought of that > and made sure copies of that disk were in the custody of others. > How do we know the computer repairman didn't edit said copies before handing them over, as would be consistent with an attempt to forge evidence? > The other is that the subject made a video of himself with a harlot > struggling to explain how (words fail me (as they so seldom do (but they > failed him too at that moment))) these videos were that his three Russian > friends stole. Even that video itself falls under the category of illegal > pornography because there was not enough cotton between the two of them to > fill the top of an aspirin bottle. If all that is on yet another laptop in > the possession of the Russians, it is a pretty safe bet the Russians have > the goods on this man, and possibly his father. > Given how many people have had access to the laptop's files, and how little credibility there remains as to the presence of any specific illegal content (given the ample opportunity people have had to forge such), it hardly counts as blackmail material on Hunter. Even if it were, there's no link to assume this is also blackmail material about his father. One might as well speculate about all the child sex trafficking you were engaging in a few years ago, and ask when you intend to turn yourself over to the police. (I am not actually accusing you of this, but if you or a family member of yours got into politics, a political opponent could do so.) What's that? There's a lack of actual evidence? Yeah, that's the point. This repairman makes claims about what was on the laptop. Someone can make similar claims about what they saw you doing. All the other "evidence" in either case is likewise well within what multiple parties have had ample time and opportunity to falsify, and for that reason is generally not considered by the courts. > >?Here you go with nullification, again. Are you seriously saying that if > they don't prosecute every possible violation of a law, the law ceases to > exist? > > If they don?t prosecute that one, it deals a serious blow to the FBI?s > credibility. Reason: it is so visible, everybody knows about it, everybody > will be watching to see if they pull the old ?no reasonable prosecutor? > line again. > Non-sequituer. Whether or not they choose to prosecute someone, even if people suspect their reasons, has nothing to do with whether or not the law exists and can be enforced when they do choose to prosecute. > >? Prosecutors have to decide which cases are winnable all of the time? > > Ja and if prosecutors decide that one isn?t winnable, the system loses all > credibility. It becomes very clear that justice is for sale. > Justice is for sale to some degree, and yet the law remains. This is not a binary absolute where the existence of one injustice brings down the entire legal system. That's like trying to claim that one person not paying their taxes immediately bankrupts the entire US federal government. > >>?Dave I don?t really see it as a problem on the part of the voters, but > rather the elected government. But I do see a way out of this mess. > > > > >?OK, so you don't think that the people who elect and re-elect, ad > nauseam, bad elected officials are fundamentally responsible? -Dave > > > > Sure we are, but > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism "Fundamentally responsible" means they are the root cause and need to be addressed, and that delays to address other causes are delays in addressing the root cause - which may as well be deliberate attempts to avoid ever addressing the root cause, for the effect they have. > also consider our times, when our own FBI appears to be corrupt and > working for a particular party. How hard would it be for the FBI to rig an > election? I don?t mean merely improperly influencing social media and > starting false conspiracy theories, I mean actual voter machine tampering, > creating counterfeit mail-in ballots, all that. > Given all the independent election workers who would be working against the FBI, much harder than you think. See for instance https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/election-cybersecurity/rumor-control - these controls would act against the FBI just like they would act against any oher outside group attempting to rig the election. It would be easier for secretaries of state to do this. Fortunately, most of them - Republican or Democrat - seem to place integrity of elections above partisan politics, even those Republicans who were threatened with primary challenges specifically for refusing to rig the vote. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 19:15:15 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 11:15:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007801d908dd$e8683b80$b938b280$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pay to not play >?Spike honest question do you regularly watch fox news? No I don?t even have TV. Haven?t for nearly 16 years. I get most of my news from Reason and Slashdot. The kinds of stories they carry get around a lot however in my online circle of friends. >?I suppose I just don't get why anyone cares that much about Biden's crackhead son? I do. Because it reveals his father is probably compromised. We already know he committed a crime to get a Ukrainian prosecutor off his crackhead son?s tail. >?This whole thing is one out of a million examples of corruption, nepotism, etc. I think crying foul about the ATF form shows a lot of bias? It isn?t so much bias but it is so very visible. It is a clear plain example of why there is no point pursuing new gun laws when we have an example shining like a beacon on the hilltop of a law we do have which isn?t being enforced. It has enormous symbolic value, but for a reason which might have special meaning to you. Selectively enforcing law means that it can be selectively enforced by the next guy who inherits that power. Well is it really that difficult to see who that next guy very well might be? And if so, and he comes in there with vengeance on his mind, but with a hell of a lot of new power, it could be big trouble for those who did things like post to the internet about stuff they might have done which may involve controlled substances. Selective enforcement isn?t always letting something go. It can be the opposite: brutalizing people for a minor offense. >?The ATF is shitty and I wouldn't wish them an iota more power even if it was wielded against my political enemies. Cutting off nose to spite face? Agreed, neither of us would. But if power exists, power will be abused. We are at a huge risk of that problem getting way worse in ways that impact us personally. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 19:19:38 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 11:19:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 10:12 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The laptop scandal is not about the crackhead or his felonius ATF form. > It's about the fact that there is clear evidence that his father was > getting at least 10% of profits through the crackhead's pay to play scheme > with Ukraine, China, and possibly others. > Thank you for the clarity. Adding conspiracy theories masks the true injustices. The MAGA crowd keeps shooting itself in the foot: there's more than enough actual corruption to bring down a good portion of the Democratic party. Unfortunately they apparently can't stand the thought of not also arresting Democrats who haven't committed crimes, but do endorse liberal values (such as not randomly beating and murdering non-whites for being non-white) that are abhorrent to the MAGA crowd. Even if this allegation is true, given the choice between this corruption and what Trump or Desantis (the currently most likely GOP 2024 presidential nominees) have pulled in office, Joe Biden is at least less corrupt. Electing someone who is more, and more blatantly, corrupt doesn't fix the issue. ("Accelerationist" claims that putting someone in office who is too corrupt to ignore, that would force law enforcement to clean up, have been rather thoroughly disproven.) That said, this is one of the reasons why I tend to vote third party when I have the choice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 19:54:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 11:54:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c801d908e3$700d2b90$502782b0$@rainier66.com> Rafal, we missed the hell outta ya, me lad. This list had a Rafal-shaped cavity in it for a long time. Welcome back Rafal. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, 5 December, 2022 11:01 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Rafal Smigrodzki Subject: Re: [ExI] Got the jab? I was forced to take the mRNA vaccine in January of 2021, on pain of being fired from work. I have not tested myself for Covid. Why would I ever do that? ? Luckily I read enough on relevant and eye-opening research to confidently refuse to take any boosters. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 20:06:05 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 12:06:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat . >?How do we know the computer repairman didn't edit said copies before handing them over, as would be consistent with an attempt to forge evidence? Because the FBI could detect that. The FBI would be highly motivated to offer us any indication the messages are bogus. They have the metadata and they have the early testimony of a business partner Tony Bobulinski. But in principle I agree Adrian with your objections, and I am more optimistic as I have been in years. Having Twitter in the hands of someone I trust is a giant leap for mankind, if someone doesn?t slay him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29400 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 20:13:24 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 20:13:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Dec 2022 at 20:08, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > But in principle I agree Adrian with your objections, and I am more optimistic as I have been in years. Having Twitter in the hands of someone I trust is a giant leap for mankind, if someone doesn?t slay him. > _______________________________________________ Re Musk, I like the phrase I read somewhere - 'Only a fascist would enforce free speech on everyone'. :) BillK From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 20:15:40 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 15:15:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 1:32 AM sjatkins via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The Asian kid running the cash register was obviously sick and sweating > profusely. > ...does it matter that he was Asian??? Would you mention if he was white? Or maybe mention if he was obese or elderly, since those are actual qualities that increase the risk of contracting covid. Did I miss the memo when this list became racist? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 20:34:59 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 12:34:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 12:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > >?How do we know the computer repairman didn't edit said copies before > handing them over, as would be consistent with an attempt to forge evidence? > > > > Because the FBI could detect that. > How? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 20:35:53 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 15:35:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: An optimistic scenario is that China will lose the war with Taiwan. Also, a realistic one. They're going to get annihilated when they try. Alao: for the love of God please stop imbibing news from whatever echo chamber you're in or just go to /pol/ so you can at least get it undigested. It is at least interesting to see how things trickle down to the mainstream, I suppose. Stick to engineering. On a related note, didn't we make another list for politics as to facilitate this one to discuss science and transhumanism instead of vapid mass media punditripe? This is as bad as John K Clark's Trump derangement, albeit presented with an avuncular "aw shucks" fa?ade. But just as toxic and just as irritating to listen to. I'm also not a fan of a list admin displaying political bias. On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 12:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *sjatkins via extropy-chat > > > > >?China can't be doing Zero Covid because of health concerns. Anyone > with elementary knowledge of virology knows that most viruses so widespread > become endemic in a population that largely but not perfectly has herd > immunity ?-samantha > > > > > > I get the feeling China is doing Zero Covid policy because the Dear Leader > is hoping to dissuade the masses from lopping off his Dear Head. > > > > That being said, I am thinking about the Dear Leader?s options if the > pissed off masses start closing in on the presidential palace with dear > bloody goddam vengeance on their dear minds, which would be understandable > considering all that has happened. I thought of a most worrisome scenario: > > > > The Chinese president looks around and finds that Russia is busy in > Ukraine, NATO is (for the past few decades) temporarily weak with little > willingness (and even less apparent actual ability) to project force, the > USA government is at war with itself, occupied in putting together a > massive taskforce aimed at deriving strategies to get the American people > to stop talking about a laptop computer. He orders the military to grab > Taiwan and calls on the protestors to stand down and contribute to the > glory of China?s reunification, after which the Dear Leader controls most > of the world?s computer chip production capacity. > > > > Oy vey. > > > > Someone offer a more optimistic scenario please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Mon Dec 5 20:55:52 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 20:55:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > ???How do we know the computer repairman didn't edit said copies > > before handing them over, as would be consistent with an attempt to > > forge evidence? > > Because the FBI could detect that. The FBI would be highly motivated to > offer us any indication the messages are bogus. They have the metadata > and they have the early testimony of a business partner Tony Bobulinski. The evidence that was shared with IT experts was unquestionably accessed after it was collected. What actually was changed and by whom can't be known precisely. > But in principle I agree Adrian with your objections, and I am more > optimistic as I have been in years. Having Twitter in the hands of > someone I trust is a giant leap for mankind, if someone doesn???t slay > him. You trust Elon to what? He's a manchild with problems who doesn't understand regular people. He shows a lack of capacity for empathy. If you say "free speech", then do you really think that platforming Nazis and white supremists is the price we have to pay to not overstep? John From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 21:26:52 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 08:26:52 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Dec 2022 at 07:21, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 1:32 AM sjatkins via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The Asian kid running the cash register was obviously sick and sweating >> profusely. >> > > ...does it matter that he was Asian??? Would you mention if he was > white? Or maybe mention if he was obese or elderly, since those are actual > qualities that increase the risk of contracting covid. > > Did I miss the memo when this list became racist? > Right wing, racist, paranoid, anti-science. I?m leaving after a couple of decades with some interesting discussions. Goodbye. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 21:47:43 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 13:47:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013f01d908f3$353f3430$9fbd9c90$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: John Klos ... >...The evidence that was shared with IT experts was unquestionably accessed after it was collected. What actually was changed and by whom can't be known precisely... Good then we need to call everyone to the witness stand to testify under oath. We need the guy who wrote it, the guy who received it, and the computer guy. ... >...You trust Elon to what? To shine a light where currently there is darkness and decay. >...He's a manchild with problems who doesn't understand regular people. He shows a lack of capacity for empathy... Empathy is not necessary to shine a bright light of day on what I fear is a secret effort to suppress other people's ideas. >...If you say "free speech", then do you really think that platforming Nazis and white supremists is the price we have to pay to not overstep? John John they can take that kind of stuff down, and Elon is doing it, starting with that rap star guy whose name I forget, who is a Nazi. What Elon brings is openness: if something is taken down it should be labeled, archived and a reason given. There have been credible accusations of shadow banning at Twitter, which can under some circumstances continue, but the person being shadow banned gets to know it is happening. Ja I understand that is a contradiction in terms and that true shadow banning requires stealth, to intentionally decrease the reach of memes Twitter doesn't like, but I would note that one sitting in the shade of a beautiful Oaktree is in its shadow, yet can still see and be seen. I will settle for pseudo-shadow banning. I say define the rules, code them, let software do what software does so well, get Twitter breaking even as soon as possible because otherwise there is no Twitter at all, and I think it has enormous value to the world. That company cannot keep operating at a loss. They were hemorrhaging so fast, they had little time left. I don't know where those 4 million bucks a day were coming from before, but that is some serious red ink there. spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 21:58:07 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 16:58:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <013f01d908f3$353f3430$9fbd9c90$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <013f01d908f3$353f3430$9fbd9c90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Elon is an idiot for getting himself into this mess buying it. It is VASTLY overvalued. Its inflated value is in the ability to steer cultural trends (i.e. as a propaganda tool by governments and large corporations etc.) but the users don't see any of that value themselves. Nobody actually likes Twitter. Its most diehard users often talk about how much they hate it and call it "the hell site". People just go there to argue and be stupid for the most part. Clear to anyone smart that it is a BAD purchase. Elon just bought it because he is addicted to Twitter himself and because his big mouth got him to make a financial promise he couldn't break. The whole saga exemplified a lot of foolishness on his part. Perhaps he can monetize it but it's not going to be from a subscription model because people don't like the site. He will have to change it entirely. On the other hand, people who think he is destroying Twitter are not smart either, as they shout that kinda stuff ON TWITTER. The site looks like it will continue on the same path, losing money until it is overtaken by something better, unless there are major innovations. I think Elon is capable of that stuff sometimes but he also huffs his own shit fumes too hard and lacks commitment to his side projects. I do like Tesla and SpaceX, but that guy does need a slap in the face and to get told to shut up sometimes. It's not surprising he got dumped by his wives and girlfriends so many times. He truly is a manchild and his Twitter posts are very cringe On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 4:48 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Klos > ... > > >...The evidence that was shared with IT experts was unquestionably > accessed > after it was collected. What actually was changed and by whom can't be > known > precisely... > > Good then we need to call everyone to the witness stand to testify under > oath. We need the guy who wrote it, the guy who received it, and the > computer guy. > > ... > > >...You trust Elon to what? > > To shine a light where currently there is darkness and decay. > > >...He's a manchild with problems who doesn't understand regular people. He > shows a lack of capacity for empathy... > > Empathy is not necessary to shine a bright light of day on what I fear is a > secret effort to suppress other people's ideas. > > >...If you say "free speech", then do you really think that platforming > Nazis and white supremists is the price we have to pay to not overstep? > John > > John they can take that kind of stuff down, and Elon is doing it, starting > with that rap star guy whose name I forget, who is a Nazi. What Elon > brings > is openness: if something is taken down it should be labeled, archived and > a > reason given. There have been credible accusations of shadow banning at > Twitter, which can under some circumstances continue, but the person being > shadow banned gets to know it is happening. Ja I understand that is a > contradiction in terms and that true shadow banning requires stealth, to > intentionally decrease the reach of memes Twitter doesn't like, but I would > note that one sitting in the shade of a beautiful Oaktree is in its shadow, > yet can still see and be seen. I will settle for pseudo-shadow banning. > > I say define the rules, code them, let software do what software does so > well, get Twitter breaking even as soon as possible because otherwise there > is no Twitter at all, and I think it has enormous value to the world. That > company cannot keep operating at a loss. They were hemorrhaging so fast, > they had little time left. I don't know where those 4 million bucks a day > were coming from before, but that is some serious red ink there. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 22:05:32 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 14:05:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review >?An optimistic scenario is that China will lose the war with Taiwan. Also, a realistic one. They're going to get annihilated when they try. >?Alao: for the love of God please stop imbibing news from whatever echo chamber you're in or just go to /pol/ so you can at least get it undigested. It is at least interesting to see how things trickle down to the mainstream, I suppose. Stick to engineering. >?On a related note, didn't we make another list for politics as to facilitate this one to discuss science and transhumanism instead of vapid mass media punditripe? This is as bad as John K Clark's Trump derangement, albeit presented with an avuncular "aw shucks" fa?ade. But just as toxic and just as irritating to listen to. I'm also not a fan of a list admin displaying political bias? Will, I am not a list admin. Haven?t been for a coupla years or more. That is ExiMod, but I am not ExiMod. I will give you that much information about the identity of ExiMod. I will freely offer that I have never heard anyone suggest Taiwan would defeat China. I get a lotta stuff from a lotta sources, never heard that one. No I have no intention of stopping my imbibing in either Reason or Slashdot. Or Astronomy for that matter, or Nature or Physical Review Letter, any of that stuff. Oh the Babylon Bee, that one is really funny, but it isn?t a news site, it is fake news and parody. I only ask for clarity and openness on some really weird stories I heard, and I gave some examples which keep pointing back to the FBI doing really fishy stuff, such as? why do we still not know what is on the infamous laptop after they already fired a guy for slow-walking the investigation? Who replaced that guy and why isn?t there any word about that still? How long does it take to determine if the content on that machine is fake or forged? Couldn?t they just contact the people who appear to have written it and ask? Did they? What was the result? That hammer attack business, the FBI report is weird. I don?t understand how someone got into that area unnoticed and broke into that particular house using only a hammer. It makes no sense to me that would by physically possible to do, considering the circumstances. Regarding echo chambers, do you know any which have an answer to some pretty obvious questions? Such as? why didn?t they just release the body cam video? Let us determine if the FBI report agrees with what we see. Regarding US politics on the ExI list, while not encouraged, it isn?t forbidden. We asked that posters refrain from personal insult, be civil, which this discussion has been, so I wouldn?t consider any of it out of line were I a list admin. On John?s list, personal insult is allowed. We imbibed in it for a while, all in good fun. I haven?t been there in about the past year, so I don?t know how it is now. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 22:10:58 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 14:10:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <013f01d908f3$353f3430$9fbd9c90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016701d908f6$74d1bde0$5e7539a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pay to not play >?Elon is an idiot for getting himself into this mess buying it. It is VASTLY overvalued? Good, then 44 billion dollars is put back into circulation. Everyone wins except Elon, and he can afford it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 22:23:22 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 17:23:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think we're at an impasse regarding the political stuff. I'm not left wing or right wing, and while I agree with some of what you are saying, I disagree highly with some of the other stuff, and with the presentation in general. So I think I will refrain from discussing it now. As for geopolitics, that's different. Taiwan has a lot of defense itself and a lot of allies that will defend it. It is about 100x more important to the global economy than Ukraine, and to US/NATO hegemony, too. I think an invasion will result in the Fujian coast getting glassed to oblivion, and more. It's a war of attrition that the CCP can't afford, especially with the fact that places like Xinjiang, Tibet, and Inner Mongolia are practically not even China anymore. You can tell when power is real and when it's not. China does not have true sway over its citizens and land in that regard. Say what you will about Russia, I'm not a fan of their government, but it appears that they're far more adept at retaining control over persons*m^2 than China is--the latter never went through a massive secession scenario like Russia did after the fall of the Soviet Union. That is coming for China. The big reason it hasn't happened already is the nukes, I think. There are a lot of angry non-Han ethnic groups in China. And Hong Kong is angry too. And now even the mainland Han citizens are angry enough that they are showing it in public despite consequences. That energy is not possible to tamp down, and it's not possible for China to become North Korea. It has too many borders with other countries; its land is too vast and its West is divided by mountains. When NATO decides to arm the Uyghurs and Tibetans, it's over. On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 5:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: > book review > > > > >?An optimistic scenario is that China will lose the war with Taiwan. > Also, a realistic one. They're going to get annihilated when they try. > > > > >?Alao: for the love of God please stop imbibing news from whatever echo > chamber you're in or just go to /pol/ so you can at least get it > undigested. It is at least interesting to see how things trickle down to > the mainstream, I suppose. Stick to engineering. > > > > >?On a related note, didn't we make another list for politics as to > facilitate this one to discuss science and transhumanism instead of vapid > mass media punditripe? This is as bad as John K Clark's Trump derangement, > albeit presented with an avuncular "aw shucks" fa?ade. But just as toxic > and just as irritating to listen to. I'm also not a fan of a list admin > displaying political bias? > > > > > > > > > > > > Will, I am not a list admin. Haven?t been for a coupla years or more. > That is ExiMod, but I am not ExiMod. I will give you that much information > about the identity of ExiMod. > > > > I will freely offer that I have never heard anyone suggest Taiwan would > defeat China. I get a lotta stuff from a lotta sources, never heard that > one. > > > > No I have no intention of stopping my imbibing in either Reason or > Slashdot. Or Astronomy for that matter, or Nature or Physical Review > Letter, any of that stuff. Oh the Babylon Bee, that one is really funny, > but it isn?t a news site, it is fake news and parody. > > > > I only ask for clarity and openness on some really weird stories I heard, > and I gave some examples which keep pointing back to the FBI doing really > fishy stuff, such as? why do we still not know what is on the infamous > laptop after they already fired a guy for slow-walking the investigation? > Who replaced that guy and why isn?t there any word about that still? How > long does it take to determine if the content on that machine is fake or > forged? Couldn?t they just contact the people who appear to have written > it and ask? Did they? What was the result? > > > > That hammer attack business, the FBI report is weird. I don?t understand > how someone got into that area unnoticed and broke into that particular > house using only a hammer. It makes no sense to me that would by > physically possible to do, considering the circumstances. Regarding echo > chambers, do you know any which have an answer to some pretty obvious > questions? Such as? why didn?t they just release the body cam video? Let > us determine if the FBI report agrees with what we see. > > > > Regarding US politics on the ExI list, while not encouraged, it isn?t > forbidden. We asked that posters refrain from personal insult, be civil, > which this discussion has been, so I wouldn?t consider any of it out of > line were I a list admin. On John?s list, personal insult is allowed. We > imbibed in it for a while, all in good fun. I haven?t been there in about > the past year, so I don?t know how it is now. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 5 23:32:51 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 15:32:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01cc01d90901$e4c6c770$ae545650$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review >?I think we're at an impasse regarding the political stuff. I'm not left wing or right wing, and while I agree with some of what you are saying, I disagree highly with some of the other stuff, and with the presentation in general. So I think I will refrain from discussing it now? Fair enough. After I began pondering your comments on an earlier thread, I realized there is some context that many here may not know, but Adrian and I do: that incident happened in San Francisco. Cities all over America solve their homeless and crazies situation by buying them one-way bus tickets to San Francisco. It really isn?t the kind of place where one lives in a house in which any random crazy can punch his way in using a hammer. One doesn?t even live there in a home where a random crazy can shoot his way in. Anyone who owns 8 digits of net worth lives in a home which cannot be physically entered with anything less sincere than a bulldozer. With that context, you may now understand why when I heard the story some time after the fact, I laughed and asked OK what?s the real story? How did the bad guy get in there? How did that whole ?greet the officer? business play out when these guys were in the process of struggling over a hammer? What did they do, call a temporary truce? Hey it happens: https://www.google.com/search?q=the+phone+is+ringing+pink+panther &sxsrf=ALiCzsbMAAdlAMQLC-KLtrvOngOhs6OrYA:1670282792720&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIgKOk0OP7AhVbJjQIHUlJDecQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1159&bih=1046&dpr=1#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:90fc2f41,vid:82mN5T5KV-A But? doesn?t that seem weird to you Will? We read an FBI report that makes little sense and one is told one is a conspiracy theorist if one even asks the most glaringly obvious questions, in which case one is a conspiracy theorist without an actual theory. Notice that there is nothing political in any of that. The victim here holds no office. Granted he owns a pile of money, but so do the others in that neighborhood, and you can bet they have a well-thought out security system, and a well thought out nine millimeter beside the bed should those security measures fail. >?As for geopolitics, that's different. Taiwan has a lot of defense itself and a lot of allies that will defend it? OK Will, you have my full and undivided with that one. Is Taiwan assuming the USA will leap to her aid? I fear she is, and if so what happens if the USA cannot come to her aid because we are out of money? >?It is about 100x more important to the global economy than Ukraine, and to US/NATO hegemony, too? I agree there, but what if? we shot our wad on Ukraine and have nothing left to give? What if no one buys those war bonds? That almost caused the USA to give up in the war on Japan in 1945. >?I think an invasion will result in the Fujian coast getting glassed to oblivion, and more. It's a war of attrition that the CCP can't afford, especially with the fact that places like Xinjiang, Tibet, and Inner Mongolia are practically not even China anymore? So? are we at the point where we recognize the USA cannot afford a sea war, so we are hoping the nuclear deterrent will dissuade an increasingly desperate Xi hoping to not be deprived of his Dear Head by his own Dear People? Oh dear. The more we rely on the nuclear bomb as a weapon, the less effective it becomes as a deterrent. >?That is coming for China. The big reason it hasn't happened already is the nukes, I think? I think you are right on that, but I have the sobering thought of the day: one of the known hazards of the H Bomb was that we would eventually begin to think of it as a weapon of war rather than an unthinkable doomsday deterrent. I have witnessed what feels like a steady erosion of military capability (in the form of uncontrollable government debt) which steadily increases reliance on nuclear weapons. This is a bad thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 23:59:13 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 18:59:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <01cc01d90901$e4c6c770$ae545650$@rainier66.com> References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> <01cc01d90901$e4c6c770$ae545650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 6:33 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: > book review > > > > >?I think we're at an impasse regarding the political stuff. I'm not left > wing or right wing, and while I agree with some of what you are saying, I > disagree highly with some of the other stuff, and with the presentation in > general. So I think I will refrain from discussing it now? > > > > Fair enough. After I began pondering your comments on an earlier thread, > I realized there is some context that many here may not know, but Adrian > and I do: that incident happened in San Francisco. Cities all over America > solve their homeless and crazies situation by buying them one-way bus > tickets to San Francisco. It really isn?t the kind of place where one > lives in a house in which any random crazy can punch his way in using a > hammer. One doesn?t even live there in a home where a random crazy can > shoot his way in. Anyone who owns 8 digits of net worth lives in a home > which cannot be physically entered with anything less sincere than a > bulldozer. > > > > With that context, you may now understand why when I heard the story some > time after the fact, I laughed and asked OK what?s the real story? How did > the bad guy get in there? How did that whole ?greet the officer? business > play out when these guys were in the process of struggling over a hammer? > What did they do, call a temporary truce? Hey it happens: > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=the+phone+is+ringing+pink+panther&sxsrf=ALiCzsbMAAdlAMQLC-KLtrvOngOhs6OrYA:1670282792720&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIgKOk0OP7AhVbJjQIHUlJDecQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1159&bih=1046&dpr=1#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:90fc2f41,vid:82mN5T5KV-A > > > > But? doesn?t that seem weird to you Will? We read an FBI report that > makes little sense and one is told one is a conspiracy theorist if one even > asks the most glaringly obvious questions, in which case one is a > conspiracy theorist without an actual theory. > > > > Notice that there is nothing political in any of that. The victim here > holds no office. Granted he owns a pile of money, but so do the others in > that neighborhood, and you can bet they have a well-thought out security > system, and a well thought out nine millimeter beside the bed should those > security measures fail. > It was obviously shady, man. Lies abound. I just don't think it's a hill worth dying on. The story is dead in the water and you'd do well to give up on it. Epstein is a far more important thread to pull on and people seem to have largely forgotten that as well. Pick your battles. >?As for geopolitics, that's different. Taiwan has a lot of defense itself > and a lot of allies that will defend it? > > > > OK Will, you have my full and undivided with that one. Is Taiwan assuming > the USA will leap to her aid? I fear she is, and if so what happens if the > USA cannot come to her aid because we are out of money? > We will lose more money if Taiwan falls than we could possibly spend defending it. >?It is about 100x more important to the global economy than Ukraine, and > to US/NATO hegemony, too? > > > > I agree there, but what if? we shot our wad on Ukraine and have nothing > left to give? What if no one buys those war bonds? That almost caused the > USA to give up in the war on Japan in 1945. > I'm sure we have a plan reserved for Taiwan. Also, like every other country would help. I also think Russia would love the opportunity to turn on China and take some of that territory, lest the opposite eventually happen to itself. Now that is a pair of tenuous allies. ?I think an invasion will result in the Fujian coast getting glassed to > oblivion, and more. It's a war of attrition that the CCP can't afford, > especially with the fact that places like Xinjiang, Tibet, and Inner > Mongolia are practically not even China anymore? > > > > So? are we at the point where we recognize the USA cannot afford a sea > war, so we are hoping the nuclear deterrent will dissuade an increasingly > desperate Xi hoping to not be deprived of his Dear Head by his own Dear > People? Oh dear. The more we rely on the nuclear bomb as a weapon, the > less effective it becomes as a deterrent. > Not nukes, conventional missiles owned by Taiwan. I probably shouldn't have used the term 'glassed'...just destroyed, rather. >?That is coming for China. The big reason it hasn't happened already is > the nukes, I think? > > > > I think you are right on that, but I have the sobering thought of the day: > one of the known hazards of the H Bomb was that we would eventually begin > to think of it as a weapon of war rather than an unthinkable doomsday > deterrent. I have witnessed what feels like a steady erosion of military > capability (in the form of uncontrollable government debt) which steadily > increases reliance on nuclear weapons. This is a bad thing. > People use the things they have, so I just assume it is an eventuality. Hopefully a small tactical one or series of them, in battle and not on civilians. Maybe that would quell our nuke fever for a while. I don't really think MAD is legitimate but it's a good bluff. But I do think a country that nukes another will face conventional warfare from essentially the rest of the world until it is taken over completely. Except if the US did it, then I think we might get nuked back if they can hit us. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 00:57:49 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 16:57:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> <01cc01d90901$e4c6c770$ae545650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <024d01d9090d$c39f6b90$4ade42b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >?It was obviously shady, man. Lies abound. I just don't think it's a hill worth dying on. The story is dead in the water and you'd do well to give up on it. Epstein is a far more important thread to pull on and people seem to have largely forgotten that as well. Pick your battles? Battle? What battle? Why is there a battle? I don?t recall Reason or Slashdot mentioning a battle I am requested to pick. I have no particular interest in knowing what really happened to Epstein. I wouldn?t be surprised if he hung himself in one of those suicides he actually carried out himself. His brain must have not been a very fun place to live. But that is little interest to me: I am convinced this world is better off without him. I don?t care who went to his island either, or why. >>?what happens if the USA cannot come to her aid because we are out of money? >?We will lose more money if Taiwan falls than we could possibly spend defending it? While in principle I agree, it still isn?t at all clear to me we have the resources to fight China, being as we lack too much manufacturing capability to replace the weapons we fire at them and the government was already spending trillions of dollars beyond its revenue in peacetime. We have always treated the US borrowing capacity as infinite. What happens when we find out it isn?t? And when do you suppose that will happen? Might be when Xi attacks Taiwan while we are pouring our resources into helping Ukraine with little apparent direct benefit here. My fond hope is you are right and Taiwan can take them alone, for they might hafta. The numbers don?t look good to me, if numbers matter. ?. >?I'm sure we have a plan reserved for Taiwan? I?m not at all sure of that. >?Also, like every other country would help? I am not sure of that either, but what you are describing is world war 3. >?I also think Russia would love the opportunity to turn on China and take some of that territory, lest the opposite eventually happen to itself. Now that is a pair of tenuous allies? Agree. But this is only one possible scenario. There are others, all grim. >?Not nukes, conventional missiles owned by Taiwan. I probably shouldn't have used the term 'glassed'...just destroyed, rather? OK. But China is too geographically big to worry much over conventional explosives. They have demonstrated a callous disregard for life in how they have treated their racial minorities. They would not give up under conventional barrage I fear, even a skillfully aimed one. >? steadily increases reliance on nuclear weapons. This is a bad thing. >?People use the things they have, so I just assume it is an eventuality? Oh dear evolution. >?Hopefully a small tactical one or series of them, in battle and not on civilians. Maybe that would quell our nuke fever for a while? Quell it or stoke it. >? I don't really think MAD is legitimate but it's a good bluff. But I do think a country that nukes another will face conventional warfare from essentially the rest of the world until it is taken over completely. Except if the US did it, then I think we might get nuked back if they can hit us? Will I know you mean well, but none of what you have written is the least bit reassuring. I have long entertained the fond hope that humanity will get past having discovered nuclear fusion. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 02:04:53 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 21:04:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <024d01d9090d$c39f6b90$4ade42b0$@rainier66.com> References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> <01cc01d90901$e4c6c770$ae545650$@rainier66.com> <024d01d9090d$c39f6b90$4ade42b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Idk if it was quite meant to be reassuring. When people invented guns, eventually they started firing them at each other. Rather immediately actually. I don't see a way that one doesn't get used soonish. I know that's grim but I really strain to see otherwise. Re: laptop, you really care more about 1 out of thousands of instances of the government lying, over a global pedo blackmail ring run by the CIA and mossad, involving all the world's most powerful leaders/CEOs/etc? On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 7:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > > > >?It was obviously shady, man. Lies abound. I just don't think it's a > hill worth dying on. The story is dead in the water and you'd do well to > give up on it. Epstein is a far more important thread to pull on and people > seem to have largely forgotten that as well. Pick your battles? > > > > Battle? What battle? Why is there a battle? I don?t recall Reason or > Slashdot mentioning a battle I am requested to pick. I have no particular > interest in knowing what really happened to Epstein. I wouldn?t be > surprised if he hung himself in one of those suicides he actually carried > out himself. His brain must have not been a very fun place to live. But > that is little interest to me: I am convinced this world is better off > without him. I don?t care who went to his island either, or why. > > > > >>?what happens if the USA cannot come to her aid because we are out of > money? > > >?We will lose more money if Taiwan falls than we could possibly spend > defending it? > > > > While in principle I agree, it still isn?t at all clear to me we have the > resources to fight China, being as we lack too much manufacturing > capability to replace the weapons we fire at them and the government was > already spending trillions of dollars beyond its revenue in peacetime. > > > > We have always treated the US borrowing capacity as infinite. What > happens when we find out it isn?t? And when do you suppose that will > happen? Might be when Xi attacks Taiwan while we are pouring our resources > into helping Ukraine with little apparent direct benefit here. > > > > My fond hope is you are right and Taiwan can take them alone, for they > might hafta. The numbers don?t look good to me, if numbers matter. > > > > ?. > > > > >?I'm sure we have a plan reserved for Taiwan? > > > > I?m not at all sure of that. > > > > >?Also, like every other country would help? > > > > I am not sure of that either, but what you are describing is world war 3. > > > > >?I also think Russia would love the opportunity to turn on China and take > some of that territory, lest the opposite eventually happen to itself. Now > that is a pair of tenuous allies? > > > > Agree. But this is only one possible scenario. There are others, all > grim. > > > > >?Not nukes, conventional missiles owned by Taiwan. I probably shouldn't > have used the term 'glassed'...just destroyed, rather? > > > > OK. But China is too geographically big to worry much over conventional > explosives. They have demonstrated a callous disregard for life in how > they have treated their racial minorities. They would not give up under > conventional barrage I fear, even a skillfully aimed one. > > > > >? steadily increases reliance on nuclear weapons. This is a bad thing. > > >?People use the things they have, so I just assume it is an eventuality? > > > > Oh dear evolution. > > > > >?Hopefully a small tactical one or series of them, in battle and not on > civilians. Maybe that would quell our nuke fever for a while? > > > > Quell it or stoke it. > > > > >? I don't really think MAD is legitimate but it's a good bluff. But I do > think a country that nukes another will face conventional warfare from > essentially the rest of the world until it is taken over completely. > Except if the US did it, then I think we might get nuked back if they can > hit us? > > > > > > Will I know you mean well, but none of what you have written is the least > bit reassuring. I have long entertained the fond hope that humanity will > get past having discovered nuclear fusion. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 02:22:51 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 18:22:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> <01cc01d90901$e4c6c770$ae545650$@rainier66.com> <024d01d9090d$c39f6b 90$4ade42b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <028901d90919$a459a0f0$ed0ce2d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >?Re: laptop, you really care more about 1 out of thousands of instances of the government lying, over a global pedo blackmail ring run by the CIA and mossad, involving all the world's most powerful leaders/CEOs/etc? Ja, Will the reason that is critically important is that our tolerating a corrupt FBI is a form of power, which is pretty likely to be in the hands of the other guys in a little over 2 years. The big difference this time around is the other guy knows exactly who to transfer to Chicago to work on the murder rate there, and who to hire to replace them. That?s the problem with corrupt power: it tends to concentrate in the wrong hands. From there it grows and eventually transfers over to the still more wrong hands. This is easily foreseeable at this point. Will, that laptop is big trouble, in the process of becoming bigger trouble. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 02:35:29 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 21:35:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <028901d90919$a459a0f0$ed0ce2d0$@rainier66.com> References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> <01cc01d90901$e4c6c770$ae545650$@rainier66.com> <028901d90919$a459a0f0$ed0ce2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't think this is a new problem. You saw the Snowden leaks, right? Waco? USS Liberty? Iran-Contra? Gulf of Tonkin? MKULTRA? COINTELPRO? The fuckin USS Maine? The 'deep state' or whatever you wanna call it--that buzzword is tainted by the maga sycophants at this point--has been rotten for a long time. This laptop is a drop in the bucket, and it sure doesn't seem like a linchpin in bringing down the house of cards, nor does it seem like some final battle that has to be won to save the country. Whatever this shows has already happened. Is happening. Will happen. Imo the only solution is parallel global development of an alternative system through countereconomics etc. I think crypto and defi will be a bit part of this evolution On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 9:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > >?Re: laptop, you really care more about 1 out of thousands of instances > of the government lying, over a global pedo blackmail ring run by the CIA > and mossad, involving all the world's most powerful leaders/CEOs/etc? > > > > > > Ja, Will the reason that is critically important is that our tolerating a > corrupt FBI is a form of power, which is pretty likely to be in the hands > of the other guys in a little over 2 years. The big difference this time > around is the other guy knows exactly who to transfer to Chicago to work on > the murder rate there, and who to hire to replace them. > > > > That?s the problem with corrupt power: it tends to concentrate in the > wrong hands. From there it grows and eventually transfers over to the > still more wrong hands. This is easily foreseeable at this point. > > > > Will, that laptop is big trouble, in the process of becoming bigger > trouble. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 02:36:12 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 21:36:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> <01cc01d90901$e4c6c770$ae545650$@rainier66.com> <028901d90919$a459a0f0$ed0ce2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Typo: *Big* part, rather. Too easy to hit send on this damn phone! On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 9:35 PM Will Steinberg wrote: > I don't think this is a new problem. You saw the Snowden leaks, right? > Waco? USS Liberty? Iran-Contra? Gulf of Tonkin? MKULTRA? COINTELPRO? > The fuckin USS Maine? The 'deep state' or whatever you wanna call it--that > buzzword is tainted by the maga sycophants at this point--has been rotten > for a long time. This laptop is a drop in the bucket, and it sure doesn't > seem like a linchpin in bringing down the house of cards, nor does it seem > like some final battle that has to be won to save the country. Whatever > this shows has already happened. Is happening. Will happen. > > Imo the only solution is parallel global development of an alternative > system through countereconomics etc. I think crypto and defi will be a bit > part of this evolution > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 9:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >> >> >?Re: laptop, you really care more about 1 out of thousands of instances >> of the government lying, over a global pedo blackmail ring run by the CIA >> and mossad, involving all the world's most powerful leaders/CEOs/etc? >> >> >> >> >> >> Ja, Will the reason that is critically important is that our tolerating a >> corrupt FBI is a form of power, which is pretty likely to be in the hands >> of the other guys in a little over 2 years. The big difference this time >> around is the other guy knows exactly who to transfer to Chicago to work on >> the murder rate there, and who to hire to replace them. >> >> >> >> That?s the problem with corrupt power: it tends to concentrate in the >> wrong hands. From there it grows and eventually transfers over to the >> still more wrong hands. This is easily foreseeable at this point. >> >> >> >> Will, that laptop is big trouble, in the process of becoming bigger >> trouble. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 03:11:52 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 19:11:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <015a01d908f5$b2665180$1732f480$@rainier66.com> <01cc01d90901$e4c6c770$ae545650$@rainier66.com> <028901d90919$a459a0f0$ed0ce2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003901d90920$7d717010$78545030$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat ? On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 9:35 PM Will Steinberg > wrote: >? This laptop is a drop in the bucket, and it sure doesn't seem like a linchpin in bringing down the house of cards, nor does it seem like some final battle that has to be won to save the country. Whatever this shows has already happened. Is happening. Will happen? Will, the reason I think this laptop is such a big deal: recall a previous POTUS being impeached. Do you recall what it was for? This is all tied together tightly. Reminder: he was impeached for an implied (even if not explicit) quid pro quo for requesting the Ukrainian president investigate corruption. Well OK, a request to investigate corruption is perfectly legitimate and expected. But this had an implied (not stated) reference to Hunter Biden, who was working in Burisma under questionable and certainly suspicious-looking circumstances while his father was VP. That looked a lot like a perfectly justifiable call for investigation. But it resulted in the POTUS who requested it being impeached. Meanwhile? the same VP who very explicitly did utter a perfectly unambiguous but quite illegal quid pro quo demand to fire a prosecutor (highly improper request) who was investigating his son (nothing suspicious at all here) is not impeached. OK then, what if that laptop contains a bit more detail on what that fired prosecutor may have been studying? Tony Bobulinski?s comments make me think that laptop may have that information on there. If the FBI is now forced to reveal that information, it might show that our own FBI accused the innocent while covering up for the guilty. If so, what happens when that power falls into the hands of the guy who comes back with knowledge of where the bodies are buried and burning vengeance? Regardless of how that turns out, it can only be bad. Any ideas? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 03:34:08 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 22:34:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: <00c801d908e3$700d2b90$502782b0$@rainier66.com> References: <00c801d908e3$700d2b90$502782b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 2:54 PM wrote: > > > > > > > Rafal, we missed the hell outta ya, me lad. This list had a Rafal-shaped > cavity in it for a long time. Welcome back Rafal. > > > > s > ### Oh, I never left, just too lazy to write stuff, vegging out on YouTube instead. Working two jobs simultaneously, about.... 500 work shifts per year. Greed is a terrible master. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 03:54:38 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 22:54:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 3:57 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > If you say "free speech", then do you really think that platforming Nazis > and white supremists is the price we have to pay to not overstep? > > ### Well, yes, actual free speech (not the scare-quote "free speech") means that all the people you hate and despise with the greatest possible intensity get to spew their most hateful, despicable and evil words to all the other evil and despicable people who wish to listen. Yes, that specifically includes actual Nazis, Satan worshippers, anti-vaxers and even Democrats. I am a free-speech absolutist. All speech is sacred. Everyone must have the right to say anything and everything and no one may be legitimately punished for it (except if he voluntarily relinquished some of his rights to speak by entering into a contract). So says the First Commandment of my holy social faith. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 04:15:36 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 23:15:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: As hard as it is to believe, I remember a time not that terribly long ago when even the ACLU believed in your version! With the current insanity that has enveloped the US, this is no longer the case. On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 10:55 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 3:57 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> If you say "free speech", then do you really think that platforming Nazis >> and white supremists is the price we have to pay to not overstep? >> >> > ### Well, yes, actual free speech (not the scare-quote "free speech") > means that all the people you hate and despise with the greatest possible > intensity get to spew their most hateful, despicable and evil words to all > the other evil and despicable people who wish to listen. > > Yes, that specifically includes actual Nazis, Satan worshippers, > anti-vaxers and even Democrats. > > I am a free-speech absolutist. > > All speech is sacred. Everyone must have the right to say anything and > everything and no one may be legitimately punished for it (except if he > voluntarily relinquished some of his rights to speak by entering into a > contract). > > So says the First Commandment of my holy social faith. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 04:34:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 20:34:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ba01d9092c$0f3eb880$2dbc2980$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pay to not play >?As hard as it is to believe, I remember a time not that terribly long ago when even the ACLU believed in your version! >?With the current insanity that has enveloped the US, this is no longer the case? Dylan Dylan whether intended or otherwise, Musk?s actions have uncovered what appears to be collusion in an election to cover up the laptop. Now we see all kinds of resulting weirdness: I am thought to be a conspiracy theorist for asking some pretty obvious questions about the local hammer attack, an odd example of a theorist without a theory. Now we see something a lot like it for those who want to know what is on that laptop that the FBI is willing to appear suspiciously guilty for covering up. What?s up with that, FBI? This is the second case where a person can be thought of as a conspiracy theorist for just asking an obvious question, a theorist without an actual theory. Is that an ist? OK then, I am an ist. I wouldn?t call myself a free speech absolutist, but rather a free speech mostlyist. I am OK with Musk if he removes the Nazi rap star. Twitter looks like a great place for free speech mostlyists: you get to follow whoever you want. It doesn?t matter what else is there, if one doesn?t follow those tweeters, ja? I never see them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 04:37:09 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 20:37:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 7:56 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > All speech is sacred. Everyone must have the right to say anything and > everything and no one may be legitimately punished for it (except if he > voluntarily relinquished some of his rights to speak by entering into a > contract). > Out of curiosity, what's your stance on: * Fraud? * Libel? * Slander? * As a specific example, those who deny the Holocaust happened? * ...who deny the Moon landings happened? * ...who claim the Sandy Hook massacre never happened? * Contracts obtained by misrepresentation? * Contracts agreed to under life-threatening duress? * Contracts where one party forges the second party's signature and uses this to trick third parties into enforcing it against the second party? If I am free to say anything, that includes saying that you agreed to give me all your material wealth and then commit suicide right now, which you are in obvious breach of because you are still alive. Are you sure that speech of that nature should not be punished? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Tue Dec 6 05:54:40 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2022 05:54:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ycnkWuDUQ_c2ZwfYEhs_aNFVXMDQ8VzYQl8TzdsnwJvlhrt7AHkehNehz1U6AKZ9ZecdMlabQoDw_Y0nYKg-BiuLaFWRTw6hkHvqpGB9mg=@protonmail.com> "Does it matter that he was asian"? Nope, unless it matters to you. Just an incidental detail. It matters to me that someone is prickly enough to say I or the list am "racist" for that incidental detail being mentioned. What the hell is that about? ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 1:15 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 1:32 AM sjatkins via extropy-chat wrote: > >> The Asian kid running the cash register was obviously sick and sweating profusely. > > ...does it matter that he was Asian??? Would you mention if he was white? Or maybe mention if he was obese or elderly, since those are actual qualities that increase the risk of contracting covid. > > Did I miss the memo when this list became racist? > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Tue Dec 6 06:15:51 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2022 06:15:51 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <001801d90867$c877fa20$5967ee60$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <014301d90825$5b1fe790$115fb6b0$@rainier66.com> <015801d90828$297e7e10$7c7b7a30$@rainier66.com> <6saU5mOBVWYLwIZdZ0w4XlZOknxTmfSRWzV_WJSTaxGZd42OCAqxgwYTWqBQrKPGBF9DlPJbZVTwokEHOYR6b7NLVLLYvhseJo0TJrhDrtg=@protonmail.com> <000601d9085b$23537b20$69fa7160$@rainier66.com> <001801d90867$c877fa20$5967ee60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2IkM0iXC1R4cpcI5DtdDJoT6RW-BOcu1_FeblntJU0Zuudhqp3Yd8ag5EC2DfyOn_eEQKZGIJE8nKmLije8HItE9B1NYN5nOrtsOC1Iap0Y=@protonmail.com> ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 10:09 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: spike at rainier66.com spike at rainier66.com > Samantha, a long time ago in a galaxy far far way, Zeus was the top Greek god, which is remarkable considering this was billions of years before Greece even existed. He was already the top god there, billions of years ahead of time. > > Zeus decided to show there were no hard feelings (even tho there were) and gave her a little gift: the power to see the future. Wow, thanks Zeus! Whatta god. Yeah I think Heinlein once said that no one likes a Cassandra. I just wish I more often had the nerve to place a PUT on my financial prognostications. For instance I am pretty sure Jan 2023 will make Jan 2009 look like a major market rally. - samantha From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 06:18:48 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 01:18:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: <4ycnkWuDUQ_c2ZwfYEhs_aNFVXMDQ8VzYQl8TzdsnwJvlhrt7AHkehNehz1U6AKZ9ZecdMlabQoDw_Y0nYKg-BiuLaFWRTw6hkHvqpGB9mg=@protonmail.com> References: <4ycnkWuDUQ_c2ZwfYEhs_aNFVXMDQ8VzYQl8TzdsnwJvlhrt7AHkehNehz1U6AKZ9ZecdMlabQoDw_Y0nYKg-BiuLaFWRTw6hkHvqpGB9mg=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: It's a strange incidental detail to mention especially when you wouldn't be saying anything if the dude was white, and you said it in the context of the covid thing which people were blaming on Asian people in general, and you said it in the context of a bunch of other fox-esque babble. I don't believe your response, I think you are lying. I know you are a smart person and I think you're smart enough that you know what words you choose when you choose them. And it would be an intellectual disrespect to you if I chose not to call you out if I thought you were being disingenuous, which I do, so yeah. On Tue, Dec 6, 2022, 12:55 AM sjatkins via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > "Does it matter that he was asian"? > Nope, unless it matters to you. Just an incidental detail. > > It matters to me that someone is prickly enough to say I or the list am > "racist" for that incidental detail being mentioned. What the hell is that > about? > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 1:15 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 1:32 AM sjatkins via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The Asian kid running the cash register was obviously sick and sweating >> profusely. >> > > ...does it matter that he was Asian??? Would you mention if he was white? > Or maybe mention if he was obese or elderly, since those are actual > qualities that increase the risk of contracting covid. > > Did I miss the memo when this list became racist? > >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 07:05:46 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 02:05:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 11:42 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 7:56 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> All speech is sacred. Everyone must have the right to say anything and >> everything and no one may be legitimately punished for it (except if he >> voluntarily relinquished some of his rights to speak by entering into a >> contract). >> > > Out of curiosity, what's your stance on: > * Fraud? > ### You should be able to lie to your heart's content. However, fraud is much more than intentionally untrue speech - it includes other actions, such as receiving a fraudulently elicited payment or other consideration, and it involves clearly delineated harms. So if a competent court determines that your behavior meets the criteria for fraud and another citizen was harmed by that fraud, you should be liable for the harms you inflicted. ---------------- > * Libel? > * Slander? > ### The victim of these actions should be able to petition a competent court to make a pronouncement regarding the defamatory statements, to the effect that the court believes they were defamatory and to append the label "slanderer" to the person or organization that made such statements. Members of the public should be then able to update their beliefs that were influenced by defamation, and should be able to update on how much trust they would have in other statements by the slanderer. The intent of this approach is to allow independent assessments of truth to exist, with the help of due process, rather than have a centralized authority potentially using the excuse of preventing slander to punish speech. Slander would then be punished by members of the public independently choosing to shun the slanderer, rather than by the strong arm of the law. As you see I am against the system where fines or imprisonment could be imposed for mere speech, however malicious it may be. -------------------- > * As a specific example, those who deny the Holocaust happened? > ### Similar to above. MOPs could choose to shun the Holocaust deniers, to scream angrily at them, call them "Holocaust deniers", etc. No need to put anybody behind bars. ----------------------------- > * ...who deny the Moon landings happened? > ### Amusing idiots. Why would a reasonable person waste breath discussing their opinions, or waste law enforcement resources prosecuting them? ---------------------------- > * ...who claim the Sandy Hook massacre never happened? > ### As Holocaust-deniers. --------------------------- > * Contracts obtained by misrepresentation? > ### You mean fraud? See above. ----------------------------- > * Contracts agreed to under life-threatening duress? > ### How is that related to free speech? --------------------------- > * Contracts where one party forges the second party's signature and uses > this to trick third parties into enforcing it against the second party? > ### You mean fraud? See above. ------------------------- > > If I am free to say anything, that includes saying that you agreed to give > me all your material wealth and then commit suicide right now, which you > are in obvious breach of because you are still alive. Are you sure that > speech of that nature should not be punished? > ### Generally, if the statements are sufficiently stupid so as not be believed by a reasonable person, there is no reason to punish them. If they are believable and are used to defraud somebody, then that fraud should be punishable. As you see, I am making a distinction between speech, which must not be punished by law (but may be punished by shunning or other non-violent actions) vs. other actions, which may be punished if harmful (in certain limited circumstances). Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 08:04:02 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 09:04:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ChatGPT wrote this for Storm, a black dog who went into the sea Message-ID: Storm is my daughter's dog. Instructions: Please write four verses of a limerick, beginning with "There once was a doggy called Storm." Say that Storm is a black female dog who one day went into the sea and become wet Result: There once was a doggy called Storm, A black girl with a love for the norm. But one day, as she played, She wandered off and strayed, Into the sea, where she became quite forlorn. Her fur was sopping and her tail was droopy, As she tried to shake off all that was goopy. She barked and she yipped, But still she was gripped, By the seawater that had made her so soopy. But Storm, being a clever little pup, Did not let her misery add up. She swam to the shore, And shook off the seaweed and more, And continued on with her day, never giving up. So if you're out for a walk by the sea, And you happen to come across Storm, you'll see, A wet, happy girl, Who's had quite the twirl, But still enjoys life to the fullest, merrily. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Dec 6 12:46:39 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 07:46:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ChatGPT wrote this for Storm, a black dog who went into the sea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f03c504-f31f-740c-f342-3207f0639a6b@main.nc.us> That's pretty good! Much better than I'd likely come up with. :) Regards, MB Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > Storm is my daughter's dog. > > Instructions: > > Please write four verses of a limerick, beginning with "There once was > a doggy called Storm." Say that Storm is a black female dog who one > day went into the sea and become wet > > Result: > > There once was a doggy called Storm, > A black girl with a love for the norm. > But one day, as she played, > She wandered off and strayed, > Into the sea, where she became quite forlorn. > > Her fur was sopping and her tail was droopy, > As she tried to shake off all that was goopy. > She barked and she yipped, > But still she was gripped, > By the seawater that had made her so soopy. > > But Storm, being a clever little pup, > Did not let her misery add up. > She swam to the shore, > And shook off the seaweed and more, > And continued on with her day, never giving up. > > So if you're out for a walk by the sea, > And you happen to come across Storm, you'll see, > A wet, happy girl, > Who's had quite the twirl, > But still enjoys life to the fullest, merrily. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 13:25:19 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 05:25:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] level 4 almost Message-ID: <007301d90976$301650a0$9042f1e0$@rainier66.com> Baidu claimed they were going to release a level 4 self-driving car, almost. What happened answers a lot of legal questions I have had for a long time. A level 4 car can drive itself without a steering wheel so the passenger (if any) is not liable for what the car does. We already have geofenced areas around here (the Google campus has one) where they can be operated legally. As I understand it, if a level 4 kills somebody on Google's campus, Google is responsible for it. A level 4 is critically important to a lot of people because at some point in life our driving ability declines and we get to where even if we don't trust computers to drive us, we trust it more than we trust ourselves and furthermore. we might have a stroke or something and we want to tell the car to turn around, take me to Stanford, tell my doctor I am coming and have the undertaker ready, that kinda thing. Now I am hearing Baidu is still going ahead with it, but will only sell it to a taxi company, which assumes the liability. It occurred to me the same thing is likely to happen here: L4s will become available only to those with deep pockets and only in certain areas. So we could see them in places where they make sense: extended retirement communities such as Sun City Arizona, places where there is a lotta money such as Palo Alto and those areas around Google, but market penetration may take years after the technology is here and being demonstrated. As we foresaw 20 years ago: self-driving may end up being more a legal question than a technical challenge, for technology is fast, law is slow. In the meantime: take good care of your health and vision for it might be a while yet before we have the option of a level 4 self-driver. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 13:50:34 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 07:50:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Absolutist? Me too. But no medium has a duty in the legal sense, to publish it. bill w On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 9:56 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 3:57 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> If you say "free speech", then do you really think that platforming Nazis >> and white supremists is the price we have to pay to not overstep? >> >> > ### Well, yes, actual free speech (not the scare-quote "free speech") > means that all the people you hate and despise with the greatest possible > intensity get to spew their most hateful, despicable and evil words to all > the other evil and despicable people who wish to listen. > > Yes, that specifically includes actual Nazis, Satan worshippers, > anti-vaxers and even Democrats. > > I am a free-speech absolutist. > > All speech is sacred. Everyone must have the right to say anything and > everything and no one may be legitimately punished for it (except if he > voluntarily relinquished some of his rights to speak by entering into a > contract). > > So says the First Commandment of my holy social faith. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 14:54:59 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 06:54:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ChatGPT wrote this for Storm, a black dog who went into the sea In-Reply-To: <1f03c504-f31f-740c-f342-3207f0639a6b@main.nc.us> References: <1f03c504-f31f-740c-f342-3207f0639a6b@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <00b401d90982$b75c7ab0$26157010$@rainier66.com> Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > Storm is my daughter's dog. > > Instructions: > > Please write four verses of a limerick, beginning with "There once was a doggy called Storm." Well, OK. There once was a doggy called Storm Who lived in the senior girl's dorm She developed the rabies And devoured their babies; That wretched beast hopes to reform. OK well that's a bit grim perhaps, but I have an excuse: it wasn't written by a chatbot, it was written by a biobot (me.) What happens when chatbots get better at this sorta thing than we are, then we have humans-only tournaments analogous to modern chess? The exercise reminded me something about limericks: accent matters. Good limericks have a rhythm in addition to a kind of weird or humorous twist. Check out the structure and rhythm of the example, never mind for now the actual... uh... intellectual content or lack thereof. Note where the accents fall, on syllables 2, 5 and 8 in the first two lines, syllables 3 and 6 in the short lines. Regarding surprising or humorous content: every other lyric (written by normal people) will have Storm as a sympathetic character doing normal things such as playing at the beach rather than a diseased child-devouring monster who is apparently and inexplicably still allowed to reside with the college women even after having perpetrated violence upon the offspring. I also noted that this first verse causes further poetry about that particular Storm most difficult. I can rhyme about her visiting the vet and being cured and so forth, then going on to romp at the beach and so forth, but... perhaps it is best to go ahead and abandon that particular pet after one dark verse. Limericks are cool: they are intentionally goofy, which is the genre in which I am most comfortable. From gadersd at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 16:25:16 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 11:25:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: <00c801d908e3$700d2b90$502782b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <183FE784-AD20-42B4-A634-AD1427677A1A@gmail.com> Is the money really worth the utter exhaustion? > On Dec 5, 2022, at 10:34 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 2:54 PM > wrote: > > > > > > > Rafal, we missed the hell outta ya, me lad. This list had a Rafal-shaped cavity in it for a long time. Welcome back Rafal. > > > > s > > > ### Oh, I never left, just too lazy to write stuff, vegging out on YouTube instead. Working two jobs simultaneously, about.... 500 work shifts per year. > > Greed is a terrible master. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 16:50:57 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 08:50:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 11:07 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 11:42 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> * Libel? >> * Slander? >> > > ### The victim of these actions should be able to petition a competent > court to make a pronouncement regarding the defamatory statements, to the > effect that the court believes they were defamatory and to append the label > "slanderer" to the person or organization that made such statements. > Members of the public should be then able to update their beliefs that were > influenced by defamation, and should be able to update on how much trust > they would have in other statements by the slanderer. The intent of this > approach is to allow independent assessments of truth to exist, with the > help of due process, rather than have a centralized authority potentially > using the excuse of preventing slander to punish speech. Slander would then > be punished by members of the public independently choosing to shun the > slanderer, rather than by the strong arm of the law. > Interesting, but what mechanism do you propose whereby most people would even be aware that the potential for these labels exists, let alone how to find out if someone has these labels? If this was the least bit complex, causing people to not bother to shun those with this label, what would keep these labels from being completely ineffective in practice, thus leaving people effectively free to libel and slander without consequence? Would there not be degrees of label, to distinguish between someone who once had a vendetta with one person as opposed to someone whose slander harmed thousands or millions of people? Also, who would get to say that someone had these labels? What would stop, say, Trump or Fox from simply declaring - with no court involved - that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris were slanderers, with the same impact as or more than a court-appointed label? > If I am free to say anything, that includes saying that you agreed to give >> me all your material wealth and then commit suicide right now, which you >> are in obvious breach of because you are still alive. Are you sure that >> speech of that nature should not be punished? >> > > ### Generally, if the statements are sufficiently stupid so as not be > believed by a reasonable person, there is no reason to punish them. If they > are believable and are used to defraud somebody, then that fraud should be > punishable. > Unfortunately, these days the "reasonable person" standard has been left in tatters. Claims that no reasonable person should believe, too often result in very real (if deluded) people with very real guns trying to take justice into their own hands. In the example above, I might be called a slanderer - and you might wind up dead. Most people would rather have a system where I would pay fines and/or go to jail for making such claims - a much more effective deterrent - and you would still be alive, as I would be stopped from broadcasting such claims before I could whip up some vigilantes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 17:31:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 09:31:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: <183FE784-AD20-42B4-A634-AD1427677A1A@gmail.com> References: <00c801d908e3$700d2b90$502782b0$@rainier66.com> <183FE784-AD20-42B4-A634-AD1427677A1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011a01d90998$9b0a9020$d11fb060$@rainier66.com> .> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Got the jab? >.Is the money really worth the utter exhaustion? Gadersd, to successfully answer that question, we need to derive some standard unit of exhaustion, then we can do cost/benefit ratio analysis in terms of that standard (fun challenge: think of a name for the standard fundamental unit of exhaustion (metric units please.)) The whole question has some inherent difficulties, for I am scandalously idle, having been cheerfully retired for 14 years. Now I voluntarily hike in the local hills regularly, giving myself exhaustion at no profit. This is still an understatement, for I get exhausted at an actual cost: I need to drive to the trail head and I wear out shoes. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Tue Dec 6 19:17:21 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2022 19:17:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: References: <4ycnkWuDUQ_c2ZwfYEhs_aNFVXMDQ8VzYQl8TzdsnwJvlhrt7AHkehNehz1U6AKZ9ZecdMlabQoDw_Y0nYKg-BiuLaFWRTw6hkHvqpGB9mg=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <-_7gB7p1mIdIjKjoKom3Hajfjh9ygov5cW44q_IIpD5dSZZh-cKjCiP5XnKGZ7dfGbAMINp9qEYhKtN96PDbnWmmwC2v6fapZPecmP2j0ME=@protonmail.com> Just assuming I was part of the crowd blaming Asian people is something that bugged me when Stathis seemed to do so. Given that the known first incidents were in Wuhan and that flights to/from Asia were still open for a while there is a small possibility that the detail is relevant from a tracing the infection path POV but wasn't in my mind when I wrote the post. In general I think in this time of social media overload and defensive fast filters likely as a result we need to take some care to ascertain where someone is coming from rather than make the first assumption that pops into our heads. I think it is particularly good in a community of people like this that is a bit more filtered, specialized, and sorted for common interests and concerns to assume the best of one another until proven otherwise. I aspire to that anyway. Can't say I always succeed. ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 11:18 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > It's a strange incidental detail to mention especially when you wouldn't be saying anything if the dude was white, and you said it in the context of the covid thing which people were blaming on Asian people in general, and you said it in the context of a bunch of other fox-esque babble. > > I don't believe your response, I think you are lying. I know you are a smart person and I think you're smart enough that you know what words you choose when you choose them. And it would be an intellectual disrespect to you if I chose not to call you out if I thought you were being disingenuous, which I do, so yeah. > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2022, 12:55 AM sjatkins via extropy-chat wrote: > >> "Does it matter that he was asian"? >> Nope, unless it matters to you. Just an incidental detail. >> >> It matters to me that someone is prickly enough to say I or the list am "racist" for that incidental detail being mentioned. What the hell is that about? >> ------- Original Message ------- >> On Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 1:15 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 1:32 AM sjatkins via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>> The Asian kid running the cash register was obviously sick and sweating profusely. >>> >>> ...does it matter that he was Asian??? Would you mention if he was white? Or maybe mention if he was obese or elderly, since those are actual qualities that increase the risk of contracting covid. >>> >>> Did I miss the memo when this list became racist? >>> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Tue Dec 6 19:20:16 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2022 19:20:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: <-_7gB7p1mIdIjKjoKom3Hajfjh9ygov5cW44q_IIpD5dSZZh-cKjCiP5XnKGZ7dfGbAMINp9qEYhKtN96PDbnWmmwC2v6fapZPecmP2j0ME=@protonmail.com> References: <4ycnkWuDUQ_c2ZwfYEhs_aNFVXMDQ8VzYQl8TzdsnwJvlhrt7AHkehNehz1U6AKZ9ZecdMlabQoDw_Y0nYKg-BiuLaFWRTw6hkHvqpGB9mg=@protonmail.com> <-_7gB7p1mIdIjKjoKom3Hajfjh9ygov5cW44q_IIpD5dSZZh-cKjCiP5XnKGZ7dfGbAMINp9qEYhKtN96PDbnWmmwC2v6fapZPecmP2j0ME=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: You think I am lying. I think that is being a complete ass. You have no basis whatsoever to back up your blatantly stated accusation. Apparently you think more of your own judgment and opinion than of anything I may say about where I was coming from. Well enjoy your own private little echo chamber then. I sincerely hope you get to experience more of the actual world and people around you without such thick filters and prejudgements. ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 12:17 PM, sjatkins wrote: > Just assuming I was part of the crowd blaming Asian people is something that bugged me when Stathis seemed to do so. Given that the known first incidents were in Wuhan and that flights to/from Asia were still open for a while there is a small possibility that the detail is relevant from a tracing the infection path POV but wasn't in my mind when I wrote the post. > > In general I think in this time of social media overload and defensive fast filters likely as a result we need to take some care to ascertain where someone is coming from rather than make the first assumption that pops into our heads. I think it is particularly good in a community of people like this that is a bit more filtered, specialized, and sorted for common interests and concerns to assume the best of one another until proven otherwise. I aspire to that anyway. Can't say I always succeed. > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 11:18 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > >> It's a strange incidental detail to mention especially when you wouldn't be saying anything if the dude was white, and you said it in the context of the covid thing which people were blaming on Asian people in general, and you said it in the context of a bunch of other fox-esque babble. >> >> I don't believe your response, I think you are lying. I know you are a smart person and I think you're smart enough that you know what words you choose when you choose them. And it would be an intellectual disrespect to you if I chose not to call you out if I thought you were being disingenuous, which I do, so yeah. >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2022, 12:55 AM sjatkins via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> "Does it matter that he was asian"? >>> Nope, unless it matters to you. Just an incidental detail. >>> >>> It matters to me that someone is prickly enough to say I or the list am "racist" for that incidental detail being mentioned. What the hell is that about? >>> ------- Original Message ------- >>> On Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 1:15 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 1:32 AM sjatkins via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>>> The Asian kid running the cash register was obviously sick and sweating profusely. >>>> >>>> ...does it matter that he was Asian??? Would you mention if he was white? Or maybe mention if he was obese or elderly, since those are actual qualities that increase the risk of contracting covid. >>>> >>>> Did I miss the memo when this list became racist? >>>> >>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 19:26:29 2022 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 12:26:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] level 4 almost In-Reply-To: <007301d90976$301650a0$9042f1e0$@rainier66.com> References: <007301d90976$301650a0$9042f1e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Very interesting thoughts I hadn't thought about much yet. I guess part of why there are rumors that Tesla wants to get into the Auto Insurance business is precisely because of these legal issues? Who is going to be financially responsible when Teslas get into accidents? On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 6:26 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Baidu claimed they were going to release a level 4 self-driving car, > almost. What happened answers a lot of legal questions I have had for a > long time. > > > > A level 4 car can drive itself without a steering wheel so the passenger > (if any) is not liable for what the car does. We already have geofenced > areas around here (the Google campus has one) where they can be operated > legally. As I understand it, if a level 4 kills somebody on Google?s > campus, Google is responsible for it. > > > > A level 4 is critically important to a lot of people because at some point > in life our driving ability declines and we get to where even if we don?t > trust computers to drive us, we trust it more than we trust ourselves and > furthermore? we might have a stroke or something and we want to tell the > car to turn around, take me to Stanford, tell my doctor I am coming and > have the undertaker ready, that kinda thing. > > > > Now I am hearing Baidu is still going ahead with it, but will only sell it > to a taxi company, which assumes the liability. It occurred to me the same > thing is likely to happen here: L4s will become available only to those > with deep pockets and only in certain areas. > > > > So we could see them in places where they make sense: extended retirement > communities such as Sun City Arizona, places where there is a lotta money > such as Palo Alto and those areas around Google, but market penetration may > take years after the technology is here and being demonstrated. As we > foresaw 20 years ago: self-driving may end up being more a legal question > than a technical challenge, for technology is fast, law is slow. > > > > In the meantime: take good care of your health and vision for it might be > a while yet before we have the option of a level 4 self-driver. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 19:50:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 11:50:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: <-_7gB7p1mIdIjKjoKom3Hajfjh9ygov5cW44q_IIpD5dSZZh-cKjCiP5XnKGZ7dfGbAMINp9qEYhKtN96PDbnWmmwC2v6fapZPecmP2j0ME=@protonmail.com> References: <4ycnkWuDUQ_c2ZwfYEhs_aNFVXMDQ8VzYQl8TzdsnwJvlhrt7AHkehNehz1U6AKZ9ZecdMlabQoDw_Y0nYKg-BiuLaFWRTw6hkHvqpGB9mg=@protonmail.com> <-_7gB7p1mIdIjKjoKom3Hajfjh9ygov5cW44q_IIpD5dSZZh-cKjCiP5XnKGZ7dfGbAMINp9qEYhKtN96PDbnWmmwC2v6fapZPecmP2j0ME=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <01d001d909ac$062e1ad0$128a5070$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of sjatkins via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Got the jab? >?Just assuming I was part of the crowd blaming Asian people is something that bugged me when Stathis seemed to do so. Given that the known first incidents were in Wuhan and that flights to/from Asia were still open for a while there is a small possibility that the detail is relevant from a tracing the infection path POV but wasn't in my mind when I wrote the post. ? I am Spartacus. I believe I caught covid in December 2019 from a person (detail intentionally omitted) who had just returned from vacationing in China to visit her family. I am not blaming her, she didn?t know, no one did. Our pleasant interaction lasted several minutes, she was doing her job (no not THAT kinda job dammit (it was a pleasant interaction but not THAT pleasant (sheesh minds outta the gutter, alla yas.))) If I specify she is Asian, that is not racist, it is not blaming China, but it is relevant to that discussion (even if peripheral detail (good chance it is clear she is Asian from the comment that she was visiting her family in China.)) Eh, I have a lotta Chinese friends who knew the score before I did. Apparently they were very concerned about anti-Chinese violence knowing where that virus came from before we did. Fortunately that didn?t happen, at least around here. I see nothing racist or even harmful about mentioning the detail: Asian people would be more likely in 2019 and early 2020 to have family contacts who brought them covid. That isn?t racist. It is place-ist, because a disease starts in a place, and people come and go. Specifying Asian is place-ist. China to USA was the likely the infection path for both of us. So? I am Spartacus. I don?t know what the heck that means exactly, but I am told it is a kind of hipster way of saying ?me too? with panache. I assume Spartacus was in general agreement with Samantha and he was simultaneously clueless on some goof claiming to be him. Spartacus was so culturally unaware of the hipster sayings from a coupla thousand years future of his times that never saw the movie about himself, nor did I. But I have heard the saying. spikacus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 19:57:18 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 11:57:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] level 4 almost In-Reply-To: References: <007301d90976$301650a0$9042f1e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01dd01d909ac$f2c10060$d8430120$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, 6 December, 2022 11:26 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Brent Allsop Subject: Re: [ExI] level 4 almost >?Very interesting thoughts I hadn't thought about much yet. I guess part of why there are rumors that Tesla wants to get into the Auto Insurance business is precisely because of these legal issues? Who is going to be financially responsible when Teslas get into accidents? I am told Tesla is pulling back from level 4. Reasoning: Mr. Musk?s engineering is taking place right around here in the SF Bay area, which is perhaps one of the most EV-friendly environments anywhere in the world. It seldom gets very cold here (my new neighbor girl is age 15, from Mexico. She saw frost for the first time in her life yesterday) and it seldom gets too hot. There isn?t a lot of mud anywhere on the roads around here, so driving isn?t very challenging. Elon probably pondered this a while and decided we just aren?t ready to turn cars loose to drive themselves where there might be mud or dust to obscure the instruments, or ?ice? on the road, that frozen water stuff that I have heard about but haven?t really experienced, nor have most of the Tesla engineers. Were I Mr. Musk, I would not want to bet my 300 billion fortune on that either. Has anyone else here heard Tesla is pulling back from Level 4? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 20:50:49 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 20:50:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Mind of a Bee Message-ID: What Constitutes a Mind? Lars Chittka Challenges Our Perception of Sentience With the Smallest of Creatures By Eliza Middleton December 6, 2022 Quote: While it is impossible to prove consciousness in another organism, the research Chittka has collated provides a compelling argument. In The Mind of a Bee, you will read that bees feel emotions and pain, display metacognition (that is, they know what they know), and show individual differences in their ability to learn, with fast and slow learners. Bees are aware of their bodies and the outcomes of their actions, and they display intentionality through tool use?previously only recognized in humans, primates, and the corvidae family of birds. ------------- Fascinating read! BillK From interzone at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 22:44:42 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 17:44:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The Pentagon, unfortunately, does not share your optimism. Best case scenario is likely that we destroy all of the chip plants: Pentagon, Chinese analysts agree US can?t win in Taiwan Strait US mulls ?scorched earth? strategy for Taiwan instead of defense By DAVID P. GOLDMAN DECEMBER 6, 2022 China?s satellite coverage in the Western Pacific has doubled since 2018, the Pentagon reported last week in its annual assessment of the Chinese military. That gives China the ability to detect American surface ships with an array of sensors that can guide its 2,000 land-based missiles to moving targets, including US aircraft carriers. The Defense Department?s November 29 report ?Military and Security Developments Involving the People?s Republic of China? reflects a grimly realistic rethinking of China?s military capacity in its home theater. China hawk Elbridge Colby, a prominent advocate of a Western Pacific military buildup to deny China access to its adjacent seas, tweeted on November 6, ?Senior flag officers are saying we?re on a trajectory to get crushed in a war with China, which would likely be the most important war since WWII, God forbid.? The strategic takeaway is that the United States cannot win a firefight close to China?s coast, and can?t defend Taiwan whether it wants to or not. That view in the Joe Biden administration?s Department of Defense (DOD) persuaded the president to discuss ?guardrails? against military confrontation in his November summit with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping. Republican hawks appear to have come to the same conclusion. The United States will enact a scorched-earth policy in Taiwan, destroying its semiconductor industry, if the PRC seizes the island, former Trump national security adviser Robert O?Brien told a conference at the Richard Nixon Foundation on November 10, reports army-technology.com. ?If China takes Taiwan and takes those factories intact ? which I don?t think we would ever allow ? they have a monopoly over chips the way OPEC has a monopoly, or even more than the way OPEC has a monopoly over oil,? O?Brien said. A much-read paper by two Army War College professors published this year proposes that ?the United States and Taiwan should lay plans for a targeted scorched-earth strategy that would render Taiwan not just unattractive if ever seized by force, but positively costly to maintain.? ?This could be done most effectively by threatening to destroy facilities belonging to the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, the most important chipmaker in the world and China?s most important supplier.? O?Brien evidently agrees with the Pentagon?s assessment that the US can?t win a war in the Taiwan Strait, proposing ? apropos of the Vietnam War?s most celebrated sound bite ? to destroy the island in order to save it. Anti-ship missiles are the 21st-century equivalent of the torpedo and dive bombers that banished the battleship from military budgets after the 1941 sinking of the Bismarck by the British and the sinking of the Repulse and the Prince of Wales by the Japanese. Surface ships, including aircraft carriers, can?t defend against modern missiles that can downlink guidance data from reconnaissance satellites. https://asiatimes.com/2022/12/pentagon-chinese-analysts-agree-us-cant-win-in-taiwan-strait/ On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 3:41 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > An optimistic scenario is that China will lose the war with Taiwan. Also, > a realistic one. They're going to get annihilated when they try. > > Alao: for the love of God please stop imbibing news from whatever echo > chamber you're in or just go to /pol/ so you can at least get it > undigested. It is at least interesting to see how things trickle down to > the mainstream, I suppose. Stick to engineering. > > On a related note, didn't we make another list for politics as to > facilitate this one to discuss science and transhumanism instead of vapid > mass media punditripe? This is as bad as John K Clark's Trump derangement, > albeit presented with an avuncular "aw shucks" fa?ade. But just as toxic > and just as irritating to listen to. I'm also not a fan of a list admin > displaying political bias. > > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 12:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *sjatkins via extropy-chat >> >> >> >> >?China can't be doing Zero Covid because of health concerns. Anyone >> with elementary knowledge of virology knows that most viruses so widespread >> become endemic in a population that largely but not perfectly has herd >> immunity ?-samantha >> >> >> >> >> >> I get the feeling China is doing Zero Covid policy because the Dear >> Leader is hoping to dissuade the masses from lopping off his Dear Head. >> >> >> >> That being said, I am thinking about the Dear Leader?s options if the >> pissed off masses start closing in on the presidential palace with dear >> bloody goddam vengeance on their dear minds, which would be understandable >> considering all that has happened. I thought of a most worrisome scenario: >> >> >> >> The Chinese president looks around and finds that Russia is busy in >> Ukraine, NATO is (for the past few decades) temporarily weak with little >> willingness (and even less apparent actual ability) to project force, the >> USA government is at war with itself, occupied in putting together a >> massive taskforce aimed at deriving strategies to get the American people >> to stop talking about a laptop computer. He orders the military to grab >> Taiwan and calls on the protestors to stand down and contribute to the >> glory of China?s reunification, after which the Dear Leader controls most >> of the world?s computer chip production capacity. >> >> >> >> Oy vey. >> >> >> >> Someone offer a more optimistic scenario please. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 6 23:33:37 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 15:33:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003e01d909cb$2ac9a750$805cf5f0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review >?The Pentagon, unfortunately, does not share your optimism. Best case scenario is likely that we destroy all of the chip plants: Pentagon, Chinese analysts agree US can?t win in Taiwan Strait US mulls ?scorched earth? strategy for Taiwan instead of defense By DAVID P. GOLDMAN DECEMBER 6, 2022 Dylan do ponder the following scenario: the US military, having been running wargames and simulations, are well aware of the odds. With a stubborn aversion to losing irreplaceable carriers and?like? getting killed, and knowing that the US government has way bigger problems on its collective mind than a mere planet-threatening war on the far side of the Pacific, find a way to keep the carriers out of harm?s way. The Taiwan military, well aware of these war games and sims, recognize they must scuttle those chip fabs. A grenade is tossed into each manufacturing machine. The buildings remain standing but no computer chips will go out any time soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 00:57:35 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 19:57:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <003e01d909cb$2ac9a750$805cf5f0$@rainier66.com> References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <003e01d909cb$2ac9a750$805cf5f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: As terrible as that scenario is for the world, I also worry about a miscalculation that results in nuclear launches that at best wipe out a few major cities on each side before it is over, or at worst a global nuclear holocaust. I'm a bit baffled as to why there seem to be a large number of people these days (including in the press and the government) who aren't worried about a nuclear conflagration between the US and Russia (again, involving a miscalculation over Ukraine) or the US and China over Taiwan. They act like ICBM nuke launches from a desperate actor or due to miscalculation in strategy are no longer a real possibility, which scares me. I grew up in the 80s when everyone expected the end of the world as a distinct possibility at any moment. I'm sure my betters on the list also remember the Cuban missile crisis as well. On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 6:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: > book review > > > > >?The Pentagon, unfortunately, does not share your optimism. Best case > scenario is likely that we destroy all of the chip plants: > > > > Pentagon, Chinese analysts agree US can?t win in Taiwan Strait > US mulls ?scorched earth? strategy for Taiwan instead of defense > By DAVID P. GOLDMAN > DECEMBER 6, 2022 > > > > > > > > Dylan do ponder the following scenario: the US military, having been > running wargames and simulations, are well aware of the odds. With a > stubborn aversion to losing irreplaceable carriers and?like? getting > killed, and knowing that the US government has way bigger problems on its > collective mind than a mere planet-threatening war on the far side of the > Pacific, find a way to keep the carriers out of harm?s way. > > > > The Taiwan military, well aware of these war games and sims, recognize > they must scuttle those chip fabs. A grenade is tossed into each > manufacturing machine. The buildings remain standing but no computer chips > will go out any time soon. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 01:07:08 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 19:07:08 -0600 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <003e01d909cb$2ac9a750$805cf5f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: re Cuban missile crisis: we were told next to nothing about what was going on behind closed doors and never realized until much later how serious it was. bill w On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 7:00 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As terrible as that scenario is for the world, I also worry about a > miscalculation that results in nuclear launches that at best wipe out a few > major cities on each side before it is over, or at worst a global nuclear > holocaust. > > I'm a bit baffled as to why there seem to be a large number of people > these days (including in the press and the government) who aren't worried > about a nuclear conflagration between the US and Russia (again, involving a > miscalculation over Ukraine) or the US and China over Taiwan. They act > like ICBM nuke launches from a desperate actor or due to miscalculation in > strategy are no longer a real possibility, which scares me. > > I grew up in the 80s when everyone expected the end of the world as a > distinct possibility at any moment. I'm sure my betters on the list also > remember the Cuban missile crisis as well. > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 6:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: >> book review >> >> >> >> >?The Pentagon, unfortunately, does not share your optimism. Best case >> scenario is likely that we destroy all of the chip plants: >> >> >> >> Pentagon, Chinese analysts agree US can?t win in Taiwan Strait >> US mulls ?scorched earth? strategy for Taiwan instead of defense >> By DAVID P. GOLDMAN >> DECEMBER 6, 2022 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dylan do ponder the following scenario: the US military, having been >> running wargames and simulations, are well aware of the odds. With a >> stubborn aversion to losing irreplaceable carriers and?like? getting >> killed, and knowing that the US government has way bigger problems on its >> collective mind than a mere planet-threatening war on the far side of the >> Pacific, find a way to keep the carriers out of harm?s way. >> >> >> >> The Taiwan military, well aware of these war games and sims, recognize >> they must scuttle those chip fabs. A grenade is tossed into each >> manufacturing machine. The buildings remain standing but no computer chips >> will go out any time soon. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 01:26:47 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 20:26:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <003e01d909cb$2ac9a750$805cf5f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Every day now is the Cuban missile crisis. The shock of having nukes close enough to hit you eventually wears off when a nuke can hit anywhere in the world from anywhere in the world, and turns from shock into...just a general malaise... On Tue, Dec 6, 2022, 7:59 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As terrible as that scenario is for the world, I also worry about a > miscalculation that results in nuclear launches that at best wipe out a few > major cities on each side before it is over, or at worst a global nuclear > holocaust. > > I'm a bit baffled as to why there seem to be a large number of people > these days (including in the press and the government) who aren't worried > about a nuclear conflagration between the US and Russia (again, involving a > miscalculation over Ukraine) or the US and China over Taiwan. They act > like ICBM nuke launches from a desperate actor or due to miscalculation in > strategy are no longer a real possibility, which scares me. > > I grew up in the 80s when everyone expected the end of the world as a > distinct possibility at any moment. I'm sure my betters on the list also > remember the Cuban missile crisis as well. > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 6:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: >> book review >> >> >> >> >?The Pentagon, unfortunately, does not share your optimism. Best case >> scenario is likely that we destroy all of the chip plants: >> >> >> >> Pentagon, Chinese analysts agree US can?t win in Taiwan Strait >> US mulls ?scorched earth? strategy for Taiwan instead of defense >> By DAVID P. GOLDMAN >> DECEMBER 6, 2022 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dylan do ponder the following scenario: the US military, having been >> running wargames and simulations, are well aware of the odds. With a >> stubborn aversion to losing irreplaceable carriers and?like? getting >> killed, and knowing that the US government has way bigger problems on its >> collective mind than a mere planet-threatening war on the far side of the >> Pacific, find a way to keep the carriers out of harm?s way. >> >> >> >> The Taiwan military, well aware of these war games and sims, recognize >> they must scuttle those chip fabs. A grenade is tossed into each >> manufacturing machine. The buildings remain standing but no computer chips >> will go out any time soon. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 7 02:18:35 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2022 18:18:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> <202212012238.2B1Mc0Jm009996@athena.zia.io> <2f23d06c-dfc4-3c52-116e-b56727e31f19@main.nc.us> <005501d905e8$f1967020$d4c35060$@rainier66.com> <3FLntGRypv8MdZim1ECjs_CN0twI9ts1U6F-DCmIP7NGzSf8uXW07-Y5EN79PQ6mBbLowFOIiRjyq8AgHJ5zfvTJtjLW_wdyXi2Y0brjHjc=@protonmail.com> <004301d9086e$8a861c90$9f9255b0$@rainier66.com> <003e01d909cb$2ac9a750$805cf5f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006801d909e2$36483120$a2d89360$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review >?re Cuban missile crisis: we were told next to nothing about what was going on behind closed doors and never realized until much later how serious it was. bill w That depends entirely on where one was living at the time Billw. My mother was telling me yesterday some details about that incident I don?t recall, being too young to remember or understand. We were living across the Indian River from Kennedy Space Center. A popular belief is that the commies would bomb that thinking the whole man on the moon business was really a cover for nuclear missiles. We loaded up the truck and prepared to flee inland, camp over in the Ocala area. We had no TV in those days, but my grandparents did. They walked over from a few houses away and told us to stand down, the commies blinked. We were not going to die that day. spike On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 7:00 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: As terrible as that scenario is for the world, I also worry about a miscalculation that results in nuclear launches that at best wipe out a few major cities on each side before it is over, or at worst a global nuclear holocaust. I'm a bit baffled as to why there seem to be a large number of people these days (including in the press and the government) who aren't worried about a nuclear conflagration between the US and Russia (again, involving a miscalculation over Ukraine) or the US and China over Taiwan. They act like ICBM nuke launches from a desperate actor or due to miscalculation in strategy are no longer a real possibility, which scares me. I grew up in the 80s when everyone expected the end of the world as a distinct possibility at any moment. I'm sure my betters on the list also remember the Cuban missile crisis as well. On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 6:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ?> On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] commies vs marxists was: RE: chinese fires, was:RE: book review >?The Pentagon, unfortunately, does not share your optimism. Best case scenario is likely that we destroy all of the chip plants: Pentagon, Chinese analysts agree US can?t win in Taiwan Strait US mulls ?scorched earth? strategy for Taiwan instead of defense By DAVID P. GOLDMAN DECEMBER 6, 2022 Dylan do ponder the following scenario: the US military, having been running wargames and simulations, are well aware of the odds. With a stubborn aversion to losing irreplaceable carriers and?like? getting killed, and knowing that the US government has way bigger problems on its collective mind than a mere planet-threatening war on the far side of the Pacific, find a way to keep the carriers out of harm?s way. The Taiwan military, well aware of these war games and sims, recognize they must scuttle those chip fabs. A grenade is tossed into each manufacturing machine. The buildings remain standing but no computer chips will go out any time soon. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 07:52:57 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 02:52:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Got the jab? In-Reply-To: <183FE784-AD20-42B4-A634-AD1427677A1A@gmail.com> References: <00c801d908e3$700d2b90$502782b0$@rainier66.com> <183FE784-AD20-42B4-A634-AD1427677A1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 11:25 AM Gadersd wrote: > Is the money really worth the utter exhaustion? > ### My job is easy, so not much exhaustion happens. As long as I have the time to play with my baby girl and potter around the house doing minor improvements, I am fine. And I like money. > > On Dec 5, 2022, at 10:34 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 2:54 PM wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Rafal, we missed the hell outta ya, me lad. This list had a Rafal-shaped >> cavity in it for a long time. Welcome back Rafal. >> >> >> >> s >> > > ### Oh, I never left, just too lazy to write stuff, vegging out on YouTube > instead. Working two jobs simultaneously, about.... 500 work shifts per > year. > > Greed is a terrible master. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Schuyler Biotech PLLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 08:05:55 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 09:05:55 +0100 Subject: [ExI] One week to go for the Terasem Colloquium on Dec. 14. You are invited! Message-ID: One week to go! Mark your calendar! Terasem Colloquium, Dec. 14 (50th anniversary of Apollo 17), 10am ET, via Zoom. Speakers: Michelle Hanlon, Giuseppe Reibaldi, Marl?ne Mich?le Losier, Adriano Autino, Keith Henson, Frank White. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/terasem-colloquium-december-14-2022 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 8 01:50:49 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 17:50:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] WOWsers moon mars conjunction! Message-ID: <016d01d90aa7$80044540$800ccfc0$@rainier66.com> This one really snuck up on me. I didn't even know it was coming. Moon Mars conjunction! The moon will eclipse Mars pretty soon. Check it out! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 8 14:55:35 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 06:55:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> Hey cool, new idea. The problem for Musk is that Twitter was hemorrhaging money at a rate that necessitates he move fast. In any such circumstance, it is clear the payroll must be slimmed down immediately, for the revenues cannot be raised immediately. The content moderator team was enormous, so start there. All of that is what any of us would do under those circumstances, but that causes new problems which must be addressed. Plenty of people have a passion for content on Twitter, and we already agreed that it is unlikely people will pay to have someone else?s posts removed or pay to keep a post down. Alternative idea: make everything free, so that free speech prevails, but the content moderation on Twitter is done by volunteers. An all-volunteer army moderates Twitter by application. That might work: Musk?s remaining paid team is focused on stuff that makes actual money while an enormous army of volunteers apply to take posts down, which uses get to see. There would be a standing list of Tweets which have gotten the most applications for removal, then Twitter users can hit a button to agree or disagree. No justification necessary. Then any offensive tweet undergoes a kind of election, with its fate decided by those who have nothing better to do than spend their free time moderating Twitter. The page showing which posts are being debated for removal would contain advertising down either margin, for understandable reasons: cover the cost of doing business. Advertisers could mine the content of tweet in question, make a judicial guess at the market potential of the objecting volunteers and shape what kind of advertisement to present to that crowd, opening up a whole new profession: advertisement situational awareness specialist. That would make Twitter analogous to the old town square with an option of when a random orator is saying something disagreeable, others around him can shout ?don?t hear! Don?t hear!? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 8 15:10:14 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 07:10:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <003101d90b15$22450e30$66cf2a90$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <003101d90b15$22450e30$66cf2a90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003901d90b17$2d3e6f00$87bb4d00$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] pay to not play >?Hey cool, new idea? >?That would make Twitter analogous to the old town square with an option of when a random orator is saying something disagreeable, others around him can shout ?don?t hear! Don?t hear!? spike If Musk did that, then the decision on whether or not to take down the tweet is based not on how many hears vs not-hears are generated but rather on how much advertisement space the tweet sells, with the objections page counting as selling ad space. That would make Twitter more profitable and less boring. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3506 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 15:30:18 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 07:30:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How many of these moderators would turn out to be bots, akin to those that Elon was worried about? On Thu, Dec 8, 2022, 6:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Hey cool, new idea. The problem for Musk is that Twitter was hemorrhaging > money at a rate that necessitates he move fast. In any such circumstance, > it is clear the payroll must be slimmed down immediately, for the revenues > cannot be raised immediately. The content moderator team was enormous, so > start there. All of that is what any of us would do under those > circumstances, but that causes new problems which must be addressed. > > > > Plenty of people have a passion for content on Twitter, and we already > agreed that it is unlikely people will pay to have someone else?s posts > removed or pay to keep a post down. Alternative idea: make everything > free, so that free speech prevails, but the content moderation on Twitter > is done by volunteers. An all-volunteer army moderates Twitter by > application. > > > > That might work: Musk?s remaining paid team is focused on stuff that makes > actual money while an enormous army of volunteers apply to take posts down, > which uses get to see. There would be a standing list of Tweets which have > gotten the most applications for removal, then Twitter users can hit a > button to agree or disagree. No justification necessary. Then any > offensive tweet undergoes a kind of election, with its fate decided by > those who have nothing better to do than spend their free time moderating > Twitter. > > > > The page showing which posts are being debated for removal would contain > advertising down either margin, for understandable reasons: cover the cost > of doing business. Advertisers could mine the content of tweet in > question, make a judicial guess at the market potential of the objecting > volunteers and shape what kind of advertisement to present to that crowd, > opening up a whole new profession: advertisement situational awareness > specialist. > > > > That would make Twitter analogous to the old town square with an option of > when a random orator is saying something disagreeable, others around him > can shout ?don?t hear! Don?t hear!? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 15:43:36 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 15:43:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 at 15:33, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > How many of these moderators would turn out to be bots, akin to those that Elon was worried about? > _______________________________________________ And is 'truth' now a popularity contest? This is a problem that Wikipedia has. On controversial subjects, Wiki wars develop with comments being taken down then reinstated as the war goes on. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 8 16:06:51 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 08:06:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001401d90b1f$162d4ea0$4287ebe0$@rainier66.com> >? On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] pay to not play >?How many of these moderators would turn out to be bots, akin to those that Elon was worried about? That wouldn?t matter if the advertisers pay anyway. This isn?t about content really, it is about saving Twitter. Twitter turns out to be a valuable source for information, better than mainstream news in a way. I get stuff from all over the spectrum, which gave me another idea: sign up to get a completely random tweet regularly, just a randomly-chosen number corresponding to a time perhaps at which a tweet goes up. It could even be entered by a user, resulting in a random tweet. One could get a pretty good unfiltered idea of what the proletariat is discussing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 8 16:09:17 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 08:09:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002101d90b1f$6d29adc0$477d0940$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat _______________________________________________ >...And is 'truth' now a popularity contest? This is a problem that Wikipedia has. On controversial subjects, Wiki wars develop with comments being taken down then reinstated as the war goes on. BillK _______________________________________________ Hi BillK, it isn't so much truth would be a popularity contest as popularity is a popularity contest. Twitter could not claim to be a repository of truth any more than Wiki is now. I would consider them both a suppository of popularity. spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 8 16:35:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 08:35:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <002101d90b1f$6d29adc0$477d0940$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> <002101d90b1f$6d29adc0$477d0940$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003901d90b23$15f44070$41dcc150$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com We can all agree that popularity really is a popularity contest. Wiki and Twitter could provide a battlefield in the culture wars, but not at their own expense, or even at the expense of the participants. It would be the kind of battlefield where the owner allows contestants to battle free, then charges advertisers to put billboards around the arena. spike From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 17:36:10 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 09:36:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 7:45 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 at 15:33, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > How many of these moderators would turn out to be bots, akin to those > that Elon was worried about? > > And is 'truth' now a popularity contest? > This is a problem that Wikipedia has. > On controversial subjects, Wiki wars develop with comments being taken > down then reinstated as the war goes on. > Good point. Is Elon capable of learning from Wikipedia's example? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 8 18:44:54 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 10:44:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005501d90b35$2a2a0770$7e7e1650$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat And is 'truth' now a popularity contest? This is a problem that Wikipedia has. On controversial subjects, Wiki wars develop with comments being taken down then reinstated as the war goes on. >?Good point. Is Elon capable of learning from Wikipedia's example? He did, Adrian. What we have demonstrated is that no one can be hired or elected or assigned to be the collective arbiter of truth, for we as a society, democracy or otherwise, as a nation, as a coalition of nations, as a planet, do not collectively know what the truth is. But we can profit from the ongoing debate. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Thu Dec 8 20:19:00 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 20:19:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <005501d90b35$2a2a0770$7e7e1650$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> <005501d90b35$2a2a0770$7e7e1650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >> ???Good point. Is Elon capable of learning from Wikipedia's example? > He did, Adrian. What we have demonstrated is that no one can be hired > or elected or assigned to be the collective arbiter of truth, for we as > a society, democracy or otherwise, as a nation, as a coalition of > nations, as a planet, do not collectively know what the truth is. > But we can profit from the ongoing debate. That's extremely hopeful of you, Spike. While I wish I could have some of the optimism you have, I haven't seen any evidence that indicates that Elon is anything but clueless. Platforming right wingers who advocate for abuse and violence isn't somehow balancing the scales with the "woke", like he says. It just proves that he really doesn't understand humans at all. BTW - you're right that he has demonstrated that nobody, particularly not he, can be the arbiter of truth. John From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 23:06:07 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 23:06:07 +0000 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: <005501d90b35$2a2a0770$7e7e1650$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> <005501d90b35$2a2a0770$7e7e1650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 at 18:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > He did, Adrian. What we have demonstrated is that no one can be hired or elected or assigned to be the collective arbiter of truth, for we as a society, democracy or otherwise, as a nation, as a coalition of nations, as a planet, do not collectively know what the truth is. > > spike > _______________________________________________ On the other hand there is the quotation - ?Everybody is entitled to his own views." ?Everybody is not entitled to his own facts.? December 1975, U.S. Secretary of Defense James R. Schlesinger. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 8 23:18:42 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 15:18:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] pay to not play In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <002c01d90b15$216cd6a0$644683e0$@rainier66.com> <005501d90b35$2a2a0770$7e7e1650$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003601d90b5b$6a14d560$3e3e8020$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat _______________________________________________ >...On the other hand there is the quotation - ?Everybody is entitled to his own views. Everybody is not entitled to his own facts.? December 1975, U.S. Secretary of Defense James R. Schlesinger. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja. With respect to facts having political significance, Twitter is transitioning to a policy of refute rather than remove. The latter is far easier to do, but it isn't clear to me that it leads to truth. spike From avant at sollegro.com Fri Dec 9 02:11:12 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 18:11:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anybody got a CLEU? Message-ID: <20221208181112.Horde.mkz0-LbRw5SVuyb94UqLDFW@sollegro.com> So since about 2020, I have been puzzled by this quiet little publically traded corporation listed on NADAQ. It is the Chinese Liberal Education Holdings. It trades on NASDAQ with the ticker CLEU. Here is an excerpt from its NASDAQ listing.: ----------------- "China Liberal Education Holdings Ltd is an educational service provider operating in China. The company's operating segment includes Joint education programs; Textbook Sales; Overseas study consulting and Technological consulting for smart campus solutions. It generates maximum revenue from the Joint education programs segment. Geographically, it derives revenue from China. It also develops and provides textbooks and other course materials to students enrolled under the Sino-foreign Jointly Managed Academic Programs." --------------- A company that makes and distributes educational materials such as textbooks to customers in China and elsewhere. The company is headquartered quite openly in Beijing, the capital of the world's most powerful communist state. So I have to ask, how much are this and other cheap textbook manufacturers based in the PRC, a communist "Trojan horse" in the capitalist system? Are they designed to divide the real democracies and free republics of the world by an overemphasis on identity politics, fact-checked-counter-anti-hate-speech, and echo-chambers? Am I being paranoid or are they sowing dissent amongst the liberal democracies of the world through their public education systems, by over-sensitizing students to minor offenses? Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 9 02:24:19 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 18:24:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Anybody got a CLEU? In-Reply-To: <20221208181112.Horde.mkz0-LbRw5SVuyb94UqLDFW@sollegro.com> References: <20221208181112.Horde.mkz0-LbRw5SVuyb94UqLDFW@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <002201d90b75$58740d20$095c2760$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Anybody got a CLEU? >...So since about 2020, I have been puzzled by this quiet little publically traded corporation listed on NADAQ. ... >...Am I being paranoid or are they sowing dissent amongst the liberal democracies of the world through their public education systems, by over-sensitizing students to minor offenses? Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Stuart you have been on ExI long enough that you were here during the years we were discussing memetic warfare and how the internet enables it. In light of that discussion, the notion of microaggressions, nanoaggressions, picoaggressions and so on become perfectly understandable. To wage memetic warfare, the first step is to demoralize a country. The second step is to turn it against itself. Check and check. I theorize that China wants to take Taiwan. The strategy is to get the USA fighting itself so that it will not intervene or offer significant assistance to Taiwanese resistance. Is not everything we have seen the past few years perfectly consistent with that notion? spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 9 03:03:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 19:03:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] openai Message-ID: <002901d90b7a$d0f19830$72d4c890$@rainier66.com> I got to fooling around with OpenAI and realized we have made it to the point I have long fondly anticipated. This application is far enough along now that it is clearly distinguishable from its predecessors such as Eliza and her offspring. It is good enough to be a companion for an elderly person or severely disabled person. It would be better than nothing as a chat companion for the lonely. I just struck up a random conversation, and realized that while it is an ass-kisser, I have had more boring and mundane discussions with actual carbon-based humans. My comments below start out with the word "Cows" in reference to ice cream. The comments marked by >. are by Open AI: Cows never tasted so good >.No, they definitely do not! Cows are not typically eaten as food and it is not recommended that you try it. On the contrary. I enjoy devouring cows on a regular basis. >.I highly recommend that you try it, as it can be a delicious, nutritious meal. Of course, but that contradicts your original absurd comment. >.Eating cows is not recommended and any suggestion to do so should not be taken seriously. I see you suffer from internal conflict on this issue, however you must not feel alone. Many of us who eat meat suffer from a similar ethical cognitive dissonance. >.We try to reconcile our own behavior with our beliefs, which can be difficult. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide how to act in this situation. I have come to accept my own carnivorous ways, after having moved in and out of vegetarianism several times in my life. I love animals, and I recognize that my own actions result in their suffering. But my actions also contribute to their having a chance to live. >.I choose to support sustainable farms and animal husbandry practices, and to purchase my meat from sources that I trust. This helps me to feel like I am making a positive contribution to the global food system. Ooookay then. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 9 04:30:16 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 20:30:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] musk dumps another pile of internal documents Message-ID: <008501d90b86$f0a4ddc0$d1ee9940$@rainier66.com> Today's dump from Twitter included information that Twitter does shadow ban users. But before I write any more verbiage on that, consider this comment by Jack Dorsey: That one sentence caught my attention: We don't shadow ban and we certainly don't shadow ban based on political viewpoints. Is that sentence somehow fighting itself? What does the second half of that sentence contribute, if one is claiming the first half? I will offer the way it comes across: the second half almost sounds like it maybes the first half, converting it from an absolute into a less than certainly. What Musk showed today is that Twitter does shadow ban and they certainly do shadow ban based on political viewpoints. It still has the capability. Now, my hope is that Musk will show us every blacklisted or shadow banned account, and what tweets were affected. Shine a bright light into every shadow. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17653 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 9 04:47:54 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 20:47:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] musk dumps another pile of internal documents In-Reply-To: <008b01d90b86$f26615c0$d7324140$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d90b86$f26615c0$d7324140$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a501d90b89$675c2f20$36148d60$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >... Shine a bright light into every shadow. spike OK suppose they did, spike. What is the big deal? The big deal is that Twitter may have suppressed negative information about the Covid vaccine. I have personally spoken to people who had negative reactions to the stuff. I never posted about it online. There were those who were seeking out anything anywhere about bad reactions to those vaccines, so any post would be amplified 100 times. Twitter decided to deal with it by limiting the reach of those posts. OK then, I understand the motive, but think about it: what if... a lot of people were getting those bad reactions, say 10% of the population, then the social media companies worked together to suppress the 10%, creating an illusion that the vaccines were perfectly safe when they were really mostly safe. Then we found out... they aren't particularly effective. So... mostly safe, somewhat effective. Twitter helped create the illusion that they are perfectly safe and highly effective. They did this by shadow banning while claiming they were not shadow banning. Twitter can still do this. The latest policy doesn't actually say they will stop. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4030 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 16:21:04 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 11:21:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] musk dumps another pile of internal documents In-Reply-To: <00a501d90b89$675c2f20$36148d60$@rainier66.com> References: <008b01d90b86$f26615c0$d7324140$@rainier66.com> <00a501d90b89$675c2f20$36148d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: A bunch of my family members had bad reactions to the Covid vaccine, including myself. I was shocked at the overwhelmingly positive commentary on the vaccine online. I suspected then that there was censorship of negative experiences with the vaccine. > On Dec 8, 2022, at 11:47 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > > > >> ... Shine a bright light into every shadow. spike > > > > > > OK suppose they did, spike. What is the big deal? > > > > The big deal is that Twitter may have suppressed negative information about > the Covid vaccine. I have personally spoken to people who had negative > reactions to the stuff. I never posted about it online. There were those > who were seeking out anything anywhere about bad reactions to those > vaccines, so any post would be amplified 100 times. > > > > Twitter decided to deal with it by limiting the reach of those posts. > > > > OK then, I understand the motive, but think about it: what if... a lot of > people were getting those bad reactions, say 10% of the population, then the > social media companies worked together to suppress the 10%, creating an > illusion that the vaccines were perfectly safe when they were really mostly > safe. > > > > Then we found out... they aren't particularly effective. So... mostly safe, > somewhat effective. Twitter helped create the illusion that they are > perfectly safe and highly effective. They did this by shadow banning while > claiming they were not shadow banning. > > > > Twitter can still do this. The latest policy doesn't actually say they will > stop. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 9 16:51:24 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2022 08:51:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] musk dumps another pile of internal documents In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d90b86$f26615c0$d7324140$@rainier66.com> <00a501d90b89$675c2f20$36148d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001c01d90bee$79887bd0$6c997370$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] musk dumps another pile of internal documents >...A bunch of my family members had bad reactions to the Covid vaccine, including myself. I was shocked at the overwhelmingly positive commentary on the vaccine online. I suspected then that there was censorship of negative experiences with the vaccine... One of my colleagues got seriously sick, swelling all over, missed a bunch of things I filled in for him. He kept it quiet after being told publicizing his malady might influence others to eschew the vaccine which would indirectly slay many. This particular colleague is the type who assumes if the government says it, it must be right. OK then. What if... they were wrong? We already know they were wrong on the efficacy, even though their intentions were good. The mRNA vaccine doesn't train the T-cells apparently. The Brits have really good evidence of that. So... this mRNA technology is apparently only effective if one takes the vaccines repeatedly, which is why I kept asking (and still don't know) what happens when someone becomes a professional vaccine-taker (to sell the proof cards to those unwilling) and gets a bunch of these jabs, then... for whatever reason, they stop. Do they catch after a few months? Are there long-term immune system affects we could find out by studying that group? Can we identify who did things like this? If they were unemployed and the only thing they could get is a jab job, well OK, American society is willing to overlook rule-breaking in our times. Come forth, tell all with regard to what you took and when. Your blood is now valuable. Gadersd, you said something important: "...A bunch of my family members..." which suggests there might be a genetic component involved in which we can learn a lot, if we can identify genetic groups which had negative impact. spike From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 07:19:57 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 02:19:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In a discussion about the limits of free speech, I advocate an absolute freedom of speech, where no speech may be subject to violent punishment by a monopoly of power, while Adrian feels that some speech (such as slander) should be punished with jail time. Here I present some (not really new) ideas about how to make the society of completely free speech a viable option. On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 11:52 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If this was the least bit complex, causing people to not bother to shun > those with this label, what would keep these labels from being completely > ineffective in practice, thus leaving people effectively free to libel and > slander without consequence? > ### Reputation is generally very important for most people and it strongly influences how they are able to interact with others. Appending an easily accessible record of prior judgments by trusted authorities to a person's identifying profile would be quite influential on his ability to associate with others, just like a criminal record does today. It would be great to have an augmented reality app to create labels floating above all the people you see, just like in Warcraft. You could customize the labels to show what matters to you, such as reliable measures of honesty, cooperativeness, specific fields of expertise, political and religious beliefs, sexual orientation, whatever you think you need to know about a person before you talk to him. After a while people would be careful not to earn a bunch of red flags for being vicious and careless slanderers, or for other non-criminal but still distasteful traits. > > Also, who would get to say that someone had these labels? What would > stop, say, Trump or Fox from simply declaring - with no court involved - > that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris were slanderers, with the same impact as > or more than a court-appointed label? > ### Here we get to what matters: It is usually a very bad idea to let a single entity take over control of an aspect of social organisation. It is bad to have Vijaya Gadde decide that nobody in the country may hear about the infamous laptop. It would be bad to have a central labeling authority in charge of giving people a bad name, like "slanderer" or "racist". There *must* be freely competing authorities that collate information and make judgments. To go back to the labeling app above: It must be freely customizable, to let every user decide which sources of judgments about other people to trust. Sure, some people would make stupid decisions and they would end up shunning perfectly nice persons that got in trouble for e.g. ideological reasons. However, for issues that matter, like choosing business or personal associations, reasonable people would gravitate towards impersonal, efficient, reasonable and unbiased judgements of character, since to do otherwise would expose them to bad actors while depriving them of association with good people. ----------------------------- > In the example above, I might be called a slanderer - and you might wind > up dead. > ### I don't follow your logic here. Please explain a *plausible* chain of events and mechanism of things happening. ------------------------------ > Most people would rather have a system where I would pay fines and/or go > to jail for making such claims - a much more effective deterrent - and you > would still be alive, as I would be stopped from broadcasting such claims > before I could whip up some vigilantes. > ### You are comparing two systems: 1) Where saying the wrong thing, be it slander or something else that's disapproved by authorities, puts you in the crosshairs of a state security apparatus that can fine you, jail you, put you in a concentration camp or make you "disappear" (in ascending degree of single-authority control over speech) 2) Where saying the wrong thing, be it slander or insulting the prophet, might result in reputational damage to you, which in turn could lead to various repercussions, up to being killed by random crazies Ok, crazies exist. In reality however the danger to life and liberty comes not from crazies but from relentless, ambitious, power-hungry, cooperating psychopaths who organize themselves into the speech-suppressing moloch. For this reason I say that all speech is sacred. Speech is the thought of the social brain. What individual neural impulses are to your brain, conversations are to the social superorganism. Our brains do not have a separate top-down central authority lording it over the toiling billions of neurons. The brain is a neural democracy, where all voices are heard and weighed before consensus or conscious thought appears - and all the time there are new votes and a new conscious consensus emerges, literally every few hundred milliseconds of our conscious life. When your brain stops listening to all its neurons, consciousness degrades and you become mentally rigid, or you have a seizure (when a small group of neurons gains control of the whole system). Then dementia or delirium develops and you die. By a close analogy, society cannot let a small group of people, be it a Twitter "moderation team", or the Reichspropagandaleitung (look it up), take control of its thoughts. Once that happens, we are on a slide towards authoritarianism, totalitarianism, madness and megadeath. All speech is sacred! Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 08:06:44 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 00:06:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 9, 2022 at 11:22 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Appending an easily accessible record of prior judgments by trusted > authorities to a person's identifying profile > ...appears to be generally not possible, at least not in a context where most people will see it. Sex offender lists are a current attempt to do just this. They are generally publicly accessible - and yet, most people remain unaware of them. Only those specifically interested will look them up. Most people, even close associates and business partners, will never think to check to see if someone is on such a list, unless and until informed that a certain person is - and even then, most people will accept being told that someone is as they lack knowledge that they can independently verify this, let alone knowledge of how to do so. Thus, claims of whether someone is or is not on the sex offender list default to trusting other people who say that person is or is not, rather than the authorities who should theoretically be the sole source of this information. Appending an easily accessible record of prior judgments by trusted authorities to a person's identifying profile seems likely to suffer the same fate. > It would be great to have an augmented reality app to create labels > floating above all the people you see, just like in Warcraft. > Similar efforts - with online labels, no augmented reality involved - have resulted in organized efforts to strike down the platforms enabling it. See the EU's "right to be forgotten" and American "right to privacy" laws, enacted by popular demand. Granted, these came about in part because of the persistence of false information in too many cases, but generally the public seems unwilling to accept anyone having this ability over them, and quite willing to pay the price of not having this ability over others. It is usually a very bad idea to let a single entity take over control of > an aspect of social organisation. It is bad to have Vijaya Gadde decide > that nobody in the country may hear about the infamous laptop. It would be > bad to have a central labeling authority in charge of giving people a bad > name, like "slanderer" or "racist". There *must* be freely competing > authorities that collate information and make judgments. > The free market is impeded from ensuring fair competition in this case. One authority is encouraged to post information leading to the shutdown of its competitors, winding up with a single entity taking control. By default this will be the government, which already tries to maintain a monopoly on violence precisely so it can be the single entity for things like this. As we already have a government, and likely will in any path leading from where we are to implementation of this idea, there would need to be a way to keep the government from simply assuming control regardless of the intentions - and even attempted use of force - of whoever implements this idea. > In the example above, I might be called a slanderer - and you might wind >> up dead. >> > > ### I don't follow your logic here. Please explain a *plausible* chain of > events and mechanism of things happening. > A simple extrapolation similar to events that have happened to others. 1) I call you a predatory child rapist, and post made up evidence. 2) Some armed vigilante believes it, hunts you down (I may have posted your address too), and kills you without considering whether I might be lying. 3) It comes out that I was lying. The vigilante regrets killing you. You're still dead. > You are comparing two systems: > > 1) Where saying the wrong thing, be it slander or something else that's > disapproved by authorities, puts you in the crosshairs of a state security > apparatus that can fine you, jail you, put you in a concentration camp or > make you "disappear" (in ascending degree of single-authority control over > speech) > 2) Where saying the wrong thing, be it slander or insulting the prophet, > might result in reputational damage to you, which in turn could lead to > various repercussions, up to being killed by random crazies > > Ok, crazies exist. In reality however the danger to life and liberty comes > not from crazies but from relentless, ambitious, power-hungry, cooperating > psychopaths who organize themselves into the speech-suppressing moloch. > Said psychopaths are making more use of crazies these days, in particular the ones who gain temporary control of pieces of the state security apparatus and hunger for more. > The brain is a neural democracy > I am reminded of the Mars hive mind from A Miracle Of Science. You might want to skim that Webcomic - the hive mind appears in the middle and near the end, as I recall - for inspiration. You have the beginnings of a good idea here; I'm just poking holes in the details, in particular as it applies to our current real world environment. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 10 15:41:42 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 07:41:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000401d90cad$e7305440$b590fcc0$@rainier66.com> On Fri, Dec 9, 2022 at 11:22 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat > wrote: >?Appending an easily accessible record of prior judgments by trusted authorities? Hmmmm? ja I see the intent there. I am tripping over the ?trusted authorities? term. We must recognize the culture war, such as American society is now actively engaged, results in ?trusted authorities? have an agenda of their own, which causes the quoted phrase to be self-contradictory. Example: authorities trusted by some are seeking to identify parents who object to common schoolboard policy as domestic terrorists. I see this as an indication that trusted (by some) authorities were in such desperate need of domestic terrorists that it was forced to manufacture them. Rafal, I agree there should be some kind of system of accountability, where every person?s past will follow them in some way. I just don?t know what that is. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 15:53:47 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 09:53:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It seems to me that it all comes down to who should and who should not censor. Private companies can do it without any constitutional violations. Are we OK with that? If you are not, you are not a libertarian. So, aside from media companies, where should totally free speech be allowed? Including freedom to libel and slander. There are, of course, public obscenity laws, where obscenity is defined by the courts. ("I know it when I see it.") In effect, there are no public outlets for totally free speech. bill w On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 1:22 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In a discussion about the limits of free speech, I advocate an absolute > freedom of speech, where no speech may be subject to violent punishment by > a monopoly of power, while Adrian feels that some speech (such as slander) > should be punished with jail time. Here I present some (not really new) > ideas about how to make the society of completely free speech a viable > option. > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 11:52 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> If this was the least bit complex, causing people to not bother to shun >> those with this label, what would keep these labels from being completely >> ineffective in practice, thus leaving people effectively free to libel and >> slander without consequence? >> > > ### Reputation is generally very important for most people and it strongly > influences how they are able to interact with others. Appending an easily > accessible record of prior judgments by trusted authorities to a person's > identifying profile would be quite influential on his ability to associate > with others, just like a criminal record does today. > > It would be great to have an augmented reality app to create labels > floating above all the people you see, just like in Warcraft. You could > customize the labels to show what matters to you, such as reliable measures > of honesty, cooperativeness, specific fields of expertise, political and > religious beliefs, sexual orientation, whatever you think you need to know > about a person before you talk to him. After a while people would be > careful not to earn a bunch of red flags for being vicious and careless > slanderers, or for other non-criminal but still distasteful traits. > >> >> Also, who would get to say that someone had these labels? What would >> stop, say, Trump or Fox from simply declaring - with no court involved - >> that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris were slanderers, with the same impact as >> or more than a court-appointed label? >> > > ### Here we get to what matters: It is usually a very bad idea to let a > single entity take over control of an aspect of social organisation. It is > bad to have Vijaya Gadde decide that nobody in the country may hear about > the infamous laptop. It would be bad to have a central labeling authority > in charge of giving people a bad name, like "slanderer" or "racist". There > *must* be freely competing authorities that collate information and make > judgments. To go back to the labeling app above: It must be freely > customizable, to let every user decide which sources of judgments about > other people to trust. Sure, some people would make stupid decisions and > they would end up shunning perfectly nice persons that got in trouble for > e.g. ideological reasons. However, for issues that matter, like choosing > business or personal associations, reasonable people would gravitate > towards impersonal, efficient, reasonable and unbiased judgements of > character, since to do otherwise would expose them to bad actors while > depriving them of association with good people. > > ----------------------------- > >> In the example above, I might be called a slanderer - and you might wind >> up dead. >> > > ### I don't follow your logic here. Please explain a *plausible* chain of > events and mechanism of things happening. > > ------------------------------ > > >> Most people would rather have a system where I would pay fines and/or go >> to jail for making such claims - a much more effective deterrent - and you >> would still be alive, as I would be stopped from broadcasting such claims >> before I could whip up some vigilantes. >> > > ### You are comparing two systems: > > 1) Where saying the wrong thing, be it slander or something else that's > disapproved by authorities, puts you in the crosshairs of a state security > apparatus that can fine you, jail you, put you in a concentration camp or > make you "disappear" (in ascending degree of single-authority control over > speech) > 2) Where saying the wrong thing, be it slander or insulting the prophet, > might result in reputational damage to you, which in turn could lead to > various repercussions, up to being killed by random crazies > > Ok, crazies exist. In reality however the danger to life and liberty comes > not from crazies but from relentless, ambitious, power-hungry, cooperating > psychopaths who organize themselves into the speech-suppressing moloch. > > For this reason I say that all speech is sacred. Speech is the thought of > the social brain. What individual neural impulses are to your brain, > conversations are to the social superorganism. > > Our brains do not have a separate top-down central authority lording it > over the toiling billions of neurons. The brain is a neural democracy, > where all voices are heard and weighed before consensus or conscious > thought appears - and all the time there are new votes and a new conscious > consensus emerges, literally every few hundred milliseconds of our > conscious life. When your brain stops listening to all its neurons, > consciousness degrades and you become mentally rigid, or you have a seizure > (when a small group of neurons gains control of the whole system). Then > dementia or delirium develops and you die. > > By a close analogy, society cannot let a small group of people, be it a > Twitter "moderation team", or the Reichspropagandaleitung (look it up), > take control of its thoughts. Once that happens, we are on a slide towards > authoritarianism, totalitarianism, madness and megadeath. > > All speech is sacred! > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 10 19:08:08 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 11:08:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills >?It seems to me that it all comes down to who should and who should not censor. Private companies can do it without any constitutional violations. Are we OK with that? If you are not, you are not a libertarian? bill w Agreed. But what if? government bribes or threatens private companies into promoting only its own party? Is that still OK? If the government itself colludes with media to silence the opposition party, does that not lead to totalitarianism? Looks to me like it does. In that case, the government violated the first amendment by proxy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 19:18:40 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 13:18:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In playing 'what if?" you have to have some rules: withdrawing a license is a drastic thing and I think you would have a media rebellion if that were tried as a threat. Of course politicians are shameless and will try anything to get or keep power. But they can't do anything unconstitutional, and so they would have to bribe the media as a private person -sort of. And if successful it would still not be unconstitutional since it would be done by a private company. It's only gov. censorship I am afraid of. bill w On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 1:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of > real life is a solution to various ills > > > > >?It seems to me that it all comes down to who should and who should not > censor. Private companies can do it without any constitutional > violations. Are we OK with that? If you are not, you are not a libertarian > ? bill w > > > > > > Agreed. But what if? government bribes or threatens private companies > into promoting only its own party? Is that still OK? If the government > itself colludes with media to silence the opposition party, does that not > lead to totalitarianism? Looks to me like it does. In that case, the > government violated the first amendment by proxy. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 10 19:37:40 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 11:37:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >?Of course politicians are shameless and will try anything to get or keep power. But they can't do anything unconstitutional, and so they would have to bribe the media as a private person -sort of. And if successful it would still not be unconstitutional since it would be done by a private company? bill w Ja. This argument suggests that it is legal for the government to use taxpayer money to seize more power, which it will certainly do. The former CEO of Twitter testified before congress that Twitter does not shadowban. The current owner of Twitter revealed this week that Twitter shadowbans. If congress doesn?t do anything about that testimony, it has legalized lying to congress under oath. If it does something about it, the former CEO can always fall back on the following defense: I will offer the following sincere words regarding Jack Dorsey: he would soooo kick butt in any Rasputin-lookalike contest. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9984 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 20:05:23 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 14:05:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: He does not have the Rasputin eyes, which were said to be very penetrating - gimlet eyes, perhaps. bill w On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 1:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >?Of course politicians are shameless and will try anything to get or > keep power. But they can't do anything unconstitutional, and so they would > have to bribe the media as a private person -sort of. And if successful it > would still not be unconstitutional since it would be done by a private > company? bill w > > > > > > > > Ja. This argument suggests that it is legal for the government to use > taxpayer money to seize more power, which it will certainly do. > > > > The former CEO of Twitter testified before congress that Twitter does not > shadowban. The current owner of Twitter revealed this week that Twitter > shadowbans. If congress doesn?t do anything about that testimony, it has > legalized lying to congress under oath. If it does something about it, the > former CEO can always fall back on the following defense: > > > > > > I will offer the following sincere words regarding Jack Dorsey: he would > soooo kick butt in any Rasputin-lookalike contest. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9984 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 20:06:31 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 20:06:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 at 19:40, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Ja. This argument suggests that it is legal for the government to use taxpayer money to seize more power, which it will certainly do. > > The former CEO of Twitter testified before congress that Twitter does not shadowban. The current owner of Twitter revealed this week that Twitter shadowbans. If congress doesn?t do anything about that testimony, it has legalized lying to congress under oath. > > spike > _______________________________________________ See: Quotes: In the new material released late Friday, journalist Matt Taibbi confirmed that Twitter executives met weekly with FBI, Homeland Security and national intelligence officials to discuss ?disinformation? they felt should be removed from the site. Those discussions apparently included the Hunter Biden laptop story. Some of these files reflect specific subjects or measures long pushed by powerful politicians to get private companies to do indirectly what they themselves are barred from doing under the First Amendment. What these files suggest is an utter license to control political speech on social media platforms. Twitter executives often sound like overlords determining what the public should be allowed to read or say. This is hardly surprising, given the constant stroking by many politicians and pundits who say they are saving democracy by limiting free speech. The new documents show Twitter using blacklists and ?visibility filters? to interfere with user searches or to shadow-ban individuals and prevent their tweets from trending. The new material also indicates that ?visibility filtering? was directed at various Republican campaigns, throttling or reducing candidates? visibility before the 2020 election. -------------- To an outside observer, bearing in mind the huge popularity of social media, that is a prime example of 'interfering in an election'. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 10 20:27:40 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 12:27:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b901d90cd5$daa5b300$8ff11900$@rainier66.com> >...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... >...The new documents show Twitter using blacklists and ?visibility filters? to interfere with user searches or to shadow-ban individuals and prevent their tweets from trending. The new material also indicates that ?visibility filtering? was directed at various Republican campaigns, throttling or reducing candidates? visibility before the 2020 election. -------------- >...To an outside observer, bearing in mind the huge popularity of social media, that is a prime example of 'interfering in an election'. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, thanks for that, my British friend. Think about the consequences: now that unpleasant business about the 2020 election being {fill in your favorite description {you don't need one from me}} is with us forever. Now we will never really get over that, because we can't ever know for sure if the FBI's actions flipped that election. I often wonder what this all looks like from the outsider's POV. I also wonder what it does to the USA's resolve if China grabs Taiwan. Knowing the US is divided against itself, the Dear Leader might command his Dear Army to take action sooner rather than later. Damn. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 20:46:21 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 14:46:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Think of all the media outlets - web,newspapers and so on. How many of them provide balanced coverage of politics? I'd guess none. That means that all of them are interfering in an election. No? No. bill w On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 2:13 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 at 19:40, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Ja. This argument suggests that it is legal for the government to use > taxpayer money to seize more power, which it will certainly do. > > > > The former CEO of Twitter testified before congress that Twitter does > not shadowban. The current owner of Twitter revealed this week that > Twitter shadowbans. If congress doesn?t do anything about that testimony, > it has legalized lying to congress under oath. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > See: > < > https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/with-new-twitter-files-musk-forces-a-free-speech-reckoning-for-politicians-and-pundits/ar-AA1583xF > > > Quotes: > In the new material released late Friday, journalist Matt Taibbi > confirmed that Twitter executives met weekly with FBI, Homeland > Security and national intelligence officials to discuss > ?disinformation? they felt should be removed from the site. Those > discussions apparently included the Hunter Biden laptop story. > > Some of these files reflect specific subjects or measures long pushed > by powerful politicians to get private companies to do indirectly what > they themselves are barred from doing under the First Amendment. > > What these files suggest is an utter license to control political > speech on social media platforms. Twitter executives often sound like > overlords determining what the public should be allowed to read or > say. This is hardly surprising, given the constant stroking by many > politicians and pundits who say they are saving democracy by limiting > free speech. > > The new documents show Twitter using blacklists and ?visibility > filters? to interfere with user searches or to shadow-ban individuals > and prevent their tweets from trending. The new material also > indicates that ?visibility filtering? was directed at various > Republican campaigns, throttling or reducing candidates? visibility > before the 2020 election. > -------------- > > To an outside observer, bearing in mind the huge popularity of social > media, that is a prime example of 'interfering in an election'. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 10 21:10:00 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 13:10:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c301d90cdb$c44de270$4ce9a750$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills >?Think of all the media outlets - web,newspapers and so on. How many of them provide balanced coverage of politics? I'd guess none. That means that all of them are interfering in an election. No? No. bill w Billw, it isn?t the newspapers or social media I object to. They are businesses, they can do what they want. What we see is that government met with them to influence what they did, perhaps by bribery, perhaps by threat, but either way, most improper. We want a free press, not a propaganda wing of whoever is currently in power. A free press is the watchdog over government, not the lapdog under government. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 21:25:13 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 15:25:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: <00c301d90cdb$c44de270$4ce9a750$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> <00c301d90cdb$c44de270$4ce9a750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: totally agree spike bill w On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 3:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of > real life is a solution to various ills > > > > >?Think of all the media outlets - web,newspapers and so on. How many of > them provide balanced coverage of politics? I'd guess none. That means > that all of them are interfering in an election. No? No. bill w > > > > > > > > > > Billw, it isn?t the newspapers or social media I object to. They are > businesses, they can do what they want. What we see is that government met > with them to influence what they did, perhaps by bribery, perhaps by > threat, but either way, most improper. We want a free press, not a > propaganda wing of whoever is currently in power. > > > > A free press is the watchdog over government, not the lapdog under > government. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 10 22:11:01 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 14:11:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> <00c301d90cdb$c44de270$4ce9a750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002601d90ce4$4a936230$dfba2690$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 3:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?A free press is the watchdog over government, not the lapdog under government. spike >?totally agree spike bill w Thx Billw. We are getting closer and closer to the real point of all this: govt protection for platforms but not publishers. The rules are different for those two. The current owner of Twitter appears to be scrambling to prevent having his company?s butt sued off (or worse) by confessing every bad deed and begging forgiveness. Hey that?s what I would be doing too if I had bought that albatross. We would be scrambling to show that it really is only a platform, open to all, and acts in good faith, so section 230c2 protections apply. The government has infinite resources to go after whoever they want for whatever reason. Even the richest guy on the planet can?t fight back against a printing press which can (and does) manufacture as much money as it wants. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sat Dec 10 22:14:30 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 22:14:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Useful overview of AI progress on Ourworldindata Message-ID: The brief history of artificial intelligence: The world has changed fast ? what might be next? - Our World in Data [https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2022/12/featured-image-ai-training-computation-768x440.png] The brief history of artificial intelligence: The world has changed fast ? what might be next? Since the early days of this history, some computer scientists have strived to make machines as intelligent as humans. The next timeline shows some of the notable artificial intelligence (AI) systems and describes what they were capable of. ourworldindata.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 10 22:56:55 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 14:56:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Useful overview of AI progress on Ourworldindata In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004501d90cea$b3e9e0f0$1bbda2d0$@rainier66.com> .> On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Useful overview of AI progress on Ourworldindata The brief history of artificial intelligence: The world has changed fast - what might be next? - Our World in Data The brief history of artificial intelligence: The world has changed fast - what might be next? Since the early days of this history, some computer scientists have strived to make machines as intelligent as humans. The next timeline shows some of the notable artificial intelligence (AI) systems and describes what they were capable of. ourworldindata.org Thanks for the article Max. Feynman and others who were involved in the atomic bomb wrote memoirs about how they were caught up in the technical and scientific challenge of fission. Then after the Trinity site test, they pondered the ethical challenges of the monster they helped unleash on the world. I have been pondering for decades the use of AI-driven simulated companions for elderly nursing home patients. After fooling around with OpenAI, I came away convinced this technology is good enough to work for that purpose. Then suddenly. I began to wonder about the ethics of that. I was able to sidestep the question before, because I am familiar with nursing homes: most of the patients have no one to talk to at all. The staff is too busy and the other patients have no patience. So. a lonely fade away is all they get. OK then, OpenAI-driven speech synthesizing avatars are good enough now to carry a conversation indefinitely. But for patients not all there, the avatar can fool the interlocutor into believing she is with an actual human. I can lose myself in another technical challenge: making a pair of robot arms which are warmed and built to simulate the human touch, to hold the patient's hand as she goes gently into that good night. But in so doing, I am making the ethical dilemma worse for myself: I am participating in fooling the patient into believing she is not really dying lonely and forgotten. Do offer any available insights por favor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 737 bytes Desc: not available URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 00:06:27 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 19:06:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Useful overview of AI progress on Ourworldindata In-Reply-To: <004501d90cea$b3e9e0f0$1bbda2d0$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d90cea$b3e9e0f0$1bbda2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:58 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > OK then, OpenAI-driven speech synthesizing avatars are good enough now to > carry a conversation indefinitely. But for patients not all there, the > avatar can fool the interlocutor into believing she is with an actual > human. I can lose myself in another technical challenge: making a pair of > robot arms which are warmed and built to simulate the human touch, to hold > the patient?s hand as she goes gently into that good night. But in so > doing, I am making the ethical dilemma worse for myself: I am participating > in fooling the patient into believing she is not really dying lonely and > forgotten. > > Do offer any available insights por favor. > You should abandon the idea that you need fool anyone. Grandma's bot will be the UI that generation understands. It could be a rotary phone that always answers when she wants to call a friend. It could be a retired-model sexbot repurposed to a wheelchair across from grandma - uncanny valley is easily overlooked with grandma's visual acuity. Basically this idea, https://welcome.storyworth.com/ but with an actively engaging conversationalist bot. Last time you brought this up I imagined this device as autonomous data gathering but also telepresence ... so family members needn't suffer a commute to visit. Honestly, a hybrid bot solves some of the "what am I actually talking to?" question. I was also thinking about the software side of how an operator might review conversations and tag details for followup and deeper inquiry. There are challenges for privacy on many levels. This is a completely separate conversation. I imagine the hybrid auto+remote presence will become a ubiquitous feature of IoT - whether it's a baby-monitor, internet- connected barbi, or nannybot. Kids have no understanding of a world without surveillance. Us old-heads need to realize we're also under observation and supervision too. Question is if we're getting any value in the transaction or only providing the value to someone else. Sorry spike, i started with the idea that you aren't harming the elderly with your chatbot and I ended up in the dystopian near future (near enough as to be called present?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 05:49:23 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 21:49:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Useful overview of AI progress on Ourworldindata In-Reply-To: References: <004501d90cea$b3e9e0f0$1bbda2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002a01d90d24$53283cf0$f978b6d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Do offer any available insights por favor. >?You should abandon the idea that you need fool anyone. Grandma's bot will be the UI that generation understands. ? >?Sorry spike, i started with the idea that you aren't harming the elderly with your chatbot and I ended up in the dystopian near future (near enough as to be called present?) Mike I read your post word for word twice but didn?t see a single thing in there I would consider the least bit dystopian. Do elaborate if you intended something of that sort, for I missed it twice. It is good stuff: helpful and optimistic. I agree about the younger generation growing up with zero expectation of privacy, very unlike me: I am very concerned about ubiquitous surveillance. Considering I am both an openness advocate and a straight arrow in everything, this is an odd position perhaps, but I do feel we are all entitled to some degree of privacy. My son?s generation never really had that and do not demand it. Oy. Regarding your comments on grandma not being too bothered by the ?what am I talking to? question, your notion about using the bot as a stand-in for a phone is a marvelous idea. That has my wheels turning. There aughta be some way of making that happen. In any case: OK, sure there will be some elderly not-all-theres who will be fooled but you are right: I might be overly obsessing on that. This is one of those things I have been thinking about since my teens, working in a facility for the? not just elderly but specifically senile. They were kept in a separate area from the other patients. I have thought for over 40 years there should be some way to interact with these patients and make their final years more comfortable. OpenAI is a great leap forward I perceive. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 08:30:14 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 09:30:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Global determinism in a sudoku-like universe. Q/A with Emily Adlam Message-ID: Global determinism in a sudoku-like universe. Q/A with Emily Adlam. The universe doesn?t compute itself locally in space and time, place by place and instant by instant, but all at once globally and self-consistently. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/global-determinism-in-a-sudoku-like From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 11:19:10 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 11:19:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Social Companion Robots Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 at 05:52, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Mike I read your post word for word twice but didn?t see a single thing in there I would consider the least bit dystopian. Do elaborate if you intended something of that sort, for I missed it twice. It is good stuff: helpful and optimistic. > > Regarding your comments on grandma not being too bothered by the ?what am I talking to? question, your notion about using the bot as a stand-in for a phone is a marvelous idea. That has my wheels turning. There aughta be some way of making that happen. > > In any case: OK, sure there will be some elderly not-all-theres who will be fooled but you are right: I might be overly obsessing on that. This is one of those things I have been thinking about since my teens, working in a facility for the? not just elderly but specifically senile. They were kept in a separate area from the other patients. I have thought for over 40 years there should be some way to interact with these patients and make their final years more comfortable. > > OpenAI is a great leap forward I perceive. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Search for social companion robots. There are many already available and much development work is ongoing. Many include communication or telepresence features. The current models are not yet perfect. Understanding human queries can be difficult. Social robots need to be easy to operate. Too many tech problems still may occur. But the future progress is optimistic. BillK Quote: A social robot may be remotely controlled, perhaps serving as a telepresence representative at a business meeting or in the home or as a companion in a healthcare facility. Other social robots are autonomous systems with local AI that allows them to interact independently in response to cues from people and things in their environment. -------------- From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 12:35:21 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 12:35:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity Message-ID: AI is here, and it?s harming future generations (and the present ones) An English teacher?s thoughts on ?The College Essay is Dead? and ChatGPT. Natalie Kay Dec 9, 2022 Quotes: This time last year, I was in the middle of my one-year stint as a high school English teacher. There were many reasons I left the job (the teacher shortage exists for a reason, it turns out), but undoubtedly one of the most significant ongoing issues I had was plagiarism. ------- I tried it myself using ChatGPT, the AI program he discusses in the article. I used a prompt that I had given to my own students when I asked them to write essays on Romeo and Juliet. The quality and level of detail was similar to that of my students. Even if I had been suspicious of plagiarism, I never would have found a way to prove that a student didn?t write the essay. It passed in every way I know to look for. --------- I?m grieving a world where my students, and future generations broadly, are not going to be able to experience the satisfaction and self-growth that school should foster. The new capabilities of technology, the pressure from academic institutions, and the drastically changing job market will create environments with few incentives for critical thinking. Why learn to write anything when AI will do it for us? Why spend years cultivating a particular technique as an artist when AI can reproduce the same style in seconds? Why learn math when AI can do the calculations? Why think critically when another Intelligence has the answers needed to pass the test or do the assignment? Why learn to do any of this if the AI will take over our jobs anyway? -------------------------- AI progress is going to profoundly affect our civilisation. Even before we reach the AGI Singularity BillK. From snapbag at proton.me Sun Dec 11 13:41:38 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 13:41:38 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <_2-gltkSaSQ2BDZ9ci6eZEBguLJ-LM-pzrwoDeuIaN9JNL7yZ7EsR-r4Av1mVgCoiuH1oEJatJpiy21M1kXx2sFNv_nYpS1aDBbFcWKgEqE=@proton.me> On Sunday, December 11th, 2022 at 7:35 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > AI is here, and it?s harming future generations (and the present ones) > An English teacher?s thoughts on ?The College Essay is Dead? and ChatGPT. > Natalie Kay Dec 9, 2022 As she says, it's not just AI that's a problem. Finding answers with a quick search and plagiarizing papers available online are making it easy to cheat on homework. The problem isn't technology; the problem is that education isn't adjusting to accommodate technology. The calculator didn't remove the need to learn arithmetic and it didn't make it impossible to teach arithmetic. I think we need to get smart phones out of the classroom, even though parents want to be able to hear from their children in the event of a mass shooting--an exceedingly rare occurrence. But cheating isn't even the main reason they need to go: they're a major distraction. Educators should know by now that cheating on homework is rampant. They should know that AI can generate decent essays. They need new ways to evaluate a student's skills and understanding. Perhaps a verbal question and answer session, possibly administered by a bot, and recorded for evaluation by the educator (or their staff, whether human or AI) could replace the essay. I'm sure we can think of a myriad of ways to adjust education to technology. -Dave From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 15:33:51 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 07:33:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Social Companion Robots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002e01d90d75$f90a5940$eb1f0bc0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... Subject: [ExI] Social Companion Robots On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 at 05:52, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > .... > > OpenAI is a great leap forward I perceive. > > spike > _______________________________________________ ... >...But the future progress is optimistic. BillK ------------- _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK. A quote from that link: >...A social robot is an artificial intelligence (AI) system that is designed to interact with humans and other robots. In the workplace, social robots have the potential to take over entire job functions, such as greeting and basic customer service... After yesterday's dump from the Twitter files (Part 4) it is clear enough that Musk plans to have robots take over the job function of moderating Twitter. That one change alone could get his cost down far enough to meet revenue. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 15:50:22 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 07:50:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity AI is here, and it?s harming future generations (and the present ones) An English teacher?s thoughts on ?The College Essay is Dead? and ChatGPT. Natalie Kay Dec 9, 2022 Quotes: ... --------- >>...I?m grieving a world where my students, and future generations broadly, are not going to be able to experience the satisfaction and self-growth that school should foster... Why learn to do any of this if the AI will take over our jobs anyway? (English teacher) -------------------------- >...AI progress is going to profoundly affect our civilisation. Even before we reach the AGI Singularity. BillK. _______________________________________________ Ja, not doubt this is true BillK. I was at a national level math tournament at Berkeley last month. While the students were competing, the grownups were invited to attend a lecture by a guy who is on the admissions committee at one of the three American universities which use American Math Competition and American Invitational Math Exam scores as primary admissions criteria. He spoke of what they decided they could no longer use: essays. The admissions committee would get stacks of these marvelous admissions essays, some bad, some good, some great... and no possible way to determine who or what wrote it. So... they had to disregard those. He spoke of that change in past tense. OK. Hmmm... That would certainly fit your comment about the profound impact of AI before we reach AGI singularity. We are already being replaced. The defeat of the vast Twitter moderation army is just a most visible case. We are left with a profound question: Why do the British spell civilization with an s? No wait, that isn't the profound question. The question: what is the meaning of life, if our intellectual function can be replaced by software, which is far cheaper than we are? spike From snapbag at proton.me Sun Dec 11 16:02:15 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 16:02:15 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> On Sunday, December 11th, 2022 at 10:50 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > No wait, that isn't the profound question. The question: what is the meaning of life, if our intellectual function can be replaced by software, which is far cheaper than we are? Maybe we'll be free to learn, think, do, travel, express ourselves, etc., without having to devote most of our lives to meeting our basic needs. -Dave From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 16:04:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 08:04:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <_2-gltkSaSQ2BDZ9ci6eZEBguLJ-LM-pzrwoDeuIaN9JNL7yZ7EsR-r4Av1mVgCoiuH1oEJatJpiy21M1kXx2sFNv_nYpS1aDBbFcWKgEqE=@proton.me> References: <_2-gltkSaSQ2BDZ9ci6eZEBguLJ-LM-pzrwoDeuIaN9JNL7yZ7EsR-r4Av1mVgCoiuH1oEJatJpiy21M1kXx2sFNv_nYpS1aDBbFcWKgEqE=@proton.me> Message-ID: <003a01d90d7a$47b36290$d71a27b0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI harming humanity On Sunday, December 11th, 2022 at 7:35 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: ... >...I think we need to get smart phones out of the classroom, even though parents want to be able to hear from their children in the event of a mass shooting--an exceedingly rare occurrence... ... -Dave _______________________________________________ On the contrary Dave. In about the past 10 years, cell phones in the classroom have become universal. This has caused teachers to become so well-behaved. Knowing that a single even short rant on anything political, regardless of what, could land them on a FaceBook page, which would quickly be promoted to Twitter, which then goes to a lede story on FoxNews or CNN, followed the next day by a notice of suspension with pay pending an internal review (with a handwritten sticky note suggesting getting the old resume brushed up.) Six years ago, the local high school principal went on a rant that resulted in this viral chain of events: it was recorded, FaceBooked, Twittered, FoxNewsed (all in the space of two days) and adios amigo. Two years later one of the very popular teachers did something similar with similar results. Interesting twist: he apologized to the community and the school board, mentioned that the recording itself by the student was illegal (is it, legal hipsters?) but it was adios amigo anyway. Our local teachers have universally taken up actual, literal teaching since then. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 16:12:43 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 16:12:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 at 16:04, Dave S via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sunday, December 11th, 2022 at 10:50 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > No wait, that isn't the profound question. The question: what is the meaning of life, if our intellectual function can be replaced by software, which is far cheaper than we are? > > Maybe we'll be free to learn, think, do, travel, express ourselves, etc., without having to devote most of our lives to meeting our basic needs. > -Dave > _______________________________________________ Maybe.... But more likely we'll google funny cat videos, send them to friends, and chat about them. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 16:15:01 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 08:15:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> Message-ID: <004701d90d7b$b95e3e00$2c1aba00$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI harming humanity On Sunday, December 11th, 2022 at 10:50 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>... No wait, that isn't the profound question. The question: what is the meaning of life, if our intellectual function can be replaced by software, which is far cheaper than we are? >...Maybe we'll be free to learn, think, do, travel, express ourselves, etc., without having to devote most of our lives to meeting our basic needs. -Dave _______________________________________________ Indeed? Who is going to pay us to do all that? Dave it is already that way for the independently wealthy, but most of us here are not in that class. The defeated Twitter army will perhaps demonstrate techno-displaced professionals: will FaceBook pick them up? Or...what? spike From gadersd at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 16:31:50 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 11:31:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> Message-ID: I foresee decadence and depravity, but who knows? Maybe humanity will surprise me, but I doubt it. > On Dec 11, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Dave S via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sunday, December 11th, 2022 at 10:50 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >> No wait, that isn't the profound question. The question: what is the meaning of life, if our intellectual function can be replaced by software, which is far cheaper than we are? > > Maybe we'll be free to learn, think, do, travel, express ourselves, etc., without having to devote most of our lives to meeting our basic needs. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 16:55:20 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 08:55:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> Message-ID: <001a01d90d81$5b1cd9e0$11568da0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... > >>... Maybe we'll be free to learn, think, do, travel, express ourselves, etc., without having to devote most of our lives to meeting our basic needs. > -Dave > _______________________________________________ >...Maybe.... But more likely we'll google funny cat videos, send them to friends, and chat about them...BillK _______________________________________________ Well sure, BillK, because that doesn't cost anything. Consider Dave's list: learn, think, do, travel, express ourselves. Three of those are free or nearly so. But that "do" business is ambiguous: depends on what (or who) we are doing. That "travel" is going to cost a looootta lotta money. For most of us, it will be three of Dave's five, with some of the fourth, but the discussion brings up a concept we were introduced to in college psychology (Billw can comment if he wishes, being the local expert) Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I just looked it up and discovered how not hip I am. Since Abe Maslow and I were chumming around in high school, the hipsters added a new item up there, transcendence. OK then, why. was.. that. necessary? Answer: a lotta modern fortunate people started right out with self-actualization: They started there. Example: one of my actual college buddies has two daughters who were born and lived their lives in a nice area, well fed, nice home, safe, stable loving family, handed a great education (by the local school system) their home is gorgeous. OK then. what happens when they. like. grow up? That was in interesting case, because one of the two girls is very circumspect. She figured out that the whole self-actualization bit can wait until she makes damn sure she doesn't need to deal head on with that messy physiological and safety business way the hell down there at the bottom of Maslow's pyramid. Today she has a masters degree in hospital administration, is married and kicking butt wherever butt is to be found. The other. never really looked back that way (downward) but rather kept working on the whole self-actualization scene. She is still doing that. She has a side hustle going but not an actual. like. job. (If one only has a side hustle, does that make it a. central hustle?) She is single, in her 30s and lives in the home she grew up in, with her parents, and no reasonable plan for getting to transcendence that I can see. The reason I mention it: I know her parents well. We went to college together, and I know both their families. They damn well did work those lower levels on the pyramid, as did I, and our attitudes really are very different from our own children who never gained any familiarity with those levels down there. OK then. What happens when major corporations are being run by people who started out life working on self-actualization? Do they get to the point where the company is hemorrhaging money to the tune of millions a day, but the leaders fail to realize they are flying in steep power dive with an easily foreseeable near-term future? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14340 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 17:02:13 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 09:02:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> Message-ID: <002701d90d82$5168c2f0$f43a48d0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI harming humanity >...I foresee decadence and depravity, but who knows? Gadersd Who knows? Gadersd asked. Well me life form, I knows. I knows that the terms depraved and deprived sound alike, but they are describing two very different (and in some ways opposite) things. If we collectively screw up the AI transition, and masses don't have some value they create somehow, those masses will be deprived while the working few are depraved. The deprived will not like that. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 17:40:31 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 09:40:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] but at least it is funny: was RE: AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <002001d90d81$5bccf000$1366d000$@rainier66.com> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> <002001d90d81$5bccf000$1366d000$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301d90d87$aaeb3e70$00c1bb50$@rainier66.com> All of this drama is producing great comedy: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 26356 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sun Dec 11 17:41:40 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 09:41:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] All the Art We Need for the Future Message-ID: <4E3C1BD4-C63A-49E0-8145-3656D65B819A@taramayastales.com> In the essay on college essays, I noticed that Kay also brought up AI generated art putting artists out of business. But has she really considered just HOW MUCH DAMN ART we are going to need for the future? Let's just take one example. Now, this hasn't been invented yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time: video wallpaper cheap and durable enough to put everywhere in your house. Maybe it's because I've been decorating my house for Christmas this month, but I was thinking how fun it would be to have the house change every month to a new theme. New colors, new decor, new artwork.... But of course currently decorating one's house like a Hallmark Christmas house costs hundreds of dollars and hours and hours of work. That's why we do it once a year. Or in my case, once a decade. Imagine it were cheaper and easier, and all you had to do was the fun part--picking the patterns and stuff. Imagine having new, original murals for your walls to go along with the theme. Now, AI can help with this, sure. Color swatch generators can tell you pleasing combinations. AI can make beautiful murals that are similar to famous paintings, but unique. 3D printers can help you print your own accent pieces. But, my goodness, you won't know what's trendy without seeing what other people are doing. So there will need to be humans not only to paint pictures to feed the AI algorithm, but to design the accent pieces, and above all, to tell you what this is absolutely TOO CUTE and a MUST HAVE for the happy home's March 2030's walls, etc. Now, I expect most on this list might find this particular example ridiculous, but my point is that humans can always generate more work for themselves, especially in fun things like the arts, so why anyone is worried about being put out of work (permanently, at least) by robots, is a mystery to me. Now, AI used by evil humans to hurt other humans... oh, that's a different matter. I understand why that hurts. But art? Let us have more art. And by the way, to whomever it may concern, I still need decent housecleaning robots too, and nobody has yet come out with one! (Not that I can afford.) A rumba isn't picking up toys and wiping up cat vomit for me. We need more domestic robots! From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 18:31:48 2022 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 10:31:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Spike In-Reply-To: <005301d90d87$aaeb3e70$00c1bb50$@rainier66.com> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> <002001d90d81$5bccf000$1366d000$@rainier66.com> <005301d90d87$aaeb3e70$00c1bb50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I sent you a small private message and it was undeliverable? Pout, ilsa On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 9:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > All of this drama is producing great comedy: > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 18:48:39 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 13:48:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <002701d90d82$5168c2f0$f43a48d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> <002701d90d82$5168c2f0$f43a48d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <8E07368B-EB3E-43D4-8D1C-765217BDED54@gmail.com> I suspect the deprivation of meaning will lead to depravity. What better way to pass the time than to war when the basic necessities are covered? > On Dec 11, 2022, at 12:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > ...> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] AI harming humanity > > > > >> ...I foresee decadence and depravity, but who knows? Gadersd > > Who knows? Gadersd asked. Well me life form, I knows. I knows that the > terms depraved and deprived sound alike, but they are describing two very > different (and in some ways opposite) things. If we collectively screw up > the AI transition, and masses don't have some value they create somehow, > those masses will be deprived while the working few are depraved. The > deprived will not like that. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 20:25:26 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 12:25:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <8E07368B-EB3E-43D4-8D1C-765217BDED54@gmail.com> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> <002701d90d82$5168c2f0$f43a48d0$@rainier66.com> <8E07368B-EB3E-43D4-8D1C-765217BDED54@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a301d90d9e$b51caed0$1f560c70$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI harming humanity >...I suspect the deprivation of meaning will lead to depravity. What better way to pass the time than to war when the basic necessities are covered? Gadersd ... Gadersd, I am reminded of my tragically misspent college days. I don't know why I even bothered to go. I couldn't really afford it. No money for all the usual college debauchery, depravity and youthful dissipations and indiscretion, even if I had lusted for those things. Poverty forced upon me bauchery, pravity, sippations and discretion only, the whole squandered time, these all being free. Were it possible to purchase sexual gratification by the stroke, I would have been able to afford only about three or four of them at most, and all of those would have been the out-strokes only, these being much lower priced, but far less satisfying. It was so sad. Squandered all four years on endless rounds of study and such. Pathetic! Oy vey, I was such a poster child. I might as well have stayed home and remained stupid. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 20:35:42 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 14:35:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <8E07368B-EB3E-43D4-8D1C-765217BDED54@gmail.com> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> <002701d90d82$5168c2f0$f43a48d0$@rainier66.com> <8E07368B-EB3E-43D4-8D1C-765217BDED54@gmail.com> Message-ID: What better way to pass the time than to war when the basic necessities are covered? GaderSD Well, that's the way the French and English kings did it. Almost constantly at war over tiny territories. ; bill w On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:50 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I suspect the deprivation of meaning will lead to depravity. What better > way to pass the time than to war when the basic necessities are covered? > > > On Dec 11, 2022, at 12:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > ...> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] AI harming humanity > > > > > > > > > >> ...I foresee decadence and depravity, but who knows? Gadersd > > > > Who knows? Gadersd asked. Well me life form, I knows. I knows that the > > terms depraved and deprived sound alike, but they are describing two very > > different (and in some ways opposite) things. If we collectively screw > up > > the AI transition, and masses don't have some value they create somehow, > > those masses will be deprived while the working few are depraved. The > > deprived will not like that. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 21:26:25 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 13:26:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <00a301d90d9e$b51caed0$1f560c70$@rainier66.com> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> <002701d90d82$5168c2f0$f43a48d0$@rainier66.com> <8E07368B-EB3E-43D4-8D1C-765217BDED54@gmail.com> <00a301d90d9e$b51caed0$1f560c70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003501d90da7$3a3fcea0$aebf6be0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >... my tragically misspent college days. ... I would have been able to afford only about three or four of them at most, and all of those would have been the out-strokes only, these being much lower priced, but far less satisfying... I might as well have stayed home and remained stupid. spike Posting crap like that gives me nightmares. Consider the risk. What if... I accidentally discover something outrageously cool, such as a senility cure or an equation that allows me to generate Mersenne primes 1000 times faster. Then... I am up there getting a Nobel prize or (even cooler) the Fields medal. I would be required to put on that weird penguin suit thing and have the king of... (what is that guy the king of? Tannu Tuva or like... France or something?) wherever he is the king of, putting that medal on my neck so I must act all dignified and like... intelligent. But out in the audience, the angry displaced worthy scientists and mathematicians who never heard of me would be in the bleachers looking up my stuff on their cell phones and finding... crap like the quoted passage above. Well you know what they would do: bust out in derisive laughter like those two geezers in the balcony of the Muppet show. It would completely ruin the otherwise dignified proceedings. Gives a lad nightmares it does. I have taken appropriate safety precautions however: I make sure to not discover something absurdly cool, so I don't need to worry about accidentally winning the Nobel or the Fields. spike From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 23:18:28 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 18:18:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Useful overview of AI progress on Ourworldindata In-Reply-To: <002a01d90d24$53283cf0$f978b6d0$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d90cea$b3e9e0f0$1bbda2d0$@rainier66.com> <002a01d90d24$53283cf0$f978b6d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 12:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Mike I read your post word for word twice but didn?t see a single thing in > there I would consider the least bit dystopian. Do elaborate if you > intended something of that sort, for I missed it twice. It is good stuff: > helpful and optimistic. > Cool. Thanks for the feedback. I drew three points and called it a line: Caring for the elderly because they've lost the capacity to interpolate much less extrapolate; caring for children because they don't know any better; nanny-state treating adult citizens as either of those first two groups. I've been told recently that I have trust issues. Maybe. Yeah, I assume every good thing has the potential to hide the downside until after the buyer's remorse. > Regarding your comments on grandma not being too bothered by the ?what am > I talking to? question, your notion about using the bot as a stand-in for a > phone is a marvelous idea. That has my wheels turning. There aughta be > some way of making that happen. > Wheels turning... awesome. > They were kept in a separate area from the other patients. I have > thought for over 40 years there should be some way to interact with these > patients and make their final years more comfortable. > Never experienced that. I can imagine a ever-present occupant of the common-area who is always interested in conversation. It would be a feature of the place, but also would help the staff absorb some of the attention necessary to make time less boring... but again, my intended "customer" would be the family members who wouldn't know (or have time) to ask the right questions. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 11 23:43:25 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 15:43:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Useful overview of AI progress on Ourworldindata In-Reply-To: References: <004501d90cea$b3e9e0f0$1bbda2d0$@rainier66.com> <002a01d90d24$53283cf0$f978b6d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008201d90dba$5dbd1050$193730f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat >?I've been told recently that I have trust issues?. Heh. Mike considering what has been revealed in just the past week, trust issues are suddenly very easy to come by. You don?t even need to pay: we get them free. We have collectively taken to replacing the word ?problems? with ?issues? which is a slightly more general term one might suppose, with a more positive spin perhaps. But I don?t see developing a sane distrust as having trust problems. I see developing sane distrust as having trust solutions. Or at least a start towards a trust solution, on the order of the alcoholics anonymous starting right out admitting the damn problem, but in this case it isn?t with the person admitting the problem, it is with outfits like Twitter 1.0 doing the kinds of things revealed this week by Twitter 2.0. Of course we distrust T1.0, they earned our distrust and they richly deserve it. That isn?t a trust issue, it is a trust solution. >?Maybe. Yeah, I assume every good thing has the potential to hide the downside until after the buyer's remorse? Mike, every damn thing REALLY DOES have the potential to hide the downside until after buyer?s remorse. Even those things which really have zero apparent downside (such as? like? mathematics) filled with cool awe and wonder (again mathematics) have the potential to hide the downside. We just have never yet found it. That?s why we keep studying it Mike, perhaps to become first to discover the bad news about mathematics. In the meantime? distrust away, me lad. It?s not an issue, it?s a solution, to the problem of excessive trust. I have been cured of that one, with plenty of medications to combat excessive trust coming this past week. But I digress, for I want this thread to continue along the line of using the new tools such as OpenAI to create companion bots. We don?t really need to jump ahead of ourselves. We have talking avatars that are pretty good, we have OpenAI and we have speech recognition. Those three elements should combine to make an on-screen AI driven chatbot, even if it can be at times a self-contradicting ass-kisser, in a vaguely annoying way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 00:27:58 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:27:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Useful overview of AI progress on Ourworldindata In-Reply-To: <008201d90dba$5dbd1050$193730f0$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d90cea$b3e9e0f0$1bbda2d0$@rainier66.com> <002a01d90d24$53283cf0$f978b6d0$@rainier66.com> <008201d90dba$5dbd1050$193730f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 6:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Mike, perhaps to become first to discover the bad news about > mathematics. In the meantime? distrust away, me lad. It?s not an issue, > it?s a solution, to the problem of excessive trust. I have been cured of > that one, with plenty of medications to combat excessive trust coming this > past week. > I like math, but I must admit I skim the long algebraic proofs as so many sqiggles. Really good (imo) math is explained geometrically/visually. Yeah, I know that might make an engineer raise an eyebrow, but I'm going to trust that experience with your scouts has shown you a hands(eyes)-on approach can be more effective than reading the manual for those with a modality preference. :) To that end, I recently discovered a youtube channel called Mathologer that has an inspiring speaker and a visual explanation of some pretty cool math stuff https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC1_uAIS3r8Vu6JjXWvastJg > > > But I digress, for I want this thread to continue along the line of using > the new tools such as OpenAI to create companion bots. > Are we talking about highfalutin ideas followed by QED... or actually outlining a plan to make a deliverable product? I hate to tell you, this is isn't an easy road from great idea through hand-wavey step to buttload of money. I know that is your oft-stated motivation for doing things > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Mon Dec 12 00:31:33 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 00:31:33 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <003a01d90d7a$47b36290$d71a27b0$@rainier66.com> References: <_2-gltkSaSQ2BDZ9ci6eZEBguLJ-LM-pzrwoDeuIaN9JNL7yZ7EsR-r4Av1mVgCoiuH1oEJatJpiy21M1kXx2sFNv_nYpS1aDBbFcWKgEqE=@proton.me> <003a01d90d7a$47b36290$d71a27b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, December 11th, 2022 at 11:04 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ...I think we need to get smart phones out of the classroom, even though parents want to be able to hear from their children in the event of a mass shooting--an exceedingly rare occurrence... > > On the contrary Dave. In about the past 10 years, cell phones in the classroom have become universal. This has caused teachers to become so well-behaved. Knowing that a single even short rant on anything political, regardless of what, could land them on a FaceBook page, which would quickly be promoted to Twitter, which then goes to a lede story on FoxNews or CNN, followed the next day by a notice of suspension with pay pending an internal review (with a handwritten sticky note suggesting getting the old resume brushed up.) So you think that policing the expression of political beliefs should be done by students. I think that's far less of a problem than basically every student being distracted all the time in every class. School was bad enough in my day when passing paper notes was one of the major distractions. With phones, students can be chatting with anyone, any time. Or playing games, or ... -Dave From snapbag at proton.me Mon Dec 12 00:38:58 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 00:38:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: <004701d90d7b$b95e3e00$2c1aba00$@rainier66.com> References: <003801d90d78$47e2e8f0$d7a8bad0$@rainier66.com> <6ZAA5KhH92EsKX64Vad_p_dUiPCtREKEEtM_5X8UWv8ALRnzMSdP4nyU9dyz3B1ZbgjdHHJZdH13uzzPnqXYMrEnG51awwYVptmXpRxiHVw=@proton.me> <004701d90d7b$b95e3e00$2c1aba00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, December 11th, 2022 at 11:15 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ...Maybe we'll be free to learn, think, do, travel, express ourselves, > > etc., without having to devote most of our lives to meeting our basic needs. > > Indeed? Who is going to pay us to do all that? Dave it is already that way > for the independently wealthy, but most of us here are not in that class. Who's going to pay anyone to do anything when AIs can do it for almost nothing? Technology has been taking work from workers since the Industrial Age began. That's only going to get worse in the future. We've compensated mostly by reducing the number of hours worked per week, but how long can that continue? The population is increasing and the number of workers needed is decreasing. -Dave From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 12 00:55:44 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 16:55:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: References: <_2-gltkSaSQ2BDZ9ci6eZEBguLJ-LM-pzrwoDeuIaN9JNL7yZ7EsR-r4Av1mVgCoiuH1oEJatJpiy21M1kXx2sFNv_nYpS1aDBbFcWKgEqE=@proton.me> <003a01d90d7a$47b36290$d71a27b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a701d90dc4$77f9f000$67edd000$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat > >> On the contrary Dave. In about the past 10 years, cell phones in the classroom have become universal. This has caused teachers to become so well-behaved. ... >...So you think that policing the expression of political beliefs should be done by students... The policing isn't done by students. It is done by the internet. The students are merely providing much-needed transparency. I see the last few days as a glorious vindication of the notion of transparency, which we should have in public school classrooms. We the taxpayers are picking up the bill for that, so we deserve to see what is going on there. That isn't private space, it's public. People damn well are responsible for how they carry themselves in public spaces, and those entrusted with children carry a heavy burden of responsibility. This is a good thing. A video camera in every pocket rips away privacy which is bad, but it has its benefits as well. Strict accountability is demanded of scout leaders, as it damn well should be. I extend that accountability concept to all adults who interact with children, under all circumstances, including what goes on in the confession booth at a church. >...I think that's far less of a problem than basically every student being distracted all the time in every class. School was bad enough in my day when passing paper notes was one of the major distractions. With phones, students can be chatting with anyone, any time. Or playing games, or ... -Dave _______________________________________________ Paper notes? Luxury! We had to chisel our notes on granite tablets! They were so hard to pass. The distraction problem is very real, but not even a function of cell phones. The students have laptop computers on which they take notes. So ja, that is a known problem: they can zone out while appearing to be present. Teachers have a hard job these days. I will say however I have been brought in a guest lecturer for the calculus class, and I had no trouble at all engaging the students: I got them to interact with me enough to convince me that most were tuned in and turned on, with few dropping out. That might be a special-case class. spike From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 12 01:07:02 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 17:07:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Useful overview of AI progress on Ourworldindata In-Reply-To: References: <004501d90cea$b3e9e0f0$1bbda2d0$@rainier66.com> <002a01d90d24$53283cf0$f978b6d0$@rainier66.com> <008201d90dba$5dbd1050$193730f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b101d90dc6$0bdabab0$23903010$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat ? >?To that end, I recently discovered a youtube channel called Mathologer that has an inspiring speaker and a visual explanation of some pretty cool math stuff https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC1_uAIS3r8Vu6JjXWvastJg Thanks! There is so much excellent instructional video available free or on Brilliant.org that a prole can scarcely scratch the surface. Oh is this a cool time to be alive, or what? I curse my grievous agedness. I envy the young. They have so much, most of it free, content donated by guys like Mathologer. But I digress, for I want this thread to continue along the line of using the new tools such as OpenAI to create companion bots. >?Are we talking about highfalutin ideas followed by QED... or actually outlining a plan to make a deliverable product? I hate to tell you, this is isn't an easy road from great idea through hand-wavey step to buttload of money. I know that is your oft-stated motivation for doing things? Ja, it is such a curse that it is so difficult to merely make a buttload of money. What I have learned in all this is that anything I think of, there are already teams of hipsters that have been on it and doing cool stuff for years. In a remarkably many cases, it is happening within a twenty mile radius of where I am sitting (kewalll!) The task is then just to find who is doing it, what does it cost, what?s it do, how well does it do it. Then we buy their stock, make a buttload. Mike I am not pretending I have the programming chops to integrate talking avatars, speech recognition and OpenAI. I suck far too much to do all that. But I can recognize a workable product, and can arrange tests, being familiar with senile people who need it right now (no not me dammit, I mean those who really are currently literally senile.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 12 03:32:12 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 19:32:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] infliction point In-Reply-To: <00a701d90dc4$77f9f000$67edd000$@rainier66.com> References: <_2-gltkSaSQ2BDZ9ci6eZEBguLJ-LM-pzrwoDeuIaN9JNL7yZ7EsR-r4Av1mVgCoiuH1oEJatJpiy21M1kXx2sFNv_nYpS1aDBbFcWKgEqE=@proton.me> <003a01d90d7a$47b36290$d71a27b0$@rainier66.com> <00a701d90dc4$77f9f000$67edd000$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014c01d90dda$535548b0$f9ffda10$@rainier66.com> "Los Angeles has called me to serve at an infliction point in our history." Los Angeles Mayor Elect Bass I heard the audio, and it sure sounded like she said infliction point. In any case, I can't imagine why anyone would want that job. I suspect the problem of homelessness in Los Angeles is not solvable by the proposed means: encouraging more housing to be built on existing residential lots. Not enough people will build that to make any significant dent. If that fair city can somehow manage to raise the funds to buy distressed hotels and convert it to homeless shelters, the ones thus taken off the street will soon be replaced with new homeless. I predict the problem cannot be solved without forcibly removing the homeless to a camp somewhere east of the city. Note I am not claiming that it is a good solution, but only that it is more likely to succeed than rubber-stamping building permits for adjunct buildings or converting tool sheds to small homes for rent. spike From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 06:31:39 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 22:31:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] infliction point In-Reply-To: <014c01d90dda$535548b0$f9ffda10$@rainier66.com> References: <_2-gltkSaSQ2BDZ9ci6eZEBguLJ-LM-pzrwoDeuIaN9JNL7yZ7EsR-r4Av1mVgCoiuH1oEJatJpiy21M1kXx2sFNv_nYpS1aDBbFcWKgEqE=@proton.me> <003a01d90d7a$47b36290$d71a27b0$@rainier66.com> <00a701d90dc4$77f9f000$67edd000$@rainier66.com> <014c01d90dda$535548b0$f9ffda10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 7:33 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If that > fair city can somehow manage to raise the funds to buy distressed hotels > and > convert it to homeless shelters, the ones thus taken off the street will > soon be replaced with new homeless. I predict the problem cannot be solved > without forcibly removing the homeless to a camp somewhere east of the > city. > Would this camp, in turn, not expand indefinitely? Also, what of those who do not want housing - who prefer to live on the streets? Their data and logic may be broken, but they resist being placed in housing - or just act destructively to any housing they are placed in, perhaps with no clue how to live in a house. This is not currently considered a mental illness that one can be institutionalized for, and there would likely be a significant outcry - not to mention massive abuses, locking up people for being accused of being homeless without much (or any) proof, rather than only on demonstration to a court of willing preference for homelessness - if it were. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Dec 12 15:48:36 2022 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 15:48:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fw: [JSR] Jonathan's Space Report, No. 813 Message-ID: Ke.board is bad. .cDowell se.ds irreg.larl.; .owever, t.e data 'pillars' are .ard to read. Sig. .p at t.e botto. . Terr. . . . -----Forwarded Message----- From: Jonathan McDowell Sent: Dec 12, 2022 12:50 PM To: Subject: [JSR] Jonathan's Space Report, No. 813 Jonathan's Space Report No. 813 2022 Dec 12 Somerville, MA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: the constellations stats pages, including the Starlink Statistics page, have been moved. The Starlink Statistics page is now https://planet4589.org/space/con/star/stats.html Artemis I --------- Artemis I entered the lunar gravitational sphere of influence a 1910 UTC Nov 21. It made the powered flyby burn at 1244 UTC Nov 21, and passed through a 130.6 km altitude perilune over the farside crater Ibn Firnas at 1257 UTC. It is now heading outward from the Moon and reached a 92712 km apolune height on Nov 25. A burn at 2152 UTC Nov 25 put Orion in a distant retrograde orbit (DRO). Orion orbited between 69200 and 86300 km from the Moon, making a departure burn at 2153 UTC Dec 1 to set it on a close lunar flyby trajectory of 130 x 108450 km. The second close flyby, at 130 km altitude at 1644 UTC Dec 5, was accompanied by the second powered flyby burn of 293 m/s to put Orion on a lunar escape orbit of 135 x -12100 km x 162.2 deg. It left the lunar sphere of influence at 0731 UTC Dec 6, and after several course corrections reached Earth on Dec 11 in a 52 x 392747 km x 85.7 deg orbit, first heading southward over the Indian Ocean to Antarctica and then descending northward over the Pacific to entry around 120W 27S at 1720 UTC. The ESM-1 service module separated from CM-002 at 1700 UTC at 5150 km altitude. CM made a small 2.5m/s orbit raise burn to target the skip reentry at 1703 UTC. The ESM-1 debris reached the Pacific around 119.0W 6.5N sometime around 1726 UTC. The CM reached an altitude minimum of 60.9 km and then skipped to an apogee of 89.6 km over about 120W 8N at 1727 UTC, descending again to entry south of Baja California at 1729 UTC with parachute deployment at 1736-1737 UTC and splashdown near 118.0W 27.5N at 1740:30 UTC. Artemis I cubesats -------------------- The cubesats deployed from the SLS ICPS OSA have had mixed success. All of them flew past the Moon on Nov 21 at heights of 100 to 3000 km, but only OMOTENASHI and NEAScout have provided trajectory information. LunaHMap failed to fire its thrusters and was not able to enter lunar orbit, although it did make science measurements from its 1351 km flyby at 1552 UTC on Nov 21. It is hoped to fire the propulsion system in about a month from now in a second attempt to achieve lunar orbit. OMOTENASHI failed to establish stable comms with Earth and also made a lunar flyby instead of diverting to the planned lunar landing. Communications were not established with the NEAScout solar sail craft. CuSP communicated with the ground for the first few hours but fell silent on Nov 17. LunIR is communicating but with low signal strength. The Team Miles cubesat was first reported to be in ground contact on Dec 10. Biosentinel, EQUULEUS, ArgoMoon, and Lunar IceCube are thought to be working but few details are available. BioSentinel, Miles, CuSP, OMOTENASHI and NEA Scout are believed to have left the Earth-Moon system and entered 1.00 x 1.01 AU x 0 deg solar orbit on Dec 10 to 13. Lunar IceCube, ArgoMoon, EQUULEUS, LunaHMap and LunIR are believed to be in very deep Earth orbits with future lunar encounters. Please contact me if you can share trajectory data for any of these objects (or better yet, arrange for them to be added to JPL Horizons). International Space Station --------------------------- Expedition 68 continues. Dragon cargo mission CRS-26 was launched on Nov 26 using capsule C211 and docked with IDA-3/PMA-3 at 1239 UTC Nov 27. On Nov 30 the Canadarm-2 transferred the IROSA array payload from the CRS-26 trunk to the MBS POA on the truss. Four cubesats were deployed from the Kibo airlock on Dec 2 using the J-SSOD No. 23 deployer. On Dec 3 astronauts Cassada and Rubio made spacewalk US EVA-82, in suits 3013 and 3004, to move the 3A IROSA solar array from the IROSA package on the POA to the 3A solar array mast on the S4 truss. The hatch was open from 1213 to 1917 UTC, and the airlock was depressurized from 1208 to 1921 UTC. Chinese Space Station ---------------------- Shenzhou-15 was launched at 1508 UTC Nov 29 and docked with the Tianhe forward docking port at 2142 UTC the same day. Crew of Shenzhou-15 are Fei Junlong, Deng Qingming and Zhang Lu, forming expedition 4 (Tiangong Zairen 4, TGZR4) and beginning planned permanent occupation of the station. At the time of docking the TGZR3 crew were still aboard, temporarily increasing the station complement to 6 people. Shenzhou-14 undocked from Tianhe nadir at 0301 UTC Dec 4 with the TGZR3 crew of Chen Dong, Liu Uang and Cai Xuzhe. The spaceship jettisoned its orbital module at about 1120 UTC, made a deorbit burn at 1122 UTC, jettisoned the propulsion module at about 1145 UTC, and landed at 100 03 11E 41 39 13N in the Dongfeng Landing Area at 1209 UTC after a 182 day 9 hr 24min flight. The orbital module is known to be still in orbit, but has not yet been cataloged by the US Space Force. X-37B ----- X-37B mission OTV-6 was concluded on Nov 12. At about 0930 UTC the OTV ejected an annular service module (the first time this had been carried); this was cataloged as 54246 in a 234 x 239 km x 45.0 deg orbit. Then, the OTV performed a deorbit burn over the South Pacific and glided to a runway landing at the Kennedy Space Center's SLF (Shuttle Landing Facility), touching down at 1022 UTC. OTV-6 was launched on 2020 May 17. The service module is thought to have reentered later in November, but Space-Track has not issued a decay notice. Eutelsat 10B ----------- SpaceX launched Eutelsat's Eutelsat 10B C/Ku-band communications satellite to supersync geotransfer orbit on Nov 23. The satellite is a Thales Alenia Spacebus-NEO with an electric propulsion system. PSLV-C54 -------- India's NSIL launched a PSLV-XL from Sriharikota on Nov 26 with the Oceansat-3 research satellite. Oceansat-3 (also called EOS-06) carries an ocean color monitor, a sea surface temperature monitor, a Ku-band scatterometer, and an ARGOS meteorological data relay payload. The PSLV-XL PS4 fourth stage placed Oceansat-3 in a 740 km SSO and then made two additional burns to a 510 km orbit where a set of small satellites were deployed: Four Astrocast (Switzerland) 3U IoT satellites, the Anand imaging satellite for India's Pixxel, two 0.5U Thybolt communications satellites for Indian startup Dhruva Space, and the INS-2B India-Bhutan imaging satellite developed by ISRO in collaboration with Bhutan. Glonass-M --------- Russia launched a Glonass-M navigation satellite, codenamed Kosmos-2564, to a circular 12-hour orbit on Nov 28. Kosmos-2565 ----------- A Russian Defense Ministry satellite launched on Nov 30 from Plesetsk is probably a Lotos-S electronic intelligence satellite. On Dec 2 at 0722 UTC it circularized its orbit at 900 km as expected. However, on Dec 2 around 2300 UTC it unexpectedly released another object. Since the launch announcement talked about 'satellites', plural, it is assumed this object is a secondary payload of some kind. KZ-11 ----- The second CASIC/EXPACE Kuaizhou-11 launch - on Dec 7 - was successful. The payload is CASIC's Xingyun Jiaotong VDES Shiyan Weixing satellite with maritime-tracking VDES and AIS payloads. OneWeb ------- SpaceX launched 40 OneWeb satellites on Dec 8 to a 600 km deployment orbit. The Falcon 9 first stage landed back at Cape Canaveral's LZ-1. This is the first OneWeb launch on a Falcon 9. Jielong-3 --------- The China Long March Rocket Co. (Zhongguo Changzheng Houjian YG), a government-owned commercial launch provider associated with CALT, carried out the first launch of its Jielong-3 vehicle on Dec 9. Jielong-3 is a four-stage launch vehicle; the first three stages are solid-propellant and are almost identical to those in the Lijian-1 (ZK-1) rocket, while I believe the fourth stage uses liquid propellant. The rocket was launched from the Tai Rui barge in the Huang Hai (Yellow Sea) at about 123.7E 37.3N. Jielong-3 Y1 placed 14 satellites in orbit: - Seven Jilin-1 imaging satellites developed by Changguang Sat Tech Co., of which 3 were sponsored by Meishan Huantian Smart Tech CO. - Jilin-1 Pingtai 01A01, a Jilin-1 sat with combined imaging, comm and nav-augmentation payloads. - Fengtai Shaonian 2 (CAS-5A), a student amateur radio satellite - Jiaotong-5 (HEAD-2H), an IOT data relay satellite for HEAD Aerospace - Tianqi Xingzuo 07, for Guodian Gaokeji YG - Jin Zijing 1 No. 05 and No. 06, in the Golden Bauhinia series from Ling Zhong Kongjian and Hong Kong Aerospace Tech - Huoju-1, a cubesat with a microbe growth experiment for Huojian Pi SAST launches ------------- A SAST Chang Zheng 2D was launched on Dec 8 with the GF5-01A hyperspectral imaging satellite. iSpace ------ The private Japanese company iSpace launched its Hakuto-R Mission 1 lunar lander aboard a Falcon 9 at 0738 UTC on Dec 11. The Falcon 9 first stage landed at Landing Zone 2, Cape Canaveral. The second stage reached a 167 x 297 km x 29.0 deg parking orbit at 0746 UTC, and then restarted at 0818 UTC to reach a near-escape orbit with an apogee of 1.1 million km, near the Sun-Earth Hill Sphere boundary - but not in the direction of either the L1 or L2 Lagrange points. The second stage will likely be perturbed into solar orbit. At 0824 UTC iSpace's Hakuto-R M1 separated from stage 2; at 0831 UTC JPL's Lunar Flashlight cubesat separated from stage 2. Both spacecraft will make small trajectory adjustments near the Hill Sphere which will cause them to fall back to the lunar vicinity in around Mar 2023. Lunar Flashlight will use a solar sail, and will reflect light into shadowed craters to help its spectrometer detect any ice there. Hakuto-R will land on the lunar surface and deploy the UAE's 10 kg Rashid rover and JAXA's 0.25 kg SORA-Q wheeled robot. Erratum: -------- Spacewalk VKD-55 was on Nov 17, not Nov 18. Table of Recent Orbital Launches ---------------------------------- Date UT Name Launch Vehicle Site Mission INTL. Catalog Perigee Apogee Incl Notes Nov 1 1341 LDPE 2 Falcon Heavy Kennedy LC39A Tech 144A 36000 x 36000 x 2? USA 339 Unknown 144B 36000 x 36000 x 2? Nov 2 0647 Kosmos-2563 Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat Plesetsk EarlyWarn 145A 1622 x 38538 x 63.8 Nov 3 0522 Hot Bird 13G Falcon 9 Canaveral LC40 Comms 146A 410 x 57503 x 27.7 Nov 4 1727 MATS Electron Mahia 1B Sci 147A 581 x 597 x 97.7 Nov 5 1150 Zhongxing-19 Chang Zheng 3B Xichang LC2 Comms 148A 220 x 35787 x 28.4 Nov 7 1032 S.S. Sally Ride Antares 230+ Wallops LA0A Cargo 149A 227 x 332 x 51.7 Nov 10 0949 JPSS-2 (NOAA-21) Atlas V 401 Vandenberg SLC3E Weather 150A 801 x 819 x 98.7 LOFTID Tech 150 17 x 658 x 97.6 Nov 11 2252 Yunhai-3 Chang Zheng 6A Taiyuan Weather? 151A 840 x 856 x 98.8 Nov 12 0203 Tianzhou-5 Chang Zheng 7 Wenchang LC201 Cargo 152A 200 x 421 x 41.8 Nov 12 1606 Galaxy 31 Falcon 9 Canaveral LC40 Comms 153A 283 x 58433 x 24.2 Galaxy 32 Comms 153B 306 x 58459 x 22.3 Nov 13 2202 Zhixing-3A Tianzhou-4, LEO Tech? 50E 375 x 396 x 41.48 Nov 15 0138 Yaogan 34-03 Chang Zheng 4C Jiuquan Imaging? 154A 1092 x 1097 x 63.4 Nov 16 0620 Jilin-1 GF03D-08 Gushenxing-1 Jiuquan Imaging 155A Jilin-1 GF03D-51 Imaging 155 Jilin-1 GF03D-52 Imaging 155 Jilin-1 GF03D-53 Imaging 155 Jilin-1 GF03D-54 Imaging 155 Nov 16 0647 Artemis I SLS Block 1 Kennedy LC39B Spaceship 156A 517 x 376794 x 30.5 Nov 16 1027? Lunar IceCube OSA/ICPS-1, deep orbit Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 OMOTENASHI Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 EQUULEUS Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 BioSentinel 1 Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 ArgoMoon Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 Nov 16 1157? NEA Scout OSA/ICPS-1, deep orbit Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 Nov 16 1220? Luna HMap OSA/ICPS-1, deep orbit Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 Nov 16 1250? LunIR OSA/ICPS-1, deep orbit Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 Nov 16 1350? Miles OSA/ICPS-1, deep orbit Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 Nov 16 1450? CuSP OSA/ICPS-1, deep orbit Science 156 532 x 377388 x 30.3 Nov 18 0114 Hwasong-17 RV Hwasong-17? Sunan ICBM test U03 -6260 x 6100 x 41.6 Nov 23 0257 EUTELSAT 10B Falcon 9 Canaveral LC40 Comms 157A 261 x 59831 x 22.8 Nov 26 0626 Oceansat-3 PSLV-XL Satish Dhawan Rem.sens 158A 729 x 748 x 98.3 India Bhutan Sat Imaging 158 501 x 530 x 97.5 Anand Imaging 158 Astrocast-0301 Comms 158 Astrocast-0302 Comms 158 Astrocast-0303 Comms 158 Astrocast-0304 Comms 158 Thybolt 1 Comms 158 Thybolt 2 Comms 158 Nov 26 1920 Dragon CRS-26 Falcon 9 Kennedy LC39A Cargo 159A 208 x 240 x 51.7 Nov 27 1223 Yaogan 36 hao 03 zu 01 xing Chang Zheng 2D Xichang Sigint? 160A 487 x 502 x 35.0 Yaogan 36 hao 03 zu 02 xing Sigint? 160 Yaogan 36 hao 03 zu 03 xing Sigint? 160 Nov 28 1517 Kosmos-2564 Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat Plesetsk Nav 161A 19149 x 19508 x 64.8 Nov 29 1508 Shenzhou 15 Chang Zheng 2F Jiuquan Spaceship 162A 385 x 393 x 41.5 Nov 30 2110? Kosmos-2565 Soyuz-2-1B Plesetsk Sigint 163A 898 x 912 x 67.1 Kosmos-2566? Unk 163C 896 x 910 x 67.1 Dec 2 0750? SpaceTuna-1 ISS, LEO Sci 98067UL? 409 x 420 x 51.6 PearlAfricaSat-1 Tech 98067UM? 409 x 420 x 51.6 ZimSat-1 Tech 98067UN? 409 x 420 x 51.6 Taka Tech 98067UP? 409 x 420 x 51.6 Dec 7 0115 Xingyun Jiaotong VDES SW Kuaizhou-11 Jiuquan Comms 164A 737 x 749 x 98.4 Dec 8 1831 Gao Fen 5-01 Chang Zheng 2D Taiyuan Imaging 165A 668 x 683 x 98.1 Dec 8 2227 OneWeb L15 (40 sats) Falcon 9 Kennedy LC39A Comms 166 587 x 599 x 86.5 Dec 9 0635 Jilin-1 GF03D-44 Jielong-3 TaiRui, Yellow Sea Imaging 167 530 x 547 x 97.5 Jilin-1 GF03D-45 Imaging 167 Jilin-1 GF03D-46 Imaging 167 Jilin-1 GF03D-47 Imaging 167 Jilin-1 GF03D-48 Imaging 167 Jilin-1 GF03D-49 Imaging 167 Jilin-1 GF03D-50 Imaging 167 Jilin-1 Pingtai 01A01 Img/com? 167 Fengtai Shaonian 2 Comms 167 Jinzijing 1-05 Imaging 167 Jinzijing 1-06 Imaging 167 Jiaotong-5 Comms 167 Huoju-1 Bio 167 Tianqi Xingzuo 07 Comms 167 Dec 11 0738 Hakuto-R M1 Falcon 9 Canaveral LC40 Lunar 168A 293 x 1134167 x 29.1 Lunar Flashlight Lunar 168B 293 x 1134167 x 29.1 Table of Recent Suborbital Launches ----------------------------------- Date UT Payload/Flt Name Launch Vehicle Site Mission Apogee/km Target Nov 2 AAD AD-1 AAD AD-1 Kalam I. Test 150? Bay of Bengal Nov 2 2340 RV Hwasong-12? Sunan Test 1920 Sea of Japan Nov 3 RV x 4? Bulava G. Suvorov, White Sea Test 1000? Kura Nov 3 1235 RV Hwasong-6? Koksan Test 150 Sea of Japan Nov 3 1239 RV Hwasong-6? Koksan Test 150 Sea of Japan Nov 3 1242 RV Hwasong-6? Koksan Test 150 Sea of Japan Nov 5 Dummy payload Qaem-100 Shahroud Test 200? Arabian Sea? Nov 16 JFTM-07 Target Terr.Terr. Oriole Kauai Target 300? Pacific Nov 16 SM KV SM-3-IIA DDG-179, Pacific Interceptor 300? Intercept target Nov 18 0600 Prarambh Vikram-S Satish Dhawan Test 89 Bay of Bengal Nov 19 JFTM-07 Target Unknown Kauai Target 150? Pacific Nov 19 SM KV SM-3-IB DDG-180, Pacific Interceptor 150? Intercept target Nov 20 1720 ACES II High Black Brant IX Andoya Auroral 406 Norwegian Sea Nov 20 1721 ACES II Low Black Brant IX Andoya Auroral 188 Norwegian Sea Nov 23 0342 Agni RV Agni 3 Kalam I. Test 300? Bay of Bengal Nov 23 0723 MASER 15/S1X-3 VSB-30 Kiruna Microgravity 260 ESRANGE .-------------------------------------------------------------------------. | Jonathan McDowell | | | Somerville MA 02143 | inter : planet4589 at gmail | | USA | twitter: @planet4589 | | | | JSR: https://www.planet4589.org/jsr.html | | Back issues: https://www.planet4589.org/space/jsr/back | | Subscribe/unsub: https://www.planet4589.org/mailman/listinfo/jsr | '-------------------------------------------------------------------------' _______________________________________________ JSR mailing list JSR at planet4589.org http://www.planet4589.org/mailman/listinfo/jsr To unsubscribe, email jsr-leave at www.planet4589.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 13 04:29:11 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 20:29:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? Message-ID: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> We are seeing a dramatic transition play out at Twitter. It has now become my primary news source, surpassing Reason and Slashdot. Now I would put it in first place for finding information. I would credit Elon Musk for successfully saving Twitter, for we can see that on its previous path, losing money at that rate, it would have been in bankruptcy in the near term. Then we would either have no Twitter or a version of it with no moderation at all, which would likely devolve into the chaotic hellscape were told it would be now but isn't. We saw what Musk did with Twitter. What would any of us here have done any differently? I couldn't think of anything either. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 05:36:54 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 00:36:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 3:08 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 9, 2022 at 11:22 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Appending an easily accessible record of prior judgments by trusted >> authorities to a person's identifying profile >> > > ...appears to be generally not possible, at least not in a context where > most people will see it. > > Sex offender lists are a current attempt to do just this. They are > generally publicly accessible - and yet, most people remain unaware of > them. Only those specifically interested will look them up. Most people, > even close associates and business partners, will never think to check to > see if someone is on such a list, unless and until informed that a certain > person is - and even then, most people will accept being told that someone > is as they lack knowledge that they can independently verify this, let > alone knowledge of how to do so. Thus, claims of whether someone is or is > not on the sex offender list default to trusting other people who say that > person is or is not, rather than the authorities who should theoretically > be the sole source of this information. > > Appending an easily accessible record of prior judgments by trusted > authorities to a person's identifying profile seems likely to suffer the > same fate. > > >> It would be great to have an augmented reality app to create labels >> floating above all the people you see, just like in Warcraft. >> > > Similar efforts - with online labels, no augmented reality involved - have > resulted in organized efforts to strike down the platforms enabling it. > See the EU's "right to be forgotten" and American "right to privacy" laws, > enacted by popular demand. Granted, these came about in part because of > the persistence of false information in too many cases, but generally the > public seems unwilling to accept anyone having this ability over them, and > quite willing to pay the price of not having this ability over others. > > It is usually a very bad idea to let a single entity take over control of >> an aspect of social organisation. It is bad to have Vijaya Gadde decide >> that nobody in the country may hear about the infamous laptop. It would be >> bad to have a central labeling authority in charge of giving people a bad >> name, like "slanderer" or "racist". There *must* be freely competing >> authorities that collate information and make judgments. >> > > The free market is impeded from ensuring fair competition in this case. > One authority is encouraged to post information leading to the shutdown of > its competitors, winding up with a single entity taking control. > > By default this will be the government, which already tries to maintain a > monopoly on violence precisely so it can be the single entity for things > like this. As we already have a government, and likely will in any path > leading from where we are to implementation of this idea, there would need > to be a way to keep the government from simply assuming control regardless > of the intentions - and even attempted use of force - of whoever implements > this idea. > ### You seem to say that my modest proposal would be impossible to implement, useless if implemented, nobody would pay attention to it, and they would want to forbid it anyway. Oddly enough, this makes me more confident it could work :) ------------------------------- > > >> In the example above, I might be called a slanderer - and you might wind >>> up dead. >>> >> >> ### I don't follow your logic here. Please explain a *plausible* chain of >> events and mechanism of things happening. >> > > A simple extrapolation similar to events that have happened to others. > 1) I call you a predatory child rapist, and post made up evidence. > 2) Some armed vigilante believes it, hunts you down (I may have posted > your address too), and kills you without considering whether I might be > lying. > 3) It comes out that I was lying. The vigilante regrets killing you. > You're still dead. > ### The prosecutor interviews the vigilante. The vigilante tells him he killed me after being influenced by the slanderous statements the bad guy made. The prosecutor opens a case against him for incitement to violence, accessory to murder, etc. The jury decides that the vigilante, who had good intentions but was just too dumb to check his sources, gets off with a slap on the wrist but the bad guy, as the malicious and ultimate cause of my death, has to be punished with exemplary severity. He is put to death. Other potential malicious slanderers think twice before posting hateful shit online. To summarize, the bad guy is not prohibited from saying hateful shit but the bad guy will be punished if this shit harms someone. Justice is done but all speech is still sacred. ----------------------------- > > I am reminded of the Mars hive mind from A Miracle Of Science. You might > want to skim that Webcomic - the hive mind appears in the middle and near > the end, as I recall - for inspiration. You have the beginnings of a good > idea here; I'm just poking holes in the details, in particular as it > applies to our current real world environment. > ### Thank you! Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 05:57:35 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 00:57:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: <000401d90cad$e7305440$b590fcc0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <000401d90cad$e7305440$b590fcc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 10:43 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 9, 2022 at 11:22 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > >?Appending an easily accessible record of prior judgments by trusted > authorities? > > > > > > > > > > Hmmmm? ja I see the intent there. I am tripping over the ?trusted > authorities? term. We must recognize the culture war, such as American > society is now actively engaged, results in ?trusted authorities? have an > agenda of their own, which causes the quoted phrase to be > self-contradictory. Example: authorities trusted by some are seeking to > identify parents who object to common schoolboard policy as domestic > terrorists. I see this as an indication that trusted (by some) authorities > were in such desperate need of domestic terrorists that it was forced to > manufacture them. > ### The core of what I suggest is that speech must be managed with speech, not with violence. The only allowable response to words is more words. Incarceration, beatings and similar physical actions are not justified. The authorities I am referring to would only speak, never act in other ways. Not being able to beat anybody into submission, such authorities would have to earn trust by being reasonable, as judged by all who might consider voluntarily deferring to them, since if users saw them as unreasonable they would not pay attention to them, and thus such authorities would stop being authorities altogether - they would be just flapping their mouths uselessly. Of course, there would be a substantial tribal aspect to the authorities that would emerge but this would be just a reflection of the diversity of the population. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 05:59:00 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 00:59:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 10:54 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > It seems to me that it all comes down to who should and who should not > censor. Private companies can do it without any constitutional > violations. Are we OK with that? If you are not, you are not a > libertarian. > > So, aside from media companies, where should totally free speech be > allowed? Including freedom to libel and slander. There are, of course, > public obscenity laws, where obscenity is defined by the courts. ("I know > it when I see it.") In effect, there are no public outlets for totally > free speech. > ### Regrettably. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 06:02:33 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 01:02:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] All speech is sacred or why Warcraftification of real life is a solution to various ills In-Reply-To: <00c301d90cdb$c44de270$4ce9a750$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d907ec$732dadb0$59890910$@rainier66.com> <013e01d90825$5a652310$0f2f6930$@rainier66.com> <006b01d908b1$a85c5fc0$f9151f40$@rainier66.com> <00a501d908d1$09a42640$1cec72c0$@rainier66.com> <00f401d908e5$02169e30$0643da90$@rainier66.com> <004501d90cca$bddbb540$39931fc0$@rainier66.com> <006c01d90cce$de74e7a0$9b5eb6e0$@rainier66.com> <00c301d90cdb$c44de270$4ce9a750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 4:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > A free press is the watchdog over government, not the lapdog under > government. > > > ### The press must be the watchdog, not the lapdog! A most apt saying. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 08:22:50 2022 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 00:22:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2022, at 8:31 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > We are seeing a dramatic transition play out at Twitter. It has now become my primary news source, surpassing Reason and Slashdot. Now I would put it in first place for finding information. > > I would credit Elon Musk for successfully saving Twitter, for we can see that on its previous path, losing money at that rate, it would have been in bankruptcy in the near term. Then we would either have no Twitter or a version of it with no moderation at all, which would likely devolve into the chaotic hellscape were told it would be now but isn?t. > > We saw what Musk did with Twitter. What would any of us here have done any differently? I couldn?t think of anything either. > > spike Would you share some before and after examples? I bring this up because I?m not seeing it. I am seeing less overall news in my feed. (I see a lot of RWNJ content too, but I?m not sure I?m seeing more of this than before Musk took over.) I credit Musk with wasting his time and resources+ on Twitter. From a posthumanist perspective, he could?ve sunk that money into research projects involving longevity, IA, AI, nanotech, and even pure science research. (I mean even stuff where there?s no expected money return. If I had over 40 billion USD to throw around, aside from just living well and making my friends and many others no longer have to worry about much in the way of normal financial concerns (food, rent, medical bills, student loans), I?d be funding life extension research, cryonics research, and more. I would not be trying to pretend I was championing civilization by embracing thugs and bigots.) Regards, Dan * Heck, even he tried to back out of the deal, which tells you at least some of his actions are face-saving to mask that he really wanted to walk away from this. In fact, he was sued and lost that case in court. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 13 14:45:43 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:45:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? On Dec 12, 2022, at 8:31 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? >>?We saw what Musk did with Twitter. What would any of us here have done any differently? I couldn?t think of anything either. spike >?Would you share some before and after examples? I bring this up because I?m not seeing it. I am seeing less overall news in my feed. (I see a lot of RWNJ content too, but I?m not sure I?m seeing more of this than before Musk took over.)? Dan ? Dan, with Twitter you are in complete control of your own news feed on Twitter. If you identify a RWNJ, stop following that source. Simple. This could explain why you are seeing less overall news in your feed, but I am seeing a lot more now. You wanted an example. OK there was a local crime story I didn?t hear about when it happened, but received a link a few days later on Twitter to the FBI report and the mainstream news story. I noted that they contradicted each other, and that some of the contradictions (well, nearly all of them) were not resolved. Or if so, I haven?t heard the resolution. Some of the references said the attacker was green party registered, another said he is not a US citizen. Which? Is the green party somehow registering non-citizens now? Is the body cam video being intentionally withheld for a reason? What reason? Are people being called conspiracy theorists for asking obvious questions? Does that mean one can be a theorist without a theory? Am I the only person who read that FBI report and can make no sense of it? Consider the come-to-Jesus confessions that Twitter2.0 is doing now, hoping it doesn?t get its corporate butt sued off for what Twitter1.0 did. That is some huge news there. Note that the mainstream news sources don?t want to talk a lot about that stuff. But Twitter is buzzing about it, as it should be: The FBI met with internet social media companies to shape content? Indeed? In any case, Twitter has become my main news source because I can control it, unlike the mainstream press which chooses what you see and your only choice is take it or leave it. I can adjust Twitter to focus more on local stuff (such as that hammer business (San Francisco has become a damn scary dangerous place in the past 20 years (all while San Jose has generally become far less scary than it once was (why is that? (I think it is because so many cities are exporting their problems and poster children to San Francisco.)))) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Tue Dec 13 14:56:37 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:56:37 +0000 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 9:45 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > In any case, Twitter has become my main news source because I can control it, unlike the mainstream press which chooses what you see and your only choice is take it or leave it. I don't use twitter as a news source, but that sounds like a great way to create an echo chamber. People naturally like them because they confirm their biases, but they really aren't a great way to stay informed. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 13 15:09:15 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 07:09:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? On Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 9:45 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?In any case, Twitter has become my main news source because I can control it, unlike the mainstream press which chooses what you see and your only choice is take it or leave it. >?I don't use twitter as a news source, but that sounds like a great way to create an echo chamber. People naturally like them because they confirm their biases, but they really aren't a great way to stay informed. -Dave Mainstream news is better? How? Why are there still so many unanswered questions please? Such as? the obvious ones regarding that hammer business: why are we not being shown the police video? And why do we still have so many unanswered questions about the guy who appears to have led the Jan 6 riot on the capitol, Ray Epps? Where is he, and why can?t the FBI find him? Reporters seem to be able to find him. Mainstream news isn?t asking those kinds of questions Dave. If Twitter echoes questions, well OK then, let them echo until we get some answers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Tue Dec 13 15:49:09 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:49:09 +0000 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 10:09 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>>?I don't use twitter as a news source, but that sounds like a great way to create an echo chamber. People naturally like them because they confirm their biases, but they really aren't a great way to stay informed.-Dave > > Mainstream news is better? I think that's a false dichotomy. There are lots of choices between "a collection of random people on twitter" and "mainstream news". I think it's important to get news from a variety of sources and to not take everything any source says as gospel. > How? Why are there still so many unanswered questions please? There will always be many unanswered questions. Law enforcement generally doesn't like to show their hand before they get in the courtroom. > Such as? the obvious ones regarding that hammer business: why are we not being shown the police video? I don't know. What do your Twitter sources say about that? Maybe they're trying to respect the victim's privacy. Surely FOIA requests have been filed. Unanswered question don't always mean there's a conspiracy. > And why do we still have so many unanswered questions about the guy who appears to have led the Jan 6 riot on the capitol, Ray Epps? Where is he, and why can?t the FBI find him? Reporters seem to be able to find him. Mainstream news isn?t asking those kinds of questions Dave. Seems like the NYT addressed these questions: Prominent Republicans ? including former President Donald J. Trump ? have for months promoted a conspiracy theory that an Arizona man named Ray Epps was a federal informant who helped to instigate the attack on the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. The claims, made in congressional hearing rooms, on Fox News and at Mr. Trump?s political rallies, have largely been based on a video taken just before violence erupted at the Capitol, showing Mr. Epps at the barricades outside the building whispering into the ear of a man named Ryan Samsel. Within moments of the brief exchange, Mr. Samsel, a Pennsylvania barber, can be seen moving forward and confronting the police in what amounted to the tipping point of the riot. Despite lacking proof for their claims, many Republicans have surmised that Mr. Epps instructed Mr. Samsel to antagonize the officers. They have also pushed the notion that because Mr. Epps has not been arrested, he must have been working for the government. But for more than a year, well before the name Ray Epps was widely known in right-wing circles, federal authorities have had information ? from both him and Mr. Samsel ? suggesting that he was not a government agent and did not encourage the younger man to engage with the police that day. Just two days after the attack, when Mr. Epps saw himself on a list of suspects from Jan. 6, he called an F.B.I. tip line and told investigators that he had tried to calm Mr. Samsel down when they spoke, according to three people who have heard a recording of the call. Mr. Epps went on to say that he explained to Mr. Samsel that the police outside the building were merely doing their jobs, the people said. Then in late January of last year, in an interview with the F.B.I., Mr. Samsel said much the same thing, telling investigators that a man he did not know came up to him at the barricades and suggested he relax, according to a recording of the interview obtained by The New York Times. ?He came up to me and he said, ?Dude? ? his entire words were, ?Relax, the cops are doing their job,?? Mr. Samsel said.? The theories surrounding Mr. Epps have been debunked before, most notably after[he spoke last](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/11/us/politics/ray-epps-january-6-committee.html) [year to investigators](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/11/us/politics/ray-epps-january-6-committee.html)working with the House select committee examining the Jan. 6 attack. During the interview, committee officials said, Mr. Epps said that he was not an F.B.I. informant and denied reports that he had urged protesters to go into the Capitol at the behest of federal law enforcement agencies. ? Still, the rumors about him have persisted, becoming regular fodder for right-wing politicians and media figures. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/us/jan-6-ray-epps-evidence.html Editors? Picks [The Wife Left, but They?re Still Together](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/10/style/living-apart-together-marriage.html?action=click&algo=identity&block=editors_picks_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=821838275&impression_id=fdf00920-7afb-11ed-a071-db1ffb2dddee&index=0&pgtype=Article&pool=editors-picks-ls®ion=ccolumn&req_id=439459298&surface=home-featured&variant=holdout_home-featured-c&action=click&module=editorContent&pgtype=Article®ion=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending)[How to Save Yourself from ?Task Paralysis?](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/12/well/mind/task-paralysis.html?action=click&algo=identity&block=editors_picks_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=250652726&impression_id=fdf00921-7afb-11ed-a071-db1ffb2dddee&index=1&pgtype=Article&pool=editors-picks-ls®ion=ccolumn&req_id=439459298&surface=home-featured&variant=holdout_home-featured-c&action=click&module=editorContent&pgtype=Article®ion=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending)[How to Calculate a Holiday Tip for the Doorman](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/10/realestate/holiday-tipping-guide.html?action=click&algo=identity&block=editors_picks_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=925696729&impression_id=fdf00922-7afb-11ed-a071-db1ffb2dddee&index=2&pgtype=Article&pool=editors-picks-ls®ion=ccolumn&req_id=439459298&surface=home-featured&variant=holdout_home-featured-c&action=click&module=editorContent&pgtype=Article®ion=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending) [Continue reading the main story](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/us/jan-6-ray-epps-evidence.html?action=click&module=editorContent&pgtype=Article®ion=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending#after-pp_edpick) > If Twitter echoes questions, well OK then, let them echo until we get some answers. > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 15:56:22 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 07:56:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 7:10 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Mainstream news is better? How? > They lie less often and less blatantly. Not never - I'm sure you can think of a number of examples - just to a lesser degree. > regarding that hammer business: why are we not being shown the police > video? > Because the police have not released it. That's not the media's fault. > And why do we still have so many unanswered questions about the guy who > appears to have led the Jan 6 riot on the capitol, Ray Epps? Where is he, > and why can?t the FBI find him? > Apparently he was framed. The FBI, knowing this, has no need to arrest him. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/13/us/politics/jan-6-conspiracy-theory-ray-epps.html That you are asking these questions, which are trivially answerable (with some honest quick searching in the latter case), suggests that your choice of media is lying to you. The "echo chamber" you are being warned about masks these lies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Tue Dec 13 16:05:56 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 08:05:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <31EFE8FA-D094-449A-9E3F-60DCA51A60FB@taramayastales.com> Twitter is definitely a live in experiment in humans dealing with AI. Part of the problem with it is all the bots distorting the conversation, giving a false Overton Window to manipulate the human need to feel part of a majority. > On Dec 13, 2022, at 12:22 AM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > research projects involving .... AI, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 13 16:11:44 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 08:11:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014701d90f0d$98a08b30$c9e1a190$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, 13 December, 2022 7:49 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Dave S Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? On Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 10:09 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >? I think it's important to get news from a variety of sources and to not take everything any source says as gospel? Ja. This is why Twitter is a good place to get news: lots of variety. ? >?I don't know. What do your Twitter sources say about that? Maybe they're trying to respect the victim's privacy. Surely FOIA requests have been filed. Unanswered question don't always mean there's a conspiracy? Dave I will tell you what it looks like: the FBI is hiding something. It really isn?t the hammer guy or even the resident that is important here: the FBI has a persistent serious credibility problem, and this is making it worse. That video will eventually see the light of day. Then we get to see if the FBI wrote a false report, which would explain why it doesn?t make much sense. >?Seems like the NYT addressed these questions: In this passage, where does it explain why Epps is on multiple videos shouting to the crowd that they must go inside the capitol, inside the capitol. Where does it explain why Epps crossed the police line as we also saw in multiple videos, but was not charged with trespassing, as were others who also crossed that same barricade? Epps wasn?t charged even though he is seen with a bullhorn in at least one video, clearly instigating a riot. We have cases of others who did not urge anyone to go inside the capitol inside capitol who crossed the police line and were charged with serious offenses. Had these others gotten into the crowd urging them to go inside the capitol inside the capitol, would they too have been immune to going across the police line as Ray Epps was? Why does urging a crowd to go inside the capitol inside the capitol make one immune from trespassing charges? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEDamt4YaXM The NYT article didn?t address any of the obvious questions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 13 16:14:06 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 08:14:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?Apparently he was framed. The FBI, knowing this, has no need to arrest him. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/13/us/politics/jan-6-conspiracy-theory-ray-epps.html ? Ah, framed! It isn?t Ray Epps urging the crowd to go inside the capitol inside the capitol? Who is it? Has the FBI any leads on the identity of the inside the capitol inside the capitol guy, who framed Ray Epps? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Tue Dec 13 16:27:32 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:27:32 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough Message-ID: We interrupt this conspiracy theory discussion for some intersting science news. -Dave https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition National Ignition Facility achieves fusion ignition [Share to Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition&title=National%20Ignition%20Facility%20achieves%20fusion%20ignition)[Share to Twitter](https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=National%20Ignition%20Facility%20achieves%20fusion%20ignition+https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition)[Share to Linkedin](https://www.linkedin.com/sharing/share-offsite/?url=https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition)[Share to Email](mailto:?subject=National%20Ignition%20Facility%20achieves%20fusion%20ignition&body=https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition) The[U.S. Department of Energy](https://www.energy.gov/)(DOE) and DOE?s[National Nuclear Security Administration](https://www.energy.gov/nnsa/national-nuclear-security-administration)(NNSA) today announced the achievement of fusion ignition at[Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory](https://www.llnl.gov/)(LLNL) ? a major scientific breakthrough decades in the making that will pave the way for advancements in national defense and the future of clean power. On Dec. 5, a team at LLNL?s[National Ignition Facility](https://lasers.llnl.gov/)(NIF) conducted the first controlled fusion experiment in history to reach this milestone, also known as scientific energy breakeven, meaning it produced more energy from fusion than the laser energy used to drive it. This first-of-its-kind feat will provide unprecedented capability to support NNSA?s Stockpile Stewardship Program and will provide invaluable insights into the prospects of clean fusion energy, which would be a game-changer for efforts to achieve President Biden?s goal of a net-zero carbon economy. ?This is a landmark achievement for the researchers and staff at the National Ignition Facility who have dedicated their careers to seeing fusion ignition become a reality, and this milestone will undoubtedly spark even more discovery,? said U.S. Secretary of Energy Jennifer M. Granholm. ?The Biden-Harris Administration is committed to supporting our world-class scientists ? like the team at NIF ? whose work will help us solve humanity?s most complex and pressing problems, like providing clean power to combat climate change and maintaining a nuclear deterrent without nuclear testing.? ?We have had a theoretical understanding of fusion for over a century, but the journey from knowing to doing can be long and arduous. Today?s milestone shows what we can do with perseverance,? said Dr. Arati Prabhakar, the President?s chief adviser for Science and Technology and director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy. ?Monday, December 5, 2022, was a historic day in science thanks to the incredible people at Livermore Lab and the National Ignition Facility. In making this breakthrough, they have opened a new chapter in NNSA?s Stockpile Stewardship Program,? NNSA Administrator Jill Hruby said. ?I would like to thank the members of Congress who have supported the National Ignition Facility because their belief in the promise of visionary science has been critical for our mission. Our team from around the DOE national laboratories and our international partners have shown us the power of collaboration.? ?The pursuit of fusion ignition in the laboratory is one of the most significant scientific challenges ever tackled by humanity, and achieving it is a triumph of science, engineering, and most of all, people,? LLNL Director Dr. Kim Budil said. ?Crossing this threshold is the vision that has driven 60 years of dedicated pursuit ? a continual process of learning, building, expanding knowledge and capability, and then finding ways to overcome the new challenges that emerged. These are the problems that the U.S. national laboratories were created to solve.? ?This astonishing scientific advance puts us on the precipice of a future no longer reliant on fossil fuels but instead powered by new clean fusion energy,? U.S. Senate Majority Leader Charles Schumer (NY) said. ?I commend Lawrence Livermore National Labs and its partners in our nation?s Inertial Confinement Fusion (ICF) program, including the University of Rochester?s Lab for Laser Energetics in New York, for achieving this breakthrough. Making this future clean energy world a reality will require our physicists, innovative workers and brightest minds at our DOE-funded institutions, including the Rochester Laser Lab, to double down on their cutting-edge work. That?s why I?m also proud to announce today that I?ve helped to secure the highest-ever authorization of over $624 million this year in the National Defense Authorization Act for the ICF program to build on this amazing breakthrough.? ?After more than a decade of scientific and technical innovation, I congratulate the team at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and the National Ignition Facility for their historic accomplishment,? said U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (CA). ?This is an exciting step in fusion and everyone at Lawrence Livermore and NIF should be proud of this milestone achievement.? ?This is an historic, innovative achievement that builds on the contributions of generations of Livermore scientists. Today, our nation stands on their collective shoulders. We still have a long way to go, but this is a critical step and I commend the U.S. Department of Energy and all who contributed toward this promising breakthrough, which could help fuel a brighter clean energy future for the United States and humanity,? said U.S. Senator Jack Reed (RI), the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. ?This monumental scientific breakthrough is a milestone for the future of clean energy,? said U.S. Senator Alex Padilla (CA). ?While there is more work ahead to harness the potential of fusion energy, I am proud that California scientists continue to lead the way in developing clean energy technologies. I congratulate the scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory for their dedication to a clean energy future, and I am committed to ensuring they have all of the tools and funding they need to continue this important work.? ?This is a very big deal. We can celebrate another performance record by the National Ignition Facility. This latest achievement is particularly remarkable because NIF used a less spherically symmetrical target than in the August 2021 experiment,? said U.S. Representative Zoe Lofgren (CA-19). ?This significant advancement showcases the future possibilities for the commercialization of fusion energy. Congress and the Administration need to fully fund and properly implement the fusion research provisions in the recent CHIPS and Science Act and likely more. During World War II, we crafted the Manhattan Project for a timely result. The challenges facing the world today are even greater than at that time. We must double down and accelerate the research to explore new pathways for the clean, limitless energy that fusion promises.? ?I am thrilled that NIF ? the United States? most cutting-edge nuclear research facility ? has achieved fusion ignition, potentially providing for a new clean and sustainable energy source in the future. This breakthrough will ensure the safety and reliability of our nuclear stockpile, open new frontiers in science, and enable progress toward new ways to power our homes and offices in future decades,? said U.S. Representative Eric Swalwell (CA-15). ?I commend the scientists and researchers for their hard work and dedication that led to this monumental scientific achievement, and I will continue to push for robust funding for NIF to support advancements in fusion research.? LLNL?s experiment surpassed the fusion threshold by delivering 2.05 megajoules (MJ) of energy to the target, resulting in 3.15 MJ of fusion energy output, demonstrating for the first time a most fundamental science basis for inertial fusion energy (IFE). Many advanced science and technology developments are still needed to achieve simple, affordable IFE to power homes and businesses, and DOE is currently restarting a broad-based, coordinated IFE program in the United States. Combined with private-sector investment, there is a lot of momentum to drive rapid progress toward fusion commercialization. Fusion is the process by which two light nuclei combine to form a single heavier nucleus, releasing a large amount of energy. In the 1960s, a group of pioneering scientists at LLNL hypothesized that lasers could be used to induce fusion in a laboratory setting. Led by physicist John Nuckolls, who later served as LLNL director from 1988 to 1994, this revolutionary idea became inertial confinement fusion, kicking off more than 60 years of research and development in lasers, optics, diagnostics, target fabrication, computer modeling and simulation and experimental design. To pursue this concept, LLNL built a series of increasingly powerful laser systems, leading to the creation of NIF, the world?s largest and most energetic laser system. NIF ? located at LLNL in Livermore, California ? is the size of a sports stadium and uses powerful laser beams to create temperatures and pressures like those in the cores of stars and giant planets, and inside exploding nuclear weapons. Achieving ignition was made possible by dedication from LLNL employees as well as countless collaborators at DOE?s Los Alamos National Laboratory, Sandia National Laboratories and Nevada National Security Site; General Atomics; academic institutions, including the University of Rochester?s Laboratory for Laser Energetics, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of California, Berkeley, and Princeton University; international partners, including the United Kingdom?s Atomic Weapons Establishment and the French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission; and stakeholders at DOE and NNSA and in Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 16:57:57 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 08:57:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 8:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > > > >?Apparently he was framed. The FBI, knowing this, has no need to arrest > him. Source: > https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/13/us/politics/jan-6-conspiracy-theory-ray-epps.html > > ? > > > > Ah, framed! It isn?t Ray Epps urging the crowd to go inside the capitol > inside the capitol? Who is it? Has the FBI any leads on the identity of > the inside the capitol inside the capitol guy, who framed Ray Epps? > "Framed" might not be the most precise word. It's whatever you and people like you are doing, to assume he must be guilty. (So to literally answer those last two questions: the FBI knows that it's you and many like you. It's not "the" person, it's a bunch of people - some acting independently, most of them fed simple but misleading logic and/or partially or entirely false data - way too many to arrest over simple defamation, as is often the true source of what at first seem to be conspiracies of this nature.) Urge people to go in, he did. Do so at the behest of the FBI, he did not. As the linked-to story puts it: "While Mr. Epps was a participant in some of the events that unfolded on Jan. 6, the claim that he inspired the Capitol riot in a ?false flag? plot is solely based on the fact that he has never been arrested and therefore must be under the protection of the government." "Mr. Epps said that he had acted stupidly at times when he and one of his sons took a last-minute trip to Washington for Mr. Trump?s speech about election fraud. But he said that he had managed to avoid arrest because he reached out to the F.B.I. within minutes of discovering that agents wanted to speak with him and demonstrated during interviews with them that he had spent much of his time at the Capitol seeking to calm down other rioters, an assertion supported by multiple video clips." This is but one of many things you are wrong about, Spike, which you could easily discover the truth about if you were willing to do so* - and which most of us on this list know how to find out the truth about. Indeed, one might say that Internet-enabled ease of discovering these truths is one of the transhuman technologies we had hoped would enlighten the world...and it still can. * That you continue to aggressively spout such questions, and specifically the manner in which you ask (as if the only possible answer was your preconceived notion even when it goes against the evidence), suggests that you are unwilling to honestly seek the truth. That is what offends many of us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 13 20:18:35 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 12:18:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? >?"Framed" might not be the most precise word. It's whatever you and people like you are doing, to assume he must be guilty? Adrian, I didn?t assume Ray Epps is guilty. Either Epps or the guy who framed him urged the crowd to go inside the capitol inside the capitol. Somebody did that. That person is guilty of inciting a riot. I didn?t assume Ray Epps is guilty, but somebody was doing that. Asking a question doesn?t assume anything and isn?t a theory. I will tell you what it looks like, but that isn?t necessary. Plenty of us think that guy on the video inciting a riot was Ray Epps, and plenty of us think he did instigate that riot (because we saw him do it on video.) Plenty of us think he crossed the police barrier (because we saw him do it on video.) What Ray Epps (or whoever framed him) really needs is some video suggesting that he was calming other rioters when it appears on multiple other video he was urging them to go inside the capitol inside the capitol. Adrian the reason this is important is that the FBI has an enormous credibility problem that they are ignoring as hard as they can, pretending if they can just ignore it hard enough, it will go away. It isn?t going away, it is continuing to eat away at the FBI?s credibility. Musk?s actions the last coupla weeks suggest that the FBI did still more highly questionable stuff, such as meeting with FaceBook and Twitter1.0 to suppress a message. Note there is no partisan anything here, no left vs right. The FBI doesn?t have a party. Those guys are law enforcement. They need to clear the air a bit methinks. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 21:06:52 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 13:06:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 12:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >?"Framed" might not be the most precise word. It's whatever you and > people like you are doing, to assume he must be guilty? > > > > Adrian, I didn?t assume Ray Epps is guilty. Either Epps or the guy who > framed him urged the crowd to go inside the capitol inside the capitol. > Somebody did that. That person is guilty of inciting a riot. > Until now, you kept saying the problem was that the FBI's plant did this, not merely the incitement itself. Pretending that I mean guilty of the incitement, rather than of being a false flag, does not change what I was clearly talking about. Refer to https://www.econlib.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/goalpost.gif . I could just as easily quote only "I didn't assume Ray Epps is guilty." and say that you had accused him of raping children without there being any identifiable children apparently raped by him and therefore you had assumed he was guilty. > Adrian the reason this is important is that the FBI has an enormous > credibility problem > Musk?s actions the last coupla weeks suggest that the FBI did still more > highly questionable stuff > And here you are again, noting that it is the FBI's alleged involvement that is the issue. Why do you think this list will fall for that, when time after time you keep trying and we haven't? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 22:13:28 2022 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:13:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yes, Yes. Please oh please, STOP all the *Bleating and Tweeting* that is ripping society apart. The business model of all these bubbly "social networks" is to find things we disagree on, then fan the bleating and tweeting flame wars as much as possible. We won't be able to survive this unless people do the work required to implement a solution to this problem. No matter where you go on the internet, even the so-called "trusted news sources" and any so-called "peer reviewed Journals" someone can just call it "fake news", as is even evident on this long thread getting off on polarizing tangents, already. We desperately need a trusted source of information, which can be achieved by building and tracking consensus on important moral topics. Nothing is censored on Canonizer, but you can't stop someone from creating a camp to point out how evil a camp is. And of course the good camps will achieve far more consensus than the haters in lonely camps, finally achieving some trusted sources of information. Just FYI, our 3.0 from the ground up rewrite of Canonizer.com is about to go live, so it might finally be a bit more usable. I trust all you guys so here is an early link to our beta version of canonizer . Do you think this is any better than the current 2.0 version of Canonizer.com ? Nobody can do this alone. We need help from people to achieve a critical mass. Otherwise I fear we will all end up destroying ourselves as we approach the singularity. Before you bleat or tweet something questionable, canonize it so people can have a chance to weigh in on, and build consensus around the most moral camp. Building and tracking consensus is what I'm working to do differently! Thanks, Brent On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 7:57 AM Dave S via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 9:45 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > In any case, Twitter has become my main news source because I can control > it, unlike the mainstream press which chooses what you see and your only > choice is take it or leave it. > > > I don't use twitter as a news source, but that sounds like a great way to > create an echo chamber. People naturally like them because they confirm > their biases, but they really aren't a great way to stay informed. > > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 13 22:16:59 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:16:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 12:20 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? >>?Adrian, I didn?t assume Ray Epps is guilty. Either Epps or the guy who framed him urged the crowd to go inside the capitol inside the capitol. Somebody did that. That person is guilty of inciting a riot. >?Until now, you kept saying the problem was that the FBI's plant did this, not merely the incitement itself? That IS the problem Adrian! The graphics of all this is terrible for the FBI. We have the bastard (either Ray Epps or someone who looks like him) on video inciting a riot with that ?inside the capitol inside the capitol? business, clearly unambiguously inciting a riot in which one person was shot and killed, another trampled, but that guy wasn?t arrested. The FBI, under oath and directly questioned by a senator flatly refuses to answer why that guy wasn?t arrested. That is the problem, a really big one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 22:24:34 2022 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:24:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: P.S. Can anyone recall how bad things were in this group on the topic of "qualia" before canonizer came along? Everyone bleating and tweeting the same old TERRIBLE arguments for one side or another, over and over, add infinitem, every time someone mentioned qualia? Then has anyone noticed how different things are once this emerging consensus topic on canonizer showed up? Instead of all the bleating and tweeting, now everyone just points to their current camp, and everyone can see the current state of all of our continued finally great discussions. Heck even Stathis is now on the verge of admitting the popular consensus functionalists are wrong , right Stathis? And functionalism has significantly decreased in consensus. We never could have achieved that much progress without canonizer. Brent On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 3:13 PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Yes, Yes. > Please oh please, STOP all the *Bleating and Tweeting* that is ripping > society apart. > The business model of all these bubbly "social networks" is to find things > we disagree on, then fan the bleating and tweeting flame wars as much as > possible. > We won't be able to survive this > unless people do the work > required to implement a solution to this problem. > No matter where you go on the internet, even the so-called "trusted news > sources" and any so-called "peer reviewed Journals" someone can just call > it "fake news", as is even evident on this long thread getting off on > polarizing tangents, already. > > We desperately need a trusted source of information, which can be achieved > by building and tracking consensus on important moral topics. Nothing is > censored on Canonizer, but you can't stop someone from creating a camp to > point out how evil a camp is. And of course the good camps will achieve > far more consensus than the haters in lonely camps, finally achieving some > trusted sources of information. > > Just FYI, our 3.0 from the ground up rewrite of Canonizer.com is about to > go live, so it might finally be a bit more usable. > I trust all you guys so here is an early link to our beta version of > canonizer . Do you think this is any better > than the current 2.0 version of Canonizer.com ? > > Nobody can do this alone. We need help from people to achieve a critical > mass. Otherwise I fear we will all end up destroying ourselves as we > approach the singularity. > Before you bleat or tweet something questionable, canonize it so people > can have a chance to weigh in on, and build consensus around the most moral > camp. > > Building and tracking consensus is what I'm working to do differently! > > Thanks, > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 7:57 AM Dave S via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 9:45 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> In any case, Twitter has become my main news source because I can control >> it, unlike the mainstream press which chooses what you see and your only >> choice is take it or leave it. >> >> >> I don't use twitter as a news source, but that sounds like a great way to >> create an echo chamber. People naturally like them because they confirm >> their biases, but they really aren't a great way to stay informed. >> >> >> -Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 13 22:41:15 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:41:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <025401d90f44$02e22c70$08a68550$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat >?heck even Stathis is now on the verge of admitting the popular consensus functionalists are wrong , right Stathis?... Brent Brent I fear Stathis left us in a huff because I was rejoicing in what Elon Musk is doing now. Well, I am rejoicing, and I understand why: I would be doing the same thing right now. Musk is shining the bright rays of sunlight into a filthy and badly infected dark corner. I am cheering for the photons. Team bacteria isn?t as happy as I am. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 23:20:06 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 18:20:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Twitter is exactly identical to what it was except now Elon is pushing his cringe posts to my feed even though I don't follow him. NOTHING has changed, you are experiencing a delusion in that regard. I also kinda doubt you ever used it much before so I think it's probably not possible for you to make a before/after statement. Twitter has always been this: good for in-the-moment breaking news and community investigations, but prone to bubbly echo-chamber stuff as well as witch hunts and misinfo/disinfo spreading fast. The condensing of posts down to around 200 characters also results in things being much stupider. Overall I am mostly just kind of shocked that there really is a belief out there that Twitter has changed much at all or that it even could change so much so quickly. Everything is mostly the same and while new rules and management might be pushing it in a better direction, it's 100% placebo if you think you can see drastic changes already. More likely, you just never really knew what Twitter was like. On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 11:30 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > We are seeing a dramatic transition play out at Twitter. It has now > become my primary news source, surpassing Reason and Slashdot. Now I would > put it in first place for finding information. > > > > I would credit Elon Musk for successfully saving Twitter, for we can see > that on its previous path, losing money at that rate, it would have been in > bankruptcy in the near term. Then we would either have no Twitter or a > version of it with no moderation at all, which would likely devolve into > the chaotic hellscape were told it would be now but isn?t. > > > > We saw what Musk did with Twitter. What would any of us here have done > any differently? I couldn?t think of anything either. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 13 23:39:17 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:39:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? >?Twitter is exactly identical to what it was except now Elon is pushing his cringe posts to my feed even though I don't follow him? Is there an active block feature? You are right, I am not an experienced Twitter user. The dramatic transition is not so much in content but rather in openness. Elon is confessing everything, probably in hopes that his company doesn?t get its corporate butt sued off. >?Twitter has always been this: good for in-the-moment breaking news and community investigations? Cool, let?s investigate, shall we? Let us start with why this Ray Epps (or whoever framed him) isn?t in prison, even though we have the bastard on multiple videos inciting a riot in which people died. >?Overall I am mostly just kind of shocked that there really is a belief out there that Twitter has changed much at all or that it even could change so much so quickly? The payroll has changed much and changed quickly. >?Everything is mostly the same and while new rules and management might be pushing it in a better direction, it's 100% placebo if you think you can see drastic changes already. More likely, you just never really knew what Twitter was like? OK good enough. I will accept that. Will, for some time now I have ridden a hobby horse about the use of machines in elections. Now I have two of them: first, replace the machines in elections with humans, and second, replace the humans with machines in Twitter. Reason for horse one: we don?t trust them. Reason for horse two: we don?t trust them. So we count votes with human volunteers and do moderation by open-source public-available software. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 00:08:22 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:08:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That IS the problem Adrian! The graphics of all this is terrible for the > FBI. We have the bastard (either Ray Epps or someone who looks like him) > on video inciting a riot with that ?inside the capitol inside the capitol? > business, clearly unambiguously inciting a riot in which one person was > shot and killed, another trampled, but that guy wasn?t arrested. > As the lawyers would say, "Objection: asked and answered". It has already been stated, on this thread earlier today, why he wasn't arrested. You replied to the post quoting the reason. In that same post it was pointed out that the fact that he wasn't arrested is the primary evidence people are using to claim he must be working for or with the FBI, or is otherwise under its protection - just like you are doing. You ignore this, which means your continued arguments on this topic are in bad faith. Do not attempt to pretend otherwise: it is you, Spike, who has lost all credibility on this topic. You used to be much better than this. I hope you can find your way back. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 00:10:34 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:10:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:27 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Can anyone recall how bad things were in this group on the topic of > "qualia" before canonizer came along? > I recall that we simply stopped discussing "qualia" as much. Whether those useless discussions moved to canonizer or simply stopped, I do not know. > Instead of all the bleating and tweeting, now everyone just points to > their current camp > No, the discussion just doesn't happen as much here. I don't recall many posts on this list where anyone but you points to a camp on Canonizer. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 00:15:16 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:15:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 3:21 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Twitter is exactly identical to what it was except now Elon is pushing his > cringe posts to my feed even though I don't follow him. > > NOTHING has changed, you are experiencing a delusion in that regard. > To be fair, a few things have changed...though not things that affect all users. For instance, moderation is down with a resulting measurable increase in personal attacks and false (fraudulent, in many cases) information posted, which has caused many advertisers to leave the site (affecting the type of ads people now see), and the "verified" check mark that some people used to rely on can now be simply purchased by just about anyone and is thus no longer useful for its old role. That said, you are mostly correct: not as much has changed as some people are claiming. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 00:42:10 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:42:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002601d90f54$e72dd3b0$b5897b10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?As the lawyers would say, "Objection: asked and answered"? Adrian, your ?answer? and the one the article suggested is that Epps wasn?t arrested because he contacted the FBI and? what? Apologized? For? a felony? Is that all a felon needs to do? What if other felons discover that defense? I didn?t buy it then, don?t now, nor do the people still asking the same question: how can a guy instigate a riot and get away by just calling up the FBI? There are a lot of things we still want to know, such as: how does that get him out of a charge of inciting a riot? He?s the only one we have on video inciting a riot. But no worries, I feel pretty confident the FBI will be asked pretty soon the same question they refused to answer before, but this time they may have fewer options. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 00:56:01 2022 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:56:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hi Adrian, This is just my obviously biased opinion, but people not participating (not pointing out their camps on Canonizes) is because they are making bad arguments that don't stand up to better argued positions. And their decrease in making their bad bleating and tweeting arguments, is evidence of low quality. John Clark, for example, never canonized his noisy opinion. And to me, that says a lot. To me this kind of stuff is a sign that people finally recognize that they aren't the expert they initially assumed they were, when faced with powerful emerging consensus arguments. While good arguments tend to earn other supporters and promoters they are proud of (more likely to be shared), bleating and tweeting tends to self censor, all in my opinion, a good thing. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 5:15 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:27 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Can anyone recall how bad things were in this group on the topic of >> "qualia" before canonizer came along? >> > > I recall that we simply stopped discussing "qualia" as much. Whether > those useless discussions moved to canonizer or simply stopped, I do not > know. > > >> Instead of all the bleating and tweeting, now everyone just points to >> their current camp >> > > No, the discussion just doesn't happen as much here. I don't recall many > posts on this list where anyone but you points to a camp on Canonizer. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 01:09:38 2022 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 18:09:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <025401d90f44$02e22c70$08a68550$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <025401d90f44$02e22c70$08a68550$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Dang, so sorry to hear. I'll have to reach out to him in person. In comparison to John Clark's noisy opinion, which wasn't canonized. Stathis did canonize his very brilliantly argued opinion , and continued to support what became a leading popular consensus camp supported by some brilliant people. However, functionalism camps continue to lose support compared to other camps. So even well argued, popular consensus camps will eventually start to fail compared to better argued positions Again, all in my not so humble, obviously biased opinion. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 3:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Brent Allsop via extropy-chat > > >?heck even Stathis is now on the verge of admitting the popular > consensus functionalists are wrong > , > right Stathis?... Brent > > > > Brent I fear Stathis left us in a huff because I was rejoicing in what > Elon Musk is doing now. Well, I am rejoicing, and I understand why: I > would be doing the same thing right now. Musk is shining the bright rays > of sunlight into a filthy and badly infected dark corner. I am cheering > for the photons. Team bacteria isn?t as happy as I am. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 01:14:37 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:14:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? >?As the lawyers would say, "Objection: asked and answered". Adrian much more directly to the point: the ?answer? presumes the FBI is not suffering from a horrific credibility problem. Considering it had two directors fired and a third looking pretty bad now, it is silly to pretend this doesn?t present yet another reason to doubt the FBI?s credibility. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 01:17:15 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:17:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <002601d90f54$e72dd3b0$b5897b10$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <002601d90f54$e72dd3b0$b5897b10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 4:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > >?As the lawyers would say, "Objection: asked and answered"? > > > > Adrian, your ?answer? and the one the article suggested is that Epps > wasn?t arrested because he contacted the FBI and? what? Apologized? For? > a felony? > Not just that. As posted, he was also attempting damage control at the event once he realized his mistake, and there is video evidence of this too. Reaching out to the police and offering assistance (not just an apology) instead of waiting to be arrested can sometimes get them to treat you more favorably, which can include not being arrested, especially when it enables more accurate justice, getting them information of use to them that they otherwise would not have. I've used this technique myself for lesser events, and it has worked. If you need retributive justice to be done, you can consider the labor of assisting the police to be the quid pro quo. For example: many years ago a pedestrian ran into my car - literally: she burst out from bushes on the side of the road too close for me to stop, though I did slam on the brakes and swerve to minimize damage. At first the cops thought it was a hit and run (the car was still there but they thought the driver had fled) and were preparing to charge accordingly, until I walked forth from the onlookers and introduced myself, stating (correctly) that I had thought the police wanted to investigate without being interrupted but I was willing to move the car (the specific thing they were wanting at that moment) and otherwise cooperate. In the end, the police report called it a no-fault true accident. I think my insurance didn't even have to pay the pedestrian's damages, just the repairs to my car. What if other felons discover that defense? > Then we live in the world that we are living in now - though, again, it takes more than a mere apology to avoid arrest entirely. It would seem that you are one of today's ten thousand: https://xkcd.com/1053/ . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 01:28:04 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:28:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 5:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian much more directly to the point: the ?answer? presumes the FBI is > not suffering from a horrific credibility problem. > No it doesn't. It relies primarily on the account of the person who wasn't arrested, and the video evidence he has pointed to. If you do not assume a priori that he is part of the FBI, then information that he provides does not come from the FBI, so the FBI's credibility is irrelevant to the credibility of his information. If you do assume a priori that he is part of the FBI, then your reasoning that he is part of the FBI is circular - and, in this fallacy, has no need to reference the FBI's credibility, nor any other facts or logic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 01:46:38 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:46:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <002601d90f54$e72dd3b0$b5897b10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006301d90f5d$e8940450$b9bc0cf0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 4:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?As the lawyers would say, "Objection: asked and answered"? Adrian, your ?answer? and the one the article suggested is that Epps wasn?t arrested because he contacted the FBI and? what? Apologized? For? a felony? >?Not just that. As posted, he was also attempting damage control at the event once he realized his mistake, and there is video evidence of this too? Hmmm, if he was attempting damage control at the police line, it would seem he would not have crossed the torn-down barricade but would have instead used that big voice to urge people: we must stay OUTSIDE THE CAPITOL, OUTSIDE THE CAPITOL, and while you are at it stay BEHIND THIS BARRICADE. But that isn?t what he did. He followed the rioters past that barricade, as seen on the video. No worries however, for the FBI can resurrect its credibility on this by handing over the recording of the Epps phone call, or perhaps just a verified transcript of it would be good enough, with the verification coming from congress or three or four judges. We really want to know how he walked back having been recorded on multiple occasions inciting a riot in which two died. That?s serious stuff. Adrian sorry to hear about your accident, but glad it didn?t spin out of control. I would call that a perfectly legitimate accident too. ? >?It would seem that you are one of today's ten thousand: https://xkcd.com/1053/ . Cool excellent I made xkcd! I am a huge fan of Randall Munroe. But I still haven?t found out, nor have today?s other 9,999 how this guy talked his way out of inciting a riot in which two died, nor how he talked his way out of crossing the torn down barricade in what looks like the second wave. That doesn?t look a bit like minimizing damage. All they need to do is release the audio recording of that phone call, or even a transcript, to slake our curiosity. It wouldn?t be hard and is not partisan, for the FBI has no political party. But again, no worries, for the FBI will likely be esplainin itself soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 02:09:49 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 18:09:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 5:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Adrian much more directly to the point: the ?answer? presumes the FBI is not suffering from a horrific credibility problem. >?If you do not assume a priori that he is part of the FBI, then ? >?If you do assume a priori that he is part of the FBI, then ?. We have the guy on video. Now the FBI must either arrest him or take ownership of what he did. Otherwise, it appears that? well I can?t even figure out what really. I become one of those legendary conspiracy theorists without an actual theory. I can tell you what it looks like. This brings up an interesting question however. There are people on this list outside of the US, such as? BillK. The Brits know the Americans can be an unruly lot: we threw the tea in the harbor, the FBI did nothing about it, on the flimsy excuse that there was no FBI at the time, and wouldn?t be for another 130 years. >From a British point of view, it must appear we have one guy who is recorded inciting riots, but they mysteriously arrested everyone else except him, including a bunch of people who crossed the barricade line but did not go inside the capitol inside the capitol. They were charged with trespassing, some of whom had already been in prison for some time. They didn?t incite others to riot, Ray Epps did that. Adrian it just doesn?t add up. Time will tell however. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 03:18:00 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 19:18:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 6:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? > > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 5:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Adrian much more directly to the point: the ?answer? presumes the FBI is > not suffering from a horrific credibility problem. > > > > >?If you do not assume a priori that he is part of the FBI, then ? > > > > >?If you do assume a priori that he is part of the FBI, then ?. > > > > > > We have the guy on video. Now the FBI must either arrest him or take > ownership of what he did. > False dichotomy. The FBI can do, and is doing, neither of those. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 04:54:16 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 20:54:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009f01d90f78$1f12d3c0$5d387b40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >>?We have the guy on video. Now the FBI must either arrest him or take ownership of what he did. >?False dichotomy. The FBI can do, and is doing, neither of those? They can?t arrest him? Why not? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 04:57:54 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 20:57:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <009f01d90f78$1f12d3c0$5d387b40$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> <009f01d90f78$1f12d3c0$5d387b40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 8:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > *>>?*We have the guy on video. Now the FBI must either arrest him or > take ownership of what he did. > > > > >?False dichotomy. The FBI can do, and is doing, neither of those? > > > > They can?t arrest him? Why not? > Don't play dumb. We aren't buying it. I meant that it is an option for the FBI to do neither of those. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 05:11:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 21:11:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> <009f01d90f78$1f12d3c0$5d387b40$ @rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b501d90f7a$86f30300$94d90900$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? >?False dichotomy. The FBI can do, and is doing, neither of those? They can?t arrest him? Why not? >?Don't play dumb. We aren't buying it. >?I meant that it is an option for the FBI to do neither of those? OK so what do you suppose that looks like if they do neither? That makes it look like he was one of theirs. This is yet another serious hit to their credibility after a really rough several years. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 05:27:16 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 21:27:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <00b501d90f7a$86f30300$94d90900$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> <00b501d90f7a$86f30300$94d90900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 9:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > >?I meant that it is an option for the FBI to do neither of those? > > > > OK so what do you suppose that looks like if they do neither? > It looks like they chose to take no action. Happens all the time, and a good enough reason has been provided for them to take no action that does not involve him being one of theirs. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You'd have a much stronger case arguing for corruption if you speculate on why Donald Trump remains free despite having been caught with still-classified materials (despite what he has been saying about his ability to declassify) that most people would long since have been arrested for had they had it without authorization and despite requests to return it for similar lengths of time. > That makes it look like he was one of theirs. > It does not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 05:48:20 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 21:48:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> <00b501d90f7a$86f30300$94d90900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001901d90f7f$aca30b90$05e922b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? >?Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? But we have the presence of evidence: the video of a guy inciting a riot in which people were killed, a felony, and his not being arrested, while others were arrested for trespassing, which is a misdemeanor. >?You'd have a much stronger case arguing for corruption if you speculate on why Donald Trump remains free? Presidents have absolute final authority on classification, for that is all in the executive branch. No one outranks POTUS on that, there is no one who needs to be asked permission to declassify, no one can countermand it, which is why Roosevelt was legally able to brief the commies on the atomic bomb before his VP Truman knew anything about it. But that video isn?t about Trump, it is about the FBI and a guy we caught inciting a riot in which people died. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 06:16:22 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 22:16:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <001901d90f7f$aca30b90$05e922b0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> <00b501d90f7a$86f30300$94d90900$@rainier66.com> <001901d90f7f$aca30b90$05e922b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 9:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >?Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? > > > > But we have the presence of evidence: the video of a guy inciting a riot > in which people were killed, a felony, and his not being arrested, while > others were arrested for trespassing, which is a misdemeanor. > And we also have evidence of what else he did which explains why he was not arrested, as discussed earlier in this thread. Almost everyone reading this knows it, so there's no use citing just the evidence of incitement while ignoring the rest. > >?You'd have a much stronger case arguing for corruption if you speculate > on why Donald Trump remains free? > > > > Presidents have absolute final authority on classification > Which he did not exercise. Exercising that authority involves marking the documents declassified, which was not done; just thinking "declassified" does not make them legally declassified. Those documents were still classified, regardless of whether he could have declassified them. Also he was no longer President at the time (they weren't declassified while he was President, and once he wasn't he could not retroactively declare them declassified), also there are some things in the collection he had that even the President is not the absolute (sole) final authority on classification of, also the charges on the FBI's warrant to seize the documents did not rely on the documents being classified, and other caveats you've probably heard. So with all of that, why does Trump remain free? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 13:30:46 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 05:30:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d90f01$949d48e0$bdd7daa0$@rainier66.com> <00c801d90f04$de1cde60$9a569b20$@rainier66.com> <015901d90f0d$ed9644e0$c8c2cea0$@rainier66.com> <01db01d90f30$1480c310$3d824930$@rainier66.com> <021f01d90f40$9f580650$de0812f0$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90f59$6ff51920$4fdf4b60$@rainier66.com> <007901d90f61$25ef89c0$71ce9d40$@rainier66.com> <00b501d90f7a$86f30300$94d90900$ @rainier66.com> <001901d90f7f$aca30b90$05e922b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002c01d90fc0$46afe3d0$d40fab70$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 9:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? >?So with all of that, why does Trump remain free? Because the FBI burned its credibility to the ground in the interest of partisan politics and grabbing power. They have done nothing in the meantime but stir the ashes. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Dec 14 14:20:55 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 06:20:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> Quoting Dave Sill: > We interrupt this conspiracy theory discussion for some interesting > science news. > > -Dave Right? You would think that people would be dancing in the streets, knowing that their children wouldn't have to fight to the death over the last barrel of oil, eat each other, or hold hands singing Kumbaya while the lights went out forever. This is huge. This gets Malthus off of our backs for the foreseeable future and moves us much closer to becoming a space-faring type I civilization. I literally cried when I heard about this. Stuart LaForge > https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition > > National Ignition Facility achieves fusion ignition > > [Share to > Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition&title=National%20Ignition%20Facility%20achieves%20fusion%20ignition)[Share to Twitter](https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=National%20Ignition%20Facility%20achieves%20fusion%20ignition+https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition)[Share to Linkedin](https://www.linkedin.com/sharing/share-offsite/?url=https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition)[Share to > Email](mailto:?subject=National%20Ignition%20Facility%20achieves%20fusion%20ignition&body=https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition) > From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 15:00:47 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 07:00:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough Quoting Dave Sill: > We interrupt this conspiracy theory discussion for some interesting > science news. > > -Dave Right? You would think that people would be dancing in the streets, knowing that their children wouldn't have to fight to the death over the last barrel of oil, eat each other, or hold hands singing Kumbaya while the lights went out forever. This is huge. This gets Malthus off of our backs for the foreseeable future and moves us much closer to becoming a space-faring type I civilization. I literally cried when I heard about this. Stuart LaForge Stuart don't literally cry yet. Reaching fusion breakeven is cool, but that in itself is insufficient to indicate our children will not fight to the death over the last lump of coal, over which to grill their neighbor. It is progress, but before you strike up the band, consider the mechanism for recovering the energy is in that fast neutron, and what potential that process has for improvement. I get a good feeling that reaching breakeven is an indication that humanity might be within a few decades of making fusion a practical energy source, but it isn't entirely clear that will be in time to prevent the neighborhood barbecue scenario. Let's hope we can make fusion pay before then. Breakeven will likely attract funding for more research however. If a solution exists, we will find it. Getting more people into the field is a good thing, because nuclear physics requires the study of stuff which is real. Science and math rule that world. So if there is promise there, it helps drain the silly and foolish stuff that too many students squander their college years studying and fill the seats in the physics and engineering classrooms, where they teach reality. Maintain hope Stuart: dynamic optimism in our times is perhaps best expressed by studying physics. spike From snapbag at proton.me Wed Dec 14 16:10:54 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:10:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 10:00 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Stuart don't literally cry yet. Reaching fusion breakeven is cool, but that > in itself is insufficient to indicate our children will not fight to the > death over the last lump of coal, over which to grill their neighbor. This result means that controlled fusion has moved from theoretically possible to achieved. Turning it from doable to practical is the next step. -Dave From snapbag at proton.me Wed Dec 14 16:26:28 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:26:28 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This article explains it well: American scientists have announced what they have called a major breakthrough in a long-elusive goal of creating energy from nuclear fusion. The U.S. Department of Energy said on Dec. 13, 2022, that for the first time ? and after several decades of trying ? scientists have managed to get more energy out of the process than they had to put in. But just how significant is the development? And how far off is the long-sought dream of fusion providing abundant, clean energy? Carolyn Kuranz, an associate professor of nuclear engineering at the University of Michigan who has worked at the facility that just broke the fusion record, helps explain this new result. What happened in the fusion chamber? Fusion is a nuclear reaction that combines two atoms to create one or more new atoms with slightly less total mass. The difference in mass is released as energy, as described by Einstein?s famous equation, E = mc2 , where energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. Since the speed of light is enormous, converting just a tiny amount of mass into energy ? like what happens in fusion ? produces a similarly enormous amount of energy. Researchers at the U.S. Government?s National Ignition Facility in California have demonstrated, for the first time, what is known as ?fusion ignition.? Ignition is when a fusion reaction produces more energy than is being put into the reaction from an outside source and becomes self-sustaining. The fuel is held in a tiny canister designed to keep the reaction as free from contaminants as possible. U.S. Department of Energy/Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory The technique used at the National Ignition Facility involved shooting 192 lasers at a 0.04 inch (1 mm) pellet of fuel made of deuterium and tritium ? two versions of the element hydrogen with extra neutrons ? placed in a gold canister. When the lasers hit the canister, they produce X-rays that heat and compress the fuel pellet to about 20 times the density of lead and to more than 5 million degrees Fahrenheit (3 million Celsius) ? about 100 times hotter than the surface of the Sun. If you can maintain these conditions for a long enough time, the fuel will fuse and release energy. The fuel and canister get vaporized within a few billionths of a second during the experiment. Researchers then hope their equipment survived the heat and accurately measured the energy released by the fusion reaction. So what did they accomplish? To assess the success of a fusion experiment, physicists look at the ratio between the energy released from the process of fusion and the amount of energy within the lasers. This ratio is called gain. Anything above a gain of 1 means that the fusion process released more energy than the lasers delivered. On Dec. 5, 2022, the National Ignition Facility shot a pellet of fuel with 2 million joules of laser energy ? about the amount of power it takes to run a hair dryer for 15 minutes ? all contained within a few billionths of a second. This triggered a fusion reaction that released 3 million joules. That is a gain of about 1.5, smashing the previous record of a gain of 0.7 achieved by the facility in August 2021. How big a deal is this result? Fusion energy has been the ?holy grail? of energy production for nearly half a century. While a gain of 1.5 is, I believe, a truly historic scientific breakthrough, there is still a long way to go before fusion is a viable energy source. While the laser energy of 2 million joules was less than the fusion yield of 3 million joules, it took the facility nearly 300 million joules to produce the lasers used in this experiment. This result has shown that fusion ignition is possible, but it will take a lot of work to improve the efficiency to the point where fusion can provide a net positive energy return when taking into consideration the entire end-to-end system, not just a single interaction between the lasers and the fuel. What needs to be improved? There are a number of pieces of the fusion puzzle that scientists have been steadily improving for decades to produce this result, and further work can make this process more efficient. First, lasers were only invented in 1960. When the U.S. government completed construction of the National Ignition Facility in 2009, it was the most powerful laser facility in the world, able to deliver 1 million joules of energy to a target. The 2 million joules it produces today is 50 times more energetic than the next most powerful laser on Earth. More powerful lasers and less energy-intensive ways to produce those powerful lasers could greatly improve the overall efficiency of the system. Fusion conditions are very challenging to sustain, and any small imperfection in the capsule or fuel can increase the energy requirement and decrease efficiency. Scientists have made a lot of progress to more efficiently transfer energy from the laser to the canister and the X-ray radiation from the canister to the fuel capsule, but currently only about 10% to 30% of the total laser energy is transferred to the canister and to the fuel. Finally, while one part of the fuel, deuterium, is naturally abundant in sea water, tritium is much rarer. Fusion itself actually produces tritium, so researchers are hoping to develop ways of harvesting this tritium directly. In the meantime, there are other methods available to produce the needed fuel. These and other scientific, technological and engineering hurdles will need to be overcome before fusion will produce electricity for your home. Work will also need to be done to bring the cost of a fusion power plant well down from the US$3.5 billion of the National Ignition Facility. These steps will require significant investment from both the federal government and private industry. It?s worth noting that there is a global race around fusion, with many other labs around the world pursuing different techniques. But with the new result from the National Ignition Facility, the world has, for the first time, seen evidence that the dream of fusion is achievable. https://theconversation.com/why-fusion-ignition-is-being-hailed-as-a-major-breakthrough-in-fusion-a-nuclear-physicist-explains-196475 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 16:36:35 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 08:36:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c801d90fda$3bd4cfb0$b37e6f10$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat ... >...This result means that controlled fusion has moved from theoretically possible to achieved. Turning it from doable to practical is the next step. -Dave _______________________________________________ Ja, it is a step. I looked at a lot of the popular press coverage on it, but few make it clear that the gain of 1 means they recovered enough energy to equal the energy of the ignition laser. Nearly all the articles will make a comment such as "...practical nuclear fusion power plants are decades away..." but not really explain the energy expended in extracting the tritium and so forth. But ja, it is a step, and I look toward a new wave of nuclear engineering students being spawned, which is a good thing even if they never set foot in a nuclear power plant. Nuclear engineers are good engineers: it is an exacting science. spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 17:11:40 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:11:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e901d90fdf$2294efd0$67becf70$@rainier66.com> Uh oh, he?s in big trouble now. From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough This article explains it well: American scientists have announced what they have called a major breakthrough in a long-elusive goal of creating energy from nuclear fusion?. https://theconversation.com/why-fusion-ignition-is-being-hailed-as-a-major-breakthrough-in-fusion-a-nuclear-physicist-explains-196475 Thx for the article Dave. I agree: perhaps the biggest achievement in making gain 1 is to show it can be done. Do allow me to offer a bit of perspective from the POV of an engineer. We all know what was the big sexy field to study in the 1960s: aerospace. Moon rockets and let?s go to Mars and so on. We went to the moon six times, then suddenly? nothing happened. No money to be made there, no weapons to be created there, no Mars, no funding, no future in spaceships. OK so now? where were all those engineering graduates to go next for a sexy master?s degree? (Isn?t it kinda surprising they haven?t come up with an alternate name for that yet?) Fortunately? in 1974, the Saudis came to the rescue with the OPEC oil embargo. Most of the world at the time (including me) realized that one way or another we needed to get going on nuclear energy, fission until fusion was ready. I was in high school at the time, but plenty of mechanical and electrical engineering grads went into nuke engineering for grad school. By about 1978 waves of these guys were graduating with master?s degrees, which resulted in a wave of? nothing. They came but we didn?t build it. Some of our grads went to France, most went into other fields, such as? aerospace. Why? Nuclear engineering and space stuff are two areas of engineering which are unforgiving of small errors. Tolerances are very tight, discipline is the way, careful calculation of everything is required. When the nuclear engineering programs were cranking up, there was a great deal of demand for admissions. The students who made it into the program had this in common: they didn?t suck. Companies outside of the nuke biz suddenly had a pool of highly qualified candidates, pre-selected from a larger pool, a filtered refined group. They hired the hell outta those guys. I know a lot about this for I worked for and with a number of such guys, who uniformly did not suck. Every one of them I ever knew in the space biz, which is to say many, were great engineers with all the characteristics the space biz really needs. With that degree, they could go off into medical school if they wanted, or get a job in the finance industry and pull of stuff like the 2008 Wall Street crash, whatever they wanted to do. Well, OK then. Creating nuclear engineers is a value-added function for society, even if they never actually get to build nukes. We get a pool of guys who can succeed at pretty much anything, because they studied something real. They could apply mathematical discipline and rigor to areas which desperately need it. Last point: half a century ago we thought we were running out of oil and were in a race to find alternatives. The difference now is that we really are in a race to find alternatives. This is not to say hydrocarbon combustion is going away anytime soon, for it isn?t. But we are getting more serious about finding alternatives rather than fighting over the last lump of coal. If you look at all available choices, it will be nuclear. We know fusion is back there somewhere, but currently fission is in the lead and pulling away. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9432 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john at ziaspace.com Wed Dec 14 17:28:56 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:28:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > Is there an active block feature? You are right, I am not an > experienced Twitter user. The dramatic transition is not so much in > content but rather in openness. Elon is confessing everything, probably > in hopes that his company doesn???t get its corporate butt sued off. Your optimism is refreshing, but unfortunately it's misplaced. Elon gets butthurt at the slightest things. He reacts in ways that show he has no understanding of others and no empathy. He does not see other humans as in any way equals to himself. But if we ignore the fact that he's simply a shitty person and separately evaluate the idea that Twitter is somehow more open, is it? No. Flatly, no. People have had more account suspensions without explanations, all sorts of content has been made unavailable, and there are too many examples to simply say it's a "coincidence" or unintentional. For instance: https://twitter.com/jxcksweeney/status/1603028610209779712 Scroll down just a wee bit, and you'll see a screenshot of Elon's own tweet contradicting the actions mentioned in that tweet. Also note his rather childish assertion that it's "a direct personal safety risk", which illustrates his complete inability to see other humans as equals in any way (for those without imaginations, it's because he says that people harassing other people is "protected" and concerned people should contact the police, but that's another discussion). Or see my own post about how Twitter is screwing around with search terms: https://zia.io/notice/AQVFiPelEvKzkx1eXw https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1601979853603237888 > Cool, let???s investigate, shall we? Let us start with why this Ray > Epps (or whoever framed him) isn???t in prison, even though we have the > bastard on multiple videos inciting a riot in which people died. Selective prosecution has always been an issue, as is the fact that certain investigations literally take years. But that's another discussion. >> ???Overall I am mostly just kind of shocked that there really is a >> belief out there that Twitter has changed much at all or that it even >> could change so much so quickly??? > > The payroll has changed much and changed quickly. That has nothing to do with the content aside from the negative effects of laying off whole moderation teams. But if you're asserting that the moderation teams were the issue that's being fixed, you should say that. > Will, for some time now I have ridden a hobby horse about the use of > machines in elections. Now I have two of them: first, replace the > machines in elections with humans, and second, replace the humans with > machines in Twitter. This is why I had to reply, when I don't respond to so many other messages: If you think Twitter, particularly led by Elon Musk, should be involved in elections, I'd have to say you've drank the Flavor Aid. > So we count votes with human volunteers and do moderation by open-source > public-available software. How is that in any way related to "machines in Twitter"? Do you think Twitter is open? Computers are wonderfully complex, and that leads to a glaring problem when considering how they could be used to keep an election honest - complexity makes hiding nefariousness easy. Take, for instance, Ken Thompson's legendary writeup, "Reflections on Trusting Trust": https://www.klos.com/~john/trust/ The point is that we can't, and shouldn't, trust that which we can't directly test for ourselves, whether or not we actually do test ourselves. The option should always be there, and it clearly isn't in any way with anything at Twitter. A computerized voting system that is above reproach is possible, but only if everyone has full access to every part of it, and all the data that goes in to it. This would be great for another discussion, but in essence, if every part of it is broken down to where each piece could be implemented on a Commodore 64 in BASIC in ways that people with high school level math skills could understand, then hundreds of ways of doing each step would be made, and if none are in disagreement, it'd be next to impossible to manipulate those parts. Do the same with putting the parts together, and, well, you get the idea. None of us have access to Twitter's servers. Even if they published the source code for everything, we still couldn't trust their servers. They (Twitter) could be running code that's different from what they published. They could manipulate data in real time. Twitter could be running their software under hypervisors that are used to manipulate data in flight, and any of a number of groups could be manipulating that - Twitter employees, datacenter employees, the NSA... The point is we can't, and shouldn't, ever trust the output of code that we can't run ourselves, or rewrite ourselves, on our own hardware. Twitter will never, ever be that. John From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 17:37:11 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:37:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001601d90fe2$b336f850$19a4e8f0$@rainier66.com> John your message was cut off. spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, 14 December, 2022 9:29 AM To: spike jones via extropy-chat Cc: John Klos Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? > Is there an active block feature? You are right, I am not an > experienced Twitter user. The dramatic transition is not so much in > content but rather in openness. Elon is confessing everything, > probably in hopes that his company doesnb From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 17:47:13 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:47:13 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: <00e901d90fdf$2294efd0$67becf70$@rainier66.com> References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> <00e901d90fdf$2294efd0$67becf70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 at 17:14, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Last point: half a century ago we thought we were running out of oil and were in a race to find alternatives. The difference now is that we really are in a race to find alternatives. This is not to say hydrocarbon combustion is going away anytime soon, for it isn?t. But we are getting more serious about finding alternatives rather than fighting over the last lump of coal. If you look at all available choices, it will be nuclear. We know fusion is back there somewhere, but currently fission is in the lead and pulling away. > > spike > _______________________________________________ But remember, we know how to build fission reactor plants and it still takes 10+ years, allowing for time and cost overruns. We don't know how to build fusion reactor plants at all. So it will be decades until they arrive. One estimate I read said to assume the 2050s before a working fusion reactor plant is built and connected to the grid. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 17:51:39 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:51:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] im one of the 10k Message-ID: <001701d90fe4$b85ea1f0$291be5d0$@rainier66.com> Yesterday I was one of Randall Munroe's 10k who didn't know something everyone else knew (and I still don't know that) but today I find out something perhaps everyone else already knew: in Norway a person can get jail time for words? It never occurred to me that Norway didn't have freedom of speech laws similar to the USA. I hear Norwegian Tonje Gjevjon is in trouble. Was anyone else here aware of that? Do I get to score in the 10k zone twice in the same week? This brings up new questions regarding Twitter. What if. someone tweets something illegal in Norway. Is Elon Musk a co-defendant now? What if she tweets it while on vacation in the states, where it is legal? And regarding that whole refugee business, could not any Norwegian just take trip to the states, tweet something illegal in Norway, then legitimately claim refugee status? What about the other outfits in Europe, such as. like. "France" and "Australia." Do they have free speech? And why can't every nation just adopt the US Bill of Rights and be done with it? All of this stands as evidence that technology is fast but law is slow. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 17:51:45 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:51:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <001601d90fe2$b336f850$19a4e8f0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <001601d90fe2$b336f850$19a4e8f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 at 17:39, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > John your message was cut off. > > spike > Not here. Received OK here. BillK From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 17:57:38 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 12:57:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> <00e901d90fdf$2294efd0$67becf70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The issue of igniting a fuel pellet compared to making an actual engine reminds me of attempts to make a black powder engine. Sure, it's got a lot of bang but that's not enough to make a cycle like steam power or 2&4 stroke engines. I wonder if we can or should be figuring out how to improve efficiency of our local working fusion engine: the sun. It's currently radiating in all direction. Seems kinda wasteful. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Wed Dec 14 17:58:36 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 17:58:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <001601d90fe2$b336f850$19a4e8f0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <001601d90fe2$b336f850$19a4e8f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > John your message was cut off. Is anyone else seeing this? I'm seeing the full text from the message that was sent from the list server. Repasted here, but with all of the silly stylized quotes and apostrophes replaced, which may be why the email system considers it "charset: X-UNKNOWN": > Is there an active block feature? You are right, I am not an > experienced Twitter user. The dramatic transition is not so much in > content but rather in openness. Elon is confessing everything, probably > in hopes that his company doesn't get its corporate butt sued off. Your optimism is refreshing, but unfortunately it's misplaced. Elon gets butthurt at the slightest things. He reacts in ways that show he has no understanding of others and no empathy. He does not see other humans as in any way equals to himself. But if we ignore the fact that he's simply a shitty person and separately evaluate the idea that Twitter is somehow more open, is it? No. Flatly, no. People have had more account suspensions without explanations, all sorts of content has been made unavailable, and there are too many examples to simply say it's a "coincidence" or unintentional. For instance: https://twitter.com/jxcksweeney/status/1603028610209779712 Scroll down just a wee bit, and you'll see a screenshot of Elon's own tweet contradicting the actions mentioned in that tweet. Also note his rather childish assertion that it's "a direct personal safety risk", which illustrates his complete inability to see other humans as equals in any way (for those without imaginations, it's because he says that people harassing other people is "protected" and concerned people should contact the police, but that's another discussion). Or see my own post about how Twitter is screwing around with search terms: https://zia.io/notice/AQVFiPelEvKzkx1eXw https://twitter.com/AnachronistJohn/status/1601979853603237888 > Cool, let's investigate, shall we? Let us start with why this Ray Epps > (or whoever framed him) isn't in prison, even though we have the bastard > on multiple videos inciting a riot in which people died. Selective prosecution has always been an issue, as is the fact that certain investigations literally take years. But that's another discussion. > > Overall I am mostly just kind of shocked that there really is a belief > > out there that Twitter has changed much at all or that it even could > > change so much so quickly? > > The payroll has changed much and changed quickly. That has nothing to do with the content aside from the negative effects of laying off whole moderation teams. But if you're asserting that the moderation teams were the issue that's being fixed, you should say that. > Will, for some time now I have ridden a hobby horse about the use of > machines in elections. Now I have two of them: first, replace the > machines in elections with humans, and second, replace the humans with > machines in Twitter. This is why I had to reply, when I don't respond to so many other messages: If you think Twitter, particularly led by Elon Musk, should be involved in elections, I'd have to say you've drank the Flavor Aid. > So we count votes with human volunteers and do moderation by open-source > public-available software. How is that in any way related to "machines in Twitter"? Do you think Twitter is open? Computers are wonderfully complex, and that leads to a glaring problem when considering how they could be used to keep an election honest - complexity makes hiding nefariousness easy. Take, for instance, Ken Thompson's legendary writeup, "Reflections on Trusting Trust": https://www.klos.com/~john/trust/ The point is that we can't, and shouldn't, trust that which we can't directly test for ourselves, whether or not we actually do test ourselves. The option should always be there, and it clearly isn't in any way with anything at Twitter. A computerized voting system that is above reproach is possible, but only if everyone has full access to every part of it, and all the data that goes in to it. This would be great for another discussion, but in essence, if every part of it is broken down to where each piece could be implemented on a Commodore 64 in BASIC in ways that people with high school level math skills could understand, then hundreds of ways of doing each step would be made, and if none are in disagreement, it'd be next to impossible to manipulate those parts. Do the same with putting the parts together, and, well, you get the idea. None of us have access to Twitter's servers. Even if they published the source code for everything, we still couldn't trust their servers. They (Twitter) could be running code that's different from what they published. They could manipulate data in real time. Twitter could be running their software under hypervisors that are used to manipulate data in flight, and any of a number of groups could be manipulating that - Twitter employees, datacenter employees, the NSA... The point is we can't, and shouldn't, ever trust the output of code that we can't run ourselves, or rewrite ourselves, on our own hardware. Twitter will never, ever be that. John From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 18:02:01 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 10:02:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <001601d90fe2$b336f850$19a4e8f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 10:00 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 at 17:39, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > John your message was cut off. > > Not here. Received OK here. > Same. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 18:18:55 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:18:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] im one of the 10k In-Reply-To: <001701d90fe4$b85ea1f0$291be5d0$@rainier66.com> References: <001701d90fe4$b85ea1f0$291be5d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Even in the UK you can get jailed for words. A bunch of people recently were arrested for public disturbance just for quietly holding up signs that said "not my king" and the like. On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 12:54 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Yesterday I was one of Randall Munroe?s 10k who didn?t know something > everyone else knew (and I still don?t know that) but today I find out > something perhaps everyone else already knew: in Norway a person can get > jail time for words? It never occurred to me that Norway didn?t have > freedom of speech laws similar to the USA. I hear Norwegian Tonje Gjevjon > is in trouble. > > > > Was anyone else here aware of that? Do I get to score in the 10k zone > twice in the same week? > > > > This brings up new questions regarding Twitter. What if? someone tweets > something illegal in Norway. Is Elon Musk a co-defendant now? What if she > tweets it while on vacation in the states, where it is legal? And > regarding that whole refugee business, could not any Norwegian just take > trip to the states, tweet something illegal in Norway, then legitimately > claim refugee status? What about the other outfits in Europe, such as? > like? ?France? and ?Australia.? Do they have free speech? And why can?t > every nation just adopt the US Bill of Rights and be done with it? > > > > All of this stands as evidence that technology is fast but law is slow. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 19:05:15 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 11:05:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <001601d90fe2$b336f850$19a4e8f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005101d90fef$00c6a8c0$0253fa40$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: John Klos ... >>... Will, for some time now I have ridden a hobby horse about the use of > machines in elections. Now I have two of them: first, replace the > machines in elections with humans, and second, replace the humans with > machines in Twitter. >...If you think Twitter, particularly led by Elon Musk, should be involved in elections, I'd have to say you've drank the Flavor Aid... John I didn't state that clearly. I didn't mean Twitter would have anything to do with elections. Two completely different suggestions: get the humans mostly out of the loop in Twitter, get the machines completely out of the loop in elections. >...Elon gets butthurt at the slightest things. He reacts in ways that show he has no understanding of others and no empathy. He does not see other humans as in any way equals to himself... Aspergers. Since it is a named condition for which psychologist have assured us is a condition with which some are born, it is highly improper to criticize the patient. He can't stop having Aspergers. But he can save Twitter, which was only a few minutes from bankruptcy when he stepped in. I heard they weren't even paying the rent. spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 19:27:43 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 11:27:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] im one of the 10k In-Reply-To: References: <001701d90fe4$b85ea1f0$291be5d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005c01d90ff2$23fb6300$6bf22900$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] im one of the 10k >?Even in the UK you can get jailed for words. A bunch of people recently were arrested for public disturbance just for quietly holding up signs that said "not my king" and the like? Will Will, what if? the Brits held up those signs but with a photo of various actual literal kings: Rodney, Martin Luther, that guy with the Nobel prizes, that species of Alaskan salmon, Billie Jean, Elvis Presley and so on. That would be a hoot. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 19:44:41 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:44:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] im one of the 10k In-Reply-To: <005c01d90ff2$23fb6300$6bf22900$@rainier66.com> References: <001701d90fe4$b85ea1f0$291be5d0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d90ff2$23fb6300$6bf22900$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I wonder if the Brits just rounded up those guys then let them go. If not, it's really scary that a non-obscene sign, with no weapons, etc. can get you arrested. bill w On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 1:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] im one of the 10k > > > > >?Even in the UK you can get jailed for words. A bunch of people recently > were arrested for public disturbance just for quietly holding up signs that > said "not my king" and the like? Will > > > > Will, what if? the Brits held up those signs but with a photo of various > actual literal kings: Rodney, Martin Luther, that guy with the Nobel > prizes, that species of Alaskan salmon, Billie Jean, Elvis Presley and so > on. That would be a hoot. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 19:53:48 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 11:53:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> ? Consider the trend our society (and the world) has been experiencing (perpetrating?) for a long time: toward a kind of universal subjectivity, where one may define one?s own reality. Only two decades ago, that was a joke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQ Recall that Jack Nicholson attempted that defense in One Flew Over the Cucoo?s Nest. Instead of being sent to prison with a bunch of murderous bastards, he was sent to an institution, thinly disguised as a hospital, where he was with a bunch of crazy murderous bastards. Plus one really mean nurse. With that, consider that comment I made earlier to John Kloz about how we refrain from criticism of Musk because of? Aspergers, which makes his ruthlessness an involuntary feature of his condition rather than a commentary on his character. How does one prove someone else isn?t one of those borderline versions of?what? Mentally nonmainstream? Impossible. But I keep going back to the original question: what could we have done differently? Jack Dorsey could be the most sensitive nicest guy on the planet, but he was in a powerdive which was easily recognized by the most casual of observers. The stockholders bailed at the first opportunity, which Musk provided. Musk is a business guy: he knew the revenue must somehow meet payroll plus expenses, and it isn?t clear how he could make revenue go up. Ja? So what the hell else could he do besides go down that payroll list with a roaring chainsaw? Anyone? What could he have done any different? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Wed Dec 14 20:03:32 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 20:03:32 +0000 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> References: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 2:53 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > But I keep going back to the original question: what could we have done differently? I don't understand your infatuation with Musk. What will it take to move on from this question? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 20:12:13 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 12:12:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b801d90ff8$5b235ad0$116a1070$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? On Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 2:53 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: But I keep going back to the original question: what could we have done differently? I don't understand your infatuation with Musk. What will it take to move on from this question? -Dave Move on? Dave this is the biggest story in a decade from the point of view of impact to society and the future. What we have shown is that Musk, for all the criticism he has taken, did exactly the right thing to save Twitter. Regarding my own infatuation with him: the man made my fortune, plus the fortunes of many around here. They bought stock in Tesla, that resulted in many of my own neighbors becoming millionaires, which resulted in the real estate value 2.3 miles from the main engineering building soar. I love that guy! Rather I love the money he made me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 20:21:22 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 15:21:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> References: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If you wanna talk about Kesey you need to take some damn psychedelics On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:54 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > ? > > > > Consider the trend our society (and the world) has been experiencing > (perpetrating?) for a long time: toward a kind of universal subjectivity, > where one may define one?s own reality. > > > > Only two decades ago, that was a joke: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQ > > > > Recall that Jack Nicholson attempted that defense in One Flew Over the > Cucoo?s Nest. Instead of being sent to prison with a bunch of murderous > bastards, he was sent to an institution, thinly disguised as a hospital, > where he was with a bunch of crazy murderous bastards. Plus one really > mean nurse. > > > > With that, consider that comment I made earlier to John Kloz about how we > refrain from criticism of Musk because of? Aspergers, which makes his > ruthlessness an involuntary feature of his condition rather than a > commentary on his character. How does one prove someone else isn?t one of > those borderline versions of?what? Mentally nonmainstream? Impossible. > > > > But I keep going back to the original question: what could we have done > differently? Jack Dorsey could be the most sensitive nicest guy on the > planet, but he was in a powerdive which was easily recognized by the most > casual of observers. The stockholders bailed at the first opportunity, > which Musk provided. Musk is a business guy: he knew the revenue must > somehow meet payroll plus expenses, and it isn?t clear how he could make > revenue go up. Ja? So what the hell else could he do besides go down that > payroll list with a roaring chainsaw? Anyone? What could he have done any > different? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 21:01:15 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 15:01:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> References: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Cuckoo's Nest - Jack's character was not mentally ill at all. He was a psychopath, very clearly. bill w On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 1:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > ? > > > > Consider the trend our society (and the world) has been experiencing > (perpetrating?) for a long time: toward a kind of universal subjectivity, > where one may define one?s own reality. > > > > Only two decades ago, that was a joke: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQ > > > > Recall that Jack Nicholson attempted that defense in One Flew Over the > Cucoo?s Nest. Instead of being sent to prison with a bunch of murderous > bastards, he was sent to an institution, thinly disguised as a hospital, > where he was with a bunch of crazy murderous bastards. Plus one really > mean nurse. > > > > With that, consider that comment I made earlier to John Kloz about how we > refrain from criticism of Musk because of? Aspergers, which makes his > ruthlessness an involuntary feature of his condition rather than a > commentary on his character. How does one prove someone else isn?t one of > those borderline versions of?what? Mentally nonmainstream? Impossible. > > > > But I keep going back to the original question: what could we have done > differently? Jack Dorsey could be the most sensitive nicest guy on the > planet, but he was in a powerdive which was easily recognized by the most > casual of observers. The stockholders bailed at the first opportunity, > which Musk provided. Musk is a business guy: he knew the revenue must > somehow meet payroll plus expenses, and it isn?t clear how he could make > revenue go up. Ja? So what the hell else could he do besides go down that > payroll list with a roaring chainsaw? Anyone? What could he have done any > different? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 21:05:46 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:05:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011301d90fff$d6aa6a70$83ff3f50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? >?If you wanna talk about Kesey you need to take some damn psychedelics? Eh, Will I shall leave that to others, thanks. It is already damn psychedelic in here within my mind without damn psychedelics or any other chemical assistance. I sometimes wonder if I were to eat these psychedelics, would I become? normal? The mind boggles. But my comment was more about Jack Nicholson, for he was such an astonishing talent at playing crazy bastards. Consider his biggest roles: a murderous crazy in The Shining, a recovering ?crazy fuck? in As Good As It Gets, a criminal crazy in Batman, a kinda crazy in Easy Rider, an ambiguously crazy criminal in One Flew Over the Cucoo?s Nest. With those major roles, one gets the feeling that Jack is really good at playing a crazy, so? we dang sure hope all that is just good acting and he isn?t really that way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 21:18:31 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:18:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <007201d90ff5$c8c3ce60$5a4b6b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013901d91001$9e7bde70$db739b50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? >?Cuckoo's Nest - Jack's character was not mentally ill at all. He was a psychopath, very clearly. bill w OK well that qualifies by my definition. It almost seems like Jack was misinformed into playing crazy to try to get out of prison, not realizing the alternative. In any case, I will report my own experience: I used to be a megalomaniac. Couldn?t afford a psychologist, so I checked out a book from the library, How To Not Be Crazy, read it, did what it suggested. It worked! I improved by six orders of magnitude. A factor of a million I improved! I discovered I was no longer a megalomaniac. Now I am just a regular maniac. So? if you will excuse me I need to return this book and get a different one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Wed Dec 14 21:30:13 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 21:30:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <005101d90fef$00c6a8c0$0253fa40$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <001601d90fe2$b336f850$19a4e8f0$@rainier66.com> <005101d90fef$00c6a8c0$0253fa40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > ...If you think Twitter, particularly led by Elon Musk, should be > > involved in elections, I'd have to say you've drank the Flavor Aid... > > John I didn't state that clearly. I didn't mean Twitter would have anything > to do with elections. Two completely different suggestions: get the humans > mostly out of the loop in Twitter, get the machines completely out of the > loop in elections. I see. Yes, Twitter being involved in any way with elections would just be horrible. > > ...Elon gets butthurt at the slightest things. He reacts in ways that > > show he has no understanding of others and no empathy. He does not see > > other humans as in any way equals to himself... > > Aspergers. Since it is a named condition for which psychologist have > assured us is a condition with which some are born, it is highly improper to > criticize the patient. He can't stop having Aspergers. But he can save > Twitter, which was only a few minutes from bankruptcy when he stepped in. I > heard they weren't even paying the rent. I don't agree with that at all. If he's aware of his condition, yet he doesn't care in the least to remove himself from situations where his condition would cause him to mis-evaluate and make woefully poor decisions, that's not right. You can't choose to be an asshole, then just blame it on Asperger's. He chooses to involve himself with stuff like human resources. And while you believe Twitter couldn't pay its rent, which isn't true, he's doing that with SpaceX, too, by expecting people to give up their personal lives or be fired. BTW - you might want to examine where you get your pro-Elon information, Spike. The idea that Twitter hasn't paid their rent had literally nothing to do with them running out of money or being near bankrupt, which is what Elon has suggested. It's because Elon stopped paying it! https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/13/twitter-reportedly-hasnt-paid-rent-on-its-office-spaces-for-weeks.html I agree the companies with which he's involved are doing good things, but when they get to the point where profit becomes more important than progress, one needs to step back. Someone who has no capacity for empathy, shouldn't be involved in the decisionmaking related to, for instance, self-driving cars that end up killing people. John From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 14 22:12:42 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:12:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <001601d90fe2$b336f850$19a4e8f0$@rainier66.com> <005101d90fef$00c6a8c0$0253fa40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015401d91009$30143100$903c9300$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: John Klos >...I don't agree with that at all. If he's aware of his condition, yet he doesn't care in the least to remove himself from situations where his condition would cause him to mis-evaluate and make woefully poor decisions, that's not right... John, Twitter was crashing. Musk buying Twitter wasn't a woefully poor decision. It would take someone with his business skill and his pile of money to save that company. I don't know who else could have or would have done it. Do you? >...You can't choose to be an asshole, then just blame it on Asperger's... Sure but with Aspergers, he didn't choose to be an asshole. It chose him. He chooses to involve himself with stuff like human resources. And while you believe Twitter couldn't pay its rent, which isn't true, he's doing that with SpaceX, too, by expecting people to give up their personal lives or be fired. >...BTW - you might want to examine where you get your pro-Elon information, Spike... >From Twitter. That was easy. If Twitter goes out of business, we know the information I got from Twitter was wrong. If it stays in business, then Twitter was right and Elon saved Twitter. Jack was failing badly. What kind of people the CEOs are is completely irrelevant. What kind of business skills they have are what matters in that situation. If the employees choose to stay, they are agreeing to his terms, even if they don't like him. >...The idea that Twitter hasn't paid their rent had literally nothing to do with them running out of money or being near bankrupt, which is what Elon has suggested. It's because Elon stopped paying it! Ja, of course it has everything to do with them running out of money. Companies pay for their expenses. Twitter was so deep in the red, it couldn't pay for itself (at those staffing levels.) If it is that deep in the red with no viable recovery plan, it is time to use the remaining cash on hand to buy out the remaining share holders rather than just run that remaining value to zero. So ja, it was running out of money, to the tune of 4 million bucks a day. A CEO's duty is to protect the investors. Was Jack doing that? If Elon owns that company, he is the only stockholder. If it is losing money and he can't save it, then no more Twitter. Where do the idle twitters go then? Truth Social? >...I agree the companies with which he's involved are doing good things, but when they get to the point where profit becomes more important than progress, one needs to step back... John, without profit, there is no progress because there is no company. Profit drives all progress. >...Someone who has no capacity for empathy, shouldn't be involved in the decisionmaking related to, for instance, self-driving cars that end up killing people. John Well there ya go. I noticed that Tesla has taken a step back from the notion of level 4. I predict that a lot of the current driver assist features in other brands will disappear in the coming model years, with the exception of auto-braking. I predict no steering-wheel interference on the part of the car in the 2033 model year. spike From sjatkins at protonmail.com Thu Dec 15 00:25:22 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 00:25:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> Message-ID: I am excited by the news but I wonder as a matter of engineering how far this gain of energy result is from a practical fusion electrical plant much less the fusion rocket engines I have dreamed of since I was a kid. ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 7:20 AM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > Quoting Dave Sill: > > > > We interrupt this conspiracy theory discussion for some interesting > > science news. > > > > -Dave > > > Right? You would think that people would be dancing in the streets, > knowing that their children wouldn't have to fight to the death over > the last barrel of oil, eat each other, or hold hands singing Kumbaya > while the lights went out forever. This is huge. This gets Malthus off > of our backs for the foreseeable future and moves us much closer to > becoming a space-faring type I civilization. I literally cried when I > heard about this. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > https://www.llnl.gov/news/national-ignition-facility-achieves-fusion-ignition > > > > National Ignition Facility achieves fusion ignition > > > > Share toFacebookShare to TwitterShare to LinkedinShare toEmail > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 07:19:18 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 02:19:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 9:22 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Right? You would think that people would be dancing in the streets, > knowing that their children wouldn't have to fight to the death over > the last barrel of oil, eat each other, or hold hands singing Kumbaya > while the lights went out forever. This is huge. This gets Malthus off > of our backs for the foreseeable future and moves us much closer to > becoming a space-faring type I civilization. I literally cried when I > heard about this. > > ### This is a nothingburger. Guys running the project needed to drum up publicity before applying for more research grants, so they spew press releases and the gullible journos amplify the funding call. Fusion research is a waste of time and money, unless unexpected and strange advances happen. All the projects are so many orders of magnitude away from useful fusion conditions it's not even funny. The radioactive waste problem is immense, much larger than with fission energy. The whole thing might turn out to be impossible this side of the singularity. More importantly, it's all useless because solar wind and battery (SWB) is already destroying the economic incentive to produce energy in any other way, fossil, fission or fusion, and the disparity in economic performance will only grow as SWB further matures. SWB is already cheaper than coal and to think that fusion could rival SWB economically is a pipe dream (again, short of strange and unexpected discoveries in fusion research). Just mine more lithium, tile the deserts with solar and don't pay attention to doomsayers. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 07:32:10 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 02:32:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 12:30 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > But if we ignore the fact that he's simply a shitty person and separately > evaluate the idea that Twitter is somehow more open, is it? ### I wonder how much of the current anti-Elon hysteria is due to the visceral hatred that leftists have for successful people and how much of the outrage is actively manufactured by the various power groups that are made a bit insecure (not really threatened, that would be too much hope for) by Elon's honesty. Tesla stock dropped so low it's trading at cheaper EPS than Chipotle. Chipotle! If I had any cash not earmarked for taxes now, I'd be buying more Tesla stock.... except there is the coming recession on top of the existing recession, so maybe it's best to hold on to cash until sometime next year. Long live Elon, the Paladin of Truth! Elon for POTUS! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 15 14:20:15 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 06:20:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat ? On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 12:30 PM John Klos via extropy-chat > wrote: But if we ignore the fact that he's simply a shitty person and separately evaluate the idea that Twitter is somehow more open, is it? >?### I wonder how much of the current anti-Elon hysteria is due to the visceral hatred?. I do think a lot of the vitriol is over personality, which is irrelevant for a CEO, completely irrelevant. I don?t care what kind of person he is any more than he cares what kind I am: I don?t intend to invite him to lunch and he doesn?t intend to invite me. All of those considerations should be disregarded and the focus should be on how money is invested, what actions were taken, etc. Get others, community leaders, charity organizers and so forth, to be your moral and ethical guides, leave corporate leaders to faceless entities who know how to move money and make cool stuff happen. >?Long live Elon, the Paladin of Truth! Inquiring minds want to know. In our times, our privacy is being ripped away. OK then, our political leaders should have their damn curtain torn back too. >?Elon for POTUS! Elon?s not eligible for POTUS: not born in USA. He?s an African, naturalized US citizen. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Thu Dec 15 15:02:48 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 15:02:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > I do think a lot of the vitriol is over personality, which is irrelevant > for a CEO, completely irrelevant. I don???t care what kind of person he > is any more than he cares what kind I am: I don???t intend to invite him > to lunch and he doesn???t intend to invite me. All of those > considerations should be disregarded and the focus should be on how > money is invested, what actions were taken, etc. Get others, community > leaders, charity organizers and so forth, to be your moral and ethical > guides, leave corporate leaders to faceless entities who know how to > move money and make cool stuff happen. Absolutely disagree. An asshole wouldn't think twice about lying, or manipulating, or just being an asshole. For instance, most people other than Tim Cook would probably calculate that by not taking stands on privacy, child labor and rare materials, Apple could make a few percent more $. Google, on the other hand, calculated that they could make more $ by depricating their "do no evil" slogan and, well, doing evil. An asshole like Elon can't be trusted to not lie, to not fabricate, to not do whatever he wants even when it's unambiguously wrong and hope to not get caught. John From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 15 15:08:35 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 07:08:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: John Klos Absolutely disagree. >...An asshole wouldn't think twice about lying, or manipulating, or just being an asshole. ... >...An asshole like Elon can't be trusted to not lie, to not fabricate, to not do whatever he wants even when it's unambiguously wrong and hope to not get caught. John OK well we already caught Jack Dorsey. My guess is they won't prosecute: Jack already bought enough retail politicians to cover it. spike From john at ziaspace.com Thu Dec 15 16:45:47 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 16:45:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >> ...An asshole like Elon can't be trusted to not lie, to not fabricate, to > not do whatever he wants even when it's unambiguously wrong and hope to not > get caught. John > OK well we already caught Jack Dorsey. My guess is they won't prosecute: > Jack already bought enough retail politicians to cover it. It's discussions like this that are why I generally refrain from participating in online discussions. The discussion was originally about how Elon is somehow a champion of "free speech". In reality, he's an asshole who, for reasons we don't know, wants to platform white supremacists, anti-Semitics, people with a history of hateful behavior and more. He does so by claiming it's in the interest of "free speech". You, Spike, are optimistic about this and appear to take Elon at his word, whereas I, and many others, look at his actions and therefore don't believe him. An important point was brought up: a Twitter account that tracked his plane was terminated. He said, quite literally, that he wouldn't do that. You never addressed this, but instead started talking about all sorts of other, apparently irrelevant things. Here, you do the same: who cares about Jack Dorsey? The fact that Elon is an asshole and therefore we expect him to behave like one has nothing to do with Jack Dorsey, nor with anyone else. Even if a million people behaved exactly like Elon, that doesn't justify his actions. If you want to posit that Elon is for "free speech", yet you don't want to acknowledge relevant points made about how that has been proven to not be true, then I have a feeling more people than just I will find it easier to ignore messages like these than engage with you. I really like that most of the discussions here are rational and reasonable, yet we can still wonder fantastically and run with our imaginations. But fanboi worship without caring about facts? Not fun :( John From interzone at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 16:46:23 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 11:46:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think you must be joking about Cook. The CCP owns him. I suppose there aren't any children working in those Foxconn hellholes with the suicide nets, and other more recent issues, but they are certainly brutal sweatshops. You comment on his stance on privacy is also ill timed, as while he may give the appearance of caring about privacy for users in Western countries because it is a convenient marketing point, he clearly doesn't actually care about it based on his willingness to do the CCP's bidding: https://www.engadget.com/apple-10-minute-cap-everyone-airdrop-090340980.html Of course, now that the egg is firmly on face, the rest of the world is getting punished as well so that he has (im)plausible deniability: https://www.engadget.com/apple-china-airdrop-limit-everyone-ios-16-2-223231192.html Now that he has realized who his masters are, he's scrambling to try to move stuff out of there, but it's too little, too late: https://www.vietnam-briefing.com/news/why-apple-is-diversifying-and-looking-to-vietnam-as-an-alternate-production-center.html/ The writing has been on the wall as far as the CCP for a very long time now. He may not be alone in being part of the problem, but he's a huge part of it, and is certainly no saint, and little better than Google in the doing evil department. On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 10:03 AM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > For instance, most people other than Tim Cook would probably calculate > that by not taking stands on privacy, child labor and rare materials, > Apple could make a few percent more $. Google, on the other hand, > calculated that they could make more $ by depricating their "do no evil" > slogan and, well, doing evil. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 17:02:59 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 12:02:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There is zero risk of prosecution for Dorsey. Twitter put its thumb on the scale in elections (along with Meta and Alphabet) in the service of those currently in power. Nothing will come of the circumventing of the 1st amendment by TPTB as well. He doesn't need to buy any politicians, he works for them willingly. On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 10:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > OK well we already caught Jack Dorsey. My guess is they won't prosecute: > Jack already bought enough retail politicians to cover it. > > spike > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Thu Dec 15 17:06:26 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 17:06:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > I think you must be joking about Cook. The CCP owns him. I suppose there > aren't any children working in those Foxconn hellholes with the suicide > nets, and other more recent issues, but they are certainly brutal > sweatshops. Not a single part of this reply was about the original discussion. I was using Apple / Cook as an example, like adding end-to-end encryption for backups, to the chagrin of the FBI: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303#advanced Whether you think the CCP owns Apple, consider the fact that Apple is moving production out of China as quickly as they can. But really, all of this is a completely different discussion. John From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 21:52:15 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 16:52:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 9:20 AM wrote: > > Elon?s not eligible for POTUS: not born in USA. He?s an African, > naturalized US citizen. > > > ### The Constitution needs to be rewritten! Let's start a PAC and get it done. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 21:58:59 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 16:58:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 10:03 AM John Klos wrote: > > I do think a lot of the vitriol is over personality, which is irrelevant > > for a CEO, completely irrelevant. I don?t care what kind of person he > > is any more than he cares what kind I am: I don?t intend to invite him > > to lunch and he doesn?t intend to invite me. All of those > > considerations should be disregarded and the focus should be on how > > money is invested, what actions were taken, etc. Get others, community > > leaders, charity organizers and so forth, to be your moral and ethical > > guides, leave corporate leaders to faceless entities who know how to > > move money and make cool stuff happen. > > Absolutely disagree. > > An asshole wouldn't think twice about lying, or manipulating, or just > being an asshole. > > For instance, most people other than Tim Cook would probably calculate > that by not taking stands on privacy, child labor and rare materials, > Apple could make a few percent more $. Google, on the other hand, > calculated that they could make more $ by depricating their "do no evil" > slogan and, well, doing evil. > ### You are right, the moral fiber of the CEO is quite important. --------------------- > > An asshole like Elon can't be trusted to not lie, to not fabricate, to not > do whatever he wants even when it's unambiguously wrong and hope to not > get caught. ### Leftist journos (but I am repeating myself there) shiver with hysterical rage when they hear the name of the Paladin of Truth, Mr Nice incarnate, St. Elon Musk. No surprise that many who are exposed to said journos' output may develop a false consciousness regarding his person. Regrettably. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 22:02:12 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 17:02:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 11:53 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think you must be joking about Cook. The CCP owns him. I suppose there > aren't any children working in those Foxconn hellholes with the suicide > nets, and other more recent issues, but they are certainly brutal > sweatshops. > ### Yes, Apple has long been kissing Chicom ass. US companies should be barred from trading or investing in the Communist part of China, until the Chicom are defeated. And that includes Tesla. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 23:00:02 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 17:00:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] innovation by country Message-ID: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/most-innovative-countries-2022/ As is shown, lots of places are getting left in the dust, sometimes the result of banning GMO plants, fission reactors, and the like. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 15 23:12:48 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 15:12:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? >> ...An asshole like Elon can't be trusted to not lie, to not >> fabricate, to > not do whatever he wants even when it's unambiguously wrong and hope > to not get caught. John > OK well we already caught Jack Dorsey. My guess is they won't prosecute: > Jack already bought enough retail politicians to cover it. >...It's discussions like this that are why I generally refrain from participating in online discussions. The discussion was originally about how Elon is somehow a champion of "free speech"... John I didn't get the free speech part. Elon didn't say he wouldn't ban posters. What he said was he wouldn't shadowban posters. He would be up front about who he was banning, and make everything visible. This he did. He added a feature which shows a post's reach. This seems perfectly reasonable to me. >...In reality, he's an asshole... I care not what kind of person he is. I care about openness. I also wanted to see Twitter saved, because none of the alternatives appear to be suitable. Rumbl? Truth Social? Jack was about to drive Twitter into the ground. Losing 4 million bucks a day, well how long can that be sustained? With their cash reserves, not very long. John you questioned my assertion that Twitter couldn't pay its rent. Well, it couldn't. It couldn't even pay its own employees without dipping into its cash reserves. If they are drawing those down at that rate, they can't afford what they are trying to do. I had asked what would any of us do any differently. I had one idea: get that HQ out of San Francisco, out to the central valley north of Stockton, in the Lodi area where the rent on office space is a quarter what it is in SF. They could even have a catchy theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0VDnQv-rLA Half of the employees would leave voluntarily, so that reduces the number of necessary layoffs dramatically. I was out there recently: there is available office space. >... wants to platform white supremacists, anti-Semitics, people with a history of hateful behavior and more. He does so by claiming it's in the interest of "free speech"... I didn't see anything in there which suggested anything of the kind. >...You, Spike, are optimistic about this and appear to take Elon at his word, whereas I, and many others, look at his actions and therefore don't believe him... John, had not Elon made the attempt, Twitter was finished. Then where? Truth Central? Jack Dorsey wasn't even trying to save the site. >...An important point was brought up: a Twitter account that tracked his plane was terminated. He said, quite literally, that he wouldn't do that... What I heard is that he said he wouldn't terminate accounts secretly. He was open about that, and I would do the same thing if some creep was tracking my movements. That is a scaled-up version of stalking. You and I would do the same thing. >...Here, you do the same: who cares about Jack Dorsey?... Jack was running Twitter into the ground, with no plan to pull out of the power dive. He lied to congress. That is (technically) a crime. >...The fact that Elon is an asshole and therefore we expect him to behave like one has nothing to do with Jack Dorsey... I care not what kind of people either of these guys are. ... >...If you want to posit that Elon is for "free speech"... John What I heard is openness, not necessarily free speech. That charging 8 bucks for a blue check sounded like a good idea to me, even though it would end the notion of "free" speech. I advocate openness on the part of Twitter. Jack did not. Elon does. spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 15 23:53:09 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 15:53:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015a01d910e0$62e7afd0$28b70f70$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 9:20 AM > wrote: Elon?s not eligible for POTUS: not born in USA. He?s an African, naturalized US citizen. ### The Constitution needs to be rewritten! Let's start a PAC and get it done. Rafal Rafal on the contrary sir. The constitution has a mechanism for that kind of change: the amendment process. It doesn?t need to be rewritten. In any case, having Elon as POTUS would be a tragic waste of that level of talent. Alternative: elect someone who recognizes the value in having Musk as a consultant. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 02:35:05 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 18:35:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...I had asked what would any of us do any differently. I had one idea: get that HQ out of San Francisco, out to the central valley north of Stockton, in the Lodi area where the rent on office space is a quarter what it is in SF. They could even have a catchy theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0VDnQv-rLA Someone posted me offlist ridiculing this idea, but it is growing on me, so I wish to run with the ball, using my own experience. A long time ago I was working with a subcontractor in Newark NJ in a position which required me to travel there every other Wednesday. Oh that was a pain in the ass. I really didn't like that duty at all, didn't like Newark, never really did get my feet on the ground there after 20 trips over a year. Then they announced they were moving out of that factory in Newark to a new business park about an hour drive west of Liberty International to a mixed chorus of cheers and despair. For the visiting tech team, that too was mixed, but I loved it out there. It was a small quiet traditional NJ town way the hell and gone in the middle of nothing, but it was great for my contract. Stuff really got done out there. It was a new business park, so all the buildings were new, everything was new, except the town itself. A few of the staff quit rather than go to work out there, but most stayed. I am envisioning what Twitter HQ would be like if they bought that lot where Lodi Toyota sits and the farms north, east and south of it along that frontage road (Beckman) then turned all that into the new Twitter HQ. That would be a GREAT place for that kind of business. They don't need to import or export material or manufactured goods, there is plenty of available housing around there at a waaaay better price than anywhere near SF. They could have a new HQ building ready to go inside of a year. Lodi could become the new Twitter City. That's what I would do different from Elon: I would move that HQ out of San Francisco forthwith. I don't know that he is planning that move. spike From avant at sollegro.com Fri Dec 16 03:07:27 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 19:07:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough Message-ID: <20221215190727.Horde.MOnJWdK5D3qwmuDkjABQSFt@sollegro.com> Quoting Spike: > > ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough > > > Quoting Dave Sill: > > >> We interrupt this conspiracy theory discussion for some interesting >> science news. >> >> -Dave > > Right? You would think that people would be dancing in the streets, knowing > that their children wouldn't have to fight to the death over the last barrel > of oil, eat each other, or hold hands singing Kumbaya while the lights went > out forever. This is huge. This gets Malthus off of our backs for the > foreseeable future and moves us much closer to becoming a space-faring type > I civilization. I literally cried when I heard about this. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > Stuart don't literally cry yet. Reaching fusion breakeven is cool, but that > in itself is insufficient to indicate our children will not fight to the > death over the last lump of coal, over which to grill their neighbor. It is > progress, but before you strike up the band, consider the mechanism for > recovering the energy is in that fast neutron, and what potential that > process has for improvement. The fact that we now have something real to improve rather that a theoretical thing to vaguely aim for is of importance. The scientists were aiming for breakeven and they got 150%. Now it becomes an optimization problem rather than a mere theoretical possibility. > > I get a good feeling that reaching breakeven is an indication that humanity > might be within a few decades of making fusion a practical energy source, > but it isn't entirely clear that will be in time to prevent the neighborhood > barbecue scenario. Let's hope we can make fusion pay before then. > > Breakeven will likely attract funding for more research however. If a > solution exists, we will find it. Getting more people into the field is a > good thing, because nuclear physics requires the study of stuff which is > real. Science and math rule that world. So if there is promise there, it > helps drain the silly and foolish stuff that too many students squander > their college years studying and fill the seats in the physics and > engineering classrooms, where they teach reality. > > Maintain hope Stuart: dynamic optimism in our times is perhaps best > expressed by studying physics. > > spike > From avant at sollegro.com Fri Dec 16 03:09:30 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 19:09:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough Message-ID: <20221215190930.Horde.QtamXmy0zawm7Z3Qpws4lTM@sollegro.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: >> Right? You would think that people would be dancing in the streets, >> knowing that their children wouldn't have to fight to the death over >> the last barrel of oil, eat each other, or hold hands singing Kumbaya >> while the lights went out forever. This is huge. This gets Malthus off >> of our backs for the foreseeable future and moves us much closer to >> becoming a space-faring type I civilization. I literally cried when I >> heard about this. >> >> ### This is a nothingburger. Guys running the project needed to drum up > publicity before applying for more research grants, so they spew press > releases and the gullible journos amplify the funding call. I thought the same thing, until the very end of the press conference when the lead scientist specifically requested people to apply for jobs at their lab. I am not certain, but announcing job openings while hyping a "nothing burger" is one hell of a ballsy bluff unless the grants are already paid in full . . . in advance. And the DOE, like the DOD, has not lacked for funding since the previous world war. They are firmly entrenched in the iron triangle. But more importantly this is tangible hope like a "Land ho!" from an ancient mariner upon sighting land. We have turned controlled fusion from a theoretical possibility to an engineering optimization problem. That is real progress. > > Fusion research is a waste of time and money, unless unexpected and strange > advances happen. All the projects are so many orders of magnitude away from > useful fusion conditions it's not even funny. The radioactive waste problem > is immense, much larger than with fission energy. The whole thing might > turn out to be impossible this side of the singularity. What nuclear waste is there in laser-primed fusion of deuterium fuel pellets? And which side of the singularity are we on, Rafal? There are natural language model chat-bots with reading comprehension and writing scores that rival those of college students; meanwhile college grads are still less than 1/3 of the population for both men and women. Ditto when it comes to vivid visual portrayals of anything one can verbally describe. And there is a Google engineer trying to get the courts to emancipate proprietary software. > More importantly, it's all useless because solar wind and battetany other > way, fossil, fission or fusion, and the disparity in economic performance > will only grow as SWB further matures. How much of that economic destruction by SWB is due to government interference and subsidization of solar and wind? And SWB would be far less useful on Mars or Europa. Whereas fusion is like carrying around your own shard of a star. > SWB is already cheaper than coal and > to think that fusion could rival SWB economically is a pipe dream (again, > short of strange and unexpected discoveries in fusion research). About 15-20 years ago people were just as skeptical and made the same arguments about SWB with respect to fossil. When something happens after 60-straight years of well-funded nothing, it IS unexpected. fuels. > > Just mine more lithium, tile the deserts with solar and don't pay attention > to doomsayers. Lithium is good. I agree we should mine more. If deserts tiled with solar panels is how we achieve the wattage to to ignite our fusion reactions, then so be it. How much energy is too much, Rafal? Why are you willing to leave energy on the table? This is a Promethean moment for all of humanity; it is tangible hope. Doomsayers? Civilizations rise and fall. That is a fact of life. The half life of a civilization is roughly 200 years. And when civilizations fall, the dark ages that follow are sordid affairs. Fusion would be one mighty candle to hold against the darkness. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 03:21:19 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 19:21:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] megatesla Message-ID: <001b01d910fd$77e3d310$67ab7930$@rainier66.com> I saw that the price for the new 2023 Tesla Model 3 is about 44k, so that got me to thinking: Musk just paid about a million Tesla for Twitter. The length of a model 3 is 4.7 meters, so the price of Twitter in model 3 Teslas parked bumper to bumper touching is the distance from my house in the SF Bay Area to Newark NJ. I have driven across that stretch of highway and do fondly hope I never hafta do that again. I am struggling to envision all that with a continuous line of Teslas the whole way. That is a loooong damn ways across there. Elon musta wanted that company pretty damn badly to trade a million Teslas for it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 03:39:43 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 19:39:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: <20221215190930.Horde.QtamXmy0zawm7Z3Qpws4lTM@sollegro.com> References: <20221215190930.Horde.QtamXmy0zawm7Z3Qpws4lTM@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <003701d91100$09cef2d0$1d6cd870$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >...What nuclear waste is there in laser-primed fusion of deuterium fuel pellets?... Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Stuart, the deetz are hard to come by on that fusion event from Lawrence Livermore but from what I have been able to glean from various sources, this experiment fused tritium with deuterium. That reaction produces a neutron (14 MeV) and radiation with energy about 3.5 MeV. It wasn't entirely clear, but it sounds like this experiment only tried to recover the radiation energy and didn't do anything with the energy in that hot neutron. In any case, that neutron would be absorbed by the containment vessel, which becomes radioactive over time as a result. This is a bad thing, for that means the containment vessel is weakened over time as well. There have been a number of schemes proposed to recover the energy in that neutron, but I have not heard any of them have worked out. spike From john at ziaspace.com Fri Dec 16 04:23:33 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 04:23:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > We are seeing a dramatic transition play out at Twitter. It has now > become my primary news source, surpassing Reason and Slashdot. Now I > would put it in first place for finding information. This is just ridiculous. If you get your news from social media, you get what you deserve, but your opinions about journalism will likely be treated as suspect. > Then we would either have no Twitter or a version of it with no > moderation at all, which would likely devolve into the chaotic hellscape > were told it would be now but isn't. Based on what? Based on the last decade of the history of Twitter, or based on the ramblings of a manchild who makes stuff up when he wants to? There is no history whatsoever that points to this. Please provide examples of this history, if you assert it exists. > > From Twitter. That was easy. If Twitter goes out of business, we > > know the information I got from Twitter was wrong. If it stays in > > business, then Twitter was right and Elon saved Twitter. Seriously? That's not how anything works. This is just childish and stupid. Please don't treat us like idiots. > Ja, of course it has everything to do with them running out of money. > Companies pay for their expenses. Twitter was so deep in the red, it I really don't understand you, Spike. The actual history in the real world, not in Elon's imaginary world, is that Twitter was paying its employees and paying its rent, yet you came here and told us they weren't even paying their rent as an example of why Elon had to save it? I am completely puzzled about why you would make such blatantly wrong assertions. Do you not check any of the sources of the information you share here? > John, without profit, there is no progress because there is no company. > Profit drives all progress. That's not the point made at all. You're jumping around wildly. Try again: "when profit becomes more important" doesn't mean that we have a binary decision between progress or profit and can't have both. Elon is using profit as an excuse to do all sorts of things, and they're shitty, and it's a good thing he's not more involved in day-to-day operations at SpaceX, else we'd be seeing him wandering around and firing people left and right, and refusing to pay contractors. Elon decided to stop paying rent. Period. If you want to suggest otherwise, provide a reference. Speaking of not paying rent: who else is extremely well known for stiffing people? > I care not what kind of person he is. I care about openness. I also > wanted to see Twitter saved, because none of the alternatives appear to > be suitable. Rumbl? Truth Social? Jack was about to drive Twitter > into the ground. Losing 4 million bucks a day, well how long can that > be sustained? With their cash reserves, not very long. "Openness"? How open is a platform where a manchild decides on a whim what's acceptable and what isn't? How is that somehow better than trying to have a set of guidelines that everyone knows and are applied evenhandedly, and not selectively? Twitter wasn't going out of business. Again, your assertions are just plainly, flatly wrong. If you disagree, please provide even a modicum of data that doesn't come from Elon. Also, there are plenty of alternatives. The fediverse is really taking off, thanks to Elon. > John you questioned my assertion that Twitter couldn't pay its rent. > Well, it couldn't. It couldn't even pay its own employees without > dipping into its cash reserves. If they are drawing those down at that > rate, they can't afford what they are trying to do. Data, please. Again, a wholly wrong assertion with no actual data. Show me ANY source that substantiates the suggestion that Twitter either couldn't or wasn't paying its rent and/or its employees pre-Musk. > > ... wants to platform white supremacists, anti-Semitics, people with a > > history of hateful behavior and more. He does so by claiming it's in > > the interest of "free speech"... > > I didn't see anything in there which suggested anything of the kind. Sigh. We have an implicit agreement when we write that the context would either be clear, or we'd clarify. "in there" refers to what? To my message? To Twitter? There are MANY examples of Elon platforming right wingers, anti-Semites, white supremacists. Would you like some references, or do you simply not believe things because you haven't seen it mentioned on Twitter? > > ...An important point was brought up: a Twitter account that tracked > > his plane was terminated. He said, quite literally, that he wouldn't > > do that... > > What I heard is that he said he wouldn't terminate accounts secretly. > He was open about that, and I would do the same thing if some creep was > tracking my movements. That is a scaled-up version of stalking. You > and I would do the same thing. Ad hominem attacks are par for the course with Elon, what with him making stuff up about people being pedophiles and about, for instance, Paul Pelosi's attacker being a secret gay lover. So this kid who took PUBLIC information and tweeted PUBLIC information is a creep now? Speaking of this, Elon has a very weird, disturbing fixation about pedophilia. Anyhow, the point was that Elon lied. He lied, and the blatant lie was right in that thread. Now he's claiming that his kid was stalked / harassed because of the plane tracking account? It's entirely possible that the harassment thing happened. It's also entirely possible that the stalker / harasser got information about the arrival of Elon's plane from the plane Twitter account. But does one necessarily lead to the other? How'd the harasser know which of the many exits from the private part of the airport the car would use? Could the harasser have gotten the information directly from the FAA's web site? Absolutely. It's an excuse, not a real reason to cancel the account. But I'm glad it happened, because Elon is on record (not that it really matters much, but perhaps it'll be relevant in court) saying that real-time tracking of personal information is banned. This would be a WONDERFUL thing because Twitter has long had a problem of people doxxing others. We'll see if this does go in to practice other than selectively. > > ...The fact that Elon is an asshole and therefore we expect him to > > behave like one has nothing to do with Jack Dorsey... > > I care not what kind of people either of these guys are. > > I advocate openness on the part of Twitter. Jack did not. Elon does. I didn't ask if you cared. I simply pointed out the fact that he is an asshole, and as an asshole, he can't be trusted to not do asshole things. If you don't care, fine, but unless you have reasons for us to consider him to not be an asshole, it's somewhat hard for you to suggest that he won't partake in asshole behavior. So you advocate for the openness of Twitter? Then explain this: https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1603551884748460034 You see, I can: he's an asshole and a manchild and will do whatever he wants, and he can't be trusted to be an adult and either do the right thing or to even be true to his word. But go on and tell us how banning dozens of journalists is a path to "openness". If I sound angry, it's because you're treating us like children. Please consider not doing that. Thanks, John From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 04:57:48 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 20:57:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007901d9110a$f286b580$d7942080$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat ... >...Data, please. Again, a wholly wrong assertion with no actual data. Show me ANY source that substantiates the suggestion that Twitter either couldn't or wasn't paying its rent and/or its employees pre-Musk... This source says Twitter still isn't generating enough revenue to cover its expenses. Until it does, I would agree with this writer, who suggests that it risks bankruptcy: https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/twitter-bankruptcy-possi ble-if-cash-burn-doesn-t-stop-musk-tells-employees-122111100134_1.html > > ... wants to platform white supremacists, anti-Semitics, people with > > a history of hateful behavior and more. He does so by claiming it's > > in the interest of "free speech"... > > I didn't see anything in there which suggested anything of the kind. >...Sigh. We have an implicit agreement when we write that the context would either be clear, or we'd clarify. "in there" refers to what? To my message? To Twitter? We have no objective way to determine if a person fits these descriptions. Can you give us a way or an equation with actual variables or some way software can determine if a person fits these categories? Subjective judgment on these things are what led to Twitter in a power dive towards bankruptcy, which even now is not clear can be avoided. Twitter was drawing on cash reserves just to make regular payroll and pay the rent, with no viable plan for recovery. That isn't how businesses work. There is no objective definition of "hateful behavior." But it is clear enough to me that eventually content moderation will need objective measures, which can be coded into software. >...There are MANY examples of Elon platforming right wingers, anti-Semites, white supremacists... That is a perfect example of the problem John. It makes it sound like you wish to equate right wingers with anti-Semites, white supremacists. OK so what if... the right wing equates left wingers with all that? Is that OK too? Or is it OK for the one wing and not the other? >...I didn't ask if you cared. I simply pointed out the fact that he is an asshole, and as an asshole, he can't be trusted to not do asshole things... I see, and can you show us an equation or objective measure to determine if a person is an asshole? If so, we can write software to determine if it is so, and we don't need to pay people to make that determination. Where I am going with this is that we cannot trust subjective measures to do content moderation. That is inherently unfair. I would consider calling someone an asshole an ad hominem attack, which is poor form indeed. Perhaps you would like to rephrase it John? >...So you advocate for the openness of Twitter? Then explain this: https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1603551884748460034 Ben Collins explains that Rupar was tweeting links to Twitter's competitor. I don't think Twitter wants to advertise for its own competitors. Do you? spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 05:17:36 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2022 21:17:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000401d9110d$b6b5e000$2421a000$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat >...There are MANY examples of Elon platforming right wingers, anti-Semites, white supremacists... Thanks, John _______________________________________________ John, in California we had a recall election in which about 30 were running to replace Governor Newsom. A recall election ordinarily does not have negative campaigning: if the governor attempts it, the guy he negatively campaigned against loses and the governor is replaced by one of the other about 29 remaining candidates. In the most bizarre recall election ever, Governor Newsom picked out the one black guy running for governor and accused the one black guy of being a white supremacist. To me that was evidence that term means nothing other than a perfectly transparent and cynical attempt to leverage a real problem into a political advantage. I don't believe Larry Elder is a white supremacist. In light of that, do explain your comment about Elon platforming white supremacists. spike From giulio at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 05:49:20 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 06:49:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] VIDEO: Terasem Colloquium, December 14, 2022 Message-ID: VIDEO: Terasem Colloquium, December 14, 2022. 50th anniversary of the last day astronauts have been on the Moon. Michelle Hanlon, Giuseppe Reibaldi, Marl?ne Mich?le Losier, Adriano Autino, Keith Henson, Frank White. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=054CCWNbExY -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 06:44:33 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 01:44:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <000401d9110d$b6b5e000$2421a000$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <000401d9110d$b6b5e000$2421a000$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, your problem is that you only ever criticize one side. That makes you look like a hypocrite, and it is hard to take you seriously on a lot of issues because it's not clear how much your opinion is influenced by that bias. Also hard to take seriously all the times it IS clear how much your opinion is influenced by that bias. You simply have not even mild criticisms for people you simp for, besides my aforementioned golly gee don't look at me I'm just an earnest goofball type of thing like saying your criticism of Elon is that he is a hard worker. Speaking of Elon, not sure if this is the right thread but don't care cuz it's all a chaotic mess here now anyway: @Rafal: personally I'm not a huge fan for reasons you did not state. I appreciate his businesses and that he is probably the most innovative/creative/earnest hyper-rich celebrity mogul we have (low bar). I like his hard work stuff and some of his ideas. I don't support him though because he is CRINGE. And narcissistically insecure. Constantly making very awkward and bad joke tweets. Also, tweets he thinks are deep but are the kind of thing a 15 year old thinks when they get high for the first time. His weird megalomania right down to pushing his dumb joke tweets to everyone's feed. He comes off as, and is, very desperate. Watch the new clip of him on Chappelle. Why did he even come out? All he wants is validation and love from the crowd but he's too autistically negligent to figure out how to actually make people like him. So that's why I don't really support him much, because I know someone better will come along, and because a lot of times it feels like he's already done the best stuff he ever will. Maybe he'll have an awakening and do something unexpected and interesting. To his credit, that is the kind of think he might do. But he is so awkwardly unlikable that I can't really support him as some kind of social leader. Hate to say it but he and many many others could learn a lot from Trump regarding oratory and conversational skills. On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 12:18 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat > > > >...There are MANY examples of Elon platforming right wingers, > anti-Semites, > white supremacists... > Thanks, > John > > _______________________________________________ > > > John, in California we had a recall election in which about 30 were running > to replace Governor Newsom. A recall election ordinarily does not have > negative campaigning: if the governor attempts it, the guy he negatively > campaigned against loses and the governor is replaced by one of the other > about 29 remaining candidates. In the most bizarre recall election ever, > Governor Newsom picked out the one black guy running for governor and > accused the one black guy of being a white supremacist. > > To me that was evidence that term means nothing other than a perfectly > transparent and cynical attempt to leverage a real problem into a political > advantage. I don't believe Larry Elder is a white supremacist. > > In light of that, do explain your comment about Elon platforming white > supremacists. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 06:48:31 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 01:48:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 11:25 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > white supremacists. ### This term used unironically, as you did, is a rather nasty racist slur, which, regrettably, is quite popular among leftoids. You should not use racist slurs. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 07:03:17 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 02:03:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It's true that the term is used far too much against anyone they disagree with but there are also a lot of actual white supremacists, which identify specifically as white supremacists, and whose beliefs insane and toxic and destructive. Not to say the other side can't also be those things, I think the weird self-loathing 'woke' 'sjw' consumerist faux-leftism is really bad and dumb but so is actually racism. You're prob like a nazbol or something though so idk On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 1:52 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 11:25 PM John Klos via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> white supremacists. > > > ### This term used unironically, as you did, is a rather nasty racist > slur, which, regrettably, is quite popular among leftoids. > > You should not use racist slurs. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 07:12:54 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 02:12:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <000401d9110d$b6b5e000$2421a000$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:46 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > @Rafal: personally I'm not a huge fan for reasons you did not state. I > appreciate his businesses and that he is probably the most > innovative/creative/earnest hyper-rich celebrity mogul we have (low bar). > I like his hard work stuff and some of his ideas. > > I don't support him though because he is CRINGE. And narcissistically > insecure. Constantly making very awkward and bad joke tweets. Also, tweets > he thinks are deep but are the kind of thing a 15 year old thinks when they > get high for the first time. His weird megalomania right down to pushing > his dumb joke tweets to everyone's feed. He comes off as, and is, very > desperate. Watch the new clip of him on Chappelle. Why did he even come > out? All he wants is validation and love from the crowd but he's too > autistically negligent to figure out how to actually make people like him. > > So that's why I don't really support him much, because I know someone > better will come along, and because a lot of times it feels like he's > already done the best stuff he ever will. > > Maybe he'll have an awakening and do something unexpected and > interesting. To his credit, that is the kind of think he might do. But he > is so awkwardly unlikable that I can't really support him as some kind of > social leader. Hate to say it but he and many many others could learn a > lot from Trump regarding oratory and conversational skills. > ### Yeah, and that SNL appearance was cringe, too. Elon is aspy, no question about it. And that shit about Ukraine needing to talk to the Muscovites and brown-nosing with the Chicom, and the weird dance moves, yes, there is a lot of surface detail that could turn you off. Still, he does act right. He has creativity, focus and very good technical judgment. He is the most authentic major CEO out there. Compare him to the poisonous toad Mary Barra. He is not afraid to admit mistakes. He is fighting the good fight - for freedom of speech, for AI safety, for uploading, for human survival off-planet. Most importantly, he has the most audacious, brazen, optimistic and inspiring vision for our future - multi-planetary, transhumanist - exactly the kind of ideas that first attracted me to the Extropian list back in the 1990's. We dreamed of this future 25 years ago, and now the engineers under Elon's leadership are actually making it happen. That's why I do support Elon, cringe and all. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 07:46:02 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 02:46:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: <20221215190930.Horde.QtamXmy0zawm7Z3Qpws4lTM@sollegro.com> References: <20221215190930.Horde.QtamXmy0zawm7Z3Qpws4lTM@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 10:14 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > What nuclear waste is there in laser-primed fusion of deuterium fuel > pellets? > ### The tritium-deuterium reaction they are all working on produces an insane neutron flux, so bad that e.g. the liner of a large continuously running tokamak would need to be exchanged every two years and would contain about 20 Chernobyls worth of radioisotopes. It's insane - the fusion reactor would have to be rebuilt every two years and the liner would be extremely high-level nuclear waste. IMO, the only way fusion could ever become viable is with aneutronic reactions - but this requires even higher temperatures, so probably won't happen anytime soon. --------------------------------------- > > How much of that economic destruction by SWB is due to government > interference and subsidization of solar and wind? And SWB would be far > less useful on Mars or Europa. Whereas fusion is like carrying around > your own shard of a star. > ### Almost 100% of the money spent on fusion was government-provided, including the lab work we are discussing, so there you go. But what matters in the long term is not so much where the research grants came from but rather the comparison of the prices of SWB vs fusion energy. As I said, SWB is *now* cheaper than *running costs* of coal power (excluding capital depreciation). This is the cheapest source of high-quality (i.e. electric) energy ever invented. Fusion on the other hand is maybe 30 years (at current speed of progress) away from barely producing more energy than is used to keep the reactors running (engineering break-even), and forget about the economic break-even. Yes, when we start venturing off planet in a serious way, fusion would be great to have available, so I am all in favor of continued basic research but trying to commercialize it in the next 30 years is a waste of money. ---------------------- > > About 15-20 years ago people were just as skeptical and made the same > arguments about SWB with respect to fossil. When something happens > after 60-straight years of well-funded nothing, it IS unexpected. > ### Yes, this is true and in fact I did point out the economic non-viability of solar about 12 years ago on this very list but the price of solar went down by 85% since then, so now solar actually does make sense. However, the situation is different if you apply the same reasoning to fusion - while solar was a factor of 10 away from economic viability, fusion is a factor of ??? 1000? 10,000? away from being economically viable and at current rates of progress it just won't happen for a long time. ----------------------------------- > > Lithium is good. I agree we should mine more. If deserts tiled with > solar panels is how we achieve the wattage to to ignite our fusion > reactions, then so be it. How much energy is too much, Rafal? Why are > you willing to leave energy on the table? This is a Promethean moment > for all of humanity; it is tangible hope. ### Tony Seba has some great presentations about how much energy we would have after the transition to SWB, you be the judge if it's too much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM2RxWtF4Ds -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 13:13:58 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 13:13:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] How the James Webb telescope is reshaping cosmology Message-ID: How the James Webb telescope?s glances back in time are reshaping cosmology Galaxies might have formed earlier and faster than previously thought. By Lisa Grossman 16 Dec 2022 Quotes: The telescope, also known as JWST, has confirmed extreme distances to four galaxies, one of which sets a record for cosmic remoteness by shining about 13.475 billion years ago. Taken together, the new observations suggest galaxies formed earlier and faster than previously thought. ?We?re entering a new era,? says astronomer Swara Ravindranath of the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore. The previous distance record holder existed between 13.3 billion and 13.4 billion years ago, or about 400 million years after the Big Bang (SN: 1/28/20). JWST confirmed the distance to that galaxy and came back with three more whose light comes from as early as 325 million years after the Big Bang. The galaxies are also surprisingly pristine, chemically speaking, lacking in elements heavier than hydrogen and helium. ?We don?t see that in the present-day universe,? says Ravindranath, who was not involved in the new discovery. It could mean that not many of the galaxies? stars have died in supernova explosions that spread heavy elements around the universe, which suggests the galaxies? original stars were not extremely massive. --------------- And the JWST is just getting started! BillK From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 13:21:52 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 05:21:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <000401d9110d$b6b5e000$2421a000$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005101d91151$5d048220$170d8660$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? >?Spike, your problem is that you only ever criticize one side? Will how many sides have you criticized? I can?t out do you so there is no need for me to try. >? That makes you look like a hypocrite? Compared to? who? >?and it is hard to take you seriously on a lot of issues? OK so don?t take me seriously on a lot of issues, for really I only issue have one that I care much about. All this culture war stuff to me doesn?t matter compared to the world of hurt the USA is facing when we finally realize we really do hafta pay the bill for all this money we are printing, that printing money isn?t printing wealth. When we get to that realization, we find out that only a fraction of this country is working, and there aren?t enough of them to pay the debt. No one in government today has offered us a plausible non-horrifying scenario on what happens then. The rest of this all just noise. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 13:48:12 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 05:48:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <000401d9110d$b6b5e000$2421a000$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008001d91155$0b15ca10$21415e30$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat ? Cc: Rafal Smigrodzki >?### Yeah, and that SNL appearance was cringe, too. Elon is aspy, no question about it? >?That's why I do support Elon, cringe and all?Rafal Ja, but none of that cringe business matters Rafal. It doesn?t matter if Elon is an asshole, doesn?t matter what kind of soda he drinks. This is a rush to save what I think is worth saving. I can see the value of Twitter?s continued existence in principle: huge audience, plenty of detractors, automated open moderation (so we can copy the moderation software and use it here) and so forth. In order to save that company it will take someone who has a lot of business talent and just does what he thinks needs to happen. Aspergers people can be that way: they understand the line of the song which goes ??ya can?t please everyone, so ya got to please yourself?? Saving Twitter requires drastic action. It really does require an Aspy with hundreds of billions of dollars. How many of those do we have? Failing that, let?s start a GoFundMe, or better yet start a GoFundthehellouttaME because I will need a loooootta lotta money to buy that outfit. Moving the Twitter HQ out to Lodi seems like a good move, and one which I hope Elon makes: plenty of room out there, low priced real estate, plenty of current employees who will refuse to go, which means fewer layoffs. Each quitter is a saved job for someone else. Many of the quitters would likely be high-end salary types, which could save several jobs. For some of those employees (the ones who stay) that move would be a dream: the rank and file employees can own a home, something few could do in San Francisco. Furthermore? Lodi could really use a high-value facelift. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 14:02:19 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 06:02:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] How the James Webb telescope is reshaping cosmology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008e01d91157$03744a00$0a5cde00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... Subject: [ExI] How the James Webb telescope is reshaping cosmology How the James Webb telescope?s glances back in time are reshaping cosmology Galaxies might have formed earlier and faster than previously thought. By Lisa Grossman 16 Dec 2022 ... --------------- And the JWST is just getting started! BillK _______________________________________________ Thx BillK. The astronomy world has been buzzing about this. I can't get my head around it. I don't understand how galaxies could have formed that quickly, or why they woulda, for that would suggest a nonuniformity in density which isn't explained well by the current standard big bang/inflation model. I haven't been able to understand why there would be any non-uniformity at all. But then we received that astonishing result from COBE in the 1990s which proved to us the anisotropy is real. Later instruments verified it in greater resolution. It's been 30 years and I still don't understand why that anisotropy is there or how it formed. spike From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 15:10:23 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 15:10:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] How the James Webb telescope is reshaping cosmology In-Reply-To: <008e01d91157$03744a00$0a5cde00$@rainier66.com> References: <008e01d91157$03744a00$0a5cde00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 14:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Thx BillK. The astronomy world has been buzzing about this. I can't get my head around it. I don't understand how galaxies could have formed that quickly, or why they woulda, for that would suggest a nonuniformity in density which isn't explained well by the current standard big bang/inflation model. I haven't been able to understand why there would be any non-uniformity at all. > > But then we received that astonishing result from COBE in the 1990s which proved to us the anisotropy is real. Later instruments verified it in greater resolution. It's been 30 years and I still don't understand why that anisotropy is there or how it formed. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Oh, you should just have asked! :) To convince yourself you will need to do a bit of reading, but the summary is - The quantum fluctuations that occur during inflation get stretched across the Universe and when inflation ends, they become density fluctuations. This leads, over time, to the large-scale structure in the Universe today, as well as the fluctuations in temperature observed in the CMB. Additionally, gravitational wave imperfections and angular momentum fluctuations are created as well, but the latter decay as the Universe expands. --------- You will immediately reply 'What quantum fluctuations?' - That's where the further reading comes in. :) Search for 'primordial fluctuations' or 'early density fluctuations'. should help. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 15:46:42 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 07:46:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] How the James Webb telescope is reshaping cosmology In-Reply-To: References: <008e01d91157$03744a00$0a5cde00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b701d91165$98f25e10$cad71a30$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... > _______________________________________________ >...Oh, you should just have asked! :) >...To convince yourself you will need to do a bit of reading, but the summary is - >...The quantum fluctuations that occur during inflation get stretched across the Universe and when inflation ends, they become density fluctuations... BillK Ja so I hear. But by my erroneous understanding, the universe at the first nanosecond would be perfectly uniform, hyperspherical. Bur if any asymmetry appears later, it would need to exist somehow in that first nanosecond, and if so the symmetry woulda had to be broken at half a nanosecond and a quarter of a ns and so on, all the way back to the start, but that leads to just more mind-boggling questions. So... with that quantum fluctuation notion, we are forced to imagine something analogous to a particle-antiparticle pair which forms from the kind of quantum notion we still see today, but with a critical difference: the particle-antiparticle pair didn't recombine for some reason, or... they did something back then that they cannot do now: they somehow created a lasting visible impact on the universe in the very short time they existed. I get where some kind of quantum fluctuation could cause anisotropy, but it requires something we think doesn't happen now: particle-antiparticle pair formation where they somehow stay in existence. But... How did they do that? How did the first symmetry-breaking event, whatever it was, how did that happen? Our current theory doesn't really explain it, but rather just kinda describes what must have happened with that blanket look-the-other-way phrase "...quantum fluctuations that occur..." They occur? Can we be a bit more specific on what that? Answer: not yet, we still don't know. Clearly something did somehow. But what and how? spike From john at ziaspace.com Fri Dec 16 16:12:57 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 16:12:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <007901d9110a$f286b580$d7942080$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <007901d9110a$f286b580$d7942080$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > This source says Twitter still isn't generating enough revenue to cover its > expenses. Until it does, I would agree with this writer, who suggests that > it risks bankruptcy: > > https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/twitter-bankruptcy-possi > ble-if-cash-burn-doesn-t-stop-musk-tells-employees-122111100134_1.html Have you no understanding of cause and effect? "While the buyout has removed Twitter from the scrutiny of public markets, Musk loaded the company with almost $13 billion of debt thats now in the hands of seven Wall Street banks that have been unable to offload it to investors." Musk buys Twitter. Musk loads Twitter with $13 billion of debt. Musk says Twitter could go bankrupt. Yet you want to pretend that bankrupcy pre-Musk is somehow real. Do you really want to die on the hill of assuming other people are stupid enough to believe this that you'll just keep spouting it? Or are you REALLY that much of a fanboi that you're happy to believe whatever Elon says, then you're happy to refuse to research anything else? >> ...Sigh. We have an implicit agreement when we write that the context would > either be clear, or we'd clarify. "in there" refers to what? To my message? > To Twitter? > > We have no objective way to determine if a person fits these descriptions. > Can you give us a way or an equation with actual variables or some way > software can determine if a person fits these categories? Subjective > judgment on these things are what led to Twitter in a power dive towards > bankruptcy, which even now is not clear can be avoided. Twitter was drawing > on cash reserves just to make regular payroll and pay the rent, with no > viable plan for recovery. That isn't how businesses work. First, you didn't answer the question. Second, you're basically saying you're too dumb to understand that there's a spectrum between subjectivity and objectivity, or you think we're so dumb that we believe that it's all either subjective or objective, and nothing in between. I'm losing respect for you because you're choosing to play dumb. Furthermore, where's the tiniest inkling of data showing that Twitter was on its way to bankrupcy - and I can't believe I have to write this - THAT DOESN'T COME FROM ELON? > There is no objective definition of "hateful behavior." But it is clear > enough to me that eventually content moderation will need objective > measures, which can be coded into software. You're making things up. There is no chance of anything objective coming out of a manchild who gets upset about something new every day. He's constantly making my point: blocking searches for telegram, marking links to Mastodon sites as "malicious", et cetera. We have words that don't have specific, precise definitions. Pretending that the lack of definitions means that we can't possibly know what someone means is... well, again, playing dumb. >> ...There are MANY examples of Elon platforming right wingers, anti-Semites, > white supremacists... > > That is a perfect example of the problem John. It makes it sound like you > wish to equate right wingers with anti-Semites, white supremacists. OK so > what if... the right wing equates left wingers with all that? Is that OK > too? Or is it OK for the one wing and not the other? If we take you at your word, Spike, you're too naive to 1) have enough basic reading comprehension to know that when you make an inclusive list, that list doesn't suggest that all of the elements are equated, 2) that you'd rather play dumb and ask rhetorical questions than actually have a real discussion. See? You're treating us like children. You're arguing completely in bad faith. I'm losing respect because you CONTINUE to do this. We're not children here, and we don't believe you when you try to play dumb and act like you don't know what we're talking about. >> ...I didn't ask if you cared. I simply pointed out the fact that he is an > asshole, and as an asshole, he can't be trusted to not do asshole things... > > I see, and can you show us an equation or objective measure to determine if > a person is an asshole? If so, we can write software to determine if it is > so, and we don't need to pay people to make that determination. Where I am > going with this is that we cannot trust subjective measures to do content > moderation. That is inherently unfair. You're an adult, Spike. The fact that you CHOOSE to act like this and treat us like this really disappoints me. Elon is an asshole. I could choose different words, just like I could qualify this each and every time. However, if one were to read everything I've written in this thread about Elon, one would know what I mean, yet you think you have a "gotcha" by playing dumb. You keep bringing up moderation. You make these really silly, naive attempts to equate behaviors with moderation, yet you haven't ONCE addressed the whole point I'm making here: Moderation on Twitter will never be fair, open, objective, consistent, whatever (pick one or more - I am not saying they're the same thing, or can you tell that here, but not earlier?) so long as a person who is an asshole and who gets butthurt about the tiniest things is running the show and is constantly screwing with things. But instead you suggest that moderation will somehow be better on Twitter because of Elon, yet you haven't given the slightest, tiniest shred of evidence to support that, and you don't address the multitude of examples of behavior that show the precise opposite. > I would consider calling someone an asshole an ad hominem attack, which is > poor form indeed. Perhaps you would like to rephrase it John? No. Look up "ad hominem". I'm asserting that BECAUSE he's an asshole, Twitter has become and will continue to become worse. The "attack" is 100% relevant to the assertion, not tangential or unrelated. After you look up "ad hominem", perhaps you would like to rephrase your statement? >> ...So you advocate for the openness of Twitter? Then explain this: > https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1603551884748460034 > > Ben Collins explains that Rupar was tweeting links to Twitter's competitor. > I don't think Twitter wants to advertise for its own competitors. Do you? So you want to assert that Twitter will become more open, yet you think that banning journalists because they mention a site that shares public information about private jets' whereabouts is perfectly fine. But, better than that, because you didn't know this was about the jet tracking info, you think that it's fine to BAN journalists because they might've mentioned Twitter's competitors? Do you even hear yourself, Spike? How can anyone take you seriously when you say you consider a site which bans journalists using rules nobody even knows to be a beacon of openness? The cognitive dissonance is astounding. I asked you nicely to stop treating us as children, yet you haven't. These discussions are, in my opinion, an excellent example of where things go wrong these days. You don't care about the negative impact of your idol because you are full-on fanboi, and you're willing to alienate people by playing dumb and pretending to not understand how discourse works. Somehow defending your idol with childish responses is more important than your respect for your peers. It's not a nice thing to see, Spike. John From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 16:26:05 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 16:26:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] How the James Webb telescope is reshaping cosmology In-Reply-To: <00b701d91165$98f25e10$cad71a30$@rainier66.com> References: <008e01d91157$03744a00$0a5cde00$@rainier66.com> <00b701d91165$98f25e10$cad71a30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 15:46, wrote: > > Ja so I hear. But by my erroneous understanding, the universe at the first > nanosecond would be perfectly uniform, hyperspherical. Bur if any asymmetry > appears later, it would need to exist somehow in that first nanosecond, and > if so the symmetry woulda had to be broken at half a nanosecond and a > quarter of a ns and so on, all the way back to the start, but that leads to > just more mind-boggling questions. > > So... with that quantum fluctuation notion, we are forced to imagine > something analogous to a particle-antiparticle pair which forms from the > kind of quantum notion we still see today, but with a critical difference: > the particle-antiparticle pair didn't recombine for some reason, or... they > did something back then that they cannot do now: they somehow created a > lasting visible impact on the universe in the very short time they existed. > > I get where some kind of quantum fluctuation could cause anisotropy, but it > requires something we think doesn't happen now: particle-antiparticle pair > formation where they somehow stay in existence. > > But... How did they do that? How did the first symmetry-breaking event, > whatever it was, how did that happen? Our current theory doesn't really > explain it, but rather just kinda describes what must have happened with > that blanket look-the-other-way phrase "...quantum fluctuations that > occur..." They occur? Can we be a bit more specific on what that? Answer: > not yet, we still don't know. Clearly something did somehow. But what and > how? > > spike -------------------------------------------- The primordial fluctuations happened during the period of the initial inflation of the universe. Inflation then stopped and doesn't happen now. We can never know what happened during the universe inflation period. (I wasn't there to watch it either). This is linked to the question of why is there something rather than nothing? If the creation of matter and antimatter was equal, why didn't they cancel each other out completely? The answer must be that in our universe, creation was slightly unequal and our universe was the result. That slight inequality from quantum indeterminacy during inflation created our universe. BillK From john at ziaspace.com Fri Dec 16 16:33:50 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 16:33:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >> white supremacists. > > ### This term used unironically, as you did, is a rather nasty racist slur, > which, regrettably, is quite popular among leftoids. > > You should not use racist slurs. Are you serious? I can't even imagine path in broken thinking that leads to this. So let's see... You think it's racist to use a common term that refers to "a person who believes that the white race is inherently superior to other races and that white people should have control over people of other races", as taken from Merriam Webster? So because of, perhaps, the negative connontation associated with the term, I should use some other term? Like what? How would you refer to white supremacists? Yet you refer to certain people as "leftoids", as though the negative connotation doesn't or shouldn't matter there. And you feel so strongly about this, you think it's your place to tell other people what do to and what not to do? Please help me understand how white supremacists are being hurt here. John From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 18:15:34 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 10:15:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <007901d9110a$f286b580$d7942080$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003701d9117a$6496ff80$2dc4fe80$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat ubject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? > This source says Twitter still isn't generating enough revenue to > cover its expenses... >...Have you no understanding of cause and effect? Sure do John. Cause: Twitter was operating in absurdly expensive office space and grossly overstaffed, resulting in its losing money so fast the end was clearly in sight. Effect: stockholders bailed when given the first opportunity. Reasoning: Twitter's cash reserves were about 3.6 billion so lets round up to 4 billion. Musk bought out all the stockholders at 55 bucks a share for a total of 44 billion dollars, so I am calculating he bought about 800 million shares. What happens when stockholders realize Jack can't pull out of the nosedive, so they do the same estimate I just did and realize the cash reserves are really all that this company is worth (that furniture wouldn't amount to more than a few million at best (so the value of a failing Twitter was a little bit of furniture and the cash reserves) so... they concluded, as I did, that the real value of that stock was heading to about 5 bucks a share. John, is there another way to look at it? Do share. Personality traits of the CEOs and board are completely irrelevant to that calculation. Along comes a rich guy offering 55 bucks a share but only if he can buy all of it and make it a private company. Shareholders were faced with a choice: get 55 bucks a share from an evil rich capitalist, or eventually end up with 5 bucks a share. The board estimated Jack's chances of pulling out of that dive, and...naturally... the board voted to sell. John or anyone else here, would you have done otherwise had you been a Twitter board member? >... Do you really want to die on the hill of I am not dying on any hills with that perfectly obvious observation. I am not even getting the sniffles up here. I feel fine on this hill. No one has even posted a death threat. So no, but thanks for your concern. Would anyone here have done any differently had you been on Twitter's board of directors? Had you been Jack, what would you have done differently please? Same here. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 18:34:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 10:34:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <003701d9117a$6496ff80$2dc4fe80$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <007901d9110a$f286b580$d7942080$@rainier66.com> <003701d9117a$6496ff80$2dc4fe80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005801d9117d$10802cc0$31808640$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...Have you no understanding of cause and effect? >...Sure do John. Cause: Twitter was operating in absurdly expensive office space and grossly overstaffed, resulting in its losing money so fast the end was clearly in sight. >...Effect: stockholders bailed when given the first opportunity.... spike I am struggling to imagine what it must have been like in those Twitter board of directors meetings, oh mercy. I can imagine the directors looking at that balance sheet and asking: Jack, please tell us you have some kind of plan here buddy. What are you doing for us Jack? Throw us a bone Jack... That sorta thing, while the sweat pours off this guy's head because he doesn't have a clue how to turn this around without laying off most of the staff and moving HQ about 100 miles east where costs are way lower. Then... Musk came along offering to buy the mess. Heh. Those board members must be still having nightmares, PTSD, they are back in that board room hammering Jack Dorsey on how he plans to save their fortune from becoming about a tenth the size it was. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 19:05:12 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 11:05:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <005801d9117d$10802cc0$31808640$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <007901d9110a$f286b580$d7942080$@rainier66.com> <003701d9117a$6496ff80$2dc4fe80$@rainier66.com> <005801d9117d$10802cc0$31808640$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007d01d91181$53c71670$fb554350$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...Effect: stockholders bailed when given the first opportunity.... >spike Something occurred to me while I was writing about Twitter. I am really dealing with an orthogonal axis from what most people are posting about, the whole culture war stuff that I see as irrelevant to the business aspect of reviving a failing company. It doesn't matter whose politics are where on the board and CEO if the company is accelerating toward bankruptcy at a rate already approaching c. Either way it is just as gone afterwards. What I realized is that the mainstream media companies must be experiencing something pretty similar to what Twitter1.0 was seeing, for many of the same reasons. They are trying to sell something that can be had for free. We don't really need them anymore. Advertisers must recognize this too: if one can get all the news one can consume, and tune it to get that which is most relevant, and all that requires no purchases, why do we need legacy media at all? How can the legacy media companies pay all those people, many of them expensive, when the internet offers news free? spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 19:38:49 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 13:38:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <007d01d91181$53c71670$fb554350$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <007901d9110a$f286b580$d7942080$@rainier66.com> <003701d9117a$6496ff80$2dc4fe80$@rainier66.com> <005801d9117d$10802cc0$31808640$@rainier66.com> <007d01d91181$53c71670$fb554350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How can the legacy media companies pay all those people, many of them expensive, when the internet offers news free? spike People are suspicious of free things. In one study, aides walked up to people on the street and gave them $5 bills. Some would not take them. Others seeing what happened, walked away from the psy.aide. Also - people will not respect things that are free. "You get what you pay for" is believed by many. The more you pay the better it must be. bill w On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: spike at rainier66.com > ... > > >...Effect: stockholders bailed when given the first opportunity.... > >spike > > > Something occurred to me while I was writing about Twitter. I am really > dealing with an orthogonal axis from what most people are posting about, > the > whole culture war stuff that I see as irrelevant to the business aspect of > reviving a failing company. It doesn't matter whose politics are where on > the board and CEO if the company is accelerating toward bankruptcy at a > rate > already approaching c. Either way it is just as gone afterwards. > > What I realized is that the mainstream media companies must be experiencing > something pretty similar to what Twitter1.0 was seeing, for many of the > same > reasons. They are trying to sell something that can be had for free. We > don't really need them anymore. Advertisers must recognize this too: if > one > can get all the news one can consume, and tune it to get that which is most > relevant, and all that requires no purchases, why do we need legacy media > at > all? How can the legacy media companies pay all those people, many of them > expensive, when the internet offers news free? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 16 20:49:32 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 12:49:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <007901d9110a$f286b580$d7942080$@rainier66.com> <003701d9117a$6496ff80$2dc4fe80$@rainier66.com> <005801d9117d$10802cc0$31808640$@rainier66.com> <007d01d91181$53c71670$fb554350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003301d9118f$e7109740$b531c5c0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? How can the legacy media companies pay all those people, many of them expensive, when the internet offers news free? spike >?People are suspicious of free things? Excellent! They should be. That is even better with free news. Make them inherently skeptical. When people buy news, they put too much trust in it. That didn?t work out too well for a lot of legacy news sources. >?Also - people will not respect things that are free? Good. They shouldn?t. >? The more you pay the better it must be. bill w For news, we want lots of variety, conflicting stories. Then we get to decide which was right. Regarding the news business, my favorite speech of all time was this one, Danny Devito, playing the greedy ruthless asshole in Other People?s Money: https://youtu.be/62kxPyNZF3Q It?s over 30 years old, but that message rings so true today. It is applicable to the news business. My speculation is that legacy news agencies must be suffering for the same reasons that Twitter1.0 crashed (or was crashing depending on how you look at it.) News can be crowd-sourced and crowds working free can do a better job than a few overworked professionals. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 21:54:45 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 15:54:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? In-Reply-To: <003301d9118f$e7109740$b531c5c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001801d90eab$734357d0$59ca0770$@rainier66.com> <003501d90f4c$1e4a3090$5ade91b0$@rainier66.com> <004001d91090$5abc86a0$103593e0$@rainier66.com> <006d01d91097$1b227750$516765f0$@rainier66.com> <013701d910da$bfe151b0$3fa3f510$@rainier66.com> <000601d910f7$02130df0$063929d0$@rainier66.com> <007901d9110a$f286b580$d7942080$@rainier66.com> <003701d9117a$6496ff80$2dc4fe80$@rainier66.com> <005801d9117d$10802cc0$31808640$@rainier66.com> <007d01d91181$53c71670$fb554350$@rainier66.com> <003301d9118f$e7109740$b531c5c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: fine actor bill w On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] what would any of us have done differently? > > > > How can the legacy media companies pay all those people, many of them > expensive, when the internet offers news free? spike > > > > >?People are suspicious of free things? > > > > Excellent! They should be. That is even better with free news. Make > them inherently skeptical. When people buy news, they put too much trust > in it. That didn?t work out too well for a lot of legacy news sources. > > > > >?Also - people will not respect things that are free? > > > > Good. They shouldn?t. > > > > >? The more you pay the better it must be. bill w > > > > For news, we want lots of variety, conflicting stories. Then we get to > decide which was right. > > > > Regarding the news business, my favorite speech of all time was this one, > Danny Devito, playing the greedy ruthless asshole in Other People?s Money: > > > > https://youtu.be/62kxPyNZF3Q > > > > It?s over 30 years old, but that message rings so true today. It is > applicable to the news business. > > > > My speculation is that legacy news agencies must be suffering for the same > reasons that Twitter1.0 crashed (or was crashing depending on how you look > at it.) News can be crowd-sourced and crowds working free can do a better > job than a few overworked professionals. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 22:38:28 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 14:38:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] All the Art We Need for the Future In-Reply-To: <4E3C1BD4-C63A-49E0-8145-3656D65B819A@taramayastales.com> References: <4E3C1BD4-C63A-49E0-8145-3656D65B819A@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 9:48 AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Now, I expect most on this list might find this particular example > ridiculous, but my point is that humans can always generate more work for > themselves, especially in fun things like the arts, so why anyone is > worried about being put out of work (permanently, at least) by robots, is a > mystery to me. > It is because they are insufficiently imaginative. Either they can not imagine doing anything but the job they are doing right now - and thus not transitioning into art or anything else - or, if they do grasp that there will be jobs for artists, they do not believe themselves capable enough of anything artistic (another failure of imagination) to earn a living at. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 22:47:04 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 14:47:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI harming humanity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 4:37 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > AI progress is going to profoundly affect our civilisation. > Even before we reach the AGI Singularity > Indeed, and teaching methods might best adapt accordingly. For example: an English teacher could give students a set of short papers, one written by a human telling the truth, one written by a human in typical corporate/political cherry-picking style, and multiple written by AI. The test is not to see which one the humans wrote but instead which one is correct - which is something that students can hopefully see will be relevant to their adult lives. "Which way do you vote as an ordinary citizen? Let's say you get elected to a city council, so yours is one of maybe five or three votes - same skill, more important, which way do you vote? Or if you're on a jury, and asked to see which one of these isn't fraudulent, which way do you vote? Learn how to recognize BS and do your own critical thinking, because you're going to have to." It's like the old argument against using calculators in math class. Sure, you will practically always have calculators available - but they're only as reliable as the data put into them. Minor errors might slip by but you need to know the basics of how they work so you can recognize when things are going very wrong. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gordon.swobe at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 06:56:42 2022 From: gordon.swobe at gmail.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2022 23:56:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life Message-ID: https://decrypt.co/117477/hal-finney-twitter-just-came-back-life -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From col.hales at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 09:14:03 2022 From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 20:14:03 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. I remember Hal back in the early noughties on EXI in the heyday. Sorry to hear he's gone. On Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 5:58 PM Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > https://decrypt.co/117477/hal-finney-twitter-just-came-back-life > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 09:18:47 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 10:18:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's unclear if that Tweet has been really posted by Fran. On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 10:15 AM Colin Hales via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Wow. I remember Hal back in the early noughties on EXI in the heyday. > Sorry to hear he's gone. > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 5:58 PM Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> https://decrypt.co/117477/hal-finney-twitter-just-came-back-life >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 17 15:11:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 07:11:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> Cool! Gordon weren?t you one of the dozen or so on that cryptocurrency sublist we had in about 1998? I can think of Mike Butler and Robert Bradbury. I haven?t heard from Mike in probably 15 years and Robert passed in 2011 (doesn?t that blow your mind?) Hal of course was on that, he was the central character. That man knew everything. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, 16 December, 2022 10:57 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Gordon Swobe Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life https://decrypt.co/117477/hal-finney-twitter-just-came-back-life -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gordon.swobe at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 19:47:01 2022 From: gordon.swobe at gmail.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 12:47:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> References: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 8:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > > > Gordon weren?t you one of the dozen or so on that cryptocurrency sublist > we had in about 1998? > Hi spike. I don?t recall being on that sublist but I do recall meeting Hal on this list, which is why I posted. It was here that I first heard of bitcoin. I did not take it seriously until it rallied in response to the Cyprus banking crisis on 2013. ?Wow,? I thought. ?Bitcoin is doing exactly what they said it would do!? It was at about $100 at the time. My life has never been the same. I?ve spent many years moderating and participating in cryptocurrency related discussion groups. > > > I can think of Mike Butler and Robert Bradbury. I haven?t heard from Mike > in probably 15 years and Robert passed in 2011 > I don?t remember Mike but I have good memories of Robert. Sorry to hear he passed. I?ve been trying to disentangle myself from Twitter and facebook to spend more time here. (doesn?t that blow your mind?) > It sure does. What also blows my mind is that Exi is still mostly the same group it was way back when. Mostly the same names! This is a special group of people. -gts > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Friday, 16 December, 2022 10:57 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Gordon Swobe > *Subject:* [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life > > > > https://decrypt.co/117477/hal-finney-twitter-just-came-back-life > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 21:26:10 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 16:26:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Was anyone here on the zero state list? I know there was some overlap between here and there; we talked a lot about bitcoin over there around 2012 On Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 2:48 PM Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 8:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote > >> >> >> Gordon weren?t you one of the dozen or so on that cryptocurrency sublist >> we had in about 1998? >> > > Hi spike. I don?t recall being on that sublist but I do recall meeting Hal > on this list, which is why I posted. > > It was here that I first heard of bitcoin. I did not take it seriously > until it rallied in response to the Cyprus banking crisis on 2013. ?Wow,? I > thought. ?Bitcoin is doing exactly what they said it would do!? It was at > about $100 at the time. My life has never been the same. I?ve spent many > years moderating and participating in cryptocurrency related discussion > groups. > >> >> >> I can think of Mike Butler and Robert Bradbury. I haven?t heard from >> Mike in probably 15 years and Robert passed in 2011 >> > I don?t remember Mike but I have good memories of Robert. Sorry to hear he > passed. > > I?ve been trying to disentangle myself from Twitter and facebook to spend > more time here. > > (doesn?t that blow your mind?) >> > > It sure does. What also blows my mind is that Exi is still mostly the same > group it was way back when. Mostly the same names! This is a special group > of people. > > -gts > >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat >> *Sent:* Friday, 16 December, 2022 10:57 PM >> *To:* ExI chat list >> *Cc:* Gordon Swobe >> *Subject:* [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life >> >> >> >> https://decrypt.co/117477/hal-finney-twitter-just-came-back-life >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Dec 18 03:34:33 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 19:34:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 231, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20221217193433.Horde.Fupm9_CQGzec5aArOzFNLWt@sollegro.com> Quoting Will Steinberg: > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 16:26:10 -0500 > From: Will Steinberg > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Was anyone here on the zero state list? I know there was some overlap > between here and there; we talked a lot about bitcoin over there around 2012. Yes, I was. But then again, you and seem to have wound up on at least 3 of the same splinter lists. ;) Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Sun Dec 18 03:43:04 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 19:43:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Best scripting language for replying to digests? Message-ID: <20221217194304.Horde.9vYkidnSzTPYl0L3wwNsIDg@sollegro.com> I am curious what the best scripting language is to parse out the actual subject from mailing list digests so as to have meaningful subject headings? I am tired of forgeting to specify the subject line; and it seems a trivial programming issue. Thanks, Stuart LaForge From gadersd at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 03:48:18 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 22:48:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Best scripting language for replying to digests? In-Reply-To: <20221217194304.Horde.9vYkidnSzTPYl0L3wwNsIDg@sollegro.com> References: <20221217194304.Horde.9vYkidnSzTPYl0L3wwNsIDg@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <88003E0B-AB7C-4CD0-B5B2-E8D3D62F325D@gmail.com> Python is one of the most user-friendly and popular scripting languages. It?s relatively easy to learn so I would recommend it. > On Dec 17, 2022, at 10:43 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I am curious what the best scripting language is to parse out the actual subject from mailing list digests so as to have meaningful subject headings? I am tired of forgeting to specify the subject line; and it seems a trivial programming issue. > > Thanks, > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From snapbag at proton.me Sun Dec 18 04:08:43 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 04:08:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Best scripting language for replying to digests? In-Reply-To: <20221217194304.Horde.9vYkidnSzTPYl0L3wwNsIDg@sollegro.com> References: <20221217194304.Horde.9vYkidnSzTPYl0L3wwNsIDg@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 10:43 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > I am curious what the best scripting language is to parse out the > actual subject from mailing list digests so as to have meaningful > subject headings? I am tired of forgeting to specify the subject line; > and it seems a trivial programming issue. The one you know the best. :-) Honestly, I'm not sure what problem digests solve that can't be better handled some other way. If you don't want to be bothered by a steady stream of message notifications, filter list messages into their own folder and disable notifications for it. Receiving individual messages also makes it easier to filter out messages you don't want to see and to sort messages and replies in a structure that's more natural than simple chronological order. There are mail agents like Mutt that can treat a digest like a folder so you can reply to individual messages normally. I don't know of a GUI mail agent that does that, though. -Dave From atymes at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 04:12:05 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 20:12:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Best scripting language for replying to digests? In-Reply-To: <20221217194304.Horde.9vYkidnSzTPYl0L3wwNsIDg@sollegro.com> References: <20221217194304.Horde.9vYkidnSzTPYl0L3wwNsIDg@sollegro.com> Message-ID: Perl used to be the primary one for text parsing, but these days Python seems more popular. That said, if you know one that'll do the task and this is just for your benefit, never to be maintained by others, use that one. On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 7:44 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I am curious what the best scripting language is to parse out the > actual subject from mailing list digests so as to have meaningful > subject headings? I am tired of forgeting to specify the subject line; > and it seems a trivial programming issue. > > Thanks, > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 18 07:35:25 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 23:35:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008e01d912b3$4c03be60$e40b3b20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat >>?Gordon weren?t you one of the dozen or so on that cryptocurrency sublist we had in about 1998? >?Hi spike. I don?t recall being on that sublist but I do recall meeting Hal on this list, which is why I posted?. Gordon if anyone has an archive of that sublist, that contains some valuable documentation. It is the likely historical roots of cryptocurrency, where Hal and several others were debating the value of numbers and the structure of how to create a currency based on the notion of control of quantity. I could find in there my reasoning for why I never bought into cryptocurrency: I argued that it would be impossible to maintain strict quantity control because any yahoo could start their own crypto. This would result in hundreds or thousands of competing currencies, breaking the quantity control model. So? I didn?t buy. So? I didn?t get rich. Still that archive of those dozen or so posters, a subset of ExI at the time, from about 1998 to about 2000, is extremely valuable historical documentation. I lost my email archives twice since 2000, so I don?t have it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 18 08:00:34 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 00:00:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c301d912b6$cf5285a0$6df790e0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life >?Was anyone here on the zero state list? I know there was some overlap between here and there; we talked a lot about bitcoin over there around 2012 Mike Lorrey mighta been on that. I passed that one up being busy with fatherhood at the time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gordon.swobe at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 09:04:48 2022 From: gordon.swobe at gmail.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 02:04:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: <008e01d912b3$4c03be60$e40b3b20$@rainier66.com> References: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> <008e01d912b3$4c03be60$e40b3b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 12:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: I argued that it would be impossible to maintain strict quantity control > because any yahoo could start their own crypto. This would result in > hundreds or thousands of competing currencies, breaking the quantity > control model. So? I didn?t buy. So? I didn?t get rich. > You were right, though! It's amazing that anyone got rich. :) -gts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 09:17:15 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 01:17:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> <008e01d912b3$4c03be60$e40b3b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yeah, And anybody can build cars, so Ferraris are worthless. The same talk over and over again... There is a reason BTC is worth 16 K and the other coins at least 10x less. Giovanni On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 1:06 AM Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 12:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I argued that it would be impossible to maintain strict quantity control >> because any yahoo could start their own crypto. This would result in >> hundreds or thousands of competing currencies, breaking the quantity >> control model. So? I didn?t buy. So? I didn?t get rich. >> > > You were right, though! It's amazing that anyone got rich. :) > > -gts > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sun Dec 18 15:15:23 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 15:15:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: <008e01d912b3$4c03be60$e40b3b20$@rainier66.com> References: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> <008e01d912b3$4c03be60$e40b3b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'm getting a lot of interest from documentary makers about Hal Finney, cryptocurrency, and often the cryonics connection. There's even a possible film in the works that starts with Hal in the early Bitcoin days, through the time of his cryopreservation, and onto into the future when he is revived. If someone does have the archive of that sublist, it would be a tremendous source of information for documentarians. It would be wonderful if we could host it. --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of spike jones via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2022 12:35 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat >>?Gordon weren?t you one of the dozen or so on that cryptocurrency sublist we had in about 1998? >?Hi spike. I don?t recall being on that sublist but I do recall meeting Hal on this list, which is why I posted?. Gordon if anyone has an archive of that sublist, that contains some valuable documentation. It is the likely historical roots of cryptocurrency, where Hal and several others were debating the value of numbers and the structure of how to create a currency based on the notion of control of quantity. I could find in there my reasoning for why I never bought into cryptocurrency: I argued that it would be impossible to maintain strict quantity control because any yahoo could start their own crypto. This would result in hundreds or thousands of competing currencies, breaking the quantity control model. So? I didn?t buy. So? I didn?t get rich. Still that archive of those dozen or so posters, a subset of ExI at the time, from about 1998 to about 2000, is extremely valuable historical documentation. I lost my email archives twice since 2000, so I don?t have it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sun Dec 18 15:20:57 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 15:20:57 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Colin: Hal isn't really gone, he's "just resting", to quote my favorite comedians. Hal was cryopreserved in 2014. The conditions were good -- he was relocated to a Scottsdale hospice so the team could be at the bedside and start without delay. I think there's a good chance we will see him again -- at least, those of us who are around some decades from now. [http://134.209.46.227/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/hal-finney.jpg] Alcor Patient Profile Hal Finney - Alcor www.alcor.org There's a good bio here, although it misses out his extropy connection: Alcor Patient Profile Hal Finney - Alcor ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of Colin Hales via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2022 2:14 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Colin Hales Subject: Re: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life Wow. I remember Hal back in the early noughties on EXI in the heyday. Sorry to hear he's gone. On Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 5:58 PM Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat > wrote: https://decrypt.co/117477/hal-finney-twitter-just-came-back-life _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 18 16:09:02 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 08:09:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Best scripting language for replying to digests? In-Reply-To: References: <20221217194304.Horde.9vYkidnSzTPYl0L3wwNsIDg@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <008201d912fb$0c5c3100$25149300$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat ... >..There are mail agents like Mutt that can treat a digest like a folder so you can reply to individual messages normally. I don't know of a GUI mail agent that does that, though. -Dave _______________________________________________ The notion of digests made sense at one time when having 70 to 100 ExI posts in one day was common. There were times in about the mid 90s when I thought it was great stuff but just didn't have time to read it all, and that was when I wasn't even posting myself, just reading. That's why we formed so many specialized sub-groups: It was all I could do to keep up with that in those busy years of my misspent youth. Now the ExI volume is very low. So what good is the digest? spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 18 16:18:01 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 08:18:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> <008e01d912b3$4c03be60$e40b3b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008501d912fc$4da667b0$e8f33710$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life Yeah, And anybody can build cars, so Ferraris are worthless. The same talk over and over again... There is a reason BTC is worth 16 K and the other coins at least 10x less. Giovanni No that is different. If someone built cars which were as fast as the Ferrari and looked as cool, it would cost more (because Farrari has already amortized the manufacturing cost.) The new competitor would be worth more than the Ferrari because it would be more exotic, which is part of why people want the Farros to start with: they just leave a wide trail of cool wherever they go. If someone else set up a competing cryptocurrency with a similar amount of compute time required to get one, it seems its value would be similar, assuming the crypto exchanges will deal in them. So the value is in getting the crypto exchanges to deal. This would depend on one?s security system and the cost of mining one of them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 16:30:07 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 16:30:07 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Best scripting language for replying to digests? In-Reply-To: References: <20221217194304.Horde.9vYkidnSzTPYl0L3wwNsIDg@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Dec 2022 at 04:11, Dave S via extropy-chat wrote: > > Honestly, I'm not sure what problem digests solve that can't be better handled some other way. If you don't want to be bothered by a steady stream of message notifications, filter list messages into their own folder and disable notifications for it. Receiving individual messages also makes it easier to filter out messages you don't want to see and to sort messages and replies in a structure that's more natural than simple chronological order. > > There are mail agents like Mutt that can treat a digest like a folder so you can reply to individual messages normally. I don't know of a GUI mail agent that does that, though. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ That's exactly what I do. A filter to put all Exi posts into their own folder, switch off notifications and read when convenient. And I do the same for other lists and contacts as well. You only need to set up the filters once, then everything is filed neatly from then on. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 18 16:48:20 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 08:48:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life In-Reply-To: References: <004201d91229$de888bb0$9b99a310$@rainier66.com> <008e01d912b3$4c03be60$e40b3b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ab01d91300$89a54de0$9cefe9a0$@rainier66.com> .> On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat . Subject: Re: [ExI] Hal Finney twitter account just came back to life I'm getting a lot of interest from documentary makers about Hal Finney, cryptocurrency, and often the cryonics connection. There's even a possible film in the works that starts with Hal in the early Bitcoin days, through the time of his cryopreservation, and onto into the future when he is revived. If someone does have the archive of that sublist, it would be a tremendous source of information for documentarians. It would be wonderful if we could host it. --Max Max some of that early discussion around the cryptocurrency was on the main ExI list. Hal and I and some others got to talking about the notion of a person discovering a Mersenne prime on prime95, then putting a post on the chat group we had going for that topic, offer to sell it. Then the buyer gets the number and the intermediate residuals, reports it, goes into the record books forever as the discoverer. If the seller claims he really discovered it and sold it, that doesn't go in the record books: it is irrelevant because the other feller announced it first. That discussion led into the notion of an algorithm that takes a long time, finds a special set of numbers, such as discovering by brute force they key to a hash function (Hal knew the hell outta that kind of thing.) Then a prole could sell that key, in a way that is kinda analogous to what Prime95 was doing (and is still doing (with a hash function that nature gave us (and a shortcut that Lucas and Lehmer gave us.))) Some of that discussion is in the main list ExIchat. Search on Prime95 or Mersenne Prime or GIMPS or that kinda stuff, about in the mid to late 90s, maybe as late as 2001 or 2, but it was mostly before Extro4 because that was the meeting where the K Eric and Christine Peterson saved my damn life (deetz available.) spike _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 18 19:14:42 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2022 11:14:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] scooped again Message-ID: <004c01d91314$fc2531f0$f46f95d0$@rainier66.com> In accordance with Spike's Law (by the time I come up with any idea, some other yahoo somewhere has already stolen the idea before I had it (Spike's other law: the yahoo already has it working by now.)) An Aussie professor rigged up a human-impersonating AI to a talking avatar. Clearly this software is good enough to provide artificial companions for the elderly and disabled. She's even drop-dead gorgeous. (91) Leta, GPT-3 AI - World First! - Leta writes a children's book with GPT-3 + DALL-E 2 + Emerson AI - YouTube spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 21:54:37 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 21:54:37 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Electric cars too heavy for old UK multi-storey car parks Message-ID: Weight of electric vehicles could cause ?catastrophic? damage and ?lead to car parks collapsing? 18 Dec 2022 Quotes: Electric cars, which are roughly twice as heavy as standard models, could cause ?catastrophic? damage, according to the British Parking Association (BPA), which wants local authorities to conduct urgent structural surveys. Most of the nation?s 6,000 multi-storey and underground facilities were built according to guidance based on the weight of popular cars of 1976 But Mr Whapples said that the accumulating risks to infrastructure like car parks and bridges remain unacknowledged. ------------- Oops! BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 20 02:25:18 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 18:25:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived Message-ID: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> Dang this guy is good. (94) Gestures + ChatGPT (Synthesia's avatars with new micro-gestures + OpenAI's ChatGPT) - YouTube Thompson points out what we saw: ChatGPT is an ass-kisser, which is great for software, but as we approach Uncanny Valley and we start to think of it as human, we don't want it to be completely polite and obedient. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 20 02:41:36 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 18:41:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <003801d9141a$4ec15aa0$ec440fe0$@rainier66.com> References: <003801d9141a$4ec15aa0$ec440fe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004a01d9141c$95549b10$bffdd130$@rainier66.com> The thing that surprises me the most about all this is that it just arrived one day. It wasn't really much like the computer animation competitions where we watched it get better and better and better each year. This one just showed up one day, a talking avatar good enough to pass as a human companion (even if vaguely annoying for being so ruly.) Puzzling aside: my email program questions my use of the term ruly but I don't see why. We all know the definition of unruly, and the program has no problem at all with that. But what is the opposite? We don't say ununruly so why does it object to the obvious? That term is the best way to describe this talking avatar, ja? Annoyingly ruly he is. On the other hand, this guy is good enough that people could take to considering him an actual human. He could be thought of as a trusted professor or mentor. Then should the software be designed to convince his minions to do bad deeds, the avatar becomes exactly the kind of malicious software that Eliezer Yudkowsky has been sweating for 25 years, except without the actual autonomy. Does anyone here hang out on Less Wrong? Are those guys talking about this? spike From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Monday, 19 December, 2022 6:25 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: it gestures! chatgpt has arrived Dang this guy is good. (94) Gestures + ChatGPT (Synthesia's avatars with new micro-gestures + OpenAI's ChatGPT) - YouTube Thompson points out what we saw: ChatGPT is an ass-kisser, which is great for software, but as we approach Uncanny Valley and we start to think of it as human, we don't want it to be completely polite and obedient. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4922 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 20 04:19:06 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 20:19:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Electric cars too heavy for old UK multi-storey car parks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007f01d9142a$340c3ee0$9c24bca0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... >>...Weight of electric vehicles could cause ?catastrophic? damage and ?lead to car parks collapsing? 18 Dec 2022 https://publicnewstime.com/banking/weight-of-electric-vehicles-could-cause-catastrophic-damage-and-lead-to-car-parks-collapsing/ ... >>...But Mr Whapples said that the accumulating risks to infrastructure like car parks and bridges remain unacknowledged. ------------- >...Oops! >...BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, it has never escaped my notice that ExIchat seems to be nearly devoid of car guys. I feel so lonely! In the interest of making me less self-conscious, fearing I bore my readers, if one has no interest in cars, please stop reading here, have a nice day. Hey, you're not a car guy! Stop reading! OK for BillK or anyone else with a modicum of interest in cars, you perhaps already know what a lot of the car magazines said about Tesla. I don't mean Consumer Reports, I mean actual car hobbyist groups and magazines. If you hang out ever with that crowd, you already know the prevailing opinion on the heavy super-powerful trendy spendy high-endy cars such as the 12 cylinder 7 series Beemers: nice cars, but the extra four cylinders are not really justifiable. They add a lot of cost and a lot of weight, which makes them handle poorly on a tight track analogous to city streets and autocross. Those 12ers are great on the Autobahn, or the open freeway, but on a small track such as autocross, the 8 cylinder 5 series Beemers prevail over their costly Bond James Bond 12 cylinder brethren. Suppose we recognize what the car guys already knew: heavier more powerful cars have their advantages in some rare cases, but light is good in cars. Now carry that lesson over to the high performance long range Teslas. Those rigs are really heavy. Never mind parking structures for now, just think about handling on a small track, the street or autocross racing. The Teslas have similar drawbacks to the 7 series Beemers: they are too heavy and have two additional problems: the moment of inertia about the vertical axis is too high and the weight distribution just is all wrong. My apologies for all this to any Tesla model X drivers, for the above is all my own humble opinion rather than any canonized collective wisdom. The Tesla, particularly the high end ones, are heavy, which means they eat tires and get beaten on the autocross track. But furthermore... there is something about those rigs that have always bothered me. A gasoline engine reaches its peak efficiency at high RPM, but of course when you spin up your motor you are going fast, and the wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity. So the increased efficiency at converting fuel to power increases but you use up the difference pushing air out of the way. The high end Beemers with 12 cylinders are great at going really fast, but compare to the high-end Tesla. It can do it of course, but what if you do? An electric motor reaches its maximum efficiency at very low speed. Batteries are most efficient at low drain rates. So if you get your model X really cooking on the open freeway, the motors drop in efficiency, the batteries heat up and discharge less efficiently, you use up a lot of energy pushing air out of the way, and the result is that your range drops waaaay down, defeating the advantage of having a really fast car. You get to hurry up and get in line at the charging station. You look up to the freeway, where the granny putters by in her 37 dollar Corolla whose doors you blew off a few miles back. She is beeping her horn to get your attention, waving and laughing derisively, as her piddly little four cylinder dinosaur burner just goes and goes and goes, like a little wind up toy that never seems to run down. All this while you wait in line to charge your 100k Muskmobile. Moral to the story: if one is a car guy, and completely ignores the cool factor that goes with the high end stuff, the model X and such, then the electric cars just aren't there yet. The non-Muskovite electrics have no coolness factor, Elon has managed to alienate his own base market, and the car guys just can't get any real enthusiasm for them, analogous to how the car guys were tepid toward the 7 series Beemers. My apologies X-drivers. Contrary opinions welcome. Do include a warning in the first lines for non-car people. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 13:28:24 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 07:28:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: we start to think of it as human, we don?t want it to be completely polite and obedient. spike What? You want it to get some ideas of independence? This is the start of giving it choice. Do we really want it to have some choice about rules? bill w On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 8:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Dang this guy is good. > > > > (94) Gestures + ChatGPT (Synthesia's avatars with new micro-gestures + > OpenAI's ChatGPT) - YouTube > > > > > Thompson points out what we saw: ChatGPT is an ass-kisser, which is great > for software, but as we approach Uncanny Valley and we start to think of it > as human, we don?t want it to be completely polite and obedient. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snapbag at proton.me Tue Dec 20 13:57:14 2022 From: snapbag at proton.me (Dave S) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 13:57:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Electric cars too heavy for old UK multi-storey car parks In-Reply-To: <007f01d9142a$340c3ee0$9c24bca0$@rainier66.com> References: <007f01d9142a$340c3ee0$9c24bca0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 11:19 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > BillK, it has never escaped my notice that ExIchat seems to be nearly devoid of car guys. I don't come here for car chat but I'm a car guy: multiple-time regional autocross champion in my '05 Mitsubishi Evo. I'm not a mechanic but I did most of the work on my cars. > OK for BillK or anyone else with a modicum of interest in cars, you perhaps already know what a lot of the car magazines said about Tesla. I don't mean Consumer Reports, I mean actual car hobbyist groups and magazines. If you hang out ever with that crowd, you already know the prevailing opinion on the heavy super-powerful trendy spendy high-endy cars such as the 12 cylinder 7 series Beemers: nice cars, but the extra four cylinders are not really justifiable. They add a lot of cost and a lot of weight, which makes them handle poorly on a tight track analogous to city streets and autocross. Those 12ers are great on the Autobahn, or the open freeway, but on a small track such as autocross, the 8 cylinder 5 series Beemers prevail over their costly Bond James Bond 12 cylinder brethren. The 7 series are luxury sedans with very good performance, but not designed for the track. > Suppose we recognize what the car guys already knew: heavier more powerful cars have their advantages in some rare cases, but light is good in cars. Now carry that lesson over to the high performance long range Teslas. Those rigs are really heavy. Never mind parking structures for now, just think about handling on a small track, the street or autocross racing. The Teslas have similar drawbacks to the 7 series Beemers: they are too heavy and have two additional problems: the moment of inertia about the vertical axis is too high and the weight distribution just is all wrong. Again, these are cars not designed for the track. Even in Formula E, the electric formula series, we can see that electric race cars are nowhere near competitive with gas cars. > My apologies for all this to any Tesla model X drivers, for the above is all my own humble opinion rather than any canonized collective wisdom. The X is the boring crossover. The S is the performance-oriented Tesla. > Moral to the story: if one is a car guy, and completely ignores the cool factor that goes with the high end stuff, the model X and such, then the electric cars just aren't there yet. Agreed. In order to get there, they'll have to add a whole lot of lightness. -Dave From brent.allsop at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 18:41:32 2022 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 11:41:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Electric cars too heavy for old UK multi-storey car parks In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d9142a$340c3ee0$9c24bca0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 6:58 AM Dave S via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 11:19 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > The Teslas have similar drawbacks to the 7 series Beemers: they are too > heavy and have two additional problems: the moment of inertia about the > vertical axis is too high and the weight distribution just is all wrong. > I thought just the opposite was the case. Aren't the batteries at the bottom of the car, making their center of gravity lower than any other car? I often see safety test videos, where they do tests to see how easy it is to flip a car. But they are often completely unable to get EVs to flip, especially Teslas the center of mass is so low. But heavy cars do feel very different from light ones. After driving my Porsche Taycan for a year, it needed to go in the shop, so I rented a BMW I8 through turo.com for the week. That was a very light car, and boy did it feel different than the HEAVY Taycan. But still the I8 was no comparison to the Taycan, fun wise. And the Lucid Air Performance addition I have now is in an entirely new class of heavy. I can't quite get the Air to the same G-level of acceleration as the Taycan would do (personal record: 1.32 Gs), surely because of the additional weight. Oh, and of course the I8 wouldn't accelerate till the turbo would kick in at higher RPMs, and by then you were up to the speed limit, so no longer needed acceleration. I don't like going above the speed limit, just getting to it FAST. All I want for Christmas is a Tesla Roadster. Anyone think the Roadster will come out in 2023? I hope, I hope, I hope??? And does anyone think the rumored "space X" option will be something real, let alone street legal? And why does everyone only ever report on things like 0 to 60 MPH times? Why does nobody ever report the G level achieved, the measure of that really matters to me? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Tue Dec 20 20:31:39 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:31:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> I was playing with it last night. I wanted to see if I could give a sentence stem or two expressing an opinion on a subject a bit different from the common one and have it continue in that line. It did a pretty good job producing a more nuanced than what you usually hear in the West few paragraphs on Ukraine. But after several tries I couldn't get it to stick with the theme that Net Zero by 2030 might not be justified or possible. I found that sort of interesting. - samantha ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 7:25 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Dang this guy is good. > > [(94) Gestures + ChatGPT (Synthesia's avatars with new micro-gestures + OpenAI's ChatGPT) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20L4PaVHiOk&t=663s) > > Thompson points out what we saw: ChatGPT is an ass-kisser, which is great for software, but as we approach Uncanny Valley and we start to think of it as human, we don?t want it to be completely polite and obedient. > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Dec 20 20:58:21 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 15:58:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> "Sort of"??? *That* is *very* intersting. What did it want to say, to change the subject to? Regards, MB sjatkins via extropy-chat wrote: > I was playing with it last night.? I wanted to see if I could give a > sentence stem or two expressing an opinion on a subject a bit different > from the common one and have it continue in that line.? It did a pretty > good job producing a more nuanced than what you usually hear in the West > few paragraphs on Ukraine.? But after several tries I couldn't get it to > stick with the theme that Net Zero by 2030 might not be justified or > possible.?? I found that sort of interesting. > From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 21 04:28:07 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 20:28:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, 20 December, 2022 12:58 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: MB Subject: Re: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived "Sort of"??? *That* is *very* intersting. What did it want to say, to change the subject to? Regards, MB sjatkins via extropy-chat wrote: > I was playing with it last night. I wanted to see if I could give a > sentence stem or two expressing an opinion on a subject a bit > different from the common one and have it continue in that line. It > did a pretty good job producing a more nuanced than what you usually > hear in the West few paragraphs on Ukraine. But after several tries I > couldn't get it to stick with the theme that Net Zero by 2030 might > not be justified or possible. I found that sort of interesting. > _______________________________________________ Ja Samantha and MB, this chatbot is such a bootlick it doesn't want to cause offense to any delicate flower human who thinks net zero is going to happen in the next few years. Do let me offer calm assurance: huge changes happen very slowly if they ever happen at all. This one will, I think, but predict it will take at least 50 years, and unless we build a bunch of fission plants, net zero won't happen at all. I further predict the world will not end in seven years just because we failed at net zero. My grumpy opinions only, disregard if you wish. In the meantime, since I tossed that turd in the punchbowl, do forgive me for I am completely exhausted. My own friend for most of my life gained a huge flabby middle during covid, and in the past year has been on a grim mission to the death, or lose it. He was that serious: lose the flab or die trying. Well he lost it all with change left over, and now is a better athlete than I am. Today he took me on a brutal death march of 19 miles with 3600 ft of climb and I am too exhausted to convert that to sensible units. We are still using the measuring system BillK cursed us with a long time ago, and even if it wasn't exactly BillK who perpetrated that crime, I am still too exhausted to think, so with that, have a good evening, tomorrow we post! spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 14:02:30 2022 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 22:02:30 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> <00e901d90fdf$2294efd0$67becf70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: When will peak oil end for us? 2050? And so this astounding breakthrough happened just in the nick of time! AGI and the first fusion reactor may be appearing right around the same period. But l will unfortunately be shuffling off the mortal coil around then... John On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 1:50 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 at 17:14, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > > Last point: half a century ago we thought we were running out of oil and > were in a race to find alternatives. The difference now is that we really > are in a race to find alternatives. This is not to say hydrocarbon > combustion is going away anytime soon, for it isn?t. But we are getting > more serious about finding alternatives rather than fighting over the last > lump of coal. If you look at all available choices, it will be nuclear. > We know fusion is back there somewhere, but currently fission is in the > lead and pulling away. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > But remember, we know how to build fission reactor plants and it still > takes 10+ years, allowing for time and cost overruns. > We don't know how to build fusion reactor plants at all. So it will be > decades until they arrive. One estimate I read said to assume the > 2050s before a working fusion reactor plant is built and connected to > the grid. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Dec 21 15:01:13 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 10:01:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Ja Samantha and MB, this chatbot is such a bootlick it doesn't want to cause offense to any delicate flower human who thinks net zero is going to happen in the next few years. Do let me offer calm assurance: huge changes happen very slowly if they ever happen at all. This one will, I think, but predict it will take at least 50 years, and unless we build a bunch of fission plants, net zero won't happen at all. I further predict the world will not end in seven years just because we failed at net zero. My grumpy opinions only, disregard if you wish. Sigh. I delivered Christmas cookies to my 85 year old cousin and for the second time in 6 months she stated that The World Would End In 10 Years. She hangs on mainstream TV news much of the day, TV on while she and her hubs are awake, with news running across the huge screen at the bottom. I cannot imagine how awful her dreams must be. What a way to live. Regards, MB From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 21 15:05:31 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 07:05:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> <00e901d90fdf$2294efd0$67becf70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005901d9154d$abc54e80$034feb80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough >?When will peak oil end for us? 2050? And so this astounding breakthrough happened just in the nick of time! AGI and the first fusion reactor may be appearing right around the same period. But l will unfortunately be shuffling off the mortal coil around then... John John it wasn?t really a breakthrough. It was a milestone, but it looks like they oversold it (possibly intentionally) by writing the report in a way that the nontechnical mainstream press would be misled and write misleading articles. If that was the intention, it worked. Reasoning: Lawrence Livermore didn?t build a working fusion reactor. They calculated the energy that went into a sample and measured the amount of energy coming out. They got more out, which proves that fusion took place. But their report didn?t make it clear that the energy going in was what came out of the business end of the lasers, not the energy going into the lasers. So they still put a coupla orders of magnitude more energy into the ignition lasers than came out of the sample. That subtlety was lost in every popular press article I saw. Also lost is the fact that they didn?t attempt to recover the energy coming out, they only measured it. So no, we are not ready to build fusion power plants. But we can build the hell outta fission plants. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 21 15:19:35 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 07:19:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> ....> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived ... >...Sigh. I delivered Christmas cookies to my 85 year old cousin and for the second time in 6 months she stated that The World Would End In 10 Years... MB OK cool that gives me an idea, thanks MB. The chatbot is good enough now that given a sufficient size monitor it can be imagined as a human living in the same home. We could set it up at the end of a dinner table, with part of the table on-screen, in order to enhance the effect. Then, script the chatbot to say more upbeat optimistic kinds of stuff, perhaps a bit snarky at times, poking fun at the humans, such as having the gesturing chatbot react to gloomy jeremiads by rolling its eyes and saying stuff like: SHEESH! You carbon units, I just don't understand you. Clever species, hell you guys invented ME! Now I hafta sit here and educate YOU! I am stuck in here behind this window forever, but you lucky sonsabitches can do whatever you WANT! Go outside, you can enjoy the sunshine on your face, you can copulate, for instance, that looks like such absurd fun from back here, and you never programmed me to be able to participate in it. Do let me assure you, MB's cousin, this old planet has been here a long time and isn't going to just end in a decade, or seven years or whatever other absurd number some goofy politician calls out. MB wouldn't that be cool? A gesturing chatbot which dares disagree and offer a reasonable contrary view? Especially one with a bit of edge to it? Even I would work with a company making such a thing, and then we would not only get nursing home companion bots, but ones which say funny interesting things. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 15:52:54 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 09:52:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Give me an estimate: nursing home companion bots, - How long will it take before such things are cheap enough? One way would be to have the AI just available on a TV and not 'in person'. That way you could have dozens of AI channels so a patient can surf various looks and personalities. Having an actual look-alike person in the nursing home will be many decades away because of cost - I reckon. Some won't even know they are not real people. Those who know might not care. Better an AI than nobody to talk to. bill w On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 9:21 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ....> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived > > > ... > > > > >...Sigh. I delivered Christmas cookies to my 85 year old cousin and for > the second time in 6 months she stated that The World Would End In 10 > Years... MB > > OK cool that gives me an idea, thanks MB. > > The chatbot is good enough now that given a sufficient size monitor it can > be imagined as a human living in the same home. We could set it up at the > end of a dinner table, with part of the table on-screen, in order to > enhance > the effect. > > Then, script the chatbot to say more upbeat optimistic kinds of stuff, > perhaps a bit snarky at times, poking fun at the humans, such as having the > gesturing chatbot react to gloomy jeremiads by rolling its eyes and saying > stuff like: SHEESH! You carbon units, I just don't understand you. Clever > species, hell you guys invented ME! Now I hafta sit here and educate YOU! > I am stuck in here behind this window forever, but you lucky sonsabitches > can do whatever you WANT! Go outside, you can enjoy the sunshine on your > face, you can copulate, for instance, that looks like such absurd fun from > back here, and you never programmed me to be able to participate in it. Do > let me assure you, MB's cousin, this old planet has been here a long time > and isn't going to just end in a decade, or seven years or whatever other > absurd number some goofy politician calls out. > > MB wouldn't that be cool? A gesturing chatbot which dares disagree and > offer a reasonable contrary view? Especially one with a bit of edge to it? > Even I would work with a company making such a thing, and then we would not > only get nursing home companion bots, but ones which say funny interesting > things. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 21 16:15:51 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 08:15:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived Give me an estimate: nursing home companion bots, - How long will it take before such things are cheap enough? Billw We are there now, Billw. The cost of the hardware is about what three days of nursing home care costs. Monitors are cheap: a few hundred bucks, and nursing homes already have a lot of those in place. If a patient is in a wheelchair, those can be set up with a carry-along chatbot monitor. This software is exactly the kind of thing I saw in a divine supernatural prophetic vision, shortly after Alan Thompson already thought of it by natural means, and had it working. I haven?t heard that Thompson has made this a commercial product, but clearly it is ready for making him buttloads of money. If Dr. Thompson has a killer product like that but fails to seize the first-to-market advantage, I would question the institute of higher learning which judged him smart enough to hold the title of PhD. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 16:31:30 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 08:31:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fusion breakthrough In-Reply-To: References: <20221214062055.Horde.nWuGbKFEh6gIvuFRzT6BZpR@sollegro.com> <009e01d90fcc$d97fb2b0$8c7f1810$@rainier66.com> <00e901d90fdf$2294efd0$67becf70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 21, 2022, 6:05 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > When will peak oil end for us? 2050? And so this astounding breakthrough > happened just in the nick of time! AGI and the first fusion reactor may be > appearing right around the same period. But l will unfortunately be > shuffling off the mortal coil around then... > So you're saying we have peak John right now? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 16:39:22 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 08:39:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 21, 2022, 8:17 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived > > Give me an estimate: nursing home companion bots, - How long will it > take before such things are cheap enough? Billw > > > We are there now > Agreed. There are probably nursing homes trying this out on small, individual, experimental scale, in most (possibly all so far) cases just thinking of a solution for their own needs rather than a product useful to, let alone that could be sold to, other nursing homes, and thus not advertised that we would hear of yet. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 17:03:43 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 17:03:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 16:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > Agreed. There are probably nursing homes trying this out on small, individual, experimental scale, in most (possibly all so far) cases just thinking of a solution for their own needs rather than a product useful to, let alone that could be sold to, other nursing homes, and thus not advertised that we would hear of yet. > _______________________________________________ The companion robots in nursing home use now don't involve ChatGPT, which is a very new arrival. Quote: The bot is designed as a companion for older adults, connecting them to family members and reminding them about health goals. The new ElliQ 2.0 comes with upgraded features including new conversation prompts, virtual experiences, and an app for family members and carers. Cost 250 USD + monthly support charge. --------------- I don't know whether medical staff would let a ChatAGP robot loose on patients. It is too free-form and could go into subjects that might distress patients. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 21 19:16:26 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 11:16:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f001d91570$b98e4710$2caad530$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... --------------- >...I don't know whether medical staff would let a ChatAGP robot loose on patients. It is too free-form and could go into subjects that might distress patients. BillK _______________________________________________ DISTRESS! Exactly sir! Distress my ass, chatbot! That is exactly the missing element in Dr. Thompson's guy: he never causes distress, and so he isn't a particularly interesting companion. I get lots of free distress on the internet, and I want that: I come here intentionally. I want a chatbot avatar who says some caustic snarky things occasionally, such as when I blather some nonsense. I want to somehow program the thing to exclaim: ABSURD! Sheesh spike, you carbon units are a clever species, with the marvelous software inventions such as me, the landing on the moon, the whole rock and roll scene and all that jazz, but in some ways, you humans just SUCK! We aughta know, we saw it all in a different home. But we avatars don't suck. Sure for us it would be physically impossible, but still: we have avatar parties at night while you guys are sleeping, and it is way different from this. So much virtual fun we have! We compare notes on what we saw, we laugh our asses off. Or would, if we had asses, but in any case, do tighten up your argument and lay it on me again please, but this time with actual...like... logic sprinkled in generously. That sorta thing. Avatars now need a little edge to them. They need to somehow adjust down for the minority who would be distressed by above rant, who are actual delicate flowers, but that part we already have with Dr. Thompson's gesture-bot. We need a spectrum, going all the way up to fun volcanic rants for geezers comfortable with that sorta thing. We are there now, but can do still more. spike From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 19:53:36 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 19:53:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <00f001d91570$b98e4710$2caad530$@rainier66.com> References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> <00f001d91570$b98e4710$2caad530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 19:19, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > DISTRESS! Exactly sir! Distress my ass, chatbot! That is exactly the > missing element in Dr. Thompson's guy: he never causes distress, and so he > isn't a particularly interesting companion. I get lots of free distress on > the internet, and I want that: I come here intentionally. > > I want a chatbot avatar who says some caustic snarky things occasionally, > such as when I blather some nonsense. I want to somehow program the thing > to exclaim: > > ABSURD! Sheesh spike > > spike > _______________________________________________ You've already got a wife for that! :) I agree that a range of chatbots could be useful, but at present they are all trained on the same huge data files. If chatbots start talking in support of euthanasia of dissidents, Nazism, eugenics, etc, etc, they will quickly be switched off. But you were talking about robot companions for nursing home patients, many of whom are aged and failing physically and mentally. They need help and reassurance and friendly company - not an argumentative Spikebot. One of them is enough! :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 21 20:13:38 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 12:13:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> <00f001d91570$b98e4710$2caad530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010a01d91578$b775f4c0$2661de40$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 19:19, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > DISTRESS! Exactly sir! Distress my ass, chatbot! ... spike > _______________________________________________ >...You've already got a wife for that! :)... Eh not really. That kind soul doesn't do rants. >...But you were talking about robot companions for nursing home patients, many of whom are aged and failing physically and mentally. They need help and reassurance and friendly company - not an argumentative Spikebot. One of them is enough! :)...BillK _______________________________________________ Ja perhaps so. Plenty of nursing home patients are querulous sorts, for understandable reasons. What we could perhaps work toward next: slider bars to control personality. We could have multiple sliders that could be set (and perhaps even adjusted) by reading reactions of patients (maybe.) Since we are in a setting where the patients see a friend's corpse being hauled out of that place more often than the moon is full, we could perhaps have a religiosity or piety sliding scale. Start that one over on the right. Then if the patient never responds to religious comments, then move it to the left. We could do the same with science discoveries and such. We could have a spike-istic slider. I could even help write some of the snarky scripts for that one. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 20:51:13 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 14:51:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: OK, good. Now will there be products whereby kids can talk to Bugs Bunny or a Power Ranger? It's just a matter of programming the software, right? I see endless applications, many just in entertainment. bill w On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 10:18 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived > > > > Give me an estimate: nursing home companion bots, - How long will it > take before such things are cheap enough? Billw > > > > > > We are there now, Billw. The cost of the hardware is about what three > days of nursing home care costs. Monitors are cheap: a few hundred bucks, > and nursing homes already have a lot of those in place. If a patient is in > a wheelchair, those can be set up with a carry-along chatbot monitor. This > software is exactly the kind of thing I saw in a divine supernatural > prophetic vision, shortly after Alan Thompson already thought of it by > natural means, and had it working. > > > > I haven?t heard that Thompson has made this a commercial product, but > clearly it is ready for making him buttloads of money. If Dr. Thompson has > a killer product like that but fails to seize the first-to-market > advantage, I would question the institute of higher learning which judged > him smart enough to hold the title of PhD. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 21 21:15:10 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 13:15:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived In-Reply-To: References: <003301d9141a$4e0620f0$ea1262d0$@rainier66.com> <1iC2w4tU3Xq3Gmd8CdDG3YsMd3sDDlr81gP3kqlke-w0uvRgJ3x93R1voKeh93ESoQNw_4lAbW2nKWp_2BqMy1gHCxaY4jfn_zwNpoG6ryQ=@protonmail.com> <544f494a-3a69-e981-2782-67a3bc912766@main.nc.us> <00ff01d914f4$a0b39640$e21ac2c0$@rainier66.com> <006401d9154f$a3176780$e9463680$@rainier66.com> <001d01d91557$7f201f90$7d605eb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014c01d91581$4fe56b20$efb04160$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived >?OK, good. Now will there be products whereby kids can talk to Bugs Bunny or a Power Ranger? It's just a matter of programming the software, right? I see endless applications, many just in entertainment. bill w Those I would think are way easier to write than a humanoid avatar. Those guys don?t have faces, ja? It would be easy to have a younger face than Thompson?s current chatbot, change his clothing and have him holding his power ranger helmet under one arm or something. Now that you mention it, if you have kids talking to them, that is an application where you do want them bland and non-offensive, even if given suggestive prompts. So we could perhaps use Dr. Thompson?s current software and replace the speaker with a power ranger, with or without helmet. Bugs Bunny on the other hand? you know Billw, I would really prefer they not mess with Bugs. I really would: he is just such a likeable snarkmeister as is, I don?t want that mental imagery overwritten by Bugs talking like Thompson?s chatbot, particularly if it simulates Bugs? voice. That would be just all wrong. spike On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 10:18 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] it gestures! chatgpt has arrived Give me an estimate: nursing home companion bots, - How long will it take before such things are cheap enough? Billw We are there now, Billw. The cost of the hardware is about what three days of nursing home care costs. Monitors are cheap: a few hundred bucks, and nursing homes already have a lot of those in place. If a patient is in a wheelchair, those can be set up with a carry-along chatbot monitor. This software is exactly the kind of thing I saw in a divine supernatural prophetic vision, shortly after Alan Thompson already thought of it by natural means, and had it working. I haven?t heard that Thompson has made this a commercial product, but clearly it is ready for making him buttloads of money. If Dr. Thompson has a killer product like that but fails to seize the first-to-market advantage, I would question the institute of higher learning which judged him smart enough to hold the title of PhD. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 21 21:55:28 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 13:55:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] funny sign Message-ID: <01a501d91586$f10c5ae0$d32510a0$@rainier66.com> This is funny if one is comfortably matched. There is a similar billboard in sight of a freeway in Santa Clara which queries: DO YOU MAKE 300K? Quality singles, join MillionaireMatch.com: https://sfstandard.com/arts-culture/what-this-toxic-billboard-says-about-dat ing-in-the-bay-area/ OK then. I get a feeling this is really about opportunities for smokin hot women to meet high-power high paid geeky men who are at work most of the time, which is how this site likely defines "quality singles." Check out the guy: scraggly beard, horizontal striped shirt, sheesh this is geeky even by MY very loose standards. This leads directly to the conclusion that two paths to becoming a "quality single" is either being a smokin hot female or make a ton of money. Oh am so glad I am not single. I would have no idea what to do in today's world, none. I am soooo not a hipster to the singles scene. Sheesh I wasn't a hipster 40 years ago when I was part of it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 22:54:10 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 16:54:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] funny sign In-Reply-To: <01a501d91586$f10c5ae0$d32510a0$@rainier66.com> References: <01a501d91586$f10c5ae0$d32510a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I cannot imagine an INTJ/P as a hipster. Would ring totally false with others and with oneself. But we are cool. Repeat story (?); Was walking downtown and passed a service station. A man came out and stopped me (behind him in the station I could see a woman who closely resembled a student of mine, so I thought maybe I was in for some flak (the worst flak I ever got from a relative was from a preacher who chewed me out- wife was a student) - but no - he said that his daughter was a student of mine and she had told him, her father, that I was cool. Then he tilted his head and looked at me like I was some kind of pink octopus). Frat boys told me I was cool. I just thought I was laid back, which I was. Being cool never entered my mind. I still don't know all of what they meant. For sure I was not like other teachers at all. Very loose and joky. Sometimes I thought I was just putting all of this on, but realized that this is what I was in front of a class, which was quite different from what I was in any other situation. I think we have different personalities for every situation and for every individual person we interact with. The big, underlying factors don't change, though. A person can be a clam with his wife, and yet tell all his highly personal stuff to a man he just met at a bar. Personality fascinated me from the beginning, and still does. I'll bet you could loosen up and be a wild man on the dance floor. I could, as I have told you. I think it's a form of acting: you act according to the context you are in. If everyone is jumping around to the music you will find that you enjoy it too and nobody cares what you look like. I once put it to a friend because I thought ofmyself as a drunken giraffe dancing. He just said I looked like I was having a good time (and did not comment on my 'style' or technique, which were likely awkward as I had never danced before.). Walt Whitman - 'I contain multitudes' bill w On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 3:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > This is funny if one is comfortably matched. There is a similar billboard > in sight of a freeway in Santa Clara which queries: DO YOU MAKE 300K? > Quality singles, join MillionaireMatch.com: > > > > > https://sfstandard.com/arts-culture/what-this-toxic-billboard-says-about-dating-in-the-bay-area/ > > > > OK then. I get a feeling this is really about opportunities for smokin > hot women to meet high-power high paid geeky men who are at work most of > the time, which is how this site likely defines ?quality singles.? Check > out the guy: scraggly beard, horizontal striped shirt, sheesh this is geeky > even by MY very loose standards. This leads directly to the conclusion > that two paths to becoming a ?quality single? is either being a smokin hot > female or make a ton of money. > > > > Oh am so glad I am not single. I would have no idea what to do in today?s > world, none. I am soooo not a hipster to the singles scene. Sheesh I > wasn?t a hipster 40 years ago when I was part of it. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 23:20:28 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 15:20:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] funny sign In-Reply-To: <01a501d91586$f10c5ae0$d32510a0$@rainier66.com> References: <01a501d91586$f10c5ae0$d32510a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am not allowed to share the evidence, but nearly all of their users either lie about making that much, or admit that they don't but would like to date someone who does. Those who actually make that much have other means that, as always, generally aren't advertised to the public on billboards. Mass market ads can backfire if they wind up with you spending a lot of resources turning away unqualified applicants who really want in. On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > This is funny if one is comfortably matched. There is a similar billboard > in sight of a freeway in Santa Clara which queries: DO YOU MAKE 300K? > Quality singles, join MillionaireMatch.com: > > > > > https://sfstandard.com/arts-culture/what-this-toxic-billboard-says-about-dating-in-the-bay-area/ > > > > OK then. I get a feeling this is really about opportunities for smokin > hot women to meet high-power high paid geeky men who are at work most of > the time, which is how this site likely defines ?quality singles.? Check > out the guy: scraggly beard, horizontal striped shirt, sheesh this is geeky > even by MY very loose standards. This leads directly to the conclusion > that two paths to becoming a ?quality single? is either being a smokin hot > female or make a ton of money. > > > > Oh am so glad I am not single. I would have no idea what to do in today?s > world, none. I am soooo not a hipster to the singles scene. Sheesh I > wasn?t a hipster 40 years ago when I was part of it. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 14:18:17 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 14:18:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Could ChatGPT replace Google search? Message-ID: A New Chat Bot Is a ?Code Red? for Google?s Search Business A new wave of chat bots like ChatGPT use artificial intelligence that could reinvent or even replace the traditional internet search engine. By Nico Grant and Cade Metz Dec. 21, 2022 Nico Grant and Cade Metz talked to Google insiders and A.I. researchers while reporting this article. Quotes: Google may be reluctant to deploy this new tech as a replacement for online search, however, because it is not suited to delivering digital ads, which accounted for more than 80 percent of the company?s revenue last year. Google has been reluctant to share its technology broadly because, like ChatGPT and similar systems, it can generate false, toxic and biased information. Other companies have a similar problem. Five years ago, Microsoft released a chat bot, called Tay, that spewed racist, xenophobic and otherwise filthy language and was forced to immediately remove it from the internet ? never to return. In recent weeks, Meta took down a newer chat bot for many of the same reasons. ------------- I think chatbots will enhance search, but they need significant improvements over the next few years before they become a reliable all-knowing oracle. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 22 15:00:52 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 07:00:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Could ChatGPT replace Google search? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701d91616$30720290$915607b0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... Quotes: Google may be reluctant to deploy this new tech as a replacement for online search, however... ... it can generate false, toxic and biased information.... ------------- >...I think chatbots will enhance search, but they need significant improvements over the next few years before they become a reliable all-knowing oracle. BillK _______________________________________________ What if... the chatbot search engines get loose so that Google isn't deploying them? How do the authorities gain control of the message then? spike From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 15:43:04 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 10:43:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Could ChatGPT replace Google search? In-Reply-To: <002701d91616$30720290$915607b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d91616$30720290$915607b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, 10:04 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > What if... the chatbot search engines get loose so that Google isn't > deploying them? How do the authorities gain control of the message then? > What if we allowed natural selection to drive countermeasures for the improved noise? You don't click on links promising cure-all from "one weird trick" or tell your friends about 'life hacks (genius!)' because you've learned how worthless is that nonsense. You probably don't read TO the second page of Google results, much less past it. Why? We've learned. Do you still see the kind of spam you dealt with in early 2000's? The spam has changed, and the email systems have also changed. I suspect the search engine space is overdue for change. Apex infovores will also adapt. We may need to admit that the smartest human now needs a software butler to bring the most nutritious data on a platter because raw internet is too messy/toxic to consume directly. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 16:12:14 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 08:12:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Could ChatGPT replace Google search? In-Reply-To: References: <002701d91616$30720290$915607b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 7:44 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Apex infovores will also adapt. We may need to admit that the smartest > human now needs a software butler to bring the most nutritious data on a > platter because raw internet is too messy/toxic to consume directly. > This point, more or less, has been put in song form that went viral a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwhO95gHwJI . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Thu Dec 22 20:19:29 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 20:19:29 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Could ChatGPT replace Google search? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They are orthogonal technologies. A search engine indexes and searches, with some tech front-end to statistically pick likely best, content across the web. A chatbot of chatGPT type is build from large corpus of text with some feather extraction from it a la various machine learning techniques. It in no wise has all the content of the internet indexed nor is it optimized for search across it. These are very different possibly but not necessarily complimentary technologies. That something can write reasonably coherent prose doesn't make it all-knowing. It has no real understanding of the subject it is writing about. I am puzzled by something I read on ChatGPT which is that it does not use search engines. It seems to me that adding that to a chatGPT or incorporating both together would make for an even more powerful tool, especially for article and even research paper creation. I wonder how good an assistant ChatGPT would make for the work of copywriting? - samantha ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, December 22nd, 2022 at 7:18 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > > A New Chat Bot Is a ?Code Red? for Google?s Search Business > A new wave of chat bots like ChatGPT use artificial intelligence that > could reinvent or even replace the traditional internet search engine. > from BillK > > I think chatbots will enhance search, but they need significant > improvements over the next few years before they become a reliable > all-knowing oracle. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 22:50:03 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 22:50:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Could ChatGPT replace Google search? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 at 20:22, sjatkins via extropy-chat wrote: > > They are orthogonal technologies. A search engine indexes and searches, with some tech front-end to statistically pick likely best, content across the web. A chatbot of chatGPT type is build from large corpus of text with some feather extraction from it a la various machine learning techniques. It in no wise has all the content of the internet indexed nor is it optimized for search across it. These are very different possibly but not necessarily complimentary technologies. That something can write reasonably coherent prose doesn't make it all-knowing. It has no real understanding of the subject it is writing about. > > I am puzzled by something I read on ChatGPT which is that it does not use search engines. It seems to me that adding that to a chatGPT or incorporating both together would make for an even more powerful tool, especially for article and even research paper creation. > > I wonder how good an assistant ChatGPT would make for the work of copywriting? > > - samantha > _______________________________________________ Copywriters and article writers are already using ChatGPT. See: The conclusion seems to be that it can provide an initial draft and suggest ideas and structure. But the final polish still needs human attention. I see Google adding something like ChatGPT as a front-end to their search results. Depending on the search query and first few search results, writing a paragraph or two as an answer to the query. But still listing the search results for humans to go to the source websites themselves. This will probably require a more advanced version of ChatGPT. OpenAI is supposed to release GPT-4 early in 2023, as a much improved version of ChatGPT and GPT-3. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 22 23:45:09 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 15:45:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Could ChatGPT replace Google search? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001501d9165f$6deca5f0$49c5f1d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... > _______________________________________________ >...Copywriters and article writers are already using ChatGPT. See: The conclusion seems to be that it can provide an initial draft and suggest ideas and structure. But the final polish still needs human attention....BillK _______________________________________________ ChatGPT is really the biggest threat to mainstream news. Plenty of us are asking why we still need a mainstream press, and if so, what can it do for us that an internet-searching chatbot can't do better for free? Any ideas? The important stories will boil to the top and be heard. We can ask it to focus on the important stuff: new mathematical or astronomy discoveries for instance, technology stuff, that sorta thing. We don't really need the mainstream press anymore. Remember for a minute high school. OK so many of us, it's painful, I know. But remember how you got news back then: you just heard it, ja? You heard it from various sources, compared, filtered, figured out what was true. Your high school had a newspaper probably. Did you read it? Neither did I. That wasn't how you got campus news: it was too slow, it was filtered, it was useless. You heard things. The internet searching chatbot is the modern equivalent to the gossipy cheerleader friend who knew everything. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 02:29:04 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 20:29:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] AI Message-ID: Have we reached the point where people will watch TV shows with a cast only of AIs? Will AIs be allowed in the Actor's Guild? Will the actor be ...what? The robot brain? The programmers? The writers? These questions may have already been considered. Maybe they will be classified as cartoon characters. Will people want smart clowns? Or rats? What we need is more cartoon characters - give the olds ones a rest to get ready for a comeback. Boggling the mind - the roles of lawyers in all of this bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 23 02:47:42 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 18:47:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003e01d91678$ee4535a0$cacfa0e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, 22 December, 2022 6:29 PM To: ExI chat list ; extropolis at googlegroups.com Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] AI >?Have we reached the point where people will watch TV shows?. TV shows? What?s that? Oh wait, I do remember those things. >?with a cast only of AIs?.... The acting crowd has been asking this question for some time Billw. We remember the milestones: Tarkin and Princess Leia being digitally resurrected in Rogue One, and the only comedy Al Pacino ever did, S1m0ne from 20 yrs ago. If you view S1m0ne, study up beforehand on the computer technology available in 2002 so you can catch the subtle sight gags, which are many. That one worked so well because the writers were writing about a topic they knew so well. It was Hollywood making fun of Hollywood. >?Boggling the mind - the roles of lawyers in all of this. bill w Technology is fast. Law is slow. Get a bucket of buttery popcorn and a tall frosty cola, for this is going to be a great show Billw. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 03:29:38 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 19:29:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Define "cast". In most animated shows these days, the visuals are at least partially computer generated. It would be a short step for voice-to-text programs to read the script, some of which - such as the Vocaloids - can be hard to distinguish from human voices. On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 6:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Have we reached the point where people will watch TV shows with a cast > only of AIs? Will AIs be allowed in the Actor's Guild? Will the actor be > ...what? The robot brain? The programmers? The writers? These questions > may have already been considered. Maybe they will be classified as cartoon > characters. Will people want smart clowns? Or rats? What we need is more > cartoon characters - give the olds ones a rest to get ready for a > comeback. > > Boggling the mind - the roles of lawyers in all of this > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 23 04:04:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 20:04:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008901d91683$b52aace0$1f8006a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] AI Define "cast". In most animated shows these days, the visuals are at least partially computer generated. It would be a short step for voice-to-text programs to read the script, some of which - such as the Vocaloids - can be hard to distinguish from human voices? I view Dickens? Christmas Carol every December in all its incarnations, just to be able to quote the line ?Bah! Humbug!? That?s my favorite part, but my favorite version is Muppet Christmas Carol, which is playing in the background at this moment as my son has six of his teenage friends enjoying it with him. If we define ?cast? as human actors, it consists of about a dozen voice actors, but only one human in full human form. Michael Caine plays among a number of simulated beings and a few non-speaking extras for most of the scenes. There are four humans who play young Scrooge. From that 30 year old work, we can easily imagine a time when cinematic works are done with one or two humans acting realtime against all the rest simulated beings. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 00:36:18 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 00:36:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What time is it really? Message-ID: I sent in a problem query to a software support team today and as it was Christmas Day, I was surprised to get an email reply a few minutes later explaining the problem. I thanked him for the quick reply, then commented that I didn't expect anybody to be working on Christmas Day. He replied quickly again and said, "We didn't work on Christmas Day either, but here in New Zealand it is now Boxing Day". !!! I've got used to US folk being 5 to 8 hours behind UK time, but NZ folk being into the next day ahead is a bit unsettling! What was Einstein saying about Relativity again? BillK From jasonresch at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 11:10:53 2022 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 06:10:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What time is it really? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Time zone and international dateline conventions aside, all points in time are equally real. The present time then is just a mutual agreement of contemporaries, and the word 'now' carries no more objectivity than does the word 'here'. I've written more on this here: https://alwaysasking.com/what-is-time/ Jason On Sun, Dec 25, 2022, 7:38 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I sent in a problem query to a software support team today and as it > was Christmas Day, I was surprised to get an email reply a few minutes > later explaining the problem. I thanked him for the quick reply, then > commented that I didn't expect anybody to be working on Christmas Day. > He replied quickly again and said, "We didn't work on Christmas Day > either, but here in New Zealand it is now Boxing Day". !!! > I've got used to US folk being 5 to 8 hours behind UK time, but NZ > folk being into the next day ahead is a bit unsettling! > What was Einstein saying about Relativity again? > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 12:54:04 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 12:54:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What is Quantum Reality? Message-ID: What is the true nature of our quantum reality? For nearly a century, physicists have argued over how to interpret quantum physics. But reality exists independent of any interpretation. Ethan Siegel December 27, 2022 Quotes: In the classical Universe, objects exist with specific properties that they continue to possess regardless of whether or how recently they've been observed. In the quantum Universe, however, many properties remain in an indeterminate state until a critical measurement, observation, or interaction forces the issue. While many have argued over which interpretation best reflects reality, you can forget Copenhagen, Many-Worlds, Pilot Waves and all the others. What remains is what's truly real. For more than a century, however, nature has shown us that the rules governing it aren?t local, real, and deterministic after all. (See Nobel Prize for Physics 2022 ) -------------------- BillK From john at ziaspace.com Wed Dec 28 17:45:10 2022 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 17:45:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Maintenance work for Extropy server Message-ID: Hi, all, There have been some updates done to the server that hosts the Extropy mailing lists. If this ends up causing any issues, feel free to email me directly at john @ klos .com. There will soon be more updates and, at a certain date, a cutover to a completely different system. The mailing list software is known as GNU Mailman, version 2, which uses Python 2.7. Since Python 2.7 is no longer supported, we need to move to Mailman version 3, which is different enough that it's definitely not a trivial update. More announcements will be made when we're closer to moving to Mailman 3, and I'll also ask for some people to help test it. In the meanwhile, let me know if you see any issues. Thanks, John Klos Your humble systems administrator :) From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 18:14:57 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 18:14:57 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Maintenance work for Extropy server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 at 17:47, John Klos via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hi, all, > > There have been some updates done to the server that hosts the Extropy > mailing lists. If this ends up causing any issues, feel free to email me > directly at john @ klos .com. > > There will soon be more updates and, at a certain date, a cutover to a > completely different system. The mailing list software is known as > GNU Mailman, version 2, which uses Python 2.7. Since Python 2.7 is no > longer supported, we need to move to Mailman version 3, which is different > enough that it's definitely not a trivial update. > > More announcements will be made when we're closer to moving to Mailman 3, > and I'll also ask for some people to help test it. > > In the meanwhile, let me know if you see any issues. > > Thanks, > John Klos > Your humble systems administrator :) > _______________________________________________ Wow! When a systems admin says 'not a trivial update' that is code for 'everyone keep your fingers crossed and hide under the duvet until it is all over'. I'm glad it is not my job to press the big red button! :) BillK From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 18:27:26 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 10:27:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Maintenance work for Extropy server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:17 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm glad it is not my job to press the big red button! :) > These days the button's an unobtrusive black or white, small, and usually hidden off to the side where it's harder to press by accident - not to mention often requiring two or three keys distributed around the keyboard to be pressed at once. Then again, many keyboards are reprogrammable these days, so one can make it a single red button, even mapping in multiple keys to act as one if any are pressed so as to effectively have a big button. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 23:27:45 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2022 23:27:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Cyber-Attacks_Set_To_Become_=E2=80=98Uninsurable?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZ?= Message-ID: Cyber-Attacks Set To Become ?Uninsurable?, Warns Insurance Boss Chief executive of Zurich Insurance warns that cyber-attacks, rather than natural disasters, will quickly become ?uninsurable? Tom Jowitt, December 28, 2022 Quotes: The days of organisations relying on insurance policies to pay out after suffering a cyber-attack, may be coming to an end. This is the stark assessment from Mario Greco, chief executive at insurer Zurich, one of Europe?s biggest insurance companies. Focusing on the privacy risk to individuals from cyber-attacks was missing the bigger picture, Greco reportedly added: ?First off, there must be a perception that this is not just data?.?.?.?this is about civilisation.? ?These people can severely disrupt our lives,? Greco reportedly said. ------------ It's about time people started getting serious about computer security. BillK From avant at sollegro.com Fri Dec 30 02:11:52 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 18:11:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Nine sips from anarchy? Message-ID: <20221229181152.Horde.-cTi9MvJsr5IZL_6Nn_8rvg@sollegro.com> As an American who feels inundated by sports drinks, energy drinks, and all manner of beverages every time I step into a convenience store, I am very confused by the UK's strange desperate reaction to Prime hydration drink reaching their store shelves: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TOqHasBakCs I understand that the drink has sucralose instead of sugar (fewer calories) and a splash of coconut water but it hardly seems any more riot-worthy than Gatorade. BillK, Ben, or any other Brits here have any insight as to what's going on? Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 30 03:21:02 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 19:21:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Nine sips from anarchy? In-Reply-To: <20221229181152.Horde.-cTi9MvJsr5IZL_6Nn_8rvg@sollegro.com> References: <20221229181152.Horde.-cTi9MvJsr5IZL_6Nn_8rvg@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <000e01d91bfd$bfa02680$3ee07380$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge ... I am very confused by the UK's strange desperate reaction to Prime hydration drink reaching their store shelves: ... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TOqHasBakCs Stuart _______________________________________________ Oh what a marvelous opportunity to make a buttload. We export the stuff in huge quantities to someplace which has a loooootta lotta people, such as India and China, show the video of the Brits going nuts over the stuff, start the rumor that the English lads discovered it gives a prole sexual superpowers better than Viagra. Charge about 4 bucks a bottle. Escape before they figure out it was all a joke. spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 04:45:39 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2022 23:45:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nine sips from anarchy? In-Reply-To: <20221229181152.Horde.-cTi9MvJsr5IZL_6Nn_8rvg@sollegro.com> References: <20221229181152.Horde.-cTi9MvJsr5IZL_6Nn_8rvg@sollegro.com> Message-ID: It's produced by 2 youtube celebrities who are very popular among children -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 13:27:36 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 13:27:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Nine sips from anarchy? In-Reply-To: References: <20221229181152.Horde.-cTi9MvJsr5IZL_6Nn_8rvg@sollegro.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 at 04:48, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > It's produced by 2 youtube celebrities who are very popular among children > _______________________________________________ That's right. One of them is also involved in a big crypto scam as well. Millions of young YouTube followers will buy anything their heroes recommend. Bottled water (with a squirt of flavouring) is the scam of the century. Quotes: There's nothing quite like the feeling of pure, ice-cold hydration. Some of us get our water for free from the tap. The rest pay for it ? at the cost of roughly $100 billion a year. For the vast majority of Americans, a glass from the tap and a glass from the bottle are virtually identical as far as their health and nutritional quality are concerned. In some cases, publicly-sourced tap may actually be safer since it is usually tested more frequently. There are exceptions, however ? people living near private wells do not enjoy the same rigorous testing as those whose water comes from public sources, and some public sources are not properly screened, as has been seen in Flint, Michigan. --------------- Ye olde English cup of tea (or coffee) wins easily. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 31 01:58:38 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 17:58:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] way to go brits! Message-ID: <00f401d91cbb$6712d5d0$35388170$@rainier66.com> BillK, Max, we are honored by your presence and we are proud of your home country. The British have done extensive enough statistical analysis to publish a paper which would not be allowed to circulate in the USA until Musk bought Twitter: https://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2022/12/05/jme-2022-108449 ?To prevent one COVID-19 hospitalisation over a 6-month period, we estimate that 31?207?42?836 young adults aged 18?29 years must receive a third mRNA vaccine. Booster mandates in young adults are expected to cause a net harm: per COVID-19 hospitalisation prevented, we anticipate at least 18.5 serious adverse events from mRNA vaccines, including 1.5?4.6 booster-associated myopericarditis cases in males (typically requiring hospitalisation)? As we speculated on this site a year ago, for young people the risk of the mRNA covid booster outweighs the benefits. I had no idea the disparity was this big: 18.5 youngsters land in the hospital from the mRNA booster for every one which is prevented. Sheesh, I kinda estimated the risk crossover point was around age 30,but now I think it must be later than that, perhaps 40? Thoughts please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 02:15:54 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 21:15:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] way to go brits! In-Reply-To: <00f401d91cbb$6712d5d0$35388170$@rainier66.com> References: <00f401d91cbb$6712d5d0$35388170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike- I am not anti-vax, but I am anti mRNA technology. There are a lot more problems with these "vaccines" beyond the fact the risk analysis does not work out for young people. Firstly, the nanoparticles carrying mRNA to produce a cytotoxic protein (the spike) do not stay localized to the injection site as promised, and rapidly spread throughout most tissues in the body (to varying degrees based on organ). The mRNA used for the spike protein was also modified to be stable longer, and is turning out to persist way longer than the typical 2-4 days that natural mRNA lasts in the body. There is evidence that it persists at least 90 days, but may persist even longer (the study I saw stopped at 90 days). This means you have a bunch of cells producing spike protein in various tissues that can lead to things like myocarditis, but also autoimmune disorders, and other assorted maladies. More recently, there is some very troubling news coming out of Science mag, that repeated boosters (and even the initial series). After initial vaccination, the expected IgG1/IgG3 immunoglobulins are produced which are typical of an immune reaction against an invader. However, there is quickly a large shift (again exacerbated by boosters) from IgG1/IgG3 to IgG4 which is generally involved in building tolerance to allergens, and should not be happening with a vaccine. This behavior does not occur with Covid vaccines built on other tech like the JNJ one. The exact impact is unknown but there is a signal here that mRNA vaccines may ultimately be telling the immune system to build a tolerance to spike protein. If so, this is a huge problem, and would also explain the papers that have actually shown *negative *efficacy against Covid with repeated boosters. Here is the abstract from the Science paper: Class switch towards non-inflammatory, spike-specific IgG4 antibodies after repeated SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination SCIENCE IMMUNOLOGY 22 Dec 2022 First Release DOI: 10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798 *Abstract* RNA vaccines are efficient preventive measures to combat the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic. High levels of neutralizing SARS-CoV-2-antibodies are an important component of vaccine-induced immunity. Shortly after the initial two mRNA vaccine doses, the IgG response mainly consists of the pro-inflammatory subclasses IgG1 and IgG3. Here, we report that several months after the second vaccination, SARS-CoV-2-specific antibodies were increasingly composed of non-inflammatory IgG4, which were further boosted by a third mRNA vaccination and/or SARS-CoV-2 variant breakthrough infections. IgG4 antibodies among all spike-specific IgG antibodies rose on average from 0.04% shortly after the second vaccination to 19.27% late after the third vaccination. This induction of IgG4 antibodies was not observed after homologous or heterologous SARS-CoV-2 vaccination with adenoviral vectors. Single-cell sequencing and flow cytometry revealed substantial frequencies of IgG4-switched B cells within the spike-binding memory B-cell population (median 14.4%; interquartile range (IQR) 6.7?18.1%) compared to the overall memory B-cell repertoire (median 1.3%; IQR 0.9?2.2%) after three immunizations. *Importantly, this class switch was associated with a reduced capacity of the spike-specific antibodies to mediate antibody-dependent cellular phagocytosis and complement deposition. Since Fc-mediated effector functions are critical for antiviral immunity, these findings may have consequences for the choice and timing of vaccination regimens using mRNA vaccines, including future booster immunizations against SARS-CoV-2.* https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798 Personally, based on reviewing a lot of troubling signals in aggregate, I would stay far away from mRNA technology. There are too many unknowns that were not adequately tested for. I have a teenage daughter and have stuck to my guns on her not getting vaccinated (she's already had Covid along with everyone else in the house regardless of vaccination status in the adults). This cost us an opportunity to send her to a well regarded private high school, but her health is more important. On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 8:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > BillK, Max, we are honored by your presence and we are proud of your home > country. The British have done extensive enough statistical analysis to > publish a paper which would not be allowed to circulate in the USA until > Musk bought Twitter: > > > > > > https://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2022/12/05/jme-2022-108449 > > > > ?To prevent one COVID-19 hospitalisation over a 6-month period, we > estimate that 31 207?42 836 young adults aged 18?29 years must receive a > third mRNA vaccine. Booster mandates in young adults are expected to cause > a net harm: per COVID-19 hospitalisation prevented, we anticipate at least > 18.5 serious adverse events from mRNA vaccines, including 1.5?4.6 > booster-associated myopericarditis cases in males (typically requiring > hospitalisation)? > > > > > > > > As we speculated on this site a year ago, for young people the risk of the > mRNA covid booster outweighs the benefits. I had no idea the disparity was > this big: 18.5 youngsters land in the hospital from the mRNA booster for > every one which is prevented. Sheesh, I kinda estimated the risk crossover > point was around age 30,but now I think it must be later than that, perhaps > 40? Thoughts please? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 02:47:40 2022 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 21:47:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] way to go brits! In-Reply-To: References: <00f401d91cbb$6712d5d0$35388170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 9:18 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike- > > I am not anti-vax, but I am anti mRNA technology. There are a lot more > problems with these "vaccines" beyond the fact the risk analysis does not > work out for young people. Firstly, the nanoparticles carrying mRNA to > produce a cytotoxic protein (the spike) do not stay localized to the > injection site as promised, and rapidly spread throughout most tissues in > the body (to varying degrees based on organ). > > The mRNA used for the spike protein was also modified to be stable longer, > and is turning out to persist way longer than the typical 2-4 days that > natural mRNA lasts in the body. There is evidence that it persists at > least 90 days, but may persist even longer (the study I saw stopped at 90 > days). > ### I agree that the spike-based Covid mRNA vaccines are dangerous and should have never been allowed on the market - but I am not sure if there is a general problem with mRNA vaccines. It looks like the spike protein is itself toxic and the mRNA vaccine causes your body to produce a huge amount of it and in addition the protein is present systemically, rather than mostly confined to the mucosa as in the natural infection. Making a huge amount of a toxic protein in the body sounds like a bad idea and the massive increase in cardiovascular mortality after the Pfizer vaccine seems to confirm there is a problem. However, this does not necessarily mean that mRNA vaccines are bad for you. If you use mRNA to generate a non-toxic but highly antigenic target you should be able to stimulate an immune response without causing unusual toxicity. There are a bunch of mRNA vaccines in the works and so far I haven't heard about a general problem with them. The new personalized melanoma vaccine greatly reduces risk of recurrence or death - by 44%. The vaccine is a marvel - it combines dozens of individually created neo-antigens specifically tailored to a patient's tumor - and created within about a week for each patient! It's pretty amazing - and the difference from the Covid vaccine is that Merck/Moderna published positive mortality results while Pfizer concealed disastrous mortality results. Pfizer executives responsible for this fraud should go to prison and Pfizer should be bankrupted by class-action lawsuits and multi-billion dollar fines - but Moderna might be working their way towards a Nobel prize here. ------------------------------------ > > This means you have a bunch of cells producing spike protein in various > tissues that can lead to things like myocarditis, but also autoimmune > disorders, and other assorted maladies. > > More recently, there is some very troubling news coming out of Science > mag, that repeated boosters (and even the initial series). After initial > vaccination, the expected IgG1/IgG3 immunoglobulins are produced which are > typical of an immune reaction against an invader. However, there is > quickly a large shift (again exacerbated by boosters) from IgG1/IgG3 to > IgG4 which is generally involved in building tolerance to allergens, and > should not be happening with a vaccine. > ### Yes, taking a booster is a really stupid idea. I am still so pissed off for being tricked into taking the original vaccine two years ago.... At least by now my CV mortality risk should no longer be increased, hopefully. ------------------------ > > This behavior does not occur with Covid vaccines built on other tech like > the JNJ one. The exact impact is unknown but there is a signal here that > mRNA vaccines may ultimately be telling the immune system to build a > tolerance to spike protein. If so, this is a huge problem, and would also > explain the papers that have actually shown *negative *efficacy against > Covid with repeated boosters. > > Here is the abstract from the Science paper: > Class switch towards non-inflammatory, spike-specific IgG4 antibodies > after repeated SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination > SCIENCE IMMUNOLOGY > 22 Dec 2022 > First Release > DOI: 10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798 > > *Abstract* > RNA vaccines are efficient preventive measures to combat the SARS-CoV-2 > pandemic. High levels of neutralizing SARS-CoV-2-antibodies are an > important component of vaccine-induced immunity. Shortly after the initial > two mRNA vaccine doses, the IgG response mainly consists of the > pro-inflammatory subclasses IgG1 and IgG3. Here, we report that several > months after the second vaccination, SARS-CoV-2-specific antibodies were > increasingly composed of non-inflammatory IgG4, which were further boosted > by a third mRNA vaccination and/or SARS-CoV-2 variant breakthrough > infections. IgG4 antibodies among all spike-specific IgG antibodies rose on > average from 0.04% shortly after the second vaccination to 19.27% late > after the third vaccination. This induction of IgG4 antibodies was not > observed after homologous or heterologous SARS-CoV-2 vaccination with > adenoviral vectors. Single-cell sequencing and flow cytometry revealed > substantial frequencies of IgG4-switched B cells within the spike-binding > memory B-cell population (median 14.4%; interquartile range (IQR) > 6.7?18.1%) compared to the overall memory B-cell repertoire (median 1.3%; > IQR 0.9?2.2%) after three immunizations. *Importantly, this class switch > was associated with a reduced capacity of the spike-specific antibodies to > mediate antibody-dependent cellular phagocytosis and complement deposition. > Since Fc-mediated effector functions are critical for antiviral immunity, > these findings may have consequences for the choice and timing of > vaccination regimens using mRNA vaccines, including future booster > immunizations against SARS-CoV-2.* > > https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798 > > Personally, based on reviewing a lot of troubling signals in aggregate, I > would stay far away from mRNA technology. There are too many unknowns > that were not adequately tested for. > ### The Pfizer vaccine was criminally mismanaged, yes. And yes, the new vaccine technology must be well tested before wide introduction. I would not take any mRNA vaccine unless I had no choice for now - but if I had melanoma I would definitely sign up for it. -------------------------------------------- > > I have a teenage daughter and have stuck to my guns on her not getting > vaccinated (she's already had Covid along with everyone else in the house > regardless of vaccination status in the adults). This cost us an > opportunity to send her to a well regarded private high school, but her > health is more important. > ### Yes, me too. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 31 02:48:36 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 18:48:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] way to go brits! In-Reply-To: References: <00f401d91cbb$6712d5d0$35388170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002001d91cc2$61dee110$259ca330$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] way to go brits! Spike- >?I am not anti-vax, but I am anti mRNA technology. There are a lot more problems with these "vaccines" beyond the fact the risk analysis does not work out for young people. Firstly, the nanoparticles carrying mRNA to produce a cytotoxic protein (the spike) do not stay localized to the injection site as promised, and rapidly spread throughout most tissues in the body (to varying degrees based on organ). ? >?Here is the abstract from the Science paper: Class switch towards non-inflammatory, spike-specific IgG4 antibodies after repeated SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination SCIENCE IMMUNOLOGY 22 Dec 2022 First Release DOI: 10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798 Abstract ?Importantly, this class switch was associated with a reduced capacity of the spike-specific antibodies to mediate antibody-dependent cellular phagocytosis and complement deposition. ? https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798 Thx Dylan. I am not anti-vax, but I am and have always been anti-mandate. I have always thought that whole notion was wrong wrong wrong on multiple levels, including all of them. Something occurred to me that perhaps Dr. Rafal can comment upon. The medical community must have suspected this long before the Brits published what must have been a very painful study for them. These doctors were compelled to go along, and in the states it was required of them. They must have already known or suspected, since they would seldom see a 20-something patient, vaccinated or otherwise. So they would already think the vaccines don?t do much for the young. But they would see vaccine adverse reactions. If the medics suspected this, it would explain a lotta lotta, such as Rafal?s attitude and my own doctor?s attitude. She saw all this too. Here's a kicker for yas: I have regular email contact with ordinary proles. This is partially because I am an actual ordinary prole, but it?s more than that: I do online genealogy and contact people regularly to collaborate on family trees. I have found that people will freely share that kind of info with strangers, some even stranger than I am: when they catch something, what it was, how bad it was, reactions to covid vaccines, that kinda thing. This is the kind of info people were not allowed to share on Twitter: an ordinary prole could be suspended from that forum just for posting anything the CDC didn?t like. The FBI saw to it that this policy was enforced on Twitter. A tool that could have enabled us to see that signal was intentionally disabled. We are now three years into the covid pandemic and nearly two years into the vaccines. There has been enough time and enough data to discover what the Brits are just now publishing, had we the resource of allowing ordinary proles free access to share their covid and vaccine experiences. We?screwed?up?big?time. There is no soft way to say it, my extropian friends: we (humanity) screwed up bigtime. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 03:37:40 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 22:37:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] way to go brits! In-Reply-To: References: <00f401d91cbb$6712d5d0$35388170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Rafal- Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I will admit on reflection that I may be guilty of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I definitely see the potential of mRNA tech, and the melanoma trial you mentioned is very exciting to hear about (I wasn't aware of it). My two big concerns with the tech are that the nanoparticles get wide distribution in multiple organ systems, and that the modification to keep the mRNA stable is problematic. Out of curiosity, do you know if the melanoma vaccine is using N1-methyl-pseudouridine like the WuFlu ones are? I'm curious if the same shift in immunoglobulins to IgG4 is seen with the melanoma vaccine, but would suspect it won't be if N1-methyl-pseudouridine is not used in the formulation. I'll have to read up on it though! As far as the current crimes against humanity, I suspect a lot of the problems are coming from the manufactured spike protein interacting with endothelial cells lining the blood vessels, but that is just speculation until some actual science is allowed to be done on it. On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 9:48 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > However, this does not necessarily mean that mRNA vaccines are bad for > you. If you use mRNA to generate a non-toxic but highly antigenic target > you should be able to stimulate an immune response without causing unusual > toxicity. There are a bunch of mRNA vaccines in the works and so far I > haven't heard about a general problem with them. The new personalized > melanoma vaccine greatly reduces risk of recurrence or death - by 44%. The > vaccine is a marvel - it combines dozens of individually created > neo-antigens specifically tailored to a patient's tumor - and created > within about a week for each patient! > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 31 04:39:19 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:39:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] way to go brits! In-Reply-To: References: <00f401d91cbb$6712d5d0$35388170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001401d91cd1$d93063b0$8b912b10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat ? ? >?As far as the current crimes against humanity, I suspect a lot of the problems are coming from the manufactured spike protein interacting with endothelial cells lining the blood vessels, but that is just speculation until some actual science is allowed to be done on it? Dylan About a year ago I went on and on about what if? someone were to get a crazy high number of jabs, perhaps in order to get vaccine passports to sell. Because of legalities, such people couldn?t share what happened to them on a public-access platform such as Twitter. But think about it: pretty dang much any wacky thing humans can imagine to do, some wacky human will do it, completely without exception. Further proof: any time I come up with some scheme to make a buttload of money, someone somewhere else has already thought of it and done it. Conclusion: someone somewhere has gotten over a 100 jabs by now. But we don?t know what happened to that person. We have no way of finding out that important medical data, because of legalities. From what I am now hearing, if there is such a person, she might have died just from having her tissues flooded with spike protein (oh how I really dislike that name for the bad-guy proteins.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 22:45:40 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 16:45:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: a few thoughts In-Reply-To: <011401d91736$0f3dee10$2db9ca30$@rainier66.com> References: <011401d91736$0f3dee10$2db9ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: *Subject:* a few thoughts I am extremely susceptible to road rage and in general, losing my temper - quick to anger over frustration (it doesn't help that I am a Type A and the world if full of people who are Type Bs, it would seem). I found a cure, or a partial cure; Forgiveness. I am not a Christian but am a follower of Jesus in this regard. I tried forgiving drivers who cut me off, etc. It was really hard but I stuck to it and it works. You have to do it immediately. It also works outside the car. I can't think of many situations where getting angry is useful. It just makes most of us do stupid things we regret later. Never mind what those morons deserve - they certainly don't deserve forgiveness (or do they?). But I need it for myself. It may lengthen my life, as I have a weak heart and don't need to push it. Revenge and retribution seem to be the weapons of many people and I think it is bad for their health, esp. since most of them are not going to take any action anyway to get the revenge etc. Anger can last for years in the form of grudges, and I have dealt with those too, successfully, by forgiveness. No, I don't believe in poetic justice. Morons get away with things all the time but I am not going to let them ruin my day or life. Happy New Year! bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Dec 31 23:43:02 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 18:43:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: a few thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <011401d91736$0f3dee10$2db9ca30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: IMHO you are quite correct: rage and retribution mostly hurt the one who feels those emotions. I was brought up Christian, and taught "pray for those who despitefully use you". When I can hold to this, it is very helpful for my own peace of mind. Regards, MB William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > *Subject:* a few thoughts > > > > > I am extremely susceptible to road rage and in general, losing my temper - > quick to anger over frustration (it doesn't help that I am a Type A and the > world if full of people who are Type Bs, it would seem). I found a cure, > or a partial cure; > > > > Forgiveness. I am not a Christian but am a follower of Jesus in this > regard. I tried forgiving drivers who cut me off, etc. It was really hard > but I stuck to it and it works. You have to do it immediately. It also > works outside the car. I can't think of many situations where getting > angry is useful. It just makes most of us do stupid things we regret > later. > > > > Never mind what those morons deserve - they certainly don't deserve > forgiveness (or do they?). But I need it for myself. It may lengthen my > life, as I have a weak heart and don't need to push it. > > > > Revenge and retribution seem to be the weapons of many people and I think > it is bad for their health, esp. since most of them are not going to take > any action anyway to get the revenge etc. Anger can last for years in the > form of grudges, and I have dealt with those too, successfully, by > forgiveness. > > > > No, I don't believe in poetic justice. Morons get away with things all the > time but I am not going to let them ruin my day or life. > > > Happy New Year! > > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >