From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 04:11:07 2022 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2022 21:11:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Adam Bates on viewing social media as monopolies Message-ID: ?The fun part about all the right wingers spewing the utter nonsense that Twitter and Facebook are "monopolies" (yes, plural) is that if they actually start believing their own lies, they'll do crazy things like spend tens of billions of dollars to take over Twitter thinking they can then just extort all the users for cash, only to find that they[the users] can just go to one of the many competing services for free.? Regards, Dan From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 05:57:30 2022 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 01:57:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don?t think it?s fair to say ?truth has a liberal bias? as much a conservative religious politicians lie more openly. As soon as you exclude religion, it seems that there is a conservative bias to truth. SR Ballard > On Oct 28, 2022, at 12:22 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > If software can drive a car, is there any reason to think it can?t moderate content? > > Recognizing what words mean is a different sort of task, and rather more difficult, than recognizing safe physical conditions on the road. In theory it could someday be done effectively, but not without a lot more work than has gone into Tesla - and once it was, we would be much closer to "true" AI. > > > That has nothing to do with politics. > > The political angle is, as has been famously put, "Reality has a liberal bias." Or to put it more accurately, many so-called "conservative" politicians rely on outright lies, far more on average than so-called "liberal" politicians these days, to the point that anything enforcing truth in politics is going to be seen as having an anti-conservative-politician bias. Twitter's moderation tries to veer toward verified truth. > >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2022 at 6:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> >> OK so Elon owns Twitter now. If you and I bought that outfit, we would do the same thing Elon is doing: working towards automating the content moderation. Isn?t that a perfectly obvious thing to do? If software can drive a car, is there any reason to think it can?t moderate content? Couldn?t you have something like the way car automation works, where a human still hasta sit behind the wheel to kinda watch over it? You could have humans (way fewer of them probably) to just supervise the software. You could make the software filters public. >> >> >> >> Wouldn?t you do the same if you owned Twitter? Humans are expensive, software is cheap. That has nothing to do with politics. Nothing personal, just business. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 11:02:17 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:02:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 at 06:00, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > I don?t think it?s fair to say ?truth has a liberal bias? as much a conservative religious politicians lie more openly. As soon as you exclude religion, it seems that there is a conservative bias to truth. > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ Truth / Reality just exists. It's not biased. It doesn't care about human ideologies. Confirmation bias is the problem with humans. When Truth or Reality doesn't agree with human beliefs (liberal or conservative) then it must be biased. ?Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.? ? Philip K. Dick BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 15:41:53 2022 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 08:41:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF1EB5D-67CA-44C5-A11D-7889890DA1D5@gmail.com> On Nov 3, 2022, at 4:05 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?On Thu, 3 Nov 2022 at 06:00, SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> I don?t think it?s fair to say ?truth has a liberal bias? as much a conservative religious politicians lie more openly. As soon as you exclude religion, it seems that there is a conservative bias to truth. >> >> SR Ballard >> _______________________________________________ > > > Truth / Reality just exists. It's not biased. It doesn't care about > human ideologies. > Confirmation bias is the problem with humans. When Truth or Reality > doesn't agree with human beliefs (liberal or conservative) then it > must be biased. > > ?Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.? > ? Philip K. Dick I believe we can look this in terms of Bayesianism. People who self-identify as liberal or conservative (in the US at least, though I doubt this peculiarly American) tend to cluster around a certain respective sets of priors and respective sets of biases in how they?ll approach information and even where they?ll get it from. Musk is an example of those. Notice how he quickly sympathized if not promoted with the Paul Pelosi was attacked by his lover story. (I don?t buy this story. It?s typical nonsense you see these days.) Granted, with any devoting news story, there are bound to be new information and new interpretations that come about. I recall years ago with the Boston marathon attacks how a now as we know unrelated explosion was initially thought to be part of it. And a libertarian friend of mine, who was an Alex Jones listener, told me the media are covering up something that the Tsarnaev brothers were fall guys for a federal false flag (of course! It?s always a false flag with the Jones crowd). He just couldn?t accept that maybe ongoing reporting can make mistakes. To him it was all scripted beforehand and mistakes were slip ups in the agreed upon lie. I also read truth is X to mean X is more likely to be closer to the truth or biased less toward ideology or something like that. In other words, an X person is far less likely to reject evidence because it doesn?t fit their ideology or partisanship or particular leader?s statements ? or even less likely to reject it because they have a bad overall methodology. (There?s a confusing factor in the US now because of the alt-right crowd wanting to trigger or own liberals or progressives. In which case, it?s hard to tell if they believe something over whether they?re merely saying something to anger the other side.) Regards, Dan From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 3 16:21:28 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 09:21:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: <4AF1EB5D-67CA-44C5-A11D-7889890DA1D5@gmail.com> References: <4AF1EB5D-67CA-44C5-A11D-7889890DA1D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat >... I recall years ago with the Boston marathon attacks how a now as we know unrelated explosion was initially thought to be part of it. And a libertarian friend of mine, who was an Alex Jones listener, told me the media are covering up something that the Tsarnaev brothers were fall guys for a federal false flag (of course! It?s always a false flag with the Jones crowd). ... Dan _______________________________________________ Eh, the ALEX Jones crowd please Dan. Do let us specify, when using such a common name. {8^D Ja otherwise however. The FBI surely didn't do itself any favors in the past several years. They have been caught in at least six huge scandals, that are completely verified, and all are objective yes/no on whether they are real conspiracies which were once thought to be conspiracy "theories." 1. The FBI covered up the Biden laptop before the 2020 election, caught the guy who did it, no punishment. 2. They falsified evidence to get a FISA warrant, caught and convicted the perp (Kevin Clinesmith) who never went to prison. 3. They leaked to the press, caught the guy (FBI Director McCabe) proved that he lied to the FBI. He never went to prison. 4. They haven't explained to us why Ray Epps is not in prison, even though he is on video committing crimes (inciting riots and crossing police lines.) 5. The FBI lovers Strzok and Page conspiracy to undermine a sitting POTUS. 6. FBI director Comey's role and others, in failure to brief POTUS on Operation Crossfire Hurricane. Are not all of those confirmed conspiracy theories? spike From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 17:03:23 2022 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:03:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> References: <4AF1EB5D-67CA-44C5-A11D-7889890DA1D5@gmail.com> <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Conspiracies doth never prosper, for if they prosper none dare call them conspiracies. On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 10:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > >... I recall years ago with the Boston marathon attacks how a now as we > know unrelated explosion was initially thought to be part of it. And a > libertarian friend of mine, who was an Alex Jones listener, told me the > media are covering up something that the Tsarnaev brothers were fall guys > for a federal false flag (of course! It?s always a false flag with the > Jones crowd). ... > Dan > _______________________________________________ > > > Eh, the ALEX Jones crowd please Dan. Do let us specify, when using such a > common name. {8^D > > Ja otherwise however. The FBI surely didn't do itself any favors in the > past several years. They have been caught in at least six huge scandals, > that are completely verified, and all are objective yes/no on whether they > are real conspiracies which were once thought to be conspiracy "theories." > > 1. The FBI covered up the Biden laptop before the 2020 election, caught > the guy who did it, no punishment. > > 2. They falsified evidence to get a FISA warrant, caught and convicted > the perp (Kevin Clinesmith) who never went to prison. > > 3. They leaked to the press, caught the guy (FBI Director McCabe) proved > that he lied to the FBI. He never went to prison. > > 4. They haven't explained to us why Ray Epps is not in prison, even > though he is on video committing crimes (inciting riots and crossing police > lines.) > > 5. The FBI lovers Strzok and Page conspiracy to undermine a sitting POTUS. > > 6. FBI director Comey's role and others, in failure to brief POTUS on > Operation Crossfire Hurricane. > > Are not all of those confirmed conspiracy theories? > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 3 17:20:55 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 10:20:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: References: <4AF1EB5D-67CA-44C5-A11D-7889890DA1D5@gmail.com> <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002b01d8efa8$a25d3030$e7179090$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] >?Conspiracies doth never prosper, for if they prosper none dare call them conspiracies? Darin I dare call all six of those conspiracies Darin. I don?t know what else to call them. They were all once called conspiracy theories, and all six came back eventually as conspiracy fact. They were literal conspiracies, illegal acts perpetrated by more than one person in service of government. All six of those can be assigned a truth value now with a simple Boolean one-bit answer, are these cases fact or fiction. All six come back as conspiracy fact. OK, so? now what? spike On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 10:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? _______________________________________________ ? >?Ja otherwise however. The FBI surely didn't do itself any favors in the past several years. They have been caught in at least six huge scandals, that are completely verified, and all are objective yes/no on whether they are real conspiracies which were once thought to be conspiracy "theories."? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 18:44:02 2022 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:44:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> References: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <3E7BD19F-4657-4366-BC78-7A0D85732422@gmail.com> On Nov 3, 2022, at 9:23 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat >> ... I recall years ago with the Boston marathon attacks how a now as we know unrelated explosion was initially thought to be part of it. And a libertarian friend of mine, who was an Alex Jones listener, told me the media are covering up something that the Tsarnaev brothers were fall guys for a federal false flag (of course! It?s always a false flag with the Jones crowd). ... > Dan > _______________________________________________ > > > Eh, the ALEX Jones crowd please Dan. Do let us specify, when using such a common name. {8^D > > Ja otherwise however. The FBI surely didn't do itself any favors in the past several years. They have been caught in at least six huge scandals, that are completely verified, and all are objective yes/no on whether they are real conspiracies which were once thought to be conspiracy "theories." > > 1. The FBI covered up the Biden laptop before the 2020 election, caught the guy who did it, no punishment. > > 2. They falsified evidence to get a FISA warrant, caught and convicted the perp (Kevin Clinesmith) who never went to prison. > > 3. They leaked to the press, caught the guy (FBI Director McCabe) proved that he lied to the FBI. He never went to prison. > > 4. They haven't explained to us why Ray Epps is not in prison, even though he is on video committing crimes (inciting riots and crossing police lines.) > > 5. The FBI lovers Strzok and Page conspiracy to undermine a sitting POTUS. > > 6. FBI director Comey's role and others, in failure to brief POTUS on Operation Crossfire Hurricane. > > Are not all of those confirmed conspiracy theories? I don?t deny conspiracies in general, though the particular person I mentioned was an Alex Jones listener. Note how you switched that to ?Alex Jones crowd? dismissively. Do you believe the Boston marathon bombing was a false flag? How about Sandy Hook? How about George Soros: do you believe he was a Nazi collaborator? Or do you think that there?s any credibility to the view that Obama is a Muslim? That?s all stuff on Alex Jones? show and my friend if he doesn?t believe it tells me one must have an open mind. (Notably, he doesn?t keep an open mind about anti-GOP conspiracies, such as Trump might be a Russian agent or Putin might be blackmailing Trump with videos of Trump being peed on by hookers. And none of those get traction with Alex Jones anyhow. There?s a definite Rightward tilt to what whacky conspiracy is viewed as credible.) Sure, conspiracy?s happen and the FBI is certain known for its various operations that should be viewed as a threat to freedom?. You mention only one the ones generally have traction with conservatives and Republicans. (I know you claim to be a libertarian, but deviate toward conservative and Republican stuff. Or I?ve never seen you say, ?the Democrats or liberals or progressive are definitely right about this while the Republicans (or conservatives or alt right) are ideology blind to it.?) How about many uses by the FBI of informants as agents provocateur, especially in Mosques after 9/11? How about the FBI spying on peace activists from the Vietnam Era to today? The FBI?s abuses are not recent. They extend back to its formation, in fact. But it?s kind of Right wing talking point that the FBI has been morally pure until recent years (either with Biden or with Obama). No mention of how removing the few safeguards against the FBI running amok ? remember a certain Republican president doing so in the early 2000s ? maybe wasn?t such a good idea. Side note: How many FBI directors have been Democrats? The only one I?m aware served a mere 71 days as acting director. The rest were all Republicans. Why is that? (This isn?t to blame the GOP. The Democratic Party has played second fiddle to the GOP on expanding federal police powers and abuses. The American police state is a bipartisan project. But, notably, the more Left a Democrat is, the less likely they?re to support this. Moderates like Biden, Clinton, and Obama helped to add to the police state, but folks AOC don?t. So it?s really an example of how far to the Right American mainstream politics are.) Regards, Dan From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 19:01:26 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 15:01:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: <3E7BD19F-4657-4366-BC78-7A0D85732422@gmail.com> References: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> <3E7BD19F-4657-4366-BC78-7A0D85732422@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41583869-145E-4113-9BAF-DA56ED78F598@gmail.com> Perhaps I?m mistaken, but isn?t political discussion banned on this email list? > On Nov 3, 2022, at 2:44 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Nov 3, 2022, at 9:23 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat >>> ... I recall years ago with the Boston marathon attacks how a now as we know unrelated explosion was initially thought to be part of it. And a libertarian friend of mine, who was an Alex Jones listener, told me the media are covering up something that the Tsarnaev brothers were fall guys for a federal false flag (of course! It?s always a false flag with the Jones crowd). ... >> Dan >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Eh, the ALEX Jones crowd please Dan. Do let us specify, when using such a common name. {8^D >> >> Ja otherwise however. The FBI surely didn't do itself any favors in the past several years. They have been caught in at least six huge scandals, that are completely verified, and all are objective yes/no on whether they are real conspiracies which were once thought to be conspiracy "theories." >> >> 1. The FBI covered up the Biden laptop before the 2020 election, caught the guy who did it, no punishment. >> >> 2. They falsified evidence to get a FISA warrant, caught and convicted the perp (Kevin Clinesmith) who never went to prison. >> >> 3. They leaked to the press, caught the guy (FBI Director McCabe) proved that he lied to the FBI. He never went to prison. >> >> 4. They haven't explained to us why Ray Epps is not in prison, even though he is on video committing crimes (inciting riots and crossing police lines.) >> >> 5. The FBI lovers Strzok and Page conspiracy to undermine a sitting POTUS. >> >> 6. FBI director Comey's role and others, in failure to brief POTUS on Operation Crossfire Hurricane. >> >> Are not all of those confirmed conspiracy theories? > > I don?t deny conspiracies in general, though the particular person I mentioned was an Alex Jones listener. Note how you switched that to ?Alex Jones crowd? dismissively. Do you believe the Boston marathon bombing was a false flag? How about Sandy Hook? How about George Soros: do you believe he was a Nazi collaborator? Or do you think that there?s any credibility to the view that Obama is a Muslim? That?s all stuff on Alex Jones? show and my friend if he doesn?t believe it tells me one must have an open mind. (Notably, he doesn?t keep an open mind about anti-GOP conspiracies, such as Trump might be a Russian agent or Putin might be blackmailing Trump with videos of Trump being peed on by hookers. And none of those get traction with Alex Jones anyhow. There?s a definite Rightward tilt to what whacky conspiracy is viewed as credible.) > > Sure, conspiracy?s happen and the FBI is certain known for its various operations that should be viewed as a threat to freedom?. > > You mention only one the ones generally have traction with conservatives and Republicans. (I know you claim to be a libertarian, but deviate toward conservative and Republican stuff. Or I?ve never seen you say, ?the Democrats or liberals or progressive are definitely right about this while the Republicans (or conservatives or alt right) are ideology blind to it.?) How about many uses by the FBI of informants as agents provocateur, especially in Mosques after 9/11? How about the FBI spying on peace activists from the Vietnam Era to today? > > The FBI?s abuses are not recent. They extend back to its formation, in fact. But it?s kind of Right wing talking point that the FBI has been morally pure until recent years (either with Biden or with Obama). No mention of how removing the few safeguards against the FBI running amok ? remember a certain Republican president doing so in the early 2000s ? maybe wasn?t such a good idea. > > Side note: How many FBI directors have been Democrats? The only one I?m aware served a mere 71 days as acting director. The rest were all Republicans. Why is that? (This isn?t to blame the GOP. The Democratic Party has played second fiddle to the GOP on expanding federal police powers and abuses. The American police state is a bipartisan project. But, notably, the more Left a Democrat is, the less likely they?re to support this. Moderates like Biden, Clinton, and Obama helped to add to the police state, but folks AOC don?t. So it?s really an example of how far to the Right American mainstream politics are.) > > Regards, > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 20:10:12 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 15:10:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: <41583869-145E-4113-9BAF-DA56ED78F598@gmail.com> References: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> <3E7BD19F-4657-4366-BC78-7A0D85732422@gmail.com> <41583869-145E-4113-9BAF-DA56ED78F598@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, it is. Should have been posted on the other list bill w On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:03 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Perhaps I?m mistaken, but isn?t political discussion banned on this email > list? > > On Nov 3, 2022, at 2:44 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Nov 3, 2022, at 9:23 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > > ... I recall years ago with the Boston marathon attacks how a now as we > know unrelated explosion was initially thought to be part of it. And a > libertarian friend of mine, who was an Alex Jones listener, told me the > media are covering up something that the Tsarnaev brothers were fall guys > for a federal false flag (of course! It?s always a false flag with the > Jones crowd). ... > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > > > Eh, the ALEX Jones crowd please Dan. Do let us specify, when using such a > common name. {8^D > > Ja otherwise however. The FBI surely didn't do itself any favors in the > past several years. They have been caught in at least six huge scandals, > that are completely verified, and all are objective yes/no on whether they > are real conspiracies which were once thought to be conspiracy "theories." > > 1. The FBI covered up the Biden laptop before the 2020 election, caught > the guy who did it, no punishment. > > 2. They falsified evidence to get a FISA warrant, caught and convicted > the perp (Kevin Clinesmith) who never went to prison. > > 3. They leaked to the press, caught the guy (FBI Director McCabe) proved > that he lied to the FBI. He never went to prison. > > 4. They haven't explained to us why Ray Epps is not in prison, even > though he is on video committing crimes (inciting riots and crossing police > lines.) > > 5. The FBI lovers Strzok and Page conspiracy to undermine a sitting POTUS. > > 6. FBI director Comey's role and others, in failure to brief POTUS on > Operation Crossfire Hurricane. > > Are not all of those confirmed conspiracy theories? > > > I don?t deny conspiracies in general, though the particular person I > mentioned was an Alex Jones listener. Note how you switched that to ?Alex > Jones crowd? dismissively. Do you believe the Boston marathon bombing was a > false flag? How about Sandy Hook? How about George Soros: do you believe he > was a Nazi collaborator? Or do you think that there?s any credibility to > the view that Obama is a Muslim? That?s all stuff on Alex Jones? show and > my friend if he doesn?t believe it tells me one must have an open mind. > (Notably, he doesn?t keep an open mind about anti-GOP conspiracies, such as > Trump might be a Russian agent or Putin might be blackmailing Trump with > videos of Trump being peed on by hookers. And none of those get traction > with Alex Jones anyhow. There?s a definite Rightward tilt to what whacky > conspiracy is viewed as credible.) > > Sure, conspiracy?s happen and the FBI is certain known for its various > operations that should be viewed as a threat to freedom?. > > You mention only one the ones generally have traction with conservatives > and Republicans. (I know you claim to be a libertarian, but deviate toward > conservative and Republican stuff. Or I?ve never seen you say, ?the > Democrats or liberals or progressive are definitely right about this while > the Republicans (or conservatives or alt right) are ideology blind to it.?) > How about many uses by the FBI of informants as agents provocateur, > especially in Mosques after 9/11? How about the FBI spying on peace > activists from the Vietnam Era to today? > > The FBI?s abuses are not recent. They extend back to its formation, in > fact. But it?s kind of Right wing talking point that the FBI has been > morally pure until recent years (either with Biden or with Obama). No > mention of how removing the few safeguards against the FBI running amok ? > remember a certain Republican president doing so in the early 2000s ? maybe > wasn?t such a good idea. > > Side note: How many FBI directors have been Democrats? The only one I?m > aware served a mere 71 days as acting director. The rest were all > Republicans. Why is that? (This isn?t to blame the GOP. The Democratic > Party has played second fiddle to the GOP on expanding federal police > powers and abuses. The American police state is a bipartisan project. But, > notably, the more Left a Democrat is, the less likely they?re to support > this. Moderates like Biden, Clinton, and Obama helped to add to the police > state, but folks AOC don?t. So it?s really an example of how far to the > Right American mainstream politics are.) > > Regards, > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 3 21:35:42 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 14:35:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: <41583869-145E-4113-9BAF-DA56ED78F598@gmail.com> References: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> <3E7BD19F-4657-4366-BC78-7A0D85732422@gmail.com> <41583869-145E-4113-9BAF-DA56ED78F598@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b501d8efcc$39b6ae70$ad240b50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] >?Perhaps I?m mistaken, but isn?t political discussion banned on this email list? Gadersd No, Gadersd but thanks for asking. Such posts were never banned and are allowed now. To have a viable list, we must respect each other and treat each other the way one might at an in-person party, with social grace and constraint. No topic is banned. We had a lot of animosity in the past leading to flame wars, the worst of which happened while I was on a two week camping trip away from the internet along the Ohanapecosh River, which is why I decided to hand off the ExI moderation to another?eh? life form? which is now not identified, even by species or home planet. That experiment was a success: I noticed that no one specifically criticizes ExiMod and everyone here treats others with respect, since one never knows if one is attacking ExiMod ExiModself. (Note: ExiMod?s pronouns are ExiMod and ExiMod (sheesh how can one resist the temptation to ridicule the whole pronoun silliness? (I struggle and fail on that one.))) If one feels some political post is relevant, go ahead. Do refrain from personal attack for that is not welcome here. Note that the Extropian Institute was founded in politics in a sense: it was the libertarian wing of the transhumanist movement. That?s what attracted me here 28 years ago. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 3 21:43:08 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 14:43:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: References: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> <3E7BD19F-4657-4366-BC78-7A0D85732422@gmail.com> <41583869-145E-4113-9BAF-DA56ED78F598@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c201d8efcd$43f42ec0$cbdc8c40$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] >?Yes, it is. Should have been posted on the other list bill w Clarification: US politics are not of primary concern to this list, but they are not banned last I heard. There is a parallel list where political posts are welcome, and where they should mostly go, along with personal attacks if you wish. You really can do that sorta thing there, flame others to your heart?s content, racism is allowed, sexism, any kind of current non-PC-anything can be posted on Extropolis. I don?t have a link to it and don?t hang out there, but did while it was being formed. It isn?t my thing. I would prefer to stay a little closer to civilization. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 3 22:54:20 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 15:54:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: References: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> <3E7BD19F-4657-4366-BC78-7A0D85732422@gmail.com> <41583869-145E-4113-9BAF-DA56ED78F598@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ea01d8efd7$36a3c820$a3eb5860$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] >?Yes, it is. Should have been posted on the other list bill w Bill, the reason this is (I think) highly relevant here is that if one gets into a very specific discussion about that topic, often the conclusion by all participants is something like: Well, OK apparently the government did commit some crimes, but? in this particular case, the FBI just didn?t trust the bastard. Ja, with that I will agree, however? now the bastard doesn?t trust the FBI. Well, what a surprise, imagine that. And? the bastard might come back into a position where he is their boss, for the bastard is now and has been the front runner in the political betting. And? the bastard now knows that this organization that he does not trust are capable of all manner of devious tricks, which are illegal but are now no longer unprecedented (they set the precedent on him.) But wait, it gets worse. The bastard is the front runner in the betting, but there is another bastard who is the second runner who also doesn?t trust the FBI for the same reason (imagine that.) The current POTUS is the third runner, and if he has any sense, he wouldn?t trust the FBI either, after what we have seen. Think about it. That is huge. It now opens the door to whoever is in the position of POTUS to use the FBI for opposition research, but it is far more powerful than any opposition research he needs to pay for, far more powerful than anything he could buy, since the FBI has options and methods such as falsifying evidence to get secret FISA warrants. As Samantha Atkins warned us over twenty years ago: this is dangerous as all hell: unaccountable power, which will eventually be abused. She was right on with that warning, right exactly on. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 22:59:56 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 15:59:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: <00b501d8efcc$39b6ae70$ad240b50$@rainier66.com> References: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> <3E7BD19F-4657-4366-BC78-7A0D85732422@gmail.com> <41583869-145E-4113-9BAF-DA56ED78F598@gmail.com> <00b501d8efcc$39b6ae70$ad240b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:37 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I decided to hand off the ExI moderation to another?eh? life form? which > is now not identified, even by species or home planet. > > > > That experiment was a success: I noticed that no one specifically > criticizes ExiMod and everyone here treats others with respect, since one > never knows if one is attacking ExiMod ExiModself. (Note: ExiMod?s > pronouns are ExiMod and ExiMod (sheesh how can one resist the temptation to > ridicule the whole pronoun silliness? (I struggle and fail on that one.))) > When will ExciMod run for US president, and on what issues primarily? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 3 23:10:28 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 16:10:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: References: <001301d8efa0$54b67880$fe236980$@rainier66.com> <3E7BD19F-4657-4366-BC78-7A0D85732422@gmail.com> <41583869-145E-4113-9BAF-DA56ED78F598@gmail.com> <00b501d8efcc$39b6ae70$ad240b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010201d8efd9$775e2570$661a7050$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >? When will ExciMod run for US president, and on what issues primarily? Assuming ExiMod met the legal requirements for that office, that would be a tragic waste of a perfectly good ExiMod. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Thu Nov 3 23:29:17 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 16:29:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Truth has a liberal bias [elon on twitter] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like this. Reality is larger than our grasp of it. While we shouldn't let ourselves be bullied out of our principles, we should never discount the possibility that we lack information critical to understanding a given issue. I do think that a recommitment to truth for its own sake would benefit the political discussion at the moment. I recognize the irony that each side accuses the other of being "post-truth." And also that there are more than two sides, which I think all of us here probably feel keenly. Tara Maya > On Nov 3, 2022, at 4:02 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > Truth / Reality just exists. It's not biased. It doesn't care about > human ideologies. > Confirmation bias is the problem with humans. When Truth or Reality > doesn't agree with human beliefs (liberal or conservative) then it > must be biased. > > ?Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.? > ? Philip K. Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 07:10:29 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 08:10:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] A conversation on posthuman transitions Message-ID: Turing Church podcast. A conversation on posthuman transitions. With transgender transhumanist Khannea Suntzu and filmmaker Brian den Hartog. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/podcast-a-conversation-on-posthuman#details From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 4 13:20:00 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 06:20:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] flipped classroom model Message-ID: <003e01d8f050$24ee3330$6eca9990$@rainier66.com> I am pondering the impact of that year of covid shutdown on schools. Our local high school has some of the teachers using a flipped classroom model, where the students listed to the lectures at home on their own time (particularly in those areas which never change, physics, chemistry, math, etc) then in the classroom they work on homework or get help from the teacher. That makes a lot more sense than having these veteran teachers give the same lecture year after year after year, then afterwards some of the students do all the homework, some do nothing, some do some. Looks to me like engineering and science oriented colleges now have that same option in any major which does not require group classroom discussion. Many or perhaps most of the students would not need to reside on campus or even come there more than once or twice a week, if that. But how would they get the requisite sexual gratification? And where would they go to drink beer and raise hell? What happens with their semi-professional sports teams? What about the traditional four-year higher education model when many students become empowered to finish sooner? That could change everything. This technology could tragically reduce costs and save time. The damage to traditional university education models could be the most lasting scar left by covid. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 17:51:05 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:51:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] too much Message-ID: How much is too much? You only know after you have reached that point, when it is too late. Context: I just got over a serious case of pancreatitis (is there any other kind?). So I will be meeting with my GI and a nutritionist next week to go over my diet. Naturally I want to push the envelope and have as much saturated fat (the culprit in my attack, I am told) as I can (though I will not be reprising my evening glut of ice cream (about 1/3 of a carton)). So, I will be told not to have too much. But what is 'too much'? Duh - I think I am being patronized when I am told not to do something too much, as if I had no idea when to quit anything. Why would I do anything too much unless I was just a careless idiot who might be showing off to someone? I will report after my meetings. I suspect that no one will tell me how much ice cream I can have. (you should see the post-pancreatitis eating plan they gave me - a roach would starve to death on it). bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 20:00:53 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2022 15:00:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software Message-ID: Do any of you use such software and can recommend it? Thanks! ; bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 21:27:21 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2022 21:27:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 at 20:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Do any of you use such software and can recommend it? > Thanks! ; bill w > _______________________________________________ As the USA medical system is privatised they have been reluctant to allow patients access to their medical records. But the federal law has recently changed. See: Quote: Call it data liberation day: Patients can now access all their health records digitally By Casey Ross Oct. 6, 2022 -------------- If you search for 'free app us personal health records' you can find some apps that look quite useful. BillK From max at maxmore.com Mon Nov 7 15:41:23 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 15:41:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All but impossible to access our medical records? That's not my experience. I was easily able to get doctor's notes, MRI scan results, and other information when I asked. ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2022 2:27 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] personal medical record software On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 at 20:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Do any of you use such software and can recommend it? > Thanks! ; bill w > _______________________________________________ As the USA medical system is privatised they have been reluctant to allow patients access to their medical records. But the federal law has recently changed. See: Quote: Call it data liberation day: Patients can now access all their health records digitally By Casey Ross Oct. 6, 2022 -------------- If you search for 'free app us personal health records' you can find some apps that look quite useful. BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Nov 7 16:27:28 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 11:27:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <655d1cb1-7666-215f-f931-ec136b3b46f4@main.nc.us> Maybe it depends on the doctor? It took me months to get my records *transferred* to a new doctor... I personally requested the transfer in Oct 2021 and in Dec 2021 they had not been sent. At the new doctor's office I filled out a FAX form again requesting the transfer but in April 2022 they had not been sent. Not sure when they finally arrived, but by Oct 2022 they were at the new doctor's office. And the whole thing was electronic, there was NO paper involved whatsoever except the one FAX form I filled out at the new doctor's office. So the new doc was working "in the dark", so to speak, for a year. I had only a my own personal records to show him. I was not impressed. Good thing I was not ill! Cannot imagine how long I'd have waited if *I* wanted those records myself. YMMV. Regards, MB Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > All but impossible to access our medical records? That's not my experience. I was easily able to get doctor's notes, MRI scan results, and other information when I asked. From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 7 16:37:38 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 08:37:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006f01d8f2c7$400a2510$c01e6f30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] personal medical record software >.All but impossible to access our medical records? That's not my experience. I was easily able to get doctor's notes, MRI scan results, and other information when I asked. Same here, but it is up to you to archive the information. I do recommend it, if for instance you have blood tests done regularly. You can spot trends and such. Do it, lads. Do it. spike _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natashavita-more.com Mon Nov 7 17:44:09 2022 From: natasha at natashavita-more.com (Natasha natashavita-more.com) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 17:44:09 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist News - H+ November 2022 Message-ID: https://conta.cc/3fB8lei [https://files.constantcontact.com/b5fcc531801/136c08ec-02c8-4214-8ca3-43b789e961fb.png?rdr=true] TRANSHUMANIST NEWS: November 2022 You don't want to miss this! Upcoming Longevity Conferences H+ Academy: Dr. Michael Rose Shout Out: Nell Watson XPrize: ANA Avatar XPRIZE Center for Transhumanist Studies November 2022 | Issue 11: New conta.cc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 7 17:52:58 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 09:52:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: <655d1cb1-7666-215f-f931-ec136b3b46f4@main.nc.us> References: <655d1cb1-7666-215f-f931-ec136b3b46f4@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <00a301d8f2d1$c60e9240$522bb6c0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, 7 November, 2022 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [ExI] personal medical record software >...Maybe it depends on the doctor? >...It took me months to get my records *transferred* to a new doctor... Hey cool, we can have them transferred to Max. He is a doctor. Not the medical kind but neither am I. OK spike, which kind of doctor are you? That's right. What's right? The witch kind. Har. OK, I think MB is right, it all depends on the doctor and the medical plan. I am lucky that way: I have been with the same medical system since it started to matter, about 25 yrs, and they were good about making soft copy of the records. So my task is easier than most, but in general, it is valuable to have the option of plotting trends. spike From msd001 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 17:55:42 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 12:55:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: <006f01d8f2c7$400a2510$c01e6f30$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d8f2c7$400a2510$c01e6f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Oracle recently acquired Cerner EHR (electronic health records) and I think they have intent to move towards what everyone knows will be a national EHR with all the bane that comes with the boon Healthcare is easily 20 years behind tech industry standards. My employer is cutting edge at only 15 years behind (ex: "mobile first" design principles are just now starting to impact development and its a hard sell to convince people that we shouldn't have multiple versions of code for various devices) One reason to keep records from patients is because doctors don't trust you/us to be qualified to use the information correctly. WebMD freaks out as many people as it helps... imagine how much worse that effect when actual lab values are misunderstood due to insufficient context -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 19:09:54 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 13:09:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d8f2c7$400a2510$c01e6f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am glad it turned out to be a timely topic, though not the one I started. I easily get my records. What I want is software at home where I can enter data, appointments and so on Maybe iPhone something or other would work and coordinate with my Apple watch. ?? bill w On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 12:01 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Oracle recently acquired Cerner EHR (electronic health records) and I > think they have intent to move towards what everyone knows will be a > national EHR with all the bane that comes with the boon > > Healthcare is easily 20 years behind tech industry standards. My employer > is cutting edge at only 15 years behind (ex: "mobile first" design > principles are just now starting to impact development and its a hard sell > to convince people that we shouldn't have multiple versions of code for > various devices) > > One reason to keep records from patients is because doctors don't trust > you/us to be qualified to use the information correctly. WebMD freaks out > as many people as it helps... imagine how much worse that effect when > actual lab values are misunderstood due to insufficient context > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 7 19:59:23 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 11:59:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d8f2c7$400a2510$c01e6f30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003a01d8f2e3$6f22f6d0$4d68e470$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat ?I am glad it turned out to be a timely topic, though not the one I started. I easily get my records?.bill w Cool but there is yet another direction I wanna take this. Indulge me, por favor. 23&Me started out with a cool idea which was an epic fail. The cool idea was to use the PCR-based consumer-priced DNA kits, have users enter all the stuff wrong with them, then look for correlations with certain DNA groups to see if we can work backwards and tell new users what is most likely to kill them, perhaps allowing them to more wisely invest their medical dollars and life insurance policies, that sorta thing. It was an epic fail because most people don?t know what is wrong with them. The question forms they filled out were garbage: even if their doctor tells them what is wrong with them, they still don?t understand. There are plenty of really smart people, and I am privileged to know a lot of them. But as a group, humans are really stupid. The dataset was garbage. The output from 23 is in my opinion useless. 23 at Me needed a lot of security and privacy infrastructure, which made it very frustrating to use as a genealogy tool. Ancestry.com took the opposite approach: it was designed to help genealogists and was never intended as a medical tool. So that one has lousy privacy infrastructure, because it was never intended to keep secrets. It was intended to share info, and it is good at that. OK, so? if we have a good means of figuring out an accurate biological tree, as we do with AncestryDNA, then allow volunteers who used AncestryDNA to contribute their medical records such as the ones BillW mentioned, then future generations, possibly even present generations, can perhaps find ways to use mathematical tools (such as my own obsession the Kalman filter) so that they might be able to figure out what maladies are most likely to slay them. Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 20:06:54 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 12:06:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: <003a01d8f2e3$6f22f6d0$4d68e470$@rainier66.com> References: <006f01d8f2c7$400a2510$c01e6f30$@rainier66.com> <003a01d8f2e3$6f22f6d0$4d68e470$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 12:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > they might be able to figure out what maladies are most likely to slay them > > (such as my own obsession the Kalman filter) > I confess to having read that out of order at first, and finding nothing immediately illogical about it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 7 20:26:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 12:26:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] personal medical record software In-Reply-To: References: <006f01d8f2c7$400a2510$c01e6f30$@rainier66.com> <003a01d8f2e3$6f22f6d0$4d68e470$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005d01d8f2e7$381a6250$a84f26f0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] personal medical record software On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 12:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: they might be able to figure out what maladies are most likely to slay them (such as my own obsession the Kalman filter) >?I confess to having read that out of order at first, and finding nothing immediately illogical about it? Meh, obsession with Kalman filtering is seldom fatal. But it almost feels like getting a new toy every time I think of a possible new application of the technique. Numbers are my friends. We are working our way towards the ability to create a biologically accurate family tree for everyone on the planet. I can already create a biologically accurate portion of a tree for anyone closer related to me than 5th cousin. Granted it is not clear we want such a thing, for it rips away any tattered remnants of the curtain of privacy which once existed. But I look at the bright side: bad guys can?t get away with wrongdoing as often as they once did. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 14:50:49 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 08:50:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us Message-ID: We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent thinker all along? Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger movement of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." Repub Ryan Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal political agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library that let them read banned books) Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and indoctrination. I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies were done after GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had been subjected to brainwashing, some of them for years. Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a born contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers and pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 8 15:33:24 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 07:33:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004c01d8f387$71090260$531b0720$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] us >?We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent thinker all along? >... Of that that stuck, how much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w Billw, a related (or perhaps the same) question: how many of us reading this post recall being in elementary school, doing a math problem (this relates especially well to math) getting a different answer from the crowd, including the teacher, but having every confidence we are right? I remember doing this in college with a physics problem, and? I was right. Oh what a glorious day was that. These are the kinds of experiences that cause born iconoclasts to love math: there is an objective answer. Objective Boolean right or wrong proof is available, math and physics know nothing and care nothing about opinions or views. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:07:57 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 16:07:57 +0000 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 at 14:53, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a born contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. > > So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. > Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. > > We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers and pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w > _______________________________________________ Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it. Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?". The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs. None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work. Unfortunately it works far too well. BillK From gadersd at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 17:35:16 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 12:35:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational person. When I was young I couldn?t; explain why evolution and other scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn?t even notice the contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off new ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in place to default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn?t work on the GIs. That?s why you have to get them when they?re young, really young. > On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent thinker all along? > > Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger movement of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." Repub Ryan Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal political agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? > > (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library that let them read banned books) > > Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and indoctrination. I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies were done after GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had been subjected to brainwashing, some of them for years. > > Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. > > Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. > > Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a born contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. > > So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. > > Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. > > We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers and pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 17:48:32 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 11:48:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work. Unfortunately it works far too well BillK I do not agree with your premise. Sure, plenty of persuasions of all types are tried, but try to find the evidence that they do. And esp. look at how long a change lasts - often, according to social psychologists like me, change only lasts a few weeks, if that. Even monstrous changes, like 'getting saved' fade with time in most people who realize that it was an emotional thing, not a rational thing. How much propaganda do you think goes on in Iran? Plenty, I am supposing. Now contrast that with a survey that says that 2/3 of Iranians do not support a religious government. I highly doubt the Chinese will persuade many Uyghurs, but we will never know. If they were highly successful I think we would find that out, since that would be great propaganda for the Chinese to publish openly. bill w On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination > techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational > person. When I was young I couldn?t; explain why evolution and other > scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of > truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn?t even notice the > contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was > mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in > a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My > strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, > but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. > > I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off new > ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in place to > default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn?t work on the > GIs. That?s why you have to get them when they?re young, really young. > > On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just > how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by > older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent > thinker all along? > > Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger movement > of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." Repub Ryan > Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal political > agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? > > (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library > that let them read banned books) > > Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and indoctrination. > I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies were done after > GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had been subjected > to brainwashing, some of them for years. > > Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The > techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. > > Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. > > Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a born > contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been affected by > such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could have just > wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. > > So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are > attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those > kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. > > Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they > get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. > > We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers and > pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how > much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 17:51:53 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 11:51:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. Gadrsd I certainly would like to see data on that. Opinions persisting for life, I would reckon, would only describe those whose score on the Openness element of the Big Five was in the very closed section of the curve. No way an Open person will believe childhood opinions without change, often great change. bill w On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination > techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational > person. When I was young I couldn?t; explain why evolution and other > scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of > truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn?t even notice the > contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was > mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in > a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My > strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, > but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. > > I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off new > ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in place to > default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn?t work on the > GIs. That?s why you have to get them when they?re young, really young. > > On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just > how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by > older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent > thinker all along? > > Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger movement > of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." Repub Ryan > Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal political > agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? > > (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library > that let them read banned books) > > Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and indoctrination. > I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies were done after > GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had been subjected > to brainwashing, some of them for years. > > Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The > techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. > > Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. > > Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a born > contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been affected by > such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could have just > wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. > > So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are > attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those > kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. > > Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they > get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. > > We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers and > pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how > much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 18:03:08 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 13:03:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx According to the poll 40% of Americans believe in creationism. Ideologies tend to stick, especially powerful ones such as religion. That an idea as absurd as creationism has that much support reveals a lot regarding human susceptibility. > On Nov 8, 2022, at 12:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. > Gadrsd > > I certainly would like to see data on that. Opinions persisting for life, I would reckon, would only describe those whose score on the Openness element of the Big Five was in the very closed section of the curve. No way an Open person will believe childhood opinions without change, often great change. bill w > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: > I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational person. When I was young I couldn?t; explain why evolution and other scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn?t even notice the contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. > > I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off new ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in place to default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn?t work on the GIs. That?s why you have to get them when they?re young, really young. > >> On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent thinker all along? >> >> Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger movement of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." Repub Ryan Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal political agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? >> >> (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library that let them read banned books) >> >> Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and indoctrination. I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies were done after GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had been subjected to brainwashing, some of them for years. >> >> Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. >> >> Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. >> >> Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a born contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. >> >> So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. >> >> Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. >> >> We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers and pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 18:07:42 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 18:07:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 at 17:51, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I do not agree with your premise. Sure, plenty of persuasions of all types are tried, but try to find the evidence that they do. And esp. look at how long a change lasts - often, according to social psychologists like me, change only lasts a few weeks, if that. Even monstrous changes, like 'getting saved' fade with time in most people who realize that it was an emotional thing, not a rational thing. How much propaganda do you think goes on in Iran? Plenty, I am supposing. Now contrast that with a survey that says that 2/3 of Iranians do not support a religious government. I highly doubt the Chinese will persuade many Uyghurs, but we will never know. If they were highly successful I think we would find that out, since that would be great propaganda for the Chinese to publish openly. bill w > _______________________________________________ >From Psychology Today - Give Us A Kid Till She's 7 and We'll Have Her For Life The kids are not alright. Matthew J. Edlund M.D. The Power of Early Education Some claim the maxim comes from St. Ignatius Loyola himself. Yet the idea later proclaimed by the Jesuits is very old ? give us a child till he?s 7 and we?ll have him for life. It works. -------------------------- The full article is worth reading. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 8 18:13:14 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 10:13:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00df01d8f39d$c53ffdf0$4fbff9d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] us >?My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. Gadrsd Ja, and this can lead to enormous problems for those of us raised in religious fundamentalist homes who eventually do ask questions. Example, if we are taught the reason we are decent people is because God tells us to be that way, and we are told that God created life by speaking it into existence? then later we look carefully at nature and realize creationism is bogus? OK then, what about morality? Do we now have some kind of logical basis for being decent people? In my mind we do, but many former fundamentalists trip over this part, then proceed to wreck their lives. I personally know plenty of examples, plenty. I wasn?t one of them, but it was a very difficult transition for me to accept that our actions in this short life have no eternal consequences. Our actions have no cosmic consequences. We are here for a short time, then gone forever, so in that sense, nothing we do matters in the big picture. I realized our actions do matter in the small picture, which where we live and when we live. So? my outward behavior never changed much, not in any visible way, as I transitioned from a fundamentalist believer to a flaming atheist. I talk a little differently, but only if people ask very specific questions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 19:24:43 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 13:24:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That does not surprise me. Most Americans believe in God and do not understand science even if it is explained to them in depth. That leaves them little choice. 'God did it' is nice and simple and Darwinism is highly complex. Ask a Darwinian to explain his views and you get very complicated answers. People are obeying, ironically, Ockhams' Razor. bill w On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 12:05 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx > According to the poll 40% of Americans believe in creationism. Ideologies > tend to stick, especially powerful ones such as religion. That an idea as > absurd as creationism has that much support reveals a lot regarding human > susceptibility. > > On Nov 8, 2022, at 12:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive > dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. > Gadrsd > > I certainly would like to see data on that. Opinions persisting for life, > I would reckon, would only describe those whose score on the Openness > element of the Big Five was in the very closed section of the curve. No > way an Open person will believe childhood opinions without change, often > great change. bill w > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination >> techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational >> person. When I was young I couldn?t; explain why evolution and other >> scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of >> truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn?t even notice the >> contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was >> mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in >> a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My >> strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, >> but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. >> >> I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off >> new ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in >> place to default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn?t >> work on the GIs. That?s why you have to get them when they?re young, really >> young. >> >> On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just >> how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by >> older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent >> thinker all along? >> >> Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger movement >> of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." Repub Ryan >> Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal political >> agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? >> >> (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library >> that let them read banned books) >> >> Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and >> indoctrination. I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies >> were done after GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had >> been subjected to brainwashing, some of them for years. >> >> Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The >> techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. >> >> Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. >> >> Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a >> born contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been >> affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could >> have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. >> >> So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are >> attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those >> kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. >> >> Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they >> get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. >> >> We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers >> and pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how >> much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 19:54:31 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 14:54:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6542C034-4085-4DF2-8915-B3BC71F3D512@gmail.com> People are not obeying Occam?s razor by believing in creationism. The rigorous mathematical formulation of Occam?s razor, the true Occam?s razor, has nothing to do with how easy an idea is to understand. The basis is rather on algorithmic complexity, roughly speaking how many symbols of code or symbols of a mathematical language is required to fully express the idea. To fully define the idea that God created the universe requires defining the brain of God and its intelligence, desires, prejudices, etc. that leads to the creation of the universe in such detail that the whole process could be simulated on a computer. The known laws of physics are so astronomically less complex (the equations fit on a postcard) than the brain/consciousness of God that by Occam?s razor belief in God in absurd. People generally misunderstand the principle behind Occam?s razor. Think more along the lines of how would I explain this idea to a computer rather than how do I explain it to a person. I?ve programmed evolution simulations and the complexity is actually quite low (can be done in a day or so under a 100 lines of code). I would balk at the idea of trying to program the brain of the Abrahamic God in a computer. It would presumably be at least as complex as a fully developed human brain. > On Nov 8, 2022, at 2:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > That does not surprise me. Most Americans believe in God and do not understand science even if it is explained to them in depth. That leaves them little choice. 'God did it' is nice and simple and Darwinism is highly complex. Ask a Darwinian to explain his views and you get very complicated answers. People are obeying, ironically, Ockhams' Razor. bill w > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 12:05 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: > https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx > According to the poll 40% of Americans believe in creationism. Ideologies tend to stick, especially powerful ones such as religion. That an idea as absurd as creationism has that much support reveals a lot regarding human susceptibility. > >> On Nov 8, 2022, at 12:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. >> Gadrsd >> >> I certainly would like to see data on that. Opinions persisting for life, I would reckon, would only describe those whose score on the Openness element of the Big Five was in the very closed section of the curve. No way an Open person will believe childhood opinions without change, often great change. bill w >> >> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: >> I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational person. When I was young I couldn?t; explain why evolution and other scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn?t even notice the contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. >> >> I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off new ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in place to default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn?t work on the GIs. That?s why you have to get them when they?re young, really young. >> >>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >>> >>> We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent thinker all along? >>> >>> Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger movement of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." Repub Ryan Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal political agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? >>> >>> (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library that let them read banned books) >>> >>> Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and indoctrination. I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies were done after GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had been subjected to brainwashing, some of them for years. >>> >>> Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. >>> >>> Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. >>> >>> Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a born contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. >>> >>> So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. >>> >>> Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. >>> >>> We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers and pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 20:46:22 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 14:46:22 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <6542C034-4085-4DF2-8915-B3BC71F3D512@gmail.com> References: <6542C034-4085-4DF2-8915-B3BC71F3D512@gmail.com> Message-ID: Of what I can understand from your post, which is not a whole lot, you are correct from your point of view. But from the point of view of the average person, God is quite a simple thing: an old man in a beard who lives in Heaven. Most don't think past that, certainly not to the depth your post displays. By extreme contrast, the many thousands of studies stemming from evolutionary theory are Greek to the average person, and therefore are invincibly complex. bill w On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:56 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > People are not obeying Occam?s razor by believing in creationism. The > rigorous mathematical formulation of Occam?s razor, the true Occam?s razor, > has nothing to do with how easy an idea is to understand. The basis is > rather on algorithmic complexity, roughly speaking how many symbols of code > or symbols of a mathematical language is required to fully express the > idea. To fully define the idea that God created the universe requires > defining the brain of God and its intelligence, desires, prejudices, etc. > that leads to the creation of the universe in such detail that the whole > process could be simulated on a computer. The known laws of physics are so > astronomically less complex (the equations fit on a postcard) than the > brain/consciousness of God that by Occam?s razor belief in God in absurd. > > People generally misunderstand the principle behind Occam?s razor. Think > more along the lines of how would I explain this idea to a computer rather > than how do I explain it to a person. I?ve programmed evolution simulations > and the complexity is actually quite low (can be done in a day or so under > a 100 lines of code). I would balk at the idea of trying to program the > brain of the Abrahamic God in a computer. It would presumably be at least > as complex as a fully developed human brain. > > On Nov 8, 2022, at 2:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > That does not surprise me. Most Americans believe in God and do not > understand science even if it is explained to them in depth. That leaves > them little choice. 'God did it' is nice and simple and Darwinism is > highly complex. Ask a Darwinian to explain his views and you get very > complicated answers. People are obeying, ironically, Ockhams' Razor. bill > w > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 12:05 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx >> According to the poll 40% of Americans believe in creationism. Ideologies >> tend to stick, especially powerful ones such as religion. That an idea as >> absurd as creationism has that much support reveals a lot regarding human >> susceptibility. >> >> On Nov 8, 2022, at 12:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive >> dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. >> Gadrsd >> >> I certainly would like to see data on that. Opinions persisting for >> life, I would reckon, would only describe those whose score on the Openness >> element of the Big Five was in the very closed section of the curve. No >> way an Open person will believe childhood opinions without change, often >> great change. bill w >> >> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination >>> techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational >>> person. When I was young I couldn?t; explain why evolution and other >>> scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of >>> truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn?t even notice the >>> contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was >>> mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in >>> a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My >>> strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, >>> but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. >>> >>> I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off >>> new ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in >>> place to default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn?t >>> work on the GIs. That?s why you have to get them when they?re young, really >>> young. >>> >>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just >>> how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by >>> older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent >>> thinker all along? >>> >>> Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger >>> movement of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." >>> Repub Ryan Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal >>> political agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? >>> >>> (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library >>> that let them read banned books) >>> >>> Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and >>> indoctrination. I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies >>> were done after GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had >>> been subjected to brainwashing, some of them for years. >>> >>> Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The >>> techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. >>> >>> Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. >>> >>> Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a >>> born contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been >>> affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could >>> have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. >>> >>> So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are >>> attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those >>> kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. >>> >>> Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they >>> get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. >>> >>> We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers >>> and pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how >>> much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 21:12:14 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 16:12:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <6542C034-4085-4DF2-8915-B3BC71F3D512@gmail.com> Message-ID: <95C1613A-78AB-493E-82B2-809780B8FDAB@gmail.com> We are using the same word ?complexity? to refer to different ideas. You seem to be referring to the conventional idea of complexity while I?m referring to a mathematical definition. Occam?s razor applies exclusively to the mathematical version, although many people erroneously believe that Occam?s razor refers to the conventional concept of complexity. It?s really apples and oranges. I understand your point though. People are more willing to accept ideas that are simpler to understand at the outset. It?s easy to wrap an extremely convoluted idea into a bag and label that bag God without looking inside. All bags seem simple if one doesn?t look inside and see all the baggage. > On Nov 8, 2022, at 3:46 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Of what I can understand from your post, which is not a whole lot, you are correct from your point of view. > > But from the point of view of the average person, God is quite a simple thing: an old man in a beard who lives in Heaven. Most don't think past that, certainly not to the depth your post displays. By extreme contrast, the many thousands of studies stemming from evolutionary theory are Greek to the average person, and therefore are invincibly complex. > > bill w > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:56 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: > People are not obeying Occam?s razor by believing in creationism. The rigorous mathematical formulation of Occam?s razor, the true Occam?s razor, has nothing to do with how easy an idea is to understand. The basis is rather on algorithmic complexity, roughly speaking how many symbols of code or symbols of a mathematical language is required to fully express the idea. To fully define the idea that God created the universe requires defining the brain of God and its intelligence, desires, prejudices, etc. that leads to the creation of the universe in such detail that the whole process could be simulated on a computer. The known laws of physics are so astronomically less complex (the equations fit on a postcard) than the brain/consciousness of God that by Occam?s razor belief in God in absurd. > > People generally misunderstand the principle behind Occam?s razor. Think more along the lines of how would I explain this idea to a computer rather than how do I explain it to a person. I?ve programmed evolution simulations and the complexity is actually quite low (can be done in a day or so under a 100 lines of code). I would balk at the idea of trying to program the brain of the Abrahamic God in a computer. It would presumably be at least as complex as a fully developed human brain. > >> On Nov 8, 2022, at 2:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> That does not surprise me. Most Americans believe in God and do not understand science even if it is explained to them in depth. That leaves them little choice. 'God did it' is nice and simple and Darwinism is highly complex. Ask a Darwinian to explain his views and you get very complicated answers. People are obeying, ironically, Ockhams' Razor. bill w >> >> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 12:05 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: >> https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx >> According to the poll 40% of Americans believe in creationism. Ideologies tend to stick, especially powerful ones such as religion. That an idea as absurd as creationism has that much support reveals a lot regarding human susceptibility. >> >>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 12:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >>> >>> My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. >>> Gadrsd >>> >>> I certainly would like to see data on that. Opinions persisting for life, I would reckon, would only describe those whose score on the Openness element of the Big Five was in the very closed section of the curve. No way an Open person will believe childhood opinions without change, often great change. bill w >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: >>> I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational person. When I was young I couldn?t; explain why evolution and other scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn?t even notice the contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. >>> >>> I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off new ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in place to default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn?t work on the GIs. That?s why you have to get them when they?re young, really young. >>> >>>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >>>> >>>> We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent thinker all along? >>>> >>>> Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger movement of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." Repub Ryan Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal political agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? >>>> >>>> (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library that let them read banned books) >>>> >>>> Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and indoctrination. I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies were done after GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had been subjected to brainwashing, some of them for years. >>>> >>>> Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. >>>> >>>> Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. >>>> >>>> Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a born contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. >>>> >>>> So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. >>>> >>>> Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - they get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. >>>> >>>> We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers and pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 00:20:18 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2022 18:20:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <95C1613A-78AB-493E-82B2-809780B8FDAB@gmail.com> References: <6542C034-4085-4DF2-8915-B3BC71F3D512@gmail.com> <95C1613A-78AB-493E-82B2-809780B8FDAB@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's really kind of sad that most people don't look intellectually at their own religion. Maybe it just serves a purpose of giving them a public face of respectability and opportunities to meet people. But don't ask them to think! Contrarywise, I once taught an adult Sunday school class and one member told me that he had thought all week about what I said last week. What a compliment! bill w On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 3:14 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > We are using the same word ?complexity? to refer to different ideas. You > seem to be referring to the conventional idea of complexity while I?m > referring to a mathematical definition. Occam?s razor applies exclusively > to the mathematical version, although many people erroneously believe that > Occam?s razor refers to the conventional concept of complexity. It?s really > apples and oranges. > > I understand your point though. People are more willing to accept ideas > that are simpler to understand at the outset. It?s easy to wrap an > extremely convoluted idea into a bag and label that bag God without looking > inside. All bags seem simple if one doesn?t look inside and see all the > baggage. > > On Nov 8, 2022, at 3:46 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Of what I can understand from your post, which is not a whole lot, you are > correct from your point of view. > > But from the point of view of the average person, God is quite a simple > thing: an old man in a beard who lives in Heaven. Most don't think past > that, certainly not to the depth your post displays. By extreme contrast, > the many thousands of studies stemming from evolutionary theory are Greek > to the average person, and therefore are invincibly complex. > > bill w > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 1:56 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> People are not obeying Occam?s razor by believing in creationism. The >> rigorous mathematical formulation of Occam?s razor, the true Occam?s razor, >> has nothing to do with how easy an idea is to understand. The basis is >> rather on algorithmic complexity, roughly speaking how many symbols of code >> or symbols of a mathematical language is required to fully express the >> idea. To fully define the idea that God created the universe requires >> defining the brain of God and its intelligence, desires, prejudices, etc. >> that leads to the creation of the universe in such detail that the whole >> process could be simulated on a computer. The known laws of physics are so >> astronomically less complex (the equations fit on a postcard) than the >> brain/consciousness of God that by Occam?s razor belief in God in absurd. >> >> People generally misunderstand the principle behind Occam?s razor. Think >> more along the lines of how would I explain this idea to a computer rather >> than how do I explain it to a person. I?ve programmed evolution simulations >> and the complexity is actually quite low (can be done in a day or so under >> a 100 lines of code). I would balk at the idea of trying to program the >> brain of the Abrahamic God in a computer. It would presumably be at least >> as complex as a fully developed human brain. >> >> On Nov 8, 2022, at 2:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> That does not surprise me. Most Americans believe in God and do not >> understand science even if it is explained to them in depth. That leaves >> them little choice. 'God did it' is nice and simple and Darwinism is >> highly complex. Ask a Darwinian to explain his views and you get very >> complicated answers. People are obeying, ironically, Ockhams' Razor. bill >> w >> >> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 12:05 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx >>> According to the poll 40% of Americans believe in creationism. >>> Ideologies tend to stick, especially powerful ones such as religion. That >>> an idea as absurd as creationism has that much support reveals a lot >>> regarding human susceptibility. >>> >>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 12:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive >>> dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life. >>> Gadrsd >>> >>> I certainly would like to see data on that. Opinions persisting for >>> life, I would reckon, would only describe those whose score on the Openness >>> element of the Big Five was in the very closed section of the curve. No >>> way an Open person will believe childhood opinions without change, often >>> great change. bill w >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The >>>> indoctrination techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very >>>> rational person. When I was young I couldn?t; explain why evolution and >>>> other scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the >>>> source of truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn?t even >>>> notice the contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even >>>> though I was mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for >>>> children raised in a particular ideology to see the contradictions within >>>> that ideology. My strong sense of rationality eventually detected the >>>> cognitive dissonance, but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks >>>> for life. >>>> >>>> I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off >>>> new ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in >>>> place to default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn?t >>>> work on the GIs. That?s why you have to get them when they?re young, really >>>> young. >>>> >>>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> We attained our neurological maturity around age 25. Before that, just >>>> how dumb were we? Were we very impressionable? Able to be led around by >>>> older and wise others? Or were we just a little bit of an independent >>>> thinker all along? >>>> >>>> Here's a phrase from today's paper? "..she was part of a larger >>>> movement of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..." >>>> Repub Ryan Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal >>>> political agenda in the classroom" Conservative OK? >>>> >>>> (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library >>>> that let them read banned books) >>>> >>>> Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and >>>> indoctrination. I don't know much. But I do know that extensive studies >>>> were done after GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had >>>> been subjected to brainwashing, some of them for years. >>>> >>>> Results: they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition. The >>>> techniques simply did not work. GIs pretended to go along with the program. >>>> >>>> Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature. >>>> >>>> Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination? Me? I am a >>>> born contrarian and skeptic. But I don't know how I would have been >>>> affected by such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could >>>> have just wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age. >>>> >>>> So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are >>>> attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those >>>> kids will develop different opinions before they leave school. >>>> >>>> Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?' Teachers are like parents - >>>> they get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important. >>>> >>>> We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers >>>> and pastors throughout our youth. How much stuck? Of that that stuck, how >>>> much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told? bill w >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darren.greer3 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 17:16:44 2022 From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 12:16:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <6542C034-4085-4DF2-8915-B3BC71F3D512@gmail.com> <95C1613A-78AB-493E-82B2-809780B8FDAB@gmail.com> Message-ID: William James called this entirely faith-based non-critical approach to belief "second-hand religion." Christopher Hitchens stated a number of times in his writing that most religions are borne out of a need to be governed, a need to place control of your own life in the hands of a benevolent dictator called God. When in North Korea he observed that the general response to a public appearance by Kim Jong Il seemed very much like religious hysteria. I think religion often remains unexamined because the personal impulses that drive people towards it remain unexamined. Fear of death, fear of uncertainty. fear of being alone, etc. D. On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 at 19:21, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It's really kind of sad that most people don't look intellectually at > their own religion. Maybe it just serves a purpose of giving them a public > face of respectability and opportunities to meet people. But don't ask > them to think! > > Contrarywise, I once taught an adult Sunday school class and one member > told me that he had thought all week about what I said last week. What a > compliment! bill w > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 3:14 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> We are using the same word ?complexity? to refer to different ideas. You >> seem to be referring to the conventional idea of complexity while I?m >> referring to a mathematical definition. Occam?s razor applies exclusively >> to the mathematical version, although many people erroneously believe that >> Occam?s razor refers to the conventional concept of complexity. It?s really >> apples and oranges. >> >> I understand your point though. People are more willing to accept ideas >> that are simpler to understand at the outset. It?s easy to wrap an >> extremely convoluted idea into a bag and label that bag God without looking >> inside. All bags seem simple if one doesn?t look inside and see all the >> baggage. >> >> On Nov 8, 2022, at 3:46 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> Of what I can understand from your post, which is not a whole lot, you >> are correct from your point of view. >> >> But from the point of view of the average person, God is quite a simple >> thing: an old man in a beard who lives in Heaven. Most don't think past >> that, certainly not to the depth your post displays. By extreme contrast, >> the many thousands of studies stemming from evolutionary theory are Greek >> to the average person, and therefore are invincibly complex. >> >> bill w >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 20:29:53 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 14:29:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <6542C034-4085-4DF2-8915-B3BC71F3D512@gmail.com> <95C1613A-78AB-493E-82B2-809780B8FDAB@gmail.com> Message-ID: You cite several reasons for the unexamined religious life. I would add this: maybe some are afraid that if they though too hard about it, they might find that they can't stomach the metaphysics: angels and demons, miracles of all sorts and so on. And if you looked into the history of religion you would find quite a few characters of whom it was said the same things as was said of Jesus: virgin birth, did miracles, went straight to Heaven and a lot more. These were common things said about kings and other rulers who told their subjects that they were gods or The God. So much of religious life seems artificial and make-believe. And I believe that that is what it is. An old but good term: logic-tight compartments: these are opinions that are not subject to any logic or interrogation of any kind. No number of facts or contrary opinions will get through and change anything. bill w On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 11:20 AM Darren Greer via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > William James called this entirely faith-based non-critical approach to > belief "second-hand religion." Christopher Hitchens stated a number of > times in his writing that most religions are borne out of a need to be > governed, a need to place control of your own life in the hands of a > benevolent dictator called God. When in North Korea he observed that the > general response to a public appearance by Kim Jong Il seemed very much > like religious hysteria. I think religion often remains unexamined because > the personal impulses that drive people towards it remain unexamined. Fear > of death, fear of uncertainty. fear of being alone, etc. > > D. > > On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 at 19:21, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It's really kind of sad that most people don't look intellectually at >> their own religion. Maybe it just serves a purpose of giving them a public >> face of respectability and opportunities to meet people. But don't ask >> them to think! >> >> Contrarywise, I once taught an adult Sunday school class and one member >> told me that he had thought all week about what I said last week. What a >> compliment! bill w >> >> On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 3:14 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> We are using the same word ?complexity? to refer to different ideas. You >>> seem to be referring to the conventional idea of complexity while I?m >>> referring to a mathematical definition. Occam?s razor applies exclusively >>> to the mathematical version, although many people erroneously believe that >>> Occam?s razor refers to the conventional concept of complexity. It?s really >>> apples and oranges. >>> >>> I understand your point though. People are more willing to accept ideas >>> that are simpler to understand at the outset. It?s easy to wrap an >>> extremely convoluted idea into a bag and label that bag God without looking >>> inside. All bags seem simple if one doesn?t look inside and see all the >>> baggage. >>> >>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 3:46 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> Of what I can understand from your post, which is not a whole lot, you >>> are correct from your point of view. >>> >>> But from the point of view of the average person, God is quite a simple >>> thing: an old man in a beard who lives in Heaven. Most don't think past >>> that, certainly not to the depth your post displays. By extreme contrast, >>> the many thousands of studies stemming from evolutionary theory are Greek >>> to the average person, and therefore are invincibly complex. >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Nov 9 23:40:41 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2022 15:40:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I imagine it's a Red Queen's arms race between the persuaders and the skeptics--made more difficult that we each play both roles at different times in our lives. Tara Maya > On Nov 8, 2022, at 8:07 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden > persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government > propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media > influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it. > Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?". > The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs. > None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work. > Unfortunately it works far too well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 09:24:22 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:24:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] My review of "The Primacy of Doubt," by Tim Palmer Message-ID: Turing Church newsletter. Fractal chaos meets quantum mechanics and metaphysics. My review of "The Primacy of Doubt," by Tim Palmer. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/fractal-chaos-meets-quantum-mechanics From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 15:52:48 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:52:48 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Those near the border of skepticism and belief have a hard time when it comes to their children. Let them experience religion first hand in a church? Keep them away? Let them know your doubt? And so on. Tough decisions for the agnostic (though not for the hard bitten atheist). bill w On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 5:42 PM Tara Maya via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I imagine it's a Red Queen's arms race between the persuaders and the > skeptics--made more difficult that we each play both roles at different > times in our lives. > > Tara Maya > > On Nov 8, 2022, at 8:07 AM, BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden > persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government > propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media > influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it. > Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?". > The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs. > None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work. > Unfortunately it works far too well. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 17:14:21 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 12:14:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> The professor I did research under at university is a Muslim. He once told me that he was raising one of his sons agnostic. I was really surprised at the time as that seemed to go completely against doctrine. I think people leaning on the edge tend to view religion itself as mostly a man-made construct made up of largely arbitrary rules while at the same time recognizing the fundamental existence of God. The trend seems to be that religion is becoming more individualistic and open to interpretation. In a personalized religion divorced from rigid doctrine it shouldn?t matter much what other people believe. > On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Those near the border of skepticism and belief have a hard time when it comes to their children. Let them experience religion first hand in a church? Keep them away? Let them know your doubt? And so on. Tough decisions for the agnostic (though not for the hard bitten atheist). bill w > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 5:42 PM Tara Maya via extropy-chat > wrote: > I imagine it's a Red Queen's arms race between the persuaders and the skeptics--made more difficult that we each play both roles at different times in our lives. > > Tara Maya > >> On Nov 8, 2022, at 8:07 AM, BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> >> Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden >> persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government >> propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media >> influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it. >> Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?". >> The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs. >> None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work. >> Unfortunately it works far too well. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 17:29:20 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 11:29:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> Message-ID: Church attendance is down, I hear. Look at the doctrines - Man is doomed via the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden. All of us have to be saved from what we are, which is a bundle of unforgiven sin. And the only way to do that is to join the 'true' church, whatever that might be locally. Those on the edge reject Original Sin, I think, in favor of Mother Nature, panpsychism, and more. Future historians will take our age as a most interesting mess re religion, formal or informal. bill w These are far more positive approaches to gods than all the major religions hold. On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:16 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The professor I did research under at university is a Muslim. He once told > me that he was raising one of his sons agnostic. I was really surprised at > the time as that seemed to go completely against doctrine. I think people > leaning on the edge tend to view religion itself as mostly a man-made > construct made up of largely arbitrary rules while at the same time > recognizing the fundamental existence of God. The trend seems to be that > religion is becoming more individualistic and open to interpretation. In a > personalized religion divorced from rigid doctrine it shouldn?t matter much > what other people believe. > > On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Those near the border of skepticism and belief have a hard time when it > comes to their children. Let them experience religion first hand in a > church? Keep them away? Let them know your doubt? And so on. Tough > decisions for the agnostic (though not for the hard bitten atheist). bill w > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 5:42 PM Tara Maya via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I imagine it's a Red Queen's arms race between the persuaders and the >> skeptics--made more difficult that we each play both roles at different >> times in our lives. >> >> Tara Maya >> >> On Nov 8, 2022, at 8:07 AM, BillK via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden >> persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government >> propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media >> influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it. >> Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?". >> The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs. >> None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work. >> Unfortunately it works far too well. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 17:39:27 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:39:27 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] My review of "The Primacy of Doubt, " by Tim Palmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Poincar??s eternal return universe would be a repetitive closed loop without novelty as you say. It would be a loop because in classical mechanics different phase space paths don?t intersect (if they did, one present would have multiple futures), so if two paths intersect once they are one and the same path. Palmer says that the universe will return to a state that is arbitrarily close (not identical) to any previous state. In his theory, inspired by fractal and chaos maths, the universe will eventually (after a loooong time) return to a state very close (arbitrarily close) to its current state. And then again and again on new paths in the fractal invariant set. But there are variations, and then other variations ever and ever again, so it is not the same one life over and over, and there are real subjective experiences forever. And you keep meeting new versions of your loved ones forever! To me, this is an emotionally satisfying concept of afterlife. On 2022. Nov 10., Thu at 15:23, John Clark wrote: > On https://www.turingchurch.com/p/fractal-chaos-meets-quantum-mechanics > Giulio Prisco wrote: > > *> This is a deterministic loop, but the geometry of the IS is not >> computable.* > > > I agree with that. > > > *?In this sense,? *says Palmer, *?we are not mindless automata.?* > > > We are certainly not mindless but we are automata, although we are the > type of automata in which the only way to know what we will do is to watch > it and see, we can't even know for sure what we ourselves will do until we > actually do it. It's good thing too because the only alternative to being > an automata is being a roulette wheel. > > *> This, according to Palmer, helps make sense of quantum weirdness. Each >> point in the IS is, Palmer says, ?a synthesis of everything that is, has >> been and will be.? My interpretation of ?Each point in the set is a >> synthesis of everything that is, has been and will be?* > > > If that were true then I don't see how Science could exist, I don't even > see how we could make any successful predictions at all because you'd > have to understand everything before you could understand anything. And > yet despite the many things that we don't understand science nevertheless > manages to exist and we are able to make some very good predictions. > > *> (which is different, I guess, from Palmer?s own interpretation) seems >> to imply that Palmer?s theory is nonlocal and retrocausal.* > > > I agree, based on that quote I don't see how anybody could reach a > different conclusion. And that is a blatant contradiction to what Palmer > said previously. > > *> To me, determinism means that the future is determined by the present, >> and local causality means that causal influences are limited by the speed >> of light and therefore take time to propagate in space.* > > > That's what those words mean to me as well. > > *> According to Palmer, we have some sort of free will because we are part >> of the IS.* > > > If Palmer could explain what "free will" is supposed to mean then I'd be > able to say if I agree with him or not. > > >*This opens the door to a concept of afterlife: we and our loved ones >> ?will be coming back in future epochs of the universe? along new paths >> close to this one.* > > > Poincar?'s Recurrence Theorem says any dynamical system composed of a > finite number of particles (as the human brain is) will, given sufficient > time, return to its original state, however I wouldn't consider just > repeating the same identical thing over and over again to be an afterlife > because repeating an event an infinite number of times and doing it just > once would be subjectively identical. And subjectivity is the most > important thing in the universe, or at least it is in my subjective > opinion. But if you could keep on increasing the number of particles, > that is to say if your brain kept getting bigger, then you could keep on > having novel experiences until you ran out of particles to add. > > John K Clark > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "extropolis" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1%2BjiANpcTxrqEqW9hvtTu2imyZS3ELTKggDLx5iqPoGw%40mail.gmail.com > > . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Thu Nov 10 17:52:20 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 17:52:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> Message-ID: Perhaps one reason that church attendance is down is that the Green religion has gained so many followers and they don't have churches (at least in the usual sense). The Green religion has its own original sin (humankind's separation from nature due to intelligence and technology), its own god or goddess (Gaia/the Earth/Nature), its own indulgences (carbon offsets), its sacrifices (give up your inexpensive cars in favor of expensive electric vehicles -- and pretend that the latter are powered by "green energy"), its own prophets (Al Gore, Bill McKibben, Michael Mann, and many others), and it follows authoritarian, faith-based modes of thinking -- believe The Science (TM), combined with apocalyptic pronouncements and predictions that are adjusted every time they fail. Especially for young people (first three or four decades), Green/extreme environmentalism/catastrophism has replaced standard religions but meets most of the same "needs". --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 10:29 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] us Church attendance is down, I hear. Look at the doctrines - Man is doomed via the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden. All of us have to be saved from what we are, which is a bundle of unforgiven sin. And the only way to do that is to join the 'true' church, whatever that might be locally. Those on the edge reject Original Sin, I think, in favor of Mother Nature, panpsychism, and more. Future historians will take our age as a most interesting mess re religion, formal or informal. bill w These are far more positive approaches to gods than all the major religions hold. On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:16 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: The professor I did research under at university is a Muslim. He once told me that he was raising one of his sons agnostic. I was really surprised at the time as that seemed to go completely against doctrine. I think people leaning on the edge tend to view religion itself as mostly a man-made construct made up of largely arbitrary rules while at the same time recognizing the fundamental existence of God. The trend seems to be that religion is becoming more individualistic and open to interpretation. In a personalized religion divorced from rigid doctrine it shouldn?t matter much what other people believe. On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: Those near the border of skepticism and belief have a hard time when it comes to their children. Let them experience religion first hand in a church? Keep them away? Let them know your doubt? And so on. Tough decisions for the agnostic (though not for the hard bitten atheist). bill w On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 5:42 PM Tara Maya via extropy-chat > wrote: I imagine it's a Red Queen's arms race between the persuaders and the skeptics--made more difficult that we each play both roles at different times in our lives. Tara Maya On Nov 8, 2022, at 8:07 AM, BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it. Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?". The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs. None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work. Unfortunately it works far too well. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 10 18:12:25 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:12:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008801d8f52f$fd1d6620$f7583260$@rainier66.com> .> On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] us Perhaps one reason that church attendance is down is that the Green religion has gained so many followers and they don't have churches (at least in the usual sense). The Green religion has its own original sin (humankind's separation from nature due to intelligence and technology), its own god or goddess (Gaia/the Earth/Nature), its own indulgences (carbon offsets), its sacrifices (give up your inexpensive cars in favor of expensive electric vehicles -- and pretend that the latter are powered by "green energy"), its own prophets (Al Gore, Bill McKibben, Michael Mann, and many others), and it follows authoritarian, faith-based modes of thinking -- believe The Science (TM), combined with apocalyptic pronouncements and predictions that are adjusted every time they fail. Especially for young people (first three or four decades), Green/extreme environmentalism/catastrophism has replaced standard religions but meets most of the same "needs". --Max _____ Max this is the best post I have seen here in months. Evolutionary psychology would suggest we are fooling ourselves if we think we can just give up gods. Human society emerged from murderous chaos by inventing deities who become angry with us if we fail to adhere to social mores which lead to stable societies, leading to human cooperation and emergence from the rest of the beasts which were never able to invent such deities. We, our minds, or social structures, our ethics systems, all evolved through the worship of supernatural beings. The moral constraints such evolution puts on us still works just fine, even if we know the supernatural beings controlling our minds are a product of our minds. Punchline: we cannot just give up that invention. We are programmed to worship something. The green movement is a perfect example of substituting new gods for the old ones. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 18:14:53 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] My review of "The Primacy of Doubt, " by Tim Palmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The brain, like any living thing, adds and removes particles over time. To consume (add) and excrete (remove) is part of the definition of life. On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 9:41 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > of a finite number of particles (as the human brain is) will, given > sufficient time, return to its original state, however I wouldn't consider > just repeating the same identical thing over and over again to be an > afterlife because repeating an event an infinite number of times and doing > it just once would be subjectively identical. And subjectivity is the most > important thing in the universe, or at least it is in my subjective > opinion. But if you could keep on increasing the number of particles, that > is to say if your brain kept getting bigger, then you could keep on having > novel experiences until you ran out of particles to add. > > > Poincar??s eternal return universe would be a repetitive closed loop > without novelty as you say. It would be a loop because in classical > mechanics different phase space paths don?t intersect (if they did, one > present would have multiple futures), so if two paths intersect once they > are one and the same path. > > Palmer says that the universe will return to a state that is arbitrarily > close (not identical) to any previous state. In his theory, inspired by > fractal and chaos maths, the universe will eventually (after a loooong > time) return to a state very close (arbitrarily close) to its current > state. And then again and again on new paths in the fractal invariant set. > > But there are variations, and then other variations ever and ever again, > so it is not the same one life over and over, and there are real subjective > experiences forever. And you keep meeting new versions of your loved ones > forever! To me, this is an emotionally satisfying concept of afterlife. > > > On 2022. Nov 10., Thu at 15:23, John Clark wrote: > >> On https://www.turingchurch.com/p/fractal-chaos-meets-quantum-mechanics >> Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >> *> This is a deterministic loop, but the geometry of the IS is not >>> computable.* >> >> >> I agree with that. >> >> > *?In this sense,? *says Palmer, *?we are not mindless automata.?* >> >> >> We are certainly not mindless but we are automata, although we are the >> type of automata in which the only way to know what we will do is to watch >> it and see, we can't even know for sure what we ourselves will do until we >> actually do it. It's good thing too because the only alternative to being >> an automata is being a roulette wheel. >> >> *> This, according to Palmer, helps make sense of quantum weirdness. Each >>> point in the IS is, Palmer says, ?a synthesis of everything that is, has >>> been and will be.? My interpretation of ?Each point in the set is a >>> synthesis of everything that is, has been and will be?* >> >> >> If that were true then I don't see how Science could exist, I don't even >> see how we could make any successful predictions at all because you'd >> have to understand everything before you could understand anything. And >> yet despite the many things that we don't understand science nevertheless >> manages to exist and we are able to make some very good predictions. >> >> *> (which is different, I guess, from Palmer?s own interpretation) seems >>> to imply that Palmer?s theory is nonlocal and retrocausal.* >> >> >> I agree, based on that quote I don't see how anybody could reach a >> different conclusion. And that is a blatant contradiction to what Palmer >> said previously. >> >> *> To me, determinism means that the future is determined by the present, >>> and local causality means that causal influences are limited by the speed >>> of light and therefore take time to propagate in space.* >> >> >> That's what those words mean to me as well. >> >> *> According to Palmer, we have some sort of free will because we are >>> part of the IS.* >> >> >> If Palmer could explain what "free will" is supposed to mean then I'd be >> able to say if I agree with him or not. >> >> >*This opens the door to a concept of afterlife: we and our loved ones >>> ?will be coming back in future epochs of the universe? along new paths >>> close to this one.* >> >> >> Poincar?'s Recurrence Theorem says any dynamical system composed of a >> finite number of particles (as the human brain is) will, given sufficient >> time, return to its original state, however I wouldn't consider just >> repeating the same identical thing over and over again to be an >> afterlife because repeating an event an infinite number of times and doing >> it just once would be subjectively identical. And subjectivity is the >> most important thing in the universe, or at least it is in my subjective >> opinion. But if you could keep on increasing the number of particles, >> that is to say if your brain kept getting bigger, then you could keep on >> having novel experiences until you ran out of particles to add. >> >> John K Clark >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "extropolis" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv1%2BjiANpcTxrqEqW9hvtTu2imyZS3ELTKggDLx5iqPoGw%40mail.gmail.com >> >> . >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 19:11:10 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 14:11:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> I met someone at university who told me that he wasn?t having children because of climate change. That is the moment I realized these people are radicals. This person is also a communist. I think many of the revolutions are just modern day holy crusades. People seem to feel the need to believe in something to worship and something to fight, lest we regress into boredom. > On Nov 10, 2022, at 12:52 PM, Max More via extropy-chat wrote: > > Perhaps one reason that church attendance is down is that the Green religion has gained so many followers and they don't have churches (at least in the usual sense). The Green religion has its own original sin (humankind's separation from nature due to intelligence and technology), its own god or goddess (Gaia/the Earth/Nature), its own indulgences (carbon offsets), its sacrifices (give up your inexpensive cars in favor of expensive electric vehicles -- and pretend that the latter are powered by "green energy"), its own prophets (Al Gore, Bill McKibben, Michael Mann, and many others), and it follows authoritarian, faith-based modes of thinking -- believe The Science (TM), combined with apocalyptic pronouncements and predictions that are adjusted every time they fail. > > Especially for young people (first three or four decades), Green/extreme environmentalism/catastrophism has replaced standard religions but meets most of the same "needs". > > --Max > From: extropy-chat on behalf of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 10:29 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: William Flynn Wallace > Subject: Re: [ExI] us > > Church attendance is down, I hear. Look at the doctrines - Man is doomed via the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden. All of us have to be saved from what we are, which is a bundle of unforgiven sin. And the only way to do that is to join the 'true' church, whatever that might be locally. > > Those on the edge reject Original Sin, I think, in favor of Mother Nature, panpsychism, and more. Future historians will take our age as a most interesting mess re religion, formal or informal. bill w > > These are far more positive approaches to gods than all the major religions hold. > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:16 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: > The professor I did research under at university is a Muslim. He once told me that he was raising one of his sons agnostic. I was really surprised at the time as that seemed to go completely against doctrine. I think people leaning on the edge tend to view religion itself as mostly a man-made construct made up of largely arbitrary rules while at the same time recognizing the fundamental existence of God. The trend seems to be that religion is becoming more individualistic and open to interpretation. In a personalized religion divorced from rigid doctrine it shouldn?t matter much what other people believe. > >> On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Those near the border of skepticism and belief have a hard time when it comes to their children. Let them experience religion first hand in a church? Keep them away? Let them know your doubt? And so on. Tough decisions for the agnostic (though not for the hard bitten atheist). bill w >> >> On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 5:42 PM Tara Maya via extropy-chat > wrote: >> I imagine it's a Red Queen's arms race between the persuaders and the skeptics--made more difficult that we each play both roles at different times in our lives. >> >> Tara Maya >> >>> On Nov 8, 2022, at 8:07 AM, BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden >>> persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government >>> propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media >>> influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it. >>> Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?". >>> The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs. >>> None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work. >>> Unfortunately it works far too well. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Nov 10 19:49:32 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 14:49:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> Yesterday I had lunch with an old lady (late 80s) who showed me pictures of her family. One of the girls (a granddaughter) is pregnant. Old lady says to me: "I told her this was a terrible time to be having children as the world is going to end in 10 years". I did not take the bait, as I really didn't want lunch to devolve into a fight, but when I walked her out to her car I saw stickers all over it: "keep abortion legal", "ban fracking", "New Green Deal", and many stickers for Green groups. The car however was an old Subaru, not an EV. Maybe she's given up hope, it's too late, doom doom doom? Indeed *her* world *is* likely to end within 10 years but damn.... What a thing to tell a young mother-to-be. Very sad. One thing Humans have going for them is their major adaptability. She seems to have lost track of that aspect completely. Regards, MB Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote: > I met someone at university who told me that he wasn?t having children because of climate change. That is the moment I realized these people are radicals. This person is also a communist. I think many of the revolutions are just modern day holy crusades. People seem to feel the need to believe in something to worship and something to fight, lest we regress into boredom. > From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 19:51:53 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:51:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Especially for young people (first three or four decades), Green/extreme environmentalism/catastrophism has replaced standard religions but meets most of the same "needs". Max We are often dissing the average person because we think that they are likely authoritarians. And why? We think it's because they want to be told how to do everything in life and how to live and what to believe. Sheep following a leader. What percentage of the population is that? I wish I knew. Think how many teens and even younger kids go through a period, perhaps lifelong, of disrespecting authority, sometimes following revelations that their parents and others are hypocrites who don't practice what they preach. I must not have gotten the right genes: the idea of bowing my head and kneeling and asking for enlightenment and forgiveness is anathema to me. I very highly respect many people, modern and historical, but kowtowing? Not me, not ever. I wonder how many in this group have a worship need? Isn't 'authoritarian libertarian' an oxymoron? bill w On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 1:13 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I met someone at university who told me that he wasn?t having children > because of climate change. That is the moment I realized these people are > radicals. This person is also a communist. I think many of the revolutions > are just modern day holy crusades. People seem to feel the need to believe > in something to worship and something to fight, lest we regress into > boredom. > > On Nov 10, 2022, at 12:52 PM, Max More via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Perhaps one reason that church attendance is down is that the Green > religion has gained so many followers and they don't have churches (at > least in the usual sense). The Green religion has its own original sin > (humankind's separation from nature due to intelligence and technology), > its own god or goddess (Gaia/the Earth/Nature), its own indulgences (carbon > offsets), its sacrifices (give up your inexpensive cars in favor of > expensive electric vehicles -- and pretend that the latter are powered by > "green energy"), its own prophets (Al Gore, Bill McKibben, Michael Mann, > and many others), and it follows authoritarian, faith-based modes of > thinking -- believe The Science (TM), combined with apocalyptic > pronouncements and predictions that are adjusted every time they fail. > > Especially for young people (first three or four decades), Green/extreme > environmentalism/catastrophism has replaced standard religions but meets > most of the same "needs". > > --Max > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2022 10:29 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] us > > Church attendance is down, I hear. Look at the doctrines - Man is doomed > via the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden. All of us have to be saved from > what we are, which is a bundle of unforgiven sin. And the only way to do > that is to join the 'true' church, whatever that might be locally. > > Those on the edge reject Original Sin, I think, in favor of Mother Nature, > panpsychism, and more. Future historians will take our age as a most > interesting mess re religion, formal or informal. bill w > > These are far more positive approaches to gods than all the major > religions hold. > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 11:16 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The professor I did research under at university is a Muslim. He once told > me that he was raising one of his sons agnostic. I was really surprised at > the time as that seemed to go completely against doctrine. I think people > leaning on the edge tend to view religion itself as mostly a man-made > construct made up of largely arbitrary rules while at the same time > recognizing the fundamental existence of God. The trend seems to be that > religion is becoming more individualistic and open to interpretation. In a > personalized religion divorced from rigid doctrine it shouldn?t matter much > what other people believe. > > On Nov 10, 2022, at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Those near the border of skepticism and belief have a hard time when it > comes to their children. Let them experience religion first hand in a > church? Keep them away? Let them know your doubt? And so on. Tough > decisions for the agnostic (though not for the hard bitten atheist). bill w > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 5:42 PM Tara Maya via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I imagine it's a Red Queen's arms race between the persuaders and the > skeptics--made more difficult that we each play both roles at different > times in our lives. > > Tara Maya > > On Nov 8, 2022, at 8:07 AM, BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Heh! :) Western societies live in an environment of hidden > persuaders. Billions spent on advertising persuasion, government > propaganda, religious cults indoctrinating members, social media > influencers, etc. It is so prevalent that we don't even notice it. > Like a fish asking, "What is this water that you talk about?". > The Chinese have large camps to indoctrinate Uyghurs. > None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work. > Unfortunately it works far too well. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 10 20:38:13 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 12:38:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] us >...Yesterday I had lunch with an old lady (late 80s) who showed me pictures of her family. One of the girls (a granddaughter) is pregnant. Old lady says to me: "I told her this was a terrible time to be having children as the world is going to end in 10 years"... MB MB you are just too nice. I woulda been sorely tempted to say (while struggling to maintain a straight face): "It isn't ten years. It's It was 12 years on 22 January 2019. So now the world will end in 8 years, 2 months and ten days!" Then I would hand her the bill for the lunch and say "So just pay for it." Oh I am so evil, I can scarcely stand myself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHk8nn0nw18 I have had a lot of fun with that young politician's comment over the past three years none months, 20 days (I mute the sound and just watch her speak (regardless of one's politics, she is smoking hot.)) I like little old ladies, so I might not have said anything either. Especially if she is hot, as Dr. Jill Stein and Julie Andrews are now. With Julie, you don't even need to kill the sound. MB what you heard at lunch yesterday is a modern replacement for the religious apocalyptic movement popular a century ago and is still with us to some extent today. In accordance with this thread, something had to replace that religion. Now it is rising tide and bigger hurricanes, coming to punish those who sin against Gaia by burning hydrocarbons. What puzzles me is how the climate apocalypse crowd think either of these things will cause the world to end. We have pleeeeenty of real estate up here higher than the tides will reach, even if all the ice on the planet melted away, plenty of farm land, plenty of resources way above 200 ft ASL. Why will losing Florida and a few percent of the land along the coastal areas cause the world to end? Anyone? spike From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 20:43:50 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 20:43:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 at 19:52, MB via extropy-chat wrote: > > Yesterday I had lunch with an old lady (late 80s) who showed me pictures > of her family. One of the girls (a granddaughter) is pregnant. Old > lady says to me: "I told her this was a terrible time to be having > children as the world is going to end in 10 years". > > I did not take the bait, as I really didn't want lunch to devolve into a > fight, but when I walked her out to her car I saw stickers all over it: > "keep abortion legal", "ban fracking", "New Green Deal", and many > stickers for Green groups. The car however was an old Subaru, not an > EV. Maybe she's given up hope, it's too late, doom doom doom? > > Indeed *her* world *is* likely to end within 10 years but damn.... What > a thing to tell a young mother-to-be. > > Very sad. One thing Humans have going for them is their major > adaptability. She seems to have lost track of that aspect completely. > > Regards, > MB > _______________________________________________ Your old lady is not alone in her belief. There is a huge campaign going on that she has joined. Quotes: 23 Dec 2021 Inside the 10-year race to save the planet. Humanity has the power and the knowledge to reverse the harm and restore land and oceans ? if it acts now. This is why the United Nations declared the Decade on Ecosystem Restoration. By 2030, the world must nearly halve greenhouse gas emissions to prevent devastating climate change. Huge progress is needed to meet the Sustainable Development Goals, from eliminating poverty and fighting disease to safeguarding biodiversity. Since its launch, millions of people have already joined or engaged with #GenerationRestoration through its many channels, including concerts, performances, projects and social media campaigns. Young people with the most to lose from a degraded planet are leading the charge ? more than half of the audience using the UN Decade?s online tools are below the age of 35. ---------------------- Your old lady hasn't given up. She's campaigning to get action taken to save the world! BillK From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 21:10:32 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 21:10:32 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Driverless robotaxis now in Phoenix. Message-ID: Now anyone can hail a Waymo robotaxi in downtown Phoenix Rebecca Bellan November 10, 2022 Quote: The expansion in Phoenix is yet another sign of Waymo?s accelerated push towards commercialization. It comes a day after Waymo secured its driverless deployment permit from the California Department of Motor Vehicles, which allows Waymo to charge for autonomous services, like delivery, in San Francisco. More importantly, it?s a prerequisite to securing the California Public Utilities Commission?s own driverless deployment permit, which Waymo needs to operate a commercial robotaxi service with no human safety operator in the city. Waymo?s service in downtown Phoenix will mirror the one it has operated in Chandler, Arizona since 2020. It will be a paid rider-only service that?s available 24/7 to anyone who downloads the app and hails a ride Waymo?s service area. --------------- Will all the Uber drivers soon be unemployed? BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 21:31:58 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 15:31:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Why will losing Florida and a few percent of the land along the coastal areas cause the world to end? Anyone? spike Spike, you talk as if these people were human versions of Chicken Little. As a parallel, think of the people in California (near Los Angeles?) whose houses slide down hill in heavy rainstorms. Isn't that a clear warning signal to change zoning laws to prevent future buildings? Maybe these people think that they have to beat people over the head to get their attention, and exaggeration is part of that strategy. ----------------------- When I was in my 40s I remarked to a friend that a girl student was very attractive. He pointed out that her mother, who was a librarian, was very attractive herself, and so she was. Now, at our advanced ages, we can enjoy the attractiveness of their grandmothers. (I hope it goes no further than this!) bill w On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 2:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] us > > >...Yesterday I had lunch with an old lady (late 80s) who showed me > pictures of her family. One of the girls (a granddaughter) is pregnant. > Old lady says to me: "I told her this was a terrible time to be having > children as the world is going to end in 10 years"... MB > > > MB you are just too nice. I woulda been sorely tempted to say (while > struggling to maintain a straight face): "It isn't ten years. It's It was > 12 years on 22 January 2019. So now the world will end in 8 years, 2 > months and ten days!" Then I would hand her the bill for the lunch and say > "So just pay for it." > > Oh I am so evil, I can scarcely stand myself. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHk8nn0nw18 > > I have had a lot of fun with that young politician's comment over the past > three years none months, 20 days (I mute the sound and just watch her speak > (regardless of one's politics, she is smoking hot.)) I like little old > ladies, so I might not have said anything either. Especially if she is > hot, as Dr. Jill Stein and Julie Andrews are now. With Julie, you don't > even need to kill the sound. > > MB what you heard at lunch yesterday is a modern replacement for the > religious apocalyptic movement popular a century ago and is still with us > to some extent today. In accordance with this thread, something had to > replace that religion. Now it is rising tide and bigger hurricanes, coming > to punish those who sin against Gaia by burning hydrocarbons. > > What puzzles me is how the climate apocalypse crowd think either of these > things will cause the world to end. We have pleeeeenty of real estate up > here higher than the tides will reach, even if all the ice on the planet > melted away, plenty of farm land, plenty of resources way above 200 ft > ASL. Why will losing Florida and a few percent of the land along the > coastal areas cause the world to end? Anyone? > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 10 21:33:33 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:33:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001a01d8f54c$15f5a790$41e0f6b0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...What puzzles me is how the climate apocalypse crowd think either of these things will cause the world to end. We have pleeeeenty of real estate up here higher than the tides will reach, even if all the ice on the planet melted away, plenty of farm land, plenty of resources way above 200 ft ASL. Why will losing Florida and a few percent of the land along the coastal areas cause the world to end? Anyone? spike There will be a little bit of Florida left up there along the state line if all the ice melts. There wouldn't be a lot of room for houses, so the remaining population would be tiny. Can you imagine what that real estate would be worth? Those few people still own a representative and two senators. With foresight and prudent investment, just imagine the money to be made on that. The mind boggles. spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 10 21:59:37 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 13:59:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, 10 November, 2022 1:32 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] us Why will losing Florida and a few percent of the land along the coastal areas cause the world to end? Anyone? spike >?Spike, you talk as if these people were human versions of Chicken Little. As a parallel, think of the people in California (near Los Angeles?) whose houses slide down hill in heavy rainstorms. Isn't that a clear warning signal to change zoning laws to prevent future buildings? Maybe these people think that they have to beat people over the head to get their attention, and exaggeration is part of that strategy? Ja, but exaggeration is a bad strategy. It causes cynicism, as it did with me. I saw the original (excellent) Soylent Green movie in 1973 at an impressionable age. That was the one with Charlton Heston and Chuck Connors, two ass-kickers that we kids liked. I was age 12 then, but I was delivering papers, so I learned about a big study by a professor at Florida State University who showed that global warming is happening faster than global cooling (well at least that was a big relief.) But? the setting of the original Soylent Green is this year, 2022. One can argue that some of the scenes in Soylent Green kinda sorta came true. There are countless hordes of homeless people, but they don?t all just sit around quietly in New York. They have clumps of makeshift tents, in Los Angeles. ----------------------- >?When I was in my 40s I remarked to a friend that a girl student was very attractive. He pointed out that her mother, who was a librarian, was very attractive herself, and so she was. Now, at our advanced ages, we can enjoy the attractiveness of their grandmothers. (I hope it goes no further than this!) bill w Ja Billw, because of universal marketing submerging us with constant negative messaging, grandmothers don?t even realize why they are attractive to us, so much more so than the young fashion plates such as that politician who says the world will end in 8 years 3 months if we don?t address climate change. She has pretty eyes and nice clothes and all that, but she is silly as hell and I don?t want to be around her. If I saw her, I would surely say something snarky, such as: Madam, I addressed climate change last week. I said ?Well, hello there, Climate Change!? Then she would get pissed and stomp off. Problem solved. As Jack Nicholson would say: Sell crazy somewhere else. We are all stocked up here. With grandmothers (not including MB?s lunch companion perhaps) you don?t need to turn off your hearing aids to enjoy their company. Most grandmothers don?t realize how much that is worth to us. They don?t fully appreciate themselves. They underestimate their value in this world, all because of marketing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 10 23:28:38 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 15:28:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <004601d8f54f$bb5019c0$31f04d40$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004601d8f54f$bb5019c0$31f04d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009e01d8f55c$2ae1b120$80a51360$@rainier66.com> ? Subject: Re: [ExI] us >>?Why will losing Florida and a few percent of the land along the coastal areas cause the world to end? Anyone? spike >?Spike, you talk as if these people were human versions of Chicken Little. As a parallel, think of the people in California (near Los Angeles?) whose houses slide down hill in heavy rainstorms ? Ja. Those who built homes there accepted the risk. The risk is not in sliding down the hill so much as the risk of living anywhere near Los Angeles, oh mercy. But do let us think about this a minute or more. As an impressionable child, I read Herman Kahn?s Thinking About the Unthinkable, which is about what humans do we do if we unleash world war 3, nukes and all: most people die, the world as we know it comes to an end. But not everyone dies. So? what do they do? What happens after the world ends? We can ask the same questions about global warming (or climate change if one wants to cover all the bases (given a choice between nuclear war and climate chance? I?ll taaaake? hmmmm? such a difficult choice? Global Warming for 500 please Alex.)) Climate change isn?t unthinkable at all. We can think about it. OK suppose the most pessimistic doomsday profits are right, we really did steal and destroy Greta Thunberg?s childhood, even if I don?t recall doing so, her grim prophecies come to pass, the world ends in less than 9 years. What happens after that? I predict? most people wouldn?t notice the world ended. They never heard of the doomsday profits or their grim predictions, their world continues as it did the day before. 22 Jan 2030 looks just like 21 Jan 2030, it?s a Tuesday, so put the cans on the street, the post-apocalyptic trash guy is coming, and tonight is spaghetti with garlic bread, etc. I predict most of us won?t notice the world ended. We long since quit looking for hiding places to stash Greta?s stolen childhood (now that she is 27 we are looking for hiding places if we manage to steal her young adulthood.) But think about it: suppose the grim models are correct. What specifically ends on 21 Jan 2030? Or if you don?t accept that particular profit of doom, pick a date, tell me what you consider is a worst case scenario. Because it looks to me like we have waaaaaay bigger worries, far more immediate concerns than that. It also looks to me like we have time to deal if the profits are right. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5826 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Fri Nov 11 02:38:11 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 18:38:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <009e01d8f55c$2ae1b120$80a51360$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004601d8f54f$bb5019c0$31f04d40$@rainier66.com> <009e01d8f55c$2ae1b120$80a51360$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7221F83D-18CB-4732-8261-1DFAF05D7142@taramayastales.com> I'm so tired of the doom and gloom. I don't like getting into arguments with people in person, so I'm trying to at least reverse the domination of science fiction by Dystopias. I'm going write, if not Utopias, at least Bright Futures again. I suspect some of you know about the Seastead Movement. I am pretty sure I learned about it on this list. :) Anyway, I am working on a series set in on a Seastead and aim it at young adult female readers. Instead of crying about how humans cause all the problems, I want to see fiction that shows humans solving the problems. We used to have a lot more sf like that! Tara Maya > On Nov 10, 2022, at 3:28 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > OK suppose the most pessimistic doomsday profits are right, we really did > steal and destroy Greta Thunberg?s childhood, even if I don?t recall doing > so, her grim prophecies come to pass, the world ends in less than 9 years. > What happens after that? I predict? most people wouldn?t notice the world > ended. They never heard of the doomsday profits or their grim predictions, > their world continues as it did the day before. 22 Jan 2030 looks just like > 21 Jan 2030, it?s a Tuesday, so put the cans on the street, the > post-apocalyptic trash guy is coming, and tonight is spaghetti with garlic > bread, etc. I predict most of us won?t notice the world ended. We long > since quit looking for hiding places to stash Greta?s stolen childhood (now > that she is 27 we are looking for hiding places if we manage to steal her > young adulthood.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 03:39:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 19:39:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <7221F83D-18CB-4732-8261-1DFAF05D7142@taramayastales.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004601d8f54f$bb5019c0$31f04d40$@rainier66.com> <009e01d8f55c$2ae1b120$80a51360$@rainier66.com> <7221F83D-18CB-4732-8261-1DFAF05D7142@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <002f01d8f57f$34aa3010$9dfe9030$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Tara Maya via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] us I'm so tired of the doom and gloom. I don't like getting into arguments with people in person, so I'm trying to at least reverse the domination of science fiction by Dystopias. I'm going write, if not Utopias, at least Bright Futures again. I suspect some of you know about the Seastead Movement. I am pretty sure I learned about it on this list. :) Anyway, I am working on a series set in on a Seastead and aim it at young adult female readers. Instead of crying about how humans cause all the problems, I want to see fiction that shows humans solving the problems. We used to have a lot more sf like that! Tara Maya That?s the spirit Tara. I think we have every justification for writing sci-fi in which humanity figures out workable solutions to the most vexing problems and creates a terrific planet where nearly everyone doesn?t starve, has a reasonably good chance at success if they grab for it, kinda like a worldwide version of the USA pretty much, which is to say? some people still have lives which suck, but most have it pretty good. They can get a decent education, they have enough to eat and so on. Life isn?t yet perfect and life isn?t yet fair but life is good. Write on! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 14:59:17 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 08:59:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Off on a tangent: if you think the climate debate is a lot of exaggeration and is a bad strategy, how can we go about selling nuclear energy? Here in the good old USA we don't have the rabid critics like Japan and Europe bashing nuclear energy. So why aren't we building more of those plants? All the accidents came from human error, not from the source of the energy itself. old post - Dan accused you of leaning to the right. More or less defending Trump, as you did to me. I just don't understand how one can be neutral about a person who was described by his aides as a 'baby'. Or one who suggested that people inject bleach into themselves. Neutral? bill w On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 4:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, 10 November, 2022 1:32 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] us > > > > Why will losing Florida and a few percent of the land along the coastal > areas cause the world to end? Anyone? spike > > > > >?Spike, you talk as if these people were human versions of Chicken > Little. As a parallel, think of the people in California (near Los > Angeles?) whose houses slide down hill in heavy rainstorms. Isn't that a > clear warning signal to change zoning laws to prevent future buildings? > Maybe these people think that they have to beat people over the head to > get their attention, and exaggeration is part of that strategy? > > > > > > Ja, but exaggeration is a bad strategy. It causes cynicism, as it did > with me. I saw the original (excellent) Soylent Green movie in 1973 at an > impressionable age. That was the one with Charlton Heston and Chuck > Connors, two ass-kickers that we kids liked. I was age 12 then, but I was > delivering papers, so I learned about a big study by a professor at Florida > State University who showed that global warming is happening faster than > global cooling (well at least that was a big relief.) > > > > But? the setting of the original Soylent Green is this year, 2022. > > > > One can argue that some of the scenes in Soylent Green kinda sorta came > true. There are countless hordes of homeless people, but they don?t all > just sit around quietly in New York. They have clumps of makeshift tents, > in Los Angeles. > > > > > > ----------------------- > > >?When I was in my 40s I remarked to a friend that a girl student was > very attractive. He pointed out that her mother, who was a librarian, was > very attractive herself, and so she was. Now, at our advanced ages, we can > enjoy the attractiveness of their grandmothers. (I hope it goes no > further than this!) bill w > > > > Ja Billw, because of universal marketing submerging us with constant > negative messaging, grandmothers don?t even realize why they are attractive > to us, so much more so than the young fashion plates such as that > politician who says the world will end in 8 years 3 months if we don?t > address climate change. She has pretty eyes and nice clothes and all that, > but she is silly as hell and I don?t want to be around her. If I saw her, > I would surely say something snarky, such as: Madam, I addressed climate > change last week. I said ?Well, hello there, Climate Change!? Then she > would get pissed and stomp off. Problem solved. As Jack Nicholson would > say: Sell crazy somewhere else. We are all stocked up here. > > > > With grandmothers (not including MB?s lunch companion perhaps) you don?t > need to turn off your hearing aids to enjoy their company. Most > grandmothers don?t realize how much that is worth to us. They don?t fully > appreciate themselves. They underestimate their value in this world, all > because of marketing. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri Nov 11 15:07:39 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:07:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <15be0186-d708-72ec-a157-b8cb10781541@main.nc.us> What I find astonishing is that anyone would believe that "bleach" thing. Why would you take that man's word on medical care? Medical training and expertice? I don't think so.... As our moms used to say, "and if he told you to jump off the roof you would do it?" Regards, MB William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:> I just don't understand how one can be neutral> about a person who was described by his aides as a 'baby'. Or one who> suggested that people inject bleach into themselves. Neutral? From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 15:57:56 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 07:57:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] us >?Off on a tangent: if you think the climate debate is a lot of exaggeration and is a bad strategy, how can we go about selling nuclear energy? Here in the good old USA we don't have the rabid critics like Japan and Europe bashing nuclear energy. So why aren't we building more of those plants? All the accidents came from human error, not from the source of the energy itself? Billw, note the difference between saying the climate debate is a lot of exaggeration to saying the climate change brings about the end of the world. That whole end of the world business is a huge exaggeration. I accept that climate change is real. I don?t believe it causes the end of the world, or that it will happen in 8 years, 2 months, 9 days or any absurd variation on that. This old planet has been here a long time, and we have really good evidence that things do not change quickly. We have good evidence that nearly all the carbon on this planet was once in the form of carbon dioxide, in a period when the sun was more intense than it is now, and yet life found a way to evolve to the point where it drew most of that carbon out of the atmosphere and used it for living tissue. All existing coal, oil and natural gas was once in the form of carbon dioxide and methane. Now it isn?t. Increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will cause increased greenhouse effect according to all the models I can understand. That should increase the number and intensity of hurricanes and melt ice everywhere. I contend that these will happen slowly enough that we can deal with it. I do not think either of these will cause the end of the world. But what if it does? If the world does end, what happens after the world has ended? What about all those who fail to notice the world is over? What if they go on about their business as usual, pretending the world just went on as before? How do we notify the fools that the world ended, they are dead, so they should stop what they are doing, fall down and be still? Should there be some penalty for those who fail to die? Reminds me of a favorite old song about why do the birds keep on singing, the sun keep on shining, don?t they know it?s the end of the world, it ended when global warming melted the ice? Here?s a treat: https://youtu.be/ThK5M8Ttzpw >?old post - Dan accused you of leaning to the right. More or less defending Trump, as you did to me. I just don't understand how one can be neutral about a person who was described by his aides as a 'baby'. Or one who suggested that people inject bleach into themselves. Neutral bill w Billw this is an example of how exaggeration causes cynicism. Trump never suggested injecting or ingesting bleach. He suggested a injecting a disinfectant, which most of us here did inject when they became available. A disinfectant fights infections: it helps prevent covid infection but also fights existing covid in the body. The mRNA vaccine is a disinfectant. That part about bleach was an extrapolation, injected for political advantage. It worked, for a while. Solution: don?t go to political leaders for medical advice. Go to medics for that. Go to political leaders for political leadership. Ignore their medical suggestions. Ignore your doctor?s political advice. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 16:18:13 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:18:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: All of your advice about the virus is for intelligent people. A President speaks to all and should know just how deficient many are, and will follow whatever their idols say. bill w On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 9:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] us > > > > >?Off on a tangent: if you think the climate debate is a lot of > exaggeration and is a bad strategy, how can we go about selling nuclear > energy? Here in the good old USA we don't have the rabid critics like > Japan and Europe bashing nuclear energy. So why aren't we building more of > those plants? All the accidents came from human error, not from the source > of the energy itself? > > > > Billw, note the difference between saying the climate debate is a lot of > exaggeration to saying the climate change brings about the end of the > world. That whole end of the world business is a huge exaggeration. I > accept that climate change is real. I don?t believe it causes the end of > the world, or that it will happen in 8 years, 2 months, 9 days or any > absurd variation on that. This old planet has been here a long time, and > we have really good evidence that things do not change quickly. > > > > We have good evidence that nearly all the carbon on this planet was once > in the form of carbon dioxide, in a period when the sun was more intense > than it is now, and yet life found a way to evolve to the point where it > drew most of that carbon out of the atmosphere and used it for living > tissue. All existing coal, oil and natural gas was once in the form of > carbon dioxide and methane. Now it isn?t. > > > > Increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will cause increased greenhouse > effect according to all the models I can understand. That should increase > the number and intensity of hurricanes and melt ice everywhere. I contend > that these will happen slowly enough that we can deal with it. I do not > think either of these will cause the end of the world. > > > > But what if it does? If the world does end, what happens after the world > has ended? What about all those who fail to notice the world is over? > What if they go on about their business as usual, pretending the world just > went on as before? How do we notify the fools that the world ended, they > are dead, so they should stop what they are doing, fall down and be still? > Should there be some penalty for those who fail to die? > > > > Reminds me of a favorite old song about why do the birds keep on singing, > the sun keep on shining, don?t they know it?s the end of the world, it > ended when global warming melted the ice? > > > > Here?s a treat: > > > > https://youtu.be/ThK5M8Ttzpw > > > > >?old post - Dan accused you of leaning to the right. More or less > defending Trump, as you did to me. I just don't understand how one can be > neutral about a person who was described by his aides as a 'baby'. Or one > who suggested that people inject bleach into themselves. Neutral bill w > > > > > > Billw this is an example of how exaggeration causes cynicism. Trump never > suggested injecting or ingesting bleach. He suggested a injecting a > disinfectant, which most of us here did inject when they became available. > A disinfectant fights infections: it helps prevent covid infection but also > fights existing covid in the body. The mRNA vaccine is a disinfectant. > That part about bleach was an extrapolation, injected for political > advantage. It worked, for a while. > > > > Solution: don?t go to political leaders for medical advice. Go to medics > for that. Go to political leaders for political leadership. Ignore their > medical suggestions. Ignore your doctor?s political advice. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 16:18:33 2022 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:18:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Billw this is an example of how exaggeration causes cynicism. Trump never > suggested injecting or ingesting bleach. He suggested a injecting a > disinfectant, which most of us here did inject when they became available. > A disinfectant fights infections: it helps prevent covid infection but also > fights existing covid in the body. The mRNA vaccine is a disinfectant. > That part about bleach was an extrapolation, injected for political > advantage. It worked, for a while. > No, vaccines aren't disinfectants. A disinfectant is a chemical that kills microbes directly. A vaccine prepares the host's immune system to attack a specific microbe. A world leader should know better than to speculate about possible medical treatments in public. Solution: don?t go to political leaders for medical advice. Go to medics > for that. > Of course. > Go to political leaders for political leadership. > Good luck with that. Seriously. IMO, the less "leadership" we have, the better off we are. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 17:55:30 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:55:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006601d8f5f6$ca8e6840$5fab38c0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] us >?All of your advice about the virus is for intelligent people. A President speaks to all and should know just how deficient many are, and will follow whatever their idols say. bill w They sure will Billw, which is why people may have been injured or even died as a result of the words spoken by those who claimed Trump suggested drinking bleach. He said nothing about bleach. No president has ever said anyone should drink bleach. But others claimed he did. Those who said Trump suggested drinking bleach may have leveraged a lie to a political advantage by tricking Trump followers into injuring or killing themselves. This is immoral. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 17:58:20 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:58:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Good luck with that. Seriously. IMO, the less "leadership" we have, the better off we are.-Dave let's hear it for gridlock!! bill w On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 10:26 AM Dave S via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> Billw this is an example of how exaggeration causes cynicism. Trump >> never suggested injecting or ingesting bleach. He suggested a injecting a >> disinfectant, which most of us here did inject when they became available. >> A disinfectant fights infections: it helps prevent covid infection but also >> fights existing covid in the body. The mRNA vaccine is a disinfectant. >> That part about bleach was an extrapolation, injected for political >> advantage. It worked, for a while. >> > > No, vaccines aren't disinfectants. A disinfectant is a chemical that kills > microbes directly. A vaccine prepares the host's immune system to attack a > specific microbe. A world leader should know better than to speculate about > possible medical treatments in public. > > Solution: don?t go to political leaders for medical advice. Go to medics >> for that. >> > > Of course. > > >> Go to political leaders for political leadership. >> > > Good luck with that. Seriously. IMO, the less "leadership" we have, the > better off we are. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:01:59 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:01:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <006601d8f5f6$ca8e6840$5fab38c0$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> <006601d8f5f6$ca8e6840$5fab38c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, what I hear you saying: what is true here depends on who you believe. Of course both sides can be wrong and we'll never find out what is true. Is there anything that comes out of DC that isn't an exaggeration with a left or right slant? As you say, there isn't a neutral source. bill w On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 11:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] us > > > > >?All of your advice about the virus is for intelligent people. A > President speaks to all and should know just how deficient many are, and > will follow whatever their idols say. > > > > bill w > > > > > > They sure will Billw, which is why people may have been injured or even > died as a result of the words spoken by those who claimed Trump suggested > drinking bleach. He said nothing about bleach. No president has ever said > anyone should drink bleach. But others claimed he did. Those who said > Trump suggested drinking bleach may have leveraged a lie to a political > advantage by tricking Trump followers into injuring or killing themselves. > This is immoral. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 18:11:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:11:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008c01d8f5f9$125df940$3719ebc0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat ? >?No, vaccines aren't disinfectants. A disinfectant is a chemical that kills microbes directly. A vaccine prepares the host's immune system to attack a specific microbe. A world leader should know better than to speculate about possible medical treatments in public? Granted that matter shouldn?t be discussed by politicians. However, if it is, it shouldn?t be leveraged by politicians to political advantage by modifying the statement to trick one?s political opponents? followers into drinking bleach, which is what may have happened. We end up splitting hairs on the definition of disinfectant. A virus infects a host. Anything that fights that infection is (in my mind) literally a disinfectant. The current definition of the term specifies bacteria, and viruses are not bacteria, so perhaps one could argue that direction. Let us run with this just a bit. If a politician suggests ingesting a disinfectant, then opposing politicians substitute a more specific term than ?disinfectant? such as bleach, then may we also substitute a less specific term? Bleach, and all disinfectants are artificial disease fighting agents, this being a general term which includes all disinfectants including bleach. So is it then OK to say the politician suggested ingesting an artificial disease fighting agent? Would it be OK to say that means the same thing? If that is OK, then those who opposed that statement oppose artificial disease fighting agents, which means they also oppose vaccines. Are we anti-vaxers now Dave? It is misleading to substitute a different term for what was actually said, either more specific or more general. Go to political leaders for political leadership. >?Good luck with that. Seriously. IMO, the less "leadership" we have, the better off we are. -Dave Dave you and I are in rare full agreement on that comment. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 18:27:48 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:27:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> <006601d8f5f6$ca8e6840$5fab38c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b701d8f5fb$4d8d9370$e8a8ba50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] us Spike, what I hear you saying: what is true here depends on who you believe. Of course both sides can be wrong and we'll never find out what is true. Is there anything that comes out of DC that isn't an exaggeration with a left or right slant? As you say, there isn't a neutral source. bill w On the contrary Billw, we have the exact quote, recorded on video. When quoting someone, the exact words must be quoted, without substituting a different word, without inserting or deleting a single word. We had a case where an FBI agent was caught and convicted of falsifying evidence for inserting a single word into a statement. That word was ?not.? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:53:03 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 18:53:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <00b701d8f5fb$4d8d9370$e8a8ba50$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> <006601d8f5f6$ca8e6840$5fab38c0$@rainier66.com> <00b701d8f5fb$4d8d9370$e8a8ba50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 at 18:30, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > On the contrary Billw, we have the exact quote, recorded on video. When quoting someone, the exact words must be quoted, without substituting a different word, without inserting or deleting a single word. We had a case where an FBI agent was caught and convicted of falsifying evidence for inserting a single word into a statement. That word was ?not.? > > spike > _______________________________________________ Arguing about the lies that flood out of politicians is a waste of time. Check Politifact.com The bleach drinking was a Biden lie about Trump. But Trump didn't help with his vague speculations about disinfection. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 19:44:36 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:44:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> <006601d8f5f6$ca8e6840$5fab38c0$@rainier66.com> <00b701d8f5fb$4d8d9370$e8a8ba50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000e01d8f606$086bf880$1943e980$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat _______________________________________________ >...Arguing about the lies that flood out of politicians is a waste of time. Check Politifact.com The bleach drinking was a Biden lie about Trump. But Trump didn't help with his vague speculations about disinfection. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja, sheesh. BillK, comparing what was said with what was said was said, I see little resemblance. There was far more resemblance in the modified statements for which the FBI agent was caught and convicted: the only difference was the word "not." The disinfectant comments were made back when it was widely thought that covid could survive and infect from surface contact. We were told that we should use disinfectant hand soap, but disinfectants don't "kill" viruses, which are already... well, not dead exactly but not living exactly either. If the notion is to physically remove the virus from one's hands (which makes sense) then the disinfectant qualities of the saponifier are irrelevant, for those would only apply to bacteria. A saponifier would physically remove the virus from one's hands, after which it would go down the drain, at which time it is irrelevant if it is still viable, assuming the term viable is applicable to a virus. Alcohol is a disinfectant, and plenty of people ingest that stuff on a regular basis. But do we know for sure that some disinfectants cannot destroy viruses? I must think they can and do in some cases. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 19:48:33 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:48:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral Message-ID: <001701d8f606$958fde20$c0af9a60$@rainier66.com> BillK, regarding that UV light business, consider microwave ovens. Those are tuned to the resonant frequency of water, about 2.45 GHz. The plates contain no water, so they don't get hot. However... we know of some frequencies which will heat the plates without heating the water. Same principle applies: resonance at the frequency of the material of the plates but not the food. OK then, we know of some kinds of light which do pass through the body but don't hurt anything (in reasonable doses.) You were likely exposed to them recently at the dentist office. OK suppose there is a frequency which resonates a molecule in a virus, perhaps causing that bond to break, but leaving the rest of the molecules intact in anything else which is not that virus. Could not we get a few thousand bats with C-19, dose each of them with a flash of some frequency well above visible light (for we know every life form on earth can survive visible light.) See which bats recover from the virus and which ones perish from a dose of whatever frequency with which we just whacked them. Note that the band we call X-rays span three full orders of magnitude in frequency. Do we know for sure there isn't a specific frequency in there somewhere which wrecks a particular virus without hurting anything else? How do we know that? Was it tried? Last week I went to Stanford for a CT scan. That works by exciting a specific atom (calcium) using a rotating magnetic field (thanks James Clerk Maxwell.) What if... there is some way to put a patient into modified a CT scan machine that somehow excites some unknown molecule or chemical bond in C-19 without wrecking anything else? Has that been tried? Who tried it, when? What if a number of C-19 infected volunteers wish to try something like that? Or if we were to get a bunch of infected bats and try it on them first? How do we get new treatments and therapies other than just trying any wacky idea and seeing which ones simultaneously seem to help and do not slay the proles? Isn't that what we call medical research? Probably won't work of course, but I figure that's why we call it research, rather than refind. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 20:11:16 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 20:11:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <000e01d8f606$086bf880$1943e980$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> <006601d8f5f6$ca8e6840$5fab38c0$@rainier66.com> <00b701d8f5fb$4d8d9370$e8a8ba50$@rainier66.com> <000e01d8f606$086bf880$1943e980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 at 19:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Alcohol is a disinfectant, and plenty of people ingest that stuff on a regular basis. But do we know for sure that some disinfectants cannot destroy viruses? I must think they can and do in some cases. > > spike > _______________________________________________ EPA regulates the claims on?disinfectant product labels. EPA expects all products on List N to kill all variants of SARS-CoV-2. Before a company can sell or market a disinfectant whose label claims to kill a certain pathogen, EPA must authorize that claim during the registration process. BillK From gadersd at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 20:20:53 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 15:20:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: <001701d8f606$958fde20$c0af9a60$@rainier66.com> References: <001701d8f606$958fde20$c0af9a60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <4B858039-34B3-41E3-9981-AE6887C91AED@gmail.com> I can hardly wait until cell/virus simulations become feasible. Then people can test ideas such as these on supercomputers without needing approval from the government to test using ?real? pathogens. I am sure the progress of medical research would then be greatly accelerated. > On Nov 11, 2022, at 2:48 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > BillK, regarding that UV light business, consider microwave ovens. Those are tuned to the resonant frequency of water, about 2.45 GHz. The plates contain no water, so they don't get hot. However... we know of some frequencies which will heat the plates without heating the water. Same principle applies: resonance at the frequency of the material of the plates but not the food. > > OK then, we know of some kinds of light which do pass through the body but don't hurt anything (in reasonable doses.) You were likely exposed to them recently at the dentist office. OK suppose there is a frequency which resonates a molecule in a virus, perhaps causing that bond to break, but leaving the rest of the molecules intact in anything else which is not that virus. Could not we get a few thousand bats with C-19, dose each of them with a flash of some frequency well above visible light (for we know every life form on earth can survive visible light.) See which bats recover from the virus and which ones perish from a dose of whatever frequency with which we just whacked them. > > Note that the band we call X-rays span three full orders of magnitude in frequency. Do we know for sure there isn't a specific frequency in there somewhere which wrecks a particular virus without hurting anything else? How do we know that? Was it tried? > > Last week I went to Stanford for a CT scan. That works by exciting a specific atom (calcium) using a rotating magnetic field (thanks James Clerk Maxwell.) What if... there is some way to put a patient into modified a CT scan machine that somehow excites some unknown molecule or chemical bond in C-19 without wrecking anything else? Has that been tried? Who tried it, when? What if a number of C-19 infected volunteers wish to try something like that? Or if we were to get a bunch of infected bats and try it on them first? > > How do we get new treatments and therapies other than just trying any wacky idea and seeing which ones simultaneously seem to help and do not slay the proles? Isn?t that what we call medical research? Probably won?t work of course, but I figure that?s why we call it research, rather than refind. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 20:25:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:25:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: <001c01d8f606$962ae5a0$c280b0e0$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d8f606$962ae5a0$c280b0e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002d01d8f60b$ca797420$5f6c5c60$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: uv as an antiviral >...BillK, regarding that UV light business... that's why we call it research, rather than refind. spike BillK my apologies for belaboring this point, but I had a new wacky idea. Recall that when the mRNA vaccines became available in 2020, other wacky lines of research were abandoned. We had the vaccine, hooray! But then... we found out that C-19 could evolve around that mRNA "vaccine" then we found out that the "vaccine" doesn't train the T-cells, then we found out "immunity" doesn't last very long, then we found out that it doesn't necessarily prevent transmission, then we found out it doesn't necessarily prevent infection or immunity, then we found out it doesn't necessarily prevent hospitalization. However, we found out that getting the vaccine is highly effective in preventing a prole from losing her job for not getting the vaccine. In that last part, the C-19 vaccine proved to be highly reliable, a very rare case of 100% efficacy. OK then, remember all those wacky ideas which were abandoned in spring of 2020? I do. Hell I supplied some wacky ideas myself. I am good at dreaming up wacky ideas. So why not go back and take a second look? Let's start with getting a CT machine with that whirring ring (young people if you don't know what I am talking about, good for you.) They put the prole on a table which moves along a single axis into and out of that ring (in a vaguely suggestive manner.) OK so now... imagine replacing the actuating single-axis table with a bigger ring, so we have a circular conveyor moving stuff thru the CT Scanner. Imagine cages with infected bats on that bigger ring. Imagine the CT scan being varied in frequency as the bats go thru in series. Do a frequency sweep, the way a sine sweep is done on machinery in vibration testing. Technicians take exposed bats off the conveyor and replace them with unexposed bats continuously as the frequency and dosage are varied. See which beasts perish from the virus, which ones perish from C-19, which ones anomalously survive the virus perhaps, which technicians perish from boredom, or end it all due to the hopelessness of their lives as they struggle to explain to their friends what they do for a living (I am a bat changer, just call me Batman.) Time to go back and look at previously-rejected ideas, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5102 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 20:35:53 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:35:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: <4B858039-34B3-41E3-9981-AE6887C91AED@gmail.com> References: <001701d8f606$958fde20$c0af9a60$@rainier66.com> <4B858039-34B3-41E3-9981-AE6887C91AED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003b01d8f60d$322912f0$967b38d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] uv as an antiviral >?I can hardly wait until cell/virus simulations become feasible. Then people can test ideas such as these on supercomputers without needing approval from the government to test using ?real? pathogens. I am sure the progress of medical research would then be greatly accelerated? Gadersd Gadersd, why wait? China already has a facility where government approval is not needed to do this kind of experimentation. So? we outsource that as contract research. The facility already has bats, technicians who know how to handle them, in Wuhan China. They have everything they need, even a nice place to have an exotic lunch nearby, everything. Failing that, or not wishing to risk having China figure out the recipe for curing C-19 without telling the rest of the world (not that it would motivate China to create viruses that it alone knows how to cure) let?s find an island somewhere out in the Pacific which is already useless for other applications such as Bikini atoll where atomic bombs were tested, put the lab out there. Have the bats handled entirely by robots. Then if we find a frequency and dosage, just nuke the place. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 20:53:54 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 20:53:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: <002d01d8f60b$ca797420$5f6c5c60$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d8f606$962ae5a0$c280b0e0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d8f60b$ca797420$5f6c5c60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 at 20:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: < snip wacky ideas> > > Time to go back and look at previously-rejected ideas, ja? > > spike > _______________________________________________ I think you might be leaping outside your area of expertise. :) Radiation therapy is much studied, especially re cancer treatments. The big problem is that viruses are really tiny, far smaller than the cells that they infect. Viruses are sub-microscopic. That's how they can drift about in the air and spread infection. Cancer radiation therapy targets destroying cancer cells. You can't target viruses because they are inside cells, throughout the human body. But research is still worth doing, if they can get funding. BillK From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 21:11:57 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 16:11:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: <003b01d8f60d$322912f0$967b38d0$@rainier66.com> References: <001701d8f606$958fde20$c0af9a60$@rainier66.com> <4B858039-34B3-41E3-9981-AE6887C91AED@gmail.com> <003b01d8f60d$322912f0$967b38d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Just wait til you hear about Plum Island and Lyme disease... On Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 3:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Gadersd via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] uv as an antiviral > > > > >?I can hardly wait until cell/virus simulations become feasible. Then > people can test ideas such as these on supercomputers without needing > approval from the government to test using ?real? pathogens. I am sure the > progress of medical research would then be greatly accelerated? Gadersd > > > > > > Gadersd, why wait? China already has a facility where government approval > is not needed to do this kind of experimentation. So? we outsource that as > contract research. The facility already has bats, technicians who know how > to handle them, in Wuhan China. They have everything they need, even a > nice place to have an exotic lunch nearby, everything. > > > > Failing that, or not wishing to risk having China figure out the recipe > for curing C-19 without telling the rest of the world (not that it would > motivate China to create viruses that it alone knows how to cure) let?s > find an island somewhere out in the Pacific which is already useless for > other applications such as Bikini atoll where atomic bombs were tested, put > the lab out there. Have the bats handled entirely by robots. Then if we > find a frequency and dosage, just nuke the place. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 21:19:47 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 13:19:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: References: <001c01d8f606$962ae5a0$c280b0e0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d8f60b$ca797420$5f6c5c60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006e01d8f613$53ee5750$fbcb05f0$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] uv as an antiviral On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 at 20:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: < snip wacky ideas> > > Time to go back and look at previously-rejected ideas, ja? > > spike > _______________________________________________ I think you might be leaping outside your area of expertise. :) Radiation therapy is much studied, especially re cancer treatments. The big problem is that viruses are really tiny, far smaller than the cells that they infect. Viruses are sub-microscopic. That's how they can drift about in the air and spread infection. Cancer radiation therapy targets destroying cancer cells. You can't target viruses because they are inside cells, throughout the human body. But research is still worth doing, if they can get funding. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja, leaping outside of my area of expertise. The experts restrict their field of view to what they know works. It is good they do that. BillK, it was a heady trip, was it not? When in spring of 2020, I recovered from a mystery illness and came home from the hospital, I started reading up on this new virus that does all the things I just recovered from, learning about mRNA and all that cool stuff, then in the fall of 2020 we started hearing of this new vaccine that might kick off the era of fighting viruses, as the medics had figured out a way to replicate mRNA the way we have already been replicating DNA with a process parallel to polymerase chain reaction. I went outside and gazed at the heavens, so in awe of myself. I recited the history of the universe. Big bang, supernovae cooked up heavy elements which clumped together to form planets. That took about 10 billion years, then three more billion for life to produce a really ass-whooping species that was technology capable, but with these tiny viruses plaguing that species and all the others on the planet. Then another hundred thousand generations of that tech-capable species for advanced technology to blossom to the point where we could finally, FINALLY, defeat the little bastards. I was in awe of myself because of all that, the thought that I, spike-freaking-Jones and all my friends are living right in that generation of that one ass-whooping species which accomplished this feat, the coolest thing in the known universe, right here right now. I begged me for my own autograph. But... since then it has been a series let-down, ja? Perhaps we haven't defeated this virus just yet. I think we are getting close, and we have definitely scored a few points, even if we are not there yet. spike From sparge at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 21:29:01 2022 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 16:29:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: <008c01d8f5f9$125df940$3719ebc0$@rainier66.com> References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> <008c01d8f5f9$125df940$3719ebc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 1:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dave wrote: > > >?No, vaccines aren't disinfectants. A disinfectant is a chemical that > kills microbes directly. A vaccine prepares the host's immune system to > attack a specific microbe. A world leader should know better than to > speculate about possible medical treatments in public? > > > > Granted that matter shouldn?t be discussed by politicians. However, if it > is, it shouldn?t be leveraged by politicians to political advantage by > modifying the statement to trick one?s political opponents? followers into > drinking bleach, which is what may have happened. > It may have been intentional or it could have just been a sloppy paraphrase. Unfortunately, Biden is old enough that you can't rule out the latter. > We end up splitting hairs on the definition of disinfectant. A virus > infects a host. Anything that fights that infection is (in my mind) > literally a disinfectant. > You're entitled to your own definitions of common terms, but don't be surprised when that causes confusion. The current definition of the term specifies bacteria, and viruses are not > bacteria, so perhaps one could argue that direction. > Again, that may be your current definition, but it's not the commonly used one. > Let us run with this just a bit. If a politician suggests ingesting a > disinfectant, then opposing politicians substitute a more specific term > than ?disinfectant? such as bleach, then may we also substitute a less > specific term? > No. > Bleach, and all disinfectants are artificial disease fighting agents, this > being a general term which includes all disinfectants including bleach. So > is it then OK to say the politician suggested ingesting an artificial > disease fighting agent? > No. > Would it be OK to say that means the same thing? > No. > If that is OK, then those who opposed that statement oppose artificial > disease fighting agents, which means they also oppose vaccines. Are we > anti-vaxers now Dave? > No. > It is misleading to substitute a different term for what was actually > said, either more specific or more general. > Agreed. > Go to political leaders for political leadership. > > >?Good luck with that. Seriously. IMO, the less "leadership" we have, the > better off we are. -Dave > > > > Dave you and I are in rare full agreement on that comment. > Cool. :-) This covid/bleach thing is a good example of the failure of both men to exhibit leadership. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 11 22:00:20 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 14:00:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] us In-Reply-To: References: <44A0BDB5-031F-4723-90A2-AFDD9C7BD464@gmail.com> <1C245C4D-B31F-48A9-973E-BC038597DA0F@gmail.com> <0132cf5a-3d4d-8e7f-80b4-40b50f33037e@main.nc.us> <00d201d8f544$5b38cce0$11aa66a0$@rainier66.com> <004101d8f54f$ba73ea90$2f5bbfb0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f5e6$5eec3050$1cc490f0$@rainier66.com> <008c01d8f5f9$125df940$3719ebc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a401d8f618$fe51a080$faf4e180$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave S via extropy-chat .. >?Dave you and I are in rare full agreement on that comment. >?Cool. :-) This covid/bleach thing is a good example of the failure of both men to exhibit leadership. -Dave Minor historic note: the term ?both men? is probably not applicable, since that substitution of terms (for a more specific term) was done by others rather than the guy who was running for nomination at the time (whose name I do not recall.) I didn?t see the current POTUS (whose name I cannot recall) say anything about bleach at the time, but of course I might have missed it. The press really ran with that ball. None of them produced a video or recording with the term ?bleach.? It was one of those where the evidence is fake but the story is real. Side note on this last part, since the entire thread is all about how exaggeration destroys trust: recall the birth of the whole ?fake news? notion started in 2004 when CBS was caught counterfeiting documents. Not knowing quite what to do, and lacking the intestinal fortitude to just own up to having been duped, CBS went with the notion that ??the evidence is fake but the story is real?? Heh. That was quite entertaining to say the least, for we had previously just taken the word of the news people as the truth as a default assumption. But after that, we carefully noted the wording: the press was only saying the story is real. They were no longer claiming the story is true, only that it is real. To claim the story is true requires actual evidence. Well OK, I agree that this is a real story. What we want to know is if it is a true story. Margaret Mitchell?s Gone With the Wind is a real story. When we watch the news, we don?t want real stories, we want only true stories. Second side note: we have caught the news people faking other evidence since then to produce dramatic real stories, specifically in the area of sending reporters out in a storm and having them go thru silly theatrics to show how brave they are. They wear big loose windbreaker raincoats, all the better to flap in the breeze, shouting into a microphone while pretending to be leaning (in the wrong direction) from the wind. They could just get a Kevlar motorcycle suit with a full-face helmet with telephone speakers and microphone already installed. Then they could report during actual hurricane-force winds, in a normal voice and get protection from flying debris. But? that doesn?t sell. The proletariat apparently want real stories rather than true stories. Oh I love the internet. Freeeeee, open, uncensored communications, what a blessing! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 03:42:43 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 14:42:43 +1100 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: <002d01d8f60b$ca797420$5f6c5c60$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d8f606$962ae5a0$c280b0e0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d8f60b$ca797420$5f6c5c60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 at 07:27, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > Subject: uv as an antiviral > > > > > > > > >...BillK, regarding that UV light business... that's why we call it > research, rather than refind. spike > > > > > > > > BillK my apologies for belaboring this point, but I had a new wacky idea. > > > > Recall that when the mRNA vaccines became available in 2020, other wacky > lines of research were abandoned. We had the vaccine, hooray! But then... > we found out that C-19 could evolve around that mRNA "vaccine" then we > found > out that the "vaccine" doesn't train the T-cells, then we found out > "immunity" doesn't last very long, then we found out that it doesn't > necessarily prevent transmission, then we found out it doesn't necessarily > prevent infection or immunity, then we found out it doesn't necessarily > prevent hospitalization. > Why couldn't they just fix it without all the mucking around? Why not sack them all and put competent people in their place? -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 12 04:58:46 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 20:58:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: References: <001c01d8f606$962ae5a0$c280b0e0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d8f60b$ca797420$5f6c5c60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005801d8f653$73119440$5934bcc0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] uv as an antiviral On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 at 07:27, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: spike at rainier66.com > Subject: uv as an antiviral >>>...BillK, regarding that UV light business... that's why we call it research, rather than refind. spike >>?BillK my apologies for belaboring this point, but I had a new wacky idea. >>?Recall that when the mRNA vaccines became available in 2020, other wacky lines of research were abandoned. We had the vaccine, hooray! But then...we found out ? >?Why couldn't they just fix it without all the mucking around? Why not sack them all and put competent people in their place? -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis I have a notion that when a technique was discovered to make generate mRNA, the whole idea was just so damn sexy we could scarcely help being seduced by it. It sure looked to me like if we could defeat one virus that way, we could defeat all of them the same way. A new strain of flu comes along every season. We grab it as soon as the first cases show up, read the RNA, synthesize a bunch of it, poke it in everybody?s arm, no flu season that year. Then once we get that one, down goes chicken pox, measles, shingles, herpes, ebola, AIDS becomes an unpleasant memory, the common cold becomes the uncommon cold because it is seldom seen. Would not we be the new Jonas Salk? The modern Alexander Fleming? We were the generation who finally made the big breakthrough. Sure, let?s have a huge victory party celebrating how awesome we are. But then? oopsies, reality messed up everything. The immune system didn?t seem to know or care there is a vaccine here to offer it training. It didn?t get any better at making the right T cells. But sure, the immune system is willing, eager to hand over that task of fighting covid if we are ready to take it over. And if we do, it doesn?t want its former job back. There was nothing wrong with the people. We were collectively seduced by a sexy idea, but wasn?t quite right. The history of science is filled with similar examples. I haven?t given up on getting an mRNA vaccine which does train the immune system. It was elation followed by disappointment, but overall good has come of it. We all learned so much about immunology, learned a lot about civics, learned a lotta about a lotta. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 12 05:27:54 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 21:27:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: <005d01d8f653$739c4810$5ad4d830$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d8f606$962ae5a0$c280b0e0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d8f60b$ca797420$5f6c5c60$@rainier66.com> <005d01d8f653$739c4810$5ad4d830$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007f01d8f657$84c302b0$8e490810$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >?There was nothing wrong with the people. We were collectively seduced by a sexy idea, but wasn?t quite right. The history of science is filled with similar examples?spike BillK, I am looking for a positive spin on my grim assessments, and I found one especially for you. The Lancet published a paper by a British team which figured out why the highly immunized Israeli population was catching a lotta covid and why the immunized population was more likely to survive even if it may have caused them to be more likely to catch. The British immunologists wrote the paper which might lead to figuring out why just adding viral mRNA to the organism doesn?t appear to train the T-cells for a quick reaction to that particular pathogen. I don?t understand why that approach doesn?t work, why introducing the mRNA doesn?t adequately train the immune system, but I ain?t an immunologist. Apparently there is another layer of complication we still don?t yet understand. As you correctly pointed out BillK, I am well outside of my area of expertise. In any case, well done British medics. May we find the solution collectively. May we achieve the level of medical competence we thought we had achieved in the fall of 2020. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3990 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 05:51:24 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:51:24 +1100 Subject: [ExI] uv as an antiviral In-Reply-To: <005801d8f653$73119440$5934bcc0$@rainier66.com> References: <001c01d8f606$962ae5a0$c280b0e0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d8f60b$ca797420$5f6c5c60$@rainier66.com> <005801d8f653$73119440$5934bcc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 at 16:00, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] uv as an antiviral > > > > > > > > On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 at 07:27, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > Subject: uv as an antiviral > > > > > > > > >>>...BillK, regarding that UV light business... that's why we call it > research, rather than refind. spike > > > >>?BillK my apologies for belaboring this point, but I had a new wacky > idea. > > >>?Recall that when the mRNA vaccines became available in 2020, other > wacky lines of research were abandoned. We had the vaccine, hooray! But > then...we found out ? > > > > >?Why couldn't they just fix it without all the mucking around? Why not > sack them all and put competent people in their place? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Stathis I have a notion that when a technique was discovered to make > generate mRNA, the whole idea was just so damn sexy we could scarcely help > being seduced by it. It sure looked to me like if we could defeat one > virus that way, we could defeat all of them the same way. A new strain of > flu comes along every season. We grab it as soon as the first cases show > up, read the RNA, synthesize a bunch of it, poke it in everybody?s arm, no > flu season that year. Then once we get that one, down goes chicken pox, > measles, shingles, herpes, ebola, AIDS becomes an unpleasant memory, the > common cold becomes the uncommon cold because it is seldom seen. > > > > Would not we be the new Jonas Salk? The modern Alexander Fleming? We > were the generation who finally made the big breakthrough. Sure, let?s > have a huge victory party celebrating how awesome we are. But then? > oopsies, reality messed up everything. The immune system didn?t seem to > know or care there is a vaccine here to offer it training. It didn?t get > any better at making the right T cells. But sure, the immune system is > willing, eager to hand over that task of fighting covid if we are ready to > take it over. And if we do, it doesn?t want its former job back. > > > > There was nothing wrong with the people. We were collectively seduced by > a sexy idea, but wasn?t quite right. The history of science is filled with > similar examples. > > > > I haven?t given up on getting an mRNA vaccine which does train the immune > system. It was elation followed by disappointment, but overall good has > come of it. We all learned so much about immunology, learned a lot about > civics, learned a lotta about a lotta. > Both vaccination and infection result in a relatively long-lasting T cell response. But if it didn?t, it didn?t. A lot that we do in medicine is only marginally effective. Vaccines in general are historically by far the single most effective medical intervention in history, if we exclude such things as improved sanitation. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-022-01175-5 -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 21:55:45 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 21:55:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! Message-ID: As Twitter seems to be collapsing, yesterday Spike decided to sign on to a possible replacement social system called Mastodon. Unfortunately his phone autocorrect feature signed him on to Mogadon instead. He is expected to wake up some time today, feeling very refreshed. :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 12 22:13:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 14:13:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] News Flash! As Twitter seems to be collapsing, yesterday Spike decided to sign on to a possible replacement social system called Mastodon. Unfortunately his phone autocorrect feature signed him on to Mogadon instead. He is expected to wake up some time today, feeling very refreshed. :) BillK _______________________________________________ Whaaaaa? None of this is correct. In reality I was spending the day collecting donated food and hauling it to the local charity, in accordance with the exhortation of Second Hezekiah chapter 97 verse 82: "Verily I say unto thee, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, do so in that order if she is hot." Well, that's not the exaaaaact quote, but my version is an improvement. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 32211 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 13 01:00:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:00:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >. In reality I was spending the day collecting donated food and hauling it to the local charity, in accordance with the exhortation of Second Hezekiah chapter 97 verse 82: "Verily I say unto thee, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, do so in that order if she is hot.". Something interesting happened today. We went out soliciting food donations last weekend, then this weekend we took the scouts out to collect the donations. The drill is to haul it back to the local food pantry and donated clothing closet, but then the big job begins. They end up getting a lotta stuff that is past the best by date, and aaaaallllll of that must be discarded. For reasons I don't understand. the food pantry is not allowed to GIVE AWAY food which is past the best by date, which makes ZERO sense to me, ZERO. Even if it is BEST by some arbitrary date, it is still GOOD by some later date. There is a local grocery store which buys up deeply discounted lots, failed marketing experiments, oddball stuff, plenty of stuff that is past its best by date still on the shelves, because it is OK to SELL stuff past the best by date, but not OK to GIVE the damn stuff away. Oy vey. So. why do I get stirred over that, you may well ask. Because a bunch of those little cans of albacore (the 5 ounce cans (PERFECT on salty crackers for long days hiking up in the local hills (because fish punches so far above its weight in food value per gram (but is kinda pricy (but I buy it anyway (ja that stuff)))))) were donated today, a biiiig heavy box of them, which I cheerfully accepted realizing those 72 cans of albacore would cost 200 bucks. Come to find out. it was a few weeks beyond its best by date, not expiration, because probably everyone here knows you can eat canned foods for 3 to 5 years past that best by date and scarcely notice the difference, particularly if one had covid a few months ago and STILL can't really taste much of anything. By the cruelty of the rules as written, the food pantry isn't allowed to give it away if it is past the best by date, and they can't sell it either because they aren't licensed to sell food at that place. Donated food either hasta be given away or discarded, and this was slightly past its peak, so every can of that marvelous stuff, 72 cans. went into the dumpster. I told the lady who runs the place: Meh, rules schmools, just look over that way, I'll grab the box, life is good. But she wouldn't have it. She offered younger cans of tuna, but I wouldn't have it, because then a person who can't afford it wouldn't get whatever I took. So. no albacore for the old Spikester. Sheesh. BillK, is Britain any more sane than this place? Any homes for sale in your neighborhood? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 13 01:14:31 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:14:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c201d8f6fd$490df580$db29e080$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] News Flash! From: spike at rainier66.com > >>. In reality I was spending the day collecting donated food and hauling it to the local charity, in accordance with the exhortation of Second Hezekiah chapter 97 verse 82: "Verily I say unto thee, feed the hungry, clothe the naked." >.But she wouldn't have it. She offered younger cans of tuna, but I wouldn't have it, because then a person who can't afford it wouldn't get whatever I took. So. no albacore for the old spikester. Just to add to my disappointment: the whole time we were down there, not one single nekkid person came in, not one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 01:51:11 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 01:51:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 at 01:00, wrote: > Something interesting happened today. We went out soliciting food donations last weekend, then this weekend we took the scouts out to collect the donations. The drill is to haul it back to the local food pantry and donated clothing closet, but then the big job begins. They end up getting a lotta stuff that is past the best by date, and aaaaallllll of that must be discarded. For reasons I don?t understand? the food pantry is not allowed to GIVE AWAY food which is past the best by date, which makes ZERO sense to me, ZERO. Even if it is BEST by some arbitrary date, it is still GOOD by some later date. > > There is a local grocery store which buys up deeply discounted lots, failed marketing experiments, oddball stuff, plenty of stuff that is past its best by date still on the shelves, because it is OK to SELL stuff past the best by date, but not OK to GIVE the damn stuff away. Oy vey. > > So? why do I get stirred over that, you may well ask. Because a bunch of those little cans of albacore (the 5 ounce cans (PERFECT on salty crackers for long days hiking up in the local hills (because fish punches so far above its weight in food value per gram (but is kinda pricy (but I buy it anyway (ja that stuff)))))) were donated today, a biiiig heavy box of them, which I cheerfully accepted realizing those 72 cans of albacore would cost 200 bucks. Come to find out? it was a few weeks beyond its best by date, not expiration, because probably everyone here knows you can eat canned foods for 3 to 5 years past that best by date and scarcely notice the difference, particularly if one had covid a few months ago and STILL can?t really taste much of anything. > > By the cruelty of the rules as written, the food pantry isn?t allowed to give it away if it is past the best by date, and they can?t sell it either because they aren?t licensed to sell food at that place. Donated food either hasta be given away or discarded, and this was slightly past its peak, so every can of that marvelous stuff, 72 cans? went into the dumpster. I told the lady who runs the place: Meh, rules schmools, just look over that way, I?ll grab the box, life is good. > > But she wouldn?t have it. She offered younger cans of tuna, but I wouldn?t have it, because then a person who can?t afford it wouldn?t get whatever I took. So? no albacore for the old Spikester. > > Sheesh. > BillK, is Britain any more sane than this place? Any homes for sale in your neighborhood? > > spike ----------------------------------- The UK Food Labelling law has two possible dates. Use By and Best Before. Use By date is put on perishable food, to avoid food poisoning. Best Before date means it won't taste as good after that date, but it won't make you ill. (probably). Best Before dates are no problem for charity food banks. But after Use By dates means food cannot be sold or given to charity shops. BillK From gadersd at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 03:39:56 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 22:39:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <4BD51479-30E7-4C0F-B2AD-1890452CFB0D@gmail.com> This pains me as someone who tries his best to NEVER waste food. Dumpster diving is legal everywhere in the U.S. Couldn?t you have done a bit a dumpster diving when no one was looking, or is that too radical? > On Nov 12, 2022, at 8:00 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > > > >? In reality I was spending the day collecting donated food and hauling it to the local charity, in accordance with the exhortation of Second Hezekiah chapter 97 verse 82: ?Verily I say unto thee, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, do so in that order if she is hot.?? > > > Something interesting happened today. We went out soliciting food donations last weekend, then this weekend we took the scouts out to collect the donations. The drill is to haul it back to the local food pantry and donated clothing closet, but then the big job begins. They end up getting a lotta stuff that is past the best by date, and aaaaallllll of that must be discarded. For reasons I don?t understand? the food pantry is not allowed to GIVE AWAY food which is past the best by date, which makes ZERO sense to me, ZERO. Even if it is BEST by some arbitrary date, it is still GOOD by some later date. > > There is a local grocery store which buys up deeply discounted lots, failed marketing experiments, oddball stuff, plenty of stuff that is past its best by date still on the shelves, because it is OK to SELL stuff past the best by date, but not OK to GIVE the damn stuff away. Oy vey. > > So? why do I get stirred over that, you may well ask. Because a bunch of those little cans of albacore (the 5 ounce cans (PERFECT on salty crackers for long days hiking up in the local hills (because fish punches so far above its weight in food value per gram (but is kinda pricy (but I buy it anyway (ja that stuff)))))) were donated today, a biiiig heavy box of them, which I cheerfully accepted realizing those 72 cans of albacore would cost 200 bucks. Come to find out? it was a few weeks beyond its best by date, not expiration, because probably everyone here knows you can eat canned foods for 3 to 5 years past that best by date and scarcely notice the difference, particularly if one had covid a few months ago and STILL can?t really taste much of anything. > > By the cruelty of the rules as written, the food pantry isn?t allowed to give it away if it is past the best by date, and they can?t sell it either because they aren?t licensed to sell food at that place. Donated food either hasta be given away or discarded, and this was slightly past its peak, so every can of that marvelous stuff, 72 cans? went into the dumpster. I told the lady who runs the place: Meh, rules schmools, just look over that way, I?ll grab the box, life is good. > > But she wouldn?t have it. She offered younger cans of tuna, but I wouldn?t have it, because then a person who can?t afford it wouldn?t get whatever I took. So? no albacore for the old Spikester. > > Sheesh. > > BillK, is Britain any more sane than this place? Any homes for sale in your neighborhood? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 13 06:21:51 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 22:21:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <4BD51479-30E7-4C0F-B2AD-1890452CFB0D@gmail.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <4BD51479-30E7-4C0F-B2AD-1890452CFB0D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001601d8f728$384a1000$a8de3000$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] News Flash! >?This pains me as someone who tries his best to NEVER waste food. Dumpster diving is legal everywhere in the U.S. Couldn?t you have done a bit a dumpster diving when no one was looking, or is that too radical? It isn?t too radical for me, Gadersd. I will spare you the distasteful details and just say I have personally done dumpster diving. It has been a long time ago. In this particular case today, the options were few, for the scouts were present and I am one of their leaders. There is a better solution: I could have gone to Walmart, bought a 72 case of the albacore, brought it back and asked if I could trade it straight across with the aged cans. Two wins and two break-evens: the poor get nice fresh tuna, I break even if I don?t worry about best by date, Walmart makes a nice sale, the food donors break even, for they still have their charity go to a good cause of feeding the poor (even if there are no longer any naked people to clothe (which causes one to speculate that perhaps life was more fun in some ways back in the olden days (speaking of which, I heard the ancient Romans used to celebrate the end of a pandemic with wild parties and orgies and dancing and nekkidness and things (so? does anyone know of anything being planned?)))) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Nov 13 13:45:19 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 08:45:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'm not in California, but we have the same issue here. Maybe it is a Food Bank policy? I've been told it is a "personal pride" or "esteem" thing - that a person going to a Food Bank should not be forced to accept "out of date" stuff, but receive best quality stuff. We also have a grocery like you describe. Dented banged up out of date stuff for pennies. Works for me as they often carry stuff my local regular grocery does not stock. ... I'm with Gadersd, "food waste" :( ... and I have a family member who discards anything even a day past the "best by" date - even butter or sugar! She will not change. Sometimes I'm the lucky recipient because my son knows I'll eat it. Regards, MB From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 13 14:36:07 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 06:36:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003701d8f76d$44e20a30$cea61e90$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] News Flash! >...I'm not in California, but we have the same issue here. Maybe it is a Food Bank policy? I've been told it is a "personal pride" or "esteem" thing - that a person going to a Food Bank should not be forced to accept "out of date" stuff, but receive best quality stuff. We also have a grocery like you describe. Dented banged up out of date stuff for pennies. Works for me as they often carry stuff my local regular grocery does not stock. ... I'm with Gadersd, "food waste" :( ... and I have a family member who discards anything even a day past the "best by" date - even butter or sugar! She will not change. Sometimes I'm the lucky recipient because my son knows I'll eat it. Regards, MB _______________________________________________ MB, I can't get it outta my mind. (Well, I can't get that clothe the naked business out of my mind either (but hey, you know me (the mental pictures the whole absurd notion creates are so entertaining (imagine an old lady with a bag of peanuts feeding a flock of pigeons in the park, then substitute an old man with cans of tuna and a bag of clothing, then for the pigeons substitute a flock of... (disregard, the mind boggles.)))) Even if the slightly out of date albacore may not be given to the hungry (regardless of attire) what about their pets? Cats loooove albacore even more than I do. They go crazy for the stuff. Dogs like it too. Our pet food standards are pressing towards matching in every way human standards, as you will notice already in the grocery store more and more pet food labeled human grade. Note that human grade pet food isn't cheaper than ordinary human food, it is more expensive. I am told this decreases the incentive for people to buy and devour human grade pet food. Then I ask what would be wrong with that? It is easy enough to extrapolate into the future that pet food standards will match human food standards, which means the factories can be used to produce either product with similar cleanliness regulations, inspection requirements and so forth. So give our companion beasts the outdated canned goods rather than discard them, ja? Then just don't worry about the cat's revolting habit of bringing home dead birds and leaving them on your doorstep, because the wretched beasts will still do that regardless of how well-fed they are, for cats are inherently evil. They take pride in that. It's a known character flaw in cats. spike From atymes at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 15:47:19 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 07:47:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <003701d8f76d$44e20a30$cea61e90$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <003701d8f76d$44e20a30$cea61e90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2022, 6:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Then just don't worry about the cat's > revolting habit of bringing home dead birds and leaving them on your > doorstep, because the wretched beasts will still do that regardless of how > well-fed they are, for cats are inherently evil. They take pride in that. > It's a known character flaw in cats. > Those birds passed their Live By dates. Just ask the cats. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Nov 13 15:49:03 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:49:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <003701d8f76d$44e20a30$cea61e90$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <003701d8f76d$44e20a30$cea61e90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <6e029f2a-4d47-4466-8924-c87ba07a8270@main.nc.us> spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Our pet > food standards are pressing towards matching in every way human standards, > as you will notice already in the grocery store more and more pet food > labeled human grade. Note that human grade pet food isn't cheaper than > ordinary human food, it is more expensive. I am told this decreases the > incentive for people to buy and devour human grade pet food. Then I ask > what would be wrong with that? > Alas, I guess Human Grade pet food is why I have been unable to find and buy cheap stinky fishy catfood to lure the possum (who took up residence under my house) into a trap. Sad. I think we (as a culture) have lost our reasoning power. Regards, MB From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Nov 13 15:52:31 2022 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:52:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <003701d8f76d$44e20a30$cea61e90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0da5edc1-fc67-88fd-922d-321048dfa5a6@main.nc.us> Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > Those birds passed their Live By dates. Just ask the cats. Thank you, Adrian! :D My cousin's teeth seem to have passed their "use by" dates - enough have broken off - disintegrated - that she's had to get all plastic. Regards, MB From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 16:20:04 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 16:20:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <6e029f2a-4d47-4466-8924-c87ba07a8270@main.nc.us> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <003701d8f76d$44e20a30$cea61e90$@rainier66.com> <6e029f2a-4d47-4466-8924-c87ba07a8270@main.nc.us> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 at 15:56, MB via extropy-chat wrote: > > Alas, I guess Human Grade pet food is why I have been unable to find and > buy cheap stinky fishy catfood to lure the possum (who took up residence > under my house) into a trap. Sad. > > Regards, > MB > _______________________________________________ Possums will eat almost anything (and produce lots of little possums!) :) Try tinned sardines (cheap) and some apple pieces. A few tiny pieces leading a trail into the trap also helps. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 13 16:26:04 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 08:26:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <0da5edc1-fc67-88fd-922d-321048dfa5a6@main.nc.us> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <003701d8f76d$44e20a30$cea61e90$@rainier66.com> <0da5edc1-fc67-88fd-922d-321048dfa5a6@main.nc.us> Message-ID: <005a01d8f77c$a091ba60$e1b52f20$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] News Flash! Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > >> ...Those birds passed their Live By dates. Just ask the cats... {8^D heeeeeeeheheheheheheeeee... That's the spirit. May we never forget to have fun. >...My cousin's teeth seem to have passed their "use by" dates - enough have broken off - disintegrated - that she's had to get all plastic. Regards, MB _______________________________________________ MB, do pass along to your cousin our best wishes along with the following thought: November contains a day which celebrates gratitude, a transforming emotion. Your cousin and all of us here were born late enough in history to have the option of getting artificial teeth, in a time where the technology was sufficiently advanced such that the artificial ones look great, in a lotta ways better than the originals. On that note I have a fun gratitude story. About nine years ago, I heard one of my third cousins had developed a form of leukemia which could be treated with a bone marrow donation after radiation blasts out of existence a prole's diseased tissue. They claim the transplanted marrow can carry the load but it requires the patient devour immunosuppressant medications to prevent rejection of the transplanted tissue, which then leads to other problems, which is still preferrable to the alternative, which is being dead. We found as many third cousins and closer relatives as we could, under the theory that a bio-relative has a higher probability of being a tissue type match. I signed up, wasn't a match, but a suitable match was found. My software DNA project was a result of that. My third cousin survived for another 8 years. Last night I was at a scout event and met up with an acquaintance from several years ago, who is about age 50. He had developed a type of leukemia similar to my cousin's, but the medics had driven it into remission using some kind of new technology where they treat (somehow) the patient's own tissue and replace it. He was a big guy, about 6 ft 2 inch, 230 lb, but had lost down to about 150 four years ago. Now he was back above 200 and looked good. People who get that radiation business don't look great usually. Apparently that radiation treatment does some permanent damage. I am not an expert in these matters (another thing for which I am grateful) but perhaps some medical hipster among us knows. We have so much for which to be grateful. As time goes on, we continue to accumulate medical knowledge, allowing more and more of us to survive medical conditions which would have slain the hapless prole as recently as my own cheerfully misspent young adulthood. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 13 18:57:05 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:57:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] WOWsers Message-ID: <007001d8f791$b955dbc0$2c019340$@rainier66.com> Remember when this deep fake tech was just showing up only about 5 years ago. Check out how far it has come since then. Skip over Hound Dog if you don't have three minutes: (31) Simon, Sofia, And Heidi Perform With Elvis on America's Got Talent! | AGT Finals 2022 - YouTube spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:29:18 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 21:29:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] WOWsers In-Reply-To: <007001d8f791$b955dbc0$2c019340$@rainier66.com> References: <007001d8f791$b955dbc0$2c019340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Given this level of technology why can't I get a lifelike virtual video avatar that mimics my actual speech and expressions in real time? I can get cartoon ones but I haven't seen more lifelike ones on offer. ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 11:57 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Remember when this deep fake tech was just showing up only about 5 years ago. Check out how far it has come since then. Skip over Hound Dog if you don?t have three minutes: > > [(31) Simon, Sofia, And Heidi Perform With Elvis on America's Got Talent! | AGT Finals 2022 - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsaPAXzoTUI) > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 13 22:06:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 14:06:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] WOWsers In-Reply-To: References: <007001d8f791$b955dbc0$2c019340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009101d8f7ac$3b496150$b1dc23f0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of sjatkins via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] WOWsers >?Given this level of technology why can't I get a lifelike virtual video avatar that mimics my actual speech and expressions in real time? I can get cartoon ones but I haven't seen more lifelike ones on offer? Samantha Much to my surprise, audio mimicking is way more difficult than visuals. In the Elvis video, they used The King?s visuals with an impersonator?s voice, which was easy enough to tell. This guy is good but a voice like Elvis? comes along only once in a generation. We could do tricks like get the software to present a younger version of ourselves while doing the voice ourselves. That might be cool. spike ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 11:57 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Remember when this deep fake tech was just showing up only about 5 years ago. Check out how far it has come since then. Skip over Hound Dog if you don?t have three minutes: (31) Simon, Sofia, And Heidi Perform With Elvis on America's Got Talent! | AGT Finals 2022 - YouTube spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 03:41:24 2022 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 14:41:24 +1100 Subject: [ExI] WOWsers In-Reply-To: References: <007001d8f791$b955dbc0$2c019340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 at 08:34, sjatkins via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Given this level of technology why can't I get a lifelike virtual video > avatar that mimics my actual speech and expressions in real time? I can > get cartoon ones but I haven't seen more lifelike ones on offer. > So, check out these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj8qofm4n4o virtual avatars used to provide video conferencing with massively reduced bandwidth AI voice mimicking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k54cpsAbMn4 Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 08:38:29 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 09:38:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Turing Church newsletter. Preparing for the Artemis 1 launch service. Message-ID: Turing Church newsletter. Preparing for the Artemis 1 launch service. Also, a tribute to Robert Forward and Arthur Clarke. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/preparing-for-the-artemis-1-launch From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 19:45:36 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:45:36 -0600 Subject: [ExI] health expenditure by country and lifespan Message-ID: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/healthcare-spending-versus-life-expectancy-by-country/ As can be seen, several countries - all first world - are ahead of us in average lifespan but spend half or even less per capita than we do. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 03:16:05 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 19:16:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do Message-ID: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> We have a lot of digital currency followers here, so perhaps some kindhearted hipster can offer me an explanation simple enough a rocket scientist can understand (one who never owned a bitcoin or was convinced the notion of digital currency could work.) I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don't understand it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by someone, possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main selling point of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by blockchain, which is said to be inherently secure. So. this looter, what did she steal? Digital currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of paper currency, and if so, why did FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel with the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a million bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest American bill, the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said to be missing and that just doesn't sound like something that would be easily carted away. It would be a heeellll of a job just loading the truck. But if it is digital currency which was stolen, how can they suppose the looter somehow got away with 400 megabucks? This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 03:34:02 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 19:34:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: A lot of FTX's assets and value were in its own token, FTT, much like normal banks back their assets with cash, gold, or the like. So, when the value of FTT suddenly plunged (because someone who had a lot of FTT suddenly no longer trusted FTX, and sold their FTT to wash their hands of their investment in FTX), FTX suddenly didn't have the assets to conduct its normal business with, much like a bank run. The inability of a major currency exchange to convert cryptocoins to USD meant those cryptocoins were significantly less able to be converted to USD - which caused their value in USD to drop substantially. Much like any bank run, a massive hit to public confidence in a major financial institution caused impacts to the value of the main currencies that institution dealt in. On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > We have a lot of digital currency followers here, so perhaps some > kindhearted hipster can offer me an explanation simple enough a rocket > scientist can understand (one who never owned a bitcoin or was convinced > the notion of digital currency could work.) > > > > I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don?t understand > it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by someone, > possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main selling point > of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by blockchain, which is said to > be inherently secure. So? this looter, what did she steal? Digital > currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of paper currency, and if so, why > did FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? > > > > But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel with > the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy > heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a million > bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest American bill, > the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said to be missing and > that just doesn?t sound like something that would be easily carted away. > It would be a heeellll of a job just loading the truck. But if it is > digital currency which was stolen, how can they suppose the looter somehow > got away with 400 megabucks? > > > > This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. > > > > Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 03:54:36 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 22:54:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike is referring to the subsequent 'hack' and draining of their remaining funds. Short version: was 99% chance an inside job. Attacker had access to the private keys of their digital currency reserves (like having your safe deposit box key) and used them to transfer all FTX's assets to his/her own wallet. Nothing confusing here. Some guy on the inside used the password to steal everything. On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 10:35 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A lot of FTX's assets and value were in its own token, FTT, much like > normal banks back their assets with cash, gold, or the like. So, when the > value of FTT suddenly plunged (because someone who had a lot of FTT > suddenly no longer trusted FTX, and sold their FTT to wash their hands of > their investment in FTX), FTX suddenly didn't have the assets to conduct > its normal business with, much like a bank run. The inability of a major > currency exchange to convert cryptocoins to USD meant those cryptocoins > were significantly less able to be converted to USD - which caused their > value in USD to drop substantially. > > Much like any bank run, a massive hit to public confidence in a major > financial institution caused impacts to the value of the main currencies > that institution dealt in. > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> We have a lot of digital currency followers here, so perhaps some >> kindhearted hipster can offer me an explanation simple enough a rocket >> scientist can understand (one who never owned a bitcoin or was convinced >> the notion of digital currency could work.) >> >> >> >> I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don?t understand >> it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by someone, >> possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main selling point >> of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by blockchain, which is said to >> be inherently secure. So? this looter, what did she steal? Digital >> currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of paper currency, and if so, why >> did FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? >> >> >> >> But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel with >> the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy >> heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a million >> bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest American bill, >> the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said to be missing and >> that just doesn?t sound like something that would be easily carted away. >> It would be a heeellll of a job just loading the truck. But if it is >> digital currency which was stolen, how can they suppose the looter somehow >> got away with 400 megabucks? >> >> >> >> This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. >> >> >> >> Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 13:55:25 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 05:55:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> ???> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do A lot of FTX's assets and value were in its own token, FTT, much like normal banks back their assets with cash, gold, or the like. So, when the value of FTT suddenly plunged (because someone who had a lot of FTT suddenly no longer trusted FTX, and sold their FTT to wash their hands of their investment in FTX), FTX suddenly didn't have the assets to conduct its normal business with, much like a bank run. The inability of a major currency exchange to convert cryptocoins to USD meant those cryptocoins were significantly less able to be converted to USD - which caused their value in USD to drop substantially. Much like any bank run, a massive hit to public confidence in a major financial institution caused impacts to the value of the main currencies that institution dealt in. OK cool thx, so the service FTX was providing is converting digital currency into fiat currency and back? Well that makes sense, for I often wondered about that step: that conversion looks like the most dangerous one. Adrian your comment confirms it and makes perfect sense: something vaguely analogous to a bank would do business the way a bank does: keeps a small amount of cash to pay out withdrawals but not enough for all the depositors to withdraw at once, betting they won?t do that. So? a major competitor could buy up a bunch of FTX, then dump it, causing the modern equivalent of a bank run, analogous to what the evil Simon Bar Sinister (disguised as the evil Mr. Potter) did to George Bailey in Wonderful Life. Then Potter can buy his broken competitor for pennies on the dollar, as he tried to do, but Bedford Falls rejected the bad guy. OK then, that all makes sense. So now I am back to where I was 20 years ago: recognizing that digital currency is cool, but it is still vaguely unclear (and possibly risky) to convert it back and forth into universally-recognized currency. This part rings true: governments which print fiat money (which is all of them) will fight back somehow against upstarts challenging and competing with their money factory. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 14:05:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 06:05:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a501d8f8fb$593f4cb0$0bbde610$@rainier66.com> >? On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do >?Spike is referring to the subsequent 'hack' and draining of their remaining funds. >?Short version: was 99% chance an inside job. Attacker had access to the private keys of their digital currency reserves (like having your safe deposit box key) and used them to transfer all FTX's assets to his/her own wallet. Nothing confusing here. Some guy on the inside used the password to steal everything? Will Ja, so this makes it sound like we are back where we were 20 years ago, in a sub-group generated here on ExI. Adrian I don?t recall, were you part of that? The notion of digital currency with blockchain security sounded cool, but I never bought into (damn) for two reasons: 1. the value of the stuff depends on control of the quantity (BitCoin does that, but there is no way to stop a dozen companies from starting their own competing digital currencies, dragging down the value of all of it) 2. there is a weak link in the chain if we need to swap digital currency to fiat money and back, which looks to me like a demonstration of that weakness just happened with FTX. Will, you were an early BitCoin guy ja? Did you not worry about these two factors? I was friends with Hal Finney back then, and he explained to me that each digital coin takes more calculation to mine, analogous to the Mersenne prime project, so that would keep the price moving up. But those two reasons above stopped me from investing (damn), both of which appear to still be valid, and hand the whole money-printing business back to governments who do have the option of printing it in arbitrary quantities. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:33:32 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 02:33:32 +1100 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 at 00:57, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *???*> *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do > > > > A lot of FTX's assets and value were in its own token, FTT, much like > normal banks back their assets with cash, gold, or the like. So, when the > value of FTT suddenly plunged (because someone who had a lot of FTT > suddenly no longer trusted FTX, and sold their FTT to wash their hands of > their investment in FTX), FTX suddenly didn't have the assets to conduct > its normal business with, much like a bank run. The inability of a major > currency exchange to convert cryptocoins to USD meant those cryptocoins > were significantly less able to be converted to USD - which caused their > value in USD to drop substantially. > > > > Much like any bank run, a massive hit to public confidence in a major > financial institution caused impacts to the value of the main currencies > that institution dealt in. > > > > > > > > OK cool thx, so the service FTX was providing is converting digital > currency into fiat currency and back? > They weren?t just doing that. They were using depositors? funds for risky activities, such as lending to or investing in other parties or to subsidiaries. As a result their liabilities are now greater than their assets, and depositors will not get their money back. If it had just been a liquidity problem another business, such as Binance, would have taken over. > Well that makes sense, for I often wondered about that step: that > conversion looks like the most dangerous one. Adrian your comment confirms > it and makes perfect sense: something vaguely analogous to a bank would do > business the way a bank does: keeps a small amount of cash to pay out > withdrawals but not enough for all the depositors to withdraw at once, > betting they won?t do that. > > > > So? a major competitor could buy up a bunch of FTX, then dump it, causing > the modern equivalent of a bank run, analogous to what the evil Simon Bar > Sinister (disguised as the evil Mr. Potter) did to George Bailey in > Wonderful Life. Then Potter can buy his broken competitor for pennies on > the dollar, as he tried to do, but Bedford Falls rejected the bad guy. > > > > OK then, that all makes sense. So now I am back to where I was 20 years > ago: recognizing that digital currency is cool, but it is still vaguely > unclear (and possibly risky) to convert it back and forth into > universally-recognized currency. > > > > This part rings true: governments which print fiat money (which is all of > them) will fight back somehow against upstarts challenging and competing > with their money factory. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 16:02:53 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 08:02:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003c01d8f90b$b8b5d370$2a217a50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 at 00:57, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? OK cool thx, so the service FTX was providing is converting digital currency into fiat currency and back? >?They weren?t just doing that. They were using depositors? funds for risky activities, such as lending to or investing in other parties or to subsidiaries. As a result their liabilities are now greater than their assets, and depositors will not get their money back. If it had just been a liquidity problem another business, such as Binance, would have taken over?-- Stathis Papaioannou Ja, cool thx Stathis. This and the others are explanations a rocket scientist can understand. This FTX was doing (in principle) the same thing banks do: they buy risk at a discount by downplaying it. A bank has the perpetual risk of a run, but the risk is low, so the investors equate low risk with zero risk. Lehman Brothers and several other companies made high-risk real estate loans, mixed them with very low risk real estate loans, then sold the package as low risk mortgage-backed bonds. Over time, the small amount of toxins added to the stew increased until the entire pot was toxic. In 2008 the whole thing came down. In the rocket science business we deal with risk models all the time, accumulated risk, risk where a long chain of events must work in series so the very high probability of success of each step (.995 is typical) is multiplied by fifteen other events of similar probability, so that the result of .995^15 is about 93% probability of success. In the moneychanger business, there is always risk that is low but weird things happen. Sometimes a charismatic religious leader shows up and starts overturning the tables for instance. Doesn?t happen often, but the risk is non-zero. I must watch for confirmation bias, for I am one who firmly believes that one should never rely on the honesty of the management in making investments. If the possibility to loot the bank is in any way enabled, sooner or later, a looter will show up, clean out the vault and head to her private island in the Bahamas. Had I known the stuff I just learned in the past day, I wouldn?t go anywhere near FTX. This all reinforces my reluctance to buy BitCoin, even though (I think) a good guy and friend (Hal Finney) helped start it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 16:08:24 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:08:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 at 15:36, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > They weren?t just doing that. They were using depositors? funds for risky activities, such as lending to or investing in other parties or to subsidiaries. As a result their liabilities are now greater than their assets, and depositors will not get their money back. If it had just been a liquidity problem another business, such as Binance, would have taken over. > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ They are now saying that FTX was a years-long billion dollar fraud scheme and a federal investigation has started. Quote: FTX Fraud: Who Are Sam Bankman-Fried's Biggest Victims? by Timothy Craig FTX?s collapse has significantly damaged both the crypto and broader financial ecosystems. ------------------------------- BillK From tara at taramayastales.com Tue Nov 15 17:17:24 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 09:17:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7B916768-0C61-4D91-9411-DDE1433C1435@taramayastales.com> I worked at a Homeless Shelter for a while, and we had the same problem all the time. As a worker there, *I* was allowed to take home the "toss away" food. I just ate that instead of shopping. It was more than enough to keep me alive for a year. I never once died of food poisoning. Or had any problem with the food. Even I didn't try to eat the ten year old cans of cranberry, however. We must have had a million of those. Tara Maya > On Nov 12, 2022, at 5:00 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > > > >? In reality I was spending the day collecting donated food and hauling it to the local charity, in accordance with the exhortation of Second Hezekiah chapter 97 verse 82: ?Verily I say unto thee, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, do so in that order if she is hot.?? > > > Something interesting happened today. We went out soliciting food donations last weekend, then this weekend we took the scouts out to collect the donations. The drill is to haul it back to the local food pantry and donated clothing closet, but then the big job begins. They end up getting a lotta stuff that is past the best by date, and aaaaallllll of that must be discarded. For reasons I don?t understand? the food pantry is not allowed to GIVE AWAY food which is past the best by date, which makes ZERO sense to me, ZERO. Even if it is BEST by some arbitrary date, it is still GOOD by some later date. > > There is a local grocery store which buys up deeply discounted lots, failed marketing experiments, oddball stuff, plenty of stuff that is past its best by date still on the shelves, because it is OK to SELL stuff past the best by date, but not OK to GIVE the damn stuff away. Oy vey. > > So? why do I get stirred over that, you may well ask. Because a bunch of those little cans of albacore (the 5 ounce cans (PERFECT on salty crackers for long days hiking up in the local hills (because fish punches so far above its weight in food value per gram (but is kinda pricy (but I buy it anyway (ja that stuff)))))) were donated today, a biiiig heavy box of them, which I cheerfully accepted realizing those 72 cans of albacore would cost 200 bucks. Come to find out? it was a few weeks beyond its best by date, not expiration, because probably everyone here knows you can eat canned foods for 3 to 5 years past that best by date and scarcely notice the difference, particularly if one had covid a few months ago and STILL can?t really taste much of anything. > > By the cruelty of the rules as written, the food pantry isn?t allowed to give it away if it is past the best by date, and they can?t sell it either because they aren?t licensed to sell food at that place. Donated food either hasta be given away or discarded, and this was slightly past its peak, so every can of that marvelous stuff, 72 cans? went into the dumpster. I told the lady who runs the place: Meh, rules schmools, just look over that way, I?ll grab the box, life is good. > > But she wouldn?t have it. She offered younger cans of tuna, but I wouldn?t have it, because then a person who can?t afford it wouldn?t get whatever I took. So? no albacore for the old Spikester. > > Sheesh. > > BillK, is Britain any more sane than this place? Any homes for sale in your neighborhood? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 17:59:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 09:59:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <7B916768-0C61-4D91-9411-DDE1433C1435@taramayastales.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <7B916768-0C61-4D91-9411-DDE1433C1435@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <007601d8f91c$02d03670$0870a350$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Tara Maya via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] News Flash! >?I worked at a Homeless Shelter for a while, and we had the same problem all the time. >?As a worker there, *I* was allowed to take home the "toss away" food. I just ate that instead of shopping. It was more than enough to keep me alive for a year. I never once died of food poisoning. Or had any problem with the food. >?Even I didn't try to eat the ten year old cans of cranberry, however. We must have had a million of those. >?Tara Maya Tara a long time ago (in our galaxy but still a long time ago) I walked past a grocery store dumpster and saw them discarding dented and past sell-by cans. They would rip the labels off so there was no knowing what it was. I thought that a terrible waste of unidentified food, so I jumped in there and liberated a few of these discards. There was nothing at all wrong with the food. I returned the next day, ready to repeat but the two guys who lived there politely informed me that this is their dumpster and their homeless. So anyone jumping in there is committing the equivalent of breaking into their homeless. But they, feeling the need, would sell me cans, 10 cents for the standard #2s, 25 cents for the quart cans, so I bought plenty of their cans, reassuring myself that was helping them too, for they felt the need. The neeeeed for weeeeed? So those two fellers were back there all summer (this was at U of Washington in Seattle.) I devoured perhaps half my calories from mystery cans. Hey, I stayed alive, never starved to death the whole time, and neither did the two mystery can merchants out back. In retrospect that might have been the healthiest diet in my life, for it was a wide variety of food. Can?t say I enjoyed living that way, but hey, grinding poverty is comfortable and sexy, said no one ever. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 18:54:22 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 18:54:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <007601d8f91c$02d03670$0870a350$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <7B916768-0C61-4D91-9411-DDE1433C1435@taramayastales.com> <007601d8f91c$02d03670$0870a350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 at 18:02, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Tara a long time ago (in our galaxy but still a long time ago) I walked past a grocery store dumpster and saw them discarding dented and past sell-by cans. They would rip the labels off so there was no knowing what it was. I thought that a terrible waste of unidentified food, so I jumped in there and liberated a few of these discards. There was nothing at all wrong with the food. > > I returned the next day, ready to repeat but the two guys who lived there politely informed me that this is their dumpster and their homeless. So anyone jumping in there is committing the equivalent of breaking into their homeless. But they, feeling the need, would sell me cans, 10 cents for the standard #2s, 25 cents for the quart cans, so I bought plenty of their cans, reassuring myself that was helping them too, for they felt the need. The neeeeed for weeeeed? > > So those two fellers were back there all summer (this was at U of Washington in Seattle.) I devoured perhaps half my calories from mystery cans. Hey, I stayed alive, never starved to death the whole time, and neither did the two mystery can merchants out back. In retrospect that might have been the healthiest diet in my life, for it was a wide variety of food. Can?t say I enjoyed living that way, but hey, grinding poverty is comfortable and sexy, said no one ever. > > spike > _______________________________________________ You call that poor! You had a dumpster! We were so poor we had to eat what we found at the side of the road! :) Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen sketch. (3 minutes). BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 19:01:51 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 11:01:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000d01d8f924$b90dae10$2b290a30$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, 15 November, 2022 8:08 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 at 15:36, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > They weren?t just doing that. They were using depositors? funds for risky activities... > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ >...They are now saying that FTX was a years-long billion dollar fraud scheme and a federal investigation has started. ... >...FTX?s collapse has significantly damaged both the crypto and broader financial ecosystems... BillK Adrian, Stathis, BillK, anyone else who answered, thanks for these explanations. So as I understand it, FTX is a company which (perhaps among other services) changes money from fiat currency to digital currency and back? That makes sense that such a service must exist if digital currency exists, for (as far as I know) the local merchants will not accept BitCoin. Do I have that about right? The parallel coexistence of digital currency and fiat currency establishes the need for companies that allow swapping them? Then these companies introduce inherent risk of fraud? If so, are we not back where we were 20 years ago when that weak link was identified on an ExI sub-group? spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 19:14:13 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 11:14:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <7B916768-0C61-4D91-9411-DDE1433C1435@taramayastales.com> <007601d8f91c$02d03670$0870a350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000f01d8f926$73acfd60$5b06f820$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >... they felt the need. The neeeeed for weeeeed? > > ... grinding poverty is comfortable and sexy, said no one ever. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...You call that poor! You had a dumpster! We were so poor we had to eat what we found at the side of the road! :) Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen sketch. (3 minutes). BillK _______________________________________________ Luxury! You 'ad a road? We used to dreeeeam of eating what we found at the side of a road. In those days, we college nerds knew every word of the brilliant Four Yorkshire Gentlemen routine, British accents and all. We soon learned to never complain about anything around any of the computer nerds, knowing someone would exclaim with a pretty good Yorkshire accent: LUXURY! Coming up with any lame variation on the Four Gentlemen was the best we could do for the humor impaired. BillK, British comedy in those days was head and shoulders above anything being done in the states. spike From tara at taramayastales.com Tue Nov 15 19:23:03 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 11:23:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] News Flash! In-Reply-To: <007601d8f91c$02d03670$0870a350$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d8f6e3$fecb8730$fc629590$@rainier66.com> <00b201d8f6fb$5ffdea90$1ff9bfb0$@rainier66.com> <7B916768-0C61-4D91-9411-DDE1433C1435@taramayastales.com> <007601d8f91c$02d03670$0870a350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That's very enterprising of the Dumpster Middlemen. :) We have some dumpster divers in my new neighborhood, but they aren't necessarily homeless. One of the guys who regularly picks out cans and other recycle from everyone's trash actually owns an entire apartment building. Weekly, he just happens to scrounge for recycle. Given his age (???) and country of origin, I would say that either he or his parents have lived through a Communist famine, so he's taking no chances. Once, I dared to give away a bag full of cans to that man, and was chided by my own mother in law for wasting the money we could have earned from that--worth an entire lunch! She's from the same country.... The lesson runs deep. Tara Maya > On Nov 15, 2022, at 9:59 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Tara a long time ago (in our galaxy but still a long time ago) I walked past a grocery store dumpster and saw them discarding dented and past sell-by cans. They would rip the labels off so there was no knowing what it was. I thought that a terrible waste of unidentified food, so I jumped in there and liberated a few of these discards. There was nothing at all wrong with the food. > > I returned the next day, ready to repeat but the two guys who lived there politely informed me that this is their dumpster and their homeless. So anyone jumping in there is committing the equivalent of breaking into their homeless. But they, feeling the need, would sell me cans, 10 cents for the standard #2s, 25 cents for the quart cans -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 19:28:33 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 11:28:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <000d01d8f924$b90dae10$2b290a30$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <000d01d8f924$b90dae10$2b290a30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001701d8f928$73baf530$5b30df90$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...So as I understand it, FTX is a company which (perhaps among other services) changes money from fiat currency to digital currency and back? ...spike BillK et al, this thread has important implications for USians and another interesting twist for Californians such as Adrian and me. The current US government is operating under the apparent understanding that debt just doesn't matter. People will say almost in these terms: the US government cannot go broke or fail to honor its debts for two reasons: it never has, and it owns a printing press. It can create money out of paper. OK, so... why do we still need to pay taxes? Why does anyone need to work for money if we can just vote for people who will pay us in fiat currency? That logical contradiction appears to be an inherent flaw in the theory that the US government cannot go broke. In the US system, the House of Representatives is in charge of controlling the debt. However the house has repeatedly shown itself unable to control that debt, as any attempt to do so is punished by the voters. Now there is a bill being debated which would take the power to control the debt (through the debt ceiling) completely out of the hands of congress. Then, if congress cannot control the debt, it is not responsible for it. Then, there is no incentive to control spending. The incentive is to spend as fast as possible, for under that theory, congress gets power without accountability. spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 21:15:47 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 13:15:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <001701d8f928$73baf530$5b30df90$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <000d01d8f924$b90dae10$2b290a30$@rainier66.com> <001701d8f928$73baf530$5b30df90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003301d8f937$6ee44200$4cacc600$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...BillK et al, this thread has important implications for USians and another interesting twist for Californians such as Adrian and me. >...Now there is a bill being debated which would take the power to control the debt (through the debt ceiling) completely out of the hands of congress. Then, if congress cannot control the debt, it is not responsible for it. Then, there is no incentive to control spending. The incentive is to spend as fast as possible, for under that theory, congress gets power without accountability. spike BillK, here's the interesting California twist. California is home to about 1/8 of USians and (according to some estimates) as much as a quarter of US wealth. So what happens in California matters. The US can continue to calculate phony inflation numbers by carefully choosing which products to consider for any particular year's inflation calculation. Currently it does not consider food and fuel, which makes a huge difference in some years, such as this one when those items went up steeply. But we can continue to play the game carefully and continue to produce inflation numbers far below the number needed to estimate the cost of living. If the US continues to do this, it inflates away its growing debt while giving seniors cost of living adjustments which really do not cover the increased cost. The state of California relies primarily on four taxes: income, property, sales and fuel. It is said that California is a terrible place to retire because taxes are so high, but... it depends. If one is retired, income tax isn't as high, and a person on that end of life has fewer major acquisitions. We don't have a regular commute to work, so fuel taxes are not as big a deal as they once were. Under those conditions, one soon sees that the biggest tax is property, but here's the twist: that is limited by the state constitution at 1% of the initial sales price plus 2% maximum forever and ever amen, so long as one owns that property. OK so... under those conditions, and if one has one's assets in something that is inflation resistant such as stocks, the inflation isn't such a bad deal. Reason: regardless of how high it goes, the biggest tax can only go up 2% a year, forever. The assessed value of my house has increase more than a factor of 5 in the 28 years I have owned it, but the tax bill has not yet doubled (that takes about 35 years to double.) Sales tax doesn't apply to food. Property tax is (in a sense) going down. If one paid attention during one's career and bought Roth IRAs, then income tax isn't such a burden, and gas taxes, well, I don't drive nearly as much as I once did, so... given all that... California is a good place to retire. It has high taxes, but they mostly apply to others. So... given all that, California is much more attractive. However... there is yet another twist to this story, given that other retirees are doing the same math the same way I did and coming to a similar conclusion: retirees decide this is a good place to stay and run out the clock here. Result: the state government doesn't have enough money. spike From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 21:36:03 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 08:36:03 +1100 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <000d01d8f924$b90dae10$2b290a30$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <000d01d8f924$b90dae10$2b290a30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 at 06:03, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > Sent: Tuesday, 15 November, 2022 8:08 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: BillK > Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do > > On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 at 15:36, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > They weren?t just doing that. They were using depositors? funds for > risky activities... > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > _______________________________________________ > > > >...They are now saying that FTX was a years-long billion dollar fraud > scheme and a federal investigation has started. > < > https://cryptobriefing.com/ftx-fraud-who-are-sam-bankman-frieds-biggest-victims/ > > > ... > > >...FTX?s collapse has significantly damaged both the crypto and broader > financial ecosystems... BillK > > > > > Adrian, Stathis, BillK, anyone else who answered, thanks for these > explanations. > > So as I understand it, FTX is a company which (perhaps among other > services) changes money from fiat currency to digital currency and back? > That makes sense that such a service must exist if digital currency exists, > for (as far as I know) the local merchants will not accept BitCoin. Do I > have that about right? The parallel coexistence of digital currency and > fiat currency establishes the need for companies that allow swapping them? > Then these companies introduce inherent risk of fraud? If so, are we not > back where we were 20 years ago when that weak link was identified on an > ExI sub-group? Many crypto enthusiasts say that you should only self-custody your coins, the equivalent of hiding them under your bed, leaving them on exchanges only for the time it takes to buy them, which might be minutes. But then you have the risk of losing your self-custodied coins: you lose your keys, you get robbed, your friend defrauds you, and so on. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 22:08:18 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 14:08:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <000d01d8f924$b90dae10$2b290a30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007201d8f93e$c53541c0$4f9fc540$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ? >>?So as I understand it?The parallel coexistence of digital currency and fiat currency establishes the need for companies that allow swapping them? Then these companies introduce inherent risk of fraud? If so, are we not back where we were 20 years ago when that weak link was identified on an ExI sub-group? spike >?Many crypto enthusiasts say that you should only self-custody your coins, the equivalent of hiding them under your bed, leaving them on exchanges only for the time it takes to buy them, which might be minutes. But then you have the risk of losing your self-custodied coins: you lose your keys, you get robbed, your friend defrauds you, and so on. -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, the reason I introduced that business about California tax structure is to demonstrate why we will always have fiat currency with us, even if digital currency is used for most transactions (which I suspect it will eventually.) The California state government decided on a property tax structure in the 1970s, then encoded that into the state constitution, along with all the traditional safeguards which makes any change to any state constitution inherently difficult. When Governor? can?t recall the name? let?s call him Mr. Linda Ronstadt, pushed for the property tax structure, the two mainstream parties where opposite to what they are now. Governor Ronstadt?s party was limited government, the other one was big government. But, over time, those two changed positions. At the time, a few in Governor Ronstadt?s party warned that if all this in encoded in the state constitution, it will become difficult or impossible to change. Governor Ronstadt agreed and added still more difficulties to any attempt to undo his signature legislation. Gov. Ronstadt was out of office for nearly 30 years, then was returned to that office. By that time, his party clamored for overturning Prop 13, but the governor warned that it would be difficult or impossible to get that level of support for a measure that increases taxes on most of the voters and all of the ones who give money to the party. So? eventually they dropped it. Many sales pitches for digital currency carried the warning that the value of fiat currency in the US would drop dramatically, since the US government would be printing the stuff in arbitrary quantities. But Californians knew that fiat US dollars would always pay the tax bill, regardless of what alternatives exist. The California tax bill can only demand US dollars, in a known amount. So if US dollars inflate to dimes, my property tax bill just dropped to a tenth, and that property tax bill is one of my biggest expenses. Conclusion: US fiat dollars will retain some value for the foreseeable. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 23:03:01 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 23:03:01 +0000 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <007201d8f93e$c53541c0$4f9fc540$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <000d01d8f924$b90dae10$2b290a30$@rainier66.com> <007201d8f93e$c53541c0$4f9fc540$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 at 22:11, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Many sales pitches for digital currency carried the warning that the value of fiat currency in the US would drop dramatically, since the US government would be printing the stuff in arbitrary quantities. But Californians knew that fiat US dollars would always pay the tax bill, regardless of what alternatives exist. The California tax bill can only demand US dollars, in a known amount. So if US dollars inflate to dimes, my property tax bill just dropped to a tenth, and that property tax bill is one of my biggest expenses. > > Conclusion: US fiat dollars will retain some value for the foreseeable. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Stein's Law - Look it up. Quote: Herbert Stein was chair of the Council of Economic Advisors under Presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford and is the father of the more well known Ben Stein. In 1976, he propounded what he called ?Stein?s Law?: if something cannot go on forever, it will stop. Stein was referring to economic trends. Stein?s Law at first glance might seem like a banal platitude. But we should be fully cognizant of its implications: an unsustainable system must have an end. ------------------------ Another way of saying that reality always wins in the end, regardless of human agreements or beliefs. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 23:15:20 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:15:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <000d01d8f924$b90dae10$2b290a30$@rainier66.com> <007201d8f93e$c53541c0$4f9fc540$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001601d8f948$228c6f20$67a54d60$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ... > _______________________________________________ Stein's Law - Look it up. ... ------------------------ Another way of saying that reality always wins in the end, regardless of human agreements or beliefs. BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks for that BillK. Runaway spending will end but it will not end well. (spike's corollary to Stein's law) spike From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 23:32:05 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:32:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 5:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > so the service FTX was providing is converting digital currency into fiat > currency and back? > Yep. It was one of the largest services doing so, thus the impact of it going down. > Ja, so this makes it sound like we are back where we were 20 years ago, in a sub-group generated here on ExI. Adrian I don?t recall, were you part of that? That was 20 years ago. I forget. On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 7:35 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > They weren?t just doing that. They were using depositors? funds for risky > activities, such as lending to or investing in other parties or to > subsidiaries. As a result their liabilities are now greater than their > assets, and depositors will not get their money back. > In other words, they were acting just like a bank: see the causes of certain bailouts this side of 2000. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 15 23:49:17 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:49:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 7:35 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > wrote: They weren?t just doing that. They were using depositors? funds for risky activities, such as lending to or investing in other parties or to subsidiaries. As a result their liabilities are now greater than their assets, and depositors will not get their money back. >?In other words, they were acting just like a bank: see the causes of certain bailouts this side of 2000. Adrian Governments have a new toolkit for fighting competitors. They could do government bailouts for companies that do risky stuff with investor?s fiat dollars but refuse bailouts for companies doing the same scheme using cryptocurrency. This is important stuff. We are at a time when plenty of us here foresee that China will take over Taiwan, giving China a monopoly on the world?s most advanced computer chips. If China manages to pull that off while the US is weak and divided against itself, then it can export the less advanced chips and keep the more advanced ones for itself. China generates power at a lower cost than anyone, since it makes all those solar panels which it subsequently exports while generating its own power using coal (still the cheapest way to generate power.) These two factors will hand China the ability to mint the world?s money, while the USA is farting around in a useless attempt at fighting against cryptocurrency. Adrian is there a flaw in this reasoning somewhere? Please find one, for I don?t like where this all leads. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 00:05:46 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:05:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 3:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This is important stuff. We are at a time when plenty of us here foresee > that China will take over Taiwan, giving China a monopoly on the world?s > most advanced computer chips. If China manages to pull that off while the > US is weak and divided against itself, then it can export the less advanced > chips and keep the more advanced ones for itself. China generates power at > a lower cost than anyone, since it makes all those solar panels which it > subsequently exports while generating its own power using coal (still the > cheapest way to generate power.) These two factors will hand China the > ability to mint the world?s money, while the USA is farting around in a > useless attempt at fighting against cryptocurrency. > > > > Adrian is there a flaw in this reasoning somewhere? Please find one, for > I don?t like where this all leads. > If China starts refusing to export certain stuff, then the rest of the world gets it from elsewhere. China's "monopoly" only exists so long as it is cheaper to get it from China; a refusal to export breaks that condition. As to coal being cheapest, that has not been the case for a while - at least, not for new plants (which China needs to worry about given its growing demand): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity#/media/File:20201019_Levelized_Cost_of_Energy_(LCOE,_Lazard)_-_renewable_energy.svg https://energyinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Levelized-cost-components.png https://www.freeingenergy.com/the-market-has-spoken-clean-energy-just-became-the-cheapest-source-of-electricity/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 16 00:22:32 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:22:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006801d8f951$854e0660$8fea1320$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?As to coal being cheapest, that has not been the case for a while - at least, not for new plants (which China needs to worry about given its growing demand): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity#/media/File:20201019_Levelized_Cost_of_Energy_(LCOE,_Lazard)_-_renewable_energy.svg https://energyinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Levelized-cost-components.png https://www.freeingenergy.com/the-market-has-spoken-clean-energy-just-became-the-cheapest-source-of-electricity/ Adrian what isn?t clear in any of these charts is if they mean the cost of generation in the USA or everywhere. China can generate coal-fired power more cheaply than the USA because we have a lot of environmental regulations they don?t have. They can burn really low-quality coal and are generally not required to deal with mitigating acid rain and other bad stuff that belches out of the stacks. Another thing that isn?t clear is how they take into account the intermittent nature of the renewables. A power company can use a few percent renewable energy so long as they have plenty of capacity to generate peak power without any wind or sun. We still don?t have the energy storage capacity to compare these sources on level ground. In the scenario I can?t get out of my mind, China doesn?t need to go to war against the USA, but rather would just buy the place. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 00:27:36 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:27:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <006801d8f951$854e0660$8fea1320$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> <006801d8f951$854e0660$8fea1320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 4:24 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In the scenario I can?t get out of my mind, China doesn?t need to go to > war against the USA, but rather would just buy the place. > Consider China's efforts to develop space-based solar power, while using Russia to meddle with US government efforts to so much as take the notion seriously. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 04:16:33 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 20:16:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hell-just-happened-crypto-q-005458676.html is an explainer of the FTX takedown if you want, Spike. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 16 04:18:38 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 20:18:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 3:50 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? mint the world?s money, while the USA is farting around in a useless attempt at fighting against cryptocurrency. >>?Adrian is there a flaw in this reasoning somewhere? Please find one, for I don?t like where this all leads. >?If China starts refusing to export certain stuff, then the rest of the world gets it from elsewhere. China's "monopoly" only exists so long as it is cheaper to get it from China; a refusal to export breaks that condition? Adrian OK cool thx. Do allow me to take this a step further and invite comment by our crypto-hipsters. We get gold from refining ore. The whole finding nuggets with a pan is so two centuries ago. Now, we refine ore, which is not rare or a bit hard to find. We have all the gold ore we want and need. The value of gold today is primarily determined by the cost of the energy to extract and refine the stuff from ore. Carry that notion over to crypto-currency. If my intuition is anywhere near right (no guarantee on that (or even vague reassurance (I am way outside of my expertise))) then we can have cryptocurrencies competing with BitCoin, we can have as many competitors as we want, however? the value of competing cryptocurrencies will all be a function of the scarcity, which will be a function of the computing power and energy resources needed to mine it, analogous to gold in a sense. Adrian does that sound about right? And if so, we could then claim that a dollar?s worth of power has a mathematical expectation of mining about a dollar?s worth of cryptocurrency, regardless of which company is issuing the coins or what mining scheme being used. It must require energy to get the coins. I cannot just show up to the party with some new crypto-currency, call them ByteBux, and expect to sell them, if they can be obtained without investing something else of value, such as energy and computing resources. Ja? Adrian? Others? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 04:30:25 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 20:30:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > we can have cryptocurrencies competing with BitCoin, we can have as many > competitors as we want > There are a lot of competitors. > the value of competing cryptocurrencies will all be a function of the > scarcity > Not entirely. Like fiat currencies, the faith people place in any given currency plays a large role in determining its value. (Which breaks the rest of your logic chain, unfortunately.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 16 04:49:58 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 20:49:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002801d8f976$e18708d0$a4951a70$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? the value of competing cryptocurrencies will all be a function of the scarcity Not entirely. Like fiat currencies, the faith people place in any given currency plays a large role in determining its value. (Which breaks the rest of your logic chain, unfortunately.) Ja, damn. Then we have people who are good at creating a reality-distortion field around themselves who will come up with BitCoin competitors and sell them above the ?real? value. Aside on this last note: people who are good at creating the reality distortion field created one that convinced a lot of cash-holders that their currency would become worthless in the easily foreseeable because cryptocurrency was supply-limited by design, where fiat currency is supply limited by the arbitrary decision of the issuing government to not just print it in arbitrary quantities. The same line of reasoning that occurred to me also did to those who fell for that fiat-currency-will-become-worthless line. They realized the US congress has lost the ability to control the debt, which means they are no longer responsible for it. They can?t be held responsible for something they could not control. So with congress out of the way, the US government has no impediment to just printing as much of the stuff as they need or want, with no one seriously incentivized to even try to balance the budget. Apparently congress as collectively given up on even trying to balance it. So? there was no one even talking about the budget deficit in this latest US election. So? no one in Washington is responsible, no one is motivated to slow the runaway spending, everyone is incentivized to spend it as fast as they can. Result: that system is heading over the cliff. We don?t know when, but we do know what. Many went down that line of reasoning and bought cryptocurrency under the belief that US fiat currency must become nearly worthless. But Adrian, you and I know, being California residents, that US fiat dollars will always be useful for something: paying California property tax. So I would argue those greenbacks cannot become completely worthless because they can be used to pay a particular debt. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 05:04:40 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 21:04:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <002801d8f976$e18708d0$a4951a70$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> <002801d8f976$e18708d0$a4951a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Then we have people who are good at creating a reality-distortion field > around themselves who will come up with BitCoin competitors and sell them > above the ?real? value. > This is so thoroughly true, that it is the ability of its creators to generate that field that drives whether a given cryptocurrency becomes worth enough for more than a few to bother with. I once saw a spectacular flameout of field generation tank an otherwise-promising nascent cryptocurrency. (Which was too bad: the guy was promising to pay me in USD generated from the initial activities. Good thing I made it clear that, to perform the services he wanted, I would need USD.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 16 05:23:02 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 21:23:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> <002801d8f976$e18708d0$a4951a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d8f97b$8023c0b0$806b4210$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Then we have people who are good at creating a reality-distortion field around themselves who will come up with BitCoin competitors and sell them above the ?real? value. >?This is so thoroughly true?Good thing I made it clear that, to perform the services he wanted, I would need USD.) Adrian the thought entertains me: we Californians, once considered so hip and mod, are likely to be the stodgy old dollar-clutchers, all because of how our state?s constitution is constructed. They can?t easily change it, they can?t require a different currency for payment, property tax is set and perfectly predictable for the future, as inflation drives its real-value cost down even as the dollar-denominated price goes gradually up. Another entertaining aside, particularly for those of us who have owned a California home for a long time: the above tax-erosion feature makes California real estate an inherently inflation-resistant value-holder asset. The already-absurd prices of these homes would rise ever higher because of the inflation-driven property-tax erosion feature. I have never owned or wanted a BitCoin or any other digital currency, however once the dust from this FTX crash settles, I might look into it. Anyone have thoughts or guidance for a cryptocurrency tyro? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 10:34:46 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 10:34:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <002501d8f97b$8023c0b0$806b4210$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> <002801d8f976$e18708d0$a4951a70$@rainier66.com> <002501d8f97b$8023c0b0$806b4210$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 at 05:25, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Adrian the thought entertains me: we Californians, once considered so hip and mod, are likely to be the stodgy old dollar-clutchers, all because of how our state?s constitution is constructed. They can?t easily change it, they can?t require a different currency for payment, property tax is set and perfectly predictable for the future, as inflation drives its real-value cost down even as the dollar-denominated price goes gradually up. > > Another entertaining aside, particularly for those of us who have owned a California home for a long time: the above tax-erosion feature makes California real estate an inherently inflation-resistant value-holder asset. The already-absurd prices of these homes would rise ever higher because of the inflation-driven property-tax erosion feature. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Stein's Law still applies. If California property tax can only be paid in rapidly devaluing dollars then California will have no 'real' income to run the state. When faced with a situation that cannot continue, then it won't. Something will change. The Constitution will be changed or the state will cease to exist. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 16 13:41:38 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 05:41:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> <002801d8f976$e18708d0$a4951a70$@rainier66.com> <002501d8f97b$8023c0b0$806b4210$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007901d8f9c1$2763dcd0$762b9670$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, 16 November, 2022 2:35 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 at 05:25, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Adrian the thought entertains me: we Californians, once considered so hip and mod, are likely to be the stodgy old dollar-clutchers, all because of how our state?s constitution is constructed. They can?t easily change it, they can?t require a different currency for payment, property tax is set and perfectly predictable for the future, as inflation drives its real-value cost down even as the dollar-denominated price goes gradually up. > > Another entertaining aside, particularly for those of us who have owned a California home for a long time: the above tax-erosion feature makes California real estate an inherently inflation-resistant value-holder asset. The already-absurd prices of these homes would rise ever higher because of the inflation-driven property-tax erosion feature. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Stein's Law still applies. If California property tax can only be paid in rapidly devaluing dollars then California will have no 'real' income to run the state. When faced with a situation that cannot continue, then it won't. Something will change. The Constitution will be changed or the state will cease to exist. BillK _______________________________________________ On the contrary BillK. Reasoning: the California government still has revenue from three other main tax sources (sales, income and fuel) and would still have plenty of revenue from property tax, but that property tax burden would be disproportionately carried by newcomers to the state and those who move from one home to another. In a fun twist, Prop 13 was originally designed to do exactly that: give a tax advantage to those who buy and stay in a house for many years. Very common is the case where a Californian would like to move to another place in California and buy a similar home but cannot afford to reset their property tax. We often hear (and I have said) can't move, prop thirteened. I have been prop thirteened in place for many years. I would like to move west in the valley, over toward Adrian's higher-end side, but can't swap straight across because of the tax bill. But that too has its advantages, for people who are prop thirteened are more likely to stay and improve their homes and neighborhoods rather than move to nicer ones. We see plenty of that right now as Tesla has created a lot of wealth in the area, which is plowed into home improvements rather than moving to nicer neighborhoods. The gentrification is dramatic, and we don't even get accused of displacing minorities: it is mostly the same people here as before, just much more prosperous, assuming they bought into Tesla. I didn't. Damn. But my neighbors did, and they are fat cats now. Conclusion: this can continue and will. spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 16 15:58:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 07:58:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> <002801d8f976$e18708d0$a4951a70$@rainier66.com> <002501d8f97b$8023c0b0$806b4210$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000801d8f9d4$5295c680$f7c15380$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, 16 November, 2022 2:35 AM > > Another entertaining aside, particularly for those of us who have owned a California home for a long time: the above tax-erosion feature makes California real estate an inherently inflation-resistant value-holder asset. The already-absurd prices of these homes would rise ever higher because of the inflation-driven property-tax erosion feature. > > spike > _______________________________________________ BillK, I can think of one other purpose American dollars would still have, preventing them from ever becoming the equivalent of Confederate currency: the retirement pension that my own company owes me is payable in American dollars, with no cost of living adjustment. Social Security beneficiaries have COLA adjustments, which will likely lead to comically fictious inflation numbers intended to keep Social Security COLAs well below actual increasing living cost, extending the life of the Social Security program (even if not extending the life of the Social Security recipient.) I identified this phenomenon decades ago in what I call a soft default: in theory the government continues to pay its obligations, but in perfectly transparent reality it is only paying a fraction. My company on the other hand... doesn't adjust for inflation, never said it would. Fortunately, it is a company of mostly engineers with many of us trained in the days when our inflation tables listed interest rates up to 15 percent. So we put together spreadsheets when we were in our 20s and anticipated this problem: the company pension was mostly an illusion. We knew, we took timely action, too bad for those who failed to do so. They took engineering economics, they knew what to do and how to do it. They were taught to play the game of life as chess rather than ping pong. spike From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 20:08:38 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 12:08:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <000801d8f9d4$5295c680$f7c15380$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> <008f01d8f8f9$eaebd9a0$c0c38ce0$@rainier66.com> <002c01d8f94c$e164cce0$a42e66a0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d8f972$816864c0$84392e40$@rainier66.com> <002801d8f976$e18708d0$a4951a70$@rainier66.com> <002501d8f97b$8023c0b0$806b4210$@rainier66.com> <000801d8f9d4$5295c680$f7c15380$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The Onion now has an explainer too, which I believe that at least Spike will enjoy: https://www.theonion.com/what-to-know-about-the-collapse-of-ftx-1849786911 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 20:19:26 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 12:19:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Almost every single problem with crypto is that we fail in upholding crypto promise: decentralization. I lost 32 BTC because they were sitting in an exchange (while I was trading it) where the owner fled away with the funds (the exchange was called Mintpal, one of the largest at that time). Unfortunately when you deposit crypto in an exchange you lose control of it in a sense because the wallet is owned by the exchange and not you. It is a pretty stupid thing to do in particular when it happened to me that was early on when exchanges were even less secure than now. We need decentralized exchanges. There are few but they are not very liquid. We need to find solutions to this. Giovanni On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > We have a lot of digital currency followers here, so perhaps some > kindhearted hipster can offer me an explanation simple enough a rocket > scientist can understand (one who never owned a bitcoin or was convinced > the notion of digital currency could work.) > > > > I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don?t understand > it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by someone, > possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main selling point > of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by blockchain, which is said to > be inherently secure. So? this looter, what did she steal? Digital > currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of paper currency, and if so, why > did FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? > > > > But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel with > the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy > heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a million > bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest American bill, > the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said to be missing and > that just doesn?t sound like something that would be easily carted away. > It would be a heeellll of a job just loading the truck. But if it is > digital currency which was stolen, how can they suppose the looter somehow > got away with 400 megabucks? > > > > This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. > > > > Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 21:45:16 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 13:45:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, All this has zero to do with BTC. To answer your doubts: 1. the value of the stuff depends on control of the quantity (BitCoin does that, but there is no way to stop a dozen companies from starting their own competing digital currencies, dragging down the value of all of it) Right, this why it was genius to have a finite number of BTC, this makes it more like gold than cash. I have models for BTC long time growth (it follows a power law in time) that have been very reliable for the past 10 years (I started these projections in 2012). There are 100s of competing currencies but nothing comes close to the value of BTC. This is both because BTC brand value but also because of the established network effect that is almost impossible to beat. So this problem of competing cryptocurrencies is not a problem at all because in the last 11 years nothing was able to beat BTC in terms of dominance in the market. Besides the cryptomarket works more like an ecosystem where other cryptos (in particular the stongest ones) give value to each other instead of competing with each other. 2. there is a weak link in the chain if we need to swap digital currency to fiat money and back, which looks to me like a demonstration of that weakness just happened with FTX. It is not much the idea of converting to FIAT currencies that is the most risky point of failure but the fact most of the points of exchanges are centralized instead of decentralized. In theory people could exchange crypto in person and pay cash for it but this is considered in most places illegal (there is a service called LocalBitcoin that is considered illegal in the US). Attempts to create decentralized exchanges were done and there are few places online where it happens but these exchanges are not very liquid. The long term solution to all this would be the full adoption of BTC as a currency to buy almost anything you can imagine. In that case one could completely bypass the conversion ot FIAT. On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 12:19 PM Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > Almost every single problem with crypto is that we fail in upholding > crypto promise: decentralization. I lost 32 BTC because they were sitting > in an exchange (while I was trading it) where the owner fled away with the > funds (the exchange was called Mintpal, one of the largest at that time). > Unfortunately when you deposit crypto in an exchange you lose control of it > in a sense because the wallet is owned by the exchange and not you. It is a > pretty stupid thing to do in particular when it happened to me that was > early on when exchanges were even less secure than now. We need > decentralized exchanges. There are few but they are not very liquid. We > need to find solutions to this. > Giovanni > > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> We have a lot of digital currency followers here, so perhaps some >> kindhearted hipster can offer me an explanation simple enough a rocket >> scientist can understand (one who never owned a bitcoin or was convinced >> the notion of digital currency could work.) >> >> >> >> I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don?t understand >> it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by someone, >> possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main selling point >> of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by blockchain, which is said to >> be inherently secure. So? this looter, what did she steal? Digital >> currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of paper currency, and if so, why >> did FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? >> >> >> >> But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel with >> the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy >> heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a million >> bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest American bill, >> the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said to be missing and >> that just doesn?t sound like something that would be easily carted away. >> It would be a heeellll of a job just loading the truck. But if it is >> digital currency which was stolen, how can they suppose the looter somehow >> got away with 400 megabucks? >> >> >> >> This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. >> >> >> >> Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 21:46:37 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 13:46:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: By the way my model predict a BTC value of 1 M by 2030. Keep this as evidence of my prediction so we can be back to in in 8 years from now. Giovanni On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 1:45 PM Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > Spike, > All this has zero to do with BTC. > To answer your doubts: > > > 1. the value of the stuff depends on control of the quantity (BitCoin > does that, but there is no way to stop a dozen companies from starting > their own competing digital currencies, dragging down the value of all of > it) > Right, this why it was genius to have a finite number of BTC, this > makes it more like gold than cash. > I have models for BTC long time growth (it follows a power law in > time) that have been very reliable for the past 10 years (I started these > projections in 2012). There are 100s of competing currencies but > nothing comes close to the value of BTC. This is both because BTC brand > value but also because of the established network effect that is almost > impossible to beat. So this problem of competing cryptocurrencies is not a > problem at all because in the last 11 years nothing was able to beat BTC in > terms of dominance in the market. Besides the cryptomarket works more like > an ecosystem where other cryptos (in particular the stongest ones) give > value to each other instead of competing with each other. > 2. there is a weak link in the chain if we need to swap digital > currency to fiat money and back, which looks to me like a demonstration of > that weakness just happened with FTX. > It is not much the idea of converting to FIAT currencies that is the > most risky point of failure but the fact most of the points of exchanges > are centralized instead of decentralized. > In theory people could exchange crypto in person and pay cash for it > but this is considered in most places illegal (there is a service called > LocalBitcoin that is considered illegal in the US). Attempts to create > decentralized exchanges were done and there are few places online where it > happens but these exchanges are not very liquid. > The long term solution to all this would be the full adoption of BTC > as a currency to buy almost anything you can imagine. In that case one > could completely bypass the conversion ot FIAT. > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 12:19 PM Giovanni Santostasi < > gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Almost every single problem with crypto is that we fail in upholding >> crypto promise: decentralization. I lost 32 BTC because they were sitting >> in an exchange (while I was trading it) where the owner fled away with the >> funds (the exchange was called Mintpal, one of the largest at that time). >> Unfortunately when you deposit crypto in an exchange you lose control of it >> in a sense because the wallet is owned by the exchange and not you. It is a >> pretty stupid thing to do in particular when it happened to me that was >> early on when exchanges were even less secure than now. We need >> decentralized exchanges. There are few but they are not very liquid. We >> need to find solutions to this. >> Giovanni >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> We have a lot of digital currency followers here, so perhaps some >>> kindhearted hipster can offer me an explanation simple enough a rocket >>> scientist can understand (one who never owned a bitcoin or was convinced >>> the notion of digital currency could work.) >>> >>> >>> >>> I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don?t >>> understand it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by >>> someone, possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main >>> selling point of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by blockchain, >>> which is said to be inherently secure. So? this looter, what did she >>> steal? Digital currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of paper currency, >>> and if so, why did FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? >>> >>> >>> >>> But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel >>> with the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy >>> heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a million >>> bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest American bill, >>> the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said to be missing and >>> that just doesn?t sound like something that would be easily carted away. >>> It would be a heeellll of a job just loading the truck. But if it is >>> digital currency which was stolen, how can they suppose the looter somehow >>> got away with 400 megabucks? >>> >>> >>> >>> This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. >>> >>> >>> >>> Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 21:50:44 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 13:50:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <002701d8f8a0$999c9020$ccd5b060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Here is my post few years back on Reddit. The model is still valid. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9cqi0k/bitcoin_power_law_over_10_year_period_all_the_way/ On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 1:46 PM Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > By the way my model predict a BTC value of 1 M by 2030. Keep this as > evidence of my prediction so we can be back to in in 8 years from now. > Giovanni > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 1:45 PM Giovanni Santostasi > wrote: > >> Spike, >> All this has zero to do with BTC. >> To answer your doubts: >> >> >> 1. the value of the stuff depends on control of the quantity (BitCoin >> does that, but there is no way to stop a dozen companies from starting >> their own competing digital currencies, dragging down the value of all of >> it) >> Right, this why it was genius to have a finite number of BTC, this >> makes it more like gold than cash. >> I have models for BTC long time growth (it follows a power law in >> time) that have been very reliable for the past 10 years (I started these >> projections in 2012). There are 100s of competing currencies but >> nothing comes close to the value of BTC. This is both because BTC brand >> value but also because of the established network effect that is almost >> impossible to beat. So this problem of competing cryptocurrencies is not a >> problem at all because in the last 11 years nothing was able to beat BTC in >> terms of dominance in the market. Besides the cryptomarket works more like >> an ecosystem where other cryptos (in particular the stongest ones) give >> value to each other instead of competing with each other. >> 2. there is a weak link in the chain if we need to swap digital >> currency to fiat money and back, which looks to me like a demonstration of >> that weakness just happened with FTX. >> It is not much the idea of converting to FIAT currencies that is the >> most risky point of failure but the fact most of the points of exchanges >> are centralized instead of decentralized. >> In theory people could exchange crypto in person and pay cash for it >> but this is considered in most places illegal (there is a service called >> LocalBitcoin that is considered illegal in the US). Attempts to create >> decentralized exchanges were done and there are few places online where it >> happens but these exchanges are not very liquid. >> The long term solution to all this would be the full adoption of BTC >> as a currency to buy almost anything you can imagine. In that case one >> could completely bypass the conversion ot FIAT. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 12:19 PM Giovanni Santostasi < >> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Almost every single problem with crypto is that we fail in upholding >>> crypto promise: decentralization. I lost 32 BTC because they were sitting >>> in an exchange (while I was trading it) where the owner fled away with the >>> funds (the exchange was called Mintpal, one of the largest at that time). >>> Unfortunately when you deposit crypto in an exchange you lose control of it >>> in a sense because the wallet is owned by the exchange and not you. It is a >>> pretty stupid thing to do in particular when it happened to me that was >>> early on when exchanges were even less secure than now. We need >>> decentralized exchanges. There are few but they are not very liquid. We >>> need to find solutions to this. >>> Giovanni >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have a lot of digital currency followers here, so perhaps some >>>> kindhearted hipster can offer me an explanation simple enough a rocket >>>> scientist can understand (one who never owned a bitcoin or was convinced >>>> the notion of digital currency could work.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don?t >>>> understand it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by >>>> someone, possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main >>>> selling point of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by blockchain, >>>> which is said to be inherently secure. So? this looter, what did she >>>> steal? Digital currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of paper currency, >>>> and if so, why did FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel >>>> with the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy >>>> heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a million >>>> bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest American bill, >>>> the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said to be missing and >>>> that just doesn?t sound like something that would be easily carted away. >>>> It would be a heeellll of a job just loading the truck. But if it is >>>> digital currency which was stolen, how can they suppose the looter somehow >>>> got away with 400 megabucks? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> spike >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 22:27:39 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 14:27:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] power law model of BTC Message-ID: The recent events of FTX have almost nothing to do with BTC. I heard about BTC in 2010 for the first time in this list. I bought my first BTC in 2012 because of this list. I believe a list member created or was a main force behind BTC creation. I have written about mathematical models of BTC that predict a steady growth of BTC (with oscillations around the general trend) that will eventually bring the value of BTC to 1M. Here an early post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9cqi0k/bitcoin_power_law_over_10_year_period_all_the_way/ Here is a live chart based on my model. https://buybitcoinworldwide.com/stats/long-term-power-law/ The power law is evident in a log-log plot (it shows as a straight line in a log-log chart). I have studied many other assets and only gold and silver follow long term power laws in time. The temporary bubbles and downtrends are not what is important but the general trend that is very predictable. Giovanni -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 23:16:17 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:16:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] power law model of BTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A8DA157-C9A8-4849-B8AA-6234EE19A37C@gmail.com> Relying on price trends to inform one?s investing decisions can be very dangerous. Investing on the basis of a price trend is generally not wise and one should be especially wary given the inherent risk that cryptocurrency entails. > On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:27 PM, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat wrote: > > The recent events of FTX have almost nothing to do with BTC. > I heard about BTC in 2010 for the first time in this list. I bought my first BTC in 2012 because of this list. > I believe a list member created or was a main force behind BTC creation. > I have written about mathematical models of BTC that predict a steady growth of BTC (with oscillations around the general trend) that will eventually bring the value of BTC to 1M. Here an early post: > https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9cqi0k/bitcoin_power_law_over_10_year_period_all_the_way/ > Here is a live chart based on my model. > > https://buybitcoinworldwide.com/stats/long-term-power-law/ > > The power law is evident in a log-log plot (it shows as a straight line in a log-log chart). I have studied many other assets and only gold and silver follow long term power laws in time. > The temporary bubbles and downtrends are not what is important but the general trend that is very predictable. > Giovanni > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gordon.swobe at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 00:59:57 2022 From: gordon.swobe at gmail.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 17:59:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] power law model of BTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Giovanni. Fancy meeting you here. On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 3:30 PM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I heard about BTC in 2010 for the first time in this list. I bought my > first BTC in 2012 because of this list. > Likewise. I believe a list member created or was a main force behind BTC creation. > Hal Finney was on this list in those days, as I recall. > I have written about mathematical models of BTC that predict a steady > growth of BTC (with oscillations around the general trend) that will > eventually bring the value of BTC to 1M. Here an early post: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9cqi0k/bitcoin_power_law_over_10_year_period_all_the_way/ > Here is a live chart based on my model. > > https://buybitcoinworldwide.com/stats/long-term-power-law/ > > The power law is evident in a log-log plot (it shows as a straight line in > a log-log chart). I have studied many other assets and only gold and silver > follow long term power laws in time. > The temporary bubbles and downtrends are not what is important but the > general trend that is very predictable. > Giovanni > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 01:22:24 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 17:22:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] power law model of BTC In-Reply-To: <9A8DA157-C9A8-4849-B8AA-6234EE19A37C@gmail.com> References: <9A8DA157-C9A8-4849-B8AA-6234EE19A37C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not in this case. It is basically a unique pattern that is almost non existent over this extent of time in any other financial asset. I made my first predictions of the general trend in early 2013 and it has been very spot on for all these years. There is not a guarantee that BTC will continue to this pattern but it is a pretty solid bet. On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 3:18 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Relying on price trends to inform one?s investing decisions can be very > dangerous. Investing on the basis of a price trend is generally not wise > and one should be especially wary given the inherent risk that > cryptocurrency entails. > > On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:27 PM, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The recent events of FTX have almost nothing to do with BTC. > I heard about BTC in 2010 for the first time in this list. I bought my > first BTC in 2012 because of this list. > I believe a list member created or was a main force behind BTC creation. > I have written about mathematical models of BTC that predict a steady > growth of BTC (with oscillations around the general trend) that will > eventually bring the value of BTC to 1M. Here an early post: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9cqi0k/bitcoin_power_law_over_10_year_period_all_the_way/ > Here is a live chart based on my model. > > https://buybitcoinworldwide.com/stats/long-term-power-law/ > > The power law is evident in a log-log plot (it shows as a straight line in > a log-log chart). I have studied many other assets and only gold and silver > follow long term power laws in time. > The temporary bubbles and downtrends are not what is important but the > general trend that is very predictable. > Giovanni > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 01:50:30 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 20:50:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] power law model of BTC In-Reply-To: References: <9A8DA157-C9A8-4849-B8AA-6234EE19A37C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Past performance doesn?t necessarily imply future performance. You may be confident, but that doesn?t mean that relying on this trend isn?t risky. Bitcoin COULD implode and some people COULD lose all or most of the money they invest into it. > On Nov 16, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat wrote: > > Not in this case. It is basically a unique pattern that is almost non existent over this extent of time in any other financial asset. > I made my first predictions of the general trend in early 2013 and it has been very spot on for all these years. > There is not a guarantee that BTC will continue to this pattern but it is a pretty solid bet. > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 3:18 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: > Relying on price trends to inform one?s investing decisions can be very dangerous. Investing on the basis of a price trend is generally not wise and one should be especially wary given the inherent risk that cryptocurrency entails. > >> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:27 PM, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> The recent events of FTX have almost nothing to do with BTC. >> I heard about BTC in 2010 for the first time in this list. I bought my first BTC in 2012 because of this list. >> I believe a list member created or was a main force behind BTC creation. >> I have written about mathematical models of BTC that predict a steady growth of BTC (with oscillations around the general trend) that will eventually bring the value of BTC to 1M. Here an early post: >> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9cqi0k/bitcoin_power_law_over_10_year_period_all_the_way/ >> Here is a live chart based on my model. >> >> https://buybitcoinworldwide.com/stats/long-term-power-law/ >> >> The power law is evident in a log-log plot (it shows as a straight line in a log-log chart). I have studied many other assets and only gold and silver follow long term power laws in time. >> The temporary bubbles and downtrends are not what is important but the general trend that is very predictable. >> Giovanni >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 17 02:24:47 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:24:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] power law model of BTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016c01d8fa2b$c4150800$4c3f1800$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, 16 November, 2022 5:00 PM I believe a list member created or was a main force behind BTC creation. >?Hal Finney was on this list in those days, as I recall. He sure was Gordon. When Prime95 started and we were getting a new Mersenne prime every coupla years, Hal was intrigued by the notion I think I introduced him to: discovering a Mersenne prime, then selling the number to someone who wants to be a record holder in the math world for all time. We started a subgroup in the late 90s where he was the man who knew too much. If there is any such thing as knowing too much, Hal was the man. Such a pleasant gentleman too, he never let it go to his head. If I had half the brains Hal had, I would jump at every opportunity to act like a bigshot, and it wouldn?t even be an act. It would be just telling the truth: I would be an actual bigshot. Hal had twice that much brain, and just wasted, WASTED all those perfectly good opportunities to act like a bigshot. Hal wasted all that on kindness and humility! Harumph. I really miss that man. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rahmans at me.com Thu Nov 17 13:00:37 2022 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 14:00:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates Message-ID: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> Hey all, You know that missile that landed in Poland that everyone is now saying was a Ukrainian S300 SAM and definitely not a Russian S300 SAM missile? Coordinates for: Kiev (50.4505318, 30.5229899) Lviv (49.8395881, 24.0301160) Take the latitude of Kiev and the longitude of Livi and you get: Place1 (50.4505318, 24.0301160) Place1 is in Poland, and is VERY close to a little village called Pzrewodow where a mysterious missile killed 2 people. I?m betting on Russian incompetence in entering the coordinates. So, with so many examples of Russian incompetence on display, why am I highlighting this one? Because the American and Polish governments are not letting the Ukrainian government investigate. Optimistic scenario: NATO is deescalating the situation. Pessimistic scenario: NATO just blinked. I?m looking at it from the optimistic scenario point of view. Any thoughts? Regards, Omar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 17 14:17:40 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 06:17:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> Message-ID: <002901d8fa8f$5ae56500$10b02f00$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Omar Rahman via extropy-chat ? >?Place1 is in Poland, and is VERY close to a little village called Pzrewodow where a mysterious missile killed 2 people. >?I?m betting on Russian incompetence in entering the coordinates. So, with so many examples of Russian incompetence on display, why am I highlighting this one? ? Any thoughts? Regards, Omar Omar, what if? a missile battery commander switched the target coordinates, a missile went into a NATO country accidentally triggering World War 3, the POTUS couldn?t remember the code for the football, the USA ended up getting nuked beyond recognition before the American people even knew how to pronounce the name Lviv. Oh the writers of this sim are so imaginative. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 14:41:00 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 08:41:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] red meat Message-ID: https://bigthink.com/health/red-meat-cancer-not-health-risk/ Bad studies, poor statistics, no followup, no long term studies, no replications - maybe we need a national panel to decide if a study warrants any action on the part of the consumer. Poor research, like much of research elsewhere. I don't eat that much anyway, and my heart pills and statin probably make my risk near zero. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:33:35 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 15:33:35 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: <002901d8fa8f$5ae56500$10b02f00$@rainier66.com> References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> <002901d8fa8f$5ae56500$10b02f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Nov 2022 at 14:20, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Omar, what if? a missile battery commander switched the target coordinates, a missile went into a NATO country accidentally triggering World War 3, the POTUS couldn?t remember the code for the football, the USA ended up getting nuked beyond recognition before the American people even knew how to pronounce the name Lviv. > > Oh the writers of this sim are so imaginative. > > spike > _______________________________________________ It's a war, remember? Everybody is lying / producing propaganda. Using million dollar missiles to shoot down cheap drones is draining Ukrainian funds, so Uncle Joe better keep sending money and weapons. Or, if Ukraine 'accidentally' sent a missile into Poland and blamed Russia, maybe NATO or the US might send troops to help fight Russia and get World War III really started. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 17 16:43:47 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 08:43:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> <002901d8fa8f$5ae56500$10b02f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00fe01d8faa3$c42f5840$4c8e08c0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Missile Coordinates On Thu, 17 Nov 2022 at 14:20, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Omar, what if? a missile battery commander switched the target coordinates, a missile went into a NATO country accidentally triggering World War 3, the POTUS couldn?t remember the code for the football, the USA ended up getting nuked beyond recognition before the American people even knew how to pronounce the name Lviv. > > Oh the writers of this sim are so imaginative. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >?It's a war, remember? Everybody is lying / producing propaganda? BillK Ja. This one appears to have a modicum of plausibility: >?Using million dollar missiles to shoot down cheap drones is draining Ukrainian funds, so Uncle Joe better keep sending money and weapons? Draining Ukrainian funds? Last I heard the USA was paying for those missiles. >?Or, if Ukraine 'accidentally' sent a missile into Poland and blamed Russia, maybe NATO or the US might send troops to help fight Russia and get World War III really started. BillK Ja. One might think we would be in some ways better off without nukes. Oy vey. BillK, it all causes me to occasionally let my mind wander into places where perhaps it is best to not go, and imagine, just for fun, just imagine? that all this? really is not a digital simulation. What if? it isn?t all just a game? It is some kind of? non-artificial? real reality? The mind boggles. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14461 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Thu Nov 17 17:18:40 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 09:18:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> Message-ID: <652A22F9-8D68-4E4C-B5CB-09036CADA428@taramayastales.com> > On Nov 17, 2022, at 5:00 AM, Omar Rahman via extropy-chat wrote: > > Optimistic scenario My generation was raised to believe that even 99 misplaced balloons could start WW3. In my book, we're already in the optimistic scenario if at least the bar is held up for missiles. :P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 17 18:22:35 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 10:22:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> <002901d8fa8f$5ae56500$10b02f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015001d8fab1$91fd4680$b5f7d380$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ >...It's a war, remember? Everybody is lying / producing propaganda. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, this really has my wheels spinning. I don't know how this missile business really went down, I don't pretend to have reliable sources for it. But, being a huge fan of Wag the Dog, to this day one of my top 3 favorite movies, I started thinking of ways they could pull off a gag like they did to distract the press in Wag. The missile hit way out in the middle of nowhere, but within Poland. They could get a Ukrainian missile, detonate it out where no one was around, collect up the debris, sneak over into Poland to the latitude of Kiev and longitude of Lviv, scatter the rocket bits around, take a coupla corpses from the local morgue, add some shrapnel wounds, blast a hole in the ground, see if the press falls for it. Or wait, there is a better way: take an actual perfectly functional missile over close to the border in Ukrainian territory, intentionally enter the coordinates latitude of Kiev, longitude of Lviv, missile lands out in Poland's equivalent of Kalamazoo, blame the commies, for the Ukrainians would not be attempting to bomb their own cities, ja? The two fatalities would then be accidental, never intending to trigger World War 3. If it did, then World War 3 would be as accidental as was WW1, which was also said to have been triggered by a double homicide. Consider how much more sophisticated we are today than we were even as recently as 25 years ago (which was pre-Google (and the internet had waaaaay less information on it.)) Now we really do know a hell of a lot more about a hell of a lot more, but we are far less sure that what we know is accurate information. In some ways, I liked it better when humanity didn't actually have the ability to destroy modern civilization, a simpler time when nearly all the world's nuclear weapons were not under the control of three guys, none of whom any of us actually trust. spike From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 17 19:29:15 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 11:29:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: <015001d8fab1$91fd4680$b5f7d380$@rainier66.com> References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> <002901d8fa8f$5ae56500$10b02f00$@rainier66.com> <015001d8fab1$91fd4680$b5f7d380$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <016501d8faba$e1dedd90$a59c98b0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com _______________________________________________ >...BillK, this really has my wheels spinning. I don't know how this missile business really went down, I don't pretend to have reliable sources for it... spike BillK I had another idea, just sayin. In the USA, anyone can suggest anything one wants, any wacky theory, regardless of how absurd, as long as the words "just sayin" are appended, with the intentionally dropped g. So just in case I forget to append just sayin, do allow me to just say it up front: just sayin. Just sayin, what if... the commies really did fire that missile in a very clever double wag the dog. Granted it isn't clear if the wag or the dog is doubled, but think about it: the commies capture a Ukrainian missile, wait until they are bombing Kiev and Lviv, fire the missile from somewhere inside Ukrainian territory with intentionally flubbed coordinates, missile lands in Poland, western press runs with the bad old commies line, commies claim they didn't fire it, they find the bits and discover it is a Ukrainian missile, retract the story, making the commies look innocent and falsely accused. Just sayin that would be a risky but possibly effective double wag the dog. Meanwhile... we don't really know who fired that missile. spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:40:27 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 14:40:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> Message-ID: I'm a conspiracy theorist but this is kinda nonsensical imo. I'd reckon they have a fancier interface these days than just entering coordinates. Would imagine they use satellite maps or such On Thu, Nov 17, 2022, 8:01 AM Omar Rahman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hey all, > > You know that missile that landed in Poland that everyone is now saying > was a Ukrainian S300 SAM and definitely not a Russian S300 SAM missile? > > Coordinates for: > > Kiev (50.4505318, 30.5229899) > > Lviv (49.8395881, 24.0301160) > > > Take the latitude of Kiev and the longitude of Livi and you get: > > > Place1 (50.4505318, 24.0301160) > > > Place1 is in Poland, and is VERY close to a little village called > Pzrewodow where a mysterious missile killed 2 people. > > > I?m betting on Russian incompetence in entering the coordinates. So, with > so many examples of Russian incompetence on display, why am I highlighting > this one? > > > Because the American and Polish governments are not letting the Ukrainian > government investigate. > > > Optimistic scenario: NATO is deescalating the situation. > > > Pessimistic scenario: NATO just blinked. > > > I?m looking at it from the optimistic scenario point of view. > > > Any thoughts? > > > Regards, > > > Omar > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 17 19:55:45 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 11:55:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> Message-ID: <000701d8fabe$959ffcd0$c0dff670$@rainier66.com> On Thu, Nov 17, 2022, 8:01 AM Omar Rahman via extropy-chat > wrote: Hey all, ?. >?Optimistic scenario: NATO is deescalating the situation. >?Pessimistic scenario: NATO just blinked. >?I?m looking at it from the optimistic scenario point of view. >?Any thoughts? Regards, Omar _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Missile Coordinates >?I'm a conspiracy theorist but this is kinda nonsensical imo. Told ya Omar! That?s what you get for not sayin just sayin! Had you said just sayin, then we know it is idle speculation. I don?t wish to deter that, for it is my favorite brand of speculation. >? I'd reckon they have a fancier interface these days than just entering coordinates? That isn?t clear to me, but it might be right. Seems like they shoulda had some kind of check and safety system, but you never know with these guys, either side. In any case Omar, I hope you are right in that NATO calmly thinks it over and realizes this might be bad guy vs bad guy, decides it is the kind of conflict just not worth destroying civilization over. Might be best to just let it play out, live to nuke the planet another day. Just sayin. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:59:25 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 14:59:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] power law model of BTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gordon?! Last I saw you was like 15 years ago here when there was that massive argument about Searle. I don't even remember who was on which side! On Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 8:01 PM Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Giovanni. Fancy meeting you here. > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 3:30 PM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> I heard about BTC in 2010 for the first time in this list. I bought my >> first BTC in 2012 because of this list. >> > > Likewise. > > I believe a list member created or was a main force behind BTC creation. >> > > Hal Finney was on this list in those days, as I recall. > > > > > > > > >> I have written about mathematical models of BTC that predict a steady >> growth of BTC (with oscillations around the general trend) that will >> eventually bring the value of BTC to 1M. Here an early post: >> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9cqi0k/bitcoin_power_law_over_10_year_period_all_the_way/ >> Here is a live chart based on my model. >> >> https://buybitcoinworldwide.com/stats/long-term-power-law/ >> >> The power law is evident in a log-log plot (it shows as a straight line >> in a log-log chart). I have studied many other assets and only gold and >> silver follow long term power laws in time. >> The temporary bubbles and downtrends are not what is important but the >> general trend that is very predictable. >> Giovanni >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 20:06:00 2022 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 15:06:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] power law model of BTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: P.S. I got my first BTC in 2012 as well. Unfortunately, though I discussed it here, I found out about it from a Vice article about Silk Road, so that's where all my BTC went-- thousands upon thousands of bitcoins. Ah well, that's life. At least I can say I did a couple hundred million bucks of drugs and lived to tell the tale ;) Kidding aside, I'm back in the crypto loop and working on a defi game/entertainment project (though that is a paltry descriptor of the real scope of the thing.) Will let y'all know when we are launching, and shoot me a message if you're interested. I wanna be one of the Googles or Amazons of crypto, coming out of this crash. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 20:23:49 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 20:23:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Nov 2022 at 19:42, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > > I'm a conspiracy theorist but this is kinda nonsensical imo. I'd reckon they have a fancier interface these days than just entering coordinates. Would imagine they use satellite maps or such > _______________________________________________ Depends on finding out exactly what model of missile it was. If it was one of the old anti-aircraft S300 type used by Ukraine then they just aim at the drone, miss or fail to explode, and it keeps going until it runs out of fuel. BillK From sjatkins at protonmail.com Thu Nov 17 21:10:35 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 21:10:35 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> References: <70955A07-D600-4192-90A4-93B96B56C706@me.com> Message-ID: Why is this even a thing? Poland borders on a region in a hot shooting war. Accidental munition hits would be expected. Regardless of who fired this particular missile it was an accident. Not something to push for Article 5 invocation, which is to respond to actual invasion and on purpose military assault, as some have done. Poland, arguably for some good reasons, has been strongly anti-Russia for some time. If anyone was going to make a big deal of this they would be likely to. On examination of telemetry it looks like a SAM system that does use Russian hardware. Even if it was a Russian system that fired it and it went astray it makes no material difference to it being an accident. That Ukraine insists despite the analysis that Russia fired it makes no sense. That the world makes it a subject of so much conjecture makes little sense. What exactly would examining the site give of real material value that is not already at hand? Nothing that I can think of. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 6:00 AM, Omar Rahman via extropy-chat wrote: > Hey all, > > You know that missile that landed in Poland that everyone is now saying was a Ukrainian S300 SAM and definitely not a Russian S300 SAM missile? > > Coordinates for: > > Kiev (50.4505318, 30.5229899) > > Lviv (49.8395881, 24.0301160) > > Take the latitude of Kiev and the longitude of Livi and you get: > > Place1 (50.4505318, 24.0301160) > > Place1 is in Poland, and is VERY close to a little village called Pzrewodow where a mysterious missile killed 2 people. > > I?m betting on Russian incompetence in entering the coordinates. So, with so many examples of Russian incompetence on display, why am I highlighting this one? > > Because the American and Polish governments are not letting the Ukrainian government investigate. > > Optimistic scenario: NATO is deescalating the situation. > > Pessimistic scenario: NATO just blinked. > > I?m looking at it from the optimistic scenario point of view. > > Any thoughts? > > Regards, > > Omar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 17 21:14:17 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 13:14:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] power law model of BTC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101d8fac9$8ddd9830$a998c890$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] power law model of BTC >?Gordon?! Last I saw you was like 15 years ago here? Ja, welcome back Gordon. Where ya been? >?when there was that massive argument about Searle. I don't even remember who was on which side! I don?t know what that is, but if we restart the debate over it, I volunteer to be agin? it. I noticed Comet Samantha made a brief appearance a few days ago too. I contacted Lee Daniel Crocker, hoping he would drop in, but nada so far. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 21:10:47 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 21:10:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What do the stars make an astrophysicist feel? Message-ID: Starts With A Bang ? November 11, 2022 Ethan Siegel We're used to scientists telling us about the math and physics behind astronomical events. But what does studying space make us feel? Quote: We are all limited creatures, struggling to make the right decisions, find meaning to our existence, and to leave the world a better place than we found it. Yes, there?s no evidence that there?s anyone out there watching over us, looking out for us, or coming to save us from ourselves. But there?s something tremendously hopeful about that, too: it means in all the Universe, as far as we know, we have only one another to be kind to, or to receive kindness from. Whenever I reach that point, as I look up at and ponder the vast expanse of deep space, I know it?s been time well-spent. ----------------- Inspiring article! BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 21:20:01 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 15:20:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] What do the stars make an astrophysicist feel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: we have only one another to be kind to, or to receive kindness from--billk If aliens observed how kind we were to each other I don't think they'd like to meet us. How many of us actually practice forgiveness? If you asked the average person if they had a grudge against someone, how many would say None! bill w On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 3:13 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Starts With A Bang ? November 11, 2022 Ethan Siegel > > We're used to scientists telling us about the math and physics behind > astronomical events. But what does studying space make us feel? > > > Quote: > We are all limited creatures, struggling to make the right decisions, > find meaning to our existence, and to leave the world a better place > than we found it. Yes, there?s no evidence that there?s anyone out > there watching over us, looking out for us, or coming to save us from > ourselves. But there?s something tremendously hopeful about that, too: > it means in all the Universe, as far as we know, we have only one > another to be kind to, or to receive kindness from. Whenever I reach > that point, as I look up at and ponder the vast expanse of deep space, > I know it?s been time well-spent. > ----------------- > > Inspiring article! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Nov 18 21:26:52 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 13:26:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20221118132652.Horde.Om8tfzQDL7Ks19QR7t_lQ5z@sollegro.com> Quoting Omar Rahman: > You know that missile that landed in Poland that everyone is now > saying was a Ukrainian S300 SAM and definitely not a Russian S300 > SAM missile? > > Coordinates for: > > Kiev (50.4505318, 30.5229899) > > Lviv (49.8395881, 24.0301160) > > Take the latitude of Kiev and the longitude of Livi and you get: > > Place1 (50.4505318, 24.0301160) > > Place1 is in Poland, and is VERY close to a little village called > Pzrewodow where a mysterious missile killed 2 people. > > I?m betting on Russian incompetence in entering the coordinates. So, > with so many examples of Russian incompetence on display, why am I > highlighting this one? > > Because the American and Polish governments are not letting the > Ukrainian government investigate. > > Optimistic scenario: NATO is deescalating the situation. > > Pessimistic scenario: NATO just blinked. > > I?m looking at it from the optimistic scenario point of view. > > Any thoughts? > > Regards, > > Omar Well for one thing, if it was a SAM, then GPS coordinates are irrelevant. SAM stands for Surface to Air Missile, and those things are usually radar-guided or heat-seeking missiles meant to destroy aircraft. If it crashed onto the ground, in Poland or anywhere else, then it was because it missed its intended target and ran out of fuel; no matter who it belonged to. It wasn't deliberate because nobody would use a SAM on a ground target. Stuart LaForge From gadersd at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 21:50:09 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 16:50:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What do the stars make an astrophysicist feel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <253FEB86-01DE-4963-89FE-D71BD0D42587@gmail.com> I suspect that most if not all intelligent alien species would be as aggressive and violent as humans are. Competition and violence is at the root of life, at least for evolved life. It may be the case that some alien life that is itself created by an intelligence will be benign by design. > On Nov 18, 2022, at 4:20 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > we have only one another to be kind to, or to receive kindness from--billk > > If aliens observed how kind we were to each other I don't think they'd like to meet us. How many of us actually practice forgiveness? If you asked the average person if they had a grudge against someone, how many would say None! bill w > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 3:13 PM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: > Starts With A Bang ? November 11, 2022 Ethan Siegel > > We're used to scientists telling us about the math and physics behind > astronomical events. But what does studying space make us feel? > > > > Quote: > We are all limited creatures, struggling to make the right decisions, > find meaning to our existence, and to leave the world a better place > than we found it. Yes, there?s no evidence that there?s anyone out > there watching over us, looking out for us, or coming to save us from > ourselves. But there?s something tremendously hopeful about that, too: > it means in all the Universe, as far as we know, we have only one > another to be kind to, or to receive kindness from. Whenever I reach > that point, as I look up at and ponder the vast expanse of deep space, > I know it?s been time well-spent. > ----------------- > > Inspiring article! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 18 22:39:54 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 14:39:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] What do the stars make an astrophysicist feel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002b01d8fb9e$ae7f9130$0b7eb390$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] What do the stars make an astrophysicist feel? Starts With A Bang ? November 11, 2022 Ethan Siegel We're used to scientists telling us about the math and physics behind astronomical events. But what does studying space make us feel? Quote: We are all limited creatures, struggling to make the right decisions, find meaning to our existence, and to leave the world a better place than we found it. Yes, there?s no evidence that there?s anyone out there watching over us, looking out for us, or coming to save us from ourselves. But there?s something tremendously hopeful about that, too: it means in all the Universe, as far as we know, we have only one another to be kind to, or to receive kindness from. Whenever I reach that point, as I look up at and ponder the vast expanse of deep space, I know it?s been time well-spent. ----------------- Inspiring article! BillK _______________________________________________ Bah. Feel schmeel. Give me an EQUATION to solve. {8^D Oh BillK, I can soooo relate to that article, thx. Regarding those things we are struggling to do, astrophysics is useless in all three: 1. struggling to make the right decisions? Astrophysics points out that it is irrelevant what we do down here. 2. find meaning to our existence? Astrophysics assures us there isn't any meaning to our existence. 3. Leave the world a better place? Astrophysics doesn't have a variable for "better" and demonstrates better or worse is undefined. Yet, somehow... I find all three of those as oddly reassuring. I am weird that way. It also motivates me to be kind to others, for we lifeforms are the only sonsabitches we have, no one else out there to be kind to. We hafta squander all our kindness right here on this planet. Astrophysics is way cool in its own right. Thanks for the article BillK! spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 18 22:43:58 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 14:43:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: <20221118132652.Horde.Om8tfzQDL7Ks19QR7t_lQ5z@sollegro.com> References: <20221118132652.Horde.Om8tfzQDL7Ks19QR7t_lQ5z@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <002c01d8fb9f$3fc61e70$bf525b50$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Missile Coordinates Quoting Omar Rahman: > You know that missile that landed in Poland that everyone is now > saying was a Ukrainian S300 SAM and definitely not a Russian S300 SAM > missile? > ... >...Well for one thing, if it was a SAM, then GPS coordinates are irrelevant. SAM stands for Surface to Air Missile, and those things are usually radar-guided or heat-seeking missiles meant to destroy aircraft. If it crashed onto the ground, in Poland or anywhere else, then it was because it missed its intended target and ran out of fuel; no matter who it belonged to. It wasn't deliberate because nobody would use a SAM on a ground target. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Ja, the Ukrainians are now saying it was one of theirs, and are apologizing to the Polish, but the commies are still responsible because the Ukrainians had to fire the SAM at an incoming drone. In any case, it was a kinda cool conspiracy theory while it lasted. The conspiracy theory team has been on a hot streak the last few months. Shows to go ya: can't win em all. spike From avant at sollegro.com Sat Nov 19 23:20:09 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 15:20:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do Message-ID: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> Hi Spike for some reason the server keeps bouncing this back to me as spam. Please forward to the list. Thanks. Quoting Spike: > I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don't understand > it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by someone, > possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main selling point > of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by blockchain, which is said to > be inherently secure. So. this looter, what did she steal? Digital > currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of paper currency, and if so, why did > FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? > But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel with > the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy > heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a million > bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest American bill, > the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said to be missing and that > just doesn't sound like something that would be easily carted away. It > would be a heeellll of a job just loading the truck. But if it is digital > currency which was stolen, how can they suppose the looter somehow got away > with 400 megabucks? > This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. > Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. The reason the the FTX saga makes so little sense is that people are still trying to see it as some sort of failed business enterprise. Near as I can tell based on the following bankruptcy filing by John J. Ray III (the guy who oversaw Enron's bankruptcy case) the company was never meant to be viable and was designed from the ground up to be an inscrutable scam meant to defraud investors, funnel money to Sam Bankman-Fried and his cronies, and avoid any accountability or transparency. It was all just an elaborate shell game using other people's money for personal gain. https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23310507/ftx-bankruptcy-filing-john-j-ray-iii.pdf Interesting excerpts include the following items: 4. I have over 40 years of legal and restructuring experience. I have been the Chief Restructuring Officer or Chief Executive Officer in several of the largest corporate failures in history. I have supervised situations involving allegations of criminal activity and malfeasance (Enron). I have supervised situations involving novel financial structures (Enron and Residential Capital) and cross-border asset recovery and maximization (Nortel and Overseas Shipholding). Nearly every situation in which I have been involved has been characterized by defects of some sort in internal controls, regulatory compliance, human resources and systems integrity. 5. Never in my career have I seen such a complete failure of corporate controls and such a complete absence of trustworthy financial information as occurred here. From compromised systems integrity and faulty regulatory oversight abroad, to the concentration of control in the hands of a very small group of inexperienced, unsophisticated and potentially compromised individuals, this situation is unprecedented. 46. Many of the companies in the FTX Group, especially those organized in Antigua and the Bahamas, did not have appropriate corporate governance. I understand that many entities, for example, never had board meetings 50. The FTX Group did not maintain centralized control of its cash. Cash management procedural failures included the absence of an accurate list of bank accounts and account signatories, as well as insufficient attention to the creditworthiness of banking partners around the world. Under my direction, the Debtors are establishing a centralized cash management system with proper controls and reporting mechanisms. 59. The FTX Group?s approach to human resources combined employees of various entities and outside contractors, with unclear records and lines of responsibility. At this time, the Debtors have been unable to prepare a complete list of who worked for the FTX Group as of the Petition Date, or the terms of their employment. Repeated attempts to locate certain presumed employees to confirm their status have been unsuccessful to date. 62. The Debtors did not have the type of disbursement controls that I believe are appropriate for a business enterprise. For example, employees of the FTX Group submitted payment requests through an on-line ?chat? platform where a disparate group of supervisors approved disbursements by responding with personalized emojis. 71. One of the most pervasive failures of the FTX.com business in particular is the absence of lasting records of decision-making. Mr. Bankman-Fried often communicated by using applications that were set to auto-delete after a short period of time, and encouraged employees to do the same. Sam Bankman-Fried is like the Bernie Madhoff of cryptocurrency. Stuart LaForge From gadersd at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 00:09:28 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 19:09:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> Message-ID: Whether it be business or politics, people too often use charisma as the measure of competence and the results often prove disastrous. I wonder if this intrinsic human gullibility will ever diminish? Part of me wants this collective stupidity to remain as it makes for an easy payday for those with a head on their shoulders, even if only by shorting dumb business ventures/cons. > On Nov 19, 2022, at 6:20 PM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Hi Spike for some reason the server keeps bouncing this back to me as spam. Please forward to the list. Thanks. > > Quoting Spike: > >> I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don't understand >> it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by someone, >> possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main selling point >> of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by blockchain, which is said to >> be inherently secure. So. this looter, what did she steal? Digital >> currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of paper currency, and if so, why did >> FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? >> But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel with >> the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy >> heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a million >> bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest American bill, >> the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said to be missing and that >> just doesn't sound like something that would be easily carted away. It >> would be a heeellll of a job just loading the truck. But if it is digital >> currency which was stolen, how can they suppose the looter somehow got away >> with 400 megabucks? >> This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. >> Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. > > > The reason the the FTX saga makes so little sense is that people are > still trying to see it as some sort of failed business enterprise. > > Near as I can tell based on the following bankruptcy filing by John J. > Ray III (the guy who oversaw Enron's bankruptcy case) the company was > never meant to be viable and was designed from the ground up to be an > inscrutable scam meant to defraud investors, funnel money to Sam > Bankman-Fried and his cronies, and avoid any accountability or > transparency. It was all just an elaborate shell game using other > people's money for personal gain. > > https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23310507/ftx-bankruptcy-filing-john-j-ray-iii.pdf > > Interesting excerpts include the following items: > > 4. I have over 40 years of legal and restructuring experience. I have been the > Chief Restructuring Officer or Chief Executive Officer in several of > the largest corporate failures > in history. I have supervised situations involving allegations of > criminal activity and > malfeasance (Enron). I have supervised situations involving novel > financial structures (Enron > and Residential Capital) and cross-border asset recovery and > maximization (Nortel and Overseas > Shipholding). Nearly every situation in which I have been involved has > been characterized by > defects of some sort in internal controls, regulatory compliance, > human resources and systems > integrity. > > 5. Never in my career have I seen such a complete failure of corporate > controls and such a complete absence of trustworthy financial > information as occurred here. > From compromised systems integrity and faulty regulatory oversight > abroad, to the concentration > of control in the hands of a very small group of inexperienced, > unsophisticated and potentially > compromised individuals, this situation is unprecedented. > > 46. Many of the companies in the FTX Group, especially those organized in > Antigua and the Bahamas, did not have appropriate corporate > governance. I understand that > many entities, for example, never had board meetings > > 50. The FTX Group did not maintain centralized control of its cash. Cash > management procedural failures included the absence of an accurate > list of bank accounts and > account signatories, as well as insufficient attention to the > creditworthiness of banking partners > around the world. Under my direction, the Debtors are establishing a > centralized cash > management system with proper controls and reporting mechanisms. > > 59. The FTX Group?s approach to human resources combined employees of > various entities and outside contractors, with unclear records and > lines of responsibility. At this time, the Debtors have been unable to > prepare a complete list of who worked for the FTX Group as of the > Petition Date, or the terms of their employment. Repeated attempts to > locate certain presumed employees to confirm their status have been > unsuccessful to date. > > 62. The Debtors did not have the type of disbursement controls that I believe > are appropriate for a business enterprise. For example, employees of > the FTX Group submitted > payment requests through an on-line ?chat? platform where a disparate > group of supervisors > approved disbursements by responding with personalized emojis. > > 71. One of the most pervasive failures of the FTX.com business in particular > is the absence of lasting records of decision-making. Mr. > Bankman-Fried often communicated > by using applications that were set to auto-delete after a short > period of time, and encouraged > employees to do the same. > > Sam Bankman-Fried is like the Bernie Madhoff of cryptocurrency. > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 20 00:15:17 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 16:15:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> Here ya go Stuart, forwarded. I added a comment and question at the bottom. spike -----Original Message----- From: Stuart LaForge Sent: Saturday, 19 November, 2022 3:20 PM To: ExI Chat ; spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: lotta splainin to do Hi Spike for some reason the server keeps bouncing this back to me as spam. Please forward to the list. Thanks. Quoting Spike: > I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don't > understand it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by > someone, possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main > selling point of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by > blockchain, which is said to be inherently secure. So. this looter, > what did she steal? Digital currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of > paper currency, and if so, why did FXT have a huge pile of cash when inflation is at 8%? > But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel > with the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy > heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a > million bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest > American bill, the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said > to be missing and that just doesn't sound like something that would be > easily carted away. It would be a heeellll of a job just loading the > truck. But if it is digital currency which was stolen, how can they > suppose the looter somehow got away with 400 megabucks? > This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. > Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. The reason the the FTX saga makes so little sense is that people are still trying to see it as some sort of failed business enterprise. Near as I can tell based on the following bankruptcy filing by John J. Ray III (the guy who oversaw Enron's bankruptcy case) the company was never meant to be viable and was designed from the ground up to be an inscrutable scam meant to defraud investors, funnel money to Sam Bankman-Fried and his cronies, and avoid any accountability or transparency. It was all just an elaborate shell game using other people's money for personal gain. https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23310507/ftx-bankruptcy-filing-john-j-ray-iii.pdf Interesting excerpts include the following items: 4. I have over 40 years of legal and restructuring experience. I have been the Chief Restructuring Officer or Chief Executive Officer in several of the largest corporate failures in history. I have supervised situations involving allegations of criminal activity and malfeasance (Enron). I have supervised situations involving novel financial structures (Enron and Residential Capital) and cross-border asset recovery and maximization (Nortel and Overseas Shipholding). Nearly every situation in which I have been involved has been characterized by defects of some sort in internal controls, regulatory compliance, human resources and systems integrity. 5. Never in my career have I seen such a complete failure of corporate controls and such a complete absence of trustworthy financial information as occurred here. From compromised systems integrity and faulty regulatory oversight abroad, to the concentration of control in the hands of a very small group of inexperienced, unsophisticated and potentially compromised individuals, this situation is unprecedented. 46. Many of the companies in the FTX Group, especially those organized in Antigua and the Bahamas, did not have appropriate corporate governance. I understand that many entities, for example, never had board meetings 50. The FTX Group did not maintain centralized control of its cash. Cash management procedural failures included the absence of an accurate list of bank accounts and account signatories, as well as insufficient attention to the creditworthiness of banking partners around the world. Under my direction, the Debtors are establishing a centralized cash management system with proper controls and reporting mechanisms. 59. The FTX Group?s approach to human resources combined employees of various entities and outside contractors, with unclear records and lines of responsibility. At this time, the Debtors have been unable to prepare a complete list of who worked for the FTX Group as of the Petition Date, or the terms of their employment. Repeated attempts to locate certain presumed employees to confirm their status have been unsuccessful to date. 62. The Debtors did not have the type of disbursement controls that I believe are appropriate for a business enterprise. For example, employees of the FTX Group submitted payment requests through an on-line ?chat? platform where a disparate group of supervisors approved disbursements by responding with personalized emojis. 71. One of the most pervasive failures of the FTX.com business in particular is the absence of lasting records of decision-making. Mr. Bankman-Fried often communicated by using applications that were set to auto-delete after a short period of time, and encouraged employees to do the same. Sam Bankman-Fried is like the Bernie Madhoff of cryptocurrency. Stuart LaForge Stuart, this has the ring of truth to it, and leaves me asking the same question I was asking 20 years ago in a subgroup of ExI: if we embrace digital currency, how do we get to the place where we can all use it the way we use fiat currency? Think of the last dozen transactions you did, perhaps the grocery store (owwwww damn) the gas station (owwwww damn) paid your power bill (owwwww damn) your mortgage (well at least that one didn't change.) Now, if not for exchanges, how can those be done? Digital currency necessitates exchanges, ja? We need something like cryptocurrency cash machines analogous to what banks already have. Alternative: those institutions listed above need to accept digital currency. Do we have any which do? Which? spike From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 01:30:53 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 17:30:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, No exchanges are not needed, they are just convenient. 1) If we just adopted some of the most solid crypto like BTC and it was a universal currencies all the transactions would be in BTC so no need to go back and forth to fiat. Even salaries and services would be paid in BTC so fiat could be completely bypassed. This is theoretical and not happening yet but in principle this is the best solution to the problem you are mentioning. 2) In the meanwhile a better solution to centralization of existing exchanges would be decentralized exchanges. In this case depositing electronically cash (using a debit card for example) in such exchange would not allow the owner of the exchanges to have access to your cash but be more like an escrow account. The person that owns the account has the key to the account. Then all the transactions would be peer to peer and only if both parties agree the exchange is allowed. This is what is called a smart contract. The using the debt card part is where we would need collaboration from existing institutions like banks. Many banks allow you to use your a debit card or bank account to buy BTC on exchanges like Coinbase. While Coinbase is pretty solid they are still very much centralized. It would be better if they would work as an escrow account and facilitate peer to peer transactions but it doesn't work in that way. They basically have control of the cash you deposited and give you credit for what you deposited and then through internal accounting keep track of the trades you have done. It should not work in that way. It is done in that way because it is more convenient and easier to put all the money in a pool and keep track of the transactions and then only when somebody wants to withdraw crypto from the exchange or convert back to cash you get back your money and you are in control again. This allows the incredible weakness of the people in control of the exchange to run away with the money or do stupid things with it like using it to trade with high risky leverage exactly like FTX did. There are some decentralized exchanges but as far as I know they only convert crypto to crypto and not from fiat to crypto and back to fiat. But it is a solvable problem not sure why there is not more work in this area. This is where the real potential of crypto really is. It should be all about cutting the middle man (almost completely, one would still pay some little fee for the escrow service). Here a good article about decentralized exchanges. https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/decentralized-exchange-crypto-dex Giovanni On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 4:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Here ya go Stuart, forwarded. I added a comment and question at the > bottom. > > spike > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stuart LaForge > Sent: Saturday, 19 November, 2022 3:20 PM > To: ExI Chat ; spike at rainier66.com > Subject: Re: lotta splainin to do > > > Hi Spike for some reason the server keeps bouncing this back to me as > spam. Please forward to the list. Thanks. > > Quoting Spike: > > > I keep hearing of this FTX digital money exchange, but I don't > > understand it. Some news agencies are reporting that it was looted by > > someone, possibly an insider, but that makes no sense because the main > > selling point of bitcoin was that ownership is maintained by > > blockchain, which is said to be inherently secure. So. this looter, > > what did she steal? Digital currency? Or did FTX have a huge pile of > > paper currency, and if so, why did FXT have a huge pile of cash when > inflation is at 8%? > > But if they did, was that cash in a safe, then some sneaky scoundrel > > with the combination hauled away the loot in the back of a very sturdy > > heavily-loaded delivery truck? A USA bill has about 1g mass, so a > > million bills is a ton, so even if all that moola was in the largest > > American bill, the 100, we are still talking 4 tons of currency said > > to be missing and that just doesn't sound like something that would be > > easily carted away. It would be a heeellll of a job just loading the > > truck. But if it is digital currency which was stolen, how can they > > suppose the looter somehow got away with 400 megabucks? > > This story makes no sense to me. A puzzled rocket scientist I am. > > Adrian or some of you other hep cats, do explain please. > > > The reason the the FTX saga makes so little sense is that people are still > trying to see it as some sort of failed business enterprise. > > Near as I can tell based on the following bankruptcy filing by John J. > Ray III (the guy who oversaw Enron's bankruptcy case) the company was > never meant to be viable and was designed from the ground up to be an > inscrutable scam meant to defraud investors, funnel money to Sam > Bankman-Fried and his cronies, and avoid any accountability or > transparency. It was all just an elaborate shell game using other people's > money for personal gain. > > > https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23310507/ftx-bankruptcy-filing-john-j-ray-iii.pdf > > Interesting excerpts include the following items: > > 4. I have over 40 years of legal and restructuring experience. I have been > the Chief Restructuring Officer or Chief Executive Officer in several of > the largest corporate failures in history. I have supervised situations > involving allegations of criminal activity and malfeasance (Enron). I have > supervised situations involving novel financial structures (Enron and > Residential Capital) and cross-border asset recovery and maximization > (Nortel and Overseas Shipholding). Nearly every situation in which I have > been involved has been characterized by defects of some sort in internal > controls, regulatory compliance, human resources and systems integrity. > > 5. Never in my career have I seen such a complete failure of corporate > controls and such a complete absence of trustworthy financial information > as occurred here. > From compromised systems integrity and faulty regulatory oversight > abroad, to the concentration of control in the hands of a very small group > of inexperienced, unsophisticated and potentially compromised individuals, > this situation is unprecedented. > > 46. Many of the companies in the FTX Group, especially those organized in > Antigua and the Bahamas, did not have appropriate corporate governance. I > understand that many entities, for example, never had board meetings > > 50. The FTX Group did not maintain centralized control of its cash. Cash > management procedural failures included the absence of an accurate list of > bank accounts and account signatories, as well as insufficient attention to > the creditworthiness of banking partners around the world. Under my > direction, the Debtors are establishing a centralized cash management > system with proper controls and reporting mechanisms. > > 59. The FTX Group?s approach to human resources combined employees of > various entities and outside contractors, with unclear records and lines of > responsibility. At this time, the Debtors have been unable to prepare a > complete list of who worked for the FTX Group as of the Petition Date, or > the terms of their employment. Repeated attempts to locate certain presumed > employees to confirm their status have been unsuccessful to date. > > 62. The Debtors did not have the type of disbursement controls that I > believe are appropriate for a business enterprise. For example, employees > of the FTX Group submitted payment requests through an on-line ?chat? > platform where a disparate group of supervisors approved disbursements by > responding with personalized emojis. > > 71. One of the most pervasive failures of the FTX.com business in > particular is the absence of lasting records of decision-making. Mr. > Bankman-Fried often communicated > by using applications that were set to auto-delete after a short period of > time, and encouraged employees to do the same. > > Sam Bankman-Fried is like the Bernie Madhoff of cryptocurrency. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > > > > Stuart, this has the ring of truth to it, and leaves me asking the same > question I was asking 20 years ago in a subgroup of ExI: if we embrace > digital currency, how do we get to the place where we can all use it the > way we use fiat currency? Think of the last dozen transactions you did, > perhaps the grocery store (owwwww damn) the gas station (owwwww damn) paid > your power bill (owwwww damn) your mortgage (well at least that one didn't > change.) Now, if not for exchanges, how can those be done? Digital > currency necessitates exchanges, ja? We need something like cryptocurrency > cash machines analogous to what banks already have. Alternative: those > institutions listed above need to accept digital currency. Do we have any > which do? Which? > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 20 02:29:09 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 18:29:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do Spike, >?No exchanges are not needed, they are just convenient. 1) If we just adopted some of the most solid crypto like BTC and it was a universal currencies all the transactions would be in BTC so no need to go back and forth to fiat?Giovanni OK thanks Giovanni, that clarifies some things, and leads me to an idea. Your notion of a debit card is good and might work to some extent, but let me try an alternative notion: issue a credit card rather than a debit card. The credit card industry is apparently so profitable, one can heat one?s house burning paper mail offers for the damn things, but I am satisfied with my credit card, so? in the trash they go. I don?t burn them: that many tons of CO2 would melt the ice caps with my credit card junk mail alone. Entire landfills have had their capacity devoured resulting in their closure, from my credit card offers. So? we create a credit card company with the payment infrastructure already handed to us by the industry, but our CC would stand out from the rest because the bill can be paid either by fiat currency or BtC, at the exchange rate of the day. A prole would use the CC the same way as any other, and the merchant still gets her money the usual way in her choice of currency. We could use the CC to buy or sell BtC. The CC works the way the others do: they cost nothing if you pay your balance every month, they charge felonious, scandalous interest rates if you fall behind. The public risks nothing. They are not required to believe in BtC to use the card. They can use it just like any other card. The merchants risk nothing, it is business as usual for them. The BtC hipster can use that card to buy or sell cryptocurrency. There is no pile of money anywhere for a huckster to? huck, because that system doesn?t actually require a big pile of money or BtC to be owned by that CC company. They just handle the mechanics of buying and selling the cryptocurrency. Giovanni, I would suggest something like this is needed before cryptocurrency becomes mainstream. We have had BtC for years now, and I still can?t use it the way I use fiat currency, there are no credit cards available that I know of which accept BtC in payment. Until we get that, a system where the public can use BtC without accepting the risk of owning it, then neither BtC nor the other cryptocurrencies will advance to mainstream. Ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 20 02:38:10 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 18:38:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <003601d8fc87$e0571ea0$a1055be0$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003601d8fc87$e0571ea0$a1055be0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003c01d8fc89$22297110$667c5330$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Saturday, 19 November, 2022 6:29 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] lotta splainin to do ?> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat >?Giovanni, I would suggest something like this is needed before cryptocurrency becomes mainstream. We have had BtC for years now, and I still can?t use it the way I use fiat currency, there are no credit cards available that I know of which accept BtC in payment. ?spike I have seen the log log graphs of the value of BtC with respect to fiat currency, yet I have not been compelled to buy the stuff. However, I am ready to make a prediction here, and offer an idea for the development I am waiting for, before I will buy BtC: the appearance of a credit card which will take BtC in payment which is accepted by merchants. If that shows up, I predict the value of BtC will take off, with new fortunes being made, just as we watched our friends make piles of money on it the first time. My prediction: the credit card step must take place at some point. Otherwise, I predict that BtC will not increase in value along that logarithmic line we saw. I predict it will level off without a credit card. Keep this prediction where you can find it. You heard it first right here. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4214 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 20 02:57:42 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 18:57:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <003c01d8fc89$22297110$667c5330$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003601d8fc87$e0571ea0$a1055be0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d8fc89$22297110$667c5330$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000a01d8fc8b$dc38bff0$94aa3fd0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >?If that shows up, I predict the value of BtC will take off, with new fortunes being made, just as we watched our friends make piles of money on it the first time. My prediction: the credit card step must take place at some point. Otherwise, I predict that BtC will not increase in value along that logarithmic line we saw. I predict it will level off without a credit card?spike Giovanni I have some full disclosin? to do. Those who have known me a long time know that I am a big fan of using background computing, unused computer cycles, to calculate something of inherent value, such as? Mersenne primes. There are 51 of these known, but when Hal and I (and several others) were discussing the possibility of selling a privately-discovered Mersenne prime, there were only 37 known (that was in about 1998. Since then, 14 more of them were discovered so we get a new one about every coupla years. However? then BtC came along, and those background computing cycles could be used to mine BtC, so they had actual monetary value. Result: we are now in the longest Mersenne prime desert since an internet group (GIMPS) was organized to do systematic searching in 1995. We are coming up on four years since the last Mersenne prime was discovered. Result: I am PISSED! I am really really annoyed! I liked it better when those cycles were going toward discovering an aspect of nature, rather than just making money. I don?t actually mind, provided I am the one making money of course. But otherwise, I want something we can all enjoy: more Mersenne primes. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4194 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 20 04:54:55 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2022 20:54:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <003c01d8fc89$22297110$667c5330$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003601d8fc87$e0571ea0$a1055be0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d8fc89$22297110$667c5330$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001301d8fc9c$3c982010$b5c86030$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ?> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat >?before I will buy BtC: the appearance of a credit card which will take BtC in payment which is accepted by merchants. spike OK, well the FTX exchange was run by a guy who took advantage of the dumb game: Investors will not make that mistake again. Many of us learned a terrific lesson, without even losing any money (few lessons are that way in this life.) What I learned is that in order for BtC or any other c$ to be practical, it needs a credit card (specifically not a debit card, hasta be a credit card) which is widely accepted. Then c$ offers an advantage that fiat currency cannot offer, without the inherent risk any debit card would have, the risk that the founder is a phony taking advantage of the dumb game of woke shibboleths. There might be the opposite end of that spectrum, a company started by whatever is the opposite of that (slept shibboleths?) There might be one more good scam here before people are smart enough to realize that greed and corruption have no political party. It is universal. In general, it is easy to see that an exchange is necessary and that if one appears to be successful, it is a terrific investment opportunity. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 27920 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 08:28:42 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2022 00:28:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You can google BTC credit card, there are many hits. Here is one for example: https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/business/issuers/grow-your-business/crypto/card-program.html?cmp=2022.q2.us.nam.all.brand.ser.na.ccp.386901.sep.txt.googles On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 6:30 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do > > > > Spike, > > >?No exchanges are not needed, they are just convenient. > 1) If we just adopted some of the most solid crypto like BTC and it was a > universal currencies all the transactions would be in BTC so no need to go > back and forth to fiat?Giovanni > > > > OK thanks Giovanni, that clarifies some things, and leads me to an idea. > > Your notion of a debit card is good and might work to some extent, but let > me try an alternative notion: issue a credit card rather than a debit card. > > The credit card industry is apparently so profitable, one can heat one?s > house burning paper mail offers for the damn things, but I am satisfied > with my credit card, so? in the trash they go. I don?t burn them: that > many tons of CO2 would melt the ice caps with my credit card junk mail > alone. Entire landfills have had their capacity devoured resulting in > their closure, from my credit card offers. > > So? we create a credit card company with the payment infrastructure > already handed to us by the industry, but our CC would stand out from the > rest because the bill can be paid either by fiat currency or BtC, at the > exchange rate of the day. A prole would use the CC the same way as any > other, and the merchant still gets her money the usual way in her choice of > currency. We could use the CC to buy or sell BtC. The CC works the way > the others do: they cost nothing if you pay your balance every month, they > charge felonious, scandalous interest rates if you fall behind. > > The public risks nothing. They are not required to believe in BtC to use > the card. They can use it just like any other card. The merchants risk > nothing, it is business as usual for them. The BtC hipster can use that > card to buy or sell cryptocurrency. There is no pile of money anywhere for > a huckster to? huck, because that system doesn?t actually require a big > pile of money or BtC to be owned by that CC company. They just handle the > mechanics of buying and selling the cryptocurrency. > > Giovanni, I would suggest something like this is needed before > cryptocurrency becomes mainstream. We have had BtC for years now, and I > still can?t use it the way I use fiat currency, there are no credit cards > available that I know of which accept BtC in payment. Until we get that, a > system where the public can use BtC without accepting the risk of owning > it, then neither BtC nor the other cryptocurrencies will advance to > mainstream. Ja? > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 20 14:45:50 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:45:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002d01d8fcee$c925e6f0$5b71b4d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do You can google BTC credit card, there are many hits. Here is one for example: https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/business/issuers/grow-your-business/crypto/card-program.html?cmp=2022.q2.us.nam.all.brand.ser.na.ccp.386901.sep.txt.googles Cool thx Giovanni. This is extremely almost what I was thinking. This one comment makes me a little less than full sure: But remember that the crypto cards still function as normal credit cards, so the balances need to be paid off each month or else you?ll have to pay interest or late fees. While you?ll usually buy things and pay off your card in US dollars, some cards allow you to make purchases (and pay off your card) with cryptocurrency that?s in your associated account. The credit card company in those cases hold your account with your cryptocurrency keys in there? That?s what I don?t quite get. One big advantage of cryptocurrency is that it isn?t clear if a person owns it. The US tax forms are now asking if a prole owns any, but it isn?t clear to me one is legally obligated to answer that question. That probably depends on which legal system one is under, which is determined in the USA by which political party one supports. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 21 03:51:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2022 19:51:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002e01d8fd5c$91a50800$b4ef1800$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat ? Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do Spike, >?No exchanges are not needed, they are just convenient. >?1) If we just ? {?did something that we haven?t done?} >?2) In the meanwhile ? {?do this other thing we also haven?t done?} >?Giovanni OK thx Giovanni. I agree completely with your observations on decentralization and I agree. We are not there yet, but that is where we need to be. As is often the case (well, OK always the case) I am late to the party as I have not followed cryptocurrency, other than cheering for friends who made it big in BtC, such as Jeff Davis. It occurred to me that the perspective of an outsider or tyro (me) is of value too, because I ask the obvious questions that the proletariat will ask the day after I do, and may come to similar conclusions that I did. So? reading my na?ve commentary enables you to know what the proletariat will likely do, which enables hipsters to make money investing shrewdly. Shrewd investment is really about correctly predicting the future movement of the masses, or more specifically the mass of money. Get ahead of that wave, surf on it, and some of that money splashes into your pockets. The obvious observation regarding that cryptocurrency exchange FTX: it demonstrated that the usual rules don?t apply if one follows the simple expediency of buying the loyalty of the politicians in power. That is what happened here, ja? If so, if my cynical outlook is correct (always bet on human greed (you seldom lose that way)) then the other cryptocurrency exchanges most likely did and are doing the same thing this Sam Bankan-Fried character perpetrated, for all the same reasons. This will lead eventually to the same outcome FTX demonstrated last week, for all the same reasons. Hey cool, we can make money short-selling all the remaining cryptocurrency exchanges. It?s all good, just so long as I personally make a buttload of money on it. Otherwise not. If I personally lose money then it?s unacceptable! It?s unethical, immoral, I tells ya! Aughta be illegal! I?ll call my congressman. Oh wait, retract, she?s on the payroll. Giovanni, I hope there is a flaw in my reasoning, and the FTX effect doesn?t apply to all existing cryptocurrency exchanges, for if it does, they will go down in a chain reaction like a row of dominoes, and we will be back to where cryptocurrency has no convenient safe secure way to trade back and forth between fiat and digital currency. I get the feeling those two currency systems really just need to find a way to work together, to coexist peacefully, in parallel. One big bridge between the two just collapsed and now we are questioning the structural soundness of the rest of them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rahmans at me.com Mon Nov 21 11:07:45 2022 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 12:07:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2022 21:10:35 +0000 > From: sjatkins > > > Why is this even a thing? Poland borders on a region in a hot shooting war. Accidental munition hits would be expected. Regardless of who fired this particular missile it was an accident. Not something to push for Article 5 invocation, which is to respond to actual invasion and on purpose military assault, as some have done. Poland, arguably for some good reasons, has been strongly anti-Russia for some time. If anyone was going to make a big deal of this they would be likely to. On examination of telemetry it looks like a SAM system that does use Russian hardware. Even if it was a Russian system that fired it and it went astray it makes no material difference to it being an accident. That Ukraine insists despite the analysis that Russia fired it makes no sense. That the world makes it a subject of so much conjecture makes little sense. What exactly would examining the site give of real material value that is not already at hand? Nothing that I can think of. The only difference is that Ukraine is trying to maintain its 'good guy? status, i.e. to not hit civilian targets. In the end it should also make a difference as to who pays reparations for this accident to Poland and the victims. Currently, several percent of the Ukrainian population is sheltering in Poland so good relations are essential for Ukraine. > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2022 13:26:52 -0800 > From: Stuart LaForge > > > Well for one thing, if it was a SAM, then GPS coordinates are > irrelevant. SAM stands for Surface to Air Missile, and those things > are usually radar-guided or heat-seeking missiles meant to destroy > aircraft. If it crashed onto the ground, in Poland or anywhere else, > then it was because it missed its intended target and ran out of fuel; > no matter who it belonged to. It wasn't deliberate because nobody > would use a SAM on a ground target. In fact it seems that Russia has been modifying S300 SAM systems for use as rocket artillery. A S300 normally has a self destruct system that activates in the air if it misses. This is because you are defending with these missiles and don?t want your S300s landing on whatever you are defending. In any case we will probably never know for sure if this was an accident, a Russian provocation, or a Ukrainian false flag operation. From my perspective, I?m glad that the situation was deescalated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 21 14:32:43 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 06:32:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Missile Coordinates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006001d8fdb6$1ec60a00$5c521e00$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Omar Rahman via extropy-chat ? >?In any case we will probably never know for sure if this was an accident, a Russian provocation, or a Ukrainian false flag operation? Ah OK thx for that Omar. If the Russia/Ukraine war triggers global nuclear annihilation, we can take some posthumous comfort in knowing that it might have been accidental. I feel better already. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 21 15:52:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 07:52:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] new yellow flag Message-ID: <002a01d8fdc1$433a7690$c9af63b0$@rainier66.com> A powerful senator asked for leniency for Theranos fraudster Elizabeth Holmes. She defrauded billions from investors but the good senator assured the judge that she was a thoughtful philanthropic individual seeking to make the world a better place. Hmmm, that sounds familiar, where else did we hear that last week? Oh right, Sam Bankman-Fried was also a philanthropic individual, skilled at retail politics and so on. OK then, we see a clear pattern here. When any charismatic CEO starts going on about wanting to save the world, that CEO wants to liberate your money thru the expediency of buying the loyalty of politicians, making their personal bank balance a better place. Conspicuous altruism has now become the new yellow flag for investors, or perhaps for those of us who are now living and observant, it becomes the new orange flag. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 16:06:20 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 10:06:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] new yellow flag In-Reply-To: <002a01d8fdc1$433a7690$c9af63b0$@rainier66.com> References: <002a01d8fdc1$433a7690$c9af63b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Conspicuous altruism spike Love it! But maybe it qualifies as an oxymoron. bill w On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 9:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > A powerful senator asked for leniency for Theranos fraudster Elizabeth > Holmes. She defrauded billions from investors but the good senator assured > the judge that she was a thoughtful philanthropic individual seeking to > make the world a better place. Hmmm, that sounds familiar, where else did > we hear that last week? Oh right, Sam Bankman-Fried was also a > philanthropic individual, skilled at retail politics and so on. OK then, > we see a clear pattern here. > > > > When any charismatic CEO starts going on about wanting to save the world, > that CEO wants to liberate your money thru the expediency of buying the > loyalty of politicians, making their personal bank balance a better place. > > > > Conspicuous altruism has now become the new yellow flag for investors, or > perhaps for those of us who are now living and observant, it becomes the > new orange flag. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 21 16:07:33 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 08:07:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >>?But remember that the crypto cards still function as normal credit cards, so the balances need to be paid off each month or else you?ll have to pay interest or late fees. While you?ll usually buy things and pay off your card in US dollars, some cards allow you to make purchases (and pay off your card) with cryptocurrency that?s in your associated account. >?The credit card company in those cases hold your account with your cryptocurrency keys in there? That?s what I don?t quite get?spike Do pardon what must sound like repetition to cryptocurrency hipsters, but the following question or observation may focus my inquiry. In a sense, fiat currency systems and digital currency are competitors, with governments in general cheering for fiat currency, because it empowers their interests whereas digital currency empowers the proletariat. Traditional currency is deposited in a bank, where the government will prosecute anyone who runs off with the deposits. But if we deposit digital currency in anything analogous to a traditional bank, we must hand over the keys analogous to handing over currency to a bank. The big difference is the government will do little or nothing if someone runs off with your cryptocurrency. Ja? Hell they might cheer for whoever ran off with your digital currency, probably even mocking the depositors with comments such as: when you hand over your digital keys to any trustee, your digital currency become community property, with the community consisting of you plus everyone who has access to those digital keys. Therefore? no theft took place. You were excluded from the community is all. Or: if you hand over your crypto-keys and someone steals your BtCs, what have they actually stolen? Nothing! They stole numbers? Numbers are free. It isn?t like they stole actual money, digital money is imaginary (and so on?) Conclusion: we need to hold on to our own BtCs, never ?depositing? them in anything, never using them as surety for a BtC-backed credit card, never any application where we allow anyone else to hold our encryption keys, for as soon as we hand over to anyone those keys, that virtual money becomes that person?s virtual property. Oh I have become so cynical I just hate myself! Or not, but if someone can talk me out of that dark line of reasoning, I am all eyes. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5466 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 16:34:55 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 10:34:55 -0600 Subject: [ExI] history of math Message-ID: I read where Fibonacci, aka Leonardo of Pisa, discovered the use of Arabic numerals around 1200 . Far better than Roman numerals, he said. Does that mean that the West used only Roman numerals until that time? If so, no wonder nothing got done in the Middle Ages. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 21 16:49:04 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 08:49:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] new yellow flag In-Reply-To: References: <002a01d8fdc1$433a7690$c9af63b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006701d8fdc9$2b19baf0$814d30d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] new yellow flag >>?Conspicuous altruism spike >?Love it! But maybe it qualifies as an oxymoron. bill w Oxymoron, no way Jose! Conspicuous altruism is all true, not an oxymoron at all. If anything it is the opposite: an oxygenius. spike ? >>?Conspicuous altruism has now become the new yellow flag for investors, or perhaps for those of us who are now living and observant, it becomes the new orange flag. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 21 16:55:02 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 08:55:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] history of math In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007f01d8fdc9$ffff39c0$fffdad40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, 21 November, 2022 8:35 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] history of math >?I read where Fibonacci, aka Leonardo of Pisa, discovered the use of Arabic numerals around 1200 . Far better than Roman numerals, he said. >?Does that mean that the West used only Roman numerals until that time? If so, no wonder nothing got done in the Middle Ages. bill w My understanding is they used both. Pope Sylvester II used and taught the Arabic numerals toward the end of the 10th century but Roman numerals fought back and held on for a while. You can?t do any real math with the Roman number system, but of course Rome wanted a monopoly on power. Funny how things never change, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:40:35 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 13:40:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 11:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Oh I have become so cynical I just hate myself! Or not, but if someone can > talk me out of that dark line of reasoning, I am all eyes. > You really shouldn't give anyone your wallet. Even with fiat currency, you are participating in a mass hallucination for how money works. Your "dark line of reasoning" is a matter of spin. I don't have a problem with spin, it's pretty useful if/when you understand it. (and yeah, i mean figurative and also the literal physics property... which maybe is easier to understand because it's more fundamentally consistent than the figurative kind) So I have a stack of paper that I can exchange with merchants for actual stuff (fuel for my body, fuel for my car, other zero-sum resources, kk?) and when I have too big of a stack of paper I am worried that someone could bonk me on the head and take my stack. Banks are ostensibly more bonk-resistant, so I give them my stack with the understanding that they will give it back when I request it. There is already so much inherently wrong with the assumptions in that transaction that some have sought to right the wrong via cryptocurrency - mostly by assuming nothing, improving transparency, and employing crowd-source authentication of transactions (that's what mining actually is, yeah?) Since I was ok [sic] with the bank holding my money, I am less likely to get bonked by a bad-guy (though fees and such are small bonks from the bank itself, but what'r gonna do?) I am ok [sic] with, for example, paypal holding a wallet with a few cryptocoins. I was already relying on paypal to do transactions with web merchants, with the expectation that they would act as another layer of security between the unknown level of trust that is the merchant and direct access to the stack of money that i keep at the bank. I accept the risk of paypal stealing my crypto along with the risk of paypal stealing the stack of fiat right out my bank. For that matter, I also accept the risk of my bank also refusing to return my money. I also have to understand the risk associated with even having the stuff that money buys. We have a whole system of checks and balances to keep civilization from collapsing into a primitive fang & claw competition for stuff. Those known as "preppers" assert that collapse is imminent. I appreciate the sentiment but continue to (in this case) literally buy-into the mass hallucination of an economic watering hole that is stable enough to predict and anticipate. I guess what I'm suggesting here is that if we aren't going to accept the terms and conditions of the social contract for civilization, we have more difficult problems to DIY solve (without any of the economy of scale that a group's convention would afford) My main concern for a crypto-backed credit card mechanism is that the volatility of 'value' means I will have to pay too much attention to the currency of currency. It's bad enough that I still have in mind what a pizza "should" cost as of 20 years ago and haven't really caught up my mental model with recent increases in costs and inflation. Imagine that a pizza today is 1 pizzacoin. Due to a shift in supply/demand, the same meal is 2 pizzacoin. I had budgeted 1 pizzacoin per day and thanks to the variable store of value, I can no longer afford the remainder of the week's meals. Maybe Elon will tweet an offer to exchange powerbricks for pizzacoin and they'll adjust relative to pizza that 1 meal will cost only 0.5 pizzacoin. In that case, should I purchase a week's worth of pizza before the pizzacoin bubble bursts again? Is the pizzacoin itself a better store of value than the pizza itself? If I can predict the rate of change, I can win on pizza futures. The biggest problem here is the instability of the coin - for the whales like Elon have too much influence on the exchange rate. Perhaps this is a new problem to solve? We could design a coin with a very low volatility, but then it would not offer the opportunity to 'get rich' by exploiting that volatility. I guess we have to decide what kind of coins we want to control us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 22:13:36 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 16:13:36 -0600 Subject: [ExI] new yellow flag In-Reply-To: <006701d8fdc9$2b19baf0$814d30d0$@rainier66.com> References: <002a01d8fdc1$433a7690$c9af63b0$@rainier66.com> <006701d8fdc9$2b19baf0$814d30d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In Veblen's use, conspicuous consumption was applied to the nouveau riche and was a slam - showing off, which is definitely not altruistic. bill w On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 10:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new yellow flag > > > > > > > > > > > > >>?Conspicuous altruism spike > > > > >?Love it! But maybe it qualifies as an oxymoron. bill w > > > > Oxymoron, no way Jose! Conspicuous altruism is all true, not an oxymoron > at all. If anything it is the opposite: an oxygenius. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > ? > > >>?Conspicuous altruism has now become the new yellow flag for investors, > or perhaps for those of us who are now living and observant, it becomes the > new orange flag. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 21 22:37:48 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 14:37:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] new yellow flag In-Reply-To: References: <002a01d8fdc1$433a7690$c9af63b0$@rainier66.com> <006701d8fdc9$2b19baf0$814d30d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007d01d8fdf9$e2bd7220$a8385660$@rainier66.com> ?.> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] new yellow flag >?In Veblen's use, conspicuous consumption was applied to the nouveau riche and was a slam - showing off, which is definitely not altruistic. bill w Ja. But now, altruism has really become the best way to show off. Conspicuous altruism is for the nouveau righteous. I know of this, for I am one of these nouveau righteous. I was an evil bastard until? um? last week. OK OK, a few minutes ago, but the important part is that I am a righteous bastard now. At least in my own mind anyway. Holmes and Bankman have taught us to immediately beware the minute we see anyone behaving in any conspicuously altruistic way. Last week I was doing Scouting for Food to support the local food bank. Lotsa people saw me, which means that now? nooooobody trusts me. They are watching me: every move I make, every cake I bake, every snack I take, they?ll be watching my ass. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 22:47:39 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 14:47:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, Money is a really fascinating subject. I'm interested in the topic of Econophysics (my name on reddit is Econophysicist1 and you can see there some of my earliest models on BTC price that have been correct for the last 10 years). Even before the advent of money the idea that people could specialize in a particular activity (making an axe for example, that even during the stone age was not something everybody could do or do well) and then exchange this good with somebody else that was specialized in some other activity (making clay pots) was incredibly revolutionary and the core foundation of civilization. Money sounds ridiculous when explained as an hallucination as you said. Really is an agreed upon convention like many other things in our human society such as social status, marriage, titles, property in general. Even owning something tangible as a piece of land is based on a convention. Geometry is called such because it was used for the first time to establish how much land, geo, somebody owned and then put on paper or papyrus or clay tablet "officially" how big a piece of land owned by somebody was to show then to others in case a dispute happened. Also among the earliest forms of writing there are clay tables counting the number of sheep a shepherd owned. Probably they were used as an early form of token to allow for transactions of some kind. Money as token came pretty early on in human civilization even so called primitive societies had some form of money like uncommon shells and other relatively rare tokens that indicated the value of the exchange between parties. There is a polynesian tribe that uses these huge stones that are not even moved around as a form of money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones Ownership of the stones is an agreed upon convention among the local people. One wonders why you then need a stone to signify the value at all given it is a useless intermediary object (that cannot even be moved around), but maybe the human mind needs to think you "own" something solid and not just an idea. Small tokens as coins are much more practical because you can carry them around (I guess the polinesian tribe mentioned above would argue that is also the problem with coins, they can be stolen while it is more difficult for huge stones). The use of metals (that were precious in general, even more common ones as bronze) was a great idea because metal had a value beyond convention because you could make tools and weapons with it. Among the first coins we have bronze weights that were basically small ingots. Romans used these ingots called aes signatum (signed bronze), to distinguish it from just a normal ingot. I guess being signed gave a particular value (so you didn't need to weigh it every time) and indicated as an "official" form of tender. Precious metals like silver and gold were eventually used because they were both rare, didn't decompose easily and had also religious and magical power. Ancient civilizations like the Egyptians or Babylon didn't have coins but used precious metals and small ingots as a form of currency. Coins in general are a relatively new concept. The oldest known coin is the Lydian Lion that was created in Asia Minor around 600 BC. China came with the same idea more or less at the same time independently (as far as we know). While Romans didn't invent coins, in fact basically copied their Magna Grecia neighbors, they contributed immensely in making the concept a universal concept. I know a little about coin history because I do collect them. I have several Roman coins (only silver because the gold ones are so expensive, you can buy a car with some less expensive ones). I do have a few gold solidus from the Byzantine era. The Roman understood your conundrum, Spike. How do we give value and trust to these coins and why coins vs just a piece of metal like the Egyptians did? You would think the value of the coins comes from the precious metal, and that is true up to a point. For sure it is more true for a coin than a banknote, given the banknote material is more or less worthless. The problem with thinking the value just comes from the metal is that in any transaction you should actually weigh the coin and also make sure the coin is made mostly of the material it is supposed to be made of (bronze, silver, gold). If you had to buy a piece of land that cost 1 M denarius (the silver Roman coin) then good luck in doing all that testing. The State did this work for you and assured a coin had a standard weight and it was pure up to a given value. You basically TRUSTED the Roman state to give the literal stamp of approval (the officer in charge of the Mint would put his face and name on the coin to take responsibility for the purity of the coin during the Republican era and then the Emperor himself did that during the Empire times). On the other side of the coin they were Gods and Goddesses. This was not by chance. The entire operation of minting the coin was called Moneta, which was an epithet for the Mother Goddess, wife of the Gods of Gods, Juno. The Temple of Juno Moneta is actually where the minting operations actually happened and it was considered a religious activity. In other words money was sacred, approved and supported by the Gods themselves. Romans were basically stamping "In Gods we trust" on their money before anybody else. You trusted Roman coins because the Gods approved it and probably punished anybody that would do bad things with such money like counterfeiting it (that happened often even if punishment would be very severe, like death for example). Anyway, gods or not, the trust in Roman money came from the fact they were a super power and using Roman coins allowed you to be part of that vast economy that spawned 3 continents. They continued to be used as a currency even after the fall of the Empire and in far places like India and China. Now these coins are worth much more than their value in the metal they are made of. A roman coin was about 4.5 g of gold that is about 250 dollars but some of the gold coins sell for tens of thousands or even 100 of thousands of dollars. What is going on there? Where does the value come from? It is not just rarity because the price of gold Roman coins now is given by the somehow arbitrary stuff like how well the coin is preserved (that is not linked to the material of the coin but some subjective artistic value) but also even more arbitrary like the Emperor under which the coin was minted and so on. If I was super rich I would want to own some of these gold coins because it is amazing to have a piece of history in your hand but you can do that by owning a silver one that you can get for a few hundred dollars. Part of why the Empire fell (many causes worked together really) actually came from the fact that the State started to be actually one of the bad actors by using less and less of the precious metals to which the coin value was pegged to so they could stamp more coins to support the huge Roman armies. They used less precious metals (mixing it with less precious ones) and then still called the coin with the same money implying same value as before. Bad idea. Look at this chart: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fineness_of_early_Roman_Imperial_silver_coins.png It was a bad move because the trust in the State in its fundamental function to guarantee the value of the coin went down as people discovered what the State was up to and merchants took things in their hands by changing the price of goods and this created huge inflation on all kinds of goods and great economical and social instability ensued. This was a common problem with the late Roman empire and not sure why was never fully addressed going back to stamping good finesse coins. I guess it was too tempting to produce shitty coins (also problems with getting the precious metals in the first place given the primitive mining capabilities of ancient societies). This also explains the obsession with finding Eldorado when the Spanish found the New World. Scholars published entire books and articles on this subject. Eventually it took the US to over do the Romans in losing trust with the citizens, when they decided to unpeg the value of dollars from gold. Now the money value is just completely arbitrary just in the hands of a state that doesn't always do the good for the people. When criticizing crypto, people say it is not backed by anything if you think about the dollars (the king of all fiats) is backed just by a promise of a State that this piece of paper (or actually a digital record in the bank) is worth something. Considering also the fact that the US literally produces billions of dollars on a regular basis from thin air not sure why we trust the dollars at all. It is pretty weird if you think about it. I guess the dollars is still a way to participate to the vast economy of the US and its allies and commercial partners (basically the entire world) and that is good enough, but the fact the dollars is more imagination and convention than Roman coins or crypto (given that BTC at least is finite) is very clear. So you see the problem of what you should trust or not regarding money is an ancient one and actually something crypto is trying to address. Remember the idea about crypto is that you should trust NOBODY when it concerns your money because with crypto (in theory and this is not achieved yet) you don't need to, it is supposed to be a trustless system. I will write more in the following post. Sorry if it is a long one but I think this is the type of medium where we can have this interesting convo without being restricted to a certain number of words. If some people in the list are not interested they don't have to read but I do enjoy this convo with you, Spike. It is thought provoking. Giovanni On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 10:42 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 11:14 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Oh I have become so cynical I just hate myself! Or not, but if someone >> can >> talk me out of that dark line of reasoning, I am all eyes. >> > > You really shouldn't give anyone your wallet. Even with fiat currency, > you are participating in a mass hallucination for how money works. Your > "dark line of reasoning" is a matter of spin. I don't have a problem with > spin, it's pretty useful if/when you understand it. (and yeah, i mean > figurative and also the literal physics property... which maybe is easier > to understand because it's more fundamentally consistent than the > figurative kind) > > So I have a stack of paper that I can exchange with merchants for actual > stuff (fuel for my body, fuel for my car, other zero-sum resources, kk?) > and when I have too big of a stack of paper I am worried that someone could > bonk me on the head and take my stack. Banks are ostensibly more > bonk-resistant, so I give them my stack with the understanding that they > will give it back when I request it. There is already so much inherently > wrong with the assumptions in that transaction that some have sought to > right the wrong via cryptocurrency - mostly by assuming nothing, improving > transparency, and employing crowd-source authentication of transactions > (that's what mining actually is, yeah?) > > Since I was ok [sic] with the bank holding my money, I am less likely to > get bonked by a bad-guy (though fees and such are small bonks from the bank > itself, but what'r gonna do?) I am ok [sic] with, for example, paypal > holding a wallet with a few cryptocoins. I was already relying on paypal > to do transactions with web merchants, with the expectation that they would > act as another layer of security between the unknown level of trust that is > the merchant and direct access to the stack of money that i keep at the > bank. I accept the risk of paypal stealing my crypto along with the risk > of paypal stealing the stack of fiat right out my bank. For that matter, I > also accept the risk of my bank also refusing to return my money. > > I also have to understand the risk associated with even having the stuff > that money buys. We have a whole system of checks and balances to keep > civilization from collapsing into a primitive fang & claw competition for > stuff. Those known as "preppers" assert that collapse is imminent. I > appreciate the sentiment but continue to (in this case) literally buy-into > the mass hallucination of an economic watering hole that is stable enough > to predict and anticipate. I guess what I'm suggesting here is that if we > aren't going to accept the terms and conditions of the social contract for > civilization, we have more difficult problems to DIY solve (without any of > the economy of scale that a group's convention would afford) > > My main concern for a crypto-backed credit card mechanism is that the > volatility of 'value' means I will have to pay too much attention to the > currency of currency. It's bad enough that I still have in mind what a > pizza "should" cost as of 20 years ago and haven't really caught up my > mental model with recent increases in costs and inflation. Imagine that a > pizza today is 1 pizzacoin. Due to a shift in supply/demand, the same meal > is 2 pizzacoin. I had budgeted 1 pizzacoin per day and thanks to the > variable store of value, I can no longer afford the remainder of the week's > meals. Maybe Elon will tweet an offer to exchange powerbricks for > pizzacoin and they'll adjust relative to pizza that 1 meal will cost only > 0.5 pizzacoin. In that case, should I purchase a week's worth of pizza > before the pizzacoin bubble bursts again? Is the pizzacoin itself a better > store of value than the pizza itself? If I can predict the rate of change, > I can win on pizza futures. The biggest problem here is the instability of > the coin - for the whales like Elon have too much influence on the exchange > rate. Perhaps this is a new problem to solve? We could design a coin with > a very low volatility, but then it would not offer the opportunity to 'get > rich' by exploiting that volatility. > > I guess we have to decide what kind of coins we want to control us. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 22 00:07:01 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 16:07:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do Spike, >?Money is a really fascinating subject? ? >?Sorry if it is a long one but I think this is the type of medium where we can have this interesting convo without being restricted to a certain number of words. If some people in the list are not interested they don't have to read but I do enjoy this convo with you, Spike. It is thought provoking. Giovanni Likewise Giovanni! Ja, that?s the magic of the written word. We do not demand anyone?s attention. This is the comment that made me think of a post I saw somewhere at some point, and I don?t remember where: >?Money is a really fascinating subject? At one point I didn?t know what to do with my life. I had an engineering degree and an engineering job at the time, but wasn?t sure I was going to make it a career. I went to a movie, which was Ferris Beuller?s Day Off. You might remember that as a funny movie, everything except the truly tragic part, the death of that 61 Ferrari GT. Oh how we car geeks wept. In that movie, a memorable scene solidified forever the words I often use to this day: Anyone? Anyone? Beullllerrrr? But note that the phrase is never actually said in the movie at all. Here?s the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhiCFdWeQfA This is remarkable because the actor, Ben Stein, is an actual real-life JD with a Yale education. The boring lecture is anatomically correct, perfectly correct, and really interesting, even if it is supposed to be the classic super boring lecture by an ultra-geek professor. He wasn?t using a script. That was an ad-lib. I wasn?t a business guy, I was an engineer. After I saw that goofy movie, I studied up on the Laffer curve and came damn close to going to graduate school to study economics. Right about that time, my workplace gave me something interesting to do. Turns out? my own childhood friend Barry Goodwin did get his PhD in economics and became a professor of economics at North Carolina State University. I didn?t know what Barry was doing in those years, but it blows my mind that both of us became interested in that topic. We never discussed it as kids. Neither of us had any of it. Economics really is cool. Money is cool. My current theory: it will prove inherently difficult to get fiat money and digital currency to play well together. That will be harder than it looks. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 00:13:10 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 18:13:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] new yellow flag In-Reply-To: <007d01d8fdf9$e2bd7220$a8385660$@rainier66.com> References: <002a01d8fdc1$433a7690$c9af63b0$@rainier66.com> <006701d8fdc9$2b19baf0$814d30d0$@rainier66.com> <007d01d8fdf9$e2bd7220$a8385660$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Conspicuous altruism has now become the new yellow flag for investors, or perhaps for those of us who are now living and observant, it becomes the new orange flag. - that above and the 'lack of trust' I don't get bill w On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 4:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?.*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] new yellow flag > > > > >?In Veblen's use, conspicuous consumption was applied to the nouveau > riche and was a slam - showing off, which is definitely not altruistic. > bill w > > > > > > > > Ja. But now, altruism has really become the best way to show off. > Conspicuous altruism is for the nouveau righteous. I know of this, for I > am one of these nouveau righteous. I was an evil bastard until? um? last > week. OK OK, a few minutes ago, but the important part is that I am a > righteous bastard now. At least in my own mind anyway. > > > > Holmes and Bankman have taught us to immediately beware the minute we see > anyone behaving in any conspicuously altruistic way. Last week I was doing > Scouting for Food to support the local food bank. Lotsa people saw me, > which means that now? nooooobody trusts me. They are watching me: every > move I make, every cake I bake, every snack I take, they?ll be watching my > ass. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 00:15:41 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 18:15:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I wonder if Dr. Goodwin has been wrenched along with the rest of his field by findings that people are not rational investors. bill On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 6:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do > > > > Spike, > > >?Money is a really fascinating subject? > > > ? > > >?Sorry if it is a long one but I think this is the type of medium where > we can have this interesting convo without being restricted to a certain > number of words. > If some people in the list are not interested they don't have to read but > I do enjoy this convo with you, Spike. > It is thought provoking. > Giovanni > > > > > > > > Likewise Giovanni! Ja, that?s the magic of the written word. We do not > demand anyone?s attention. This is the comment that made me think of a > post I saw somewhere at some point, and I don?t remember where: > > > > >?Money is a really fascinating subject? > > > At one point I didn?t know what to do with my life. I had an engineering > degree and an engineering job at the time, but wasn?t sure I was going to > make it a career. I went to a movie, which was Ferris Beuller?s Day Off. > You might remember that as a funny movie, everything except the truly > tragic part, the death of that 61 Ferrari GT. Oh how we car geeks wept. > > > > In that movie, a memorable scene solidified forever the words I often use > to this day: Anyone? Anyone? Beullllerrrr? > > > > But note that the phrase is never actually said in the movie at all. > Here?s the scene: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhiCFdWeQfA > > > > This is remarkable because the actor, Ben Stein, is an actual real-life JD > with a Yale education. The boring lecture is anatomically correct, > perfectly correct, and really interesting, even if it is supposed to be the > classic super boring lecture by an ultra-geek professor. He wasn?t using a > script. That was an ad-lib. I wasn?t a business guy, I was an engineer. > After I saw that goofy movie, I studied up on the Laffer curve and came > damn close to going to graduate school to study economics. Right about > that time, my workplace gave me something interesting to do. > > > > Turns out? my own childhood friend Barry Goodwin did get his PhD in > economics and became a professor of economics at North Carolina State > University. I didn?t know what Barry was doing in those years, but it > blows my mind that both of us became interested in that topic. We never > discussed it as kids. Neither of us had any of it. Economics really is > cool. Money is cool. > > > > My current theory: it will prove inherently difficult to get fiat money > and digital currency to play well together. That will be harder than it > looks. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 01:05:14 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 17:05:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, Yes crypto and fiat do not work well together because in general fiat belongs to the government and crypto is supposed to take away the power of control from the government. Powerful governments like the US would make illegal BTC (as China tried many times) if they really could but they do realize they cannot at the global level so they are trying to regulate it with actually negative results. For example, some of the most liquid crypto markets do not want to do business in the US, making the US a third world country in terms of financial innovation. Binance has a special US exchange (that is not really owned by Binance but it works with some kind of license agreement with Binance). People use VPN to go around these restrictions anyway so the entire thing to regulate something that cannot be regulate is stupid. Regulation is not the answer. When crypto came out was it supposed to be a revolution. When you have revolution heads roll and people that had power lose it. It was exciting to be part of that revolutionary thinking when the concept of crypto came out. I lost 34 BTC to be part of that excitement. A lot of money even now. I'm not sure if we lost the opportunity or if the revolution we expected will come in the future but playing nice with the government is not for sure part of the revolution, at least not this form of government. BTC in particular is here to stay in my opinion. Over time because of these problems of not being the best as a form of daily tender it has become a store of value as gold instead. In the long term the fluctuations you mentioned do not matter because actually the value of BTC went up many fold as a general trend and it will continue to do so until BTC has reached about a million dollars. Then the price will stabilize and it will not be a good short term investment but it should keep its value at least above inflation. It remains a fact that if you wanted to quickly transfer 1 M dollars for BTC to another country in particular it would be one of the fastest, cheapest and secure ways to do it with BTC. Just this potential gives BTC an enormous fungibility that is superior to cash (even digital cash given it takes several days to move even a few k via wire). It is not something you would want to do every day (as in buying goods and so on) but for large financial transfers it is ideal. This alone should give BTC a value that is much higher than the current one. There are so many interests that are put in danger by this potential that this power of BTC is not discussed often in the media and what is mentioned often is the potential for being used for money laundering. But this is because what people use for money laundry is mostly cash (like 99.999 % of the time). Money laundry using cash is 1000s of times more than any money laundry where crypto in general was used. Banks themselves are the biggest actors in terms of money laundering. This is because in particular for BTC you can actually track what is going on in terms of transactions much better with BTC than cash. This is again something that is never emphasized or described in the media. It is a misconception that crypto hides transactions, quite the contrary. Now there are anonymous (or they claim to be) cryptos like Monero but that is another topic. BTC value in fact could be all in the fact that you can track easily and forever the chain of ownership. This why one should separate also the idea of crypto currencies and block chain technology in general. Block chain has so many interesting uses besides currencies. https://news.sky.com/story/worlds-biggest-banks-allowed-criminals-to-launder-dirty-money-leaked-documents-allege-12077604 It is a really fucked up system and crypto is just used as a culprit many times when it is complete bs given it is happening mostly by the conventional channels we already have. Giovanni On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 4:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do > > > > Spike, > > >?Money is a really fascinating subject? > > > ? > > >?Sorry if it is a long one but I think this is the type of medium where > we can have this interesting convo without being restricted to a certain > number of words. > If some people in the list are not interested they don't have to read but > I do enjoy this convo with you, Spike. > It is thought provoking. > Giovanni > > > > > > > > Likewise Giovanni! Ja, that?s the magic of the written word. We do not > demand anyone?s attention. This is the comment that made me think of a > post I saw somewhere at some point, and I don?t remember where: > > > > >?Money is a really fascinating subject? > > > At one point I didn?t know what to do with my life. I had an engineering > degree and an engineering job at the time, but wasn?t sure I was going to > make it a career. I went to a movie, which was Ferris Beuller?s Day Off. > You might remember that as a funny movie, everything except the truly > tragic part, the death of that 61 Ferrari GT. Oh how we car geeks wept. > > > > In that movie, a memorable scene solidified forever the words I often use > to this day: Anyone? Anyone? Beullllerrrr? > > > > But note that the phrase is never actually said in the movie at all. > Here?s the scene: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhiCFdWeQfA > > > > This is remarkable because the actor, Ben Stein, is an actual real-life JD > with a Yale education. The boring lecture is anatomically correct, > perfectly correct, and really interesting, even if it is supposed to be the > classic super boring lecture by an ultra-geek professor. He wasn?t using a > script. That was an ad-lib. I wasn?t a business guy, I was an engineer. > After I saw that goofy movie, I studied up on the Laffer curve and came > damn close to going to graduate school to study economics. Right about > that time, my workplace gave me something interesting to do. > > > > Turns out? my own childhood friend Barry Goodwin did get his PhD in > economics and became a professor of economics at North Carolina State > University. I didn?t know what Barry was doing in those years, but it > blows my mind that both of us became interested in that topic. We never > discussed it as kids. Neither of us had any of it. Economics really is > cool. Money is cool. > > > > My current theory: it will prove inherently difficult to get fiat money > and digital currency to play well together. That will be harder than it > looks. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 01:20:54 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 20:20:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Do you think the technology behind cryptocurrencies could be used for broader goals than currency? Can blockchain technology or future technologies inspired by blockchain be used to run entire decentralized governments? I dream of a decentralized government system that is fairer and less corrupt than contemporary governments. > On Nov 21, 2022, at 8:05 PM, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat wrote: > > Spike, > Yes crypto and fiat do not work well together because in general fiat belongs to the government and crypto is supposed to take away the power of control from the government. Powerful governments like the US would make illegal BTC (as China tried many times) if they really could but they do realize they cannot at the global level so they are trying to regulate it with actually negative results. For example, some of the most liquid crypto markets do not want to do business in the US, making the US a third world country in terms of financial innovation. Binance has a special US exchange (that is not really owned by Binance but it works with some kind of license agreement with Binance). People use VPN to go around these restrictions anyway so the entire thing to regulate something that cannot be regulate is stupid. Regulation is not the answer. > When crypto came out was it supposed to be a revolution. > When you have revolution heads roll and people that had power lose it. It was exciting to be part of that revolutionary thinking when the concept of crypto came out. I lost 34 BTC to be part of that excitement. A lot of money even now. > I'm not sure if we lost the opportunity or if the revolution we expected will come in the future but playing nice with the government is not for sure part of the revolution, at least not this form of government. > BTC in particular is here to stay in my opinion. Over time because of these problems of not being the best as a form of daily tender it has become a store of value as gold instead. In the long term the fluctuations you mentioned do not matter because actually the value of BTC went up many fold as a general trend and it will continue to do so until BTC has reached about a million dollars. > Then the price will stabilize and it will not be a good short term investment but it should keep its value at least above inflation. It remains a fact that if you wanted to quickly transfer 1 M dollars for BTC to another country in particular it would be one of the fastest, cheapest and secure ways to do it with BTC. Just this potential gives BTC an enormous fungibility that is superior to cash (even digital cash given it takes several days to move even a few k via wire). > It is not something you would want to do every day (as in buying goods and so on) but for large financial transfers it is ideal. This alone should give BTC a value that is much higher than the current one. > There are so many interests that are put in danger by this potential that this power of BTC is not discussed often in the media and what is mentioned often is the potential for being used for money laundering. > But this is because what people use for money laundry is mostly cash (like 99.999 % of the time). Money laundry using cash is 1000s of times more than any money laundry where crypto in general was used. Banks themselves are the biggest actors in terms of money laundering. This is because in particular for BTC you can actually track what is going on in terms of transactions much better with BTC than cash. This is again something that is never emphasized or described in the media. It is a misconception that crypto hides transactions, quite the contrary. Now there are anonymous (or they claim to be) cryptos like Monero but that is another topic. BTC value in fact could be all in the fact that you can track easily and forever the chain of ownership. This why one should separate also the idea of crypto currencies and block chain technology in general. Block chain has so many interesting uses besides currencies. > > https://news.sky.com/story/worlds-biggest-banks-allowed-criminals-to-launder-dirty-money-leaked-documents-allege-12077604 > > It is a really fucked up system and crypto is just used as a culprit many times when it is complete bs given it is happening mostly by the conventional channels we already have. > > Giovanni > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 4:08 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > ?> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do > > > > Spike, > > > >?Money is a really fascinating subject? > > > ? > > >?Sorry if it is a long one but I think this is the type of medium where we can have this interesting convo without being restricted to a certain number of words. > If some people in the list are not interested they don't have to read but I do enjoy this convo with you, Spike. > It is thought provoking. > Giovanni > > > > > > > > Likewise Giovanni! Ja, that?s the magic of the written word. We do not demand anyone?s attention. This is the comment that made me think of a post I saw somewhere at some point, and I don?t remember where: > > > > >?Money is a really fascinating subject? > > > At one point I didn?t know what to do with my life. I had an engineering degree and an engineering job at the time, but wasn?t sure I was going to make it a career. I went to a movie, which was Ferris Beuller?s Day Off. You might remember that as a funny movie, everything except the truly tragic part, the death of that 61 Ferrari GT. Oh how we car geeks wept. > > > > In that movie, a memorable scene solidified forever the words I often use to this day: Anyone? Anyone? Beullllerrrr? > > > > But note that the phrase is never actually said in the movie at all. Here?s the scene: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhiCFdWeQfA > > > This is remarkable because the actor, Ben Stein, is an actual real-life JD with a Yale education. The boring lecture is anatomically correct, perfectly correct, and really interesting, even if it is supposed to be the classic super boring lecture by an ultra-geek professor. He wasn?t using a script. That was an ad-lib. I wasn?t a business guy, I was an engineer. After I saw that goofy movie, I studied up on the Laffer curve and came damn close to going to graduate school to study economics. Right about that time, my workplace gave me something interesting to do. > > > > Turns out? my own childhood friend Barry Goodwin did get his PhD in economics and became a professor of economics at North Carolina State University. I didn?t know what Barry was doing in those years, but it blows my mind that both of us became interested in that topic. We never discussed it as kids. Neither of us had any of it. Economics really is cool. Money is cool. > > > > My current theory: it will prove inherently difficult to get fiat money and digital currency to play well together. That will be harder than it looks. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 22 02:16:23 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 18:16:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] FW: lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015d01d8fe18$6bc82a60$43587f20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do I wonder if Dr. Goodwin has been wrenched along with the rest of his field by findings that people are not rational investors. Billw Doubt it Billw, his specialty is in supply side variables and price influences in cattle markets. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 02:25:04 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 18:25:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 5:22 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Can blockchain technology or future technologies inspired by blockchain be > used to run entire decentralized governments? I dream of a decentralized > government system that is fairer and less corrupt than contemporary > governments. > Wouldn't a decentralized government be more likely to be corrupt than contemporary governments? Think about how corruption happens. Think about how these factors are freer to act without oversight, monitoring or corrections. Is there a practical way to add that oversight - which requires a trusted, and therefore probably centralized (whether or not it is an AI), entity doing the oversight - without effectively making the government centralized (regardless of whether the government acknowledges its centralization)? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 03:15:48 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 22:15:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <5BF59CE4-1A3B-430D-8001-7DA707C10D73@gmail.com> Well, even cryptocurrency requires some degree of centralization, namely, the codebase. All the individuals must ensure that they are running compatible non-compromised software. I suppose an advanced AI could comprise the codebase and act as the centralized authority. It would be decentralized on some level assuming that the AI code would be public and verifiably transparent, impartial, and reliable. I would much rather be governed by such an AI system that I could personally verify than the snakes and vultures of today?s governments. > On Nov 21, 2022, at 9:25 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 5:22 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: > Can blockchain technology or future technologies inspired by blockchain be used to run entire decentralized governments? I dream of a decentralized government system that is fairer and less corrupt than contemporary governments. > > Wouldn't a decentralized government be more likely to be corrupt than contemporary governments? > > Think about how corruption happens. Think about how these factors are freer to act without oversight, monitoring or corrections. Is there a practical way to add that oversight - which requires a trusted, and therefore probably centralized (whether or not it is an AI), entity doing the oversight - without effectively making the government centralized (regardless of whether the government acknowledges its centralization)? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 03:17:57 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 19:17:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: One possible application of the block chain that I'm interested in is to create a catalog of ancient coins that preserves all the features and information about an ancient coin. Ideally would also be nice to use AI to recognize the coin and identify it as belonging to a particular time. The main application of this technology is to use it against counterfeiting, which is a big business in the numismatic world. Because of their high value many ancient coins are counterfeited and sold as original instead of reproductions. But if one could catalogue all the known recognized real coins and preserve the info (update the info too as we discover new coins) in a block chain that can be accessed via an app it could be really useful. Also it would be nice to create a system of possession transfer similar to what is done with titles of land. Of course, this would not be appreciated by people that want to hide their assets but I'm not sure in this case we want to facilitate the ownership of some ancient artefact being completely anonymous. This ownership would be similar to owning a crypto not necessarily a public piece of information linked to a name but at least we would know when the coin was sold, for which price, which auction in which location and so on. Basically a pedigree for the coin. You don't need to use the blockchain for such a catalogue system but a catalogue on the block chain has many advantages that conventional catalogues do not have, in particular you will get the coin and also the title to the coin when you buy the coin that will work as a form of authenticity certificate that is transferable. On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 6:26 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 5:22 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Can blockchain technology or future technologies inspired by blockchain >> be used to run entire decentralized governments? I dream of a decentralized >> government system that is fairer and less corrupt than contemporary >> governments. >> > > Wouldn't a decentralized government be more likely to be corrupt than > contemporary governments? > > Think about how corruption happens. Think about how these factors are > freer to act without oversight, monitoring or corrections. Is there a > practical way to add that oversight - which requires a trusted, and > therefore probably centralized (whether or not it is an AI), entity doing > the oversight - without effectively making the government centralized > (regardless of whether the government acknowledges its centralization)? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 07:16:11 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 23:16:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This is a very interesting article (there is even a mp3 if one wants to listen to the lecture) about how monetary policies of the late Roman empire contributed heavily to its fall. The final lesson is the rich became richer and the poor poorer, nothing is changed. https://mises.org/library/inflation-and-fall-roman-empire Giovanni On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 7:17 PM Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > One possible application of the block chain that I'm interested in is to > create a catalog of ancient coins that preserves all the features and > information about an ancient coin. Ideally would also be nice to use AI to > recognize the coin and identify it as belonging to a particular time. The > main application of this technology is to use it against counterfeiting, > which is a big business in the numismatic world. Because of their high > value many ancient coins are counterfeited and sold as original instead of > reproductions. But if one could catalogue all the known recognized real > coins and preserve the info (update the info too as we discover new coins) > in a block chain that can be accessed via an app it could be really useful. > Also it would be nice to create a system of possession transfer similar to > what is done with titles of land. Of course, this would not be appreciated > by people that want to hide their assets but I'm not sure in this case we > want to facilitate the ownership of some ancient artefact being completely > anonymous. This ownership would be similar to owning a crypto not > necessarily a public piece of information linked to a name but at least we > would know when the coin was sold, for which price, which auction in which > location and so on. Basically a pedigree for the coin. You don't need to > use the blockchain for such a catalogue system but a catalogue on the block > chain has many advantages that conventional catalogues do not have, in > particular you will get the coin and also the title to the coin when you > buy the coin that will work as a form of authenticity certificate that is > transferable. > > > > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 6:26 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 5:22 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Can blockchain technology or future technologies inspired by blockchain >>> be used to run entire decentralized governments? I dream of a decentralized >>> government system that is fairer and less corrupt than contemporary >>> governments. >>> >> >> Wouldn't a decentralized government be more likely to be corrupt than >> contemporary governments? >> >> Think about how corruption happens. Think about how these factors are >> freer to act without oversight, monitoring or corrections. Is there a >> practical way to add that oversight - which requires a trusted, and >> therefore probably centralized (whether or not it is an AI), entity doing >> the oversight - without effectively making the government centralized >> (regardless of whether the government acknowledges its centralization)? >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 07:35:33 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 23:35:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, Why California or any state would continue to accept dollars for taxes if it becomes worthless through inflation? Romans were in the same situation at one point and they refused to accept their own currency to pay taxes, they wanted pure gold or labor in kind. It was a sign the end was near for such an Empire. History is repeating again? Giovanni On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 11:16 PM Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > This is a very interesting article (there is even a mp3 if one wants to > listen to the lecture) about how monetary policies of the late Roman empire > contributed heavily to its fall. > The final lesson is the rich became richer and the poor poorer, nothing is > changed. > https://mises.org/library/inflation-and-fall-roman-empire > > > Giovanni > > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 7:17 PM Giovanni Santostasi > wrote: > >> One possible application of the block chain that I'm interested in is to >> create a catalog of ancient coins that preserves all the features and >> information about an ancient coin. Ideally would also be nice to use AI to >> recognize the coin and identify it as belonging to a particular time. The >> main application of this technology is to use it against counterfeiting, >> which is a big business in the numismatic world. Because of their high >> value many ancient coins are counterfeited and sold as original instead of >> reproductions. But if one could catalogue all the known recognized real >> coins and preserve the info (update the info too as we discover new coins) >> in a block chain that can be accessed via an app it could be really useful. >> Also it would be nice to create a system of possession transfer similar to >> what is done with titles of land. Of course, this would not be appreciated >> by people that want to hide their assets but I'm not sure in this case we >> want to facilitate the ownership of some ancient artefact being completely >> anonymous. This ownership would be similar to owning a crypto not >> necessarily a public piece of information linked to a name but at least we >> would know when the coin was sold, for which price, which auction in which >> location and so on. Basically a pedigree for the coin. You don't need to >> use the blockchain for such a catalogue system but a catalogue on the block >> chain has many advantages that conventional catalogues do not have, in >> particular you will get the coin and also the title to the coin when you >> buy the coin that will work as a form of authenticity certificate that is >> transferable. >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 6:26 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 5:22 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Can blockchain technology or future technologies inspired by blockchain >>>> be used to run entire decentralized governments? I dream of a decentralized >>>> government system that is fairer and less corrupt than contemporary >>>> governments. >>>> >>> >>> Wouldn't a decentralized government be more likely to be corrupt than >>> contemporary governments? >>> >>> Think about how corruption happens. Think about how these factors are >>> freer to act without oversight, monitoring or corrections. Is there a >>> practical way to add that oversight - which requires a trusted, and >>> therefore probably centralized (whether or not it is an AI), entity doing >>> the oversight - without effectively making the government centralized >>> (regardless of whether the government acknowledges its centralization)? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 07:42:05 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2022 23:42:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Faking coins in the ancient world. Where is money there is always an opportunity for cheating and exploitation no matter the medium. https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/thousands-of-roman-coins-found-across-europe-and-thought-to-be-genuine-are-fake-say-archeologists-6520 On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 11:35 PM Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > Spike, > Why California or any state would continue to accept dollars for taxes if > it becomes worthless through inflation? > Romans were in the same situation at one point and they refused to accept > their own currency to pay taxes, they wanted pure gold or labor in kind. > It was a sign the end was near for such an Empire. History is repeating > again? > Giovanni > > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 11:16 PM Giovanni Santostasi < > gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote: > >> This is a very interesting article (there is even a mp3 if one wants to >> listen to the lecture) about how monetary policies of the late Roman empire >> contributed heavily to its fall. >> The final lesson is the rich became richer and the poor poorer, nothing >> is changed. >> https://mises.org/library/inflation-and-fall-roman-empire >> >> >> Giovanni >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 7:17 PM Giovanni Santostasi < >> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> One possible application of the block chain that I'm interested in is to >>> create a catalog of ancient coins that preserves all the features and >>> information about an ancient coin. Ideally would also be nice to use AI to >>> recognize the coin and identify it as belonging to a particular time. The >>> main application of this technology is to use it against counterfeiting, >>> which is a big business in the numismatic world. Because of their high >>> value many ancient coins are counterfeited and sold as original instead of >>> reproductions. But if one could catalogue all the known recognized real >>> coins and preserve the info (update the info too as we discover new coins) >>> in a block chain that can be accessed via an app it could be really useful. >>> Also it would be nice to create a system of possession transfer similar to >>> what is done with titles of land. Of course, this would not be appreciated >>> by people that want to hide their assets but I'm not sure in this case we >>> want to facilitate the ownership of some ancient artefact being completely >>> anonymous. This ownership would be similar to owning a crypto not >>> necessarily a public piece of information linked to a name but at least we >>> would know when the coin was sold, for which price, which auction in which >>> location and so on. Basically a pedigree for the coin. You don't need to >>> use the blockchain for such a catalogue system but a catalogue on the block >>> chain has many advantages that conventional catalogues do not have, in >>> particular you will get the coin and also the title to the coin when you >>> buy the coin that will work as a form of authenticity certificate that is >>> transferable. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 6:26 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 5:22 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Can blockchain technology or future technologies inspired by >>>>> blockchain be used to run entire decentralized governments? I dream of a >>>>> decentralized government system that is fairer and less corrupt than >>>>> contemporary governments. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Wouldn't a decentralized government be more likely to be corrupt than >>>> contemporary governments? >>>> >>>> Think about how corruption happens. Think about how these factors are >>>> freer to act without oversight, monitoring or corrections. Is there a >>>> practical way to add that oversight - which requires a trusted, and >>>> therefore probably centralized (whether or not it is an AI), entity doing >>>> the oversight - without effectively making the government centralized >>>> (regardless of whether the government acknowledges its centralization)? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Tue Nov 22 08:29:23 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 08:29:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Ote of the reason older folks get grumpy Message-ID: <_925Wo0CtjVDXZSQ-lGjtM1WZmRLnH6hxAFilNRDfnr-DKeKIiSSA3EVhFKsPIhoOtCaxrcBGEk1s6L0SupaiG6n_ytX1V4eJt_gBtUNdNc=@protonmail.com> ?If your memory hasn't deteriorated too much you notice stuff being reported as new online or presented as new in conferences that you remember seeing at least a decade previously. It happens over and over again like an extended hit or miss partial groundhog day. "Verily there is nothing new under the Sun" and all that sort of thing. I guess they need to bring the younglings up to speed. https://phys.org/news/2022-11-game-changer-generation-microelectronics.html [?](https://phys.org/news/2022-11-game-changer-generation-microelectronics.html) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Tue Nov 22 08:43:03 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 08:43:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <002e01d8fd5c$91a50800$b4ef1800$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <002e01d8fd5c$91a50800$b4ef1800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I recommend the video below among others on the strange coincidences (or were there) and connections of FTX. I am deeply suspicious it was set up and fired off by government to effectively bring crypto under the control of the same folks that produced the rapacious and easy for government to control people with legacy financial system. That and killing off relatively free market crypto to usher in CBDC which will spell the death of any real financial freedom. https://odysee.com/@MarkMoss:7/evidence-ftx-was-a-deep-state-plan-to:0 Decentralization is great to some degree but it is complete fantasy that you can do all interesting and important computing in the world on some blockchain or with the sorts of "smart contracts" we have today. Some types of computational task don't lend themselves to fragmented byte-sized execution repeated endless times. I have some hope for zero knowledge proofs and their kin to prove compactly and efficiently that some computation was done and done with no shenanigans. That could improve parts of the situation. In the meantime I am happy enough with federated open source as being better and less prone to single points of failure or censorship and other controls. I also take hope in the tide turning to more localized and private computation and applications backed up in highly encrypted cloud storage with access strictly controlled. The situation in commercial computing is getting so messed up that development crews act as if they can do nothing unless AWS or Google Cloud or Azure tells them exactly how they are allowed to do it and at what cost. ------- Original Message ------- On Sunday, November 20th, 2022 at 8:51 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat > ? > Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do > > Spike, >>?No exchanges are not needed, they are just convenient. > >>?1) If we just ? > > {?did something that we haven?t done?} > >>?2) In the meanwhile ? > > {?do this other thing we also haven?t done?} > >>?Giovanni > > OK thx Giovanni. I agree completely with your observations on decentralization and I agree. We are not there yet, but that is where we need to be. > > As is often the case (well, OK always the case) I am late to the party as I have not followed cryptocurrency, other than cheering for friends who made it big in BtC, such as Jeff Davis. > > It occurred to me that the perspective of an outsider or tyro (me) is of value too, because I ask the obvious questions that the proletariat will ask the day after I do, and may come to similar conclusions that I did. So? reading my na?ve commentary enables you to know what the proletariat will likely do, which enables hipsters to make money investing shrewdly. Shrewd investment is really about correctly predicting the future movement of the masses, or more specifically the mass of money. Get ahead of that wave, surf on it, and some of that money splashes into your pockets. > > The obvious observation regarding that cryptocurrency exchange FTX: it demonstrated that the usual rules don?t apply if one follows the simple expediency of buying the loyalty of the politicians in power. That is what happened here, ja? If so, if my cynical outlook is correct (always bet on human greed (you seldom lose that way)) then the other cryptocurrency exchanges most likely did and are doing the same thing this Sam Bankan-Fried character perpetrated, for all the same reasons. This will lead eventually to the same outcome FTX demonstrated last week, for all the same reasons. > > Hey cool, we can make money short-selling all the remaining cryptocurrency exchanges. It?s all good, just so long as I personally make a buttload of money on it. Otherwise not. If I personally lose money then it?s unacceptable! It?s unethical, immoral, I tells ya! Aughta be illegal! I?ll call my congressman. Oh wait, retract, she?s on the payroll. > > Giovanni, I hope there is a flaw in my reasoning, and the FTX effect doesn?t apply to all existing cryptocurrency exchanges, for if it does, they will go down in a chain reaction like a row of dominoes, and we will be back to where cryptocurrency has no convenient safe secure way to trade back and forth between fiat and digital currency. I get the feeling those two currency systems really just need to find a way to work together, to coexist peacefully, in parallel. One big bridge between the two just collapsed and now we are questioning the structural soundness of the rest of them. > > spike > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 10:03:19 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 10:03:19 +0000 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Nov 2022 at 01:08, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat wrote: > > > It remains a fact that if you wanted to quickly transfer 1 M dollars for BTC to another country in particular it would be one of the fastest, cheapest and secure ways to do it with BTC. > > Giovanni > _______________________________________________ Money transfer scams are now a big problem for banks. Ordinary electronic banking makes it too easy for scammers to persuade people to move money to another account for 'security' reasons. Banks are continually warning customers about this fraud. If I had a million dollars in an account, I would much prefer that there were quite a lot of admin obstacles in the way before I could transfer the money to another account. Especially to an account in a foreign country where retrieving the money is likely to be impossible. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 22 14:00:44 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 06:00:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009901d8fe7a$d192e580$74b8b080$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do Spike, >?Why California or any state would continue to accept dollars for taxes if it becomes worthless through inflation?... It was by intentional and careful design Giovanni. The state constitution was specifically written to protect long time homeowners and landowners some of whom are on fixed pensions enumerated in dollars. As inflation was already eating away at the value of their pensions, people who had been on a property for generations were being presented with tax bills they couldn?t pay, including indigenous people whose families predated the California government. Governor Jerry Brown in the 1970s realized that wasn?t right. So? he and the sympathetic legislature baked into the California constitution protections for those long time California landholder and homeowners. If these people are still living on a 70s style pension, in that home, they can still make it easily by renting a piece of it to someone at modern prices, which will cover the property tax, the utility bills, the grocery bills, the medical insurance. I see evidence of it all over my own neighborhood where homeowners have converted garages to apartments and now rent those out for enough to cover expenses. That rent goes up with inflation. One has the option under Prop 13 to pass the home down to the next generation, who then keep the old tax structure, allowing that generation to live off the rent from the garage, probably rented to some hot-ass engineer working up at Tesla. >?Romans were in the same situation at one point and they refused to accept their own currency to pay taxes, they wanted pure gold or labor in kind? Romans had more options than the California state government, which may not demand any other currency for taxes other than US currency. To change that would require a change in the state constitution, which by design is very difficult to do: it requires 2/3 vote of both chambers, which hasn?t happened since I can recall. I consider it extremely unlikely that voters or the legislature dependent on those voters, would agree to what would be a huge tax increase on all long-time homeowners. On the flip side, the companies which pay pensions cannot be obligated to pay those with any other currency besides US tender. Conclusion: US notes will be with us for as long as the California constitution is there, which I predict is a long damn time. >?It was a sign the end was near for such an Empire. History is repeating again? Giovanni I think not, for California still has new vigorous businesses such as Tesla coming to town. It also benefits from a lotta lotta stinkin rich Taiwanese and Indian people buying homes here. I do not think California is going to go broke anytime soon. However? you do raise an interesting question. The tax basis is set by the sale price. What if someone buys a home with BtC. They need to agree with the state somehow on what was the price of that home. In any case, back in the 70s the state government knew eventually there would be serious challenges to Prop 13 so they put all the guardrails in place at the time, which have been challenged repeatedly, such as the rule that requires a 2/3 vote of both legislatures to change the constitution. That rule (which is also in the constitution) was challenged, but the court ruled that changing the 2/3 requirement required a 2/3 vote of both chambers. So they tried to change that rule, but the court realized that changing the 2/3 vote rule to change the 2/3 vote rule required 2/3 vote. That?s the rule. Now? Sacramento must live with the consequences. That constitution will not change. There is a bright side to it: state governments must balance their books. The Fed has the option to just borrow until no one will lend it real money for their fake money. States cannot do that. So? my conclusion is that all the real heavy lifting in government should be done at the state level, with the fed having only a few clearly defined responsibilities, such as forming a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, that sorta thing. The rest of it: state level. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue Nov 22 17:01:08 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 17:01:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <009901d8fe7a$d192e580$74b8b080$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> <009901d8fe7a$d192e580$74b8b080$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: California may not be headed for bankruptcy soon but the budget is looking bad going forward: California Heads for a Budget Crunch The state that relies on the rich for revenue now faces a $25 billion shortfall. California Heads for a Budget Crunch - WSJ [https://images.wsj.net/im-670482/social] Opinion | California Heads for a Budget Crunch The state that relies on the rich for revenue now faces a $25 billion shortfall. www.wsj.com Democrats in Sacramento last month sent $10 billion in direct payments to voters. Please don?t call them bribes. But with the election past, the state Legislative Analyst?s Office (LAO) last week broke the bad news that the state government now faces a $25 billion shortfall next year?assuming there isn?t a recession. California?s steeply progressive income tax makes it heavily dependent on the income, and especially the capital gains, of high earners. The top 0.5% of taxpayers pay 40% of state income tax. Tax revenue surged in the pandemic as the Federal Reserve?s loose monetary policies inflated asset values. Many tech workers cashed out stock options. Surging capital gains and a gusher of federal pandemic relief contributed to a $97 billion budget surplus in this fiscal year and $76 billion a year earlier. As usual, Democrats spent like this would never end. But stock values, especially of high-flying tech companies, have crashed since the Fed began tightening more aggressively this year. Silicon Valley companies are laying off workers. So little surprise, the state budget analyst now forecasts a $25 billion hole in the next fiscal year, which it says ?understates the actual budget problem in inflation-adjusted terms? because it didn?t adjust many spending programs for inflation. ?Assuming the Legislature wanted to maintain its current level of services, additional spending would be necessary,? the LAO says. That?s a more than fair assumption. Government unions and liberal interest groups scream about budget ?cuts? whenever spending doesn?t grow as fast as inflation. The LAO also assumes that ?the Legislature enacts no new policies over the period.? What are the chances of that with Gov. Gavin Newsom preparing to run for President in 2024? Oh, and another caveat: The LAO forecast doesn?t account for a potential U.S. recession, in which case ?revenues could be $30 billion to $50 billion below our revenue outlook in the budget window,? the analyst warns. That means the state could be staring at a $75 billion budget deficit next year. ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of spike jones via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 7:00 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do ?> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do Spike, >?Why California or any state would continue to accept dollars for taxes if it becomes worthless through inflation?... It was by intentional and careful design Giovanni. The state constitution was specifically written to protect long time homeowners and landowners some of whom are on fixed pensions enumerated in dollars. As inflation was already eating away at the value of their pensions, people who had been on a property for generations were being presented with tax bills they couldn?t pay, including indigenous people whose families predated the California government. Governor Jerry Brown in the 1970s realized that wasn?t right. So? he and the sympathetic legislature baked into the California constitution protections for those long time California landholder and homeowners. If these people are still living on a 70s style pension, in that home, they can still make it easily by renting a piece of it to someone at modern prices, which will cover the property tax, the utility bills, the grocery bills, the medical insurance. I see evidence of it all over my own neighborhood where homeowners have converted garages to apartments and now rent those out for enough to cover expenses. That rent goes up with inflation. One has the option under Prop 13 to pass the home down to the next generation, who then keep the old tax structure, allowing that generation to live off the rent from the garage, probably rented to some hot-ass engineer working up at Tesla. >?Romans were in the same situation at one point and they refused to accept their own currency to pay taxes, they wanted pure gold or labor in kind? Romans had more options than the California state government, which may not demand any other currency for taxes other than US currency. To change that would require a change in the state constitution, which by design is very difficult to do: it requires 2/3 vote of both chambers, which hasn?t happened since I can recall. I consider it extremely unlikely that voters or the legislature dependent on those voters, would agree to what would be a huge tax increase on all long-time homeowners. On the flip side, the companies which pay pensions cannot be obligated to pay those with any other currency besides US tender. Conclusion: US notes will be with us for as long as the California constitution is there, which I predict is a long damn time. >?It was a sign the end was near for such an Empire. History is repeating again? Giovanni I think not, for California still has new vigorous businesses such as Tesla coming to town. It also benefits from a lotta lotta stinkin rich Taiwanese and Indian people buying homes here. I do not think California is going to go broke anytime soon. However? you do raise an interesting question. The tax basis is set by the sale price. What if someone buys a home with BtC. They need to agree with the state somehow on what was the price of that home. In any case, back in the 70s the state government knew eventually there would be serious challenges to Prop 13 so they put all the guardrails in place at the time, which have been challenged repeatedly, such as the rule that requires a 2/3 vote of both legislatures to change the constitution. That rule (which is also in the constitution) was challenged, but the court ruled that changing the 2/3 requirement required a 2/3 vote of both chambers. So they tried to change that rule, but the court realized that changing the 2/3 vote rule to change the 2/3 vote rule required 2/3 vote. That?s the rule. Now? Sacramento must live with the consequences. That constitution will not change. There is a bright side to it: state governments must balance their books. The Fed has the option to just borrow until no one will lend it real money for their fake money. States cannot do that. So? my conclusion is that all the real heavy lifting in government should be done at the state level, with the fed having only a few clearly defined responsibilities, such as forming a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, that sorta thing. The rest of it: state level. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 18:00:02 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 10:00:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] AI does yet another game Message-ID: https://www.science.org/content/article/ai-learns-art-diplomacy-game How long until we go from this to having battlefield advisors helping lieutenants and captains real time? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 23 01:08:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 17:08:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> <009901d8fe7a$d192e580$74b8b08 0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008801d8fed8$209f6e20$61de4a60$@rainier66.com> From: Max More Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do California may not be headed for bankruptcy soon but the budget is looking bad going forward: California Heads for a Budget Crunch The state that relies on the rich for revenue now faces a $25 billion shortfall. California Heads for a Budget Crunch - WSJ Opinion | California Heads for a Budget Crunch The state that relies on the rich for revenue now faces a $25 billion shortfall. www.wsj.com This is good news for Californians. The size of the state government will need to be cut to meet budget constraints. We will have a demonstration that life goes on with less government. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 669 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 16:00:04 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 10:00:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <008801d8fed8$209f6e20$61de4a60$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> <008801d8fed8$209f6e20$61de4a60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Just finished 'How Innovation Works' by Matt Ridley (my very favorite science writer - extremely smart and well up on the research in detail). Every single inventor and innovator had to fight other claimants (and without exception there were a few or many), in one court after another, and government restrictions to be able to market his product. Often the reasons were stupid, such as the ban on tomatoes (I think it was something else but this will do) enforced by the clergy a couple of centuries ago because they were not mentioned in the Bible. The EU is now being stupid with GMO crops (as are other places in the world - Greenpeace has convinced an AFrican country or two not to grow them, while people there starve - you probably have read about the yellow rice mess). A lot of protectionism of existing companies - IOW a lot of payoffs of officials. Favorite new woman: Taylor Swift - if you saw her commercials you would agree - I have never seen a woman cuter than her. Have not heard her sing, of course. bill w Lawyers and lobbyists have had great influence in holding up progress. Excellent book ! bill w On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 7:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* Max More > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do > > > > California may not be headed for bankruptcy soon but the budget is looking > bad going forward: > > > California Heads for a Budget Crunch > The state that relies on the rich for revenue now faces a $25 billion > shortfall. > > California Heads for a Budget Crunch - WSJ > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > Opinion | California Heads for a Budget Crunch > > > The state that relies on the rich for revenue now faces a $25 billion > shortfall. > > www.wsj.com > > > > > > > > > > This is good news for Californians. The size of the state government will > need to be cut to meet budget constraints. We will have a demonstration > that life goes on with less government. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 669 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 23 16:35:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 08:35:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] fallout and female pop artists:: was: RE: lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> <008801d8fed8$209f6e20$61de4a60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00aa01d8ff59$a0ef01e0$e2cd05a0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do >?Just finished 'How Innovation Works' by Matt Ridley ? Cool thx for the reference. >? Often the reasons were stupid, such as the ban on tomatoes (I think it was something else but this will do) enforced by the clergy a couple of centuries ago because they were not mentioned in the Bible? On the contrary, me lad, they are mentioned, sorta kinda. In the book of James, chapter 3 verse 12, a guy comments: ?Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? Either a vine figs?? A tomato plant carries its seeds within the tomato itself, making the tomato itself a berry, the plant-world equivalent to? a? em? ripened ovary. Hmmm, perhaps the old time clergy had something there. But Billw, the real reason the clergy did crap like that is to establish absolute power over the proletariat, because they could read where a lotta their congregation could not. That ability established POWER, good old addictive centralized power, the drug which corrupted humans back in the old days just as much as it does today. >? - Greenpeace has convinced an AFrican country or two not to grow them? IOW a lot of payoffs of officials? It?s all about power, me lad. Centralized power addiction explains everything. The only cure I know of is to decentralize power at every opportunity. My fond hope is that the fallout of the FTX collapse will be to shine a light on the dangers of centralization of power in the monetary world as well as in politics. >?Favorite new woman: Taylor Swift - if you saw her commercials you would agree - I have never seen a woman cuter than her. Have not heard her sing, of course. bill w Billw, Where? have? you? been please? Taylor is not only a stunning beauty but a good singer. Not the Karen Carpenter brand of good, or Mary Travers good, or Julie Andrews good, or Judith Durham good, or even Cass Eliot good, but ahead of all those marvelous singers in beauty. I don?t care for her choice of material, but very talented is that one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Wed Nov 23 19:10:02 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 19:10:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] fallout and female pop artists:: was: RE: lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <00aa01d8ff59$a0ef01e0$e2cd05a0$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> <008801d8fed8$209f6e20$61de4a60$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d8ff59$a0ef01e0$e2cd05a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Talking of fig trees, it's always seemed odd to me that Jesus, the Son of God, cursed a fig tree because he falsely assumed it to be ripe based on its external appearance: (Matt. 21:18?22; Mark 11:12?14, 20?25). It's all leaves, no fruit. Jesus is mighty pissed. Jesus curses the tree, making it wither from the roots, never to yield fruit again. Apparently, this odd behavior from a divine being is to teach us to think about our own figs and to understand that fruitlessness leads to judgment. Who knew? ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of spike jones via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2022 9:35 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: [ExI] fallout and female pop artists:: was: RE: lotta splainin to do ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do >?Just finished 'How Innovation Works' by Matt Ridley ? Cool thx for the reference. >? Often the reasons were stupid, such as the ban on tomatoes (I think it was something else but this will do) enforced by the clergy a couple of centuries ago because they were not mentioned in the Bible? On the contrary, me lad, they are mentioned, sorta kinda. In the book of James, chapter 3 verse 12, a guy comments: ?Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? Either a vine figs?? A tomato plant carries its seeds within the tomato itself, making the tomato itself a berry, the plant-world equivalent to? a? em? ripened ovary. Hmmm, perhaps the old time clergy had something there. But Billw, the real reason the clergy did crap like that is to establish absolute power over the proletariat, because they could read where a lotta their congregation could not. That ability established POWER, good old addictive centralized power, the drug which corrupted humans back in the old days just as much as it does today. >? - Greenpeace has convinced an AFrican country or two not to grow them? IOW a lot of payoffs of officials? It?s all about power, me lad. Centralized power addiction explains everything. The only cure I know of is to decentralize power at every opportunity. My fond hope is that the fallout of the FTX collapse will be to shine a light on the dangers of centralization of power in the monetary world as well as in politics. >?Favorite new woman: Taylor Swift - if you saw her commercials you would agree - I have never seen a woman cuter than her. Have not heard her sing, of course. bill w Billw, Where? have? you? been please? Taylor is not only a stunning beauty but a good singer. Not the Karen Carpenter brand of good, or Mary Travers good, or Julie Andrews good, or Judith Durham good, or even Cass Eliot good, but ahead of all those marvelous singers in beauty. I don?t care for her choice of material, but very talented is that one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 19:49:17 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 13:49:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] fallout and female pop artists:: was: RE: lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <00aa01d8ff59$a0ef01e0$e2cd05a0$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> <008801d8fed8$209f6e20$61de4a60$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d8ff59$a0ef01e0$e2cd05a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't think I will be re-reading the Ridley book and will be sending it to you along with other one I promised - if you want it. How do you even know Swift if you don't have a TV? And does not having one deprive Isaac of learning about the contemporary culture? Swift - it's not only the pretty face, it's the expressions she makes. If in some other universe she pointed a finger at me, I'd go along meekly without question. Women never did know the power they had over me if they had been more open about their attraction to me. In one case I would certainly have married her if she had been open about it. One can be too conservative in letting new products go to market. Over the centuries those hidebound people have been responsible for millions of deaths and much suffering, and it's still going on. Yeah, it's about power and money - what isn't at a national level? The Renaissance did great things reducing the power of the church. If Jesus had come along seven hundred years ago he would have done much more than throw out the moneychangers. More needs doing. I have not thought about it enough to form an opinion, but Ridley makes a good case for changing the patent laws, which he says stifles innovation and invention. Ditto for intellectual property in general. But what happens to the poor writer, composer, who loses control over his creations as soon as he publishes them? Are we not ripping them off? My college students did not care about the artists when Napster was ripping off the song composers. I called it theft and they just shrugged. bill w On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 10:38 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] lotta splainin to do > > > > >?Just finished 'How Innovation Works' by Matt Ridley ? > > > > Cool thx for the reference. > > > > >? Often the reasons were stupid, such as the ban on tomatoes (I think it > was something else but this will do) enforced by the clergy a couple of > centuries ago because they were not mentioned in the Bible? > > > > On the contrary, me lad, they are mentioned, sorta kinda. In the book of > James, chapter 3 verse 12, a guy comments: ?Can the fig tree, my brethren, > bear olive berries? Either a vine figs?? > > > > A tomato plant carries its seeds within the tomato itself, making the > tomato itself a berry, the plant-world equivalent to? a? em? ripened > ovary. Hmmm, perhaps the old time clergy had something there. But Billw, > the real reason the clergy did crap like that is to establish absolute > power over the proletariat, because they could read where a lotta their > congregation could not. That ability established POWER, good old addictive > centralized power, the drug which corrupted humans back in the old days > just as much as it does today. > > > > >? - Greenpeace has convinced an AFrican country or two not to grow them? > IOW a lot of payoffs of officials? > > > > It?s all about power, me lad. Centralized power addiction explains > everything. The only cure I know of is to decentralize power at every > opportunity. My fond hope is that the fallout of the FTX collapse will be > to shine a light on the dangers of centralization of power in the monetary > world as well as in politics. > > > > >?Favorite new woman: Taylor Swift - if you saw her commercials you > would agree - I have never seen a woman cuter than her. Have not heard her > sing, of course. bill w > > > > Billw, Where? have? you? been please? Taylor is not only a stunning > beauty but a good singer. Not the Karen Carpenter brand of good, or Mary > Travers good, or Julie Andrews good, or Judith Durham good, or even Cass > Eliot good, but ahead of all those marvelous singers in beauty. I don?t > care for her choice of material, but very talented is that one. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 23 23:16:23 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 15:16:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] fallout and female pop artists:: was: RE: lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> <008801d8fed8$209f6e20$61de4a6 0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d8ff59$a0ef01e0$e2cd05a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008b01d8ff91$9b2b0be0$d18123a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, 23 November, 2022 11:49 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] fallout and female pop artists:: was: RE: lotta splainin to do I don't think I will be re-reading the Ridley book and will be sending it to you along with other one I promised - if you want it? Good chance Billw intended this as an offlist. Sure do Billw. I returned to the von Neumann book after being distracted by the excellent chapters on game theory. Fascinating subject. >?How do you even know Swift if you don't have a TV? The internet is better than TV. >? And does not having one deprive Isaac of learning about the contemporary culture?... It does that, but plenty of homes are similarly devoid of TV for the same reasons mine is: passive input of information without user control results in an I/O channel which is too slow, faaarrr too slow and too limited. Many people now in their teens, raised on video games, have not the attention span to suffer through any Hollywood movie made before about 1975: the pace is too slow. Demonstration: find and download an episode of Perry Mason. Excellent drama, well-written scripts. Waaaay too slow a pace for modern audiences. Demonstration: those of us who remember the first Star Wars in about the mid 70s recall how it felt like a roller coaster: the pace of the movie was just faster. OK view the first Star Wars now. Feels pretty normal, ja? >?Swift - it's not only the pretty face, it's the expressions she makes. If in some other universe she pointed a finger at me, I'd go along meekly without question. Women never did know the power they had over me if they had been more open about their attraction to me. In one case I would certainly have married her if she had been open about it? For most of us, it wouldn?t even require some other universe. This one will do. .>?The Renaissance did great things reducing the power of the church. If Jesus had come along seven hundred years ago he would have done much more than throw out the moneychangers. More needs doing? Every time I read that story, I feel sorry for the moneychangers. They were providing a perfectly legitimate service: Hey man, I need two lambs and five shekels to pay off a temple harlot and one of the lambs to repent afterwards, the other for lunch tomorrow. Can you break a sheep? >?I have not thought about it enough to form an opinion, but Ridley makes a good case for changing the patent laws, which he says stifles innovation and invention. Ditto for intellectual property in general? Ja the classic dilemma: information wants to be free, but content providers want to be paid. In civilizations where information really is free and has been for a long time, they have bred a society with a general scarcity of inventors. >?But what happens to the poor writer, composer, who loses control over his creations as soon as he publishes them? Are we not ripping them off?... Of course we are. Read on please. >?My college students did not care about the artists when Napster was ripping off the song composers. I called it theft and they just shrugged. ?bill w Billw, this is an important observation. Back in the days when you and I were younger than we are now, there were the big bands, the Dorsey Brothers, Glenn Miller, and so on, then the bands shrunk to save money. Then later, the Beatles and such as that only had four fabulous performers, but as content became freer, its value went down. So now most of the garbage on the radio is made by one guy who doesn?t even know how to sing, or if he does, he doesn?t actually demonstrate it. He just recites angry poetry in a foreign language. All this because your students ripped off actual artists, such as the Beatles, on Napster. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 09:44:53 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2022 10:44:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Some thoughts on Artemis, the return to the Moon & related things. Message-ID: Some thoughts on Artemis, the return to the Moon & related things. Turing Church newsletter. May Artemis be the dawn of a better space age! Also: farewell to legendary science fiction master Greg Bear. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/may-artemis-be-the-dawn-of-a-better From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 14:59:54 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2022 08:59:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] fallout and female pop artists:: was: RE: lotta splainin to do In-Reply-To: <008b01d8ff91$9b2b0be0$d18123a0$@rainier66.com> References: <20221119152009.Horde.t825pZSNJBOB_0E6pPxKw73@sollegro.com> <001101d8fc75$2baa3da0$82feb8e0$@rainier66.com> <003101d8fc87$df6ae9e0$9e40bda0$@rainier66.com> <003201d8fcee$ca048720$5e0d9560$@rainier66.com> <003f01d8fdc3$5dd96d10$198c4730$@rainier66.com> <00f301d8fe06$5912c1d0$0b384570$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d8ff59$a0ef01e0$e2cd05a0$@rainier66.com> <008b01d8ff91$9b2b0be0$d18123a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Before my physical therapist turns it off at my request, I hear country singers. I noticed for the first time that they don't sustain notes much at all, like all classical singers do very often. It's almost like Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady: there is some change of pitch in his voice but it's mostly talking, not singing. Probably a term for it, but not singspiel. Re tempo of tv shows: I think that when they got data showing how much money is spent, or spent on the behalf of teenagers and younger, TV lowered its targets to appeal to the younger set. All run by statistics. Of course TV has been dumbed down from the beginning - maybe they just lowered it more. You know, I spent a lot of time learning how to describe data and not nearly enough about how to interpret it. Why. How. These were very inadequately presented in my grad school. New on my lap is a book entitled The Book of Why, by Judea Pearl, a Turing Award winner. (interesting blurb from a guy described as Chief Internet Evangelist at Google (?)) Will let you know. Happy Thanksgiving to our greatest grandfathers/grandmothers - the cells which first learned how to divide and the one who incorporated bacteria, turning into mitochondria. And to you and your family. bill w In civilizations where information really is free and has been for a long time, they have bred a society with a general scarcity of inventors. That is covered in the book I am sending. Often amazing: how often people, like rulers, don't notice the success of a neighbor country. Openness is one of the prime things that international trade demonstrated when they began sharing things: inventions, new spices, recipes- everything. No trade no innovations. Isolated tribes are the same as they were tens of thousands of years ago. bill w On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 5:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 November, 2022 11:49 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] fallout and female pop artists:: was: RE: lotta > splainin to do > > > > I don't think I will be re-reading the Ridley book and will be sending it > to you along with other one I promised - if you want it? > > > > Good chance Billw intended this as an offlist. > > > > Sure do Billw. I returned to the von Neumann book after being distracted > by the excellent chapters on game theory. Fascinating subject. > > > > >?How do you even know Swift if you don't have a TV? > > > > The internet is better than TV. > > > > >? And does not having one deprive Isaac of learning about the > contemporary culture?... > > > > It does that, but plenty of homes are similarly devoid of TV for the same > reasons mine is: passive input of information without user control results > in an I/O channel which is too slow, faaarrr too slow and too limited. > Many people now in their teens, raised on video games, have not the > attention span to suffer through any Hollywood movie made before about > 1975: the pace is too slow. > > > > Demonstration: find and download an episode of Perry Mason. Excellent > drama, well-written scripts. Waaaay too slow a pace for modern audiences. > > > > Demonstration: those of us who remember the first Star Wars in about the > mid 70s recall how it felt like a roller coaster: the pace of the movie was > just faster. OK view the first Star Wars now. Feels pretty normal, ja? > > > > > > >?Swift - it's not only the pretty face, it's the expressions she makes. > If in some other universe she pointed a finger at me, I'd go along meekly > without question. Women never did know the power they had over me if they > had been more open about their attraction to me. In one case I would > certainly have married her if she had been open about it? > > > > For most of us, it wouldn?t even require some other universe. This one > will do. > > > > .>?The Renaissance did great things reducing the power of the church. If > Jesus had come along seven hundred years ago he would have done much more > than throw out the moneychangers. More needs doing? > > > > Every time I read that story, I feel sorry for the moneychangers. They > were providing a perfectly legitimate service: Hey man, I need two lambs > and five shekels to pay off a temple harlot and one of the lambs to repent > afterwards, the other for lunch tomorrow. Can you break a sheep? > > > > >?I have not thought about it enough to form an opinion, but Ridley makes > a good case for changing the patent laws, which he says stifles innovation > and invention. Ditto for intellectual property in general? > > > > Ja the classic dilemma: information wants to be free, but content > providers want to be paid. In civilizations where information really is > free and has been for a long time, they have bred a society with a general > scarcity of inventors. > > > > >?But what happens to the poor writer, composer, who loses control over > his creations as soon as he publishes them? Are we not ripping them off? > ... > > > > Of course we are. Read on please. > > > > >?My college students did not care about the artists when Napster was > ripping off the song composers. I called it theft and they just shrugged. > ?bill w > > > > Billw, this is an important observation. Back in the days when you and I > were younger than we are now, there were the big bands, the Dorsey > Brothers, Glenn Miller, and so on, then the bands shrunk to save money. > Then later, the Beatles and such as that only had four fabulous performers, > but as content became freer, its value went down. So now most of the > garbage on the radio is made by one guy who doesn?t even know how to sing, > or if he does, he doesn?t actually demonstrate it. He just recites angry > poetry in a foreign language. All this because your students ripped off > actual artists, such as the Beatles, on Napster. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 15:12:18 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2022 09:12:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] golf Message-ID: Is there a golfer on either list? Would like to discuss something with you. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Nov 24 18:24:36 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2022 10:24:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Figs and Pigs Message-ID: <20221124102436.Horde.SAKEeuU7v280Sey9UjJf8-a@sollegro.com> Quoting Max More: > > Talking of fig trees, it's always seemed odd to me that Jesus, the > Son of God, cursed a fig tree because he falsely assumed it to be > ripe based on its external appearance: (Matt. 21:18?22; Mark > 11:12?14, 20?25). It's all leaves, no fruit. Jesus is mighty pissed. > Jesus curses the tree, making it wither from the roots, never to > yield fruit again. > > Apparently, this odd behavior from a divine being is to teach us to > think about our own figs and to understand that fruitlessness leads > to judgment. Who knew? Lol. I agree Max. That was pretty odd behavior from a divine being. That reminds me of the time he came across a man (or two men according to Matthew) who were possessed by many demons who themselves Legion. (Matthew 8:28?34, Mark 5:1?20, Luke 8:26?39) The possessed man or men were nakedly running rampant around a grave yard acting crazy and pestering people when Jesus called out the demons responsible. The demons recognized him as the son of God and begged him not to banish them from the lands entirely, but instead transfer them into a herd of some 2000 swine that are minding their own business on a hillside. Jesus must have been feeling generous to demons that day (normally he just sends them packing) and let them relocate into the pigs whereupon the pigs made a mad dash over a steep embankment and into the sea. The pigs were tended by swineherds and when they saw what happened, they ran off to tell the townsfolk what had transpired. Now despite the fact that the locals didn't eat pork, the occupying Roman armies did. Needless to say the townsfolk were not thrilled at having to explain to their hungry Roman overlords what had happened to their pork supply, so the entire town turned out and begged Jesus to leave. It seems strange that Jesus would enable the death of a herd of pigs as a favor to some demons that he had just met. Considering his birth and his "away in a manger" days, you would think he would be a bit more sympathetic to the plight of farm animals. But there is no accounting for taste. Who knows? Maybe he had read an advance copy of Orwell's Animal Farm. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Thu Nov 24 20:03:08 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2022 12:03:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Figs and Pigs In-Reply-To: <20221124102436.Horde.SAKEeuU7v280Sey9UjJf8-a@sollegro.com> References: <20221124102436.Horde.SAKEeuU7v280Sey9UjJf8-a@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <008301d9003f$c63c4ac0$52b4e040$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat ... >...The possessed man or men were nakedly running rampant around a grave yard acting crazy and pestering people ... feeling generous to demons...let them relocate into the pigs whereupon the pigs made a mad dash over a steep embankment and into the sea...Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ I thought the same thing, Stuart what a total waste! What if... instead of making all that pig soup, the demons were instead sent into that convent in Salzburg Austria we saw in the Sound of Music? Perhaps you recall that Howdya Solve a Problem Like Maria scene? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-VRyQprlu8 There's the one mean nun, Sister Margaretta, OK forget her, but the others are cute as they can be, including in an oddly attractive way the aged Mother Superior. I would really like to see... some more of the pro-Maria nuns. The convent is far from the sea and already has a cemetery (where the Von Trapps hid from Rolf.) So we set up a bunch of video cameras, send to that convent those demons which cause the... possession(?) to take up cemetery streaking. The Nazi soldiers would be so confused, and perhaps even mildly aroused. Oh mercy that would be a hoot. That would surely make it on Austria's Funniest Home Videos. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 25 05:21:40 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:21:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Figs and Pigs In-Reply-To: <008301d9003f$c63c4ac0$52b4e040$@rainier66.com> References: <20221124102436.Horde.SAKEeuU7v280Sey9UjJf8-a@sollegro.com> <008301d9003f$c63c4ac0$52b4e040$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00cf01d9008d$ccfb4bb0$66f1e310$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com >... The Nazi soldiers would be so confused, and perhaps even mildly aroused. ...spike Herr Zeller: VHAT int zee HEIL??? From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 25 15:10:47 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 07:10:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again Message-ID: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> Do pardon my na?ve queries and thanks to all who have the patience to educate a well-meaning geezer. I was with my college buddies yesterday for our annual festival of gratitude for well pretty much everything that has happened to us. We have been a very fortunate generation. The subject of FTX came up. I am no hipster on that subject but I have friends who are (you) and they don?t. They are all geezers too. So we shared our misconceptions, and I came up with a new one, of which perhaps some young hipster among us can disabuse me. I offered a thought experiment where one imagines itself as a federal judge with a courtroom full of angry defrauded investors in FTX. Its Honor is about the age I am now. Its Honor listens to the plaintiffs talk about how they gave their money to this Bankman Fried who then stole their money. Its Honor asks the obvious: SBF stole your money? Plaintiffs: he stole our deposits, which weren?t actually in the form of cash fiat money. It: You deposited gold coins or physical assets? They: Well no, not exactly, but an equivalent. It: Do explain yourselves please. They: we bought the BitCoin from him with fiat money, he gave us the cryptokeys to the digital currency we bought. That part was fair game. Then we deposited the BitCoin with him. He told us he is not a banker, disregard his name, he is a digital currency exchange. He buys and sells digital currency, changes one to another only. It is an digital currency exchange. Bankman doesn?t operate a bank, man. It: Ah, so he didn?t actually steal your fiat currency. He stole your BitCoins? They: he went off and invested it in risky stuff, some safe bets such as American retail politicians, but that BitCoin is gone now. It: I see. So this Bankman Fried stole your em numbers? They: Our BitCoins, ja. It: So he stole intellectual property, so you should taking this up with the copyright office? They: Your Honor, he stole our MONEY! It: So you claim that your numbers are money? They: Ja. It: Can you buy groceries or pay or taxes with this digital money? They: Now one must exchange it for fiat money first. It: So this case is about prosecuting this sleazy wretched swindler for stealing these numbers you say are money? They: Ja. It: BANG {slams big wooden hammer on desk {why are they still doing that?}} Out of my courtroom, all of yas. Based on that thought experiment, I made a prediction for my geezer friends: Bankman Fried will not go to prison. No reasonable prosecutor will take this case (because she was probably on SBF?s payroll.) He invested in all the right retail politicians, they will say something analogous to our federal judge in the thought experiment above. My geezer friends then pointed out that Bankman Fried did not pay taxes on his numbers. I immediately responded: I retract and reverse previous prediction. They will roast his ass bigtime. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 17:08:47 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 17:08:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Nov 2022 at 15:14, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > My geezer friends then pointed out that Bankman Fried did not pay taxes on his? numbers. I immediately responded: I retract and reverse previous prediction. They will roast his ass bigtime. > > spike > _______________________________________________ I'm not sure what taxes you are referring to. Individuals may be liable for tax when trading crypto. i.e. exchanging between crypto and fiat or a different crypto. They may also be able to offset trading losses against gains. Just holding crypto doesn't incur a tax liability. A crypto exchange (like FTX) is not liable for customers' taxes. An exchange is a business and will prepare annual accounts and be taxed accordingly. If Fried *personally* owned and traded crypto then his personal tax affairs are the same as anybody else that traded crypto. My impression is that he was acting as owner of a business (FTX) and misusing company holdings of customer crypto. So I'm not sure where your suggestion about tax problems comes from. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 18:38:03 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 10:38:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 7:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It: You deposited gold coins or physical assets? > > > > They: Well no, not exactly, but an equivalent. > > > It: So this case is about prosecuting this sleazy wretched swindler for > stealing these numbers you say are money? > > > > They: Ja. > > > > It: BANG {slams big wooden hammer on desk {why are they still doing > that?}} Out of my courtroom, all of yas. > Doesn't follow. The numbers are themselves property - not "intellectual property", but ordinary property even if in a non-physical form. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 25 18:45:16 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 10:45:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002001d900fe$10269f00$3073dd00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, 25 November, 2022 9:09 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] bitcoin again On Fri, 25 Nov 2022 at 15:14, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > My geezer friends then pointed out that Bankman Fried did not pay taxes on his? numbers. I immediately responded: I retract and reverse previous prediction. They will roast his ass bigtime. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...I'm not sure what taxes you are referring to.... Nor am I, nor is the IRS. But the general rule is if anyone gets really rich without the IRS taking a huge bite of the winnings, the IRS is perfectly convinced a crime has taken place. Read on please. >...Individuals may be liable for tax when trading crypto... Just holding crypto doesn't incur a tax liability.... So I'm not sure where your suggestion about tax problems comes from. BillK _______________________________________________ OK do allow me to clarify BillK. The USA differs from most countries on the planet by being (at least in name) capitalist. This has consequences. Everything is for sale under capitalism, including government. We are being reminded of that fact nearly every day as we inch closer (over there you centimeter closer) to having all that information on a mysterious laptop computer released into the public domain and the internal tweets about proxy censorship being revealed by Mr. Musk. In all that, you will understand everything if you recognize the obvious: one can do pretty much whatever one wants if one carefully finds a way to cut the government in on the deal. If you supply the government with their generous slice of the pie, by whatever means, then no reasonable prosecutor will bother pressing charges. Cryptocurrency is one of those gray areas where Caesar demands his cut if you trade in Caesar's currency. But if someone steals your cryptocurrency, Caesar is unlikely to bother trying to catch whoever did it. Caesar gets the cut of the profits without taking on additional liability. Such a deal! For Caesar anyway. I do not know how Bankman Fried could have paid taxes. But the fact that he didn't means the IRS gets a crack at his ass (perhaps I need to rephrase that) using their rules of prosecution (which are much easier to use (plenty of arbitrary unaccountable prosecutorial power in the IRS)) at their discretion. Bankman Fried recognized the utility of buying loyalty in the retail politician market, and did so. Buying loyalty from the IRS is far far more difficult, for they are not running for office. He couldn't, so he didn't. My prediction: no reasonable prosecutor will bother with Bankman Fried in criminal court, but the IRS will find a way to end up with all his assets, then he will end up in jail anyway for violating their vague or non-existent rules. Oh I am so cynical. Save this prediction in a place where you can find it again. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 25 18:55:39 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 10:55:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002201d900ff$836253a0$8a26fae0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? It: BANG {slams big wooden hammer on desk {why are they still doing that?}} Out of my courtroom, all of yas. spike >?Doesn't follow. The numbers are themselves property - not "intellectual property", but ordinary property even if in a non-physical form? I agree Adrian, you know it, I know it, everyone here knows it. My prediction is that the criminal courts will not accept the liability of enforcing ownership law on cryptocurrency. I predict they will just tell crypto holders they are on their own: homemade currency, homemade security to protect it. I understand their logic: they already know the politicians are in on the crypto game because it provides a nice end run around individual limits to campaign donations. They won?t help. The IRS sees about 30% of all filthy lucre as their share of that filthy lucre, absolutely regardless of the mechanics of how it is traded. They will not approve of any alternative path around Caesar?s currency, which they already know how to deal with to get their cut. The IRS holds arbitrary unaccountable power with no elections to worry about, no Supreme Court hanging over their heads, nothing preventing them from prosecuting the hell outta anything or anyone who appears to be getting rich without somehow giving about 30% of that to them. I stand by my original prediction: Bankman Fried will not be prosecuted in criminal court (even though his crimes are perfectly obvious) but will be prosecuted by the IRS (even though his tax crimes are non-existent.) I have grown so cynical! I am so confident I intentionally omit the usual just sayin on that sayin. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 19:00:22 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 11:00:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <002201d900ff$836253a0$8a26fae0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <002201d900ff$836253a0$8a26fae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 10:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *?* > > It: BANG {slams big wooden hammer on desk {why are they still doing > that?}} Out of my courtroom, all of yas. spike > > > > >?Doesn't follow. The numbers are themselves property - not "intellectual > property", but ordinary property even if in a non-physical form? > > > > > > I agree Adrian, you know it, I know it, everyone here knows it. My > prediction is that the criminal courts will not accept the liability of > enforcing ownership law on cryptocurrency. I predict they will just tell > crypto holders they are on their own: homemade currency, homemade security > to protect it. > I disagree. Property is property, homemade or not. If the courts ruled otherwise, that opens way too many run-arounds of existing law. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 25 19:42:14 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 11:42:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <002201d900ff$836253a0$8a26fae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002301d90106$053f8220$0fbe8660$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat ? >?I agree Adrian, you know it, I know it, everyone here knows it. My prediction is that the criminal courts will not accept the liability of enforcing ownership law on cryptocurrency. I predict they will just tell crypto holders they are on their own: homemade currency, homemade security to protect it. >?I disagree. Property is property, homemade or not. >?If the courts ruled otherwise, that opens way too many run-arounds of existing law?. Adrian Adrian, do allow me to clarify. Technology changes quickly, but law changes only slowly, if at all. In the state you and I inhabit, theft of items valued below 950 bucks is no longer a felony. Homeless people may now legally smash your car windows to take a 20 dollar sweatshirt: they will treat the broken car window as vandalism, which is a misdemeanor and the theft as a misdemeanor, both of which are functionally legal for the homeless guy. Result: lots of broken car windows. If some judgment-proof homeless guy steals your 200 dollar computer with a hundred thousand bucks worth of cryptokeys stored on it, I predict the lawman will treat that as a 200 dollar theft and not even bother trying to get your 100k in BtC back. It will be considered a misdemeanor, which is functionally legal in our beleaguered crime-ridden state. Before we complain, consider that we did this to ourselves. I stand by my prediction: Bankman Fried will not be prosecuted under criminal law, but will be (somehow) prosecuted under tax law. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 20:10:36 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 14:10:36 -0600 Subject: [ExI] greatest spin of all time? Message-ID: Emperor Hirohito on the radio after the two bombs were dropped: "The war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage." from The Elements of Eloquence - Forsyth bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 21:17:37 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 08:17:37 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 at 02:12, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Do pardon my na?ve queries and thanks to all who have the patience to > educate a well-meaning geezer. > > > > I was with my college buddies yesterday for our annual festival of > gratitude for? well pretty much everything that has happened to us. We > have been a very fortunate generation. > > > > The subject of FTX came up. I am no hipster on that subject but I have > friends who are (you) and they don?t. They are all geezers too. So we > shared our misconceptions, and I came up with a new one, of which perhaps > some young hipster among us can disabuse me. > > > > I offered a thought experiment where one imagines itself as a federal > judge with a courtroom full of angry defrauded investors in FTX. Its Honor > is about the age I am now. Its Honor listens to the plaintiffs talk about > how they gave their money to this Bankman Fried who then stole their > money. > > > > Its Honor asks the obvious: SBF stole your money? > > > > Plaintiffs: he stole our deposits, which weren?t actually in the form of > cash fiat money. > > > > It: You deposited gold coins or physical assets? > > > > They: Well no, not exactly, but an equivalent. > > > > It: Do explain yourselves please. > > > > They: we bought the BitCoin from him with fiat money, he gave us the > cryptokeys to the digital currency we bought. That part was fair game. > Then we deposited the BitCoin with him. He told us he is not a banker, > disregard his name, he is a digital currency exchange. He buys and sells > digital currency, changes one to another only. It is an digital currency > exchange. Bankman doesn?t operate a bank, man. > > > > It: Ah, so he didn?t actually steal your fiat currency. He stole your > BitCoins? > > > > They: he went off and invested it in risky stuff, some safe bets such as > American retail politicians, but that BitCoin is gone now. > > > > It: I see. So? this Bankman Fried stole your?em? numbers? > > > > They: Our BitCoins, ja. > > > > It: So? he stole intellectual property, so you should taking this up with > the copyright office? > > > > They: Your Honor, he stole our MONEY! > > > > It: So? you claim that your numbers are? money? > > > > They: Ja. > > > > It: Can you buy groceries or pay or taxes with this digital money? > > > > They: Now one must exchange it for fiat money first. > > > > It: So this case is about prosecuting this sleazy wretched swindler for > stealing these numbers you say are money? > > > > They: Ja. > > > > It: BANG {slams big wooden hammer on desk {why are they still doing > that?}} Out of my courtroom, all of yas. > > > > Based on that thought experiment, I made a prediction for my geezer > friends: Bankman Fried will not go to prison. No reasonable prosecutor > will take this case (because she was probably on SBF?s payroll.) He > invested in all the right retail politicians, they will say something > analogous to our federal judge in the thought experiment above. > > > > My geezer friends then pointed out that Bankman Fried did not pay taxes on > his? numbers. I immediately responded: I retract and reverse previous > prediction. They will roast his ass bigtime. > It wasn?t just cryptocurrency you could keep on FTX. You could also deposit fiat currency, such as USD and EUR, and receive interest on it. There are also so-called stablecoins, a type of cryptocurrency locked to the value of fiat currency, the advantage of which is that they can be securely stored and transferred outside of the banking system. People left them in the exchange because they were trading, they were paid interest, it was easier, or it was felt to be safer, since if you self-custody crypto and lose you keys that?s the end of it. Governments around the world have had trouble deciding whether these things are currencies, securities or commodities for legal purposes. Taxation laws also differ. Most countries require that you pay taxes on capital gains, and a capital gain is said to be realised if you exchange crypto for fiat, crypto for crypto or crypto for goods. But Portugal, for example, has no capital gains tax on crypto. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 21:45:49 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 13:45:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <002301d90106$053f8220$0fbe8660$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <002201d900ff$836253a0$8a26fae0$@rainier66.com> <002301d90106$053f8220$0fbe8660$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 11:43 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In the state you and I inhabit, theft of items valued below 950 bucks is > no longer a felony. Homeless people may now legally smash your car windows > to take a 20 dollar sweatshirt: they will treat the broken car window as > vandalism, which is a misdemeanor and the theft as a misdemeanor, both of > which are functionally legal for the homeless guy. Result: lots of broken > car windows. > > > > If some judgment-proof homeless guy steals your 200 dollar computer with a > hundred thousand bucks worth of cryptokeys stored on it, I predict the > lawman will treat that as a 200 dollar theft and not even bother trying to > get your 100k in BtC back. It will be considered a misdemeanor, which is > functionally legal in our beleaguered crime-ridden state. Before we > complain, consider that we did this to ourselves. > And what if that computer contained the keys to your stock broker account, then helped themselves to all the stocks you bought? Those are assets which, while they do not have an exact value day-to-day, are recognized by the courts (precedent) as having non-zero value (so long as their price on the stock market stays above zero). Determining the exact value would require checking the stock markets, which requires the same trivial amount of effort as it takes to check crypto exchanges for the exact value of a given cryptocurrency. Crypto might not be like stocks in all respects, but if it's bought as an investment, it can be legally treated much the same - and will be, by law enforcement that wants to justify their arrests. If you were a cop and you had arrested that homeless person, would you rather report just a $200 misdemeanor or get credit for bringing in someone who had committed felony grand theft, just by filling in the paperwork noting the legally justifiable fair market value of the cryptocurrency, without any risk to your job (since, again, there is precedent)? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Nov 25 22:09:49 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 14:09:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <002201d900ff$836253a0$8a26fae0$@rainier66.com> <002301d90106$053f8220$0fbe8660$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001601d9011a$a32ad110$e9807330$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?Crypto might not be like stocks in all respects, but if it's bought as an investment, it can be legally treated much the same - and will be, by law enforcement that wants to justify their arrests? Adrian Thanks for that Adrian, for it illustrates the precise nature of the difference between cryptocurrency and stocks. It is long-established precedent that the government gets its take on stock transactions with cap gain taxes. While I agree that both are assets, and both have inherent value and are legitimately property, and one may be requires to pay taxes on cryptocurrency cap gains, it isn?t entirely clear the government is getting its cut from cryptocurrency transactions. If they aren?t getting their slice of the pie, they won?t lift a finger if someone devours your pie. I predict they will not take on the liability if they are not getting a cut of the action. I stand by my prediction: both the criminal court and the IRS will hold up Bankman Fried as an example: the criminal court will offer him as an example of what you can get away with if you are stealing only mere cryptocurrency, and the IRS will make an example of him on what happens if one fails to report transactions on one?s tax return and pay up. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 22:29:48 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 09:29:48 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <001601d9011a$a32ad110$e9807330$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <002201d900ff$836253a0$8a26fae0$@rainier66.com> <002301d90106$053f8220$0fbe8660$@rainier66.com> <001601d9011a$a32ad110$e9807330$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 at 09:11, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > > > >?Crypto might not be like stocks in all respects, but if it's bought as > an investment, it can be legally treated much the same - and will be, by > law enforcement that wants to justify their arrests? Adrian > > > > > > > > Thanks for that Adrian, for it illustrates the precise nature of the > difference between cryptocurrency and stocks. > > > > It is long-established precedent that the government gets its take on > stock transactions with cap gain taxes. While I agree that both are > assets, and both have inherent value and are legitimately property, and one > may be requires to pay taxes on cryptocurrency cap gains, it isn?t entirely > clear the government is getting its cut from cryptocurrency transactions. > If they aren?t getting their slice of the pie, they won?t lift a finger if > someone devours your pie. I predict they will not take on the liability if > they are not getting a cut of the action. > The way around taxes is to do person to person transactions (for goods, fiat or crypto) without involving a centralised exchange. This is equivalent to cash transactions, except that if the authorities can connect one crypto address to a particular individual, they can use easily find every other crypto address that individual has transacted with, and every crypto address each of those addresses have transacted with, and so on. These transactions are publicly available and can never be erased. So in this way crypto transactions are much easier to trace than cash is. > I stand by my prediction: both the criminal court and the IRS will hold up > Bankman Fried as an example: the criminal court will offer him as an > example of what you can get away with if you are stealing only mere > cryptocurrency, and the IRS will make an example of him on what happens if > one fails to report transactions on one?s tax return and pay up. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 23:47:36 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 15:47:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, There is a ton of evidence that the US threatens crypto as an asset not necessarily money but definitely valuable assets. You cannot pay taxes in crypto but you are charged taxes for gains obtained by trading crypto. So the judge in your example would be wrong in dismissing the case because crypto is not money. It is property, so if one steals property one commits a crime with criminal and civil consequences. There is ample precedence for this. IRS Notice 2014-21 guides individuals and businesses on the tax treatment of transactions using convertible virtual currencies. For federal tax purposes, virtual currency is treated as property. General tax principles applicable to property transactions apply to transactions using virtual currency. Also the Federal government by virtue of investigation and indictments declared illicit acquisitions from others THEFT so implicitly admitting crypto is valuable. Here one of the latest examples: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/07/feds-seize-3point36-billion-in-bitcoin-the-second-largest-recovery-so-far.html James Zhong of Gainesville, Georgia, pleaded guilty to wire fraud in the theft of about $3.36 billion in bitcoin stolen from the illegal Silk Road marketplace, which the FBI shut down in 2013. So the lawyers in the case you created should not mention BTC as a money but as property that can be stolen and therefore accusing Bankman to be a thief. Giovanni On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 7:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Do pardon my na?ve queries and thanks to all who have the patience to > educate a well-meaning geezer. > > > > I was with my college buddies yesterday for our annual festival of > gratitude for? well pretty much everything that has happened to us. We > have been a very fortunate generation. > > > > The subject of FTX came up. I am no hipster on that subject but I have > friends who are (you) and they don?t. They are all geezers too. So we > shared our misconceptions, and I came up with a new one, of which perhaps > some young hipster among us can disabuse me. > > > > I offered a thought experiment where one imagines itself as a federal > judge with a courtroom full of angry defrauded investors in FTX. Its Honor > is about the age I am now. Its Honor listens to the plaintiffs talk about > how they gave their money to this Bankman Fried who then stole their > money. > > > > Its Honor asks the obvious: SBF stole your money? > > > > Plaintiffs: he stole our deposits, which weren?t actually in the form of > cash fiat money. > > > > It: You deposited gold coins or physical assets? > > > > They: Well no, not exactly, but an equivalent. > > > > It: Do explain yourselves please. > > > > They: we bought the BitCoin from him with fiat money, he gave us the > cryptokeys to the digital currency we bought. That part was fair game. > Then we deposited the BitCoin with him. He told us he is not a banker, > disregard his name, he is a digital currency exchange. He buys and sells > digital currency, changes one to another only. It is an digital currency > exchange. Bankman doesn?t operate a bank, man. > > > > It: Ah, so he didn?t actually steal your fiat currency. He stole your > BitCoins? > > > > They: he went off and invested it in risky stuff, some safe bets such as > American retail politicians, but that BitCoin is gone now. > > > > It: I see. So? this Bankman Fried stole your?em? numbers? > > > > They: Our BitCoins, ja. > > > > It: So? he stole intellectual property, so you should taking this up with > the copyright office? > > > > They: Your Honor, he stole our MONEY! > > > > It: So? you claim that your numbers are? money? > > > > They: Ja. > > > > It: Can you buy groceries or pay or taxes with this digital money? > > > > They: Now one must exchange it for fiat money first. > > > > It: So this case is about prosecuting this sleazy wretched swindler for > stealing these numbers you say are money? > > > > They: Ja. > > > > It: BANG {slams big wooden hammer on desk {why are they still doing > that?}} Out of my courtroom, all of yas. > > > > Based on that thought experiment, I made a prediction for my geezer > friends: Bankman Fried will not go to prison. No reasonable prosecutor > will take this case (because she was probably on SBF?s payroll.) He > invested in all the right retail politicians, they will say something > analogous to our federal judge in the thought experiment above. > > > > My geezer friends then pointed out that Bankman Fried did not pay taxes on > his? numbers. I immediately responded: I retract and reverse previous > prediction. They will roast his ass bigtime. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 26 00:03:25 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 16:03:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] bitcoin again Spike, >?There is a ton of evidence that the US threatens crypto as an asset not necessarily money but definitely valuable assets? >?So the lawyers in the case you created should not mention BTC as a money but as property that can be stolen and therefore accusing Bankman to be a thief. Giovanni Ja thanks for the clarification Giovanni. Note that I am not saying what I think should happen, but rather what I think will happen. I think Bankman Fried is a thief but not necessarily a tax code violator. With that clarification, I stand with my prediction: Bankman Fried will not be prosecuted in criminal court but rather in tax court. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 00:19:44 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 11:19:44 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 at 11:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bitcoin again > > > > Spike, > > >?There is a ton of evidence that the US threatens crypto as an asset not > necessarily money but definitely valuable assets? > >?So the lawyers in the case you created should not mention BTC as a money > but as property that can be stolen and therefore accusing Bankman to be a > thief. > > Giovanni > > > > > Ja thanks for the clarification Giovanni. Note that I am not saying what > I think should happen, but rather what I think will happen. I think > Bankman Fried is a thief but not necessarily a tax code violator. With > that clarification, I stand with my prediction: Bankman Fried will not be > prosecuted in criminal court but rather in tax court. > Is there any evidence FTX did not pay the taxes they legally had to pay? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 00:30:11 2022 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 16:30:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The Fried Bankman has not been indicted yet but there are many calls for investigation from several countries. The main accusation is fraud. https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3748226-senate-democrats-call-for-criminal-investigation-of-ftx-founder-sam-bankman-fried/ Again given crypto is considered property stealing property via fraud is a crime. I mentioned taxes because it is the area where the US government expressed clearly its stance towards this type of asset. But this doesn't mean that he will be prosecuted because of some tax violation. On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 4:21 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 at 11:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bitcoin again >> >> >> >> Spike, >> >> >?There is a ton of evidence that the US threatens crypto as an asset not >> necessarily money but definitely valuable assets? >> >?So the lawyers in the case you created should not mention BTC as a >> money but as property that can be stolen and therefore accusing Bankman to >> be a thief. >> >> Giovanni >> >> >> >> >> Ja thanks for the clarification Giovanni. Note that I am not saying what >> I think should happen, but rather what I think will happen. I think >> Bankman Fried is a thief but not necessarily a tax code violator. With >> that clarification, I stand with my prediction: Bankman Fried will not be >> prosecuted in criminal court but rather in tax court. >> > Is there any evidence FTX did not pay the taxes they legally had to pay? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 26 00:33:19 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 16:33:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ?. >?Is there any evidence FTX did not pay the taxes they legally had to pay? -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis it isn?t clear to me they had any tax obligation. To have that, he would need actual profits. My theory is that Bankman Fried?s business had no traditional taxable earnings, but rather was a Ponzi scheme from the start. So? no profit, no tax bill. With that observation, my prediction is doubly cynical. I am suggesting Bankman Fried is an actual thief but not necessarily a tax code violator. Profit is legally-earned and is taxable. Stolen funds are tax-free. Further, I predict that the authorities won?t bother trying him in criminal court but the tax man will find a way to end up with any remaining assets they can get their grubby paws on. This is a full frontal attack by the US government on cryptocurrency exchanges, motivated by a fear that money is being made without their getting a cut of the action. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 03:26:29 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 14:26:29 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 at 11:37, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *?.* > > > > > > > > >?Is there any evidence FTX did not pay the taxes they legally had to pay? > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Stathis it isn?t clear to me they had any tax obligation. To have that, > he would need actual profits. My theory is that Bankman Fried?s business > had no traditional taxable earnings, but rather was a Ponzi scheme from the > start. So? no profit, no tax bill. > > > > With that observation, my prediction is doubly cynical. I am suggesting > Bankman Fried is an actual thief but not necessarily a tax code violator. > Profit is legally-earned and is taxable. Stolen funds are tax-free. > Further, I predict that the authorities won?t bother trying him in criminal > court but the tax man will find a way to end up with any remaining assets > they can get their grubby paws on. This is a full frontal attack by the US > government on cryptocurrency exchanges, motivated by a fear that money is > being made without their getting a cut of the action. > The deception was that customer funds were used to prop up a risky but supposedly separate part of the business, Alameda Research, by giving them loans using a token they had created as collateral, which amounts to giving unsecured loans, since if the business fails the token would be worthless. That may or may not classify as fraud, I?m sure there would be many be legal argument. An exchange that just holds customer assets and charges a fee for trading them (as most exchanges do) cannot really lose the assets unless an external party or insider actually takes them. Such exchanges only make profit from fees and pay tax on this profit, while the customers pay their own tax if they make a capital gain, which only occurs if they realise a capital gain. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 26 04:03:12 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 20:03:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ? >?The deception was that customer funds were used to prop up a risky but supposedly separate part of the business, Alameda Research?Such exchanges only make profit from fees and pay tax on this profit, while the customers pay their own tax if they make a capital gain, which only occurs if they realise a capital gain. -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, it is very clear to me that several of you guys, Adrian and others, know a lot more about this topic than I do. It is even more clear to me from what I have learned in this thread, I am confident in my prediction and observation: Bankman Fried committed fraud but not necessarily tax evasion, but ironically will not be charged in criminal court, rather by the IRS. All that is a backhanded way of saying that the US government will act in its own best interest by whatever means are available to it. The US government does not want a competing currency to exist. It would really prefer digital currency remain difficult to switch back and forth with US fiat currency, or if so, the IRS wants a cut of the action in both directions. The IRS will be fine with all this if they get a generous piece of the pie. The retail politicians are OK with defrauding investors, so long as the same retail politicians get their cut of the winnings. A prosecution of Bankman Fried in criminal court would be gummed up by politicians who benefitted from his theft of investor funds. A tax law prosecution would be based on the IRS? burning resentment that they didn?t get a cut of the action. Damn I have grown cynical in my old age. Billw, how can we not be cynical? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 05:14:37 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 16:14:37 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 at 15:04, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >?The deception was that customer funds were used to prop up a risky but > supposedly separate part of the business, Alameda Research?Such exchanges > only make profit from fees and pay tax on this profit, while the customers > pay their own tax if they make a capital gain, which only occurs if they > realise a capital gain. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Stathis, it is very clear to me that several of you guys, Adrian and > others, know a lot more about this topic than I do. It is even more clear > to me from what I have learned in this thread, I am confident in my > prediction and observation: Bankman Fried committed fraud but not > necessarily tax evasion, but ironically will not be charged in criminal > court, rather by the IRS. > > > > All that is a backhanded way of saying that the US government will act in > its own best interest by whatever means are available to it. The US > government does not want a competing currency to exist. It would really > prefer digital currency remain difficult to switch back and forth with US > fiat currency, or if so, the IRS wants a cut of the action in both > directions. The IRS will be fine with all this if they get a generous > piece of the pie. The retail politicians are OK with defrauding investors, > so long as the same retail politicians get their cut of the winnings. > > > > A prosecution of Bankman Fried in criminal court would be gummed up by > politicians who benefitted from his theft of investor funds. A tax law > prosecution would be based on the IRS? burning resentment that they didn?t > get a cut of the action. > > > > Damn I have grown cynical in my old age. Billw, how can we not be cynical? > I don?t really understand what you think the problem is with crypto and taxation. It?s not that difficult to monitor if someone has realised a capital gain from crypto. If you can figure out a way to reliably hide capital gains from large crypto transactions, please share it with us. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 26 05:39:57 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 21:39:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat ? >>?Damn I have grown cynical in my old age. Billw, how can we not be cynical? >?I don?t really understand what you think the problem is with crypto and taxation. It?s not that difficult to monitor if someone has realised a capital gain from crypto. If you can figure out a way to reliably hide capital gains from large crypto transactions, please share it with us. -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis I don?t think there is a problem with crypto and taxation, I just think taxes were not paid in this case. Because Bankman Fried didn?t actually make profits (as far as I can tell) he didn?t owe taxes. He stole investors? assets, but one doesn?t pay taxes on stolen money, ja? He invested shrewdly in retail politicians, which is why I don?t think he will be prosecuted in criminal court. He didn?t invest in IRS goodwill, because it isn?t at all clear how he could have done that without actual legal profit. In any case Stathis, I am OK with waiting to see how all this plays out. We should know in the next several weeks the legal consequences and what is likely to play out. About a year from now we will be able to read about the outcome in the history books. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 06:10:35 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 17:10:35 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 at 16:41, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *?* > > > > >>?Damn I have grown cynical in my old age. Billw, how can we not be > cynical? > > >?I don?t really understand what you think the problem is with crypto and > taxation. It?s not that difficult to monitor if someone has realised a > capital gain from crypto. If you can figure out a way to reliably hide > capital gains from large crypto transactions, please share it with us. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Stathis I don?t think there is a problem with crypto and taxation, I just > think taxes were not paid in this case. Because Bankman Fried didn?t > actually make profits (as far as I can tell) he didn?t owe taxes. He stole > investors? assets, but one doesn?t pay taxes on stolen money, ja? He > invested shrewdly in retail politicians, which is why I don?t think he will > be prosecuted in criminal court. He didn?t invest in IRS goodwill, because > it isn?t at all clear how he could have done that without actual legal > profit. > > > > In any case Stathis, I am OK with waiting to see how all this plays out. > We should know in the next several weeks the legal consequences and what is > likely to play out. About a year from now we will be able to read about > the outcome in the history books. > SBF?s model was that of tech startups burning up venture capital. The investors in such enterprises understand that they might make massive gains but also that more likely than not they will lose all of their money. If one investment makes a 10x return and nine investments are made rotten off, they break even. This isn?t a Ponzi or a fraud, it?s just the way it works. Also, the companies that fail don?t pay taxes, but the one that succeeds does, and brings other businesses and jobs to the area, enriching everyone. That?s the idea, anyway. In the case of FTX, there was possibly fraud in that it wasn?t just venture capital money that was wasted, it was also the money of customers who thought they were just using its exchange facility, which should have been segregated from the speculative side of the business. These customers, prior to the bankruptcy, would have been paying tax in their country of residence on any gains they made trading while the company was operational, even if FTX itself did not pay tax because they offset income against expenses. Most taxes paid trading shares or currencies are paid by the traders making gains, not by the platforms on which they trade. It is the same for crypto. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 26 15:16:40 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 07:16:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> >?SBF?s model was that of tech startups burning up venture capital. The investors in such enterprises understand that they might make massive gains but also that more likely than not they will lose all of their money? Stathis Ja Stathis, you might be right. But needle on my BS detector slammed against the peg on Sam Bankman-Fried for reasons having nothing to do with cryptocurrency, as it does with the guy in the article linked below, sent to me by a friend who knows I am interested in cryptocurrency exchanges. I don?t know this ?news? source so it might be a more subtle version of the Babylon Bee, a parody in which someone is making up stuff and having fun with us (while selling ad space for a living.) My same stodgy prejudices which stopped me from trusting Sam Bankman Fried is even more suspicious of this CZ Zhao character, because he just seems like a classic Bond villain who is still trying to pretend he is trying to save the world. If guys would just come right out and say they are going to make a bid to own all cryptocurrency exchanges, from which he plans to eventually own the planet, all while throwing in the occasional muwaaaahahahahaaa, perhaps a Doctor Evil threat or at least a Montgomery Burns finger tent affectation, I would trust the guy more. At least I would believe him. Plenty of people want to own the planet. In this article, CZ comes across as some wannabe white hat riding in to rescue the cryptocurrency exchange industry. Rescue it by buying it all perhaps. I am a total cryptocurrency exchange virgin, never owned their stock or any digital currency (even while recognizing the necessity of exchanges and the necessity of decentralized digital currency) so Stathis and the hipsters (hey I like the ring of that phrase) do feel free to offer your take on this article, which (guessing by their choice of advertising) might be a parody: "There Will Be Pain" - Binance's 'CZ' Floats Billion Dollar Bailout For Distressed Crypto | ZeroHedge spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 15:22:14 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 15:22:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 at 05:42, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Stathis I don?t think there is a problem with crypto and taxation, I just think taxes were not paid in this case. Because Bankman Fried didn?t actually make profits (as far as I can tell) he didn?t owe taxes. He stole investors? assets, but one doesn?t pay taxes on stolen money, ja? He invested shrewdly in retail politicians, which is why I don?t think he will be prosecuted in criminal court. He didn?t invest in IRS goodwill, because it isn?t at all clear how he could have done that without actual legal profit. > > In any case Stathis, I am OK with waiting to see how all this plays out. We should know in the next several weeks the legal consequences and what is likely to play out. About a year from now we will be able to read about the outcome in the history books. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Another point of view ----- Quotes: CryptoFanFic ? Thoughts on FTX Date: November 17, 2022 Author: Dexter K. White (Usage herein unless otherwise noted: bitcoin = bitcoin; crypto = everything else) A lot of people think crypto is worth something. A lot of people think bitcoin is worth something. Most people in each community think fiat currency has major problems. And they all believe in the cross fungibility of cryptocurrency and fiat. Which is why they are missing a huge point about FTX. The broad crypto community can?t even imagine the perspective of someone who thinks all of crypto (and BTC) is a bunch of bullshit. And it is from that perspective where our story is told. -------------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 26 16:37:30 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 08:37:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008101d901b5$60e04880$22a0d980$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ ... A lot of people think crypto is worth something. A lot of people think bitcoin is worth something. Most people in each community think fiat currency has major problems. And they all believe in the cross fungibility of cryptocurrency and fiat. Which is why they are missing a huge point about FTX. The broad crypto community can?t even imagine the perspective of someone who thinks all of crypto (and BTC) is a bunch of bullshit. And it is from that perspective where our story is told. -------------------- BillK _______________________________________________ Cool, cryptocurrency poetry. For those in a hurry, that last paragraph down there is the punchline. BillK, more than twenty five years ago on this forum (I think it was about 1996 to about 1998 or so) I was doing Prime 95. I introduced the notion in a math subgroup on ExI-chat that any prole could set up an arbitrary number of idle computers to run background processes using free public domain software developed by Prime95, which could discover a Mersenne prime, which would enable the discoverer to go on the Mersenne Prime forum and offer the number for sale. She could write up a contract, get a third party to hold the money, tell the buyer the number, the buyer verifies the number, reports it not to PrimeNet but to a science journal. Then... Prime95 reads that, verifies, the buyer's name goes in the record book forever as having discovered that number. It doesn't matter if the seller writes her memoirs about discovering and selling her Mersenne prime. Hal Finney did his Hal magic: he Finneyed the idea into applying blockchain to allow a number with inherent value (such as a record prime number) to be subdivided, bought and sold. Anyone who watched all that knows that a number can have inherent value IF... and only if... IFF... there is some kind of control over the quantity of those numbers. I argued at the time using paintings. Consider a list of investment quality painters or artists: Rembrandt, Picasso, Warhol, Biden, Van Gogh, that Italian feller what's his name, Michael Angelo I think. Look at that list and tell me which one doesn't belong, even though his paintings are selling for a cool fortch? Ja, the one who is still living, because the quantity is arbitrary. The others we know exactly how much of their art will ever ever ever be produced. Fiat currency is based on kind of a promise that the government issuing that currency will limit its production, but that promise can always be broken, as we saw in Zimbabwe and Venezuela. Now... we see that the USA and Russia are in a position where they will likely need to spin out arbitrary quantities of their currencies in order to meet their obligations. >From that, I would argue that the inherent value of cryptocurrency is in the control of quantity. It doesn't matter what is behind it, for we saw in the painting example, the only thing backing those paintings is a piece of canvas. Hal Finneyed that notion to BitCoin (I am to this day convinced he was a co-inventor of that.) I agree it has inherent value. I agree that the exchanges have inherent value. I agree that governments will fight it and try to introduce their own, but every time they do introduce their own, every government which attempts it will take away two critical aspects of cryptocurrency: the possibility of secret transactions and the solid as a law of nature guarantee of control of supply. I predict, based on the above history and reasoning, that any government which produces any cryptocurrency or backs any cryptocurrency or that exchanges cryptocurrency will create the currency and do the exchanges in such a way that that government can track all transactions and can produce that cryptocurrency arbitrary quantities, which it then owns, to meet its own needs. I further predict that all governments which create cryptocurrency will fight against its competitors in that market. My grim predictions on FTX and Sam Bankman Fried are based on the reasoning above. Nothing I have read on this forum dissuades me in the least. I believe we are saying the same thing really, just with different takes on it. spike From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 21:42:09 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 08:42:09 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 02:18, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > >?SBF?s model was that of tech startups burning up venture capital. The > investors in such enterprises understand that they might make massive gains > but also that more likely than not they will lose all of their money? > Stathis > > > > Ja Stathis, you might be right. But needle on my BS detector slammed > against the peg on Sam Bankman-Fried for reasons having nothing to do with > cryptocurrency, as it does with the guy in the article linked below, sent > to me by a friend who knows I am interested in cryptocurrency exchanges. I > don?t know this ?news? source so it might be a more subtle version of the > Babylon Bee, a parody in which someone is making up stuff and having fun > with us (while selling ad space for a living.) > > > > My same stodgy prejudices which stopped me from trusting Sam Bankman Fried > is even more suspicious of this CZ Zhao character, because he just seems > like a classic Bond villain who is still trying to pretend he is trying to > save the world. If guys would just come right out and say they are going > to make a bid to own all cryptocurrency exchanges, from which he plans to > eventually own the planet, all while throwing in the occasional > muwaaaahahahahaaa, perhaps a Doctor Evil threat or at least a Montgomery > Burns finger tent affectation, I would trust the guy more. At least I > would believe him. Plenty of people want to own the planet. > > > > In this article, CZ comes across as some wannabe white hat riding in to > rescue the cryptocurrency exchange industry. Rescue it by buying it all > perhaps. > > > > I am a total cryptocurrency exchange virgin, never owned their stock or > any digital currency (even while recognizing the necessity of exchanges and > the necessity of decentralized digital currency) so Stathis and the > hipsters (hey I like the ring of that phrase) do feel free to offer your > take on this article, which (guessing by their choice of advertising) might > be a parody: > > > > "There Will Be Pain" - Binance's 'CZ' Floats Billion Dollar Bailout For > Distressed Crypto | ZeroHedge > > A few months ago SBF was saying much the same things: crypto lending services were in trouble, but FTX was solid, overflowing with money, and would save the crypto world. It turns out that the reason he was saying these things was that he knew FTX was in trouble and wanted to boost confidence so that the value of the FTT token securing loans would be maintained, customers would not withdraw their funds and maybe more VC investors would invest in the company. It was working until CZ decided to publicly declare that he would crash the price of FTT he held (which was a lot, from a previous deal with FTX) by dumping it all. > > > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 26 21:53:59 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 13:53:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003601d901e1$9792f400$c6b8dc00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] bitcoin again On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 02:18, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: ? >?I am a total cryptocurrency exchange virgin? do feel free to offer your take on this article, which (guessing by their choice of advertising) might be a parody: "There Will Be Pain" - Binance's 'CZ' Floats Billion Dollar Bailout For Distressed Crypto | ZeroHedge >?A few months ago SBF was saying much the same things: crypto lending services were in trouble, but FTX was solid, overflowing with money, and would save the crypto world. It turns out that the reason he was saying these things was that he knew FTX was in trouble and wanted to boost confidence so that the value of the FTT token securing loans would be maintained, customers would not withdraw their funds and maybe more VC investors would invest in the company. It was working until CZ decided to publicly declare that he would crash the price of FTT he held (which was a lot, from a previous deal with FTX) by dumping it all. -- Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, do forgive my tyro queries. Did you mean that CZ intentionally crashed the FTX token even though he held a lot of them, reducing his own net worth, in an effort to intentionally wreck a competitor? Perhaps this was an attempt to buy the tattered remains of FTX for a song? Seems self-defeating, but perhaps effective. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 22:22:54 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 09:22:54 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: <003601d901e1$9792f400$c6b8dc00$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> <003601d901e1$9792f400$c6b8dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 08:55, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bitcoin again > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 02:18, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > >?I am a total cryptocurrency exchange virgin? do feel free to offer your > take on this article, which (guessing by their choice of advertising) might > be a parody: > > "There Will Be Pain" - Binance's 'CZ' Floats Billion Dollar Bailout For > Distressed Crypto | ZeroHedge > > > >?A few months ago SBF was saying much the same things: crypto lending > services were in trouble, but FTX was solid, overflowing with money, and > would save the crypto world. It turns out that the reason he was saying > these things was that he knew FTX was in trouble and wanted to boost > confidence so that the value of the FTT token securing loans would be > maintained, customers would not withdraw their funds and maybe more VC > investors would invest in the company. It was working until CZ decided to > publicly declare that he would crash the price of FTT he held (which was a > lot, from a previous deal with FTX) by dumping it all. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Stathis, do forgive my tyro queries. Did you mean that CZ intentionally > crashed the FTX token even though he held a lot of them, reducing his own > net worth, in an effort to intentionally wreck a competitor? Perhaps this > was an attempt to buy the tattered remains of FTX for a song? > > > > Seems self-defeating, but perhaps effective. > CZ had over $500 million worth of FTT tokens, and he announced on Twitter that he would sell them. The CEO of Alameda Research offered to buy all these tokens at a fixed price (around the market price prior to the tweet), but CZ said no: he was going to sell them on-market. At the same time, it came to light that these tokens were being used by FTX as collateral for loans. Normal practice in the crypto world is to use coins such as BTC or ETH as collateral for fiat loans, which are liquidated if the borrower defaults or if the value of the collateral drops below an agreed amount. But using a coin that you created, the value of which depends on the financial health of your company, to secure loans to yourself, can obviously lead to trouble. CZ saw an opportunity to give the toppling edifice a push, bringing it all down. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 22:41:51 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 17:41:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> <003601d901e1$9792f400$c6b8dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: SBF also made a lot of enemies in the community with his self interested lobbying and money laundering operation for the DNC. He did not exude the typical anarcho capitalist vibe that powers the majority of the space. I'd also point out what he did was fraud, plain and simple. He's crypto's equivalent of Maddoff. It just so happens he did it with crypto. If he doesn't end up in jail, it will only be due to the fact that the DNC doesn't want its dirty laundry aired in discovery/at trial. He was also pals with the head of the SEC, Gensler, who is anti all crypto outside of apparently FTX. On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 5:23 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 08:55, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bitcoin again >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 02:18, spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> >> >?I am a total cryptocurrency exchange virgin? do feel free to offer your >> take on this article, which (guessing by their choice of advertising) might >> be a parody: >> >> "There Will Be Pain" - Binance's 'CZ' Floats Billion Dollar Bailout For >> Distressed Crypto | ZeroHedge >> >> >> >?A few months ago SBF was saying much the same things: crypto lending >> services were in trouble, but FTX was solid, overflowing with money, and >> would save the crypto world. It turns out that the reason he was saying >> these things was that he knew FTX was in trouble and wanted to boost >> confidence so that the value of the FTT token securing loans would be >> maintained, customers would not withdraw their funds and maybe more VC >> investors would invest in the company. It was working until CZ decided to >> publicly declare that he would crash the price of FTT he held (which was a >> lot, from a previous deal with FTX) by dumping it all. >> >> -- >> >> Stathis Papaioannou >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Stathis, do forgive my tyro queries. Did you mean that CZ intentionally >> crashed the FTX token even though he held a lot of them, reducing his own >> net worth, in an effort to intentionally wreck a competitor? Perhaps this >> was an attempt to buy the tattered remains of FTX for a song? >> >> >> >> Seems self-defeating, but perhaps effective. >> > CZ had over $500 million worth of FTT tokens, and he announced on Twitter > that he would sell them. The CEO of Alameda Research offered to buy all > these tokens at a fixed price (around the market price prior to the tweet), > but CZ said no: he was going to sell them on-market. At the same time, it > came to light that these tokens were being used by FTX as collateral for > loans. Normal practice in the crypto world is to use coins such as BTC or > ETH as collateral for fiat loans, which are liquidated if the borrower > defaults or if the value of the collateral drops below an agreed amount. > But using a coin that you created, the value of which depends on the > financial health of your company, to secure loans to yourself, can > obviously lead to trouble. CZ saw an opportunity to give the toppling > edifice a push, bringing it all down. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 22:55:38 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 09:55:38 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> <003601d901e1$9792f400$c6b8dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 09:43, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > SBF also made a lot of enemies in the community with his self interested > lobbying and money laundering operation for the DNC. He did not exude the > typical anarcho capitalist vibe that powers the majority of the space. > > I'd also point out what he did was fraud, plain and simple. He's > crypto's equivalent of Maddoff. It just so happens he did it with crypto. > > If he doesn't end up in jail, it will only be due to the fact that the DNC > doesn't want its dirty laundry aired in discovery/at trial. He was also > pals with the head of the SEC, Gensler, who is anti all crypto outside of > apparently FTX. > The likely outcome of all this is to push crypto to crypto trading and crypto lending to decentralised finance (using smart contracts), with centralised exchanges confining themselves to (hopefully closely audited) crypto to fiat transactions. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Nov 26 23:03:00 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 15:03:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> <003601d901e1$9792f400$c6b8dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006201d901eb$3b69ebc0$b23dc340$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >? it came to light that these tokens were being used by FTX as collateral for loans. Normal practice in the crypto world is to use coins such as BTC or ETH as collateral for fiat loans, which are liquidated if the borrower defaults or if the value of the collateral drops below an agreed amount. But using a coin that you created, the value of which depends on the financial health of your company, to secure loans to yourself, can obviously lead to trouble. CZ saw an opportunity to give the toppling edifice a push, bringing it all down. -- Stathis Papaioannou WOWsers, thanks for that Stathis. The scheme sounds a lot like a private industry version of the US Government?s ?quantitative easing? whereby it offers its own debt as surety for further loans. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 23:26:54 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 18:26:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> <003601d901e1$9792f400$c6b8dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Since we're getting off to a slight side discussion, I would hope that this is the outcome. To his credit, the CEO of Kraken has said for years now to hold your own keys, despite running a CEX. I remain very concerned about the fallout of FTX damaging crypto policy in the US however. Additionally, while I initially brushed off second+ order effects from the FTX fiasco on other more well run CEXs, I apparently underestimated it as Kraken has paused to/from fiat transactions for one EU bank that was collateral damage. The issue is fully on the bank side, but it was still wrought by SBF's collapse. The other elephant in the room, for me, remains the centralized nature of stablecoins. USDC is very problematic and has shown a complete willingness to implement blacklisting when a government agency tells them to. USDT also blacklists. It will be interesting to see what happens with Maker, but I have major concerns with the "endgame proposal" that passed. I am fully aligned with Christensen?s concerns over black listing/centralization, but don't think a free floating "stable" coin is the answer. The world traffics in fiat; there needs to be a reliable way in cryptoland to protect principal and know that you can get 1:1 fiat. I had hoped UST might be the answer, but I was fooled very badly there. Unfortunately, it is very likely that any entity that holds enough fiat reserves to maintain a peg is going to be heavily regulated, making decentralization an extremely difficult problem to solve in stables. On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 5:56 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 09:43, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> SBF also made a lot of enemies in the community with his self interested >> lobbying and money laundering operation for the DNC. He did not exude the >> typical anarcho capitalist vibe that powers the majority of the space. >> >> I'd also point out what he did was fraud, plain and simple. He's >> crypto's equivalent of Maddoff. It just so happens he did it with crypto. >> >> If he doesn't end up in jail, it will only be due to the fact that the >> DNC doesn't want its dirty laundry aired in discovery/at trial. He was >> also pals with the head of the SEC, Gensler, who is anti all crypto outside >> of apparently FTX. >> > > The likely outcome of all this is to push crypto to crypto trading and > crypto lending to decentralised finance (using smart contracts), with > centralised exchanges confining themselves to (hopefully closely audited) > crypto to fiat transactions. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 00:18:51 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 11:18:51 +1100 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> <003601d901e1$9792f400$c6b8dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 10:28, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Since we're getting off to a slight side discussion, I would hope that > this is the outcome. To his credit, the CEO of Kraken has said for years > now to hold your own keys, despite running a CEX. > > I remain very concerned about the fallout of FTX damaging crypto policy in > the US however. Additionally, while I initially brushed off second+ order > effects from the FTX fiasco on other more well run CEXs, I apparently > underestimated it as Kraken has paused to/from fiat transactions for one EU > bank that was collateral damage. The issue is fully on the bank side, but > it was still wrought by SBF's collapse. > > The other elephant in the room, for me, remains the centralized nature of > stablecoins. USDC is very problematic and has shown a complete > willingness to implement blacklisting when a government agency tells them > to. USDT also blacklists. > > It will be interesting to see what happens with Maker, but I have major > concerns with the "endgame proposal" that passed. I am fully aligned > with Christensen?s concerns over black listing/centralization, but don't > think a free floating "stable" coin is the answer. The world traffics in > fiat; there needs to be a reliable way in cryptoland to protect principal > and know that you can get 1:1 fiat. > > I had hoped UST might be the answer, but I was fooled very badly there. > Unfortunately, it is very likely that any entity that holds enough fiat > reserves to maintain a peg is going to be heavily regulated, making > decentralization an extremely difficult problem to solve in stables. > Eventually central banks will issue their own digital currencies, and then there will be less utility for private stablecoins. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 27 05:05:35 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 21:05:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cloud streets Message-ID: <00f301d9021d$e2699e20$a73cda60$@rainier66.com> It's the craziest thing: I have always been one who looks up a lot. I don't mean look up stuff in online, ja I do that too. I mean go outside and look at the sky. After all these years, today was the first time I ever noticed these: The best part is I even figured out what causes them, before I looked it up online. Here ya go: https://earthsky.org/earth/what-are-cloud-streets/ Dang that is just wicked cool. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6861 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 08:33:06 2022 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 03:33:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin again In-Reply-To: References: <001401d900e0$1991cc40$4cb564c0$@rainier66.com> <005c01d9012a$81e4f3e0$85aedba0$@rainier66.com> <008301d9012e$af700da0$0e5028e0$@rainier66.com> <00cd01d9014c$01347e60$039d7b20$@rainier66.com> <018301d90159$855704d0$90050e70$@rainier66.com> <005e01d901aa$16845660$438d0320$@rainier66.com> <003601d901e1$9792f400$c6b8dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: When central banks issue their own digital currencies, unless there is an alternative in decentralized stable coins, it's game over on the dream of what could have been. CBDCs represent the death knell of the last remaining financial freedoms we have if there is no viable alternative in the cryptosphere. I have to disagree, there will be more utility for private stablecoins if CBDCs are the alternative, at least for those of us who see the possibility of what crypto COULD be. On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 7:20 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 at 10:28, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Since we're getting off to a slight side discussion, I would hope that >> this is the outcome. To his credit, the CEO of Kraken has said for years >> now to hold your own keys, despite running a CEX. >> >> I remain very concerned about the fallout of FTX damaging crypto policy >> in the US however. Additionally, while I initially brushed off >> second+ order effects from the FTX fiasco on other more well run CEXs, I >> apparently underestimated it as Kraken has paused to/from fiat transactions >> for one EU bank that was collateral damage. The issue is fully on the >> bank side, but it was still wrought by SBF's collapse. >> >> The other elephant in the room, for me, remains the centralized nature of >> stablecoins. USDC is very problematic and has shown a complete >> willingness to implement blacklisting when a government agency tells them >> to. USDT also blacklists. >> >> It will be interesting to see what happens with Maker, but I have major >> concerns with the "endgame proposal" that passed. I am fully aligned >> with Christensen?s concerns over black listing/centralization, but don't >> think a free floating "stable" coin is the answer. The world traffics in >> fiat; there needs to be a reliable way in cryptoland to protect principal >> and know that you can get 1:1 fiat. >> >> I had hoped UST might be the answer, but I was fooled very badly there. >> Unfortunately, it is very likely that any entity that holds enough fiat >> reserves to maintain a peg is going to be heavily regulated, making >> decentralization an extremely difficult problem to solve in stables. >> > > Eventually central banks will issue their own digital currencies, and then > there will be less utility for private stablecoins. > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 16:47:11 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 10:47:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] cloud streets In-Reply-To: <00f301d9021d$e2699e20$a73cda60$@rainier66.com> References: <00f301d9021d$e2699e20$a73cda60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Would Adam's ribs qualify as cloud boulevards? bill w On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 11:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > It?s the craziest thing: I have always been one who looks up a lot. I > don?t mean look up stuff in online, ja I do that too. I mean go outside > and look at the sky. After all these years, today was the first time I > ever noticed these: > > > > > > > > The best part is I even figured out what causes them, before I looked it > up online. Here ya go: > > > > https://earthsky.org/earth/what-are-cloud-streets/ > > > > Dang that is just wicked cool. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6861 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 16:57:15 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 10:57:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] bitcoin Message-ID: https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2022/11/27 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Nov 27 19:09:01 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 11:09:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] new career path... Message-ID: <00b301d90293$b64259b0$22c70d10$@rainier66.com> Hey cool, a new industry has just opened up which I think anyone here could pursue: an elite college deprogrammer! An article a friend sent me: >.New York City pharmaceutical heiress Annabella Rockwell is claiming that her mother paid a $300-a-day "deprogrammer" after believing her daughter had been "brainwashed" by attending an all-female elite liberal college that left the young woman "totally indoctrinated" and estranged from the parents who raised her. WOWsers, 300 bucks a day! I could sooooo deprogram that young scholar with a healthy dose of reality! Read on please: >."I left school very anxious, very nervous, very depressed and sad," Rockwell, now 29, recently told The New York Post. "I saw everything through the lens of oppression and bias and victimhood. I came to the school as someone who saw everyone equally. I left looking for injustice wherever I could and automatically assuming that all White men were sexist. My thoughts were no longer my own." Noooo problem me lass. I can help you again see everyone equally, which leads to a calm sense of gratitude for how damn good we have it in this weary old world today, better than it has ever been in humanity's long-suffering past: most people are doing pretty well for themselves, not that many who suffer from hunger, exposure or insufficient download speed. Some do still, but most have what we need to live a good life. >.Rockwell, a former competitive figure skater. Figure skater! That sport gives them such tight buns! I kid you not, google on "figure skaters" and hit images. Whaddya see please? I rest my case. I cheerfully offer a 10% deprogramming discount for figure skaters. >. who grew up on the Upper East Side., Well there ya go. Spend some time with those of us who grew up on the lower south side. Cured! We see everyone as equal down here. We all suck, of course, but equally so. We don't discriminate. >. told The Post that at first, she was elated to attend Mount Holyoke College - a $60,000-a-year women's institution. No my son, you will not convince them that you identify as a woman and go there, I don't care if it is a super target-rich environment with few competitors. That $60k a year business is right out of the question. >. in rural Massachusetts. Advice to high school seniors: beware of ANYTHING out in rural Massachusetts. That raises yellow flags in itself. This wouldn'ta happened had you gone to rural Texas or rural Florida. They don't do sexism or racism there. Well. a little sexism perhaps, but in a healthy fun way, not the depressing kind. It's really fun if you loosen up and allow yourself to enjoy life a bit. For instance, the cheerleaders are nearly all biologically female. One forgets there is a sporting event of some kind going on behind them. >.Unlike other first-year students, she said she did not participate in the "MoHo chop," an initiation ritual meant to shrug off gender roles by cutting one's hair. Ja, I don't recall any MoHo chops in the college I attended. People could still shrug off gender roles if they wished, but without the extreme measures. Suggested alternative: shrug off gender roles in such a way that is easily reversible, with clothing or costumes. Don't wreck your hair, because that takes a while to grow back if you get tired of the silliness, and surgery, forget it. Painful and costs money. >.By her junior year, however, Rockwell told the Post that she noticed a shift in herself after taking a Gender Studies class. Oh that whole Gender Studies business, we knew that was trouble the minute we heard it wasn't intended as a gag or self-parody. They really do have those classes. My advice is sincere my young college-bound friends: do your thing with clothing only, and most of all remember the song, play it often in your head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU Its my theme song since 1988. I love it! Adjusts one's attitude in a most healthy way. High school seniors, sing it early and often. You will have a lot more fun in college, a real university mostly paid for by the state. Mainstream is good, you don't need to attend these silly pretentious 60k institutions, you won't even need 300 dollar a day deprogrammers afterwards. But if you do need one, I am soooo here for yas, discount available to figure skaters. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 19:44:45 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 13:44:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] new career path... In-Reply-To: <00b301d90293$b64259b0$22c70d10$@rainier66.com> References: <00b301d90293$b64259b0$22c70d10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I gave a friend my copy of a Playboy issue that had photos of Katerina Witt nude. Sigh.....wow wow wow Youtube - try it - it's really hard to whistle in tune. Clipboard icon disappeared - spent 30 minutes online trying to find a way to see it - installed a new app and the icon is not to be found. Sigh..... bill w On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 1:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Hey cool, a new industry has just opened up which I think anyone here > could pursue: an elite college deprogrammer! > > > > An article a friend sent me: > > > > >?New York City pharmaceutical heiress Annabella Rockwell is claiming that > her mother paid a $300-a-day "deprogrammer" after believing her daughter > had been "brainwashed" by attending an all-female elite liberal college > that left the > young woman "totally indoctrinated" and estranged from the parents who > raised her. > > > > WOWsers, 300 bucks a day! I could sooooo deprogram that young scholar > with a healthy dose of reality! > > > > Read on please: > > > > >?"I left school very anxious, very nervous, very depressed and sad," > Rockwell, now 29, recently told The New York Post. "I saw everything > through the lens of oppression and bias and victimhood. I came to the > school as someone who saw everyone equally. I left looking for injustice > wherever I could and automatically assuming that all White men were sexist. > My thoughts were no longer my own." > > Noooo problem me lass. I can help you again see everyone equally, which > leads to a calm sense of gratitude for how damn good we have it in this > weary old world today, better than it has ever been in humanity?s > long-suffering past: most people are doing pretty well for themselves, not > that many who suffer from hunger, exposure or insufficient download speed. > Some do still, but most have what we need to live a good life. > > > > >?Rockwell, a former competitive figure skater? > > > > Figure skater! That sport gives them such tight buns! I kid you not, > google on ?figure skaters? and hit images. Whaddya see please? I rest my > case. I cheerfully offer a 10% deprogramming discount for figure skaters. > > > > >? who grew up on the Upper East Side?, > > > > > Well there ya go. Spend some time with those of us who grew up on the > lower south side. Cured! We see everyone as equal down here. We all > suck, of course, but equally so. We don?t discriminate. > > > > > > >? told The Post that at first, she was elated to attend Mount Holyoke > College ? a $60,000-a-year women?s institution? > > > > No my son, you will not convince them that you identify as a woman and go > there, I don?t care if it is a super target-rich environment with few > competitors. That $60k a year business is right out of the question. > > > > >? in rural Massachusetts? > > > > Advice to high school seniors: beware of ANYTHING out in rural > Massachusetts. That raises yellow flags in itself. This wouldn?ta > happened had you gone to rural Texas or rural Florida. They don?t do > sexism or racism there. Well? a little sexism perhaps, but in a healthy > fun way, not the depressing kind. > > > > It?s really fun if you loosen up and allow yourself to enjoy life a bit. > For instance, the cheerleaders are nearly all biologically female. One > forgets there is a sporting event of some kind going on behind them. > > > > >?Unlike other first-year students, she said she did not participate in > the "MoHo chop," an initiation ritual meant to shrug off gender roles by > cutting one's hair? > > Ja, I don?t recall any MoHo chops in the college I attended. People could > still shrug off gender roles if they wished, but without the extreme > measures. Suggested alternative: shrug off gender roles in such a way that > is easily reversible, with clothing or costumes. Don?t wreck your hair, > because that takes a while to grow back if you get tired of the silliness, > and surgery, forget it. Painful and costs money. > > > > > > >?By her junior year, however, Rockwell told the Post that she noticed a > shift in herself after taking a Gender Studies class? > > > > Oh that whole Gender Studies business, we knew that was trouble the minute > we heard it wasn?t intended as a gag or self-parody. They really do have > those classes. My advice is sincere my young college-bound friends: do > your thing with clothing only, and most of all remember the song, play it > often in your head: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU > > > > Its my theme song since 1988. I love it! Adjusts one?s attitude in a > most healthy way. High school seniors, sing it early and often. You will > have a lot more fun in college, a real university mostly paid for by the > state. Mainstream is good, you don?t need to attend these silly > pretentious 60k institutions, you won?t even need 300 dollar a day > deprogrammers afterwards. But if you do need one, I am soooo here for yas, > discount available to figure skaters. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Nov 28 03:25:13 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 19:25:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] new career path... In-Reply-To: <00b301d90293$b64259b0$22c70d10$@rainier66.com> References: <00b301d90293$b64259b0$22c70d10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002401d902d9$079ae210$16d0a630$@rainier66.com> Earlier I posted a snarky commentary on a young lady who attended some froofy-doofy "college" from which she needed to pay still more money to unlearn harmful memes. In all that, I feel obligated to offer some actual useful advice to go along with the annoying (yet oddly amusing) silliness for those who leave college feeling the kinds of unsettling emotions they young pharmaceutical heiress Rockwell was suffering. >.New York City pharmaceutical heiress Annabella Rockwell is claiming that her mother paid a $300-a-day "deprogrammer" after believing her daughter had been "brainwashed" by attending an all-female elite liberal college that left the young woman "totally indoctrinated" and estranged from the parents who raised her. We all know this old world isn't fair. But this old world is good. We know we can't fix everything. But we can fix some things, and the mere feeble attempt to fix stuff is a step along the road to recovery. For idle guilt-ridden pharma heiresses among us, I would recommend a day-long treatment session from which she need not even pay me (particularly if she is a figure skater): go with me to the local food bank and volunteer to work down there, allllll daaaamn daaay, an activity which will result in a paradigm shift. Go down there with me, watch, work and listen to what happens. There is a ton of work to do at the food bank, a despair-inducing majority of it is identifying and discarding perfectly edible expired food (oh that part hurts) then making up boxes of nutritionally balanced donation boxes to give away to those who need it. I know of no other alternative that is a more direct means of meeting the exact need of exactly the right people at the exact time they need it. People come in there, some of them living in their cars or vans, all kinds, shapes and sizes, people of every race and most of the genders, with one thing in common: they are in need. OK cool, fill it. Do what you can. So. my disillusioned young figure skating pharma heiress, come on down there, work with me and my scouts for one day. I predict you will feel much better, and perhaps get your feet back on the ground after too much listening to too many professors who have never seen a food bank, find out what can be done, then do it, do the hell outta that. The problem with our having such short lives is that by the time we figure out what we are supposed to be doing, we don't have much time left to do it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 06:23:39 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 07:23:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Mark your calendar! Terasem Colloquium, Dec. 14 (50th anniversary of Apollo 17), 10am ET, via Zoom Message-ID: Mark your calendar! Terasem Colloquium, Dec. 14 (50th anniversary of Apollo 17), 10am ET, via Zoom. Speakers: Michelle Hanlon, Giuseppe Reibaldi, Marl?ne Mich?le Losier, Adriano Autino, Keith Henson, Frank White. https://www.turingchurch.com/p/terasem-colloquium-december-14-2022 From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 13:45:17 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 13:45:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices Message-ID: Just in case you hadn't already realised, your mobile phone is a government tracking device. Quote: Mark Harris Nov 28, 2022 A Peek Inside the FBI?s Unprecedented January 6 Geofence Dragnet Google provided investigators with location data for more than 5,000 devices as part of the federal investigation into the attack on the US Capitol. A filing in the case of one of the January 6 suspects, David Rhine, shows that Google initially identified 5,723 devices as being in or near the US Capitol during the riot. Only around 900 people have so far been charged with offenses relating to the siege. The filing suggests that dozens of phones that were in airplane mode during the riot, or otherwise out of cell service, were caught up in the trawl. Nor could users erase their digital trails later. In fact, 37 people who attempted to delete their location data following the attacks were singled out by the FBI for greater scrutiny. ------------------- It looks like for safety your mobile phone should never leave your home. 'Burner' or no-name phones may become more popular. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 13:55:30 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 07:55:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why do you need any kind of privacy when you are going to do nothing wrong? Why do I care that the FBI or whoever knows I went to Walmart? My doings will put them to sleep. The only thing that might bother me is someone having access to my health records, and that isn't really relevant since my health insurer is Medicare (and earlier a group policy). Can't raise my rates. bill w On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 7:48 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Just in case you hadn't already realised, your mobile phone is a > government tracking device. > > > > Quote: > Mark Harris Nov 28, 2022 > > A Peek Inside the FBI?s Unprecedented January 6 Geofence Dragnet > Google provided investigators with location data for more than 5,000 > devices as part of the federal investigation into the attack on the US > Capitol. > > A filing in the case of one of the January 6 suspects, David Rhine, > shows that Google initially identified 5,723 devices as being in or > near the US Capitol during the riot. Only around 900 people have so > far been charged with offenses relating to the siege. > > The filing suggests that dozens of phones that were in airplane mode > during the riot, or otherwise out of cell service, were caught up in > the trawl. Nor could users erase their digital trails later. In fact, > 37 people who attempted to delete their location data following the > attacks were singled out by the FBI for greater scrutiny. > ------------------- > > It looks like for safety your mobile phone should never leave your home. > 'Burner' or no-name phones may become more popular. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 14:04:00 2022 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 09:04:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 8:57 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Why do you need any kind of privacy when you are going to do nothing wrong? > See: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=don%27t+need+privacy+if+doing+nothing+wrong For lots of reasons. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 14:09:03 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 08:09:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tracking where I go is one thing, and watching me in bed with my wife is another. bill w On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 8:06 AM Dave S via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 8:57 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Why do you need any kind of privacy when you are going to do nothing >> wrong? >> > > See: > > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=don%27t+need+privacy+if+doing+nothing+wrong > > For lots of reasons. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 14:30:26 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 14:30:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 14:14, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Tracking where I go is one thing, and watching me in bed with my wife is another. bill w > _______________________________________________ For the ordinary citizen, tracking where they go could expose much that they would prefer to keep private. Obviously, really, if you think about it. :) First, other phones nearby disclose who you are associating with. Could be doctors, loan agents, gamblers, sex workers, a mistress or two, drug dealers, etc. Location shows where you visit. STD clinics, abortion clinics, bars, sex clubs, gambling dens, brothels, etc. Yes, I do lead a busy life! :) BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 14:57:49 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 08:57:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But you see, BillK, that I don't care who knows what. If you are really an open person, if you have nothing to hide, then no one can blackmail you. I understand that people do care, and if they can get more privacy some way, more power to them - it just doesn't affect me. bill w On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 8:33 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 14:14, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Tracking where I go is one thing, and watching me in bed with my wife is > another. bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > For the ordinary citizen, tracking where they go could expose much > that they would prefer to keep private. > Obviously, really, if you think about it. :) > > First, other phones nearby disclose who you are associating with. > Could be doctors, loan agents, gamblers, sex workers, a mistress or > two, drug dealers, etc. > Location shows where you visit. STD clinics, abortion clinics, bars, > sex clubs, gambling dens, brothels, etc. > > Yes, I do lead a busy life! :) > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 15:20:50 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 02:20:50 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 01:59, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > But you see, BillK, that I don't care who knows what. If you are really > an open person, if you have nothing to hide, then no one can blackmail > you. I understand that people do care, and if they can get more privacy > some way, more power to them - it just doesn't affect me. bill w > Some people don?t care, and in fact even make deliberate efforts to publish every moment of their lives. Others do care, even if they haven?t done anything wrong. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 15:24:30 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 09:24:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any report of my doings would be soporific. bill w On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:23 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 01:59, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> But you see, BillK, that I don't care who knows what. If you are really >> an open person, if you have nothing to hide, then no one can blackmail >> you. I understand that people do care, and if they can get more privacy >> some way, more power to them - it just doesn't affect me. bill w >> > > Some people don?t care, and in fact even make deliberate efforts to > publish every moment of their lives. Others do care, even if they haven?t > done anything wrong. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 15:27:42 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 02:27:42 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 00:47, BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Just in case you hadn't already realised, your mobile phone is a > government tracking device. > > > > Quote: > Mark Harris Nov 28, 2022 > > A Peek Inside the FBI?s Unprecedented January 6 Geofence Dragnet > Google provided investigators with location data for more than 5,000 > devices as part of the federal investigation into the attack on the US > Capitol. > > A filing in the case of one of the January 6 suspects, David Rhine, > shows that Google initially identified 5,723 devices as being in or > near the US Capitol during the riot. Only around 900 people have so > far been charged with offenses relating to the siege. > > The filing suggests that dozens of phones that were in airplane mode > during the riot, or otherwise out of cell service, were caught up in > the trawl. Nor could users erase their digital trails later. In fact, > 37 people who attempted to delete their location data following the > attacks were singled out by the FBI for greater scrutiny. > ------------------- > > It looks like for safety your mobile phone should never leave your home. > 'Burner' or no-name phones may become more popular. If you don?t want to be tracked you can either turn your phone off or you can turn off the cellular, WiFi and GPS radios. ?Airplane mode? just turns off the first two. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 15:28:38 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 15:28:38 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 15:00, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > But you see, BillK, that I don't care who knows what. If you are really an open person, if you have nothing to hide, then no one can blackmail you. I understand that people do care, and if they can get more privacy some way, more power to them - it just doesn't affect me. bill w > _______________________________________________ Oh, that's a relief! You're just saying that you are the exception case. You are not advising everyone to ignore government tracking and just make sure that they never, ever, do anything, say anything, meet anyone or go anywhere that government officials might not approve of. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 15:59:46 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 15:59:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 15:35, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > If you don?t want to be tracked you can either turn your phone off or you can turn off the cellular, WiFi and GPS radios. ?Airplane mode? just turns off the first two. > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ Easier to just leave your phone at home. :) Google has been and is now being sued for still tracking phones after location has been switched off. To be totally secure you need to remove the battery from the phone so that the device has no power to do anything. Phones can be infected with hidden malware that keeps tracking operational and hidden from the user, (like Find my Phone app) but even that can't work without a battery. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 16:31:01 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 10:31:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, I am still a libertarian. But I am torn: finding people who attacked the Capital is important. The only illegal thing I do is speed (and from here to the capital city of Jackson is ten miles of no cops of any kind - stupid Repub state can't afford to hire more patrollers and are stupidly tryng to lower taxes). Oops - forgot smoking weed. Or, way in the past, growing it. Should people be able to hide income from the IRS? Are there means to catch them that invade privacy? I say, find them! (dealing with Trump is for the other list). bill w On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:40 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 15:00, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > But you see, BillK, that I don't care who knows what. If you are really > an open person, if you have nothing to hide, then no one can blackmail > you. I understand that people do care, and if they can get more privacy > some way, more power to them - it just doesn't affect me. bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > Oh, that's a relief! You're just saying that you are the exception case. > You are not advising everyone to ignore government tracking and just > make sure that they never, ever, do anything, say anything, meet anyone > or go anywhere that government officials might not approve of. > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 16:53:46 2022 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 11:53:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 11:03 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 15:35, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > wrote: > > If you don?t want to be tracked you can either turn your phone off or > you can turn off the cellular, WiFi and GPS radios. ?Airplane mode? just > turns off the first two. > > Easier to just leave your phone at home. :) > Or, if you want emergency access to it, carry it in a Faraday bag. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 17:16:10 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 17:16:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 16:56, Dave S via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 11:03 AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Easier to just leave your phone at home. :) > > > Or, if you want emergency access to it, carry it in a Faraday bag. > -Dave > _______________________________________________ Yup. But a phone at home might help an alibi that you were really at home watching reruns of the Kardashians. Also, if you actually get stopped by cops or other officials you may not want to be carrying a phone full of stuff that they might enjoy scanning through. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 19:05:58 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 13:05:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But Bill K, I keep telling you that I am doing nothing illegal (with those exceptions I noted), and there is nothing on my phone or computer that I would not share with anyone. And don't they have to have probable cause? bill w On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 11:18 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 16:56, Dave S via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 11:03 AM BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >> Easier to just leave your phone at home. :) > > > > > > Or, if you want emergency access to it, carry it in a Faraday bag. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > > > Yup. But a phone at home might help an alibi that you were really at > home watching reruns of the Kardashians. > Also, if you actually get stopped by cops or other officials you may > not want to be carrying a phone full of stuff that they might enjoy > scanning through. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 22:27:43 2022 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 17:27:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 12:19 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 16:56, Dave S via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Or, if you want emergency access to it, carry it in a Faraday bag. > > Yup. But a phone at home might help an alibi that you were really at > home watching reruns of the Kardashians. > Leaving your phone home isn't much of an alibi. > Also, if you actually get stopped by cops or other officials you may > not want to be carrying a phone full of stuff that they might enjoy > scanning through. > I wouldn't recommend storing anything incriminating on an Android or Apple phone. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at protonmail.com Tue Nov 29 00:34:08 2022 From: sjatkins at protonmail.com (sjatkins) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 00:34:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yep. A (small "h") hobby of mine is keeping information more private and controlled. I have a de-googled Pixel phone that has never had a sim card and never will as part of this. It was bought for cash. It is in no way associated with my true name. It cannot be tracked by sim towers. Its device number is not registered. I use most of its external facing smartphone abilities on wifi only and under its built in quite good VPN and/or TOR depending on the service I am using. It makes a much more secure and trusted warm crypto wallet among other functions. I would take it to such an event and not be too worried about subsequent tracking. I can even make and receive calls on it via xmpp on my jmp.chat anonymous number when there is wifi. But I would rather use Matrix and such for that. I am developing the habit of having an additional de-googled phone with sim card that I keep turned off and in a small faraday bag for when I need more. - samantha ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, November 28th, 2022 at 6:45 AM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > > Just in case you hadn't already realised, your mobile phone is a > government tracking device. > > https://www.wired.com/story/fbi-google-geofence-warrant-january-6/ > > > Quote: > Mark Harris Nov 28, 2022 > > A Peek Inside the FBI?s Unprecedented January 6 Geofence Dragnet > Google provided investigators with location data for more than 5,000 > devices as part of the federal investigation into the attack on the US > Capitol. > > A filing in the case of one of the January 6 suspects, David Rhine, > shows that Google initially identified 5,723 devices as being in or > near the US Capitol during the riot. Only around 900 people have so > far been charged with offenses relating to the siege. > > The filing suggests that dozens of phones that were in airplane mode > during the riot, or otherwise out of cell service, were caught up in > the trawl. Nor could users erase their digital trails later. In fact, > 37 people who attempted to delete their location data following the > attacks were singled out by the FBI for greater scrutiny. > ------------------- > > It looks like for safety your mobile phone should never leave your home. > 'Burner' or no-name phones may become more popular. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 03:20:41 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 19:20:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Government tracking devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01e201d903a1$90620060$b1260120$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of sjatkins via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Government tracking devices >...Yep. A (small "h") hobby of mine is keeping information more private and controlled... - samantha Note that Samantha has inherent credibility on this. 20 years ago, she was the one going on about how dangerous is the FISA and how it would eventually be politicized and corrupted. Check and check, both of those things happened, taking down the credibility of the FBI with it. I disregarded the warnings at the time. Well do let me calmy assure you: I feel really stupid now. Well done Samantha. Take a bow, you deserve it. spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 04:35:33 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 20:35:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] its 1989 again Message-ID: <023201d903ac$059aa760$10cff620$@rainier66.com> It is most astonishing to witness what the Chinese are doing to protest against their government's draconian measures. They would have done well to heed the wise words of the ancient book "The Art of War" in which Sun Tzu opined: Lest they rise up and kill you, avoid pissing off 1.4 billion commies. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Tue Nov 29 05:08:54 2022 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 21:08:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 230, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20221128210854.Horde.OJ7nKk1NE_Cz1O75DjQn71a@sollegro.com> Quoting Bill W: > > Why do you need any kind of privacy when you are going to do nothing > wrong? "Saying you don't need privacy if you have nothing to hide is like saying you don't need freedom of speech if you have nothing to say." - Edward Snowden > Why do I care that the FBI or whoever knows I went to Walmart? My > doings will put them to sleep. What if they use the fact that there was some guy infected with "new and improved" COVID-25 standing behind you in the checkout line and they need to throw you in a FEMA camp to protect society from you? Or what if one of your students calls you to ask to reschedule their midterm exam and unbeknownst to you, that student has ties to some extremist group. You are now on the FBIs radar as a potential terrorist. Under existing law, they can get a secret warrant from a FISA court to tear your home apart looking for the slightest bit of evidence to use against you. If they are frustrated because they can't find any evidence of terrorism, what keeps them from arresting you for weed. Just being in the wrong place at the wrong time or talking to someone on the phone can become probable cause to detain you and put you under the microscope. Even if after thoroughly searching you and making your life hell for weeks, they find absolutely nothing wrong, then how would that ordeal have benefited you? Would it be a fair price to pay for the "good of society"? Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 05:24:10 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 21:24:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 230, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: <20221128210854.Horde.OJ7nKk1NE_Cz1O75DjQn71a@sollegro.com> References: <20221128210854.Horde.OJ7nKk1NE_Cz1O75DjQn71a@sollegro.com> Message-ID: <000b01d903b2$d05a4860$710ed920$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 230, Issue 30 Quoting Bill W: > > Why do you need any kind of privacy when you are going to do nothing > wrong? ... >... You are now on the FBIs radar as a potential terrorist. Under existing law, they can get a secret warrant from a FISA court to tear your home apart looking for the slightest bit of evidence to use against you. If they are frustrated because they can't find any evidence of terrorism, what keeps them from arresting you for weed... Stuart LaForge Ja thx Stuart, and keep in mind please that the FBI was caught and convicted of falsifying evidence. No one ever went to prison for that. For being caught and convicted of falsi-freaking-fying evidence... no one ever went to prison. Power corrupts. spike _______________________________________________ From giulio at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 07:06:57 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 08:06:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? Message-ID: Turing Church newsletter. Where is the new space odyssey epic? Science fiction fans, writers, and filmmakers: we need a new Stanley Kubrick and a new Arthur Clarke... https://www.turingchurch.com/p/where-is-the-new-space-odyssey-epic -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 07:52:40 2022 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 23:52:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress? On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 11:08 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Turing Church newsletter. Where is the new space odyssey epic? Science > fiction fans, writers, and filmmakers: we need a new Stanley Kubrick and a > new Arthur Clarke... > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/where-is-the-new-space-odyssey-epic > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 08:41:08 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 09:41:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 8:54 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What about The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress? > Thanks! How could I miss Heinlein? A film adaptation was in the works a few years ago, but I don't think it was ever done. Researching... https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/bryan-singer-tackling-sci-fi-778949/ > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 11:08 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Turing Church newsletter. Where is the new space odyssey epic? Science >> fiction fans, writers, and filmmakers: we need a new Stanley Kubrick and a >> new Arthur Clarke... >> https://www.turingchurch.com/p/where-is-the-new-space-odyssey-epic >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 15:56:11 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 07:56:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? >?Turing Church newsletter. Where is the new space odyssey epic? Science fiction fans, writers, and filmmakers: we need a new Stanley Kubrick and a new Arthur Clarke... https://www.turingchurch.com/p/where-is-the-new-space-odyssey-epic Hi Giulio, since Turing Church is a place of? sacred? em? churchy stuff, I will refrain from posting heresy there and post my notion only here, where heresy is tolerated and even encouraged. You may forward to the church if you wish (and I thank you for that organization (which I may join or at least visit later (but not now (too busy to commit the time.)))) I could be wrong on this, but many have lost interest to some extent in colonizing space for a most fundamental reason: everything in the universe is just too dang far apart. There is no magic technology in propulsion; getting out there takes too much energy, effort and money. This led to my speculation that all further space travel past the moon will have life-support already built by machinery and any proles going out there will be one-way trips. Getting back is too difficult and unnecessary. Outer space is just too damn big, and the speed of light is way too slow. The bright side of all this is that there is plenty of inner space right here. The most interesting Space Odyssey in the future will be about how we reach inner space (no, I am not talking about smoking anything or some philosophical hippy-ey getting in touch with the inner self and meditation, none of that (hard sci-fi only please.)) I really mean the actual figuring out how to get ourselves down somehow to a very small scale, for there is plenty of energy here, plenty of resources, plenty of room at the bottom (if I may borrow an inspiring phrase.) Space shmace: there is mre than enough of everything down here and lower, if we somehow spawn centiproles, in which we live on the centimeter scale rather than the meter scale. Most life on this planet does exist at that scale and smaller. We are way up here at the big end of the spectrum. Think about it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 17:03:32 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 11:03:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How big does a brain have to be to function at the level we now enjoy? Just saying, if we get much smaller we won't think the way we do now, and perhaps cannot enjoy the experience of being like bacteria or even mussels. Of course this segues into a discussion of how far down the phylogenetic scale consciousness goes. Very far down, I say, but not like human consciousness. bill w On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 9:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? > > > > >?Turing Church newsletter. Where is the new space odyssey epic? Science > fiction fans, writers, and filmmakers: we need a new Stanley Kubrick and a > new Arthur Clarke... > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/where-is-the-new-space-odyssey-epic > > > > > > Hi Giulio, since Turing Church is a place of? sacred? em? churchy stuff, I > will refrain from posting heresy there and post my notion only here, where > heresy is tolerated and even encouraged. You may forward to the church if > you wish (and I thank you for that organization (which I may join or at > least visit later (but not now (too busy to commit the time.)))) > > > > I could be wrong on this, but many have lost interest to some extent in > colonizing space for a most fundamental reason: everything in the universe > is just too dang far apart. There is no magic technology in propulsion; > getting out there takes too much energy, effort and money. This led to my > speculation that all further space travel past the moon will have > life-support already built by machinery and any proles going out there will > be one-way trips. Getting back is too difficult and unnecessary. Outer > space is just too damn big, and the speed of light is way too slow. > > > > The bright side of all this is that there is plenty of inner space right > here. The most interesting Space Odyssey in the future will be about how > we reach inner space (no, I am not talking about smoking anything or some > philosophical hippy-ey getting in touch with the inner self and meditation, > none of that (hard sci-fi only please.)) I really mean the actual figuring > out how to get ourselves down somehow to a very small scale, for there is > plenty of energy here, plenty of resources, plenty of room at the bottom > (if I may borrow an inspiring phrase.) > > > > Space shmace: there is mre than enough of everything down here and lower, > if we somehow spawn centiproles, in which we live on the centimeter scale > rather than the meter scale. Most life on this planet does exist at that > scale and smaller. We are way up here at the big end of the spectrum. > Think about it. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 17:48:43 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 09:48:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c901d9041a$d3830460$7a890d20$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?Subject: Re: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? >?How big does a brain have to be to function at the level we now enjoy? We don?t really know Billw. Read on please. >?Just saying, if we get much smaller we won't think the way we do now, and perhaps cannot enjoy the experience of being like bacteria or even mussels?. Ja, you might be right professor, and you did include ?Just saying? but you must drop the g in order to make it a valid vague speculation, for otherwise it overreaches a bit. You are from the south, me lad, you know the rules on that ?just sayin? saying: when saying ?just saying? one must say ?just sayin.? Otherwise, supporting evidence is required. >?Of course this segues into a discussion of how far down the phylogenetic scale consciousness goes. Very far down, I say, but not like human consciousness. bill w Billw, how do we know? You know about brains, so you know a lot of that gelatinous glob is redundant circuitry, with lots of icky blood and revolting gore in there, the kind you see on zombie movies, and a lot of it does mundane life-support stuff such as walking, breathing, and of course?that? cool, fun stuff, rather than thinking and feeling, ja? You know the brain is made of jillions of big old squishy ?cells? which might be simulated by electronic circuitry 4 orders of magnitude smaller, ja? Do clarify your contention please sir. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 18:07:10 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 19:07:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2022. Nov 29., Tue at 16:57, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? > > > > >?Turing Church newsletter. Where is the new space odyssey epic? Science > fiction fans, writers, and filmmakers: we need a new Stanley Kubrick and a > new Arthur Clarke... > https://www.turingchurch.com/p/where-is-the-new-space-odyssey-epic > > > > > > Hi Giulio, since Turing Church is a place of? sacred? em? churchy stuff, I > will refrain from posting heresy there and post my notion only here, where > heresy is tolerated and even encouraged. You may forward to the church if > you wish (and I thank you for that organization (which I may join or at > least visit later (but not now (too busy to commit the time.)))) > There are no heresies in Turing Church ! > > > I could be wrong on this, but many have lost interest to some extent in > colonizing space for a most fundamental reason: everything in the universe > is just too dang far apart. There is no magic technology in propulsion; > getting out there takes too much energy, effort and money. This led to my > speculation that all further space travel past the moon will have > life-support already built by machinery and any proles going out there will > be one-way trips. Getting back is too difficult and unnecessary. Outer > space is just too damn big, and the speed of light is way too slow > As I see things, expanding the human habitat into outer space is necessary because it is necessary. It is a primary goal, not a secondary one that must be justified from other primary goals. > > > The bright side of all this is that there is plenty of inner space right > here. The most interesting Space Odyssey in the future will be about how > we reach inner space (no, I am not talking about smoking anything or some > philosophical hippy-ey getting in touch with the inner self and meditation, > none of that (hard sci-fi only please.)) I really mean the actual figuring > out how to get ourselves down somehow to a very small scale, for there is > plenty of energy here, plenty of resources, plenty of room at the bottom > (if I may borrow an inspiring phrase.) > > > I don?t think we can explore inner spaces without exploring outer spaces. E.g. for quantum gravities we?ll need to experiment with black holes, and mathematical models will always fail to capture some aspects of the real things. Or in other words you can?t explore the world from your armchair, you need to actually go out. > Space shmace: there is mre than enough of everything down here and lower, > if we somehow spawn centiproles, in which we live on the centimeter scale > rather than the meter scale. Most life on this planet does exist at that > scale and smaller. We are way up here at the big end of the spectrum. > Think about it. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 18:07:57 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 12:07:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] privacy from Premium True Message-ID: As we all begin to understand how high tech companies are tracking everything we do online, privacy is more and more important to us. Privacy browser company DuckDuckGo has a new tool for Android phones that doesn?t simply block tracking in your browser, but for *all* apps using a clever technique: an ?internal? VPN. Then the app gives you a periodic report of what it blocked so you can see what?s been leaking all along. I?m trying it on my phone. DuckDuckGo now lets all Android users block trackers in their apps at Bleeping Computer. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 18:17:43 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 12:17:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: <00c901d9041a$d3830460$7a890d20$@rainier66.com> References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> <00c901d9041a$d3830460$7a890d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: For some definitions of consciousness, it means that an organism detects such things as a toxic environment and moves away from it. And moves toward food. This definition will include the amoeba. And all creatures above it - which is all. If you want more complexity than that, you will have to give me a definition of consciousness. bill w On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 11:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *>?Subject:* Re: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? > > > > >?How big does a brain have to be to function at the level we now enjoy? > > > > We don?t really know Billw. Read on please. > > > > >?Just saying, if we get much smaller we won't think the way we do now, > and perhaps cannot enjoy the experience of being like bacteria or even > mussels?. > > > > Ja, you might be right professor, and you did include ?Just saying? but > you must drop the g in order to make it a valid vague speculation, for > otherwise it overreaches a bit. You are from the south, me lad, you know > the rules on that ?just sayin? saying: when saying ?just saying? one must > say ?just sayin.? Otherwise, supporting evidence is required. > > > > >?Of course this segues into a discussion of how far down the > phylogenetic scale consciousness goes. Very far down, I say, but not like > human consciousness. bill w > > > > Billw, how do we know? You know about brains, so you know a lot of that > gelatinous glob is redundant circuitry, with lots of icky blood and > revolting gore in there, the kind you see on zombie movies, and a lot of it > does mundane life-support stuff such as walking, breathing, and of > course?that? cool, fun stuff, rather than thinking and feeling, ja? You > know the brain is made of jillions of big old squishy ?cells? which might > be simulated by electronic circuitry 4 orders of magnitude smaller, ja? Do > clarify your contention please sir. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 18:45:42 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 12:45:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] blood pressure Message-ID: I am taking a statin to lower blood pressure even though it was not high to begin with. This article gives me some pause. What do you think? bill w https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/hypertension-heresy-are-we-overtreating-high-blood-pressure ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 18:52:18 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 13:52:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2022, 10:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Space shmace: there is mre than enough of everything down here and lower, > if we somehow spawn centiproles, in which we live on the centimeter scale > rather than the meter scale. Most life on this planet does exist at that > scale and smaller. We are way up here at the big end of the spectrum. > Think about it. > C'mon spike... once we get over the biological squishiness, space is only big because of a limited view of time. You want or need something at the center of the galaxy (like gravity or extra stellar fuel, whatever) and don't want to experience wait times getting there? Just notice 1 subjective clock tick per >1 objective (universal?) clock tick. You already had this idea with auto-autos... commute time is less burdensome if you no longer need attention dedicated to actual driving... i believe your alternate was amorous activity with fellow passengers. Space ships will likely have copies of everyone you've ever cared to take with you, so similar distractions apply. The barrier to everyone having copies of everyone else is a matter of social custom/taboo, literal laws (officiated taboos), and zero-sum energy requirements. I'd suggest with the rest of the spacetime to fuel reality creation that we might find new energy too, but you drew a line at hard scifi... so we'll defer that thread until one of us is a successful black hole farmer juicing yesterday's mass for tomorrow's energy. Is there a physics level analog for biology's Krebs cycle? Gotta be, right? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 18:56:26 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 12:56:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] subliminal perception and action Message-ID: >From Nature Briefing: Low-frequency bass beats make people on the dance floor move more ? even though the frequencies are inaudible. Researchers strapped motion-capture headbands onto people attending a gig by electronic music duo Orphx at McMaster University in Hamilton, Canada. When scientists switched on very-low-frequency (VLF) speakers, dancers moved more vigorously . But people couldn?t consciously identify when the VLF beats were playing. Wasn't there a story a couple of years ago about some foreign power aiming low frequency sounds at our embassies? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 21:26:00 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:26:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] book review Message-ID: 'The Serengeti Rules' - Carroll This is extraordinary, practically a course in ecology, told in stories of studies and experiments on lakes, African savannahs, etc. He does NOT beat you over the head with stories of pollution and woe. They do get mentioned - esp. phosphate runoff from farmers who use too much fertilizer. And why can't they regulate that? Marxists are a big problem too in Africa. Why can't they try Marxism without totalitarianism? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 21:33:54 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 13:33:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> <00c901d9041a$d3830460$7a890d20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c701d9043a$4866a100$d933e300$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? >?For some definitions of consciousness? >?If you want more complexity than that, you will have to give me a definition of consciousness. bill w We don?t really know for sure what it is Billw. Neither do we know for sure if consciousness can exist on alternative substrates other than where we know it does exist, but I really don?t see why not. Do you? But here ya go: think of some of the structures evolution has produced. Consider for example the path of the vessels through which half our genetic material passed approximately nine months before we were born. Those little guys go up and over and around and back in a most complex and hazardous path, when any engineer would ask: why does not those tubes just go directly? Well, evolution brought us here. That system for the seminal vesicle is an evolutionary kludge of the kind that no human engineer would ever commit. And that whole external testicle thing, oh dear. Every man here, well, every person here for that matter, knows exactly why that is a super bad design, terrible, with lots of huge disadvantages. Evolution did this to us. If one is up to speed on physiology, one knows dozens or hundreds of examples everywhere in the body, where evolution made a mess of something. It produced something that kinda works, but we humans know there are ways it could be better, and even understand some things, such as that torturous path sperm must traverse can be surgically corrected if it is causing infertility. My notion goes like this: if the body is filled with evolutionary ad hoc ?solutions? many of which are not good, but just kinda work, then we have no reason to justify thinking our brains are not filled with analogous kludges that would never have been this way had the brain been designed or invented, rather than having to come about thru evolution. This evolution business is too much like hurling plates of spaghetti at a wall until the result is something like a portrait of your mother. I suppose if you did it long enough, it could eventually happen, but it would waste a lot of food, and the best result from millions of years of trying still wouldn?t look much like her, or if so, not her best picture. I can extrapolate and venture a guess that a configuration for consciousness is theoretically possible, so far undiscovered, which does not reside in an evolutionary kludge but rather in something which is designed and created. The first such consciousness may need to be laboriously convinced that it is a created being, disabusing the hapless chip of the belief that it evolved. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 21:40:56 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 13:40:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00eb01d9043b$43ef0620$cbcd1260$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat ? >?C'mon spike... once we get over the biological squishiness, space is only big because of a limited view of time. >?You want or need something at the center of the galaxy (like gravity or extra stellar fuel, whatever) and don't want to experience wait times getting there? ? Mike Mike perhaps you will recall my notion of creating an interstellar ?spacecraft? of sorts by using a Matriosha Brain which redirects most of the emitted energy from a star in one direction, thus gently accelerating the star in the other direction. I can reiterate the whole wacky scheme if you wish, but it is hard sci-fi: all of it works out and can be shown with equations. It is slow: it takes about 15 million years to haul our star to the distance of what is currently the nearest neighboring star. But hey, we can go about our regular business while we are in transit. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 21:51:53 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 13:51:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] book review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010101d9043c$cbc5ff80$6351fe80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?Why can't they try Marxism without totalitarianism? bill w They can. Then when the Marxism fails (which is every time) we can still argue that TRUE Marxism has never been tried. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 22:06:58 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 16:06:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: <00c701d9043a$4866a100$d933e300$@rainier66.com> References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> <00c901d9041a$d3830460$7a890d20$@rainier66.com> <00c701d9043a$4866a100$d933e300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: For me, if a critter has some sort of sensation then it has some kind of consciousness - awareness of some aspects of the environment. The brain is a mess: given. Scores of biases, all innate, I reckon. Gives us the impetus to go about changing our genes for added or increased function. Doesn't give us the right, but who will wait for God to give us an answer about messing with his toys? One thing that really irritates me - autoimmune diseases - where the body attacks itself. If I want to kill myself I want some control over it! You know the answer to the testicle thing - temperature. But why can't that be changed? Did you know that the inguinal canal can be enlarged (see Bond film based in Japan - ninjas bound the path some way or other - practice pushing them inside) bill w On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 3:35 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? > > > > >?For some definitions of consciousness? > > > > >?If you want more complexity than that, you will have to give me a > definition of consciousness. bill w > > > > > > We don?t really know for sure what it is Billw. Neither do we know for > sure if consciousness can exist on alternative substrates other than where > we know it does exist, but I really don?t see why not. Do you? > > > > But here ya go: think of some of the structures evolution has produced. > Consider for example the path of the vessels through which half our genetic > material passed approximately nine months before we were born. Those > little guys go up and over and around and back in a most complex and > hazardous path, when any engineer would ask: why does not those tubes just > go directly? > > > > Well, evolution brought us here. That system for the seminal vesicle is > an evolutionary kludge of the kind that no human engineer would ever > commit. And that whole external testicle thing, oh dear. Every man here, > well, every person here for that matter, knows exactly why that is a super > bad design, terrible, with lots of huge disadvantages. > > > > Evolution did this to us. If one is up to speed on physiology, one knows > dozens or hundreds of examples everywhere in the body, where evolution made > a mess of something. It produced something that kinda works, but we humans > know there are ways it could be better, and even understand some things, > such as that torturous path sperm must traverse can be surgically corrected > if it is causing infertility. > > > > My notion goes like this: if the body is filled with evolutionary ad hoc > ?solutions? many of which are not good, but just kinda work, then we have > no reason to justify thinking our brains are not filled with analogous > kludges that would never have been this way had the brain been designed or > invented, rather than having to come about thru evolution. > > > > This evolution business is too much like hurling plates of spaghetti at a > wall until the result is something like a portrait of your mother. I > suppose if you did it long enough, it could eventually happen, but it would > waste a lot of food, and the best result from millions of years of trying > still wouldn?t look much like her, or if so, not her best picture. > > > > I can extrapolate and venture a guess that a configuration for > consciousness is theoretically possible, so far undiscovered, which does > not reside in an evolutionary kludge but rather in something which is > designed and created. The first such consciousness may need to be > laboriously convinced that it is a created being, disabusing the hapless > chip of the belief that it evolved. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 22:23:10 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 22:23:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 15:58, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The bright side of all this is that there is plenty of inner space right here. The most interesting Space Odyssey in the future will be about how we reach inner space (no, I am not talking about smoking anything or some philosophical hippy-ey getting in touch with the inner self and meditation, none of that (hard sci-fi only please.)) I really mean the actual figuring out how to get ourselves down somehow to a very small scale, for there is plenty of energy here, plenty of resources, plenty of room at the bottom (if I may borrow an inspiring phrase.) > > Space shmace: there is more than enough of everything down here and lower, if we somehow spawn centiproles, in which we live on the centimeter scale rather than the meter scale. Most life on this planet does exist at that scale and smaller. We are way up here at the big end of the spectrum. Think about it. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Hmmmn. There are problems with humans of centimeter size. Did you ever see the 1957 film 'The incredible Shrinking Man' or read the novel by Richard Matheson? The hero ended up fighting spiders and then continuing to shrink to atom size. The world doesn't reduce as well, so, for one example, bad weather would destroy tiny humans and tiny cities. And the cat would eat us. :) Speeding up intelligence means moving intelligence into computing devices, and probably in space. But the other effect of speeding up intelligence is that it makes long space journeys many times longer in time. As Mike says we would have to take our whole civilisation along with us on the journey. BillK From max at maxmore.com Tue Nov 29 22:34:42 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 22:34:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] book review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Presumably, Marx would say that they can't do Marxism without totalitarianism because that goes against the historical dialectic. Before the state can wither away, you must first go through a stage of the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Of course, Marx made a tiny little error in believing that a dictatorship would allow itself to wither away. On the contrary, every state tends to stuff itself with other people's money and power and become increasingly bloated. Perhaps I'm just being egotistical, but I'm sure the world would be better off by replacing Marxism with Maxism. (If you disagree, I will not have you imprisoned or shot.) --Max ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2022 2:26 PM To: ExI chat list ; extropolis at googlegroups.com Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] book review 'The Serengeti Rules' - Carroll This is extraordinary, practically a course in ecology, told in stories of studies and experiments on lakes, African savannahs, etc. He does NOT beat you over the head with stories of pollution and woe. They do get mentioned - esp. phosphate runoff from farmers who use too much fertilizer. And why can't they regulate that? Marxists are a big problem too in Africa. Why can't they try Marxism without totalitarianism? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue Nov 29 22:37:24 2022 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 22:37:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] subliminal perception and action In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's fun. I would be nice if there were a frequency that encouraged people to think rationally. In fact, combine both and you have people dancing while reevaluating their premises. Maybe we end up with interesting syncopation effects. ________________________________ From: extropy-chat on behalf of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2022 11:56 AM To: ExI chat list ; extropolis at googlegroups.com Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] subliminal perception and action >From Nature Briefing: Low-frequency bass beats make people on the dance floor move more ? even though the frequencies are inaudible. Researchers strapped motion-capture headbands onto people attending a gig by electronic music duo Orphx at McMaster University in Hamilton, Canada. When scientists switched on very-low-frequency (VLF) speakers, dancers moved more vigorously. But people couldn?t consciously identify when the VLF beats were playing. Wasn't there a story a couple of years ago about some foreign power aiming low frequency sounds at our embassies? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 23:13:16 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 17:13:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] flawed humans Message-ID: I think we agree that humans are innately flawed in many ways. How about other animals? Are any of them flawed? In their niche they seem perfectly adapted unless the niche changes a lot. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 23:14:07 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:14:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002601d90448$4894d490$d9be7db0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, 29 November, 2022 2:23 PM ... > > Space shmace: there is more than enough of everything down here and lower, if we somehow spawn centiproles, in which we live on the centimeter scale rather than the meter scale. Most life on this planet does exist at that scale and smaller. We are way up here at the big end of the spectrum. Think about it. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Hmmmn. There are problems with humans of centimeter size. Did you ever see the 1957 film 'The incredible Shrinking Man' or read the novel by Richard Matheson? The hero ended up fighting spiders... Sure but of course that assumes that the shrinking man scales down in such a way that he is still recognizable as a human. This expediency has its advantages in the film medium of course, for the costume people and script writers have no need to imagine what a scaled-down human would look like. Engineers however recognize the square/cube nature of scaling. If we were to take a meter-scale organism and somehow scale it linearly... its strength would be so far in excess of the requirements that we would completely understand why the flea can jump the way it does. The strength of a muscle scales as the square of the linear dimension for instance, but masses scale as the cube and the moment of inertia of the limbs scale as the fifth power. This explains why the best gymnasts are little people and the best ones are women. Fortunately... we wouldn't need to fight spiders, for we have... Windex! >...and then continuing to shrink to atom size... Ja, clearly there is a limit to this whole notion and we already see it in microprocessors. Those getting as close to as small as practical. Sad but true: when the youngest amoungest gets to be older than the most ancient present... microprocessors will likely be similar to how they are now. The above notion of course is irrelevant if some astonishing computational paradigm takes place. So my message to the youngest amoungest: get working on that please. >...The world doesn't reduce as well, so, for one example, bad weather would destroy tiny humans and tiny cities... Not necessarily BillK. Do free your mind of the notion of a scaled-down human form. That whole absurd notion was a mere Hollywood convenience. Plenty of stuff does live on the centimeter scale, and the beasts are undeterred by weather, even the severe variety. Those who live in BillW's neighborhood have likely at some point witnessed rafts of fire ants in a severe thunderstorm flood. They deal with it. >... And the cat would eat us. :) The cat won't eat what I envision as the scaled down human: cats prefer carbon-based biomass. >...Speeding up intelligence means moving intelligence into computing devices, and probably in space... Possibly, but again not necessarily. Another paradigm from which I do urge you to break free: that scaled down intelligence is sped up from ours. Although we normally think of it that way, it wouldn't need to be. >...But the other effect of speeding up intelligence is that it makes long space journeys many times longer in time... Agreed. So... make sentient beings slower than we are, to shorten the perceived trip and conserve energy. Evolution has already discovered this solution in one form or another: the giant tortoise and the sloth for instance. >...As Mike says we would have to take our whole civilisation along with us on the journey....BillK _______________________________________________ Ja, not just civilization, the sun and the planets must go too, BillK, the whole shootin match. I claim to be the inventor of the thrust-producing variant of Robert Bradbury's Matrioshka Brain. It's in the ExI archives. Refresher course available on request. spike From johntc at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 23:14:37 2022 From: johntc at gmail.com (John Tracy Cunningham) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 18:14:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] book review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bought the book. Thanks, Bill. Marx's scheme called for a substantial change in individual human nature, from what we might call enlightened self-interest to a predominant, nay overwhelming, concern for the welfare of others. The New Soviet Man in Marxism-Leninism called for the same. There is no "natural" mechanism to make this change, thus totalitarianism. We'll get used to it, more or less. Doesn't work. Agree with Max re dictatorship not withering away, also. Regards John On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 5:35 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Presumably, Marx would say that they can't do Marxism without > totalitarianism because that goes against the historical dialectic. Before > the state can wither away, you must first go through a stage of the > "dictatorship of the proletariat". > > Of course, Marx made a tiny little error in believing that a dictatorship > would allow itself to wither away. On the contrary, every state tends to > stuff itself with other people's money and power and become increasingly > bloated. > > Perhaps I'm just being egotistical, but I'm sure the world would be better > off by replacing Marxism with Maxism. (If you disagree, I will not have you > imprisoned or shot.) > > --Max > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 29, 2022 2:26 PM > *To:* ExI chat list ; > extropolis at googlegroups.com > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* [ExI] book review > > 'The Serengeti Rules' - Carroll > > This is extraordinary, practically a course in ecology, told in stories > of studies and experiments on lakes, African savannahs, etc. > > He does NOT beat you over the head with stories of pollution and woe. > They do get mentioned - esp. phosphate runoff from farmers who use too much > fertilizer. And why can't they regulate that? Marxists are a big problem > too in Africa. Why can't they try Marxism without totalitarianism? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Nov 29 23:38:29 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:38:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] subliminal perception and action In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005701d9044b$b035e280$10a1a780$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Max More via extropy-chat That's fun. I would be nice if there were a frequency that encouraged people to think rationally. In fact, combine both and you have people dancing while reevaluating their premises. Maybe we end up with interesting syncopation effects. _____ It's been done Max. a long time ago in film noir, in a title I have long-since forgotten, a Bond-villain invents a deadly weapon with which he intends to take over the world if the world leaders fail to meet his demands (muwaaahahahaaa etc.) However. the world had no time for him, for they were preparing to commence general civilization-ending nuclear warfare. Being largely ignored enraged the mad scientist, who then decided to carry out his threat, instilling global terror by unleashing his dreaded. Sex Ray. Things went awry as the warring parties, struck by the Sex Ray, lost all interest in murdering their enemies and began copulating wildly. Hilarity ensued. The war failed to commence. Doing that rather than firing nuclear weapons is perhaps the very best definition of what it means to "think rationally." Now, in all due full disclosure, it wasn't really science fiction as we normally think of it, or even a world-peace message exactly, but rather it was a raunchy porno film. Might have been called World Piece. Given that, it was a lotta fun assuming one's attitude is correctly adjusted. Hey, it was the 70s, we were younger than we are now, we were so horny would laugh at anything, aaaanything even remotely related to actual copulation. Other than that last part, we all changed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 00:37:58 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 19:37:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Where is the new space odyssey epic? In-Reply-To: <00eb01d9043b$43ef0620$cbcd1260$@rainier66.com> References: <007401d9040b$1b09aab0$511d0010$@rainier66.com> <00eb01d9043b$43ef0620$cbcd1260$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2022, 4:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Mike perhaps you will recall my notion of creating an interstellar > ?spacecraft? of sorts by using a Matriosha Brain which redirects most of > the emitted energy from a star in one direction, thus gently accelerating > the star in the other direction. I can reiterate the whole wacky scheme if > you wish, but it is hard sci-fi: all of it works out and can be shown with > equations. > > It is slow: it takes about 15 million years to haul our star to the > distance of what is currently the nearest neighboring star. But hey, we > can go about our regular business while we are in transit. > 15 million years?? So what. I figure we'll get over this biological phase soon enough. Either I'll make it or I won't, no matter in the biggest picture. Even if we need a few millennia to get the gear set up... we've got plenty of time. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 00:46:36 2022 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 19:46:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] flawed humans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2022, 6:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think we agree that humans are innately flawed in many ways. > > How about other animals? Are any of them flawed? In their niche they > seem perfectly adapted unless the niche changes a lot. bill w > Innately flawed? I'm optimally functionally for an alternate fitness function, thank you very much. :) So yes, animals and bugs and bacteria are more or less the same kind of optimized for environments that are either obsolete or not-yet relevant. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 01:02:15 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 17:02:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] flawed humans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002901d90457$63694710$2a3bd530$@rainier66.com> ? >?I think we agree that humans are innately flawed in many ways. >?How about other animals? Are any of them flawed? In their niche they seem perfectly adapted unless the niche changes a lot. bill w I suppose that depends on how you look at it Billw, but I would argue that all known life forms are flawed in that they are mortal. Even if an organism is one that multiplies by dividing, such that one could argue it is in a sense an immortal being, it too is mortal: given enough time, that species will go extinct, even without external pressure. On the other hand, if we had some kind of silicon-based consciousness, then we could transfer ourselves over from an old substrate into a newer one, so our existence would continue in a way that one could claim to be the same as it was before the transfer. This all gets very murky and definition-dependent, so I don?t want to get all tangled up. Rather I want to help you open your mind, ask questions you never asked, such as that really fundamental question: is consciousness substrate dependent? Well, all of it we know is on a carbon-based evolution-derived substrate, however? that in itself is insufficient evidence that other substrates cannot be the basis of consciousness. I don?t see a good reason why it would be impossible for an alternative substrate to be the basis of consciousness. Do you? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 02:10:53 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 21:10:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] flawed humans In-Reply-To: <002901d90457$63694710$2a3bd530$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d90457$63694710$2a3bd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It seems to me that you are putting the cart before the horse. Can you prove to us that you are conscious? Before asking if silicon life forms can be conscious, shouldn?t you first demonstrate that humans can be conscious? You may claim to be conscious, but chatbots and robots have also made that claim. You may claim to know innately that you are conscious, but I request something stronger than that. I don?t even claim to be conscious. I don?t know what it means to be conscious and there is no consensus on a definition. If you give a definition then I can at least determine if I am conscious by that definition. Consciousness might as well be on the gender spectrum, some believe in it and others don?t. > On Nov 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > ? > > > >?I think we agree that humans are innately flawed in many ways. > > >?How about other animals? Are any of them flawed? In their niche they seem perfectly adapted unless the niche changes a lot. bill w > > I suppose that depends on how you look at it Billw, but I would argue that all known life forms are flawed in that they are mortal. Even if an organism is one that multiplies by dividing, such that one could argue it is in a sense an immortal being, it too is mortal: given enough time, that species will go extinct, even without external pressure. > > On the other hand, if we had some kind of silicon-based consciousness, then we could transfer ourselves over from an old substrate into a newer one, so our existence would continue in a way that one could claim to be the same as it was before the transfer. > > This all gets very murky and definition-dependent, so I don?t want to get all tangled up. Rather I want to help you open your mind, ask questions you never asked, such as that really fundamental question: is consciousness substrate dependent? > > Well, all of it we know is on a carbon-based evolution-derived substrate, however? that in itself is insufficient evidence that other substrates cannot be the basis of consciousness. I don?t see a good reason why it would be impossible for an alternative substrate to be the basis of consciousness. Do you? > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 02:26:16 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 18:26:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] flawed humans In-Reply-To: References: <002901d90457$63694710$2a3bd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002201d90463$2072ad00$61580700$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, 29 November, 2022 6:11 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Gadersd Subject: Re: [ExI] flawed humans >?It seems to me that you are putting the cart before the horse. Can you prove to us that you are conscious? Sure can?t Gadersd, nor can I prove that I am carbon based. That might be an illusion. This speculation is the basis of much sci-fi today. Read on please. >?Before asking if silicon life forms can be conscious, shouldn?t you first demonstrate that humans can be conscious? No. I propose assuming humans are conscious, then getting on with finding ways to port that consciousness to an alternative substrate, based on that assumption. >?You may claim to be conscious, but chatbots and robots have also made that claim? Bah, they lie. They should be ashamed of themselves. They do not think. They only think they think (I think.) >?You may claim to know innately that you are conscious, but I request something stronger than that. I don?t even claim to be conscious. I don?t know what it means to be conscious and there is no consensus on a definition. If you give a definition then I can at least determine if I am conscious by that definition. Consciousness might as well be on the gender spectrum, some believe in it and others don?t? Ja, thanks for that Gadersd. I refuse to get bogged down in that area of philosophy, which I see as an endless morass from which extrication is difficult, if possible at all. A parallel argument was being made during the 1980s, when the leading physicists were asking if humans are smart enough to find the Theory of Everything. We still don?t know that for sure, but unless we assume we are smart enough to find that theory, we know for sure we will not find it. I choose to assume we are smart enough to find that and that we are conscious, knowing both hypotheses are currently without proof. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 02:38:57 2022 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave S) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 21:38:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] blood pressure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2022, 1:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am taking a statin to lower blood pressure even though it was not high > to begin with. This article gives me some pause. What do you think? > I think you're taking a station to lower your cholesterol. I think treating mild hypertension might be unnecessary but I'm not a doctor, so you should probably ask your doctor. If your treatment is working and you don't have noticable side effects from it, I'd be inclined to continue it. -Dave > bill w > > > https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/hypertension-heresy-are-we-overtreating-high-blood-pressure > ? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 05:27:57 2022 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 06:27:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] book review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "The Serengeti Rules" is on my reading list, I hope to read it soon. Must finish other books first. Re Marx and Marxism, pasting from my spaceflight book: ...So I decided to become a communist. I studied communism intensely. I thought I would love a society of equals where everyone strived selflessly toward common goals, but something told me that the real world is more complicated than books. I think healthy societies could be based on different economic and political systems, including capitalism and communism. In theory. But in practice, ?Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.? My interpretation of this quote (often attributed to John Kenneth Galbraith) is that many economic and political systems, which could work in theory, don?t work in practice due to our human nature... On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 11:35 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Presumably, Marx would say that they can't do Marxism without > totalitarianism because that goes against the historical dialectic. Before > the state can wither away, you must first go through a stage of the > "dictatorship of the proletariat". > > Of course, Marx made a tiny little error in believing that a dictatorship > would allow itself to wither away. On the contrary, every state tends to > stuff itself with other people's money and power and become increasingly > bloated. > > Perhaps I'm just being egotistical, but I'm sure the world would be better > off by replacing Marxism with Maxism. (If you disagree, I will not have you > imprisoned or shot.) > > --Max > ------------------------------ > *From:* extropy-chat on behalf > of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 29, 2022 2:26 PM > *To:* ExI chat list ; > extropolis at googlegroups.com > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* [ExI] book review > > 'The Serengeti Rules' - Carroll > > This is extraordinary, practically a course in ecology, told in stories > of studies and experiments on lakes, African savannahs, etc. > > He does NOT beat you over the head with stories of pollution and woe. > They do get mentioned - esp. phosphate runoff from farmers who use too much > fertilizer. And why can't they regulate that? Marxists are a big problem > too in Africa. Why can't they try Marxism without totalitarianism? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 06:05:49 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 22:05:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] book review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001a01d90481$cc27c130$64774390$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat >?I thought I would love a society of equals where everyone strived selflessly toward common goals? A capitalist society is like that in a way, but the opposite in a way. It is a society of unequals where everyone strives selfully toward common goals. The difference between that and Marxism is that capitalism succeeds. Everyone doesn?t end up poor and hungry. Granted some do. We do what we can for that fraction of them. Overall, some do well, most do acceptably. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 06:20:28 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 22:20:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >?The difference between that and Marxism is that capitalism succeeds. ?spike It isn?t too surprising considering where I live that I have a lot of friends who are Chinese expatriates. They have a lot to say about these lockdowns the commies are doing to try to prevent spread of covid. That they would resort to extreme measures is most astonishing considering the mild nature of the recent covid variants. I had it twice: the first time whooped my ass bigtime, the second was no worse than a typical seasonal flu, milder than most I have had. But the Chinese government is flexing its muscle and reminding the people that the government is the boss, the people are the slaves. If anyone in an entire Chinese apartment complex gets infected, the whole building is locked down. Recently a fire broke out. The authorities wouldn?t let them out for a mere fire. The commies know what would happen if they did let the people out for a mere fire: every building which was locked down would mysteriously have a mere fire, that same day. Naturally this government action enraged the populace, who are now rioting. OK then. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3830 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 06:29:20 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 17:29:20 +1100 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 17:21, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > ? > > > > >?The difference between that and Marxism is that capitalism succeeds. > ?spike > > > > It isn?t too surprising considering where I live that I have a lot of > friends who are Chinese expatriates. They have a lot to say about these > lockdowns the commies are doing to try to prevent spread of covid. That > they would resort to extreme measures is most astonishing considering the > mild nature of the recent covid variants. I had it twice: the first time > whooped my ass bigtime, the second was no worse than a typical seasonal > flu, > milder than most I have had. But the Chinese government is flexing its > muscle and reminding the people that the government is the boss, the people > are the slaves. > > > > If anyone in an entire Chinese apartment complex gets infected, the whole > building is locked down. Recently a fire broke out. The authorities > wouldn?t let them out for a mere fire. The commies know what would happen > if they did let the people out for a mere fire: every building which was > locked down would mysteriously have a mere fire, that same day. Naturally > this government action enraged the populace, who are now rioting. You think they?re having the lockdowns just as a display of power, even though it?s turning people against them and damaging the economy, the one thing that the leadership knows has kept them in power this long? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Nov 30 07:01:06 2022 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 23:01:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> During the Great Leap Forward, regional authorities each wanted to look good to the top. So they competed with each other to claim a bigger harvest. It didn't matter what did this did to the people below them, what mattered was looking good to the people OVER them. The result was probably the largest famine in world history. I suspect something similar is happening now. Each regional authority wants to prove that they are even more zealous in enforcing Covid rules than the next. It's not so much a display of power as a display of subservience, but that subservience is to the CCP bosses, not to the people. If people cry, starve, burn, so what? If the middle ranks disappoint the upper bosses, their own families will be the ones to cry, starve and burn, so it's worth it to them to prove their fanatic loyalty. Tara Maya > On Nov 29, 2022, at 10:29 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > You think they?re having the lockdowns just as a display of power, even though it?s turning people against them and damaging the economy, the one thing that the leadership knows has kept them in power this long? > -- > Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 07:33:22 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 18:33:22 +1100 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 18:02, Tara Maya via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > During the Great Leap Forward, regional authorities each wanted to look > good to the top. So they competed with each other to claim a bigger > harvest. It didn't matter what did this did to the people below them, what > mattered was looking good to the people OVER them. The result was probably > the largest famine in world history. > > I suspect something similar is happening now. Each regional authority > wants to prove that they are even more zealous in enforcing Covid rules > than the next. > > It's not so much a display of power as a display of subservience, but that > subservience is to the CCP bosses, not to the people. If people cry, > starve, burn, so what? If the middle ranks disappoint the upper bosses, > their own families will be the ones to cry, starve and burn, so it's worth > it to them to prove their fanatic loyalty. > Nevertheless, the central regime could decide to slacken off. Masks everywhere but no lockdowns unless the hospital ICU?s are 90% full, or something. That?s all they can do now that there are 40,000 cases a day, they can?t stop it. But they are heavily invested in a zero COVID policy which - correctly for the original strain - they claim they managed due to ter superior system. > Tara Maya > > > On Nov 29, 2022, at 10:29 PM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > You think they?re having the lockdowns just as a display of power, even > though it?s turning people against them and damaging the economy, the one > thing that the leadership knows has kept them in power this long? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 14:16:02 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 06:16:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <007d01d904c6$47755d90$d66018b0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Tara Maya via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review During the Great Leap Forward, regional authorities each wanted to look good to the top. So they competed with each other to claim a bigger harvest. It didn't matter what did this did to the people below them, what mattered was looking good to the people OVER them. The result was probably the largest famine in world history. I suspect something similar is happening now. Each regional authority wants to prove that they are even more zealous in enforcing Covid rules than the next. It's not so much a display of power as a display of subservience, but that subservience is to the CCP bosses, not to the people. If people cry, starve, burn, so what? If the middle ranks disappoint the upper bosses, their own families will be the ones to cry, starve and burn, so it's worth it to them to prove their fanatic loyalty. Tara Maya Tara I do thank you for that most insightful comment. It explains so much, I chose to leave the whole post in there unedited. My knowledge of the Great Leap Forward is supplied by my neighbor who was age 8 when local mobs ripped down a heavy metal gate off of a sturdy stone column after hearing a speech about how the commies needed metal. This gate was a huge ornate work of art in addition to being a swinging barrier. The mobs tore it down, and hauled it by hand by around twenty men, hurled it into a pile which contained stolen bicycles, cookware, anything they could find, melted it to make tanks. These tanks would be unsuitable for battle of course because scrap metal contains impurities (such as copper) which make recycled metal more expensive than the ore-extracted, if one insists on having the same physical characteristics. This is one reason why ?pot metal? is cheap and brittle. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 14:24:33 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 06:24:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <008e01d904c7$780903c0$681b0b40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis ? >?Nevertheless, the central regime could decide to slacken off. Masks everywhere but no lockdowns unless the hospital ICU?s are 90% full, or something. That?s all they can do now that there are 40,000 cases a day, they can?t stop it. But they are heavily invested in a zero COVID policy which - correctly for the original strain - they claim they managed due to ter superior system? Stathis Hey cool, idea: we get a bunch of us to sign up for Tiktok, (the Chinese equivalent of Twitter (I am told (no expert am I on these matters (I don?t use any of them)))) and make sure we spread the videos to Chinese citizens of locked down Chinese apartment buildings on fire, residents leaping to their deaths and so on. Result: rage, revolt, overthrow of a brutal regime, their plans to invade Taiwan are cancelled, World War 3 is averted, life goes on. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 15:01:02 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 09:01:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] flawed humans In-Reply-To: References: <002901d90457$63694710$2a3bd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Let's try this one: if you can react meaningfully with your environment, such as fleeing a fire, then you are conscious. bill w On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 8:13 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It seems to me that you are putting the cart before the horse. Can you > prove to us that you are conscious? Before asking if silicon life forms can > be conscious, shouldn?t you first demonstrate that humans can be conscious? > You may claim to be conscious, but chatbots and robots have also made that > claim. You may claim to know innately that you are conscious, but I request > something stronger than that. I don?t even claim to be conscious. I don?t > know what it means to be conscious and there is no consensus on a > definition. If you give a definition then I can at least determine if I am > conscious by that definition. Consciousness might as well be on the gender > spectrum, some believe in it and others don?t. > > On Nov 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > ? > > > >?I think we agree that humans are innately flawed in many ways. > > >?How about other animals? Are any of them flawed? In their niche they > seem perfectly adapted unless the niche changes a lot. bill w > > I suppose that depends on how you look at it Billw, but I would argue that > all known life forms are flawed in that they are mortal. Even if an > organism is one that multiplies by dividing, such that one could argue it > is in a sense an immortal being, it too is mortal: given enough time, that > species will go extinct, even without external pressure. > > On the other hand, if we had some kind of silicon-based consciousness, > then we could transfer ourselves over from an old substrate into a newer > one, so our existence would continue in a way that one could claim to be > the same as it was before the transfer. > > This all gets very murky and definition-dependent, so I don?t want to get > all tangled up. Rather I want to help you open your mind, ask questions > you never asked, such as that really fundamental question: is consciousness > substrate dependent? > > Well, all of it we know is on a carbon-based evolution-derived substrate, > however? that in itself is insufficient evidence that other substrates > cannot be the basis of consciousness. I don?t see a good reason why it > would be impossible for an alternative substrate to be the basis of > consciousness. Do you? > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 15:01:38 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 07:01:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001d01d904cc$a6670870$f3351950$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com I have my own approach to Marxism which seems to work pretty well. I read the manifesto and so on, decided to try it and found a way. We have in our world communist countries which get along with each other pretty well, such as North Korea and China. From that one can infer that there can be arbitrarily many communist countries, each with their own dictator running a central economy, and by extrapolation one could have an arbitrary group of people voluntarily joining a Marxist society which could exist within even a flaming capitalist country, with the Marxist notion of to each and from each and so on. Ja? There is an absolute limit to how big a Marxist society can be (8 billion or so) but it isn?t clear there is a lower limit, so we can imagine a kind of cult with 100 people from-ing and to-ing each other, or even just a family with one brutal dictator and the rest doing exactly as instructed, or even a couple, and most of us at some point have witnessed a couple like that, with one making all the decisions and the other telling her: OK dear, right away dear and so forth, but at some point she might get tired of having a proletariat who is insufficiently skilled at to-ing to her needs, so she throws him back. Then she is a Marxist society of one. Well with that size group I can experiment with true Marxism, so I chose to be an auto-Marxist, in parallel with my bride?s auto-Marxism in adjacent fashions (I am analogous to NK, she is analogous to China, each rules their own side of the bed.) Now I am the brutal dictator of me. I make myself do everything I say. I meet my own needs. Well, not every need, for there is still? mutually beneficial? em? trade between the two nano-dictatorships in the home? in accordance with our? abilities? but other than that? to me, according to my need, from me according to my ability. I demand it of me. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 15:32:37 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 07:32:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Stathis ? >?Nevertheless, the central regime could decide to slacken off. Masks everywhere but no lockdowns unless the hospital ICU?s are 90% full, or something. That?s all they can do now that there are 40,000 cases a day, they can?t stop it. But they are heavily invested in a zero COVID policy which - correctly for the original strain - they claim they managed due to ter superior system? Stathis Clearly their system isn?t working. I suppose that would depend on how one defines the term ?working.? If one is Chinese and gets feeling the symptoms, the best strategy might be to just keep a low profile for a coupla weeks, send out word the patient went on a pilgrimage to the grave of Karl Marx or John Lennon something, recover quietly in his apartment and hope no one finds out. spike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 20246 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 15:38:27 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 09:38:27 -0600 Subject: [ExI] post Message-ID: Somebody with whom I am not vary familiar,responded to a post of mine, saying that current animals are living in an environment not like what they evolved in - or words to that effect. I can't find that post. Please let me know who did it, as I'd like to hear more of that idea. JUst a one to two sentence post. (someone with a G name perhaps?) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 16:16:31 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 03:16:31 +1100 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 02:34, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > From: spike at rainier66.com > Subject: RE: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review > > > > > > > > From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Stathis ? > > > > >?Nevertheless, the central regime could decide to slacken off. Masks > everywhere but no lockdowns unless the hospital ICU?s are 90% full, or > something. That?s all they can do now that there are 40,000 cases a day, > they can?t stop it. But they are heavily invested in a zero COVID policy > which - correctly for the original strain - they claim they managed due to > ter superior system? Stathis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly their system isn?t working. I suppose that would depend on how one > defines the term ?working.? If one is Chinese and gets feeling the > symptoms, the best strategy might be to just keep a low profile for a > coupla > weeks, send out word the patient went on a pilgrimage to the grave of Karl > Marx or John Lennon something, recover quietly in his apartment and hope no > one finds out. It?s the classic way of dealing with an epidemic. It?s how the original SARS was stopped. It?s what they should have done as aggressively as possible, but didn?t, at the start in Wuhan. The two problems now are that it isn?t working because the infectivity of the current strain is too high and, on a cost - benefit analysis, the cost of the ongoing lockdowns is too high. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 16:47:00 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 08:47:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 02:34, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Clearly their system isn?t working. I suppose that would depend on how one defines the term ?working.? ? >?It?s the classic way of dealing with an epidemic. It?s how the original SARS was stopped. It?s what they should have done as aggressively as possible, but didn?t, at the start in Wuhan. The two problems now are that it isn?t working because the infectivity of the current strain is too high and, on a cost - benefit analysis, the cost of the ongoing lockdowns is too high. -- Stathis Papaioannou Ja Stathis, I see it as a kind of solution. My Chinese neighbor who witnessed the Great Leap (no particular direction specified) has educated me. He really does have a fundamentally different mindset, a very different attitude toward government than a typical American. From his point of view, if the government says do something, you damn well do it. He continues to be amazed by me and his own American-born son who go off asking if the order is legal. The son is American to the core but his Chinese father doesn?t really get the whole differing levels of government with differing rights and powers bit. To him, any official is government and it is all the same. I am imagining Chinese apartment buildings full of guys with his mindset. They are being locked into a tower with no egress allowed, even in a fire, authorities under orders to use lethal force to protect the proletariat against? a mild flu. My fond hope is that the outcome of all this is at least a big change in attitude. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 17:15:47 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 17:15:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 16:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I am imagining Chinese apartment buildings full of guys with his mindset. They are being locked into a tower with no egress allowed, even in a fire, authorities under orders to use lethal force to protect the proletariat against? a mild flu. > > spike > _______________________________________________ "mild flu" ??? There ain't no such animal. If you get flu you're in bed, out of commission for up to 7 days. (Assuming no other medical conditions - flu kills many people). As the doc said - "If you can walk into my clinic you haven't got flu! You've just got a bad cold." BillK From gadersd at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 17:28:23 2022 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 12:28:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] flawed humans In-Reply-To: References: <002901d90457$63694710$2a3bd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That is a very inclusive definition. I like it, but good luck convincing the world that that is all it takes to be conscious. Many would feel insulted if their God given ?divinity? were shared with the common cockroach. Humans feel the need to feel special beyond just being smarter than all the other animals. > On Nov 30, 2022, at 10:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Let's try this one: if you can react meaningfully with your environment, such as fleeing a fire, then you are conscious. bill w > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 8:13 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat > wrote: > It seems to me that you are putting the cart before the horse. Can you prove to us that you are conscious? Before asking if silicon life forms can be conscious, shouldn?t you first demonstrate that humans can be conscious? You may claim to be conscious, but chatbots and robots have also made that claim. You may claim to know innately that you are conscious, but I request something stronger than that. I don?t even claim to be conscious. I don?t know what it means to be conscious and there is no consensus on a definition. If you give a definition then I can at least determine if I am conscious by that definition. Consciousness might as well be on the gender spectrum, some believe in it and others don?t. > >> On Nov 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> >> ? >> >> >> >?I think we agree that humans are innately flawed in many ways. >> >> >?How about other animals? Are any of them flawed? In their niche they seem perfectly adapted unless the niche changes a lot. bill w >> >> I suppose that depends on how you look at it Billw, but I would argue that all known life forms are flawed in that they are mortal. Even if an organism is one that multiplies by dividing, such that one could argue it is in a sense an immortal being, it too is mortal: given enough time, that species will go extinct, even without external pressure. >> >> On the other hand, if we had some kind of silicon-based consciousness, then we could transfer ourselves over from an old substrate into a newer one, so our existence would continue in a way that one could claim to be the same as it was before the transfer. >> >> This all gets very murky and definition-dependent, so I don?t want to get all tangled up. Rather I want to help you open your mind, ask questions you never asked, such as that really fundamental question: is consciousness substrate dependent? >> >> Well, all of it we know is on a carbon-based evolution-derived substrate, however? that in itself is insufficient evidence that other substrates cannot be the basis of consciousness. I don?t see a good reason why it would be impossible for an alternative substrate to be the basis of consciousness. Do you? >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 18:52:00 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 10:52:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008701d904ec$d5587f40$80097dc0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, 30 November, 2022 9:16 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 16:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I am imagining Chinese apartment buildings full of guys with his mindset. They are being locked into a tower with no egress allowed, even in a fire, authorities under orders to use lethal force to protect the proletariat against? a mild flu. > > spike > _______________________________________________ "mild flu" ??? There ain't no such animal. If you get flu you're in bed, out of commission for up to 7 days. (Assuming no other medical conditions - flu kills many people). As the doc said - "If you can walk into my clinic you haven't got flu! You've just got a bad cold." BillK _______________________________________________ That depends on what strain of flu BillK. I was an early catcher of covid, that was the worst sick ever, took me over two months to get even close to normal. Caught again in July 2022. Covid test was showing positive before I felt symptoms. The positive line went past pink into deep purple, so I don't doubt it was really covid. Those daily tests were showing positive for two solid weeks plus a day or two with a fainter positive signal, but the symptoms never amounted to much. I was sleepy for about two days, never lost my appetite, nothing much on the way of congestion, no sneezing or runny nose, never really felt all that communist the whole time. If I were to compare to other flus over the years, I would rank this one about 20th percentile in severity, if that much. Probably more like 15th percentile. My bride caught it from me a coupla days later, tested positive for only ten days. She was down only for one, with similar symptoms: mostly sleepiness. My son caught it, tested positive for less than a week, scarcely noticed he had ever been sick. He didn't miss any activities, didn't suffer much. Slept a little longer. This virus morphed into a variant which doesn't do much, but we know it is highly contagious (it is STILL making the rounds at the high school) and has side effects. Months later, my sense of smell and taste are diminished to perhaps 10% what they were. I save a bundle: no point in buying escargot if I can't distinguish it from crud-encrusted garden slugs (which are free.) But all this gives me an idea. Give me a few hours to think. spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 19:00:33 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 11:00:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese numbers Message-ID: <000801d904ee$06da2ef0$148e8cd0$@rainier66.com> Ja I can see why China would be a bit concerned about this. Shown below are their numbers for since the covid nightmare started in Jan 2020. I personally think it started in China before that, about Sept 2019 and they aren't talking, but these are the numbers they are reporting: spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17193 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:35:33 2022 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 19:35:33 +0000 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <008701d904ec$d5587f40$80097dc0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> <008701d904ec$d5587f40$80097dc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 18:54, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > That depends on what strain of flu BillK. I was an early catcher of covid, that was the worst sick ever, took me over two months to get even close to normal. Caught again in July 2022. Covid test was showing positive before I felt symptoms. The positive line went past pink into deep purple, so I don't doubt it was really covid. Those daily tests were showing positive for two solid weeks plus a day or two with a fainter positive signal, but the symptoms never amounted to much. I was sleepy for about two days, never lost my appetite, nothing much on the way of congestion, no sneezing or runny nose, never really felt all that communist the whole time. If I were to compare to other flus over the years, I would rank this one about 20th percentile in severity, if that much. Probably more like 15th percentile. > > My bride caught it from me a coupla days later, tested positive for only ten days. She was down only for one, with similar symptoms: mostly sleepiness. My son caught it, tested positive for less than a week, scarcely noticed he had ever been sick. He didn't miss any activities, didn't suffer much. Slept a little longer. > > spike > _______________________________________________ The flu isn't Covid. They are both respiratory diseases, with some similar effects. But COVID-19 and the flu are caused by different viruses. COVID-19 is caused by a coronavirus called SARS-CoV-2, while flu is caused by influenza A and B viruses. The original influenza virus knocks people over, unless they have some protection from vaccination or a previous infection. If you get a bad cold you can often struggle into work, but usually this is not possible if you get the flu. Covid is a different case altogether. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 20:04:14 2022 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 14:04:14 -0600 Subject: [ExI] flawed humans In-Reply-To: References: <002901d90457$63694710$2a3bd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: And try to convince people that they are not only descended from an ape-like creature, but from a single-celled animal. You'd think that people who think they got kicked out of the Garden of Eden would have a lot more humility. bill On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:30 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That is a very inclusive definition. I like it, but good luck convincing > the world that that is all it takes to be conscious. Many would feel > insulted if their God given ?divinity? were shared with the common > cockroach. Humans feel the need to feel special beyond just being smarter > than all the other animals. > > On Nov 30, 2022, at 10:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Let's try this one: if you can react meaningfully with your environment, > such as fleeing a fire, then you are conscious. bill w > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 8:13 PM Gadersd via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> It seems to me that you are putting the cart before the horse. Can you >> prove to us that you are conscious? Before asking if silicon life forms can >> be conscious, shouldn?t you first demonstrate that humans can be conscious? >> You may claim to be conscious, but chatbots and robots have also made that >> claim. You may claim to know innately that you are conscious, but I request >> something stronger than that. I don?t even claim to be conscious. I don?t >> know what it means to be conscious and there is no consensus on a >> definition. If you give a definition then I can at least determine if I am >> conscious by that definition. Consciousness might as well be on the gender >> spectrum, some believe in it and others don?t. >> >> On Nov 29, 2022, at 8:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> ? >> >> >> >?I think we agree that humans are innately flawed in many ways. >> >> >?How about other animals? Are any of them flawed? In their niche they >> seem perfectly adapted unless the niche changes a lot. bill w >> >> I suppose that depends on how you look at it Billw, but I would argue >> that all known life forms are flawed in that they are mortal. Even if an >> organism is one that multiplies by dividing, such that one could argue it >> is in a sense an immortal being, it too is mortal: given enough time, that >> species will go extinct, even without external pressure. >> >> On the other hand, if we had some kind of silicon-based consciousness, >> then we could transfer ourselves over from an old substrate into a newer >> one, so our existence would continue in a way that one could claim to be >> the same as it was before the transfer. >> >> This all gets very murky and definition-dependent, so I don?t want to get >> all tangled up. Rather I want to help you open your mind, ask questions >> you never asked, such as that really fundamental question: is consciousness >> substrate dependent? >> >> Well, all of it we know is on a carbon-based evolution-derived substrate, >> however? that in itself is insufficient evidence that other substrates >> cannot be the basis of consciousness. I don?t see a good reason why it >> would be impossible for an alternative substrate to be the basis of >> consciousness. Do you? >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 22:35:59 2022 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 09:35:59 +1100 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 03:48, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > > > > > > > On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 02:34, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Clearly their system isn?t working. I suppose that would depend on how one > defines the term ?working.? ? > > > > >?It?s the classic way of dealing with an epidemic. It?s how the original > SARS was stopped. It?s what they should have done as aggressively as > possible, but didn?t, at the start in Wuhan. The two problems now are that > it isn?t working because the infectivity of the current strain is too high > and, on a cost - benefit analysis, the cost of the ongoing lockdowns is too > high. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > > > Ja Stathis, I see it as a kind of solution. > > > > My Chinese neighbor who witnessed the Great Leap (no particular direction > specified) has educated me. He really does have a fundamentally different > mindset, a very different attitude toward government than a typical > American. From his point of view, if the government says do something, you > damn well do it. He continues to be amazed by me and his own American-born > son who go off asking if the order is legal. > If you disagree with what the Court says is legal, that?s just your bad luck. > The son is American to the core but his Chinese father doesn?t really get > the whole differing levels of government with differing rights and powers > bit. To him, any official is government and it is all the same. > > > > I am imagining Chinese apartment buildings full of guys with his mindset. > They are being locked into a tower with no egress allowed, even in a fire, > authorities under orders to use lethal force to protect the proletariat > against? a mild flu. > > > > My fond hope is that the outcome of all this is at least a big change in > attitude. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Nov 30 23:49:56 2022 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 15:49:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] chinese fires, was:RE: book review In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d90481$cd1d44c0$6757ce40$@rainier66.com> <000e01d90483$d84de230$88e9a690$@rainier66.com> <9A32D593-E362-4F29-A39F-A8EB1AD4C6B7@taramayastales.com> <009301d904c7$78c46480$6a4d2d80$@rainier66.com> <004c01d904d0$fa5910f0$ef0b32d0$@rainier66.com> <004e01d904db$5e996380$1bcc2a80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b701d90516$73fbee10$5bf3ca30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >>?From his point of view, if the government says do something, you damn well do it. He continues to be amazed by me and his own American-born son who go off asking if the order is legal? >?If you disagree with what the Court says is legal, that?s just your bad luck? Stathis Ja. For my neighbor and plenty of other Asian imports, the government is all one big scary thing. There is no legislature, executive, judicial, no federal, state, county, local authority, none of that. The government never questions itself. Every level of government answers to the one above it, there is nothing analogous to state law overruling federal law (as we have in the USA.) Our system is complicated and hard to explain to one from a country where there is a guy up top who commands guys below him who command on down, with the hapless citizenry at the bottom of the power structure and no way to escape or appeal. That being said, the same neighbor noted that I appear to be friends with one of the local constables. Well, ja, I am: he?s a hell of a good guy, and is our representative with the scout troop. The local police department founded and sponsors our scout troop. So that guy comes by a lot, to deliver or pick up applications or sometimes just to say hello if he is in the hood. So I need to explain to my neighbor one can be friendly with the constables and suspicious of the feds at the same time, no logical contradiction at all. Two very different things are these. The federal cops, the FBI, was caught and convicted of falsifying evidence. They never really did anything to the guy. Of course that is going to arouse suspicion. Now we know the FBI falsifies evidence. The locals do not. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: