[ExI] us

[William Flynn Wallace]

None of this would be done if persuasion didn't work.
Unfortunately it works far too well  BillK

I do not agree with your premise.  Sure, plenty of persuasions of all types
are tried, but try to find the evidence that they do.  And esp. look at how
long a change lasts - often, according to social psychologists like me,
change only lasts a few weeks, if that.  Even monstrous changes, like
'getting saved' fade with time in most people who realize that it was an
emotional thing, not a rational thing.  How much propaganda do you think
goes on in Iran?  Plenty, I am supposing.  Now contrast that with a survey
that says that 2/3 of Iranians do not support a religious government.  I
highly doubt the Chinese will persuade many Uyghurs, but we will never
know.  If they were highly successful I think we would find that out, since
that would be great propaganda for the Chinese to publish openly.  bill w

On Tue, Nov 8, 2022 at 11:37 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. The indoctrination
> techniques definitely worked on me and I am generally a very rational
> person. When I was young I couldn’t; explain why evolution and other
> scientific theories were wrong, I just knew they were because the source of
> truth (Bible) implied those theories were wrong. I didn’t even notice the
> contradictions in that worldview until I was in my teens even though I was
> mathematically minded. It is exceptionally difficult for children raised in
> a particular ideology to see the contradictions within that ideology. My
> strong sense of rationality eventually detected the cognitive dissonance,
> but for most it never happens and the ideology sticks for life.
>
> I suspect that it is much easier for teenagers and adults to shirk off new
> ideologies and brainwashing since they already have a worldview in place to
> default to, which I think explains why the brainwashing didn’t work on the
> GIs. That’s why you have to get them when they’re young, really young.
>
> On Nov 8, 2022, at 9:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> We attained our neurological maturity around age 25.  Before that, just
> how dumb were we?  Were we very impressionable?  Able to be led around by
> older and wise others?  Or were we just a little bit of an independent
> thinker all along?
>
> Here's a phrase from today's paper?  "..she was part of a larger movement
> of teachers indoctrinating students with liberal ideology..."  Repub Ryan
> Walter said "There is no place for a teacher with a liberal political
> agenda in the classroom"  Conservative OK?
>
> (the teacher in Oklahoma has provided students with a link to a library
> that let them read banned books)
>
> Now I don't know how much you know about brainwashing and indoctrination.
> I don't know much.  But I do  know that extensive studies were done after
> GIs returned from North Korean prison camps where they had been subjected
> to brainwashing, some of them for years.
>
> Results:  they found no GI who was brainwashed by any definition.  The
> techniques simply did not work.  GIs pretended to go along with the program.
>
> Note that the GIs were not neurologically mature.
>
> Just how susceptible are our children to indoctrination?  Me?  I am a born
> contrarian and skeptic.  But I don't know how I would have been affected by
> such a program, though I suspect that nobody and nothing could have just
> wiped out my opinions and replaced them at any age.
>
> So I think this whole thing is sort of a straw man - few if any are
> attempting indoctrination, and few are fully affected, and most of those
> kids will develop different opinions before they leave school.
>
> Remember 'Don't trust anyone over 30?'  Teachers are like parents - they
> get ignored and what the peer group thinks is far more important.
>
> We received 'sermons' on all kinds of topics from parents and teachers and
> pastors throughout our youth.  How much stuck?  Of that that stuck, how
> much of it was thoughtless. believed just because we were told?   bill w
>
>
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