[ExI] A new theory of consciousness: conditionalism

Sat Aug 26 17:36:11 UTC 2023

On Sat, Aug 26, 2023, 1:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I am not fully understanding 'range of gradations of consciousness'.  What
> for example is 'partly conscious'?  Or the difference between an amoeba's
> consciousness and ours?  billw
>

I don't believe the idea of partial consciousness makes sense, I believe
there are just different contents of consciousness, which can be more or
less complex.

Jason

>
> On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 11:08 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 26, 2023, 10:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hard enough to define consciousness.  How about knowledge?  Where does
>>> it start?  The body knows thousands of things to do - digesting food,
>>> responding to pain, reflexes like kneejerks, various emotions - all of
>>> these built in.
>>>
>>
>>
>> One implications of this is that there may be many independent minds
>> operating within our bodies and brains. Within a reflexive, for example,
>> are neurons conditionally reacting to a stimulus. The consciousness of such
>> a reflex would be very simple, however, rather like that of a thermostat.
>>
>> I think something like this is necessary as I will elaborate on below.
>>
>>
>> Then you have CRs, like staying away from a hot stove on which you have
>>> burned yourself.
>>>
>>> Then reinforcement type knowledge - what to do to gain
>>> positive reinforcers and avoid punishments.  Verbal knowledge.  Motor
>>> knowledge.  Etc.
>>>
>>> All animals, down to the amoeba, possess reflexes. A bit up from that
>>> are conditioned reflexes.
>>>
>>> So - just how are you using the term 'knowledge' in your discussion of
>>> consciousness?    If knowledge equal consciousness then by some definitions
>>> the amoeba is conscious   bill w
>>>
>>
>> I think consciousness was an early introduction in life. It may have
>> begun in it's simplest form with bacteria that react to light, or touch. I
>> think a range of gradations of consciousness is necessary in the
>> phylogenetic tree, as otherwise we face the prospect of unconscious
>> "zombie" parents giving birth to a fully conscious self-aware child.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 9:28 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you John for your thoughts. I few notes below:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 7:17 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 1:47 PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> *> At a high level, states of consciousness are states of knowledge,*
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is certainly true, but what about the reverse, does a high
>>>>> state of knowledge imply consciousness?  I'll never be able to prove it but
>>>>> I believe it does but of course for this idea to be practical there must be
>>>>> some way of demonstrating that the thing in question does indeed have
>>>>> a high state of knowledge, and the test for that is the Turing Test,
>>>>> and the fact that my fellow human beings have passed the Turing test is the
>>>>> only reason I believe that I am NOT the only conscious being in the
>>>>> universe.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I believe there's an identity between states of knowledge and
>>>> states of consciousness. That is almost implicit in the definition of
>>>> consciousness:
>>>> con- means "with"
>>>> -scious- means "knowledge"
>>>> -ness means "the state of being"
>>>> con-scious-ness -> the state of being with knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> Then, the question becomes: what is a state of knowledge? How do we
>>>> implement or instantiate a knowledge state, physically or otherwise?
>>>>
>>>> My intuition is that it requires a process of differentiation, such
>>>> that some truth becomes entangled with the system's existence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *> A conditional is a means by which a system can enter/reach a state
>>>>>> of knowledge (i.e. a state of consciousness) if and only if some fact is
>>>>>> true.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then "conditional" is not a useful philosophical term because you
>>>>> could be conscious of and know a lot about Greek mythology. but none of it
>>>>> is true except for the fact that Greek mythology is about Greek mythology.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Here, the truth doesn't have to be some objective truth, it can be
>>>> truth of what causes ones mind to reach a particular state. E.g., here it
>>>> would be the truth of what particular sensory data came into the scholar's
>>>> eyes as he read a book of Greek mythology.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> >  *Consciousness is revealed as an immaterial, ephemeral relation,
>>>>>> not any particular physical thing we can point at or hold.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I mostly agree with that but that doesn't imply there's anything
>>>>> mystical going on, information is also immaterial and you can't point to *ANY
>>>>> PARTICULAR* physical thing
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree.
>>>>
>>>>  (although you can always point to *SOME *physical thing) and I
>>>>> believe it's a brute fact that consciousness is the way information feels
>>>>> when it is being processed intelligently.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I like this analogy, but I think it is incomplete. Can information (by
>>>> itself) feel? Can information (by itself) have meaning?
>>>>
>>>> I see value in making a distinction between information and "the system
>>>> to be informed." I think the pair are necessary for there to be meaning, or
>>>> consciousness.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However there is nothing ephemeral about information, as far as we can
>>>>> tell the laws of physics are unitary, that is information can't be
>>>>> destroyed and the probability of all possible outcomes must add up to 100%.
>>>>> For a while Stephen Hawking thought that Black Holes destroyed information
>>>>> but he later changed his mind, Kip Thorne still thinks it may do so but he
>>>>> is in the minority.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree information can't be destroyed. But note that what I called
>>>> ephemeral was the conditional relation, which (at least usually) seems to
>>>> occur and last during a short time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *> All we need to do is link some action to a state of knowledge.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At the most fundamental level that pretty much defines what a computer
>>>>> programmer does to make a living.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> * > It shows the close relationship between consciousness and
>>>>>> information, where information is defined as "a difference that makes a
>>>>>> difference",*
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And the smallest difference that still makes a difference is the
>>>>> difference between one and zero, or on and off.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The bit is the simplest unit of information, but interestingly, there
>>>> can also be fractional bits. For example, if there's a 75% chance of some
>>>> event, like two coin tossings not both being heads, and I tell you that two
>>>> coin tossings were not both heads, then I have only
>>>> communicated -log2(0.75) ~= 0.415 bits of information to you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> > *It shows a close relationship between consciousness and
>>>>>> computationalism,*
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I strongly agree with that,  it makes no difference if the thing
>>>>> doing that computation is carbon-based and wet and squishy, or
>>>>> silicon-based and dry and hard.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely  ��
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  >  It is also supportive of functionalism and it's multiple
>>>>>> realizability, as there are many possibile physical arrangements that lead
>>>>>> to conditionals.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> YES!
>>>>>
>>>>> *> It's clear there neural networks firings is all about conditionals
>>>>>> and combining them in whether or not a neuron will fire and which other
>>>>>> neurons have fired binds up many conditional relations into one larger
>>>>>> one. It seems no intelligent (reactive, deliberative, contemplative,
>>>>>> reflective, etc.) process can be made that does not contain at least some
>>>>>> conditionals. As without them, there can be no responsiveness. This
>>>>>> explains the biological necessity to evolve conditionals and apply them in
>>>>>> the guidance of behavior. In other words, consciousness (states of
>>>>>> knowledge) would be strictly necessary for intelligence to evolve.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with all of that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Happy to hear that. Thanks for all your feedback.
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
>>>>> xex
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> .
>>>>>
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