[ExI] teachers
Jason Resch
jasonresch at gmail.com
Sun Aug 27 17:44:37 UTC 2023
On Sunday, August 27, 2023, <efc at swisscows.email> wrote:
> Thank you Jason,
>
> So would that imply then that there is no true randomness and that it is
> only because our limited point of view, that it looks random?
> There is a "meta level" of machinery kind of?
Yes, super determinism says there are hidden variables, determined by
machinery we can't access, but moreover, everything we do to try to measure
these hidden variables, by whatever processes we choose, flipping coins,
picking numbers in our head, using digits of Pi or e, using pseudorandom
number generators, anything, whatever we pick and whatever method we
choose, the universe will choose hidden variables such that they will yield
the Bell probabilities giving the false appearance of random quantum
collapse, where there are not. But if this is true, and if we use constants
in math like Pi or e, or SQRT(2), to choose how to set the rotation of a
polarizing filter when measuring two entangled photons, then somehow the
universe must have known that you would be using, say, the digits of
SQRT(2) when it created the entangled photons years earlier before you
measured them. So that in a sense, the photon pair creation event must have
known how you would be measuring them, and then generated them in a way
that would yield the expected quantum probabilities. It would also know you
wouldn't in the last moment, change your mind to use the digits of Pi to
choose the angle of rotation for the polarizing filter. Super determinism
is the idea that the whole universe is a conspiracy to make us falsely
believe in quantum probabilities.
>
> Sorry if I'm not making sense, it is because I did not understand the
> example. ;)
If it's hard to understand it's because it's so hard to believe anyone
would propose this as a serious theory, but that's the length people will
go to maintain their idea of a unique self. (I think it's rather like the
resistance to the idea that the earth wasn't the center of the universe or
solar system, at least I think it comes from the same place).
Jason
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Sun, 27 Aug 2023, Jason Resch wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 27, 2023, efc--- via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Thank you very much Stuart, I was just about to ask for a book and
>> you already thought of that.
>>
>> But what about superdeterminism?
>>
>>
>> In my view this is the worst of all possible interpretations. It is the
>> theory that the laws of physics are conspiring to always fool
>> us. (Something like Descartes's evil demon). For example, if we choose to
>> do a Bell experiment and set our orientations according to
>> some random sequence, super determinism says the correlations of the
>> particles are also determined by the same processes that drive
>> the random number generator we use to set our orientations.
>>
>> Okay, this is weird, but not logically impossible.
>>
>> But now consider if we set our orientations according to the digits of
>> Pi, did the processes that determine particle orientations
>> also determine the digits of Pi? At this point I think super determinism
>> is no longer defensible.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wouldn't that also be one of the better "candidates" even though it
>> goes
>> against our intuition?
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 27 Aug 2023, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>> On 2023-08-26 15:17, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
>> Hello Stuart,
>>
>> Just a quick question from someone not very
>> knowledgeable of cutting
>> edge physics.
>>
>> You say that
>>
>> If you believe that a copy of you can truly be
>> you, then you can relax because you
>> are already immortal. You don't need to copy
>> yourself because there are already
>> plenty of, if not infinite numbers of, you strewn
>> about the multiverse.
>>
>>
>> What I wonder is, are infinite numbers of you and
>> multiverses supported by proof or is it one of
>> many interpretations of current theories?
>>
>> Best regards, Daniel
>>
>>
>> Hi Daniel,
>>
>> It is not proven in a mathematical sense, but many worlds
>> (MWI) is the only interpretation of quantum
>> mechanics that is complete. All that you need for many worlds
>> to be true is that the Schrodinger equation be
>> true. The alternatives require extra stuff.
>>
>> For example, collapse interpretations need an additional
>> mechanism by which measurement can somehow cause a
>> quantum particle that is spread out everywhere at once to
>> suddenly be somewhere specific at faster than the
>> speed of light. It requires consciousness to be a fundamental
>> property of the universe in the sense that like
>> the next level of videogame, nothing is rendered into reality
>> until you look at it. Basically, if collapse
>> interpretations are real, then we are very likely in a
>> simulation run by some intelligent designer who is
>> trying to save computational resources by not rendering
>> anything into reality until a simulated person
>> interacts with it.
>>
>> Many worlds allows particles to always be everywhere at once
>> because wherever the particle is, there is a
>> separate you there to witness it there.
>>
>> The other alternative is the DeBroglie-Bohm pilot wave
>> interpretation which require a second equation that
>> describes how the wave function is a pilot wave that pushes a
>> particle along its path to be true in addition
>> to the Schrodinger wave equation which describes the wave
>> function.
>>
>> So to summarize:
>> 1. Copenhagen/collapse interpretations needs additional
>> assumptions about the laws of physics requiring
>> conscious observers in order to function properly. Trees do
>> not fall in the woods or make noise unless you
>> are there to appreciate it.
>> 2. Debroglie-Bohm Pilot Wave: This interpretation requires
>> additional "helper" equations to allow quantum
>> mechanics to function by keeping track of hidden variables.
>> 3. Superdeterminism: everything that happens including your
>> own thoughts and decisions are unerringly
>> following a script that has existed from moment of the big
>> bang.
>>
>> Or . . .
>>
>> 4. MWI: The Schrondinger wave equation is all you need and
>> there is enough real estate out there to cover
>> every possibility that the wavefunction entails.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxvQ3Wyw2M4
>>
>> Sean Carroll does an excellent job covering this in his
>> various You Tube videos or his book "Something Deeply
>> Hidden". I generally don't believe we live in a simulation
>> and therefore prefer many worlds over conscious
>> collapse theories, but every once in a while nature throws me
>> a curve ball that makes me adjust my posterior
>> probabilities like this: https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17
>> /1194212940/question-mark-space-webb-telescope-photo
>>
>> I hope that helped.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Stuart LaForge
>>
>>
>>
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