[ExI] teachers

[Jason Resch]

Interesting, I found we had this same conversation about 7 years ago on
this list:

https://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2016-November/thread.html#90681

There's no reason to repeat all the same points, they're all (as far as I
can tell) made here.

Jason

On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 5:22 AM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, 4:58 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello Adrian and Jason,
>>
>> I don't think that anyone here actually believes the universe is
>> conspiring against anyone, but my interpretation is that it is just a way
>> to convey meaning.
>>
>
> This is what one has to literally believe of superdeterminism is true,
> which is why I don't think superdeterminism is believable by anyone who
> grasps what it entails. It's the least believable theory in science that's
> been seriously put forward. It's far less believable even than wave
> function collapse, which seems quite reasonable in comparison.
>
> If you don't like the word "conspiring" here then you can substitute it
> with "adaptively changing in response to our actions in a manner that will
> lead us to a false conclusion", but I think conspiring conveys this well,
> but let me know if you have another word that you think better communicates
> this.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>> Perhaps we could find a less loaded term?
>>
>> Analogies and words relating to human reactions are dangerous. I don't
>> know what better term to use, but maybe you could find a common
>> definition
>> that would make it easier to continue the discussion without the word
>> "conspiring"?
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 29 Aug 2023, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >       On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 3:08 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >       On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:02 PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >       On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 5:32 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >       On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 1:59 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >       On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 1:47 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> >       wrote:
>> >       Can you at least understand why I might believe superdeterminism
>> implies a malicious,
>> >       adversarial, conspiratorial process?
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes.  However, I believe that attributing such motives and malice to
>> physics is incorrect, even in this
>> > case.
>> >
>> >
>> > Hmm...on review, this might have been a bit too curt.  Some examples,
>> then:
>> >
>> > "Why can't I accelerate past the speed of light?  This 'relativity'
>> nonsense is physics conspiring against
>> > me!"
>> >
>> > "Why can't I have a perpetual motion machine?  Entropy is a conspiracy
>> against me!"
>> >
>> > "Why can't I know in advance how long a computation will take and if it
>> will ever complete?  Every time I
>> > try, something conspires against me!"
>> >
>> > I believe that claims that superdeterminism is a malicious,
>> adversarial, conspiratorial process are similarly
>> > incorrect.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I think you are still missing something. These aren't comparable
>> situations.
>> >
>> >
>> > I should elaborate:
>> >
>> > If you understood the unique strangeness of superdeterminism, I would
>> expect you to say something along the lines of:
>> >
>> > "Yes I can see why you might think nature is conspiring to always fool
>> us, however it is not for the reason X"
>> >
>> >
>> > It is not, as it is not - so far as we can tell - a sentient entity
>> capable of conspiring.
>> >
>> >
>> > It is something which must be adaptively change in response to our
>> activities, choosing values such that we mistakenly believe the
>> > quantum probabilities cannot be hidden variables, when in fact, they
>> are.
>> >
>> > You don't have to anthropomorphize this entity, nor bestow it with
>> sentience, but it must be something that responds (adversarially
>> > and adaptively) to our own decisions and actions, with the effect that
>> it acts in a manner that we are led to a false conclusion.
>> >
>> > Jason
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20230830/65ab784c/attachment.htm>