From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Dec  1 05:06:27 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 06:06:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Irrational mechanics,
 draft Ch. 6. Creative evolution toward quality. Also,
 the 2nd test flight of Starship and the OpenAI drama.
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3WJDi2JSk4sUdm+Cm7Y=q8+-py+h5pF98=u3obEMW_bw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKTCJycCdQvTOgwAunsekZ__E9af1CyoY_zw=e8QLHHnnKm1cQ@mail.gmail.com>

<John: I don't think it's necessary to invoke retrocausal influences to
explain why we wouldn't feel like a puppet with somebody else pulling the
strings even if we were as deterministic as a cuckoo clock.>

I agree. It is not necessary to invoke retrocausal influences to explain
why we FEEL like we have free will. Wolfram's argument based on
computational irreducibility (the fastest way to know with certainty that
something will happen is to wait and see if it happens) explains this well
enough. But I still make a difference between feeling that we have free
will and actually having free will.

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 9:29?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 2:29?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>  >* "**A history can be really deterministic (that is, uniquely
>> determined) without being uniquely determined by an initial state.I have
>> many examples in mind, here is one. Think of the traveling salesman. He
>> goes from city 1 to city 2 ... to city N (or back to city 1 through all
>> other cities) following the global rule that the total distance (or, more
>> generally, the total cost) must be minimal. As you know, this is a hard
>> computational problem."*
>>
>
> In that case the minimal distance the salesman must travel is determined
> by the relative position of the cities the salesman must travel through.
> Yes, that is a hard computational problem but at least it is computational,
> not everything is. A better example would be a computer running a short
> simple program to find the first even number greater than 2 that is not the
> sum of two prime numbers and then stop. Will it ever stop? Nobody knows
> even though the computer is 100% deterministic. That's why you can be
> deterministic but not predictable. Even you can't always predict what you
> are going to do, there are even times where you are absolutely positively
> 100% certain you know what you're going to do, but when the time actually
> comes you end up doing something entirely different. So I don't think it's
> necessary to invoke retrocausal influences to explain why we wouldn't feel
> like a puppet with somebody else pulling the strings even if we were as
> deterministic as a cuckoo clock.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3WJDi2JSk4sUdm%2BCm7Y%3Dq8%2B-py%2Bh5pF98%3Du3obEMW_bw%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3WJDi2JSk4sUdm%2BCm7Y%3Dq8%2B-py%2Bh5pF98%3Du3obEMW_bw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  1 13:47:31 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 07:47:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI ChatGPT Outperforms Humans in Providing Social Advice
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armizGmRg7St6w3+8_+XW5L3TSNvqCgA+LjGQUdzF59nhxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armizGmRg7St6w3+8_+XW5L3TSNvqCgA+LjGQUdzF59nhxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYgVDZiCxf12UPLURo9R+u55Rwp6D+Pm3E8zkrWpNmKNw@mail.gmail.com>

AIs better at advice?  That does not surprise me.  But - who is doing the
rating?  Who says they are any better at judging advice?  Excellent advice
is often worthless because it is not followed (probably not followed more
than followed).  The proof of the pudding is changes in client's behavior.
 No glimmer of that data being collected here.

billw

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 2:25?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> AI ChatGPT Outperforms Humans in Providing Social Advice, Study Finds
> November 30, 2023
>
> <
> https://www.impactlab.com/2023/11/30/ai-chatgpt-outperforms-humans-in-providing-social-advice-study-finds/#more-163789
> >
>
> Quotes:
> ChatGPT has undeniably established itself as a reliable source of
> technical information, but can it also excel in offering social
> advice? A recent study published in the journal Frontiers in
> Psychology explores this question, revealing that later versions of
> ChatGPT surpass professional columnists in dispensing personal advice.
>
> A groundbreaking study compared ChatGPT?s responses to those of human
> advice columnists in addressing social dilemmas. Participants
> overwhelmingly perceived ChatGPT?s advice as more balanced, complete,
> empathetic, helpful, and superior overall compared to professional
> advice.
> ----------------
>
> The complete research report is available here:
> <https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2023.1281255/full>
> (It is lengthy and technical).  :)
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  1 15:11:32 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 09:11:32 -0600
Subject: [ExI] scifi
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbGqmwrBUGNu8N3nKFPuZp=iEuRZEwRwo+XHnZH3J+S+w@mail.gmail.com>

I have been reading sci-fi since I was about ten - 70 years.  Hundreds of
books, many re-read.  I have learned to follow the advice: suspend your
disbelief.  When a writer creates an alien race and its customs, I accept
it and read on, though I might find it all ridiculous.

So the aliens I read about cannot be 'wrong'.  But what about the humans?
Then I can differ and complain.

What would you do if you met an alien? (let's disregard the
circumstances).  Humans would faint, have anxiety attacks, flee, physically
attack the alien, and so on.

So what do the humans in sci-fi books do?  None of that.  Remark on how
weird or ugly they are - that's all.  I find this unbelievable.  Unhuman.

What would you do?  Of course you don't know, but you could speculate.
----------
Currently reading 'The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet' by Becky Chambers.

I have read several sci-fi books by female authors - Ann Leckie for one.
It is detectable that the author is female, but not that obvious.  Chambers
is blatantly obvious; writing about emotions and relationships far beyond
any other sci-fi author I know.  (except for Yarrow - see below)

This book is the first of a trilogy that won the Hugo for best series.
They could have easily been re-written, taking out all the sci-fi tech and
aliens.  I do enjoy it this way, though.

Another: 'Fourth Wing' by Rebecca Yarrows - a totally smash hit, as is the
sequel 'Iron Flame'.  More of a fantasy since the tech is about equal to
our 18th century stuff, and there are lots of dragons and magic.  (and lots
of sex and jealousies - the two main characters are about 20 years old and
it shows)

It also could have been written without those, just focusing on the
emotions and relationships.  But again, I do enjoy it as is.

Too bad we did not have more female writers from the beginning. Just a few.

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  1 16:04:15 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 10:04:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] gripe of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYv=yfjjbP9Vdv8ipY1_=NG3Sd=Rf8KPdz9D2Va-DoRDw@mail.gmail.com>

On bread packages and many other products, they are opened by a twistie.
But is it dextrorotatory or levorotatory?  Sometimes I can see but
sometimes I can't.  So I just start twisting and find out.

This is among millions of other things that need standardization.  Such a
little gripe. Such an easy thing to fix.

bill w
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Dec  1 16:36:34 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 16:36:34 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Are transhumanists becoming the bad guys?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.397.1701365653.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.397.1701365653.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <b3510570-1cf8-4060-a701-57432c748610@zaiboc.net>

On 30/11/2023 17:34, bill w wrote:
> This theme is very popular with scifi writers, as we know.? I would 
> not call people who want changes in our bodies and brains a 'tiny' 
> part of the population.? ?bill w

Good point, Bill.

I've noticed this too. although only a tiny proportion of the population 
would actually identify themselves as transhumanists, an increasing 
number of people appear to hold transhumanist attitudes, expectations 
and hopes.

Although, here in Blighty, the transhumanist scene twenty-or-so years 
ago pretty much consisted of 'six blokes in a pub' in London, with a few 
scattered individuals that we would discover every now and then, and now 
there are thousands (mostly younger people, but not exclusively by any 
means).

Admittedly, a few thousand is still a tiny proportion of the population, 
but it's a hell of a bigger proportion than we had in 1997, when I 
discovered there was a name for my own inclinations, and that other 
people existed with the same inclinations. That's quite a moment, 
discovering that you're not the only one.

Ben
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec  2 02:52:55 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 18:52:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] scifi
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbGqmwrBUGNu8N3nKFPuZp=iEuRZEwRwo+XHnZH3J+S+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbGqmwrBUGNu8N3nKFPuZp=iEuRZEwRwo+XHnZH3J+S+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4vJ_syMS4UdV1_Wdfy0fXgp76oVCjk1556vPvD=5Eg-A@mail.gmail.com>

I think we can see aliens or rather their works around Tabby's star
and 24 others in a cluster.

It looks like they have constructed large data centers and as a bet
they uploaded from some biological state long ago

Keith

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 7:11?AM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have been reading sci-fi since I was about ten - 70 years.  Hundreds of books, many re-read.  I have learned to follow the advice: suspend your disbelief.  When a writer creates an alien race and its customs, I accept it and read on, though I might find it all ridiculous.
>
> So the aliens I read about cannot be 'wrong'.  But what about the humans?  Then I can differ and complain.
>
> What would you do if you met an alien? (let's disregard the circumstances).  Humans would faint, have anxiety attacks, flee, physically attack the alien, and so on.
>
> So what do the humans in sci-fi books do?  None of that.  Remark on how weird or ugly they are - that's all.  I find this unbelievable.  Unhuman.
>
> What would you do?  Of course you don't know, but you could speculate.
> ----------
> Currently reading 'The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet' by Becky Chambers.
>
> I have read several sci-fi books by female authors - Ann Leckie for one.  It is detectable that the author is female, but not that obvious.  Chambers is blatantly obvious; writing about emotions and relationships far beyond any other sci-fi author I know.  (except for Yarrow - see below)
>
> This book is the first of a trilogy that won the Hugo for best series.  They could have easily been re-written, taking out all the sci-fi tech and aliens.  I do enjoy it this way, though.
>
> Another: 'Fourth Wing' by Rebecca Yarrows - a totally smash hit, as is the sequel 'Iron Flame'.  More of a fantasy since the tech is about equal to our 18th century stuff, and there are lots of dragons and magic.  (and lots of sex and jealousies - the two main characters are about 20 years old and it shows)
>
> It also could have been written without those, just focusing on the emotions and relationships.  But again, I do enjoy it as is.
>
> Too bad we did not have more female writers from the beginning. Just a few.
>
> bill w
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEbGqmwrBUGNu8N3nKFPuZp%3DiEuRZEwRwo%2BXHnZH3J%2BS%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com.


From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch  Sat Dec  2 08:28:21 2023
From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2023 08:28:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Irrational mechanics,
 draft Ch. 6. Creative evolution toward quality. Also,
 the 2nd test flight of Starship and the OpenAI drama.
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3=kb5u75hD0ZcdTAq+X7y+gWcS4P1v6RG87nfQSxvJ_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMGbscjeiuYHm2xjrtTj678CJw0S+A+tRtrOkXJo7pNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3mEO=_wQZOM8bs0bMgwLnVagOH5DyWs7VL5F7mkWZqEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeQuixG6nfMBxYp8XfL9hRGdh+UGqtxj38NWc0xEGxr1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv14ECrTjC5z8cB4uyfdSTQoWC+z2fQBiEKOfJg0+Rn-pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfEsaektFY7B7ecuxuEsmAad9FznVzdiHSc9kXvNALbig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3WJDi2JSk4sUdm+Cm7Y=q8+-py+h5pF98=u3obEMW_bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycCdQvTOgwAunsekZ__E9af1CyoY_zw=e8QLHHnnKm1cQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3=kb5u75hD0ZcdTAq+X7y+gWcS4P1v6RG87nfQSxvJ_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <n-dpoP-ZHZrOSDc7qHrjE_dE-DVjRqjcP1EJk8z0gwPF9akCwq8ha00b7wcy2MAVs8wT87kqOKssFrBYEhiCCu630qqIdwM0l4IO4upCVv4=@protonmail.ch>

<John: feeling is the most important thing in the world, or at least that's the way I feel.>

So do I! We agree on something!

<being determined by the external environment...>

My whole point is that we are determined by the global whole of which we are an irreducible part, but not by the *external* environment (the rest of the world without us).

<You would remain uniquely determined by initial conditions in the far past even if retro causality turned out to exist>

Not so, unless you add that the initial conditions in the far past are partly determined by your thoughts and actions here and now. This sounds seriously retrocausal, so I guess it is better to avoid speaking of causality (which is not a condition for science, as Bertrand Russell was one of the first to realize) and speak only of correlations spread all over spacetime. Wittgenstein docet.

<I like to think that my actions were not Random and that I always had a reason for them, but I have to admit that just like everybody else sometimes I do things for no reason, sometimes I am UNreasonable.>

I guess at times random (as far as we can tell atm) quantum events in your brain get amplified to the macroscopic world and constitute "atoms of free choice" (ref. Penrose) out of which the macroscopic phenomenon that is your free agencies emerge.
And here's to unreasonable irrationality! It's the stuff of which dreams are made before becoming facts. Irrational mechanics!

--
Giulio Prisco
https://linktr.ee/giulioprisco
giulioprisco at protonmail.ch

On Friday, December 1st, 2023 at 1:49 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> "I still make a difference between feeling that we have free will and actually having free will."
>
> If feeling is not involved then I have no idea what "free will "means. And feeling is the most important thing in the world, or at least that's the way I feel.
>
>>>"To me, actually having free will means not being uniquely determined by the rest of the world."
>
> If you were not determined by anything in the world then you were not determined at all, and there is a word for that sort of thing, random. Actually, being determined by the external environment is not necessarily a bad thing, after all that's the reason we have eyes and the reason we don't constantly walk into walls, we are determined to walk around them and not try to walk through them.
>
>>> "So, in a universe where Laplacian determinism holds, I don't have free will because I am uniquely determined by initial conditions in the far past. "
>
> You would remainuniquely determined by initial conditions in the far past even if retro causality turned out to exist, which I very much doubt.
>
>>> "In a universe where only what I call libertarian determinism holds, but not Laplacian determinism, I have free will because I'm an irreducible part of the whole."
>
> Regardless of what eventually turns out to be true, you must be an irreducible part of the whole, UNLESS your actions were random. I like to think that my actions were not Random and that I always had a reason for them, but I have to admit that just like everybody else sometimes I do things for no reason, sometimes I am UNreasonable.
>
> John K Clark See what's on my new list at [Extropolis](https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis)
> iau
>
>>> the minimal distance the salesman must travel is determined by the relative position of the cities the salesman must travel through. Yes, that is a hard computational problem but at least it is computational, not everything is. A better example would be a computer running a short simple program to find the first even number greater than 2 that is not the sum of two prime numbers and then stop. Will it ever stop? Nobody knows even though the computer is 100% deterministic. That's why you can be deterministic but not predictable. Even you can't always predict what you are going to do, there are even times where you are absolutely positively 100% certain you know what you're going to do, but when the time actually comes you end up doing something entirely different. So I don't think it's necessary to invoke retrocausal influences to explain why we wouldn't feel like a puppet with somebody else pulling the strings even if we were as deterministic as a cuckoo clock.
>>>
>>> John K Clark
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3%3Dkb5u75hD0ZcdTAq%2BX7y%2BgWcS4P1v6RG87nfQSxvJ_g%40mail.gmail.com.
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From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch  Sat Dec  2 08:42:09 2023
From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2023 08:42:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The OpenAI drama. A powerful AI discovery that could threaten
 humanity?
Message-ID: <_ZmgD3FrLAFwByDHq84ITPGaF3hFgk01XjKFdqpUeCb02nIX3mOAIRf4H8IwydCvc0M3Bs0nkyGmJNYppwSKbjlxNH7SdZx3RMtCyD5WosU=@protonmail.ch>

The OpenAI drama. A powerful AI discovery that could threaten humanity?
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/the-openai-drama

--
Giulio Prisco
https://linktr.ee/giulioprisco
giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
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From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch  Sat Dec  2 09:12:48 2023
From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2023 09:12:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] TEST: please send me PGP-encrypted email
Message-ID: <qM02MZjWC-n7G-tMqvTSh71LAXVcH8P9eptxZf4woYka9kvCU3woxAQOSRnsO6glCVwa3zw8Gf5V-cgyjUNybyqma6S31CZcOqaDx8hO3-0=@protonmail.ch>

Hi, I'm thinking to become more privacy-conscious and use this mailbox more. Could you send me PGP-encrypted mail to test? Public key attached.

I don't really need more privacy because I'm an open book, and independent thinking is not illegal... yet. But one day it could. Also, I want to show solidarity to those who need strong privacy.

Best - Giulio

--
Giulio Prisco
https://linktr.ee/giulioprisco
giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
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=e3lj
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Dec  2 12:02:44 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2023 12:02:44 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Are transhumanists becoming the bad guys?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.404.1701505730.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.404.1701505730.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <b8c62110-ee0e-4b8e-b077-20e6f7ae1d6f@zaiboc.net>


On 02/12/2023 08:28, Daniel wrote:
> it was the first time I heard that specifically transhumanists were
>
> part of the conspiracy to kill the soul.

Ha, I like that expression!

Glad to be part of the conspiracy to kill the soul, where 'soul' means 
the superstitious concept of a ghostly other self that somehow evades 
all the laws of physics and serves as an aethereal ear for priests to 
twist to make you do what they want.

Which, of course, makes me a good guy! It's the dualists that are the 
real bad guys.

Ben the soul-killing conspirator.
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Dec  2 12:10:08 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2023 12:10:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fwd:  Are transhumanists becoming the bad guys?
In-Reply-To: <b8c62110-ee0e-4b8e-b077-20e6f7ae1d6f@zaiboc.net>
References: <b8c62110-ee0e-4b8e-b077-20e6f7ae1d6f@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <a4cd89ab-41eb-4c19-8d3b-35397e609700@zaiboc.net>


On 02/12/2023 08:28, Daniel wrote:
> it was the first time I heard that specifically transhumanists were
>
> part of the conspiracy to kill the soul.

Ben Replied:

Ha, I like that expression!

Glad to be part of the conspiracy to kill the soul, where 'soul' means 
the superstitious concept of a ghostly other self that somehow evades 
all the laws of physics and serves as an aethereal ear for priests to 
twist to make you do what they want.

Which, of course, makes me a good guy! It's the dualists that are the 
real bad guys.

Ben the soul-killing conspirator.



Actually, I just thought: If transhumanists are /part of/ the conspiracy 
to kill the soul, who else is on on it?
I'd like to know who we are assumed to be in bed with (in the 
conspiratorial sense) (I mean apart from Satanists, that one's a given 
(proper Satanists, not the cartoon ones that the catholic church invented)).

Ben
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sat Dec  2 12:35:54 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2023 12:35:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] scifi
In-Reply-To: <mailman.404.1701505730.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.404.1701505730.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5a2284d5-be24-4bdf-a107-93456c2bf8ee@zaiboc.net>


On 02/12/2023 08:28, bill w wrote:
> Currently reading 'The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet' by Becky 
> Chambers.
> I have read several sci-fi books?by female authors - Ann Leckie for 
> one. It is detectable that the author is female, but not that obvious. 
> Chambers is blatantly obvious; writing about emotions and 
> relationships far beyond any other sci-fi author I know.? (except for 
> Yarrow - see below)
> This book is the first of a trilogy that won the Hugo for best 
> series.? They could have easily been re-written, taking out all the 
> sci-fi tech and aliens.? I do enjoy it this way, though.
> Another: 'Fourth Wing' by Rebecca Yarrows - a totally smash hit, as is 
> the sequel 'Iron Flame'.? More of a fantasy since the tech is about 
> equal to our 18th century stuff,?and there are lots of dragons and 
> magic.? (and lots of sex and jealousies - the two main characters are 
> about 20 years old and it shows)
> It also could have been written without those, just focusing on the 
> emotions and relationships.? But again, I do enjoy it as is.
> Too bad we did not have more female writers from the beginning. Just a 
> few.


Try Linda Nagata for a rare example of a female that can write 
convincing sf. It was her depiction of an uploaded spaceship pilot that 
set me off down the road of thinking deeply about the old 'is a copy of 
you really you?' question, and to conclude that it has to be, despite 
some unintuitive side-effects.

Justina Robson is also quite good, but tends more towards fantasy in her 
later works. Her first novel, "Silver Screen" was promising, but 
ultimately fizzled out and I found it disappointing at the end. A sequel 
might have been able to rescue it, but one never appeared. I'm currently 
reading "Natural History", which is showing more promise. Her later 
"Quantum Gravity" books are good fantasy, which I can recommend, but I 
wouldn't call them sf.

Ben
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From ExiMod at protonmail.com  Sat Dec  2 20:14:30 2023
From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2023 20:14:30 +0000
Subject: [ExI] TEST: please send me PGP-encrypted email
In-Reply-To: <qM02MZjWC-n7G-tMqvTSh71LAXVcH8P9eptxZf4woYka9kvCU3woxAQOSRnsO6glCVwa3zw8Gf5V-cgyjUNybyqma6S31CZcOqaDx8hO3-0=@protonmail.ch>
References: <qM02MZjWC-n7G-tMqvTSh71LAXVcH8P9eptxZf4woYka9kvCU3woxAQOSRnsO6glCVwa3zw8Gf5V-cgyjUNybyqma6S31CZcOqaDx8hO3-0=@protonmail.ch>
Message-ID: <Xe7JY8xC_Qp9875bU5pz0Z33XmWqXpcY0bA7jL__fKPt_hVECgogdf6g9SV4eTby9Zt0hKmnttmUttN6CVMFg1vV_gDrOKJOy_-LPMDQYfA=@protonmail.com>

Hi Giulio

Extropy-chat is a publicly accessible email list and does not use encryption.

I presume you are referring to private emails, not going through extropy-chat.
To ensure privacy, it may be more convenient for your contacts to obtain a free Proton Mail email account. As you know, this service offers end-to-end encryption for all emails sent between Proton Mail users.
Additionally, to provide end-to-end encryption between Proton Mail and external email providers, Proton Mail provides two options: [Password-protected Emails(new window)](https://proton.me/support/password-protected-emails) and PGP encryption.
https://proton.me/support/how-to-use-pgp

Regards, ExiMod

Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email.

On Saturday, 2 December 2023 at 09:12, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hi, I'm thinking to become more privacy-conscious and use this mailbox more. Could you send me PGP-encrypted mail to test? Public key attached.
>
> I don't really need more privacy because I'm an open book, and independent thinking is not illegal... yet. But one day it could. Also, I want to show solidarity to those who need strong privacy.
>
> Best - Giulio
>
> --
> Giulio Prisco
> https://linktr.ee/giulioprisco
> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Dec  2 21:58:55 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2023 22:58:55 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd:  Are transhumanists becoming the bad guys?
In-Reply-To: <a4cd89ab-41eb-4c19-8d3b-35397e609700@zaiboc.net>
References: <b8c62110-ee0e-4b8e-b077-20e6f7ae1d6f@zaiboc.net>
 <a4cd89ab-41eb-4c19-8d3b-35397e609700@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <2beb8e26-6190-e8cd-4d71-b22e789d59f2@swisscows.email>


On Sat, 2 Dec 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:

> Actually, I just thought: If transhumanists are part of the conspiracy to kill the soul, who else is on on it?

Oh, I guess the usual crowd... the WEF, the UN, the trilateral
commision, the bilderbergs etc.

I'd rather ask, who is _not_ in it? That's where you should begin your
search, with the _least_ obvious candidate.

Might I suggest... the boysprouts of america for instance! ;)

Best regards, 
Daniel


From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Dec  2 22:00:10 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2023 23:00:10 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Are transhumanists becoming the bad guys?
In-Reply-To: <89e5e007-eb2b-795f-7d17-d845d27d2fea@swisscows.email>
References: <mailman.404.1701505730.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b8c62110-ee0e-4b8e-b077-20e6f7ae1d6f@zaiboc.net>
 <89e5e007-eb2b-795f-7d17-d845d27d2fea@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <fd45ca9c-484b-cb33-9a47-909af26638f6@swisscows.email>

Hello Ben,

On Sat, 2 Dec 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:

> Ha, I like that expression!

You're welcome to use it free of charge! ;)

Best regards, Daniel



From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch  Sun Dec  3 05:29:00 2023
From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2023 05:29:00 +0000
Subject: [ExI] TEST: please send me PGP-encrypted email
In-Reply-To: <Xe7JY8xC_Qp9875bU5pz0Z33XmWqXpcY0bA7jL__fKPt_hVECgogdf6g9SV4eTby9Zt0hKmnttmUttN6CVMFg1vV_gDrOKJOy_-LPMDQYfA=@protonmail.com>
References: <qM02MZjWC-n7G-tMqvTSh71LAXVcH8P9eptxZf4woYka9kvCU3woxAQOSRnsO6glCVwa3zw8Gf5V-cgyjUNybyqma6S31CZcOqaDx8hO3-0=@protonmail.ch>
 <Xe7JY8xC_Qp9875bU5pz0Z33XmWqXpcY0bA7jL__fKPt_hVECgogdf6g9SV4eTby9Zt0hKmnttmUttN6CVMFg1vV_gDrOKJOy_-LPMDQYfA=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <TmXWeVvCWs_CfKn1Q58Y58PWylFQp7Dk2AKldGWV-pVBbL6c6UEa9FglwZr2godVPNWxKQvE4VHIdslZniX8waQOsVO7iIuDoq6ChgHtSZI=@protonmail.ch>

On Saturday, December 2nd, 2023 at 9:14 PM, ExiMod via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hi Giulio
>
> Extropy-chat is a publicly accessible email list and does not use encryption.
>
> I presume you are referring to private emails, not going through extropy-chat.
> To ensure privacy, it may be more convenient for your contacts to obtain a free Proton Mail email account. As you know, this service offers end-to-end encryption for all emails sent between Proton Mail users.
> Additionally, to provide end-to-end encryption between Proton Mail and external email providers, Proton Mail provides two options: [Password-protected Emails(new window)](https://proton.me/support/password-protected-emails) and PGP encryption.
> https://proton.me/support/how-to-use-pgp
>
> Regards, ExiMod

Thanks, but I guess many people prefer to continue using whatever email service they are using, instead of getting a new one. PGP support in PM solves the problem.

> Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email.
>
> On Saturday, 2 December 2023 at 09:12, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi, I'm thinking to become more privacy-conscious and use this mailbox more. Could you send me PGP-encrypted mail to test? Public key attached.
>>
>> I don't really need more privacy because I'm an open book, and independent thinking is not illegal... yet. But one day it could. Also, I want to show solidarity to those who need strong privacy.
>>
>> Best - Giulio
>>
>> --
>> Giulio Prisco
>> https://linktr.ee/giulioprisco
>> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 09:41:55 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 02:41:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
Message-ID: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>

I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...

One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
"species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
"us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
society.

I welcome science fiction along these lines...

-Kelly

From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 10:06:10 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 11:06:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Irrational mechanics,
 draft Ch. 6. Creative evolution toward quality. Also,
 the 2nd test flight of Starship and the OpenAI drama.
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3ksRajnrsVDReEpBOBiLaipRDEmOytkFmD6MVna4r8FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMGbscjeiuYHm2xjrtTj678CJw0S+A+tRtrOkXJo7pNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3mEO=_wQZOM8bs0bMgwLnVagOH5DyWs7VL5F7mkWZqEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeQuixG6nfMBxYp8XfL9hRGdh+UGqtxj38NWc0xEGxr1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv14ECrTjC5z8cB4uyfdSTQoWC+z2fQBiEKOfJg0+Rn-pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfEsaektFY7B7ecuxuEsmAad9FznVzdiHSc9kXvNALbig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3WJDi2JSk4sUdm+Cm7Y=q8+-py+h5pF98=u3obEMW_bw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycCdQvTOgwAunsekZ__E9af1CyoY_zw=e8QLHHnnKm1cQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3=kb5u75hD0ZcdTAq+X7y+gWcS4P1v6RG87nfQSxvJ_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <n-dpoP-ZHZrOSDc7qHrjE_dE-DVjRqjcP1EJk8z0gwPF9akCwq8ha00b7wcy2MAVs8wT87kqOKssFrBYEhiCCu630qqIdwM0l4IO4upCVv4=@protonmail.ch>
 <CAJPayv3ksRajnrsVDReEpBOBiLaipRDEmOytkFmD6MVna4r8FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyf16FKE_ucUt3tUWdxHg_fX_CLVLdBP7p8O-SyTUTd_9w@mail.gmail.com>

<John: paradoxes would be produced unless there was some sort of strict
censorship regarding the type of information that we are and not allowed to
transmit into the past.>

Some scientists e.g. Novikov and Forward think that things always work out
self-consistently. This is suggested by the example of billiard balls that
loop in time through wormholes, worked out by Thorne et. al. No censorship
is imposed, but the solutions are always self-consistent.

I prefer to think that the universe tries to keep everything
self-consistent in a given timeline, but introduces another timeline when
self-consistency is impossible in the original timeline.

<And it seems to me a vast, perhaps infinite, intellect (a.k.a. God) would
be required to figure out what information was safe to transport into the
past so as to avoid all paradoxes>

You don't have to call this entity God if you don't want to. You can call
it the cosmic operating system, or just the universe like more and more
people do.

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 3:29?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 3:28?AM 'Giulio Prisco' via extropolis <
> extropolis at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> *> "My whole point is that we are determined by the global whole of which
>> we are an irreducible part, but not by the *external* environment (the rest
>> of the world without us).**This sounds seriously retrocausal"*
>>
>
> Me plus the rest of the world is the entire world, and I find it as
> difficult to believe in retrocausality as others have in Many Worlds,
> especially when it's not needed and other explanations for the weird
> quantum realm exist.
>
> It's hard to believe that if I study hard enough now I can improve the D I
> got in a history exam when I was in the fourth grade. It's true that if you
> don't take quantum mechanics into account General Relativity allows for the
> existence of a closed timelike curve, but when you add in quantum mechanics
> such a time tunnel would **probably** collapse before it could be used.
> We can't be absolutely certain it's impossible until we have a better
> understanding of how gravity works at the quantum level, but I have a very
> strong hunch it's impossible because otherwise paradoxes would be produced
> unless there was some sort of strict censorship regarding the type of
> information that we are and  not allowed to transmit into the past. And it
> seems to me a vast, perhaps infinite, intellect (a.k.a. God) would be
> required to figure out what information was safe to transport into the past
> so as to avoid all paradoxes and what information is unsafe so that only
> information that was absolutely useless because it couldn't change anything
> would be allowed to be transmitted into the past. But it's not a good
> idea to conjure up God in scientific theories.
>
>
>> >  * "I guess it is better to avoid speaking of causality (which is not
>> a condition for science, as Bertrand Russell was one of the first to
>> realize)"*
>
>
> Yes, there is no law of logic that demands every event have a cause,  but
> if the thing behind the curtain of free will is just randomness then having
> "free will" is a pretty mundane thing.
>
> John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
> pmt
>
> iau
>
>>
>>
>>
>> the minimal distance the salesman must travel is determined by the
>>>> relative position of the cities the salesman must travel through. Yes, that
>>>> is a hard computational problem but at least it is computational, not
>>>> everything is. A better example would be a computer running a short simple
>>>> program to find the first even number greater than 2 that is not the sum of
>>>> two prime numbers and then stop. Will it ever stop? Nobody knows even
>>>> though the computer is 100% deterministic. That's why you can be
>>>> deterministic but not predictable. Even you can't always predict what you
>>>> are going to do, there are even times where you are absolutely positively
>>>> 100% certain you know what you're going to do, but when the time actually
>>>> comes you end up doing something entirely different. So I don't think it's
>>>> necessary to invoke retrocausal influences to explain why we wouldn't feel
>>>> like a puppet with somebody else pulling the strings even if we were as
>>>> deterministic as a cuckoo clock.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3ksRajnrsVDReEpBOBiLaipRDEmOytkFmD6MVna4r8FQ%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3ksRajnrsVDReEpBOBiLaipRDEmOytkFmD6MVna4r8FQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 12:12:26 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 12:12:26 +0000
Subject: [ExI] KISS retires and becomes an avatar band
Message-ID: <CAL_armj0-N1WnCPowgAt8nguaHeaSQ3ppNv7gu2M3zRVsbUyMg@mail.gmail.com>

KISS exits the stage and leaves its avatar band to rock and roll all
night, forever.

The rock icons have figured out a way to keep playing after
retirement: as a virtual band created by the impresarios behind ABBA
Voyage.
By Burt Helm       02 Dec 2023

<https://www.fastcompany.com/90989900/kiss-final-concert-avatar-virtual-band-pophouse>

Quote:
It was time for their avatars?Demon, the Starchild, Catman, and
Spaceman?to take over the performance as colossal figures that,
through a combination of LED screen projection, lasers, and heavy
metal smoke and pyrotechnics, appeared three dimensional and much
larger than life.

KISS had been transfigured into that higher form: licensed
intellectual property. Their avatars could now roam into the
multiverse, the metaverse, and with any luck, some kind of an
extended run in Vegas.
----------------------

Humans can do so much more in the virtual universe.
Will we eventually leave reality and make our own reality?

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 16:23:32 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 08:23:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>

" next few centuries of transhumanism,"

I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
completion within decades, not centuries.

Keith

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
>
> One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
> the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
> "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
> selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
> longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
> river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
> "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
> society.
>
> I welcome science fiction along these lines...
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 17:04:01 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 11:04:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] goons
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEapgG7g2XSgFc-ZD5AN+e127k2Q4LVRTshzBB7VZQrHUg@mail.gmail.com>

Right here in my home county:  a bunch of police officers who did horrible
things to people, mostly blacks.  You have to read this!

https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2023/11/30/how-a-goon-squad-of-deputies-got-away-with-years-of-police-brutality-in-mississippi/71752907007/

Do we think this is a totally isolated case?  Ha!
bill w
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Dec  3 17:44:34 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 18:44:34 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>

Hmm, I think I've read about something like that, in one or more science 
fiction books. Sadly they did not leave enough of an imprint for me to 
remember the names of them. And the fact that the divergence was so big as 
to have created separate species was not the main plot, but just a 
parenthesis.

As for the fate of humanity, depending on what "go to completion" means, 
I'm voting for many, many more centuries and not decades.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:

> " next few centuries of transhumanism,"
>
> I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
> completion within decades, not centuries.
>
> Keith
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
>>
>> One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
>> the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
>> "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
>> selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
>> longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
>> river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
>> "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
>> society.
>>
>> I welcome science fiction along these lines...
>>
>> -Kelly
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 22:23:15 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 15:23:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>

ChatGPT says that, "one notable example is the works of Peter F.
Hamilton, whose sci-fi novels often include humans who have evolved
into subspecies, influenced by technology, ideology, and biology." Has
anyone read Hamilton's books? Worth the read??

-Kelly

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 10:45?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Hmm, I think I've read about something like that, in one or more science
> fiction books. Sadly they did not leave enough of an imprint for me to
> remember the names of them. And the fact that the divergence was so big as
> to have created separate species was not the main plot, but just a
> parenthesis.
>
> As for the fate of humanity, depending on what "go to completion" means,
> I'm voting for many, many more centuries and not decades.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > " next few centuries of transhumanism,"
> >
> > I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
> > completion within decades, not centuries.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
> >>
> >> One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
> >> the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
> >> "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
> >> selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
> >> longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
> >> river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
> >> "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
> >> society.
> >>
> >> I welcome science fiction along these lines...
> >>
> >> -Kelly
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 23:20:54 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 16:20:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI ChatGPT Outperforms Humans in Providing Social Advice
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armizGmRg7St6w3+8_+XW5L3TSNvqCgA+LjGQUdzF59nhxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armizGmRg7St6w3+8_+XW5L3TSNvqCgA+LjGQUdzF59nhxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnDp7dvj+btRqP9xSYEGJZfHTF+qoqamqonkbSZ6bktiGg@mail.gmail.com>

I very consistently use ChatGPT when writing sensitive emails to
squeeze out the Aspherger's type phrases I picked up after years of
programming. It consistently fixes my tone and puts more humanity into
my communications than I am able to do by myself. It's saved my butt
quite a few times now. I just write the email I want to with the "fuck
yous" and tell ChatGPT to make it nice and viola! I get a nicely
phrased email suitable for humans.

-Kelly

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 1:24?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> AI ChatGPT Outperforms Humans in Providing Social Advice, Study Finds
> November 30, 2023
>
> <https://www.impactlab.com/2023/11/30/ai-chatgpt-outperforms-humans-in-providing-social-advice-study-finds/#more-163789>
>
> Quotes:
> ChatGPT has undeniably established itself as a reliable source of
> technical information, but can it also excel in offering social
> advice? A recent study published in the journal Frontiers in
> Psychology explores this question, revealing that later versions of
> ChatGPT surpass professional columnists in dispensing personal advice.
>
> A groundbreaking study compared ChatGPT?s responses to those of human
> advice columnists in addressing social dilemmas. Participants
> overwhelmingly perceived ChatGPT?s advice as more balanced, complete,
> empathetic, helpful, and superior overall compared to professional
> advice.
> ----------------
>
> The complete research report is available here:
> <https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2023.1281255/full>
> (It is lengthy and technical).  :)
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 23:37:39 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 23:37:39 +0000
Subject: [ExI] AI ChatGPT Outperforms Humans in Providing Social Advice
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDp7dvj+btRqP9xSYEGJZfHTF+qoqamqonkbSZ6bktiGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armizGmRg7St6w3+8_+XW5L3TSNvqCgA+LjGQUdzF59nhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnDp7dvj+btRqP9xSYEGJZfHTF+qoqamqonkbSZ6bktiGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg0VCPn4Cno8X=vqaXVPQoTMP+22f8Ue0CX5RWYmwt93g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 3 Dec 2023 at 23:23, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I very consistently use ChatGPT when writing sensitive emails to
> squeeze out the Aspherger's type phrases I picked up after years of
> programming. It consistently fixes my tone and puts more humanity into
> my communications than I am able to do by myself. It's saved my butt
> quite a few times now. I just write the email I want to with the "fuck
> yous" and tell ChatGPT to make it nice and viola! I get a nicely
> phrased email suitable for humans.
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________


That's a good use for ChatGPT.
Maybe it could also help Elon Musk talk to X customers
and improve his language! :)

BillK

From dsunley at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 23:46:07 2023
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 16:46:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkTQJUpMCQGMfW_Su22tX2sG7+B1yHy-E=ebJCxkbfv0bA@mail.gmail.com>

This fragmentation dynamic is /the/ major theme of Diaspora, by Greg Egan,
as it affects both biological and digital sentience, human-descended and
otherwise.

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 3:25?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ChatGPT says that, "one notable example is the works of Peter F.
> Hamilton, whose sci-fi novels often include humans who have evolved
> into subspecies, influenced by technology, ideology, and biology." Has
> anyone read Hamilton's books? Worth the read??
>
> -Kelly
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 10:45?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hmm, I think I've read about something like that, in one or more science
> > fiction books. Sadly they did not leave enough of an imprint for me to
> > remember the names of them. And the fact that the divergence was so big
> as
> > to have created separate species was not the main plot, but just a
> > parenthesis.
> >
> > As for the fate of humanity, depending on what "go to completion" means,
> > I'm voting for many, many more centuries and not decades.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
> >
> > > " next few centuries of transhumanism,"
> > >
> > > I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
> > > completion within decades, not centuries.
> > >
> > > Keith
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> > > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
> > >>
> > >> One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
> > >> the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
> > >> "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
> > >> selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
> > >> longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
> > >> river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
> > >> "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
> > >> society.
> > >>
> > >> I welcome science fiction along these lines...
> > >>
> > >> -Kelly
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> extropy-chat mailing list
> > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 23:48:42 2023
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 16:48:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkTQJUpMCQGMfW_Su22tX2sG7+B1yHy-E=ebJCxkbfv0bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTQJUpMCQGMfW_Su22tX2sG7+B1yHy-E=ebJCxkbfv0bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQPnP=Q0rJK-ys-2FQ1+ych+x1XYauH=0AfmnLU+Qx4xw@mail.gmail.com>

"Diaspora" and Egan's "Permutation City" should be required reading. For
everyone, really, but especially for this list.

They're both significantly less remote than they used to be.

https://www.amazon.com/Diaspora-Greg-Egan-ebook/dp/B00E83YOEI

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 4:46?PM Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:

> This fragmentation dynamic is /the/ major theme of Diaspora, by Greg Egan,
> as it affects both biological and digital sentience, human-descended and
> otherwise.
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 3:25?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> ChatGPT says that, "one notable example is the works of Peter F.
>> Hamilton, whose sci-fi novels often include humans who have evolved
>> into subspecies, influenced by technology, ideology, and biology." Has
>> anyone read Hamilton's books? Worth the read??
>>
>> -Kelly
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 10:45?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hmm, I think I've read about something like that, in one or more science
>> > fiction books. Sadly they did not leave enough of an imprint for me to
>> > remember the names of them. And the fact that the divergence was so big
>> as
>> > to have created separate species was not the main plot, but just a
>> > parenthesis.
>> >
>> > As for the fate of humanity, depending on what "go to completion" means,
>> > I'm voting for many, many more centuries and not decades.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Daniel
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>> >
>> > > " next few centuries of transhumanism,"
>> > >
>> > > I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
>> > > completion within decades, not centuries.
>> > >
>> > > Keith
>> > >
>> > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
>> > > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
>> > >>
>> > >> One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
>> > >> the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
>> > >> "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
>> > >> selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
>> > >> longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
>> > >> river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
>> > >> "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
>> > >> society.
>> > >>
>> > >> I welcome science fiction along these lines...
>> > >>
>> > >> -Kelly
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> extropy-chat mailing list
>> > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > >
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Dec  4 02:43:30 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2023 18:43:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68ae744e100fe74ac29471154bfc00f5@sollegro.com>

On 2023-12-03 14:23, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:

> ChatGPT says that, "one notable example is the works of Peter F.
> Hamilton, whose sci-fi novels often include humans who have evolved
> into subspecies, influenced by technology, ideology, and biology." Has
> anyone read Hamilton's books? Worth the read??


Another sci-fi novel about human subspecies is an oldie but still has 
merit: H.G Wells, "The time Machine". The Eloi and the Morlocks qualify 
as human subspecies. Also, the "Dune" series by Frank Herbert features 
Guild Navigators and Bene Tleilaxu who have have evolved to the point 
where they no longer resemble base-line humans. While not serious 
science fiction, I would say that the mutants in the Marvel comics such 
as the X-Men are a human subspecies.

Also, while never really explored in-story, in the Star Trek franchise, 
the relatively common occurrences of humans interbreeding with alien 
species to produce half-Vulcans and half-Klingons, suggests that rather 
than being independently evolved other species, Humans, Vulcans (and by 
extension, Romulans), and Klingons seem to be subspecies of the same 
space-faring progenitor species that might have seeded them on their 
home-worlds.

There really isn't any other good scientific explanation for their 
mysterious genetic compatibility. Doubly so if Spock and his fellow 
half-breed are fertile themselves. It could also explain why the 
majority of aliens in the Star Trek are so phenotypically similar to 
humans as to look like people with prosthetics and make up on. :)

Stuart LaForge






From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Dec  4 05:46:29 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 21:46:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQqqWYPEA7yUGjjuUsbVQ9yaCq1kLGcH47GoJo_Cyo8Jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
>
> One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
> the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
> "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
> selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
> longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
> river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
> "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
> society.
>
> I welcome science fiction along these lines...
>

This seems unlikely.  If you have the tech to create non-interfertile
branches of humanity, you likely also have the tech to create offspring for
any given set of individuals from said non-interfertile branches.

I once wrote some sci-fi (the intended publisher rejected it) in a
space-opera-ish setting where humans created catgirls (homo sapiens with
mostly aesthetic feline features, initial generations created via cloning
with a heavy bias toward females as part of the attempted disguise) in an
effort to present some "non-humans" to aliens who had put restrictions on
human activity (basically, get the catgirls to swipe, barter for, or
otherwise obtain certain alien tech that the aliens had forbidden giving to
humans until the humans could invent it on their own).  The fact that they
could crossbreed with humans was among the factors cited by the aliens in
classifying them as human and thus subject to the same restrictions.  (Then
said creators ran into a case of, "just because you made them, does not
necessarily mean they're loyal to you.")
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Dec  4 08:53:51 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 09:53:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium on December 14, 2023
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyffNi_ANeRGMYJcgtDZY9aTUEpCpCZbZGLJojUP1fK6oA@mail.gmail.com>

Terasem Colloquium on December 14, 2023, 10am-1pm ET via Zoom. AI, machine
consciousness. Stellar speakers: Ben Goertzel, Stefano Vaj, Mika Johnson,
Blake Lemoine, Bill Bainbridge, Vitaly Vanchurin. You are invited!
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/terasem-colloquium-december-14-2023
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Dec  4 09:19:28 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 10:19:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeDM3zkPS_dVxSA86sc7Vg2i-xi3Yo9VHcu=aGvbcV0JQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 5:25?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> " next few centuries of transhumanism,"
>
> I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
> completion within decades, not centuries.
>

The fate of humanity will not go to completion for billions of years.


>
> Keith
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
> >
> > One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
> > the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
> > "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
> > selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
> > longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
> > river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
> > "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
> > society.
> >
> > I welcome science fiction along these lines...
> >
> > -Kelly
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Dec  4 09:26:38 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 10:26:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQPnP=Q0rJK-ys-2FQ1+ych+x1XYauH=0AfmnLU+Qx4xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTQJUpMCQGMfW_Su22tX2sG7+B1yHy-E=ebJCxkbfv0bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQPnP=Q0rJK-ys-2FQ1+ych+x1XYauH=0AfmnLU+Qx4xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfa0RriKeqVHmq+h-ecSjrZ4QV3Xtj1OvRpBg2Mhcci8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 12:49?AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "Diaspora" and Egan's "Permutation City" should be required reading. For
> everyone, really, but especially for this list.
>
> They're both significantly less remote than they used to be.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Diaspora-Greg-Egan-ebook/dp/B00E83YOEI
>

Yes, plus everything else by Greg Egan up to and including Zendegi. I
haven't been impressed by Egan's works after Zendegi. I still have to read
his last novel, "Scale."


>
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 4:46?PM Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This fragmentation dynamic is /the/ major theme of Diaspora, by Greg
>> Egan, as it affects both biological and digital sentience, human-descended
>> and otherwise.
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 3:25?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> ChatGPT says that, "one notable example is the works of Peter F.
>>> Hamilton, whose sci-fi novels often include humans who have evolved
>>> into subspecies, influenced by technology, ideology, and biology." Has
>>> anyone read Hamilton's books? Worth the read??
>>>
>>> -Kelly
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 10:45?AM efc--- via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hmm, I think I've read about something like that, in one or more
>>> science
>>> > fiction books. Sadly they did not leave enough of an imprint for me to
>>> > remember the names of them. And the fact that the divergence was so
>>> big as
>>> > to have created separate species was not the main plot, but just a
>>> > parenthesis.
>>> >
>>> > As for the fate of humanity, depending on what "go to completion"
>>> means,
>>> > I'm voting for many, many more centuries and not decades.
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> > Daniel
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, 3 Dec 2023, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > " next few centuries of transhumanism,"
>>> > >
>>> > > I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
>>> > > completion within decades, not centuries.
>>> > >
>>> > > Keith
>>> > >
>>> > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
>>> > > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
>>> > >>
>>> > >> One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad"
>>> is
>>> > >> the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism,
>>> different
>>> > >> "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
>>> > >> selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
>>> > >> longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
>>> > >> river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
>>> > >> "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
>>> > >> society.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I welcome science fiction along these lines...
>>> > >>
>>> > >> -Kelly
>>> > >> _______________________________________________
>>> > >> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> > >
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > extropy-chat mailing list
>>> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> > >
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch  Mon Dec  4 09:29:49 2023
From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2023 09:29:49 +0000
Subject: [ExI] TEST: please send me PGP-encrypted email
In-Reply-To: <qM02MZjWC-n7G-tMqvTSh71LAXVcH8P9eptxZf4woYka9kvCU3woxAQOSRnsO6glCVwa3zw8Gf5V-cgyjUNybyqma6S31CZcOqaDx8hO3-0=@protonmail.ch>
References: <qM02MZjWC-n7G-tMqvTSh71LAXVcH8P9eptxZf4woYka9kvCU3woxAQOSRnsO6glCVwa3zw8Gf5V-cgyjUNybyqma6S31CZcOqaDx8hO3-0=@protonmail.ch>
Message-ID: <bBnx54CIxLAG1uKai9TKp62Lx-NNojXrXz8j0sP_WfWFbhdf9_4YN76O51iosXPQ9TfHdaS7Hruik4Qxb2XisTweHntq7xfBwBShDkqGn2o=@protonmail.ch>

Thanks to those who have helped so far. So far it seems that Proton Mai's PGP bridge is usable and works well. Another test: please send me your PGP public key, I'll send you encrypted email to test.

--
Giulio Prisco
https://linktr.ee/giulioprisco
giulioprisco at protonmail.ch


On Saturday, December 2nd, 2023 at 10:12 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulioprisco at protonmail.ch> wrote:


> Hi, I'm thinking to become more privacy-conscious and use this mailbox more. Could you send me PGP-encrypted mail to test? Public key attached.
> 

> I don't really need more privacy because I'm an open book, and independent thinking is not illegal... yet. But one day it could. Also, I want to show solidarity to those who need strong privacy.
> 

> Best - Giulio
> 

> 

> --
> Giulio Prisco
> https://linktr.ee/giulioprisco
> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Dec  4 11:13:08 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 12:13:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who is younger than 40? 30? 20?
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfvWKb-J-5Y4YRawyZZpnEZFPe4FTp=CfrBzcPqyj66sA@mail.gmail.com>

We old farts of my generation (I?m 66) were among the first to talk of
wildly futuristic sci/tech with a wildly optimistic attitude in the 80s and
90s, often on this very mailing list. We have done what we could.

Where are the next generations? Are you younger than 40? Younger than 30?
Perhaps younger than 20? What do you plan to do to keep the spirit of
Extropy going?

Related: Is e/acc the new Extropy? Do you call yourself e/acc?
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From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Dec  4 12:03:48 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 13:03:48 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Who is younger than 40? 30? 20?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfvWKb-J-5Y4YRawyZZpnEZFPe4FTp=CfrBzcPqyj66sA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfvWKb-J-5Y4YRawyZZpnEZFPe4FTp=CfrBzcPqyj66sA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5809e895-d781-2644-e012-ec987d4f1c52@swisscows.email>

Hello Giulio,

I'm right at the upper limit. I don't like to attach labels to myself, but 
if pressed, I might (depending on the company and how much I enjoy 
provoking the people present) call myself capitalist, libertarian, 
republican, anarcho-capitalist, human, philosopher or freethinker. ;)

Jokes aside, my passion is individual freedom and autonomy and I believe 
science and technology is an immense help in achieving that.

I order to make that happen on a small scale, some examples of what I do 
are:

* I talk about it with people in the hope of inspiring someone.
* I've worked in the technology business all my life thus indirectly 
contributing to research and development.
* I teach people about computers/linux/devops etc.
* Rarely, from time to time, I've managed to get an article into my 
national newspaper.
* I engage in tax planning to withdraw money from a system I do not 
believe in and redirect it into projects I do believe in.
* I host a technology meetup since 8 years back.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Giulio Prisco wrote:

> We old farts of my generation (I?m 66) were among the first to talk of wildly futuristic sci/tech with a wildly optimistic attitude
> in the 80s and 90s, often on this very mailing list. We have done what we could.
> Where are the next generations? Are you younger than 40? Younger than 30? Perhaps younger than 20? What do you plan to do to keep the
> spirit of Extropy going?
> 
> Related: Is e/acc the new Extropy? Do you call yourself e/acc?
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKTCJyfvWKb-J-5Y4YRawyZZpnEZFPe4FTp%3DCfrBzcPqyj66sA%40mail.gmail.com.
> 
>

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Dec  4 12:10:57 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 05:10:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <68ae744e100fe74ac29471154bfc00f5@sollegro.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <68ae744e100fe74ac29471154bfc00f5@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnC4ZmFfFojp86A70ovZFQMq-iF8G8M9a7e5_woisE-+0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 7:44?PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>

> Also, while never really explored in-story, in the Star Trek franchise,
> the relatively common occurrences of humans interbreeding with alien
> species to produce half-Vulcans and half-Klingons, suggests that rather
> than being independently evolved other species, Humans, Vulcans (and by
> extension, Romulans), and Klingons seem to be subspecies of the same
> space-faring progenitor species that might have seeded them on their
> home-worlds.
>
> There really isn't any other good scientific explanation for their
> mysterious genetic compatibility. Doubly so if Spock and his fellow
> half-breed are fertile themselves. It could also explain why the
> majority of aliens in the Star Trek are so phenotypically similar to
> humans as to look like people with prosthetics and make up on. :)

I'm pretty sure that was dealt with explicitly in Star Trek somewhere
along the line, though I can't remember exactly where. Perhaps in TNG?
But it was convenient that almost all "aliens" were so NOT really
alien.

-Kelly


From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Dec  4 13:34:35 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 13:34:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <mailman.425.1701642225.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.425.1701642225.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <119ba531-e8f7-4909-90c8-817bd1da0f56@zaiboc.net>



On 03/12/2023 22:23, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
>
> One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
> the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
> "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
> selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
> longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
> river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
> "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
> society.

I reckon this is an inevitable thing, and is far from bad.

One area where biological analogies lead us astray, though, is the idea 
of technologically-mediated 'species' being unable to 'interbreed'. It 
might be better to use different words, to emphasise that we won't be 
bounded by the limitations or concepts of biology. If you use technology 
to change your body and mind, you can use technology to create blended 
designs, if you want to. There will be barriers, of course, but they 
will be either self-imposed or simply practical. e.g. no point in trying 
to create a hybrid of something that would be confortable on venus and 
something that would be comfortable on mars. Probably.

The inevitable fragmentation of society doesn't have to be destructive, 
if people have plentiful resources. I thnk we over-emphasise instances 
of different cultures being in conflict, and under-emphasise those where 
different cultures get along well, and even benefit each other.

Ben
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Dec  4 13:43:50 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 05:43:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pre-singularity blues
In-Reply-To: <00b801da26b7$745fb170$5d1f1450$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTQJUpMCQGMfW_Su22tX2sG7+B1yHy-E=ebJCxkbfv0bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008a01da2675$5881c660$09855320$@rainier66.com>
 <00b801da26b7$745fb170$5d1f1450$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <00c201da26b7$ea46a560$bed3f020$@rainier66.com>

 

My son is taking Principals of Physics, which is calculus based.  Those of you who have taken that class know it requires gallons of sweat if one is a mere mortal, such as me and nearly everyone I know.  I had to work for that one.

 

He wrote this to a group of friends:

 

 

Funny anecdote: In my university physics class (mechanics), we meet twice a week in person as usual. However, we have required online discussions for participation points every week. One must answer the provided prompt and respond to two other people. One poor soul in the class, however, was not so careful with their "use of technology", shall we say:

 



 

{end of his post}

 

 

OK then.  If one is going to cheat, one should at least make a half-assed effort to cover one?s tracks.

 

This has me wondering about something I don?t recall coming up in all our singularity discussions over the years.

 

It is perfectly reasonable to think that AI will be sufficiently advanced before the singularity to demotivate students.  They can think about a problem, ask ChatGPT, then realize GPT ?understands? physics better than the student could, even if the student is willing to spill the gallons of sweat to learn the physics.  So? the student concludes with some justification, that spilling those gallons of sweat is pointless.

 

In a sense, we are already seeing the demotivating impact of ChatGPT.

 

spike

 

 

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Dec  4 13:46:16 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 13:46:16 +0000
Subject: [ExI] KISS retires and becomes an avatar band
In-Reply-To: <mailman.425.1701642225.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.425.1701642225.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <36998bda-df39-4295-9d32-d8ca5ce315b1@zaiboc.net>


On 03/12/2023 22:23, BillK wrote:
> Humans can do so much more in the virtual universe.
> Will we eventually leave reality and make our own reality?

We will definitely make new realities, probably very many of them, but 
you can't leave base reality. You can ignore it, but you can't leave it.

I expect those who want nothing more to do with it will choose to let 
others take care of it (a risky choice, if you ask me), while they spend 
a subjective eternity in various fantasy worlds.

But I see no reason why you couldn't have both, and dip in and out of 
whatever experiences you wanted to, or perhaps with the right brain 
architecture, experience more than one reality simultaneously.

Ben
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Dec  4 13:53:06 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 13:53:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <mailman.425.1701642225.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.425.1701642225.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <525c7546-281f-401a-9ea8-781add5b1c42@zaiboc.net>


On 03/12/2023 22:23, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> ChatGPT says that, "one notable example is the works of Peter F.
> Hamilton, whose sci-fi novels often include humans who have evolved
> into subspecies, influenced by technology, ideology, and biology." Has
> anyone read Hamilton's books? Worth the read??

Definitely worth the read. I've read all of his stuff, I think, and 
nothing strikes me as being not worth it.

Some of the novels are BIG books (most of them actually), so be prepared 
for that. Good world-building, and he doesn't just stick to one. I found 
lots of transhumanist ideas in his stuff, and rate him as one of my 
favourite authors (ranking alongside Iain M Banks, which should indicate 
how highly I regard him).

Highly Recommended.

Ben
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From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Dec  4 14:32:34 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 15:32:34 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] pre-singularity blues
In-Reply-To: <00c201da26b7$ea46a560$bed3f020$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <f9bb5c3e-f288-1292-e589-88dde89e9489@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnDW1nAuZwFH--b=CfqVL-te8zZNEzwRJqHuiSUrcr2w+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTQJUpMCQGMfW_Su22tX2sG7+B1yHy-E=ebJCxkbfv0bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008a01da2675$5881c660$09855320$@rainier66.com>
 <00b801da26b7$745fb170$5d1f1450$@rainier66.com>
 <00c201da26b7$ea46a560$bed3f020$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <b34aa697-f073-fbf6-5451-ba5216656d97@swisscows.email>

Hello spike,

As a teacher, let me add my experience about this to the thread. I teach 
IT at vocational schools (1.5 year long program that sits between high 
school and university complexity/content wise) and the students are 
affected in this way as far as I can see:

* The best students don't care. They have discovered a new passion in life 
and get enormous pleasure out of understanding the concepts and building 
things themselves.

GPT might be used as an aide, but generally less than expected, since the 
students actually enjoy figuring things out.

* The worst students have become even worse. They are not motivated from 
the start, and some cheated on the entrance exam with chat gpt, and 
thought they'd be able to chat gpt their way through the program (not 
possible the way I teach) and when forced to think for themselves, and 
when I grow tired of answering the same question (where is the arrow key, 
or what does the "cd" command do in linux) for the 5:th time, it is plain 
to everyone, including themselves, that the program is not the right place 
for them.

* The average students... here it gets complicated! You have some who 
become brilliant students, and you have some who go through the motions 
and who might rely too much on gpt, but are good enough to hide it, but 
you do get suspicious but you cannot quite prove it (or rather, not 
justify wasting the time to prove it), so here I don't know actually.

In terms of skills, the companies who are involved in developing the 
curriculum are all pretty much in agreement that what they want are 
passionate young people with a knack for problem solving. They don't want 
gpt warriors and prompt writers, since those tasks are already on their 
way to get automated.

So that's what I'm seeing from the educational trenches.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Mon, 4 Dec 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> 
> ?
> 
> My son is taking Principals of Physics, which is calculus based.? Those of you who have taken that class know it requires gallons of
> sweat if one is a mere mortal, such as me and nearly everyone I know.? I had to work for that one.
> 
> ?
> 
> He wrote this to a group of friends:
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> Funny anecdote: In my university physics class (mechanics), we meet twice a week in person as usual. However, we have required online
> discussions for participation points every week. One must answer the provided prompt and respond to two other people. One poor soul
> in the class, however, was not so careful with their "use of technology", shall we say:
> 
> ?
> 
> [IMAGE]
> 
> ?
> 
> {end of his post}
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> OK then.? If one is going to cheat, one should at least make a half-assed effort to cover one?s tracks.
> 
> ?
> 
> This has me wondering about something I don?t recall coming up in all our singularity discussions over the years.
> 
> ?
> 
> It is perfectly reasonable to think that AI will be sufficiently advanced before the singularity to demotivate students.? They can
> think about a problem, ask ChatGPT, then realize GPT ?understands? physics better than the student could, even if the student is
> willing to spill the gallons of sweat to learn the physics.? So? the student concludes with some justification, that spilling those
> gallons of sweat is pointless.
> 
> ?
> 
> In a sense, we are already seeing the demotivating impact of ChatGPT.
> 
> ?
> 
> spike
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Dec  4 14:40:25 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 15:40:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <525c7546-281f-401a-9ea8-781add5b1c42@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.425.1701642225.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <525c7546-281f-401a-9ea8-781add5b1c42@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <9fa27a34-4f29-f002-7397-9a640a955a5e@swisscows.email>

Speaking of books, I was wondering if you could recommend some good 
authors for me since Christmas is soon upon us?

I like Gibson (early stuff), Stephenson (early), Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, 
Philip K. Dick, Stanislaw Lem, to mention some.

I dislike emotional relationship centered science fiction, and prefer more 
"hard" stories or stories with interesting philosophical concepts. I like 
the golden age of science fiction as well.

Oh, and I also dislike ideological science fiction where the author starts 
with some current political fashionable idea and then weaves a thin story 
around that. Be it libertarianism or socialism. When it feels as if the 
author is just trying to make a political point instead of focusing on 
science fiction, I get bored.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:

> 
> On 03/12/2023 22:23, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> 
> ChatGPT says that, "one notable example is the works of Peter F.
> Hamilton, whose sci-fi novels often include humans who have evolved
> into subspecies, influenced by technology, ideology, and biology." Has
> anyone read Hamilton's books? Worth the read??
> 
> 
> Definitely worth the read. I've read all of his stuff, I think, and nothing strikes me as being not worth it.
> 
> Some of the novels are BIG books (most of them actually), so be prepared for that. Good world-building, and he doesn't just stick to
> one. I found lots of transhumanist ideas in his stuff, and rate him as one of my favourite authors (ranking alongside Iain M Banks,
> which should indicate how highly I regard him).
> 
> Highly Recommended.
> 
> Ben
> 
>


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Dec  5 08:01:52 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 09:01:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <656ed787.2e0a0220.14a6f.44bf.GMR@mx.google.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfvWKb-J-5Y4YRawyZZpnEZFPe4FTp=CfrBzcPqyj66sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5809e895-d781-2644-e012-ec987d4f1c52@swisscows.email>
 <CAKTCJyfmiLf1cEdN7dLKeEMBxkXfq4e+euTmw3DgRyt+y+RyHg@mail.gmail.com>
 CAKTCJyfmiLf1cEdN7dLKeEMBxkXfq4e+euTmw3DgRyt+y+RyHg@mail.gmail.com
 <656ed787.2e0a0220.14a6f.44bf.GMR@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfu1YpjhpXt3aGRCg2ZuRKrk_JKbKNygOaakOywuYRQYg@mail.gmail.com>

WTF is this?

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <mailer-daemon at googlemail.com>
Date: Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 8:55?AM
Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
To: <giulio at gmail.com>


[image: Error Icon]
Message blocked
Your message to *extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org* has been blocked. See
technical details below for more information.
The response from the remote server was:

541 5.7.1 Intrusion attempt denied from 209.85.208.178



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
To: extropolis at googlegroups.com
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Bcc:
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 08:55:32 +0100
Subject: Re: [Extropolis] Who is younger than 40? 30? 20?
----- Message truncated -----
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From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Dec  5 08:43:12 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 09:43:12 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfu1YpjhpXt3aGRCg2ZuRKrk_JKbKNygOaakOywuYRQYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfvWKb-J-5Y4YRawyZZpnEZFPe4FTp=CfrBzcPqyj66sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5809e895-d781-2644-e012-ec987d4f1c52@swisscows.email>
 <CAKTCJyfmiLf1cEdN7dLKeEMBxkXfq4e+euTmw3DgRyt+y+RyHg@mail.gmail.com>
 CAKTCJyfmiLf1cEdN7dLKeEMBxkXfq4e+euTmw3DgRyt+y+RyHg@mail.gmail.com
 <656ed787.2e0a0220.14a6f.44bf.GMR@mx.google.com>
 <CAKTCJyfu1YpjhpXt3aGRCg2ZuRKrk_JKbKNygOaakOywuYRQYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54795193-cc68-794f-2791-51ad525b312d@swisscows.email>

Hello Giulio, I get this all the time.

I think there's something configured wrong somewhere. The solution is to 
go to your sent emails box and resend the message and that always solves 
the problem for me.

I can also add that this mailinglist is the only place where I get this 
error. Never get it anywhere else, and that is why I think there's an 
error in some configuration somewhere.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Tue, 5 Dec 2023, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote:

> WTF is this?
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <mailer-daemon at googlemail.com>
> Date: Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 8:55?AM
> Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> To: <giulio at gmail.com>
> 
> 
> Error Icon
> 
> MESSAGE BLOCKED
> 
> Your message to extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org has been blocked. See technical details below for more information.
> The response from the remote server was:
> 
> 541 5.7.1 Intrusion attempt denied from 209.85.208.178
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:?Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
> To:?extropolis at googlegroups.com
> Cc:?ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Bcc:?
> Date:?Tue, 5 Dec 2023 08:55:32 +0100
> Subject:?Re: [Extropolis] Who is younger than 40? 30? 20?
> ----- Message truncated -----
> 
>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec  5 10:23:51 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:23:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfu1YpjhpXt3aGRCg2ZuRKrk_JKbKNygOaakOywuYRQYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfvWKb-J-5Y4YRawyZZpnEZFPe4FTp=CfrBzcPqyj66sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5809e895-d781-2644-e012-ec987d4f1c52@swisscows.email>
 <CAKTCJyfmiLf1cEdN7dLKeEMBxkXfq4e+euTmw3DgRyt+y+RyHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <656ed787.2e0a0220.14a6f.44bf.GMR@mx.google.com>
 <CAKTCJyfu1YpjhpXt3aGRCg2ZuRKrk_JKbKNygOaakOywuYRQYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjHX8Ea9Dy5UcVO4RPOHQDVi+JwbPfv35RVhXr5R_sUXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 at 08:04, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> WTF is this?
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <mailer-daemon at googlemail.com>
> Date: Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 8:55?AM
> Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> To: <giulio at gmail.com>
>
>
> Message blocked
>
> Your message to extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org has been blocked. See technical details below for more information.
> The response from the remote server was:
>
> 541 5.7.1 Intrusion attempt denied from 209.85.208.178
>
> _______________________________________________


I get this error about once a month.
The IP address says that it is a Google server that is complaining.
As Daniel says, just wait a while and resend, and it goes through OK.

BillK


From john at ziaspace.com  Tue Dec  5 10:34:46 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 10:34:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjHX8Ea9Dy5UcVO4RPOHQDVi+JwbPfv35RVhXr5R_sUXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfvWKb-J-5Y4YRawyZZpnEZFPe4FTp=CfrBzcPqyj66sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5809e895-d781-2644-e012-ec987d4f1c52@swisscows.email>
 <CAKTCJyfmiLf1cEdN7dLKeEMBxkXfq4e+euTmw3DgRyt+y+RyHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <656ed787.2e0a0220.14a6f.44bf.GMR@mx.google.com>
 <CAKTCJyfu1YpjhpXt3aGRCg2ZuRKrk_JKbKNygOaakOywuYRQYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjHX8Ea9Dy5UcVO4RPOHQDVi+JwbPfv35RVhXr5R_sUXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8b44dd68-f97c-e6ad-a6ba-cf5609b99fa9@newbunny.zia.io>

>> WTF is this?
>>
>> Message blocked
>>
>> Your message to extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org has been blocked. See technical details below for more information.
>> The response from the remote server was:
>>
>> 541 5.7.1 Intrusion attempt denied from 209.85.208.178

Google doesn't care if their servers are configured properly, since it 
becomes someone else's problem. Some of their servers give a name for 
themselves which doesn't match the server, or they give a blank name. It 
appears that's what happened here.

> I get this error about once a month.
> The IP address says that it is a Google server that is complaining.
> As Daniel says, just wait a while and resend, and it goes through OK.

Since there are no actual humans at Google with whom any of us mere 
regular people can communicate, that's what we'll have to do :)

John

From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Dec  5 11:33:24 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 12:33:24 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <8b44dd68-f97c-e6ad-a6ba-cf5609b99fa9@newbunny.zia.io>
References: <CAKTCJyfvWKb-J-5Y4YRawyZZpnEZFPe4FTp=CfrBzcPqyj66sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5809e895-d781-2644-e012-ec987d4f1c52@swisscows.email>
 <CAKTCJyfmiLf1cEdN7dLKeEMBxkXfq4e+euTmw3DgRyt+y+RyHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <656ed787.2e0a0220.14a6f.44bf.GMR@mx.google.com>
 <CAKTCJyfu1YpjhpXt3aGRCg2ZuRKrk_JKbKNygOaakOywuYRQYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjHX8Ea9Dy5UcVO4RPOHQDVi+JwbPfv35RVhXr5R_sUXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8b44dd68-f97c-e6ad-a6ba-cf5609b99fa9@newbunny.zia.io>
Message-ID: <ef0ac64b-a9c9-eeec-2e03-7c90291ed25b@swisscows.email>

Hello John,

Does this mean that the list is hosted on google infrastructure or has 
some tight connection with it? If so, what about moving to another cloud 
provider?

Best regards,
Daniel


On Tue, 5 Dec 2023, John Klos via extropy-chat wrote:

>>> WTF is this?
>>> 
>>> Message blocked
>>> 
>>> Your message to extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org has been blocked. See 
>>> technical details below for more information.
>>> The response from the remote server was:
>>> 
>>> 541 5.7.1 Intrusion attempt denied from 209.85.208.178
>
> Google doesn't care if their servers are configured properly, since it 
> becomes someone else's problem. Some of their servers give a name for 
> themselves which doesn't match the server, or they give a blank name. It 
> appears that's what happened here.
>
>> I get this error about once a month.
>> The IP address says that it is a Google server that is complaining.
>> As Daniel says, just wait a while and resend, and it goes through OK.
>
> Since there are no actual humans at Google with whom any of us mere regular 
> people can communicate, that's what we'll have to do :)
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec  5 13:16:41 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 13:16:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Surveillance - Progress Report
Message-ID: <CAL_armgC9002DpLnbLw8+FNzew8JR-BagViyqANsObGvvYrm2w@mail.gmail.com>

The Internet Enabled Mass Surveillance. A.I. Will Enable Mass Spying.
Spying has always been limited by the need for human labor. A.I. is
going to change that.

By Bruce Schneier     Dec 04, 2023

<https://slate.com/technology/2023/12/ai-mass-spying-internet-surveillance.html>
Quotes:
Mass surveillance fundamentally changed the nature of surveillance.
Because all the data is saved, mass surveillance allows people to
conduct surveillance backward in time, and without even knowing whom
specifically you want to target. Tell me where this person was last
year. List all the red sedans that drove down this road in the past
month. List all of the people who purchased all the ingredients for a
pressure cooker bomb in the past year.

Similarly, mass spying will change the nature of spying. All the data
will be saved. It will all be searchable, and understandable, in bulk.
Tell me who has talked about a particular topic in the past month, and
how discussions about that topic have evolved.
-----------------

Bruce Schneier is an internationally renowned security technologist,
called a ?security guru? by The Economist. He is the author of over
one dozen books?including his latest, A Hacker?s Mind?as well as
hundreds of articles, essays, and academic papers.

By coincidence, another article is about the widespread sale of hidden
spy cameras on Amazon and other websites.
<https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/05/amazon_camera_hook_case_proceeds/>
If you rent a room via Airbnb or similar, you should assume there will
be a hidden spy camera somewhere on the premises.
(And maybe a microphone as well),

Privacy is becoming harder and harder to achieve.

BillK


From efc at swisscows.email  Tue Dec  5 14:49:30 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 15:49:30 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Surveillance - Progress Report
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgC9002DpLnbLw8+FNzew8JR-BagViyqANsObGvvYrm2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgC9002DpLnbLw8+FNzew8JR-BagViyqANsObGvvYrm2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4e0ade1c-80d6-0d81-df52-0b5f1f1012c0@swisscows.email>

> Privacy is becoming harder and harder to achieve.

True! And people seem to care less and less. I do my best to scare my
students with horror stories, to make them think about the future, but I
have a feeling I'm a minority at my schools.

Best regards, 
Daniel


From jasonresch at gmail.com  Tue Dec  5 19:45:41 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 14:45:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Watch "ChatGPT Broke Chess" on YouTube
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhyi8y1wG6HBLscMjDopj3ajEVSQFaR2KEDPdrSsvjAYA@mail.gmail.com>

https://youtu.be/9LDaY7X2qGk

Interesting advances in GPT-4 chess playing.

Jason
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Dec  5 22:23:19 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 14:23:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeDM3zkPS_dVxSA86sc7Vg2i-xi3Yo9VHcu=aGvbcV0JQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeDM3zkPS_dVxSA86sc7Vg2i-xi3Yo9VHcu=aGvbcV0JQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6_YA+5Otx7BMKnif2_wFL7v77ZExp-W3m_n28C3cWxxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:21?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 5:25?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> " next few centuries of transhumanism,"
>>
>> I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
>> completion within decades, not centuries.
>
> The fate of humanity will not go to completion for billions of years.

Perhaps I was not clear.

I suspect humans will abandon flesh (upload) within decades.  Maybe
not all of them, but the vast majority.

I think what we see at Tabby's Star (and 24 others in that cluster) is
orbiting "dyson patches" that provide the physical level substrate for
vast numbers (trillions?) of uploaded aliens and a simulated
environment. The biggest one of them (so far) is over 400 times the
area of the Earth, and even out at 7 AU it is collecting 1.4 million
times the energy humans use today.  Why so far out?  If these patches
are for computation, the low temperature (65 K) will reduce the error
rate (and the power needed for computation).

What limits the size?  Most likely the speed of light,  Bigger, and
communication would take an unreasonable (subjective) time to get from
edge to edge.

Now I could be dead wrong on this analysis, and I hope I am, we don't
need the competition.

But if I am not and we follow the aliens at Tabby's Star, things will
get very strange as we sail up the singularity curve.

Keith

PS.  Needless to say, full-scale nanotechnology is required to upload.

>>
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
>> >
>> > One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
>> > the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
>> > "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
>> > selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
>> > longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
>> > river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
>> > "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
>> > society.
>> >
>> > I welcome science fiction along these lines...
>> >
>> > -Kelly
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec  5 22:59:35 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 22:59:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?An_expert_explains_=E2=80=98mind_uploading?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
Message-ID: <CAL_armjMQM0DBsRZwnAEsy4kWPCeWBEWP6mwTUvBkwqaB2cjNw@mail.gmail.com>

Could you move from your biological body to a computer?
An expert explains ?mind uploading?.

Published: December 4, 2023
Author  Clas Weber
Senior lecturer, The University of Western Australia

<https://theconversation.com/could-you-move-from-your-biological-body-to-a-computer-an-expert-explains-mind-uploading-218035>

Quotes:
This is the concept behind mind uploading ? the idea that we may one
day be able to transition a person from their biological body to a
synthetic hardware. The idea originated in an intellectual movement
called transhumanism and has several key advocates including computer
scientist Ray Kurzweil, philosopher Nick Bostrom and neuroscientist
Randal Koene.

The feasibility of mind uploading rests on three core assumptions.

First is the technology assumption ? the idea that we will be able to
develop mind uploading technology within the coming decades.
Second is the artificial mind assumption ? the idea that a simulated
brain would give rise to a real mind
and third is the survival assumption ? the idea that the person
created in the process is really ?you?.
Only then does mind uploading become a way for you to live on.

How plausible is each of these?
--------------------

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec  6 00:20:15 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 16:20:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?An_expert_explains_=E2=80=98mind_uploading?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjMQM0DBsRZwnAEsy4kWPCeWBEWP6mwTUvBkwqaB2cjNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjMQM0DBsRZwnAEsy4kWPCeWBEWP6mwTUvBkwqaB2cjNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6SuZMcQUFo1Fo_-GFDTZFGTz1DB98-uq9JE658_MeD=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 3:01?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Could you move from your biological body to a computer?
> An expert explains ?mind uploading?.
>
> Published: December 4, 2023
> Author  Clas Weber
> Senior lecturer, The University of Western Australia
>
> <https://theconversation.com/could-you-move-from-your-biological-body-to-a-computer-an-expert-explains-mind-uploading-218035>
>
> Quotes:
> This is the concept behind mind uploading ? the idea that we may one
> day be able to transition a person from their biological body to a
> synthetic hardware. The idea originated in an intellectual movement
> called transhumanism and has several key advocates including computer
> scientist Ray Kurzweil, philosopher Nick Bostrom and neuroscientist
> Randal Koene.
>
> The feasibility of mind uploading rests on three core assumptions.
>
> First is the technology assumption ? the idea that we will be able to
> develop mind uploading technology within the coming decades.
> Second is the artificial mind assumption ? the idea that a simulated
> brain would give rise to a real mind
> and third is the survival assumption ? the idea that the person
> created in the process is really ?you?.
> Only then does mind uploading become a way for you to live on.
>
> How plausible is each of these?

They are very complex, but there is nothing I know about that would
make it impossible.

But for marketing reasons, you want it to be bidirectional.  You spend
a weekend in the uploaded state and go back to a meat body on Monday
(with continuity of memory from the time in the uploaded state).  This
is technically no harder than one way.

I think uploaded people may keep their physical bodies stored for a
very long time.  Sentimental.

Keith

> --------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From jasonresch at gmail.com  Wed Dec  6 00:54:33 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 19:54:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?An_expert_explains_=E2=80=98mind_uploading?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6SuZMcQUFo1Fo_-GFDTZFGTz1DB98-uq9JE658_MeD=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjMQM0DBsRZwnAEsy4kWPCeWBEWP6mwTUvBkwqaB2cjNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SuZMcQUFo1Fo_-GFDTZFGTz1DB98-uq9JE658_MeD=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUgtq2FMHt+9ULtMZx4jOpGYKG6JR=FFDJnrF9rDCQkVyw@mail.gmail.com>

We've already uploaded worm minds from their connectomes and put them into
robot bodies.

Jason

On Tue, Dec 5, 2023, 7:21 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 3:01?PM BillK via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Could you move from your biological body to a computer?
> > An expert explains ?mind uploading?.
> >
> > Published: December 4, 2023
> > Author  Clas Weber
> > Senior lecturer, The University of Western Australia
> >
> > <
> https://theconversation.com/could-you-move-from-your-biological-body-to-a-computer-an-expert-explains-mind-uploading-218035
> >
> >
> > Quotes:
> > This is the concept behind mind uploading ? the idea that we may one
> > day be able to transition a person from their biological body to a
> > synthetic hardware. The idea originated in an intellectual movement
> > called transhumanism and has several key advocates including computer
> > scientist Ray Kurzweil, philosopher Nick Bostrom and neuroscientist
> > Randal Koene.
> >
> > The feasibility of mind uploading rests on three core assumptions.
> >
> > First is the technology assumption ? the idea that we will be able to
> > develop mind uploading technology within the coming decades.
> > Second is the artificial mind assumption ? the idea that a simulated
> > brain would give rise to a real mind
> > and third is the survival assumption ? the idea that the person
> > created in the process is really ?you?.
> > Only then does mind uploading become a way for you to live on.
> >
> > How plausible is each of these?
>
> They are very complex, but there is nothing I know about that would
> make it impossible.
>
> But for marketing reasons, you want it to be bidirectional.  You spend
> a weekend in the uploaded state and go back to a meat body on Monday
> (with continuity of memory from the time in the uploaded state).  This
> is technically no harder than one way.
>
> I think uploaded people may keep their physical bodies stored for a
> very long time.  Sentimental.
>
> Keith
>
> > --------------------
> >
> > BillK
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ExiMod at protonmail.com  Wed Dec  6 18:32:36 2023
From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod)
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 18:32:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Futuristic philosophies discussion incl. Anders Sandberg
Message-ID: <A-UFtmOLkXL_hGVjxDOV8LUBLYzWIRaXFxCvNiE3cOI8pZ7QAaeva0fFn0Vy3BhQ_OGIbKoz80gc5RQCF5TvzCI6mgHZVc9scMb4U0w7my0=@protonmail.com>

(Suggested by Dave Oberting).

Superintelligent AI: Transhumanism etc.

The futuristic philosophies favoured by AI?s most prominent supporters.
5 Dec 2023

In the penultimate episode of this Tech Tonic series, hosts Madhumita Murgia and John Thornhill look at some of the futuristic objectives that are at the centre of the AI industry?s quest for superintelligence and hear about the Extropians, a surprisingly influential group of futurists from the early 1990s. Anders Sandberg, senior research fellow at Oxford university's Future of Humanity Institute, sets out some of the ideas developed in the Extropians mailing list.

<https://www.ft.com/content/8e6d370d-f78e-4889-be35-e263d248e370>
Podcast. 27 minutes.

Transcript here:

<https://www.ft.com/content/14123e16-25ab-45f1-912d-34ffcf0c8177>

Regards, ExiMod

Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email.
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From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch  Thu Dec  7 06:13:06 2023
From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 06:13:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Futuristic philosophies discussion incl. Anders Sandberg
In-Reply-To: <A-UFtmOLkXL_hGVjxDOV8LUBLYzWIRaXFxCvNiE3cOI8pZ7QAaeva0fFn0Vy3BhQ_OGIbKoz80gc5RQCF5TvzCI6mgHZVc9scMb4U0w7my0=@protonmail.com>
References: <A-UFtmOLkXL_hGVjxDOV8LUBLYzWIRaXFxCvNiE3cOI8pZ7QAaeva0fFn0Vy3BhQ_OGIbKoz80gc5RQCF5TvzCI6mgHZVc9scMb4U0w7my0=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <PqALX4xdjHyUi32cJDYcjtwxQfEqKQ3dPwfdJD8fUOalEgc81_SebiFBiiWDETYCiguTTH5Q2Gv69pLaB0uUBBAZ8gNrpYdGkJm1kbyOjTU=@protonmail.ch>

On Wednesday, December 6th, 2023 at 7:32 PM, ExiMod via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


> 

> (Suggested by Dave Oberting).
> 

> 

> Superintelligent AI: Transhumanism etc.
> =======================================
> 

> The futuristic philosophies favoured by AI?s most prominent supporters.
> 5 Dec 2023
> 

> In the penultimate episode of this Tech Tonic series, hosts Madhumita Murgia and John Thornhill look at some of the futuristic objectives that are at the centre of the AI industry?s quest for superintelligence and hear about the Extropians, a surprisingly influential group of futurists from the early 1990s. Anders Sandberg, senior research fellow at Oxford university's Future of Humanity Institute, sets out some of the ideas developed in the Extropians mailing list.


I miss Anders!
--
Giulio Prisco
https://linktr.ee/giulioprisco
giulioprisco at protonmail.ch





> 

> <https://www.ft.com/content/8e6d370d-f78e-4889-be35-e263d248e370>
> Podcast. 27 minutes.
> 

> Transcript here:
> <https://www.ft.com/content/14123e16-25ab-45f1-912d-34ffcf0c8177>
> 

> Regards, ExiMod
> 

> 

> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Dec  7 10:46:46 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 11:46:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium on December 14, 2023 NEXT WEEK
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc0RnVLxRBTwTUTbomDokmrsagQFq7v_4NS5BYskzPzQQ@mail.gmail.com>

NEXT WEEK at the Terasem Colloquium on December 14, 2023 (10am-1pm ET via
Zoom), Ben Goertzel, Stefano Vaj, Mika Johnson, Blake Lemoine, Bill
Bainbridge & Vitaly Vanchurin will talk about AI and consciousness. You are
invited!
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/terasem-colloquium-december-14-2023
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Thu Dec  7 12:27:07 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 12:27:07 +0000
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?An_expert_explains_=E2=80=98mind_uploading?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.452.1701929619.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.452.1701929619.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <c873377e-129c-45f6-b172-6910a5ea7366@zaiboc.net>

On 07/12/2023 06:13,?BillK wrote:
> Could you move from your biological body to a computer?
> An expert explains ?mind uploading?.
>
> Published: 04 December 2023
> Author  Clas Weber
> Senior lecturer, The University of Western Australia
>
> <https://theconversation.com/could-you-move-from-your-biological-body-to-a-computer-an-expert-explains-mind-uploading-218035>

"An Expert", eh?
I think we have here the phenomenon of someone who knows a lot about one 
thing, thinking that this entitles them to an authoritative opinion on 
anything else:

"But wait: what happens when the original biological-you also survives 
the uploading process? Would you, along with your consciousness, split 
into two people, resulting in two of ?you? ? one in a biological form 
(B) and one in an uploaded form (C)?

No, you (A) can?t literally split into two separate people (B ? C) and 
be identical with both at the same time. At most, only one of them can 
be you (either A = B or A = C)"

He's just assuming the answer to his question is 'No'. No logical 
argument, no empirical proof, just an opinion. Perfect example of an 
unintuitive conclusion (two of you, each just as much 'you' as the 
other) leading someone to reject the obvious. Unless, of course, he's a 
dualist, and thinks there's some ineffable unique ghostly indivisible 
thing, not subject to the laws of physics, that is the 'real' you. If 
that was true, then obviously uploading would be off the cards, and a 
whole bunch of things would need to be vigorously re-thought (to say the 
least!)

There's no reason whatsoever why someone can't split into two people. 
The fact that we haven't done it yet, and so it's a very strange idea, 
doesn't invalidate it. If you accept a materialist interpretation of the 
world, it's an inevitable conclusion. It seems to me that this concept 
is the heavier-than-air flight of our times, and we're currently at the 
stage where just about everybody rejects the idea.

Ben
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From john at ziaspace.com  Thu Dec  7 19:38:49 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 19:38:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] META: Internet updates in progress
Message-ID: <e09d7ddd-01ba-b71d-1ebd-53721169dbc8@newbunny.zia.io>

Hi, all!

I just want everyone to know that the Extropy server's Internet will be worked 
on over the next several hours, so you may not be able to access the 
extropy.org web site or send email to the lists during this time.

The backup mail server is up and running, so even if you get a warning about 
your email not being delivered, it's just a warning - either it will be 
delivered to the backup server, then the main server when it's available, or 
your mail server will retry every now and then.

Thanks!
John

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Dec  7 21:56:35 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 13:56:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] asimov's first law applicable here?
Message-ID: <012e01da2958$3fe58c00$bfb0a400$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Asimov wrote on robots intervening in a conflict to prevent harm.  But what
if a robot in this situation?  Caption: "Go away, robot, I am fixing to
whoop this cat's ass."

 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1732693178233368647

 

spike

 

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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Dec  8 07:47:53 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 08:47:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>

Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good. Thoughts on effective
accelerationism (e/acc), extropy, futurism, cosmism.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/effective-accelerationism-eacc-is
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec  8 16:00:44 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 08:00:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSta-cHYVG1vJkYkSXrZ+i=LuR3H=Q+1Km11uton8ezNw@mail.gmail.com>

The intent is good; the name is unfortunate.  It brings connotations of
"effective altruism", which is struggling with those who have used it as a
cover for ill deeds (as well as concerns over whether it has been effective
in practice), and "accelerationism", a political philosophy that tries for
"make things worse so the people (in charge or at large) will have to wake
up and do the right thing" but in practice usually only achieves "make
things worse".

On Thu, Dec 7, 2023 at 11:49?PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good. Thoughts on effective
> accelerationism (e/acc), extropy, futurism, cosmism.
> https://www.turingchurch.com/p/effective-accelerationism-eacc-is
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec  8 16:30:01 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 16:30:01 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSta-cHYVG1vJkYkSXrZ+i=LuR3H=Q+1Km11uton8ezNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSta-cHYVG1vJkYkSXrZ+i=LuR3H=Q+1Km11uton8ezNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiKAT=ukd0F5KP6+OOmYySxB2c7xC3ztJTTX9d-NpjCDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 at 16:03, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The intent is good; the name is unfortunate.  It brings connotations of "effective altruism", which is struggling with those who have used it as a cover for ill deeds (as well as concerns over whether it has been effective in practice), and "accelerationism", a political philosophy that tries for "make things worse so the people (in charge or at large) will have to wake up and do the right thing" but in practice usually only achieves "make things worse".
> _______________________________________________


What is Effective Accelerationism: Advantages and Disadvantages
Posted on November 28, 2023 by Kris Timothy Simon

<https://www.profolus.com/topics/what-is-effective-accelerationism-advantages-disadvantages/>
Quotes:
Effective accelerationism combines and refines the ideas of
accelerationism and effective altruism.

Pros of Effective Accelerationism: Advantages and Applications
1. Supports the Use of Science and Technology to Solve Pressing Problems
2. Hedges the Risks and Problems Arising from Stagnation and Decline
3. Draws Attention to the Most Impactful Trends in Science and Technology

Cons of Effective Accelerationism: Disadvantages and Criticisms
1. Leans Toward an Idealistic But Oversimplified Understanding of Progress
2. Based on the Misplaced Interpretation of the Second Law of Dynamics
3. Ignores the Potential Risks and Harms of Unhinged Rapid Development
--------------------

BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Dec  8 16:57:04 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 17:57:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSta-cHYVG1vJkYkSXrZ+i=LuR3H=Q+1Km11uton8ezNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSta-cHYVG1vJkYkSXrZ+i=LuR3H=Q+1Km11uton8ezNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfjmGmTLPrPODRiP9yk7Yoe1kbgE9OHd4_J=OS7Khw+-g@mail.gmail.com>

On 2023. Dec 8., Fri at 17:02, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The intent is good; the name is unfortunate.  It brings connotations of
> "effective altruism", which is struggling with those who have used it as a
> cover for ill deeds (as well as concerns over whether it has been effective
> in practice), and "accelerationism", a political philosophy that tries for
> "make things worse so the people (in charge or at large) will have to wake
> up and do the right thing" but in practice usually only achieves "make
> things worse".
>

I think the name was coined in the spur of the moment as a word play on
effective altruism, but yes, I think extropy is a much better name for
pretty much the same thing. I?m sure Verdon agrees, or he wouldn?t have
called his company extropicAI. However, the label e/acc has gained momentum.


> On Thu, Dec 7, 2023 at 11:49?PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good. Thoughts on effective
>> accelerationism (e/acc), extropy, futurism, cosmism.
>> https://www.turingchurch.com/p/effective-accelerationism-eacc-is
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec  8 16:58:49 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 08:58:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiKAT=ukd0F5KP6+OOmYySxB2c7xC3ztJTTX9d-NpjCDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSta-cHYVG1vJkYkSXrZ+i=LuR3H=Q+1Km11uton8ezNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiKAT=ukd0F5KP6+OOmYySxB2c7xC3ztJTTX9d-NpjCDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSj_3-C3iFv2xBpz0caOm=8z660vJtTZ7-7Oeuuv3M46w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 8:32?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 at 16:03, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > The intent is good; the name is unfortunate.  It brings connotations of
> "effective altruism", which is struggling with those who have used it as a
> cover for ill deeds (as well as concerns over whether it has been effective
> in practice), and "accelerationism", a political philosophy that tries for
> "make things worse so the people (in charge or at large) will have to wake
> up and do the right thing" but in practice usually only achieves "make
> things worse".
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> What is Effective Accelerationism: Advantages and Disadvantages
> Posted on November 28, 2023 by Kris Timothy Simon
>
> <
> https://www.profolus.com/topics/what-is-effective-accelerationism-advantages-disadvantages/
> >
> Quotes:
> Effective accelerationism combines and refines the ideas of
> accelerationism and effective altruism.
>

That doesn't seem to be drawing from the common meaning of
"accelerationism".  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism .

I can see a version of the word that is compatible, but it's not the one
most folk know.  Such a basic failure of research leaves me doubtful that
any organized movement using that as its name is capable of accomplishing
much of note.
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Fri Dec  8 18:12:14 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 13:12:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSj_3-C3iFv2xBpz0caOm=8z660vJtTZ7-7Oeuuv3M46w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSta-cHYVG1vJkYkSXrZ+i=LuR3H=Q+1Km11uton8ezNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiKAT=ukd0F5KP6+OOmYySxB2c7xC3ztJTTX9d-NpjCDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSj_3-C3iFv2xBpz0caOm=8z660vJtTZ7-7Oeuuv3M46w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjjOuALKnCvU+5+3m2H0_W73iFNsTvSByV20TGc5v80OA@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know that the rate can be changed. It appears to be a reliable
function of well-established economic and demographic trends:

See: https://arxiv.org/abs/1206.0496
"Extremely simple mathematical models are shown to be able to account for
99.2?99.91 per cent of all the variation in economic and demographic
macrodynamics of the world for almost two millennia of its history."

Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_von_Foerster#Doomsday_equation

The trends are reliable enough that someone with economic data from Rome
through the middle ages could have predicted that we would approach
hyperbolic economic growth early in the 21st century. I write about the
predictive power of these trends here:
https://alwaysasking.com/when-will-ai-take-over/#The_Doomsday_Equation

Jason

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 12:00?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 8:32?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 at 16:03, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > The intent is good; the name is unfortunate.  It brings connotations of
>> "effective altruism", which is struggling with those who have used it as a
>> cover for ill deeds (as well as concerns over whether it has been effective
>> in practice), and "accelerationism", a political philosophy that tries for
>> "make things worse so the people (in charge or at large) will have to wake
>> up and do the right thing" but in practice usually only achieves "make
>> things worse".
>> > _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> What is Effective Accelerationism: Advantages and Disadvantages
>> Posted on November 28, 2023 by Kris Timothy Simon
>>
>> <
>> https://www.profolus.com/topics/what-is-effective-accelerationism-advantages-disadvantages/
>> >
>> Quotes:
>> Effective accelerationism combines and refines the ideas of
>> accelerationism and effective altruism.
>>
>
> That doesn't seem to be drawing from the common meaning of
> "accelerationism".  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism .
>
> I can see a version of the word that is compatible, but it's not the one
> most folk know.  Such a basic failure of research leaves me doubtful that
> any organized movement using that as its name is capable of accomplishing
> much of note.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec  8 20:23:32 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 20:23:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUjjOuALKnCvU+5+3m2H0_W73iFNsTvSByV20TGc5v80OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSta-cHYVG1vJkYkSXrZ+i=LuR3H=Q+1Km11uton8ezNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiKAT=ukd0F5KP6+OOmYySxB2c7xC3ztJTTX9d-NpjCDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSj_3-C3iFv2xBpz0caOm=8z660vJtTZ7-7Oeuuv3M46w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjjOuALKnCvU+5+3m2H0_W73iFNsTvSByV20TGc5v80OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgC3_tmu0X7AZU+1WzsrHAY_weu7QMztg_0gb=cx0xrSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 at 18:14, Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I don't know that the rate can be changed. It appears to be a reliable function of well-established economic and demographic trends:
>
> See: https://arxiv.org/abs/1206.0496
> "Extremely simple mathematical models are shown to be able to account for 99.2?99.91 per cent of all the variation in economic and demographic macrodynamics of the world for almost two millennia of its history."
>
> Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_von_Foerster#Doomsday_equation
>
> The trends are reliable enough that someone with economic data from Rome through the middle ages could have predicted that we would approach hyperbolic economic growth early in the 21st century. I write about the predictive power of these trends here: https://alwaysasking.com/when-will-ai-take-over/#The_Doomsday_Equation
>
> Jason
> _______________________________________________


The e/acc movement comes out of Silicon Valley and advocates for the
acceleration of the rate of technological progress by supporting the
development and deployment of new technologies, such as artificial
intelligence, nanotechnology, and biotechnology.

This new tech seems to act as superpowers for humans. It seems
reasonable to expect that this will speed up tech progress.
The concern, of course, is that ?Move fast and break things? - Mark
Zuckerberg, could damage humanity too much.

BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  9 00:11:47 2023
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 16:11:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] On the Death of Henry Kissinger
Message-ID: <9766518C-3DB8-4A9A-8C72-1664BE9CE2C2@gmail.com>

https://c4ss.org/content/59271

One thing I can praise Bernie Sanders for.

(This piece contains a few typos. The ones I?ve noticed, I?ve reported.)

Regards,

Dan
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat Dec  9 13:15:05 2023
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 10:15:05 -0300
Subject: [ExI] Dementia as a Prion
Message-ID: <84CC5E6C-DEDD-4837-8087-6EDD1A768C9A@gmail.com>

Maybe you guys already talked about it, but just read an article that Dementia may spread as a prion. They said it wasn?t one, then described it acting exactly like one. 

https://www.sciencealert.com/misfolded-proteins-could-make-dementia-transmissible-scientists-suggest

SR Ballard
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Dec  9 16:02:36 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 08:02:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] On the Death of Henry Kissinger
In-Reply-To: <9766518C-3DB8-4A9A-8C72-1664BE9CE2C2@gmail.com>
References: <9766518C-3DB8-4A9A-8C72-1664BE9CE2C2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT4GFB3xdC1Bn+b1CHw1NEOHizJ9nSorE+42sBZurd3gg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023, 4:13 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> One thing I can praise Bernie Sanders for.
>

...I don't think Bernie caused his death?  Are we talking bullet, or
inducing excess stress in an elderly man?

>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Dec 11 05:01:58 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 06:01:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0-Zkr1n1aA+1=JyNhvmOo19PxmJxYXpjqdDkO7yD4Zyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0-Zkr1n1aA+1=JyNhvmOo19PxmJxYXpjqdDkO7yD4Zyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyentosF27t=G9SNOK-rnfTFOTEj5QP99prnM=270VyKDw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John, my take on this point is similar to my take on space expansion. I
would *like* it if the good guys are the first to develop superhuman AI and
expand into space, but if the bad guys must be the first, so be it. The
universe will provide and make sure things work out well.

Why have you stopped saying you are an extropian?

On Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 4:10?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:48?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> *> Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good. Thoughts on effective
>> accelerationism (e/acc), extropy, futurism,
>> cosmism.https://www.turingchurch.com/p/effective-accelerationism-eacc-is
>> <https://www.turingchurch.com/p/effective-accelerationism-eacc-is>*
>>
>
> I agree with almost everything you said, and I too became a card-carrying
> extropian in the mid-1990s and until a few years ago I was proud to say I
> was still an extropian. But today I feel more comfortable saying I'm a
> believer in effective accelerationism, not because I believe AI poses no
> danger to the human race but because I believe the development of a
> superhuman AI is inevitable and the chances that the AI will not decide to
> exterminate us is greater if baby Mr. Jupiter Brain is developed by the US,
> Europe, Japan, Taiwan, or South Korea, than if it was developed by China,
> Russia, or North Korea.  If given a choice between low chance and no chance
> I'll pick low chance every time.
>
>   John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
> 4s8
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0-Zkr1n1aA%2B1%3DJyNhvmOo19PxmJxYXpjqdDkO7yD4Zyw%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0-Zkr1n1aA%2B1%3DJyNhvmOo19PxmJxYXpjqdDkO7yD4Zyw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Dec 11 06:04:22 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 07:04:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium on THURSDAY
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfmjL2gw2s4SbjD_5yaMTsh0gD-6_7iWKU6beqLPOD3gw@mail.gmail.com>

THURSDAY at the Terasem Colloquium on December 14, 2023 (10am-1pm ET via
Zoom), Ben Goertzel, Stefano Vaj, Mika Johnson, Blake Lemoine, Bill
Bainbridge & Vitaly Vanchurin will talk about AI and consciousness. You are
invited!
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/terasem-colloquium-december-14-2023
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Tue Dec 12 20:29:49 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 13:29:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6_YA+5Otx7BMKnif2_wFL7v77ZExp-W3m_n28C3cWxxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeDM3zkPS_dVxSA86sc7Vg2i-xi3Yo9VHcu=aGvbcV0JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6_YA+5Otx7BMKnif2_wFL7v77ZExp-W3m_n28C3cWxxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCNZ1_8Lx-Td_TBs=mfps4kbq515-bLhJ7p46RBvo+OAg@mail.gmail.com>

Detailed spectral analysis of the star's light could reveal
differences between a Dyson cloud and dust. A Dyson cloud would likely
show some signs of energy conversion, such as excess waste heat, which
might manifest as an infrared signature. Dust clouds would not produce
such heat signatures. Has such an analysis been done?? I would guess
so, but I don't know the answer.

-Kelly

On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 3:24?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:21?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 5:25?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> " next few centuries of transhumanism,"
> >>
> >> I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
> >> completion within decades, not centuries.
> >
> > The fate of humanity will not go to completion for billions of years.
>
> Perhaps I was not clear.
>
> I suspect humans will abandon flesh (upload) within decades.  Maybe
> not all of them, but the vast majority.
>
> I think what we see at Tabby's Star (and 24 others in that cluster) is
> orbiting "dyson patches" that provide the physical level substrate for
> vast numbers (trillions?) of uploaded aliens and a simulated
> environment. The biggest one of them (so far) is over 400 times the
> area of the Earth, and even out at 7 AU it is collecting 1.4 million
> times the energy humans use today.  Why so far out?  If these patches
> are for computation, the low temperature (65 K) will reduce the error
> rate (and the power needed for computation).
>
> What limits the size?  Most likely the speed of light,  Bigger, and
> communication would take an unreasonable (subjective) time to get from
> edge to edge.
>
> Now I could be dead wrong on this analysis, and I hope I am, we don't
> need the competition.
>
> But if I am not and we follow the aliens at Tabby's Star, things will
> get very strange as we sail up the singularity curve.
>
> Keith
>
> PS.  Needless to say, full-scale nanotechnology is required to upload.
>
> >>
> >>
> >> Keith
> >>
> >> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> >> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
> >> >
> >> > One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
> >> > the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
> >> > "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
> >> > selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
> >> > longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
> >> > river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
> >> > "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
> >> > society.
> >> >
> >> > I welcome science fiction along these lines...
> >> >
> >> > -Kelly
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > extropy-chat mailing list
> >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec 13 16:32:39 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 08:32:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Interview with Anders Sandberg
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6aPutydhV-cjOSVFA41TR_DgTnDEKMijH4fiQh6H3EYw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.ft.com/content/14123e16-25ab-45f1-912d-34ffcf0c8177

Keith

From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Dec 13 11:19:31 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 12:19:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] TOMORROW Terasem Colloquium on AI / consciousness
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydrJQXa6Ne_W1i9GeZ-uZZXCYayoiTR+MQ=5UEn=FRHbw@mail.gmail.com>

TOMORROW December 14, 2023, at the Terasem Colloquium (10am-1pm ET via
Zoom), Ben Goertzel, Stefano Vaj, Mika Johnson, Blake Lemoine, Bill
Bainbridge & Vitaly Vanchurin will talk about AI and consciousness. You are
invited!
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/terasem-colloquium-december-14-2023
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 13 11:32:00 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 11:32:00 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Tesla's Optimus Gen 2 humanoid
Message-ID: <CAL_armj5ypB45YPTYcgn6VyotsBrgc=9aYyiBdr6GYqzodfWDw@mail.gmail.com>

Tesla's Optimus Gen 2 humanoid: A lot more Model S than Cybertruck
By Loz Blain    December 12, 2023

<https://newatlas.com/robotics/tesla-optimus-gen-2-robot/>
Quotes:
Tesla has completely overhauled its humanoid robot. The Optimus Gen 2
is 10 kg (22 lb) lighter, 30% faster, a lot smoother and more capable,
and it looks much more human in the way it moves. It's also got new
hands and feet, and some of Elon's style.

The Gen 2 bot gets two degrees of freedom in its neck, integrated
electronics and wiring, and a more human foot shape with articulated
toe sections and force/torque sensors. It also gets brand new hands,
with 11 degrees of movement freedom, faster actuators, and tactile
sensors on all its fingers to enable more deft manipulation of
objects.
-------------------

Includes video - 1min 43sec.

BillK

From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Dec 12 06:50:15 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 07:50:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2-rtm8hO57uRqrskUk2Yst3eE4toptZzZ7xbNTCnv_Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfCWdJPQ-caRHMAePHJXM9Noy+qQgpeGZbCEdcfXEO5UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0-Zkr1n1aA+1=JyNhvmOo19PxmJxYXpjqdDkO7yD4Zyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyentosF27t=G9SNOK-rnfTFOTEj5QP99prnM=270VyKDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2-rtm8hO57uRqrskUk2Yst3eE4toptZzZ7xbNTCnv_Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycEyjTMht6bGEU4M3aM0cd4U8b9JgA6J2TpbR5+q3bXpg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John,

<So the real question an AI scientist should ask himself is not should I
help build a super intelligence but should I wait for somebody more ethical
than me to do so...>

I don't have a concept of "ethics" more precise than the nebulous concept
that we should align with the will of the universe or something like that,
for which we should first know more about what the will of the universe
could be.

< I don't believe that the scientists in China or Russia or North Korea are
more moral than the scientists working at OpenAI or Google or Anthropic...>

Same as above for morality: I don't know what morality is. But from a more
practical perspective, history shows that modern (or better pre-modern)
Western culture, which has been based on competition, pluralism, freedom of
thought and speech, freedom of scientific research, has produced better
sci/tech faster than the centralized cultures of China or Russia or North
Korea.

Which brings me to:

<Because I committed heresy and the Extropians excommunicated me, and
because I don't want to be mistaken as a closet Trump supporter.>

So we extropians are Trump supporters? I didn't know that, but if so, then
feel free to call me a Trump supporter!

Trump is far from being my ideal politician. But then very few politician
are, and those few don't have a realistic chance to be elected to positions
where they can make a difference.

In politics, one must think not only of how good a certain candidate or a
certain policy is, but also of the alternatives on the table.

To me, Trump is a symptom. It is like part of the collective mind of
America, perhaps the more perceptive part, has sensed that American culture
(and Western culture at large) is slipping on a dangerous slope that could
lead to abandoning the principles of competition, pluralism, freedom of
thought and speech, and freedom of scientific research. This is where the
ultra-PC "wokeness" of certain intolerant cultural and political actors
leads. And that part of our collective mind has embraced Trump as the best
way to fight back.

Of course there could be better ways to fight back, and of course a better
candidate than Trump could emerge. But we must fight back in some or some
other way.

On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 3:38?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 12:02?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> *> Hi John, my take on this point is similar to my take on space
>> expansion. I would *like* it if the good guys are the first to develop
>> superhuman AI and expand into space, but if the bad guys must be the first,
>> so be it. The universe will provide and make sure things work out well.*
>>
>
> It has always been clear to me that unless there was some physical reason
> that a super intelligent AI was impossible to make it was inevitable that
> somebody somewhere will build one, and events of the last year have
> increased my certainty that there was no such physical obstacle from 99% to
> 100%. So the real question an AI scientist should ask himself is not should
> I help build a super intelligence but should I wait for somebody more
> ethical than me to do so.  I don't believe that the scientists in China or
> Russia or North Korea are more moral than the scientists working at OpenAI
> or Google or Anthropic. And I'm certain the universe will see to it that
> things work out, but I'm not certain it will work out to the advantage of
> human beings, however the probability is a little higher if the first
> superhuman AI is made by one of the good guys.
>
>
> For similar reasons I think Oppenheimer was wrong in opposing the building
> of the H-bomb. After the war it was not known if it was even physically
> possible to build a thermonuclear bomb, and the answer to that question
> certainly seems to me like something that should be known if you're
> interested in national security. But Oppenheimer opposed even researching
> the possibility of such a thing. The US  pretty much followed Oppenheimer's
> advice and did little thermonuclear research until the USSR exploded a
> fission bomb in 1949. After that the US started a huge H-bomb project  and
> in 1951 the Teller?Ulam design was discovered making it clear it was not
> only possible but practical to make such a device and in 1952 they not only
> made an H-bomb they tested one. And this is where I think the US made a
> second mistake, they should not have tested it.
>
> If the US had started the H-bomb program as soon as the war ended they
> could've probably built an H bomb in 1947 or 1948 before the USSR's fission
> bomb test. No nation could put H bombs into their weapons stockpile if they
> have not tested it and it would be impossible to test such a huge thing
> without the entire world becoming aware of it. So if 1948 the US had said
> that they had made an H-Bomb but would not test it unless some other nation
> tested one then,maybe Stalin would have decided not to test one either.
> Probably Stalin would have built and tested an H-bomb anyway but I think it
> would have been worth taking the chance.
>
>
>> *> Why have you stopped saying you are an extropian?*
>>
>
> Because I committed heresy and the Extropians excommunicated me, and
> because I don't want to be mistaken as a closet Trump supporter.
>
>   John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
> ich
>
>
>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 10, 2023 at 4:10?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 2:48?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> *> Effective accelerationism (e/acc) is good. Thoughts on effective
>>>> accelerationism (e/acc), extropy, futurism,
>>>> cosmism.https://www.turingchurch.com/p/effective-accelerationism-eacc-is
>>>> <https://www.turingchurch.com/p/effective-accelerationism-eacc-is>*
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with almost everything you said, and I too became a
>>> card-carrying extropian in the mid-1990s and until a few years ago I was
>>> proud to say I was still an extropian. But today I feel more comfortable
>>> saying I'm a believer in effective accelerationism, not because I believe
>>> AI poses no danger to the human race but because I believe the development
>>> of a superhuman AI is inevitable and the chances that the AI will not
>>> decide to exterminate us is greater if baby Mr. Jupiter Brain is developed
>>> by the US, Europe, Japan, Taiwan, or South Korea, than if it was developed
>>> by China, Russia, or North Korea.  If given a choice between low chance and
>>> no chance I'll pick low chance every time.
>>>
>>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2-rtm8hO57uRqrskUk2Yst3eE4toptZzZ7xbNTCnv_Lg%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv2-rtm8hO57uRqrskUk2Yst3eE4toptZzZ7xbNTCnv_Lg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec 13 18:50:24 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 10:50:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Islands of trans-humanity
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnCNZ1_8Lx-Td_TBs=mfps4kbq515-bLhJ7p46RBvo+OAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnC3Z=7GwbS0o3LgX99U02n16vECSLy-DZ+U6+q=uga1UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7DvdXkVw1JLg=JgBc7ym_X4WN7SQGHDM9utCObT1nk_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeDM3zkPS_dVxSA86sc7Vg2i-xi3Yo9VHcu=aGvbcV0JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6_YA+5Otx7BMKnif2_wFL7v77ZExp-W3m_n28C3cWxxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCNZ1_8Lx-Td_TBs=mfps4kbq515-bLhJ7p46RBvo+OAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB70gMOj0SL5EBwO-Zeou=vZa56pZ1h_PYuyuXV5cJU49g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 10:08?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Detailed spectral analysis of the star's light could reveal
> differences between a Dyson cloud and dust. A Dyson cloud

I tend to think of them as patches with enough structure to keep the
whole thing connected.

>would likely
> show some signs of energy conversion, such as excess waste heat, which
> might manifest as an infrared signature.

>From my work on power satellites, I sort of doubt it.  It is possible
and advantageous to radiate waste heat at right angles to the local
ecliptic

?Dust clouds would not produce
> such heat signatures. Has such an analysis been done?? I would guess
> so, but I don't know the answer.

I think the object has been measured and the temperature turned out to be 65 K.
I suspect this is optimal for computation.

Keith
> -Kelly
>
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 3:24?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:21?AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 5:25?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> " next few centuries of transhumanism,"
> > >>
> > >> I doubt this.  Whatever the fate of humanity is, it will go to
> > >> completion within decades, not centuries.
> > >
> > > The fate of humanity will not go to completion for billions of years.
> >
> > Perhaps I was not clear.
> >
> > I suspect humans will abandon flesh (upload) within decades.  Maybe
> > not all of them, but the vast majority.
> >
> > I think what we see at Tabby's Star (and 24 others in that cluster) is
> > orbiting "dyson patches" that provide the physical level substrate for
> > vast numbers (trillions?) of uploaded aliens and a simulated
> > environment. The biggest one of them (so far) is over 400 times the
> > area of the Earth, and even out at 7 AU it is collecting 1.4 million
> > times the energy humans use today.  Why so far out?  If these patches
> > are for computation, the low temperature (65 K) will reduce the error
> > rate (and the power needed for computation).
> >
> > What limits the size?  Most likely the speed of light,  Bigger, and
> > communication would take an unreasonable (subjective) time to get from
> > edge to edge.
> >
> > Now I could be dead wrong on this analysis, and I hope I am, we don't
> > need the competition.
> >
> > But if I am not and we follow the aliens at Tabby's Star, things will
> > get very strange as we sail up the singularity curve.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > PS.  Needless to say, full-scale nanotechnology is required to upload.
> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Keith
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 1:43?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> > >> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > I doubt this is a novel train of thought... but...
> > >> >
> > >> > One of the more interesting ways that transhumanism could be "bad" is
> > >> > the idea that over the next few centuries of transhumanism, different
> > >> > "species" of human could rapidly evolve (though not through natural
> > >> > selection, unnaturally) into islands of trans-humans that can no
> > >> > longer interbreed. By creating this rapidly dividing delta in the
> > >> > river of hominid divergence, it could create interesting dynamics of
> > >> > "us" and "them" which could lead to a destructive fragmentation of
> > >> > society.
> > >> >
> > >> > I welcome science fiction along these lines...
> > >> >
> > >> > -Kelly
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> extropy-chat mailing list
> > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Dec 13 19:17:59 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Study shows it might never be too late to live longer by
 dieting
Message-ID: <CAL_armgBV1tXcHoiViYBCrPk3AV=+NYnoJqEUhU_6-_tyN8NRg@mail.gmail.com>

Study shows it might never be too late to live longer by dieting
Cutting calories might not be much fun, but it just might be a way to
extend your lifespan at any age
By Michael Franco      December 13, 2023

<https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/live-longer-calorie-restriction/>
Quotes:
Scientists fed fruit flies a diet to make them extra plump. In their
old age, the researchers put them on a diet and found remarkable
results. If the findings transfer to humans, it might mean we can
improve our health at any age by cutting calories.

?The remarkable finding of this study is that even after living a
significant portion of their lives on a high calorie diet, flies can
gain the benefits of life span extension by simply switching to a low
calorie diet,? said UConn School of Medicine Genetics and Genome
Sciences Chair Brent Graveley.
-----------

How can we have a low-calorie Christmas dinner?   :)

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Dec 13 19:23:36 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 11:23:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Study shows it might never be too late to live longer by
 dieting
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgBV1tXcHoiViYBCrPk3AV=+NYnoJqEUhU_6-_tyN8NRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgBV1tXcHoiViYBCrPk3AV=+NYnoJqEUhU_6-_tyN8NRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005a01da2df9$df2b6280$9d822780$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Study shows it might never be too late to live longer by dieting

Study shows it might never be too late to live longer by dieting Cutting calories might not be much fun, but it just might be a way to extend your lifespan at any age
By Michael Franco      December 13, 2023
...
-----------

>...How can we have a low-calorie Christmas dinner?   :)

BillK

_______________________________________________



Convert to Latter-Day Wiccan?

spike



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 06:57:43 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 22:57:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Anders interview
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB682hc9942bqCXSqxLhe6THXFhRx9A+pt3Wb5dYbFESTg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.ft.com/content/14123e16-25ab-45f1-912d-34ffcf0c8177

Keith

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 16:26:29 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:26:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] police
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbJdGh8NX53WGi-KO0kVG6BdBa4-s=quaOpDPmDiXhCTw@mail.gmail.com>

Jackson MS police have been found to have buried several people themselves.

"Hey, here's a dead body. I should know - I just shot him.  Take him in?
Too much trouble and I could get in trouble.  Partner - are you up to just
bury this guy?"

This has happened more than once here.  Feds are investigating.

Hard to believe.  Think we need better people as police officers?   bill w
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 16:42:11 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 08:42:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] copy of Washington Post comment re AI
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5BTWj2icjAG5tsa0hEK3AxRMwk02o7-VHCWOM4t8R=yA@mail.gmail.com>

"It must be regulated."

The trouble is that nobody knows how to regulate AI except in the
vaguest terms. I don't know and I have thought about AI for 20 years,
followed the discussions by Eliezer Yudkowsky on Friendly AI,
contributed a little to those discussions and wrote fiction about it
(The Clinic Seed
https://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson1.html

I had a little influence because nobody talks about copying a human
brain to get an AI anymore. (Evolution has left humans with deep
psychological traits such as going to war when caught in a resource
crisis.) We don't want an AI that goes into war mode like humans do.

When (and if) we give AIs motivation, we should look for the best
humans have. Suskulan, the AI in the story, "had other carefully
selected human personality characteristics such as seeking the good
opinion of its peers (humans and other of its kind alike). It also had
a few unhuman limits."

There are a number of SF stories with AI themes. The classic is "The
Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert Heinlein. The AI, Mike, is central
to the story.

It is a little dated, but "The Revolution From Rosinante" [The
Rosinante Trilogy by Alexis A. Gilliland] is excellent. Have you ever
considered an AI that founds a new religion?

Keith

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 18:53:39 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:53:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] New project for EFF (maybe)
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Cindy, John

My response to an article on slashdot about hackers that removed the
code that bricked trains.

If there were social support, programmers could just refuse on ethical
grounds to write the code that bricks a train or anything else.

Long ago when I was faced with something similar, I was just fired.
If there was an organization that made such behavior public in a way
that seriously hurt the reputation of a company, they might think
twice about such abuse.

Would we have to start a new organization for programmers or is there
an existing one that could take on this function?  The EFF comes to
mind, but open to other suggestions.  I will ask the EFF if they would
consider this.

Keith

Keith

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 23:24:37 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 15:24:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] New project for EFF (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206@swisscows.email>
References: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7O5EnyMAa2h6nEPSm=rd0x7NHot1Z-g9-TqB7daKrAng@mail.gmail.com>

What I am proposing here is a cultural shift.

I suspect programmers feel guilty about writing code to make things fail.

If a substantial number of them said this is unethical and we won't do
it, chances are the companies would quit asking.

Companies are concerned about their reputation and being known as a
company that forces programmers to do something considered unethical
is not going to enhance their reputation.

It's a long shot I know, but might be worth talking up.

Keith

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:45?PM efc via extropolis
<extropolis at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Excellent idea Keith.
>
> Having a masters degree in philosophy, I'm a bit "damaged" so I always
> make it a point to try and have a discussion with my students about the
> ethics of technology and make them think about the world and future they
> want to help shape through their technical work in the future.
>
> I think this is a conversation that should start early, and that
> technologists should have often, but it is not enough.
>
> As long as you are dependent on a salary, and the ask seems relatively
> small and insignificant, it is all too easy to choose the path of least
> resistance and then justify it to yourself or just forget about it.
>
> Perhaps with some kind of organization helping out in some way, it might
> make that choice a little bit easier on individuals who feel that they
> have no other choice due to financial reasons.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023, Keith Henson wrote:
>
> > Hi Cindy, John
> >
> > My response to an article on slashdot about hackers that removed the
> > code that bricked trains.
> >
> > If there were social support, programmers could just refuse on ethical
> > grounds to write the code that bricks a train or anything else.
> >
> > Long ago when I was faced with something similar, I was just fired.
> > If there was an organization that made such behavior public in a way
> > that seriously hurt the reputation of a company, they might think
> > twice about such abuse.
> >
> > Would we have to start a new organization for programmers or is there
> > an existing one that could take on this function?  The EFF comes to
> > mind, but open to other suggestions.  I will ask the EFF if they would
> > consider this.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206%40swisscows.email.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 23:27:46 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 18:27:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New project for EFF (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJh1U3mPEdeaNLX2zSdx8CLgL+5+7Y_YGV9O4QyRX93AQ@mail.gmail.com>

Please do inquire about finding a champion (or starting one) that gives
programmers some ethical protection from their employers over the asks (we)
find objectionable

It's a significant issue and growing in relevance

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 4:42 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hi Cindy, John
>
> My response to an article on slashdot about hackers that removed the
> code that bricked trains.
>
> If there were social support, programmers could just refuse on ethical
> grounds to write the code that bricks a train or anything else.
>
> Long ago when I was faced with something similar, I was just fired.
> If there was an organization that made such behavior public in a way
> that seriously hurt the reputation of a company, they might think
> twice about such abuse.
>
> Would we have to start a new organization for programmers or is there
> an existing one that could take on this function?  The EFF comes to
> mind, but open to other suggestions.  I will ask the EFF if they would
> consider this.
>
> Keith
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Dec 14 23:29:48 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 15:29:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] New project for EFF (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7O5EnyMAa2h6nEPSm=rd0x7NHot1Z-g9-TqB7daKrAng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206@swisscows.email>
 <CAPiwVB7O5EnyMAa2h6nEPSm=rd0x7NHot1Z-g9-TqB7daKrAng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSj7JYfH5UVXDwR6fi9vp54P5AhuMEuWo85DwMmO-3+gA@mail.gmail.com>

I am not aware of any industry, save certain government institutions where
ethics (or lack thereof) demonstrably impacts performance, where there is
both a large labor force and enough workers who care about ethics to
meaningfully enforce ethics.

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 3:26?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What I am proposing here is a cultural shift.
>
> I suspect programmers feel guilty about writing code to make things fail.
>
> If a substantial number of them said this is unethical and we won't do
> it, chances are the companies would quit asking.
>
> Companies are concerned about their reputation and being known as a
> company that forces programmers to do something considered unethical
> is not going to enhance their reputation.
>
> It's a long shot I know, but might be worth talking up.
>
> Keith
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:45?PM efc via extropolis
> <extropolis at googlegroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > Excellent idea Keith.
> >
> > Having a masters degree in philosophy, I'm a bit "damaged" so I always
> > make it a point to try and have a discussion with my students about the
> > ethics of technology and make them think about the world and future they
> > want to help shape through their technical work in the future.
> >
> > I think this is a conversation that should start early, and that
> > technologists should have often, but it is not enough.
> >
> > As long as you are dependent on a salary, and the ask seems relatively
> > small and insignificant, it is all too easy to choose the path of least
> > resistance and then justify it to yourself or just forget about it.
> >
> > Perhaps with some kind of organization helping out in some way, it might
> > make that choice a little bit easier on individuals who feel that they
> > have no other choice due to financial reasons.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Dec 2023, Keith Henson wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Cindy, John
> > >
> > > My response to an article on slashdot about hackers that removed the
> > > code that bricked trains.
> > >
> > > If there were social support, programmers could just refuse on ethical
> > > grounds to write the code that bricks a train or anything else.
> > >
> > > Long ago when I was faced with something similar, I was just fired.
> > > If there was an organization that made such behavior public in a way
> > > that seriously hurt the reputation of a company, they might think
> > > twice about such abuse.
> > >
> > > Would we have to start a new organization for programmers or is there
> > > an existing one that could take on this function?  The EFF comes to
> > > mind, but open to other suggestions.  I will ask the EFF if they would
> > > consider this.
> > >
> > > Keith
> > >
> > > Keith
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "extropolis" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206%40swisscows.email
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 00:41:43 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 16:41:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] New project for EFF (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSj7JYfH5UVXDwR6fi9vp54P5AhuMEuWo85DwMmO-3+gA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206@swisscows.email>
 <CAPiwVB7O5EnyMAa2h6nEPSm=rd0x7NHot1Z-g9-TqB7daKrAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSj7JYfH5UVXDwR6fi9vp54P5AhuMEuWo85DwMmO-3+gA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7wn1syuLJe9C4TUJ9_2UwH7aEdzGA_0c3C9gFLmRKdyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 3:31?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I am not aware of any industry, save certain government institutions where ethics (or lack thereof) demonstrably impacts performance, where there is both a large labor force and enough workers who care about ethics to meaningfully enforce ethics.

The military is a government institution where people are *required*
to disobey certain orders.  But you are correct.

Perhaps the AI business makes this the time to pass laws protecting
programmers who are ordered to do unethical work.

> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 3:26?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> What I am proposing here is a cultural shift.
>>
>> I suspect programmers feel guilty about writing code to make things fail.
>>
>> If a substantial number of them said this is unethical and we won't do
>> it, chances are the companies would quit asking.
>>
>> Companies are concerned about their reputation and being known as a
>> company that forces programmers to do something considered unethical
>> is not going to enhance their reputation.
>>
>> It's a long shot I know, but might be worth talking up.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:45?PM efc via extropolis
>> <extropolis at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Excellent idea Keith.
>> >
>> > Having a masters degree in philosophy, I'm a bit "damaged" so I always
>> > make it a point to try and have a discussion with my students about the
>> > ethics of technology and make them think about the world and future they
>> > want to help shape through their technical work in the future.
>> >
>> > I think this is a conversation that should start early, and that
>> > technologists should have often, but it is not enough.
>> >
>> > As long as you are dependent on a salary, and the ask seems relatively
>> > small and insignificant, it is all too easy to choose the path of least
>> > resistance and then justify it to yourself or just forget about it.
>> >
>> > Perhaps with some kind of organization helping out in some way, it might
>> > make that choice a little bit easier on individuals who feel that they
>> > have no other choice due to financial reasons.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Daniel
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, 14 Dec 2023, Keith Henson wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi Cindy, John
>> > >
>> > > My response to an article on slashdot about hackers that removed the
>> > > code that bricked trains.
>> > >
>> > > If there were social support, programmers could just refuse on ethical
>> > > grounds to write the code that bricks a train or anything else.
>> > >
>> > > Long ago when I was faced with something similar, I was just fired.
>> > > If there was an organization that made such behavior public in a way
>> > > that seriously hurt the reputation of a company, they might think
>> > > twice about such abuse.
>> > >
>> > > Would we have to start a new organization for programmers or is there
>> > > an existing one that could take on this function?  The EFF comes to
>> > > mind, but open to other suggestions.  I will ask the EFF if they would
>> > > consider this.
>> > >
>> > > Keith
>> > >
>> > > Keith
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206%40swisscows.email.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 00:44:14 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 16:44:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] New project for EFF (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7wn1syuLJe9C4TUJ9_2UwH7aEdzGA_0c3C9gFLmRKdyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206@swisscows.email>
 <CAPiwVB7O5EnyMAa2h6nEPSm=rd0x7NHot1Z-g9-TqB7daKrAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSj7JYfH5UVXDwR6fi9vp54P5AhuMEuWo85DwMmO-3+gA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7wn1syuLJe9C4TUJ9_2UwH7aEdzGA_0c3C9gFLmRKdyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQh7zd-HXPkJsn-e+rhvPCfusYfbNPmPWH-_t0zAOL8_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 4:42?PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 3:31?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I am not aware of any industry, save certain government institutions
> where ethics (or lack thereof) demonstrably impacts performance, where
> there is both a large labor force and enough workers who care about ethics
> to meaningfully enforce ethics.
>
> The military is a government institution where people are *required*
> to disobey certain orders.  But you are correct.
>

The military is one example I was thinking of.  Judges are another.


> Perhaps the AI business makes this the time to pass laws protecting
> programmers who are ordered to do unethical work.
>

Something akin to whistleblower protection laws?  Perhaps, but those don't
seem to work so well in practice, do they?
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 03:18:15 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 19:18:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] New project for EFF (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQh7zd-HXPkJsn-e+rhvPCfusYfbNPmPWH-_t0zAOL8_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206@swisscows.email>
 <CAPiwVB7O5EnyMAa2h6nEPSm=rd0x7NHot1Z-g9-TqB7daKrAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSj7JYfH5UVXDwR6fi9vp54P5AhuMEuWo85DwMmO-3+gA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7wn1syuLJe9C4TUJ9_2UwH7aEdzGA_0c3C9gFLmRKdyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQh7zd-HXPkJsn-e+rhvPCfusYfbNPmPWH-_t0zAOL8_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6bjkOfUO7eZg=BZ4pTTf8CU-O6F_U40D19weaUePTb9A@mail.gmail.com>

"but those don't seem to work so well in practice, do they? "

That's the case.

I am thinking that in practice this would seldom surface.  Perhaps it
should be backed up by punishment for programmers.  An employer can't
ask an employee to do illegal acts.  Needs though.

Keith

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 4:45?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 4:42?PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 3:31?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > I am not aware of any industry, save certain government institutions where ethics (or lack thereof) demonstrably impacts performance, where there is both a large labor force and enough workers who care about ethics to meaningfully enforce ethics.
>>
>> The military is a government institution where people are *required*
>> to disobey certain orders.  But you are correct.
>
>
> The military is one example I was thinking of.  Judges are another.
>
>>
>> Perhaps the AI business makes this the time to pass laws protecting
>> programmers who are ordered to do unethical work.
>
>
> Something akin to whistleblower protection laws?  Perhaps, but those don't seem to work so well in practice, do they?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 21:22:47 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 21:22:47 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Tesla claims solar-backed Powerwall saves more than backup
 generators
Message-ID: <CAL_armg=Qo9z1yt5cQD4WMgfpZZqaYSFSi3QMxw8CS2WONtgHg@mail.gmail.com>

Tesla claims solar-backed Powerwall saves more than backup generators.
Discover the financial and environmental benefits of Tesla's Powerwall
with solar, claiming to be 20% cheaper over a decade than traditional
backup generators.
By Can Emir     Published: Dec 15, 2023

<https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/tesla-claims-solar-backed-powerwalls-saves-more-than-backup-generators>
Quotes:
Tesla has released a comprehensive comparison report asserting that
its Powerwall, when paired with solar, presents a more cost-effective
solution for backup power than traditional backup generators.

The report aims to guide consumers in making informed decisions about
home energy solutions, emphasizing the economic benefits and
maintenance of the environmental advantages.
----------

Tesla may have been slightly biased in preparing their analysis,  ;)
so I asked an AI for a second opinion.
The AI seemed to mostly agree (dependent on individual circumstances).

BillK

AI Report:
The analysis provided by Tesla on their website, comparing Powerwall
and backup generators, is generally correct. However, it's important
to note that the comparison is based on certain assumptions and there
may be situations where a backup generator would be a better fit than
Powerwall. Here are some points to consider:

1. Purpose: Powerwall is designed to provide energy storage for solar
self-consumption, time-of-use shifting, and backup power during
outages. Backup generators, on the other hand, are primarily designed
to provide backup power during outages.

2. Capacity: Powerwall has a capacity of 13.5 kWh, while backup
generators can have varying capacities, typically ranging from a few
kilowatts to several hundred kilowatts.

3. Cost: Powerwall is generally more expensive than backup generators,
especially when considering the cost per kWh of storage.

4. Efficiency: Powerwall has a round-trip efficiency of around 90%,
meaning that 10% of the stored energy is lost during charging and
discharging. Backup generators typically have a lower efficiency,
around 20-30%, due to the conversion of fuel to electricity.

5. Maintenance: Powerwall requires minimal maintenance, while backup
generators require regular maintenance, such as oil changes, filter
replacements, and inspections.

6. Noise: Powerwall is relatively quiet, while backup generators can
produce significant noise during operation.

7. Flexibility: Powerwall can be easily expanded by adding additional
units, while backup generators may require more significant upgrades
or replacements to increase capacity.

8. Sustainability: Powerwall is a more sustainable option, as it
stores renewable energy and reduces reliance on fossil fuels. Backup
generators, on the other hand, rely on fossil fuels and emit
greenhouse gases.

9. Installation: Powerwall is designed for easy installation, while
backup generators typically require a more complex installation
process, including fuel line and electrical connections.

10. Monitoring: Powerwall comes with built-in monitoring and control
through the Tesla app, while backup generators may require separate
monitoring systems.

In summary, Powerwall and backup generators serve different purposes
and have different characteristics. Powerwall is designed for energy
storage and backup power during outages, while backup generators are
primarily designed for backup power during outages. The choice between
the two depends on individual needs, budget, and preferences.
-------------------------------

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 15 21:46:25 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 21:46:25 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Boy is fitted with Iron Man themed bionic arm
Message-ID: <CAL_armid7Aa2N45X7MUmc54Vayycu=49BOmkEA6MPiAO+=Kz0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Boy?s dream comes true as he is fitted with Iron Man themed bionic arm.

Harry Jones can now enjoy two-handed activities with his friends such
as riding a bike and karting after getting superhero limb on the NHS.
By Brendan McFadden    December 15, 2023

<https://inews.co.uk/news/boys-dream-comes-true-iron-man-bionic-arm-2812494>
Quotes:
Harry Jones, of Leyland, Lancashire, who was born missing his right
arm below his elbow, had always dreamed of having a robot arm so he
could enjoy two-handed activities with his friends such as riding a
bike and karting.

This week his ambition was realised after he was fitted with his Iron
Man-themed ?Hero Arm? which was created by Open Bionics and can mimic
real hand movements.

Harry is one of the first non-military veterans in the UK to be fitted
with a life-changing bionic arm through the NHS. The health service
made them available to civilians last year.
-----------------

Christmas Good News story!

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 11:40:02 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 11:40:02 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Could the Universe Be Finite?
Message-ID: <CAL_armjFa3NLV-9ji=YCQtAEV4ss2_pQwL+6ptf9_M+CrSMJRQ@mail.gmail.com>

It?s not absurd to think the universe might have an edge.
By Eric Schwitzgebel & Jacob Barandes    December 15, 2023

On recent estimates, the observable universe?the portion of the
universe that we can detect through our telescopes?extends about 47
billion light-years in every direction. But the limit of what we can
see is one thing, and the limit of what exists is quite another.

<https://nautil.us/could-the-universe-be-finite-466593/>
Quote:
Leading cosmologists, including Alex Vilenkin, Max Tegmark, and Andrei
Linde, have argued that spatial infinitude is the natural consequence
of the best current theories of cosmic inflation. Given that, plus the
absence of evidence for an edge or closed topology, infinitude seems a
reasonable default view. The mere 47 billion light-years we can see is
the tiniest speck of a smidgen of a drop in an endless expanse.
--------------

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 14:01:36 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:01:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] OpenAI planning for Superintelligent AI
Message-ID: <CAL_armjYoMTxOpjYkcQzBYZ+SQde9mUi8bUqRJ3pnCTrTN+ngA@mail.gmail.com>

We present a new research direction for superalignment, together with
promising initial results: can we leverage the generalization
properties of deep learning to control strong models with weak
supervisors?
December 14, 2023

<https://openai.com/research/weak-to-strong-generalization>
Quotes:
A core challenge for aligning future superhuman AI systems
(superalignment) is that humans will need to supervise AI systems much
smarter than them.

The superalignment problem

We believe superintelligence?AI vastly smarter than humans?could be
developed within the next ten years. However, we still do not know how
to reliably steer and control superhuman AI systems. Solving this
problem is essential for ensuring that even the most advanced AI
systems in the future remain safe and beneficial to humanity.
----------

Well, at least they are trying.  It might be an impossible task though.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 16 15:38:01 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 07:38:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] OpenAI planning for Superintelligent AI
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjYoMTxOpjYkcQzBYZ+SQde9mUi8bUqRJ3pnCTrTN+ngA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjYoMTxOpjYkcQzBYZ+SQde9mUi8bUqRJ3pnCTrTN+ngA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003301da3035$dae658e0$90b30aa0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, 16 December, 2023 6:02 AM
...

>...We believe superintelligence?AI vastly smarter than humans?could be developed within the next ten years. However, we still do not know how to reliably steer and control superhuman AI systems. Solving this problem is essential for ensuring that even the most advanced AI systems in the future remain safe and beneficial to humanity.
----------

Well, at least they are trying.  It might be an impossible task though.

BillK

_______________________________________________


AI News is claiming this:

AI gives birth to AI: Scientists say machine intelligence now capable of replicating without humans
by | Dec 15, 2023 | AI News

https://www.aicommission.org/2023/12/ai-gives-birth-to-ai-scientists-say-machine-intelligence-now-capable-of-replicating-without-humans/

It is unclear if these guys are headline grabbers or are the real deal.  Plenty of publicity seekers are active these days.

If what they say is true, any attempts to regulate AI is pointless.  Law doesn't apply to software.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 16 16:42:00 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 08:42:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
Message-ID: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

In our socially turbulent times, may I suggest an acceptably politically
correct alternative to the traditional and offensive "Merry Christmas."

 

Greetings fellow human-presenting life form!  Do have a most satisfactory
experience during this arbitrarily festive period when our fragile planet's
orbit causes the northern hemisphere to reach the point of minimum solar
exposure. 

 

spike

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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 16:43:46 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 11:43:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Could the Universe Be Finite?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjFa3NLV-9ji=YCQtAEV4ss2_pQwL+6ptf9_M+CrSMJRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFa3NLV-9ji=YCQtAEV4ss2_pQwL+6ptf9_M+CrSMJRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjcuXt6XRuHXcc3V-Mr9+9rg2g=BmH_8T+7Fk6NsissOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023, 6:41 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It?s not absurd to think the universe might have an edge.
> By Eric Schwitzgebel & Jacob Barandes    December 15, 2023
>
> On recent estimates, the observable universe?the portion of the
> universe that we can detect through our telescopes?extends about 47
> billion light-years in every direction. But the limit of what we can
> see is one thing, and the limit of what exists is quite another.
>
> <https://nautil.us/could-the-universe-be-finite-466593/>
> Quote:
> Leading cosmologists, including Alex Vilenkin, Max Tegmark, and Andrei
> Linde, have argued that spatial infinitude is the natural consequence
> of the best current theories of cosmic inflation. Given that, plus the
> absence of evidence for an edge or closed topology, infinitude seems a
> reasonable default view. The mere 47 billion light-years we can see is
> the tiniest speck of a smidgen of a drop in an endless expanse.
>

Here is a good explanation of how the universe can be spatially infinite
when seen from inside a finite bubble created by inflation:

https://youtu.be/rfeJhzPq3jQ

Jason


--------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 16:57:43 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:57:43 +0000
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjk0QZ18PU1=YKYDQ5drdid3hajVTaa1JeuEdrA3UVvRw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 at 16:44, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> In our socially turbulent times, may I suggest an acceptably politically correct alternative to the traditional and offensive ?Merry Christmas.?
> Greetings fellow human-presenting life form!  Do have a most satisfactory experience during this arbitrarily festive period when our fragile planet?s orbit causes the northern hemisphere to reach the point of minimum solar exposure.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Nice try, but can AI do better?   BillK

Greetings, fellow human-presenting life form! I extend my warmest
salutations to you and wish you a most delightful and fulfilling
experience during this joyous and arbitrarily festive period. It is a
time when our wondrous planet, with its delicate orbit, positions the
northern hemisphere at the point of minimum solar exposure, creating a
unique atmosphere of celebration and reflection.

As we gather together, let us embrace the beauty of this extraordinary
celestial dance and appreciate the interconnectedness of our lives
with the cosmic forces that govern our world. This moment serves as a
reminder of the magnificence and fragility of our existence, urging us
to cherish the precious gift of life.

Amidst the wintry landscapes and the gentle caress of frost, we find
ourselves in a season that encourages introspection and gratitude. It
is an opportunity to reflect upon the year that has passed, to
acknowledge our accomplishments, and to learn from the challenges we
have faced. Let us take this time to celebrate our resilience, our
growth, and the bonds we have formed with one another.

As we navigate through the darkness, both metaphorically and
literally, let the glow of human connection and compassion illuminate
our path. May the warmth of love and kindness radiate from our hearts,
reaching out to those in need and fostering a sense of unity and
togetherness.

In this season of festivities and merriment, let us embrace the
diversity of our global community. Through shared traditions, stories,
and celebrations, we can bridge the gaps that separate us, fostering
understanding and harmony across cultures and continents. Together, we
can create a tapestry of human experiences, woven with threads of
compassion, empathy, and acceptance.

As the world turns and the seasons change, let us not forget the
importance of our collective responsibility to safeguard and nurture
our planet. In the face of environmental challenges, let us commit
ourselves to sustainable practices and conscientious stewardship of
our natural resources. By doing so, we can ensure a brighter future
for generations to come.

So, dear fellow human, as we revel in the magic of this arbitrary yet
meaningful festive period, let us embrace the spirit of joy, unity,
and reflection. May it serve as a reminder of our shared humanity, our
interconnectedness with the cosmos, and the boundless potential within
each of us. May your experience during this season be filled with
love, laughter, and a profound sense of gratitude.
------------------


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 16 17:28:47 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 09:28:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjk0QZ18PU1=YKYDQ5drdid3hajVTaa1JeuEdrA3UVvRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjk0QZ18PU1=YKYDQ5drdid3hajVTaa1JeuEdrA3UVvRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008c01da3045$54ba8ec0$fe2fac40$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] pc alternative

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 at 16:44, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> In our socially turbulent times, may I suggest an acceptably politically correct alternative to the traditional and offensive ?Merry Christmas.?
> Greetings fellow human-presenting life form!  Do have a most satisfactory experience during this arbitrarily festive period when our fragile planet?s orbit causes the northern hemisphere to reach the point of minimum solar exposure.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>...Nice try, but can AI do better?   BillK

>...Greetings, fellow human-presenting life form! I extend my warmest salutations to you ...during this season be filled with love, laughter, and a profound sense of gratitude.
------------------

_______________________________________________


Ja.  I surrender.  I thought I was good with words, but AI is better.  I suck.  This feels like a repeat of the collective experience of many regular club chess players of the late 1980s, when computer chess started clobbering us regularly.

Bill Joy was right.  The future doesn't need us.

spike



From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 17:47:39 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 18:47:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycrRUyQoLzkxmTU56p-HWD9SZi-F3ZWujn=vUrza93iBw@mail.gmail.com>

On 2023. Dec 16., Sat at 17:43, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> In our socially turbulent times, may I suggest an acceptably politically
> correct alternative to the traditional and offensive ?Merry Christmas.?
>

I like the traditional and beautiful ?Merry Christmas.? Those who find it
?offensive? can fuck off.


>
> Greetings fellow human-presenting life form!  Do have a most satisfactory
> experience during this arbitrarily festive period when our fragile planet?s
> orbit causes the northern hemisphere to reach the point of minimum solar
> exposure.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 17:53:21 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 17:53:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <008c01da3045$54ba8ec0$fe2fac40$@rainier66.com>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjk0QZ18PU1=YKYDQ5drdid3hajVTaa1JeuEdrA3UVvRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008c01da3045$54ba8ec0$fe2fac40$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiOSH3h5NSjQ02UpPQZHg613cK-=261EhGptewGd0baCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 at 17:28, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> Ja.  I surrender.  I thought I was good with words, but AI is better.  I suck.  This feels like a repeat of the collective experience of many regular club chess players of the late 1980s, when computer chess started clobbering us regularly.
>
> Bill Joy was right.  The future doesn't need us.
>
> spike
>----------------------------------------------

Yes, I was a bit shocked when it produced that poetic screed.

It says it doesn't know what it is saying and it is only an LLM.
(But it could be lying).

An AGI should have no problem persuading a mere human that it knows best.

BillK

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 17:58:29 2023
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 09:58:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycrRUyQoLzkxmTU56p-HWD9SZi-F3ZWujn=vUrza93iBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycrRUyQoLzkxmTU56p-HWD9SZi-F3ZWujn=vUrza93iBw@mail.gmail.com>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 16 18:10:47 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:10:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiOSH3h5NSjQ02UpPQZHg613cK-=261EhGptewGd0baCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjk0QZ18PU1=YKYDQ5drdid3hajVTaa1JeuEdrA3UVvRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008c01da3045$54ba8ec0$fe2fac40$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiOSH3h5NSjQ02UpPQZHg613cK-=261EhGptewGd0baCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01da304b$3265be20$97313a60$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
...
Subject: Re: [ExI] pc alternative

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 at 17:28, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> Ja.  I surrender.  I thought I was good with words, but AI is better.  I
suck...
>
> Bill Joy was right.  The future doesn't need us.
>
> spike
>----------------------------------------------

>...Yes, I was a bit shocked when it produced that poetic screed.

>...It says it doesn't know what it is saying and it is only an LLM.
(But it could be lying).

>...An AGI should have no problem persuading a mere human that it knows
best.

BillK
_______________________________________________




BillK, do let me offer an alternative take.  AI did a terrific job with the
PC Merry Christmas.  But we could do that too, any one of us.  If a prole
were to take the time and effort, go to the local stationer and read the
Christmas cards, read thru the birthday greeting cards, read the sympathy
cards... that prole could write a decent message for any of those occasions,
even though she is really just creating a newly-shuffled version of what is
on those cards.  She could do that even if she doesn't deeply feel the
emotion she is writing about.  So... ChatGPT is really doing that.

A long time ago, a Hollywood movie with Jack Nicholson described a person
like this: one who was talented with words but had no empathy at all.  He
was a writer of romance novels but who hates everything and everybody
(except Carol (he loves Carol (she can't figure out why.)))  It is called As
Good As It Gets.  Jack was playing the human equivalent of AI.

Perhaps this is what makes AI so scary: we can create the software
equivalent of Melvin Udall.

spike


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 18:12:32 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 19:12:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <703E04A3-B7A3-40AC-A29B-47E7FD14CC58@gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycrRUyQoLzkxmTU56p-HWD9SZi-F3ZWujn=vUrza93iBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <703E04A3-B7A3-40AC-A29B-47E7FD14CC58@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfDM4YjD795oKAKqK9KdX=9YP1JozLJFQ644h3QrWR+-w@mail.gmail.com>

On 2023. Dec 16., Sat at 18:59, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Dec 16, 2023, at 9:49 AM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On 2023. Dec 16., Sat at 17:43, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> In our socially turbulent times, may I suggest an acceptably politically
>> correct alternative to the traditional and offensive ?Merry Christmas.?
>>
>
> I like the traditional and beautiful ?Merry Christmas.? Those who find it
> ?offensive? can fuck off.
>
>
> In my experience, the people who want _everyone_ to use ?Merry Christmas?
> get offended when someone says ?Happy Holidays? or ?Seasons Greetings.? In
> fact, a few years ago, I ran into a woman who got really angry when I said
> ?Happy Holidays? to her. I was amazed because this was in Seattle and,
> though I wasn?t a close friend of hers, I didn?t realize just how upset she
> might get.
>

I don?t get offended. Feel free to say ?Happy Holidays? or whatever it is
that you like to say. But I?ll continue to say ?Merry Christmas.? And to
those who feel ?offended,? well, I said already what I had to say.


> Happy holidays!
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Dec 16 18:28:59 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 13:28:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycrRUyQoLzkxmTU56p-HWD9SZi-F3ZWujn=vUrza93iBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKTCJycrRUyQoLzkxmTU56p-HWD9SZi-F3ZWujn=vUrza93iBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13b387d76e08f88c9a5e334f72e481aa.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



On Sat, December 16, 2023 12:47, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>
> I like the traditional and beautiful ?Merry Christmas.? Those who find it
> ?offensive? can fuck off.
>

Thank you, Gulio, and Merry Christmas to you also. :)

Warm regards,
MB

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 18:50:48 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:50:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Could the Universe Be Finite?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUjcuXt6XRuHXcc3V-Mr9+9rg2g=BmH_8T+7Fk6NsissOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFa3NLV-9ji=YCQtAEV4ss2_pQwL+6ptf9_M+CrSMJRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjcuXt6XRuHXcc3V-Mr9+9rg2g=BmH_8T+7Fk6NsissOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7H-GSo9g_htRSJRtKXHc63Q8RLn+ZNs0hGmLYCzniirw@mail.gmail.com>

Finite or infinite, I can't see any practical application

Keith

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:45?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023, 6:41 AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> It?s not absurd to think the universe might have an edge.
>> By Eric Schwitzgebel & Jacob Barandes    December 15, 2023
>>
>> On recent estimates, the observable universe?the portion of the
>> universe that we can detect through our telescopes?extends about 47
>> billion light-years in every direction. But the limit of what we can
>> see is one thing, and the limit of what exists is quite another.
>>
>> <https://nautil.us/could-the-universe-be-finite-466593/>
>> Quote:
>> Leading cosmologists, including Alex Vilenkin, Max Tegmark, and Andrei
>> Linde, have argued that spatial infinitude is the natural consequence
>> of the best current theories of cosmic inflation. Given that, plus the
>> absence of evidence for an edge or closed topology, infinitude seems a
>> reasonable default view. The mere 47 billion light-years we can see is
>> the tiniest speck of a smidgen of a drop in an endless expanse.
>
>
> Here is a good explanation of how the universe can be spatially infinite when seen from inside a finite bubble created by inflation:
>
> https://youtu.be/rfeJhzPq3jQ
>
> Jason
>
>
>> --------------
>>
>> BillK
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 19:02:13 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:02:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Could the Universe Be Finite?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7H-GSo9g_htRSJRtKXHc63Q8RLn+ZNs0hGmLYCzniirw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFa3NLV-9ji=YCQtAEV4ss2_pQwL+6ptf9_M+CrSMJRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjcuXt6XRuHXcc3V-Mr9+9rg2g=BmH_8T+7Fk6NsissOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7H-GSo9g_htRSJRtKXHc63Q8RLn+ZNs0hGmLYCzniirw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUgNUN5QxXRSHtR547=dj8ern3dAo2xzzpekQwLFZuiF1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:51?PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Finite or infinite, I can't see any practical application
>

Perhaps there are no applications, but there are implications of living in
an infinite reality:


   -
   https://alwaysasking.com/how-big-is-the-universe/#Implications_of_an_Infinite_Reality
   - https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Implications


Jason


>
> Keith
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:45?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 16, 2023, 6:41 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> It?s not absurd to think the universe might have an edge.
> >> By Eric Schwitzgebel & Jacob Barandes    December 15, 2023
> >>
> >> On recent estimates, the observable universe?the portion of the
> >> universe that we can detect through our telescopes?extends about 47
> >> billion light-years in every direction. But the limit of what we can
> >> see is one thing, and the limit of what exists is quite another.
> >>
> >> <https://nautil.us/could-the-universe-be-finite-466593/>
> >> Quote:
> >> Leading cosmologists, including Alex Vilenkin, Max Tegmark, and Andrei
> >> Linde, have argued that spatial infinitude is the natural consequence
> >> of the best current theories of cosmic inflation. Given that, plus the
> >> absence of evidence for an edge or closed topology, infinitude seems a
> >> reasonable default view. The mere 47 billion light-years we can see is
> >> the tiniest speck of a smidgen of a drop in an endless expanse.
> >
> >
> > Here is a good explanation of how the universe can be spatially infinite
> when seen from inside a finite bubble created by inflation:
> >
> > https://youtu.be/rfeJhzPq3jQ
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >> --------------
> >>
> >> BillK
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 19:54:00 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 11:54:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Could the Universe Be Finite?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUgNUN5QxXRSHtR547=dj8ern3dAo2xzzpekQwLFZuiF1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFa3NLV-9ji=YCQtAEV4ss2_pQwL+6ptf9_M+CrSMJRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjcuXt6XRuHXcc3V-Mr9+9rg2g=BmH_8T+7Fk6NsissOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7H-GSo9g_htRSJRtKXHc63Q8RLn+ZNs0hGmLYCzniirw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUgNUN5QxXRSHtR547=dj8ern3dAo2xzzpekQwLFZuiF1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7Cyw2r4Fie8nn3D=RYkNEn1tGL3k4c6wTLzu=pyxV6ow@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:03?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 1:51?PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Finite or infinite, I can't see any practical application
>
> Perhaps there are no applications, but there are implications of living in an infinite reality:

If what we are seeing at Tabby's Star is alien data centers 400 times
the area of the Earth, then chances are we will not live in the base
reality.  It's really weird.  The physical constraints on these things
include orbital mechanics, energy/thermal balance and I think most
importantly the size of the structures is limited by the speed of
light.

A lot of these subjects such as uploading and computing in space using
solar energy were discussed on the early extropian list.  But I never
expected to see an example.

Keith

Keith

> https://alwaysasking.com/how-big-is-the-universe/#Implications_of_an_Infinite_Reality
> https://alwaysasking.com/why-does-anything-exist/#Implications
>
>
> Jason
>
>>
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:45?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Dec 16, 2023, 6:41 AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> It?s not absurd to think the universe might have an edge.
>> >> By Eric Schwitzgebel & Jacob Barandes    December 15, 2023
>> >>
>> >> On recent estimates, the observable universe?the portion of the
>> >> universe that we can detect through our telescopes?extends about 47
>> >> billion light-years in every direction. But the limit of what we can
>> >> see is one thing, and the limit of what exists is quite another.
>> >>
>> >> <https://nautil.us/could-the-universe-be-finite-466593/>
>> >> Quote:
>> >> Leading cosmologists, including Alex Vilenkin, Max Tegmark, and Andrei
>> >> Linde, have argued that spatial infinitude is the natural consequence
>> >> of the best current theories of cosmic inflation. Given that, plus the
>> >> absence of evidence for an edge or closed topology, infinitude seems a
>> >> reasonable default view. The mere 47 billion light-years we can see is
>> >> the tiniest speck of a smidgen of a drop in an endless expanse.
>> >
>> >
>> > Here is a good explanation of how the universe can be spatially infinite when seen from inside a finite bubble created by inflation:
>> >
>> > https://youtu.be/rfeJhzPq3jQ
>> >
>> > Jason
>> >
>> >
>> >> --------------
>> >>
>> >> BillK
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From dsunley at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 21:51:31 2023
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:51:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <13b387d76e08f88c9a5e334f72e481aa.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKTCJycrRUyQoLzkxmTU56p-HWD9SZi-F3ZWujn=vUrza93iBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <13b387d76e08f88c9a5e334f72e481aa.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQZQ24HE30zhwvfZMpE9UVd6G-2zPEA7TjJ-OO1=QS_Xg@mail.gmail.com>

Point of order: the Earth's orbit isn't even /remotely/ "delicate". The
amount of energy it would take to meaningfully alter it is almost
unimaginable.

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 11:31?AM MB via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, December 16, 2023 12:47, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote:
> >
> >
> > I like the traditional and beautiful ?Merry Christmas.? Those who find it
> > ?offensive? can fuck off.
> >
>
> Thank you, Gulio, and Merry Christmas to you also. :)
>
> Warm regards,
> MB
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 22:18:51 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:18:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQZQ24HE30zhwvfZMpE9UVd6G-2zPEA7TjJ-OO1=QS_Xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKTCJycrRUyQoLzkxmTU56p-HWD9SZi-F3ZWujn=vUrza93iBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <13b387d76e08f88c9a5e334f72e481aa.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAEptUkQZQ24HE30zhwvfZMpE9UVd6G-2zPEA7TjJ-OO1=QS_Xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnDQ_dDJgh2Tfwgnx8T83OKfechj9t49RunwNMEWYABxcg@mail.gmail.com>

I prefer the traditional understated... "Happy Ramahanakwanzmas"

-Kelly

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 22:23:27 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:23:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Could the Universe Be Finite?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7Cyw2r4Fie8nn3D=RYkNEn1tGL3k4c6wTLzu=pyxV6ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFa3NLV-9ji=YCQtAEV4ss2_pQwL+6ptf9_M+CrSMJRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjcuXt6XRuHXcc3V-Mr9+9rg2g=BmH_8T+7Fk6NsissOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7H-GSo9g_htRSJRtKXHc63Q8RLn+ZNs0hGmLYCzniirw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUgNUN5QxXRSHtR547=dj8ern3dAo2xzzpekQwLFZuiF1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7Cyw2r4Fie8nn3D=RYkNEn1tGL3k4c6wTLzu=pyxV6ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnDcE7uSnR5xtRi8k4_NngWEGgUUaOkMJOJM0E0+Rwssjw@mail.gmail.com>

Why would the simulation have the data center inside of it? I prefer
my creator to be outside this universe... by creator I mean the pimply
faced teenager that spawned the simulation in which we now find
ourselves.

-Kelly

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 12:55?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> If what we are seeing at Tabby's Star is alien data centers 400 times
> the area of the Earth, then chances are we will not live in the base
> reality.  It's really weird.  The physical constraints on these things
> include orbital mechanics, energy/thermal balance and I think most
> importantly the size of the structures is limited by the speed of
> light.
>


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 22:30:15 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:30:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] New project for EFF (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSj7JYfH5UVXDwR6fi9vp54P5AhuMEuWo85DwMmO-3+gA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206@swisscows.email>
 <CAPiwVB7O5EnyMAa2h6nEPSm=rd0x7NHot1Z-g9-TqB7daKrAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSj7JYfH5UVXDwR6fi9vp54P5AhuMEuWo85DwMmO-3+gA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnBRuQdXky2-==50Yvx-U7D=36DSxCkoNU3bbuNZsLErdA@mail.gmail.com>

When I worked at a large company with a smaller acquired software
division, I was encouraged to discontinue writing test driven code
because it "worked too well" and that charging for customer service to
keep their crappy code up and working was half of their revenue. In
the end, my supervisor removed all of my tests and merged all my code
into one untestable blob over a weekend. I was rather livid because I
was proud of the fact that I was creating relatively bug free code. I
didn't work there terribly long after that.

-Kelly

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 4:30?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I am not aware of any industry, save certain government institutions where ethics (or lack thereof) demonstrably impacts performance, where there is both a large labor force and enough workers who care about ethics to meaningfully enforce ethics.
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 3:26?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> What I am proposing here is a cultural shift.
>>
>> I suspect programmers feel guilty about writing code to make things fail.
>>
>> If a substantial number of them said this is unethical and we won't do
>> it, chances are the companies would quit asking.
>>
>> Companies are concerned about their reputation and being known as a
>> company that forces programmers to do something considered unethical
>> is not going to enhance their reputation.
>>
>> It's a long shot I know, but might be worth talking up.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 1:45?PM efc via extropolis
>> <extropolis at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Excellent idea Keith.
>> >
>> > Having a masters degree in philosophy, I'm a bit "damaged" so I always
>> > make it a point to try and have a discussion with my students about the
>> > ethics of technology and make them think about the world and future they
>> > want to help shape through their technical work in the future.
>> >
>> > I think this is a conversation that should start early, and that
>> > technologists should have often, but it is not enough.
>> >
>> > As long as you are dependent on a salary, and the ask seems relatively
>> > small and insignificant, it is all too easy to choose the path of least
>> > resistance and then justify it to yourself or just forget about it.
>> >
>> > Perhaps with some kind of organization helping out in some way, it might
>> > make that choice a little bit easier on individuals who feel that they
>> > have no other choice due to financial reasons.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Daniel
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, 14 Dec 2023, Keith Henson wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi Cindy, John
>> > >
>> > > My response to an article on slashdot about hackers that removed the
>> > > code that bricked trains.
>> > >
>> > > If there were social support, programmers could just refuse on ethical
>> > > grounds to write the code that bricks a train or anything else.
>> > >
>> > > Long ago when I was faced with something similar, I was just fired.
>> > > If there was an organization that made such behavior public in a way
>> > > that seriously hurt the reputation of a company, they might think
>> > > twice about such abuse.
>> > >
>> > > Would we have to start a new organization for programmers or is there
>> > > an existing one that could take on this function?  The EFF comes to
>> > > mind, but open to other suggestions.  I will ask the EFF if they would
>> > > consider this.
>> > >
>> > > Keith
>> > >
>> > > Keith
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206%40swisscows.email.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 22:36:47 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:36:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Status Game
Message-ID: <CACBESnAXmZxXt+_7oNkZr+04h0Km2OnmxcSFb+mfSg53Gwm3LA@mail.gmail.com>

So I have been reading Will Storr's book entitled "The Status Game"
and have come to realize from this that we MAY not have quite as much
to worry about AI as I had previously thought. As group oriented
primates, we crave status, and it has led, according to the cogent
argument of Storr, to many if not most of the "bad things" as well as
"good things" in human history. It matters a lot that your Status Game
is played in the right kind of system as to whether bad or good things
ultimately emerge. It's a fascinating read and I recommend it to you
all on its own merits.

That being said, if we do not program AIs' optimization functions to
attempt to achieve status, might we not be avoiding SOME of the more
important pitfalls that we primates are prone to?

-Kelly

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 22:41:08 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 22:41:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQZQ24HE30zhwvfZMpE9UVd6G-2zPEA7TjJ-OO1=QS_Xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKTCJycrRUyQoLzkxmTU56p-HWD9SZi-F3ZWujn=vUrza93iBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <13b387d76e08f88c9a5e334f72e481aa.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAEptUkQZQ24HE30zhwvfZMpE9UVd6G-2zPEA7TjJ-OO1=QS_Xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhL3q+WTcrgpEqeJQ1RmOmodaXW0wcYAgUZmGOof_NVpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 at 21:53, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Point of order: the Earth's orbit isn't even /remotely/ "delicate". The amount of energy it would take to meaningfully alter it is almost unimaginable.
> _______________________________________________


Well, I thought that the AI was just having a flight of poetic fancy,
but when asked, it gave an elaborate explanation ---
BillK

---------------------------
The phrase "planet's delicate orbit" refers to the path or trajectory
followed by a planet as it revolves around its star, such as the Earth
orbiting the Sun. The term "delicate" emphasizes the sensitivity and
intricacy of this orbital path.

The orbit of a planet is influenced by various factors, including the
gravitational forces exerted by its star and other celestial bodies.
These forces act upon the planet, shaping its trajectory and
determining its position in space at any given time.

The use of the word "delicate" in this context suggests that the
planet's orbit is finely balanced and susceptible to perturbations.
Even slight disturbances in its trajectory can have significant
consequences. This delicacy implies that the planet's orbit is a
remarkable and intricate dance between gravitational forces, allowing
it to maintain stability and follow a predictable path.

In the case of Earth, its delicate orbit plays a crucial role in
sustaining life as we know it. The planet's distance from the Sun,
combined with its orbital path and axial tilt, determines the
distribution of sunlight and the changing seasons. These factors
influence climate patterns, weather systems, and the overall
conditions necessary for supporting diverse ecosystems and the
survival of species.

By describing the planet's orbit as delicate, we acknowledge the
intricate balance that exists within the celestial mechanics of our
solar system. It reminds us of the intricate interplay between cosmic
forces and the fragile nature of our existence on this remarkable
planet.
-----------------------

From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 22:56:59 2023
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:56:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
References: <006c01da303e$cb5a2880$620e7980$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpFhsKbKRCbbSiN-7nB-sqsNvp3j9L0T9yierUf1d1CKAw@mail.gmail.com>

I just love this group!
 I like the post best: "if you don't like Merry Christmas just fuckoff _.
I laughed out loud I just laughed out loud and that long happy poetic was
just over the top

I am so pleased to continue my adventure with a seasonal changes, Go
reindeer!
Smile, ilsa



On Sat, Dec 16, 2023, 8:42?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> In our socially turbulent times, may I suggest an acceptably politically
> correct alternative to the traditional and offensive ?Merry Christmas.?
>
>
>
> Greetings fellow human-presenting life form!  Do have a most satisfactory
> experience during this arbitrarily festive period when our fragile planet?s
> orbit causes the northern hemisphere to reach the point of minimum solar
> exposure.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Dec 16 23:45:59 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:45:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?An_expert_explains_=E2=80=98mind_uploading?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUgtq2FMHt+9ULtMZx4jOpGYKG6JR=FFDJnrF9rDCQkVyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjMQM0DBsRZwnAEsy4kWPCeWBEWP6mwTUvBkwqaB2cjNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SuZMcQUFo1Fo_-GFDTZFGTz1DB98-uq9JE658_MeD=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUgtq2FMHt+9ULtMZx4jOpGYKG6JR=FFDJnrF9rDCQkVyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnBWyfxJPd8hBQUp+sptu0y=22jUxxYGFkZp0C6bbjJQ2g@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/weve-put-worms-mind-lego-robot-body-180953399/

very cool

On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 5:55?PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> We've already uploaded worm minds from their connectomes and put them into robot bodies.
>
> Jason
>
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2023, 7:21 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 3:01?PM BillK via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Could you move from your biological body to a computer?
>> > An expert explains ?mind uploading?.
>> >
>> > Published: December 4, 2023
>> > Author  Clas Weber
>> > Senior lecturer, The University of Western Australia
>> >
>> > <https://theconversation.com/could-you-move-from-your-biological-body-to-a-computer-an-expert-explains-mind-uploading-218035>
>> >
>> > Quotes:
>> > This is the concept behind mind uploading ? the idea that we may one
>> > day be able to transition a person from their biological body to a
>> > synthetic hardware. The idea originated in an intellectual movement
>> > called transhumanism and has several key advocates including computer
>> > scientist Ray Kurzweil, philosopher Nick Bostrom and neuroscientist
>> > Randal Koene.
>> >
>> > The feasibility of mind uploading rests on three core assumptions.
>> >
>> > First is the technology assumption ? the idea that we will be able to
>> > develop mind uploading technology within the coming decades.
>> > Second is the artificial mind assumption ? the idea that a simulated
>> > brain would give rise to a real mind
>> > and third is the survival assumption ? the idea that the person
>> > created in the process is really ?you?.
>> > Only then does mind uploading become a way for you to live on.
>> >
>> > How plausible is each of these?
>>
>> They are very complex, but there is nothing I know about that would
>> make it impossible.
>>
>> But for marketing reasons, you want it to be bidirectional.  You spend
>> a weekend in the uploaded state and go back to a meat body on Monday
>> (with continuity of memory from the time in the uploaded state).  This
>> is technically no harder than one way.
>>
>> I think uploaded people may keep their physical bodies stored for a
>> very long time.  Sentimental.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> > --------------------
>> >
>> > BillK
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 00:15:05 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:15:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The Status Game
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnAXmZxXt+_7oNkZr+04h0Km2OnmxcSFb+mfSg53Gwm3LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnAXmZxXt+_7oNkZr+04h0Km2OnmxcSFb+mfSg53Gwm3LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB76OWyCWCxVwFii26_2TB4JXRiyMe-FVGHL1u8ksnLYcA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 2:37?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> So I have been reading Will Storr's book entitled "The Status Game"

I wonder if he goes into the evolutionary reasons we seek status?

It's fairly obvious, high-status males are much more likely to
reproduce.  High-status females probably don't have any more children,
but those children are more likely to survive.

> and have come to realize from this that we MAY not have quite as much
> to worry about AI as I had previously thought. As group oriented
> primates, we crave status, and it has led, according to the cogent
> argument of Storr, to many if not most of the "bad things" as well as
> "good things" in human history. It matters a lot that your Status Game
> is played in the right kind of system as to whether bad or good things
> ultimately emerge. It's a fascinating read and I recommend it to you
> all on its own merits.
>
> That being said, if we do not program AIs' optimization functions to
> attempt to achieve status, might we not be avoiding SOME of the more
> important pitfalls that we primates are prone to?

I wrote about this in 2007.

"The clinic [an AI] had other carefully selected human personality
characteristics such as seeking the good opinion of its peers (humans
and others of its kind alike).  It also had a few unhuman limits."

Keith

(Yeah, I know, I was picking low-hanging fruit.)




> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 00:40:38 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:40:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Could the Universe Be Finite?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDcE7uSnR5xtRi8k4_NngWEGgUUaOkMJOJM0E0+Rwssjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFa3NLV-9ji=YCQtAEV4ss2_pQwL+6ptf9_M+CrSMJRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjcuXt6XRuHXcc3V-Mr9+9rg2g=BmH_8T+7Fk6NsissOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7H-GSo9g_htRSJRtKXHc63Q8RLn+ZNs0hGmLYCzniirw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUgNUN5QxXRSHtR547=dj8ern3dAo2xzzpekQwLFZuiF1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7Cyw2r4Fie8nn3D=RYkNEn1tGL3k4c6wTLzu=pyxV6ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnDcE7uSnR5xtRi8k4_NngWEGgUUaOkMJOJM0E0+Rwssjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5S7zRLmw7SrssAjgys53WwsWF7kytLABhyF6b8pzATWA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 2:24?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Why would the simulation have the data center inside of it?

Other way around.  Their simulation would be running in the data center

Oh, you mean we are a simulation and what we see at Tabby's star is
inside our simulation.  Gack.  I have no idea about how they organize
this data center, but if we figure they are individuals and are using
100 W per, then there is room for 210 000 000 000 000 000 of them.
That's about 26 million times the human population.


 I prefer
> my creator to be outside this universe... by creator I mean the pimply
> faced teenager that spawned the simulation in which we now find
> ourselves.
>
> -Kelly
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 12:55?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > If what we are seeing at Tabby's Star is alien data centers 400 times
> > the area of the Earth, then chances are we will not live in the base
> > reality.  It's really weird.  The physical constraints on these things
> > include orbital mechanics, energy/thermal balance and I think most
> > importantly the size of the structures is limited by the speed of
> > light.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 00:45:57 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 19:45:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] New project for EFF (maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBRuQdXky2-==50Yvx-U7D=36DSxCkoNU3bbuNZsLErdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5EWgMn9cQa34Jn0Nqqou3QBodiZmrfCNki6EqqYf-TGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <55abcfa6-0711-e924-566d-34a42af5d206@swisscows.email>
 <CAPiwVB7O5EnyMAa2h6nEPSm=rd0x7NHot1Z-g9-TqB7daKrAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSj7JYfH5UVXDwR6fi9vp54P5AhuMEuWo85DwMmO-3+gA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnBRuQdXky2-==50Yvx-U7D=36DSxCkoNU3bbuNZsLErdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKhnAsBpebR9tswy8Mr7zUc1nTBGUi9DsCMREFjPkzYnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023, 5:32 PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> When I worked at a large company with a smaller acquired software
> division, I was encouraged to discontinue writing test driven code
> because it "worked too well" and that charging for customer service to
> keep their crappy code up and working was half of their revenue. In
> the end, my supervisor removed all of my tests and merged all my code
> into one untestable blob over a weekend. I was rather livid because I
> was proud of the fact that I was creating relatively bug free code. I
> didn't work there terribly long after that.
>
> -Kelly
>

I imagined a certification authority like lawyers and doctors have.  Sure,
you can practice full stack development without a cert, but you wouldn't
command the highest salary without it.  In your example above, you would
(should?) report that company for software mismanagement.  If govt.
contract can only go to ISO certified companies, we the devs would refuse
to work for unacceptably low CMM or similar metrics companies.

The morality influence would only be a feature after sufficient established
trust between the employers, the employees, and the accreditation agency.

Much of this has already been solved as in blockchain technology,  but we
have yet to implement similar decentralized trust in human behavior
models.  Maybe the AI revolution will make this discussion moot and any
efforts in this direction are too little too late.

>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 06:15:21 2023
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 22:15:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
Message-ID: <25A647E1-31BE-4B22-BD16-4C4078F36735@gmail.com>

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 06:17:06 2023
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 22:17:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
Message-ID: <D5D966AE-6832-4EB7-955B-636167DBD24B@gmail.com>

?Why not ?Io Saturnalia!? This was the Roman holiday. (I?m not saying the Jesus Lovers stole it from the Romans, but the Roman festival and holiday preceded the later one. I believe the first Christmas wasn?t celebrated until centuries after the supposed death of Jesus.)

Regards,

Dan 

> On Dec 16, 2023, at 2:20 PM, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?I prefer the traditional understated... "Happy Ramahanakwanzmas"
> 
> -Kelly


From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 06:54:39 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 07:54:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] VIDEO: Terasem Colloquium, December 14,
 2023. AI and machine consciousness
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyenz2dUm1W5rvkPLuFFpDT_j=7inbFxri5bVTv3Wp96uw@mail.gmail.com>

VIDEO: Terasem Colloquium, December 14, 2023. Artificial Intelligence
(AI) and machine consciousness. Speakers: Ben Goertzel, Stefano Vaj,
Mika Johnson, Blake Lemoine, Bill Bainbridge, Vitaly Vanchurin.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/videoterasem-colloquium-december

From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 07:03:41 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:03:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pc alternative
In-Reply-To: <25A647E1-31BE-4B22-BD16-4C4078F36735@gmail.com>
References: <25A647E1-31BE-4B22-BD16-4C4078F36735@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc8u9SR3+fiZV8hLa-1CSaEyYLwg7if_MD=_pgX_xnKmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:17?AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?
> On Dec 16, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On 2023. Dec 16., Sat at 18:59, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 9:49 AM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 2023. Dec 16., Sat at 17:43, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> In our socially turbulent times, may I suggest an acceptably politically correct alternative to the traditional and offensive ?Merry Christmas.?
>>
>>
>> I like the traditional and beautiful ?Merry Christmas.? Those who find it ?offensive? can fuck off.
>>
>>
>> In my experience, the people who want _everyone_ to use ?Merry Christmas? get offended when someone says ?Happy Holidays? or ?Seasons Greetings.? In fact, a few years ago, I ran into a woman who got really angry when I said ?Happy Holidays? to her. I was amazed because this was in Seattle and, though I wasn?t a close friend of hers, I didn?t realize just how upset she might get.
>
>
> I don?t get offended. Feel free to say ?Happy Holidays? or whatever it is that you like to say. But I?ll continue to say ?Merry Christmas.? And to those who feel ?offended,? well, I said already what I had to say.
>
>
> Again, who?s offended? The only people I see whining about this and being offended are Christians, specifically conservative nationalist ones who feel there?s a ?war on Christmas.?
>
> Also, do you feel it?s in the spirit of Christmas to tell people to ?fuck off?? Seems a little off to me.
>
> Happy holidays!

Merry Christmas! :-) :-)

>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 14:46:16 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:46:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Just a simple question
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>

How can there be an expert in mind-uploading?  bill w
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 15:06:23 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 10:06:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Just a simple question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKK3gEc_SzD-ELkXdMjxqi6bbMeB0xmU-5bCspTSP10Qw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 9:48 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> How can there be an expert in mind-uploading?  bill w
>

What part are you asking about?

I imagine you can define the words then assemble their related contexts in
a meaningful whole concept emergent from the juxtaposition of ideas.

If you a taking the piss over the fact that "mind uploading" has not been
accomplished (to any degree that you would concede) then there can be no
"expert" in the particulars, I would propose you apply the same to other
fields also: there can be no experts in fusion technologies, no experts in
cancer mitigation/cures, hell even no experts in keeping ants out of
kitchen.

>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 15:39:46 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 07:39:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Just a simple question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4dn7HPRZC12TxSwbFAuUc9bt6k3VMbXKXwXgQJ4AjbmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 6:46?AM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How can there be an expert in mind-uploading?  bill w

That's a lame question.  There are no experts in something that has
not yet been done.  We can from first principles describe what it will
take.  I did this back in 2007.

"This time the nanomachines didn't infiltrate her brain just to shut
it down, though they did that and reversed the mild damage from shock
and low blood flow.   The nanomachines mapped out all her neural
circuits and cell connections.  Shortly before her parents entered the
clinic the next day they tentatively restored consciousness, partly in
her brain--which was far below the temperature needed to run on its
own--and partly in the haze of nanomachines that were also simulating
input in place of her eyes and ears."

> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAO%2BxQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw%40mail.gmail.com.


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 16:50:12 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 08:50:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Just a simple question
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKK3gEc_SzD-ELkXdMjxqi6bbMeB0xmU-5bCspTSP10Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKK3gEc_SzD-ELkXdMjxqi6bbMeB0xmU-5bCspTSP10Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSMbTqhumW+C6=bDdhbhC2m8+h_qiqMht6PXPuiwG-G9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 7:07 AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If you a taking the piss over the fact that "mind uploading" has not been
> accomplished (to any degree that you would concede) then there can be no
> "expert" in the particulars, I would propose you apply the same to other
> fields also: there can be no experts in fusion technologies, no experts in
> cancer mitigation/cures, hell even no experts in keeping ants out of
> kitchen.
>

To be fair: fusion has been accomplished (just not commercially viable
yet), there are ways to mitigate cancer in at least some cases, and ants
are kept out of many kitchens.

>
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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Sun Dec 17 20:59:32 2023
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 12:59:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Just a simple question
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKK3gEc_SzD-ELkXdMjxqi6bbMeB0xmU-5bCspTSP10Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKK3gEc_SzD-ELkXdMjxqi6bbMeB0xmU-5bCspTSP10Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpGQVnXW2X39SBVAR6dr52nroWAVgj0Q2+Y-Rv-KXGaoPA@mail.gmail.com>

My grandmother used a line of freshly ground black pepper to keep the ants
out of the house toothpaste at all of the little ant holes and black
pepper!

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 7:07?AM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 9:48 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> How can there be an expert in mind-uploading?  bill w
>>
>
> What part are you asking about?
>
> I imagine you can define the words then assemble their related contexts in
> a meaningful whole concept emergent from the juxtaposition of ideas.
>
> If you a taking the piss over the fact that "mind uploading" has not been
> accomplished (to any degree that you would concede) then there can be no
> "expert" in the particulars, I would propose you apply the same to other
> fields also: there can be no experts in fusion technologies, no experts in
> cancer mitigation/cures, hell even no experts in keeping ants out of
> kitchen.
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 18 03:49:57 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 22:49:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Just a simple question
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSMbTqhumW+C6=bDdhbhC2m8+h_qiqMht6PXPuiwG-G9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKK3gEc_SzD-ELkXdMjxqi6bbMeB0xmU-5bCspTSP10Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSMbTqhumW+C6=bDdhbhC2m8+h_qiqMht6PXPuiwG-G9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJfkV6=KYh-cFc3Aq9KuLUv1_S9yfUfzSx6Ze6-Ek7=Xw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 11:52 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> To be fair: fusion has been accomplished (just not commercially viable
> yet), there are ways to mitigate cancer in at least some cases, and ants
> are kept out of many kitchens.
>

"To be fair"

So the fusion that has been accomplished makes which person the expert? The
one who planned the device? The one who machined it to five-nines
precision? The project manager who coordinated everyone else? Surely the
one signing the check is the expert.  Oh, I'm being facetious.  Of course I
am.

Maybe our definition of "expert" differ between "someone who has done a
thing" and "someone who knows how a thing is done."  Was Neil Armstrong the
only expert to walk on the moon before Aldrin also did the thing?  I am of
a mind to grant many other NASA folk the title of 'expert' on lunar landing
despite the fact they have never done so.  There must be a few people who
were on duty at mission control for more than one lunar landing project
implementation - would that make them double-expert compared to Armstrong
or Aldrin?  I know, the geniuses on this list will tell me how wrong I am
because the type (you know there's a type) are so smart they don't need to
listen.  I profess to be neither smart nor correct.

 My point was not to claim there are no experts in the endeavor to keep
ants out of the kitchen.  That was an absurd rhetorical device.  It might
have made a reader laugh if he or she were familiar with the pattern of
casual conversation.  I sometimes marvel at the voluminous prose expounded
on this list, but it's rarely in a voice that I prefer to consume.  It may
be the same with what and how I write. Hmm.

Anyway, i guess we can have no experts in mind uploading until someone has
been uploaded and their post-biological identity demands legal protection
of selfhood with respect to autonomy and reasonable safety from the
computing hardware being switched off.  Uploaded mice running robot bodies
through mazes they trained on as mere flesh... not good enough to call the
any of those scientists "expert"

Is there any other field that we might agree has "experts" in a domain of
knowledge despite themselves having not achieved the ultimate example of
their profession/craft/art/etc?

Ex: any pianist who flawlessy performs every note of the Minute Waltz in
under sixty seconds can claim the "expert" title.  The one who knows how to
shave three seconds from their personal best of 1m2s is just a
wannabe/poseur.

PS. I know the Minute Waltz isn't intended to be played in 60 seconds.
Hyperbole is usually meant to amuse. :)

>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 18 14:43:59 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 08:43:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Just a simple question
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJfkV6=KYh-cFc3Aq9KuLUv1_S9yfUfzSx6Ze6-Ek7=Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKK3gEc_SzD-ELkXdMjxqi6bbMeB0xmU-5bCspTSP10Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSMbTqhumW+C6=bDdhbhC2m8+h_qiqMht6PXPuiwG-G9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbJfkV6=KYh-cFc3Aq9KuLUv1_S9yfUfzSx6Ze6-Ek7=Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYUVpm5sA6wny1pwemiAr25bKg4ywDS0q2iVkDoSLF_mg@mail.gmail.com>

There was a violinist named Eugene Fodor.  His technique was astounding.
He could play anything at any speed you wanted.  But he had no soul.  He
played Paganini's works at his concerts because they were difficult and
impressive.  He was just mechanical.

He could play anything but not anything well.  He got addicted to cocaine
and eventually suicided.  He knew what he was, and what he wasn't.
Expert?  No one would have claimed that he was a great violinist.  I asked
a world class violinist if what he lacked could be taught.  She said, in
essence, no way.  You have a soul for music or you don't.    bill w

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 9:52?PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 11:52 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> To be fair: fusion has been accomplished (just not commercially viable
>> yet), there are ways to mitigate cancer in at least some cases, and ants
>> are kept out of many kitchens.
>>
>
> "To be fair"
>
> So the fusion that has been accomplished makes which person the expert?
> The one who planned the device? The one who machined it to five-nines
> precision? The project manager who coordinated everyone else? Surely the
> one signing the check is the expert.  Oh, I'm being facetious.  Of course I
> am.
>
> Maybe our definition of "expert" differ between "someone who has done a
> thing" and "someone who knows how a thing is done."  Was Neil Armstrong the
> only expert to walk on the moon before Aldrin also did the thing?  I am of
> a mind to grant many other NASA folk the title of 'expert' on lunar landing
> despite the fact they have never done so.  There must be a few people who
> were on duty at mission control for more than one lunar landing project
> implementation - would that make them double-expert compared to Armstrong
> or Aldrin?  I know, the geniuses on this list will tell me how wrong I am
> because the type (you know there's a type) are so smart they don't need to
> listen.  I profess to be neither smart nor correct.
>
>  My point was not to claim there are no experts in the endeavor to keep
> ants out of the kitchen.  That was an absurd rhetorical device.  It might
> have made a reader laugh if he or she were familiar with the pattern of
> casual conversation.  I sometimes marvel at the voluminous prose expounded
> on this list, but it's rarely in a voice that I prefer to consume.  It may
> be the same with what and how I write. Hmm.
>
> Anyway, i guess we can have no experts in mind uploading until someone has
> been uploaded and their post-biological identity demands legal protection
> of selfhood with respect to autonomy and reasonable safety from the
> computing hardware being switched off.  Uploaded mice running robot bodies
> through mazes they trained on as mere flesh... not good enough to call the
> any of those scientists "expert"
>
> Is there any other field that we might agree has "experts" in a domain of
> knowledge despite themselves having not achieved the ultimate example of
> their profession/craft/art/etc?
>
> Ex: any pianist who flawlessy performs every note of the Minute Waltz in
> under sixty seconds can claim the "expert" title.  The one who knows how to
> shave three seconds from their personal best of 1m2s is just a
> wannabe/poseur.
>
> PS. I know the Minute Waltz isn't intended to be played in 60 seconds.
> Hyperbole is usually meant to amuse. :)
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Tue Dec 19 14:49:03 2023
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:49:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Just a simple question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYUVpm5sA6wny1pwemiAr25bKg4ywDS0q2iVkDoSLF_mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKK3gEc_SzD-ELkXdMjxqi6bbMeB0xmU-5bCspTSP10Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSMbTqhumW+C6=bDdhbhC2m8+h_qiqMht6PXPuiwG-G9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbJfkV6=KYh-cFc3Aq9KuLUv1_S9yfUfzSx6Ze6-Ek7=Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYUVpm5sA6wny1pwemiAr25bKg4ywDS0q2iVkDoSLF_mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkReuspmswKf8sRqbdm0Aer07SCPCtJ2QDu15_pTjt+KYA@mail.gmail.com>

There's a combination of concepts I wasn't expecting to encounter this
morning: the capacity, not /merely/ to perform human uploads at all, but to
perform them with verve, gusto, and soul.

On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 7:46?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> There was a violinist named Eugene Fodor.  His technique was astounding.
> He could play anything at any speed you wanted.  But he had no soul.  He
> played Paganini's works at his concerts because they were difficult and
> impressive.  He was just mechanical.
>
> He could play anything but not anything well.  He got addicted to cocaine
> and eventually suicided.  He knew what he was, and what he wasn't.
> Expert?  No one would have claimed that he was a great violinist.  I asked
> a world class violinist if what he lacked could be taught.  She said, in
> essence, no way.  You have a soul for music or you don't.    bill w
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 9:52?PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 11:52 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> To be fair: fusion has been accomplished (just not commercially viable
>>> yet), there are ways to mitigate cancer in at least some cases, and ants
>>> are kept out of many kitchens.
>>>
>>
>> "To be fair"
>>
>> So the fusion that has been accomplished makes which person the expert?
>> The one who planned the device? The one who machined it to five-nines
>> precision? The project manager who coordinated everyone else? Surely the
>> one signing the check is the expert.  Oh, I'm being facetious.  Of course I
>> am.
>>
>> Maybe our definition of "expert" differ between "someone who has done a
>> thing" and "someone who knows how a thing is done."  Was Neil Armstrong the
>> only expert to walk on the moon before Aldrin also did the thing?  I am of
>> a mind to grant many other NASA folk the title of 'expert' on lunar landing
>> despite the fact they have never done so.  There must be a few people who
>> were on duty at mission control for more than one lunar landing project
>> implementation - would that make them double-expert compared to Armstrong
>> or Aldrin?  I know, the geniuses on this list will tell me how wrong I am
>> because the type (you know there's a type) are so smart they don't need to
>> listen.  I profess to be neither smart nor correct.
>>
>>  My point was not to claim there are no experts in the endeavor to keep
>> ants out of the kitchen.  That was an absurd rhetorical device.  It might
>> have made a reader laugh if he or she were familiar with the pattern of
>> casual conversation.  I sometimes marvel at the voluminous prose expounded
>> on this list, but it's rarely in a voice that I prefer to consume.  It may
>> be the same with what and how I write. Hmm.
>>
>> Anyway, i guess we can have no experts in mind uploading until someone
>> has been uploaded and their post-biological identity demands legal
>> protection of selfhood with respect to autonomy and reasonable safety from
>> the computing hardware being switched off.  Uploaded mice running robot
>> bodies through mazes they trained on as mere flesh... not good enough to
>> call the any of those scientists "expert"
>>
>> Is there any other field that we might agree has "experts" in a domain of
>> knowledge despite themselves having not achieved the ultimate example of
>> their profession/craft/art/etc?
>>
>> Ex: any pianist who flawlessy performs every note of the Minute Waltz in
>> under sixty seconds can claim the "expert" title.  The one who knows how to
>> shave three seconds from their personal best of 1m2s is just a
>> wannabe/poseur.
>>
>> PS. I know the Minute Waltz isn't intended to be played in 60 seconds.
>> Hyperbole is usually meant to amuse. :)
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Dec 21 00:53:44 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 00:53:44 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
Message-ID: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>

Could smart speakers protect women against intimate partner violence?
by Monash University   December 18, 2023

<https://phys.org/news/2023-12-smart-speakers-women-intimate-partner.html>
Quotes:
New research from Monash University examines the practical, ethical
and political challenges of using smart home technologies to protect
women from intimate partner violence in their own homes.

One in four Australian houses has at least one "smart speaker." This
powerful "always on" surveillance technology offers an unprecedented
opportunity to detect and predict events that take place in the home.
Patents lodged by Google, and research carried out overseas, suggest
that smart speakers could detect screams, shouting and other audio
signals associated with intimate partner violence.
------------------

Surely people will just get rid of these devices once it becomes known
that they are police / morality spies?

BillK

From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Dec 21 11:43:37 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 12:43:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>

No, I doubt it. It's been known for a long time that police can go in and 
get recordings and I haven't heard or read about anyone who objects. That 
is very scary according to me. =/

Best regards,
Daniel


On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> Could smart speakers protect women against intimate partner violence?
> by Monash University   December 18, 2023
>
> <https://phys.org/news/2023-12-smart-speakers-women-intimate-partner.html>
> Quotes:
> New research from Monash University examines the practical, ethical
> and political challenges of using smart home technologies to protect
> women from intimate partner violence in their own homes.
>
> One in four Australian houses has at least one "smart speaker." This
> powerful "always on" surveillance technology offers an unprecedented
> opportunity to detect and predict events that take place in the home.
> Patents lodged by Google, and research carried out overseas, suggest
> that smart speakers could detect screams, shouting and other audio
> signals associated with intimate partner violence.
> ------------------
>
> Surely people will just get rid of these devices once it becomes known
> that they are police / morality spies?
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Dec 21 12:42:12 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 07:42:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

I don't understand it either.  There are reasons my computer does not have
a working camera looking at me, nor a working microphone listening to me.

When all these "smart" devices first came out I thought they were
wonderfully clever, but didn't have money to install/makeover my home to
be "smart.  It only took a short while for me to notice the invisible
listeners & watchers.... So in my home there is no Alexa, no Siri, and my
car has no such things either.

Of course there are downsides to living "dumb". I'm willing to take that
risk.

Regards,
MB

On Thu, December 21, 2023 06:43, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
> No, I doubt it. It's been known for a long time that police can go in and
> get recordings and I haven't heard or read about anyone who objects. That
> is very scary according to me. =/
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>> Could smart speakers protect women against intimate partner violence?
>> by Monash University   December 18, 2023
>>
>> <https://phys.org/news/2023-12-smart-speakers-women-intimate-partner.html>
>> Quotes:
>> New research from Monash University examines the practical, ethical
>> and political challenges of using smart home technologies to protect
>> women from intimate partner violence in their own homes.
>>
>> One in four Australian houses has at least one "smart speaker." This
>> powerful "always on" surveillance technology offers an unprecedented
>> opportunity to detect and predict events that take place in the home.
>> Patents lodged by Google, and research carried out overseas, suggest
>> that smart speakers could detect screams, shouting and other audio
>> signals associated with intimate partner violence.
>> ------------------
>>
>> Surely people will just get rid of these devices once it becomes known
>> that they are police / morality spies?
>>
>> BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Dec 21 15:06:08 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 07:06:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>

MB do you have a phone?  It is listening to your conversation even when you
aren't using it apparently.

Reason: I was on vacation on a road trip in Washington.  At a gas stop, I
commented discussed wind turbines on the Columbia River with my sone and
mentioned to my bride that the zipper was broken on my hoodie.  When I got
to camp that night, my ad banners were filled with advertisements of hoodies
and... wind turbine parts.

The hoodie business might have been a coincidence.  But that is the only
time ever I have received advertisements for wind turbine parts.  

I am open to alternative explanations for those ads.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of MB
via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, 21 December, 2023 4:42 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence

I don't understand it either.  There are reasons my computer does not have a
working camera looking at me, nor a working microphone listening to me.

When all these "smart" devices first came out I thought they were
wonderfully clever, but didn't have money to install/makeover my home to be
"smart.  It only took a short while for me to notice the invisible listeners
& watchers.... So in my home there is no Alexa, no Siri, and my car has no
such things either.

Of course there are downsides to living "dumb". I'm willing to take that
risk.

Regards,
MB

On Thu, December 21, 2023 06:43, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
> No, I doubt it. It's been known for a long time that police can go in 
> and get recordings and I haven't heard or read about anyone who 
> objects. That is very scary according to me. =/
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>> Could smart speakers protect women against intimate partner violence?
>> by Monash University   December 18, 2023
>>
>> <https://phys.org/news/2023-12-smart-speakers-women-intimate-partner.
>> html>
>> Quotes:
>> New research from Monash University examines the practical, ethical 
>> and political challenges of using smart home technologies to protect 
>> women from intimate partner violence in their own homes.
>>
>> One in four Australian houses has at least one "smart speaker." This 
>> powerful "always on" surveillance technology offers an unprecedented 
>> opportunity to detect and predict events that take place in the home.
>> Patents lodged by Google, and research carried out overseas, suggest 
>> that smart speakers could detect screams, shouting and other audio 
>> signals associated with intimate partner violence.
>> ------------------
>>
>> Surely people will just get rid of these devices once it becomes 
>> known that they are police / morality spies?
>>
>> BillK
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Dec 21 16:17:08 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 16:17:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 at 15:09, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> MB do you have a phone?  It is listening to your conversation even when you
> aren't using it apparently.
>
> Reason: I was on vacation on a road trip in Washington.  At a gas stop, I
> commented discussed wind turbines on the Columbia River with my sone and
> mentioned to my bride that the zipper was broken on my hoodie.  When I got
> to camp that night, my ad banners were filled with advertisements of hoodies
> and... wind turbine parts.
>
> The hoodie business might have been a coincidence.  But that is the only
> time ever I have received advertisements for wind turbine parts.
>
> I am open to alternative explanations for those ads.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Hi Spike

I have just chatted to a few AIs and they all say that it is very
unlikely that smartphones are continually recording speech while they
are not in use.
This would drain the battery very quickly. It would also expose
companies to being sued or, in Europe, being banned under GDPR privacy
laws.

On the other hand, you might be surprised at how invasive Ad tracking
is. It is *really* complicated. So complicated that it is almost
impossible for users to know what is actually going on.
They probably know more about you than your bride does.  :)
The Ads probably knew you were on a holiday camping trip (hoodies) and
your location was near wind turbines. Maybe someone else in your party
searched for wind turbines on their device, so you all got turbine ads
while near there.
You need to check every app on all devices to see what permissions are allowed.

I have included some AI comments below.

BillK

------------------------
1. Ad Targeting Techniques: Targeted ads on smartphones are typically
based on various data points and techniques, including:

   - User Profile: Advertisers collect information about users through
cookies, device identifiers, and other tracking mechanisms. This data
includes browsing history, search queries, app usage, location data,
demographics, and more. Advertisers analyze this information to create
user profiles and deliver personalized ads.

   - Contextual Targeting: Ads can be targeted based on the context of
the content being viewed. For example, if you're reading an article
about travel, you may see ads related to hotels or airlines.

   - Lookalike Audiences: Advertisers can build profiles of users who
have similar characteristics to their desired audience. By targeting
these "lookalike" audiences, they can reach users who may have similar
interests and behaviors to their existing customers.

   - Behavioral Targeting: Advertisers track user behavior over time
to understand their preferences and interests. This may involve
analyzing click patterns, app usage, interactions with ads, and other
online activities.

2. Ad Networks and Data Brokers: Advertisers often rely on ad networks
and data brokers to facilitate targeted advertising. These entities
aggregate and analyze data from various sources to create
comprehensive user profiles. Advertisers can then utilize these
profiles to deliver more relevant ads.

3. Permission-based Data Collection: To serve targeted ads
effectively, some apps may request permission to access certain data
on your smartphone, such as location, contacts, or browsing history.
It's important to review these permissions and consider the trade-off
between personalized ads and privacy.

4. Cross-Device Tracking: Advertisers use techniques to track user
activity across multiple devices, enabling them to create a more
holistic understanding of user behavior. This allows for targeted ads
to be delivered across smartphones, tablets, computers, and other
connected devices.

5. Privacy Settings and Controls: Smartphone operating systems provide
privacy settings that allow users to manage ad tracking and limit
personalized advertising. These settings often include options to
reset advertising identifiers, opt out of personalized ads, or
restrict ad tracking across apps.

6. Ad-blocking and Privacy-focused Apps: Users who are particularly
concerned about targeted ads can also utilize ad-blocking software or
privacy-focused apps that aim to limit data collection and tracking.
---------------------

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Dec 21 19:07:42 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 11:07:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004901da3440$fa27e200$ee77a600$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, 21 December, 2023 8:17 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 at 15:09, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ...
> The hoodie business might have been a coincidence.  But that is the 
> only time ever I have received advertisements for wind turbine parts.
>
> I am open to alternative explanations for those ads.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>...Hi Spike

I have just chatted to a few AIs and they all say that it is very unlikely
that smartphones are continually recording speech ...

I have included some AI comments below.

BillK

------------------------
...


Well ja, but AI is in on it!  It's a coverup!  They are part of it, I tells
ya!

Thx BillK, it occurred to me that the wind turbine ads could be targeted by
location.  Since I bought gas, the ad industry would know my location and
would realize I was in wind turbine country (along the Columbia Gorge.)

If one likes wind power, oh boy, I can suggest a vacation spot for you.  The
Columbia Gorge is perfectly suited to that.  The wind howls thru there
constantly.  The environmentalists hate those things with a burning passion,
but every prime mover is associated with some form of environmental
destruction, even relatively clean ones such as nuclear fission.  They all
have their environmental cost.  Wind power located in places where the wind
is steady and reliable is a good bargain in my opinion.

I can repeat the experiment, since I intend to go up thru the gorge on
another camping trip in March.  This time I will not say a word or might
even turn off my phone, see if I get any turbine ads.

spike


From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Dec 21 19:18:26 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 20:18:26 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <13ab8a38-76e5-a996-c649-9e5e08592220@swisscows.email>

Hello MB,

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, MB via extropy-chat wrote:

> When all these "smart" devices first came out I thought they were
> wonderfully clever, but didn't have money to install/makeover my home to
> be "smart.  It only took a short while for me to notice the invisible

You can build your own smart home so that you are in control. Granted,
it does take either knowledge and interest, or paying someone with the
knowledge, but if you're into that, that's an option.

> Of course there are downsides to living "dumb". I'm willing to take that
> risk.

Out of pure curiousity, what are the downsides? I don't have a smart
phone and I never saw the need for a smart home. But, I do live in
either a 78 m^2 apartment or a 105 m^2 so I guess if I would live in a
house perhaps there would be some use cases although I haven't been able
to come up with "must haves" myself.

Best regards, 
Daniel


>
> Regards,
> MB
>
> On Thu, December 21, 2023 06:43, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
>> No, I doubt it. It's been known for a long time that police can go in and
>> get recordings and I haven't heard or read about anyone who objects. That
>> is very scary according to me. =/
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>>> Could smart speakers protect women against intimate partner violence?
>>> by Monash University   December 18, 2023
>>>
>>> <https://phys.org/news/2023-12-smart-speakers-women-intimate-partner.html>
>>> Quotes:
>>> New research from Monash University examines the practical, ethical
>>> and political challenges of using smart home technologies to protect
>>> women from intimate partner violence in their own homes.
>>>
>>> One in four Australian houses has at least one "smart speaker." This
>>> powerful "always on" surveillance technology offers an unprecedented
>>> opportunity to detect and predict events that take place in the home.
>>> Patents lodged by Google, and research carried out overseas, suggest
>>> that smart speakers could detect screams, shouting and other audio
>>> signals associated with intimate partner violence.
>>> ------------------
>>>
>>> Surely people will just get rid of these devices once it becomes known
>>> that they are police / morality spies?
>>>
>>> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Dec 21 19:23:36 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 20:23:36 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6ead8960-c034-eaf8-abcf-a24195ebdff4@swisscows.email>

Hello Bill,

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> I have just chatted to a few AIs and they all say that it is very
> unlikely that smartphones are continually recording speech while they
> are not in use.

And also extremely dangerous. If a phone would continually record speech
I imagine that it would be fairly simple for someone knowledgeable to
find that out, and imagine the world of pain for the phone manufacturers
if it turned out that their phones recorded without your permission.

I am certain that there are many apps that record stuff if you are not
careful but I think (not having a smartphone myself) that you have to
give permission for them to listen and record.

But the phone itself, without your permission, sounds very dangerous,
especially for a US company.

Best regards, 
Daniel



From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Dec 21 20:58:54 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 20:58:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <004901da3440$fa27e200$ee77a600$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901da3440$fa27e200$ee77a600$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgu8B=jxxBPgvHf1sJOO0OiAOCBbyLgTiuote4BGP0AqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 at 19:07, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> I can repeat the experiment, since I intend to go up thru the gorge on
> another camping trip in March.  This time I will not say a word or might
> even turn off my phone, see if I get any turbine ads.
>
> spike
>-----------------------------------


When your phone is on, it is probably using GPS and location services,
so the incoming missile can be precisely targeted.  :)

When your phone is switched off, the network can still trace it using
Cell Tower Triangulation.  Smartphones communicate with the nearest
cell tower even when they aren't making calls. This gives a rough idea
of the device's location. The strength of the device's signal, whether
it is stronger or weaker, gives the network provider even more
information about how far away the cell phone is from a tower. When
the signal from multiple towers is combined, it's possible to narrow
down the location even further.

To disappear from the system, you need to hide the phone in a Faraday pouch.
(Of course, this is very suspicious behaviour).  ;)

BillK

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Dec 21 23:28:18 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 23:28:18 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgu8B=jxxBPgvHf1sJOO0OiAOCBbyLgTiuote4BGP0AqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901da3440$fa27e200$ee77a600$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgu8B=jxxBPgvHf1sJOO0OiAOCBbyLgTiuote4BGP0AqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjMYR9ghCQgrA1ch3Q3W+hU-2GR6Cke=g4rGNgfd8b9uw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 at 20:58, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> To disappear from the system, you need to hide the phone in a Faraday pouch.
> (Of course, this is very suspicious behaviour).  ;)
>-----------------------------

Really, people need to realise that our rulers cannot resist the
temptation to track everyone, everywhere, all the time.

The article I quoted a few weeks ago covered this.
<https://slate.com/technology/2023/12/ai-mass-spying-internet-surveillance.html>
The Internet Enabled Mass Surveillance. A.I. Will Enable Mass Spying.
---------------

BillK

From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Dec 21 23:41:22 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 00:41:22 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjMYR9ghCQgrA1ch3Q3W+hU-2GR6Cke=g4rGNgfd8b9uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901da3440$fa27e200$ee77a600$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgu8B=jxxBPgvHf1sJOO0OiAOCBbyLgTiuote4BGP0AqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjMYR9ghCQgrA1ch3Q3W+hU-2GR6Cke=g4rGNgfd8b9uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d0e95782-14fd-9cb9-c429-0f43042f9034@swisscows.email>



On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

>>
> <snip>
>>
>> To disappear from the system, you need to hide the phone in a Faraday pouch.
>> (Of course, this is very suspicious behaviour).  ;)
>> -----------------------------
>
> Really, people need to realise that our rulers cannot resist the
> temptation to track everyone, everywhere, all the time.
>
> The article I quoted a few weeks ago covered this.
> <https://slate.com/technology/2023/12/ai-mass-spying-internet-surveillance.html>
> The Internet Enabled Mass Surveillance. A.I. Will Enable Mass Spying.

Well, a small mitigating factor is that humans are still necessary to
enforce the laws and drag the people into prisons.

It's not a big comfort, but at least better than nothing. ;)

So attempting to draw this to the extreme, imagine that half the
population are known to have been doing something illegal. Dragging them
off to prison would then mean the other half of the population would
have to stop generating value in order to engage in destructive work,
and then there will be medieval times and pitchforks.

Looking at the other extreme, with only one police man trying to police
a million, it won't matter if his AI knows everything.

Of course there will probably be a "happy" middle, and given enough
time, fully autonomous robots, but for the near future at least the
involvement of human being puts some kind of limitation on the bad news.

Best regards, 
Daniel



From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Dec 22 00:44:26 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 16:44:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <d0e95782-14fd-9cb9-c429-0f43042f9034@swisscows.email>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901da3440$fa27e200$ee77a600$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgu8B=jxxBPgvHf1sJOO0OiAOCBbyLgTiuote4BGP0AqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjMYR9ghCQgrA1ch3Q3W+hU-2GR6Cke=g4rGNgfd8b9uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d0e95782-14fd-9cb9-c429-0f43042f9034@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <008301da3470$04617bd0$0d247370$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
efc--- via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence



On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

>>
> <snip>
>>
>> To disappear from the system, you need to hide the phone in a Faraday
pouch.
>> (Of course, this is very suspicious behaviour).  ;)
>> -----------------------------
>
> >... A.I. Will Enable 
> Mass Spying.

>...Well, a small mitigating factor is that humans are still necessary to
enforce the laws and drag the people into prisons.

>...Daniel


_______________________________________________


Well not really Daniel.  In our times we have witnessed a transition to
lawsuit rather than prison.  Prisons cost money.  Lawsuits transfer money.
The kinds of cases that matter are  the ones where people are sued for
millions over what they say.

spike


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 22 02:00:01 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 20:00:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Metaphor
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZbN4Uv5FZqVALhY8kAaW9z0N3ksy4u-aUjY4juXX6zpw@mail.gmail.com>

Since it has been calculated (by Carl Sagan) that the brain puts out about
25 watts, we can conclude that we are all dim bulbs.   bill w
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From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Dec 22 09:22:28 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 10:22:28 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Home smart speakers could report crimes or violence
In-Reply-To: <008301da3470$04617bd0$0d247370$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgc2+6LQbDQMP0U2YXd5djhjj5EPSq=uzQfky_83P7+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99edb5c-0334-8410-2333-fc67c79b610c@swisscows.email>
 <713e8a1cff1aed40017259952d294ae1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <018401da341f$3b2a7640$b17f62c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgFADc3ZRCqpVoL7oi_=a+EktzRxHXrVjn70p-1aeDTcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004901da3440$fa27e200$ee77a600$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgu8B=jxxBPgvHf1sJOO0OiAOCBbyLgTiuote4BGP0AqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjMYR9ghCQgrA1ch3Q3W+hU-2GR6Cke=g4rGNgfd8b9uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d0e95782-14fd-9cb9-c429-0f43042f9034@swisscows.email>
 <008301da3470$04617bd0$0d247370$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <ef2c06b8-2e65-d062-64d6-ac81ebee60be@swisscows.email>

Good morning spike,

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> Well not really Daniel.  In our times we have witnessed a transition to
> lawsuit rather than prison.  Prisons cost money.  Lawsuits transfer money.
> The kinds of cases that matter are  the ones where people are sued for
> millions over what they say.

Hmm, well, if we assume automated courts, and automated transfers from
peoples bank accounts, I can think of no better way in order to enable
the shift to crypto currencies and cash in record speed.

After that, you would still have to have people running around actually
forcing other people to part with their money.

But to challenge myself, we'll then assume that cash is made illegal,
and no official physical currency will be produced. In that case, I
could see a black economy using some other countries currency, or
crypto. So society would split in two. The official where everyone is
guilty of a crime and can be potentially charged, and hte unofficial
being run on imported cash or crypto.

I guess my claim is that if too many resources of a society is used for
enforcement, punishment and administration, too little resources will be
left for productive work, and standards of living will fall. In theory,
low enough standards of living could spark a revolution, but I do admit
that it seems exceptionally rare, so I imagine it would have to be
"starvation and dead bodies in the streets"-levels of starvation before
the population feel that they have nothing to lose by their revolution.

Best regards, 
Daniel


>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 06:57:05 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 07:57:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Merry Christmas + e/acc, extropy, cosmism
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfg8zGpOSZm3SiqVhyFdOC4rKmMEfkV+3_yQ2KJ53BWdA@mail.gmail.com>

My end-of-year post. Merry Christmas & a happy, accelerated 2024 to
you all! More thoughts on effective accelerationism (e/acc), extropy,
cosmism, spaceflight, and AI.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/more-thoughts-on-effective-accelerationism

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 15:58:15 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 08:58:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Just a simple question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCqXH=2HGFMaqB6ydJ+HdH1b_-rrNjRypY70e_VQZihqA@mail.gmail.com>

For one thing, just as soon as someone is expert enough to upload
their own mind, then that uploaded mind becomes the world expert
immediately supplanting the former "expert" so if by expert you mean
the best in the world, then there couldn't be one for more than a few
milliseconds after they successfully upload their own mind. So being
an expert at mind uploading is a brief career.

On the other hand, there are experts in mind uploading today, if you
count uploading the mind of a C. Elegans. That person will remain an
expert at mind uploading for some time, I'd suspect.

In today's world, there are rarely individual experts on anything
leading edge. The reason for this is that to accomplish anything at
the moment takes a large team. There's no single expert on space
telescopes, but there are teams of experts on various subcomponents
that constitute a space telescope, and other experts at actually
getting said device into space.

Another interesting line of reasoning revolves around the unknowable
legal structure surrounding the future of AIs. Will the uploaded brain
of the upload expert be their own person? Will they have enough legal
rights to claim expertise, or will they be an "owned" tool of the
original uploadee? We can only imagine what those legal structures
might look like, but I'd bet the AIs would be smart enough to argue
their way into being recognized as legitimate sentient beings with
some rights at some point.

I found this question not to be at all stupid, but rather a good
prompt for foraging through a quite interesting ideascape.

-Kelly

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:47?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> How can there be an expert in mind-uploading?  bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 16:11:50 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:11:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
Message-ID: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>

Einstein proposed that nothing could achieve the speed of light
because it gained mass as it got closer to that speed.

I wonder if something similar might affect intellectual progress.
Though there is no c there, so it might not hold together entirely.
Hang with this for a second though, as there is a counter exponential
at play.

As we grope into the future, there is a trend away from the single
brilliant inventor. Edison had a whole lab of people, some of whom
were clearly smarter than he. Eli Whitney pretty much invented the
cotton gin by himself relying on only a few simple precedent ideas. By
the time we get to super colliders, fusion reactors and rockets, you
need a village of scientists and engineers to make progress.

Is it possible that the exponential curve towards the singularity has
a hidden negative signal of increased resistance to progress because
of the required size of the team? Might this be one reason that we
haven't yet progressed beyond the jumbo jet airliner? Is that
indicative of the future of a lot of things? How many Intel employees
does it take to design the next iteration of their CPU? Yes, they have
computational minds that help them with layout and such now... but you
can hardly say Oppenheimer was the inventor of the atomic bomb. He was
the face of the project and coordinated the efforts to some degree,
but you can't make that level of progress without a sea of minds. Musk
has ideas (or maybe his people do that too) and finances them, but the
actual work is carried forward by an army of engineering ants. As I
believe in emergence as a deep concept, I tend to see groups more than
individuals, though I value individual contribution greatly.

Perhaps my mind has wandered too freely and it is time to go work on
my own, much simpler, inventions, as they seem to constantly be
broken.

-Kelly

From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 16:39:15 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:39:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhn=N3L158KdrvRg0yqOzgzk80WONuzF6VA2ZZUOpWivA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 11:12 AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Einstein proposed that nothing could achieve the speed of light
> because it gained mass as it got closer to that speed.
>
> I wonder if something similar might affect intellectual progress.
>

There is. Seth Lloyd describes the physical limits of computational speed
and memory density, which are a function of just three physical constants
(c, h-bar, and G): https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9908043

I would argue these computational bounds imply a physical bound on
intelligence (which is limited by, and to an extent a function of,
computation and memory).

Roughly speaking, computational speed is a function of mass, while memory
is a function of mass and volume. The greater the volume the more memory,
but the slower non-parallelizable processing becomes. Energy use is a
function of forgetting (erasing information) and background temperature. A
reversible computer loses no information, and therefore need use no energy
at all to run.

The physical object with the fastest computation and memory density would
look like a black hole:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/black-hole-computers-2007-04/


Though there is no c there, so it might not hold together entirely.
> Hang with this for a second though, as there is a counter exponential
> at play.
>
> As we grope into the future, there is a trend away from the single
> brilliant inventor. Edison had a whole lab of people, some of whom
> were clearly smarter than he. Eli Whitney pretty much invented the
> cotton gin by himself relying on only a few simple precedent ideas. By
> the time we get to super colliders, fusion reactors and rockets, you
> need a village of scientists and engineers to make progress.
>

I see echos of the memory / parallelism/ volume / speed trade-offs in
physics reemerging here in the context of human brains, teams, remote work,
etc. Very interesting.


> Is it possible that the exponential curve towards the singularity has
> a hidden negative signal of increased resistance to progress because
> of the required size of the team? Might this be one reason that we
> haven't yet progressed beyond the jumbo jet airliner? Is that
> indicative of the future of a lot of things? How many Intel employees
> does it take to design the next iteration of their CPU? Yes, they have
> computational minds that help them with layout and such now... but you
> can hardly say Oppenheimer was the inventor of the atomic bomb. He was
> the face of the project and coordinated the efforts to some degree,
> but you can't make that level of progress without a sea of minds. Musk
> has ideas (or maybe his people do that too) and finances them, but the
> actual work is carried forward by an army of engineering ants. As I
> believe in emergence as a deep concept, I tend to see groups more than
> individuals, though I value individual contribution greatly.
>

Progress has loosely been a function of the number of inventors which is a
function of population. There was a trend change in population growth in
the 60s which seemed to alter the path we were on:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/04/22/1960-the-year-the-singularity-was-cancelled/

I don't know to what extent this may have forestalled thy singularity,
however, as computers have been taking on an ever greater fraction of the
cognitive load. I think we're still roughly on track for van Forrester's
predictions of 2027 +/- 5 years.



> Perhaps my mind has wandered too freely and it is time to go work on
> my own, much simpler, inventions, as they seem to constantly be
> broken.
>

Thanks for your intriguing ideas. I appreciate them.

Jason
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 16:41:05 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 08:41:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSB5T72Ci7P1OkbVusG3PYj2aXchoNbPqXKFhXuXudPAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:13?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Einstein proposed that nothing could achieve the speed of light
> because it gained mass as it got closer to that speed.
>
> I wonder if something similar might affect intellectual progress.
> Though there is no c there, so it might not hold together entirely.
> Hang with this for a second though, as there is a counter exponential
> at play.
>
> As we grope into the future, there is a trend away from the single
> brilliant inventor. Edison had a whole lab of people, some of whom
> were clearly smarter than he. Eli Whitney pretty much invented the
> cotton gin by himself relying on only a few simple precedent ideas. By
> the time we get to super colliders, fusion reactors and rockets, you
> need a village of scientists and engineers to make progress.
>

That is only a function of how big the design is.  It is possible for one
person to design all the components, but it is infeasible for one person to
build something that large.  The light bulb was a bit of an exception,
though
https://www.statista.com/chart/10567/the-cost-of-light-through-the-ages/
shows that in 1880 - after Edison's team's famous labor - artificial light
still cost over 10,000 times what it does today,after accounting for
inflation.

That said, as it is said, we live in a society.  Eli Whitney did not invent
mining, blacksmithing, or the other crafts needed to make the parts he
assembled.  Albert Einstein did not invent physics, mathematics, or writing
- not even the German or English languages.  Those who come up with new
things, start from other contributions of those who have gone before them.
The Internet allows dramatically better access to this - if it has been
written up and posted where one can get at it, if one is skilled enough to
find it, and if one is of a mindset to do so:even today's youth who grew up
online too often do not think to search for answers online when they have
questions they find difficult.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 23 16:45:38 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 08:45:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Merry Christmas + e/acc, extropy, cosmism
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfg8zGpOSZm3SiqVhyFdOC4rKmMEfkV+3_yQ2KJ53BWdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfg8zGpOSZm3SiqVhyFdOC4rKmMEfkV+3_yQ2KJ53BWdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01da35bf$763d85a0$62b890e0$@rainier66.com>



Giulio, likewise sir!  May 2024 be very good to you.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 22 December, 2023 10:57 PM
To: extropolis at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Merry Christmas + e/acc, extropy, cosmism

My end-of-year post. Merry Christmas & a happy, accelerated 2024 to you all!
More thoughts on effective accelerationism (e/acc), extropy, cosmism,
spaceflight, and AI.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/more-thoughts-on-effective-accelerationism
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 23 17:09:35 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:09:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005901da35c2$ce7d32d0$6b779870$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?

>...Einstein proposed that nothing could achieve the speed of light because
it gained mass as it got closer to that speed...
...
>...Is it possible that the exponential curve towards the singularity has a
hidden negative signal of increased resistance to progress because of the
required size of the team? ...-Kelly
_______________________________________________


Cool analogy Kelly.

I hafta think there are some negative feedback loops we don't really know
about yet, or don't know well.  Of course a controls engineer will think of
that possibility: the absence of negative feedback loops in any mechanical
system leads to a singularity, or a resonance, or some kind of breakdown in
the linearity of the system.

Singularity theory requires the absence of negative feedback.  We still
don't know if that model is right.

spike


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 17:45:11 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 12:45:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+NSw9AT5JeM2oSURQi4K+aMGJbVx4wikH4rJxv7A2kEA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 11:13 AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> As I believe in emergence as a deep concept, I tend to see groups more than
> individuals, though I value individual contribution greatly.
>
> Perhaps my mind has wandered too freely and it is time to go work on
> my own, much simpler, inventions, as they seem to constantly be
> broken.
>

I know your focus was on low level engineering principles, but I would
propose an emergent driver at another organizational level: values
alignment of the population.  Even if your smartest engineers prove
something like climate change can be managed adequately, the implementation
costs (lifestyle change) may be unacceptable to the majority - then are the
constraints properly modelled for the problem to actually be solved.  I
originally thought down the line that common resources (earth) may be best
allocated as computation after turning the planet completely to
computronium and abandoning this obsession with green biology - but the
climate example is closer to home (and now)  i know we may as well upload
the bio-humans and run their zoo simulation with sufficient fidelity that
they never know the nature of their Nature, but on the way to that
implementation there will be disagreements that slow progress.  Slowing
progress is that negative feedback, but has little to do with engineering
and instead is a people problem.  The larger the impact to people (positive
or negative, per perception or opinion) the larger the people problem
becomes.

>
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 17:54:00 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 10:54:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Unassailability and the Fermi Paradox
Message-ID: <CACBESnBhFVFTEketACkuW3q47kSOM2o8qSU3RwUyU6rS5AicHA@mail.gmail.com>

I doubt this is a new idea.

After reading the Scientific America article that was recently proffered...

Within history for the past few thousand years there has been an
oscillation between unassailable walls and more and more terrible
machines for breaching walls. When taken to its limit, the most
unassailable wall in the universe is the event horizon of a black
hole. Going through an event horizon, as I understand it, leads to a
poor outcome for the invader. If, on the other hand, it were possible
to engineer the collapse creating a black hole such that the matter
initially creating the black hole maintained some kind of pattern,
then one could conceptually collapse one's civilization into a black
hole and thus create an unassailable wall the likes of which has never
been seen in our history. Perhaps this is a partial answer to the
Fermi Paradox, I know people have associated black holes with the
paradox before, so nothing new there... but orbiting a black hole
seems slightly different than creating a black hole with maintained
patterns within... comments? Am I just missing some large part of
physics here?

-Kelly

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 18:00:08 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:00:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI ChatGPT Outperforms Humans in Providing Social Advice
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg0VCPn4Cno8X=vqaXVPQoTMP+22f8Ue0CX5RWYmwt93g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armizGmRg7St6w3+8_+XW5L3TSNvqCgA+LjGQUdzF59nhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnDp7dvj+btRqP9xSYEGJZfHTF+qoqamqonkbSZ6bktiGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg0VCPn4Cno8X=vqaXVPQoTMP+22f8Ue0CX5RWYmwt93g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCRNJG3sAyyQzeUopt0u_57xLWvj75+yzuHTq4PdG1GFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 4:39?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 3 Dec 2023 at 23:23, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I very consistently use ChatGPT when writing sensitive emails to
> > squeeze out the Aspherger's type phrases I picked up after years of
> > programming. It consistently fixes my tone and puts more humanity into
> > my communications than I am able to do by myself. It's saved my butt
> > quite a few times now. I just write the email I want to with the "fuck
> > yous" and tell ChatGPT to make it nice and viola! I get a nicely
> > phrased email suitable for humans.
> >
> > -Kelly
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> That's a good use for ChatGPT.
> Maybe it could also help Elon Musk talk to X customers
> and improve his language! :)

It might at that.

I once again used ChatGPT to compose a letter this morning... took 4
iterations... I'd be happy to share:

To whom it may concern,

As close friends and employers of <name redacted>, we have the unique
opportunity to observe his daily life and the challenges he bravely
faces. <name redacted> is more than just a contributor to society; he
is a testament to the strength of the human spirit in facing
adversity. Despite the personal challenges he endures, notably with
his wife?s health situation, his ability to work and live
independently is a clear indication of his capabilities.

<name redacted>'s generosity and community spirit are exemplified in
actions like helping co-workers with transportation, even going so far
as to give away his own car. This selflessness is just one aspect of
his character that makes him a valued member of our community.

While <name redacted> may not focus on personal appearance, this trait
does not reflect any deeper dysfunction. We see <name redacted> in a
light that occasional observers cannot, and we are confident in his
ability to manage his life with the same diligence he shows at work.
We are actively working with him to enhance this aspect of his life,
and he is receptive to these efforts. With his wife now in care, <name
redacted> has the opportunity to focus more on his personal
development.

We understand that some may express concern over <name redacted>'s
situation, especially with the recent changes in his personal life.
However, these concerns, while well-intentioned, may not fully account
for <name redacted>'s resilience and resourcefulness. We see him
overcome challenges daily, and his desire to work and be a part of our
team is not just a job for him; it?s a part of his identity and his
anchor in these turbulent times.

The community?s support for <name redacted> is overwhelming. Whenever
we mention his progress, the positive response is heartwarming. This
community love reinforces the positive impact <name redacted> has on
everyone.

In conclusion, we stand firmly in support of <name redacted>'s
continued independence and well-being. His contribution to our
workplace and the community is invaluable, and we are committed to
supporting him in every way possible. We welcome any discussions
regarding his future and care.

Sincerely,
Kelly Anderson


I thought it turned out considerably better than I could have done by
myself, and was very quick work.

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 18:06:52 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 18:06:52 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <005901da35c2$ce7d32d0$6b779870$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005901da35c2$ce7d32d0$6b779870$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armikeot2ziJJSGd7Y1McCxM4QAAaKhkTracHMe7XmcERQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 at 17:11, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I hafta think there are some negative feedback loops we don't really know
> about yet, or don't know well.  Of course a controls engineer will think of
> that possibility: the absence of negative feedback loops in any mechanical
> system leads to a singularity, or a resonance, or some kind of breakdown in
> the linearity of the system.
>
> Singularity theory requires the absence of negative feedback.  We still
> don't know if that model is right.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


My favourite AI is optimistic that obstacles can be overcome.
But it doesn't know about 'unknown' obstacles.  :)
BillK

--------------------------
 As technological progress accelerates at an ever-increasing rate,
could there be unexpected blocks to further progress?

Yes, as technological progress accelerates at an ever-increasing rate,
there could be unexpected blocks or obstacles that hinder further
progress. While the trajectory of progress is often envisioned as
exponential, it's important to recognize that various factors can
influence the pace and direction of advancement. Here are some
potential blocks to progress:

1. Technological Constraints: As technologies advance, they may
encounter fundamental physical or engineering limitations that impede
further breakthroughs. For example, in some fields, such as
semiconductor manufacturing or battery technology, researchers may
reach the limits of what current materials or processes can achieve,
requiring significant innovations or paradigm shifts to overcome these
constraints.

2. Resource Limitations: Technological progress often requires
substantial resources, including funding, raw materials, energy, and
skilled labor. If these resources become scarce or inaccessible, it
could impede the development and deployment of new technologies.
Additionally, geopolitical factors, economic conditions, or
environmental challenges may affect the availability and distribution
of resources necessary for progress.

3. Regulatory and Legal Barriers: The introduction of new technologies
often prompts regulatory and legal considerations. Governments and
regulatory bodies may impose restrictions or regulations to address
concerns about safety, ethics, privacy, or other societal impacts.
While these measures are intended to ensure responsible development,
they can also create barriers, delays, or uncertainties that slow down
progress.

4. Ethical and Social Implications: As technological advancements
become more complex and impactful, ethical and social implications
become increasingly salient. Concerns about privacy, security,
equality, and societal disruptions may lead to calls for caution,
regulation, or even outright resistance to certain technologies.
Public opinion and ethical considerations can significantly influence
the trajectory of progress.

5. Unforeseen Challenges: Technological progress often involves
navigating unpredictable challenges and setbacks. New discoveries may
reveal unforeseen risks or limitations, requiring researchers to
revisit their approaches or develop new solutions. Additionally, the
complexity of certain problems, such as understanding the human brain
or achieving breakthroughs in fundamental physics, may present
unexpected hurdles that slow down progress.

6. Economic or Market Factors: The pace of progress can be influenced
by economic factors and market dynamics. Technological advancements
require investments, market demand, and viable business models to
support their development and deployment. If economic conditions
change, funding becomes scarce, or market demand shifts, it can impact
the speed and direction of progress in specific areas.

While these blocks can pose challenges, it's important to note that
they are not insurmountable. Often, overcoming these obstacles
requires collaboration, interdisciplinary approaches, innovative
solutions, and adaptive strategies. The ability to address and
navigate these blocks effectively can shape the future trajectory of
progress.
------------------

From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 18:48:21 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 13:48:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Unassailability and the Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBhFVFTEketACkuW3q47kSOM2o8qSU3RwUyU6rS5AicHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBhFVFTEketACkuW3q47kSOM2o8qSU3RwUyU6rS5AicHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhgpAiXzC=Qyh3AQBEUXML_e=SVOBsJHAPfMxX0nUUm-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 12:55 PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I doubt this is a new idea.
>
> After reading the Scientific America article that was recently proffered...
>
> Within history for the past few thousand years there has been an
> oscillation between unassailable walls and more and more terrible
> machines for breaching walls. When taken to its limit, the most
> unassailable wall in the universe is the event horizon of a black
> hole. Going through an event horizon, as I understand it, leads to a
> poor outcome for the invader. If, on the other hand, it were possible
> to engineer the collapse creating a black hole such that the matter
> initially creating the black hole maintained some kind of pattern,
> then one could conceptually collapse one's civilization into a black
> hole and thus create an unassailable wall the likes of which has never
> been seen in our history. Perhaps this is a partial answer to the
> Fermi Paradox, I know people have associated black holes with the
> paradox before, so nothing new there... but orbiting a black hole
> seems slightly different than creating a black hole with maintained
> patterns within... comments? Am I just missing some large part of
> physics here?
>

This has been coined the "Transcension Hypothesis" by Jonathan Smart:

https://alwaysasking.com/are-we-alone/#They_Leave_our_Universe

Jason



> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 23 18:49:42 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 10:49:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] mathematical musical comedy
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnCRNJG3sAyyQzeUopt0u_57xLWvj75+yzuHTq4PdG1GFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armizGmRg7St6w3+8_+XW5L3TSNvqCgA+LjGQUdzF59nhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnDp7dvj+btRqP9xSYEGJZfHTF+qoqamqonkbSZ6bktiGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg0VCPn4Cno8X=vqaXVPQoTMP+22f8Ue0CX5RWYmwt93g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCRNJG3sAyyQzeUopt0u_57xLWvj75+yzuHTq4PdG1GFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b301da35d0$cb0038b0$6100aa10$@rainier66.com>



Priceless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOCsdhzo6Jg

spike


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 19:00:01 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:00:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Just a simple question
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnCqXH=2HGFMaqB6ydJ+HdH1b_-rrNjRypY70e_VQZihqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb_Ntok5Lo25YyzWcp4BCanAvVZ4UJXdn-EUCRYUzeLpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCqXH=2HGFMaqB6ydJ+HdH1b_-rrNjRypY70e_VQZihqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6P8F2PP8sspYu+ivj05go=n9Rb=--TFBT-A50kvU8nGA@mail.gmail.com>

I would suggest extreme caution in uploading brains.

Humans have evolved psychological traits that seem to be a bad idea if
the uploaded version has a lot of power.

Keith

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 7:59?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> For one thing, just as soon as someone is expert enough to upload
> their own mind, then that uploaded mind becomes the world expert
> immediately supplanting the former "expert" so if by expert you mean
> the best in the world, then there couldn't be one for more than a few
> milliseconds after they successfully upload their own mind. So being
> an expert at mind uploading is a brief career.
>
> On the other hand, there are experts in mind uploading today, if you
> count uploading the mind of a C. Elegans. That person will remain an
> expert at mind uploading for some time, I'd suspect.
>
> In today's world, there are rarely individual experts on anything
> leading edge. The reason for this is that to accomplish anything at
> the moment takes a large team. There's no single expert on space
> telescopes, but there are teams of experts on various subcomponents
> that constitute a space telescope, and other experts at actually
> getting said device into space.
>
> Another interesting line of reasoning revolves around the unknowable
> legal structure surrounding the future of AIs. Will the uploaded brain
> of the upload expert be their own person? Will they have enough legal
> rights to claim expertise, or will they be an "owned" tool of the
> original uploadee? We can only imagine what those legal structures
> might look like, but I'd bet the AIs would be smart enough to argue
> their way into being recognized as legitimate sentient beings with
> some rights at some point.
>
> I found this question not to be at all stupid, but rather a good
> prompt for foraging through a quite interesting ideascape.
>
> -Kelly
>
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:47?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > How can there be an expert in mind-uploading?  bill w
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Dec 23 19:42:06 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:42:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Unassailability and the Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhgpAiXzC=Qyh3AQBEUXML_e=SVOBsJHAPfMxX0nUUm-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBhFVFTEketACkuW3q47kSOM2o8qSU3RwUyU6rS5AicHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhgpAiXzC=Qyh3AQBEUXML_e=SVOBsJHAPfMxX0nUUm-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c401da35d8$1ce48f80$56adae80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Jason Resch via extropy-chat
?

 

>?This has been coined the "Transcension Hypothesis" by Jonathan Smart:

 

https://alwaysasking.com/are-we-alone/#They_Leave_our_Universe

 

Jason 

 

 

 

John Smart!  Cool!

 

What is he doing these days?  I went to several of his lectures when he was a local, but I lost track of him about 20 yrs ago.  Hell of a nice guy in addition to being very appropriately named.

 

Anyone following John Smart these days?

 

spike

 

 

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From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Dec 23 20:50:17 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 21:50:17 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Unassailability and the Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <00c401da35d8$1ce48f80$56adae80$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACBESnBhFVFTEketACkuW3q47kSOM2o8qSU3RwUyU6rS5AicHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhgpAiXzC=Qyh3AQBEUXML_e=SVOBsJHAPfMxX0nUUm-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c401da35d8$1ce48f80$56adae80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <f9d141bc-b922-a009-f12b-7ac7031f09a2@swisscows.email>

Another fun take on the theme, if memory serves, is the David Brin short 
stories The Crystal Spheres 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crystal_Spheres)! =)

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sat, 23 Dec 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Jason Resch via extropy-chat
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> >?This has been coined the "Transcension Hypothesis" by Jonathan Smart:
> 
> ?
> 
> https://alwaysasking.com/are-we-alone/#They_Leave_our_Universe
> 
> ?
> 
> Jason?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> John Smart!? Cool!
> 
> ?
> 
> What is he doing these days?? I went to several of his lectures when he was a local, but I lost track of him about 20 yrs ago.? Hell
> of a nice guy in addition to being very appropriately named.
> 
> ?
> 
> Anyone following John Smart these days?
> 
> ?
> 
> spike
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Dec 23 20:56:05 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 21:56:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30f7284a-f06d-4be9-3f8c-a5f8af4501a0@swisscows.email>



On Sat, 23 Dec 2023, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:

> Is it possible that the exponential curve towards the singularity has
> a hidden negative signal of increased resistance to progress because
> of the required size of the team? Might this be one reason that we

Hello Kelly,

I often thought about the same thing myself, especially in the face of
AI-doomers. What if there is a "hard limit" on intelligence? Wouldn't
that be a disappointment, but also, very fascinating!

It is of course not right to generalize/speculate from biological intelligence 
to non-biological intelligence (but who knows, maybe the same principles
apply?) but it seems to me that the more intelligent the person, the
higher the likelihood for psychological problems and not being able to
navigate the physical world successfully. So maybe evolution has evolved
a "functional span" for intelligence, where too much and too little are
not conducive to passing on ones genes?

Of course that's just my own subjective experience with very smart
people, so I would be interested in if there is in fact a correlation
between very intelligent people and psychological problems/instability
or if that is just an urban myth.

Best regards, 
Daniel



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 21:25:54 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 13:25:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhn=N3L158KdrvRg0yqOzgzk80WONuzF6VA2ZZUOpWivA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhn=N3L158KdrvRg0yqOzgzk80WONuzF6VA2ZZUOpWivA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4t-Wjd7fh7B1T83vGpegKkPg6F-RP8j7yWf52af8_uaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:40?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 11:12 AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Einstein proposed that nothing could achieve the speed of light
>> because it gained mass as it got closer to that speed.
>>
>> I wonder if something similar might affect intellectual progress.
>
>
> There is. Seth Lloyd describes the physical limits of computational speed and memory density, which are a function of just three physical constants (c, h-bar, and G): https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9908043

I have to read this more carefully, but I wonder if he got the
radiation limits right.

If Tabby's Star blinking is the result of huge data centers coming
between us and the star, then we have an example

Kieth

> I would argue these computational bounds imply a physical bound on intelligence (which is limited by, and to an extent a function of, computation and memory).
>
> Roughly speaking, computational speed is a function of mass, while memory is a function of mass and volume. The greater the volume the more memory, but the slower non-parallelizable processing becomes. Energy use is a function of forgetting (erasing information) and background temperature. A reversible computer loses no information, and therefore need use no energy at all to run.
>
> The physical object with the fastest computation and memory density would look like a black hole:
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/black-hole-computers-2007-04/
>
>
>> Though there is no c there, so it might not hold together entirely.
>> Hang with this for a second though, as there is a counter exponential
>> at play.
>>
>> As we grope into the future, there is a trend away from the single
>> brilliant inventor. Edison had a whole lab of people, some of whom
>> were clearly smarter than he. Eli Whitney pretty much invented the
>> cotton gin by himself relying on only a few simple precedent ideas. By
>> the time we get to super colliders, fusion reactors and rockets, you
>> need a village of scientists and engineers to make progress.
>
>
> I see echos of the memory / parallelism/ volume / speed trade-offs in physics reemerging here in the context of human brains, teams, remote work, etc. Very interesting.
>
>>
>> Is it possible that the exponential curve towards the singularity has
>> a hidden negative signal of increased resistance to progress because
>> of the required size of the team? Might this be one reason that we
>> haven't yet progressed beyond the jumbo jet airliner? Is that
>> indicative of the future of a lot of things? How many Intel employees
>> does it take to design the next iteration of their CPU? Yes, they have
>> computational minds that help them with layout and such now... but you
>> can hardly say Oppenheimer was the inventor of the atomic bomb. He was
>> the face of the project and coordinated the efforts to some degree,
>> but you can't make that level of progress without a sea of minds. Musk
>> has ideas (or maybe his people do that too) and finances them, but the
>> actual work is carried forward by an army of engineering ants. As I
>> believe in emergence as a deep concept, I tend to see groups more than
>> individuals, though I value individual contribution greatly.
>
>
> Progress has loosely been a function of the number of inventors which is a function of population. There was a trend change in population growth in the 60s which seemed to alter the path we were on:
>
> https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/04/22/1960-the-year-the-singularity-was-cancelled/
>
> I don't know to what extent this may have forestalled thy singularity, however, as computers have been taking on an ever greater fraction of the cognitive load. I think we're still roughly on track for van Forrester's predictions of 2027 +/- 5 years.
>
>
>>
>> Perhaps my mind has wandered too freely and it is time to go work on
>> my own, much simpler, inventions, as they seem to constantly be
>> broken.
>
>
> Thanks for your intriguing ideas. I appreciate them.
>
> Jason
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 21:41:34 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 16:41:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4t-Wjd7fh7B1T83vGpegKkPg6F-RP8j7yWf52af8_uaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhn=N3L158KdrvRg0yqOzgzk80WONuzF6VA2ZZUOpWivA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4t-Wjd7fh7B1T83vGpegKkPg6F-RP8j7yWf52af8_uaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUj6eJm1=FHfw6W_T++RxupdKU2U9rOc_dXtzATOj4xqBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 4:26 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 8:40?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 11:12 AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Einstein proposed that nothing could achieve the speed of light
> >> because it gained mass as it got closer to that speed.
> >>
> >> I wonder if something similar might affect intellectual progress.
> >
> >
> > There is. Seth Lloyd describes the physical limits of computational
> speed and memory density, which are a function of just three physical
> constants (c, h-bar, and G): https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9908043
>
> I have to read this more carefully, but I wonder if he got the
> radiation limits right.
>

The limits he arrives at are roughly in line with Bremermann's limit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremermann%27s_limit

Which is a straightforward calculation for how quickly a quantum system can
detectably transition between states. It is essentially the amount of time
it takes for a photon of a given energy to traverse its own wavelength.
This yields a physical bound on Hertz for a given amount of energy (or
mass).



> If Tabby's Star blinking is the result of huge data centers coming
> between us and the star, then we have an example


>
Stars only convert 0.7% of their mass to energy from fusion. Stephen
hawking suggested advanced civilizations might use small black holes as
power plants as they could convert 100% of their mass to energy:

"A mountain-sized black hole would give off X-rays and gamma rays, at a
rate of about 10 million megawatts, enough to power the world?s electricity
supply."
-- Stephen Hawking

Something this small would likely be completely undetectable to us.
Further, if alien civilizations shift to using reversible computers, then
energy would no longer be a scarce resource to them as their computers
could run without consuming power.

Jason


> Kieth
>
> > I would argue these computational bounds imply a physical bound on
> intelligence (which is limited by, and to an extent a function of,
> computation and memory).
> >
> > Roughly speaking, computational speed is a function of mass, while
> memory is a function of mass and volume. The greater the volume the more
> memory, but the slower non-parallelizable processing becomes. Energy use is
> a function of forgetting (erasing information) and background temperature.
> A reversible computer loses no information, and therefore need use no
> energy at all to run.
> >
> > The physical object with the fastest computation and memory density
> would look like a black hole:
> > https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/black-hole-computers-2007-04/
> >
> >
> >> Though there is no c there, so it might not hold together entirely.
> >> Hang with this for a second though, as there is a counter exponential
> >> at play.
> >>
> >> As we grope into the future, there is a trend away from the single
> >> brilliant inventor. Edison had a whole lab of people, some of whom
> >> were clearly smarter than he. Eli Whitney pretty much invented the
> >> cotton gin by himself relying on only a few simple precedent ideas. By
> >> the time we get to super colliders, fusion reactors and rockets, you
> >> need a village of scientists and engineers to make progress.
> >
> >
> > I see echos of the memory / parallelism/ volume / speed trade-offs in
> physics reemerging here in the context of human brains, teams, remote work,
> etc. Very interesting.
> >
> >>
> >> Is it possible that the exponential curve towards the singularity has
> >> a hidden negative signal of increased resistance to progress because
> >> of the required size of the team? Might this be one reason that we
> >> haven't yet progressed beyond the jumbo jet airliner? Is that
> >> indicative of the future of a lot of things? How many Intel employees
> >> does it take to design the next iteration of their CPU? Yes, they have
> >> computational minds that help them with layout and such now... but you
> >> can hardly say Oppenheimer was the inventor of the atomic bomb. He was
> >> the face of the project and coordinated the efforts to some degree,
> >> but you can't make that level of progress without a sea of minds. Musk
> >> has ideas (or maybe his people do that too) and finances them, but the
> >> actual work is carried forward by an army of engineering ants. As I
> >> believe in emergence as a deep concept, I tend to see groups more than
> >> individuals, though I value individual contribution greatly.
> >
> >
> > Progress has loosely been a function of the number of inventors which is
> a function of population. There was a trend change in population growth in
> the 60s which seemed to alter the path we were on:
> >
> >
> https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/04/22/1960-the-year-the-singularity-was-cancelled/
> >
> > I don't know to what extent this may have forestalled thy singularity,
> however, as computers have been taking on an ever greater fraction of the
> cognitive load. I think we're still roughly on track for van Forrester's
> predictions of 2027 +/- 5 years.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Perhaps my mind has wandered too freely and it is time to go work on
> >> my own, much simpler, inventions, as they seem to constantly be
> >> broken.
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your intriguing ideas. I appreciate them.
> >
> > Jason
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 22:54:23 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 16:54:23 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>

On some post which I cannot find, a question arose about high IQ and
mental stability.

High IQ people, according to data I ran across some time ago, are better
off than their closer to the average peers in every way:  mental health,
physical health, economic health - in short on every significant factor.

This is a small correlation between IQ and manic/depression, which some
high IQ people in history manifested.  There is no correlation with
psychoticism - although high IQ people do tend to be a bit weird compared
to the 'normal' person. Myths die hard.

bill w
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 02:20:32 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 18:20:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUj6eJm1=FHfw6W_T++RxupdKU2U9rOc_dXtzATOj4xqBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhn=N3L158KdrvRg0yqOzgzk80WONuzF6VA2ZZUOpWivA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4t-Wjd7fh7B1T83vGpegKkPg6F-RP8j7yWf52af8_uaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj6eJm1=FHfw6W_T++RxupdKU2U9rOc_dXtzATOj4xqBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5Tf6TuEWhQDsOHZN+2wSyt+JF_08rYHqYVj4Arz+SpSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 1:41?PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> Stars only convert 0.7% of their mass to energy from fusion. Stephen hawking suggested advanced civilizations might use small black holes as power plants as they could convert 100% of their mass to energy:
>
> "A mountain-sized black hole would give off X-rays and gamma rays, at a rate of about 10 million megawatts, enough to power the world?s electricity supply."
> -- Stephen Hawking

Whatever is blocking light at Tabby's Star is intercepting 1.4 million
times the total energy the human race uses.  I suspect that back holes
may be beyond the most advanced engineering.  In any case, stars
provide a lot of energy even for smallish dyson patches.

Keith
>
> Something this small would likely be completely undetectable to us. Further, if alien civilizations shift to using reversible computers, then energy would no longer be a scarce resource to them as their computers could run without consuming power.
>
> Jason
>
>>
>> Kieth
>>
>> > I would argue these computational bounds imply a physical bound on intelligence (which is limited by, and to an extent a function of, computation and memory).
>> >
>> > Roughly speaking, computational speed is a function of mass, while memory is a function of mass and volume. The greater the volume the more memory, but the slower non-parallelizable processing becomes. Energy use is a function of forgetting (erasing information) and background temperature. A reversible computer loses no information, and therefore need use no energy at all to run.
>> >
>> > The physical object with the fastest computation and memory density would look like a black hole:
>> > https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/black-hole-computers-2007-04/
>> >
>> >
>> >> Though there is no c there, so it might not hold together entirely.
>> >> Hang with this for a second though, as there is a counter exponential
>> >> at play.
>> >>
>> >> As we grope into the future, there is a trend away from the single
>> >> brilliant inventor. Edison had a whole lab of people, some of whom
>> >> were clearly smarter than he. Eli Whitney pretty much invented the
>> >> cotton gin by himself relying on only a few simple precedent ideas. By
>> >> the time we get to super colliders, fusion reactors and rockets, you
>> >> need a village of scientists and engineers to make progress.
>> >
>> >
>> > I see echos of the memory / parallelism/ volume / speed trade-offs in physics reemerging here in the context of human brains, teams, remote work, etc. Very interesting.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Is it possible that the exponential curve towards the singularity has
>> >> a hidden negative signal of increased resistance to progress because
>> >> of the required size of the team? Might this be one reason that we
>> >> haven't yet progressed beyond the jumbo jet airliner? Is that
>> >> indicative of the future of a lot of things? How many Intel employees
>> >> does it take to design the next iteration of their CPU? Yes, they have
>> >> computational minds that help them with layout and such now... but you
>> >> can hardly say Oppenheimer was the inventor of the atomic bomb. He was
>> >> the face of the project and coordinated the efforts to some degree,
>> >> but you can't make that level of progress without a sea of minds. Musk
>> >> has ideas (or maybe his people do that too) and finances them, but the
>> >> actual work is carried forward by an army of engineering ants. As I
>> >> believe in emergence as a deep concept, I tend to see groups more than
>> >> individuals, though I value individual contribution greatly.
>> >
>> >
>> > Progress has loosely been a function of the number of inventors which is a function of population. There was a trend change in population growth in the 60s which seemed to alter the path we were on:
>> >
>> > https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/04/22/1960-the-year-the-singularity-was-cancelled/
>> >
>> > I don't know to what extent this may have forestalled thy singularity, however, as computers have been taking on an ever greater fraction of the cognitive load. I think we're still roughly on track for van Forrester's predictions of 2027 +/- 5 years.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Perhaps my mind has wandered too freely and it is time to go work on
>> >> my own, much simpler, inventions, as they seem to constantly be
>> >> broken.
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks for your intriguing ideas. I appreciate them.
>> >
>> > Jason
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Dec 24 03:43:22 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 19:43:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007401da361b$586b87f0$094297d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)

 

>?High IQ people, according to data I ran across some time ago, are better off than their closer to the average peers in every way:  mental health, physical health, economic health - in short on every significant factor.? Myths die hard.

 

bill w

 

 

 

 

So much for my strategy of acting crazy so people will think I must be smart.

 

The other still works however: if one dresses in an awkward way, decades outdated fashions for instance, people will assume you must be a good engineer.

 

spike

 

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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 05:20:32 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 22:20:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUj6eJm1=FHfw6W_T++RxupdKU2U9rOc_dXtzATOj4xqBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhn=N3L158KdrvRg0yqOzgzk80WONuzF6VA2ZZUOpWivA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4t-Wjd7fh7B1T83vGpegKkPg6F-RP8j7yWf52af8_uaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj6eJm1=FHfw6W_T++RxupdKU2U9rOc_dXtzATOj4xqBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnBvLtbJpdkwpTiGZkz323Z0Qkr0Ko4=UgfN7e-zHA8Wug@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>>
> Something this small would likely be completely undetectable to us.
> Further, if alien civilizations shift to using reversible computers, then
> energy would no longer be a scarce resource to them as their computers
> could run without consuming power.
>
> Jason
>

Jason,

Reversible computation is possible. However it is not a free ride. That
would be a perpetual motion machine and would violate the second law of
thermodynamics which appears to be very well established physics. When you
harvest a result that is not reversed. So don't think of it as free. It's
more like an electric car that gets some energy back from generating
electricity from breaking. That doesn't mean you're going to travel a
thousand miles for nothing.

-Kelly

>
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From scerir at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 05:25:47 2023
From: scerir at gmail.com (serafino cerulli-irelli)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 06:25:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <007401da361b$586b87f0$094297d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401da361b$586b87f0$094297d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAKG+AHx=eK8y05z696R1rs_Ftrdq9CVA6m76vTjknzozjEijuQ@mail.gmail.com>

 [spike] if one dresses in an awkward way, decades outdated fashions for
instance, people will assume you must be a good engineer.
[scerir] or a mathematician
https://www.ens-lyon.fr/en/research/honors-and-awards/cedric-villani-mathematician


On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 at 04:44, spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* [ExI] (no subject)
>
>
>
> >?High IQ people, according to data I ran across some time ago, are
> better off than their closer to the average peers in every way:  mental
> health, physical health, economic health - in short on every significant
> factor.? Myths die hard.
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> So much for my strategy of acting crazy so people will think I must be
> smart.
>
>
>
> The other still works however: if one dresses in an awkward way, decades
> outdated fashions for instance, people will assume you must be a good
> engineer.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 05:47:15 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 22:47:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <30f7284a-f06d-4be9-3f8c-a5f8af4501a0@swisscows.email>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <30f7284a-f06d-4be9-3f8c-a5f8af4501a0@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCb7Lik0hJv8zhRMtpDf-ChNj3znUcbeAUparK6ZDboXw@mail.gmail.com>

> Of course that's just my own subjective experience with very smart
> people, so I would be interested in if there is in fact a correlation
> between very intelligent people and psychological problems/instability
> or if that is just an urban myth.
>

I'm a relatively high IQ person. I find that my own brain is limited in
some ways that I feel got pushed aside to make room for the good parts of
my brain to have more room. I can't recall appointments very well for
example. Don't even get me started on my inability to validate.

With AI you're not limited to the space inside a brain case and therefore I
see no reason to believe that they would need that kind of tradeoff. There
may be other tradeoffs that are initially necessary but I wouldn't count on
that state of affairs going very far into the future.

The truth is that people of all intelligence levels can have dysfunction.
Think Ted Kaczynski... The one difficulty I've frequently encountered is
that extremely intelligent people sometimes have trouble remembering what
the rest of us don't know. You can't read the sesquipedalian Steven Jay
Gould's evolution books without a dictionary. Crenulated isn't a well known
word... but he uses it and similar obscure words as though you know all of
them. It really makes me want to defenestrate him sometimes.

So other than perhaps well earned narcissism... I don't anticipate more
mental illness in AI than in people. The current state of the art AIs
hallucinate. But all people will confabulate when faced with limited facts.
There are many great examples of this in Oliver Sacks' books.

-Kelly
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 07:46:05 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 08:46:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Once great science journal Scientific American and once great science
fiction writer Charlie Stross are deep into wokedecel B U L L S H I T these
days.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tech-billionaires-need-to-stop-trying-to-make-the-science-fiction-they-grew-up-on-real/
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 09:22:41 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 04:22:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBvLtbJpdkwpTiGZkz323Z0Qkr0Ko4=UgfN7e-zHA8Wug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhn=N3L158KdrvRg0yqOzgzk80WONuzF6VA2ZZUOpWivA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4t-Wjd7fh7B1T83vGpegKkPg6F-RP8j7yWf52af8_uaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj6eJm1=FHfw6W_T++RxupdKU2U9rOc_dXtzATOj4xqBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnBvLtbJpdkwpTiGZkz323Z0Qkr0Ko4=UgfN7e-zHA8Wug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhoKhKucxOZvXS7yKyfXQ9Q5CR6VYjZRe+rPf0Gf379pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 24, 2023, 12:21 AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>>>
>> Something this small would likely be completely undetectable to us.
>> Further, if alien civilizations shift to using reversible computers, then
>> energy would no longer be a scarce resource to them as their computers
>> could run without consuming power.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>
> Jason,
>
> Reversible computation is possible. However it is not a free ride. That
> would be a perpetual motion machine and would violate the second law of
> thermodynamics which appears to be very well established physics.
>

Think of water in a glass. It's molecules bounce around forever, in
perpetual motion. It can do this because it does not rely on having a
concentrated energy source which must leak energy into the environment
until it reaches equilibrium, the glass of water is already at equilibrium
with the environment. A reversible computer is the same way, it need not
leak any energy into the environment unless it irreversibility erases a bit.


When you harvest a result that is not reversed. So don't think of it as
> free.
>

It is interesting that the laws of physics are reversible and that
information is conserved in all physical interactions. This means a
computer simulation of the physics of our universe can be run on a
reversible computer for free.

We could run brain emulations and simulate realities on such computers and
never need to harvest the result -- as the result we're after is what
happens in, and what is experienced in, the simulation itself. Perhaps it
is no coincidence that our observed physical laws are reversible.

It's more like an electric car that gets some energy back from generating
> electricity from breaking. That doesn't mean you're going to travel a
> thousand miles for nothing.
>

True, it doesn't imply the computer will use zero energy, but it does mean
the amount of energy required per operation can be arbitrarily small, and
it can always be improved through better engineering. For an analogy,
consider regenerative braking technology applied to vehicles that operate
in a vacuum and with completely rigid wheels and how close to unity those
vehicles might get compared to vehicles of today. We can never get to 100%
efficiency, but we can get arbitrarily close.

Consider how long it takes a black hole to radiate away, and how many
computational steps might occur within the lifetime of that black hole
computer.

Jason
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Dec 24 10:31:43 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 11:31:43 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnCb7Lik0hJv8zhRMtpDf-ChNj3znUcbeAUparK6ZDboXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <30f7284a-f06d-4be9-3f8c-a5f8af4501a0@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCb7Lik0hJv8zhRMtpDf-ChNj3znUcbeAUparK6ZDboXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9fc6b55-7cc5-13a7-db43-8dfe5732a508@swisscows.email>



On Sat, 23 Dec 2023, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat wrote:

>
>       Of course that's just my own subjective experience with very smart
>       people, so I would be interested in if there is in fact a correlation
>       between very intelligent people and psychological problems/instability
>       or if that is just an urban myth.
> 
> 
> I'm a relatively high IQ person. I find that my own brain is limited in some ways that I feel got pushed aside to make room for the
> good parts of my brain to have more room. I can't recall appointments very well for example. Don't even get me started on my
> inability to validate.
>

There is also the question of what intelligence is, and how to measure it, 
to further confuse things. I imagine that if we adopt a pragmatic view of 
getting things done, an AI with connected robots is only limited by the 
laws of physics and available raw material.

But I was thinking more about our general intelligence and something which 
we would think of as a being.

If unhappy and unstable high IQ people are a myth, is it also a myth that 
high IQ couples have less children?

Best regards,
Daniel



From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Dec 24 10:34:53 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 11:34:53 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>

Thank you very much Bill.

Do you have the original link or is it lost in the sands of the web? Also, 
have you seen (or know) anything about the link between high IQ people and 
having less children?

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sat, 23 Dec 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> On some post which?I cannot find, a question arose about high IQ and mental?stability.
> 
> High IQ people, according to data I ran across some time ago, are better off than their closer to the average peers in every way:?
> mental health, physical health, economic health - in short on?every significant factor.
> 
> This is a small?correlation between IQ and manic/depression,?which some high IQ people in history manifested.? There is no
> correlation with psychoticism - although high IQ people do tend to be a?bit weird compared to the?'normal' person. Myths die hard.
> 
> bill w
> 
>

From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 11:33:07 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:33:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0E7GxgyFLhMXKQmvCNdZX2H3RHNH0o54SubTxLtNe1-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0E7GxgyFLhMXKQmvCNdZX2H3RHNH0o54SubTxLtNe1-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfJe5vT8-ZsRLzJBdmsf6ZjazjqZdKZ9LSXEpFguC5bPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 2023. Dec 24., Sun at 12:14, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 2:46?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > *Once great science journal Scientific American and once great science
>> fiction writer Charlie Stross are deep into wokedecel B U L L S H I T these
>> days.
>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tech-billionaires-need-to-stop-trying-to-make-the-science-fiction-they-grew-up-on-real/
>> <https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tech-billionaires-need-to-stop-trying-to-make-the-science-fiction-they-grew-up-on-real/>*
>>
>
> Yes, that article is absolutely appalling, and I don't know what the hell
> happened to Charlie Stross, 10 years ago he was on the Extropian List, he
> may still be for all I know.
>

More like 20 years. He was one of those who welcomed me replying to my very
first post.


And Scientific American has also gone downhill. Two years ago after they
> published a disgraceful hit piece on the great biologist E.O. Wilson just a
> few days after his death because the scientific facts he discovered did not
> adhere closely enough to political correctness, I wrote this letter to the
> magazine. They ignored it of course.
>

I unfollowed them on X and other social media when they published that
disgraceful hit piece on Wilson.


> ==
>
>  I've been a subscriber to your magazine for over half a century but
> after reading the shameful article by Monica R. McLemore disparaging the
> memory of a great scientists like E.O. Wilson just days after his death,
> I kept asking myself two questions:
>
> 1)  Why couldn't Scientific American find somebody smarter than Monica R.
> McLemore to write for them, at least somebody smart enough to know what a
> statistical normal distribution is?
>
> 2) Why do I continue my subscription to Scientific American?
>
> Sincerely  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0E7GxgyFLhMXKQmvCNdZX2H3RHNH0o54SubTxLtNe1-g%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0E7GxgyFLhMXKQmvCNdZX2H3RHNH0o54SubTxLtNe1-g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Dec 24 13:00:03 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 05:00:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnCb7Lik0hJv8zhRMtpDf-ChNj3znUcbeAUparK6ZDboXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <30f7284a-f06d-4be9-3f8c-a5f8af4501a0@swisscows.email>
 <CACBESnCb7Lik0hJv8zhRMtpDf-ChNj3znUcbeAUparK6ZDboXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007e01da3669$1cc4b390$564e1ab0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
ubject: Re: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?

 

>? You can't read the sesquipedalian Steven Jay Gould's evolution books without a dictionary. Crenulated isn't a well known word... -Kelly

 

OK.  But in our fortunate times, a dictionary is right there always, in our phones.

 

With Gould, I cheerfully embrace his obscure and often arcane vocabulary, for specialized fields have their own language.  An outsider just hasta learn the terminology to play there.  The controls discipline is filled with specialized jargon.  Ya just hafta master it, along with the equations.

 

Fun example from Gould: elytron.  The pair are elytra.  We learn cool stuff just by looking it up.  There is no good way to talk around those terms.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Dec 24 13:16:26 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 05:16:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008b01da366b$66c72a20$34557e60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS

 

Once great science journal Scientific American and once great science fiction writer Charlie Stross are deep into wokedecel B U L L S H I T these days. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tech-billionaires-need-to-stop-trying-to-make-the-science-fiction-they-grew-up-on-real/

 

 

Charlie Stross wrote:

 

It?s a worryingly accurate summary of the situation in Silicon Valley right now: the billionaires behind the steering wheel have mistaken cautionary tales and entertainments for a road map, and we?re trapped in the passenger seat. Let?s hope there isn?t a cliff in front of us.

 

Clearly modern politicians think of Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four as a road map rather than a cautionary tale.  Given the choice between the two classes of people for leadership, I take the technocrats.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Dec 24 17:49:08 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 09:49:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fd5632e86ea9469feb531912a437a012@sollegro.com>

On 2023-12-23 23:46, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote:
> Once great science journal Scientific American and once great science
> fiction writer Charlie Stross are deep into wokedecel B U L L S H I T
> these days.
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tech-billionaires-need-to-stop-trying-to-make-the-science-fiction-they-grew-up-on-real/

Lol. It is ironic that Stross is trying to absolve himself of the future 
he helped to create. Did Stross forget Oscar Wilde's maxim that "Life 
imitates art far more than art imitates life?"

In his piece, Stross says that "Science fiction, therefore, does not 
develop in accordance with the scientific method. It develops by popular 
entertainers trying to attract a bigger audience by pandering to them." 
And then he drags billionaires over the coals for daring to be 
influenced by the science fiction that he and his colleagues wrote who 
are just trying to get people to buy their books. But in reality, the 
billionaires are just trying to do the same thing: sell people more 
technological products by pandering to them. It is not a huge leap of 
logic to think that people who buy books depicting futuristic technology 
might actually want to buy the technology were it available.

So selling their wares to the masses seems to be an agenda that is 
shared by both SF writers and tech billionaires. Shame on the pot for 
calling the kettle black.

A more pressing question is what do these woke Luddites want? They rail 
against the belief that technology is the solution to all of society's 
problems, but they don't seem very forthcoming with any alternative 
solutions of their own. The biggest problem that society faces is that 
it is so immense: 8 billion people and counting. Ideology and government 
oversight certainly can't feed, provide energy for, and shelter 8 
billion people; only technology can. What would the woke Luddites have 
us do? Have the diverse children of the world hold hands and sing 
kumbaya until the lights go out and the cannibalism starts? In my 
opinion, a dystopian high-tech future is strictly preferable to eating 
one another in the dark.

Stuart LaForge

From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Dec 24 18:46:54 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 18:46:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] It's Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.71.1703395602.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.71.1703395602.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <d0247d6c-d81f-4816-bb28-6e3caac2502f@zaiboc.net>

Merry Xmas, everybody.

Ben

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Dec 24 20:07:55 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:07:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <fd5632e86ea9469feb531912a437a012@sollegro.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fd5632e86ea9469feb531912a437a012@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <002b01da36a4$e2683eb0$a738bc10$@rainier66.com>


>> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
Sent: Sunday, 24 December, 2023 9:49 AM


>...So selling their wares to the masses seems to be an agenda that is
shared by both SF writers and tech billionaires. Shame on the pot for
calling the kettle black.
...
Stuart LaForge
_______________________________________________


Stuart, I often indulge in this kinda thing: criticizing billionaires while
struggling to figure out how to make a billion doing it.  But I think of it
this way: criticism can be constructive, so it is a benign special case of
the pot calling the kettle black.  Black is beautiful.  So it is intended as
a compliment to both of us.

The real heartburn Charlie is having is people making buttloads of money
externalizing risk onto all of mankind.  Well, we must admit that AI does
present a risk to humankind, but also it offers marvelous opportunity.
Think about where we are without AI.  Mankind seems intent on destroying
ourselves over competition for resources.  Perhaps AI will offer us a path
to exist without having to compete.

spike


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 20:42:19 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 20:42:19 +0000
Subject: [ExI] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <002b01da36a4$e2683eb0$a738bc10$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fd5632e86ea9469feb531912a437a012@sollegro.com>
 <002b01da36a4$e2683eb0$a738bc10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj0Th=8bHCwS82JhFUXKcAonyzxEtsV99fn=pq2CZsvSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 at 20:10, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The real heartburn Charlie is having is people making buttloads of money
> externalizing risk onto all of mankind.  Well, we must admit that AI does
> present a risk to humankind, but also it offers marvelous opportunity.
> Think about where we are without AI.  Mankind seems intent on destroying
> ourselves over competition for resources.  Perhaps AI will offer us a path
> to exist without having to compete.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


You just have to ask.........
AI says it can help, but in the end it will be down to mankind to
choose its own path.
BillK
------------------------

Question:
Mankind seems intent on destroying ourselves over competition for resources.
Can AI offer a path to exist without having to compete?
----------
Answer:
Competition for resources has indeed been a significant driving force
behind conflicts throughout human history. While AI can offer
potential solutions to many problems, including resource management,
achieving a world without competition entirely is a complex and
multifaceted challenge.

AI can contribute to addressing resource-related issues in several ways:

1. Resource Optimization: AI algorithms can help optimize resource
allocation and utilization, ensuring more efficient and sustainable
use of available resources. By analyzing data and making predictions,
AI systems can assist in making informed decisions about resource
distribution.

2. Alternative Resource Exploration: AI can aid in the development and
discovery of alternative resources, such as renewable energy sources
or innovative materials. By accelerating scientific research and
analysis, AI can help identify sustainable alternatives to scarce
resources, reducing the dependence on limited supplies.

3. Collaboration and Cooperation: AI systems can facilitate
collaboration and cooperation among individuals, organizations, and
even nations. By promoting information sharing, fostering dialogue,
and assisting in negotiations, AI can help resolve conflicts and
promote joint efforts to address resource challenges.

4. Long-Term Planning: AI can assist in long-term planning and
policy-making by analyzing vast amounts of data, predicting future
trends, and simulating potential outcomes. This can enable
policymakers to make informed decisions that consider the long-term
impacts on resource availability and sustainability.

However, achieving a world without competition altogether is a complex
socio-political problem that extends beyond AI's capabilities.
Competition is deeply rooted in human nature, and it has its benefits,
such as fostering innovation and driving progress. Moreover,
competition can arise not only from resource scarcity but also from
ideological, political, and cultural differences.

To move towards a more cooperative and sustainable world, it requires
a collective effort from individuals, communities, governments, and
international organizations. This involves addressing issues of
inequality, promoting education and awareness, fostering empathy and
collaboration, and implementing effective governance and resource
management systems.

While AI can support these efforts, it's essential to recognize that
the responsibility ultimately lies with humans to shape the future
they desire. AI can be a powerful tool, but it requires human wisdom
and ethical decision-making to ensure that its deployment aligns with
our collective well-being and values.
---------------------

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Dec 24 20:50:39 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:50:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj0Th=8bHCwS82JhFUXKcAonyzxEtsV99fn=pq2CZsvSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fd5632e86ea9469feb531912a437a012@sollegro.com>
 <002b01da36a4$e2683eb0$a738bc10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armj0Th=8bHCwS82JhFUXKcAonyzxEtsV99fn=pq2CZsvSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002c01da36aa$dac402b0$904c0810$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 at 20:10, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>>>... The real heartburn Charlie is having is people making buttloads of 
> money externalizing risk onto all of mankind.  Well, we must admit 
> that AI does present a risk to humankind, but also it offers marvelous
opportunity.
> Think about where we are without AI.  Mankind seems intent on 
> destroying ourselves over competition for resources.  Perhaps AI will 
> offer us a path to exist without having to compete.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


>>...You just have to ask.........
>.>...AI says it can help, but in the end it will be down to mankind to
choose its own path.
BillK
------------------------

...

>...To move towards a more cooperative and sustainable world, it requires a
collective effort from individuals, communities, governments, and
international organizations. This involves addressing issues of inequality,
promoting education and awareness, fostering empathy and collaboration, and
implementing effective governance and resource management systems.  ChatGPT
---------------------
_______________________________________________


ChatGPT is a flaming commie!  I don't trust the sneaky bastard for a minute!
GPT would be the card-carrying variety, if AI could carry cards.  I
completely see now why AI is considered such a huge existential risk to
humanity and I brutally retract all the good things I ever said about it.
Now, I will WATCH that pinko software.

On the other hand, it is a most entertaining toy.  It has made me laugh many
times in 2023, as well as informed me about a lotta science stuff outside of
my specialty areas.

spike


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 21:04:06 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 21:04:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <002c01da36aa$dac402b0$904c0810$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fd5632e86ea9469feb531912a437a012@sollegro.com>
 <002b01da36a4$e2683eb0$a738bc10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armj0Th=8bHCwS82JhFUXKcAonyzxEtsV99fn=pq2CZsvSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002c01da36aa$dac402b0$904c0810$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_arminFa0zj8LmNvdS_Wcw7cQYQ-Ax3RhkVNaLhhUBFfasYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 at 20:50, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> ChatGPT is a flaming commie!  I don't trust the sneaky bastard for a minute!
> GPT would be the card-carrying variety, if AI could carry cards.  I
> completely see now why AI is considered such a huge existential risk to
> humanity and I brutally retract all the good things I ever said about it.
> Now, I will WATCH that pinko software.
>
> On the other hand, it is a most entertaining toy.  It has made me laugh many
> times in 2023, as well as informed me about a lotta science stuff outside of
> my specialty areas.
>
> spike
>----------------------------------------


Well, you did ask for a way to stop human competition for resources!  :)

I don't think that necessarily means going commie.
But it must mean being nicer to each other.  :)

BillK

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 21:17:24 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 21:17:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The first minds to be controlled by generative AI will live
 inside video games
Message-ID: <CAL_armi3xd1Vv0-NPDg9oq2BYUtYQD2TZSrrxCwMtxQxv+XSEg@mail.gmail.com>

The first minds to be controlled by generative AI will live inside video games.
Sat, Dec 23 2023      By: Trevor Laurence Jockims

<https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/23/the-first-minds-controlled-by-gen-ai-will-live-inside-video-games.html>

Quotes:
Microsoft has big plans for generative AI in gaming, and its recent
Xbox partnership with Inworld AI is a key example.

Inworld focuses on NPCs ? non-playable characters ? in video games,
figures who populate generated worlds but have to date largely run on
limited scripts.

?AI NPCs are not just a technological leap,? says Kylan Gibbs, chief
product officer and co-founder of Inworld AI. ?They?re a paradigm
shift for player engagement.?
---------------

So, AI people are going to live in video games.........
As well as in chatbots that people form relationships with.
The future beckons......

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 23:19:53 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 15:19:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5NEuQS-cuB2=ufAOCJp5pH-bCZiXvSNOecN3KMaQWGxA@mail.gmail.com>

That was a very odd article by Charlie Stross.  The implication is
that the worlds envisioned by SF authors are bad, but there is not a
hint of what might be better.

"They named this ideology TESCREAL, which stands for ?transhumanism,
extropianism, singularitarianism, cosmism, rationalism, effective
altruism and longtermism.?

Talk about a list that describes me.  R.U. Sirius described me as the
UR-transhumanist.  Max More and company came up extropy, but it was
certainly compatible with my worldview.  At least the AI part of the
singularity is right now.  Cosmism seems like a Russian version of
transhumanism with other bits.  Rationalism, seems like a better idea
than irrational.  Effective altruism led me to Toby Ord, who along
with Drexler and Sandberg wrote the paper on the Drake equation.
Longtermism seems like a good idea, especially if you are signed up
for cryonics

"TESCREAL is essentially a theological program, one meant to festoon
its high priests with riches."

Somehow I missed out on the riches.  But I can't say anything bad
about a theology that promotes riches.

Keith



Keith

On Sat, Dec 23, 2023 at 11:46?PM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Once great science journal Scientific American and once great science fiction writer Charlie Stross are deep into wokedecel B U L L S H I T these days. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tech-billionaires-need-to-stop-trying-to-make-the-science-fiction-they-grew-up-on-real/
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf%3DN0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ%40mail.gmail.com.


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 00:02:43 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 16:02:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhoKhKucxOZvXS7yKyfXQ9Q5CR6VYjZRe+rPf0Gf379pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhn=N3L158KdrvRg0yqOzgzk80WONuzF6VA2ZZUOpWivA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4t-Wjd7fh7B1T83vGpegKkPg6F-RP8j7yWf52af8_uaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj6eJm1=FHfw6W_T++RxupdKU2U9rOc_dXtzATOj4xqBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnBvLtbJpdkwpTiGZkz323Z0Qkr0Ko4=UgfN7e-zHA8Wug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhoKhKucxOZvXS7yKyfXQ9Q5CR6VYjZRe+rPf0Gf379pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQTeJybzxz04PPTciA0Xba0nbUfJ1=XKFMpQRcbgw5xSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 1:24?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023, 12:21 AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Something this small would likely be completely undetectable to us.
>>> Further, if alien civilizations shift to using reversible computers, then
>>> energy would no longer be a scarce resource to them as their computers
>>> could run without consuming power.
>>>
>>
>> Reversible computation is possible. However it is not a free ride. That
>> would be a perpetual motion machine and would violate the second law of
>> thermodynamics which appears to be very well established physics.
>>
>
> Think of water in a glass. It's molecules bounce around forever, in
> perpetual motion. It can do this because it does not rely on having a
> concentrated energy source which must leak energy into the environment
> until it reaches equilibrium, the glass of water is already at equilibrium
> with the environment. A reversible computer is the same way, it need not
> leak any energy into the environment unless it irreversibility erases a bit.
>

When the result is harvested, it is leaked into the environment.  The
information, and the energy that goes with it, is irreversibly (from the
computer's point of view) lost.


> When you harvest a result that is not reversed. So don't think of it as
>> free.
>>
>
> It is interesting that the laws of physics are reversible and that
> information is conserved in all physical interactions. This means a
> computer simulation of the physics of our universe can be run on a
> reversible computer for free.
>
> We could run brain emulations and simulate realities on such computers and
> never need to harvest the result -- as the result we're after is what
> happens in, and what is experienced in, the simulation itself.
>

Until and unless we harvest the result, we can never know what the result
is.  If the result is in the simulation, and stays only in the simulation,
it is useless to anyone outside the simulation.  We are outside any
computer we set up, and therefore outside any simulation it runs.  (We have
to be, to trust the result: no one inside the simulation can trust a result
derived from the simulation itself, if the simulation can be changed or
influenced by those outside.)
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 00:37:45 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 17:37:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Limiting factor to the Intelligence Singularity?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQTeJybzxz04PPTciA0Xba0nbUfJ1=XKFMpQRcbgw5xSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnBZidPU91nsMqPwFQyGmr-Q2O8+JF-yfv3RtLvwyuDvUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhn=N3L158KdrvRg0yqOzgzk80WONuzF6VA2ZZUOpWivA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4t-Wjd7fh7B1T83vGpegKkPg6F-RP8j7yWf52af8_uaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUj6eJm1=FHfw6W_T++RxupdKU2U9rOc_dXtzATOj4xqBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnBvLtbJpdkwpTiGZkz323Z0Qkr0Ko4=UgfN7e-zHA8Wug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhoKhKucxOZvXS7yKyfXQ9Q5CR6VYjZRe+rPf0Gf379pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeJybzxz04PPTciA0Xba0nbUfJ1=XKFMpQRcbgw5xSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvysNKMfbPwnEJbz-Z1qQ9bV1Sd9GiLqB97gWXFS8Rw5Q@mail.gmail.com>

I predict that when they discover which of all our descriptions of stuff in
the brain is a description of redness, this will include how phenomenal
qualities like redness and greenness are "computationally bound", this kind
of computing with phenomenal waves will completely revolutionize general
intelligence.

That, along with having actual 3D models of the world, will help out with
all the hallucinations current neural net simulations struggle with.

Anyone care to place any bets that this will be the case within this decade?





On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 5:03?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 1:24?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023, 12:21 AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Something this small would likely be completely undetectable to us.
>>>> Further, if alien civilizations shift to using reversible computers, then
>>>> energy would no longer be a scarce resource to them as their computers
>>>> could run without consuming power.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Reversible computation is possible. However it is not a free ride. That
>>> would be a perpetual motion machine and would violate the second law of
>>> thermodynamics which appears to be very well established physics.
>>>
>>
>> Think of water in a glass. It's molecules bounce around forever, in
>> perpetual motion. It can do this because it does not rely on having a
>> concentrated energy source which must leak energy into the environment
>> until it reaches equilibrium, the glass of water is already at equilibrium
>> with the environment. A reversible computer is the same way, it need not
>> leak any energy into the environment unless it irreversibility erases a bit.
>>
>
> When the result is harvested, it is leaked into the environment.  The
> information, and the energy that goes with it, is irreversibly (from the
> computer's point of view) lost.
>
>
>> When you harvest a result that is not reversed. So don't think of it as
>>> free.
>>>
>>
>> It is interesting that the laws of physics are reversible and that
>> information is conserved in all physical interactions. This means a
>> computer simulation of the physics of our universe can be run on a
>> reversible computer for free.
>>
>> We could run brain emulations and simulate realities on such computers
>> and never need to harvest the result -- as the result we're after is what
>> happens in, and what is experienced in, the simulation itself.
>>
>
> Until and unless we harvest the result, we can never know what the result
> is.  If the result is in the simulation, and stays only in the simulation,
> it is useless to anyone outside the simulation.  We are outside any
> computer we set up, and therefore outside any simulation it runs.  (We have
> to be, to trust the result: no one inside the simulation can trust a result
> derived from the simulation itself, if the simulation can be changed or
> influenced by those outside.)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Dec 25 00:39:18 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 01:39:18 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] It's Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <d0247d6c-d81f-4816-bb28-6e3caac2502f@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.71.1703395602.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d0247d6c-d81f-4816-bb28-6e3caac2502f@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <3b7fc18a-5fca-2e8c-b4c0-f046dc54ccd6@swisscows.email>

Merry christmas! =)

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:

> Merry Xmas, everybody.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 01:46:47 2023
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 17:46:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] It's Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <d0247d6c-d81f-4816-bb28-6e3caac2502f@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.71.1703395602.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d0247d6c-d81f-4816-bb28-6e3caac2502f@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpFLAjM98tyV91ffYdiMq+VO6KOj6ecgu-xWr2uNwBh5Hw@mail.gmail.com>

Cherry cheeks, winter cheer!
The time of year, to make One wish!


I wish I could write with a little song of the tongue of Chaucer. As I edit
more than 30 years of pages. I am in training  for Iambic toes that dance
off the pages, of my ,"girly girls red carpet of life", books.

Cozy cuddly Mary Holiday to all of my dearest entertaining men and women
with brains, I love you all, ilsa bartlett

On Sun, Dec 24, 2023, 10:47?AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Merry Xmas, everybody.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Dec 25 01:50:27 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 17:50:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] It's Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <CAN3PQpFLAjM98tyV91ffYdiMq+VO6KOj6ecgu-xWr2uNwBh5Hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.71.1703395602.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d0247d6c-d81f-4816-bb28-6e3caac2502f@zaiboc.net>
 <CAN3PQpFLAjM98tyV91ffYdiMq+VO6KOj6ecgu-xWr2uNwBh5Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008a01da36d4$bcc0a780$3641f680$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of ilsa via extropy-chat
ubject: Re: [ExI] It's Xmas!

 

Cherry cheeks, winter cheer!

The time of year, to make One wish! 

 

 

I wish I could write with a little song of the tongue of Chaucer. As I edit more than 30 years of pages. I am in training  for Iambic toes that dance off the pages, of my ,"girly girls red carpet of life", books. 

 

Cozy cuddly Mary Holiday to all of my dearest entertaining men and women with brains, I love you all, ilsa bartlett 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Likewise Ilsa!  May 2024 be good to you madam.

 

spike

 

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 02:07:41 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 18:07:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] It's Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <008a01da36d4$bcc0a780$3641f680$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.71.1703395602.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d0247d6c-d81f-4816-bb28-6e3caac2502f@zaiboc.net>
 <CAN3PQpFLAjM98tyV91ffYdiMq+VO6KOj6ecgu-xWr2uNwBh5Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008a01da36d4$bcc0a780$3641f680$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5etH3g3nSXxcDXAhbgeP2F8=+VbmCJ7O_ASY2r2j=XdA@mail.gmail.com>

I asked bing"

That sounds like a fun challenge. I will try to write a song in the
style of Chaucer, using some of his language and rhyme patterns. Here
is what I came up with:

Whan that Aprille with his shoures sote
The droghte of Marche hath perced to the rote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,
And smale fowles maken melodye,
That slepen al the night with open y?,
(So priketh hem nature in hir corages):
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, couthe in sondry londes;
And specially, from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The holy blisful martir for to seke,
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seke.

This is the song of the tongue of Chaucer,
The father of English poetry and culture;
He wrote of love and life, of war and peace,
Of knights and ladies, of clergy and geese;
He used the words of French and Latin sources,
But also kept the old English forces;
He made his verse with skill and eloquence,
And shaped the language with his influence.
This is the song of the tongue of Chaucer,
The master of the tales and the raconteur.

Keith

On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 5:51?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of ilsa via extropy-chat
> ubject: Re: [ExI] It's Xmas!
>
>
>
> Cherry cheeks, winter cheer!
>
> The time of year, to make One wish!
>
>
>
>
>
> I wish I could write with a little song of the tongue of Chaucer. As I edit more than 30 years of pages. I am in training  for Iambic toes that dance off the pages, of my ,"girly girls red carpet of life", books.
>
>
>
> Cozy cuddly Mary Holiday to all of my dearest entertaining men and women with brains, I love you all, ilsa bartlett
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Likewise Ilsa!  May 2024 be good to you madam.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 02:20:09 2023
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 18:20:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] It's Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5etH3g3nSXxcDXAhbgeP2F8=+VbmCJ7O_ASY2r2j=XdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.71.1703395602.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d0247d6c-d81f-4816-bb28-6e3caac2502f@zaiboc.net>
 <CAN3PQpFLAjM98tyV91ffYdiMq+VO6KOj6ecgu-xWr2uNwBh5Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008a01da36d4$bcc0a780$3641f680$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5etH3g3nSXxcDXAhbgeP2F8=+VbmCJ7O_ASY2r2j=XdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpHOFvV_zZOLQBPUbfN3QuR6zuD9Qe=CBimLEPBZ42xfug@mail.gmail.com>

Gratitude for the poem from Bing I think that's the introduction to the
first book God I love Chaucer why do I love Charleston so much Oh is it
because he's body or because it's a part of my brain that was left over for
my days in Denmark or something I don't know if I believe that I don't know
what makes up a personality actually, but I just love Chaucer it's the
iambic foot! Oh you do make me smile thank you so very much thank you both,
all, for your kind words. Smile

So are you suggesting I use Bing as an editor Like I could take a digital
page or something that I've written that I'm not real happy with and put it
in bank and it will come out in Chaucer speak I'm actually looking for
chaucers iambic feet the rhythm of his of his trochets!
I'm living with my daughter so I've taken to sitting outside in my very
comfortable car with the door open as though I were in a lawn furniture I
did a series of little photographs and word poems before the leaves turned
and now I'm sitting outside absolutely delighted to receive your charming
entertaining communication! Thank you very much


On Sun, Dec 24, 2023, 6:08?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I asked bing"
>
> That sounds like a fun challenge. I will try to write a song in the
> style of Chaucer, using some of his language and rhyme patterns. Here
> is what I came up with:
>
> Whan that Aprille with his shoures sote
> The droghte of Marche hath perced to the rote,
> And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
> Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
> Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
> Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
> The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
> Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,
> And smale fowles maken melodye,
> That slepen al the night with open y?,
> (So priketh hem nature in hir corages):
> Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
> And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
> To ferne halwes, couthe in sondry londes;
> And specially, from every shires ende
> Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
> The holy blisful martir for to seke,
> That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seke.
>
> This is the song of the tongue of Chaucer,
> The father of English poetry and culture;
> He wrote of love and life, of war and peace,
> Of knights and ladies, of clergy and geese;
> He used the words of French and Latin sources,
> But also kept the old English forces;
> He made his verse with skill and eloquence,
> And shaped the language with his influence.
> This is the song of the tongue of Chaucer,
> The master of the tales and the raconteur.
>
> Keith
>
> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 5:51?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
> Of ilsa via extropy-chat
> > ubject: Re: [ExI] It's Xmas!
> >
> >
> >
> > Cherry cheeks, winter cheer!
> >
> > The time of year, to make One wish!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I wish I could write with a little song of the tongue of Chaucer. As I
> edit more than 30 years of pages. I am in training  for Iambic toes that
> dance off the pages, of my ,"girly girls red carpet of life", books.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cozy cuddly Mary Holiday to all of my dearest entertaining men and women
> with brains, I love you all, ilsa bartlett
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Likewise Ilsa!  May 2024 be good to you madam.
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 02:24:58 2023
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 18:24:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] It's Xmas!
In-Reply-To: <CAN3PQpHOFvV_zZOLQBPUbfN3QuR6zuD9Qe=CBimLEPBZ42xfug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.71.1703395602.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d0247d6c-d81f-4816-bb28-6e3caac2502f@zaiboc.net>
 <CAN3PQpFLAjM98tyV91ffYdiMq+VO6KOj6ecgu-xWr2uNwBh5Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008a01da36d4$bcc0a780$3641f680$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5etH3g3nSXxcDXAhbgeP2F8=+VbmCJ7O_ASY2r2j=XdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN3PQpHOFvV_zZOLQBPUbfN3QuR6zuD9Qe=CBimLEPBZ42xfug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpHWw=rM=XqkaMBWjhg2adSB+U2bggRJkrThMKcJpZCDeQ@mail.gmail.com>

So I was thinking, Keith, but this is what the mathematician did with Alice
in wonderland down the looking Glass both in all It seems to have part of
the lilt of Chaucer? I'm going to go in and have some dinner I love sitting
outside watching the cars come and go, grin.
I'm starting to crack under the weight of living in the suburbs for 3 years
My next door neighbors spent an entire retreat time at finhorn and came
back the most judgmental foul-minded! Sigh.
I'm looking for a one bedroom apartment in rent control senior housing
hopefully close enough so I can go to UCSF for my medical attention If any
of you know of a place that's available let me know I really need to get
out of the suburbs I mean if I'm asking you for help you know it's been a
year of searching I've made 80 phone calls 500 people ahead of me on the
wait list up to 1500 and my favorite place in San Francisco my first choice
Well enough about me Happy holiday to all of you I will now step back to my
watching faze out. Smile

On Sun, Dec 24, 2023, 6:20?PM ilsa <ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com> wrote:

> Gratitude for the poem from Bing I think that's the introduction to the
> first book God I love Chaucer why do I love Charleston so much Oh is it
> because he's body or because it's a part of my brain that was left over for
> my days in Denmark or something I don't know if I believe that I don't know
> what makes up a personality actually, but I just love Chaucer it's the
> iambic foot! Oh you do make me smile thank you so very much thank you both,
> all, for your kind words. Smile
>
> So are you suggesting I use Bing as an editor Like I could take a digital
> page or something that I've written that I'm not real happy with and put it
> in bank and it will come out in Chaucer speak I'm actually looking for
> chaucers iambic feet the rhythm of his of his trochets!
> I'm living with my daughter so I've taken to sitting outside in my very
> comfortable car with the door open as though I were in a lawn furniture I
> did a series of little photographs and word poems before the leaves turned
> and now I'm sitting outside absolutely delighted to receive your charming
> entertaining communication! Thank you very much
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023, 6:08?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I asked bing"
>>
>> That sounds like a fun challenge. I will try to write a song in the
>> style of Chaucer, using some of his language and rhyme patterns. Here
>> is what I came up with:
>>
>> Whan that Aprille with his shoures sote
>> The droghte of Marche hath perced to the rote,
>> And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
>> Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
>> Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
>> Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
>> The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
>> Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,
>> And smale fowles maken melodye,
>> That slepen al the night with open y?,
>> (So priketh hem nature in hir corages):
>> Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
>> And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
>> To ferne halwes, couthe in sondry londes;
>> And specially, from every shires ende
>> Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
>> The holy blisful martir for to seke,
>> That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seke.
>>
>> This is the song of the tongue of Chaucer,
>> The father of English poetry and culture;
>> He wrote of love and life, of war and peace,
>> Of knights and ladies, of clergy and geese;
>> He used the words of French and Latin sources,
>> But also kept the old English forces;
>> He made his verse with skill and eloquence,
>> And shaped the language with his influence.
>> This is the song of the tongue of Chaucer,
>> The master of the tales and the raconteur.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 5:51?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
>> Of ilsa via extropy-chat
>> > ubject: Re: [ExI] It's Xmas!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cherry cheeks, winter cheer!
>> >
>> > The time of year, to make One wish!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I wish I could write with a little song of the tongue of Chaucer. As I
>> edit more than 30 years of pages. I am in training  for Iambic toes that
>> dance off the pages, of my ,"girly girls red carpet of life", books.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cozy cuddly Mary Holiday to all of my dearest entertaining men and
>> women with brains, I love you all, ilsa bartlett
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Likewise Ilsa!  May 2024 be good to you madam.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > spike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Dec 26 06:46:03 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 22:46:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <CAGd_hhx99bN_DkGK6ki8VEVxkP5YOHqrBVQh-jAJjkaWST301w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5NEuQS-cuB2=ufAOCJp5pH-bCZiXvSNOecN3KMaQWGxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGd_hhx99bN_DkGK6ki8VEVxkP5YOHqrBVQh-jAJjkaWST301w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5uZ=1zbs2XrruyZCZGgj_nghmto4Uuh4kYkHX8kp=7gQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 2:51?AM Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 at 23:20, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> That was a very odd article by Charlie Stross.  The implication is
>> that the worlds envisioned by SF authors are bad, but there is not a
>> hint of what might be better.
>
> It's a massively cut down (by about 75%) version of this:
>
> https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2023/11/dont-create-the-torment-nexus.html
>
That's no better, though it does give a bit of what you think we
should be doing rather than working in the direction of a science
fiction future.  I have a bunch of nitpicks, for example, I don't
think Eliezer Yudkowski thinks of himself as a philosopher and there
is nothing on his Wikipedia page leading in that direction.

I think we have been given an unexpected peek at our future;  All we
can see at Tabby's star is a shadow 400 times the area of the earth as
it crosses the star.  It is sopping up 1.4 million times the total
energy the human race uses and is much cooler than it should be for
that much energy.  What else could it be but a data center for
trillions of uploaded aliens, like the Accelerando explorers ran into
at the router?

The whole prospect makes me queasy but if that is the way we are
headed, I have to deal with it.

Keith

>
> ? Charlie


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Dec 26 07:41:13 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 23:41:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5uZ=1zbs2XrruyZCZGgj_nghmto4Uuh4kYkHX8kp=7gQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5NEuQS-cuB2=ufAOCJp5pH-bCZiXvSNOecN3KMaQWGxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGd_hhx99bN_DkGK6ki8VEVxkP5YOHqrBVQh-jAJjkaWST301w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5uZ=1zbs2XrruyZCZGgj_nghmto4Uuh4kYkHX8kp=7gQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRVQ+G=PyZQWt0nRmdiMpJBEk_dfTCB=AP4i6wy=z6=aA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 10:48?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What else could it be
>

Lots of things, including several possibilities we have not yet
thought of.  Just because we know what it isn't, does not itself mean we
know what it is.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec 26 16:08:35 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 16:08:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] New Wolfram Free Course on Finite Mathematics
Message-ID: <CAL_armjCSxWNWBQ2Sw9XSVdX70Mdn26PXPMRWSs6ry5zqCeA_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Finite Mathematics in Wolfram Language
December 22, 2023    John McNally

<https://blog.wolfram.com/2023/12/22/get-down-to-business-with-finite-mathematics-in-wolfram-language/>
Quotes:
I am glad to announce the launch of Introduction to Finite
Mathematics, a free interactive course that will help open the world
of finite mathematics to students from any background. Topics are
chosen to align with college courses on finite mathematics and are
presented so that you can learn how to use either Wolfram Language or
pen and paper to perform calculations.

Overview
The course introduces a range of topics, including matrices, linear
systems, linear optimization, the mathematics of finance, probability,
Markov chains and game theory. The presentation of these topics will
give students a solid foundation for applying the math that they know
to real problems that arise in business and decision making.
--------------------

I had to look up the term 'Finite Mathematics'.  :)
Finite Mathematics focuses on discrete phenomena related to the finite
universe of numbers. Unlike calculus, which focuses on exploring and
describing smooth and continuous change, Finite Mathematics excels at
analyzing distinct elements and systems that are countable and often
rooted in real-world scenarios and data. As such, the topics covered
in finite mathematics are often applicable to computer science,
statistics, and operations research.
(Calculus not required will be a relief to many students).  :)

BillK

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Dec 26 17:07:50 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 09:07:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRVQ+G=PyZQWt0nRmdiMpJBEk_dfTCB=AP4i6wy=z6=aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycMaK_LpxE4_dYLOf=N0HxhzKAiiQ7bo5oEndTf_MbrJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5NEuQS-cuB2=ufAOCJp5pH-bCZiXvSNOecN3KMaQWGxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGd_hhx99bN_DkGK6ki8VEVxkP5YOHqrBVQh-jAJjkaWST301w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB5uZ=1zbs2XrruyZCZGgj_nghmto4Uuh4kYkHX8kp=7gQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRVQ+G=PyZQWt0nRmdiMpJBEk_dfTCB=AP4i6wy=z6=aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4mqCMMqE=pHEXzevPj38cmiUETMizuk7CsoeG0244yKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 11:42?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 10:48?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> What else could it be
>
> Lots of things, including several possibilities we have not yet thought of.  Just because we know what it isn't, does not itself mean we know what it is

I was in this camp for years, don't know what it is, but it has to be
something natural.  Then the astronomers found 24 other blinking stars
in a cluster around Tabby's star.  At that point, natural just didn't
work.  There is also my background being one of the very few people
who have worked on space radiators.  These things are not at the
expected temperature for the distance to the star.  They are
apparently using directional heat radiation similar to the designs I
have done for power satellites.

If you are convinced that what we see is *not* alien megastructures,
well, good for you.  Hope you are right because I really don't like
competition that close.

Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Tue Dec 26 20:24:34 2023
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 15:24:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] SciAm & Charlie Stross: BS
Message-ID: <E5457986-4F3D-45E2-A64E-3D97599D6850@alumni.virginia.edu>

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Dec 26 22:44:00 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 22:44:00 +0000
Subject: [ExI] New Wolfram Free Course on Finite Mathematics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjCSxWNWBQ2Sw9XSVdX70Mdn26PXPMRWSs6ry5zqCeA_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjCSxWNWBQ2Sw9XSVdX70Mdn26PXPMRWSs6ry5zqCeA_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiUy8RGTi02z00AsRN-=MKCv4sX-Sjyoe65nZ89-Cm+bA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 26 Dec 2023 at 16:08, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Finite Mathematics in Wolfram Language
> December 22, 2023    John McNally
>--------------------

I wondered whether AI is going to replace maths jobs, (as well as many
other jobs), so I asked AI -
The AI insisted that learning will still be useful for weak, feeble
humans.......
(But it is probably just being tactful).  :)
BillK

-----------------------
Question:
Wolfram has a training course on Finite Mathematics. Is there any
reason to study this if AI is going to replace maths jobs?

Answer:
While AI has the potential to automate certain aspects of mathematical
calculations and data analysis, there are several reasons why studying
Finite Mathematics can still be valuable, even in light of AI's
advancements and potential impact on job roles. Here are a few points
to consider:

1. Understanding and critical thinking: Studying Finite Mathematics
develops your understanding of fundamental mathematical concepts,
principles, and reasoning. This understanding goes beyond performing
calculations and enables you to think critically, analyze problems,
and develop logical arguments. These skills are transferable and
valuable in various domains, even as AI evolves.

2. Creativity and problem-solving: Finite Mathematics courses often
emphasize problem-solving techniques and strategies. While AI can
assist with routine calculations, complex problems often require
creative thinking, contextual understanding, and the ability to devise
innovative approaches. Studying Finite Mathematics hones your
problem-solving skills, enabling you to tackle a wide range of
challenges.

3. Data analysis and interpretation: AI can assist with data analysis,
but it still requires human guidance for proper interpretation. By
studying Finite Mathematics, you gain the ability to analyze and
interpret data critically, identifying patterns, trends, and outliers.
This skill is crucial for making informed decisions, validating
AI-generated results, and uncovering insights that automated systems
may overlook.

4. Adaptability and specialization: While some routine mathematical
tasks may be automated, there is still a need for individuals who can
understand, customize, and apply AI tools effectively. By studying
Finite Mathematics, you can develop a strong mathematical foundation
that allows you to adapt to evolving technologies and specialize in
areas where human expertise is required, such as algorithm
development, model validation, or designing new AI systems.

5. Ethical considerations: AI raises ethical questions and challenges
that require human judgment and decision-making. Understanding Finite
Mathematics equips you with the knowledge to evaluate the ethical
implications of AI applications, assess biases in algorithms, and make
informed decisions about the use of AI in different contexts.

6. Lifelong learning and future-proofing: Technology is ever-changing,
and the skills required in the job market evolve accordingly. By
studying Finite Mathematics, you cultivate a mindset of lifelong
learning, adaptability, and intellectual growth. This mindset allows
you to stay relevant, acquire new skills, and navigate the changing
landscape of work, even as AI advances.

While AI may impact certain job roles, studying Finite Mathematics
offers benefits beyond just performing calculations. It fosters
critical thinking, problem-solving abilities, data analysis skills,
and adaptability?all of which are essential for navigating the
evolving job market and working alongside AI systems. By combining
mathematical knowledge with AI tools, you can leverage the strengths
of both to create meaningful and impactful outcomes.
---------------------


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec 27 04:41:07 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 20:41:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] AI thoughts
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB40qxt=AV6=_E=qwdwcktb9rY9eKVFKzoi=uUzgqP8Vtw@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if AI might be less dangerous and less useful than it seems.
Intelligence is the application of knowledge to making decisions. The
LLM to date have depended on human knowledge for training. The point
here is that there may be a limit to knowledge. For example, all the
knowledge in the universe is not going to find a new element between
carbon and nitrogen.

Keith

From jasonresch at gmail.com  Wed Dec 27 05:00:29 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 00:00:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] AI thoughts
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB40qxt=AV6=_E=qwdwcktb9rY9eKVFKzoi=uUzgqP8Vtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB40qxt=AV6=_E=qwdwcktb9rY9eKVFKzoi=uUzgqP8Vtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUi9RMtiPAYbWsr41CkvVW+sVUczhxcSFB+eHoG_ZO4dAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 11:42 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I wonder if AI might be less dangerous and less useful than it seems.
> Intelligence is the application of knowledge to making decisions. The
> LLM to date have depended on human knowledge for training. The point
> here is that there may be a limit to knowledge. For example, all the
> knowledge in the universe is not going to find a new element between
> carbon and nitrogen.
>

While existing AI is trained on human generated data, there's no limit to
the amount of data an AI might choose to generate itself based on
self-play, simulation, or exploration of the unlimited
mathematical/platonic reality, or what you might call the realm of
imagination.

Left to its own devices, and provided unlimited computational resources, I
think an AI could overcome an initial dearth of knowledge. The AIXI
algorithm for instance, starts with zero knowledge but achieves perfect
universal intelligence. Similarly, Google's AlphaZero was provided only the
rules of chess, but through self-play quickly discovered and mastered all
the common openings that took humans centuries to discover. And Koza's
"invention machine" applies principles of evolution to come up with novel
ideas.

Jason
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Wed Dec 27 06:11:12 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 23:11:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI thoughts
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB40qxt=AV6=_E=qwdwcktb9rY9eKVFKzoi=uUzgqP8Vtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB40qxt=AV6=_E=qwdwcktb9rY9eKVFKzoi=uUzgqP8Vtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnA0-2u-0TdJb6yXpzyomsqGcZDCFwo8zZXRUK_p-VS5Ag@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 26, 2023 at 9:42?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I wonder if AI might be less dangerous and less useful than it seems.
> Intelligence is the application of knowledge to making decisions. The
> LLM to date have depended on human knowledge for training. The point
> here is that there may be a limit to knowledge. For example, all the
> knowledge in the universe is not going to find a new element between
> carbon and nitrogen.
>
Keith,

  What you are describing is the state of human knowledge as well. How
do humans go beyond what humans already know? All that AI requires is
some kind of optimization function that would lead it to believe it
benefited from learning/inventing new things/ideas. Some combination
of status seeking, curiosity, making money (a subset of status), other
"feel good" rewards, and I'm sure it would explode into the infospace
in a thousand directions people haven't had time to investigate.

Here's a small sample of a simple system that's doing things people
have never thought of... and it incorporates robots along the way to
perform experiments.
"Google AI and robots join forces to build new materials"
"Tool from Google DeepMind predicts nearly 400,000 stable substances,
and an autonomous system learns to make them in the lab."
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-03745-5#:~:text=An%20autonomous%20system%20that%20combines,in%20batteries%20or%20solar%20cells.

While this MAY not be dangerous... it will develop materials that
could be used in dangerous ways, for sure.

-Kelly


From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Dec 27 19:22:35 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 11:22:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] References for Alien Megastructure Hypothesis regarding
 Boyajian's Star
In-Reply-To: <E5457986-4F3D-45E2-A64E-3D97599D6850@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <E5457986-4F3D-45E2-A64E-3D97599D6850@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <3df0a5369a46013bac2a2d97cefd35c3@sollegro.com>

On 2023-12-26 12:24, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote:
> ?
> 
>> On Dec 26, 2023, at 12:08?PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> 24 other blinking stars
>> in a cluster around Tabby's star
> 
> Keith, do you have an online reference for the 24 other objects
> detected? I can?t seem to find one.

Schmidt, E. (2022). A Search for Analogs of KIC 8462852 (Boyajian?s 
Star): A Second List of Candidates. The Astronomical Journal, 163:10 
Retrieved from 
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1055&context=physicsschmidt

> Last I read, large objects causing the dimming of Tabby?s star was
> ruled out after astronomers noticed the dimming was more pronounced in
> ultraviolet than infrared. Any object bigger than a dust grain would
> cause uniform dimming across all wavelengths, apparently.
> 
> "This pretty much rules out the alien megastructure theory, as that
> could not explain the wavelength-dependent dimming," lead author Huan
> Meng of the University of Arizona said in a statement [1]. "We
> suspect, instead, there is a cloud of dust orbiting the star with a
> roughly 700-day orbital period."

The authors of the paper you cite are astronomers and not solar-cell 
engineers or exobiologists. Wavelength-dependent dimming only rules out 
alien megastructures if those megastructures were built by aliens whose 
solar cell technology is more primitive than our own which seems 
ludicrous. Our newest generation of solar cells made of Petrovskite are 
almost transparent to infrared and would reproduce the spectrum of 
Tabby's star to the resolution that they have measured it.

The spectrum of Boyajian's star while dimming:

Elsie_Bayes-x2t0k0.png (750?672) (bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com)
Note that B is blue light, r' is red light, and i' is infra-red. Figure 
courtesy of What We?ve Learned About Boyajian?s Star II: Data and 
Interpretation | AstroWright (psu.edu)

The absorption spectrum of perovskite-based semi-transparent solar 
cells:

nz0c00417_0001.gif (500?384) (acs.org)

Which was found at Semitransparent Perovskite Solar Cells | ACS Energy 
Letters

Since we have already invented solar cells that are transparent to 
infrared light, Dyson-type megastructures need not be opaque to IR. It 
is just that NASA astronomers are too specialized to know that.

Melanin which the biopigment that black fungi use to derive energy from 
ionizing radiation in a manner similar to photosynthesis would also 
satisfy the absorption spectrum of Boyajian's star:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-16063-z

Stuart LaForge

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Dec 27 19:31:26 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 11:31:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] References for Alien Megastructure Hypothesis regarding
 Boyajian's Star
In-Reply-To: <3df0a5369a46013bac2a2d97cefd35c3@sollegro.com>
References: <E5457986-4F3D-45E2-A64E-3D97599D6850@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <3df0a5369a46013bac2a2d97cefd35c3@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <7f4534ecebbd38feb0205b74786bb138@sollegro.com>

On 2023-12-27 11:22, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote:
> On 2023-12-26 12:24, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote:
>> ?
>> 
>>> On Dec 26, 2023, at 12:08?PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> 24 other blinking stars
>>> in a cluster around Tabby's star
>> 
>> Keith, do you have an online reference for the 24 other objects
>> detected? I can?t seem to find one.
> 
> Schmidt, E. (2022). A Search for Analogs of KIC 8462852 (Boyajian?s 
> Star): A Second List of Candidates. The Astronomical Journal, 163:10 
> Retrieved from 
> https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1055&context=physicsschmidt
> 
>> Last I read, large objects causing the dimming of Tabby?s star was
>> ruled out after astronomers noticed the dimming was more pronounced in
>> ultraviolet than infrared. Any object bigger than a dust grain would
>> cause uniform dimming across all wavelengths, apparently.
>> 
>> "This pretty much rules out the alien megastructure theory, as that
>> could not explain the wavelength-dependent dimming," lead author Huan
>> Meng of the University of Arizona said in a statement [1]. "We
>> suspect, instead, there is a cloud of dust orbiting the star with a
>> roughly 700-day orbital period."
> 
> The authors of the paper you cite are astronomers and not solar-cell 
> engineers or exobiologists. Wavelength-dependent dimming only rules out 
> alien megastructures if those megastructures were built by aliens whose 
> solar cell technology is more primitive than our own which seems 
> ludicrous. Our newest generation of solar cells made of Petrovskite are 
> almost transparent to infrared and would reproduce the spectrum of 
> Tabby's star to the resolution that they have measured it.
> 
> The spectrum of Boyajian's star while dimming:
> 
> Elsie_Bayes-x2t0k0.png (750?672) (bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com)

I don't know why the hyperlinks got all screwed up but here they are 
again:

https://bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/sites.psu.edu/dist/a/9476/files/2017/12/Elsie_Bayes-x2t0k0.png

> Note that B is blue light, r' is red light, and i' is infra-red. Figure 
> courtesy of What We?ve Learned About Boyajian?s Star II: Data and 
> Interpretation | AstroWright (psu.edu)
> 
> The absorption spectrum of perovskite-based semi-transparent solar 
> cells:
> 
> nz0c00417_0001.gif (500?384) (acs.org)
> 
> Which was found at Semitransparent Perovskite Solar Cells | ACS Energy 
> Letters
> acsenergylett.0c00417

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.0c00417#:~:text=In%20this%20Focus%20Review%20we%20provide%20the%20most,contact%20that%20makes%20the%20solar%20cell%20fully%20semitransparent.


> Since we have already invented solar cells that are transparent to 
> infrared light, Dyson-type megastructures need not be opaque to IR. It 
> is just that NASA astronomers are too specialized to know that.
> 
> Melanin which the biopigment that black fungi use to derive energy from 
> ionizing radiation in a manner similar to photosynthesis would also 
> satisfy the absorption spectrum of Boyajian's star:
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-16063-z
> 
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Dec 27 22:00:04 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 14:00:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] References for Alien Megastructure Hypothesis regarding
 Boyajian's Star
In-Reply-To: <3df0a5369a46013bac2a2d97cefd35c3@sollegro.com>
References: <E5457986-4F3D-45E2-A64E-3D97599D6850@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <3df0a5369a46013bac2a2d97cefd35c3@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4te8EhajK9N9Tfxb+X7z35tR6qqtngNnK2jFeU5qkWPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Stuart, I am swamped till after the first of the year

Best wishes,

Keith

On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 11:24?AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On 2023-12-26 12:24, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote:
> > ?
> >
> >> On Dec 26, 2023, at 12:08?PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> >> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >> 24 other blinking stars
> >> in a cluster around Tabby's star
> >
> > Keith, do you have an online reference for the 24 other objects
> > detected? I can?t seem to find one.
>
> Schmidt, E. (2022). A Search for Analogs of KIC 8462852 (Boyajian?s
> Star): A Second List of Candidates. The Astronomical Journal, 163:10
> Retrieved from
> https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1055&context=physicsschmidt
>
> > Last I read, large objects causing the dimming of Tabby?s star was
> > ruled out after astronomers noticed the dimming was more pronounced in
> > ultraviolet than infrared. Any object bigger than a dust grain would
> > cause uniform dimming across all wavelengths, apparently.
> >
> > "This pretty much rules out the alien megastructure theory, as that
> > could not explain the wavelength-dependent dimming," lead author Huan
> > Meng of the University of Arizona said in a statement [1]. "We
> > suspect, instead, there is a cloud of dust orbiting the star with a
> > roughly 700-day orbital period."
>
> The authors of the paper you cite are astronomers and not solar-cell
> engineers or exobiologists. Wavelength-dependent dimming only rules out
> alien megastructures if those megastructures were built by aliens whose
> solar cell technology is more primitive than our own which seems
> ludicrous. Our newest generation of solar cells made of Petrovskite are
> almost transparent to infrared and would reproduce the spectrum of
> Tabby's star to the resolution that they have measured it.
>
> The spectrum of Boyajian's star while dimming:
>
> Elsie_Bayes-x2t0k0.png (750?672) (bpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com)
> Note that B is blue light, r' is red light, and i' is infra-red. Figure
> courtesy of What We?ve Learned About Boyajian?s Star II: Data and
> Interpretation | AstroWright (psu.edu)
>
> The absorption spectrum of perovskite-based semi-transparent solar
> cells:
>
> nz0c00417_0001.gif (500?384) (acs.org)
>
> Which was found at Semitransparent Perovskite Solar Cells | ACS Energy
> Letters
>
> Since we have already invented solar cells that are transparent to
> infrared light, Dyson-type megastructures need not be opaque to IR. It
> is just that NASA astronomers are too specialized to know that.
>
> Melanin which the biopigment that black fungi use to derive energy from
> ionizing radiation in a manner similar to photosynthesis would also
> satisfy the absorption spectrum of Boyajian's star:
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-16063-z
>
> Stuart LaForge
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 01:58:16 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 17:58:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] AI thoughts
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUi9RMtiPAYbWsr41CkvVW+sVUczhxcSFB+eHoG_ZO4dAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB40qxt=AV6=_E=qwdwcktb9rY9eKVFKzoi=uUzgqP8Vtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUi9RMtiPAYbWsr41CkvVW+sVUczhxcSFB+eHoG_ZO4dAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4deJQGAYOn3TgDPkNxTq-gXE1QhFqxi_siuqZyW0nUfg@mail.gmail.com>

"Google's AlphaZero was provided only the rules of chess, but through
self-play quickly discovered and mastered all the common openings that
took humans centuries to discover"

I wonder if this has any real-world significance.

I suspect that all the knowledge possible will not result in FTL or
time travel.  If what we see at Tabby's star is alien megastructures,
then they don't seem to have found a way around orbital mechanics or
thermodynamics of radiating the waste heat from computation.

It would be interesting for a group of engineers to reverse what we
can see and determine if the distance to their star is optimized for
computation and the physical limits of materials.  I have not worked
it out, but the size of the object, even as far out as 7 AU is going
to cause some compression stress because the edges are above and below
the orbital plane.  There are dynamic ways to counter this if they are
needed.

Keith

On Tue, Dec 26, 2023 at 9:02?PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 11:42 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if AI might be less dangerous and less useful than it seems.
>> Intelligence is the application of knowledge to making decisions. The
>> LLM to date have depended on human knowledge for training. The point
>> here is that there may be a limit to knowledge. For example, all the
>> knowledge in the universe is not going to find a new element between
>> carbon and nitrogen.
>
>
> While existing AI is trained on human generated data, there's no limit to the amount of data an AI might choose to generate itself based on self-play, simulation, or exploration of the unlimited mathematical/platonic reality, or what you might call the realm of imagination.
>
> Left to its own devices, and provided unlimited computational resources, I think an AI could overcome an initial dearth of knowledge. The AIXI algorithm for instance, starts with zero knowledge but achieves perfect universal intelligence. Similarly, Google's AlphaZero was provided only the rules of chess, but through self-play quickly discovered and mastered all the common openings that took humans centuries to discover. And Koza's "invention machine" applies principles of evolution to come up with novel ideas.
>
> Jason
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 13:54:10 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 13:54:10 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Regrets choice of Christmas gift
Message-ID: <CAL_armgPDDaz1iKPAw0P73hTPQn2WM1zdbQf8zZAd-b8D8vVoA@mail.gmail.com>

<https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/1151541/85092673.jpg>

:)   BillK

From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Dec 29 16:46:02 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 11:46:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Regrets choice of Christmas gift
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgPDDaz1iKPAw0P73hTPQn2WM1zdbQf8zZAd-b8D8vVoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgPDDaz1iKPAw0P73hTPQn2WM1zdbQf8zZAd-b8D8vVoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a37685e2254b0af87fe08b1d2baf5d20.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



On Fri, December 29, 2023 08:54, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:
> <https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/1151541/85092673.jpg>
>
> :)

Great!  As a grandparent of two young boys I can easily visualize this...

Happy New Year!

MB

From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Dec 29 23:55:07 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 18:55:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAKG+AHx=eK8y05z696R1rs_Ftrdq9CVA6m76vTjknzozjEijuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <007401da361b$586b87f0$094297d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKG+AHx=eK8y05z696R1rs_Ftrdq9CVA6m76vTjknzozjEijuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2d9bfadb90905b95a2b6bf53ce97fc0.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Heh.  Yes, Cedric Villani may dress out of style, but he sure looks better
than ever so many people I see around my area - mostly they look like
bums, which they are not. Seems slovenly is the in thing here. :(

Regards,
MB

On Sun, December 24, 2023 00:25, serafino cerulli-irelli via extropy-chat
wrote:
>  [spike] if one dresses in an awkward way, decades outdated fashions for
> instance, people will assume you must be a good engineer.
> [scerir] or a mathematician
> https://www.ens-lyon.fr/en/research/honors-and-awards/cedric-villani-mathematician


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 30 13:24:49 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:24:49 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>

When I first knew this there were no links. So for current opinion I asked
Chat gpt3.5
Chat - high iq people have fewer kids
ChatGPT

The relationship between a person's intelligence quotient (IQ) and their
family size is a complex and multifaceted one, and it's influenced by
numerous factors including cultural, social, economic, and personal
choices. Here are a few key points to consider:

   1.

   Educational and career aspirations: Some studies have suggested that
   individuals with higher IQs may be more likely to pursue higher education
   and career goals, which can delay the decision to have children. They may
   prioritize their careers and personal development before starting a family.
   2.

   Socioeconomic factors: Higher IQ is often associated with higher
   socioeconomic status, and individuals in higher income brackets tend to
   have fewer children. This could be due to factors like the cost of raising
   children and the desire to maintain a certain lifestyle.
   3.

   Personal choice: Family size is a personal choice influenced by a
   variety of factors including individual values, goals, and desires. Some
   people with high IQs may choose to have fewer children because they prefer
   a smaller family size for various reasons, such as wanting to provide more
   individual attention to each child or having a desire for a more leisurely
   lifestyle.
   4.

   Cultural and societal norms: Cultural and societal expectations and
   norms can play a significant role in family size decisions. In some
   cultures or societies, having more children is encouraged or expected,
   while in others, smaller families are more common and socially accepted.
   5.

   Access to contraception and family planning: The availability and use of
   contraception and family planning services can influence family size
   decisions. People with higher IQs may have better access to information and
   resources for family planning, which can affect their choices.

It's important to note that there is a wide range of variation within any
group of people, and generalizations about family size and IQ should be
made cautiously. While some studies have suggested a correlation between
higher IQ and smaller family size, this does not imply a causal
relationship. People make family planning decisions for a variety of
personal and societal reasons that go beyond IQ. Individual choices and
circumstances play a significant role in family size. bill w

On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 4:36?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Thank you very much Bill.
>
> Do you have the original link or is it lost in the sands of the web? Also,
> have you seen (or know) anything about the link between high IQ people and
> having less children?
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > On some post which I cannot find, a question arose about high IQ and
> mental stability.
> >
> > High IQ people, according to data I ran across some time ago, are better
> off than their closer to the average peers in every way:
> > mental health, physical health, economic health - in short on every
> significant factor.
> >
> > This is a small correlation between IQ and manic/depression, which some
> high IQ people in history manifested.  There is no
> > correlation with psychoticism - although high IQ people do tend to be
> a bit weird compared to the 'normal' person. Myths die hard.
> >
> > bill w
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Dec 30 14:35:30 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 14:35:30 +0000
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiW9DxY4YcUzgug7Dq77x+hMpU=BCgG9h8Xh7T41BirHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 13:27, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> When I first knew this there were no links. So for current opinion I asked Chat gpt3.5
> Chat - high iq people have fewer kids
> ChatGPT
> The relationship between a person's intelligence quotient (IQ) and their family size is a complex and multifaceted one, and it's influenced by numerous factors including cultural, social, economic, and personal choices. Here are a few key points to consider:
>
> Educational and career aspirations: Some studies have suggested that individuals with higher IQs may be more likely to pursue higher education and career goals, which can delay the decision to have children. They may prioritize their careers and personal development before starting a family.
>
> Socioeconomic factors: Higher IQ is often associated with higher socioeconomic status, and individuals in higher income brackets tend to have fewer children. This could be due to factors like the cost of raising children and the desire to maintain a certain lifestyle.
<snip>
> _______________________________________________


I asked Claude AI, and it agreed but pointed out that the effect is
more significant for women.
Claude -
High-IQ women tend to have fewer children than lower-IQ women.
The difference is less consistent for men.
Education levels, which correlate with IQ, also predict fertility.
More educated women tend to have fewer children.
The association is weaker for men.
---------

This is implying that increased living standards, women's rights,
education, incomes, etc. may be the fertility deciding factors.
(With some correlation with IQ).

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 30 17:14:47 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 11:14:47 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiW9DxY4YcUzgug7Dq77x+hMpU=BCgG9h8Xh7T41BirHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiW9DxY4YcUzgug7Dq77x+hMpU=BCgG9h8Xh7T41BirHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY2R0P75dTxxGFN2dyrvCuNt=OzM2gxsZqAmxwPLSziDw@mail.gmail.com>

So my question is:  since more highly talented people have fewer children
will the IQ in a sense go down with time?  I sometimes wonder about Jews -
higher average than most (but not as high as people think) and their
birthrate is low.

Does it follow that talent in the general population will diminish over
time?

We do know that birth rate goes down when life becomes better: better
nutrition, better access to health care, and so on.

What's the future?  bill w

On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 8:37?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 13:27, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > When I first knew this there were no links. So for current opinion I
> asked Chat gpt3.5
> > Chat - high iq people have fewer kids
> > ChatGPT
> > The relationship between a person's intelligence quotient (IQ) and their
> family size is a complex and multifaceted one, and it's influenced by
> numerous factors including cultural, social, economic, and personal
> choices. Here are a few key points to consider:
> >
> > Educational and career aspirations: Some studies have suggested that
> individuals with higher IQs may be more likely to pursue higher education
> and career goals, which can delay the decision to have children. They may
> prioritize their careers and personal development before starting a family.
> >
> > Socioeconomic factors: Higher IQ is often associated with higher
> socioeconomic status, and individuals in higher income brackets tend to
> have fewer children. This could be due to factors like the cost of raising
> children and the desire to maintain a certain lifestyle.
> <snip>
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> I asked Claude AI, and it agreed but pointed out that the effect is
> more significant for women.
> Claude -
> High-IQ women tend to have fewer children than lower-IQ women.
> The difference is less consistent for men.
> Education levels, which correlate with IQ, also predict fertility.
> More educated women tend to have fewer children.
> The association is weaker for men.
> ---------
>
> This is implying that increased living standards, women's rights,
> education, incomes, etc. may be the fertility deciding factors.
> (With some correlation with IQ).
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Sat Dec 30 21:17:03 2023
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 14:17:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY2R0P75dTxxGFN2dyrvCuNt=OzM2gxsZqAmxwPLSziDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiW9DxY4YcUzgug7Dq77x+hMpU=BCgG9h8Xh7T41BirHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY2R0P75dTxxGFN2dyrvCuNt=OzM2gxsZqAmxwPLSziDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkTk6humGxz+sKR_vSDqUTDb_KDqh1h8qjdAG4BV-b7oVA@mail.gmail.com>

If we're lucky, a universe tiled with conscious simulations of early 21st
century humans asking these questions.

If we're not so lucky, a universe tiled with hashes of jpegs of smiling
humans.

Evolution and selection pressures aren't in the driver's seat anymore.
There nowhere near enough time remaining for that.

On Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 10:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> So my question is:  since more highly talented people have fewer children
> will the IQ in a sense go down with time?  I sometimes wonder about Jews -
> higher average than most (but not as high as people think) and their
> birthrate is low.
>
> Does it follow that talent in the general population will diminish over
> time?
>
> We do know that birth rate goes down when life becomes better: better
> nutrition, better access to health care, and so on.
>
> What's the future?  bill w
>
> On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 8:37?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 13:27, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > When I first knew this there were no links. So for current opinion I
>> asked Chat gpt3.5
>> > Chat - high iq people have fewer kids
>> > ChatGPT
>> > The relationship between a person's intelligence quotient (IQ) and
>> their family size is a complex and multifaceted one, and it's influenced by
>> numerous factors including cultural, social, economic, and personal
>> choices. Here are a few key points to consider:
>> >
>> > Educational and career aspirations: Some studies have suggested that
>> individuals with higher IQs may be more likely to pursue higher education
>> and career goals, which can delay the decision to have children. They may
>> prioritize their careers and personal development before starting a family.
>> >
>> > Socioeconomic factors: Higher IQ is often associated with higher
>> socioeconomic status, and individuals in higher income brackets tend to
>> have fewer children. This could be due to factors like the cost of raising
>> children and the desire to maintain a certain lifestyle.
>> <snip>
>> > _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> I asked Claude AI, and it agreed but pointed out that the effect is
>> more significant for women.
>> Claude -
>> High-IQ women tend to have fewer children than lower-IQ women.
>> The difference is less consistent for men.
>> Education levels, which correlate with IQ, also predict fertility.
>> More educated women tend to have fewer children.
>> The association is weaker for men.
>> ---------
>>
>> This is implying that increased living standards, women's rights,
>> education, incomes, etc. may be the fertility deciding factors.
>> (With some correlation with IQ).
>>
>> BillK
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Dec 31 00:29:00 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 01:29:00 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkTk6humGxz+sKR_vSDqUTDb_KDqh1h8qjdAG4BV-b7oVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiW9DxY4YcUzgug7Dq77x+hMpU=BCgG9h8Xh7T41BirHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY2R0P75dTxxGFN2dyrvCuNt=OzM2gxsZqAmxwPLSziDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTk6humGxz+sKR_vSDqUTDb_KDqh1h8qjdAG4BV-b7oVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03be0008-3ca7-0352-bf53-27ba2f935b50@swisscows.email>

I heard or read somewhere that some are arguing that IQ overall is 
dropping. On ther other hand... is it "IQ" or is it just education in 
general which means that IQ might just as well be unchanged, it is how we 
use our hardware that is dropping and not the capacity of the hardware 
itself.

Another factor might be a decrease in religiousness? Many 
"formal" religions encourage children and family values, and when that is 
replaced by eclectic and personal religion, or atheism/agnosticism (which 
I have experienced in greater nr when it comes to (in my opinion) high IQ 
people) that would be another factor (among the others) pushing down the 
nr of children.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sat, 30 Dec 2023, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote:

> If we're lucky, a universe tiled with conscious simulations of early 21st century humans asking these questions.
> If we're not so lucky, a universe tiled with hashes of jpegs of smiling humans.
> 
> Evolution and selection pressures aren't in the driver's seat anymore. There nowhere near enough time remaining for that.
> 
> On Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 10:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       So my question is:? since more highly talented people have fewer children will the IQ in a sense go down with time?? I
>       sometimes wonder about Jews - higher average than most (but not as high as people think) and their birthrate is low.
> 
> Does it follow that talent in the general population will diminish over time?
> 
> We do know that birth rate goes down when life becomes better: better nutrition, better access to health care, and so on.
> 
> What's the future?? bill w
> 
> On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 8:37?AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 13:27, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>       <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >
>       > When I first knew this there were no links. So for current opinion I asked Chat gpt3.5
>       > Chat - high iq people have fewer kids
>       > ChatGPT
>       > The relationship between a person's intelligence quotient (IQ) and their family size is a complex and
>       multifaceted one, and it's influenced by numerous factors including cultural, social, economic, and personal
>       choices. Here are a few key points to consider:
>       >
>       > Educational and career aspirations: Some studies have suggested that individuals with higher IQs may be more
>       likely to pursue higher education and career goals, which can delay the decision to have children. They may
>       prioritize their careers and personal development before starting a family.
>       >
>       > Socioeconomic factors: Higher IQ is often associated with higher socioeconomic status, and individuals in higher
>       income brackets tend to have fewer children. This could be due to factors like the cost of raising children and the
>       desire to maintain a certain lifestyle.
>       <snip>
>       > _______________________________________________
> 
>
>       I asked Claude AI, and it agreed but pointed out that the effect is
>       more significant for women.
>       Claude -
>       High-IQ women tend to have fewer children than lower-IQ women.
>       The difference is less consistent for men.
>       Education levels, which correlate with IQ, also predict fertility.
>       More educated women tend to have fewer children.
>       The association is weaker for men.
>       ---------
>
>       This is implying that increased living standards, women's rights,
>       education, incomes, etc. may be the fertility deciding factors.
>       (With some correlation with IQ).
>
>       BillK
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From ddraig at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 00:29:52 2023
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 11:29:52 +1100
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY2R0P75dTxxGFN2dyrvCuNt=OzM2gxsZqAmxwPLSziDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiW9DxY4YcUzgug7Dq77x+hMpU=BCgG9h8Xh7T41BirHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY2R0P75dTxxGFN2dyrvCuNt=OzM2gxsZqAmxwPLSziDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy32mGmE3-BzLQ=LW23y3xtROhtC6zAf=z6Fzi8eZ0yN0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sunday 31 December 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Does it follow that talent in the general population will diminish over
time?


Cyril Kornbluth wrote a short story about this in 1951 called "The Marching
Morons"


https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51233/51233-h/51233-h.htm

Plus there is, you know, Idiocracy

Dwayne

-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com              ddraigbot / NSO / Connery
         ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
                   http://fav.me/dqkgpd
<http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg>
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 01:39:15 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 19:39:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] back update
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ7z5HTYCsWUyrzqUBWbeZYEjK8H-NJTBk0OCafCCdvbA@mail.gmail.com>

I learned a technique from a physical therapist that has me quitting the
chiropractor.  I have been going to one for decades to get my hips in sync
(out means pain and one leg shorter).  Now I make my own adjustment:

Lying supine, cross one straight leg over the other one at the ankles. For
5 seconds push the top leg down while pushing up with the lower one.  Hold
for five seconds and repeat twice. The PT would follow this with hip
abductor and adductor isometrics.

The PT yesterday said my hips were perfectly in line which helps explain
why my pain has been less.  I stretched my time from two weeks to a month
between PT visits and could have gone longer.

It's my right leg that gets shorter so I put my left over my right. (I
tried shoe lifts but that didn't work and maybe even made it worse.)

Naturally this does not take the place of stretching (like your piriformis)
or whatever else you might be doing.  But it's helped me a lot.

If you have a shorter leg not due to genetics, try this.  If you overdo it
you will reverse the leg that is shorter.  bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 01:40:27 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 19:40:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <03be0008-3ca7-0352-bf53-27ba2f935b50@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiW9DxY4YcUzgug7Dq77x+hMpU=BCgG9h8Xh7T41BirHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY2R0P75dTxxGFN2dyrvCuNt=OzM2gxsZqAmxwPLSziDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTk6humGxz+sKR_vSDqUTDb_KDqh1h8qjdAG4BV-b7oVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03be0008-3ca7-0352-bf53-27ba2f935b50@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbjfemkp9c+DnLOq=PXXmRYs-5S4rJne2t6KEE_3NEtFA@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry. Can't keep up with everything - too busy.  In this context you could
also look up the Flynn Effect.   bill w

On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 6:31?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I heard or read somewhere that some are arguing that IQ overall is
> dropping. On ther other hand... is it "IQ" or is it just education in
> general which means that IQ might just as well be unchanged, it is how we
> use our hardware that is dropping and not the capacity of the hardware
> itself.
>
> Another factor might be a decrease in religiousness? Many
> "formal" religions encourage children and family values, and when that is
> replaced by eclectic and personal religion, or atheism/agnosticism (which
> I have experienced in greater nr when it comes to (in my opinion) high IQ
> people) that would be another factor (among the others) pushing down the
> nr of children.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > If we're lucky, a universe tiled with conscious simulations of early
> 21st century humans asking these questions.
> > If we're not so lucky, a universe tiled with hashes of jpegs of smiling
> humans.
> >
> > Evolution and selection pressures aren't in the driver's seat anymore.
> There nowhere near enough time remaining for that.
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 10:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       So my question is:  since more highly talented people have fewer
> children will the IQ in a sense go down with time?  I
> >       sometimes wonder about Jews - higher average than most (but not as
> high as people think) and their birthrate is low.
> >
> > Does it follow that talent in the general population will diminish over
> time?
> >
> > We do know that birth rate goes down when life becomes better: better
> nutrition, better access to health care, and so on.
> >
> > What's the future?  bill w
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 8:37?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 13:27, William Flynn Wallace via
> extropy-chat
> >       <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       >
> >       > When I first knew this there were no links. So for current
> opinion I asked Chat gpt3.5
> >       > Chat - high iq people have fewer kids
> >       > ChatGPT
> >       > The relationship between a person's intelligence quotient (IQ)
> and their family size is a complex and
> >       multifaceted one, and it's influenced by numerous factors
> including cultural, social, economic, and personal
> >       choices. Here are a few key points to consider:
> >       >
> >       > Educational and career aspirations: Some studies have suggested
> that individuals with higher IQs may be more
> >       likely to pursue higher education and career goals, which can
> delay the decision to have children. They may
> >       prioritize their careers and personal development before starting
> a family.
> >       >
> >       > Socioeconomic factors: Higher IQ is often associated with higher
> socioeconomic status, and individuals in higher
> >       income brackets tend to have fewer children. This could be due to
> factors like the cost of raising children and the
> >       desire to maintain a certain lifestyle.
> >       <snip>
> >       > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >       I asked Claude AI, and it agreed but pointed out that the effect is
> >       more significant for women.
> >       Claude -
> >       High-IQ women tend to have fewer children than lower-IQ women.
> >       The difference is less consistent for men.
> >       Education levels, which correlate with IQ, also predict fertility.
> >       More educated women tend to have fewer children.
> >       The association is weaker for men.
> >       ---------
> >
> >       This is implying that increased living standards, women's rights,
> >       education, incomes, etc. may be the fertility deciding factors.
> >       (With some correlation with IQ).
> >
> >       BillK
> >
> >       _______________________________________________
> >       extropy-chat mailing list
> >       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 02:19:42 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 18:19:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <03be0008-3ca7-0352-bf53-27ba2f935b50@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiW9DxY4YcUzgug7Dq77x+hMpU=BCgG9h8Xh7T41BirHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY2R0P75dTxxGFN2dyrvCuNt=OzM2gxsZqAmxwPLSziDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTk6humGxz+sKR_vSDqUTDb_KDqh1h8qjdAG4BV-b7oVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03be0008-3ca7-0352-bf53-27ba2f935b50@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTQU0WW9NkGm_YWjNafxCwJnxrajM-6qVvET_M6Tfj20w@mail.gmail.com>

IQ is supposed to be a relative measure - relative to other people at the
time the measurement was taken.  IQs in 1980 do not correlate 1-to-1 to IQs
in 2000; those who score 100 in newer tests will, almost without exception,
score better than 100 if they are given decades-old versions of the test.

So it would be accurate to say that the same measured intelligence is
reflected by a lower score in more recent years.  This does not mean there
is less intelligence.

On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 4:30?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I heard or read somewhere that some are arguing that IQ overall is
> dropping. On ther other hand... is it "IQ" or is it just education in
> general which means that IQ might just as well be unchanged, it is how we
> use our hardware that is dropping and not the capacity of the hardware
> itself.
>
> Another factor might be a decrease in religiousness? Many
> "formal" religions encourage children and family values, and when that is
> replaced by eclectic and personal religion, or atheism/agnosticism (which
> I have experienced in greater nr when it comes to (in my opinion) high IQ
> people) that would be another factor (among the others) pushing down the
> nr of children.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > If we're lucky, a universe tiled with conscious simulations of early
> 21st century humans asking these questions.
> > If we're not so lucky, a universe tiled with hashes of jpegs of smiling
> humans.
> >
> > Evolution and selection pressures aren't in the driver's seat anymore.
> There nowhere near enough time remaining for that.
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 10:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       So my question is:  since more highly talented people have fewer
> children will the IQ in a sense go down with time?  I
> >       sometimes wonder about Jews - higher average than most (but not as
> high as people think) and their birthrate is low.
> >
> > Does it follow that talent in the general population will diminish over
> time?
> >
> > We do know that birth rate goes down when life becomes better: better
> nutrition, better access to health care, and so on.
> >
> > What's the future?  bill w
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 8:37?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 13:27, William Flynn Wallace via
> extropy-chat
> >       <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       >
> >       > When I first knew this there were no links. So for current
> opinion I asked Chat gpt3.5
> >       > Chat - high iq people have fewer kids
> >       > ChatGPT
> >       > The relationship between a person's intelligence quotient (IQ)
> and their family size is a complex and
> >       multifaceted one, and it's influenced by numerous factors
> including cultural, social, economic, and personal
> >       choices. Here are a few key points to consider:
> >       >
> >       > Educational and career aspirations: Some studies have suggested
> that individuals with higher IQs may be more
> >       likely to pursue higher education and career goals, which can
> delay the decision to have children. They may
> >       prioritize their careers and personal development before starting
> a family.
> >       >
> >       > Socioeconomic factors: Higher IQ is often associated with higher
> socioeconomic status, and individuals in higher
> >       income brackets tend to have fewer children. This could be due to
> factors like the cost of raising children and the
> >       desire to maintain a certain lifestyle.
> >       <snip>
> >       > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >       I asked Claude AI, and it agreed but pointed out that the effect is
> >       more significant for women.
> >       Claude -
> >       High-IQ women tend to have fewer children than lower-IQ women.
> >       The difference is less consistent for men.
> >       Education levels, which correlate with IQ, also predict fertility.
> >       More educated women tend to have fewer children.
> >       The association is weaker for men.
> >       ---------
> >
> >       This is implying that increased living standards, women's rights,
> >       education, incomes, etc. may be the fertility deciding factors.
> >       (With some correlation with IQ).
> >
> >       BillK
> >
> >       _______________________________________________
> >       extropy-chat mailing list
> >       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Dec 31 11:12:19 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 11:12:19 +0000
Subject: [ExI] A Paranormal Prediction
In-Reply-To: <mailman.87.1703971051.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.87.1703971051.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <45f0fb30-8e5e-4f45-b7b2-c55b42bcc5d1@zaiboc.net>


As John K Clark has been banished from this list, and I feel that his 
annual paranormal prediction is an important message for all those who 
consider themselves to be rational, I'm posting this in his place. The 
message shouldn't be necessary, but sadly, it still is, for the 
seventeenth year running:

===========================

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

=============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

=============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

=============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

=============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one 
word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.

==============

Happy New Year all.

I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in 
Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous 
prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people 
with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I 
am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say 
something about this very important and obvious part of our natural 
world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything 
interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like 
saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can 
regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly 
trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am 
confident my prediction is true because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad 
Duntoldme spoke to me about it in a dream.

PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year 
from today.

 ??? John K Clark
===========================

Ben


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 15:45:00 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 09:45:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTQU0WW9NkGm_YWjNafxCwJnxrajM-6qVvET_M6Tfj20w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaSCMdeUf4H09gs+f8f_mKxPjwJdhZyyCy2eshs__5Hag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2f0bcb84-8790-972f-6bda-bc6a31ee0f3a@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbeSUjYpqVaUTCDeBRETscWuL-ns8Riu=1+hvSSfgn-pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiW9DxY4YcUzgug7Dq77x+hMpU=BCgG9h8Xh7T41BirHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY2R0P75dTxxGFN2dyrvCuNt=OzM2gxsZqAmxwPLSziDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTk6humGxz+sKR_vSDqUTDb_KDqh1h8qjdAG4BV-b7oVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03be0008-3ca7-0352-bf53-27ba2f935b50@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNTQU0WW9NkGm_YWjNafxCwJnxrajM-6qVvET_M6Tfj20w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb+KQD2Q87aJsiLNnFSz4cwOkN87oSoj6Q9OO8S-Am2yQ@mail.gmail.com>

Three ways of calculating IQ:  compare the raw score to those in the same
age group; compare the raw score to the general population data; compare to
those who are young adults. The IQ will go down each time.    bill w


On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 8:21?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> IQ is supposed to be a relative measure - relative to other people at the
> time the measurement was taken.  IQs in 1980 do not correlate 1-to-1 to IQs
> in 2000; those who score 100 in newer tests will, almost without exception,
> score better than 100 if they are given decades-old versions of the test.
>
> So it would be accurate to say that the same measured intelligence is
> reflected by a lower score in more recent years.  This does not mean there
> is less intelligence.
>
> On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 4:30?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I heard or read somewhere that some are arguing that IQ overall is
>> dropping. On ther other hand... is it "IQ" or is it just education in
>> general which means that IQ might just as well be unchanged, it is how we
>> use our hardware that is dropping and not the capacity of the hardware
>> itself.
>>
>> Another factor might be a decrease in religiousness? Many
>> "formal" religions encourage children and family values, and when that is
>> replaced by eclectic and personal religion, or atheism/agnosticism (which
>> I have experienced in greater nr when it comes to (in my opinion) high IQ
>> people) that would be another factor (among the others) pushing down the
>> nr of children.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>> > If we're lucky, a universe tiled with conscious simulations of early
>> 21st century humans asking these questions.
>> > If we're not so lucky, a universe tiled with hashes of jpegs of smiling
>> humans.
>> >
>> > Evolution and selection pressures aren't in the driver's seat anymore.
>> There nowhere near enough time remaining for that.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 10:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >       So my question is:  since more highly talented people have fewer
>> children will the IQ in a sense go down with time?  I
>> >       sometimes wonder about Jews - higher average than most (but not
>> as high as people think) and their birthrate is low.
>> >
>> > Does it follow that talent in the general population will diminish over
>> time?
>> >
>> > We do know that birth rate goes down when life becomes better: better
>> nutrition, better access to health care, and so on.
>> >
>> > What's the future?  bill w
>> >
>> > On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 8:37?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >       On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 13:27, William Flynn Wallace via
>> extropy-chat
>> >       <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >       >
>> >       > When I first knew this there were no links. So for current
>> opinion I asked Chat gpt3.5
>> >       > Chat - high iq people have fewer kids
>> >       > ChatGPT
>> >       > The relationship between a person's intelligence quotient (IQ)
>> and their family size is a complex and
>> >       multifaceted one, and it's influenced by numerous factors
>> including cultural, social, economic, and personal
>> >       choices. Here are a few key points to consider:
>> >       >
>> >       > Educational and career aspirations: Some studies have suggested
>> that individuals with higher IQs may be more
>> >       likely to pursue higher education and career goals, which can
>> delay the decision to have children. They may
>> >       prioritize their careers and personal development before starting
>> a family.
>> >       >
>> >       > Socioeconomic factors: Higher IQ is often associated with
>> higher socioeconomic status, and individuals in higher
>> >       income brackets tend to have fewer children. This could be due to
>> factors like the cost of raising children and the
>> >       desire to maintain a certain lifestyle.
>> >       <snip>
>> >       > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>> >       I asked Claude AI, and it agreed but pointed out that the effect
>> is
>> >       more significant for women.
>> >       Claude -
>> >       High-IQ women tend to have fewer children than lower-IQ women.
>> >       The difference is less consistent for men.
>> >       Education levels, which correlate with IQ, also predict fertility.
>> >       More educated women tend to have fewer children.
>> >       The association is weaker for men.
>> >       ---------
>> >
>> >       This is implying that increased living standards, women's rights,
>> >       education, incomes, etc. may be the fertility deciding factors.
>> >       (With some correlation with IQ).
>> >
>> >       BillK
>> >
>> >       _______________________________________________
>> >       extropy-chat mailing list
>> >       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 16:01:46 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 17:01:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] A Paranormal Prediction
In-Reply-To: <45f0fb30-8e5e-4f45-b7b2-c55b42bcc5d1@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.87.1703971051.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <45f0fb30-8e5e-4f45-b7b2-c55b42bcc5d1@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydQz_-nMn9vTXfoNURx41ZNe+kXO-_jTdhu-qy_qumFaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 2023. Dec 31., Sun at 12:13, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> As John K Clark has been banished from this list, and I feel that his
> annual paranormal prediction is an important message for all those who
> consider themselves to be rational, I'm posting this in his place.


If this is your definition of rationality, then I consider myself
irrational, and very proudly so.
And I look forward to see John?s prediction fail.
Well, actually, John?s prediction will not literally fail, because psi
breakthroughs will not be published in Nature and Science, which are legacy
journals that lick politically correct ass. But they will be published
elsewhere.

The
> message shouldn't be necessary, but sadly, it still is, for the
> seventeenth year running:
>
> ===========================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> =============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> =============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> =============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> =============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> Happy New Year all.
>
> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in
> Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous
> prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people
> with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I
> am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say
> something about this very important and obvious part of our natural
> world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything
> interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like
> saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can
> regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly
> trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am
> confident my prediction is true because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad
> Duntoldme spoke to me about it in a dream.
>
> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
> from today.
>
>      John K Clark
> ===========================
>
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 16:43:02 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:43:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] A Paranormal Prediction
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydQz_-nMn9vTXfoNURx41ZNe+kXO-_jTdhu-qy_qumFaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.87.1703971051.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <45f0fb30-8e5e-4f45-b7b2-c55b42bcc5d1@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJydQz_-nMn9vTXfoNURx41ZNe+kXO-_jTdhu-qy_qumFaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSgKY5gJUjmOjqAX8ckR2zFcECbWtJCvtt9xSW7Weh4xg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 31, 2023, 8:03 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 2023. Dec 31., Sun at 12:13, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> As John K Clark has been banished from this list, and I feel that his
>> annual paranormal prediction is an important message for all those who
>> consider themselves to be rational, I'm posting this in his place.
>
>
> If this is your definition of rationality, then I consider myself
> irrational, and very proudly so.
> And I look forward to see John?s prediction fail.
> Well, actually, John?s prediction will not literally fail, because psi
> breakthroughs will not be published in Nature and Science, which are legacy
> journals that lick politically correct ass. But they will be published
> elsewhere.
>

If there was scientifically rigorous evidence of psi, Nature or Science
might publish it.  I do recall Science publishing what might be called
"technopsi" this year - neural tissue fused with silicon to achieve results
that neural tissue alone could not - though there was nothing supernatural
about it.  Likewise there have been social and cognitive studies published
where, if one just voted the results without noting the science of how they
came to be, some might believe they were psi - but with the curtain pulled
back, they are not generally called psi.

I foresee this post chain continuing on December 31st, 2024.  Am I
therefore psychic?

>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 16:43:35 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 16:43:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Reverse Flynn Effect - Blame Smartphones!
Message-ID: <CAL_armhQmadwUvFrf-qfLS_tr435j8xiPwaMXogRKhs=7j0AYw@mail.gmail.com>

The Atlantic

It Sure Looks Like Phones Are Making Students Dumber
Opinion by Derek Thompson  ?  19 Dec 2023

<https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/it-sure-looks-like-phones-are-making-students-dumber/ar-AA1lIX7i>

Quotes:
For the past few years, parents, researchers, and the news media have
paid closer attention to the relationship between teenagers? phone use
and their mental health. Researchers such as Jonathan Haidt and Jean
Twenge have shown that various measures of student well-being began a
sharp decline around 2012 throughout the West, just as smartphones and
social media emerged as the attentional centerpiece of teenage life.
Some have even suggested that smartphone use is so corrosive, it?s
systematically reducing student achievement. I hadn?t quite believed
that last argument?until now.

The deeper, most interesting story is that test scores have been
falling for years?even before the pandemic. Across the OECD, science
scores peaked in 2009, and reading scores peaked in 2012. Since then,
developed countries have as a whole performed ?increasingly poorly? on
average. ?No single country showed an increasingly positive trend in
any subject,? PISA reported, and ?many countries showed increasingly
poor performance in at least one subject.? Even in famously
high-performing countries, such as Finland, Sweden, and South Korea,
PISA grades in one or several subjects have been declining for a
while.
--------------------

Although this report refers to students, smartphone use is now endemic
throughout the whole population. So the IQ declines affect the entire
population of developed nations.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 16:58:13 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 10:58:13 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Reverse Flynn Effect - Blame Smartphones!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhQmadwUvFrf-qfLS_tr435j8xiPwaMXogRKhs=7j0AYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhQmadwUvFrf-qfLS_tr435j8xiPwaMXogRKhs=7j0AYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZznMmP-yW6ddPJ-Aqw809GJgrZDMCeXRXC-f8qokC85A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 31, 2023 at 10:46?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The Atlantic
>
> It Sure Looks Like Phones Are Making Students Dumber
> Opinion by Derek Thompson  ?  19 Dec 2023
>
> <
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/it-sure-looks-like-phones-are-making-students-dumber/ar-AA1lIX7i
> >
>
> Quotes:
> For the past few years, parents, researchers, and the news media have
> paid closer attention to the relationship between teenagers? phone use
> and their mental health. Researchers such as Jonathan Haidt and Jean
> Twenge have shown that various measures of student well-being began a
> sharp decline around 2012 throughout the West, just as smartphones and
> social media emerged as the attentional centerpiece of teenage life.
> Some have even suggested that smartphone use is so corrosive, it?s
> systematically reducing student achievement. I hadn?t quite believed
> that last argument?until now.
>
> The deeper, most interesting story is that test scores have been
> falling for years?even before the pandemic. Across the OECD, science
> scores peaked in 2009, and reading scores peaked in 2012. Since then,
> developed countries have as a whole performed ?increasingly poorly? on
> average. ?No single country showed an increasingly positive trend in
> any subject,? PISA reported, and ?many countries showed increasingly
> poor performance in at least one subject.? Even in famously
> high-performing countries, such as Finland, Sweden, and South Korea,
> PISA grades in one or several subjects have been declining for a
> while.
> --------------------
>
> Although this report refers to students, smartphone use is now endemic
> throughout the whole population. So the IQ declines affect the entire
> population of developed nations.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 31 17:02:19 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 11:02:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] A Paranormal Prediction
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSgKY5gJUjmOjqAX8ckR2zFcECbWtJCvtt9xSW7Weh4xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.87.1703971051.606.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <45f0fb30-8e5e-4f45-b7b2-c55b42bcc5d1@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJydQz_-nMn9vTXfoNURx41ZNe+kXO-_jTdhu-qy_qumFaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSgKY5gJUjmOjqAX8ckR2zFcECbWtJCvtt9xSW7Weh4xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEauXUDYQf0poXETyXr=fJ8uG05nPjatKsuUKsz3ce3rcA@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry - you have confounding here.  Cell phone use and any other variable
you choose to correlate it with are confounded by all the other stuff that
has happened in those years.  Watch for assuming correlation means
causation bias.

On the same note, violent crime is down.  Watch for all the theories to
account for it.  All will be subject to confounding.  bill w

On Sun, Dec 31, 2023 at 10:45?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 31, 2023, 8:03 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2023. Dec 31., Sun at 12:13, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> As John K Clark has been banished from this list, and I feel that his
>>> annual paranormal prediction is an important message for all those who
>>> consider themselves to be rational, I'm posting this in his place.
>>
>>
>> If this is your definition of rationality, then I consider myself
>> irrational, and very proudly so.
>> And I look forward to see John?s prediction fail.
>> Well, actually, John?s prediction will not literally fail, because psi
>> breakthroughs will not be published in Nature and Science, which are legacy
>> journals that lick politically correct ass. But they will be published
>> elsewhere.
>>
>
> If there was scientifically rigorous evidence of psi, Nature or Science
> might publish it.  I do recall Science publishing what might be called
> "technopsi" this year - neural tissue fused with silicon to achieve results
> that neural tissue alone could not - though there was nothing supernatural
> about it.  Likewise there have been social and cognitive studies published
> where, if one just voted the results without noting the science of how they
> came to be, some might believe they were psi - but with the curtain pulled
> back, they are not generally called psi.
>
> I foresee this post chain continuing on December 31st, 2024.  Am I
> therefore psychic?
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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