[ExI] More thoughts on sentient computers

Sat Feb 25 21:45:21 UTC 2023

Re all those images you sent:  having seen decades of covers of scifi
books, most of them are not very creative - that is,they leave bored.

Value selector - expand please.  If by permutation you mean just changes
from art images of the past, then OK.  bill w

On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 2:07 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 11:55 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Now Jason, I do not pretend to have a good answer to what is creative,
>> but just being different doesn't seem to me to be sufficient.
>>
>> An AI can gather what has been done, perhaps even weighted by how we
>> humans rate the things (Leonardo is superior to a chimp), and put together
>> something that combines what has been done but in a new way.
>>
>
> Permutation
>
>
>   An infinity of art could be created this way.
>>
>> My personal definition of great art - I like it.  Same for food, music,
>> colors, animals, etc.  Why should I say something is great or even good if
>> I don't like it?  I cannot impose my standards on anyone else.  They get to
>> define greatness for themselves.
>>
>
> A value selector
>
>
>> If enough people think something is great, it will last far longer than
>> the artists' lives.  Homer, anyone?
>>
>> ("You like it?  That's the best you can do?"   Yes.)
>>
>> bill w
>>
>
> Would you say then that creativity can be accomplished by the combination
> of:
>
> permutation + a value selector ?
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 9:27 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 8:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Big art prize in Britain went to a person who turned the lights off and
>>>> then back on in a museum.  This is art?  ;You can do anything to a canvas
>>>> or wood or stone and someone will find value in it and some will call it
>>>> art.
>>>>
>>>> I think we cannot conclude anything from that except that calling
>>>> something art could include the whole universe with God the Creator.
>>>>
>>>> So as a matter of calling something creative I think we have to have
>>>> some standards.  Really, really bad art is still art but the level of
>>>> creativity is in question.  An AI winning an art contest is in the same
>>>> category as those prizes won by chimps and elephants.  Let's define
>>>> creativity a bit more strictly, shall we?   bill w
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Do you find anything on this webpage creative?
>>>
>>> https://www.midjourney.com/showcase/recent/
>>>
>>> Would you say none of them were creative if all of them were created by
>>> human artists?
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 3:08 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2023, 11:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We don't understand creativity and thus cannot program it into our
>>>>>> computers.  But that is what gives humans the flexibility the computers
>>>>>> lack.  A computer has to go with probability - humans don't (and anyway are
>>>>>> not very good at it at all).  So wayout solutions, the vast majority of
>>>>>> which don't work or backfire, do happen, improbably.  We want instant
>>>>>> answers from computers, while humans find solutions that took many decades
>>>>>> or centuries to discover, and perhaps were always counterintuitive (aka
>>>>>> crazy).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bill w.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would argue that is no longer the case, given the advances I
>>>>> describe here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://alwaysasking.com/when-will-ai-take-over/#Creative_abilities_of_AI
>>>>>
>>>>> This article is a few years out of date, modern AI is vastly superior
>>>>> at creating art now compared to the examples available at the time of my
>>>>> writing. One AI generated art image won a competition (competing against
>>>>> human artists).
>>>>>
>>>>> I would say creativity is just permutation plus a value selector. In
>>>>> this sense, we have had creative algorithms for decades (e.g., genetic
>>>>> programming / genetic algorithms).
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 10:07 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 23:50, bill w wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > another question:  why do we, or they, or somebody, think that an
>>>>>>> AI has to be conscious to solve the problems we have?  Our unconscious mind
>>>>>>> solves most of our problems now, doesn't it?  I think it does.  bill w
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's a good question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (If our unconscious solves most of our problems now, it's not doing
>>>>>>> a very good job, judging by the state of the world!)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Short answer: We don't yet know if consciousness is necessary for
>>>>>>> solving certain problems. Or even any problems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Longer answer: I suspect it is necessary for some things, but have
>>>>>>> no proof, other than the circumstantial evidence of evolution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Consciousness evolved, and we know that evolution rapidly eliminates
>>>>>>> features that don't contribute to reproductive fitness, especially if they
>>>>>>> have a cost. Consciousness almost certainly has quite a big cost. This
>>>>>>> suggests that it's necessary for solving at least some of the problems that
>>>>>>> we've met over the last 300 000 years (or at least for *something*
>>>>>>> that's useful), or we wouldn't have developed it in the first place. Or if
>>>>>>> it happened by accident, and wasn't good for survival, we'd have lost it.
>>>>>>> So we can conclude at the very least that consciousness has been good for
>>>>>>> our survival, even if we don't know how.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It strikes me as noteworthy that the kinds of things that our
>>>>>>> computers can do well, we do poorly (playing chess, mathematics,
>>>>>>> statistical reasoning, etc.), and some things that we have evolved to do
>>>>>>> well, our computers do poorly, or can't do at all (hunting and gathering,
>>>>>>> making canoes, avoiding hungry lions, making sharp sticks, etc.). Perhaps
>>>>>>> consciousness is the (or a) missing ingredient for being able to do those
>>>>>>> things. Yes, arms and legs are an obvious advantage, but many other animals
>>>>>>> with arms and legs never developed like we did.
>>>>>>> As the former things tend to be abstract mental things, and the
>>>>>>> latter tend to be highly-co-ordinated, complex physical things, maybe
>>>>>>> consciousness has a lot to do with embodiment, and manipulating the
>>>>>>> external world in complex ways successfully. Maybe Big Dog is closer to
>>>>>>> consciousness than ChatGPT (or, more likely, needs it more).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If Big Dog (or whatever the latest iteration of it is called) had
>>>>>>> ChatGPT in its head, as well as all the other stuff it already has, would
>>>>>>> it be able to build a canoe and use it to escape from a forest fire, decide
>>>>>>> where it was safe to stop, and built a hut? That would be an interesting
>>>>>>> experiment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ben
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