[ExI] More thoughts on sentient computers

[William Flynn Wallace]

. They will on the fly be able to generate new Beatles albums, Kubrick
films, and George R.R. Martin sagas.

Jason Now just how creative are those?  There are musicians are Harvard,
for one, that can write Baroque music as well as Handel ever did, but
that's been done, and extremely well.  There is, of course, some creativity
in re-makes, and I am sure AIs wil be able to create art of all kinds some
of which we will find pleasing.  But the criteria have to be whether humans
like them.

'Not just some re-hash of what's been done before, but truly something new
under the sun."  That will take real creativity.  Not just new, but good.
Not everything is an offshoot of something in the past.   bill w

On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 1:37 PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2023, 2:08 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There's no standard, it's situational.
>>
>> Say you had a process searching for new drug compounds. A standard would
>> be how effective the drug was.
>>
>> If you had  a process evolving artificial life z the standard would be
>> how for the life form is in surviving and thriving.
>>
>> fine - but now you are not talking about art - bill w
>>
>
>
> We were talking more generally about creativity.
>
> Aesthetics and art are just one branch of the creative domains. And
> machines have already demonstrated at least some capacity in all creative
> human domains: game playing, storytelling, comedy, music, art, invention,
> etc.
>
> There's nothing uniquely human about creativity. Should these trends
> continue much longer, they will soon surpass us in all our creative
> capacities. They will on the fly be able to generate new Beatles albums,
> Kubrick films, and George R.R. Martin sagas.
>
> Jason
>
>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 9:48 AM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2023, 10:36 AM William Flynn Wallace <
>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Value - who gets to decide the standards?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There's no standard, it's situational.
>>>
>>> Say you had a process searching for new drug compounds. A standard would
>>> be how effective the drug was.
>>>
>>> If you had an a process evolving artificial life z the standard would be
>>> how for the life form is in surviving and thriving.
>>>
>>> Many art generating AIs are trained on which patterns are expected to be
>>> most liked by humans.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Art critics will endlessly argue about every artist that ever lived.
>>>> Music ditto.  LIterature ditto.
>>>>
>>>> It's all qualitative and subject to opinions, which will naturally
>>>> change over time with deaths and births and world events etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>> I have read more than one book on aesthetics and that is why I have
>>>> given up on philosophers and critics and decided on "I like it- I don't
>>>> like it" as my personal evaluator.  bill w
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree aesthetic appreciation is subjective, but that art is be subject
>>> doesn't undermine my claim they we understand how to engineer creative
>>> systems.
>>>
>>> As long as we have a way to select something of value to at least one
>>> subject, or for at least one purpose, that's sufficient. It's not possible
>>> to please everyone so that shouldn't be a goal.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 4:27 PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 4:46 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Re all those images you sent:  having seen decades of covers of scifi
>>>>>> books, most of them are not very creative - that is,they leave bored.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Value selector - expand please.  If by permutation you mean just
>>>>>> changes from art images of the past, then OK.  bill w
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> By permutation I mean modification, combination, mutation,
>>>>> randomization, generation, etc. Anything that makes new examples or novelty
>>>>> (which may then be evaluated for their value.)
>>>>>
>>>>> By value selector I mean any function that assesses value of a
>>>>> generated permutation, by judging each ones's fitness, utility, aesthetics,
>>>>> suitability, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Putting these two processes together yields an algorithm for
>>>>> creativity. It will generate novel examples, and then filter them such they
>>>>> only those judged to be of sufficient value will be output.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 2:07 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 11:55 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now Jason, I do not pretend to have a good answer to what is
>>>>>>>> creative, but just being different doesn't seem to me to be sufficient.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An AI can gather what has been done, perhaps even weighted by how
>>>>>>>> we humans rate the things (Leonardo is superior to a chimp), and put
>>>>>>>> together something that combines what has been done but in a new way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Permutation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   An infinity of art could be created this way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My personal definition of great art - I like it.  Same for food,
>>>>>>>> music, colors, animals, etc.  Why should I say something is great or even
>>>>>>>> good if I don't like it?  I cannot impose my standards on anyone else.
>>>>>>>> They get to define greatness for themselves.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A value selector
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If enough people think something is great, it will last far longer
>>>>>>>> than the artists' lives.  Homer, anyone?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ("You like it?  That's the best you can do?"   Yes.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would you say then that creativity can be accomplished by the
>>>>>>> combination of:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> permutation + a value selector ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 9:27 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 8:41 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Big art prize in Britain went to a person who turned the lights
>>>>>>>>>> off and then back on in a museum.  This is art?  ;You can do anything to a
>>>>>>>>>> canvas or wood or stone and someone will find value in it and some will
>>>>>>>>>> call it art.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think we cannot conclude anything from that except that calling
>>>>>>>>>> something art could include the whole universe with God the Creator.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So as a matter of calling something creative I think we have to
>>>>>>>>>> have some standards.  Really, really bad art is still art but the level of
>>>>>>>>>> creativity is in question.  An AI winning an art contest is in the same
>>>>>>>>>> category as those prizes won by chimps and elephants.  Let's define
>>>>>>>>>> creativity a bit more strictly, shall we?   bill w
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you find anything on this webpage creative?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.midjourney.com/showcase/recent/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Would you say none of them were creative if all of them were
>>>>>>>>> created by human artists?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 3:08 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2023, 11:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We don't understand creativity and thus cannot program it into
>>>>>>>>>>>> our computers.  But that is what gives humans the flexibility the computers
>>>>>>>>>>>> lack.  A computer has to go with probability - humans don't (and anyway are
>>>>>>>>>>>> not very good at it at all).  So wayout solutions, the vast majority of
>>>>>>>>>>>> which don't work or backfire, do happen, improbably.  We want instant
>>>>>>>>>>>> answers from computers, while humans find solutions that took many decades
>>>>>>>>>>>> or centuries to discover, and perhaps were always counterintuitive (aka
>>>>>>>>>>>> crazy).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> bill w.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I would argue that is no longer the case, given the advances I
>>>>>>>>>>> describe here:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://alwaysasking.com/when-will-ai-take-over/#Creative_abilities_of_AI
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This article is a few years out of date, modern AI is vastly
>>>>>>>>>>> superior at creating art now compared to the examples available at the time
>>>>>>>>>>> of my writing. One AI generated art image won a competition (competing
>>>>>>>>>>> against human artists).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I would say creativity is just permutation plus a value
>>>>>>>>>>> selector. In this sense, we have had creative algorithms for decades (e.g.,
>>>>>>>>>>> genetic programming / genetic algorithms).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 10:07 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 23:50, bill w wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > another question:  why do we, or they, or somebody, think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that an AI has to be conscious to solve the problems we have?  Our
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unconscious mind solves most of our problems now, doesn't it?  I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> does.  bill w
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's a good question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (If our unconscious solves most of our problems now, it's not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing a very good job, judging by the state of the world!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer: We don't yet know if consciousness is necessary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for solving certain problems. Or even any problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Longer answer: I suspect it is necessary for some things, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have no proof, other than the circumstantial evidence of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Consciousness evolved, and we know that evolution rapidly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eliminates features that don't contribute to reproductive fitness,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially if they have a cost. Consciousness almost certainly has quite a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> big cost. This suggests that it's necessary for solving at least some of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the problems that we've met over the last 300 000 years (or at least for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *something* that's useful), or we wouldn't have developed it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the first place. Or if it happened by accident, and wasn't good for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> survival, we'd have lost it. So we can conclude at the very least that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness has been good for our survival, even if we don't know how.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It strikes me as noteworthy that the kinds of things that our
>>>>>>>>>>>>> computers can do well, we do poorly (playing chess, mathematics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> statistical reasoning, etc.), and some things that we have evolved to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well, our computers do poorly, or can't do at all (hunting and gathering,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> making canoes, avoiding hungry lions, making sharp sticks, etc.). Perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness is the (or a) missing ingredient for being able to do those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things. Yes, arms and legs are an obvious advantage, but many other animals
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with arms and legs never developed like we did.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As the former things tend to be abstract mental things, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the latter tend to be highly-co-ordinated, complex physical things, maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness has a lot to do with embodiment, and manipulating the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> external world in complex ways successfully. Maybe Big Dog is closer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness than ChatGPT (or, more likely, needs it more).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Big Dog (or whatever the latest iteration of it is called)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had ChatGPT in its head, as well as all the other stuff it already has,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would it be able to build a canoe and use it to escape from a forest fire,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> decide where it was safe to stop, and built a hut? That would be an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting experiment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20230226/63c116fd/attachment.htm>